A iustification of separation from the Church of England Against Mr Richard Bernard his invective, intituled; The separatists schisme. By Iohn Robinson.

Of the Authours Advertisements , called by him Christian , & counsels of peace .

THe subiect whereof Mr Bern. treats in this place ( being peace ) is very plausible , the name amiable , the thing both pleasant and profitable . And as † † 2. Cor. 13 ● Thes. 5. 13 God is the God of peace , so are not they Gods children , nor borne of him , which desire it not ; yea even in the middest of their contentions .

But as all vices vse to cloth themselves with the habites of vertues , that vnder those liveries they may get countenance and finde the more free passage in the world , so especially in the Church all tyranny and confusion do present themselves vnder this colour , taking vp the politick pretence of peace , as a weapon of mere advantage wherewith the stronger , and greater party vseth to beat the weaker . The Papists presse the protestants with the peace of the Church and for the rent which they have made in it , condemn them beyond the heathenish souldiours , which forbare to devide Christs garment ; as deeply do the Bishops charge the Ministers refusing conformity and subscription , and both of them vs . But the godly wise must not be affrighted eyther from seeking or embracing the truth with such buggs as these are , but seeing † † Iam. 3. 17. the wisdome which is from above , is first pure , then peaceable , he must make it a great part of his Christian wisdome to discerne betwixt godly and gratious peace , and that which is eyther pretended for advantage , or mistaken by error , & so to labor to hold peace in purity . Let it then be manifested vnto vs that the Communion which the Church of England hath with all the wicked in the Land , without separation , is a pure communion , that theyr service book devised and prescribed in so many words and letters to be read over and over with all the appurtenances , is a pure worship , that their goverment by Nationall Provinciall and diocesan Bishops according to their Canons , is a pure goverment , & then let vs be blamed if we hold not peace with them in word & deed ; otherwise though they spake vnto vs never so oft both by messengers and mouth of peace , and agayn of peace , * as Iehoram did to Iehu , yet must 2 King . 9. we answer them in effect , as Iehu did Iehoram , what peace whilest the whoredoms of the mother of fornications the Iezebel of Rome do remayn in so great number amongst them ?

And I doubt not but Mr Bern. and 1000 more Ministers in the land , ( were they secure of the Magistrates sword , and might they go on with his good licence ) would wholly shake of their canonicall obedience to their Ordinaries , and neglect their citations and censures and refuse to sue in their Courts , for all the peace of the Church which they commend to vs for so sacred a thing . Could they but obteyn license from the Magistrate to vse the libertie which they are perswaded Christ hath given them , they would soon shake off the Prelates yoke , and draw no longer vnder the same in spirituall communion with all the profane in the land , but would break those bonds of iniquitie , as easily as Sampson did the cordes wherwith Dalilah tyed him , and give good reasons also from the word of God for their so doing . And yet the approbation of men and angels , makes the wayes of God & workes of religion never a whit the more lawfull , but onely the more free from bodily daunger . Wherevpon we ( the weakest of all others ) have been perswaded to embrace this truth of our Lord Iesus Christ , though in great and manifold afflictions , & to hold out his testimony as we do , though without approbation of our Sovereigne , knowing that as his approbation in such points of Gods worship , as his word warranteth not , cannot make them lawful ; so neyther can his disallowance make unlawful such duties of religion , as the word of God approveth , nor can he give dispensation to any person to forbeare the fame , Dan ▪ 3. 18. Act. 5. 29.

These things I thought good to commend to the reader that he may be the more cautelous of this and the like colourable pretences , wishing him also wel to remember , that peace in disobedience is that old theam of the false Prophets , whereby they flattered the mighty , and deceaved the simple , Ier. 6. 14. & 8. 11.

Let us now come to consideration of the counsels themselves so fr●ndly given , and so sagely set downe . And therein to approve what is good and wholsome , to interpret in the best sense what is doubtful , and to passe by unrequited such contumelies as wherewith Mr B. reprocheth vs , as in all places , so here in his rhyming Rhetorick , wherein he labours to rowl ●s even as may be , betwixt the Atheisticall Securitant , and Anabaptisticall Puritant , the carelesse Conformitant , and th● preposterous Reformitant , and so forth , Rules for peace . as the rhyme runneth , I wil come to those ten Rules or Canons praescribed by him , pag. 3. 4. 5. for the praeservation of peace in the Church or state ecclesiasticall , for that alone we oppose , humbling our selves vnder the hand of the Magistrate as much , and more truely then himself .

1. Uphold the manifest good therein . Mr Ber.

A man vpholds that which is good most naturally , by his personal Answ. practise of it , and actual communion in it : & thus we ought to mainteyn every good thing in our places , if sinn ly not in the way betwixt vs and it . But since by the confusion which is vpon the face of the earth , good & evil are ought times so intermingled , as that men cannot touch that which is good , but some evil wil cleave unto their fingers , when this so falls out , then have we a dispensation from the Lord to forbeare even that good which without syn can not be practised . Rom. 3. 8. And yet then also wee must acknowledge that good thing to be as it is , in what person or estate soever , and so vphold it .

And lastly so far as possibly we can we must sever and select the good from the evil , & so even in our practise also vphold & mainteyn that good being so severed , whereof whilest it was commingled with the evil , we could have no lawful vse .

And all these wayes we vphold whatsoever manifest good we know in the Church of England : whether doctrine , ordinance , or personall grace , to our vtmost .

We do acknowledge in it many excellent truthes of doctrine , which we also teach without commixture of error , many Christian ordinances which we also practise being purged from the pollution of Antichrist , and for the godly persons in it ( could we possibly separate them from the prophane ) we would gladly embrace them with both armes .

But being taught by the Apostle speaking but of one wicked person , and of one Iewish ordinance † † 1 Cor. 5. 6 Gal. 5. 2. 9. that a little leven leveneth the whol lump , we cannot be ignorant how sour the English Assemblies must needs be : neither may we justly be blamed though we dare not dip in their meal , least we be soured by their leven .

The second and third Rules follow , which for order-sake I will invert , setting the latter in the former place .

2. Beare with lighter faultes for a time , til fit occasion be offred to Mr. B●rn . have them amended .

1. No sinn is light in it selfe , but being continued in , and countenanced Answ. destroyeth the sinner . Matth. 5. 19. 2. It is the property of a prophane and hardened heart evermore to extenuate and lessen sinns . 3. Though the bearing and forbearing not onely of smal but even of great sinns also must be for at tyme , yet it must be but for a tyme , and that is whilest reformation be orderly sought , and procured , Lev. 19. 17. But what tyme hath wrought in the Church of England all men see , growing dayly by the iust iudgment of God , from evill to worse , and being never afore tyme so impatient eyther of reformation , or other good , as at this day . 4. A man must so bear an evill , as he be no way accessary vnto it , by forbearing any means appoynted by Christ for the amending it .

3. The manifest evil , labour in thy place by the best ●●anes to have Mr. Bern. them amended peaceably .

This is not sufficient , nor enough , except our places be such and Answ. we in such Churches , as wherein we may vse the ordinary meanes Christ hath left for the amendement of things : otherwise our places and standing themselves are vnwarrantable , and must be forsaken . And this I desire may be well considered by all such whether Ministers or people , as know and acknowledge that Christ requireth of them further duties for the amendement of evils , then their very places will give them libertie to performe .

The fourth & fifth and sixth Canon may be receaved with out daunger , the seventh not so .

7. Let the corruption of the person , and his lawfull place be distinguished : Mr. Ber● and where person and places are not so lawfull , and in the proposed end not agaynst thee , wisely labour to make them for thee : and make that good of the● thou canst , and wholly condemn not that Ministery which a godly man may make for good .

We may not communicate at all in that Ministery which is Ans. excercised by an vnlawfull person or in an vnlawfull place , though God may bring good out of it , least we do evil that good may come thereof , which is damnable . Rom. 3. 8.

And if that be true which the most forward professe & do hold , that the approbation and acceptation of the people gives being to the Ministery , it concerns the people carefully to see vnto it , that they accept not of , nor communicate with any vnlawfull person in an vnlawfull place , least thereby they set vp , or give being vnto his Ministery , and so be deep in his transgression .

The eight and ninth rule , I passe over as being without exception . Onely I see not vpon what occasion the authour should thus disorderly shuffle into this controversy ( which is merely ecclesiasticall ) such considerations as in the former of these two rules and in many other places he doth concerning the frame and alteration of civill states , except he would eyther insinuate agaynst vs that we went about to alter the civill state of the kingdom ; or at least , that the alteration of the state ecclesiastical , must needs drawe with it , the alteration of the civil state ; with which ●●te the Prelates have a long tyme bleared the eyes of the Magistrates . But how deceiptfully , hath been sufficiently manifested , and offer made further The Assertion . to manifest the same by solemn disputation .

And the truth is , that all states and pollicies which are of God , Christia● offer . whether Monarchycall , Aristocraticall or Democraticall , or how mixt soever , are capable of Christs goverment . Neyther doth the nature of the state , but the corruption of the persons hinder the same in one or other .

10. Refuse not to obey authority in any thing wherein there is not t● Mr B. thee manifestly known a sinn to be committed agaynst God : let fantasyes passe : be more loath to offend a lawfull Magistrate , then many private persons . Where thou canst not yeeld , there humbly crave pardon ; where thou canst not be tolerated , be content with correction for safety of conscience .

Authority indeed is to be obeyed in all things ; if they be good , Ans. actively , and by doing them , if evill and vnlawfull , passively and by suffering with meeknes for righteousnes sake : if pardon cannot be obteyned , as is well advised . But where counsell is given to ob●y in any thing whrein a manifest known sinne is not committed agaynst God , this morsell must not be swallowed downe till it be well chewed .

For a man may commit a sinne agaynst God , in doing a thing wherein there is no sinne . The sinne may be in the person doing , & not in the thing done : as when a man doth a good thing against his conscience or doubtingly , and without fayth . 1 Iohn . 3. 20. Rom. 14. 23.

And where Mr. Bern. further adviseth rather to offend many private persons then one lawful Magistrate , I doubt not he gives no worse counsayle then he himself followes , who ( except I be much deceaved in him ) had rather offend half the private persons in the diocesse , then one Arch-bishop though he be an vnlawfull Magistrate .

But of the case of offence hereafter . In the meane whyle , let vs remember our care be not to offend the Lord , and if with the offence of a private person ( though never so base ) be joyned the offence of the Lord , better offend all the both lawfull and vnlawfull Magistrates in the world , then such a little one . Mat. 18. 6.

Lastly where Mr. Ber. concludes this decade of counsayl with that which is written Rom. 14. 17. 18. he misinterprets the Apostles words if he put them down ( as it seems he doth ) for a reason of that which goes before . For the Apostles in that place hath no reference at all to the authority of the Magistrate , whose kingdome indeed doth stand in meate and drinke and the like bodily things , wherin he may command civilly , & is to be obeyed in the Lord : but the Apostles purpose is to admonish the strong in fayth to take heed of abusing theyr Christian liberty in the vnseasōable vse of meats & drinks & the like ( to the offence of the weak brethren ) as though the kingdom of God stood in the peremptory vse of those things , & that they were therein to shew the libertie of the gospel .

Furthermore howsoever the kingdome of God be not meat & drink , yet is the kingdom of God much advanced or hindred both in a mans self and in others , in the seasonable or vnseasonable vse of them . A man in vsing them ( or rather abusing them ) with offence to a weak brother , may destroy both him , and himself also in breaking the law of charity . Rom. 14. 15. 20.

It remaynes now we come to the second rank of counsayls , as they are devided by the authour , for what cause I know not , neyther wil I curiously enquire . but wil take them as I find them .

1. Omit no evident and certayn commandement imposed of God . Mr Ber. If there be nothing but probabilitie of sinning in obeying the precepts of men , s●t not opinion before iudgement .

Wofull counsel , God knoweth , and in deed such as directs a Answ. course to harden the heart of him that followes it in all impiety . For he that wil at the first do that by mans precept , which is like or which he thinks to be sinne ; wil in time do that vpon the like regard which he knowes to be sinne : and so fall into all presumption against God . Men are rather to be admonished ( especially in the case of religion about which wee deale ) that if the Lord shall touch their tender harts with fear and iealousy of the things they do , they rather suspend in doubtful things , ( except they can in some measure overcome their doubting by faith , ) till in the use of all good meanes , the God of wisdome and father of lights give to discern more plainly of things that differ , least being head-strong & hard-mouthed against the check of conscience , which the Lord like a bit puts into their mouthes , they provoke the Highest to withdraw his hand , & to lay the reyn on their necks , & so they even run head long vpon those evils without fear , upon which at the first they have adventured with feareful & troubled consciences , which is oft times the iust recompence of such errours from the Lord . Rom. 1. 27. 28.

2. Let ancient probabilitie of truth be praeferred before new conjectures Mr B. of errour against it .

As this rule shewes by what tenure Mr B. holds his religion , Ans. namely , by probabilities & likelihoods of truth ; so if he mean that this way ( wherein we by Gods mercy walk ) is any new way , or our rules conjectures , I do hope ( by the good hand of God herein assisting me ) to make it manifest , that this way is † † Ier. 6. 16. that old and good way , after which all men ought to ask and to walk therein , that so they may find rest vnto their souls . And that we are not guided in it by conjectures neyther goe by guesses , but by the infallible rule of Christs Testament .

3. Mark and hold a difference betweene these things ; the equity of Mr B. law and exequution : between established truths generally , and personall errors of some : between soundnes of doctrine , and erronious application : between substance , & circumstance : the maner , & the matter : between the very being of a thing , and the wel being thereof : between worship , and conveniency : between a commaundement , and a commaundement to thee : between lawfulnes , and expediency : and between that which is given absolutely , or in some respect . Answ.

The sixt and 7. rule in the former rank ( being the same in substance ) might well have been bound vp in the same bundle with this , had not the authour labored to supply that in the number of his counsayls , which is wanting in their weight .

But to the point . There is a difference indeed to be held betwixt the lawes of the Church of England , with the ordinances and doctrines by law established , and the personall exequutions , excercises , & applications of them ; & the difference is betwixt evil , & worse : & the worse of the twayne by far I deem the lawes & ordinances with sundry of the doctrines . For though the whole cariage of the courts miscalled-spirituall , be most corrupt , & abhominable , and though the pulpits be made by very many ( especially in the greatest places ( the stages of vanity , falsehood , and slaunder , so that as the Prophet sayd , * * Mich. 1. 5. what is the wickednes of Iacob ? Is not Samaria ? And what ar the high places of Iuda ? Is not Ierusalem ? so may we say what is the sink of all brybery , and extortion ? Is not the Consistory ? What is the theater of carnall vanity ? Is not the pulpit ? Yet in truth the the lawes are worse then those which exequute them , and the ordinances by them established then those which minister them .

Let but the last Canons ( which are as well the lawes and doctrine of the Church of England , as the Canons of the counsel of Trent are the lawes and doctrine of the Church of Rome ) be severely and sincerely exequuted as becomes the lawes of the kingdom of Christ , the Church all in the land having any feare of God , would fynd and complayne that their bondage were increased , as was the bondage of the Israelites vnder the Egyptians . Exo. 5.

But what though there were neyther Statute nor Canon law enacted , for the confusion in the assemblyes collected and consisting of all the parish inhabitants , be they Atheists , adulterers , blasphemers and how evill not ? what though no law ecclesiasticall or civil did confirm the transcendent power of the Bishops & Archbishops for the placing and displacing of Ministers , for the thrusting out and receiving in , both of Ministers and people , and so f●r innumerable other corruptions ? Yet these things being vniversally practised in the land , the Church were nothing at all the more pure , onely it had the more liberty of reformation , which now by the lawes and cannons , as by iron barres , is shut out .

What Statute or Canon was there that the Corinthians should suffer amongst them the incestuous person vnreformed ? And yet for so doing this † † Cor. 5. 6. litle leven levens the whole lump .

What Parliament or Convocation-house amongst the Galathians had decreed the mingling of circumcision with the gospell ? And yet for so doing they are charged by the Apostle to be * * Gal. 1. 6. removed or turned away to another gospell .

By what law w●s the mistery of iniquity confirmed ? Or Antichrists comming into the world agreed vpon in the Apostles tyme ? And yet “ “ 2 Ths. 2. 7. the mistery of iniquity then wrought ; and many Antichrists were then † † 1 Ioh. 2. 1● come into the world . And yet these mischeifs being found in the Churches in the Apostles tymes , were as wel imputed vnto them , as if a thousand Parliaments & Convocations had ratified them .

To proceed . It is also true which is further counsayled , that a difference must be held betwixt substance & circumstance ; betwixt the manner and the matter ; betwixt the being and well being of a thing ; and so of the rest : but withall it must be observed that the Lord hath in his word , as wel appoynted the manner how he wil have things done , as the things themselves , and that even circumstances prescribed and determined by the Lord , are of that force , not only to deface the welbeing , but to overturn the true being of Gods worship .

The Lord commaunded the Israelites by Moses to bring they● sacrifices and oblations to the place which for that purpose he would chuse and there to offer them , Deut. 12. 5. 6.

And did not all offerings brought to any other place ( without speciall dispensation ) stink in his nostrels ? And yet this was but a circumstance of place .

And wherein stands the breach of the fourth commaundement but in a circumstance of tyme ? Lastly , what was the transgression of Vzziah the King , for which God stroke him with leprosy , but a personall aberration , a sinne in the circumstance of person , for that he being no Preist , would adventure to offer incense at the Altar . 2. Chr. 26. 16. 17. 18. 19.

Of the same nature was the sinne of Corah Dathan & Abiram , merely circumstantiall : Dathan and Abiram being of a wrong tribe , and Corah of a wrong family and yet for that theyr rebellion , the earth by Gods judgment opened her mouth , and swallowed vp both them and theyrs . Numb. 16. 1. 2. 32.

And for the well being and right ordering of good things , the Lord as well requireth it , as the things themselves . He hath not left in the hands of the Church a rude matter to frame after her owne fashion , but with the matter he hath also appoynted the manner and form wherein all things must be done .

When Moses vnder the law was to make the Tabernacle , the Lord did not set him out the matter and stuffe whereon to make it , and so left the manner and form● to his pleasure and discretion , but appoynted the one as well as the other ; and if he had framed it , or any thing about it after any other fashion then according to the pattern shewed him in the mount , he had done abhominably in the sight of the Lord . Exo. 25. 3-40 . &c. and 26. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. &c. Hebr. 8. 5. When the Ark of God was to be removed vpon occasion , the Preists were to cover it , that no hand might touch it , and so to carry it vpon their shoulders to the place of rest . Numb. 4. 11. 15. Deut. 3. 19.

Now this order of the Lord was violated , in the bringing of it out of the house of Abinadab vncovered and vpon a cart , after the fashion of the Egyptians , 1 Sam. 8. 7. 8. And the breach of this order the Lord punished very severely , making a breach vpon Vzzah the Preist for touching the Ark , which was his personall sinne , and for carrying it vpon the cart , which sinne was common to the rest of the Preists with him ; he was striken dead by the hand of God in the same place . 2 Sam. 6.

Now both this and the former examples are left to warne vs to take he●d , that we presume not against the Lord in the least ceremony or circumstance , neyther make any transgression small in our eyes , or the eyes of others , as the manner of too many is . But let vs rather learne to feare before the Highest whose eyes are pure , & can indure none iniquity ; and let vs labour to keepe our hearts tender agaynst all sinne , even agaynst that which seemeth the least ; knowing that if the Lord should let Satan loose vpon vs , to presse our consciences , & should withdraw his comforts from vs in our temptations , the least sinne would prove a burden vntollerable .

4 Use the present good which thou mayest enioy to the vtmost , and Mr B. an experienced good before thou doest trouble thyselfe to seek for a supposed better good , vntryed , which thou enioyest not .

We must so enioy experienced good things , as we stock not our Answ. selves in respect of other things , as yet vntryed . We may not stint or circumscribe eyther our knowledg , or fayth , or obedience , within streyter bounds then the whole revealed will of God , in the knowledge , & obedience wherof we must dayly encrease & edify our selves ; much lesse must we suffer our selves to be stripped of any liberty which Christ our Lord hath purchased for vs , and given vs to vse for our good ; Gal 5. 1.

And here ( as I take it ) comes in the ●ase of many hundreds in the Church of England , who what good they may enioy ( that is safely enjoy or without any great bodily daunger , ) that they vse very fully . Where the wayes of Christ ly open for them , by the authority of men , & where they may walk safely with good leave , there they walk very vprightly , and that a round pace ; but when the commaundements of Christ are as it were hedged vp with Cant. 1. 6. thrones , by mens prohibitions , there they fowly † step a syde , and pitch theyr tents by the flocks of his fellowes .

There are many in the land very zealous & severe in all the d●ties of the second table , and in the private and personal duties of the first table , and in such publick duties also as the times wil bear , and in those respects may say as Iehu did to Iehonadab , * * 2 King . ●0 . 15. see the ze●● which I have for the house of the Lord : but consider the same persons i● their Communion , Leyturgy , Ministery and government , & there seemeth a most monstrous composition . These things in the same men do agree as ill as the Ark of God & Dagon in the same house . We ought in no case to share our service betwixt Christ and Antichrist , nor to stock ourselves in any the least parts of the revealed will of God , but must grow and increase in the whole body of obedience , and all the parts thereof ; otherwise ( as in the naturall body if one part grow and not an other ) the effect wil be monstrous . Ezek. 18. 11. 12. Iam. 2. 10. Deut. 8. 1.

The 5. 6. & 7. precept I pretermit : the 8. followeth .

8. Never praesume to reforme others , before thou hast w●●● Mr Ber. ordered thy self . &c.

True zeal , it is certayn , ever beginnes at home , and gives mor● Answ. libertie unto other men then it dares assume unto it self . And there is nothing more true or necessary to be considered , then that every man ought to order himself and his own stepps first . That is good & the best , but not all . For if by Gods commandement we ought to † † Exod. 23. ● . bring back our enemies ox or asse that strayeth , how much more to bring into order our brothers soul & body wandring in by pathes ?

And here Mr Bernard brings to mind a practise vsuall with many of the preachers in their sermons . They wil advance prayer , viz , their service book ; that they may extenuate preaching ; commend peace , that they may smother truth ; plead much for censures due to be given him , that they may deteyne from God his due ; and every where send men back into themselves , that they may keep them from looking vpon others , and so make them carelesse of such duties towards their brethren , as Gods word bindes them unto . Levi● . 19. 17. 1 Thes. 5. 14. As though the commandements of God were opposite one to another , and could not stand together , wheras they are all most holy and good , and all helpful one to another , and all to be practised in their places ; whether they concerne our selves or our brethren . They of the one sort ought to be done , and they of the other not to be left vndone .

The 9. 10. and 11. Rule I acknowledge without exception .

12. Whomsoever thou doest see to do a misse , iudge it not to be Mr. Bern. of wilfulnes , but eyther of ignorance , and so offer to informe them ; or of infirmity , and so pitty them , and pray for them . Be charitable , &c.

This Rule as it is not vniversally true , for we may oft tymes discern Answ. in mens both words and actions , wilfull and wayward obstinacy , and so may iudge of them , 1 Tim. 6. 5. Tit. 3. 10. 11 : so is it ill practised by him that gives it . For amongst other sinns wherewith he loadeth he Separists in his book , † † Pag. 65. wilfull obstinacy in their schism● , is one .

Here full charitably he advertiseth to iudge no man , wilfull in his ●inn , & yet there he himself so iudgeth vs : eyther excluding vs from the common libertyes of mankynde , as wormes and no men ; or himself following the steps of his forefathers , in * * Mat. 23 ▪ 4. laying heavy burdens vpon other mens shoulders , which himself will not touch with the least finger .

Agaynst the 13. direction , I have not to oppose , and therefore passe to the 14. and last , touching things indifferent ; by which this authour makes way into many an impertinent , & indigested consideration . The rule followeth .

14. In things indifferent make no question for conscience sake , so Mr. Bern. be that neyther holynes , meri●e nor necessity be put therein : nor they vsed for any part of Gods worship , but for decency , order and aedification .

For answer of this , sundry things are to be considered . Answ.

And first , that which the Apostle speaks , 1 Cor. 10. 25. 27. of the common conversation of Christians in the world , and of their liberty that way , Mr. Bern. misapplieth to the case of religion , and matters of Gods worship , as though men might vse as great liberty in the matters of religion or about the same , as in their worldly affayres .

Secondly , where the Apostle , ver. 25. 27. directs the faythful to make no conscience of eating , he further addeth , ver. 28. 29. that for the offence of a weak brother scandalizing at the eating of Idolothites , they ought to make conscience and to forbeare . This latter part which is the very drift of the scripture , Mr. Bern. concealeth , and so maymeth the sence , and frustrateth the reader ; and whether to thi●●nd he leaves not the words vnquoted , his owne heart knowes best .

3. Howsoever you labour to cover your Popish ceremonies ( for th●se you meane though you name them not , ) vnder the title of things indifferent , of to●es tris●es and the like , ( champing them smal , that they may the easilyer be swallowed , ) denying that either holynes , or necessity is put in them , or that they are made partes of Gods worship , yet hath the contrary been sufficiently manyfested by your owne men , to whose large treatises to this purpose , I refer the reader . Notwithstanding since Mr. B. casts this consideration , as a stone in the way to other matters of importance , I may not altogether overstryde it , but will turne it over as I goe , that the reader as he passeth by , may see what wormes and other vermine , lyes vnder it .

First then to l●t passe the holynes which thousands in the land put in the crosse , surplice , kneeling at the communion , without which they think no service or sacrament so acceptable to God , for which cause alone they ought not onely to be forborne , but to be abolished much rather then the brasen serpent , 2. King . 18. it is evident that the same special vses and ends are ascribed vnto them , and to the principall parts of Gods worship : and so agreeing in theyr ends they agree in their natures .

One mayn end & vse of the word of God , is to teach & signify vnto vs the good will of God , and our duety mutually towards him and towards our brethren , & to stir vp our mynds to the remembrance and performance of t●● same , 2 Tim. 3. 16. And what lesse is attributed to the ceremonyes , when † † Tre●tise of Ceremonies they are neyther dark nor dumb , but ap● to stir vp the dul mynde of man to the remembrance of his duty to God .

The proper ends and vses of baptisme are to initiate the partyes baptised into the Church of Christ , and to consecrate them to his service , & so to serve for badges of Christianity , by which it is distinguished from all other professions , Mat. 28. 19. 1 Cor. 12. 13. And for what meaner vse serves the signe of the crosse in baptism , by or with which , † † service book , Ca●● . 30. the childe is r●ceaved into the congregation of Christs flock , and by it as by an honourable badge of Christian profesion dedicated to the service of Christ ?

And so those ceremonyes supposed indifferent , agreing with the mayn parts of Gods worship in theyr ends , must agree also in their natures with them , since fines rerum sunte formis , & so consequently must have holynes in them , or els your worship Mr. B. is very vnholy .

And what necessity is put in them , all men see when the purest preaching in the land without them is thought not onely vnnessary , but even intollerable . And if * * 1 Cor. 9. 16. necessity be layd vpon the Ministers to preach the Gospell , then that to which the preaching of the Gospell must give place , is more necessary , and so made .

Moreover , to make a thing indifferent , and yet to serve for decency , order and edification , includes a contradiction : For it is not an indifferent thing to minister the ordinances of Christ decently orderly and to edification , but a matter of simple necessity , 1 Cor. 14. 26. 40.

Yea I adde , if the Ceremonyes make the worship of God the more comely , orderly , and edificative , they ought continually & diligently to be vsed , yea though they were forbidden by the Highest power vpon earth : as on the contrary , if they advantage not the worship of God for those purposes , they are vayn and frivolous , & to be forborn in or about the worship of God , which abhorrs all such vanity .

Lastly , as we live in a very indifferent age for religion , wherein the most are indifferent of what religion they are ; yea whither they be of any or none ; so no mervayl though men stand stis●y for indifferency of things . And when they have amongst them such devises , as they neither can approve for good , nor wil condemn as evil , they baptize them into the name of indifferent things . But the truth is , there is nothing simply indifferent in the vse : but be it never so base or meane a ceremony , circumstance or appurtenance to any solemn action , it is eyther good or evill according to the furtherance or hinderance which it affoardeth to the mayn ▪ If it give furtherance to a naturall action , it is naturally good ; if to a civil action , civily good ; if to a religious action , religiously good ; and so to be reputed : otherwise it is vayne at the least : and vanity as it is every where evil , so is it in the matters of religion the taking of Gods name in vayn .

The next thing which Mr. Bern. vndertakes , is to set downe how scrupulosity of conscience ariseth in men : for which disease ( if it arise ) surely he sheweth himself a physition of no value for the healing of it : but eyther smothereth the same vnder the authority of the Magistrate , or dispenseth with it vpon good meanings , or forceth it on without assurance , or entangleth it with new doubts .

In the first enquiry which he wils men to make into themselves , touching scrupulosity of conscience amongst other things he speaks thus .

If the ground , vz. of doubting be not a iudgement enlightened , & Mr. Bern. convinced , it is not trouble of conscunce , but a dislike working discontentment vpon some other ground .

And this in the margent he wils the reader to note well , as in Answ. deed he may note it and brand it , too for il & vnadvised counsayl .

For howsoever no mans conscience ought to scandalize or be troubled at the vse of lawful things ( for the larger conscience the better in that which is lawfull ) and that such doubts in the heart do arise from weaknes of fayth ; and weaknes of faith from want of knowledge : yet since we all † † 1 Cor. 13. ●● . know but in part , & that our fayth is according to our knowledge , and our conscience according to our fayth , when a doubt or scruple ariseth in our hearts touching the lawfullnes of things , yea though it be of very ignorance , we must not passe it over lightly without trouble , least it prove as a thorn in the heele and rankle inwardly . Neyther are such scruples alwayes so easily removed , as Mr. Bern. maks account . Weak and tender consciences do oft tymes stick at a very strawe , and there must they stand , til the Lord give strength to step over .

The thing intended and promised by Mr. Bern. in the next place , is satisfaction to the perplexed conscience , and direction in that case : which he is so far from performing by sound and resolved counsayl ( as were meet ) as in stead therof , he propounds sundry doubtes and quaeries of his own , which he leaves vnsatisfyed , to the further entangling of his perplexed patient : abusing also his reader too much in performing questions , where he promiseth answers .

Wel , howsoevr it be an easier thing to ty knotts then to loose them , and that a simple man may cast a stone into a ditch , which a wise man cannot get out agayne : yet are not those questions which Mr. Bern. propounds and so leaves vnanswered , so dark & doubtfull , that a man needs take so long a jorney as the Queen of Sheba did , for resolution .

The first quaere of weight being the 4. in order , I wil set down word for word , though it be large , because it is of speciall consideration . The question then is .

Why a man should be more scrupulous to seek to have warrant playnly M. Ber. for every thing he doth in ecclesiasticall causes , even about things indifferent , more then about matters pollitick in civil affaires . Men in these things know not the ground nor end of many things , which they do yeeld vnto vpon a generall command to obey authority , and knowing them not to be directly agaynst Gods will : and yet every particular obedience in civill matters must be 1. of conscience , 2. as serving the Lord ( so must every servant his maister ) which cannot be without knowledg & perswasion that we do wel even in that particular which we obey in . Which m●n vsually for conscience sake enquir● not into , but do rest themselves with a generall commaundement of obeying lawful authority , so it be not agaynst a playne commaundement of God . What therefore doth let but that a man may so satisfie himselfe in matters Ecclesiasticall ?

Though as playne a warrant must be had from Gods word , Answ. for the things we do in matters politick , as in causes cclesiastical ; and that obedience in the one as well as in the other must be of conscience : yet notwithstanding the same word of God warranteth vnto vs clean and an other and different course of obedience in things civil , and in things ecclesiasticall .

And the grosse ignorance or vngodly concealment of this difference , is the cause of great confusion . It must therefore be considered that this difference stands in two poynts , 1. the nature of the things and their proper ends . 2. the power immediate by which they are imposed ; from which two ariseth necessarily a third difference to be made in the conscience of obedience vnto them .

First then it cannot be denyed , but matters civill and politick do come vnder the generall administration and goverment of the world , and do respect the outward man for this present life . On the other side , matters ecclesiasticall come vnder the special administration of the Church , and serve for the edification and building vp of the inward man to life eternall .

Secondly , Magistrates and men in authority , do enact and impose their civill decrees and ordinances upon theyr subiects , by a Kingly and Lordly power , as being Kings and Lords civilly over the outward man , and his outward estate ; Math. 20. 25. and may by their Kingly and Lordly power commaund in their owne names , and that vpon occasion to the civill hurt and hinderance of many of theyr people , & are therein to be obeyed notwithstanding , Rom. 13. 1. 2. 3. &c. Mat. 22. 21.

But in causes ecclesiasticall not so . There is no King of the Church but Christ , who is † † Rev. 15. 3 Isa. 62. 11. the King of Saincts and Saviour of Syon , no Lord but Iesus , who is the onely * * Ephe. 4. 5 Iam. 4. 12. Lord and Lawgiver of his Church . And all his lawes & statutes tend to the furtherance and advancement of every one of his subiects in their spiritual estate , & neyther King nor Kezar may or ought to impose any law to the least praeju dice of the same , neyther ar they therin ( if they should ) to be obeyed . Our civil liberty we may loose without syn , & without syn vndergo bodily domages , Math. 22. 21. but we are bidden “ “ Gal. 5. 1. stand for the liberty wherwith Christ hath freed vs , & that is the whol liberty of the Church ; & to † † Col 2. 16. let no man iudge vs ( that is , ecclesiastically , ) no not in mea●s & drinks , though civilly men may commaund & iudge vs in them . And vpon these grounds truely layd by the word of God , an answer may be framed on this manner .

In civill affayres we may and ought to obey for the authority of the commaunder , yea though we know not any good , but on the contrary much harm to our bodily estate , comming vnto vs by the same : but in matters ecclesiasticall which are subordinate to the souls good , we must obey onely for the ends of the things commaunded , and as they tend to the edification of our selves and others , 1 Cor. 14. 26.

To conclude this poynt , since the Apostles expresly commaunds , that all things in the Church be done to the edification of the same , I would demaund of Mr. B. with what fayth or good conscience he or any other man , can do or enterprise any one thing in the Church , which he or they are not perswaded by the word of God ( which is the rule of fayth ) tends to edification .

These things being thus , there is no cause why Mr. B. should account it curiosity to serch particularly into every thing for satisfaction : ( the differences formerly layd down being observed ) neyther doth this holy care of Gods servants ( as he further addeth ) work vpon mens wittes to bring distinctions , but on the contrary men of corrupt mynds and vnfaythfull least they should be reformed by the word of God , do get distinctions , like excuses after their owne hearts . Much lesse is it eyther truely or christianly affirmed which followeth , that the more men seek in doubts for resolution , the further they are from it . For howsoever it may be thus with M. B. & many others , which seek the truth as cowards do their enemyes , with a fear to fynd it , least it trouble theyr carnall peace ; yet have other men better yssue of theyr labours , and by † † Mat. 7. 7 & 13. 44. seeking have found that hydden treasure for the purchase whereof they are content to sell all they have , and to buy it . In the next place come in six rules of directions how to settle the cons●ience to prevent scrupulosity , and perplexity .

1. Keep all mayn truthes in the word which are most playnely Mr Ber. set downe , and are by law of nature ingraven in every man .

First , you are much mistaken Master Bern. if you imagine Answer . that all mayn truthes in the word are engraven in every man by the lawe of nature . For the gospell is the more principall part of the word , which notwithstanding is wholy supernaturall and above the created knowledge of man or Angel , Mat. 11. 27. Ephe. 3. 10.

Secondly , if in commending mayn truthes and such as ar● playnely set downe , you do insinuate that there are any truthes so meane which we may eyther neglect to serch , or ( having found them ) to obey , therin you should deceive by promising liberty , & make your selfe wiser then God , and crosse his ordinance & appoyntment . 2 Tim. 3. 16. Deut. 4. 1. 2.

And for things left more dark in the Scriptures , they must be vnto vs matter of humiliation in our naturall blyndenes , and of more earnest meditation and prayer with all good conscience .

2. Beleeve every collection truely & necessarely gathered by an immediate Mr. Bern. consequence from the text .

This is good but not sufficient . For collections truely made Answ. ( though by mediate consequences one after another ) are to be receaved , though the fewer the better , and the lesse subiect to daunger . And we must not curtall the discourse of reason soberly vsed and sanctifyed by the word , so short as Mr. B. would haue vs . When the Lord Iesus was to deal with the Saduces about the resurrection he took his proof from that which is written , Exo. 3. 6. I am the God of Abraham , &c. which words do no way conclude the Math. 22. 23 — 32. resurrection of the body ( which was the question ) by any immediate consequence , and yet the collection was good and necessary .

The 3. and 4. direction I omit as questionles , and come to the 5. in order .

5. Enterteyn true antiquity , & follow the generall practise of the Church Mr. Bern. of God in all ages , where they have not erred from the evident truth of God .

It cannot be denyed but that is best which is most auncient , Answ. and that truth and righteousnes were in the world before syn & error ; but neyther the one nor the other did continue long eyther amongst men or Angels . And he that but considers what monstrous errours and corruptions sprang vp in the Church of the new Testament , whylest the Apostles lived which planted them , wil not think it strange though almost all were over-grown with such bryars and thornes in a few ages following .

And what not onely vnsoundnes in doctrine , but vncertaynty in story is to be found in the most auncient writers , no man though but even meanely exercised in them , can be ignorant . And yet if we would take vp these weapons , it were easy to make good our part against the Church of England in the mayne differences . But we have the word of God which is to vs a sure testimony : and if he be onely to be heard of whome God from heaven hath testified † † Mat. 3 ▪ 17. & 23. 10. Act. 1. 22 . , as the onely Prophet and Doctor of his Church , we are not then so much to regard what any man hath practised before vs , as what Christ hath commaunded which is before all . And we must in the first labour to have our harts seasoned with the word of God and according to that taste must all mens both perswasions and practises be savored by vs : taking heed of those preposterous courses commonly held ; some at the first corrupting their harts with the thorny subtilties of the school-men , & more witty then sound sayings of the fathers , and others prejudicing and forestalling themselves by the present and sensible state of things before theyr eyes , or by the generall and partiall practise of tymes past ; and so comming in the last place to the word of God , haling that in , to back and support theyr exalted forestalled imaginations .

6. If thou suffer , let it be for knowne truth , and against knowne wickednes , M. B. for which thou hast examples in the word , or of holy martyrs in story , suffering for the same or the like . But beware of far fetched consequences , &c.

We are to forbeare evills not onely known , but suspected & * * Rom. 14 ▪ 22. 23. Ans. doubted of . And he that knowes what a heart meaneth truely softened and made tender with the blood of Christ , had rather suffer all extremityes then approve that as good , eyther by word , writing , or practise , which he but doubteth to be evill , and to displease God , except by fayth he can overcome that doubt in some measure .

And for vs , though we had no example eyther in the word of God , or other story of any martyrs suffering in the same or the like particulars with vs , yet since the things we suffer for , are parts of the generall truth of the gospell , which others before vs have witnessed , we must expose and give our bodyes to the smyters , and our Isa. 50. 6 . cheeks vnto the nippers , and must not hide our faces from reproches & spitting rather then we deny the least part of it : How much more then considering how many witnesses the Lord hath raysed vp , which having finished their testimony against the Apostacy and vsurpation of the man of sinne , some in one degree and some in an other , have been killed by the beast , some of old and others of late tymes , Rev. 11. 3. 7.

Lastly , where mention is made of things onely seeming vnto men just & holy : it must be considered , that it is all one to the conscience of the doer , whither the thing done be so in truth , or but in appearance . And he that eyther doth that which seemeth vnto him vnjust and vnholy , or passeth by that which seemeth just and holy , sinneth agaynst his owne hart , † † Ioh. 3. 20 and if his owne hart condemn him , God which is greater then his heart will much more condemn him .

If yet thou doest iudge a thing commaunded a sinne , and not to be Mr B. obeyed ; for thy help herein , enquire whether that which is wrongfully or sinfully commaunded , may not yet neverthelesse be without sinne obeyed as Ioab obeyed David in numbring the people .

This is as much as if in playne termes you should counsel a Ans. man , to consider whether he may not sinne without syn : for what els is it to obey that commaundement , which a man judgeth not to be obeyed ? A cold comforter are you to a perplexed conscience & an ill counseler , thus to advise men to be bould agaynst the Lord , and to try whether , they can blynd their consciences , and harden their harts , that they may sinne without feeling , or feare .

The example of Ioab in obeying David , is impertinent . The case was civil , and in civill affaires many thinges may lawfully be vndergone , which are vnlawfully imposed . For example : If the King merely for his pleasure should enioyne Mr B. vpon some great penalty to come into the field souldierlike , to draw a sword , shoot , march or the like , the Magistrate might do evill in thus commaunding , and yet not Mr B. in obeying : but thus to do in the Church or pulpit in the tyme of Gods worship , were as sinfull obedience as were the commaundement sinfull . All actions ecclesiasticall , in or about Gods worship , are subordinate to the edification of the Church and to good order ; if they tend thereto they are lawfull in the commaunder , if not they are vnlawfull in him that obeyeth .

Besides , Davids commandement for numbring the people , was no way vnlawfull in it selfe , but vpon occasion both lawfull & necessary . Numb. 1. 2. & 26. 4. It was onely the curiosity or pride , or infidelity of Davids heart made the sinne , which might hurt himself , but not Ioab . But had Ioab judged the thing commaunded sinne , and not to have been obeyed , he had sinned in obeying , as well as David in commaunding .

That which Mr B. calls next into quaestion , is , whether the recusant Mr B. Ministers may not for the free preaching of the gospel , yeeld so far to the evill disposition of the Prelates as to subscribe , and conforme vnto their ceremonies though they cannot approve of them , nor judge them lawfull . For this is the thing M. B. aymes at , though he carry the matter something covertly , because he would offend neyther party . And to perswade vnto this he brings in Paul , checking himselfe for reviling the high Preist , and observing the legall ceremonyes after abolishment , to procure free liberty to preach the gospell , and after Moses graunting a bill of divorcement ( countrary to the law of mariage ) for the very hardnes of the peoples harts .

To this I answer sundry things , as , first to preach the gospell Ans. vpon condition of obedience in that wherein a man eyther judgeth or suspecteth himself to sinne , is nothing lesse then to preach the gospell freely : though this be in truth that free preaching of the gospell in the Church of England whereof we heare so many lowd boasts . And to perswade a man vnto this , is , to perswade him to do evill that good may come thereof , as though the Lord stood ▪ need of mans sinne , for the publishing of his truth , or saving of his elect .

The preaching of the gospel is a most excellent thing , and the fruits of it far better then those of Eden ( and oh how happy were we , if with exchaunge of halfe the dayes of our lives we might freely publish it to our own nation , for the converting of sinners ) yet must no man be so far possessed with the excellency of the obiect , ( as were our first parents with the goodnes , bewty , and supposed benefit of the forbidden fruit ) as to presse vnto it by vnlawfull wayes : and for a man to go about to perswade to the practise of a thing by the casuall fruits and effects of it , & not in the meane whyle to cleare the way of feare and scruple of sinne in the meanes of attayning the proposed good , is to go about to deceive him whom he perswadeth , and by a bayt ( as it were ) to til his conscience , as a byrd into a snare , into most fearful intanglements .

And for Paul , as it is a very vngodly suspition cast vpon him , that he should do any thing which he doubted to be syn , or which he did not most assuredly know was pleasing vnto God , so is it very vntruly affirmed that he did that he did , eyther as yeelding to the evil disposition of men , or to procure free liberty to preach the gospel . He did all things most freely and without any respect to humane authority , fulfilling the royall law of love in tendering the weaknes of the brethren newly converted from Iudaism , observing with them the legall rytes , & those also made a part of Gods worship by them , and that without all probability of sinning , whereof you impeach him .

Now for Moses he did not graunt , that is , approve of the bill of divorcement , but onely permitted it for the avoyding of a greater evil , which civil Magistrates may do in some cases , which notwithstanding no man vsed without sinne . And what doth this better your popish ceremonies ?

The last thing in quaestion is the case of offence , touching which you make many doubts , where the holy ghost makes none ; forgetting your owne good admonition , that men should take heed of g●●●ing distinctions , and other evasion through pollicy or fear of trouble to loose sincerity , where the word is playn .

There is not a case in the whole Bible more cleare , then that the things called indifferent ▪ may and ought to be forborne , for the weak conscience of a brother . Rom. 14 15. 20. 21. 1 Cor. 9. 19. 20. 21. 22. & 10. 23. 24 ▪ 28. 29. And yet this clear truth you labour to darken by the mist of mans authority , pretence of good effects , surmises of partiality , humour , and folly in the partyes offended , raysed out of your owne hart . But let vs heare your advise .

Quaere , Whether it be an offence iustly given by thee , or taken without Mr B. iust reason of others : thou not offending and they displeased , the fault is their own and thou not chargeable therewith .

But you must vnderstand Mr B. that in the vnseasonable vse of Answer . things in themselves indifferent , there is an offence both given & taken , and so a double sinn committed : he that gives the offence sinns through want of charity , and he that takes it through want or weaknes of fayth . And so where actions simply good , do onely hurt him that takes offence ; and actions simply evill , him that gives it ; the vse of things indifferent agaynst expediency , hurts & harmes and destroyes both . Rom. 14. 15.

Now the parts of your second enquiry , viz. whether men be offended Mr B. in respect of what themselves know , or butled by affection , disliking of other mens dislike , are insufficient . For men do oft tymes take offence at things done , and yet neyther in respect of their own knowledge Ans. nor of other mens dislike , but merely through want of knowledg and vpon ignorance of their christian liberty . And such were the weak brethren spoken of , Rom. 14. 1 Cor. 8. and 9. which how they were to be tendered in their weaknes , let the places iudge .

And for persons partially affectionate , or foolishly froward , which is the mayn point in the 3. Quaere , they are no way to be regarded as weak , but on the contrary to be reproved as wayward & contentious , that folly and sinne may not rest vpon them . Onely let men take heed they iudge not vncharitably of their brethren , because they would practise vncharitably towards them , as † † 1 Sam. 2● . Nabal reviled David and his men as runnagates , because he would deal churlishly with them , and would shew them no mercy .

In the forth place it is demaunded .

What authority may do in things externall for outward rule in the Mr B. circumstances of things .

How colourably you cary all the abominations in your Church Ans. vnder the shadow of circumstances , and of how great moment even circumstances are in the case of religion I have formerly spoken : let me onely ad thus much .

If a subject should vsurp the crown , and exercise regall authority , the difference were but in the circumstance of person , which notwithstanding made the action high treason . Or if a Preist comming to say his evensong should fall a sleep on his desk , it were but a matter of circumstance in respect of tyme and place , it might lawfully be done in another place , and at another tyme , yet there & then it were a great prophaning of the service book . What sway authority hath in the Church of England , appeareth in the lawes of the land , which make the goverment of the Church alterable at the Magistrates pleasure : and so the Clergy in their submission to K. Henry 8. do derive , as they pretend , their ecclesiasticall jurisdiction from him , and so exercise it . Indeed many of the late Bishops and their Procters , seeing how monstrous the ministration is of divine things , by an humane authority and calling ; and growing bould vpon the present disposition of the Magistrate , have disclaimed that former title , and do professedly hold their eclesiasticall power and jurisdiction de jure divino , & so consequent●y by Gods word vnalterable . Of whom I would demaund this one quaestion .

What if the King should discharge and expell the present ecclesiasticall goverment , & plant in stead of it the Presbytery or Eldership , would they submit vnto the government of the Elders , yea or no ? if yea , then were they traytors to the Lord Iesus submitting to a goverment , overthrowing his goverment , as doth the Praesbyterian goverment , that which is Episcopall ; if no , then how could they free themselves from such imputations of disloyalty to Princes , and disturbance of States , as wherewith they load vs & others opposing them . But to the quaestion it self .

As the † † Ioh. 18. 36 kingdom of Christ is not of this world , but spirituall , & he a spiritual King : so must the goverment of this spirituall kingdom vnder this spirituall King needs be spiritual , & all the lawes of it And as Christ Iesus hath by the merits of his Preisthood * * 1 Cor. 6 : 20. redemed as well the body as the soule ; so is he also by the scepter of his Kingdom to rule & reign over both : vnto which Christian Magistrates as well as meaner persons , ought to submit themselves , & the more Christian they are , the more meekly to take the yoke of Christ vpon them , and the greater authority they have , the more effectually to advance his scepter over themselves , & their people by all good meanes . Neyther can there be any reason given , why the merits of saynts , may not as wel be mingled with the merits of Christ for the saving of his Church , as the lawes of men with his lawes , for the ruling and guiding of it . He is as absolute and as intire a King as he is a Preist , and his people must be as carefull to praeserve the dignity of the one , as to enjoy the benefit of the other .

The next Quaere , is . Whether authority commaunding doth not Mr B. take away the offence which might otherwise be given in a voluntary act .

This question is answered affirmatively , by the Bishops & their Ans. adhaerents , and so with one voice they affirme in their books , pulpits and other publik determinations : but herein as palpably flattering the Magistrate , as ever Canonist did the Pope . What more was ever given to the Pope , then that he might dispence with the morall law . And what lesse is given to the King when by his authority I vse things indifferent with offence to my weak brother ? Is not love † † Rom. 13. 2. the fulfilling of the law ? And is it not * * Rom. 14. 13. against the law of love to vse things indifferent with offence ? which must the more carefully be avoyded , considering the effects it drawes with it , which are not onely the grief ( which were too much ) but even the destruction of him for whom Christ dyed , ver. 5. 20. 1 Cor. 8. 11.

Onely he which can strengthen the weak faith ( which is the cause of the offence ) can take away the offence , and stablish him that is weak , Rom. 14. 4. Men may and must vse meanes for that purpose , and not nourish the weak in their weaknes , but beare them they must in love , and much love will have much patience .

Lastly , ( for I passe over the 5. Quaere as comprehended in those which go before ) where you advise men to studie , & agayn to study to be quiet , and to follow those things which concerne peace : it is needfull counsel and againe needfull , considering what vnquiet spirits are to be found in all places . Onely let men in their counsayls ( which you leave out ) ioyne with peace “ “ Rom. 14. 19. Heb. 12 14. aedification , and holynes as the scriptures teach , and so * * Ier. 15. 19 Pro. 12. 20. Mat. 5. 9. separating the pretious from the vile , they shal be to vs as Gods mouth : and let their peace be in the word of righteousnes , & the ioy of the counselers of peace shal be vpon them , and the blessing of peace-makers vpon their heads .

Of Mr B. disswasive probabilities .

THe next thing that comes into consideration , is , certayn probabilities & likelyhoods , as the authour calls them , consisting for the most part of personal imputations , & di graceful calumniations , whereby he labours to withdraw the harts of the simple from the truth of God , unto disobedience , as Absalom did the people into rebellion against the K. by slandering his goverment . 2 San. 15.

But if Mr Bern. followed his sound judgement in this boo● , as he professeth in the Preface , and so laboured to lead others , he would neyther go himself , nor send them by vnstable guesses and likelyhoods , as he doth .

The truth of God goes not by peradventures , neyther needs it any such paper-shot as likelyhoods are to assault the adversary withall . The word of God which is * * 2 Ti● . 3. 16. 17. profitabl● to teach , to reprov● , to correct , and to instruct in righteousnes , is sufficient to furnish the man of God with weapons spirituall , and those “ “ 2 Cor. 10. ●● . mighty through God to cast downe strong holds , and whatsoever high thing is exalted against the knowledge of God . And if M. B. speak according to the Law and Prophets , his words are solid arguments , if not , there is neyther light in him , nor truth in them : and so where truth is wanting must some like-truthes , or images of truth be layed in the place , like the image in Davids bed to deceive them that sought after him , when he himself was wanting . 1 Sa● . 19. 13.

The first probabilitie that our way is not good , is .

The noveltie thereof differing from all the best reformed Churches ●● ● . Likelyhood . Christendome .

It is no noveltie to hear men plead custome , when they want Answ●r . truth . So the heathen Phylosophers reproched Paul as † † Act. 17. 19. a bringer of new doctrine : so do the Papists discountenance the doctrine and profession of the Church of England , yea even at this day , very many of the people in the Land , vse to call Popery the old law , & the profession there made , the new law .

But we for our parts , as we do beleeve by the word of God , that the things we teach are not new , but old truthes renued : so are we no lesse fully perswaded , that the Church constitution in which we are set , is cast in the Apostolicall and primitive mould , and not one day nor hower yonger in the nature and forme of it , then the first Church of the new Testament . And whether a people all of them separated , & sanctified ( so farr as men by their fruits can , or ought to judge ) or a mingled generation of the seed of the woman and seed of the serpent be more ancient ; the government of sundry Elders or Bishops with joynt authority over one Church , or of one Nationall , Provincial , or Diocesan Bishop over many hundred or thousand Churches ; the spirituall prayers conceived in the heart of the Ministers according to the present occasions , or necessityes of the Church , or the English service book ; the simple administration of the Sacraments , according to the words of institution , or pompous and carnall complements of cap , coap , surplice , crosse , godfathers , kneeling and the like mingled withall ; I do even refer it to the report of Mr B. owne conscience , be it never so partiall .

Now for the differences betwixt the best reformed Churches ( as Mr B. calls them , granting thereby his owne to be the worst ) and vs , they ar extant in print , being few in number , & those none of the greatest weight . But what a volume would these differences make betwixt those reformed Churches , and the vnreformed Churches of England , if they were exactly set downe . And yet for the corruptions reproved by vs in the reformed Church where we live , I do vnderstand by them of good knowledge , and sincerity , that the most or greatest of them are rather in the exequution then in the constitution of the Church .

Our differences from the reformed Churches , Mr B. aggravates by two reasons . 1. The first is our separation from them , 2. the 2. certeyne termes of disgrace vttered by Mr Barrow & Mr Greenwood agaynst the Eldership : which Mr Bernard will have vs disclayme .

For the first , it is not truely affirmed that we separate from them . What our judgment is of them , our confessions of fayth and other wrytings do testify ; and for our practise , as we cannot possibly ioyn vnto them , would we never so fayne , being vtterly ignorant of their language ; so neither do wee separate from them , save in such particulars as we esteeme evill ; which we also shall endeavour to manifest vnto them so to be , as occasion and meanes shal be offered .

And secondly , for the taxations layd by Mr B. and Mr G. vpon the Eldership , or other practise in the reformed Churches , wherein they were any way excessive we both have disclaimed , & alwayes are and shal be ready to disclayme the same . Onely I entreat the godly reader to consider , that those things were not spoken by them otherwise , then in respect of those corruptions in the Eldership & els where , which they deemed Antichristian , and evill . Of which respective phrase of speach more hereafter .

Lastly if it be likely that our way is not good for the difference it hath from the reformed Churches , and that th● greatne● of the difference appeares by the hard termes given by some of vs agaynst the government there vs●d , th●n sur●ly i● is much more Against Scotizing & Genevating Ministers . likely , that the way of the vnreformed Church of England is not good , which differeth far more from the reformed Chu●ches : which difference appeares not onely in most reprochfull termes vsed by the Praelates and their adhaerents against the seekers of reformation comparing them to all vile haeretiques , and seditious persons , O. O. his picture of a Puritan . but in cruell persequutions raysed agaynst them , and greater then against Papists or Atheists .

The second marke by which Mr B. guesseth our way not good is , for that it agreeth so much with the antient schismatiques condemned 2 Likelyhood . in former ages by holy and learned men , Luciferians , Donatists , Novattans and Audians .

Can our way both be a novelty & new devise , and yet agree so Answ. well with the antient schismatiques condemned in former ages ? Contradictions cannot be both true , but may both be false , as these are .

The partyes to whome Mr B. likeneth vs were condemned not onely for schisme but for heresy also , as appeares in Epiphanius , Austine , Eusebius and others . And as we have nothing , no not in s●ew like vnto some of them , nor in truth vnto any of them in the things blame worthy in them , so if Mr B. were put to iustify by the word of God the condemnation of some of them , it would put him to more trouble then he is aware of .

The Audians dissented from the Nicene Councell about theyr Easter tyme . The Luciferians held the soule of man to be ex traduce , and were therefore accounted Haeretiques , as indeed it was too vsuall a thing in those dayes to reiect men for haeretiques vpon too light causes .

And for the Donatists vnto whom Mr Gifford & others would so fayn fashion vs , Mr B. and all others may see the dissimilitude betwixt them & vs in the refutation of that supposed consimilitude . 3. Likelyhood .

A third evill for which Mr B. would bring our cause into suspition is .

The matter of defending our opinions , and proving our assertions by Mr B. strange and forced expositions of scriptures .

Where he also notes in the margent that , the truth needs no such ill means to mainteyne it . Answ.

What the means are by which the Prelacy against which we witnes is mainteyned , all men know . The flattering of superiours , the oppressing of inferiours , the scoffing , reviling , imprisoning , & persequuting vnto banishment and death of such as oppose it , are the weapons of the Prelates warfare , by which they defend their tottering Babel . And were it not for the arm of ●lesh by which they hold , and to which they trust , they and their pomp would vanish away like smoke before the wynde , so little weight have they or theyrs in the consciences of any .

But let us see wherin we mislead the reader by deceiptful allegations of scriptures .

1. In quoting scriptures by the way that is for things comming in upon occasion , Mr B. but nothing to the mayne poynt , &c. Answ.

And wherefore is this deceiptfull dealing thus to alleadge the scriptures ? Because the simple reader is hereby made beleve , that all is spoken for the question controverted .

He is simple & careles also that wil not search the scriptures before he beleve that they ar brought to prove , if he any way suspect it , which who so doth can not be deceived , as is here insinuated .

It were to be wished we both † † Isa. 19. 18. spake and wrote the language of Canaan and none other , and not onely to vse , but even to note the scripture phrase soberly may be to the information and edification of the reader .

2. By vrging commandements , admonitio●s , exhortations , dehortations , Mr B. reprehensions , and godly examples to prove a falsity .

What is falsity but that which is contrary to truth ? and so * * Ioh. 17. 17 the Answ. word of God being truth , whatsoever is contrary vnto any part of it whither commaundement , admonition , exhortation &c. is false , so far forth as it is contrary .

The similitude you take from a naturall child who for his disobedience is not to be reputed a false child but no good child , is like the rest of the your similitudes . The proportion holds not . Men may have such children as ever were , are and wil be disobedient to their dying day , & yet they remayn theyr children whether they will or no : but if any of Gods child●en prove disobedient , and will not be disclaymed , he can dischilde them for bastards as they are , and the true children of the Divil . Ioh. 8. 44.

3. In alledging Scriptures not to prove that for which to the simple Mr. Ber. it seems to be alledged but that which is without controversy , taking the thing in question for granted . For this I take to be his meaning , though he expresse it ill .

The instance he brings of one of vs cyting Act. 20. 21. to prove Answ that all truth is not taught in the Church of England , is , I am perswaded ( if not worse ) mistaken by him . For who would bring Pauls example to shew what the Ministers of England do , and not rather what they should do ? what they do is knowne well enough , and how both they in preaching the will of God , and the people in obeying it , are stinted at the Bishops pleasure .

4 By bringing in places setting forth the invisible Church and holynesse of the members , to set forth the visible Church by , as being proper thereto , as 1 Pet. 2. 9. 10.

That the Apostle here speaketh not of the invisible , but of the visible Church , appeareth not by our bare affirmation , which we might set gaynst Mr B. naked contradiction , yea though he bring in D. Allison in the margent to countenance the matter , but by these reasons .

1. Peter being † † Gal. 2. 7. the Apostle of the Iewes wrote vnto them whose Apostle he was , & whom he knew dispersed through Pontus , Galatia , &c. 1 Pet. 1. 1. But Peter was not the Apostle of the invisible , but of the visible Church which he knew so dispersed , where the invisible Church is onely knowne unto God , 2 Tim. 2. 19.

2. The Apostle vseth the words of Moses to the visible Church of the Iewes , Ex. 19. 6. which do therefore well agree to the visible Church vnder the gospell , whose excellency , graces and holynes , do surmount the former by many degrees .

3. Peter wrytes to a Church wherein were Elders and a flock depending vpon them , to be fed & governed by them , 1 Pet ● . 1. 2. 3. which to affirm of the invisible Church is not onely a visible , but even a palpable error .

4. The Apostle wrytes to them which had the word preached amongst them , Chap. 1. 25. And this Mr B. himselfe , pag. 118. 119. makes a note and testimony of the visible Church , and to that pupose quotes the former chap. v. 23. as he doth also this very chap. ver. 5. which is the same with v. 9. 10. to prove the form of the visible Church . And thus I hope it appeares to all men vpon what good groundes this man thus boldly leadeth vs with deceiptfull dealing in the scriptures . And this instance , I desire the reader the more diligently to observe as being singled out by Mr B. as a pickt witnes against vs , & countenanced by D. Allisons concurring testimony , but especially because it poynts out the Apostolick Churches , clean in contrary colours to the English Synagogues , being vnholy and prophane ; and this is the cause why Mr B. and others are so loth to haue this Scripture ment of the visible Church .

5. By inferences , and references , as if this be one this must follow , and Mr B. this Mr B. calles a deceiveable and crooked waye for the intangling of the simple .

To this I have † † pag. 20. answered formerly , and do agayne answer , that Answ. necessary consequences & inferences are both lawfull & necessary .

If Mr B. had to deale with a Papist agaynst Purgatory or with an Anabaptist for the baptizing of Infants , he should be compelled ( except I be deceived ) to draw his arrowes out of this quiver . And what are consequences regulated by the word ( which * * 1 Tim. 4 4. 5. sanctifieth all creatures ) but that sanctified vse of reason ? & wil any reasonable man deny the vse and discourse of reason ? “ “ Ioh. 20 ▪ 23. If all the things which Iesus did had been written , the world could not have conteyned the books : & if all the dutyes which ly vpon the Church to performe had been written in expresse termes , ( as Mr B. requires ) a world of worlds could not contayne the books which should have been written . Neyther are inferences & references iustly made , any way to be accounted wyndings , but playne passages to the truth , troden before vs by the Lord Iesus and all his holy Apostles , which scarce alledge one scripture of three out of Moses and the Prophets but by way of inference , as all that will , may see .

But the truth is Mr Bern. hath so many times been driven to so grosse absurdities by a consequence or two about this cause , as he vtterly abhorrs the very memory of all consequences , & it seems would have it enacted , that never consequence should be more vrged .

To conclude , whatsoever it pleaseth this man to suggest , the mayne grounds , for which we stand touching the communion , government , ministery , and worship of the visible Church , are expresly conteyned in the scriptures and that ( as we are perswaded ) so plainly , that as like Habbakuks vision , he * * Hab. 2. 2 that runnes may read them .

The 4. guesse against vs is .

That we have not the approbation of any of the reformed Churches for ou● The 4. Likelyhood course , and that where our Confession of faith is without allowance by them , they give on the contrary the right hand of fellowship to the Church of England .

This is the same in substance with the first instance of probability , Ans. and that which foloweth in the next place the same with them both . And Mr Bern. by his so ordinary pressing vs with humane testimonies shewes himself to be very barren of divine authority : as hath bene truely noted by another . Nature teacheth every creature , in all daunger to fly first and oftenest to the chief instruments eyther of offence , or defence , wherin it trusteth , as the But to his horne , the Bore to his tusk , and the byrd vnto her wing : right so this man shewes wherein his strength lies , and wherein he trusts most , by his so frequent and vsuall shaking the horne and whetting the tusk of mortall mans authority against vs .

But for the reformed Churches the truth ●s they neyther do imagine , no nor wil easily be brought to beleeve that the frame of the Church of England stands as it doth : neyther have they any mind to take knowledge of those things , or to enter into examination of them . The approbation which they give of you ( as Mr A. hath observed ) as indeed it is of speciall observation ) is in respect of such generall truthes of doctrine , as wherein we also for the most part acknowledge you : which notwithstanding you deny in a great measure in the particulars , and practise . But touching the gathering , & governing of the Church , which are the mayn heads controverted betwixt you & vs ; they give you not so much as the left hand of fellowship , but do on the contrary turne their backs vpon you .

The difference betwixt you and them in the gathering and constituting of Churches is as great as betwixt copulsive conformity vnto the service book and ceremonyes , which is your estate , and voluntary submission vnto the gospell by which all & every member of them is ioyned to the Church , and as is betwixt the reigne of one Lord Bishop over many Churches , and the government of a Presbytery or company of Elders over one .

And if you would take viewe of this difference nearer home , do but cast your eyes to your next neyghbours of Scotland & there you shall see the most zealous Christians chusing rather to loose liberty , country , and life then to stoop to a far more easy yoke then you bear . Yea what need I send you out of your owne horizon ? The implacable & mortall hatred the Prelates bear vnto the Ministers and people wishing the government and Ministery receaved in the reformed Churches proclaymes aloud the vtter emnity betwixt them , & your vnreformed Church of England , of which I pray you hear with patience what some of your own have testified . Those that will needs be our Pastors and spirituall fathers Answer to D. Bancrofts slanders . are become beasts as the Prophet Ieremy sayth . And if we should open our mouthes , to sue for the true shepheards and overseers indeed vnto whose direction we ought to be committed , the rage of these wolves is such as this endeavour would almost be the price of our lives . And do these Churches like sisters go hand in hand together as is pretended ?

Now for vs , where Mr B. affirmeth that wee published our confession but without allowance , if I saw not his frowardnes in the things he knowes , I should marvayl at his bouldnes in the things whereof he is ignorant , we published the confession of our fayth to the Christian Vniversityes in the low countryes and els where , entreating them in the Lord , eyther to convince our errours by the word of God ( if so any might be found , ) or if our testimony in theyr iudgments agreed with the same word , to approve it eyther by wryting , or silence , as they thought good . Now what Vniversity , Church , or person amongst them hath once enterprized our conviction ? which without doubt some would have done ( as with such haeretiques or schismatiques as arise amongst them ) had they found cause ?

Thus much of the learned abroad : in the next place Mr B. drawes vs to the learned at home , from whose dislike of vs he takes his fifth Likelyhood , which he thus frameth .

The condemnation of this way by our divin●s both living and dead , The 5. Likelyhood against whom either for godlynes of life , or truth of doctrine , otherwise the● for being theyr opposites , they can take no exception .

No mervayl : we may not admit of partyes for iudges : how is it possible we should be approved of them in the things wherein we witnes against them ? And if this Argument be good or likely , then is it likely that neyther the reformists have the truth in the Church of England , nor the Prelates , for there are many and those both godly and learned , which in their differences do oppose , and that very vehemently the one the other .

Now , as for myne owne part , I do willingly acknowledge the learning & godlynes of most of the persons named by Mr B. & do honour the very memory of some of them , so do I neyther think them so learned , but they might erre ; nor so godly , but in their error they might reproch the truth they saw not . I do indeed confesse to the glory of God , and myne owne shame , that a long tyme before I entered this way , I took some tast of the truth in it by some treatises published in iustification of it , which ( the L. knoweth were sweet as hony vnto my mouth ; and the very principall thing , which for the tyme quenched all further appetite in me , was the over-valuation which I made of the learning and holynes of these , and the like persons , blushing in my selfe to have a thought of pressing one hayr bredth before them in this thing , behynde whom I knew my selfe to come so many miles in all other things ; yea and even of late tymes , when I had entered into a more serious consideration of these things and ( according to the measure of grace received ) serched the scriptures , whether they were so or no , and by searching found much light of truth , yet was the same so dimmed and overclouded with the contradictions of these men and others of ●he like note , that had not the truth been in my heart as a burning fyre shut vp in my bones Ier. 20. 9. had never broken those bonds of ●lesh and blood , wherein I was so streytly tyed , but had suffered the light of God to have been put out in myne owne vnthankfull heart by other mens darknes .

This reverence every man stands bound to give to the graces of God in other men , that in his differences from them , he be not suddaynly nor easily perswaded , but that being iealous of his owne hart , he vndertake the examination of things & so proceed , with fear , and trembling , & so having tryed all things , keep that which is good . 1. Thes. 5. 21. So shall he neither wrong the graces of God in himselfe , not in others . But on the othersyde for a man so farr to suffer his thoughts to be conjured into the circle of any mortall man or mens iudgment , as eyther to feare to try what is offered to the contrary , in the ballance of the sanctuary , or fynding it to bear weight , to feare to give sentence on the Lords syde , yea though it be agaynst the mighty , this is to honour men above God , and to advance a throne above the throne of Christ , who is Lord and King for ever .

And to speak that in this case which by dolefull experience I my selfe have found , many of the most forward professors in the kingdome are wel nigh as superstitiously addicted to the determinations of their guids and teachers , as the ignorant Papists vnto theyrs , accounting it not onely needles curiosity , but even intollerable arrogancy to call into question the things receaved from them by tradition .

But how much better were it for all men to lay asyde these & the like prejudices , that so they might vnderstand the things which concern theyr peace , and seeing with theyr own eyes , might live by theyr owne fayth .

And for these famous men here named by Mr B. ( with whose oppositions as with Zidkijahs horns of iron he would push us here and every where ) ; as we do beare theyr reproofs with patience , & acknowledg theyr worthes without envy , or detraction , so do we know they were but men , and so through humayn fraylty might be abused as well ( or rather as ill ) to support Antichrist in a measure , as others before them have been , ( though godly , and learned , as they . ) It will not be denyed but the fathers ( as they are called ) Ignatius , Irenaeus , Tertullian ▪ Ciprian , Ambrose , Ierom , Austin , and the rest were both godly and learned ; yet no man ( if he have but even saluted them ) can be ignorant , what way ( though vnwittingly ) they made for the advauncement of Antichrist which followed after them : And if they notwithstanding theyr learning and godlines thus vshered him into the world , why might not others ( and that more likely ) though learned and godly as the former , help to beare vp his trayne ? espcially considering , that as his rising was not , so neyther could his fall be perfected at once . And for vs , what do we more or otherwise for the most part , then walk in those wayes into which divers of the persons by Mr B. named , have directed vs by the word of God , in manifesting vnto vs by the light thereof what the ministery , goverment , worship , and fellowship of the Gospell ought to be ? we then being taught , and beleeving , that the word of God is a light & a lanthorne not onely to our eyes , but to our feet & pathes ( as the psalmist speaketh ) Psal. 119. 105. cannot possibly conceave how we should iustly be blamed by these men for observing the ordinances which themselves not onely acknowledged , but contended for , as appoynted by Christs testament to be kept inviolable till his appearing , as some of them have expresly testifyed .

To conclude , let not the Christian reader cast our persons , & the persons of our opposites whither these or others , in the ballance together , but rather our cause , and reasons with theyr oppositions and the grounds of them , and so with a steady hand , & vnpartiall ●y wey and poyze cause with cause , that so the truth of God may not be prejudiced by mens persons , nor held in respect of them .

And to your marginall note , viz. that ●●ne of vs whom you call guids did fall to this course before wee were in trouble and could not inioy our liberty as we desired , I do onely answer this one thing , that all and every one of vs might have inioyed both our liberty , and peace at the same wofull rate with you and your fellowes .

The Lords judgment giving sentence with him and his 6. Likelyhood . Church against us .

But wherein appeares that Mr B ?

● . By the blessing of God ( you tell vs ) vpon your ministery , by which people Mr B. are wonne truly to sanctification of life , and that we ( on ●●e contrary ) work but vpon the labours of other men .

1. Considering the multitude of Ministers in the kingdome Answer . and theyr long continuance in theyr Ministery , there is in the most parts of the land no such cause of so loud boasts as are h●re made .

There is nothing more common both in the sermons and wrytings of the forwarder sort , then their complaints how little good theyr preaching hath done , howsoever with vs for advantage they plead the contrary .

But let it be as Mr B. sayth that they win men to sanctification of life , and that we work but vpon theyr labours , his owne words shall iudge him , wherin he doth directly overthrow that he would establish , & establish that he would so fayn overthrow .

The Ministers of the Church of England do win men to true sanctification of life , then the people over whome they are set are not truely sanctified , then not true saynts , then no true members of the Church : and therefore that no true body of Christ consisting of such members .

Wee work vpon other mens labours : and so true ordinary Elders do : whose office stands in feeding , and not in begetting . The Elders which the Apostles ordeyned were set over them which † † Act. 14. 23. beleeved in the Lord ; and* the overseers or Bishops made by the holy Ghost were over such a ●lock , as all whereof were purchased with the blood of Christ , ( so far as men could iudge . ) We do not dispise Act. 20. 28 . the conversion of a sinner ( as Mr B. odionsly traduceth vs , ) but do with men and Angels blesse the Lord for that mercy vpon our selves & others , onely weedare not stand Ministers to an vnconverted people nor dispence vnto them the holy things of God , to which we know they have no right , how bold soever Mr B. and his brethren make with the Lord and his ordinances this way . And so I passe to the second proof .

2 The blessing of God assisting vs walking in our way with the reformed Mr B. Churches hath from Luthers time made prosperous our way by him , and other glorious instruments , and in few yeares spread the truth to many nations , &c.

He that would not in the words before going work vpon the Answer . labours of other men , will now make boast of them : but in stead of proving his likelyhoods by this dealing , he is iustly to be reproved of two falshoods .

The one is , that he wil bear the world in hand that his way , & the way of the reformed Churches are one , whereas the wayes of the Church of England wherein we forsake her , do directly and ex diametro , crosse and thwart the wayes of the reformed Churches : as appeares in these three mayne heads .

1. The reformed Churches are gathered of a free people ioyned together by voluntary profession without compulsion of humane lawes . On the contrary the Church of England consists of a people forced together violently by the lawes of men into their Provinciall , Diocesan and Parishionall Churches ( as their houses stand ) be they never so vnwilling or unfit . 2. The reformed Churches do renounce the Ministery of the Church of Engl: as she doth theirs : not admitting of any by vertue of it to charge of soules : ( as they speak ) where on the contrary all the masse-preists made in Queen Maryes dayes , which would say their book-service in English , were continued Ministers by the same ordination which they received from the Popish Prelates . 3. The government by Archbishops , Lord Bishops , and their substitutes in the Church of England is abhor●ed and disclaymed in the reformed Churches as Antichristian : as is on the contrary the Presbyterian government ( in use there ) by the Church of England refused , as Anabaptisticall , and seditious .

Now if Mr B. can at once walk in so many & so contrary wayes , he had need have as many feet as the Polypus hath .

Secondly , understanding by his Churches way such doctrines & ordinances as wherein we oppose it it is an empty boast to affirm that the same is spread into other nations . Which are the nations , or what may be their names , which eyther do reteyn or have received the Prelacy , Ministery , service book , canons and confused commixture of all sorts now in vse in the Church of England ?

But Mr B. having ( as he boasts ) God , Angels , and men on his side proceeds in the next place to plead agaynst vs Gods iudgments , who seemeth ( as he sayth ) from the first beginning to be offended with our course .

And intending principally in this whol discourse to oppresse vs with contumelyes , & by them to alienate all mens affections from vs , he ra●eth together into this place , as into a dung-hil of sla●der and misreport whatsoever he thinks may make vs and our cause stink in the nostrels of the reader . And so forging some things in his own brayne , and enforcing other things ( true in themselves ) with most odious aggrevations , he presents vs to the view of the world , with such personall infirmities , and humayn fraylties written in our foreheads , as the Lord hath le●t vpon the sonnes of men for their humbling . And the world wanting spirituall eyes & beholding the Church of Christ with the eyes of flesh & blood , & seing it compassed about with so many infirmities , & falling into so many & manyfold tryals and temptations , is greatly offended , & passeth vnrighteous judgement vpon the servants of God , and blasphemeth their most holy profession .

But let all men learn not to behould the Church of Christ with carnall eyes , which like fearfull spyes will discourage the people , but with the eyes of fayth and good conscience , which like Ioshua and Caleb will speak good of the promised Land , the spirituall Canaan , the Church of God . But to the poynt .

That Mr B. may make sure work he strikes at the head , and whetteth his toung like a sword , and shooteth bitter words like arrowes at such principall men , as God hath raysed vp in this cause , whereof some have persevered , and stood fast vnto death , others have fallen away in the day of temptation , whose end hath been worse ●hen theyr beginning .

The first person in whome he instanceth is one Boulton , touching whom he wryteth thus : that he being the first broacher of this way Mr B. came to as fearefull an end as Iudas did : adding therevpon , that God suffereth not his speciall instruments called forth otherwise then after a common course to come to such ends .

To this I do first answer , that neither this man was nor any other Answ. of vs is called forth by the Lord otherwise then after a common course : even that which is common to all Gods people , which is to come out of Babylon , and to bring theyr best gifts to Syon for the buylding of the Lords temple there .

It is true that Boulton was ( though not the first in this way ) an Elder of a separated Church in the beginning of Queen Elizabeths dayes , and falling away from his holy profession recanted the same at Pauls Crosse , & afterwards hung himself as Iudas did ▪ And what marvayl if he which had betrayed Christ in his truth , as Iudas did in his person , came to the same fearefull end which Iudas did ?

Nay rather the patience and long suffering of God is to be mervayled at that others also , who eyther have embraced this truth and after faln from it , or refused to submit vnto it when they have both seen and approved it , have not been pursued by the same revengefull hand of God . And for the promise of Gods presence with his , Gen. 12. 3. Math. 28. 20. Ios. 1. 9. it must ever be taken conditionally , viz. whylest they are with him and do his work faythfully as they ought , and no further .

Now touching Browne it is true which Mr B. affirmeth that as he forsook the Lord so the Lord forsook him in his way : and so he did his owne people Israel many a tyme . And if the Lord had not forsaken him he had never so returned back into Egypt as he did to live of the spoyles of it , as is sayd he speaketh .

And for the wicked things ( which Mr B. affirmeth ) he did in this way , it may well be as he sayth ▪ and the more wicked things he committed in this course , the ●esse like he was to continue long in it , and the more like to returne againe to his proper centre the Church of England where he should be sure to find companions ynough in any wickednes , as it came to passe .

Lastly to let passe the vniversall Apostasy of all the Bishops , Ministers , students in the Vniversityes , yea and of the whole Church of England in Queen Maryes tyme ( a handfull onely excepted in comparison ) which the Papists might more colourably vrg against Mr B. than he some few instances against vs ) the fall of † † Mat. 26. 14. 19. & 47. 48. 49. & 27. 3. 4. 5. Iudas an Apostle , of * * Act. 6. 5. with Rev. ● 15. Nicholas one of the first 7 Deacons , of † † 2 Tim. 4. 10. Demas one of Pauls speciall companions in the Ministery , do sufficiently teach vs that there is no cause so holy , nor calling so excellent , which is not subject to the invasion of paynted , and deceiptfull hyppocrites , whose service the Lord notwithstanding may vse for a tyme till theyr whyting be worne of , & then leave them to their own deceavable ●usts , which will work theyr most wofull downfall : thereby warning his people not to repose too much vpon any mortall man in whome there is no stedfastnes , but to cast theyr eyes vpon him a●one and vpon his truth which chaungeth not .

Of Mr Barrow and Mr Greenwoods spirit of rayling ( as this man rayleth against them ) in another place . Onely let the indifferent reader iudge whither Mr B. in blazing abroad the personal infirmityes of his adversaries without any occasion , neyther sparing the living nor the dead , have not come to the very highest pitch of the most natural rayling that may be . A practise which all sober mynded men do abhor from .

The next that comes in Mr B. way are the two brethren Mr Francis & Mr George Iohnson , whose contentions he exagge●ateth what he can to make both their persons and cause odious . True it is that George Iohnson together with his father taking his part , were excommunicated by the Church for contention arising ●t the first vpon no great occasion , wherevpon many bitter and ●eprochful termes were vttered both in word and writing , George ●ecōming ( as Mr B. chargeth him ) a disgracefull libeller .

It is to vs iust cause of humiliation all the dayes of our lives , ●hat we have given and do give by our differences such advantages ●o them which seek occasion agaynst vs to blaspheme the truth : ●hough this may be a iust iudgment of God vpon others which ●●ek offences , that seeking they may find them to the hardening of ●heyr hearts in evill . But let men turne theyr eyes which way soever ●hey will , and they shall see the same scandalls . Look to the first ●nd best Churches planted by the Apostles themselves , and be●old † † Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 1. 11. & 3. 3. G●l . 5. 1● . dissentions , scandall , strise , byting one of another .

About two hundred yeares after Christ , what a styrr was there about moone-shyne in water ( as we speak ) betwixt the East and West Churches , when Victor Bishop of Rome excommunicated the Churches in Asia for not keeping the Iewish feast of Easter at the same time with the Church of Rome ? And to come nearer our own tymes , how bitter was Luther agaynst Swinglius & Calvin in the matter of the Sacrament ? & how implacable is the hatred at this day of them whom they call Lutherans against the followers of the other partyes ?

Take yet one instance more and in it a view of the very height of humayne fraylty this way . The exiled Church at Frankford in Queen Maryes dayes bred and nourished within it self such contentious , as that one accused another to the Magistrate of treason , wherevpon Mr Knox was compelled to fly for feare of trouble .

I could also alledge to the present purpose the state of the reformed Churches amongst which we live , whose violent oppositions , & fiery contentions do far exceed all ours : but I take no delight in writing these things , neyther do I think the needles dissentions which have bene amongst vs the lesse evill because they are so common to vs with others , but these things I have layd downe to make it appeare , that Mr B. here vseth none other weapon agaynst vs then Iewes , and Pagans might have done against Christians , and Papists against such as held the truth against them , yea and then Atheists and men of no religion might take vp against all the professions and religions in the world .

And ( to go no further ) the irreconciliable emnity betwixt the Prelates & reformists about cap , surplice , crosse and the like , ( which the patrons of them acknowledg trifles ) might well have stopped Mr B. mouth from vpbrayding any with fyery contentions vpon small occasions .

And touching the heavy sentence of excommunication , by which the father and brother were dilivered vp to the Divill , as Mr B. speaketh , I desyre the reader to consider , that , if excommunication be ( as indeed it is ) so heavy a sentence and that by it the party sentenced be delivered over to the Divill , the Church of England is in heavy case which playes with excommunications as children do with rattles . And to allude to the word Mr B. vseth , in what a divelish case are eyther ▪ the Prelates and convocation house which have † † Can. 4. 6. 7. 8. ipso facto excommunicated all that speak or deale against theyr State , Ceremonyes & servise book , since the curse caus●es falls vpon the head of him from whom it comes , or the reformists , ( wherof M. B. would be one by fits ) & such as seek for and interprise reformation ? And for the particular in hand , howsoever it may seeme an odious thing vnto the naturall man , which savors not the things of God , nor the vnpartiall ordinances of the Lord Iesus , and would be a matter of wonder that a man should censure , or consent to the censuring of his father or brother , in the Church of England , where a good word of a freind or a small bribe may stay the excommunication of the grossest offender , yet if there be iust cause ( though with extraordinarie sorrow for the occasion ) † † ' Math. 10 37. Christ in his ordinance must be preferred before father and brother , yea & mother & sister also . Yea & it shal be the seal of his ministerie upon that sonne which in the observance of the word of the Lord , and in the keeping Deut. 33 8. 9. of his covenant sayth vnto his father , mother , brother , yea & own children , I know you not .

The next Mr. B. obiecteth is Mr Burnet , who , died of the plague in prison , whether he was committed by the Archprelate .

And so did Mr Holland and Mr Parker in the same City at the same tyme , as I remember : and so did Iunius and Trel●atius the two divinity professors at Leyden at an other tyme vpon the same infection . And was the plague Gods fearfull correcting rod vpon these men because their religion was false , or rather would any man knowing the scriptures and the Lords dispensations towards his Church argue as this man doth ? * If iudgment thus begin at Gods house , what shall " 1 Pet. 4. 17. the end of them be which obey not the gospell of God ?

But if Mr B. will bring against vs all the persons which the Bishops have killed in their prisons by this and the like meanes ( as David did Vrijah by the sword of the Amonites ) he may overthwelm vs with witnesses : but his argument shal be much what of the same nature with that of the Caian haeretiques , which affirme that Cain was a good man , and conceaved by a superiour power vnto Abel , because he prevayled against him , and slew him .

Lastly for Mr Smyth , as his instability & wantonnes of wit is his syn , & our crosse , so let M. B. & all others take heed that it be not their hardning in evill .

Mr B. in proceeding to point out the hand of God writing heavy things against vs , chargeth us ( by Mr Whytes testimony ) with such notable crimes , and detestable vncleannesses , as from which they in the Mr B. Church of England eyther truely fearing God , or but making an apparent sh●w thereof are so praeserved by God , as they cannot be taynted with such evils , as some of vs oft times fall into .

As the witnes well ●its the cause and person alledging him , who ( according to the Proverb ) may ask his fellow , &c. so have his slaunders been answered as Mr Bernard knowes , whereof it seems the party himself is ashamed , and so might Mr B. have been , had he not been shameles in accusing the brethren .

Now for the things objected , it is first to be noted how Mr B. affirmeth , that none with them eyther truely fearing God , o● making an apparent shew thereof , falls into such notable crimes , &c. wherein he acknowledgeth that a great part of the Church of Engl: neyther truly feares God , not makes apparent shew of it . How then are all of them saynts by calling , and where is that profession of faith for which they are to be held true members of the Church ? And what detestable crimes the members of the Church of England fall into , ( if there were none other testimony ) the very gallowes , & gibbets in every country declare sufficiently , vpon which for treason , witchcraft , incest , buggery , rape , murders and the like , the members of that Church ( so living and dying ) do receive condigne punishment : Where with vs if any such enormities arise ( as what temptations have befallen any we are subiect unto the same ) those monsters ( without their answerable repentance ) are by the power of Christ cut of from the body , & do for the most part returne to their proper element the English synagogue .

But what if all were true which Mr B. avoucheth , what advantage hath he more against vs then the heathen Corinthians had against the Church there , where * * 1 Cor. 5. 1. such fornication was found , as was not once named among the Gentiles ?

Mr B. having thus handled ( as you see ) some particular , and principall persons , proceeds to set vpon the whole body in general , as if with the accuser of the brethren he had obteyned liberty to strike the same from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot with the boyles and borches of reproch : & therefore writeth that Mr B. If men be but inclinable to this way , they iudge the Minister to have lost the power of his Ministery , wherein the fault is in the alteration of their owne affections , and if they be once entered into it , they are then so bewitched , as that where before they were humble and tractable , they then become proud and wilfull , where before they could with vnderstanding discern betwixt cause and cause , they then lick vp all that comes from themselves as Oracles though never so absurd , where before they could feel in themselves lively markes of the children of God , & so iudge of others , they then are perswaded against former fayth to think that neyther themselves had , nor others have any outward markes of the children of God .

Let the reader here observe in the first place that Mr B. accounts Ans. all them inclinable to this way which dislike comformity & subscription in the Ministers ; for them onely D. Downame ( whose Epistle before his second sermon he quotes in the margent ) entendeth , & they only are the men which iudge the confirming Ministers to have lost the power of their Ministery . And that their iudgment is most sound generally of such Ministers as having formerly refused ceremonyes & subscription do afterward bow vnto the same , all men of vnderstanding do discern .

To the chalenge of pryde and wilfulnes vpon them in this way though before they were humble and tractable I do answer , that as true humility is ever commendable so is there also a sinful subiection and submission of mynd , by which spirituall tyrants according to theyr fleshly wisdom in voluntary religion would rule over the consciences of the simple , of which the Apostle warneth vs , Col. 2. 18. which superstitious humility or humble superstition if the servants of God begin to shake of & to stand for that liberty so dearly bought by Christ , and so highly commended by the Apostles of Christ , then begin these imperious Maysters to rage , thinking by reproches to compell them againe under that subiection , in which by former delusions they could not conteyn them . Thus dealt the bloody Bishops with the servants of God in Queen Maries dayes , calling them proud , wilfull , conceyted , & what evill not ? and very well do the like accusations become Mr B. mouth in the like case .

Whether our opinions ( which we are charged by Mr B. to lick vp as Oracles ) be absurd or no , will appeare in the discussing of them in the sequell of the book : in the mean whyle this is most true and vndeniable , that a great part of the splene vttered against vs in this invective grew from this very cause , that sundry of his hea●ers would not lick vp whatsoever he powred out vnto them though bitter as gall : as that Ministers were not brethren properly , that the Church had some power to excommunicate because the Minister ( as the officials exequutioner ) might read the sentence , that the Churchwardens were Elders , the midwyves widdowes , and many the like , which to reckon vp is to confute sufficiently .

Lastly it is a great wrong which Mr B. offereth vs in affirming , that if we be once in this fraternity ( as he scoffeth at our holy covenant ) we then dislike our former graces , and ar content to be perswaded against our Mr B. former fayth and feeling in our selves of the lively markes of the children of God , & all because we were as a dear without the compasse of our Park , as he speaketh .

We do with all thankfulnes to our God acknowledg , and with Answ. much confort remember those lively feelings of Gods love , & former graces wrought in vs , & that one special grace amongst the rest by which we have been enabled to drawe ourselves into visible Covenant , and holy communion . Yea with such comfort and assurance do we call to mynde the Lords work of old this way in vs , as we doubt not but our salvation was sealed vp vnto our consciences by most infallible marks and testimonyes ( which could not deceave ) before we conceaved the least thought of separation ; and so we hope it is with many others in the Church of Engl. yea and of Rome too .

And the more ample measure of grace , and fullnes of assurance that any man hath receaved of the Lord , the more carefully is he to endeavor in all good conscience the knowledge & obedience of all and every one of the holy commaundements of God , and not to satisfy himselfe in his present feelings , thinking his salvation sure enough , and so his obedience full enough ( for this were to serve God for wages as hypocrytes do ) but rather with the Apostle † † Phi. 3. 13. 14. forgetting those things which are behynd , and forcing to those things which are before , let him follow hard to the mark for the price of the high calling of God in Christ Iesus . And whatsoever Mr B. iudgeth of a deer without the Parke pale wherein he should be , sure it is that he is none of Christs sheep ( visibly or in respect of men ) which is without Christs sheepfold . For * * Ioh. 10. 1● there is one sheepsould , and one sheepheard .

The last coniecture gathered agaynst our cause is , 7. Likelyhood .

The ill successe it hath had these very many yeares , being no more increased , where the encreasings of God are great , &c.

As it is alwayes safer to proceed by the causes & reasons of things Answ. then by theyr events and successe , so especially is this rule of vse in " Math. 7. 14. the case of religion , whose way as it is in it selfe narrow and found by few , how much more being streytned by the fyery persequutions of the wicked world .

Indeed the Church of England hath advantage of vs and ( as I suppose ) of all the Churches in the world for monstrous speedy growth , and encrease , for that of a Synagogue of Satan consisting of Popish Idolaters , and cruel murderers of the saynts , it grew fro top to toe into a true and intire body of Christ of a suddayn , & before the greatest part of it so much as heard the gospel preached in any measure for their conversion .

But consider herein M. B. dealing : He spares no vngodly means in this his book , and otherwayes , by slaundering our persons , by falsyfying our opinions , by exaggerating our infirmities , by incensing the Magistrate against vs , to suppresse vs , and yet reprocheth vs because we grow no faster : dealing with vs much what as the Iewes did with Christ when they blindfolded him first , & then bad him prophesie who smote him , Luk. 22. 64.

But let it be as Mr B. would have it , that the cause of religion is to be measured by the multitude of them that professe it , yet must it further be considered , that religion is not alwayes ●own & reaped in one age : * * Ioh. 4. 37. One soweth and another reapeth . Iohn Husse and Ierom of Prage finished their testimony in Bohemia , and at Constance a hundred yeres before Luther , & Wickliffe in England wel nigh as long before them , and yet neyther the one nor the other with the like successe vnto Luther .

And the many that are already gathered by the mercy of God into the kingdome of his sonne Iesus , & the nearnes of many more through the whol land ( for the regions are white vnto the harvest ) do promise within lesse then an hundred yeres ( if our sinnes & theirs make not vs and them vnworthy of this mercy ) a very plenteous harvest .

That wee have been here and there vp and down without sure footing , is our portion in this present evil world common to vs with the more worthy servants of God going before vs , who* have wandred in wildernesses Heb. 11. 38 and mountaines and dennes and caves of the earth .

The sa●ne answer may serve for that other approbation of vs , That , wee onely have toleration in a place , where the enemies of Christ may be as well as wee . Yea though we were not so much as tolerated , but on the contrary persecuted to the death , where the enemies of Christ were not onely tolerated but even approved yea the persequuters of vs , for the cause of Christ , what were this but to partake in the fellowship of his afflictions with the holy Prophets and Apostles , and other his most faithful servants . And I wil tel you Mr B. in the presence of God what my perswasion is in this case , that as we have onely toleration in the City where we live , where the enemies of Christ are tolerated with vs , so all that truely feare God whether Ministers or private people have onely toleration in your Church , & no approbation by the canons and constitutions of it .

And for the leading of the people out of one nation into another of a strange language , it is our great crosse ( but no syn at all ) and should rather move you and others to compassion towards vs , then thus to insult over vs in our exile . But your addition , that we do this without compulsion is most shameles , you your self both beholding and furthering our most violent persecution . But see your equal dealing with vs , whilst we taryed in the kingdom you blamed vs because we got vs not gone , now we are gone you find fault we tarry not .

For your marginall note that , Israel left not Egypt without Pharaohs leave , nor the Iewes Babylon without Cyrus his consent . To let passe the leave which Pharaoh gave the Israelites to depart , when to reduce them back , he and his people followed them into the sea ; they could not depart sooner ( though they would ) being held in bondage by their enemies , yet when Moses was in daunger of his life as we are , he fled as we do . Exod. 2. 15.

Besides , the Israelites had the certayn known time of their captivities limitted & prescribed by God , which they were to tary . Gen. 15. 13. 14. Exod. 12. 40. 41 Ier. 25. 11. 12. Dan. 9. 2. Ezra 1. 1. which is no way our case .

And what other do we in flying then the holy Prophets Exod. 2. 15 1 Sam. 18. 10. & 27. 1. 2. 1 King . 9. 3. Act. 9. 25. and Apostles have done before vs , and then the Protestants did in Queen Maries reigne , that fled to Frankford , Geneva , and other places , where they understood not the language of other nations ? yea then the Lord Iesus himself hath sanctifyed not onely “ “ Mat. 10. 23. by his commaundement , or license at the least , but also in his owne person † † Mat. 2. 13. 14. flying into a Aegypt in his mothers armes ?

Reason see I none why this man should thus blame vs for our flying , except with the Montanists he thought flight in the time of persecution unlawfull .

Lastly , Mr B. concludeth his likelihoods with a cursed farewell , which ( saith he ) we leave in all places , like a scorching flame swinging where it comes , so as the growth of all things are hindred by it .

And this observation he fathers upon me though in truth it be his owne bastard . I affirmed in deed that where this truth came , it left the places barrayn of good things in taking away the best sort of people , but this I spake to no such purpose as is here insinuated .

The scorching flame which hinders all things in the Church of England is the Prelacy , to which ( by vniversall and infallible observation ) no man applyes himself , no nor enclynes , but with a sensible decay of the former graces which he seemed to have . He that but once enters into the High preists hall to warme himselfe at the fyre there , shall scarce return without a scorched conscience .

Having formerly viewed Mr B. his bare probabilities , we will now come to debate his reasons against separation . The first sort whereof are grounded vpon the entrance into this cause , which he makes very sinfull , and cursed , because of the great evils , which ( sayth he ) ensue therevpon . And the first of these imputed evills is ,

That we not onely disclayme and conde●n● the corruptions and notorious Mr Bern. wicked , but withall forsake all Christian profession amongst them , casting off the word by which wee were made alive , the ministers our fathers which have begot vs , yea and all fellowship of the godly with them , and so account them ever false Christians , and Idolaters , having a false faith , false repentance , & false baptisme .

And from these evils thus suggested he both disswades the reader with some passionate Rhyme in the margent , and deterrs him by sundry bitter curses cast out against vs both in the margent and text . Answer .

There is no truth of doctrine , nor ordinance of Christ taught or practised in the Church of England which we enioy not , with farr more libertie , better right , and greater purity then any person in England doth or can , as Mr Ber. knoweth right well ; & for the good graces of God in many , wee do both know , & acknowledge them , and it is our great grief ( though their owne fault ) that we cannot have communion with the persons in whom so eminent graces of God are : and if there be any of them which are sory for our departure from the assemblies , we are much more sory ( & so have more cause ) for their continuance in the same . In which their estate whilst we withdraw ourselves from them , we do in no sort condemn their persons , ( which stand or fall to the Lord ) much lesse any good thing in them , or truth amongst them . It is one thing simply to condemn that which is good for evill , and another thing to forbeare the vse of it in the concrete , for the commixture of evil , from which in that vse it is inseparable .

When Paul forbad the Corinthians to eat and drink in the Idol temples , 1 Cor. 10. 20. ●1. he did not condemne meat , & drink . Neyther did the same Apostle when he directed the same Corinthians to excommunicate the incestuous person , and so to have no fellowship with him , 1 Cor. 5. enjoyne them to renounce the fayth which that person professed , or the baptisme which they with him had received .

And as a Church excommunicating an offender for some one scandalous sin and so refusing all communion with him , cannot be chalenged for renouncing or reiecting the faith which that person professeth , or any other personall good thing appearing in him ; so neyther may any person or persons forsaking a Church and all fellowship with it for some one or few iust causes , iustly be accused as renouncing or disclayming the other good things there remayning .

Lastly let me ask Mr B. whether he disclayme one God sub●●sting in three persons , & one Lord Iesus God and man , and withall , the Christian vertues of zeale , patience , temperance , humility ▪ meeknes , and the like . And why not he as well in refusing communion with the Church of Rome where these things are to be found , as we in disclayming the Church of Engl. where the same and other the like good things are known to be ?

Thus when a mans eyes are blynded , by partiality towards himselfe , and his mouth opened by mallice against his adversary , it is mervaylous to see what vnequall judgment he will passe .

But least Mr B. in charging our beginning ( as he doth ) as accursed , vncharitable , vnnaturall , and vngodly , might seeme to curse where God curseth not , he annexeth certayn portions of scripture , which he also sets downe at large , as though they made largely against vs , and our separation , and the end why he alleadgeth them is to prove that there is cause of reioycing in the Church of England . The scriptures are these . Rom. 15. 17. 18. Act. 10. 34. 35. Rom. 14. 17. 18. To which I do answer first in generall .

There may be & oft tymes is cause of reioycing in the events and issues of things by a speciall hand of God determining them , though the secundary meanes and instruments which the Lord vseth for the producing , and bringing forth of these issues & events ( as of light out of darknes ) be most accursed . Wherein more , or els , hath a christian heart cause of reioycing then in the death of Christ ? And yet what can be imagined more abominable then the meanes and instruments of working it .

But to speak nearer Mr B. purpose . If some Iesuite , or other , sent by the Pope into America amongst the Pagans and Infidels , should there perswade any to beleeve & confesse one God , and his sonne Iesus Christ made man for the redemption of the world , & that they should also give vp their lives for these truthes , there were cause of reioycing in theyr testimony , and yet I suppose Mr B. ( knowing as he doth ) would be loath to have communion in the Iesuits Ministery . More particularly . The Apostle Rom. 15. 17 18. in commendation of his Apostleship layes downe the effects of it and how great cause of reioycing he had , that God by his ministery had planted the Churches of the Gentiles whom he further describes by theyr obedience in word and deed .

And how serves this for the Church of England ? Thus. It serves first to exclude all those word Saynts for whom Mr B. pleads so much in his book .

Secondly it serves to shew what small cause there is of reioying for the English Churches being planted of such vniversally & so still continuing as are indeed abhominable and disobedient , & to every good work reprobate .

The second Scripture is Act. 10. 34. 35. Of a truth I perceave that God is no accepter of persons , but in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousnes is accepted of him . And is it so ?

What sacrilegious presumption then is it in the Church of Enland to compell God to accept of persons , and to accept for his people & servants such as neither fear him , nor work righteousnes but the contrary ? to offer vp theyr persons & sacrifices to him in the name of Christ in whome they have no portion ? to seale vp the covenant of his grace and peace vnto them in the sacraments with whom it never came into his hart to strike hand , neyther hath he peace with them ?

The third Scripture is Rom. 14. 17. 18. The kingdome of God is not meat , not drink , but righteousnes , and peace and ioy in the Holy G. for whosoever in those things serveth Christ is acceptable to God , &c.

Hence ( to let passe the drift of the Apostle in this place els where opened ) thus much must necessarily follow , that where righteousnes , and peace , and ioy in the Holy Ghost are not , nor men in those things serving Christ , there the kingdome of God is not , nor these men his subiects . And where Gods kingdom is not , there is the kingdome of Satan , and they that are not the subiects of the one , are the slaves of the other . And so I leave it to the godly reader to iudge whither the assemblyes in England gathered at the first , and at this day consisting of such persons for the most part as do not thus nor in these things viz: righteousnes peace and ioy in the Holy Ghost serue Christ , but the contrary , can be rightly & by the word of God accounted the kingdome of God & Church of Christ . Thus the 3. Scriptures which Mr B. stretched out like a threfold coard to hold men in the assemblies , are in truth and in their right meaning as a three stringed whip to scourge those that fear God out of them .

With such a renunciation of the truth must be interteyned much vntruth Mr B. ( saith Mr Ber. ) as first thou must beleeve their way to be the truth of God , then condemne our Church as a false Church : when themselves have published that the differences betwixt vs and them are but corruptions . N●w corruptions , do not make a false Church but a corrupt Church , a● corruptions in a man make but a corrupt , but no false man .

If we beare witnes of our selves our witnes is not true , Answ. but if the word of God beare witnes with vs , and against you , it must stand . And for the advauntage which you suppose you have gayned at vs , where we acknowledge our differences to be onely your corruptions , it will nothing at all enrich you , or better your Church : For there are corruptions essentiall , and in the very causes constitutive , matter , & forme aswell as els where : there are corruptions which eat out the very heart of a thing , as well as such as hinder the working onely , or steyn the work . And we may truely say of all the abhominable doctrines and devises in Rome , that they are but so many corruptions of those pure truthes , & holy ordinances which that Church at the first received from Christ the Lord .

And for your similitude of a man , whom you say corruptions make not a false man , but a corrupt man , you are deceived in it , whether you consider a man naturally or morally . Naturally , what is death but the corruption of the man ? as generatio & corruptio are opposed . And what is rottennes but the corruption of the body ? Now these do more then make a corrupt man , or corrupt body , they do destroy the very being . But consider a man morally ( as in the case of religion he must be considered ) & then morall corruptions & vices do eyther make a false man , or els a traytor , a theif , a cousener is a true man , which patronage I hope Mr B. will not vndertake .

The second rank of reasons which Mr B. brings against us are certayne greivous sinns wherewith ( he sayth ) all in our way are polluted , for Mr B. which according to our own principle no man may ioyn himselfe vnto vs .

The sins he nameth are , a renunciation of Gods mercy , and of all good things , and men with them , vnthankfulnes to God , and the Church , spirituall vncharitablenes , audacious censuring , a desire to hinder , yea to extinguish all the spirituall good they publiquely enioy , and a wish of destruction vnto the people , and the like .

Greivous accusations certaynly , but if to accuse be to convince Answ. who shal be innocent ? not the Lord Iesus himselfe , nor his holy Apostles : whose examples in vndergoing the like reproches , and in patient bearing of the same at the hands of wicked men , if we had not before our eyes , eyther our harts would break in vs for sorrow , or we should be provoked to render reproach for reproach , & so Mr B. sin against God .

Our first supposed sin is that wofull entrance before named , for which I refer the reader to that which hath been before answered .

But they in England ( sayth Mr B. ) enter by baptisme renouncing Ans. the Divill and sin . So do the Papists as loud as they , and with as many godfathers and godmothers , crossing and blessing themselves against the Divill , and all his works as much as they do . And for the renunciation of Gods mercy and all good men , and good things in them in the Church of England : because we refuse communion there , it is a foule charge layd vpon vs , but to which we are no more lyable , then were the Levites when they forsook Ieroboams Church and repayred to Ierusalem † † 2 Ca. ●1. 13. 14. the place which the Lord had chosen . For in Israell which they forsook were to be found both good persons and things . 1 King . 14. 13. and 19. 18.

Now where in the last place Mr B. chargeth vs not to make vnclean what God hath cleansed Act. 10. 1● . we on the contrary advise him not to account that clean , which sinn and Antichrist doth defyle .

Let him or any other man on earth shew vnto vs by the word of God that a Church gathered and consisting of persons for the most part defyled with all manner of impiety , is clensed by God , or that the dayly sacrifice the service book is as a lamb without spot , or that the spirituall courts so miscalled , are sanctified of God for the government of his kingdome on earth , or that the Court keepers the Archflamins and Flamins the Provinciall and Diocesan Bishops with theyr Chauncelers Commissaryes Archdeacons and other officers are his holy ones vpon whome he hath put his Vrim and Thummim , and then let vs beare our rebuke if we do not returne to the Church of England and humble ourselves vnder her hand , as Hagar did her selfe vnder the hand of her mistresse , Gen. 16. 9.

The second sinn wherewith Mr B. chargeth vs is our great vnthankfulnes , 1. to God that begat vs by his word , eyther by denying our conversion ●r Mr B. els accounting it a false conversion , 2. towards the Church of England our mother whom we desire to make a whore before Christ her husband , condemn ●●r &c. And this accusation he shutteth vp with most bitter execrations against vs as vnworthy to breath in the ayre .

For the thankfulnes of our harts vnto the Lord our God for his Answ. vnspeakeable mercies we leave it vnto him that knowes the hart , and for the manifestation of it vnto men , we referr them to our entyre ( though weak ) obedience to the whol revealed wil of God , and ordinances of Christ Iesus , which we take to be the most acceptable sacrifice of thankfulnes which by man can be offered to the Lord .

And for our personall conversion in the Church of England we deny it not but do ( and alwayes have so done ) iudge and professe it true there : and so was Luthers conversion true in the Church of Rome , els could not his separation from Rome have been of faith or accepted of God .

The same may be sayd of all the persons and Churches in the world which have forsaken Rome .

Our third imagined , sinn is spirituall vncharitablenes appearing in our M. B. deep censures vpon all at least not inclinable vnto vs , condemning such as know not our way as blinded by the God of this world the Divell : such as se● it , & yeeld not vnto it , as worldlings , fearefull , convinced in conscience , & going on in presumptuous sin : such as forsake it having formerly enclyned vnto it , Apostates , and if they oppose it , godles persequuters , hunters after soules , such as shall certainly grow worse & worse , so as men shall say , God is revenged on them , &c.

If any one man have thus peremptorily defined eyther in word or writing , as Mr B. witnesseth , it was that one mans fault , and is not to be imputed to the rest of vs , more then Mr B. most malicious & hateful accusations in this book to all the Ministers , & people in the Church of Engl. wherof I doubt not but thowsands are ashamed , and to which they would be more vnwilling to subscribe , then he to the Bishops canons .

I for mine own part onely exhort all men in all places , as they look to be approved at that day when the secrets of all hearts shal be disclosed , that they deale faithfully in the Lords busines , & take heed they neyther forbeare through partiall praejudice , or fleshly feare to inquire after the truth nor with hould it in vnrighteousnes , if they have found it , especially that they oppose it not , eyther in hatred or contempt of the persons professing it , or in flattery of the Prelates and others of their trayne , whom most directly it impugneth . And for the rest whose harts ar vpright before the Lord , myne harty prayer is that according to theyr integrity their comforts may be , & that together with my self they may find mercy with the Lord for all those ignorances , & infirmityes wherewith the sonns of men ar compassed about in the dayes of their flesh .

And for you Mr B. where you take God to witnesse , and the Lord to iudge , that you do not oppose vs of hatred or mallice , nor of purpose to vex vs , or to encrease our afflictions knowing as you doe the terrours of the iudgments of the Lord , I would seriously advise you , considering what you have spoken and threatened vpon some personall provocations , to take heed you be not to bould with such deep protestations as these are nor please your selfe too much in them , because you fynd them sometimes profitable to serve your turne vpon simple people .

The second poynt of our vncharitablenes spirituall Mr B. makes , Mr B. a most vngodly desire ( as ever was heard of ) to have the word vtterly extintinguished amongst them , & Egiptian darknes to come over them , rather then it should be preached by such as do not favour our course .

And therevpon he inters into a large commendation of preaching the gospell , as though we eyther despised or vndervalued it : and on the other syde into a most base extenuation of the constitution of the Church and of orderly proceeding in preaching , as things little or nothing regarded by the Prophets , Apostles , and other holy men of God .

For this man thus to accuse vs as if we desired that the light of Answ. the gospel might be put out in the land , and that darknes might cover all , is a most vngodly & impious slaunder ( as ever was heard of ) and in truth one drop of that gall of bitternes which the Christian reader he confesseth in the preface is like to find in his book .

We are glad and do reioyce for every spark of knowledge kindled in the heart of any person in the land , beseeching him which is both the authour & finisher of all grace , that the same may break out into a perfect flame . But because we are taught , that the least evill may not be practised for the greatest good : Rom. 3. 8. nor a ly told for God . Iob. 13. 9. ( who needs not mans sin for the accomplishment of his righteousnes ) we advise all men to take heed how they adventure to tread the maze of their owne good meanings without warrant of Gods word , or to do that which is good in it self without a lawful calling vnto it , pleasing themselves in the vncertain events of things , which are onely in the hands of God : and rather to turn their feet from every evil way into the steppes of righteousnes commending by faith the issues , and events of things vnto the Lord , whom alone they concerne , and rather to chuse neyther to buy nor sell , then to receive the character or mark of the beast , or the number of his name , Rev. 13. 17. knowing that he which worshippeth the beast and his image , and receaves his character in his forhead or in his hand , shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God , of the pure wine powred into the cup of his wrath , and shal be tormented with fyre and brimstone in the sight of the holy Angels , and before the presence of the Lambe . Rev. 4. 9. 10.

And for the concluding of this point , I would onely demaund of Mr B. whether those godly ministers whom he brings in pag. 130 to bear down all before them , be not of that company which rather chuse to be silenced by the Prelates , yea & so perswade others also , then to submit to their ceremonies , & subscription . I think he wil not deny it , if he be asked the question . And do these godly Ministers there , or other in Engl. mynded as I speak desier that the word may vtterly be extinguished in the land , & that Egyptian darknes may come over all ? Indeed the Prelates so charge them as the cause of all Papisme , and Atheisme in the land ; but Mr B. ( I know ) iudgeth otherwise of them : and so would he do of vs , if the beame of mallice did not blynd his right ey , when he looked towards vs .

Now for the preaching of the word and gospell of salvation , as Mr B. doth but worthily and according to the excellency of it , magnify and advance the same , so doth he most iniuriously , and deceiptfully oppose it vnto the holy order within which the Lord hath rainged it , and to the true constitution of the Church and other the ordinances thereof , with which it consorteth necessarily by the Lords appoyntment , and so they make together a most heavenly harmony . And thus to set the ordinances of Christ at iarre amongst themselves , and in the commendation of one principall to bury the rest as vile , and vnnecessary , is a most effectuall delusion , and deep deceipt , by which the mistery of iniquity is much advantaged in the false assemblyes , and the hearts of the simple fast held in the snares of error , and impiety .

The Bishops & those of their sect do in their sermons & writings extoll prayer . But to what end ? That they may depresse preaching , and oppresse preachers , and so establish theyr service-saying Preists in the Ministery .

Mr. B. here , and so the forward sorte commonly will magnify preaching : but as he here , so they oft tymes with an evill ey to the right gathering , lawfull goverment , and orderly administration of the holy things of & in the church . Wel , the Lord sees this haulting on both sydes & will avenge the quarrell of his very meanest ordinance , & † † Math. 5. 19. least commandement vpon all these deceiptful workers . Who is wise that he may vnderstand these things , & prudent that he may take knowledge of them ? for the wayes of Iehovah are righteous , and the iust shall walk in them , but the rebells shall fall in them .

And for the preaching of the gospel would Mr B. but turne his eye a litle upon himself , and his nationall Church , he might finde that every text brought by him for the advancement of preaching ▪ is as a sworn evidence both against himself , & the Church for which he pleads .

The more needfull vision is , for which he quotes in the first place Prov. 29. 18. where vision is not , the people perisheth , or is made naked , the more desperate is the estate of the Church of England wherein the greatest part of the Parishes by far have dark midnight for vision : the more vnlawfull and vngodly is the ministery of that Church , to which preaching is but an accident , and no way essentiall or necessary ; the more accursed is the Prelacy of the same Church which for indifferent things and so not necessary ( as themselves acknowledg ) blynde the eyes and stop the mouthes of the best seers , and paynefullest preachers in all places . And if the order which Christ hath left in his Church be so vyle in Mr B. eyes in comparison of his vnorderly preaching , what can he say for his Lords the Bishops which for the orders devised by themselves & by their forefathers of Rome thrust out of so many Churches the ordinance of preaching ? A man would think Mr B. zeal should find room enough at home and in his owne Church , and not thus pursue beyond the ●●as a poore company of despised , and dispersed people .

But to the very poynt which Mr B. drives at . There is not one scripture alledged by him which iustifyes the preaching of the gospell out of a true ( much lesse in a false ) constitution . They do all and every one of them necessarily presuppose the same , howsoever he would separate the things which God hath ioyned together . Take one for example and that such a one , as he makes a pillar in his building . It is written and so by him alledged , Psa. 147. 19. 20. He shewed his word vnto Iacob , his statutes and his iudgments vnto Israell : He hath not so dealt with every nation , &c.

Here ( sayth Mr B. ) the Lord preferrs his word before a constitution , as a testimony of his speciall love . But vntruly . For in this very place the Lord prefers a constitution before his word , statutes , and iudgments as the cause why he gave them . For wherefore did the Lord shew his word vnto Iaakob , his statutes & iudgments vnto Israel , but because of their constitution ? that is , because Israel was the Lords peculiar people separated from all other nations , and received by the Lord into covenant , as no other nation was . Lev. 26. ●4 . 14. Exod. 19. 5. 6. Deut. 19. 10. 11. 12. &c. with Ron ▪ 3. 2. & 9. 4. Act. 2. 39. & 3. 23. how profanely soever this man doth debase and vilify the true constitution of the Church which he is like never to enioy , as Esau did the by●thright , wherewith the Lord never meant to honour him . Gen. 2● . 32. 33.

And amongst other debasements of the constitution of the Church he affirmeth pag: 55. that though an orderly proceeding ought to be had , yet that at no hand for want therof preaching ought to be left of , & to this end pag. 53. and 54. he violently haleth into the same guilt with himselfe the brethren of the dispersion Act. 8. 1. 4. 12. whom he chargeth in preaching the word , not to have stood vp●n every speciall poynt in entering so orderly vnto the work .

But as theyr enterance was most orderly for that being of a true constituted Church at Ierusalem & dispersed by persequution , they published the gospel in every place where they came , as any member of the Church may do , ( as grace is ministred , and occasion offered ) , so is it on the otherside a Babylonish presumption for any man vnder any praetence whatsoever , to enterprise the preaching of the gospell or any other work disorderly . † 1 Co. 14. 40.

The Apostle ( speaking especially of prophecying ) expresly commaunds , that all things be done according to order : how then dare any petty Pope , or proctor of Babylon dispence with or plead for disorder in this or any other ministration in the Church ? Mr B.

The last and highest degree of our vncharitablenes he reckons this that we are sorry and envious that the good things of God do prosper with them , & that the more religious men be in their way the more are we greived , and to this end he pretends Mr Barrowes abusing and scoffing at the graces of God , and holy exercises in such persons . Ans.

As we hold our selves bound to acknowledge all good things in all men and to honour them accordingly , 1 Pet. 2. 17. So must I here demaund of Mr B. as another hath done before me , what those good things are which so prosper ; Onely the Prelates prosper in the kingdome who with theyr ceremonious hornes & canons beat & batter down all that stands in their way . Of their prosperity against the truth we are sory , but not envious , being taught not to envy the works of iniquity , considering what suddayn , and certayne desolation shall fall vpon them . Psal. 37. 9. 10.

And ( by the way ) where Mr B. takes it for graunted , that the reformists are the most religious in the way of the Church of England it is cleane otherwise . The most absolute Formalists , & most strict vrgers of conformity are the most religious in the way of the Church of England : And as for the reformists theyr zeale ( to speak as the truth is , and as shall hereafter more fully be manifested ) is not in , nor for the way of the Church of England but a by path from it , which the Church of England ( considered in the formall constitution of it ) accounteth schism , and rebellion : but rather the same way in effect which we walk , if they were true to theyr own grounds , and durst practise what they have professed in theyr supplications , and admonitions to the Prince , and Parliament , & other their vnder hand passages , wherein they do playnly condemn the Prelacy for Antichristian , the service book as superstitious , the mixture of all sortes of people as confused , and so of the rest . And this Mr B. iustifyeth the obiections which you would so gladly prevent pag. 57. made by your brethren in the faith ( for so are the worst of them ) the prophane and secure worldlings , and Athiests , that men paynfull and conscionable in their Ministery and lives , do breed and further ( as you speak ) Brownistes and Brownisme . For proof hereof I will here insert a few things written & published both in former and latter tymes by such men , as I dare say Mr B. reckens amongst the painefull & conscionable Ministers .

Their words are these .

We have an Antichristian & Popish ordering of Ministers , strange from the word of God never heard of in the primitive Church but taken out of the Popes shop to the destruction of Gods kingdome . 2. Adm. to the Parl.

The names and offices of Archbishops , Archdeacons Lordbishops &c. are together with their goverment drawen out of the Popes shop Antichristian , divelish , and contrary to the scriptures . Parsons , Uicars Parish Preists , Stipendaryes &c. be byrds of the same fether . 2. Admo . to the Parliament .

The callings of Archbishops , Bishops , with all such be ra●●er members and parts of the whore and strumpet of Rome , then of the pure Uirgin and spouse of the immaculate Lamb. Mr Ch. Serm. vpon Rom. 12.

The calling of Bishops and Archbishops do onely belong vnto the Kingdome of Antichrist . Discovery of D. Ban. slaunders . pag. ●0 .

Our Diocesan and Provinciall Churches vsing Diocesan and Provinciall goverment and officers are contrary to Gods word and simply vnlawfull . Mr Iakob for reformation : Ass: 1.

There is no true visible Church of Christ but a particular congregation onely . Christian Offer . Prop. 4.

Every true visible Church of Christ or ordinary assembly of the faithfull hath by Christs ordinance power in it selfe imediately vnder Christ to elect , to ordayne , deprive , and depose theyr Ministers and to exequute all other Ecclesiasticall Censures . Ibid : Prop: 5.

The visible Church of Christ wheresoever it be hath the power of bynding and loosing annexed vnto it as our saviour Christ teacheth Math. 18. Discovery of D. Ban. slaunders . Preface .

We must needs say as followeth , that this book ( viz the Communion book ) is an vnperfect book culled and picked out of that Popish dunghill the masse book full of al abhominations . Adm : to Parl. Treat : 2.

Amongst vs the holy sacraments are communicated with the Papists , the holy misteryes of God prophaned , the Gentiles enter into the temple of God , the holy things are indifferently communicated with the clean and vncleane , circumcised and vncircumcised . A plaine declaration of ecclesiasticall discipline . pag. 172.

Now let the indifferent reader iudge whether these sayings with many moe of the like kinde do not most necessarily conclude , yea & naturally beget a separation from the goverment , Ministery , worship and communion of the Church of England : and whether these men in thus wryting have not opened the dore vnto vs , by which themselves enter not .

To the further charge of vncharitablenes layd against vs , as being Mr B. glad when they contend amongst themselves never praying for the peace & welfare of the ministery &c. I do answere , that we reioyce for all peace Answ. in truth amongst all men but for peace in iniquity , which is a wicked conspiracy , and fearful judgment of God we reioyce not , we pray not . Let Mr B. aske the godly Ministers with whose supply he backs his book , whither they reioice in his & other mens peaceable subscription & conformity ? or whither they could not rather have wished they had contended against the same ? yea let me ask Mr B. himselfe whither he reioyce in the peace of the representative Church of England the Convocation house , and in theyr vnanimous consent in framing and imposing their canons and constitutions ? or whither he would not rather clap his wings and craw for ioy , if the two Archprelates with the rest of theyr horned Clergy there , would oppose and crosse one another ? And let me ask him yet further for the wellfare of which order of Ministery he would have vs pray ? or whither he himselfe pray for the welfare of the Bishops ( except it be sometymes before theyr faces . ) And for vs to pray for the inferiour Ministery and not for the prelacy is to dally with God , and to blesse the branch , and not the root .

And in alledging ( as you do ) Act. 11. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. to prove that holy men have reioyced for the people receaving of the gospel and not at theyr standing in a constitution , you do injuriously separate things to be conioyned . For the same persons that received the gospell ioyned themselves in a constitution , or constituted Church as appeareth ver. 26. And it is expresly sayd , Act. 2. 41. that they that receaved the word were added to the Church , and being baptised they must needs be of a Church for baptism is not without , but within the Church and an ordinance given unto it .

And how profanely bould soever you ( Mr B. ) are to blaspheme the tabernacle of God which he hath pitcht amongst men , or visible Church framed according to the pattern given by a greater then Moses , yet is it good for vs to consider what the H. Ghost noteth , in the last verse of the forenamed Chap. that the Lord added to the Church from day to day such as should be saved . Neyther can you possibly produce one example or other proof in the scriptures of one man teaching the gospell but he was a member of a true Church , nor receiving it but he ioyned vnto one . And for the man that cast out Divels in Christs name but followed him not , Mark . 9. 39. he can no way help you for what purpose soever you alledge him .

For first he was a member of a true constituted Church the the Church of the Iewes , which was yet vndissolved . 2. he had no office but a gift . 3. his gift and calling to vse it , was extraordinary and miraculous .

Now for our love towards you , wherein you blame vs as defective , it is the same in generall which we beare towards all men , and more speciall according to the speciall bonds betwixt vs and you , and towards many very great both for the many good things we know to be in them , and vnder the hope also of their further progresse .

And for our prayers , as it is true that wee cannot pray for you as visible members of Gods Church , for God never gathered Church of the visible and apparent members of the Divel as the greatest part of yours were & are : so is it vnjustly insinuated against us that wee pray no otherwise for you than for Papists Atheists and the like . We pray for the perfecting of Gods work in you , and that as we think many of you his people in Babylon , so you may come out of her .

Our next brand of vncharitablenes is our accustomary excommunications Mr B. even for light offences in some , albeit others obstinate can be let passe . And to prove this he quotes Mr George Iohnson , & Mr White , the Answ. former an excommunicate himself , whom Mr B. also pag. 35. of his book calls a disgraceful libeller ; the other an vngodly apostate , whose accusations have been answered one by one . A fit evidence for such a plea and plaintife .

But if Mr B. ( knowing the fashions of the Church of England ) had but once remembred the saying of the Lord Iesus , Mat. 7. 3. 4. 5. he would never have accused other Ch: of vncharitable and rash excommunications , which if they be a mote in the Church of Amsterdam are a beam in the Church of England , wherein there is more daunger of excommunication to them that feare God then to any other flagitious persons whomsoever .

Indeed no man can challendge Mr B. & his Church of Worxsop for any such heady and rash excommunications , they are very moderate this way , and can beare in communion with them any graceles person whomsoever til his dying day , and then commit ful charitably the body of their deceased brother to the grave , with a devout prayer for his joyfull resurrection : so charitable are they both to the living and the dead .

But the thing which most grieves Mr B , and at which he hath greatest indignation Pag. 62. is , that we will not heare his sermons though he preach nothing but the true word of God . And so he desires to heare of vs , where the hearing of the true word of God onely preached is sinn and for bidden by Christ , or the Prophets or Apostles . For answer hereof I would know first whether Mr B. speaking here and in many other places of the true word of God do meane , that God hath a true word and a false word or rather bewray not an accusing conscience , that they in England have not the word truely taught , that is in a true office of Ministery ?

Now for the demaund ( referring the reader for more full satisfaction , to that which hath bene published at large by others ) I do answer , that as it was vnlawfull to † † Num. ●6 2 Ch. 26. 1 King . 12. communicate with Corah or with Vzziah though they burnt true incense , or with Ieroboams Preists though they offered true sacrifices , so is it vnlawfull to communicate with a devised ministery , what truth soever is taught in it .

Secondly the Lord hath promised no blessing to his word but in his own ordinance , though by his superaboundant mercy he oft tymes vouchsafe that which no man can chalendg by any ordinary promise .

Thirdly * * Tim. 5. ●2 . no man may partake in other mens sinns , but every Ministery eyther devised or vsurped is the sinn of him which exerciseth it . Rev. 18. 4. And as no good subiect would assist or communicate with any person in the administration of civil iustice to the Kings subiects ( no not though h● administred the same never so equally and indifferrently ) except the same person had commission from the King so to do : so neyther ought the subiects of the kingdome of Christ to partake with any person whomsoever in the dispensation of any spirituall thing ( though in it self never so holy ) without sufficient warrant and commission from the most absolute and sovereigne King of his Church Christ Iesus .

And where Mr B. speaks of hearing the true word of God onely preached , he intimates therin , that if we would heare him preach it would satisfy him wel , and so teacheth vs with himselfe and others to make a schisme in the Church in vsing one ordinance and not another .

It is all one whether a man communicate with the Minister in his pulpit or with the Chauncelor in his consistory , both of them minister by the same power of the Bishop . The Chauncelor may iudge iustly , & who knowes whither or no the Minister will teach truely ? And if he do not , but speak the vision of his owne heart , what remedy hath the Church or what can they that hear him do ? May they † † ● Tim. 5. 20. rebuke him openly according to his sin , and so bring him to repentance ? or must they not beare his errors yea his heresyes also during the pleasure of the Bishops , even their Lord , & his ?

And would you Mr B. be content your people should heare a masse Preist or Iesuite , though he professed as loud as you do , that he would teach the true word of God ? And think not scorne of the match , for you have the selfe same office with a masse Preist though refyned . If he be ordayned by a Bishop ( though it be the Bishop of Rome ) he may minister in any Church of England by vertue of that ordination . And besides masse Preists preach some and those the mayne truthes , and the Ministers in England neither do nor da●e preach all , no nor some which ( it may be ) the others do .

Is it not better then for the servants of the L. Iesus to exercise & aedify themselves according to the model of grace receaved , though in weaker measure , then to be so simple as to come to your feasts , though you cry never so loud vnto them , thinking that because your stoln waters are sweet , and your hidden bread pleasant , that they have no power to passe by , but must needs become your guests ?

Lastly Mr B. even to make vp the measure of his mallice , as he formerly reproached vs by the oppositions , & dissentions which he hath heard of amongst vs , so doth he here by the vnity and love which himselfe hath seen in vs , comparing it page 64. to the love of Familists , and Papists , and other wretched and graceles companions . So that belike whither we love or hate , whither we agree or disagree , this man wil be sure to fynd matter of reproch vnto vs , and of stumbling to himselfe , as the Iewes did both from Iohns austerity , and from Christs more sociable course of life , Math. 11. 18. 19. Mr B.

Our fourth sin is abusing the word , of which all are guilty by misalledging and wresting places of Scripture &c , and this Mr B. proves because some have accused some of the principall of vs with it .

If accusation be conviction Mr B. needs not speak of some or any Answ. other , he himselfe hath most mightily convinced vs , for he hath most hatefully accused vs of any man a live .

The fifth sin ( supposed ) is our wilfull persisting in our schism , lightly regarding Mr B. reverend mens labours and sinfully despising weaker meanes , &c.

It is well knowne that Mr B. how earnestly soever he pleads Answ. with vs for the contrary , doth himselfe as much neglect ( save for his owne purposes ) the iudgment of other men , as any other : neyther is there one minister in the land ( I am verily perswaded ) with whom he suiteth , but a right Ismael is he lesse or more , having his hand against every man and every mans against him .

Well I deny our separation to be schism , ( as we take the word ) much lesse do we persist wilfully in it . And for the iudgment of other men , as we despise not the meanest , so neyther do we pin our faith vpon the sleeves of the most learned .

The other exceptions of shifting and evading the scriptures , & of perversnes of spirit in conference , I pretermit as being both frivolous & despitefull , onely something must be answered before we passe this poynt , to the charge layd vpon vs , Pag 98. touching , corruptions in the Churches Apostolicall , and reformed . And first , obiect to them Mr B. ( sayth he ) the corruptions of the Churches Apostolicall , and theyr answer is eyther that we mayntayn our corruptions by the sinnes of other Churches , or els they were in a true constitution .

And how can you with modesty reiect this answer ? you say we misconstrue Answ. your intendement , which is that corruption make not a false Church . We grant it except they be essentiall : but this is that we say that what Church soever alledgeth the corruptions of other Churches with a purpose to continue in the like themselves ( which is your estate ) that Church maintaynes her corruptions by the sinns of other Churches . And for the second poynt I do affirme that merely by vertue of a constitution there may be a true Church of God though abounding ( for the present ) in sinne and iniquity , & yet another assembly not rightly constituted or gathered into covenant with God , no true Church though lesse impieties be to be found in it .

The Prophet Ieremy complaines † † L●m. 4. 6. that the iniquity of the daughter of his people ( namely Ierusalem ) was become greater then the sinn of Sodom , and the Prophet Ezeki●l affirmes that * * Ezek 16. 46. 47. 51. 52. Ierusalem was more corrupt by half then Sodom and Samaria . And yet was Ierusalem the true Church of God , which neyther Samaria nor Sodom were , no nor yet any other place in the world , where not halfe the wickednes was wrought that was to be found in the better of them . This poynt I will further examplify by a symilitude . A woman free and separated from all other men and ioyned in civill covenant to a man , is his wyfe , yea though shee prove very stubborn and disobedient , yea and dishonest also , till the bill of divorcement be given her ; but an other woman the wife of an other man , or not contracted to that man , is not his wife , nor can be so reputed , though she be never so obedient & buxome vnto him : so the Church of England til it be separated & free from the world & prince of the world that rei●●e●h in it , & so from Antichrist his Eldest sonne in his hye●archy priesthood & other ordinances , & be taken into covenant with the Lord cannot possibly be the true Ch: of God or wife of Christ : no not though the good things in it were many more then they are . Which we do not alledg , as is craftily insinuated against vs , to iustify any mans continuance in a Church full of wickednes , but to prove that the constitution of the Church that is the collection and combination of Saynts as matter in and into covenant with God as the form , is that which gives true being vnto a Church and nothing els , how vily soever men iudge or speak of it .

And for corruptions in the Apostolical Churches it is true the Apostles mentioned them , but allwayes with vtter dislike , severe reproof , and streight charge of reforming them . Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 1. 6. 7. 11 — 13. 1 Thes. 5. 14. 2 Thes. 3. 6. 1 Tim. 6. 5. Rev. 2. 14 — 16. 20.

But how do these things concern you ? Though Paul , and all the Apostles of Christ with him , yea though Christ himself from heaven should admonish any of your Churches to put away from among themselves any person though never so haeretical or flagitious , you could not do it , neither could you reform any abhomination otherwhere , though the same be as conspicuous as the * * 2 Chron. 26. 20. leprosy of Vzziah which brake forth in his forehead . And this want of the power of the Lord Iesus for reformation , which an other man would think were an intollerable slavery Mr B. pag 68. turnes to good advantage , and thinks himself & his Church halfe excused of all the evils which are amongst them , because they want power to vse the remedy : thus pleading for a priveledg the mark of the beast , from which the servants of God ought to abhor , herin being passing witty above other men in making an advantage of that evill , which the most have enough to do to excuse .

And for true Churches not vsing aright the power they have for reformation , they are like true bodyes which through some obstructions , or stoppings for a time cannot voyd things noxious , & hurtful till there be a remedy : but the Church without this power is as a monstrous body wanting the faculties & instruments of evacuation and expulsion of excrements , or other noy some things ▪ and therefore is never appointed of God to live , but devoted to death and destruction ?

Of the reformed Churches & our cariage towards them I have spoken els where , and for your Turkish Argument in the margent wherein you incense the Magistrate against vs , as otherwise incorrigible , it well becomes the rest of your book joyning violence to slaunder . But are you your self wholly conformable Mr B ? If not , why do you incense the magistrate against vs being your selfe obnoxious to his displeasure ? Or do you not hope to escape persecution your self by persecuting vs ? This is too ordinary a practise amongst you . But the Lord seeth your haulting , and rewardeth you in your bosomes , as you have served vs . And when you and others more forward then you do consider & feel in what hatred you are with the King and state , me thinks your harts should smite you , as the harts of Iosephs brethren did them in their trouble for their barbarous crueltie towards him . Gen. 42.

Our sixt sin by retayl Mr B. makes our rayling and scoffing , and in Mr B. particular H. Barrowes blasphemyes , &c. whose repentance he would have vs publish to the world

If I should answerably require of you the publication of the Answ. repentance of your Clergy not onely for the cruel speakings , but even for the wicked deeds , which vngodlily they have committed against Christ in his servants , and ordinances , it were an hard tax put vpon you . Yea to spare you for other men , do you but publish your owne repentance for the same ●innes ( wherein you are deeply set ) and without doubt your godly example shall provoke many to the like .

And for Mr Barrow , as I say with Mr Ainsworth , that I wil not iustify all the words of an other man no● yet myne owne , so say I also with Mr Smyth , that because I know not by what particular motion of the spirit he was guided to write in those phr●ses , I dare not censure him as you do : especially considering with what fyery zeale the Lord hath furnished such his servants at all tymes , as he hath stirred vp for speciall reformation . Let the example of Luther alone suffice , whom into what termes his zeale carryed , his writings testify . And yet both in him , and in Mr Barrow there might be with true spirituall zeal ●leshly indignation mingled .

And though this in generall might be sufficient , yet for the stopping of your mouth Mr B. and for the satisfying of others , I will discend a little to the very particulars , which you have c●lled out against Mr Barrow as most odious .

First then you fault him that he calles your Bishops Antichristian prowd Prelates , and the tayl of the beast , &c.

And what are they but Antichristian , if their office be against Christ , and his ordinances in the visible Church ? And what els do all the reformed Churches abroad and reformists at home iudge , speak , & write of them ? And what thought you Mr B. otherwise of them , when even since you dealt against this cause of separation , you affirmed before many witnesses that there was not a place in the new testament against Antichrist , but you could apply it against them ?

And because you are come to this height of boldnes & depth of dissembling , I will here insert brei●ly certayne reasons which I receaved from your self in wryting to prove the Bishops Antichristian , and that word for word as I have reserved them by me to this day .

1. The fruits of the Hierarchy are contrary to Christ . 2. It forbids many good meanes of religion as prophesying &c. Mr B. 3. It keeps in and nourisheth offenders against paynfull labourers . 4. It excommunicates the godly , yea for a word , and that ips● facto . 5. It is lordly and tyr●●mous contrary to 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. 3. Luk. ●2 . 25. 6. It rules by Popish lawes and by the power of man which ar● carnall weapons . 7. It remits the offenders for m●ny , though ●e repent not . 8. It establisheth an vniversall Bishop as well as a Diosesan , or Provinciall Bishop . And as I remember at the same tyme you brought forth D. Downame in his first book proving the Pope Antichrist , ch. 4. affirming , that the Hierarch in the Romish Church was Antichristian , whereof I am sure the the Bishops office is a part .

These reasons I thought good to set downe not because they are all , or some of them of the best , that can be brought , but because they are yours , which notwithstanding I am perswaded neyther you nor any other can satisfie .

And if Mr B. himselfe thus wryte and speak in private , why blames he vs for our publique testimony ?

Now if the Bishops be Antichristian and so the spirit of Divils Rev. 16. 14. why might not Mr Barrow affirm theyr Ministery and ministration to be of and by the Divill ? and what are they but eyther the tayl , or some other lim of the beast ?

And for theyr excommunications by name , it is evident by this they are not of God , for that the most religious in the kingdome make least account of them .

For theyr Luciferian pryde whereof Mr Barrow accuseth them it is apparant they burden the earth , & threaten the heavens with it ▪ for their hateful Symony both in giving , and receiving , they are so notorious , as the best service Mr B. can do them in this case is , to turn mens thoughts from those evils which every ey sees , & every heart abhorrs .

Towching the Ghost the Bishop gives in his blasphomous imitation of Christ , Ioh. 20. 22. ( except contrary to the rule in nature , nihil d●● quod non habet , he can give that he hath not ) it is not very likely he should give the Holy Ghost ▪ why then might not Mr Barrow call it an vnholy Ghost .

And for the Bible in the Bishops hands which he gives his Preists in ordination , Mr Barrow calls it the libell not in contempt of the book , but in reproof of the ceremony , & that iustly since the Lord never appointed the scriptures for any such vse , nor any such ceremony in the ordination of his Ministers . Christ , and the Apostles would have such Ministers ordeyned as have the Bibles in their hearts : the Bishops of England to supply this want give it into the hands of their Preists which they think sufficient , though in truth the most of them are more vsed to handle a paire of cardes vpon an alebench , then the holy bible .

Your Patrons Mr Barrow calles great Baals , & Lord Patrons ; and iustly in respect of that Lordly power they vse in obtruding their Clerks vpon the Parish assemblies : your ministers yea all and every one of them Preists , which is their proper name given them both in your book of ordination , and common prayer : your Deacons half-preists according to the nature of their office , betwixt which & the Deacons office in the new testament , Act. 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. there is no consimilitude .

For the other more harsh termes wherewith he enterteynes such persons and things in the Church as carry with them most appearance of holynes , they are to be interpreted according to his meaning , and a distinction vsed by Mr B. in † † pag. 79. another place is here to be applyed . Which is that Mr Barrow speaks not of these persons , and things simply , but in a respect , & so , & so considered , & so no one terme given by Mr Barrow to my knowledg , but may ( at the least ) be tolerated .

The Ministers ( as they receive the wages of vnrighteousnes , o● counsayl to spiritual fornication ) are B●l●●mites ; in respect of th●ir office vowed to destruction , Cananites ; as they plead for confusion Babylonish divines : as they endeavour to stay Gods people in Egypt ▪ spiritually so called ) Egyptian inchaunters : as they are members of the Hierarchy 〈◊〉 of the Divel , by vertue whereof he bear great sway , as the * * Preface to the Discov . of D. Ban. slaunders . reformists amongst you have expresly testifyed .

And for your very divine exercise● of prayer , preaching ▪ sacr●●●t● , & su●ging of psal●s howsoever they be good & holy in themselves , or at leas● have much good in them , yet in respect of the vnhallowed communion , forg●d minist●ry , and superstitious order wherein these , and all other things with you are ministred and exercised , they are lyable to the heaviest censure Mr Barrow hath put vpon them .

And for the most forward preachers in the kingdom , considering their vnsound and broken courses in denying , that in deed and practise , which in w●rd and writing ▪ they prof●sse to be the reveal●d will o● God , and inviolable testament of Christ , binding his Church for ever , yea and practising the contrary in the face of the s●nne , commi●t●●g two evils , forsaking the Lord the fountayne of l●ving water to dig themselves broken pit●s which will hold no water , yea not onely refusing themselves to enter into the kingdome of God the Church , but also hindering them that would , & persecuting them that do , and lastly considering them in their vnconscionable defence for their own standings and practises , as that onely the godly in the parish are of the Church with them : that they hold and vse their ministery by the acceptation of the people , and not by the Bishops ; that they obey the Bishops in their citations , suspensions , excommunications and absolutions , a● they are civil magistrates , and ●he like , they do deserve a sharper medicine , then happily they are willing to endure .

Yea the very personall graces of knowledge , zeale , p●●ience & the like manifested in many both ministers , and people , are most vniustly perverted , and misused to the obduration and hardening both of the persons themselves , & others in most deceivable wayes , wherein the deepest mistery of iniquity , and most effectuall delusion of Satan that can be , worketh , as is by Mr Barrow and others clearly discovered .

But that Mr Barrow should say that the preaching of Gods word , & ●●e spirits effectuall working should make men the children of hell and two fold ●orse then b●fore is a great slaunder , and could not possibly enter into his or any other godly mans heart .

And so I leave these and the like more vnsavoury-seeming speaches of M● Barrow to the wise and Christian readers charitable interpretation .

The last rank of Mr B. reasons followeth which respect the matter ▪ of our sep●●●tion ( by him called schisme ) which how materiall they are shall appeare in their place .

Our first errour according to his reckoning is . Mr B.

They hold that the constitution of our Church is a fals● constitution .

And let vs see how strongly your answer forces vs from this Answ. our hold .

1. Arg. They cannot prove this simply by any playne doctrine of scripture , Mr B. and that which they would prove is but onely respectively , and so may any thing , and their Church also be condemned . 2. Arg. It is against the evidence of the scriptures which maketh the word , externall profession , and sacraments the visible constitution , &c.

That you then affirm in the first place is , that wee cannot prove this Answer . simply by any playne doctrine , wherein you do half confesse that wee do it by iust consequence , though not by playne doctrine , & wholly , that respectively , and so & so considered ( as you speak ) your constitution is false . And thus ( you say ) any thing may be condemned .

But first it is not true that any thing may be condemned after this sort . The constitution of the Ch: Apostolike could in no consideration be condemned , neyther could ours ( to our knowledge ) being according to that pattern , how weakly soever we walk in it .

Secondly , the constitution even of Rome ( as now it stands ) is not simply false , but onely in this & that respect . So far as it separates fro heathenish Idolatry , & Idolaters vnto the true God , & reteynes any truthes of God & remaynders of Christs testament , so far it is not false , or feyned , and yet is her present constitution false & she vncapable of the Lords covenant .

To come nearer the matter . The constitution of the Church is the orderly collection and coniunction of the sayncts into & in the covenant of the new Testament : 〈◊〉 the saynts are the matter , the covenant the form , from which two concurring , the Church ariseth , and is by them constituted . Now for the word , it is an outward instrument preparing , and preserving the matter , but no more the constitution of the Church then the ax is the constitution or frame of the house : and for externall profession it manifests the fitnes of the matter for the form , and by it the saynts enter covenant ? which covenant also the sacraments confirm as s●ales annexed to that end .

And where Mr B. affirmeth we cannot prove their Church constition false by any playn doctrine of scripture , we will consider the scriptures he himself alledgeth , and the doctrine of them which as so many touchstones do discover the counterfeyt constitution of the same .

The word ( saith he ) is the constitution of the Church : His meaning is , or should be at the least , that the word is the ordinary outward meanes for the collecting , and constituting of the Church of God ▪ I graunt it . But how considered ? Not the word in mens bibles alone ▪ for then all the Haeretiques in the world are true Ch: nor yet the word preached simply , for * * Act: 17. ●2 . 23 . -32 . Paul preached the word to the scoffing Athenians , & † † Act. 19. ● . 9. to the blasphemous Iewes , yet I think he will not say that eyther the one or the other were Churches truly constituted . How then ? the word published vnderstood , beleeved , and obeyed outwardly at the least , as the spirituall sword , or ax , hewing the stones in the rock , and trees in the forrest , and preparing them to be the Lords spirituall house . And thus much " 1 Pet. 2. ● the very places produced by Mr B : ( like Golyahs sword drawn out to cut off his owne sword ) do evidently declare .

Math. 28. 19. ( which is the first place ) , shewes that such as by preaching of the word were made disciples , for so much ‘ ‘ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . the word importeth , were to be gathered into the Church & baptised . Mar. 16. 15. shewes the same , especially if you adde vers. 16. inferring that men by preaching must beleeve , and so beleeve , as they have the promise of salvation , which I note the rather to shew the vanity of that verball profession in a profane conversation , which els where Mr B. makes so much of .

The places 2 Cor. 5. 19. & 11. 2. cited by you do prove that the wor● of reconciliation and ministery of the gospell beleeved & obeyed to the forgivenes of sinns and to the preparation & sanctification of the Church to Christ is the means of gathering and building vp the same , to which that of Iob. 33. 23. 24. consorteth .

The two places Act. 2. 14. 37. 38. 41. and 16. ●2 . 32. 34. are of the same 〈◊〉 with the former and do prov● that sundry of the Iewes at Ierusalem by Peters preaching and that the ●aylours houshol● at Philippi by Pauls preaching were brought to repentance , and faith in Christ , and so added to the Church .

But what wil be the conclusion of all these premises ?

The Proposition is this . The true Apostolick Churches having a true constitution were gathered & constituted of such men and women as by the preaching of the gospel were made disciples , had faith and repentance wrought in them to the obteyning of the forgivenes of sinns , & promise of life eternall and to sanctification and obedience .

Now though my logick be not much better then yours Mr B. yet since my cause is , I will help you with an assumption or 2. Proposition .

But the Church of England was not so gathered after Popery , but on the contrary without preaching of the gospel , & of men & women for the most part ignorant , faythles mispenitent disobedient , to whom no promise of the forgivenes of sinns , & life eternal appert●ynes : whervpon the conclusion necessarily followeth , that the constitution of the Church of England is not true or Apostolick , but false counterfeyt and apostaticall .

Secondly the scriptures ( sayth Mr B. ) make externall profession the visible constitution of the Church . His meaning must be , that profession of faith is required of such persons of yeres before they be admitted into the visible Church . Which truth the place cited by him Act. 8. 12. 37. 38. doth iustify , to which one place many other may be added to the same purpose , as Act. 10. 46. & & 16. ●4 , & 18. 8.

But what is the Church of Worxsop better for this ? what profession of faith did the particular members make , when at the first of an Antichristian Synagogue ( as in Popery it was ) , it became or was constituted a true Christian Church ? was not the house built at the first as it is at this day repayred ? Let a man but hire a house within the precincts of your parish , & he is a ioyned member in your Ch: ipso facto , though he cannot manifest the least kernel of faith , or repentance , yea though he professe himself an atheist , horetick , ●orcerer , blasphemer ( or that which is worse if worse can be ) . All you do is to vse the woodden dagger Mr Barrow tells you of , to suspend him from the Lords supper , & it may be to get him excommunicated by the officiall , ( if he have neither freinds nor mony . ) And this very excommunication shewes him to have been a member of you , for onely a brother is to be excommunicated , Math. 18. 15. 16. 17 and onely he that was within , may be cast out , 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13.

And here , as before I will help to form your argument .

The members of the Apostolick Church which were truely constituted were admitted by their personall profession of faith , and confession of sin , Math. 3. 6. Act. 8. 37. 38. and 10. 46. & 16. 14. & 1● . ● . & 19. 18.

But the members of the Engl. assemblies neyther were nor are so admitted , but according to the parish perambulation whatsoever impiety they professe .

Therefore their constitution is proved false by the evidence brought to iustify it .

Lastly for the sacraments , as they are not the constitution of the Church , but do necessarily presuppose a Church constituted vnto which they are committed as † † Act. 7. 38. Rom. 9. 4. the oracles and ordinances of God vnto Israel , so is not the Church of England the Israel of God , the seed of Abraham , a peculiar people unto the Lord , but a mingled seed , as Ezra , 9. 1. 2. uncapable of the sacraments the seales of the covenant of grace . And the places Mr B. brings forth are so far from iustifying the constitution of the Church of England by the sacraments , as they do most notably evince the prophanation of the sacraments by the Church .

The two places are Mat. 28. 19. 1 Cor. 10. 16. In the former the Lord Iesus sends his Apostles first to teach , or make men disciples , and then to baptise them ( including the children in the parents according to the covenant made with Abraham into which the gentiles were in their time to be gathered . Rom. 11. 17. Ephe. 2. 1 , 2. 13. 14. & 3. 6. ) But on the contrary the Lord Bishops in Engl. having found a readier way send out their parrish priests to baptise all before them that are borne in their parishes , whether their parents be taught or vntaught , the disciples of Christ or of antichrist , and the Divil , not passing by the children of recusant Papists & others refusing all communion with them , whose children they use to baptize by force , & against the will of their Parents , as I could prove ( if need were ) by sundry instances .

And is not here an orderly constitution , and a Church truely gathered by the sacrament of baptisme ?

Now 1 Cor. 10. 16. the Apostle teacheth that the bread and wine in the supper are the communion of the body and blood of Christ , that is effectuall pledges of our conjunction , and incorporation with Christ , and one with another : and in the 17. vers. that all which eat of one bread , or one loaf , are one mysticall body . This place alone if Mr B. and his fellow ministers would seriously con-consider and set themselves faithfully to observe they would rather offer their owne bodies to be torn in peices by wilde beasts , then the holy misteries of Christs body to be prophaned , as they are .

And here as formerly I will help the Arguments raysed from the scriptures produced by Mr B. and some other of the same kinde into form thus .

The sacrament of baptisme is to be administred by Christs appointment , and the Apostles example onely to such as are ( viz externally and so far as men can judge ) taught and made disciples , Mat. 28. 19. do receive the word gladly , Act. 2. 41. beleeve and so professe Ch. 8. 12. 13. 37. have received the holy Ghost Ch. 10. 47. and to their seed . Act. 2. 39. 1 Cor. 7. 14.

But baptisme in Engl. is ministred by a far larger commission then Christs : though there be in the parents neyther appearance of faith nor holynes , if in stead of them they can procure godfathers and godmothers to cary the children to the font ( yea will they nil they ) the parrish priest hath commission to make them Christian soules every mothers childe of them , borne within his parrish precincts . And therefore the baptism in Engl. is not Christs baptisme in the administration of it .

For the Lords supper the Apostle sayth , 1 Cor. 10. 16. that the bread and wine sanctifyed to that purpose is the communion , that is , an effectuall symbole or pledge of that communion which the receivers have with Christ . Wherevpon I do turne the point of this scripture into the bowels of the Church of Engl. thus .

That which ioynes such men in communion with Christ as by his expresse word he excludes from all communion with him , that is so far from being the true constitution of the Church as it shewes both an vnholy confusion in the Church and a violent prophanation of the ordinance by it .

But the supper as it is ministred in the Parish-assemblies , ( as they were at the first , & still are clapt together ) ioynes them with Christ with whom he expresly disclaymes all communion & fellowship as their practise compared with these scriptures doth make manifest to all men . 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 1 Ioh. 1. 6. Ergo.

So that baptisme and the Lords supper are amongst you Mr B. and in your hands & handling , but as the holy vessels of the temple in Babylon & there togeither with the Lords people deteyned by frawd and violence .

Our 2. supposed errour is thus layd downe . Mr B.

They hold our constitution a reall Idol , and so vs Idolaters .

If the constitution of your Church be false and forged , ( like Answ. * * 1 King . 12. 33. the moneth which Ieroboam forged in his owne heart ) as hath been formerly proved in part , and shal be more fully in the traversing of the 8. errour , then it is an Idoll , if an Idoll , a reall Idol , for it is not meerly mentall , or notionall , but that which hath being and existence without the mind or vnderstanding .

And where Mr B. affirms this to be contrary to the course of holy scriptures never taking Idol in this sense , because neyther he nor Marlorat finds the word Idol so vsed , he must know it is as impossible for eyther him , or Marl. or any other man to enumerate or reckon vp all the Idols wherof the scriptures speak , though not in expresse terms yet by iust consequence & proportion ) as to number all the creatures in heaven and in earth , yea all the workes of mens hands , yea all the thoughts of their harts , for all these may and do in some abuse become Idols .

And that we may better discern whether there be a like truth and boldnes in this assertion that the scriptures never take idol in this sense , let vs consider and compare together a few places .

The Lord commaunded Moses , Exod. 25. & 26. & 27. to make the tabernacle and sanctuary of the Lord for the place of his dwelling and worship , and to this end did appoint both the matter ▪ and form of the whol work even to the least pin : & if Moses had framed it , eyther of other matter , or of the same matter after an other fashion , had not this forgery and devise for the worship of God been a reall , sensible , and palpable Idoll , a sinn against the second Commaundement which forbids nothing but Idolatry ? It cannot be denyed . Hence it followeth that the constitution or frame of the tabernacle or temple of the new testament , which is the visible Church 2 Cor. 6. 16. if it be other eyther in matter or form ( as yours is in both ) is a reall and substantiall Idoll . Secondly Antichristianism is Idolatry , and is in that respect called † † Rev. 118. and 14. 8. Babylon , Sodom , and Egypt spiritually , so Antichristians are sayd * * Ch. 14. 9. to worship the beast : now a devised constitution , frame and fabrick of the Church is a part of antichristianism , & of the apostasy of Antichrist & therefore a reall Idol : and as Mr Smyth truely affirmeth a greater Idoll then eyther the Antichristian ministery or worship . As “ “ Mat. 23. 17. 1● . the temple which sanctifyeth the gold is greater then the gould , & the altar which sanctifyeth the offering greater then the offering , so the temple of the new testament , the Church or people of God by whose faith all the ordinances of the Church are sanctifyed , is greater then the ministery , worship or any other ordinance : and so on the contrary being Idolatrous , a greater Idoll then they . And lastly the Church being the end of the ordinances , Mar. 2. 27. 28. is more excellent then they being true , and being false a more detestable Idoll then any of them .

Lastly neyther your bolstring out of a false constitution as a new sin shal excuse you for not submitting vnto a true , nor your prophane scoffing at a true constitution as at the Diana of the Ephesians discourage vs from reioycing in our portion .

It is with you in this case as it was sometimes with Rechum & Shimshay who making a shew as though they would have built the temple Zerubbabel ( but not being the men to whom this work appertayned ) laboured afterwards to hinder & discourage him , & the Iewes with him whom it did concerne . Ezra . 4. 1 , 2 , 3. 8. 9.

Once you know Mr B. you did separate from the rest an hundred voluntary professors into covenant with the Lord , sealed vp with the Lords supper , to forsake all knowne sinn , to hear no wicked or dumb Ministers , and the like , which covenant long since you have dissolved , not shaming to affirme you did it onely in policy to keepe your people from Mr Smyth . Well Mr B. be not deceived God is not mocked , neither wil he hold them guiltlesse that so take his name in vayn , but as you have sowen so shall you reap .

To conclude , you would have no man blame you for your contumelyes against the † † Isa. 5. 7. planting of the Lords vineyard , the * * 1 Tim. 3. 15. building of Gods house , the “ “ Eph. 2. 23 composition of Christs body , the constitution of his Church . And wherefore ? because Mr Robinson held as much before into separation . And if it were so , should myne iniquities excuse yours ? But it is most vntrue you affirme . There never entred into my hart a thought , nor passed a word out of my mouth so contumelious against the true & orderly constitution of Christs Church : though I have ( and that worthily ) disliked , ( as I stil doe ) that hard & rash censure passed by some vpon the persons of such as of whom the Lord by the evident work of his spirit gives a better testimony .

And for the poynt in hand , I am perswaded and so professe before all men that I see not by the revealed will of God in his word how to iudge otherwise of any ordinance of the Church , or exercise of communion out of a true constituted Church then of the sacrifices out of the tabernacle or temple , within whose circle they were concluded by the word of God .

The third errour is thus set down .

That such as are not of a particular constituted Church ( to wit such a one Mr B. as theyrs is ) are no subiects of Christs kingdome .

And since our Church is a particular congregation separated Answ. from Antichristianism , into covenant with God by voluntary submission vnto the gospel , we do avow it for truth that such ●● are not of a particular &c.

For since the visible Church is the visible or externall † † Math. 21 43. Ioh. 10 16. kingdome of Christ which he as mediator collecteth , protecteth , and administreth , he that is not a member of the visible Church is not in this regard a subiect of Christs kingdome . Neyther are your exceptions 1 Cor. 15. 24 . against this doctrine of any force .

The scripture ( you say in the first place ) never sets forth any of Gods people by this mark . Yes that it doth and that oft tymes without any other mark .

How oft doth Moses , and the other Prophets with him entreat the Lord to spare Israel when they sinned , for their constitution , that is for the covenant of his mercy into which he had admitted them with their forefathers Abraham , Isaak , and Iaakob ?

The Lord protesteth Is. 1. that Israel did rebel against him , that they did not vnderstand , but were a most sinfid nation , yea as Sodom & Gomorrah , and yet he calls them children & his people . v. 1. 2. 3. 4. 10. yea passing Sodom in iniquity , and yet the daughter of his people , & daughter Zion , Lam. 4. 6. 22. And what do these and infinite other the like places but conclude that where there was little or nothing els to be seen , the Lord marked out his people by this , that he had † † Deut. 29. 12. 13. established them a people vnto himself by covenant which though they for their part had broken by their iniquities , yet was for the present on his part vndissolved ?

And where it is graunted by Mr B. that the godly ought to ioyn with the visible Church if possibly they can , why doth he blame vs which intend no further ? If men truely desire it but cannot possibly accomplish it , the Lord in this as in other cases , accepts the will for the deed .

And so I answer your 3. Exception in order touching the martyrs in Queen Maryes dayes and other godly persons there named , that some of them were members of the true visible Church actually , others actually separated from the false Church , and in will ( which God accepteth ) ioyneth with the true Church , & others walking faithfully according to their knowledg whether living or dead , are and were Gods people , though in Babylon .

Your second exception is certayn scriptures to which ( you say ) this doctrine is contrary . The first is Gal. 3. 7. 9. And how to this ?

They that are of the faith of Abraham separate themselves by faith from the world into covenant with the Lord , as Abraham did Gen. 12. 1. 2. 3. Heb. 11. ● .

To the 2. place which is 1 Ioh. 3. 14. I do answer that Iohn speaks of such as were of the true visible Church ; neyther can any other , according to the true visibility & manifestation of the love which the Lord requireth , love his brother , which is not of a true visible Church .

He that doth not admonish his brother ( if he offend ) after that order , and in those degrees , which the word prescribeth , doth not love his brother . Lev. 19. 17.

But onely he that is of a true visible Church and that furnished with the power of Christ , the keyes of the kingdome for the censures , can admonish his brother in that order and those degrees which the word prescribeth , Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. And so this scripture Mr B. overthrowes both your opinion , and standing .

The third scripture is 1 Cor. 1. 1.

Paul wrytes there onely to visible Churches , to the Church of Corinth primarily and so by proportion to all other visible Churches in the world , for to them alone the censures , sacraments , prophesying , and other matters there handled , do appertayne . 1 Cor. 5. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. and 11. 20. and 14. 4. 5.

The brother spoken of in the fourth and last place which is 2 Th. 3. 15. was a member of the visible Church and subiect of Christs kingdome , though walking inordinately in his calling as appeareth , v. 11. and therefore to be discountinanced and made ashamed by the Church that he might the more faythfully apply himselfe to his busines .

These scriptures then do none of them wash this mark , from of Gods people , but some of them , if not all , print it far more deeply vpon them .

Lastly you ask whither Christs kingdome be not spirituall , and invisible Mr B. also ? Iob : 18. 33. and 10. 16. Answ.

No man will deny it ( though the places you alledge do not so necessary prove it ) . But as Christs kingdome is spirituall and invisible also , so is it spirituall and visible also . The † † 1 Cor. 2. 15. man which hath receaved the spirit , is spirituall , and not the soule onely . So externall things may be spirituall & are in their relaton & vse and you erre , if you think otherwise . The * * Rom. 1. 11. and 15. 27. 1 Cor. 10 3. 4. word , sacraments , & other ordinances of the Church are spiritual , yea all the “ “ Rom. 12. 1 ▪ Heb. 13. 15. 26. 1 Pet. 2. 5. sacrifices , of the faithfull are spirituall , & more specially , as the Lord Iesus is the Preist both of the soul & body & † † 1 Cor. 6. 20 . hath payed a price for both , so is he also the King both of soule & body and swayes the scepter of his kingdome not onely internally by his spirit in the soule , but externally , and visibly also by this word in the outward man , guyding the same by his lawfull officers depu●ed there vnto .

But what is the cause why Mr B. should move this question ?

Is it not for that himselfe and his Church not having Christ to rule over them by his lawes but other kings and Lords by theyr canons , he would insinuate that Christ exerciseth none external regiment over his Church , nor is the King over the bodyes of his subiects at all , thus rather labouring to abolish that part of Christs Kingdom then to submit to it . But as our principall care at all times must be to have the throne of our L. Iesus erected in our harts , that he may reigne there , so , that we may give him his owne entyre , & that which he hath so dearly bought , we must rank our bodyes also vnder the regiment he hath established for the well ordering & preservation of his kingdom forever both in soule & body , & not like Nichodemites , or Familists presume to submit the outward man we care not to whome , or what .

Our fourth supposed error is . Mr B.

That all not in theyr way are without , and they do apply against vs 1 Cor. 5. 12. Ephe. 2 12.

And since the way is one as Christ is one , and we assured , that our way is that way of Christ , we doubt not to affirme that all not Answ. in our way are without in the present respect ; provided alwayes that we do iudge that other Churches may be and are in our way , and we in theirs , and both they and we in Christs , though there be betwixt them & vs sundry differences both in iudgment and practise . And that we doe fitly apply against you the scriptures above named , I do thus manifest .

The Apostle 1 Cor. 5. reproves the Church for tolerating amongst them the incestuous person vncensured , charging them to vse the power of the Lord Iesus given vnto them , for that purpose , and that as vpon him for the present , so vpon other notorious offenders at other times . Now least they should mistake his meaning he shewes how far this his advertisement extends , viz: to such offenders as were in the Church and to all , and onely them . And this limitation of the power of Christ to the proper obiect , he sets downe in this 12. verse , affirmatively , to them that are within , and negatively , to them that are without . From this place then I do thus reason .

They that are within are subiect to the power of excommunication by the Church gathered together in the name of Christ , they without not .

But you Mr B. and so of the rest , are not subiect to the judgement of the Church thus gathered together , but to the Archbishop of York , Who is not the Church of Workxsop .

Therefore you are not within but without in the Apostles meaning .

The second place we apply against you is , Ephe. 2. 12. whence I reason thus .

They that are aliants and straungers from the common wealth of Israel , are without .

But such are you , and your whole parrish .

Ergo.

The first Proposition is the Apostles words : for to be without Christ ( as there he speakes ) and to be a stranger from the common wealth of Israel , is all one .

The second Proposition is thus confirmed .

The common wealth of Israel was a religious policy consisting of a peculiar people , of whom every one was by the word of God separated into the covenant of his mercy Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. Neh. 10. 1. 28. 29.

But to affirme that every person in the Church of England , or in any parish Church is admitted by the Lord into the new covenant or testament , is both against the expresse word of God , Heb. 8. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. and his owne conscience ( I am perswaded ) that affirmed it .

And thus so long as you keep your standing , you must be content to stand without in the meaning of the Apostle in the places forenamed , neither can you wrythe in your self , or corrupt these places to get in by them , though you give sundry attempts . as

1. These places are ment of such as never made so much as an outward profession of Christ at all :

What better are men for professing God in word when in deed Answ. they deny him ?

They are never a whit the lesse but the more abhominable . Tit. 1. 16. And might not any Papist or other heretik make this exception ? For they make a kind of profession of Christ Iesus . And when you Mr B. in your pulpit thunder the iudgments of God out of the Prophets and Apostles against Atheists , Papists , blasphemers , proud and cruell persequuters , might not a man serve you as you do us , and tel you that the most of the threatnings you denounce were directed against the Heathen which did not so much as make an outward profession of Christ .

Lastly the H. Ghost terming Antichristianisme Babylon , Sodom , Egypt , spiritually teacheth vs to apply against it spiritually what the Prophets have civily spoken against them . Mr B.

2. They cannot prove vs without by the scripture , expounding this phrase without by the scriptures , laying a side the forgeryes of theyr own braynes .

The cause is playn that whosoever i● not a free deni●en of the common Answ. wealth of Israell , and vnder the iudgment of the Church is without , and there must stand by Gods appoyntment . And that this is your estate is as playne . And both these we have proved by the scriptures without forgeryes of our owne brayne ; all the brayns you have will fynd no forgeryes in our proofes .

3 God almighty hath witnessed that we are his people . Mr B.

1 By giving vs his word , Psal. 14. 7. 19. 20. and sacraments .

This scripture proves that God gave his word to Iaakob , & statutes Answ. to Israel , but prove your selves the Israel of God ; shew vs from the word of God the charter of your corporation , & that your Nationall , Provintiall , Diocesan , and Parochial Churches are that new Ierusalem , and your inhabitants the right Citzens of that City enfranchised with her heavenly libertyes , and answer the proofs brought to the contrary , otherwise though you be never so shameles a begger of the question in hand , we may not graunt it you . Mr B.

2 By Gods effectuall working by his word , Ier. 23. 22. therefore heard ●● the voyce of the sonne of God , Ioh. 5. 25. and the words of eternal life .

God forbid I should deny eyther the truthes of Christ you have a Answ. mongst you , or any good effect , which God hath wrought by them , but this I deny , that either they are or have been so effectual as to make any one of your parish assemblies the Church of Christ truely gathered & constituted .

And for the place of Ieremy 23. 22. which as here to prove a true church , so every where to prove a true ministery by the effectuall work therof is so frequently alledged , I desire it may be wel considered & it will appear that the Prophet speaks not at all of the effect of prophecying , but of the drift , & intent of the Prophets , which ( had they taken counsel of the Lord ) would not have flattered the people in theyr sinns , by preaching peace peace , as they did , thereby hardening theyr hearts and strengthening theyr hands in their disobedience , and rebellion , but would on the contrary by denouncing against them the iudgements of God , have endeavoured their repentance , as the true Prophets did .

And if we must thus iudge of true , and false prophets by the effects of their ministery certayn it is that neyther Ezechiel no Ieremy himself stood in Gods counsel , but were false Prophets , for neyther of them were effectuall for the peoples conversion , Ier. 20 7. 8. Ezech: 3 : 7. 11. And yet a wonder it is to hear what a noyse Mr B. and his people do make with this scripture of Ieremy , as though it did without contradiction iustify both Church and Ministery by some ministeriall effect where it is most playne to all that but read the Chapter with any observation , that the Prophet speaks not a word of the effect of their Ministerie , but of the drift of the ministers the false Prophets desperately slattring the people to their destruction .

3 By Gods most straunge and miraculous deliverance of vs from the Mr B. enemyes of his gospell : a promise of God to his people . Lev. 26. 7. 8. Deut. 28. 7 ▪

These deliverances do no more iustify your estate before the Answ. Lord , then the † † 1 Kin. 20. 13. 14. 15. deliverance of Samaria out of the hands of the Aramites did the ten tribes in their Apostasie .

The Lord doth promise victory , and deliverance vnto his people in their iust quarrels , and vse of good meanes , but ever with condition of his glory , and their good . And they thus walking , and being thus delivered take experience of the truth of his promises , and have cause of reioycing in the God of their salvation ; but besides this there are many other causes of deliverance and victory which with all other things of the same kinde , † come alike to Eccles. 9. 2. all men good & bad ; and thus to measure the Lords love by morsels bewrayes too carnal a mind in any man : and Mr B. neighbour minister ( if he have a fatter benefice then he ) may aswel avouch him self a better minister , for the quoted scriptures do as well promise plenty and aboundance as deliverance and victory .

And where in the last place you lay to our charge , that though wee like it well that you should call vs brethren , yet wee will not so acknowledge you , nor do we hold our selves bound so to admonish you , I do answer , that as we finde at your hands Mr B. little brotherly dealing ( traducing vs in all places as Brownists , Schismatiques , Anabaptists , & persons obstinate in sin ) so neyther indeed can we acknowledge any of you for brethren in that visible communion of Saincts which is the Church , notwithstanding the loving and respective remembrance wherein we haue very many amongst you severally considered for your personall graces .

Our reasons are these .

1. We cannot admonish any of you according to the rule & order of Christ , Math. 18. to which duety towards every brother in communion we are absolutely bound . 2. We can not acknowledge you for our brethen , but we must also acknowledge your Prelates for our reverend fathers , vnder whose blessings we mean not to come . 3. We cannot acknowledge some of you brethren , but we must acknowledg all amongst you for such : for there is but one brotherhood of all amongst you , as your owne rhyme teacheth ( and makest vs all one brotherhood ) . Now by the scriptures we have not The Lords prayer in Rhyme : learnt to enter any such fraternity , where we must acknowledge brother Preist , brother half Priest , brother dumb Preist , brother Atheist , brother Epicure , brother drunkerd , brother blasphemer , brother witch , brother conjurer , & lastly brother recusant Papist , if not living yet dead , for so you must bury him as your deare brother , committing his soul to God , and his body to the earth .

And for these causes among others , we cannot acknowledge you ( as we desire ) in that speciall fellowship of the gospel , & communion of saynts .

But disclayme you the fatherhood of the Prelates , the brotherhood of the vnhallowed multitude , and fest your selves in the family , and househould of God , and we will acknowledge you in word and deed .

We will not with that vngodly brother grudge your comming into our fathers house , but will help with our owne hands to kill the fat calf , & wil make all spirituall melody with you in the Lord .

The fifth errour reputed is ,

That onely Saincts , that is , a people forsaking all knowne sinne of which Mr B. they may be convinced , doing all the knowne will of God , encreasing and abiding ever therein are the onely matter of the visible Church .

This Position , which you account errour , rightly vnderstood , Answ. and according to his exposition from whom you received it , is an vndoubted truth . For of such onely ( externally , and so farre as men can iudge ) the true Church is gathered , whether out of Paganism , Iudaism , Antichristianism , or any other Idolatrous , or adulterous estate whatsoever , and of them alone framed , as of the subject matter : which is onely true , whilest it continueth such , & false when it degenerates from this disposition , and so as rotten & putrified stuffe to be cast out of the Church .

We will then come to your allegations to the contrary .

And first you say , this is a proper description of the invisible members Mr B. of Iesus Christ , secluding even hypocrites from being true matter of the visible Church .

All the true and lawfull members of the visible Church , are to Answ. me members of the invisible Church , to me , Isay , which am bound to iudge them to be in truth , as outwardly they appear : & so I am taught by the Apostle himself who accounts the whole visible Ch: and every member of it † † Act. 20. 28. 1 Cor. 1. 2. Ephe. 1. 3. 4. 5. Gal. 3. 27. Phil. 1. 4. 5. 6. 7. elect , redeemed , iustifyed sanctifyed , which are conditons competent to the invisible Church .

And for hypocrites , as they may perform all the conditions here required ( visible or to vs ) as Mr Smyth hath answered , so do we take knowledge of none such in the Chur : in the particular , til they be knowne in their day by the outbreakings of sinne , and being so discovered , they are no longer to be reteyned in the Church , but to beare their sinne , except they repent , and then who can repute them hypocrites ?

You object secondly , that this makes that David , Iehoshaphat , Mr B. and the Church of God in their dayes were no true matter of a Church , for there was marrying many wives , the continuance of the high places , the brasen serpent worshipped , Ioabs murder permitted , the bill of divorsement allowed by Moses : so after Corinth and the Church of Asia being admonished repented not , 2 Cor. 12. 21. Rev. 2. 20. 21.

To let passe here Mr Smythes erroneous and Anabaptistical answer , Answ. wherein he makes the constitution of the Iewish Church the constitution of the old testament , when as the Church of the Iewes was constituted in “ “ Gen. 17. Rom. 5. 20 Gal. 3. 17. 19. Abraham 400 & 30 yeres before the law or old testament was given , which was after added clean for an other end then to constitute a Church : the ordinances and communion he makes merely ceremoniall and carnall , which the scriptures expresly call † † 1 Cor. 10. 4. spiritual , whereof also prayer & prophe●ying were parts , neyther are our ordinances more spirituall ',' ',' Luk. 22. 19. remembrances of Christ come , then were theirs in their true and naturall relation , spirituall * * Heb. 10. 1 shadowes of Christ to come .

I do answer to the exception , first that you cannot prove the holy men you name to haue sinned in all the particulars wherwith you charge them , as Moyses in tolerating the bill of divorcement which you injuriously affirm he allowed , much lesse can you prove they were convinced of sin in suffering these things , and yet suffred them . Nay is it not your owne doctrine , that grace , and continuance in sin without repentance cannot stand together ? But what countenance doe the infirmities of these holy men give to the prophane and graceles multitude against whom we deal ? and whom alone we cast out of the account of Saincts ? with what conscience or colour can any man bring in the infirmities of Moses , David , and Iehoshaphat to plead the Saintship of all that godles crew in the English assemblies ?

And for the Churches of Corinth , & Thyatira , eyther they did repent vpon admonition , though not at the first , or els the Lord in his time discharged them , as he threatned in the same , & the like cases . Rev. 2. 5. 16. 21. 22. & 3. 15. 16.

The third exception is that the scriptures we bring are places speaking Mr B. of invisible members properly , of visible figuratively , as they are iudged to be , on in hope they may be , or sh●wing what men ought to be , but shew not that men are so , or els are not Gods people .

It cannot be manifested that we bring one scripture meant of Answ. the invisible Church , to prove the holynes of the visible Church . The vanity of this obiection hath been discovered in the exposition of that your picked instance , 1 Pet. 2. It is true indeed that the scriptures we cite speak of men as they are iudged to be , and if you would graunt , that onely they are true members of the Church which by the word of God , ( which must be the rule of our iudgement ) may be iudged saincts , it would end this controversie . And even for them without , though never so prophane , they ought to be holy , and there is hope they may be holy , but Gods people must be such as they ought to be in some measure , & so are all they whome he receives into covenant with him , and if they fall from their righteousnes and will not be reclaymed , they are to be put * * 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. out and to be delivered to Satan , whose vassals they are , and not Gods people any longer . Mr B.

In the 4. place you come to speak of this saint-ship in question negatively , and affirmatively . First you deny men to be called saints in scripture , eyther for soundnes of knowledge , for proof of which you alledge the ignorance of Christs disciples and others , Act. 19. 1. 2. or for internal pure affections , for then ( say you ) Paul had been no saint , Rom. 7. Answ. 18. 21. or for holy practise of their dutie alwayes : for which you quote Est. 7. 12. Which is all one as if you should say , the scriptures do not call men saints because they are saints , but for some other causes knowne to you . For what is it to be a sainct , but to be holy ? And what to be holy , but to be of a sound iudgement , pure affections , and vnblameable conversation ? And here Mr B. you speak both injuriously , and weakly ; injuriously in insinuating against vs , as if we held no men saynts but such as are free from all humayne fraylties . Weakly , in affirming the disciples of Christ had not sound knowledge , because they were ignorant of many things : that Paul had not pure affections , because he had some flesh yet dwelling in him : and that there cannot be the constant practise of holy duties , notwithstanding such fraylties , as to which all men are subiect . Whereas to all men of vnderstanding , soundnes of judgement is one thing , and infallibility an other : purity in affection one thing , and perfection in purity another : and so an holy conversation one thing , and ●● a life without all humane fraylty an other thing vnatteynable in this life .

The Apostle Paul † † 1 Cor. 13 12. knew but in part , how small then is our pittance in knowledge ? & yet our affections come short of our knowledge , and our practise of our affections , and desires : and yet we doubt not ( by the riches of the grace of God ) but we haue all atteyned to soundnes of knowledge , purity of affections , and holynes of conversation , how small and weak soever our measure be .

Thus having considered of the exceptions against such marks of saynt-ship , as we set downe , we will come to view the badges , by which the authour will haue saynts descryed , & acknowledged . Mr B.

First ( say you ) men are called saynts because of their outward calling to Christianity as 1 Cor. 1. 1. which is holy and to an holy end , 1 Thes. 4. 7.

If your meaning be , that men because of their externall calling A●s●● . on Gods part , or that the gospel is preached vnto them , are therefore saynts , whether they beleeve the gospel , or beleeve it not , you mistake too much , for then all the persequuters and blasphemers to whom Paul preached , should be saynts : yea it is an errour to think that Paul stiles any sayntes by calling in that place but such as were truely sanctifyed , so far as he could discerne . For the same persons he terms saynts by calling , he acknowledges in the same as sanctifyed in the Lord Iesu● , which implyes both justification & sanctification .

And where you adde , that the end of the Church is holynes 1 Thes. 4. 2. as the thing you affirme is true , so the truth of it is sufficient to manifest the vnholy constitution of your Church , & your as vnholy defence of it . For if the end of the calling of the Church be sanctity and holines to the glory of God , which is the supream end , Math. 5. 16. then th● constitution and gathering of the Ch: of England , which at the first was ( I mean after the Romish Apostasie ) and still is of persons for the most part apparantly vnholy , and vnsanctifyed , as it is most praei●diciall to the glory of God , so doth it not onely frustrate but most directly crosse & oppose the end for which the Lord in great mercy , wisdome , and holines , separateth his Church and people vnto himself from the rest of the prophane world .

And as it is a certaine signe that a Minister is not called into his place , if he be not in some measure qualifyed with such holy gifts , and graces as serve to the ends of the Ministery to which he is called , ( which you both affirme , and confirm vndeniably , pag. 132. 133. of this book ) so is it also in iust proportion a certayn , and infallible argument , that the nationall Church of England , ( and so of the Churchlings vnder it ) is not called into covenant and communion with God being gathered of such persons ( in the body of it ) as are onely vtterly vnanswerable but clean contrarily affected to the ends of the true Church which are holynes , and the glory of God .

And where you Mr B. would fasten the name of saynts vpon people vnworthy of it , by a similitude drawn from a Minister a● ▪ the first rightly called to his office , but after shewing himself vnworthy of it , whom you wil stil have called a minister . I answer , that if he were known to be vnworthy of it at the first or not known to be worthy , he was not rightly called eyther to the office , or by the name : and if he afterwards shew himself vnworthy , he is to be censured accordingly , and so with the office to forfeyt the name : ( though he hold both with you ) & so it is with men in the generall calling of Christianity : they that are vnworthy of it are never called of God to take it vpon them , and if they prove vnworthy afterwards , they are to be deprived of Christian society .

2 Because of the profession of faith in Christ who maketh all true beleevers Mr B. holy and sancts .

It is true you say that Christ makes all true beleevers holy and Saints , Answer . but I deny that every profession of faith in Christ argues a true beleever . A false dissembler is he , and no true beleever that in word pretends faith in Christ , and in deed denyes him .

3. In respect of Baptisme , by which externally the partie baptised is to be Mr B. iudged to have put on Christ . Gal. 3. 27. to have remission of his sinnes , Act. 2. 39. to be partaker of Christs death , Rom. 6. 3. 4. Col. 2. 21. and to have assurance of salvation , 1 Pet. 3. 21.

All persons baptized neyther do in truth , nor are by vs to be Answer . judged to haue put on Christ , to haue remission of sinnes , &c. but onely such as to whom by vertue of the covenant of grace , baptisme apperteyneth . We must not conceive of baptisme as of a charme , or think it effectuall to all it is put vpon , but must judge it avayleable and of vse , according to the * * Gen. 17. 7 & 26. 4. Act. 2. 38. 39. & 3. 25 ● Cor. 7. 14. covenant of promise which God hath made to the faithful and their seed , and none otherwise .

And baptisme administred to any others is so farr from investing them with any saynt-ship in that estate , as it makes guilty both the giver and receiver of sacriledge , and is the taking of Gods name in vayne .

4 In respect of the better part , though the fewer by many , for thus the Mr B. scripture speakes , Deut. 1. 23. 24. 1 Cor. 6. 11. with 5. 1. 2 Cor. 12. 21.

The scriptures never ascribe holines to a people for some fewes Answer . sake , if the rest be vnholy , and prophane . I read in the scriptures that vncleane persons and things do † † Lev. 14. 46. 47 & 15. 4. 11. 12 Hag. 2. 12. 13. 14. pollute , and vnhallow clean persons and things , & that a “ “ 1 Cor. 5. 6. 7. little leaven levens the whol lump : but that clean persons or things should hallow persons or things , which are vnclean , or that a little sweet meal should make sweet a sower lump that read I not , but the contrary confirmed by the forenamed scriptures . And for the Ch: of the Iewes & of Corinth in which you instance , as they were holy ( omitting other respects ) for the holy covenant into which the Lord had assumed the body of them . Rom. 11. 16. so were the desperately wicked amongst them no true members of the body , but as putrifyed and rotten parts to be cut off , and cast out from the rest . And where Paul writes , to the Church at Corinth , stiles them sayntes , and advertises them , to excommunicate the incestuous person , what can be more vnreasonably affirmed then that the incestuous person was one of these Saincts ? as though Paul had written to him to cast out himself , which must needs follow by Mr B. assertion and proofes of it .

5. In respect of the visible signes of Gods favour , promise , and presence to Mr B. be with his , &c. as Ierusalem was called the holy city . Mat. 4. 5. Answ.

But we deny your nationall Church to be that * * Rom. 21. 2. holy city , the new Ierusalem coming downe from God out of heaven . It is rather Babylon , though much purged and repayred . And Babylon cannot be Ierusalem , nor was ever holy , not withstanding the spoiles of Ierusalem , and of the Temple also be found there : as were in the civil Babylon many Israelites captived , and with them the holy vessels , the holy instruments , yea the holy writings of the Prophets , & their persons also , 2 Chron. 10. 18. Psal. 137. 1. 2. D. 9. 1 , 2.

6. In respect of Gods good pleasure who lookes not vpon his Church , as the Mr B. particular members thereof are , but as he accepteth of them : therefore it is sayd , He saw none iniquity in Iaakob , nor transgression in Israel . Num. 23. 21. and yet Israel was then an vnbeleeving and stifnecked people .

Here you say and vnsay with one breath . You graunt Israel Answ. to haue been an holy people and without iniquity , as Balaam spake , in the Lords acceptance according to his good pleasure , and yet to have been at the same time an unbeleeving and stifnecked people , which affirmation as it conteynes in it an apparant contradiction , so doth it lay vpon God an vnsufferable imputation , as though he took pleasure in the wicked , or did accept of them .

It cannot be denyed but the people ever and anon rose vp in rebellion against the Lord : and for instance in the Chapter next but one before going , through impatiency of their ordinary food , they murmured against God , and against Moses . Numb. 21. 4. 5.

But did things so continue ? No verily , for the Lord sent fyery serpents amongst them , and destroyed many of them , and by his correction brought the rest to repentance ● vers. 6. 7. And now as at other times , when they provoked him , smit them with grievous plagues & punishments , and so causing them to passe vnder the rod and picking out the cheif rebels , and sifting out the sinners to destruction , and brought them againe Ex. 32. 27. Numb. 11. 1. 2. Ps. 78 17. 18. 19. 21. 31. &c. Ezech. 20. 37. 3● . Amos . 9. 8. 9. 10. into the covenant .

And thus much of your respects of Sainct-ship whereof some are not true in themselves , others impertinent to your estate , and the most flatly condemning it .

And though you Mr B. say it never so oft , and all the divines in the world with you ( as here you speak ) that the visible Church is a mixt company ( as your very owne book of Articles affirms the contrary , describing the Church to be a company of faithfull people ) yet do the divine scriptures speak otherwise , which I will clearly manifest , and therein also free the Parable , Math. 13. which you bring in for proofes , from that violence , which you and others offer them : forcing Christ clean against his will to plead for Antichrist . And with the scriptures I do affirme against you , that the Church of Christ is no such mingled meslyne , or monstrous compound , but a body simple , vniform , & one , proportionable in every member vnto the head , informed by one spirit , and called in one hope , Ephe. 4. 4.

And for wicked , and vngodly persons so farr are they from being the true naturall members whereof the body consisteth , as the whol of the parts , as they serve indeed for no other purpose then to infect , and corrupt the rest , and if redresse be not had in time , to eat out the very hart of the whole .

But before I come to the point in controversy , I will lay down two cautions for the preventing of errour in the simple , & of cavelling in such as desire to contend .

First it must be considered , that where the quaestion is about I. the visible or externall Church which is by men discernable , and not of that Church which is internall and invisible , which onely the Lord knoweth , we speak here of visible and externall holynes onely , whereof men may judge , and not of that which is within and hid from mans ey . For we doubt not but the purest Ch: vpon earth may consist of good and bad in Gods ey , of such as are truely faythfull , and sanctifyed , & of such as have onely for a tyme put on the outside and vizard of sanctity , which the Lord will in due tyme pluck of , though in the mean while mans dim sight cannot pearce through it .

2. I desire it may be remembred that the question betwixt Mr B. II. and me is about the true and naturall members whereof the Ch: is orderly gathered and planted , and not about the degenerate & decayed estate of the Church & members ; for we know that naturall * * Is. 1. 2. 21. 22. Ier. 2. 21. children may become rebellious , the faithful city an harlot , the silver drosse , and the wyne corrupt with water : the noble vine so planted whose plants were all naturall , may degenerate into the plantes of a strange vine . But as it were fond Phylosophy , in the description of wives and children , and their true & naturall properties , to make rebellion a property of a child , because many children prove rebels against their parents , or to make whoredome a property of a wife , because many wives prove vnfaithful that way , so is it as prophane divinity to make vngodly persons the true matter of the Church , & their profanenes a true property of the same , because many seeming saynts at the first do so creep in , and do afterwards discover their owne shame , & are oft times through want of zeal too long tolerated in the Church , to the dishonour of God & prejudice of the gospel .

And so I come to manifest by an induction of particulars , that all the visible Churches gathered and planted by the Lords line & level from the beginning of the world were in their collection & constitution , simple , vniform , and vnmixt , consisting of good alone in the respect in hand .

And first the Lord created a Church of Angels in heaven , which wer all good & holy without mixture , til † † 2 Pet. 2. 4 Iude , 6. some by sin fell from their first and originall estate , & so leaving their own habitation were cast down to hel .

After that God created a Church of mankind in Paradise , consisting of two persons both holy & good . And thus the Churches of creation were gathered of angels and men without mixture .

Now if any man object that in these instances I fetch my beginnings too farr of , my answer is that the Lord had , & hath the same ends and respects in the creating & restoring of his Ch: which are his own glory & their happines . And if it were the will of the Lord that persons notoriously wicked should be admitted into the Ch: then should he ditectly crosse himself & his own ends , & should receive into the visible covenant of grace such as wer out of the visible estate of grace , & should plant such in his Church for the glory of his name , as served for none other vse then to cause his name to be blasphemed ▪ Hereupon I frame an Argument thus .

That order for the gathering of Ch: which directly crosses the mayne ende● for which the Lord would have his Church gathered , is not of God .

But the order , for which Mr B. pleads ( which is , that apparantly prophane persons may with the godly be gathered into the visible Church ) crosses the Lords ends of gathering Churches : and therefore is not of God .

The former proposition is without controversie , the latter is thus manifested .

The mayne ends for which the Lord gathereth and preserveth his Church vpon earth are that he might have a * * Levit. 20 26. Gen. 4. 26. Mat. 5. 1● . 1 Pet. 2. 12. Act. 2. 47. ● Pe. ● . 7. 9. peculiar people separated vnto himselfe ; from all other peoples to call vpon his name in faith and to glorify him theyr heavenly father in their holy conversation , whom he also might glorify in the end of their fayth , the salvation of theyr soules . But for wicked & vngodly persons in the Church as they serve no no way for these ends but the contrary causing “ “ Rom. 2. 24. Gods name to be blasphemed , and † † Ephe. 5. 6. his wrath to come vpon their disobedience so to gather or admit them into the Church is vtterly to frustrate Gods ends , and to gather for Satan rather then for God .

To proceed . In the restoring of mankind & planting the first Ch: in the covenant of grace established in “ “ Gen. 3. 24 25. the seed of the woman , there were onely saynts , without any such mixture as Mr B. makes . Now as all true churches from the begining to the end of the world are one in nature and essentiall constitution , and the first the rule of the rest , so the first being gathered of good matter not bad , declares both Mr B. Church and opinion to be bad , and not good .

And when in processe of tyme * * 1 Ioh. 3. 12. Cain which was of the evill one , bewrayed himself he as a degenerate branch was broken of , & driven out of the visible presence of God , Gen: 4. 14. it is further imputed by Moses for sin to † † Gen. 6. 2. the sonnes of God that they maryed with the daughters of men . Now if it were ( & “ “ 1 Cor. ● . 39. still be ) unlawfull for the godly to contract with the wicked in the civil covenant of mariage , how much more in the religious covenant of the Church & communion of Saints ?

To discend lower ▪ God gave vnto Abraham and his family the covenant of circumcision , Gen. 17. 10. which the Apostle , Rom. 4. 11. calls the seal of the righteousnes of faith . Now to affirm that the Lord would seale vp with the visible seale of the righteousnes of faith any visibly unrighteous & faythles person were a bould chalenge of the most High , for the profanation of his owne ordinance . And the same covenant which God at the first made with Abraham , & continued with Isaak & Iakob , he after renued with the whole Church sundry tymes upon their repentance , in regard wherof the scriptures give very honourable testimony of al & every one of them : as that they were * * Isa. 5 ▪ 1. 2. 3 , 5. Ier. 2 , 21. the Lords pleasant plant , & vineyard hedged in , planted with the best plants , yea a noble vyne , whose plants were all natural , yea natural branches , though they did oft tymes degenerate into the plant of a strange vyne , and were therefore oft tymes forsaken of God , and in the end † † Rom. 11. 16. 17. for their infidelitie quite broken off .

Lastly when Iohn Baptist the fore-runner of Christ , Christ himself , and his Apostles were to repayr the desolations of Sion , and to plant the Gentiles “ “ Rom. 11. 17 into the root of the Iewes , and to make them * * Eph. 3. 6. one inheritance , and one body with them , they did not by the coactive lawes of men shuffle together good and bad as intending a new monster or Chymera , but admitted of such , and none other , as † † Mat. 3. 6. Luk. 7. 29. 30. confessed their sinne and iustified God : as * * Ioh. 15. 18 19. 17. 16. were not of the world , but chosen out of it , and hated of it : as “ “ Act. 2. 41 42. 46. did receive the word gladly , and communicate ●● of them in all things , as every one had need and that in gladnes and singlenes of hart : as received testimony by the H. Ghost himself that they were such as should be saved : as were “ “ Act. 20. 28. al of them purchased with the blood of God : as † † Rom. 1. 8. for al whom there was cause to thank God : as whom the Apostle * * Phil. 1. 3. 4. 6. 7. 8. did remember in his prayers with gladnes , being perswaded that God could perfect his good work begon in the as became him to iudge of them all , being al partakers of the grace of God with him in the confirmation of the Gospel , and after all whom he longed from the verie hart root in Christ : as “ “ 1 Thes. 1. 2. 3. & 2. Epist. 1. 3. for all whom he gave thanks , alwayes making mention of them in his prayers without ceasing , remembring their effectual fayth , diligent love , and patient hope in the Lord Iesus , which did grow in every one of them .

Here is no such mingle mangle as M. B. would make of good and bad , but al good , and so avowed by the Holy Ghost , though without doubt many of these were masked , and hollow-harted hypocrites whose goodnes was but † † Hos. 6. 4. as the goodnes of Ephraim and Iudah , like the morning cloud , and like the dew which falle● in the morning , & ●ades away .

And now I will come to the two parables , Mat. 13. with which as with two mighty Engines Mr B. & others , will needs push over the partition wall of separation of the saynts from the world , of righteousnes from unrighteousnes , of light from darknes , of Christ from Beliall , of the beleevers from the vnbeleevers .

And for ingresse into the exposition of these two parables of the field and draw nett , I do desire it may be considered , that for the atteyning of the right sense of the scriptures we must remember to interpret the more dark and obscure places by places more playne and easy ; and so parables being dark speaches , and more hardly vnderstood without expresse exposition , Mat. 13. 10. 11. Mark , 4. 11 , 12 , are not to expound playne rules , but to be expounded by them . Which proviso alone being observed might stand in stead of all answer to whatsoever out of these perverted parables could be objected .

The point is , Mr B. following ( I confesse ) the most beaten way , makes the field the visible Church , and the tares scandalous offenders , seen and discovered . Wherevpon it must follow , that as the Lord forbids the servants to meddle with the tares , or with the plucking them vp , but will haue them , & the wheat to grow together in the feild till the harvest , so both ministers and people are str●ytly inhibited and forbidden any way to admonish & censure wicked and scandalous persons in the Church , but must let them there remayne without disturbance , till the last judgement .

The venemous weeds , the noysome tares , ( Idolaters , hereticks , covetous persons , blasphemers and all ) whose nature is to overspread and choak the wheat , must be suffred still to grow with it . And thus at once by this one prophane glosse , all the tex●s of scriptures , and commaundements of Christ , both for admonitions , and excommunications , are vtterly voided and annihilated . The brethren , nay the ministers themselves may not medle with the tares , the wicked , to admonish or reprove them , they must be let alone ; the sword of the Censures so gratiously given to cut of rotten members , must no more now be drawn out , but must rust in the sheath of this exposition , notwithstanding all the playn scriptures to the contrary , Lev. 19. 17. ● Thes. ● . 14. 1 Tim. 5. 30. & 2 Ep. 4. 2. Mat. 18. 15. 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. All the power of our L. Iesus Christ given to his Church for the rooting out of obstinate offenders , & casting down of every thing exalting it self against the knowledge of God is not onely weakened , but even disanulled by this vnreasonable exposition , that tares , that is , notorious offenders must still be suffred to grow in the feild , the Church .

And if the parable be thus meant , how can it be defended that any Church should cast out any offenders whomsoever ? how dare the Prelates in Engl: with their substitutes take this forbidden weedhook into their hands , & vse it against any tare amongst them ? if any tares be to be plucked vp , why not all ? & if all be to be let alone , why meddle they with any ? Indeed I must needs acknowledge & will not wrong them , that if they should execute their owne canons , as they have framed them , they should not very oft practise against this exposition , nor gather the tares from among the wheat , but the wheat from amongst the tares . But to proceed . It may be some wil answer , that Christ doth not here absolutely forbid his disciples the vse of the Censures against the wicked , but rather acquaints than before hand what wil be the estate of the Ch: & how the wicked wil be suffred to continue in it vncensured . And if this were so it made nothing against me , nor for Mr B : it were the Churches sin so to suffer them , & I deny not but Churches vsually are to negligent & remisse , through want of zeal & faithfulnes to the Lord in this duty . But it is plain the Lord Iesus layes a flat inhibition against the weeding out of these tares , & expresly commaunds to let them alone : & this commandement also he backes with two substantial reasons , the first least they pluck vp the wheat with the tares . v. 29 : the 2. because the Lord hath appointed another time , the tyme of the harvest for the plucking them out , v. 30. Now some being ashamed of the grosnes , & in deed of the iniquity of this exposition , would fayne moderate & qualify the matter , by turning it off to these & these sinns , & sinners . Some say that by the tares are meant the ministers onely , & that they are not to be medled with , though they transgresse , least the wheat be plucked vp with them : as though the Lord would have the persons of men respected in judgement : yea verily there is more need to look to them in such cases , then to any private members whomsoever , as whose sinns are more displeasing vnto God , more scandalous to them without , & more pernitious to the Church then of any others . Some again wil have this prohibition onely to take place , when the multitude of the offenders is so great , as that they cannot be censured without danger of schisme , and distraction , as though the multitude of offenders should priveledge the offence , and as though the Lord Iesus by his power given to his Church ; 1 Cor. 5. 4. should fear to meddle with them for their multitude , and might , as David feared to meddle with the sonnes of Zeruiah , because they were too hard for him . The Apostle sayth , ( speaking of the incestious man ) that † † 1 Cor. 5. 6. ▪ little leaven leaveneth the whole lump : how much more a great deal , which makes all more sower .

And for answer to both , it is apparant the Lord here forbidds the rooting out of any tares whither fewer or more in number , whither of high or low growth .

Let men then cease to draw in by the hayr of the head these parables for the tolerating of the wicked in the Church : ( an intollerable wickednes ) as most prejudicial to the * * Isa. 52. 5. Rom. 2. 24. name of God , which is by this meanes blasphemed , to the partyes salvation , who by this connivency is hardned in his sinne , where by “ “ 1 Cor. 5. 5 due censuring , he should be humbled : to the health and safety of the body which is hereby corrupted and * * Heb. 12. 15. defyled , and to the conversion of them without , who by the ‘. ‘. Math. 5. 16. 1 Pet. 2. 12. & 2 epist. 3. 1. holy converversation of the Church should be provoked to the love of the truth .

These things being thus cleared , I come in the next place to the true and naturall exposition , which ( I doubt not ) these scriptures will well bear .

I do then find two interpretations , eyther of both ( I am assured ) more agreable to the truth , then this forced glosse by me confuted , and neyther of them conteyning in it any thing which the words of the Parable will not beare , or which is dissonant to the analogy of faith or any other scripture .

First admit the feyld be the Church which Christ expounds the world , then say I , by tares in the feild are meant not notorious offenders , but hypocrites , not so throughly discovered , which by the envy of Satan are foysted into the Church . It wil be sayd that tares are easily discerned from wheat : I answer not alwayes so , though oakes may , as one of your owne hath spoken upon this scripture : Mr Cartw. and it is certainly reported by such as have travayled Iury & those parts , to which the Lord hath reference , that the weeds we call tares are there very hardly discerned from the true wheat . If it be further pressed that the tares are espied , I do further answer , that it is in parables both curiosity and danger to labour to make all partes meet in every particular : and since this particular of spying the tares is omitted by Christ in the exposition wee may well be modest in it . But let it be that the tares are seen ( as the words are ) the question is who those servants are espying them , and so desiring to have them rooted out . These servants may well be some speciall persons in the Church endued with a singular spirit of watchfulnes , and discerning , by which they do discover in some persons this tarish disposition vnder the ●ayl of holynes : so Paul spied out that bitter root of envy , and pride , by which some were Phil. 1 ▪ 15. 16. set a work to preach Christ : such persons notwithstanding must be born till their sinnes be ripe , and * * Psa. 125. 5. the Lord lead them forth amongst the workers of iniquity . Or by the servants may be here meant the Angels , who by conversing much with the Ch: both can & without doubt do through the subtilty of their nature , & long experience spy out in the Church much cloked wickednes , & impiety , which as the zealous ministers of Gods justice they are ready to revenge .

But since the Lord Iesus , who best knew his owne meaning , calls ‘* ‘* vers. 38. the feild the world , and makes † † v. 39. the harvest which is the end of the field , the end of the world , and not of the Church , why should we admit of any other interpretation ? Neyther is it like that Christ would in the expounding of one parable speak an other , as he should have done , if calling the feyld the world , he had meant the Church . As God then in the beginning made man good , & placed him in the field of the world there to grow , where by the envy of the serpent he was soon corrupted , so ever since hath the seed of the serpent ( stirred vp by their father the Divel ) snarled at the heel of the womans seed , and like noysome tares vexed and pestered the good and holy seed , which though the children of God both see , and feel to their payne , yet must they not therefore † † Luk. 9. 54. 56. forgetting what spirit they are of , presently call for fyre from heaven , nor prevent the Lords hand , but wayt his leasure , eyther for the converting of these tares into wheat , ( which in many is dayly seen ; and then how great pitty had it been they should so vntimely have been plucked vp : ) or for their finall perdition in the day of the Lord , when the Church shal be no more offended by them .

And that the Lord Iesus no way speaks of the toleration of prophane persons in the 〈…〉 Church doth appear by these reasons .

First , because ( as hath been observed ) he doth not contradict I. himself by forbidding the vse of the keyes in one place , which in an other he hath turned vpon impenitent offenders , Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17.

2. In the excommunication of sinners apparantly obstinate , II. with due circumspection , and in the spirit of wisdome , meeknes , & long suffring , with such other generall Christian vertues , as with which all our speciall sacrifices ought to be seasoned , wha● daunger can there be of any such disorder , as the plucking vp of the wheat with the tares , which the husbandman feareth . vers. 29. III.

Lastly the Lord Iesus speaks of the vtter ruinating & destruction of the tares , the gathering and plucking them vp by the rootes , vers. 28. 29. and to this end they are reserved by the husbandman , v. 30. ( ever presupposed they so continued ) but excommunication rightly administred is not for the ruyne , and destruction of any , but for the salvation of the party thereby humbled . 1 Cor. 5. 5.

But , to conclude , admit of Mr B. exposition , & that the field here is the visible Church , the good seed the good , & godly , the tares wicked and vngodly persons , I am contented that the difference in this place betwixt him and me be tryed at the tribunall of this very scripture , even thus expounded , and I doubt not but it will pronounce a cleare sentence on my side in the thing for which I contend : and that is , that the Church in the right gathering of it out of Antichristianism , or Paganisme , out of Babylon , Egypt , Sodome spiritually , or civily so called , or out of any other society or Synagogue , which is not the true visible body of Christ , must be & is constituted and compact of good onely , & not of good & evill .

The Lords field is sowen onely with good seed . vers. 24. 27. 38. his * * Ier. 2. 21. vyne noble , and all the seed true , his Church † † Rom. 1. ● . 8. saynts and beloved of God all and every one of them , though by the mallice of Satan , and negligence of such as should keep this field , & vineyard , & house of God , adulterate seed , and abominable persons may be foysted in , yea and suffred also , which the scriptures affirm , and we deny not . But our exception in this case is , first that the Church of England was never truely gathered , the Church of England I say , that that is , the National Church , consisting of the Provinciall Churches , and those of the Diocesan Churches , and the Diocesans of the Parochyall Churches , according to their parish precincts , with their governours & government correspondent . That there were true visible Churches in the land gathered out of Paganism at the first , I will not deny , but that ever the whole Land in the body of it was a Church is an affirmation of them which consider not what is eyther the matter whereof , or the manner how the Church of the new Testament is to ●e gathered . 2. Graunt that the way of the kingdom of Christ , the Church were now so wyde that a whol nation might walk a brest in it , and that England had been some times that Canaan , the holy land , wherein none vncircumcised person dwelt , yet in the apostasy of Antichrist it could not be so accounted , but was in the body of it divorced from Christ with Rome , whereof it was a member , except you ( Mr B. ) will affirm ( as many do ) that Rome remaines still a true visible Church , and that antichristianism is true Christianism , Antichristians true Christians , the body which hath the Pope the head , the true body of Christ : & so except the Church of Engl. had been sowen with good seed without tares since that general apostasie , it cannot be the L. field .

The Iewes were forbidden by God vnder the law to * * Lev. 19. 19. sow their field with divers seeds , and will he sow his own feyld with divers , yea with contrary seeds , wheat , & tares ? What husbandman is eyther so foolish , or carles , as to sow his field with tares & wheat together ? And yet this fair field of Engl: of whose beauty all the Christian world is enamoured , is so sowen , this pleasant orchyard so planted , this ●lourishing Ch: so gathered . A few kernels of wheat scattered amongst the tares here & there , a few good plants amongst the wilde branches , a smal strinkling of good men amongst the great & retchles rowt of wicked & graceles persons . And was this field sowen , this orchard planted , this Church gathered , by the Lords hand ?

And as was the root , so are the branches , as were the first fruits , so is the whole lump .

To conclude this point , thus I reason . The Lords field is sowen with good seed onely , though tares may in time be conveyed into it by the Divels mallice and mans negligence . But the Engl: nationall Ch: was not so sowen , but with tares & wheat together .

Therefore it is not the Lords field .

And thus I hope the indifferent reader wil easily see what succour Mr B. findes amongst those tares , under whose shadow he would so fayne shrowd all the Atheists Papists & other flagitious persons in the Church .

Now for the Parable of the draw net , Mat. 13. I confesse the bad fishes may be wicked persons in the Church , but undiscerned , as fishes vnder the water , between which & the good no difference is seen . If the fishers and they that drew the netts did know of the bad fishes in them , and had meanes of voyding them , they would never burden themselves , and the nett with them , ( except you will have as foolish fishermen here , as you had husbandmen before , ) but till they do discern them to be as they are , they must take them , as they hope they are , though with you all be fish that come to the net , yea good fish too , till the Commissaries court judge otherwise .

And lastly to your saying , wel it were that all were saints : but that is to look for a heaven vpon earth , I answer that the Church is heaven vpon earth : and if you were not a straunger to the true Church and to such scriptures as speaks of it , you should find as in many other places , so espetially in the Revelation the Church visible oft Rev. 4. 1. 2. & 6. 13. 14 & 8. 1. 10. 13. & 11. 6. 19. & 12 1. 3. 7. &c. dignifyed with the name of heaven and with no name oftener . Yea to seek no further then these two parables brought in by you to speak against heaven , that is against the true & natural constitution , & conservation of the visible Church , Christ himself & that with his own mouth gives the Church no worse name then “ “ Math. 13. 24. 47. heaven , and the kingdom of heaven , & the onely ordinary beaten way which Christ hath left to heaven in heaven , is heaven on earth , which way soever you please to guide men .

The sixth insimulation against vs is that we hold . Mr B.

That the power of Christ , that is authority to preach , to administer the sacraments , and to exercise the Censures of the Church , belongeth to the whole Church yea to every one of them , and not to the principall m●bers thereof .

If Mr B. were but as able to confute vs by just reason , as he is Answ. willing to bring vs into hatred by unjust and odious accusations , we should then have as much cause to feare his skill , as now we have to complayn of his mallice . Onely herein his skill is to be commended , that where he findes not our opinions such as he thinks wil be disliked by the simple multitude , he makes them such , and so deales against them .

Here come in many things of great weight to be discussed : and although it were in it self the readyest way to reduce things to some heads , and so to prosequute them in order , yet since I have taken this task vpon me to trace Mr B. in the particulars , therfore I purpose to follow him step by step , notwithstanding all his vnorderly wandrings and excursions .

And first Mr B. charging vs with errour for giving authority to preach , minister the sacraments , excercise the censures to the whole Church , and not to the principall members thereof , playnely insinuates that the authority to do all these things amongst them is in the principall members of the Church . But the truth is otherwise in the parish Church of Worksop , and in all other the parish Churches in the land . You have one onely member that hath power , ( and that vnder the ordinary ) to any of these things , and that your self the parrish Priest , though perhaps the parish clerk may by speciall indulgence be licensed , to bury the dead , Church women , read service on light holy dayes , and do some such like drudgery in your absence . But for the exercising of the censures , that belongs not to the whole body , or to any member thereof principall , or lesse principall , but to the Bishops and his substitute , which are forreyners and strangers as in theyr office from the true Church , so even in theyr persons from yours . All your portion in the censures Mr B. is to do the exequutioners office , when the Officiall hath played the iudge , which if you should be so bold as to refuse , besydes the punishment of your contumacy , the Church doore would do your office , for the bull of excommunication hanged vp there by the sumner byndes the offenders both in heaven & earth . And for the position it self , howsoever we do indeed maynteyne the most of the particulars against which Mr B. intends his refutation , yet as he sets it down , we do vtterly disclayme it with all the errors in it .

First for teaching in the Church we do not vse it promiscuously , nor suffer it to be vsed but according to the order ( as we are perswaded ) which Christ and his Apostles have prescribed . And for the sacraments , the contrary to that which you affirme is to be seene of all men in our † † Article 34. confession of fayth , wherein it is held that no sacraments are to be administred vntill Pastors or Teachers be ordayned in theyr office : neyther have we practised otherwise ? And this Mr B. knew , when he writ this book , as well as our selves .

Thirdly , touching the censures we do expresly confesse that † † Act. 24. the power , as to receive in , so to cut of any member is given to the whole body together of every christian congregation , and not to any one member a p●●t , or to more members sequest●ed from the whole , vsing the m●etest member for the pronouncing the censures . And answerable to our profession is our practise : with what conscience then or credit Mr B : can father vpon vs those bastardly runnaga●es , let God , & men iudge .

These things being thus , the vntruthes , which he sayth we build vpon this opinion are his and not ours , as the groundwork is his , so is the whol building raysed from it . But touching interpretation of scripture by private brethren , and pollution by sinn vnreformed in the Church , & separation from it for the same , we shall speak in their places . Onely I desyre it may be observed that rather then Mr B. will forbeare to accuse vs that we hold it lawfull for one person to excommunicate the whole Church , he will back this most odious calumniation with as fond and false an assertion : and that is , that separating from a Church and Mr B. excommunicating of it is all one in substance , though called lesse odiously . Answ. But the contrary is manifested by these two reasons .

First excommunication is a sentence judiciall presupposing ever a solemn and superiour power over the party sentenced : but no such thing is inferred vpon separation .

2. Excommunication is onely of them which are * * 1 Cor: 5. 12. 13. Math. 18. 15. 17. 18. within and of the Church , but separation may be from them without . And I would know of Mr B. whither a person , though never so meane , might not separate from the assemblies of Pagans , Turkes , Iewes , Papists , & other haeretiques , and Idolaters ? I hope he would not draw such a man within his separatists schism : & yet for the same person to excommunicate such an assembly were a sinful prophanation of Gods ordinance . And though we held ( as we do nothing lesse ) that one man might excommunicate the whole Church , yet were it not more ( as you affirm ) then your Church allowes to any Bp. in Engl. no nor so much by a thousand parts : for one Bishop with you may excommunicate a thousand Churches : every Diocesan Bishop all the Churches in his Dioces , the two Provincial Bishops theyr two Provinces , so livelyly do the reverend fathers the Bishops resemble the holy father the Pope , which may judge all men , but be judged by none .

The next collection made agaynst us is that we hould that two Mr B. or three gathered together must be a Church which hath the whole power of Christ , and may presently make them officers & vse the discipline of Christ .

No such hast Mr B. of making officers presently : we make no dumb Answ. Ministers : neyther dare we admit of any man eyther for a teaching or governing Elder , of whose ability in prayer , prophecying , & debating of Church matters we have not had good experience , before he be so much as nominated to the office of an Elder amongst vs : remembring alwayes the deep charge of the Apostle to † † 1 T●● 5● 21. 22. lay hands suddeynly on man , nor to be partakers of other mens sums .

But this we hold and affirm that a company consisting though but of two or three separated from the world whither vnchristian , or antichristian , and gathered into the name of Christ by a covenant made to walk in all the wayes of God knowen vnto them , is a Church , and so hath the whole power of Christ . And for the clearing of this truth I will propound , and so prove by the scriptures these two heads .

1. First that a company of faithfull people thus covenanting together are a Church , though they be without any officers among them , conntrary to that your Popish opinion here insinuated , & els Mr B. where expressed , that a company is no where in all the new testament pag. 99. called a Church ( Christian familyes excepted ) but when they have theyr officers , and that otherwise they are called beleevers , Disciples , but not a Church but onely by anticipation as heaven and earth are so called before they were Gen. ● . 1. & that the officers give them the denomination of a Church .

2. That this company being a Church hath interest in all the II. holy things of Christ within & amongst themselves immediately vnder him the head , without any forreyn ayd , & assistance . Of which holy things in particular we shall consider as they come in our way .

These two grounds ( by the grace of God ) I will prove in order : and for the confirmation of the former take these reasons .

The first is gathered from the authours owne words , that a company I. of holy persons ( without officers ) are called beleevers , disciples , but not a Church which is all one , as if he sayd , that a Church is not called a Church , for the word Church , is no more then a company or † † 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . assembly howsoever gathered together : and so a set company of visible beleevers must needs be a constituted visible Church : and to manifest the vanity of that distinction , that one place shall serue Act: 19. 32. 40. Act. 11. 26. where in the same verse the same persons ▪ are called the Church , Disciples , and Christians .

Two or three or more people making Peters confession , Math. 16. are the Church . But two or three or more may make this confession without officers . Therefore such a company is a Ch:

The former proposition is evident by that promise Christ made * * Mat. 16 ▪ ●● ▪ 18. to build his Church vpon the rock of Peters confession .

The second , namely that men without officers may professe their faith is without question , except we will hold that without officers no men can be saved , Rom. 10. 10.

Thirdly , if the new Testament speak of ordeyning Elders in the Church , then doth it necessarily conclude yea expresly affirm , that there were Churches before Elders were ordeyned in them .

But the first is manifest Act. 14. 23. therefore the second . Neyther can Mr B●shift of the place by saying such assemblyes are called Churches by Anticipation , any more then the Papists can the scripture , 1 Cor 11. 26. against transubstantiation , by alledging that the Apostle speaks by Posticipation . For why may not the Papists as well answer that Paul calles Christs body bread , not because it is bread , but because it was bread before the words of consecration , as Mr B : that Luke calls the assemblyes without officers Churches , not because they were so , but were so to be after the Elders were ordeyned amongst them , neyther is it true which you affirme for confirmation of your distinction , that heaven and earth were so called before they were , Gen. 1. 1. the meaning of Moses onely is , that God created heaven and earth first , and when before they were not .

If yet it be further answered by any , that the Church Act. 14. had Apostles over them , it must be remembred , that Luke in that place and action of ordination notes out three distinct orders of people , the Apostles ordeyning Elders , the Elders ordeyned , and the Churches in which the Apostles ordeyned Elders .

Of the same nature is the fourth Argument grounded vpon 1 Cor. 12. 28. where God is sayd to have appointed or set in the Church Apostles , Prophets , Teachers , necessarily implying a Church before , wherein they were appointed : as a Sheriffe appointed in a shyre , a Maior in a City , a Constable in a Parish , a Steward in a familie do necessarily presuppose the Shyre , City , Parrish , Familie , wherein they are appointed . And indeed where should the Lord set his stewards but in his familie ? Is any societie capable of the Lords officers but his corporation ? Is not the Eldership an ordinance given to the Church ? & so the Elders called the “ “ Act. 20. 28. Elders of the Church . In the Church is not an ordinance given to the Elders , nor ever called their Church in the whole New Testament .

Fifthly they with whom the Lord makes his Covenant to be their God , and to have them his people , to dwel amongst them as in his temple , which have right to the promises of Christ , and to his presence , they are the Church of God , & of Christ . Gen. 17. 7. Lev. 26. 11. 12. Mat. 18. 17. 20. Apoc. 1. 11. 13. Heb. 8. 16.

But a company of faythful people , though they have no officers amongst them , may be received into Covenant with God , may be his temple , and have him dwell amongst them , may have right to Christ and to his promises , & presence , except we wil say they may not be gathered in Christs name , may not be called , may not come out from among unbeleevers nor separate themselves & touch none unclean thing . Mat. 18. 17. 20. Act. 2. 39. 2 Cor. 6. 16. 17. except they have Ministers going before them . For they that may † † 2 Cor. 6. 16 separate themselves from unbeleevers may be the temple of God , that is the true visible church , which the temple typed out .

Men are not to come out of Babylon , and there to stand stil , & remember the Lord a farr of , but must resort to the place where he hath put his name , for which they need not go eyther to Ierusalem , or to Rome , or beyond the seas , they may find Siòn the Lords mountain prepared on the top of every hil . If they as lively stones couple themselves together by voluntary * * 1 Pet. 2. 9. profession & covenant , they are a spirituall building , the Lords Temple .

6. If a company of faythful people without officers be not a Church , then if all the officers of a Church should dye or fall away the Church should be nullified , and become no church : and to come nearer home ( graunting for a while the parish of Worksop to be a company of faythfull people ) if Mr Bernard should leave his Vicaridge for a better , then the church of Worksop should be dischurched , and remayne a Church no longer : and thus an assembly might be Churched and vnchurched , and Churched agayn every week in the time of persecution or plague , by having and loosing , and recovering againe her officers : and thus the officers should not be the eyes or tongue of the body , for the body remaynes a true ( though an imperfect ) body without them , but the head of it : yea the Pope though he hold himself the head of the Church , yet acknowledgeth it a Church without him , and in the time of vacancy .

Wee read , Rev. 2. 5. that the Lord threatens to remove the candlestick from the Ephesians except they amend . Now the candlestick is the Church , chap. 1. 20. and to remove the candlestick is to dischurch the assembly , or to wipe it out of the beadrowl of Churches . Here is sin the discharging an assembly , but that the death of the officers should do it , is no where found . We will acknowledge the Ministers to be the † † Math 5. 4. Rev. ● 2● . lights , starres , & candles in the the candlestick the Church , & that the Ministers death or fall is the removing of the light in a great measure , but we may not graunt them to be the Candlestick : that is the Church , wherein they are set , as 1 Cor. 12. 28. which may stand still though they fall .

7. If a company of Saynts , where no officers are , be not a true VII . visible Church , then may they have no visible communion together eyther publick , or private ; the reason is , because the communion of saynts is an effect , or property of the Church , and the Church a cause of it : the invisible Church of invisible communion , and the visible Church of visible communion . And as we can have no fellowship with Christ in his merits , and other works of mediation , till we be in our persons ioyned vnto him by faith , and grafted in him , as the * * Ioh. 15. 1. 2. 4. braunches in the vine : so neither can we have communion one with another in any spirituall grace , or work , till we be vnited one to another in love , as the members of the body vnder the head . Communion in works whether naturall , civil , or religious , doth necessarily presuppose vnion of persons . Yea if such a company be not a Church , I see not how their seed can have right to baptism , no nor how their own baptism can be accounted true in the right ends , & vses of it . For 1. baptism is within , and not without the Church : Ephe. 4. 4. 5. Secondly , it is the seal of the covenant ( which is the form of the Church ) to the faithfull , and their seed , Act. 2. 38. 39. Thirdly , it is of the members into the body of Christ , 1 Cor. 12. 12. 13.

Lastly where the essentiall causes of a Church are to be found , viz. matter and form , there is a Church . But this may be in such assemblies as have no officers , ergo .

The former proposition is evident in it self , for the essentiall causes give being vnto the th 〈…〉 and it ha●h the being from them .

The 2. I gather from Mr B. own graunt , where treating of the causes and properties of the Church , he makes the † † pag. 112. true matter such as professe Christ Iesus their onely saviour : and the * * pag. 116. form to be the vniting of men to God , and one to another visibly . Now except he will say ( which God forbid ) that none may make profession of faith , and be vnited to Christ without officers , he cannot deny but there may be , ( and so be called ) a Church without them . For all vnited vnto Christ the head , are members of the body , which is the Ch: and so the whol assembly ioyntly considered is an whole and entyre body and Church . So that to deny an ordinary assembly or communion of Christians to be a Christian Church , is an vnchristian opinion . And here I entreat the indifferent reader to consider whether these mens wayes be equall , or no. When we deny their assemblies to be true visible Churches , though they consist for the most part of prophane , and vngodly persons , vnder the government of a Provinciall , or Diocesan Bishop , and the Ministery of a dumb or prophane Preist , as the most do , ( to which also the best is subiect within one moneth ) they complayn of vs , as most injurious detracters , and yet will not they acknowledge any assembly of faithful & holy people onely ( if vnfurnished for a time of officers ) to be a true Church , or capable of that denomination . But let not the harts of Gods servants be discouraged , he is no accepter of mens persons , he hath not tyed his power and presence to any order , or office in the world , but accepted of them that feare him , and work righteousnes , hating the assemblyes of the wicked , and all their sacrifices .

Vpon this point I haue insisted the longer , partly because it is the ground of the other truthes to be handled in their places , and partly in detestation of the vnsufferable pryde of this Prelacy , and Preisthood , which will have the very life of all Churches to hang on the breath of their nostrels , yea ( I may safely say ) on their lusts ; if they dy yea or forsake their charges in never so fleshly respects their Churches are dissolved , at least during the vacancy , and so the brethren dismembred from being of the visible body of Christ . But so far are the officers from being the formall cause of the Church ( as is intended ) as they are in truth no absolutely necessary appurtenance vnto it . The power indeed to enioy them is an essentiall property seated in the body which may braunch out it self ( as God gives fit means ) into officers accordingly , which if they prove unfruitful , it may also accordingly lop , or break off . And so farr is the Holy Ghost from giving countenance to this opinion , that the Officers make the Church , as when he speakes distinctly of the body , and officers , and considers them severally , he calls the body the Church , excluding the Elders , as appeares in these , amongst many o●her scriptures . Act. 14. 23. & 15. 4. and 20. 17. 28. 1 Tim. 3. 5. 15. And the reason is , because the Church is essentially in the saincts , as the matter , subject , formed by the cover●ant , unto which the officers are but adjuncts , not making for the being , but for the welbeing of the Church , and furtherance of her fayth , by their service .

The second poynt now comes to be manifested , which is that two or three faythful persons joyned unto the Lord in the fellowship of the Gospel , have immediate interest to Christ in all his ordinances .

Now least any should stumble at these words , two or three ioyned or gathered together ( as it seems Mr. B. would hereby take advantage to discountenance so small a number ) it must be considered , that two or three thus gathered together have the same right with two or three hundred . Neyther the smallnes of the number , nor meannes of the persons can prejudice their right . When the Lord did chose one nation from all other nations , he chose the smallest amongst them , † † Deut. 7. 7. Ps. 105. 12. fewest in number . And though now Christ have opened a way for all nations , yet is it a * * Math. 7. 14. narrow way and which few finde , especially in the first planting or replanting of Churches , of which Christ speaks most properly : in which regard also he likens the “ “ Mat. 13. 31. 32. the kingdome of heaven , or Church , to a grain of mustard-feed which is the least of all seeds , but yet hath vertue in it to bring forth a tree , in whose boughes the birds of heaven may build their nests . And against this exception of discouragement Christ himself hath provided a confortable remedie , in speaking expresly of two or three Mat. ☉ 18. 19. 20. to whom he hath given his power , and promised his presence .

Now , for the poynt it self : the truth whereof is sufficiently manifested by that which hath been ●ormerly layed down . If a company I. of faythfull people ( though without officers be the true Ch. and body of Christ , and Israel of God , then to that company apperteynes the covenants of promise , the oracles of God are committed untothem , and to them are given his word , statutes and iudgments : & so they Rom. 3. 2. & 9. 4. Ps. 147. 19. 20. Act. 2. 39 . may freely enjoy them amongst themselves in the order by Christ prescribed , without any forreyn Ministers , for Mediators .

II. They that have received Christ have received the power of Christ , and his whole power , for Christ and his power are not devided , nor one part of his power from another .

But every company or communion of faythful people have received Christ . Ioh. 1 , 12. Rom. 8. 32. Isa. 9. 6. and with him power and right to enjoy him , ( though all the world be against it ) in al the meanes , by which he doth communicate himself unto hi● Church .

III. When the Scriptures would give us to understand the near union betwixt Christ , and his Church , and the free and full title which he hath given her in himself , and all his most rich and pretious benefits , they do teach the same by resemblances of most streight and immediate conjunction , as of that between the * * Ioh. 15. 1. 5. vine and the branches , “ “ Eph. 1. 22 23. & 4. 15 16. & 5. 2. 3 the head and the body , † † Cant. 4. 8. 9. 10. Mat. 22. 2. 3. Eph. 5. 25. 29. 30. Rev 21. 2. the husband and the wise , and so as the branches do receive and draw the sap and juice immediately from the vine , and as the body receiveth sense and motion from the head immediately , and as the wife hath immediate right to , and interest in her husbands both person and goods , for her use , though she may and ought to use the service of her husbands and own servants ( as they can be had ) for convenient purposes , so hath every true visible Church of Christ direct , ●nd immediate interest in , and title to Christ himselfe , and the whole new Testament , & every ordinance of it , without any vnnaturall , monstrous , and adulterous interposition by any person whatsoever , betwixt the vyne and the branches , the head and the body , the husband & the wife : which are Christ , and his Church , though but two or three gathered together in his name , as hath formerly been manifested .

If all things be the Churches , even the ministers themselves , ye● though they be Paul , Cephas , and Apollos , and the Church Christs , & Christ Gods , then may the Church vse and enjoy all things immediately vnder Christ , and needs not goe to Rome to fetch her power , whether Mr B. would send her , but may have and enioy the Ministers and ministrations ( as her own ) of all the holy things which are given her . But the first the Apostles expresly affirmes 2 Cor. 3. 21. 22. 23. and so the conclusion necessarily followeth ; which will also be more manifest in the particulars as they come to be handled in theyr places , as occasion shal be ministred by Mr B. reasons layd down against popularty as he termes it , which in the next place come to be considered of .

The first and second whereof are , that it is contrary to the order which God established before the law , vnder the law , and since Christ , or Mr B. in the Apostles dayes ; during all which tymes , he affirmes , that the power of governing was in the cheif ; in the first born before the law , in the Levites vnder the law , and in the Apostles in their dayes . And for confirmation of these things , he brings sundry scriptures from the old & new Testament , & for the exposition of them , & clearing of his aslertion , intermingles sundry other observations .

For entrance into the answer of which his refutation , I desire Answ. it may be considred , that the visible Church being a polity Ecclesiasticall , and the perfection of all polities , doth comprehend in it whatsoever is excellent in all other bodyes politicall , as man being the perfection of all creatures , comprehends in his nature , what is excellent in them all : having being with the Elements , life with the plants , sense with the beasts , and with the angels reason . Now wise men having written of this subiect , have approved as good , and lawfull , three kyndes of polities , Monarchycall , where supreme authority is in the hands of one , Aristocraticall when it is in the hands of some few select persons , and Democraticall in the whole body , or multitude . And all these three formes have their places in the Church of Christ . In respect of him the head , it is a monarchy , in respect of the Eldership an Aristocracy , in respect of the body , a popular state .

The Lord Iesus is the King of his Church alone , † † Isa. 9. 6. Math. 28. 18. 1 Tim. 6. 15. vpon whose shoulders the government is , and vnto whome all power is given in heaven & earth , yet hath he not received this power for himself alone , but doth communicate the same with his Church as the husband with the wife . And as he is * * Psa. 45. 6. 7. Heb. 1. 9. announted by God with the oyl of gladnes above his fellowes , so doth he communicate this a●noynting with his body , 2 Cor. 1. 21. 1 Ioh. 2. 20. Gal. 2. 9. 10. which being powred by the Father vpon him the head runneth downe to the skirts of the clothing , perfuming with the sweetnes of the savour every member of the body and so makes every one of them severrally “ “ Rev. 1. 6 Kings and Preists and all ioyntly a † † Ex. 19. 9. 1 Pet. 2. 6. Kingly Preisthood , or communion of Kinges , Preists , and Prophets . And in this holy fellowship by vertue of this plenteous annoyntment , every one is made a King , Preist , and Prophet , not onely to himself but to every other , yea to the whole . A Prophet to teach , exhort , reprove , & comfort himself & the rest , a Preist to offer vp spirituall sacrifices of prayer , prayses , & thanksgiving for himselfe and the rest , a King to guide and govern in the wayes of godlynes himselfe , and the rest . But all these alwayes in that order , & according to those speciall determinations , which the Lord Iesus the King of Kings hath prescribed . And as there is not the meanest member of the body but hath received his drop or dram of this annoynting , so is not the same to be despised eyther by any other or by the whole : to which it is of vse dayly in some of the things before set downe , and may be in all , or at least in the most of them . So that not onely * * Cor. 1● . 21. the ey ( a speciall member ) cannot say to the hand ( a speciall member ) I have no need of thee : but not the head ( the principall member of all ) vnto the feet , the meanest members I have no need of you .

And yet as if a multitude of Kinges should assemble together to advise & consult of their common affaires some one , or few must needs be appointed over the assembly both for order & speciall assistance of the whole , which should go before the rest in propounding , discussing , and determining of all matters , so in this royall assembly , the Church of Christ , though al be kings , yet some both most faythful and most able , are to be set over the rest , & that in office , ( not kingly but ministeriall ) because the assembly is constant , wherein they are both deeply charged , & effectually encouraged to Minister according to the Testament of Christ , and that not † onely for comlynes and order as Mr B : slaundereth vs to hould , pag. 90. but for the proffit , aedification , yea and salvation of the Church . 2 Cor. 1 24. Eph: 4. 11. 12. 13. 1 Tim. 4. 16 by the ministration of such holy things as to the Church appertayne by the free , absolute , and immediate donation of Christ .

This praemised , I come to Mr B. reasons and refutation .

And first I do freely acknowledge the thing , which he would charge vs to deny , and seeme to prove by many scriptures : and that is that the government of the Church before the law , vnder the law , & in the Apostles tymes , was ( and so still is ) not in the multitude but in the cheife . In the first born before the law , in the Levites vnder the law , in the Apostles in their tymes , and so in the ordinary officers of the Church ever since , and that the Lord Iesus hath given to his Church a Presbytery , or Colledge of * * Act. 14 3. and 20. 7. 20. Elders or Bishops for the feeding of the s●me , that is , for the ●eaching , and governing of the whole flock according to his will : and these the multitude ioyntly and severally is bound to “ “ 1 Th. 5. 2. Heb. 13 7. obey all and every one of them , submiting themselves vnto their government in the Lord . And this it never came into our harts to deny . Cease then Mr B. to suggest against vs unto such as are ignorant of our faith , & walking , that we deny the Officers to be the governours of the Church or the people to be governed by them . But this I desire the reader here to take knowledge of , and ever hereafter to beare in minde , that it is one thing for the officers to govern the Church ( which we graunt ) and another thing for them to be the Church , which Mr B. in expounding Math: 18. would needs make them ; where he would have the Ezech: ●3 . 2. 3. officers alone to admonish , and censure . As if because the † watchman is set vp to blow the trumpet and to warne the people , when the sword commeth , that therefore he alone is the City , or Land , and bound alone to make resistance . The officers of the Church are to govern every action , of the Church , and exercise of the communion : are they therefore alone to do al things ? They ( if there be any of them in the Church ) are to govern in every election and choyce of ensuing Officers , are they therefore , alone to chuse ▪ excluding the Church ? They are to govern in preaching , prophesying , and hearing the word , and receiving the sacraments , singing of Psalmes , distributing vnto the necessities of the sayncts , are they therefore alone to prophesie , to sing Psalmes , to contribute to the poor & the rest , with as little reason can it be affirmed , that they alone are to have communion in the censures , to admonish , & judge , because they are to govern in the carying & administring of those matters .

These things thus cleared , it wil be very convenient for the purpose in hand , and wil give much furtherance to the truth , in a few words to consider of the nature of Ecclesiastical government , and governours , which whilst politik men through either ignorance , or contempt of the gospels simplicitie , do neglect , they labour to transform the Church into a wordly kingdome , and to set over it a kinde of kingly and lordly government : and such scriptures as give libertie and power unto kings , and other civile officers over their subjects , and people , for the making and altering of lawes , and for the passing , and ordering of judgements , these they pervert and misapply to Church governours and government : then which nothing is more monstrous . Math. 20. 25. 26. 27. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 3.

I. For first civil officers are & are called in the word of God † † Num. 7. 2 De● . 1. 15. 16. Esa. 9. 2 Mat. 20. 25. Rom. 13 1. 3. 1 Tim. 2. Tit. 3. 2. Ps. ●2 . 1. 6. Princes , Heads , Captaines , Iudges , Magistrates , Nobles , Lords , Kinges , them in authority , principalities , powers , yea in their respect , Gods : and according to their names so are their offices : but on the contrarie , Ecclesiasticall officers are not capable of these , or the like titles which can neyther be given without flatterie unto them , nor received by them without arrogancy : neyther is their office an office of Lordship , Sovereigntie , or Authoritie , but of * * 1 Tim. 3. 1. Act. 1. 17. Labour and Service , and so they the “ “ 1 Tim. 5. 17. 18. Mat 20. 26. 27. 2 Cor. 4. 5 . Labourers and Servants of the Church , as of God .

2. Magistrates may publish & execute their owne lawes in their own names , Ezra . 1. 1. 2. &c. Est. 8. 8. Math. 20. 25. But Ministers are onely interpreters of the lawes of God , and must look for no further respect , at the hands of any to the things they speak , then as they manifest the same to be the commaundements of the Lord . 1 Cor. 14. 37.

3. Civill administrations , and their formes of goverment may be , and oft tymes are altered , for the avoyding of inconveniences , according to the circumstances of tyme , place , and persons , Ex. 1● . 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. &c. But the Church is a kingdome which cannot be shaken , Heb. 12. 28. wherein may be no innovation in office , or forme of administration from that which Christ hath left ▪ for any inconveniency whatsoever .

4 Civill Magistrates have authority by their offices to judge offenders , vpon whom they may also exequute bodily vengeance , vsing their people as their servants , and ministers for the same purpose ; but in the Ch: the officers are the ministers of the people , whose service the people is to vse for the administring , and executing of their judgements , that is for the pronouncing of the judgments of the Church ( & of God first ) against the obstinate , which is the vtmost execution the Church can perform . And what difference can be greater ? In the common wealth the people fewer or more ( yea somtimes whol armies ) the ministers of the officers : in the Church , the officers the ministers of the people .

5. In civill government obedience must be performed for the authority and will of the commaunder , who is Lord over the bodyes and goods of his subjects . Mat. 20. 25. 26. 1 Pet. 5. 3. yea though his commaundements being with them bodily domage , yea be they never so vnjust , & vnholy yet must obedience be given in meek and pacient sufferance , though not in active performance . ● Pet. 2. 13. 14. & 3. 14. 15. 16. but in Church matters not so . The officers may neyther exact obedience , nor the people perform it further then the goodnes , profit , and aedification of and by the thing commaunded doth enforce , 1 Cor. 14. 26. Gal. 1. ● . Col. 2. 16. 1● .

And the reason is because civil Magistrates have authority annexed to their office , and order , and though both they , and their commaundements be most vnjust yet do they still reteyn their authority , which their subjects may not shake of : but ministers and Church governers have no such authority tyed to their office , but merely to the word of God .

And as the peoples obedience stands not in making the Elders their Lords , Soveraignes & , Iudges , but in listening to their godly counsels , in following theyr wise directions , in receiving their holy instructions , exhortations , consolations , and admonitions , and in vsing their faithful service and ministery , so neyther stands the Elders goverment in erecting any tribunall seat , or throne of judgement over the people , but in exhorting , instructing , comforting & improving them by the word of God , 1 Tim. 3. 16. & in affoarding the Lord and them their best service .

But here it wil be demaunded of me , if the Elders be not set over the Church for her guidance , and government ; Yes certaynly , as the physition is set over the body , for his skill , and faithfulnes to minister vnto it , to whom the pacient ( yea though his Lord , or Maister ) is to submit : the lawyer over his cause , to attend vnto it ; the steward over his family , even his wife and children , to make provision for them : yea the wachmen over the whole city for the safe keeping thereof . Such , and none other is the Elders , or Bishops government .

Now to conclude this point . All the scriptures which Mr B. brings ( as the reader may see ) serves to prove that the governers of the Church , must be in , and of the Church they govern : but the governers of the Church of Worxsop , are not of it , neyther would Mr B. I dare say , be well pleased they should . But where it is further affirmed , that during all the Apostles dayes , the body of the congregation attempted nothing of themselves , but that alwayes Church matters were begun , governed , and composed by the Apostle● , as it made nothing against our matter , though it were even so , as is sayd , since w● hold that where there are officers in the Churches , & those faithfull in all things , as th' Apostles were , there things are not to be attempted without them , so is it not true which is affirmed , neyther do the scriptures alledged prove any such thing .

The three first places , Act. 1. 15. 23. 24. 25. and 6. 3. 6. and 14. 19. 20. 23. do onely prove that the Apostles being general men , & officers of all Churches , did when they were present with the Churches govern and assist them faythfully in all things , which we also affirm to be the duty of al Elders in their particular charges , whom the people are accordingly to obey . More particularly . The two former places speak of the Church at Ierusalem , where some of the Apostles were ever present : what marveil then if the congregation attempted nothing without them ? But touching the last scripture which speakes of the Churches of and amongst the Gentiles , and of the ordination of Elders there , Act. 14. 23. the case is otherwise . Of these Churches some were converted to the Lord by the Apostles , and other by private brethren scattered thither , & there publishing the Gospel . Act. 8. 12. & 10. 36-44 . 47. 48. & 11. 19. 20. 21. 23. & 13. 2. 12. 48. & 14. 1. 2. & that some certaine yeares before any ordination of Elders amongst them .

And can it be conceived with any reason , that all this long space , during the Apostles absence , these Churches never assembled together for their edification and comfort , in prayer , prophesying ▪ and other ordinances ? were there no other converted al the while which desyred to be admitted into their fellowship ? or had they no use of excommunication for the preserving pure of their communion for sundry yeares ? But to let passe these more generall things and to come to the speciall busines mentioned : Act. 14 , 23. The same rules which were after left in writing to Timothy and Titus for the choyce of Bishops , or Elders were then in use amongst the Churches : & amongst other qualifications , it was required of them that they should be † † 1 Tim. 3 , 1 , 2 , 4 , 5. apt to teach , * * Tit. 1 , 5. ● . 9. able to convince , as also to manage the publique affaires of the Churches , which were to depend on them , whither in cases of controversie , or otherwise , and such they both then were , and now are by good tryal and experience to be known to be : and those also no young plants for such fruits . And as it did ▪ 1 Tim. 3. ● . most specially concern the brethren to know certainly , & by good experience that those officers were so qualified , whom they were to set over them , and unto whom they were to commit their soules to be fed unto life eternal , so could they onely take sufficient tryall of them , their gifts , and faythfulnes for the publique ministery by due experience . The Apostles came , but occasionally to visit the Churches , and to comfort them , making ( in many very small or no continuance ) and fynding fit men for officers in the Churches where they came , and the same known , testified and commended to be such by the peoples election , they ordeyned Bishops or Elders over them , and so departed . Act. 14. 21. 22. 23.

And what reason can be given , why the Apostles did not at the first planting of the Churches , but so long a space after , ordeyn officers , ( as also that Paul did not perform that busines himself in Creta , but left Titus the Evangelist for that purpose , Tit. 1. 5. ) save onely that men of gifts might be trayned vp in prayer , prophecying , and carrying of such other Church affaires as fell out , and so due tryall made of theyr gifts , & good knowledg taken of their faythfulnes in and by the Churches whereof they were , and over which they were to be set , being found fit for that service ? Now the fourth scripture which is , 1 Cor. 5. doth directly oppose that for which it is brought . It was the Churches fault not to have purged out that sower leven , the incestuous person before they eyther heard from Paul , or he of that evill amongst them : and for theyr negligence herein the Apostle reproveth them , as all men see that are not willingly blynd . And for Paul he in generall as a penman of the Holy Ghost wrote scriptures for the direction of the Corinthians and all other Churches to the worldes end , and in speciall , as a chief Officer of that Church by † † v. ● . determining for himself discharged his owne duety : but did neyther begin , govern , nor compose the action : being at Philippi ▪ or rather at Ephesus for the present , from whence he writ the Epistle to the Church , vnto which he commended the busines in hand , both for the beginning , and ending of it .

But what of all these , and many other the like scriptures to be alledged ? because the Churches are in all things to be guided by theyr officers ministring faythfully , and according to the word of God , and theyr duety , that therefore if eyther there be no officers , or if they be absent , or fayl in their duety , the Church may do nothing eyther for information , or reformation ?

The scriptures record , that after Stevens death * * Act. ● . 1. 4. all the Church a● Ierusalem was dispersed save the Apostles , and that they which were dispersed went to and fro , preaching the word , the effect of whose preaching amongst the Gentiles was † † Act. 11 20. 21. the fayth and conversion of a great number vnto the Lord .

Here were not onely Church matters but even Churches begun , preaching to and fro , turning and ioyning of multitudes to the Lord , & that where neyther Apostles no● other officers were present , for this is too grosse to affirm that during al the Apostles dayes nothing was begun but by them . And what if the Lord should now rayse vp a company of faythfull men and women in Barbary , or America , by the reading of the scriptures , or by the wrytings , conferences , or sufferings of some godly men , must they not separate themselves from the filthines of the heathen to the Lord ? nor turn from Idols to the true God ? nor ioyne themselves vnto him in the fellowship of the gospell ? nor have any communion together for theyr mutuall aedification , and comfort , till some vagrant Preist from Rome or England be sent vnto them to begin theyr Church matters with his service book ? And yet this would not serve the turne neyther , for he would be vnto them a barbarian , and they barbarians vnto him , 1 Cor. 14. 11. Some yeares must be spent or ech could vnderstand others language . Nay if this were a true ground , that Church matters might not be begun without officers , it were impossible that such a people should ever eyther enioy officers , or become a Church , yea I may safely ad , that ever there should be in the world after the vniversal visible apostacy of Antichrist , any true eyther Church , or officers ; and so we must hold with the Arians , that except ther should come new Apostles to gather the Churches , and so a new Christ to call those Apostles , that there can be to the worlds end neyther true Churches nor true officers . The reason is , Heb. 5. 4. because * no man takes this honour vnto himself , but he that is called of God a● Aaron : Now God calls no man ordinarily but by the Ch: , ( for I suppose you will not deny but that the choyce of officers is a Ch: matter & not a matter of the world . ) And the Church must chuse none but such as of whose knowledge , zeale , and vtterance they have taken tryall by the exercise of his guif●s , as you truely affirme els where in “ “ Pag. 1●8 . this book , and you will not say but this exercise of his guift● after this manner and for this end is a Church matter . Whence it followeth , that both Church matters , yea and Churches also may and in cases must be begun without officers . Yea even where officers are , if they fayl in theyr duetyes , the people may enterprise matters needfull , howsoever you will have the minister the onely primum movens , and will ty all to his fingers . And to let passe the godly Kings of Iudah which were no Church officers ( about whom the question is ) which sundry tymes set the Preists a work , & other with them in Church matters , as 2. Chro. 17. 7. 8. 9. and 29. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. &c. and other instances in the old Testament , which in the handling of the particulars will fall into consideration , † † Act. 11. 22. Peter himselfe was called by such as were no Apostles or other officers , to render a reason of his going into men vncircumcised , which he also did to Gods glory , and the Churches satisfaction , v. 18. Now how soever they which so contended with him erred in the matter , and it is like , dealt too contumeliously with him in the manner , yet had it been simply vnlawfull for them to have propounded , and begun a matter of that kynde , Peter would have reproved and broken off theyr disorderly course , and not have pertaken with them in their sinne by vndertaking the answer of the matter , which in the generall he doth approve , by his orderly , and satisfactory answer .

Furthermore , where the Lord Iesus , Math. 18. 19. directs a brother in case , & order , to tell the Church of his brothers offence , what can be more playne then that he enioynes a private brother to begin a Church matter ? Yea though there be Elders in the Church , yea though the Elders alone , yea the chief of them onely ( as Mr Bernard would have it ) be the Church , yet must the matter be brought to , and begun in the Church by him that is offended , and his witnesses . To presse this yet a little further : if any puliquely scandalous , or notorious sin be committed in the Church by a brother , and the Elders neglect all means of redressing it , ye● put the case the Elders themselves be in the transgression , and by name , that they preach haeresy , or both preach and practise notorious Idolatry , and that the body of the Church also be corrupted by them , and joyn hands with them in their mischief , what now must a private brother doe in this case , whose heart the Lord establisheth in the truth , and whom he plucks as a brand out of the fyre ? must he goe on , and ioyn with that Idolatrous assembly in theyr wickednes ? God forbid . And leave them he may not till he have dealt with them about this Church matter , and convinced them of this Church sinn : for if Christ would not have a brother cast of his brother til he have dealt with him , nor the whole Church to cast of a private member , till he refuse to hear it , Math. 18. much lesse will he have one brother to forsake all the brethren , and officers also , or a private member to disclaym the whole Church till he have by the best meanes he can affoard in himself , or procure otherwise , and after the best manner , convinced , admonished and exhorted both the Officers and people , and so found them obstinate and irreclamable .

To proceed . The Apostle Paul writes to the Church at Rome , to * * Rom. 16. 17. observe such as caused divisions , and scandalls , contrary to the doctrine they had learned , and to avoid them : and to the Church at Corinth , to † † 1 Cor. 5. 1. 4. 5. deliver to Sathan , or excommunicate the incestuous person , & agayn that vpon his repentance , they “ “ 2 Cor. 2. 7. ● . would forgive him , and confirme their love towards him , and agayn to the same Church , that they would have ready their * * 1 Cor. 16. 1 2. 2 Cor. 8. 7 collection for the saints at Hierusalem and gather it on the Lords day , desiring further that they might abound in that grace , as in faith , love , and the like : to the Colossians that they should † † Col. 4 , 17. say to Archippus look to thy ministery which thou hast received of the Lord , that thou fulfill it : so writes Iohn to the Church at Pergamus that they Rev. 2. should not suffer the Bala●mites and Nicholaitans to teach and to deceive , as they did : † † v. 20. and to the Church of Thyatira likewise not to suffer the 14. 15. woman Iezabell calling her self a Prophetesse to deceive Gods servants .

Now it seems by Mr BERNARDS doctrine that if the officers withdraw in these things , and will not endeavour the reformation of them ( or if they dy or fall away ) that the silly multitude must beare all evill , and forbeare all good ; they must not mark and avoyd haereitcall and schismaticall whether teachers or others , they must not put out the old leven , that they may become a new lump : nor confirme theyr love to any penitent person , or forgive him , though his repentance be never so ful or publique : nor make any collection in the Church for theyr brethren the saynts , nor have any part in that grace : nor put their Minister in mynd of his office that he fulfill it : nor medle with false Prophets for theyr conviction or restrayn● , but may suffer them to deceive without gaynsaying ; these are all Church matters , Apostles onely , and Apostolick men must medle in them , both to begin and end them . And thus the Ch: without the officers help ( though it cannot possibly be had ) as a deaf , a dumb , a blynd , a lame , yea a liveles & senseles body : it must both have the eyes put out , and the eares stopt , and neyther see nor hear , it must be tongue-tyed from speaking , & fast bound hand and foot from doing any thing for the generall , and joynt good , yea it must not be saved without the officers , for other ordinary way of salvation know I none by the revealed will of God in his word , but in the vse of the ordinances , which Christ hath given vnto his Church .

¶ It is the stewards duety to make provision for the family , but what if he neglects this duety in the maysters absence ? must the whole family starve , yea and the wife also ? or is not some other of the family best able , to be imployed for the present necessity ? It is the Pilottes office to guide the ship , but what if he ignorantly , or negligently , or desperately will run the same vpon the rocks , or sands , must the rest of the mariners forbeare to intermedle , and so perish ? It is the Captaines office to lead the army , but what if he or they perfidiously will betray the same into the hands of the enemy , may not the body of the army make the best head they can to defend themselves , and to offend their enemies , vsing the best meanes they have for their present direction ? Yea even in the most peaceable & best governed common-wealthes , a private man may in a case of necessity become a Magistrate for a mayne work , and that which ordinarily is the Magistrates peculiar . The Lord hath given † † Rom. 13. 3. 4. the sword into his hand for the good of him that doth well , & to take vengeance on him that doth evill , and to him it apper teynes to defend the innocent . But if this innocent person be assaulted by a theif , murtherer or other enemy , when the Magistrate is absent , that should defend him , God puts the sword into his hand , and he may as lawfully vse it now , as wear it before , & rather kill then be killed .

So may the Church as the wife of Christ , if the steward the minister neglect the provision , vse the help , and service of an other the fittest in the family to provide food ; the multitude , as the mariners , if the minister the Pylot be desperate , set an other the most skilfull at the stern : the body of the army the Church , if the officers as the Captaynes be perfidious , vse the help and guidance of some other the most expert : so may , as a private citizen a magistrate , a private member become a minister , for an action of necessity to be performed , by the consent of the rest . These first things even nature , and the light of it teacheth the natural man , the latter , grace , & the spirit of grace the spirituall man . Of these things the more largely I haue spoken in the generall , I may be the breifer in the particulars . Onely for conclusion I must demaund of Mr B. this question : if Church matters be to be performed onely by ministers , why his Sexton being no minister reads divine service in his absence , and that by authority from the Ordinary . If this be not a Church matter , and that materiall , there is small Church matter in the most Churches in the land .

Now the last thing I have to observe touching this first reason is , that so far as the authour speaks the truth in it , so far he speaks most playnly against himself . In that he graunts ( as he doth pag. 90. 91. ) the people under the law aright from the Lord , to approve of the appointment of the Levites , and that the body of the congregation were made acquainted with that which concerned them , yea and had liberty to chuse their officers , and to present them to the Apostles , therein he overthrowes both his own , and all other the ministeries in England , as by the lawes both civil and ecclesiasticall they are constituted . For the law ( with you Mr B. ) allowes not onely Ministers ordeyned at large , without any certeyn congregations , but entitles them also to their speciall cures , without so much as the peoples knowledge : many parishes never seing the faces of their ministers till they come to ring their belles in signe of victory : much lesse doth the law provide , they should be approved , least of all that they should be chosen , and presented by them .

As the truth you speak in this place makes against you , so had you spoken more fully , you had brought more cleare testimony against yourself , you do therefore take vp yourself in time , and mingle some vntruthes among ▪ like darknes with light , least the light should shine too clearely in the eyes of the reader .

Where you then affirm that the people did onely approve of the Levites at the Lords appointment when they took their charge , Numb. 3. 6 ▪ 12. Lev. 8. 2. 36. & that the body of the congregation was onely made acquainted with the choice of Mathyas , Act. 1. 15. you speak vnfaithfully : but where you adde , that onely the liberty was graunted them by the Apostles then to chuse Officers &c. it is both false and fond . False as the former , for the Levites were not onely approved by the people , but given by them : they were the the peoples gift , and therefore theirs ( for they gave nothing but their owne ) and by them given to minister vnto the Lord in stead of the first borne , Exod. 13. 2. 12. 13. and 22. 29. Num. 3. 12. The Levites are expresly called the peoples † shake offring , and so were not onely approved , but given by Num. 8. 9. 10. 11. them as their offering , even the offering of the whol congregation , and that by solemn ordination & imposition of hands by the people Men may approve the thinges done by others , but the people were principall doers themselves : the offring was theirs , and by them as their gift presented , and so by Aaron offred vnto the Lord in their name .

And as shameles an vntruth is it which you avouch touching the calling of Mathyas , Act. 1. that the body of the congregation was onely made acquainted with that which concerned them all . For howsoever the ministration were extraordinary , being an Apostleship , to which he was called , and therefore the Lord reserved to himself the prerogative royall of immediate designation of the very person , Gal. 1. 1. yet would he haue the libertie of the people so inviolably preserved , as that by direction , they were to present two , and after to acknowledge by common consent that particular person which by the Lord was immediately singled out , and designed to that work . vers. 23. 26.

Lastly the liberty graunted to the people for the chusing both of Deacons , and Elders , Act. 6. & 14. was not by any courtesie of the Apostles , as by the Popes indulgence for that time , as Mr B. would cunningly beare the simple reader in hand , but it was an ordinance eternall , and perpetual , never reversed but by Antichrist , even a part of that connsell of God wherewith the Apostles acquainted the Churches , and one of these commaundements which they were to teach all Churches to observe , which they also did .

And so I come to the third reason against this imputed popularity , Mr B. taken from the commission of Christ to his Apostles , and their successourt .

This is something generally set down , but the thing ( I perceive Answ. by his proofs ) which Mr B : intends is , that the vse of the keyes & power of binding and loosing was committed by Christ to his Apostles , and to those which succeeded them .

And first here , I do graunt with Mr Bernard , that look to whom the power of binding and loosing was primarily , and immediately committed , in their successours it recideth for ever : so that the onely point in quaestion is into whose hands the Lord Iesus hath properly & immediately given the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , the power of loosing , and binding sinnes .

For the better vnderstanding then of this point it must be considered , that the kingdome of heaven is compared to a great house into which some are admitted , and others denyed enterance : the doore into this howse is Christ : the key that opens and shutts this doore , is the gospel : the opening of it ( which is the loosing of sinnes , ) is the publishing , opening , manifesting and making knowen of the gratious promises of the forgivenes of sinnes and life eternall to such as beleive , and repent . The shutting of this doore ( which is also the binding of sinnes ) is the declaration and denunciation of the wrath of God , against sinne , and of coudemnation vpon persons impenitent , and vnbeleevers : and both these according to the pleasure of the mayster of the house , though the latter of them be not of the nature of the gospell , which is in it self * * 2 Cor. 3. 6 the ministery of life , and of the spirit which giveth life , but accidentall vnto it , by mens own fault , which through their vnbeleeving , & impenitent hearts turne this key as it were , the wrong way vpon themselves .

Now by the evidence of the former generall truth approved ( I doubt not ) to the conscience of every indifferent man ( which is , that a company of faithfull people vnited together in the fellowship of the gospel , though without officers , is a Church , This specialty in hand wil be cleared . And wheresoever the promise of forgivenes of sinnes , and life eternall is to be found , there hangeth the golden key of heaven gates , there sinnes are loosed in heaven : for what els is it to loose sinnes , but to publish , proclayme , or declare in the word of God & righteousnes of Christ , the forgivenes of sinnes to them that repent . But of these things hereafter .

I will in the first place consider of Mr Bernards proofs , and of his collections from them .

The places alleadged are , Math. 2● . 19. & 16. 19. Ioh. 20. 21. 22. 23. Mark . 13. 34. which scriptures are not all of one nature , nor serving to the same end . Yet this in generall I do answer to all of them , that we deny not but that the publique Ministers are by commission from Christ to publish the gospel , administer the sacraments , bind and loose sinnes , watch and ward the howse of God , and the like , which for vs to deny were wickednes , and for you to proove is lost labour . But the pointes in controversie betwixt vs are first , whether these things and all of them , and with them all other Church affairs not here mentioned , be so appropriated to the Officers , as that none other may meddle with them : and 2. whether this power be committed to them immediately from , and by Christ , or mediately from Christ by the Church : which consideration whilest you neglect , you erre your self , deceive such as follow you , and injury them you oppose . But to the particulars .

The first & third scriptures , Math. 28. 19. & Ioh. 20. 21. 22 ▪ 23. are meant onely of the Apostles ; and in them they receive the commission Apostolik , which ( to speak properly ) is incommunicable to any other Officer in the Church . For as none are to succeed them in the Office of Apostles , so neyther is the Commission ( peculiar to the Apostles ) ●●nveyed , or intended to any others , which also further appeares thus .

Their charge was to * * Math. 2● 19. teach and baptise all nations , & to “ “ Mark . 16. 15. goe into all the world , and to preach the gospel to every creature● but ordinary Ministers have no such commission , but are tied to their particular flocks , Act. 14. 2● . & 20. 28.

2. Their Commission was extraordinary , and miraculous , whether we respect the inward qualifications of the parties by the immediate inspiration of the holy Ghost , wherewith they were at the first springled as it were , Iohn . 20. 22. and afterward replenished , Act. 2. 4. or whether we respect the miraculous confirmation of the doctrine both by them tha● taught it , and by them that b●leeved it . Mark . 16. 17. 18. 20.

3. The very outward o●der and manner of conveying it was extraordinary , and by Christs immediate voice , and as it were with his owne hands : where ordinary Ministers have their commissions from Christ indeed , but by men , Gal. 1. 1. And the consideration of this very difference doth minister sufficient matter of answer , that though Christ did transferre unto the Apostles their office , and power to exercise it immediately , yet for ordinary ministers , the case is clean otherwise .

Lastly the disciples of Christ did not then first receive power to teach when they were possessed of their Apostleship , but long before they were admitted into office , as did others also besides them without office as well as they , Math. 10. 5. 6. 7. Luk. 10. 1. 2. 3. 9. 10. which scriptures alone , as they are sufficient to justify against Mr B. that the keyes of the kingdome were given into the hands of men without office , yea before any office or officer was in the Church , so do they manifest the notable falshood of that his pe●emptory affirmation , pag. 93. that it is as playn as the shining of the sun of the firmament of heaven , to such as are not blind , or wilfully shut not their eyes from seing , that Christ never sayd to the body of the congregation , that is , to any out of office , ( for that is the point ) goe preach .

The Apostles by Mr B. own graunt in this place , & by these scriptures , & at this time , and not before , had their commission of Apostl●ship graunted them from Christ , ( and I hope he will not say they entred their office without a commission ) ●nd yet both power and charge was given them long before to preach the kingdome of God , as the forequoted scriptures manifest .

The next place is Mat. 16. 19. where expresse mention is made of the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , and of the power of binding , and loosing given to Peter : by which scripture rightly interpreted I desire the difference betwixt Mr Bernard and me may be determined .

That by the keyes is meant the gospel of Christ , opening a way by him , and his merits , as the doore into the kingdome , I have formerly declared , and we must take heed of that deep delusion of Antichrist , in imagining that this power of binding or loosing sinnes , of opening , or shutting heaven gates , is tyed to any office , or order in the Church ; it depends only vpon † † Mark . 2. 7. Rev. 3. 7. Christ , who alone properly forg●veth sinnes , & hath the key of David which opens , and no man shuts , and shuttes , and no man opens : and this key externally is the gospell , which with himself he gives to his Church , Isa. 9. 6. Rom. 3. 2. & 9. 4. and not to the officers onely for them , as Mr Bern. in his ‘* ‘* pag. 178. last book come to mine hand in the publishing of this mine answer , doth insinuate , because the materiall book was given into the hands of the Preists , and Elders to be kept . Deut. 31. 9. whence I do by the way gather thus much , that since the keyes of the kingdome of heaven is the gospel , and that the gospel is given to the whole Church , and to every member of it , whether there be Ministers or no , it therefore followeth , that the keyes are given to all and every member alike , as the gospel is , though not to be vsed alike by all , and every one , which were grosse confusion , but according to the order prescribed by Christ .

Now for the place in hand , ( which is Math. 16. 18. 19. ) it is graunted by all sides that Christ gave vnto Peter the keyes of the kingdome , that is , the power to remit and reteyne sinnes declaratively ( as they speak ) as also that in what respect this power was given to PETER , in the same respect it was , and is given to such as succeed Peter : but the quaestion is , in what respect or consideration this power spoken of was delegated vnto him . The Papist affirmes it was given to Peter as the Prince of the APOSTLES , and so to the BISHOPS of ROME as PETERS successours , and thus they stablish the POPES primacy : the PRELATES say nay , but vnto PETER an APOSTLE that is , a cheif Officer of the CHVRCH , and so to vs as cheif Officers succeeding him , which is also Mr B : judgement , pag. 94. Others affirm it to belong to Peter here as a Minister of the word , and sacraments , and the like , and so consequently to belong to all other Ministers of the gospel equally , which succeed Peter in those and the like administrations . But we for our partes do beleeve & professe that this promise is not made to Peter in any of these forenamed respects , nor to any office , order , estate , dignity , or degree in the Church , or world , but to the confession of faith , which Peter made by way of answer to Christs question , who demaunding of the disciples , v. 15. whom ( amongst the variety of opinions that went of him , ver. 14. ) they thought him to be , was answered by Peter in the name of the rest , Thou art Christ the sonne of the l●ving God , ver. 16. To this Christ replyes , ver. 17. blessed ar● thou Symon , the sonne of Ionas , &c. and ver. 18. thou art Peter , and upon this rock I will build my Church , and the gates of hell shall not overcome it . and v. 19. I will give unto thee the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , & whatsoever thou shalt bind vpon earth shal be bound in heaven , and whasoever thou shalt loose on earth , shal be loosed in heaven .

So that the building of the Church is vpon the rock of Peters confession , that is , Christ , whom he confessed : this faith is the foundation of the Church : against this faith the gates of hell shall not prevayl : this faith hath the keyes of the kingdome of heaven : what this faith shall loose , or bind on earth , is bound , & loosed in heaven . And thus the Protestant divines ( when they deal against the Popes supremacy ) do generally expound this scripture , though Mr B. directly make the Pope and his shavelings Peters successours in this place , as hereafter wil appeare . Now vpon the former ground it followeth , that whatsoever person hath received the same pretious faith with Peter ( as all the faithfull have , ● Pet. 1. 1. ) that person hath a part in this gift of Christ : whosoever doth confesse publish , manifest , or make knowen Iesus to be that Christ the sonne of the living God , and Saviour of the world , that person opens heaven gate , looseth sin , & partakes with Peter in the vse of the keys .

And herevpon also it followeth necessarily , that one faithful man , yea or woman eyther , may as truely , and effectually loose , and bind , both in heaven , and earth , as all the Ministers in the world .

But here I know the Lordly clergy , like the bulles of Bashan , will roar lowd vpon me , as speaking things intollerably derogatory to the dignitie of Preisthood , and it may be some others also , eyther through ignorance , or superstition , will take offence at this speach , as confounding all things : but there is no such cause of exception . For howsoever the keyes be one and the same in nature , and efficacy , in what faithful mans or mens handes soever , as not depending eyther vpon the number , or excellency of any persons , but vpon Christ alone , yet is it ever to be remembred , that the order , and manner of vsing them is very different .

These keyes in doctrine may be turned as well vpon them which are without the Church , as vpon them which are within , and their sinnes eyther loosed , or bound . Math. 28. 19. but in discipline ( as we speak ) not so , but onely vpon them which are within . 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13. Againe the Apostles by their office had these keyes to vse in all Churches , yea in all nations vpon earth : ordinary Elders for their particular flockes . Act. 14. 23. & 20. 28.

Lastly there is an vse of these keyes publiquely to be had , and an vse privately : an use of them by one person severally , and an use of them by the whole Church ioyntly , and together : an vse of them ministeriall , or in office , and an vse of them out of office : but the power of the gospel ( which is the keyes ) is still one , and the same , notwithanding the divers manner of vsing it .

And this distinction well observed will stop the hole , by which Mr Bernard in his reply , sundry times scapes out ( where otherwise he should be vnavoydably taken in Mr Smythes arguments ) by taking vantage at , and perverting of a phrase vsed by Mr Sm: which is the ministeriall power of Christ . This ministeriall power Mr S. makes that externall communicated , & delegated power of Christ with and to the Church , serving onely for manifestation and declaration of the remission , or retention of sinnes , opposing ministeriall power in the creature , to that power essentiall , & incommunicable which is inhaerentin Christ and God the creator : but Mr B. on the other side , eyther ignorantly , or deceiptfully , misinterprets the terme Ministeriall , as meant onely of the power in office , opposed to that which is out of office , and so creeps out at this cranny . But with what reason can it be eyther conceived , or suggested that Mr Smyth should affirme , that the body of the Church , or a private brother out of office , should have this power spoken of in office ? Thus much to prove that all the pretious promises , Math. 16. were made to Peter in respect of his confession of faith , and so consequently to all others , which succeed him in the same confession , and amongest the rest , the vse of the keyes , though not in the same order , or office with Peter , which was peculiar vnto him with some few others . It followeth .

First if the keyes of the kingdome of heaven be appropriated vnto the officers , then can there be no forgivenes of sinnes , nor salvation without officers : for there is no enterance into heaven but by the dore , there is no clyming over any other way , without the key the doore cannot be opened : so then belike if eyther there be no officers in the Church ( as it may easily come to passe in some extreame plague , or persecution , ( howsoever in England a man may haue a Preist for the whisteling ) and must needs be in the Churches of Christ in our dayes eyther in their first planting , or first calling out of Babylon : for Antichrists masse-preisthood is not essentially Christs true M●nistery ) or if the officers † † Mat. 23. 13. take away the key of knowledge ( as the Scribes & Pharisees did ) & will neither enter in themselves , nor suffer them that would , then must the miserable multitude be content to be shut out , and perish eternally , for ought is knowen to the contrary . They haue no remedy in this case , no redresse may be had of this evill , no meanes vsed to avoid it . Though the Pope cary with him thowsands to hell , no man may say vnto him Sir , why do you s● ? To admonish the Officers of their sinne , were against common sense that the father should be subiect to his children , the work dominere over the workman , the seeds-man be ordered by the corn , and to excommunicate them and call new , were intolerable vsurpation of the keyes , this power is given to the chief officers onely , pag. 94. 95. and to separate from them is as intollerable . pag. 88. Miserable were the Lords people if these things were so : but the truth is they are miserable guides that so teach .

2 They which may forgive sins and sinners , save soules , gayne , and turne men vnto the Lord , to them are the keyes of the kingdome given , by which they open the dore vnto such , as they thus forgive , gayne , and save : but all these things such as ar● no ministers , may do , as these scriptures ( which I entreat the godly reader to consider ) do most clearly manifest , Math. 18. 15. 2 Cor. 2. 5. 7. 8. 9. 10. Act. 8. 1. 4. with 11. 19. 20. 21. Iam. 5. 19. 20. 1 Pet. 3. 1. Iude , 22. 23. Erroneous therefore , & derogatory is it to the nature of the gospel , & free donation of Christ , thus to impropriate and ingro 〈…〉 the keyes , whichly common to all Christians in their place and order .

3. Lastly I do affirme with Mr Smyth that the twelve were as yet but disciples , and not actually Apostles . Designed in deed they were to the office of Apostles , but not possessed of it . A man may call such a woman his wife , before they be actually maryed , and such a child his heire , though he be not for the present possessed of a foot of his inheritance , nor like to be before the testators death : and that this was the condition of the twelve , I prove by these reasons .

If the twelve were called to the office of Apostles , Mat. 16. then Christ called men to an office , for which they were altogether vnfit , & vnfurnished , which to imagine were impious against Christ .

Now that they were vtterly vnapt to this office , appeares in these particulars .

First they wanted that Christian fortitude , and courage , which was most needfull for that office .

Secondly , they were ignorant of the nature of Christs kingdom ▪ not forecasting his death , nor beleeving his resurrection , vnfurnished also with the gift of tongues , and so vtterly vnable to teach the gentiles , for whose sake they received their commission in a speciall manner , Mat. 16. 21. 22. & 20. 20. 21. & 26. 51. Mark . 16. 11. 14. Luke ●4 . 21. Act. 2. 1. 2. 3. 4. Mat. ●8 . 19. Ephe. 3. 5. 6.

2. When Christ ascended on high he gave gifts to men , viz. Apostles , Evangelists , &c. Ephe. 4. 8. 11. And then and not before then was the Church capable of the office of Apostles , who were to preach the gospel to all nations , when the partition wall was broken down betwixt the Iewes & Gentiles , that the gentiles also which were formerly straungers & forreigners , might now be made citizens with the saints , and of the househood of God , Ephe. 2. 12. 19 ▪

And a● this particular I have now in hand , seemeth to receive confirmation from the last scripture Mr Bernard bringeth for the Apostles commission , which is Mark. 13. 34. where Christ at his departing into a straunge countrey sets his house in order , gives his servants authority and appoints them their work ▪ so doth the exposition & application of the same scripture to the generall purpose ( if we compare with this place that which he affirmeth in another ) argue him that brings it of a mind very vnsound and vnstable .

Here , ( as all men see ) Mr Bern. allegeth it to prove that the cheif officers onely are by commission from Christ to medle in the publick affaires of the Church , and in particular to redresse things amisse , and to censure offenders : but in his second book being pressed Reply vnto Mr Smith pag. 195. by an argument by Mr Smith taken from this scripture , he fare and ●●at●y denyes , that the Lord in this place intends to set out any government of the Church at all : and thus compared with himself , he is like nothing l●sse then himself .

Now since Mr B. disclayms this scripture as not intended at all of the goverment of the Church , & that in his 2. & better thoughts , I have no reason to spend much time in answering him . Onely I can not passe by one frivolous exception , in his reply , against Mr Sm. and another absurd collection of his owne . Where Mr Smyth affirmes , that every servant or disciple in the Church hath authority ( and that truely ) ( if he have the word of God he hath authority , for the word caryes authority with it , wheresoever it goes ) Mr B. excepts first that by servants are meant Officers : which as it is true sometimes , so is it otherwise for the most part , espetially in the parables of this kind , Mat. 25. 14. Luk. 19. 12. 13. to which this parable seemeth well to consort : wherin since all have received some good thing , or substance , from Christ to be dispensed for the good of the rest , all should dilig●tly & faithfully imploy their labour in the same , ever expecting the returne of the mayster , & all & every one of them watching , and the Porter specially , according to that speciall charge , layd vpon him to watch , ver. 34. 35. 37. but the exception I meane is that by servants cannot be meant the Church , because the house is the Church , and the authority not given to the house , but to the servants in the house , who are to look over others . Mark here , in the case of goverment , the house must needs be the Church , the Church and house are both one , & Christ speaking of the house , or Church meanes the people , excluding the officers : and yet Math. 18. in the case of goverm●t , the officers are in Christs speach the Church , or house ( for they are all one ) excluding the people . But to the poynt , as the officers are both the Lords † † Rom. 1. ● Heb. 3. ● . servants in his house & parts of the * * Heb. 3. 6 1 Pet 2. 5. Gal. 6. 10. Ephe. 2. 10. house and houshould also , so are the people not onely the house or of the house and houshould as in the forenamed scriptures , but “ “ Mat. 25. 14. Luk. 19 12. 13. Rom. 6. 16. 22. Rev. 1. 1. & 7. 3. the Lords servants in his house also .

The idle and senseles exposition Mr B. gives is of the Porters watching . Where the mayster at his departure appoyntes every serv●●t his work , and commaunds all to watch , and the porter specially , least he 〈◊〉 suddenly and fynd them sleeping , Mr B. to ioyne all together for the holding out of Mr Smythes Argument , makes the Porter Gods spirit , as if the Holy Ghost were one of the servants , and had a commaundement from Christ to watch , least it should be found asleep at his comming . And by this , I hope , it appeareth in the generall contrary to Mr B. affirmation , that the power of Christ ( or keyes of the kingdom ) is not delegated or committed primarily much lesse solaryly , or alone , to the officers of the Church how soever they as the governours are to direct , and as the minister to exequute in the vse of this power , or of these keyes . Of the particulars hereafter . That which comes next into consideration is , that the Apostles committed that theyr power received from Christ not to Mr B. the body of the people , but to the cheife ministers of the gospell , and cheife officers of the Church .

First here let the reader observe how Mr B. interesses these Answ. cheiftayns onely in the power of Christ as the Apostles successours ( excluding himselfe and the rest of his rank ) that he may advance the throne of Antichrist in his cheife ministers the Lord Archbishops & Bishops , whose chayre he thus stoutly laboures to vphold with both shoulders .

Secondly I deny , that eyther the Evangelists , such as were Timothy , and Titus , succeeded the Apostles in their office , or that any other ministers in the Church , did or do succeed eyther the Apostles , or Evangelists , as they were such ( as we speak ) . They were extraordinary officers in the first planting of the faith amongst the gentiles , theyr qualifications extraordinary , and miraculous , as the gift of tongues , and the like , and so theyr offices were determined in theyr persons . And yet I deny not but the true Ministers of the gospell the Bishops or Elders , in theyr particular Churches do succeed the Apostles ( though not in office ) yet in theyr ordinary ministration of the word , sacraments , censures , prayer , ordination , & all other ordinances of the Church whatsoever , according to the order Christ hath left ; but that the Apostles and Evangelists have by any order committed theyr power or any part of it to any such Cheif Ministers or rather Lords , yea spiritual tyrants as the Lordbishops & Archbishops in Engl. are , that I deny withall my power . There are no such cheifteyns in the Church of Christ , or communion of saynts . The Apostles did , by the Churches free choyce , ordeyn in every particular assembly a company of Elders or Bishops , whome they charged with the particular flockes , in , and to which they were to minister the holy things of God , and none other . Act. 14. 23. and 20. 17. 28. 1 Tim. 3. 1. 2. 4. Tit. 1. 5. 1 Pet. 5. ● . 2. Much lesse are the great Antichrists of Rome , the Popes , and Cardinalles , the Apostles , and Evangelists successours in any right by the word of God , or capable in that theyr estate of Apostolicall or other ministeriall power of Christ , as you Mr B. will make them , of which your Popish errour more in place .

Now for the scriptures cited , they serve well to prove that which no man denyes , in which kynd of disputing Mr B. hath a speciall faculty .

The scriptures are ▪ 1 Tim. 1. 3. and 3. 14. 15. and 5. 21. 22. Tit. ● . 5. which places prove thus much in effect , that Timothy was to see false doctrine suppressed in Ephesus ; that men gifted according to the word of God should be chosen into the office of Bishops and Deacons : that he should deale vnpartially in all things : that he should not partake in the sinns of other men by laying hands suddaynly vpon any : & that Titus was left in Crete to redresse things amisse , and to ordayne Elders in the Churches .

And what followes vpon this ? I know well what Mr B. infers : namely , that the cheif Ministers alone in the Churches whether pure , or impure ( by which latter he meanes the Church of Rome ) as he expounds himself ▪ pag. 145. that is , that Popes , Cardinalls , Archbishops , Bishops , Suffraganes , Chauncelours ▪ and the rest of the triumphant Clergy , and they alone should medle with supressing errour , rectifying things amisse , calling and ordayning ministers , and that all others are absolutely inhibited any medling with these things . Well , ( to let passe your fearefull retyring ( Mr B. ) into the battered bulwarks of the Papists for succour , and the discharging of your selfe , and all the inferiour ministery that these cheif ministers might reigne alone ) the scriptures do not debar●e the members of the Church from medling in those things in their place , and order , nor impropriate them to the cheife Lords , as is pretended , onely they declare that the officers are to do theyr own duetyes in those businesses , and to put the brethren in remembrance of theyrs , to commaund , teach , and speak those things , exhorting & rebuking with all authority by the word of God as occasion serves . 1 Tim. 4. 6. 11. Tit. 2. 15. And if Mr B. will conclude any thing for his purpose by the scriptures he alledgeth he must take this position for graunted , that whatsoever Paul wrytes to Timothy , or Titus , touching the Church , about that onely they , & theyr successours the cheif ministers are to medle ; which presumpteous affirmation is sufficiently refuted by the very recitall of it . He that reads over the Epistles but with a pece of an ey may see the contrary . There is no greater force in this collection then in that Mar. 13. 34. bycause the porter is to watch , therefore he alone , and not the rest also , which is contrary to the expresse words immediatly following , where all are commaunded to watch , v. 37. And thus the conclusion , which Mr B. would make , that the place , 1 Cor. 5. though generally spoken , must be vnderstood of the cheife officers of the Church , is without pr●mises . It must be vnderstood as it is spoken , though both he , & the Pope say nay to it , and of the meaning of it , we shall speak hereafter at large , when we come to handle the censures of the Church , as also of your pretended proof . 2 Cor. 2. 6.

Onely I must needs take knowledge of that part of the truth , which Mr B. being set vpon the rack of his conscience in reading this , 1 Cor. 5. is compelled to confesse , and that is , that from v. 5. ●● may be gathered for the body of the Church , that the offender must be delivered to Satan with their knowledge publiquely , when they meet together in the open assembly .

Towching which his graunt I observe these three particulars .

First it overthrowes the practise in the Church of England , where the offender is excommunicated by the Chauncelour , or Officiall , it may be , fourty miles off from the body of the congregation , whereof he is a member , and that most what without the presence of any one of the body , yea or their privity eyther , till such tymes as eyther the Parish Preist , or Church dore signify the matter vnto them .

2. If the officers must judge , and excommunicate in the open assembly , then can they alone in no sense be the Church . For the Church is nothing but the assembly . And it is all one to say the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 officers in the assembly , are the Church , as to say the officers in the assembly , are the assembly ▪ which is a senseles affirmation . And if the Officers alone be the Church , to which complaint is to be made , and which is to reprove the offender and judge him , they must do it in a distinct assembly from the body , and not in the assembly compounded necessarily of the officers and the body : as your Courtkeepers doe in their Consistories , & the Elders in the reformed Churches in their private Chambers .

3. It is most vntrue which you say , that no more can be gathered from this place , but that excommunication was performed in the presence of the body of the Church , and with their knowledge being gathered together : it is apparent that they which were gathered together , were by the power of Christ to deliver to Satan the offender , to purge out the old leven , to iudge , and to put out from among themselves that wicked fornicatour . v. 5. 6. 7. 12. 13. of which more hereafter .

And so I come to the 4. Reason against Popularity ( as you term ●t ) but in truth against Christian liberty : which is grounded vpon Ephe. 4. 11. 12. Your words are these .

It is most apparant that Christ ascending vp gave gifts for preaching , Mr B. administration of sacraments , and government vnto some sorts of men , who 〈…〉 e set out there and plainly distinguished from the other saynts , the body of the Church .

Against this hitherto I take no great exception : though the Apostles Answ. meaning may be better layd down thus , that Christ Iesus the King and Lord of his Church hath set in it certaine sorts , and orders , of officers rightly fitted , and furnished with graces for the reparation of the saynts , and aedification of his body to the worlds end .

This we affirme as lowd as you , and with more comfort . And therfore after I have observed in a few wordes , how little this scripture serves for your present purpose , I will in as few more make it appeare , how directly it serves against you in many other mayn matters , and that you in bringing it have onely lighted a candle whereby to discover your own nakednes .

This then is that which you would conclude , that bycause Christ hath given power , and charge to the sorts of ministers here set downe for the reparation of the saynts , and aedification of the body , that therefore no brethren out of office may medle with the reparation and aedification of the Saynts , or Church .

I do acknowledge that onely Apostles , Prophets , &c. by office , and as works of their Ministery , are to look to the reparation , and aedification of the body : but that the brethren out of office , are discharged of those du●ties , I deny , any more then the rest of the servants were of watching , ( though out of office ) bycause the Porter alone was by office to watch . Mark . 13. 34 37. Yea look what is layd vpon the officers in this place , after a more speciall manner , by vertue of their office , that also is layd vpon the rest of the brethren els where in the same words to be performed in their places as a duty of love , for which they have not onely liberty but charge from the Lord .

The officers are here charged with the reparation or knitting together of the saynts : the same duty in the same words is imposed vpon every brother * * Gal. 6. 1. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 spirituall : and I hope you the Ministers will not be the onely spirituall men in the Church .

Secondly the officers are here given to aedifie the body : the same duety in the same termes is layd vpon every one of the brethren in their places . 1 Thes. 5. 11. and vnto these few might be added an hundred places of the same nature . Why then should the Ministers of the Lord , or any other † † Num. 11. 29. 1 King . 22. 24. for their sake envy , vnto the Lords people eyther their graces or liberty , or thus arrogate all vnto themselves , as though all knowledge were treasured vp in their breasts , all power given into their handes , & as though no drop of grace for aedification or comfort of the Church could fall from els where then from their lips . Moses in the place of numbers before named wisht that all the Lords people were Prophets , and that the Lord would put his spirit vpon them : and Paul gives liberty to * * 1 Cor. 14. 3. 23. 36. 31. the whol Church , and to all in it ( women excepted ver. 34. ) to prophesie one by one for the instruction , edification and comfort of all : but with Mr B : and his Church , I perceive , neyther Moses prayer , nor Pauls graunt , nor Gods spirit must be avayleable , or find acceptance for aedification by any save the Ministers . The subjects of Kings vse to complayn much of Monopolyes , but the subjects of the Lord Iesus have greater cause of complaint , that he himself , his power , presence , and graces wherewith he honoureth all his saynts , are thus monopolized , and ingrossed .

The similitude which here you borrow from the body of man , wherein ( you say ) the special members have their speciall vertues in themselves given of God and not bestowed vpon them by the body , as the eyes to see , the tongue to speak &c. for the confirmation of the power of the Lord Iesus , or liberty to teach , admonish , and censure in the hands of the officers alone is faulty in both parts of it , and conteynes in it sundry errours both theologicall , and phylosophicall .

And first I do here most justly except against your shuffling together I. and confounding of the personall gifts , graces , and vertues of the Ministers and their ministeriall power or office . The first in deed they have from Christ , and not from , or by the Church at all , as their knowledge , zeale , vtterance , wisdome , holynes , and the like : with which the Church findes them furnished , & so appoints them vnder Christ to vse these gifts in office of Ministery , whereof out of office they have erst given knowledge : & this power or appointment , which they have from or by the Church thus to vs● these gifts is another thing then their personall gifts , and qualifications themselves , which you Mr B. do very fraudulently confound .

Secondly , it is ignorantly affirmed , that God endu●s certayn members II. of the body with speciall vertues and properties , as th●●y with seing , and the like : & that they have thes properties not from the body but from God . For first the very vertue , or faculty of seing is not in the ey , but in the soul , which vseth the ey onely for the instrument of seing , & so other parts in their kind . Oculus non vide● , sed anima per oculi●● . And that not immediately neyther , but with the help of the spirits , naturall , vitall , and animall diffused throughout the body , which the soul vseth most immediately as the instruments of all life , sense , & motion . And so it comes to passe not onely in death where the soul and body are separated , but in sundry diseases also of the body , that the ey fayleth in seeing , and so other members in their service .

Thirdly , as the Elders of the Church ( I confesse ) may be compared III. to eyes in the body , and the Deacons to hands in a respect , so I deny the similitude to hold absolutely . Similitudes ( as they say ) do not run vpon four feet : & to streyn them above that which is intended by the holy Ghost in vsing them , is a course full both of vanity and errour . The Deacons are the handes of the Church for the distribution of her bodily things to them that need , & yet I trow , you would not have the Church suffer the poore to starve , where the Deacons are wanting to minister , or fayling in their ministration : so are the Elders the eyes & mouth of the Church for her government , and ministration of spirituall things , & yet must not the Church perish spiritually for their want , or negligence : no , the Lord is more mercifull to his people then so , and doth nor ty them so short in the meanes of their aedification , & salvation , how streyt and hard hearted soever you M. B. are towards them , or contemptuous of them : they may , and must use in cases of necessity their best helpes , for the distribution of things simply necessary to the body . And dare you say ( as you haue done in both your books ) that the officers are absolutely to the Church , as the eyes to the body ? and that there is no spirituall light in the rest of the members save onely in them ? and that all the body besides and without them is darknes ? Indeed such a blind beetle your spirituall Lords , and you make your Churches , and so you lead them . But , oh you the people of God , yet in Babylon , partakers of the heavenly illumination , trust not these your Seers too much . they would be thought all ey from top to bottom , and would make you beleeve , that you the multitude are stoneblind , and can not possibly without them see one step before you , that so they might lead you by the lip , whither they list : but open your eyes more and more , and you shall see more and more clearely that the wayes of your Nationall Church ▪ are not the wayes which Christ hath left for his visible Churches to walk in , but a very by path : and take heed that these men , which would be thought all , and onely light , cause not a ●og of earthly ordinances to rise vpon you , and a dark mist to cover you .

To proceed . This one scripture , Ephe. 4. 11. 12. truely expounded , and according to the Apostles meaning , serves at one blow to overthrow the whol ministery of your Church of England , and all communion with it .

Your whol plea for your Ministery is , that you teach the word of God , & the true word of God , and therewith you invite all your guests vnto your banquet . But now if your ministery be not the Ministery which Christ hath set vp in his Ch: no● of the gifts , which he hath given vnto his Church , but of an other sort , & foundation , then it followes that no felowship or communion is to be had with it vnder any plausible pretense , nor vpon any experimentall profit neyther .

The officers then which Christ hath given for the aedification of his Church to the worlds end are , Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Pastors , & Teachers , Ephe. 4. 11. 12. Now the first three sorts of these abovenamed were extraordinary , & extraordinarily endued , for the first publishing of faith , and planting of Churches , and so as temporary are ceased , with their endowments , and this you graunt in effect , pag. 184. of your last book . And for the Pastor● and Teachers here spoken of , you Mr B : and the Ministers of your order would be thought the men . Of what sort then ( I pray you ) are your grand Metropolitans , your Archbishops , Bishops , Suffraganes , Deanes , Archdeacons , Chauncelours , Officials and the residew of that Lordly Clergy ? They must needs be of some other order then is here named , and the gifts of some other cheif Lord then of Christ , when he ascended on high , and gave his gifts , & that is Antichrist , whose gifts they were when he ascended on high , even to the throne of his Apostasy .

And now for you , which are set over the particular Parishes , to teach the people , ( as I confesse you of all the rest to be likest vnto the true Pastours ) so by your own confession are you excluded from that rank . The Officers which Christ hath appointed , when he ascended , have received power ( by your own assertion ) not onely for preaching and administring the sacraments , but for government also . The pag. 92. want then of the power of government bewrayeth you to be anothers gift then Christs , even his and none others , which hath devised an other order , and distribution of giftes then ever came into Christs hart to appoint .

Lastly , as it is true you affirm , that Christ never sayd to the body of the congregation , viz: in expresse termes , go preach , so is it most vntrue which you intend , viz: that he never gave libertie , and charge to any out of office to teach in the exercise of prophesy . This point I have touched formerly , but will more fully handle hereafter . The same I also affirme in the second place touching the power of government , not opposing your words well interpreted , but your meaning , which is , that none but men in office have power eyther to reforme any abuse in the Church or to perform any other necessary Church duty without them . And for shutting vp of this fourth Argument , let it be considered , that here is a great difference in administration of doctrine by teaching , and of admonition & excommunication in the order of discipline . Onely one man in the Church doth teach at once , and all the rest both Elders & people are taught by him , but the whol Church may admonish , or excommunicate one or more at once , or by one act : and so though Christ never say to the Church , goe teach , yet , he sayth to the Ch: admonish , & excommunicate . Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. In doctrine one man teacheth the whol Church , & the whol Church is taught : in disciplyne the whole Church reproveth and excommunicateth one man and hi● censureth .

And thus your light Mr B. which you boast , is as clear● as the sun in the firmament of heaven , is darkened , your sun is gone downe at noon day . Amos 8. 9.

The fifth reason is thus layd down .

It is never to be found in all the old testament that the people , but princes Mr B. and ecclesiasticall governours men in authority were reproved for suffring holy things to be abused . Ezech. 22. 26. 1 ▪ Sam. 2. 27. 1 King . 13. so in the new testament , Math. 23. Rev. 2. 1. 8. 12. 18. and 3. 1. 7. 14. no mention in these places is made of the people .

It seems Mr B. hath learnt of them which give counsel to affirme Answ. all things peremptorily , vnder hope to find some men with whom a confident affirmation will go as far as a modest proof .

But here as alwayes I do except against ( as a corner stone of Babylon ) your vnequall yoaking of ecclesiasticall Officers & Ministers in the goverment of the Church , with Princes & Magistrates in their civil authority : there is no proportion betwixt them . A Lyon and an Ox will payr better then these two kinds of governours , and governments . Neyther can it be rightly sayd of Church officers that they are men in authority : they are men in * * 2 Chr. 35 3. Num. 16 9. Rom. 16. 31. 2 Cor. 4. 5. service and charge , whether we respect God , or the Church . They have power , I graunt , for they have the † † Rom. 1. 16 1 Cor 5. 4. 5 gospell to preach & minister , which is , the power of God to salvation : they are to speak with ‘* ‘* ●i● . 2. 15 authority , and that also in the order of office , and by speciall commission . And so the Evangelists testifie of Christ , that “ “ Mat. 1. 7. 28. 29. Mar. 1. 22. he taught as having authority , and not as the scribes : the reason was , that where the manner of teaching amongst the Scribes was very corrupt , and degenerate , affecting the peoples harts with no reverence of God , Christ on the contrary did manifest in his teaching such vertue , and vigour of the spirit , as did draw even the prophane hearers into admiration . There are in deed in the common wealth Kings , and Magistrates in authority under them , partakers of their kingly power by subordination , by which participation they properly and effectually even as the King himself , bind and loose , save and destroy , exact and procure obedience civily both in Church and common wealth , and that by a kingly and lordly power over the people , whose Kings , Lords , and Maysters they are : but the Officers in the Church are in no such authority by participation of Christs kingly power , neyther can they properly and effectually bind and loose , save and destroy , exact and procure obedience as Christ doth : neyther are they , as civil Magistrates , though the Kings servants , and ministers , yet the peoples Lords , and maysters , but both Christs , and the peoples servants , and Ministers .

Now let any judge that hath in him eyther religion , or reason , conscience or common sense , if it be not irreligious , vnconscionable , vnreasonable , and senselesse that the body of the Church should have no more liberty and power in the imployments of their servants and Ministers in their Office , then the body of the common wealth in the imployments of their Lords , and Maysters in their Office . To this also I may adde , that there are many civil ordinances and constitutions in the common wealth which concerne not one of a thowsand of the Kings people , many Magistrates & Officers chosen the inferiour by the superiour without the peoples privity or consent , many administrations vsed , judgements passed , & exequutions done , which the greatest part of the people do not ( nor are bound ) so much as once to enquire after : much lesse are they bound to complayn of the breach of every civil ordinance , to see it reformed , to charge every Magistrate to look to his office , to admonish him if in any thing he deale corruptly , or wickedly , and if he will not be reclaymed but goe obstinately on ( in the spirit of an Haeretick , Idolater , or Atheist ) to disclaym or depose him : but in the Church , all and every ordinance concernes every person ( as a part of their communion ) ( without the dispensation of necessity ) for their vse , and † † 1 Cor. 3. 22. & 14. 26. aedification : all the * * Act. 1. 15 23. 26. and 6. 1. 2. 3. 5. and 14. 23. & 15. 2. 3. 2. Cor. 8. 19 23. Officers to be chosen by suffrages and consent of the multitude : the brethren are to admonish their brethren of every violation of Gods commaundement , and so in order to ‘* ‘* Mat. 18 15. 17. 18. tell the Church , and to see the parties reformed : to observe and to take notice of the officers cariage , and ministration , and to “ “ Col. 4. 17. say to Archippus ( as there is need ) take heed to thy ministery , that thou hast received of the Lord , that thou fulfil it : and if the Ministers will deal corruptly , and so persevere in the spirit of profanenes , heresy , idolatry , or atheism , to ‘† ‘† Math. 18. 17. Rom. 16. 17. 18. Gal. 5. 12. 1 Tim. 6. 3. 4. 5. 2 Tim. 3. 1 2. 3. 4. 5. Tit. 3. 10. 11. censure , depose , reiect or avoyd them : otherwise they betray their own soules , and salvation .

These things I thought good , vpon this occasion further to annext , touching the difference and dissimilitude of civil and ecclesiasticall governours and government , not doubting for conclusion to affirm , that ther is no one errour in Popery serving more directly to advance Antichrist to the highest step of his throne , or there to establish him , then thus to confound these two estates in their authority , and manner of government : though ( alasse ) too many will needs transforme Ministers into Magistrates , servants into Lords : and as * * Rev. 17. 3. 4. 13. the Kings of the earth have given their power & authority vnto the beast , and arrayed the great whore tha● fitteth vpon the beast , with purple , and scarlet , and gilded her with gold , pretious stones , and pearles , so do they still help her to hold her kingly & lordly authority , and to beare vp her pompous trayne , and that specially by enforcing those scriptures for ecclesiasticall government , and the manner and order of it , which were left for direction in civil governments , and their administrations .

And yet for more speciall answer vnto you Mr Bernard , it followes not , that , bycause the people are not interessed in the reformation of abuses by the scriptures you cite , therefore it is never found eyther in the old , or new testament , that any such duty lyes vpon them . The scriptures do not intend to speak of all things at once , but that charge , which is omitted in one place , is oft tymes supplyed , and prescribed in another . And to this purpose , I do desire that these few scriptures amongst many others may be considered of : Num. 5 1. 2. Iosh. 7. 1. 11. 12. 24. 25. & 22. 11. 12. — 16. 17. 18. 20. Iudg. 20. 11. 12. 2 Sam. 20. 22. Ezech. 44. 5. 6. 7. 9. Luke , 17. 3. 4. Gal. 6. 1. 1 Thes. 5. 14. 1 Cor. 5. whol Ch. & all these & many other of the same nature will manifest , that the people are charged with the reformation of abuses for the keeping pure of their communion , as well as the officers , though not in the same order , or degree . But what need we seek further ? as all the scriptures brought forth by Mr Bern. do charge the govervours with reformation , and none of them exempt the people in their rank , and order , so are there some of them so pregnant against him in the point , & by which he hath been so oft silenced to his face , that , if he had not set himself in opposition , without all measure , or modesty , he would never offer his cause to be tryed by that evidence in writing , by which in speach , he hath been so oft cast and convinced .

The scriptures I especiall mean are Rev. 2. & 3. And the thing which he would prov● from those scriptures is , that , bycause Iohn in the verses named by him , speakes to the Angels of the particular Churches , that therefore it conernes the Angels , that is , the chief officers alone , and no way the people ( no nor any of the Officers but one in a Church by Mr Bernards exposition ) to see to the reformation of such abuses , and disorders , as in those Churches are reproved . But if in these scriptures he thus sever , and sejoyne the officers , and people , why might not the officers be excluded by a● good consequence , by other verses of these Chapters , where mention is made of the Churches , and not of the Angels , as the people in these , where the Angels onely , and not the people are mentioned ? and both alike . The answer , and truth then is , that Iohn * * Rev. 1. 11. writes and sendes these Epistles or this book , to the 7. Churches in Asia , as he is expresly directed by Christ : & so willeth all men to † † Chap. 2. 7. 11. 17. 29. & 3. 6. 13. 22. heare , and take knowledge what the spirit sayth to the Churches : but bycause the matters were publique , & he absent from the Churches , it was both most convenient , & necessary he should direct his letters to the officers for the whol Churches , as being not onely most fit for their knowledge , but most bound by their places to provoke the Churches vnto , and to direct and goe before them in the reformation of such evills as were found amongst them . As if the King at any time write his letters to any corporation in the land about some such publick busines , as wherein every free man hath an hand , he directs them to the MAIOR , BAYLY , or some other cheife officer , by whome they are to be published to the whole body , and the matter managed , which they conteyn , though as I formerly sayd , every freeman be to speak to , and consent in the busines .

And here it is too much Mr B. should say ( as he doth ) that no mention in these places of the revelation is made of the people , but of the governours onely , where Christ expresly enjoynes Iohn to write his vision , and to send it vnto the 7. Churches , ver. 11. where Iohn expresly salutes them with grace and peace , as Paul and others do them to whom they write in the beginning of their letters , v. 4. Where he also calls those candlesticks he saw in his vision , the Churches , though distinguished from the Officers , or Angels , whom he calls starres , or lights . ver. 12. 13. 20. and lastly and specially where after his both commendations , & reproofs , promises , and threatnings , he wills men to listen what the spirit sayth not of , but vnto the Churches . Chap , 2. 7. 11. 17. 29. & 3. 6. 13. 22. which do necessarily conclude the people in them .

But to let passe generalls , & to come to such particulars in these Chapters , as wherein the suffring of evills in the Churches is reproved . Onely I must needs shew Mr B. his great oversight , that , where he should prove , that onely the angels of the Churches were reproved for suffering evils vnreformed , he points vs to sundry Angels , and Churches , where there is no mention at all made of suffring evils , but all of doing , as well by the Angels , as Churches , as in Ephesus , Sardi , and Laodicea : and which is worse , vnto other Angels , and Churches , where there were no evils at all worthy reproof eyther done or suffred : as in Smyrna , and Philadelphia . And is not this sound dealing ? The Lord Iesus finds nothing in the Ch: of Smyrna & Phyladelphia worthy of taxation , but all of commendation , ergo the cheif governours onely in these Churches are reproved for suffring evils vnreformed . I now come to the particular scriptures , in number two , where mention is made of evils suffred vnreformed , and reproof layd vpon them which suffered them in the two Churches of Pergamus and Thyatira .

And that Iohn directs his reproofs against the Churches , and not against the Officers alone , I do thus manifest .

1. Them , whose workes Christ commends , for that , dwelling where Satans throne was , they kept his name , and denyed not his fayth , &c. them I say he reproves , and against them he deales , for suffering them that m●●nteyn the doctrine of Balaam , & of the Nichola●tans , v. 13. 14. 15. 16.

2. They which are commended by Christ for their workes , love , service , fayth , patience , and encrease in works , they are also reproved by him for suffering the woman Iezebell , the false Prophetesse to teach and to deceive , vers. 19. 20.

But it were senselesse to affirm , that the Angel alone , and not the people with him , was commended for dwelling where Satans throne was , keeping Christs name , and not denying his fayth in persecution , that the Angel alone was commended for his works , love , service , fayth , patience , and the like , and as senseles , as to affirm , that onely some of the Angel of the Church of Smyrna was to be cast into prison . ver. 10 , and therefore , as the faythfull , the brethren , the saynts , the people , had their portion in these Christian vertues , and in the commendations given vnto them , so also do they beare their part in the reproofs due to the toleration of such evils as were found amongst them , and are exhorted to repentance . v. 16.

And this the two adversative conjunctions but & notwithstanding , or neverthelesse , v. 14. & 20. do evidently declare . In many graces these Churches did abound , and faythfull they were in great tryalls , but , or notwithstanding in this they fayled that they were not zealous enough against such deceivers , as crept in amongst them , but suffered them to others hurt , & their owne danger also . ver. 24.

Of these things I have spoken something the more at large , to discover the bold injury which Mr B. offereth vnto these scriptures : which may also serve to manifest both the libertie & dutie of the people for the reforming of abuses in the Churches , against the usurpation of the English , or other Clergie whatsoever .

Now to that which is inferred by way of conclusion , that 1 Cor. 5. must be expounded by other places , and by the whole course of scripture , & the like , & that , tell the Church , Mat. 18. 17. must be vnderstood , tell the cheif Officers of the Church , these severalls must be answered .

First let it alwayes be remembred , that we beleeve , and confess that the Elders which Christ hath left in his Church , are to govern the same in all things ( provided alwayes the nature of ecclesiasticall government be not exceeded ) according to the lawes by him prescribed , and that so doing , the brethren are most streytly bound to obey them , without disturbance , intrusion , or opposition , vnder peyn of Gods wrath for their rebellion against him , and them . Heb. 13. 17. But as els where is observed , it is one thing to be the Church , an other thing to govern the Church , one thing for the officers to direct , and go before the brethren in all things as guides , and another matter vtterly to exclude the brethren from any part of the communion , as neyther being the Church , nor any part of it , as this exposition doth .

These things Mr B. ignorantly blunders together , and so he and others rayse odious clamours against vs of Anabaptism , popularity , and the like , as if we confounded all persons , and things , and made the Church a very Chaos , or Babel , without form or order .

2. I acknowledge that one scripture must be expounded by an other , but ever the more dark , and obscure by that which is more playne and lightsome : now so playne , cleare evident , and perspicuous are the two scriptures in hand for excommunication , the former Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. for the order and degrees of proceeding , the other 1 Cor. 5. for the persons interessed in the buesinesse , as that to bring in other scriptures for the expounding of them , is in truth as needlesse , and lost a labour , as to light the sun and moon a candle .

Now for the places , severally , and first for Math. 18. 17. where Mr Bern. sayth Mr B. tell the Church , is tell the cheif officers of the Church : and so must be expounded .

Well , the words are cleare as the sun , tell the Church , that is , Answ. the congregation or assembly whereof the offender is a member . But where you make the Church , not the officers simply , but the cheif officers , therein you deale both wisely and dutifully . Wisely ( to let passe other respects ) in preventing a quaestion , which otherwise you could not possibly answer : for if you had sayd the officers simply , it would have demaunded of you where your & your fellow Ministers power of excommunication had been : duetify , & as an obedient child in giving the rod of discipline into the hands of your reverend fathers alone , and their substitutes . Well Mr B. whomsoever the Lord Iesus meant by the Church , Mat. 18. he never meant , that the Archbishop of York , the Archdeacon of Nottingham , the Officiall of Southwel , were the Church of Worksop : and for this I will spare all Arguments , and send you to your owne guilty conscience for conviction , which as it condemns you in yourself , ( which is also the case of many thowsands in the Land ) so do I earnestly wish both you , and them to remember with fear and trembling the condemnation of him that is greater then your conscience . Ioh. 3. 20. So far are they from being the Church of Worksop as they are not so much as members of it , nor of any other particular Church in the kingdome : they are neyther the Pastours ( so called ) nor vnder the Pastors of any particular Church , but with their tanscendent jurisdiction in their Provinciall , and Diocesan Churches , take their scope without orb , or order : and as clouds without rayn , carryed about with the wind of ambition , and covetousnes for the the greatest part .

To leave them , and come to your reasons Mr B. by which you would prove , that tell the Church , is tell the governours . But here behold the fruites of an vnstable mind . This man in his former book laboured by many scriptures , and reasons to lay downe the nature of the Churches government , and in speciall to prove , that the Church , Math. 18. 17. to which complaint of sinns was to be made , was the cheif officers onely , and this he affirmes also to be * * Pag. 98. the iudgement , and the practise of all reformed Churches . But lo now in his second book , he devoures the hallowed thing , and labours withall his power to perswade † † pag. 211. 212. young divines , & seely country people , ( as he speakes ) ( and as in truth they had need be both young , and seely , that are perswaded by him ) that the points of discipline and Church-government are not so apparant by the scriptures , as that they can rightly iudge of them . And to this end he brings in the variety of iudgements , and contradictions of learned men , some holding no government at all , others that an externall government is to be had , but of these , some holding it alterable , others constant , and perpetuall , and of these some to be in the Pope , & Cardinalls , others in the body of the congregation , some in the Presbytery , with the peoples consent , and others , ( which he puts last , as best and for which he brings sundry reasons , referring the reader to the treatises written to that end ) in the Bishops his Lords . And againe touching the punishment of offenders , some he brings in holding excommunication , but not suspension , some holding both , and some neyther . And particularly for Math. 18. he musters in thick , and threefold reasons and persons so reasoning , and proving , that the place ( and so of Lev. 19. 17. ) doth nothing at all concern discipline , or ecclesiasticall censures , but that Christs meaning there was onely to direct the Iewes how to carry things before the Synedrion , in cases of bodily injury . And thus he brings mens contrary opinions to darken the scriptures , which are most playne , like so many foul feet to trouble the pure fountaynes of living water , that the thirsty may not drink of them . And as a learned man in our age , & nation , to discover the vanity of prognosticatours , gathered together their contrary guesses of the wether , and so presented them : so this man to make the government of Christs Church as vncertayne as an Almanack , sets together , and so offers to the wiew of the world the contrarieties of opinions concerning it . Now if other men should take this course Mr B. doth , in other points of religion , and one lay down the differences that are about predestination & the points depending vpon it , some vtterly denying it , others affirming it , and of these some grounding it vpon Gods mere grace , others vpon mans faith , or workes foreseen : an other about baptisme , some denying it to all infants , others ministring it to all , others to such onely as are of Christian parents in a sort , and others onely to them that are of beleeving parents , at the least on the one side : a third about the Lords supper , in which point some hold transubstantiation , others consubstantiation , others onely a sacramentall vnion , which some also will have merely rationall , others reall also : there could not be a playner way beaten for all Atheism to come into the world by , nor a course devised by the Divell more pregnant to perswade the multitude , that there were no certaynty , nor soundnes in the scriptures . But let God have the glorie of his truth , and of the clearnes in it , and let men bear the just blame , and shame of their naturall blyndnes : and in speciall let Christ have the honour of being as * * Heb. 3. 5. 6. faythfull in his owne house , as Moses was in his Maisters , in setting orders and officers in it and let not vile flesh dare to flatter Princes and Prelates , to mislead silly soules , and to preach liberty and licentiousnes to the world , make Christ Iesus an Idol King , having a kingdome vpon earth without lawes , or officers , for the administring of it : nor to make his redeemed , Idoll subjects , as whom it concerns little or nothing , whether they be vnder Chrits lawes , and officers , or vnder Antichrists his professed adversary . Now though I will not trouble my self , and the reader about every stone , that Mr. B. idely casts in the way , yet such as may stumble the weakest passenger , I will remove , and so returne to my former task .

And in the first place I will answer certaine reasons in number six , brought by Mr B. for the superiority of his Lord Bishops : but those not backed with the scriptures , as in other points ( when he thinks he speaks the truth ) his manner is .

The first is taken from the succession of Iames at Ierusalem , of Mr B. Peter at Antioch , of Peter & Paul at Rome , & of Mark at Alexandria . I.

I answer first , that these were not Bishops set over certayn Churches Ans. here , and there , ( though vpon occasion they tarryed some good space in some certayne Churches ) but generall men , Apostles , and Evangelists , without successours in their Offices : & so the Protestants do generally answer the Papists instancing them , as you do now .

2. I deny the very Apostles vsed any such Lordly and Papall authority , as to exclude eyther the inferiour officers , or people in Church affaires : the contrary is most evident in the choice of officers , Act. 1. 15. 23. 26. and 6. 1. 2. 3. 5. censuring of offenders ▪ 1 Cor. 5. and debating of other Church matters . Act. 15. 2. 3. 4. 6. 7. 22. 23. 30. & 21. 22.

The 2. Argument is taken from 1 Cor. 12. 28. where , say you , II. three degrees are reckoned vp , the first of Apostles , the second of Prophets , the third of Teachers . But since the two former orders , which are Apostles , and Prophets , are ceased as being temporary , how can there be superioritie in the third , which is but one ?

Your third and fourth Argument you draw from the superioritie III. IV. ordayned by God in the old testament , amongst ecclesiasticall persons : and the consequence of this Argument you prove two wayes : first bycause this order is not forbidden in the new testament : 2. bycause the ground of superiority is alike in the new testament , as in the old which is to preserve order .

But do you not consider Mr Bernard that * * Heb. 8. 13. & 10. 1. the old testament or law is abrogated , and disanulled , as having the shadow of good things to come ? and so every order , and ordinance in it , which is not plainly renued by Christ in the new ? And where you seem to make the Chief Priests besides the high Preist , a superiour order to the other formally differing , it is more ( if I be not deceived ) then can be proved by the word of God . I know no diversity of administrations amongst them , but that any of the Priests might in their course , and order offer sacrifice , & performe other the most solemne duties of preisthood .

But where you further adde that onely the high Priest did type out Christ , and not the other Preists so : you are much mistaken . The whole preisthood of Aaron , † † Heb. 10. 1. Heb. 7. 11 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 vnder which the law was established , was a type of Christs Preisthood ( though the high Preists in a speciall manner ) and their sacrifices , of his : and being a part of the law ( which was a shadow or first draught , whereof the gospel is the lively portrature ) it must needs be ceremoniall , and so a type : & to affirm otherwise is a grosse Iewish errour . Lastly as I graunt one end of the subordination of Ministeries to have been the preserving of order , so I deny that same order is to be preserved in the new testament , and in the old . The order of the old testament was the order of a nationall Church , but the order of the new testament is the order of a particular Church , wherein there needs no such subordination of Ministeries as in the other which was nationall , the ey of common sense sees this difference .

The law of nature whether written in the hart of man , or to be seen in the workmanship of the world , from which you draw your fift Argument , doth not prove superioritie amongst officers in a V. particular assembly , but onely that there must be government in all societies , which may well be , though the governours be of one order , and rank .

Lastly they against whom you deale , doe mainteyne ( as you say ) VI. an inequality in their government , in making the Pastor superiour to the Teacher . &c. and if they do so , why deal you against them ? and why do you labour so carefully to prove against them their own practise to be lawful ? though if they had not better warrant then you bring , they were ill bestead . But this is the point , Mr B. ( which you never touch ) do they which hold two kindes of officers , teaching , and governing Elders , or they which hold three orders , Pastors , Teachers , and governing Elders , eyther of them both hold such a superioritie , as gives the superiour jurisdiction over the inferiour Ministers ? do they make a Bishop of Bishops , or a sheepheard over a flock of sheepheards ? or do they set vp any such ravenous creature , as devours the liberty , and power both of the people , and other officers , as your Bishops do , even as * * Gen. 41. 18. 19. 20. the leane and evill favoured kyne , which Ioseph saw in his dreame , ate vp the fat kyne , and welfavoured : And for the erroneous exposition of Luke , Luk. 22. 25. 26. by D. Downame , and D. Dove , of which you boast , it hath been confuted both before , and since they gave it .

Now howsoever I purpose not the refutation of every particular in Mr B. second volume , which he might have drawen into as few lynes well nigh as he hath done leaves , had he not rather desired to have vttered many words , then many things : yet seing how he labours , even till sweating , to trouble the mindes of his young students , and seely countrymen , especially about the government , & discipline of the Church , not caring how absurd expositions of scriptures he admits of , nor how contrary one vnto an other , so he may weaken the faith of any that way , I will not therefore altogether hold off myne hand , but will open as I goe , his vnsound dealing in this case , especially about Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. which he will no way have meant of the piscipline or censures of the Church , & the order of proceeding therein , but that Christs meaning there , is to direct the Iewes how to prosecute their suits in matter of injury before the heathenish Magistrates . And this he labours , p. 218. 219. and so on , to prove by many obiections , & answers , yet ( as borrowed from other mens books ) so put out as other mens sayings , that by this meanes he himself may avoyd some part of that iust hatred , by the better sort of people , which he knowes will ly vpon this odious and vngodly glosse .

First then Mr Bernard graunts , pag. 212. that Christ hath left a government in his Church , and so consequently an order for the censuring of offenders , and he accounts the contrary opinion but a familisticall conceipt , and yet this truth he cannot let passe without some vntruth at the end of it , and therefore he addes that to this familisticall conceipt , the seely Brownists are drawn by force of their own grounds , which are because they will have all in the Church to be voluntary professours ; where voluntarynes is taken away by being vnder any government : to be subiect , & ruled is an estate far from freedome : Christians loose thereby Christian liberty , &c. And say in good sooth Mr B. would you haue men vnvoluntary professours against their wills , their profession must eyther be voluntary , with their wills , or vnvoluntary , and against them . “ “ Gen. 9. 27 Noah prophesying the calling of the Gentiles of Iaphets line , foretells , that God will allure or perswade them to dwell in Shems tents . And the scriptures do expressely affirme , that the Churches were gathered by * * Act. 28. 24. 2 Cor. ● . 13. perswasion , & voluntary submission vnto the gospel . And it is a strange thing , even above wonder , that any man should have preached so many yeares , and written so many books about religion , and yet not know , that the nature of religion is not to be constreyned , but perswaded .

And tell me ( Mr B. ) did you subscribe the last tyme vnto your Bishops government sponte & ex animo , according to the Canon , yea , or no ? Of if you think that to curious a quaestion , answer me , whether you be vnder the Kings goverment voluntarily , or against your will ? If against your will , it is a treacherous disposition in you : if voluntarily , or willingly , how seelely then do you ( which are thus rife in imputing seelines vnto others ) argue , that voluntarines is taken away by being vnder any government ? as though all government were tyranny , and all obedience slaverie : but reason , why Mr B. should thus speak , know I none , except it be , bycause in the Church of England the Ecclesiasticall government of & canonicall obedience vnto the Praelates is such , as he speakes of ▪ by which Christians indeed loose Christian liberty : but in the easy yoke of Christ it is not so . And if Christians must be subiect to * * Rom. 13. 3. 5. 6. Princes in civil affaires for conscience sake ( then which nothing is more voluntary , ) how much more is the subiection of the saints vnto the government of Christ , most free and voluntary , yea by how much more full and entyre Christs government is over the Saincts whether within , or without , by so much more voluntary , and free , is their obedience both wayes . And so passe on to the thing I che●●ly intend , and that is to shew , that if there be a government left for the Ch: , and order set for the punishment of offenders by Christ the King thereof , that then this 18. of Mat. is the place , where that order is to be found . Let Mr B : that I may vse his own words , Pag. 224. 225. declare where els is ( not a more perfect rule , but ) any rule for it left by Christ , or not any supply , but any mention made , els where &c. The reasons now follow in the next place by which Mr B. would prove that Christ Iesus , Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. speakes not of Church admonitions , and censures , but of private injuries , and the civil menaging of them .

His first reason is taken from the cohaerence of these verses with ● . that which goes before in the Chapter : where Christ , admonisheth his disciples to take heed both of the offences that should be given , as also of offending others . True Mr B. for the meaning of Christ was not onely to prepare them against the manifold scandals , and stumbling stones of offence ( especially in the new kingdom to which he prepared them ) which Satan would cast before them every step they took , eyther to turne them out of the way of life , or to stop them in it : but also to lay strayt charge vpon them , that they for their parts cast no stumbling blocks before others : admonishing them very severely neyther easily to take nor to give offence . And because through pride in our selves , and contempt of others we are imboldened to give offence , especially to them , in whom we behold any great infirmities , our saviour Christ proceeds to shew what great care the Lord takes for the meanest of his , and what account he makes of them , teaching them all moderation and compassion towards them in their infirmities . But least any should then say , if it be so , the best way is to let men alone in their sinnes , Christ prescribes a remedy for this evill , even that golden mean , v. 15. 16. 17. that we should neyther be bitter or rigorous towards them to cause them to scandalize , nor yet so remisse , as by connivency to flatter them in their sinnes .

For the occasion of the words , & the Argument taken from it , II. bycause the authour puts it downe , not as he proves it to be , but as it is thought , I passe it by as one of the thoughts spoken of by the wise man , in the Prov. and with it the scope , which he tells vs , is held to be a moderating of the Iewes passion for private iniuries offred , as being both together , & with them the exposition also in the 4. place , as being onely so many beggings of the quaestion in hand . The sum of which exposition is ( for to relate all Mr Bernards words were too tedious ) that if one Iew offred an other iniury , and would not satisfy him when he required it , eyther privately or with a witnes or two , the party iniured was to complayne to the Iewish Synedrion , and if that would not serve the turne , he might if he would proceed with him , and bring him before the Romayn power , and sue him at Caesars ●arr , as if he were a publican , or heathen . The reasons now to prove this interpretation follow . And the first is because Christ spake according no the tyme , as Mat. 5. 23. 26. It followes not that because Christ so spake that one tyme , and in that one place , that therefore , he so speaks here . What is lesse forceable ? 2. As Christ in that place spake both ecclesiastically and civily , as you expresly affirm , so , if you graunt in proportion , that he speakes here both civily for injuries , and ecclesiastically for sinnes , you speak truth enough at the least to overthrow your self .

Your second and third proofs taken from Peters vnderstanding of Christ , and Christs answer againe in the parable ( though it were no straunge thing for Peter to vnderstand that civily , which Christ spake spiritually , nor for Christ to reply according to the present vnderstanding ) do not shew that Christs speach is to be restreyned to personall iniuries : the contrary shall appeare by , and by : And the same answer may serve to the 4. and 6. Argument .

The fifth Argument is taken from the propriety of speach in the text : as first because Christ sayth , against thee , which ( say you ) shewes the offence to be private , &c. I graunt it , and that Christ there fetches his beginning from private , or rather from secret offences , and sinnes , which being knowen vnto one onely , may by one be remitted . Your second Argument is drawne from this terme brother , which shewes ( say you ) that Christ meant the Iewes , whom alone both the Iewes and disciples of Christ did account brethren . If Christ meant onely Iewes , what makes it matter , if the Iewes onely were brethren , that is of the Church ? but it is not true you say , that onely Iewes were accounted brethren by the disciples of Christ at that time : Christ shewes that they which beleeve , and obey his words , are his , and so his disciples * * Math. 12. 49. 50. brethren as did amongst others , † † Ioh. 4. 39. 41. 42. many of the Samaritans , which were no Iewes , long before this time . That these words thou hast gayned or wonne thy brother , shew an alienation of mind in the party that doth the iniurie , is idle , as the former . For the alienation of mind will rather be in him that hath received the injurie , which a man may do of ignorance , self love , covetousnes , or other by regards , without any change of his affection towards the person injured : the words in truth shew , that the lost sheep is found , the sinner converted . The next words are , let him be to thee , which , you tell vs , shewes such a Church as the offender might not regard , and so the plantiffe vnremyed might seek further . If you meane by these words might not regard , that he might lawfully not regard it , you erre ; if that he might be so wicked , as not to regard , it is no new thing for wicked persons to disregard the Church of Christ . Your addition of dismissing to further proceeding , is your owne , and so I leave it to you . And the reason why Christ sayth , let him be to thee is , bycause the brother spoken to was the first and principall in the accusation : as vnder the law , the accuser of the false Prophet must “ “ Deut. 13. 9. first haue his hand vpon him , whom the rest of the people must follow in putting him to death .

The last words Publican and Heathen do not declare that Christ speakes of the Iewes at that time eyther onely , or civily , but serve for other purposes , as I shall presently manifest , taking Arguments from these words , as from all the rest , to prove , that Christ here speakes of sinne , and of excommunication for sinne .

My first Reason I draw from the cohaerence , wherein I have formerly I. manifested , Christ speakes not of private injuries onely , but of all such scandalles , as are to be found in that streyt way to heaven : no nor of injuries at all as they hurt the outward man , but as they are sinnes , and hurt , and hinder the soul in the way of godlynes : and so by the consequence of cohaerence , ( if Christs words hang one vpon an other ) he speaks v. 15. 16. 17. of sinne and the carying of it .

2. I reason from the terme brother , which , since it apperteyned II. at this tyme from the disciples , to many , which might not be brought before the Iewish Synedrion , as to the beleeving Romaynes , Samaritans , and the like , cannot be meant as is pretended , but speaks of a religious fellowship to which any brother may be brought , of what country , or condition soever .

As the word ha●artáno , turned offend , is of generall signification by III. your own graunt , and so cannot be restreyned to that particular kind of offence : so is it most properly vsed for sinne , and that vsually by this Evangelist . Mat. 3. 6. & 9. 2. & 12. 31. and 26. 28. and which is specially to be observed , when Luke would speak of trespasses , or offences as sinnes against God , he vseth this word , but when in the same place he speaks of them , as of injuries against men , he vseth another word . Ch. 11. 4. And see how soundly Mr B. deales , when he should shew that the word turned offend is not meant of sinnes , but of injuries , he brings in foure principall writers varying ( as he sayth ) about the word : and yet the vnadvised man considers not , that all four of them , as he himself alledges them , vnderstand it of sinne , and not one of them of injuries , & so speak against him .

If Christ here spake of injuries , where he sayth , if he heare thee , thou IIII. hast wonne or gayned thy brother , he would haue sayd , thou hast wonne or gayned thy goods , or good name wherein he injuryed thee .

If these words be meant of injuries , and wrongs , then Christ V. commaunds his disciples not to suffer wrongs at their brethrens hands , but to deal with them in the order here prescribed , for Christ expresly commaunds to tell the Church : and so Christs doctrine , and Pauls teaching the * * 1 Cor. 6. 7. suffring of wrong should contradict the one the other .

By this exposition one Iew might account an other as an heathen , VI. which was vtterly vnlawfull , he might not refuse religious communion with him in the temple , into which no heathen might come ; he might not deny him a portion in the land of Canaan the type of the kingdome of heaven : he might not account or call him other then a brother , whatsoever he were , till the time came of the Iewes defraction or breaking off for vnbeleef . Act. 7. 2. & 22. 1. & 33. 1. Rom. 11. 17.

This interpretation confirmes a point of Anabaptistry , namely , VII . that it is not lawfull for brethren so remayning , to sue at Caesars barre , where it is most evident , that brethren alwayes might , and may , yea & ( such a case may fall out ) ought to sue , without any alienation of affection , or such heathenish thought one of another , as Mr B. would have Christ in this place to commend vnto them : for even these last words let him be to thee as an heathen and publican are a commaundement , as † † Mat. ● . 37. let your speach be yea , yea , nay , nay , & hundreds others delivered in the scriptures vnder the same form of words . And to conclude , Christ our Saviour in these words describes excommunication by the effects of it , which are , withdrawing from the brother obstinate in sinne , both in religious and civile fellowship and familiaritie , as the Iewes did withdraw both from the Heathens , and Publicans in both . Ioh. 4. 9. Act. 10. 3. & 31. 28. Luk. 15. 2. & 15. 10. 11. And this very phrase Paul most clearely expounds , when he directs the Church , 1 Cor. 5. 11. not to be commingled with obstinate offenders , nor to eat with them : this ever provided , that no excommunication or other act in religion whatsoever , may dissolve eyther civil , or naturall societie .

The next Reason is drawne from verse 18. where Christ ratifying VIII . in the hands of his Church this his power , speaks in expresse terms of binding , and loosing , not onely in earth , but in heaven also : which words , me thinks , alone should satisfie the conscience of any godly minded man , ( yea and stop the mouth of the most shameles ) that Christ speaks of sinne , and sin onely . Yet is Mr B. neyther satisfied , nor silent , but replyes , that binding , and loosing in this place is not properly , or onely to be vnderstood of Christs Ministers : but is allowed to private persons , and for this , pag. 223 he brings sundry reasons ▪ Consider , Reader , this severe censurer of Mr Smythes vnstablenes : Mr B. in his former book , pag. 95. will have this power of binding , and loosing spoken of in this place to be in the officers of the Ch● , two or three , and at no hand in private persons : and for this there he brings sundry reasons : in this his next book , this power is ●l●t●ed to two or three private persons , and must not be drawne to the Ministerie onely , and for this , he brings as many reasons . Observe further , the very sum of Mr B. answer is , that Christ speaks not here of binding , and loosing in the office of Ministerie . So we affirm , & that by two or three having this power cannot be meant two or three Ministers , considered severally from the body , which alone are not the Church for any publick administration , but the officers of the Church : but by two or three are meant the meanest communion or societie of saints whether with officers , or without officers . And is this a sufficient answering of an adversary to bring sundry reasons to prove the very thing , which he affirmes ?

Adde to all these , that where the injuries offred to Christs disciples , IX . and such as would respect his direction , were vsually for the profession of Christ , it had been a most idle course to have complayned eyther to the Iewish Synedrion , or Romish Magistracy , which would have added injurie to injurie .

Lastly , where Christ , v. 23. in his answer to Peters quaestion , X. makes the protasis or first part of his comparison the kingdom of heaven which is the Church he shewes plainely , that all the while he hath spoken of Church affaires , and the carying of them . And thus much to prove that the Lord Iesus the King of his Church hath left in this 18. of Math ▪ a rule , & order for the punishment of offenders in it . But this tedious matter is not yet ended . For Mr B. marshals in eight fresh reasons , to force all the reformed Churches in the world with vs , to give over this hold of Mat. 18. pag. 224. 225. 226. of this his last book : the best is they are of no great strength .

The first is a bare affirmation that the former exposition by me confuted is true .

His second Reason is bycause Christ hath erected no government in his Church ; ( for why he should adde by publick doctrine I see not , except he would insinuate , that Christ taught this point privately , and in a corner ) but for this brings he no one scripture or reason : as if his bare word were enough to stablish an Idoll King in his Church , without officers , or lawes . Where notwithstanding in his former book , pag 90. 91. 92. 93. he proves by many scriptures that Christ hath given officers for the government of his Church : which no man denyes , but himself .

In the third place he affirmes , that Christ by the Church meanes not the Iewish Synedrion , wherin I assent vnto his saying , for reason brings he none .

Touching the nature of the Churches government ( which he gropes at in the fourth place ) I have spoken els where .

The 5. Reason followeth , which comprehends vnder it many petty Reasons , and amongst other the 6 , 7 , and 8 in order : which save for the shew in the margent of 8. distinct numbred Reasons , might wel enough haue ben spared . The sum is that this 18. of Mat. is no perfect rule of discipline : the reasons are bycause neyther all sorts of sins are here brought in , nor all the parts of discipline here comprehended . And how do these things appear ? First bycause a man is here to proceed onely for trespasses , or as it is better turned for offences , against himself , but not for sinne against God , against the Magistrate , or against an other . But here you should have remembred Mr B. that * * 1 Ioh. ● . 4. sin , being the transgression of the law , is onely against God , to speak properly , and therefore David , notwithstanding his defiling of Bath sheba , and murdering of Vrijah confesseth that he had “ “ Ps. 51. 6. sinned against God onely . But as the same transgression is so committed , as man scandalizeth , or takes offence at it ▪ so it is a sinne against him : whether the deed done respect God or man , yea man or beast , publick or private person , a mans self , or others in the object : and so he may forgive it after the order prescribed by Christ . And where by way of exception you demaund how one man can remit trespasses done against an other ? it is true it cannot be , if by trespasses be meant personall injuries : but considering the same trespasses , as they are sinnes against God , at which a brother takes offence , so the brother offended may forgive them vpon the offenders repentance .

And asking how men can forgive rebellion against God , you seem to haue forgotten yourself : for in the very leaf next before going , you both graunt and prove that not onely Ministers by vertue of their office , but private persons also may bind and loose sinnes . The thing it self you grant , and for the manner of it , it is as they save , by manifesting , and making knowne outwardly salvation , and the forgivenes of sinnes .

To your third objection concerning the keeping secret of publick crymes against the Magistrate vpon the offenders repentance , you answer yourself , for if they be publick , or of publick nature , they may not be kept secret , neyther are they capable of the order of secret dealing in them .

And here falles into consideration your seventh Reason , which is , that if discipline be grounded vpon Mat. 18. then the Church must iudge in civil affaires , and enter vpon the bounds of the Magistrate .

And are you ignorant Mr B. that civil actions , as they draw scandalous sin , with them , may be censured ecclesiastically , as may also religious actions be punished civily by the Magistrate , which is the preserver of both tables , & so to punish all breaches of both , specially such as draw with them the violation of the positive lawes of kingdomes , or disturbance of common peace ? Take your own instance of murder . The Magistrate is to punish it civilly in all his subjects , whether the parties repent or no ; the Church is to censure it ecclesiastically in her members , yea though the Magistrate pardon or passe by it , except the parties delinquent repent , for then they are to be forgiven . And what vsurpation is here vpon the Magistracy ? you to suppress Gods ordinance do flatter the Magistrate , and accuse the innocent .

Next you except , that this of Mat. is a rule for sinnes private , and more secret , but not for publick and open sinne . You might as well say that the patterne of prayer prescribed by Christ , Mat. 6. is not perfect , nor a rule for private prayer , or for things concerning our selves onely , bycause it teacheth vs to say , Our father , & forgive vs our sinnes . But who knowes not , that generalls include their specialties vnder them ? The Lord Iesus in teaching his disciples to say , forgive vs our sinnes ioyntly , teacheth them in the same place to ask forgivenes eyther of their own sinnes , or the sinnes of others severally , as occasion serves : so in teaching here all the degrees of admonition ioyntly , he implyes also the dealing in any one of them severally , if there be occasion . And this exposition of Mr B. can I not fitlyer resemble then to the practise of some silly pursevant , that , being sent to attach some traytour , or other malefactour dwelling in Barwick , and so to bring him to the Court , if he should meet the party by the way , would refuse to medle with him , and would say , that he was sent to Barw : to fetch him , and would eyther bring him from thence , or would let him alone . And it seems , if Mr B. might construe his commission , he would so advise him . But would not common sense teach a man , that the nearer he met with the party he ●ought , the more labour were spared , and that he were to apprehend him where he found him ? So where Christ sends his disciples to deal with sinne a farre off , as it were , and in the first , & vtmost degree , but if it be come nearer , and be found in the 2. or 3. degree , it is to be taken where it is found . If it be secret , and yet rest betwixt the brother offending , & offended , it must there be dealt with : if it become nearer the court , and be wrought before two , or three , or more , it must there , and in that order be vndertaken , the first degree is over , and that labour spared : if it be of publick nature , or publikly committed , the two former degrees are past , and the labour in them spared : the sin must be dealt with accordingly . And the Church eyther by information from any brother or brethren , or by immediate notice taken , may convent or call for the offender , that he which sinned publikly , may publiquely be rebuled . And this may serue for answer to the 8. and last exception .

Now for allowing of the plaintiffe to seek further remedy , & of the referring of the party obstinate vnto him , which is the sum of the sixt Arg: as also of these terms , let him be to thee as an heathen and publican , which is an other exception , together with that consideration , that the party offended is the principall in all the degrees of proceeding , I have formerly spoken in the exposition of the words , to which the reader is to look back for answer , if such idle conjecture give any cause of doubt to any . One onely blow more is to be warded , by which Mr B. would disable this 18. of Math. from being any rule of discipline , and that is , bycause it provides not for suspension , we grant it doth not : and you your self half graunt , that no such thing is to be found in the new testament . And what reason haue you , or any other man to put vs to prove your corruptions and devises , which you know we neyther practise , nor allow of ?

These things thus ended , and the received exposition of Math. 18. confirmed , viz: that Christ in it prescribes a rule of discipline in the Church , I come to your reasons Mr B. in your first book by which you would prove that this Church is the chief governours .

The first whereof is , that Christ could not be understood eyther then , Mr. B. or now , except he spake as the practise was then , or took some order afterward , and so you go about to prove vnto vs , that the chief governours onely had authoritie to excommunicate , both in the synagogues and in the Church of Corinth .

To this I answer sundry things . First it followes not , that Answ. Christ was not then , or cannot now be vnderstood , except he spake with some such reference as you note . The words are so plaine , the order so equall , the state of the Church vnder the new testament ( which is not , as before , nationall , but a particular assembly ) so capable of such an ordinance , as that laying aside prejudice , and politick respects , there can be nothing more playnely spoken or more easily vnderstood .

2. It doth no way prejudice the exposition we give , though the disciples for the present vnderstood it not : they vnderstood litle , no not touching the death and resurrection of Christ , or nature of his kingdome when they were at the first taught them , till eyther by their own experience , or by the extraordinary gift of the Holy Ghost , or some other meanes , the thinges formerly taught them were brought to their remembrance . Mat. 16. 21. 22. & 20. 20. 21. Mark . 16. 14. Luk. 24. 20. 21. 22 — 25. 26. -44. And it is expressely affirmed , Act. 1. 3. that the Lord Iesus did the 40. dayes before his ascension instruct them in such things as concerned the kingdome of God , which is the Church .

The next thing to be considered is your proofs from scripture , that the power of excommunication was in the chief governours . But the places proove no such thing . Ioh. 9. 22. and 12. 42. & 16. ● ▪ do onely prove an agreement amongst the Iewes , that such as confessed Christ should be dissynagogued : but that this authority was onely in the hands of the chief governours , cannot be thence collected . I know there was at Ierusalem a representative Church for the whole nation , of which we shall speak hereafter , but that there was such a Church representative in every synagogue , furnished with such power can never be concluded from these scriptures . They rather in deed prove the contrarie . It is sayd Ioh. 9. 22. that the Iewes had ordeyned , that such as confessed Christ , should be dissynagogued : which words do rather interest the people in the busines then otherwise . If you think , that because there is mention made of † † vers. 13. 15. 16. & Ch. 12. 42. the Pharisees , the officers onely are meant , you are deceived . For Pharisaism amongst the Iewes was not an office , but a sect . There were no other lawfull officers ecclesiasticall amongst them , but “ “ Lev. 8. Num. 3. 12. 13. & 8. 14. 16. 17. the Levites whom the Lord took from among the children of Israel in stead of the first borne for his service : but many of the Pharisees , were of other tribes . Phil. 3. 5.

Besides , I see no sufficient reason to perswade me , that this casting out of the synagogue was any ecclesiasticall censure , but rather a violent rejection or extrusion out of the place : as nothing was more common then such tumultuous outrages in those dayes . And the very same word that Iohn vseth , ch. 9. ver. 35. Luke vseth ch. 4. 28. 29. for the violent extrusion of Christ himself by the Iewes , vpon the like occasion , both out of the synagogue , and citie . The same also doth Iohn himself vse , ch. 2. 15. speaking of Christs casting 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 the mony chaungers out of the temple . And yet neyther the NAZARITES excommunicate CHRIST , nor CHRIST the mony-chaungers .

But if there were amongst the Iewes at that tyme any such distinct ordinance of excommunication ecclesiasticall , it was a Iewish devise , ( I am perswaded ) and without ground of the scriptures : and that for these causes .

First every blasphemer , or worshipper of vnknowen Gods I. was by the law of Moses to dy the death without redemption , that so evill might be put from Israell , Exod. 22. 20. Lev. 24. 16. Deut. 13. 6. 7. 8. 9 — 12. 13. 14. 15.

And so the Iewes reputing this blind man such a one , were to put him to death : but being deprived of this power by the Romayns , through the just judgement of God for their sinnes , they devised this other course of dissynagogueing , or excommunicating offendours by them so deemed . II.

Secondly the severall synagogues were not distinct Churches , but members of that one nationall Church , which was both representatively , and originally at Ierusalem : neyther could any of them excommunicate out of the temple , which was a higher communion then theirs : and so it is very probable that Christ found this blind man afterwards in the temple , Ioh. 9. 38. compared with 10. 22. into which ( had he been ecclesiastically excommunicated ) he might not haue entred : neyther hangs it together , that any rejected in the communion of the synagogue , might be received in the communion of the temple . III.

3. The Lord did chuse the whole nation of the Iewes to be his peculiar people , and took all and every one of them into covenant with himself , gave them the Land of Canaan for an inheritance , as a type of the kingdome of heaven , erected a policy over them , civil , & ecclesiasticall , in the judiciall & ceremonial law , called the old testament , making the same persons & all of them , though in divers respects the Church , & the common wealth , whervpon the Church is also called the common wealth of Israel . Exod. 19. 5. 6. Lev. 20. 24. 26. Deut. 4. 6. 7. & 29. 2. 10. 11. 12. Ios. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Rom. 9. 4 Ephe. 2. 12. Hence it followeth , that except a man might enjoy one type of the kingdom of heaven , as was the Land of Canaan , & not an other , as was the temple , or tabernacle , Heb. 9. 24. except he might be vnder one part of the old testament , or covenant of God , namely the judicial law for the common wealth , and not vnder an other part of it , the ceremoniall law for the Church , it cannot be that any such ordinance as excommunication could be vsed lawfully in the Iewish Church .

Yet do I not deny but that the lepers & other persons legally vnclean were for a time debarred from the communion of the Church , and from all the sacrifices , and services thereof , but this inhibition say I , was no way in the nature of an excommunication .

For first it was for ceremoniall vncleannes , issues , leprosy , and the like , which were not sinnes , but punishments of sinnes at the most .

2. It did not onely exclude men from the communion of the Church , but of the common wealth also , and the affaires thereof .

3. It did not agree in the end with excommunication . The end of excommunication is the repentance of the party excommunicated , 1 Cor. 5. 5. but the person legally vncleane , whether he repented , or no , was to bear his shame till the date of his time were out , yea to his dying day , if his disease continued so long . Lev. 12. & 13. & 14. Num. 5. 2. 3. 4. & 12. 10. 14. 2 Chron. 26. 19. 20. 21. A type I confesse it was of excommunication , as legall pollution was of morall sin : whence I also conclude that the type , and thing typed outwardly could not both stand together .

But here it wil be demaunded of me , did not the Lord require in the Iewish Church true , morall , and spirituall holynes also ? God forbid I should run vpon that desperate rock of Anabaptistry . The Levit. 11. 44. 1 Pet. 1. 15. 16. Lord was holy then as now , and so would have his people be then holy , as now . Yea so jealous was the Lord over his people that he took order then as well as now , that no sin should be suffered vnreformed , no obstinate sinner vncut off . Some sinnes were of that nature , as he that committed them was by the law to dy the death without pardon , or partialitie , & so to be cut off from the Lords people . Lev. 20. And when other sinnes not of that nature were committed , whether of ignorance , or otherwise , the party offending was to be told , and admonished of his offence , and so to manifest his repentance by the confefs●on of his sinne , and profession of his faith in the mediatour , by offering his appointed sacrifice , and so his sinne was forgiven him . Lev. 4. 13. 14. 15. — 20. 21 23 — 26. 27. 28. 35. & 5. 1. 3. 4. 5. 6. — 10. & 19. 17. Num. 5. 6. 7. But now if there were with the least sinne joyned obstinacy , or presumption , the party so sinning was to be cut off from his people , Num. 15. 30. 31. 32. 34. 36. Deut. 17. 12. and for this cause the Iewes were so oft admonished to * * Lev. 20. 14. Deut. 17. 12. & 19. 19. destroy the workers of wickednes , that there should be no wickednes amongst them , that they should take away evil from Israel , and from forth of the middest of them . And vpon this ground doth David as the cheif Magistrate , whom this busines cheifly concerned , vow his service vnto God in this kind , and that he would even * * Psal. 101. ● . betimes destroy all the wicked of the land , that he might cut off the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord : though he afterwards fayled in the execution of this dutie . And to the very same end did “ “ 1 Chron. 15. 12. 13. 14. 15. Asa the King with all the people enter a covenant of oath , to seek the Lord God of their fathers , with all their hart , and with all their soule : and that whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be slaine , whether be were small or great , man or woman .

To end this point , vpon which I have insisted something the longer for sundry purposes in their place to be manifested : as the Lord vsually conveyed spirituall both blessings , and curses vnto the Iewes vnder those which were bodily , so here was the spirituall judgement of excommunication comprehended vnder this bodily judgement of death , by which the party delinquent was wholy cut off visibly from the Lords covenant , and people .

That which you adde of Cloes complaint made to the cheif governour the Apostle , is true , but misapplyed . You make an erroneous collection from it out of your owne lamentable experience . Bycause your Church of Worxsop can reforme no abuse within it self , but must complain to your Lords grace of York ▪ or his substitute , therfore you imagine the Church of Corinth to have been in the same bondage , wherein you are : and Cloe to have complayned to Pauls court . But it is playn Mr B. to them that do not shut their eyes , and harden their hearts against the truth : that the Church of Corinth was planted in the liberty of the gospell , and had this power of Christ to reform abuses , and to excommunicate offenders , without sending to Paul from one part of the world to an other , and that the Corinthians Ch. 5. are reproved for fayling in this duty . And had Mr B. but taken this course in his writing , that two of his leaves had hung together , he might have spared this objection , considering what he writ , pag. 92. that the same persons have the power to preach , administer the sacraments , and excommunicate : for that he meanes by government . Now he cannot be ignorant , that both the power , and practise of preaching , & administring the sacraments were in the Church of Corinth in Pauls absence . 1 Cor. 11. 20. & 14. 1. &c. And so by your own graunt the Church of Corinth had power to excommunicate though Paul were absent . Wherevpon I also infer it was their sinne not to vse it .

Now for the practise of Cloes family , wee know Paul was an Apostle , and generall Officer , and so intitled to the affaires in all the Churches in the world : wherevpon Cloe complayned vnto him of such abuses in the Church as were both of publick nature , and which the Church would not reform : otherwise it had been both slaunder , and solly to have complayned . And what corne doth this winde shake ? Do wee make it vnlawfull for any member to informe the officers of publique enormities in the Church , that they according to their places might see reformation of them ? Yea if the Pastor , or other principall Officer of the Church were absent necessarily , we doubt not but it were the duety of any brother , or brethren in the like case , to entreat their help for the direction , reproofe , and reformation of the Church , for any publick enormities there done , or suffered : who might also judge , and condemne the same themselves , and for their parts , exhorting , and directing the whole Church in their publique meeting to do the like as Paul did .

Your three next Arguments to prove that tell the Church , is tell the Officers , are idle descants vpon the formes , and phrases of speach scraped together to fill your book with .

First you affirm that Christ having spoken in the third Mr. B. person tell the Church when he comes to ratify the authoritie to be committed to his Apostles , turnes his speach to the 2. person , not saying , what it , but what you shall bind , and loose , &c.

In so saying you give the cause , though you presently eat vp Answ. your own graunt . For you affirm , that by the Church ▪ ver. 17. is meant the whole body , of which Christ speaks in the third person : and what say wee more ? But where you adde that the authoritie is not given till the 18. vers. and that then Christ turns his speach to his Apostles , it is your own devised glosse .

For first it is evident , that Christ establisheth the power of binding , and loosing in the hands of the Church , speaking in the 3. person , v. 17. & that so firmely , as what brother soever refuseth to heare her voice is to be expelled from all religious communion . Vnto this the 18. v. is added partly for explanation , and partly for confirmation . For where as the party admonished might say with himself , well , if the Church disclaim mee , I shall disclaym it , if it condemn me , I shall condemn it again , the Lord doth here back the Churches censures for her incouragement , and for the terrour of the refractary , despising her voice , and that vnder a contestation , that what she bindes , and looseth vpon earth , ( namely after his will ) he also will bind , and loose in heaven .

And for the change of persons in the 17. and 18 , verses , it is merely grammaticall , and not naturall . It is common with the Holy Ghost , sometimes for elegancy , sometimes for explication , sometimes for further inforcement of the same thing , to , and vpon the same persons , thus to vary the phrase of speach in the first , second , or third person grammatically , as the reader may take a tast in these particulars . Psal. 75. 1. Is. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. &c. Math. 5. 10. 11. 12. &c. and in this very Chapt. v. 7. 8. Rom. 6. 14. 15. 16. & 8. 4. 5. 12. 13. &c.

Your 3. Reason , that , bycause Christ speakes of a few , two , or three Mr. B. gathered together , therefore he meanes the officers of the Church , and not all the body , is of no force , if the body consist but of two , or three , as Answ. it comes to passe , where Churches are raysed in persecution , as the most true Churches are . Yet if Christ do speak of two or three officers of a Church , gathered together in his name , he speaks against you , where all the power of the keyes over many 1000. Churches are in the hands of two Arch-Prelates , and from them delegated and derived to their severall vnderlings .

But the truth is , that gratious promise , which Christ here layes downe , for the comfort of all his saints , you do engrosse into the hands of a few Elders . You might aswel affirme , that onely two or three officers gathered together , have a promise to be heard in their prayers , and not a communion of two or three brethren , for Christ , v. 19. 20. speakes principally , and expressely of prayer , though with reference to the binding , and loosing of sin , which ( as all other ordinances ) are sanctified by prayer . The very scope of the place , and reason of the speach is this . The Lord Iesus had v : 18. enfranchised the Church , with a most excellent , and honourable priveledge : now the disciples did already see with their own eyes , and were more fully taught by their Maister , that the Church should arise from small , and base beginnings , and that it was also , by reason of persequution , subject to great dissipation . Math. 7. 14. & 10. 17. 18. 22. 23. & 13. 31. 32. least therefore their harts should be discouraged , and they , or others , driven into suspition , that the Lord would any way neglect them , or his promise towards them for their paucity , and meannes , he most gratiously prevents , and frees them from that jealousy , & telles them and all others , for their comfort , that though the Church , or assembly consist but of two or three ( as such beginnings the true Church of God had and have , ( though your English Church begum with a kingdome in a day ) Act. 16. 14. 15. & 17. 34. & 19. 7. yet that should no way diminish their power , or prejudice the accomplishment of his promise . And the reason hath been formerly rendred , bycause this power for binding , & loosing , being given to the fayth of Peter , depends not vpon the order of office , multitude of people , or dignity of person , but merely vpon the word of God . And hence is it that Christ thus gratiously descends even to two or three , wheresoever assembled in his name , yea though it be in a Cave , or Den of the earth : of which most gratious and necessary priveledge you would bereave them .

Now in your 4. Reason out of v. 19 , you do most ignorantly erre in the grammaticall construction : for you make a change of the person agayne , where there is no change at all . Christ speakes onely in the third person , as the originall makes it plaine , though the English tongue do not so distinctly manifest it to an ignorant man . Christ sayth not , whatsoever you two shall agree of , shal be given to them , that is to the Church , but whatsover two of you shall agree of , or consent in , they two that so agree shall obteyne it of God . Which words ( Mr B. ) you do most vnsufferably pervert , to the seducing of the ignorant : as if Christ had sayd , if two , or three of you officers , or you two or three officers , shall agree together of a thing , whatsoever they , that is the Church shall desire , namely of the Officers ( for so you expound the words ) it shal be given them . where it is most evident that they which are to agree vpon the thing , they are to ask it , and that of God , who will give it them . And where the scripture sayth , that the brother offended ( speaking indefinitely of any brother , and so of the Officers themselves ) must complayn to the Church , M B. on the contrary ( as if he would even beard the Lord Iesus ) tells vs the Church must complayn to the Officers .

Your 5. Reason followes with many litle ones in the womb of it , which you bring forth in order , to prove , that Christ speakes here figuratively , and that by the Church he means the governours .

The first is . It agrees with the practise of the Iewish Church from whence Mr B. it is held , that the manner of governing in the Church is fetched .

And is this the necessary proof you speak of ? whatsoever is so Answ. held , is so in truth . And yet in your second book , as hath been shewed , you bring in sundry men holding contrary things , as if contraries could be true . Well , I confesse it is so held , and that by many , with whom I would gladly consent , if the scriptures taught me not to hold otherwise . It had been good here the authour had shewed vs , what the government of the Iewish Church was , and not thus sleightily to have passed over things of this moment . For the purpose in hand thus much .

The Church of the Iewes was a nationall Church , † † Exod. 19. 5. 6. Lev. 20. 24. 26. Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. the Lord separating vnto himself the whole nation , from all other nations , to be his people , and that he might be their God . And as one of the Lords ordinances suits with an other , and depends vpon an other , so from this nationall Church doth necessarily arise a representative Church . For where communion together in the holy things of God is an act , and operation of the Church , for the mutuall aedification of the parts , and that it was impossible , that the whole body of a nation should in the intire , simple , proper , or personall parts , & members communicate togeither , the Lord so ordered and disposed , that that communion should be had , and exercised after a manner , and in a sort , and that was by way of representation .

And to this end the Lord made choise of one speciall place in the land , which he gave his people to possesse , at the first alterable , but afterwards constant , and vnchangeable , where he would haue his tabernacle pitched , and his temple built , where he would put his name , and dwell , and which he would honour above all places , with his glory and presence .

There was also one onely tabernacle or temple , one high Preist , one altar , vnto which the whole nationall Church had reference , † † Deut. 12. 5. 6. 7. thither must they bring all their sacrifices , tithes and offrings , “ “ Deut. 17. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. thither were causes Ios. 18. 1. 1 King . 8. 10. 29. hard , and difficult to be brought , that the people might be shewed the sentence of iudgement , informed , and taught the law , by the Preists of the Levites . * * Exod. 29. 38. 39. 4● . 43. 45. There was the dayly sacrifice offred for the whole nationall Church , morning and evening continually , there the Lord appointed with the children of Israel , sanctifying the place with his glory , binding himself by his promise to dwell amongst them , and to be their God . There was 2 Chro. 19. 8. ● . 10. 11. “ “ Exo. 28. 9. 10. 11. 12 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 2● . 29. 30. the high Preist to cary graven vpon two onix stones , as the stones of remembrance of the children of Israel , put vpon the shoulders of the Eph●d , the names of the children of Israel according to their tribes , for a remembrance : and againe , the names of the children of Israel , according to their twelve tribes i● twelve stones set vpon the breast plate of iudgement vpon his heart , for a remembrance continually before the Lord . There was also † † Exo. 25. 30. Lev. 24 5. 6. 7. 8. set vpon the pure table of Shittim wood in the tabernacle , twelve loaves of shew bread continually before the Lord , according to the twelve tribes of Israel for a remembrance .

Now all these were ordinances representative , in a Church representative : and other Church representative amongst the Iewes , I neyther know , not acknowledge . And the ground of this representation was the necessary absence of the people represented . Necessary , I call it , whether we respect the ordinance of God inhibiting the peoples entrance into the place , where the most of these representations were made , or whether wee respect the impossibility of the whole nations ordinarie assembling , and communicating together .

And herevpon it comes to passe , that all other Churches since , so framed , and of such qualitie , as that they cannot ordinarily assemble together , & keep communion , haue also as their images , or shadowes , their Churches representative . The catholik visible Ch: of Rome hath her visible Ch: representative , the Popes Consistory , or Colledge of Cardinalls , or the generall Council gathered by his authority . The nationall Church of Engl: , hath her nationall Church representative , the Convocation house : as have also the Provinciall and Diocesan Churches their representations , the Archbishops , & Bishops Consistories . But as the bodyes of these Churches are monstrous devises of mens braynes , ( there being no other Churches vnder the new testament but particular assemblies ) so are their shadowes , ( the Churches representative ) mere devises of devises .

And to apply this nearer the purpose . Since the Church now consisteth not of one nation severed from all other nations , but of particular assemblies of faithfull people , separated from all other assemblies , which like so many distinct † † Act ●0 . 28. 1 Pet. 5 2. 3. 1 Cor. ● . 4. & 11. 17. 20. & 14. 23. flockes , do ordinarily heard together , and so communicate in the word , prayer , sacraments , & censures , and that where the Church grew sometimes greater by the suddayne , and extraordinary conversion of more then could well so assemble , then was there presently a dispersion of the former and a multiplication of more particular assemblies . Act. 2. 41. 42. & 8. 4. 5. 6. & 9. 31. & 14. 23. 27. & 15. 22. 30. Rev. 1. 4. 11. this rases the foundation of all representative Churches , as eyther politick devises , or at the best , praeposterous imitations of the Iewish Church , and polity . For ( as I have formerly sayd , and common sense teacheth it ) the foundation of representation is the necessary absence of that which is represented , whether person , or thing . And so since there is no necessity , that the body of a particular Church should be absent , but on the contrary a necessity , that the same be present , at and in all the publick administrations , and actions of communion in the Churches holy things , we do therefore disclaym as supersluous , and feyned , all representative Churches whatsoever .

Secondly if the outward form of Church government now be fetched from the Iewish Church , then as in that representative Ch: there was an high Preist set over the rest , in whose person , and administration , the representation of the whole Church was most eminent , so must there now be also in this representative Church one officer over the rest , and as it were their high Preist . And so the catholik representative Church of Rome hath an vniversall Bishop the Pope over it : the Nationall , Provinciall , and Diocesan , Churches representative , Nationall , Provinciall , and Diocesan Bishops over them . And so in all equitie should the Synodes , and Praesbyteries , accounting themselves properly Churches , or bodies Ecclesiasticall , have their Officers over them : and so there should alwayes be one , or more Ministers over the Church of Ministers , and whose charge these Synodes and Presbyteries should be , to be fed by them . And the truth is , this reason fetcht from the Iewish Church , as it far better fitts the Praelates in England , then the Consistorians , so fitts it the Papists better then eyther of them both : for there is one Bishop over the catholick visible Church ( as they speak ) as there was one high Preist over the whole visible Ch: then .

Adde vnto this , that if the representative Church at Ierusalem be a pattern for a representative Church vnto vs , then as there not onely hard causes were opened , & declared according to the law , but also the sacrifices offred , and most solemne services performed day , by day , without the presence of the body of the Church , so now in this our representative Church consisting of the officers onely , there must be not onely the vse of the keyes for admonition , and excommunication , but there must also be the preaching of the word , and ministring of the sacraments , ( which are our most solemn services ) whether the people be present or no. And to imagine a power of Christ in the Church of the officers for the vse of one solemne ordinance out of the communion of the body , & not for an other , hath no ground from the Iewish Church .

Lastly , to fetch the form of goverment for the Church now from the Iewish Church , were to revive † † Heb. 8. 13 the old testament , which so long since , is abrogated , and disanulled . For to speak properly the old testament is nothing but that externall policy instituted by Moses in the Iudiciall & ceremoniall law , for the dispensation of the typicall kingdome and Preisthood of Christ , shadowed out by that of “ “ Heb. 5. & 6. Melchisedeck King and Preist : repraesented by the administrations of Moses , and Aaron : and after continued in the * * Num. 18 Preisthood of the Levites , & † † 2 Chron. 13. 5. kingdome of David & his sonnes , till Christ , in the dispensation of those worldly , and carnall ordinances . Now as the judicialls , ( which were for the government of the Congregation civily ) are dead , and do not bind any civil polity , save as they were of common equity : so are the ceremonialls , ( which were for the Ch: polity ) deadly : and may not be revived by any Church , save as any of them have new life given by Christ . For though we now be made “ “ Eph. 2. 12. and 3. 6. citizens of the common wealth of Israell , and one body with them , yet is that in respect of * * Gen. 17. 7. Gal. 3. 17. the everlasting covenant confirmed of God with Abraham through Christ . ( I wil be thy God , and the God of thy seed ) four hundred and thirty yeares before the law was given , or the polity and government of the lewish , eyther church , or common wealth , in it established : and as we are the sonnes , and daughters of Abraham by faith , but no way in respect of those Iewish ordinances in in the old testament , or the order of dispensing them . And yet if it were graunted which you would have , that the Church government now is to be patterned by the goverment of the Iewish church , then it would nothing avayle you for the purpose in hand . For the church officers the Preists , and Levites vnto whom † † Numb. 3. 67. the charge of the whole Congregation , for the service of the tabernacle did apperteyne , had no authority by the order of their office to inflict any censure spiritually vpon the people , as had the civil Magistrates to punish them bodily . The Preists and Levites were onely to enterpret the law , and in cases extraordinarily difficult , to find out the estate of the person , or thing , and to shew what in such a case the law required : and if you will say , they gave judgement it was none otherwise , then as a Physitian gives ●●dgement of the body , or state of his patient by his faculty , or skill in his art : but to sit vpon them formally in judgement , & ecclesiastically to punish them , that they might not do : neyther are they called in the scriptures “ “ Deut. 17 9. 2 Chron. 1● . 5. 6. judges , as the civil Magistrates are . Yea the scriptures do make a playne difference where the civil Elders are to * * Ex. 18. 13. Ruth . 4. 2. sit , and iudge the people , but the † † Numb. 16 9. 2. 2 Chron. 35. 3. Preists to stand before the Congregation , and to minister vnto them . Now before we passe over this busines in hand , I deem it not amisse vpon this occasion , to observe a few things by way of answer to a scripture vsually brought out for the foundation of these representative churches and their power , and especially for these Nationall , and Provinciall Synodes , & the like . And the scripture is , Act. 15.

1. There was no synode , or assembly of the Officers of divers Churches , but onely certayne messengers sent from the church of Antiochia , to the Church of Ierusalem about the controversy there specified .

2. Neyther the Church of Antioch which sent the messengers , nor the church at Ierusalem whether they were sent , was a representative church , consisting of Officers , much lesse of chief officers onely . For first it is sayd , ver. 1. 2. that the brethren of Antiochia , which Ch. 14. 17. are called the church , and v. 28. the disciples , and in this chapt. v. 3. the church , and v. 23. the brethren sent their messengers with Paul and Barnabas to Ierusalem : and it will most evidently appeare by whom the message was sent , if we consider to whom the answer was returned . ver. 30. where the messengers did not deliver the Epistle till they had assembled the multitude . And 2. it is apparant that at Ierusalem , not onely the cheif officers the Apostles , yea and inferiour officers the Elders also , met together about it , and sent answer , but the brethren with them . v. 4. 12. 22.

And these scriptures alone in this chapt. are sufficient to chalendge the liberty of the brethren in the discussing of publique controversies out of the hands of all officers whatsoever .

3. Paul and Barnabas , went not to Ierusalem eyther for authority , or direction ; for being Apostles , they had both equall immediate authority from Christ , and equall infallible direction from the holy Ghost , with the rest of the Apostles . Onely they went for countenance of the truth in respect of men , and for the stopping the mouthes of such deceivers as pretended they were sent by the Apostles . v. 24.

4. Their decrees were absolutely Apostolicall , and divine scripture by infallible direction from the holy Ghost , and so imposed vpon all other Churches of the Gentiles , though they had ●o delegates there , ver. 23. 28. Ch. 16. 4.

But it wil be sayd , may not the officers of one , or many Churches meet together to discusse & consider of matters for the good of the Church , or Churches , and so be called a Church , Synode , or the like ? I deny it not , so they infringe no order of Christ , or liberty of the brethren , they may so do , and so be called in a sense : but the quaestion now is about such a Church , as is gathered for the publick administration of admonition , excommunication , & other the like ordinances of Christ , which Mr B. in his first book graunts “ “ pag. 92. must be done with the knowledge of the body of the Church , & and in the open assembly .

And here falls into handling certayn borrowed stuffe † † pag. 178. in Mr B. 2. book about this matter .

As first , that Paul called the Elders of Ephesus , and conferred with them Mr B. without the people , Act. 20. 27. which who denyes , but they which set vp a Lord Bishop to rule alone without advising with eyther Answer . the inferiour Ministers , or people .

But that , which he addes in the next place , hath almost as many errours , as wordes in it , and that is , that the Elders sate in a Consistory , with Iames their Bishop at Ierusalem , without the people , and did decree a matter , without asking their voice . Act. 21. 18.

First you erre in calling it a Consistory , or juditiall Court , for the justification of your own : where it was onely an occasionall meeting for advise . 2. in making Iames a Bishop whom Christ had made an Apostle . The Elders were Bishops , Act. 20. 17. 28. Phil. 1. 1. Tit. 1. ● . 7. And so if you would haue held any proportion you should haue made Iames an Archbishop . 3. that you make him their Bishop , where Bishops , or Overseers , are set over the flock , not over the Ministers , Act. 20. 28. 4. And most ignorantly , where you will have Iames & the Elders to make a decree for Paul , as if the Elders had authority over the Apostles ( for that is the drift of your argument ) or one Apostle over an other : or as if Paul were subject to Consistorian decrees . It was onely a matter of advise , that passed amongst them , as all men may see .

An other observation Mr B. hath in this place , as idle as the rest : and that is , that the Elders are superiour vnto the people , bycause they are set before them , Act. 15. 22. 23. where if the bould and inconsiderate man had but read the 4. verse of the same Chapt: he should have seen the people set before the Officers : the very same alteration appeares ver. 2. & 12. so if his argument was of force , two contraries might be true , which is a repugnancy in nature . Yet deny we not but the officers are above the Church , in respect of the word , and doctrine they minister , and teach : but we deny the order of Elders to be superiour to the order of saynts , since it is not an order of Maystership , but of service .

But I will from this place , Mr B. ( if I be not much deceived ) take a better argument to prove the contrary to that you say , namely , that the Church is an order superiour vnto the officers . And the reason is , bycause the Churches have authority to send the officers , as their messengers , v. 2. 3. 22. 32. Now they that send are ever in that respect , superiour vnto them that are sent .

That which you adde in the last place , to wit , that the Apostles & Elders did acquaint the people with the matter , who consented , but had no authority to make the authority of the Apostles , & Elders nothing , is drawn out of the same cask with the former . In which speach , there is imperfection , contradiction , & ignorance . Imperfection , wher you give the people no further liberty then to consent to the matter , being made acquainted with it . For in that it is sayd , ver: 12. that the multitude kept silence when they had heard Iames speak truly , & sufficiently , and that they held their peace , v : 13. when they heard Paul and Barnabas speak , it shewes they had also liberty of speaking in the matter , had they seen cause . Contradictions you speak , in affirming the people were to consent to the Elders , & yet in denying they could praejudice their power , & authority . For howsoever this be true for the Apostles , which were infallibly , and immediately directed by the H. Ghost in their determinations , vnto which all were bound absolutely to condiscend , as are all the saynts at the last day to the judgement to be passed by Christ vpon the reprobate , yet is it not so for the Elders ordinary , then , or now , which may erre , and be deceived . And so where there is liberty of consenting conditionally , and if men see cause , there is also liberty of dissenting , vpon the contrary occasion : and so this dissent of the body must eyther hinder the action , or els it is a mere mockery . Ignorance it is , in the last place to make equall the authority of the Apostles , and Elders in this decree . For the decree was merely Apostolicall ( to speak properly ) and framed by infallible direction of the Holy Ghost , ( which the Elders in themselves considered had not ) as appeareth , ver. 28. and was , and is , in the right end , and equitie of it , a part of the canonicall scriptures , in penning whereof the Elders had no hand : and so is imposed vpon the Churches of the Gentiles every where , ver. 23. with whom the Elders of Ierusalem had nothing to do , but onely the Apostles , which were generall men : so that neyther brethren , nor Elders did more then consent to the decree it self , & that necessarily , as vnto a divine oracle .

These things thus ended , I return to the Arguments in Mr Ber. first book to prove by the Ch: to be meant the cheif Officers .

The second and third whereof being but needles boasts of his former doings , I passe over .

The 4 : is , for order sake and to prevent confusion , for that which is all Mr B. mens , is no m●ns : wherevpon aryseth great carelesnes in seing vnto such things , as are all mens in publique : and by it pride , yea therevpon contention ensueth .

Wee do stand for the order of Christ against the confusion of Ans. Antichrist in Babylon , which is vncapable of all right order : as we also enjoy the right disposition of things , and persons in their places , which is order . And if you call it confusion in an assembly , wherein all have equall power , and voice in the determining of things , some one or few going before the rest in guiding , and directing them , you do ( though you consider it not ) strike through our sides , the highest and honourablest court or assembly in the whole land , and which is the rule and fountayn of all the rest , and that is , the court of Parliament , where all things passe by voices , all , or the most : the proloquutor being onely chosen to propound , and moderate actions : which is also the order in generall councils , and ( if I be not deceived ) in your representative Church of Engl ▪ your Convocation house . Which order also is observed for the mayn determinations to be made in the priveledged cities & corporations in the kingdom . And what greater confusion is there like to be in the determining of other Church affaires by voyces , then in the calling of ministers ? the order of whose † † ●●t ▪ 14. 2● . and 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. election by the suffrages of the multitude , guided by the officers , was both established by the Apostles , & continued in the primitive Churches , many hundred yeares .

Now the inconveniency of carelesnes in all , where matters concerne all , is a strange allegation . Me thinks it should make all more carefull , the matters especially being of conscience , and the persons consionable , whom they concern . And I see not but you might as well say , it makes all men careles of the knowledge of God , and Christ , and of salvation , and of the scriptures , bycause these things concern all . And why do you not with the Papists deprive the multitude of the vse of the scriptures in the mother tongue , that you the carefull Clergy alone might look vnto them ? But what though this inconveniency do arise sometimes , through mans corruption , it should be otherwise : and wee must ever consider of the nature of Gods ordinances in their right vse , & when men are exercised in them as they should be , and not according to ●rayle mans aberration , and abuse in , and of the same : and if men be sometimes careles of their duties , we must not therefore deprive them of their rights .

And in this plea , Mr Bernard , me thinks you very naturally resemble the mighty oppressours in the world , which vnder this very pretence , do inclose all the commons of their poore neighbours : for common things ( say they ) are commonly neglected : & they can make one aker of ground , thus inclosed , worth two in common . But if the Lord denounce such heavy judgments against the inclosers of earthly things , Is. 5. 8. 9. what wil be the end of those spirituall ingrossers and oppressours , if they repent not ? And for pride and contention , as they and a thowsand worse evils could not but fall out in a Church gathered as yours is , of all the prophane rable in a kingdome , so when they do arise in a true Church , there is power to voyd them out , and the persons with them , in whom they reigne . But if the vnlawfulnes of a Church government might be proved by the pryde , contention , & the like evils arising in it , then surely M B. you that know so well how these and other mischeifs reign in your own , should lay your hand on your mouth for shame , and be affrayd to provoke any man to medle in that matt●● . Besides it is apparent both in the scriptures , and ecclesiasticall writers , that not onely pride , and contention , but herely , and almost all other evils haue sprung from the officers , & governours in the Church . And surely nothing hath more in former dayes advanced , nor doth at this day more vphold the throne of Antichrist , then the peoples discharging themselves of the care of publique affaires in the Church , on the one side : and the Preists , and Prelates a●rogating all to themselves on the other side .

Lastly the word Church ( you say ) must be expounded figuratively Mr B. to avoid the absurd●t●s , which e●s would necessarily follow out of the text , viz: that , the whole Church must speak ioyntly , which were confusion contrary to 1 Cor. 14. 40. that women must medle in Church affaires , which the Apostle forbids , ver. 34. that children must speak , which were impossible : so then it must needs ●e taken figuratively , the part for the whole , and if one part must be left out , why not an other , till the cheif of the Congregation be taken , who are chosen by the rest as their mouth .

Touching the exception of confusion , I desire the reader to remember Ans. what hath been formerly answered : adding further , that Mr B. herein doth not oppose vs but the Apostles , and Apostolicall Churches governed by them : yea the H. Ghost it self propounding their examples for our imitation . The Apostle Peter , Act. 1. 15. &c. standing vp in the middest of the disciples ( which were about an hundred and twenty ) spake to them about the choise of one to succeed Iudas : and it is sayd , ver. 23. that they , that is , these brethren to whom he spake , presented two : as also that the whole multitude , Act. 6. 5. presented the seaven for Deacons to the twelve Apostles , who are sayd , v. 2. to haue called the multitude , and to have spoken vnto them , & v. 6. to have prayed , and layd hands on the elect Deacons . Now might not any prophane spirit take vp M. B. words , and insult over the holy Ghost himself , and say : what did all the disciples that were in the place ( an hundred and twenty ) present Ioseph , and Mathias ? They must needs speak in presenting these two , and spake they ioyntly , or all at once ? this were confusion contrary to 1 Cor. 14. 14. did the women speak ? they must not medle in Church matters , ● . 34. did children speak ? it is impossible . So for Act. 6. did all the twelve Apostles speak at once , v. 2. and pray at once , v. 6. did the whole multitude speak ioyntly , when they presented the 7. Deacon● v. 6. here were the like confusion ; and besides here were women , and children in the Church also . Now let the indifferent reader judge , what M. B. hath sayd more against vs , then any Lucian or scoffing Atheist might obiect against the spirit of God himself , and his holy pen-man the Evangelist .

Yea further , by these and the like consequences , women and children are vtterly excluded from the Church , as no parts of it .

Luke sayth , Act. 15. 22. that the whole Church sent messengers to Antiochia , and Paul 1 Cor. 14. 23. speakes of the whole Churches comming together in one to exercise themselves in prayer , prophesying , and the like parts of Church communion ; but children neyther could send messengers , nor pray , nor prophesie , nor the like , and women might not speak in the Church ; and therefore both they must be left out of the Church , and if one part why not an other , & so till we come to the cheif of the congregation , that they alone may be the Church , and all in all ? & as it is iust with God , that he which opposeth the truth , should oppose himself also , so doth Mr B. in this very place intangle himself in the same absurdities , wherin he would ensnare vs . First he affirms the Church , Math. 1● . must be the principall of the congregation . Then Mr B. is not your congregation the true Church of Christ , for the principall of your Church , namely your self , hath no power to excommunicate . And say not for shame , the Archdeacon or officiall are principalls or lesse principalls of your congregation .

Again , which is the cheif thing I desire may be observed , you say , these principalls must be chosen by the rest of the Church , & be their mouth , and stand for the whole . And how chosen ? must the whole Church speak joyntly when they chuse them ? that were confusion . must women speak ? that is contrary to the scriptures . Yet are they members of the congregation , and so are young youthes , children , and servants . I adde further , the Church you say , is two or three principall members . Well then , they two or three must speak to the party , how can he els heare ? but for two or three to speak together , is confusion , and contrary to the commaundement , 1 Cor. 14. 31. for all must speak by one & one .

And by this time , I hope you are ashamed of such tristing as here you vse .

I do therefore answer in few words : it is not necessary that every one of the people should speak to the offender , no nor of the officers neyther . If but one officer do sufficiently evince , and reprove the party , what needs more speak ? The rest both Officers & people , may manifest their consent eyther by voice , signe , or sil●nce , yet so as liberty be preserved for any in place , and order , to speak , eyther by way of addition , limitation , or dissent . And for women , they are debarred by their s●x , as from ordinary prophecying , so from any other dealing wherin they take authority over the man , 1 Cor , 14. 34. 35. 1 Tim. 2. 11. 12. yet not simply from speaking : they may make profession of faith , or confession of sin , say Amen to the Churches prayers , sing Psalmes vocally , accuse a brother of sin , witnes an accusation , or defend themselves being accused , yea in a case extraordinary , namely where no man will , I see not but a woman may reprove the Church , rather then suffer it to go on in apparent wickednes , and communicate with it therein . Now for children , and such as are not of yeares of discretion , God and nature dispenseth with them , as for not communicating in the Lords supper now , so vnder the law for not offering sacrifices , from which none of yeares were exempted : neyther is there respect of persons with God in the common duties of Christianity .

And for that so oft reinforced objection of authority given to two or three , and therefore not to all , I have answered and do , that to two , or three , and yet to all , when there are but two or three in all , as vsually comes to passe in the raysing , and dispersing of Churches .

Your 6. Argument to prove that the word Church must be taken Mr B. figuratively is first , that els the Corinthians had offended , who being all commaunded did but some of them proceed against the incestuous person . 1 Cor. ● 13. 2 Cor. 2. 6. 2. that els Paul had offended , who vpon the complaint of Cloes house did himself , without wayting for the Churches consent , being absent , iudge and determine the matter , and s●nt to them to execute ●● sentence .

These two Arguments Mr B. are in your hands like the two witnesses Ans. that came against Christ , they neyther agree one with an other , nor eyther of them with the truth . In the former you plead for the Presbytery in saying that some of them did proceed against him , in the latter you vtterly overthrow that , and step in for the Bishops sole power where you make Paul alone iudge and determiner of the busines . I am verily perswaded Mr Smyth hath felt your pulse in Mr Smyth pag. ●4 . this place , and found directly what blood runs in your ●eynes ; to him therefore do I leave you for iudgement in the case .

And for answer to the particulars .

In the first argument you do most sinfully corrupt the scriptures , knowing that if they be soundly alleadged , they will give no countenaunce to your errour . For where Paul sayth , it is sufficient for 2 Cor. 2. 6. the same man that he was rebuked of many , you for the word many put s●me : where some doth import a part , and but a part : ( for where some are sayd to do a thing , it followes , that other some do it not ) where the word many is oft times put for all , as being opposed to one , or a few : as in this place , many rebuking to one rebuked . Take for this phrase of speach , these scriptures . Dan. 12. 2. Mat. 13. 17. Luke 12. 7. Rom. 5. 19. and 8. 29. & 12. 4. 5. 1 Cor. 10. 17. & 12. 12. 14.

But mark I pray thee ( wise reader ) when this man expounds Math. 18. 19. 20. where mention is made of a few two or three having the power of Christ , there by two , or three are meant the officers , and Christ hath established the authority of a few for the good of all , and again two or three officers , and a few , have this authority : and yet notwithstanding , when he comes to expound 2 Cor. 2. 6. where mention pag. 95. 98. is made of many rebuking the offender , there by many must be meant the officers also .

What Mr B : are two or three Officers in respect of the whole body many ? Doth the holy Ghost speaking of a few in the Church , mean the officers , and speaking of many , mean the officers also ? It were good you awoke out of your dream , that you might spy your contradictions , and how one peice reproves an other .

To the obiection I do answer , that first it doth not appear that the party was excommunicated , it may be vpon admonition he repented , and so the extremity spoken of , 1 Cor. 5. 5. was prevented : and 2. if he were , eyther by many may be meant all , as I have formerly shewed , or otherwise it is sufficient if some reprove , the Elders or some of them , specially , by their office , and so of the brethren in the second place , if they see necessary cause ; wherevpon with the silent consent of the rest , iudgement may be given , or the party delivered to Sathan . Mr B.

The 7. Reason to prove the Elders the Church , is , the iudgement , and practise of all reformed Churches .

As the reformed Churches do abhorre from your practise , as ●ns . intollerable , yea almost incredible , that the power of excommunication should be in the hands of one man , and that a forreyn Prelate , or Officiall , that most like never so much in his life as once came in the congregation , whereof the offender is a member , as may be seen in one for all , Beza Epist. 12. so bycause you will needs thus beare over all with all the reformed Churches , I will a little step out of my beaten way , and call in a few ( well-deserving audience ) of the reformed Churches to testify what their judgement is in the case , joyning vnto them also a few of our own men seeming to be of the same mind , whatsoever the practise is eyther of the one , or of the other .

To omit then the judgement and practise of the more ancient times , whether whole councels , or particular persons , ( as of the Council of N●ce , where Paphu●tius , no Church officer , both had & vsed such liberty of speach , as he perswaded the whole assembly touching the maryage of Ministers : of Tertullian before that , who Apol: chap. 39. makes the officers onely Praesidents in the assembly , where manners are censured : of Ciprian who would never do any thing in his charge , without the consent of the people . lib. 3 ▪ epist. 10. and in particular thinks it specially the peoples right to chuse or reiect worthy , or vnworthy Ministers , then which what power is greater ? Of Austin , that thinks it helps much to the shaming of the party , that he be excommunicated by the whole Church , lib. 3. contra epist. Parmen: and lastly of Ierom ad Demetr. which affirms that the Church it self hath right in excommunication , as the Elders have in other Church censures ) the first is Zwinglius , who arti● ▪ 8. explanat : speaking of the contention which hath been what a Church is , acknowledges none other Churches but 1. the company of sure & firm beleevers scattered through the vniversal world , which we call the catholik Church : & 2. severall congregations , which ●ōveniently meet together in some one place , &c. and of these he affirmes Christ to speak , Math. 18. Tell the Church , and Paul . 1 Cor. 1. To the Church which is at Corinth . And answering an objection touching a Church representative he saith , of this I find nothing in the scriptures : out of mens devises any man may feyn any thing .

Next Perter Martyr , in his comon places pant : 4. chap. 5. sect. 9. making the Church a Monarchy in respect of Christ , an Aristocracy in respect of the Elders , addeth also that bycause in the Church there are matters of great weight , and importance referred vnto the people , as excommunication , absolution , of choosing Ministers , & the like , it hath also a consideration of popular government : and vpon 1 Cor. 5. 4. The Apostle as great as he was would not excommunicate alone , but did take counsel with the Church that the thing might be done by common authority . Which notwithstanding the Pope , and other Bishops dare do . The Apostle indeed goes before the rest , which is the duty of the ancients of the Ch: that the more ignorant multitude by their suffragation before going , may be directed in iud●ing .

With him ioyn Bucer , who in his first book chapt. 9. de regno Christi , affirmes that Paul accuses the Corinthians , for that the whole Church had not excommunicated the incestuous person .

Bastingius in the 4. place , quaestion 85. of his Catichism speaking of the difference between the two keyes that of preaching , & the other of discipline places it in this , that the former which is of the preaching of the gospel is committed to the Ministers , the other , bycause it perteyns to the discipline of excommunication , is permitted to the whole Church .

Lastly , even Beza himself , how streyt soever he be to the multitude in this case , hardly graunting them the liberty which “ “ first book pag. 98. Mr B. yea which the very * * Maldonatus ●●on Math 18. Iesuits do , namely that they were with the Elders gathered together in the name of the Lord Iesus , 1 Cor. 5. 4. yea & do playnely deny it in his Annotations vpon 2 Cor. 2. 6. Yet vpon v. ● . he is constreyned to affirm , that Paul intreats that the incestuous person might by the publique consent of the Church be declared a brother , as he was by the Churches publique consent cast out .

Now to these speciall lights in the reformed Churches abroad , I will annex a few of the cheif endeavours of reformation at home .

The first of them is Mr Hooper , who in his Apology writes , that excommunication should be by the Bishop , & the whole Parish , & that Pauls consent , & the whole Church with him did excommunicate the incestuous man .

To him adde Mr Fox , whose judgement in the book of Martyrs , pag. 5. 6. 7. is , and so is inforced by him that writ the discovery of D. Ban●r ofts vntruthes , and slaunders against reformation , that every visible Church , or congregation , hath the power of binding , and loosing annexed to it . If it be sayd the Church hath it , if the Officers have it : I see not but it may be as well sayd , the Church hath the scriptures in a known tongue , if the Officers so enjoy them .

Thirdly Mr Cartwright in his reply to D. Whitgifts answer , pag. 147 both affirms , and proves , that Paul both vnderstanding , and observing the rule of our Saviour Christ , communicates this power of excommunication with the Church , Him also an other writing A demonstration of discipline , alledgeth , adding further that they which were met togither , 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. were to excommunicate the incestuous person : with whom also consorteth he that wrote of the certayn form of ecclesiasticall government● , who vnder that head of the authority of the Ministers of the word that by the Church Math. 18. Christ meanes a particular Congregation , the Pastor , Elders , & people consenting , making that the iudgement of the particular congregation which is spoken of 1 Cor. 5. 12.

In the 4. place Mr Iacob in his book to the King for reformation , pag. 28. pleads for the peoples consent and voyce-giving in elections , & excommunications : to whom I ioyn them that made the Christian offer to iustify against the Bishops , and their adhaerents , that ▪ every ordinary assembly of the faithfull , hath by Christs ordinance power in it self immediately vnder Christ , to elect , and ordeyn , deprive , and depose their Ministers , and to exequute all other ecclesiasticall censures . Proposition 5. & Prop. 8 , that the officers can do no materiall ecclesiasticall act without the free consent of the Congregation .

Lastly * * pag. 180. the godly Ministers in the end of Mr Bernards book do directly judge against him , interpreting the Church . Math. 18. to be a particular Congregation , and excommunication the iudgement , & censure of that particular congregation whereof the offender is a member .

Thus have I been constreyned by the bold boasting , and facing , which this man vseth , of , and with the iudgement of all reformed Church●● , to set downe the judgements of some few amongst many both at home ▪ and abroad for his conviction ; though I desire the touchstone of the holy scriptures alone may try all differences betwixt him and me . I now return to Mr Bernard where I left him : & so come to two reasons he annexeth pag. 98. 99. to prove the officers to be called the Church : the former is , because it is , an Mr B. vsuall speach to put the name of the whole vpon the part , and this to be taken for the whole . The 2. bycause a company is no where called a Church in the new testament , but where they have officers .

The latter of these I have formerly confuted as the reader may Answ. see pag. 126. 127. &c. Onely I adde one thing vpon occasion of these words a Church in the new testament , that as there is but † † Eph. 4. 4. one body , or Church , and we vnder the new testament that “ “ Chap. 3. 6. one , or the same body or Church with the Iewes in the old , so ( if the Ministery made the Church , how much more if it were the Church ) could it not be , that the Iewes and we should be one Church , for I shall never be brought to beleeve , nor , I think will any man affirm it , that the Ministery of an Apostle , or Elder now , is the same in nature with the Ministery of a sacrificing Levite vnder the law . Wee are by faith * * Luk. 19. 9. sonnes and daughters of Abraham , and partaker of the covenant , and promises , and † † Rom. 11. 16. 20. by fayth grafted in their holy root , and in this stands our onenes with them , but neyther in the Ministery , nor in the government , nor in any other ordinance which are but manners of dispensing that covenant , and those divers & changeable , where the covenant is nothing lesse .

And for the former of your reasons , ( howsoever the place you bring Act. 15. 3. proves no such matter ) yet is the thing true you say , namely that a part of the Church is sometimes called by the name of the whole ; but what part ? not the officers , but the brethren , the saynts , as being the matter ( an essentiall cause ) of the Church : the Elders not so , as being but for the assistance , and well being of it . And so the Church gives both being , and denomination to the Elders , but not the Elders to the Church : which is never called the Church of the Elders , as they are called “ “ Act. 20. 17. the Elders of the Church , and so are of it , and not it of them .

That which you adde of inconveniences , and discommodities following vpon your doctrine not to be regarded is frivolous , except by them you mean , absurdities , and inconsequences , ●a al●g● in theologia , as they call them , and then they are to be regarded , as never necessarily following vpon any truth : for the truth brings forth no errour by true consequence .

The sixth Reason , of the superiour order , followeth , ( for Mr B. hath his reasons , and his vnder reasons ) which is ,

In it self ( the multitude being ever vnconstant ) it is instability , vnorderlynesse , Mr B. where every one is a like equall , it is the nourse of confusion , the mother of schisme , the breeder of contention . Ans.

These very same things have been formerly objected by you in the fourth part of your 5. argument , and there cleared . The truth is , the drawing of all power into the officers hands , breeds in them pride , and arrogancy , and in the people ignorance , and security .

And for your contemptuous vpbrayding of Gods people in this book , with inconstancy , instability , pride , contention , and the like evils , but specially in your second book , where with a scurtilous , and prophane spirit you nickname them , Srmon the Sadler , Tomkin the Taylour , Billy the Bellowes maker , as you shew whose child you are , Ioh. 7. 48. 49. in so speaking , so doth the Spirit of God give an other testimony of them Act. 2 41 42. Phil. 1. 6. 7. 1 Th. 3. 5. 6. 7 8. 1 Pet. 1 7 8. In deed ( as I formerly sayd ) no mervavl though such multitudes as yours are , be vnstable and variable , and ready to change their religion with their Prince , yea though it be to Popery , as appeared in Queen Maries dayes , vniversally scarce one of ten thousand excep●●d : onely the mischeif was , that the Praelates and Priests were as vnstable as the rest , yea their ringleaders also .

But for our selves , Mr Bern. and that whereof we take experience in this our popularity , as you terme it , I tell you , that if ever I saw th● b●a●●y of Sion , & the glory of the Lord filling his tabernacle , it hath b●en in the manifestation of the divers graces of God in the Church , in that heavenly harmony , and comely order , wherein by the grace of God we are set and walk : wherein , if your eyes had but seen the brethrens sober , and modest cariage one towards an other , their humble , and willing submission vnto their guides , in the Lord , their tender compassion towards the weak , their ●●rvent zeal against scandalous offenders , and their long suffering towards all , you would ( I am perswaded ) chaunge your mind , and be compelled to take vp your parable , and blesse , where you purposed to curse , as Balaam did , Numb . 23. But whatsoever you , and all others do , these our experimentall comforts neyther you , nor any other shall take from vs .

Your 7. and 8. Reason are of one nature , and may for brevity Mr B. sake be contracted into one : the sum whereof is , that the sheep , & flock are to obey , and depend vpon their sheepheard , Heb. 13. 17. 1 Pet. 5. 2. the children to be subiect to their father , 1 Cor. 4. 15. the work to be ordered by the workman 1 Cor. 4. 12. the corne by the seeds man , and not the contrary : and ther cannot be shewed in the old or new testament any example , that ever the people had commaund over their Pastours , or power to ●ast ▪ them out .

These things are popular , and may deceive the simple , and credulous , Ans. but though * * Prov. 14. 15. the fool beleeve every thing , yet the prudent will consider his stepps .

Wee deny not then , but the flock both severally and ioyntly is to obey them that have the oversight of them , Heb. 13. 17. to know them , and to have them in singular love , 1 Thes. 5. 12. 13. but it must be in the Lord , and for their works suke : and wherein they watch for their soule . as is expressed in the same places . But what now if the officers will reign besides the Lord ? if their works be such , as deserve hatred , and not love ? if in stead of watching for the peoples soules , they take a course , eyther to starve them through negligence , or to poyson them with heresy , or evill life ? must they stil obey them ? or hath the Church no remedy against them ? The Churches of Galatia were bound to receive , and submit vnto such Ministers as brought the doctrine of Christ ; and yet “ “ Gal. 1. 9. Deut. 7. 26 if any man , yea though he were an Apostle , or above an Apostle , should bring any other doctrine they were to hold him accursed , and so to cast him away as an accursed thing . The Collosians were bound to obey Archippus in the lawfull exequution of his Ministery , and yet they might † † Col. 4. 17. say unto him , look to thy Ministery , and if they might so admonish him , certaynly they might go further with him , if there were cause . The Pilate is to guide the ship , and all that are in it ▪ ( yea though the King himself be there ) but if he eyther ignorantly , or desperately will run vpó the sands , he may be displaced by his passengers , and the fittest put in his room , as I have formerly observed . Now not onely the Church is commonly , and fitly compared to a ship , but the very word vsed 1 Cor. 12. 28. ●or the “ “ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 govern●●● of the Church , is borrowed from the government , and guidance of a ship in the originall . And if nature teach this liberty , in bodily daunger , how much greater liberty doth the Lord give in the spirituall daunger , both of soule , and body also ? And your quaestion of examples for the peoples casting out their officers , is frivolous , if there be a commondement or rule for it . What example have you , but grounds , for the baptizing of infants ? Or where read you of any officer excommunicate by any ? And certaynly if the body of the Church may not cast out the Pastor for obstinate sinne , no person , nor persons vpon earth may do it .

But the vanity of your opinion I do thus manifest .

First you affirm pag. 88. that to separate from , is all one in substance I. with , to excommunicate ( though called by a name l●sse odious ) . Whence it followeth that if the body of the Church may not excommunicate their officers , they may not separate from them , no not though they prove Papists or Atheists , or never so abominable , oh the hellish bondage wherein these men would enthrall the Lords people to their destruction .

If the Congregation may chuse , and elect their governours , II. then they may reject and reprobate them : ( for they that set vp may pull down ) but this liberty ( as streyt as you are to the multitude ) you your self graunt them , pag. 97. and if you denyed it , the scriptures assure it them , Act. 1 , and 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. & 14. 23.

But if in these words , the people have no commaund over their Pastors , nor power to cast them out , you would intimate , that they might depose them but not excommunicate them , it would nothing avayl you . For as it were a straunge thing , that men should haue no commaund over their servants , ( as I haue of● times shewed the Church Officers to be the Church servants ) so were it a● strange , if the putting of servants out of their Office , should not argue power over them . And besides deposition ( if any such ordinance be to be vsed in the Church , is not of persons obstinate in sinne , but of such , as having by grosse idolatry , or some other notorious crime , so scandalously faln , as they cannot be reteyned in their Ministery , with the safety , and credit of the Church , & Gospell , no not though they repent , but ( not withstanding their repentance , and continuance in the Church vpon the same ) they are to be disseyzed of their Ministery , and “ “ Ezek. 44 10. 12. 13. to beare their iniquity , and shame . But this is nothing to men obstinate in sin , who may not vpon their deposition , be continued in the Church ; and to deal with them a new for the sinne , for which they have been formerly censured , or to censure them twice for one sin , is an idle and unwarrantable course . They are therefore to be cast out by the people , and so vnder their excommunication , is their deprivation comprehended .

If the Pastour ( and so of the rest of the Officers ) be a brother III. in the Church , ( as * * Mat. 23. 8. all Gods children are the saynts brethren ) then must the Church not suffer † † Lev. 1● . 17. sin to rest upon him , but must admonish him , and if he remaine obstinate , cast him out . For the Lord Iesus subjects every brother indefinitely , and without respect of persons , to this censure , Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 11 , 12. 13. From which last scripture another Argument of the same nature may be drawn , which is , that if the Pastour ( and so of the other officers ) be within , and not without , and vnder the Lords judgement , then are they under the judgement of the Church “ “ verse 4. gathered together in the name of our Lord Iesus , which you confesse to be * * pag. 92. the multitude ; yea I see not how the Pastour , or officers may be admonished by the Church , if they may not be cast out , or how the Collossians may † † Col. 4. 1● . say to Archippus , take heed to thy Ministery , if they may not censure him , if he be heedlesse ; for he that wil not heare the Church , must be excommunicated , or ( which is a description of excommunication by an effect ) must be accounted an heathen or publican .

They † † Cor. ● . 12. 13. that are without & vnder the Lords iudgement , are exempted IIII. from the Churches judgments , but they which are within , the Church ▪ must iudge : and therefore if the Ministers be within , and not without , and under Gods iudgements , they must vndergoe the iudgements of the Church .

If the Pastour ( and the like reason is of the rest ) ▪ may not be excommunicated V. for sin , by the Church , then he and they want a meanes of salvation , which the brethren have , y●● the onely folenin meanes of salvation in the case of obstinacy , ●o which they are as sub●ect , as any other , being frayl men , as the rest . And the reason is , for that , as “ “ Rom. 1. ●7 . the preaching of the gospell ( which is the one key of the kingdome ) is the power of God to salvation vnto them that beleeve , so excommunication ( being the other key ) is , * * 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. the power of our Lord Iesus for the destruction of the flesh , or humbling of the offender , that his foule might be saved . Now what a miserable priveledge this were ▪ all men truely fearing God , will easily observ●● ▪ And for mine own part , knowing mine owne infirmities , and that I am subiect to sinne , yea & to frowardnes in sin , as much as the brethren are : if by mine office I should be deprived of the romedy , which they enioy , that blessed ordinance of the Churches con●ures , I should think mine office accursed , and my self by it , as frustrating , and dissappointing me of that mayn end , for which the servants of Christ ought to ioyn themselves vnto the Church of Christ ▪ furnished wi●h his power for their reformation . And sin●e the cheif thing , which after the glory of God , the saynts are to regard , is their salvation , and that their salvation is no way indang●red , but by obstinate impenitency , and that obstinate impenitency hath none other solemn ordinance for remedy , but excommunication , what cause of sorrow had I for the want of this soveraigne remedy , and meanes of salvation by mine office , which without it I might enioy ? As on the contrary , God is my record , how in the very writing of these things , m● soul is filled with spirituall ioy , that I am vnder this easy yoak of Christ the censures of the Church , whereof I am , and how much I am comforted in this very consideration , against my vile , and corrupt nature , which notwithstanding , I am perswaded the Lord w●ll never so farre suffer to rebell , as that i● shall not be taymed , & subdu●d by this strong hand of God , with out which it might every day and hower so hazard my salvation .

That doctrine which advanceth an inferiour and meaner estate VI. in the Church , above that which is superiour , & the cheif , that is vnsound , and in deed serving in a degree for “ “ 2 Thes. ● . 4. the exaltation of th●● man of sinne a 〈◊〉 all that is called God . But this doctrine of Mn●st● setting the Elders without and above the iudgements ▪ and censures of the Church doth advance an inferiour above a suporiour .

Ergo.

The point then to be proved is , that the order of saints or say●tship in the Church ; is an order superiour vnto , and above the order of officers ▪ or of Bishoptick , or Eldership ▪ which I thus manifest .

1. The order of servants is inferiour to the order of them , whose servants they are . But the order of Church Officers , is an order of † † 2 Chron. 35. 3. servants , and they by their offic● to 〈◊〉 the people ▪ Ergo.

2. The order of Kings is the highest order o●●sta●● in the Num. 16. 9 Eze. 44. 11. 2 Cor. 4. 5. Church . But the order of * * Exo. 19. 6. 1 Pet. 2. 9. Rev. 1. 6. saynts is the order of Kings , & wee are Kings as we are saynts not as wee are officers . Ergo ▪

3. As the Apostle proves the woman to be inferiour vnto , and lesse excellent then the man , 1. bycause †† †† ● Cor. 11. 7. 5. 9. 〈◊〉 is not of th● woman , but the woman of the man● and 2 ▪ bycause the man was not created for the womuns sake , but the woman for the mans sake , ●o by necessary consequence , and iust proportion it followeth , that the Elders are inferiour , and lesse excellent , then the Church , as being both of , and for the Church , and not the Church of , nor for them .

4. As the Lord Iesus did prove against the Scribes & Pharisees , that “ “ Math. 23. 17. 19. the temple was greater then the gold , bycause it sanctified the gold , and that the altar was greater then the offering , bycause it sanctifyed the offoring , so by proportion the condition of a saynt , which sanctifieth the condition of an officer ( as our generall calling doth our speciall calling ) is more excellent and greater then it is . To our saynt-ship , and as wee have fayth , is promised the forgivenes of sinnes , the favour of God , and life eternall , but not to our office , or in respect of it . The estate of a saynt is most happy & blessed , though the person never so much as come neare an office , but on the contrary , an officer , if he be not also , and first , a sainct , is a most wretched , and accursed creature .

Infinite others are the reasons to disprove the pretended charter , by which this popish Clergy would exempt it self from the common condition of Christians , in the common Christian ordinances of the Church , as though their office ate vp their brotherhood , & their speciall calling of officers their generall calling of Christians . And I cannot more fitly resemble this exemption of one , or more officers , from the ecclesiasticall censures , vnto which one or so many brethren are subiect being in the same sinne , then to the like exemption or priveledge , springing ( as it seemes ) from the same root , in civill judgements , commonly called The benefit of clergy . For as by it a malefactour ( if he can read vt clericus , as they speak , shall escape death which others do , & so he should without that benefit , vndergoe : so by the benefit of clergy here , the person delinquent is freed from the dint of the spirituall sword , the censure of the Church , which others do , and so he should without that priveledge , vndergoe , as well as they . Where me thinks , it were more meet , as , that he , which can read , and so hath , or may have greater knowledge should be the more severely punished civily , so , that the officers in the Church should vndergoe ( if it were to be found ) an heavier censure for their sinne , as being both more scandalous , and lesse excusable : And so the Lord by Moses expresly manifests his will to be , in enioyning the Preist a greater sacrifice * * Levit. 4. 3●-2● . ●● . a bullock for his sin , where a goat ( which was lesse ) might serve in the like case for the su● of one of the people .

And this may well serve for a seventh reason to prove that the VII . officers are by the law of God lyable to as deep censures for sin , as the people , and so the Pastour , as any one of the brethren .

Yet for the further & more full opening of the iniquity of those proud and popish exemptions , and exaltations of Church officers , whereof from these scriptures alledged by Mr B. and the like , they boast so much , and by which they affright , and abuse the simple people , in all places , I will breifly , as I can , lay down certayn such different respects , and relations , vnder which the officers of the Church do come , as being rightly vnderstood , & iustly applyed , will give good light to the discovering of this mystery .

First then , the officers of the Church are to be considered in respect I. of the thing , which they minister , and that is , the word , and revealed will of God , in which regard they are infinitely above , & superiour vnto all * * Gal. 1. 8. men and angels , and † † 2 Cor. 5. 19. 2● . in the very stead of Christ , and of God himself . And in , for , and according to this message , or ambassage of God , and of Christ , they are absolutely and simply to be obeyed as is the meanest officer about the King , carrying with him his warrant , and authority , by the greatest Pere in the kingdome .

In the 2. place they must be considered of vs , in respect of their II. office , by vertue whereof they do administer . And in this regard they are inferiour vnto the Church , as being by it called to a place of ministery to serve the Church , and not of Lordship to reign over it .

The 3. consideration they vndergoe , is , in regard of their persons , III. and as they are brethren , saynts , christians , ( for they cease not to be Christians , bycause they are Ministers , but must manifest their generall calling in their speciall ) partakers of the same common graces , and subiect to the same common infirmities with the rest : and in this respect they are equall with the brethren , standing in need of the same meanes both for their edification , and reformation , and so particularly , of the censures for their humiliation , if they be so farre left of God , ( as they may be , and oft times are ) as they will not otherwise be reclaymed . And I had as leiv you should tell me , that , bycause the Deacons are to distribute the Churches almes , therfore the Church is not to releiv them , though they be in daunger to starve bodily , as that bycause the Elders are to minister the Churches judgments , none must iudge them , though they be thorough impenitency in daunger to perish spiritually .

Now for the particulars , which Mr B. obiecteth : it is true , the people are sheep , but not the Ministers , but the Lords sheep . Ezech. 34. 6. 8 — 31. neyther are these sheep for the Ministers , as the naturall sheep for their sheepheards , but for the Lord , and the sheepheards for them . The people are indeed an house , but not the officers house , but the Lords house , for him to dwell in . Ephe. 2. 20. 21. 1 Tim. 3. 15.

Secondly the people are sheep , yet not vnreasonable beasts , but men , Ezech. 34. 31. so to be looked to by the sheepheards , as they are also to look to themselves , Act. 20. 28. Luk. 17. 3. They are so a house , as they consist not of dead , but of living stones , 1 Pet. 2. 5. so built vp by the Officers as they are also to build vp themselves , Iud. 20. And which is especially to be minded for the purpose in hand , the officers are so sheepheards , as they are , also themselves sheep , ( if they be not goates ) Math. 25. 37. Luk. 12. 32. Rom. 8. 36. They are so fathers as they are also brethren , Mat. 23. 8. Act. 1. 16. 2 Cor. 8. ●● . yea , as they are sonnes also , in a sence as the Levite was in sundry respects , both Michaes father and his sonne ▪ Iudg. 17. 1. 11. They are so workmen , or builders , as they are also part of the house , Ephe. 2. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 20. so seeds-men , as themselves are also seed , and a part of the harvest , Math. 13. 38.

These distinctions rightly observed , will both teach the officers how to govern , and the people how to obey , and both officers , & people how to preserve themselves , and one another , vnder the power of Christ given to his Church .

And where you demaund in this place , ( by way of digression ) how a few of vs become a Church , we answer in a word by comming out of Babylon , ( thorough the mercies of God ) and building our selves into a new and holy temple vnto the Lord . But where you affirm the Ministery , that is the office of Ministery , or the word so ministred , to be the Lords onely ordinary meanes to plant Churches , or to vrge men to ioyn vnto them , you streyten the Lords hand , and wrong his people . When * * ●●h. 4. 28 29. 30 40. the woman of Samarta spake to her neighbours of Christ , and called them vnto him , they both beleeved , and came ; but had you been amongst them , it seemes you would have done neyther the one nor the other , except a Minister had called you . I confesse indeed the Churches in England , were very manne●ly this way , & would not so much as forsake the Pope of Rome , till their masse-priests went before them , who being continued in their office , did by the attractive power of King Edwards proclamation at the first , and Queen Elizabeths afterward ▪ and by their statute lawes , gather heir Parish Churches vnto them , vnder their service book , as 〈…〉 doth her chicken to be brooded vnder her wing . But the ●●formed Churches were otherwise gathered then by Popish preists continued over them : the people first separating themselves from idolatry , and fo●o●●ing together in the fellowship of the gospell , were afterwards ( when they had sit men ) to call them into the office of Ministery , and so they practised , as appears in the Epistle of Melanctbon to the Teachers ▪ in Bohemia ▪ in D. Tile●us his answer to the Earle of Lavall : and in Peter Martyr vpon the 4. of Iudges .

It is true indeed , that the Lord Iesus sent forth his Apostles into the world , for the first planting of Churches : ( though even in their times Ch: were planted & men turned to the Lord by the preaching of private brethren , Act. 8. 1. 4. & 11. 19. 20. 21. & therefore Barnabas comming among them , is not said to have ioyned them vnto the Lord , but to have exhorted them , which were ioyned , to continue with the Lord . vers. 23. and to have perswaded others to ioyn themselues unto the Lord also : vers. 24. ) but that this course ordinary set by Christ , should be held in the replanting of Churches after the vniversall apostasie of Antichrist , is a thing impossible . There were then no Ministers , but popish Priests ▪ and are they the Lords meanes Mr Bernard ? Shall * * 2 Thes. 2. 3. 8. the man of sin be consumed by himself , or by the breath of the Lords mouth ? Are false Ministers the Lords ordinary means of planting Churches ? Or are popish massepreists , or the popish Bishops from whom they have their authority , and so the Pope himself from whom they have theirs , true Ministers ? And is the Church of Rome a true visible Church ? For it is not possible there should be a true Ministery in a false Church . These are the inconveniences , and discommodities , Mr Bernard speaks of , & by which he sayth we would wring the truth from him . But it is certayn , they are such playne demonstrations , as do evince his pretended truthes of popish and popular errours .

And for the gathering of a Church M. B. I do tell you , that in what place soever , by what means soever , whether by preaching the gospell by a true Minister , by a false minister , by no minister , or by reading , conference , or any other meanes of publishing it , two or three faithfull people do arise , separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the gospell , and covenant of Abraham , they are a Church truely gathered though never so weak , a house and temple of God rightly founded vpon the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets , Christ himsef being the corner stone , against which the gates of hell shall not prevayl , nor your disgracefull invectives neyther .

Indeed * the Pharisees thought bycause they had Abraham for their father , and did descend of him by ordinary succession , & were the formall Teachers of the Church , that therefore God could not possibly cast them off , or have a Church without them : even so it is with the Pharisaicall formall clergy in Rome , and England ▪ they think that Christ hath so tyed his power and presence vnto their ceremony of succession , that without them he knowes not how to do for a Church , but must needs have it passe through their fingers . But as Iohn Baptist told the old Pharisees ▪ † † vers. 9. 10. that God was able of the stones to raise vp children vnto Abraham , though they all , & every one of them , like vnfruitfull trees should be cut downe and cast into the f●r● : so say I vnto their children , the Pharisees of our ●yme , that though the Lord reject them , and every one of them for their apostacy , and rebellion , yet can he by the seed of the word ( cast with what hand soever ) rayse vp vnto Abraham children , vnto himself a Church . They that are “ “ Rom. 4. 12. 18. of the faith of Abraham , they are the children , and seed of Abraham , and within the covenaunt of Abraham Gen. 12. 3 ▪ Gal. 3. 6. 7. ● . 15. 16. 17. ( though but two or three ) and so of the same Church with him , by that covenaunt .

Your last argument to prove the officers the Church Math. 18. IX . and directly to disprove our supposed popularity is , that it is against the dignity , and office of the Ministers , who represent Christs person vnto Mr B. the Congregation , 1 Cor. 4. 1. having authority from him to preach , administer the sacraments , vse the censures , which none but such as represent him can give them , ( which the body of the people do not by office ) nor take from them &c. Answ.

This indeed is the thing : the dignity of Preisthood is it , which goes nearest you : and that you keep last as Iacob did Beniamin , whom of all his sonnes he was loathest to part with , Gen. 42. 4. & 43. 14. But first if your meaning be , that the Ministers by their office represent Christ in his office , it is little lesse then blasphemy ; for Christ is the husband , and mediatour of his Church , by his office , and herein not to be represented by any other man , or angel . The ministers in publishing the gospell , and word of reconciliation are in * * 2 Cor. 4. 2● . Christs stead , and therein to be obeyed as himself ; but what if they speak the vision of their own hart , and publish heresy , & false doctrine , or lead a scandalous , and prophane life ? their office is no dispensation for them , neyther are they now any longer in the stead of Christ , but of the Divel whom they resemble , as children their father , and are so to be reputed .

Besides , there is no force in your argument : bycause the body of the Church represents not Christ by office , as the Ministers do , therefore it is no way equall with the Ministers , nor may medle with them , but the contrary . May not a man as well argue thus ? Bycause the wife no way represents her housband in office , ( for she is in no office ( the same may be sayd of the children ) a● the steward , and the bayliffe doe , therefore the wife is no way superiour vnto them , she may not reprove , or displace them in her husband● absence , what evil soever they doe in their office , or persons , but on the contrary they may rebuke her , and turne her out of doores ( and her children with her ) if there be cause . For they represent the maister in office she not . Now wee know well “ “ Cant. ● . 9 ●0 . Ephe. ● ▪ 29. 30. 32. the Church is the wife , and spouse of Christ , & † † 1 Cor. 4. 1 2. the Ministers stewards .

Thus having cleared the way of such obiections , as wherewith Mr Bernard would stumble the reader , I come in the next place ( as I have formerly ordered my course ) to declare that the Church , Math. 18. 17. is not the officers , but the whole body meeting together for the publique worship of God , and that 1 Cor. 5. proves the same by practise , which is in the former place enjoyned by rule .

Onely I must needs , by the way , make a step into his 2. book amongst his score of reasons there against popularity , and so remove , as it were with my foot , such of them , as are tumbled in by him to make rough the playn wayes of the Lord . And they are as the authour numbers them the 7. 12. 13. 17. 18.

The 7. Reason is , that if a sort of persons professing Christ together , Mr B. without officers haue the power of such officers in themselves , they may do all the officers may do ▪

Wee say not that the Church hath the power of the officers , but Answer . the power of Christ , as is expresly affirmed , 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. and 2. it followes not , that bycause the Church hath the power of Christ for all things , therefore it can injoy all things without officers . The power is one thing , which is inseparable from the body , the vse of the power an other thing , which in many cases it may want . Civil corporations have the Kings power , and charter , as well without as with officers , and yet it may be there are liberties in their charter they cannot enjoy without officers : they have therefore power for officers also , which they may chuse , and so enjoy all their liberties by their help : so in the spirituall corporation the Church , there is alwayes the whole power of Christ residing , which therefore may call officers for the vse of it ; to which it is sufficient , that it can without officers vse this power for things simply necessary , as for the receiving in of members by profession of faith , and confession of sinnes , for the aedifying of them by exhortations , & conforts in the ordinance of prophecying , and so for casting them out by excommunication , which fall from their former profession , or confession . ●● Bern.

The sum of the 11. and 12. Reas: is , that this power or liberty of the multitude to judge in Church matters , overthrowes the power , & authority of Christian Magistrates in the Church , to whom the people are commaunded to be subiect both in the old and new testament . ●●sw .

And doth not the ill advised man consider that his own opinion , making the officers of the Church , alone the Church , and giving them power to judge in Church matters without the rest of the body , doth as much overthrow the authority of Christian Magistrates , as ours , in making the officers and body with them the Church , having power to judge together ? yea much more : for if the ecclesiasticall officers alone be the Church , Math. 18. and so must judge and censure sinnes ( which is the thing he pleads for ) then ● the civil magistrate simply excluded : where wee reputing the whole body the Church , do necessarily include the Christian Magistrate , as being one of the Church .

Secondly is Mr B. and his brother Bell ( whom he quotes in the 〈…〉 gent ) to ignorant , as they cannot distinguish betwixt civil authority , and judgements in Church matters , and that authority and those judgements , which are ecclesiasticall ? The Christian magistrate , as he is a brother , may be censured ecclesiastically by the Church , whereof he is a member : and yet the same person as a magistrate whether of the Church , or not of the Church , or cast out of the Church , may censure , and punish civilly the whole Church , and every member of it , if there be cause , whether in matters of the Church or common wealth .

In the 17. reason Mr B. would fasten vpon vs an absurdity , in Mr B. making the body both to govern and to be governed , and so to be both Lord and servant , Prince and subiect , &c.

It is your self Mr Ber. that commit the absurdity , which I thus Answ. manifest .

The Church must be governed , sayth the scripture , and common sense .

But the Church is the officers , Math. 18. sayth Mr Bernard .

Wherevpon it followeth that the Officers must be governed .

And to your reason , whomsoever you count Lords , and servants , and whosoever are Lords , and servants in your Church , I know by the scriptures that in the Church of Christ the officers are † † 2 Cor. 4. 5. servants , & in that relation the Church may be called a Lord ; and if Christ truely call * * Math. 2. 27. 28. the sonne of man Lord of the sabbath , bycause the sabbath was made for man , and not man for the sabbath , may we also call the Church in a respect , Lord of the Officers , for the Officers are for the Church , and not the Church for them .

And yet we hold the same officers which are servants , to be governours also , for the government of the Church , is merely a Church-service , as all not carnally blinded with ambition , or superstition , will graunt with me .

Now where you affirm , Reas: 18. that the people are never termed by any name insinuating soveraignty , but that the Ministers are , you speak partially on both sides , would you have the Ministers , that is , the servants of the Church , to be her soveraigns ? The names you bring as most advauntageable , argue no such thing . They are Overseers , as the watchmen are for the citie : Elders for th●ir gravity : Fathers in respect of the seed of the word by which they b●ge ▪ to conversion , and therefore Paul makes himself he onely * * 1 Cor 4. 15. father of the Corinthians , bycause he had been the instrument of their conversion , notwithstanding all other teachers whomsoever , to whom in that respect he opposeth himsel● ▪ as not being their fathers . And so men out of office may be as wel the fathers of others , as they in office . However , fatherhood argues no soveraignty . And yet the holy Apostles & Prophets thought not much vpon all occasions , to account the saints their brethren , and themselves theirs . And I would you wist , whose names Iohn Bale in his Paraphrase vpon the Revelation ch. 17 : vers. 3. thought your Grace , your Lordship , your Fatherhood , to be . And where further you name the brethren , sheep , the household of faith , the wife , or spouse in respect of the officers ( for that is the consideration in hand ) therein you deal very deceiptfully ; for the brethren or saynts , are not the Officers sheep , houshold , wife , or spouse , but Christs : betwixt whom , and them the comparison is not .

Lastly your affirmation that the saynts are called Kings , Rev. 1. 6. not for any outward power over men , but for the inward power of Gods spirit sanctifying the elect , by which , as Kings , they rule over their own corruptions , is an ill glosse corrupting the text . For in the same place , they are called Preists also . Now as they are not Preists only for themselves , but for their brethren , for whom they are to offer vp the spiritual sacrifices of prayer , & thanksgiving : so neyther are they Kings for themselves alone , but for their brethren also , having † † 1 Cor. 5. 4. 12. the power of Christ whereby to iudge them , “ “ Math. 16. 19. the keyes of the kingdome to bind and loose them , in the order by him prescribed .

These things thus layd down occasionally , I return to the point . I. And first against the figurative exposition of these words , Tell the Church , I do alledge two approved Rules , and Canon ▪ in divinity , for exposition of scriptures . The former is , that scriptures must be expounded according to the largest extent of the words , except there be some apparent restreynt of them . The second is , that they must be expounded simply , and according to the letter , except necessity compell to depart from the litterall sence to a figurative . And therefore since there appeares not any such necessity , as is pretended , eyther of figure or restreynt , the words must be taken in their largest , and simplest meaning .

With these rules I desire the reader to beare in mind that , which hath been formerly observed to the purpose in hand , and amongst other things , that the officers are to govern the Church in the censures , as in all other actions of communion , and therefore cannot be the Church ; that every true Ch ▪ hath , or is capable of , a ministery over it , and so there should be a minister of ministers : that the order of officers in the Church is an order of servants , and the order of saynts an order of Kings ( which is the highest order in the Church ) fitting vpon the thrones of David for judgement , whom the ministers are to serve in guiding & going before them , in , and in ministring of their judgements . And so I go on .

The rule prescribed Mat ▪ 18. concernes all the visible Churches II. in the world : since the power of excommunication is an essentiall property , one of the keyes of the kingdome , the onely solemn ordinance in the Church , for the humbling , and saving of an obstinate offender , and as necessary as the power to receive in members , without which a Church cannot be gathered , or consist . And therefore the Officers cannot be the Church there spoken of , since true Churches may ( and do ) want officers , as I have formerly proved .

If two or three officers be the Church , Math. 18. then may they III. two or three excommunicate the whole body , though it consist of a thousand persons : for what brother , or brethren soever , will not hear the Church there spoken of , he or they are to be accounted as heathens and publicans . Yea , I ad , if the power of excommunication be ●yed to the office , since the office may remayn in one , I see not but one may do any work of his office , and so as well excommunicate , as admonish , preach , minister the sacraments and the rest . Now whether this power in one or two , to punish judicially one or two thousand , be not Lordly at the least , let the reader judg .

Further , if the officers be the Church , I would know , if one of IIII. them fall into scandalous sinne , and will not be reclaymed , what must then be done . It wil be answered , that the rest must censure him . But what if there be but two in all , must the one excommunicate the other ? the ruling Elder ( it may be ) the Pastour ? 2. if the rest of the Elders , ( being many ) may displace the Pastour by their authority , they may also place him , and set him vp by their authority , and so the poore laity is stript of all liberty , or power of chusing their officers , contrary both to the scriptures , and your 〈…〉 o●ne graunt .

If the Officers be the Church , then they alone may excommunicate V. a brother without the consent , yea or the privitie of any of the brethren : for the busines concernes none but the Church , Math. 18. neyther need they so much as acquaint any others with it . But so absurd is this , as you your self graunt the contrary , and ●ag. 92. ●pon 1 Cor. ●5 . tha● it must be done with the knowledge of the Church publiquely , and when the body meets together in open assembly .

The Apostles themselves , ( whom no ministers now can equall VI. eyther for skill , or authoritie ) did not thus engrosse all things into their own hands , but did interesse the people , though raw , & newly come to the faith , in all the publick affaires of the Church , and in such deliberations , as arose about them . And who should deny them to meddle in those things which concerne them ? But if any do , these scriptures avow their liberty . Act. 1. 15. 23. 26. & 6. 2. 5. & 11. 2. 3. 18. & 22. 1. & 14. 17. & 15. 3. 4. 14. 21. 22. 30. 31. & 21. 22. Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 4. & 16. 3. 2 Cor. 8. 19. 23. 24.

Now there is nothing that more concernes the body of the Church , then the excommunication of a brother , whether wee respect the commaundement of God , binding them * * Lev. 19. 7. not to suffer sin vpon a brother , but to rebuke him plainly , and “ “ 1 Thes. 5 4. to admonish him , that being † † 1 Tim. 5 0. rebuked by many he may be humbled , & drawn to repentance : or the credit of the Church , which must be defended against the slaunders of the excommunicants , which will ever be iust in their 2 Cor. 2. 6 own cause : or their own good , that ●t by the rebuking of one , all may learn to fear : or their conscience who must to day avoid him as an heathen , and lim of Satan , whom yesterday they were to imbrace as a brother and member of Christ . How clearly these things plead the brethrens both liberty , and interest in all this busines , let the indifferent reader judge .

If the Officers alone be the Church , to which offenders are to ●II . be brought , and by which they are to be judged , then are they as the Church to admonish and judge those offenders , eyther apart from the body , or in the face of the publique congregation : but neyther of these two wayes ; and therefore they alone are not the Church . Not in private , or apart , for ,

Then may the Pastor be excomunicated before any one of the I. brethren know of it . Of which evill I have spoken formerly .

2. It is against the nature of the ordinance , being a part of the II. publick communion of the Church , and worship of God , to be performed but publiquely . Yea there is no reason , why admonitions and censures should be administred lesse publiquely then doctrine , and prayer . For the kingdome of the Lord Iesus is as glorious , as his preisthood , or propheticall office : and his throne is to be advanced as high , and made as conspicuous to the eyes of all , as his altar , or pulpit , that I may so speak . Now as the Preistly , and Propheticall offices of Christ are administred in prayer , & preaching , so is his Kingly office in government . In deed if wee thought ( as you do ) , that Christ had left his kingdom , the Church , without lawes , and officers for the government of it , or that this government were an indifferent thing alterable at the willes and pleasures of men , then wee should be as indifferent , where , or how , or by whom it were administred , as you Mr B : are .

3. The officers are to † † Act. 20. 28. feed the flock , one part whereof consists III. in government . Now if admonitions , and excommunications may be administred apart from the body , how is the flock fed by them ? or how do those Elders , vpon whom the government of the Church especially lyeth , discharge their publique Ministery , and service vnto the Lord , and his Church , to which they are called ? or how can the Church see , and know their ministration , that they may * * 1 Thes. 13. have them in super abundant love for their workes sake , if there be cause , or contrarywise , if reason require the contrary ? or when “ “ 1 Tim. 20. they that sin , are rebuked openly , whether Elders , or people , how can the rest fear ? Yea how can these men which are to feed the flock by government , be accounted faithfull sheepheards , eyther before God , or men , if they gather not the flock together , & see they feed accordingly ? though with you Mr B. they that feed the flocks by government , never so much as see the faces of the hundred part of their sheep , and when they have a sheep in hand for straying ( it may be from a dumb sheepheard to a preacher ) they deal with him for the most part many a mile from , but never in , the place , where the particular stock walkes , whereof that sheep is .

Lastly the administration of Christs kingdom , being a part of IIII the communion of saynts , and publique worship , is to be performed of the Lords day , as well as other parts are : and to be joyned with the administration of the word , sacraments , almes , and the rest , as making all one entyre body of communion : yea in cases , to go before the rest , ( I am perswaded ) least the holy things be polluted by notorious obstinate offenders . And if † † 1 Cor. 16. 1. ● . the collections for the saynts which concernes the body , be a Lords , or first day●● work , how much more the spirituall ordinances which respect the soule , eyther for humiliation , or comfort ? Yea I see not how the Church can compell any to forbeare their bodily labour in the six dayes , wherein God hath given them liberty to work , except it be vpon occasions extraordinary , and as they may be constreyned to meet for any other part of publick worship ▪

Well then it must needs be , that this Church of officers must receive , and examine complaints , reprove and censure offenders publiquely , and with the knowledge of the whole body , met together in publique assembly , and this liberty in the exequution of excommunication , you graunt the multitude , pag. 92. of your book . And surely there must be but one Church for the whole busines . But this course is more vnreasonable then the other , namely , that the brethren must be gathered together to be spectatours , whiles the officers alone sit vpon the thrones of David , to heare , and judge , excluding the brethren from all communion with them , though they be personally present . For the communion of the Church stands not in this , that men are present , and see and heare what is done , and receive proffite , ( for so may they do which are without ) but in the mutuall relation , and concurrence of the parts , and is in this ordinance onely amongst them , which are reproved , or do reprove , at least by consent , if they see cause , which are censured , or do censure . And besides it is against common sence , that the officers should be the Church representative , when the body of the Church , which they represent , is present , ( as hath been formerly shewed : ) & to call the officers alone the Church , or assembly , ( which are both one ) when the people are assembled with them as necessary parts , is to call one part of the Church , the Church , excluding an other part of it .

If the officers alone be the Church to be told , and to admonish , VIII . and judge the offender , ( for there is one , and the same Church for all these ) then it must follow , that if the Officers admonish , the Church also admonisheth , and on the contrary , that if the officers refuse , the Church also refuseth to admonish an offendour : but neither the one , nor the other of these is true . First , the Elders observing sin , may and ought to admonish the party sinning , whether the Church observ it , or no ▪ yea though the whol Church be otherwise minded , yea any one of the Elders may admonish ( if he see cause ) both the rest of the officers , & the brethren also : but this admonition cannot be the admonition of the Ch: , except we will say the Church may admonish where shee sees no sinne , yea against her will , yea which is most senseles , except she may be sayd to admonish her self .

The second point needs no great refutation . For who will say , that , if the officers refuse to admonish , and make themselves accessary vnto sin by boulstering it vp , that then the Church is also sayling , and the whole lump thereby levened , except the rest consent with them , or fayl in their personall duties : which notwithstanding might be sayd of them , and imputed vnto them , if by the Church were meant the officers .

If a brother , privately considered , may bind sin privately , vpon IX . the parties irrepentance , then may the same brother , as a part of the publik assembly , bind for his part publiquely : and so he brings the party impenitent privately bound to the Church , holding him still bound vpon the continuance of his obstinacy , but publiquely now , with the whole communion , as privately before by himself 〈…〉 th his witnes . The consequent of this argum : Mr B. graunts in his latter book , pag. 200. vpon Mr Smythes vrging Mat. 18. compared with some other scriptures much what to this purpose ; but the Antecedent ( as he speaks ) he denyes , or rather distinguisheth of these words binding and loosing which he vnderstands onely to be meant of personall wrongs against a man , but not of sinnes at all against God .

But as this exposition conteyns in it two notable absurdities , the first that other men may forgive injuries or wrongs done vnto me , and secondly , that a communion of faithfull men ( for so the words are ) Luk. 12. 14 which is the Church , may medle with judging civile matters ( as are injuries ) otherwise then as they are sinns against God , at which they take offence , or scandalize : so is it evidently convinced by the text , when Christ speaks of † † Math. 18. 1● . binding and loosing in heaven , whither injuries come not , save as they are sinns against God . Yea Mr B : himself graunts in another place of this book , viz: pag. 223. towards the end , that our saviour in this place , speaks of binding and loosing spiritually , and that not by the power of Christ given to Ministers , but to common Christians : where he also brings sundry reasons to prove , that the binding , and loosing there spoken of , doth no way concern the Ministers , or publique Officers , but private persons ; notoriously crossing both his first book in the persons , which he will there needs have officers , and no private men , and here private persons , and no officers ▪ and his second , in the thing , which in the former place he will have merely of civil consideration , but here graunts to be meant religiously .

The next reason I take from v. 19. where mention is made by X. Christ of prayer , by which the censures there spoken of are to be sanctifyed both before , and after they be exequuted . Wherevpon I demaund , whether the brethren present with the officers , be part of the Church , to which the offender is brought , and by which he is judged , in the communion of prayer , or no ? It will not be denied ; thence it must follow , that they are also part of the Church in receiving , and judging of the complaint , or els that they passe in , and out , and in agayn , in respect of the communion , during one and the same excercise , and the sanctification of it .

They which are gathered in , or into the name of Christ , they are the XI . Church spoken of , Math. 18. and have the power of Christ for binding , and loosing , as is evident , ver. 20. Now as me thinks it should be strange to affirm , that the brethren present with the Officers , are gathered in or into any other name then the name of Christ , so doth Paul ( drawing this rule into practise 1 Cor. 5. ) commaund , that the multitude , with the officers ( by not onely Mr B. but the Iesuites confession ) be gathered together in , or into the name of Christ , and that they so gathered , do by the power of Christ ▪ deliver to Satan the offender for his humbling ▪ ver. 4 ▪ 5 ▪ 〈…〉 XII .

Lastly , if the officers , without the brethren , be the Church for the censures , then are they the Church for the other publique ordinances of prayer , preaching , sacraments , and the like , and may minister them out of the communion of the body ; neyther can there be any reason given why they should be ▪ the Church for one solemn ordinance , and not for an other , for one part of the publick communion of the Church , and not for an other . And therefore in the representative Church of the Iewes at Ierusalem were not onely the hard causes opened , about which the people came to enquire , but there were also the sacrifices offered , and other the solemn services performed , according to the dispensations of the times . And to make the officers the Church for one part of the power of Christ , and not for an other , for one solemn administration , and not for an other , ( especially having fit instruments to exequute , ) is a broken course , and indeed to devide Christ from himself .

But about this something wil be sayd , though nothing against it , and namely this . That the officers are to do in one of these ordinances , as in an other , and the multitude no more in the one ▪ then in the other● and that as the officers onely are to pray , preach , and administer the sacraments , and the people not to medle with these things , so in the matter of excommunication .

To this I reply sundry things .

First , if the officers alone be the Church in the censures , then I. it is not in this part of communion , as in other parts : for not the officers alone , but the brethren with them , are the Church , in prayer , preaching , administring the sacraments and the like . And as the Church ( being the body of Christ ) is the most entire , and best compact of all bodyes , so is the communion in it most entyre , & full amongst all the parts , so far as naturall impossibilitie ▪ hindreth not . And therefore even children ( though by nature vncapable of other parts of communion , wherein it is required they should be agents , or do any thing ) yet do communicate in that one ordinance of baptism , in the administration wherof ( as of circumcision before times ) they are merely patients , and baptized in the name of the Father , Sonne , and Holy Ghost . But in other actions , and amongst other members , with whom naturall inability dispenseth not , there is a full , perfect , and intire communion , and that as sensible , and bodily amongst all , as may be , without confusion . In preaching , prayer , the Lords supper , psalmes , elections , and almes , all communicate though with some difference of order and manner of the thing . In the first which is preaching , all communicate , one officer teacheth , and the rest both officers & people are taught : in prayer one officer vtters the voice , and the rest of the Church say , Amen , & so all communicate : in the Lords supper all communicate , one by giving , or administring , and all the rest by receiving with him : in singing of psalmes all communicate , yea and that vocally , and together where they can all combine and concur without disorder : in elections all chuse , or are chosen : in the distribution of the almes , all eyther give or receive , and so communicate together . But now in publick admonitions , and excommunications , there must be a schism , for the body of the Church is by Mr B : excluded from the communion , ( yea though locally present ) for all the communion passeth betwixt the parties admonishing , and admonished , excommunicating , and excommunicated , whereof the body of the Church is neyther , but a very ●ipher , & a hangby .

Secondly , there is great difference betwixt prayer , and II. preaching , on the one side , and excommunication on the other side , in respect of the ordering , and manner of dispensing those ordinances . One officer prepareth in secret , and severall from the rest for preaching , and prayer , & so administreth these ordinances lawfully , as the ordinances of the Church without the consent , yea or foreknowledge of any one eyther brother , or officer : but it is otherwise in admonition , and excommunication . The sin must be told to the Church , and they vpon knowledge of it ; must admonish the sinner , and so the excommunication is publiquely to be prepared , with the foreknowledge , & fore-consent , of the body , which otherwise the officers , ( much lesse one officer , without the knowledge or consent of eyther other officer , or people ) may not minister . One officer ▪ I confesse ▪ may admonish an offender , without the consent of the Church , yea or of any other officer , be there never so many , yea he may admonish both the officers and Church : but this can in no sense be called the admonition of the Church ▪ except wee will say one officer is the Ch: excluding both the people , and other officers , and that the church may admonish her self ▪ and that against her will , which were vnreasonable , and senseles affirmations .

Thirdly , for a kind of preaching , namely : that we call * * Rom. 12. 6. prophesying , ( and so of prayer for the sanctifying of it ) that I affirm not to be so appropriated to the ministery , but that others having received a gift there vnto , may and ought to stir vp the same , and to vse it in the Church , “ “ 1 Cor. 14. 3. for aedification , exhortation , and comfort , though not yet called into the office of ministery , as hath been in part already , and now is more fully proved by these scriptures . Num. 11. 29. 2 Chron. 17. 7. Ier. ●0 . 4● . Math. 10. 1. 5. Luke 8. 39. & 10 , 1. 2. 3 — 9. Ioh. 4. 28 , 29. 39. Act. 8. 1. 4. with 11. 19. 20. 21. 1 Pet. 4. 10. 11. Rev. 11. 3. & 14. 6.

And more specially , the Apostle 1 Cor. 14. doth of purpose , and at large handle this busines , not onely giving liberty vnto , but laying charge vpon all such ( though not in office ) as haue received a spirituall gift , to exercise the same , in the ordinance of prophesying . Now for the better vnderstanding of this point , it must be considered , that the Church of Corinth did abound with spirituall gifts , above an other Churches , both ordinary and extraordinary : which gifts of the spirit they did abuse too much unto faction , and ambition . Wherevpon the Apostle takes occasion in the beginning of the 12. hap . and so forward , to direct them in the right vse of these giftes of God , which was the imployment of them to the aedifying of the body in love : and therfore having ▪ ch ▪ 13. layd down a full description , and large commendation of that grace of love , in the 14 ▪ ch. & the beginning of it , he exhorts to prophesying , and to the study , and vse of that gift ▪ which though it were not so straunge a thing , as was the suddayn gift of tongues , not which drew with it such wonder , and admiration , yet was it more profitable for the Church ▪ and though a matter of lesse note , yet of greater charity , which must bear sway in all our actions .

Against this scripture ( though in it self most pregnant for the purpose in hand ) two exceptions are taken . The one that the Apostle speaks of such persons onely , as are in office , and so of their ordinary ministeriall teaching : the other , that he speakes of such gifts , as were extraordinary , and so being ceased , that the ordinance as temporary , is ceased with them . But neyther of these rubs , must turn vs out of the way of truth , nor cause vs to forbear this most excellent , and comfortable ordinance of the Lord Iesus , wherein is to be seen , and heard the variety , and harmony of the graces of God , for the aedifying of the Church , v. 4. and gayning of the vnbeleevers , v. 24. 25.

That the Apostle in this Chapter directs the Church in the vse of extraordinary gifts is most evident , neyther will I deny , but that the officers are to guide , and order this action of prophesying , as all other publick buesinesses , yea even these wherein the ▪ brethren have greatest liberty , but that he also intends the establishing of , & so takes order , and gives direction for an ordinary constant exercise in the Church , even by men out of office , I do manifest by these reasons .

First , bycause the Apostle speaks of the manifestation of a gift , I. or grace , common to all persons , as well brethren , as ministers , ordinary , as extraordinary , and that at all times , which is love : as also of such fruits , and effects of that gaace , as are no lesse common to all , then the grace it self , nor of lesse continuance in the Churches of Christ , to wit of ●dification , exhortation & comfort . v. 3. compared with 1 Thes. 5. 11. 14.

Secondly verse 21. he permits all to prophesie and speaks as largely II. of prophesying , as of learning , and receiving comfort .

But now least any should object may women also prophesie ? the Apostle prevents that obiection , and it may be reproves that disorder amongst the Corinthians , ver: 34. by a flat inhibition , inioyning them expresly to keep silence in the Church , in the presence of men to whom they ought to be subiect , and to learn at home of their housbands , v. 35. and not by teaching the m●● , to vsurp authority over them , 1 Tim. 2. 11. 12. which the men in prophesying do lawfully vse . Now this restreynt of women from prophecying , III. or other speaking with authority in the Church , both in this place to the Corinthians , and in the other to Tim: doth clear the two former obiections . In that Paul forbids women , he gives liberty to all men gifted accordingly , opposing women to men , sex to sex , and not women to Officers , which were frivolous . And againe in restreyning women , he shewes his meaning to be of ordinary not extraordinary prophesying , for women immediately , and extraordinarily , and miraculously inspired , might speak without restreynt . IIII. Exo. 15. 20. Iudg. 4. 4. Luk. 2. 36. Act. 21. 17. 18.

The Prophets here spoken of , were not extraordinary , bycause their doctrines were to be iudged by other Prophets , and their spirits to be subiect vnto the spirits of others , v. 29. 32. where the doctrines of the extraordinary “ “ Ephe. 2. 20. & 3. 5. Prophets , were neyther subiect to , nor to be iudged by any , but they , as the Apostles , being immediately , and infallibly inspired , were the foundation vpon which the Church is built , Iesus Christ himself being the cheif corner stone .

The Apostle , vers. 37. makes a Prophet , and a man spirituall all V. one , whom he further describes , not by any extraordinary gift , but by that common Christian grace of submission vnto the things he writes , as the commaundements of the Lord . Vnto whom also ver. 38. he opposeth a man wilfully ignorant : teaching vs , that he doth not measure a Prophet in this place , eyther by the office of ministery , or by any extraordinary propheticall gift , but by the common christian gift of spirituall discerning .

It is the commaundement of the Lord by the Apostle , that * * 1 Tim. 3. 2. a VI. Bishop must be apt to teach , & that such † † Tit. 1. 9. Elders or Bishops be called , as are able to exhort with sound doctrine , and to convince the gainsayers : Now except men before they be in office , may be permitted to manifest , their gifts , in doctrine , and prayer , which are the two mayn works requiring speciall qualification , in the teaching Elders , how Act. 6. 4. shall the Church ( which is to chuse them ) take knowledge of their sufficiency , that with faith and good conscience , they may call them , and submit vnto them , for their guides ? If it be sayd , that vpon such occasion , triall may be taken of mens gifts , I do answer , first , that mens gifts , and abilities ▪ should be known in some measure , before they be once thought on , for officers : and 2. that there is none other vse ▪ or tryall of those gifts ▪ but in prophesying : for every thing ▪ in the Lords house is ▪ to be performed in some ordinance , there is no thing throwen about the house , or out of order in it : and other ordinance in the Church , save this of prophesying , is there none , wherein men out of office are to pray , and teach , which therefore they ought to covet , v : 39. and in it to be excercised , and trayned vp , that when officers want , the Church may not need to set vp men , as it were to play their prizes , nor send them like school-boyes to be posed , as your fashion in England is . And that minister , that is not called vpon the Churches experimentall knowledge of his sufficiency in these things , comes not in by the dore , which Christ hath opened , nor may be accounted a true minister of Christ , and his Church . VII .

Lastly , eyther men not yet in office ( being accordingly qualified ) may preach the truth of Christ , or it is not possible , that the people should be taught in lawfull manner , eyther in nations vniversally heathenish , or vniversally apostate vnder Antichrist , before there be true Churches gathered , by which the officers are to be chosen : for as it is not very like that heathenish or antichristian preists will sincerely teach the truth , neyther is it lawfull for them to administer , or for any to joyn with them in their administrations , by vertue of any heathenish , or antichristian calling , or ordination ▪ Rev. 14 ▪ 9. 10. 11. 1 Tim. 5. 22. And howsoever the Church of England hath preferred a dumb , masse , and profane preisthood with a service-book before this ordinance , yet the truth of Christ is otherwise , and so the Church of Christ is taught to practise : which you also Mr B ▪ might do well in modesty to acknowledge , though you want liberty to vse it . XIII .

I haue insisted the longer vpon this point , both for it self , and bycause it serveth effectually to prove the other point in hand . For if the brethren have liberty in this ordinance of prophecy , they haue also liberty in the other ordinance of excommunication : for they are both of the same nature . Look to whom Christ gave the one key of doctrine , to them he gave the other key of discipline : and they that may handle the one , may have a finger vpon the other : they that may bynde & loose by doctrine , reproof , & comfort , they may also bynde or loose by application of the same doctrine , reproof , or comfort to the person obstinate in sin , o● penitent for it . As the one of those doth necessarily establish the other , so take away eyther , and the other cannot stand . And here I gather an other argument agaynst your exposition of Math: 18.

Lastly , as the Elders principally to be imployed in teaching , cannot XIIII . warrantably be chosen without good experience of their gift , and faculty , in prophesy , and prayer , so neyther can they , which are cheifly to be imployed in government , with good conscience of the Church , be called to that ministration , except they also have given , and the Church taken good proof of their ability , and simplicity in the discussing , and debating , carrying , and contriving of Church affaires , as also in admonition , exhortation , and comfort publiquely occasioned , and so manifested . And a very presumptuous sin it is in any Church , to chuse an officer , not thus trayned vp , and tryed . Wherevpon I conclude , that brethren , ( though not in officer ▪ ) have not their hands tyed from medling in the affaires of the Church , especially the censures , but are bound in their places to see to , and assist in the reformation of publique scandalls , and therefore are part of the Church , to which an offender is to be complayned of ▪ for onely they are bound to see reformation of the evill , to whom the complaint is to be made , where Christ sayth Tell the Church .

It now remaynes we come to the other scripture , which Mr B. turns so lightly over , viz. 1 Cor. 5. which that wee may aright vnderstand for the present purpose two things must be considred : the one whereof is , what the Apostles scope is , and what he intends in that Chap: and the other what persons he interesseth in the busines , about which he deales .

The Praelates with their obedient clergy , do constantly affirm , that the Apostle there reprooves the Corinthi●ns for not complayning to him of the incestuous person , that he might haue censured him , and that he commaunds them ( being now judged by him , as having the sole authority in his hands ) to exequute his sentence vpon him ; and this exposition Mr Bern. laboureth to confirm , pag. 92. 94. 98.

Wee on the contrary affirm , that the Apostle in that scripture reproveth the Church of Corinth , or them , to whom he writes , for suffring ( as they did ) that wicked man uncast out , and that he now wills them to discharge that duty , wherein they had formerly fayled in excommunicating him : to which he also gives his consent , going before them , as his duty was , in judging , and withall avouching his presence in spirit , that is in will , and consent , since he could not be bodily present with them . And that this is the Apostles meaning , it is much that any man reading the chapter with an honest heart , should deny . The arguments of proof , are manifest in the particulars .

1. They ought with sorrow to have put him out . v. 2. 13.

2. They were gathered together in the name of the Lord Iesus , and were by the power of the Lord Iesus , to deliver the offender to Satan for his humbling ▪ that is , to cast him out of the Church into the world , where Satan reignes . v. 4. 5.

3. A little leven leveneth the whole lump . v. 6. wherevpon the Apostle ( alluding to the ancient custome of * * E● : 12. ●5 . putting leven out of the houses , when the Passeover was eaten ) bids the Church purge out the old leven , ( that is the incestuous man ) that they might be a new lump . v. 7. shewing therein , that they were sowred , & become an old lump , in not purging him out , els what need they do any thing to become new ?

But here sundry things are objected by Mr Bernard . As first , ● book . pag. 229. that a man may be where leven is , and yet not be levened , if he take not leven ▪ If by taking leven he mean , enclyning or falling into the same sin , it is idle to imagine , that the whole Church was in any such daunger of incest . Where 2. he addes ▪ that a man reproving the offender , complayning of him , and seeking as he may in his place , reformation as Cloe did is not levened , he colours with a few good words many fowl errours . First , that Cloe complayned of the incestuous man , which was not so : she complayned of the contentions amongst the Corinthians , 1 Cor. ● . 2. but that of the incestuous person was rather brought to Paul by common fame , then otherwise . 1 Cor. 5. 1. 2 ▪ That it is sufficient for the people , yea or the Ministers eyther to reprove an offender , & so to complayn to the Bishops court of him . 3. That a man is discharged if he seek reformation as he may in his place , whereas it is first required a man have such a place , or be in such a-Church , as is capable of Gods ordinances , and wherein he may vse the meanes for reformation , which Christ hath left : other wise his very place , and standing is not of God , nor may be by him continued . La●tly , where he sayth , that the incestuous man had not levened the Corinthians bycause Paul sayth , ye are vnlevened v. 7. it is an ill collection . For they were unlevened or sweet bread in their persons , that is sanctified by the spirit , but sowred or levened in the lump of communion , by suffering that wicked man vncensured : and the Apostles desire is , that that wicked man might be cast out of the society ; that as they were severally pure , or in their persons , so the whole Church together , or masse might be pure , which before was polluted with his contagion .

4. The Corinthians had formerly been taught by Paul not to company or be commingled with fornicators , covetous persons , &c: that is ▪ according to the drift of the whole Chapter , to cast them out , and so haue neyther spirituall , nor civil familiarity with them . ver. 9. & here he reproves them for fayling in that duty .

5. They to whom Paul writ were to judg them that were within , & are charged to use that power in putting away from among themselves tha● wicked man . v : 12. 13.

And thus the evidence for the first point is clear , that they to whom Paul writ & which were to be gathered together , were to be gathered into the name of Christ , by his power to bynde or deliver to Satan the offender as Math: 18 18 ▪ 19 ▪ 20. were to purge out the old leven , not to be commingled with the ungodly , to judge them that were within , & to put away , & from among themselves the obstinately wicked . And it is most untruly , & unconscionably affirmed by this man Pag: 92. ( as I haue formerly observed ) that all that can be gathered from this place , is that the censures are to be executed with the publick knowledge of them that are gathered together .

Now the 2. consideration is , who those persons are thus to be gathered together , upon whose shoulders the Apostle layes this duty of delivering to Satan , purging but , puting away , & judging this wicked man .

And for this , I need no more then M B : own confession in the place before named , pag: 92. where he expresly affirmeth , that by them that there meet together , is meant the body of the Church ▪ And though he , and all the world should deny it , yet would the truth of God stand : which I thus manifest .

1. They among whom the fornicatour was , out of the middest of whom he was to be put , & which were puffed vp , when they had rather cause of sorowing , to them the Apostle writes , them he reproves , they were to be gathered together for the excommunicating , purging out , & judging the offender , v. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. And therefore the duety here enjoyned , as well concorns the brethren as the officers , except we will say , the fornicatour was onely among , and in the middest of the officers , & to put from amongst them , and left amongst the people still , and that the officers onely were puffed vp , when they should have sorrowed , and not the brethren with them .

2. It concerned the people as well as the Preists in the type , & shadow , † † Exo. 12. 15 , 8. 15. to put away leven out of their houses , & to keep the Passeover with unlevened bread : and so in the truth , and substance , to purge , and put out this leven Paul speaks of , namely the incestuous person . v. 7 ▪ 8.

3. The Apostle admonisheth them , that were not to be commingled with fornicators ▪ nor to eat with them : v. 9. 10. 11. & this duety , I hope , as well concerned the brethren as the officers . 2●

4. They with whom Paul deals are commaunded to put the 2● wicked man from among themselves v : 13. so that the same persons , from among whom he is to be put , are to put him away , which are both officers , & people .

And so I conclude ▪ that the rule praescribed by Christ , Math: 18. & the practise of the same rule commended by . Paul 1. Cor. 5. do severally ▪ & joyntly couple & combine together the Elders & people in th 〈…〉ing of an offender , the officers going before , the brethren 〈…〉ng in their order , & the women lastly by silent consent , wherin the scriptures distinguish them from the men , 1 Cor: 14. 14. 1 Tim: 2. 12.

To these things I will adde in the last place the consideration of a scripture , to wit , a Cor: 2. 6. which M. B : & many others with him , think of force sufficient to dash in peices all that hath been , or can be spoken for the brethrens liberty , & right in the fore-handled busines . But as I have formerly answered the objections , forced from this scripture agaynst the truth I hold , so will I here set down one Argument or two , very pregnant , ( except I be deceived ) for the confirmation of it , from the same scripture , & the context thereof .

1. They whom the Apostle by his letter made sorry , for their fayling I. in the casting out of the incestuous man , and that with a sorrow to repentaunce , manifesting it self , with great indignation & zeale , they were ●● reprove , and censure him , and so did , to his reformation , and their own clearing : which that it was not the case of the officers alone , but of the brethren with them , appeares in these scriptures . 1 Cor. 5. 1. 2. with 2 Cor. 2. 5. 6. & 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12.

2. Paul writes not onely to the officers , but to the brethren as II. well as to them , to forgive or loose , to comfort & confirm their love toward the same person vpon his repentance . 2 Cor. 2 , 7. 8. therein plainly witnessing , that the brethren as well as the officers , had bound , rebuked , and manifested their indignation against the sin , and the person for it .

Now this point in hand I will conclude with the observation of a practise yet continued , & in use in the Church of England , which is , that persons excommunicated for notorious sinns , before they be absolved , are to do their pennance ( as they call it ) in the parrish Churches , wherof they are , and there to ask the whole Church forgivenes . Now I would know of you Mr B. whether the church have power to forgive the parties sin , ( as men can forgive sin ) yea , or no ? If you say no , you discover the shame of your Church , thus prophanely to take in vayn the name of God , and to make a mock of Christ ordinances : if you answer affirmatively , then you graunt the power of Christ to forgive , & to loose sinns , & so consequently to reteyn , and binde them , to be in the body of the Church , for which I contend ▪ The truth is , there is no such power in the parish assemblies , as now they stand , they can neyther bind the sinner , nor re●●yn his sin , be he to them never so impenitent : or loose him , and his sin ; seem his repentance vnto them never so full , and vnfeighned ▪ these knots are to be tyed , and loosed , onely by the Chauncelours , or Officials singers , this power have they enclosed with hedge , and ditch , and as things are judged at their tribunal , so must the captived Church take them , and will it , nill it , receive or refuse the party accordingly . The Prelates , and their substitutes have seazed the substance , and kernel , as it were , into their hands , ●aving the poore people onely the shell , and shadow to feed vpon . And yet this very formall shadow stil remayning in the Apostate assemblies , i● 〈◊〉 to bewray how substantiall a power the Churches of Christ were possessed of in their constitution . This shell that remaynes shewes where the 〈…〉 hath been . And as in this , so is it in sundry other paints : When the Bishop ordeynes a Minister , he bids him 〈…〉pel , though he have been his porter , & be known vnable to read sensibly : he vseth also th●s● words , t●ke thou authority 〈…〉 ▪ though it may be he is an 〈…〉 dred mil●● off ( but never in th● place wherein he is to minister : he gives him charge also to monster , the 〈◊〉 of Christ● , as the Lord hath commanded , though he be but the Bishops mans man to exequute his iudgements : which formes of speach , notwithstanding serue to shew , what the Ministers ought to d●● , and where , and by whose election they ought to be appointed , though in truth they do , or be nothing lesse . And ●h●● God by his providence continueth vnworn out in the degenerate assemblyes , such steps , and s●adles , as may serve to shame them , by shewing vnto all that will see , how & where things have stood by Christs appointment in his Church , which do also very well consort with the disposition of Antichrist , whose property is vnder a formall flourish for Christ to fight against him in his truth , and ordinances .

Our ● . reckoned errour is . Mr B.

That the sin of one m●n publiquely and obstinately stood in being not reformed , nor the offender cast out , doth so pollute the wh●le congregation , that none may communicate with the same , in any of the holy things of God ( though it be a Church rightly constituted ) till the party be excommunicated .

This Position thus set downe I deny with Mr Ainsworth , though Answ. with him ▪ and Mr Smyth , I do vndertake the confirmation of that truth , which in his refutation Mr B ▪ goes about to impugne . And that is that the whole communion in the Church of England , is so polluted ▪ with prophane , and scandalous persons ; as that even in this respect alone , were there none other , there were just cause of separation from it .

And to this purpose I will lay down a ground , vpon which I do build whatsoever I speak in this point ▪ which I intreat the reader h●re , and alwayes to observe , and that is .

He that fayles in those duties for the reformation of the sin of an other , which the Lord 〈…〉 his hand , he is accessary to that other mans sinne , and 〈…〉 own by connivency ▪ 〈…〉 And this not onely the scriptures ▪ but e●e● common sense , and the light of nature do confirm . And upon this ground I deny your en●●neration of parts , in the case of pollution , to be sufficient . This streyn comes more wayes then you are aware of . A man may be polluted by , and guilty of the sin of another , though he neyther in iudgement ●●llow of ●● ▪ nor in affection like it , nor practise the like ▪ but the contrary ▪ yea though he speak against it , discountenance it , and brow-beat it , as you speak , when you teach your people to look big upon sin , where they dare not medle with the reproving it : & do his best in his place to reclaym the sinner , ( which are the preservatives you give against pollution ) and that th●se wayes .

When a man doth not † † 1 T●●●s . 5. 14. Heb. 3. 12. 13. & 10. 24. 25. consider or observe his brother as he● ● . ought , nor watch over him in the holy communion of saynts wherin he is set , and which the Lord hath established for this end , that he might be honoured in the communion , and fellowship of saynts . And it is a saying onely becoming 1 Ioh 3. 12. CAIN , and those that are with him of that wicked one , † † Gen. 4. 9. am I my brothers keeper 〈…〉 Thus then a man may be guilty of the sin of an other ▪ yea though ●● be vtterly ignorant of it . And thus , it is like , was * * ●●● 7. 1. 4 , 5 ▪ ●● . 11. 12 ▪ ●●●6 . & 22 , 2● . all Israel guilty of ▪ 〈…〉 , in the excommunic●●● thing ▪ who th 〈…〉 are ●●a●g●d by the Lord to have committed as●● , and to have 〈◊〉 ▪ and 〈◊〉 ▪ and were punished by the Lord for the same , and deprived of ●●● pr●s●●●● till the excommunicate , or ex●crable thing were destroyed from among them .

A 2. case of pollution is the neglect of admonition for the reformation II. of the offender , according to the order and degrees by Christ himself set down , secret and betwixt the offended , and offender , if the sin be of secret practise , and nature : privately , & with a witnes , or two , in the second place : publiquely in the last place by complaint made vnto the Church having the power of Christ for excommunication . Lev : 19. 17. Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17.

There is yet a 3. duty and that is separation , whereof you also III. Mr B. in sundry cases do admit . pag. 105. and to which the Lord in the scriptures calls his people for the shaming of obstinate rebellious offenders , Rom. 16. 17. 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. 1 Tim. 6. ● . the neglect whereof casts both the guilt of the sin , & condemnation of the sinner , vpon him that neglects it . So that a man is not onely bound in his place to do his best for the reclaiming of his brother , but to see his place be such as wherein he may orderly discharge the duties of admonition , otherwise both his practise , and place are vnlawfull . And you your self will teach your people this truth in the generall , that the place , or calling absolutely tying a man to the breach of any of Gods commandements , is vnlawful , and to be forsaken .

Now this is your very case , and the case of the best in your Ch: , ( the Lord open your eyes you may see it , and give you harts to make a right vse of it . ) As there are in your parish whom you dare not admonish secretly , much lesse with a witnes , or two , so ( which is the last and cheifest remedy ) you cannot make complaint to the Church : your Church is not furnished with Christs power to take vengeance vpon disobedience : you are utterly unfurnished of the weapons of this warfare . Great was the slavery of the Israelites under the Philistims , when “ “ 1 Sam. 13 22. there was not a sword found amongst them , in the day of battel : far greater , and more to be bewayled , is your spirituall slavery under the Philistim , and Aegyptian Lords , the Praelates , which have spoyled you of all , and left you vnarmed , for the Lords battel . You know wel Mr B. that the Officiall is not the Church & so do thousands in England with you . For all whom , how much better were it , & more agreable to true godlines , to renounce such vnsanctifyed places , and standings , wherein they doe in avoydably day , by day , steyn themselves with so many impieties of their brethren ( as though their own personall sinnes were too few ) by sayling in this most necessary duty , layd by the Lord himself vpon every brother for the reformation of his brother , then to plead , they do the best they can in their places , to reclaym them ? It will not be sufficient for men suffering themselves to be tyed short in the chaynes of Antichristian bondage from the performance of this necessary duty , at the day of the Lord , when men shall appear to haue perished through their fault , which might haue been gayned by their admonition , Mat. 18. 15. to say they have done what they could within the reach of their chayn . But let all them that fear the Lord , and his righteous judgements , & which have hearts tenderly affected with the conscience of the duety they owe vnto their brethren , and to whom the liberty purchased with the blood of Christ seemeth pretious , break assunder those chaynes of vnrighteousnes , those bonds of Antichrist , and come out of Babylon , and plant their feet in those pleasant pathes of the Lord , wherein they may make streight steppes vnto him , walking in that light , and liberty , which Christ hath so dearly purchased for them .

But for separation from a Church rightly constituted , or from a true Church ( so remayning ) I do vtterly disclayme it . For there is but ‘† ‘† Eph. 4. 4. v. 5. one body , the Church , and but one Lord , or head of that body , Christ : and whosoever separates from the body , the Church , separates from the head , Christ , in that respect .

But this I hold that if iniquity be committed in the Chruch , and complaint , and proof accordingly made , and that the Church will not reform , or reject the party offending , but will on the contrary maynteyn presumptuously , & abet such impiety , that then by abetting that party & his sin , she makes it her own by imputation , & enwrapps her self in the same guilt with the sinner . And remayning irreformable , eyther by such members of the same Ch: , as are faithfull , ( if there be any ) or by other sister Churches , wypeth her self out the Lords Church-rowl , and now ceaseth to be any longer the true Church of Christ . And whatsoever truthes , or ordinances of Christ , this rebellious rowt still reteynes , it but vsurpes the same , without right vnto them , or promise of blessing vpon them , both the persons and sacrifices are abhominable vnto the Lord . Tit. 1. 16. Prov. 21. 27.

Now if any object the Church of the Iewes , and the obstinacy thereof in sin , and wickednes , which was a true Church notwithstanding : it must be considered , that no Church in the world I. now , hath that absolute promise of the Lords visible presence , which that Church then had , till the coming of Christ , Gen. 47. 10. & 17. 7. Exod. 19. 43. 44. 45. II.

It was simply necessary the Messiah should be borne in the true Church , wherein he might have communion , and fulfil the law . Math. 5. 17. Luk. 2. 21. 22. 23. 29.

The Lord did ever affoard the Iewes , even in their deepest III. apostasie , some or other visible signes of his presence , and those even extraordinary , when ordinary fayled : thereby declaring himself stil to remember his promise made to their forefathers , & ever and anon by some godly King , Prophet , or Priest , or ( if these would not serve ) by some severe correction , destroying from amongst them the cheifest rebels , brought them to repentance , & caused them to passe a new into his covenaunt , as hath formerly been declared .

But with vs it is otherwise . No Church now can expect , or doth enjoy such extraordinary priviledges . But if it depart from the Lord by any transgression , and therein remayn irrepentant , I. after due conviction , and will not be reclaymed , it man fests vnto vs , that God also hath left it , and that , as the Church by her sin hath separated from , and broken covenant with God so God by leaving her in hardnes of hart with but repentance , hath on his part broken , and dissolved the covenant also . II.

The Lord Iesus threatens the † Churches , for leaving their first love , R●v . 2. 4. Ca. 3. 16 and for their lukewarmnes , that he will come against them speedily , & remove there candlestick , that is dischurch them , except they repent ; & spue them as loathsome out of his mouth .

There is the same reason , in due proportion , of one member III. sinning , of a few , of many , and of a whole Church , now if a brother sin , and will not be reclaymed by the ordinary means . appointed by Christ for that purpose , he is to be accounted no longer a brother , but an heathen , & publican , Math. 18. 17. so is it with two or three brethren , with a few , with many , or with the whole Church , though there be a different order of dealing : for the multitude of sinners doth no way lessen or extenuate the sin eyther in the eyes of God or men , Pa●. 171. 572. 173. of your 2. book .

Now for your arguments . In handling whereof I will also take in such of your score of Reasons against pollution , as are worthy consideration .

First you say , vnder the law there was a sacrifice for all manner of pollutions , Mr Ber. but none for this , and therefore it is no sin .

It is not so , for 1. if a man polluted his hands with innocent Answ. blood by murder , or his body with adultery , or wrought any other wickednes punishable by death , there was ( that I find ) no particular sacrifice for it . 2. The people of * * Ezek. 44. 6. 7. 9. Israel were guilty of the pollution of the Lords house , by bringing , or suffring to come , into his sanctuary , st●●ungers eyther uncircumcised in flesh , or in heart : and so there was an †‘ †‘ Lev. 16 15. 16. 20. 20. 33. 34. ●ffring to be made once a year for the purging of the holy place , and Tabernacle , for the cleansing of the Altar , & to be an attonement for the Preists and for all the people of the congregation . 3. The pollution I speak of comming onely by neglect of some duty for the reformation of a brother , cannot be denyed to be sin , and with other pollution medle I not .

The godly people were never reproved for being at the ministration of Mr B. holy things though wicked men were there .

We graunt it in the true Church , but deny a company of impenitent Answer . sinners to remayn the true Church , being to the iudgement of men , vnrecoverable . Yea if but one haue committed the evill notoriously scandalous and the rest so tollerate him , that * * 1 Cor. 5. 6. litle leven levens the whole lump , and with † † Ex. 12. 15 leven must not the Passeover be eaten in any case . And here Mr Bernard your cavelling ‘* ‘* 2 book p. 210. Reply vpon Mr Ainsworth , speaking of the whole Church , & all the assembly , is answered . The Corinthians might as well haue eluded , and put of Pauls argument , and reproof , as you Mr Ainsworths : for Paul speakes of the whole lump , as Mr Ainsworth doth of the whole Church . And surely if two or three officers be the whole Church that hath the power of Christ to judge & consure offenders as you say , the whole lump might soon be levened , and the whole Church plead for open iniquity .

The Prophets did not separate themselves though they cryed out against Mr B. wickednes , Isa. 1. 4. 5. 6. 9. 10. &c.

Both the Prophets , Preists , and people that were godly did separate Answ. from Apostate Israel in Ierboams tyme , which we take to be 1 King . 11. 29. 30. 31. 32 , 33. 2 Chro. 11. 14. 16. your estate in a great measure , considering your worship , holy dayes , Preisthood , & government . But for Ierusalem & the Church there , the case is otherwise . Touching which I desire these two Rules may be born in minde .

First that ther was that one onely visible Church vpon the face I. of the earth , tyed to one temple , altar , sacrifice , Preisthood , in one place , & that no man could absolutely separate from that Church , but he must separate from the visible presence , and from all the solemn publique worship of God .

Secondly that the Iewish Church had not that distinct ecclesiasticall II. ordinance of excommunication , which we now have , but that the obstinate or presumptuous offender was by bodily death to be cut of from the Lords people , the same persons namely the whole nation being both Church , and common wealth , according to that special dispensation of those times . Wherevpon it followeth , first , that since absolute separation from the Iewish Church was unlawfull , communion with it was lawfull : and 2. that since the Church had not the power to cast out an offender , it was no pollution vnto them to suffer him amongst them , so they discharged , such other duetyes , as were inioyned them , by the Lord . But it is now otherwise : the times are altered and the dispensations of them . Every place where a companie of faithful people are gathered into Christs name , is mount Syon , & hath the promise of Gods presence : and separation from one Church remayning vncurable may be made into another . And as separation may be from a Church , so may excommunication be of person , obstinately wicked . And these two Rules , rightly applyed wil ( as I am perswaded ) satisfie the scriptures and reasons brought by Mr. B. here and both by him , and others els where , from the old testament , and the vnpolluted communion of the servants of God in the Iewish Church . The other scriptures I will breifly passe over .

Tit. 1. 15. shewes , that all the creatures of God are pure to the pure . I graunt it , and his ordinances also . But ever provided , in their lawfull , and right vse , which in a prophane and vnsanctified communion they are not . By your exposition Mr Bernard , a godly man might eat the Lords supper with haeretiques , excommunicates , yea Turks or Pagans , if they would , and yet all should be pure to him . Of the 2. and 3. chap. in the Revelation , I have spoken formerly , and there proved that the Churches were polluted by the tolleration of wicked persons amongst them , and therefore reproved , neyther is it materiall , if the scriptures do not expresly tax the whole Church for connivency every time they rebuked some persons in it . It is sufficient they do it in some places , and in some Churches : there is the same reason of all , neither hath one Church priviledge above an other , or for one sin , more then an other . And this also may serve for answer to the 2. & 3. of your twenty Reasons in your 2. book . Onely you must take knowledg pag. 1● 1. of your ▪ grosse oversight in the latter reason , where the question being of the true matter of the Church , you bring in Noah in the old world , & L●t in Sodom vnpolluted , as though the world , and Sodom had been true matter of the Church , & Noah and Lot of the same religious communion with them . The like ignorance you shew in the 8. Reason , where you demaund why the fellowship in civil society should not be polluted , as well as religious communion . As though you had never read that † † 1 Cor. 7 ▪ 14. the vnbeleeving husband is sanctified to the beleeving wife for civil society , which is no way dissolved , no not though the one party be a Turk , Iew , or Atheist . And do you think Mr B. that religious communion may be held with such without pollution ?

In the next scripture which is Gal. 5. 10. the Apostle no way acquites the Church of transgression , but speaks vnder hope of their repentance , which they were to manifest by avoyding & cutting off such as had troubled , and sedu●ed them , Gal. 1. 8. 9. and 5. 12.

In Mat. 5. 24. 25. Christ commaunds that before a man offer his gift he reconcile himself vnto his brother . True , but where hatred is , there is no holy reconciliation : and where brotherly admonition is not , and that to the reformation of the brother offending , there is hatred , as is manifest ▪ Lev. 19. 17. And if you would improve to the right vse this scripture , it would drive you and others from your Corban , till you had discharged the dutyes of mercy to your brethren , which the Lord accepts above sacrifice .

Touching 1 Cor. 11. which is the next scripture , I will speak Mr B. something more largely , bycause Mr B. thinks it most pregnant for the decyding of the controversy , for that the Apostle speaking purposely of the pollution of the sacrament , bids every man examine himself , and not one an other , and that vnder peyn of eating damnation to himself , and not to an other , if he come not reverently , notwithstanding there was much evil in the Church .

And is it so in deed , that , bycause men must examine themselves , Answ. therefore not others ? what warrant then have you for your Eastershrift , your examining the people before they communicate ? You I hope , are to examine your self , as well as others . And might not your people tell you out of your own book , that you have nought to do to examine them ? Might not the meanest of them say vnto you , examine your self , if I ▪ eat and drink vnworthily , it shal be myne own damnation not yours ? Yea might not any vngodly person thus answer eyther officer , or brother , that should reprove him eyther publikly , or privately ? This indeed is the common fashion in the Church of England , and nothing more common : and it is a received rule , that every man shall answer for himself , and every tub stand vpon his own bottom ▪ and brotherly admonition is accounted by the most but a precise curiosity of busy-headed people . And in this you confirm them , by your collection : teaching the offenders * * Zach. 7. 11. 12. to pull away the shoulder , and to stop the ●are , that they might not heare , to make the hart hard , as an adamant stone . You do then erre Mr Bern. in expounding 1 Cor. 11. 18. exclusively . It doth not follow , that because I am bound to examine my self , therefore not my brother , that is , not to observe him , admonish him , & bring him to repentance for apparant sinne , for of such an examination we onely speak , leaving to a mans self the examination of the hart , and of things secret . You may as well argue thus . We are to save our selves , Act. 2. 40. to speak vnto our selves in psalmes , &c. Ephe. 5. 19. to teach and admonish our selves , Col. 3. 16. to comfort our selves , 1 San. 30. 6. to edify our selves , Iud. 20. and therefore neyther to save , nor to speak to , nor to teach , nor to admonish , nor to comfort , nor to aedify others : which is contrary to these , amongst many other scriptures . Iud. 23. 1 Thes. 4. 18. & 5. 11. 14.

Furthermore you your self pag. 120. of this book , make ( and that truely ) the Lords supper a testimony of that ▪ visible communion of love amongst the members . Except then there be that love , which is there testifyed , the Lords ordinance is prophaned , and his name taken in vayn . Now where admonitions are not for the purging , gayning , humbling , and saving of the the offender , Mat. 18. 15. 1 Cor. ● . 5. & 2. 6. 7. there is not true love , but hatred , Levit. 19. 17. And that true spirituall love required in the members of Christs body should be betwixt the servants of God , & notorious prophane persons , eyther way , passeth both myne vnderstanding , & affections . And to conclude this point , I would but desire you Mr B. to read the marginall note given in your authorized Bible ▪ printed at London 1603. vpon the 31. verse of this Chapter .

And thus you see how pregnant this scripture is to decyde the contreversie , and to determine against you , that except reformation of sinne be orderly sought , and seasonably obteyned , there can be no right or lawfull communion in the Lords supper . And Paul in writing as he doth , provokes as every man specially to look to himself , so the whole Church together to see the reformation of the disorders amongst them . ver. 17. 18. 33. 34.

Lastly for 2 Cor. 12. 11. it must be considered that the case was depending , and in hand concerning such as had sinned and not repented , and as the issue of things should be , so were the godly to carry themselves towards them : if they would be drawn to repentance , by admonition , they were to forgive them as 2 Cor. 2. 7. if not , the Church was bound to judge , and cut them of , whether Paul came , or no. 1 Cor. 5. 11. 12. 13. Wherein if they fayled , God would punish their carnall security and want of zeal , as he threatneth . Rev. 3. 14. 16. 19.

To proceed , where you affirm that our position insinuates , that Mr. B. the sinne of one dissolves the b●nd of alleageance between God , and another , it it is no thing so . The sin , and apostasie of others can no way hinder , Answ. or praejudice our salvation , or standing with God , if wee discharge our duty towards them . But here is the oversight , that men consider not , that , as God hath commaunded men to worship him , receive the sacraments , and to vse other his ordinances , so he hath also called , and separated vnto himself a Church , a communion , or fellowship of saynts , and holy ones , in & amongst which those holy things are to be vsed , Psal. 147 , 19. Rom. 3. 2. & 9. 4. and that we are as well to look in what fellowship , and communion we receive the holy things of God ▪ as what the things are we do receive . And as in the naturall body there must first be a naturall vnion of the parts with the head , and one with an other , before there can be any ▪ action of naturall communion eyther between the head , and the members , or one member , and an other : so in this spirituall body ▪ the Church , the members must first be vnited with Christ the head ▪ and become one with him , before they can any way partake in his benefits , o● haue communion with him , eyther in the merits or vertue of his death , and obedience , Ioh. 15. 2. 4. 5. Rom. 8. 1. as also one with an other , as members of the same body , vnder him the head , before they can communicate in their works , or operations . Communion in works , and actions , doth necessarily presuppose vnion of persons .

And if it be true which Mr B. labours so much to justify , both in his “ “ pag. 104. 105. 106. 107. former , and * * pag. 171. 172. 173. 174. latter writing , that a man is onely to look to his own person , that it be holy , and to the thing in hand , that it be commaunded of God , and that it matters not , to how vnholy a society this holy person adjoynes himself , in the communion of this holy thing , then may ●e lawfully repute , and acknowledge an assembly of atheists , haeretiques , and idolaters ( though as the assembly gathered , Mark . 5. 9. ) usurping the holy things of God , for the temple of the living God , and for his * * 2 Cor: 6. 16. 18. sonnes and daughter● , among whom he doth dwell , and walk there . There may he call upon God , as their common father , and say with faith , as Christ hath taught his discipls , † † Mat. 6. 9. our father ; there may he have “ “ 1 Cor. 11 1● . 17. communion in the body and blood of Christ , as with the members of Christ . But the Lord Iesus in teaching his Church , with one hart , and voice , to say our father , hath established an other brotherhood : & in † † Mat. 26. 26. 27. giving his body and blood to be eaten , and drunken of all , in communion , hath knit in one an other society . The Apostle writing vnto the Church of 1 Cor. 11. 16. 17. Corinth , compares the whole Church to a mans body , and the persons in the one , to the members of the other , viz ▪ to the head , 1 Cor. 1● . foot , ●y , ear , hand , and other parts : and endeavouring purposely to draw them to the right vse of those spirituall gifts , wherewith they abounded , without contempt , or envie , he shewes that all have need ▪ and vse , each of others , the head of the foot , the hand of the ey , and so mutually one of an other , and that without the help ech of other , neyther could consist . Now since every part stands need of other , even the head , the cheifest , of the feet the meanest , doth it not concern the head to consider what a foot it hath ? the ey to see what an hand it hath ? and so every member to forecast , that it be coupled with such other members in this body mysticall , as may not fayl it in the time of need ? * * Eccles. 4. 9. 10. Wo be to him that is alone ( sayth the wise man ) for if he fall there is not a second to lift him vp , but if two be together the one will lift vp his fellow , if he fall . And how behoofull both for the comfort , and safety of the severall members , and whole body it is , that joyntly and severally , all , and every part be so fitted and furnished , as they may faithfully discharge their duties , and affoard their service vpon occasion , and as need stands , and how great not onely the discomfort , but the daunger is , when there is a fayling this way , both the word of God and common reason , and every mans own experience will teach him . Wherevpon I conclude , that it concernes every man as first , and most , to look to his own person , and to consider how things stand betwixt God and himself , so in the next place to take heed he joyn himself in such a communion , as wherein he may with comfort call vpon God as a common father , and partake in his ordinances by a common right to him , & the rest : & that being so joyned , he fayl not the body , or any member of it , as there is need of his help , & service , otherwise Mr B. reasons will not bear him out , no not though for scores , he put hundreds , which being compared with the scriptures , and grounds from them formerly layd down , will appear to be the very froath of his own lipps , neyther solid , nor savoury .

Next Mr B. reduceth to certayn heads such places of scripture , as Mr. B. forewarn Gods people to separate themselves , and that first vnder the law , as 1. from Idols of false Gods , as Israel from Aegyptian , Babylonish , or heathenish Gods , and Idolaters dwelling about them . 2. From Idols of the true God , as Iudah from Israell in Ieroboams time , and after . 3. From persons ceremonially polluted . In the time of the gospell . 1. From Iewes not receiving Christ , but rayling against him . 2. From Gentiles without Christ . 3. From Antichrist vnder the shew of Christ , persecuting Christians . 4. From familiarity private with men excommunicate , or of lewd life , &c. which places , you say , no way concern you at all , and so you give a very ample testimony of your selves , if we durst beleeve your words , against our own knowledge .

Your first head I let passe , and in answer vnto your second , affirm Answ. thus much ▪ that in your constitution , you are partly , as the Aegyptians , in respect of your bondage : partly , as the Babylonians , in respect of your confusion : and partly as Ieroboams Church , in respect of your Apostacy in your devised preisthood , sacrifices , and holy dayes : the Lord having appointed no such Ministery , as your preisthood , no such sacrifice as your service book , no such holy dayes , as your single , and double feasts : which you have forged of your own harts .

Touching separation from persons ceremonially polluted , it must be considered , that ceremonies have their signification , and shadowes their substance . The ceremony then was , that , † † Numb. 19. 13. 22. Lev. 15. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 19. 20. 21. &c. whosoever touched a dead person , or a person , or thing unclean , was vnclean : & whom , or whatsoever the vnclean persōtouched , that person , or thing was vnclean : so that a person vnclean did not onely pollute the thing he touched to himself , as Mr B. would haue it , but to others also : whosoever touched the thing that he touched , was polluted by it . What is then the substance of these ceremonies ? Who is now a leper , but he which hath the leprosy of sinne arysing in his forehead ? Who hath an issue of blood vpon him , but he in whose soul , and body the issue of sinne runneth vnstopped ? Who is the dead person now that may not be touched without pollution , but he that is dead in trespasses , and in sinnes ? And who toucheth such an vnclean person , if he that becomes , and remaynes one body with him , by spirituall communion , and a member of him , touch him not ? Rom. 12. 4. 5. 1 Cor. 10. 16. 17. & 12. 12. 13.

Thirdly , if separation be lawfull from persons not receiving Christ , but rayling against him , then is communion vnlawfull with any assembly in the land , wherein there are many , which remayn in vnbeleif as their works declare , Iam. 2. 20. and so receive not Christ . Ioh. 1. 12. but do on the contrary both revile and persequute him in his graces , servants , and ordinances : howsoever for fear or fashion , they be content to be accounted Christians .

Now for separation from Gentiles without Christ , & from Antichrist , vnder a shew of Christ , persecuting Christians , as the scriptures do account of antichristianism , as of haethenism in this respect , calling it * * Rev. 11. 8. and 14. 8 & 18. ● . 4 . Babylon , Sodom , Aegypt spiritually , and so warning the Lords people to come out of it : so for the second point , I do not yet beleive , whatsoever you write , but you Mr Bernard , are as verily perswaded as my self , that the Church of Engl. formally considered in her lawes , & canons ecclesiasticall , contrived , & exequuted by the prelates , & their substitutes , doth persecute Christians vnder a shew for Christ . That the Bishops make a shew for Christ , all graunt : and that they persequute true Christians , let your prisons be searched , and there will want no records : and if you yet will passe by the poor brethren of the separation , as the Preist , and Levite did the wounded man , which had fallen among theeves , Luk. 10. and will take no knowledge of vs , ask your own brethren , the godly Ministers , with whose supply against vs , you back your book , and I doubt not , but the suspensions , and deprivations of the most of them for refusing the Prelates badges , and liveries , the surplice , typpet , and the like , will testify with vs the persequutions of the Antichristian Praelacy , against Christians .

The separation you admit of in the last place is from familiar accompanying in private conversation with men excommunicate , or of lewd life worthy to be excommunicate , when neyther religion commaundeth , &c.

What Mr B. ought men to avoyd familiarity with excommunicates onely in private conversation , and not both in the private , and publique worship of God ? Is there any religious familiarity , or communion save in the Church , out of which excommunicates are cast ? The Iewes had no religious communion at all with heathens ▪ or persons † † Ezek. 44. 7 9. vncircumcised , which therefore might not enter into the sanctuary of the Lord , though you be driven in answer to Act. 21. 28. 29. to affirm they might . 2 book pag: 175. and as such , must wee account them , that refuse to hear the Church . Mat. 18. 17. And as no religious communion eyther private , or publick , may be held with persons iustly excommunicated by the Church , so neyther with such lewd persons , as deserve excommunication , and are thereof clearly convinced , though the Church want grace to cast them out . The Churches vngodly connivency , & vpboulstring them in their scandalous sinns , makes them nothing the better , but it self in truth like vnto them , as * * Deut. 7. 26. Iosh. 7. he that brought a thing abominable into his house , was accursed like it : how much more , if he eyther bring it into , or keep it in Gods house ? And how we are to avoyd persons incorrigibly wicked , whether Idolatours , Haeretiques , or prophane livers , ( the common bonds of naturall , and civill society ever kept inviolated ) which as they are to the Lord , so ought they to be vnto vs abominable ) see these scriptures , Act. 2. 40. 47. & 19. 19. Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 11. 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. Gal. 1. 8 , 9 ▪ 1 Tim. 6. 3. 4. 5. 2 Tim. 3. 2. 3. 4. 5. Tit. 3. 10. which places do not onely forbid private and voluntary familiarity , as you speak , and affirm , but religious also ( to which you vnskilfully oppose voluntary , where no society is so voluntary , as that which is religious ) and that both private and publique . Neyther is there any reason , whither we respect the glorie of God , or our own safety , or the avoyding of offence in others , or the shaming of the partyes why we should avoyd civil communion with any , and yet hold religious communion with them . To conclude , since the Lord wil be glorified by his people , not onely severally , and in their persons , but ioyntly , & in their holy communion , and hath given them in charge to exhort , comfort , admonish , & reprove one an other , as there is cause , and in the order he hath prescribed , as also according to the same order , to sequester , censure , reiect , and avoyd persons incorrigible , and infectious , the brother or brethren fayling in these duties , are steyned , and polluted , not by other mens sinns ( which can no way hurt them , or the holy things they vse , save to themselves ) but by their own swarving , and neglect , from , and of , such duties , as wherein they are to acquite themselves , in their most streyt , and sacred bond of communion . Onely before I end , I must touch one point of deep divinity set down by Mr B. Mr Bern. for the purpose in hand : which is , that the Lord takes a people to be 2. book . p. 176. his , before he commaund them : and that commaundements are for his people to rule them , not to make them his people .

But how agrees this ( to let passe his former book ) with that Answ. which he not onely writes , but substantially proves , pag. 277. of his second , that , when the L. sets vp a people to be his people , first he gives them his word , which is his ordinance to make them his people , his power to subdue them , the meanes of reconciling them , that , by which he extols a people above other people ? Well Mr B. ( to let passe your inconsiderate lightnes in those weighty matters , wherein you exceed Mr Smyth , for that , where he confutes one book by an other , you confute yours by it self , in an other place ) howsoever your nationall Church were not made the Lords people by his commaundements , but by the commaundements , precepts , and proclamations of men , yet would the L. Iesus haue his Churches gathered , and men made his people , by the publishing , & preaching of his commaundements , wherewith he furnished his Apostles for the making of disciples , by the knowledge , faith , and obedience of them . Mat. 28. 19. 20.

The ● . errour layd to our charge is , our holding , That every one of their assemblies , are false Churches .

If one of them be , then are they all , for they are all , and every one of them cast in the same mould ? We professe we put a great difference betwixt person , and person amongst you , and do not doubt ( God forbid wee should ) but there are hundreds , and thowsands amongest you , having assurance of saving grace , and being partakers of the life of God , in respect of your persons : but considering you in your Church-communion , & ordinances , we cannot so difference you , but must testify against your apostasie , as wee do . And let it not be greevous vnto you , Mr B. or vnto any other , that in this regard , we speak thus generally and alike of you all , without exception : for even your own Church intendeth you all , and every one of you alike , without exception : as appeareth , in that it appointeth one set service in so many words to be sayd , by all , and every Minister , to all , and every parish , & person in it . It appoints one set form of words , wherein all persons , without exception , must be maryed , all women without exception after child-bearing , purified : all children born in the kingdom baptized , all sick persons visited , and all dead persons buryed without exception . How shall we then sever you in the things , wherein you joyn your selves ? or put a difference where your selves put none ?

And where further ( as loath to let fall the plea of the wicked ) you Mr B. do adde , that God called Israell his people after defection , and their children in respect of circumcision his children . Ezech. 16. 21. 22. I answer , first , Answ. that the Lord did not call them his children in respect of circumcision ( for the “ “ Gen. 34. 24. Scechemitcs were circumcised , and yet were not Gods people , not their children his children ) and 2. that the Prophet speaks of the first born , which by right did in a speciall manner apperteyn to the Lord , Exod. 13. 2. though he were most injuriously defrauded of his due . Where you proceed and say , that some in the Mr. B. Acts , 19. 2. which were ignorant of the holy Ghost , were called beleevers , that is too grossely applyed to the ordinary gifts of the holy Ghost , Answ. which is meant of such extraordinary visible giftes , as wherewith God did for a time beautify the Church , which these persons also there spoken of , did afterwards receive by imposition of hands by Paul , vers. 6.

For the Churches of Corinth , and Pergamus , with whose corruptions as with a buckler , you would cover your selves , it must be remembred , that they , and every person in them , were in their constitution , separated by voluntary profession into covenaunt with the Lord , and did with their covenant receive power and charge to reform such evills , as might break out amongst them , which if they neglected , they brake covenant with God , and so forfeyted , on their part , both their covenant , and power , provoking the Lord , if they repented not to break with them , & shortly to remove their candlestick out of his place . Rev. 3. ● .

That which you adde the last , and in deed the worst of all the rest , is , that the Church of Christ , is set out even by the naming , that Mr B. is by the profession of the name Iesus Christ . Rom. 15. 20.

But the Apostle intends no such matter , but onely to magnify Answ. his Apostleship by this amongst other the notes of it , that he had preached the gospell , where before there had been no sound of it . And if the naming of Iesus Christ set out a Church , then are the Papists ( besides other haeretiques ) a true Church , for they name Iesus Christ , as oft as you , and with as many courtesies .

But things are best discerned in their particulars , and to them Mr B. you discend , saying , that that congregation which is false , hath a false head , false matter , false form , and false properties , which ( say you ) cannot be avouched against our congregations .

And what if but some of these be false , and not all ? To make Answ. a thing true must concurre all the essentiall parts , and properties : but to make it false , there needs not be all false , some few will do it . For the particulars .

You haue no false head , bycause you hold Iesus Christ , and worship Mr B. no other God , but the Trinity in vnitie .

The Papists also worship the Trinity in vnity , and in word , and Answ. in the generall , confesse Christ their head : and you in deed , and in the particulars , many of them do deny his headship .

Christ is the head onely of his body , Col. ● . 17. But the body of Christ consists not of the lims of Sathan , of which your nationall Church was for the most part gathered , & compact , after the generall apostasie of Antichrist , and of such it consists at this day : except you will deny that they are the lims of Sathan * * 2 Cor. 4. 4 the eyes of whose minds he bl●ndeth , that the light of the gospel should not shine in them : † † Ioh. 8. 44 which do the lusts of the divell , and are his children : which “ “ 1 Ioh 3. 8 commit sin : which persequute the godly , and *‘ *‘ Rev. 2. 10. cast in prison the servants of Christ . Now tell me not , Mr Bern. of the wicked persons in the Churches of Corinth , Thiatyra , and the rest ; for these Churches were not gathered of any such outwardly , and so appearing : it is blasphemy against the Apostles so to affirm : and if any appearing such were afterwards suffred , it was a ●anker in the Churches which in tyme ate out the harts of them . As therefore the Papists make the Church a monstrous body , in setting two heads over it , Christ , & the Pope ; so do you make Christ a monstrous head , in vniting vnto him members of so contrary a nature . And let the prophane world make as small account of it , as they list ; it is certayn , no false doctrine , haeresy , or Idolatry can more eyther displease , or dishonour God , and his Christ , then wretched men , in word professing his truth , and name , and in deed denying both him , and them .

Further you have not Christ the head of your Church in the administration of his propheticall , preistly , and kingly office : which I will onely point at ▪ referring the reader to such other treatises , as do more fully confirm these things , & in speciall to Mr Ainsworth his arguments disproving the present estate & constitution of the Church of England ; against which his playn proofs your idle exceptions Mr Ber. wil be as easily answered , as read .

First then , your Church admitteth not of the ordinance of prophesying , I. or teaching out of office , Rom. 12. 6. 7. which as I have formerly proved to be a perpetuall ordinance for the Church , so how profitable it is , both for the edification of them within , and conversion of them without , we find by experience , and the scriptures declare ▪ 1 Cor. 14. 3. 24. 25.

2. You silence the Lord Iesus in your Church from revealing II. the whole will of his father . A part of his word is vtterly excluded by your calender , & may not so much as be read in your Church , but is justled out by the Apocrypha writings : a greater part even the most of that which concerns the true gathering , and governing of the visible Church , though it may be read , yet may it not be faithfully taught , much lesse obediently practised : notwithstanding any charge of the Prophets , Apostles & Christ himself . Deu. 29. 29. Math. 28. 19. 20. Rom. 16. 25. 26. 2 Tim. 3. 16. 17. so that though you haue the whole will of God in your books , as Papists haue , yet in respect of the doctrine , and obedience of a great part of it , the book is sealed vp , and may not be opened . And to make vp the measure , you have in stead of the canonicall scriptures of the holy Ghost , mens Apocrypha scriptures , the books of homilies , and that of common prayers , your popish canons , and constitutions , ( which are as well the doctrine of your Church , as the canons of the Tridentine councell are the doctrine of the Church of Rome ) and ( if you will ) in stead of Prophets to teach , your significant ceremonies , the cap , surplice , crosse , typpet , which are neyther dark , nor dumb , but apt to stir vp the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to God , by some notable signification . Here is drosse for silver , and for the finest wheat , chaffe .

Lastly your Prophets which administer that part of Christs prophecy , III. or of the scriptures , which may be taught , and practised amongst you ▪ haue neyther the true office of ministery , which Christ hath prescribed , nor a lawfull calling to that they have : as hath been in part noted from Ephe. 4. and is els where clearly evinced .

Now Christs preistly office you do corrupt , and prophane vnsufferably , whether we respect the persons , or things whereof you make him a mediator .

Are those Atheists , and vngodly persons , wherewith you confesse I. in the beginning of your book , your Church is full , and which if you should deny , heaven and earth would witnes against you , are they I say , their soules , and bodyes , those * * Rom. 12. 1. & 15. 16 lively , holy , and acceptable sacrifices , and offerings sanctified by the holy Ghost ?

Are those devised , printed , and stinted collects , read out of II. your humane service-book , the † † Rom. 8. 26. 27. spirituall sacrifices of prayer , and thanks-giving , which the spirit of God teacheth the sonnes of God to offer , the fruits and calves of the lipps which confesse his name ? 1 Cor. 12. 7

Is that constreyned payment of a weekly , or monethly rate , and III. assesment for the poore ( more fitly called a malevolence , for the Heb. 13. 15 Hos. 14. 3. ill will it is payd with , then a benevolence ) that * * 2 Cor. 8. 1. 4. and 9. 5 ▪ 7 Phil. 4. 18. Heb. 13. 16 gratious cheerfull care for the saynts , that freewill offering of love , and mercy , that sweet smelling odour , that acceptable , and well pleasing sacrifice vnto God ?

Are these , I say , those sacrifices , for which Iesus Christ the eternall high preist appeareth for ever before his father in heaven , that he might offer them vnto him in the golden censure , perfumed with the odours of his own righteousnes ? or are they to be sanctified by the golden altar of his merits standing before the throne of God ? Rev. 8. 3. 4. Math. 23. 19.

A lesse indignity sure it was to lay vpon the materiall Altar in the tabernacle , or temple , doggs , swine , vultures , and all vncleane beasts , and byrds , with their durt , and dung , then thus to lay vpon this heavenly altar , those † † Rev. 18. 2 unclean beasts , and byrds , whereof Babylon is an habitation , and cage .

And for Christs kingly office , who is able to set down the indignities , & outrages offered in your Church to the scepter therof ?

For first where Christ reigneth as the King in Syon , his holy mountayn , I. ruling over his servants , and subjects onely , as “ “ Rev. 15. 3 the King of saints vnder his father , you have gathered him a kingdom , & crowned him the King thereof ( contrary to his expresse will ) of known traytours , and rank rebels vnto his crown , and dignity : even of such as do visibly , and apparantly fight for Satan , and his kingdom , the kingdom of darknes , hating , deriding , and persecuting to the vtmost of their power , all such as desire to please , and serve Christ in any sincerity . Of such , and none other , doth the body of your Church consist , for the greatest part , as all amongst you that feare God will testify with me .

2. Where Christ ruleth over his subjects by the scepter of his II. holy word , which is * * Psal. 45. 6. a scepter of righteousnes : in the place of it , the vngodly canons , and constitutions of Popes , and Prelates must , and do bear sway . Such subjects , such lawes . And say not , Mr B. as you do , in answer to Mr Ainsworth , pag. 259. that you acknowledge no other law-giver over your consciences in matters of saith , and obedience , between Christ , and you , save him alone . For what doth your Church representative but bind conscience , in binding men to subscribe to the Hierarchy , service-book , and ceremonies , spont● et exanimo ? in pressing men to the vse of things reputed indifferent , absolutely , and whether they offend , or offend not ? in tying men to a certayn form of prayer , & thanksgiving : excommunicating men for the refusall , and omission of these , and the like observances of their lawes ? And what do you but loose and vnbind the conscience , in tolerating , yea approving , yea making , and ordeyning vnpreaching Ministers , and in binding the people , vnder both civil , and ecclesiasticall penalties to their ministrations , in their own parishes , and from others ? And what do you els in your dispensations for pluralities , non-Recidency , and the like ? Are not these matters of conscience with you Mr B. wherein your lawes , and law-makers bynde and loose , as they list ? All the lawes , and ordinances for the ministery and government of the Iewish Church , were matters of faith , and obedience between God , and the Church , bynding the consciences of the people : and is the new testament lesse perfect then the old ? and the lawes , and ordinances for the administration of it lesse excellent , and of a baser foundation then the former ? It matters not what your words are , since it appeares by your deeds , that you vsurp the throne of Christ , in appointing officers , and making lawes for the government and administration of his kingdome the Church : and those many of them to the abolishing of his , herein rather holding Christ as a captive , then honouring him , as a King .

3. Where Christ hath given to his Church liberty , power , and III. commaundement , every one of them severally , and all of them joyntly to reprove and reform disorders , and whatsoever is found , whether person or thing , faulty , and disagreing vnto his word : alasse this liberty is enthralled , this power lost , this commaundement made of no force . The Prelates haue seazed all these royalties into their hands , as though they alone were made partakers of Christs kingly annoynting , & were as Kings to rule in his Church . Here is a King in a great measure without subjects , without lawes , without officers , without power .

But here I must needs observe a few things about two answers given by † † Pag. 260. 261. Mr B. in his 2. book to two of Mr Ainsworths obiections about the matter in hand . To the former being about the officers of Christ in the Church , he answereth , that they have Christs officers appointed to govern ; the civil Magistrate , the Kings Maiesty , the Mr B. ruling Elder , next vnder Christ , &c. and the ecclesiasticall governours vnder him , the Bishops , who are also Pastours , and Doctours .

But you should have considered Mr Bern. that the question Answ. is not about civill but ecclesiasticall governours . The King in deed is to govern in causes ecclesiasticall , but civilly , not ecclesiastically , vsing the civil sword , not the spirituall for the punishing of offendours . And if the King be a Church officer , then he is , first , a King of the Church : ● ▪ to be called to his office , and so deposed from it by the Church , or at least by other ecclesiasticall persons , by whom alone you will have Church officers made . And lastly , if the King be such a ruling Elder , as the scriptures speak of , he is inferiour to the teaching Elders , and deserves lesse honour then they . For so the Apostle orders things . Rom. 12. 7. 8. 1 Tim. 5. 17.

Now in making your Bishops , Pastours , & Doctours , you are double forgetfull of your self , and double injurious vnto them , and which is worse then both the rest , you sin against the Lord , & his truth . For the first , in your former book you made your Bishops cheif officers in the Church , and the successours of the Apostles , and Evangelists , and here you make them Pastours , and Teachers , which are the lowest orders of officers , that ▪ Christ gave for the work of the ministery . Ephe. 4. 11. 2. if your Bishops be Pastours , and Teachers by their office , what are you , and the rest of your rank ? You and they have not the same office , but you an office vnder them , and so Pastours and Teachers being the lowest order that Christ hath left in his Church , your order must needs be something vnder the lowest , and of an others leavings then Christs . 3. in making your Bishops the Pastours & Teachers of the Church of England , or the particular Churches in it , you lay to their charge an accusation , which they will never be able to answer at the day of the Lord , which is , their not feeding of so many thowsand sheep committed vnto them to be fedd , and taught by them . Lastly , nothing is more vntrue , and disagreable to the word of God , then that your Provinciall , and Diocesan Bishops are the Pastours , and Teachers given by Christ to his Church . There were no other ordinary officers left or appointed by the Apostles , in the Churches but such as were fixed to particular congregations , ordinarily called Bishops or Elders , Act. 14. 23. & 20. 17. 28. Phil. 1. 1. And if it can be shewed , that , by the word of God any other officers were left , or appointed in the Church after the extraordinary officers , Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , whose gifts , and places were extraordinary , besides such Bishops , and Elders , as were limited to particular Churches , I will yeeld this whole cause in the point of the Ministery , and so professe .

The other of Mr B. answer I mynd , is , about the power of Christ , against sin , Sathan , Antichrist , the want whereof , Mr Ainsw : and that truely , objecteth against the English assemblyes . Mr B. defence Mr B. summarily is , that , there is in the Church of England , the preaching of the word , which is the power of Christ , Rom. 1. 18. as also excommunication , though not in every parrish , yet in the Church of England in which is comprehended all parrishes , and all superiour power over them .

For which let the Reader observe these particulars . Answ.

First a national Church since Christs death , and the dissolution I. of the Iewish Church , is amonstrous compound , and savours of Iudaism .

Secondly , if the mayn part of the power of Christ be to be administred II. in a particular congregation , by the ordinary officers thereof ▪ namely the preaching of the gospell , why not the inferiour part , the censures also , save that the Byshops to Lord it over all , will keep this rod in their own hands ? III.

Thirdly , the Ministers whose judgments & reasons you avouch , both say , and prove , in the latter end of your book , that this power is given to a particular congregation of faithful people . pag. 180.

Fourthly , you your self lay it down as a mayn ground against IIII. popularity , and withal sundry scriptures to prove it , that Christ hath appoynted the same sorts of men in his Church for preaching , pag. 92. administration of the sacraments , and government .

Lastly it is apparant , that the particular Church of Corinth † † 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. gathered V. together in the name of the Lord Iesus , had the power of the Lord Iesus for excommunication : and so hath every other faythful assembly in the world , as they had , which since your assemblyes are not , they may want this power without any great wrong : the evil onely is , that it resteth in a worse place , then the worst parrish assembly , the Bishops court , or consistory .

I proceed . Onely my desire is , that the things which I have noted touching Christs kingly office , be the more carefully observed by all the people of God , and servants of Iesus , in respect of that most direct opposition , which in those latter dayes is made against it , and the administration thereof . For as in the first tymes after Christs comming in the flesh , his prophetical office was directly impugned , by Iewes , and heathens , so as it was † not lawful to speak Act. ● . ●2 ●3 . and ●4 . ● . 17. 18. in his name , & since that his preisthood by the masse-preisthood , & sacrifices in the popish Church , so now in the last place doth Sathan in his instruments bend his force most directly against , and with might and mayn oppose the sovereignty , and crown of our Lord Iesus that he may not rule in his Church , by his own officers , and lawes .

The matter , you say , is not false , and to shew this you note a difference Mr. B. between true matter , false matter , and no matter . As you speak that , which neyther any other , nor yet your selfe , can vnderstand of false matter , so you call them no matter , which make no profession of Christ at all , ●● Iewes , Turk●s , Pagans , and all them true matter to wit , visible , which openly professe this ●●yn truth , that Iesus the sonne of Mery is the sonne of 〈…〉 Christ the Lord , by whom onely , and 〈…〉 they shal be saved .

Many greivous errours are bound vp 〈…〉 invective of Mr Bernards , Answ. but for prophanenes , this one surmounts them all . For what can be spoken more prejudicial to the glorie of God , or deragotory to the body of Christ , h●● that any person , but pronouncing so many words , how fil 〈…〉 ious soever he be in his life , or what errours soever he mingle with this truth , is notwithstanding true visible matter of the Church , or a true member of Christs body visibly , or so far , as men can iudg , and so must be received & acknowledged .

Against this odious , and prophane errour , I wil first deal by some clear Arguments proving the contrary , and then come to the allegations he makes for his vngodly purpose .

If all , that professe this mayn truth , Iesus the son of Mary &c. be true matter of the Church , then are most notable haeretiques true matter of the Church . The Apellites , C●rdo●●ans , and Marcio●●●es holding two contrary beginnings , or Gods , the one good , the other evil : the Macedonians denying the Holy Ghost to be God : the Cer●●●hyans holding that Christ is not yet risen from the dead : the Paternians affirming the inferiour parts of the body of man to be created of the Divill : the Patric●●●● holding so of the whole body : the Novatians , and Cathari , denying repentance to them that sin : the Nicholaitans holding community of all things : the Swenk seldians , and Enthusiasts denying the outward ministery , & wayting vpon the revelation of the spirit alone : and with these many others , as ill , or worse then they , professing notwithstanding this mayn truth , as the most of them did , and do .

Then are excommunicates , true matter of the Church , though II. cast out for notorious wickednes , for many of them hold these mayn truthes , and many more , yea more then Mr B. himself doth .

Then is the true matter of the world , and lims of the Divell , III. ( for such are all wicked persons whatsoever truth they professe , Ioh. 8. 44. and 15. 19. Rom. 6. 16 2 Tim. 2. 26. 1 Ioh. 3. 8. 12. ) true matter , and members of the Church .

They that are Christs , have crucified the flesh , with the affections , and IIII. lusts of ●● . Gal. 5. 24. therfore persons visibly wicked are not visibly Christs , and so not visibly or in respect of men , true matter of the Church , or members of his body .

That which destroyes the Church , & makes it become eyther a V. false Church , or no Church at all , cannot make a true Church , or be the true matter , whereof it is made ; for these things are contrary . But wicked men , whatsoever they professe in word , make the Church a Synagogue of Sathan , and very Babylon , which is an habitation of Divils , and hold of all foul spirits , Rev. 18. 2. provokes God to remove the candle-stick that is to dischurch a people , and to spew them out of his mouth , Rev. 2. 5. and 3. 16.

Mr B. had need be a skilful workman , which can make a true Ch: of Christ , of that matter , which makes the true Churches planted by the Apostles themselves , eyther false , or no Churches at all .

They which are true visible matter of the Church , or true visible VI. christians , have Christ for their King visibly , or in outward appearance , and so far as men can judge : ( for by visible , we mean that which may be seen of men , opposed to invisible , which onely God seeth ) for Christ is not devided , but look to whom he is a Preist to save them , & a Prophet to teach them , to the same persons he is also a K. to reign , & rule over them ▪ but he is not a King to any ungodly ones , neyther doth he , but Satan , and their lusts reign over them .

If profession in word , with a wicked conversation , make true VII . matter of the Church , then an apparantly , a flat contradiction , a known sinne , & that which makes men more abhominable , makes them true matter of the Church . For he that sayth , he hath fellowship with God , or beleeves in Christ , and yet walkes in darknes , doth ly , and doth not truely , 1 Ioh. 1. 6. He that professeth Christ to be his saviour , and doth wickednes , contradicts himself ( for Christ is not a saviour of the wicked ) & sinns against the 4. commandement , in taking Gods name in vayn . Other reasons might be brought for the ●●iction of this soul , & prophane errour , for truth vnanswerable , & for number sufficient to make a volume : but these may suffice for the present : some other I will intermingle , as occasion shal be offered in the examination of that , which Mr B. brings for the confirmation pag. 112. of his assertion . For which end he sets down 4. Reasons .

The sum of the three first is thus much : viz: that Christ , & his Mr B. Apostles preaching the gospell , such as beleeved the same , and made profession of it , and of their faith , were without stay , or let , received into the Church as true matter .

We are as farr from denying this order of gathering Churches , Answ. as you are from enjoying it , Mr B : you needed not to have made three distinct proofs of this , which no man denyes : nor to have brought so many scriptures as you do , for the confirmation of that , which wee graunt with you , and practise without you . But herein you deceive the simple reader in that you separate , and disioyn those things , which then were , and alwayes should be ioyned together : and they are faith , and repentance . These two ioyntly did Christ himself preach , and Iohn Baptist before him , and the Apostles after him : and these two were preached to , and required of every one both man , and woman , which was admitted into the Church , Mat. 3. 2. 6. Mark . 1. 15. Act. 19. 4. Luke 13. 3. 5. & 24. 47. Act. 2. 28. & 8. 37. & 19. 18. But now bycause faith , & repentance are inward graces resydeing in the hart , and known to God alone , which knoweth the hart , and that the profession , and confession of them are the ordinary meanes by which these hidden , and invisible graces are manifested , & made visible vnto men , there was no cause , but they , which made this profession to men , in sincerity , so far as men could judge , should by men be deemed , and acknowledged for true members of Christ , and fit matter for the Lords house . And so if by any other means men manifested themselves to have fayth , and holynes wrought in them ( though they made neyther profession of faith , nor confession of sinnes ) yet were they , ( and so ought to be ) intitled , and admitted to the liberties of the Church , as appeareth , Act. 10. 44. 46. 47. And vppon this very ground also it is , that the children of the faithfull are of the Church , and baptised , though they make no profession of faith at all , bycause the scriptures declare them to be within the gratious covenant of Gods mercy , and love , and vnder the promises of the gospel , and so by vs to be reputed holy . Gen. 6. ● . & 17. 7. 8. 9. 10. Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. Act. 2. 39. Rom. 11. 16. 1 Cor. 7. 14. so that it is not for the profession of faith ▪ ex opere operate , or bycause the party professing vtters so many words , that he is to be admitted into the Church : but bycause the Church by this his profession , and other outward appearances , doth probably , & in the judgement of charity , ( which is not causlesly suspitious ) deem him faithfull , and holy in deed ▪ as in shew he pretendeth . But that a man of a known lewd conversation , & appearing still to remain in his sinne ( whatsoever in word he professeth ) should be received into the Church , ( out of which he ought to be cast though he were one of it ) or should have baptism administred vnto him , ( which is as Mr B. rightly confirms from the scriptures , the seale of the forgivenes pag. 119. 1●● . of sinns , of new birth , & of salvation , ) being judged not to have the forgivenes of sinns , nor to be born a new , nor to be in the estate of salvation , were a most desperate and prophane practise , then which I know not , whither the Divel hath brought any other into the Church , more derogatory to Gods glory , or prejudiciall to mans salvation . This were to make the way of the kingdome of heaven broad enough , by which al the Atheists in the world might enter into the Church , and certaynly would every one of them , if the Magistrate should vse his compulsive power , as it is in Engl: at this day : yea a parrat might be taught to say over so many words , yea the Divel himself ▪ ( though he were known so to be ) would not stick for his advantage to vtter them , and so might be true matter for Mr Ber: Church .

The material † † ● King . 5. 6. 17. 18. & ● . 7. 2 Ch● ▪ ● . 8. 9 . templi was to be built onely of costly stones ; of ceda●s , firres , and the like special trees , and those all prepared before hand ▪ hewed , and perfit for the building , so that neyther hammer , nor ax , nor any tool of iron , was to be heard in the house in the building of it . * By the gates 2 Chr. 2●● . of the house were the porters set , that none , that was vnclean in any thing , should enter in . Vpon the altar there might be " offered no vnclean beast , Lev. 22. 9. 20. 21. &c. and 27 1. no nor that which was clean , having a blemish vpon it . And is any rubbish , and ri●rat now good enough for this † spirituall house and temple of God , the Church , whereof the material temple was but a carnall shadow ? may the porters , the officers , let into it , the clean , & 1 Pet. 2 ● Cor. 6. 16 Rev. 11. 1. Heb. 13. ● . vnclean , without difference ? may dogges , and swyne , and all vnclean beasts and byrdes promiscuously be offered vpon * the altar we have in our spiritual tabernacle ? God forbid . And far be it from the servants of the Lord to prepare his Maiesty such a house to dwell in , or to defile his holy things with such vnclean persons , or to offend his nostrels with the stench of such sacrifices . Yea , whosoever shall bring me this doctrine , that a man of known wicked conversation , without such appearance of repentance , as the Church by the word of God , & rule of charity , is to judge true , may by warrant of the word , or practise of the Apostles , be received , and admitted into the Church , by the pratling of a verball profession , I will hold that man , yea though he were an angel from heaven , accursed .

And for the places which Mr B. brings for this purpose , they are so evident against him , as when I read them , I do even wonder , with what conscience , modesty , or wisdome , he could set them down . They do speak in deed of faith , and the profession of faith , in , and by such , as were received into the Church : but of what fayth ? of a dead faith without works , as “ “ Ch. 2. 26 Iames speaks ? or fruitfull in evil works , which is worse ? nothing lesse , but of such a faith , as hath the expresse promise of * * Act. 15. 9. Gal. 5. 6. 1 Ioh. 5. 1 life eternall annexed vnto it , even of that faith , which purifieth the heart , and worketh by love towards God , and man .

The places of scripture are these , Rom. 10. 9. Ioh. 1. 12. & 3. 36. Ioh. 17. 3. Act. 2. 36. & 8. 37. & 9. 20. & 11. 26. & 16. 31. 33. & 19. 4. ● . & ●8 . 28. Luk. 24. 47. 1 Cor. 15. 3. & 3. 11. Godly reader view the places one by one , and see if any one of them speak of a verball faith , onely begot in the mouth , or of such a profession of faith , as hath ioyned with it a prophane conversation ; the contrary will appear as cleare as the sun , and in it , how evill a conscience this man vseth thus to pervert the scriptures to the maintenance of a vile opinion , and prophane practise .

Your 4. Reason to prove that the profession of the mayn truth before layd down is of force to make a true Christian , is , that by Mr B. it the man so professing doth differ from Iewes , Turks , Pagans , & Papists .

He doth in deed , for he is so much worse then they , by his verball Answ. profession of the truth , taking Gods name in vayn , and dishonouring it farr more then the other . 1 Tim. 5. 8. Isa. 52. 5. Rom. 2. 24. And what matter is it from whom he differs , that differs not from , but is one of the men of the world , a lim of Sathan , and an habitation of his spirit ?

Lastly , ●● fire it may be considered , whether you be not a partiall , and 〈◊〉 judge ▪ betwixt the Papists , and your selves . They for shutting ●● their works , at a third or fourth hand , with faith in the 〈…〉 f salvation , must be judged ●●●se matter , and their errour against the 〈◊〉 of faith in the Sonne of God , and destroying it , & against he truth of the gospel , bycause it is against the sacrifice of Christs Preisthood : and yet you , though you yoak Antichrist with Christ , and the Popes Canons with Christs Testament , in the spirituall government of the soules , and bodyes of his people , and so sin against the scepter of his kingdome , must be reputed true matter ; your errour no way against the nature of faith , or truth of the gospell ; as though true faith did not as well apprehend Christ a King , as a Prophet , in the cause of salvation , though not in the act of iustification : and as though the order which Christ hath left , in the Evangelists , Actes , and Epistles to Timothy , and Titus , for the gathering , and government of his Church , were not as well a part of the gospel , and so the obiect of faith as any other portion of it . Yea to conclude , I tell you Mr B. and not I but the holy Ghost ( and I pray you consider it well ) that a lewd conversation and evill conscience is as damnable a sin ▪ and as directly against the nature of faith in the sonne of God , and the truth of the gospel , and doth as plainly destroy faith , and prejudice salvation , as any eyther Popish , or other haeresy in the world . Luk. 24. 47. 1 Cor. 5. 11. Gal. 5. 19. 20. 21. Ephe. 5. 5. 6. 1 Tim. 1. 19. & 5. 8. 1 Ioh. 1. 6. But graunt ( as you would have it ) that profession in word with an apparant denyall of the same in deed , made a true Christian , or true matter of the Church , and that the Apostles built the Lords house of such stones , ( which for me to graunt were both folly , and impiety , as it is in you to affirm it ) yet would it no way advantage you , nor iustify your Church . For the profession , by which the Apostles , and Apostolike Churches received members , was voluntary , and personall , freely made by the particular persons which ioyned themselves vnto the Lord , as the scriptures by you quoted prove , as every one that readeth them , may see : but where was or is any such personall , and particular profession vsed or required of any men , or women , in the replanting of your Church after Popery ? A man may go out of these countryes wher I now live , as many do , and hyre a house in any parrish of the land ; ●e is by the right of his house , or f●rm , a member of the pa●rish Church , where he dwels , yea though he have been nousled vp all his life long in Popery , or Atheism , & though he were formerly neyther of any Church , or religion . Yea though he should professe that he did not look to be saved by Christ onely , and alone , but by his good meanings , and well doings : yet if he will come , & hear divine service he is matter , true as steel for your Church : yea be he of the Kings naturall subiectes , he shall , by order of law , be made true matter of the Church , whether he will or no.

And what profession of faith in this very case of salvation , the body of your Church makes , or would make , if men freely spake their thoughts , a Minister of good note amongst your selves shall testify out of his own experience . The person is “ “ Pag 218. Mr Nichols , who in his Plea of the innocent , expresly affirms , that conferring with the particular persons in his parish , ( after he had preached some good space amongst them ) about the meanes of salvation , of 400 communicants he scarce found one , but that thought , and professed , a man might be saved by his own w●ll doing , and tha● he trusted he did so love , that by Gods grace he should obteyn everlasting l●se , by serving God , and good prayers . Now how do these agree together ? Mr B : sayth that all professe salvation by Christ onely , and alone : Mr Nichols on the contrary affirms out of his own experience , that not one of 400 so thinks , and professes . And if he , and all the ministers in England should deny it , we out selves by our own experience know what the fayth , and perswasion of the multitude in most places is .

Now for your further reasoning , that bycause a Bishop , or two , published this , and some other mayn truthes vnto the world , with the approbation of the Parliament , and Convocation house , and that some preachers here , & there do so teach , therefore all the land so professeth , ( where many thowsands do not so much as vnderstand it ) what can be imagined more vayn ? Can men professe the truth they know no● ? What is this , but the Papists implicit faith , when men beleiv , as the Church beleiveth , though they know not what it is ? yea and worse then it also , for as we see , and know infinite multitudes beleive , and vpon occasion professe the contrary . But most vayn of all is it to affirm , that bycause a few godly martyrs have sealed vp this , & the like truthes with their blood , that therefore they that murdered them , professe the same truth , & are true Christians without any other change wrought in them for the most part , then by the Magistrates sword , and authority . You affirm by way of answer pag. 249. of your second book , that the Magistrates compulsion vnto goodnes is no hurt vnto it , neyther makes men vnholy , or lesse good , if they have goodnes in them . As it is not simply true you affirm , that the compulsion of men to the faith , doth not hurt it ; for if the causing the truth to be blasphemed be to hurt it , then the compelling of apparant wicked persons to professe the same , hurts it , as it doth both them , and the Church whereof they are ; so if the body of the land in the beginning of the Queens reign , were good , and holy at all , the magistrates compulsion wrought it in men , & made them of persequuting Idolaters , true Christians : for other mean●● intervening , or comming betwixt their profession of the masse , & of the gospell , had they none , saving the Magistrates authority .

But here I am by necessity , and in respect of the present matter in hand , drawn into Mr B. 2. book : and a great benefit were it to me , if there I might find him , ( though in both vnfound ) yet one , and the same . But a great trouble it is to walk with a drunken man , and to be bound to follow him in all his vaga●ies : so is it to deal with an adversary light headed , & dizzy with wrath , vanity , and errour , whom a man must follow in all his staggerings , and reelings to , and fro , and in all the forwards , and backwards that he makes , oft times going , and vngoing again the same by-pathes . There is no one thing wherevpon Mr B : labours more in his former book , and for which he brings more reasons , and scriptures , and those often repeated , then to prove the Church of England , or rather such particular Churches , as have the word preached in them , to be truely gathered after the suppressing of Popery , and by the order of the Apostolick Churches : both in respect of separation from Idolatours , and Antichristian Papists , pag. 108 ▪ as also by profession of the mayn truth , and sum of the Gospell , wherein they differed from Iewes , Turks , and Pagans , as no matter ; and also from Papists as false matter of the Church . pag 111. 112. 113. 116. And therefore having proved by a multitude of scriptures that the Apostolick Churches were gathered by free profession of fayth , he concludes thus of them , and of his own Church , † † pag. 113. such as make this profession , are true matter , and so are wee : for we all professe this fayth &c. But now , as though he had eyther forgotten what he wrote before , or cared not how he crossed himselfe , so he might oppose vs , against whom he hath vowed such vtter emnity ▪ he suckes in his former breath , and eats the words he had formerly vttered , peremptorily affirming in his pag. 146. ●4● . 246. 2. book , that in the reformation of a Church after Popery , there is not required any such profession , nor yet the word of God to go before their reformation , but that the feare of the Magistrates sword is sufficient to recover them , and to setle the people in order to the worship of God . The ground vpon which he builds this his new , and crosse opinion , is , the practise of Asa , Ezechias , Iosias and Nehemiah , godly Kings , and Princes of Iudah , in the reformation of that Church , after her Apostacy , in the dayes of vngodly , & Idolatrous Kings : & therevpon , taking it for graunted , that the catholique visible Ch: of Rome ( as it is called ) now is , and that the national Church of England in Queen Maries dayes and before , when Popery reigned , was , in the same estate with Iudah in her apostacy , he concludes thence , that as the Magistrates then without any voluntary profession , did by force , bring the people of the Iewes back from Idolatry to the true service of God , so might King Edward , and Queen Elizabeth by force , bring back the people of England into covenant with God , to be his true Church , without any such profession of fayth , as in the first planting of Churches , is required . We will then consider of this poynt at large , as being both weighty in it self , and having many others depending vpon it .

That Iudah was at the first , and so continued ( by vertue of the Lords Covenant with her forefathers , on his part faythfully remembred , and kept , though by her oft tymes broken ) the true Church of God , and † † Rom. 11. 16. 20. holy in the root , till she was broken of for vnbeleif , after the death , resurrection , and ascension of Christ , fully published , and confirmed by the Apostles , I graunt with him : but the same or the like things , of the Church of Rome or of England in the respects layd down , may I not acknowledg . That there was at Rome a true Church * * Rom. 1. ● 7. beloved of God , called saynts by giving obedience vnto the fayth , is apparant : but that eyther the city , or Church of Rome , consisting of many cities , and countryes , was ever within the Lords covenant , and holy in the root , as Iudah was , may I neyther acknowledg , neyther can he possibly prove . So for England , I wil not deny , but there were at the first true Churches planted in it , by the preaching of the gospell , and obedience of fayth ; and these as the other Churches in every nation , though “ “ Ioh. 15. 19. and 17. 14. 15. 16. in the world , yet not of it , but chosen out of it , and hated by it : † † Act. 10. 35. men fearing God , and working righteousnes , and so being accepted of God , in what nation soever : * * ch. 20. ●8 purchased with the blood of Christ , and so made his flock : “ “ 1 Cor. 1. 2 saynts by calling , and sanctifyed in Christ Iesus , and calling vpon the name of the Lord Iesus Christ in every place : such were † † Act. 9. 31 the Churches in Iud●a , Galily , and Samaria ; * * Gal. 1. ● . ●1. the Churches in Galatia ; “ “ Rev. 1. ● . the 7 Churches in Asia : and of such people , gathered into so many distinct assemblyes , ech entyre in her self having peculiar † † Act. 14. 23. and 20. 17. 28. Iob. 1. 1. Bishops or Elders set over her ▪ for her feeding , by doctrine , and government , did those particular Churches consist : they thus separated from the rest both Iewes , and Gentiles in every nation , whether more , or lesse , were that chosen generation , that royall Preisthood , that holy nation , and purchased people of the Lord . But 1 Th. ● . 12. Tit. 1. ● . that ever the whole nation , and all the Kings naturall subiects in it , should have been within the covenant of the Lord , & entituled by the word of the Lord , to the seals of the covenant , and all the other holy things depending vpon it , is a popular , and popish fantasy , as ever came into mans brayn : requyring a new-found land of Canaan , for a seat of this national Church , wherein no vncircumcised person may dwel ; and a new old testament , for the policy , and government of the same . And lastly it makes all one , them that Christ hath chosen out of the world , and the world ; them that fear God , & work righteousnes , and whom he accepteth in every nation , and the nation it self : the beloved of God at Rome , and the sanctifyed in Christ Iesus at Corinth , with the City of Rome , and of Corinth : then which what confusion can be greater ?

But to admit that for truth , which you so take , namely that Rome in the sence , wherein we speak sometymes was the true Church of God , as Iudah : and more specially , that the English nation was , as the nation of the Iewes , and all , and every person in it ▪ high , and low , received into covenant with the Lord , to be his people , and that he might be their God : yet can it not be sayd of Rome , that she stil remayns the true Church of God , as Iudah did in her defection : but on the contrary , as she brake her covenant with God , advancing by degrees † † ● Th. 2. 3 4. that man of syn , the sonne of perdition , and adversary , Antichrist , till he was exalted into the throne of Christ : and that * * v. 7. mistery of godlynes , in , and according to which , that Church was planted at the first , degenerated into the mistery of iniquity : so did ● Tim. 3. 16. the Lord , for her adulteryes ( wherein she was incorrigible ) when they were come to the height , break the covenant on his part and gave her , as an harlot , a bill of divorce and put her away , and her daughter Engl. with her amongst the rest .

Now for the more full clearing of this truth , I wil in the first place answer such reasons as Mr B. brings against it : and that done , lay down certayn arguments to disprove his Popish plea for that Romish Synagogue .

Onely in the mean whyle I wish him to consider , that , if Mr ●m . deserve so severe a censure , as he layes vpon him , pag. 281. of this book , for some favourable affirmations touching some things , ●● persons in Rome , he himselfe is much more blame worthy , that both professeth and pleadeth her the true Church of Christ , and in the covenant of grace , and salvation : then which what greater and more notable plea can be made for her ? Nay if it be probable , that he , which pleads for Rome , as Mr Smith doth , will in tyme ▪ become ●n love with it , and sit downe a blind Papist , it is necessary , that he which thinks it a true Church , return vnto it , from which he hath wickedly schismed , as all men do that separate from the true Church of Christ , for any corruptions whatsoever . Here I do also entreat the prudent Reader to beare it in mynd that the constitution of England cannot be iustifyed , nor she proved to be rightly gathered , but with the defence of Rome , yea of † † Rev. 1● . 2 4. that great , and purpled whore to be the true spouse of the Lord Iesus .

The Reasons by which Mr B. would prove Rome a true Church , are by him reckoned five in number ; we wil consider of them in order .

The first is taken from the first planting of that Church in S. Pauls I. tyme , by vertue of which former calling , and constitution ( sayth he ) Rome Mr B. still remaynes the Lords people , as Israel did in the wildernes , notwithstanding her idolatry .

I do answer first , that Rome ( as we now consider of it ) was never Answ. the Lords called nor under his covenant , though a Church , or assembly in that city ( or it may be more then one ) of saynts , were , and secondly , that though she were , yet is the covenant broken through her fornications , and impenitency in them , both on her part , and the Lords visibly , and she devorced long a goe , and her daughters in , and with her .

His second Reason is grounded vpon 2 Th. 2. 4. because Antichrist , II. that is , ( sayth he ) that head with his body sitteth , in the temple of God : which ( he further tels vs ) must be vnderstood visibly in respect of the truthes Mr B. of God in doctrine , and ordinances of Christ held there , of which Gods people among them partake in his mercy , to their salvation , and others from tyme , to tyme , have mayntayned openly to the preservation of some fundamental poynts of the Apostolical constitution . Wherevpon he also concludes , that since the temple of God ( typing out the Church ) wherein he sitteth , hath a true constitution , Rome and that in respect of the tyme present , hath a true constitution , and is a true Church . He might also have added , and ever shal be a true Church , for Antichrist ever shal sit there til Christs second comming . v. 8.

Many men have written much about the notes & marks of the Answ. true Church , by which it is differenced , and discerned from all other assemblyes : and many others have sought for it , as Ioseph and Mary did for Christ , with heavy hearts Luk. 2. 48. that they might there rest vnder the shadow of the wings of the Almighty , enioying the promises of his presence , and power . But what needs all this a doe ? Mr B ▪ poynts vs out with the finger a mark of the true Church , most evident , and conspicuous , and like a beacon vpon an high hill , and that is , the exaltation of Antichrist . I had thought the Churches , and † † Ex. 25. 8 2 Cor. 6. 16 people of God should have been known by his dwelling among them , & walking there , and by Christs presence * * Math. 11. 20. in the middest of them : but I now perceive Antichrists power , presence , and exaltation is a sure signe , by which the Churches of Christ must be discerned . If any therefore desire to plant his feet in the courts of the Lords house and there to abide for ever , let him be sure to chuse such a Rev. 1. 13. Church to ioyn to , as wherein Antichrist sitteth ; and so espeia●lly the Church of Rome , because he sits surest there ? And it is very like this is one reason , why Mr B. is so much perswaded of the Church of England , as of a true Church , because he thinks Antichrist sitts there in a measure : and it is not impossible , but this may have been some part of the cause , why in former tymes he was so loath to leav that Church , and to ioyn to vs , ( when he thought we had the truth ) because he perceived we wanted that prerogative of Antichrists seat , which England enioyes . But though this shew the absurdity of the opinion , yet doth it not answer the obiections . I do then answer the same in effect , which Mr B. makes his fourth Argument : namely , that , Popery , or Antichristianism begun not out of Christianity but in the Church of God : where it did also by steppes advance it selfe into the very throne of God , & of Christ : & there did in tyme , and by degrees so vniversally corrupt , and confound both persons and things , as that God could no longer be sayd to dwel there , by his visible presence , and promises , but Antichrist in his stead : having destroyed the temple of the Lord , the Church , and caryed captive his people , with the holy vessels into Babylon spirituall : as did the civil Babylonians the material temple , carying captive with them into Babylon civil , the holy vessels , and other appurtenances thereof , together , with a remnant of the Lords people , of which more hereafter . Onely I doe in the mean whyle except against two particulars in this second Argument . The former is , that Antichrist sitting in the temple of God ( viz so remayning ) is that head , with his body . 2 Th. 2. Antichrist was not in the Apostles tyme , nor in a long tyme after , a perfit man , consisting of the head the Pope , and the body , the Hierarchy ecclesiastical , but was in the seed onely , or as an embrie in the wombe , not perfectly framed , much lesse visibly brought forth , least of all grown to that height , as to iustle with Christ for his throne , yea to dispossesse him of it , as now he doth , and hath done a long season . Secondly it is not truely affirmed , that because there are some fundamental truthes of God in doctrine , and truthes in ordinances of Christ ( as you Mr B. speak ) held there , that therefore Rome is the true Church . How should Antichrist and the Divil in him , so effectually deceive with the delusion of vanity , and errour , if he did not countenance the same with some truthes ? And do you not think it possible Mr B. that any malignant , and fal●e Churches , should vsurp some truthes and ordinances of Christ which apperteyn not vnto them ? If your argument be good , the Greek Churches , the Arians , Anabaptists , Vbiquitaries , yea and all the assemblyes of haeretiques and schismatiques in the world , are true Churches of Christ ; for they all reteyn many mayn truthes , and ordinances of Christ . III.

The third Argument is , that as the children , or infants of the ten Mr B. tribes in Ieroboams Apostacy were called the children of God , by circumcision the visible seale of Gods covenant , so may the litle ones in the Romish Church be called Christs , for that they have received true baptism . And so that Rome hath a true constitution by true baptism in the children , who are Christs thereby , as the children of the Israelites were the Lords by circumcision , til by education they be made Antichristian , and by that offered vp to Antichrist , as the Israelitish children became Molechs , by their fathers offering them to him . Answ.

You do here Mr B. in the first place alter the state of the question in both the termes . The question is , whether the Church of Rome be the true vsible Church of Christ , or no. You for the Romish Church , put the l●tle ones in the Romish Church : and in stead of their being the visible Church , you tel vs , they may be called Christs . Whereas 1. those litle ones , or infants , are not the Church , but the least part of it : and secondly , they are not necessarily eyther the true visible Church , or of it , because they are Christs , ( ●● so they were ) in a respect : for God hath his in † † Rev. 18. 4 . Babylon , whic● are visible Citizens , of that visible City of fornication , ( though the Lords , in respect of election , and the beginnings of personal sanctification ) whom he therefore calls out of the comm〈…〉 ▪ of it , & the abo●●●ations therein , vnder a severe penalty . Secondly , wh●● you say , 〈…〉 the children in the Romish Church have a t●ue 〈…〉 by 〈…〉 are Christs , till by education they be made An t 〈…〉 , ●●d by it 〈◊〉 vp to Antichrist , you seem to make the Church of Rome to be , or to comprehend in it , two distinct , yea two 〈◊〉 visible Churches : a Christian Church of infants , before they be capable of education : and an Antichristian Church of those that are of rip● yeares . And yet further where you say , that i● ( for so your words are ) hath a t●●e constitu●s ●● by true baptism in their children , there it seems , you will have the parents to have one constitution , that is to be one Church , with their children , and that true , by their true baptism : and to the parents , which by their education , are Antichristian : must by the baptism of their children be made christian : and yet the children , by their parents , when they are capable of their education , be made antichristian & offred vp to Antichrist . The scriptures every where teach , that parents by their fayth , bring their children into the * * ●en. 1● . ● . Act. 1. 39. covenant of the Church , and entitle them to the promises : but that children by their circumcision , or baptism , should constitute their parents in the Church , read ● not , but in this m●ns scripture . Yo● most manifest it is every where , that wicked parents by their 〈…〉 lity , or other sinns , depriving themselves of the Lords presence , and covenant , have enwrapped their children ●●th 〈…〉 and visibly : “ “ Deut. ●9 . 29. secret things ever reserved vnto God . So † † Gen. 4. 16 ●●d ● . 2. C 〈…〉 the presence of the Lord caried his posterity with him : so ●i● Ismaell , and I●sa● theirs , the Ismaelites , and Edo●●es . And ●●th Lord dis●laym * * Hos. 2. 2. 5. the mother for a harlot , not reputing her his wife , he accounts the children no better then bastards , on whom he wil have no pity . And if the children of the Iewes be not † † Rom. 11 ▪ 17. broken of with their parents , for their vnbelief , they are successively within the covenant , and of the true Church every one of them to this day . Neyther doth this at all crosse that which els where you obiect out of the Prophet , that * * Ezek. 19 20. the soul that sinneth shall dy , & that the sonne shal not bear the iniquity of the father , &c. For first the Prophet there speaks of such a sonne as forsakes his fathers evil , & practiseth the contrary : Otherwise the Lord threatneth , that he “ “ Ex. 20. 5 wil visit the sinns of the fathers vpon the children : yet not so ; as the children are without fault , for infants new-born by Adams transgression , and their natural , and original corruption , are † † Ephe. 2. 3 Ps. 51. 5. children of wrath , and lyable to all Gods curses ; but the Lord takes occasion by the sinns of the parents to execute his iustice vpon the children , in whose punishments he also punisheth the parents themselves after a sort .

The next thing I observe in this argument is , that you affirm the children of the Apostate Israelites to be the children of God by circumcision , and infants now to be Christs by baptism , which you say also constitutes the Church : against which Popish , and anabaptistical , errour , I do iustly except . Popish I call it , for that the papists imagine that by baptism their children are made Christian soules , and in signe of that , they have the font ever standing at the Church dore : so do the Anabaptists make baptism the form of the Church , which you call the constitution , as indeed the form of a thing constituteth it , and giveth being vnto it . Wherof if I my self were perswaded , I could not defend the baptism received eyther in Rome , or England , but I must withall iustify both the one , & the other for the true Church of Christ . But against this vnsound opinion both theirs , and yours , I will lay down certayn arguments playnly proving the contrary .

And first , it is the covenant of God , which makes the Church as you your selfe both affirm , & prove , pag. 277. of your 2 ▪ book , of pag. 132. which covenant you also graunt in this place baptism to be the visible seal , as was also * * Rom. 4. 11. circumcision in those tymes ; and therefore it is not the covenant it selfe , but is after it in the order both of nature , and tyme .

Secondly , the Lord had his Church before eyther circumcision or baptism were appoynted , which is also one , and the same in essence from the beginning to the end of the world ; which it couldnot be , if eyther circumcision , or baptism , were parts constitutive , or essentiall of it .

Thirdly , † † Gen. 17 7 the Lord made his covenant ( and so admitted them into the Church ) w●●h Abraham , and his seed , to be his and their God , in their ages and generations : so that he children of Abraham , and of the Iewes , were not without the Lord covenant , and him to be their God , til the tyme of their circumcision , which was the eighth day ; but were born , yea begot in the covenant , and an holy seed : and therfore the manchilde , not circumcised the eight day , is sayd to have broken the Lords covenant , wherof circumcision was asigne . To v. 11. 14. this also add , that the Lord did admit into 〈◊〉 with himself ( accepting them to be his people ) all , and every one of 〈◊〉 Israelites in the Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. &c. wildernes , where notwithstanding all of them in comparison , were vncircumcised . Ios. 5. 2. 3. 4. 5.

Fourthly if baptism were the constitution of the Church , as Mr B. speaks , then were all heretiques , and schismatiques baptised with water , into the name of the Father , Son , and H. Ghost , true christians , and their assemblyes , true Churches of Christ : so had the ● S●●ce●●tes been a true Church by circumcision , and so * Gen. 34. 24. of the Is●●●elites or Agarians , which have retayned circumcision to this day : the same may be sayd of the E●●●ites , and Edomites , which were notwithstanding as far from being true Churches , as Mr B. is from the truth of God , in writing , a● he doth .

A fourth consideration is to be had of an affirmation by you peremptorily and absolutely made , ( as though it were without all contradiction , or limitation ) in the third argument : and that is , that the baptism in the Romish Church is true baptism . Touching which I do commend vnto the godly reader this distinction . Baptism is to be considred of vs in a twofold respect : first nakedly , and ●● the essential causes ; the matter , water ; and the form , the washing with water into the name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the H. Ghost , and in this respect , I confesse true baptism both in England and Rome . Secondly , it is to be considered of vs , 〈…〉 , as they speak , & clothed with such appurtenances , as wherewith the Lord hath appoynted it to be administred : as for example , a lawfull person by whom , a right subiect vpon which , a true communion wherein , it is to be ministred , & dispensed ; in which regards , neyther I can approve it , nor Mr B. manifest it to be true , eyther in Rome , or England . When † † 2 King . 25. 9. 15. Ier. 52. 13. 18. the house of the Lord at Ierusalem was destroyed by the C●aldees , and the vessels therof , together with the people , caryed into Babylon , they remayned still , both in nature , and right , the vessels of the Lords house : though in respect of their vse , or rather abuse ▪ they became * * Dan. 5. 2. 3. Belshazzars , qua●fing bowles . So is it in the destruction of the spirituall house of the Lord , the Church , by the spirituall Babylonians , and in the vsurpation , and abuse of the holy vessels , and in special of this holy vessel of baptism .

Yet is there in this poynt a further consideration to be had of vs , vnto which both the scriptures , and our own experience do lead vs : namely that , as the Lord hath his people in Babylon , his , I mean , both in respect of election , and of personal sanctification : so hath he for their sakes there preserved ( notwithstanding all the apostacy , and confusion , which is found in it ) sundry his holy truthes , and ordinances , amongst which baptism is one . But as this his people , being commingled with the Babylonians in one visible communion , cannot be called the true visible Church of God ; so neyther can these ordinances , in the administration of them , be called the true visible ordinances of Christ , and of his Church : but as the Lords “ “ Rev. 18. 4. people are commaunded to goe out of her , and to † † 2 Cor. 6. 17. separate themselves , and so to build the Lords house a new in Ierusalem , or rather themselves , into a new * * 1 Pet. 2. 5. 2 Cor. 6 16. spiritual house for him to dwel in ; so are they to bring with them out of Babylon these ordinances , and in particular this ordinance of baptism , and to enioy the same ( being sanctifyed ) in the right vse , and order . All which was livelily shadowed out in the materiall temple , and ordinances as appeareth Ezra 1. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. and 5. 13. 14. 15. And this also may serv for answer to that you bring in your second reason for the iustification of Rome in respect of the truthes of doctrine , and ordinances there .

In your fourth argument there is litle but the answer ( of which Mr. B. I formerly spake ) vnto the second ; to wit that antichristianism begun in Christianity , which is true , as sowernes begins in wine , til by degrees Answ. it turn it into vineger : and as other haeresies begun in the Eastern Churches , which have notwithstanding long since eaten out the hearts of them , that they cannot , nor could not of long tyme be called the true Churches of Christ . True also is it , which you say that antichristianism doth not wholy disanul christianity : for if it did , it were not possible it should deceive so effectually as it doth . How should the Divil be beleeved in so many lyes , if he should not in some things speak the truth ? But where you further adde , that Poperie is nothing , but idolatrous , and he●itic●l corruptions vpon the profession of Christian fayth , covering it with the same , as Iobs body was with sores , and in the more large application of that Simile , pag. 245. do affirm that as he , though covered over with botches , and sores , so a● he could scarce be known by his freinds , was Iob stil vnder the sores , and the very same essentially , that he was before , so ●s the Church , and christianity in Popery , ●hough covered with the antichristian corruptions , which Sathan hath brought over them , in so saying , you are like your selfe , onely constant in inconstancy , and errour . And tell me I pray you Mr B. is the Popes vniversal supremacy , and headship over all Churches , by which also he claymeth power of both the swords , onely a s●ab vpon the skin of the true ministery , which Christ hath left in the Church , without preiudicing the essence or nature of it ? Is the sacrifice of the masse onely , a soar brought vpon the Lords supper , vnder which notwithstanding it lyes the very same in nature , and substance , which was by Christ ordeyned ? Is prayer vnto saynts onely a corruption come vpon true prayer , but no more against the life of it , then Iobs vlcers were against his life , or doth it not destroy the very soule , and life of prayer ? Is adoration of saynts , service in an vnknown tongue , with all other the abhominations in the masse-book , but as a scurf come over that true worship of God wherwith he wil be worshipped ? Iohn . 4. 23. 24. vnder which the very same true worship lyeth ( as Iob did vnder his soares ) which God hath commaunded , & that without any more daunger of losse of life , then Iob was in by his outsyde skabs ? Lastly , is the opinion of iustification by works , onely a botch , and byle vpon true fayth , but not against the nature of it ▪ nor destroying the essence of it ? Your errour is sufficiently convinced in the recital and opening of it , in these particulars : your inconstancy , and contradiction is most notorious in the last of them , compared with that you wryte , pag. 113. of your former book ; namely , that the ioyning of works in the cause of salvation , which the Papists do , is against the true nature of fayth in the son of God , and destroyeth it . V.

That which you call your fifth reason hath no countenance of Mr B. a reason in it , but is meerly a conclusion inferred by you vpon your 4 former reasons , to prove Rome , in respect of the tyme pr●●ent , a true Church : and the sum of it is ▪ that the Churches now coming out of Babylon , do not requyre any n●w plantation , but onely a reformation , as did Iudith in the tyme of Hezechiah , after the apostacy of Idolatrous Ahaz , and of the people w●●h him . But since the reasons wherwith you would vnderprop this your inference , are taken away , it must needs ●●ll to the ground . Neyther will your Babel stand any whit the stronglyer for the † † Ezek. 13 10. daubing you make with this , and the like vntempered morter , that it hath not made a nullity of religion : that it hath not lost the Apostolical constitution totally : that it holds truthes sufficient to iudg men christian by , the corruptions being taken away .

For first , what matters it , though Rome have not made a nullity , if it have made a falsity of religion , by most grosse vntruthes , haeresyes , and Idolatryes , making voyd the commaundements of God by mens traditions : and teaching for doctrines , mens precepts ? And secondly what though the constitution be not totally lost ? If an house , or material building be not totally demolished , but there stil remayn some few postes , or studdes not yet puld down , or some few stones of the foundation vndigged vp , is it therfore truely an house , and so to be called ? Lastly doth it follow , that , because Papists might be iudged true christians for the truthes they hold , their corruptions being taken away , they are therefore such with their corruptions : so the vilest haeretique , Idolater , or other miscreant in the world , take away his haeresy , Idolatry , and mischeif , may be iudged a christian : yea the Divil himself , take but away his corruptions , is a glorious Angel of light .

Having thus answered the reasons brought by Mr B. to prove Rome a true Church , and the like , I will in the next place lay down such arguments from the scriptures , as manifest the contrary , and those also taken out of his own writings , for the further discovering of his vnsound , and deceitful dealing with men , in the Lords matters .

And first in his cathechism printed 1602. pag. 1● . he demaunds I. this question . ●● the Church of Rome a true Church of Christ ? whervnto he answereth . No ; but of Antichrist the Pope the cheif teacher of the doctrine of Divils . And in the same place to prove that religion a false religion , he brings 7. general reasons very weighty , all , and every one of them , as he that reads the place , shal finde .

Secondly , in his seperatists s●hism , he makes as Iewes , Turks , and II. Pagans , no matter , so Papists false matter of the Church , and contrary to true matter , in that they ioyn with Christ , their works in the cause of salvation . pag. 111. 112. 113 , 116.

Thirdly , he affirms in his last book pag. 277. that the covenant III. betwixt God , and the people is the form of the Church ; and proves , that this covenanting mutually doth give a being vnto a people , to be Gods people Deut. 29. 12. 13. To this let that be added , which he wrytes pag. 281. of the same book , namely that the Papists have not the same word , and fundamental poynts of the covenant , with them in England . And in particular , that they make a covenant with Angels , and Saynts , and so hold not the person in the covenant : that they make another word even mens traditions , the declaration of the covenant , and so change the evidence : that they make moe s●craments , and so adde counterfeyt seals , turning the Lords supper into a Popish sacrifice , and so do tear off the Lords seal , and make it nothing worth : and pag. 280. these three , namely the person , the wryting , and the seals he makes the foundamental poyn●s of the covenant , as wherein the foundation therof doth stand . And who now seeth not , how this man is first constrayned to plead for Rome as a true Church , to defend the Church of England , and afterwards being ashamed of that plea , to condemn it as a false Church , corrupt , and counterfyet in the very foundation , and form , which gives the being , as he himself speaks .

Fourthly , he graunts in these his * * pag. 161. playn endeavours , that Rome is IIII. Babylon , and that the H. Ghost so calls it , and applyes rightly the places literally spoken of the type the heathe●ish Babylon ; spiritually to the thing signifyed , the Antichristian Babylon , the Romish Synagogue . And the same thing , the wrytings of the godly learned , both at home , and abroad do confirm . No● what can be more playn ? Is it possible that Rome should be both Babylon , & Ierusalem ? both the Synagogue of Antichrist , and the Church of Christ ? Can that Catholick visible body , the Church of Rome , ( as it is called ) vnder that visible head , Antichrist the Pope , be the true visible body of Christ , vnder him the head ? The Apostle wryting vnto the Galatians , calles the Church of the new ●estament † † Ch. 4. 26 Ierusalem , which is above , & the mother of the ●aythfull : and Iohn in the book of * * ch. 14. 8 ▪ and 15. 2. with ch. 21. 2. 3. the Revel●tion , opposeth vnto Babylon spiritual , the ●●w Ierusalem comming down from God out of h●●ven : and the tabe●n●●le of God , where he dwelleth with men , making th●m his people , and himself 〈…〉 heir God . Now as the people of God in old tyme , were called out of “ “ I●r. 50 8. 9. 10. &c. and 51. 6. 7 8. 9. Is●y . 21 9. Babylon civile , the place of their bodily bondage ; and were to come † † E●ra . 1. 2. 3. 5. &c. to Ierusalem , and there to build ● new the Lords temple , or tabernacle , leaving Babylon to that destruction , which the Lord by his servants , the Prophets , had d●nounced against it : so are * * R●v . 14. 8. and 18. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. and 1● 2. 3. the people of God , now to g●●e out of Babylon spiri●●●● , to Ierusalem , and to build vp themselves as lively stones into a s 〈…〉 , or temple for the Lord to d●vel in ▪ leaving Babylon to that d●●truction and desolation ( ●ea furthering the same ) to which she is devoted by the Lord . B●● if the people of God should receive Mr B. doctrine , they were not to come out of Babylon , nor to endeavour her destruction , but to tarry in her still , labouring for her reformation , and the reparation of her decayed places : neyther were they to build my new spiritual temple , or to constitute any new Church from Rome present , ( for of such a new constitution we speak ) but there to abyd● , reproving her corruptions , and endeavouring the reformation of them . It is therfore vntrue which you ●●y Mr B. “ “ pag. 133. that ▪ the Romish Church must be dealt with onely , as the Church of God was in Iud●th : it must be dealt with as was Babylon , e●en abandoned and forsaken by the Lords people , vpon p●●ill of the curses , and plagues due vnto it , and denounced against it , and against all that abyde in it .

To this which Mr B. in this place so greatly contends for , namely tha● Rome is the true Church of Christ though under corruptions , as Iob was a true man vnder his sores , let that be added which he wryteth els where in this book that † † pag. 265 corruptions are made matter of reproof , but no cause of separation from the Church : and further that * * pag. 110. 111. they that separate from a true Church , the body , cut of themselves from Christ , the head : and to these two a third graunt , and profession he makes , as that their “ “ pag. 114. profession , and lawes in England separate a protestant , from a Papist : that the Church of England is separated by profession ▪ lawes , and publique m●etings from Papists : that † † pag. 129. the very societyes of Papists are to be left as no people of God , and his writings will appeare to all men like a beggars cloak patched together of old , and new * pag. 142. peices , scraped vp here and there , scarce two of the same eyther colour , or thread . Let me a little stich his patches together , and set them in some order .

They that separate from the true Church , cut of themselves from Christ . Mr B. pag 110. 111.

But the Church of England in separating from Rome , is separated from the true Ch: Mr B. pag. 114. 129. 14● . with 131. 132. 133.

Therefore by Mr B. both graunt and proof the Church of England is separated from Christ .

And is this your piety , and thankfulnes Mr B. towards your mother , for want of which you cast so many bitter curses vpon the separatists ? you are so far caryed in honouring your grandmother Rome , as a true Church , that you clean forgot your mother England , and condemn her for a schismatical Synagogue . Yea well were it , or at the least more tolerable in you , if you thus dealt onely with your selfe , and your owne , but this vile iniury which you here offer , extends it selfe far , and nere , even to Luther , Zuinglius , and the other godly guides of separation , and to all the reformed Churches separated from the Church of Rome , yea to the martyrs in King Henryes , and Queen Maryes dayes , and to all other the like godly mynded , through the whole world , whom you condemn as wicked schismatiques and separated from Christ the head , in separating themselves from his body , your true Church of Rome . VI.

Lastly the Apostle Paul wryting to the Church of Rome in her first , and best estate , praemonisheth her to stand fast in the fayth received , least he , which had * * Rom. 11. ●7 . 20. ●1. not spared the natural branches , the Iewish Church , but broken them of for vnbel●if , should not spare the wild branches . whereof she consisted . How then Mr B. can you deny , that Rome is , and hath been long , broken of , which so long hath ●●yned works in the cause of salvation , which you your selfe affirm to be against the true nature of fayth , in the ●o●● of God , and that which destroyeth ●● ?

And that all may take knowledge , how the Lord dealeth with his Churches vnder the new testament , and may learn both to fear in themselves , and how to iudge of the present state of Rome , let it be observed , what Christ Iesus by his servant Iohn wryteth vnto the Churches in Asia , especially † † Rev. ● . ● . v. 4. to the Church of Ep●esu● : which he having blamed for leaving her first love , exhorts to repentance and to the doing of her first workes , threatning withall , that otherwise he will come against her shortly , and remove her candlestick out of the place , except v. 5. she amend . The same thing in effect he denounceth against v. 12. 16. the Churches of Perga●us , and Thya●yra , and so against the rest , vpon the like occasions . And if the Lord dealt so severely with the v. 18. 2● . 2● . Church of Ephesus , notwithstanding the many excellent things , which were found in her , and so acknowledged by the Lord himselfe , v. 2. 3. as to remove her candlestick. 1. to dis-church her , as ch. 1. 20. for leaving her first love , and that speedily , except she repented , how can it be that the golden candlestick should stil stand in Rome , and shee remayn the Church of Christ , which so many hundred yeares since , hath left not onely her first love , but her first fayth also ? chaunging her fayth into haere●y , and Idolatry , and her love into most bloody , & cruel persequutions against all that have endeavoured her repentance , and so hath continued a long space , and doth continue at this day . None but professed Romanists will plead , any Charter for Rome above other Churches . These things thus opened , and these two capital errours confuted , the former Iewish , namely , that England now is , as Iudah was : and that as then , all the Iewes in that nation , so now all the English men in the Kings dominions should constitute a national Church : the latter Popish , viz. that the Romish Church is the true visible body , or Church of Christ ; it is evident , both that the Evangelical Churches must be new planted , or constituted , by profession of fayth , as the temple , was new built , after the captivitie of Babylon ; as also that not Iosiahs sword , that is the coactive lawes of men , but Pauls word , even the preaching or publishing of the gospel , is the proper means , which the Lord hath sanctifyed for that purpose , though , I doubt not , but there both hath been , and is , great vse of the Magist●●●●● authority for the furtherance of the gospel that way .

When the Lord Iesus purposed to advance the scepter of his king ●●me , he sent out his Apostles , not furnished with sword , and ●p●●● , no● yet backed with humayn lawes , or authority , but with ch●●ge , and commission , to publish , and declare his holy comm●●nd●ments , and the things which he had taught them , and th●reby to 〈◊〉 Disciples , or gayn subiects vnto his kingdom ▪ Math. 2● . 19. 2● . which they also practised , admitting , and initia●ing m●n into ●●● Church vpon their voluntary submission vnto , and 〈◊〉 of the ●ayth of Christ .

N●●●● vnto ●●● be added a second consideration , namely , where , and , to ●●● a the Apostles were first to preach and to 〈◊〉 th● 〈◊〉 commission received from Christ , it wil both g●ve ligh● to the ●o●nt in hand and discover the vanity of a distinct●●n in Mr B. ● book , to which he trusteth much , and therefore ●●th o●t , ●●r the gathering , and establishing of Churches after the P 〈…〉 , by fy●● , and sword , without any further respect , then the magistrates authority ▪ the summe whereof , as also of that he infe●reth upon it , is , that to pag. 14● . 14● . 16● . a Church in the f●●●t 〈◊〉 , that i● , as ●● e●pound● himselfe , gathered of in●i●els , and of such a people ●●●re no Church , 〈…〉 , there is required preaching , and 〈◊〉 going b●fore with the word , and profession of the name of Christ : but for a people that are not infidels , but Christians ( h●● corrupt soever ) a●● a Church , ●● su●h preachi●● on the one side , n●● 〈◊〉 of ●●yth , on the other , is r●q●ired : 〈…〉 compel with the feare of the sw●●● , the Magistrate , authority is sufficient in such a case ▪ Let the Reader behold this bold mans grosse ignorance , and contradi●tions , and if he wil not open his eyes to see them ▪ he m●y feel them with his hand , so palpable are they . I wil lay them down in these particulars . ●●●st he affirmeth , pag. 176 ▪ that , the Lord ta●●s a pe●ple to be 〈…〉 and that comm●●●dements , are for his people to ●●●●●●●m , and n●t to make them 〈…〉 ma●s comma●ndeme●t mak●s not a servent , but decl●●es such a one to be ●is ●●●vant already : and so he gives God not more power to commaund the wicked , and vnbeleevers , then a man hath to commaund another mans servant : and yet here he tells vs , that before a people can become a Church , Paul must goe with the word : and expresly , pag. 277. that the Lord , to make m●n his people , gives t●em his word , and quo●es , Math. 28. 19. to prove it . Secondly by this his distinction , and his inferences vpon it , he makes all the Iewes , to whom Iohn Baptist , Christ , and the Apostles preached , and which were baptised by them , or any of them , to have been Infidels before , and n● Church , no Christian● . And ●● he affirms directly , pag. 262. ( though I suppose he consider●t not ) where , in answer to a proposition of Mr Aynsworthes , that the Churches of Christ were established of saynts onely , & men visibly 〈◊〉 , confirmed amongst other scriptures , by Math. 3. 6. he p●●emptorily avouches , and so builds vpon it , that that , p●oposition , & scripture , amongst the rest , is to be vnderstood of a people , A●● . 1. 39. and 3 25. 1 ●●● . 1● . ● . 4. Eph. 3. 6 which is no Church & no Christians : & so the Church of the Iewes at that tyme , must be no Church , and they no Christians with this man , ( for of them that scripture speaks ) whatsoever Peter and Paul say to the contrary . Thirdly , since the Apostles being sent by Christ to teach , and make Disciples , were to begin their ministration amongst the Iewes in * * I●d 24. 4● . A●● . 2. 1. 2. 5 6. — 14. ●● . 〈…〉 3. ● . 14. Ierusalem , Iudea , and else where ; ( which is the consideration , I formerly mentioned ) and so by the publishing of the gospel of fayth , on their part , and by the profession of fayth , and confession of sinns on the peoples part , to gather , and establish particular A●● . ● . ●● . Gal. 1. 21. Churches : and that the Church of the Iewes was at that tyme the Church of God , in respect of which , the establishing of these particular Churches was no new plantation , but a continuation of their former ingra●●ing in the same root , wherein they formerly were planted , not differing from it essentially , but being onely reformed , perfited , and otherwise ordered then before : it appeareth most vntrue , which Mr B. affirm●th , that the preaching of the gospel is onely necessarily required for the planting of Churches of such people , as were formerly infidels and no people of God . Fourthly , and lastly , even that which he most freely graunts in one 146 pag. namely , that at the first , the word must be preached , and by that means men brought to a voluntary 〈◊〉 without compulsion , that he vtterly reverses , and denyes in the very next * * 14. 7. pag where pleading the proclamation of Hezechiah , and compulsion of Iosiah , he annexeth to the same purpose as cunningly , as his wit wil serve , an insinuation , that Mordecai ( for feare of whom , he sayth , many of the heathen ( for such the people were ) became Iewes ) procured of the King proclamations , and other statutes , for the compelling of his subiects to the Iewish religion : wherein he both perver●s Est. ● . 4. the words , as the reader may see , and the meaning also of th● scripture ▪ which is , that the heathen observing the myghty and mervelous hand of God for his people , and against his and their enemyes , many of them became Iewes , and † † Ezra . 6. 21. separated themselves vnto them , from the 〈◊〉 of the heathen of the land , to seek the Lord God of Israel : as also in alleadging to the same purpose , Luke 14. 23. as he doth in another place : borrowing ( as it seems ) the corrupt exposition of that scripture from the Ministers whom ●e drawes in with him , in his * * pag. 1●5 . former book : of which more in due place .

But that I may not be caryed too far in this my digression , I do first deny , that the reformation by Queen Elizabeth ( though great in it selfe and she for it , of blessed memory ) did in any measure equalize the reformation made by Hezechiah , Iosiah , and N●he●yah , in whom you most insist Mr Bernard . For whereas all reformation respects eyther persons or things , that which was wrought by these godly Kings , and governours , receives testimony from the H. Ghost himselfe , to have been most full , and intyre , both wayes . And to let passe , for brevityes sake , the things themselves , with referring the reader to these and the like “ “ 2 King . 1● . 3. 4. 5. 6 2 Chr. 29. 2. 3. 5. 19. 20. 21. &c. and 30. 1. 2 &c. and 31. 1. &c. scriptures , which handle that part , I wil insist a litle vpon the persons , about whom the question here is , between Mr B. and me , in whom the other parte of reformation is to be considered ; which wil better appear , if we compare together officers with officers , and people ● King . ●● . ● . and 23. 1. 2. 4. 5. 6. 7 8. -24. 25. with people . And first it is evident in the scriptures , that those Kings , & Princes of Iudah , did not apoint any other Preists , eyther for the purging of the temple , or for any other Preistly work , whither of reformation , or administration , then the Levi●es , whom the Lord 2 Chr. 3● . ● . 3. 4. 5. ●●3 . had chosen to stand before him , to serve him , and to be his Mini●●ers , and to ●●●●●ncense , 2 Chr. 29. 4. 5. 11. And therfore when some that pretended they were Levites , could not † † Ezra . ● 61. by searching ▪ find the writing of their genealogy , they wer● put from the Preisthood : & for the Preists of the high places which had gone astray after Idoles in the tyme of Apostacy , & served them , & caused the people to fal into iniquity , if they were not Levites , and called of God , but of Ieroboams institution , they themselves were * * 2 King . 23. 20. sacri●iced vpon the altars , with which they had so provoked the Lord : and though they were Levites , and the anoynted of the Lord , and so had their lives spared vpon their repentance , yet were they deposed from their holy ministration , and “ “ vers. 8. 9 came not near vnto the Lord any more , ●er vnto any of his holy things in the most holy place , but Ezech. 4 ▪ 10. 13. were to bear t●●●r shame , and their abhomm●tions , which they had wrought . But what answerable vnto this can be brought forth in the reformation of the English Iudah ? wherein the Preists of as ill an institution , or worse , then Ieroboams , even the institution of Antichrist , were continued in the most solemn administrations : yea both those which had been ordeyned , and made in Queen Maryes dayes , for their breaden God , and those which had fal● back from that profession of the truth they made in King Edwards dayes , and caused the people to fal into iniquitie : ( which makes the mischeif much the greater ) both they of the one kynde & of the other , being for the most part , ignorant , prophane , and popishly affected : as though eyther the sacrifice of the masse had been no Idol , or that the Lord had layd no shame , or other burthen vpon such Idolatrous Apostates , and seducers .

Now for the people ( entreating the reader to bear in mynd what I have formerly manifested , as that neyther the whole English nation ever was the Lords true visible Church , as the Iewish nation was , nor if it were at the first could so remayn in the deep Apostacy of Antichrist ) I do adde , that no man can by the word of God affirme the same things in any measure of the people of England in the beginning eyther of King Edwards or Queen Elizabeths reign , which the scriptures d● of the people of the Iewes in the tyme of Hezechiah , Iosiah , Nehemiah , and other the like godly instruments of reformation .

First for Hezechiahs tyme , it appeareth that after † † 2 Chr. ●9 5. 12. ●1. ● . the Levites ●ad sanctifyed themselves , and the house of the Lord , they offred after al solemn manner ▪ ●s●●n offering for the kingdome , and for the sanctuary , and ●e● . 4. for Iudah : the King ▪ and the congregation laying their hands vpon the sacrific●s , thereby confessing that they were guilty of death , and deriving their guilt vpon the goats in figure , but vpon Christ in truth , 〈…〉 ▪ 31 ▪ 35 36 whom they figured : and afterwards when the congregation was to ●●●●g sacrifices , and every one that was willing in hart , burnt offerings , it is sayd the burnt offerings ●●re many , yea so many , as the Preists were not able to s●●● them all : and that all the people reioyced , that God had made the people 〈◊〉 . Adde vnto this that which is written chap. 30. v. 11. 12. that d●●●rs of Ash●● . M●nasseth , and Z●bulun did submit themselves vnto the counsel of Hezechiah , and that willingly , ( for he had no authority over them at all ) and came to Ierusalem , of whom the Lord also testifieth that they † † 〈…〉 . prepared their whole heart to seek the Lord God , &c. and for Iudah ▪ that the hand of God was with them , ●● that he gave them one hart to do the commaundment of the King , and of the rulers , according to the word of the Lord : and lastly that the whole assembly kept the passeover with ioy , and that * * 〈…〉 all the congregation both straungers , and those that dwelt in Iudah reioyced with the Preists and Levites , who also blessing them , had their voyce heard in heaven , and their prayer in the Lords holy habitation . And for Iosiahs tyme , it is written , that , ● Chr 34 ▪ 30 31. 32 he , the Preists and all the people from the greatest to the s●●lest went vp into the house of the Lord , & that he read in their eares all the words of the book of the covenant , and that he stood by his piller , and made a covenant before the Lord , to walk after the Lord , and to keep his commaundments and his testimonies , and his statutes , with all his heart &c. & caused , or appoynted ( for the word signifieth no more ) all that were found in Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand vnto it : and that the inhabitants of Ierusalem did according to the covenant of God , the God of their fathers . Thirdly for the estate of the people in Nehemiahs tyme , with whom also I ioyn Ezra in the work of reformation , first , it appeareth , 〈…〉 . 2● that none were constrayned to return to Ierusalem for the building of the Lords house ; but † † 〈…〉 . such amongst the people , as would , and with . whom their God was ▪ were by the proclamation of Cyrus to return : and secondly that * Ezra and such as went with him did , before their jorney , humble themselues by fasting before the Lord , for direction : and that , when they were come to Ierusalem , there was much weeping and wayling by him for the sinns of the people ( especially for that great trespasse they had committed , in taking strange wives of the people of the land ) together with great manifestation , and practise of repentance , by all the congregation : and afterwards in the book of † † 〈…〉 2. 3. 4. 5. ● 7. ● . 9. 1● . ●7 . Nehemiah , when all the people were assembled together in the ●●ry street , the same Ezra , and the Levites with him , read , and expounded the law ●● to them , to the great humbling of all the people at the first , and afterwards to the great reioycing of them all , when they vnderstood the words , which were taught them : and thus they practised every day , even from the ● 18. first day vnto the last , all the seven dayes , whylst the f●●st 〈◊〉 : and in the last place , and for the shutting up of all , confessing their sin●s , chap. ● . 1 2 ch. 1● . 1. 2● 29. and the iniquities of their fathers , with fasting , sackcloath , and earth vpon them , they made a sure covenant , and w●●●●e it , sealed it , and swore vnto it , the Princes , Levites , Preists , and people all that were separated from the people of the ●●●d ▪ vnto the law of God , their wives , sonnes , and daughters , all that could vnderstand , the cheaf for the rest , that they would walkin Gods law which was given by Moses the servant of God , to observe and d●e all the commaundements of God , and his iudgments , and statutes . Vnto these former scriptures I wil annex one other of the same nature with them , and respecting the case of reformation . It is recorded therefore of * * 2 Chr. 14 2. ● . 4. Alia a godly King of Iudah having in the beginning of his reign , abolished idolatry , ●● the monuments of it , and commaunded Iudah to se●k the Lord God of their fathers , &c. that afterwards vpon the " ch. 1● . 8. 9. 12. 13. 1● exhortation of the Prophets Azariah , & Obed , he not onely went on with that work , but * assembled together all Iudah , & Beniamin & 〈…〉 which had 〈…〉 out of Israel , when they saw the Lord his God was with him ▪ & that they made a covenant to seek the L. God of their fathers , with all their hart & with all 〈…〉 & that whosoever would not seek the L. God of 〈…〉 , whether he were ●●●al or great , man or woman : & the same covenant with the Lord being confirmed by an oth , it is sayd , that all Iudah reioyced at the 〈…〉 & the reason is added , for they had sworn vnto the Lord with ●●● their 〈…〉 , and fought him with a whole desire , & he was found of them . The Lord ▪ as he had chosen this whole kingdome to be his people , and raysed vp this ▪ and the like notable instruments of reformation amongst them , so did he vpon this and the like occasions work a most wonderful , and extraordinarie work vpon them , bowing their harts vniversally to the love of his word , for the present , and to the receiving of the same with ioy , together with all readines vnto the obedience of his commaundements : the like vnto which never was , nor shal be seen , to the end of the world in a whole kingdome except the Lord do again chuse one nation from all other nations to be his people , as then he did . And I am verily perswaded that Mr B. ( how bold soever he be in his affirmations ) will not say the like of all England , eyther in the beginning , or end of King Edwards , or Queen Elizabeths reign , which the scriptures themselves here , and els where , do testify , of all Iudah : whither we respect the disposition of the people whose hearts vniversally the Lord on his part did thus affect ; or the solemn covenant , which they on theirs , did contract , or rather renue with him . And here I do further also infer , since all Iudah reioyced at the oath of the covenant , and swore vnto the Lord with all their heart , and sought him with a whole desire : 2 Chr. 15. 13. and that the hand of God was in Iudah , so that he gave them one heart to do the commaundement of the King , and of the rulars according to the word of the Lord : Ch. 30. 12. and so at other tymes , that it is most vntruely affirmed by Mr B. how oft soever he repeat it , that the reformation of Iudah was not voluntary , but of compulsion , and of fear . True it is , that the Kings of Iudah made compulsive lawes for the reformation of the people , or rather for their continuance in that reformation , to which they had voluntarily submitted ; but as Mr B. ignorance is intollerable in that his seditious errour , tending indeed to the disturbance and subversion of all states civil , and ecclesiastical , that † voluntarinesse is taken away by being vnder any government : that Pag. 212. to be subiect , and ruled is an estate far from fredome : and that Christians loose therby christian liberty : so should he here have observed a difference betwixt compulsion active , and passive , as they speak : or more playnly thus , that it is one thing for Kings , or men in authority , to require of their subiects the performance of necessary duties or the forbearance of the contrary , vpon such , and such penaltyes , and another thing for their subiects to obey them herein , for fear , and involuntarily . Many of the Kings lawes do require loyalty of all his subiects towards his maiesty , and do forbid vpon payn of death al treasons , & rebellions : now wil any man hereupon be so vnadvised , as to affirm , that therfore all the Kings subjects do forbear treasons and rebellions , through compulsion , and fear , and vnwillingly ? That godly magistrates are by compulsion to represse publique , & notable idolatry , as also to provide that the truth of God in his ordinance , be taught , and published in their dominions , I make no doubt ; it may be also , it is not vnlawfull for them by some penalty , or other , to provoke their subjects vniversally vnto hearing for their instruction , and conversion ; yea to graunt they may inflict the same vpon them , if after due teaching , they offer not themselves vnto the Church ; but that any King now vpon earth is by the word of God , to draw all the people of his nation into covenant with the Lord , ( how much lesse before they be conveniently taught ) and to confirm the same by oath , and to inflict death vpon all that refuse it , or remayn wicked ▪ and vnrepentant , as the Kings of Iudah were to do by the people of that nation , can never be proved by Mr B. or any other man , how oft soever they bring in their practises for presidents . And if the Kings of Engl. should hold it their duty , as the Kings of Israel held it theirs , to “ “ Ps. 101. 8 destroy all the wicked of the land , and to * * 2 Chr. 15. 12. 13. slay all that would not seek the Lord God of Israel with all their hart , and with all their soule , whether great , or small , man or woman , & should practise accordingly , they would be left barer of subjects , then I hope they shal be . To these considerations let this be added , that when David the most famous King of Israel had † † 2 Sam. 5. 1. 2. 3. 5. subdued the nations round about him , and made them tributaries , and reigned over them , he did not force them into the Church by compulsive lawes , nor take any such violent courses , that we read of . Neyther can you shift of the matter , Mr B. by alleadging that these nations were heathens , and infidels , and such as made no profession of religion , nor were circumcised : for amongst the rest over whom David ruled , the * * vr 14. Edomites are named , which were the posterity of holy Abraham , as well as the Israelites , comming of Esau , as they of Iaakob : who did also ( besides many mayn truthes ) reteyn circumcision , and that true also , as well as the Papists reteyn true baptism ; and by which they might as truely be deemed the Lords people , though in apostasie , as the Papists by the other .

To end this argument of violence in religion , to which it is very vnnaturall ; neyther Hezechiah , nor Iosiah , nor any other King , eyther of Iudah or England had , or hath power from God to compel an apparant prophane person ( so remayning ) eyther to joyn vnto , or continue in the Church , and the Church so to receive , & continue him . The Kings of Iudah as I haue shewed , were to destroy , and put to death all such wicked ones , and so to weed them out of the Church , by the sword , according to the dispensation of those tymes , to what end then doth Mr B. bring in them , & their authority , eyther for the planting , or watering of such persons in the Church , for which purpose notwithstanding he produceth them . So for other Kings , though they be not to destroy all the wicked in their land , or nation , as not being to gather a nationall Church , so are they to vse their authority for the preserving pure of the Church , & to see that wicked & ●lagitious persons be neither taken into , nor kept in the Ch: to the dishonour of God , & profanation of his ordinances . You speak much of the reformation of your Church after Popery . There was indeed a great reformation of things in your Church , but very little , of the Church , to speak truely , and properly . The people , as I haue sayd , are the Church : and to make a reformed Church , there must be first a reformed people : and so there should haue been with you by the preaching of repentance from dead works , and faith in Christ : that the people ( as the Lord should haue vouchsafed grace ) being first fitted for , & made capable of the sacraments , and other ordinances , might afterwards have communicated in the pure vse of them : for want of which , in stead of a pure vse , there hath been , and is at this day a most prophane abuse of them , to the great dishonour of Christ , and his gospell , and to the hardening of thowsands in their impenitencie . Others also indeavouring yet a further reformation , have sued , and do sue to Kings , and Queens , and Parliaments , for the rooting out of the Prelacy , and with it , of such other evill fruits as grow from that bitter root : and on the contrary to have the Ministery , government , and discipline of Christ set over the Parishes , as they stand : the first fruit of which reformation , ( if it were obteyned , ) would be the further profanation of the more of Gods ordinances vpon such , as to whom they apperteyned not , and so the further provocation of his great Majesty vnto anger , and indignation against all such , as so practised , or consented therevnto . Is it not strange that men in the reforming of a Church , should almost , or altogether forget the Church which is the people , or that they should labor to crown Christ a King over a people , whose Prophet he hath not first been ? or to set him to rule by his law●s , & officers , over the professed subjects of Antichrist , & the Divel ? or is it possible that ever they should submit to the discipline of Christ , which have not first been prepared , in some measure , by his holy doctrine , & taught with meek●es to stoop vnto his yoke ? Both you Mr B : & they of the other sort do tel vs oft of the reformed Churches , and of your agreement with them . I wish to God from my very hart , that both you , and they , would compare your selves with them , in this principall point , vnto which all other are but as accessaries . They after the abolition of Popery , were established at the first , whether by a new plantation ( new wee mean in respect of the present estate of Rome ) or by reformation onely , as you will haue it : and are still continued , and increased by the free , voluntary , and personall profession of faith , and confession of sinnes of such men , and women , as are by the word of God , and the publishing of it , perswaded , and in some measure fore-fitted to joyn vnto them , and walk with them : and all this without any compulsion with the fear of Iosiahs sword , or Hezechiahs proclamation , by pag. 246. 247. which you confesse your Church to have been , in the persons of King Edward & Queen Elizabeth , brought back from Antichrist to the reformation wherin now you stand : for which you peremptorily professe , there is not required any profession of the name of Christ . Let it then be considered of , and judged by all indifferent men , how it can possibly be that both the reformed Churches abroad , and the vnreformed Church of England , can be truely gathered , after the apostasie of Antichrist : the former being separated from Popety into covenant with the Lord , in the particular members , by voluntary profession of faith without compulsion ; and the latter by compulsion , without profession of faith . Howsoever government , & freedom , or voluntarynes , be not contrary according to your most ignorant affirmation ; yet compulsion , and voluntarines are ; and contraries cannot stand together and be made true , no not by God himself . My hope was that ( the argument of compulsion once ended , ) I might , with good leave , have returned to the former book : but see , after so many provings , and professings of Rome a true Church , & still in covenant with God , & that the Churches now separating from her , were not to be gathered of such voluntaries , as in the first plantation , nor needed the preaching of the word to go before for their conversion , but that the Magistrate might compel them by fear , and that so the reformation of the Church of England was wrought , Mr B. now tels vs a cleane contrary tale , and that their reformation was voluntary , and not constreyned , and how that pag. 145. came about .

First , ( to let passe the succession of the Church he pleads from King Etheldred , King of Kent , of which I haue spoken so lately , as the reader may bear mine answer in mind ) that the Queens Maiesty with many others , began a voluntary reformation , and that the supream power Mr. B. ( as he calls it ) being gathered , made proclamation of her godly intent , which was a kind of teaching to which the people yeelded voluntarily , for any thing that any man can say to the contrary : and pag. 245. adioyned themselves vnto them , and that the act of the cheif doing it voluntarily , is to be accounted the act of all , though the inferiours come not to consent , for proof of which he quoteth three scriptures , Ex. 19. 3. 7. 8. Iosh. 4. 2. 8. 2 Chr. 14. 2.

A solide proof ; bycause the Queen did voluntarily imbrace the Answ. truth in a measure , therfore the whole body of the land , whom she vrged by proclamation , and other inforcements , did voluntarily professe , and imbrace the same . For touching the supream power gathered , that is , the Counsell , & Nobles , when she came to the crown they were such , as had imediately before both enacted , and exequuted most bloody statutes against such as voluntarily professed the truth , and where you , and the Ministers with you , pag. 187. affirm that the body of the land did in Queen Elizabeths tyme adioyn themselves vnto that company which had stood out in Queen Maries dayes , it is clean otherwise , for they that so stood out adioyned themselves to the rest in the severall Parishes , where their houses stood , and occasions lay , vnder the formerly masse-preists , & then for the most part , ignorant and prophane preists , with their English reformed masse-book . In adding further , that the Queens proclamation was a kind of teaching , you trifle notably : the quaestion is of such a teaching , as was effectuall to make a whole nation of Antichristians the week before , true Christians , and a true Church . It was in deed the onely effectuall means the people had generally : and if the Queen had proclaymed the contrary the next week , it would haue been as effectual to haue turned them to their former vomit again . Your presumption , that no man can say to the contrary , but that the people yeelded voluntarily to the truth , vpon the Queens proclamation is vayn , considering what the † † 2 Cor. 9. 13. voluntary yeeling , or submission vnto the Gospel of Christ is , which the scriptures commend vnto vs , in the establishing of Churches . The gospel is a supernaturall thing , and cannot possibly be yeelded vnto voluntarily by a naturall man , or perswaded , but by a supernaturall motive , which is onely it self : & that by the operation of the spirit also in some measure , it cannot be vnderstood , and beleeved but by it self published , and proclaymed ( as the sun is seen by it own light ) much lesse can it be willed , and willingly yeelded vnto : for the will must follow the vnderstanding , neyther can any man will that he knowes not . Besides , the many treasons ▪ and great rebellions raysed to reestablish Popery in the land , the great good liking of the old law ( as they term it ) which still is found in the multitude , and the apparant hatred and persequution against the true profession of the gospel in any measure , ( though there be ten now for one in the beginning of the Queens reign that haue atteyned to some measure of knowledge and conscience of godlynes ) do confirm that which I say , viz: that the yeelding vnto the gospell in the multitude , could not be voluntary . The three scriptures you bring to shew , that the agreement of the cheif is accounted in the case of faith , and religion the act of all , though the inferiours give not their consent , is by you egregiously perverted ; for they do all & every one of them plainly prove the peoples consent . The first is Exod. 19. 3. 7. 8. where v : 3. the Lord signifies his wil vnto Moses , and v : 7. Moses propounds the same things vnto the Elders , and v : 8. all the people ( viz having the same things by the Elders propounded to them , as Iunius vpon that place , ( and so will any man of common sense ) noteth , promise obedience to all the Lords commandements . The second place is Iosh. 4. 2. 8. where it is evident to him that reads the scripture quoted with it , that which is written , ch. 3. 9. and Deut. 27. 1. 2 3. &c. that the twelve men that took the twelve stones out of the mi●des of lorden for a memoriall of the peoples safe passing over , did it with the distinct knowledge , and actuall consent of the multitude , and of all the people , as is sayd , v : 1. who are also expresly commanded by Ioshua , v : 2. of the same chapt: and v : 12. of the chapt: before going to chuse , or take these twelve men for the purpose before named . Lastly for 2. Chron. 14 as ●t is true , that Asa the King did provoke the rest to seek the Lord , both by his example and authority , so is it as true , that the people sought the Lord their God with him , and as vntrue that any did by v. 7. his power , obey , in fear , as you affirm . The Lord himself testifies expresly against you , and that all Iudah , & Beniamin assembled in Ierusalem , ●h. 15. 9. 10 12. 15. and made a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their hart , and with all their sowl ; of whom also it is witnessed accordingly , that , they swore vnto the Lord with all their heart , and sought him with a whol desire . And for the point it self , howsoever in bodily things , the people may refer themselves to the determinations of their superiours , and may bind themselves to rest in them , as in their own acts , though they neyther take knowledge of , nor give consent vnto the things in particular , yea though they be to their bodyly domage : yet in the matters of faith , and religion , it is clean otherwise , and to hold the same proportion is a very popish errour , which makes the governours Lords over the peoples faith .

And thus at the last am I got back whence I digressed , & will now proceed in the examination of such reasons , as Mr B : brings to prove that profane persons , or to vse his own words , men of lewd conversation , are not false matter of the Church . To which purpose , he first distinguisheth true matter into good , and bad ; and so taking that which is bad , & naught vnto himself , for the matter of his Church , he will yet have it true , and no false matter . And this distinction of his , he labours to exemplifie by similitude , and to confirm by example . The similitude he borrowes from a materiall house , and the matter of it , timber , & stone , which makes eyther nothing to the matter in hand , or if any thing , against himself . If there can possibly be any false matter of an house , then rotten timber is false matter : and so wicked and vnrepentant sinners dead , and rotting in the grave of sinne , are false matter in proportion : but if there can be no false matter of a materiall house , then he may see how maymed his comparison is , when the termes of the one side are impossible . Howsoever it is evident , that the house of God , the Church is a † † 1 Pet. 2. 5 spirituall house made of lively stones , * * 1 Cor. 15. 45. Ephe. 2. 20. built vpon that lifegiving foundation Christ Iesus . And as a man , ( or other living creature ) being once become dead naturally , cannot be called a true man naturally , so neyther can a man spiritually dead in trespasses , and sinnes , be called a true man spiritually , and therefore not true matter of that spirituall house the Church .

The things you further adde , namely , that all Churches have in Mr B. them good , and bad matter , that men deserving iustly to be cast out , are not false matter , nor so cast out of the Church , but as bad matter , but true : that excommunicates are still brethren by their profession ; are all of them so many devises of your own without proof , or truth .

For first it is not true , that all Churches ( which you take for Answ. such ) have in them good matter : for there may be by your owne graunt , true Churches by their profession , consisting onely of wicked persons , which you acknowledge bad matter , though true ; and there are full many parish Churches in Engl: wherein , he that should be put to find any good matter , yea one holy and sanctifyed man , had need with the Cynick Phylosopher , seek it , o● him , with a candle at noon day , neyther is it true on the other side , that all Churches haue in them bad matter : there are Churches in the world , wherein ( by the mercy of God , and power of his ordinances ) there is no visible bad matter , that is , no person of known lewd conversation : els God forbid . You wrong the Churches of Christ , and deceive the Christian reader , where in the shutting vp of this point , you perswade him , that he shall find , ever cause thus to Pag. 116. be affected , and to greive , ( viz at lewd persons in the Church ) wheresoever he comes . He may , and ought to come , where there is no such cause of greif , nor ( by the grace of our God assisting vs ) shal be , without reformation ; though you measure others by your own lyne .

Now for the second poynt , nothing can be more vntruely affirmed , then that the Church may cast out any part , or parcel of her true matter . For first , all the true matter of the Church hath vpon it the form of the Church , and so is of the essence , and being of the Church , which for the Church to cast out , were to destroy her own essence , & being . Secondly , the true matter of the Church , and true members of Christ , are the same . As † † 1 Cor. 3. 11. Christ is called the foundation of the house , they of the Church , are the matter of the building : as he is called * * Ephe. 1. ●2 . 23. the head of his body , they are his members : whom to excommunicate , is to deliver vnto Sathan , 1 Cor. 5. 5. whervpon I do necessarily inferre , that if to excommunicate be to deliver to Sathan , and that the Church may lawfully excommunicate wicked persons , and that wicked persons be true matter , and that true matter be true members of Christs body , then may the Church lawfully deliver to Satan the true members of Christs body , which I abhor to write . And though your Ordinaries Mr B. be oft tymes so liberall of the true members of Christ , as thus to deliver them to the Divel , yet had the Ministers of Christ rather have their own members torn from their bodies , then thus to dismemthe blessed body of the Lord Iesus . The heynousnes of this fact shewes the vanity of your distinction , the errour of your opinion , and the falsity of your Church .

Lastly you do mistake the two scriptures , which you bring to prove , that a man iustly excommunicate is still called a brother in the scriptures , and so to be held by the Church .

The Apostle in the former place , 2 Th. 3. 15. speaks not of a man excommunicated , no● worthy to be excommunicated neyther : but of such a person , as followes not his calling faithfully as he ought , but , being negligent in his own , is to busy in other mens matters : whom he wills the brethren to mark , and no way to countenaunce in suc● walking , but on the contrary to shew their dislike of it , that he may see it , and be ashamed of it : and this he that reads over the chapter , shall observe ( I suppose ) to be the Apostles meaning . In the second place , which is , 1 Cor. 5. 11. his meaning is , not , that Christians becomming fornicators , covetous , Idolaters , and so continuing obstinate , should still be reputed brethren notwithstanding , but he speaks of a brother there , as Ezechiel speaks of a righteous man , chapt. 18. 24. that turns away from his righteousnes and commits in●quity , and doth according to all the abomination of the wicked , &c. and as truely may it be affirmed , that the person Ezechiel speaks of , is still to be reputed a righteous man , as that he , of whom Paul speaks , is still to be accounted a brother . Both the Prophet , and Apostle speaks of such persons , ●s were righteous , and brethren reputatively , before they did so bastardly degenerate . And is it possible , that Christ should charge his Ch: to account an obstinate offender , as an heathen and publican , Mat. 18. and that Paul should come after , and direct them to account him a brother ? Besides † † Math. 23 8. all the members of the Church are brethren : and to become a member is to become a brother , and so to be excommunicated out of the Church is nothing els but to be cast out of the Churches brotherhood . Lastly , the Apostle , 1 Cor. 5. 11. names idolatours amongst the rest ; and will you haue idolaters your brethren , Mr B ? why then did you in the former pag. exclude Papists , and pag. 108. Idolatours vniversally ? A holy brotherhood it seems you will have , brother idolater , haeretique , and what not ?

The instance you bring of Symon Magus an hypocrite received by the Apostle , ( by the Evangelist you should say ) Act. 8. makes strongly against you , if it be well considered , what is written of him . For after he was discovered by Peter not to have his heart right in the sight of God , he was pronounced by him to have neyther part , nor fellowship in that busines . ver: 21. Now if Philip had discerned thus much by him at the first , do you think he would have acknowledged him for a partener in it ? or haue given the seal of the forgivenes of sinns , of new birth , and of salvation ( as you truely prove baptism to be pag. 119. ) to such a blank ? nay would be haue prophaned the Lords holy things vpon such a dog or swyne , contrary to the expresse commaundement of Christ , Math. 7. 6. Cease Mr B. to excuse your self by accusing the holy Apostles , and Evangelists of Christ .

And herevpon I do thus argue .

They that haue no right to the holy things of God in the Ch: are not to be admitted into it , neyther is the Church gathered of such persons , rightly , and truely gathered .

But men of lewd conversation have no right to the holy things of God in the Church ; and therefore the Church gathered of such persons , is not truely gathered .

The former proposition is clear , bycause men admitted into the Church , are admitted to the participation , and communion of the holy things of God in the Church . The 2. also appeareth , both by the scripture before named , where Peter pronounceth , that , such as have not their hart right with God , ( which no lewd persons hav or ever had ) haue no part in the holy things of God , as also by Mr Bernards own graunt , namely , that wicked persons are to be cast out of the Church . And what could there be in the world more ridiculous , yea or wherein God were more plainly mocked , then to gather a Church of such persons , as are judged fit to be cast out of the Church ? And yet for this Church-gathering ( being indeed his own ) Mr B : pleads both here , and every where , both in this , and his other book .

In the next place come in certayn popular similitudes , to colour over that rotten errour , which can by no reason , or scripture , be made sound : in number three , which I will consider in order . I.

Two persons are lawfully marryed by publique profession and mutuall cor●●nt : Mr. B. now though the wise perform not her covenant , but prove vnfaithful , yet is she still a true wis● , till the bill of divorcement be given out .

I graunt it : but see you not , how you take the thing for granted , Answ. which wee deny , namely , that your nationall Church is the true wife of Christ ? Since he divorced his ancient wife the nation of the Iewes , he never maried , nor will marry , nation more : much lesse , ( which is more specially to be considered ) did he ever marry for his lawfull wife the prophane multitudes of vnhallowed Atheists wherwith , as you confesse in the beginning of your book your Church aboundeth . Hath Christ commaunded his † † 2 Cor. 6. 14. people not to be vnequally yoked with vnbeleevers ? and will he yoke himself with them , & with Atheists , & other wicked persons ? which are in deed † † 1 Tim. ● . 8. Tit. 1. 15. Iam. 2. 17. 20. infidels , & unbeleevers , whatsoever they professe in word , though you in your 2 book Mr B. do with defiance avouch the contrary .

The same Apostle in an other place affirmeth that , * * 2 Cor. 6. 15. 16. he which coupleth himself with an harlot , is one body with her : & forbids the faithfull , as a most impious thing , to make the members of Christ , the members of an ▪ harlot : and will Christ make himself the head of harlots , theves , murtherers , blasphemers , and the like ? or become one body with them , he the head , and they the members , as it is betwixt him , and his Church , 1 Cor. 10. 17. & 12. 12. 27. Lastly , no Woman having a former housband alive , may take a second , or be lawfully maryed vnto him : but wicked & prophane persons have a former husband yet living , even the law , or sin taking occasion by the law , to work in them all manner of lust , & ruling over them as the husband over the wife , to which also they are bound , as the wife vnto the housband : Rom. 7. 1. 2. 3. 5. 8. & therefore cannot be maryed vnto Christ , nor become his wife . The 2. similitude followeth . II.

A man professing obedience to a king as his alone sovereign , and obeying Mr B. his lawes in the general , though he transgresse in some things openly , & greatly , is that Kings true subiect notwithstanding .

You deal vnfaithfully , & put the case wrong . The question is of a Answ. man professing himself in word the Kings loyall subiect , & his alone , but in deed , & truth , the sworn slave of his professed enemy , & an apparant rebell against the Kings majesty . And whether such a one be a true subiect vnto the King or no : for such , and no better , are wicked , & profane men , whatsoever in word they professe , even slaves , and vassals of the Divel , and rank rebels against the L. Iesus . Right now you would have Rome a true Church , & now you will have Iesuites the Kings true subjects : for such they professe themselves , as boldly , as falsly . And yet no Romish Preist , or Iesuit is more treacherous to the Kings person , & state , then is a prophane vngoldly man professing Christianity , to the crown , & dignity of Christ Iesus .

The 3. resemblance is of a man professing one onely trade , though bunglingly , III. or carelesly , whom none will call a false trades-man , but eyther no good Mr B. trades-man , or vnprofitable , yet truely that trades-man by his profession .

Here , as before , you mis-put the case ; you should instance in a Answ. man professing a trade or faculty , but practising the contrary in his generall course . For example , a man professeth himself ▪ in word a surgeon , or physition , but is observed , and found in deed and practise , to poyson men , and cut their throtes , and this to be his resolved course . Now so charitable is Mr B. as he will have this man still called , and that truely , a Physition , or surgeon , though not good , nor profitable . But the truth is , he is a false , and treacherous homicyde , and murtherer , and so to be abhorred of all , but of none eyther to be called , or accounted a true physition , or surgeon , eyther good , or evil . Such a one , and no better is he to his own soul , that vnder the profession of Christianity in word , practiseth wickednes , and impiety , and hath his conversation in them .

The authour , having thus ended his defence for the bad and naughty matter of his Church , so granted by him , in effect , comes to speak of false matter : but so breifly , and darkly withall , as it appears plainly , he is loth to meddle with it , least in the handling , his bad matter should prove false matter , as it comes to passe with counterfeyt coyn . That he sayth then is , that false matter is contrary to this true matter , that is to the true matter , of which he hath spoken . Wherevpon it followeth , that since the true matter , he hath spoken of , is wicked , and vngodly men , though professing Christ ▪ and that holy , and godly men are contrary to men wicked , & vngodly , that therefore godly and holy men are contrary to the true matter of his Church , and so by his reckoning , false matter . To conclude this point . What is false , but that which hath an appearance of truth , but not the truth it self , whereof it makes shew ? in which respect the scriptures also speak of false Christs , false Prophets , false Apostles , false brethren , false witnesses , false ballances , and the like : pretending themselves to be that which they are not , and to have that truth in them , which they have not : of all which , there is none more truely false , nor more fitly so called , then that man is , and is called truely a false christian , or false matter of the Church , which 〈◊〉 in word he looks to be saved by Iesus Christ , and yet continues in a lewd , and wicked conversation † † 2 Tim. 3. ● . having a shew of godlines , but denying the power thereof : and * * Tit. 1. 16. professing the knowledg of God , but by works denying him . Wherevpon I do also conclude , that the body of the Church of England being gathered generally ▪ and for the most part of such members visibly , cannot be the true visible body of Christ , except a true living body can be compact of false , and dead members .

That which comes next into consideration , in M● B : order , is the visible form of the Church ; as he calls it , which he makes ( & truely ) the vniting of vs vnto God , & one to another visibly , & in his † † pag. 277. 2. book , the covenant , by which Godsets vp a people to be his people , and they him mutually to be their God . This description he illustrateth by a similitude borrowed from a materiall building , whose form ariseth from the coupling together of the stones vpon the foundation : which he also further manifesteth , by comparing it with the form of the invisible Church , by which the faithfull are vnited to God , through Christ invisibly , and one vnto another . Of the termes of which comparison , and their proportion , wee shall speak by , and by . I do onely in the mean while intreat the reader to observ with me these two things . The former , that , Mr B : having in the beginning of his book censured vs very severely , and that with D. Allisons concurring testimony , for misapplying 1 Pet. 2. 5. to the visible Church , which sayd they , was meant of the invisible Church , here notwithstanding he interprets it of the visible Church , even as we do . The latter , that speaking of the invisible Church , and the form of it , he brings in sundry scriptures , as so to be expounded , which are apparantly intended of the visible Church : & amongst the rest these three . Ephe. 2. 22. and 4. 4. 1 Cor. 12. 13. the last of which he himself also within a few pages following expounds as meant of pag. 125. the visible Church , and the properties thereof . Now for the comparison betwixt the form of the invisible , and visible Church ▪ wherein if Mr B. observed due proportion , and made the form of the visible Church the same visibly , externally , & in respect of men , which he doth the form of the invisible Church invisibly , internally , and in respect of God , and so layd down things in simple , and playn terms , the truth in the point would easily appeare , & much needles labour be spared on both sides . The form of the invisible Church he noteth , first , and on Gods part to be raysed , by the spirit , by which invisible hand , God taketh men immediately by the hart , and ●●● B. sayth he wil be th●●● God : 2. and on mans part , by ●aith , by which invisible hand the beleevers do take hold of the promise of the spirit , beleeving that they are his people , and he their God : and that thru God and man are invisibly vnited ▪ and 3. by love , by which men take hold one of another and so are vnited together invisibly . And all this he confirms sufficiently by the scriptures . Answerable vnto which 3. invisible hands for this invisible vnion , he makes 3. visible handes for the visible vnion : 1. vnto the spirit , the word : 2. vnto faith , the profission of faith : 3. vnto love , the sacrament of the Lords supper : for ●o he proportioneth them . The colour of truth , which these things may seem to haue in their mutuall reference , will ●ub off in the very touching of the particulars . But if Mr B. would ha●e observed just proportion , and haue set things down playnly , he should haue said thus , or to this effect . As the invisible , internall , and effectuall vnion of God with man , of man with God , and of one man with another is raysed from the invisible , internall , and effectuall work of the spirit , invisible , internall , and effectuall faith , and love , which are onely seen , and known of God , and of the parties themselves , in whom they are ; so must the visible , externall , and apparant vnion of God with man , of man with God , and of one man with an other , arise from the visible , externall , and apparent work of the spirit ; visible , externall , and apparant faith , and love , which are seen of men , and made sensible to the ey of charity , which judgeth probably of thinges which are not seen , by the things which are seen . For albeit , it be true , which Mr B. hath in his 2. book , that wee pag. 136. are not therefore a Church of God , bycause men so judge vs , but bycause God hath received vs into covenant with himself ; yet it must also be considered , that the Church is not called visible in respect of God , but of men , to whom it doth , or may appear , & by whom it is so discerned , and judged probably .

The scriptures do speak of a † † Ro● . 3. a●●● . iustification before God , which is by ●aith alone ; and of “ “ Iam. 2. a iustification before men , which is by work● : the former of which we may truely call invisible justification , as known to none but God , and the conscience of the party justifyed : the other visible justification , as being manifest , and made visible vnto men , by works , as ver: 18. of the Chapter before named , where the Apostle speaketh of shewing , manifesting , or making visible faith ▪ and so consequently justification ; by works . And look what is here sayd of visible , and invisible faith , and justification , the same from other scriptures compared together may be affirmed of visible , and invisible election , redemption , sanctification ; as also of visible , and invisible saynts for the matter ; and of the visible and invisible vnion for the form of the visible , and invisible Church : the invisible being certayn , infallible , and so known to be , of God : the visible , morall , probable , and so appearing vnto men . There is in deed , and in the right disposition of things by the revealed will of God , but * * Cant. 6. 8. Ephe. 4. 4. & 1. 22. 23 Act. 20. 28. one Church of Christ , which is his body , whereof he is the head , and which he hath purchased with his blood : for Christ hath not purchased two Churches with his blood , but one , neyther is the head of two bodyes , but of one : and according to this purchase of Christ , and ordinance of God , all that are of the visible Church are also of the invisible , and all of the invisible of the visible Church , which are indeed not two , but one Church , in two sundry respects , as I have formerly shewed . I deny not , but that , as it hath been sayd of old , there are many sheep without , and many wolves within : many of the visible Church , which are not of the invisible Church , and so answerably , many of the invisible Church , which never come into the visible Church . But this say I , is not according to the revealed will of God , in his word ; but by mans default , and sin . It is their sin of ignorance or infirmity , which ( being of the invisible Church ) do not , ( if possibly they can ) joyn themselues vnto the visible Church , there to partake in the visible ordinances : it is their sinne of hypocrisie , and presumption , which not being of the invisible Church ; do adjoyn themselves to the visible Church , there to prophane the Lords covenant , & ordinances , to which they have no right . For how can they being wicked , and vnholy , chalendge the LORD to be their GOD , that is , all happines , & goodnes , vnto them , which is one part of the covenant . or professe themselves to be his people , which is another part ? when the Divel is their God , and their lusts ; and they his , & their people , and servants , to whom they obey ? or what have they to do to meddle with Gods covenant , whom he expresly forbids to take it in their mouthes ? It is therefore a vile & profane defence , which you are driven to , Mr B : by pleading , that wicked persons are true matter of the Church , and so admitted into covenant with God , in the 2. book ; that obedience onely followes the covenant pag. 279. as the fruit of it : and that God requires not actuall obedience , or that wee should be actually good , or holy , before , or when we covenant with him : but that he should make vs good ; and that wee should be good , and perform actuall obedience afterward ; which as it is notable Anabaptistry , and in deed the ground of that haeresy being applyed to the covenant of the Iewish Church : so being applyed to the covenant of the Church now , it is worse then Anabaptistry . And consider this man , he makes the sacrament of the Lords supper a ground , and part of the covenant , and yet affirms , that God for mens entering into this covenant , requires not that they should be holy , and good : and so by this deep divinity , it must needs follow , that the Lord requires not that men should be good , or holy for their partaking in the sacrament of the Lords supper .

The particulars now follow , in which you place this visible vnion , and covenant of the Lord with his people , of them with him , and of one of them with another . The first whereof is his word , which ( say you ) is the onely first visible note , and testimony from God , by Mr B. which he makes a people his people . Ps. 147. 19. Rom. 3. 1. 2. Ioh. 17 ▪ 6. and so you go on to prove , that this word is Gods outstretched hand to subdue people vnto him : the sword of the spirit by which he smiteth : the immortall seed , by which he begetteth , and maketh alive : the word of reconcilation , by which he reconcileth his Church , and people . And therevpon you conclude , that to whomsoever God sends his word , to them he testifieth his love , and desire to make them his Church , and people .

To let passe the repugnancy in your words , as first , where you Answ. speak of the onely first note , as though there could possibly be more firsts then one : and 2. where you make the word a note , and testimony , by which God makes a people his people : whereas notes and testimonyes do not make that to be , which is not , but do shew and declare it to be already . I do answer , that as it is true , that where God sends his word , there ●e testifieth his love ; and is desirous , that is , in respect of the outward offer of the meanes to make such a people his Church ; so is it most vntrue , that to whomsoever God sends his word , and testifyes his desire outwardly to make them his people , and Church , that those he makes his Church , and people , or vnites himself visibly unto them . The vniting of God vnto men is an effect of the word , which it alwayes hath not vpon them to whom it is sent . Externall efficients do never prove & argue their effects necessarily , except they work naturally , and infallibly also , which the wor● doth not , but morally , and according to the good pleasure , and blessing of the Lord vpon it . It is as you truely say , Mr B. the outstretched hand of the Lord in it self , but it doth not vnite the Lord to any , except he take hold of them with it : it is in it self hat ▪ immortall seed , but may fall vpon † † Math. 13. 19. the very high way , and so have no good effect at all , eyther in truth or appearance : the messengers of it are the Lords mouth vnto them to whom it is sent , but all receive not this message to whom it comes ; * * Mat. 22. 4. 5. 6. some make light of it , & neglect it , others do evilly entreat them that bring it , hating , reviling , and persequuting both them and it . Act. 13. 45. and 17. 18. Now will you say that God strikes hands with these men , & on his part enters covenant with them actually , bycause his word is published amongst them ? The inward , and invisible hand of the spirit must not onely be stretched out by the Lord , but must seaze , and take hold of the heart , and be effectuall invisibly , and internally , before this invisible vnion be made on the Lords part : so must the Lords outward , and visible hand , his word , not onely be stretched out , but also seaze , and take hold of the outward man , at the least , and be effectuall visibly , and externally vpon him , before the Lord can be sayd on his part to haue contracted any visible vnion .

In the next place comes the visible hand of man , by which he on Mr R. his part c●tracts with God , & enters covenant with him visibly : & that Mr B. makes the open profession of faith vnto the doctrine taught , which such as make , he sayth , have visibly taken hold of the word , & struc●en hands with God .

You make much of nothing Mr B. or of that which is worse than Answ. nothing . Even now the profession of faith made the true matter of the Church ; and here it must make the true form of the Church : and yet the truth is , that in the forming of your nationall English Church by a new covenant from that wherein it stood in Popery , which was by your own graunt , with Saints and Angels in stead of God , & , I adde , with Antichrist , in the stead of Christ , no such profession of faith was made , as your self here do both require , and prove necessary for the forming of the visible Church , or her vniting with God . And that I manifest in two particulars . The former is ▪ that the profession of faith required for a peoples vniting with the Lord their God , must be made both freely , and particularly by the persons themselves so vniting . And this appeares both by that which you haue sayd of Gods giving , or sending his word , which is his visible outstretched hand , by which he offereth reconcilation vnto men personally , and so by consequent requires that they stretch out the hand of personall profession to him : and also by the scriptures alledged by you ; all which do give witnes of such a confession of faith , and sinnes , as was freely made by the persons themselves particularly , which were ioyned to the Church . Let the reader take knowledg of these scriptures amongst the rest . Mat. ● . 6. Act. 2. 38. 1 Cor. 1● . 1. 2. the profession of faith noted in the scriptures by you produced , was not made by men of lewd conversation , or apparantly vnsanctified ( of whom alone , and their vnion with God our question is ) but by men visibly , and externally holy ; and such , as all of them were , visibly , and so far as men in charity could judge , iustified , sanctified , and intitled to the promises of salvation , and life eternall . The scriptures are ( besides the th 〈…〉 last named , Math. 3. 6. Act. 2. 38. with which compare vers. 3● ▪ 41 47. 1 Cor. 15. 1. ) Mat. 10. 40. 41. & 32. Act. 8. 12. 13. 37. 38. 1 Cor. 6. 1● . Col. 2. 11. 12. Tit. 3. 5. Who but you Mr Bernard would thus wrong eyther these scriptures as iustifying the admission of lewd persons , des●rving to be excommunicated , into the Ch: or the Apostles of Christ for admitting , or baptizing such ? And yet these persons are the true bad matter , for which you pleaded so much formerly : and which here by these scriptures , you would bring into a true bad vnion with God . For of these for the most part , hath the nation alwayes consisted , and of these your Ch: was gathered at the first , when it became national , & so hath stood formed ever since .

The 3. & last thing for the perfecting of this visible covenant , & vn●ing of the members one to another , M. B. makes , the holy sacrament Mr B. of the L. supper , which a● it is a seal of our faith , so i● i● a testimony of that visible com●●●ion of love , also of one member with another . 1 Cor. 10. 16. 17.

You confound all things in saying the sacrament makes the covenaunt ; Answ. which is a seal of it , and praesupposeth both the covenant , and the Church , whereof it is an ordinance . The covenant must be before the Church , and the Church before the sacrament : how then can the sacrament make the Church ? And where you further call it an holy sacrament , a seal of ●aith , a testimony of the visible communion of love , & of one member with another , you speak the truth , but not truly : such it is in it self , & in the right administration , & use of it : but not in the prophane abuse of it vpon wicked men , of whom wee speak : and for whom , & their vniting with Christ you here plead . Vpon whom whilest you , & the rest of the ministers of your Church , do prophane it , as you do , the more holy it is in it self , the more vnholy is your fact , & the more heynous your sin . It is as you say , the seal of faith , and of the for●ivenes of sinns through faith to the penitent , & beleevers , but is it therefore so , & such to apparantly impenitent , & vnbeleeving persons ? it is in it self a testimony of the communion of love : but is it so vnto , & among the wicked ? or is it not in that abuse made a lying witnes to testifie , & witnes love , where apparant hatred , and malice reigns against God , & good men ? It is an outward pledge , or symbole of the communion which the faithful haue with Christ , ( for of that the Apostle speaketh 1 Cor. 10. 16. 17. directly ) and so by consequence , one with another : & bycause it vnites Christ the head with his own members , & one of them with another , doth it therefore vnite Christ or his true members , with the true apparant visible lims of the Divil , which all vngodly men and women are ? This is the force of Mr Br. arguments . Bycause the L. supper is of this or that vse unto them , to whom by the word of God it apperteyns , therefore it hath or must be judged to haue the same vse amongst them which are apparant vsurpers of it , and to whom by the word of God it apperteyns not . There is nothing more common in both his books , then this kind of deceiptfull arguing .

Here is yet an Arg: of comparison to be taken knowledg , & considred of ; & the rather because the author both wills the reader to note it , in the margent , and repeats it himself over & over , in the text .

The Argument is , that , a● continual sinnes & corruptions of the hart● of Mr B. the elect , do not make them false Christians before God , or no true invisible members of Christ : so neyther do outward offences , or corruptions , m●k open professors of the saith , false Christians before men , or no true visible members of Christ . True , no more ; due proportion observed : namely , tha● Answ. those outward offences do not reign in the mortall bodyes of men , ●● the inward corruptions do not reign in the hearts of the elect .

But let the reader here remember the subiect of the quaestion , which is , men of lewd conversation , and deserving to be excommunicated , and then the noting of Mr B. Arg: wil be like David● noting the Amal●kites tydings of the death of S●ul , and Ionathan , to the destruction 2 Sam. 1. of him that brought them . For by the same rule of proportion I argue thus . As they in whose hearts , sinns , and corruptions reign inwardly , are no true Christians before God , nor actuall members of Christ invisibly : so they in whose lives , and conversations , sinnes and corruptions reign outwardly , are no true Christians before men nor members of Christ visibly . And here comes to my mind an other argument much what like this , in Mr B. 2. book : where he will have a mixt company of godly , and wicked persons to be called holy , or a company of saynts , as well as a person , holy , in whom there is a mixture of the spirit , and flesh . But the difference is playn . In this mixt body of godly , & wicked , sin reigns in some of the members but in no part of body , or faculty of soul of a person , in whom the spirit is , ( though never so much flesh be mingled with it ) doth sinne reign . He might as well say , the whole Church so mixt shal be saved : for the whol man shal be saved , by faith in Christ , notwithstanding all mixture in him .

Now the conclusion Mr B. makes , that , their congregations professe Christ , as is before sayd ; that God hath given them his holy word , and sacraments : & moved the harts of all of them outwardly to receive both the one , and the other , is vnproved , and vntrue .

For first , there is no one congregation in the Land whose particular members made that holy profession in any measure , by & according to which the Apostles did constitute and vnite visible congregations . Secondly , I deny that the Lord hath given his sacraments to any congregation in the Land : there are very many in the best ordered parishes , which take them without the Lords gift : as being wicked vsurpers of them , vnto which by the revealed will of God they have no right . But here I must needs discover Mr Bernards haunt , and the turning , by which in his second book he vsually declines both Mr Ainsworths & Mr Smyths Arguments of this nature : and that is , by telling them , that all are not wicked amongst them , that some , or many haue the true knowledge of Gods word : and that the fear of God possesseth the hearts of many : as in pag. 249. 250. &c. this place , that God hath moved the hearts of many of the people effectually , and the like : and that therefore we do them wrong in condemning all for some : and in denying the good their right , for others default . To this I answer first that those that can be truely judged to fear God , are thin strewed in the best places : and not many in comparison of the rest , as is pretended , but a very small handfull : and besides , it is but casuall , and accidentall to the congregation , and nothing to the constitution of it , that there is one man truely fearing God in it . The parish must be a true vivisible constituted Church , as well one as another , and so receive the sacraments together , whether the Lord have had any such work ( as is here spoken of ) in the hearts of any , or no. And 2. it must be considered , & I pray the teader well to observe it , that the quaestion here betwixt Mr B. and me ( and so ordinarily betwixt him , and them ) is about the congregation ( which consists of all the members ioyntly ) and not about some particulars considered severally from the rest , of whom the congregation consists not . I am verily perswaded there are in many congregations many that truely feare God : ( and the Lord encrease their number , and graces ) and if they were separated from the rest into visible communion , I should not doubt to account them such congregations , as vnto which God had given his sacraments : but take them as they are even one with the rest , in one ioynt communion , as members of one body , making all together one Church , & congregation , so joyned at the first , and so still remayning , I deny that this Church , or congregation is the Lords people in covenaunt with him : or that he hath given vnto it his sacraments : yea or that those , which truely fear God , & are accepted of him in their persons , have in that communion , the right , and lawfull vse of them in many particulars . They cannot take them for pawnes and pledges of Gods love , and the forgivenes of sinns , to that congregation , wherewith they ioyn in the vse of them : nor as testimonies of true spirituall love amongst the persons communicating in them : nor as notes & badges of d●stinction , of that assembly , from all profane & vnhallowed assemblies in the world . And yet are all these common ends , and vses of the sacrament , as it is a communion , or common vnion of the members with the head , and one with another mutually . Since therefore your congregations , or parish assemblies are ( & alwayes have been ) so constituted , as that neyther the greatest part of them ( being prophane ) have any interest in the sacraments , or can have any right vse of them in their persons , nor yet the rest in their communion : it must needs follow , ( except the Lord have given his sacraments to them , which can haue no right vse of them , and to whom they apperteyn not ) that the Lord hath not given his holy sacraments to your congregations . And where you further adde , that God hath moved the harts of all the people of your congregations outwardly to receive both the word , and sacraments , it is one , amongst the rest of your bold , but bare affirmations . Are there not many thowsands amongst you that vnderstand not Heb. 6. 1. the doctrine of the beginning of Christ , the very first principles of christian religion ? And hath God perswaded the harts of these to receive the word & sacraments in any sence ? The Lord Iesus teacheth vs in the gospel that † † Ioh. 3. 20. every man that doth evill , hateth the light , neyther commeth to light , least his deeds should be reproved . And yet you will haue vs beleeve , that God hath perswaded the hearts of all the evill-doers amongst you , not onely to come to the light , but also to receive it . Let your own parish Mr B : stand for instance . There were in it ( to myne own knowledge ) when you wrote this book , that held most blasphemous errours touching the very Trinity ; and there are at this day , ( as I am certaynly informed ) who are so moved to receive the word , as that your Church-wardens are driven to spend a great part of the Lords day in hunting them from the ale-house to the temple . And if this be your case , what is the condition of the most congregations in the Land , to which the word of God hath not so much as been offered in any indifferent measure for the moving of their harts to receive it ? The truth is , the people are drawn in the most congregations , the most of them , and many in all , by compulsive lawes , to keep their Parish Church , to heare divine service , to communicate at Easter , and to receive the sacraments , and other rites : as is commaunded in the communion book : but how farre the most are from having their harts thus moved , as is pretended of all , to receive the word of God , appeareth too evidently in that great contempt , and hatred wherein they have such amongst themselves , as do in any sinceritie eyther preach or professe the same . To these things I may further adde , that , since the Lord hath given his word and sacraments to be dispensed to no people , but by the meanes which he hath prescribed in his word ▪ except the English Preisthood , and leitourgy were prescribed by the word of God , for these ministrations , even in this respect God cannot be ●ayd to have given his word , and sacraments to the congregations spoken of .

Now although this which hath been sayd in answer to your grounds , be sufficient to disprove the form of your Church , as you your self Mr B. rayse it , yet for your further conviction , I will adde certayn Arguments to manifest , and make playn , that wicked , and vngodly men , and women are vncapable , by the word of the Lord , of his covenaunt , and of all spirituall visible vnion with him ; & so consequently your congregations ( gathered of such persons at the first , and of such still consisting generally , with a handfull godly minded scattered amongst them ) to remayn vnformed , by the Lords holy covenant . The Arguments are ,

First , bycause godly , and wicked men are contraries , as being I. guided , and led by contrary causes , the one sort by * * Gal. 5. 1● . the spirit , and the other by the fl●sh , which are contrary one unto another . Now two contraries are not capable of one , and the same form .

Wicked men , and such as † † Psal. 50. 16. 17. hate to be reformed are forbidden , by II. the revealed will of God , from medling with his covenant , or ordinances : and therefore are not by the revealed wil of God received into covenant with him , or to the participation of his ordinances ▪ which are both one .

Since wicked men are by the word of God ( as you your self III. graunt ) to be excommunicated , that is to be cut off from the visible vnion with Christ and his Church , how can they be sayd by the same word of God , to be capable of this vnion with Christ and his Church ? nothing can be eyther more vnreasonably affirmed , or more vngodlily practised .

Lastly , the scriptures do expressely debarre men of lewd , and vngodly IIII. conversation , of all fellowship , vnion , and communion with God . If wee say , that we haue fellowship with him , and walk in darknes , we ly and do not truely , sayth the Apostle , Ioh. 1. Ep: 1. 6. and what fellowship sayth Paul , hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnes ? & what communion hath light with darknes ? and what concord hath Christ with Bel● ill ? or what part hath the beleever with the vnbeleever , or infidel ? &c. 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. The former of these scriptures is so directly against you , as if it were recorded by the holy Ghost with particular respect to your errour . You say that men though of a lewd conversation , that is , walking in darknes , have visible fellowship , vnion , and communion with God , if they professe they beleeve in Christ , or so say ; Iohn on the contrary teacheth that they which walk in darknes , have no fellowship with God , though they so say , but are lyars . The other scripture must be further opened , and inforced : considering how you charge vs in your 2. book with the wretched abuse of it ; and labour by a long discourse pag. 140. to wring it out of our hands : as being our speciall weapon ( as you say ) to fight for separation , and to defend the same . The four heads vnder which you reduce all the particulars about it , I will prosequ●te in order , as they are by you layd down . 1. the occasion . 2. the scope . 3. the matter intreated of . 4. the persons spoken of .

For the first , it is true you affirm of the Christian Corinthians Mr B. going to the idol feasts in the idol temples at the bidding of their freinds , and kinsfolks the heathen Corinthians : which I also acknowledg to haue Answ. been the mayn , and most immediate occasion of the Apostles writing , as he doth , but not the onely occasion . There was a former occasion of that , namely their marying with the vnbeleevers , & their † † ver. 14. vnequall yoking with them that way : by which the other mischeif was occasioned amongst them , as it had been with other the servants of God before them , from the beginning of the world . Gen. 6. 2. In which respect therefore the Lord in the law forbad † † Exod. 34. 16. the Israelites to take of the daughters of the heathen vnto their sonnes , least they provoked them to go awhoring after their Gods : which when they neglected , and mingled themselves with Idolaters in mariage , they presently fell into that monstrous mixture in religion , against which the Apostle dealeth , Numb. 25. 1 King . 11. 1. 2. 3. 4. Ezra 9. 1. 2.

But where for the clearing of your selves of the very occasion , you do adde , that you dwell not in civill society with idolaters , but vnder a Christian King , and with a people professing Christ , where no publick Idols are set vp , nor any feasting in honour of them , you follow your old fashion of bold boasting without measure , or modesty . Do you not live in civil society with the Idolaters ? Haue you no Papists in your kingdom ? I may say in your Parish ? or are Papists become no idolaters with you , as Rome was right now no false Church , nor Iesuites false subiects ? The face of your charity Mr B. is so full set towards Rome , and Papists , as no marvayl though you be so vnequall towards vs , as you are . The truth is , you are in the most streyt bond of civil society with Popish idolaters , that may be . Ther is nothing more common amongst them of your Church , then to ioyn in mariage with them : neyther is there ( to my knowledge ) amongst all your canons any one against this ▪ prophane commixture . Neyther is it any thing you speak of living vnder a Christian King , or with a people professing Christ : for idolaters may live vnder a Christian King , and professe Christ too in a measure , as both many others , and all antichristian idolaters do . Yea I have formerly manifested , that you live not onely in civill , but even in religious society with Papists , and you your self graunt as much of Atheists in the beginning of your book : and will you say that visible Atheists are true visible matter of the Church , and capable , by the word of God , of true visible fellowship , and communion with Christ , and the true members of his body ?

The scope of ●e scripture followeth , which , say you , i● that the beleeving Mr B. Corint●ians may have no fellowship with the infidels , and vnbeleevers , to their evill works ; but that they reprove , condemn , hate , and avoyd them .

Belike then they might haue had fellowship with them in any Answ. good work : and so if any of the heathen , or infidell Corinthians would haue communicated with the Christian Corinthians in the sacraments , or prayer , they might not haue refused their fellowship , or communion herein . For by your exposition the Apostle onely forbids partaking with them in evill works & the works of darknes . Of which more hereafter . And here in our names you frame an obiection , the sum whereof is , that if all the godly would separate from all the wicked , then there should be no wicked of the Church . Vnto which you answer sundry things : but how sufficiently will appear in the particulars . First you say , God commaunds not his to separate wholly from all the wicked : but from Infidels , Gentiles , Idolaters ; Iewes , Turks , Papists , whose very societies are to be left as no people of God .

Well then , I perceive , all religious fellowship with Papists is vnlawfull , and that their societies are no people of God . And how agrees this with your other affirmations , that Rome is a true Church : Papists true Christians , though under corruptions , as it was true Iob , though vnder soars : baptism there , a true sacrament , and seal of the covenaunt ; & yet here the societies of Papists are no people of God , that is in no covenant with him ? Or how doth this separation thus wholly to be made from Papists agree with that you write , pag. 91. of ioyning in prayer with such Papists , as though they be of the Church of Rome , yet sorrow for the abhominations , and as are come out from it in their soules , the best part , though not so in their bodyes ?

The distinction you put between Infidels , and idolaters , and men of prophane life , wee shall consider of in due place : & for your speach of all the Church falling into the estate of infidelity , and so ●●dged of the Church , eyther it is without sense , or I , which vnderstand it not . Now to that you adde of separating from the private familiarity of the wicked , living in the society of the godly , and that , if they will not be reformed , other courses are to be taken with them , as their sin of obstinacy deserves , I answer these things . First , that , as there is a case , wherein private withdrawing from a brother is warrantable , namely , when his offence is private , and he privately obstinate , & that his sinne eyther cannot be , or is not yet made publick , & publiquely ●vin●●d : so to separate from men privately , and that onely , for publick offences , is a course without ground either of scripture , or rea son . You say , pag. 144. that ( alvin so expounds 1 Cor. 5. 11. and therevpon do take an occasion to accuse our practise as Brownisticall , & vs of Luciferian schisme , & Pharisaicall pride . As I leave your raylings to be iudged by the Lord , so do I give the reader to vnderstand , how you grossely abuse Calvins authority : who expounds that scripture ( as all men know it is meant ) of excommunicates , and of mens private cariage towards them : with which , publick separation is also to be joyned : I suppose you your self will not deny it . And where you speak of an other course to be taken with wicked men , that wil not be reformed , you should also shew what that course is , and what is to be done , if that course be not taken : but you have thought it a point of your wisdome to be silent in these things least by opening them too particularly , you should discover your own shame .

The course to be taken is , the censuring of such incorrigible offenders by the particular congregation , whereof they are , being gathered together in the name of Christ , by the power of Christ ; with which 1 Cor. 5. power divine , and heavenly priviledge , he hath furnished his Churches every one of them , as well as that one of Corinth ; neyther doth any true Church of Christ want this power , or neglect the vse of it without sinne . And if any Church of Christ would neglect to vse this power against scandalous sin manifestly proved , and convinced , & would obstinately continue ( notwithstanding all good meanes vsed to the contrary ) this sower leaven vnpurged out , the whole lump were levened , and with leven might not the Passeover be eaten . And as the Church , if sin do arise , is first to endeavour the casting out of the sinne by the sinners repentance , and if that will not be , in the last place to cast out the sinne , and sinner together : so if the Church do wickedly bear out , and boulster iniquity amongst themselves , such as are faithfull are first to quit themselves of that Church-sin by testifying against it , and reproving it , and in the last place to quit themselves of the Church , if it remayn incurable . Now here you bring in certayn differences , & distinctions of separation , but without application . The first I omit as being before handled , so much as concerns the present purpose . The 2. difference is between the wicked remayning among the godly , & the godly being ▪ of the felowship of the wicked : this differece I acknowledg , & withall affirm , that the latter part of it notes out the estate of your nationall Church : wherein a few godly mynded in comparison , live in the fellowship of a wicked , and sinfull nation . And if persons excommunicate by the Church be not of her fellowship , then certaynly the number of the godly in your fellowship is very small : since your nationall Church representative , the convocation house ( whose Act also pag: 147. you avouch to be the Act of all the Church , & so to be accounted ) doth pronounce ipso facto excommunicated all that do affirm eyther the ceremonies of the Church , or goverment by Arch Bishops , Bishops , Deanes , Archdeacons , and the rest , to be Antichristian , Canon 4. 6 7. 8 . or the bookes eyther of common prayer , or of consecrating Bishops , Preists , and Deacons , to conteyn in them any thing vnlawful , or repugnant to the word of God . Your third distinction I passe by as impertinent : and the fourth , as being already handled , saue onely that in the end of it you bite at vs , as you go , for separating from Gods ordinances in the Church , for some wicked mens sake . But you know Mr B. that wee do not deem your Church-government , worship , ministery , and ministrations to be Gods ordinances : nor your Church in that confusion , wherein it was gathered , & consisteth , to be rightly possessed of the ordinances which it injoyes : no nor that any person how godly minded soever , can haue the right vse of Gods ordinances , in your assemblies , as they are publick joynt exercises of the communion of the body . In the fifth , and last difference , you speak of godly mens breaking society with themselves , bycause of some wicked persons . To which point I answer thus much ; since the L. Iesus hath given his Churches both power , and charge to put from among them such wicked persons , as do arise , and appear incorrigible ; and hath also taught by his Apostle , that the neglect of this duety levens the whol lump : that they which countenaunce , and continue in the Church such wicked persons against the godly zealous , which endeavour their reformation , that they I say , do break the society of the godly with themselves , and do rather make choise of the society of the wicked , whom they thus bolster , and bear out .

In the 3. place we are to consider of the matter entreated of , and found fault with by the Apostle , 2 Cor. 6. which you say , is in summe Mr B. thus much : beleevers are not to be with the wicked in their vnrighteousnes , in the state of their darknes , nor to partake with them in their evils , and so to agree together : which no way helps our separation from light , righteousnes , &c.

It is true that the particular matter the Apostle findes fault Answ: with , is , the beleeving Corinthians communicating with the vnbeleevers in the idol feasts : but withall it must be considered , that the Apostle vpon this particular occasion delivers a generall doctrine , then which nothing is more vsuall both in the old , & new testament . The same Apostle in his former Epistle to the same Corinthians takes occasion from the fornicatour among them , to forbid them the companying , or commingling not onely with fornicators , but with covetous persons , Idolaters , raylers , drunkards , extortioners , & all other wicked men whomsoever , ch. ● . 1. 11. so in this place , he takes occasion from their communicating with Idolaters in the Idolathytes , and the vncleannes thence arising , to enjoyn them separation from all other vncleannes whether of persons , or things , as the whole tenour of the scripture manifesteth . More particularly : though the Apostle ( as you would haue it ) did onely forbid partaking with the wicked in their evils , yet even therein did he forbid all religious communion with them since their very prayers , and other sacrifices are their evils : wherein whylst the godly do communicate with them , what do they els but acknowledge their common right , and interest in those holy things ? But that the Apostle in this scripture forbids communion not onely in the evill works of wicked men , but with their persons : and that he commaunds a separation not onely reall , but personall , doth appeare by these Reasons .

First , bycause the scripture hath reference to the yoaking of the I , beleevers with the vnbeleevers in mariage , as the occasion of that spirituall Idolatrous mixture , which he reproves . Now this ioyning was not in an evill , or vnlawfull thing , but with wicked , and vnlawfull persons .

2. The very terms , beleevers , vnbeleevers : light , darknes : Christ , Beliall , II. do import opposition not of things onely , but of persons also , for the things sake . So the faithfull are called * * Cor. ● . 21 righteousnes , † † Math. ● . 14. light , & as they are light , so are the vngodly “ “ Eph. 5. ● . darknes : and so not onely their works but their persons are called .

3. The Apostle forbids all vnlawful communion in this place : but there is an unlawfull communion of the faithfull with the wicked , III. in things lawfull : as with excommunicates , Idolaters , heretiques , or any other flagitious persons , in the sacraments , prayer , & other religious exercises in the respects formerly by me layd down : whervpon it was , that the Iewes were to separate themselves not onely from the manners of the heathen , but even from their persons . Ezra . 9. 1. 2. & 10. 2. 3 Nehem. 9. 2. & 10. 28. 30. and that Paul reproves the Corinthians , Epist. 1. Chap. 5. for having fellowship not in the persons incest , but with the incestuous person : whom therefore they were to purge out , & to put away from among themselves . vers. 5. 7. 13.

Fourthly , the Apostle enjoyns such a separation , as vpon which IIII. a people is to be reputed Gods people , the temple of the living God , & may chalenge his promise to be their God , to dwell among them , & to walk vers. 16. 17. there . And as , for the temple , where the Lord promised to dwell , the tymber , and stones , whereof it was to be built , were to be selected , and separated from all the trees in the for●est , and stones in the rock , and to be hewed , and squared accordingly , and so to be set together in that comely order , which was prescribed : so , that this spirituall house , or temple , the Church now , may have the promise of Gods presence , and dwelling there , it must be framed of spirituall stones , and timber first separated from the rest , & then fitted and prepared by that ax , or sword of the spirit , the word of God , and so coupled , and combyned together in due order , and proportion . Besides , it is evident , that the holy Ghost hath reference in this place to the people of the Iewes , which was separated from all other peoples , and persons in the world : as appeareth , Lev. 20. 24. and 26. 11. 12. therein noting out what must be the course , and condition of the “ “ G●● . 6. 16 Israel of God to the worlds end .

But here Mr Bern. excepts against our exposition of these places pag. 136. of Levit ▪ and the like , as miserably wrested , and falsly applyed to our separation . For by Gods separating them from other people , is meant , sayth he , Mr B. a setting apart of Abrahams posterity to a speciall service of God , and therein to be a people differing from all the world . And by other people is meant such as worshipped not the true God ; which is nothing to them that worship Iesus Christ , &c. but no Israelites to separate from other Israelites , which were even then when Moses thus spake of separation , a corrupt people a●●●g themselves .

And is this your righting of our wrestings Mr B ? Els-where you Answ. tell vs , that the Lord separates a people from others , and takes them to be his before he so much as commaund them any thing ▪ and here the pag. 176. Lord sets a people apart to be his , and separates them from others in respect of some special peice of service appointed them . The things you speak are contrary , but neyther of them true . The Lord never did , nor will take people vnto him , but by their submission , and obedience vnto his commaundements : and for that speciall † † R● . 9. 4. service of God enioyned the Israelites , it was an effect of their separation from other people , and covenaunt with God : and no cause by , or for which , they became the Lords separated people . We must alwayes consider the Church of God principally , and properly in the persons of men , and secondarily in their works : as we must first consider the “ “ Isa. 5. ● . 7 Math. 21. 33. 34. vineyard in the trees , and afterwards in the fruites they bring forth . And so was Israel separated , and set apart from other people . Your addition , tha● by other people , is meant such as worshipped n●●●he true God , which is nothing to you which worship Iesus Christ , &c. and that there is no place to prove that Israelites were to separate from other Israelites , for their corruptions , as false matter , is like that which goes before . For first , Papists , and Anabaptists , with Idolaters , and Heretiques many mo , do worship Iesus Christ ; from whose societies notwithstanding you professe separation . 2. The Ismaelites , & Edomites , did worship the true God , though not after a true manner , and yet the Israelites were a people separated from them : so as an Edomite ( though he had voluntarily joyned himself to the people of God ) might not beare any publick office amongst them , to the third generation , which you too ignorantly expound ▪ pag. 248 ▪ of his admission into the Church . Yea I do further adde , that even Israelites , and those which came of Israel , or Iaakob , were commaunded to separate themselves from Israelites , and that for an vsurpation in the ministery , as the scriptures make it playn , Num. 16. as afterwards also vpon Ieroboams defection in the ministery , worship , & holy dayes , which he forged in his own hart . 2 Chron. 11. 13. 14. 15. 16. with ● King . 12. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32.

And thus is the exposition cleared , against your frivolous exceptions of such scriptures in Levit: and els where as make mention of the separation of the Iewish nation from all other nations : which do fitly also serve to confirm , & justifie the separation of all the Churches in the new testament from such people and assemblies in all nations , as of whom the Lord by his revealed will cannot besayd to accept , as I am sure he cannot prophane , and godles persons .

Now bycause ▪ the yssue of all controversies depends vpon the true exposition of the scriptures , whose letter men will bring on both sides : and that Mr B. takes speciall exception in this place against the expositions we give of such scriptures , as seem to vs most materiall for our separation : I wil therefore take in his exceptions , as I return whence I came , and make manifest , as God inableth me , the insufficiencie of them .

The next place that comes into consideration is , Act. 2 ▪ 40. where , ●ayth Mr B. Peter speakes to the Iewes of such Iewes , as denyed Christ , & Mr B. renounced the very foundation , even Iesus Christ , which is ( if we will beleeve him ) nothing to them that profesie him to be the true Messias .

It seemes then that separation is not to be made from the Papists , Answ. for they hold I●sus Christ to be the true Messias , & the very foundation : yea even the merit of their works do they found vpon the merit of Christs obedience : derogating lesse in truth ( though far too much ) from them vertue of his Preisthood , then you do in the constitution of your Church from the dignity of his kingdom in the outward government , & administration of it . 2. Your nationall Church is so farre from being separated from them , that deny Christ , as it is indeed , for substance , compact , and gathered of such ▪ to wit of impure , and prophane persons , who whatsoever they do professe ●● word do deny in deed , and visibly both “ “ ●●● . 2. 15. 16. 〈◊〉 4. God , and our Lord Iesus Christ , as the scriptures do expresly testifie . And to deny that apparant wicked and prophane men , or Churches , do rayse the foundation of religion , is a prophane errour , tending to libertiuism : and which foundeth all religion , and Christianity in the brayn , and nothing in the heart . Lastly Peters exhortation vpon the occasion in hand , was , that the faithful Iewes should separate from that froward generation : wherevpon the generall doctrine is rightly raysed , that the faithfull at all tymes must be separated from all froward generations . And of this duty wee are to make the greater conscience , considering the words of the Apostle , which are , that we save our selves from such froward generations : as indeed ( considering the duty we ow vnto our brethren for their humbling , if they be froward in sinne ; the discomfort wee haue in continuing communion with them ; the want of that godly furtherance wee should haue by our brethren in our holy communion : and lastly the daunger wherein wee stand , eyther to be corrupted by them , or at least to haue our zeal , and other graces of God decayed in vs ) our salvation doth not a little consist in our departure from the assembly of the prophane , as Beza rightly notes vpon this scripture .

Of the same nature with the former place is the next in order ; where the Apostle Paul both departs himself , & separates the disciples from such as were hardened , and would not obey , but spake evill of the way of the Lord before the multitude . Act. 19. 8. 9. But this , you say , proves not our purpose : and your exceptions are ,

First , that our way is not the way of God ; 2. that if is were , yet wee Mr B. have not spoken to all your Church , & made it known to all , nor haue found all hard hearted : and 3. that the place teacheth separation from such obstinate wicked , which will not bee wonne to the Church : and that ▪ here is a departing of some true members of the Church , from such as be not the Church , but not of members of the true Church , forsaking members of the true Church .

That our way is the way of God , appeareth by this very scripture Answ. amongst many others : wherein also wee haue both the reformists at home , and reformed Churches abroad giving testimony with vs for the substance of it . But put the case ours be not , yet if the way of the reformed Churches be the way of God , our separation is justified by this scripture . For first , your convocation house & Church representative is hardened against the way of the reformed Churches , blaspheming , and persecuting it , and all them that eyther seek , or plead for it . And their act , being the cheif , is , by your own graunt , to be accounted the act of all , though the rest come not Pag. 145. to consent : so that you are all , by your own words , to be acounted a disobedient , and hardened people , vpon the former praemises , namely , that the way of the reformed Churches , is the way of God . But howsoever it be eyther with vs , or them ▪ yet if that “ “ Mat. 7. narrow way , whereof Christ speakes , that leads vnto life , be the way of God , then surely there are thowsands in your nationall Church , & many in every parish Ch: in the kingdom , which speak evill of the way of God , yea hate and persequute it to the vtmost of their power , and all them , that endeavour in any uprightnes to walk in it . Whereof you your self also Mr B. in former dayes haue had experience : though for the opposing , reviling , and persequuting of vs , you ▪ and they agreed well , & like Herod , & Pylate were made freinds . Now if wee separate from all them which thus disobey , and speak evill of the way of God , wee know too well , wee can have no communion with any assembly in the Land . Lastly , you are greatly overseen in saying that Pauls separation was not from the Church , nor members of the true Church . It was from the Church of the Iewes , & the members of that Church with whom formerly he had held commanion , as the true Church of God ; which for this their disobedience , Rom. 11. and vnbeleif , were broken off , and so afterwards in deed to be reputed .

One scripture more remayns to be considered of , and that is Ioh: 17 ver. 6. 9. 14. 15. 16. whence wee beleeve , and confesse , that the true visible Church of Christ is gathered by separation from the world , and the men of the world visibly . Against this our exposition Mr B. excepts , and will haue this place vnderstood of Mr B. the elect onely , that are ordeyned to life : & of invisible members : & of men as they are holy before God : rating vs , as egregious deceiptful abusers of this scripture , in applying it to the visible members , or Church .

But most vniustly as appeares by these three playne reasons . Answ.

First , bycause Iudas was one of them , whom the Father had given I. vnto Christ out of the world , whom alone of all them so given him , he had lost , that the scripture might be fulfilled . vers. 6. 12. whence it is evident to all men , that do not blinde their eyes , that Christ here speakes of such a donation , or gift , as was visible , or of such members as were visibly , and in respect of men separated , & sanctified from the world vnto God , and not at all of any invisible gift , or members .

Secondly , Christ speaks of such persons as the world hated , bycause II. they were not of the world : ver. 14. but the wicked world doth not hate men , as they are elect before God , and invisibly , or inwardly separated , and sanctifyed , but as they are outwardly such , and so separated , whether they be inwardly so , or no.

Lastly , Christ speakes of such a chusing out of the world , as III. he doth of a sending into the world , ver. 18. which sending as it was visible , and externall , so was the selection , and separation spoken of . And say not for shame , Mr B. that the visible Church of Christ is to be gathered , or consist of the men of the world visibly . The Church , and world are two distinct , yea two contrary states , and bodyes , though the body of your nationall Church were at the first gathered , and hath over since consisted of the world , and all .

To conclude , this light man , being pressed by Mr Ainsworth in another place of his book with this scripture , both affirms , & Pag. 254. proves by many reasons , that Christ here speaks of a mixt company , which the elect are not . And howsoever his reasons be not onely vnsound , but indeed vngodly , wherein he affirms Christ to haue been in respect of men the mediatour of Paul , whylst Mat. 27. 24. 17. with Luk. 23. 34. he continued a persequutour , and of others wicked in respect of men , yea of Pylate , and the soldiers , pagans , and infidels , bycause he prayed for them , ( whereas Christ prayer for them was no proper effect of his Mediatourship for his body , except we hold vniversall redemption , and make the whol world his body , but a most perfect demonstration of his love towards his enemyes , left also for a pattern vnto vs , to the worlds end ) yet do they , with that he there labours to prove by them , compared with his affirmation of the contrary , in this place , manifest his great both weaknes , and lightnes in the things he affirms .

And thus I return to the exposition of 2 Cor. 6. and in it to prove , that the Apostles meaning is to forbid communion , and fellowship not onely with wicked works , but also with the wicked persons themselves that walk in them . For which purpose I do ad this one onely consideration : namely that the Prophet Isaiah ( from whom the Apostle borroweth this phrase , come out from among them , vers. 17. separate your selves , and touch none vnclean thing , and I will receive you ) doth not so properly speak of the departure , or separation , which the Preists were to make from the sinns of the Babylonians , as from their coastes , and persons : thereby teaching all Christians , which are that spirituall house , and holy Preisthood , to offer vp spirituall sacrifices acceptable to God through Christ , 1 Pet. ● . 8. Rev. 1. 6. that their separation , and departure must be spiritually , as theirs was civilly , not onely from the sinnes of spirituall Babylonians , or other vnbeleevers , and vnclean persons , but even from their persons also , and from all personall communion with them . And as in the type , he that touched a dead man , or leper , or him that had an issue upon him , or other vnclean person , or was by him touched , was legally vnclean , & polluted , as well as he that touched , or was towched by any unclean thing whatsoever : Levit. 5. 7. 11. so in the thing typed , and truth , he that toucheth , or is touched by a man spiritually dead in sinns , or that hath an yssue of sinne , or spirituall leprosie running upon him , he is spiritually polluted and defiled . Now without touching cannot the numbers of the same body , and one of 1 Cor. 12. 2. 13. 27. another possibly consist .

But were it , as wee would haue it , that not onely the works , but even the workers of wickednes were to be avoyded for their works sake ▪ yet doth Mr B. take a double exception against our interpretation of this scripture . The former is , that it serves not our Mr B. turn , except we prove them all to live in darknes , in vnrighteousnes , to be in league with the Divel . &c.

I do answer , that if light and darknes , beleevers and vnbeleevers , Answ. Christ and Beliall , must haue no fellowship together , then must the beleevers , and they that are in Christ forbeare fellowship with all vnbeleevers , & men of Beliall , so continuing incorrigible : & if any beleevers , or Christians will notwithstanding still combyne with vnbeleevers , and godles men , it is their sinne thus to confound the order which God hath set in separating from the faithfull , with whom he hath joyned them , by joyning with the vnbeleevers , & vnfaithfull , from whom he hath † † 1 Cor. 4. 7. separated them ; yea I adde , in doviding Christ from himself , and vniting him with Beliall , & the Divill , in his members , what in them lyeth . To conclude , what reason hath Mr B. thus to obiect , that all which are amongst them , live not in darknes , and that all are not in league with the Divel , considring , that by his own exposition of this place , the very societies of Papists are to be left as no people of God , and yet all Papists live not in darknes , as here he vnderstands it , nor are in league with the divell : neyther in deed had they need , considering what league of spirituall communion he professeth els where he will have with many of them .

Mr B. 2. obiection , is , ( which he also makes the 4. head of his Mr B. division ) that there is no proportion betwixt the persons here mentioned , to be separated from , being infidels , and such as were no members of the Church , and Gentiles , that had enterteyned no profession of Christ , on the one side : and the members of the Church on the other side : and that the consequence followes not from infidels , Heathens , Pagans , Idolaters , led by the Divell , to Christians professing Christ , though in life not answerable to their profession .

Even now you justified separation from Papists by this scripture : Answ. and here you restreyn it vnto Infidels , and Gentiles , that had not enterteyned any profession of Christ : as though Papists were infidels , or without all profession of Christ , which is contrary both to truth , and to your own expresse affirmation * * pag. 132. 225. 226. every where .

But my answer is , that howsoever infidelity , and Idolatry be two greivous sinnes , and which do principally separate those which continue in them , from God , & his Church , yet not they alone , but any other transgressions as well as they , obstinately stood in , do rayse this wall of separation : as is manifest in the scriptures .

And first , the Apostle in this very place disioynes righteousnes & I. vnrighteousnes , light & darknes , as farre a sunder , as beleevers & vnbeleevers , as the temple of God & Idols : in which former also , the vnion betwixt Christ & Belial is as monstrous , as in the latter . Vnto which I do also adde , that Mr B. in this very place , debarring infidels , and idolaters from being matter of the true Church , Rom. 8. 14. Gal. 5. 15. 2 Tim 2. 26. 1 Ioh. ●3 . 8. layes this down as a cause , or reason , that they are led by the Divel : wherevpon it followeth , that since none other wicked men are led by Christ , but all by the Divell , aswell as they , that none other can be matter of the true Church , more then they . And that some persons led by the Divel should be matter of the Church , and some not , is a distinction not found in the scriptures , but devised for a remedy against the iniquities of the tymes , and for the avoyding of trouble , and dissipation . I● .

Secondly , as the scriptures do every where denounce the same judgements vpon other wicked men , and vpon idolaters , and infidels ; for example , that , as well he † † Ezech. 18 & 11. 12. 13. that de●ileth his neighbours wife , or oppresseth the poore , or gives forth vpon vsury , shall dy the death , as he that eates vpon the mountaynes , or lifts vp his eyes vnto the Idols : and that aswell “ “ Rev. 22. 1● . see also chap● . 2● . 8. whoremongers , un●rtherers , and such as love , or make lyes ▪ as Idolaters , shal be without the heavenly Ierusalem : so do they also both warrant , & direct vs the same course of walking towards the one , and other . The Lord Iesus , Mat. 18. 17. enjoyns the Church to account every obstinate offender as an Heathen . And the Apostle Paul gives the Corinthians in charge as much to avoyd † † 1 Cor. 5. 11. form●atours , covetous persons , raylers , drunkers , and ●xtortioners , as Idolaters . And no marvayl , for * * Ephe. 5. 5 . covetous persons are Idolaters ; and so are carnall men , Idolaters , making * * Phil. 3. 19. their belly their God . Vnto these adde , that the same Apostle vnto ‘* ‘* Ch: 1. 15 16. T●tus calles vnholy , and profane persons ( what profession of God soever they make ) † † 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . unbeleevers , or Infidels , which are the same . Which scripture I wish the Reader to observe in respect of Mr B. bould ch●lendge of all the Brownists in the world to sh●w the term , or name of vnbeleevers to be given to such as are not become absolute Apostates from Christ . Pag. 2● ▪ ● .

Lastly , unto that which Mr B. ob●●●teth in the fifth , and last place against our exposition of this scripture to the Corinth : for our separation , namely that at this very tyme , when the Apostles thus Mr B. writ , there were of them which did partake with the heathen that they were a mixt company , among whom were dissentions , envying , open incest , drunkennes at the Lords supper , fornication , wantonnes , men denying the resurrection , I do give this answer .

As there was this mixture in the Church at this tyme , so doth Answ. the Apostle most severely reprove the same . For the incestuous man suffred vncensured , he pronounceth the whole lump levened , 1. Epist. 5. chapt: For th● abuse of the Lords supper , that they came together not with profit , but with hurt , chap. 11. 17. where I entreat the reader also to take knowledge of the counsayl , which vpon that occasion Beza gives in his Annotations vpon ver. 31. which is , that we try , and examine our selves , by faith , and repentance , separating our selves from the wick●d . For this very sin here spoken of ▪ namely their partaking with Idols in the Idolothytes , that they could not partake of the Lords supper . “ “ 1 Cor. 10 21. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord , & the cup of Divels . You cannot be partakers of the Lords table , & of the table of Divels . And in this very place about which we now contend , that except they separated themselves , & left this their vngodly mixture , they could not haue the promise of the Lord , that he would dwel among them , and walk there , & that he would be their God , and haue them his people , ver. 16. And doth the holy Ghost in leaving these things recorded give any countenance to a mixt company ? or can you from hence eyther take unto your self , or give unto others any comfort in your , or their confused walking ? Will you make your self a medicine of their poyson ? or a playster of their vlcers ? You are a physition of no val●w . Besides , it must be considered , that all the evils mentioned amongst the Corinthians were contrary to their constitution , and so many aberrations , and defections from that estate , and condition wherein the the Ch: was gathered . It is evident that Paul † 1 Cor. 3. 6. 9. planted the Ch: at Corinth , he being Gods labourer , and it Gods husbandry . Now who dare open so prophane a mouth , as to affirm , that this faithfull labourer would plant the Lords vineyard with such imps , or gather vnto him a Church of any such slagitious persons , as fornicators , drunkers , incestuous men , or such as denyed the resurrection ?

But what is this to your nationall Church , which was constituted , and gathered , for the greatest part , of fornicatours , drunkerds , blasphemers and the like ? with such wild branches was your vineyard planted .

Thus much of our interpretation , & application of 2 Cor. 6.

I will here onely adde one argument more to prove your nationall Church vncapable of the new covenant , or testament , by which you your self do graunt , and truely , the Church of Christ to be formed .

The Prophet Ieremy spe●king in the name of the Lord , of the calling of the Gentiles into the new covenaunt , or testament , as the authour to the Hebrewes expoundeth him , testifieth , that with whom soever the Lord would make that † † ●ere . 31. 3● 33. 34. Heb 8. 8. 10. 11. 12. testament , or covenant , he would put his law in their mind , and write them in their heart , and so be their God , and make them his people : and that they should all know him from the least to the greatest , and that he would be mercifull vnto their s●●nes , and remember their iniquities no more . But your nationall Ch: never came within the compasse of this promise , that all in it should know the Lord , haue their sinnes forgiven them , and his lawes written in their heart . Therefore your nationall Church is not within the Lords covenaunt , nor ever 〈…〉 , nor his people having Pag. 153. him for their God . Your exceptious in your 2. book to this Argument are insufficient . The first is , that by this exposition hypocrit●s should not be under the covenaunt , bycause the law of God is not written in their harts . But my answer is that hypocrites in respect of God and his secret , invisible , and approving will , and calling , are not of the Church , nor under the covenaunt : but in respect of men , & of the revealed will of God , according to which men must judge , all that are outwardly holy , have their sinns forgiven , and the law of God written in their harts . And to your 2. exception , namely , that the place is not vnderstood barely of a member of the visible Church , but so of it , as withall he be an elect saynt , I do answer , it is true you say , ●onsidering what bare members of the visible Church you make , & of what members your Church is most what made , even such as ar both bare , and empty of all grace , and appearance of grace . But let them be such in any measure , as of whom the Lord in his word gives approbation , and whom he entitles to the visible ordinances in his Church , and then they are not barely visible members , as you speak , but elect saynts also , in the respects formerly mentioned . It is evident that both Ieremy , and the Apostle to the Hebrewes speak of the new testament , or covenant of grace , whereof Christ is the mediatour in his own blood ; opposed to the old testament , and covenaunt of works established by Moses in the blood of bulles , and goates : and of the persons with whom the Lord makes this covenant , and which haue legacies in this will , and testament of Christ , which he hath also confirmed by his death : which do all know God , and have his law written in their harts , and their sinns pardoned . And there is nothing more derogatory to the grace of God , and blood of Christ , then that any within the compasse of this covenant of grace , or having a portion in this testament established in Christs blood , should not haue his iniquities forgiven , and his heart sanctifyed by the spirit , truely or in appearance , as he is truely or apparantly partaker of the former graces . And here also appears the vanity of your third exception so oft repeated by you , to wit , that you are not all without the law of God written in your harts , and without the forgivenes of sinnes , but that some of you have obteyned this grace . As though the quaestion were of some few in your Church , & not of the whole Church . If you minded what you had in hand , you should see , that to prove your Church within the covenaunt of the new testament , you were bound to manifest , not that some few , but that all the members of it were ( at the least in the constitution ) partakers , of those promises , wherein it is established : the reason is bycause not some few severally , but all the members joyntly considered , do make the Church .

Iohn in * * Chap. 9. 7. 8. the Revelation describing the Locusts , sayth of them , that they had faces like the faces of men , & hayre like the hayre of women . Doth it therefore follow they were men , or women , bycause they had eyes , mouthes , noses , & some other members that men , & women haue ? So neyther is a profane people a true Christian Church , or body of Christ for some few Christianlike persons v●tequally yoked with them , since the Church , or body , as I haue formerly sayd , consisteth not of some few but of all the members coupled , and combyned together in one communion .

And thus much to prove that lewd & vngodly persons , so continuing , are uncapable of the new covenant , or testament consumed by the death of Christ : and that they haue no fellowship , or vnion with God in Christ , in whom alone he establisheth his covenant : and if any man will affirm the contrary , not I , but Iohn by the word of God , reproveth him expressely for * * 1 Ioh. ● . 8 a lyar . And in deed what more impudent untruth can there be affirmed , then that an apparant visible lim of Satan should be an apparant , or visible member of Christ , or that gracelesse persons should be within the covenant of grace , and salvation , as is that coven●●t into which the Lord gathereth , and in which he uniteth his Ch: vnto himself ?

For conclusion of this point , let the reader observe , that as the Church is essentially constituted by this vnion of the members with God , and one with another , so , consider it as an ecclesiasticall policy instituted by Christ the King thereof ; and then that form , or ord●r of government , which he hath set , and which the Apostolik Churches vsed , and enjoyed , is the form of it : as it is in all other po●ici●s , corporations , and common wealthes in the world . Which form of government the Church of England is so far from enjoying , a● it hates worse then Papists all that in any measure desire it .

Now as from the matter , & form of the Church concurring do arise the properties , so would Mr B. in the next place iustify against us , that the congregations amongst them have the true visible properties of the Church , which he makes three in number : the first , their continuance Mr B. in he●●●ng of the d●●h me of Christ re●r●ved , and vsing of the sacraments , and prayer . 2. the holding out of this truth , and the sacraments , as banners displayed against the enemy . 3. a care for the welfare of all , and every one for the whole , and each for other : though in his “ “ ●ag ●83 . ●84 . ●85 . 2. book ( as if it ●ad not been he ) 1. the h●ldin● out of the profession of the person covenanted with , Christ Iesus : 2. the holding the words of the covenant● , the written w●●● of God : 3. the m 〈…〉ng of the publication of this covenant by the 〈◊〉 and 〈…〉 the assemblies , are become the properties of the Church : as if the Church were as chaungeable in her properties , as 〈◊〉 in his .

And here I must needs take knowledge of Mr B. distinction in Answ. his ▪ 2. book betwixt the properties and priviledges of the Church , and the rather , bycause he layes it down with great ostentation for our learning , as he sayth . His distinction is , that properties arise from within the Church , and priviledges from without : and my learning from his distinction is , that he vndertakes to teach others , where he hath not yet learnt himself . His errour then is in the too streyt acception of the term property , which he should take in a larger sense , as Mr Smyth hath rightly taught him : namely that , whatsoever is proper vnto a person , or thing ( whether within , or without ) and not common to other things , or persons with him , or it , that is a property , or property of that person , or thing . And so since all the priviledges wherewith Christ hath endowed his Church , are proper , and peculiar vnto the Church , and not common to her with the world , it is most evident , they are all of them the Churches properties , and so to be accounted , though she may for a tyme want the actuall vse of many of them . And even those priviledges , which your self bring for instances , are true properties of the Church : as to be called saynts , faithful , elect : to suffer for Christ : to be the ark to keep the books of the covenant : to set to the seales : to vse the keyes to open , & to shut heaven : then which what can be more proper or peculiar vnto the Church ? And it is strange that sayntship , and holynes , grace to suffer for Christ , and the like should not be accounted more naturall propertyes of the Church , then a prophane profession of faith and vsurpation of some ordinances of religion by lewd , and vngodly persons .

But towching the properties of the Church by you layd down , my answer is , that except your nationall Church be that true Israell of God , which he hath admitted joyntly , and severally into the covenant & fellowship of grace , & salvation , and to whom he hath given the promises of that covenant , and to whom by his revealed will the seales , and sacraments for the confirmation of those promises , do apperteyn , the more you meddle with this covenant by professing or publishing it , the more you take Gods name in vayn ; and the more of the ordinances of God , & his covenant , you vse , and injoy , the more you abuse , & vsurp : & the longer you continue in so doing , the more dangerous is your estate , & the more to be bewayled .

And for the things themselves by which you would haue the Ch: of Christ distinguished from all other assemblies , they are such , as may in the outward ceremony , and observation of them , without any sanctifyed vse ( which is the point in controversy between me and you ) both be performed , and continued in , eyther for feare , or fashion by any accursed conventicle of atheists , murderers , adulterers or the like ; yea by a company of men , and women excommunicated for these , & the like transgressions . And can these things which ly thus in comon to all , be the true properties of the Church ?

2. I must be bould to tell you Mr B. that the holding out of the truth , & sacraments are not so properly the displayed banners of your Church , as is the observation of your popish ceremonies . The surplise is a banner far broader displayed then the preaching of the gospel , or ministration of the sacraments ; the crosse is a standard higher advanced then baptism ; so is kneeling , then the Lords supper : without th●se neyther the word may be preached , nor the sacraments administred , but where these banners are set vp , and fayre borne , there is that which is required , & will serve the turn , though there be very litle truth held out , eyther by preaching , knowledge , or obedience , but the contrary .

Lastly , where speaking of the marks , and tokens of the true Ch: you will the reader to observe well , that they are not the word truely preached , nor the sacraments rightly administred : but the true word preached , and the true sacraments administred ▪ I cannot but observe it well , and in it , both your errour , and lightnes . In your litle † † pag. 13. 14. catechism printed 1602. you demaund this quaestion ▪ What are the marks of the true Church here on earth ? to which your answer is , amongst some other things : Christs word truely preached , and his sacraments rightly administred . But now in your Separatists schism , not the word truely preached , * * Pag. 122 132. but the true word , nor the sacraments rightly administred , but the true sacraments are the infallible , and convertible marks , and tokens of the Ch: in the iudgement of ill the divines at home , and in all the reformed Churches in Christendome . Now that which I observe hence is , that Mr B. is one in his catechism , where he labours with good conscience to instruct his people in the knowledge of God , and another in his Invective , headily begun , and unconscionably prosequuted . In the former he endeavoured with good conscience to lay down the grounds of Christian religion : but now considering that the Christian grounds there layd will not beare the Antichristian confused building , which he is to defend in his latter book , he chuseth rather to rase his former Christian foundations , and to lay new , & those contrary , then to leave one stone of Babell vndawbed with his vntempered morter . Now for the point it self let the reader obserue these few particulars .

First , that rightly , and truely in preaching , and administration , are by Mr B. very ignorantly restrayned to the holy graces of the Church : for which , right , and lawfull persons by , and to whom these administrations are to be made , are required . And are persons graces , Mr Bernard ?

2. It is not true you affirm , that all divines hould the true word , and true sacraments ( though not truely nor rightly administred ) the infallible tokens of the Church . I do not remember that ever I read this phrase the true word before , in any wryters . Such as write of these things are generally against you , as you are against Art. 19. the truth . Your own articles of religion condemn you , which make it a property of the Church to haue the sacraments duely administred . And since the word , and sacraments are divine ordinances instituted by the Lord for certayn ends , and purposes , and determined to circumstances of persons , as by , & to whom they must be administred , it is necessary wee measure , and defyne them by the manner of ministration : otherwise wee make them but as the charmes of wizards , or at the best , as the prayers of Papists , which they account true , if so many words be sayd over by whomsoever , or howsoever . The word of God may be , and oft times is , in a great measure preached , or published vpon a stage ; and what if the sacraments should be added to it , were here a true Church marked out ? And as the word , and sacraments may be sacrilegiously vsurped by them which are no Church of Christ , nor haue any right at all vnto them , so may the true Church of Christ be for a time without them , though never without spirituall right vnto them ; as in the tyme of some great plague , when the Church dare not assemble , or of persequ●tion , when it is severed eyther by bonds , or ●light . It doth not then cease to be a Church , no nor a visible Church neyther . It remayns visible in it self though it be not actually seen , or open to the ey of all ( as you speak ) as colours are alwayes visible , and sounds audible in themselves , though for the present they be neyther seen nor heard . But what do I striving with this man , which needs none other adversary but himself ? As he crosses his first book with his second : so doth he both crosse , and confute his second by his third . In his first , he will haue the word truely taught , and the sacraments rightly administred to be the marks of the true Church : in his 2. the true word preached though not truly , & the true sacraments administred though not rightly , are in●allible tokens , and reciprocally converted with the Church : in the 3. & last book , † † Pag. 286 the Church may be a Ch: without the vse of the sacraments for a long tyme , as the Ch: of Israel was in the wildernes , so it be not done of contempt : and such as are eyther no Church of God at all , or an antichristian assembly , may haue , and vsurp the seales put to a blank as Ismael , & Esau out of the Church had circumcision , and the Papists now have baptism . And that which he sayth of Baptism , may as truely be sayd in cases , of the word , and the publication of it by reading , and interpretation . As the true Church may for a time want the vse of both , so may a false Ch: vsurp , and abuse both , as well the wryting , as the seal . ' * * Rev. 2. 1. ● . 5. He that held the seven starres in his right hand , and walked in the middest of the seven golden candlesticks , threatned the Church of Ephesus , that he would shortly remove her candlestickout of his place , for leaving her f●rst love , except she repented , though she still held and vsed the word , and sacraments : and if a company of schismatiques leaving a Church without cause , or of excommunicates justly cast out of the Church should vnite themselves together , vsurping and assuming the word , and sacraments , and professing the covenant outwardly , and in the letter , did this their ●old vsurpation make them a true visible Church of Christ ? The matter is , the true Church may want vpon occasion the vse , or administration of the word , and sacraments , but never the right , power , and interest in , and vnto them : so may a false assembly vsurp o● assume them , but never have right or power from Christ unto them . And this spirituall power , and liberty arising from the Lords visible covenaunt , to communicate , and partake in the visible promises , & ordinances of it , is the true essentiall propertie of the visible Church : as is the faculty of reasoning the property of a reasonable man , and the faculty of seing , hearing , tasting , and the like , the property of a sensible creature ; though neyther the one haue the actuall vse of reason for the present , nor the other of sense .

The third , and last property of the Church Mr B : makes , the care for the welfare of all , and every one for the whole , and each for other : Mr B. & this eyther corporall for the maintenance of the body , as in almes deeds . Act. 2. 42. or spirituall touching the sowle , which standeth in admonition , and exhortation , and so ●orth , as 1 Thes. 5. 11. which also he sayth they , and their congregations have .

It is noted of some persons beside themselves , that all the Answ. ships they see in the haven , and fayr houses in the country , they think , and say , are theirs : where if they were in their right witts , they would both know and acknowledge , that they were poore , and beggarly , and had nothing . So is it with this man , bycause he reads in the scriptures , that the Apostolicall Churches consisted of saynts ; and were gathered by voluntary profession , into the covenant of God ; that they had given them , and did enjoy by the Lords gift , and donation , his word , sacraments , & other ordinances ; and did in that holy communion , whereunto they were called , exercise themseves mutually for the welfare one of another both bodily , and spiritually : therevpon he concludes peremptorily that the Church of England , whereof he is , and for which he pleads , hath all these things : and that they haue all these properties : where if he had a sound mind , and an honest heart in the things of God , he would both see & confesse , that things were nothing lesse with them , then as he sayth ; and that in stead of this great and vniversall aboundance , whereof he boasteth , there were generally nothing but spirituall beggary , and want . “ “ Rev. 3. 1● Thou sayest I am rich , and increased with goods , & have need of nothing , & knowest not how thou art wretched , and miserable , and poor ▪ and blind , and naked .

More particularly ; as you want the office of Deaconship , which Christ hath left by his Apostles for the collection , and distribution of the Churches almes , and haue enterteyned under the true name , a false , and forged office of half preisthood , perverting and misapplying Book of ordination , Art. 6. to the iustification of it , such holy scriptures , as are left for the calling , and ministration of true , and lawfull Deacons in the Church of Christ : so is there not that care for the bodily welfare one of another amongst you in any measure , whereof you boast . The needlesse , and endlesse suits , and quarrels amongst you filling all your courts , and judgement seats ; your dayly thefts , and murthers amongst the members of your Church ; the continuall cousenings , and circumventions one of another ; the vsuryes , oppressions , extortions , which overflow both country and city , as did the waters in the time of Noah , both the valleys , & hilles , do too manifestly shew how farre you are from this care of the welfare ech of other bodily , whereof you thus vainly boast . But though this care of ech for other , both bodily and spiritually , be almost wholly Mr B. wanting , yet ( say you ) the Church is not to be iudged a false Church , no more then the houshould is to be iudged a false houshould , bycause there is not that care that ought to be amongst them of the family : or a man a false man if through folly , madnes , or wilfulnes , he neglects the welfare of his body .

Surely it had not need , considering how not onely this is wanting , Answ. but how the contrary aboundeth in all places . And to let passe all other matters , no man is ignorant what care the two great factions in the Church , that of the Prelates , and the other of the Reformists do take , each for other , namely how ech may subvert , and root out the other . And for your similitudes borrowed from an houshold , and a body , as wee deny your Church to be † † Ephe. 2. 19. & 4. 16 that houshold of God , or body of Christ , wherein every member hath his effectuall working , in his measure , as the Apostle speaketh , so is there no way the like reason of them , and of the Church , in the respect , wherein you compare them . A man doth not , nor cannot cease to be a true man naturally by any meanes , if his person survive : neyther can a family cease to be a true family civily , if it be not dissipated and dissolved : but a Church though the same persons survive still , and combyne together , as they did , may cease to be the true Church of Christ : and may eyther become no Church by forsaking all profession of Christianity , or a false Church by holding , and professing themselves stil Christians , & in fellowship with God through Christ , when being considered by the revealed will of God , and testament of Christ , they are in truth & in deed , neyther the one , nor the other . And considering what * * Epist. 3. 10. Iohn sayth , that he which loveth not his brother , and so consequently cares not for his welfare which issueth from the former , as the stream from the spring , is not of God , nor of his children , but of the children of the Divel ; and withall , that you your self right now did place the form , & covenant of the Church in a great measure , in the manifestation , and testimony of love in the members each to other , and so consequently of care ech for the welfare of other , I see not how that Church can be accounted the houshould of God consisting of his children by the word of God , or the body of Christ vnited & coupled together of his members , by your owne doctrine , where this love of , and care for each other is visibly , and outwardly wanting .

But to passe over all other things , the point vpon which Mr B. insists , and which he would most gladly fasten vpon the reader , is , Mr B. that the power of the censures , and of excommunication , termed by the name of discipline , howsoever it be a thing necessary for the wel being of the Church , yet is it no essentiall property , nor of such necessity , but that a true Church may be without it . And this ( wanting scriptures , or reasons to confirm it ) he affirms again , and again , and in the end , illustrates by a similtude taken from a man who is not therefore a false man , though he can neyther see , nor g●e , nor speak .

It is recorded of one THEODOTIVS , that having denied Christ Answ. in persequution , to lessen his sin , he went about to lessen Christ , and taught that he was mere man , and not God : so many , in the case of Christs government , that their own and other mens sinne may seem lesser , in not vsing , or submitting vnto it , do labour to extenuate , and make it lesse excellent , or vsefull then it is : and therevpon one telles vs it is not a part of Gods worship , nor of religion ; another that it is a thing indifferent , arbytrary , & changeable ; a third that it is not simply necessary for the true Church : as Mr B : in this place . The vnsoundnes of whose affirmation , & illustration , I will by and by manifest , the Lord assisting me ; in the mean while I do desire the reader to observe with me these two things in his writings about this point .

The former is , that , in labouring thus earnestly to perswade ( as here he doth ) that the power of excommunication is not of simple necessity , he in effect graunts that , which all men know to be true , namely , that the Churches in England do want this power ▪ Now if here he answer , as he doth in his " 2. book , that , though pag. 261. the power of excommunication ●e not in every parish , yet it is in the Church of England in which is comprehended all pa●rishes , and all superiour power over these Parishes , in which is the power of Christ , I reply these particulars .

First that he might thus answer , though one Bishop alone had engrossed into his hands all this power ; yea a Papist might answer thus for the Popes sole authority over all the Churches in the world , yea though he should communicate the same with no other person , or persons .

2. Let this mans shifting be well noted . When both in this , and the other book he pleads for the Ministery in the Church , he passes by the Nationall , Provinciall , and Diocesan Ministery , and speaks onely of the Ministery in some parishes , where some honest zealous preachers are , but now comming to plead for the power of Christ in the Church , he takes the contrary course , and passing by the parishes , takes his flight to the Nationall , Provinciall , and Diocesan Ministery there to find comfort .

3. the quaestion here as he himself puts it , pag. 125. of this book is about particular congregations , which , he sayth , there are with them , having true matter , true form , and true properties . whereof excommunication is one . To this also adde , that in the end of his book he a●oucheth the Ministers affirmation , that this power is given to the particular pag. 180. congregations in the land .

4. & lastly , I haue formerly manifested , from Mat. 18. & 1 Cor. 5. that this power , and praerogative is given to a particular congregation , ( besides which the new testament acknowledgeth none other visible Church : ) and if that one particular * * Math. 18 ●● . 20. 1 Cor. ● 2. and ● . 4. 5 6. 12. 13. Church , or congregation a● ▪ Corinth gathered together into the name of the Lord Iesus Christ , had the promise of his presence , and that he would be in the m●ddest of them , and were by this power of the Lord Iesus Christ , to deliver to Sat●n , purge out , iudge , and put away wicked men from among them ( for fayling in which duety , they were reproved by the Apostle ) then why not every other particular Church or congregation of Gods people , as well as that one ? espetially since that , as all other scriptures , was written for our learning ; and that there is but † † Ephe. 4. 4. 5. one Church , or body , as there is but one Lord : one , that is , in matter , form , and essentiall properties . see pag. 267

The 2. thing I desire may be noted , is , that Mr B : doth if not pag. 126. deceiptfully , yet vnfitly comprehend the power of the censures vnder the care for the welfare of the Church : since this power may be full and intire , where the care is eyther very little , or not at all : as it came to passe in the Church of Corinth , which had this power 1 Cor. 5. alwayes amongst them , but neglected the vse of it , and therein the care for the welfare of the Church which they should have had , & for which neglect they were reproved by the Apostle .

Now for the similitude , I do except against it in a double respect : first for that God doth oft times deprive a man of the naturall power of seing , going , and speaking , by naturall infirmities within , or bodily violence from without : but Christ never deprives his Church of this spirituall power of excommunication , neyther can it be impeached by any outward violence : onely Antichrist exalting himself against all that is called God , and intruding himself into the throne of Christ , doth deprive the Church of God , and of Christ , of this liberty , and power ; and so all those Churches , or congregations over whom he thus vsurpeth , receive his mark , & are in that respect subject to his judgement . 2. Mr B : as I have formerly observed , doth most vnaptly compare the power of casting out offenders to the faculty of seing , speaking , and the like : it is more fitly resembled to the want of power to void , and purge excrements , which is prodigious in nature ; & so neyther the naturall , nor spirituall body so constituted can possibly consist , or live . And for the parts of the body , to which he here hath reference , and the like ; they do more fitly resemble the officers of the Church , then the ordinance of excommunication : the eyes , and mouth the Bishops , and Elders , which are to oversee , and teach the Church : the hands , the Deacons , who are to distribute her almes . And a● there may be a true ( though an vnperfit ) naturall body without these parts , so may there be a true visible Church , or body of Christ , without these officers , though vnperfect , and defective .

It now remayns I lay down some reasons to prove the power of the censures , & of excommunication , simply necessary vnto the Church of Christ . The Reasons are ,

First , bycause it is simply necessary for the being of a Church , I. that there be power for true members to joyn together , and so to receive others vnto them : even so consequently must there be power to disioyn , and cut of false members .

2. Excommunication , and absolution are of the same nature II. with preaching the gospel : yea the very same , particularly applyed to persons obstinate , and repentant , which preaching is in the generall . The † † Rom. 1. 16. preaching of the gospell is the power of God vnto salvation to every one that beleeveth : excommunication is * * 1 Cor. 5. 4 ▪ 5. the power of the Lord Iesus Christ , for the destruction of the fl●sh , of him that is otherwise incorrigible , that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Iesus . The preaching of the gospel makes the first , or major proposition thus ; he that beleeves not , and repents not , is bound in heaven , and hath his sinn● vnremitted ; but he that beleeves , and repents , his sinn● are pardoned , and he loosed in heaven . Now excommunication , and absolution applyed to a particular person , and occasion , do make the second , or minor proposition thus : thou beleevest not , or repentest not of this thy sinne , and therefore thou art bound in heaven , and thy sinnes vnpardoned : and so of absolution , or the loosing of sinns . Adde also vnto these things , that the same Bishops , or Elders are to preach the gospel in way of doctrine , and to minister the censures in way of discipline , though in some divers order , as I haue formerly shewed . And these two being the two mayn duties of the Ministers , comprehended vnder this generall duety of “ “ Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. ● Tim. 5. 17 feeding the stock , must needs be of the same nature : both of them mayn , and necessary parts of Gods worship , and of religion , and so to be performed vpon the Lords day , as his work , and in the assembly of the saynts , as an exercise of their holy communion , howsoever with you , and others , they are made a consistory , and working day matter , to the great violation , and indignity of the kingdom of Christ , in the dispensation of it in his Church .

3. The want of excommunicating and censuring wicked men III. † † ● Cor. 5. 6. levens the whole lump : and makes the whole particular congregation whereof they are , accessary to their sinne : and to purpose to continue in such a congregation , or Church , as hath not this power , is to purpose to continue in disobedience to the commandement of the Lord Iesus which he hath layd vpon all his disciples to “ “ Math. 18. 1. 15. 17 tell the Church in the order by him prescribed .

4. Without the censures , the Church * * Rev. 18. 2 becomes of Syon , Babylon , IIII. even the habitation of Divels , and the hold of all ●owl spirits , and a cage of every vnclean , and hatefull byrd . And so Mr B. in his forenamed † † pag. 15. 16. catechis●●● teacheth that the holy , and right vse of discipline , and of excommunication serves to maint●yn the Church , and to over throw haeresy , that destroyes the foundation , and other mischiefs . And since haeresy destroyes the foundation , as Mr B. teacheth ; and that “ “ 1 Cor. 1● 19. there must be haeresies in the Church , as Paul teacheth : and that the Church cannot possibly be purged of them , without excommunication ; that must needs be absolutely necessary to the Church , without which the Church must absolutely necessarily come to naught .

To these I do adde , as a fifth , and last Reason , that as † † Math. ● . 16. 1 Pet. 2 12. and 3. 1 Rom. 2. 24. the glorie V. of God , & salvation of them without , are most furthered , and advantaged by the holy conversation of the members of the Church : and on the contrary most disadvantaged , and hindered , by their vnholy , and prophane courses : so is the power of excommunication , by which solemn ordinance alo●e , prophanenes & impiety are rooted out , of absolute necessity for the Churches of Christ . And of this point I desire the reader to take knowledge , not onely as of a matter of truth , but of conscience also , and for practise .

That which Mr B : reputes our nynth errour , is our holding all Mr B. their ministers false Ministers . Answ.

As I have formerly sayd of your Churches , so say I here of your ministers : that if one be false , all are : for all are of one constitution . In deed Mr B : if he might be let alone , would save himself much labour this way , by restreyning his defence to some few of the most able , and conscionable men excluding the rest : and therefore in his former book , he speaks of such ministers , as God hath “ “ pag. 132. 133. furnished with gifts to discharge their function : with holy graces : & a blamelesse lif● : and in his 2. book , he desires to * * pag. 290. be vnderstood of such as are sent of God , and set over congregations , according to the truth , and true meaning of the lawes , and book of ordination . In which he doth directly exclude the Archbishops , Bishops , Suffragans , Deanes , Archdeacons , Chauncelours , Commissaries , and with them , all pluralists , non-residents , vnpreaching , and prophane ministers . For some of these are not set over congregations at all , but over Provinces , & Diocesse : others not in respect of their offices above named : and others , though they be set over particular Churches , yet haue they neyther gifts , nor graces for their function . But as he were nothing faythfull vnto a city , that vndertaking the defence of it , should p●ck out here and there a corner most strong , and defensible , and fortify there , leaving the body of the city to the invasion , & spoyl of any that would assault it : so neyther is Mr B : faythfull to the Ministery of England , who pretending the defence of it against vs , calls out here and there a man , whom he will iustifie , and leaves the body , and all the principall members of it vndefended . And here I would demaund of him why he doth not as well defend all the Ministers , in this place , as he did even now defend all the people , or why a Minister so called , though vnapt to teach , and of a prophane life , is not as well a true , though a bad Minister : as a Christian so called , being ignorant , and of a lewd conversation , a a true , though a bad Christian ? There is one and the same reason of both : though Mr B : have more reason for to plead the one then the other , considering his own standing . If he should plead for the ignorant , and prophane Ministers , he should deprive himself of all arguments for the justification of the preaching , & more conscionable sort : for he rayseth them all , as the reader may see in both his books , from their gifts , and aptnes to teach , from their holy graces , their painfull and zealous preaching , their suppressing of Popery , and conversion of soules , with other the like effects of the truthes of the gospel published , and taught by them : which things since he dares not affirm of the scandalous , & vnpreaching Preists , he cunningly passeth them by as some small moat faln into the Church , by the covetousnes of † † 2 Book p. ●90 . 296. Much-wormly patrons , but contrary to the true meaning of the lawes : and without the least default of the Bishops , or Archbishops : as though the covetous Patrons could present them , except the vngodly Bishops had first ordeyned them . If he had undertaken the justification ( but as true , though not as good ) both of the vnpreaching , and preaching Ministers , he must have sought , and produced such Arguments as would haue agreed to both ; but finding himself able to make no shew at all for the ignorant , idle , and scandalous sort , having no colours to paynt , no morter to dawb over those filthy stones , no not to any shew , he smothers all them , though far the greater both in number , and authority , and in deed the almost onely true formall ministers ( according to the Church canon , and constitution ) and presents to the reader a few dispersed , disgraced , tolerated , and tolerating persons , and vndertakes their defence : manifesting himself a right naturall “ “ Rev. 1● 11. merchant of that great whore , in shewing some handfull of tolerable wares , thereby to deceive the simple buyer with the whole peice , or heap of rotten stuffe , which goes with them . Now on the contrary if Mr B. should not haue defended men of lewd conversation , as true visible matter of the Church and members of Christs body , he could not haue justifyed with any colour , the Nationall , Provinciall , Diocesan , and Parish Churches , or any one of them , as true ; since they were all at the first collected , and do still consist , for the greatest part , of such people , and so disposed . He therefore takes liberty vnto himself to make such defence , and for so much of his Church , and Ministery , as will serve his turn amongst the deceived multitude , and of no more .

But the mayn point in this place , & about this matter in hand , to be considered of , is , whether ability to preach be a qualification , and so preaching a work , necessarily required in the ministery of Engl: according to the true meaning of the lawes ecclesiasticall , & civil , and the book of ordination . This Mr B. takes for graunted affirmatively , and vpon it as a mayn ground builds his whole treatise about this matter : but I on the contrary do affirm , that this is ( & so is known to be to all that mind it , with wisdom , & good conscience ) cleane otherwise : and that neyther this ability , nor practise of preaching is of necessity required to the true , and naturall constitution of the English ministery , in the meaning of the lawes established in that case .

And for the confirmation of that I affirm against this mans presumptuous asseveration , these proofs suffice .

First , the books of Homilies published , and confirmed by law , I. to be read of such ministers as cannot preach , do evidently declare , that ability to preach , is not necessarily required of all , in the true meaning of the law .

2. By the statute law of the land , and in particular by one statute II. enacted for the prevention of vnworthy ministers ( though wanting the book , I cannot set down the title , tyme , or order of it ) he that is eyther a Bachilour of arts in one of the Universities ; or can give an account of his faith in latin : or hath been brought vp in a Bishops house ; ( though he haue been his porter , or horsekeeper ) or hath a gift in preaching , is capable of orders , and may be by the Bishop ordeyned a minister : so that by the expresse letter , and playn meaning of the law aptnes , and ability to teach is not necessarily required in the English ministery . If he haue any one of the three former qualifications , the law approves of him ; and being ordeyned , the Patron may present him to any congregation in the land , whom the Bishop also must institute , the Archdeacon induct , and the people receive ; and may be therevnto compelled , whither they will , or no.

Adde vnto these , that your canons , and constitutions , framed III. by the convocation house , and confirmed by the Kings royall assent , & so being the lawes ecclesiasticall of your Church , & by your doctrine Mr B. the Act of all the Church , though the inferiours come not pag. 144. to consent , do not onely approve an vnpreaching Ministery , but also lay deep curses , and Anathemaes vpon all that deny eyther the truth or lawfulnes of it . To this also I might annex that it is a very common doctrine with your Prelates , and their Chaplins , and faction , that † † Mr Col 〈…〉 . preaching is no necessary annexum , or appurtenance vnto Orders , which they also offer to defend against all gainsayers .

But it seems you haue speciall reference to the book of ordination : let vs therefore see what it makes for you , or your purpose . That you build vpon , I know , i● these words of the Bishop , when he orders his Preist ; and delivers him the Bible in his hand . Take thou authority to preach the word of God , and to minister the holy sacraments in this congregation , where thou shalt be so appointed . The words I hear , and acknowledge , but the true meaning of the book I deny it to be , that every Minister should be able to preach . It may as wel be sayd , it is the meaning of the book , that that every Preist should be ordeyned in the particular congregation , where he is to minister , bycause of the latter words in this congregation , where thou shalt be so appoynted : and that he is to minister the discipline of Christ , as well as the doctrine and sacraments , bycause such words passe betwixt him , and the Bishop in another place of the same book . It is not the least delusion of Sathan , or mistery , that such formes of good wordes are reteyned both in the Romish , & English Church , without any truth eyther of purpose or practise in those which vse them : for by them the eyes of the simple are easily bleared by such deceivable merchants , as right now I spake of : though it be not without a speciall providence of God , that these , & the like forms of words should be vsed , for the more full conviction , and condemnation of them that chuse to be deceived , as I have formerly noted in this book . pag. 244.

To conclude this poynt . The reading of the service book , in form , and maner , the celebrating of mariage , churching of women , burying of the dead , conformity , and subscription , are more essentiall to your ministery , and more necessarily requyred by the lawes of your Church both civil and ecclesiasticall , then preaching of the gospel is . The wearing of the surplice , and signing with the crosse in baptism are of absolute necessity , without partial dispensation , yea I may ad violation of oath by the Bishops : whereas preaching of the word is no such necessary , or essentiall duety , but a work casuall , accessory , and supererrogatory , which may be done or vndone , as the minister is able , or willing , without any such absolute necessity , as is here pretended . Herevpon then it followeth , that since the preaching of the gospel is no necessary part , or property of the office of ministery , in the Church of England , that that ministery cannot be of Christ : as also that the conscionable and effectual preaching of some men is no iustification at all of the office , which may , and doth consist essentially without it , and to which it is but casual , & accidentall ; but a commendation of the persons , which , besydes the natural , and necessary parts of their office , do so practise and preach . And this consideration alone might suffice for answer vnto all Mr B. proofs for the legitimating of the ministery in the Church of England : yet will I for the further discovering of them ( considering the confidence wherwith he propounds them ) descend to the particulars .

In his former book he layes down , and proves by the scriptures these three sound , and mayn grounds touching the ministery . pag. 131. 1. that the Lord onely ordeyns offices in his Church . 2. that he distinguisheth them one from another , that one may not intrude into an others office . 3. that he onely prescribes the dutyes to be done in every distinct office , and so in the fourth place he comes to the qualification and gifting of men for their functions , and so proceeds to other particulars . But observe his dealings : when he comes to apply , and compare the ministery of England to , and with these golden rules , and by them generally and truely propounded , to iustify it in the particulars , he passeth them all by in silence , as if he had vtterly forgotten them , and speaks not one word , eyther of the offices themselves , or of the distinction of them one from another , or the duties to be done in pag. 141. them ; but comes in the very first place to the guifts , and graces of the persons . And in so doing ( like the vnrighteous steward ) he doth wisely , though nothing lesse then faythfully . He knowes wel , that he cannot fynd in the scriptures the least colour for the offices of Archbishops , Bishops , Suffragans , Deanes , Arch-deacons , halfe Preists , or Engl: Deacons : nor that the dutyes of celebrating marriage , purifying women , burying the dead , reading the service book in manner , and form , are layd vpon the ministers of the gospel , as dutyes to be done in their offices : nor that the Provinciall , and Diocesan officers may intrude into their office , which are set over particular congregations , and deprive them of the power of government ; nor the Deacons to administer the sacraments : nor that any of them may intrude into the office of the civil Magistrate ( as they all do lesse or more ) in medling with matters of mariage , divorce , testaments , or with iniuryes , as they respect the body , or outward man , according to your , and other m●ns exposition of Math. 18. making ministers Magistrates , and E●ders in the Church , Elders in the gates . These things he knew , and therefore comming to speak of the ministery in England , and to apply these general rules to their particular estate , he not so much as once mentions eyther the diversity of offices in the Church ; or their distinction one from another : or the several dutyes to be done in them , least in naming them , he should ( as it could not have been otherwise ) have condemned that thing , which he would so gladly iustify . And this I desire the Reader to note not onely against him , but specially against the Ministery he pleads for .

His Arguments to prove the Ministers of England : true Ministers Mr B. of Christ , follow in order .

The first is because they are not Ministers of Antichrist : and that I. he would prove by 4. Reasons . 1. by their doctrine , and oath against him . 2. because they shew no obedience vnto him . 3. because Antichrist himself disclaimeth them , as no Ministers , & condemneth them , as haeretiques 4. because Antichrists Ministers are sacrificing and m●ssing Preists , which they are not . Answ.

Here Mr B. ( had he done faithfully ) should have cleared our Arguments , by which in sundry treatises published for that purpose , we have proved them in respect of their offices , entrances , & administrations , the Ministers of antichrist : but thinking it easyer to strike , then to fence , he passeth by what we have written against them , & layes down certeyn colourable reasons for them : which I have summarily set down in order : and vnto which I return this answer .

First and generally , that there is one common errour in all his Arguments : namely , that there is no Antichrist , but that great Antichrist the Pope : as though there were no more Divils but Beelzebub , because he is the cheif of the Divils . I would know of this man , what he thinks of the clergy in King Hen. 8 dayes , that took the oath of supremacy , and taught against the Pope , opposing him , & being opposed by him : or what he thinks of the Lutheran Ministers , that disclaym the Antichrist of Rome as haereticall , and are disclaymed by him , & yet do abhor from the reformed Churches , and from al communion with them , for the mayn truthes they hold , touching the sacrament , and predestination . The thing then is , that there are degrees of Antichristianism , & orders of Antichrists , that is of such as are adversaries vnto Christ . In Pauls time that “ “ 2 Thes. 2. 3. 4. man of sin , & adversary was got into the temple of God : and in Iohns time † † 1 Ioh. 2. 18. & 4 3. many Antichrists were come into the world : and yet there was then neyther Pope , nor masse preist ; no nor Diocesan or Provinciall Prelate neyther . There was in deed * * 3 Ioh. 9. 10. Diotrephes , who sought for praeheminence , & to rob the Church of † the power of Christ , and so 1 Cor. ● . 4. was an Antichrist , as there were many other impugning Christ the Lord otherwise : but the great Antichrist of Rome was by many degrees , and long continuance to be advanced to his throne . And as there were lesser Antichrists before him , by which he entred : so are there also after him ; and those left behind him in the Church of Engl: out of which he is driven . And those are the Lord Arch bishops , and Lordbishops , with their orders , and administrations : vnto whom whilst the inferiour ministers do swear canonicall obedience , they do by oath promise obedience vnto Antichrist , and receive his mark : and so ministring , are the marked servants of Antichrist , whom they obey : whom they are also by doctrine to defend , except their othes , and words disagreed . From whom if any of them do withdraw this their bounden , and sworn obedience , by denying subscription vnto his orders , or conformity vnto his ceremonies , them he silences , suspends , and deprives as schismaticall ( if not hereticall ) , and vtterly vnworthy of their , and their Churches service . And these things the reader may apply to Mr B. 3. first severall Reasons .

Now to your fourth , and last Argument , viz: that you are no masse-preists , my answer is , first that you haue the same office with masse preists though reformed of that massing , and some other impietyes : and this both the practise of your Church , and your doctrine ( pleading for succession , and ordination from Rome , & Romish Bishops , do necessarily confirm . All the massepreists ordeyned in Queen Maries dayes for that end , were vpon their conformity to the orders then , continued Ministers in their severall congregations , in Queen Elizabeths dayes , by vertue of their former ordination . And so are such masse-preists at this day ( though ordeyned at Rome ) received and continued amongst you , vpon the aforenamed conditions . Now it is your own constant affirmation every where , that ordination makes the minister . Wherevpon it followes , that no new ordination , no new minister , but the old massepreist reformed of such impieties , wherein Rome exceeds England . 2. it is your doctrine in your first book , that the ministery makes the Church , & gives denomination vnto it : & in your 2. book , that the Church of Rome is a true Church : wherevpon it followeth necessarily , that the ministery in the Church of Rome is a true Ministery : except a false ministery can make a false Church . And if any order of ministery be , it is that of the parish preists , for they are the likest the Pastours in their severall charges . Whence I do also conclude , that since the Romish preists office is a true office though vnder corruptions , as it was true Iob overshadowed with byles , eyther the English preists must haue the same office with them , ( though with the byles cured ) or els they are not the true ministers of Christ . And for the name preist , at which ( you say ) we catch , you do idly draw it from the Greeks , since it is most evident , that with the office , the name was tanslated vnto you from the Latine , and Romish Church : their sacerdos being your Priest in your books of ordination , and common prayer , which you haue from them : otherwise why do you not turn the Greek words praesbyter , & proistamenos , preists in your English Bibles , which are translated from the originalls .

The sum of the 2. Arg. is that the Ministers of the Church of Engl: II. are Pastours , and Teachers , that is good sheepheards , such as do keep , Mr B. feed , and govern the flock ; and as are qualified with gifts , and vnderstanding , and instruct them that are vnlearned .

If in stead of Pastours , and Teachers , you had put Parsons , & Answ. Vicars , your writtes of presentation , and institution would haue proved it . But that you are Pastours , and Teachers , such as Paul speaks of Ephe. 4. by holy writ you can never manifest . 2. though the things were true you speak both for your power , and practise , yet except you administred those things by a lawfull calling , in a lawfull office , and to a lawfull assembly , you were not true Pastors , and Teachers . But it is not true you say of your selves that you play the good sheepheards in feeding , that is in providing pasture for the sheep , and in governing , & ordering them to , & fro , & at it . Your Prelates govern or rather reign , but teach not : your parish Preists some of them that can , & list , teach so much as they dare for feare of their imperious Lords , but govern not .

Your 3. Arg: for your Ministers is , that they are called & sent of III. God , & of his Ch: , & therefore are true ministers . Their calling , & sending Mr B. of God you make his preparing of them with gifts , & graces to be able to exequute in some measure the office , wherevnto he doth appoint them . But herein you are greatly mistaken : the Lords inabling men Answ. with gifts is one thing , and his calling them to vse them in such , and such an order , is another thing : and though the Lord calls none , but he inables them , yet he inables many , he never calls . Many counsellers , judges , lawyers , and others in the land , are very able to discharge the office of ministery , but are not called therevnto of God ; if they be , it is their sin not to obey the heavenly calling , and to become ministers . And as a man may be qualified with gifts for the ministery , and yet not called of God to vse them , ( so being qualified accordingly ) he may be a true Minister of the Church , though he be never called of God at all , as we now speak : So was Iudas , who was never inwardly called of God , that is , perswaded by the work of Gods spirit in his heart , in the zeal of Gods glory and love of the salvation of men , to take vpon him the office of an Apostle . And what true calling of God the Ministers in the Church of England haue to take vpon them their offices , & charges , as they do , appeares in their easy forsaking them vpon a litle persecution , yea before it come near them . Of which more hereafter .

Now for the calling of the Ministers by the Church , albeit we put of the more full handling of it to the 4. Arg. yet something must be sayd for the present .

And first , though it were true you say , that the Church of England were the true Church of Christ , yet were not your Ministers called , and sent by the Church , except a Lordly Prelate be the Ch: of England , for by such a one is every Minister amongst you , called , and made . 2. I deny here , ( as alwayes ) your nationall Ch: to be the true visible Church of Christ : and that which in this case , you say , is largely proved , I hope is sufficiently refuted .

But here a demand you make in your answer to Mr Sm: must be satisfied , namely , why true ministers may not arise as well out of a false pag. 313. Church , as a false ministery out of a true Ch: ? The latter I agree vnto : for the Church may erre , and through errour or otherwise , chuse a man uncapable of the Ministery by the word of God . Whereupon it ▪ followes , that the Minister makes not the Church ( as you erroneously affirm ) for then the Church should in the very instant become a false Church when she sets vp a false Minister . But your inference I deny . For first evil may arise from good , though by accident , without any externall cause comming between : as sin did from the angels in heaven , and our first parents in paradise : but so cannot good from evil . 2. the officers are 1. of , 2 by , 3. in , and 4 for the Church . 1. of it , as members of the body , and so must be members of a true Church , before they can be true officers . 2. by it , in respect of their calling , as Gal. 1. 1. and therefore except they can eyther be true officers by a false calling , or that a false Church can give a true calling , they cannot be true in it . 3. in it , as the accidents , or adjuncts in the subject , without which being true , they can have no more true existence , then reason can have , without a reasonable soul , or subject . 4. for it , and therefore since the Lord hath appointed no ministery for a false Church , there can by the word of God be no true ministery in it : and this I wish them to consider , which still adhere to the Church of England ( though they wholy dislike the constitution ) for the ministery in it .

Now where you adde , that Luther and other worthy Ministers of Christ were raysed vp out of the Romish Church , you wrong him & them , and the truth in them , whilst you would gratifie Rome , and England . Luthers Ministery from Rome was his Fryardome : and is a Fryar a true minister of Christ by his office , or of Artichrist whither ? Besides , look what ministery the Church of Rome gave him , it took from him : and lastly if he had been a true officer or minister of the Church of Rome , it had been sinne in him to have left his charge . Touching the baptism received in the Romish Church I have formerly spoken ; and of our reteyning it , but not our Ministery , I shall speak hereafter .

That , which is worthy consideration in the fourth Argument IIII. is , the enterance into the ministery : in the substance of which he tells vs , Mr B. there is nothing wanting by their lawes . For touching the ability , and desyre to teach , and other graces he speaks of , they no more make a minister , then † † Exod. 18. 21. courage , the feare of God , true dealing , and the hatred of of covetousnes make every man a Magistrate , that is so indowed . Now this entrance he layes down in 4. particulars : 1. presentation . 2. election , 3. probation , & 4. ordination with imposition of hands . But these in such confusion , and with so many contradictions , as do evidently shew what monsters an ill cause , & a vayn spirit meeting together , will gender , and bring forth . First , in his former book pag. 136. he places the whole calling , ( or as he speakes ) the making of a Minister in ordination : and comprehends vnder it as the 3. parts of it . 1. examination : 2. election : 3. admission , with imposition of hands . In his second book he makes ordination but the fourth , and last part of his calling , pag. 295. as in deed it is , and the same with admission : The reason why he would thus advance ordination is , bycause that in Engl: is all in all , being done by a Bishop , yea though it be by the Bishop of Rome . And so they call their book they make ministers by , the book of ordination not the book of election , or choise , or calling of Ministers . The Bishops Lordship swallowes vp the peoples liberty : and if he but lay his hands vpon a man , & bid him Receive the H. Ghost , he is a minister of the Church sufficiently ordered .

2. Where in his former book he puts examination , or probation before election : in his ● . he would haue election first , and the probation , or tryal of the partyes gifts , and graces to come afterwards : mis-interpreting that , which is written 1 Tim. 3. 10. of probation to be made before election . And the Reason of this I conceive to be , bycause the Ministers in England are not onely elected but fully made , before any such tryall be taken of them . But I come to the particulars : and first to that which he calls presentation : for which he quotes Act. 1. 23 and 6. 6. In which scriptures , especially in the latter of them , he is much mistaken : the presentation there spoken of not being before , but after election . The cause , I suppose , of this his confused wryting , is the confused practise in his Church , wher the Patrone presenteth his clerk both after his chusing , and ordeyning . But for the thing it self , ( vnderstanding by presentation the nomination of the person to be chosen , or considered of for choyce ) as the officers are in , all other things to goe before the people , so in this ordinarily : provided alwayes the brethrens liberty be not infringed , but that they may present , or nominate others , if any amongst themselves seeme more fit .

Now for the examination , and tryall of the partyes gifts , and graces , as we all know what it is in the Church of England where if a man have the gift of subscription , conformity , & canonical obedience , though other gift , or grace he have none , he is a tryed minister , and so reputed : which if he want , be his other gifts , and graces never so eminent , he is neyther to enter into , nor being entred , to continue in his Ministery : so do the things , which you write in your † † pag. 137. 138. former book , touching this tryall , & examination of men , before they be chosen into the Ministery , notably condemn both the ministery of your Church , which you labour to iustify , and on the contrary iustify sundry practises amongst vs , which els where you condemn for notable errours . The particulars are these . 1. First , that the gifts of him that is to be chosen , must be examined according to those things , which the place wherein he must be , requireth , and God hath commaunded . 2. that the place or office of the Ministery consisteth principally in the preaching of the word , administration of the sacraments , and prayer . 3. that the first , namely the preaching of the word , is to be preferred in the first place , as being first imposed , Math. 10. 28. 29. and most necessary both to beget , and preserve a people . Iam. 1. 18. Prov. ●9 . 15. 4. that the knowledge ; zeale , and vtterance of of ●●● party to be elected must be examined . Whereupon these things follow . First , that , by your own graunt , men out of office may preach , administer the sacraments , and prayer : and so exercise their gifts , and graces of knowledge , zeal , & vtterance . But as there is some difference , in the respect in hand , between the sacraments on the one side , and the word , and prayer on the other : bycause there is no speciall gift required for the administration of them , as there is for the latter : so is the exercise of prophesying , and prayer out of office ( so much impugned by you ) vndenyably iustified by this your own position . And as it is a very presumptuous evill to call any man into the office of a teaching Elder , whose gift in teaching hath not been sufficiently tryed out of office , so is it no lesse presumption in a Church to set a man over herself for government , of whose both ability , & faithfulnes in the reproving , & censuring of sinns , and in other publick affaires of the Church , she hath not taken good tryall .

2. If this be true , that the office of the Ministery consist principally in the preaching of the word , and administration of the sacraments , & prayer , how is that true , for which you have so much contended in the former part of your book ▪ that the authority to censure offenders , is in the cheif officers , and governers of the Church , as their speciall prerogative ? pag. 94. Can a lesse principall work be the peculiar priveledge of a more principall office ? It is against the light of nature , and common reason .

More particularly : this observation by you truely made , with that also which followeth , namely , that the preaching of the word is to be praeferred in the first place , overthrowes the order both of the Prelacy and Preisthood of your Church . For if the preaching of the gospel be the principall work of the Ministery , and to be preferred in the first place ▪ then are not your Provinciall and Diocesan Bishops , of God , which have obteyned the principall order , and office in your Church for a lesse principall work , namely government ; and are preferred to the highest , & first place , not for the teaching of their Dioseces , & Provinces , which were impossible , though they desired it , but for ruling of them . You say they are the successors of the Apostles : but the cheif work of the † † Mat. 28. 19. 20. A●t 5. 42. & 6. 4. Rom. 1. 15. 16. 1 Cor. 1. 17. Apostles Ministery was the preaching of the gospel , not ruling ( much lesse Lording ) wherein your Bishops office standeth . The order , which the Apostle Paul hath left , is , that those * * 1 Tim. 5. 17. Elders , which labour in the word , and doctrine , should have speciall honour , and aboue them , which are imployed in ruling : but this order Antichrist hath subverted , as being a course not onely too base , and laborious , but even impossible , for him to honour his Ministers by , as he desired , and hath effected ; & hath procured not double , & treble , but an hundred fold greater honour to be ascribed to ruling , and government , then to preaching . And this is not the least part of that confusion wherein you stand , and against which wee testify . 2. If the office of Ministery consist principally in preaching , how can your office of Ministery or order of Preisthood , be of Christ , which consists not at all in preaching , as I haue shewed , but may stand without it , by the Canons & Lawes of your Church : not requiring it necessarily as any essentiall property for the being , but onely admitting of it , as a convenient ornament for the well-being : commending in deed the person that vseth it , but no wayes justifying the office , which requireth it not . Yea most evident it is , that the Ministery of the Church of England , considering it not onely in the state , & cariage of things , but specially in the civil , and ecclesiasticall lawes wherein it is founded , consists more principally in the wearing of a surplice , then in the preaching of the gospel . To conclude this point , as the examination of such with you , as are to be ordeyned , by the Bishop , and his Chaplayn , is no triall of their gifts of knowledge , zeal , or vtterance , or that they are † † 1 Tim. ● 2. apt to teach , but a devise like the poseing of schoolboyes , without eyther warrant fro the scriptures , or good to the Church : so the onely examination which the word of God approves of , is that just , and experimentall knowledge which the Church , by wise observation , is to take of the personall gifts , and graces of such men , as the Lord rayseth vp amongst them , manifesting themselves in the publick exercises of the Church in their places , as there is occasion ; though you Mr Bern. be bold to abuse 1 Tim. 3. 7. to the justification of your letters testimoniall vnto the Bishop , which any vngodly person may procure from other persons as ill as himself , and thereby may find acceptance with some Bishop or other , as evill as eyther of both . The Apostle “ “ Act. 1. ●● 21. Peter directing the disciples , or Church about the choice , or nomination of one to be chosen into the room of Iudas , tels them they must think of such a man , as had companyed with them all the tyme , that the Lord Iesus was conversan● among them .

And the same Apostle , together with the rest , by the same spirit directs the Ch: afterward to ‘† ‘† Act. 6. 2. 3. chuse from among themselves seven men iustly qualified , to take vpon them the administration of the Church treasury . And vpon the same ground it was that the Apostles Paul & Barnabas did not streightway vpon the gathering of the Churches of the Gentiles * * Act. 14 : 23. ordeyn them officers , but a good space after , even when the people had made good proof and tryall of the gifts , and faithfulnes of such men as by their free choice , and election , the Apostles ordeyned over them . And whom doth it concern so nearely to make proof , or to take observation of them that are to be called into office , as them that are to call , or chuse them , and to commit their soules vnto them ? Of which election it followeth we consider in the next place .

And the first thing I purpose about it , is to sum vp , and set together a few of Mr B. sayings , which like so many waves driven by contrary winds , do dash themselves asunder one against another .

First then he affirmeth , ‘† ‘† former book . pag. 133. and 138. that the Church i● t● separate , and c●●se 〈…〉 amongst others , for Ministers , such as are found fit : & in so saying , what doth he but graunt , that the Church is before the Ministers ? They that chuse must needs be before the that are chos●n● ▪ How them do the Ministers make the Church ? 2. In his † † pag. 325. 2. book he reproacheth Mr Smyth , as an impudent ga●nsayer of the t●●t , for saying that the Church did elect Mathias , Act. 1. where the Lord did make the ch●ise : and yet in the same book , pag. 295. 296. he graunts , that such examples of practise were then in vse for the peoples chusing Ministers ; and quotes this very scripture , with some others for that purpose . 3. he affirmeth in his † † pag. 138. former book that the guides , and governours of the Ch: were to chuse the Officers , & alledgeth to that end Act. 14. 23. Neyther remembring what he had formerly written in the same book , namely , that * * pag. 97. the rest of the congregation were to chuse the principall to be their mouth , and to stand for the whole Church : nor yet caring what he was to write in his . “ “ pag. 295. 2. book , to wit that the people were to chuse their ministers , for which he also bringeth the same scripture , Act. 14. 23. If this man had been in Iohn Baptists place , the Iewes might well haue answered Christ , that they Luk. 7. 24. had gone out to see a reed shaken with the wind .

But to leave his contradictions of himself , & to come to his oppositions against the truth .

And first , it is erronious●y written by him , and the scriptures Act. 13. 1. 2. & 14. 23. sinfully perverted to the justification of his errour , that † † Separat . schism . pag. 138. by the Church which , is to chose officers ●s meant the guids , and governours thereof . That which I haue formerly noted out of both his books , espetially his quoting the latter of these scriptures for the peoples liberty in chusing their ministers , doth give great Mr B. cause of suspition , that in this case he thus writes for his purpose , against Answ. his conscience , and is in deed condemned of himself . And for the other place , which is Act. 13. 1. 2. I may as justly ( yea & much more ) reprove Mr B. for bringing it for the governours chusing of Paul , and Barnabas , as he Mr Smyth for bringing Act. 1. for the peoples chusing of Mathias .

For , first Barnabas & Saul were Apostles , as well as Mathias : and therefore not to be called to their office by man but by God , Gal: 1. 1. and so were of * * Act. 13 1 2. & 1. 24. 26. the Holy Ghost as immediately separated by name , as was Mathias by lot .

2. Mathias was at that time first called to the office of Apostleship , which before he had not : but Paul , and Barnabas were * * Act. 9. 1 Cor. 9. 1. 2. 6. Apostles long before , and at that tyme designed onely to a speciall work , but not called to any office .

3. It appeareth that Paul , and Barnabas were not separated , & sent by the governours onely , but by the Church with them , wherin they ministred , and which joyned with them in prayer , and fasting , and so consequently in dismissing , or letting them go , ver. 2. 3. though most like the ceremony of imposition of hands was performed onely by the Teachers , and Prophets , but with the foregoing consent of the Church , according to the expresse direction of the holy Ghost . And that , not the governours severally , but the Church with them , separated and sent them , vnder the Lords expresse nomination , appears evidently , Act. 14. 27. where vpon their return ▪ they made relation , not to the officers , but to the Church gathered together for that purpose , what things the Lord had wrought by them , that so not onely the grace of God towards the Gentiles might be taken knowledge of , and magnified , but also that their service , & ministration might be approved to the Church , which sent them .

And thus all may see how injurious this man is to the right , and liberty of the brethren , as formerly in the censures , so here in the choise of officers : making the governours alone the Church both in the one , and the other . And being both of them Church matters , and parts of the publique administration of Christs kingdom , the same scriptures which demonstrate the peoples interest in the one , do conclude the same in the other .

In the beginning , the Lord Iesus , and his Apostles by his spirit , appointed none other true visible Churches but particular congregations of faythfull people ; ( for of the vanity of representative Churches in the new testament I have formerly spoken ) but as † † 1 Cor. 8. ● knowledge puffeth vp ▪ so within a few ages , the officers and governours of the Church ( being men of knowledge ) began to swell with that poysoned humour of pride , & ambition , wherewith Antichrist had infected them , especially when they were once setled in peace , and plenty ; and taking withall , partly advantage , by the peoples negligence in themselves , and superstitious admiration of their guides ; and partly occasion by the abuse of their liberty ) have been bold to engrosse the liberties of the whole Church into their own hands , and with them , the name . They alone must haue the keyes of the kingdome of heaven hanging at their girdell , for the opening , & shutting of heaven gates : which is all one as if in playn termes they should affirm , that to them alone were committed the oracles of God , the gospel of salvation , see Rom. 3. 2. Iude , 3. They alone must * * 1 Cor. 14 3. speak in the Church to adif●ing , exhortation , and comfort : and so all the brethren must be silenced in the exercise of prophecying . To them alone must the complaints of sinns be brought , and they alone must be heard in the reforming of them : and thus must the bottomles gulf of the governours authority swallow vp the brethrens liberty in the reproving , and censuring of offenders . They alone are to separate , and chuse the ministers : and of this branch of the power of Christ amongst the rest , must the body of the Church be stript . And as there is no end of errours , where they once begin , especially of those , which tend to the advancement of the man of sin in his Ministers above all that is called God , so hath this iniquity prevayled yet further , even to the bereaving of the people of the cup in the Lords supper , and of the very scriptures in their mothers tongue : the Preists alone communicating in both parts of the supper ; and inclosing the scriptures themselves with in the Romish , or Latine language , which they alone , to speak of ▪ vnderstood . Yea , to conclude , so effectuall hath the delusion of Satan been this way , that it hath been vniversally taught , and beleeved , that an implicite faith was sufficient in the lay people , & that no more was required of them then to beleeve , as the Church ( that is , the ( guides , and governours of the Church ) beleeved , though they were vtterly ignorant what their fayth was . And what lesse in effect doth M. B. affirm in his “ “ pag. 145. 2. book , where he writes , that , if the cheif do voluniarily receive , professe , & proclaym a faith , or religion , it is to be accounted the act of all , though the inferiours come not to consent ? he might as well haue added , though they be ignorant of it , or what it meanes . Yea doth not this conclusion follow vpon the former ground , that the officers are the Church . Mat. 18. for the reproving & censuring of offenders , and for the binding , & loosing of sinns ? If the Officers be the Church for one religious , or spirituall determination , why not for an other ? And if the censures agreed vpon and ministred by the Officers , be by way of representation , the censures of the Church , without the actuall consent of the people ; why is not the faith agreed vpon , and published by the officers the fayth of the Church , by way of representation , before the peoples distinct knowledge of it , or actuall consent vnto it ? Put the case the officers change their auncient fayth in some mayn point , wherein the body of the Church still abideth , and so differeth from them ; and that they take occasion to excommunicate some brother , or brethr●n , that most opposes them : if this excommunication of the officers be the excommunication of the Church representatively , without the peoples consent ; then is this new faith also of the officers , for which this excommunication is practised , the faith of the people notwithstanding their not onely not consenting vnto , but their vtter dissenting from the same .

Now as the governours did thus engrosse the power , and libertyes of the Church , so no marvayl , though with them , they assumed the name . Hence is it that they alone are called the Church , the Clergy , the spiritually : the prophane idiotish laity are excluded both from the title , and thing . Symon the Sadler , To●●k●● the Taylour , Belly pag. 197. the Bellowes-maker must be no Church men , nor meddle with Ch: matters . As though it were eyther not true , or to no purpose , which is written , that Christ himself was † † Mar. 6. 3. a Carpenter * * Act. 18. 3. " Math. 4. 18. 21. Paul a ●en●maker , " Peter , Andrew , Iames , & Iohn Fishermen .

One onely thing more I will adde , & so conclude this point ; which is , that the Preists were not more eager at the first vpon the people , till they had swallowed vp their liberty , then they were afterwards one vpon an other , till one had gotten all ; from whom , as from the Catholick visible head , all power should issue , and be derived to the severall partes of the body . And how clean a way Mr Bern. and others ( which knowing better have the more sin ) make to this mischeif , in pleading that Paul alone , 1 Cor. 5. & the severall Angels alone in the severall Churches Rev. 2. & 3. were to reform , and censure abuses , let the wise reader judge .

The 2. allegation made by Mr B. against which I except , is , that the Ministers with them have all things in substance required by the word Mr B. of God for their making , as presentation , election , examination , ordination , with imposition of hands ; and that the exceptions wee take are but about circumstances onely , and same manner of doing : which do not make a nullity , or falsity of the deed done .

As we do except against the very office it self , and against the Answ. mayn , and most principall works of it , by law required , as works of will-worship , and † † Col. 2. 23. voluntary religion , so do our exceptions against the very calling , and enterance of your Ministers evince them sufficiently not to be the true Ministers of Christ . “ “ Heb. 5. 4. 5. No man takes this honour vnto himself , but he that is called of God , as Aaron . No , Christ himself took not this honour to be made the high Pr●●st , but he that sayd vnto him , thou art my sonne , this day begate I thee , gave it him . And if Christ the Lord of his Church did not take vpon him the solemn administration of his office , till by the Father he was called thereunto from heaven , it is great presumption for any man ( and he a bold vsurper , that so practiseth ) to take vpon him any office in the Church , not being chosen and called thereunto by them , which under the Lord , haue received this Charter , thus to call Ministers , which are onely his Church , and people . And by this doctrine of Mr Bern : that faylings in circumstances , and manner of doing , make not a nullity , or falsity of the deed , it should follow , that if a company of Papists , Arians , Anabaptists , or of any other Haeretiques , or idolaters should chose , and call a minister , though it were a child , an idiote , yea a woman , & that after the most prophane , and superstitious manner that could be , yet this made no nullity , or falsity of the action , for all were but errours in circumstances , and manners of doing . Yea by this trifling , murther , adultery , and all the mischeifs in the world might be defended . If a private person should take upon him without lawfull authority to be a judge , and should condemn the inocent , and justify the guilty person , all the evill were but in the circumstances of persons judging , and judged . If a man gaue his body to the wife of another man , the evill were but circumstantiall , he might haue done it to another person , namely his own or proper wife . What confusion would these excuses of circumstances onely , & manner of doing things , bring over all estates , if they were admitted of ? Of this mischeif I haue spoken , pag. 21. 22. 23. 37.

The 3. consideration in this matter is , about such devises , as Mr Bern. hath found for the shifting off such places , as prove that the people ought to choose their Ministers . The scriptures are Act. 1. and 6. & 14. 23. to which also might be added Numb. 8. 9. 10. Act. 11. 22. 1 Cor. 16. 3. 2 Cor. 8 19. with many others . His answer Mr B. is , first , that these places testify , that such examples of practise were then , but that there is no praecept for the perpetuity of it .

This is an vngodly evasion * * Mat. 15. 6. Hebr. 9. 15. 16. 17. making the commaundements of God of Answ: none authority by mens traditions : & tending to the abolishment of the testament of Christ , which he hath confirmed by his death : wherein he hath not onely by practise , but also by the doctrine † † Eph. 2. 20 21. of the Apostles , vpon which he hath founded the Church , or temple of God , for ever , established this ordinaunce , as a part of the new testament : and that not vpon some extraordinary , temporary , and changeable occasion , as some thing have been ordered , and decreed by the Apostles , Act. 15. 1. 2. 28. 29. but vpon ordinary , & constant grounds , and vpon reasons , and causes of perpetuall equity ; such as concern all Churches in all places to the worlds end : as shall appear hereafter .

When the Lord Iesus sent forth his Apostles to gather Churches , he gave them in charge “ “ Math. 28. 20. to teach them to obserue all things , whatsoever he had commaunded them . promising withall that in so doing he would be with them alway vntill the end of the world . And that , amongst other doctrines , they taught the people this , that they were to choose their officers , the scriptures cited do fully testify . See Act. 1. 15. 16. 16 — 23. & 6. 2. 3. 5 6. & 14. 23. Answerable vnto this is that which the Apostle Paul protesteth to the ‘* ‘* Act 20. 17. 20. 26. 27. Elders of Ephesus at Miletum that he was pure from the blood of all men , in that he had kept no thing back , but shewed them all the counsel of God : one part of which counsayl was , that the people were to chuse their Officers , which by Mr Bernards own graunt they observed . to which also adde , that the same Apostle writing vnto the Church of Corinth about a matter of “ “ 1. Cor. 14 40. order , avoweth † † v. 37. 38. the things which he writes , to be the commaundements of the Lord ; and chargeth all them as wilfully ignorant , which do not so acknowledge them . With what conscience then . or colour of reason ●an this man say , that this power , and right of the people to chuse their Ministers , was onely a matter of practise , but not of praecept ? & no immediate right from Christ , but a graunt vnto them from the Apostles , or vpon their exhortation for the tyme ?

It is true he sayth in the same place , 1. that the people did not elect , or chuse , but when the Apostles were amongst them ; & 2. that they pag. 296. did it vpon their exhortation . And for the first who denyes , but that where faithful , and godly officers are , the people are by their direction , & government according to the will of Christ , to vse their liberty in this , and all the other affaires of the Church ? So for the second , it was so the Apostles exhortation , as it was also a divine institution by the spirit of God , never reversed but by those * * Rev. 16. 13. 14. vnclean spirits of Divels , which like froggs came out of the mouth of the Dragon , and out of the mouth of the Beast , and out of the mouth of the false Prophet : part of the counsel of God , never altered , or departed from , but by them , “ “ Isa. 30. 1. which take counsayl , but not of God : and lastly , one of the commaundements of Christ , which the Apostles were bound both to teach , and exhort the people to observe , never disannulled , but by the counter-commaund , craft , and violence of Antichrist : who as one of your own Prelates hath truely observed , never ceased , till by cursing , and fighting he had gotten all into his own hands . The insinuation therefore which you make against vs in assuming this liberty vnto vs , as a right of our selves , is vnjust : considering we have it conveyed vnto vs from Christ in the writings of the Apostles , wherein they do as expresly teach it vs , and as effectually exhort vs vnto it , as if they were personally present with vs . And that which the people might then doe in their presence , vpon their speach , they may now do vpon their writings , in their absence , and in the absence of all other officers also , if the particular Churches be for the present vnfurnished of them .

Now where he further addeth , that the people then were very iudicious , and able to make a choise , whereas it is now far otherwise with many : it is of some consideration for the people , & Church of England , but of none at all for the people , & Church of God . If the people in the parish assemblies there should vsurp this power , it would be far otherwise with them indeed , for the most part , then with people iudicious , or able to make a choise . Can blind men judge of colours , ? or * * 1 Cor. 2. 14. naturall men of spirituall things ? If a man would prophesie vnto them of wine , and strong drink , he were a Prophet for such a people . It is certayn they would chuse Ministers like themselves , ignorant , & loose fellowes for the most part , & the saying of the Prophet would be verifyed , * * Hos. 4. ● . as is the people , so is the Preist . And yet worse then are made , and chosen by the Bishops , and Patrons generally , they could hardly find . But observe your self Mr B. when you plead for 2. Book 110 114. the ignorance , and prophanenes of your own people , you write that the Apostles received into the Churches persons very ignorant ▪ and of lewd conversation : Now when you come to plead against the liberty of the people of God , you make them in the Apostles tymes to have been very iudicious , & able to discern of things , far otherwise then the people now are .

Now for the exception it self , it is of no valew . But as the ordinances , and administration of the Iewish Church , remayned the same , and vnalterable , though the peoples knowledge were not alwayes the same but sometimes greater , sometimes lesse : so is it in the estate of the new testament with all them which deem that † † Heb. 3 3. Christ the Sonne is worthy of as much honour in his ordinances , as was Moses , a servant of the house , in his . And if this devise were admitted of , that the liberty of the people should eb , and flow , according to the measure of their knowledge , then should not all the brethren in the same Church haue the same Christian liberty in the choise of officers , censuring of offenders , and the like ordinances ; for all have not the same measure of knowledge , nay it may be scarce two of all ; so divers is the dispensation of grace to the severall members . Then should scarce two severall Churches in the world injoy the same Christian liberty , the one with the other ; no nor any one with it self , any long tyme , since one Church differeth from another , yea from it self at divers times , in the measure , & degree of knowledge , and other graces of God . Besides , if we should wey together in the ballances , the Churches of Christ now , and in the Apostles times , the Christian liberty of the people would rather sway the ballance this way , then the other way , and to the people now , then in the Apostles dayes .

For first there were present with the people in those first times , besides other extraordinary officers extraordinarily indowed , the Apostles themselves , those great Maister-buylders , which ( if any other in the world ) might lawfully haue deprived the people of their power in this & the like cases : which notwithstanding they did not , but on the contrary did faithfully inform , & direct them according to the commaundement of Christ , in the right , & lawful vse of the same . And yet notwithstanding the Bishops of the Romish , and English Church ( though not worthy so much as of the name of daubers in the Lords house , in comparison of those other Maister-buylders ) dare without fear , or shame , engrosse all into their owne hands ; and haue their proctours , this man and others , many a one , to plead for them in their vsurpation .

2. The Churches in the Apostles tyme were newly converted from Iudaism , and Paganism , and had still cleaving vnto them much ignorance in many great poynts . And in particular , the disciples , or Church at Ierusalem , after they were both possessed , and had vse of Act. & 1. 6. this power of chusing officers , were ignorant of no lesse a point then the calling of the Gentiles ; of which , or the like mayn ground Act. 10. 14 15 ▪ 3● . 35. with Ch. 11 2. 3. 4. 5. & ● . of religion , no true Church of Christ now is ignorant , as that Ch: then was . And thus it appeareth , that the choise of Officers by the people in the primitive Churches was not a matter casual or of the Apostles courtesy , but a commaundement of Christ , left penned by the H. Ghost , as is the rest of that story , and of those Acts of the Apostles , for our direction , and the direction of all the Churches of Christ to the worlds end .

One shift more Mr Bernard makes , from which he must be put , and that is , that the Patron chuseth for the people a fit man , whom the Mr B. Bishop finding fit by examination , ordeyneth , and that this is a lawfull calling . pag. 319.

To let passe , that the Patrons vsually choose not for the people , Answ. but for themselves , and their own profits , and pleasures , which though it be apparant to all men , is ( not without cause ) winked at by the Bishops , considering how , and by what meanes they procure their own choise , I answer first , that the patron doth not chuse for the people , that is , as the people did chuse in the Apostles tymes . For the people then made choise of such , as were before private persons , but by their election to be ordeyned into office : where the Patron chuseth a Clerk , who is in office already , and ordeyned by the Bishop before the Patron make choise of him . The Bishop doth at the first make him a Minister at large , and not of any particular Church , and so sends him , as it were , to graze vpon the Commons , till afterwards he be found by , or rather find , some Patron , which by his presentation makes a gap , and lets him into some vacant Vicarage , or Parsonage , there to minister accordingly . But admit in the 2. place , that the Patron stood in the room of the people to choose for them , I would demaund , who set him there ? or where the scriptures do eyther teach or approve of any such A●●urney-ships in the matters of religion , & of Gods worship , as you make by telling vs in one place that the officers do make profession of faith ; in another , that they censure offenders ; & here , that they chuse Ministers for the people . If som one man in a parish had ●nta●l●d to him and his heyres for ever , the power of appoynting housbands to all the women in the parrish , the bondage were intollerable , though in a matter of Civile nature : how much more intollerable then is the spirituall bondage of the parrish assemblyes vnder the imperious presentations of those Lord patrons , whose Clerks they must receive , and submit vnto , whither they wil or no ? Great is the sin of the people , which loose this † † Gal. 5. ● . liberty , greater of the Patrons , which engrosse it , but the greatest of all is that for the Ministers , which by their doctrine , & practise , confirm both the one and the other in their iniquity : all three conspiring together in this , that they alter the ordinances , and commaundements of Christ by his Apostles , and so both * * Deu. 4. ● . Rev. 22. 18 ▪ 19. diminish of his institution , & adde of ●heir owne devise .

Now as the forenamed scriptures ( like a gratious charter given to this spirituall corporation , the Church , by the King thereof , Iesus Christ ) do clearly plead the peoples liberty , and power of the choise of their Ministers , so will I adde vnto them certayn Reasons , to prove this order , and ordinance to be of morall , and perpetuall equity .

The first is bycause the bond between the Minister , and people I. is the most streyt , and near religious bond that may be , and therefore not to be entered but with mutuall consent , any more then the civill bond of mariage between the housband , and wife . II.

It makes much both for the provocation of the Ministery vnto Act. 20. 2● 29. Iob. 10. 9. 12. 13. Act. 6. 1 — 5. all diligence , and faithfulnes : and also for his comfort in all the tryals , and temptations which befall him in his Ministery , when he considereth how the people , vnto whom he ministreth , have committed that most rich treasure of their soules ( in the Lord ) yea I may say , of their very faith , & ioy , to be helped forward vnto salvation , 2 Cor. 1. 24 to his care , and charge , by their free , and voluntary choise of him .

It much furthers the love of the people to the person of their III. Minister , and so consequently , their obedience vnto his doctrine , and government , when he is such a one , as themselves in duety vnto God , and love of their own salvation , have made choise of : as on the contrary , it leaves them without excuse , if they eyther perfidiously forsake , or vnprofitably vse such a mans holy service , and ministration . IIII.

Lastly it is agreable to all equity , and reason , that all free persons , and estates should choose their own servants , and them vnto whom they give wages , and maintenance for their labour , and service . But so it is betwixt the people , and ministers : the people a free people , & the Church a free estate spirituall , vnder Christ the King ▪ the Ministers the Churches ( as Christs ) † † Rom. 15. 31. 2 Cor. 4. 5. & 1. Cor. 9. 14. servants : & so by the Churches provision ●o live , and of her , as “ “ 1 Tim. 5. 18. labourers to receive wages .

Thus much of the 4. Argument . The 5. followeth , the summe whereof is , that , bycause the Ministers of the English assemblies , teach true , and sound doctrine in the root , and fundamentall points of religion , they Mr. B. are therefore the true Ministers of Christ . And that sound doctrine is the triall of a true Minister , Mr B. would prove from these scriptures , Answ. 1 Tim. 4. 6. Ier. 23. 22.

Of the vnsound doctrine of your Church , and that more specially in the fundamentall points of religion , “ “ Mr Ioh. Answ. to Mr Iacob . pag. 46. 47. 48. &c. 157 ▪ 158. &c. others have spoken at large formerly , and something is by me hereafter to be spoken : for the present therefore this shall serve , that , since † † 1 Cor. 3. 11 Christ Iesus not onely as Preist , and Prophet , but as King , is the foundation of his Church : and that the visible Church is * * Mat. 13. 11. 19. 24. 31. 33. & 21. 5. 43. Act. 1 3. the kingdome of Christ ; the doctrines towching the subiects , government , officers , & lawes of the Church , can be no lesse then fundamentall doctrines of the same Church , or Kingdome . Which how vnsound they are with you , appears in your Canons ecclesiasticall composed for that purpose . Which if your ministers preach , they preach vnsound doctrine , and strike at a mayn pillar of religion , viz: the visible † † 1 Tim. 3. 14. Church of God , which is the pillar , and ground of truth , as the Apostle speaketh : if not , then are they schismatiques in , and from your Church , whose solemn doctrines they refuse to publish .

Now bycause Mr Bern. every where beares himself big vpon the sound doctrines taught by the ministers in England , and in this place brings in two scriptures to warrant their Ministery vpon this ground , let vs a litle consider of the scriptures , and of the intent of them , and what verdict they give in on his side . In the one place , the Prophet * * Ch. 23. 22. ver. 11 Ieremy reproves the Preists and Prophets , for not dealing faithfully with the people , in laying before them their abhominations , and Gods judgements due unto the same , that so they might haue turned from their evil wayes , and from the wickednes of their v. 22. inventions ; but for flattering them on the contrary , in their iniquities , and for preaching peace vnto them , for the strengthening of their v. 14. 17. hands in evil . Now if the Ministers in England be measured by these mens line , they will appear to ly levell with them in a great measure .

For first , the greatest part of them by far , declare not the Lords word at all vnto the people , but are tonguetyed that way , some through ignorance , some through idlenes , & many through pride . And of them which preach how many are there mere men-pleasers , flattering the mighty with vayn , and plausibly words , and strengthening the hands of the wicked ; and with prophane , and malicious spirits , reviling , and disgracing all sincerity in all men : adding vnto these evils a wicked conversation , by which they further the destruction of many , but the conversion of none . And lastly , for those few of more sound doctrine , and vnblameable conversation , let these things be considered .

First , they are reputed schismatiques in the Church of Engl: & I. are generally excommunicated ipso facto , & so wil appear to be to any that compares their practise with the ecclesiasticall lawes of that Church .

2. They do with these sound doctrines mingle many errours : II. yea the same things which in the generall they teach , and professe , they do in the particulars , but specially in their practise , gainsay , & deny .

3. As they declare the Lords will vnto the people but by halves , and III. keep back a great part of his counsel , which they know is profitable for them , & wherin they would walk with them , were it not for fear of persecution , so are they ready to de silenced , & to smother the whole counsel of the L. , & not to speak one word more in his name vnto the people vpon ●h●ir Lord Bishops inhibition : which ( were they perswaded in their consciences they were sent of God ) I suppose they durst not do . Of which more in the seventh Argument .

Now for that in Tim. 1. Epist. 4. ch. ver. 6. if the doctrine of the Ministers agree with the doctrine , and practise of the Ch: they will appear liker to them , of whom Paul speaks , ver. 3. then to Timothy , ver: 6. If it be sayd , that the Church of England , forbid ▪ not mariage , & vse of meates absolutely , but in certayn respects ; I answer , no more doth the Church of Rome , but to certeyn persons , and at certeyn times : against whom notwithstanding all Protestants do apply this scripture : and so doth the Church of England forbid them ; though more sparingly ( as good reason the daughter come something behind the mother ) as mariage to fellowes in Colledges , and to Apprentices , and to all at certeyne tymes , especially at Lent : during which holy time , the eating of flesh is also forbidden , and abstinence commaunded , and that in incitation of * * Book of Common pr. Christs f●●ting for our sakes fourty dayes , and fourty nightes ; and that for a religious vse , namely the subd●ing of the flesh vnto the spirit , for the better obedience of godly motto●s in righteousnes , & true holynes , as the Collect for the first sunday in Lent witnesseth .

But admit the Ministers of Engl: taught foundly in all the mayn points of religion , as I acknowledge some doe in the most , yet did this no way prove them true Ministers of Christ , that is , lawfully called to true offices in the Church .

In what mayn point of religion ( as you valew points ) could Corah be chalenged ? and yet he was no true Preist of the Lord , but Num. 16. an vsurper of that office ▪ v. 10. 11. as on the contrary , they were Ier. 23. 11. true Preists , in respect of their office , who deceived the people here , and every where , as the scriptures manifest . So that both he , which is no true minister of Christ , may teach the ma●n truthes of religion : and he also that is a true Minister , may erre greatly , & yet not presently cease to bear both the place , and name of a true minister of Christ . Otherwise all Ministers are Popes , that cannot err .

To end this Argument , Mr B. in both his books would have probation , and tryall to be made of a mans gifts , and graces before he be admitted into the ministery . And not onely he , but Paul himself amongst , & above the rest , requires , * * 1. Tim. 3. 2. aptnes to teach and † † Tit. 1. ● ability to exhort with wholesome doctrine : and as this gift must be in him , so must it be known to be in him , before he can be lawfully called into the ministery ▪ and this Mr B. affirms expresly , and that by the exercise of this gift , his knowledge , zeal and vtterance , is to be manifested . Wherevpon I conclude that , if tryall by sound doctrine must be made of them , which are no ministers at all ( as indeed it must in the exercise of prophesying ) then cannot sound doctrine be any sufficient tryall , that is proof , or Argument , of a true minister .

The sixth Argument for the justification of the ministers in Engl. Mr B. is , Gods ordinary , and dayly assistance of them in theyr ministery , for the working mens conversion vnto the Lord .

God forbid I should eyther deny , or make doubt of the effectuall Answ. conversion of men vnto salvation in Engl. neyther doth Mr Ainsworth say ( as you charge him in your 2. book ) that none are converted Pag. 298. by you : but he shewes , first , how you contradict your selves in saying that you convert men to God , and yet affirm , that the same persons before their conversion , were true Christians : and 2. that considering the swarmes of graceles persons , wherewith all your parrishes are filled , you have more cause of blushing , then of boasting this way . But this I deny , that the conversion of men vnto God is a sufficient Argument to prove a true minister of Christ : that is , to prove a lawfull calling into a true office of ministery , according to Christs testament . It is most evident , that whosoever converteth a man vnto God , that person doth in truth , and in deed minister the word of God , & the spirit by the word : & so may be sayd to be sent of God ; but that every one , whom God so honoreth , ( though never so ordinarily ) should therefore be a true Church officer lawfully called to publique administration ( which is the quaestion betwixt Mr B. and me ) is most vntrue & contrary both to many * * Lev. 4. 22 23 27. 28. & 19. 17. mat. 18. 15. Ioh. 4. 39. Act. 8. 4. with 11. 1● 20. 21. 1. Cor 14. 24. 25. Iam. ● . 19. 20. scriptures , which shew that men in no office , may , and to much experience , which shewes they do convert , and save sinners . And if onely officers may convert vnto the Lord , to what purpose should private persons exhort , instruct , and reprove any vpon any occasion whatsoever ?

But here I am driven to take vpon me the defence of them , whom Mr B. pag. 299. of his 2. book challengeth for cavellers , upon the same ground ▪ he chalengeth Mr Ainsworth for deceip●ful dealing , pag. 304. of the same book .

Mr Ainsworth denyes that qualification with good gifts is a proof of a lawful Minister . Herein sayth Mr B. he severs deceiptfully things Mr B. to be conioyned , for this reason with the rest in my book , shewes , who is a true Minister . In like maner , we except against his 6. Argument , & affirm that others , besides Ministers , do convert men to God ; & that therfore conversion argues not a true minister . This is cavelling , sayth Mr B. for both these , and others may conv●rt : and agayn this is but one Reason , but there be m●re besides , which are sufficient to prove our ministery .

And is it cavelling in vs , or ignorance in you thus to speak ? Answ. you do acknowledge pag. 304. that qualification with good gifts is a Reason amongst the rest to shew a true Minister : and pag. 298 you make the conversion of men , a distinct argument to prove the same thing . And know you not , that every sound Reason , or Argument must prove , or argue , of it self , the thing , for which it is brought ? Many Reasons indeed , or Arguments may be produced to prove one , and the same thinge : and so for further confirmation , may follow one vpon another : but so as every one of them severally be of force to prove the thing in quaestion , otherwise it is not worthy the name of a Reason , or Argument , but is a meer sophistication . Eyther therefore Mr Bernard bring such Arguments , as wil of themselves evince that they are brought for ; and then reckon them vp by sevens as you do here ; or by twenties if you will , as els where you doe : or els cease to abuse the Reader with a multitude of maymed proofs as your custome is .

Now bycause the conversion of men to God is much vrged by the Ministers , and much stood at by many well minded people ( as indeed both in equity , and good conscience , men are to respect the instruments of Gods mercy towards them ) I will enlarge my self , in this point , further , then otherwise I would .

And first for the two scriptures quoted in both your books . Mr B. 2. book p. 308 Rom. 10. 14. 15. 1 Cor. 9. 2. from the former of which you conclude , that bycause you so preach , as people thereby do heare , beleeve , & call vpon God , you are therefore sent of God .

Let the Reader here observe , that the Apostle in both these places Answ. speaks of the conversion of Heathens , and Infidels to the fayth of Christ , as were the Romayns , and Corinthians before the preaching of the Gospel vnto them : and so let him demaund of Mr B. whether the Ministers in England haue had the same effect in their preaching vnto the people there , with them , that preached vnto the Romayns , and Corinthians , and brought them by preaching from infidelity to beleeve in God ? If they haue , then were the people Infidels before , and without faith , and so are the rest not thus effectually converted by their preaching : if not , how then stands the comparison , or proportion between the effect of their Ministery then , and theirs in England now ? or what Argument can be taken from these effects compared together ? In the generall , I confesse , there is a proportion , and so in that generall , and large sense , wherein Mr B. pag. 313. expounds the word sent , or Apostle , I do acknowledge many Ministers in Engl: sent of God ▪ that is , that it comes not to passe without the speciall providence , and ordination of God , that such , and such men should rise vp , and preach such , and such truthes for the furtherance of the salvation of Gods elect in the places , where they come . They which † † Phil. 1. 15 16. preached Christ of envy , and strif● , to ad more afflictions to the Apostles bonds , were in this respect sent of God , and therefore it was , that the Apostle toyed a● ver. 18. their preaching . How much more they that preach of a sincere mind , though through ignorance , or infirmity ▪ both their place , & enterance into it be most vnwarrantable ? * * Gen. 37. 4 8. 11. 28. Act. 7. 9. Iosephs brethren ▪ the Pa●r●arks , did of h●●red and envy sell him into Aegypt : and yet the s●riptur●s testifie , that ‘* ‘* Gen. 45. 1. 7. 8. God sent him thither . And the same God which could vse their malice ( by which he was sold into Aegypt ) for the bodyly good of his people there ; even he can vse the power of A●tichrist , ( by which the Ministers in the Church of England haue their calling ) Psal. 10● . 17. for the spirituall good of his people there . And yet neyther the secondary meanes of Iosephs sending , nor of the Ministers eyther entry , or standing , any thing at all the more warrantable .

The other scripture is 1 Cor. 9. 2. of which I haue spoken something formerly , & others much more : & in which for the avoiding of ambiguity , I consider these two things . First , what the Apostle purposeth to prove : and 2. the medium , or Argument by which he proves his purpose .

Touching the former , it is evident , his purpose is to prove himself an Apostle , in the most strict , and propper sense , ( howsoever * * pag. 321. Mr B. tri●les ) contrary to the false insinuations of his adversaries , which bare the Churches in hand against him , that he was onely an ordinary Minister , or at least , inferiour to the Apostles , and had his calling , and other ministrations from , and vnder them : as appeareth . 1 Cor. 9. 1. 2 Cor. 10. 16. and 12. 12. Gal. 1. 1. 17. 18. 19. & 2. 6. 7. 8. 9.

The Argument to prove this , which he also calles the seal of his Apostl●ship , and his work , Mr B. ●akes , the Lords effectuall working by 1. Book . p. 120. his Ministery , in the conversion of s●ules vnto God .

Touching which his affirmation , I desire first to know whether 2. Book . p. 321. this conversion of the Corinthians by Paul were to sanctification of life , yea , or no ? If he say no , he gainsayes the Apostle , and his testimony of them : who , writing vnto the Church at Corinthus , confesseth them there “ “ 1 Cor. 1. 1 to be sanctified in Christ Iesus , and Saints by calling : and again advertising them , that † † Ch. 6. 9. 1● . 11. neyther fornica●ours , nor theeves , nor covetous , nor drunckards , nor raylers , nor extortioners should inherit the kingdom of heaven , he testifieth of them , that such were som of them , but sayth he , ye ar washed , but ye ar sanctified , but ye are iustified in the name of the L. Iesus , and by the spirit of our God . Besides , if Pauls work were not the work of sanctification vpon the Corinthians , how will M. B. rayse his Argument for the Ministers in England , from their work of sanctification vpon the people there ? If on the other side he say , that the conversion by Pauls ministery was vnto sanctification , he contradicts himself in his own distinction of double conversion , pag. 307 : of his 2. book , where he allowes vnto the Romayns , Corinthians , and Eph●sians , onely the primary conversion , which is to the profession of Christ , but not the secondary , which is to sanctification of life . In which his distinction , as he idly imagins a true conversion without sanctification , so doth he highly detract from the APOSTLE PAVL , as if he had not converted men to sanctification ; or had gathered Churches of persons unsanctified outwardly , and in the judgement of charity .

2. How can the simple conversion of men prove both Mr Ber. an ordinary Minister , which he would be , and Paul no ordinary Minister , but an extraordinary Apostle , which he would be ?

3. If conversing be a sign of a true Minister , then are both the Bishops in Engl: and the Ministers in the reformed Churches , true Ministers : for without doubt , some of both haue bene instruments vnder God of mens conversion : but that is impossible , considering how the Ministery of the one , wheresoever it comes , eats vp , & destroyes the other . Yea then should both the Ministers of Engl: and we here of the separation ( who haue as M. B : truely answers Mr Smyth , renounced our Ministery received from the Bishops , and do exercise an other by the peoples choise ) be true Ministers of Christ : for as they there avouch this work of conversion , so have wee also here bene made partakers of the same grace of God : & found hi● blessing even that way vpon our Ministery also .

4. As it was the most proper work of an Apostle to convert Heathens to the Lord , and † † 1 Cor. 4. 15. & 3. 6. ● . in Christ Iesus to beget them through the Gospel , and so to plan● Churches , not reioycing in the things already prepared by others , but to preach the gospel , even where Christ had not been named : so is it on the other side the Pastors work to feed than that are Cor. 10. 16. already begotten , converted , & praepared : and therefore the Apostle Rom. 15. 20 Paul comprehends the whole Pastours , and Elders duty vnder the “ “ Act. 20. 17. 28. fee●ing of the flock , all and every part whereof he avoucheth in the iudgement , and evidence of charity , to be purchased with the blood of Christ . And what is a Pastour , but a sheepheard ? and over what flock is a sheepheard set , but over a flock of sheep ? and who are sheep , but they which haue layd asyde their goatish , and swynish nature ? which till men haue learnt to do , they are rather swyne , and goats , then sheep , and so are they , which keep them , rather swyneheards , and goteheards , then sheepheards .

But here two exceptions made by Mr Bernard , in his second pag. 308. book must be satisfied . The former is , that , the Pastour is to feed such litle ones , as are borne in the Church : the other , that he is to Mr B. reclaym such vnto sanctification , as fall to wickednes .

To the former exception I do answer . First , that Paul in the place in hand , rayseth no argument at all from any work vpon the ●●●l● ones born in the Church of Corinth , but vpon the men of riper years , whom he turned from idolatry to the true God . 2. Even ●●●l● ones born in the Church , may in their order , and after their manner , be sayd to be converted , or turned vnto the Lord , or born agayne , which are all one : otherwise being * * Eph. 2. 3. by nature children of wrath , “ “ Psal. 51. 5 born in iniquity , and conceived in sin , how could they be reputed * * 1 Cor. 7. 14. holy ? yea how could they possibly be saved , or enter into Gods kingdom ? Ioh. 3. 5. And since you graunt Mr B. that the Pastor is to feed those litle ones , do you not therein acknowledge they are converted , or borne a new ? In the preface of your book you would haue men begotten after they were born : and here you will haue them fed before they be borne . Now for those little ones , as wee are to repute them holy in regard of the Lordes covenaunt , and do therefore set his seale vpon them , so are their parents even from their cradle to * * Eph. 6. 4. bring them vp in instruction , & information of the Lord : and so to prepare them for the publique ministery : vnto which if they in their riper yeares give obedience in any measure , they are so to be continued in the Church : if other-otherwise , they are in due time , as vnprofitable branches to be lopped of , and so cease to be of the Pastours charge .

Secondly for men falling into wickednes in the Church ; if they continue obstinate , and irreclamable , then are they in order to be consured , and so the Pastour is discharged of them : if on the contrary , God vouchsafe them repentance , this cannot be called a conversion of them to sanctification , but a “ “ Gal. 6. 1. restoring , or recovering of them out of some particular evill , or evils , into which , through infirmity , they are falln . So that the doctrine stands sound , for any thing that Mr Bernard hath sayd , or that eyther he , or any other man can say , that the Pastours office stands in feeding , not in converting : as also that Pauls scale , and work , was not the bare conversion of the Corinthians , but their conversion from heathenism , plantation into a Church , and these with the signes of an Apostle , even signes , and wonders , and great works , 2 Cor. 12. 12.

Lastly , that the simple be not deceived , and eyther give honour where it is not due ; or give it not , where it is due , let them consider , that the conversion of a man is no way to be ascribed to the order or office eyther of Apostles , or Pastours , but onely to the word of God , which by the inward work of the spirit is † † Rom. 1. 16 the power of God to salvation , to them that beleeve : it is * * ●Psal . 19. 7. the law of the Lord , that converts the soule . The *‘ *‘ Mat. 13. 19. 23. word of the kingdome is that good seed , which being sown in good ground prospereth to the bringing forth of fruit to life , whether he that sow it be in a true office , or in a false office , or in no office at all . And though it be true , which Mr B. saith in his “ “ pag. 130. former book , that the Ministers in England do preach as publik Officers of that Church , yet doth their Office confer , or help nothing at all to the conversion of men . It is the blessing of God vpon the mayn truthes they teach , not vpon their office of Preisthood , which converts : which truthes if they taught without their office , eyther before they were called to it , or being deprived of it , would without doubt be as effectuall , as they are , yea , & much more , by the blessing of God ; as appears in this , that such amongst them , as make least account of their office formally received from the Prelates , are the most profitable instruments amongst the people : where on the contrary , the professed formalists cleaving vnto their office , and order canonically , are generally vnprofitable eyther for the conversion , or confirmation of any to , or in holines .

To conclude then , the turning of men vnto holynes of life , is no iustification of your office of ministery , or calling vnto it , but of such truthes , as are taught amongst you : which all men are bound to hold , and honour , as we also do : though we disclaym the order , and power , in and by which they are ministred .

The seventh , and last argument Mr B. takes from certayn properties of true sheepheards , layd down , Ioh. 10. which he also affirmeth , Mr B. the Ministers of the Church of England have : the first whereof is , that they go in by the dore , Iesus Christ , that is , by his call , and the Churches , which ( as he sayth ) he hath proved at large .

In so saying he speaks at large : let him prove , that the Bishop ▪ Answ. or Patron , or eyther of them , is in Christs place set by him to chuse Ministers : or that they are the Church , to which he hath committed the power of calling and choosing them , and answer the Reasons brought to the contrary : otherwise his large proving will appeare but a large boasting : and he will give men occasion to remember the proverb , It is good beating a proud man .

The 2. property wherewith he investeth them , is , that the porter openeth vnto them : by which porter Mr Smith means the Church , for which Mr B ▪ reviles him out of measure ; making the porter invisibly Mr B. Gods spirit , visibly the authority committed by the Church vnto some for admitting men into the house , the Church of God , which sayth he , is a sensible exposition according to the custome with us , and in Iudaea .

As there are many true ministers ( in respect of men ) which enter Answ. not in at all by the spirit of God , or any motion of it , as it was with Iudas , & is with all hypocrites , who for by-respects take that calling vppon them : so is Mr Smithes exposition making the Church the porter far more probable then yours , who make the porter , the authority , of the Church committed to some for the admission of men . Is not the porter a person rather then a thing ? And who that hath but common sense , will not rather by the porter vnderstand the person or persons having authority , then the authority , which he , or they have ? And if you Mr B. had but remembred , what you write of the properties of the Church pag. 237. 138. making as here you do , the porter , or authority of the Church a property of a sheepheard , you would ( I suppose ) in modesty have forborn the charging of Mr Smith to have his braynes intoxi●ated by his new wayes , & to be madded by his own fantasies in religion , for wryting in this poynt , as he doth . And for the thing it self , it is evident , that Christ Iesus is properly the sheepheard of the sheep , here spoken of : and that therefore the authority ● . ● . 11. of the Church can be no porter for hi enterance , or admission . I do therefore rather think , that by the porter is meant God the father , whose care , and providence is ever over his flock , who therefore hath called , and appoynted his sonne Iesus Christ to be that good sheepheard , who gave his life for his sheep . And if you will apply this to ordinary Pastours , and their calling , then sure by the porter must be meant such , as have received this liberty , & power from Christ by the hands of his Apostles , for the chusing , and appoynting of ministers , which I am sure , of all others , are not the Romish ▪ or English Bishops . Christ would never have the wolves to appoynt his sheep their sheepheards .

The 3. property of good sheepheards which you chalenge to your Mr B. selves , is , that they call their own sheep by name , that is , they take notice of their people ▪ of their growth in religion ●●d do abyde with them , diligently watching over their flockes : as by true and faithfull promise made in the open congregation they be bound in their ordination .

It must here be observed , as before , that Christ speaks onely of Answ. himself properly ; for of him onely , it can be sayd , that the sheep a● his own : the people are very improperly called the Ministers sheep : & Christ sayth not vnto Peter † † Ioh. 21. 15 16. 17. feed thy sheep , but my sheep .

2. To take your own exposition Mr B. how can your Praelates , whom in the 6. Argument you make sheepheards , call their sheep by name , or take notice of , & watch over their whole Diocesan , and Provinciall flocks ? Yea if your self or any one amongst you , take notice of your people , as the flock of Christ , and of their growth in religion , they take notice of that which is not . I speak of the flock , though I doubt no● but there are some sheep straying from the right fould , in your heards . Of the abyding of your Ministers with their flockes , wee shall speak hereafter : onely this in the mean while , that considering how many flocks you your self Mr B. have forsaken , me thinks you should haue forborn , in wisdome , to make this one property of a true sheepheard .

A 4. property of a good sheepheard , you say , you have , which Mr B. is , to lead forth your sheep , viz , from pasture to pasture , from milk to strong meat , &c.

There are many faire , and wholsome pastures in the feild of Answ. Gods word , into which you do not lead your sheep , no nor so much as point to them with the finger : neyther indeed dare you , because they are hedged in with humain authority , your statutes , & canons ecclesiastical . Nay all your care is to keep your people from the knowledg of them , least they should break through those thorny hedges , at which you stick .

The 5. and last property for which you commend your selues , is , Mr B. your going before the flockes , that is , in godly conversation .

As I acknowledge the vnblameable conversation of many amongst Answ. you , so do many Papists , Anabaptists , and other vile haeretiques , and schismatiques walk as vnblameably this way , as you ; and yet are they not true sheepheards of Christs sheep . But by the sheepheards going before the sheep in this place is meant , as I take it , partly the care of the minister in governing the people ; partly , his constancy in danger , to which he exposeth himself in the forefront ; and in these respects , he is sayd to goe before the flock . Now f●ll ●ll do these properties agree with the Ministers , for whome Mr Bernard pleadeth . Who as they govern not the people at all , but are themselves & the people with them vnder the government of their Diocesan and Provinciall Pastours : so do they in the tyme of danger most perfidiously forsake their flockes : wherein their sin is the greater , considering the faythfull promise , which you your self testify they make in the open congregation , diligently to watch over their flockes .

Now howsoever , that which hath been spoken will appear , I doubt not , sufficient to force Mr B. from this 10 of Iohn , yet bycause he d●●ms it so strong an hold for him , as we cannot overthrow it , pag. 302. we will adventure a litle further vpon it , and see whither there be not to be found in it sufficient of the Lords munition , not on●ly to batter the wall , but even to rase the foundation of the ministery of England for which he pleadeth . I.

First then , all true sheepheards are set over flocks of * * Ioh. 21. 15. 16. 17. Act 2● . 1● . 25. 29. sheep to feed them . But the ministers in England were not set over flocks of sheep , but indeed over heards of swine , goates , and dogges with some few sheep scattered amongst them . Which the wild , & filthy beastes push worry , and defile . Therfore the ministers of England are not true sheepheards .

2. True sheepheards enter in by the dore Christ , v. 2. 7. that is by II the meanes , which his Apostles at his appoyntment , haue commended vnto the Churches , act. 6. 2. 3. 4. 5. & . 14. 23. But the ministers in England enter into their charges by the presentation of a Patron , the institution of a Praelate , & the induction of an Archdeacon , which is not the dore opened by Christ , for the sheepheard to enter by , but a lather set vp by Antichrist wherby to clime over the fold .

3. The shepheard is by his office to feed and govern the flock , as Mr III. B : himselfe testifieth from this scripture . But as seeding , that is , 〈◊〉 . ●92 . reaching , or preaching vnto the people ( as is his meaning ) is no part of the parish Preists duety , but a casual , and super-erogarory work : so are they altogether stript of government ; and therefore no true sheepheards of Christs flocks .

Lastly , the good sheepheard seing danger towards the sheep ▪ will IIII. rather give his life then ●lee ; where on the contrary , the hireling s●ing the wolf comming , fleeth , because he is an hyreling . ver. 11. 12. 13. wherevpon it followeth , that the ministers Mr B. cheifly meanes , leaving their flocks vpon the Bishops vngodly suspensions , and deprivations , as vpon the ba●king of a wolfe , do evidently proclaym to all the world , that they are no good sheepheards , but hyrelings . And so far am I perswaded of hundreds amongst them , that , I doubt not , but if they thought in their harts , they were by Christs appointment set in their charges , and by him commaunded there to minister , they would never so fowly , as they do , forsake their flocks vpon the suspension , or deprivation of a prophane Praelate , or Chauncelour , for refusing conformity or subscription , to their popish devises .

When DAVID was in his greatest trials , and that his enemies laboured most , eyther to frustrate , or deprive him of his kingdom , and so to turn his glory into shame , his comfort was , that God had * * Psal. 2. ● . & 4. 2. 3. set him as his King vpon Syon , the mountayn of his holynes : and that the Lord had chosen , or separated him vnto himself . Likewise when Iakob was in that great both danger , and fear of his brother Esau , the thing that susteyned him , was , that †‘ †‘ Gen. 32. 9. God had sayd vnto him , return unto thy country , and to thy fathers kindred , & I will do the good .

And as it was with these two , so is it with all the servants of God both in their generall , & speciall callings . When they haue assurance by the word , and spirit of God , that he is the authour of their calling , then do they with patience , and comfort of the H. Ghost suffer such trials , and afflictions , as are incident therevnto : where on the contrary , wanting thi● assurance , they are soon discouraged even in the good things they do , if persequutions do arise ; and being without the Lords calling , no marvayl though they want his comfort .

The Apostle Paul advertiseth the “ “ Act. 20. 27. 28. 29. Elders of Ephesus , that they are made overseers or Bishops , of the flock , by the H. Ghost , and thereupon takes occasion to exhort them to all vigilancy , & faythfulnes against the invasion of such wolves , a● should enter in to devour the flock . Now if those men of whom I speak , be perswaded that they at placed in their charges by the H. Ghost , how do they forsake them not being by him displaced , or do they think the H. Ghost lisplaceth them for their weldoing , or for their refusing to do evil , as to sub●ctibe , conform , and the like ? They speak of the seal of their Ministery , and of their inward calling , and of the peoples acceptation , and of many things more , very plausible to the multitude ; but in the day of their triall , it appeares , what small comfort they have in all these : and as is their coming in , so is their going out : since they entered not in by the dore , no mervayl though they suffer themselves to be thrust out by the window , or to be tumbled over the wall , or otherwise to be discharged vpon some small , and sleighty occasion . Mr B.

But * suppose ( say you ) a false enterance , yet that no more disanulls pag. 142. 1. book . the ministery , then doth a faulty enterance to mariage , disanul that ordinance between two conioyned to be lawful man , and wife .

But first , I deny your very office of ministery in it self to be a Answ. spirituall ordinance of God , as is mariage a civill ordinance .

2. If one of these two persons were vncapable of mariage , ther would follow a nullity : and so is it with you , where your parish assemblies are all of them vncapable of the ministery of Christ , and the ministrations thereof .

3. If this mariage were made without the free consent , and choise of the one party , were it not to be disanulled ? and this is your case , if you consider it , where the minister is put vpon the people , without their free choise , and election .

Lastly , if two persons were maryed with this condition , that they should leave one another vpon the imperious commaund of some great man , for some small , and sleighty matter , or other ; were this true , and lawfull mariage ? And is not this the estate of your Ministers , and people vnder their imperious Lords the Prelates ? by whom they are in continuall danger of divorce , for want of canonicall conformity in some triviall , and trifling ceremony .

Thus much of this similitude , as also of this matter .

That which comes next into consideration , is the poynt of succession : wherein , in the first place , answer must be given to a demaund made by M. B. in his † † pag. 311. 2. book : in which many others also think there is much weight : and that is , why we hold , and reteyn the baptism received by succession , and not the Ministery ? Mr B.

For answer vnto him I would know of him , whether the Church I. of England do still , ( or did at the first ) reteyn the ministery of Answ. the Church of Rome , or no ? If he say it doth , then I would entreat him , and others not to take it ill , if we call and account them Preists ; for such are the Romish Ministers . 2. How can the Church of England forsake the Church of Rome , and reteyn the Ministery which is in the Church , as in the subiect ? especially if the Ministery make the Church , as Mr Bernard affirms : for then a true Ministery must needs make a true Church : and communion with the Ministery drawes on necessarily communion with the Church . But if on the contrary he affirm , that the Church of England doth renounce the Ministery or Preisthood of the Church of Rome ; then I return his demaund vpon himself , and ask him , why it reteyns the Baptism of Rome ? and so leave him to himself for answer .

2. The Baptism both in England , and Rome , is in the essentiall causes of it , the matter , water , the form , baptizing into the name of the Father , Sonne , and Holy Ghost , Christs baptism , and ordinance , though in the administration it be Antichrists devise : but for the Ministery eyther in Rome , or England it is otherwise . The Ministery of Christ doth summarily , and in the substance of it , consist in the “ “ Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. feeding of the flock , that is , in providing food for the flock , and in guiding and ordering the same accordingly ; in a word , in preaching , and government , 1 Tim. 5. 17. Put what is this to the Preisthood of England , ( to let passe that of Rome ) vnto which preaching is not necessarily annexed , nor government so much as permitted ? To swear Canonicall obedience , subscribe , conform , read the service book , celebrate mariage , Church women , and bury the dead in form , & order , are essentiall & substantiall parts , or properties of the Ministery there , in the present both practise , and constitution .

The vessels of gold , and silver , which were taken out of the temple in the captivity , and caried to Babylon , and there prophaned , might notwithstanding ( being sanctified from their prophanation there ) be lawfully caried back to Ierusalem and set vp in the temple newly built , and imployed , as in former times to Gods service : but had these vessels been broken in peices in Bab●lon , and there ( being mingled with brasse , and iron , & such b●se mettall ) been cast in another mould , they could not th●n have ob●●●ned th●● former place in the temple , nor there have been 〈…〉 d for the holy ministration . Now such is the difference between the Baptism , and Ministery , both in the Romish , and English Church . To former , as a vessel of the Lords house , may with the Lords people be brought back from Babylon spirituall to the new Ierusalem and there may ( being sanctified by repentance ) serve , and be of 〈…〉 to all the ends and purposes for which God hath appointed it . But for the Ministery , or Preisthood , eyther in the one , or other , it is in it selfe no vessell of the Lordes house ; it is neyther made of the mettall , which the Lord hath appointed , nor cast in his mould . It is essentially degenerated from that office of Pastourship which Christ the Lord hath set in his house for the feeding of the flock by teaching , and government , as hath been formerly shewed : and is in the true naturall , & canonicall institution of it a very devised patchery , & compound , like “ “ Dan. 2. 30. 32. 33. the image , which the King of Babylon saw in his dream ; save that little , or nothing of it is gold , or silver , but all brasse , iron , & clay , & the like base mettall , & stuffe : fitting right well both in the administration of it vnto the people , and in the subordination vnto the people , and in the subordination vnto the Prelacy , for the exaltation of the man of sinne , which hath for that very purpose devised it , and placed it in the Church for his service : that by it , as by an vnderst●p he might climbe up , & advaunce himself into the throne of iniquity , where he sitts exalted III. above all , that is called God .

3. The Ministers of the Church now do succeed the * * Esa. 66. 21. Ier. 33. 18 , 21. Preists , and Levites vnder the law , as † † Col 2. 11. 12. baptism also comes in the place of circumcision . Now wee read in the scr●p●ures , that such of the ten tribes , as were in Ieroboams idolatrous schism , and apostasie , ( thereby as a branch from the root , cutting off themselves actually from the onely true Church of God , which was radically at 2 Chro. 30. 11. 18. 2● . Ierusalem , where the Lord had founded his temple , appoynted his sacrifices , and promised his praesence ) that such of them , I sa● , as returned to the Lord by repentance , and ioyned themselves unto the true Church , were , by vertue of the circumcision received in that their apostasie , wherein they had no ●i●le to * * Rom. 4. 11. the seale of the forgivenes of sinnes ( which circumcision was ) admitted into the temple , Ezech. 44. 7. Act. 21. 18. into which , no m●n vncircumcised might enter , and to the participation of the Passeover , † † Exod. 12. 48. whereof none vncircumsed person might eat . But that any person , should by vertue of his office of Preisthood received in that , or the like apostasie , have entered into the Lord , sanctuary , there to have done the Preists office vpon any repentance whatsoever , had been an intollerable vsurpation , & sacrilegious 2 King . 23. 9. Ezech. 44. 10. 11. 12. 13. invasion of the holy things of God : yea the sonnes of Aaron themselves , vnto whom the Preisthood did of right apperteyn , if they thus went astray from the Lord after idols , were for ever debarred from doing the Preists office , notwithstanding any repentance they could make : and were to beare , all their lives long , their iniquity , and shame . Now by that which hath been spoken of circumcision , and the preisthood vnder the law , the reader may easily observe the difference betwixt Baptism , and the Ministery now . The particular application for brevities sake I forbear .

4. and lastly , the difference betwixt Baptism , and the Ministery IIII. is exceeding great , in respect of that speciall , and most necessary relation , which the MINISTERY aboue Bap●ism hath vnto the CHVRCH : whether we respect the enterance into it , or continuance in it . Wee do read in the scriptures , that holy men , called thereunto of GOD might lawfully administer BAPTISM vnto fit persons without the consent , or cognition of the Church ; as † † Act. 8. 12. 38. ch. 9 18. & 10. 47 48. & 16. 15. 33. PHILIP did the SAMARITANS , and the EUNUCH , ANANIAS SAUL , PETER CORNELIUS , PAUL LIDIA , and the IAYLOUR : but now for the appointing of Ministers without the Churches consent , and choise , that did they not , as the scriptures testify , & M. B. himself confesseth . And as the enterance of ordinary officers ( of which we speak ) doth necessarily praesuppose a Church , by whose election , they are to enter , so doth their continuance require a Church , in which , as in a subject , they must subsist , & to which they must minister . For since the † † 1 Tim. 3. 1 o●●i●● of a Bishop is a work , a man is no longer a Bb. them he worketh . It is not with the office of ministery , as it is with the order of knighthood , that once a Minister ever a Minister . The Popish Character is a mere fiction , brought in for the confirmation of the sacrament of orders as they call it .

Whensoever the scriptures do mention “ “ Act. 14. 23. & 15. 2. 4. 22. & 20 17. 28. 1. Cor. 12. 28. Elders , or Bishops eyther in respect of theyr calling , or ministration , they still speak of them , as in or of such , and such particular Churches , and none otherwise . And to imagine an Elder or Bishop without a Church , is to imagine a Constable without a parrish or hundred ; a Maior or Alderman without a Corporation , or a publique officer without some publique person , or society , whose officer he is . Herevpon also Phil. 1. 1. T●● . 1 5. 1. Pet. 5. 1. 2 it followeth , that if the Church be dissolved by death , apostacy or otherwise , the Minister ceaseth to be a Minister , bycause the Church ceaseth ; in relation vnto which ( vnder Christ ) his Ministery consisteth : but on the contrary , a baptized person remayns still baptized though the whole Church , yea all the Churches of the world be dissolved , so long as God , & his Christ remayn the same , into whose name he hath been baptized .

And of the same consideration is it , that a Minister may ( for some scandalous sin ) be degraded , and deposed from his Ministery , as I have formerly shewed , & as all Churches practise : and so that , which was formerly given him , is taken from him , and he no more a Minister , then he was before his caling : yea if he remayn obstinate in his sin , he is to be excommunicated , & so ceasing to be a member , he must needs cease to be a Minister of the Church . But neyther do the scriptures mention , neyther did any Church ever attempt the vn-baptizing of a baptized person . And as a man may justly be deposed from his Ministery , so may he in cases lawfully depose himself , and lay it down : as if by the hand of God , he be vtterly disabled from ministring , as it may come to passe , & oft tymes doth : but for a man to lay down his baptism for any such infirmity , were impious , as it were sacrilegious for the Church to deprive him thereof . To these considerations I might also adde , that if a man forfeyt his Ministery , and so be deprived of it , eyther by deposition , or excommunication , and be afterwards vpon his repentance judged capable of it , he must have a new calling , or a confirmation at the least , answerable vnto a calling : so must it also be with him , that is translated from an inferiour office to a superiour ; but in baptism there may be no such changing , or repetition . The practise were haereticall .

Adde vnto these things , that as a man once baptized is alwayes baptized , so is he in all places , and Churches where he comes ( as a baptized person ) to enjoy the common benefits of his baptism , & to discharge the common duties , which depend vpon it . But a Pastour is not a Pastour in every Church , where he comes vpon occasion , neither can he require in any other Church , saving that one , over which the H : Ghost hath set him , that obedience , maintenance , and other respect , which is due to the officers from the people ; neyther stands he charged with that Ministery , and service , which is due to the people from the Officers : & if you Mr B. say otherwise , you make every Pastour a Pope , or vniversall Bishop . “ “ Col. 4. 12. Epaphras , though he were at Rome , was one of them ( that is a Minister ) of Collossus : so were * * Act. 20. 17. 28. the Elders of Ephesus , though they were at Miletum , the Elders of Ephesus onely , but of none other Church ; and charged to feed the flock over which the holy Ghost had set them , but none other ; for over none other had the holy Ghost set them . And as a Maior out of his Corporation , a Shiriffe out of his County , a Constable out of his Parish , or Hundred , is no Maior , Shiriffe , or Constable , ( but in relation to that particular body of which he is ) neither can he perform any proper act of his office without vsurpation ; so neyther is a Bishop , or Elder , a Church Officer , save in his owne particular Church , and charge , and in relation vnto it , neyther can he without ambitious vsurpation perform any proper work of his Office , or Ministèry , save in that Church by , and to which , in his ministration , he is designed .

And thus much to shew the difference betwixt that relative ordinance of the Ministery , and that personall ordinance of Baptism in the Church ; as also to prove , that we do lawfully , and with good warrant disclaym , and renounce the Ministery received in Rome , & England , notwithstanding we reteyn the Baptism received both in the one , and the other . To which also , I could adde ( if there were need , or vse ) both the judgement of the learned at home , & abroad , and the practise of the reformed Churches , where we live , for the continuing of the Baptism in Rome received , but no more of the Masse preists for Ministers , then of the Masse it self , for which they were ordeyned . But it is more then tyme I come to the mayn controversie about succession ; which might be layd down summarily in these words : whether the reformed Churches were bound to submit ( notwithstanding their separation from Rome ) vnto such ministers onely , as were ordeyned by the Pope , and his Bishops : but for the better clearing of things I will enlarge my speach to these three distinct considerations .

First , whether the Ministery be before the Church , or no.

2. Whether the delegated power of Christ for the vse of the holy things of God be given primarily , and immediately to the Church , or to the Ministers ?

3. Whether the Lord haue so linked the Ministery in the chayn of succession , that no Minister can be truely called , and ordeyned , or appointed without a praecedent Minister .

Touching the first of these Mr Ber: affirmeth as in his † † pag. ●● . former book : that the Officers make the Church , and give denomination vnto it : so expresly in his * * pag. 18● . 2. book , that the Ministery is before the Church . And noting in the same place a two fold raysing vp of the Ministery : the first to beget a Church : the second , when the Church is gathered ; he puts the Ministers in both before the Ch: in the former , absolutely , in the latter , in respect of their Office , and ordination by succession from the first : In which discourse he intermingleth sundry things , frivolous , vnsound , and contradictory .

Now for the first entery , I desire the reader to observe with me that the quaestion betwixt Mr Bernard and me is about ordinary Ministers , or officers of the Church , such as were the first Ministers of the reformed Churches , and as Mr B : and I pretend our selves to be : and not about extraordinary Ministers , extraordinarily , miraculously , or immediately , raysed vp as were Adam , and the Apostles by God , and Christ : whom he produceth for examples . Admit the one sort ( being called immediately , and miraculously ) may be before the Church : yet cannot the other , which must be called by men , and those eyther the Church , or members of the Church at the least .

Besides , the word Minister extends it self not onely vnto Officers ordinary , and extraordinary , but even to any outward means , whether person or thing , by which the revealed will of God is manifested , and made known vnto men for their instruction , and conversion . Yea it reacheth even to God himself : & so far Mr B. stretcheth it , where he makes * * First book pag. 144. God the first preacher Gen. 2. 3. As though there were a controversy between him , and me , whither God , or the Church were first . I see not but by the same reason he might avouch , that the Ministers of the Church could not all dy , or be deceived , bycause God is free from these infirmityes . It is true which Mr B. sayth , that the word is before the Church , as the seed , which begetteth it , and so is that which brings it , yea whither it be person , or thing , which may also be called a Minister , and be sayd to be sent of God , as it is an instrument to convey , and means to minister the knowledg of the same word , & will of God vnto any . So if any private man , or woman should be a means to publish , or make known the word of God to a company of Turkes , Iewes , or other Idolaters , he or she might truely be sayd to be their Minister , and the Lords Ambassadour vnto them , as you speak . Yea if they came to this knowledg by reading the Bible , or other godly book , that book or bible , as it served to minister the knowledg of Gods wil in his word might truely in a generall sense be accounted as a Minister vnto them . But what were all this to a Church-officer , about whom our quaestion is ? These things Mr B. shuffles together , but the wise reader must distinguish them , & so doing , he shall easily discover his trisling .

The particulars follow . And first he affirmeth , that God made Adam Mr B. a Minister , to whom he gave a wife to begin the Church , and as Adam was before his wife , so is the Ministery at the first before the Church .

If Adams wife began the Church , then is your mayn foundation Answ. overthrown ; namely that the ministers make , and denominate the Church , except you will say that Eve was a Minister . Secondly it is not true you say , that God made Adam a Minister , before Eve was created . In the same place you make ( and truely ) a Minister , and Ambassadour which brings the word all one : & vnto whom could Adam eyther minister the word , or be an Ambassadour to bring it before Eve was formed ? There was nothing but bruit beasts , and senceles trees , and to them I suppose he brought it not . The truth is , Adam and Eve were the Ch. not by his , but by her creation , which made a company , or society : & thus we are in the first place to consider of them , and of Adam as a teacher in the second place ; the speciall calling here , and ever , following after , and vpon the generall .

Of the same force with your first proof is your 2. which you Mr B. take from Ephes. 4. 11. 12. where it is sayd , God gave some not onely to confirm the Church , but to gather the Saynts to make a Church .

To let passe your boldnes with the words , I except against your Answ. exposition , & application of them . The word gathering vpon which you insist , is in some bookes turned repayring , and is the same in the Greek with that which is restoring , Gal. 6. 1. of which I have spoken formerly .

Againe , Paul in that place speaks not onely of Apostles , & other Ministers of the first raysing vp : for the begetting of Churches : but of Pastours , and Teachers which were taken out of the Church , and of the 2. raysing for the feeding of the flock . You will not deny but the Apostles and brethren at Ierusalem were a Church of God , Act. 1. 15. 16. when as yet no Pastours or Teachers were appointed in it : and how then can your doctrine stand , that the Ministers spoken of Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ( amongst which were Pastours and Teachers ) were before the Church , out of which they were taken , and raysed vp of God to beget a Church ? Yea it is evident that the very office of Pastour was not then heard of in the Church ; whereby the falsity of your other affirmation is discovered , to wit , that the Office of such Ministers as are of the second raysing , & which are taken out of the Church , is before the Church .

Thirdly , the Apostles themselves ( howsoever extraordinary officers immediately called , and sent forth to beget other Churches both of Iewes , and Gentiles ) were Christians before they were Apostles , and members of the Church before they were Officers . And the scriptures do expresly testify , that † † ● Cor. ●● . 28. God ordeyned , or set in the Church Apostles , amongst other Officers : and this their setting in the Church doth necessarily praesuppose a Church , wherein they were set , as the setting of a candle in a candlestick , praesupposeth a candlestick : as in deed the Church is the * * Rev 1. 2. Math. 5. 14 15. Candlestick , & the officers the candles , lights , and starres , which are set in it .

Lastly , it is a senceles affirmation you make , that a man sent to win people is a minister to the hidden number , not yet called out , which Mr B. are also his flock potentially though not actually . Answ.

The “ “ Ioh. 10. 3 pag. 302. scriptures , and you accordingly in another place , make it a property of a good Minister to call his own sheep by name , that is , as you expound it , to take notice of his people & of their growth in religion &c. & now here , you wil haue a minister of the hidden number whereof he can take no notice at all : nor can tell whether or no , he shall find one sheep amongst them . Besides you commit a Logicall errour in raysing an actuall Minister from the relation he hath vnto a flock potentially : you may as truely affirm , that a single man towards mariage is an housband , and a father , bycause he may have wife , and children . Any man , that vpon a just calling , or occasion , opens ▪ and makes known the Gospel of salvation vnto a company of Turks , or Pagans , may in that generall sense be called the Lords Minister sent vnto them : but a Church Officer , of whom our quaestion is , till he have by his Ministery called , and separated them vnto the Lord , and be by their election , called , and separated to his office , can he neyther be , nor be called .

One thing more you adde , which is , that Ministers may be the Mr B. Church , as they are Christians , and that they are Ministers in respect of an office bestowed upon them in their state of Christianity : wherein you Answ. speak ( and that truely ) sufficient to overthrow not onely your particular errour in this place , but well nigh your whole writing . For therevpon it followeth , First that the Church is before the Ministery , bycause men are a Church as they are Christians , & Christians , before they be Ministers . 2. That Ministers make not the Church but become such by an office bestowed vpon them in their state of Christianity , that is , in their Church state . Thirdly , that the Christian brethren though not in office are part of the Church , Math. 18. since even the officers themselves are acknowledged the Church , or of the Church , as they are Christians .

I come now vnto the 2. consideration , and do affirm against Mr Ber. that the delegated , and communicated power of Christ is given primarily , and immediately to the Church , and not to the officers .

This point I haue formerly handled at large , vnder two generall heads opened in the former part of my † † pag. 125. 126. &c. book , vnto which I do entreat the reader to look back , yet will I for further satisfaction I. breifly annex a few things .

First , bycause * * Rom. 3. 2. & 9. 4. E. phe . 2. 12. vnto the Iewes were of credit committed the Oracles of God , vnto whom also did the covenants apperteyn , and all the priviledges of them , as to the common wealth of Israel . 1 Cor. 3. 22 23.

2. Bycause the Ministers themselves are given to the Church , & the Churches immediately , as the Church is Christs , & Christ Gods . II. And if this holy thing the Ministery be the Churches immediately , then other things also as well as it , in respect of right , and possession , though she vse the service of the Ministers ordinarily for the dispensation , & exequution of them . It is not denyed , but that the officers in such works , as they perform vnto the Ch●in the name of the Lord , as ofdoctrine , exhortation , admonition , & the like , stand in a more imediate relation vnto the Lord , then the Church doth : but it must also be remembred , that this no more advanceth the order of their Office above the order of the body , then it doth one private bother , performing the same work orderly in the exercise of prophesying , or otherwise .

3. The Officers are to dispense , and exequute the holy things III. of God , as the Rom. 15. 31. 1 Cor. 4. 1. 2 Cor. 4. 5. Col. 1. 24. 25. servants , & Ministers of Christ , & his Church : and whatsoever they do in their office , they do it , as the servants , and ministers both of Christ and of the Church . Now common sense teacheth men , that , what power , or authority soever the servants , or Ministers of others haue , or vse in their places , that authority and power , they haue first , whose servants and ministers they are : and that therefore the holy things of God are primarily , and immediately the Churches vnder Christ , and in the last place the Officers , as the servants of Christ , and his Church , for execution , in the order , which Christ hath left .

The last , & greatest quaestion now comes into handling ▪ namely whether Ministers may be made by such as are no Ministers . For this phrase of making Ministers Mr B. affects much , belike with reference speciall to the Ministers of England , and Rome , who are fitly sayd to be made by the Bishops , & to be the workmanship of their hands .

Mr Ber. vehemently v●geth the negative part , namely , that no Minister may be made but by a minister : & tying , as he doth the Ch: to the Ministery , & the Ministery to succession , ther is cause he should . For if the chayr of succession should break , both the Ch: & Ministery of England must fall to the ground .

The onely Argument he brings for his purpose , is an historicall narration ( as he speaks ) from time to time , without any one instance to the contrary : & the constant practise of the Church of God from the dayes Mr B. of Adam hitherto . 2. book . 186 ● Book . 144 Answ.

I desire the Reader in the first place to take knowledge from me , that I deny not , but confesse , that the Churches of God , more particularly , and the Churches of the new testament continuing , and abyding in that state , † † Col. 2. 5. ●ayth , & order , wherein they were set , & established by the Lord in the hands of his servants the Apostles , & E●angelists , were to receive their ministers constantly by succession , after a sort , namely so far , as that all succeeding Ministers were to be ordeyned by Ministers , and no otherwise . But would any man , save eyther a marked servant of the Pope , or one that cared not what he wrote for some praesent seeming-advantage , argue as this man doth , from the estate of the Churches of Christ , and in particular of the Church at Rome , in Peter , and Pauls time , to the estate , wherein now it is , or was an hundred years since , in which estate we are to consider of it ? But of this more hereafter .

The historicall narration before spoken of , Mr B. divides into 4. tymes or ages : the first wherof is from the beginning of the world , till the giving of the law : the 2. from the law , till Christs comming : the 3. from Christ , till the end of the history of the new testament : p. 184. 185. the 4 , and last from that tyme , hitherto .

Let vs consider of his instances . And first ( sayth he ) God at the Mr B. worlds beginning , ordeyned Adam in his place ; and till the law did rayse up extraordinary Teachers : whom he also nameth in his 2. book , as Henoh , Noah , Abraham , Isaak , Iakob , Ioseph , Lev● and the rest .

As it is true , that all Ministers are both to be called , and ordeyned Answ. of God , and ordinary Ministers to be called by the Church , and ordeyned by the Church-officers if there be any in that Ch: by , and to which the latter are called , so neyther doth the age wherein you first instance , draw any such straight line of succession , or conclude any such necessity of ordination by praecedent officers , as you praetend . And that you may more clearly see this , you must take notice of your errour , in affirming , that God raysed vp extraordinary Teachers till the law .

The first born in the families were the ordinary Teachers , ordinarily succeeding , til the Levites were appointed : the office of Preisthood being annexed to their birthright . In which respect it was , that God told Cain “ “ Gen. 4. 7. his brothers desire should be vnto him , and that he should rule over him . For which purpose see also Gen. 21. 9. & 25. 31. 32. 33. 34. & 49. 4. with Deut. 33. 8. Adde vnto this also , that the Lord would haue † † Exo. 12. 2 Ch. 19. 22. every first born amongst the children of Israel consecrated vnto him : that the Priests , or , ( as it is better turned ) the administers of the holy things which come neare to the Lord , should sanctify themselves : and that ‘* ‘* Ch. 24. 5 Moses sent the young men of the children of Israel to offer burnt offrings , and sacrifices vnto the Lord . But most evidently doth this appear in that * * Num. 3. 12. 13. & 8 15. 16. &c. With Deu. 33. 10. the Levites were appointed to teach the people , and to offer sacrifices , and to do the service of the children of Israel in the tabernacle of the congregation , for the first born , that openeth the matrice among the children of Israell .

And as the first born were the ordinary Teachers successively , before the law , in whose stead the Levites afterwards were appointed ; so was this order in sundry persons , and vpon sundry occasions , broken , and interrupted . As in † † Gen. 4. 8. 12. 14. 16. CAIN , for his murder : in “ “ Ch. 11. 31 with ▪ Iosh. 24. 2. 15. TERAH for his Idolatry : in ‘؛‘ ‘؛‘ Ch. 21. 9. 14. ISMAEL for his mocking : & in * * Ch. 25. 31 32. 33. 34. Heb. 12. 16 Gen. 27. 27 ESAV for his prophanenes . To descend lower . When the order of succession in the Preisthood was so far estalished , as that it did divolve , by the word of God , from the parents vpon the children , as by an haereditary right , yet then wee see , it was sometimes for the sinns of men , broken off , and interrupted . Take for instance Eli , and his house . † † 1 Sam. 2. 30. 31. The Lord God ●f Israel had sayd , that his house , & the house of his father should walk before him for ever : but now ( the L : saith ) is shall not be ; for them that honour me , I will honour , and they that dispise me , shal be despised . Behold the dayes shall come , that I will cut off the arm of thy fathers house , &c. then he addes , and I will stir me vp a faithful Preist , that shall do according to myne hart , and according to my mynde , &c. which was also especially accomplished in Salomons dayes , when ver. 35. the Preisthood was translated from Abiathar to Zadock . 1 King . 2. 35. To the same purpose tends that which the Prophets , Ezechiel & Hose threaten , and denounce , against other Preists of Israel , for their idolatrie and other iniquities . * * Ezec. 44. 10. 13. The Levites , ( sayth the Lord ) which went back from me , when Israel went astray , shall bear their iniquity : and they shall not come neare vno me to do the office of the Preist vnto me , &c. And againe by Hose : †‘ †‘ Hos. 4. 6 7. bycause thou hast refused knowledge , I wil also refuse thee , that thou shalt be no Preist to mee : and seing thou hast forgotten the Law of thy God , I will also forget thy children . I will change their glory into shame . For the shutting vp of this point ; the Lord Iesus himself comming to repayr the decayed places of Sion , & to enlarge the walles of Ierusalem , did not chuse his Apostles out of the nuber of the Preists , & other ordinary Teachers , but els where They in deed supposed ( as the Prelates , & Preists now do ) that the Lord could neyther propagate , nor mainteyn his Church but by them , bycause they were † † Math. 3. 9. the children of Abraham : but Iohn Baptist tells them , & all other with than , that hang vpon the same , or like lyne of personall succession , which they did , that except they prevent the Lords wrath , and bring forth fruits worthy amendement of life , he will with the ax of his wrath hew them down , & cast them as vnfruitfull trees into the fyre : raysing vp vnto Abraham seed , and children of the very stones .

If now the Lord haue thus ever and anon , from the beginning of the world , chaunged the course , and current of succession , for these sinns , namely , murther , idolatry , persequution , profanenes , and the like ; is it possible that the stream should still run , by the Lords appointment , without stop , or change , for so many hundred yeares , in the Romish Church , where these , and all other sinns , and iniquities haue abounded ? and where they all , as so many members compact together , make the man of sum complete ? Is the Lord l●s●● zealous now a dayes , then in times past of the honour of his name , and ordinances ? Or hath S. Peter procured some Charter of impunity for his successours the Popes of Rome , what impieties soever they haue faln , or can fall into ? Or doth this man think by any plea he can make for them to hold them in possession of that right which they haue so notoriously forfeyted so many wayes , and for so many yeres , and whereof the word of God hath so evidently disseyzed them ? For conclusion of this particular , the Apostle Paul foretelling the generall * * 2 Thes. 2. 3. 4. apostasy of that man of sin , the child of perdition , advancing himself above all that is called God , or is worshipped , addeth that the Lord will destroy him with the spirit of his mouth . In which words we are to observe , first , the vers. 8. vniversality of the apostasie , advancing it self above all that is called God ; and secondly , the manner of restauration of the Church , which is to be by the Lord , & the spirit of his mouth , where if it were to be by the ministers of Antichrists making , or the Popes calling , the● should the man of sinne consume himself . Ioyn with this scripture another of the same nature , wherein the H : Ghost , speaking by the mouth of Iohn , of the same generall apostacy , foretells , how God would rayse up his “ “ Rev: 11. 3. 7. two witnesses , which should prophesy against the beast , which came out of the bottomelesse pit , and against all the abhominations of Antichrist : whereas , by the doctrine of succession , no witnesses should be raysed up against Antichrist but by himself .

Now by these scriptures , & instances it appears , that the stream of succession hath not run so currantly from the dayes of Adam hitherto , as Mr B : praetendeth , but that it hath sundry tymes been stopped , and turned by , & that most specially in the Romish apostasy .

The thing I purpose in the next place is , to prosequute certayn Arguments of Mr Smythes , and the rather bycause himself hath in a measure forsaken this truth with others ( adding also some others vnto them ) to prove , that the ministery ( and so other ▪ the holy things of God , ) is not tyed by Christ to the succession of office , or order , but of faith . The Arguments I will take vp as Mr Bernard together with their answers layes them downe in his 2. book . Pag: 186. 187. 188 &c.

Of the first Argument , I have spoken in another place . The 2. is , that if Christs ministeriall power be by succession , to the Pope , Bishops , or Praesbytery , then the Ministery of Rome is a true Ministery ▪ Mr Bern : answer is , that he meanes true succession , which is both personall , and hath with it a true office , true doctrine , true sacraments , and prayer , about which Christs true ministers are exercised : but for the Romish Ministery it is idolatry , and superstition , and the men appointed there to ordeyned sacrifising Preists .

This answer of yours Mr B. puts me in mind of a practise of children , who when they have a long while busyed themselves in drawing the best formes , and figures they can in dust , and ashes , do at the last with one dash of their hand deface all , & vndo , what they haue formerly done . And that this childish dealing you use , no reader that considers the quaestion in hand , can be ignorant of .

The quaestion then between him , & me , is not of such a succession personall , as hath joyned with it succession in a true office , true doctrine , true sacraments , & prayer , wherin the minister is in any measure faithfully exercised : but generally , whether succession of persons be of such absolute necessity , as that no minister can in any case be made but by a minister , & more specially , whither the first ministers of the reformed Ch: , or of such , as come out of the confusion of Antichrist , must of necessity be ordeyned by the Pope , & his Bishops , or minister by vertue of their ordination so received . And that this succession by , & from the Romish ministery , is that Mr Ber: pleads for , his writings manifest : as first , that , as in all the Apostles time the Ministery 2. ●ok op●g 185. 186. was by succession ; ministers , as it were , begetting Ministers by ordination , so after their tyme the like succession hath been kept from tyme to tyme , Bishop after Bishop , and Ministers ordeyned by them : which the Catalogue of them , & stories of tymes , on which we must rely , where the script : cease to make further relation , do witnesse : for the continuation of which succession to the worlds end , he alledgeth Math. 28. 20. odiously perverting to the Pope , and his shavelings , the promise , which Christ there made , to be with his Apostles , & other faithfull ministers , teaching the things , which he had commanded , and dispensing his other ordinances accordingly . Answerable vnto which , is his other saying ( in which , his termes , and meaning do well suit ) that Church-men ever ordeyned Ministers , & not the lay people . To this also let his inference be added in another place pag. 311. that , if we receive , and hold our baptism from Rome , why not our ordination also ? And in his former book Pag: 144. most clearly condemning our Ministers for being made by such , as are no Ministers : contrary to the constant practise of the Church of God from the dayes of Adam hitherto . And agayn , that this custome of ordeyning Ministers did continue in the times following the Apostles tymes ( as before it had done ) in all the Churches of Christendom , as ecclesiasticall wryters do make mention : and so through pure , & impure Churches ▪ and that , God in the last reformation of his Church , would not break this order ; but choose men , who were Bishops ordeyned even in the Popish Church , so that they might ordeyn fit persons afterwards . And this he tels the Reader he speaks of the Church of England , as in deed he may wel ; for other Ch: departed from Rome , would be loath to joyn in his plea. And lastly , he chargeth vs with great praesumption , for daring to break this order of God , continued five thowsand , and six hundred years . Now what can be more vayne ? The very poynt which MR. BERNARD is to prove , and from which he brings his historicall narration from Adam to this day , is , that God hath continued the course of succession in the Romish Ministery , and that from , and by it successively , the Ministery in England hath been , and is at this day , continued . And yet in his answer to Mr Smyth , he is driven to affirm , that he hath no reference at all to the Romish Ministery , which he accounts Idolatry , and superstition : but meanes such a personal succession , as hath ioyned with it a true office , true doctrine , and the like . He will haue succession continued from the dayes of Adam hitherto ; and this to haue been the order of God for five thowsand , and six hundred yeres : and that he chose Bishops ordeyned in the Popish Church , to ordeyn fit persons in the Church of England : and yet Mr Smith is to know he speaks not at all of the succession in the Romish Ministery , which is idolatry , and superstition .

Now that the more simple reader may not loose himself in this mans maze , and that he may the better know the state of the quaestion , and judge of it , I will here interpose some few thinges , touching succession and ordination accordingly .

First then wee acknowledge , that in the right and orderly state of things , no Ministers are to be ordeyned , but by Ministers , the latter by the former in the Churches , where they are , and over which the holy Ghost hath set them . And so the Apostles being generall , and extraordinary men ( vnto whom the Evangelists also were joyned for assistance to “ “ ● Cor: 3 ▪ 6. Tit: 1. 5. water where they planted , and to finish the works , by them begun ) as they had † † ● Cor: ● . 28. Act: 15 36. 1 Cor. 4. 17. the care of all the Churches committed vnto them , and were charged with them , so were they also to * * Act. 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5 ordeyn the Elders and Bishops in them , and the people bound to wayt theyr comming for that purpose , as Mr Ber. truly affirmeth : as were also these Bishops , or Elders to ordeyn others in the Churches over which they were set , & so others after them in the order appoynted by Christ in his Apostles ; with whom also he promised to be alwayes till the worlds end , in this and the like their holy ministrations . But is the consequence good , that , bycause Math. 28. 20. the Apostles and Evangelists were to ordeyn Elders in the Churches by Commission from Christ , and that the people converted from Indaism , or Paganism , were to wayt till they came to ordeyn them theyr ministers , therefore the Pope , and Prelates vnder him have commission from Christ to ordeyn his priests and that the people converted from Antichristianism are to wayt 〈◊〉 they come to ordeyn them their Ministers , or till they send them such as they have alwayes in store ordeyned to their hands ? or that bycause the Apostles , and Evangelists had Christs promise to be with them alwayes , that therefore the Pope , Cardinalls , Lord Bishops , and Lord Suffragans have interest in the same promise . It might aswell be concluded , that as the Lords people were bound to obey , and submit vnto the former in their times , so are they now to submit vnto , and obey the Pope , and his vnderlings . And yet is this the very mark Mr Bernard aymes at in his long drawn historicall narration : this is the force of his argument , and his manner of arguing . If this lyne hold from Peter to the Pope , and from the Pope to his clergy , and so successively to the Ministery of England , then it stands vpright ; if it break , then doth the ministery of England ▪ ( which as Mr Bernard truely , & honestly confesseth is thus raysed ) fall flat to the ground : as indeed it doth according to the foretelling of the Angel , * * Rev. 14. ● . it is fallen , it is fallen , Babylon the great City .

But here it wil be demaunded of me , how the Lords people comming out of Babylon , separating from Rome , are to obteyn , and enjoy Ministers . Surely one of these three wayes . Eyther by the extaordinary , immediate , or miraculous designation of God ; or by succession ; or by the same peoples choise , or appointment , to which they are to minister . To expect ministers by the first meanes were fancy ▪ and presumption : so that by one of the two other wayes they must come necessarily . The power of the holy things of God , & so specially of erecting the minstery , is eyther tyed to the order of office , & so to the order of to the Popeship , & Praelacy under it , or els to the faith of the people of God forsaking Babylon , & joyning together in the covenant of Abraham , & fellowship of the gospel . The former of these though Mr B : be driven to plead it in the proof of succession , yet in the defence of it , he is forced to disclaym , & disavow : yeelding the Romish Ministery to be Idolatry , and superstition , and that he speaks of such a succession , as requires with it a true office , true doctrine , true sacraments , and prayer . pag. 188. and agayn that he meanes by succession a continuance of Gods ordinance by persons elected thereto from tyme to tyme , being of spirituall kindred by the fayth of doctrine , by which the ordinance is vpheld , and true succession mainteyned . pag 190. With which graunt of his I might rest , as indeed wherein he yeeldeth the whole cause , and cutts off , as it were , with his own hands , the cord of true succession in the Ch: of Rome ; making it to fayl , when the truth of doctrine , and of election fayled in the same Ch: . But bycause it is so common a thing with him , to say , and vnsay ▪ and to say agayn the same things , eyther forgetting himself , or thinking others forgets , or bycause he would say something to every thing , though never so contrary both to the truth , and himself in another place , I will presse Mr Smythes other Arguments . The third of which is , that by the doctrine of succession men are bound absolutely to sin , in joyning to the sinns of the Minister . This is sayth Mr B : to take vnproved a principle of Brownism to overthrow a truth , namely , that a man cannot receive the holy things of God , but he must needs sin with others .

And is it so indeed ? Doe not the scriptures every where teach men to * * Rom: 16 17. Gal: 1. ● . 1 Tim: 6. 3. 4. 5. Tit: 3. 10 11. avoyd , reiect , and hold accursed , false teachers , haeretiques , and idolaters ? and † † 1 Tim: 5. 18. 2 Ioh: 10. 11. Rev 1● . 4. not to partake in the sinne of others , eyther by practising them , or giving consent , or countenance vnto them ? Wherevpon it followeth , that the doctrine , which binds the Ministery , and other holy things of God vnto succession , and thereby to partake with haeretiques , and false teachers , or at least with such in their ministration , as have received the power , and authority by which they minister from the Pope , and his Praelacy , bynds men to sinne in joyning with the sinns of the Ministers .

Of the Iewish Church & Preisthood ( which Mr Ber●here objects ) I haue spoken formerly , and do now adde , that , as no man is now so tyed to any Church , or Ministery in the world , as was every faythfull person in the world then to that one temple , and Preisthood at Ierusalem , so neyther could any man then , without sinn , communicate with an ●aereticall , or idolatrous Preist , especially ministring in a false office , and by the like calling , and commission , which the Ministers both in Rome , and England doe .

In the 4. Argument Mr Ber: deales dishonestly . Mr Smiths inference vpon the doctrine of succession , is , that then the Lord hath made the Ministers Lords over the Church , so that the Church cannot have or enjoy any of the Lords ordinances , or holy things , except they will consent vnto them ; for the holy things are in their power . Now Mr Ber. onely trifles about the word Lord , and passeth by the substance of the inference which is most sound vpon the doctrine . For if the Lords ordinances and holy things be tyed to the Ministers , then without their consent there can be no vse of them . And so where Ministers eyther are not , or not willing to communicate them , there can be no Church , no election of Ministers , no keyes of the kingdom , and so no salvation : as I have formerly manifested vpon Math. 16. 19.

The sum of Mr Smithes 5. Argument is , that then the Pope may excommunicate the whole Church vniversall ; the Bishops their whole Dioceses , and Provinces : and the Praesbytery the particular Church whereof it is . Your answer Mr Bernard , is , that this were to do the Pope a great favour to prove him to have an vniversall power , &c. and 2. that by this sequell of Mr Smythes , this absurdity would follow , that the Bishop might cast out the Church , out of the Church .

It is you that do the Pope this great favour , though you would not own it . For if the Ministery make the Church , and that Rome be a true Church , then must the ministery of Rome be true , specially of the Pope , from which the other is derived as from the head .

Agayn , if the ordination by the Bishops in the impure Church of Rome be the Lords order , as you expresly affirm p. 145. of your former book , then must the Popes vniversall power , by which the Bishops doe vniversally ordeyn , be the power of the Lord which from him he hath received for that purpose . They which hold , that the power of the keyes was given first & immediately to the Apostle Peter , & so to the Popes of Rome his successours , they hold that the Pope may excommunicate the whole Church : so they which hold the Bishop , or his substitute to be meant , where Christ sayth , tell the Church , they must necessarily hold , that the Bishop or his substitute may excommunicate his whole Province , or Dioces ; and so of them which hold the Praesbytery to be the Ch: there spoken of , for the particular assembly over which it is . The Church there meant may excommunicate any brother , or brethren ( whom , or how many soever ) that refuse to hear her : as the Church of Corinth , to whom 1 Cor. 1. 2. & ● . 1● . 13 Paul writ might judge all them which were within , and not without , & vnder the Lords iudgement

The substance of the seventh , & last objection , is , ( for the 6. hath no weight in it ) that the doctrine of succession overthrowes it self , and the Reason is , bycause one POPE doth not make another by ordination whyles he lives , but the Cardinals do by Election make the new Pope after the death of the former . So that the Pope receiving his ministeriall power from the Cardinals , cannot give it to them , and so to the rest of the Clergy in Rome , and England , neyther can it descend from Christ through the Apostles , and so through him to the other inferiour ministers , but as in a chayn if the highest link be broken , the rest which hang vpon it must needs fall : So if there be a breach of this chayn of succession from the Apostles to the ministery of Rome , and of England ( which descends of it lineally ) in the highest link , the Pope , all the rest of the chayn that hangs vpon it , except it be otherwise vpheld , must needs fall flat vpon the ground . It is true which Mr Ber: answers that election , and succession by ordination may stand together in the ministery , but in this case it cannot , except the Pope should by the election of the Cardinalls , or others , ordeyn his succession whilest himselfe survived . Now in this last answer Mr B : challengeth his adversary to be wilde in wandering , and to have lost his quaestion , in concluding that the doctrine of succession is a false doctrine , where he should prove that Christs power is not given to the principall members . But this challenge is both vnjust , & vnadvised . Vnjust , bycause succession from the popish Church , and Clergy is made by M : Ber: in his former book the foundation of the ministery of England , and so of the Church : the Church by his affirmation being made by the ministers , and the Ministers by such Bishops pag: 145 as were ordeyned in the popish Church . Vnadvised bycause these two poynts , do depend ech vpon other necessarily . For if Christs power be tyed to the officers whether principall , or inferiour , then must it come to the ministery , and Church of England by succession : if it come not by succession from , or by the Pope , and his Clergy , then must it come by the same succession of fayth , & doctrine vnto the children of Abraham , two or three , or more faithfull persons joyned together in the covenant , and fellowship of the gospel . And for the quaestion in Mr Bernards own words ( remitting the Reader to such places as prove , that a company of faythfull people in the covenant of the gospell , though without officers are a visible Church , that they haue immediate right to the holy things of God ; and that the keyes for bynding , and loosing were given to Peters confession ) I will adde onely one Argument , and so proceed .

It hath been sundry tymes observed , and proved by the “ “ Num: 16. 9 & 1● . 7. 2 Chr: 35. ● . Ezech: 44. 11. Math. ●0 . 2● . 26. 27. 2 Cor: 4. 5. Rom: 15. 3● . scriptures , that the officers of the Church , are the servants of the Ch: and their office a service of the Lord , and of his Church . Wherevpon it followeth necessarily , that what power the officers have , the body of the Church hath first , and before them , the very light of nature , & common sense teaching it , that what power , or authority soever the the servants of any body , or persons have , the body or persons whose servants they are , must have it first , and they by them . And for this purpose let it be further observed , that no power at all came vnto the Church of the Iewes by the Levites : not the vse of the sacrament of circumcision ; no nor of the very sacrifices : which were offered by the first born in the family , and that even after the peoples comming out of Egypt vnder the hand of Moses , till Levi was called to the Preisthood . Ex. 13. 2. & 24. ● .

I proceed . If the Ministery of the reformed Churches must be by succession , or ordination by Popish Bishops , then must the same office of Ministery be continued from the one Church to the other : as indeed it was withall the Ministers of the Church of England at the first ; who without any new eyther calling , or ordination ( which depends vpon it ) continued their office , and place formerly received ; there being onely a reformation of some of the grossest evills , like the healing of Iobs soars , as Mr B. speaketh : as the office of Iustice-ship , or the like in the common wealth , may be continued the same in the same persons individually , though by edict of Parliament , or other superiour power , there be a surceasing of some mayn act of it .

Further to ty the Ministery thus to succession , is to ty the Lords sheep to submit to no other sheepheards but such as the wolves haue appointed . And if a company of Gods people in Rome , or Spayn , should come out of Babylon , and no consecrated Preist amongst them , they must , by this doctrine , enjoy no Ministers , but such as the Romish wolves will ordeyn , & do , according to their Popish , & prophane order .

To these things I might also adde , that look what power any of the Popes Clergy receive from him , the same he takes from them & deprives them of , where they withdrew their obedience , or separate from that Church : as also that the ordinations in Rome , by their own Canons , are very nulli●yes , and many the the like exceptions pleaded by learned protestants against the Romish preisthood , and this Romish doctrine of succession : but that which hath been spoken is sufficient in the generall , and I hasten to the third and last meanes of the three , by which Gods people after Antichrists defection are to injoy the ministery , and other of Christs ordinances .

And for our better proceeding herein , I will first consider , what ordination is : and 2. how far the brethren may goe by the scriptures , and the necessary consequences drawn from them , in this and the like cases , in the first planting of Churches , or in the reducing of them into order , , in or after some generall confusion . The Prelates , and those which levell by their lyne do highly advance ordination , and far above the administration of the word , Bishop Barl. ser: b 〈…〉 e the King . sacraments , and prayer : making it , and the power of excommunication the two incommunicable prerogatives of a Bishop in their vnderstanding above an ordinary minister : But surely herein these cheif ministers do not succeed the cheif ministers , the Apostles , except as darknes succeeds light , and Antichrists confusion Christs order . Where the Apostles were sent out by Christ , there was no mention of ordination ; their charge was to † † Math. 28. 20 go teach all nations , and baptize them : and that the Apostles accounted preaching their principall work , and after it baptism , & prayer the scriptures " A●t. 6. 4. 1. Cor. 1 17. manifest . And if ordination had been in those dayes so pryme a work , surely Paul would rather haue tarryed in Crete himself to have ordeyned Elders there , and haue sent Titus an inferiour officer T it 1. 5. about that inferiour work of preaching , then haue gone himself about that , leaving Titus for the other .

But bycause Mr Bernard ( with whom I deal ) when he writes most advisedly , preferrs * * pag. 137. ●●●st book . preaching to the first place , and the administration of the sacraments , and prayer to the next , passing by ordination as not worthy the naming amongst these principall works , I wil therefore leave it to be honoured by them , whom it most honoureth , and for whose ease , and profit it best serveth , and will consider in what place he setteth it .

He then pleading , that as well the ordination ; as the baptism received 2. book p. 311. in Rome is to be held , makes ordination & the calling of the Ministers all one . Wherein as he vnfitly compares together things not to be compared , to wit , baptism into the name of the true God , & ordination , into a false office ( except he hold a masse-preisthood a true office ) so doth he vnadvisedly confound a part with the whole , yea the last , and least part , as ordination is : and which doth indeed depend vpon the peoples lawfull election , as an effect vpon the cause , by vertue of which it is justly administred , & may be thus described , or considered of vs : as the admission of , or putting into possession , a person lawfully elected , into , or of a true Office of Ministery . For example , the Maior , Baylife , or other cheif officer in a priviledged City , or Corporation , is chosen by the people to his office , but withall must be entred , and inaugurated with some solemn ceremony , as the giving of the Cities keyes , or sword , into his hand , or the like , by his praedecessour . So is it with the Ministers , the officers of this spirituall corporation the Church , the right vnto their offices they have by election , the possession of them by ordination , with the ceremony of imposition of hands . The Apostle Peter , advertising the * * Act. 1. 15. 16. 21. 22. 26. disciples , or brethren that one ( so fitted as is there noted ) was to be made in the room of Iudas , a witnesse with the eleven Apostles , of the resurrection of Christ , ( when two were by them praesented , such as were fit , and by them so deemed ) did , with the rest praesent them two , and none other , to the Lord , that he by the immediate direction of the lot might shew , whether of them two he had chosen . In like maner “ “ Ch. 6. 2. 3. 5. 6. the twelve being to institute the office of Deaconry in the Ch: at Ierusalem , called the multitude of the disciples together , and informed them what manner of persons they were to chuse : which choise being made by the brethren accordingly , and they so chosen praesented to the Apostles , they forthwith ordeyned them , by vertue of the election so made by the brethren . To these ad , that the Apostles * * Act. 13 ▪ 2. & 14. 23. PAUL , & BARNABAS ( being therevnto called by the H. Ghost ) did passe from Church to Church , and from place to place , and in every Church , where they came , did ordeyn them Elders by the peoples election , signified by their lifting vp of hands , as the word is , and as the vse was in popular elections , throughout those countries . Now the Apostles were in a manner straungers vnto them , comming as it were to one place over night , and ready to depart the next morning , or at least tarrying a very small whyle in every Church , as doth appear , both by the course of the story , & by the many severall places they passed to , & fro , & those some of them distant one from another a great space , both by sea , and land . So that neyther the liberty of the very Apostles was so great in ordeyning , as was the peoples in chusing : neither were they to ordeyn but such as the other choose , nor but to ordeyn them , except just exception were against them : neyther was their ordination so much as the others election , no more then possession is so much as right : neyther did the Apostles in their ordination rely so much vpon their own as vpon the peoples knowledge , and experience of the men , which were to be called into office .

Besides these things , though it appear that * * Act. 13. 1. 2. 3. 1 Tim. 4. 14 & 2. 1. 6. Act. 14 23. Paul , & Barnabas were ordeyned by laying on of hands , to that speciall work appointed them by the H. Ghost , and that the Euangelists were so ordeyned , and so the Bishops , or Elders in the Churches by the Apostles , and Euangelists , yet read we of no such solemnity performed by Christ upon his Apostles , when he called them ; nor by Peter , or the Apostles at the choise of Mathias , Act. 1. but being by the people praesented with Ioseph , and by the Lord singled out by lot , he was by a common consent counted with the eleven Apostles . Wherevpon also some reformed Churches haue thought that this solemn ordination The Churches in Scotland . by imposition of hands is of no such necessity , but that it might be vsed , or not vsed indifferently , and so have practised .

But the judgement , and plea ( when they deal with vs ) of the most forward men in the Land , in this case , I may not omit ; which is , that they renounce , & disclaym their ordination by the Prelates , and hold their Ministery by the peoples acceptation . Now if the acceptation of a mixt company vnder the Praelates government , ( as is the best parish assembly in the kingdom ) wherof the greatest part haue by the revealed will of God , no right to the covenant , ministery , or other holy things , be sufficient to make a minister , then much more the acceptation of the people with vs , being all of them joyntly , and every one of them severally , by the mercy of God , capable of the Lords ordinances .

These things , thus opened , I come in the next , and last place to manifest , what liberty the scriptures , just consequence , & good reason do allow the people for the reducing themselves into the order , and under the Ministery of Christ , after some generall cofusion , such as the Papacy was , and is .

And for this purpose I entreat the reader to recognize with me the points lately mentioned , and proved in the former part of the book , namely that * * pag. 125. 126. — 130. 131. a company of faithful people in the covenant of the Gospel are a Church , though without officers : that this Church hath interest in all the holy things of God within it self , and immediately vnder Christ the head , without any forreyn assistance : that in cases , † † pag. 142. 143. 144. a private person , or brother , in such a Church , may do a necessary work of an officer : & lastly , that † † pag. 149. 150. 151. the keyes of the kingdom were given to , and the Church to be built vpon the rock of Peters confession , Math. 16. And so I come to the point it self .

I do then acknowledge , that where there are already lawfull officers in a Church , by , and to which , others are called , there the former , vpon that election , are to ordeyn , and appoint the latter . The officers , being the ministers of the Church , are to exequute the determinations , and iudgements of the Church vnder the Lord : the Censures of deposition , and excommunication by pronouncing the sentence of iudgment , and by it , as by the sword of the spirit drawn out , cutting of the officer from his office , and the member from the bodie , and all communion with it : So are they to exequute the peoples election by pronouncing the person elect to his office , charging him with the faythfull execution of it , with imposition of hands , and prayer . And indeed ordination , in the calling of the ministers is properly the exequution of election .

But as in a civil corporation , or City , though the Maior , Baylif , or other cheif officer elect , be at his ●nterance , and inauguration , to receive at the hands of his praedecessour , the sword , or keyes of the City , or to have some other solemn Ceremony by him performed vnto him : yet if eyther there be no former , as at the first ; or that the former be dead , or vpon necessity absent , when his successour entereth , then is this Ceremony and work performed by some other the fittest instrument : neyther need that City borrow an officer of another City : neyther could he intermedle there , without vsurpation , though both the Corporations haue the same Charter , vnder the same King : so is it in this spirituall Corporation , and City of God , the Church : the former officers , if there be any in that particular congregation , are to ordeyn such as succeed : but if none be to be found , this Corporation is not to goe to the next to borrow an officer , or two , but may vse such fit persons , as shee hath , for that service so absolutely necessary : neither may the officers of an other Corporation do the acts of their office in that , except they be eyther Apostles , or Evangelists , and have generall charges : or rather except they will make themselues Popes : as indeed this exorbitant , and roving course makes as many vniversall Bishops , in respect of power , & so likewise of exequution , if there be occasion , as there are officers in all the Churches . But to come vnto the scriptures , it hath been formerly noted that the first born in the family , before the law , did perform the preists office : in whose place the Levites were afterwards substituted . Now as † † Exod: 29. 1. 2. 3 & . the Preists of the Levites did not enter vpon their office without solemn consecration , nor the ministers of the new testament vpon theirs , without solemn * * Act: 6. 6 & 14. 23. ordination or appoyntment , so neyther can it be conceived , that the first borne did “ “ Heb: 5. 4 take vnto themselues the honour to administer , without some solemnity performed to or vpon them , by their predecessours : & so we read , that when † † Gen: 27. ●7 . Isaak conveyed the blessing , and birthright to Iacob , he kissed him , as did * * : ch: 48 17. 18. 19 20. Iacob also lay his right vpon the head of Ephraim , when with the blessing he did transfer the birthright to him from Manasseth . But if the father of the family were suddainly taken away , or dyed before his first borne were capable of this ministration , then could he not thus solemnly resigne , or transmit to him the office , or work , but there must needs have been some interposition of another , if any solemn admission at all were required . To come lower . When † † Numb. 8. 6. 9. 10. &c 20. 21. the Levites were given , at the first , to the Lord , as a redemption of the first borne , for the service of the tabernacle , wee do find that the people did , by putting their hands vpon them , offer , and ordeyn them , as their shake offering , and gift vnto the Lord . But this liberty , which the people here vsed , by the Lords appoyntment , at the first , and when the first officers were consecrated in the Church , we do not read to have continued , or so to have been vsed in the consecration of the succeeding Levites ordinarily .

And as the Lord would have the people to vse this speciall liberty in the first institution , and consecration of the Levites in that Church , ( which notwithstanding they vsed not in the ordinary consecration of such Levites , as followed , when the Ch: was once furnished with officers ) so doth the holy Ghost give testimony of the same , or the like liberty vsed by them afterwards vpon a speciall occasion and in that general confusion , which fel vpon the whole Church , when the Preists were slayn , and the Ark of God was taken by the Philistims .

It is then noted 1 Sam: 7. 1. that , vpon the † † 1 Sam: 6. 20. 21. message from the men of Bethshemesh , the men of Kirjath-i●arim came , and took vp the ark of the Lord , and brought it into the house of Abinadab in the hill ; and that they sanctified Eleazar his Sonne to keep the Ark of the Lord . And the very same word which is vsed Exod: 29. 1. where the Lord bids Moses consecrato the sonns of Aaron to be Preists , is vsed in this place where the men of Kirjath-i●arim sanctified Eleazar to keep the ark : sanctification , & consecration being all one in substance , and the word the same in the originall .

Lastly , the Apostle “ “ Gal: 1. 1. 2 8. 9 Paul writes to the Churches of Galatia to reject as accursed , such ministers whomsoever , as should preach otherwise , then they had already received : and the same Apostle wrytes to the Church at Colossus , to admonish * * Col: 4. 17. Archippus to take heed to his ministery : so did Iohn also to the Church of Ephesus , commending it for † † Rev. 1. 2. examining , and so consequently for silencing such , as pretended themselues Apostles and were not : as also to the Church of Thiatyra reproting it for “ “ Ch. 3. 20 suffering vnsilenced the false Prophetesse lezabell : now as these things did first , and principally concern the officers , who were in these , and all other thinges of the same nature to goe before , and governe the people : so were the people also in their places interessed in the same buesines , and charge : neyther could the officers sin , if they were or should haue been , corrupt , or negligent ) discharge the people of their duety in the things , which concerned them : but they were bound notwithstanding to see the commandements of the Apostles , and of the Lord Iesus by them , exequuted accordingly . And if the people be in cases , and when their officers fayl , thus solemnly to examine , admonish , silence , and suppresse their teachers , being faulty , and vnsound : then are they also by proportion , where officers faile , to elect , appoynt , set vp , and over themselues , such fit persons , as the Lord affoardeth them , for their furtherance of fayth , and salvation .

In the 2. place I do adde the conclusion vnto the praemises lately proved , that since the people of God going out of Babylon must come vnder the Lords order , and officers , and may not receive them by succession from the Pope , and his Clergy , nor are to expect them immediatly from heaven , therefore they themselves are to call and appoynt them for the Lords , and their owne service vnder him .

3. Vpon the former ground , that the Lords people must come out of Babylon , & build a new the Lords temple in Ierusalem , even themselves , their soules , and bodyes , for * * 1 Pet. 2. 5 a spirituall house , and that the Levites , and Preists of the Lord must minister there , it is necessary we consider by the scriptures what course hath been taken formerly for the furnishing of this house thus newly built , of the Church newly constituted , with officers , where they have wanted .

Wee do then read , that when that ancient , and mother Church of the Iewes was to be furnished with Officers , † † Numb. 5 9. 10. 11. — 16. 20. the Lord commaun●● ! Moses to assemble all the congregation of the children of Israell , and to direct them how to offer and freely to giue vnto the Lord for a shake-offering the Levites , for the first born , to execute the service of the Lord . Afterwards , when in the Apostles time , * * Act. 1. 15 &c. one was to he chosen in the room of Iudas , Peter standing vp in the middes of the disciples informed them in their liberty , and directed them in the use of it , for the praesenting of two , of which , the Lord would single out one to succeed him . Likewise in the same story , when Deacons were wanting in the Ch: at Ierusalem , † † Ch. 6. 2. 3. 5. the twelve calling the multitude of the disciples together , put them in mind of their liberty , and informed them in their duety for the chusing of so many as were needfull , so furnished as is there noted . The same course did Paul , and Barnabas afterwards direct Ch: 14. 23. the Churches amongst the Gentiles for the chusing of Elders in every City , where they came . Now if * * Rom: 15. 3. all things which are written before , be written for our learning , and for the learning of all the Churches , and people of God , why are not the people , and Churches of God , in all places to learne from hence their liberty , and duty , for the chusing of officers , where they are wanting ▪ having men therevnto fitted by the Lord . And what hindereth but that the Church , the multitude , the Disciples ( call them as you wil ) in the fellowship , and covenant of the gospell , may be as clearely informed in their duety , and as effectually exhorted to the vse of their liberty by the writings of the Prophets , and Apostles , as by their speaches . The Apostle , wryting to the Church of Corinth about the censuring of the incestuous man , though he were “ “ 1 Cor: 5. 3. absent in body , yet was present in spirit , which was , in effect , all one , and as avaylable to that purpose as his bodily presence should have been : so though Moses and Peter , and Paul , be bodily absent , yet are they in their wrytings , present in spirit , after a sort , nay God himself in spirit is present in them , with his Churches , & people , both for their warrant , direction , and comfort .

Though it be true then which M B : sayth that the people wayted first book 145. 2. book 296 till the Apostles came ; and that they did not elect officers but vpon their exhortation : yet must it also be considered that Apostles do now come in their writings , as there they did in corporall presence , and that they exhort as fully in them now , as they did in speach then . Besides there are now no Apostles vpon earth , nor other Church officers having † † 2 Cor. 11. 28. the care of all the Churches , in the world as the Apostles had : nor that are extraordinarily and miraculously endewed with all giftes especially with the gift of all tongues , as the Apostles were ; nor that have the like generall commision Act. 2. 1. 3. 4. &c. Mat. 28. to teach all nations , as they had . The ordinary officers , which the Apostles , and Evangelists left in the Churches , and for the choyse of whom ▪ they left order to the worlds end were such Elders or Byshops as were assigned , and fixed to such particular flockes as they were to feed , vnder that cheif sheepheard , and great Bishop Iesus Christ . Besides , if the Churches , or people should wayt now , as M Ber. would have them till the Bishops of Rome , or England came to them , as the Apostles did to the Churches in their time , to exhort them to chuse officers , and to ordeyn them for them , they might languish vnder a wan hope , & wayt till their eyes fayled in their heads .

Wherevpon then I do conclude , that if the Church without officers may elect , it may also ordeyn officers ▪ if it have the power and commission of Christ for the one , and that the greater , it hath it also for the other , which is the lesse . If it haue officers , it must vse them as hands to put the persons by ordination into that office , to which they haue right by election : but if it want officers , it may , and must vse other the fittest instruments it hath : as in the naturall body , if men want hands , or be deprived of the vse of them , they do for their present necessity vse their teeth , or feet , or other fittest parts of the body , for the busynes possible to be done by them .

Lastly if the Lord should rayse vp in America , or the like place , a company of faythfull men , and women , ( which of stones should become children to Abraham ) by the reading of the scriptures , or by some godly mens writings , or ( which is most like ) by the holy instructions , and exhortations of some merchants , or travaylers , how , or by what meanes should they come by Ministers ? Must they be sent out of Europe unto them ? And if they were they would be barbari●ns ech to others , neyther vnderstanding others 1 Cor. 14. 11. language . But what to do hath the Pope of Rome , or the Bishops in England , or the Praesbytery in Germany , or France to appoynt them in America Ministers ? It is evident that such an assembly , as I speak of , having received the gospel , haue received the keyes of the kingdome , and the power of Christ : and being joyned in this fellowship of the gospell , haue the joynt vse of the keyes , & power of Christ : & being within the covenaunt of Abraham , are the Ch: of God : & so haue power to choose , and appoynt their own Ministers from within themselves . Now because these things wil be better taken at other mens hands , then at ours , yea it may be with many , through praejudice , their very authority wil sway more then our Arguments though never so rightly grounded vpon the scriptures , & common reason , I wil therefore here crave leave to bring in a few men of singular note both at home , & abroad , to shew their judgments in the case in hand .

And I will first bring in one , of our own nation , of great account ( and that worthily ) with al that fear God , how ever he were against vs in our practise . The man is Mr Perkins . He then writing about ordination , & succession , in his Commentary vpon the Epistle to Gal: ch: 1. ver: 11. gives this testimony : that , if in Turky , or America , or elswhere , the gospel should be received of men , by the counsel , & perswasion of private persons , they should not need to send into Europe for consecrated Ministers , but had power to choose their own Ministers from within themselves : & the Reasons of this he renders in the same place , bycause where God gives the word , he gives the power also . And I do desire especially his Reason may be observed : which is , that , where God gives the word , there he gives the power also . Wherevpon it followes , that any other assembly whether in America , or Europe , separating themselves from Idolatry , whether Heathenish , or Antichristian , & receiving the gospell of Christ , do with the gospel receive the power also : & so may choose their ministers within themselves : & need not send to any other place , no not to the next parish for consecrated Ministers .

In the 2. place I wil alledg one of greater note , and more ancient : and that is Philip Melancton : who , in his Answer to the ministers in Bohemia , which taught the incorrupt doctrine of the gospell , refutes the praetext of ordination to be taken from the Bishops , with that of Paul , * * Gal. 1. 8. if any teach another gospell , let him be an Athema ; adding also that onely the assembly where true doctrine soundeth is the Church : and that in it is the ministery of the gospell : in it are the keyes of the kingdom of heaven . Wherefore in that very assembly ( in eo ipso coetu ) there is the right of calling , and ordeyning the ministers of the gospell , bycause we must fly the enemyes of the gospell , as an Anathema . And besides ( sayth he ) if wee should desyre of them the ceremony of ordination , they would not giue it , except we would bind ourselves to renounce the true doctrine ; & other wicked bonds would they cast vpon vs . Neyther therefore ought the true Ch: to be without Pastors , without the keyes , without the voyce of the gospell , without forgivenes of ●inns , bycause the tyranny of the Bishops eyther drives away , or refuses to appoynt fit Ministers . And agayn , it is the confusion of order to seek sheepheards from the wolves . And lastly , this hath ever been the right of the true Church , to chuse , and call out of her own assembly fit Ministers of the gospel . Thus far h● .

In the third place Peter Martyr shall speak , who vpon the book of Iudges ch. 4. vers. 5. sayth thus : Touching the ecclesiasticall Ministery we have signified before , that it may not be committed to women , & that they are not fit for it . But now wee adde , that , in the planting of Churches anew , when men want , which should preach the gospell , a woman may perform that , at the first ; but so as when she hath taught any company , that some one man of the faythful be ordeyned , which may afterwards minister the sacraments , teach , and do the Pastours duety faithfully .

4. Zanchy ▪ vpon the fifth to the Ephesians , treating of Baptism propounds a quaestion of a Turk comming to the knowledge of Christ , and to sayth by reading the new Testament , and withall teaching his family , & converting it , and others to Christ ; and being in a countrey , whence he can not easily come to Christian Churches ; whether he may baptise them , whom he hath converted to Christ , he himself being vnbaptized ? He answers , I doubt not of ●● , but that he may , and withall provide , that he himself be baptized of one of the three converted by him . The Reason ( be gives ) 〈…〉 , bycause he is a Minister of the word extraordinarily stirred vp of Christ : & so , as such a Minister may , with the consent of that small Church , appoint one of the “ “ Symm●stam . communi●ants , and provide , that he be baptized by him .

Adde in the fifth place Tilenus , who being demaunded of the Earl of Lavall , from whom Calvin had his calling , answered , from the Church of Geneva , and from Farell , his praedecessour : who had also his from the people of Geneva ; who had right , and authority , to institute , and depose Ministers : which thing he also confirms by Cyprian : Ephes. 14.

The sixth , and last I will name is Sadeel who writing a treatise of purpose , touching the lawfull calling of Ministers , against such as agreed with the reformed Churches in the doctrine they taught , but excepted against them in this , that they had not their Ministers by ordinary succession : s●ewes , that amongst , and above other things the ecclesiastical Ministery of Rome is corrupted : & makes it a shamelesse thing , that any boasting of the pure knowledge of God , should obiect against them , that they did not draw the pure reformation of the ecclesiasticall Ministery out of the dr●gges of Popery . The first argument he vseth to justify the calling of their Ministers is , that they are called , chosen , and received of these assemblyes which do appear by manifest signes , and arguments to be true Churches ▪ as having the true doctrine of fayth , the pure administration of the sacraments , the right and sincere ●●vocation of Gods name , observing religiously the discipline instituted by Christ , and his Apostles : and lastly testifying by the duties of love , constancy of Martyrs , and reformation of the whole life , that they are by the great mercy of God , adopted into the number of the faythfull , as members of the Catholick Church : &c.

And thus much of the Ministery both yours Mr Ber: & ours : and more particularly to prove , that an assembly of faythful people separating themselves from Heathenish , or Antichristian idolatry , have right within themselves to call , and appoint their Ministers .

Now from this conclusion thus manifested do arise sundry others worthy the noting down , for the common controversy .

As first that such an assembly ( though without officers ) is a true I. visible Church , the kingdom of Christ , & City of God . And I suppose it needs no confirmation to any good conscience , that the choise of Church officers is a Church action , a mayn part of the administration of Christs kingdom , and a priviledge of that spirituall City the new Ierusalem : and that such an assembly hath the power of Christ , and from him authority , and commission : without which it were intollerable usurpation to praesume to choose his officers : especially the cheif officers in his kingdom , as are they which administer the word , & sacraments , of whom we principally entreat .

2. That the people have power to censure offenders : for they that II. haue power to elect , appoint , & set vp officers , they hav also power ( vpon just occasion ) to reject , depose , & put them down : & so are part of that Church , where officers are ; and the whole Church , where they are not ; of which Christ speaketh Math: 18. 17. where he sayth tell the Church . Besides , that the calling of officers , and censuring of offenders are the two mayn administrations of the kingdome of Christ , and so both of one nature .

3. And lastly that the brethren out of office , whether in a Church III. furnished with officers , or without them , are not mere private persons ; as you Mr Ber: and others , would make them , in the exercise of prophesy , calling of Ministers , and judging of offenders for scandalous sinns . Considering them in deed severally one by one , or in opposition to the publique officers , they may be called private persons : but take them joyntly , and in these and the like acts of their communion , and they are more then so : and as the Church is a publique body , so are they members of the body , and parts of the whole , and of the same publique nature with it : and not private parts , or members of the publique body : which were a senseles contradiction , and contrary to the rule in Reason . The whole , and all the partes ioyntly taken , are the same . When † † Act: 1. the brethren made choyce of Ioseph , and Mathyas to be presented : and afterwards of the “ “ ch: 6. seven Deacons : & after that of * * ch: 14. the Elders in every Church , did they make a private choise of publique officers ? or could they as private persons merely , make a publique choise ? When the Apostle Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth ( which you graunt to be the multitude , or † † first book Pag: 92. body of the Church about the censuring of the incestuous person ) did he will them to judge and censure him privately for his publique scandalous sin ? or could they as persons merely private passe a publique judgement ?

The thing then is , that when the Church is gathered or come together in one for the administration of the word , sacraments , censures and other exercises of religion , & parts of Gods worship , the officers , ( if there be any ) and brethren with them , are one & the same publique body , to be exercised in one and the same part of their publique communion : and to make the officers publick persons , and the brethren private in the communion , is to make a schisme in the Church : and to make the brethren part of the communion , in the administration of the word , & sacraments , prayer , singing of Psalmes , contribution , calling of officers , censuring of offenders , or other Church action whatsoever , private , and the officers publik is to make it schismatical , & them in it schismatiks .

Thus much of the 9. errour objected . The tenth foloweth , which is , that we say

Their worship is a false worship . M : B.

For answer vnto this assertion Mr B : refers vs to the end of this treatise ; and there then will wee attend for it : & yet somewhat will he say against it : & that is . First , that they worship no false God . 2. that they worship the true God with no false worship .

We charge you not with the worship of any false God , though Answ: wee shall see by , & by how , in one particular , you will defend your selves . But the thing you should have endeavoured , is , to prove that your divine-service-book framed by man , and by man imposed to be vsed , without addition or alteration , as the solemn worship of your Church , is that true , and spirituall manner of worshiping God , which he hath appointed : & with which he will be worshiped in spirit , & trueth . Of this you say little , or nothing , but bycause you seem to your self to say somewhat , wee will see what it is .

The word ( you say ) preached , is the true word : the sacraments true M : B. sacraments : the prayers we pray ( whether , conceived , or set , and stinted ) are such as may be warranted by the word : and agreable to the prescript form taught by our saviour Christ .

The word preached in popery , or in the most haereticall assembly Answ. in the world , is the true word , but the devises of men are not the true word , eyther with you or them . Yea the divels themselues preached the true word , when they affirmed , and published that Iesus was “ “ Luk 4 ▪ 41 & 8. 28 that Christ , the sonne of God , the most High : did they therefore perform vnto God true worship ? Of the sacraments I have spoken formerly , & have shewed that in the administration of them , they cannot be reputed true . It is the † † Eph: 5. 26. word of promise , that makes the sacraments , except then the parish assemblies , joyntly considered in their members , have right unto the spirituall promises of God , the sacraments administred in , and vnto them in that their estate , cannot so be accounted true sacraments .

For your prayers , I observe sundry things out of your own words , which I may not passe over : as first , that you speak not properly , no nor truely in saying you pray stinted prayers : for you read them , and who will say reading is praying ? you pray to God , but will you say you read to God ? or if you so say , and do , is it agreable eyther to his ordinance , or to common reason ? Mistake me not , as though I speak of inward prayer , or of the lifting vp of the hart : for I graunt a man may pray inwardly , or lift vp the heart to God , when he reads , or preaches , or sings , or receives the sacraments : of such prayer we neyther speak , nor can discern , but in our selves : our speach then being of the outward act , & ordinance of prayer , I do affirm , ( and so marvayl if all reasonable men concurre not with me ) that the ordinance of reading cannot be the ordinance of praying .

3. In your division of prayer , wherin you make some conceived , and some set and stinted , you graunt , that the prayers which are set , and stinted , are not conceived : wherein you do as much as graunt , that they are not of God , nor according to his will . The Apostle Iude directeth vs alwayes to * * Iude , 20. pray in the holy Ghost : and Paul teacheth , that † † Rom. ● . 26 we cannot pray as we ought , but as the spirit helpeth vs , and begetteth in vs sighs vnutterable : by the work of which spirit if our prayers be not conceived first in our hearts before they be brought forth in our lips , they are an vnnaturall , bastardly , and prophane byrth .

Lastly , if your stinted prayer be ( as you say ) agreable to the prescript forme of prayer taught by our saviour Christ , then must none other form of prayer be vsed but a stinted or set form : for none other form may be vsd but that which is agreable to the prescript form of Christ : since Christ hath sayd , “ “ Math. 6. 9. after this manner , pray .

Where you further add , that nothing is imposed or done by you for the worship of God , but the word read , and preached , and the sacraments , and prayer , I demaund of your first , in worship , or honour of whom are your holy dayes , bearing the names of S. Michaels , S. Peters , S. Iohns day , and the rest , imposed , and kept ? if in the honour of the Saynts & Angels , then are you not cleare ( as you make your selves ) from the worshipping of false Gods : neyther can you exempt your selves from the number of them , which * * Collos. 2. 18 ▪ 23. in voluntary religion worship Angels : if on the other side those dayes be appoynted and so kept holy , in the worship and honour of God , then do you ( and that by authority ) worship God by , and put holines in , other things , then the word read , & preached , and the sacraments , and prayer ; yea and other things , then ever came into the Lords heart to sanctify for his worship . And so the place Math. 15. 9. and other scriptures to that purpose are truely ( though you say , falsely ) alledged against you .

2. I do demaund of you , whether your Apocrypha books , namely that which is placed betwixt both testaments , causing the Iewes to think the new testament no better , then the fables which are ioyned to it , as a learned man of our nation hath observed , and the other book Mr Broughton . of Homilies , be enjoyned , and vsed as parts of Gods worship ? It is evident they are so held . And therefore it is , that a great portion of the former is preferred in the most solemn assemblyes before the canonicall scriptures ; and the reading of them , before the reading of the other , which they justle out of their place . And for the homilyes , they are enioyned ( and so vsed ) in stead of the preaching of the word which is the principall part of Gods worship : wherevpon it followeth that the Apocrypha wrytings of men , being preferred before one part of Gods worship , which is the reading of the Canonicall scriptures , and vsed in stead of an other part of Gods worship , yea and that the principall part , as is preaching , are imposed ( and so vsed ) as partes of Gods worship . So that it is not without good cause , M Ber: that M Ainsworth bids you prove the Apocrypha scriptures , and books of Homilies the true word of God . Nothing , you tel vs , is imposed and vsed amongst you for the worship of God , but the true word of God read , and preached , and the sacraments , and prayer : now these being imposed , and vsed for the worship of God , and being neyther the preaching of the word , nor the sacraments , nor prayer , must needs be the true word of God , & so you must prove them , or els the truth of your assertion is disproved .

Touching your discourse of the order of Gods worship before , in , and after the Apostles tyme , I observe ( to let passe other particulars ) your errour , in making the particular Synagogues of the Iewes , as the particular Churches are now . The Synagogues were not entyre Churches of themselves , but partes , or members of the nationall Ch: neyther could they haue vse of the most solemn parts of Gods worship , as were then the sacrifices : neyther could the cheif Ministers in the Church execute their office in them : but as they depended vpon the temple in Ierusalem , so were the people Deut. 12. 1 Chro. 22. to cary their offerings thither , and there to enjoy these ministrations . But particular congregations now do stand in no such dependancy ; they may enjoy within themselves the word , sacraments , and prayer , which are the most solemn services in the Ch: now , and so by consequence , all the rest . In deed it is with your parrish assemblyes , somewhat as it was with the Synagogues : they cannot enjoy the Ministers by , and from within themselves , nor have the vse of ecclesiasticall government , but must depend vpon their Ierusalems , the Bishops Chappels , and Consistories , for these their most solemn , and peculiar administrations .

Mr B : in his † † pag. 32● . 2. book to prove their worship true worship , pretends 3 distinct Arguments . The first , bycause it is according to the word of God . 2. bycause it is not forbidden in the scripture . 3. bycause it is after the M B : manner of the worship of the true Churches of God , set downe in the word .

An other man would have comprehended these three reasons in Answ: one : and so might Mr Ber. have done well enough , considering his confirmation of them : wherein he brings not so much as one scripture , or reason from scripture , to prove their prescript leyturgy by man devised , and imposed ( of which our mayn quaest on is ) to be according to the word of God : &c. onely in the 3. Argument he toucheth an obiection , which he calles a conceyt of ours , viz: that it quencheth the spirit : to which he gives a double answer . First , that it is agaynst known experience : 2. that it is the groundwork of Mr Smith ▪ casting of reading the scriptures in the assembly . Other things he speaks are not worth the insisting vpon ; let vs consider of his answers .

To the former , of them touching known experience , I do reply two things : first that the experience of supposed good in a course , or by meanes , not warrantable by the written word of God , is of all godly wise men to be suspected . 2 ▪ though the experience of good be certayn , yet must men take heed they honour not one thing for an other , as the means of that good : but they must put difference between that which is good , and that which is evill , in the same compound action . Many do avouch they have wrought in them much hatred of murder , treason , and the like evils , by a stage-play : others , that their devotion is much furthered by organ musick , and the chaunting of quiresters , yea by the prayers in a tongue they vnderstand not : all these will alledge their kn●wn experience . But to leave these things . The Apostle Paul 1 Cor. 14. testifyeth , that a man “ “ v : 4. speaking a strange language may ●di●y himself , though not the Church : and though he * * ● : 14. pray in a strange tongue without the vnderstanding , or benefit of the Church , yet that his spi●●t may pray . Might such a man therefore alledge his known experience for prayer in a strange tongue , contrary to the Apostles expresse inhibition ? neyther is it any justification of the service book in the vse we speak of , that people do in the reading of it , find by experience , their affections furthered : God may , & doth therein honor the simple , & honest affections of his people so far , as to receive the request of their heart , which he seeth in secret , covering in mercy the outward manner of putting vp the same , wherein they of ignorance , or infirmity , fayl .

And that these stinted and devised forms do quench the spirit of prayer , appears in that they deprive the Church , & minister of that liberty of the spirit of prayer , which God would haue the vse : stinting the Minister , yea all the Ministers in the kingdom , to the same measure of the spirit , not onely one with an other , but all of them with him , that is dead and rotten : and so stinting the spirit , which the Lord gives his Ministers , for his Church : and that so strictly , as till the stint be out , it may not suggest one thought or word otherwise ; or when it is out , one more , then is praescribed .

† † 1 Cor: 12 9. The manifestation of the spirit sayth the Apostle , is given to every man to profit withall . But in the reading of a praescript forme of prayer , there is not the manifestation of the spirit of the minister given him to profit the Church withall , but the manifestation of of the spirit of him , that devised , and penned the service book .

Now for M Ber: 2 Answ: namely that this conceipt of ours , saying that set prayer quencheth the spirit , is the groundwork of Mr Smithes casting of reading the scriptures in the assemblyes : first , he wrongeth M. Smyth , who doth not deny the reading of the scriptures in the assembly , but that the reading of them is properly a part of Gods worship . 2. Not our conceipt , but his own ill collection is the groundwork of his errour . Let the indifferent reader iudge , whither this consequence be good or no. Bycause the reading of the Apocrypha Prayers of the Bishops of Rome or of England , or their Chapleyns , for prayer , quencheth the spirit , or is not the true manner of prayer , which Christ hath left ; therefore the reading of the Canonicall scriptures penned by the Prophets , and Apostles , for reading , quencheth the spirit , and is no part of Gods worship .

Other observations M Ber: hath in his Answer , some nothing to the purpose , and others against himself : as for example : The Iewes in the ould Testament did meet together at set times commaunded by Pag: 327. the Lord : so did the Churches of Christ in the new , or the first day of the week . Ergo the Church of England doth wel in meeting at set times , yea holy times , not commaunded by the LORD , and that farre more solemnly , then on the first or LORDS day . 2. The Iewes had preaching every Lords day , in every Synagogue● : Pag: 328 329 therefore the Church of Engl: is in good estate , where there is no preaching , or as good as none , in one parish of ten , on the Lords day , or at other tymes . 3. The Iewish Church had singing of the Psalmes Pag: 328 of David , and of other propheticall men : and Christ himself did vse the same ; therefore the Church of England doth commendably in singing besides them , the Apocrypha songs of men , ful of errours , and vanities : as that † † The humble suit of a sinner . the Saints , and Angels in heaven do yet see the wounds , and blood of Christ : that a sinner * * Lamentation . need not confesse his life , bycause God knowes all things : & that he needs not repeat what he would have , bycause God knowes it before he askes : that “ “ Complaynt of a sinner . the scripture declares , there was no drop of blood in Christ , which he shed not for sinners : that † † 12 Artscles of fayth the spirit of Christ did after his buriall descend into the lower parts , to them that long were in darknes , the true light of their hearts : that * * Thanksgiving after the Lords supper . the sun in the firmament , the heavens , the earth , the sea , and all therein , yea the spirits beneath , were made for man to rule them .

But these things I passe over , and come to Mr B : second row of errours imputed to vs , which he judgeth sufficiently confuted in the former , as also to be so absurd , and false , as that the reading of them is sufficient to make them to be reiected .

The first of them is , that their congregations , as they stand , are all , and every one of them vncapable before God to chuse them Ministers , though I. they desire the meanes of salvation . Answ:

First let it here be noted , that Mr B : in this same book pag: 136 compared with pag. 138. makes it a rule for the Churches making a Minister , which must be kept , and from which she may not ●werve , that the guides , and governours of the Church do choose one from amongst others for the Ministery . If the guides , and governours must choose , how then apperteyns this to your congregations ? or how are they capable of this liberty ?

2. If they be capable of this liberty , why do they not vse it ? There is no congregation in the Land , which as a Church , chooseth their Minister : the Patron , and Bishop have seazed this liberty , & at their courtesie doth the congregation stand to receive eyther a preacher , or dumb preist : eyther a man of some conscience , or without all ●oar of God , or common honesty , whom they may not refuse . And if some parishes choose , it is not as Churches , but as Patrons . They have purchased the right of patronage with their money , and so vse it . But what is this to that spirituall liberty , and charter of Christs spirituall kingdome the Church ?

3. I deny that any congregation in the Land desires the means of salvation . I speak of the congregation , which is the whole consisting of the parts joyntly considered . The best parish hath too many in it that “ “ Ioh. 3. 19 love darknes rather then light , because their deeds are evill . This you find true in your own , Mr B. which you deem one of the best . And what right hath such an assembly to chuse a Minister , which hath no right to his ministrations of the sacraments , & other holy things ? Because the Lord Iesus hath given his power , and charter to his subjects for the choise of their officers whether many , or few , doth it therefore follow that the subjects of sinne , & Satan , professed traytours vnto his Majesty , have the same liberty ? or can his subjects combine with them that are , and allwayes have been such , in the vse , or rather in the vsurpation of that divine priviledge ? These things Mr B : you extenuate , bycause you want them , but the Churches of Christ accounts them pretious things : which they therefore labour to preserve pure .

Of your false worship something hath been before , & more shal be II. hereafter spoken ; and you do idely make it a distinct errour from the tenth .

That baptism is not administred into the fayth of Christ simply , but into III. the fayth of Bishops , & Church of England , which you make our 3. errour , Answ: do we not affirm , but leave it to him for justification , which not content with that in England received , hath found out since a 2. or 3. as he supposeth better then that was .

¶ Wee are to consider , baptism first , and principally in relation from GOD to vs , and as a seal of the covenant of grace into which he hath received vs : and secondarily in relation from vs to God , & as we restipulate , or promise agayn vnto him . In the first respect , it is effectuall vpon the very infants of the faithfull , though for the present wanting fayth : & in the 2. both may be , & is vpon such as erre in many great poynts of fayth : otherwise the baptism ministred by Iohn into the fayth of Christ which came after Act: 19. 4. him could not have been true vnto many which received it , being ignorant a long tyme after of the very kingdom , & office of Christ . To conclude then , since the essential form of institution is reteyned in the baptism in Engl: , & the doctrine of the Trinity sincerely held , into whose name all persons are baptized indefinitely , the particular errours in that Church touching the manner of worshiping God , or touching the vses or ends of baptism ( which are not of the essence ) cannot make the baptism in it self cease to be indefinite .

Of the 4. Errour imputed vnto vs , namely , that we hould your IIII. fayth , and repentance false , I say as of the third : and doubt not , but the personall fayth , and repentance of very many men , and women there , according to the measure of knowledge , and grace received , Answ: is true , and sincere before God : yea and so visibly declared , and manifested to be , before men , in respect of their persons : notwithstanding all the evilles in their Church Communion and ordinances .

Your 5. exception , viz: that your ministers convert men not as Pastours , V. but as teachers , is neyther our errour , nor assertion , but your owne misconstruction . This we hould , that the conversion of men with Answ: you is no way to be ascribed to your office , which it justifieth not : but to the truthes of God taught amongst you , by the special blessing of God vpon them , notwithstanding the other evills wherewith they are mingled inseparably amongst you .

To your demand what idoll you worship , bycause we affirm your VI. Church to stand in an adulterous estate ,

I do answer that you may stand in an adulterous estate , though Answ: you worship the true God onely , if you do it after a devised maner : as in deed you do in your government , ministery , service-book , and ceremonyes ; which being all properly matters of religion and not commanded by the Lord , are devises of your own against the 2. commaundement , which forbids nothing but idolatry .

Your 7. insimulation against vs , is , that wee cannot say certeynly VII . by any warrant of Gods word , that any of you have eyther fayth or feare of God . Wherein you consure vs , as having lost the feeling of former grace , and all true charity . Answ:

Mr Smyth in his Parallels shewes your fraud , & evil dealing with him in this case , whom you name in your margent . And I further adde , that I do not onely in the generall beleeve there are many such , but am so perswaded in the particular of many I know . Yet so to say certainly of any of you , I cannot , nor of our selves neyther , by the word of God . A man can say this onely of himself certaynly , bycause he onely knowes his own heart : but of others morally , & in the judgement of charity , which is according to outward appearance , and which may deceive .

The 8. & 9. errours imputed to us are , that we hold none of their 8. & 9. Ministers may be heard : & that it is not lawful to ioyn in prayer with any of them .

Sundry things Mr B. brings to evince the former position of errour , Answ: but not one of them so much as tending to prove it lawfull to partake in an office of Ministery eyther devised or vsurped with out lawfull calling , as that in Engl: hath been proved to be . It is not true then which he sayth , that we censure any for hearing the word : we do it for partaking in other mens sinns : and for receiving the 1 Tim: 5. 22. Rev: 18. 4. Chap: 14. 9 mark of the beast , in communicating with the Ministery of Antichrist ; as we assuredly know yours to be the office , & enterance into it ( notwithstanding the truthes taught , & personal graces in the teachers ) and for obstinacy in the same . It is true then , but not pertinent , which Mr B. sayth , that it is a good thing to hear the word : which who denyes but the Church of Engl: that silenceth the Preachers of it for her own , & the Popes inventions ? & that tyes the people to their unpreaching parish-preists , rather then permits them to hear a Preacher in the next parish ?

Other things obiected by him are els where handled : yet seemes Separists schism . Pag 153 154. it not amisse to ad something touching three scriptures by him produced , and appy'ed to his purpose : & they are Mat. 23. 1. 2. 3. Phil. 1. 15. 18. Tit. 3. 10. 11.

And first , there is not one of these scriptures that gives so much as any colour of countenance to the hearing of the word ministered in a false Church , devised office , and by vertue of an vnlawfull calling : or where any of these barres are put : and by all these we do beleeve & affirm our selves to be kept from hearing you . And this generall defence I do apply vnto the particulars , and first to the first : answering , that the Scribes , and Pharisees did neyther minister to any but the Lords people , the Israell of God , nor in an vnlawfull place , nor by an vnlawfull enterance , how corruptly soever they ministred : & for corrupt administrations , besides the constitution , in the true Church , we do not think the Ministers are eyther suddeynly , or vnorderly to be forsaken . To which I do ad further , first , that the words do sit in Moses chayr , and whatsoever they bid you do , may more strictly after the Greek be turned have sit in MOSES chayre , and have bidden you observe , that is , what you have heard of them formerly according to Moses , that do , and observe . But let the words be as they are , and that Christ speakes of the time to come , yet I see not how in them , the LORD eyther commaunds , or approves of his disciples hearing the Scribes , & Pharisees in their publique , and solemn administrations : but if he speak of them , then he may onely permit his DISCIPLES in respect of their weaknes , and being ( for the present ) too much addicted vnto them , so to hear them : or otherwise Christ may speak of such occasionall meetings and conferences , as passed ordinarily between the Pharisees , and his disciples : wherin what was of Moses , he willes them to receive from them , without praejudice of their persons : and so we do also will , and exhort the people with vs to receive , and reteyn whatsoever of God they hear from you , or any others vpon the like occasion . And considering , that in the first verse Christ spake vnto the Math. 9. 11. & 17. 10. multitude , and to his disciples , ( laying no more vpon his disciples in this case , then vpon the multitude ) and what respect the disciples had the Pharisees in , and how oft , and vsually they met , and medled together , it is very probable , that Christ , vpon this supposition , that the disciples would , or should hear , or meet with them , intends onely to provide , that the word of God may reteyn all due authority with his , in that confused estate wherein all things then stood : neyther commaunding , nor approving the hearing of them .

And considering what Christ himself testifieth of the Scribes , & Pharisees in that very chapter , that they * * v. 13. shut vp the kingdom● of heaven before men , neyther going in themselves , nor suffering them that would : † † ver. 15. making those of their profession two-fold more the children of hel , then themselves : what haeresies they taught touching justification by works , and perfect obedience to the whole law , how they made voyd the commaundements of God for their own traditions : how they denyed in Christ both the person , and office of the Messiah : blaspheming him in his doctrine as a deceiver of the people ; in his life as a glutton , and drinker of wyne ; and in his most glorious miracles as one that wrought them by the " Divel ; considering I say these things , it should be strange that Christ should eyther send his disciples to be taught by these blynde guides , or approve of their hearing them , him self also being the onely “ “ v : 8. 10. doctour and teacher of his Church . And this I would know of you Mr. B : & of others which vrge this scripture , as here you doe , whether you would like it well , or be content , that the disciples should hear any such corrupt , haereticall , and blasphemous teachers , as were the Scribes , and Pharis●es , and that denyed both the office , and person of Christ , as they did . You your selfe teach in this very † † 15 4. page that obstinate haeretiques are not to be heard : and such were the Pharisees yea so malitiously obstinate in their haeresies , as that the Lord Iesus insinuates agaynst them , the very * * Ma●he 12. 31. sin of blasphemy , agaynst the H : Ghost . If then you your selves would allow your disciples to hear teachers far lesse corrupt , and haereticall then were the Scribes , and Pharisees , to what purpose do you produce , and insist vpon Christs allowance of his disciples to hear them ? Is this fitly to alledge the scriptures , or not rather to take Gods name in them in vayn ;

To the other scripture , which is Phil: ● . 15. 16 answer hath been given both by others , and by my self formerly : and I now do ad , that those there spoken of , which preached Christ of envy , and strise , had corrupt inward affections so appearing to the Apostle by that speciall spirit of discerning which was in him , though not so discovered vnto others : but what makes this to such as minister in an office devised , and by an enterance found out by Antichrist , and so left to them , which think his mark a priveledge .

Touching your 3. Argument , which is from Tit ▪ 3. 10. 11. I do first observe your graunt , that private persons , and such as are not in office may reiect obstinate hare●iques , and so by consequence , that the thinges , which Paul writes to Timothy , and Titus touching the reformation of abuses , and censuring of offendours , do not concerne the officers onely , much lesse the cheif officers , but even the brethren also in their places . 2. There is no consequence in your Argument , that bycause obstinate haretiques may not be heard , ●herefore vsurpers may . You might as sensibly argue thus : bycause “ “ 1 Cor. 5. 11. 12. a fornicatour ▪ must not be eaten with , but iudged by the Church , therefore a covetous person , an idolatour ▪ a rayler may be eaten with , and must not be judged , contrary to the Apostles expresse writing .

In your 9. charge , namely that we hold it not lawful to ioyn in prayer with any of you , and in your comment vpon it , you do vs a double injury ; first in saying we approve not of any of your praying for vs : 2. That wee pray for you onely as wee do for Iewes , Turks , and Papists . For as wee are perswaded we fare the better for the prayers of many amongst you , and so both approve of , and desire the same ; so do wee also pray for many as for the Lords people in Babylon , and that they may at the Lords call , * * Revelat. 18. 2. 4 . go out of her : and that as they are holy in their persons , so they may be also in their Church communion , and ordinances .

Now for the poynt it self : & first for your Reason by which you would prove it erroneous . If ( say you ) wee hold any of you the children Mr B. of God , then our Saviour hath taught vs to ioyn with you in prayer , and to say , Our father with you .

You do wryte in another place of this book , that † † pag. 114. a man justly Answ. excommunicated , & cast out is to be held a brother , & so consequently a child of God ; for the brethren of the Saynts , are the children of God ; wherevpon if your Argument in this place , and Position in the former place , be good , it must be lawfull to joyn in prayer with a man justly excommunicated . I do answer then , that it is true you say , we ought to communicate both in prayer , & in al the other ordinances of God with all Gods children except they themselves hinder it , or put a barre : which we are perswaded they in the Church of Engl. do , in chusing rather the communion of all the profane rowt in the kingdom vnder the Prelates tyranny , then the communion of Saynts , which Christ hath established , vnder his government . So that it is not we which refuse them , but they vs , binding vs eyther to practise as we do , or to communicate in one spirituall body with all the graceles persons , and vile miscreants in the kingdom . For as he which hath hold of any one member of the naturall body i● not separated from the body , but holdeth the whole & every member by cohaerence , so he which is joyned in communion with one member of the Church , is by cohaerence joyned with the whole Church , and every member of it . We do professe it is not in neglect of the graces of God , which we acknowledge to be eminent in many , that we deny communion with them : but onely in conscience of the order which Christ hath set : & in testimony against the disorder , which Antichrist hath brought Act: 2. 4● . 47. 1 Cor: 1. 2. Phil: 1. 1. into , & left in the world . The order which the Lord hath set , is , that those which fear him should be of a true visible Church rightly gathered : & that any such should be out of the true Church , or commingled with all the prophane Atheists in a kingdom , is a mayn part of Antichrists confusion . Now if God hath set vs in the orderly communion of a Church , we must not break our order for other mens disordered courses . Communion is a matter of order , & relation , standing in the orderly combyning of the graces of God in two faythfull persons , or more . And how far order ought to praevayl with men in this case let these particulars manifest .

One of the Church commits some notable sinne known to me alone , which ( being dealt with by me ) he denyes ; and without * * Deut: 19 ●● . Math: 18. 16. two or three witnesses the Church may not proceed against him . I must therefore still communicate with the Church , and so with him as a member of it , til God so far discover him as he can be orderly dealt with , & till † † Psal: 125. 5. the Lord lead him forth with the workers of wickednes . And as I am to communicate with an vngodly man , with whom I am orderly joyned in the Church , till I can be orderly disioyned from him : so by proportion I am to forbear communion with a godly man out of the Church , vntill I be orderly joyned vnto him . Further , put the case a man be excommunicated in mine absence , vpon the testimony of two or three witnesses , and that I know he is injuryed , Math: 18. 15. 16. 17. 1 Cor: 5. 11. 12. & am able to manifest his innocency to all men : yet will I for order sake ( & so am bound ) forbear communion with him for the praesent , till his innocency be by me sufficiently cleared . Now if for order I must refuse communion with him , which is put out of the Church for weldoing , by the sinne of others how much more with him that keepes out himself by his own default , and sinne ? So that the holines of a mans person is not sufficient for communion , but withall it must be ranged into the order of a Ch: , wherin both his person , & actions must combyne , & vnder whose censure they must come : whereas this other vnorderly course destroyes the censures , which by Christs appointment , do extend to every brother whosoever .

These thinges I do desire the godly Reader indifferently , and without offence to take knowledge of : and to rest in this our defence , if it be found according to the word of God : if not , to give vs knowledge by the same word of the contrary , wherein we shall willingly rest , and ( by the grace of God ) so practise .

Our 10. reckoned Errour , is that ministers may not celebrate mariage X. nor bury the dead . And this M. B : affirmes we say , but without scriptures . M B :

First , you that charge our opinion with errour , should so haue Answ: proved it by the scriptures , or some Reasons from them . 2. You speak against your own knowledge , having seen our wrytings : especially our Apology , where , in the 3. Petition , to the KING , and the fourth braunch of the sixth Position , there are almost twenty severall scriptures , and nine distinct reasons grounded vpon them , to prove , that the celebration of mariage , and buryall of the dead are not ecclesiasticall actions , apperteyning to the ministery , but civill , and so to be performed . You your self M: B : both affirme and prove in this book from 1 Cor: 12. 4. that “ “ Pag: 131 the Lord onely praescribes the dutyes to be done in every distinct office of ministery in the Church . And the Apostle 2 Tim: 3. 16. 17 testifieth that the scriptures , being divinely inspired , do make perfect , and fully furnished , the man of God , or minister , to every good work of his calling . Now I suppose M. B : will not be so ill advised , as to goe about to prove that the celebration of mariage , and buryall of the dead , are duetyes praescribed by the Lord Iesus to be done in the Pastours office , or that the scriptures lay this furniture vpon the man of God for the proper workes of his office . They are then other spiritual Lordes then the Lord Christ , that prescribe these duties to be done by their men , furnished by other scriptures then the divine scriptures , the Bishops scriptures , their Canons , & constitutions : wherby they ar fully furnished indeed , with ring , surplus , service-book , and other preistly implements for the busines .

The Apostle Paul Eph: 4. 8. 11. 12. teacheth , that when Christ ascended on high , he gave vnto men such gifts , that is , such ministeryes of the Church as should serve for the repayring of the saynts , and aedification of his body , till the work of grace were perfected in all his : and so he makes the work of the ministery , and the aedification of the body of Christ all one . Now who will say that the celebration of mariage , or buryall of the dead are in themselves matters of aedification , or which further the vnity of fayth . They serve for the generall administration of the world , and so are lawfull amongst Turkes , and Heathens , as to eat , and drink , or to perform any other naturall or civil work : and not for the speciall administration of the Church , or body of Christ , and therefore no works of the ministery , which is peculiar vnto the Church .

The Church is a religious society , and so the ministery which is given to the Church is a religious calling , and so the proper works of the ministery must needes be workes of religion : which if mariage or burying the dead were , then were it vnlawfull for a faythful husband to communicate with his wife being an infidell , or excommunicate , in the dutyes of mariage : or for a brother being a faythful person to ioyn with his brother being an infidell , or excommunicate , in the buryall of their dead father ( for with such persons religious communion may not be kept ) whereas the scriptures do commend vnto vs these duties so performed , both as lawfull , and necessary , Gen. 25. 9. & 35. 29. 1 Cor. 7. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. These are then civill duties , and so practised by the servants of God in all ages : whose practise also for our learning is recorded in the scriptures , and commended vnto vs accordingly , Gen. 24. 50. 51. 58. 59. 67. & 25. 34. Ruth . 4 : 1. 2. 5. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. Math. 27. 57. 59 60. Act. 8. 2.

Whether it be an errour in vs as in the 11. place ●e are accused , XI . to hold : that Ministers ought not to live of tythes , and offerings , but of the peoples voluntary contribution , let the Reader , considering what is answered both by Mr Aynsworth , & Mr Smyth , and what is more Apology . Posit . 7. fully written in the book before named , judge .

But This sayth Mr B. is against the wisdome of God , who alloweth a M B : setled maintenance vnder the law : and there is nothing against it in the gospel .

But say I , as the Lord appointed vnder the law a setled maintenance Answ: by tythes , & offerings , so did he a setled land of Canaan , which was holy , and a sacrament : so did he also appoynt that the Levites to be maynteyned there , * * Deut: 1● 1. 2. 3. 4. should have no part , nor inheritance with the rest of the Israelites their brethren . And hath Gods wisdome so appoynted now ? If it had I feare many would not rest in it , so wise are they for their bellyes . And where you adde , that there is nothing in the gospel against this ordinance ●● the law , the authour to the Hebrewes might have taught you , that the law is abolished by the gospel , in the sense we speak of : and the old testament by the new , in respect of ordinances : whereof this was one . If it be sayd that † † Gen: 14. 1● . 20. tythes went in vse , and given by Abraham to Melchizedek Preist of the most high God , before the law , or old testament was given by Moses , I do answer , that so was circumcision ministred , and sacrifices offered before Moses : which notwithstanding were parts of the old testament , and assumed by Moses into the body of it , and so are abolished by the new .

To conclude this poynt , since tythes , and offerings were appurtenances vnto the preisthood : and that the “ “ Psal: 110 4. Heb: 7. 17. & . ● . & . 9. priesthood both of Melchizedek , and Levi are abolished in Christ , as the shadow in the substance ▪ and that * * 1 Cor: 9. 14. the Lord hath or deyned that they which preach the gospell , should live of the gospell , we do willingly leave vnto you both your preistly order , and maintenance , contenting our selves with the peoples voluntary contribution , whither it be it be lesse , or more , as the blessing of God vpon our labour , the fruit of our ministery , and a declaration of their love and duety .

The 12 , and last errour imputed to vs , is , that your Churches ( as XII . you call them ) ought to be raced downe , and not to be imployed to the true worship of God . Our mayn reason of this assertion , being ( as you say ) by making equall Paganism , and Antichristianism , you endevour to weaken M. B. by sundry exceptions . As 1. that there is great difference between Antichristianism , and Pagnism , for this is the worshipping of a false God , and without any profession of the true God : but the other worship the true God , & hold many truthes of God . Paganism was wholly without the Church but Antichrist sits in the Church of God , &c. 2. that we are to prove your Churches to have been built by Antichrist .

We do not make equall Paganism , and Antichristianism , in the Answ: degree , though wee put not such difference between them as you do . And first we do affirm , that both the one , and the other , are not onely agaynst that 2. connaundement , but the first also . 2. that both of them may in their degree , and for a tyme be in the Church : as also that both of them may in tyme , and in their degree , destroy the true Church of Christ . 3. that as well the reliques , ornaments , and monuments of the one , as of the other are by lawfull authority to be abolished : and in the meane while to be forborn especially in the worship of God , by all such , as fear him , & his judgements denounced agaynst the same , let vs heare what the scriptures teach in these cases .

The Apostle Paul writing purposely of * * 2 Thes: 2 3. 4. that man of sin Antichrist , testifieth , that he is an adversary and exalteth himself agaynst all that is called God , or that is worshipped : so that he sitteth in the temple of God as God ▪ shewing himself , that he is God . And as Antichrist cannot be rightly discerned of vs , but in his oppsition vnto Christ , & exaltation above him , so doth this his exaltation appear sudry wayes , by which he doth translate vnto himself the honour due vnto God alone , & his sonne our Lord Christ : as in dispensing with the morall law professedly , bynding , and loosing conscience , devising , and imposing forms of religion , transferring empires , & kingdoms ; & al these doth this earthly God ( as he is called ) by the plenary power of the seat Apostolicall . The same also it was , which Iohn for saw in “ “ chap : 9. 20. the Revelation namely , that the Antichristians worshipped Divels , & Idols of gold , and silver , & brasse , & stone , & wood , which can neyther see nor hear , nor walk , & agayn , that they † † chap : 13. 15. 16. worshipped the beast , which came out of the earth , & the image of the beast , both small , and great , ritch , and poore , free , & bond , & received his mark in their right hand , & in their foreheads . And is the man of sin , & divels , idols , the beast , ( al which Antichristians worship ) the true God ? Or is that notable idol their breaden God in the sacrament of the altar , which they so much adore , the true God ? Yea are the Virgin Mary , & other saynts , to whom they pray go in pilgrimage and perform other devotions , & in whose honour they have built , the very temples we speak of , the true God ? Oh Mr Bern : that you should be drawn to this ple●sor Rome ? Surely the hand of God is vpon you , & it is a fearfull thing you feel it not .

And as Antichristianism doth not worship the true God onely , but false Gods , or such as are no Gods , with him : & therefore is both against the 2. & 1. commandement as hath been sayd : so neyther is Paganism ( as you speak ) without all profession of the true God . To let passe that the learned of our nation have proved the contrary agaynst the Papists , pleading for themselves , as you do for them , that they worshipped onely the true God , that which is written 2 King . 17. ( if there were no more scriptures ) doth sufficiently manifest your errour . It is there sayd , that * * U : 6. 24. the King of Ashur , taking Samaria , & carying away Israell to Ashur , brought from Babylon , and other Heathenish Countryes , folk , and placed them in the Cities of Samaria in stead of the children of Israel . And in the same place it followeth , that those Babylonians , v : 27. 28. 29. 32. 33. and other Pagans reteyning still their Paganism , and worshipping , as before , the Gods of their own nations , did withall worship Iehovah the true God .

Of like truth with the former is that which followeth , namely , that Paganism was wholly without the Church , but that Antichrist sits in the Church of God .

For first , admit it be true of Paganism in the land of Canaan , before the Israelites entred into it , yet afterwards it was otherwise , Psal: 106. 35. 36. 37. 38. as the scriptures testify : and got too great footing in the Church , in that place as it had done before in all places . 2. it is not true you say that Antichrist sits in the Church of God : he sits in his own Church , into which the Church of God is degenerated : though there remayn vsurped sundry things still , which are of God . It is a great vntruth to affirm that the Popish Synagogue in the present state is the true visible Church of God , vnto which he hath promised his presence , & given his power . As Paganism hath subverted other Churches , so hath Antichristianism that Church long agone .

And here I would demaund of Mr Bern. what he judgeth of the Israelites in , and after Ieroboams apostasie , especially in the time of Ahab , & Iezabell , when † † 1 king . 17 30. 31. 32. Baall was espetially worshipped , and temples , and altars reared vp vnto him in Samaria ? Doth he judge them at that tyme playn Pagans ? Or was their worship simple Paganism ? I see not but , as the religion of the Papists , in the opposition it hath to Christianity , is rightly called Antichristianism , so the religion of the ten Tribes , in the opposition it had to the law given by Moses , may fitly be called Anti-Iudaism . And for the Baalims then , Bucer . and there worshipped , they were even as the lesser Gods at this day , Uirell . which are called Patrons , amongst the Papists . The divell to the end he might bring in agayn the old Idolatry , craftily borrowing the names of the holy Apostles , and martyrs , by whom it was in former tymes overthrown , and driven away : and by this meanes it hath put on another person , that it might not be known . Wherevpon it followeth by proportion , that as “ “ Deut. 12 1. 2. 3. 2 King . 10. 25. 26. 27. 28. & 18. 1. 3 4. the temples , altars , and high places , for those Baalims , & other Idols , were by godly kinges to be razed downe and taken away , & no way to be imployed to the true worship of God , so are the temples ( with their appurtenances ) built to the virgin Mary , Peter , Paul , and the rest , though true saynts , yet the Papists false Gods , and very Baalims , to be demolished & overthrown by the same lawfull authority : & in the mean while as execrable things to be avoyded by them which have none authority to deface , or demolish them .

Now howsoever the difference put by M. B. is neyther true , nor to the purpose , if it were true , yet do I graunt a difference , not in respect of the things , but of the tymes , and that there was something legall in many of the commaundements given by Moses touching these , and the like execrable things : yet so as there is one , & the same generall , and comon equity , bynding the Iewes then , & vs now : & that I consider in two respects : the one in the detestation of Idolatry past ; and the other in the preservation of it for the tyme to come . And as the godly vnder the law were to sh●w their detestation of Idolatry by defacing and abandoning the monuments , reliques , and remembrances of it : so are they now to manifest in the same manner , their just , and zealous hatred of the same , or like impietyes : and as the kings , and mighty of the earth have in former tymes given their power vnto the beast , and adorned the purple-coloured whore with many ornaments , and with stately temples , & aedifices amongst the rest , so shall they in the day of her full visitation , strip her naked of these , amongst her other ornaments , and leave her desolate . Now for the 2. reason , who is ignorant how many thowsands in the land are most dangerously nourished in their erroneous , & superstitious perswasions by the howses themselves ( to let passe the particular both memorials of , and incitements vnto Idolatry stil appearing in some places more , & in some lesse ) knowing none other Church , to which God hath promised his speciall praesence , and wherein he wil be glorified , save in that of lime , and stone : & putting holynes in the very place : And how well your Church provides for this , appeares in sundry things ; as in whyting the walls of the houses , where you silenced the preachers : in bynding the people absolutely to the places , though litle care be taken , what eyther they , or the ministers , to whom they come , do there , so they deale not too faythfully in the Lords buesines : in tying Christian buriall absolutely to the Church , or Church-yard , where the Minister , with all his holy implements , Service book . Homilies Tome . 2. must meet the corpes at the Church-style , and so with singing , & saying , as is appointed , admit it into the holy ground . And lastly in teaching the people , that by keeping their Churches in good repayr , they shall not onely please God , and deserve his manifold blessings , but also deserve the good report of all godly people . And for the Papists all men know , what claym they lay vnto the places ( as in deed they do farre better fit their pompous religion , then the simplicity of the gospel ) what new life they continually receive from them , what religion they put in them , and what devotion they haue vnto them , ever by how much the more superstitiously bent , by so much the mo●e devoutly addicted vnto them . And so farre is that from truth which you say , Mr Bernard , that the godly , and Church of Page . 157. God have in Popery kept possession of those buildings , for the godly , which should follow them ; that , as they were erected by such , as were most superst●tiously seduced , so haue they been ever since , the proper posses●ions of the most dangerous seducers in the Romish Synagogue , the Praelates , and their Clergy .

So that the morall equity of those commaundements in the old testiment touching the demolition , and subversion of idolatrous temples , and other the like superstitious monuments , doth as well bynd now , as then . Which commaundements are also in effect renued in the new testament , where the faythfull are charged to † † 2 Cor: 6 1● . touch none vncleane thing ; * * 1 Ioh: ● . 21. to keep themselves from idols , which they cannot do , except they keep themselves from their appurtenaunces : to “ “ Iude 23. hate even the garment spotted by the f●●sh : not to † † Rev: 14. ● . ch: 18. 4. receive the least mark of the beast , but to go out of Babylon , ‘† ‘† ch: 11. 8. which is also called Sodom , and Aegypt , spiritually , as for other sinns reigning in her , so for her idolatry amongst the rest : which I the rather note , that men may se , it is not we , but the holy Ghost , that compares together Paganish , & Antichristian Idolatry .

Lastly , where Mr Bernard bids vs prove that their Churches were built by Antichrist , their records , as Mr Ainsworth observeth , will prove it : so will their situation directly East , and West , with the Quyer , or Chauncell alwayes at the East end , and the rood-loft in the midle to separate it from the body of the Church , the prophane layity : their vacant places for Images abolished , and their popish pictures still remayning : and lastly their names , even the names of the Apostles , Saynts , and Martyrs , in whose honour they were built , and to whose peculiar service thy were consecrated .

Thus much of the temples , which is the last difference betwixt Mr B. and me , and I confesse the least ; and this much also of his book . Something remayns to be spoken of the Ministers Positions , but very breifly , both bycause the things in them for substance , have come formerly into consideration , and also bycause Mr Bernard affoards them no confirmation in his 2. book , being shaken by Mr Ainsworth , as they are .

ANd to omit the bloody doom which these Ministers passe vpon The Ministers Positions Examined . vs all ( contrary I am perswaded to their own consciences ) that wee are cut of from Christ for our separation from the Church of England , I will consider breifly of their reasons to prove it a true Church .

THe first is , bycause They enioy , and ioyn together in the vse of those outward means , which God in his word hath ordeyned for the gathering Minist: of an invisible Church , which are , preaching of the gospell , and administration of the sacraments : which they will prove by the vnf●yned conversion of many : & by the scriptures , Math: 28. 18. 20. Eph. 4. 11. 14. I.

First the Church of Engl : namely the nationall Church , under a Answ: nationall government , and Ministery , is a popish devise : the Lord having appointed none other Church , vnder the new testament but a particular congregation ( as these Ministers truely vnderstand . Pag: 180. Mat : 18. 17. ) with a government , & Ministery correspondent .

2. Before men joyne together ( as a Church in the fellowship of II. the gospell , and communion of Saynts ) in the ordinances of God , they should be prepared by the preaching of the word , and fitted as spirituall stones for the Lords building , & so joyn in covenant , by voluntary , & personal profession of faith , & confession of sinns : from which how far the body of the nationall Church of Engl: both is , and ever hath been , all know .

3. As the sacraments are no meanes to gather eyther the III visible , or invisible Church , but do praesuppose a CHVRCH gathered already into covenant with God , of which covenaunt they are seales : so doth not the Church of England ioyn together in the preaching of the doctrine of sayth , which is the outward meanes for the gathering of the Church . The greatest part of the parishes , as they have onely the service book for prayer , so have they onely the homilies for preaching . And even in the Parishes where the word is best taught , and the sacraments most orderly administred , yet do not men joyn in the vse , but in the abuse of these ordinances : considering the confused communion wherein , the vsurped authority by which , and the book-service according to which , they are dispensed . If the Ministers had onely affirmed , that they had taught amongst them such truths of the gospel , as by which the Lord might , and did sanctifie , & save his elect , or gather an invisible Church , as they speak , I should not contend with them , but should further ad , that I doubt not but such truthes are even in many assemblies of Papists , and Anabaptists , and to hold otherwise is a fowl , & cruell errour : but where they speak of enioying the outward meanes , and by them vnderstand the offices of Ministery , which Christ hath given vnto his Church , for the gathering and feeding of the same ( for which purpose they alledge Math. 28. 18. 20. & Ephe. 4. 11. 14 ) I deny they enioy the outward means ordeyned for the gathering of the Ch: neyther shall they ever be able to prove it , except they can prove themselves lawfully , and according to Christs testament possessed of some of the offices there spoken of .

In the 4. place I would the cause , why these ministers speak of IIII the outward meanes of gathering an invisible Church , & not of a visible , since both the quaestion betwixt them , and vs , is about the visible , and not about the invisible Church , and also that the scriptures they bring for the justification of these meanes amongst them , do speak of the meanes , & ministeries given not to the invisible , but to the visible Church : and if it be not , bycause they know , that if they had spoken of the means of gathering the visible Church , we would ( and that justly ) have excepted , that they do not enjoy , nor have not so much as taught amongst them , those doctrines of the gospell , and that part of Christs Testament , which teacheth the right , & orderly gathering of the visible Church , by separation of the saynts from the vnsanctified world into the covenant , and fellowship of the gospell , by free , and personall profession of fayth , and confession of sinns .

Lastly , as the preaching of the gospell is the onely outward means to gather a Church , so though this meanes be vsed never so fully , and men enioy it , and ioyne in it never so ordinarily , yet except withall they ioyne in the vnderstanding , fayth , obedience of , Math. 13. 19. Ioh. 10. 3. 4. 5. Act. 2. 41. 42. & 8. 36. 37 & 10. 35. & 11. 20. 21. 23. 24. 26. Col. 2. 5 and submission vnto it , and that in the order which Christ hath set , they are not made a Church by it according to the right vse of it , but do make themselves , by abusing it , a conventicle of prophane vsurpers : howsoever M. B. and these ministers , and many others do indeed make the word of God a very charm , in writing and teaching , that the bare vse ( they might say the abuse ) of the word , and sacraments by a company of people , though eyther altogether , or for the most part for feare , fashion , or with opinion of merit ex opere operato , and without all knowledge , or conscience , makes them a true Church of Christ . The Argument from the externall efficient , except it work absolutely necessarily , to the effect , is vnsound . It were senseles to affirme , that bycause physick is the meanes of recovering health , therefore whosoever vse physick , are healed : much more to affirm , that bycause the word is the means to gather a Ch: , whosoever vse it , are a Church ; since physick is a naturall agent , and worketh by a naturall power given it of God ; where the word is a morall agent , having in it sel● no naturall vertue , but working merely by the will of the authour , and supernaturall efficacy of * * Ioh. 3. 8. the spirit , which like the winde , bloweth where it listeth . The two next Reasons ( being indeed one in effect ) which the Ministers bring for the justification of their Church , are 1. that their whole Church maketh profession of the true fayth , for proof of which Minist: they refer vs to the confession of their Church ; the Apology of it : and the Anno Domini 1562. Articles of religion agreed vpon in the Convocation house . 2. that they hold , teach , and mainteyn every part of Gods holy truth , which is fundamentall , and such , as without the knowledge , and beleeving whereof there is no salvation . All which afterwards they reduce to this one head , as the onely fundamentall truth of religion , That Iesus Christ the sonne of God who took our nature of the virgin Mary , is ●ur onely , and all sufficient saviour : which truth , say they , whosoever receive , are the people of God , and ●n the estate of salvation : they that receive it not , cannot possibly be saved . Math: 16. 18. Mark . 16. 16. 1 Ioh: 4. 2. Col: 2. 7.

These two Arguments , for substance , have been handled in the Answ: former part of the “ “ Pag: 261 262. 263. &c: & 270 271. 272. 273. book , vnto which also M. Ainsworth hath given answer in the particulars : of which I entreat the Reader to take knowledge : and do therevnto annex these considerations .

First , it is a very presumptuous thing for these ministers , yea or for any men or angels thus peremptorily to determine how much knowledg a man must have to be saved : that if he have iust so much , I. then he may be , or is it the state of salvation : if he want any of that , he cannot be saved . Who knowes by how litle knowledge the Lord may , and doth save a man , that is faythfull in the litle he knowes , and endevours by all means to further knowledge , and so to further faythfulnes ? As on the contrary , the Lord rejects many with greater knowledg , for their vnfaythfulnes , both in not practising the things they know , and in neglecting to know more , least they should learne that truth , which they have no mynde to practise for feare , or in other corrupt regards .

And howsoever I do acknowledge a difference of truthes , and that some are more , and some lesse principall , yet do I wish more conscience in the application of this distinction . For whereas the ministers are by the lawes , and penaltyes , Civill , and Ecclesiastical , limited in their doctrine ; and both the ministers , and people in their obedience of , and to the truth of the gospel , and ordinances of the new testament , this is made a salve for every sore , that they have the substance of the gospell ; the doctrine of fayth : all fundamentall truthes : and whatsoever is necessary to salvation . In which defence ( as it is made ) there are these evills .

First , in it men not onely endeavour ( which is too much ) the curing of Babell , but iudeed to make Babell beleeve shee stands in no great need of curing ▪ and that her wounds are neyther deadly , nor daungerous .

2. It tends to vilify , and make of small moment many of the Lords truthes , & ordinances , howsoever these * * Pag: 173 174. ministers wil not heare of it . And this will appeare , if the end be considered of these distinctions , and qualifications : which is , that men should setle themselves , without pressing further in the disobedience , and want of sundry of the commaundements , and ordinances of Christ Iesus , till with bodily peace , and leave of the magistrate , they might enjoy the same . And if † † Math. 15. 6. the Scribes and Pharisees were reproved of Christ for making the commaundements , of God of none authority by their traditions , do not they make the commaundements of God , and ordinances of Christ of small moment , who for the traditions , and inventions of men ( yea of that man of sin ) though supported by the arme of flesh , haue forborn and do forbear ( and , so purpose to go on ) the obedience of the fame ? which whether it be not the very estate of these ministers in forbearing to preach ( that I may let passe other matters ) for the refusall of subscription , and conformity , let their own consciences judge . And mark their defence . pag. 174. They beleiv , and teach that there is no part of the holy scripture , which every Christian is not necessarily bound to seek , and desire the knowledge of , so far forth , as in him lyeth . Here is a great charge layd vpon every Christian to seek the knowledge of every part of holy scripture : but no word of his obedience unto every part of it : as if “ “ Mat. 28. 19 20. 21. Christ had not sent out his Apostles to teach men to observ , to the worlds end , but to know , what he had commaunded them : and as if † † Psal. 119. 105. the word of God were onely a light and lanthorn vnto mens eyes , that they might see the wayes of God , and not to their feet , and pathes , that they might walk in them . The same Prophet in the same Psalm entreats the Lord to teach him the way of his statutes , that he might keep it vnto the ver. 33. 34. end : & that he would give him vnderstanding , that he might keep his law : professing also in the same place , that he was comforted in GOD against all that confusion , which his enemyes would have brought vpon him , that he had respect to all GODS commaundements : and this respect was not of bare knowledge , but of observation , and obedience , as appears in all the five verses before going . Neyther therefore can the ministers excuse themselves from making some parts of the holy scriptures of small moment , and needles , as Mr Barrow chargeth them , bycause they advise the people to desire the knowledge of them , except with their ver. 6. knowledge they joyned obedience ; neyther ought the people to rest in that vnsound advise , considering that , * * Iam: 4. 17. to him that knoweth how to do well , and doth it not , to him it is sinn : and that “ “ Luk. 12. 47. to him that knoweth his maysters will , and doth it not , many stripes are due .

3. This pleading by the ministers , that they hould , and enioy every fundamentall truth , and whatsoever is of necessity to salvation , ( considering the end of it , which is , the stopping of the people from pressing vnto further obedience , and profession of the will of God , and ordinances of Christ ) is injurious both to the growth , and sincerity of the obedience of Gods people . For whereas they ought to be † † Heb. 6. 1. led forward vnto perfection , this teacheth them to stay in the foundation , as if it were sufficient for the building of the house , that the foundation were layd : & secondly , it insinuates , that it is sufficient , if , men so serue God , as they can obteyn salvation , though with disobedience of a great part of the revealed wil of God : occasioning them thereby to serve him onely , or chiefly for wages as hypocrites do . As if a child should be taught so far to honour , and please his father as he might get his inheritance , but not much to trouble himself about giving or doing him any further honour , or service .

Secondly I do answer that this truth , which the ministers make II. t 〈…〉 onely fundament truth in religion is held , and professed by as vile haeretiques , as ever were since Christ came in the flesh . May not a company of excommunicates hold , teach , and defend this truth , and yet are they not a true Church of God . III.

3. I deny , that the whole Church of England : hath received , and doth hold , and professe this fundamentall , truth : how boldly soever these ministers affirme it . They graunt there are many Atheists in the land , ( they pag. 166. might say in the Church , for Atheists are , and ever wil be of the Kings , & states religion ) & many ignorant , and wicked men besides , who make not so clear , and holy a profession of the true fayth , as they should . And do these Atheists hold , and professe the true fayth , and every article of Gods holy truth , which is fundamentall ? Are there not many thowsands in the nationall Church ignorant of the very first rudiments , & foundations Heb. 6. 1. 2. of religion , as the Apostle noteth them down : and can they hold , and professe that whereof they are ignorant ? Yea how can any wicked men hold , that CHRIST is their saviour , but they hold an apparantly in the eyes of all men ? for which notwithstanding these Ministers wil have them reputed true members of Christs body . I ad , that since the body of that Church or nation , consists of mere naturall men , and that naturall men are Papists in the case of justification , and look to be saved by their good meaning , and well doings , it is most vntruly affirmed by those ministers , that their Church accounts none her members , but such as professe salvation by Christ onely . They hold otherwise and so professe , if an account of their fayth be demaunded , as I have shewed by the testimony of Mr. Nichols , and could do by the testimony of others , if all men did not see it too evidently . And yet see what these men affirme and that confidently , and without fear , for their advantage : as that their whole Church makes profession of the true fayth ; that it holds , and maintayns every article fundamentall of Gods holy truth : and particularly that Iesus Christ the sonne of God &c. and lastly that they that receive this truth , are the people of God , and in the state of salvation . Whervpon it must follow , that their whole nationall Church is in the state of salvation . And surely so had it need be ( in the judgment of men ) having the promises and seales of the covenant of salvation applyed , and ministered vnto it , and to every member of it .

Lastly , though the whole Church of England , and every member IIII. in it , did personally professe the true fayth in holines , as all the true members of the Church do ( which are therefore called both “ “ Eph: 1. 1. saynts , and faythfull ) and that we had do just exception agaynst that prophane , and implicite profession , for which both Mr. Ber. and the ministers plead , yet could nor this make it or them a true Church . The bare profession of fayth makes not a true Church , except the persons so professing be vnited in the Covenant , and fellowship of the gospel into particular congregations , having the entyre power of Christ within themselves . As hewed stones are fit for an house , but not an howse nor any part of it , till they be orderly layd , and couched together : so are men professing fayth , and holines fit for the Church , but not a Church , nor of it , before their orderly combination into a particular assembly having in it the power of Christ for the ministery , government , censures , and other ordinances . A company of excommunicates put out of the Churches order , may professe the same fayth they did formerly : so may a sect of schismatiques putting themselves causelesly out of the Churches order : so may many particular persons , never ioyning themselve● vnto any Church at all . You your selves define a Church to be a company of faythfull people &c. so is not your nationall Church , but many companyes : not distinct and entyre in themselves , and so onely one in nature , as all the true Churches of God are : but one by monstrous composition , in a praeposterous , and absurd imitation of the Iewish nationall Church , and government .

Thus much of the Arguments ; in the handling of which the ministers insinuate agaynst Mr. Barrow sundry vnjust accusations , Pag: 167. 168. which I will breifly cleare . As first , that he will account none members of the visible Ch: but such as are truly faythful , not onely in outward profession Minist: and appearance , but even in the Lords ey , and judgement : bycause a Church is described a company of faythfull people , that truly worship God and readily obey him .

But wherefore should the ministers thus interpret him ; doth he Answ: not speak of the visible or externall Church , and so by consequence of visible , and externall fayth , and obedience , which are seen of men . In their Articles of religion a Church is made a company of faythful people : & if they must not be truely faythfull , then they must be fals●ly faythfull . And for † † Ioh: 4. 23 Rom: 15 18. & 16. 19. true worship , and ready obedience , the Lord requires them in his word , according to which we must defyne Churches , and not according to casuall corruptions , and aberrations , brought in by mans fault .

2. They charge Mr. Barrow to hold that every member of our Minist: assemblyes is led by the spirit into all truth , and that it is evident , he would Pag: 170. 171. have none to be accounted the people , and Church of God , who eyther know not , or professe not every truth , conteyned in the scriptures : bycause he af firms in his Discovery , that to the people of God , and every one of them , God hath given his holy sanctifying spirit , to open vnto them , and to lead them into all truth .

It followes not that bycause he affirmes they have received the spirit Answ: to lead them into all truth , that he therefore affirmes , they are led into all truth , by the spirit . May not the Papists as truly avouch , that Paull teacheth that the Church , is without spot , or wrinkle , or any such thing , bycause he teacheth , that * * Eph: 5. 25. 2● . Christ hath given himself for it , that he might make it vnto himself a glorious Ch: , without spot , or wrinckle , or any such thing ? It is then an il collection , that bycause one thing is done , that an other might follow vpon it , that therefore the latter ▪ which is to follow , is also done . And for the poynt : as it is the work of the spirit to lead men into all truth , & as “ “ Rom: 8. 9. all that are Christs , or members of his body , have his spirit , so doth it follow that all the members of the Church have the spirit given them of God , to lead them into all truth , though it have not his full work , by reason of * * Gal: 5. 17 the contrary work of the flesh , in this life , wher † † 1 Cor: 12 12. all men know but in part .

3. That Mr. Bar : holds every truth in the scriptures fundamentall , that is ( as they expound it Pag: 147. ) such as if it be not known , and obeyed , the whole religion and fayth of the Church , must needs fall to the ground . Minist:

Mr. Ainsworth hath set down his words : from which no such Answ: collection can be made : he directs them , & that worthily , agaynst these deceivers which knowing & acknowledging , that they want many speciall ordinances of Christ , and are burdened in stead of them , with the inventions of Antichrist , do notwithstanding encourage themselves , and others , by these distinctions that they haue the fundamentall truthes of the gospell , and whatsoever is necessary to salvation , and the like , in a purpose to go on all their life long in disobedience . For which men how much better were it to consider how it is written , that , “ “ Math: 5. 19. whosoever shall break one of the least commaundments and teach men so , he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven , then thus to turn vpon them which reprove them for their vnfaythfulnes ; and misinterpreting their sayings most injuriously , to spend thus many words , as these ministers do , in confuting their owne corrupt glosses .

Their fourth , and last Argument , is , for that all the known Churches Minist. in the world acknowledge their Church for their sister : and giue her the right hand of fellowship .

This Argum. hath been sundry tymes vrged by Mr. Ber. and so Answ: answered sundry tymes both by M. Ainsworth , and my self in the former part of my * * Pag: 40. 41. 42. 46. 47. book : whether I must refer the reader , contenting my self with a breif observation of such vntruthes , and errours , as these ministers are driven vnto in the prosecuting of this Argument : as

First , that , all the known Churches in the world are well acquaynted with Minist. their doctrine , and liturgy : to which they should also ad their book of ordination , and canons Ecclesiasticall , for their ministery , and Answ. government : then which nothing is more vntrue , Beza , which was specially interessed in these matters , will hardly be perswaded of the true state of things : touching dispensations , pluralityes , the power of excommunication in one man , and the like . II.

It is most vntrue , that God hath sanctifed the testimony of Churches Minist: for a principall help in the decyding of controversies in this kind . It is ( though Answ: some help ) yet lesse principall , yea the least of many .

3. That Paul feared that without the approbation of Iames , and Cephas , III. and Iohn he should have run in vayn . Minist:

Paul feared no such thing ; for he was both assured of his calling Answ: from the Lord , and had also taken , long before that tyme , good experience of the Lords blessing vpon his ministery both amongst the Iewes , and Gentiles ; and knew right assuredly , that his preaching was not in vayne . His care was to take away from the weak all scruple of mynde , or iealousy of contention amongst the Apostles ; he went vp to Ierusalem to confer with them .

4 : That Paul sought to win commendation and credit to the orders which IIII. he by his Apostolicall authority might have established , by the iudgement of Minist: other Churches . Whereas the Apostle Paul did by his Apostolicall authority appoynt those orders in all those churches he speaks of , Answ: as the scriptures quoted testify . 1 Cor: 4. 7. 17. & 16. 1. Besides , the Church of England : can win no great credit to her orders by the orders of other Churches , considering how contrary she is in them to all other Churches departed from Rome , whom alone in very many the resembleth .

Fiftly , the testimony which Iohn Baptist gave of Christ , is vnfitly V. brought for the testimony of one Church of an other . For it was Minist: the proper , and principall work of † Iohns calling to give witnes of Answ: Christ : wherein also he could not erre . It is not so with , or between Ioh: 1. 6. 7. 15 ▪ 23. any Churches in the world .

Where it is further affirmed , that there are cases wherein one Church VI. is commaunded to seek the iudgement of other Churches , and to account it as Minist. the iudgment of God ; for which Act: 15. 2. is alledged : as it is true , Answ. that one Church is in cases to seek the judgement , and help of an other , so is it vntrue , that the judgement of that other Church , or of all the Churches in the world , is to be accounted as the judgment of God . Indeed the decrees of the Apostles at Ierusalem , being by imediate , infallible direction of “ “ ver. 28. the H : Ghost , were to be accounted , as the judgement of God : but for any ordinary eyther Churches , or persons to challenge the like vnto their determinations were popelike praesumption .

To the Ministers demand in the next place . Sayth Christ to any VII . particular congregation of the faythful in our land , Whatsoever they bind in Minist. earth , is bound in heaven , Mat. 18. 18. and sayth he it not also to the Churches of other nations ?

I do answer that if Christ have so sayd to the particular congregations , Answ. who hath sayd it to the Praelates & their substitutes , or to any officer , or officers , excluding the body of the Congregation ? Even none but he , whose work it is to gainsay Christ , & to subvert his order ? 2. If any of your parishes be such congregations , why do not you as faythful Ministers exhort them to , & guide them in the vse of this power of binding , & loosing , which Christ hath given them ? Or are not you content to suffer them to go on , and your selves to go before them in the losse of this liberty , yea in a most vile subjection to their and your , spirituall Lords , which have vsurped it ? And for the Argument it is of no force : for neyther hath any one Church in the world that power over an other , nor all the Churches in the world over any one , which the meanest Church hath over any her member , or members whomsoever . One Church may forsake an other , but juditially to censure , or excommunicate it , may it not . The same answer for substance may serve for that which is objected from 1 Cor. 14. 32. Besides , no Church can so fully discern of the estate of an other Church , as it can of the proper members apperteyning vnto it . Yea I ad , that in this respect , wee are better able to iudge of the Church of Engl: then are any forreyn Churches , ( notwithstanding our weaknes ) bycause they do not in any measure know the estate of it , as we do .

Lastly , as that saying of the Ministers must have a very favourable VIII . interpretation , vi● , that the Church hath power to iudge of a man infallibly , Minist. that he is in the estate of salvation , so is their other affirmation , that the discerning of the spirits , and doctrine of such teachers , as arise in the Church , is such a gift , as the true Ch: never wanted , as popish an errour , Answ. as ever was broched in Rome . For how then can the Church erre ? or how can it be deceived by false teachers ? or how could Rome come to that estate of apostasie wherein she now standeth ? Or may not a Papist plead thus with these men ? Rome was a true Church of God . Now the true Church never wants the gift of discerning spirits & doctrines , therefore Rome neyther hath wanted , nor doth , nor ever shall want this gift : and so by consequence cannot be faln from the truth , as is praetended against her .

To conclude , it is not truely sayd of these men , that this judging of one Church by another is a matter of salvation . The Ch: Act. 10. 14 15. 34. 35. with 11. 2. 3. 4. 5. of Ierusalem was ignorant of the calling of the Churches of the Gentiles , as the scriptures testify . And I would know what the Church of England judgeth of the Lutheran Churches , as they are called . It accounteth of them , as of true Churches . So do not they of their Churches , whom they call Calvinists , but on the contrary repute them as haereticall . Wherevpon it followeth , that eyther a true Church may erre in judging of an other Church , or els that eyther the Church of England , or the Lutheran Churches , or both , are not true Churches . Howsoever therefore we do not make light account of the testimony , and iudgement of other Churches , as these Ministers accuse vs , yet dare wee not make idols of them as they seem to do : who wanting both the word of God , and practise of other Churches for their warrant , seek commendation by the testimony which some haue given of them in respect of certeyn generall heads of doctrine , in which wee our selves also do for the most part concur with them .

Thus much of the Ministers Arguments . Now follow their answers to two mayn obiections made by vs against the whole body of their Church , and their Parish assemblies .

The first is , that it was not gathered by such means , as God in his word hath ordeyned , and sanctifyed for the gathering of his Church . The 2. that they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God , which is polluted with the writings of men , vidz , with read stinted prayers , homilyes , catechismes , and such like .

These objections have been els where prosequuted , and the exceptions taken by the Ministers agaynst them , particularly answered by Mr Ainsworth , and therein their both corrupt , & weak dealing manifested . I will briefly adde a few things .

Against the former objection they take five exceptions .

First , that they might lawfully be accounted a true Church , though it could not appear that they were at the first rightly gathered : as the disciples might be assured of Christs bodily prasence amongst them , when they saw , & felt him , Ioh. 20● 19. 28. though they could not have discerned , which way , or how he could possibly haue come in .

Belike then wee must beleeve that the Church of Engl: was Answ: gathered miraculously , as Christ came by miracle into the place where his disciples were assembled . But the answer is , that these men take the mayn quaestion for graunted , which is , that their nationall Church is for the present , a true orderly gathered Church of Christ ; and that so sensibly , as it may be seen , and felt .

Secondly , that they might be rightly gathered to the fellowship of the visible Minist: Church , by other meanes then by the preaching of the gospell , that is , as they expound it , by publique , and ministeriall preaching ; for which they alledge our opinion though vnsound , yet having force enough to stop our mouthes .

And do these men deal soundly , who to prove a point in controversie , Answ: bring the opinion of their adversaries , which they condemn ▪ as vnsound ? The opinion is most sound , that men out of office ( for so wee speak ) may convert men to God , and that ordinarily : otherwise they may not prophesie ordinarily ; nay to what end should they ordinarily instruct , reprove , and exhort privately such , as are out of the way ? And where further they make it one thing for men to be soundly converted , and an other thing for them to be lawfully made a visible Church , they vse craft to cover errour . They vse craft in speaking of sound conversion , to conceal that prophane and hateful errour , that a visible Church may be lawfully gathered of vnconverted persons . For as our quaestion is about the externall , or visible Church , so do wee require for it onely externall , and visible conversion , or that which is seen , and discerned of men , leaving vnto God the judging , and discerning of that which is sound or inward ▪ according to the difference which them selves truely put from the † † 1 Sam: 16. 7. Act: 15. 7. 8. scriptures , in an other * * Pag: 16● place .

Now that it is a vile , & prophane errour to hold that men converted , & wicked ( viz: so far as men can judge by outward appearance ) may lawfully be admitted into the visible CHVRCH , I have shewed at large in the former part of the “ “ Pag: 269. 270. 271. 272. 273. 301. 305. 306. 307. 308. 309-310 . Book ▪ and could if need were shew the whole course of the scriptures against it . Mat. 28. 19. 20. Act. 2. 40. 41. 46. 47. & 4. 32. & 8. 5. 6. 8. 37 & 9. 15. with 13. 42. 43. & 14. 15. & 16. 14. 15. 31. 32. 33.

Of like nature with the former , is that which followeth , namely that men may by other meanes be lawfully made a visible Church , then by Minist. the preaching , that is by the opening , or publishing , of the gospel . For which they instance in those which follow Christ , and professed themselves his disciple● , who yet were not all drawn by his word , but some by miracles Ioh. 2. 23. 25. some by the report they heard of him Ioh. 4. 39. s●me by the desire they had to be fed by him : Ioh. 6. 24. 26. & that , Christian Kings have by their lawes been meanes to bring men to the outward society of the Church , vnto which men may be compelled . Luk. 14. 23.

It is not true that Christ in his life gathered any visible Churches . Answ: These persons indeed , which followed Christ , were members of the visible Church , but it was of the Church of the Iewes , which Christ gathered not . He lived and dyed † † Rom. 15. 8 the Minister of circumcision , and gathered no distinct Churches at all from the Iewish Church . Secondly neyther any of the things named , nor all of them together , without or besides the gospell , are means sufficient lawfully to gather a visible Church . Some of them as miracles , may be meanes * * Mark . 16. 20. to confirm the gospel , and the rest of them to draw men to the hearing of , and outward submission vnto it ▪ but is alone is the hand of God , as Mr Ber. truely writeth , stretched out to sub du● people vnto him : it is the seed of the Lords husbandry : the word of Pag. 118. his kingdom .

When the Lord Iesus sent out his Apostles to gather Churches , 1 Cor. 3. 9. Math. 15. 19. Math. ●8 . 19. 20. the onely meanes which came into his heart was the teaching , or making of men disciples : and the Apostle to the Ephes: witnesseth , that the Church , or “ “ ch. ● . ●0 . temple of God , is built vpon the foundation of the Apostles , and Prophet● , Iesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone● but these men , it seemes , will have the Church of God built vpon the lawes of Magistrates , yea vpon the reports ▪ yea vpon the bellyes of men . They would be counted Ministers of the gospel , & yet they make no conscience of ascribing the honour which is peculiar vnto the gospel , vnto so many other , and so mean things . And for Christian Kings , & Queens ▪ as as I acknowledge them for noursing fathers , & anothers , so may I not for proc●●ant parents , of the Church . It is vnreasonable to affirm , that civil causes , as are their compulsive lawes , should bring forth spirituall effects , as is the Church or kingdom , of Christ . By this Argument the Turk may make all his dominions a Church in a week , or two . It may as truely be affirmed , that Magistrates may by their lawes compel † Act: 2. 41. men to receive the word gladly : to stand in the estate of * * v : 47. salvation : to be “ “ 1 Cor: 1. 2 saynts , and sanctified in Iesus Christ : to be † † 1 The : 1. 1 & 2. 1. 1. in him , and in God the father , through him ; viz: externally , and in appearance , and so far as men can judge : for such is the Church , and of such persons doth it consist , as the scriptures cited testify . And for the parable in Luke 14. 23. which they bring to prove that the Church may be gathered by bodily compulsion , as Mr Ainsworth hath justly reproved their folly from Prov: 26. 9. & sufficiently confuted their erroneous exposition , shewing that Luke speaketh of a spirituall violence , and compulsion , which the word of God offereth vnto the consciences of men : so do I ad for the conclusion of this poynt , that even the blynde * * Math: 22 15. Pharisees did see , and discerne , that Christ meant by the former servants the Prophets , which the Lord the King sent to the Iewes ; as he did by the last , the Apostles , whom , when the Iewes refused the gospell , he sent to the gentiles , to compel them by the efficacy of the “ “ Heb: ●4 . 12 word ( which is mighty in operation ) to the obedience of fayth .

Lastly what compulsive lawes soever the Magistrates may make , or exequute , it is a vile errour to think , & a sinfull flattery to bear them in hand , that they have power from God to compel an apparently see pag: 300 flagious person to enter into the Church of God , and the Church so to receive and continue him .

The Ministers 3. exception that their Church was gathered by the Minist: preaching of the word : and that the first conversion of their land to the fayth of Christ was by the preaching of the gospell , as appeares by the best historyes . And so they go on ▪ and tell vs of many from age , to age , called by the same meanes : who in the tyme of persequution sealed the truth with their blood , and in the time of freedom did openly professe the same .

In the page immediately before going , a Church might be gathered Answ: without conversion : and now their Church was lawfully gathered , for it was converted to the fayth of Christ , by the preaching of the gospell . 2. It is both vntruly and vnadvisedly affirmed of these ministers , that their land was converted to the fayth of CHRIST . The defence of their nationall Church , and of the compulsion of all the flagitious persons in the nation to ioyne , & continue members of it , drives them to this absurd assertion , that the whole nation , or land was at the first converted to the fayth of Christ .

And where they speak of many in all ages since called by the gospell which also they have sealed with their blood , as I confesse this with Mr Ainsworth , ( and rejoyce for the mercy of God towards them this way ) so I doubt not but the truthes taught in Rome have been effectuall to the saving of many : for which also there have many of them ( and no doubt , would many more if there were occasion ) lay down their lives against Pagans , & Infidels .

But these men should prove first , that the body of the land have been converted to the fayth of CHRIST , and orderly joyned into particular congregations : and 2. that it hath so continued ever since , even in the tymes , when the blood of those Martyrs now spoken of , was shed by the lawes civil , and Ecclesiastical , made by the body of it , through the seduction of Antichrist , for that purpose : and so that there needed no new gathering after the Romish apostasy , by the preaching of the gospell on the one side , and by willing subjection in free , and personal profession , on the other .

That which they ad of sundry secret congregations in Queen Maryes dayes in many parts of the land , is but a boast : there were very few of them in any . But where they say , that these did vpon Queen Elizabeths entrance openly professe the gospell , it is vntrue ; there was not one congregation separated in Queen Maryes dayes , that so remayned in Queen Elizabeths . The congregations were dissolved , and the persons in them bestowed themselves in their severall parishes , where their livings , and estates lay . The circumcised were mingled with the vncircumcised , whence came that monstrous confusion , agaynst which we witnes . And shew me one of your ministers continuing his charge in Queen Elizabeths dayes , over the flock to which he ministred ( in Queen Maryes dayes ) the persequuted gospell . It is certayn the congregations ( whether many , or few ) were all dispersed , and that the members of them joyned themselves to the prophane Apostate Papists , where their outward occasions lay . As then an handfull , or bundle of co●●e shufled into a feild of weeds , though in it selfe it retayn the same nature , yet cannot make the feild a corn feild : so neither could this small handful of separated people in Queen Maryes dayes sanctify the whole feyld of the idolatrous , & prophane multitude in the land , by their seating themselves amongst them .

As then it is not true , that the body of the land , in the beginning of Queen Elizabeths reigne , did joyne vnto the secret congregations ( so remayning ) in Queen Maryes dayes : but on the contrary , these congregations did dissolve , and joyne themselves with the vnhallowed rowt in the popish , & profane parishes vnder their late ( masse , & their dumb ) priests for the most part : so neyther matters it which ioyned unto which since the vnhallowed , & graceles multitude neither could by the word of God ioyn vnto others , nor be ioyned to by them in the covenant of grace and of the gospell , with the seales and other the ordinances thereof , to which they had , or have no right . Vpon the same ground also I infer , that it is not materiall , though the people were not compelled to the profission of the gospell before the midsomer after the Queen came to the crown : if they were compelled to professe the gospel , of , and vnto which , they were apparantly , and notoriously ignorant , and disobedient , as they were . They knew what they were to look for : and so being , for the most part , of no religion , they set themselves to conform , as the tymes were , to that , which they discerned the Queen to be of .

And for the Preachers , and Commissioners , which were sent before this set day , for the catholik fayth of all the Queens subjects , as I think it was well , so was it not sufficient to make the whole land , or to prepare them to be a true Church : besides that the people were of the Church all this while : the same nationall , provinciall , diocesan , and parochiall Church , & Churches consisting of the same persons generally , still continuing vnder the same government , & ministery , & in the same will-worship , though in a measure reformed , as before in Queen Maryes dayes .

Now for the Preachers you name , as Mr Knoxe , Lever ; &c. which exercised their Ministery in some of the best reformed Churches , during Q. Maryes reign , as the good they did to some few . ( in comparison ) by the truthes they taught , could not make all the Queens subjects a true nationall Church , so do we all know how hardly they were suffered in the beginning of the Queens reign , & that contrary to the publick Church-government , & ministery : as also that neyther they , nor any others , could or can be admitted to any Church by any ministery received in the reformed Churches , but onely by the ordination of a popish Praelate whether English , or Romish , it matters not : by which also it is apparant to all men vpon what string the English ministery hangeth .

Lastly where these men say that many are dayly added to the Church by the ministery of the word preached , I marvayl how this can be , and from whence they are added . Addition is a motion , and in every motion , there must be the terms , or bounds , from and to which it is made . All they to whom they preach , are of the Church already : for recusant Papists come not to their Church ; and besides the number of them encreaseth dayly . It seemes then they are added from the Church to the same Church . Bycause this practise of adding men to the Church by the preaching of the gospell was in vse in the primative Churches , and this phrase vsed in the scriptures : therefore these ministers think they may abuse the phrase , without the thing : and so feed their simple readers with words of the winde .

Of the ministers 4 exception , viz: of the vniting of the Queens subiects Minist: vnto those professours , whose fellowship in popery they had forsaken : and of the course taken for that purpose by the example of the godly Kings Answ: of Iudah I have formerly spoken : of the former part even now : and of the latter els where , declaring . 1. first that the English nation , and all the people of the kingdom never was admitted into the LORDS covenant , by the rules of the new testament , to become a nationall CHURCH , vnder nationall government , as was IUDAH , and all the people in it vnder the old . If this can be proved I acknowledge my self in many great errours : if not it is vanity , and errour , thus to instance in IVDAH , and indeed to revive Iudaism , and the old testament .

2. That though England had been somtimes a true nationall Church , as was Iudah , yet that it did not so remayn in the deep Apostacy of Antichrist but was divorced in Rome her mother : whereas Iudah on the other side , ( into what transgression soever she sell ) was never divorced by the Lord , but still remayned his ( though vnfaythfull ) wife : the L. ever & anon , stirring vp some extraordinary instrument or other for her reformation , & the renovation of her covenant : with which also the Lord so effectually wrought , as the things are wonderfull which are written of all the people , and such , as never shal be found in any whole kingdom to the worlds end .

3. That the reformation by King Edward , and Queen Elizabeth ( though great in it self , and they in it vnder GOD greatly to he honoured ) was nothing comparable to that which was made in Iudah , by Iehosaphat , Iosiah , Asa , Ezechiah , and Nehemiah .

These poynts I have proved at large * * Page 276. 277. 278. 279. &c: to 304 else where , and do refer the reader thither for answer , onely I will note some particular oversights of the ministers in this fourth exception : as first , where they say they have proved there was a true Church in the land before Queen Elizabeths reign ; they should have proved , that the Land was a true Church : for so was Iudah . 2. Where they say , that the noble men were sent by Iehosaphat onely to accompany , & assist the Levites , & to 2 Chr: 17. 7 countenance their ministery , where the scriptures affirme they were sent even to teach . You will have no teaching but by Church officers : therfore you so put the scripture of . 3. That they say , Iosiah compelled See pag 295. 296. 297. 298. his subiects to the service of the true God : taking compulsion as they do ; where it is evident the people did it freely : though I acknowledge he made compulsive lawes . 4 Speaking of the authority of magistrates over their subjects they bring in Ezechias proclamation , as they call it , sent to Israell : wheras the ten tribes were not his subiects , nor he their King . And lastly , that the Ismaelites were separated from the Church of God : therein acknowledging that IVDAH was alwayes the true Church of God : which I suppose they will not say of Engl: alwayes , or of Rome : if they do , it is their sin to separate from the true Church .

The fifth , and last exception of the ministers is , that Mr Minist: BARROW & Mr GREENWOOD required that the people in the beginning of the Queens reign should by solemn oth , & covenant , have renounced Idolatry , & have professed fayth , & obedience to the gospel , after the example of Asaes reformation . To which their answer is , first that such a covenanting by oath is not absolutely necessary , as appeares in Iehosaphats , & Iosiahs reformation . 2. That the people was before that oath , & covenant , Gods true Church : which their people also may be . 3. That sundry congregations as in Coventry , and Northampton did publiquely professe repentance for their Idolatry , and promised to obey the truth established . 4. They doubt not to affirm that the whole land in the first Parliament did enter a solemn covenant with the Lord for renouncing of Popery , and receiving the gospell .

That Mr Barr. and Green : should requyre , that the covenant Answ: into which the Church entereth , should be by oth necessarily , is more then I know : or then we practise . But that they required , that the people , that is , the whole nation , should so have passed a solemn oth , and covenant , I know is most vntrue . All men know they thought the ignorant prophane , popish multitude vncapable of the Lords covenant , and the seales of it : & to have requyred of them an oth for such a purpose had been to have requyred of them the taking of Gods name in vayn . Where it is sayd in the 2. place that the people of Iudah were Gods true Church , before the tyme of that oth , and Covenant , it is true , and agaynst you . And I would demaund of you whether your people were Gods true Church , when Popery reigned . Your answer is , so may our people bee . You dare not say they were ; for then you should acknowledge the Romish Synagogue the true Church of GOD , and that you had sinfully , schismed from it , as Mr Bern. proves agaynst you , and himselfe : you will not say , they were not : for that would make against you in the poynt in hand : and would manifest , ( as in deed it doth ) that the course taken with Iudah ( being the true Church ) for her reformation , cannot agree with Rome , or Engl: as a member of the Romish Church for her reformation .

To that which is added in the 3. place of Coventry , Northampton , and some other congregations , my reply is , first that this is not likely to have been the deed of the congregations , but of some two or three forward ministers , ( a few of the people it may be approving of it ) which their successours were as like to reverse . 2. They did not repent of their publique idolatry nor purpose to obey the truth in sincerity : of their prophane mixture , Romish hierarchy , and ministery , popish leyturgy , and constitutions ( according to which all things are administred amongst them ) they repented not : and besides they knew right well many truthes , which they purposed not to imbrace . 3. graunt it were ( as they pretend ) with these few parishes , what must be sayd of the rest which did not so practise ? with whom they make , and alwayes have done one entyre nationall Church , or what is this to the publique , and formall state of the Church of England agaynst which we deale . The truth is , these men thus practising , were reputed , ( and truely ) schismatiques in the formall constitution of the Church : and by which this their dealing hath no warrant at all . If we should object vnto you the Papists doctrines and practises , of two or three ministers amongst you , not warrantable by law , you would not admit of our exception agaynst the formall established estate of your Church : so neyther may we admit of yours , for the practise of two or three , disliking the present state of things , and seeking for reformation of them .

Lastly , wee see indeed that those Ministers doubt not to affirme , that the whole land ( Papists , and Atheists and all ) did in the first Parliament of the Queen enter a solemn covenant for renouncing of Popery , and receiving the gospel : but we would see first , how all these swarmes of wicked Atheists , and most flagitious persons were by the revealed will of God capable of the covenant of the new testament , and the seales , and other rites , and priviledges of it . Otherwise this haling them into covenant with the Lord agaynst his expresse will , was a prophane , & presumptuous enterprise in it self , though I doubt not arising from a godly intent in the Queen , & her cheif connsellers being mislead by them , whom they too much trusted . 2. We would see what warrant there is in the new testament for this nationall covenant , or that all the people in a Land ( since the Land of Canaan was prophaned ) should unite into a nationall Church , vnder a nationall government , and ministery . 3. That which wee answered in the 2. place to the former branch of this exception , must here agayn be remembred . 4. this vndoubted affirmation of the ministers touching the whole lands covenanting in the Parliament , first inferreth that the enacting of civil lawes , and penall statutes by Kings , and States , doth gather CHVRCHES : for none other covenant was there in the Parliament . 2. It confirmeth the popish doctrine of implicite fayth : see pag: 302 303. 304. & that men may receive , and professe a fayth whereof they are ignorant , yea which they dislike and hate , so farre as they know it : for so was it with the body of your nation , the greatest part by farr being mere † † 1 Cor. 2. 14. naturall men , and so not knowing the gospel : yea “ “ Ioh. 3. 20 evil doers , which hate the light .

Our 2. objection touching the outward worship wherein the Ch: of England communicateth , comes now to be enforced . In the clearing of which the Ministers do ( to speak on ) insist onely vpon their stinted , & set formes of prayer : for the justification of which Minist. they bring sundry scriptures as Numb : 6. 2. 3. 24. Deut. 26. 3. 15. Psal. 22. 1. & 92. Luk. 11. 2. Now for our more orderly proceeding , I will reduce the things they say to three Answ. generall heads ( vnder which I will consider of the particulars ) shewing how in all , and every of them they are mistaken .

First , in that they do confound , and make all one ordinance , Blessings , Psalmes , and Prayers .

2. In misinterpreting the scriptures they bring to prove a set , and stinted form of words to be imposed in prayer .

3. In concluding ( as they do ) that if Moses , and Christ might appoynt , and impose a certayn form of words to be vsed for prayer , that then the Bishops in England or others , may vse the same power , and appoint an other form of words so to be vsed . Of these three in order .

And first , it is evident , that , howsoever some kinde of blessing , and prayer be all one , and so may be confounded , yet that solemn kinde of blessing spoken of Numb : 6. and which the PATRIARKS , and PREISTS did vse in their places , was I. cleane of an other nature . In prayer the MINISTER stands in place of the PEOPLE , and in their name offers II. vp petitions , and thanksgiving to GOD : But in blessing , the Minister stands in the place of God , and in his name pronounceth a blessing , or mercy vpon the people . 2. Whereas this duety of prayer may be performed by one equall to another , by an inferiour to a superiour , yea by a man to himself : that other of blessing is alwayes from the greater to the lesser : and therefore the Apostle to the Hebrews , to shew that the Preisthood of Melchi-sedek was Heb. 7. 17. more excellent then that of Levi proves it by this , that Melchisedec blessed Abraham ; taking this for granted without all contradiction , that the lesse is blessed of the greater . 3. Mr Ber: himself in this book III. makes prayer one thing , and the blessing pronounced vpon the people , pag. 148. when they departed , another thing : as he also makes singing of psalmes a third distinct thing from them both : as there is cause he should .

For first , the Apostle writing to the Corinthians of the divers I. giftes , and administrations in the Church , speaketh thus . * * 2 Cor. 14. 15. I wil pray with the spirit , but I will pray with the vnderstanding also : I will sing with the spirit , but I will sing with the vnderstanding also . Answerable vnto which is that in † † Ch. 5. 13. Iames , Is any among you afflicted ? let him pray ; is any merry ? let him sing : both the one , and other Apostle making singing , and praying distinct exercises . Ad vnto this , that whereas II. in praying we are to speak onely vnto God , it is otherwise in singing , where we are taught to “ “ Ephe. 5. 19. Col. 3. 16. speak vnto our selves in psalmes , and to teach , and admonish our selves in Psalmes , and himnes , and spirituall songs . What greater difference ? In prayers wee speak onely to God : in psalmes to our selves mutually , or one to another . Neyther had Mr Giffard any advantage in the words following , where wee are taught to sing with a grace in our harts to the Lord : for by singing with a grace is meant such singing as ministreth grace vnto the hearers , contrary to that corrupt , or rotten communication . Eph. 4. 29. And in this , as in all other things , we must propound the glory , and honour of God vnto our selves .

3. There are very many both of Davids , and others Psalmes , III. wherein there is no title of prayer : but they are merely to be sung for doctrine , instruction , and meditation , as Psal. 1. 2. and many Minist: pag. 192. 593. more . The Ministers write , that the most Psalmes that David made , were sung not onely as meditations , and doctrines , for the instructions of the Ch: but as prayers to God : bycause they are sayd to be sung vnto the Lord : for which purpose they instance in one onely , which is Psal. 66. 2. 3.

Well , not to fall to reckoning with them ( wherein they and Answ: I should not agree : for I would except against their picked instance : Ps. 66. 2. 3. which all men may see was not sung for prayer , nor vnto the Lord , as they mean , but for instruction , and provocation of the Church to prayse God ) if they consider it , they should have proved , not that some , but that all psalmes are prayers ; otherwise they may not be confounded , & made one ordinance , as by them they are . But to come to that which is specially to be observed : even those Psalmes , whose matter is prayer , are not prayers : neyther is the singing of them , the outward ordinance , and exercise of praying , And this is the very state of the controversy ▪ Which that it may be vnderstood the better , it must be considered , that the very same matter of prayer may be vsed diversly , and so formed into divers externall ordinances . It may be read , preached , heard , written , sung , or prayed . Now who is so simple , as to say herevpon that reading , preaching , hearing , writing , singing , praying , are all one ? If a man read Davids prayer , that * * 2 Sam. 15 31. the Lord would turn the counsayl of Ahitophel into foolishnes : or eyther read , or sing the 6. Psalm where in his prayer , he professeth , that he causeth his bed v : 6. every night to swim , and waters his couch with teares : or Psalm. 42. that he remembers God from the Land of Iorden &c. doth that man therefore ver: 6. pray to God , that he would turn into foolishnes the counsel of Ahitophel ? or doth he professe , that he waters his couch with teares every night , & remembers God from the Land of Iorden ? or is it not evident he reads , and sings those prayers onely for instruction of himself , & others ? And so wee read in the inscription of the last named psalm that it was committed to the sonnes of Corah ( not to pray it , which they could not do without folly ) but for instruction . And as truely may it be sayd , that the reading of Noahs curse , or Schemies , is cursing , Gen. 9. 25. 2 Sam. 16. 5. as that the reading , or singing ( for singing is , but a reading in tune ) of Davids prayers , is praying .

But it will here be asked , is it not then lawfull for a man in the singing of Davids psalmes ( consisting of prayer ) to lift vp his hart , and to have it affected accordingly , as he can apply the matter in them to his present state , & occasions ? yes certaynly , it is both lawfull , and godly : but withall it must be remembred , that the quaestion here is not about the inward affection of the heart , but about the outward ordinance : and 2. that a man may so lift vp his heart , and have the affection of prayer , and thanksgiving , in preaching , hearing , writing , reading : and yet not perform the outward exercise , and outward ordinance of prayer , of which our quaestion is .

Lastly , in psalmes there is of necessity required a certayn known form of words , that two or more may sing together : according to the nature of the ordinance , wherein many joyning vocally , do make a concent or harmony . But who will say there is such simple necessity of a set form of words for prayer ? wherein one is to utter a voyce , according to the suggestions of the spirit in his heart , and the rest to consent by silence , with saying Amen . By which it appeareth how vnadvisedly these ministers and others , do thus agayn and agayn vrge set formes of psalmes to prove set formes of prayer .

Thus much of the first head ; the second followeth , in which such scriptures are to be considered of , as are brought to prove a set , & stinted form of words to be imposed for prayer . The principal scriptures for this purpose , and vnto which the rest may be reduced , are Numb. 6. 23. 24. Math. 6. 9. Luk. 11. 2.

It is a troublesome thing that that these Ministers thus vrge the letter of the scriptures : as if the quaestion were not about their sense , and interpretation : which they should prove to be for their stinted service : as they should also disprove our reasons to the contrary . But herein they are vtterly silent , and think it sufficient to inculcate the words , Thus shall ye blesse the children of Israel , Numb. 6. 23. Mat. 6. 9. Luk. 11. 2. and say vnto them &c: & , when you pray , say thus , Our father &c. even as the Papists vrge these words this is my body .

First then wee do acknowledge these words to be in the scriptures by them cited : 2. wee hold it lawfull to vse those very words in our-prayers , all , or any part of them , if wee be therevnto guided by * * Iude , 20. Rom. 8. 26. 27. the Holy Ghost in whom we must alwayes pray , and by whose help we must make our requests vnto God . But the quaestion is , whether Moses tyed , and stinted the Preists to that form of words in blessing the people : and whether Christ tyed , and stinted his disciples to that very form of words for prayer , so to be vsed by the one , and other , without alteration , addition , or diminution .

And that this is not the meaning of the holy Ghost , I do manifest by these Reasons .

First , these particles thus , or on this manner , & say , do not vsually I. in the scriptures designe , or note out the form of words , but the substance of the thing spoken of . Take an instance , or two . When the Lord sent Moses vnto “ “ Ex : 4. 22. 23. Pharaoh King of Aegypt , it was vnder these terms . Thou shalt say to Pharaoh , thus sayth the Lord , Israel my sonne , my first born : wherefore I say to thee , let my sonne go , that he may serve me : &c. But when Moses came to deliver his message in the next chapt: ver. 1. 2. he doth not ty himself to the self same words , nor vseth them . He did not vnderstand , thou shalt say to Pharaoh , & thus sayth the Lord , of the form of words , but of the substance of the thing . The same in effect may be sayd of † † Gen: 24. 12. with 42. &c Abrahams servant going about a wife for Isaak , who , relating to Laban the prayer he made for direction in the buesines , doth not vse the same words , when he tels him what he sayd in his prayer . It seems in his vnderstanding , a man might say thus , & thus , in prayer , though he vsed not the same words if he spake to the same purpose .

Many more scriptures might I bring , as others have done before me , to prove , that these words , and particles , ( upon which these men would recken the words of their prayers do no way enjoyn any such stint of words , and sillables , but onely a similitude of matter , and are for direction therein . II.

It is evident in the scriptures , that neyther Moses , nor the Preists , or other holy men stinted themselves to these words . 1 Sam. 1. 17. and 2. 20. Deut. 33. 1. 2. &c. 2 Chron. 6. 3. 4. &c. III.

Thirdly , why do not the ministers now ty themselves to this form of words in blessing the people : they being * * Isa: 66. 21. Gal: 6. 16. the Lords Preists , and Levites , & the Ch: , the Israel of God ? This blessing was no ceremony , or shadow to be abolished , but moral , & perpetual .

4. If the Lord Iesus in directing his disciples to pray , praescribe IIII. them a certayn form of words , to be vsed , when he bids them pray thus , or after this manner : & when they pray , say , then eyther Mathew , or Luke misse in Christs intendement ▪ for they ( as all may see ) record not the same certayn form of words . If defence be made , that they speak of two severall tymes , wherein Christ gave this direction , I answer such a man , that if that be graunted , it makes against him : for Christ intended the same thing in both places , & at both times : wherevpon it followes that the vse of a certayne form of words , was no part of Christs intendement .

It is evident that these words of Christ , pray thus , and when you pray , say , are a commandement , binding his Church to the worlds end , in all places , and at all tymes : and that when you pray , say , is V. as much as ▪ whensoever , or ●● what tyme soever , you pray say : as , when they deliver you up , Math. 10. 19. when one sayth I am Pauls , &c. 1 Cor. 3. 4. when ye come together &c. Chap. 14. 26. is as much as , when or at what tyme soever , they deliver you ; when soever one sayth , I am Pauls : whensoever yee come together . And to let passe all other scriptures , in the 6 of Mathew where Christ delivers this form , & speaks of this , and the like matters , when thou givest thine almes , v : 2. when thou prayest , v : 5. when ye fast , v : 16. that is , whensoever thou givest almes , fastest , or prayest . Wherevpon it followeth necessarily , that , if Christ the Lord intended a set form of words , when he directed his disciples to pray , and bad them , when ye pray , say , then , whensoever we pray , we must vse that very form of words , & none other . For the words of Christ are not a permission , as the Ministers insinuate , but an absolute commaundement : neyther is the quaestion , as they vntruely lay it down , whether it be lawfull to vse these very words in prayer , but whether it be necessary , and that when , or whensoever we pray : for that which Christ intends , he commands : and what he commaunds , he commaunds to be done , when , or whensoever , wee pray . And these things considered , it is no absurd obiection , ( as these Ministers make it ) that we never read the Apostles did use this prescript form of words in prayer . For reading of many formes of prayer they vsed , and never of this , wee are assured that Christ did not stint them to this form of words , nor commaund them when they prayed to vse them : for then they had sinned , when they prayed , and vsed them not .

Christ Iesus in the same place teacheth his disciples as well touching VI. almes , & fasting , as prayer : and in particular , that * * v. 17. when Mat. ● . they fast , they should annoynt their head , and wash their face . Now who is so ignorant as to affirm , that Christs purpose herein is to bind them to these ceremonies ? and why not as well , as to ty them to these very words ? He sayth as well , when thou fastest , annoynt thine head , and wash thy face , as when thou prayest , say , Our Father , &c. yea touching prayer it self , he as well directs , and teacheth his disciples what , or how to do , as what , or how to speak . He sayth as well , when thou prayest , enter into the Chamber , & shut v. 6. the dore , as when thou prayest , say , Our Father : As then the purpose of Christ in teaching his disciples , when they fast to annoynt their head , and wash their face ; and when they pray , to enter into their chamber , and to shut the dore , is not to ty them to that very form of ceremony , but to advertise them to beware of all hypocrisy , & vain-glory in these things : so when he teacheth them to pray on this manner , his purpose is not to ty them to the very form of words , but to admonish them to beware of all vayn bablings , and superstitious repetitions : and to ask in fayth of God the father who knowes their wants beforehand . v : 7. 8.

Lastly , as wee are commaunded to pray the Lords prayer , ( as it VII . is called ) so are we to preach the word of God . But as if a man take 2 Tim. 4. ● . the scriptures , and read them , or some part of them vnto the people , or commit the same to memory , and so vtter it , this is not preaching : so neyther is the reading of this praescript , or repeating it by memory , praying . Indeed in preaching we must ever make the scriptures our text , and groundwork , and must speak according vnto them : and may take a verse , two , or more , & vse them , even word for word , as they fit our occasion , and may be applyed to our purpose : so in praying we must make this praescript ever ( as it were ) the text , and groundwork of our prayer , & must pray according vnto it : and may vse a petition , two , or more , or all in , or of it , even word , for word , if so the holy Ghost ( by whose immediate teachings , and suggestions all our requaests must be put vp ) do direct vs , and that wee can apply the same words to our present occasions , and needs . The same which I have sayd touching the preaching of the word , may be added in respect of the administration of the sacraments .

The Apostle writing to the Corinthians about the Lords supper , advertiseth them , that † † 1 Cor. 11. 23. he received of the Lord , that which he delivered vnto them . Now he that looks into the 3. Evangelists , that mention this institution , and compares eyther one of them with Math. 27. 26. Mark . 14. 22. Luk 23. 19. another , or Paul with any of them , he shall finde , that the ordinance stands not at all in the prescript form of words , wherein they all differ ech from others . It is evident that the Lord administred this supper but once : & that in a certayn form of words . And that which the Lord delivered vnto his disciples , these four pen-men of the Holy Ghost delivered to the Churches . Now the great liberty , which they vse in respect of forms of words ▪ ( wherein they differ ech from others ) shewes , how litle this institution ▪ and ordinance stands vpon such stints : as also how far it is from the meaning of Christ , that the Churches should be thus short tyed in the vse of them . The same may be sayd of the ordinance of prayer , by Christ given to his Church : wherein the two Evangelists , that mention it , do vse the same liberty : as most likely would the other two also have done , in respect of forms of words , had they made mention of it .

But graunt , that the words of Christ , pray after this manner , & when you pray , say , are to be interpreted , as these men would have it , yet do I except agaynst their service-book in a double respect . The first is , that the reading of prayers vpon a book hath no justification from them . If it be sayd , that to commit a certayn form of words to the memory , and from it to vtter them , and to read them vpon a book , are all one , I deny the consequence : and though I approve not of the former , yet is the latter far the worse . For ( besides , that he , that readeth , hath an other speaking to him ( as it were ) even he , whose wryting he reades , and himselfe speaks not to God , but to the people , to whom he reads ) in the former , there is a kynde of vse , though not lawfull of the gift of memory : where in the other book-praying there is no vse of that , or any other gift .

Secondly , it followes not , that bycause the Lord Iesus might impose a set forme of words to be vsed for prayer , that therefore the Lord Bbs of England may impose an other set form so to be vsed . The consequence is notably both erroneous , and presumptuous . So bold indeed are they , and so high do they advance themselves in their ordinances , and impositions . Bycause the Lord hath separated one day from the rest , and made it holy , therefore they wil also make other holy dayes : bycause Christ hath set down canons , and constitutions for the government of his Church , therefore they also will have their canons , and constitutions : bycause he hath appointed a form of administring the sacraments , therefore they may appoynt another form , yea and that such a one as altereth , and inovateth the very nature of the words of institution . For where Christ would have the words of institution published , and preached , this is my body which is given for you , they Luke 22. 19. 1 Cor: 11. 24. turn this preaching into a prayer , the body of our Lord Iesus Christ , was given for the , preserv thy body and soul into eternall life &c. repeating the same also to every severall communicant : which Christ would have pronounced once for all , according to the nature of the ordinance . And thus they will † † Ezech: 43. ● . set their thresholds by the Lords threshouldes , and their postes by his postes : and rather then they will want rowm for their own , they wil pare of part his , yea wholy dimolish them . If the Lord Iesus appoynt one ordinance for his Church , they will appoynt an other ; and surely , so they may lawfully : if they be , as they are reputed , & protend themselves , Lord Bishops , and Arch Bishops of the Church , and spirituall Lords , over Gods heritage .

To these things I will adde a few reasons agaynst this read stinted service , and so conclude both the matter , and the book .

And first it cannot be an ordinance of Christ , bycause the Church I. may perfectly , and entyrely worship God , without it , with all the parts of holy and spirituall worship ; as did the Apostolick Churches for many years before any such leiturgy was devised , & imposed : and as do many Churches now : and as appeares by that which is done before & after sermons , where no such stint is read of , what may be done at all times , and in all places , where able & lawfull ministers of the new testament , are . II.

As the administrations of the publique prayers of the Church is a principall duty of the minister , for which a speciall gift and Isa: 56. 7. Math: 21. ●3 . Act. 6. 4 qualification is required , so cannot the reading of a service book be that administration , bycause no speciall , or ministeriall gift is required for it . III.

The two feet vpon which the dumb ministery stands , like Naebuchad-nezzars Image vpon the feet of iron , and clay , are the book of Dan: 2. common prayer , and of homilyes : the reading of the former ( which is the right foot ) serving them for prayer , & of the other for preaching : which feet , if they were smitten as were the other , with the stone cut without hands , the whole Idol-preisthood would fall , and be broken a peices , as that other image was . And here I would intreat them , that have written , and are perswaded so much agaynst the reading of the Apocrypha books of the Machabies , & those which follow them , in the congregation , especially them , which have so sufficiently dealt against Mr Hutton , & his fellowes , to turn the face of their Arguments generall agaynst the Apocryphall service book ; and they will silence that book , as well , and as much , as the rest ( like women in the Church ) as they speak .

As it were a ridiculous thing for a child , when he would aske IIII. of his father bread , fish , or any other thing he wanted , to read it to him out of a paper : so is it for the children of God ( especially for the ministers of the gospell in their publique ministrations ) to read vnto God their requests , for their own , and the Churches wants , out of a service book , wherin they are also stinted to words and sillables : by which also they , and the people with them , are Ezech: 4. 16. vnder a greater death , then if they ate bread by weight , & drank water by measure .

Lastly if this vse of the service-book be sanctified of God for the publique , and solemn prayers of the Church , & so deemed by these ministers , and others the forward people in the kingdom , what is the reason why they so seldom , yea or rather never , vse the same , or any other of the like nature in their familyes , but do on the contrary lay aside all books save that of the spirit , by whose alone , and immediate direction they are taught , and according to whose suggestions , they do put vp their supplications vnto God ? Do we not all know , that the more forward sort of proffessours would be ashamed of any such book prayers in their families . And hath the Lord sanctified that for his house which is not holy , and good enough for their houses ? will they worship God with that worship publiquely , whereof they are ashamed privately ? can private men bring forth the conceptions of the spirit without the help of any such service book , and do the lawfull ministers of the gospell stand in need of it for the manifestation of the spirit of prayer given them , for the vse , and comfort of the Church ? * * Mal: 1. 14. cursed be the deceiver , which hath in his flock a male , and voweth , and sacrificeth vnto the Lord a corrupt thing . If these ministers then , and others , have a better sacrifice of prayer and thanksgiving , then their service book ( as their own practise both private , and publique ( when they have liberty , ) shewes they have ) and that so themselves judge , see them learn to feare him , that is a great King , and whose name is terrible , even the Lord of hostes . To him through Christ the onely “ mayster and teacher of his Church , be prayse for ever . He , even God the Father , for his sonne Christs sake , shew his mercy in all our aberrations , and discover them vnto vs more , and more ; keep vs in , and lead vs into his truth : giving vs to be faythfull in that wee have received , whether it be lesse or more ; & praeserving vs against all those scandalls ; wherewith the whole world is filled ,

Amen .