Two dialogues, or conferences (about an old question lately renued, and by the schismaticall company, both by printed pamphlets, and otherwise to the disturbance of the Churches quiet, and of peaceable minds, very hotly pursued.) Concerning kneeling in the very act of receiuing the sacramental bread and wine, in the Supper of the Lord The former betweene two ministers of the word, the one refractarie, and depriued; the other not so. The latter betweene an humorous schismatike and a setled professor.

THE FIRST DIALOGVE or conference for the finding out of the truth , touching kneeling in the act of receiuing the Supper of the Lord . THE SPEAKERS . Seffray . Rogers .

WE ought herein to imitate Christ .

That is not simplie and absolutely true . For in the administration of the Lords Supper we are to imitate Christ , but onely in things necessarie , not accessorie ; and substantiall , not circumstantiall , and accidentall .

Christ is to be followed of vs , not as he was God , but as he was man ; and as man in his Morall euer , not alwayes in his Ministeriall actions .

Our Sauiour willeth vs in the celebration of this Sacrament , and the deliuerie of bread , and wine , to renue the memorie of his death and passion till he returne againe a a Luke 22. 19. , but not to vse his , or the Apostles gestures at the deliuerie of the elements . Hence the Apostle Paul did alter some things which our Sauiour did , in the administration of the Lords Supper , promising also at his returne to set other things in order b b 1. Cor. 11. 34. , which Saint Augustine vnderstandeth of the same forme , and maner of ministring the same , which is now obserued in our Churches reformed c c D. August . Epist. 118. .

Lastly , if herein we be necessarily tied to the example of Christ , then are we to minister this Sacrament , not ( as wee doe now ) in the publique Church , but in a priuate house , not in the morning , but in the night : not after dinner , but after supper : not vnto women , but onely vnto men , and those Ministers too of the word . For all this did Christ , and we doe not , and yet herein doe nothing against the will of God .

Christ performed this action sitting . Mat. 26. 20. Mar. 14. 18. Luke 22. 14. Iohn . 13. 12.

Meane you that the people should stand , and the Minister sit , because Christ performed this action sitting ? Or would you haue both Minister and people to sit , when the Sacrament is to bee administred , because Christ performed this action sitting ? What your meaning may be , when you say , Christ performed this action sitting , is verie doubtfull and vncertaine .

If you would haue the people to stand , and the Minister to sit , because Christ performed this action sitting , you aske more then I euer yet heard demanded . If you would haue the people to sit , and the Minister to stand , you swarue from the imitation of Christ , who performed this action sitting . If you would that both Minister and people should sit , because Christ performed this action sitting , though you haue some few Churches concurring with you in your desires : yet are you nothing neare the example of Christ , which you would bind vs vnto . For Christ did not performe this action ( after our maner ) sitting . If you will imitate Christ in this action , then must you lie downe on little pillowes at the table , as he and his Disciples did d d See Caluin , Beza , Vileriua , yea and the Geneua Bible annot● ▪ on Ioh. 13. 23. , and not sit , as you would haue the Church .

That is no good consequent , no more then this , that we must in the supper vse thinne broad vnleauened cakes , or loaues , because Christ did so .

If Christ did so , and yet we may vse in place thereof vsuall and not vnleauened bread at the Communion : then by this your owne reason , you may further see the insoundnesse of your first position , which was , that in the administration of the Lords Supper , we ought to imitate Christ .

It sufficeth that we sit , according to the vsuall maner of our Countrie , as he did after the maner of his .

The maner of our Countrie is to receiue our corporall food sitting ; the order of our Church , that wee receiue the spirituall foode of our soules at the Communion kneeling . It is as vndecent a thing in mine eie , in the publique Church , to receiue the food of our soules at the Lords table , sitting ; as it is in our owne hall and houses to take our corporall meate , kneeling .

It was in our Sauiour his choice , to administer it lying , sitting , kneeling , and how he thought good : but it is not in our election ( that be either Ministers or people ) how we wil minister , or take the same . For it ought by our Lawes , and orders to be receiued kneeling ; neither doth it suffice ( in respect of Church policie ) that we sit .

The vsuall maner of our Countrie is , not onely to sit , but to be couered also , when we are at our meate : ought wee therefore to haue our heads couered , when wee are at the Lords Table ? you may as well say this , as affirme the other .

Wherefore I denie not your consequent ( as perhaps you deeme I will ) but say ( as earst I did ) that wee are no more bound to our Sauiour his Sitting ( if he did sit , as he did not ) then we are tied to celebrate the Lords Supper in the Euening in a priuate house , to Men , and those Ecclesiasticall Ministers , and neither to women , nor to the laitie .

There is a reason of the change of those circumstances , as those which were incident properly to the first institution , which was immediatly to succeed the last Passeouer , which Passeouer was to be eaten in the Euening , in a priuate family , being sufficient for a Lambe , Exod. 12. 3 , 4 , 5. 6 , 7 , 8. Now it tendeth to edification to celebrate the Supper in the day , and openly in the Congregation , consisting of beleeuers , both men and women ; and therefore the Church hath done well in changing these circumstances , according to the precept of the Apostle . 1. Cor. 14. 26.

You crosse not me at al , but display still the vnsoundnes of your first assertion . The Church after Christ both well might , & lawfully did , both adde & alter many things in the forme , and maner of administration of the Lords Supper , which our Sauiour either purposely omitted , or left to her determination .

But there can no reason be rendred of changing Sitting into Kneeling .

Changing of sitting ? You cannot say , and prooue , that Christ sate as we doe , at his last supper , but otherwise you haue said .

But did he sit , why may not the same his sitting , by his Church be changed into kneeling , as well as other circumstances by you repeated ? And what preheminence hath Sitting aboue Kneeling , that it may , and must be vsed at the Communion , and not that ? what reason haue you to the contrarie ?

Sitting is the most vsuall gesture in eating & drinking .

Thinke you we are to carrie our selues none otherwise in the Church of God then in our own houses ; at the Lords Table , then at our vsuall , and dayly refeshings ? when our refections be diuers , be our actions to be the same ?

Sitting is fittest for the ease of the bodie , best for signification of communion and fellowship both with Christ the head , and with Christians , the fellow members , and safest to preuent artolatrie or Bread-worship , which Christ in his wisedome foresaw , and ( it is likelie ) by the gesture of Sitting did meete withall , and preuent .

O ( M. S ) . let it suffice vs poore inferiour persons , and Ministers that we know ( o yet that wee knew so much ! ) what is fit , and fittest ; good , and best for our selues , and ours : as for what is fittest , best , and safest to be done in the publique assemblies of Gods people , leaue we that vnto our betters to determine , vnto whom it doth belong .

Would we not so quickly resolue and conclude what is better and best ; fitter , and fittest in these matters , it would goe better with vs , and the whole Church too , then alas it doeth .

Yet to tell you what I thinke , though Sitting as we vse to sit at our common feastings , is both comely , and commendable : yet so to Sit at the Communion , carrieth not that shew of humble reuerence vnto the al-holy God , as Kneeling doth . But to Lie , or Leane , or ( if you will ) to Sit at the Lords Table , as our Sauiour , and his Disciples did , were verie vnseemly , and vndecent among vs .

This chargeth Christ and his Apostles with want of reuerence , which is absurd .

Not a whit . For Christ , and his Apostles did that which the custome both of those times , and of their country made common , and vsuall ( your selfe hath confessed . ) And therfore both he and they did that which was both ciuill and comely .

Againe , our Sauiour might do that surpassingly wel , which we cannot . Any action beseemed his person , because without sin . He graced all his gestures , no gesture graced him . But we ( alas ! ) we are sinfull wretches , repairing vnto the Lords boord , partly like supplicants , humbly suing for the remission of our sinnes ; & partly to shew our thankfulnesse for the comforts and benefites we haue receiued , and hope to bee partakers of through Christ . And therefore haue iust cause euen most humbly to kneele , as we do .

THE SECOND OBIECTION . S.

KNeeling in the receiuing the Lords Supper , hath an apparance of euill .

From the commendation of Sitting , how quickly are you come to the open condemnation of Kneeling at the L. table ? And a wonder it is , if he that once falleth into a debasing of holy & established orders in a church , come not to an vtter detestation of them in the end . Take heede in time .

If I should reason thus :

Sitting in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill ; therfore to be auoided : would you allow this argument for good ? No more doe I approue your kind of reasoning . And yet sooner will I iustifie mine , then you shall proue your Antecedent .

M. Beza saith , that Kneeling in receiuing the signes hath a shew ( not of euill , as you say , but ) of godly and Christian veneration a a Epist ▪ 12. . And this saying is true .

Did but an earthly King or Prince offer vs pardon for our transgressing his temporall statutes , would it become vs , or carried it a shew of reuerence to his Maiestie , to receiue it Sitting ? And when grace and pardon for all our sinnes in the Sacrament of Christ his Supper , is offered vnto vs by the seales of bread and wine , carieth it a shew of euill to receiue it kneeling ? It is called the Sacrament of thankesgiuing , euen for most heauenly benefites vnto Almightie God ; and with what better action of the bodie can wee testifie our thankfulnesse , then on bended knees ?

We offer vp our selues , euen our soules and bodies , an holy and liuely sacrifice vnto our God ; and is there any gesture that better becommeth such Priests then Kneeling ?

Is this mysterie of so great waight , as the open contempt thereof brings damnation b b 1. Cor. 11. v. 29. & ● . ; and shall the receiuing thereof with the greatest shew of reuerence be counted , if not an apparant euill , yet an apparance of euill ?

May the knee be bent at the name of Iesus c c Phil. 2. 10. ; and may we not kneele at the receiuing the holy Sacrament of his bodie and blood , but we either do ill , or seeme so to doe ? Must we humble our harts , which is the greater , & not bend our knees which is the lesse ? Must we humble our hearts , and not expresse our inward humiliation by outward Kneeling ?

We may not .

Why so ?

For it carrieth an apparance of Bread-worship . Therefore to be auoided . 1. Thes. 5. 12.

You must iudge of our Kneeling by our doctrine , as we iudge of the Papists kneeling by their doctrine : we would not , neither could we iustly condemne the Papists for their kneeling , were not their doctrine most heretical and blasphemous . Neither ought you to condemne our kneeling at the Communion , except you can shew the doctrine of the church of England , is for the adoration of bread and wine .

Suscipitur ab artolatris Eucharistiae Sacramentum flexis poplitibus : The Bread-worshippers receiue the Sacrament Eucharisticall on bended knees , and here in England the faithfull take it with the same gesture of bodie , whereat some are offended , Sed meo iudicio nullâ de causa , but in my iudgement without cause ( saith a learned man a stranger . ) For both of them adore , they ( that is , the Papists ) the bread : these ( viz. the faithfull in England , not bread , but ) Christ , sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens d d D. Serauia de diuersi . minist. grad. p. 582 .

I am sure there is not a syllable in the Communion booke that importeth any shew of this euill you speake of ; and our doctrine is , ( as all the world doth know ) how to reserue , cary about , lift vp , or worship the Sacrament of the Lords Sup. Supper , is contrarie to the ordinance of Christ e e Art. of Religion . Art. 28. .

Doctrine and practise must go together , otherwise we pull downe with one hand , that wee build with the other . As he that teacheth that an Idol is nothing in the world , and yet sitteth at Table in an Idols Temple , destroieth with his act , that he built with his speech . 1. Cor. 8. 4. 10.

That the practise of our church concurreth not with her doctrine is a reproch laid very vniustly vpon a most religious nation ; & should much vex your heart that euer you had such a thought of a Church most famous & renowmed thorowout the world , for the puritie of doctrine , which shee doth professe , and accordingly practise . And therfore either make your words good , or confesse your great ouerslip .

THE THIRD OBIEGTION . S.

IT is a monument of Idolatrie deuised by man , of no necessarie vse in the seruice of God . Therefore to be remoued . Deut. 7. 25 , 26. & 12. 3. 2. King . 18. 4. Isa. 30. 32. 2. Cor. 6. 17. Iude 23.

Be intreated , I pray you , to marke whither your affections , not guided by discretion , haue caried you . At the first you said not , that Kneeling at the Communion , was an euill action , but not the best ; nor after that , how it was in it selfe euill , but An apparance of euill : But now forsooth , it is a monument of Idolatrie , which is euill indeed . Thus one euill thought bringeth another . Take heede of them in time , else bring you to worse .

Besides , this assertion is as voide of reason among men , as it is of truth in religion . For as to Kneele at the holy Communion is no Idolatrie , nor so much as apparance thereof in sound Diuinitie : so is Kneeling not in the predicament of substance , but of Site . And therefore no Monument by the rule of reason .

But be it a Momument , is our kneeling a Monument of Idolatrie ? Kneeling at the Masse is grosse , and palpable Idolatrie . Is therefore kneeling also at the Communion a Monument of Idolatrie ?

Last of al , let Kneeling be of neuer so impious and detestable vse among Papists : yet is the same gesture of good & necessarie vse in our church . For hereby ( as by the seemliest behauior for so religious a seruice , ) we testifie the earnest , and most zealous deuotion of our souls , when we do either pray , or praise God , as we do both at the receiuing the sacrament .

So that , were it a Monument of Idolatrie ( as it is nothing lesse ) deuised by man : yet because it is of so good and necessarie vse in our seruice of God , euen in your owne iudgement , and conscience , and that from these your words , it is not to be remoued .

And so the consequent in this your Enthymeme , viz. Kneeling is to be remoued from the supper of the Lord , is of no validitie ; both because it followeth not from the premises , and is forced and inferred against your conscience .

THE FOVRTH OBIECTION . S.

IT is an offence to the weake . Ergo. &c. Mat. 18. 6. & seq. Rom. 14. 20 21. 1. Cor. 8. 12 , 13 , & 10. 28 , 29 , 30.

It is an offence to the weake . Ergo , &c. What ?

Till I know your consequent , this shall be my answer vnto the Antecedent ; how our Sauiour speaketh ( Mat. 18 , & seq . ) of such defaults , as whereby other men , either by erroneous doctrine , or vitious conuersation , be offended , or hindered from their proceedings , either in godlines , or good maners : now Saint Paul in all the places by you quoted , speaketh of not offending in matters and things in their owne nature indifferent , neither prohibited by God in his word , nor by any lawfull ordinance of man .

He that openly any thing either doth or saith , forbidden of God , both sinneth against God , & giueth offence to man : and may expect , without repentance , a fearfull and double punishment , both for his fact , which is ill , & for the example he therby giueth , which is worse .

Againe , he that in things indifferent , and at mans libertie to doe , or leaue vndone , hath not a tender care of weake Christians in his doing , sheweth that there is not that charitie in him , nor regard of his brethren which God requireth . But though God doth not ; yet if his deputies , the Gods terrestriall , do enioyne any thing to be done , not opposite to Gods word , and tending vnto concord among men , order and comelinesse , and we will not obey , nor fulfill their directions , for offending some persons , pretending themselues to be weak , then are we so far from doing wel , as we do sin both against God , & man , in not fulfilling their commandements .

If therefore charitie , by the texts of Saint Paul , bindeth vs in things vncommanded , or not forbidden , to respect the weake ; much more pietie and dutie towards our gouernors should incite vs to do the things enioined by iust lawes . Disobedience to the lawfull ordinances of godly gouernors , is not only scandalous for the present , but may proue very dangerous in the consequent . Wherefore a wise man should not regard these lesser scandals of litle & weake ones , in comparison of the inconueniences , & great offences that arise & may follow through the manifest contempt of lawes established .

And in cases ( such as this Kneeling is ) wherein we cannot chuse but offend , either by doing , or not doing that which is commanded , better is it to offend the lesse then the greater ; a few priuate persons , then a whole State : and better barely to offend , then to offend and sin too , by fact and example , as by wilfull , and open disobedience we do .

In this point touching Kneeling , I know no weake ones that iustly may be offended ; and if there bee , they are not much to be regarded , considering the long , and constant preaching of the truth in this land , touching these , and the like points in controuersie .

It is a notable saying of Zanchius , and approued by all learned and iudicious Diuines , that for a time some thing is to be yeelded vnto these weake ones ( which you speake of ) euen till the truth may be taught them . But after that the truth ( about these matters in question , and the like ) hath bin set forth , and laid open , so as nothing can iustly be obiected against the same , and yet purposely they will abide doubtful ( and vnresolued , ) then is not their infirmitie any longer , either by simulation or dissimulation to bee nourished . Est enim pertinacia potiùs quàm infirmitas : For it is rather to be counted frowardnesse then weaknes . So Zanchius a a Zanch. de leg● . fol 493. .

As there haue beene , so there is , and will bee alwayes weake ones in the Church of God , both because it is Gods blessing ( which he bestoweth when , and where hee listeth ) that maketh strong ; and for that there be alwayes some new borne babes succeeding one another .

Weake or strong ; simple , or wise ; yong or old , whosoeuer , al must yeeld obedience to the orders of that church , whereof they are members , in all such matters as bee indifferent , and not repugnant to the word of God .

Kneeling in the act of receiuing , is not yet proued to be a thing indifferent .

I thinke your self will not say , that Kneeling in it owne nature , is either good , or euill ; then must it needes bee indifferent , euen as Sitting is .

Ista per se non sunt Idolatrica , ( speaking among other things of this Kneeling now in question ; ) These are not things of themselues idolatrous , saith Beza b b Epist. 12. . Therefore indifferent .

In things indifferent , those in authoritie must limit their precepts by the word of God , which willeth that the weake be not offended by any brother whatsoeuer .

Authoritie in making lawes , must respect alwayes the common and publique good : not what will please this or that man

If the Church should stay from making of Constitutions , til she can be assured that all her children will be pleased with her doings , hardly , if euer , shall she make any lawes , and so would brawles and disorders without end or number increase & abound . And hauing once made them , to abrogate , or not to execute them for feare of displeasing the weake , what were it but either childish leuitie , or ridiculous lenitie ?

THE FIFT OBIECTION . S

IT strengthens the superstitious and idolatrous Papists in their Bread-worship . Ergo. 1. Cor. 10. 32.

The Papists they terme the Table of the Lord , prophane , and detestable , and deeme of our Communion , as of Idolatrous and sacrilegious superstition a a Test. Rhem : an . 1. Cor. 10. v. 31. ; they thinke it better to eate Ratsbane , then to participate of our bread , and to drinke Dragons gall , and Vipers blood , then our wine ; this they termesacrilegious , that poisoned b b Epist. to the Cath. Protest : at Antwerp . An. 1596. printed by Iouch Trogny . . When they take offence at the verie substance , are they strengthened at the accidents ? When they abhor the matter , take they comfort at our forme and maner of receiuing the same ? And be they strengthened thereby in their Bread-worship ?

Assure your selfe it is all one to the Papists , whether wee kneele , or sit , or walke , or amble , the whole action or ministration thereof , whatsoeuer it bee , is to them a like vile and abominable .

You cannot proue our Kneeling in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord , to be a strengthning of the Papists in their Bread-worship : but our not Kneeling doth strengthen the licentious and lawlesse Brownists in their irreligious contemning of our Communions .

That Kneeling doeth strengthen the Papists in their Bread-worship , may bee proued both by reason and experience .

By reason ? how ?

For that superstition and idolatrie being planted in our nature , as a most fertile soile , will not be destroied if there be left behind so much as a string thereof .

You cannot thinke of , sure I am , you cannot name a Church wherin there be not , if not some branches , yet some sprigs , or at least strings of superstition and idolatrie ; will those strings in time proue springs of idolatrie , and superstition , if vtterly and altogether they be not rooted out ? These are the thoughts of the brainsicke Brownists ; God forbid they should continue in your mind . For what haue wee al-most in , and about our publique seruice , which hath not serued to some idolatrous and superstitious purpose or other in former daies ? must all such things therefore vtterly be abolished & taken away ? Is it necessarie they should ? is it possible they can be remoued ?

But what makes all this for the profe , that either our Kneeling is superstitious , or the Papists to be strengthned thereby in their Bread-worship , and Idolatrie ? when by reason you cannot , proue it if you can by experience .

Since this Kneeling and other things deuised or abused by the Papists haue been so strictly vrged , they haue growne exceedingly in number , & in boldnes , affirming that we are now come to sup of their broth , and ere it be long we will eate of their meate .

Lamentable experience doth tell vs , how the Papists haue but too exceedingly increased ( the more is the pitie : ) but to ascribe the cause thereof so peremptorily vnto the strict vrging of conformitie , and obedience vnto our Churches orders , is more then he should doe which is not of the counsell of God .

I should rather , and peraduenture do , thinke , that the obstinate refusing to Kneele , and keepe the customes and maners of our Church , doth not only hold backe many papists from ioyning with vs , but also cause the number of Recusants to increase . For is it likely that they , being naturally but too strict & precise obseruers of outward ceremonies themselues , wil euer brooke that Church and people , where wilful and refractarie men , either bee not punished at all , or but lightly and loosely censured ?

Whefore , though we cannot let them to increase , ( which is the iust punishment of God for our abusing the inestimable treasure of his word : ) yet would , yet should they lesse abound , did either priuate persons yeeld more obedience to the lawfull Iniunctions of authoritie ; or , ( others being froward and incortigible ) publique officers more strictly vrge them thereunto .

And would you ( which I wish you would ) by your selfe note & consider how these Papists doe laugh in their sleeues to heare of the hot and eager contention that is among vs about this kneeling , and such other matters , it would make you to weepe , and doth cause me to sigh when I think therof , as not seldome I doe .

Away therefore ( brother S. ) with this conceit , that the strict vrging of conformitie encourageth the Papists : this preconceit hath done much hurt , and not onely keepeth backe many from concurring with their brethren in due obedience , but also encourageth & increaseth the dangerous faction of our home Brownists . But this you will neuer put away , so long as you are of mind ( which I pray God to alter ) that this Kneeling of ours was either deuised at the first , or abused afterwards by the Papists ; and that nothing abused , though not deuised by them , may either be well vsed of inferiors , or strictly vrged by the superior power , when they are established .

No Papists , I think , wil affirm which you say , that in Kneeling at the holy Communion , we sup of their broth . Our Kneeling hath as much resemblance of their adoring , as our Communion affinitie with their Masse . We sup not of their broth at our Communion , no more then they drinke of the Lords cup at their Masse . There is as little hope ( God be thanked ) that we shall eate of their meate , as that they will feed of our Banquets .

THE SIXT OBIECTION . S.

IT is a worship of God deuised by man . Ergo. Mat. 15. 9. Col. 2. 22. 23.

So is Sitting , so is Standing at the Communion a worshipping of God . Howbeit none can truly say of Kneeling at the Lords table , that it is a meere deuice of man , as Sitting among vs , is . For it is so an humane , as withall it is a diuine institution .

This gesture is of God ( because it belongeth vnto religious prayer vnto God , and thankesgiuing ) though appointed by man , and from men ; yet not from the idle sconce of man , but from men illuminated by the holy Ghost , & from men of God .

If you denie it to bee a worship of God , I could proue it .

I doe not denie it to be a worshipping , or that in kneeling we doe worship God : yet how proue you so much ?

Thus. It is a bowing of the knee for a religious vse , namely , to shew our inward reuerence towards Christ , whose bodie and blood are represented by bread and wine . Ergo.

Ergo ? What ? Ergo no adoration is it , or shew of adoration of bread and wine , ( which afore you affirmed ) say I.

That is not my meaning : but , Ergo vnlawfull , and not to be done , say I.

Vnlawfull ? Proue that .

The places of Scripture to that purpose are many .

Cite some of them .

Thou shalt not bowe downe to them , nor worship them . Exod. 20. 5.

By this kind of gesture all kind of seruice and worship vnto idoles is forbidden , a a Geneua annot. Exod. 20. 5. which being so , vnlesse you can proue , ( which you shall neuer doe ) the bread and wine at our Communions to be idoll ; and also that in kneeling we doe seruice and worship vnto bread and wine , you shall neuer make our kneeling at the receiuing of those creatures , to be vnlawfull . What is the next place of Scripture to this purpose ?

It is out of the 95. Psalme , where the Psalmist doeth say : Come , let vs worship , and fall downe , and kneele before the Lord our maker . Psal. 95. 6.

This maketh for our kneeling , but proueth not the same vnlawfull . The Papists do say : that

As often as any man seeeth that body ( viz. of their Lord and maker ) at the Masse , or borne about to the sicke , he shall kneele down deuoutly , and say his Pater-noster , or some other good prayer in worship of his soueraigne Lord b b Quatuor ser. fol. 169. b .

Kneeled we downe when wee take the bread and wine with Popish thoughts , and deuotion , imagining our Lord and Maker vnder the formes of bread and wine , reallie and locallie to be there present : we then did against the expresse wordes of the Psalmist , who doth exhort vs to worship , and fall downe before the Lord our maker , and not before the workes of our owne hands : but comming thereunto with religious and Christian meditations , we worship , fall down , and kneele before the Lord our maker , euen when kneeling we receiue the Sacrament .

Yet will I leaue seuen thousand in Israel , euen all the knees that haue not bowed vnto Baal , and euery mouth that hath not kissed him , saith the Lord . 1. Kings 19. 18.

Why mention you this place ? To proue vs who at the Communion doe kneele to be like the Baalites ? Or why mention you this place ? To prooue your selues that refuse to kneele , to be the seuen thousand pure ones in England free from all contagion of idolatry and superstition ?

If to the former end , then iudge you most badly of the whole State , as of Idolaters , Baalites , or Hypocrites ; and very vncharitably of your brethren as of men-pleasers , Temporizers , and I know not what . For which I doubt not but your owne conscience doth chide you , or will one time or other .

If to the latter end , know you , &c. you shall neuer proue , either vs that kneele to bee Time-seruers , Men-pleasers , and idolaters ; or those that will not stoope , or bowe their knees , no not at the Lords table and Communion , to be the purest and best worshippers of God .

Haue you any more to say ?

Yes , Mark what Naaman said vnto the Prophet : Herein the Lord be mercifull vnto me ( saith he ) that when my Master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there , and leaneth on my hand , and I bow my selfe in the house of Rimmon , when I doe bow downe ( I say ) in the house of Rimmon , the Lord be mercifull vnto thy seruant in this point . 2. Kin. 5. 8.

What likenes betweene the house of Rimmon and our Churches ; betweene the idol Rimmon , and the holy Communion ; betweene Naamans bowing vnto , or before an idoll , and our bending the knee at the Lords table ? because the one was cursed and vnlawfull , must needs the other be so ?

When Cornelius fell downe at Peters feete , and worshipped him , accepted Peter of that adoration , or rather did he not reproue Cornelius for so doing ? Acts 10. 25. 26.

Cornelius shewed too much reuerence , and farre passing decent order , as though Peter had bin a God . c c Geneua annot. 10. 25. When we giue such adoration vnto the bread and wine , blame vs for committing idolatrie , as Peter did Cornelius : you should proue that in worshipping God when wee kneele at the Lords table , wee doe that which is vnlawfull ; and to that ende you beate your braines and trie your wits , but to no purpose .

And though you see it a very difficult thing , yea vnpossible for you to effect ; and know besides that our Church hath protested and published , that the Sacrament of the Lordes supper is not by Christs institution to bee worshipped ; d d Art of Reli. 28. and neither directly nor indirectly imboldeneth any Communicant in Idolatrie , or bread-worshippe , but in adoring the Maker and Redeemer of vs all : yet no remedie , in kneeling wee are either Idolaters , Baalites , or Temporizing Naamites in your iudgement . O hard and heauie censure ! Repent , repent , and change your vncharitable conceits .

THE SEVENTH OBIECTION . S.

IT is a breach of the second commandement .

Whither now !

No maruel that you liken vs to Idolaters , Baalites , & Hypocrites , when you dare affirme our kneeling to be a breach of the second commandement . M. Caluin hauing perused our Leiturgie , vsed in K. Edwards daies ; saith , that he therin spied multas tolerabiles ineptias , many tollerable imperfections : a a Caluin . epist. ad Anglos Francofurt . fol. 158. but none intollerable impiety at all .

M. Cartwright ( that pried into that booke for all aduantages to bring it into dislike ) doth ingenuously confesse how the grosse errors and manifest impieties are taken away b b T. C. 1. rep. 102. .

And M. Gifford ( writing against Barrow and Greenwood ) saith directly , c c Replie to Bar. and Gr. p. 19. I stand to iustifie by the word of God , that indeed there is neither idolatry , heresie , nor blasphemie in the same booke . All these learned men ( against whom I know you will not accept , though I could wish they had thought better of our Church ) do shew that what you here say , is slanderous and vntrue .

But why is it a breach of the second commandement ?

In that kneeling is a worshipping of God , at or before a creature ; namely , bread and wine .

May we not worship God at or before a creature ? Then may we not in our priuate houses with our familie ; nor in Gods house , with our euen Christians , worship God any way , but it is a breach of the second commandement . For who can any where , or at any time worship God , but it is either at , or before some creature ?

Had you said it had beene a breach of the second commandement to worship God at , or before an idoll , I had gone with you . ( For it is a worshipping of the true God after a wicked and false manner : ) but saying it is a breach of the second commandement to worship God at , or before a creature ( without exception of any ) who can ioyne with you that hath his right wits ?

It is a breach of the second commandement , not only to worship an idoll , but also God at , or before any thing not appointed by himselfe for such an vse .

Then is it no breach of the second commandement to worship God at the participation of bread and wine at the holy Communion . For he hath appointed them for such an vse : for who can receiue them , or how can they be receiued otherwise ?

If what you say heere be true , ( as it is most false ) you also that do sit when ye do participate of that heauenly repast , as well as we that kneele , are violaters of the second commandement . For yee , euen in sitting worship God as well as we in receiuing of the Sacrament , and that before bread and wine too , which are apppointed of God for such an vse . And he eateth and drinketh vnworthily ( whether he kneele or sit ) who at the Lords table , and when he receiueth bread and wine adoreth not God .

Ioshua fell downe prostrate before the Arke of God ; d d Iosh. 7. 8. the Shunamite at the Prophet Elisha his feete ; e e 2. King . 4. 37. the Priests and people of Israel bowed themselues , and fell downe on their faces to the earth vpon the pauement , and worshipped and praised the Lord : f f 2. Chron. 7. ver. 2 , 3. and yet was neither Ioshua nor the Shunamite , nor those holy Priests and people hitherto charged in these their actions to haue broken the second commandement of the Decalogue .

Cast your eyes , I pray you , vpon the Communion booke ; & marke not only what euery one at the receiuing of the sacrament doth , but what the Minister also , at the deliuery of the bread & wine saith ; and you shall find ( which you know well enough ) that it well beseemeth all Communicants to kneele at the hearing and consideration of such holy and heauenly wordes . g g The body of our L. Iesus Christ , &c. preserue thy body and soule , &c.

That prayer is not according to Christs institution .

Proue that , & our controuersie shal be quickly at an end .

Christ prayed onely in the consecration of bread and wine , and not in the deliuerie of them .

Though he did well in praying at the consecration : yet do we not ill in praying at the deliuerie of the Elements . Neither can you shew a commandement from God , either forbidding that we do , or enioining the imitation of his example .

It hath afore beene proued by me , and acknowledged by you , that we are not necessarily , and precisely bound to follow the doings of Christ in all things , when wee administer the Sacraments .

The praier is ended before the receiuing of bread and wine , and that some distance of time in great congregations , where the Minister maketh the prayer but once but to some 40. or 50. Communicants , who vsually sit all the time of praier , and after that fall downe on their knees , when the bread and wine are offered vnto them .

Impute not the disorders of some Ministers to the whole Church of England . And if some Communicants do sit all the time of prayer , and after fall downe on their knees , when the bread and wine is offered them , such Communicants would be taught , & told , that as in this their Kneeling , they do that , which both the lawes of our Church doth require , and also pleaseth God : so their not Kneling all the time of praier , is a most euident argument , how they neither approch vnto the Supper of the Lord with such preparation as is requisite ; nor being come , doe be haue themselues as they should .

For sure I am , and you cannot denie ( if aduisedly you mark the order of our Communion booke ) that albeit the Minister is directed somtimes to Kneele , sometimes to Stand , and neuer to Sit : yet the people are by the said booke to Sit neuer , but alwayes to Kneele from the first to the last .

THE EIGHT OBIECTION . S.

IT is vrged , being an humane inuention , aboue the commandement of God .

Our Kneeling in the receiuing of the Lords Supper , is not an inuention proceeding meerly from the wit & inuention of man , but ( as afore hath beene said ) is so from man , as withall it is the inuention , and institution of God .

Quaeritar ( saith master Caluin , writing about Kneeling at solemne praiers , and may as well be referred to Kneeling at the solemne receiuing of the supper of the Lord ) it is demanded whether it be a tradition of man , which euery man may lawfully refuse or neglect ? Now marke his answere .

I say ( saith he ) that it is so of man , as it is also of God . It is of God in respect that it is a part of that comelinesse , the care and keeping whereof is commanded vnto vs by the Apostle . It is of man in regard that it specially betokeneth that which had in generalitie rather beene pointed to , then declared . So Caluin a a Institut. l. 4. c 11. §. 30. .

And this the Church both lawfully may , and commendably doth vrge and call for at our hands .

It is vrged aboue the commandement of God . Ergo Math. 15. 3 , 4 , 5. 6.

How proue you the Antecedent ?

I proue it thus : The Minister is to bee suspended for giuing the bread and wine to a communicant not Kneeling , but not for giuing them to a Communicant , that neither can , nor will examine himselfe , before he eateth and drinketh at the Lords table . Ergo.

Your Antecedent is true in part , and in part not so .

True it is , that the Minister is to bee suspended for giuing the bread and wine to a Communicant that can and wil not kneele : and his punishment is deserued . For vnworthie is he to minister , that refuseth to obserue the orders of that Church whereof he is a Minister . Caluin himselfe was not onely suspended , but also expulsed from the ministerie at Geneua , and that for his stubborn refusing to administer the Lords Supper , according to the order of that Church b b Beza in vita Caluini . .

There is no Church vnder the Sunne , but will haue the rites & ceremonies there established , to be inuiolably kept , both of Minister and people .

Againe , the Antecedent is vntrue . For though Ministers bee not suspendable , for giuing the Sacrament vnto many that wil not examine themselues afore hand ( & why should they ? ) seeing neither Gods word , nor mans law , doth impose such a charge vpon any Minister , namely , to examin all Communicants , who are to examine themselues c c Probet se vnusquisque . 1. Cor. 11. 28. : yet some that will not themselues examine , as notorious offenders , Schismatikes , & the like d d Can. & Constitut. 26. 27. & Rubricke afore the Communion . , they are not to admit vnto the holy Communion , no more then they are to receiue the prophane Sitters ; and if they doe admit such , they are to be inquired after , and punished by the lawes of our Church e e Archb. Ban. in his visitation an. 1605. Art. 18. .

Besides , Ministers bee to admit neither ignorant ideots , nor , yong Infants , or children that cannot examine themselues . For if they do , there is punishment by our lawes appointed for them , as well as for those that allow the refractarie Sitters to participate at the holy table , though the punishment be neither the same , nor so soone inflicted .

You will say peraduenture , that the breach of the peace of the Church , is to be punished seuerely .

You know that where the offence is not small , the punishment should not be light ; and where the disobedience is great , the correction should not be small .

They breake not the peace of the Church , which cleaue fast to Gods word in euerie thing , with a meeke and quiet spirit .

You shall neuer be able to proue either your Sitting to be a cleaning fast to Gods word ; or our Kneeling to be a swaruing from the same . But I haue shewen ( which mee thinks you should see , ) how the same Kneeling is the lawful and laudable ordinance both of God and man , euen of men of God , or good men .

And therefore in mine opinion , it can be no token either of meeke spirits , highly to Sit when their brethren lowly do Kneele ; or of quiet minds obstinately to denie obedience to the orders and constitutions of a most renowmed , and reformed Church .

The peace of the Church is more broken by transgressing a manifest and substantiall precept of God , then by not obseruing a ceremonie , whose lawfulnesse is questionable ; and therefore that should bee punished more then this .

You that will not be censured by the Church , will , and here doe censure the doings of a right Christian Church : but from what spirit this doth proceede , be your self iudge .

What manifest and substantiall precept of God there is , which you say here is transgressed , you haue not yet shewen , and I would faine see . And though you can name ( as you cannot ) any such commandement broken : yet let me put you in minde , how the violating euen of the morall and substantiall precepts of God , haue sometimes , and that by God himselfe ( in mans eies and afore the world ) with lesse rigor and seueritie beene punished , then the contemptuous breach euen of ceremoniall ordinances .

For what , I pray you , was Adams eating the forbidden fruit f f Gen 3. : the Bethshemites prying into the Ark of God g g 1. Sam. 6. 19. : Vzza his touching of the same h h 2. Sam. 6. ver. 6. 7. : Vzziah his offering of incense i i 2. Chron. 26. ver. 19 , 20. : the mans gathering of stickes vpon the Sabbath day k k Num. 15. 35 : but violations , or breaches of lawes not absolutely morall in themselues , but either typical or ceremonial , and yet what sinnes were euer so punished as some of them ? what more horrible in Gods eies then all of them ?

In the new testament , touching the Supper of the Lord ( which we haue now in hand ) the Apostle saith , That whosoeuer shall eat this bread , &c. vnworthily , shall be guiltie of the body & blood of the Lord , eateth and drinketh his own damnation , &c. & procureth weaknes , sicknes and bodily death l l 1. Cor. 11. v. 27 , 29 , 30. : Now who were they in that Church , and at that time , which did eate vnworthily , and therefore were so chastised ? were they not such as transgressed , and would not obey , nor keepe the receiued orders of Gods people , and despised his Church m m Ibid. v. 21. , euen the publique place appointed for Gods worship ? Like vnto those that wil receiue Sitting , when by order established they should take the Communion Kneeling .

Wilfull & open Schismatikes do more offend the church , then either priuie heretiques which secretly vndermine the truth ; or close malefactors , whatsoeuer their transgressions be : and therefore deserue the sharper castigation . Before Kneeling by authoritie was enioined , it was lawfull for vs , and all men , to question about the lawfulnesse thereof : but being once appointed , now to refuse to bow , sauoureth not of his spirit , which said : If any man be contentious , we haue no such custome , nor the Church of God n n 1 Cor. 11. 16 .

And therefore he that shall say , how that should be more punished then this ; ( being no Prince , nor called to counsell ) passeth the limits both of discretion , and modestie , finding fault with that which he cannot iustly mislike , and ought rather with a meeke and readie minde to performe , then masterly to controll . For what are you , or I that wee should condemne the publique and allowed orders of our Church in matters indifferent , and ceremoniall ; and whose lawfulnesse , euen by your last wordes is questionable ?

OBIECTION 9. S.

IT is so doubtfull and disputable ( to say no more ) that a man can not haue faith in the doing of it . Ergo. Rom. 14. 22 , 23.

He that shall marke your words considerately , will hardly thinke that you are of mind , how it is a thing questionable , doubtfull , and disputable , whether to Kneele in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord , be lawfull or no. For you say expresly , that a man for his Kneeling cannot haue faith , and so in Kneeling sinneth : which is the worst that can bee said thereof .

Besides , you insinuate , that hauing said your worst , you could yet say more against the same , which would bee knowen .

But whatsoeuer you either thinke , or haue said , or can say , we would ye should know , that we are of mind , that our Gouernours do well , & haue Gods word for their warrant , ●n commanding vs to Kneele ; and that we do not ill , neither sinne , in obeying their commandements . For we are verely perswaded in our consciences , that we please God in kneeling ; & should sin , did we Sit , & not Kneele , as many do . For Gods word is both for the approbation of all things making for order , comelines , and edification in the Church ( of which nature we are out of doubt , and haue prooued our Kneeling is ; ) and against all disorders , and vndecent gestures , tending to the decay of godly deuotion in Christian people , as the inreuerent , I say not irreligious , Sitting at the Lords table , as at a common and prophane banquet seemeth to be and is .

Wherefore I do thus argue against you :

That , for the doing whereof a man may haue faith , is to be done .

But for his Kneeling in the receiuing the holy Supper , a man may haue faith : Therefore it is to be done , ( or we are to Kneele in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord. )

And against your Sitting , I doe thus reason , and cut you with your owne knife :

That , for the doing whereof no man among vs can haue faith , is not to be done : but for his Sitting in the receiuing the holy Supper of the Lord no man among vs can haue faith :

Therefore it is not to be done or vsed .

The proposition is your owne , or rather S. Pauls . The Assumption is iustifiable , for you haue no warrant from Gods word , nor mans law for Sitting , as we haue for Kneeling ; yea by this your Sitting a triple fault is committed . For first , Sitting at the receiuing the Lords Supper is without ground of Scripture , yea , is flat against Gods word , because it is against publique order , vndecent , and tendeth both to the nourishing of strife among brethren , and engendreth confusion among vs all .

Next , it is directly opposite to the publique ordinance of our Church .

And lastly , it is very offensiue both to the whole State , and to millions of Gods people , who like well and allow of Kneeling , and mislike of Sitting at the Supper of the Lord .

They which mislike of Kneeling in the act of receiuing , both in England , and in other reformed Churches , are neither few , nor vnlearned , nor vngodly .

Now reason you from examples , which kind of reasoning is of no validitie . Be it you haue ten thousand in this land ; and of them a thousand , neither vnlearned nor vngodly Ministers ; yet are they but priuate men against an whole State .

One singular man , bringing only the Scriptures of God for the maintenance of his opinion , is of regard , when all these are not , without Gods word , conflicting with a whole Church .

And as for Churches reformed in other places , I know there be , that like better of their owne Sitting , or Standing ( according to the fashions of their seuerall countries : a a Sta●s communicat Lugdunensis , & sedens forte qui est Cracouij . ( Iezler . de diutur . belli Euchar . p. 97. ) In other places they go and receiue it for the more expedition . ( T. C. admon . p. 84. ) ) yet cannot you name any one of them all that mislikes of our Kneeling .

Your argument from the authority of the Church is only probable , not demonstratiue , and so vnable to breed faith .

I haue proued the lawfulnes of our Kneeling , by arguments more then probable , drawne and deriued from the word of God , and so most forceable to engender faith : whereunto I will adde ( because examples do so pierce and preuaile with you ) the examples of D. Rainolds , Sparkes , M. Chaderton , and Knewstubs , who were not so wedded to their owne opinions , and other mens examples at the first , but they afterwards vpon better aduisement , and conference with most godly and worthy men , altered their minds and promised conformity , euen to all things required , b b Con●er . at Hamp . p. 98. 103. and so to this our Kneeling , whereof some of them haue left most famous and publique monuments both to their owne high praise , and credit : and the singular benefit of Gods people : to the serious and conscionable perusall whereof , and of the premises , I doe verie friendly referre you .

God reueale the truth in this controuersie , and grant it may bee embraced to his glorie , and the peace of his Church , Amen .

A good conclusion , whereunto from my heart and soule I likewise do say , Amen . So bee it .

❧ THE SECOND DIAlogue about kneeling at the holy Communion .

BETWEENE AN HVMEROVS Schismaticke , and a setled Professor .

Schis .

THE proposition which I hold , and will maintaine , is this : namely , that kneeling in the very act of taking , eating , and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion , cannot be without sinne .

Pro.

What heare I ? Cannot kneeling , no not in the verie act , I say not of eating and drinking , but of taking , eating , and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine ; and that not priuately , but publiquely ; nor prophanely , but in the holy Communion , be without sin ? what vncouth , what horrible , what hellish assertion do I heare ?

Had you said how many both men and women , may , and some doe sinne , euen in kneeling at the Lords table , and when they take , eate , and drinke the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion , you had said that which by lamentable experience we find to be too true : but that all persons whatsoeuer which receiue that holy Sacrament Kneeling , doe sinne , yea euen in kneeling cannot but sinne ; or that their said Kneeling cannot be without sinne , who can so much as thinke this without great sinne ? who can speake it without offence ? who can heare it without horror , and detestation ? From what Africke came this monster ? From what hell this error ? Name the brocher , shew the Auctor ? If thou canst doe neither of them , tell yet thy suggestions , Schismatike , which make thee to bee of this minde .

SECT. 1.

Whether Kneeling at the Communion be an institution of man , and how .

Schis .

IT is to bee vnderstood , that howsoeuer Kneeling may ( in itself considered ) be esteemed a naturall gesture of the bodie , as Standing , Sitting , &c: yet in this case it is by institution of man . For neither nature , nor custom doth teach vs ordinarily to kneele when we eate and drinke ; neither doth the word require Kneeling in this case .

Pro.

Indeed Nature teacheth vs , whether we eat , drinke , or whatsoeuer we doe , to doe all things decently , and with good maners , but prescribeth no certaine forme and maner in eating and drinking , how we are to eat , or drinke , iudging all drinking and eating to be commendably , which is ciuilly done . And the God of Nature will haue all things in his church decently , & in order performed , not setting down a maner how , but leauing the determination of formes to the discretion of his people ; as deeming all things to bee commendably , which are comely and orderly done in his Church .

As then whatsoeuer the maner is of our eating and drinking commonly in priuate houses , and taking our corporall repast , if it be ciuilly taken , is by the direction of Nature her selfe : euen so whatsoeuer the forme and maner of our taking , eating and receiuing the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion , is , if it be orderly taken and decently done , is from God and his word .

Albeit therefore neither Nature enioineth vs to Kneele , no more then to Sit or Stand , when we eate and drinke ; nor the word or holy Scripture , to Kneele , no more then to Stand or Sit when we receiue the Sacrament : yet , as our common eating and drinking according to the laudable customs of our country where we liue , is from Nature though instituted by man , or made vsuall by custome ; euen so our Kneeling in eating and drinking the sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion , is from the word of God originally , though instituted by man , inasmuch as God is the fountaine of all decent orders in his Church , as after God Nature is the author of all ciuilitie & good maners among men in the world .

Thinke not then how Kneeling at the Communion is by Institution of man , or meerely from man , not required by the word . For both man appointeth , and God approueth ; and by authoritie from God man appointeth , and by the ministerie of man God approueth our Kneeling . And so our said Kneeling is not so much the institution of man , as of God , and required in his word .

So that in Kneeling , though sometimes , and some people may , yet alwayes , and all persons do not sinne , yea all Communicants , if otherwise they offend not , doe serue and please God by kneeling .

SECT. 2.

Whether Kneeling be vsed without all respect of reuerence vnto God , in the Church of England .

Schis .

IF it be by institution , it must be either in respect of a more reuerend receiuing , or not .

Pro.

Of all reuerend maners of receiuing the holy Sacrament , Kneeling is the most reuerend ; and so , and none otherwise instituted , and vsed by vs of the reformed Church in England .

Schis .

But if the most solemne signe of reuerence ( vsed in these parts of the world ) be without al respect of reuerence , and that by institution of authority in so high a part of Gods seruice , may not such Kneeling be iudged , if not a grosse Mat. 27. 29. mocking of Christ , as was the souldiers bowing of Knees before him , yet a taking of the name of God in vain , seeing all significations of honor in Gods seruice , ought to be to the honor of his name ; & an oath not religiously intended ( as in Mal. 1. 6. 7. the nature thereof it ought to be ) to the houour of God , is Iere. 4. 2. the taking of Gods name in vaine ?

Pro.

Is kneeling at the communion a signe , a solemne , yea the most solemne signe of reuerence vsed in these parts of the world , by your owne confession ; and may not , yea cannot that solemne , that most solemne signe of reuerence at the receiuing of bread and wine at the Communion be expressed without sinne ? which is your proposition ?

Who obseruing & beleeuing these your words , which are most true , but will fall into a loathing of the said assertion .

But your said proposition is not more odious , then your saying ( that the most solemne kind of reuerence vsed in these parts of the world , is without all respect of reuerence , and that by institution of authoritie ) is false and slanderous . For neither do all Churches in these parts of the world , either vse to kneele , or kneele without all respect of reuerence , by institution of authoritie ; neither if some doe kneele without such respect , and that by institution of authoritie , be all churches to be charged , and blamed for this fault , but least of all the Church of England , where this signe , this solemne , this most solemn signe , with all possible respect of reuerence is giuen to God , and that by institution of authoritie .

Where therefore this signe of reuerence is without all respect of reuerence giuen , and that by institution of authoritie in so high a part of Gods seruice , Kneeling there may rightly be iudged both a grosse mocking of Christ , as was the souldiers their bowing of Knees before him ; and is the taking of the name God in vaine .

But what is this to our Kneeling here in England at the participation of the blessed Sacrament , where all things are by authoritie enioined to be done , both respectiuely , reuerently , and with due deuotion , voide of superstition ?

Schis .

Did Naaman newly brought to the knowledge of 2. Kin. 6. 11. God , attribute so much to the bowing in the house of Rimmon , when his master leaned on him , so that it was not his voluntarie action ; and shall we , who haue had the Gospel long , Kneeling by institution , and determination , in a principal part of Gods seruice , make no account whether we honor God , or no , by Kneeling ?

Pro.

Naaman the Assyrian , neither voluntarily would , nor forcible could be drawne to commit Idolatrie : whose example may teach vs all , ( whether old Professors , or new Conuerts ) to keepe our selues free from all Idolatrous pollutions .

Naaman after his conuersion came ( if he did come ) into the house of Rimmon , and bowed ( as wee come into our Churches and Kneele , ) but yet neither be our Churches as the house of Rimmon , neither bow wee so much as before Idols , much lesse idolatrously , when we participate of the sacred mysteries .

And though by institution and determination of the Church when we take , eate , and drinke , we Kneele : yet by our said kneeling we doe honor God in this principall part of his seruice ; your selfe hath acknowledged the gesture of Kneeling to be the most solemne signe of reuerence , we do say the same .

SECT. 3.

Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a wil-worship .

Schis .

IF Kneeling be instituted for a more reuerent receiuing , then it must be either in regard of God , or of bread and wine .

Pro.

Not of bread and wine .

Sch.

If in regard of God , then must we be wel perswaded that such kneeling is an acceptable seruice vnto his maiestie .

Pro.

We are so perswaded , or ought so to be , els in Kneelieg Rom. 14. 23. we sinne , yea , as you say , it cannot be without sinne . For whatsoeuer is not of faith , is sinne .

Schis .

That this may be , we must consider , whether such Kneeling be a wil worship , or a seruice reasonable , and according Rom. 12. 2. & 14. 5. 23. Isa. 29. 13. Mat. 15. 9. Leuit. 10. 2 , 3 1. Chr. 13. 10. & 15. 12 , 13 , to Gods will , lest otherwise we find ourselues so farre from honoring God , as that we prouoke him : as did Nadab & Abihu , who offered incense , but not the verie fire which God appointed , & were therfore deuoured with fire . And as did king Dauid , and the Priests , who caried the Arke otherwise then it ought to haue beene , and therefore Vzza died for it with a sodaine death . For God will be sanctified ( if not by , yet ) in all them that come neere him .

Pro.

Our kneeling is no will worship , but a seruice reasonble , & according to Gods will , as be all the ecclesiasticall ordinances whatsoeuer , not besides or contrarie to the reuealed will of God .

Such constitutions I call not humane tradition ( saith Bullinger ) Bulling. Dec. 2. Ser. 1. because they are deriued from the diuine Scripture , not deuised in the braine of man , and vsed of her ( viz. the Church ) which hearkneth vnto the voice of her only shepheard , acknowledging not the voice of others . For example , the Church commeth together to heare Gods word , & vnto publique praiers , both in the morning & euening at appointed houres , as is commodious for euery place & people : and that is in stead of a law ( Againe ) the Church hath supplications , holy-dayes , and ( publque ) fasts vnder certaine lawes . The Church ( moreouer ) at certaine times , in a certain place , and prescribed maner celebrateth the sacraments , & that according to the lawes , and receiued custome of the Church . The Chuch ( likewise ) baptizeth infants , remoueth not women from the Lords Supper : and this she hath for a law . By her deputed Iudges the Church determineth in causes matrimoniall , and in these things hath certaine lawes . But all these & other like these she draweth from the ( general ) scriptures , and for edification sake applieth them to places , times , and persons , whereby wee may indeed behold in sundrie Churches a diuersitie ( of formes ) but no discord at all . So that worthy man .

And agreeably hereunto the Church of Sweathland : Quae cum Scriptura consonant : those constitutions which agree with Confes S●●uica , in Har. confes . §. 17. p. 290. the Scripture , & be ordained for the bettering of maners & benefite of mankind , albeit according to the verie word , they be not expressed in the Scriptures : yet in as much as they proceede from the ( generall ) precept of Loue , which hath ordained all things in most comely order , they deserue to be esteemed diuine , rather then humane constitutions , &c. Many such truly the Church doth lawfully obserue at this day , and as occasion also is ministred appointeth new , which whoso shall reiect ( the words are memorable , ) he doth despise the authority not of men , but of God , whose tradition it is , whatsoeuer is commodious ▪ And so they ( whose words haue passed vncensured by the publishers of the Harmonie of the Churches confessions . )

If you then can shew no word of God to the contrarie , we cannot but hold the order for Kneeling to bee the ordinance of God .

And therefore the example by you cited of Nadab , Abihu , and Vzza , trouble not vs , who conscionably do Kneele , and keepe the orders of a most reformed Church : but may pierce your heart , and the rest of our new Recusants , the separated brotherhood , who obstinately despise , and violate the ordinances of our Church ; allowed , because no where disallowed in the booke of God .

SECT. 4.

Whether Christ his example in euerie thing at the ministration of the Communion , is necessarily to be followed .

Schis .

BVt Kneeling is contrarie to the example of Christ and his Apostles .

Pro.

Well may kneeling differ , but surely it is contrarie to none example of theirs .

Schis .

They ministred , and receiued Sitting , or in such a Luk. 22 ▪ 14. 1. Cor. 11. 1. gesture , as in those Countries was most vsed at eating .

Pro.

The truth is , you cannot directly say , how the Lords supper was ministred or receiued in Christ and his Apostles daies , and therefore you say how by them it was ministred and receiued Sitting .

Schis .

From his example to differ without warrant from Gods word , cannot be without fault .

Pro.

Nay rather to bind vs necessarily to the example of Christ in all ceremoniall matters , without warrant from Gods word , cannot be without great offence .

Schis .

Examples of holy men , much more of Christ , are to be followed , except there be some reasonable cause to the contrarie .

Pro.

True .

Schis .

The Apostle to reforme an abuse which crept ( euen in their times ) into Loue feasts , which were immediatly before , or after the Lords Supper , did banish them thence , and reduced the maner of administring the Lords Supper to the first institution , saying , Shall I praise you in this ? I praise 1. Cor. 11. 22. 23. you not . For I haue receiued of the Lord , which I haue also deliuered vnto you .

Pro.

The Loue-feasts , abused by the Corinthians , were spoken against by the Apostle , not because they were feasts , or feasts of Loue , made after , or before the receiuing the Communion , but for that they were abused ; neither for their abuse were they quite banished out of the Church , as you vntruly say , but onely blamed , and yet continued in the Church of God .

A fitter example could you not bring forth then this of Loue feasts . For neuer did Christ ( to whose example in celebrating of his Supper you would precisely bind vs ) institute , and minister the said Supper , either after , or before such a feast , as did the Churches in the Apostles times , and that commendably .

This sheweth how things of themselues indifferent , and tending vnto edification , may be added without sinne vnto the sacred Supper ; and being added , through mans corruption abused , may be reduced notwithstanding to their first and laudable institution , & continued in Gods church , as were the Loue feasts .

Schis .

Nay hereby it is apparent , that that forme of administration which differeth from the first institution , is worthy no praise , and therefore no acceptable seruice of God .

Pro.

Not so apparent as you weene .

The Apostle blamed the Corinthians ( as I haue told you ) not for their Loue feasts ( a forme among them of administring the Lords Supper ) but for their abusing them to the dishonour of God , and offence of the world . Which feasts afore they were abused were well allowed , & counted both worthie of praise , & an acceptable seruice of God , differing but not contrarie to his will ▪ Which may tell and teach you : First , how the Church is not alwayes and strictly bound to one and the same forme of administring the holy Supper .

Next , that what Christ did , and what he said , and instituted is to be considered : and that what hee instituted is alwayes and necessarily to bee done , but not what he did . For his actions serue for our instruction alwayes , but not for our imitation euer : his institutions bee iniunctions : his deedes personall , and circumstantiall : his precepts substantiall : his actions for a great part accessorie , and arbitrarie ; his iniunctions euermore necessarie . Hence blame we the Papists for denying the Cup vnto the common people ; and the Artotorites for adding Cheese to the Lords Supper , contrarie to the institution of Christ : but we blame neither the Corinthians , and primitiue Church of old , nor the reformed Churches in these dayes , for swaruing from the forme of Christs ministring the Sacrament in certaine ceremoniall , indifferent , accidentall , and circumstantiall points , whom we should and would blame , were their administring ( how differing soeuer from the forme of Christ his celebrating ) the holy Supper , a seruice displeasing , and not acceptable to God .

And here the wisdome of our Lord & Sauiour sheweth it selfe most admirable , who hauing prescribed and instituted what hee would haue done ; hath not prescribed yet the forme and manner how hee would haue the Sacraments administred , enioyning generall things , as Take , Eate , Drinke , &c. but leauing the speciall maner of taking and receiuing the bread and wine vnto the libertie and discretion of his elected spouse ; thinking that praise ▪ worthy , and acceptable vnto his holinesse , whatsoeuer in this matter is formally , decently , and to the edification of his church and children , done and performed .

Schis .

If the Apostle would not tolerate an indifferent thing ( as was a Loue feast till then ) to continue so neere the Lords Supper when it was abused , how would they allow the change of Sitting into Kneeling , especially in these two considerations ?

Pro.

Saint Paul was not of your mind , who cannot brooke but doe condemne whatsoeuer vnto Idolatrie , or sinne hath beene abused . Therefore did hee and his brethren the Apostles continue these Loue feasts , whose reformation they sought after they were abused , neuer counting them because they were abused by some persons , to bee vtterlie , and euer afterward to bee vnlawfull , and for no vse in Gods Church . Hence the Apostles , Peter , and 2. Pet. 2. 13. Iude ver. 12. Iude , speake of Loue feasts in vse in their time , without condemning them for their abuse ; and Tertullian reporteth how they were frequent in his dayes ; and yet euer abused by some ill disposed persons or other . In Aprlog . ●●9 .

And therefore that the said Apostle would both lesse allow of , and more condemne Kneeling , which neuer was so abused in our Church as were the Loue feasts in the primitiue Church , and especially at Corinth , is verie vnprobable , I may say vnpossible to be true . But because you are of mind that for two considerations the Apostles would condemne them , conceale not your reasons , that they may bee considered of .

SECT. 5.

Whether our Kneeling be Popish and Idolatrous .

Schis .

FIrst the abuse of Loue feasts ( viz. superfluity ) was neuer so great , and scandalous in the Apostles times , as the abuse of Kneeling ( viz. Idolatrie ) was , and is in the Synagogue of Rome .

Pro.

It is well that you grant Loue feasts , and Kneeling to be of one and the same nature , and of themselues indifferent . For you confesse they haue all beene abused ; and so implie that good vse was made both of Kneeling , and of Loue feasts afore they were abused : but neither could they bee vsed well at the first , or abused afterward , had they or either of them simplie beene ill , and so vnlawfull .

That as Loue feasts , so Kneeling at the receiuing the holy Communion and blessed Sacrament hath bin abused , the whole world doth know , and may not be denied .

Let it also be granted ( which is most true ) that the abuse of Loue feasts was neuer so great , and scandalous in the Apostles times , as the abuse of Kneeling was , & is in the Synagogue of Rome : But what make you of all this ? May wee not therfore Kneele at any time , or in any reformed Church when we receiue the Communion , because there was , and is such abuse of Kneeling in the Synagogue of Rome ? And if we in our Churches do Kneele , is our offence greater then the abuse of Loue feasts ? or cannot that same thing be vsed without sinne or offence at one time and place , which is abused in another ? or well vsed , and to Gods glory by some persons , which impiously and to the high dishonor of God is prophaned by others ?

Kneeling in the verie act of receiuing , I confesse , of some hypocrites in our reformed Churches may be abused , as were the Loue feasts in the Apostles dayes ; but so grosly ; generally , and scandalously , as were either the Loue feasts in the primitiue Church , or is Kneeling in the Synagogue of Rome , me thinks you should blush to say , sure I am , you shall neuer proue .

You say Loue feasts were by superfluitie ( I adde by sursetting also , drunkennesse , pride , vain-glorie , contempt of the poore Christians : ) Kneeling also among the Papists vnto Idolatrie ( a most horrible sinne ) and superstition is abused : but so many wayes , in so open sort , so impiously is Kneeling abused in no Church reformed .

Loue feasts by many , and that openly were abused by bad 2. Pet. 2. 13. Iud. ver. 8. Christians , who at those Loue feasts were as blots and spots , but was not the fault of the whole Church Christian ; Kneeling at the Masse is the sinne of all Caco-catholiques , yea and of their whole Church : but if Kneeling among vs in or any other Church is abused , the blame is to be laid neither vpon the whole Church , but vpon some particular professors ; neither is it an open and publique scandall , at least not alwayes , nor euery where , but an hidden sinne of some fewe hypocrites .

Schis .

Loue feasts were either before , or after the Supper , wheras Kneeling is in the principall part of the holy Communion .

Pro.

Whether these feasts of Loue were celebrated afore or after the holy Communion it is vncertaine , and not materiall . The most Diuines notwithstanding doe thinke , that after ; but whether afore or after , they went together , the Loue feasts with the holy Sacrament , the Sacrament not without the Loue feasts .

It is generally held , that among the Iewes there was a yerely Beza in Luc. 22. 20. Caluin ▪ in 1. Cor. 11. 21. custom , when they did eat their Paschal Lamb , to adioine vnto that Sacrament a ceremoniall eating of bread , and drinking of wine . In imitation of these Iewes , and Banquets , Beza in Act. 2. 42. the first Christians at the administration of the holy Sacrament , made feasts called Agaps , or banquets of charitie .

The Iewes for their feasting after the Passeouer , had neither the president of Moses , nor the precept of God : nor the Christians any either president , or commandement of Christ for the Loue feasts . Caluin . in Math. 26. 26. Conference at Hampt . p. 68. Beza in 2. Pet 2. 13. & in lud. 12. Tertul. in Apolog. c. 39.

Those Suppers and feasts of the Iewes notwithstanding were so liked of Christ , as he made of those Suppers the Sacrament of his bodie and blood . And Christians in the Primitiue Church termed their Agapas their feasts of charitie , the Supper of the Lord , Sacra conuiuia , sacra ecclesiastici coetus conuiuia , yea the Supper of the Lord .

Who obseruing this , but must confesse that God doth not , as you Schimatike doe , condemne all Rites and Ceremonies about the Sacrament , which himselfe hath not instituted ; and they therefore are much out of the way , which condemne euerie thing instituted by man about the worship of God , though neuer so orderly established , and decent , euen for none other cause but for that God hath not expressedly appointed the forme in his holy word . Whence our kneeling is so condemned , and that the more because it is to bee done in the principall part of the holy Communion .

But , sir , if Kneeling bee as it is , and you haue truly confessed , the most solemne signe of reuerence , when I pray you , is it better to shew this signe then at the receite of the Sacrament of our redemption by the bodie and blood of Christ , signified by bread and wine , and the most principall of all outward worship which we can performe vnto God ?

Schis .

If the Apostle banished Loue feasts from the Lords Supper , and brought the Church to the simplicitie of the first institution , is it not a tempting sinne to retaine the Idolatrous Kneeling of Papists , & reiect the exemplarie Sitting of our master Christ ?

Pro.

Not too fast . It is not granted that the Apostles Loue feasts , either because they were of mans institution , or by vngodly persons abused vnto sinne , were banished .

Those feasts growing to abuse , the Apostle seeketh to amend , Caluin in 1. Cor. 11. 21. Beza in 2. Pet. 2. 13. & in Iud. v. 12. saith Caluin , to correct , saith Beza : but neither Caluin , nor Beza , nor any other Diuine ancient or neotericall doth say , that the Apostle for their abuse , did either banish or abolish them .

But were they banished : yet were they afterwards and soone called home againe from banishment , and receiued into grace : Antiquitie beareth witnesse of the vse , euen the good vse of them in , and after the Apostles dayes , which afore had beene abused .

Whence learne we either not to banish things for their abuse , but to amend them ; or if we banish , to take them into fauour againe when they be reformed , but neuer vtterly to condemne them as vnlawfull , onely because they haue been abused .

In imitation therefore of the Apostles , and other holy Fathers of the first , & best Churches , by vsing such things well ( and namely Kneeling at the receit of the sacred bread and wine ) which had beene abused , if you iudge vs to do il , your sinne is great ; and the more if you suppose the reforming of the said Kneeling , and applying it to good and holy vse , to be a retaining of the Idolatrous Kneeling of the Papists , and a tempting sinne .

And though we follow not the speciall gesture of our Sauiour , and his Disciples in taking the sacramentall signes : yet reiect we not his example as ill , but like of ours , as in our iudgement more meete and conuenient for the times and countrey wherein we do liue and reside .

When you do proue our Communion to bee a Masse , I will confesse our said Kneeling to be Popish , yea , Idolatrie : and so we in Kneeling to commit a tempting sinne : which you know , and I dare say , you shall neuer doe .

Schis .

How can we imagine Christ to be honoured by Kneeling , we kneeling in that Sacrament , and in that part of 1. Cor. 10. 17. the Sacrament , which especially setteth forth our Communion with Christ and his Church , and is therefore called the Communion ?

Pro.

I had almost gathered from your speech , that baptisme is no Sacrament of our Communion with Christ , and his Church , but marking the word , Especially , I see that Baptisme is acknowledged to be a Sacrament thereof as well as the Lords Supper .

But , I pray you , is it a sinne , yea , atempting sinne for any Math. 3. 6. Acts 8. 12. 10. 47. 48. 16. 33. to be baptized Kneeling ? When Iohn baptized in Iordan ; Philip at Samaria : Peter at Cesarea : Paul at Philippos : these and the rest of the Apostles in other places , did none which receiued the Sacrament , Kneele ? Can you say they did not ; dare you affirme they might not without sinne ? Or in these dayes , in no Church and place , may no conuerted Iew , Turke , or Pagan , renouncing his or their impieties , and false worshippings , embracing the Gospel , and desirous to be incorporated and baptized into the same bodie with vs , may not these , I say , nor any of these without sinne , yea a tempting sinne receiue these fauours from God , and his Church , and be baptized Kneeling ? And if some that can , may receiue that Sacrament Kneeling , may none yet participate of the heauenly graces offered especially in the Lords Supper to all worthie Communicants , Kneeling ? And if in the special Sacrament of our Communion they may : yet may they not Kneele in that part of the Sacrament , which especially setteth forth our Communion with Christ ? And if they so doe , thereby tempt they and prouoke they God to plague them , euen for their verie Kneeling , though neuer so reuerently , and with all possible Faith , charitie , and pietie done , and performed ? O strange diuinitie !

No Sacrament , yea nothing so placeth before the eyes of our soules , either the wrath and iustice of God vpon man for sinne , or his Philanthropie , his tender & incomprehensible loue towards makind in his Sonne Christ Iesus , as the externall elements of bread & wine consecrated at the holy Supper do ; nor doth any part of the same Supper so affect the minds of the truly zealous and Christian , as the exhibiting before their eies , and putting into their hands the pledges of Gods pacification through Christ , the tokens of our atonement with God . And therefore is no Sacrament so reuerently to be receiued as the Lords supper on our part ; nor any part of the same Supper to bee performed with like ceremonies of zeale and deuotion , as the verie taking and receiuing the bread and wine , neither can wee so expresse and testifie the same reuerence , as by Kneeling . Your selfe afore saide ( then which you neuer spake truer words ) how the most solemne signe of reuerence is Kneeling .

The Sacrament is called , you say , The Communion ; be Luke 22. 29. 1. Cor. 11. 26. it so . It is likewise called , The new Testament , and of the Fathers , The Sacrament Eucharisticall , or of Thanksgiuing : and can we better manifest our thankfull hearts vnto our heauenly father , then on bended knees ? And can there be no Communion , euen at the Communion , if we Kneele ? Doth the externall either Kneeling , Sitting , or Standing , further or hinder our Communion betweene Christ and his Church ?

These things dulie considered , we ought not to imagine , but that Christ aswell is honoured and better , by Kneeling in the act of receiuing , then by any other site or gesture of bodie whatsoeuer .

Schis .

That cannot be , seeing it swarueth not onely from his example , but also from the practise of all reformed churches , Concert . eccles. Cathol. in Arg. except in England , which the Papists themselues call Puritano-papisticall , by retaining this , and other Popish corruptions .

Pro.

The swaruing from the example of Christ is no strong and true Argument that wee dishonour God in so doing . For if that were true , no Curch should bee pure from dishonouring God . You cannot name a Church or companie of Christians in the whole world , which in the ministring and receiuing the Supper of the Lord , varieth not from Christ his example , and that manifoldly ; which yet in their ministrations doe honour God .

If England herein doe swarue from all reformed Churches , will you therefore conclude that the Church of England onely doth dishonour God ?

We condemne not other Churches for their not Kneeling ; neither doth any Church , nor should you Schismatikes condemne ours for our Kneeling .

And yet false is it that we Christians in England onely , T. C. admon . to the Peo . of England , p. 84 M. Couerdale of the order of administration the Lords supper , E. 8. ● . when we communicate , do Kneele . For all the Churches in Basill , Saxonie , Denmarke , and many in Germanie , by the orders of their seuerall Churches at the Communion , as well as wee in England , doe kneele . Either therefore those Churches be not in the number of Churches reformed in your iudgement ; or they dishonour God by their said Kneeling , so well as wee : the former of which you will not , I thinke , say , and if you should , all Gods faithfull seruants thorowout the world will condemne you for your headie and vncharitable iudgement ; the latter you should not without blushing affirme , and wee are so farre from imagining that thereby wee dishonour God , as wee are of minde that God is by no externall site or gesture of bodie , at the Communion , so honoured as by Kneeling .

What the Papists thinke of , and terme the Church of England , wee are not ignorant , neither doe regard . But how Popish they thinke our Kneeling at the holie W. Rainolds of the Sacrament , c. 3. p. 100. c. 10. p. 233. c. 3. p. 103. Communion to bee , iudge by their wordes , expressing their thoughts of the holy Supper , which they terme A peeuish Supper , fitter for Pagans than Christians , more meete for dogges then men , proceeding directly from the Diuell . Can any man thinke our kneeling to bee a Popish corruption , either hearing these things , or reading them either in Popish writings , or truly cited out of Popish bookes ?

They abhorre our bread and wine , as Schismaticall , as hereticall , as leading the high way to Gods wrath and indignation , ●bid . c. 11. p. 242. to hell & damnation . It is no Popish corruption which they so abhorre , much lesse abhorre they our Kneeling as Popish ; yea , they abhorre it because it is not Popish . They are simple and verie strangers from the Papists opinions of our Church , and her ceremonies , which so thinke and speake .

Schis .

Such Kneeling may be an argument ( especially to a Papist , not vnderstanding our tongue ) that we haue Communion with Antichrist , and his Synagogue , at least in the Idolatrie of bread-worship , which our failng , or carelesnesse to auow our Communion with Christ and his Church , and not abhorring all Communion with Antichrist , and his Synagogue , cannot be without grieuous sinne .

Pro.

If what last I said be true , as no right Papist ( whether he vnderstand our tongue , or not ) cannot bee doubtfull of , our Kneeling cannot possiblie bee any Argument of Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue in Idolatrie .

Besides , what Papist is there but knoweth that the bread & wine at the Altar once consecrated , by their doctrine , are Concil. Trid. ses . 13. can. 2. 6. transubstantiated forthwith into the verie bodie and blood of Christ ; and being so transubstantiated , by and by , as the onely begotten Sonne of God , both of Priest and people , vnder the paine of the Pope his curse , with diuine honour and worship , to be adored ?

To haue these thoughts , and to exhibit this adoration vnto the elements , this is to communicate with Antichrist , and his Synagogue ; but our reuerend and humble Kneeling at the taking and receiuing the bread & wine in a thankfull remembrance of the death of Christ , and of all the benefits we are partakers of by his passion , & that without althought or shew of adoring the bread and wine : this is no communicating with Antichrist , & his Synagogue . Hauing these cogitations , though we Kneele , wee haue Communion with Christ and his Church , and hauing not these thoughts , wee haue no Communion at all with his Church , though wee Sit and Kneele not .

As therefore it is not the Kneeling , but the impious conceits wherewith their hearts bee possessed and replenished , when they approch to the Sacrament , that maketh the Papists to be Idolaters : so neither doth our Kneeling exclude vs from all Communion with Christ , and his Church ; nor your Sitting , that ioyneth you in fellowship with the same .

As grosse Idolatrie may you commit in not Kneeling , as any persons euer did , or as the Papists now doe in Kneeling . But we charge not you , as you do vs ( yet very vncharitably ) whose part were rather to conceiue better of them , whose doctrine in the most principal points of Religion , about the Sacrament especially , is one and the same with yours ( light being not more contrarie to darknesse , nor heauen to hell ▪ then what both ye which Sit , and wee which Kneele , doe hold therein , is opposite and contrarie to the doctrine of the Synagogue of Rome .

Wherefore as we say not that yee , differing from vs that Kneele , haue no Communion with Christ and his church , because ye Sit ; and doe commit a grieuous sinne ( did yee not offend against publique order ) for that with vs yee Kneele not : no more should ye haue so much as an imagination , that we haue Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue , because wee Kneele , and doe commit a grieuous sinne , for that with you we Sit not when wee doe receiue , especially seeing God doth not forbid , and Christian authoritie commandeth vs to Kneele .

Sittng & kneeling are but outward ceremonies , nothing to the substance of Religion , concerning the true communion with Christ and his Church at all , and of themselues indifferent , did not the godly Magistrate enioine the one , and prohibit the other .

Finally , as you which Sit , and we which Kneele differ in ceremonies , but not in the maine points of doctrine , and in this latter respect hold communion all of vs with Christ , and his Church , at least in externall profession : so we which agree with the Church of Rome in some Ceremonies , disagree from the same in most materiall points of doctrine , and substance of true religion , haue no fellowship at all , or communion with the Synagogue of Antichrist . For it is not the same Ceremonies , but the same profession of faith and doctrine that causeth the communion .

Schis .

If we may Kneele , then did Paul sinne , when hee Gal. 2. 11 , 12. rebuked Peter for not holding Communion with the Gentiles conuerted .

Pro.

This is no good consequent : If wee sinne not in Kneeling , Paul must sin in rebuking Peter for not holding communion with the Gentiles conuerted .

No , sir , neither do we sinne in kneeling , nor did Paul sinne Act. 10. in rebuking Peter .

For that Paul had iust cause , and performed the part of a faithfull and worthie Apostle of Christ in rebuking Peter , the Scripture beareth witnesse , which telleth vs , first that to Peter it was reuealed , as to a man so notable , that hee might conuerse with the Gentiles conuerted vnto Christ : next that Peter had consented vnto the ordinances of the Acts 15. Apostles at Ierusalem , namely , in discharging the Gentiles from the yoake of Iewish Ceremonies : Thirdlie , that Peter notwithstanding ( contrarie to the vision of the Lord , and decrees of the Apostles ) not onely sequestred himselfe suddainly from the fellowship of the Gentiles professing Christ ; but also ioined with the Iewes , thereby , against his conscience , both confirming the blind Iewes in their erroneous conceits touching the lawe of Moses , and making the Gentiles to stand in doubt what they should do ; so offending both God and good men , & drawing other Christians into the same sins through his halting and dissimulation . And therefore well might , and both rightly was Peter blamed of the Apostle Saint Paul .

But what Communion haue we that Kneele with Peters sinne , or yee with Pauls vertues that reproue vs for kneeling ?

Haue we either by reuelation beene told , that wee may not Kneele , as Peter was that hee might conuerse with the Gentiles ? or haue wee at any Synod , or lawfull Councell , set Gods people free from the obseruation of all ecclefiastical constitutions , especially vsed , or abused rather in the Church of Rome , as in the Councell at Ierusalem with other Peter discharged the Gentiles from the bondage of the Mosaicall ceremonies ? Or finally , haue wee abandoned at anie time all Communion , euen in Ceremonies , with the Synagogue of Rome , & yet to gratifie , or rather to harden them in their superstition , entertained them againe , and against our certaine knowledge , and conscience , as Peter did the lawes of Ceremonies by leauing the societie of the Gentiles , to the hie offence of Paul , and such as ●uly feared God ?

If these nor any of these faults appeare in vs , which were not obscurely in Peter , surely though Paul did not sinne in reprouing Peter , yet doe you and the like Censurers verie ill in reprouing vs like Pauls , seeing in vs ▪ there be none of the vices , and visible faults of Peter .

Paul therefore might well blame Peter for halting , when you cannot without blame , and shame too reproue vs for kneeling .

Schis .

If we sinne not in kneeling , Paul wrote without warrant , when he said , If any lust to be contentious , we haue no 1. Cor. 11. 16. such custome neither the Churches of God .

Pro.

These words of S. Paul when I consider , me thinks I see the holy Apostle looking sowrly , and speaking sharply ; but against whom ? Against peaceable men ? No , but against Vt quisque est vir optimus , ita est m●xim● amans ordinis : The best man loues order best . contentious persons . And whom deeming contentious ? Orderly men , conforming themselues to the lawfull and approued constitutions of the Church ? No , but against such as would not yeeld obedience vnto such decrees , but thought themselues free from all obedience vnto publique orders of the Church : which kind of men the Apostle loathed euen from his soule ; and others inspired with the holie spirit , haue termed such persons men vnmeet to liue , or haue 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . societie with men in this life . The Anabaptists were such kind of men , saith Peter Martyr ; and wee know the same to Pet. Martyr . in 1. Cor. 11. 16. be the fault both of our home or exiled Brownists , and of all you Sectaries , who will giue none obedience to the impositions and institutions of the church , at least but to what you list ( how orderly soeuer established , and making neuer so well to edification and order . )

As therefore , hearing that some men in the Church , euen of meere frowardnesse , and for none other cause , would not yeeld that either their wiues , daughters , or other women should be couered , or themselues vncouered , though the Church had decreed they should ; because to be couered , or not couered , was a thing indifferent , and they would not be brought into bondage about such matters by any power of the Church , when God had giuen no such expresse and particular commandement , the Apostle doth very roundly and angerly here take vp such men .

So me thinkes you , and all others , walking in the verie steppes of those ancient perturbers of the Churches quiet , should take these wordes as truely , and seuerely to be spoken against you , as euer they were against the contemners of Apostolicall , and Ecclesiasticall authority in Saint Pauls time .

Sure I am the meditation of these things addeth both comfort and encouragement vnto vs , which orderly doe Kneele , and in Kneeling keepe orders ; but how they should alter our minds from performing this obedience , being vttered euen by the chiefe masters and makers of order , and for continuance of good orders in the Church , he must be sharpe sighted that can perceiue .

Wherefore the words touch not vs at all that kneele , but you that will not kneele : neither sinned the Apostle in writing , but you in wresting those words to the nourishment of contention , which hee penned for the continuance and increase of peace among the people of God .

Schis .

The same Apostle to the same effect : What Communion ( saith he ) hath Christ with Belial ? either must Saint Paul vtter this without warrant , or in kneeling wee doe 2. Cor. 6. 16. grieuously sinne .

Pro.

But if neither wee sinne in kneeling , nor the Apostle in writing of those words , what is to be thought of you that so charge the Apostle and vs ?

That wee sinne not in Kneeling hath beene demonstrated sufficientlie before , by our not communicating thereby with Antichrist , though we doe kneele . And therefore your fault must be hainous in an high degree , in charging the Apostle to haue written without warrant , then with a greater reproach was neuer , nor could euer be laid vpon the writings of S. Paul .

What communion hath Christ with Belial , saith Saint Paul ; the same , what communion hath Christ with Belial , saith Gods Church ? What is Belial , but one without Belial . yoake , without law ? meant principallie of Sathan , the author , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . and father of all disobedience , misrule , and disorders . Hence is sinne named anomie , as who saies , a thing lawlesse , 1. Tim. 1. 9. Iudg. 19. 22. without rule : and sinners in Gods ●ies be as disordered , and lawlesse men , whom neither Gods word nor mans law can rule or make obedient . Hence the Beniamites 1. Sam. 2. 12. which defloured the Leuits wife , and the Prophet Helies children are called the Sonnes , or men of Belial . Hence the Papistes abroad , whose chiefest religon is , mans tradition , and Schismatikes at home , the authors , and abettors of confusion in the Church , be Belials sonnes .

Christ hath no communion with Belial ; nor Christians with the sonnes of Belial , either the idolatrous Papists , or the lawlesse Schismatikes : these hauing separated themselues from vs , because of our orderly Kneeling , and obedience : wee hauing seuered our selues from the other , for their manifest impieties .

Schis .

Come out , and touch no vncleane thing , are the 2. Cor. 6. 16. 17. wordes of the Apostle , which either he wrote without warrant , or we must sinne in Kneeling .

Pro.

God bee thanked , we haue fulfiled the Apostles words , we are come out , wee haue left Babylon : and next , we doe as little touch , tast , or see any idolatrous pollutions , or haue communion with that which is vncleane , in our Kneeling , as you or any others ( in your owne opinion neuer so pure , and reformed ) haue either in Sitting , bowing or Standing , by which sites of body , idolatrie hath beene , and is committed , as well as by Kneeling .

They which onely , and alwaies commit idolatrie , bee not they which Kneele , for then neuer should we Kneele but wee commit idolatrie : and neuer should any commit idolatrie , but such as Kneele : both which to bee false , our experience doth tell vs , who find that both the most religious , Relat. of the west Churches . most deuout doe Kneele when they serue their God ; and the most idolatrous and superstitious ( the Papistes only excepted ) do neuer Kneele at their chiefest exercises of their deuotions .

Thinke therefore iudiciously of our Kneeling as it deserueth , and neither condemne any men for Kneeling , if they so do , not idolatrouslie , or superstitiouslie ; nor appooue them which Kneele , if thereby they dishonour God . Blame the Papists , who by their Kneeling , doe the greatest idolatrie that can bee : but blame not vs , which most sincerely thereby do serue God ; Christ not being more opposite to Belial , than is the Popish masse to our Communion , and the manner of administration of the same ; albeit both the Papists , and we of the Church of England in receiuing ; they of their Masse , we of the Communion , in kneeling be like .

Schis .

Doth not God straightly forbid vs to serue him , as idolaters doe their Gods ?

Pro.

You know , or should not be ignorant , how God had Deut. 11. 30. 31. prescribed vnto his people the Israelites , a certaine forme , and manner , how he would of them be worshipped , whereunto whosoeuer should adde , or any thing take , or varie from the same , hee was liable to Gods heauie wrath and Deut. 4. 14. 15. &c. 12. 32. displeasure . The Israelites were faultie herein : and therefore great and most grieuous were the punishments not onely threatned , but inflicted also by God vpon the people of Israel Deut. 27. 15 , 26. 1. Cor. 10. 7. for their disobedience .

But we Christians haue onely generall rules ; no speciall forme of seruice giuen vs by Christ , as the Israelites had : an assertion so true , as some of you Sectaries haue a fancy , that Brownists 3. petit . posit. 7. as . 3. reas. 2. because God hath set downe none such in his word , the Church therefore should be bound to none at all , no not so much as to a forme of prayer , and haue euen made praiers against ordinary and common praiers .

When God therefore hath left vs free , blame vs not as Idolaters , God grant that in stead of ordinarie formes of prayers , we may haue preaching in all places . Lear. disc. p. 69. if differing from Papists in their Idolatrie , wee be like vnto them in some indifferent ceremony or other : and rather thinke though wee bee like them , and they like vs in kneeling : yet as they cannot be said to be good Christians , and to serue God , though they kneele : so are not we to be counted Papists , and to be Idolatrous , though we kneele . For by one and the same gesture both they doe worshippe their Idol , and wee our Sauiour : like in action , most vnlike in affection ; neither they by Gods word iustified because they are like vs ; nor we condemned , being in that ceremony like vnto them :

Schis .

These things considered , can kneeling wherewith Papists doe honour their breaden God , be honourable to Christ , in his holy Sacrament ?

Pro.

Yea , these things rightly considered , euen kneeling , wherewith the Papists do honor their breaden God , may be to the honor of Christ in his holy Sacrament . For by that gesture of body , whereby they do worship their false God , an idoll , by the same do we worship the true God , our Sauiour , sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens .

Now let vs know at the length what the other consideration is , why this kneeling is , or should be so hatefull vnto God and men .

SECT. 6.

Whether Kneeling hindreth the sweet familiarity betweene Christ and his Church .

Schis .

SEcondly , whereas the end of a Sacrament is to informe the outward man by sensible demonstration , it pleaseth our M. Christ to vse such gesture as agreeably with bread and wine , setteth out our Communion , and spirituall familiarity with him , and reioycing in him . And therefore as he saith : If any heare my voice , and open the doore , Reuel. 3. 20. I will come in to him , and sup with him , and he with me : so hee saith , Many shall come from the East , and West , and shall sit with Mat. 8. 11. Abraham , &c. By which places it appeareth that as by Supper , so by Sitting , familiar reioycing , or reioycing familiarity is expressed . In which respect the Communion is called the 1. Cor. 11. 20. & 10. 21. Lords Supper , and not a sacrifice ; and wee are said to bee partakers of the Lords table , and not of an Altar . And therefore not Kneeling , but Sitting is for receiuing .

Pro.

The end of all Sacraments is to informe not the outward onely , but the inward man also by sensible demonstrations ; and therefore bee they called Gods visible word , and seene , engendring and confirming Faith , and edifying the Soule as well as the Word audible and heard .

And as the word heard and beleeued diuersly doeth affect the soule , and to diuers blessed and good purposes : so doth the visible word , the sacraments , especially of the body and blood of Christ .

For as Circumcision was a Seale of the righteousnes of Rom. 4. Faith , that is , a testimonie confirming the Faith of Abraham : so to euery one which worthily doth partake of the bodie , and blood of Christ , his verie receauing is a sealing to his faith , that of Christ the body was giuen , and the blood shed for his sinnes .

Next it teacheth them , how the Sonne of God tooke on him the nature of man , that by the oblation of his body and blood , he might take away the sinnes of the world .

Besides , the memorie of that sacrifice propitiatorie is made perpetual , and thankes ascribed from time to time at the participating of those misteries , vnto the blessed dutie .

By communicating at this holy Sacrament , we learne moreouer , and do beleeue , that as the benefits of Christ are ours , and doe appertaine vnto vs , in so much as neither the members to the bodie , nor the branches to the vine , are more inseparably conioyned , than we to him , he communicating vnto vs his vigor , and virtue .

Furthermore wee testifie , and make it knowne to the world , how we are members of that Church , which professeth , and acknowledgeth how the Sonne of God , by the Sacrifice of his humane bodie , hath pacified God for the sinnes of man .

It admonisheth vs in like sort , of the mutuall loue , and communion which is , and ought to be betweene the members of so sacred , and sanctified a body .

Many other causes , and reasons may be alleadged why this Sacrament was instituted at the first , and is frequented still of Gods people ; whereof though the setting out of our Communion , and spirituall familiaritie with him , and reioycing in him , be one ; yet it is not the onely end , but many being besides , many gestures in diuers respects , and not one onely , is required for the more seemely receauing the same externallie .

Againe , there being many causes , and ends of our receauing the holy Supper , one , and the same site of body neither doth remember vs , nor can present , and represent all those ends vnto vs and others . And therefore as sitting may note our communion , and familiarity : so kneeling our thankfulnes vnto God .

But if this spirituall Communion , and comfort onely be 1. Cor. 12. thereby signified ( as nothing is more vntrue ) yet is the same expressed by the other Sacrament of Baptisme , as well as by this ; and represented as well by water , consisting of many drops , as either of wine , effected of many grapes , or of bread , made of many graines . Which Baptisme yet is neither ministred , nor vrged so to be , by Sitting , as the Supper is .

Neither is our corporall foode alwaies , and euery where , to the greatest comfort , and token of sweetest familiarity , receiued Sitting ; but sundry writers haue their seuerall fashions in their friendly , and comfortable refreshings ; some taking the same one way , some another , not all Sitting , especially in the Easterne parts of the world . The antient Fathers , some of them called this sacrament , as the Lords Supper ; so a Sacrifice : and that which the bread and wine were set vpon ; as the Lords Table , so an Altar . Whereof saith reuerent , and most learned Zanchie , although that Zanch. de lege dei . fol. 444. Altars serue rather , and be more meete for the offering , then for the ministration of the Supper : yet seeing neither Christ , nor his Apostles either prohibited Altars , or commended vnto vs the vse of wooden tables , therefore is this also of ( altars ) to bee numbred among things indifferent ; and free for all , and euery man to vse tables either of wood , or stone at his discretion , prouided that all superstition be remooued . For what is an Altar ( saieth that holy and peaceable man ) what is an altar but a table made of stones ? about which would not I contend ( saith hee , ) if so be otherwise there is a consent in the true doctrine and worship of God . All this hath Zanchie , which we say of Kneeling , and the like .

And would to God you would so thinke of our Kneeing , and others Altars , and of all things else in good vse in reformed Churches , that be indifferent . Then would , then could you neuer say , that not Kneeling , and Sitting is for receiuing .

It had bin too much for you to haue said , how not kneeling , but auerring that Sitting is for receiuing ( as if none other gesture were for the commodious and meete receiuing thereof , but Sitting ) is very bad .

The first admonitioners which so disliked Kneeling at the Communion , neuer vrged their Sitting , as a thing necessary , as you doe , saying , not Kneeling , but Sitting is for receiuing . For , say they , wee make not Sitting a thing of necessity Admon in the addit . belonging to the Sacrament , neither affirme wee that it may not be receiued otherwise .

Therefore better iudge they of these than you doe , but they best of all , who take them as they are , things of themselues indifferent , and so except authority determine otherwise , like to be deemed , and that as good Communion and society they haue with Christ and his Church ( hauing on them the wedding garment of Faith ) which receiue Kneeling , as they which Sit , so as no man for the very act of kneeling , no more then of Sitting , sinneth .

Schis .

We read not of any gesture of body prescribed or obserued in Circumcision and Baptisme , as in the Passeouer and Supper .

Pro.

Or obserued ? Had you not added these wordes I should haue thought that by your reading you had found how thereis a forme of gesture prescribed vnto Christians at their taking the holy Communion . And though I shreudly coniecture you are of that minde : yet being not willing to take you at the worst , let vs know the reason why a gesture was obserued , though not prescribed at the holy Supper , which was neither prescribed nor obserued at Baptisme and Circumcision .

Schis .

Because there needeth no naturall regard to be had of any certaine gesture in the two former Sacraments , so the fore-skin were cut off , and water be vsed : but in the other two , a gesture answerable to the action is requisite .

Pro.

It is requisit and necessary that we take , and eate bread and wine at the supper of the Lord , as it was requisite that the fore-skin should be cut off at Circumcision , and water vsed , and none other liquor at Baptisme : but that a certaine gesture was either obserued or requisit at the Communion , this reason sheweth not .

Schis .

God prescribed to his people , when they were to Exod. 12. 11. flie out of Egypt , the gesture of loynes girded , and staues in their hands , because the eating then of the Passeouer was Numb. 9. 3. in hast . But the gesture being but for that time , as may appeare by the omission thereof , when the obseruation of Mat. 5. 17. the Passeouer was established , our Master Christ , who Mat. 26. 20. came not to breake , but fulfill the Law , and knew what was fittest to be done , did eate the Passeouer Sitting , a gesture more answerable to eating in peace , than the former vsed in Egypt .

Pro.

Because God prescribed to the Iewes a forme of taking , and eating the Passeouer , hath hee therefore prescribed a forme to Christians of taking , and receiuing the Lords Supper ? The one you manifest , the other I would see prooued .

But had our God set downe , ( as he hath not ) the manner how Christians should receaue the Supper , as hee ordained how the Passeouer should bee taken , and eaten of the Iewes : yet because you heere confesse , that this forme of eating the Passeouer , in processe of time was altered , the Iewes now eating the same Sacrament for substance , but after a new manner , sitting in Christs time , ( for so you say ) standing afore , and yet without sinne : why may not wee Christians , vpon as good reasons , retaining the substance , change the manner after which the holy Supper was ministred , and receiued in the daies of Christ ?

Before Christ his time , there were additions vnto , ( you heard afore ) in Christ his time there were alterations of the manner of taking the Passe-ouer ( your selfe do say ) yet all well liked and allowed of the Lord . Had the Iewes more libertie to adde formes , euen of admimistring the Sacraments , then Christians haue ? Or be Christians in more bondage this way , and restrained than the Iewes ? And might the Iewes vpon good considerations doe these things , and may not Christians without sinne doe as they did ?

Wee take therefore what you acknowledge ( though wee will not acknowledge it to be true ) namely , that the manner of taking , and receauing the Passe-ouer , was altered : the Iewes taking it at the first standing , in processe of time , sitting .

What gather you thereof ?

Schis .

Hereby kneeling is conuinced as being a gesture altogether vnanswereable to eating .

Pro.

Whereof is Kneeling conuinced ? Shew : you haue not yet declared . Or what maketh the Iewes sitting at the last , or standing at the first , to our Kneeling at the Communion ?

Kneeling differeth from Sitting , Standing , Walking , and the like ; but answereth to eating , and drinking well enough . For wee may eate to our mutual comfort ( if the common guise were not otherwise ) as well Kneeling , as Sitting , Standing , or any other way : which you cannot truly deny . If ciuilly we may so doe at our common refreshings , why not much more Ecclesiasticallie , and sacramentallie at the Supper of the Lord ?

Schis .

Because ( such Kneeling ) it darkeneth the counsell Iob 38. 2. 1. Cor. 11. 25. 26. of God , and being a signe of the greatest submission , obscureth the reioycing familiaritie , which the Lords Supper signifieth , and sealeth .

Pro.

Kneeling at the Communion darkeneth ( say you ) the counsell of God , and obscureth the Reioycing familiaritie , which the Lords Supper signifieth , and sealeth .

For the ratifying of these your assertions you quote Scripture , and bring a reason . The places of Scripture which you quote be two , the former out of Iob ; the latter from S. Paul .

Out of the booke of Iob the place is this , Who is this that Iob. 38. 2. darkeneth the counsell by words without knowledge ? alledged onely for the phrase sake , but concerneth the point in controuersie not a whit . S. Pauls words bee these : After the same manner also hee tooke the cuppe , when he had supped , saying , this cuppe is the new Testament in my blood , This doe 1. Cor. 11. 25. 26. as oft as you shall drinke it in remembrance of mee . For as often as yee shal eat this bread , and drinke this cup , yee shew the Lords death till he come . Now what is this also against our Kneeling : They which worthily participate of the bread and wine , though they Kneele , doe as comfortably , and familiarly Communicate in the blessings of God , as they which in any other sort receiue the Sacraments .

Your reason that it obscureth the reioycing familiaritie which the Lords Supper signifieth and sealeth , because it is a signe of the greatest submission , is so farre from obscuring , that it furthereth the same reioycing familiarity nothing more .

For who can receiue either to Gods glory more notably , or to their owne soules ioy more comfortably , then they which with the greatest signe of submission , and that vnto the diuine Maiestie , repaire vnto the holy Supper ?

Afore you said , and truely , how kneeling was a signe of the greatest reuerence ; here you say , It is the greatest signe of submission . These are no reasons to driue vs from it , but very forcible motiues to make vs with cheerefulnes and alacrity to continue our Kneeling .

Besides , you argue ( me thinkes ) but from a particular , as though spirituall familiaritie only , and not other things besides , and namely and especially a gratefull remembrance , and thankefull acknowledgement of all Gods mercies and fauours , which is best expressed by Kneeling , were to be in our thoughts .

When there be many causes inducing vs to receiue the Sacrament ; if we chuse that gesture we aboue all may testifie our true humiliation , and thankefulnesse vnto God , rather then our reioycing familiaritie one with another ; blame vs not . And yet is this corporall submission , and submissiue thankefulnes at no time without much spiritituall ioy ; and it may be , more encreaseth godly ioy in them which Kneele , and in them too before whom they Kneele , then your acknowledged lesse reuerent Sitting , as at a common feast .

Schis .

Doewe not condemne the Papists for ministring the Communion in one kind , because such an administration is against Christ his example , and doeth not liuely demonstrate the Lords death ?

Pro.

The condemnation of the Papists is iust for their such ministring . And therefore the Scripture which you point vnto , serueth verie aptlie to displaie their impietie , which swarue from Christ his institution by ministring the Communion in one kinde , but not against vs for Kneeling .

And their blame is the iuster , and the more , not so much because they swarue by their said ministring from his example , ( which in some cases , as afore hath beene showne , is lawfull to be done , ) as for that verie disobediently they transgresse the manifest Commandement of God , which hath enioined the said Sacrament to be administred in both kindes .

Schis .

Heare a caueat is to be giuen , that none take occasion by this discourse ( of mine ) to iustifie the childish pedagogy of signifying ceremonies deuised by man , seeing Sitting was vsed by Christ , & the signification thereof is found in Scripture . And therefore that childish pedagogie is not iustified by that worthy seruant of Christ , M. Cartwright his iudgement , viz. that Sitting doth signifie our rest in Christ Iesus .

Pro.

Those children which allow and like of significant ceremonies , may bee your Fathers in sound Diuinitie .

How , and by whom such ceremonies are iustified , it is needlesse to set downe ; but that they are iustified by most godlie , and learned men , their iudgement touching some ceremonies vsed euen at the Communion , beare witnesse . Greete yee one another with an holy kisse , 1. Cor. 16. 26. saith Saint Paul . Erat elegans admonitio in osculo , There was an elegant admonition in the kisse . Nam coiunctionem intimam declarabat , for it signified a most inward coniunction . Also not onely a consent , sed communionem sanctorum , but the communion of Saints which they Arctius in . 1. Cor. 10. ver. 10. professed in doctrine and sacred ceremonies , saith Arctius .

And of the same kisse , Nec est dubitandum ( saith Peter Martyr ) it is not to bee doubted , how in the primitiue P. Mart. in 1. Cor. 16. Church , Christians gaue one another the mutuall kisse of peace and consent , before they went vnto the holy communion , by which token their purpose was to admonish themselues of the communion of Saints celebrated in the mysteries . The marginall annotation from Geneua vpon Geneua annota . on 1. Cor. 26. 20. these words of the Apostle is : ( How the Christians did so kisse ) in token of mutuall loue , which thing was obserued in the primitiue Church when the Lords Supper was ministred .

Marke these things aduisedlie , and you shall see ,

First , that to the administration of the Supper , ceremonies , as kissing ( more then euer Christ , that wee know , practised , sure I am , then hee euer prescribed ) were added .

Secondly , how the said ceremonies were very elegant , and significant :

And lastly , that the said addition , and ceremonies ( no not for their mysticall signification ) were neuer deemed either vnlawfull or childish ( as you childishlie doe call them ) but very highlie commended both by the Apostle , and worthy interpretors in the Church of Christ .

But to proceede still in the sacred Supper still in hand . There be actions of the minister , and of the people , and yet all ceremoniall , and significant .

The action of the minister giuing the bread and wine , representeth Gods action in giuing Christ , with his benefits to the particular communicants . Againe , the action ( whether by sitting , kneeling , or by whatsoeuer done ) of receauing the bread and wine seuerallie , resembleth another speciall action of the beleeuing heart , which applieth T●at . of conscience . cap. 3. §. 3. Christ vnto it selfe for the pardon of sinne , and life euerlasting . This is M. Perkins iudgement .

Finally , among the actions of the Communicants , sitting ( the ceremonie which you so stand for , condemning all other sites , especialle Kneeling ) doth it not in the opinion of the admonishioners , signifie rest , that is , a full finishing 1. Admon . through Christ of all the ceremoniall law , and a perfect worke of redemption wrought , that giueth rest for euer ? But that is a childish pedagogie , saie you , not iustified by that worthy seruant of Christ , Master Cartwright . And yet , euen you his disciple , Schismatike , which giue vs here a caueat not to take sitting to signifie such arest , euen you take your sitting to be as childish a pedagogie , as significant a ceremonie , maintaining the said sitting to be a signe and token of the reioycing familiaritie , and familiar reioycing betweene Christ , and his Church ; for to this end tendeth this whole section and discourse .

SECT. 7.

Whether Christ sat of purpose .

Schis .

THat kneeling may be more soundly conuinced as a will-worship , obiections are to be answered .

Pro.

Conuicted hitherto you haue not , much lesse soundly conuinced Kneeling to be a wil-worship ; and therefore more soundly you cannot , yea neuer soundly shall yee conuince the same to be a wil-worshippe , though your will be good . But do your indeauour , inuent obiections , and set downe your answers , that we may see how well you can effect that which you haue in purpose .

Schis .

Therefore where it is supposed that Christ and his Apostles ministred and receiued Sitting but by occasion , and not of purpose , because they were Sitting before in eating the Passeouer , whereas if Christ had Sitten downe of purpose to administer the Communion , then all that is said is granted to be to some purpose .

Pro.

Indeed that Christ did Sit at his holy Communion , is but a supposall . There is a marginall annotation in the Geneua Bible , which speaketh thus : Their fashion was Geneua annot. Iohn 13. 23. not to Sit at table , but hauing their shooes off , and cushions vnder their elbowes , leaned on their sides , as it were halfe lying .

If Christ did not Sit , as these men say : and againe , if halfe lying bee not to Sit , surely it must be more then halfe a lie , without all supposals to affirme our Sauiour ( as often as you haue done ) to haue sat at the Sacred boord . Your selfe also at the first did but suppose our Sauiour Supra sect. 4 P. 37. to haue Sitten , when you said , He ministred Sitting , or in such a gesture as in those countries was most vsed .

But without supposals , grant he did sit , and of purpose too when he administred the Communion : yet what by you hitherto hath beene said to this purpose , ought not ; sure I am will neuer be acknowledged by me to be spoken to any purpose , but idlely .

What say you hereto ?

Schis .

The answer is short , yet full .

Pro.

Expresse it .

Schis .

Christ did sit of purpose when he ministred his last Supper . For after the Passeouer he rose , washed his disciples feete , and sate downe againe .

Pro.

Surely what Christ did was purposely done .

The originall is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 translated Rursum discumbens , he lying downe againe . For Notum est ( saith Beza ) it is Beza & Viler . in Ioh. 13. v. 13 well knowne how men in old time ( the Iewes especially ) were wont at the table , Non sedere , sed recumbere , notto sit , but to lie , or leane themselues downe .

Besides , the example you bring of our Sauior Christ is of good regard . For , as the Euangelist hath described , Christ before this holy supper , & after the Passeouer , laid aside his Ioh. 13. v. 4. 5. vpper garment , and tooke a towell , & girded himselfe . After that , he powred water into a Bason , and began to wash the disciples feete , and to wipe them with the towell wherewith he was girded . And after he had washed their feete , and had taken his garments , and was set ( or laid ) downe againe , hee said vnto them : Know you what I haue done to you , &c. If I then your Lord and maister , haue washed your feet , yee also ought towash one anothers feete .

So did , and so spake our Sauiour Christ , thereby not onely mouing by his example , but also enioyning them by strong reason to do that which himselfe had done : yet is there not one among you ( the most earnest vrgers of this Sitting , and that after the example of Christ ) that either doe as our Sauiour did before hee administred this Sacrament , or regard his motion . Wherein if you doe well , you may further see , that Christ his actions are not necessarily to be followed alwayes in matters ceremoniall especially , as afore hath beene said .

SECT. 8.

Whether Christ prescribed a speciall gesture for the Communion .

Schis .

IT may be demanded , why the church is not bound to the time of Euening , aswell as to the gesture of Iohn 13. 12. Sitting , sith Christ obserued the one as well as the other .

Pro.

You hold still the Church is bound to the gesture of Sitting . But you are to bee put in minde , how this is but a meere fancie of yours . Your worthie master Cartwright dissenteth herein from you ( as otherwayes sometime T. C. 1. rep. p. 131. §. 3. he dissenteth from his well fauoured Admonitioners . ) For it is not of necessitie ( saith hee ) that wee should receiue the Communion Sitting . If otherwise the man had not erred , hee should neuer haue troubled , nor offended our Church , as like a most vnworthie Minister thereof he hath done .

But , I pray you , why are we bound to the gesture of Sitting , & not bound to the time of Euening ? especially being sure that Christ administred his Sacrament in the night , but are not sure that he sate .

Schis .

It may bee answered , Time being a common circumstance to euerie action ( for nothing can bee done , but in some time ) the particular time is not to bee obserued , Gen. 2. 2 , 3. except Christ had sanctified it to the Communion , as GOD sanctified the seuenth day , on which hee rested , or ( at least ) chose it of purpose , as hee did Sitting .

Pro.

A certaine gesture ( say you , ) but no certaine time was chosen by Christ ; who appointing no time when , doth choose a manner how his Supper should bee ministred , viz. in your opinion , Sitting . And yet the Scripture beareth witnesse ( to nothing more plainly ) that hee instituted and celebrated his Supper in the night , choosing that speciall time for that purpose , as well as the Sitting you speake of .

But if hee chose no such time ( as you would make the world beleeue ) but left the time free , and at the libertie of his people to limit ; then made hee no more choice of Sitting , then of anie other site . For hee either chose both , or neither ; and wee are no more tied to the necessarie obseruation of the one , then of the other . For hee vsing both a speciall time , and a certaine gesture , if hee chose the one hee chose both ; and if his example bee of vs necessarilie to bee followed in the gesture , it is to bee followed also in the time ; wee can no more alter the one , then wee may change the other .

Schis .

That followeth not . For it was vppon speciall and necessarie occasion , for the Passeouer must bee Mat. 26. 31. Luke 22. 53. eaten before the Lords Supper could be instituted in stead thereof , and presently after Supper , the houre came that Christ was to be betraied .

Pro.

Be this acknowledged : what hereof ?

Schis .

Therefore if the Iewes transgressed not the institution of the Passeouer , by changing a gesture at the first prescribed by God , according to that their present occasion into another fitter for a time of rest , much lesse do Christians transgresse the institution of the Lords Supper , by changing the time taken by Christ vpon occasion , but not prescribed , into some fitter ( in discretion ) for the ordinarie celebration of the Lords Supper .

Pro.

You haue twice now said , that the Iewes changed the gesture of Standing , prescribed euen by God himself , at their eating the Passeouer : if you had once proued your saying Mat. Flacius Illyr. I. Wigand . Mat. Index , Ba ▪ Faber : hist. eccles. Cent : 1. l. 1. c. 10. p. 329. to make it out of doubt , you had done well . Other diuines , not to be contemned , thinke cleane otherwise , namely , that the Iewes , and euen Christ himselfe kept the old custome of standing , & neuer changed the same into Sitting . Non autem dubium est ( bee some of their words ) it is without doubt , that Christ performed that ceremonie ( of eating the Passeouer ) Stando amictus , & baculum tenens : Standing , his loynes girded , and holding a staffe in his hand .

But it may not bee acknowledged ( which now the second time also you say ) that their newe Sitting was fitter for a time of rest , then their old Standing , God hauing prescribed this Standing for a perpetuall memorie ( euen till the reall Passion of Christ ) of their suddaine and safe deliuerance from the most grieuous thraldome of theirs in Egypt .

But did , or might the Iewes before the verie and full time was come that the said Passeouer was to take an end , alter the rite and site of eating the same , changing their Standing prescribed into Sitting , not enioynd by God , but deuised by themselues , as fitter to represent their present and future rest , then their former troubles : may not Gods people in these dayes change the site of Christs Sitting ( if he did Sit , ) which was neuer prescribed vnto Christians , into Kneeling in their discretion ?

The Iewes transgressed not the institution of the Passeouer ( say you ) by changing a gesture at the first prescribed of God : and doe Christians transgresse the institution of the Supper , by changing a gesture neither first , nor last , nor at all prescribed , if practised by Christ ?

And might Christians in former dayes lawfully change the time chosen by Christ , but not prescribed , into some other fitter ( in discretion ) for the ordinarie celebrating of the Lords Supper : and doe Christians now offend in changing a corporall gesture , no more enioined then was the time , into some fitter ( in discretion ) for the celebrating of the Lords Supper in a publique Church , at open publique praier , and thanksgiuing ?

Haue not Christians in these indifferent matters as great power as had the Iewes , and the now liuing Christians as their forefathers ? And might both Iewes and Christians adde and alter formes of administring the Sacraments , not changing their substance ; and sinne they now which in these dayes doe vse their libertie in these things , after the example both of the Christians and Iewes ? See you not how your owne weapons doe wound your selfe ? Now among Christians who changed the time ?

Schis .

Probably the Primitiue Church did .

Pro.

You cannot then certainly say it , you doe but probably coniecture that the Primitiue Church made the change . What moueth you so to thinke ?

Schis .

For euery first day of the weeke ( viz. the Lords day ) Act. 2. 42. & 20 7. 1. Cor. 16. 2. Reuel. 2. 18. the brethren came together to breake bread , that is , to minister the Communion So that either they neuer met vpon the Lords day but in the Euening , or els they celebrated the Communion at some other times .

Pro.

Be it that the first day , yea euerie first day of the weeke , namely , euery Lords day , the Christians came together to breake bread , that is , to minister the Communion ( which yet is not agreed vpon among the learned : ) yet that they so met euery first day in the day time , and not in the night , is but coniecturall ; yea , that they met together in the night as well as in the day to that end , the twentie Beza in Act. 20. 7. of the Acts doth shew . Wherupon some doe note how nocturnall meetings are not simplie , and of themselues to be condemned .

But let it be more then probable , and most certaine , that the alteration of the time of ministring the Lords Supper came in while the Apostles liued : yet did this ministring thereof in the day varie from Christ his ministring the same in the night ; and being done with good discretion , the Church thereby transgressed not the institution of Christ .

So without sinne was the gesture of our Sauiour changed into Kneeling , whosoeuer were the authors thereof .

Schis .

But for any alteration of the gesture of Sitting , especially into Kneeling , there is not the least probabilitie .

Pro.

When all the world knoweth , and seeth the gesture to be altered , how can you say it is not probable that it was altered ?

And though it bee not apparent , and if you will too , not probable , that the Apostles altered the gesture , and that into Kneeling : yet it is most certaine , and more then probable , that Apostolicall men , endued with the holy Spirit , were both alterers at the first , and vsers afterward of that seemely gesture .

SECT. 9.

Whether the prayer at the deliuerie of the bread and wine , be iustifiable .

Schis .

IT is further obiected , that we may Kneele in regard of prayers to be vsed by prescription of authoritie , at the deliuerie of the bread and wine , viz. The bodie of our Lord Iesus Christ , which was giuen for thee , preserue thy bodie and soule vnto eternall life : and take and eat this , &c.

Pro.

What is your answere ?

Schis .

Hereunto these answers may be returned .

Pro.

Which be they ?

Schis .

( First ) seeing wee reiect Christ his example of Sitting for Kneeling , wee must not stand vpon what wee may doe , but humblie consider what wee must doe .

Pro.

Those Christians which Kneele , doe no more reiect Christ his example of Sitting , then doe you reiect it in ministring the Communion to women , priuatly , and many wayes besides , otherwise then he did .

If euerie action of Christ be a necessarie iniunction binding Christians to the imitation of the same , so as they may not varie therefrom in their discretion but they sinne , that which you haue said of the Christians celebrating of the Supper in the day , deserueth the same reproofe which this Kneeling doeth , both swaruing from this example , but surely neither of them tending to Gods dishonour , nor against his will .

But what incenseth your stomack against these prayers , and maketh them vnlawfull to be vsed ?

Schis .

If there bee not a necessarie , and a iustifiable cause both of those prayers , and of Kneeling in regard of them , doe we not presume vpon Christ his patience , in reiecting his example ?

Pro.

Wee reiect no example of Christ as ill , but doe some things at the Communion which hee did not , as more meete and conuenient for the times and places where wee liue , then were or his would bee : and wee haue necessarie and iustifiable causes both of our prayers made at the holy Table , and of our Kneeling in regard of them . And therefore presume we not a whit vpon the patience of Christ .

Schis .

What necessitie is there of those prayers , at that verie time ? seeing praiers go before , and follow after .

Pro.

You can shew no ill at all , either in the matter , or forme of those praiers ; & therfore not to be despised are they as you would haue them to be .

Besides , at that verie time ( whatsoeuer goe afore , or follow after ) the Minister not onely prayeth for ( which is verie charitable ; ) but also putteth the Communicant in minde , both of Gods mercie towards mankind in giuing his Sonne Christ to the shamefull death of the Crosse for our redemption , and of his dutie towards God , in being thankfull for so great benefits : which are things necessarie ; but neuer more then at the verie receiuing of the signes , and pledges of Gods fauour .

Schis .

Againe , must wee needes Kneele at euerie bit of a prayer ?

Pro.

Euery bit ( as you scoffingly doe say ) and modicum of praier vnto God , ought to be offered to the heauenly Maiestie , with the worthiest gesture of submission , to whom we cannot make our praiers with reuerence too much . A greater argument of submission , or signe of reuerence is there not then kneeling .

A base , beggarly , and contemptible bit of bread , and sup W. Rai . of the Sacra . c. 11. p. 238. of wine , saith Rainolds the runnagate of the Lords Supper .

The world at the last now may see , and report to what height of spirituall pride , yee Sectaries are come , when with the Papists yee scorne and deride both our holy prayers , which ye cannot disproue or amend , as bits ; and vs for kneeling euen when wee offer vp both our praiers and praises vnto our God , and that for the chiefest benefit that euer was conferred vpon mankind .

Schis .

Is there more necessity to obey a needlesse direction to kneele at those prayers , then to follow the example of Christ in Sitting , when wee take , eate , and drinke things required in the same sentences ?

Pro.

Bits of prayers ; Needlesse directions : these be your elegancies . Better ought you to thinke of our publique both praiers and orders , then to terme them beeing short , Bittes ; and the other not according to your minde , needlesse .

Are these your proceedings ( Schismatikes ) both in deuotion towards God ; and in obedience toward the Church , that you scorne the one and despise the other , regard neither further ▪ then you list ?

Sweete are those praiers to our inward man , which you terme bits ; & necessary those directions , which it pleaseth you to phrase , needlesse : yea so necessary , as whereas we are not bound in euery action of Christ , and all circumstances , necessarilie to follow Christ in receauing the Communion , we are bound vnder the paine of his heauie wrath , to obey these directions of God made by his lieutenants .

Schis .

And why must the people kneele when they heare those prayers , rather then the minister that pronounceth them ?

Pro.

The people when they communicate receiue the pledges of Gods loue from the ministers hand , to the comfort of their soules . The minister when hee so receaueth , and heareth such praiers , Kneeleth too , as well as doe the people .

Schis .

But it is a question whether those prayers be iustifiable , or no.

Pro.

Disprooue them if you can , why are they not iustifiable ?

Schis .

For , besides that by reason of them , kneeling , deuised and abused by Antichrist , doth crosse the practise of Christs , and his Apostles , and they may seeme a vaine repetition , euen the adding of them to the wordes of institution , is contrary to the minde of Christ .

Pro.

You haue strange thoughts both of our Kneeling , and prayers at the Communion for our said Kneeling , and of our Kneeling for the said Prayers sake .

Kneeling , say you , was deuised and abused by Antichrist . But you cannot prooue our Kneeling by Antichrist to be either deuised , or abused .

Antichrist , and Antichristians they doe kneele , but it is at their Masse , and other prayers , both vngodly and superstitious : our kneeling at the Communion neither did hee deuise , nor doth abuse ; and if he were the deuiser of the same , yet vse wee that gesture well , and to Gods glorie , which hee deuised , or his members abuse vnto idolatrie .

Againe , Kneeling doth crosse the practise of Christ ( say you ) and his Apostles : which is also vntrue . For well may it differ , as doe all formes of administring the holy suppervsed in the Church , one way or other , from the practise of Christ , but in nothing doth it crosse , or contrarie the same ; or if it doe , shew wherein that we may see the fault , and amend it .

And though wee kneeled not : yet ( in your opinion ) should we crosse the practise of Christ , and his Apostles , euen for those prayers of ours . Which if you speake as you thinke , hereafter condemne vs not for bending our knees ( as very bitterlie you haue done , but as vniustly ) but blame vs for lending our eares attentiuely vnto the prayers vttered when we receiue ; yea , blame vs for saying those prayers , or Amen vnto them .

These prayers of ours you condemne as wicked , first , because there may seeme a vaine repetition , next , for that the adding of them to the words of institution , is contrarie to the minde of Christ , wherein you plainely do manifest your detestation of the prayers , but shew no word in them for all that , sauoring of impietie and error .

They seeme , nay , they may seeme ( say you ) a vaine repetition .

What they seeme in your eyes , nay what they seeme not , but may seeme , is not materiall : if they seemed so , you would shew it ; if they were a vaine repetition , you would say , and prooue it . Your manner is not to extenuate faultes , but to aggrauate offenses ; yea to make faultes where there be none , as in all your discourse hitherto you haue done nothing els .

Finally , bee all additions to the wordes of institution contrary to the mind of Christ ? This conference of ours hath shewne , how both vnto the Passeouer , both words , and things were ; and vnto the Lords Supper , first a Supper , euen a Loue feast , and at the same Loue feast , holy Kisses ( ceremonies most elegant , and significant ) were added : and yet neither these , nor any other additions to this houre were euer deemed ( but onely of you Schismatikes ) contrary to the mind of Christ , howsoeuer crossing his practise .

These additions of ours adde nothing to the substance , but onely to the forme of ministring Gods Sacraments ; and therefore not vnlawfull , nor contrary to the minde of Christ .

But shew , how is the addition of these words contrary to his mind ?

Schis .

For hee did first blesse or pray , and after gaue the Elements in a Sacramentall forme of words , without any addition , saying , Take , eate , &c. which order of administration , and forme of words , Matthew , Marke , Luke , and Mat. 6. 7. &c. 26. 26 , &c. Marke 14. 21. Luke 2● . 19 , &c. 1. Cor. 11. 23. 24. Paul , doe so constantly , precisely , and sincerely relate , that any may perceiue the meaning of the Spirit to bee , That the Sacramentall forme of words ought to be obserued without any addition ; and the rather because Paul beginneth his relation thus : I haue receiued of the Lord that which I haue also deliuered , &c.

Pro.

We stand against the Papists , wee stand likewise against you Schismatikes , that in the ministration of the holy Supper , we keepe vs most precisely to the institution of Christ ; neither shall you , nor they euer proue that wee swarue therefrom .

There be actions to be done of Pastors , after the example of Christ ; there be actions of the people , after the example of the Disciples ; there be things necessary , there be accessory ; there be substantiall , and vnmutable , there be accidentall , and changeable .

After the example of Christ , Pastors are to blesse the Beza in 1. Cor. 11. 23. bread and wine by calling on the Name of God , and opening the institution with prayers ; and to breake the bread which is to be eaten , and the cuppe which is to bee drunke , and to deliuer both the bread and wine into the peoples hands with thankesgiuing . On the other side , it is the part of the flocke to examine themselues , 1. To trie both their knowledge , as also their faith and repentance ; to declare the Lords death , that is , by a true faith to assent vnto his word and institution : last of all , to eate the bread taken from the ministers hand , and to drink the wine with thanksgiuing . This was Pauls and the Apostle liturgie , saieth Beza : and is it not the liturgie of our Church at the administration of the Communion ?

The taking of bread is necessary ( we take it ; ) thankesgiuing , that is , the sacrifice Eucharisticall is necessarie ( wee zanch. de lege . fol. 446. are thankefull ; ) the breaking of bread is necessary ( wee breake it ; ) the distribution ( of bread and wine ) is necessary ( we distribute them ; ) and that it be giuen only to the Disciples of Christ it is necessary ( we giue the bread and wine vnto none but Christians . ) For all these things pertaine vnto the substance of the Supper , saith Zanchie . Now what of these necessary things either want we , or doe we not in our Church ?

If any thing we adde , it is but for the better setting foth of the Sacrament , and stirring vp of good affections : which may be done very well , without offence to God , after the example of Gods people , Iewes and Christians , as afore more than once hath beene declared .

Hence Master Caluin : so much ( saith hee ) as concerneth Institut. l. 4. §. 43. the outward forme of doing ( or ministring the Sacrament ) whether the faithfull receiue it ( viz. the bread ) in their hand , or not ; whether they diuide it , or euery one eate that which is giuen him ; whether they put the cup in the hand of the Deacon , or deliuer it to the next : whether the bread bee leauened , or vnleauened : whether the wine bee red , or whit ; I might adde , whether wee sit or kneele ; whether our payers , and thankesgiuings bee long , or short ( according to the times , and occasions ) whether we vse prayers , or no , at the deliuerie , and receiuing the elements ) it maketh no matter . These things bee indifferent ( saith Caluin ) and left at the the libertie of the Church .

Whereas therefore you say , that the very Sacramentall forme of wordes ought preciselie to bee obserued without any addition ( I say , not to the sense , and substance of matter , but to the very words ) as if keeping vs to the same sense wee vse other words , or more words , or in another forme , though to the same holy end , and purpose ) were vnlawfull , and an adding vnto Christ his institution , and so a sinne liable to the heauie curse of God , is doctrine strange , hithereto not witnessed by the Churches of God .

Schis .

It may seeme to bee against religion and reason , that to a Sacramentall forme of speech , wherein the minister should only supplie the person of Christ , there should be added a Prayer , as in the name of the Church . This confusion is fitter for Babylon , than for Sion .

Pro.

That Christ said , Take , eate , this is my Body , the Scripture doth manifest : but either that Christ vsed no more words , tending to prayer , thankesgiuing , exhortation , or instruction , or tied his ministers to those verie , and onely wordes , no scripture doth shew , no writter saith , but your selfe : neither doth it seeme that any sound religion , and little reason is in him , that so saith , being fitter to come from one of the brattes of Babylon , than from any childe of Sion .

Schis .

Why is not a short prayer , after other going before , as well ioyned to the Sacramentall forme of Baptisme , viz. N. I. baptize thee in the name of the Father ? &c.

Pro.

The forme of Baptisme is but short , the prayers , and other good speeches , complementing the same both going before , and following after , ( set downe in the wisedome of the Church , without any speciall commandement of God ) are neither few , nor confused , and hitherto vnreprooued , for ought I could euer yet heare : which may teach you not cynicallie to barke against formes and fashions of administring Gods Sacraments , when the matter vttered , and vsed , is good , godly , and iustifiable .

Schis .

If then this addition of prayer to the sacramentall forme of words bee not of faith , how can wee , with faith , and a good conscience , confirme or allow the same with our kneeling ? Rom. 22. 20. 3.

Pro.

But if this addition to the sacramentall forme of words , bee no addition to the substance of the sacrament , but onely in the Churches discretion added for the greater glorie of God , and comfort of the receiuers , then hath it Gods words for the warrant thereof , and may be well vttered , and reuerently heard , and assented vnto euen on our bended knees .

And so if there be no fault in our kneeling , but because of those praiers , Kneeling cannot bee faultie , because the praiers be iustified .

SECT. 10.

Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a gesture indifferent .

Schis .

LAstly , for iustifying of Kneeling it is affirmed , that it is indifferent whether wee Sit , Stand , or Kneele , seeing Christ did Sit , when he did eate the Passeouer , whereas God commanded the children of Israel in Egypt to eate the Passeouer Standing , and some reformed Churches receiue Standing . Therefore the King may appoint kneeling as the most reuerend gesture , and best beseeming so holy an action .

Pro.

We deeme kneeling to be a corporall site of it selfe indifferent , not because Christ did sit , when hee should haue stood , eating the Passeouer . ( For hee did Stand , according to the first institution , and not Sitte : ) but beecause it is of the nature euen of Sitting , and Standing , which I thinke your selfe will not denie to be sites indifferent .

Besides , your selfe haue acknowledged that Kneeling hath beene abused as were the Loue Feasts ; and therefore might afore bee well vsed as things indifferent may .

Againe , you haue lately giuen vs to note , how kneeling of it selfe is not euill , and so to be taken and counted , but because it is vsed at certaine prayers , which in your conceit are euill , at least not iustifiable . Therefore indifferent .

Lastly , remember you not how you said of Kneeling , that it is the most solemne signe of reuerence ; and a signe of the greatest submission ? Therefore not simply euill , and to be condemned .

Nay , when you say this of Kneeling , why may not the King appoint the most solemne signe of reuerence , the signe of the greatest submission , or ( as you now say , whether in earnest , or sport , I waigh not ( the most reuerend gesture ( for so is it ) and best beseeming so holy an action , for the Lords Supper ?

Schis .

For answere whereunto , howsoeuer that which is alreadie said , may suffice , yet it may be further considered , that though it be admitted , that it is indifferent to Sitte , or to Stand : yet doth it not follow , that Kneeling is indifferent .

Pro.

Doe you but admitte Sitting and Standing to bee indifferent ? are they so but by way of Concession ? And though you grant Standing and Sitting to bee so , yet doeth it not follow that Kneeling is of the same nature indifferent ? what reason haue you that it is not ?

Schis .

For Sitting is the example , and Standing is a gesture sometimes vsed in extraordinary eating , ( and in the obiection ) it is said to be prescribed at a Sacramentall Feast .

Pro.

Leaning and lying may shew vs how Christ ministred his Supper .

Sitting is none example . For hee sat not , if Beza , if See afore . §. 7. p. 67. Vilerius , if the vulgar Geneua annotation afore cited , say true .

And if , because standing in some Churches is prescribed at the sacramentall feast , it is to be esteemed indifferent , then is kneeling so to be deemed , because the most and best reformed Churches appoint kneeling to be the seemliest gesture to be vsed at the sacrament .

What haue you more to say ?

Schis .

Againe , it doth not follow , that because Christ vsed a gesture fitter for eating in his time , in stead of a gesture prescribed vpon occasion , it is therefore lawfull to vse a gesture nothing answerable to eating , and that taken out of the synagogue of Antichrist ( as though the 1. Cor. 14. 36. word of God came out of it , or to it onely ) instead of a gesture most answerable to eating , and purposely vsed by Christ at the institution of the Sacrament .

Pro.

Will you not leaue charging of Christ with violating and breaking of Gods ordinance by vsing a gesture not fitter for eating in his time ; refusing a gesture prescribed vpon occasion , in Gods eyes fittest for the Iewish Church ?

Which thing though our Sauiour neither might , nor would doe : yet is it free for vs Christians and all Churches , to vse such gestures at the Communion , as are fittest for the daies and countries , wherein , and where wee liue .

England and many other Churches purged from the superstition of Poperie , haue made choice of Kneeling ( a site though not answerable to our common eating ( neither is it necessarie it should be ) yet seemliest in our eies for our Eucharisticall , Ecclesiasticall , heauenlie , and spirituall repast with Christ , and his members .

Which Site or gesture , though Antichrist abuse , and Christ that wee read , vsed not yet is it not therefore vnlawfull , except it can bee shewne , that either Christ did forbed it , or commaund another ; or that Christians eithermay not at all , or cannot vse that well , which in the synagogue of Antichrist hath beene abused .

Schism .

So that notwithstanding all that is said for Kneeling , his Maiestie ( vpon whom the burthen as of this gesture : so of other ceremonies is laide ) may remember , that Hezekiah appointed Leuites in the 2. Chro. 29. 25. house of the Lord with Cymbals , &c. according to the commaundement of Dauid , and Gad the Kinges Seer , and Nathan the Prophet , for the commandement was by the hand of the Lord , and by the hand of his Prophets .

Pro.

Whatsoeuer you haue said , yet haue you not hitherto prooued , the Kneeling in question to be vnlawfull ; and therefore cannot conclude the same to bee not indifferent , nor to bee enioyned by our King .

As for his Maiestie , like a worthie Hezekiah , hee hath appointed Leuites in the houses of the Lord , who doe performe their dueties together both at publique prayer , hearing of Gods word , ministring , and communicating in the Sacraments , according to the commaundement of blessed Elizabeth , and the aduice of her Seers , the Prelates and Clergie of the Realme , and all correspondent vnto the reuealed will and Counsell of God .

Sch.

Withal , his highnes is to consider , if kneeling were the most conuenient gesture , & best beseeming the holy comunion , our Lord and Master would not haue Sitten downe of purpose at his last supper .

Pro.

Your selfe haue acknowledged this Kneeling to be the most solemne signe of reuerence , which what it doeth differ from the most reuerend gesture , hee is sharpe sighted that can discerne , and so best beseeming the holy Communion in our iudgement , and country .

Howsoeuer our Lord and Master ministred this his Supper , he ministred the same in most decent , orderly , and reuerend manner , yet not binding vs to his example , as knowing that is comely in one Country , which is not so in another ; and meete for the time wherein hee liued , and instituted the Sacrament , which though lawfull , is not so conuenient for after times and all places where his Church , or part thereof should reside . When Christ therefore in these things hath left vs free , let no man bring vs into a new bondage .

Schis .

And ( let his Maiesty remember and consider ) that Ahaz was deceiued in deeming the Altar at Damascus 2. Kin. 16. 10 , 12 , 14 , 15. more honourable for Gods seruice , then the Altar of Lord .

Pro.

When you prooue that God hath appointed the site of Sitting to bee the onely gesture for the receiuing of the Communion in his Church , as Altars were prescribed by God for his worshippe at Ierusalem ; and that the site of Kneeling at the said Communion is as vnlawfull , as were the Altars at Ierusalem , made after the fashion of the Altar at Damascus ; and lastly that wee in the Church of England commit Idolatrie by our Kneeling , as did the Iewes vpon their new made Altars , then let both King Iames bee taken for an Ahaz , and his loyall and obedient Subiects for Idolaters : in the space you are to bee taken for an egregious deprauer both of his sacred Maiestie , and of the Church of God vnder his Empire and Gouernement

SECT. 11.

Whether Kneeling at the Communion as much is to be abhorred , as the worshipping of Images .

Schis .

I Haue said that which may be sufficient to a man reasonable , and not contentious against the institution of Kneeling for supposed reuerence in regard of God .

Pro.

You haue said a great deale more then enough to the same purpose ; but no whit for the satisfaction of any indifferent and reasonable man , studious of the Churches quiet , and desirous of the truth .

Schis .

It remaineth that somewhat be said against the institution of kneeling , for reuerence in regard of bread and wine ; which neede not be much .

Pro.

Whatsoeuer you shall say , it is but too much in a needelesse contention . You haue beene told , that wee Kneele not , neither bee to Kneele in regard of bread and wine .

Schis .

Verily no sound Protestant of any knowledge will affirme it , but rather presently consider , that if kneeling be instituted for reuerence in regard of bread and wine , it must be either because they represent the body and blood of Christ , though remaining bread and wine touching their substance . And then for like reason , we may worship the crucifixe , and image of God , as the Papistes doe .

Pro.

True .

Schis .

Or this reuerence is done to bread and wine , because Christ is reallie , bodily , and locally , though inuisiblie present in them , either by transubstantiation , according to the mind of the Papists : or of consubstantiation , according to the heresie of the Lutherans .

Pro.

The Church of England , and members of the same , haue in equall detestation both of the Transubstantion of the Papists , and the Consubstantiation of the Lutherans .

Schis .

Then it must needs follow that if wee abiure these heresies of Papists , and Lutherans , we must also abhor idolatrous and superstitious Kneeling , their daughter and Nurse .

Pro.

Wee abhorre idolatrous and superstitious kneeling from our hearts , but not kneeling . Our kneeling is neither superstitious , nor idolatrous .

Schis .

We neuer heard of kneeling before transubstantiation was hatched in the sygnagoue of Antichrist : so that Reliques of Rome . fol. 93. & 99. Ans. to M. Iewels chal. fol. 110. immediatly after Pope Innocent decreed transubstantiation , Pope Honorius decreed kneeling . Therefore if Harding doth graunt , that it is not well to kneele , but in regard of a real , and bodilie presence , a sound Protestant should infer , But I detest your reall presence : Therefore Iabhorre your idolatrous kneeling .

Pro.

We are to regard not so much who ordained kneeling at the first , or when it was established , and why : as who commands it now , and the vse thereof , which we take to be verie good , profitable , and necessarie .

What though Harding doth say , that wee doe not well to kneele , but in regard of a reall , and bodilie presence : doe wee therefore ill which kneele , hauing no such regard ?

And though you tell vs a thousand times wee doe ill in kneeling , because the Papists in kneeling doe adore the the bread , and wine : doe wee therefore ill , which abhorre the Papists both doctrine , and adoration ?

Therefore whereas Harding doth grant , that it is not well to kneele , but in regard of a real , and bodily presence : and yee , Schismatikes , doe say , and maintaine , that wee doe ill to kneele , not because wee doe , but for that the Papists ( in regard of a certaine perswasion they haue of a bodily , and real presence ) doe adore Bread , and wine : wee hold both them and you to bee much out of the way ; them for condemning our kneeling , because it is not in adoration of bread and wine ; you , for condemning our said Kneeling , which is without all regard of such adoration .

SECT. 12.

Whether kneeling at the holy Communion bee a shew of euill , and the greatest scandall .

Schis .

WE are to abhorre kneeling .

Pro.

What , all kneeling ?

Schis .

I meane kneeling at the Lords Supper ; as in my proposition is expressed .

Pro.

Why so ? For hitherto haue you giuen no sufficient , and satisfying reason , why wee should abhorre it .

Schis .

Because we abhorre the heresies of worshipping of Images , Transubstantiation , and Consubstantiation .

Pro.

Though the heresies of worshipping Images , Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation be detestable : yet is not our Kneeling to be abhorred , vnlesse you can proue vs guilty of those heresies , or the like , which we abhorre , no men more .

Our gesture of Kneeling cannot be ill , when our doctrine is good ; as the same gesture could not be good , if our doctrine were vnsound , and sauor of those heresies ; which you cannot truely say it doth .

You haue afore beene told , that the gesture of it selfe is neither good nor euill , but to bee esteemed according to the doctrine which they professe , and hold , that vse it ; a site , as we vse it in the Church of England , verie comely , and commendable : a gesture as Papists abuse it , most horrable .

Schis .

Not in respect of those heresies onely , but also because it is the shew of the greatest euils that euer were , it is to 2. Thes. 5. 22. be abhorred .

Pro.

Those euils would be shewen .

Schis .

It carieth a shew first of Idolatrie , in worshipping a God made of a piece of bread .

Pro.

Artolatrie is the euill of the Romish Church : there is neither that euill , nor a shew thereof among vs , who acknowledge no breaden God , much lesse giue any shew of adoration vnto bread and wine . The shew of such euils wee condemne ; euen as the euill it selfe wee abhorre .

You haue bin answered againe , and againe , that our adoration in Kneeling is to our God in heauen , not to his creatures on earth , nor to Christ in them , or transubstantiated into them : which because wee do not , the Papists afore mentioned , viz. Harding would not haue vs to Kneele , because we adore not what they doe , which did you conscionably remember , would remoue this vncharitable suspition out of your head , that our Kneeling carrieth a shew of Artolatrie , grosse Idolatry . This therefore is but an vniust surmize of yours .

What is the next euill , euen the great euill , that it beareth a shew of ?

Euen our communion with Antichrist rather than with Christ .

To communicate with Antichrist , is not reuerently and religiously to kneele at the holy Communion ; but to communicate in the doctrine , and superstitious worship Crusad● from Rome , Anno 1588. professed , and vsed in the Church of Rome . Herein wee communicate not with the Papists ; nor they with vs .

They say that our Protestants are Amalakites , and Heretikes ; Test Rhe. an . Acts. 28. 22. our doctrine , heresie ; and that they which so cal it , and that in the worst part that can be , and in the worst sence that euer was , doth rightly and iustly ; and that we Rossaeus , learnedly confuted by D. Sutcliff , in his decath . & arth . Ec. l. 2. p. 454. are Paganis & Turcis deteriores , worser then Turkes and Pagans .

We said of them , that their religion is rebellion ; their faith is faction ; their doctrine , false , and erronious ; their seruing of God , superstitious and idolatrous ; all their Pub. prayer 5 Nouemb. doctrine , and worship , blasphemous , and derogatorie in an high degree to the glory of God .

Hence haue they separated themselues from vs , and our Churches , by open recusancie ; and wee haue departed from them , and their offices , which they call Apostacie , and vs Schismatickes for so doing .

These things were they duly considered as they ought seriously , me thinkes it should be far from the thought of any man ( professing the same doctrine with vs , and detesting the religion of the synagogue of Rome ) to imagine , that we in kneeling doe communicate with that whorish Church , who are not so seuered in doctrine , and worship , as for our worshipping of God , and doctrine , without all hope of atonement , or reconciliation , separated in body , but in affections much more .

This notwithstanding , were their doctrine and worship as good , as the signes of their deuotion , commendable , whom we do communicate withall in a dumbe ceremony , and in different ( if to kneele at our chiefest prayers , and praisings of God , bee a communicating with the Church of Rome ) wee would also most willingly communicate withall in their worship and doctrine . And we wish and pray , that as we conuert some of their vsages to God his glory : so they may be conuerted vnto the same doctrine , and worship among vs , that with our heart , and forme aswell of doctrine and worship , as ceremonies , wee may glorifie God together in this world .

In the meane while wee shall , and as much doe dislike your sitting ( who are like vs in the maine points of doctrine , ) as we like of their kneeling ( in it one nature considered ) who are most vnlike vs in doctrine , and the true worship of God . For we hold it better to come neere the superstitious Papists ( who make showes of great deuotion at Kneeling ) ; than to prophane persons in sitting at the communion ( a signe of no deuotion , or of very smal ) especially in these dayes , wherein wee are to feare more , the ouerflowing of Atheisme , then th' encrease of superstition .

When wee haue no communion with Antichrist in Idolatrie and false doctrine ; why should you refuse to communicate with vs Christians , because of our kneeling ?

It was the greatest scandal that euer was , or can be .

Kneeling , no not at the communion , is not any scandall in our Church ; sitting is . And if Kneeling bee , it is a scandall taken , not giuen : but your sitting is a scandall both giuen and taken ; and therefore the greatest scandall , whereas the other is none at all .

But seeing you haue sayd it , show why kneeling is the greatest scandall that euer was , or can be ?

It is so in regard of those euils it doth occasionally teach , or confirme .

If our doctrine ( as it doth not ) teacheth no such euils , and heresies , Kneeling of it selfe doth not so much as occasionably teach or confirme them . But our doctrine is most pure , and sound , no Papist can shew ; no Schismatick will say ; no aduersary what-so-euer shall euer proue the contrary . You are answered for this point ; haue you no other thing to say , why our Kneeling is so scandalous , yea the greatest scandall that euer was , or can be ?

Yes , it is so also in regard of multitudes ( indeed the most part of the people ) either not sufficiently instructed in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments , and therefore carried with a blind zeale , learned by tradition ; or corrupted ( more or lesse ) with the leauen of Popery .

We are sure , and all the world will witnesse , that Puritas doctrinae viget in Anglia , true religion flourisheth in England , & the people at no time was euer so diligently and soundly taught , both what to beleeue , & how to liue , as they are at this day , and for these many yeeres together haue beene in our Church . If multitudes not-with-standing remaine yet blind , and ignorant , it is the fault either of their owne dulnesse , that cannot ; or negligence that will not ; or sinnes , that they shall not profit by the word . The care of their gouernors hath beene great and singular , that they might grow vp and increase in all godly knowledge and affections , especially in the Sacrament .

Therefore if any , or many , either be not sufficiently instructed in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments ; or be corrupted ( more or lesse ) with the leauen of Popery , what is all this to the church of England , which both desireth and ordereth ( so farre as in her is ) that all may be instructed , & that sufficiently in the right vnderstanding , and vse of the Sacraments ; and also both teacheth the doctrine of Christ very substantially , and administreth the Sacraments , most sincerely ?

Lay not the faults , and corruptions of the multitude vpon the Church of England , and her lawes .

The vulgar people , for a great part , in regarde of their weakenesse , are endangered by this gesture , either groslie to commit the idolatry of Papists , or to haue a superstitious estimation of the outward elements .

The vulgar people would neuer haue those thoughts did not either our aduersaries the Papists , poison them with Popish conceits ( cleane contrary to the purport & meaning of the church of England ) ; or you Schismatikes enforme them , that we either commit Idolatry , or make show that we so do , by our Kneeling : but all of you most falsly and slanderously .

The gesture as it is appointed , doth endanger them no whit , but it is partly the Papists suggestions , that they must not Kneele , vnlesse they doe adore the Sacrament ( which yet are the signes of the most ignorant among them ) ; and partly our schismaticall whisperings , that the people do adore , or make show of adoring bread and wine when they do Kneele , that doth endanger the people , and trouble vs all , making the multitude for a great part , eyther open Recusants , because they may not adore ; or dangerous sectaries , in that they will not Kneele , which they thinke to be idolatrous adoration .

The rather ( encline the people to Popery ) because by the 21. Canon it is prouided , that no bread and wine newly brought , shall be vsed , but first the words of Institution shall bee rehearsed , when the said bread and wine be present vpon the Communion table . As if the words were incantations , and the table like an Altar which sanctifieth the sacrifice .

Kinde and naturall children will lesson , and extenuate their mothers fault , but neuer aggrauate her offences , much lesse raise slanders of her when shee deserues none . Yee are most vnkinde to your Mother , the church of England , which hath conceiued , and tenderly fed you with the food of Gods word , and refreshed you with the heauenly comforts of his Sacraments .

This our mother and the holy Sacrament will haue vs put in minde , both who is the author of those holy mysteries ; and why they are instituted , and all to raise vp in vs a more reuerend respect of those sacred signes , when shee doth nothing but well , and to our singular good , shall we vnkindly turne her good directions , and instructions into euill , and say she is faultie , when she deserueth praise ? shee would haue vs to approach vnto the holy Supper , as to an heauenly banquet ; you belike would haue vs thether to repaire as vnto a common feast . Is shee that inspireth vs with diuine thoughts , or you rather which receiue , or would haue vs to resort vnto the supper , as vnto a common feast ; shee enioying the diuine words of institution , you leauing them quite out as if we were but at a ciuill , and homely dinner or supper , faultie ?

And what herein doth she contrary to Gods word ? or differing from the example of Christ , who took bread , and wine , and before hee distributed them , or his Disciples did eate , gaue thanks , and shewed what they signified , and why instituted ?

Tell what in the words of our booke , is erronious ? What in the forme superstitious ? If you cannot be ashamed to tearme such diuine wordes Incantations , which are holy instructions , ministring necessary and diuine meditations vnto our selues , and making the table , yea our Altar , ( and all there-vppon ) most holy vnto the Lord , without which , or the like , they differ not from things common , and prophane tables .

Your words be reproachfull both to the holy , and to the Church of England .

May not this promise seeme ( at least to the simple ) to make way at least to the Popish consecration ?

You would belike haue vs blindely to come , and take the Sacrament , as we do our ordinary food ; or if we vse any words , though neuer so heauenly we do Popishly consecrate , in your opinion .

The words and prayers vttered do make the bread , & wine , holy , which before were common : This is consecration , we acknowledge , yet not Popish but Christian

How grieuous a sin it is to scandalize the weak , may Math. 18. 6. appeare by the words of Christ , Viz: who-soeuer shall offend one of these little ones , it were better for him , that a mill-stone were hanged about his necke , and that hee were drowned in the depth of the Sea .

Our sauiour speaketh against giuing offence by open breach of Gods holy commandements or any of them .

If you can shew any precept of God either by the Churches enioyning vs to kneele ; or by our kneeling violated , then you may iustly conclude vs to be subiect to the mentioned cursse . If you cannot , whosoeuer is or be offended , weake or strong , their offence rashly is assumed , not giuen ; and they be more to feare the wrath of God , for being offended without cause , then wee for kneeling , hauing no word of God to the contrary .

Saint Paule likewise doth say , if meat offend my 1. Cor. 8. 13. brother , I will eate no flesh while the world standeth that I may not offend my brother .

The like are you , and I , and all true Christians to say , touching all things in our power to do , or leaue vndone : but when by authority we are directed ( as at the receiuing of the Sacramaent we are ) then are we not for offending of others ( pretending them-selues to be weake ) to leaue that vndone , which wee are inioyned to performe . Disobedience is as the sin of witch-craft , offensiue to all good mindes : obedience vnto lawfull Iniunctions , may be offensiue either to some weake , or wicked persons , but neuer-the-lesse to be yeelded ( except God say to the contrary ) without scruple of conscience .

What an offence , or scandall is , the Apostle sheweth in the same chap. viz. The occasion of falling to the weake .

As how ?

The particular offence he speaketh of is this : Notwithstanding the Ghospell was preached at conuenient 1. Cor. 13. 7. 10. time , and that by the Apostles : yet many wanted knowledge , & euen vnto that time , did eate as a thing sacrifised vnto an Idol : of whome if any should see a man indued with knowledge sit at table in the Idolls Temple , his weake consciences might occasinatly be emboldened to eate those things which are sacrificed to Idols .

This instance of yours is to be regarded .

The Apostle speaketh of Idolatries , or meates not consecrated , but euen sacrificed vnto Idols . This meate so abused , the Apostle condemneth not , as vnlawfull to bee eaten of Christians . But hee blameth those Christians who in the Idols temple among Idolaters did eate the same meate , to the offence of all Christians , especially of the weake .

Now be it that Kneeling ( as the meate sacrificed vnto Idols ) hath beene abused of Papists : yet as meate so sacrificed might bee both sold in the market , and bought , and eaten of Christians priuately , or without offence : so the gesture of Kneeling , abused by Idolaters may be well vsed of Christians .

Which may show how farre you Schismatickes are out of the way of truth , and from the minde of the first and primitiue Christians ; who thinke that nothing eyther deuised , or abused by Papists , may or can bee well vsed in reformed Churches ; and therefore doe vtterly condemne among other things , this our Kneeling .

But if you finde vs to kneele in the idols temple offending thereby the weake , and making them to fall , and confirming of Idolaters , then deserue wee the blame which those temporizers at Corinth deseruedly did incurre . But this you charge vs not withall , vnlesse you thinke our Temples to bee Idols houses , and all communicants to be idolaters .

Besides , it was free for Christians to eate , or not to eate those meates , so it were not with offence to the weake : but it is not free for vs of the Church of England , to Kneele , or not to Kneele at the holy Communion . For whether we please the weake , or offend them , we are necessarily to kneele : otherwise , if we kneele not , wee may please the weake you speake of , but shall offend our gouernors , and peaceable men , whom we ought to please : and if we Kneele , wee shall offend the weake , but please others , whome we are more to regarde .

In this case therefore wherein wee cannot choose but offend some or other , wee choose rather to offend the weake then the strong ; priuate then publick persons ; a few , than an whole state ; yea ; wee choose rather to doe our duties conscionably , then to offend ; for we offend not in obeying lawfull directions ; but they offend , whosoeuer they be , which take offence afore it is giuen .

If Saul would neuer eate flesh , rather then he would Ibid. vers 12. offend in this case , because in so doing , hee should sinne against Christ ; how dare a Christian hauing knowledge , Kneele in the presence of any , who for want of knowledge , receiues superstitiouslie ?

In his case ( not in this case about Kneeling ) Paul would not offend . This case of ours , is not Pauls case .

For touching meates Paul was at liberty to eate , or not to eate ; neither God , nor by his authority , man hauing forbidden meate , or any kinde of meate ▪ but lawfull power hath imposed this order of Kneeling vpon our shoulders : whereas he therefore was free , we are not .

Where orders well were established , who euer was more pliant to obserue them ? who a greater aduersarie to those which would not obey , and fulfill them , then this Apostle Paul , without respect of any seeming to bee weake ?

In this case , where orders bee set downe for the well ordering of Christians , said he euer he would neuer keep them , then thereby offend the weake ? Nay , he both prescribed orders to be kept , not to bee contemned ; and reproued them which would not keepe them , but were 1. Cor. 11. 16. contentious .

Therefore not after the example onely of the Apostle , but according to the commandement also of God , we may yeeld obedience to the higher powers , and their lawfull Impositions , about matters in their owne nature ( till they bee either prescribed , or prohibited ) indifferent : such is our Kneeling at the holy Table , where in charitie we are to thinke none superstitiously doe receiue ; and if some do , it is their priuate offence , no publike fault of the whole Church .

Furthermore , when you grant that some persons very religiously receiue , when others superstitiously doe so : see you not how with one , and the same breath , you graunt the said Kneeling to bee a gesture indifferent ( which before you denied ) abused by some , well vsed , and without sinne by others : Which ouer-throweth vtterly your assertion , namely that Kneeling in the very act of receiuing the Sacramentall Bread and wine in the holy communion cannot be without sinne .

Say not then hence forward how dare a Christian man hauing knowledge kneele in the presence of any , who for want of knowledge receiue superstitiously ? for such a Christian dare kneele , & hauing good warrant for his so doing , may work much good thereby his exemplary Kneeling teaching both the weake to cast away their vncharitable , and rash supitions of their neighbours , and bretheren for Kneeling ( who doubt lesse , if by none ouert act or speech they declare the contrary ( receiue religiously ) ; & superstitious Communicants ( if any such repaire vnto the Communion ) to conuert their Kneeling vnto the glory of God , which others ( whome through ignorance & infirmity they do fauor but too much ) do superstitiously , & idolatrously abuse in th' Romish sinagogue .

Of which sort of superstitious receiuers , seeing ther bee so many euen vntill this houre , and euer likely to be , that wee know not when and where to Communicate without some such , either old or young : It followeth that if sitting at the Table in the holy Temple , could not bee without sinne in the Apostles time , so Kneeling cannot bee without sinne in these dayes , when the number of the faithfull teachers bee much decreased , but of Papists much increased , & by our Kneeling much confirmed in their bread worship .

Conceiue better of the Communicants of our Church , then that the number of them which superstitiously do receiue , should bee so great , least the same measure be ministred to you , Schismatikes , which you offer to others , & men likewise take offence at your sitting , as at a gesture in our churches very vnseemely & signe of no rightly deuout , & religious , but prophane persons ; the number of which more apparently doth increase , then doth the number of superstitious Communicants . And so surmises being had by some that such & such be superstitious , because they Kneele ; others be vain & prophane for that they sit ; & weakenes of mind on either & both sides alledged for their Recusancie to ioyne either with those superstitions , or these prophane ; yea with them which bee neither prophane , nor superstitous , the vnion of our Churche by this new Recusancie and vterly refusing the Communion , be dissolued and broken .

But did none giue offence to weake consciences by their sitting , as you say ( though you name no man ) many doe by Kneeling : yet doth it not follow , that because Christians could not sit lawfully at table in the Idols temple and sinne not , therefore none can without sinne kneele in our churches , and at the holy Communion . For our churches bee not Idols temples ; our Tables in them not Idols tables ; our communicants , not the worst of them , no not so much as in show ( but onely by surmise , and vnbrotherly suspitions ) superstitions . If you thinke the contrary , great is your sinne , and heauie the accompt you shall make for so thinking .

That teachers , especially faithfull teachers decrease , I hope not , sure I am is not so notorious as that Papists do encrease , and the encreasing of these to bee the diminution of the superstitions you speake of . But that being encreased , they are confirmed , yea much confirmed in their bread-worship , by our Kneeling , is soone said , but not prooued , nor will euer be iustified .

If his Maiesties iudgement bee sound that the surplice Sum of the confer . pa. 74. is not to be worne , if Heathenish men were conuersant among vs , who thereby might take occasion to bee strengthned in their Paganisme : shall we by our corrupt practise of Kneeling , strengthen the Papists , who swarme among vs , in their idolatry ?

Wee doubt not of the soundnesse and sinceritie of our Kings iudgement . Hee conceiueth better of Papists , though they bee too bad , then of Heathens and Pagans . And therefore albeit hee would not suffer the Surplice to bee worne , if Heathenish men were conuersant among vs , least they should be strengthened in their Paganisme ; yet doth hee not onely suffer but enioyne the said Surplice to bee worne of the holy Ministers , albeit Papists do swarme in this kingdome . Thereby not strengthening them as by a Popish relique in their Poperie , but letting them , and all men see that hee condemneth Sum of the confer . pa. 75. nothing in vse among them , that may bee well vsed . And yet had you marked what followeth ( proceeding from the soundnesse , and profoundnesse of his most excellent iugdement , ) you might haue seene that his Highnesse vtterly condemneth not all the doctrine , and ceremonies in the Church of Rome taught , and vsed , but those ceremonies onely , and doctrines , which are corrupt , sauoring of error , and superstition , not of the puritie and veritie of the primitiue Christians . There should you read and perceiue his constant and resolute opinion to bee , that no Church ought further to separate it selfe from the church of Rome either in doctrine , or ceremonie , than shee hath departed from her selfe , when she was in her flourishing and best estate , and from Christ , her Lord and head .

Among which corruptions his Maiesty neuer counted either the surplice , by you mentioned ; or the Kneeling betweene vs controuerted , to be .

But whatsoeuer corruptions haue bin either in Kneeling , or the surplice : yet the said corruptions being taken away , and these appointed , now reformed to the seruice of God : with what face can you call either our practise in kneeling to bee corrupt ; or the Papists , swarming among vs , to be confirmed in their bread worship by our kneeling which is nothing Popish ?

If the State doth well , in ordering the Sacrament Rub. after the confer . sect. 5. to be administred in vsuall bread , to tale away superstition , whereas Christ did by occasion , minister in vnleauened bread ; shall not we do ill , in teaching , or confirming superstition by kneeling , whereas Christ did of purpose minister sitting ?

Doth the State well in changing the bread ? speake Schismatick , for your words are equiuocal ? If wel ( therein yet varying from the purpose of Christ ) then may you see the weakenesse of your fourth argument afore alledged , binding vs necessarily to the example of Christ , as to a Persian law , which may not be broken . For he ministred with vnleauened , & we solemnize the Supper with bread vsuall , and leauened , and yet in so doing sinne not .

The same State which changed vnleauened into vsual , and bread leauened , in place of your pretended sitting , hath appointed Kneeling at the Communion : changing the site by the same authority , which she did the bread , thereby doing well in both or neither .

Which Kneeling also would the same State haue altered into sitting , or some other seemly and comly gesture , had it beene perswaded , that the same Kneeling , either had , or should offend the mindes of Christian communicants , as it knew the sight of vnleauened Waser Cakes would displease the godly , and be dishonorable to God .

Finally , if we either teach , or confirme superstition by our kneeling , we do surely therein very ill : but that wee so do is yet in question , not granted by me , nor will euer be prooued by you .

Wee swarue no whit from the minde and purpose , whatsoeuer wee doe from the example of Christ by our Kneeling : and therefore in Kneeling do not sinne .

Setting vp of Images in Churches , onely to be Laie mens bookes , is by authority condemned , because they are as stumbling blockes in the way of the blind .

So that they haue beene , are still , and will bee here-after Hom against peril of Idol . p. 132. Leuit. 19. 14. worshipped by ignorant persons . Is not Kneeling as scandalous ? How can it then be iustified ?

Iustly haue Images ( those Lay-mens bookes ) by authority beene condemned , I thinke you will affirme as much , Gods word is directly against such Images . Now could you make good your words , that Kneeling is as scandalous now , as Images sometime were in our Churches , I would be of your minde , that it is to bee condemned as Images were .

That Images , the Images I meane , that you speake of , are such stumbling blocks , I doe read both in the bookes of God , and otherwise in most godly and approoued writers old and new : but that kneeling at the Communion is as scandalous as Images , and therefore to be condemned , is doctrine proceeding newly from the braine of of you Schismaticks , neuer afore heard of among the people of God .

SECTION . 13.

Whether the Kings commandement to Kneele maketh Kneeling to be no sinne .

IT is said that the Kings commandement taketh away scandall , in things indifferent .

What say you herevnto ?

It may be auerred , that this is a begging of a question , except it be proued by the word , that Kneeling may bee without sinne , & that though it be an institution of man , contrary to the example of Christ , a signe of communion rather with Antichrist & his synagogue of Rome , them with Christ , and his church , it haue no proportion with Sacramentall eating , and haue beene , is , and will be bread-worship .

That wee may kneele at the Communion with-out sinne ; and that the said Kneeling is neither a meere institution of man ; nor contrary to the example of Christ ; nor a signe of any Communion at all with Antichrist , & his synagogue ; nor hinders a whit the Sacramentall eating of Christ ; nor finally with vs euer hath beene , is , or ( I hope ) shall bee any Bread-worship , hath sufficiently beene prooued by vndeniable and strong arguments . And therefore go on , prooue that it may not by the authority of the King be enioyned .

Suppose that in it self it were as indifferent , as was eating of flesh sacrificed to an Idol , not in the Idols temple , but at a priuat table , where no weake ones were , in the Apostles 1. Cor. 10. 27. 28. time : yet how doth the Kings commandement take away scandall from Kneeling in publicke places ? doth it make all so sure that none can be scandalized ? or , if that cannot be , doth it take away guiltinesse from the scandalizer , as if all the blame of scandalizing were in the Kings commandement ▪ Surely it must be in the former , or else in the latter it cannot be .

Our Kneeling , euen in the publicke churches , is no scandalizing , but accidentally , as any good , euen the best thing may bee . And therefore neither doth the King offend in commanding , nor wee offend in obeying ; and so is there neither scandall , nor scandalizer , nor any iustly scandalized by kneeling ; for neither doth Kneeling , nor the Kneeler , nor the King commanding to kneele , deserue any blame . You take things for granted , which will not be confessed . Here is no offence giuen in any respect at all .

By scandalizing a weake brother perrisheth : Of 1. Cor: 811. Numb. 35. 3. 2. Sam. 11. 25. 16. 17. whose blood the scandalizer is guiltie , as Ioab was of Vriabs blood , notwith-standing the Kings commandement .

What of this ? Insinuate you all Kneelers to be like bloody Ioabs ? & our King commanding vs to Kneele to like Dauid when hee commanded that Vriah should bee murdered ? O vndutifull , vngodly , and inconsiderate imputations .

Here his Maiestie , knowne to be of a gentle disposition , and to haue learned , yea professed better things in Scotland , is most-humbly prayed , to take the word ( King ) as spoken in imitation , and vnder-stood of Cantor : who knowne to be of a violent disposition , did carry matters in the conuocation , and published Canons not orderly , and fully concluded , as some of his Suffragane Prelates reported .

His Maiestie liued in Scotland a long-while , and many years among Puritanes , yet was neuer any Puritane him-selfe .

The most-reuerend Father , whome you tearme in derision Sum ▪ of the confer : P. 20. 72. Cantor ; did neuer any thing about the publike affaires of the Church , but vpon good aduise , and lawfull consent ; nor published any Canons for the ordering of the Church , but the soueraigne person of the kingdome , euen his Maiestie him-selfe , and that according to the Lawes and Statutes of the Realme , and vnder his great Seale ratified them all .

These reproachfull words do but wound his Maiestie in the sides of his officers .

Go to your matter , leaue them if you haue any more to say .

It is impossible , that the Kings commandement should make all so sure , that none can bee scandalized , the general ignorance of the people , the dispotition of the ignorant vnto superstition , the old leauen of Poperie not purged , & the multiplying of Papists all well considered .

All these thinges considered , Kneeling at the communion , vses according to th' ordinance of the Church of England , and none otherwise , is no Scandall giuen .

Nay rather it is likely , that by the commandement , the Scandall should bee the greater , especially in regard of the 27. Canon , where ministers are commanded , vnder paine of suspension , not wittingly to administer the Sacraments to any , but to such as Kneele .

The Canon is necessary , and to the preseruation of vnitie , and the preuenting of hatefull confusions , which otherwise too-offensiuely would spring , & spread ouer the kingdome . Dangerous maladies , must haue eating and biting medicines .

Gods ministers may thanke you Schismatikes for this seuere discipline .

They that wil not receiue Gods sacraments but as they list , must by seuerity be driuen to take them as they should .

It is a good rule in Phisicke , stay the beginnings . The Philosophers do say how Mod●eus error in principio , fit maximus in fine . That error which at the last was greatest , at the first was but a little one : in Diuinitie we finde the same to bee most true . For the foulest , and most horrible heresies sprang but of petty Schismatikes at the first .

They must in time meete with , & cut of those Shismes , that would not haue the Church pestered and molested with heretikes .

This very discourse of ours may put the world in minde , what hideous & horrible fancies this Recusancie of yours to Kneele , & leauing the vnion of the Church , and Communion with vs in the sacraments ( because yee will not kneele ) hath already ingendred . Your errors here-about are foule and monstrous , and yet worser are behinde : for the preuenting whereof we are on all sides , from the King to the lowest , and meanest subiect , to set to our helping hands .

Neither be you , nor any other men to thinke that punishment seuere , which is rather necessarily , for a publike good ; then willingly inflicted .

May not simple and superstitious persons take occasion thus to argue ? Why should Kneeling be thus vrged by authority , if the sacramental signing of the body , and blood of Christ , bee no more to be reuerenced then water applyed in Baptizing children ? seeing that is also a sanctified signe of Christ his blood , that washeth away our sinnes and iniquity ?

If they will by you be aduised , the simple and superstitious shall so argue ; and thereby fall into a loathing of our manner of receiuing the sacrament .

But you , and they must be answered , how the church of England hath the two sacraments in equall price and estimation , conceiuing highly , and religiously of them both , but ascribing diuine adoration , yea none adoration at all either vnto the Bread , & wine of the one , or vnto the water of the other : albeit the water signifieth Christ his blood that washeth away our sins & iniquity & the bread & wine , the body and blood of Christ , shed and giuen for mans redemption .

But for-so-much as we are baptized infants , when wee know not what wee do ; and are men , old or young when wee partake of the other ; also that the very Bread and Wine , exhibited to these , senses , and handes of all communicants , do sacramentally represent the body , and bloud of our Lord ; the Ministers deliuerie of them , Gods very offering his fauours in Christ vnto vs ; the bread broken , his body dead ; the wine , his bloud shed vpon the Crosse ; lastly , the distributing both of the wine and bread , Christ his benefits , and Gods blessings imparted and communicated vnto all Communicants , whereof they be remembred so oft as they receiue , in all places of the world , and to the worlds end : what Christian seeing , and seriously considering these and the like things , but will bee excited with all due submission and religious reuerence to come vnto the participation , and receiuing of such celestiall fauours ? Not because it is either vnlawfull , or vndecent with like reuerence to receiue the other Sacrament , but for that partly our tendernesse is such , because of our yeares , that wee cannot ; and partly the necessity is not so vrgent , that wee need to Kneele . But doubtlesse were wee of good yeares , and did know what we go about , when we are to be baptized , as we know what we do ( such is my perswasion , and ought to be of vs all , of all persons communicating at the Supper ) when wee come to the table of the Lord , doubtlesse the Lord would not be displeased , did we Kneele at Baptisme , then our assured perswasion is , that hee is not offended with our Kneeling at his Supper .

Therefore whereas all worthy communicants , euen in duty , and conscience are bound with this signe of reuerence , to receiue these holy and heauenly mysteries ; and yet many persons , in one respect or other , will not bend , nor bow their Knees , but in no case Kneele ; if authoritie doe force such stubborne and wilfull persons to doe that necessarily , which of themselues voluntarily they should performe , neither doth authoritie transgresse their bounds ; nor do they sinne , that obay their command .

And so let this satisfie those simple and superstitious persons , and be an answer vnto you .

THE CONCLVSION . S.

TO conclude , if kneeling in the very act of taking , eating , and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine , in the holy Communion , be an institution of man .

It is no meere institution of man .

If it be the taking of Gods name in vaine , when it is without all respect of reuerence .

It is done with all respect of reuerence in the Church of England .

If God be not honored thereby , except it be according to his will .

It is according to his will : and so God thereby is honored .

If it swarue from the example of Christ his sitting , and therefore deserueth no praise .

Though it swarue from the example , yet is it against no commandement of Christ . And therefore not to bee condemned .

If it bee a prouoking sinne to reiect the exemplary sitting of Christ , whereby wee show our selues to bee in the Communion with Christ , and the reformed churches ; and to retaine Kneeling , which for bread-worship , ought to bee banished , and whereby wee seeme to bee in communion with Antichrist and his synagogue .

Wee reiect not the exemplary sitting of Christ ; neither should we sit , haue we by it the more fellowship with Christ , and his Churches reformed , whose fellowship ( which without sitting , praised be God , we doe enioy ) is in partaking of spirituall graces ; in obeying and doing his precepts ; and in professing of Christian religion , iointly and with one heart , and minde ? neither by our Kneeling haue we either the lesse with Christ , & his true churches , or the more familiaritie and communion with Antichrist , and his synagogue . In which respect neither is Kneeling to be banished out of our churches , because of the Papists , bread-worship ; nor do the kneelers by kneeling commit a prouoking sinne , yea any sinne at all .

If it obscureth that reioycing familiaritie in , and with Christ , which the Lords supper signifieth .

At the Lords supper Kneeling obscureth not , but furthereth our familiaritie , and ioy with Christ , and Christians .

If the argument from Christ his example be made the stronger in that he sat of purpose .

Christ his purposely sitting ( whatsoeuer it was ) maketh not our purposely kneeling to be vnlawfull .

If the lawfulnesse of choosing a fitter time than the euening , cannot iustifie our reiecting Christ his exemplary sitting .

By the same authority Gods people may leaue the example of Christ in sitting ( if hee did sit ) whereby they left his example of ministring the supper in the euening , vnlesse by some order and decree he had enioyned his example for our necessary imitation .

If the bittes of prayer , ioyned with the words of institution do make Kneeling the more sinfull .

Euery bit , yea and euery crumme of that prayer ( vsed with sound faith and deuotion ) doth make our kneeling the more acceptable vnto God .

If kneeling bee not as indifferent , as standing , nor best beseeming the holy communion ; and the King must appoint nothing but by the hand of the Lord .

It is as indifferent and more conuenient than standing , and in our iudgment and perswasion , best beseeming the communion , and appointed euen by God himselfe by the hand of our Lord the King .

If wee ought to abhorre Kneeling as wee abhorre Images ; transubstantiation , and consubstantiation ?

Kneeling is a pure ceremonie of our Church voide of all superstition and Idolatry whatsoeuer ; and our kneelers the most sincere worshippers of God ; and neither themselues , nor their Kneeling to be abhorred .

If to scandalize bee greeuouslie to sinne , and kneeling be a showe of the greatest euils , and withall the greatest scandall .

There is no scandall giuen by kneeling ; neither is kneeling euill ; nor show of euill , much lesse of the greatest euils , or the greatest scandall .

If it bee a begging of the question to affirme kneeling to be indifferent , and the Kings commandement ( so called ) both rather encrease , than lesson scandall by kneeling .

Kneeling hath not as yet beene showne to bee of it selfe vnlawfull ; and otherwise hath beene prooued to bee indifferent : in which consideration the Kings commandement ( so knowne ) should rather encrease our desire , than lesson our care , to receiue the communion kneeling .

It may bee auerred , that Kneeling in the very act of taking , eating , and drinking this Sacramentall bread and wine , in the holy Communion , cannot bee without sinne .

It hath , may , and will bee auerred , that Kneeling in the very acte of taking , eating , and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion , may be , and is vsed without sinne , yea without all showe of sinne , Gods name be praised .

Amen .