The Protestant Church existent, and their faith professed in all ages, and by whom with a catalogue of councels in all ages, who professed the same. Written, by Henry Rogers D.D. prebendary of Hereford.

THE PROTESTANT CHVRCH EXISTENT .

CHAP. I. Master Fisher observeth neither Art , nor Order in answering Master Rogers .

MAster Fisher , or whosoever you are , that undertake for him ; if you would have done by me , as I did by Master Fisher ; namely , have set downe all my grounds , and answered to them in particular , as I did to Master Fishers Propositions ; it might have given the Reader better satisfaction , who thereby might see , whether we doe agree in any thing that I have written , or dissent in all ; whether you reject all those grounds which I laid , or admit of some ; as I did by your Propositions , approving some , rejecting others ; In solutione argumentorum duae tantum solutiones , distinguendo , vel tollendo , Ego autem hic de Propositionibus loquor . and in those you reject , if you would have answered to them in their place , & punctually , and not go roving , so to puzzle the Reader with disorder . I tooke those Propositions that were offered to me as they lay , I answered to every period , vel concedendo , aut distinguendo , aut negando , either granting , distinguishing , or denying ; and where I found any ambiguity in your termes , or sentences , I desired you to explicate , and cleere the same , which you have not done ; yet you know that no disputation may be undertaken , no Argument framed , no Treatise composed without this ; no not so much as one bare Proposition , or Sentence may subsist with aequivocation , and amphibologie , words or sentences of double signification , and doubtfull sense , untill they be cleared by explications , and distinctions . This you know to be the advice , and practise of the Philosophers , and Divines which have written . But such are your termes & Propositions as that they seeme to be made of purpose in ambiguous words , or contexture , so to leave open some starting hole , or evasion , and answering your Adversary out of order , to draw a curtaine before the understanding , not onely of the Reader , but also of your Adversary , Aristot . Elench . 2. We are ignorant of what wee formerly knew when it is misplaced and disordered . and your selfe , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Thus have I beene served by others besides you . Is not this catching at a word here , and passing by a whole side of a leafe elsewhere , without saying one word to it ? afterward leape backe a leafe , or two , and snarle at an Argument , or snap at a distinction , and so away ; Is not this ( I say ) like the Dog drinking of Nilus , lap a little , and runne away ; lap againe , and runne away ? This was applyed by one to Antony , flying after Cleopatra from the Battell at Actium , who being asked , Quid agit Antonius ? Answered , Quod canis ad Nilum , lambit , & fugit : so much was hee besotted with that Harlot . Thus you the Champion of that Purple Harlot that sitteth upon the seven hils , fight her quarrels , a snatch and away , a snap and be gone ; or if you make a short stand , you will but shew your teeth , grin , snarle , but hardly bite . That I may draw you from this course of disorder , I will put downe what Master Fisher proposed , what I answered , and then what this Author replied , or where hee did not reply .

CHAP. II. The occasion , and time when this Author Master Rogers was first interessed in this matter .

ATt that time , when our now Soveraigne was in Spaine , a Gentleman delivered me those Propositions following , in the presence of divers , I being then in London 100. miles from my dwelling , and my Bookes . That night I delivered this answer following after Master Fishers Propositions . The Gent: was then almost become Romanist , having beene ( not many dayes before ) at Masse in the Spanish Embassadors house , and Master Fisher coming to this Gent: Chamber left those Propositions with him .

The like verbatìm the Right Honourable Earle of O. did shew me , saying , that it was all written with Master Fishers owne hand .

The Propositions are these .

Fisher .

IT being granted that there must bee a Visible Church in all Ages , of which all sorts must learne Faith necessary to salvation .

Rogers in his first Answere .

The perpetuall Visibilitie of the Church I acknowledge : but I pray you set mee downe what a visible Church is ? and what you meane by these words , all sorts , whether Children dying before they come to yeares of discretion to learne this Faith , be not after Baptisme parts of the Visible Church ?

Secondly , what you meane by learne ? Whether 1. An actuall explicit knowledge : Or 2. An habituall onely implicit knowledge .

Thirdly , what points of Faith you hold necessary to Salvation .

Rogers second Answer .

That some grounds must be layd for all Discourse , I thinke my Adversary will not deny , seeing all discourse is a drawing of Conclusions from some precedent received premisses , whether of Principles naturally manifest , and cleare of themselves , or of some supposed received , and agreed upon . Some grounds I laid , which Mr. Fisher , or his Second here , would have the Reader beleeve hee hath refuted ; for almost every Page hath this Title , Master Rogers most weake grounds . But how effectually he hath performed it , shall appeare in his place .

The first thing I requested here of M. Fisher , was to define a visible Church , and to explaine an ambiguous phrase , both as necessary grounds as may be for discourse : for ambiguities are thickets wherein Sophisters doe hide themselves , and the first grand fallacy which they use , who would deceive others , and doe often deceive themselves ; neither is the Respondent bound by Rules of Art to answer such an Opponent .

Aristot . Elench . 2. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . It is cleare , that an aequivocator deserves no answer .

The other ground which I requested him to lay , was a definition of the visible Church . To this the Author of this Treatise giveth no answer , although if he have any Schoole-learning , hee must confesse , that this is the first ground to be layd , and best meanes to begin any Treatise , to attaine exact knowledge of what we enquire after , and to resolve all doubts that may arise : Without this all Disputations are full of difficulties , saith Arist. This is the scope of all Logick , saith Zabarel your learned Logick and Philosophie Reader of Padua . You propose a question , Whether the Protestants be a Church : what more requisite here , than to explicate your Termes , and define a Church , which I formerly requested you to doe , and now againe make the same motion .

Fisher .

The Question propounded by M. Fisher at the entreatie of a Gentleman , who desired satisfaction , was :

Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages ? especially in the ages before Luther ?

And whether the names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors ?

Rogers in his first Answer .

A Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doe , was visible in all ages : and I do undertake to prove it out of good Authors .

Rogers in his second Answer .

To this M. Fisher or his Second have made no reply , not as much as to say , whether that will serve their turne , or whether I must shew the names of Protestants in all ages . If this later , then may I require of M. Fisher , or any other Iesuit , to shew mee the names of Iesuits in all ages , whose name began within these hundred yeares , or not much more , and for defect of such names argue against them thus :

They who are of the Church can shew their names to have been in all ages since Christ .

But no man can shew the name of Iesuits to have been in all ages since Christ .

Ergo : No Iesuite is of the Church .

If I should call upon you for the names of Iesuits , I should serve you as you serve us : but I wil not use such poore miserable shifts as these , which are no other then the cavils of men that have nothing to say that is worth the hearing , as I will after shew in his due place . Let this suffice for this place ; I professe , that if Master Fisher or any other Iesuit can shew me , that a Church professing the same faith which the Iesuits now doe , was visible in all ages , I will be of their faith , though they can not shew me the names of Iesuits in those former times .

Fisher . CHAP. III. M. Fisher undertooke to defend the negative part , so as it did belong to his Adversary to prove the Affirmative .

MAster Fisher explicated the meaning of his Question to bee , that first , His Adversarie should set downe

Names of men in all ages whom they thought to bee Protestants .

Secondly , that they should shew out of good Authours proofe that they were Protestants

Thirdly , that they should defend them to hold nothing contrary to the doctrine of Protestants contained in the 39. Articles , unto which all English Ministers are sworne .

Rogers in his first Answer .

To the First , I wil shew the names of such as maintained our now Faith in all ages , and bring good proofe .

To the second , the Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all ages , who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some doctrines established in the said Councell .

To the third . It is no prejudice to our Faith , if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions not concerning Faith , as long as they maintaine our faith .

Fisher his Question .

Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages , especially in the ages before Luther ? And whether the names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors ?

Rogers .

Mr. Fisher , you here confound two Propositions , or Questions , delivering them both as one , whereas they are very different , and may subsist the one without the other . For a Protestant Church may bee extant in all ages , and yet no names of the Professors to be found for every age ; and this existence of such a Church may be proved by generall testimony of History , as that the Christian Religion was here in Britaine before the comming of Augustine the Monke , Hist. Angl. l. 2. c. 2. may be proved out of Beda , who maketh mention of British Bishops , but nameth none of them . In vita Constantini . lib. 3. c. 18. Here M. Fisher and his Second would say , Shew me their names , or I will not grant there were any . Let us ascend a little higher ; wee may prove it out of Eusebius 300 yeeres before that this Country was Christian .

Here Mr. Fisher would say , Shew the names of those Christians , or I will not beleeve it . So it is plaine that these are two Questions ; Arist. Elench . 2. c. 17. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . It is not well to require one answer to two questions . This is as if a man should aske whether Iohn a Nox , and Iohn a Stiles be at home , when the one is forth , the other at home ; and enjoyne the Respondent to answer to both at once yea , or no ; by which answer he must speake an untruth , because the questions are two really distinct . This is a trick of Sophistry , M. Fisher ; let me give you one instance more . If I should aske M. Fisher , whether hee were a man , or not ; and whether hee could shew mee the names of his Ancestors in all ages untill Adam ? would you give me one answer unto both ? if affirmative , then you had a great taske , and such as I think you neither can performe , nor would undertake : if negative were your answer to both , then you are no man . You would think it unreasonable that I should tye you thus to prove your selfe a man . Thinke it as unreasonable , that you should tye me thus to shew my selfe a Christian , especially considering this kind of proofe is but weake , uncertaine , full of exceptions , and at the most but humane , Cui potest subesse falsum , the testimonies of men , qui & falli possunt , & fallere , who may deceive , and be deceived .

You would thinke it reasonable , that if you were to prove your selfe a man , a humane creature , or that you are descended from Adam , I should leave the maner of proofe to your self , & you would go to work a shorter way , & more effectually thus :

Every living creature consisting of a reasonable soule and humane bodie , is a man .

I am a living creature consisting of such a soule , and such a bodie :

Ergo : I am a man .

This would give me satisfaction , I would not reject it , and bid you shew the names of your Ancestors out of Histories in all ages , or you are no man .

You would have me prove my selfe a Christian : give me leave to chuse , and frame mine owne Argument thus :

Whosoever doth professe that faith which is , and ever hath bin required of those who by Baptisme are made Christians , is therein baptized , & doth therin continue , is a Christian .

But I was baptized in that faith , and doe therein continue , and professe the same .

Ergo : I am a Christian.

Will you now , M. Fisher , say unto mee , Not so ; but you must shew me a Catalogue of those who held your faith in all ages , or you are no Christian , you have no Church . Is this your charitie , M. Fisher ? will you not grant me as a Christian ? what I grant you as a man ?

Bellarmine , Baronius , Valenza , Aquinas , and ascending higher , Ruffinus , Cyrillus , Tertullian , Irenaeus , tell mee you can require no more for an explicit faith , such as profession requires , at my hands , then this , which all children in our Churches are taught to beleeve , to know , and to professe : adding this implicit faith , that they , besides the Articles of the Apostles Creed , are prepared to entertaine , & will believe all things revealed in the word of God . I will begin with Valenza , who saith : Tom. 3. disp. 1. c. 1. p. 5. Nota inter omnes orthodoxos convenire , articulos fidei Catholicis credendos esse illos qui Apostolorum Symbolo continentur . Note , that it is agreed amongst all those who are right beleevers , that the Articles of faith which Catholiques ought to beleeve , are those which are contained in the Apostles Creed . If there were any other Articles , he should not have said , these were the Articles , but some of the Articles . Againe , the same Valenza saith ; Now in the time of grace there is a command said upon all , that of necessitie they must explicitè credere , i. actually know , and immediatly beleeve those Articles of faith which are contained in the Apostles Creed ; Et sic decent communitèr Theologi , & D. Thomas ; This is the common doctrine of Divines , and so saith Aquinas . But other truths of faith , which besides those Articles of the Creed , are contained either in the holy Scriptures , or in the definitions of the Church , Non necessarium est necessitate medij , an t praecepti explicitè credi à vulgaribus fidelibus : They are not necessarily to be beleeved by common Christians , either as a meanes without which men cannot be saved , or by a necessitie imposed , or commanded . Wherein observe how the Iesuit addeth , and paralelleth Definitions of the Church to the Scripture , whereas Aquinas cited by him saith thus : Dicendum est ergò quod fidei objectum per se , Q 2. Art. 5. est id per quod homo beatus efficitur , ut supra dictum est . Per accidens autem aut secundariò se habent ad objectum virtutis omnia quae in sacra Scriptura divinitùs tradita continentur , sicut quod Abraham habuit duos filios ; quod David fuit filius Isai , & alia hujusmodi . Quantum ergo ad prima credibilia quae sunt articuli fidei , tenetur homo explicitè credere , sicut & tenetur habere fidem . Quantum autem ad alia credibilia non tenetur homo explicitè credere , sed solum implicitè , vel in preparatione animi , in quantum paratus est credere quicquid divina Scriptura continet : sed tunc solum hujusmoditenetur explicitè credere , Q. 1. Art. 8 quando hoc ei constiterit in doctrina Fidei contineri . Wee must therefore conclude , that the proper object of Faith is that by which a man is made happy , as we have said before . But accidentally , and secondarily all those things belong unto the object of that vertue , which are delivered from God , and contained in Scripture ; as for example , that Abraham had two Sonnes , and that David was the Sonne of Ishai , and such like . Therefore as farre as concernes those prime objects of mans beliefe which are the Articles of Faith , a man must beleeve the same expresly , as hee must have Faith . But as for other objects of Faith a man is not bound to believe them expresly , but onely implicitely , or in a preparation of minde to belieue whatsoever is contained in the holy Scripture : but then he is bound to belieue those things expressely , when it shall plainely appeare unto him that they are contained in the doctrine of Faith . Thus farre that Schooleman .

To the same effect Carbo the best Epitomizer that I haue seen , who in his smaller Booke hath all the marrow of Aquinas his Summes . The next shall be Baronius .

Hoc ipsum Symbolum Catholica Ecclesia semper adeo est venerata , ut in sanctis Conciliis Oecumenicis , Baron . 44. n. 18. quasi basis quaedam & fundamentum structurae Ecclesiasticae consueverit , imprimis recitari . The Catholique Church did alwaies so farre reverence this Creede , that it was a Custome to repeate the same in holy Generall Councels as a ground-worke and foundation of all Ecclesiasticall buildings , ( saying moreover concerning the Romane Church ) that it had preserved the same Apostles Creed , sincerè , & illibatè , without any addition or diminution , as Ruffinus hath testified in these words : In divers Churches some things haue beene added , but in the Church of Rome , Adjectionem unius saltem sermonis non admittit auditus , Their eares abhorre to heare the addition of one sentence .

Bellarm. Tom. 4. lib. 1. de Iustificatione cap. 9. I am verò quod vetus Ecclesia senserit , ac tradiderit de fide ad justificationem , & salutem necessaria ; quid ea videlicet sit , & quod objectum habeat non potest clarius intelligi quam Symbolo fidei , quod Catechumenis initio traditur , ut cum fide recta , & salvâ ad lavacrum Regenerationis accedant . Concerning that Faith which is necessary to Iustification and salvation , what was the opinion of the Primitive Church , and what it did deliver concerning the same ; namely , what Faith is , and what object it hath , cannot more cleerely bee understood then by that Creede which was delivered to those that were Catechized before Baptisme , that so they might come to the Laver of Regeneration with a right and sound Faith . Tom. 3 lib. 1. de Baptis . cap. 24. He saith that the repeating of this Creed is the fourth Ceremony of Baptisme , of which Ceremony mention is made , as he there writeth , by Clemens , Dionysius , Origen , Cyprian , Cyrill , Hillary , Hierom , Augustine .

And that the summe , and whole object of Faith is therein contained , though briefely , Saint Augustine doth teach , Serm. 115. de tempore , besides others that teach the same , where ( saith Bellarm: ) he doth define the Apostles Creede , in these words , Est inquit Symbolum comprahensio fidei nostrae simplex , brevis , plena : ut simplicitas consulat audientium rusticitati , brevitas memoriae , plenitudo doctrinae . The Creed is plaine , briefe and a full comprisall of our Faith , that the plainesse may helpe the simplicitie , brevitie may helpe the memory , and the fulnesse may provide for the learning of the hearers .

Lib. 1. c. 2. 3. 4. Lib. advers. Praxiam . Saint Irenaus doth expound the rule of the Christian Faith , the same also is done by Tertullian : but both of them doe teach , that nothing else is to be believed besides the Articles of the Apostles Creed , although they haue not the name of the Creede . So saith Bellarm: lib. 1. de Iust. c. 9. Leo the first , ep. 13. doth charge Eutiches to haue made a dissention contrary to the entirenesse of the Catholique Faith . Est siquidem ipsius Catholici Symboli brevis , & perfecta confessio , quae duodecem Apostolorum totidem est signata sententiis . For in the Apostles Creed is contained a perfect confession of Faith . Thus he is cited by Binius , Tom. 1. Conciliorum pag. 946.

Baronius Anno 1016. num. 1. saith , That one Simeon a holy , man of Armenia comming to Rome , and there being accused of Heresie , and demanded what faith hee was of ? a a He made a perfect confession of faith , by rehearsing the Apostles Creed , &c. Respondens Catholicae , & Apostolicae fidei perfectionem ita confitendo perdocuit , qualitèr per universum orbem , Apostolorum Symbolum in Nicaena Synodo peroratum clara voce personuit . And by and by after Baronius addeth these words : Innotuit protinus Papae , & omnibus qui aderant virum Dei ( scilicet Simeonem ) verae fidei esse professorem . Lastly , the sufficiency of this Creed is acknowledged not onely by those which I have above named , but also the Councell of Ephesus concluding , doth repeat this Creed , adding these words : Huic sanctae fidei omnes affentiantur oportet , est enim piè sufficienterque ad totius orbis utilitatem exposita . Let all men assent to this holy Faith , for it is piously , and sufficiently expounded to the benefit of the whole world .

Having thus out of the Fathers , Schoolemen , Councels , and your owne Writers shewed the Antiquitie , necessitie , trueth , perfection , sufficiencie , and fulnesse of my Faith in which I was baptized , and which all wee of the Protestant Churches doe professe , how can you say that we are not of the Church , or require us to adde other Articles unto these in which wee all have been baptized , and in which alone , not onely wee , but all of your Church , and all Churches of the world since the Apostles times have been baptized , been made Christians , been admitted into the Church ? This is the Covenant of faith as well in your Church as in ours : for there is no other profession of faith in Baptisme amongst you , but the Apostles Creed ; there is no mention there , no promise , no covenant that wee doe beleeve unwritten Traditions , Indulgences , Purgatorie , Invocation of Saints , seven Sacraments , worshipping of Images , Communion under one kinde , Transubstantiation , and the Primacie of the Romish Church . When a Farmour is told , that he hath forfeited his Lease , that he hath broken his Covenants ; he will aske in what point ? and when it is told him in particular wherein , he repaires unto his Lease , lookes upon his Covenants ; and if this which is layd to his charge be not there expressed , hee will reply ; It is not h●ere , I am not bound unto it , it is no Covenant of mine ; and his Land-lord were unjust to presse him beyond his Covenant .

Wee have made a Covenant with God in Baptisme , we are admitted Tenants in his Church ; you say wee have forfeyted our Grant , broken our Covenants , we are no longer Tenants , we are no more of the Church . I aske you , why ? you say , because I will not beleeve your new Creed , and that the Pope is head of the Church ( for that is your primarius fidei articulus . Bellarm. to Blackwell . ) I reply , there is no such thing in my Covenant ; I was baptized in no such faith , I was made a member of Christ , I was not made a member of the Pope , I will leave that for you who make him your head . And thus farre of explicite faith , of justifying faith necessary to salvation , of the primary fundamentall propositions which belong to faith per se , non per accidens , out of which I will collect some few Arguments :

Whosoever was baptized into , and still doth professe a whole , full , perfect , true , sufficient faith , is of the Church .

But the Protestants were baptized into , and still doe professe a whole , full , perfect , true , sufficient faith .

Therefore the Protestants are of the Church .

Every word of the Major and Minor is prooved in this Chapter , in that I have proved all these titles to belong to the Apostles Creed .

A second Argument .

Whosoever doe professe that Faith by which men are made Christians , doe still continue Christians .

But the Protestants doe professe that faith by which men are made Christians .

Ergo : The Protestants are Christians , and consequently of the Church .

A third Argument .

To prove that those Doctrines of their new Creed can be no Articles of faith , because the Articles of the Apostles Creed being already perfect and compleat , can admit of no essentiall addition ; and all Articles must be essentiall , quia per se .

There can be no essentiall addition to that which is perfect and compleat , as the Apostles Creed is .

But the Articles of Faith are essentiall unto Faith .

Ergo : No new Articles may be added to the Apostles Creed , being perfect and compleat .

CHAP. IV. Of the totall object of faith , as it includeth not onely the primary essentiall matters of faith , but also the secondary and accidentall matters contained in the revealed truth , and that from hence demonstrations may bee drawne to prove the Protestants to be a Church .

THose things we beleeve by an infused divine faith , are of two sorts : 1. Some prime , proper , essentiall , as those things contained in the Apostles Creed . 2. Some other secondary , accidentall , and common to other habits or vertues besides faith , to other persons besides the faithfull ; as morall precepts belong to Charitie properly , and are common to Christians and Infidels , revealed not onely by the supernaturall light of Gods word , but also by the naturall light of reason in man , both from God ; but the one written by God in the day of Creation , the other manifested by his Sonne in the day of Redemption . Of the former sort are the ten Commandements , which were knowne even to the Heathen , Dixitque semel nascentibus author . He that readeth Plato , Lucan . Aristotle , Tullie , Diogenes Laertius , the Poets , Greeke and Latine ; the Latine , Greeke , Aegyptian , Chaldean , Indian , Aethiopian Lawes , may there find , though not in the same excellent order , nor without some mixture of drosse , all the Decalogue . And so deepe was the impression of this Law in the wisest of those Heathen , that no Oracle could prevaile with them to crosse , or cancell what the Law of Nature delivered as Principles ( which alone is properly the Law of Nature . ) Excellent in this kind is that speech of Catoes in Lucan , who being advised by Labienus to consult with the Oracle of Iupiter Ammon , said unto him , What wouldest thou have mee to demand of the Oracle ;

An noceat vis ulla bono ? Fortunaque perdat

Opposita virtute minas laudandaque velle

Sit satis , & nunquam successu crescat honestum ?

Scimus , & hoc nobis non altius inseret Ammon .

He that shall reade Phocilides , a very ancient Greeke Poet , shall there finde a Store-house of excellent morall Precepts , as consonant to the writings of Moses and Salomon , as if they had been thence drawne .

Aquinas , Bellarm. Valenza , & alij . All Divines of greatest note of your owne side hold that of the Apostle , Hebr. 11. v. 1. Faith is the substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things not seene , to be a definition of faith ; and then the proper object of faith must bee non apparentia , non visa , things not evident to the naturall man , to the eye of reason , such as these morall Precepts are which I last mentioned : Lib. 1. de Iustific . c. 4. So that howsoever Bellarmine doe cavill with that distinction of Historicall Faith , and justifying Faith , yet reason will evince the distinction to be good , and needfull : for those Histories of Esaus selling his Birth-right , of Abrahams two wives , of Dathans rebellion , of Davids adulterie , although they are not essentiall to explicite saving faith , yet those Stories , and whatsoever is recorded in the Word of God to have been done , or spoken , wee beleeve to have been done and spoken , although the act sometime bee wicked , and the speeches false and blasphemous ; as the murther of Vriah , the rayling of Shimei , the words of the Serpent to Eve : So the beliefe and credit we give , is not to those actions or speeches of theirs , as if the one were well done , and the other truly spoken ; for this were to justifie the false Prophets , rayling Rebels , and the Devill himselfe : but wee beleeve that Historicall Narration of the Holy Ghost , that such wicked sinnes were committed , such false blasphemous words spoken ; and shall wee not call this Faith , being a credit wee give unto the Relation , because it is by divine inspiration , in the Pen-men , not in the Actors , or first speakers , Historicall . If it bee faith , L b. 1. de Iustific . c. 9. either a justifying faith , or an historicall faith , or some other : but no other is named , and it is no justifying faith ; Ergo , an historicall faith . That it is not a justifying faith , I proove against Bellarmine out of his owne words :

The whole object if justifying Faith is contained summarily , and briefly in the Apostles Creed .

But those Stories of sinfull actions , lying Prophets , blaspheming Devills , are not at all in the Apostles Creed .

Ergo , The relations of them are no object , no article , no part of saving Faith .

If neither of saving Faith , nor any other , then of Historicall Faith .

Againe , no division of things contained in Scripture is more frequent amongst Fathers , Schoolemen , and latter Writers , Roman , & Reformed then that of Faith and life , Credenda , & facienda ; what we should beleeue , how wee should liue ; and if they be members of one division they cannot bee affirmed one of another .

As therefore those Morall precepts are rules of actions , so they belong to Charitie , it s their proper place .

As it is related , they came from God , so they are the object of Historicall Faith : So that the Articles of the Creed , wheresoever found in Scripture are the proper object of iustifying Faith . And all things that are registred and declared by the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the Prophets and Evangelists , inspired by the Holy Ghost are the object of our Faith Historicall , I say , the relation , not every thing that is related , which Historicall Faith I define , to be a supernaturall infused assent , or credit we give to the relation of things in the Word of God , as revealed from him . So that I thinke , I may say , that rightly understood , both sides doe agree thus farre .

1. That the primary , materiall compounded object of Faith , as the Schoolemen and Iesuits speake , or more plainely , that the principall propositions of Faith are in the Apostles Creede .

2. The totall object of Faith , are omnes revelationes divinae , as Valenza ; or Verbum Dei , as Bellarmine ; or rather , the divine Scripture , as the Fathers , as Aquinas , Carbo , and the Reformed Churches doe say . For Valenza doth aequivocate with his Revelationes Dei , and Bellarmine with his Verbum Dei. Who would not be glad to reade in these two great Iesuits , That such is the nature of Faith , Tom. 3. di . 1. q. 1. §. 4. p. 1. that it can assent to no Proposition , but as it is revealed by God ? So Valenza , and Faith ought to levell at nothing besides the Word of God ; for Faith cannot be certaine and infallible , unlesse it relye upon his authority who can neither deceiue , nor be deceived , So Bellarm: Who ( that desireth the peace of Sion ) would not be glad hereof ? Lib. 1. de Iustif . c. 10. I did much rejoyce when at first I read it , but when I saw that Valenza did extend his divine Revelations not onely to Canonical Writers but also to the Pope ; And Bellarmine to divide Verbum Dei , the Word of God , into Scriptum , & non scriptum ; written Word , and unwritten Traditions , my joy turned into griefe , and searching better into the Questions , I found these were poore shifts to hemme in their Pope ; for when they are prest with arguments , or Authorities of Fathers concerning the fulnesse , and sufficiency of the Word of God , Bellarmine comes in with his distinction of Verbum Dei Scriptum , & non scriptum ; saying , that the one alone is Regula partialis , a piece of a Rule ; but both together are Regula totalis , a whole Rule . Tom. 3. d. 1. q. 1. p. 1. §. 4. So Valenza dealeth by revealed verities , Vel per Canonicum Scriptorem , vel per alium legitimum definitorem fidei , whom he afterwards concludes to be the Pope .

I therefore chuse to speake as the Fathers doe ; yea , and as the more Ancient Schoolemen did , Aquinas , Carbo , and others : That the Scripture is Regula credendorum , which excludeth Bellamines Verbum non scriptum , and Valenzaes Papall decisions . And to this purpose I will cite such places of the Fathers which are acknowledged by the Adversaries to be true Fathers , and true quotations . The sacred Writers , Evangelium in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum , Irenaeus l. 3. c. 1. & columnam fidei nostrae futuram , haue delivered the Gospell unto us in the written Word to be the foundation , and pillar of our Faith . Here Bellarmines Verbum non scriptum , his unwritten Word hath no place . This Father , who lived in the first Age after the Apostles , saith , In Scripturis , in the written Word . Here Valenza's unwritten Revelations of Traditions , or Papall decisions being his definitor fidei , have no place ; to reconcile these two , Scriptum , and non Scriptum , is to overthrow the first fundamentall Propositions of all learning in the world , to reconcile contradictions . The most incompatible opposition that is ; without which being laid as a ground-worke , no man may treate of any thing . Arist. Meta . 4. ca. 10. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . It is impossible that the same thing at the same time should bee , and should not bee ; this no man can bee ignorant of , this is the first principle in Metaphysicke , in Logicke , though in other termes ( viz. ) two contradicting Propositions cannot be both true , nor both false . This is the first principle of all other Sciences , as the fornamed Author , Fonseca . Suarez . as Aquinas your great Schooleman , Fonseca and Swarez , your fellow Iesuits , and great writers upon Metaphysicke , your learned writer upon the Demonstrations , Zabarel , and others whom I could name , doe undoubtedly teach . Reconcile me Irenaeus his Scriptum est , and your non scriptum , Bellarm. de Verbo Dei . and as you have taken away the Rule of divine knowledge , by denying the sufficiencie thereof , by denying it to bee a totall Rule , but a part , a piece of a Rule , which is as much as no Rule , as a part , or piece of a man is no man ; so by denying this first principle of all humane knowledge , you take away all Naturall , and Morall Philosophie , all Logicke , all Metaphysicke , and then what remaineth but that we be no more creatures endued with reason , and your Pope shall rule us as please him : Sed habebit imperium in belluas , hee must transforme us into this beastly ignorance . Thus having taken away your distinction of Scriptum , & non Scriptum , ( which I desire may be observ'd in the rest of the Fathers that follow , for I will cite none who use not this word Scriptures , which is the written word ) I will presse my Argument thus .

First Argument .

Whosoever doth hold the foundation and pillar of Faith , is of the Church .

But the Protestants believing the Scriptures , doe hold the foundation and pillar of Faith .

Ergo : The Protestants are of the Church .

What , will you Master Fisher answer to this Argument ? will you distinguish Verbum Dei with Bellarmine ? or Revelatio Divina , with Valenza ? ad terminos , what word in my Syllogisme doe you distinguish , or what proposition doe you deny .

Lib. cont . Gentes , seu contr. Idola . The second testimony shall be Athanasius ; his words are these , Sufficiunt sanctae ac divinitùs inspiratae Scripturae ad instructionem veritatis , out of which I thus argue .

Second Argument .

Whosoever doe professe that which is sufficient to instruct them in the truth are of the Church ,

The Protestants professing the Scriptures , do professe that which is sufficient to instruct them in the truth .

Ergo : The Protestants are of the Church .

Neither is here any place for Bellarmines unwritten word , or Valenzaes unwritten revelations .

Basil . It is an Argument of infidelity , and a sure token of pride to reject any thing that is written , or to bring in any thing that is not written , saith Saint Basil , in his Sermon of the confession of Faith .

Third Argument .

But the Romànists doe add vnto the Faith , things that are not written .

Ergo , The Romanists are proude Infidels .

The Maior is Saint Basils , the Minor is your owne , not only delivered by private men , but also enacted by your Councell of Trent . Sess . 4. Anno 1546.

Fourth Argument .

Chrysost. Whatsoever is requisite unto Salvation , is wholly fulfilled in the Scriptures , saith Chrysostme , Com. in 22. Matth.

But the Protestants doe professe all that is fulfilled in the Scriptures .

Ergo , The Protestants doe professe all that is requisite unto salvation ; And doing so , sure they are of the Church , because none are saved out of the Church .

Idem Chrys. Seing we have a most exact Ballance , Levell , and Rule of all things , the sayings of the Law of God , I beseech you all , that forsaking what seemeth to this man , or what seemeth to that man , you would enquire after these out of Scripture . Thus the same Father , Hom. 13. in 2. Ep. ad Cor. I argue thus

Fifth Argument .

They who professe , and believe the most exact ballance , levell , and rule , ( of Christians ) doe continue in the Christian Church ,

But the Protestants beleeving the Scripture , or written Word , doe beleeve a perfect ballance , levell , and Rule of all things belonging to Christians .

Ergo , The Protestants are in the Christian Church .

I reverence the fulnesse of Scripture , Tertull contra Hermog . Let Hermogenes shew me that it is written , if it be not written , let him feare the woe that is denounced against them that adde , or diminish .

Sixth Argument .

They who adde to the fulnesse of the written Word , are thereby subject to a great Woe ,

But the Romanists denying the fulnesse of Scripture adde thereto unwritten Traditions .

Ergo , The Romanists are subject to great woe .

Seventh Argument .

Diabolici spiritus est aliquid extra Scripturarum Sacrarum authoritatem putare divinum . It is devilish to accompt any thing divine that is not in the written Word . Theoph.

But the Romanists doe accompt unwritten Traditions , and Papall determinations to be divine .

Ergo , The Romanists are devilish , or have a devilish spirit in them .

I will conclude with Saint Augustine .

Eighth Argument . Aug. l. 3. cont. Petil. cap. 6.

If any one either concerning Christ , or his Church , or concerning any other matter which belongeth unto Faith , or life ; I will not say , if wee , but as Saint Paul added ; If an Angell from heaven doe declare unto you any thing besides that which you have received in the writings of the Law , and the Gospell , let him be accursed .

But the Romanists doe tell us of unwritten Traditions concerning masters of Faith and life , besides the written word of the Law , and the Gospell .

Ergo , The Romanists are accursed .

I will adde more testimonies out of the same Father , both because by consent of all Divines that I have reade , both Roman and Reformed , hee is the chiefest Divine since the Apostles , and because those things which I shall alleage out of him , being versed in the same Question betweene him , and the Donatists concerning the Church , are most proper to this question betweene us and the Romanists , whether we bee a Church or no , and will answere most doubts and objections that are made herein : but seeing that this Chapter is growne so long , I will reserve it for another .

CHAP. V. Shewing out of Saint Augustine and others , that there is no other way to demonstrate a Church to bee a true Christian Church , but by the Word of God .

I Desire you Mr. Fisher , and whosoever will vouchsafe to reade these my poore Labours , to take my meaning in citing these Fathers , Schoolmen , and Iesuites which I have alledged in the precedent Chapters , not to be such , as if by their authoritie alone wee endeavour to proove our selves to be a Church ; but to shew that in matters of Faith , and in this Question of the Church no demonstrations , no strong , proper , and necessitating Arguments can bee made but out of Scripture . All other Arguments are but probable , without any necessary illation , and forrein , not proper to Theologie : As after I have done with S. Augustine , I will shew out of your owne Schoolmen .

This Father is he out of whom our later Writers have had ( next after the sacred Scriptures ) most of the excellent , solid , deepe Divinitie which they have : This was hee that was stiled Malleus Haereticorum , the Hammer of Heretikes : Sabellicus Vir super omnes qui ante eum , & post eum huc usque fuerunt mortales , admirabili ingenii acumine praeditus . A man ( as your Sixtus Senensis writeth of him ) indued with a sharpnesse of wit above all mortals that have been before him , Bibl. 5. l. 4. or after him to this time , full of humane learning ; but in the divine Scriptures by farre the most learned of all others ; and in the Exposition of Scriptures raised to so high a pitch of incomparable subtiltie , or acutenesse , ultra quam dici queat , more than the tongue of man can expresse . Dr. Kinge . This was hee of whom a learned Preacher , and powerfull speaker of ours spake in the Pulpit , that hee confuted the Heretikes so fully , answered all their objections and demands so weightily , that of him next after the Sonne of God himselfe it may bee sayd , they durst aske him no more questions . And if I in my poore judgment and reading may expresse what I have observed , and doe conceive , that was the most fruitfull age of Heresies that ever was , and some of those Heretikes so learned , especially Pelagius , the grand enemy of the grace of God , that if Saint Augustine had not been borne in those times , Pelagius , and many more had not been confuted . This man amongst other Heretikes wrote against the Donatists , who did appropriate the Church to themselves , as now the Romanists , or Papists doe : so that it is the same question now betweene us and the Papists , which was then betweene Saint Augustine and the Donatists . The Donatists did tye the Church to Africke , the Papists to Rome ; not that either the one or the other did , or doe denie Christians to be in other parts of the world , but that all men in the world must bee of their Church , and hold union with them , and dependance from them .

The first place that I will cite out of Saint Augustine , shall be his words in his second Booke of Christian Doctrine , ca. 9. All those things which doe containe faith and manners of living , are found amongst those things , quae apertè posita sunt in Scriptura , which are plainly put downe in the written Word . This doth proove what wee intend , namely , that this Quaestion of theirs , if it be necessary , is found in Scripture , and not onely so , but in plaine Scripture ; which answereth the objection of obscuritie in the Scripture , that though it bee true , that in Scriptures some things be obscure , some be plaine ; yet all necessary things are plaine in Scripture .

Ex Augustino lib. de Vnitate Ecclesiae cont. Petilianum Tom. 7. p. 109.

Cap. 2.

Inter nos & Donatistas quaestio est , ubi sit Ecclesia ? Quid ergo facturi sumus , in verbis nostris eam quaesituri , an in verbis capitis sui Domini nostri Iesu Christi ? Puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quarere debemus qui veritas est , & optimè novit corpus suum , novit enim Deus qui sunt ejus .

Cap. 3.

Sed ut dicere coeperam , non audiamus haec dico , haec dicis , sed audiamus haec dicit Dominus : sunt certè libri dominici , quorum authoritate utrique consentimus , utrique credimus , utrique servimus : ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam , ibi discutiamus causam nostram : Auferantur ergo illa de medio quae adversus nos invicem , non ex divinis Canonicis libris , sed aliundè recitamus — Quaerat fortassis aliquis , & dicat mihi , Cur ergo ista vis auferri de medio , quandò communio tua etiamsi proferantur , invicta est ? Quia nolo humanis documentis sed divinis Oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari ; si enim sanctae Scripturae in Africa sola designaverunt Ecclesiam , & in paucis Romae Rupitanis , & Montensibus , & in domo , vel patrimonio unius Hispana mulieris , quicquid de chartis aliis aliud proferatur , non tenent Ecclesiam nisi Donatista .

Si in paucis Mauris Provinciae Caesariensis eam sancta Scriptura determinat ad Rogatistas transeundum est . Si in paucis Tripolitanis , & Byzacenis , & provincialibus , Maximianistae ad eam pervenerunt . Si in solis Orientalibus , inter Arianos , & Macedonianos , & Eunomianos , & si qui illic alii sunt , requirenda est . Quis autem possit singulas quasi Haereses enumerare gentium singularum .

Si autem Christi Ecclesia Canonicarum Scripturarum divinis , & certissimis testimoniis , in omnibus Gentibus designata est ; quicquid attulerint , & undecunque recitaverint qui dicunt ecce hic Christus , ecce illic ; audiamus potius , si oves ejus sumus vocem Pastoris nostri dicentis , Nolite credere .

Istae quippè singulae in multis Gentibus ubi ista est non inveniuntur , haec autem quae ubique est , etiam ubi illae sunt invenitur : Ergo in Scripturis Sanctis Canonicis eam requiramus .

Cap. 4.

Totus Christus caput , & corpus est , quicunque de Christo rectè sentiunt , sed ab Ecclesia ita dissentiunt ut eorum communio non sit cum tota quacunque diffunditur , sed in aliqua parte seperata inveniatur , manifestum est eos non esse in Ecclesia Gatholica .

Quapropter , quia cum Donatistis nobis Quaestio est non de capite sed de corpore , id est , non de ipso Salvatore Iesu Christo , sed de ejus Ecclesia ; ipsum Caput de quo consentimus ostendat nobis corpus suum de quo dissentimus , ut per ejus verbum jam dissentire definamus . — Prioribus temporibus per Prophetas sonuit verbum , deindè per seipsum , deindè per Apostolos . — In his igitur omnibus quaerenda est Ecclesia .

Hoc etiam praedico , atque propono uti quae aperta , & manifesta deligamus : quae si in sanctis Scripturis non invenirentur , nullo modo esset vndè aperirentur clausa , & illustrarentur obscura . — Seponenda sunt quae obscurè sunt posita , & figurarum velaminibus involuta . — In talibus figuris nolo quaeramus Ecclesiam , non quia falsae sunt , sed quia interpretem quaerunt .

Cap. 6.

O Donatistae Genesin legite , Benedicentur in semine tuo omnes Gentes terrae , Genes. 22. Quid dicat Apostolus audiamus , Gal. 3. — In semine tuo quod est Christus — Ecce Testamentum Dei : quare vos irritum facitis Testamentum Dei , dicendo nec in omnibus Gentibus esse completum , & periisse jam de Gentibus in quibus erat semen Abrahae ? Quare superordinatis dicendo in nullis terris haeredem permanere Christum , nisi ubi poterit cohaeredem habere Donatum ? Non invidemus alicui ; Legite nobis hoc de lege , de Prophetis , de Psalmis , de ipso Evangelio , & Apostolicis literis legite & credimus , sicut nos vobis legimus & de Genes. & de Apostolo ; & benedicentur in te omnes tribus terrae , & in semine tuo .

Date mihi hanc Ecclesiam , si apud vos est , ostendite vos communicare omnibus Gentibus quas jam videmus in hoc semine benedici —

Cap. 7.

Quid in Prophetis , quam multa , & quam manifesta sunt testamonia Ecclesiae per omnes Gentes toto orbe terrarum diffusae . Isa. 11. — Repleta est vniversa terra ut cognoscat Dominum . Isa. 27. — Germinabit & florescet Israel , & replebitur Orbis terrarum fructu ejus . —

Psal. 27. Posui te in lucem Gentium ut sis salus usque ad fines terrae . Laetare sterilis quia non paris , erumpe , & exclama quoniam multi filii desertae , magis quam ejus quae habet virum .

Comparent isti multitudinem suam in Aphrica constitutam cum multitudine Iudaeorum per omnes terras quacunque dispersi sunt , et videant , quam sint in illorum comparatione paucissimi . Quomodo ergò de se dictum assignabunt : multi filij desertae , quam ejus quae habet virum ?

Rursus comparent multitudinem Christianorum per omnes Gentes quibus non communicant , & videant quam pauci sint in comparatione omnes Iudei , & tandem aliquandò intelligant in Ecclesia Catholica toto orbe diffusa istam prophetiam esse completam . Iam pauca de Psalmis audiamus : Cap. 8. Dabo tibi Gentes haereditatem tuam , & possessionem tuam fines terrae .

Nonne Apostolus de Praedicatoribus Novi Testamenti dictum exposuit quod scriptum est in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum , Psal. 18. & in fines orbis terrae verba eorum . Psal. 56. Et super omnem terram gloria tua : & undè gloria ejus super omnem terram , nisi quia Ecclesia ejus per omnem terram , & replebitur gloria ejus omnis terra , Psal. 71. fiat , fiat . Ite nunc vos Donatist . & clamate , non fiat , non fiat . Vicit vos Verbum Dei dicens , fiat , fiat .

Quid ad haec dicturi sint quae commemoravi ex Lege , ex Trophetis , ex Psalmis . Audiamus ipsius verbi vocem ore propriae carnis expressam : Sic scriptum ect , & sic oportebat Christum pati , & resurgere à mortuis tertio die .

Hic ipsum caput ostenditur quod ipsum se manibus discipulorum prebuit contrectandum . Vide quemadmodum de corpore adjungat quod est Ecclesia , ut nos nec in Sponso nec in Sponsa errare permittat . Et predicari ( inquit ) in nomine ejus poenitentiam , & remissionem peccatorum per omnes Gentes incipientibus ab Hierusalem ? Quid hac voce veratiùs , quid diviniùs , quid manifestiùs ? Me piget commendare verbis meis , & haereticos non pudet oppugnare verbis suis . Dicant ea testimonia quae posui de Lege , & Prophetis , & Psalmis obscura esse , & figuratè dicta , etiam aliter posse intelligi , quanquam & in eis egerim quantum potui ut nec audeant dicere . Sed ecce dicant nunquid & obscure dictum , aut aenigmatis velamento adumbratum est quod ipse Christus dixit , quia sic scriptum est , & sic opportebat Christum pati , & resurgere tertio die , & predicari in nomine ejus poenitentiam , & remissionem peccatorum per omnes Gentes . Epist. 48. Audi dicit Dominus , non dicit Donatus , aut Rogatus , aut Vincentius , aut Hilarius , aut Ambrosius , aut Augustinus , sed dicit Dominus . Quomodo ex divinis literis confidimus accipisse nos Christum manifestum si non indè accepimus & Ecclesiam manifestam . Necesse est incerti sint qui pro sua societate testimonio utuntur non divino , sed suo . Nisi cognoveris teipsum non in verbis calumniosorū , sed in testimoniis librorum meorum . In Scripturis didicimus Christum , Epist. 116. in Scripturis didicimus ecclesiam . Has Scripturas communiter habemus quare non in eis et Christum & Ecclesiam communiter retinemus . — Ecce Scripturae communes , ecce ubi novimus Christum , ecce ubi novimus Ecclesiam .

Those words of St. Augustine I apply to our present purpose , concluding in the same manner against the Romanists , as this Father did against the Donatists , changing onely Donatist for Romanist .

Cap , 2.

The Question betweene us , and the Romanists is , where is the Church ? What then shall we doe , shall we seeke for the Church in our owne words , or in the words of her Head , and our Lord Christ Iesus ? I think we ought rather to seeke her in his words , who is the Truth , and best knoweth his owne body , For the Lord knoweth who are his .

Cap. 3.

But as I began to say , let us not heare ( these words ) I say this , thou saist that ; but let us heare this , thus saith the Lord , Our master hath left books unto us , to the authority of which Bookes wee both consent , wee both beleeve , we both submit ; there let us seeke the Church , there let us examine our cause : Away with those words from amongst us which we cite not out of the Canonicall Books of God , but elswhere . — Some man peradventure wil say unto me , why wil you have those things taken away , seeing your cause , though those things were alleaged will stand invincible ? Because I would have the Church demonstrated , not by human reason , but by divine oracles . For if the holy Scriptures haue designed the Church to be in Italy alone , & in those few which concur with Rome ; whatsoever may be brought out of other Bookes , none but the Romanists do possesse the Church .

If the holy Scripture doe limit the Church to a few more of the Province of Caesarea , we must passe unto the Rogatists . If it be amongst those few of the Provinces of Tripolis , and Byzacene , the Maximinianists are come unto it . If onely amongst the Easterlings , wee must seeke for the Church amongst the Arrians , Macedonians , and Eunomians , and others , if there be any more there ; for who is able to recount the severall Haeresies of every Nation ?

But if the Church be assigned to all Nations , by divine and most certaine testimonies of Canonicall Scripture , whatsoever they shall bring , or whatsoever they shall recite , who say , Loe here is Christ , loe there is Christ ; let us rather heare , if we be his sheepe , the voice of our Shepherd , saying , Believe them not .

For those severall ( Sects ) are not found in many Nations where the Church is . But this church , which is every where , is found also where those severall ( Sects ) are : Therefore let us search for the Church in Holy Canonicall Scriptures .

Cap. 4.

Christ is wholly a Head , and a Body , whosoever have a right opinion of Christ , but doe so dissent , that they communicate not with the whole Church , wheresoever dispersed ; but with some part thereof , severed from the rest ; it is cleare , that they are not in the Catholike Church .

Wherefore , seeing the question betweene us and the Romanists is not concerning the Head , but the Body ; that is , not concerning our Saviour Iesus Christ , but concerning his Church ; let the Head , concerning whom we doe agree , shew unto us his Body , about which wee doe differ , that so by his words wee may end the difference . — In former times this word was delivered by the Prophets , then by himselfe , then by his Apostles . — In all these the Church is to be sought for .

This also I warne aforehand , that wee chuse such places of Scripture as are cleare and manifest : for unlesse there were such to bee found in the holy Scripture , there were no means how those things might be laid open which are shut , or those things made cleare which are obscure . — Wee must lay aside those things which are there obscurely set down , or wrapped in the vaile of figurative speeches , not because they are false , but because they require an Expositor .

O you Donatists ( O you Romanists ) reade Genesis , there you shall find written , In thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed . Let us heare what the Apostle saith of this seed , In thy seed , that is Christ . Behold , this is the wil & Testament of God ; why doe you cancell the Testament of God , in saying that this is not fulfilled in all nations , and that the seed of Abraham is perished from amongst the Nations ? why doe you adde unto his Testament , saying , that Christ hath no inheritance in the earth but where the Pope of Rome is his Copartner ? Wee envie no man ; Reade us this out of the Law , out of the Prophets , out of the Psalmes , out of the Gospell , out of the writings of the Apostles ; reade it there , and we will beleeve it ; as we doe reade unto you out of Genesis , and out of the Apostle , In thee , and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth bee blessed . Give me this Church if it be amongst you , and shew me that you hold Communion with all those nations , which now we see blessed in this seed .

Let us passe from the Law to the Prophets : how many , and how manifest testimonies are there found of the Church spread through all Nations of the world . The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord . Israel shall blossome , and bud , and fill the face of the world with fruit .

I have put thee for a light unto the Gentiles , a Saviour unto the ends of the world . Rejoice thou barren that didst not beare ; break forth into singing , & cry aloud thou that didst not travell with child , for more are the children of the desolate , then the children of the married wife , saith the Lord .

Let these ( Romanists ) compare their multitude in Italie and Spaine , and their scattered Proselytes elsewhere , with the multitude of Iews wheresoever dispersed through all lands , and they shall see how fewe they are in comparison of them . How then can they thinke the words of the Prophet were spoken of them , which saith , Many more are the children of her that was forsaken , then of her that hath an husband ?

Againe , let them compare the multitude of Christians through all Nations with whom they hold no Communion , denying them to be of the Church , as the Greeke Church more large then the Latine , the Southerne Churches not inferiour to the Latine , the Easterne Churches more by farre then the Greek and the Latine put together , and they shall see how fewe the Iewes are in comparison of them ; and they may understand that this prophesie was fulfilled in that Catholike Church which is diffused through the world . Now let us heare something out of the Psalms , I wil give thee the heathen for thine inheritance , & the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession . Their sound is gone out into all lands , and their words unto th' end of the world ; which the Apostle expounded to be spoken of the Preachers of the new Testament . His glory is over all the earth , because his Church is in all the world ; let the whole earth be filled with his glory . Amen , Amen . Let it be , let it be .

Goe now ( ye Romanists ) and cry , not so , not so , let it not be , let it not be . The word of God hath overcome you , saying , Let it be , let it be . What will they answer to these words of the Law , the Prophets , & the Psalmes ? Let us heare the words of Christ himselfe , saying , so it is written , and thus it behoved Christ to suffer , and to rise from the dead the third day . Here the head it selfe is shewed unto us , which gave himselfe to bee handled by his disciples . See what hee addeth concerning his body , which is the church , that so we may erre neither in the Bridegrome , nor in his Bride . And ( saith he ) that repentance and remission of sinnes should be preached in his Name through all nations , beginning at Hierusalem . What can be spoken more truly , more divinely , more clearly ? I hold my words unworthy to commend it , and yet these Heretikes are not ashamed to oppugne it . They may say that those words which I have cited out of the Law , and the Prophets , & the Psalmes , are darkly & figuratively spoken , & may be otherwise understood ; although I have laboured herein to stop their mouthes . But say they should say so , I aske again , whether that be darkly spoken , or shadowed with a vaile , as if it were a riddle which was spoken by Christ himselfe , that so it is written , and so Christ ought to suffer , and to rise again the third day , & that repentance , and remission of sinnes should be preached amongst all nations in his name . Hear what the Lord saith , not what Donatus , or Rogatus , or Vincentius , or Hillarius , or Ambrose , or Austine doe say , How doe we trust that we may clearly find Christ in the Scripture , if we cannot find there clearly his Church . — They must needs be doubfull , who use in defence of their society their own testimony , not the testimony of God . — Vnlesse thou know thy selfe , not in the word of cavelling people , but in the testimonies of my Books . In the Scriptures have wee learned to know Christ , in the Scriptures have we learned to know his Church . Wee have these Scriptures common to us both , and why out of these doe not we hold Christ and his Church common to us both . And againe , Behold the Scripture common to both ; loe where wee have known Christ ; loe where we have known his Church .

Reflecting now upon what wee have cited out of this incomparable Father , wee may observe how plainly , how frequently , how perseveringly he maintaineth , that this Question concerning the Church may be proved plainly , manifestly , clearly out of Scripture ; That hee would not have men use Humane testimonie in this question ; and they which doe use Humane testimonies herein , and not Divine , stand upon uncertainties : Aquin. 1. q. 1. art. 8. Carbo . to the same purpose the Schoolmen say , That Humane reasons , in hac doctrina non valent ad probandum , are not of force to prove : yet it useth Humane reason , not to prove Faith , and what it believeth , but to declare other things as a forreine Argument , and probable : but it useth Divine Authorities as a proper , and necessary Argument .

Secondly , let us observe , that this Father writing upon this Question , so many Books as make more then halfe a great Tome , yet never used any other Argument in those Bookes but Scripture ; hee never called upon his Adversaries , to shew names of their Professors in all Ages , nor did hee attempt that for himselfe , but chose rather to cite the same Scriptures , twenty times at least in severall Bookes of that subject , out of which places I will collect two Arguments ; first , desiring the Reader to observe , That things expresly contained in Scriptures , and things thence deduced are of a different nature , these later inferior to those ; those are Principles , these are but Conclusions ; those depend upon supernaturall light of Divine Revelation , these Conclusions are grounded upon those Divine Principles which men apprehend by Faith , and then doe search , and find the illation , and consequence of these Conclusions by the light of naturall reason , improved by Industry , and refined by Art : I doe not say that I can shew in Scripture , that the Protestants are the true Church , which were to make it a point of Faith , but out of Scriptures I can prove that the Protestants are a Church , and so make it a Theologicall conclusion , and the Arguments demonstrations ; because drawne out of the proper Principles of Theologie or Divinitie , thus :

1. Argument .

They who professe that Faith which was preached through the World , are a true Christian Church .

But the Protestants holding the Apostles Creed , and the doctrine of the Apostles , doe professe that Faith which was preached through the World .

Ergo , The Protestants are a true Christian Church .

2. Argument .

They who hold Communion , and acknowledge themselves to be a part of that Church which is dispersed through the World , are a true Church .

But the Protestants doe hold Communion , and acknowledge themselves to bee a part of that Church which is dispersed through the World .

Ergo , The Protestants are a true Church .

Secondly , out of the same Principles I will prove , that the Church of Rome is not the Church , as excluding all other Churches , thus :

1. Argument .

The Church doth professe that Faith which was preached , and received through the World .

The Roman Church holding a new Creed of unwritten Traditions , Transubstantiation , worshipping of Images , &c. doe therein not professe that Faith which was preached , and received through the World .

Ergo , The Church of Rome is not the Church .

2. Argument .

The Christian Church hath many more Children then the Church of the Iewes .

But the Romane Church hath not more Children then the Church of the Iewes .

Ergo , The Roman Church is not the Christian Church .

The Major Saint Austine doth bring out of Scripture in those words , The barren hath many more children then shee that hath an husband . The Minor will appeare , if we say unto these Romanist● , as Saint Austine did to the Donatists , Let them compare their multitude with the multitude of the Iewes dispersed over the world , and they shall see how few they are in comparison of them , the Iewes being by the calculation of the a a Brirewood in his Enquiries . most learned in Historie , and Geographie , as many as will people all Europe . The Roman Church when it was entire , being not much more then halfe Europe , if so much , and now having lost halfe that it was , is farre lesse . This I shall enlarge morefully hereafter , when I shall come to maintaine my former Arguments . Now I addresse my selfe to Master Fishers Replie .

CHAP. VI.

Fisher . Concerning M. Rogers his Answer to M. Fishers five Propositions .

BY this which hath been said against Master Bernard , his Looke beyond Luther , it may be easily seene , that M. Rogers hath not sufficiently answered M. Fishers question aforesaid ; for with a bold audacitie he nameth for Protestants , famously knowne Romane Catholikes , to wit , these Writers of the first seven hundred yeeres , and amongst others even Saint Bede , whose Writings , and profession of life ( being a professed Romane Catholike Monke ) shew him to bee no Protestant .

Rogers .

I can see no such thing in what you have said against Mr. Bernard , neither have you said any thing there which may touch me , but you have the same in this your Treatise against me : you have written , not halfe a sheet , in Reply to Mr. Bernards Booke of eight , or nine sheets , and yet you would have men see in your short Reply to him , a Confutation also of what I have written .

I have read , that Alexander the Great , seeing a companie of Indian Apes marching along a Hils side , tooke them to be an armie of Enemies , but when he came neere , he found them to be as they were , poore , silly , fearfull Apes , that ran into the woods to hide themselves . Hee that thinkes hee seeth in your Reply to Mr. Bernard , a confutation of him , or me , is as much mistaken as Alexander was in the Apes ; the reason is , hee looketh a farre off , as Alexander did , when hee tooke them for armed men ; but hee that commeth neere unto your Writings , vieweth , and examineth them diligently shall find , that there is no armie , there are no armed men , no sword , no weapon , no Scripture , no reason to wound us . You strout , and stalke a farre off , but when wee draw neere , you flye into the thickets of some darke speeches , ambiguous phrases , aequivocating termes , like those , Liguranes quos major aliquantò labor erat invenire quam vincere . It is more labour to find you out , then to conquer you . Mr. Bernard , I doubt not , is able to answer any thing that you have objected unto him , if he think such poore objections of yours to be worthy of any Reply . I wil addresse my selfe unto what you object unto mee , you say that I have not sufficiently answered Mr. Fishers Question aforesaid ; For ( say you ) with a bold audacitie hee nameth for Protestants , famously knowne Roman Catholicks , to wit , the chiefe Writers of the first 700 yeares . As for Audacitie , I hope to cleare my selfe , by performing all that I have undertaken herein . And the grounds I layed , doe manifest to the learned indifferent Reader , that I did so intrench my selfe , so fortifie my cause , as that I feare not any open force of a stronger enemie then you are . I named for Protestants , knowne Romane Catholicks ( say you ) distinguish Romane Catholicks , whether you meane the present Romane Church , or that which was in the first seven hundred yeares : these two are as different as Christian , and Antichristian , as Orthodox , Non Apostolici , sed Apostatici . Such as were fallen from all Christianity . Baron . an. 908. n. 4. speaking of the Popes of that age . and Haereticall , as Apostolike , and Apostaticall . I oppose the present Romane Church , not the Primitive ; and therefore I oppose this , because shee is so different from that , and no more like unto those former Romane Catholicks , then those Indian Apes were unto the valiant Porus , and his Indian Souldiers . They of those first seven hundred yeares did not equall unwritten Traditions unto the Word of God , they did not worship Images , nor was your new Creed any part of their Faith ; and this is the reason why we oppose the present Roman Church , because she hath so far declined from what she was .

Returne you to that Primitive Romane Church , and wee will returne to you ; these Writers of the first seven hundred yeares are ours , and not yours : insomuch , that I doe require you to shew me any one Father of those seven hundred yeares that held your now Romane Creed , and I will be of your mind . And whereas you make choice of Saint Bede for your instance , I will pitch upon that very man , and deny him to be of your now Romane Faith , I meane , as farre as your now Romane Church doth differ from other Christian Churches : herein I am in the Negative , so that it doth belong to you to prove the Affirmative . Whereas you say Saint Bedes Writings , and profession of life ( being a professed Romane Catholicke Monke ) shewes him to be no Protestant ; first , for his Writings , shew mee out of his Writings , what part of the Apostles Creed hee did denie ; I have no other Articles of Faith : if hee held these ( as I know hee did , and his Writings doe manifest it ) hee is of my Faith , hee is of my Church ; I of his , both of one Church , both of that one Faith , which the Protestants doe professe .

Secondly , I beleeve all the revealed written Word of God , as it was received in the Primitive Church , doth Saint Bede deny any of these ? shew mee where . But ( say you ) his profession of life proves him to be no Protestant , for hee was a Roman Catholicke Monke . First , as for Roman , I have already answered , that your present Romane Church differs from that which then was , in all those Doctrines wherein we differ from you , although it then began in matters of Discipline to swerve from what it had beene , I say in matters of Discipline , not of Doctrine ; if in any Doctrine , not in Doctrines of Faith ; they enacted , enjoyned , necessitated no new Articles , as now you have done in your Councell of Trent , whereas you adde Catholick to Roman . Hoc est — Pugnantia secum frontibus adversis componere , like that of dividing all the world into Kent and Christendome , or rather to say that Kent is all Christendome . Roman is but a part of the Catholick Church , and to say as you doe , that the Roman is the Catholick Church , is as if one should say that one particular man were all men , and that one limbe of a man were the man , as the Poet said of Tongilianus : Tongilianus habet nasum , scio , nec nego nasum , Nil praeter nasum Tongilianus habet .

The man had a great nose , and therefore the Poet said hee was all nose , as if he had no other parts , neither , eyes , nor mouth , nor hand , nor arme , nor legge , nor foote . So you , because your Roman Church is somewhat large , you say that the Church is all Roman : whereas it is not much larger in proportion to the Catholike Church , then Tongilianus his nose in respect of the rest of the body , I know you will say that the Roman Church is extended to the East , and West Indies , and there acknowledged : Alas , that is but by a few of your owne Emissaries cooped up in some small Ilands , and Forts in the East Indies , and as for your West India Converts , Bartholo : Casas in his Spanish colonies p. 1● . they are such as being forced by the Spanish tyranny doe professe a poore faith being taught to say there is one God , one Pope , one Catholike King . This is all their Creed , these are the Christians you there make , this is the converting of Nations you bragge of ; your imposture , and cousenage in suborning a couple of unknowne fellowes to come , and submit themselves to the Roman Church , a a Historia Concilij Trident. l. 5. as if they had beene the Patriarches of Alexandria , and Mozall is long since discovered ; so that by these poore shifts to vaunt unto the world , or thinke with your selves that the Roman is as large as the Catholick , is as if Tongilianus sniting his nose upon his garments , and there seeing it sprinkled here and there upon his leggs , upon his feet , should therefore thinke that his nose did reach unto his feet : that which you deliver in this kind being but vaunting of falshoods and grosse lyes I may well call the excrements of a divellish braine , seeing the divell is the father of lyes ; and yet this must make your silly , simple , hudwinckt followers thinke that the Roman Church is the Catholick Church , and as you afterwards say that none can be saved out of the Roman Church , Aug. ep. 86. Rabanus Maurus 400. yeeres after divided the Church into East , Greek and Latin . l. 2. c. 34. Saint Augustine in his time did distinguish betweene the East , and West Churches , and then did subdivide the West making the Roman but a part of the West , yea and distinguishing betweene some neighbour places , and the Church of Rome . In those times , and even to this day the Easterne Churches doe differ from the Roman Church in that they fast not upon the Saturday , as also a great part of the Westerne Churches even in Italy it selfe then did . Whereupon one Vrbicus wrote against those that did not fast upon Saturday , which caused one Cassalanus a Presbyter to write unto Saint Austin requesting his resolution herein , who replying unto him saith ; In those things concerning the which the word of God doth not lay downe any certaine rule , the custome of Gods people , the ordinances of their Ancestors are to be held for a law , He did not say heere the decrees , or custome of Rome must stand for a law to all other Churches . He bids him observe the words of Vrbicus , and you shall see him ( saith he ) with most injurious termes to abuse penè universam Ecclesiam Christi ab ortu Solis usque ad occasum , almost all the Church of Christ from the rising of the Sunne to the setting of the same ; meaning those who differed from Rome , so that here this Father did distinguish the universall Church from the Roman , And againe the question is ( saith he ) Vtrum Sabbato jejunandum sit ? whether Christians ought to fast upon the Saturday ? which question I would he did so demand , or so affirme as not openly to blaspheme the Church dispersed over the circumference of the Earth except the Roman , and some few more of the West . And againe in the same Epistle he saith : Non tibi persuade at urbem Christianam sic laudare Sabbato jejunantem , ut cogaris orbem Christianum daemnare praudentem . Let him not perswade thee so to commend a Christian City ( viz. Rome ) fasting on the Saturday , as to cause thee to condemne the Christian world denying that day . Here Rome was a Christian City , but the Church besides is termed the Christian world , Seeing then that the Roman Church is but a part , say not that it is the whole Church out of which no man can be saved . This was the claime of Donatus , and some of his distracted followers to stile themselves the whole Church , as you do , they being as you are in proportion to the Catholike Church , that is the whole Church but frustum de frusto majore precisum , a part of that Westerne Church which was but a part of that Catholike Church , of the whole Church . Doe not play with the Church as Martial did with Tongilianus . Anaxagoras shall sooner perswade me nivem esse nigram , that the snow is black then you shall make me to deny one of the most manifest principles that are in the world , which every child understandeth , and doth assent unto : if he be but seven yeers old , viz. That Omne totum est majus aliqua sua parte ; the whole is greater then any part thereof ; a child knowes this sooner then he knowes the right hand from the left : divide him an apple , and aske him whether he will have all or a peece ? he will say all , aske why ? he will say it is more . Divide him his bread , and butter in peeces , and aske him whether he will have a part or the whole ? he will chuse the whole because it is the bigger . The Roman Church is not the Aethiopian Church , nor the Greeke Church , nor the Armenian , Nestorian , Indian Church , all these and many more are but parts of the Catholike Church , Will you say that any part of this whole Church is as bigge as the whole ? A greater degree of stupidity then this did I never reade , or heere of . Would you make us lesse then children , more simple then infants ? When you tell us of your Roman Catholike Church , in that sense you expound it , not as concurring with but including the whole Catholike Church : Thus much for making the Catholike Church to be the Roman Church . Rome was a sound , and eminent part , and member of the Church before the seventh age , but in that age it began to bee troubled with the head-ach , when the Bishop of Rome claimed that proud swelling title of universall Bishop , which Gregory the first so much condemned ; in succeeding times that Church became heart-sick , and more diseased ( I speake as I conceive ) then any one eminent member of the Catholike Church ; her diseases , her heresies , her usurpations , innovations , superstitions , Idolatries we have left , that is her Papacie , not that faith by which she was , and is a Church though diseased , sick , all over infected with a leprosie ; as I would shunne a man that is a leper , and yet not deny him to be a man . But Beda was a member of the Catholike Church , of the Roman Church such as then it was , not such as now it is ; hee was not sicke of your greatest diseases .

Neither is your Argument of force as it is drawne from the title of Monke , no more then if I should conclude him to be of my religion , only by saying that he was a Presbyter of the English Church as now I am . Let us see your Argument in forme .

All Roman Monkes of all ages are of one faith , of one Church .

But Beda was a Roman Monke 900 yeeres past .

Ergo : He is of the same faith , and Church with the now Roman Monkes . Thus much for you .

Now for my selfe let me make the like Argument from St. Beda as a Presbyter of the English Church , and you know that title of Presbyter is more frequently given to Beda , then Monke .

All Presbyters of the English Church in all ages are of one faith , one Church .

But Beda was a Presbyter of the English Church , and so am I.

Ergo , Beda was of the same faith and Church with me , and all other Presbyters of the now English Church .

This is your kind of arguing , sillie , and simple . The major is most false , a meere aequivocation , the Monkes of the Primitive Church agreeing with your Monkes only in name , but not in nature , in signification , in definition .

Zozomen : l. Hist: Eccl: l. 1. c. 13. The first Monachi were such as in time of persecution fled into the Wildernesse , and there lived ; yours contrarily take this order upon them , and live in cities , and Courts of Princes .

Ibidem & Hieron : ep. ad Pauli : or rather single life . 2. They medled not with civill affaires , yours , especially your Iesuits are great States men .

3. They had no vowes , yours have vowes of chastity , poverty , and obedience which Bellarmine maketh essentiall to Religious orders , so that they are not of one nature they differ essentially .

4. They were Lay , and were forbidden by divers Canons to meddle with the Priests office . These have intruded so far into the Priests office as that they must yeeld the place to them . And your Bishops in your Trent Councell did complaine much of them .

Beda was no such Monke as now you have Quibus caruit Ecclesia eo tempore cum fuit optima . Agrippa de Van. Scien . Such as the Church had not when it was best . They lived by their labour ; yours by the sweat of other mens browes ; they fared hard ; Palingenius . yours duntaxat ventri , veneri , somnoque vacantes . These onely eate , and drinke , and whore , and sleepe , so that these later Monkes are as opposite to the former as necessitated , and voluntary professions ; as retired solitary men , from Statesmen ; as Votaries , from not Votaries ; Lay-men from Priests ; men of sparing diet , from Epicures . Beda was a Monke before this definition was reade . Monachus est cadaver mortuum , è Sepulchris egressum , pannis funebribus involutum , à Diabolo inter homines agitatum . A Monke is a dead carkasse comming out of the Grave , wrapped in his winding sheet , driven amongst men by the divell . Beda lived 700 yeeres or thereabouts before your Pope Pius the 2. said that a wandring Monke was the devills slave , If you prove St. Beda to be such a one I will grant him to be yours , but of those Monkes , and these I may say , O quantum hic monachus monacho distabat ab illo , How much doth your Parsons , and other Monkes differ from Beda , and those more ancient Friers , or Monkes , or religious Orders , call them as you please .

Fisher .

The like may be said of divers others , but at this time it may suffice to give this one example to shew that Mr. Rogers naming all those he named spake without Booke , or without having at hand or looking into his bookes , and that he might as well have named the Pope , and Cardinalls , and Bishops , Priests , Monkes , and all other religious persons of the present Roman Church to be Protestants as he nameth the said ancient Fathers .

Rogers .

And so I will when I come to my Catalogue name Popes , Cardinalls , Bishops , &c. for confirmation of my faith whether it be for my Creed which are more principall , and proper points or articles of faith , or for all those bookes of Scripture which I beleeve , or things therein revealed from God , Because the testimony of an adversarie for an adversary is most strong , and will take away your personall exceptions , Thus Paul did cite a Heathen to perswade Heathens , yea the inscription of an Altar dedicated to the unknowne God , found amongst Heathen Idolls . Thus the Fathers Augustine , and others in the Primitive Church did cite the Iewes for confirmation of their doctrine , and that they did not misaleadge the Prophets , and writers of the old Testament .

Iudaei inimici nostri sunt , de chartis inimici convincatur adsarius . The Iewes are our enemies , out of the bookes of our enemies wee convince our adversaries , Augustine upon the 40th . Psalme , and often in other places . Master Fisher , or his Second would have exclaimed hereat saying , what meanest thou Augustine , wilt thou perswade mee that the Iewes are Christians ? if not why citest thou their bookes ? nay , what meanest thou Paul to cite the Greeke Poets ? wouldst thou perswade me that they are Christians ; as if it must follow that they whose testimonie we cite in some things , must be our friends in all .

All the faith of the Protestants is confirmed by the Papists , all their explicite , all their implicite faith , all that belongs to our faith vel per se , vel per accidens essentially , or accidentally , primarie , or secundarily , as an Article of faith , or as an illustration of the same expressed in Scripture : and yet the Protestants are no Papists , the Papists are no Protestants : because the Papists have a new Creed , which Protestants deny , and I call God to witnesse that I desire to die a thousand deaths rather then to approve it , because I assure me it is false in all , and in some things blasphemous , The Papists have such exercise of Religion , worshipping of Images , praying to Saints which I abhorre as being Idolatry . In discipline also they have such tenents of absolute supreme power over Bishops , Kings , Lawes , oathes , as is full of pride , sedition , usurpation , and impiety .

Now here we differ , here I am in the negative , and so it doth belong to you to prove the affirmative . It is a just law , and your owne Master Fisher : for these I need not produce testimony seeing I doe not avow , maintaine , beleeve any such Creed , any such practise of Religion , any such discipline . But for my faith either explicite , or implicite all that is revealed by God in his word I may bring my Adversaries to depose for me ; Paul said unto Agrippa a Iew , no Christian , Iuvenalis . yea a wicked incestuous King if Roman Authors wrong him not — incestae dedit hoc Agrippa sorori . Yet to this bad man , this unconverted Iew , Paul saith , O King Agrippa beleevest thou the Prophets ? I know thou beleevest them . And may not I say Master Fisher , beleeve you the Apostles Creed ? I know you doe beleeve it , I have no other Articles of faith , no other primarie propositions of faith ; againe , for the totall object , for the secondary propositions of faith contained in Scripture , may not I aske you and say , Master Fisher doe you beleeve the Bookes of Moses , the Psalmes , the Prophets , and all those Bookes of the Iewish Canon , as also all the new Testament ? I know you doe Master Fisher , why then , herein is my faith limitted , whatsoever doctrine is plainely hence inferred , or out of principles of nature I receive as doctrines , or truths convincing my understanding , but they are no part of my faith .

After these , all doctrines , and lawes Ecclesiasticall , or civill in the Church or State wherein I live , not contradicting the word of God , or my conscience I receive with humility . May I aske you Master Fisher againe , whether the Apostles Creed and those bookes of old and new Testament received by our Church of England had not professors in all ages ? nay were not professed , and beleeved of the Popes , and Cardinalls of all ages ; I know you will not deny but they were so professed ; why then may not I vouch these Popes , and Cardinalls for my selfe , as I intend to doe when I come to my Catalogue .

CHAP. VII .

Fisher .

ANd I marvaile why having gone halfe the way ( as hee saith ) hee maketh a stop there , and doth not with the like audacity goe on , in naming other famous Roman Catholikes in every of the other ages .

Rogers .

Because Master Fisher offered in like proportion to name , and defend Professors of Roman religion , holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent ; these were your words in the first Paper I received of yours . I have gone halfe my journey , you not a step ; in proportion you should have gone as farre as I did , especially seeing you would have no other meanes of triall : whereas I have , and hold other , and better meanes to prove my Faith and my Church ; yet to satisfie others , to stop your mouth , and to meet you at your owne weapon , I undertooke this as a probable , forreine , humane , uncertaine Argument , yet such as maketh more for us then for you .

Fisher .

Namely , such as Gualterus in Latine , and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote in English , have set downe for members in the Roman Church .

Rogers .

If they have done it sufficiently and effectually , it had beene the lesse labour for you , Mr. Fisher , to have transcribed them ; but wee may guesse what makes you neither take a Catalogue out of them , nor make one of your owne : after your example , I might transmit you to Illiricus his Catalogus testium veritatis , or The mysterie of Babylon , written by Sir Phillip Morney , the learned Lord of Plessis , who have performed this for the reformed Churches , farre better then yours have done for your Church .

Yet when I come to the place where you have cited my Catalogue , I will make it out ; but let mee aske you why , instead of naming such as professed the Romane Religion , holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent , now you put members of the Romane Church , as if it were the same , a member of the Romane Church may give testimonie against you , and for me ; Caiphas , even then when he persecuted Christ , might prophesie truly of Christ : Pilate , who did crucifie Christ , did write that of Christ which was true , viz. that hee was King of the Iewes . Matthew Paris was a member of the Romane Church , who said that your Church did never reject any that came unto her , if they brought white or red with them . Silver , or Gold . This member of the Roman Church , said that a principall member , viz. That Pope Gregorie the seventh did confesse on his death-bed , that by the instigation of the devill hee had troubled the world ; yet this was such a member , as that Innocentius the fourth , Matthew Paris . the then Pope , wrote of him , that hee was vir probatae vitae , & Religioris expertae , Such a Writer , as that Baronius giveth this testimony of him : Take away from his Booke , his calumnies , Anno 996. n. 63 , 64. invectives , taunts , and blasphemies against the Apostolick See , often repeated , and you will say it is a golden Commentarie , taken word by word out of the publike Records , and very well compiled together . Thus farre Baronius . As if a man should except against a witnesse , and say , you must not believe him in this which he sayes against me ; but in all things else you may believe him , hee speakes nothing but what is upon publike Record .

Cajetane was a learned member of your Church , and yet he held the Canon of Scripture as wee doe , contrarie to that which the Councell of Trent hath defined .

Sixtus Senensis was a member of the Roman Church , and yet hee did denie some part of the Scripture to be Canonicall , which the Councell of Trent defined for Canonicall , and that after the Councell . Bellarm. de Verbo Dei . l. 1. c. 7. I will fit you with many such members in my Catalogue .

Fisher .

Neither can I see any reason why hee did not ( with like audacitie ) goe on in naming other famous Romane Catholickes in every Age , but that , as it seemeth , hee was not resolved whether hee were better to put in his Catalogue , the names of damned Haeretickes , which disagree in divers points of Faith from all ancient , and present Pastors , and Doctors of the Church , even from the Protestants themselves .

Rogers .

Who you meane by these Haeretickes , I know not , and therfore I need not reply unto you herein ; if you had laid that imputation upon us , I would have enlarged my selfe in the defence : but you say they differ in points of Faith from the Protestants .

Fisher .

Or else to put in names of Popes , Cardinals , Bishops , Priests , Monkes , and other religious men , whose Writings and profession of life palpably shew , that they held the present Roman Doctrine , and communicated with the Roman Church .

Rogers .

I have answered you already , that I will name Popes , Cardinals , Bishops , Priests , Monkes , and others of your Church , and why ; but such , as neither their Writings , nor profession of life doe palpably shew that they held the present Roman Faith . If their Writings expresse what you say , I will yeeld : but that their Roman profession of life should include the now present Roman Faith , I deny : and besides what I formerly spake concerning your Writers , I will adde some few instances now . Gratian. Can : Comp. de consecr. dist. 2. Gelasius was a Pope , and yet hee held your present halfe Communion to be Sacriledge , and decreed thus : Aut integra suscipiant , aut ab integris arceantur ; Let them receive the Communion in both formes , or in neithe● .

Nich : Lyranus was a Catholick , and yet hee held the Canon of Scripture , contrary to that of the Councell of Trent , as Bellarmine confesseth . So did Hugo , and Thomas de Vio , two Cardinals .

Irenaeus , Basil , Chrysostome , Augustine , and others whom I cited before , cap. 4. were Bishops , and yet they held the fulnesse and perfection of Scripture , without the supply of unwritten Traditions , contrary to the Councell of Trent .

Ierome was a Priest , and a Monke , yet denied those Books to be Canonicall , which we deny , contrary to that the Councell of Trent hath taught , and decreed .

As the hand of a man may smite himselfe , and yet continue a member of his body ; so these might be members of the Roman Church , and yet give testimonie in something against your Church . The Embassador De Ferrias of France , was a member of the Roman Church , and a French man ; Histor. Concil. Trid when in the Councell of Trent , speaking of the miseries of France , hee said , If they should demand why France is not in peace , hee could answer nothing but that which Iehu said to Ioram , How can there be peace there remaining ? and concealed the words following , but added , You know the Text.

The Cardinall of Loraine was a principall member of the Roman Church , and the second Clergie man in the Latine Church , yet hee speaking of the miseries of France , said in the Councell of Trent , If you would demand who hath caused this tempest , and fortune , I can say nothing but this , That this fortune is come by our meanes ; cast us into the Sea . By Vs , hee must understand the Roman Clergie . Iudas that betrayed Christ , gave a true testimonie against himselfe , when hee said , J have sinned in betraying innocent blood . And the limbs of Antichrist may give a true testimonie against Antichrist .

Now , whereas you say that they communicated with the Roman Church , I grant they did in some things , or else they had not beene members of that Church , but not in all ; for , not in those things they did disavow , reprove , condemn : and that this may the better be understood , I will enlarge my discourse herein .

CHAP. VIII . What it is to communicate with others . How farre wee yet communicate with the Roman Church , and wherein wee refuse to communicate .

COmmunio est multorum unio , Communio quid . Communion is the union of many . They that agree in one opinion , are so farre united , they are one . They that enjoy any thing in common , are so farre united . Rom. 12. The Church is one body , 1 Cor. 12. Christians are severall members of this one body ; as therefore the members being many , are united in one body , and doe communicate in divers of the selfe same things from that one body ; and communicate one unto another the service of those things that are proper unto them as they are severall members : So in the Church , all Christians make but one body collective , which are united together by many things , some outward , some inward , some both outward and inward , because it is corpus vivum a living body , wherein there is ( saith Saint Augustine ) a soule , Augustin . Breviculo Collat. 3. Collat. 9. and a body : The soule are the inward gifts of the holy Ghost , faith , hope , and charity , &c. The body are the outward profession of faith , and receiving of Sacraments . Whence it comes to passe that some are of the soule and of the body of the Church , and therefore united to Christ their Head both inwardly , and outwardly ; these are most perfectly of the Church , for they are as living members in the body . Againe some are of the soule , but not of the body , as those which are instructed to beleeve the principles of Christian Religion , but are not yet baptized , or those who are excommunicated if they retaine faith and love , which may bee done . Lastly some are of the body but not of the soule , as those who have no inward vertue , but for some temporall ends do professe the faith , and partake of the Sacraments under the government of Pastors , and such are as the haire , or nailes , or ill humors in mans body , Thus farre Saint Augustine .

This last doth make a man to bee a part of the visible Church . Bellar. de Eccl. l. 3 c 2.

As then in man there is the inner , and the outward man ; the soule and the body ; the one is visible , the other is not visible : So in the Church there is a mysticall Church which is not seene to bodily eyes , and an outward profession of Christ , and receiving of Sacraments which makes the visible Church ; we can see the men , we can see them baptized , comming to the Temple , receiving the Sacraments ; we can heare them make confession of the Christian faith , call upon God the Father by Christ ; all these things are sensible and most of them visible as the men , their meeting , their receiving of the Sacraments , the lifting up of their hands in prayer , the opening of their lips in confession of their faith , in prayer , and thankesgiving . Where there is a society of men thus professing the faith of Christ , and partaking of his Sacraments under the government of Pastors , there is a visible Christian Church ; These doe communicate in the same Sacraments , in the same confession of faith , ( and that maketh them to be of one Church , of the visible Church , though they be never so far remote one from another , and unknowne one to another ) in the same essence of faith , the principall , and necessary articles whereof are contained in the Apostles Creed , in the same essentiall forme of baptisme , whereby men are admitted into the visible Church ; we communicate with the Roman Church , and so doe all Christian Churches in the world , that is in all that which must necessarily be professed , and done to make a Church ; Now whereas my adversarie saith that those Popes , Cardinalls , Bishops , others named by Gualterus , and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote did communicate with the Church of Rome ; that will not serve his turne , for so doe we communicate with them in many things in the Apostles Creed , in the principall Sacraments , in the Iewish Canon of the old Testament , and in all the new , This doth make them and us a Church ; in these we have not left them , but in their new Creed , in their bookes added to the ancient Canon of the Bible , in their unwritten Traditions , in other their new false , hereticall doctrines , in their superstitious practise of Religion , and Monarchicall discipline , tyrannizing over the families of Christ , These we hold to be the corruption , sicknesse , leprosie of their Church , there we have left viz their Papacie not their Church ; we left them as an unsound Church , not as a Church ; Thus the Primitive Church did deale with the Heathens , Iewes , and Hereticks , as Saint Augustine writeth to the Donatists , they retained what was good amongst them . These Donatists held their owne society alone to bee the Church , and excluded all others : their owne baptisme to be true effectuall , and no other , so that they rebaptized those which were baptized by others , in defence of their allegation objected thus .

Vsqueadeo meum est quod à me unicum datum est , nec ab ipsis sacrilegis iteretur .

Sacrilegus non est qui unicum baptismum ; non quod tuum est sed quod Christi iterare non audet , Etenim Christi est unica in baptismate consecratio .

Tua est unici baptismatis iteratio . Corrigo in te quod tuum est , agnosco quod Christi est , hoc enim justum est ut cum mala hominum reprobamus , quaecunque in illis bona Dei reperimus approbamus . Hoc inquam justum est ut etiam in sacrilego non violem quod verum invenio Sacramentum : nec sic emendem Sacrilegum , ut in eo perpetrem sacrilegium . Nam sic sunt isti mali in baptismo bono quemadmodum sunt Iudaei mali in lege bona . Itaque ut illi per ipsam legem judicabuntur quam malitia sua malam fecerunt , Ita & isti per ipsum baptismum judicabuntur quod bonum mali tenuerunt .

Ergo quemadmodum Iudaeus cum ad nos venerit ut Christianus fiat non in eo destruimus bona Dei sed mala ipsius , Nam quod errat non credendo quod Christus jam venerit , natusque & passus sit , & resurrexerit hoc emendamus , eaque infidelitate destituta fidem qua haec creduntur instruimus , Item quod errant umbris veterum Sacramentorum inhaerendo , dissuademus jamque venisse tempus quo haec auferenda atque mutanda Propheta praedixerunt demonstramus .

Quod verò unum Deum colendum credit qui fecit Caelum , & terram , quod omnia Idola , & Sacrilegia Gentium detestatur , quod futurum expectat judicium , quod vitam sperat aeternam , quod de carnis resurrectione non dubitat laudamus , approbamus , agnoscimus , sicut credebat credenda , sicut tenebat tenenda , firmamus .

Ita etiam cum ad nos venerit Schismaticus , vel haereticus ut Catholicus fiat , schisma ejus , & haeresim dissuadendo & destruendo rescindimus , Sacramenta verò Christiana si eadem in illo invenimus , & quicquid aliud veri tenet , absit ut violemus , absit ut si simel danda norimus , iteremus , ne dum vitia humana curamus , divina medicamenta damnemus , aut quaerendo sanare vulneratum quod non est , hominem saucium , & ubi sanus est vulneremus . August : Tom: 7. l. de un . baptis . cont : Petil. cap. 2. 3.

Possunt esse populi boni , ubi fuerint Episcopi mali ; sicut potuit esse populus malus ubi fuit Moses Princeps , & Rector bonus . li. 2. c. E. Parmen . c. 4.

In bonis quibus talia displicent semper manet , & mansit , & manebit Ecclesia . l. 3.

Nihl aliud est consentire male facientibus ; nisi mala facta eorum approbare atque laudare . l. 1.

Nemo conjungitur cum infidelibus , nisi qui facit peccatum Paganorum , vel talia facientibus favet : nec quisquam fit particeps iniquitatis nisi qui iniqua vel agit , vel approbat . l. 2. c. 17.

Vbi Moses , & Aaron , ibi murmuratores sacrilegi , ubi Caiphas , & caeteri tales , ibi Zacharias , & Simeon , & caeteri boni : ubi Saul , ibi David , ubi Ieremias , ubi Isaias , ubi Daniel , ubi Ezechiel ; ibi Sacerdotes mali , & populi mali . cap. 7. Et sicut grana inter paleas non videntur , ita pie viventes inter iniquorum turbas non facile apparent .

My Baptisme is such , and so undoubted as that the sacrilegious hereticks themselves will not rebaptize those whom I have baptized , Saint Augustine doth answer thus , He doth not commit sacriledge who dares not rebaptize , after that baptisme , which is not thine but the baptisme of Christ .

The baptisme is Christs , the rebaptizing is thine , I correct in thee that which is thine , and acknowledge that which is Christs ; for this is just that when wee reproove the evils of men , we should approve whatsoever good things we find in them , because they are Gods : I say , this is just , that even in a sacrilegious person I should not violate that true Sacrament which I find in him : neither that I should so correct a sacrilegious person as thereby to commit a sacrilegious sinne .

For they are evill , though the baptisme amongst them bee good , as the Iewes were evill , though the law was good ; And even as the Iewes shall bee judged by that law , which they ( though defiled ) could not defile : So ( the Donatists ) they shall be judged by that baptisme which they could not deprave though them●elves be depraved .

Wee therefore thus deale with a Iew when he commeth unto us to bee made Christian , wee doe not destroy in him the good that he hath from God ; but the evill that he hath of himselfe , for we amend , and , destroy in him his infidelity whereby hee doth not beleeve that Christ is come already , was borne , hath suffered , is risen againe : and we instruct him in the faith of these things .

Wee also disswade him from those errors whereby he still sticketh to the shadow of the old Sacraments , and we shew unto him that the time is come already , wherein the Prophets foretold that these things were to bee taken away , and changed . But in that hee beleeveth one God is to bee worshipped , which made Heaven , and Earth ; that he doth abhorre all the Idolls , and sacriledges of the Gentiles ; that hee doth expect the day of Iudgement ; that hee doth hope for eternall life , we commend him , approve him , acknowledge him , wishing him to beleeve as he had beleeved , to hold as he had held .

So also when a Schismatick , or an heretick doth come unto us to bee made a Catholick ; we disswade ; destroy , and take from him his schisme , and his heresie ; but as for the Sacraments of Christ if wee finde them in him , and whatsoever other truth he holdeth ; farre be it from us that we should violate or minister againe that baptisme which was once received ; least while wee cure the vices of men , wee condemne the saving graces of God , and seeking to heale that which is not wounded , we should wound a man there where he was whole . Thus farre Saint Augustine .

These words of this Father make so plaine for our reformed Churches , as that they need no application , let the Reader understand Papist , where he readeth Donatist , and he shall find the Argument to follow . We so left you as that we retained whatsoever you had from God , and reject that which was from man : we retained that which made you a Christian Church , we rejected that which made you Popish , and Antichristian .

In the former we communicate with you , in the latter we disclaime . So those whom I have , and shall cite , did communicate with you in some things , but not in all ; for if they had communicated with you in all things they would not have reproved , Aug. l. 2. cor. op. Par. c. 21. and disliked so many things . Qui communicat , consentit , qui consentit corrumpitur . If hee communicate , hee doth consent , if hee consent hee is corrupted .

To consent to evill is nothing else but to approve , and commend that which is evill ; neither is there any man joyned in evill but he that doth commit evill , or favour it ; act it , or approve it . In those good men which are displeased with those evills , the Church doth continue , hath continued , and will continue for ever . And as the graine unwinnowed is hid in the chaffe : So the godly doe not easily appeare amongst a multitude of the wicked .

The people may be good , where the Bishops are bad ; as the people were bad , though Moses a good man was their Prince : where Moses , and Aaron were , there also were sacrilegious murtherers : Where Caiphas was , and many like unto him , there were also Zacharias and Simeon , and others like unto them : Saul , and David were in the same Synagogue , &c. So that I doubt not but some may be found in all ages , who did not communicate with your new doctrines , superstitious worship , tyrannicall discipline , although they did communicate with you in the Scriptures , and Apostles Creed , as wee and all the famous Christian Churches in the world doe . Know then that whereas you say that the Fathers and others alleadged by some of your men did communicate with the Roman Church , unlesse you can say in all things , you conclude nothing : Syllogizari non est ex particulari ; for otherwise I might argue thus ,

Some living creature is an Anabaptist ,

Master Fisher is a living creature ,

Ergo : Master Fisher is an Anabaptist .

Because they communicate with you in some things , thence to inferre you are the same in all things , is fallacia à dicto secundum quid , ad dictum simpliciter .

CHAP. IX .

Fisher .

AND ( as ancient Fathers have done before them ) condemned some or other Protestants Doctrine , even of those 39 Articles of the English Protestant Church , although they be more craftily composed then the Articles of other Protestant Churches .

Rogers .

I told you in my first Answer , that it is no prejudice to our Faith , if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions , not concerning Faith , as long as they maintaine our Faith , and that the Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all Ages , who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell .

These were my words in my first Answer , to which you reply not at all ; to this purpose I also used that distinction of Discipline , and Doctrine ; and distinguished between Doctrine Accessary , and Fundamentall : Adding also , that matter of Faith consisteth not in Discipline , but Doctrine ; and that Doctrine not Accessary , but Fundamentall . By which distinction I meane ( as I then expressed ) the same which Aquinas doth by res fidei , Per Se — Per accidens .

To this purpose I then distinguished Dogmata , 1 Schola , 2 Ecclesiae , 3 Fidei .

Between 1 Opinions of Schoole . 2 Doctrines of the Church ; & 3 Articles of Faith .

To all which grounds of mine , and more which I th●n layed , you make no reply at all , saving that some other grounds of mine you cavill at ( viz ) my Definition of a Protestant , and my Distinction of Affirmation , and Negation , which I will justifie in their places .

Why would you say nothing to these grounds , Master Fisher ? If they were true , why would you not grant them ? If false , why not deny them ? If ambiguous , why not distinguish them ? I know no other Answer , but one of these three wayes , Concedendo , negando , vel distinguendo . You will doe none of these to my grounds , and yet write in the top of your Booke for divers pages , these words , Master Rogers his most weake grounds ; viz. pag. 26 , 27. and in both these pages , not one word spoken of my grounds . Thus would you perswade your silly Proselytes , who must reade no more then the Title of your Bookes ; That you have answered all , when you have answered nothing , Likewise , pag. 22. you write over head , Master Rogers his most weake Arguments ; whereas , there is not in that page any one Argument of mine .

You can passe all those grounds of mine with a tricke of Rhetorick , to take notice of that which you cannot answer unto ; and in stead of that , must strike at a stander by , namely , our Booke of Articles ; saying , That they be more craftily composed then the Articles of other Protestant Churches ; which I deny , as most false : neither need it any further Reply , being an indefinite exception , and as it seemeth , spoken of purpose to draw mee from that matter proposed , to goe a roving as your selfe have done , with impertinent discourses .

Fisher .

I might therefore without more adoe , conclude , that Master Rogers hath not sufficiently answered Master Fishers Question .

Rogers .

With as little adoe as you can inferre , abrogating a Law from that word which is the most proper for enacting the same , Decret. 1. part . dist. 4. c. 4. Lugduni Edit. anno 1584. jussu Greg. 13. Statuimus , id est , abrogamus , Wee doe enact it , that is , wee doe cancell it ; or as you say , the Roman Church , that is , the Catholicke Church , a part , that is a whole , a piece of man , that is a whole man , this is quidlibet ex quolibet , from the staffe to the corner .

Fisher .

In regard hee hath neither named Protestants in all Ages , neither hath hee sufficiently proved them hee named to be Protestants , but by such false suppositions , and bad definitions , and such other shifts as any Arrian , or Anabaptist , or whatsoever other absurd Sectary may by the like defend the same persons to have beene of their Religion , or Sect.

Rogers .

The Question was , whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages ? This I prooved by divers Arguments to which you have made such answer as wee shall see anon . To this I have not sufficiently answered ( say you ) in regard , 1. I have not named Protestants in all ages : As if there were no other means to decide the question but this , no other proofe then induction , or that my adversary proposing the question , should limit me what kind of proofe I must use : As if the King of France denouncing war against the King of England , should send him word : If you will warre against mee , you must doe it by land , not by sea ; and you must land in Picardie , not in Normandie , or Britaine , or Poitou ; and you must chuse your place of battell in large Plaines , and fight with horse , not with foot ; and bring no Archers into the field , or else confesse that you are no Warrier , your Englishmen , Scots , and Britaines no Souldiers , your proceedings not justifiable by the law of Nations .

Would Charles of France the Frentick , have sent such a message , such a challenge to our Henry the fift ?

Yet Master Fisher saith , If any Protestant will answer the Premises , let him set downe names of Protestant Preachers in all Ages , who taught the people Protestant Doctrine in everie severall Age ; or else confesse that there were no such before Luther , or at least , not in Ages to be found in History .

As if I should say , If any Iesuit will answer mee , let him shew mee the names of Iesuit Preachers in all Ages , who taught the people Iesuiticall Doctrine in every severall Age , or else confesse that there were no such before Ignatius Laiola . We will deale with you as Edward the third with Phillip , who presented himselfe before Paris ; saying , Hee did call upon him to open fight in the view of France , and before his great Theater of Paris .

He did not limit him to any one kind of fight , or weapon , hee left him to his choise , so doe wee with you : prove your selves to be the only Church , and that all are excluded from salvation unlesse they hold Communion with , and subjection to your Pope : prove it by any testimonie of Scripture , or demonstration from the Principles of Scripture , or Reason ; frame your Argument as you thinke best for your owne advantage : there are many places for Arguments , viz. 24. wee exclude none , but will admit them in their degrees , some as necessary , some as probable . These are places of Art , or Learning : yet you will exclude us from all these , and bring us ad loca inartificiata , to testimonie .

And whereas those are Divina , of God or Man . vel Humana : of God , or Man .

You will have none but the later , which can be but weak , there being no Historian or Father but might be deceived , and very few against whom you have not taken some exceptions .

Of all the formes of arguing , a Syllogisme is that principall forme which alone hath constringencie , and necessary illation , and to which , all other formes , as being imperfect , are reduced ; this we must not meddle with , but bring exemplum , or inductio , or at the most , an Enthymeme , which is curtatus , & imperfectus Syllogismus , all of them unsufficient , parere scientiam , to worke and produce true knowledge , and yet we must use onely these . This is , as if the King of France should have sent to our King , that when hee fought , hee should not put on his best Armour , nor use his best Sword . Saint Augustine in this question excluded humane testimony , yet you will have nothing else .

Non audiamus , Haec dicit Ambrosius , Augustinus , &c. Sed haec dicit Dominus . Your Schoole also granteth that Scriptures are the principles in Theologie , and all demonstrations must bee ex proprijs principijs out of proper principles . Yet you will none of them ; onely names out of Histories you call for . This was a kind of proofe which I did not approve at first , but denyed the consequence of your 5th . Proposition thus .

The summe of your fift Proposition is briefly this , If the names of Protestant Pastors in all ages cannot be shewed , then the Protestants are not the true Church . This I deny to be of undoubted consequence , for that argument negatively from authority is of no force . In your demand you require the names of such as taught the Protestant doctrines : whereas all your Propositions before were of faith : as if all doctrines were points of faith .

I undertooke to shew a Church professing the same faith , which the Protestants now doe , in all ages ; and in all your Propositions you speake of faith , here you speake of doctrines . You know all doctrines are not articles of faith . I have named Authors for 800. yeeres , and in this my second Reply I will for the rest . Was not my request more reasonable to call upon you to goe on so farre , it being your owne way , it being a course proposed by your selfe : yet he that hath not gone one mile findeth fault with him that hath gone 800. because I have not gone further , whereas I had a neerer , and safer way to my journeyes end , viz: by Scripture , by demonstration , by confession of my adversaries .

CHAP. X.

Fisher .

NEither did hee sufficiently prove them he named to bee Protestants but by such false suppositions , and bad definitions , &c.

Rogers in his 1. Reply .

That my suppositions are false , you say it ; I deny it , when you shew any reason to convince them of falshood , I will disclaime them ; If my definition bee bad , you should have mended it , and so much I requested you to doe , and doe request it againe , and againe . But why is my definition bad ? why my suppositions false ? and why shifts ? because that Arrians , Anabaptists , or whatsoever other Sectarie may by the like , defend the same persons to have beene of their Religion and Sect. What suppositions you meane I know not , if you meane my distinctions , I shall answer you when I come to your particular exception against them : As for my definition it was this , and thus delivered .

Master Fisher , I desire you therefore to expresse without ambiguity the termes of this question , whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages ? what you meane by Church ? what by Protestants ? what by visible ?

I will deliver my opinion in defining a Protestant Church . The Protestant Church is a society of men professing the faith expressed in the Canonicall Scriptures , acknowledged to be such in the Primitive Church ; comprized in the Apostles Creed , explained in the other two Creedes of Nice , and Athanasius , ministring the Sacraments of Baptisme , and the Lords Supper by men of lawfull calling , and ordination .

Such a society as this , was in all ages .

Ergo , The Protestant Church was in all ages .

Thus farre in my former Reply , this was the definition I brought , and none other . You say an Arrian may by this definition defend , that those persons by me alleadged were of his Religion , or Sect , so may the Anabaptists , or any other Sectary as you say ; what other Sectaries you meane I know not ; as for the Anabaptist , I will answer you where you have made more full mention of him . As for the Arrian , because here only you name him , here I will reply unto you concerning him . You say that my definition may agree with an Arrian , for so it must if thereby he may proove those to whom this definition doth belong to be of his Religion , then which nothing could be spoken more ignorantly if you thought as you wrote , or more impudently if you knew the contrary , being so manifest a truth , as nothing that ever happened in the Christian Church is more frequent in Ecclesiasticall Histories , in Fathers , in Councells , then that Arrius was condemned in the Nicene Councell ; and the more full explication of the Apostles Creed was made in that Councell onely to exclude and condemne Arrius , which explication is commonly called the Nicene Creed : to the same purpose did Athanasius compose his explication of the same Creed . I make mention of both these in my definition , saying that the Protestant Church professeth that faith comprised in the Apostles Creed , explained in the other two Creeds of Nice , and Athanasius ; All these three doe say , that Christ is God : Arrius doth deny it , these are contradictories , can you reconcile them ? if you can , you will doe more then all the Divines , all the Philosophers could doe , nay more then God himselfe can doe . The Apostles Creed saith that Christ is the onely begotten Sonne of God , and therefore God , as the begotten Sonne of man is man : the onely begotten Sonne of God , because he alone is the Sonne of God by generation , all others either by creation , or by regeneration .

The Nicene Creed saith , Christ is begotten of the substance of the Father , God of God , true God of true God . Athanasius his Creed runnes wholly on the same straine , that Christ is God , that hee is uncreate , eternall , incomprehensible , Almighty ; Arrius denyed all this in denying him to be God .

This definition I alleadge , not as proper to the Protestants distinguished from other Churches , but common to all true Christian Churches , for two reasons ; first my drift is not to proove that onely the Protestants make the Church as I have fully expressed in my first Answer . My words speaking to Mr. Fishers 4th . proposition , were these , I would gladly know what they meane by those words ( if the Protestants be the true visible Church ) whether so as if we alone ( who are called Protestants ) were of the Church and no others ? wee leave such enclosing of Commons to the Romanists ; we chalenge it not , we are a true Church , not the true Church : we are a part , not the whole : we include our selves , we exclude not others , whether Graecians , Armenians , Aethiopians , Spaniards or Italians , &c. so they deny no fundamentall parts of the faith either directly or by consequence .

2. Because there can be but one definition of one Church , and such is the Catholick Church of Christ acknowledged to be , and this one definition must accord , and may be verified of every particular society , that professeth the faith of Christ , and ministreth those Sacraments which were ordained by Christ as necessary unto all men under the government of lawfull Pastors ; for these particular societies are of the same nature as the whole , Partes homogeneae quarum idem nomen cum toto , & eadem nominis definitio ; parts of one kind with the whole , and one with another , which have the same definition , because they have the same nature , and essence , as every drop of blood is blood , and every little peece of flesh is flesh , and have all the same definition . As therefore when I would proove my selfe to be a man , I would use no other definition then animal rationale , a reasonable creature endued with a living sensible body , Haec Articulis lex definiendi . for singularia non habent definitionem nisi speciei , particular , and individuall things have no proper , peculiar definition of their owne , but all of one kind , or species , have the same definition ; so being to proove my selfe a Christian , I will use no other definition then that of Christians in generall , viz. that I hold the faith of Christ , am admitted by baptisme into his visible Church , wherein I doe continue under the direction , and government of my Pastors .

If you should reply , that is no good definition , because it belongeth to you of the Roman Church , to those of the Greeke , Armenian , Aethiopian , Indian Churches , and to all other sects of Christians as well as to me ; I answer , that unlesse it doe belong to all Christians , it were no good definition , as animal rationale were no good definition of a man , unlesse it did belong to every particular man , excluding none ; for this is the rule of defining , this is the direction that is given by the most learned , that we must passe through every singular , observing what is to be found in them all , and at all times , and put those things alone in our definition , excluding those other things which we find in some singulars , or particulars , but not in other , or at sometimes , but not at other . This is the rule of reason , but you of Rome contrary to this course in framing your definitions , have collected those things which are to be found in one particular Church , viz. your owne , and wherein you conceive other particular Churches to be defective , things accidentall to the Church , as without which the Christian Church hath beene , and may be hereafter ; wheras all those things that belong to the definition of any thing , must be essentiall , universall , inseparable ; and being taken alltogether must shew , and explicate the whole nature of the thing , and exclude all things else of a different nature or kind : as for example , Bellarmine after a long dispute concerning the definition of the Church , rejecting all other , concludeth thus .

Nostra autem sententia est Ecclesiam unam tantum esse , non duas , & illam unam , & veram esse caetum hominum ejusdem Christianae fidei professione , & eorundem Sacramentorum communione colligatam , sub regimine legitimorum Pastorum , ac praecipuè unius Christi in terris Vicarij Romani pontificis . Ex qua definitione facile colligi potest , qui homines ad Ecclesiam pertineant . Tres enim sunt partes hujus definitionis , professio verae fidei , Sacramentorum communio , & subjectio ad legitimum Pastorem Romanum Pontificem . Ratione primae partis , excluduntur omnes Infideles tam qui nunquam fuerunt in Ecclesia ut Iudaei , Turcae , Pagani ; quam qui fuerunt , & recesserunt ut Haeretici , & Apostatae . Ratione secundae , excluduntur Catechumeni , & excommunicati , quoniam illi non sunt admissi ad Sacramentorum Communionem , isti sunt admissi . Ratione tertiae , excluduntur Schismatici qui habent fidem , & Sacramenta , sed non subduntur legitimo Pastori , & ideò foris profitentur fidem , & Sacramenta percipiunt . Includuntur autem omnes alij , etiamsi Reprobi , Scelesti , & Impij sunt .

But this is our opinion , that the Church is onely one , not two , and that one and true Church is an Assembly of men knit together in the profession of the same faith with Christ , and Communion of the same Sacraments under the government of lawfull Pastors , and especially under one Vicar of Christ on Earth the Bishop of Rome . Out of which definition may easily bee collected who are of the Church , and who are not ; for in this definition are three parts , 1. profession of faith ; 2. communion of Sacraments , 3. subjection to a lawfull Pastor , the Bishop of Rome . The 1. of these doth exclude all Infidells aswell Iewes , Turkes and Heathens , as Heretickes , and Apostates which having beene of the Church departed from it . The 2. part doth exclude those Catechumeni that are instructed in the principles of Christian Religion , but are not yet baptized , and those that are excommunicate , for the first of these were never admitted to the Communion of the Sacraments , these latter were admitted , but are by excommunication excluded . By the 3. part are excluded Schismatickes which have the faith , and the Sacraments , but are not subject unto the lawfull Pastor , and therefore doe professe the faith , and receive the Sacraments out of the Church . All others are of the Church although they bee Reprobates , wicked , ungodly men . Thus farre Bellarmine .

Valenza to the same effect writeth thus .

Vera Ecclesia non est alia , Tom. 3. in Tho. pa. 144. nisi ea fidelium congregatio quae paret Romano Pontifici pro tempore existenti . There is no true Church but that Congregation of faithfull people which is obedient to the Bishop of Rome for the time being .

Binnius the last , and largest compiler of the Councells , hath this . Illam dicimus Ecclesiam quae decreta Sancti Consilij Tridentini universalis aecumenici tenet pariter , & honorat . To. 2. pa. 721 notis in Corc Tolet. 3.

We call that the Church which doth hold , and honour the decrees of the Holy generall Councell of Trent .

Thus wee see , that obedience to the Bishop of Rome is put by your late great Goliahs in the definition of the Church , and by consequence it is of the essence , and being of the Church , so that no man can be saved by their Doctrine , which is not obedient to the Bishop of Rome . Nay , the Christian Church cannot subsist without the Bishop of Rome , and obedience unto him , because nothing can subsist without his owne being .

If this be a true definition of the Christian Church , then millions of Soules were damned when the Church of Rome was divided for many yeares , and many descents ( for there could be but one true Pope at the same time ) some cleaving to one Pope , some to the other , this Schisme during seventy yeares . The want of this obedience ( if their Doctrine be true ) hath excluded all the reformed Churches from hope of salvation , which containe many millions of Christian Soules which receive , and believe the Scriptures of old and new Testament , as they were received in the first , second , third , fourth Centurie of yeares ; which receive , and professe the Apostles Creed , are therein baptized , and receive for Orthodox Doctrine , the Decrees of the foure first Generall Councels , and some of them receive six of the first Councels , and yet must they be damned to the pit of hell , because they will not be obedient to the Pope ? Histor. Concil. Trid. p. 450. The Queen of France somewhat above sixty yeares since , wrote unto the Pope , that there being none of the Reformed , who deny the Articles of Faith , nor the six Councels , many thought it fit to receive them into Communion . Let us passe from the Latin Church to the Greeke , a Church larger in extent then the Latine Church . This , with all the number of Christian Soules therein contained , for denying the Popes Supremacie , are out of the Church , have lost their hold of Christ , have no interest in his sufferings , although most of them suffer much for the profession of Christ under Turkes , and Tartars . Let us goe somewhat further , and observe the miserable condition of the Churches of Africke , which when they were at the best , were three times as large as the Roman Church , and yet , though the Mahometans have much prevailed against them , not inferior to the Latine Church ; all these are without hope of Heaven , damned for ever to the pit of Hell , if this definition be true .

Eusebius the compiler of the Ecclesiasticall History for the first three hundred and odd yeares , assisted therein by Constantine the Great , and esteemed by him worthy to be Bishop of all the world , writeth , Lib. 3. c. 14. that The Church was dispersed through the world by the Apostles . Then speaking of the next Age , viz. Anno 137. writeth , Lib 4. c 6. c. 28. that The Churches did then shine like bright starres , through the world ; and the faith in Jesus Christ did flourish in universo humano genere , amongst all mankind : As in Mesopotamia , in France , in Asia , in Phrygia . Lib. 6. c. 1. In India , where Pantenus the Christian Phylosopher found Christians , and the Gospel of Saint Matthew in Hebrew , Lib. 5. c. 9. Anno 180. left unto them by Bartholomew , who preached the Word in those parts .

Irenaeus the learned Bishop of Lions in France , died about these times , and had heard Polycarpus the Disciple of Saint Iohn ( as hee himselfe confesseth ) hee writeth thus ; The Church dispersed through the universall world into the ends of the earth , received from the Apostles , Lib. 1. c. 2. and their Disciples , that Faith which is in one God , the Father Almightie , &c. as hee there setteth it downe more at large ; cap. 3. hee saith , This Faith the Church dispersed through the world , doth constantly keepe , as if they dwelt in one house , as if they had but one soule , one heart , one mouth ; neither doe the Churches in Germany believe otherwise , nor the Iberians , nor the Celtes , nor the Churches of Egypt , nor those in the East , nor those of Lybia , nor those which are placed in the middle of the world .

Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria , about the yeare 234 , Euseb. l. 7. c. 4. writing to Stephen Bishop of Rome , saith , Scias nunc frater , &c. Know now Brother , that all the Easterne , and those Churches which are more remote , are at unitie . Where he names the Bishops of Antioch , Caesarea , and Ierusalem , of Tyre , of Laodicea , all Syria , Arabia , Mesopotamia , Pontus , Bythinia . Euseb. de vita Constantini , l. 3. c. 7. The Ministers of God came together to the Councell of Nice out of Syria , Cilicia , Phaenicia , Arabia , Pabestina , Egypt , Thebais , Africa , Mesopotamia , Persia , Scythia , Pontus , Galatia , Pamphilia , Cappadocia , Asia , and Phrygia ; thither came the Thracians , Macedonians , Achaians , Epirots , and they whose dwellings were far more remote .

Much could I cite to the same purpose out of Socrates , Theodoret , Sozomen , and other Ecclesiasticall Historians , much out of the Fathers , much out of the late Travellers , but I will make choise of two , or three which shew the multitude of Christians over the world .

It is too true , that about seven hundred yeares after the comming of our Saviour in the flesh , Mahomet gained much from the Christians , the Turkes more , about foure hundred yeares after that ; and the Tartars , I may say , almost as much as both ; the last of these , about foure hundred yeares past , Saving , one mentioned by Mathew Paris . subduing the mighty Christian King of Teuduc , became Mahometans , and their Successors ever since : yet so , as Christians are found in all their dominions to this day : yea , and within these foure hundred yeares and lesse , Burchardus hath recorded that in the hither halfe of Asia , from Tanais Westward , to Imaus Eastward , and from thence to the South of Asia , there were thirty Christians for one Mahometan . I will end this with an Historian , and Traveller of your owne , Andrew Thevet , Cosmographer to the French King in his Cosmographie : I assure you ( saith he ) that I found at Ierusalem , in the holy ( Passion ) weeke , more then foure thousand Christians of severall ( remote ) Nations , my selfe being sole with an Almaine of the Roman Church . And anon after hee saith , All those Nations doe acknowledge neither Pope , nor Cardinall , King nor Emperour of ours . And againe , None can shew that the Abyssines , Armenians , Maronits , Georgians of Persia , Nestorians , Iacobites , Syrians , Iavans , which be of the Ilands next the Orientall India , Burians , Darians , Cephalians , the men of Quinsay , most remote of all the Orientall India ( of all which Nations I saw in Ierusalem , in the holy ( Passion ) weeke ) ever learned from us ( of the Latine Church ) their Sacred Mysteries ( or Liturgie ) which they affirme themselves to have received from the Apostles . Thus far Thevet . Yet by your definition , all these , so many Christians of severall remote nations , are damned to Hell ; for they do not acknowledge the Pope , nor did for one thousand five hundred yeares . And must all the Christians for one thousand five hundred yeares , of so many severall Nations , be damned for not acknowledging the Pope ? The devils in Hell would triumph if this were true : The ten persecutions in the Primitive Church , and the great inundation of Mahometisme lenarged far and wide , by the conquest of Sarazens , Turkes , and Tartars , did never cut so many soules from Christ , drive so many out of the Christian Church , and consequently damne them to Hell , as this definition hath done , if it were true . I have read in one of your owne Writers , Matthew Paris , That a Priest deceased , Anno 1072. about thirty dayes after appearing to another Priest , his former acquaintance , bade him give over his function and repent , if he would be saved ; and opening his hand , shewed him a writing , wherein the Devill , and all the societie of Hell did give thankes to the whole Order of the Clergie ; because , that giving themselves wholly to pleasure , and neglecting to preach , they suffered more soules to come to Hell , then had beene seene in any Age before .

All the service that the Romish Clergie of those times did doe to the Devill , in bringing infinite numbers of soules to Hell , was nothing to what this Iesuiticall definition , and Doctrine doth doe .

If this definition be true the judiciall proceeding in the later day must be not as our Saviour hath laid downe in the 25. of Saint Matthew , Come yee blessed of my Father , Ver. 34 , 35 , 36. inherit the Kingdome prepared for you from the foundation of the world , For I was an hungred , and yee gave mee meat , I was thirsty , and ye gave mee drinke , I was a stranger and yee tooke mee in , naked and yee clothed mee , I was sicke and yee visited mee , I was in prison and ye came unto mee . But thus it must be , if this definition be true , Come yee blessed , who have submitted your selves unto my Vicar generall , who have been obedient unto my Bishop of Rome , acknowledging him to have authoritie over all Bishops , that hee is above Councels , above Kings , Valenza , Tom. 3.1 . qu. §. 6. Bellarm. l. 4 de Pont. Rom. c. 4 , 5. above Emperours , Lord of all the world , that in him is invested all the authoritie of the universall Church ; that all the Church , without him , may erre ; that he doing the office of a Pastor , or intending to teach , the Church cannot erre .

Our Saviour said , Not every one that saith unto mee , Lord , Lord , shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven , but hee that doth the will of my Father ; but now the case is altered ; Every one that saith Lord , Lord , to the Bishop of Rome , and none but hee alone is in the Church , out of which there is no salvation .

Our Saviour said , Hee that doth the will of my Father : but these say , Hee that doth the will of God and the Church , shall be saved ; and by the Church , they understand the Pope .

Must all those remote Nations , amongst whom many millions never heard of the Bishop of Rome , and those who are oppressed under the Moores , Turkes and Tartars , for the Faith of Christ , must they , I say , be examined in the last day , in that great Iudgement , whether they did obey the Bishop of Rome , or no ? and condemned for not obeying him ? If they answer , Wee acknowledged our sinnes , and repented of them , wee believed in thy name Iesu , wee were baptized in that Faith , wee received thy body and blood , wee endured many indignities , reproaches , impositions ; nay , our children are taken from us , if there be any more hopefull then other , and all because wee are Christians . Will Christ answer them , Away from mee ; for you did not acknowledge my Vicar generall , my Bishop of Rome to have authoritie over all Churches , over all Patriarches , yea Kings and Emperors in ordine ad Spiritualia : I know you not , you are not of the Church .

Irenaeus , l. 3. c. 12. May not the Aethiopians reply , Wee have received the Faith , first by the relation of our a a Act. 8.27 . owne Countreymen , who were baptized by Phillip , afterward by the Evangelist b b Socrat. hist. l. 1. c. 15. Saint Matthew . Wee received it by the preaching of Bartholemew , say the c c Chrysost. Hom. 22. de Apostolis . Armenians . Wee have received it by the preaching of Andrew , say the d d Orig. l. 3. in Genesin , & Scythians . We from thy beloved Disciple e e Euseb. hist. l. 3. c. 1. Saint Iohn , say the Churches of the lesser f f Euseb. hist. l. 3. c. 1. Asia : with us he lived , with us he died , to us he vouchsafed to speake in his Revelations , we received it also from thy Apostle g g Paul epist. ad Ephes. & ad Galat. Paul , who preached amongst us , and wrote divers Epistles unto us . From him wee received thy Faith , say the Graecians , Macedonians , h h Paul ep. ad Roman cap. 15 v. 19 , 26. Illyrians : To us hee hath vouchsafed to write , say the Thessalonians , Corinthians , Philippians . i i Pet. 1. ep. cap. 1. v. 1. Peter preached in our Countries , and in our neighbour Countries of Anatolia , as in k k Euseb. hist. l. 3. c. c. 1. Pontus , Galatia , Bythinia , Cappadocia , Asia : it was to strangers scattered amongst us of his owne Nation ; to the l l

Chrys. Hom. de duodecem Apostolis .

The Church of Ephesus instructed by Paul , and afterwards continued by S. Iohn . Iren. lib 3. c. 3. The Gospel of the uncircumcission was committed unto me , as the Gospel of Circumcission was unto Peter . Gal. 2.7 .

dispersed Iewes , and not to us of the Gentiles .

Wee of the higher a a Theodor. de veri . Evang. c. 9. Osorius de rebus Emanuelis . Socrat. l. 1. c. 15. Asia received it from Phillip ; wee from Simon Zelotes , say the inhabitants of Mesopotamia : wee of Parthia , Persia , Media , Brachmania , India , and other neighbour Nations from Thomas . We Indians also received it from Bartholomew , who left with us the Gospel of thy blessed Apostle and Evangelist Saint Matthew : wee saw not Peter , wee heard not of the b b

I assure you that I found at Ierusalem , in the holy ( Passion ) weeke , more then 4000 Christians of severall ( remote ) nations hereafter mentioned ; my selfe being sole ( amongst them ) with an Almaine of the Roman Church : they doe acknowledge neither Pope , nor Cardinall , King , or Emperor of ours . See more p. 42.

The Christians of Iava , Taprobane , Caephala , Quinsay , and other remote Countries in the Orientall India ; divers of which , as the Aethiopians , Indians , Armenians , Graecians , &c. were converted in the Apostles times , and are from these parts so far distant , as that the Latine Church was for many precedent Ages unknowne to sundry of them till the later times . Brearley , Tract . 3. §. 2. Sub. 1. in his booke of the Masse . pag. 288.

Pope , we knew not Rome ; neither , for ought wee know , were wee knowne unto thy Latine Church : and if it be necessary for all men that will be saved , to know and acknowledge the Pope of Rome , our Teachers have deceived us , the Gospel which wee have received is unperfect , the Scriptures are defective , which make no mention of the Bishop of Rome ; nay , thy Word hath misled us , saying , There is no other name under heaven given to men , in whom and through whom they attaine health and salvation , save only in thy name , O Christ Iesu . We received not our Religion from Rome , wee were not converted by any sent from the Latin Church . We received it from thy Apostles , say the c c Theodor. de curat . Grae ca. affect . l 9. Tyberines , Hyrcanians , Caspinians , Scythians , Massagets , Sarmatians , the Serae , Cimicrians , Germans , Britaines , the Lagi , Samni , Anasgi , ( utque semel dicatur ) omne hominum genus , all mankind may say , we received thy Faith from the Apostles ; sundry of which were unknowne to the Latine Church . Yet my d d In the Reply to Doctor White and Doctor Fratley , the Author in the second Chapter saith , That out of the Roman Church no salvation : this is the Title and drift of divers leaves together . Adversary here , if he sate in the judgement seat , would doe as Bellarmine , Valenza , Binnius and others have done , condemne them all to Hell , with an Away with you , I know you not , if you know not the Roman Church , if you live not in unitie with that : And no marvell he is so peremptory , seeing Pope Boniface hath decreed it thus ; Declaramus , dicimus , definimus , pronunciamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis omni humanae creaturae subesse Romano Pontifici . De Major .

Wee declare , say , determine , pronounce , that it is altogether necessary to salvation , that every man that will be saved bee obedient to the Bishop of Rome . These are the Lawes of Rome , this the doctrine of your Schooles , this the charitie of your Religion , to condemne ten times as many Christians to hell , as ever were of your Church , for not being obedient to him they never knew , they never heard of .

Arist. Tep . l. 6. c. 1. n. 1. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . And because we are speaking of Definitions , let me request you to remember the lawes of a Definition , as first , that it must contain all that is defined , it must belong to every thing which is comprized under that which is defined .

2. It must belong to nothing else , but that which is truly and properly stiled by the name of that which is defined ; as the definition of man must belong to all men , & to nothing else but man ; as every man is Animal rationale , and nothing but man : the reason thereof is this , that a definition must shew , and expresse distinctly the proper essence of that which is defined : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Artic. 2. Poster . cap. 3. If proper , then it can belong to nothing else ; if essence , it must belong to all , for nothing can be without his owne being and essence . And for the same reason it is inseparable , immutable , and must perpetually be verified of that to which it once doth belong , as a true definition , which sheweth the essence or being of a thing : A definition doth make us to know what each thing it . because nothing can bee separated from his owne being , unlesse it cease to bee at all . If then Bellarmines definition , & your tenet , That there is no salvation out of the Roman Church , which is the fame in effect with the doctrine of Bellarmine , Valenza and Binnius bee true , it must include all Christian Churches , and it must agree to all the Christian Churches at all times ; but this definition did not agree to all Christian Churches as I have shewed by the testimony of your owne writers , and Travellers , for many thousands of Christian Nations in the world did not acknowledge your Pope ; and many never heard of your Latine Church , neither did the Latine Church know them .

That it did not perpetually belong to the Church will appeare in that I thinke my adversary is not able to produce any in 1150. yeeres after Christs comming in the flesh , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Idem Metaph . 2. c. 3. that framed such a definition of the Catholick Church , so that the learned must either be ignorant of the true definition , or this must not be it . Is it likely that all the learned Fathers who wrote upon this subject , disputed upon this point , Licet definitio & definitum re idem sint tamen propositio in qua definitio de definito praedicatur non est identica , sed doctrinalis , quia in ea conceptus distinctus de confuso praedicatur . Zuarez . were ignorant what the Church of Christ was ? which is distinctly knowne onely by d d 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Arti. 2. Post . c. 2. a definition . If this definition , or your tenents were true , all those Christians who dyed for Christ till Peter came to Rome were out of the Church , were damned .

Stephen the first Martyr , who dyed for Christ the same yeere that Christ dyed for him , and all the world , was out of the Church , was damned , lost his life in vaine , shed his bloud to no purpose .

If it were so necessary that there must be a Bishop of Rome to whom all Christians must submit , why did not the Primitive Christians entreate Peter to goe to Rome that they might have a Church . The beleeving Iewes should have come to Peter , and said if we die before there be a Bishop of Rome , we dye out of the Church , we are damned , Definitio est principium , & finis logieae . Zabarella . therefore good Peter to Rome with all speed . They of Antioch should have done the like , and said to Peter , sweet Simon what dost thou here , to Rome that we may have a Church . So should they of Alexandria have told him , to Rome Peter , what dost thou heere ? Sedit Antiochiae annis 7. Baron . an. 39.25 . annis ut Euseb. in Chro. why wilt thou so long delay the laying of that corner stone in Rome whereon all must be built , wherein all must be saved ? why wilt thou hazard the salvation of so many soules as may die before thou hast settled a Church at Rome which must be the Mother of all Churches ? Pius 4. his Creed . art. 11. wilt thou make thy selfe guilty of the blood of so many beleevers as may dye whilst thou doest linger and loyter heere .

The Churches of Iudaea , Galile , and Samaria were excluded by your definitions , Acts 9.10 , 11 , 12. and tenents ; for Peter had not as yet beene out of those coasts : nay , if this definition were true they were no Churches ; but the Scripture saith they were Churches , ergo this is a false tenet , a false definition . The Christians of Ioppa were to blame to send for him , Acts 9. to hinder him from a more necessary journey to Rome , and Peter himselfe much to blame to tarry there many dayes . Cornelius the devout Centurion if he had heard , Acts 10. and believed your tenents , and definitions , might have stumbled at what the Angell commanded him doe , and he might have said with himselfe ; if there be no salvation out of the Roman Church what good can Peter doe me before there be a Church there .

If none can be saved but who are in subjection to the Bishop of Rome , what good can Peter doe me , there being as yet no Bishop of Rome . Then when Peter came unto him , and preached Christ Iesus , and remission of sinnes in his name ; if these men had beene there they would have said : Peter you have forgot one principall Article of the faith , that which is essentiall to the Church , the being , entity , the definition of it . That he must be obedient to the Bishop of Rome , this might more neerely concerne him being Captaine of the Italian Band. But the Scripture saith that Peter did tell him that whereby he , and all his house should be saved , and yet no word of Rome , or Roman Bishop . The Christians of Antioch by this definition , and tenet , were no Church , though the Scripture say they were , Iames the brother of Iohn which was kild by Herod was of no Church by this definition and tenet , and therefore was damned .

We desire not to be of any other Church then Augustine , Ambrose , Ierome , the Councell of Africk , the Councell of Nice , the Church of Ioppa , Caesarea , Ierusalem , Antioch were of . We like no such definitions as exclude the Fathers , Councells , the Apostle Saint Iames , the Martyr Saint Stephen , and damnes them to Hell . O let me live the life of these , dye the death of these , and rest in peace with these .

Thus much in justifying my definition , and against your tenet and Iesuiticall definition of Bellarmine , which I briefly urge thus .

That definition which belongeth to all Christian Churches , and to none else is a good definition .

But such is mine ,

Ergo : It is a good definition .

That definition , and tenet which excludeth and condemneth all the Churches of Africk , Asia , and a great part of Europe , yea Stephen the first Martyr , and Iames the brother of Iohn , together with divers Councells , and fathers , is false , and uncharitable .

But such is your definition , such your tenet .

Ergo : Your tenet and definition , are both false , and uncharitable .

CHAP. XI . A true Copy of Mr. Fishers five Propositions .

IT is certaine there is one , and but one true infallible faith without which none can please God .

2. This one infallible faith cannot be had according to the ordinary course of Gods providence , but by hearing Preachers , and Pastors of the true visible Church , who onely are lawfully sent , and authorized to teach the true word of God .

3. As therefore this one infallible faith hath beene , and must be in all ages , so there must needs be in all ages Preachers , and Pastors of the true visible Church , of whom all sorts of people have in times past ( as appeareth by Histories ) learned , and must learne in all future times the said infallible faith .

4. Hence it followeth , that if Protestants bee the true visible Church of Christ , all sorts of men who in every age have had the aforesaid infallible faith , have learned it by Protestant Preachers , whose names may be found in Histories as the names of those are found , who in severall ages did teach , and convert people of severall Nations under the faith of Christ .

5. Hence further followeth , that if there cannot ( as there cannot ) be found in Histories , names of Protestant Preachers who in all ages did teach all sorts of faithfull people , and who converted severall Nations unto the Christian faith ; Hence followeth , I say , that Protestants are not the true visible Church of Christ , neither are their Preachers lawfully sent , or sufficiently authorised to teach ; nor people securely warranted to learne of them that one infallible faith , without which none can please God , nor ( if they so live , and die ) be saved .

Rogers .

Here , ( say you ) is a true Copy of Master Fishers five Propositions , as if my Copy were not true . My Answer was printed without my knowledge , yet the Propositions of Mr. Fisher printed , are agreeing unto these Copies which I received , and there is nothing more in this your second Edition , then was in those alleadged by me , saving these few words ( in Histories as the names of those are found ) which make no sentence nor fill up one poore little line , and if they strengthen your cause any thing the more , let them come in , and doe you urge them .

Rogers in his 1. Answer .

The 3. first Propositions I admit .

1. That there is one faith .

2. That the ordinary propagation of this faith is by Pastors lawfully called .

3. That there have beene , and must be in all ages such Pastors so called .

4. I would gladly know what they meane by those words , ( if the Protestants be the true visible Church ) whether so , as if we alone ( who are called Protestants ) were of the Church , and no others ? we have such enclosing of Commons to the Romanists ; we chalenge it not , wee are a true Church , not the true Church ; we are a part , not the whole ; wee include our selves , we exclude not others , whether Graecians , Armenians , Aethiopians , Spaniards , or Italians , &c. So they deny no fundamentall parts of the faith , either directly , or by consequence .

An examination of Master Rogers answer to the five Propositions aforesaid .

I find first that he granted the first three without any exception , which I desire may bee diligently noted , and well pondered ; for out of these three grounds , to wit ; First , that there is one , and but one Faith necessary to salvation . And secondly , that this faith ( according to the ordinary course of Gods providence ) cannot be had otherwise then by hearing the preaching or teaching , of lawfully sent Pastors . And thirdly , that this faith hath beene in all ages past ( as appeareth by Histories ) taught by Pastors of the true visible Church , who onely are lawfully sent . Out of these 3. grounds , I say , evidently followeth that which is Master Fishers fourth Proposition , to wit , If Protestant faith bee the true faith , and their Church the true Church , ( or as Master Rogers had rather say , A true Church ) of Christ , then their Protestant faith differing from the Roman faith hath beene taught in all ages by lawfully sent visible Protestant Pastors , whose names may be found in Histories , as names of others are found who did teach the true faith of Christ in all ages .

This to follow , out of the aforesaid three grounds , is as I said , most evident , Nego , it is false . neither doth Master Rogers make any bones to grant , save onely that it may be hee will make a bogge at the word Histories , as not finding it in his Copie , nor thinking it perhaps necessary that the names of Protestant Pastors , who taught the Protestant faith in all ages past be found in Histories ; but understanding the word Histories , as Master Fisher understood it , to wit for some or other kind of Record , or Monument , as Doct. White also understood it when he said ; Things past cannot be shewed but by Histories ; I doe not see why Mr. Rogers may not absolutely graunt the fourth Proposition , even as it was set downe by Master Fisher himselfe ; for if any visible Protestant Pastors were in all ages , teaching especially any such Protestant doctrines as now are taught , they would have beene named and spoken of , Rogers all , or some . and written of aswell as others are , who have in all ages past taught all sorts of true and false doctrines , in regard there cannot be assigned any reason , either of the part of Gods providence , or humane diligence , why the name of others , even false teachers in all ages , should be set downe , and preserved in Histories yet extant , rather then the names of such as Protestants deeme to be the onely true Teachers of pure doctrine ; for doubtlesse both God , who is zealous of his honour , and carefull to honour and preserve the memory of them that would honour him , would for his honours sake have procured honourable memory of such as did , by teaching truth , honour him ; and men carefull of their soules health ( which they cannot attaine according to the ordinary course , but by hearing such Pastors onely who have lawfull succession from Christs Apostles ) have reason diligently to looke that memory be preserved of such Pastors , and of pure divine truth taught by them , then of others , who taught any other false , and not pure doctrine . Certaine therefore it is that the names ( or some thing equivalent to names ) and the doctrines of true Pastors who did in all ages past , teach true divine doctrine , may be found in Histories , as well as the names , and doctrines of others are found who did teach any other doctrine . And therefore if Protestants have had any Pastors teaching true doctrines in all ages , doubtlesse their names would be extant in Histories yet extant , which being presupposed , and granted , as Master Rogers seemeth to grant , by granting Master Fishers 4th . Proposition I doe not see how Master Rogers can denie Master Fishers first Proposition ; for it being supposed that the Protestant Preachers were , their names would be found in Histories ( as Master Fishers fourth Proposition granteth by Master Rogers supposed ) it may bee well inferred that if no such mens names be found in Histories , then no such men were in all ages , nor consequently are Protestants the true Church of Christ , for it hath had such in all ages : I doe not therefore see , I say , how Mr. Rogers can deny Mr. Fisher his first Proposition , supposing he grant as he granteth his fourth Proposition ; for although absolutely speaking , an Argument drawne from negative authority , be ( as Master Rogers averreth ) of it selfe of no force , and so Protestants Arguments which are usually made against us out of negative authority .

Rogers .

Here Master Fisher I must request you , and the Reader whosoever he be to looke backe upon the title of the two last pages which is [ Master Rogers his most weake grounds ] then reade diligently all that is there written , and see if there bee any mention , any one sentence , any one word of any of my grounds . All that is here spoken is in defence of Master Fishers owne grounds , viz. of his 4. and 5th . Proposition , which in that sense that you enforc'd them , are most weake , and more weakly maintained , and therefore the title should have beene thus ,

Master Fisher his most weake grounds .

That they are most weake grounds you say truly , that they are your grounds they manifest of themselves , being your fourth , and fifth Propositions .

Fisher .

I find first , that he granteth the first three without any exception , which I desire may be diligently noted , and well pondered .

Rogers .

How I admitted them appeareth by my answer , I delivered them more briefly , and more perspicuously then you did , thus , and in this sense .

The three first Propositions I admit .

1. That there is one faith . 2. The ordinary propagation of this faith is by Pastors lawfully called . 3. That there have beene , and must be in all ages , Pastors so lawfully called .

This I conceived to be the meaning of your three first Propositions without any diminution , neither doe you except against it ; as for your parenthesis , viz. ( as appeareth by Histories ) that is no part of the Proposition , for 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . That is one Proposition which declareth one thing , or whose parts are joyned together , and made one by conjunction : this your parenthesis is no part of the Proposition , nor made one with it by conjunction .

Fisher .

For out of these three grounds ( to wit first that there is one and but one faith necessary to salvation , Secondly , &c. Evidently followeth that which is Masters Fishers fourth Proposition , to wit ; If Protestant faith be the true faith , and their Church the true Church ( or as Master Rogers had rather say A true Church ) of Christ , then their Protestant faith differing from the Roman faith hath beene taught in all ages by lawfully sent visible Protestant Pastors , whose names may be found in Histories , as names of others are found who did teach the true faith of Christ in all ages .

Rogers .

If it doth evidently follow , frame your Argument , make your syllogisme , inferre your conclusion I see not the evidence ; make it cleare unto me , one short syllogisme would make me confesse that which you endeavour to prove in three pages , but prove not at all , onely you make one fallacie called petitio principij , and falsifie my words more then once , I will begin with your falsifications .

Fisher .

Neither doth Master Rogers make any bones to grant .

Rogers .

This is your first falsification , that I make no bones to grant your fourth Proposition : what I granted in your fourth Proposition was this ; First , after the Rules of Art , the practise of all learned men in all professions , and the onely way to wave contention about words , and come to reality ; finding an ambiguous phrase in that Proposition I thus wrote , I would gladly know what they meane by those words ( if the Protestants bee the true visible Church ) whether so as if we alone ( who are called Protestants ) were of the Church , and no others ? wee leave such enclosing of Commons to the Romanists , wee challenge it not , wee are a true Church , not the true Church ; wee are a part , not the whole ; wee include our selves , wee exclude not others , whether Graecians , Armenians , Aethiopians , Spaniards or Italians , &c. so they deny no fundamentall part of the Faith , either directly , or by consequence .

What Reply have you made to this ? have you unfolded your meaning ? have you expounded this dark phrase ? have you as much as proved , or disproved my distinction , or told the Reader in which sense you took it ? are you such a friend to amphibologies , doubtfull phrases , and aequivocating termes , that being requested to open your selfe , you will not explaine your words , your Propositions and grounds , or Principles to inferre other conclusions ? Such obscure phrases of double signification can make no Argument , but a fallacie which seemeth to be an Argument , but is none . They cannot be Propositions , which will not admit of one ambiguous terme , one ambiguous simple word . The onely way to avoid this , is by distinction . This distinction I brought , which you cannot deny ; The thing it selfe is so cleare , that there is difference betweene a part , and the whole , betweene a part of a Citie , and a whole Citie ; betweene a part of a Kingdome , and a whole Kingdome ; betweene a part of the Church , and the whole Church . Hee that saith , I am a Citizen of London , being made free , wrongs no man ; but hee that sayes , I am the onely Citizen , and there is no other , speakes falsly , and wrongs all other Citizens of that society . He that sayes Middlesex is a part of the kingdom of England , speakes truly , and wrongs no man ; but hee that sayes Middlesex is the Kingdom of England , as if there were no other Shiere nor Province belonging unto England , speakes falsly , and is no lesse then a Traitor to the King . And hee that sayes the Protestants are a Church , speaks truly , and wrongs no man , because hee excludes no other Christian Church ; but hee that sayes the Protestants are the Church , as you say of the Romane , excluding all others , speakes falsly , and wrongs all other Christian Churches of the world , as the Donatists did , which S. Augustin esteemed a a Quid hac stultitia imò verò dementia reperitur insanius . lib. 1. cont. ep. Parm. Credunt ex partibus terrarum periisse Abrahae semen quod est Christus — De vestro ista dicitis quia qui loquitur mendacium de suo loquitur , creditur eis de orbe terrarum quem possidere jam coperat periisse Christus , et quia hoc credunt cum impudenter dicant , Christiani sumus , audent dicere nos soli sumus . ibid. folly and madnesse , they believe that Christ is lost in all other parts of the world . This you spake of your selves , because he that telleth a lye , speaketh of himselfe . You dare say with the Donatists , We alone are the Church ; yet Christ did not say , Rome is the field , but the World is the field : that seed of the Gospel was sowne through the World , wee dare not therefore say as you doe , We are the Church , we are the onely Christians ; for this were a lye , folly and madnesse , as Saint Augustine termeth it . And yet , as if there were no difference , you can passe this over with saying , ( The true Church , or a true Church , as Master Rogers had rather say ) I had rather say so indeed , because this is true , the other which you say is false ; this is humilitie , that is pride ; this is charitable , that 's uncharitable as the devill ; this is injurious unto none , that to thousands of thousands , millions of millions , shutting them out of Heaven who believe in Christ , are baptized into Christ , and suffer for Christ .

Secondly , I observed many needlesse words in your Propositions , writing thus : I must desire the Authors not to affect obscuritie , nor to alter their words , which may alter their meaning , as in the fourth and fifth Propositions they have with the multitude of needlesse words obscured the matter , the fourth being briefly and plainly this : If the Protestants be a true Church , their Faith hath beene taught in all Ages by lawfull Pastors , This I granted , and no more ; this is your first falsification , as if I granted that which I expresly deny . I deny that wee are the Christian Church , which your Propositions layes downe , as if it were our Tenet , and this must be our ground to inferre that Proposition ; this is your Petitio principii , you beg a Principle which I will not grant you , and so the building fals for want of a foundation . Your Argument is thus :

Major . If Protestants be the true visible Church of God , then all sorts of men , who in every Age had the foresaid infallible Faith , have learned it by hearing Protestant Preachers , whose names may yet be found in Histories , as the names of those are found , who in every former Age did teach and convert the people of severall Nations unto the Faith of Christ .

Minor . But the Protestants are the true Church .

Ergo , All sorts of men , &c.

Not to meddle with the sequel of your Major , which is false , as I will shew when I come to answer your reasons for the same ; your Minor is most false , wee alwaies did , and ever will deny it ; wee are A true Church , not The true Church ; a part , not the whole , &c.

Whatsoever is in your Proposition more then what I expressed for the summe thereof , I granted not ; and therefore you have committed so many falsifications , as there are words in your Proposition more then this ( If the Protestants be a true Church , their Faith hath beene taught in all Ages by lawfull Pastors : ) I never granted that all sorts of men in every Age did learne their Faith by hearing Protestant Preachers , I never granted that their names , or the names of all other Preachers were to be found in Histories : yet you say , I granted all this : Is there no truth , no modestie , no meane , no measure of falsifying ? Are you not ashamed to write , that a man granted that which hee denied so fully , so frequently ?

Fisher .

Onely it may be hee will make a bogge at the word Histories , as not finding it in his Copie , not thinking it , perhaps , necessary that the names of Protestant Pastors , who have taught the Protestant Faith in all Ages past , be found in Histories .

Rogers .

What you meane by Bogge I know not , unlesse it be a hollow myrie ground , whereon a man can set no sure , no firme footing ; but hee that trusting to a greene surface shall walke thereon , sinketh in , and sticketh in the myre : such indeed are humane Histories in matters of Faith . But why should Master Rogers make the bogge , who proveth his Faith and his Church by other Arguments , and not by these ? who out of Saint Augustine hath already protested against humane proofe in so divine a Question : Aug. de veritate Ecclesia . Quia nolo humanis documentis , sed divinis oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari : I would not have the Church demonstrated by humane learning , but by the oracle of God . And with your Schoole ; That nothing but divine authoritie , Th. Aquin. 1. quaest. 1. Art. 8. neither humane reason , nor authoritie of holy Fathers are proper unto Divinitie , or doe properly demonstrate . But you that shun the proving of your Church , of your Faith by other course , and flye onely to Histories , you make the bogge , and such a bogge whereon you dare not walke , without you fill it up with the rubbish of some other kind of Records , or Monuments .

If you meane by making a bogge at the word Histories , that I should be afraid to admit the same now , because it was not in my former Copy ; you are deceived , I feare it not , let it come in , though with a Parenthesis , and let Histories extend to Records , or Monuments , so they be without exception , I well receive them in their degree as a humane , probable , uncertaine , unnecessitating proofe , and yet such , and so uncertaine proofe as it is , if you can shew mee your now Faith out of Histories for the first foure hundred years , which you your selves doe not accuse of errour , falshood , wilfull deceit , juggling , partialitie , heresie , I will be of your Faith , of your Church .

Fisher .

Things past cannot be shewed , but by Histories .

Rogers .

I have admitted your extension of Histories to Records and Monuments .

Fisher .

I doe not see why Master Rogers may not absolutely grant the fourth Proposition , even as it was set downe by Master Fisher himselfe .

Rogers .

Within twelve lines before , you say ( Neither doth Master Rogers make any bones to grant ) and here now you say ( I doe not see why Master Rogers may not absolutely grant it ) there you say I did grant it , here you suppose I did not grant it . You see no reason why I should not grant . If it be evident , it hath reason why it is evident ; and being your Proposition , you must shew that reason , and what your reasons are , and how proposed , let us see .

Fisher .

For if any visible Protestant Pastors were in all ages , teaching especially any such Protestant Doctrines as now are taught , they would have beene named , and spoken of , and written of , as well as others are , who have in Ages past taught all sorts of true and false Doctrines .

Rogers .

First you play the Sophister , in changing your termes : in your three first Propositions you speake of Faith , here you leave out Faith , and put in Doctrines , as if they were the same ; whereas you know that the ancient Fathers , and late Writers of your side and ours doe confesse , that there are many Doctrines in the Church of different nature and necessitie ; but let us see your proofe .

Others , who have in all Ages past taught all sorts of true and false Doctrines , are named , spoken of , and written in Histories .

Ergo , The Protestant Pastors in ages are named , spoken of , &c.

First , tell mee whether your Antecedent be universall or particular ; if particular , you conclude nothing : you know the old rule , Syllogizari non est ex particulari ; or if you will have it in the words of Aristotle , the rule is this , Arist. lib. Prior 1. c. 19. If both Premises be indefinite , or in part , it can be no Syllogisme ; and such is yours , namely , an indefinite Proposition , which must be resolved either into universall , or particular . If yours be universall , thus :

All others , who have in all Ages past taught all sorts of true and false Doctrines , are named in Histories , I denie it . It is related by many Historians , that there were Christian Churches in Britaine in the third , fourth and fifth Age. But no man hath put downe all their names , who were their Bishops , or inferior Ministers : if you can doe it , shew it mee . Againe , the Arrians were so many in the fourth Age , as that a Father saith , Miratus est mundus se subitò factum esse Arrianum , The world wondered how it came on a sudden to be of the Faith of Arrius . And can you , Master Fisher , shew mee the names of these Arrian Teachers ? I could be copious in alleaging divers false Doctrines , whose first Authors are not named , are not knowne , much lesse all that taught the same ; so that if your Proposition be universall , it is false : I denie your Antecedent . If particular , thus ; Some others , who taught all sorts of true and false Doctrines , are named in Histories . Ergo , I d●●ie your Argument , and as well I might say ,

Some men have no Noses ,

Master Fisher is some man .

Ergo , As you inferre any conclusion out of your particular Antecedent .

Fisher .

In regard there cannot be assigned any reason either of the part of Gods providence , or humane diligence , why the names of others , even false Teachers , in all Ages , should be set downe and preserved in Histories yet extant , rather then the names of such , as Protestants deeme to be the onely true Teachers of pure Doctrine .

Rogers .

Yet you are in your indefinite saying ( others , even false Teachers ) you will neither adde all nor some , to make it universall , thus ; The providence of God , and diligence of man hath preserved the names of all false Teachers in Histories . For then the falshood would be cleare : neither have you made it particular , thus ; The providence of God , and diligence of men have preserved the names of some false Teachers . Ergo , of Protestant Teachers : for then it would appeare that this were a Non sequitur , that particulars can inferre no conclusion .

Fisher .

For doubtlesse , both God , who is zealous of his honour , and carefull to honour and preserve the memorie of them that would honour him , would for his honour sake have procured honourable memorie of such , as did by teaching truth honour him .

Rogers .

Ergo , Their names must be found in Histories , Negatur Argumentum . Is this the honour ? Is this the glorie that God hath provided for his children , to be recorded by man ? It is written as you have cited in your Margin , 1 Reg. 2.30 . Whosoever shall glorifie mee , I will glorifie him ; and whosoever shall contemne mee , shall be ignoble . Who ever expounded this place of Scripture to be meant of humane testimonies , of being recorded in humane Histories , and not of that honour which is usually termed the state of glorie ?

The other place cited in your Margin , is , The just shall be had in everlasting remembrance : Ergo , Psal. 111.7 . Their names shall be recorded in humane Histories . Who ever made such collections ? God hath promised eternall glorie unto his servants , and you will turne it to temporall : for what is humane testimonie , and humane glorie , but temporall ? which shall end either before , or at least with time .

O presumptuous blindnesse of man ! to accuse the providence of God as defective , if it record not all their names in humane Historie , whose names are written in the Booke of Life . I am loath to spend many words in answering such poore objections , but the impietie , prophanenesse , Atheisme that is implied in this Argument , opens my mouth to speak somewhat more . Whereas you say , If God will glorifie his servants , hee must record them in humane Histories : this must imply , that God hath no other way to glorifie his servants , as that there were no resurrection of the flesh , no immortalitie of the soule , no Book of Life , no Heaven , no happinesse in another world .

Fisher .

And men carefull of their soules health , which they cannot attaine ( according to the ordinary course ) but by hearing such Pastors onely who have had lawfull succession from Christs Apostles , have more reason diligently to looke that memorie be preserved of such Pastors , and of pure divine Truth taught by them , then of others who taught any other false , and not pure Doctrine .

Rogers .

Here are two trickes of a Sophister , the one to obscure a Proposition with a multitude of needlesse and impertinent words ; for seeing hee was to prove this plaine and short Proposition , That the names of Pastors teaching divine Truth , are to be found in Histories : and that the Medium whereby hee would prove this , hee tooke from the diligence and dutie of Godly men , what needs all those additions which come in by Parenthesis , viz. ( which they cannot attaine according to the ordinarie course ) but by hearing such Pastors onely , who have had lawfull succession from Christs Apostles . The second tricke of a Sophister , is to speake indefinitely , and so making it doubtfull , whether your Proposition be universall or particular , not joyning either all or some unto others , as I have observed before . Your Argument which I must frame for you ( or I am like to have none ) is this :

Men carefull of their soules health , have reason to preserve the memorie of their Pastors : Ergo , They did so . Or to make it more large , thus :

Men carefull of their soules health , have more reason diligently to looke that memory be preserved of such Pastors , and of pure divine Truth taught by them , then of others , who have taught any other false , and not pure Doctrine . But they continued the memorie of the false Teachers . Ergo , They continued the memorie of the true Teachers .

First , you conclude not what you were to prove , viz. That the names of all true Teachers in all ages are to bee found in Histories .

Secondly , for your minor , if it be universall , it is false ; if it be particular , it doth not inferre , it doth prove nothing , as I have already shewed more fully .

Thirdly , your Argument hath foure termes ; in the major , your medium is the duty of men what they ought to doe ; In the minor you speake of what they did , and suppose a falsehood , viz. that men carefull of their soules health have recorded the names of all false Teachers , and so you would inferre they did record the names of all true Teachers ; and thus to prove the act from the duty in weake sinfull man , is no proofe , is like the rest , an egregious non sequitur . And as well I might argue thus , Master Fisher ought to have replied punctually in order , and alleadging my words in my answer to him : ergo , he did it . Or thus .

Eve should have abstained from the forbidden fruit : ergo , she did abstaine from it . Or thus :

Adam had more reason to hearken unto God , forbidding him to eate of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evill , then to his wife perswading him to eate thereof : ergo , he did not hearken unto his wife . Or thus ,

Iudas had more reason to defend his Master , then to betray him : ergo , he did not betray him . Or thus .

Peter had more reason to confesse his Master , then to deny him : ergo , Peter did not deny his Master .

If this kind of arguing were good , it were happy for us all in the day of Iudgement , when the Idolater should say , I had more reason to worship God , then to worship Idols : ergo , I did not worship Idols .

The murtherer would say , I had more reason to save , then to kill : ergo , I did not kill . The drunkard would say , I had more reason to be sober then to be drunke : ergo , I was not drunke . And so might all other sinners plead , if this argument were good .

Fisher .

Certaine therefore it is , that the names ( or some thing equivalent to names ) and the doctrines of true Pastors , who did in all ages past teach true divine doctrine , may be found in Histories , as well as the names , and doctrines of others are found , who did teach any other doctrine .

Rogers .

I have shewed it to be most uncertaine , that as well you might conclude , that Iudas did not betray Christ , or Peter deny Christ .

Fisher .

And therefore if Protestants have had any Pastors teaching true doctrines in all ages , doubtlesse their names would be extant in Histories yet extant .

Rogers .

I have already shewed your Antecedent to be false , if universall ; not to prove , if particular ; and so this conclusion , if particular I grant , if universall I deny ; and say , that an universall conclusion cannot follow out of particular premises . You know the unquestioned rule , Conclusio sequitur deteriorem partem .

CHAP. XII .

Fisher .

WHich being presupposed and granted , as Master Rogers seemeth to grant , by granting Master Fishers fourth Proposition , I do not see how Master Rogers can deny Master Fishers fifth Proposition .

Rogers .

I neither supposed nor granted it : what I granted in the fourth Proposition was this , and no more ; If the Protestants be a true Church , their faith hath beene taught in all ages by lawfull Pastors . What mention is there here of Names , of Histories , of Records , of Monuments ? let the Reader looke backe to my former answer , and he shall find that this is all the issue I joyned upon in the fourth Proposition . This is audacity Master Fisher .

Fisher .

For it being supposed that Protestant Preachers were , their names would be found in Histories , ( as Master Fishers fourth proposition granted by Master Rogers supposeth ) it may be well inferred , that if no such mens names be found in Histories , then no such men were in all ages , nor consequently are Protestants the true Church of Christ , for it hath had such in all ages : I doe not therefore see , I say , how Master Rogers can deny Master Fishers fifth proposition , supposing he grant , as he granteth his fourth proposition .

Rogers .

You say that I supposing , and granting your fourth Proposition , I must yeeld unto the fifth ; I have replyed more then once , your fourth Proposition , especially that which you most insist upon therein , names and Histories I deny , and this not being granted , your fifth Proposition cannot follow .

Fisher .

For although , absolutely speaking , an Argument drawne from negative authority , be ( as Master Rogers averreth ) of it selfe of no force : and so Protestant Arguments which are usually made against us out of negative authority ; as for example , the Scripture saith nothing of this or that ; or the Fathers of the first 300. yeeres make no expresse mention of this or that : ergo , no such thing is , or is of no force .

Rogers .

The subject of our discourse was humane History , and humane authority , and what I speake you grant ; but you extend it beyond the boundes of our then subject , and more then I will grant , to Divine authority , to the word of God , to the Scriptures : I say the authority of man is like himselfe , uncertaine ; his workes weake , and unperfect like himselfe ; but the word of God is like himselfe , certaine , strong and full of perfection , and therefore the Argument drawne from divine authority , is certaine , though negatively , in those things which the word of God proposeth , and professeth fully to expresse ; but in man it is otherwise , as in the next Chapter I will expresse more fully .

Fisher .

Yet when the negative Argument is grounded in an alreadie granted affirmative proposition , as it is in this our case , the negative argument is of great , and undeniable force .

Rogers .

This I grant , that negatives are so farre depending upon affirmatives , as that they cannot be understood , they cannot be defined , they cannot be demonstrated without affirmatives : and so , they may .

Fisher .

As for example , if we did grant this proposition ; If such or such a thing were , holy Scripture would have spoken of it , or the Fathers of the first 300 yeeres would have made expresse mention of it . If I say we granted this , we could not deny the aforesaid negative Argument , usually made by Protestants to be of force against us .

Rogers .

I doe not see what I should mislike in this , onely it maketh nothing against me .

Fisher .

But wee deny , and Protestants cannot prove the said affirmative , and so the negative Argument hath no force against us .

Rogers .

You deny , but wee have proved the affirmative , that all things necessary unto salvation are plainely set downe in Scripture , and therefore the negative Argument is of force against your new Creed , the Articles whereof are not manifested in Scripture , as I have more fully set downe in the fourth Chapter .

Fisher .

Now Master Rogers doth not , nor in reason cannot deny Master Fishers fourth proposition , which is an affirmative , whereupon his fifth negative proposition is grounded ; And therefore Master Rogers ought not to deny , but must needs grant Masters Fishers fifth , and so all his five propositions .

Rogers .

The Cuckoe , a Bird that makes no good musick , and hath but one note , yet is more frequent in venting that , then the Nightingale in tuning her excellent Musicke . Master Fisher having nothing else to say in defence of his Church , and against ours ; cries for Names , and Histories ; and not being able to prove his proposition , still sings the same song : Master Rogers doth not , nor in reason cannot deny , ought not to deny , but must needs grant : which being presupposed , and granted , as Master Rogers seemeth to grant , by granting I doe not see how Master Rogers can deny ; I doe not therefore see , I say , how Master Rogers can deny Master Fishers fifth Proposition , supposing he granted , as he granteth his fourth Proposition , neither doth Master Rogers make any bones to grant ; I doe not see why Mr. Rogers may not absolutely grant his fourth Proposition ; all these grants are found in one leafe , and halfe a page , and yet I never granted it .

Fisher .

Which being granted , if he will make a good answer as hee pretendeth , he must first set downe names of Protestant Pastors in all ages , and not content himselfe with naming some whom hee thinketh to be Protestants , and with saying he hath gone halfe the way .

Rogers .

Yet more grants , I must againe deny the grant , this is right Petitio principij , a begging of that which is in question ; I have oft enough denyed it , yet you will never leave begging it ; belike you thinke to wrest it from me with importunacie : it will never be , I pray you looke backe , see what I answered to your fifth Proposition , there you shall reade thus .

In the fifth Proposition , I desire to know whether wee should shew the names of Protestants , or their faith . This we will shew , That we need not , for the names of Protestants is but arbitrary , and accidentall , &c. And within a few lines after , you shall reade thus . But if it be really meant thus ; let the Protestants shew that their now faith was taught by lawfull Pastors in all ages : I doe ( with Gods helpe ) undertake it , and require the same from the authors of these propositions , and demands .

Have I here granted that the names of all Pastors , and teachers true or false are to be found in Histories , which is the onely ground whence you would inferre your fifth Proposition , which being not granted by me , I needed not to have set downe names of Protestant Pastors in all ages , or in any age : My two first Arguments , the one , a causis , the other , a signis , might have served the turne , without the third , ab exemplis ; and I might have contented my selfe with going lesse then halfe that way , which is your way , and not mine ; I never tooke it for other then an uncertaine , darke , slippery , cumbersome way ; it was your only way , and yet you would not goe one step .

Did ever any Iudge citing a man by writ to appeare before him at Westminster , limit him which way he should come ? would you thinke it reason that a Iudge should command a Herefordshire man to come to London , not through Worcester or Glocester , but through Shropshire , Darbyshire , Yorke , &c. The two Evangelists , Saint Matthew and Saint Luke , deriving the pedigree of our Saviour from David , yet did it by different wayes , De Doct. Christiana . and divers lines ; Saint Augustine saith , That two men differing in the exposition of some place of Scripture , he that erreth , yet if his exposition leade to charity , hee is like unto a man which missing his way , yet commeth to the end of his journey . My journey is to Christ , my scope to bring my faith , and my Church thither ; you might leave me to chuse my owne way , which was the way of Saint Augustine , by Scriptures , who doth disclaime and dislike your way by humane testimonies . Yet even in this your owne way I doubt not but I shall goe as farre as you in a day , and shall come sooner to my journeyes end then you shall , for the reasons which now I will alleadge in the succeeding Chapter .

CHAP. XIII . Humane Histories no proofe of any Church .

YOu would bring this great triall concerning the visible Church to Histories only , which I might refuse , briefly for these reasons ;

First , Histories humane in Divinity are weak , improper , and uncertaine proofes .

Secondly , your Index expurgatorius , blotting out of Authors , that which maketh against you .

Thirdly , You forge Authors , Records , and Councells to further your cause .

Fourthly , You slight , and deny the best Authors . Yet to give others satisfaction , I will enlarge these foure reasons in this Chapter ; not that your objections require any such full answer in this point ; that I have performed already . First , of the uncertainty of humane Histories , Bodin in that learned discourse of his , entitled ; The Method of Histories , a man of your owne , who also dedicated that booke unto the chiefe President of your Court of Inquisition , doth make foure kindes of Histories . First , Humane ; Secondly , Naturall ; Thirdly , Mathematicall ; Fourthly , Divine . The first he saies is uncertaine and confused ; the second for the most part certaine ; the third more certaine ; the fourth most certaine , and unchangeable . Yet you Master Fisher in this divine question refuse the fourth which is divine , most certaine , and immutable , and will have no other proofe then the first , which is humane , uncertaine and confused . When Ticonius in the same question did alleadge Divini Testamenti tonitrua , those thundering testimonies of the word of God against Parmenianus the Donatist , Aug. cont . ep. Par l. 1. c. 1. which we doe produce against the Romanists , making the same claime to the Church which they did , and tying the Church to Rome as the Donatists did to Africk . Parmenianus on the other side opposeth the relation of the Priests of his owne side ; say then ( saies Saint Augustine ) that we ought rather to beleeve your Colleagues then the Testament of God : shall the smoake of earthly lyes prevaile against this light which came from Heaven ? If Parmenianus were not in love with his Episcopall Chaire , he would rather choose to beleeve the written word of God , then his fellow Bishops .

Thus much , and much more to this purpose in that Booke , and divers other Bookes of the seventh Tome : but I will conclude this of the uncertainty of humane testimony , with the words of that Father in his second Tome , in his 48. Epistle , Necesse est incerti sint qui pro sua societate , testimonio utuntur non Divino sed suo . It is of necessity that they must be uncertaine , who defend their society not by the testimony of God , but by their owne .

Thus much of the uncertainty in it selfe , but much more uncertaine is all that you shall alleadge , since you have by your Index Expurgatorius altered Authors , to your purpose , at your pleasure .

The Pope himselfe and the Ordinaries , in their severall jurisdictions , as also the Officers of Inquisition against Haeretickes are carefull to prevent the publishing of any Bookes , which may seeme any way to derogate from the power of the Pope ; Widring . in Apol. pro jure princ . pag. 343. and if any such Bookes be published , they endeavour wholly to suppresse the same , or at the least forbid any man to reade them without speciall licence untill they be purged . Thus a Priest of your owne hath written . These your purging Tables are of two sorts ; some doe forbid whole Authors , some doe blot out sentences , or words ; so that if any Author speake against you , you will either deny the whole Booke , or produce some Edition , licenced by your Inquisitors , wherein those words are not to be found , as having passed under the Purgatory of your penne . Your severall bookes called Indices expurgatorij , purging Tables printed in divers places , as at b b An. 1584. Madrid in Spaine , at c c An. 1607. Rome , at d d An. 1586. Lions , are witnesses that you have left no witnesse in the world without exception .

If Saint Augustine say , Tom. 4 ed: Parisi : apud Catol . Guil. viduam ▪ etc. Anno 1555. Mortuorum animae non sentiunt res viventi●m , The soules of the dead know not the estate or affaires of the living : Your Belgian Index doth purge out this with a deleatur , let it bee blotted out , fol. 115. litera . l. If Saint Gregorie Nissene say , We have learned to worship and adore that nature alone which is uncreated , you can purge out this with a deleatur dictio solummodò , blot out this word ( alone ) saith your Spanish Index , pa. 20. If Saint Chrysostome , speake for the perspicuity of Scripture as hee doth in many places , as namely in his third Sermon upon Lazarus , deleantur , let those words be blotted out , saith your Index of Spaine , reprinted at Samiur . If the same Father speake for the sufficiency of Scripture as he doth in his Commentary on the 95. Psalme , the same Index hath a deleatur for it . If hee say , the Church is founded upon the Rock of Faith , and not upon Saint Peter , the same Index hath a deleatur for it , let it be blotted out . Much could I cite to this purpose , but as the rule is , Qui semel pejerat , &c. He that is once convicted of bearing false witnesse , is never after to be admitted for a witnesse : so hee that is once found to falsifie , and blot out Records , looseth for ever his credit in any thing he shall produce out of his owne Registerie . Thus much concerning your Index Expurgatorius , blotting out of Authors , that which maketh against you .

Now followeth the third exception against your authorities , your forging of Authors , and Councells . As Abdias Stories of the Apostles urged by Harding , and others , censured by your owne Sixtus Senensis for fained , and utterly rejected by Cardinall Baronius . Linus Bishop of Rome , of the passion of the B : Apostles , Peter and Paul , urged by Coccius , yet acknowledged by Bellarmine , Baronius , and Possevine to be fained , fabulous , erronius . Clemens his Apostolicall Constitutions , and his Recognitions are urged many times by Coccius , Harding , and others ; the first of these by Baronius , and Possevine , the second by Bellarmine , Baronius , and Sixtus Senensis are rejected with many more . Besides , the Fathering of divers Treatises upon St. Cyprian , upon St. Origen , upon Saint Athanasius , Saint Ambrose , Saint Augustine , and others , of which I will not speake , but referre the Reader to your owne greatest Writers , Bellarmine , Baronius , Sixtus Senensis , Possevine , who in divers places do naile these Authors to the pillarie , as false , fained Witnesses , and palpable forgerers , wishing the learned Reader to have recourse unto these , when hee readeth any ancient authoritie , cited and alleaged by the Romanists , and hee shall find it usuall amongst men of your side to quote , cite , and triumph in such forgeries , as if they were true and undoubted testimonies : as one of your side , M. Fisher , did alleage 27 Fathers for Invocation of Saints , to which I having made an answer within the compasse of two daies , for longer time hee would not grant me , pretending that hee must be gone out of the Countrey : I discovered so many forgeries and impertinencies , as that in his next Reply hee fell off from 27 to 16 , and of those 16 , some also forged , and very few or none at all to his purpose . Amongst others , hee doth triumph in a Quotation out of Athanasius in his Sermon de Sancta Deipera , the words in that Sermon as hee cited them , besides others , are these : O Mistresse , Lady , Queene , and Mother of God , make intercession for us : then thus hee trumphs ; How now Master Rogers , are you not yet contented to pray to Saints ? De Scriptor . Ecclesiasticis . 8. an . 48. Platina , Cusanus , Marsil . Pata . Lauren. Val. Ant. Floren. Otho . Fri. Hiron ▪ P. Cate. Volateranus , Nauclerus , Capnian . Mullineus , Aeneas Syl. Shall Saint Athanasius teach you your Ave Maria ? whereas this was but a forgerie , for Bellarmine and Baronius doe hold it not to be written by Saint Athanasius , and doe bring many reasons to prove the same : and Bellarmine saith , That it was not a worke of that Age , but written after the sixth Councell , which was above 300 yeares after Athanasius . And to insist no further upon the forging of particular private men , the most notorious , injurious , incroaching , impudent forgerie was that of Constantines donation , urged as true and undoubted by Harding , and the forging of the Councell of Nice by Pope Sozimus ; the first of these two , the donation of Constantine , whereby he doth give and grant unto the Bishop of Rome , all Italy , France , Denmark , Sweden , Britaine , &c. with authoritie and power over all the world , more then that of the Empire is , and that hee be honoured and worshipped more then the Emperour . This is adjudged a forgerie by more then a Jurie of Roman Writers . The other forgerie was discovered by a Councell of Africke , consisting of 217 Bishops , whereof Saint Augustine was one , who wrote to the Pope thus ; Touching that you wrote unto us concerning the Nicene Councell , in the very true Councell of Nice , which wee have received from the happy Bishop of Alexandria , and the Bishop of Constantinople , wee find no such matter . Boniface the second was so much moved hereat , above an hundred yeares after , as to say , Ep. ad Eulalium . That all these Bishops ( whereof Saint Augustine was one ) were all inflamed and led by the Devill . Thus much concerning your forging Authorities .

But say that wee produce some Histories , or Fathers which have not come under your Index Expurgatorius , nor beene refined in your forge ; how will you slight , scorne , abase , deride , slander and revile them ? I know not whom of the Ecclesiasticall Historians , nor whom of the Fathers you will admit for a Witnesse without exception .

For what Authors , what Records shall serve against them , who with a bold impudencie will deny those Historians , who lived in the fittest time to write of those things which they have committed to memorie , viz. in the Ages next following ; when they neither feare to offend the present , nor with too much distance cannot discerne what is more remote . Such as were the Histories of Eusebius , Artic. Historiae non minus vetustate , quam novitatae fabulosae , & injucundae sunt . Bellarm. de Cler. l. 1. cap. 20. Baron . Ann. 324. n. 19. especially of Socrates , Sozomen , Theodoret ; yet all these shall be rejected if they speake any thing that may disadvantage the Papacie , as Socrates , and Sozomen for relating the Storie of Paphnutius speaking for the married Clergie in the Councell of Nice , are thus handled by Bellarmine , Multa mentitur Sozomenus , Socrates tria mendacia dicit . Socrates & Sezomenus haeretici . Sozomen tels many lies , Socrates tels three manifest lies ; Sozomen and Socrates were Haereticks . Neither doth Baronius handle them any thing more respectively , saying , Sozomen was not advised ; behold , into what errors ignorance hath cast him , n. 22. it doth plainly appeare how far hee was deceived , hee did erre concerning the Nicene Councell , an. 325. n. 10. Anno 169. concerning Paphnutius , concerning Arrius , an. 327. n. 7. hee was deceived concerning the Councell of Ariminum , and other things , an. 355. n. 27. hee doth often relate untruly concerning Athanasius , an. 335. n. 6. an. 354. n. 21. an. 356. n. 85. These were the things of greatest moment in that Age , the Councell of Nice , the most famous that ever was in the world .

The Haeresie of Arrius , the greatest that ever was in the Church ; the labours , troubles and constancie of Athanasius against this Haeresie of greatest note , and most glorious of any Confessor that ever the Christian Church had before or since .

Sozomen lived in the fittest Age to be informed of these things , in the fittest Church , namely in the Greeke Church , where these things were done ; and yet is he so full of errors in matters of greatest moment , on which the eyes of all the Christians in the world stood at a gaze ? Is hee so full of errours in these things which were so cleare as the Sun in the firmament , so many Records being preserved of those passages , so many Letters passing from one Bishop to another ? must wee thinke that Baronius , who lived 1200 yeares after , and no member , no Inhabitant of the Greeke Church knew these things better then Sozomen did , and kicke him off , with saying , Hee was an impudent fellow ? an. 324. n. 19. That hee was a Novatian Haereticke ? n. 63.

But you would thinke that Baronius should not thus reject , debase , disgrace Sozomen , unlesse hee had some other grave Historian of those times to crosse and contradict Sozomen . No such matter : the other famous Historians of that Age , were Eusebius and Socrates ; though Eusebius somewhat more ancient , beginning his Historie of the Church from Christ , and continuing it untill the death of Constantine . Socrates and Sozomen , to whom wee may adde Theodoret , all three began their Historie where Eusebius ended , continuing the same unto the raigne of Theodosius junior , which was about the yeare 400. All these were Greeke Writers , and of the Greeke Church , to whom if wee adde the short Historie of Ruffinus , who was a Presbyter of the Latine Church , wee have all the professed Historians of note that I have seene and read for those times ; so that if the authoritie of these men be slighted , and excepted against as erroneous , false , impudent , lying Haereticks , I know not what Histories Master Fisher will produce for the chiefest time of the Primitive Church , the first 400 yeares . Of Sozomen I have already spoken ; the next shall be Eusebius , who was of that repute in the Age wherein he lived , and the next succeeding Age , that the other Historians , Ruffinus , Socrates and Sozomen doe begin their Histories where hee left , onely speaking something more fully concerning Arrius and the Councell of Nice , Sozomen stiling him a man most expert in holy and humane learning . This man , besides his Historie , wrote a Chronologie , which Baronius truly stileth a Ground-work , Baron . an. 325. n. 213. n. 215. and foundation whereon the whole fabricke and frame of Historie must relie ; yet herein hee is so erroneous , as that Baronius must correct him .

What , so erronious in the foundation , the whole building must fall then ? Thus Diodorus Siculus , of whom Iustine Martyr the Christian Phylosopher writeth , saying , Diodorus Siculus , whom you account the most famous Historian , so divided his Historie , as to terme his Relations before the Trojan wars , The Narration of Res & fabulas , matters mixed with fables , because hee had no certaine ground how to describe the times .

Varro , a man admired for learning , dividing time into three portions ; the first , before the Flood , which he calleth Obscure : the second , from the Flood unto the first Olympiad , which hee termeth Fabulous : the third , after the Olympiads , because of a computation of time hee calleth Historicum . So great a matter in Historie is Chronologie ; and yet herein Eusebius , Socrates , Sozomen , Ruffinus are charged to be erroneous very often by Baronius ; and besides this , hee layeth other imputations upon them . Eusebius was an advancer of the Arrian Heresie , a cunning Juggler ; in his Historie he doth favour the Arrians , he doth omit many things , Anno 318. n 79 & 80. an. 324. n. 154. n. 45. n. 144. an. 340. n. 40. n. 38. hee doth deale deceitfully , hee doth falsly relate the time and place of Constantines baptisme , hee is false in the storie of Estathius ; like a Stage-player , being an Hereticke , hee acted the part of a Catholick , he was called the Ensigne-bearer of the Arrians . Socrates dealbat Aethiopem , doth but wash a Blackamoore , in seeking to cleare him from the Arrian Heresie ; though hee subscribed to the Nicene Councell , yet hee afterwards returned like the Sow to wallow againe in the mire , and like the Dogge unto his vomit . Hee and Eusebius of Nicomedia , like two Coach-horses drawing the chariot of Impietie , did run headlong with equall pace and violence to their owne destruction , and the destruction of others , being driven by a wicked Spirit . Thus far Baronius ; saying moreover , That Sixtus Senensis ( a learned Writer of his owne side ) may be ashamed that hee reputed him a Catholick Writer . Doth not Baronius rave like Hercules furens upon the Stage , to deprave a learned painfull Bishop , a great Writer , and the chiefe Ecclesiasticall Historian of the Primitive Church , who is his chiefest Author for those times , cited by him in his three first Tomes , 700 times at least , so well reputed , that Ruffinus translated his Historie into Latine ? Sozomen stileth him , A man full of Learning , both divine and humane ; to whom these two , together with Socrates and Theoderet , did succeed in compiling the Ecclesiasticall storie . The last of these , Theodoret , alleaging a large Epistle of his in defence of the Nicene Creed against Arrius . All these , and besides them , Acasius , who succeeded him in his Bishoprick of Caesarea , doe cleare him from such imputations , and did reverently esteeme of him ; and shall we thinke that these men , who lived in the same Age , and within few yeares after Eusebius , did not know Eusebius better then Baronius , who lived twelve hundred yeares after his time , and more then 1200 miles from the place where hee was Bishop , where hee lived and died , and where those occurrences of the Councell of Nice , of Arrius , of Athanasius , were better knowne then in Rome , a Church more remote , and of another language , then that wherein that Councell was celebrated , and those Fathers did write ? I may not insist much upon the other Ecclesiasticall Writers before named ; but they are all reputed ignorant , false , erroneous ; by Baronius .

Theodoret , Socrates , Sozomen , Baron . an. 34. n. 29. and they which followed them , erred in the time , and fell into other lyes . Socrates is accused of him for falshood neere twentie times , and most of them in those matters which were of greatest note , and wherein hee and Sozomen doe agree concerning the Councell of Nice . Athanasius , Paphnutius , Eusebius , and Arrius the Heretick ; Ruffinus is accused of him for the like falshood in the same matters , concerning Arrius , Athanasius , An. 338. n. 2. as also concerning Saint Hilarie , Gregorie Nazianzen , and Basil . He saith , That Ruffinus was an inverter of times , that hee was unlearned , that hee did mis-interpret the sixth Canon of the Councell of Nice .

I will adde one example more . The renowned Athanasius saith , That hee wrote his Creed in his banishment . No , saith Baronius , Non exul , sed reus tunc Romae fuit ; An. 34. n. 13. He was not then in his banishment , but called to answer before the Bishop of Rome , as his Judge . What authoritie , what reason doth Baronius produce ? none at all . And you must believe Baronius , a Sycophant of the Roman Church , before Athanasius , that most glorious Confessor . Shall wee thinke that hee would lie , who was in trouble 40 yeares for the truth ? or doth Baronius , 1200 yeares after , without any Author to leade him , know better what Athanasius did , then Athanasius himselfe ? I should be thought very impudent , if I should say , That being here in England I did see of my selfe , and know what Baronius did in his studie in Rome , better then himselfe . There are not more miles betweene England and Rome , then are yeares from Athanasius his time to Baronius .

Linceus , the Son of Amphiaraus , Valerius Maximus . that could see through the walls ; and that other Sicilian Linceus , who could number the ships comming out of the Haven at Carthage , himselfe being at Litybed in Sicilie , 130 miles off , could not see so well as those men . Honorius primus , the first Pope of that name , was condemned for an Hereticke in three Councels , accursed for an Heretick by two Popes that succeeded after him ; his owne hereticall Epistles are found in the Acts of the sixth Councell , besides divers other Writers , Latin & Greek , that relate it . Yet Bellarmine hath the face to denie all this .

Pope Joane is recorded by Writers of their owne , is denied by these late Romans , that will blush at nothing . When the Carthaginians , in the end of the second Punick Warre , sent to Rome to sue for peace , a Roman Senator asked them by what Gods they would now sweare , seeing they had broken the promise they had formerly made , and swore by the Gods to observe . So I may aske you what Historie you will alleadge for the first 400 yeares ? whose testimonie you will admit ? who have rejected and reviled all Historians of those times , calling them erroneous , partiall , false , deceitfull , lying , impudent Heretickes .

CHAP. XIIII .

Fisher .

AVthoritie ; as for example , the Scripture saith nothing of this or that , or the Fathers of the first three hundred yeares make no expresse mention of this or that : Ergo , No such thing is , or is of no force . Yet when the Negative Argument is grounded in an already granted Affirmative Proposition , as it is in this our case , the Negative Argument is of great and undeniable force .

As for example , if wee did grant this Proposition ; if such , or such a thing were , holy Scripture would have spoken of it , or the Fathers of the first three hundred yeares would have made expresse mention of it . If , I say , wee granted this , wee could not deny the aforesaid Negative Argument , usually made by Protestants , to be of force against us .

Now Master Rogers doth not , nor in reason cannot deny Master Fishers fourth Proposition , which is an Affirmative whereupon his fifth Negative Proposition , is grounded . And therefore Master Rogers ought not to deny , but must needs grant Master Fishers fifth , and so all his five Propositions . Which being granted , if hee will make a good answer , as hee pretendeth , hee must first set downe names of Protestant Pastors in all Ages , and not content himselfe with naming some whom he thinketh to be Protestants , and with saying hee hath gone halfe the way .

Secondly , If hee will satisfie Master Fishers other Paper , as he pretendeth to doe , hee must prove , and defend them to be Protestants , as Master Fishers Paper requireth ; and must bring some or other good Authors , who doe clearly shew them to hold all , or some principall points of Protestants Faith , differing from Catholicke Roman Faith ; and not to condemne any of the 39 Protestant Articles ; and must not content himselfe with making such Arguments as hee maketh , which are most insufficient either to convince , or probably to perswade , either his Adversary , or any indifferent judicious Reader ; for these be his Arguments .

First , a Causis thus .

The faith contained in the Scriptures , hath had visible professors in all ages :

But the Protestant faith is contained in the Scriptures : ergo .

Secondly , a Signis thus .

The faith is that which hath testimonies of Antiquities , universality and consent of fathers , and other writers in all ages .

But the faith of Protestants harh these testimonies : ergo .

Thirdly , ab Exemplis thus .

Names of such as professed the Protestants faith in all ages :

Christ , and his Apostles .

St. Iohn , Ignatius , Polycarpus Iustinus Martyr , Irenaeus .

Tertullian , Clemens Alex : Origen , Cyprian , Lactantius .

Athanasius , Cyrill Hierosol : Ambrozius , Nyssenus , Hieronimus .

Ruffinus , Chrysostomus , Augustinus , Cyrillus Alex : Theodoretus , Socrates , Sozomenus .

Fulgentius , Evagrius , Gregorius primus .

Beda ; Damascenus , Alcuinus .

Thus having gone halfe way I conclude with this Argument . The Protestant faith being that which is contained in Scriptures , was received and taught by all the Orthodox Fathers .

But the Fathers above named be all Orthodox : ergo .

Now who doth not see that these Arguments be most insufficient , and that they may be most easily answered , by denying the Protestant faith to be contained in Scriptures , or to have testimony of antiquity , universality , and consent ; or to have beene professed by those Fathers which Master Rogers named . Who doth not also see that the same Arguments may be more strongly retorted against Protestants , by only altering the word Protestant into Catholick ? in regard our Catholick doctrine may be , and is ordinarily proved by plaine Testimonies of Scriptures , and Fathers , even by confession of divers learned Protestants themselves . I marvaile therefore , that M. Rogers being accounted a worthy Oxford Divine , would affirme and offer to prove , and defend Protestants to have beene in all ages upon so sleight grounds ; which if they be admitted for good , every sect of Hereticks may affirme , and prove , and defend men of their sect to have beene in all ages . For tryall whereof , I wish it may be imagined that there were an Anabaptist , ( for example ) who held all the Protestant faith saving onely some few negatives ; and namely , that it is not lawfull to baptize Infants : and that this Anabaptist had framed to himselfe such false Rules , as Master Rogers hath set downe to himselfe .

Rogers .

I desire Master Fisher , and the Reader to looke backe to the former page of the precedent leafe , to which I have already answered ; for in matter it was the same with that which went before , contained in the 26th . and 27th . pages of Master Fishers Booke , against me , which were all spent in seeking to strengthen his owne Propositions , his owne grounds , yet the Title he gave unto both those Pages was , Master Rogers his most weake grounds , there being in both those Pages not one sentence , nor line , nor word concerning any grounds of mine : so in the 28th Page of his Booke he hath put this Title .

Master Rogers his most weake Arguments .

Whereas there is not one Argument , nor one Proposition of mine in all that Page , as may easily appeare to him that will but reade the same ; onely he speaketh something in defence of his owne grounds to which I have already answered . Yet because of the Title , agreeing with the 29 and 30 pages which follow next after , I have copied them out , and placed them altogether that have this title , viz.

Master Rogers his most weake Arguments .

Which I thinke he did to gull his Proselytes , who reading but the Title must thinke that Master Fisher hath shewed my grounds and Arguments to be weake , when , and where , hee hath not made any mention of any Arguments of mine .

CHAP. XV.

Fisher .

NOw who doth not see that these Arguments be most insufficient , and they may be most easily answered , by denying the Protestant faith to bee contained in Scriptures , or to have testimony of Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent , or to have bin professed by these Fathers , which M. Rogers named .

Rogers .

I doe not think that you did see any insufficiency in the Arguments , or that they were easily to be answered ; for then you would have answered punctually to every argument apart , and not thus confusedly , and altogether , as if you had been afraid to come to close fight , but standing a farre off , to cast a dart , or shoot an Arrow . This is ,

Pugna levis , bellumque fugax , turmaeque vagantes , Lucan de Parthis . Et melior cessisse loco quam pellere , miles . Illica tela dolis , nec Martem comminus unquam Ausa pati virtus , sed longe tendere nervos , Et quò ferre velint permittere vulnera ventis . Light armed men , who flying fight , and never firmly stand ; Better in skipping up and downe , then fighting hand to hand . Their poisned darts they send and shoot , but will not closely fight ; Wounds which they dare not bring themselves , they send by winged flight .

Had the Argument been so easily answered , you would not have answered it by a manifest untruth , as you have done , by saying , That the Protestants Faith is not contained in Scriptures , whereas it is one of the greatest Controversies betweene you and us , whether the Scriptures be the onely rule of Faith ? which wee affirme , and you denie ; it is the sixth Article in the Doctrine of our Church of England , the Title is thus : Of the sufficiencie of holy Scripture for salvation .

The Article it selfe is this :

Holy Scripture containeth all things necessarie for salvation ; so that whatsoever is not read therein , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any man , that it should be believed as an Article of the Faith , or to be thought requisite and necessarie to salvation , &c. To this Article of ours agreeth the Helvetian , Bohemian , French , Belgian , Saxonian , Suevian confessions . Reade the Bookes of Luther , Brentius , Melancthon , Chemnitius , Calvin , Zanchie , Whittaker , and you shall find , that they all doe professe this , and write at large in defence thereof . We proclaime it in our Pulpits , we maintaine it in our Schooles ; wee will shed our blood , rather then admit any Articles of Faith which are not contained in the Scriptures . Is it not strange , you should have the face to denie that wee professe that which is printed in the Doctrine of our Church , preached in our Pulpits every day , maintained in our Schooles , defended by all , proclaimed to the world ? What doth Chemnitius maintaine in the first part of his Examen Concilii Tridentini but this ? This the first Controversie which hee there handleth against you .

What doth Calvin labour in his first Booke of Institutions ? cap. 6 , 7 , 8 9. in his third Booke , and second Chapter , where hee speaketh of the nature of Faith , but this ? And it is not a little that he writeth to this purpose , in his fourth Booke , and tenth Chapter ? Hath not Zanchie written a whole Booke to this purpose ? Against whom doth Bellarmine write his third and fourth Booke de verbo Dei , which tend onely to this purpose , to denie the fulnesse of Scripture , and to extend matters of Faith to unwritten Traditions , but against the Protestants ? There hee putteth Luther , and Brentius in the forefront of his Adversaries . Doth not Valenza in his third Tome upon Thomas , disputatione 1a. quaest. 3a , 4ª , 5ª , 6ª , 7ª , & octava , maintaine the same Tenet against the same men ? This is the maine Question betweene your Jesuited Schoolmen and us , when they write de objecto fidei , what those things are , which are to be believed with a religious assent of divine Faith ? Whether onely those things which are contained in Scriptures , as the Protestants doe professe , or also unwritten Traditions , as the Church of Rome doth professe ? let us then view the Argument , and see how you answer it .

1. Arg. First , a Causis thus .

The Faith contained in the Scriptures , hath had visible Professors in all Ages .

But the Protestant Faith is contained in the Scriptures . Ergo , The Protestant Faith had visible Professors in all Ages .

M. Fisher denieth the Minor , or second Proposition , which I have proved in the last Page before , out of the publike Doctrine of our Church , and chiefest Writers of our side and theirs ; neither can hee be ignorant of the same : but the Argument troubles him , and something hee must say . Neither is hee ignorant , that in this Controversie of the visible Church , betweene them and us , It is not the inward habit , but the outward profession of Faith which maketh a visible Church . Ecclesia constat professione ejusdem fidei , Bellarm. Tom 2. l. 3. c. 2 , 3 , 4. etc. & communicatione eorundem Sacramentorum ; The Church doth consist in professing the same Faith , and communicating the same Sacraments . Cap. 9. And againe , the same Author , cap. 10. writeth thus ; I answer , Formam Ecclesiae non esse fidem internam ( nisi Ecclesiam invisibilem habere velimus ) sed externam , id est , fidei confessionem , &c. The forme or essence of the Church , is not the inward Faith , but the outward profession of Faith , L. 19 c. 11. which Saint Augustine declareth most plainly against Faustus the Manichee ; and experience doth testifie the same ; for they are admitted into the Church who professe the Faith . Thus farre Bellarmine . So then by Faith , in this Argument of the visible Church , is alwayes understood the outward profession of Faith ; whereas the Protestants doe professe , that they believe nothing but what is contained in the Scriptures : this Respondent hath the face to say , wee doe not professe it . If but one man should come into the face of a congregation , and say , I doe professe , and believe onely those things which are contained in Scriptures : were not hee very impudent , and had a face harder then brasse , who would say to this man , Thou dost not professe that Faith which is contained in Scriptures . That Argument is not easily answered , which driveth the Respondent to such miserable shifts .

Wee professe no Articles of Faith , but those which are contained in the Apostles Creed ; which of these Articles are not contained in Scriptures ? Ad Partes , Master Fisher , this is the law of answering to a Proposition that hath many members ; wee professe that with a religious divine Faith , wee receive nothing but what is contained in the five books of Moses , or Ioshua , Iudges , Ruth , the two books of Samuel , the two books of Kings , the two books of Chronicles , the two books of Esdras , Esther , the booke of Iob , or the Psalmes , or Proverbs , or Ecclesiastes , or the Canticles , or the foure greater , or twelve lesser Prophets ; Or in the foure Evangelists , or in the Acts of the Apostles , or the Revelation and Epistles of Saint Iohn , or the Epistles of Saint Paul , Saint Iames , Saint Peter , Saint Iude : which of these bookes is not Scripture ? Thus wee professe our Faith ; doe not wee every where professe with Saint Augustine , De Doct. Christiana . l. 2. c. 9. and against you ; That all things concerning Faith and life , necessarily to be knowne and believed , are plainly set downe in Scripture ? With Saint Basil , Serm. de fidei confess . Lib. cont . Hermogen . and against you ; That it is pride and infidelity to adde unto the Scriptures ? With Tertullian , against you and Hermogenes , Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis officina : Si non Scriptum , timeat vae illud , &c. Shew where it is written , or else feare that woe which is denounced against those who adde unto the Word of God . And will you say that wee professe any Faith , besides that which is contained in Scriptures ? This is your easie answering , Master Fisher , to denie that wee professe that which we doe professe in all our Bookes , in all our Schooles , in all our Pulpits , in all our Discourses of this subject , viz. What wee ought to believe . You will as easily answer the other Argument ; let us see the Argument , and your answer .

2. Arg. A Signis thus :

The Faith which hath testimonies of Antiquitie , Universalitie , and consent of Fathers , and other Writers in all ages , had visible Professors in all ages .

But the Faith of Protestants hath these testimonies .

Ergo , The Faith of Protestants had visible Professors in all Ages .

To this you answer , by denying the Minor , or second Proposition thus : The Protestant Faith hath not testimonies of Antiquitie , Universalitie , and consent . Ad partes , Master Fisher , which Article of the Apostles Creed doth want the testimonie of Antiquitie , Universalitie , and consent ? which of those Bookes , received for Canonical of the Church of England , and named of mee a little before , want these testimonies of Antiquitie , Universalitie , and consent ? Is it Genesis , or Exodus , or any other Booke of Moses ? Is it the Psalmes , or Proverbs , or Histories that want this testimony ? Or is it Esay , or Ieremie , or Ezekiel , or Daniel , or any other of the Prophets ? Is it Matthew , or any other of the Evangelists , or Apostles ? name the man , name the Church , name the time ; if you cannot , then say , your easie answering is no answer .

3. Arg. Ab Exemplis thus .

Names of such as professed the Protestants faith in all ages :

Christ , and his Apostles .

St. Iohn , Ignatius , Polycarpus , Iustinus Martyr , Irenaeus .

Tertullian , Clemens Alex : Origen , Cyprian , Lactantius .

Athanasius , Cyrill Hierosol : Ambrozius , Nyssenus , Hieronimus .

Ruffinus , Chrysostomus , Augustinus , Cyrillus Alex : Theodoretus , Socrates , Sozomenus .

Fulgentius , Evagrius , Gregorius primus .

Beda , Damascenus , Alcuinus .

Thus having gone halfe way I conclude with this Argument . The Protestant faith being that which is contained in Scriptures , was received and taught by all the Orthodox Fathers .

But the Fathers above named be all Orthodox . Ergo :

Now what answer doe you , Master Fisher , give to this Argument of mine ? not a word , unlesse to denie the conclusion , be to answer an Argument , I hope you will not acknowledge your selfe to be so ignorant in Logicke , you know the Rule : Ex veris possit nil nisi vera sequi

If my Premises be true , my Argument in forme ; as you neither deny my Premises , nor except against the forme of my Argument , the conclusion must follow , must be true ; for out of true Premises can follow no conclusion , but what is true : Arist. De Sophist . Elench . c. 17 , 18 , &c. this is not easie answering , but not answering . Looke into Aristotle concerning the duty of a Respondent , and the divers kinds of answering . You , not being able to answer this Argument , say , I must bring out some or other good Authors , who doe clearly shew these before named , to hold all , or some principall points of Protestant Faith , differing from the Catholicke Roman Faith . I have proved what I undertooke , and what is sufficient , by such Arguments as you cannot answer ; you dare not examine , but flye from them , knowing their strength , and your weaknesse . But you will have me prove them by Authors ; is any humane authoritie of a private man better then reason ? And what Authors would you have ? will not their owne profession , and their owne workes , together with the esteeme and reputation of Orthodox Writers , which they have had in all Ages , serve the turne to shew what their Faith was ? doe any men know what they did believe , or what they did professe , better then themselves ? As for your Roman Catholicke Faith , I have alreadie shewed , how fond , how vaine , how simple a conjunction you make of them ; that no child ordinarily of seven yeares of age , understanding the termes , but will wonder with what face you can say , That a part of a Church is a whole Church , that a part of a Kingdome is a whole Kingdome , that a part of mans Body is the whole Body .

You say also , that I must prove out of good Authors , that they doe not condemne any of the 39 Protestant Articles : Here you , not being able to answer ( as I thinke ) doe dissemble , conceale , and passe by what I did put downe in answer to this demand of yours : viz. 1. It is no prejudice to our Faith , if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions , not concerning Faith , as long as they maintaine our Faith . 2. The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all Ages , who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent , in some Doctrines established in the said Councell . This you can conceale , and passe over , knowing that you are not able to performe it , for your Councell of Trent . I undertooke for matters of Faith , not for secondarie Doctrines , to produce Authors in all Ages , professing our Faith , though they might dissent from us in other Doctrines of an inferior nature , not revealed in Scripture , nor belonging to the foundation and Principles of Christian Religion . As for the sufficiencie of my Arguments , I have already made it good , for any thing that you have yet spoken against them . Let us now see what you say further against them ?

CHAP. XVI .

Fisher .

WHo doth not also see , that the same Arguments may be more strongly retorted against Protestants , by onely altering the word Protestant into Catholick ? in regard our Catholick Doctrine may be , and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers , A most bold falshood . even by the confession of divers learned Protestants themselves .

Rogers .

All the proofe that this man will bring , is ( for ought I can see : or thus ( Who doth not see ? ) I doe not see : If it be granted , &c. ) as I have observed before : for if these Arguments might be retorted against the Protestants , by changing of one word , why did hee not performe the same ? I must doe it for him .

Major : The Faith contained in the Scriptures , had visible Professors in all Ages .

Minor : But the Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures .

Conclusion : Ergo , The Catholicke Faith had visible Professors in all Ages .

Here I have onely changed the word Protestant into Catholicke ; and what one word is here against Protestants , who doe hold , and professe no other Faith then what is contained in Scriptures ? as I have already shewed out of our sixt Article ; wee grant this whole Argument , Major , Minor , and Conclusion : which if you doe grant , I will take the Minor , and inferre a dangerous Conclusion against the Church of Rome thus :

The Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures .

The Roman Faith is not contained in the Scriptures .

Ergo , The Roman Faith is not the Catholicke Faith .

If you denie this Minor , as it seemes by those words of yours before alleadged , you will denie , viz. Our Catholick Doctrine may be , and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies of Scriptures , and Fathers , even by confession of learned Protestants themselves .

I will prove it ; yet first let me tell you , that here you deliver a most grosse untruth ; if by Catholick you meane Roman , to say that divers learned Protestants doe confesse , that your Roman doctrine may be , and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies of Scriptures , and Fathers . This , I say , is a most manifest and grosse untruth , seeing no learned Writers of our side doe say so much . Why doth Bellarmine make Scripture a part of the Rule , not the whole Rule , but to bring in unwritten Traditions ? writing a whole Booke de verbo Dei non scripto , of the unwritten Word of God .

And Valenza in his fourth Tome upon Thomas Aquinas is very full in seeking to prove the same in his first disputation de objecto fidei , delivering these Propositions , viz.

That the authoritie to judge in matters of Faith is not contained onely in Scripture , Disputatione prima , puncto septimo , quaestione tertia , Sect. 4. And againe , Sect. 5. The Scripture alone is not the Judge of Faith . As also , Sect. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. As also in the eight question , Sect. 44. in his Tract de Traditionibus Apostolicis . Neither doe I remember that ever I read any of your late Writers , but hold as these men did : so that in the opinion of these men you must be but halfe a Papist , because you receive but halfe that Rule of Faith which the Church of Rome receiveth : for ( not to trouble the Reader with the opinions of private men ) it is the first Doctrine , the first Decree of your Councell of Trent , the puritie of the Gospell ; Fontem omnis salutaris veritatis , Sess. 4. & morum disciplinae contineri in libris scriptis , & sine scripto Traditionibus . The fountaine of all saving Truth , and the guide of life is contained in the written Bookes , and unwritten Traditions . Have you any other Faith then the Councell of Trent ? This is , to be a Protestant in the maine point , in that which is the Rule of all other points of Faith and life , necessary for all men to know .

Is this your easie answering , Master Fisher , to grant your Adversarie that which hee most desireth ; to dissent from your Councell of Trent ? would you but adde this to what you have written , which followes necessarily , I will not subscribe to Bellarmine , I will not be led by Valenza , herein I will leave the Councell of Trent , I will hold no Doctrine which is not proved by plaine testimonie of Scripture , without flying unto unwritten Traditions ; I would rejoyce to see you a Protestant in the maine ground-worke , and Principle of all our Religion , hoping , that if you continue in this mind , you will shortly agree in the rest .

Now let us see how the second Argument may be retorted against the Protestants , by onely changing the word Protestant into Catholicke .

2. Arg. A Signis ,

The Faith which hath testimonies of Antiquitie , Vniversalitie , and consent of Fathers , and other Writers in all Ages , had visible Professors in all Ages .

But the Faith of Catholickes had these testimonies .

Ergo , The Faith of Catholickes had visible Professors in all Ages .

What one word is here against Protestants ? wee grant both the Premises and Conclusion , so doe not you . For they be your owne words within a few lines , viz. That some points were at first , not held necessarie to be believed , even by Orthodox Fathers , which after by examination , and definition of the Church , in Generall Councels , were made so necessarie to be believed , as that whosoever did not believe them were accounted not Orthodox , but Haereticks .

These are your owne words ; from whence it doth follow , that many necessarie points were denied in precedent Ages by Orthodox Fathers ; and thence it must follow againe , that they wanted the testimonie of all Ages , being denied in some Ages by the Orthodox Fathers . Such testimonies the Articles of your Roman Faith may have , yet Orthodox Fathers denie them : and therefore , to frame the Arguments againe , not according to your words , which I have done already , by changing Protestant into Catholicke , but into Roman , for that I thinke you understand by Catholicke . Let it be thus :

The Faith contained in the Scriptures had visible Professors in all Ages .

But the Roman Faith is contained in the Scriptures .

Ergo , The Roman Faith had visible Professors in all Ages .

Would to God your Minor were true , I would be glad to meet with you in the Conclusion . But I have already shewed out of your owne Writers , and Councell of Trent , that you hold the contrary ; and your new Creed being examined by Scripture , will finde more contradiction there then proofe ; unwritten traditions equalled to the word of God ; Seven Sacraments improperly so called ; halfe Communion ; Transubstantiation ; Invocation of Saints ; worshipping of Images have neither testimony of Scriptures nor Fathers ; this you know well enough , and therefore you could passe over a great deale of my Reply without any mention of what I had replied : My words were these ; Having gone thus farre at this time , I undertake for the rest , and doe require the like from the Romanists , viz.

That they would shew me the names of such as taught the now faith of the Church of Rome in all ages , and let them set me downe the names as I have done .

And for instances in points of Roman faith in all ages , I require these men to shew me the names of those who in the first , second , third Centurie of yeares , did preach , or professe unwritten Traditions to be the rule of faith .

Secondly , that the vulgar Latine translation is authenticall . Thirdly , that there are seven Sacraments , improperly so called , and no more . Fourthly , that the bookes of Machabees are Canonicall . Fiftly , Transubstantiation . Sixtly , Invocation of Saints . Seventhly , worshipping of Images , &c.

This rule ( of shewing the names of such as professed the faith in all ages ) is proposed by them , which though it be no necessary consequence of faith , yet it bindeth them that propose it to make it good in particular .

Out of their owne Position thus I argue .

First Argument .

That is a true Church whose faith hath had visible professors in all ages , whose names may be shewed out of good Authors to be such .

The Romish faith had not such visible professors in all ages .

Ergo : The Roman is not a true Church .

Second Argument .

The true faith hath the testimonies of Vniversalitie , Antiquitie , and Consent .

But the Romish faith ( as farre as they differ from the Protestants faith , which they doe in all the points above alledged , hath not testimonies of Vniversalitie , Antiquitie , and Consent .

Ergo : The Romish faith in those points wherein they differ from the Protestants faith , is not a true faith .

Let the Romanists answer these two Arguments in those particular points above written , and I will be of their Church .

Thus much in my former answer , to which you have made no replie at all , you have neither given any instance which point of my faith is not contained in Scriptures , or wanteth the testimony of Vniversalitie , Antiquitie , and Consent , or was not beleeved , and professed by those Fathers by me alledged .

Secondly , you have not answered to those instances of Roman faith , though I required it but for three ages , nor to the Arguments which I made against you , though this were a rule of your owne , to shew names in all ages , and denied by me to be a necessary consequence of faith ; onely this you say , first , that my grounds are slight , and may fit all sorts of Hereticks , and you instance in the Anabaptists . Secondly , you say my grounds are false , to both which I will reply when I have made out my Catalogue for the other succeeding ages before Luther .

CHAP. XVII .

THough my faith relie not upon this Catalogue of names , or humane authority as I have formerly often professed ; yet to provoke and draw on the Romanists to make good what they have undertaken , viz to bring a Catalogue of such good Authors as they require from us , who did in al ages professe the now Roman faith contained in the Creed of Pius Quartus , dated at Rome in the year 1564. Which I assure my selfe they cannot doe , and I doe verily perswade my selfe never meane to attempt ; onely because they would say some thing , they will lay a false ground , and require their Adversaries to build upon those Sands , which when we have done , they will never proceed to doe as much for their faith ; but cavill at others , and never speake any thing in defence of their owne faith ; being assured in their consciences that it is impossible they should be able to performe it . First , for the novelty of those points of faith acknowledged by some of themselves . Secondly , for the want of learning and good Authours in many of the succeeding ages . For to speake a little of the first , what Authors can they finde for their halfe Communion in the first ages , seeing it is confessed by most of them that ever I heard , or read , that the contrary was practised for a thousand yeeres after Christ ? This much was acknowledged by one , who ( as I have been since informed ) was a Iesuite , in the presence and hearing of Sir Sa. A. of his Lady , Master Westph . and others . And your most industrious quoter Master Briereley can finde no Author for it before the Councell of Constance , which was 1400 yeeres after the comming of Christ in the flesh ; unlesse he relie upon the Haereticks , the Maniches . What Authors will they finde in the first ages for worshipping of Images , for Purgatory , for Invocation of Saints , for Indulgences , & c ? as I have before mentioned . If they be able to descend but three ages from Christ , and produce good Authors which did beleeve these , and make them matters of faith , as the Church of Rome now doth , I will be of their Church , I will leave the Church of England ; nay , I will leave ( which I will not doe for a thousand Empires ) my hope of heaven . This offer of theirs I know to be so vaine , false , impudent , and impossible .

Secondly , It is very hard for him that hath no other meanes to prove his Church , and his faith , then by a Catalogue of names drawne out of Histories , or other good Authors , to have any certainty of his Church , or faith , because of the ignorance of many ages , and want of good Authors .

Baronius who spent all his life in this search , Tom. 2. ●n. 1. and in describing the state and condition of the Church in all ages , complaineth of this difficultie , saying , that it is most hard to be knowne , and like the way of a ship in the midst of the Sea , and the way of a Serpent upon a Rocke . This is his complaint in the beginning of his second Tome , yet hath he more cause to complaine of this difficulty in those succeeding ages , whereof I am now to give a Catalogue ; Canus l. 11. c. 6. which times the learned Causabon doth doubt whether he shall call them times of ignorance , or times of wonder : S. Tho. Moor in ep. ante Dial. Luciani . In Chrond . the most Historians of those times , being but Legendaries of Fables , as is confessed by many of your owne side . Bellarmine saith of the ninth age , Vide seculum infoelix in quo nulli scriptores illustres , nulla Concilia , Pontifices parum solliciti de Rep. Behold , an unfortunate age in which there were no famous Writers , no Councels , and the Popes tooke little care of the common good . An age saith Baronius usually stiled , an abscure , a leaden , and an iron age , as barren of good , as if it had been iron ; so loaded with evill , as if it had beene with a burthen of lead ; and obscure for want of Writers : saying also ; The weake conscience is to be admonished that he be not troubled , if he see the abomination of desolation , sitting in the Temple . In this age there rose such a mighty flood of wickednesse , as that the ship of Peter might have seemed to have been overwhelmed with the waves , and forsaken almost of any Governour , n. 2. Certainely the Church never seemed to be in greater hazard , or more manifest danger of utter ruine then in that age ; for the persecutions of Heathens of Haereticks , of Shismaticks , were but childish sports in comparison of what the Church suffered in this age , n. 3.

An. 900. n. 1. Stephen was an invader of the Apostolicke See , was driven out , cast into prison , and there strangled .

b b An 908. n. 1. Christopher was violently deposed , bound , cast into prison , and constrained to become a Monke . After him Sergius , mounteth into the Chaire , being powerfull in the forces of the Marquesse of Tuscanie . * * Vitiorum omnium servus , facinorosissimus omnium , quem constat post malum ingressum deterioremque progressum , pessimum demum esse consecutum egressum . This was a man that was the slave of all vices , the most wicked of all men ; bad was his entrance , worse was his proceeding but worst of all was his end ; all men cry him down for no lawfull Pope , but for an Intruder . numb . 2.

Divers of these usurping Popes were to be termed not Apostolicall , but Apostaticall , n. 4. c c Theodora Scortum impudens , Romanae civitatis Monarchiam obtinebat , quae duas habuit natas Maroziam atque Theodoram sibi non solum aequales , verumetiam Veneris exortivo promptiores . Harum una Marozia ex Papa Sergio Ioannem , qui post Ioannis Ravennatis obitum , Sanctae Romanae ecclesiae obtinuit dignitatem , nesario genuit adulterio Lutprandus , lib. 2. cap. 13. An. 912. n. 7. Theodora an impudent Whore did rule all the rost in Rome , she had two daughters , Marozia , & Theodora , two verier Whores then her selfe . The first of these had by Pope Sergius , a sonne called Iohn , who was afterwards Pope of Rome . She and her daughters were so powerfull by their bawdery , and whoredome , that they placed Popes , and displaced them at their pleasure . numb . 6.

Who considering these things would not thinke that God had forgotten his Church . n. 7. So great were the evills of this whole age , ibidem .

The Queene Theodora did raise one Iohn a Minister of Ravennas , ( whom she shamefully loved ) to be Pope . Such was the unfortunate condition of the holy Church of Rome at that time , that all things were governed and altered at the pleasure of a powerfull Whore . Lando was no true Pope , n. 12. d d An. 915. n. 3. Iohn the 10 , was an Intruder , a Theefe , a Ruffian , e e An. 925. n. 12. Quo turpior nullus cujus ingressus insamissimus , exitus infandissimus , dignus quem infamis foemina , infami opere in Petri solium intrusisset : The filthiest of all men , who entred the Popedome shamefully , and ended wickedly , a fit man to be thrust by an infamous woman into the Chaire of Saint Peter . Note the visibility of the Church of Rome . O what was then the face of the holy Church of Rome , was it not most foule and filthy , when powerfull and base Whoores did rule all at Rome ? at whose pleasure Sees were changed , Bishops were made , and which will make a man tremble to heare , and is more wicked then can be spoken , their lovers falsly termed Popes thrust into Peters Chaire , who had never been written in the Catalogue of Roman Bishops , had it not been thereby to reckon the yeares , and set downe the times . For who can say that these men thrust in by Whoores without Law were lawfull Roman Bishops ? There was no man at all of the Cleargies Election or consent , all Canons were silenced , Decrees of Popes smoothered , ancient Traditions , and old Customes in chusing the Pope were banished , the holy Ceremonies , and former use were wholly extinguished . Lust backed with worldly power , mad , Dormiebat , tunc planè ( ut apparet ) sopore Christus . and franticke with a desire of rule , challenged all unto her selfe . It appeareth plainely that Christ was then in a dead sleep in the ship , when the strong winds thus blowing , the ship it selfe was covered with the waves . Ista non vtdere dissimulans . I say , hee was asleepe , who dissembling , as if hee did not see those things , did suffer them so to be done , and did not rise to vengeance . And that which did seeme worse , there were no Disciples , who with their cries would awake their Master , thus sleeping ; for they were all asleepe , that they snored againe . And what kind of Presbyter , and Deacon Cardinals , shall wee thinke were chosen by such Monsters , seeing nothing is more firmly graffed in nature , then this , that like should beget like ? And who can doubt , but that these did in all things consent unto those by whom they were chosen ? And who will not easily believe that they did imitate them , and tread in their steps ? And who cannot understand , that all these did wish that Christ had slept for ever , Anno 912. n. 8. and should never wake , nor rise in judgement to examine and punish their offences . Thus farre Baronius .

But you will aske mee , what needeth so much labour in shewing that wee had some bad times , and some bad Popes ? for so you are used to extenuate all that wee alleadge in this kind . You say , that Christ himselfe , having but twelve Apostles , had one devill amongst them . But what I have alleadged here , doth shew , that divers of those who supplied the place of Christ himselfe , his Vicars generall upon earth , as you terme them , men to whom the Church is essentially joyned , and must be obedient , were devils , monsters , the dearlings of Whores , some of them Bastard children of Popes , by these notorious Whores ; and all their Priests , Deacons and Cardinals like themselves , so Atheisticall in their courses and desires , as to wish that Christ might sleepe everlastingly , and never rise to judgement : nay , the visible government of the Roman Church , which you will have to be the onely Church , was not so much in them , as in these whores , who made and unmade Bishops and Popes , without any regard of Canons , or Customes Ecclesiasticall ; and this wickednes was praevalent , not for a few years , or a few Popes , but for this whole Age , Toto hoc saeculo , saith Baronius , which is for 100 yeares . Yet you Romanists will have all Christians in the world to behold , and to be led by the visible Roman Church , though the face , and whatsoever was visible therein , was most foule and filthy , not onely in him who sate in the Chaire of Peter , as you say ; but also in all his Consistorie , in all his Deacons , Priests and Cardinals . But you will say , These were no Popes ; then will I say , that by your Doctrine , you had no Church : for the Pope is now a part of the definition of the Church with you , and therefore no Pope , no Church . You know the Rule , A parte definitionis negative sequitur argumentum .

Or will you say ( for so Baronius doth ) Shall any man , shall all men in the world pin their soules upon the sleeves of such Monsters ? cleave unto them , and be obedient unto them , only because they sate in the Chaire , though usurpingly ? And will you undertake to prove your Church to have had visible Professors in all Ages , when in a whole Age there was nothing visible , but what your selves are ashamed to looke backe upon ? You will have much adoe to find a Catalogue of names in this Age , because you must not goe out of the Roman Church : but wee acknowledge the Greeke , Aethiopian , Indian , Armenian , Syrian Churches , have a larger scope , and shall more easily passe through this difficultie , seeing there was in this Age , in Armenia , one Nico magnus , Baron . An. 961. n. 4 , 8 , 10. Anno 976. n. 2. 980. n. 7 , 8 , 9. & sanctus Orientis Praeco ; a great and holy Preacher of the East : and the Church of Greece had in this Age , two men famous for learning and holinesse , Nilus and Nico , as the same Baronius confesseth .

CHAP. XVIII . Shewing a threefold Catalogue of Names from the Age wherein my former Catalogue did end , unto Luthers time , of such as professed and received the Faith , and Sacraments of the reformed Church , whom the Papists call Protestants .

MY first Catalogue ( Mr. Fisher ) shall be of Bishops , Pastors , and Writers of the Latine Church , such as are acknowledged by your Church for Orthodox , men of a right Faith .

Ab Anno 800 , ad 900.

Agobardus Episcopus Rem . Rabanus Maurus Moganti : Hincmarus Rem . Amalarius Fortunatus . Leo 3. Episcopus Rom. Ionas Aurelianensis . Walafridus Strabo . Theodulphus Aurelianensis .

Ab Anno 900 , ad 1000.

Baron . An. 901. n. 10. Theodulphus Episcopus legatus Regis Franc. in Concilio Ovetensi .

Ermenegildus primus Archiepisc . Ovetensis in Gallaecia .

Baron . An. 900. n. 10. Fulco Remensis laudatissimus ille Archiepiscopus , columen Francorum .

Baron . An. 904. Grimbaldus Presbyter vir magnae sanctitatis in Anglia .

Iohannes Papa 9. qui tribus Conciliis à se celebratis summam sibi laudem comparavit . — velut alter Ieremias , in cujus Epitaphio inter alia haec habentur . Conciliis docuit ternis qui dogma salutis , & mox . Et firmata fides quem docuêre Patres .

146. Baron . An. 905. n. 4. Herveus Remensis , who first converted the Normans to the Faith , and held a Synod , in which they said , That the Rock whereon Christ promised to build his Church , was the confession of Peter . At this Councell were present also ,

Rothomagensis Archiepiscopus .

Rodolphus Landunensis Episcopus .

Trodoardus Hist. Rem . l. 4. c. 13. Baron . An. 930. Erlimus Bellovacensis Episcopus : aliique multi . Whose names are subscribed .

This Herveus held many Synods .

Vnus Hambargensis Archiepiscopus qui convertit Danos .

Glaber temporis ejus auctor . Hist. l. 2. c. 11 , 12. Baron . An. 100 n. 4. Tom. 10. Lib. de officiis Missae edito Parisiis , Anno 1610. Bellarm. de Script . Ab Anno 1000 , ad 1100.

Lebuinus Episcopus in Gallis , qui populum suum ex parte deceptum Catholicae plenius restituit fidei .

Anno 1000. Baronius , n. 3.

Petrus Archiepiscopus Ravennas qui Vilgardum Haereticum docentem fidei sacrae contraria damnavit .

Berno Augiensis Abbas qui testatur post Evangelium , in missa recitari Symbolum Constantinopolitanum , & à Concilio Toletano statutum , id omni die Dominico secundum morem Orientalium Ecclesiarum decantari . In hoc Authore miror Bellarmini oscitantiam , ne quid gravius dicam , qui ita scripsit . Ex quo libro , cap. 2. ( viz. Baronius de officio Missae ) discimus hoc primum tempore , coepisse in Rom. Ecclesia cani ad Missam Symbolum fidei . Cum contrarium doceat Walafridus Strabo , lib. de rebus Ecclesiasticis , cap. 22. Qui vixit aliquot seculis ante Bernonem , obiit enim ut placet Hiltorpio , Anno 849. Berno autem , Anno 1048. Et ipse ordo Romanus idem doceat apud Hiltorpium , col . 4. Miror inquam , quod non distinxerit ambiguitatem vocis Romanae , quae pro Latina Ecclesia saepe usurpatur , cum hic intra urbem , & suburbicanas Ecclesias vel saltem intra Italiae fines claudatur ut apparet ex Bernone .

Micrologus , whose Bookes of Ecclesiasticall Observations , Pamelius doth preferre before all others that wrote upon that subject ; as Amalarius Walafridus doth witnesse , Cap. 46. that Creed in Vnum , &c. viz. The Creed commonly reputed the Nicene Creed , Iuxta Canones in omni Dominica debet cantari , & in omnibus , &c. according to the Canons , is to be read upon every Lords day . In his 19 chapter hee is very full for communicating in both kinds , citing Ordo Romanus , and Iulius , Papa 36. & Gelasius , Papa 51. very peremptorie in this kind . This Author lived about the yeare 1080 , saith Pamelius in his Preface before the worke .

Ivo Carnotensis Episcopus , who speaketh of our Sacraments , and of the Apostles Creed professed in Baptisme , Serm. de Sacramentis . And in his Sermon De Convenientia veteris , & novi sacrificii , he briefly proveth all the chiefe heads of Christian Faith ; who in the later end of that Sermon speaketh of communicating in both kinds . And in his Sermon De coena Domini , hee saith , Let none of the Faithfull this day absent himselfe . Dwell you in Christ , that Christ may dwell in you , and you be worthy Receivers of his Body and Blood . Hee in his Sermon , In Cathedra Sancti Petri , saith , That that Feast was in memoriall of that day wherein Peter at Antioch was made Bishop , and Pastor of Gods people — And that hee was called Peter , because of the confession of his Faith .

Ab Anno 1100 , ad 1200.

Sanctus Bernardus . Rupertus , Tutiensis .

Algerus , who denieth your halfe Communion , citing those words of Pascasius ; under the name of Saint Augustine , Nec caro sine sanguine , Lib. 2. de corpor . & sang . Christ . cap. 8. Bellarm. nec sanguis sine carne ritè communicatur .

Rich. de Sancto Victore , who refuseth your Canon of the Bible .

Hugo de Sancto Victore , who denieth Penance to be a Sacrament .

Ab Anno 1200 , ad 1300.

Alexander of Hales , who denieth the Sacrament of Confirmation , as a Sacrament to be instituted by Christ , parte 4. q. 5. membro 2.

Hugo Cardinalis , Bonaventura ,

Both which denie your Canon of the Bible ; Hugo , in his Prologue before Ecclesiasticus , Bonaventura pr. parte . q. 89. Art. 8. ad 2. Gulielmus Episcopus Parisiensis .

Ab Anno 1300 , ad 1400.

Lib. 4. Sent. dist. 26. Durandus , hee denies Matrimonie to be a Sacrament .

Nicholaus Lyranus , hee holdeth the same Canon of the Bible that wee doe , and denieth yours .

Franciscus Mayron . Qui inter alia scripsit de Articulis fidei .

Simon de Cassia . Qui scripsit expositionem Symboli Apostolici .

Ab Anno 1400 , ad 1500.

Dionysius Carthusianus , who denies your Canon of the Bible ; Prologo in Ecclesiasticum .

Gregorius Heymburgensis , who wrote against the Popes Supremacie .

Panormitanus . Picus Mirandula .

Hist. Trid. Concilii . Sleidanus in Commentariis . Thomas Cajetanus , who had conference with Luther .

All these are Latine Authors , acknowledged by you of the Roman Church for Orthodox , at least two of them in every Age , which were sufficient ; but I can make it good for all , out of Bellarmine , Baronius , Surius , Hiltorpius , or Synods , allowed by your Church . Thus therefore I argue :

Major : All orthodox , or right believing Christians doe receive and professe the Apostles Creed , the Bookes of old and new Testament , received for Canonicall by the Fathers of the first 400 yeares , together with the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper , which the Protestants professe .

Minor : But these Authors aforenamed in my Catalogue , from the yeare 800 , to the yeare 1500 , are all orthodox , or right believing . Ergo ,

Conclusio . All these Authors aforenamed in my Catalogue , from the yeare 800 , to the yeare 1500 , doe receive , and professe the Apostles Creed , the said Bookes of the old and new Testament , the two Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper , which the Protestants receive and professe .

Or thus :

Major : Whosoever receive our whole Faith , and all our Sacraments , are of our Church , and wee of theirs .

Minor : But all these Authors receive our whole Faith , and all our Sacraments . Ergo ,

Conclusio : All these Authors are of our Church , and wee of theirs .

But you , having another Faith , a new Creed , new Articles cannot prove these , or any other to have held that your new Faith entirely ; and I have shewed most of these Authors expresly to denie , some one , some another Article of your new Creed : so that a man may be orthodox , and yet denie your Faith , your Creed .

No man can be saved that denieth the true Faith .

But many are saved who denie the Roman Faith .

Ergo , The Roman Faith is not the true Faith .

The Major I know you will not denie . The Minor you must grant , or your Saints , and greatest Writers were damned for want of your Faith .

A second Catalogue , viz. of Greeke Authors , who being of the Greeke Church , did professe our Scriptures , Faith , Sacraments , and Councels : but doe reject divers points of the Roman Faith , and all the Councels of the Latines since the yeare 800 ; as appeareth by their profession in the Councell at Ferrara , made by Marcus Bishop of Ephesus , Sess. 5. in a grave and learned speech , recorded by your owne Surius in the fourth Tome of Councels imprinted at Colonia Agrippina , Anno 1567.

Definitiones , & Decreta aliarum omnium Synodorum recitanda nobis videntur , ut haec nostra Synodus non solum ab illis non discrepare , verumetiam ipsas in omnibus imitari velle videatur , quoniam nos firmiter credimus majores nostros nil prorsus silentio praeterjiffe quod ad nostrum fidei Symbolum spectet . Marcus Ephesinus in Generali 8. Synodo Sess. 3. apud Surium Tom. 3. Pag. 375.

Porro autem quoniam de Divinis primi ac alterius Concilii dogmatibus , nil aliud reperitur nisi duae tantem fidei nostrae expositiones , hoc est , duo Symbola quae tamen pro uno a caeteris Conciliis suscepta fuerant : idcirco à recitandis tertii Concilii gestis auspicandum nobis censemus , vobis probare promittimus Christianorum omnium unam esse , Catholicam fidem , ad quam accessionem aliquem fieri , aut quicquam ab ea non liceat auferri . In primis ergo Nicenum Symbolum à trecentis decem , & octo Patribus Niceae celebratum , recitetur . Legatur etiam ejusdem Concilii definitio , ut idem Nicenum Symbolum immutabile , ac immobile permaneret , neminique fas esset aliam fidem proferre , Sess. 5. Quartum Concilium , viz. Ephesinum definit , atque determinat , ut aliam fidem conscribere , aut componere , aut sentire , aut docere liceat nemini .

Concilium 5. viz. Constantinopol . idem definit , & qui aliud Symbolum docuissent anathemati subjiciunt . Sic etiam 6. Concilium seu Trullanum priora Concilia & dictum Symbolum amplectitur , & obsignat . Sic etiam 7. ac ultimum generale Concilium , Hactenus Marcus Ephes. ibidem .

Ab anno 800. ad 900.

1. Theodotus Melissenus . 2. Iohannes Sixtus . 3. Photius .

All these three were Patriarchs of Constantinople , as is acknowledged by Baronius an. 835. n. 25. All zealous adversaries to your worshipping of Images ; for which Baronius there calleth the first Haereticum Iconoclastam , an haereticall Image-breaker ;

The second , Haeresis promulgatorem acerrimum .

The third , namely Photius , held a Councell at Constantinople , planè numerosum admodum Concilium , it was a very full Councell , in so much as Michael the Emperour gloried that it equalled the number of the Fathers of the great Nicen Councell , teste Baron . an. 861. n. 1. This was accounted a Generall Councell by Photius , and by Theodorus Balsamon Comenting upon it , Sic ait Baron : ibid. n. eodem . In this Councell was condemned the worshipping of Images .

Ab anno 900. ad 1000.

Nilus Calaber . Habuit hoc saeculo Graeca Ecclesia duos , doctrina , & sanctitate illustres , Nilum Calabrum , & Niconem Lacedemon . Baron . an. 900. n. 8.

Nico. Lacedemon . Hic non à Graecis solum , sed etiam à Latinis inter Sanctos est relatus , Baron . an. 961.

Ab anno 1000. ad 1100.

Simeon Armenus . Vir Sanctus , & verae fidei Professor . Baro. an. 1016. n. 7. 8.

Theophilactus Episcopus Bulgarorum . He in his writings imitateth Saint Chrysostome , but he is a Schismaticke , saith Bellar. de scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis .

Ab anno 1100. ad an. 1200.

Euthimius Zigabenus , who wrote against all Haeresies , and upon the 4. Evangel. Bellarm. de Scriptoribus Ecclesiae .

Theodorus Balsamon , Who commented upon Photius his Nicene Canon , and divers Councels . He was an enemie to the Church of Rome , saith Bellarm.

Ab Anno 1200. ad 1300.

Arsenius Patriarcha Constantin : A man for vertue , and the service of God not farre short of the highest perfection , ut Nicephorus Gregor. lib. 3. p. 31. edit. Basiliensis , an. 1562. cum Caesarea Majest. privilegiis .

Gregorius Patriarcha , Idem Gregor. l. 6 pag. 80.

Ioannes Glices , Patriarch also of Constantin . a most learned , grave , wise man above all men , Nicephorus Gregoras , lib. 8. pag. 123. & . 132.

Ab Anno 1300. ad 1400.

Catechuzenus . Pachimaerus . Nicephorus Gregoras .

These three were Fathers of the 14 age , saith Bzonius in the end of that age . Tom. 13. in his Supplement of Baron . his Ecclesiasticall History , an. 1299. They did teach contrary to the doctrine of the Haereticks ( so Baronius calleth us ) but I may truly say that the first , and last of the three teach contrary to their faith , and so the other professed , or he could not be of the Greeke Church , who deny the Popes primacie of power , deny Purgatory , Communicate in both kinds .

For Catechuzenus , in the election of Iohn Bishop of Constantinople , doth say , that all Bishops of greater , or lesser Cities receive equall grace . Baronius addeth his owne Glosse , saying , True equall grace , of Order , not of Iurisdiction .

Nicephorus in his 10 booke , disputeth at large against the Latine Church , à pag. 230 ad finem ejusdem libri .

To. 6. Bibl. Sanct. pag. 99. Ep. ad lect. To these I may adde Cabasilas , whom together with Balsamon , Genebrard calleth two famous Greeke Fathers , for which words he is blamed by M. De la Bigne , who calleth the same men Schismaticks , and enemies to the Church of Rome , Tom. 6. Bibl. Sanct. pag. 101. 102.

Gentianus Hervetus , another of your side , doth write in defence of Cabasilas , in his Preface to the Reader , before Cabasilas his booke , intituled , A Compendious Interpretation upon the Divine Sacrifice , extant dicto 6 Tom. Bibl. Sanctae pag. 159. But he is thus blamed by your De la Bigne .

Dealbat Aethiopem . Gentianus labouring to excuse Cabasilas , doth but wash a Blackamoore ; for it is manifest he was a Schismaticke , that he burned with hatred against the Church of Rome , and wrote an Haereticall Booke against Tho. Aquinas . Yet he is placed by Bellarmine amongst his Ecclesiasticall Writers , in a distinct Columne also of his Chronologie from Haereticks .

Ab Anno 1400 , ad 1500.

Marcus Ephesinus , Insignis Theologus , as hee is stiled in the Acts of the Councell of Florence , Sessione 2. apud Surium , Tom. 4.

Laonicus Chalcondilas , who being of the Greeke Church , testifieth , that the agreement made at Florence , was not received in Greece . lib. 1. de rebus Turcicis non longè à principio .

Thus have I finished my Catalogue of Greeke Writers , having many more to insert , if any just exception can be given against these . I will conclude concerning them , with these two Arguments : the one , to prove that they were of our Faith and Church ; the other , to prove that they were not of the Roman Faith , or Church , thus :

All they that doe professe the Apostles Creed , as it was explicated in the Nicene Councell , that receive the Scriptures received by the Protestants , that receive the foure first Generall Councels , and the two Sacraments of Baptisme and the Eucharist under lawfull Pastors , are of the Protestants Faith , and Church .

But those Authors , as all others of the Greeke Church did professe , and receive the said Creed , Scriptures , Councels and Sacraments under lawfull Pastors .

Ergo , They are of the Protestants Faith and Church .

The Proposition is A definitione ad Definitum , the most demonstrative substantiall proofe that reason can find . The Assumption appeareth by the profession of the Grecians at Ferrara , whereof I have cited a part above in the beginning of this Catalogue ; and it may be seene more fully in their owne Surius , Tom. 4. Conciliorum loco supra citato .

None of those who denie the Popes Supremacie , Purgatorie , Transubstantiation , and Communion in one kind , are of the Roman Faith and Church .

But all these aforenamed , being of the Greeke Church , denie the Popes Supremacie , Purgatorie , Transubstantiation , and Communion in one kind .

Ergo , They are not of the Roman Faith , and Church .

A Catalogue of Councels Generall or Provinciall in all Ages , which did professe our Faith .

TO name particular men in all Ages , who did professe our Faith , receive our Scriptures and Sacraments , is not to prove our Church extant in all Ages ; for one man is not a Church , no more then one member , as hand , or foot is the body , or one Citizen is a Citie , or one subject is a Kingdome . I have therefore thought it fit , out of my many yeares reading , observation , and collection , to prove , that not onely some particular men , but also whole Churches , that is , a societie of many men professing our Faith , Scripture , and Sacraments , have beene in all Ages : to this end , I have put downe a Catalogue of Councels in all Ages ( which Councels are justly termed , The Church representative ) who professe our Faith , Scriptures , and Sacraments , although the maine proofe is in that of Faith , which includeth the rest : for this Faith hath no other object then the Scriptures Canonicall , and receiveth no Sacraments but what are contained in the Scriptures , and instituted by God . And because all Councels did not record , nor publish all those things which were done of course , and observed at the opening , and in the beginning of every Councell ; I thought it would prove satisfactorie to the Reader , that he should be acquainted , how they never began Councels without solemn Prayers , or Masse , as the Romanists call it : and that in every Masse our Creed is repeated , as appeareth by their Missals , and those Authors in the Margin , which are Expositors of the Masse : so that seeing our Creed is professed in every Masse , and all Councels begin with a solemne Masse , it followeth , that all Councels did professe our Faith . Yea , over and besides this , I will adde other proofes ; as 1 , an Injunction that it should be so . 2. Historicall testimonie that it was so . First , Ordo Romanus , published by Hiltorpius at Paris , anno 1610. col. 171. in the order for the first day , of holding a Councell after some Prayers which are there set downe , concludeth thus ; Then all men keeping silence , Tunc tacentibus cunctis ex Niceno Concilio fides Catholica à Di●cono legatur . let the Catholicke Faith be read by the Deacon out of the Nicene Councell : I believe in one God the Father Almightie , maker of all things visible and invisible . Then the Deacon shall bring forth the Book of the Canons , and reade the Chapters concerning the manner of holding Councels , out of the fourth Councell of Toledo . Thus you see it was commanded , that the Creed which wee professe should be professed in the beginning , and opening of every Councell , since the time of that Ordo Romanus , which , whether it were as ancient as Charles the Great , in which time it was brought to France , Hitorpius in praefatione . or more ancient in Rome , as being for the substance made by Gregorie the first , it will serue my turne for succeeding Ages . But in my Historicall observation I will ascend higher , and to the Apostles times .

This Creed , saith Baronius , An. 44. n. 18. Act. Conc. Calce . Eph. Constin . 2. et aliorum . ( speaking of the Apostles Creed ) the Catholicke Church hath alwaies had in such esteeme , as that in all sacred Generall Councels , it was the custome to repeate it as a grround-worke , or foundation of the whole Ecclesiasticall building .

All men thought it fit , Prayers being solemnly performed and finished , to make confession of their Faith after the manner of Generall Councels . Conc. Tol. 6. apud Surium , Tom. 2. pag. 741. col. 1 , & 2.

The ancient Decrees of the Fathers were reverently confirmed , in Consilio Romano more solito , after the usuall manner . Vrspergensis , cited also by Baronius , anno 102. n. 1.

It was required by the Graecians in the Councell of Florence , begun at Ferrara , Sess. 3. apud Surium . That the Councell might begin with reciting the Definitions and Decrees of the seven precedent Generall Councels ; not onely ( say they ) that it may appeare wee dissent not from them , but also that wee may imitate them : for wee firmly believe , &c. And , Sess. 5 they cited the Decree of the fifth Councell , saying thus ; All men should preserve the foundation of Faith , and observe that Creed wherin they were baptized ; which the Nicene Councell commended to posteritie , received by the Councell of Constantinople , approved by the Councell of Ephesus , and sealed up by the Councell of Chalcedon : all which wee also receive . Thus far the words of the fifth Councell , then and there urged by the Graecians , together with the 6th and 7th Councell to the same effect .

Having laid this ground-work , that all lawfull Councels , and orthodox , recieved and published by the Romanists themselves , for such did professe our Faith , it were sufficient for mee to name approved Councels in every Age , without any further observation in particular ; yet for the greater benefit of the Reader I will doe more , beginning even with the Apostles themselves .

A Catalogue of Councels which did professe our Faith in every Age , beginning with the Apostles ; the first Age from the Nativitie of our blessed Saviour , Seculum 1. to the 100th yeare .

Act. 1. 1. Councell of the Apostles . Act. 6. 2. Councell of the Apostles . Act. 15. 3. Councell of the Apostles . Act. 21. 4. Councell of the Apostles . IN the yeare 34 , saith Baronius , n. 237. for to chuse an Apostle into the place of Iudas . Surius , Tom. 1. Conc. p. 17.

Wherein the seven Deacons were ordained the first yeare after the death of Christ , saith Surius , Tom. 1. Conc. pag. 18. Anno 34. saith Baron .

Concerning Circumcision , and the Ceremoniall Law of Moses . This was 14 yeares after the death of Christ , saith Surius in the place above cited . An. 51. saith Baronius .

Wherein Paul was advised to purifie foure persons after the Law of Moses , for to pacifie the Jewes who were incensed against him , as an enemie to Moses .

The ordinary Glosse , and Surius observe only these foure ; some adde two more , one Acts 4. another Acts 11. I will adde one more , not mentioned in the Scripture , but mentioned by many Fathers ; as Ruffinus , Ierome , Augustine , Leo , Venantius , Albinus , Flaccus , & alii .

5. Councell of the Apostles . Wherein they composed the Apostles Creed , being now ready to depart one from another , as a Rule of preaching , whereby it might be discerned who did preach Christ according to the Rules of the Apostles : so saith Ruffinus , who lived about the yeare 400.

This assembly is recorded by Baronius , in the yeare 44. n. 7. which was before the two later Councels mentioned ; the one , Acts 15 , and the other , Acts 21. I thinke Master Fisher will not denie , but these Councels professed the Apostles Creed .

From the yeare 100 , to 200. Seculum 2. The 2 Age.

Anno 190. Wherein were Presidents , 1. A Councell in Palestina . Theophilus Bishop of Caesarea , and Narcissus Bishop of Ierusalem , Eusebius , lib. 5. cap. 21. 2. A Councell in Rome .

Under Victor . Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 11. Anno 198. saith Baronius .

Wherein was President , 3. A Councell of the Bishops of Pontus . 4. A Councell in Gaul . Palma . Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 21. Anno 198. Baronius .

Wherein was President , St Irenaeus , whose learned Booke against Haereticks is extant . Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 21.

Wherein Polycrates was President , who dissented from the other Councels in the day of celebrating Easter , 5. A Councell in the lesser Asia . and of Fasting , and were therefore excommunicated by Victor Bishop of Rome .

But this pleased not all the Bishops ( who were of this opinion ) who did advise him to relish those things which might further peace , unitie , and love with his neighbours ; especially the forenamed Saint Irenaeus , who wrote unto him to this effect , telling him that all these Easterne Churches , dissenting concerning Fasting , yet did agree in one Faith . Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23.

From the yeare 200 , to the yeare 300. The third Age.

Eusebius , lib. 7. cap. 26 , 27. Anno 265. 1. 2. Concilium Antiochenum . against Paulus Samosatenus , who taught that Christ was an ordinary man as we are . At which Councell were present great lights of the Church , Firmilianus Bishop of Caesarea in Cappad . Theo : Bishop of Caesarea in Palestina , the Bishop of Hierusalem , &c.

Eusebius , lib. 7. cap. 28. anno 270. ( or 272. ut Baronio placet ) in which great Synod of very many Bishops , 2. 3. Concilium Antiochenum . the said Paulus Samosatenus was condemned and excommunicated , saith Eusebius .

1 Concilium Africanum . Under Saint Cyprian , an. 258. inquit Baronius , n. 6. against the restoring of Martialis and Basilides , after their fall to Gentilisme , returning againe to Christianitie , and desiring to be restored to their severall Sees of Leon & Asturia in Spaine . See S. Cyprian , Ep. 68. & Ep. 70. & 72. And concerning rebaptizing of those that had sacrificed to Idols , saith Balsamon in his Preface before this Councell . Which in persecution denied ( Christ ) saith Nicephorus , An. 258. n. 31 , 32 , 33. lib. 6. cap. 2. But therein hee lies extremely , saith Baronius ; for hee would only baptize those who were formerly baptized by Haereticks , an. 258. n. 18. but herein they used such Christian modesty , as that they did not herein prescribe Lawes to others concerning this , not to be de Fide , a matter of Faith , for which they that did doe otherwise should be termed Haereticks . Thus far , and much more Baronius . And Saint Ierome against the Luciferians , to the same purpose speaking of Saint Cyprian : Let them know that hee did not publish this with any Anathema against those who did not follow him , for hee held communion with them who did gainsay his opinion .

The fourth Age. From the yeare 300 , to the yeare 400.

Concilium Ancyranum . About the yeare 308 , saith Caranza , or 314 , saith Baronius . This was a Provinciall Councell , but confirmed by the sixth Generall Councell , saith Balsamon and Caranza ; at which were present , many Fathers who did good service in the Councell of Nice , saith Baron . ibid.

1. Vniversale Concil. Concilium Nicenum . This was the first , and most famous Generall Councell after the Apostles time , celebrated in the yeare 325 , or 326 , called by that famous Emperor Constantine the Great . Baron . Caranza , Surius , Bellarm. Binius . These professed the Apostles Creed .

2. Vniversale Conc. Constantinop. 1. This was the second Generall Councell , called about the yeare 381. as Baronius ; 383 , as others : this did confirme the Nicene Faith , and a little in exposition enlarge it , to that which wee commonly call the Nicene Creed , one word only excepted . Surius , Tom. 1. Balsamon , Caranza .

From the yeare 400. to the yeare 500. The fift Age.

This was the third Generall Councell about the yeare 430. 3. Vnivers . Concil. Consil . Ephesinum . 4. Vnivers . Concil. Chalcedon . saith Onuphrius , 431. saith Baronius n. 41. 434 sait Bellarmine Surius Tom. 1. Balsamon .

This was the fourth Generall Councell , about the yeere 451. saith Baronius , and Onuphrius , 454. saith Bellarm. See Isidore fol. 83. Balsamon , Binius , Surius .

Carthaginense , for it hath the former Title in Surius , Concil. Africanum 2. Vel Carthag . Tom. 1. and the latter in Balsamon , in whom it is the second , though Baronius make it the fifth Councell of Carthage , ann. 419. n. 59.

All these three Councells did approve the precedent Generall Councells , as appeareth by the Acts of the Councells in Isidore , Balsamon , Surius and others .

And in this of Africke were forbidden Appeales to Rome , though the Popes Legates were there , and did labour to the contrary , having a Commonitorie , or direction from Pope Zozimus , so to doe , citing therein a Canon out of the Councell of Nice to that purpose , Balsamon , pag. 592 , 593 , To this Alypius an African Bishop first answered , to which the whole Synode did assent , That they would reverently observe what what the Councell of Nice had decreed , but in those Copies of the Nicene Councell which they had there in Carthage , they found no such Decree ; they decreed therefore to send Embassadors to the Patriarches of Constantinople , Alexandria , and Antioch for Copies under their hands , of the Nicene Councell .

Two Copies were obtained , and the Popes for ever since were detected of falsehood , and signified by the Councell , Balsamon , pag. 567.

From the yeare 500 , to the 600. The sixth Age. 5. Vnivers . Concilium Concilium Constant .

About the yeere 550. This also approved of the foure precedent Generall Councells . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . It confirmed the Doctrines of the fourth Generall Councell saith Balsamon , pag. 354. and Surius Tom. 4. in Concilio Florentino , Sess . 3. & 5. apud Baron . an. 553. n. 39.

Concilium Toletanum . About the yeere 589. against the Heresie of Arrius , which Councell made a most sincere profession of their faith , sayes Baronius , an. 589. n. 10. wherein also they approved the foure first Generall Councels . Idem Baronius , n. 30.

And whereas it was also enacted that after the manner of the East , this profession of the faith , should be made alwayes before the receiving of the Communion . Idem . n. 39. In the beginning of this Councell of all Spaine , the King Ricaredus made confession of his faith , confirmed the foure Generall Councels , repeated the Nicene Creed , and the Constantinoplitane Creed , and after subscribed to them , both he , and his Queene , Surius Tom. 2 pag. 670. for which the whole Councell of the 72. Bishops did glorifie God , ibid which faith the Councell doth professe , pag. 671. and promise to preach , and teach .

This is ( say they ) the true faith by profession of which the Church through the whole world is reputed and proved to be Catholicke , he that liketh not this faith , let him be accursed . He that shall despise the faith of the Councell of Nice , of Constantinople , of Ephesus , of Chalcedon , let him be accursed , Then they repeat and record these Creeds , Surius pag. 672.

From the yeere 600. to the yeere 700.

The seventh Age. 6. Vnivers . Concilium Concilium Trullanum Surius Tom. 2. pag. 899. About the yeare 680 , saith Baronius , n. 41. their first Canon did decree that the Apostles Creed should be kept unchangeably without any innovation . Balsamon p. 360. They confirme the foure precedent Generall Councels , as also the fifth , and sixth , whereof this was a branch adding Canons to the fifth and sixth , and therfore called Quinisexta , stiled an aecumenicall Councell also by Baronius , & Balsamon .

Concilium Romanum . Of 125 Bishops under Pope Agatho , who sent their Legats with a profession of their faith to the sixth Councell approving all the precedent Generall Councells . This is recorded in the fourth Act of the sixth Councell . See Surius Tom. 2. pag 922.

Concilium Mantuanum . Which in all things consenting to the fifth Generall Councell were Catholickes , sayes Baronius , anno 605. numb . 5.

This sixth Generall Synod is called erroneous by Beda , saith Bellarmine , deservedly . The reason , I take it , was because this Councell did condemne Honorius the Pope of Rome for Haeresie , as appeareth by Surius , Actione 12 , 13. and was found to be contained in his Epistles , the Councell using all diligence in examining the Records of the Church of Constantinople , to see if the originall Epistle sent from Pope Honorius to Sergius of Constantinople , did accord with the extracts which were produced , & constitit , it appeared to be so , ait . 12. apud Surium , pag. 990. Bellarm. lib 4. de Pontifice Romano , cap. 11. and Baron . an. 681. doth labour much to excuse this , but with as little successe , as Baronius would cleare Zosimus for forging the Councell of Nice . The Councell was deceived , saith Beda and Bellarmine . The Tract of the Councell was forged , saith Baronius , n. 25. Peradventure those Epistles were forged , saith Bellarmine , loco citato .

From the yeare 700 , to the yeare 800. The eighth Age.

Under Charles the Great , Concilium Francosurtense . for the Historicall and Civill use of Images , but against all religious worshipping of them . Baron . an. 794. Here began the Greeke and Latine Church to be divided about Images . The Emperors and Councels of the East being sometimes for them , sometimes against them . And in the West , the Churches of France , Spaine , and Germanie under Charles the Great , forbidding them to be worshipped ; the Pope and his adherents of Rome commanding to worship them . Yet all these three Councels did receive and professe the Faith of the six precedent Generall Councels . Balsamon , pag. 494. cau . 1. Coucil . Niceni , & Baronius , an . 754. n. 30 , & Surius , Tom. 3. pag. 182.

Hence arose the division of the Empire , Baron . an. 726. n. 38. Pope Gregorie the second forbidding the Italians to pay the Emperor Leo Isaurus tribute for this onely cause . For hee doth commend in the Emperor an every way right religious , and irreprovable profession of the Orthodox Faith , in his Epistle to the Emperor , an. 726. Baron . n. 26.

Wherein Cutbert Archbishop of Canterbury , Concilium Saxonum in Anglia . an. 747. with other Bishops of the Saxons , amongst other things , decreed , that the Presbyters should in the English tongue learne , and teach the Lords Prayer , and the Creed , and that Prayers should be made for Kings and Princes . Malmsburiensis de Gestis Pontificum Anglorum . cap. 1.

The ninth Age. Concilium Aquisgranense . From the yeare 800 , to the yeare 900.

Anno 809. n. 52. It received the six Generall Councels , and did professe the Nicene Creed , Baron . loco citato .

Concilium Foroniliense . This did professe the Nicene Creed , and decreed thus ; Let every Christian commit to memorie the Creed , and the Lords Prayer , all age , all sex , &c. for without this none can , and with this , so they abstaine from sinne , all may be saved , Surius , Tom. 3. pag. 262 , 263.

Concilium Constantinopolitanum . Anno 861. saith Baronius , stiled a Generall Councell by Michaell the Greeke Emperor , who summoned it , and was present at it , consisting of 318 Bishops , approving the Nicen Councell , as appeareth Canon 8. and the 6th Generall Councell , Canon 12. apud Balsamon .

Concilium Parisiense . Anno 825. which condemned the second Nicene , and an Epistle of Pope Adrian for worshipping of Images as superstitious , holding it lawfull to set up Images , but not to worship them , Baron . an. 825. n. 4 , 5. & an 794. n. 43 , 51.

So here are two Councels approved by the Romans , the first and second : two by them rejected , but received , the one by the Greeke Church , the other by the French Church , but all foure professing our Faith ; and two of them denying an Article of the Roman new Creed , videlicet , worshipping of Images .

Tom. 3. pag. 530. Histories ( saith Surius ) speake of a three-fold eighth Generall Councell held at Constantinople : the first , that wherein Photius was made Patriarch . The second , that which restored Ignatius . The third , that which after the death of Ignatius restored Photius againe .

It is worth the note , how Surius can deny , that this Councell of Paris under Lewis , and that of Francford under Charles , did decree against the second Nicene Councell for advancing Image-worship , and charge us with forgerie , seeing all the Chronicles , and learned men of that Age recorded it . See Baronius , an. 794. n. 40.

From the yeare 900 , to the yeare 1000. The tenth Age.

This is that Age which was commonly stiled a leaden , iron , obscure Age , because it was as barren of good , as iron ; loaden with a burthen of wickednesse , as heavie as lead , and obscure for want of Writers , saith Baronius , an. 900. n. 1. An unhappy Age ( saith Bellarmine in his Chronologie ) in which were no Councels , no Writers of note , and the Bishops were such as tooke little care for the Church .

Surius in this Age recordeth no Councell Generall , or Provinciall ; for after Triburense Concilium , which was celebrated under Arnulphus the Emperor ( who died about the yeare 899. as Baronius accounteth ; some yeares sooner , as Bellarmine : ) Surius hath no Councell till we come to Alexander the third Pope of that name , who began his Popedome Anno 1160. that is for two whole Ages and a halfe . But Baronius will furnish us with some .

All three Councels held under Pope Iohn the ninth , Concil. Romanum . 1. Concil. Romanum . 2. Concil. Romanum . 3. Con ilium Suessionen . an. 909. n. 1. Baron . Concil. Constantinop . who in those three yeares of his Papacie held three Councels , Ex quibus summam sibi laudem comparavit ; by which hee got to himselfe great praise , saith Baron . an. 905. n. 1. no doubt these were orthodox Councels in the estimation of Baronius , or else the Pope could not get such praise by them .

Anno 944. reproved by the Romans for deposing of Triphon , not noted of any error in Doctrine . Baron . an. 944. numb . 1 , 2.

Anno 963. called by Otho the second , wherein Iohn the twelfth was convicted of Murther , Perjury , Sacrilege , Concilium Romanum . and Incest with two of his owne Sisters ; which Councell Baronius , n. 31. doth confesse to have beene an assembly of orthodox men , but is much offended with them for deposing the Pope , calling it Indignum facinus , audax , & insolens . Bellarmine also saith , this Emperour was a godly man , and this Pope was one of the worst : but hee blameth them for deposing the Pope , lib. 2. de Pontifice Romano ; cap. 29.

The eleventh Age. Concil. in Legione Hispaniae . Concil. Aurelianense . From the yeare 1000 , to the yeare 1100.

Anno 1012. Baronius , n. 16. who doth there alleadge many Decrees of that Councell .

Anno 1017. Against the Manichees ; in which Councell there was an inquirie made of the Clergie , what opinions every one did hold ? and whether those things which the Catholicke Faith received from the Apostles , they doe unchangeably keepe , and preach ? Baron . n. 2 , 3.

Concil. Basiliense . Anno 1061. which Baronius reproves for condemning Pope Nicholas , and disanulling all his Decrees . n. 4.

Concilium Woormatiense Concil. apud Buxiam . Anno 1076 which Baronius also rejecteth for pronouncing sentence against Gregorie the seventh . n. 12 , 14.

Anno 1080. which is also rejected by Baronius , n. 18 , 19. for deposing Gregorie the seventh , guilty of many crimes , and an enemie to all godlinesse . Quicquid quietè inter piè viventes stare videbatur concussit .

Concil. Londinense . Anno 1075. Malmsburiensis , fol. 117.

The 12 Age. Concilium Romanum . From the yeare 1100 , to the yeare 1200.

Anno 1102. Baronius , n. 1 , 2. wherein , besides the confirming of the ancient Decrees of the Fathers , after the accustomed manner they also , &c.

Concil. Lateranense 2. Anno 1116. under Pascalis the second , Baronius , n. 1. calleth it a Generall Councell , and numb . 5. an Universall Councell .

Concil. Lateranense 3. Anno 1179. under Alexander the third , this is stiled a Generall Synod by Baron . n. 1. and by Bellarmine in his Chronologie .

Concil. Londinense . Anno 1102. under Anselme , Archbishop of Canterbury , Malmsburiensis fol 129.

In this Age , I desire the Reader to observe with mee , how well the Popish Doctors , and Historians doe agree in this so great a matter .

Caranza can find never a Generall Councell in this Age ; Surius can find one , namely , Lateranense tertium , sub Innocentio 3. Bellarmine can find three Generall Councels , Latera . 1 , 2 , 3. Baronius can find six , 1. Romanum , anno 1102. 2. Lateranense , anno 1116. 3. Rhemense , anno 1119. 4. Lateranense , an. 1122. 5. Romanum , an. 1139. 6. Romanum , an. 1179.

From the yeare 1200 , to the yeare 1300. The 13 Age.

Anno 1215. This is received amongst the Romanists for a Generall Councell , and no one Councell is more alleadged for Poperie , saving that of Trent , then this : yet in their profession of Faith , cap. 2. I find nothing dissenting from ours , but onely this , that they have added Transubstantiation . But no one of the other twelve Articles of our new Romish Creed . That there was such a Councell , I grant , but that those decrees , or chapters recorded by Surius were there enacted , I denie : for these authorities following , Matthew Paris , a Monke of Saint Albans , who lived in those times , saith , that 60 , ( 70 it should have beene , saith Mr. Widrington , Discuss dissentionis Decreti . pag. 4. a Priest of your owne ) Chapters were read in full Councell , which some liked , others thought but — And the same Author in his lesser Historie , saith thus : This Generall Councell , which after the Papall manner at the first made a great shew , turned to laughter and scorne . The Archbishops , Bishops , Abbots , Deanes , Archdeacons , and all that came to the Councell being deluded ; for they seeing nothing done , craved leave to depart ; and paying a great summe of money , obtained it . Many things were consulted of ( saith Nauclerus ) but nothing could be decreed openly . Nothing commendable , or worthy of memory was there done ( saith Godfrey a Monke of those times ) save that the East Church submitted to the West , which was never heard of afore . Nothing could be decreed , saith Platina ▪ in the life of Innocentius .

This Councell was not published for 300 yeares after , not by Merlyn , who published later Councels ( as that of Constance , and that of B●sil ) at Collen , anno 1530. and now it comes not out of the Vatican , but from one Iohn Cochleus a German . Thus Widrington . Concil Generale Lugdun . 1. Concil. Generale Lugdun . 2.

Anno 1244. under Innocent the third , Bellar. de Conciliis . & in Chron.

Sub Gregorio 10. anno 1274. Bellarm. and Baronius . The profession of Faith sent from the Pope to Michael the Emperour , wee receive , but not other Doctrines there added . vide Baronium . anno 1274 , & 1275 , & 1276.

The 14 Age. Concil. Viene●se . From the yeare 1300 , to the yeare 1400.

Anno 1311. This is reputed a Generall Councell by Bellarmine , Baronius , Caranza , Platina , Onuphrius .

The profession of Faith made by them , as is recorded by Baronius , n 12. we receive , although we receive not all their other Doctrines and Constitutions . As that they condemne them for Haereticks , who shall denie the reasonable soule to be the forme of mans body per se , & essentialiter , properly , and essentially . This may be an error in Philosophie , but no Haeresie , because it is not in point of Faith .

Concil. Bonon . Concil. Hispanicum . Concil. Provincialia . This was a Provinciall Councell , an. 1309. Baron . n. 12.

In ditione Walliselentum , stiled a most noble Councell by Baronius , anno 1321. n. 9.

Provinciall Councels , and Synods in severall Diocesses were held almost every where by holy men , saith Baronius , anno 1309.

The 15 Age. Concil. Constantiense , an. 1413. From the yeare 1400 , to the yeare 1500.

This is reputed a Generall Councell by the Romanists , Bellarmine , Baronius , Caranza , Surius , Tom. 3. p. 769.

This Councell did professe our Faith , viz the Apostles Creed in Masse before every Session ; although in some other things wee refuse them , as in their halfe Communion , never decreed before in any Councell , and there acknowledged to differ from the institution of Christ , and practise of the Primitive Church . Let the Papists give us leave to repudiate this in part as they doe , viz. in their first Decree , Sess 4. That the Councell is above the Pope . So Bellarmine , lib. de Conciliis cap : 6. reckons this amongst the Generall Councels , partly rejected , and partly approved .

Concil. Besiliense . Anno 1431. This also is partly confirmed , partly rejected by the Romanists ; for this did depose Popes , and decreed that a Generall Councell is above the Pope , as appeareth in Surius , Caranza , and Bellarmine .

Concil. Florentinum . Anno 1439. This is a Generall Councell , approved by the Papists , Bellarmine , lib. de Conciliis . cap. 5. This Councell did professe our Faith , and receive our Councels and Sacraments , though they added five Sacraments more ; reade Surius , Tom. 4. Sessione 3 , 4 , 5.

Thus have I travelled through Histories , Fathers , Schoolmen , and Councels , to satisfie the demand of them , who when all is done , will denie all Histories , Fathers and Councels which make against them . I might have gone a neerer way , thus :

You baptize Children daily in your Church , and then you professe my Faith , the Apostles Creed , and minister our first Sacrament . You have your Masse or Common Prayer , with the Communion often in your Churches , then also you professe my Faith ; reade parcels of our Scriptures , and minister our other Sacrament intire to the Clergie , though by halfes to the Laitie . You have published many Missals under the names of Saint Iames , Saint Marke , Saint Chrysostom , and others , every one of these allow and use my Faith , Scriptures and Sacraments . You have your Ordo Romanus , that approveth my Faith , Scriptures and Sacraments . You have published many writers upon the Masse in your auctionary of Bibliotheca Patrum ; as Walafridus Strabo , Ino Corvotensis , and others named by mee in my Catalogue : all these professed our Faith , and received our Sacraments , and also our Scriptures . But as for your Creed , it was never professed in Baptisme ; it is found in none of those Missals , nor in your Ordo Romanus , nor in any of those Expositors of your Roman Masse for one thousand five hundred yeares . Let mee conclude with the words of Vincentius Lirinensis ; The holy Church a diligent , and wary keeper of those Doctrines which were committed unto her , doth not change , adde , or diminish any thing therein ; it doth not cut off any thing that is necessary , nor adde any thing that is superfluous ; it doth not lose that which is proper to Christianitie , nor usurpe that which belongeth to other Sects of Religion in the world .

CHAP. XIX .

Fisher .

1. THat faith is affirmation , and not negation ; by which rule it seemeth he would not have any negative propositions , although found in Scriptures to pertaine to faith . 2. That they that are in the affirmative , must prove , and not those who are in the negative ; but which seemeth to follow , that a man who had time out of minde quietly possessed his land , or Religion , were bound to prove his right , before his upstart Adversary who denyeth him to have right , have given a good reason of his denyall . 3. That what was not a point of faith in the Primitive Ages , cannot after be a point of faith ; as if there were not some points which were at first not held necessary to be beleeved even by Orthodox fathers , which afterward by examination , and definition of the Church in Generall Councels , were made so necessary to be beleeved , as that whosoever did not beleeve them were accounted not Orthodox , but Hereticks . And 4 , that the Anabaptist faith is that which is contained in Scripture and ancient Creeds : And the Anabaptist Church is a societie of men which professeth the faith contained in Scripture , and the ancient Creeds , as ( if an Anabaptist may be Iudge ) it will be held so to be .

Rogers .

Master Fisher hath in many pages written this Title , Master Rogers his weake grounds , where he spake not one word of my grounds , and here he doth passe over the most with silence , but he speaketh against some few of them . In my former answer , after my definition of a Protestant , I laid some few distinctions , or grounds thus , I desire you to distinguish between matter 1. Of discipline and 2. Of Doctrine .

Secondly , to distinguish between 1. Doctrine accessory . and 2. Doctr. fundamentall .

Matter of faith consisteth not in discipline , but Doctrine , and that Doctrine not accessory but fundamentall .

By this distinction I meane the same which Aquinas doth by res fidei 1. Per se 2. Per accidens .

These 3 distinctions passe without exception saving that he maketh mention of the second , viz 1. Doctrine accessorie . 2. Doctrine fundamentall .

As if he would overthrow it , but indeed saith nothing in the world against it , nor can ; for it is the distinction of Saint Augustine , of Bellarmine , of all the Schoole , Lib. 4. de verb. Dei . c. 12. In Scripturis plurima sunt quae ex se non pertinent ad fidem . being the same with that of Aquinas in matters of faith into res fidei 1. Per se . in themselves . 2. Per accidens . or , accidentally .

The words of Aquinas , are these , and thus cited by Valenza , Tom. 3. d. 1. q. 1. p. 2. § 1. as an undoubted ground , or principle .

Habitus fidei . 1. Per se , & primariò respicit ea circa quae distinguuntur articuli fidei . 2. Alias verò propositiones quae divinis Scripturis continenter respicit secundariò , & per accidens .

The habit of faith . 1. In it self , and principally looketh upon those things which are contained in the Articles of our Creed . 2. Vpon other propositions which are contained in Scripture , it looketh accidentally , and secondarily .

This is the Doctrine of the Reformed Church , Non enim unius sunt formae omnia verae doctrinae capita , All heads of true Doctrine are not of one nature ; Some are necessary to be knowne , which all men ought to receive as undoubted : there are others , Quae inter Ecclesias controversa , fidei tamen unitaetem non dirimant . Wherein particular Churches may dissent and yet not breake the unity of faith . Thus Calvin Instit. l. 4. c. 1. n. 22. I could cite Luther , and others , but I will onely cite Saint Augustine , who in his first booke against Iulius Pelagius , writeth thus , Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque optimi Regulae Catholicae defensores salva fidei compage non consonant , etalius alio de una re meliùs aliquid dicit & verius . Hoc autem vnde nunc agimus ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta .

There are other things wherein the most learned , and best defenders of the Catholicke Rule may dissent one from another , and one man speaketh better and more truely then another , upon the same subject . But this whereof we now speake belongeth to the very foundation of faith . Thus farre Saint Augustine .

This is the first of my grounds that he finds fault with , but not in that order as I placed them , but after two , or three other grounds of mine , which in mine answer , were placed after this . Thus he to puzzle the Reader , that he may not so easily perceive what he doth answer , what he doth not answer , never observes order . Yet I , that he may in nothing escape my hands , will follow him in his order , so that I must answer what he objecteth against this ground in the next Chapter .

My next ground was this .

I distinguish between 1. Affirmation In those Articles of our English Church . and 2. Negation . In those Articles of our English Church .

Our Negation is partly a traversing , partly a condemning of your novelties , and additions , and therefore no part of our faith : for no man will deny his owne faith . To this my Adversary doth thus reply .

Fisher .

That faith is affirmation , and not negation ; by which Rule it seemeth he would not have any negative propositions , although found in Scripture , to pertaine to faith .

Rogers .

You inferre that in your conclusion , which is not in my grounds ; I say that faith is affirmation , I doe not say that all that doth pertaine to Faith , is affirmation ; I say that negations are no part of my faith : you say that negations doe pertaine to faith . Non facis elenchum , you inferre not my proposition in your conclusion with a contradiction ; what you say , is not contrary to my grounds , for that may pertaine to faith , which is not faith ; and that may pertaine to faith , which is no part of faith ; as that may pertaine to Master Fisher , which is not Master Fisher , nor any part of Master Fisher . The button of Master Fishers doublet , doth pertaine to Master Fisher , yet I may not say Master Fisher is a button , or that this button is any part of Master Fisher . A joyned stoole may pertaine to Master Fisher , but I will not say Master Fisher is a joyn'd stoole . The distinction of matters of faith out of Aquinas , and others of that which belongs unto faith properly , from that which belongs unto faith accidentally , doth exclude those things which onely pertaine unto faith , from being faith , or any part of faith ; You know Master Fisher , Aristot . Zabarella . that Propositiones per se habent essentialem connexionem : Man is that which he is of himselfe properly , and essentially , a creature , consisting of a humane body , and a reasonable soule ; not that which is accidentall unto man , as to be blacke or white , to be a Musician , to be a Carpenter , to be a Fryer , or a Priest , a Jesuite , or a Dominican ; These things are not man , nor any part of man . It doth not therefore follow , that because negations pertaine to faith , therefore they are faith , or part of faith . Your Argument from Scripture , if I should grant your medium , cannot inferre against my ground , altering part of faith , into that which pertaineth to faith . Your Argument in forme will discover it selfe to be a fallacie .

All propositions found in Scripture pertaine to faith . Some negative propositions are found in Scripture .

Ergo , ( If you inferre against me , your conclusion must be thus ) Negative propositions are faith , or parts of faith .

This is no Syllogisme , here are foure termes ; there is that in the conclusion , which is not in the premisses : but if you would have all propositions that are in Scripture to be matters of faith , or parts , or points of faith , then I deny your major ; you know there are many propositions in Scripture delivered by wicked men , yea , some by the Devill himselfe , As that which was spoken unto Eve , you shall not die . Whereas God told them they should die , if they did eate of the forbidden fruit . And shall these be parts of your faith ? will you beleeve the Devill when he speaketh against God ? But of this I have spoken more fully before , Cap. 4. proving the contrary to this out of your own men ; Yet I will here adde some few reasons , to shew that Negations , or negative Propositions cannot be Articles of faith , or Principles of faith .

Lib. 1. Poster . c. 23. Aristotle doth prove by two Arguments , that an affirmative proposition is better then a negative .

First , because the affirmative is better knowne then the negative , for the negative cannot be knowne without the affirmative , but the affirmative may without the negative ; as the habit may be defined without privation , but not privation without the habit ; as seeing may be defined without any mention of blindnesse , but blindnesse cannot be defined without mention of seeing .

Secondly , Affirmation doth speake of being , Negation of not being ; but being is better then not being . To the same effect in his bookes , Lib. 2. c. 3. De Coelo : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Affirmation is before privation . He is the same man in his Metaphisicks , where he putteth Negations , inter entia rationis , which have no being in themselves : if no being , how can they be principles in any Scicence , much lesse in Divinitie ? It is a true note of your Zuarez upon the Metaphisicks , that Mensura debet & nota esse , & certa : ut sit nota oportet , ut entitatem habeat ; ut fit certa oportet , ut in indivisibili consistat . That cannot be knowne which hath not entitie , reall entitie , saith your Suarez , when any Negation is knowne , of necessitie , we must first know that whereof it is a Negation . Prima primae q. 72. 63 & secunda secundae . q. 79. 3. Andreas Vega . Francisc . Hist. Trid. Con p. 1. 179 In Metaph. ●5 . c. 7. q. 6. Idem Suarez

This is the Doctrine of your great Schooleman Aquinas : He was one of your greatest Divines , who said at your Councell of Trent , that no true Negative hath in it selfe , the cause of his truth , but is so by the trutth of an affirmative . Negations as negations , nullam omninò dicunt entitatem , sed solam absentiam ejus quod negatur ; they tell of no being , but onely an absence of that which is denyed , saith your Fonseca .

Seeing then that Propositions of faith , are principles , and principles cannot be proved , by any thing that is before them , or better knowne then they ; and that nothing can be known without reall being , and that negations are proved by affirmations ; how can they be Propositions , or principles of faith ? And lest you should wander in your Replie , I will presse two Arguments out of your owne men .

Entia rationis non sunt principia in ulla scientia , Suarez in his Metaphys . in fine . Negationes sunt entia rationis .

Ergo , Negationes non sunt principia in ulla scientia , praesertim in Theologia .

Principia fidei habent causam finalem .

Negationes non habent causam finalem .

Ergo , Negationes non sunt principia fidei .

Propositions of faith are foundations , and a foundation must be positive , or it will beare nothing upon it : go round about a building , and say a thousand times over , here is no stone , and here is no stone , and so all along , you will never lay a foundation ; Shall the Mason by saying , I will not lay this , nor that foundation , come and claime his wages ? Shall the Tyler by laying on no Tyle , say that he hath covered the house ? or the Carpenter , by squaring and joyning no Timber , build the Walls ?

The Articles of our faith are in the Apostles Creed , all affirmative and positive , there is not one Negation among them .

The question betweene us is about unwritten Traditions , Purgatory , Invocation of Saints , Transubstantiation , worshipping of Images , and the rest before alleadged out of Paulus Secundus his Creed ; all which I deny , and therefore are no Articles of my faith , for no man would deny his owne faith . All those we deny , we lay no such foundation , let them which have laid it , maintaine it . We are contented that Purgatory , Transubstantiation , worshipping of Images , Indulgences , &c. be buried in oblivion , and never mentioned amongst us , which we would not doe , if they were Articles of our faith , for all men ought to be ready to confesse , and professe their faith . It was truely written by one of your owne , Doctor Iames Gordon Hanley of Scotland , a Iesuite , In Lib. de Traditionibus cap. 6. that the whole Controversie betweene you , and us , is of the unwritten points of faith , which you affirme , and we deny : as for example , you affirme and beleeve Purgatorie , I doe not beleeve it ; will you say now that Purgatory is a part of my faith ? can that be a part of a mans faith , which he doth not beleeve ? If I doe not beleeve it , it is not my faith , if it be my faith , I doe beleeve it so . You beleeve Transubstantiation , I doe not beleeve it , can this be a point of my faith ? Your Schoole saith truely , that to beleeve is the proper , internall , inseparable act of faith , they goe together , they stand , or fall together : So that I wonder with what face , with what braine , you can say , or thinke , that those negations are points of my faith , and I say they are not ? Yet lest you should not take my word , I will adde one reason more . I say with the learned of both sides , that faith is habitus principiorum , is that assent we give unto revealed principles . And that Negations cannot be principles , I prove thus .

Arist. annal. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . cap. 8. &c. 21. Principles depend upon no precedent proofe .

Negations depend upon precedent proofe .

Ergo , Negations are not Principles .

Both propositions are Aristotles . Now let us see what he next misliketh in my grounds .

CHAP. XX.

Fisher .

MAster Rogers framed to himselfe false Rules . First , that faith is Affirmation , not Negation . Secondly , That they which are in the Affirmative must prove , and not those who are in the Negative .

Rogers .

In my former answer , I said thus , In points of faith I like Master Fishers Rule , That they that are in the Affirmative must prove . It was Master Fishers Rule proposed by him , admitted by me : for these were his words in his first Paper , Master Fisher undertooke to defend the negative part , so it did belong to his Adversary to prove the affirmative . Why now doe you say that Master Rogers doth frame false Rules to himselfe ? This is Master Fishers Rule , framed by him , approved by me . It was a Rule that your Doctor Cole , and others stood upon in the Disputation at Westminster , In Historia Concil. T●id . Per naturam , factum negantis probatio nulla . 6. q 5. cap. 2. Negationum non sunt causae . gl . ibidem . as Bishop Iuel often layes to his charge . Let us adde one more of your men , the forenamed Andreas Vega ; No Proposition was ever false , but because another is true : neither can the falsitie of the one be knowne , but by him who knoweth the truth of the other . Therefore the opinion of the Lutherans cannot be condemned of Haeresie , untill the opinion of the Church be set downe ; loco supra citato . Let us see what good reason Master Fisher bringeth to overthrow this Rule .

Fisher .

By this it seemeth to follow , that a man who time out of mind , quietly possessed his Land or Religion , were bound to prove his right before his upstart Adversarie ( who denieth him to have right ) hath given a good reason of his deniall .

Rogers .

Even as the Wheele-barrow goes to rumble , to rumble , so Doctor Eld. W. owes mee two Shillings . His similitude and yours held much alike , Master Fisher . And yet , if your similitude were good , Symbola non sunt argumentativa : Similitudes are no proofes , they illustrate and cleare obscurities , if they be good and apposite ; otherwise , they doe more hinder the understanding , then helpe it . Who doth strive with you about the possession of any thing that is controverted betweene us , to take it from you ? Would wee take from you to our selves ? Or doe we challenge any right , title or portion in your unwritten Traditions ? your invocation of Saints , Purgatorie , Indulgences , and the rest of your new Creed ? No such matter : we disclaime from them ; we leave them to you : wee say they are yours , yours in possession , yours in proprietie of title , take them , hold them , hugge them in your armes , and thinke as well of them as the old Ape did of her yong one , when she presented him before the Lion , as the goodliest , prettiest , fairest yongling amongst all the beasts of the field . Wee in the meane time smile at your folly , and laugh at such bables ; take them unto you , father your owne children , they looke as like you as the yong Ape did the old . Now let us see what is next ?

Fisher .

The third false Rule framed by Master Rogers is , that what was not a point of Faith in the Primitive Ages , cannot after be a point of Faith .

Rogers .

This Rule was not framed by mee , but it was the Rule of Vincentius Lirinensis , and so alleaged by mee in my Answer , confirmed also by their great Schoolman Aquinas , and something then cited out of both , thus :

Religion , or points of Faith are without addition , as Lirinensis saith . Imitetur animarum Religio rationem corporum , quae & quot parvulorum membra tot virorum , &c. And as Aquinas saith ;

The Articles of Faith doe grow , quoad 1. Explicationem , non 2. Substantiam .

That which was no point of Faith for the first 1200 yeares , could be none afterwards ; ut supra Vinc. Lirin . & Aquin.

But Transubstantiation was no point of Faith before the yeare 1200. Scotus .

Ergo , Transubstantiation is no point of Faith .

To all this , contained in my former Answer , is no Reply made : the Authoritie and saying of Lirinensis , Aquinas , Scotus , together with my Argument , are past over with silence , but supplied with two or three falshoods ; 1 , by saying that I framed that Rule which was framed 1200 yeares at least before I was borne . 2 , By calling that a false Rule , which was received without controll , no learned man having the face to denie it , till the lame Laiola furnished the world with audacious Jesuits : for never was there a new Creed made before the Councell of Trent . But let us see what reason hee hath to denie this Rule ? His words are these :

Fisher .

As if there were not some points which were at first , not held necessarie to be believed by orthodox Fathers , which afterward by examination and definition of the Church in Generall Councels , were made so necessarie to be believed , as that whosoever did not believe , were accounted not Orthodox , but Haereticks .

Rogers .

A Boy that wanted a couple of Verses to make up his full number , desired one of his fellowes to helpe at a pinch , no matter whether it were to the Theme , no matter whether they were good or no , so they fill'd up the Paper , made up the number : I care not ( saith he ) though they be all botches , for I hope they will never be read . One of his fellowes , to helpe him at his need , made this Verse :

Semper , quotidiè , sic , jam , nunc , atque profectò .

To which another added ,

Aedepol , ecce , quidem , scilicet , indè , procul .

My Adversarie at the first made a short weake Answer to what I had written , such as gave no satisfaction to his owne side : ( for so Master Waterhouse , who brought mee that Answer , told mee . ) Being afterwards called upon to make a more full and more satisfactorie Answer , either by himselfe , or some other of his fellowes , made up this , not so full as he should , for hee passeth by more then halfe my grounds and Arguments with silence . And that which hee hath answered is botched up with impertinencies and fallacies , a great manie of those botches I have shewed before : as , Who doth not see ? I doe not see : Master Rogers may grant : If Master Rogers doe grant : I see no reason why he should not grant , &c. And here to my grounds , by which it seemeth hee would not : To my first ground , by which it seemeth to follow : To my second ground , as if there were not some points , &c. To my third ground , and to the fourth : As ( if an Anabaptist may judge ) it will be held so to be : And to my fifth : Hee may be yet further allowed to reject , &c. Here is neither granting , nor denying , nor distinguishing , nor arguing , but all is Seeming , and , As if it were ; all concurring to make his learning Sophistrie , and himselfe a Sophister , Arist. in Elench . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Sophistrie is seeming wisdome , and a Sophister is hee that seeketh for gaine by seeming wisdome , whereas there is no such matter : and where hee seemeth to argue , it is but the contentious discourse of a Sophister , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ; consisting of nothing but seeming probabilities , as I have shewed in all instances which I have met with yet , and so will in this . My third ground was , That what was no point of Faith in the Primitive Ages , could be none afterwards ; ut suprà Vincentius Lirinensis , & Aquinas . What saith hee to this ? doth hee grant it ? doth he distinguish ? doth he denie it ? No grant , no distinction , no direct deniall , for that hee dares not , least hee should denie that ancient Father , and his great Schoolman : yet hee saith something against it , or rather maketh as if hee would . Hee saith , that some points were defined by Councels , and so made necessary to be believed , which before were not held necessary , even by orthodox Fathers : Ergo , The Church may make new points , or Articles of Faith .

His Argument and his Antecedent be both false ; his Antecedent is ambiguous : for to believe , may signifie an act either of humane Faith , or religious divine Faith . If hee understand believe in the first sense , I grant his Antecedent , viz. That wee are to give great credit unto the Decrees and Definitions of Generall Councels ; but yet inferior to that credit wee give unto the Word of God , because he is Truth it selfe , who cannot erre , and they are man who may erre . And therefore to take this , viz That the Definitions of Councels are Articles of Faith , thence to prove that wee have new Articles of Faith , besides those of the Primitive Church , is Petitio principii , a begging of that for granted , which he knowes wee denie : Artic. 21. it is the Doctrine of our Church , that Generall Councels may erre , and that the Church ought not to inforce any thing to be believed for necessitie of salvation . Whereas you say , Artic. 20. the Decrees of Councels are held necessarie , there is a two-fold necessitie of different degrees : 1. Necessitas medii . 2. Necessitas praecepti . This later may belong to the Decrees of Councels , not the former .

Here you might have remembred my distinction of 1. Doctrines of Faith . 2. Doctrines of the Church ; & 3. Doctrines of the Schoole .

Definitions of Councels are Church Doctrines , not Doctrines of Faith ; and therefore have an inferiour necessitie , without the knowledge whereof a man may be saved : and thousands were saved before those Councels were heard of ; but no man can be saved without the Doctrines of Faith , knowne and professed by himselfe , if hee be in yeares of discretion , or by his Parents and Sureties if hee be a child .

Whereas you say , that those that refuse the Decrees of Councels , are accounted Haereticks ; and take this for granted , that so you might inferre an addition to Articles of Faith , is the like begging of a Medium , as the former : you know wee doe not so define an Haereticke ; Iuel in his view of a seditious Bull. for with us hee is an Haereticke , who denieth the Articles of the Christian Faith : and so hee is defined by the most learned of your side , holding that Haeresie doth directly , and principally dissent from the Articles of Faith . So Aquinas , That Haeresie is opposite to Faith . So Widrington , a Priest of your owne , Praefat. ante respond . Apol. pro jure Princ. But with you and your Pope , all things are Haeresies which you like not ; as Paul the second did pronounce them Haereticks , Platina in vita Pauli ● . who should from that time forward , in earnest or in jest , mention the name of Academic : did I thinke this Decree of your Pope were of force , being an Oxford man , I should be very sory for my selfe and others , who in our oracles doe stile our Auditors by no name more frequently then Academici . If you had ever thought your Answer should have beene read , you would never have written upon the top of your Leaves , Master Rogers his most weake grounds , where there is no mention made of his grounds ; and , Most weake Arguments , where you make no answer at all to my Arguments , and give no instance to those Arguments which cannot be answered without instances , nor passed by many Arguments and grounds without any mention of them ; and those you mention , to passe them over with , It seemeth , to the first ; Seemeth , to the second ; As if , to the third ; As if , to the fourth ; Hee may be yet further allowed , to the fift ; whereof I am next to speake .

Fisher .

And fourthly , that the Anabaptist Faith is that which is contained in Scripture , and the ancient Creeds ; and the Anabaptists Church is a societie of men , which professeth the Faith contained in Scripture , and the ancient Creeds : as ( if an Anabaptist may be judge ) it will be held so to be .

Rogers .

I will grant , that the Anabaptist is a member of the visible Church , Ecclesia verae , quamvis non sanae : and that Church to have beene alwaies in Ages whereof hee is a member ; yea Membrum verum , quamvis non sanum ; a true member , though a diseased , as a goutie foot of a man , that is otherwise in health , and sixtie or seventie yeares old , is a true member , though not a sound member of that body which in all other parts is sound ; and this foot thus gouty , though it became gouty but within a few daies before , may truly say , that that body whereof it is a member , hath beene 10 , 20 , 30 , 40 , 70 yeares the very same body which now it is , the very same essentially , though not accidentally ; still a body , and still the same body , though sometimes more healthy then other , and in some parts more sound then other . Now Master Fisher , to what end is your great discourse of Anabaptists , seeing I grant him to be of the Church ? If hee be such a one as you suppose him , who agreeth with mee in all things else , viz. in the Scripture , in the Creed , in the Sacraments , in the essence of the Sacraments , in their matter and forme , in their force and efficacie ; onely differs from mee in the circumstance of time , namely , when Baptisme is to be conferred , and bestowed upon Children of Christians , whether before , or after they are come to yeares of discretion .

CHAP. XXI .

Fisher .

AND fifthly , That having distinguished Faith ( as Master Rogers doth ) into Doctrines fundamentall , and necessary , and Doctrines not fundamentall , but accessory , or not necessary : hee may be yet further allowed to reject all Church authoritie , and not to be satisfied with what is taught by any Church , ours or his owne , ( as Master Rogers confesseth hee is unsatisfied ) and consequently being left to his owne libertie , may apply this distinction as hee shall please , accounting onely that to be necessary which hee listeth so to account . I wish , I say , that such an Anabaptist were imagined , and that Master Rogers were to be his opponent : That it might be seene whether this Anabaptist could not as well by these aforesaid Rules , Definitions and Distinctions , affirme , prove and defend his Faith and Church to have beene alwaies visible , against Master Rogers ; as Master Rogers doth , or can by his Rules , Definitions and Distinctions , affirme , prove , and defend the Protestant Church to have beene alwaies visible , against Catholicks : or whether Master Rogers could better convince such an Anabaptist not to have the ancient Faith , or not to be a member of the continuall visible Church , then a Catholicke can convince Master Rogers .

Rogers .

Concerning this Distinction , I have spoken afore , that some Doctrines are more necessary then others : now let us see whether this man saith any thing against it , and what it is . I doe not find hee doth denie it , or grant it : so that I know not what hee meanes by the words following , viz. He may be yet further allowed to reject all Church authoritie , and not be satisfied with what is taught by any Church , ours or his owne ( as Master Rogers confesseth he is unsatisfied . ) First , you mightily falsifie this Parenthesis upon mee , my words were these ; I doe confesse , that none of your side or ours have given me full satisfaction in this point : what are res fidei per se ? And in the words next going before , I said thus ; Master Fisher , I desire you also , for the avoiding of confusion , to deliver your opinion : Whether all the Affirmative Doctrines of the Councell of Trent , are matters of Faith per se , fundamentall , and necessarie to be held for salvation fide explicita . I speake de adultis quibus facultas datur discendi , who being come to yeares of discretion , have capacitie to learne .

This much in my first Answer ; to this my request he makes no reply ; either hee is ignorant , or dare not expresse whether all the affirmative doctrines of his Councel of Trent , are matters of Faith , and necessary to be knowne and believed : though I then told him I proposed this question , as desirous to learn . This much concerning my question , and my request . Now to my Assertion , viz. That none of his side or ours , hath given me full satisfaction herein : he hence infers , that I am unsatisfied without any limitation ; or if wee will looke backe beyond the Parenthesis , as if I were unsatisfied in that which is taught in any Church , ours or his . This is the right fallacie , à dicto secundum quid , ad dictum simpliciter : I said I was satisfied by none of theirs or ours , in the instances of one distinction , what Doctrines were to be reduced to either member of the Distinction , namely , what Doctrines were necessary , what not necessary ; what was fundamentall , what accessory ▪ what matter of Faith properly , what accidentally : and hee would traduce mee , as if I were unsatisfied in all other Doctrines ; this is the Devils Logicke , Master Fisher , who is the father of lies , to say I confessed that I never did . As well I might prove that you have never a nose on your face , or that you are blind , thus :

Mr. Fisher hath never a Nose on his brest .

Ergo , Mr. Fisher hath no Nose .

As you say , Master Rogers doth confesse hee is unsatisfied in some things belonging to one distinction .

Ergo , Master Rogers is unsatisfied in any Doctrine .

Or thus :

Mr. Fisher doth confesse that hee doth not see why Master Rogers may not absolutely grant his fourth Proposition .

Ergo , Master Fisher doth confesse he doth not see .

Master Fisher , I am satisfied in the doctrines of my faith , in the doctrines of my Church , in the truth of ours , and the falshood of yours : as that I desire to die rather then receive your faith , or forsake any of mine ; and I doe hold your Roman Church the most corrupted , erroneous , usurping part , or member of the Christian Church , that is in the world .

I distinguished between doctrines of Faith , the Church , and of the Schoole .

These latter being private opinions of men in distinguishing , defining , or arguing , being neither contained in Scriptures , nor delivered by the Church , I might be unsatisfied in , and the rather , because the greatest Writers of your side , and ours , doe vary herein , or speake indefinitely , which is no resolution . Thomas secunda , secundae , quest. 2. saying one thing , Occham , another , and Valenza differing from both , Tom , Lib. 4. c. 11. de verbo Dei . 3 disp. 1. q. Bellarmine speaking indifinitely ; some things in the Doctrine of Christianity , as well belonging to faith as manners , are simply necessary to all men that will be saved ; such is the knowledge of the Apostolicke Creed , of the ten Commandements , and of some Sacraments , non nullorum Sacramentorum , not defining which , and giving small satisfaction , with his individuum vagum , of some Sacraments , not telling which ; so also amongst our Writers , Calvin , Hooker , Doctor Field , Doctor Vsher , doe all thus distinguish , but when they come to expresse what belongeth to either member , they doe not all speake alike . Calvin . Institut. l. 4. cap. 1. n. 12. saith some things are necessary for all men to beleeve , as that there is one God , that Christ is God , and the Sonne of God , that our salvation consisteth in the mercy of God , & similia , and such like ; This word similia leaves it undetermined .

Hooker holdeth these three to be fundamentall , necessary , and essentiall unto the Church , one Lord , one Faith , one Baptisme , but under that of faith , he understandeth as necessary the Articles of the Apostles Creed ; so that he , and Doctor Vsher , differ very little , or nothing at all . Doctor Field is somewhat more full in his third booke of the Church , the fourth Chapter ; yet not in reall addition but in explication , so that they all receive the distinction which you would seeme to reject : as if the admitting of that distinction did infer a libertie to reject all Church authority , and not to be satisfied by what is taught by any Church . How this doth follow , I know not , I thinke it is as farre from due consequence , as to say . I have my poake full of plumbes , therefore that is the way to London . It is my hard hap to meet with an Adversary which hath so little honesty , as to falsifie my words , so little learning , as that he hath not , and it seemes he cannot frame one Argument . I am loath to take the paines to adde forme to such rude matter , to draw the line of reason , and measure with rules of Art , such rotten stuffe , such incohaerent disjoynted speeches , as that himselfe was afeard to insert the note of illation , a a Ergo. therefore , but I will doe it for him .

Master Rogers hath distinguished betweene Doctrines fundamentall , and necessary , and Doctrines not fundamentall , but accessorie .

Ergo , Master Rogers may be further allowed to reject all Church authority , and not be satisfied with any Church Doctrine .

Negatur Argumentum , Master Fisher , for if it be a good Argument , let me urge it thus ;

Aquinas , Occham , Espenseus , The Master of the Sentences , Bonaventure , Durandus , &c. a world of Schoolemen , and other Writers doe make the same distinction .

Ergo , Aquinas , Occham , Espenceus , the Master of the Sentences , with the Schooles in generall , are allowed to reject Church authoritie , and Church Doctrine , if the Argument were true , thus it must follow .

I was so farre from accounting that to be necessary , which I list so to account , as that I desired of you my Adversary to be informed , and directed herein .

Whereas you object , that an Anabaptist might prove his Church to have been alwayes visible by my Rules , definitions , and distinctions , is most untrue : one of the Rules or Medium , by which I did prove my Church , was Antiquitie , Vniversality , and Consent ; will you grant that this Medium doth agree to the Anabaptist in that point , which especially gives him that name , viz. in denying Baptisme to children ? It seemes you have little regard what you say , that you will thus strengthen the Anabaptist in his errour , as if he had Antiquity , Vniversalitie , and Consent , for his excluding children from Baptisme . Or if by his negative , he put me to prove the affirmative , that children are to be baptized , I will prove it by the testimonies of Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent . But I am not now to deale with Anabaptists , but with a Papist .

CHAP. XXII .

Fisher .

FOr proofe whereof , let it be supposed that Master R●gers could ( as he cannot ) produce out of Scriptures , and Fathers , other Writers in all Ages as many , and as plaine , and repugnant affirmative sentences against the negative Doctrine of Anabaptists , as Catholickes ordinarily doe agai●st Protestants negatives : And then I aske Master Rogers , Whether this Anabaptist may not ( as usually Protestants do ) take one , or other exception either of Argument , or Booke , out of which the sentence is cited , as if it were not undoubtedly Canonicall , or Authenticall , or against the Translation , or Transcript , or Printed Copie , as not certainely knowne to be conforme to the first Antographon , or Originall , or against the interpretation , and sense of the words , or the consequence gathered out of them , as if some other sense were intended by the Authour . Or if none of these exceptions can be made , whether he may not at least say , that it is not the faith , or consent of all Antiquitie , which doth hold such an affirmative , contrary to his negative Doctrine , but onely the opinion of some one , or few , whilst others hold the contrary , or seeme doubtfull . Or if it be shewed to be the generall Doctrine of all who had occasion to write of that matter , without any one teaching contrary , whether he may not deny the point to be fundamentall , and say , that they differ not from him in Doctrine necessary , but onely in Doctrine accessory , and that notwithstanding this difference , they may , and are possessors of his faith , and members of his Anabaptist Church .

All this doubtlesse he may say , and so defend ancient Fathers to be of his Faith and Church , as well as Master Rogers can defend them to be of his faith and Church . Neither can Master Rogers disprove what the Anabaptist averreth , but with the same breath he disprooveth his owne Booke , and maketh it appeare to every judicious Reader , that he neither can truely name , soundly prove , nor in any good sort defend either the Ancient Fathers , or any other Orthodox whom he nameth , or any lawfull Pastors , or others , Catholicks , or Hereticks before Luther , or indeed Luther himself , to have held the entire Protestant faith ; for if all Protestant Doctrines , which be different from the faith of the Roman Church , may be called Doctrines of Protestant faith , it may be evidently shewed , that none of the aforesaid did in all points of faith agree with the English Protestant Church , whose Ministers are bound to subscribe to the 39 Articles above mentioned .

Rogers .

All this wilde discourse is to overthrow my Grounds , by shewing that they may agree with an Anabaptist , who , as he supposeth , is not of the visible Church , & taketh it as granted by me , wherin he is deceived . For I hold the Anabaptist , though I condemne his errour in denying Baptisme unto children , to be a member of the visible Church , though diseased as the Papist is , and lesse diseased then he : his Argument which commeth from him as a Beares Whelpe , or worse ( for ever it wanteth some principall limme ) being formed , is this .

Those are no true Gounds , Distinctions , Definitions , or Arguments , an Anabaptist may prove himselfe to be of the Church .

But by Master Rogers Grounds , Distinctions , Definitions , and Arguments , by which an Anabaptist may prove himselfe to be of the Church .

Ergo Master Rogers Grounds , Distinctions , Definitions , and Arguments , are no true Grounds .

I deny his major , which he taketh as granted , committing his old fallacie of Petitio Principii , begging , and supposing that for a medium , and principle which is denied , or at least questioned : and spends himselfe wholly in proving the minor , which I grant , not for any proofe that he brings , but for divers other reasons which I can alleadge , as namely these amongst others .

An erroneous opinion in matters of practise and morall praecepts , doth not exclude out of the visible Church , but errour in matters of faith .

The errour of the Anabaptist is in matters of practise , not in matters of faith .

Ergo , His errour doth not exclude him out of the visible Church .

They do not deny Baptisme , nor any thing that is substantiall in Baptisme , but onely erre in a circumstance of time , denying that unto children not absolutely , and for ever , but untill they come to make profession of their faith .

Shall this exclude them , and their Children out of the Church , and why ? because by this delay , many children dying without Baptisme , as you suppose are damned , but I deny . If the delay of seven or eight yeares for Baptisme , doe exclude them out of the Church , because many thereby are deprived of Baptisme , then a shorter delay of fourty daies , or eighty daies , should exclude men out of the Church , because many children may die at twenty or thirty dayes old , and yet we know many Churches in the world , as the Coftie in Egypt , doe not baptise their children before the fourtieth day , though they should die without Baptisme . Th. a Ies . lib. 7. p. 1. c. 5. So Th. ibid. c. 6. Leo primus . The Maronites whose Patriarch resideth in Syria , Baptize not their male children till fourty dayes , nor their female till eighty dayes after their birth .

He was a Pope of Rome which commanded , that Baptisme should not be ministred at any other time then at Easter , and Whitsontide , and can we thinke but that many children in the meane space did die . Socrates Scholasticus , testifieth , Hist. Eccl. 5. c. 21. l Tom. 4. disp. 4. puncto . 4. that in Thessalie , by reason of deferring of Baptisme untill Easter , it happened that many , yea , the most dyed before Baptisme . Your Gregory de Valenza , doth confesse , that in the Primitive Church many holy , and godly men did deferre their Baptisme for a long season .

Disp. de Sacramentis Tom. 1. Concil. in decretis Leonis primi Can. 6. And your Suarez , and Binius doe say , that the former custome of the Church , and Decree of Pope Leo , were changed by the Church , because of the danger which by so long delay did ensue .

If therefore the Anabaptist bee excluded from the visible Church , because of the danger which by delay of Baptisme , doth ensue to children ; Then Pope Leo the first for Decreeing a delay of Baptisme , with the like danger , and a great part of the Christian Church , for observing the same , were excluded out of the visible Church . This was it you should first have proved , that the Anabaptist is out of the Church afore you tooke it as a premise , or undoubted Proposition , thence to inferre a Conclusion ; let me propose the Argument againe in that forme which you most affect with Iffs and Ands.

If Master Rogers Grounds be true , the Anabaptist receiving the Scriptures , Apostles Creed , and agreeing with the Protestants in all things , saving this , that he will not Baptise children , is of the Church .

But such an Anabaptist is not of the Church .

Ergo , Master Rogers Grounds be not true .

Negatur minor ; you have not spoken one word to prove that such an Anabaptist is not of the Church , which till you prove , your conclusion cannot follow ; all that you say is in proofe of the major which I grant .

Whereas you say , and would have it supposed , that I cannot produce as many proofes against this Negative of the Anabaptist , as the Romanists doe usually produce against Negatives , is most false ; for instance , if you will bring me one Author for your halfe Communion , your Transubstantiation , the Bookes of Machabees , Irenaeus , Origen . Cyprian . confessed by Bellarm. lib. 1. de bap. cap. 8. to be Canonicall ; in all which you are Affirmative , and I Negative ; I say , if you bring one Author in the first 300 yeeres for these your affirmatives , I will bring three to one for our Affirmative of Baptizing In the same time .

I will produce for this my affirmative , Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent ; doe you the like for your Affirmatives , and I will be of your Church . All the rest of your frivolous chat , concerning the Annabaptist , what he may say , what exceptions he may take against Authors , against Translations , is nothing against any thing that I have written , you name no Authors , you name no particular exceptions . So you cavill againe with my distinction of Doctrines fundamentall , and doctrines accessory , not being able to produce one Argument against them ; and ignorantly , or impudently deny a destinction delivered by Saint Augustine , received by your great Schoolman Aquinas , by your great Iesuites , Bellarmine and Valenza , acknowledged by the Divines of our Church , as I have formerly shewed out of these Authors , and the thing doth manifest it selfe , doe not some things that are contained in Scripture more neerely concerne our salvation , then others ? Can any man be saved without knowing Christ to be the Saviour of the world ? And may not a man be saved without knowing that Iacob loved Rachel better then Leah ? Or that Pharaoh dreamed of fat and leane Kine ? To what tends your Schoole distinction ;

Of 1. Fides explicita . & 2. Fides implicita . of necessitas . 1. Medii . 2. Praecepti .

And their large disputes , what are to be beleeved , necessitate medii , without which a man cannot be saved ; and what necessitate praecepti , things that they ought to beleeve , and offend if they doe not , but not with so great danger , as if they beleeve not the former : What meane these two Distinctions ? and that which I cited out of Aquinas , and by which I explicated my owne distinction of fundamentall , and accessorie , I meane res fidei Per se . Per accidens .

If this be answering to except against the Grounds of Fathers , Schoolemen , Iesuites , and reformed Divines , without framing one Argument against them , it is easie answering indeed .

Whereas you say that none of the Authors by me alleadged , not Luther himselfe held the entire Protestant Faith , is untrue : and you bring no proofe , but a false supposition , that all Protestant Doctrines different from the faith of the Roman Church , may be called Doctrines of Protestant faith , this I formerly denyed , and you bring no reason to the contrary , yet still you urge it as your onely medium , or principle . I have shewed you reasons to the contrary , which when you answer , I will eat Pauls Steeple , one thing which I delivered in my first Answer , maketh it cleare : the question betweene you and me , is of Transubstantiation , Invocation of Saints , Purgatorie , Indulgences , worshipping of Images , &c. Which you affirme I deny , and therefore they are no points of my faith , for no man would deny his owne faith , I will reduce it into forme .

No man will deny the points of his owne faith .

But we Protestants deny Transubstantiation , Invocation of Saints , Purgatorie , and all your new Creed .

Ergo , Neither Transubstantion , nor Invocation of Saints , nor Purgatory , nor any part of your new Creed , are points of Protestant faith .

And they being your faith , you are bound by the rule of Saint Peter , to give an account of your faith , 1 Pet. 3 , v. 15.

CHAP. XXIII .

Fisher .

BUt if all Protestant Doctrines which be different from the Roman Church her faith , be not Doctrines of Protestant faith , I require Master Rogers to shew me which ( in particular ) be , and which be not Doctrines of Protestant faith , that it may be discerned , who did , and who did not hold the Protestant faith , and that withall he give me a substantiall ground well proved out of Scripture , why those particular points which he shall assigne , are points of Protestant faith , rather then others , contained in the 39 Articles ; If he say ( as he hath already seemed to say ) that none of their negative Doctrines pertaine to their faith , and that all which is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes , and that this affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith ; it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes ; out of which it will follow that those English Protestants , who shall hold some of the 39 Articles , and deny the rest , may be said to have no faith different from those which subscribe to all the 39 Articles ; which last Consequence , if Master Rogers grant , I aske why the booke of the Canons doth excommunicate ipso facto , such halfe Protestants ? Why doe their Bishops imprison them as Hereticks , and not account them members of their Church ? And why may not Roman Catholikes , by as good , or better right accouunt Protestants ( who deny so many points defined in both ancient and recent Generall Councels ) to be Hereticks , excommunicaeed , and no members of the ancient , and present Catholike Church .

Rogers .

That which you require heere , I performed in my first Answer in my definition of a Protestant , or else it had been no good definition , had it not contained all that is essentiall , this you know well enough , but because you have nothing to answer , you will demaund the same question againe . Looke into my definition , there you shall finde it ; and I made the same request unto you for a definition of the visible Church , and what points you hold to be fundamentall ; to which you make no answer at all .

I there also undertooke to prove all our Affirmations which you deny , so you doe the like , by your Affirmations which we deny , my words were these in my former answer .

Rogers in his first answer .

In all these I defend the Negative ; and so it doth belong to you to prove the Affirmative , which when you shall doe by testimonies of Writers in all ages , I will yeeld unto you : for you proving the Affirmative , the Negative will fall of it selfe , as for example ; The first instance of Negation in our Articles , is part of the sixt Article concerning those bookes of Esdras , Tobit , Iudith , &c. which we receive not for Canonicall : you doe , the proofe is on your side .

What I require of you I will performe on our side , whatsoever is affirmative in our Articles , I will maintaine to be affirmed , and taught in all Ages , as the 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , Articles , the Affirmative part of the 6 , the 7 , 8 , and so in the rest , or I will yeeld unto you .

Give me instance what Affirmation of our Articles you deny , and I will prove it in all Ages . And I desire you to set downe withall , which of your affirmative Articles you receive , and whether we agree in the Articles of the Creed , or not .

I will doe the like by you , and give you an instance in our Affirmatives , Shew me who in every Age did receive the bookes of Esdras , Machabees , Tobit , Iudith , &c. for Canonicall in the 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , Centurie of yeares ; This is one of the first points of your Tridentine faith .

Master Fisher , I desire you also for the avoiding of confusion to deliver your opinion ; whether all the Affirmative Doctrines of the Councell of Trent , are matters of faith per se fundamentall , and necessary to be held for salvation , fide explicita ? I speake , de adultis quibus facultas discendidatur , Thus farre in my former Answer , to which you have made reply ; you have neither shewed which of our Affirmative Articles you deny , nor which you receive , nor have you proved one Instance I gave of your Affirmatives , nor as much as expressed what you hold for matters of faith , but dissembling all this , passe it over with silence ; unlesse you had thought as the Boy did by his bodged verses , that what you wrote would never be read , but that men would reade the Titles , and number the Pages , and there finde written over head , Master Rogers weake Grounds , Master Rogers weake Arguments , would take the rest upon trust ; would you ever have put Pen to Paper , and yet in matters of Controuersies , never expresse what your selfe held ; nor tell us , being requested , what your owne faith is , or to give a reason of your owne faith ; nor to define your owne Church : And answer formally , and punctually to no one Argument , and frame no one Argument of your owne ; Hominis est vehementèr abutentis & otio , & literis . That a man should offer to write a Tract , and that in so sacred a profession , as Divinitie , and that in a question of so high a nature , as these are , what is the Christian faith ? what is the visible Church ? and herein not answer one question , not to bring one Distinction , or Definition , or frame one Argument in forme , or like a Scholler , is a mispending of time , wasting of Paper , and abusing the very name of Learning . Divinity , as all other Sciences , consisteth of Principles , and Conclusions ; the Principles received on both sides , are the Scriptures ( to which you would adde unwritten Traditions ) you bring not one place of Scripture to maintaine those Affirmative Tenents of yours , which we deny , you account Articles of faith . And as for Theologicall conclusions , you inferre none ; you frame no Argument , you make no Syllogisme , you give no reason of your faith , though Saint Peter require it whom I thought of all the Apostles you did most respect ; what shall we thinke then , but that you have neither Scripture , nor reason for your faith , I meane in your new Creed in which you dissent from us .

Fisher .

I require withall that he give me a substantiall ground well proved out of Scripture , why those perticular points which he shall assigne , are points of Protestant faith , rather then others contained in the 39. Articles ; if he say ( as he hath already seemed to say ) that none of their Negative Doctrines , pertaine to their faith , and that all that is affirmed by Protestants , is affirmed by Roman Catholikes , and that this Affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith , it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes .

Rogers .

He calleth unto me to distinguish between points of Protestant faith , and other points contained in the 39 Articles and yet in the next word he is faine to confesse that I distinguished ( if he say , as he hath already seemed to say ) that none of their Negative Doctrines , pertaine unto their faith . This I had delivered in my first Answer , and yet he still calleth for it , yet he must mince it a little , and say , I seemed to say ; so great a friend he is to seeming , that he will never leave it , knowing it to be essentiall to the definition of Sophistry , and a Sophister .

You might have left out your seeming , and written plainly that I said so ; seeing in my Answer to your first Paper , I spent nere a page in explicating , and exemplifying this Distinction , and in my Answer to your second Paper , which was delivered me as the worke of five Jesuites , then conversant about Gondamors house : I wrote thus ;

As I did admonish Master Fisher to distinguish betweene Affirmation , and Negation , so I doe these men , and that faith is Affirmation , not Negation , for no man beleeveth what he denieth .

Secondly , In points of faith I like Master Fishers Rule .

They that are in the Affirmative must prove .

Now all that we affirme , they affirme ; as one God , three persons , all the Creed . So that we need not prove what our Adversaries do confesse .

But in those points in variance between us , they are to prove ; because they are Affirmative , we Negative : as unwritten Traditions , Latine Service , Invocation of Saints , &c. Thus farre in my former Answer . This is saying plainly , this is not seeming . Whereas you inferre , that seeing all which is affirmed by Protestants , is affirmed by Roman Catholikes , and this Affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith , it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes . I grant the Consequence ; what is this to the question , whether we are of the visible Church or no ? this which you would inferre , doth rather prove us to be a part of the visible Church , then any way gaine-say it . Thus

They which have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome , are parts of the visible Church .

But the Protestants have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome .

Ergo : The Protestants are a part of the visible Church .

The minor Master Fisher would inferre out of my Grounds as if I would deny it ; no , I grant it , and so I hope will he the major , then the conclusion must follow .

We differ from you in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines , and Discipline , which you terme to be points of faith , but we deny .

They are corruptions of faith , Innovations , Idolatrous , Antichristian Doctrines . You would force them upon us , as points of faith ; we refuse them , because the Scripture doth not expresse them , the Primitve Church did not know them , and the greatest part of the Christian Church to this day doth not approve them ; And your owne writers are distracted into many and divers opinions concerning them . Paulus venet . l. 1. & 2 What Antiquity have you for your halfe Communion , Worshipping of Images , &c. What Universality , seeing the Church of Greece of Syria the Georgians , Circassians , Mengiellians , Breitenbachius Purgr . c. de Iacobitis . Vitrivius Histor. orientalis c. 76. the Moscovits , and Russians , the Christians of Babylon , of Assyria , Mesopotamia , Parthia , Media , of Cassar , Samarcham , Charcham , Chinchtalis , Tanguth , Suchir , Ergimal , Tenduck , Caracam , Mangi , the Iacobits , whose Sect is extended , and spred abroad in some fourty Kingdomes , ( which I assure my selfe is more large then all the Roman Church ) do communicate in both kindes , worship not Images , deny Purgatory , and ( which with you is more then all the rest ) deny the Popes Supremacy . So you have neither Antiquity nor Universality , ( to which I might adde ) nor Consent among your selves in those additions of yours , contained in your new Creed . As for one Instance , the Councell of Trent hath made the bookes of Machabees Canonicall , Melitus Sav. Origenes . Athanasius . Hilarius . Epiphanius . Cyrillus . Nazianzen . Amphiloch . Hieronymus Ruffinus . which is left out of the Canon by ten Fathers , that is , I take it , by all the Fathers that dyed within 400 yeares after the Incarnation , and wrot of that subject . Your Nicholaus Lyranus , Dionysius Carthusianus , Hugo , and Thomas de Vio , Cardinals : whereof this last was one of the most learned that ever the Church of Rome had , insomuch that in the Councel of Trent it was said ; I thinke no man heere doth thinke himselfe so great a Divine but that he might learne of Cajetan . All these , I say , of your side exclude those Bookes from the Canon as we doe : yet will you not say , they were of another faith then the Church of Rome which you must say , if your new Creed , and Decrees of Councels , be points of faith , as you here say . And lest you should escape with your wandring discourses , and your flying from the question , I will presse my argument in forme .

Whosoever denyeth the new Creed , or any Articles thereof , the Councell of Trent , or any Doctrine thereof , is an Hereticke , and denyeth the faith .

But Carthusianus , and Thomas de Vio Cajetan , both Cardinals , deny some Articles of the new Creed , and some Doctrines of the Councell of Trent .

Ergo : Lyra Carthusianus , and Thomas de Vio , are Hereticks , and deny the faith .

I am sure you will hold this Conclusion to be false , if so then , one of the premisses must be false , not the minor , ergo , the major , which is your Tenet whereby you would proue us to be Hereticks , and to deny the faith .

Fisher .

Out of which it will further follow , that those English Protestants who shall hold some of the 39 Articles , and deny the rest may be said to have no faith different from those which subscribe to all the 39 Articles .

Rogers .

I grant it doth follow , so that those same Articles which they deny , be not those Articles which concerne the Unity of the Godhead , the Trinitie of persons , and all those things which are contained in the Creed ; I say therefore they differ in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines , or Discipline , not in faith , so they receive the Scriptures and Apostles Creed .

Fisher .

Which last consquence , if Master Rogers grant , I aske why the bookes of Canons doth excommunicate , ipso facto , such halfe Protestants .

Rogers .

They may be excomunicated for gaine saying Ecclesiasticall Doctrines , or the established Discipline of the Church , they may be excommunicated as erroneous Shismaticks .

Fisher .

Why doe their Bishops imprison them as Hereticks , and not account them members of their Church .

Rogers .

Andrewes in his Defence of the Apologie for the other . Bilson in his perpetuall government of the Church . Carleton against the Appeal . They must be imprisoned as Schismaticks : Our Bishops doe all professe that there are no Puritane Doctrines , that the difference is onely in matter of Discipline , they count them neither Hereticks , nor wholly excluded out of the Church : here you have supposed two falshoods in two lines ; those learned Protestants from beyond the Seas , whose Discipline doth somewhat vary from ours , doe testifie that the purity of Doctrine doth flourish in England purely , and sincerely ; So Beza from Geneva , that by Queeene Elizabeths comming to the Crowne , God againe had restored his Doctrine , and true worship ; So Zanchius , that the whole compasse of the world hath never seene any thing more to be wished , then is her Government ; So Daneus .

Fisher .

And why not Roman Catholicks by as good , or better right account Protestants ( who deny so many points defined in both ancient , and recent Generall Councels ) to be Hereticks Excommunicated , and no members of the Ancient , and present Catholick Church .

Rogers .

If we did the one , you may doe the other : but I have shewed the falshood of your supposition , that we count them Hereticks , who discent from us in any of our Articles , they may be erroneous in a lesser nature then Heresie , & turbulent in those errours ; they may be Schismaticks disobedient unto Government , and so excommunicated , and imprisoned for either of those , without Heresie .

If all Decrees of Councels be Doctrines of faith , as you affirme , your Cardinall Bellarmine is deceived who saith that in Councels the greatest part of those things which are done doe not belong to faith , neither the Disputations concerning faith , nor the reasons which are added , nor those things which are brought for explication , and illustration , but onely the very naked Decrees , and not all those , but they alone who are proposed as matters of faith . To this subscribed Widrington , in the Preface above alleadged , and he voucheth Canus for the same opinion .

CHAP. XXIIII .

Fisher .

I Aske what Scripture , or reason assureth that no Negative Doctrine pertaines to faith ? for Scripture having in it so many Negative sentences which are to be beleeved , assureth the contrary ; neither is there any reason which can assure a man that he is freed from beleeving : for example this Negative , Deus non mentitur , God doth not lie ; rather then from beleeving this Affirmative , Est Deus Verax , God is a true speaker , for both being said by one , and the same God , our Lord , Trueth it selfe , and both being propounded by one and the same Catholicke Church his Spouse , assisted by his Spirit , the Spirit of truth , as spoken by God in holy Scripture , both are equally to be beleeved ; neither can any without danger of eternall damnation deny , or doubt of either those or any other , even the least point of Catholike faith , as we may learn out of Saint Athanasius Creed , saying , that , Whosoever will be saved , it is needfull that he hold the Catholike faith , which unlesse each one hold entire ( that is in all points ) and inviolate ( that is , in the true uncorrupted sense of the Catholike Church ) without doubt he shall perish everlastingly . So as whether the Doctrine be Negative or Affirmative , whether fundamentall , or accessory , supposing it to be a Doctrine propounded by the Catholike Church , as revealed by God , it must be beleeved explicite , or implicite , and may not rashly , or ( which is worse ) advisedly be denyed , or doubted of , and much lesse may the contrary be obstinately maintained against the knowne judgement of a lawfull Generall Councell , or the unanime consent of the Pastors of the Church , in regard our Saviour hath expresly averred , That he who despiseth them , despiseth himselfe , and him that sent him , to wit , God his Father . And againe , he that will not heare the Church , let him be to thee as an heathen , and Publicane . All which sheweth that such as do obstinately deny , or doubtingly dispute against any the least point knowne by Church proposition to be a point of Catholike faith , is worthily accounted an Heretike , a despiser of God , an excommunicated person , and no member of the true Catholike Church , and one who if he so live , and die without repentance , cannot be saved . But ( as Athansius without any want of charity pronounceth ) he shall without doubt perish everlastingly .

Rogers .

I have answered you more then once , and given you reasons more then one , or two , why Negations are not matters of faith , per se . fundamentall , and necessary , for I brought this distinction of Affirmation , and Negation after those distinctions of Doctrine .

1. Accessorie , of res fidei per se & res fidei per accidens . 2. Doctrine fundamentall of res fidei per se & res fidei per accidens .

Then I added this distinction of Affirmation and Negation , so that my meaning appeared by the connexion it had with that which went before , that Negations are not points or Articles of faith , are not fundamentall doctrines , are not res fidei per se , I did not say but they might be res fidei per accidens , as all propositions revealed in Scriptures , whether affirmative , or negative are , besides those Articles of faith . Here then you doe not dispute , ad idem , non facis elenchum , you prove what I doe not deny , you prove that Negatives contained in Scripture , pertaine to faith , which I do not deny , but you do not prove that they are points of faith , fundamentall Doctrines , res fidei per se , things proper and essentiall unto faith , as your great Schooleman Aquinas , your Bellarmine , and Valenza have written , cited by me afore ; where I have also shewed the difference betweene being a matter of faith , and pertaining to faith , neither doe I say that any man is freed from beleeving this Negative ; God doth not lie , or any other Negative revealed in Scripture , but that an implicite faith may serve in all Negatives , as well as those Affirmatives which are not Articles of the Creed , I say againe that ,

Negatives in Scripture are res fidei per accidens non per se .

They are accidentall unto faith not essentiall .

There is no generall necessity to beleeve them , fide explicita , so to beleeve them as actually to know them , but it is sufficient to beleeve them , fide implicita , with a minde prepared actually to beleeve them , when they doe appeare unto us actually to be revealed in Scripture .

All things revealed in Scripture have aequalem veritatem , non aequalem utilitatem .

They are equally true , but not equally profitable .

For these propositions , God is not a lyer ; God is not as man , the heathen hath no knowledge of his Law . Pharaoh was not obedient . And all that are Negatives in Scripture , being put together , cannot informe a man in that saving truth which is sufficient for his soules health to beleeve ; but a few Affirmatives , twelve Propositions contained in the Creed can doe it .

Againe I say that ,

All things revealed in Scripture have aequalem necessitatem credendi , non aequalem necessitatem cognoscendi .

It is not a like necessary for us to know all things revealed in Scripture : but it is a like necessary for us to beleeve them when we know them .

As you have falsified the predicate of my Proposition , by changing points of faith unto that which pertaineth unto faith , fundamentall into accessory ; proper , and essentiall into that which is accidentall ; so have you falsified the subject of the same Proposition : for immediately after that distinction of Affirmation , and Negation , my words were these ; In those Articles of our English Church , our Negation is partly a traversing , partly a condemning of your novelties , and additions , and therfore no part of our faith , for no man would deny his owne faith . Thus farre in my former Answer , as also in a few lines after , my words were these , The first instance of Negation in our Articles , is part of the sixth Article concerning those Bookes of Esdras , Tobit , Iudith , &c. whereby it appeareth manifestly , that I spake not of Negatives revealed in Scripture , but of Negatives in Doctrines Ecclesiasticall . Now that you should argue from Negatives in Scripture to Negatives out of Scripture , is à baculo ad angulum from the staffe to the corner , my Tenet therefore is that ,

Negatives revealed in Scripture are res fidei per accidens , non per se ,

Negatives not revealed in Scripture , are not res fidei vel per se , vel er accidens ,

Are neither essentially nor accidentally the object of faith .

That which you alleadge out of Athanasius ; I willingly embrace , I receive his Creed , I have often professed it in publicke , but what is that to your new Creed ? I finde in Athanasius his Creed , neither Purgatory , nor Indulgence , nor Transubstantiation , nor Invocation of Saints , nor seven Sacraments , nor worshipping of Images .

Wheras you say I must hold it in the uncorrupted sense of the Catholike Church , I doe imbrace it , but I will not understand the Church of Rome , or the Pope for the Catholike Church as you doe . The Catholike Church never received your Purgatory , your halfe Communion , your worshipping of Images , as I have shewed already ; I will obstinately maintaine nothing contrary to the known judgement of a lawfull Generall Councell , but your Councels of Trent , and Lateran are no such , they are but fopperies , and the jugling tricks of the Popish faction to cozen the world . Whatsoever we deny , when you prove it out of Scripture , we will beleeve it ; here is no obstinacie . Whatsoever is determined by Councels , we will receive , fide humana , but not divina , as the saying of Reverend men , but not as the Oracles of God . So also we approve the unanimous consent of the Fathers , in receiving all revealed truth , we are farre from Heresie : in submitting to the Catholike Church , and Decrees of Councels , we clear our selves from being Schismatikes : in following the unanimous consent of the Fathers , we shew our selves to be no Innovators ; but you by worshipping of Images , shew what respect you have to Scripture ; by your new Creed you shew what reverence you have to Generall Councels , seeing the Councell of Calcedon decreed , having repeated that which is commonly called the Nicene Creed , Isidor . fol. 83 and urged by the Grecians in the Councell of Florence . Surius Tom. 4. Ses . 5. Ferrariae habita . Lib. 7. c. 1. de loc. The. pag. 422 , 423. De rebus Muscovitarum pag. 38. In apara . Sacr. in Diamperi . Conc. that no man should write or say other Creed , and whosoever did , if Bishops and Clergie-men , let them bee deposed ; if Monkes , and Lay men , let them be accursed . What regard you have to the unanimous consent of the Fathers , appeareth by your Doctrine , that the Virgin Mary was conceived without originall sinne , contrary to Chrysostome , Ambrose , Augustine , Bernard , and all the holy men that made mention of that point , as your owne Canus confesseth : and so you are Innovators , Schismaticks , and Heretikes , despised , and excommunicated by all other Christian Churches in the World . By the Graecians , as appeareth by Posevine your owne Jesuite ; by the Indians , as is acknowledged by the same Author ; by the Coftie of Aegypt , and consequently by all the rest of the Iacobites the Aethiopians , and others acknowledging all subjection unto the Patriarch of Alexandria , so that upon you alone that curse is fallen .

Nec amet quenquam , nec ametur ab vllo .

You hate , you condemne all Churches of the World ; and they condemne you , you account them for Schismaticks , and Hereticks , and they you for Schismaticks , Hereticks and Idolaters ; your worshipping of Images , hinder the conversion of the Iewes and Turkes , who for this cause esteeme you for subtill Atheists , and heathenish Idolaters , falling downe to a blocke , and worshipping the worke of mens hands . We worship God .

Fisher .

Whereas therefore it is certaine that Protestants hold divers Negative Doctrines , not onely not found in , but contrary to Scriptures , Councels , and Fathers , and other Orthodox Authors in all Ages ; It evidently followeth , that Master Rogers hath not yet named , nor can name , nor hath proved , nor can prove , or defend any of those he named , or undertaketh to name , to have beene visible Protestants in all Ages before Luther , and consequently he cannot be said to have made any good answer , either to Master Fishers Question , or to his five Propositions , or to his other Paper , written to explicate the sense of the said Question .

Rogers .

What you say , certainely is most false , that Protestants hold divers Negative Doctrines contrary to Scriptures , Councels , and Fathers , if you understand Generall Councels , and unanimous consent of Fathers . We hold many Doctrines not expresly set downe in Scriptures , but none contrary to Scriptures , neither doe we count any thing matter of faith , but what is expresly contained in Scriptures . Whereas you say , that I have not yet named , nor proved Authors of the Protestants faith in all Ages , the present discourse will shew to be false , which I referre to the Reader .

Deo gloria in aeternum . FINIS .