An ansvvere to Master Iohn De Albines, notable discourse against heresies (as his frendes call his booke) compiled by Thomas Spark pastor of Blechley in the county of Buck

A Notable discourse , plainely and truely discussing , who be the right ministers of the Catholique Church : writen against Caluin and his disciples , by one Master Iohn de Albine , called de Seres , Archdeacon of Tolossa in France . Duaci . per Iohannem Bellerum . 1575 .

The first Chapter .

CALVIN your Patriarch doth lay to our charge a great and an outragious boldnesse , saying ( according to his opinion ) that we haue introduced or taken in hand the ministery of Iesus Christ , without being called to it by him that did institute Aaron in the saied estate . And because that he himselfe can better then I expresse his complaint or accusation , I thinke it best to set forth his owne writings , which , according to his disciples opinions , are of great force & vertue . His words , as you may read , are these . Seeing that the Papists heare S. Paul say , Jn his booke of Jnsti . cap. 18. Art. 58. Hebr. 5. that no person ought to take vpon him , or vsurpe the name and the honour of Priesthood , but he that is called to it as Aaron was . And that Iesus Christ tooke it not vpon himselfe , but did obey the vocation of his father , either they ought to shew , that God is the Author and institutour of their priesthood , or els they must confesse , that they are not called of God , seeing that of their owne boldenes they haue taken it in hande .

These are Caluins wordes , by the which the reader may gather , that Caluin doth enioyne vs to render him an accoumpt of our vocation . And although that it be so , L Si quis ad si , ad leg . Jul. de nil . publ. &c. that by the Ciuill law one ought to try the right of the possession , before he come to demaunde it , & the spoyle ( as we are to him and his fellowes , as touching our Temples and reuenues in many places ) ought to be restored againe before the suite proceede : Yet , releasing this that the law doeth alowe vs , we are content to answere to his demaunde : adding this request thereto , that both you that are his disciples , and he , doe make readie your papers to answere vs the like as touching yours . But before I proceede in mine answere ( vnder correction of a man that thinkes to haue such good eies ) me seemeth , that his argument is but very simple , to say , that if we cannot shew , that God is the authour of our Priesthoode , that we should be constrained to confesse , that it is not of God , a a Sophistry in taking that as spoken of your maner of calling to your Priesthood , which he spoke of the Priesthoode it selfe . Numb. 16. 2. Pa●al . 26. seeing that without being called , we take it vpon vs . For , what reason is there , I pray you , in this ? for although it were so , that of our owne priuate power and authority , without being called , wee should take it vpon vs : it should not follow by that , that it is not of God . For by that reason one might say , that God was not the authour of the priesthoode of Aaron , seeing that Dathan , Abyron , and Ozias tooke it vpon them of their owne boldnes ; the which is not true . And as touching this , that he sayeth , that our order of Priesthood is not of God , we will proue that false in b b But that place you find not in this booke . some other place : but at this time , we must treat of our vocation , to answere him and his complices , how and by what vertue we exercise our ministry .

c c This I deny , that you come to your calling in this sort , for neither is there right succession amongst your Bishops and Pastours , nor continuance in that trueth which yet you say only & neuer proue . We are called to this estate , according to the ordinary way : that is to say , by the right succession of Bishops and Pastours , and by the continuance of one Catholique faith , deriued from the Apostles to our daies , without the interruption of it vniuersally : d d That trueth indeede hath alwaies continued , and shall by the meanes of faithfull teachers : but neither with you , nor by meanes of your teachers , is at all proued by there places . Math. 5. Ephes. 4. for in diuers places of the world it hath beene euer cleare and certaine , manifestly shining like the light set on the table , to giue light to all those of the house , and not vnder the bushell , to be shadowed with darkenes . Saint Paul , e e Peruse the place & you shal finde , that though Paul reckon vp there those ministeries which should fully be sufficient for the Church , yet he once mentioneth not your gretest Prelac●es . Howsoeuer therfore it may be as you hold they be , necessary and most necessary for the pompe of your Church , that so the better she might answere her patterne , Apoc 17. yet thereby we may see Christs Church shall & may grow to her perfection & yet neuer bee acqua●nted with them . after that he had recited by order the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie , I meane , of the Apostles , Prophets and Euangelists , he doeth declare at the last the cause why they were instituted , being for the edification of the mistical body of Christ , the which is the Catholique Church , vntil ( saieth he ) that in the vnity of faith we go to meete him . He taketh his similitude of many that come from diuerse waies , and meete all in one way . f f Indeede hee plainely there teacheth , tha● there shall bee alwaies to that ende , teachers in he Church , but hee saieth not , that they shall so succeede one another either in person or place , a● you would ●eene thereupon to builde . For no such line of continuall , locall or personall succession , from his time to this day , can be produced . And thus hee meanes , that the spiritual edification of the Church , ordeined of Bishops , Pastours and Doctours , shall endure , vntill that the Gospell be preached through all nations . By the effect of the which Gospell , both French , Spanish , English , Greeke , Persian , Arabian , Latines , & Barbares , with many other nations which were too iedi●● to name , haue met together , hauing of great antiquity all one kinde of Catholicke faith , by the Apostles and their successours for euer . As the some of God , before he suffred , did attaine & arriue to the perfection of his age : euen so , his misticall body of the Church shall continue in this world , vntill it be perfect in his members , and that the number of the chosen be accomplished . And euen as a materiall building cannot be perfectly atchieued without g g We see and heare of many great & goodly buildings in the ende perfited , in building whereof there haue beene many and sometimes long intermission . continuance of workemen and masons : euen so the spirituall building of the Church cannot be atchieued , without the succession of Bi●●ops and Pastours , preaching , or causing the word of God to be preached , which is the very spiritual building , the which hath beene euer common and visible in the Church , according to the prophecie of Esay . h h Sap. ●1. say you , wel hit : the place is in Esay 62. Sap. 61 . ●ho meaning to declare the care that God taketh as touching the pre●eruation of his Church , hee did say , as it were representing the state of Hierusalem . I haue established and ordeyned i i But few such haue beene in your time of succession , these many yeares . watchmen vpon he walles , the which shall neuer holde their peace , neither day ●or night . These watchmen are those , that haue announced to vs our sal●ation : They are the trumpets of Iesus Christ , which neuer haue left their ●ounding in the true Church of God , from the Apostles time vnto this ●resent day .

AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN de Albines discourse against heresies , called and accounted by his frendes , A notable discourse to that purpose ; made by Thomas Sparke , Pastour of Blechley in the countie of Buck. .1591 . Chapter first .

CALVIN we esteeme and account of , as of a rare & singular minister of Christ , & his writings ( as they well deserue ) wee thinke reuerently of ; and you haue tried them to be of great force & power , to shake the very grounds and pillars of your Babilonical building : but our Patriarch we neither account nor cal him , though you in your third word take it , and therefore set it downe for graunted that we doe . It seemeth , you thinke scorne , that hee should charge your Priesthoode not to bee of God , and so to cal you to an account of your vocation . Indeede I cannot blame you , that it grieueth you , that that should be called into question , seeing it is a thing you haue bragged on so long , & haue gained by ( at the hands of the blind & ignorant ) both al the credit & wealth you haue , especially seing also , that what words soeuer you vse to countenance the matter , yet you shall neuer be able to iustifie it . Howbeit , as though not onely you were able to answere Caluin to the full in this point : but also as though there were either some great impiety , or vanity ( at the least ) in his words , you recite them twise , admonishing your Reader , that they are his wordes . Be it that they be so , what haue you saied either to argue the least folly in them , or to iustifie your vocation in such sort , as therein he proueth you must , or els it cannot be of God ? First you woulde proue Caluin in these wordes to offer you wrong , in that out of the 5 to the Hebr. he gathereth , that vnlesse you can proue God to be the authour of your vocation , it cannot be of God : because the Ciuill law prescribeth , that one should proue his right of possession , before he demaunde it , and that he should restore the spoile , before the suit proceede . But who seeth not , that that which he alleadgeth out of the 5 to the Hebr. doth more iustifie his demaunde , that either you must shew , that god is the authour of your Priesthoode , or els confesse , that you are not called of God : then anie thing that you haue noted out of the Ciuil law , can proue , that he offereth you any wrong in calling for this at your hands . Because you are an Archdeacon , it should seeme , that you would faine that men should thinke ( to the ende you may be iudged the fitter man to execute your office ) that you haue some skill in the Ciuill lawe , in that you are thus ready , euen at the first to cite it . For to small force else it serueth , for neither is your axiome so general , but that it notwithstanding rightly vnderstoode , a man may lawfully and orderly proceede , and yet first demaunde his right to possession , and after timely enough proue his demaunde thereunto to be both honest and iust : neither doth Caluin or any of vs claime any right of possession of your massing Priesthoode , that you neede bid vs first proue our right thereunto . For we detest it as a thing Antichristian and vtterly vnlawfull , and we holde that no sound Christian will euer plead for any right thereunto . And as for the spoile of your temples and reuenneues , that you would haue vs to restore before the suite betwixt vs proceede : we say againe , that both law and reason tesseth you , that before you should so peremptorily call for restitution , you should proue the wrong . Which , neither you , nor none of your side ( though to bewray what grieueth you most , namely the parting away from your fat morsels , vnlesse your bare accusation were straight a conuiction ) haue yet once proued against vs , and therefore the action may proceede well enough against you , for any thing , that your Ciuil law can helpe you . We are in possession ( we graunt ) of Churches and reuennues , that heretofore you held in sundry places , but herein wee haue not wronged you at al , howsoeuer you count it a spoiling of you . For first , through the mercy of God to his Church , & of his iustice towards you ( your sins being growen ripe ) by the light of his word , he made it appeare , that you were wrong withholders of these things , in that they being founded , and giuen for the maintenance of a holy Ministery , for the sound feeding of peoples soules , you vsed them for the support of an Antichristian Ministery , to poison the soules of men with his deuilish doctrine and vsages : & therefore , God secondly stirred vp the harts of Princes , and Christian magistrates , orderly to dispossesse you thereof , & to giue them vnto such , as would vse them better . Yea so far of is it , that either they or we can iustly be said herein to haue done you any wrong , or spoiled you , that wee are able to proue , that you getting , and keeping them in your handes , for the cause aforesaid , most sacrilegiously spoiled the true Church of her reuenues , conuerting them to the maintenance of the seruice of Antichrist , to the most dangerous robbing of the peoples soules , of the foode of life due vnto them therefore , and for this cause you had wrong , that you were let alone with the possession of them so long as you were .

Now , whereas before you will proceede to answere Caluins demaund , as a sharpe Logician , you say , his argument seemeth vnto you very simple , to say , that if you cannot shew , that God is the authour of your Priesthood , then you must confesse , that it is not of God , seeing that without being called , you take it vpon you . In reciting thus his words , you wilfully alter them , and frame his argument otherwise , then he made it . For he saied not ( you your selfe being witnes in setting downe his words before ) seeing that without being called yee take it vpon you , but seing of their own boldnes ( saith he , speaking of you ) they haue taken it in hand ( hauing therein relation to the Priesthood it selfe ) which if you cannot proue ( as you neuer shal ) to be instituted of God , it must needs follow , not only , that it is not of God , but that you haue taken it in hand of your owne boldnes , as he saieth , & so by most necessary consequent , your calling cannot be of God . So that he reasoneth not , from your running into your priesthood of your selues without a calling ( as by reciting his argument , altering his words as I haue saied , you would seeme to vnderstand him ) to proue your Priesthood not to be of God : but from the vnlawfulnes of your Priesthood it selfe . For he was not so simple ( I warrant you ) but he knew as wel as you , that many haue , doe and wil hereafter intrude themselues , vpon an office of Gods owne ordinance : and that , notwithstanding their lacke of lawful calling thereunto , the office yet remaineth holy , lawful and good . And therefore , he most plainly laboureth , to proue your popish calling to your Priesthoode vnlawful , whatsoeuer you make of your ordinary calling thereunto , because the Priesthoode it selfe is not of God , & therfore such a thing , as you haue taken in hand of your owne heads , what ordinary calling soeuer by man you haue thereunto . And therefore , as plainly as may be , he telleth you , by warrant of the 5. to the He. that either you must shew , that God is the authour & institutour of your Priesthood , or els you must confesse , that it is not of God , but a thing taken in hand , or deuised o● your own , boldnes . And this to haue beene his purpose and drift , vnles your eies be very bad , and your wits yet worse , you could not chuse but perceiue . But this argument ( belike ) was to strong for you , & therefore ( as in the like case , it is a common tricke with the men of your faction ) you thought best to frame you another weake enough , and so fit for your strength ; which whiles you haue labored to confute , you haue fought but with your owne shadow , & slaine a childe of your owne begetting . Your examples therefore of Dathan , Abiram & Ozias , you may take home againe , & keepe them in store , vntil you haue more neede of them . In the meane time remember , that though you haue answered your owne argument , yet Caluins standeth in his ful force stil against you . For though it follow not , you haue entruded your selues , therefore the office , wherupon you haue intruded , is not of God , because these , which you named , intruded themselues vpon the lawful Priesthoode of Aaron : yet I hope how simple soeuer ( and worthily ) this argument of your owne framing seemed vnto you , that you wil graunt , that ther is both strength & force in this , which is Caluins indeed : your Priesthoode it selfe is but a bare ordinance , and deuise of man , and hath not God for the authour thereof ; therefore whatsoeuer your calling bee thereunto , it is vnlawfull , and not of God . If you would not haue this conclusion verified of your calling , it is not enough for you to saie , that you came to your Priesthood according to the ordinarie way : nay it is not enough , to proue it , which yet you go not about ; for commonly not onelie for this , but for all thinges els of importance through your booke , your bolde assertion is your onelie proofe . For if the office it selfe be not of God , but a plant , which the heauenly father hath not planted , then howsoeuer you come vnto it , your calling cannot bee of God . A vaine thing therefore is it in you , here or any where els , to spend words and time to shew , how you attaine your Priesthood , hauing not anie where first proued , the Priesthood it selfe to be of God . That is the thing , that Caluin telleth you you must shew , or els you must confesse your calling is not of God , seing it is but to an office , of your owne boldnes deuised and taken in hand . And yet this being a thing , which ( to iustifie your calling ) it stood you vpon most , & in the best maner you could , to haue proued , yea without the profe wherof , all that euer you haue saied , or can say of neuer so ordinarie a comming thereunto , is merelie vaine & friuolous : yet you saie , you will not meddle with it here at this time , but you put it of to another place , not once finding time & place in this your discourse to speake a word of it againe . Wherein at the first entrance , in the eies of the wise , you haue giuen your Priesthood a greater wound , then al that you haue saied , concerning the lawfulnes of your vocation thereunto , can euer heale vp againe . For this thing being the most pertinent , & material thing , that could be ( your drift and purpose in this discourse considered ) for you to haue laboured about , as about the soule of your cause , to giue al the rest life : how could you perswade your selfe , but that in thus shifting of this , though so thrust vpon you by your owne citing of Caluins words , but that euerie one would straight iudge , that you did it not , because you had no will to haue proued it , but because you feared , that your skil would not serue you substantially to doe it ? And therefore in pollicy you thought it more wisdome , thus to passe it ouer , as though you could saie enough thereof if you list , then by entring into it , to lay open your weakenes to your frends , in so great a matter , at your first entrance into your booke .

Howsoeuer you haue thought it the safest waie in this place , to say nothing hereof , & for sauing your credit to make shew , as though you would say enough in some other : in the mean time , euen here , the nature of your popish Priesthood considered , I confidentlie aduouch , that neither you , nor all you togither , can euer proue indeede , that it is of God . For the Scripture teacheth vs , that Christ hath an euerlasting Priesthood , and that he executed that office here , and doth stil there , where he is , for his Church so perfectlie , that he hath this prerogatiue , that he needeth no successors to continue his office , as the Priests of Aaron had , nor anie other either to offer any new , or to iterate that sacrifice , which he offred himselfe for the saluation of man , he hath offred one so perfect , & so perfectly once for al : He. 7.23.24 . & 10 , 10. &c. which prerogatiues the massing Priesthoode robbeth him of , first , in that they will bee his successours , in the office of Priesthoode : and then , in that they take vpon them , to offer him again in sacrifice to his father , for the sinnes ( as they say ) both of the quick & dead : & most blasphemously make themselues , in their offering him againe to his father , mediators betwixt him and his father , praying him ( as it appeareth in there masse-book ) that he would fauourably looke vpon , and receiue those hoasts , which they there offer vnto him , for the soules of such and such . Ex missâ pro defunctis , ex secretis . Werefore , I dare be bolde to say , that so far of is it , that their Priesthoode is of Gods ordinaunce , that most certainly it is of Sathans owne deuising , and is most iniurious to the death and passion of Christ , and therefore Antichristian . Howbeit , seeing you haue left Caluins assertion , that it is not of God ; standing without any refutation , and so are contented ( vntil you better aduise your selfe , what to say against it , to let it stand still ) in the meane season to render vs account , of your comming vnto it , vpon condition , that wee will make ready our papers , when you haue answered vs , to answere you , how we come by our Ministery : I am content to accept of this your condition , and so to heare first , what you can say , for the iustifying of your vocation , and after when and where you cal for it , to yeeld you an account of ours . But then in the meane time I must put you in minde , and pray the gentle reader to marke it , that for any thing you haue saied yet , Caluins assertion against your office of Priesthoode it selfe , that it is not of God , standeth in full force .

You write , that you are called to this estate according to the ordinary way , that is ( say you ) by the right succession of Bishops & pastours , and by the continuance of one catholique faith , deriued from the Apostles to our daies , without the interruption of it vniuersally . This you say indeede , but what haue you either here , or els where in this your notable discourse ( for so either you or your frends cal it ) brought vs to proue this ? you cite here Mat. 5. Eph. 4. & a place out of Esay , with is there Cap. 62.6 . ( though in your booke it be quoted Sap. 61. ) but neither any of these , nor al these togither do proue your saying to be tru . For taking the places in your own sence , the things therby proued are only these , first , that the tru Catholick faith hath alwaies so shined , that it hath giuen light at al times in one place or other to them within the house , that is , that be within the true Catholick Church & to such as be neare thereunto and within the sight thereof : and that Christ wil haue continually euen vntill his second comming , and vntill his Church bee growen to her ful perfection , his trueth continued in his Church , by faythfull Pastours and Ministers : and to this ende serueth also ( in your opinion ) your similitude taken from a materiall building , which cannot be perfected without continuance of workemen vntill it bee done : which yet caryeth with it a dissimilitude , euen in the thing wherein you resemble it vnto the Church . For we see by daily experience , that in material buildings , if they be great , there are often tymes great and many interruptions , and ceasings of the workemen , and yet in the ende the building well enough prefected . But bee it that these places proue these things , and that your vnapt similitude hath no vnfitnes in it , what is all this to the purpose , doth it hereupon follow , that you come to your offices of Priests & Bishops as you haue saied ? Because Christ hath alwaies & will to the ende preserue and continue the light of his trueth , by the faithful ministery of some in his church ( which is a thing which we alwaies haue constantly & firmely beleeued to be true , because he hath had , hath , and wil euer vnto the ende haue , a holy catholicke Church , against which the gates of hel neither hath at any time , doeth , nor euer shall , vniuersally preuaile ) shall it hereupon follow , that therefore your Priests & Bishops are the men , whom Christ hath alwaies and yet doth vse to this ende ? or that amongst them , there hath alwaies beene the right succession in one Catholicke faith ? Their is none so simple , but he may easily see , that there is no necessary coherence betwixt this antecedent and consequent . For Christ might haue , and indeede hath had ( as I shew after in my fourth chapter ) by whom effectually from time to time , he hath both continued his Church and his trueth therein , though your Bishops & Priests haue a long time shewed themselues his most deadly Antichristian enemies , in opposing themselues with main & might against both his Church & truth . The matter you haue vndertaken to shew vs is , by what right you exercise your ministery , or how you were called to that estate : for that , as a thing more easy , you rather haue chosen to doe , then to proue your office of Priesthood it selfe to be of God , though indeede this be the more material point , & which you should rather haue taken vpon you to proue : but that it seemeth , like a prudent man , you tendered more your owne credit , which you foresaw , was like to take a foile , if you should haue attempted to doe this , which by no colour or shew of sound reason you could , then the credit of your cause , which you could not but foresee , must needs lye in the dust , this being left vnproued , whatsoeuer you should say concerning the other . But seeing whatsoeuer become of your cause , it hath pleased you , like a wise man , to slip from vnder this burden , which was to heauy for you , & now that only thing that we must expect at your hands at this time , is , to shew that your maner of comming vnto them yet is honest , good and lawful : I pray you , in good earnest , consider and weigh with mee a little , what you haue saied to proue this . Al you say , is ( as I noted before ) that you are called by the ordinary way thereunto , that is , as you expound your selfe , by the right succession of Bishops & pastors , & by the continuance of one Catholick faith , deriued from the Apostles to our daies , without interruption of it vniuersally : nothing at al you haue added , that so much as sauoreth of any proofe of any one point of this your assertion , & therfore seing your word , is , nor ought to be of more credit with vs , then the bare partial word of an aduersary in his own case , your frends might haue thought themselues euen asmuch beholden to you , if you had as wel giuen ouer the taking in hand , to proue their maner of comming to their offices to be of God , as you haue , to proue the offices themselues to be of his ordinance . If you had ment or at least could in earnest haue proued the thing you vndertooke , you should haue first made it appeare , what is requisite by Gods ordinance in the lawfull outward calling of the ministers of his Church , & then haue shewed vs , that your Popes , Cardinals , Bishops & priests haue alwaies & doe stil so come by their offices : but this was to haue dealt too plainely , and in following of this course , you knew wel enough , you should be enforced too too openly to betray the badnes of your cause . For who is there of any learning and reading , but he knoweth , that the ordinary way whereby these your officers haue come now these many 100 yeares to their roomes , is as farre differing from the ordinary waie appointed by Christ for his ministers to come to their places by , as the east is from the west . You therefore , like a wilie and subtle fox , thought it no good pollicie , this way to seeke to iustifie your calling or maner of comming to your prelacies , & yet rather then you would seeme to be able to say no more for your maner of comming thereunto , then for the offices themselues you were disposed , you thought it good , thus brauely and braggingly to set a face vpon it in these words , as though you could saie enough : and that makes your fault the greater . You haue no sooner vttered this your bare and bold assertion , which were somewhat , if you could throughlie proue it , but you are quite slipt & gone into the proofe of another matter , which though you proue , yet your assertion is neuer the more thereby strengthened and confirmed . For though we graunt you ( which alwaies we do most willingly ) that the Church of Christ hath alwaies had in her from her first natiuitie , and shall haue vnto the ende , successiuely in all ages in one place or other , such as haue shewed the trueth faithfully vnto others , as haue shined as lights in their daies set vpon a candlesticke , and as haue painefully laboured and shall still , to gather together the Saints , to bring them to vnity and perfection in Christ : yet neither doeth it follow , that these haue bene so visible , apparent & glorious in the eies of al men , & that they haue so orderly succeeded one another , and had their ordination one of another in one and selfesame place , and after one and selfesame maner , nor that hereupon it should follow , that this hauing bene in any sort that then by and by it must be granted , that yours haue entred the ordinarie way , that they are right Bishops and Pastors , haue had right succession alwaies one to an other , and haue also , which is the greatest thing of al , had without interruption alwaies the sound catholicke faith continued amongst them . For , in some sort , these might be in al ages and times , & that effectuallie to serue to these ends so far forth , as stoode with Gods prouidence , & was according to the variable disposition therof , sufficient to continue his holy catholick Church , according to his good pleasure , & yet not in that visible , apparent & glorious maner , that you pretend : & some he might haue to enter into their callings to doe this the ordinary way , though your Bishops & Priestes haue not so entred , be not right Bishops and Priests , and be such as are destitute of al right ecclesiastical succession , both in respect of persons , places , times , & trueth . And yet most euident it is to euery reader of anie iudgement , that al your proofes in this Chapter , & in the rest that follow , proue onely , that God alwaies hath had , hath & will haue a Church , and therin alwaies some teachers of the trueth , and some learners and embraces of it . And this the Lord hath had , hath and euer wil haue , though your ordinary waie of comming to your places , though your Bishops and Pastors , your personal and locall , visible and glorious succession , and your supposed Catholicke truth had neuer beene seene or heard of in the world . Yea far more apparently and gloriouslie should we haue seene the trueth hereof , if this ordinary waie of yours , these Bishops and Priestes of yours , this succession and counterfeyght trueth of yours , had not in the iust iudgement of God , for the sinnes of the world beene the stop & let thereof . And yet you either were so simple your selfe , or else you thought you should onely meete with so simple a Reader , as would account the prouing of one of these , thus seuered and disioyned the one from the other , the iust and due confirmation of the other . But I cannot be perswaded , that such was your owne simplicity , as once to imagine , that the fift of Mathew , Ephes. 4 , Esaie. 62. or any other proofe that you vse to that ende , did serue at all to proue your entraunce to haue bene as you saied : I am therefore flat of this minde , and so must euery man of any wit and discretion be ( vnlesse you will giue vs leaue to thinke , that you had neither of both in thus reasoning ) that this was your Romish and Popish cunning herein , finding your selfe vnable to proue any of these foure points , that your entrance is by the ordinary waie , that your Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests , that you haue had from the Apostles right succession , and that also now and alwaies you haue beene in possession of the Catholick trueth : you thought it good , confidently , as though their were no controuersie to be made with you about any of these , to aduouch , that you had all these to iustifie your maner of comming to your offices . And so perswading your selfe that you should meete with such franke and liberall Readers , as would easily , vpon this your bolde begging , graunt you all these foure for an almes , taking them for giuen , as sure as though you had them already in your beggers budget , euen for and at the very first asking , you goe on as you doe , supposing that your Reader is already wonne to this , to imagine that all and euery place of scripture that speakes of right Bishops and pastours , and of their lawful calling & succeeding one another from age to age in the trueth , must needes be vnderstoode of yours . But with this conceit & phantesy of yours , howsoeuer you may preuaile with men of your owne humour and complexion , that haue their wits benummed & blundered with the drunken & enchaunted cup of the garish whoar of Babylon , whiles you take this course , you set your selfe but forth vpon a scaffolde , to bee laught at and derided , as one that hath neither sounde Religion , nor common reason left him , of those that are indeede wise , sober and godly .

Seeing therefore you haue saied so much and proued so little , well enough might I euen with the detection , in this sort , of your vanity , leaue you as sufficiently answered , for any thing you haue saied concerning this point . But because I haue not taken in ●and , onely so to answere you , as might be sufficient to take awaie ●●e power and force from any thing you haue set downe in this ●our discourse , to winne any more to bee of your iudgement then ●ee alreadie , but also so , as , by the grace of God , may bee likely to ●ake your owne frendes ashamed of your dealing in their cause , 〈◊〉 will both in this , & throughout your booke , for the further bene●it of the Reader , take the paines to follow you from steppe to steppe ●how crooked soeuer your pathes be ) & so disclose & lay open before ●im , not onely the vanity of your proceeding , but also the vntrueth ●nd grosse impietie of your words and sayings .

Wherefore , whereas to iustify your maner of comming by your ●ffices , you first saie you come thereunto by the ordinarie way , the Reader is to consider , that through the ambiguttie of your speech , you seeke wilfullie to abuse him . For you could not bee so simple , but you knewe and remembred well enough , that as there is a lawfull ordinarie waie ordeined and allowed by God , and therefore accordinglie practised in his Church , whereby his Church officers should enter into their callings ( whereby if you could haue proued yours to haue come to theirs , you had indeede iustifyed their entrance thereupon ) so haue there beene in tract of time , through the boldnes of men to alter Gods ordinance , and therein to preferre the way deuised by themselues , before that which the Lord himselfe had prescribed , many waies both inuented and practised , which though they haue by custome and long continuance of time growen to be too ordinarie , yet for all that , they haue beene and yet are too bad : by anie of which ( though in respect of one or other of them you maie truelie saie yours haue entred by the ordinarie waie ) yet you haue saied nothing to proue their maner of entrance to be holie , good , and of God . But to speake plainelie , and yet no more then I can proue out of your owne Cronicles , your verie Bishops of Rome , of whose lawfull and ordinarie calling you vse to brag most , and of whose lawfull entrance and calling ( if they bee such heades of the Church as you pretend ) the lawfull calling and authoritie of all other inferiour Church officers is deriued and depends , for manie hundreth yeares , a number of them haue so got to their Prelacies , that vnlesse you account those in your sence to haue come to their places by the ordinarie waie , that in compassing of them haue broken all good order both of God and man , I wonder with what face you durst thus indefinitely & generally say of all your Bishops and pastours , that they haue bene called to their estate by the ordinary way . For furious braules , monstrous and long contentious , force of armes , and cruell bloudshed , haue beene the ordinary waies , whereby a great multitude of them haue entered , as namely and for example , these : Symachus , Boniface the second , Pelagius the first , Boniface the third , Conon , Sergius the first , Zozimus , Paul the first , Constantine the second , Eugenius the first , Hadrian the second , Formosus , Leo , Benedict , Gelasius the second , Honorius the second , Innocent the second , Gregorie the tenth , Nicholas the third , Clement the fifth , Vrban the sixth , and sundry others . Bribery also hath beene the ordinary way , whereby many of them haue clymed into that chaire , as namely , Iohn 13. Boniface the 7. Gregory the sixth , Siluester the third , and most of late daies . Nicromancy , art magicke , and plaine barganing with the deuill for it , haue beene ordinary waies also , whereby a shamefull sort of them haue compasse● that place . For , from Syluester the second , vnto Gregory the seuenth , including them , there being an eighteene or nineteene Popes , your owne Cardinal Benno shewes , that the greater number of them so came to their roomes , and since wee reade , that Alexander the sixth got it the same way . It appeares also in the saied Benno , that the greater number of the Popes from Syluester the second , to Gregory the seuenth , were poisoned , or at least by violent means dispatched by such , as for themselues & their frends , thought good so to make the waie readier thereunto , for themselues or some others whom they fancied . And to the same ende , other authours write , that very many of them beside , haue in like maner from time to time since , beene sodenly vnpoped , that others the sooner might bee popt into their roomes . Yea Genebrard a late writer , and a great frend to the Roman Religion and Bishops , in his fourth booke and tenth age in his Cronology , by the plaine euidence of the truth , is inforced to confesse , that from the yeare 884. to the yeare 1048. that is , from Iohn the eighth to Leo the 9.50 . Popes all in a rowe successiuely entred not by the dore , but by the posterne gate , whom he calleth Apostaticall monsters , and in whom hee graunts that lawfull Apostolicke succession was disordered . And he that reades Luitprand lib. 3. cap. 12. & 13. shall finde testified by him , that the two famous harlottes Theodora the mother , & Marozia the daughter , were in their times the makers and marrers , and in effect the only setters vp and dispatchers againe of Popes at their pleasures . Whereupon it came to ●asse ( as it there appeares ) that Pope Christopher , hauing shoo●ed out his predecessour Leo , by the ayde of his concubines , he ●as quickly shouldred out againe , by one Sergius , who got the ●lace from him , as partly by much brawling and fighting , ●o especially by the helpe and support of his paramour Marozia .

Againe ( as he shewes ) hence was it , that Pope Laudo Iohn the ●leuenths father by adultery , was by the meanes of Theodora his sonnes paramour deposed , that so shee might bring him nearer her , from Rauenna to Rome : whom againe her daughter Marozia , hauing found the meanes to smoother , she , without consent either of people , or cleargy , set vp in his roome a bastard of hirs , which she had by Pope Sergius . And though he were shortly after thrust out again , yet by the helpe of his olde frende Marozia , the matter was so handled , that both Leo the sixth , and Stephen the seuenth , his successours , by poison were quickely rid out of the way , and so hee ( called Iohn the twelth ) recouered his place againe . Likewise her sonne Albericus sonne Iohn the thirteenth , as he came of a filthy generation , so being a most filthy man himselfe , he had his preferment to that place by the like meanes . And in like sort we read , that Vrban the second came to that roome , by the meanes of his louer Mathilda . Also craft and subtlety in supplanting and cosening their predecessours , hath aduanced many to the Papacy . For Vigilius got it by crafty accusing of Syluerius , so procuring his deposition , to make way for himselfe thereunto . By the same dore of craft and cosenage entred Stephen the second , Martin the second , Boniface the eight , and many others . And when these haue beene the ordinary waies , whereby such a rabble of these your most holy fathers , and highest Prelates haue come to their estates , is there any likelihoode to the contrary , but that their inferiours of all sorts , in their times learned of them to enter in like maner ? For what reason is there , that a man should not be resolued , that downe from the head so corrupted , ran corruption ouer all the body , euen down to the lowest Hedge-priest ? And in very deed , euer since these haue beene the ordinary waies , whereby these your head Prelates haue compassed their places , all stories , to the euerlasting shame of your Synagog , do most vsually & notoriously shew , how that there was nothing more ordinarie , then for the next great Prelates vnder them ( as Cardinalles , Bishoppes and Archbishoppes ) to come to those their dignities , by the like meanes or by worse , as namely for fauour borne them for the sinne not to be named , for that they were the Popes bastards , or for some other such like 〈◊〉 honest cause . For Innocent the eighth Pope of that name , was first made Prelate of Sauō , then of Melphit , & then Secretary to Pope Sixtus , and Cardinall of Cicilia for his rare beauty , & not for any other good quality in him , and Iulius the third of very late daies promoted none sooner , then young wanton Ganymedes , especially one of that sort , a very lad called Innocentius , to be Cardinal , whom he had long filthily fansied , & then still did . And to bee a Popes Bastar● either in the first or second degree , hath of long time beene a rea● way to such preferments . And therefore we read , that Iohn the eleuenth Pope Laudoes Bastard , by the helpe of Theodora his paramour , not onely ( as I haue saied ) in the end became Pope , but before easily got first to be made Bishop of Bononia , and then Archbishop of Rauenna . Caesareus a bastarde of Alexander the sixt , for this was by him made Cardinall , & Paul the third stretched his fauour so f●● in this regard , that hee made one Alexander sonne to his bastarde sonne Petrus Aloysius , and one Ascanius sonne to his bastarde daughter Constantia , Cardinals . And the writers of his life doe him wrong , vnles he himselfe before he was Pope , obteyned the Cardinals hat , & to be Bishop of Hostia , by deliuering his sister Iulia Farnesia to be concubine to Alexander the sixt . Sure I am , that our Cronicles are much troubled , and a very great part therof consists , in displaying the brawles , contentions , and dangerous consequents , that haue arisen ( sometime to the shaking both of our Kings estate and kingdomes also ) about the election here of the Archbishops of Canterbury . Yea in them it appeares , that few elections either of them , or of any other great bishops of this lande in these latter daies of the iollity and ruffe of the Roman Prelates and their Romish & Antichristian Hierarchy and religion , haue past here in England of late yeares , whiles your kingdome stoode , but thereabout either there hath bene notorious brawles and contentions amongst the electours or els some other famous disorder and corruption , and likewise we may be sure it fel out in other places and countries . And as for your ordinary Priests , for the most part , al the world is witnes , so doltish and ignorant they haue beene , that there was no ordinary way for them to enter , but that Balaam was the Bishop , Iudas the patrone , & they were affectioned as Simon Magus . In Boniface the ninthes time , he had an Antipope called Benedict , but howsoeuer otherwise ●hey raged and raued one against another , in this they both agreed , ●o make open sale and marchandize of all Church liuinges , the ●●le began the fifth of Nouember in the fifth year of Bonifaces reigne ●●e that would giue most spedde best , yea his couetousnesse was so ●otorious herein , as that Theodoricus writing his life , confesseth ●ot onely thus much , but further , that he had seene one benefice sold ●o many men in one weeke , yea the former sale reuoked , though vn●er seale , and the benefice solde to another , that offred more , the first ●eing well chidden for going about to cosen the holy father for see●ing to get the benefice at an vnderualew : by meanes whereof & as ●ee writeth for that this Pope was before a sturdie yonker but of ●0 . yeares of age when he was chosen Pope , and one so ignoraunt , ●hat he could neither write , sing , nor vnderstand so much latin , as to ●nderstand the ordinary pleading of aduocates : dolts alwaies at his ●ands sped best . And yet this fellow was Pope aboue 200. yeares ●go : whereby though it appeare , that to enter by this dore of Simo●y , be a very ancient ordinary way , for Popish Priests and inferiour Prelates , to enter into their dignities by , yet this is not the ancien●est president they haue : for Vrbanus the sixth Pope before this Gregory the ninth , hauing caused a Cardinall of his in one day , to ●epose , rack , torment and spoile all the Prelates of Cicilia , because they would not aide him , according to his minde , against his Amipope Clement . 7. was by this way easily entreated , within a very short time , to let into their roomes 32. new Bishops , Archbishops & Priests how ignorant he cared not , so that otherwise they would be of his faction and satisfy his humour , as the foresaied authour testifieth . And Platina in the life of Siluester the third , 300. yeares before either of these , to note both the antiquity and dissent of this ordinary way , by occasion of Benedict the ninth his selling of his Papacy to Gregorie the sixth for 1500l. ( as some write ) & many like tricks that he belike had obserued amongst them , through the notorious euidence of the thing , is enforced to write , that then euen the Papacy it selfe was come to that point , that hee that would goe beyond others not in holines of life and learning , but in large giuing and ambition , he onely , the good being oppressed and reiected , should attaine to that degree of dignity : which fashion I would to God sometimes ( saieth hee ) our times had not retained . And when hee hath saied thus , he addeth , but this is but litle , we shall , vnles god preuent it , see hereafter sometimes far worse things . This man liued and florished in the time of Paulus 2. who was Pope aboue 400. yeares after Syluester the third , & surely herein he was , al the world knoweth , both a true reporter and prophet , and since it hath not bee● better , but rather worse , euen from the head to the foote in that kingdome of the Pope . His testimony cannot but presse them of th● Religion and Synogog very much , because it is well knowen , th● hee , both for his office and opinion , was very partiall of that side . Wherefore euen these things considered , euery man seeth , that thou●● it were graunted you , that your Bishops & Priests , haue entred al●● time some ordinary & common way , that yet thereby would arise a ver● slender iustification , of their maner of comming to their offices . Y●● in this case , somewhat further to pose you and to presse you , the r●●der is further to be aduertised , that beside the most ancient and 〈◊〉 pure ordinary way of entring of Church officers , vsed and contin●●● in the primatiue Church , vntil Constantines time at the least , the●● haue since , according to the varietie of times , and diuersitie of the●● states of the Church , bene sundry other things appointed & prescr●bed , by the decrees of sinods & councels , ordinarily to be obserued 〈◊〉 the election & ordination of such officers , which haue most ordinaril● bene broken and neglected , in the entrance vpon their offices , of 〈◊〉 of yours , now these many years . For proofe whereof , I refer the re●der no further , but to the consideration , first of your maner of commi●● to your places , for these last three or foure hundreth years ; & to th●● canons , that your owne frend Gratiam , concerning this matter , h●● hudled together , dist. 61. 62. & 63. for going no further , thereby sh●●● he finde , in that the consent of the Emperour , the assent of the people , the peaceable and orderly election of the cleargie , hath bee● a long time wanting in many of yours , that indeede you cannot tr●ly saie , that such of your Church officers haue entred by any ancient ordinary way , either prescribed by the word , or the ancient canons of the Church , of a long time . Now the election of your Popes is onely by the Cardinals , which to be the ordinarie way of their entrance , was first deuised and enacted in Nicolas the second time ( as it is noted dist. 23. ) which was a 1000. yeares and more after Christ ; and after , vnder Alexander the third , it was further confirmed in a Lateran councell , held in his time about the yeare 117● . Nicolas the first began , & Hadrian the third concluded the quite remouing and shutting out of the Emperour , from their election , which was about the yeare of the Lord 889. Iohn 19. first shut o●● ●he people about the yeare 1003. And so then about 70. yeares after , his decree of Nicolas the second was made . If therefore , including our Bishops of Rome , you meane by the ordinary way of their en●rance , this , decreed by Pope Nicolas the second , then they that ●ere before entred not by that ordinary way . And if you looke v●on his decree well , & the decrees of others since made to back that , ●ou shall finde not halfe the Popes that haue beene since , to haue en●red orderly . Yea in reading of the stories of the Church , the de●rees of the councels , and your owne Canon lawe , though I finde ●t the least , that there hath beene since Constantine , a sixe or seuen ●euerall ordinarie waies , decreed and vsed for their entrance , yet I ●an hardly finde , that three Bishops of Rome succeeding one ano●her immediately , did orderlie in euery respect enter the ordinarie ●●aie , then in force and vse . For whereas I finde , that the Empe●ours and the Princes of Italy , or his deputy in his absence , by cu●tome , their owne right , interest and authority therein , and after by ●he decrees of Hadrian the first , about the yeare 773. and of Leo & Clement in three seuerall councels in their times consented vnto , ●ore a principall stroke therein a great while : yet whiles that was ●ecessary in the ordinarie way of entrance thereunto , I finde , that many entred not onely without their consent , but quite contrary to ●heir mindes , as one may reade in the liues of Pelagius the 2. Stephen the 4. Hadrian the 2. Martin the 2. Hadrian the 3. and diuers o●hers . And likewise , whereas sometimes , as in the time of Constantine the 4. by the Emperours owne consent , other sometime without his consent , as by the decree of Pope Stephen the 4. the Emperour was not to meddle therein , but onely the cleargy & people of Rome , yet euen then the stories shew , that sundry had their entrance , not only not without , but altogether by the meanes of the Emperours , yea after the decree of Hadrian the 3. many yeares . Likewise , though for the auoiding of braules & contentions , in the election of the Roman Prelates , Leo the 8. gaue absolute authority to the Emperour , to chuse the Pope , about the yeare 994. & in Clement the 2. time , vpon that consideration , the Romans themselues also gaue ouer their right therein vnto him , insomuch that besides others , Leo the ninth and Victor the second , had the place by his absolute authority : yet , euen whiles this stoode as the ordinary waie agreed vpon , manie entered otherwise . To bee briefe , I dare confidentlie set it downe , for I am able to proue it by their owne storie writers , how often soeuer they haue varied and altered their ordinarie way of entering vnto that place , sometimes by admitting the Emperours consent thereunto , sometimes by shutting it out quite , sometime by giuing him his due right , and sometime more and sometime lesse , or howsoeuer : in like sort they haue varied both as touching the Clergy , and the people that should haue to deale therein , wherein they haue had as many diuersities as about the former , or finally whatsoeuer concerning other circumstances of their election , they haue thought good to adde or detract from the ordinary way before in force , they haue neither long continued anie one ordinary waie , neither during the time of the continuance thereof , haue they followed inviolably that waie . And as it hath beene with that chiefe Sea of theirs , so hath it bene with other inferiour places , so that no constancie hath beene in anie of their ordinarie waies of entrance , nor yet anie due care either carefully to obserue the canons of the scripture , the canons of the Church , or their owne decrees made for that purpose . In their late councell of Trent , by sundry canons and Chapters therein set downe , it appeares , that they there assembled , considering what horrible abuses there had beene in the election and ordination of vnfit Bishops and Priests amongst them , thought it most needeful ( to preuent the like for the time to come ) to deuise & to enact sundry holesōe canons , to breed a learned preaching ministrie , and to procure an election and ordination thence forth for them , as free from corruption , as in their wisedomes they could conceaue : but yet who knows not , but that those canons haue since bine and yet are , as carelesly lookt vnto , and herein kept amongst them , as though they had neuer beene made . Wherefore , to conclude this point , let Albine and neuer so many more of them , brag that they enter by the ordinary way , vnles thereby he meane a way that ordinarily is naught and corrupt , he speaketh more then euer he can proue , and so therein hath saied nothing to proue the comming of their Bishops and Priests vnto their places to be lawfull and good .

And yet if we will beleeue him , their Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests , but if it be true , as it must needes bee , that they can not be so , who neither haue a lawfull way of entraunce to their offices , nor yet their offices are themselues of Gods ordinance , then it is apparant euen by that which I haue saied already , that neither their Bishops nor Priestes are right Bishops nor Priests . Their Bishops from the highest to the lowest , by their vsage and practise chalenge and take vnto themselues , an office of another essence and nature , then the office that Christ and his Apostles haue left and prescribed to true Bishops , and so likewise is it with their Priests . For one vniuersall and head Bishop ouer all others ( such as they take their Pope to be ) Christ neuer ordeined , for he made all his Apostles by giuing them all equall , one and selfesame commission , his officers equallie to beare for their times the generall and vniuersall care of ouersight , ruling , ordering and directing his Church ; and to bring it to full perfection , ascending into heauen , when he was disposed this waie in bestowing Church officers vpon his Church , by the ministery of his word and sacraments , to consummate it vnto the ende , besides these , as inferiour ministers , hee gaue onely , as you may read Ephesians the fourth , Euangelists , Prophets , Pastours & teachers , where neither your Popes , Cardinals , nor Masse-priests , are once remembred . The matter wherein the full execution of the off ce of al the ministeries consisteth , that Christ hath left vnto his Church , is , duely & soundly to feede Gods people committed vnto them , with heauenly foode , by painefull and diligent preaching vnto them the word of God , and ministring vnto them the sacraments , and rightly and oderly to gouerne the Churches of Christ , by the administration of ecclesiasticall order and discipline , which are things , that the greatest and fattest in your Romish Synagog , thinke themselues little or no whit at all bound vnto . These things are too base matters for your Popes to be occupied about , their office consists , and therefore they accordingly must busie themselues in other matters : as namely , in making and marring , in setting vp & putting downe seculer Princes , as they call them , in studying by all meanes faire and foule , to mainetaine and to enlarge their authority and patrimony , & in deuising by a thousand waies , though neuer so couetously , tyrannously & insatiably , to gather together infinite sums of money , to buy or to winne by force of armes , great principalities for their bastards , nephews and neeces , to spend in the persecuting & subduing better Christians than themselues , to build sumptuous pallaces , banquetting houses , & temples to shroud idolatry & idols in , costly beutified , the better to intice men for their further aduantage , to commit spirituall whoardome with them . In and about these things , your Popes now , these many 100. yeares haue spent their wits , & all these parts of the world , and all Croniclers of any credit , can and wil testify . If they haue any leasure from these affaires , then they must shewe themselues not to haue beene idle and fruitlesse in deuising some newe ceremonie , in adding some patch or other to their Church seruice , in proclaiming the crosse against the Turke , for the recouery of the holy land , in publishing some Iubile and indulgences , in setting vp some new order of Religious men , for the better support of their kingdome , or at least in plotting and contriuing some conspiracy or trecherous deuise , to supplant and murther some Christian Prince , that hath drawen or is like to draw his people from their Antichristian Religion . And your other Bishops occupation lieth most in blessing with their fingers , in consecrating of their vnholy holie Chrisme , in christening of belles and Churches , in ordering vnorderlie and contrary to their owne canons , of an idolatrous and new found sort of Priests , & in running vp & downe fondly and superstitiously , to minister the sacrament , as they count it , of confirmation : scarse the tythe of them euer had either skill or will to preach . And as for your Cardinals , as they are of an order but of a late deuise , so by their behauiour we can not iudge their office to lie in any thing else , but to serue the Popes turne , for the better setting forth of his magnificence at home , and to bee his agents in forraine kingdomes , the easelier to contriue his purposes their . They are and haue beene a long time ( their first natiuity considered ) notable fellowes to haunt and maintaine the stewes at Rome , and to deuoure and to consume , in ryot , vanity and impiety , all the Bishopricks and benefices that they could heape together , without any care for the good of the people : and the vse of them hath beene , to brawle and to breede scismes in choosing of Popes , and to stur al coales , and to moue euery stone , as fast as they could one after another , to thrust into that place . Now to come to your ordinary Priestes , though the matter of teaching and ministring of sacraments , especiallie was posted ouer vnto them , and vnto Friers , yet either were they not able to doe it , which was the condition of most of them ; or else if they did it , in steade of feeding the people with the milke of Gods word , which onelie Saint Peter warrants to bee without deceit 1. Pet. 2.2 . they fed them , with vaine dreames , fansies , tales and traditions of men . For these onely are the grounds of that which is properly now the Romish Religion . And in very deede , when they were ordered , their especiall businesse appointed for them was , to sacrifice for the quicke and the dead , which is a thing not onely beside the office of anie true minister of Christ , but also directly contrarie , both to their office , and Christs also . For they by warrant expressely from the canonicall scriptures are to teach their people , that Christ himselfe in his owne person once for all , when hee dyed for the redemption of man , offered the sacrifice that for both quicke and deade soly and wholy , fully and effectually must serue the turne for euer , and that in offering this propitiatory sacrifice , he is an euerlasting Priest , and may haue no successour , either to offer another sacrifice , as though this were not sufficient ; or to offer this againe , as though hee had not himselfe offered it well enough . Besides , herein commission is giuen them , directlie to peruert Christes institution of the sacrament of his bodie and bloud . For whereas by the right vse thereof , thereby should bee offered vnto man the bodie broken and bloud shed of Christ , for him to bee fed on , and receiued by him to saluation : by their commission and intention herein , they offer these thinges to God the father . Further , if wee consider their reading vnto the people , all in an vnknowen tongue , their praying to Saints and Angels , their praying for the dead , their blasphemous imagination , that they by breathing a set number of wordes vpon a wafer cake , make it very Christ , and other their superstitious and magicall incatations and coniurations of water , oyle , salt , palmes and other creatures , these beeing so directly contrary to the word of God as they bee : whatsoeuer here Albine hath sayed of them , wee may most iustlie and truely aduoutch them to bee right Priestes of Antichrist , and consequentlie no right Priestes of Christ . But seeing hee will needes so indefinitely and generallie pronounce his sentence , That their Bishops and Priestes bee right Bishops and Priests , to leaue these generall obiections and reasons against them , and to come to some particuler examples : first I would faine knowe of him , whereas there haue beene a twenty three scismes at least in the Papall see , sometime two , sometime three , sometime foure , all at once contending that they were right Popes , which of these was alwaies hee , that for the time was to be accounted the right Bishop ? And if neuer but one of them , yea sometimes none of them were right , and therefore they were driuen to depose and suppresse them , and to set vp a newe , they all during their times hauing had manie followers , and many were made Bishops and Priests by them , and so success●uelie from these , infinite others haue had their consecration and orders , how can wee count these right Bishops and Priestes , that were made by such , as had no right to make any ? or how shall we seuer them , that if they fetch their pedegrees , haue had their originall from such , from those that are descended from them that were made by the right Popes ? This nutte will trouble the whole Church of Rome to cracke . But to deale plainely and particularly , what can he or any of them , vnlesse they be disposed to be conuinced of wrangling by a cloud of witnesses , say for Ioan the eighth , that in the ende proued her selfe , openly in a solemne procession , to bee a harlot by her fruitfulnes ; for Christopher , Sergius , Laudo , Iohn the 11.12 . & 13. all Popes in a rowe , and yet especiallie aduanced vnto , and kept in that dignity , by their concubines and harlots ; for Siluester the second , and a number of his successours , who were promoted by Nicromancy and poisoning their predecessours ; or for Hildebrand after called Gregorie 7. who the same euening that his predecessour was dead , thrust into the place , not one Cardinall subscribing to his election , rather euen by force then by any meanes else ? Boniface the eightth got the place by cosening Caelestine his predecessour , by the sound of a voice through a tronke through the wall of his chamber : Boniface the ninth was chosen Pope by the Cardinalles at Rome , and yet , as I saied before , when they chose him hee was but twentie yeares olde , he could neither write , nor sing , nor vnderstand his latin tongue : Balthazar de Cossa Cardinall , through feare at Bononia draue the Cardinals to refer the nomination of the Pope , whom there they were about to chuse , to himselfe , who by and by chose and set vp himselfe . Sixtus the fourth , builded a famous stewes at Rome of both kindes ( as Agryppa writeth of him ) and witnesse Wesselus Groningensis , hee graunted an indulgence to the family of S. Lucia , that for the three hoate monethes in the yeare , they might vse the sinne not to be named . The like Indulgence graunted Pope Alexander the sixth , to a Spaniard Petrus Mendoza , Cardinall of Valentia , so to abuse his base sonne Marques Sanatensis . Monstrous are the incests , adulteries & Sodomitries , that stories report of Paul the 3. And Iulius the 3. his Sodomitrie , especially with one Innocentius , whiles he was Cardinall at Bononia , whom therefore hee made , being still but a very boy , Cardinal , when he was Pope , is in the stories reported very ill of . And the rather , that which in this respect is writen of him should seeme to be true , because in his time , there was one Hieron . Mutius set vp , publickely in bookes to defende certaine filthie and lothsome amarous verses , writen by one Camillus Oliuus , companion to the Cardinal of Mantua , to one Hanibal Coliuus : & that in his time Iohannes Casa Archbishop of Beneuentum , Deane of the chamber Apostolicke , and the Popes Legate in the dominions of Venis , wrote in the commendation of that filthy fact of Petrus Aloysius Paulus 3. his sonne , with Cosmus Cherius Bishop of Fane , and that with the applause and liking of that time . Now what ? Will Albine say , for all these things , that these were right Popes , Bishops and Cardinals ? right and seemely they maie be , to serue the whoar of Babilon , otherwise , such can neuer be right Bishops and Priests to serue the Lord Iesus .

But if neither that which he hath saied , concerning their comming to their places , by the ordinary way , nor this vaunt of his , that their Bishops and Priests be right Bishops and Priests , can doe him any good : yet it may be , he hopeth some credit will growe vnto them , in that he hath saied , they haue their places vy right succession . Indeede succession and the deriuation of it without interruption , downe from the Apostles , especially in their line of Popes , is a thing that such as he brag much of , saying , that that they haue , & we haue not , & that therfore their Church & the ministers thereof , must needs be good and lawfull , and ours the plaine contrarie . Howbeit , if we examine this point throughly , we shall find , that they haue as weake helpe hence , as from the other , or from any thing else . For whither they vnderstand by right succession , succession without interruption in place , person or office , seuerally or iointly togither , neither can their Bishops and Priests , as they are now , truelie saie they haue it , nor yet if they could , they being gone as they be , from the soule and life of right Apostolicke succession , namely the Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth , are they euer the better . And of the contrarie , though it were neuer so true , that we could not deduce vnto our present Bishops and Pastours downe from the Apostles or their times , without interruption , the line of succession , in place , person and office ; yet we being able to shew , as wee are , that we holde one and selfesame doctrine with them , that would iustify our Church , and ministers sufficientlie , notwithstanding the want of the former . This is quickly and easily sayed ( you will saie ) but these thinges cannot so readily bee proued . I graunt , to proue them will cost the more paines , otherwise the proofe is readie and pregnant enough , and that I doubt not , but ( if , with any indifferency , that which I shall write to that ende bee marked ) shall ere it bee long appeare . I say therefore , first , that the Roman Bishops and Priestes , as they are now and haue beene a long time , whatsoeuer they brag , no not their verie Popes ( vnto whose right succession Stapleton and others trust most ) haue any right succession , either to any Apostle or Apostolick man , in place , person or office . For first , they can neuer soundly proue ( the proofes out of the scripture are so strong to the contrary , & their proofes out of the stories so disagreeing and variable in all circumstances ) that Peter the Apostle , whose successours their Popes claime to be , and from whom al other Bishops and Priests amongst them , haue their vocations and authority deriued , was either euer at Rome , or being there , that , hauing laied aside his Apostleship , which was the greater and higher office , he sate there as Bishop . Secondly , vnto this day they cannot agree , of the order of succeeding one another betwixt Linus , Cletus , Clement & Anaclet . Vrspergensis in the life of Claudius , hath notably & at large set out , both the difference of opinions in this matter , and also the vncertainty of the trueth . Thirdly , none of any learning and reading , can be so ignorant in the stories of the Bishops of Rome , but he knowes , that they haue not succeeded one another , from the Apostles to this day without interruption alwaies , neither in place , person nor office . For besids that sundry times , many Popes for some short time haue sate from Rome , it is notoriously knowen , that Clement the 5. about the yeare 1305. translated the Popes see from Rome into France to Auinion , where it continued aboue 70. years . And as for immediate & orderly succession of persons amongst them , how is it possible truely & certainly to define & set downe that , seing that see hath not onely stoode vacant , daies , weekes , monethes , and years , somtimes 2. sometimes more , but also there hath bene at once so often , not only 2. but often 3. & sometime more , euery one striuing with his fauorers to be accounted to be the right Pope . And lastly , by that which I haue said before of the nature of their offices of Popes Cardinalles , Bishoppes & Priestes , their practise prouing daily my words therein to be most true , how dare any man , that hath any feare of God , once say or think , that they in their offices haue any affinity with the Apostles , or any Apostolicke man ? Light & darknes are not more differing the one from the other , then the offices of Apostles , Euangelists , Prophets , Pastours & Doctours in the ancient primitiue & Apostolick Church , differeth from these offices of theirs . Secondly , whereas I sayed , though yet they could , which now you see they cannot , truely say , that they succeed the Apostles & Apostolicke men in place , person and office , yet they were neuer the nearer : my reasons thereof are these . First , I finde , that wicked people & wicked Priests in the scriptures , often haue had this kinde of succession , to pleade for themselues , against the true Prophets and against Christ himselfe , as you may see Ierem. 7. vers. 4. & cap. 8. vers. 8. Iohn . 8. v. 44. Vriah the Priest in King Ahaz time , had this succession from Aaron , and yet he to please that Idolatrous king , set vp , contrary to the commandement of the Lord , an altar according to the patterne that the King had sent him , of one that hee had seene at Damascus , 2. King . 16.10.11 . The high Priests , that withstoode alwaies Christ & his doctrine , and in the ende crucified him , had this kinde of sucession , & yet none of these or their doings were any thing the more iustifiable for this . Againe though Stapleton lib. 13. doctrinalium principiorum confesses , that the Greekes haue beene scismatiques and heretiques this 500. yeares , yet he & all the sort of them of any reading know , that not they only , but also the Patriarches of Antioch and Alexandria , and the Bishops of sundry other famous Churches in the world , all which likewise , they holde , bee scismatiques and heretiques , can & doe make as great shew of this kinde of succession for the countenancing of their ministery and Churches , as they themselues , for they knowe , that the Patriarch of Constantinople doeth deduce his locall and personall succession from Andrew the Apostle ; & that the Patriarch of Antioch now sitting at Damascus , doeth likewise his from Peter , which he may doe more certainly , then the Popes when they sate at Auinion could , for it is euident Gal. 2. ver. 11. euen by the scripture it selfe , that Peter was at Antioch , & so is it not that he was at Rome . In like maner , they knowe that the Patriarch of Alexandria , now holding his seate at Alcairum , deriues his , from the Euangelist Saint Marke . And ignorant they are not , that the Arrians , preuailing as they did , and in the ende hauing got the most seats of Bishops to be furnished with men of their damnable opinion , that they for that time were able to holde this plea aswell as themselues , and yet I am sure they will graunt , that none of these were therfore , or are therfore to be allowed & iustified . They will say , I am sure ( for so I finde them plainly to reply in their writings , yea euen Iohn de Albine himselfe afterward Cap. 7. ) that though these all can and doe plead succession in place , person and office , that yet it cannot iustifie them , because not onelie they haue helde , some of them , detestable heresies , but presently also doe still . Indeede I must needs confesse , that I read , that Macedonius , Nestorius , and Paulus Sergius abrupted the line of right succession , by their heresies at Constantinople ; that Paulus Samosatenus did the like at Antioch ; and that Dioscorus and Petrus Moggus did likewise at Alexanderia . And I cannot deny , but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged , to holde errours and heresies , but this then withall I infer , the more true that it is , and hath beene thus with them , the more euident it is , of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe , either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours , or their religion , that can plead that . And this further I adde , if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew , then there is as great cause , why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists , should be reiected , as a thing not worth the naming . For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes ( which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about ) it is so manifest , that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them ; but also euen in their line of Popes ( who , as some of them hold , cannot erre ) there haue bene sundry heretiques also . For Tertullian contra Praxeam , writeth of a Bishop of Rome , that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus , & , as he saieth , therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia , and Phrigia thereabout . And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes , and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius , and Hieron de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie , that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme . And Honorius died an heretique , as it is to be seene in the first general councel , Act. 12. & 13. &c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth , that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques . Anastasius the second , fell into a condemned heresie , as we read Dist. 19. Cap. Anastasius : and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique . And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Constance & the schole of Paris , for denying in effect the immortality of the soule . Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong , that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery , that holde , that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie ; as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. & 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill . And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies , as they charge these withall , if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine , I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers , or to our Churches and cause . Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places ( to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them , concerning this their brag of right succession ) whereas thirdly I saied , that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles without interruption , any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee , yet as long as ours teach , and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught , wee are well enough , whatsoeuer they say to the contrary : that resteth onely now in this case to be proued . But before I come to the proofe of this , least in this my assertion I be mistaken , I would first , that it were marked , that I speake but by way of supposition , that is , if we were not able to set downe a continued line , downe from them to vs without any interruption , for in the 4. Chapter following , I hope , I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs , as whereby it may sufficiently appeare , that there was neuer age nor time since , but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers . Secondly , I would haue it also vnderstoode , that my meaning is , though it were so , that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession : in that processe of time , distance of place , and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names , persons and places ; that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men , I constantly holde and beleeue , that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth , whereof his Church consistes , euen from the first beginning thereof , and shall bee to the ende . Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated , that the Churches of Christ , if they can proue , that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them , according vnto his good pleasure , whither ordinarily or extraordinarily , and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught ( witnes the canonicall scriptures ) that then , they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God , and that in such a case , especially in and after great persecutions , ruines & long oppressions of their members & children , they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged , neither in respect of their ministers and teachers , nor in respect of their doctrine , though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons , either by whom their ministers , downe from the Apostles , haue had their vocation deriued vnto them , or else by whom euer since , that trueth hath beene continued . For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD , whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition , by the fury of persecutours , there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers , in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein , or within the knowledge and remembrance thereof , to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson : yet when in the iust iudgement of God , the Churches shall bee oppressed , as now a long a time they haue beene , vnder the tyranny of Antichrist , then and after such a time , such a thing growes to many not onely harde , but also impossible . And in such tymes wee finde , that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church , rayseth vp men , though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes , as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem , by meanes of the persecution there , when Stephen was stoned , we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed , and namely with them Philip the Deacon , that hee preached , the Apostles not aware thereof , for any thing that appears : so vnder Constantine , Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria , and vnder Valens , Aphraates , Flauianus , and Iulianus at Antioch , beeing then but Monkes , who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes , as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised , thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued , but also that which I haue saied , in some sort is already confirmed . But my reason indeede is , that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine , in the good prouidence of God towards his Church , opened and continued in the same , though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes , but sometimes somewhat extraordinarily , as he seeth need thereof , is and may be such effectuall seede to beget children vnto God , and so holesome foode to feede them , yea euen vntil they grow to a full age & perfection in Christ Iesus , that though their teachers cannot shew for the defence of their calling , who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them , yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them , and their people to be Apostolique Churches , whereas though they could doe the other without this , it were nothing . And because my aduersary seemeth in this point , & otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus , Tertullian and Augustine , I will stande to their iudgement in this , whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine , be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession , and not this without that . Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter , teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church , which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks , haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris , that is , the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father ; for , as for all other , whatsoeuer they pretend ( for he excepteth nothing ) he there immediatly sheweth , that absistunt a principali successione , that is , they are gone from the principall succession , and therefore must be suspected . And Tertullian in the very same place , de praescriptionibus haereticorum , quoted by Albine after , in his 9. Chapter , immediatly after the words there cited by him , wherein he calleth for personall succession , hath added these , Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici &c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing , for after blasphemy , what is not lawfull for them ( saieth hee ) but though they doe faine some such thing , yet it shall nothing preuaile them . For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine , by the diuersity & contrariety thereof , wil pronounce , that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique man to be the authour therof . For ( saith he ) as the Apostles taught not amongst themselues contrary things , so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught . After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches , which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof , in that they were long after planted , as dayly there bee , tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes , non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae , yet they agreeing with them in one faith , are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches , then they that were planted by the Apostles . What can be plainer then this , to shewe , that though our Churches could not satisfie his request , in pleading the former succession , that yet if they can shewe this , that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine , that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke , then they that can produce the former without this . And though Augustine in his 165. epistle , and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle , which they call their foundation , remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession : yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him , he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures , before them all . Wherefore , what I haue saied , concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession , either to iustifie theirs , or to disgrace our Church or ministrie , is sufficientlie proued .

But all this labour ( will Albine say ) I might haue spared , for he spake not simplie of succession , but expressely of right succession of Bishops & pastours ; and to shew what he ment thereby , he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies , without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time . Moreouer , I confesse that sundry times after ( so forcible was the trueth in this point with him ) that in wordes he confesseth , that personall and locall succession , without continuance in this trueth , is not the thing that he vrgeth , and yet for all this , this that I haue saied of this point , is not needlesse . For besides that fewe of his opinion , will bee brought to confesse thus much , this both in others , and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following , maie be obserued , that when this confession is made by anie of them , it is wroong from them much against their wils , for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall succession to be the marke , whereby true Churches , and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned . Againe , if in this he spake as hee thinkes , why doeth he make so much adoe , about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours , and neuer ioines this issue with vs , to trie out soundly and throughly , whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth . For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs , and this determined , the question betwixt vs were quite ended : let them once therefore but proue indeed , that they are in possession of this sound trueth , and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein , if we ioyne not streight with them , and repent vs hartely of our departure from them , accursed be we . Yea , if we cannot proue by comparing their doctrine , with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught , to be both diuerse from that , and contrary vnto it ( vnderstanding by their doctrine , as wee doe , that , which is proper to them , and wherein we are against them ) let vs for euer leese our credit and cause . Now for the decyding and determining of this great & maine controuersie , wee appeale to the canonical scriptures , which we knowe are most fit and sufficient iudges herein : whereunto , vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae ( that is , of shunners of the light ) which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time , de resurrect. carnis , they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone . Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time , the heretiques ( as it appeares in their workes ) for the triall of their opinions , fled from this touchstone , and when they were vrged herewith , they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw . For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them : cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur , in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum , quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate , & quia variè sunt dictae , & quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem : that is , when they are reproued by the scriptures , then they are turned streight into an accusation of them , as though they were not right , nor were of authority , both because they are so set downe , as that variably or diuersly they may be taken , and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those , that are ignoraunt of tradition . This notwithstanding , it appeareth both there and elsewhere , that he calleth them to this triall . And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis , Cap. 3. saying , Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt , vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant & stare non possunt , that is , let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen , that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions , and they cannot stand . And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time , then to call them , for the triall of the question , both whither he or they were of the true Church , & also whither of them had the trueth , to this way of triall by the scriptures . And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae , Nolo humanis documentis , sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare , I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men , but by the diuine oracles , saieth he Cap , 3. & again , there also he further addeth , pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe : sunt libri dominici , quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus , ibi quaeramus ecclesiam , ibi discutiamus causam nostram , that is , there are certaine bookes of the Lord , vnto the authority whereof we both consent , there let vs seeke the Church , there let vs discusse our cause . To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke , and elswhere very often . Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt them & vs , we must needs tel them , that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare , which of vs haue the better cause , but as men who know in their owne conscience , that their cause is bad , they labour to maintaine the credit thereof , as long as they can , by cunning shifts & delaies . But yet let them assure themselues , as long as they shun this trial , how cunningly & colourably soeuer , though simple fooles already besotted with superstition , & bewitched with popish enchantments , vpon their bare worde & stought bragges , that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach , may sometimes beleeue them : that yet withal those that haue any wisdom at al , by this means they leese quite both the credit of themselues & their cause . For faith being , as it is , not a wauering & vncertaine conceyt & opinion of the thing beleeued , but a most certain sure & infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof , how can any be assured , that the doctrine that he beleeues , is such as he may soundly & firmely rest vpon , for vndoubted trueth , without euident ground thereof , out of the writen word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures ? For thence onely Peter dare warrant the sincere milke , which cannot deceiue the children of god , to be fetched , 1. Pet. 2 , 2. & therefore , that he would haue them to desire , as new borne babes doe milk , that they may grow vp therby . And as for the writings & traditions of men beside , hath not & doth not experience daily teach , that they may not nor cannot chalenge the preeminence & prerogatiue , alwaies to be free from errour ? And euery one that is a Christian hath learned , that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof , therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore can be so simple ( vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him , because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him ) that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith , that he heares not first from point to point , proued vnto him so to bee , out of this vndoubted certaine word of God , the canonical scriptures , what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof ? And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue , & yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to countenance his cause & religion , but as one loth to be brought to this trial , he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al men from appealing vnto it , & yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth , that both his Church , his doctrine and al , are sound & catholick . Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine , any indifferent man may see , he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause , them any way ( whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise ) impaired the credit of ours . But how vainly hee hath swet , euen to the tyring of himselfe , & his reader about this point , in many chapters : That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried & determined : when I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully .

In the meane time ( Iohn de Albine , to turne my speech to you ) I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand , how you come to your prelacies and offices , and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such , as that your calling or comming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby , than the calling & comming to their offices amongst the Arrians & Greekes ( whom you count heretiques and scismatiques ) can doe , because they can & could say as much , and that as truly for theirs , as you haue here said for yours : let vs now proceed , to the examination of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you , & vrged as you thought strongly to your purpose . By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world &c. by christ spoken properly to his Apostles , you would seem to proue , that therfore right succession of Bishops & pastors in the Apostolique truth , in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare & shining like a light set on a table . & by that Eph. 4. & Esa. 62. ( with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely ) you would infer , that not only alwaies , vntil Christs body come to ful perfection , there should be doctors & pastors in the Church to teach the truth ( which is the most that by those places can be proued ) but also that they and their congregations haue euer ben known & visible , therby ( doubtles ) meaning so visible ( as the rest of your side doe , when to this end they alleage these or the like places ) as that from time to time in al ages , men may be able to name them and their places . Wherunto I answere , that you stretch these places and the words therin further than their natiue sence wil bear . For the first of these , is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely , who in respect of their ministery & other graces of the spirit that should be powred & bestowed vpon them , to beutifie & strengthen their extraordinary ministery withall , are there by Christ comp●●●●● the light of the world , to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell , lightning all in the house , and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil , which could not bee bid : all which afterward they in the ●●ecution of their Apostleship , and holy conuersation , proued to be ●●●tles truely and iustly giuen them . This was no prophesie ( as yo● would make it ) that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ , a visible and alwaies demonstrable succession of such ●●●●sters in the Church without interruption , as these metaphor●●●●scribe . And yet I deny not , but that alwaies , in one place or ot● 〈◊〉 the Church hath had from the beginning thereof , and shall haue 〈◊〉 the ende of the world , such and so many ministers , whereby the L● 〈◊〉 hath alwaies and will continue the life thereof : but that this pl●●● of Matthew proueth so much ( which is yet far lesse then you 〈◊〉 enforce vpon it ) I deny . Notwithstanding I graunt , that all 〈◊〉 faithfull pastours and teachers , according to the nature of their ●●ling , and measure of their gifts , so far forth as they therein haue ●●●thing common with the Apostles , and are found like vnto them , 〈◊〉 also in some sort haue these things applied vnto them , & vnderst●●● of them : but then withall it must be noted , and alwaies remembr●● that as there was and is diuersity of gifts and offices in sundry ●●spects , betwixt the Apostles and common pastours and teachers , 〈◊〉 it must follow , that there is proportionable difference , betwixt the apparent light and visiblenes of the one and the other . The Apostles were by their office appointed to preach to all nations , Math. 28. 〈◊〉 therefore worthely called in that respect , the light of the world : and by their extraordinary giftes they were set vp as burning lampes , and mighty cities , to be seene & discerned a farre off : whereas Bishops , Pastours , & Doctours haue charges limited vnto them but of final compasse ; and giftes but such , as if they giue true light , and be seene of those that be about them , and neare vnto them , it is well Howsoeuer , certaine it is ( as I saied before ) that Christ doeth not there prophecy or foreshew , how visible & lightsome his Pastours & teachers should be from time to time to the worlds end : but he teacheth his Disciples and Apostles , what by his grace they should be , and so others succeeding them in the office of teaching , what they ought according to their place , to striue to bee . And I would haue this marked also , that euen they , to whom Christ spake properly , were but tolde , that there light should lighten those of the house , and that a citty built on a hill , though it be not hid to those that are ●eare vnto it , yet to those that dwell in another cuntrey farre of , it may bee hid ; and that therefore though this place , were as properly to be vnderstood of al true Pastors , as of the Apostles : that yet ●t inferreth not , that their persons and light should bee seene and ●iscerned but of them , that be nigh them , or ioined with them in the ●ame house , or communion of religion . And as for that in the 4 to the Eph. though it proue , that there shall be teachers in the Church to gather togither the Saintes , and to edifie the body of Christ , vntill it be brought to perfection : yet it proueth not therefore your visibility of them ; neither doeth that in the 62 of Esay . For it onely sheweth , that God would blesse his Church with watchfull and discreet pastours , which accordingly after he performed . But there is nothing saied , to proue that they and their succession in the truth , should be so visible & apparent , as you dreame of . But to awake you out of this dreame , you must heare and vnderstand , that though it be as certaine , that neither the trueth , nor teachers thereof , hath at any time , or shal hereafter vtterly faile , or cease to be in the Church , as it is , that the Church if selfe continueth euer , & neuer quite ceaseth : yet thereupon it followeth not , that therefore both the trueth and teachers thereof haue so continued a personall succession one vnto another , or one immediatly after another , and are withal so visible and apparent , that their names and places may straight not onely then , but alwaies after of euery one ( as you vpon these places would infer ) be pointed and painted out . And for the confirmation & proofe hereof , let vs briefely take a view of the state of the Church from time to time , as it is set downe vnto vs in the holy Scriptures . And in this point , let vs beginne with the Church , when in respect of all the former times it was best setled , & began to haue the most visible apparence , namely when vnder the conduict , & by the seruice of Iosua God had placed it in Canaan . After this , though God therein had established a Priesthood , & tied it Leuit. 10. by his ordinance & promise to the tribe of Leui , & though the Church then had most notable promises of Gods presence , & fauour towards it , Psal. 68.2 . Chro. 33.2 . Chr. 7. Esa. 60.62.63 . yet for al this , for the sinnes & iniquities of the people , it was driuen often into those streights , that succession of priests & pastors was interrupted , & of the teachers & of the professors of the trueth there could hardly be made demonstration . For in the time of the iudges , that followed Iosua ( as it appeareth in the booke of them ) Cap. 10.13 . &c. it had many such ecclipses , that we read ther , of their general Idolatry , & other sinnes , & therefore of their slauery vnder heathen princes , in Gods iustice laied vpon them diuers times , for many yeares togither : & in the meane time we finde little mention , either of priest or people , that feared God aright . And in Elies time ( 1. Sa. 2. ) the priesthood & al grew so corrupt , that therefore by Samuel Elie is threatned , that the priesthood ( notwithstanding Gods promise Leu. 10. ) should be translated from his house : & after we read ( Cap. 4. ) that the very Arke of God was lost , & taken of the Philistines . And it canot be denied , but the God had his church in Israel , in king Achabs time . For Obadiah had then hid 100 prophets in two caues , 1. King . 18. & God himselfe told Eliah , that he had 7000 there , that had not bowed their knees vnto Baal , Cap. 19. & yet Eliah ( though there & then a prophet ) was so far from being able to name them , & to point out , who they were , & what they were , the he thought himselfe in that kingdome to be left alone . And in the kingdome of Iudah , where ( in comparison of the kingdome of the ten tribes ) the Church vsually had a more visible estate , yet in the latter end of Salomons raigne , Rehobohās , & Ahiiahs , the estate thereof was so growen out of order , that the prophet Azariah saied vnto king Asa , their next successour there ( hauing relation to the state of the Church in the kingdom , as sundry good interpreters take his words ) now for a long season Israel hath bene without the true God , & without priest to teach , & without law . 2. Chr. 15. Be like then their succession , & their names were not so visible , as you seeme to imagin , alwaies they must be in the Church . And though by Asa & his son Iehosaphat , the church was wel reformed again , yet in king Ahaz time ( as appeareth 2. Chr. 28.2 . King . 16. ) grosse Idolatry ouerspred the kingdome so , that the temple was polluted & prophaned , & Vriah the priest ioyned with the king in the erection of a new altar , & in committing abhomination before the Lord , though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests from Aaron . Againe , though Ezechiah , succeeding Ahaz , for his time did notably rid the Church of the abhominations , wherwith his father had defiled it , yet when he was dead , his son Manasses , & his son Amon , brought it to as il an estate , as euer it was : in so much , that from the beginning of Manasses raign , vnto the 18 of Iosiahs , the booke of the law of the Lord was lost , which was wel nigh 80 years : for them it is noted that Hilki●h the priest found it , 2. King . 22. In Manasses his time it is euident , Idolatry openly preuailed , & the whole Synagogue , saue a few prophets & their folowers erred . If we proceed , during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon , what visible & apparent shew of any succession of Bishops & pastors can we finde , the ioined togither in the exercise of Gods religion ? Was not their temple then destroied , & consequently did not the publick exercise of their religion ( which for the most part was tied therunto ) cease ? as it was prophesied by Hosea , Ca. 3. & therfore lamented by Ieremy , Ca. 3. Lam . When Christ our sauiour came into the world , surely then God had his Church . For it is a most certaine article of our faith , that since it began , it hath neuer ceased , nor neuer shal , & yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there then in possession of soūo religion ? Had not they ( as euidently appeareth by the stories writen by the Euangelists ) that were in the visible personal succession , corrupted the doctrine of the Messias , both concerning his person , and office so , that they were the deadliest enemies , that he had ?

But you wil say perhaps , that though these thinges were thus in the Church , in the time of the olde Testament , yet it may not be so in the Church now , in the time of the new . And why so ? Howsoeuer otherwise there be some difference betwixt the Church then and now , in respect of the more cleare reuelation now , then then of the doctrine of the Messias ( whereof that Heb. 8.6 . is by some vnderstood ) yet in this respect you shal neuer be able , by the word writen , or any true story , to proue any necessary difference ; vnles it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculier people , & his seruice in great part to their temple , and that he had ordained amongst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so , that the Church then had more right to plead visible succession , then now . In the meane time , thus much is gained by these stories of the Church , in the time of the olde testament , that this outward clearenes & visible succession , you talke of , is not an inseparable note of the true Church , for therby we haue seene it seperated oftentimes from it . And vnles men were peeuishly disposed to maintaine a manifest vntruth , conuicted so to be both by Scripture and experience , you would see & graunt , that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ . For is it not plainely prophesied 2. Thess. 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichrist , and that very great and effectual ? And least you should babishly , & foolishly ( as many of you doe ) vnderstand this of an Antichrist , that towards the end of the world should come and raigne , & seduce men , 3 yeares & an halfe : marke , that here Paul telleth vs in his time , that this mistery of iniquity did already worke , which it did , in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seeke iustification partly by faith , & partly by the workes of the law , as it appeareth by the Epistle to the Galathians : & weigh that he attributeth vnto him such things , as could not be brought to passe in that space : & lastly consider , that he teacheth , that though he should be detected and fal into a consumption by the Spirit of Gods mouth , yet he should not be fully abolished before Christs second comming . All which make it most euident , that Paul here prophecieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity , which should trouble the Church , then yours of 3 years & an halfe continuance . But least yet , this notwitstanding , you should imagine , that the fulfilling of this prophecy , & your fansie of perpetual clearnes & vniuersality of the church , may stand alwaies togither , S. Iohn in his Reuelation describing ( as you al must confesse ) the state of the Church , seeth her in a vision by the great 7 headed Dragon , driuen into the wildernes , and there glad to be fed for a season , Chap. 12. And he seeth the Babilonish harlot ( the true patterne of your Romish prelacy ; by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist , & his kingdome ) committing fornication , not with a fewe , but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth ; not ruling or sitting ouer a few , but ( as the Angel there expoundeth the waters , whereon she was seene to sit ) people , multitudes , nations , & tongues . Apoc. 17 Al which laied togither doe plainly shew , that after Christ , there should grow such a defection from the fayth , in the world by the means of Antichrist , that during the florishing of his kingdome , the true Church and her pastours should be driuen into the wildernes , and so for that time should haue in comparison of Antichrists followers , small visibility , and shew in the eies of the world . Which we say , and constantly are able to defend , hath beene verified in the late florishing of your Romish Prelats . Besides , view the stories of the church , & the Cronicles of times , and you shal be driuen to confesse , that though the Church hath had alwaies her two witnesses ( Re. 11 ) to testifie to the trueth , & that they neuer could be extinguished quite by Tyrants , yet she hath often beene driuen from carying any great shewe of visibility in the world . For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew , doe witnes , that Diocletian , Iouius , and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined , when they caused them to bee erected , that they then had quite layed the honour of Christ for euer in the dust , and as it should seeme by the circumscriptions , that they thereupon caused to bee engraued , they set them vp euen of purpose to brag , that they had like great conquerers quite extinguished ( as they terme it ) the superstition of Christ . Which they would neuer haue done , if either they or their fauorites had then seene a visible succession of Bishops and pastours amongst them , and had knowen their names , and where to haue found them . If wee go on to the time that the Arrians most florished , wee shall read , that the Emperour Constantius sayed to Liberius , Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum , qui solus facis cum homine scelerato , meaning Athanasius , Ecclesiast. Hist. Theodoreti . lib. 2. cap : 16. whereby it appeareth , that then the Catholiques that withstood the Arrians , in the sight of this Emperour , had but a poore visibility to bragge of . Yea Piggius , your owne man , confesseth Hierar . lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part , but almost the whole world : in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east , but also of the West , by one meanes or other were blinded , and no small time continued this heresie : and this is certaine , that they bragged then as much of visible succession , of the name of the Church , and vniuersality , as euer since you haue done : calling the true Christians Homousians ( as you doe now Lutherans , & Zwinglians ) as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them . You may see therefore , that these weapons or staies , are common to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques . These places of Scripture , and experiments therefore caused August . vpon the 10. Psalm . & 78. Epist . to compare the Church vnto the Moone , which besides the monethly waynings , suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies . And surely vnles we be too too wilfull , al these things togither may make vs out of doubt , that the Church of God both before Christ & since , hath often failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world , that it is so easie a matter , to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours & teachers , who they were , and where they taught , as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is . And therefore for answere to this Chapter , to any reasonable man , this is sufficient .

The II. Chapter .

SAint a a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue rightly succeeded one another both in person , office & trueth of doctrine , which is the thing you should haue proued , to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a succession of Pastours to continue & settle men in the truth , which is another point . For though this were graunted you , yet you haue not therby wun the other . Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the Ephesians , where as he doeth declare vnto vs , the fruit that doeth proceed of this succession of Pastours , and of the perseuerance of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine , called the vnity of faith . For he sayeth , that God established this order to that ende , that wee should not bee like light children , a a The more is your sinne , that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away from the truth , by the enticements of Antichrist . caried away with euery blast of false doctrine , through the subtilitie of men , & their crafty words , full of deceit . In these wordes you doe see , how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile & the intention of the holy Ghost : b b If you had beene constant in this faith , wee and you had beene all of one minde , and vnles we can ●ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say , we will forsake it , and ioine with you , but if we can , then you are to forsake yours & to ioine with vs , if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost . I meane , that we should be constant in our faith , the which is grounded vpon the word of God , & interpreted & declared vnto vs by the Doctours & Pastors , that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith & Catholick religion , from the first time that it was preached , with out turning with euerie winde , but rather that we ought to stand firme & stable . Here is to be noted , that when the Apostle doeth tel , how he hath left vs pastors & doctors , to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers , he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose , the which hath in English the signification , of the c c I would not you had forgot this note , for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours , which by this their skil in cogging and cosening , doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church . how variable so euer that be . playing or cogging at dise . And euen as he that hath no great skill , if he plaie with such a one , he wil soone lose his money , because the other can cast what he will : Euen so , if a simple man , being vnlearned , doe chance to talke with such a one as can cog , or ( to speake plainelie ) falsly interprete the Scriptures , he may soone be deceaued : as we see it daily happen to many , that play away & put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritance , I meane , the faith , which hath bene left to them by their fathers , from age to age , since Christs time . Thus haue the Arrians , the Nestorians , & diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man , as I will shewe more at large hereafter .

The II. Chapter .

IN this second chapter , you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged , that God established a ministery in his Church , that we should not be like children caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine , thorow the subtlety of men , & their crafty words full of deceit : whereupon you inferre , that thereby God hath taught vs , to be constant in our faith , grounded vpon the word of God , interpreted & declared vnto vs by the doctors & pastors , that successiuely haue continued from the beginning in the same . Who of vs euer either wrote , spoke , or thought otherwise ? But herein is your subtlety , that you take this stil for graunted , which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs , and for determination wherof on your side , you haue as yet saied nothing , that the faith and religion , which your Synagogue is in possession of is that faith , which you speake of , which we constantly deny , affirming the faith & religion , which we professe , to be that indeede , wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled , and which hath alwaies continued in the Church , and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen , by the true pastors thereof in one place or other , from time to time . And therfore herein you haue saied nothing , but the ( we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion ) maketh as much for vs , as for you . We graunt you also , that false teachers , and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures , worthily there , may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening , but then still we adde , that your teachers a long time haue bene the men , that haue vsed , and yet doe vse that cogging tricke . Which ( if it would please you once by the sound rules of interpreting the scriptures , to let your interpretations and ours be examined ) we doubt not , but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly .

The III. Chapter .

THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew , how dangerous a thing it is , to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures , & likewise how certaine a thing it is , a a Such interpretation of the doctour , we will most willingly follow , and if you should , you would quickelie forsake your popery and ioyne with vs . to follow the interpretation of the ancient Doctours , standing to that , that euer the Catholicke Church hath taught , & not to turne at euery blast . Vpon this matter one * * Lib. con . haer. Vincentius Lyrinensis , who florished aboue a thousand yeares agone , he saith thus : If anie man perchance demaund , saying : Since that the rules of the Scripture are certaine & b b Yea and more then sufficient saieth he , Marke he graunts the rules of the scripture to be sufficient : how is then that true , which your Andradius saieth , the greatest part is left to tradition not writen ? sufficient of themselues : And what neede haue we then of the authority of the Church ? He answereth : For that ( saieth he ) that the secrets & misteries of the holy Scriptures are such , that euery man doeth not vnderstand them , & interprete them after one sort , but that of one place this man & that man shal seeme to maintaine their opinions , being cleane contrary one to another , so that , looke how many men , so many interpretations : For , one way it is interpreted by Nestorius , another way by Arrius , another way by Sabellius , & so forth , according to diuers heresies that haue risen from time to time . And therefore it is necessary for the knowledge of the trueth , among so many errours , to draw the c c And for these reasons we allow of Vincentius rule , vnderstanding , as he doth , that by the right line and rule of interpreting is ment that sence which hath the consent of the Prophets , Apostles and Catholique Church , for no other sence we giue of the Scriptures . right line of the Propheticall & Apostolical interpretation , according to the rule & true sense of the Catholicke Church . This is the learned opinion of this ancient father Vincentius Lyrinensis .

The III. Chapter .

IN the 3 Chapter , you say as little to the purpose , as in the second . For vnderstanding by the Church , the true catholique Church indeede , and not your late Synagogue of Rome ( falsely by you so named , because neither it , nor the faith thereof is vniuersall , neither in respect of time nor person ) whatsoeuer you haue writen therein , we confesse to be most true , and sure we are , it maketh more for vs , then for you . For we neuer denied the ministry of the true Church to be needefull ( according to Vincentius rule ) to finde out the true sence of the scriptures : and certaine we are , that we are farre better able , to iustifie our interpretations thereby , then you are yours : and he liuing a 1000. years agoe ( as you write ) we boldely affirme , that you shall neuer bee able to proue , that the Catholicke Church and her doctours and pastours before or in his time , taught the errours and heresies now taught by yours , for the which wee account yours Antichristian . And yet , as in the former Chapter most beggerly you begged this principle , that your doctrine is the ancient Catholicke faith : so here in this you begge this also , that your Church is the true and vndoubted Catholicke Church . But you must vnderstand , howsoeuer your owne frendes will giue you at your first asking both these , that yet we will graunt you neither of them both . And therefore writing ( as you would seeme ) purposely against vs , you should not thus miserably alwaies haue begged them at our handes , but by sound and iust proofe ( at least ) haue endeuoured to proue , that you had iust right thereunto , and then with some more honestie and credit might you haue gone on , in this supposall , that they are yours . This also you must vnderstand , that when it is in question , which is the trueth of Religion , yea euen in the fundamentall points ( as indeede it is betwixt you and vs ) it is alwaies also in question , which is the Church of Christ . For as both parts imagine , they haue the trueth , so will they perswade themselues , that they are the true Church . Your frendes also and all others must bee aduertised , that it is no newe thing for damnable heretiques , to brag much both of the truth of the titles of the Church & of the doctours thereof , least through too much simplicity , they think streight , that you haue al these things on your side , because you haue them so much and so often in your mouthes . For ( as Cyprian writeth Epist. ad Iubaianum de baptizandis haereticis ) the Nouations ( after the fashion of apes ) challenged vnto themselues the name of the Church , and all other they called heretiques . And we reade , that in the time of Arius , Macedonius , and Donatus , these heretiques accounted themselues the onely Christians , and that the true Christians indeede were counted by them Homousians , Macarians , Caesarians , and Caecilianists . So doeth Tertullian de Prescrip: aduersus haereticos , testify , that the heretiques did in his time . So did the Donatists ( saieth August : Contra Epist: Parm : lib. 2. cap. 1. and Epist. 161. ) and he writeth Contra Epist: Fundamenti cap. 4. that amongst the Manichees , there was great brags of the trueth . Bernard also in his 66. sermon vpon the Canticles , speaking against certaine filthy heretiques that condemned mariage , and superstitiously absteined from meates , yet saieth that they gloried , that they alone were the body of Christ , bragging also , that they were the successours of the Apostles and Apostolicke , & the Church of Christ . And indeede wee finde nothing more vsuall with the ancient hereticks , then to boast , that they had the Church and Catholique trueth on their sides . And very vsuall we finde it also with them , to stand much vpon fathers , in the defence of themselues and their heresies . For it appeareth in the Councell of Calcedon the 1. Action , that Eutiches bragged , that he had reade Cyprian , and Athanasius : yea that then and there he confidently saied for his defence , that he had so learned of his ancient predecessours , and that he had beene baptized in that faith , had liued , and hoped to die in it . And we reade in the 4. Action of the same councell , that Carosus an Eutichian heretique , saied stoutly , I beleeue thus , according to the exposition of the 318. fathers , and so was I baptised . Dioscorus also , in the 1. Act : of that Councell , cried and saied , I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers , Athanasius , Gregorie , and Cyrill on my side , I go not from them in anie thing , I am cast out with the fathers , I defend the fathers doctrines : I haue their testimonies , euen set downe in their bookes for me . And ( as we reade in August : contra Cresconium the Donatist , 2. booke cap. 23. and in his 4. booke cap. 17. ) he cited for himselfe Cyprian : and it seemeth that Maximinus the heretique ( against whom August . wrote ) vsed to alleadge for his defence , the councell of Ariminum , and therefore Augustine saieth vnto him . Neither will I obiect the councell of Nice against thee , neither oughtest thou to obiect that of Ariminum against me : 3. booke . 14. chap. What a vaine thing is it ( these things considered ) for you and your fellowes then , to carie away the simple vnder the bare titles of Catholique trueth , Catholique Church , Catholique faith , Catholique Bishops , succeeding one another ? When as indeede and trueth , it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these , as it was for those heretiques . But howsoeuer you make some beleeue , you haue all these , yet I say vnto you , with Saint August : De vnitate Ecclesiae , against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto , if that anie where they be deceiued , in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures . And therefore when all commeth to all , and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath , in conclusion ( will you , will you ) by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined , whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them ( as indeede you doe ) to the Church and fathers , they will sende you backe againe for the triall , whither that which they speake , bee true or no , onelie to the Scriptures : as it maie appeare vnto you , not onelie by this one place , which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie , but also by a number such like places , both to bee founde in him else where , and also in others . For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret , that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell , and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth , and so also of the Church , and fathers to bee on their side , to ende all those controuersies , he saied , Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur ; that is , out of the oracles , that are come by diuine inspiration ( thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures ) let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded : and so they did . And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde , so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same . For to Serap : hee saieth , Solum exsacris literis condiscas ( meaning , that the holie Ghost is God ) sufficiunt enim documenta , quae in illis reperias : Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures , for the documents or lessons , which thou maiest finde in them , are sufficient . And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes , in his tenth booke ( agreeing herein with these ) saieth , that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour , in the examination thereof , is to bee discerned . And yet more plainely , the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth , of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures : for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses , haue no credit . Well therefore saied Augustine , de naturâ & gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall : And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle : that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures , to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred . Where he plainly sheweth vs , by his example , how we should reade his writings , or the writings of any other father , namely , beleeuing that which they wrote no further , then we see it by scripture confirmed , or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth . And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. & 112. Epistles , to Fortunatus and Paulinus , & in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity . Wherefore with the same Augustine , I confidently say and write , whither of Christ , or of his Church , or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life ( I will not say wee , that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee , but as hee addeth ) though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing , besides that yee haue receaued ( marke hee saieth not contrarie , but besides ) in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures , let him be accursed ; in his third booke against Petilian . cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you , denyeth not , but taketh it for graunted , that the scriptures of themselues alone , are sufficient for all things , yea and more then sufficient . Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius , by the rule , line and true sence of the Catholique Church , that there he speaketh of , vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line , as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues , and the right rules of the interpreting of them , wherof more afterwards . In the meane time , howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was , Augustine an ancienter father , & more famous somewhat then he , speaking of the rule of faith , that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures , men must haue an eie vnto , and be ruled by , saith , that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture : de doctrinâ Christia : lib 3. cap. 2. & de trini : lib. 1. cap. 2. & . 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct: Christ : lib. 2. cap. 6. & distrinc : 37. c. Relatum . we may reade , noted out of Clement , that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true sence of the scriptures , which cannot be proued so to be out of the scriptures themselues . And therefore all interpretation of scripture , newe or ancient , deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age , must and ought according to this rule and line , bee iudged catholique or not .

The IIII. Chapter .

Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remember the complaint , that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ , beeing both represented by Salomon , and his legitimate spouse . I pray thee ( saith she ) O my deare frend , tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at no●● daies , for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes ? The which is as much to say , as if she meant thus : I see many shepheardes in these mountaines , which haue great abundance of sheepe , I see those of the Roman Church , I see Donatistes , I see Nouatians , or , to speake of our time , I see one flocke follow Luther , another follow a a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries : are commonly amongst you taken for one , yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater , you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts . Zuinglius , another follow Caluin , another the Anabaptists , another the Sacramentaries , & so forth diuers others , of whom when I demaund particulerly , Whose is this flocke ? they do al answer me , It is of Christ , & euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church , euery one doeth say , that he is his fellow , that is to say , as touching the guiding of his flocke . Now it is not possible , that they doe al teach the trueth , considering how they varie among themselues : therefore I doe desire thee to tell me , where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies ? That is as much to say , teach me , which is the true Catholicke Church , which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse , which is the place , where thou wast nailed at noone daies , beeing nailed both handes and feete ? Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ : If thou doest not know the place where I rest , O most beautifull amongst all women , follow thou the path that thy flocke hath made before thee , setting thy tabernacle or thy lodge , hard by the tabernacle of thy Shepheards . If wee well note , and vnderstand this answere , it will learne vs that , that shall suffice to keepe vs from running euer astray . The sense is this : O thou Christian , which art troubled in thy conscience , not knowing , because of so many heresies , which way thou shalt go , or how thou shalt discerne the true religion from other false doctrine , take my counsaile , the which is to follow step by step the flocke that went before thee . If that a thousand or two thousand sheep run ouer a plaine , those that come afterward , doe not they knowe wel the path that is made before them ? Doe not they discerne the way that the first went ? Yes surely , although there be no Shepheard to guide them . And if thou doest answere , that this doeth not suffice , for I doe see diuerse pathes , I see the path of the Caluinistes , Cant. 1. the path of the Lutherans , and the path of those of the Roman Church : but yet doe not I knowe which flocke I should choose . To this I answere thus : set thy Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the shepheardes , and of thy Pastours , I meane , that a a Then we may not leane to yours for this can it neuer doe . I would haue thee to leane to that flocke , that can leade thee from age to age , and from yeare to yeare , vnto the crosse of Iesus Christ , on the which hee was nailed at noone daies : and there it is where thou oughtest to quiet thy selfe and thy conscience . Then to beginne : If thou doest aske the Caluinistes , Where is the true faith ( the which , as they saie , doeth consist in the true preaching of the worde of the Lorde , and in the administration of the Sacramentes , according to the institution of Iesus Christ ) they will answere : It is at Geneua ; the Lutherans will answere , at Wittemberge ; and the Anabaptistes will answere at Monasterium ; the Vbiquitaries , they wil answer , at ●ubing ; and the Trinitaries , at Petricone ; and so consequentlie of the rest . And then pursue , and aske further , where it was twentie yeares agone ? They will saie , in the saied cities : but if thou come to demaund of them , where it was an hundred or two hundred yeares agone , if they are ashamed anie thing at all to lye , they wil not answere at all , for there is none of them , that can denie , but that Luther , who began to preach his new Gospell the yeare b b This is a monstrous and impudent vntruth , for constantly and generally wee say and proue by the Scripture , that our religion hath plentifull warrant , both in the olde & newe Testament . 1517 , was the first beginner of all these troubles , & the father of al those that teach this reformed Religion . Then is it farre from that place , where thy frend was nailed at middaie , or where hee was crucified aboue 1500. yeares agone , before the newe Church was dreampt of . And therefore thou maiest easilie perceaue , that this flocke cannot leade thee to the place that thou doest desire : and consequentlie , that is not the flock that wee should followe . Then let vs come vnto the Roman Church , and demaund , where was this flocke an hundred yeares agone ? They will answere thee , in France , Spaine , England , Germanie ; and so ouer all Christendome . And of thou aske , where it was 500. yeares agone , c c They wil say so : therefore it was so ? they will saie , In the saied places . And a thousand yeares agone likewise : and likewise , a thousand and fiue hundred yeares agone . This flocke then will not leaue thee by the waie , as the others doe , but it will leade thee vnto the verie time of the death and passion of d d This is also most vntrue , for the popish doctrine , from point to point , wee are able to shew , when it began : and how it hath growen by degrees to that which it is , not in a thousand years after Christ . Christ , by continuance of o●● doctrine , and by succession of pastours , which Salomon doeth call the Tabernacle of the sheepe heardes : And therefore this is the place where thou must seeke thy Tabernacle , and quiet thy conscience to the ende that thou bee not a lost sheepe , and that thou bee not readie to turne at euerie blast of new doctrine , e e None such coggers as Papistes , in giuing the sence of the Scriptures , who make not them the rule of their practise , but their practise , how mutable so euer , the rule to giue the sence thereof by . that our new coggers of the Scriptures doe set forth , to deceaue the simple sheepe .

The IIII. Chapter .

TO this fourth chapter , I answere , that with Salomon to finde out the true Church of God , wee as well as you , exhorte Christes sheepe , to followe the tracte of the flocke of Christ , and to feede by the tentes or Tabernacles of his sheepheardes : that so they maie bee ledde on and vp , to Christ himselfe . But then forasmuch as wee haue learned before , by that which hath beene noted in the former Chapter , concerning the fashion of heretiques , especiallie seeing the same confirmed in you , and other heretiques and apostataes in these our daies , that euerie flocke is not Christes flocke , that will pretende so to bee : nor they alwaies his true sheepeheardes , that are so accounted , wee wish euerie one that wilfullie is not disposed to suffer himselfe to bee seduced , by those that falsely thus pretende , to learne to bee able ( as Saint Iohn hath taught all true Christians in the first Epistle and fourth verse ) to trie the spirites , whether they be of God or no , which they shall and may doe in trying both the flockes , and their sheepheardes , by the infallible worde of Christ contained in the Canonicall Scriptures . For Christes sheepe will heare and obey his voice , Ioh. 10. which vndoubtedlie and sufficiently is sounded in the written worde . For the Scriptures are able to make a man wise vnto saluation , through the faith which is in Christ Iesus . For the whole Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God , and is profitable to teach , to improue , to correct , and to instruct in righteousnesse , that the man of God may be absolute , being made perfit vnto all good workes . 2. Tim. 3. And therefore his true sheepeheardes will feede his sheepe , with the sincere milke of this worde , because that is it which they must desire , as new borne babes doe milke , that they may growe vp thereby , if so be they haue tasted how bountifull the Lord is . 1. Pet. 2. And because that is it , according whereunto he that speaketh must speake , because it is writen , if any man speake , let him talke as the words of God 1. Pe. 4. By which rule , if the flockes and sheepeheardes whom wee followe , bee tryed , they shal bee founde the sheepe whose tracte is to bee followed , and the sheepeheardes by whose tentes is safe feeding . And contrarilie by this rule , your flockes and sheepeheardes ( come to the tryall of it when you will ) shal bee founde flockes of goates and not of sheepe , and foxes and wolues , seeking the destruction of the sheepe , rather then true sheepeheardes . But you would make the Reader beleeue , that Salomon in this place by you cyted , out of the first of the Canticles , doeth teach the true Church , safelie alwaies , to pitch her tentes , and to feede by the visible and apparent succession of pastours which from age to age , can leade her without leauing her by the waie euen to Christes time , Which you saie yours can doe , and ours cannot , boldlie aduouching , that vnlesse we be not ashamed to lie , wee cannot shew where our Church or Religion , was an hundreth yeares agoe , and that wee cannot denie , but Luther began to preach our new Gospell , in the yeare 1517. And thus againe , partlie by this note of visible succession of pastours , and partly by vpbrayding vs with certaine differences of opinions amongst vs , about the maner of Christes presence , and diuerse and sundrie fantasticall heresies , that of late daies haue sprung vp , and beene reuiued , you labour to iustifie your Synagogue of Rome , and to condemne our Church of Christ : which thinges you harpe vpon , very much and often afterwarde in this your treatise . Wherefore to aunswere you to all these thinges , here once for all : first I tell you , you offer violence to Salomons wordes , in making them to containe a prophesie of any such perpetuall and visible succession of flockes and pastours , in the possession of one trueth , as you inferre thereupon , and make it the speciall marke and note to discerne Christes true Church , from all that falsely bee so called . For then it should bee contrarie to that view of the state of Christes true Church , which I haue set downe vnto you , and prooued by infallible arguments in the first Chapter : which may not be , se●ing the scripture alwaies agreeth with it selfe . And yet the Church may haue good vse of Salomons aduise giuen her here , in her greatest ruins and interruptions , of her ordinarie and visible forme and beautie , in looking to the visible flockes and sheepheardes , that were before that God so chastised her : as in Achaz time , in looking to and following those , that were in Dauids and Salomons time● in Manasses and Ammons time , in looking to and following those in Ezechiaths & Iehosaphats times : & in the time of the captiuity , in looking to & following those , that were in Iosiahs time . And yet doe not so take me , as though I thought , that either Christes true Church , or the true sheepheards thereof , did at anie time vtter●● cease or faile : for I am perswaded they neuer did , nor shall . But this onelie is the thing that I now say , that though this place of the Canticles doeth shewe , that in no time there is any true flock● of Christ , but there hath gone before a flocke , and shepheardes , which that may safely followe euen to the finding of Christ : yet it proueth not , that there hath alwaies immediately gone before it , from time to time , some visible & so apparent flockes and shepheards , one immediately succeeding another , as that the names of the sheepe and shepheardes , are alwaies famously knowen , and therefore easily to be reckoned vp of euery one : which are the thinges , which you seeme to inferre hereof , and therefore require of vs to bee done , or else you would faine make the Reader beleeue , that wee neither are the Church , haue the trueth , nor true & right ministers thereof . Wherein , many waies , you offer vs great wrong , for after you your selfe ( distrusting belike ) that in any seate or line of Bishops , without interruption , this can be performed ( speaking of your line of Popes , whereof all the sort of you bragge in this case most , cap. 8. to vpholde and drawe along your right succession ) you tell vs flatly , you meane not , when you speak thereof , onely of them , but of al Bishops elswhere , that they may continue it , in the interruptions of that liue somewhere else : and yet at our handes , you require vnder the penalty aforesaied , that we should from age to age , and from person to person , orderly succeeding one another , deduce ours . For when we say it was continued alwaies by some , in some other places , when wee can no longer finde it in your Romish see , whereinto by little , and little , you haue craftily ●rept : and wherein for many hundred yeares before , men of our Church , and Religion sate and taught , you reiect that our answere as a shift . Another wrong that you offer vs herein , is this , that your Antichristian Synagogue hauing according to the prophesie Reuel. 12. persecuted our flocke into the wildernes , with the sheepherdes thereof , you require that wee should , euen in respect of such decaied & distressed times of the church , giue you as euident demonstration of our flockes and sheepheardes , as may bee giuen thereof in the florishing and peaceable state of the same . For there is no reason in requiring that , in the decaies and ruines of the Church , which accompanieth alwaies the Church in her prosperous and standing estate . Besides , herein you offer vs the greater wrong , in that notwithstanding it be graunted of vs , that both perpetuall continuance of the Catholique faith , and also some kinde of succession therefore of teachers , be necessary alwaies for the continuation of the Church , yet you cannot but knowe ( especially seing that prophesie before named , & that also 2. Thes. 2. must bee fulfilled of the church of Christ , in respect of some time of her soiourning here on earth ) that thereupon it followeth not , that therefore their succession is visible and demonstrable alwaies , in your sence , or else wee must yeelde , that there were none such . For who is so simple , but hee is resolued , that all men now aliue come by lineall succession from some of Adams children , and yet fewe or none can bee found that can rightlie , no not the skilfullest harrold of them all , deduce their pedagree from thence . Must it therefore followe that there hath not alwaies beene , for all that , a certaine lineall descent ? if you should thus inferre , euery one might laugh at your follie . For long processe of time , distance of place , betwixt some of our progenitours and vs , lacke of Cronicles , or the neglect of such genealogyes in them , alterations of names and countries , and diuerse such like things maketh the one not onely hard , but for the most part impossible , and yet no man doubteth of the certainty of the other . Euen so in this our present question , most certaine it is , there haue alwaies beene both flockes & sheepherdes , to continue both the trueth & Christes church . For that wee graunt is necessarie : but yet through continuance of time , force of your Antichristian persecution , distance perhaps of the flockes and sheepeheards in place from vs , that God in some ages vnder your tyranny hath vsed to continue his church by , and lacke of faithfull and carefull writers to cronicle such matters , especially your wouluish and foxy sheepheardes , beeing alwaies watchfull , and mindefull to their vttermost , either to blot out their memories quite , in not suffering their Croniclers to mention them ; or else in causing them to deface them , with strange name and false slaunders , maketh it very hard ( yea if impossible no marueile , you hauing the euidences , whereby we should doe it , for the most part , a long time in your owne keeping , to vse at your owne pleasure ) for vs to name from time to time , the places and persons , that haue alwaies succeeded one another , for the continuance of our faith and Church . But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles : further I saie , as I saied before , that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture , to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth , and therefore to bee followed : and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes , and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto : that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession . For so ( as I haue shewed in the first Chapter , and it is not denyed of your selues ) sundry heretiques in their times , haue done and can doe still . If therefore you say , you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes , that together with their visible personall succession , haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith , I answere , first , you begge still the thing in question , in supposing that , to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards , which we say , and are able to proue , they fell from many hundreth yeares ago .

Secondly , I tell you once againe , and now this time for all , that you shall neuer bee able to proue , but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth , and also trueth from it , and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth , nor the Church of Christ by . Thirdly , for your collection out of this place , for the iustifying of your Church before ours , because ( as you say ) from time to time , for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares , you can shew the descent and continuance of yours , and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares , no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene , we affirme that both in the one , and in the other , herein you write vntruely . For first , if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine , or gouernement thereof , bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times , or for many hundreth yeares after , there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other , as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ , the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon . The simplicity of the ministerie that then was , is turned amongst you into a pompous , Lordly , and more then Princely prelacy . And then the Church was fedde , with the pure worde of God , conteyned in the Scriptures , and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God ; and with you , as carefullie as may bee , that is kept from her , and in steede thereof , shee is fedde with the dreames , inuentions , and traditions of men . Then she was taught to account the name of Christ , the onelie name , whereby commeth saluation , Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared : Math. 22. and now with you , besides him , Saintes , Angels , your owne merites , and the merites of others , satisfaction in this life by your selues , and after by others , with a number of baser things , must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God , and in the most glorious worke of our saluation : as though hee either could not or would not , go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe , and by himselfe , but had so begunne it , as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes . Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her , that Christ , in saying , Hoc est corpus meum , this is my body , meant , that it was a signe & figure of his body , as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus , the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere , in the ancient fathers : and now contrary to nature , yea to the verie nature of a sacrament , contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners , yours teach , that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes , thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie , that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament , receiueth in by his mouth , the naturall bodie of Christ . If thus I were disposed to go a long , as farre as I might , and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference , betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is , and that which hath beene , I should euen therewith make a great booke . But further of these differences I haue noted , as you may reade Chapter 19. & 20. and else where in this booke . And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse , hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke ( who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least ) and the Popish church , that now is ; and infinite be the differences then , betwixt the Church before , in her puerer times , and the Popish Synagogue now . And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge , neither you , nor all your fellowes , shall euer be able to proue indeede , that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ , vnto these daies .

And to come to the other point , therein I saie , you write vntruely also . For so far of is it , that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace , and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before : that there is nothing more common with vs , in answering this your obiection of newnes , then to tell you , that so farre of is it , that it is newe indeede , that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell , taught both in the olde testament and newe : and therefore ( though it grieue you ) wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets , Christ and his Apostles , taught the verie same , and no other , and all the ancient doctours and fathers , as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught , by the Scriptures , were sheepheardes of our church , and teachers of our Religion . Indeede , we confesse , that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time ( 2. King . 22. ) found the booke of God , and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light , that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses , Amon and others , had for a certaine season lien hid : So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God , to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith , which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother , and hide from the eies of the Church . And yet hereupon it no more followeth , that he was the first that preached our Religion , then vpon the former it followed , that Hilkiah was then first the meanes , to preach the lawe of God . And I tell you truely , that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie , that anie man of anie reason , iudgement and learning ( as you would seeme to bee ) should be so farre past all shame , as confidently to set downe in print , that wee cannot deny , but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion : & that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before , that taught it : when you cannot be ignorant ( vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse ) that we name vnto you verie manie , and that in all ages , to haue beene of the same Religion and Church , that wee are now of . For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs , then to tell you , that all the ancient Patriarches , Prophets , Euangelists , and Apostles ( witnesse the canonicall Scriptures ) liued and died in our Church and Religion . The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs ( whose number is infinite ) that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ , vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions , that were in that time . For during that time , our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church , and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions , for the which especiallie , wee account your Religion Antichristian ( vnlesse it were of heretiques , and such as had learned it of them ) in those daies once thought of . And after for three hundreth yeares more at least , in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion , and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you , all the ancient doctours , and the Christians that liued in their times ( as wee haue diuerse times sayed , so haue wee often so proued it , that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs ) were fully ours . And though after these times , when Boniface the third , had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas , the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall , or vniuersall Bishop , the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other , & hasted to his height : yet ( as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface , and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe , where you bragge againe , as you doe here , of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance ) there were after these times from time to time , that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof , and set themselues against it . For Bertram & Iohannes Scotus , were with vs against your grosse real presence , aboue 700. years ago . Trithemius maketh mention of a booke writen 400. yeares ago , which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus , for ( as Sabellicus and Platina testifie ) much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie : in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth , of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie , and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church . Gisburne also in his storie writeth , that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus , preached earnestly , that the Pope was Antichrist : and that they had thirtie followers , whom they brought into England , who were persecuted then , here for preaching that , and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church . Much about this time ( but somewhat rather before ) a company of Christians ( who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses ) did florish : and there were great multitudes of them , euen about Tholossa ( whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacon ) who did vehemently resist your Pope , and his proceedings , setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop , whom they called Bartholomew , oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion , euen as wee doe : witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others , in their Stories . Hildegarde , though shee were a Nunne , yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome , and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers . So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time ( namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland ) very saltly taunt , and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition . In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions , whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names , to disgrace them withall . For your frendes call them Waldenses , Albigenses , pauperes de Lugduno , Picardos , Boslauienses , Thaboritas , and Leonistas , changing their titles and names , according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in , howsoeuer their Religion was all one . And these haue beene of ancient time , and of great continuance , in very many places , namely in Prouince , Sarmatia , Lyuonia , Bohemia , Morauia , Polonia , Silesia , Belgia , and in Calabria : and of you wheresoeuer , or whensoeuer they were , they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques : and yet if their opinions bee iudged of , not as you ( the more to disgrace them ) haue charged them , but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies , haue set them downe , they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe , and condemned the same for errours in you , that wee now doe . They are of 400. yeares continuance at least . For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne ( for he was Pope ere he died ) writeth , handling the stories of Boeme , that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth , that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde , and found sound , concerning God and the merites of Christ ( for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes , to make vp full satisfaction and redemption , is of farre later inuention ) and their life ( saieth hee ) was commendable , but in the doctrine of the Sacrament , they were found to differ from the Church of Rome . Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago , who ( as he himselfe saith ) was often at the examination of them , in his booke of inquisitions , writing of them , calling them Leonists , confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time , and that some saied , they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles : & he further reports that they had great shew of holy life , in liuing iustly before men , and that they beleeued all things well of God , and all the articles contained in the creede : onely he chargeth them , that they hated & blasphemed the Romish Church . And this he further writes , that there was no land , wherein that sect did not creepe , & speaking but of them that were then but in one cuntrey , yet this he testifieth , that they had there , ten schooles in one parish , called Camach , that there were forty congregations or Churches of them , euery one hauing their leaders or teachers , and that their power in his time was such , that none ( as hee saieth ) durst then openlie resist them . There are yet to bee seene ( as good authours report ) the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them , writen three hundreth yeares ago ; namely of Narbonensis , Arelatensis , Aquensis , and Albanensis : yea 355. yeares ago , I read , there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them . And yet though both of ancient times , and later daies , the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty , they and their successours continue vnto this day , in great numbers in Bohemia , and in other places .

But because you very oft in this your booke , and the rest of your side continually beare the simple reader , and vnlearned Christian in hand , that before Luther there were none of our religion , that haue so condemned your Church and religion , as we doe : I wil vouchsafe for the better inabling of euery one , that shall read this my answere , to see your vanity and impiety ( though this which I haue noted already be sufficient to lay open your folly ) to proceed yet somewhat further in this matter . Wherefore ( to go on in the course of times ) though your popish Church hath bene in her ruffe , and at the heighest , that euer she was , this latter 400 yeares , yet we are able to shew , that there haue bene many euen in this time from time to time ( and that in sundry places ) that haue ioyned with vs against you , & that therefore , there is no such newnesse , or strangenes in our religion a d doings , as you would make the ignorant beleeue . For in the dayes of Gregory the 9 , in the yeare 1230 the Greeke Church , and other Easterne Churches did quite forsake communion with yours : who euer since ioyne with vs , in a number of thinges against you , as namely in withstanding the supremacy of your Romish Bishop , as appeareth not onely by one Epistle that Germanus Petriarch of Constantinople wrote vnto the pope in the yeare 1237 , but also by a large booke , writen about the yeare 1384 by Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica , wherein he doeth not onely confute his Supremacy , euen as we doe , but also he enueigheth against al those that hold communion with the Popish or latin Church . And ( as it appeareth in ancient record , in the Church of Herford , wherein 29 of the Articles , wherein they differ from the Church of Rome , are set downe ) they ioine not only with vs in this point , in seperating themselues from the Romish Church , & in denying the popes supremacie ( which is the very foundation of your Church and religion ) but also in denying purgatory , and masses for the dead , in holding it lawfull for their ministers , to enioy the benefit of matrimony , in not vsing any priuate masse , in not denying the cup to any that receaue , in not ministring the communion in priuate houses , in not vsing extreme vnction , and in sundry other points . And by diuers Epistles writen from thence of late , extant in print both in greeke and latin , to Chitreus and other Germans , it euidently appeareth , that they ioyne with vs against the Romish Church in many other great and weighty points of our religion , and that great hope there is , that they might easily be brought to ioyne with vs in the rest . Besides these Easterne churches , euen here in these westerne parts , euident it is , that there haue beene many great , learned and famous persons , with innumerable followers , at all tymes from age to age , in these latter 400 yeares , when the tyranny of your popes to represse them hath bene the greatest and strongest , that euer it was , which yet haue openly with vs stood forth against them and their religion . For Fredericke the second ( as diuers other Emperours had beene before him ) as namely Constantine the 5. Leo his sonne , and Constantine the 6 in the East , and Henry the 4 and 5 in the West ) was a notable Antagonist of the 3 popes in his time , contending against them , to maintaine the authority of Christian princes against their vsurped Supremacy ouer them , about the yeare 1260 , as notoriously the Cronicles of those times writen by your owne men Platina , Sabelicus and others declare . And 20 years before that , Krantzius testifieth in his history : that there were many that preached openly in Sueuia , that the Pope was an heretique , his clergy Symoniakes , and generally they all seducers of the people . Ten yeares after that , florished Arnoldus De nouâ villâ , a Spaniard , who taught , that Sathan had then seduced the world , that the faith them taught , was but such as deuils had ( meaning belike a bare historicall faith ) that the pope led men to hell , that he and his clergy did falsifie the doctrine of Christ , that masses were naught & not to be saied for the dead &c. and therefore your popish Church condemned him for an heretique . Much what about the same time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore , a master and chiefe ruler then in Paris , who went as farre as Arnoldus , applying the same Scriptures , which concerne Antichrist , as we doe , to the pope and his clergy : and therefore hee also was condemned for an heretique , and his bookes burnt by your popish rout . And in the yeare 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a master of Paris also , tooke this Williams part against the pope , & wrote a booke in his defence . In the yeare 1290 Petrus Iohannes , a Minorite , directly preached the pope to be Antichrist , and Rome great Babylon , and therefore he was burnt after he was dead . 30 yeares and more before this , Robert Grosthead , a famous learned man , and Bishop of Lincolne ( for hee died in the yeare one thousand two hunderd fifty three ) was a great withstander of the popes tyranny , and three dayes before his death , hauing conference with his clergy , he laboureth to make them see by sundry demonstrations , that the pope was Antichrist , and his doings Antichristian . King Philip of France , about the yeare one thousand three hundred , was a great withstander of the Supremacy , which now the Pope challengeth , and a resister in his dominions , of sundry of his enormities ; and William Nagareta , and the prelates of France , then ioyned with their king against the pope . Grosthead , this king Philip , and his clergy , as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England , in the yeare 1346 , despised the popes curse , & appealed from him to God . There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albons , a notable Epistle of one Cassiodorus to the Church of England : wherein are layed forth a number of lamentable abuses in the Roman Church : in the yeare one thousand three hundred twenty eight . In the Extrauagants , we reade , that Marsillius Patauinus , Iohannes de Ganduno , Michael Chesenas , Petrus de Carborea , and Iohannes de Poliaco ( all great learned men ) were condemned by the Pope for preaching against his Supremacy , and other errours of that Church of his , about the yeare 1326. There were then also many learned men more , that disputed & wrote against his Supremacy , & which took part with Ludouicke the Emperour against him , as William Occam , Luitpoldus , Andreas Landanensis , Vlricus Hangenor , the Emperors treasurer , and others . Dantes , liuing in the yeare one thousand three hundred , wrote against the Pope , the orders of religious men , and the Doctours of the Decrees , saying , that these were three great enemies to the trueth : he flatly hath left in writing in his canticle of Purgatory , that the Pope of a pastor was become a woulfe , & that he was the whoar of Babylon . In the yeare 1350. Gregory Ariminensis , Andreas de Castro , and Burdianus , taught as we doe ; against your doctrine of freewill and merites . Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine , preached openly against your doctrine of mans merites , and praying to Saints &c. And Franciscus Petrarcha florishing about that time . in his ninteenth & twentieth Epistle , calleth the seate of the papacy , the whoar of Babylon , the temple of heresie and treachery : and in such sort describeth it , both at Rome , and at Avinion ( where then the Pope sate ) that he ( as it ther seemeth ) counted it the greatest euil , that can befall a man , to be made pope . Iohannes de rupe scissâ , about 10. yeares after , in the yeare 1340 , was so sore a rebuker of the abhominations of the cleargy , that he was therefore imprisoned : he also compared the pope to a bird , richly clad with other birdes feathers : & yet so , as that for the pride of that birde he prophecieth , that the time would come , when the other birdes would call for their feathers againe , and so make him know himselfe . Conradus Hagar one of the city Herbipolis , about this time preached 24 yeares ( as it appeareth in the Recordes of Otho , bishop of that City ) that the masse was no propitiatory sacrifice either for the quicke , or the dead . And within three yeares after , the booke called Paenitentiarius Asini , was writen , wherein the Pope is resembled to the Woulfe , the Cleargy to the Foxe , and the Laitie to the poore Asse . In the yeare one thousand three hundred and fifty , Gerrhardus Ridder , wrote a book , called Lachrima Ecclesiae , wherein he vehemently inueigheth against begging Friers . Michael Chesenas before mentioned , amongst other things , preached , that the pope was Antichrist , and Rome Babylon . Hee had many followers , whereof I read some were burned , as Iohannes de Castilone , & Franciscus de Arcatarâ , and he himselfe beeing Prouincial of the Grey Friers , was depriued and condemned , in the yeare one thousand three hundred twenty two , or there abouts . And in the time of Innocent the 6. 1353 , I read , that two Franciscane Friers were burnt at Auinion : whereof the one was one Iohn de Rochetalayda , otherwise called Hayabolus , witnes Premonstrat : and Henry Herford . Who ( as Henry of Herford writeth ) preached in the time of Pope Clement the 6 , in the yeare 1345 , that he was commanded by God to preach , that Rome was Babylon , and that the pope , and his Cardinals were very Antichrist : and beeing brought before the pope for it , to his face he boldly did aduouch the same . Brigit ( whom you your selues haue made a Saint ) about the yeare 1370 , in her booke of Reuelations , was a most bitter rebuker of the pope and his cleargy : and so likewise was Katherina Senensis 2 yeares after , as Antonine writeth in his 3 part of his story , terming the pope a murderer of soules , a spiller & piller of the flocke of Christ , saying , that they were more abhominable , than Iewes ; more cruel , than Iudas ; more vniust , than Pilate ; & worse then Lucifer himselfe . And the former of them plainly prophesied , that their kingdom should be thrown downe as a milstōe into the deepe : & that the clergy had turned al Gods commandements into these two words , Da pecuniam , giue money . Mathias Parisiensis a Bohemian , about the year 1370 wrot a large book of Antichrist , prouing him to be come , & that the pope was he , & the Locusts in the Apocalyps ( he saith ) are his hypocritical clergy . About this very time Greg. the 11 , sent a bul to the Arch-Bishop of Prage , stirring him vp thereby to persecute one Melitzius , and his followers , who is charged in that bull to haue preached , that the Pope was Antichrist , and to haue had congregations following him . As Brushius writeth , in the yeare 1390. there were burned at Bringa 36. citizens of Moguntia , for the doctrine of the Waldenses , holding also that the Pope was Antichrists and Massens recordeth , that there were burnt about the same time 140. for the same cause in the prouince of Narbon : and the same authour testifieth , that in the yeare 1210. 24 suffered at Paris , and that the next yeare there were 400. burned for the like cause ; 80. beheaded ; Prince Armericus hanged ; and the Lady of the castle stoned to death . Houeden also noteth , that about these times , there were great numbers put to death , in France for this cause of Religion . Trithemius writeth that Ecchardus a dominicke Frier , was put to death at Hiddelberge in the yeare 1330 , for withstanding the Popish doctrine . There is an olde monument of processe against 44● . persons for the same cause in Pomerania , Marchia and places there about in the yeare 1391. And certaine it is , that if the recordes and statutes of all countries in these westerne partes should bee searched , euen thereby would it appeare , that the number of those that haue gainesaied the Pope , & his proceedings , in the time of his greatest florishing , and cruelty ' haue beene from time to time infinite , how much greater then , is it likely , was the number of them , that informer times ( when hee was not growen to that power to vexe the seruants of god , as he hath beene for these last 300. or 400. yeares ) haue professed the trueth boldely against him ? Thus are we come to Iohn Wicklifes time , who florished here in England about the yeare of the Lord 1372 ; and yet I haue , for the auoiding of too , too much tediousnes , omitted the names of a number of famous men , that haue also withstoode poperie , and ioyned with vs in sundrypointes against them , in those times that I haue run thorow , as namely Alcuinus Archbishop of Canterburie , directly with vs against them in the matter of reall presence , Aelfricus , Ioachim Abbot of Calabria , Arnoldus Brixianus , Almericus a learned Bishop in Innocents time the third , iudged a● heretique , for teaching ( as we doe ) against images ; Beringaiius , Reymundus Earle of Tolossa , Lord Peter de Cogneriis , Eudo Duke of Burgandie , the Archbishop of Armah , and infinite others . I might also here againe haue remembred that with H. Mutius writeth , of an 100 burnt in one day in Alsatia , vnder Innocent the 3 , in the yeare 1215 , when Antichrist in the Lateran councell , bringing in the new and monstrous article of Transubstantiation , shewed himselfe to be euen growen to his highest degree of iniquity .

But to let these passe , and to proceede : Iohn Wicklife ( as it is famously knowen ) was with vs against you in the most and weightiest things betwixt you and vs in controuersie , and therefore in your councell of Constance , you condemned him and caused his dry and rotten bones to be taken vp againe and burned . Whiles he liued , he had many great learned men here in England that ioyned with him , as namely Nicholas Herford , Philip Repington , Iohn Ashton , and Laurence Redeman , and so many followers had he , and they and hee had such fauour and protection , especially of the Duke of Lancaster , that then was , that though your prelates here in England vexed and molested them what they could ; yet they and their fauourers in short tyme grew to that strength and multitude , that by the yeare 1422 Henry Chicheley then Archbishop of Canterbury certified the pope , that they all could not be suppressed , they were so many , but by force of warre . Now betwixt Iohn Wicklifes tyme and the florishing of Iohn Hus ( which was about the yeare 1410 ) very many both here and elsewhere for following Wicklife were persecuted , as namely here in England William Swinderley , Walter Brute , William Sautry , Iohn Badby , and William Thorpe , whereof diuerse were most cruellie burned . Then when Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prage had beene burnt at the councell of Constance , for taking the like course in Boemia , that Iohn Wicklife & his fellowes had done before here in England , about the yeare 1417 , the religion that we now professe began to gather so great strength in Boemia , that the professours therof were able , not onely to defend themselues , by force of armes , from the intended oppressions against them by the Bishop of Rome and his adherentes , but also to get many glorious victories against the strongest powers , that the pope could raise against them . Now from the yeare 1410 , when Hus began to florish , vnto Luthers tyme 1517 , wonderful many both there in Boemia , here in England and elsewhere , continually rose vp and stoode forth , euen vnto the death , against popery , in the profession of our religion . Amongst whom here in England , at one tyme , in the yeare 1413 there were burned in Saint Giles fielde , vnder the name of Lollardes 36. Amongst whom Sir Roger Acton Knight , Master Iohn Browne , and Master Iohn Beuerley , were put to death . After , 1415 , Richard Claydon , and Richard Turning were burnt in Smithfield : about this tyme 16. of name , were persecuted in Kent , and very many in other places of this Land . Within a while after , in the yeare one thousand foure hundred twenty two , William Tailor was burnt here , and two yeares after that , William White was burne : and betwixt that time and the yeare 1430 , father Abraham of Colchester , Iohn Waddon , and Richard Houeden were burnt . And about that time Paul Crow a Bohemian was burnt there , & Thomas Rhodonensis , at Rome . And ere Luther beganne to preach against the Pope and his doctrine , from the yeare one thousand foure hundred and thirty , here suffered for the same religion that we now preach and embrace , amongst many others Richard Wich , Iohn Goose , one Babran , one Ierome , and others with him , Iames Marden , William Tilsworth , one Father Roberts , and Sir Iohn Olde-castle , the Lord Cobham . Now since Luther , I hope you will not deny , but the number of them that are on our side against you , euen in these Westerne parts , cary such a visible shew , that you cannot but heare and see the multitudes thereof , round about you , at home and abroad to be such , that I dare say your harts begin to feare , that if the number increase but a while longer , as it hath done of late , your Roman prelate is like to turne vp his heeles , & to leese his glory in these westerne parts , aswel as hee hath done long ago , in the Easterne cuntries . And therefore you cannot but likewise thinke , that he doth very wisely & prouidently to send before hand ( as he doth ) his Ihesuits amongst the sauage and wilde Indians , to prepare him there a new kingdome , against he hath lost his old here . For not onely vnder your owne noses in Italie and Spaine , and elsewhere , wheresoeuer your antichristian tyranny causeth your religion to haue outward and publicke allowance , to your griefe you see , doe what you can , our religion findeth still many constant confessours euen vnto death , and hath done now these many yeares : but also you know , that so many kingdomes and cuntries , haue giuen & yet doe , open allowance to ours , and defyance to yours as antichristian ; that by this time , you cannot but see , your old argument of vniuersality , groweth fast to be out of date & force with you , and beginneth a pace to stand on our side . For euen in these Westerne parts , our doctrine is embraced and professed , and hath beene now a good while , with the allowance of publicke authority , and yours openly defaced , writen and preached against as antichristian , in the kingdomes of England , Ireland , Scotland , Denmarke , Sweden , and France ; likewise in Bohemia , and in Polonia in diuers whole territories & Dukedomes , in Holand and Zeland , and in the Prince of Russia his dominions . And besides who knoweth not , that in like maner it is now , & hath beene long , in the Dukedome of Saxonie and of Brunswicke , in the dominions of the Palsgraue of Rhene , the Dukedome of Wittenberg , & in the territories of the Lantgraue of Hessia , and the Marques of Brandeburge , besides the great common weals of Heluetia , Rhetia , Vallis Tellina , and the cuntries of diuers other noble men in other places of Germany and elsewhere ?

But they that hereby sufficiently doe not perceiue the folly & falshood of your saying , that before Luther we can name none to haue beene of this mind , I refer them for further confutation of that your shamelesse vntrueth , vnto Illiricus Catalogue of the witnesses of the trueth , to the Centuries of them of Magdeburge , and to master Foxes Actes and monuments of the Church , where they shal finde not onely much of these thinges , here briefly touched by me , more at large set down , but also further proofe out of good authors , that this religion which wee nowe professe , hath had alwaies since Christ , to these dayes in once place or other , both embracers and teachers of it . And therefore though it hath not alwayes had so visible and glorious a succession of pompous , ambitious , and proud prelates , as yours hath had , for these later tymes , since Antichrist grew to his pride and height ; yet it hath neuer beene without flockes and sheepheardes , one going before another in the profession of our religion , euen vp from our dayes vnto Christ . But when for very shame , conuicted with the force of the trueth , you are driuen to confesse , that in some parte it may be true , that there were alwaies some that ioyned with vs , yet to driue vs from alleadging their names and succession against you , you say , they yet helde so many different and lewde opinions , that we cannot fetch any continuance to our faith or religion from them . Whereunto I answer , first , that we are not to beleeue your reportes of them , but their owne Apologies and writings : whereby it appeareth , that it hath bene alwaies your fashion ( the more thereby to discredit than ) to charge them to holde a number of absurd opinions , which they neuer held . Besides , I say , though it may be in some points , we and they differ , yet as long , as we & they agree in the foundation , we haue learned to account them our brethren . 1. Cor. 3. and so to ioyne with them , in that which they hold well . And lastly ( to driue you from this shift ) we tell you , that if you will countenance your religion and Church with none , but with those that agree with you fully in all pointes , there is neuer an ancient father for 600 yeares , no not any writer , or pastour in the Church of any good credit , for 1000 yeares , that you may make any reckoning of : & that ( which then wil go very neare you ) euen since Augustine the monkes comming into England ( as I haue saied ) and for 300 yeares after him , your glorious succession must faile : there are so many apparent differences for so long space at least , betwixt the opinions , that your pastors and doctors hold now , and them that were held then . Take heede therefore , whiles you measure thus to vs , and so seeke to disgrace them , whose names we cite , that the same be not measured to you againe , & so the necke of your visible Succession be broken , to the perill of the life of your Church , which draweth her breath thereby .

Now to come to your disgracing of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius , and your laying to our charge , all the heresies , that haue sprung vp , since Luther began first to preach against you , therein do you vs manifold wrong . For who knoweth not , that it is no strange or new thing , to finde the deare seruants of God , and the true members of Christs Church sometimes and in some things differing , and hoatly dissenting in opinion ? Doe we not read ( Mat. 16. ) that one thing seemed good to Peter , and the contrary seemed , and was indeed , good in Christs iudgement ? Did not Peter take one course , and Paul another at Antioch , Galat. 2. insomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and sharpely ? And finde we not ( Act. 15. ) Paul and Barnabas , growen to that heat of contention , about the receiuing againe or refusing of Iohn Marke , that they parted companies ? And if we leaue the Scriptures and go downe to later times , and view the state of the Church euen in the purest times thereof , we shall finde it no strange thing to see diuersities of opinions , and therefore also hoat contentions , betwixt those , whom yet we will and must account the true members of the Church . Betwixt Polycrates & Victor , the East and West Churches , Irenaeus and certaine other Bishops of France , and some Popes , the contention about the obseruation of Easter , was such Euse . 5.21.22.23.24 . that one side excommunicated another , that diuers Synods were held to appease it , and yet it continued 300 yeares & more . And who knoweth not , that there was contention betwixt Cyprian & other Bishops of Africke ; & Cornelius & Stephanus Bishops of Rome , for that they euen them at Rome , encroched too much ( as the other thought ) to intermeddle within the iurisdictions of the Bishops of Africke , in receiuing condemned & excommunicated fugitiues , that ran to Rome from thence . Neither was the controuersie small betwixt them , about the rebaptizing of those , that had beene before onely baptized by heretiques . For proofe of both which points , I refer you to the third and fourth Epistles of Cyprians first booke of Epistles , and to the first Epistle of his second booke , and to the third and fourth Chapters of Eusebius seuenth booke . Basil also , and the Church of Caesarea ( as it is well knowen ) were at hoat contention about Ecclesiasticall songes and ceremonies . Theophilus of Alexandria , and Chrysostome of Constantinople , had betweene them a violent and troublesome contention , and great part taking there was of both sides , and that along time . Cyrillus of Alexandria , wrote against Theodoret , in a controuersie of Catholicke religion . Betwixt Miletius a Bishop of Aegypt , and one Peter of Alexandria , and their followers of both sides , there arose and continued a long whyle , to the great trouble of the Church , a lamentable contention . All Ecclesiasticall stories ( for the most part ) haue with griefe made report of these : yea downe from Christ to the age wherein euery one of them wrote , it too plainly appeares in them , that there was neuer yet any one century of yeares , but it hath had new contentions and those many , not onely betwixt heretiques and catholickes , but also euen amongst those that otherwise of both sides , were to bee reputed sounde Christians . Hierom and Augustine ( as all men will confesse ) were in their times worthy so to be accounted , and yet it appeareth in their works , that there was great diuersity of opinions , and that in many things of great moment betwixt them . Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus and Chrysostome ( of whom I spake before ) were both famous Christians , and yet the stories of their tymes shew , that they were bitter enemies . It is notoriously knowen , that amongst the Bishops assembled against the Arrians at the councell of Nice , Constantine by the bookes offered vnto him one against an other found , that they then had amongst themselues many contentions and varieties of opinions : and infinite it were , to reckon vp all the examples that might easily be found to this end . Indeede I reade , for these and such like differences , the Iewes and Heathen people , mocked at the Christians , and hereby sought mightily to deface them and their religion : seuenth Stromat : Clement : Alexandrini . But I neuer read , that either then or since , euer any sounde Christian ( though for this cause they tooke occasion to mourne ) yet that they or any of them tooke occasion to condemne either the one side , or the other , or both ; as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Christ . For , notwithstanding these differences , they saw , that they ioyned togither otherwise as brethren in holding togither the fundamentall pointes . And that they , whom you call Lutherans & Zuinglians , doe so , the booke of late set forth of the Harmony of the confessions of all the Churches , that hereabouts professe the Gospell , doeth make it most manifest and euident . And therfore for any force , that this reason carieth with it , this their difference ( which is in effect only about the maner of the presence of Christ in the Sacrament ) they both may be members of the true ancient Catholick Church , as wel as these other , whom I haue named .

Another wronge that herein they offer vs is this , that beeing themselues at variance amongst themselues , and hauing had many and great contentions , and yet hauing still some , about as great a matter of religion , as this : that yet forgetting the beame in their owne eies , like hypocrites , they are so busie with the moate in ours . For who so readeth the histories of their Popes writen by their owne frendes , besides a number of hoat and contentious schismes , troubling all Christendome , for many yeares togither , yea sometimes fourty years , continuing betwixt their Popes & Antipopes , he shall finde it so common a thing for the succeeding Pope , to contrary the proceedings of his predecessour , as though the chiefe glorie of their papacy lay in that : and therefore , poore Gratian tooke a combersome worke in hand , to make a concorde of such discording Canons . Their religion considered , it is one of the greatest controuersies that can be , whither the pope or a generall councell , haue the superiour authority ; and so must be the carier of the Churches tongue , to decide and determine controuersies : and yet euen in this controuersie , they are so at concorde , that the councell of Constance and Basil , determined one way , and the councels of Florence and Ferraria the other way , and yet both sides hath his stout champions . The Scotistes and Thomistes many an hundred yeares haue beene at contention , & yet ( doubtles ) are not agreed , about the conception of the Virgin Mary , whither it were in sinne or no , & about diuers & sundry other great mysteries of their religion . Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ ( wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity ) yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues , he should scarse euer knowe , when to make an ende . For there be some of them that holde , that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth ( as it appeareth in the Recantation , that they prescribe to Beringarius ) others ( as Guymund : de Consecra : Dist: 2. ) thinke that too grosse . Some ( as Gardener ) would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum , a certaine thing that is , but they cannot tell what : others now would haue it to note that , which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine . Scotus and Innocentius the fourth , holde consecration to be , not by the fiue wordes , but by Christs blessing : others holde now that it is done , by the fiue wordes . When it commeth to the eating , some holde that it entreth the mouth , but no further : others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke , but not into the guttes : others wil haue it to go thither also . Infinite are the questions , that they are fallen into about this matter . And in their last conuenticle at Trident , where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores , yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs , Archbishop Catharinus , and Frier Soto ; and that about no small matters , namely , about assured confidence of the fauour of God : Predestination , originall sinne , free-will , and such like matters ; Insomuch , that for all the councell could doe , for six yeares together , they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another . The same Catharin also , wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall , laying therein to his charge 200. errours . Contention also the same Catharin had , with Franciscus Torrensis , a man otherwise of his owne faction , about single life of priests , & residence of Bishops , both which , the one helde was ( as hee taught therein ) warranted by Gods worde , the other stoutly holding the contrary . In the Articles of iustification , free grace , and originall sinne , Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen , in his second tome , wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue , contending to proue , that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes . But what should I take vpon me , to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them : For certaine it is , they are so many and infinite , that a man , if he were disposed , might write a booke of a whole quire of paper , consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions , that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes , about points and questions of religion . And yet see , as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them , they brag of vnity amongst the simple , and labour our disgrace , with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs , especially about this one point , of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament .

But seeing now hereby in parte you see , at what agreement they are , I hope you thinke it reason ; that they should agree better amongest themselues , before they insult any more against vs , for our disagreement . Lastly , they doe vs wrong , in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion , in that since Luther beganne to preach , there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques . For wee read , that immediatly after the Apostles tymes , euen within few yeares , Epiphanius by his tyme , could reckon vp eighty , and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies , which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell , and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore , but Sathan , who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede , vseth to sowe also his tares : Matthew the thirteenth . And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection , that some , aswell affected to the Gospell then belike , as you be now , were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles , and their doctrine . But Iohns answere is , they went out from vs , but they were not of vs : for if they had beene of vs , they would haue continued with vs . But this came to passe , that it might appeare , that they were not all of vs : 1. Iohn . 3. Euen so , wee answere you concerning those , that you say , haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs , and fallen into heresies . Yet further , so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe , in that not onely you knowe , we shun communion with them , as wel as you : but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world , that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them , and in confuting of them from time to time . Wherfore I conclude , that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force , for the iustification either of your vocation , Church , or religion .

The V. Chapter .

THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis ( of whom we haue spoken before ) for he saith in the booke aboue named , that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke , a a This rule is sound and good , but it quite ouerthroweth popery , because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith . For ●he contrary is certaine both by scripture , and all sound antiquity . that hath nothing in greater commendation , then the true religion of the Catholick faith : yea , although it were the wisest man in the world , and the greatest Philosopher , and the fairest speaker that euer was , if he came to speake against the old doctrine , that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers , time out of mind , we ought ( saieth he ) to disdaine that learned Clarke , with al his philosophy & cunning , & to holde our selues to the ancient opinion of the church , the which hath continued vntill this present day . b b But such as all popery , and no part of our religion . And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine , that was not heard of before , contrary vnto that , that hath euer bene taught in the Church , say , that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith , & that it is no religion , but a temptation . And therefore , if we wil be saued , we ought to liue and die in that faith , that hath continued by succession of Pastours , euen from Christs time vnto these daies . S. Irenaeus a very famous writer , Lib. 4. contr. haer. cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies , the 65. Chapter , who was within a few yeares of the Apostles , Archbishop of Lions , writeth the very like , c c Proue your religion now to bee the same , that was in Irenaeus time , and then you say something , & his testimony make for you , otherwise not ; and this is impossible . saying that the true faith & the true knowledge of God , is the doctrine of the Apostles , & the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world , according to the succession of those Bishops , vnto whom only the Apostles committed the custody of the Church throughout the world ; the which ( saith he ) is come to vs . This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke , and second Chapter , that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes , which were great heretiques , by the traditions of the Apostles , d d A cursed glosse , for it corrupteth the text ; for the tradition that he speaketh of , had good warrant in the writen word . that is to say , the doctrine not writen , but receaued from age to age of the Apostles , and so continued till their time . He saith likewise : vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles , and that by succession of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church , we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions . Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke : Forasmuch ( saith he ) as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches , and to tel them one by one , we do●●●●● throw those , that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither , touching them contrary to that , that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles , the which we doe shew to them by the saied Traditions , and by the faith that hath beene taught , and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome , the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles , Saint Peter & Saint Paul . These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses , a a The third you should say . the fifth Chapter . And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus : All these that will vnderstand the trueth , may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles , which are manifest throughout the world , and wee cannot count the number of those , that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church , and their Successours till our daies , which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales , that these doe preach vnto vs . b b If you say so , you say it without cause , and vntruely . Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans , Caluinistes , & other sects of our time . After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome , c c If the Popes euer since had beene like these , you and wee should not haue needed to striue , as we doe . from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius , which was Pope in his time . And he did affirme , that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false & very hurtfull , because that it was vnknown , or at the least , not receiued or approued by the Church , being vnder the gouernance of any of th●se Popes . Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d d True , but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee . a new doctrine , which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares , or at the least , if any body sought to publish it , he was condemned , as a false per●itious hereticke .

The V. Chapter .

YOu must remember , that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago ( by your own confession ) & that therfore he speaketh of their time , and of the Catholique Church , and ancient faith , that then was . Whereof ( if you vnderstand him ) we say as he saied , and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ , that he speaketh of , then you ; but then his saying maketh directly against you . For neither your Church , nor faith was in his dayes . We graunt you also , that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons , to stop the mouthes of the heretiques , as you shew in this Chapter out of him : but withal then you must not forget , that he liued not long after the Apostles times , when as yet they , whose Succession he alleadged , continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine , from which long ago your Roman Church , as it is now , hath fallen by antichristian apostacy . For that hee calleth the principall succession : and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed , who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes , haue receiued the gift of trueth , as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter , in my answere to your first Chapter . But Irenaeus no where prescribeth , that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession , for a perpetuall rule to followe ; neither therein doeth he prophecy , that for 1000 yeares after , & further , those successiue lines of Bishops , or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine , as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto . For he was not ignorant , what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist , 2 , Thess. 2. and Reuel. 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus ( Act. 20. ) that after his departure , there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock : which must needs import , that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops , that continued in the trueth ; that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy , that so it would be alwaies . You reason therefore in this point as one ; that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins , should alleadge for proofe thereof , that they were so when they were yong children . For euen like difference and ods there is , betwixt the Church of Rome now , and her bishops and pastours , and that that was in the daies & times , that you and the authours , that you alleage , speake of . For whereas vnto these times , the Church of Rome & her bishops & pastours , stoode and continued in the trueth ; since , not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues , whom you hold are freest & furthest of , of al other from erring ( as I haue shewed already most plainly ) fell into heresie , but also al your Romish doctrine , which we now count & cal papistical , was diuised & found out since those times , and is also not only beside , but contrary to the doctrine then taught & receiued , by the ancient Church of Rome & her pastours ; as , ere I haue done with you , I hope ( at least in great part ) sufficiently to proue . It should seeme therfore , that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe , or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles ; in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ ( when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled , in comparison of the tymes that followed ) could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth : therefore you may , that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more . You must first proue , that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession , & that euer since , and now also , the Bishops & pastours , whose personall succession you bragge of , haue continued in the trueth as well , as they did , whose names he reciteth . Whereof neither , shall either you or any of you be able to proue , as long as the world standeth . Fye therefore for shame , that you neuer hauing proued either of these , nor yet being able to doe it , you should conclude , that your prescription against our doctrine ( which you call newe , at your pleasure though indeede it be most ancient ; witnesse the olde testament and the newe ) much rather ought to take place , then his in his time against heretiques , that then taught diuerse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures . You say , our Religion hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares : or at least , if any body sought to publish it , he was condemned as a false pernitious heretique . But you doe but say thus , you proue it not , nor euer shall . For it was both heard and knowen , many 100. yeares before yours was hatched : and if euery one were so condemned that taught it , then was Christ and his Apostles so condemned . For vnlesse by scriptures we can proue ours to be , the same that theirs was , wee aske no fauour at your hands . And as long as we can doe so , the more we and our predecessours haue beene condemned by you , the more we knowe , we haue beene blessed of God . Now whereas you say in this Chapter further , that Irenaeus did withstand heretiques , by the traditions of the Apostles , adding your glosse , that is to say , by doctrine not writen , but deliuered from hand to hand , and so receiued from age to age , from the Apostles to that time : therein through the ambiguity of the word ( Tradition ) craftsly you seeke to deceiue your simple reader , and indeede you giue a glosse , that corrupteeh the text . For let that place of Irenaeus in his third booke and second Chapter be perused , and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same booke ( though either you or the Printer mistaking it , send vs to the fifth Chapter , where the wordes are not , which you cite ) and most euidently it shall bee proued , that though Irenaeus haue there the words by you cited , yet by the traditions of the Apostles , which he speaketh of there , he meaneth no doctrine , nor points of doctrine ( as you doe vsually by that word ) contrary , or besides that , which was also taught in the word writen . For the question was of God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ , which Valentinian & Marcion denied : against whom he there sheweth , that he fought first with the scriptures : wherewith when they were vrged , he saith , they are turned streight into an accusation of the scriptures , as though they were not right , had not authority , might diuersly be taken ; saying further , that trueth could not be found of them , by those that are ignorant of tradition . For the trueth was not deliuered by them , but by liuely voice : & that therefore Paul saied , we speake wisedome amongst them that are perfect , not the wisedome of this world . And this wisdome to euery one of them ( saieth he ) is that which he himselfe hath deuised . Of which heretiques ( their wordes & yours , when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures , are so like ) vndoubtedly you haue learned to plead against the scriptures , for your vnwritten traditions . Now when thus he had shewed , how the heretiques in his time , shunned triall by the scriptures , and appealed to tradition , he goeth on and sheweth , that when he was contented to come to the tradition of the Apostles , kept & obserued in the church , downe from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastours , then they resisted tradition also , saying , that they were wiser , then either those pastours , or the Apostles themselues : and so indeede neither by the scriptures , nor yet by making demonstration vnto them , that the same doctrine taught in the scripture , was also deliuered by liuely voice , first by the Apostles , and so receiued from age to age and continued in by those pastors , of whose succession he speaketh , could stop their mouthes . And thus any man of meane capacity may perceiue , that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is , to shew the heretiques , that the doctrine which he taught , concerning God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ , first was warranted by the Apostles writings , and then also taught by them , by liuely voice , and so deliuered and continued from hand to hand , amongst the faithfull pastours , succeeding one another euen vnto that time . And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles , and not ( as you falsly expound him ) doctrine vnwriten , beside or contrary to that which is writen ( as the Popish traditions you striue for bee ) if you had beene disposed you might haue learned in the 1. Chapter of the same booke , where he saieth , That which first they preached , after by the wil of god , tradiderunt nobis , they deliuered vs in writing , to be the foundation and piller of our faith . And indeede it is an vsuall thing , with the fathers of the primitiue Church , often by the tradition of the Apostles , to vnderstand the very same doctrine , which is conteined in their writings . Herein therefore , & so likewise in all other points in controuersy betwixt vs , it is a common tricke with you papists , to vrge the fathers wordes quite contrary to their true meaning .

But because you first , and namely bring in Irenaeus for your vnwriten traditions , which is the window indeede , that you would haue faine left open vnto you , for then thereby , you hope you may thrust in and vpon the Church , what you list : and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine , when all other shifts faile : let vs see , whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him . He ( as Eusebius reporteth Hist. Eccles. lib. 4. cap. 14. ) saied , that Polycarpe taught , that one and sole trueth , which he had learned of the Apostles , quae & Ecclesia tradit , which the Church deliuereth forth . Where of necessity , by those things which the Church deliuereth by tradition ( that he there speaketh of ) you may not vnderstand any other , but those which haue warrant from the word writen , and in no case those things that are besides that or contrary thereunto : for then , hee would not haue called that which Polycarpe preached , the one and sole trueth : for questionles those things are true , that are conteined in the scriptures . And this clearely appeareth , if you marke the wordes as they are in Irenaeus himselfe , in his 5. booke & 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation vnto ; which are these , Polycarpe did mention , or teach those thinges , which he had heard of the Apostles , that is , all things agreeable to the scriptures . Againe the same Irenaeus in his 3. booke and 3. cap. ( which is one of the Chapters by you before alleadged ) saieth , that vnder Clement , the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians , shewing them , quam traditionem , what tradition of late they had receiued of the Apostles , that is to say , that God the father almighty , and so forth ( as is expressed in Moyses ) is the father of our Lord Iesus Christ . And that he is so taught to bee , of the Churches ( saieth hee ) they that will learne , may by the Scriptures , and so they may vnderstand the Apostolique tradition of the Church . Where it is most cleare , that he telleth vs himselfe , that by the Apostolique tradition , he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father , which before they wrote , the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice , & afterward , as it appeareth , they set down in writing . Is this then honest dealing in you , to make your Reader beleeue , that he meant of vnwriten doctrine ( such as the is , for which you & we striue ) seeing he telleth you himselfe , that by the Apostolique tradition of the church , you are to vnderstand this doctrine of God the father , most plainely & plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures ? You might haue learned of S. Paul ( 2. Thes. 2.15 . ) that the word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , tradition , may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture , as that which is deliuered by word of mouth : where the Apostle ( as then very litle of the new testament being writen , and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed ) saith , Hold fast brethren , the documents deliuered you , whither by word , or by our Epistle . But you are the lesse to be blamed & the more to be borne withall , for this your wilful thus abusing your reader , because the making or marring of your church and Religion , standeth vpon vnwriten verities ( or rather forgeries ) which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions . For there are few or none of those points of Religion , wherein we differ from you , and striue with you about ; but your owne great champions haue confessed , haue their ground from hence , and not from the scriptures . As any man , that will take the paines to reade them , may see , in Peter Soto against Brentius , in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme , & in the 5. booke & 100. c. of Lindans panoply , where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them & vs in Religion , and when they haue done , plainely confesse the ground thereof to be but tradition . And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church & Religion , at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cannot examine your quotations , it is not your fault here alone , but the common fault of you all , where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition , though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing , beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen , to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwriten traditions . To preuent you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple , I would wish them & all others to mark , how flatly against your vnwriten & vnwarāted traditions by the writen word , the fathers with one consent haue writen , for the absolute sufficiency of the scriptures . Besides that , which you heard out of Irenaeus & Tertullian , to this purpose , Irenaeus saieth further , in his fifth book , we must run to the Church , & be brought vp in her boson , & nourished with the scriptures of god . And Tert : against Hermog. writeth , Let Hermogenes shew , that it is writen : if it be not writen , let him fear that wo , that is threatned or appointed to the adders , or takers awaie . As for Origen , we haue heard him tel vs before , that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures , haue no credit in his . 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth , The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth , against Idol : Hillarie saieth , it is wel , that we are content with those things that are writen , in his third booke of the Trinity . Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede , that all things that Christ did are not writen , but hee saieth , those things are writen , which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine . Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie . Homil. 9. saieth , If there be anie thing needefull , either to learne or to bee ignorant of , we shall learne it in the Scriptures : and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome , wee read these golden words , They that be in Christianity , let them flee to the Scriptures , because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity , but by the Scriptures . To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes. Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth , that it is a most euident argument of infidelity , and a most certaine signe of pride , if any man , either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen ; or bring any thing not writen , seeing the Lord saieth , My sheepe heare my voice , and they follow not the voice of a stranger : in his treatise of true and godly faith . Where also he noteth , that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men , most vehemently forbiddeth , that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God , or ( which God forbid , saith he ) be added thereunto . And therefore he in Moral : Reg. 26. saieth further , Whatsoeuer we say or doe , it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures . Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth , that seeing faith commeth by hearing , and hearing by the word of God , without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture , seeing it is not of faith , must needes be sinne : and therefore he addeth in that rule , let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures , and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto , let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides . Hierome vpon Agge . cap. 1. saieth , those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise , as though they came by Apostolique tradition , without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture , the sword of God striketh : who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth , that which hath not authority from the scriptures , as easily is despised , as approued . And contra Heluidium he saieth , we beleeue it , because we reade it : and we beleeue it not , because we reade it not . August : against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke , writeth , That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained , whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles : by which bookes we iudge of all other writings , both of the faithfull , and of the Infidels : out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose , especially , that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap : Damascen is as plaine as any of these , in his 1 booke of right faith , cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt &c. All thinges ( saieth hee ) which are deliuered vs by the Prophets , Apostles , and Euangelists , we embrace , wee acknowledge & reuerence , beyond those , seeking no further . For all things concerning faith and maners , he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures ; de doct. Christ : lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited , out of the ancient fathers ( for they are full of them ) whereby it sufficiently appeareth , that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them , of the sufficiency of the scriptures . If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consent ( as often times you will pretend ) you would yeelde vnto them in this point , and so spare much labour , that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten . Which if you would once be brought vnto , we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures , haue a faire hand of you . Which you espying ( whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers , to bleare the eies of the simple ) in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues , for you like it not . So that this , and such your like dealing with them , caused one once to tell you , that the fathers are vnto you , as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account , according to whose will and pleasure , sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob : that stoode immediately before for a pound or more . So with you , when it pleaseth you , an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight , and when it pleaseth you againe , 20. of their testimonies are nothing . Howbeit , I hope , the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth & will perceiue , that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people , when yet you would perswade them at anie time , that the ancient fathers are fauourers , and patrons of your vnwriten traditions . And I trust , this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare , that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers , your Andradius may be ashamed , to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini concilii . That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen : and that your Lyndan was extreame mad , or very drunke , when he wrote , It is most extreame madnes to thinke , that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine , is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke , & out of the litle booke of the new testament . Panopl : lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions , sometime equall & sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture , & that vpon this ground , that al trueth is not sufficiently taught therein , you haue learned of the Encratites , Manichees , and of the Montanists , Valentinians , and others , as it appeares in them , that wrote against them .

And yet ( O good God ) what a stir now of late this Andradius , Lyndan & other such your great champions haue made , & what cost they haue bestowed , to drawe men from that estimation , that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures , in making large treatises and discourses to shew , that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient , no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church , either for Religion or conuersation ; and that they are obscure & hard to be vnderstoode , & all vpon this occasion , that will they , nil they , they are driuen to perceaue , that their opinions wherein we differ from them , cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures , for al their sophistrie & cunning ; and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of them by the authority of the church & her vnwriten traditions , which they may say to be what they lift , or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers , and to run out of the field . But you doe fouly deceiue your selues , if you thinke in this great light , that men espy not , that this is a shamefull shift , and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost , that you can hold out no longer , vnles it be , by preferring the authority of the church the wife , before Christ the husband ; & by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word , & to adde there unto , and take therefrom ; how & what seemeth good vnto her . And your fault herein is the more intollerable , because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is . For euen children , may see , that you are very farre driuen , when there is no other remedy , but you must thus open your mouthes , and prepare your pens , to disgrace his writen word ( which all men know to be his word indeed without question ) for the gracing & countenancing in this sort of that , which though you call his worde , you are neuer able to proue to be so . And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you , as Tertull : Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time . Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas , nisi homini Deus placuerit , Deus non erit ; homo iam Deo propitius esse debebit , that is , with you the godhead is esteemed of , as man shall thinke good ; vnles God please man , he shall not be God , man now must be good to God . Howsoeuer you are ashamed , thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake , yet it is euident in that you still say & write , that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church , & hath the canonical credit from thence , & that the sence thereof is & must be , whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define & determine so to be , relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions , & bearing men in hand , that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures , as you doe , al men whom your enchantments haue not bewitched & made blind , may see , that in effect you are as grosse , as they of whom these words were truely writen . This once we knowe to be his word , which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures , & we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit , for the information of the Church . And we cannot be ignorant ; but that this Spirit of God foresawe , what dangerous heretiques there would bee , which ( if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing ) vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions , would bring in damnable heresies . And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs , that he in these writings , began to leaue instruction vnto vs , to settle vs in the certaine trueth , & we know he could go thorow with it , because he is God & the fountain & authour of all wisedome & trueth ; & are sure that he was willing , because he perfectly loued the church , & by Christs promise , by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth : we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy , to think , that the writen word of God is any way vnsufficient for the full direction of the Church in all matters . And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours , in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church , thinke not to the contrarie , but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your v●●●tie and impiety therein , by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe ; The spirit of God , in the writers of the Scriptures , sawe it good and necessary , to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters , writen : by that is done and writen , it is cleare hee tooke it in hand ; and to take it in hand , and not to perfect it , is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone , to trie all doctrines by , and argueth that it was either because hee could not , or would not perfect it : whereof the one , robbeth him of his almighty power , and infinite knowledge ; the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the church● therefore most certainely in the writen worde , there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church : and consequently those vnwriten traditions , that some striue for , are superfluous . Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter .

The VI. Chapter .

SAint Augustine in his Epistle . a a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all . 365. about the like matter , doth set forth all the Popes by order , which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius , which was Pope in his time , and by his continuall succession he doeth proue , b b By the same argument we disproue popery , because none of them that hee reckons vp there , was of the Romish religion that now is . that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical , because that none of those Popes which hee did recite , nor no part of the Church did receiue it . I praie you , may not wee saie the like by the c c No , not by them truely , whom you call Caluinistes . Caluinists and other heretiques . The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d d It seemes you are a learned man For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called , he calleth not his so . The Epithet Roman you adde , & the words al and continual , for he speaketh but of succession to his time , and yet there he saieth , that o●●●e trueth is to be preferred before all these . he doeth call Epistola fundamenti . cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church . And among other , he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations , & the continuall succession of Bishops . e e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence , for of th●● argument Augustine wrote two bookes , and in euery booke many chapters there be , but this is common with you , the more to trouble your reader , to send him to whole bookes , and beside , sometimes to set downe your quotations , as though the authour had wrote but one , when he wrote mo of that argument , or as though he had wrote moe , when he had writen but one . And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe , he doeth name the succession of the Bishops , as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * * Ephes. 1. Paul : f f You write Ephes. 1. for Ephes. 4. I mean , that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine , but that we should be firme and stable , the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures , according to the traditions of the Church , and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops . f f It continued so to Augustines time , that is , three or foure hundreth yeares so , ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue , the argument followeth not . The Church ( saieth S. Augustine ) from the Apostles time , hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops , vntill our daies .

The VI. Chapter .

IN this 6. Chapter , you cite three places though some of them wrong quoted out of Augustine , whereby indeed it appeareth , that as Irenaeus did obiect succession , euen so did he , to confute the heretiques of his time : that taught things contrary to the scriptures ; but as I haue saied vnto you , concerning Irenaeus , so doe I concerning him . You must remember , that Augustine liued & wrote within 400. yeares after Christ : vnto whose time the Bishops & pastours whose succession he produceth , had continued at least , sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion : from which you & your predecessours fell away long ago , & therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe , you cannot doe without perill , & to an ill ende . Againe you must be told , that as Irenaeus was not , so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet , to shew that to the worldes ende , it would be safe thus to doe . And lastly , I would haue both you and your reader to remember , that it is not bare personal succession , that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of , but that when it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine , as it was in his time with them , of whose succession he speaketh , and is not now with you , and them , of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered , whatsoeuer things further by you , or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of Tertullian , Cyprian , or Epiphanius ( which you might haue as well alleadged , as Irenaeus or Augustine ) be answered . For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ , when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes , in comparison that yours doeth : and they all spoke of succession of persons , succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth , and they spake but for their owne times : they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies . And yet thus it is your fashion , to beguile the simple , that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome , that then was the Catholicke church , or Catholicke faith , that you would beare them in hand , is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now , when as yours compared with those times , hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then , in a great number of weighty points . But for the better satisfying of the reader , indeede S. August : ( what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you , or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession , or of any such outward thing in the church ) made more account of sole trueth , taught only by the canonical Scriptures ; then of all other things besides . For euen in in his 165. epistle , which is the epistle ( as it should seeme ) which you meant , though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred & one then there are in all : after , he saieth , we presume not so much of these , as of the scriptures . And in the second place , by you here cited out of him ( which ignorantly you say he calleth Epistola fundamenti , wheras he calleth none of his epistles so , but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called , one book ) in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof , after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church , and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein , though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe , he addeth by & by , but with you ( speaking to the Manichees ) sola personat veritatis pollicitatio &c. onely promise of trueth rings ; which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side , so manifest , that it cannot be called into doubt , praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus , quibus in Catholicâ teneor , that is , is to bee preferred before all those thinges , whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church . The third place likewise , which you alleadge here out of Augustine ( as you haue quoted it ) serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence . For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets , but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him , writen , as you say , against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe : and if you meant the former , there being two bookes of that title , and euery one consisting of many Chapters , why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one , and name not the Chapter : when you tell vs where to finde the place , you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto . In the meane time , you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places , that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures , is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church : contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane , nor any where else . You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe , if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures , that you & your Church were stable in this trueth : especially seeing trueth it selfe , euen here hath enforced you to confesse , that that stablenes is atteined vnto , by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures . But you adde , that these scriptures then must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church , and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops . If by the church you did vnderstande ( as you should ) the true and pure church of Christ , and by her traditions and Bishops , such as were sound , that is , such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures , as the ancient fathers , Irenaeus , Tertullian & Augustine , with others of those , and former times were woont to vnderstand them , as I haue shewed before , when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to them ; then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue , by the scriptures so vnderstoode , to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth . But understanding therby , as you doe , your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares , & her traditions & Bishops : we say and sure we are , we are able to proue it , that so far of is it , that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to them , that there is no readier way to misunderstand them , and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence , now one way now another , then to make them ( they being so contrary as they be to the ancient & sound traditions of Christs church , which alwaies were consonant ( if not the very same ) to that is taught in the word writen ; & the Bishops you meane , being likewise so different from them , that were in the primatiue church , and often also so varying amongst themselues , as they are in the interpreting of them ) to be the rules of right vnderstanding of them . Finally if you had any forhead or conscience , you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do , in going about to make him beleeue : that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it , from the Apostles times , through the succession of Bishops , to his : that therefore hee saied it had so to ours , there being aboue 1000. yeares difference .

The VII . Chapter .

YOV doe studie as much as you can , to reiecte our succession , and not without cause , a a Succession of persons , without succession also in trueth , neuer was esteemed . knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers . Caluin , as the most apparent , doeth seeke to proue , that our reason is of no force , because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours , and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes . But if the Reader doe well note that , that wee haue alreadie saied , hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection , I meane , because that the Greekes haue not had succession a a Holde you to this , & you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame . and continuance of doctrine , called vnitie of faith by the Apostles , the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours , to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion . There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters , but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes , as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost : the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence , and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe ; besides diuerse other light things , to speake moderately , b b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too , gainesai●d by your forefathers . which are not approued by their ancie●t fathers , S. Iohn Chrysostome , S. Ciril , S , Basil , & Athanatius , nor yet by our aduersaries at this present time . The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke : for my intent is but to speake of that , that pricks vs at hand , because of ill neighbourhood . Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c c We neuer alleage this alone , but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours . negligence of our pastours , and their ill liues , for the which cause they saie , that the mentioned succession cannot take place . But this argument is of no force : For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons , haue beene so great & so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ ( I meane , to the soules bought with it ) yet notwithstanding that , d d Yet thus for the principall point , you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests . the church hath not lost the succession & continuance of one doctrine , as touching the administration of the sacramentes , by those that were deputed by the Bishops . e e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church , by your Cardinals and great prelats . If one should see a Prelate doing nothing , and his lieutenant doing all , which of those two would you take to bee Bishop ? they haue both deuided their charges : the one receiueth the profit , the other taketh all the paine . If they be both content , what losse do you feele ? he that hath anie interest , let him valewe the damadge . And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f f And yet nothing more common with you , then wilful continuance , yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin . before God with the diligence of the deputie , nor his conscience cleare , yet this ought to suffice , that though his faults be through negligence , or through euill liuing , g g True : but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours . yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine , the which we haue taught vs by the word of God , interpreted by the true doctours , that haue beene before vs , agreeing in vnitie of faith , as I haue already said : For neither the naughtines of h h There is no such there mentioned , this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas , Num. 1. nor of Ioram , nor of diuerse other great sinners , which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ , were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham , that is to saie , that he would be borne of this line : Euen so , the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes , that haue followed after Saint Peter , haue neuer beene a a This is true , and yet you neuer the nearer . For though al Papists faile in faith , yet his church neuer faileth . able to moue Christ to breake his promise , that is to saie , that the faith of his Church should neuer faile , Math. 16. and that the gates of hell ( that is to saie ) of infidelity , which are the portes of damnation , should neuer preuaile against it . b b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein , serueth to this purpose , any whit at all . Esay . 58. Our aduersaries therefore , that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes , that haue beene since Saint Peters time , thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith , c c Your comparison is odiou● : neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues , to that ende you speake of , but to shew that your glory is your shame . doe no lesse offend God , then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine , because of the evill liues of their successours . Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now , that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter , wee doe confesse it . But they cannot deny , or they will confesse vnto vs , that the aboue named euil Kings , Achaz , Ioram , Manasses , Amon , Iechonias , and others did leade no such holy liues , as Abraham , Isaac , Iacob , or Dauid : & yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour , as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ . Let them iudge then that haue any witte , whether this bee a great folly or no , to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse , to be the Popes spirituall children , because they were sinners , seeking thereby , to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church .

The VII . Chapter .

WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion , or any part of it ( though you here confidently say it is , and suppose that to be the cause , why we reiect it ) I refer to the iudgement of the reader , by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you , and confuted by me concerning the same . Whereby also , I doubt not , but euery indifferent reader may perceiue , that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it , and not this at all . Whereas you call our Religion here heresie , that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus , Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there , a captaine of the Sect , or heresie of the Nazarites , and the high Priest and elders saied , it was euen so : yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ , which they so tearmed , but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces , that according to that way which they counted heresie , he worshipped the God of his fathers , beleeuing all that was writen in the law & the Prophets : so , though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames , and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new , and an heresie , and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing , we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion , as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul ( which our consciences witnesse , comfortably we may ) that therein we doe but beleeue , that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures . Indeede not Caluin only , but euery one of vs , when we haue to doe with you , in this question of your succession , we tell you your reason drawen from your succession , is of no force , seeing the Greekes ( whom you account heretiques ) may vse that argument , as well as you . But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession , you say , They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine , the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuance of pastors , to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion . We are glad to see & heare , that euidence & force of trueth hath wrong from you this kinde of honest & true replie to our obiection : yet we thanke you not for it at all . For ful gladly ( if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce ) would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops & pastours , without any mention of this . Well , howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much , thereupon it doeth most euidently followe , that if there be as little continuance & lesse too in the Apostolicke faith , and doctrine in your succession , as there is amongst the Greekes ; then by your owne confession , your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion , as theirs . And therefore the case thus standing , you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession , and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine : for the other without this , you see is nothing . What a preposterous course is this then , that you , haue taken , to take such leasure to bestow pains on that , which when you haue gotten is nothing , & to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this , which if you could haue proued , your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer ? Enter yet into this controuersie , when you will , & I dare vndertake , if you will be tried in this case , by the canonicall scriptures ( which as I haue shewed , you must of necessity ) it shall easily be proued , that ( notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes ) your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies , and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique , Apostolique faith , then theirs . The greatest thing you charge them withall is , their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father & the Sonne : which indeede , if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you , doubtles therin they were heretiques . But it should seeme , that they refuse only that word , as not vnderstood of them , & added ( as they say ) without the consent of the whole church to the creede , of feare onely , least by admitting the word , they should thereby be enforced to confesse , that he came not of one beginning , but of two beginnings : in the meane time vsing other words , expressing in effect the same thing . And if it be thus ( as in the last session of the Florentine councell it should seeme to be , & els where ) them in that respect , their cause is not so ill , as you would make it . But be it ( though you only say both , & proue neither of them against them ) that they held it in the worst sence now stil , & that also ( as you say ) in certaine other smaller things , they hold otherwise , then was held by Chrysostom , Cyrill , Basil , & Athanasius : yet I say , & will stand vnto it , that as dangerous heresies , & mo in number be held of your own company , against the truth of Christs person & office , them they hold in all : & in far more & greater points of weight , are you gone from the ancient fathers , that haue beene in the latin church , within the first 600. yeares , them they haue done from theirs . And therefore in the meane time , whiles you will ioyne this issue with vs , & vntil you haue disproued this my assertion , by the same reason you reiect their succession , will we perseuere in reiecting yours .

Now whereas you secondly imagine , that we labour to weaken & ouerthrow the force of your argument taken from succession , by lai●ng out the lewde liues & negligence in doing of their duties in many of those pastours & Bishops , of whose succession you boast : true it is , that prouoked by your too too great brags of your personall succession , & by your immoderate railing against some of our pastours and ministers , whom yet you cannot staine , but with false and maliciously deuised tales , sometimes some of vs haue beene occasioned , to cast your owne dunge into your faces . And we being able , as wee are , euen out of your owne stories , so iustly to lay such a number of most notorious thinges to the charge of verie many of your greatest Prelates , and the matter being notorious , that fewe or none of your Popes and Archprelates euer take it vpon them , by preaching to feede Gods people ( which is the principall duety of a Bishop ) we thinke still , that that which we say and obiect against you in this behalfe , may iustly cause you to be ashamed of such fathers , & so to cease both your bragge of succeeding them , & your railing against vs . To disproue the force of this our allegation , you dispute the matter , as though we went about to proue that the succession of trueth hath ceased in the Church , because we thus obiect against the persons of many of your predecessours : whereas we most constantly holde & beleeue , that it hath alwaies continued , and that ( though you grow ten times worse , then any that hath beene before you ) it shall stil , vnto the worldes ende . But withall we tell you , it hath beene continued by others , and not by those wicked and negligent pastours and predecessours of yours , that we speake against . For as their liues were deuilish , so was their doctrine Antichristian , as yours their childrens is . Too too foolish therefore is it that you write , that wee doe no lesse offende God in laying forth the liues of sundry of your Popes , thinking thereby to ouerthrow the succession of the catholique Ecclesiasticall faith ; then if one should go about to ouerthrow the promise of Christ to the Patriarches , because of the bad liues of diuerse of their successours . For we holde , that the Succession of the Catholique faith , hath continued , and will to verify that promise of Christ . Matthew . 16. though neuer so many of your popes go to the deuil . Neither did we euer in laying forth their most filthy liues , thinke thereby to ouerthrow the Succession of faith : for we neuer tooke them to haue any society or coniunction with it , since they became such . But you still ( according to your old woont ) taking it for giuen , which shal neuer be offred you , that their personall succession , and the catholique trueth went alwaies togither , which we doe most earnestly deny , imagined that wee could not speake against the one , but that therein also , we sought to ouerthrow the other : when as we are perswaded , that of al other persons vnder heauen , your Popes for this long time haue beene Sathans most forcible meanes , to ouerthrow both the Apostolique trueth , and Catholique Church . Wherefore you see , you might wel haue spared your paynes in the greatest part of this Chapter : and so let any , that hath witte , iudge , whither it be not great folly for any man to be so simple , as to seeke to be the childe of such fathers , as neither had honestie , nor any soundnesse of religion , as many of your Popes , for any thing that you haue yet saied to the contrary , haue beene , whose children yet ( how bad soeuer ) you would haue men to be .

The VIII . Chapter .

VPon Moises Chaire there sitteth ( sayeth our Sauiour Christ ) who ? not the godliest men of the world , but the Scribes & Pharises : doe that they saie , but not that that they doe . But if our new Gospellers had beene in those daies , they would haue tolde Christ , that his commandement was not to be obserued , because the liues of Anna and Caiphas were not correspondent vnto those of Moises & Aaron : for the first came to the vocation of priesthood , being called of God : but the last attained to it by the vocation of their a a As many of yours doe , or by worse means , or else your owne frends bely them . purses , and yet notwithstanding , rather then our Sauiour would breake this harmonie of the misticall bodie of the Church , he was not onely content to permit , that Caiphas should execute his office ( although hee was vnworthy , as one that came to it by Simonie ) but rather he did confirme his pontificat with the gift of the Spirit of Prophesying , with the which he was b b That is grosse blasphemy . as fullie inspired , as euer was Dauid , Esay , or any of the rest ; and all to teach vs that , that I haue alreadie saied : I meane , that the Ecclesiastical order , & the administration of the Sacraments , doe not consist in the good or euill liues of the pastours , but onelie of God and of his word , interpreted by them . As touching that that appertaineth to our health , God hath no regard to the life of the magistrate temporal or ecclesiasticall : for he can aswell serue him with an euill person , to doe good to the common wealth , as of a good ; as the godlie prophesies of the wicked Balaam doe well witnesse . Num. 24. And here is to be noted , that when we talke of the succession of Bishops , and of the doctrine continuing in the Church , we doe not meane onely to talke of the c c Indeede you doe wisely to call for helpe of others , for otherwise the necke of your succession hath often bene shamefully broken . Popes , but of all the Bishops and other hauing Ecclesiastical charges , not onelie at Rome , but thorow al other places , where the true preaching , and right administration of the Sacraments be vsed . And therefore you doe pretend in vaine , to proue , that the aboue mentioned succession hath beene interrupted by the discention of Popes & Antipopes , and by the Ciuil warres that haue bene at Rome in times past . For although that the Sea of Rome was vacant for a time , the Chaires of Bishops in France , Spaine , England , and ouer all Christendome were not vacant , they did not for their debates let to administer the precious body of Iesus , and the rest of the Sacramentes , to preach and teach the people , doing manie other godly deedes . d d This is notoriously false , as the stories witnes at sundry times , when there were two or three Popes together , each hauing his faction , and one banning the other . And to be briefe , the Ciuill dissention at Rome did not cause the rest of the people throughout Christendome to breake the vnitie of their faith , which they held before their discordes . The ambition of the Popes of Rome was in nothing preiudiciall vnto those that helde the integritie of their faith , nor through the reason of their ill gouernance , our Sauiour Christ did not lose his rightful inheritance .

The VIII . Chapter .

THat which is further alleadged in this Chapter to proue , that Scribes and Pharisies must be heard and obeyed , sitting in Moises chaire , notwithstanding their ill liues , doeth nothing at all serue to proue , that your lewd Popes were to be heard and obeyed . For to sit in Moises chaire , is not ( as you imagine ) to succeed him in place or office , but in teaching the trueth , as he did ; and so your wicked Popes , that we speake against , neuer sate in Moises chaire , nor in the Chaire of any Apostle , or Apostolique man : but in the Chaire & seate ( in respect of their doctrine ) of the whore of Babylon . But by that you afterwards remember of Caiphas & Balaams prophecies , it should seeme you were of opinion , that to preach and to holde the trueth , is inseperable from your Popes Chaire and office : and that therefore it may not be imagined , but that , how lewd soeuer they were , they could not but prophecy , & teach the trueth , because these in the places by you mentioned ( notwithstanding they were lewde men ) did . Indeed very fitly might your Popes these many yeares be compared vnto these two , they resemble the one so fitly , in crucifying Christ againe in his members : and the other , in seeking to curse the people of God for filthy lucre . But that vpon these particuler facts of theirs it should follow ( as therupon you would seeme to infer ) that least the Harmony of the misticall body of Christ should be broken , God alwaies hath guided the mouthes of your Popes so , that they could not erre in iudgement , I see no reason at al. For out of particuler facts rare & vncertaine , you conclude a general and constant rule . Doeth it folow , thinke you , Pilates wife learned by her dreame , that Christ was innocent : therfore womens dreams are alwaies true ? Daniel a young childe found out the vnrighteous iudgement of the iudges : therefore young children alwaies shall be able to doe the like ? Or to come to your own examples , doth it follow , that because Caiphas , & Balaam , prophecied right , therfore neither they themselues at other times could erre , nor any of that office ? The Scripture testifieth the contrary . For the same Caiphas iudicially pronounced our sauiour to be a blasphemer , Mat. 26. & Paul . Act. 23. chargeth Ananias , sitting there iudicially as hie priest ( as he had iust cause ) to giue iudgment contrary to the law , in commanding him to be smitten . And howsoeuer Balaam the false prophet , prophecied there wel , it is euident by the text , that it was sore against his will , and that it came to passe by Gods especial power , in guiding & bridling his tongue . And yet it appeareth after , that the same Balaam by his wicked counsaile was cause of that trespasse concerning Peor . Numb. 31. and you may read . 1. King . 22. that 400. false prophets prophecied vntruly to Ahab . I doubt not but God , when it pleaseth him , can cause your Popes , as he caused these ( how wicked soeuer ) to speake the trueth . For Iudas , after he had betrayed his master , yet before he hanged himselfe , iustified his master : and the Deuils themselues oftentimes in the Gospel acknowledge Christ aright to be the son of God : but thereupon it followeth not , because he can doe it , that therefore he wil do it , & alwaies hath : nay rather that which is prophesied 2. Thess. 2. is verified in your Popes , because they receiued not the loue of the trueth , therefore God sent them strong delusions , that they should beleeue lies : for according to this faith , they haue spoken .

O what horrible & intollerable blasphemy did your hart conceiue , & your pen ( to your perpetual infamy ) vtter , when vpon occasion of Caiphas prophecy , vttered by him , either not woting what he saied , or rather ( as Cyril in his 8. booke vpon Iohn , Chap. 3. noteth ) hauing a malitious purpose thereby to persuade the Iews , that it was expedient to put Christ to death , least the whole nation should bee destroied by the Romans : you doe set downe these words , that Christ did confirme his pontificate with the gifte of prophecy , with the which hee was as fully inspired , as Dauid , Esay , or any of the rest ? O what iniury in these wordes haue you done to those holy prophets , and to the Spirit of God in them , as thus to match them with this cursed hell-hounde ? Wee must holde , that they were indued with the Spirit in such measure , as that in their writings and sayings wee must be sure , they did not erre , or els the ground of our faith ( which is their writinges ) is shaken : whereas this wretch euen the same yeare ( as I haue shewed you ) pronounced Christ to bee a blasphemer : and therefore most deuilishly erred . And indeede hee was wholy destitute of the Spirit of God , not onely then , but euen in this also : for ( as I noted before out of Cyrill ) he , in vttering of those words , had a deuilish meaning and intent , though God by his secret power so ordered his speech , as that his wordes might also cary this sence , that it was expedient that Christ should die for the saluation of man , as there also the same Cyrill obserueth . And therefore for this he is no more to be saied , to haue had the Spirit of trueth to direct him , then you may say , the deuils and Iudas had , that I spoke of before . Why then doeth S. Iohn vpon these wordes of his giue this note , that he was high Priest that yeare ? because it pleased God so to temper his wordes ( vnware to him ) that whereas he spake to hasten the death of our sauiour , his word sounded , that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ : which was most true , but not his meaning . By this monstrous comparison of yours , we may learne , that it is no marueile that you that durst make this beastly comparison , dare compare your pastours and Bishops ( how wicked soeuer both for life , and iudgement in Religion ) which the ancient true pastours of Christs Church . Yet hereby you haue taught vs to trust your lofty and swelling comparisons , the worse as long as we liue . You striue with your owne shadow in labouring to proue , that the effect or fruite of the ministry of the word and sacraments , dependeth not vpon the life of the minister . For it is a thing that we holde , teach , and preach as much as you . You doe therfore but abuse your reader , in going about to make him beleeue that we reiect your Bishops onely for their lewde liues : whereas the thing especially that we condemne both you and them for , is your Antichristian doctrine . It is well , that when you haue saied what you can for your line of Popes , yet the consideration of the oft interruptions of their succession by schismes , and otherwise , you are glad in the ende to giue vs this note , that when you talke of succession of Bishops and pastours , you meane not onely them , but all other Bishops and pastours of your Church , in whom the succession hath beene continued , whensoeuer it was interrupted in the other . For hereby in effect you doe acknowledge , that you meane not , nor thinke it wisedome , to leane too much to the succession of them , least they let your building fall . Wherein I preferre you yet before Stapleton , in that herein the trueth of the manifold interruptions of their succession seemeth to haue preuailed more with you , then with him . For he writing against Doctor Fulke of this matter of succession , though hee saieth hee will not holde succession in the same places , and sees to haue continued generally , yet in this particuler line of Popes onely , hee thinketh that safely he may . You are also to be commended for acknowledging dissentions to haue beene betwixt your Popes , and Antipopes themselues , and in leauing them without defence for their lewd liues , ambition , and negligence , euen to answere for themselues . For indeede as it cannot be denied , but that these thinges most monstrously haue beene found in very many of them , so you could not haue had any honesty in smothing of their faults . Yet you go some thing to far in saying , that their dissentions were not preiudiciall to the vnity of faith , held before . For how could it be , that one part of the world ioyning with the Pope , the rest with his Antipope , or Antipopes ( it being an article now of your Catholique faith , Boniface 8. de maioritate & obed. Cap. 1. vnder paine of damnation to be beleeued , that al soules must submit themselues to your Pope , as to the Supreame head of the Church ) but that these for many yeares togither banning & cursing each others faction , thereby the vnity of faith was not onlie troubled , but maruellously broken .

The IX . Chapter

NOw seeing that we haue yeelded you a full accompt of our vocation to the ministery : if we may be so bold , I thinke it is no great presumption to demande the like of yours . a a Caluin neuer thus reasoned , & therefore you play the papist with him , that is you bely him . For euen as Caluin hath heretofore called vpon vs to haue vs proue , that we are the Children of God , or otherwise , he would absolutelie affirme , that God cannot be called the authour of our vocation to the ministery . We say likewise , that if you doe not shew the like of yours , you shal giue vs leaue ( although it be against your willes ) to saie , that yours commeth not from God , but from the procurement of his aduersarie .

Tertullian , b b Wee know hee spoke against such heretiques as you Papists bee . who , as you know , aboue 1200 yeares agone , speaking against such as you are , in his booke de praescrip. haeret . doeth write these words . Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum , euoluent ordinem Episcoporum suorum , per successiones abinitio decurrentem . Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae cursus suos deferunt , sicut Romanorum Clementem Episcopum à Petro ordinatum : id proinde , vtique & coeteri , exhibeant , quos ab Apostolis in Episcopalibus constitutos , Apostolico semine radices habeant .

c c Here either is ignorance or wilfull corruption of this authours meaning & dris● . You see well , by these wordes , how that Tertullian doeth continue with the succession of the Pastours , the which he doeth affirme to be necessarie , saying : that you , and such as you are , ought not to be receiued to the ministerie of the Church , nor to teach the people , contrary to the ecclesiatical order , except that you shew the antiquitie of your table . And it is necessary ( saieth he ) that you reckon your Pastours and Bishops by order , & how they haue succeeded one after another : for this is the waie , that the Churches doe maintaine their right . The saied Tertullian doth ground his similitude vpon the custome of the Ciuil gouernance . For when that these that are Princes or Lords doe suruaie their lands , the subiects are bound to shew , what landes they holde of them , setting it all forth by accompt , shewing by what tenure they hold their copie , and whether it be demean● or free holde , comming by inheritance or bought : they ought likewise to name him that had it before , and by their owne title to ouerthrowe all other persons , that maie make claime vnto it . a a Not yet , nor euer will you be able . According to this patterne and order we haue giuen you accompt of our inheritance , although we were not bound to it , setting before your eies the similitude of Salomon , by whom our Sauiour Iesus Christ is represented . That same Salomon doeth giue the sheepe that runnes astraie counsaile , to set his Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the Shepheards , & to follow their flocke , vntill he come to the place where Christ was nailed on the Crosse at noon daies . The which counsell , as the most certaine ( according to Tertullian his opinion ) we doe follow , thinking it sufficient , to keepe vs firmely in the right and ancient Catholicke faith . For we that are the sheep of Christ , doe follow , as touching our religion , the steppes that our fathers led before vs , and , as it were , going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob . Gen. 28. b b Whatsoeuer you meane : you can neuer deduce your religion so high , for it hath beene a patching together long , euen till of very late daies . we mount by degree and degree , I meane , from yeare to yeare , & from age to age , vntill that we come to S. Saturim , S. Denice , S. Marcial , & S Gratian , which were those that did first teach the Catholicke faith in Tholose , in Paris , and to those of Guyenna and Lorayne , and so consequently to all the rest of the Saintes , that first did teach the Catholicke faith through all Christendome , whom wee doe call in iudgement before God , to defende that faith which they haue giuen vs , from hand to hand ; they maie cal vpon the Apostles which sent them , & the Apostles maie direct themselues to Christ , who by the mouth of his most louing Apostle doeth command vs , to continue in that that was taught vs at the beginning . 1. Iohn . 2. And so wee shall continue and rest with the Father , the Sonne and the holie Ghost . And if any bodie doeth come to teach vs anie other doctrine , then that which hath bene taught vs at the beginning : I doe not saie , c c No take heede of that , for the booke of the Scriptures is your bane . writen in booke , but printed in our hearts , that he be holden as an * * Galat. 1. Anathema , or an excommunicate person : yea , although it were an Angell of heauen . The which doeth perswade vs , not to receiue your d d Ours is new to you , as the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles was to the Iews in that time , that vnderstoode not the Scriptures . new doctrine or Gospell , but to keepe our selues vnder the gouernaunce of our olde Pastours and Bishops , without hauing any respect to their euill or good liues : for as touching our faith and saluation , that doeth import nothing . e e This is hardly & boldly saied , for any thing that you know , some take occasion the rather thereby to haue them and so to be conuerted . The good and holie liues of Iesus Christ and his Apostles , hath profited nothing , neither to the obstinate Iewes , nor to the vnbeleeuing Gentiles : f f Open confession , would haue open punishment . Nor in the like case , the depraued life of manie euill Bishops that haue beene at Rome , and in other places haue not shut the dores of heauen , against those that are true Catholickes , and leade particuler liues ; the which are two principall pointes that doe quiet our consciences : g g The first is talke and the la●ter i● little bene seeing how many of you haue learned to be l●●d● of them . I meane , the one , that we beleeue that , that our Pastours and the vniuersall Church haue beleeued these thousand and fiue hundred yeares : and the other , that their euill liues cannot hurt vs . For as the Apostle doeth say , euery man shall beare his owne bundell .

The IX . Chapter .

NOw perswading your selfe , that you haue yeelded vs a sufficient account of your ministrie , when as onely you haue countenanced it with a shew of personall succession , and a bare bragge without any proofe at all of succession also in the Apostolique trueth ( as it may appeare by that which hath beene sayed ) you call vs to a reckoning for ours , and will vs to shew , that God is the authour of it , or else to giue you leaue to say , it commeth from his aduersary . We answere you , that our calling is of God ; first , because orderly , according to the order of the Church , wherein wee liue , wee are by them that are deputed by the Church for that busines , tried and examined , and then with imposition of handes , and speciall prayer vnto God , fitte for that purpose , admitted and ordained ministers of his worde , and Sacramentes . Secondly , because our office of the ministery it selfe is the same that Christ gaue vnto his Church , vnder the names of pastours and Doctours , whose office and properties are set downe and described . Actes . 20. 2. Corinthians . 4. 1. Timothy . 3. Titus . 1. 1. Peter . 5. And thirdly , because we are able to proue by the writen word , that we feede Gods people committed vnto vs with that onely foode , which God hath allowed for his children , and minister the Sacraments according to Christes institution . Lastly , God himselfe hath sealed & ratified our ministery to be of him , in the effectual vocation & conuersion of many thereby . Let vs now therfore heare what you can say , either to weaken this our assertion , that our calling is of God , or any of these reasons , that we vse to proue the same by . First in Tertullians words de Praescrip. aduersus haereticos , you bid vs shew the beginning of our Churches , and reckon vp the succession of bishops down to vs from the beginning &c. you haue heard that the same Tertullian in the very same place , yea euen in the words immediately following yours , addeth , Be it that heretiques deuise thus to doe , for what is not lawfull for them , being once fallen into blasphemy ? But though they shal deuise so ( sayeth he ) they shall gaine nothing . For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine , by the diuersity and contrariety thereof , will pronounce that their Churches haue neither Apostle , nor Apostolique man for the authour thereof . Whereof when he had giuen a reason , he addeth , that those Churches , which cannot shew any Apostle , or Apostolique man to be the founder thereof , in that they were founded long after , as many are yet , in eâdem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae de putantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae : that is , they are no lesse to be reputed for Apostolique agreeing with them in the same faith , euen for the affinitie therof . You thought it good to stop before you came to these words . For these words indeede take away all the force of the obiection grounded vpon the former , in that hereby it is euident , that howsoeuer Tertullian in his time could shew the originall of the Catholique Church , by deducing it , and the doctrine therein professed , euen from the Apostles to his time ; yet hee thought it was possible for heretiques to make shew of the like succession of persons ; but secondly and especially , because thereby it is most cleare , that to proue a Church to be Apostolick , it is not necessary for it alwaies to be able , to deduce such a line of personal succession down from the Apostles , but it is sufficient to be able to make it appeare , that the doctrine thereof agreeth with the doctrine of the Apostles . Which vnles we be able to doe by the Scriptures ( whereby we most cartainly may know , what their doctrine was ) let not our Churches be accounted Apostolique . But if this we be able to doe ( which we doubt not of ) and yours compared and conferred with the Apostolique doctrine therein expressed , shall proue both diuers and contrary ; then for all your fiction of succession , we say vnto you in Tertullians worde , that so your Churches shall be proued to be founded neither by Apostle , nor Apostolique man . For as the Apostles taught not contraries amongst themselues , so neither did the Apostolique men ( saieth he ) vnlesse it were they , that departed from the Apostles : and ours shall proue themselues ( though they were not able to deduce their Succession from the Apostles ) by their affinity of doctrine , with that of the Apostles , to be Apostolique ; and so to haue their originall and beginning from Sion : and so also in the end it will fall out , that Tertullian spoke rather against such as you are , than against vs . And thus you see Tertullian hath sufficiently answered himselfe , and also , hath giuen vs weapons against you , & to defend our selues withall . You gaine euen as little by your similitude taken from tenants , who to proue their title good , must shew their Land-lordes , how by succession they came to their landes . For if all Land-lords should thrust all their tenants from their possessions , which are not able to deduce the descent of their teniments from one to one , euen from the first that held it , & purchased it ; the 10 tenant in the world should not long quietly enioy his owne . Yet you for your parts ( if your bare bragge were a proofe ) are such tenants to the inheritance of the church of Christ , and the Catholique trueth , that you haue not onely proued your title thereunto to be good , by shewing by al lineal succession , how you came to it from Christ , & his Apostles ; but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime . This is easily saied , & wel bragged of you , but it is more , then either you can or meane to proue . O yes , saie you , we can , as it were , going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step , vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa , Paris , and Guienna , as to S. Saturim , Denice , Martiall , and Gratian , and to the rest of the Saints . It may be these were Saints , you speake of ( and yet you haue not shewed vs that ) yea , it may be also you can from age to age , euen from that time to ours , now , name vs the persons , that haue succeeded one another , from those men you speake of : but you shal neuer be able to proue , that all these persons , which haue succeeded , haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith , and so haue deriued it down from the first to you that be the last : which vnles you proue , this climing vpon this ladder you talke of , wil doe you smal pleasure . But you are so confidently perswaded , that the religion , that you are in possession of now , is the very same , that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning , that you denounce him anathema , be hee man or angell , that preacheth against it . Yet this is no proofe , that it is the very same . For you may be deceiued : and if God would giue you grace to read , and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures , sure I am , that euen in thus saying , you would finde , that you haue as far , as your authority reacheth , cursed and excommunicated your own selues , & your whole Church . So far of are we ( though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel ) from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them , that preach any other Gospell , then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first , that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto . And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion , we wish with all our hearts , according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist. 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely , that commeth from the Lord , & is true , that is first deliuered ; & that is strange and false , which is brought in after . De praescrip. aduersus haereticos . Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place , in his 4 booke against Marcion : Id est verius , quod est prius : &c. That is truer , that is former : that is former , that is from the beginning : and that is from the beginning , which is from the Apostles . But then we conclude with him , De praescriptione aduersus haereticos ; Vndè autem extranei & inimici Apostolis haeretici , nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae &c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen , but by the diuersitie of doctrine , which euery one of his owne minde , hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles : therefore let deprauation of Scriptures , and their exposition be accounted to bee , where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde : hitherto Tertullian , and wee with him ; and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse , nor make your bragges anie more ( to deceiue the simple ) of antiquity , vnlesse by the Scriptures ( wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede ) you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs , and ours to disagree . For you may not thinke , that you can cause them , that haue any witte or discretion at al left them , to beleeue that your doctrine is the same , that was taught at the first by the Apostles , because you can say so , or because you can tel them , their father , grandfather , and great grandfather tooke it so : as long as they see , you are loath to come to the triall with the learned , whither it be so , or no , by Gods writen word . Euen herein thundering out your Anathema ( though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion ) yet if your words be wel marked , it may euidently be perceiued , that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word . For you say , If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine , then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning , I do not say , writen in booke ( no , take heed o● that but printed in our harts , let him be Anathema &c. wherby you bewray your minde , namely to be this , that when it shal come in trial , what that religion is , that was preached at the beginning , you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter , but that which was then writen in mens hearts , whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions . But I pray you , how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts , by the ministry of the Apostles better , or more safely ; then by that which they wrote ? Especially seing ( as Irenaeus hath tolde vs ) that which they preached at the first , after by the wil of God , they committed vnto writing , to be the foundation , & piller of our faith : in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word ( to speake most moderately ) you knowe the credit thereof is suspected : and certaine it is , it must agree with the word writen : for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking : or els worthily may it not be suspected onely , but flatly also reiected , as a false and counterfait word : which but that you know it doeth not , you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply , that you would haue him held Anathema , that preacheth any other doctrine , than that which is writen in the books of the scripture . But your owne conscience telling you , that yours was another doctrin , then had warrant fro thence before the curse should drop out of your pen , you thought it wisdome ( least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues ) to tel vs that you directed your sentence , not against those , that teach another doctrine , then those bookes wil warrant ( for of such you allow well enough , or else you should disallowe your selues ) but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts : so leauing to your selues liberty , to make the poore people beleeue , that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise .

O this is too too grosse & paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of men , as this doth , especially in this so great light , that shineth now euery where amongst vs . As for your liues , & the liues of your pastors and great bishops ( though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of ) yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth , therein we would haue held ( for al the other ) communion with them . But seing their liues haue bene such a long time , as there were neuer worse in Sodom , nor any where els ( witnes your own stories Benno Cardin : Platina , Sabellicus , Abbas Vsperg : and others ) but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion , to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture ( as I shew in diuers places of this booke ) wee haue ( as we are counselled Apocal. 18. ) seperated our selues from you and them , least by holding society with you in these your sinnes , we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues . And therefore to conclude this chapter , though you bragge , that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal , that you beleeue a doctrine , that your pastours & the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years ; and that their ill liues cannot hurt you : yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both : for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both : & so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ , but a particuler Synagogue of your own : nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion , these 600 , or 700 yeares to teach you your faith .

The X. Chapter .

NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts , maie it please you to shew vs , how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ , according to the counsel , that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe , as we haue saied before ; who hath taught you the way that you doe follow ? what doctours were your first tutors ? who hath taught you , that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar ? who hath taught the doctrine ( or , if it be not griefe vnto you , heresie ) which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell ? I know before hand , that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ , and his holie Apostles , whose steppes you doe professe to follow , preaching euery where , that there is no difference betweene your Church ( or , to say trueth , Synagogue ) & the church of the Apostles . But I pray , let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles , seing that a a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne & cut off all the Christians that haue beene & are betweene you & them . For to verifie this , I will alleage no other but your owne workes : for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord , speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ , as it was offered in olde time , he doeth write punctuallie these wordes : Caluinus , in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini . I finde ( saieth he ) that those of old time haue changed this fashion , otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require , seeing that their supper did represent a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention , or at the least , of a new maner . There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful , than for them to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord , by whom it was called a supper , to the ende , that onely his authority may be our rule . Yet it is true , that when I consider their good meaning , and that their intent was , neuer to derogate from the onely sacrifice of Christ , I dare not condemne them of folly , and yet I thinke , that one cannot excuse them , that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme : for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews , than the order of Iesus Christ did permit . And this is the point , in which they ought to be resisted : for they haue conformed to much vnto the old Testament , not contenting themselues with the simple institution of Christ , they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law .

These are Caluins words . The Reader may by them see well , how this noble Reformer of the Gospel , doeth correct al ages and Churches , bee they of Martyrs , Confessours , Doctours , Interpreters , Preachers , or any others , from the Apostles time vnto our age , yet doeth he not denie , but that hauing some regard of their simple ignorance , he is content to be so good to them , as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie , because that which they did , was with a good intent : but yet fearing , that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience , he giueth sentence against them , saying , that a a Yet this proue●h not that , for the which you alleadged him . they ought to be resisted , because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ , but rather , that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes . Now , for my part , I thinke Caluin & his fellowes so scrupulous , that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons , that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies . b b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him , is it not euid●nt in his words , that hee speaketh , but onely of some in olde time ? And because that all maner of people , how wise soeuer they were , from the Apostles time vntill our daies , haue fallen into this errour , he doeth counsel , my masters , his deformed followers ( according to his sentence ) to follow none of them at al , but only the pure word of the Lord , preached by Iesus Christ , and by his aboue mentioned Apostles .

The X. Chapter .

IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine , and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial , and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it , & that we are sure , that that doctrine therein warranted , hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose , beene preserued and continued in his Church . You returning now againe to take accounts of vs , how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that went before vs , & fed by the tents of his shepheards , are answered . And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying , who hath taught vs the way that we follow , & who were the Doctours , that were ou● first tutors , we answere you , that Christ , his Apostles , & Euangelists in the new Testament were our first tutors , & since them in the principal points of our religion , the aucient Fathers , whose names and monuments are knowen vnto the Church , that liued for 1000. years after Christ , & those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter . But particulerly you would know of vs , who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar ? Here I suppose , you meane by real presence that real presence , which is in this case now taught , and receiued in your Church , vnder the formes of bread and wine , to the mouthes of al receiuers , be they faithful or faithlesse : for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer . This then being your meaning , we do not onely ( as you suppose ) answere you , that we haue learned of Christ & his Apostles to deny it , but also of al the ancient writers of credit , & account in the Church for 700 , or 800 , years togither , & since we haue bene continued in the same by Bertram , and others before named , and their followers , as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writen to that purpose , & namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus consensus , the true catholick consent of the holy Scriptures & ancient Church , of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper , and of al the controuersie thereabout , printed at Tygure 1578 : which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be soundly able to answere & confute as long as you liue . And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles , wherein you suppose , that betwixt Christ and his Apostles , and vs , there is none that we can produce of our iudgement , or otherwise against you . But you take vpon you to proue , that we cut of them al , that haue bene betweene them & vs , because Caluin hath writen ( handling this matter of the sacrament ) that he did find , that they of old time had changed the fashion of the administration therof otherwise , them Christs institution would beare &c. wheru●ō your conclusion followeth not , for diuers causes . For an argument from one to al holdeth not : as Caluin hath done so ; ergo it is all out opion , & we al do so . For though we account of him as of a rare & singuler minister of the Lord , yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did , and saied . For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts : neither wil you be contented , that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn from any one of your greatest , & most famous learned writers , to presse al the rest . And a second reason of the weaknes of your argument is , that there is more in your conclusion , then is in the antecedent giuen you by him . For you would conclude ( for those are your words , to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin ) that we condemne & cut of al the Christians , that haue bene & are betwixt Christ , his Apostles , and vs : wheras Caluin speaketh not of al , but of some of olde time . The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you , in the euen in the words set downe by you , he sheweth plainly , that though in them that he spake of , he noted some aberration from the simplicity of Christs institution , yet he did not therfore cut them of from the Church , nor n them . What ? are you such a cutter , that you straight cut of al those from communion with you , in whom you can iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion , or practise of life ? Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends . That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren , either ancient or of later time , we may safely note , tel them of , and labour to reforme ; & yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God , faith , and Baptisme ; otherwise , we can , and ought to holde peace & Christian communion with them : or els where can there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church ? For some differences of opinions , & vsages , there haue alwaies yet beene , and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another , and betwixt some members of the true church , or other . You needed not therfore ( I warrant you ) one whit haue beene afraide , that Caluin & his fellowes were so scrupulous , that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there : and yet the letteth not , but that he should counsel his readers , to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them , or any other differing from it .

The XI . Chapter .

YOu do● verie wel , that S. Paul doth compare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body , seing that Iesus Christ is the head , vnto whom the body is ioined by ioints , bones , & sinews . If one should then demande of you , how the feete are ioined to the head , you will answere me , by the legs , which are next vnto the feete . And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head , you will answer , by the ioints , and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe , and so consequently from member to member . I doe beleeue , that we are all of one accord , * * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand , and so consequently , that we are the lower most part of the body , so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs . Then , my masters , you that haue made so f●ne a● Anotomie of the Masse , at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation . a a You were a very pleasant man be like , that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth , and when you had done , daunce after your owne pipe , & it seemes , you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant , that no beholder could forbare laughter . If you should see such another as Apelles , that would paint a man , and that he had drawen his head , and without painting the rest of his bodie , he had set his feete vnder his eares , what would you sa●● to such a Table ? ( Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici ? ) Would you not thinke , that he was a simple painter , or else a great Iester ? Euen so doe you deserue , that one should laugh at your ministerie : b b This is vntrue and a grosse slander , for we hold and teach , that euer since Christ to our daies , there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith , & therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie . For you will ioine your Church ( if it may bee so called ) vnto the church of the Apostles , without setting forth anie members betweene them . You take but scant measure , when you will cut of all the Bishops , Pastours and doctours , that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies , they being the members that followe the head of the church . This maie well be called a new Religion , or , to saie the truth , it is a meere presumption , to flie without winges , or to climbe without a ladder . And I saie to you againe , that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard , that I mentioned before , who doeth saie vnto vs , that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks , we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe , that haue gone before vs , that is to saie , that we should reckon c c But th●s in truth yours cannot do , therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason . by succession , the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine , the which , as we haue shewed , the Catholicke church doeth , and hath euer done .

The XI . Chapter .

As though you had most substantially proued by Caluins words , that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs , in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body , whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared : whereupon you gather , that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body , so there must be in the church ; and that therefore our church must needes be a monstrous mishapen thing , in ioyning the Christians of these later daies , with the Apostles , without any betwixt , and fos●●ating , as it were , the feete of the body hard to the eares , without any other members betwixt the one and the other . And thus hauing framed this mery conceit in your owne heade , you call vpon your frendes to laugh at it with you , and so you proceede in telling vs , that whiles we take this course , we fly without wings , and climbe without a ladder , and despise the counsell of Salomon : which after your maner you interpret that we should reckon by succession the pastours , that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine , the which ( you say ) you haue shewed you haue done . To what purpose now is all this , seeing in trueth neither we doe thus cut of all Christians betwixt them and vs , neither haue you shewed any such succession of pastours downe from them to you , continuing in your doctrine . Truely to no other purpose can they serue , but to expresse your owne ridiculous vanity . Howbeit , because you called in the former Chapter for the names of those , that haue caught vs to deny your real presence in the sacrament , and vpon a conceit in your owne fansie , that you haue posed vs , you haue growen to bee thus full of these swelling wordes of vanity , and because I feare , neither you , nor many of your disciples , will vouchsafe to peruse those books that I sent you vnto , for answere in that point , & yet haue hope , that for your sake some of you may chaunce vouchsafe to reade this : I will not sticke with you , particulerly to satisfie your request a little further . First therefore vnderstand , that we haue learned to deny your kinde of reall presence of Christ himselfe , the institutour of this Sacrament , because he hath flatly and vehemently affirmed without exception , Iohn . 6.54 . that whosoeuer eateth his flesh , & drinketh his bloud hath eternall life . Whereas by the meanes of your doctrine it followeth ( because all that receiue this sacrament haue not faith , but manie lacke it ) that it shall bee eaten of manie that shal be neuer the better by it , but the worse . We haue also further learned it of him , in that in the same Chapter , speaking of the eating of his body , & drinking of his bloud , he drew his hearers from a grosse conceit of eating & drinking him by their bodily mouthes , by vsing of the word beleeueth in stead of eateth and drinketh , ver. 40.47 . and cap. 7.38 . by mentioning vnto them his ascention , Iohn . 6.62 . & lattly by saying vnto them , It is the Spirit that quickeneth , the flesh profiteth nothing : the words that I speake vnto you , are spirit & life : ver. 63. This finally we haue learned of him , saying , If any shall say vnto you , Lo here is Christ , there is Christ , beleeue it not . Math. 24.23 . & by his continuing at the table , when he first instituted and ministred it vnto his Apostles , without alteration either of his place , or forme . Mat. 26. Mar. 12. Luke . 22.1 . Cor. 11. The Apostles & euangelists haue also taught vs to deny it , in that they teach vs , that he visibly ascended into heauen , & that he shall so also come againe , when he commeth from thence &c. Act. 1.11 . especially seeing his comming to iudgement is called his second comming , Heb , 9.28 . and vntil the restitution of all things , it is saied by Peter , the heauens must containe him . Act. 3.21 . The Euangelists in laying downe vnto vs the story of his natiuity , life & death , so prouing vnto vs , that he was & is a true and perfect man , encourage vs also ( least we should with the Marcionites , & other heretiques denie the trueth of his manhood ) cōtantly to ●●●y your reall presence ; for the maintenance whereof , you are driuen to fansy a number of things quite contrary to the nature & trueth of his manhood . And lastly , in that reciting the words of the institution , they tel vs , that Christ commanded that to be done in remembrance of him , Luke . 22.19 . 1. Cor. 11.24 . & there Paul saith ( v. 26. ) As often as ye shall eate this bread , & drink this cup , ye shew the lords death till he come : which words plainly argu , that though the sacrament be both rightly ministres● receiued , yet it inferreth not any such real presence , as you ther imag●● .

Now betwixt them & vs we finde infinite places , in writers of all ages , that teach vs still to denie your reall presence : but amongst many , marke these for example . Tertullian in his 4. booke against Marcion interpreteth these words . Hoc est corpus meum , thus , that is to say , This is a figure of my body . Augustine against Adamantus the Manichee , c. 12. writeth , that christ doubted not to say , This is my body , when he gaue a signe of his body : & vpon the 3. Ps. he saieth , that Christ admitted Iudas to a banquet , where he commended a figure of his body to his disciples : & vpon the 98. Ps. he saith , yee shal not eat this body that yee see , neither shall yee drinke that bloud , which they shall shed that crucify me : I haue commended vnto you a certaine sacrament , it being spiritually vnderstoode will giue you life . In his 3. booke therfore of Christian doctrine he writeth thus , This saying of Christ , Except yee eate the flesh of the son of man &c. seemeth to command an heinous thing , & a wicked : therefore it is a figure , commanding vs to be partakers of Christs passion , keeping in our minds to our great profit & confort , that his flesh was crucified & wounded for vs . c. 16. he saith , It is a miserable slauery of the soule to take the signes for the things signified , in the same booke , c. 5. And therefore in his 23. epistle , he telleth vs , that the similitude betwixt the signe & the thing signified is the cause , why the one beareth the name of the other in sacraments : & in his 57. question vpon Leuitic . he giueth vs this rule , The thing that signifieth , is wont to bear the name of the thing which it signifieth ; as Paul said , The rock was Christ , & not , it signified Christ , but euen as it had bene indeed , which neuertheles was not Christ by substance , but by signification . So that his vsual doctrine is , to teach vs in this sacrament , to seeke christ in heauen by faith , & thereby to make him present , which otherwise is absent , as you may read in his 50. tract vpon Iohn , & els where very often . And with Augustine the rest of the fathers consent in this matter , & therefore nothing is more common with them , then to call the outward part in this sacrament a signe , figure , similitude , resemblance , or representation , as it appeareth in these places . Chrysostom in his 83. Homil: vpon Mat. Hierom in his 2. booke against Iouinian , Ambr. in his 4. booke of the sacraments , c. 5. Basil in his lyturgy : Ephr : in his 4. booke against the impugners of Christs manhood by humane reason . And Origen vpon Leuit: hom : 7. teacheth vs , that the letter of those words , Except yee eat the flesh of the son of man &c. killeth : & therefore he teacheth vs there spiritually to vnderstand them . Who vpon these wordes of Christ gathereth , that no wicked man can eate the flesh of christ , vpon Mat. c. 15. as for the other part , he granteth the wicked may eat , & that when it hath beene eaten , in the end it is auoided into the place of easement , Hom: 15. vpon Mat. Athanasius noteth , the christ made mention of his ascension . Iohn 6. to withdraw them from corporall & fleshly understanding of his words ; vpon these words , whosoeuer speaketh a word against the son &c. But Chrys. goeth plainly to work & saith in his 11. Hom: vpon Mat. that the very body of christ himselfe is not in the holy vessels , but the mistery & sacrament thereof is therin conteined . And therefore in his 46. Hom. vpon Iohn , sheweth vs , the christ saying the flesh profiteth nothing Iohn 6. therby warned vs to take heede of carnall and fleshly vnderstanding of his words : which is to vnderstand them ( saieth he ) simply : and in his 4. Homil: vpon the 4. to the Corinth : he telleth vs , that the body of Christ is the carion , where the Eagles will bee : he nameth eagles ( saieth he ) to shew , that who so will approch to his body , must mount aloft & haue no dealing with the earth , nor be drawen downward , but must euermore fly vp &c. For this is a table of Eagles ( saieth he ) that fly on high , & not of Iaies , that creepe beneath . Christ tooke bread which conforteth mans hart , that he might represent therby his body & bloud , saith Hier. vpon the 26. of Mat. As thou hast in baptism receued the similitude of death so likewise dost thou in this sacrament drink the similitude of christs bloud , saieth Ambrose in his 4 booke , & 4 , c. of the sacraments . Ciprian de vnctione chrismatis , writeth thus , Christ in his last supper gaue vnto his Apostles bread & wine , which he called his body & bloud but on the Crosse hee gaue his very body to be wounded with the hands of the souldiers , that the Apostles might declare vnto the world , how & in what maner , the bread may be the flesh & bloud of Christ . And the maner straight way he declareth thus , that those things , which do signifie , & those things which be signified by them , may be both called by one name . Fulgentius in his booke to King Thrasimund hath these words , This cup or chalice is the new Testament , that is to say , doth signifie the new Testament . Theodoret in his first Dialogue most plainely writeth , that Christ honoured the signes and representations , which are seene , with the name of his body and bloud , not changing their natures , but adding grace to nature : and yet more plainely in the 2. Dialogue he writeth thus : the mystical signes after sanctification go not from their nature : for they tary in their former substance , figure , and forme . Yea euen Gelasius a Pope , about the yeare 500. against Eutiches , is as plaine , saying , in the Eucharist the substance and nature of bread and wine cease not . For the image and similitude of the body and bloud is celebrated in those mysteries . And Bertram in his treatise of this matter , writen in the time of Carolus Caluus laboureth by many proofes & testimonies to shew , that bread and wine remaine still , and that we are here to followe Christ in a figure and mistery . And Bede vpon Luke . 22. saith , because bread doeth comfort mans heart , and wine doeth make good bloud in his body : therefore the bread is mystically compared to Christs body , and the wine to Christs bloud . The like saying hath Haymo in his 5. booke De sermonum proprietate . Emissenus de consecrat. Dist. 2. cap. Quia corpus ; compareth the conuersion in the Sacrament to the conuersion in a man regenerated , which we all know is in quality , and not in substance . There are two Epistles yet extant in the Saxon tongue , made by one Alfricke in King Etheldreds time ; about the yeare of the Lord 996 , being then ( as some write ) Bishop of Canterbury , wherein he teacheth the bread and wine to be no otherwise the body and bloud of Christ , then manna , and the water of the rocke was Christ : who also translated 80 sermons out of latin into the Saxon tongue , whereof 24. were appointed to be read for homilies : and in that which was to be read on Easter day , there is much direct matter against Transubstantiation , and your reall presence . And since these times you know well inough wee haue had many from time to time ( yea , mo than you well like of ) that haue beene as flat and direct against your kinde of reall presence , as we are now . This Master Foxes booke of Actes and Monuments hath made euident to all the world . And it is famously knowen , that before your Lateran Councel , vnder Innocent the 3. in the yeare 1215. it was not decreed to bee as you now hold . It appeareth also by the last session of the councell of Florence ( which is not much aboue 140. yeares ago ) that the Greeke Church vntill then stoode against your doctrine of transubstantiation , which is the ground of your reall presence . And Tonstall ( though otherwise a great man on your side ) yet in his booke of this sacrament , saieth , perhaps it had beene better to leaue euery man that would be curious concerning this matter , of the maner how Christ is present , to his owne coniecture ; as by his confession , before the councel of Lateran , it was left at libertie . And Iohn Duns , a frend of yours , vpon the 4. booke of the sentences saieth , that the wordes might haue beene expounded more plainely , then by Transubstantiation , if it had pleased the Church . Gabriel Biell another great doctour , vpon the canon of the masse in his 40. reading plainely confesseth , that it is not expressed in the canon of the Bible , how the body of Christ is there , whither by Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation . Euen so your great Bishop Iohn Fisher writing against Luthers booke of the captiuity of Babylon , is enforced to confesse , that he findeth not in Mathew , nor any where els in the scripture , any thing to proue , that there is thereby the reall presence of Christ in your masse : nor that whensoeuer a Priest shall go about that matter , hee maketh the bread & wine the body and bloud of Christ : and so concludeth , that he thinketh , that euery man vnderstandeth , that the certaintie of that matter dependeth not so much of the Gospell , as it doeth vpon the vse , tradition and custome of the Church . These testimonies forasmuch as directly they are against your literall exposition of Christs words , your new deuise of transubstantiation , the onely piller and buttresse of your real presence , and against your grosse and carnal eating of him with the bodily mouthes of all receiuers good and bad , they may not bee denied to bee forcible against your reall presence . For the cause thereof denied and taken away , the effect must cease : and if the consequent thereof , which is eating of Christes precious bodie with the filthy mouthes of vnbeleeuers bee absurd , the antecedent thereof must also bee absurde .

Howbeit , because you shall not say , that we are vnwilling to yeelde you thorowly an account , why we deny your reall presence ; vnderstand you yet further , we are mooued so to doe , because your doctrine of transubstantiation ( the onely vpholder thereof ) and the doctrine it selfe ( as you holde it ) bringeth in , without all reason , such an interpretation and construction of the wordes of the instruction of this Sacrament , as taketh away the analogie betweene the signes , and the thinges whereof they are signes , ouerthroweth the nature of a Sacrament , in anihilating or otherwise abandoning the outward part ; which scripture , and al antiquity necessarily require to continue , to the constitution of a Sacrament : as bringeth in many monstrous absurdities and needelesse miracles , contrary both to the true faith of Christes manhoode , and good maners ; abhorring , both by nature and expresse warrant of the scripture , from eating and drinking of mans flesh and bloud couered or vncouered : and as lastly inferreth an eating , & drinking of Christ by the mouthes of the wicked and vnbeleeuers , as wel as of beleeuers . Which eating of Christ with the bodily mouth , neither standeth with the doctrine of the word ( which teacheth no such bodily commition of our bo●ies with Christs , & therefore ( seeing the sacraments are but confirmations of that which is taught in the word ) cannot , or may not be taught herein ) nor yet with the nature of the couenant & communion with christ , which is spirituall , & belongeth only to the faithful , & therefore only m●st be offered , sealed & ratified in this sacrament to them . And yet for al●●●s , I would not haue you to imagine , that we deny al kinde of reall presence in this sacrament of Christs body & bloud . For we doe most constantly teach with the ancient fathers , that in this sacrament though by means thereof there be a change in name , vse , honour , and estimation in the outward elements ; yet they remaine stil to be fed on with the mouth of the body , and that when by occasion of that which is done by the outward elements , the communicant calleth thankfully to remembrance christs death , and beleeueth that his body was as certainly broken for him ● his bloud shed , as there he seeth the bread broken , wine poured out , and both deliuered vnto him ; & that thereby his ful & perfect saluation was absolutely wrought : them by this mouth of his soule , faith , he as certainly , though after a spiritual , & vnspeakeable maner , feedeth vpon christs very broken body , & bloudshed , & groweth through the working of the spirit to a communion therwith , as by the mouth of his body he feedeth vpon the outward elements , & so by the force of nature hath them vnited with his nature . And marueil not , that faith can & doth make the body broken and bloud shed of Christ ( which was now done 1500. yeares ago ) yet liuely & truly present . For it can make things spoken & taught in the word ( though done neuer so long ago ) & things absent to be present . And therefore when Paul wrote to the Galat: though christ long before had beene crucified , and was ascended , yet by the meanes of the word & sacraments on the one side ministred amongst them , and of their faith on the other side , he saith , that Christ was euen crucified amongst them . Gal. 3. wherein ( as Chrysostom noteth vpon that place ) his meaning was , to shew the strength of faith , which is able to see things though far away , & that by the eies of faith , Christs death was more clearly & perfectly seene , then it was of many , that were present at it , & saw all that was done . You seeme in this your doctrine , and for the defence thereof , to be great aduancers of Gods omnipotencie . But in Christes time , I pray you tell me , whither they that beleeued that Christ could fulfill their desire though absent ; or they that thought , he must be locally present , or els it would not be , had the greater faith in his omnipotencie ? I am sure you will say , the faith of the former was the stronger , and that they therein shewed themselues better perswaded of Christes almightinesse , then the later , for the euidence of the matter will enforce you to confesse thus much . Then to applie this to this present matter , the thing , that both you and wee desire , is , truely to bee fedde with the bodie and bloud of Christ to eternall life : whither then doe wee or you indeede beleeue his omnipotencie better : we , that say and beleeue , that he can and doeth feede vs herewith , and vnite vs and himselfe together in the vse of this sacrament , hee tarrying still in heauen according to the Scriptures ; or you , that imagine , that hee cannot doe it , vnlesse hee creepe into your mouthes , vnder the formes of bread and wine ? Nay , whatsoeuer you talke of his omnipotencie , this argueth , that your faith is too too weake therein , in that you must haue such a reall presence of him , as you imagine , or else you thinke it will not serue your turne . You will graunt , that distance of place betwixt heade and feet , betwixt man and wife , father and sonne breaketh not , nor hindreth the vnion , that nature hath made betweene them : what weaknes of faith then were it , to thinke , that Christ our head , our husband , our father must be locally conioined with vs , or els the vnion betwixt him and vs cannot be perfected ? Assure your selues , if beeing at this table , you will secke him by faith , where hee is in heauen , and not , as you doe , in the formes of bread and wine ( whereunto only your owne fansie hath tied him ) by your faith you shall so reach , and apprehend him , and hee by his spirit will so embrace you , that there was neuer head more surely by vienes , sinewes , arteries and other helps of nature tied vnto the inferiour parts , nor husband to wife , nor father to sonne more fast and surely linked and knit , by the bonds of naturall vnion , then he will vnite himselfe vnto you . For the defence of your reall presence , and for the auoiding of many absurdities concerning Christs manhoode , that thereby you are fallen into , you talke much of the state of Christes glorified body . But alas , doe you not see , that whatsoeuer you talke thereof , is quite besides the purpose ? For this is not a Sacrament of his glorified bodie , but of his crucified bodie : not of the coniunction of his bodie and bloud , but of the separation of the one from the other : and therefore Christ in the institution , called not bread and wine simply his bodie and bloud , but his bodie broken and bloud shed , and gaue the bread a sacrament of the one , and the wine , a part from the bread , a Sacrament of the other . Whereupon it is euident , that here we haue to doe with his passible body , with his bodie broken , & his bloud shed vpon the crosse , and not with the state of his glorified and impassible body ; and therefore vnlesse the state of his passible body dying vpon the crosse , will stand with your reall presence , it hath no place here . For by the very wordes of the institution ( which you would seeme otherwhiles most carefully and literally to vrge ) it is the body broken and the bloud shed , that must here be really present : which otherwise then by faith , how can it be ? seeing it is so long since his body was broken , and bloud shed ; and since it hath not beene really at any time iterated , nor can be , for he died once for all , and so , that since he is not to die any more , as the scripture teacheth , Rom. 6. Which if you and your fellows would seriously marke , the naked and bare words of the institution , would driue you from your kinde of reall presence ( which cannot be of the body broken , and bloudshed of Christ now ) to embrace our reall presence thereof , thorow faith and effectuall remembrance , that they were once so vsed to our redemption , which is possible and effectuall vnto saluation . Thus much to answere your demande concerning this matter .

The XII . Chapter .

AS touching the rest , a a What neede then this long dispute , to disproue our calling , for want of it . you haue accustomed in your ministrie , to vse the imposition , or laying on of handes , and you saie , that it is an ancient and honest Ceremonie , * * Exod. 29. in this you saie the trueth . For as wee reade , of great antiquitie this ceremonie hath beene vsed , as well in the olde lawe , as in the lawe of grace . And vnto that did redounde the imposition of hands , laied vpon the * * Leuit. 4. Wether that was brought to the immolation of the sacrifice of *b *b Num. 8. & 17 Moises lawe : to declare , that those that are ordeined vnto the seruice of God , and vnto the ministrie of the church , b b Num. 17. There is nothing concerning imposition of handes . ought to retaine the like ceremonie : and so the Israelites did laie their handes vpon the Leuites , & Moises likewise did lay his hands vpon Iosua , when he was made a captaine of the Israelites , who did represent the church of Christ . The Apostles haue vsed the like , as we find , where we reade , that * * Act. 8.19 . & 13 S. Peter & S. Iohn did laie their handes vpon the Christian people of Samaria , and S. Paul vpon the Ephesians , and likewise the Apostles vpon the seuen Deacons , & vpon S. Paul and Barnabas . *c *c Timot. 2. S. Paul doeth admonish Timothie , not to despise the grace that he had receiued by the imposition of hands , * * The places of Paul to Timothy are clarkely quoted , but yet according to your maner , that is , not one of them right . & that he should set forth the gift of God , that he had receiued with the imposition of the handes of S. Paul vpon him . Hee doeth likewise commaund him , not to vse this imposition of handes without discretion , to the end that he doe not communicate with the sinne of another . Caluin according to these authorities in his institution booke ( Ar. 8. cap. 50. ) of faith , doeth commande the like to be vsed in his church . It doth appeare ( saieth he ) that the Apostles haue vsed no other ceremony in the vocation to the ministery , but this imposition of handes . Now I thinke , that they tooke this custome of the Iewes , who did present vnto God by imposition of handes that , that they would blesse & consecrat . After this sort Iacob ( Gen. 48. ) when he would blesse Ephraim & Manasses , he laied his handes vpon their heades . Our sauiour did the like vpon the litle children , when he did praie . Mat. 19. And as I thinke , it was all to one end or deined in the law : & therefore , the Apostles , by the imposition of handes , did signifie , that they did offer vnto God him , that they did receiue into the ministrie , although they did vse it likewise with those , vnto whom they did distribute the visible gifts of the holie Ghost . How so euer it be , they haue vsed this solemnitie as manie times , as they did ordeine any bodie to the ministrie of the church , as we see by example , as well touching the pastours and doctours , as the Deacons . Now , although there be no speciall commandement , as touching the imposition of hands : yet notwithstanding , seeing that we reade , that the Apostles did vse it continually , that which they did vse so diligently , ought to be vnto vs as a precept . And surely , it is a profitable thing , to set forth to the people the dignitie of the Ministerie by such a Ceremonie , & to make him knowe , that is thus or deined minister , that he apperteineth no more to himself , but that he is dedicated to the seruice of God & of his church . &c. d d To what purpose is all this long discourse of imposition of hands , seeing we doe vse it . And it is notoriously knowen , that all these had imposition of handes , and had an outward ordinarie calling according to the times & places when and wherein they liued . Thus , seeing that Caluin doeth confesse the imposition of hands to be so necessary for the ministrie of the church , & that it is approued , aswell by the lawe of nature , as by the lawe of Moises or of the Gospell : Answere vs then , who was he , that laied his hands vpon Caluin , to safe conduict the charge of his conscience ? You will answere me , Zuinglius , or Oecolampadius , or the others of his time . And if by chance one would be so curious , as to pursue this demande , mounting a litle higher : I meane , to know of whom these aboue named haue receiued their blessing & imposition of handes , I thinke you will not name the Apostles , if you will not haue euerie man to laugh at your folly : for there is none so simple , but doth know , that they died aboue . 1500. yeares agone . And seing that your Patriarch hath made vs so goodlie an oratum , as touching this imposition of hands , affirming it to be necessarie , both by the lawe of Nature , the law of Moyses , and the lawe of Grace , how doeth it come to passe , that Zuinglius hath not vsed it , to confirme his ministerie .

The XII . Chapter

SEeing you know and confesse that we allow & reteine in our vocation this ceremony of imposition of hands , what needed you to haue made so much adoe therabout ? But hauing iustified the vse therof by Caluins testimony , and otherwise , you demand of whom Caluin Zuinglius & Oecolampadius had this imposition of hands ? I answer , that not only these , but many other , whom god first stirred vp in these later daies to detect Antichrist , & so to bring him to consumption , of whom the rest that haue followed in that course haue descended , & had theirs , had the same vocation & succession , wherof you your selues brag . For most of them were priests ( as you cal them ) ordred by your selues , & doctours of diuinity allowed in their times by the vniuersities , wherin they were brought vp . But the same vocation , which you abused , our men haue laboured to vse well & to the vaine succession of persons , wherwith you decked yourselues , they haue added the succession of true doctrine , with you had corrupted . So that what good soeuer was in your vocation , ours had it also , & besides , since they haue had confirmation of their ministry amongst themselues , and by the consent & approbation of the people amongst whom they haue ministred .

The XIII . Chapter .

IF that the good doctor * * Cip. 1. epist. c. 6. S. Cyprian had beene in these our daies , might he not well haue saied against your schollers , that which he did write against a a Ciprian cals him that he speakes against Nouatianus , who was a Roman , and the disciple of Nouatus of Africke . That Nouatus & Nouatianus were two seuerall persons , it appeares in Ciprian lib. 2. ep st. 8. & . 9. Nouatus ? there needed no other , but insteede of Nouatus to put in Caluinus or Zuinglius ; & nomine mutato , de vobis fabula narrabitur . Seeing that the saied S. Ciprian doeth hold & affirme , that Nouatus ought to be accounted as no Bishop , because he succeeded no body , but rather that he did make himselfe a Bishop , b b These words you adde , for they are not in Ciprian . without any imposition of hands . Then to what purpose , , I praie you , are ye of the opinion , that c c This is but your slader & saying : for both these were and so are wee able to proue that they had sufficient warrant for their calling . Caluin & Zuinglius are such faithfull ministers , considering that they are as farre from prouing the confirmation of their ministrie , as euer was Nouatus . You will answere mee , that you haue no neede of the imposition of hands of the Papists , superstitious Idolaters & infidels . But this maketh your cause neuer the better : for if you are so scrupulous by nature , that it goeth against your consciences to come to kneele to our Bishops , you should ( I say in tunes past ) haue required your ancient ministers to haue giuen you a warrant for the confirmation of your estate , when one doeth demande of you , since when your Religion began you are not content , to claime the beginning from the Apostles , but rather , stepping hardlie forwarde , ye are not content to staie at Dauid or Abraham , but you must needes fetch it from Abel , d d Yea euen from that doctrine , that God taught Adam and Eue in Paradise , though it grieue you . yea , from Adam . And if one should spurre you forward , you would go , I knowe not whether . Then seeing that your church is so ancient , and that it hath indured till our daies ( if we will beleeue you ) it is not like to be true , that it hath beene destitute altogether of ministers : for although it be so , that God did greatlie afflict the Israelites with the captiuitie of Babylon , yet did he neuer leaue them without comfort of good doctours , such as Daniel , Ezechias , e e Whence proue you , that they had there a pro●●er then named Abdias ? Or that there was then any Prop. ●●named Ez●chias : but it may be you would haue saied Ezechiel . Abdias , and manie others : Euen so you , that thinke in your owne heades , to bee the people of God , I cannot thinke ( if it bee so ) hee would so haue giuen you ouer , as to want ministers to comfort you in your afflictions , and to ordeine your ministerie , by the in position of handes : f f These 2. whiles they were yours , and so others , as Luther , Lucer , Capito , Carolstadius , Oecolampadius and the rest , had calling either to be priests , or to be ordred by your owne Bishops , or at least to be doctors of Diuinity by the vniuersitie , wherein they were brought vp . And after these two were ours , the one had an ordinary calling by the presbytery , magistrate and people of Geneuae the other of Zurich , and so had the rest in the places where they taught . What staies you , that you doe not go to them , seing that you haue nothing to doe with ours ? And if you say , that you haue done so , doe vs so much pleasure , as to let vs heare their names , & in what time they did florish , or otherwise you maie pardon vs , if wee giue no credit to your fained imaginations .

The XIII . Chapter .

YOU boldly adde vnto Cyprians wordes , these words , without any imposition of hands , for neither where the other words of his with you recite are , nor yet any where in that epistle doeth he once mention the ceremony of imposition of hands . Neither can Cyprians saying against Nouatianus ( whom you cal wrongfully and ignorantly Nouatus ) truly be applied either to Caluin or Zuinglius , seing they had ( as I haue read ) the ordinary calling & vocation of the times , wherin they liued euen from your selues . For as for Caluin , his father got him a prebend or benefice in a Cathedrall church , and a curateship in a towne hard by , of a Bishop of yours , where he was borne , which would not haue beene giuen him , vnles he had beene within orders , I think . And Zwinglius , it is wel knowen , was a Canon in the cathedral church of Zurich , 2. or 3. years there liuing & preaching , before he was ours . And so I read the other preached also in his cure , before he was ours : whereby it should seeme , that the one had imposition of hands to holy orders ( as you terme them ) of some Bishop of France , and the other of some Bishop likewise of Germany . Now after , when as by force of the trueth , they grew to be of our Religion , & so came out of Babylon to vs , they both were according to the order of those churches where they serued , called orderly to the ministry of the Gospell , where also they both succeeded others , that went before them . Neither of which could Nouatianus truely alleadge for himselfe , and therefore Ciprian saith , that he was neither in the church nor Bishop . But seeing we account our church so ancient , as that when we are asked , when our Religion began , we will say , it hath beene euen from Adam , & also that euer since it hath endured , and continued ; you say , it is not likely that it hath at any time beene altogether destitute of ministers . For though God did afflict the Israelites for their sinnes with the captiuity of Babylon , yet he did neuer leaue them without confort of good doctours , as Daniel , Ezechiel , Abdias , and others : & therefore seing we haue nothing to do with yours , we either haue , or should haue sought them out , & haue taken imposition of hands of them , which if we haue done , you wish vs to tell you their names , when and where they florished . To answer you indeede for the substance of our Religion , we say it is the same with God himselfe first taught Adam in paradise . For first , he was taught to serue God , not according to his owne will , but according to the law that God gaue him . Secondly , he being found a transgressour of that holy will of God , after he was brought to see his sin , & the danger thereof , he is sent for recouery by Gods promise , only to the promised seede : and then is he taught , how to liue in his vocation : wherein lieth the sum of that Religion , which wee now teach and preach . For first , we teach men , how to serue God according to his owne reuealed wil , & not according to their owne fansie , as you doe . Secondly , finding men many waies to decline from this rule , wee labour to make them see their sins , and the danger thereof , which when we haue done , we send them only to Iesus Christ for help and comfort . In both with you also offend ; first , whiles you keepe men from seeing the multitude and grieuousnes of their sinnes , by extenuating the power of original sin , by making man beleeue , that the fulfilling of the law is now possible vnto him , that many sins of their owne nature , for their littlenes are veniall : and that the first motions of sinne arising from the corruption of our owne hearts not consented vnto are no sin : and then you go from this most ancient order of God , in that you send men for their recouerie not only to Iesus Christ , but to their owne freewill , merits and satisfaction , & to a number of thinges very trifling and ridiculous : by vse and doing whereof , you would perswade them , they shall purchase to themselues remission of their sinnes . In the 3. point also , we follow the patterne of our heauenly father , calling vpon euery man according to his calling , to get his liuing in an honest vocation , with the sweate of his browes ; and shewing woman , that in lawfull wedlocke ( if by nature or otherwise she haue not the gift of continencie ) though to her paine & sorrow , she is for the encreasing of Gods kingdome , and the common weale , wherein shee liueth , to conceaue , and beare children ; whereas you drawe both the one and the other herefrom , into Hermitages , Cloisters , and Nunries , there to liue an idle life , out of all vocation profitable to the Church , or common weale . And we are perswaded , that this Religion , and consequently a Church to holde and embrace it hath euer since vnto these daies continued . And we graunt you also , that though God for the sinnes of his people doe afflict his Church diuers times , and that grieuously ; as he did the Isralites with the 70. yeares captiuity : yet then he doeth not leaue them without teachers to comfort them , and therefore in all ages and times doe constantly beleeue in one place or other , that this our Religion and Church hath had some such . Yet you must take this with you , that in such times of the affliction of the Church the ordinary state of the ministrie thereof hath often failed . For you haue heard Azariah the prophet tel king Asa , in respect of such times as were before his time , that Israell a long season had beene without the true God , without prophet to teach , and without lawe , 2. Chron. 15. And in the 3 of Hosea you may reade prophecied , that the children of Israell shall remaine many daies without a King , without a Prince , without an offring , without an image , without an Ephod , and without Teraphim : by which wordes , the Prophet plainely foresheweth , an interruption should be of their outward ordinary visible ministry . And euen in respect of the time that you mention , it appeareth in the 2. of the Im●●●ntat . that the like was fulfilled in the Church , in respect of that time of their captiuity in Babylon . For there Ieremie lamenting the state of the Church then , saieth , The Lord hath caused the feastes and Sabbothes to be forgotten in Sion , and hath despised in the indignation of his wrath , the King and the Priests , the Lord hath forsaken his altar , & hath abhorred his sanctuary . And when those prophecies of the florishing of Antichrist : 2. Thes. 2. and Reuel : 17. and that of the Churches being driued into the wildernes , and there remaining for a time , Reuel. 12. should be fulfilled , who seeth not , that it is no strange thing , but a thing plainly foreshewed , should be , that neither the church herselfe nor her teachers should be very visible and apparent . And therefore speaking of those times , when indeede those prophesies were verified , as you doe , you doe our church and her ministers great & double wrong : first , in thus chasing them into the wildernes , there to saue themselues from your fury : and then , yet in exacting at our handes the names of them , whom God by thus hiding of them , preserued to continue his church . And yet ( as I haue shewed you before cap. 4. ) in the mercie of God , when your Antichristian Synagogue florished most , in Bohemia , & other places , the Christians called Waldenses , were many , and has diuers assemblies , schools , churches and ministers . Why then ( say you ) haue you not , or do you not , run to them , that by them you may haue your ministers ordeined or confirmed , & if you haue , tell vs their names , that did it . I answere you , we haue thought it needles , seeing ( as I haue shewed ) otherwise both our former & later ministers , nearer home had both ordination , & confirmation , that well enough serued their turnes . Besides , I am sure you cannot be ignorant , but it hath ben an ordinary thing with God , when the ordinary ministers of the church , & consequently the outward face & countenan e thereof hath bene corrupted , & gon from the truth , & waies of the lord , to raise extraordinarily prophets and others to seeke & procure the reformation thereof , as it appeareth by raising vp from time to time Prophets amongst the Israelites , in the ruins and corruptions of his church , who should haue had wrong offred , if they should not haue bene receiued as the Lords ministers , vntill either they could get ordinary admission of the Prelates then , to reform whose corruptions they were sent , or vntil they could shew the names of some other prophets , that had ordinarily succeeded others , & also ordeined them . Which is the very case of the Lords faithful ministers , whom he hath vsed first in any nation without the ordinary calling of the daies immediatly going before , to detect & lay open the horrible corruptions thrust vpon the Church by the papacy . For they found , that the word of God was concealed & hid from the people , & that insteede thereof , they were fed with the inuentions and traditions of men ; y the honour that was due to God alone was turned vnto men & vnto images ; that the bloud of Christ was ineffect troden vnderfoot , in that so many by waies were sought to atteine to heauen by , besides Christ : that the sacrament of his body & bloud was turned into grosse Idolatry , & the vse quite peruerted . To be short , they found al the holy scripture prophaned & poisoned which the Popes glosses , & false interpretations . These things therfore being thus , & the lord reueling vnto them his truth , because the time was come , that Antichrist must be detected , the lord gaue vnto them the spirit of courage and boldnes , first to notifie these corruptions to the Prelates of your church , and to craue at their hands the reformation thereof : but finding that that would not be , because sathan will not be against himselfe . Ma. 12. what were they to do els , but according to that the God gaue them , and the places they had in vniuersities & in the church , to proceede to call the people yet from those errors to the truth . When fire shal take hold of a city , or the enimy scale the wal in the night , if the least burgesse shall giue an alarum , yea if it be but a stranger ( the watchman sleeping that should giue warning ) no man would stand trifling in demanding by what title he did it , but streight he will run to the water and to the wals , and laie to his hands to preuent the mischiefe , & thanke him that gaue the warning . And yet when the men , we speake of , giue notice of a greater danger , though it be as necessary to listen vnto them , & to be warned by them , as the saluation of mens soules is : yet they cannot finde this wisdome and thankfulnes in men . It should seeme by your standing thus precisely vpon the necessity of visible succession , & ordinary imposition of hands in them , the god shal send to teach men , or els they may not be heard : that either you haue not red , or els that you greatly dissemble your knowlege , that God hath vsed the ministry of diuers persons , that haue wanted those , to conuert nations , to lay the foundation of churches , & to doe very much good . For Ruffinus in his Eccl. Hist. 1. booke , and c. 10. & Theodoret in his 1. book , c. 23. report , that a captiue maiden did first kindle the light of the Gospell amongst the Iberians : who being the meanes first to conuert the Queene , the Queene conuerted the King , & he without any orders ( as you call them ) taught his people the Christian faith & so began the church there . It is also writen by Ruff. lib. 1● . c. 9. by Theodoret , in the 22. c. of his saied booke , by Nicep in his 8. book , c. 35 , that AEdesius and Frumentius brought thither being ●●yes , by Meropius a philosoper , and there taken and preserued aliue when he and the rest of his company were slain , growing after into good credit and authority there , were the first means of the sowing of the seede of the Gospell amongst the Barbarians in the further India , to the profession and exercises whereof , especially Frumentius , and that not onely after that by Athanasius he was ordained there bishop , but before euer by any he was ordeined either minister or bishop , was a notable & effectuall meanes both to excite marchantes that came thither , and to drawe the people of that countrey it selfe . Moreouer Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history reporteth , in his sixte booke and 19. Chapter , that Origen taught publikely before he had ordination , certaine bishops being present : which when Demetrius Alexandrinus obiected as a fault , to Alexander bishop of Hierusalem , and to Theoclistus bishop of Caesarea , they defended themselues by alleadging diuers such famous examples , as namely of Euelpis , Paulinus and Theodorus , which in like sort had preached without the ordinary ordination . Yea , read Nicephorus 2 booke and 25. Chapter , and he will tell you , that vnder Constantius , Antonie the heremite taught at Alexandria , and that vnder Valens at Antioch Aphraatis Flauianus & Iulianus being then but monkes ( who in those dayes were not reckoned amongst Clarkes at all , for vnto Gregories time they were not accounted Clarkes ) did publickely preach and confute heretiques . And yet these examples I alleadge not , that I would be authour to anie , when an ordinarie calling may be had , to despise that , and to take vpon them that function of the Ministrie without that lawfull ordinary calling : for that were to disturbe the peace of the Church , and to open a gap to much disorder and inconuenience : but to this end , to make it appear , that the Church of God in former ancient times , hath not so precisely and curiously stood vpon these points , of visible succession and ordination , for the iustifying of ones preaching the Gospel at al times , and in all places , as you doe . For ( doubtles ) there haue beene times and yet may be , as after that great apostasie spoken of 2. Thes. 2. & in other great ruines of the Church , when it hath and may please the Lord to call men extraordinarily to this worke , without either immediate , locall or personall succession going before ; who ( as long as they preach but the trueth , and otherwise the times be so corrupt , that of them that haue authority ordinarily to call men to that busines , such rather should be shut out generally , then let into the ministrie ) are to be receiued , heard , and listened vnto , as such whom the Lord of his mercy hath extraordinarily called himselfe .

The XIIII . Chapter .

CAluin doeth alleadge to vs , that the Apostles doe saie , that no bodie ought to take vpon him the honour of the high priesthoode , except he be called to it as Aaron was , meaning by that to conclude , that of our owne authority we haue vsurped the dignitie of Priesthood . a a And ●et to no purpose . We haue answered him at large of our vocation , by the succession of Pastours ioined with the imposition of handes . I doe demande of him , or of his , if they can make any true answere to the like obiection . You doe laie to our charge the all liues of our Popes and Bishops , and the naughtinesse that you pretend to finde in our Preachers : but all those inuectiues serue to no other purpose , but to shew how you keepe b b Nay you shall haue the bell , both for that , & for prophane iering & scoffing . a learned schoole of railing , the which preheminence we doe yeeld to you without any debate or processe , for ye maie attribute that vnto your selues as your owne by right , insteede of the imposition of hands , which ye want . But in one thing to my iudgment you are greatlie ouerseene , and that is this : c c When you obserue this lawe your selues , we wil learn of you . Why doe ye not fill both sides of your booke , in the one , you set forth at large without omitting anie point of their ill doings , al the naughtie lives of our Pastours and Bishops : but the other sides of the leaues are emptie ; you should haue writen on them the holie liues of your Ministers , succeeding one after an other this thousand and fiue hundred yeares . When the Popes Bonifacius & Gregorius did gouerne ill their Seats at Rome , d d I haue sufficiently answered this , cap. 4. which were the good and holie ministers that did their duetie at Geneua ? When our Doctours did preach against God in times past , in what part or vnder what sign were your Ministers lodged , that did then preach the pure word of the Lord ? e e Reasoned like your selues , as though the Apostles neuer lawfully hid themselues , from the fury of the persecuters . if they did hide themselues , they did not folow the pure word of the Lord , the which you say is necessarie to know the true & faithful beleeuers . For Christ doeth saie , Mat. 10. that hee that shal deny him before men , him wil he deny before his father in heauen . And S. Paul doth saie : Ro. 10. f f And so haue ours all wayes in due time and place , though to the losse of thousands of their liues , done . that with the hart one doth beleeue to iustice , & with the mouth one must confes to saluation . g g This is but your cuckowes song , conteining neither trueth , nor honesty . But to saie the truth , your religion was not then found out , & the Grandfathers , & great Grandfathers of Caluin had neuer dreampt of the heresies , that now their reformed childe hath set so newly abroach . And therefore thinke it not strange , if that those people that are not light headed , send you to preach in new found landes , as one that hath here at home , giuen manifestlie iudgement against himselfe , h h Are you not ashamed to ly so impudently , and to reason so foolishly ? confessing , as wee haue alleadged aboue , that the Church of God hath vsed the imposition of hands , yours hath not done so : and therefore it doeth follow , that it is not of God , & that , that doeth follow consequentlie , is , that it is of the deuil . For we know , that you allow i i Neither would you , but that your belly is your God , and that you mind earthly things : vnto which purposes that doctrine serueth you fitly . no purgatorie , I mean , no meane betwene them both .

The XIIII . Chapter .

HOw you haue answered Caluin , and proued your vocation to be of God , by that which now the reader hath heard both parts say , let him iudge . Our answere to the like demande I haue giuen you Chap. 9. when you first called for it . But hauing demanded this now againe of vs , insteed of pursuing your demand ( as one that had streight forgotten what you saied ) you are in hand againe with our saying to your charge , your popes & bishops il liues , with twise or thrise you were in hand withal before , where you haue your ful answer . Herein ( you say ) in railing you giue vs the preeminence : but you do so , but in words ; for indeed & trueth ( as al your late books , fraught with nothing more , then this kinde of Rhetoricke , to bring the seruants of God vniustly into hatred , doe proue ) none can go beyond you herein . And as for that which we say of your Popes & bishops , your own storie-writers , and manifest experience doe iustifie to be true , & therfore cannot iustly be counted railing . But you find fault with vs , that hauing writen the lewd liues of your bishops & Popes on the one side of the leafe , we set not down on the other side in the meane time the succession of those good ones , that we had . This law you nether haue , nor can alwaies obserue your selfe . For though you haue had many good Popes & bishops , yet a great while your good ones haue bene as hard to finde as cole-black swans . And yet you please your selfe , and your frends , that take pleasure in your giving , & scoffing , in asking vs , when your Popes behaued themselues il at Rome , who were the holy doctors at Geneua , & when your doctors preached against God , vnder what signe our ministers lodged ? al this kind of Rhetorick of yours is grounded vpon a false principle , namely , that the Church and ministers thereof haue bene , & alwaies must be so visible , as that in al times demonstration may be made thereof , contrary to these often alleadged prophecies , 2. Thess. 2. Reu. 12. & 17. And the thing that deceiueth you , & nourisheth in you this errour is , that you expound the places of scripture , which are vttered concerning the continuance & spiritual beauty of the church of the elect , the true heauenly Hierusalem & spouse of Christ : as spoken of the continuance of particuler Churches , or of the outward order & state of the Church militant onely : and that you either wilfully , or otherwise cannot distinguish , betwixt the being and continuing of the Church and her pastors , and the maner of their being and continuing ; and so you construe those places , that proue her being , and their continuing , as though therupon followed your maner of visible and apparent being also , as though there were no being or continuing of the Church : but in your maner . Whereas in Israel in Ahabs time , you haue heard , both the Church and ministers therof ther continued , in that , euen in that kingdome Obadiah had hid 100 prophets , and God had reserued vnto himselfe 7000. that had not bowed their knees to Baal , & yet not in your maner . For Eliah was not able to make such demonstration thereof , who they were , and where they were , as you require of vs , for he thought himselfe alone . 1. King . 18. & 19.

O but you , very like a diuine , proue out of Mat. 10. & Ro. 10. because Christ hath saied , him that denieth me before men , wil I deny before my heauenly father : and Paul requireth aswel confession with the mouth to saluation , as beleife with the hart to iustification ; that therefore they could not be faithful beleeuers , because they did hide themselues . As though euery one were a denier of Christ , that hideth himselfe from the fury of the persecutour ? Or as though none confesse with their mouth to saluation , that so hide themselues ? What think you then of the 100 prophetes before named ? And of Eliah himselfe , who ( as it appeareth in those places ) hid themselues from Ahab and Iesebels furie ? Haue you forgotten , that the same Christ saieth in the same Chap: to his Apostles , If they persecute you in one City , flie to another ? And that the same Paul himselfe did sundry times by hiding himselfe from the hands of his persecutours , saue his life ? As you may read Act. 17. and elswhere . Who though he were assured in a vision by reuelation from God , that with safety of life hee should come to testifie of Christ and his Gospel at Rome , yet refused not al good and lawful means to haue himselfe conueied away , and so to escape the hands of his bloudy persecutors , the Iewes ; which had solemnly bound themselues with an oath , that they would neither eat nor drinke , til they had killed him . Act. 23.11.12 . Your diuinity is not so simple , I thinke , but that you vnderstand , that as long as a Christian carieth that minde and purpose , that wheresoeuer he is , he will be ready boldly to yeeld a sound confession of his faith , and therefore when he is called thereunto , and iustly occasioned , is ready to perfourme that purpose of his , and doeth it indeed ; that man cannot bee saied to deny Christ , or not to confesse him with his mouth , though by flying and hiding himselfe , as long as he may lawfully , he seeke to keepe himselfe for the further good of Gods Church , out of the handes of his persecutours . And therefore you were much to blame by thus wresting of these places of Scriptures to seeke to abuse your Reader .

But our Religion ( you say ) was not found out then , and Caluins great grandfather had not once dreamed of his Religion : and therefore no maruell , though they could not be found , that were the ministers of our Church and Religion : and no maruell , that they that are not light headed , send vs to preach in new found landes &c. This in effect you haue often saied , and ( if that will serue ) you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter . But this being indeede the question , whereupon the determination of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth , namely , whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion , taught by Christ and his Apostles : for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words , and neuer to go about soundly to proue , that it is not , is but too too childish and ridiculous . Well may you in your owne conceite , and in the opinion of the simple silly reader , seeme herein to haue done a great act , but in the iudgement of any of meane witte & capacity , howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man , yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion , to fight in this greatest question , onely with bare wordes .

The XV. Chapter .

YOV will saie to me , that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission , but a a Though in such times & estates of the Church , wherein Luther and some others liued , there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him , yet you know well enough , that both he and others , whose calling you most cal in question , were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men . yours is extraordinary , as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament , whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises : and that euen so God hath inspired you and others , of your sect to the like effect , that is to say , to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters : and by this , as farre as I can see , ye are commissaries of God in his behalfe : & yee maie saie wel with S. Paul ( although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen ) * * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man , but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ . But what would you saie , if we should speake against it , as a number doe , and that to reuenge this quarell , we should write against your commission , we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ , if we would come to pleade the matter , which is this : c* c* This argument , the contrariety betwixt your religion & Christs , being as it is , proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God . He that is of God , doeth obey *b *b Joh. 6. b b Iohn the eight you would haue saied . the word of God : but you doe not obey the word of God ; therefore yee are not of God . I knowe that you will denie the Minor , and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it . Christ doeth saie : * * Mat. 22. a a In this particuler respect , witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes , none were euer more ●uil●y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars , then you . Giue vnto Cesar that , that appertaineth to Cesar : and to God that , that appertaineth to God . That is to saie , to speake familierlie , giue Geneua vnto his Lord , and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop . Now , you doe not obeie this commandement , & therefore , as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God , you haue prouided your selfe a new master . And because we would not haue some to thinke , that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you , or , that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter : b b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth , that your owne sauage dealings , contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey , hath caused the st●rs there : and now of late you haue reuiued them , by open treason and rebellion . I am sure , that all the world doeth know , that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate , as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy : In that that appertaineth to the Church , is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left , where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine ? where haue ye forgotten that , that Saint Paul doth saie , which is : * * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent ? What right haue you , to come to reape other mens corne ? Doe not you remember that , that Tertullian doeth write against your elders , that did persecute the catholique Church , against whom he saieth in his c c This Tertullian would surely haue saied of you , ● he had liued in these daies . booke de praescriptione haereticorum : What are yee , and from whence doe yee come ? By what right , O Marcian , doest thou cut downe my woode ? Why doest thou , O Appelles , remoue my landes ? And a little after he sayeth : the place is mine , I haue beene thus long time in possession , and before thee I haue good title and euidence , to maintaine my right , of those , to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritance from the Apostles . &c. Our church of France , which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church , might with good cause saie vnto you the like . And I praie , what would you answere ? You cannot denie , but that d d If this were true , as it is false that your religion were a thousand yeares olde , yet being no elder , it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least , to be the true religion . aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne , that the faith in which yee were baptized , and the which you haue falselie denied , was planted , I doe not saie , in this onelie kingdome of France , but ouer all Christendome . If you pretende any right to the contrarie , shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e e This we can , & haue often done already . ancient doctours , and after come to demande it , as I haue saied before : I meane , that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment , which you haue vsurped in manie places , with too great libertie of conscience , and licence to doe euill , which is the verie death of the soule , f f S. Augustines words are these , quae est pejor mors anima , quam libertas erro●is ? as Saint Austine doeth saie . Epist. 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate , then there will be more apparence of the matter , that ye are sent to preach the true word of God , then there is now . But is this estate that yee are , although that God had giuen you commission ( the which he neuer thought ) he would haue called it backe , because of your noble actes . Theodosius and g g Areadius I think you ment . Arcades , which in olde time were Emperours of Rome ( L. si quis in tantam . cod . vnde vi . ) did establish or make al Edict , that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force , or to seeke by the waie of violence ( without staying for the sentence of the Iudge ) h h Euen thus you , and your predecessours got possession of your places , & therefore by this law , you haue but right to be thrust out , as you haue beene . to get possession of his own from another man , yea , although the other had no right to it , he should not onelie lose the possession , but likewise the propertie : but if it were found , that he that did enter by force , had no right to the Mannor , hee should not only be depriued of it , but moreouer he shoulde be condemned to giue as much more of his own vnto him , against whom he had vsed the force , as the thing was valued at , that he sought to vsurpe . If one should cal you , my masters the new reformed Gospellers , to such a reckoning , ye might wel packe vp your pipes , and transport your fidelie into another countreie , for you should haue no other remedie , but to runne awaie with the goods , and preach pouertie .

The XV. Chapter .

WHat argument you speake of , it is hard to tell seeing as yet ( for any thing that I can perceiue ) you vttered nothing since you entered into this matter , to call vs to an account of our vocation , worthie the name of an argument . Indeed that which losely you haue vttered here and there against it , of the necessity of succession of persons , and of imposition of handes ( as you imagine ) we must say indeede , take place in an ordinary calling , and not alwaies in an extraordinary . But by your speach it should seeme , you had relation to some thing , which you took to be an argument , set downe in the last Chapter before this ; where in effect you haue saied nothing , but onely in your scoffing maner found fault with vs , because in setting downe the ill liues of your prelates , on the one side of the leafe , we set not downe on the other side the good liues than of our own : which how it should seeme to containe an argument , either against ordinary , or extraordinary vocation , I see not . For neither they that are called the one way or the other ; are alwaies bound to obserue that order . But to let your pitiful logicke go , and to passe ouer your scoffing in calling vs Gods Commissaries not worthy an answere , let vs see , if you haue hit of any better argument here to proue our ministers not to haue beene extraordinarily by God stirred , vp to correct the superstitious liues , and doctrine of the papistes Idolaters ( as you saie , we tearme them ) then as yet you haue brought to disproue their ordinary calling . If we would come to plead this matter with you ( you say ) you would aide your selues herein against vs with a Syllogisme of Christ , Iohn . 8. which is this . Hee that is of God doeth obey the word of God : but you doe not obey the word of God , therefore ye are not of God . You suppose that we will denie your minor , and therefore in that God commaundeth Matthew . 22. to giue vnto Cesar , that which is Cesars , and vnto God that which is Gods : and our ministers doe neither of these , but the contrary , in deteyning Geneua from the Duke of Sauoy , and in being the causes of the stirres in France , and spoiling your bishops and Priests of their liuings , you thinke that proueth so against them , that the conclusion must needs follow . Doe you thinke in earnest , that whosoeuer can be proued in anie one thing to disobey God , streight thereupon it followeth , that his commission or calling is not of God ? What man euer was there either ordinarilie or extraordinarilie called to anie office ( except the man Christ Iesus ) but in some one thing or other , at one time or other , one waie or other hee did not obey God ? Seeing that all men are sinners , and there is not one that can truely say , his heart and handes haue alwaies beene free from sinne , and transgression of the law of God . Take Christes words in this sence , and so none , no not hee amongst you , that is fullest of his workes of Supererogation shall euer escape this conclusion . If you had viewed the text , you should haue perceiued , that Christ vseth that speach against the Scribes and Pharises , who blasphemed the doctrine of the Messias , and would abide neither to heare , nor to obey it , and not generallie against all that in anie thing are found at anie time disobedient to God of ignorance , or infirmitie . And yet though he had ment so , and it were graunted , that euery man in that hee offendeth , or sinneth , is not therein of God : yet thereupon it followeth not , that the same man therefore cannot be a man , that hath his commission or calling of God . Dauid was not of God , in that he committed adultery with Bershebah , and murdered Vrias , yet euen then hee had a commission of God , and a calling to bee King ouer his people . And therefore though you could proue these thinges to be true that you charge our ministers withal , and though also it were graunted , that therein they haue done ill : yet thereupon necessarily it doeth not follow , that therefore they were not extraordinarily stirred vp by God , to correct your sins , and abhominations , For Iehu , whom God vndoubtedly stirred vp to chastise the house of Ahab , and to correct the Idolatrous priestes of Baal , euen with an extraordinarie zeale 2. King . 9. & 10. yet he departed not from the sins of Ieroboam , the son of Nebat , which made Israell to sinne , as there it appeareth . Againe , it is strange that you should lay these as faults , yea as such faults to our ministers charge , as that therefore they cannot be sent of God , when as not onely it is a receiued , taught & printed doctrine amongst you in the 5. Chapter of D. Allines defence of catholiques , but also such as hath from time to time beene , and yet is most monstrously practised euen amongst your Popes ( which pretend to haue the best , highest , and largest commission from God of all other ministers ) not onely that they may deteine dukedomes from the right owners , but also depose Princes , and Emperours , translate their kingdomes and crownes to whom they please , and make warre against them both by forreiners , and their owne subiects , for the aduancement of their religion , when and how it pleaseth them . For this your doctrine and practise considered , if your argument for the causes by you alleadged ( supposing that they were true ) haue any force against our ministers , it hath ten times asmuch force against yours , whose chiefest meane of late to establish and continue your kingdome , hath beene ( as the stories of all countries for this 600. or 700. yeares at the least doe make it most manifest ) by force and subtlety to bend and frame Kings and their kingdomes , either to be at your deuotion , or els to make a spoile of them , and their kingdomes for your selues and your frends . If therefore there had beene either shame or common discretion in you , you would neuer haue vsed this argument against vs , which maketh more strongly against your selues .

But in deed and trueth , the things , that you ground your argument vpon against vs , are partly vntrue , and partly maliciously wrested onely against our ministers . For neuer shall any of you be able to proue , that our ministers either are the authours of any wronge to the Duke of Sauoy , or that either they or their followers were the cause of the ciuil warres and troubles in France . If the Duke of Sauoy haue any such right to Geneua , as you pretend , and that it be withholden from him , it beeing a ciuil quarrell betwixt him and the states ciuil of those parts , why should it be layed to the charge of the ministers , who you cannot proue haue had any intermedling therein ? And as for the troubles in France , it appeareth by the stories thereof , that they haue proceeded first from your owne side , and that the doings of the protestant Princes there , haue oftentymes beene iustified , euen by the Kings owne edictes , and proclamations to haue beene done in all loialty : and that their warres haue beene but defensiue against the oppressions offered them ( contrary both to the ancient lawes , and present edictes of the Land ) by certayne ambitious persons , and not offensiue either to the Kings person , or dignity . And as for your Bishops and Priestes ( of whose being driuen from their lyuings by our men , you complayne so much ) in some sorte I confesse , thorow their occasion indeed , they haue beene dispossessed thereof , but that seditiously or tumultuously , by force they haue beene driuen there from by them , we vtterly deny . For in most places , they haue beene dispossessed thereof by mature deliberation , and consideration of the badnes of their titles thereunto , in solemne and lawfull assemblyes of the estates of the countries , by the lawfull authority of the same estats : as namely here with vs , in England , in Scotland , and in other kingdomes , where the Gospell is receiued and established by publique authority : and by the same authority orderly our men ( whose right thereunto in those assemblyes and Parliamentes haue beene founde to be the better ) haue beene put into possession thereof . And in other places , your Bishops and Priestes , as not able to stand in the presence of the light of the Gospell , when , will they , nill they , they sawe it would take place in their territories , forsooke their places , and left them to those that had more right thereunto , as for example , they did in Geneua , when the Gospell was first established there . And no marueile , though vpon the bare preaching of Gods trueth , and the entertainment thereof , many of your proude Bishops , and superstitious Priestes can stand no longer in their places . For when the Arke of God came in presence , Dagon could stand no longer , though his frends set him vp againe neuer so often ; yea the more they stroue , to haue him stand , the more dangerous fall got he , as you may read , 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be le●ted , but Christes saying will take place , and be verified one time or other , Euery plant , that my heauenly father hath not planted , shall be plucked vp by the rootes , Matth. 15.13 . whereupon it commeth indeed , that the proude prelates , of your Antichristian Hierarchie , hauing gotten vnto themselues titles and offices , through the ambitious and fond deuise of mens heads , which God neuer allowed to be for his house , must needes ( when God meaneth to reforme his house , and to establish his owne orders therein ) auaunte their roomes , and leaue their liuinges , for the Lordes true officers , and allowed seruantes indeede . Blame therefore the badnesse of your foundation and title , for leesing of your liuings , and nothing else .

You bid vs shew our euidence , that our right to them is better then yours , out of the ancient doctours . In the meane tyme you apply Tertullians wordes , in his booke of Prescription against heretiques against vs , and that of Paul , How shall they preach , vnlesse they bee sent ? Romans . 10. I answere you : not onely out of the ancient doctours , but out of the Canonicall Scriptures also , our ministers long ago haue made euident demonstration vnto the Princes and estates , that haue driuen you out of possession , and put them in , that their title to your liuings was good , and yours starke naught ; in that thereby they proued vnto them , their religion to be ancient , sound , and Apostolique , and yours to be but of a later Antichristian stampe : though you ( according to your maner ) say we cannot deny , but that your religion was planted throughout Christendome 1000. yeares , before wee were borne : which you shall neuer be able to proue true : for wee most constantly deny , both that antiquity , and vniuersality of it . And whensoeuer you will , wee are ready againe by the same Scriptures , and Doctours , to proue our right by the same argument to bee good and sound , and yours to be of no force : come to the triall of it , when , and as oft as you will . And therefore , seeing it is a thing most euident , that the reason why either you or we should pretend anie right to these , or any other liuinges of the Church , is , that we feede the Church with wholesome and sounde doctrine ; wee hauing oft proued ours so to be , by the grounds aforesaied , and you being neuer able to doe the like for yours , both Pauls saying , and Tertullians must rather take place against you , then vs . For I trust you will confesse , that there Paul accounteth none sent of God to preach , but those that preach the truth ; and questionles Tertullian vseth those words of his ( as by the wordes themselues , as they are set downe by you , it is euident ) not against those , that were able to proue their doctrine sounde by the Apostles writings , but against fantasticall heretiques , such as had taught , and did teach doctrine dissonant from the Scriptures , deuised vpon their owne heades . Against whom he being to prescribe , both by the Scriptures , and by the sounde testimony of those , that succeeded the Apostles vntill his tyme , he might lawfully and to good purpose say , what are yee , and from whence doe you come &c. And truely , when any man shall enter into a consideration of the state of the Church in Tertullians tyme , both in respect of doctrine and gouernment : and on the one side weigh the simplicity of the pastours and teachers then , and the agreement that their doctrine had with the writen word , and then therewith on the other side , compareth the more then princely prelacy and Hierarchie , that hath beene these many yeares , and yet is in yours , ioyned with doctrine not only manifoldly differing , but in a number of points , directly contrarying the word writen : hee shall be enforced to thinke , that if Tertullian were aliue againe , and sawe notwithstanding how confidently you ruffle , as though all were yours , and no man had any right to any thing , but your selues ; he would more vehemently vse these words here recited by you , against your prelates , then euer he did against Marcion , Apelles , or any other heretique in his time .

But you are so liberall vnto vs , as to tell vs , that though wee had commission from God , yet he would haue called it backe , euen for our noble actes and deedes , in driuing you out of possession , and taking possession , though of our own , before the sentence of the iudge was giuen . Which you proue by a law of Theodosius and Arcades Emperours of Rome , made to forbid men , vnder paine of leesing their right , not to seeke to recouer possession of their own , by violence & force . Wherunto I answere you , that graunt vs so much ( which of right you must ) and for all your tale and penall Statute of Theodosius and Arcades , we shall be to good for you . For first , what other Iudges sentence were wee to expect , but theirs , that we had on our side alreadie ? Secondly , there hath beene no such tumultuous , or disorderly violence vsed by vs ( as I haue shewed before ) as their lawe forbiddeth , to recouer our owne from you : and then you must vnderstand , that these Emperours prescribe their lawe , to bridle men , and not to binde God from recouering his inheritance to the vse of his seruants , from the hands of Antichristian vsurpers , euen by force and violence , if otherwise they will not yeeld . To proue therefore , that God would haue called in our commission , though he had graunted it , rather then hee would haue suffred vs to execute it , in violent driuing you out of possession , to recouer our owne right , you had neede to haue vsed a stronger reason , then taken from the edict of Emperours . If these thinges had beene well considered before of you , you might haue spared your iest , wherewith you conclude this Chapter well enough , and so rather haue staied your pipes your selfe , then in such sorte , as you haue , blowen so ioyfully in token of triumph , before any likelihoode of victory . The vanity and falshoode of your bragge , for the continuance of your religion aboue one thousand yeares , before we were borne , not onely throughout France , but also throughout all Christendome , I haue fully and at large discouered in the later ende of the preface , & in my answer to your 4.16 . & 39. ca. & therfore in this place I haue saied no more then I haue , referring the reader for a full answere thereunto both here , and wheresoeuer else it is repeated by you , vnto these places . And though S. Augustine say , as you write , that liberty and licence of conscience to doe euil , is the death of the soule : yet that toucheth vs nothing at al , for doing what we may , by lawfull & ordinary means , to dispossesse your Antichristian prelats of the places of gouernment ouer Christs Church , and of the maintenance due to his true & faithful pastors . For so to deale , is but orderly to recouer Gods inheritance out of the hands of his enemies , & to possesse them thereof , to whom it is due , and therefore in so doing , there is neither liberty nor licence to doe euil practised . But rather you , in crauing the restoring of you thereunto , and quiet continuance therein still , craue both liberty & licence , without controlement to go on in sacrilegious enioying that , which at no hand appertaines to such as you be .

The XVI . Chapter .

FOR a a This is vntrue , for wee alleage both our lawful calling , & shew the right that we & not you , haue to those places and maintenance , for they were appointed for true Pastours , and not for wolues & foxes , as your Prelates haue beene a great while . your defence you alleage no other reason , but your good zeale , and your ardent Apostolicall affection , the which hath mooued you , to sowe this seede of sedition . You saie , that the fielde is great , and there are few good reapers , but if you marke that , that doeth followe afterward , and to take the counsaile of the wise : Christ doeth not commaunde therefore , that euerie one should take his sickle , and go , and cut downe other mens corne . But he saieth : * b * b Mat. 15. b b Mat. 9. It is but your ill luck , scarce to quote one of ten rightly . Pray the master of the worke , to the end , that he sende more workemen to his vine . He doeth teach vs , that if we see anie estate out of order , we should praie to God to redresse it : And in the meane time we ought to correct and amend our owne liues : for if euerie man were for himselfe , God would bee for vs all . c c That is a good means , but doth it thereupon follow , that no other meanes is good and lawfull to that ende , and in that case ? Yet , notwithstanding this , it is not reasonable , that vnder the colour of a good zeale , a seruant shoulde take in hand an act of so great importaunce , without expresse commandement of his master , as it is saied . But now that wee are come to talke of your good zeale ( if it please you ) let vs know , d d Neither haue we . if those ardent flames of charitie haue so inflamed you , that you haue ouerthrowen the chaires of the negligent Pastours and Bishops , and in their roomes ye haue collocated your ministers in euerie place , where yee could beare anie swaie , as it doeth appeare in manie townes and Cities in this Realme . I doe not doubt , but that you will doe the best that yee can to doe the like with the rest , e e This is but a malitious surmise enforced to make vs odious , contrary both to your conscience and experience : but indeede it is plaine by proofe , that thus you dea●e with Kings and Queenes , if they be ●o● of your sect and humor . I meane as well temporall as spirituall . For euen as God ( of whom yee speake so often ) doeth make no exception of persons : euen so you , that call your selues his Lieutenants will make no difference betweene the euill estates & the good . Euerie one doeth know , that the administration of iustice is verie honourable before God , and that there be manie in this vocation , that would not for anie thing doe anie wrong , vnto the widow and fatherlesse childe : & yet we see and know by experience , that there are manie others that without anie conscience , doe take bribes and offer wrong , both to the fatherlesse & to the widow , the which crimes are no lesse in that estate , then the carelesse liuing of the Bishops and Pastors . So that I thinke by this , that he that hath giuen you charge & power to turne the Bishops out of their seats , the Curats out of their benefices , and the Monkes and Abbots out of their Abbeys , because of their euill liuings : would likewise extende your commission , to put downe Lordes , Knightes , Iudges and Gentlemen , because of the corrupt liues of manie of them . And to make an ende of the reformation , your holie Ghost , and those zealous flames of the spirit , woulde mooue you to go a little higher : for there is nothing done , but the spirit may amend it . Against the great trees , striue the great windes ; and against great dignities great abuses . It is not vnknown to al men , that ther are good and godly Catholicke Princes and Kings , which are surelie to the people the great giftes of God : but likewise one cannot denie , but that there hath beene and are diuers ill Princes , that doe gouerne their people careleslie & without iustice . And if by chance your Gospell should fall into some kingdom , where the Prince were not so sage nor so wise , as you would haue him : in your conscience , what would you doe to him ? I thinke , that that verie zeale ( if you coulde ) that hath mooued you , vnder the colour of a reformed Gospell , to trouble so much a a This you attempt and practise flatly , all the world knoweth . Looke else to the course that your legers now in France take against their king . our state , would likewise commaunde you , to dispossesse those Kings , that doe abuse there owne kingdomes , euen aswell as to depriue those Bishoppes , that doe abuse their bishoprickes . But , O Lorde , what a Gospell is this , if it bee permitted , that the people shall call their Princes to accompt , or , that they maie correct their superiours , vnder the colour of a reformed Gospell , what seditions , troubles and warres shall wee see ouer all Christendome ? Wee shall see fulfilled , to our great harme , the prophecie of * * Cap. 3. Esay , who saieth : The people shall seeke to raise one against another , & euery one against his neighbour , the yong man shal disdaine the old , and the ignoble the noble &c : But what colour soeuer ye cloke your new Gospel withal , ye run far wide from him , that doeth command vs * * Rom. 13. to b b If this lesson had beene remembred of your Romish prelats , they neither could nor would haue beene so terrible to Kings and Emperours , as they haue beene of late . obeie al creatures for the loue of God . He doeth not regard , whether they doe acquite their charge or no , for the obedience of the inferiours is not limited by the duetie of the superiours . * * Rom. 13. Al power doeth come of God , saieth the Apostle , & he that resisteth that power , doeth resist the ordinance of God , and they that doe with saie it , acquire for themselues damnation for euer . c c The Lord in his word prescribeth obedience to ciuill magistrates , and to all such ministers and Chu ch officers , as are according to his ordinance , but if they be contrary to that , as your Popes be , hee saieth neuer a word for them , but many against them . He doeth make no distinction of persons , whither it be a Magistrate Ecclesiastical or temporal , whither it be a King or a Pope , a Bishop or a Lord , he doeth talke generally of al powers that are established by God , to make vs liue in peace & tranquility . God had not chosen of his good wil Caesar the Emperour of Rome to be king of Hierusalem , as he did chuse Saul , Dauid , Salomon & the rest , for of his owne ambition & vnsatiable cupidity , he had vsurped the kingdom appertaining to the house of Dauid : yet our Sauiour did commaund , that they should paie him tribute . Math. 22. The which commandement he himselfe did fulfill , to teach others obedience . God did likewise permit , that the wicked king Nabuchodonozor should destroie the kingdome of Hierusalem , to punish the wickednes of those , that dwelt in it . And although hee had inuaded the kingdome of Iuda , to the which he had no title nor right , yet doth God protest , that he gaue it him , & he willeth & doeth command , that they should obey him , euen as if he were the best Prince of the world . Beholde ( saieth God by the Prophet Ieremy , Cap. 27. ) you shall tell your Lordes , that I make the earth , the men , & the beastes that walke on the face of the earth , through my great strength and mighty arme , and I haue giuen it to whom it pleaseth me : And so now I haue giuen all these Lands and countreyes to Nabuchodonozor my seruant , king of Babylon . Besides this , I haue giuen him the beastes and the fields to serue him , his sonne , & his sonnes sonne , vntill the time of his earth come : also of him many people & great kings shal come , and shal ordaine , that the kingdome , or the people that shall not serue Nabuchodonozor king of Babylon , I wil visit that people ( saieth the Lord ) with the sword , pestilence , and hunger , vntil that I consume them in his hands . &c. But if you , my masters the new reformers of the Gospel , had beene in those daies , what would haue bridled your burning zeale ? d d No● for your Popes place and office that he challenges , is far more vnlawfull then Nabuchodonozors was . Could yee not with a little better cause report of Nobuchodonozor that , that ye report of the Pope : for who is that Nabuchodonozor , that we should submit our selues vnto him ? He is not a king , hee is not a tirant , hee is not an Emperour , but a robber , a cutthrote , more cruel then anie kinde of wilde beast . Is it not by him , that the Prophets haue represented the spoiler of nations ? For God , when he would cause * * Cap. 14. Esay e e Cujus contrarium verum est . to talke of the fall of Lucifer , he doeth discrie it vnder the person of Nabuchodonozor : then how wil you haue vs to submit our selues to be subiect vnto him , whom God doeth liken , not onelie to a deuill , but to the captaine of all the deuils of hell ? Manie causes doe persuade vs , not to obey him . First , his wicked & abhominable life . Secondly , our religion , for we beleeue in God , that created heauen & earth : but as for him , he is more than a worshipper of Idoles , for he is one that called himselfe a God . Thirdlie , he is not of the line of Dauid , by whom God had promised to establish his kingdome , for hee was a stranger , & such a one , as got into the kingdome by force , making himselfe a king , not by righteous election , but by violent compulsion , so that , considering althese things , ye might well , according to your zeale , haue found fault with his raigne : but God would haue stopped your mouthes , saying , as I haue writen aboue , I haue created all things , & I giue them to whom it pleaseth me . Or as he saieth in * * Cap. 34. Iob , It is I , that cause Hypocrits to raign to punish the sins of the people . Or as he saieth in the .4 . of Daniel , I haue the preheminence ouer the kingdomes of men , & I giue them to whom it pleaseth me . f f True , the authority being of it selfe lawful● , as Nabuchodonosors was , though he abused it , but it is not so when the office it selfe is vtterly vnlawfull , as your Pope is . And he that speaketh against him that is put in authoritie , although he be as euil as Nabuchodonozor , hee shall perish thorough the sword , famine , or pestilence , or that that is worse , through eternal death . These are the very words that God spake by the Prophet , & therefore saieth Christ , Come vnto me , & learn in my schoole , for I am humble and milde of heart , I haue obeyed Pylate , and Annas , & Cayphas , I haue suffered the sentence of death & haue beene nailed betweene two theeues , * * Math. 12. and I tooke it paciently for your sakes . Learne of me to be my disciples in the schoole of humility , and you shall finde rest in your spirits . The which true rest indeede is , for euerie man to examine diligently his owne conscience , and to commit to God the consciences of his superiours .

The XVI . Chapter .

NOT we , but your Romish Iesuites and seminary Priests , are the sowers of that seede of sedition , that you speake of ; neither is it we , but they and such like of your side , which when they haue so done , alleadge onely for their defence , their ardent and Apostolique zeale and affection to winne soules . This , in England and Ireland these late yeares , hath notoriously and very often beene found true in these , and questionlesse other kingdomes , where the Gospell is preached and established , haue and doe finde the like . For they go vp and downe secretly , vnder the pretence of reconciling men and women , into the bosom of their mother Church , to alienate their heartes from their naturall soueraigne , to the obedience of a forraine potentate , and so prepare them against the time when opportunity shal best serue , to procure the death or deposition of their lawfull Prince . And that thus without anie offence to God they maie doe , they perswade themselues by vertue of the Popes bull , in that therein they bee absolued from their alleageance vnto their home supreme magistrate , and are thereby also taught , that in furthering either his depriuation or death , they shal doe honourable , acceptable and meritorious seruice to the mother church of Rome . These thinges ( I say ) haue of late yeares too too often here in England , in open places of iudgement beene manifestly proued against your Iesuites and Popish Priestes , and therefore as traitours a number of them and their followers , haue beene most worthely executed . Which thinges being so euident as they are , great shame is it , that yet you should not blush to charge vs with these thinges , whereof yours are most famously guilty , and whereof truely you cannot conuict any of ours . You tell vs wee should haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest , to thrust forth more labourers thereinto ( as Christ hath commanded vs Math. 9. and not as you quote it Math. 15. ) and that in the meane time we should haue reformed our selues , and not haue taken vpon vs without some expresse commaundement from God , a matter of such importance , as the reformation of your estate is . According to this counsell of Christ , wee haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest , and he , in his mercy towardes his Church , hath heard our prayers , and wee hope will euery day more and more , to the full ouerthrowe of yours , and perfect consummation of ours . But that in the meane time , they , whose eies God hath opened to see the Babylonish confusion of yours , should there haue staied ( as you would haue had them ) vntill they had a further commission from God then already they had ( for so you must needes meane by that further commission or expresse commaundement , that you would haue had them first to haue had ) you can neuer proue . For they , whose ministrie it pleased God to vse to detect your Antichristian doings according to his worde 2. Thessal. 2. in these later daies were such , as namely , Wickliffe , Iohn Hus , and Luther , that had not onely the ordinary calling of those times to feede Gods people as pastours and doctours , but also they were such as God had blessed with rare and extraordinary giftes of knowledge and zeale , and therefore if they seeing the abhominations of your Synagogue , and the grosse blindenesse and errours that you still laboured to holde Gods people in , had contented themselues onely with praying vnto God for the redresse therof , & with reforming of themselues , & had not saied their hands & shoulders to the work , vsing the talents that God had bestowed vpon them , to his best aduantage , without a further new and expresse commaundement , then they had alreadie receiued in the writen word , should not they with the vnprofitable seruant Math. 25. haue had their wages ? They tooke not in hand to doe as they did ( as you would make your Reader beleeue ) onely vnder the colour of zeale , without expresse warrant from God their Lorde and master For beside their zeale and knowledge , by their callinges in that they were famous doctours and pastours in their times , they were bound by Gods expresse worde Esay 58.1 . Ezech. 33.6 . & 7. and in sundrie other places to doe , as they did . But to bring vs and our ministers into hatred , in this Chapter you labour to perswade your reader , that as of burning zeale they haue in many places dispossessed your Bishops and Priestes of their places , so as Gods Lieutenants , and as men voide of all partiality ( for thus tauntingly it pleaseth you to write ) they wil proceede against ciuill magistrates , both higher and lower in like maner , because many of them haue beene and be ( as you say ) as ill liuers and rather worse , then your Popish Prelates haue beene . Which to bee an vnlawfull thing and the cause of all confusion and horrible disorder , you bestowe a great deale of needelesse paines to proue , for it is a thing that wee teach and vrge in earnest , and you ( your practise to the contrary beeing so vsuall as it is considered ) onely in iest , and for a fashion teach it . But indeede this is the way , which the malicious and ancient enemies of Gods Church haue alwaies vsed , to disgrace the true seruants of God by , with the Kings and Princes of the world , and therefore you doe well in that you are nothing behinde them , in malice & enmity against Gods people , in that you studie also to be like them in this . Wee reade ( you know ) after the returne of Gods people out of their captiuitie in Babylon , when they beganne once to build and to go forward , either with Gods house in Hierusalem , or the walles of that City , alwaies this was one of the practises of their enemies to labour their discredit , to the hinderance of their worke , to accuse them to the Persian Kings , to intende therein sedition and rebellion against them . Ezr. 4. Nehem. 6. And it appeares Iohn 19. it was the principallest meanes , whereby the high Priest and the Iewes prouoked Pilate , to giue sentence against our Sauiour , that they tolde him , that he was not Caesars frend , if he deliuered him , thereby insinuating ( though in trueth hee had both payed tribute vnto Caesar , and had taught others both by example and word publickly , to yeelde vnto Caesar whatsoeuer was due vnto him Math. 16. & 22. and they of all other did most repine at Caesars iurisdiction ouer them and their cuntrey ) that hee was one whose doings and doctrine tended to the supplanting of Caesar . In like maner Act. 17. & 24. wee finde it one of the vsuall meanes , that the vnbeleeuing Iewes and other lewde people ( then when none in their hearts regarded Caesar and his authoritie lesse ) vsed to discredit the Apostles and their doctrine , to accuse them to be seditious and such as cared not for Caesars decrees . Neither did this practise die , when the common weale of the Iewes ceased , for it appeares in Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 1. and in Tertullians Apology in sundry places , that there was nothing more common in the primatiue Church , then to lay to the charge of the Christians , that they conspired amongst themselues against the state of the common weale , and the ciuill and supreme magistrates thereof . And therefore we can the more patiently abide this your dealing with vs , in that herein we see we are no otherwise dealt withall by you , then Gods people , Christ his Apostles , and other his faithfull seruants haue beene dealt withall in ancient time , by your predecessours . But the Lordes name be praised for it , howsoeuer it hath pleased you , in thus charging vs to intende the deposition and displacing of ciuill magistrates , to conforme your selues to the ancient enemies of Gods people , our doings in those places where our Religion hath beene longest settled , doeth euidently in the eies of the world acquite vs hereof . For in such places who seeeth not , that the ciuill magistrates togither with it haue alwaies , and yet doe honourably and quietly enioy their places and dignities ? Yea this wee dare bee bolde to say , that the Christian Kings , Princes and magistrates , that haue giuen best entertainment vnto it , finde by most manifest experience , that both it and the professours therof , haue better established them in their thrones , and more aduanced them in their dignities , then euer they were or could be by yours . For now they are absolute Kings and Princes according to their right , where as yours made them to hold their kingdomes , as the Popes vassals , and so but at the curtesie and deuotion of a forrainer , and of an intollerable proud and vnsatiable vsurping Prelate : and now their treasure is kept at home to the strengthening greatly of their kingdomes and dominions , which by your Romish Religion & gouernment , was woont a 1000. waies most insatiably in infinit quantity yearly , to the wonderfull weakning thereof , to be conueied to Rome . And whereas then by meanes of your auricular confession , the secrets of euery Prince where that was vsed , was often to the great peril of their states made knowen , to many & vndiscreet blabs & by them & their means to their forreine head the Pope , and so he was thereby alwaies the better inabled for the furtherance of his owne deuises , to preuent & crosse theirs : by the banishing of that Romish stratageme Princes counsels & secrets , are kept at home in secret as they should , to the great good of them & their cuntries . And lastly , by our Religion , according to the examples of Dauid , Salomon , Asa , Iehosaphat , Ezechias , Iosiah , Constantine & Theodosius , they are in possession of their full authority , to commande for Religion & in matters ecclesiastical , aswel their subiects of the clergy as the rest ; whereas by your Religion they were supreme gouerners vnder God for matters ciuil only , & had their cleargy so exempted from them and their iurisdiction , that howsoeuer they had their bodies in their kingdomes to enioy the promotions thereof , they had neither their bodies nor soules in further subiection , then would stand with the pleasure and profit of the forraine potentate the Pope . By meanes whereof , Anselme , Stephen Lanckton , Thomas Becket and sundry other proude prelates of this land , haue so stucke to the Pope , against their soueraigne kings at home here in England , that in comparison of the Pope , they haue set their King at naught , to the wonderfull trouble and disquiet of the whole land , as notoriously appeares in our Cronicles . Which things considered , I thinke you may long tell Princes , that you and your religion is frendly to them , and that we and ours is hurtful vnto them , before any of them , that be wise , beleeue you . Truely I cannot but wonder at your grosse hypocrisie in this Chapter , in that you are so earnest and busie , not onely to proue it vnlawful and monstrous , how bad soeuer they that be in authority be , to refuse to yeelde duety & submission vnto them , but also to lay to our charge , that we haue an intention , to place and displace ciuill magistrates at our pleasure . For I cannot perswade my selfe , that your skill in diuinity was so small , but you were resolued for all this , that the obedience and subiection taught in these places here quoted by you , or any where else in the scriptures , is not so infinite and absolute , as that thereby subiects are bound to doe whatsoeuer by higher powers , be it good or bad , they are commanded to doe . For how could it be possible , that a man of your place should forget the vsual limitation , in the Lord , or that you should not remember that God must be obeied before man . Neither yet can I thinke , that you were ignorant , but that the very same thing which here you charge vs with , as with a grieuous fault , hath bene and yet is openly practised , and taught publickly , to be very lawfull in your Church of Rome . Hereof I am sure D. Allen , a great man of your side , in his 5 Chapter of his defence of English catholicks , reckons vp in a great brauery and bragge , sundry Kings and Emperours by force deposed by the Pope . And indeed it appears most euidently in sundry Chronicles , that at their pleasure , a long time they haue most shamefully misused Christian Princes & potentates of the world . For though they were and are beholden to the Christian Roman Emperours , for their first aduancement , from the state of poore persecuted bishops , to the state of patriarches in these westerne parts , yet in processe of tyme , when the seat of the empire was remooued to Constantinople , & these westerne parts were gouerned by an exarch at Rauenna , they through the help of certaine Kings of the Lombards and others , in token of thankefulnesse to the ancient Emperours of Rome , quite extinguished their Empire and authority in these west parts . And in the ende , not contented with that , which they had incroched by the ruine of the Empire , through the helpe of the Goths , Vandals , Lombards & others ( seeking thereby their further aduancement ) Pope Zachary , about the yeare 743. found the meanes to cause Childericke then King of France , to bee deposed , and he set vp Pipine in his roome , whom he & his successour Stephen the 2. aduanced to the Empire , and therefore this Pipine , Charles the great and Lodouicke his sonne ( which three immediatly succeeded one another , in the new Empire , thus translated vnto them by the Pope ) to gratify the Pope for the same , they brought the Lombards and others , that before beganne to be somewhat to sausie with the Popes , vnder , and bestowed vpon his see , as Blondus & Volateran note , very many rich and great Ilands , cities , countries , shires , townes and prouinces , whereby he was mightely aduanced . Yet for all these great benefits receaued by the line of Pipine , when his successours began not to be pliable enough ( as they thought ) to their becke , in making warre against the Princes of Italy , which began to pinch them for their wrong-gotten goods , Gregorie the fifth about the yeare 1002. practiseth with the Germans , to bring the Empire to them , from the line of France , and so Otho was set vp Emperour . But when these German Emperours began to abridge them of their wil , and to resist their tyrannicall oppressions , then they laboured & practised by all meanes , to hamper them also : in so much that certaine it is , that Gregorie the 7. excommunicated Henry the 4. or as some write 3. about the year 1078. & gaue his empire to Rodolph , who missing of it & being slain , the Emperour yet to be reconciled with the Pope , waited 3. daies & 3. nights in the winter , with his wife and child at the gates of Canossus , and within the suburbes thereof , barefoote & barelegged , before he could come to the speech of the Pope , when he had obteined that , then he was faine to kisse his foote , and to yeelde vp his crowne into his hands , & to take it againe vpon such conditions , as it pleased him to prescribe , and yet his successour Pascalis raged against the same Emperour againe , & set vp his owne naturall sonne Henry , to depriue his father of his Empire . Who when he had got it , yet he was in the ende accursed and excommunicated by that Romish see , as his father had beene , and not preuailing sufficiently that way , the Saxons at last were set vp to warre against him and depose him . And thus they hauing hampered these two Henries , vnto Frederick Barbarossa came , which was about the yeare 1155. they did what they listed , who beganne somewhat againe to abridge them of their vsurped supremacy , and so did his sons sonne Frederick the 2. but in the ende Alexander the third , brought the necke of the first vnder his feete in S. Marks church in Venice , and Pope Adrian controlde him from holding his wrong stirrop , & excommunicated him for being so saucy , as to set his name in writing before his ; and the other was miserably vexed , by Honorius the 3. Gregory the 9. and Innocent the 4. For the first of these interdicted him , the second excommunicated him twise , & raised the Venetians against him ; and the third did in the end spoile him of his Empire , caused him to be poisoned , and at length strangled by one Māfredus . Innocent the 3. in the minority of Frederick the second , and before he was chosen Emperour , dealt in like sort with Philip and Otho the 4. placing them and displacing them at his pleasure . Frederick the seconds sonne called Conrade , and the next of his line also called Conradine were amongst them miserably abused : for the first of them was soone dispatched , they stirring vp against him the Lantgraue of Turing , who droue him into his kingdome of Naples , where he died of poison giuen him , as some write ; & the other claiming but the kingdome of Naples , after his death the matter was so handled ( they stirring vp Charles the French Kinges brother against him ) that both he & Frederick , Duke of Austria , were taken , imprisoned & in the end beheaded . Henry the 6. Frederick the firsts son , Pope Celestine the 3. crowned at Rome , but in such sort , that with his foote he put the croune vpon his head , & therewith he spurned it of againe . And the like that happened to Frederick had almost befallen Philip the French king , by Pope Boniface the 8. who because he could not haue whatsoeuer commodities he demaunded out of France , by his bull denounced sentence of deposition against the saied King Philip , and gaue the title thereof to one Albertus king of the Romans : ●●t for all the roaring of that bull , Philip kept his place still . Alexander the 3. that trode vpon Frederick the firsts necke at Venice , euen here in England so farre abused King Henry the 2. about Thomas Beckets death , that he caused him to go for penaunce barefoote in winter , with bleeding feete to his tombe . And Innocent the third caused King Iohn his sonne , after that 7. yeares he had resisted their supremacy & tyranny , by the meanes of his excommunications , indicements of his land , and encouraging of his subiects against him , to surrender his croune to the hands of his Legat Pandelphus , and so he continued fiue daies , before hee receiued it againe , and then was glad to take it in farme of him for a rent by indenture . Infinit be the villanies , that haue bene offered & done by that see to Emperours and Kings . For did not Gregory the 7. to the great iniury of the Empire , set vp Robert Wisard , and made him King of Sicilia and Duke of Capua ? Did not Pope Vrbane the second put downe Hugo an Earle in Italy , discharging his subiects from their oath and obedience vnto him ? Did not Pope Clement the fift , most despitefully cause Franciscus Dandalus , the Venetian embassadour , suing but for absolution of Venice from the Popes curse , to lie a long time first tied by the neck in a chaine vnder his table , like a dogge , before he would harken to his request . Furthermore Gelasius the second , brought the noble captaine Cintius so vnder , that he was glad lying prostrate before him , to kisse his feete , and by the yeare 1237 , the Pope Gregorie the 9. had so cursed king Henry the 3 : king here of England , that he was glad ( to currie fauour with him ) to receiue a Legat of his , called Cardinal Otho , meeting him at the sea side , & that in most lowly maner , bowing downe his head in low curtesie towards his knees . And though he yeelded wonderfull submission to the next Pope Innocent the 4. yet he tooke of one Dauid Prince of Northwales 500. marks by the yeare , to set him against the King of England , & exempted him & his welshmen , from their fealty which they had sworne vnto him before . Most intolerable were the exactions & commodities , that one way & other the Popes for themselues & their frends , had out of England in Henry the 2. king Iohns & Henry the thirds time : they exceeded often ( as it appeareth in the stories ) the ancient reuenues of the crowne , & wonderfully empouerished the land , & yet when these kings ( though in neuer so humble maner ) at any time , neuer so litle sought to stay these pillages & oppressions of the land , the Popes raged most extreamly against them : & did then what despite they could , vntill they had their will . Yea so intolerable hath beene their pride & insolency against kings & Emperors , that they haue brought them to lead their horses by the bridle , & to waite on them on foot like lackies , they riding like high & mighty princes ouer them , & they haue made them faine to please them withal , to hold them water & to serue at their table . And though their power bee not as it hath beene , yet 〈◊〉 ●lice and will , to trample Princes vnder their feete , is as 〈◊〉 as euer it was , and therefore not onely haue Pius 5. and Gregory the 13. by their cursed buls , roared against our gratious soueraigne Lady Queene Elizabeth that now is , thereby labouring her deposition , but also both secretely and openly , a number of waies they and their fauourits haue gone about both by open hostility and priuy conspiracies , to bring that their wicked purpose to passe , yea though it were , by the shedding of her innocent bloud . And so far are they of yet in this great light to be ashamed of murdring treacherously Christian Princes , whom otherwise they cannot frame to their fancies , that of very late yeares , by a most wicked varlet , whom they had persuaded , that therein he should doe a meritorious deede , they so dispatched the noble Prince of Orenge ; and since by the like persuasions , haue sought by one Parrie and others to effect the like against our soueraigne ; whom the Lorde for his Christes sake so long preserue , that she may see either the happy conuersion , or effectuall confusion of all her enemies . Now these thinges considered , and they beeing most true ( as from point to point , they are testified by your owne Cronicles ) if there had beene any shame in you , you would neuer haue gone about as you haue , to charge vs with your surmised intention to displace ciuill magistrates . Whereas you would seeme to strengthen this your malicious accusation , in that we haue displaced some of your Popish Bishops , Priestes , Monkes , and Friers , and refuse obedience and submission to your Popes : you must vnderstand that herein you commit two great and foule faults ; the first is , that you stretch the places here quoted by you , which teach indeed only obedience and submission to ciuill magistrates , and to lawfull ecclesiasticall persons , in the Lorde , as though therein and thereby God had aswell tied and bound al persons , to obedience and subiection , to your vnlawfull and Antichristian Prelates and cleargie , yea and that in such strict maner , as though it were vnlawfull how bad and wicked soeuer they and their commandements be , either to refuse to obey them , or to speake any hard word against them : your second fault is , that you take it , that there is no difference to be put betwixt your ecclesiasticall Prelacies , and the higher powers , that the scriptures in these places teach obedience and submission vnto : whereas indeede there is as great difference , as there is betwixt heauen and earth , and the ordinances of God and the vnlawfull deuises of man , betwixt the higher powers there spoken for , & the higher powers that you plead so much for . For the higher powers there spoken for , be such as though sometimes for iust causes knowen vnto God , they light in the hands of wicked and profane persons , yet of themselues are the lawfull ordinances of God , whereas the authority of your Popes & of other your Romish Prelates , whom we haue displaced , and refuse to submit our selues vnto , is vtterly vnlawful , and not onely without warrant from the lord in his word , but directly contrary to the same . For whereas Rom. 12. & Ephesians 4. the spirit of God hath reckoned vp all the ecclesiastical officers , which Christ the master of the house hath appointed , for the ful and perfect ordering therof , none of these of yours , whom we haue displaced and refuse to obey , are once remembred , & besides both contrary to Christ our sauiours expresse commandement , & Peters also Luk. 22.1 . Pet. 5. they take vpon them , as tyrannially as euer did any Princes of the nations , Lordship ouer Gods inheritance , & therfore by their proceedings we finding them to be very antichristian , both S. Pauls prophesie , that Antichrist shall be consumed by the spirit of Gods mouth 2. Thess. 2. and that flat commandement giuen vs from heauen Apoc. 18. to come out from Babylon , & to seperate our selues from her , doe assure vs , that lawfully wee may speake against them and their enormities , and not only refuse submission vnto them , but also to doe what we can to roote out such plants , which our heauenly father neuer planted , out of the earth . Wherefore fondly doe you go about to teach , out of the Prophet Ieremy , that as the Iewes were taught submission and obedience to Nabuchadnezzar , so we should learne thereby , to chamber our tongues against your Pope and other Prelates , & also quietly to submit our selues vnto them . For though he were a wicked tyrant , yet his authority it selfe was lawfull , and the ordinance of God ; and he came vnto his authority ouer the Iewes , by force of armes & conquest , which is an ordinary way , that God vseth to inuest Kings and Emperours , with such ciuill authority ouer nations and cuntries by , whereas the very authority it selfe of your Popes and other Prelates ( howsouer you confidently , and yet vntruly aduouch that S. Paul Rom. 13. is to bee vnderstoode , aswell to haue spoken that which he there speaketh of them , as of Kings & other lawfull magistracies & offices ) is as I haue proued vtterly vnlawful , and the meanes whereby they haue come thereunto , hath beene shameles wresting of the scriptures , fraud , deceit , treachery & maine force , which all are abhominable steps , for cleargy men to attaine vnto their offices by : neither would we , if we had liued vnder the persecuting Emperours of Rome , or vnder Nabuchadnezzar ( as you here insinuate ) haue refused to yeelde so far obedience and submission vnto them , in all quietnes , as we might , not disobeying the Lorde to obey them ; and further , neither the Iewes vnder the one , nor the Christians vnder the other , were bound : which obedience and submission to your Popes & Prelates will not serue your turne , for you would haue it yeelded vnto them without limitation , for otherwise they should not be obeyed , wherein you would fainest haue them obeyed . And therefore in your Canon law dist. 40. cap. Sipapa : it is enacted , that though your Popes should deale neuer so lewdly , both in respect of themselues , and in carying others by heaps vnto hell , yet none must be so presumptuous , as to aske them , why they doe so . Howbeit for the more full satisfying the Reader , and clearing our selues of this your slanderous accusation , of intending the displacing of ciuill magistrates , for their wicked liues , this further is the common and receaued doctrine amongst vs , concerning that point : that though Christian subiects may not disobey God , to obey their wicked commandements , yet they are rather patiently to suffer the penalties that they shal inflict vpon them , for their chusing rather to obey God then them , then to vse or to consent to the vsing of any forcible meanes to depose them . And this our practise hath plentifully made to appeare , to bee the common and receaued opinion in this case amongst vs . But whereas you would haue vs so humble and meeke ( by abusing and wresting Christes counsell giuen vs Mat. 11. ) as that we should obey Pilate , Annas and Caiphas , euen to the suffering of death , without once opening our lippes , to speake anie word of disgrace against them : I see the onely marke you shoote at is , that we should obey your Popes & Prelates in whatsoeuer they commande vs , or else that we should suffer them , without once muting against them , to make what hauocke of vs they list . For though you would seeme to plead for our obedience & submission to the ciuill magistrates , yet plainely you bewray , that so your Popes and Prelates might get this submission at our hands , you haue the thing you shoote at and care for . But to returne to your perswasion of vs to be meeke and humble &c. tell me in good earnest , did Christ at any time obey any of them you speake of , in any thing that was ill ? and was there not a necessity in regard of our redemption to suffer those things which he suffered , and as he suffered them at their hands ? what maketh this then , either to binde vs to obey the wicked & vngodly proceedings of your Popes and Prelates , wherein onely we refuse to listen vnto them , or needelesly to suffer those thinges at your hand , which lawfully we may auoide ? And I trust you are perswaded , that Christ himselfe that willed others to learne of him to be humble and meeke , that he neuer forgat that lesson himselfe . And yet if you reade Mat. 23. and Iohn the 8. you shall finde , that he comprising the high Priestes themselues within the compasse of his speech , aswell as other his inferiour malitious enemies , calleth them hypocrits , children of the Deuill &c. And the Prophets though they were not to learne of you , how to behaue them selues to higher powers , yet they did vse often very sharpe and bitter speeches , against the Princes and other rulers of their times ; an example whereof you haue Esay . 1.10 . in these wordes . Heare the word of the Lord O Princes of Sodom : hearken to the law of our God , O people of Gomorrah . But Paul you will say Act. 23. hauing called a wicked high Priest , that contrary to law tyrannously had commanded him to be smitten , painted wall , being admonished thereof , corrects himselfe , remembring that it is writen , thou shalt not raile or speake ill of the Prince , Ex. 22. saying I knew not that he was the high Priest . Indeede one of the high Priests clawbacks , who are alwaies ready to iustify their master , how vniustly soeuer he deale , and to controle Gods seruants for saying neuer so litle amisse of them , though therunto they be neuer so iustly prouoked , gaue him a check therefore , wherevpon it seemeth that Paul vpon the reason aforesaied excused himselfe , but indeede he did it in such sort , as that in trueth he giue , him a greater blow , though somewhat more couertly , then he had done before , in plainly shewing that , ( that dealing of his considered ) he knew him not to be the high Priest . But if this notwithstanding , you thinke still , that Paul would not giue any harde speech to such a Prelate , and iustifie it when he had done , consider a little what reckoning you make of Saint Peter , and then call to remembrance , what is writen Gal. 2. and you shall finde it cleare , that not onely he rebuked Peter openly at Antioch , but that also he iustifies that his owne doing therein , saying , that he did so because he went not with the right foote to the Gospell . And learne by these places not to be so dainty ouer your Popes and Prelates hereafter , but that if they doe lewdly , think it may well stand with that meekenes & humility , that Christ hath taught vs , that they be plainly as they deserue , tolde of their doings by vs . It is one thing to rafle of them , that be in lawful authority , and to backbite and depraue them ; and another thing it is , by way of instruction , admonition and reprehension , by plaine , iust and true tearms , to let them see their faults , so it be done in time and place conuenient , & in maner beseeming such an action . This later might the Iewes doe to Nabuchadnezzar notwithstanding Ieremies words , and the Christians vnder the heathen Emperours to them , and yet both keep within duety and loialty , but the former is that which is vnlawful to bee vsed against any , how bad soeuer he be , that is in place of lawfull magistracy or office . Finally , whereas you yet thinke scorne , that your Pope should bee worse then Nabuchadnezzar : and that therefore the Iewes might haue had far more iust exceptions against him , to free them from their obedience and submission to him , then we haue to free vs from subiection to your Popes , in trueth , therein you are very much deceiued . For first , his authority , as a King ouer them , was a power in it selfe lawful , though abused by him ; and yours ( as I haue shewed ) is flatly vnlawfull : and the Iewes were commanded subiection vnto him ; and we are commanded ( as I haue saied ) Reuel. 18. to forsake all communion with your Popish Antichristian kingdome . Your Popes for lewdnes of life , for manifold Idolatries , and blasphemies in Religion , and for want of right title to the dignity and office which they claime , doubtlesse will thorowly match him , & by how much their knowledge , in respect of the meanes they haue which he lackt , should be more then his : by so much these things in them , make them more intolerable , then the same could make him . And therefore these thinges considered , the obedience and submission which the Iews were enioyned to yeeld to Nabuchadnezzar , inferreth not the like to be due to your Popes and other your Romish Prelates .

The XVII . Chapter .

ANy man may easily perceiue by this discourse , that you haue no great reason , in saying that that you saie , and much lesse to doe that that you preach , I meane , to begin the reformation of the church by the waie of force , the which is a thing contrarie to all lawes diuine and humane , which defende * * Cod. vt nemo in suâ causâ jud. that a a This is your dealing flat , for your Pope is the party many waies most iustly charged by vs , & yet he wil be the supreme iudge in his owne cause . one should bee Iudge in his owne cause : and you will not onelie be a Iudge , but a partie , resembling in this him that gaue the blowe to Christ , vnto whom the answere was made , * * ᵇ Job . 15. b b Wel hit again , 15. for 18. If we haue done ill , c c This alwaies we are ready to doe . proue it before the Iudge , seeing that you are our accusers . If you saie , that God hath giuen you power , to knowe , to iudge , and to exempt , that is to saie , to driue vs out of our possession , and to cause the people to forsake that Religion , which they haue maintained d d It is a shame to repeate this bragge so often , and neuer to go about in all your booke , once to proue it , which you know is the maine question . these 1500. yeares & vpwards , shew vs your commission , with as sure a warrant , as so great a matter doeth require , seeing that you saie , that ye are sent extraordinarilie , as Moses was , to redeem the children of Israell out of the captiuity of Egypt , that is to say , according vnto your interpretation , the children of God , & the true faithful , out of the false Religion of the Papists , of that which the Pope , Antichrist , & worse than Pharao , is the head & master . Thus ye vse to expound & moralizate the figures of the olde Testament , in fauour of the Catholicke Church : yet is it so , that when God spake vnto you about so zealous a thing as this , yee forgate one thing , that doeth hinder greatlie your commission . You should haue shewed God , that the commission which he gaue you , was like to breede no lesse mischiefe amongst the Papists , than Moses did among the Aegyptians . For I e e And you know we haue iust cause , so to thinke and say . am sure ( if anie to trie you , would take your oath ) that you would sweare , that the Pope is as ill as Pharao , and we as hard hearted as the Aegyptians . Therefore , why did yee not demande of him , a rodde to conuert into a serpent , and to passe drie foote ouer the redde Sea ? f f Our vocation is ordinary , the message we haue olde and ancient , sufficiently confirmed by all the miracles cronicled in the Scriptures , and therefore this was needelesse . Why did yee not require at his hande , that it might please him to authorize his worde preached by your ministers with signes , miracles and tokens , as he did , when hee sent your fellowes the Apostles : seeing that you are Prophets , how commeth it to passe , that you haue not foreseene , that wee would not beleeue you : for who is hee ( although he were a Deuill ) that could not saie as much ? But we haue one disauowe , which God hath giuen to manie , which doe report , that they doe come from him , which doeth greatlie ouerthrowe the authoritie of your commission . g g These & many moe such like , doe so fitly paint your Prelates , & therefore it is , that we shun them as we doe . He doeth saie in the 14. of Hieremie , the Prophets preach falsely in my name , I haue not sent them , I haue not commaunded them , nor I haue not spoken vnto them : but they prophecie vnto you false visions , and naughty diuinations , to deceaue your heartes . And likewise in the 27. Chapter . I haue not sent them ( saieth the Lord God ) & they prophecie in my name falsely , to the intent I should forsake you , and that aswell you , as your prophets should perish . Item in the 29. Let not your Prophets seduce you , that are amongst you , nor your southsaiers , and doe not marke the dreames that yee dreame , for they doe prophecie falsely vnto you in my name , seeing that I haue not sent them , saieth the Lord . &c. So that , although it were true , that God hath sent you ( as it is false ) we might with a iust cause , pretend an excuse of ignorance , and to saie with great assurance that , that * * Gen 20. Abimilech saied vnto God , g g That you cannot , for you haue the Scriptures of the old and new Testament , if you had grace , to preserue you from such blindnes as yee shew , in refusing our doctrine , which is so warranted as it is there . where hee threatned , that he would kill him , because he kept Abrahams wife . O Lord God ( saied he ) would you kill a poore simple nation ? Shall it be saied , that we beleeue all those , that faine to come in your name ? haue not you commanded vs by the Apostle , * * 1. Ioh. 1. h h And therefore we are so bold as to try your popish spirit , by the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures . That we should not beleeue euery spirit : and that the Angell of darknes doeth transforme himselfe into an Angell of light ? Haue not you commanded to bee writen , that we should beware which way we take , and that such a waie doeth seeme good , the which notwithstanding doeth leade vnto damnation and perdition . If anie , saying that he is our Princes seruant , i i But we haue both , and vnlesse wee can proue we haue , beleeue vs not should come to demande a summe of monie in his masters name , and that hee had neither his hand nor his seale to warrant his demaund , would not wee send him awaie like a false merchant , fearing that he would deceaue vs ? then with greater reason , ought we to feare the committing of our faith , & the hope of our saluation into their hands , whom we know not , nor that cannot shew anie miracles , k k You were deceaued , these words be not there . to confirme their preaching , as the Apostles did . * * ᵏ Mat. 28. Qui confirmabant sermonem , sequentibus signis . That is , which did confirme their preaching , with signes or miracles following : l l Because there is not like reason and cause , as them . whi● doe not they say , as he saied , whose successours they professe to be , the signes of my commission & Apostleship haue beene accomplished among you , with signes and miracles . 2. Cor. 12.

The XVII . Chapter .

YOu proceede , charging vs to haue begon reformation by force , but as yet you haue not proued it . Vpon the beginning thereof , in these later daies , or not long after , wee graunt some stirres did arise in Germanie , France and other places , but therein it hath fallen out no otherwise with the renuing and reuiuing the Gospell of Christ , then it fell out with the Apostles when they beganne first to preach it . For we reade Act. 17.19 . that then stirres and tumults there were vsually raysed vp , by the enemies thereof to hinder the course thereof . And as long as it is not to bee lookt for , but that alwaies it will haue some enemies , what else can be hoped for , but when it springeth & beginneth to florish there wil be some stirres and contentions betwixt , the frendes and enemies thereof ? But as the Apostles when for these stirs sake they were charged to be seditious persons , might truely cleare them selues , in that not they , nor the professours of the Gospell were at anie time the authours thereof , but rather the enemies thereof : so may wee in this same case also doe . For either they haue begun of your selues , who haue thought by force to stoppe the course of the Gospell , or if any haue begon by others , as some did in Germanie by the Anabaptistes , our men haue beene the forwardest , by their writings and otherwise , to condemne their doings therein . And yet though it should haue fallen out , or it may bee proued that in some one place or other there haue beene since this late detection of Popish enormities , some disorderly tumults , and in the same some vnlawfull force vsed , wherewith some indiscreete persons of our side , may iustly bee charged , as long as it is a thing which we neither like , allow , nor iustify in them , what reason is there , that that should be obiected as matter of sufficient disgrace to all the rest of vs , and to our Religion also ? Is it impossible for such thinges , to fall out sometimes amongst them that professe Gods trueth , euen in well ordered common weales ? Then truely of al men in the world , the men of your profession will bee proued to haue least acquaintance with Gods trueth . For neuer were there more broiles , hoate contentions and force more vsed to compasse your wils , then haue beene amongst you : euery seuerall order of Religious men , euery abbey , euery Cathedrall Church ( if the stories were searched ) ministers vnto vs infinite demonstration , that there hath nothing beene more vsuall amongst you . O the lamentable and most sauage cruell dealing that hath beene vsed with great approbation by men of your side , to bring the poore Indians by force in subiection vnto you . And what extreame force and crueltie hath beene vsed of late yeares , to subdue the poore Christians of Cabriers Merindoll , and other places thereabout , and to roote out the professours of the Gospell , and their fauourers in France ? I am perswaded that the Turks neuer vsed more faithles , tyrannical and monstrous dealings , then the stories and the euidence of the thing , declares you haue vsed against these . And therefore it being so vsuall a thing with you , as it is , to promote your Religion by force , of all men you are the vnfittest to charge others with that , as with a fault , which you account so laudable in your selues . And yet as though you had saied so much against vs for this , as that thereupon it must needs appeare to euery man , that we haue neither reason of our saying or doing , you further charge vs , that herein ( in seeking namely the reformation of your Church ) we haue taken vpon vs , contrary to all laws both diuine and humane , being also a party , to be our owne iudge ; wherein you say vntruely of vs , for we alwaies haue beene contented , to submit both our sayings and doings , to the iudgement of the Lord himselfe , speaking vnto vs in the writen word , and by the same we haue had our sayings and doings often examined , and tried to be sound and lawfull in nationall and prouinciall Synodes , before we haue attempted the reformation you speake of . And secondly , herein you charge vs as you did before , with that which you your selues are openly guilty of . For though your Pope be the speciall party accused by vs , yet in all matters in question betwixt you and vs , you wil haue him to be the supreme iudge , and so the question being betwixt you & vs , whither you be the church or we , and whither you hold the trueth or we , no other triall will you admit , but that we must be iudged by him , whither it be so or no. Wherein you deale , as if the felon at the bar , should refuse all other triall , but to be tried by the principall in that felony , whither he be guilty or no. Now wheras yet in this our dealing , you would resemble vs to him , that gaue Christ a blow &c. Your errour is manifold , & therein it seemeth either your negligence was much , or that your wits were benummed . For where the story you allude vnto is . Ioh. 18. it is quoted in your booke Iohn . 15. & neither doe you hit of Christs words , in rehearsing the answere to him that smote him , nor yet is there any reason or similitude made to appeare , betwixt our dealing in seeking to reform your Church , & that fellow . Christs answer was this , if I haue euill spoken , beare witnesse if the euill , but if I haue well spoken , why smitest thou me ? And you set downe his answere thus , if we haue done il , proue it before the iudge , seeing that you are our accusers : & as for the resemblance betwixt him that smote Christ and vs , you shew not wherein it is , neither can I gesse wherein you ment it . But indeed your dealing with vs considered , he carieth a liuely resemblance of a number of you , whose property it is , to bring vs for our holy profession before your high priest , and his chaplaines , and then if we chance to answere boldly for our own defence as Christ did ( though neuer so directly to the purpose ) to checke vs , and strike vs , as he did our sauiour , for your great prelates may not so be answered . But perhaps you wil say , that the words that you set downe , containe your answere to vs , when we checke you for your doings : why then set you them downe , as the answere made by Christ to him that smote him ? And if the words be taken as your answere to vs ( meaning therein such a iudge , as either the Pope or one of his sworne men ) that we should be drawen before such iudges by your owne law here alleaged , is against reason , for they can be no competent iudges , because they themselues are principall parties . Our accusation of you we are alwaies ready to proue , before the Lord of heauen and earth , and before any other indifferent iudges , by such deponents and witnesses , as will not bee corrupted either by you or vs , namely by the prophets and Apostles speaking without all partiality , in the Canonical scriptures . Exemption from this iudgement we neuer sought nor will , and if your religion flye this kinde of triall and iudgement , God hath giuen vs power euen thereby to iudge , that you are such as ought to be driuen from possession of such a corrupt religion , that dare not shew the face in this court of iudgment , because then it knoweth , it should bee foyled . But yet to holde your Clyents in some lyking of your religion , you once againe confidently bragge , that it is of one thousand fiue hundred yeares continuance and vpwards , and therefore you require vs that would disswade you therefrom , to shew our commission sealed and confirmed , as so great a matter doeth require , and as Moses his was , by miracles : which in this case to be as necessary for vs , as it was for him , you striue to proue in the rest of this Chapter , and that otherwise you are not to beleeue vs . Wherefore because all this you require at our handes , and thinke you may doe it stil only vpon this supposition , that your religion is thus ancient , as you bragge . First , let vs consider of that point , and then proceede to the rest which you infer thereupon . Herein , that which I haue writen already both in the later ende of the preface and in my answere to your 4 Chapter , doeth sufficiently discouer the shameles follie and vanity of this your brag : howbeit because I perceiue what you lacke in trueth in this matter , your purpose is to make vp with the setting a stout countenance vpon it : once againe , I will take the paines to strip your Church and religion of this visard of antiquity , which done for al your lewd brags , I doubt not , but that both the one and the other shal be found a youngling & a new vpstart in comparison of that , which you pretend . First therfore , to begin withal , in that the greeke Churches ( which quite brake of communion with you , in the time of Gregory the 9 , in the yeare 1230 , which is now not aboue 360. yeares ago ) haue not yet allowed the masse , to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and dead , do minister no priuate masses either in the Church or else where , reserue not after the ministration of this sacrament any part thereof , nor deny the ministring thereof vnder both kindes to any communicant : in that also they neuer yet coulde be brought , to allow of the supremacy of your Pope , nor of your doctrines of transubstantiation , extreame vnction , purgatory & of forbidding their ministers the vse of lawful mariage ( in which points now a great part of your religion consists ) euen thereby it may be perceiued , that none of these points , as they are now taught by you , were receiued for catholicke 360. years ago . For if when they brake of communion from you , these had then beene so accounted and taken , doubtles they had then bene acquainted with these , and so by al likelihood , had held them , as they doe other things which with you they had learned before , vnto this day . I am not ignorant that not long after in Gregory the tenthes tyme , in a councell at Lyons , and after that agayne , in the Florentine councell , labour was made to bring them to communion & vnion with you againe , and that in the first , Michael Paleologus ( so the better to compasse helpe to keepe his kingdome , which with brutish murder he had got ) and some other of his frends , assented vnto a decree to that end ; and that in the other likewise , Iohannes Paleologus Emperour of Constantinople , and the patriarch there , with some other greeke bishops , amongst whom was Bessarion , assented , in some sort to your Popes title and your doctrin of purgatory . But withal , good reader , I must tel thee , that I finde , the consenting of the first , was so misliked of the rest of the bishops of Grecia , when they came home , that the stories report , that euen therefore they held them , that so assented , alwaies after , as persons cut of from the communion of their Church , and when they died , denyed them the honour of buriall . And that likewise the same stories report , not onely that in the later by no meanes they coulde be brought to allow of transubstantiation , though there they were vrged much thereunto , but that for their yeelding in the other they were so resisted , when they came at home by one Marcus the bishop of Ephesus , and other bishops , that they were brought to recant and to declare merely voide al that they had done there : yea moreouer it is recorded in an ancient register , of the church of Herford , that in 29. articles there also set down , the greek Church differeth quite from your Roman church . And therfore hereby it should seeme , that these points of popery which it hath not yet receiued , were either not at all , or at least not vniuersally receaued , before the foresaied breach , and that therfore these haue not 400 years continuance on their backs , which comes far short of your account of 1500. years . Further euident and apparent proofes there are to make it vtterly without all question , that both these & many other points of the Roman religion , that now is , are far younger then your reckoning . For before the councel of Constance in the yeare 1414. we finde not the ministering the communion in both kinds publickly forbid to the common cōmunicāt . And in the councel of Basil it was permitted againe in the year 1431. to the Bohemians to receiue vnder both kinds , & so there , from that day to this , many haue vsed to doe . Certaine it is ( as it appeares in the first Epistle of Cyprian ) that in his time , with was 260. years after christ , it was by him accounted absurd to deny the cup to any communicant , & de consecratione dist. 2. it is recorded , that Gelasius who was a bishop of Rome about the yeare 500 , made a flat decree to binde al men to receiue in both kinds , saying Either let him , that receiueth receiue both or neither , because the diuision of one mistery cannot bee without sacrilege , and yet now your Popes & their councels , which you hold cannot erre , condemne it for a cursed heresie , to holde it to be needful , that this sacrament should be receiued of al communicants in both kinds . And it appeares in the same distinction , Cap. peracta ; That Pope Calixt ( in the yeare 223 ) made a flat lawe contrary to your receiued vse now , of your priests receuing al alone . For there he decrees that consecration being done , al that wil not be shut from the church should communicate ; for so ( saith he ) the apostles taught & the fashion them of the Roman church was . How is it them , that your Roman Church that now is , contrary to this ancient decree , thus grounded both vpon the authority of the Apostles , & the practise then of that church , in this point now practiseth the quite contrary ? Transubstantiation the very life of your masse , your owne doctor Tonstal in his book of the sacrament , & diuers other of your frends as I haue shewed before Cap. 11. confesse was not enacted & decreed for a catholicke truth amongst your selues , before Innocent the 3 time , 1215 in the Lateran councel , which was after the greeke church was gone from you , & so it was rather the decree of a particuler assembly , then of the Catholique Church , and therefore no marueile though the Greekes reiect this your councel and decree . Your owne schoole-men , Canonists and Croniclers , as Durand , Albertus , Gabriel Biel , Innocentius , Vrspergensis and others , shew from point to point and from peece to peece , who inuented & deuised your masse , withall the ceremonies thereof , as also Polidor in his 5. booke and 9. Chapter of the inuentours of things , and Platina in the liues of the Popes , and namely , in the life of Pope Sixtus the first . It was so long a licking before it came to the shape it now hath , and was patched together , as it appeares in these and other your owne writers , by so many Popes so long distant one from an other in time , that it would require a good pretty long treatise , to set downe the seuerall shreds and morselles thereof , with the authours and deuisers of them . Which things considered , it is the likest a beggers cloake , consisting of an infinite sort of patches , at sundry times and of sundry colours sowed and cobled together , that can be . The masse now vsed in your church , commonly called S. Gregories masse was first receaued and established in the time of Pope Adrian 780. years after Christ ( at the least , for others account it more ) as witnesseth Durand , Nauclere , & Iacobus de voragine in the life of Gregorie the first , for before that , S. Ambrose Lyturgie was much in vse . And the last of these authours reports , that when with much a do , Adrian had got it to bee decreede in a councell , that S. Gregories masse should be vniuersally vsed , and Charles the Emperour had laboured both by faire and foule meanes , to cause the same decree to bee executed , and yet many would hardly be drawen from the vse of Saint Ambroses , one Eugenius seing this stir about it , gaue the Pope this graue aduise , that the bookes of both the Lyturgies should be layed vpon the altar of S. Peter , and that the Church dores should carefully be shut and sealed with the signets of sundry Bishops , and that then they should giue themselues all that night to earnest prayer , that God by some euident signe , might shew which of them he would haue to be vsed : whose counsell being in euery point followed , in the next morning , when they went into the church , they found ( as saieth the story ) onely S. Ambrose booke opened and lying vpon the altar , and the leaues of the other scattered all ouer the church , wherevpon Adrian the Pope , like a profound interpreter of visions , gathers that it was the Lords meaning thereby to shew , that S. Ambroses Lyturgy might well be vsed vpon his owne altar at Millan , but the other should be vsed generally ouer all churches , and thus the credit of Saint Gregories masse was first established . Howbeit before transubstantiation came in , which was not , as I haue sayed , before the yeare 1215 , it was nothing the minion that it hath beene since . And yet euen then , it was not growen to her highest credit , for about fiue yeares after it was , ere that adoration or eleuation of the host was decreed , for then first Honorius the 3 enacted that ; and the hosts holiday , commonly called Corpus Christi day , was not made before Pope Vrbans tyme , in the year 1260. as witnesseth Polydor in his 6 booke and 8 Chapter of the inuentours of things . Whereupon it may euidently appeare , that the masse as it is now , is but a very youngling , and one of her father the Popes youngest daughters . And as for latin seruice her companion , it was first brought into England , by one Theodorus sent hither by Pope Vitellian , about the yeare 657. And to proceede to other pointes of Popery ( as it is well knowen ) it is an other most principall point of your religion , to attribute vnto the Pope that vniuersal supremacy ouer al bishops and ouer the whole Church of Christ , that you doe , for you haue made it an article vnder payne of damnation to be receiued , that there is no saluation , but vnder his obedience and within his communion , as it is set downe by Boniface the 8 , in his extrauagant de maioritate & obedientiâ . And yet in the 6 Canon of the Nicene councell , holden about the yeare 330. ( as some count ) it appeares , that then the Roman bishop had his bounds and limits prescribed him , aswell as the other patriarches . And the generall councell of Calcedon , and the 6. generall councell , held at Constantinople , determined Can. 36. that the bishop of that see should haue equall priueledges with the bishop of old Rome , 680 yeares after Christ . And appeales to Rome were forbidden , vnder paine of excommunication , in the councel of Mileuitan . Cap. 22. and of Africke Cap. 92. Further yet your owne proper and late councels of Constance and Basil , haue not long ago greatly curtolled the supremacy , that now the Pope chalength , for they haue decreed , that the authority of a general councel is so farre aboue him , that thereby he may be condemned and deposed . And though now according to your Canon Dist. 40. cap. si papa , your popes wil be lawles , & may not by any be controled , though be lead people headlong by heaps to hel , as it is there set downe : yet I read that in Pope Symachus tyme , about the yeare 500. after Christ , that many bishops did accuse him then to Theodoricus king of the Gothes , because he took vpon him to be 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that is , one whose wil should be a law . And in the councel of Carthage the th●● , there was a decree made Cap. 26. against sundry ambitious 〈◊〉 chalenged euen then , as it should seeme , to be due vnto the bishop● of Rome , as that they should not be called Prince of Priestes , 〈…〉 priest , but bishops of the first see . And howsoeuer now Ho●ius , Belarmine and others , reckon the title of ecumenicall or vniuersall bishop amongst the due and iust titles of the Pope , yet it is flatly set downe , as a thing vnlawful , and is forbid in the 99. distinct●●● , 〈◊〉 by the iudgment of Pelagius , bishop of Rome in the yeare 58●● by Gregory the first his successor . And it is wel known , that Gregory very directly and often condemned this title both in Iohn bishop of Constantinople , and in al other bishops , himselfe and the bishops of the see of Rome not excepted , as it is euident , in his 4 book of Epistles , Epi. 30 , 38.88 . & in his 9 book , Ep. 45. Your set daies of fasting you learned of Montanus ; & your placing so necessary a point of fasting in abstinence from flesh , of the Manichees ; as it appears in Aug. 74. Epist. wherein you are as deepe as either they or any other heretickes euer were , witnes your owne Dur. li. 6. c. de ieiuniis . For he there giueth this as a reason , why in fasting flesh is rather abstained from then fish , because al flesh was accursed , and not al fish in the daies of Noe. And compare Augustines description of the Manichees fasts with yours , in his 2 book de moribus Manicheorum Cap. 13. and you shal finde them marueilous like . Further what holines soeuer you imagin to be in your forbidding your cleargy mariage , and how ancient soeuer you would perswade the simple and ignorant ; that that order is , any man may see that reads Augustines foresaied 74 Epistle , & his 18 Chapter of his second booke de moribus Manicheorum , as the Manichees & Tatimists learned to condemne mariage , as they did of the Ethnicks ( as Clemens Alexandrinus thinketh they did Stromat . 3 ) so you haue learned this your kind of forbidding your cleargy ( as you cal them ) marriage of them . For there it appears , that they allowed it amongst their ordinary hearers , & forbad it onely to those that studied perfection , and were the chosen ones to the ministery amongst them , euen as you do . But whatsoeuer either you or they say , or haue sayed to the contrary , for the iustifying of this your antichristian deuise , as it is most cleare to any that readeth but the old testament , that mariage was as allowable to the Lords priests then , and as honourable accounted both of God and good men , so 〈◊〉 lesse clearly doeth it appeare in the new 1. Cor. 9. & 1. Tim. 3. that the lyke opinion was retained both of the honorablenes and lawfulnesse thereof , for Apostles , Euangelists , and al other ministers of the Lord , insomuch that Paul in the first of these places ( howsoeuer you papists seeking to hide his playne meaning , disorder his words & read a woman , a sister ; for a sister , a wife ) sheweth not onely , how the brethren of the Lord and Cephas caried their Christian wiues vp and down with them , but that also it was lawful for them so to due , & to take maintenance where they preached , for themselues & theirs , & that he & Barnabas if they listed might lawfully euen doe so also . Insomuch that S. Paul . 1. Tim. 4 , doeth flatly aduouch the denial or forbidding therof , not only as the Manichees & some other heretikes haue forbidden it , as a filthy & vnlawful estate in it selfe ( with yet if your own report be true ) was Siritius opinion dist. 82 , & is stil Gregory Martins , discou. ca. 11. ) but euen as the wisest of you , defend now the denying of it to your cleargy , vnder the pretence of more holines in abstaining ther from , for a plaine doctrine of deuils . For especially he speaketh of them there , that should in the later daies doe so , in hypocrisie . And therfore the better altogither to preserue men from this vanity & impiety , he pronounces mariage to be honourable & the mariage bed , to be vndefiled , He. 13. And therfore Ignatius in his Epist. to the Philadelphians saith flatly , that to say the contrary commeth of the diuel , & vpon this ground Dionysius Corinthiacus labours to perswade Pynitus the bishop of the Gnosians ( as we read Eus. l. 4. ca. 22. ) that he did not impose an vnnecessary & too heauy a burden of single life vpon the brethren , yea euen your own Gratian could not dissemble or deny , but that 300. years after Christ , the councel of Gangra pronounced him accursed the would or should more refuse the ministry of one that is maried , them of one vnmaried , & the also there is an ancient Canon fathered vpon the Apostles to the same end dist. 28. Indeed it should seem that in Clement Alexandrinus time which was about 200 year after Christ , that there were some that then began to vrge the single life of the ministers , but he cals such proud braggers & such as God wil resist , shewing them by many examples , reasons & places of scripture the lawfulnes both of the mariage of such & of the vse therof , & that the denying it them , was the plain doctrin of deuils spoken against by Paul 1. Tim. 4. Stro. 3. yet it was attempted againe , as we read it was often before that particulerly , so in the first councell of Nice generally , to bee established , that men once entred into the ministery , might neither marry , nor yet accompany with their wyues maried before : but there also it was so withstoode by one Paplinutius , that they gaue ouer that their attempt . And consequently , by that 〈◊〉 ●●●cel , that which ( as some write ) was decreed before in the 〈◊〉 councels of Elybert and Arles to the contrary , was so repea●●● 〈◊〉 weakned , that thence forth it was thereby left free vnto ministers to accompany with their lawfull wiues , as to other men . 〈…〉 the sixt general councel held at Constantinople , whatsoeuer had any where before that beene attempted to the contrary , which was 680. yeares after Christ , we finde restraint of their mariage so condemned , that there it is decreed , that it should be lawful for them to marrie , and to enioy the company of their wiues , and that whosoeuer would go about to debar them thereof , should be deposed . And in making of this decree , the fathers in that councell assembled , doe say , that therein they haue followed the Apostles sincere Canons , and the constitutions of holy men ( howsoeuer Epiphanius lib. 2. tom. 1. contrary to all trueth of the story , writeth , that where such are admitted , the sincere Canons be not kept ) and indeed this decree stands in force , & euer since vnto this day hath bene obserued in al the Churches vnder the patriarches of Constantinople , Hierusalem , Alexandria , Antioch & vnder Presbyter Iohannes in AEthiopia , which are of far larger compasse , then euer was the Roman Church in these westerne partes . Indeed it seemeth by an Epistle write●●s some think , by one Hulderick ; as others suppose , by one Volusianus , vnto Pope Nicolas , to disswade him from restraining the cleargy of lawfull mariage , that Gregory and some others before him ( as , if we may beleeue the popish reporters , Siricius ) in the Roman see had beene busie in making decrees , to restraine them , but yet that Gregory vpon the finding on a time of 6000 infantes heades , in certaine ponds , repented thereof and reuoked the same , saying , it is better they should marry , than to giue such occasion of murder ; it should seeme that the Epistle was writen rather to Nicolas the second , than to Nicolas the first , about the yeare 867. for then they beganne to be somewhat busie about the restraining of them . Howbeit they were so resisted herein , that before Pope Hildebrands tyme , about the yeare 1070 , or rather Pope Calixts time , in the year 1120 , this restraint of theirs tooke no great place . For Aventinus in historia Boiorum lib. 5. speaking of a councell of Hildebrand , saieth , that in that time priests openly had wiues , and begat children as other Christians , as appeareth , saieth he , by sundry instruments , wherein their wiues are specified as witnesses , and that called , honesto vocabulo presbyterissae , that is , by an honest name eldrisses . And the 9 Canon of the 2. counsell of Turon held in the tyme of Pope Pelagius the first as witnesseth Caranza , and the 14 as writeth Surius tom. 2. conc . And Henry Huntington in his 7 booke writeth that Anselme archbishop of Canterbury in his time which was about the yeare 1106. forbad the priests of England mariage ( as he saieth ) not forbid them before : whereupon as he noteth within short time such grieuous complaints were brought vnto him of their Sodomitry , that he was enforced to make a law against that sin : yet in the making of these lawes he dealt so fauorably , that whereas to liue in mariage with a lawfull wife was punished with depriuation , one conuict of Sodomitry was onely to be accursed with their ordinary excommunication , vntill he repented & got absolution , which was easie enough to come by . And thus in the iudgement of God most iustly , they forsaking like Hypocrites the natural and lawful vse of mariage , they were giuen ouer ( as Paul speaketh of the reprobate gentiles Rom. 1. ) to their owne filthy affections , in that there was nothing more common then filthy fornication & adultery amongst them , or that in their cloysters , they hauing left the natural vse of the woman , one of them lusted towards another , and man with man wrought filthines , and so , as he there saieth , receiued in themselues such recompence of their errour as was meet . These things considered , no maruel , though your gloser vpon the 84 distinction be inforced to confesse that olim & tempore praeterito , that is , that in ancient and former times they were maried : For by these testimonies and by that also which is set downe in that distinction it sufficiently appeares , that your fashion herein is but of late deuised and publickly receiued amongst your own selues . Your doctrine also of free wil , howsoeuer it was then fauoured of the Pelagian heretiques , yet it appears , that it was in S. Augustines time asmuch misliked of him , & of the tru church of Christ , as it is now of vs . For he saieth , what is there so much presumed of the power of nature , it is wounded , maimed , vexed & lost , it stands need of true confession , & not of a false defence , de natura & gratia Cap. 53. Further , if you wil take pains to read him , de gratia & libero arbitro ca. 17. de dogmatibus ecclesiae cap 32. de bono perseuerantiae ca. 6. and in his 11. sermon de verbis apostoli , you shal finde him most directly to teach , that of our own selues there is nothing but sin , and that to doe wel , & wil wel , commeth wholy of God , which he of his free grace workes in vs , and that neuer any of vs , did more plainely confute and oppugne your doctrine herein , then he doth . And you know , that he lyued 400. yeares after Christ and more . In lyke sort your doctrine of iustyfication , in part by mans owne merits and satisfactions , howsoeuer of ancient tyme the scribes and pharises troubled the Apostolicke Churches with the lyke doctrine , yet was it a doctrine abhorred of the Church of Christ , as blasphemous against the omnisufficient merits , & satisfaction of Christ Iesus , our Lord & sauiour , & ours of iustification freely and fully , soly and wholy by fayth onely in Christ allowed and receiued , as sound trueth , and doctrine in that poynt , not onely in the Apostles tymes ( as it appears Ro. 3. Gal. 2. & 5. ) but also for many 100. years after , euen vnto very late dayes . For proofe wherof let any man read Origen vpon the 3. & 6. of the Romans , Ambrose vpon the 3 of the Romans also . Hierom in his booke against the Pelagians , vpon the 4 to the Romans , & vpon the first and 2. to the Gala. Aug. de fide & operibus ca. 22. vpon the 88 Psa. and in his 22 Chap. of his Manuell : and Hilary in his 8 Canon vpon Mathew . See also Basils 51. hom. de humilitate , Paulinus 58. Epistle to Saint August . amongst Augustines Epistles ; Chrysostome vpon the third to the Romans ; Theodoret vpon the same Chapter ; Gregory Nazianzens twenty two oration , and Ruffinus his exposition of the Creed : & you shal not onely finde al these fathers in al these places , as flatly to teach free & ful iustification & saluation , to come by faith in Christ alone , without our works at al concurring , as any helping cause therunto , as any of vs now doe : but also further , I can & doe assure you , that who so wil vouchsafe to take the paines , to read Bernards 23 , 61 and 62 Sermons of the Canticles , & his Sermon the 15 of the Psalme , Qui habitat , and his seuenty seuen Epistle , he shal finde , that he ( though he were aboue 1100 years after Christ ) was of the same minde . For in these places he plainly confesses , that he for his saluation rested onely vpon the merits of Christ , and not vpon his owne at all , counting mans merite to bee nothing else , but to trust onely in Christ and in Gods mercy , withall plainly testifiyng , that he hoped to haue his , solâ fide , by faith onely in Christ Iesus . Yea your owne Thomas Aquine confessed with vs , that we are iustified by fayth instrumentally , and that no vertue inherent in vs , can be of the forme or essence of our iustification . Rom. 4 Ephesians . 2 , and in sundry other places of his commentaries vpon Pauls Epistles . And Sadolet , vpon the Epistle to the Romans acknowledged ( doubtles forced therunto by the power of this trueth ) that Abraham attulit tantùm fidem , non sua opera , that Abraham brought onely faith , & not his owne works ; & againe he saieth , quantum quisque affert de suâ iustitiâ , tantum detrahit de diuinâ beneficentiâ , that is , how much ( in this respect ) a man bringeth of his owne righteousnesse , so much he pulleth from Gods bountifulnesse . How far likewise the strength of this trueth conquered your great Champion Piggius , with griefe Ruard Tapper , and others of your side haue noted , & writen against him for it . For in the controuersie of iustification , fol. 61. he in playn tearms with vs confesses , si formaliter & propriè loquamur , nec fide nec charitate nostrâ iustificamur'sed vnâ Dei in Christo iustitiâ , vnâ Christi nobis communicatâ iustitia : that is , if we speak formally & properly , we are iustified neither by faith nor by our charity , but by the only righteousnes of God in Christ : by the onely righteousnes of Christ communicated vnto vs . And hauing with vs before in the controuersie , proued & confessed fol. 46. y al men , euen the most righteous , if they should be iudged of God , or esteemed according to their own righteousnes , by merit and desert , they were to be accursed and condemned , not onely for the imperfection of our best righteousnes , but also for playne vnrighteousnes to be found in the best : he proceeds & concluds fol. 47. that our righteousnes & hope of saluation with God , consisteth in the free forgiuenes of our sins in Christ , & in that the perfect righteousnes of Christ is imputed vnto vs , hauing communion with him . And to make his meaning more plain , that he meaneth not by the righteousnes of God or Christ , any inherent righteousnes of ours , wrought in vs that beleeue , by the spirit of Christ , as our late Iesuites doe , but the righteousnes that was & is inherent in Christ : he saieth , that the righteousnes of Christ , wherof he would be vnderstood in this case to speak , is his obedience whereby he fulfilled his fathers wil in al things , and he expounds or declares the nature of the faith , wherof the Apostle speaketh , Rom. 3. saying , We are iustified freely by his grace , by the redemption that is in Christ Iesus , whom he hath appointed to be our attonement maker by his bloud : to bee fiduciam & cōfidentiā in sanguine eius , fol. 48. to be a trust and confidence in his bloud , thereby alone to be saued : so stil aduouching fol. 49. his onely righteousnes imputed vnto vs , to be the whereby we shal stand & be accounted righteous before God , and him therefore to be vnicum & solidum , the alone & sound foundation of our saluation . To conclude therefore this poynt , I say with Iunilius Aphricanus ( who liued Anno. 440. ) lib. 3. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , si quis in Christum crediderit remissis peccatis , potest per solam fidem seruari , that is , if any beleeue in Christ , his sinnes being forgiuen him , he may by fayth alone be saued : and with Augustine vpon the 31. Psalm . si vis esse alienus a gratia , iacta merita tua : if thou wilt be voide of grace , them boast of thy merits . Your doctrine of auricular confession , of praying to Saints , & for the dead , I haue at large in my answere to your thirty seuen Chapter , shewed to be but new doctrines , and of far later stampe then you pretend , and in like maner elsewhere I haue shewed diuers other points of your religion to be , in this aunswere of mine . And I thinke you are not ignoraunt , that that worthy bishop , bishop Iewel , here in England , bishop of Salisbury , hath most confidently protested , that for 600. years after Christ , you haue no sound ground for 25. articles ( whereof the most of them , are about your masse , whereof you glory most ) which protestation or chalenge of his , he hath hitherto defended , sufficiently against all your obiections to the contrary . And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge to the contrary , so much of your religion , as we count it popish for , is and will proue ( when you haue done what you can ) but as the tares Math. 13 that were by Sathan subtly and secretly sowen in the Lords field , long after the good seed was sowen . And yet we labouring onely according to our callinges , and that knowledge that God hath giuen vs of his trueth out of his written word , to call you from this newe found pretended religion of yours , to the ancient and true catholicke faith , which we haue learned out of the scriptures , and of alsound antiquity : you not onely burst out into this vaine and monstrously false brags , of the antiquity of yours , and nouelty of ours , but also knowing in your own consciences , that your folly therein wil soone be descried , you cal then for miracles to confirme and warrant this our commission by , which you would faine proue , to be as necessarie for vs in this case , as it was for Moses in his time , thereby to confirme his . Wherunto I say as vpon the like occasion , S. Augustine said in his time , de ciuitate Dei l. 22. c. 8. Whosoeuer yet seeketh after miracles , that so he may beleeue , he himselfe is a monstrous miracle , who the world beleeuing , yet beleeues not . For if our doctrine be the same , that the Apostles taught ( as we are alwaies ready , and by GODS grace able to proue it to be , by the vndoubted woord of God ) then their miracles are so many seales of this our doctrine , and so it beeing thereby sufficiently confirmed already by miracles , needles is it to require any further confirmation thereof now , by new miracles againe . But you seeme to take it for granted , that we stand either very much , or altogither vpon the extraordinarines of our vocation , and therfore supposing that such a vocation must alwaies be confirmed by miracles , you call for them the rather , thus earnestly at our hands . Concerning which point , I haue tolde you already , that though in such ruins of the church , as you had brought it vnto , it bee no strange thing with God to stir vp men extraordinarily , to seeke the reformation thereof , as he did many of the Prophets : yet neither the first ministers , which in these later daies , he hath vsed to this end amongst vs , nor those that he hath vsed since , to go on with that which the others began , rely onely vpon an extraordinary calling , for as I haue shewed , both the one and the other , haue had outward ordinary calling . Besides you must vnderstand , that a man may haue an extraordinary calling , as had Nahum , Abdia , & diuers other of the prophets , who yet you cannot shew , euer wrought any miracles to confirme their calling withal . And to vse Chrysostomes words , which he vsed against such as you , in that commentary vpon Matth. Hom. 47. which you father vpon him , what miracle wrought Iohn Baptist , which instructed so many and great Cities ? For the Euangelist saieth he wrought none Iohn . 10. And yet who therefore may lawfully say , that he had no lawfull vocation or good commission . Againe you know by that which is writen Deut. 13. & 2. Thes. 2. and elswhere : that false prophets , yea Antichrist himselfe , may and shal seeke to seduce men , and to draw men from God by miracles , & therefore there God forwarneth his people thereof , that if notwithstanding they suffer themselues , the rather to be peruerted thereby , they may be voide of al excuse . Wherefore , seeing there haue bene sundry true prophets extraordinarily called , that yet haue wrought no miracles , and also many false prophets , that haue wrought them , and may doe agayne ; to what purpose should you thus call for miracles , as though they straight might lawfully be refused , that worke them not , and they safely alwayes followed , that doe them ? Howsoeuer you seeme to pretend , that if we should worke miracles you would beleeue vs , yet certayne it is , that if we should worke neuer so many , you would as little for all that beleeue vs , as the blinde and superstitious Iewes beleeued Christ and his Apostles , for all the myracles wrought by them : but this is onely a shift of yours , as long as you may , to dazell the eyes of the simple . For questionles if myracles would serue the turne , beside sundry miracles indeede which the stories doe testifie , haue beene wrought by God , in the protection and propagation of the religion , which we now professe , euen this is a miracle of miracles , that Luther , lyuing in such a time as he did , should doe as he did , & to so great effect without miracle , & yet in the end , maugre al his enemies , which were many & mighty , to die quietly , as he did , in his bed . So that al these things considered , it appeareth ( I hope ) sufficiently to the indifferent reader , that you haue no such aduantage against vs for miracles , and you pretend . But because your obiection in this behalfe is so egerly prosecuted by you , I wil not refuse to follow you from step to step & to yeeld you a more particuler answer , to whatsoeuer you haue sayed in this matter . First therefore , whereas you would insinuate to your reader , that we doe wrong , in comparing the misery that the poor people were in , vnder your Popes , to the misery that the people of Israel were in , in Aegipt , vnder Pharao ; & their deliuerance from the Romish yoke , to the deliuerance of that people , from the bondage of Aegypt : we graunt you , we make that comparison sometimes , & we are sure , that therein there is offred no wrong at al vnto you . For both in vniuersality , continuannce of time , and extremity both to soule & bodie , the slauery vnder your proud antichristian Popes , hath exceeded theirs , vnder Pharao in Aegypt : and consequently , the deliuerance of the people from that of yours , must needes ( beeing as it is both more spiritual and general , then that of theirs was ) much exceed that of theirs . But that therefore , it is as necessary that wee should anew work miracles , to confirme our vocation , to doe this ; as it was for Moses to confirme his calling , to doe the other thereby : therin you are both deceiued & seeke also to deceiue others . For Moses by God was shewed , that he should so confirme his , and so are not we that we shal or ought so to confirme ours , and his calling thereunto was not onely extraordinary , whereas ours in great part at least ( as I haue shewed ) hath bene to this ordinary , but also the thing it selfe and the means to bring it to passe , both in the eies of Pharao & al others , were strange & miraculous , wheras in this our case in delyuering men from your antichristian seruitude , & bringing them to the liberty & freedome purchased for them , by the bloud of Christ , by the preaching of the worde of God sincerely , & ministring his sacraments accordingly , both are wonted & ordinary . For what is more ordinary with God , then to bring men from error to trueth , & that by these means in his church ? The thing that Moses was sent to doe was a new & strange thing : for a man of his quality without force of war & weapons to deliuer so great & gainful a people out of the hands of such an hard hearted tyrant , it is wonderful , & therfore it was likewise necessary , that the means that he should effect that by , especially should be miracles . Finally there was no certainer way for Moses , hauing to deal with such an one as he had , them to approue his calling by miracles , wheras ours in this , is far more substantiallie iustified by the scriptures , from whence our doctrine hath warrant , that hath wrought this effect , then it could haue by miracles . For as when the law was first published with al the ceremonies therof , it was needful , because then it was new , that Moses credit the publisher therof , & the law it selfe , should be confirmed by miracle , but when in the raigne of Iosiah , Hilkiah the priest found the booke of the law , which had lien hid before a long time , & so did but reuiue or renue the same law , that was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles , he wrought no miracles , neither was there any called for , or looked for at his hands , for it was needles . Euen so , when the ceasing of the ceremonial seruice of the law was to end , & the new priesthood of Christ to come in place thereof , & so withal that then first it should be notified both to Iew and gentile who was and is the very person of the Messias , & what new gouernment & sacraments he would haue in his house , it was necessary that miracles should be wrought , to confirme the ministry of them , that should teach these new & strange thinges first vnto the world : but now these things hauing bene already then sufficiently confirmed by miracles , we comming in these later daies of the world , and not taking vpon vs , to preach any other doctrine then the former , and so onely renuing and reuiuing the knowledge of that , which by the ignoraunce and wickednes of former times , had lyen in great part hid , no more at our hands ought miracles to be looked for . Indeede if it could be proued but once , that we labour to set abroach a new doctrine ( as you often in wordes charge vs ) that neuer was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles , or if the maner that we vsed to reuiue it by , were any other , but the ancient ordinary way that God hath alwaies allowed in his Church , there were yet some colour of reason , why they should bee thus called for at our handes . But seeing wee stand vpon that point , and haue alwaies done , that our religion is the very same , and no other that Christ and his Apostles taught , which by them in their times was confirmed by miracles , and the maner of our dealing to spread the same againe , is but the ordinary ministerie of the worde and sacraments , by them left for the same purpose vnto the church , there is no reason at all , in matching vs , thus as you doe , with Moses , and in requiring miracles of vs , as of him . And vntill you can proue by the scriptures , that the doctrine that we preach is false , which you neuer shall be able to doe , the three places which you cite out of Ieremie 14.27 . & 29. vttered by him , to admonish the people in his time , to take heede of suffering of themselues to be seduced , with the false and lying Prophets , that were in those daies , make nothing at all against vs , nor yet appertaine to the matter in hand : which was to proue , that seeing we worke no miracles , therefore our commission cannot be good , in taking vpon vs to reforme you . For in these places ( euen by the words as they are set down by your selfe ) it most euidently appeares , that he warned the people to take heede onely of such Prophets , as prophecied falsly in the name of God , hauing no vocation from him , and labouring to seduce the people by false visions , naughty diuinations , southsayings and their owne dreames : whereas we haue ordinary vocation from God preach nothing but trueth warranted by his word , and neuer vse , but alwaies abhor the vse , of all these meanes , that they vsed to seduce the people by . But herein most certaine it is , that the Lord most plainely forewarneth his people of such as you be . For you be they indeede , that were neuer sent of Christ , but of Antichrist , and that preach false doctrine , as doeth appeare not only by the dissenting , but by the contrariety of your doctrine , in a number of points from the vndoubted word of God ( as I haue noted in sundrie places in this my answere to you ) and then whom neuer any false Prophets in the world , more relied vpon false visions , diuinations , southsayings & fond dreames ; for indeede they are the best & most vsuall pillers , & grounds of your Popish doctrine . For what is more common with you , then to the ende these may haue place , to complaine , and by long rhetoricall discourses , to make what shew you can , of the obscurity , vnsufficiency and vncertainty of the word writen ; that so with some colour , you may shew the triall of your doctrine , by that touchstone , and all because , in your owne consciences you know , that it cannot be iustified thereby . And then , when thus you haue satisfied your selues in weakning , what you may , the credit of the scriptures , to prepare a way for your selues to fly from them : then you breake out into commendation of the word vnwriten , traditions , and liuely practise of the church , that so by that window , you may thrust in and out to the Church , whatsoeuer pleaseth you , be it neuer so fond a vision , diuination or dreame of your owne drowsy heads . But yet once againe , for lacke of miracles howsoeuer the case stand , whither we be sent of God or no , for your refusing to yeeld vnto vs , you thinke you may pleade simplicity , and ignorance , for your excuse , as Abimelech did Gen. 20. especially ( you say ) seeing you are willed not to beleeue euery spirit , and seeing you reade , that the Angell of darknes , will sometime transforme himselfe into the shape of an Angell of light &c. But withall , you must remember , that you are willed to search the scriptures Iohn 5. & so , to trie the spirits , whither they be of God or no 1. Ioh. 4. For they are able to make the man of God wise to saluation , & thorowly to furnish him , to all good workes . 2. Tim. 3. which if you did as you ought , thereby you shall be driuen to perceaue , that not only our calling is of God , but that also we teach the trueth according to the same , and that therefore , notwithstanding we worke no miracles ; yet your ignorance cannot be simple ignorance , as Abimelechs was , but either wilfull , or of an idle peeuish negligence , and therefore such as cannot excuse you , in refusing to beleeue vs . And as it is writen , that sathan will so transforme himselfe , as you write , and that we should take heede what way we take , for there is a way that seemeth good , and yet leadeth to destruction : so you must remember that still , the due consideration of the writen word , is the meanes to preserue vs from the danger of both . For thereby Christ hath taught vs to withstand him Mat. 4. euen when he would seeme to fortify his temptations with the word writen it selfe ; & whereby else shall a young man learne , to frame his waies aright , but by taking heede thereunto according to the same . Psal 119. you must also remember , that it is writen , Wo to him that calleth good euil , Esa. 5. & striue to enter in at the streite gate Luk , 13. Al this notwithstanding , in your opinion we are like to a false merchant , pretending to be the Princes seruant , in his masters name demanding mony of his debtters , hauing neither his hand nor seale to warrant his demand : and all this you say , & would perswade to be true , because we worke no miracles , as the Apostles did . I deny your argument , for we haue our Lord & masters hand and seale in his writen word , in that therby our doctrin is taught , & as it appears , therby is sealed both by miracles & with the pretious bloud of our lord & sauiour : yea but say you , if yee be the Apostles successours , in preaching this doctrine , why doe ye not confirme your doctrine with signes and wonders , and say with the Apostle Paul 2. Corinth. 12. the signes of our Apostleship haue beene accomplished amongst you , with signes and miracles ? Hereunto I answere , that then it was necessarie for them so to doe , and yet now it is not likewise for vs , because then for the newnesse and strangenes of diuerse things incident to their ministrie , miracles for the first confirmation thereof , for a time were necessary , whereas now , we taking vpon vs only to preach the same doctrine , as we doe , it being then thereby sufficiently confirmed , it is needles now to confirme it againe thereby .

The XVIII . Chapter .

YOu a a And so we may still , for any reason that you doe shew to the contrary . doe answer vs , as the Iewes were answered by Christ , when they did demande him to shew some miracles . * * Mat. 12. The generation adulterous & peruerse doeth demaund signes , but no signe shal be giuen them &c. But this comparison cannot bee applied vnto vs , for we are not so hard of beliefe as the Iewes , nor you such faithfull messengers of God , as Christ was , of whom the Iewes did demande some signes of obstinate hatred , after they had seene so manie lame healed , so manie blinde receiue their sight , so manie deafe heare , and so manie dispossest that had spirites : but as for you , b b The power of our commission hath stretched so farre , as to the harts griefe of al your Synagogue , your Romish Babylon is so falne , that ye euen despaire of euer recouering the glorious pompe , of your Babylonish harlot againe . we haue seene your commission not to haue extended so far , as to restore a flie to life againe , or to heale a lame goose , although that greater matters are required to confirme so strange and so new a reformed Gospell . These wordes doe make you mad , crying out and preaching in euerie place , that your church ought c c We say and preach thus , and we are well able to stand to it . not to be called newe , but rather , that it is olde & Apostolicall , & that your doctrine is the very same , that S. Peter & S. Paul did preach . And to drawe the simple people to beleeue that , that you say , you doe declare your faith , saying that you doe beleeue , & doe preach , that there is one God in Trinitie of persons , and the second , which is our sauiour became man from the wombe of the virgin , and that he suffered and did rise againe , & to be briefe , you shew , that you haue profited in your Religion , for you haue beene but fortie yeares ( which is the time since it began ) in learning the great creede , & the Pater noster , the which you could not learne in a thousand and fiue hundred of ours . But in all this you say nothing to the purpose : for we doe not demande of you , whether you can well your Catechisme , d d If we had had no better catechisers then you , we should neuer aright haue vnderstoode , either Creed , the Lords praier , or the commandements . the which you hauing learned of vs , you teach to others . And as Sampson saied : Iud. 15. If you had not laboured with my cowe , ye would neuer haue hit my riddle . That is to saie , that if that our Church had not nursed or taught you , which are her rebellious children , you would haue knowen nothing : for it is of our Church , that you haue learned the principles of your faith . e e Howsoeuer these had t●●ir bringing vp and maintenance for a time amongst you , they had their learning & true knowledge no more from you , then Paul had of the Pharises . She is the Cowe that hath nourished Caluin in a Canonrie of Noyon , & Theodore de Beza in the Priorie of Louinnam hard by Paris : and consequentlie all the other ministers , which haue learned all that they know , at the conuent of S. Francis , S. Dominick , S. Augustine , and of S. Bennet , where ye were nourished spirituallie , as touching your doctrine : and temporallie , as touching the mainteining of your studie , at the charge of that church , against the which ye doe now so striue , f f These & others haue sought to be thankful to you for these things , as Paul sought to be thankfull for the like , to the Pharisees and Iews , in seeking their reformation and conuersion . as the camels , which sometime reward their masters for their good keeping with yerking & biting : so that colour it how you list , ye cannot deny , but that ye set forth new deuises . For although it is so , that your heresies ( which to please the eares of the vnlearned , yee call the reformed Gospell & pure word of God ) haue beene in times past , g g This is but your spitefull vaine of popish railing , without either trueth , honesty or reason . yet they were buried in the verie depth of hell , & you haue raised them againe , cloked with new colours . But although it were so , that your doctrine were not new , but verie olde , h h If either our office or errand were extraordinary , you say somewhat , but both being ordidinary , there is no like reason , that miracles should bee wrought by vs as by them . yet ought not you to be more priuiledged then Moses and the Prophets , whose simple and plaine wordes the world would not beleeue , although they preached no new doctrine , no more then you saie that you doe . Moses did shew manie miracles in Egypt , and why ? was the principall cause to deliuer the children of Israell out of the captiuitie of Pharao ? No surelie : for to what purpose , I praie you , should God shew such great power and might against a simple worme of earth ? Is it like to be true , that he should mooue the whole heauens with such great darkenesse , * * i Exod. 19. to sende so manie notable plagues , to bring him to yeelde , which had confessed his wickednesse , for the torment that he suffered with the flies , the frogs , and Grashoppers ? Surelie no , he himselfe doeth shew the cause , it is to the end , that my name be knowen ouer all the earth : that is to saie , that men should know , that he is God . If we come to the Apostles , wee shall finde likewise , that their doctrine was not new : for when they began to preach vnto the gentils & Idolaters , i i For the 9. they did not at the first preach Iesus Christ , but they did seeke to blot out of the minds of the simple people , the foolish opinion that they had in the multitude of Gods , & to teach them , that there was but one God , who had created the heauen & earth , who sendeth raine in time of neede , & all things els that are required for the sustenance of man . k k This he preacht but this was not al , & therefore he preaching somewhat that was new , both to Iewe and Gentile , namely , that Iesus was the Christ : therefore in that respect he & his fellows had need to confirme their doctrine , by signes and wonders . This is the doctrin that S. Paul did preach , as we read in the * * Act. 14. Acts. This doctrine was not new among men , although it were so , that they were Painims : l l And therefore you bestow much needelesse cost , to proue this point , no new doctrine , touching the vnity of the Godheade , and the verity thereof . for not onlie in Moses lawe , nor in the law of Grace , but euen by the lawe of Nature , God hath beene knowen , euen of those which were not of the familie of Abraham , Isaac , & Iacob , vnto whom the promise of the incarnation of Christ was made . Of this doeth Abimilech the King of Gerar beare witnesse , who did excuse himselfe before God , for the wife of Abraham : hee could neuer haue knowen , how to talke thus with God , if he had not knowen him . * * Gen. 20. Besides this , he made Abraham to swear by the inuocation of the saied God , that neither he , nor his heires should suffer anie dammage by his posterity . * * Gen. 24. Bathuel did likewise know God , when he confessed , that he was the authour of the mariage of his daughter with Abrahams son : euen so Abimilech the king of the Palestines , & Phicol & Ochosath saied vnto Isaac : We heare that God is with thee , & therfore we are come to make alliance togither . * * ᵐ Judg. 2. Adonibezeth , although he were a Gentile , did not he confesse one God , m m Iudg. the first you would say . when he saied , that he had giuen him the selfesame punishment , that he had giuen the .70 . kings ? Iob & al his frends , although they were Gentiles , haue auouched one God to be the Creatour of heauen & earth , euen aswell as the Israelites , as it doeth appeare by the discourse of the said Iob. If we read the histories of the Paynims , we shal finde , that they beare witnes of one God among themselues . Diogenes Laertius , ● the liues of the Philosophers , doeth write , that the Emperour Adrian did demaunde of a Philosopher celled Secundus , what God was ? He answered : God is an immortall spirit , incomprehensible , containing al the world , a light , and a soueraigne goodnes . True it is , that this Secundus was bolder to speake of God , then another Philosopher called Simonides ; of whom Tullie doeth write in his first booke De naturâ deorum , vnto whom , when the tyrant Hiero did demaunde of him , what God was , & that he had giuen him diuers daies of respuit to answer him , at the last he saied , that he did acknowledge in him an infinite of al things . Cicero himselfe in the first question of his Tusculanes , doeth gouerne & giue the being to all things . And in diuers places of that worke he doeth wel expresse , that he knew wel , that there was one God , and that the Gods that the Gentiles did worship , were but mortall men . And in the saied booke he saieth , that we know God by his works , in the which hee doeth not much differ from Dauid , saying : * * Psal. 18. That the heauens declare the glory of God , and the firmament doeth anounce his workes . And in the 40. Chapter of Esay , when God did talke with the Gentiles , he did cal his works to beare witnes of his greatnes . Lift vp your eies ( saieth he ) and beholde who hath made this . And the * * Sap. 13 : Sage doeth say , that men through their vanity haue not knowen God by his works . And * * Rom. 1. Saint Paul doeth absolutely condemne them , saying , that they can procure no excuse of ignorance , for the inuisible things ( such as is the diuinitie of God ) maie be knowen by the visible thinges . And therefore they are vnexcusable , hauing hidden the trueth of God to vniustice : for after that they haue knowen him , they haue not giuen him that thankes and honour , that they should haue done , but they haue beene deceiued through their owne subtilitie , & making a profession of knowledge , they haue beene founde foolish and ignoraunt . S. Augustine . 8. lib. de Ciu. dei . cap. 24. doeth reckon Mercurius , called Hermes Trimegistus , among these , forasmuch as he did continue in his owne errour , although he knewe by that ( that one maie see in his owne writinges ) that his auncetours did err greatlie in the making and worshipping of so manie Gods .

The XVIII . Chapter .

INdeede euen as you suppose , in this case , we further aunswere you , as the Iewes were answered by Christ , telling you that you are an adulterous and peruerse generation , in thus demaunding signes to confirme a doctrine , already of ancient time sufficiently confirmed . But this answere ( you say ) cannot be iustly made to you , because neither we are faithful messengers from God as Christ was , nor you so hard harted as these Iewes were . Trueth it is , we dare not compare in faithfulnes with Christ , for such comparison were odious , but with S. Paul we protest , that in seruing the God of our fathers , according to that Religion which you count heresie , beleeuing all that is writen in the law & the Prophets , we haue alwaies endeuoured to keepe a good conscience both before God and man Act. 24. and as for you , we see no cause to the contrary , but that you may both for malice against the trueth , and hard hartednes , be compared with the Iewes . For though we worke no miracles , and they then had seene Christ to worke many , yet our doctrine beeing the same that he taught and no other ( as we are alwaies ready and willing to proue it to be by the scriptures ) it hath beene confirmed not only by all the miracles that then Christ had wrought , but also by all them that since were wrought by him or his Apostles , to confirme the same : and therefore you yet refusing to beleeue it , shew as great hardnes of hart , as they did & rather more . Indeed if we took vpon vs , either any callings not warranted by the Lord in his word , or to preach any doctrine which we could not warrant by the canonicall scriptures , you might with some reason call for some miracles of vs : but seeing you can proue neither of these against vs , you may with more reason giue ouer this obiection , then to pursue it any further . Indeede we are not ashamed to confesse , that these are two principall reasons , which are here remembred by you , wherby we proue our Religion to be the true & ancient Catholicke faith , taught by the Apostles , and euer since continued in Christes true Church : namely first , for that by the Canonicall scriptures , we can proue it to be the same that they preached , seeing it cannot be denied , but their preaching and writing agreed ; and secondly , because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme , the ten commandements , the articles of the faith , the Lords praier &c. And for these causes indeede , we most confidently say and aduouch , that you doe vs extreame wrong , the trueth & soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding , either to call our Church or Religion new , or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now , as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before . But in all this , with you we say nothing to the purpose : yet with the indifferent Reader ( I hope ) it is to good and great purpose , seeing hereby we labour to proue , that our church and Religion is not new , and but of 40. yeares continuance , as here most vntruly you charge it : but olde & ancient , because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme . All you say to confute this argument of ours , is , that we haue learned our Catechisme of you , & otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it . Whereunto I answere , that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you , we had yet beene but badly Catechised : and this further you may be sure of , your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs , if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme , either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed , and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures , vpon your credit we had not receiued them : besides , as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter , we haue had in all ages , from Christ downe to our owne , very manie of our owne Religion , that haue continued , and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs , these partes of the Catechisme , more soundly and faithfully then you haue done , so that , if you had neuer beene , we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things . But in the most wise prouidence of God , these were in some sort also continued amongst you , that so you might be the more without excuse , in that , notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby , you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse , then in the light thereof . And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse , in your Synagogues , through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope , and his Chaplaines , neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other ( whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint. 14. ) he brought to passe , not onely , that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin , and rather lying legends permitted to be read , in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue , then the Scriptures of God : but also that these portions of the Catechisme should , either not bee learned at all , or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue , which he knew was all one in effect . Otherwise then thus , by your good wils ( how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue ) wee should not , nor could not bee suffered to learne them , and therefore this learning being altogether without edification , neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you , nor why we should account our selues any thing in your debte for the same . Further to make it yet more appeare , how little beholden we are to you , for teaching vs the Catechisme , let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof , here named by you , the ten commandements , the creede , and the Lordes prayer . First , concerning the ten commandements , in steede of one God , which there we are commanded to haue , you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints , Angels , your breaden God , and your Pope , as you doe , haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one ; and secondly , that your images and idols might stand to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto them , it was and is a common trick with you , in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere , to leaue the second commandement quite out , which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them , and yet least you should of euery one be spied , in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two . And as for the other 2. commandements of the first table , by your ordinary & most common practise , the people were taught ( whatsoeuer is there to the contrary ) that it very well becommeth them of your schoole , vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods , and to season all their common talke , with oathes of all sortes : and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde , to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke . And to proceede to the second table , neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect , for loue of their Corban , then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks , friers & nuns , in all contempt and neglect of duety to their parents , if once you could entise them into those cloisters . How pretious soeuer bloud be , yet so small a matter hath it bene with you , that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints , and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you , but also often much commended if hee can , though neuer so traiterously embrue his hands , for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince , brother , or of whom soeuer else . And as for adulterie or fornication , yea for sinnes against nature not to be named , your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of ; in that notwithstanding they know , that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life , in euerie corner , that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you , yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie , they are contented that this ●ench increase stil . Your infinite and open sacriledges , in building & founding your cloisters and Prelacies , in sp●●●ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers , & other your innumerable & vnsatiable pillings & polings of Gods Church : your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you count heretiques , and your ordinary doctrine , that bare concupiscence , ●s no sinne , shew , what Catechisers you are for the rest . And whereas in the creede , we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie , in that you vsually teach vs to trust , yea in the matter of saluation , to a number of things besides , and to praie vnto saints and Angels , it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God , there is not sauiour Esa. 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of saluation Act. 4. and that none are to be called vpon , in whom we beleeue , not ) Rom. 10. you teach vs to beleeue in many thinges and persons besides the Trinity , & so to be apostataes from our creede & forme of baptism . And besides , whiles you teach vs this doctrine of inuocation of saints and Angels , contrary both to the beginning and ende of the Lords praier : you also teach vs to pray vnto them , to whom we may neither begin nor ende our praier , as thereby we are taught . And therefore you dealing with vs in these pointes and diuerse others , being so grosse as it is , and was ( if we had had no better warrant to receiue these partes of the Catechisme , then your worde ) we should haue had small courage , to haue receiued them as from you . But Caluin , Beza , and other of our famous ministers in the teeth , with hauing their education and maintenance at their bookes first with you , comparing them in that now they set themselues against your corruptions vnto Camels , with reward their masters for their good keeping , with yerking and biting . Whereas in trueth ( if you had grace to see it ) they could no way shew themselues more thankefull vnto you for the same ; then by carefull and diligent labouring your conuersion , and reformation , as they haue done . S. Paul ( you know ) was brought vp at the feete of Gamaliel , a notable Pharisee , & was himselfe at the first by profession a Pharisee , and so had his education and maintenance at the first , amongst such : what then ? will you resemble him to your yerking Camels , because after , when it pleased God to open his eies , and to conuert him to Christ , hee preached and wrote against the errours of the Pharises , & laboured their reformation ? why should you then euen for imitating of S. Paul , thus vnmanerly compare these men , or any other , whom it shall please God to stirre vp in like maner to seeke your good .

Still you call our Religion new deuises , & now further you adde , that though it haue beene in times past , yet it was buried in the very depth of hell , & we haue raised it vp againe , & giuen it new colours . All this cannot make vs ashamed of the Gospell of Christ , which we know to be the power of God to saluation , to euery one that beleeueth , to the Iewe first , & also to the Grecian : Rom. 1.16 . For these are but bare words , how spitefull & malitious soeuer , and we know that when it was preached by Christ himselfe , and his Apostles , it had as hard sentence oft giuen of it , by the superstitious and blind Scribes and Pharises ; and yet for all that , it mightily preuailed then , and so doeth and will now . Yet it is well , that in some sorte now you will confesse , it hath beene before : for very confidently before in your 4. chapter you set downe , that none of vs can deny , but the Luther 1517. began it first : but as you did well in this , and spoke truely , so in adding , that it was yet buried &c. you speake not onely malitiously and blasphemously , as one day ( though I feare to late ) you shall be driuen to see ; but also vntruely . For you cannot be ignorant , but as it was before Luthers time professed and taught by Petrus Valdus , Iohn Wickliffe , & Iohn Hus ; so therein they had their followers , in Bohemia , Calabria , Angronia & diuers other places , and that in great numbers euen vnto Luthers time , and long after . And as for colours , we vse none to countenance this trueth , but the natiue & naturall colours , which the scriptures allow it : for we thinke it most sincerely preached , when it is most simply set forth onely in these colours : other colours we leaue to you , to decke vp the garish whore of Babylon withall . At last ( so earnest a procter , or crier are you for miracles ) that you are contented to ioine with vs vpon this point , that though our doctrine were not new , but very old , yet we must & ought to confirme it by miracles , And this you labour to proue , because the doctrine that Moses & the Apostles were sent to preach , was not new , but old , & yet they were furnished with power to worke miracles , to confirme that old & ancient doctrine . For Moses wrought his miracles ( you say ) especially to this ende , the Gods name might be knowen ouer all the earth , that is to say , that men should know , that he is God : & the Apostles ( as you say ) at their first preaching , preached not Iesus Christ vnto the Gentils , but that there was but one God : which by a number of testimonies you labour to proue was no new doctrin to the heathen & Painims ; but a thing , which by the light of nature left in them , and by the view of Gods works , many of them atteined vnto , & all might in such sort , as that they are without excuse , for that they worshipped not God , as God . This is ( I confesse ) directly to the matter , and some shew these things cary ( I graunt ) of proofe of that , which you toke in hande thereby to proue . But if we examine well those things , and weigh the weight of this argument , wee shall finde small , or rather no force at all therein , to proue indeede the thing intended thereby . For though God saie Exod. 9. not 19. ( as your quotation is ) that for this cause hee had set Pharaoh vp , to shew his power in him , and to declare his name throughout the whole world ( as in working of all miracles at all times , that is an especiall ende that the Lord hath . ) And though that bee no newe doctrine , that hee is God , and but one , and that both Moses and the Apostles taught this : yet this proueth not , but that otherwise both Moses and they had newe and strange matters giuen them in commission , for confirmation and effecting whereof , it was necessarie for them to worke miracles . For Moses especially was called , and appointed by God ( as it appeareth Exod. 3.4 . and 5. Chapters ) to this ende , to signifie vnto Pharaoh , that it was the pleasure of God , that he should dismisse his people . Which because the Lord had purposed ( notwithstanding the harde heart of Pharaoh ) to bring to passe , therefore Moses was by his direction to worke the miracles , hee wrought . So that the next ende of working of them , was to confirme this his newe and strange message to Pharaoh , and to cause it to take place , though therein the Lord had another further ende , namely thereby to get himselfe a name for euer . So in like maner , though the Apostles preached the God that made heauen & earth , to be the only true God ( as it appeareth they did , Act. 14. & 17. ) which was no new doctrine indeede in it selfe considered , yet it appeareth in the same places , that it was newe there . For in the one place , they worshipped Iupiter and Mercurie for Gods ; and in the other , an vnknowen God . And besides it is euident , that not onely their office was extraordinarie , in that immediately they had their calling from God , and their charge without limitation : but also that within the compasse of their commission they had to doe many new and strange things ; namely , to call the Gentils to the fellowship of the Church , to preach the abrogation of Moses ceremonies , to administer new sacraments , to ordeine new officers in the Church , as Euangelists , pastours , and doctours , and especially , to preach Iesus Christ to be the person of the Messias , god and man , the onely and sole Sauiour of the world : for which things sake , it was needfull for them to worke miracles , howsoeuer it was needeles in respect of the other old doctrine concerning the one true God . And therefore to make it appeare , that their miracles were wrought especially for the confirmation of this point , that Iesus was the Christ , & the person of the Messias , alwaies they worke their miracles in his name , whereas wee doe not preach some one point of olde doctrine onely , but altogether from point to point our doctrine is olde , and hath beene sufficiently by Christ and his Apostles already confirmed by miracles : neither haue we any newe , but the olde ordinary offices of pastours and doctours to publish it : and indeede , wee take vpon vs no newe or strange thing , but labour as nigh , as possibly we can , to conforme our selues euerie waie to the patterne shewed vs of ancient time , by Christ and his Apostles . Wherefore , vnlesse as you haue shewed , that Moses and the Apostles taught this one olde lesson , that there is but one God , and that he is he that made heauen & earth : so ye could haue shewed also that they wrought al their miracles to confirme that , & that otherwise besides that they had no new & strange things to doe & teach , for confirmation whereof , miracles were needeful , & therefore done by them , this that you say of them is nothing to binde vs to worke miracles , doing nothing , or teaching nothing otherwise then was done and taught 1500. yeares ago and more , by Christ and his Apostles : and so you might haue spared all that you haue saied , or can say , to proue , that this is an old , and no new doctrine , that there is a God , & that he is but one .

The XIX . Chapter .

LActantius Firmianus in his book of his diuine institutions . cap. 5. writing against the Gentiles , doeth proue , that there is but one God , & he doeth alleadge as witnesses , all the olde learned Philosophers , such as Thales Milesius , Pythagoras , Anaxagoras , Cleanthus , Anaximeus , Crysippus , Heno , Plato , Aristotle , Seneca , and others . Octauius likewise , a Christian Oratour , disputing against Cecilius , as then a Gentle , doeth alleage likewise , to confound these olde Philosophers , and he doeth adde more , Xenophon , Spensippus , Demaritus , Strato , Theophrastus & many more . * * ᵃ Act. 12. S. Paul likewise , preaching to the Athenians , doeth protest , a a Act. 17. you should haue said . that he doth teach them no new thing , but rather him whom they did worship , & did not know . By the which it is plainelie to be seene , that the Apostles did not announce vnto the people anie new law , for it was verie olde , and notwithstanding , they did confirme it with miracles . And if you saie , that although those learned Philosophers had aknowledge of God , as it doeth appeare by their workes : yet there is found in them no mention of Iesus Christ , and therefore , that it was necessarie to approue that doctrine with signes and miracles . But contrariwise , that you in your new reformed Gospell , doe preach the olde Apostolicall lawe , I doe answere you to this , that the 9. Sybilles b b Though it was foreseene that such a one shuld come , yet that Iesus the sonne of Mary was he , was new , and needed such confirmation by miracles . did speake of his comming and birth , euen as plainelie as anie of the Prophets : and amongst other Sybilla Erithrea did as fullie Prophesie of the comming of our Sauiour to iudge the quicke and the dead , as anie other Prophet ; at S Augustine doeth testifie . c c Ther is nothing once sounding that way . In other places I graunt he speaketh hereof , but he no where th●s matcheth them with the Prophets . Lib. 1. de ciui . dei . cap. 23. Likewise of his death and passion , and of the miracles he should doe before his death . The Oracles of the false Gods haue likewise declared vnto the Gentiles the comming of Christ , as Lactantius Firmianus doeth write , * * Li● . 1. cap. 15. li. 4. cap. 15. in his booke of the diuine institutions . Nicephorus in like maner doeth write how Augustus Cesar sacrifising to the God Apollo Pithius in his temple could get no other but a verie briefe answere , then Cesar did demaund why hee could not make him then as fullie answere as he did at other times , Apollo was constrained to saie the trueth , the which was , that a young Hebrewe childe borne of late , did commaunde him to retire himselfe into his hell , d d You text and your margent agree ●o●y our margent is right and the other wrong . vnto whom he was forced to yeelde obediently , forasmuch as he was God , and gouernour of the other Gods , & therefore that he did counsell the saied Cesar quietlie to retire himselfe , & to make no more adoe : the verses are these . Me puer Hebraeus , diuos deus ipse gubernans , Cedere sede ●ubet , tristemque redire sub orcum : Aris ergo dehinc tacitus abscedito nostris .

The XIX . Chapter .

YOur proofes in this Chapter , out of Lactantius and Octauius , that the doctrine of one God is olde and ancient , in that they induce the olde learned Philosophers as witnesses thereof : and that which you alleadge to the same ende , spoken by S. Paul Act. 17. and not ( as your quotation is ) Act. 12. might well inough haue beene omitted . For as it is a thing not in question , so also ( as you may perceiue , by that which I haue saied in mine answere to your former Chapter ) it proueth not the thing you intend : for that both Moses and the Apostles had other matters in their commission , that were new and strange , for confirmation whereof they wrought their miracles , and not for this purpose only . But foreseeing , that we would in some part answere ( as I haue shewed ) that the doctrine of Iesus to be the person of the Messias , yet was new , in respect whereof it was necessarie for them , to approue their doctrine by miracles : you would proue , that that was not new neither , and so your meaning is , that the oldnes of our doctrine cannot proue miracles to be vnnecessary . But let vs heare , how you proue this . In this Chapter you proue it , by the testimony of the nine Sibils , especially of Sibilla Erithrea , the rather for Augustines testimony of her , in his 1. booke of the citty of God , c. 23. though indeede there be no mention at al of her in that place : who ( you say ) did speake as plainely & fully of his comming , birth , miracles , death , & comming to iudgement , as any of the Prophets : out of Lactantius 1. booke , & 15. c. of diuine institutions : & out of Nicephorus , by the oracle that Apollo gaue of him to the gentiles , & namely to Augustus Cesar : which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force , to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the comming , maner of comming , & office of such a Messias , yet they proue not , but that it was notwithstanding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of them : neither doe they at all proue , but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias , namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary , whom the Iewes crucified , was he , & no other , was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile , and therefore in that respect , it was necessary for the Apostles ( for all these thinges ) to confirme that by miracle : whereas now amongst vs , that beare any waie the name of Christians , that doctrine is not newe , neither anie thing else that wee preach , but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe , and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient , why the Apostles should worke miracles , and not wee . This also I cannot but tell you of , that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ , your comparison is verie odious , when you saie , they did it as fully , and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets : and that you wrong Augustine too too much , in making your Reader beleeue , that hee either in the place quoted by you , or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison . But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite , that directeth your pennes .

The XX. Chapter .

THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles , before the comming of the Apostles , who notwithstanding this , did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach , with manie notable miracles , although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient . And although that their doctrine was newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles , yet you cannot alleadge , that it was so a a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto them vnto the Iewes : for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe , they hearde nothing of the Apostles , but had beene prophecied by the Prophets . Doeth not Saint Paul saie , at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes , that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell , the which God promised by the holie Scriptures . * * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes , doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande , that his was no newe doctrine , because that hee did preach Iesus Christ , of whom Moses had prophecied long before , saying thus . * * ᵇ Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren , b b Deut. 18. you would saie . you shall obey him , as you doe me , and hee that doeth refuse it , shal be put to death . Saint Peter saieth afterwarde : All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time , doe announce vnto you these daies , that is to saie , the doctrine that wee doe preach . That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes , that is to wit , the remission of their sinnes , by the death and passion of Christ , it was no newe thing : for as * * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius , All the Prophets haue witnessed , that those that beleeue in him , shall obtaine remission of their sinnes : for it had beene so prophecied by Esay . c c 53 ▪ you should haue saied . cap. 55. vnto the people , aboue eight hundreth yeares , saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities , as it doeth appeare in his booke , in the which he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet : for there hee doeth write the tormentes of our Sauiour , euen as if hee had beene present at his passion . Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like , where hee doeth mention , the extreame affliction of our Redeemer , and of the Gall , and Isope , and the Vinager . Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour , but therewithall , the verie time that he should come . And to bee briefe , all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that , that the Apostles did preach vnto them . Now , if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached , aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles , was confirmed with manie miracles , which they did in the name of God , who sent them , the cause is this : the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations , that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God , so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God , but in a multitude of Gods . And in like maner , the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites , had beene troubled , and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees , in the which they did trust , for the iustification and remission of their sinnes . d d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause . The like doe you report of vs , and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs with the superstitious Iewes , and Idolatrous Paynims , placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers , and the true children of God , taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles , and calling your congregation , the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church . This sounds notablie well , but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church , as they did ; preaching the ancient doctrine of God , as they did ; and dealing with superstitious Idolaters , that cleaue more to the traditions of men , than vnto the pure word of God , as the Iewes . Seing then , that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes , and yours to the Apostles and Prophets , how comes it to passe , that you doe not as they did , seeing that you are sent from one master ? Why e e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was , their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it , to take away al excuse from them , that will not beleeue it , to the worldes ende . doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore , when he hath sent the like Commission to yours ?

The XX. Chapter .

I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter , why you must stay ( for all your premises ) from the conclusion , that you beginne withall in this . For howsoeuer some few of them , them heard in some sort , that such a Messias either should come or was come , yet the particuler person , who that same was , was first preached by the Angel Gabriel , & secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe ( Luke . 1. ) before he was borne : then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth , after by Simeon and Anna , Iohn Baptist , the Apostles of Christ , and the rest , as it followeth set downe in the story : Luke . 2. &c. But you say yet further , that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles , yet it was not so to the Iewes , for the Apostles preached nothing , but that which had warrant from the law and the prophets , as you proue ( I graunt ) wel out of the 1. to the Rom. and 10. of the Acts : conferring those places with the 53. of Esay ( though wrong quoted by you ) and out of the prophecy of Daniel . I graunt , they preached nothing , that ought to haue beene new vnto them , forasmuch as euery thing that they preached , had ground in the olde Testament , but yet ( as you after seeme to confesse ) it was growen new not onely to the Gentiles , but also to the Iewes , in that they were misse-led in the vnderstanding of the prophecies , that went before of him , both concerning his person and office , through their ignorance , corrupt glosses , & interpretations , that by false teachers were made thereof . Insomuch , that when the Messias came and executed his office ( though indeed all the ancient prophecies were yea & Amen in him , and most plainly in respect of euery circumstance verified ) yet they could not be perswaded , either that he was such a one in person , or office , as he was , and therefore then once it was necessary by all other good meanes & miracles also , to confirme the doctrine concerning him , which was thorowly done by Christ and his Apostles in their tymes . Now whereas hereupon you would inferre , that seeing wee match you with the superstitious Iewes , and Idolatrous Painims , and our selues take vpon vs Succession to the Apostles , and to the true catholique and Apostolique Church , and to reforme you of your errours , as they did theirs ; therefore we preaching that ancient doctrine of God , and of his Christ , that they did : we now also should confirme our doctrine & commission by miracles , as they did . Beside many other , there are two principal things , that let you from this conclusion . The first is , that howsoeuer other things were old , y they taught of God , & the Messias , yet this was new , who was the very person of the Messias . Wherin if they had erred ( though otherwise they had rightly vnderstood the generall doctrine both of his person , and office ) it had bene most dangerous for them : and therefore that doctrine especially is vrged by them ; as for example you may see in Peters sermon to Cornelius , Act. 10. And for the confirmation of that doctrin , they work al their miracles , not generally in the name of the Messias , but particulerly in the name of Iesus Christ of Nazareth , as it appeareth Act. 3.6 . &c. Which thing in respect of you , we haue not , for that is a thing agreed on betwixt vs . Another stop to your conclusion is , seing that doctrine hath bene once sufficiently confirmed by miracles , by Christ and his Apostles , that we teach , and you haue the same doctrine and miracles set downe in the new Testament , whereunto you seeme to giue credit , as wel as we : it is thenceforth needles for the ministers thereof , howsoeuer they meete with people , that for Idolatry & superstitious errours match the Gentiles , & the Iewes in the Apostles times : to vse any other proofe , than from those records of the scripture , which ought now to be accounted sufficient , & therefore now the calling for miracles to be out of time . To reason therfore as you doe , It was necessary for the Apostles in their time to worke miracles : Ergo it is necessary also now for vs , though our doctrine be the same ; is besides and without reason . And yet for al this , we recant no whit for comparing you to the superstitious Iewes , and Idolatrous heathen . For if either be worse then other , we thinke it is like to proue your selues , in that hauing far better meanes , and more knowledge of God , and his Christ , then they had , yet you multiply your Idolatries and superstitious conceites far beyond them . And euen for this , that notwithstanding your better meanes to keepe you in the waies of God , and your more knowledge , then they had , when Christ and his Apostles came first vnto them to preach this Gospel ; you match them in grosse Idolatrie , and in multitude of superstitions , and false opinions ; is it , that God , vouchsafing the better to conuert them , to worke miracles then ; thinketh it fit to answere you now , as the rich glutton was enforced in the like case ; ye haue Moses and the Prophets ; yea & also the books of the New Testament ; and if you will not beleeue them , you would not beleeue , though one should rise from death againe ; or what miracle soeuer els were wrought . But wher as you suppose , that the cause why the Apostles wrought miracles , was the blinde Idolatry of the heathen , & superstitions of the Iews onely ; and not any newnes of any part of their doctrine ; you are much deceiued , as you may perceiue by that which I haue saied . Againe , if you would perswade , that their doctrine was in no point new , because in the doctrine of one God , and in the doctrine of the Messias , in some points it was not , or ought not to haue bene so , your logicke is flender . For in other points it might be new , as I haue tolde you , and so in respect thereof , though not of the other , miracles were necessary . But this your obiection of lacke of miracles , pleaseth you so well , that you cannot haue done with it ; let vs therfore heare , what further you can say , touching this matter .

The XXI . Chapter .

YOu doe coniure vs by the name of the liuing God , to receiue your Gospel and pure word of God , or els you doe threaten vs , that you will shake off the dust of your feete in testimonie against vs , because that wee will not beleeue your words . But in this matter ye doe alleage a wronge text : for we were very simple , if we should forsake or remoue the foundation of our Church , vpon such an occasion , as I will shew by this discourse that doeth followe . I am sure that you are not ignoraunt , howe that Luther , after he began to preach his Gospell was not founde barren : for immediatelie after his beginning , he did ingender another Gospeller , that is to wit , Andrew Coralstadius , and from thence was produced another called Zuinglius , and of Zuinglius , Oecolampadius . Then , Thomas Muncerus , considering , that he had no lesse the gift of the spirit then the rest , hee beganne to forge a newe Gospell of the Anabaptists , with the which hee thought to gratifie the Towne of Milhouse , who had receaued alreadie the Gospel of Luther . But the Senate of that towne , beeing wearied already with two manie straunge Gospels , they aduertised Luther you first Apostle of it . And he wrote to them againe , that Thomas Muncerus ought not to be receiued , if hee could not proue his vocation by some miracle . And if you demaund where I haue founde this , I saie to you , not in the workes of some lying Papist , but in the Commentaries of your deare Historiographer master * * ᵃ Lib. 8. fol. 4. Sleydon , who hath so good a grace in his writing , and is so mooued with the trueth of his spirit , a a Either you had wondrous ill hap for your quotations , or else your printer was too bad , for it is lib. 5. that he doeth omit nothing in his Historie , but that , that doeth go against himselfe , and the professours of his religion . I doe wish those that doe vnderstande the Latin , to reade this answere of Luther in the Commentaries themselues , and for the rest , I will set it forth , translated , not by mee , but by a minister of your owne sect , called Robert Preuost , who dwelleth in a segnorie of Berne . According to his translation , the wordes are b b And Luther had reason so to aduise them , first because he had no lawful ordinary calling , and then because the doctrine which hee set abroach was contrary to the scriptures , which is not our case . these . Luther was of opinion , that the Senate of Milhouse should doe very wel and wisely , to demaund of Muncer , who had giuen him commission to teach , and who had called him vnto it . If hee say , that it is God , let him demaunde of him , to shew some signe or miracle to proue his vocation : and if hee coulde not doe it , that they should banishe him : for it is common to God , to declare his will by some miracle , at anie tyme , when hee will haue the common custome and order changed .

These are the words of Luther . We ought to yeelde that that is right to euerie bodie , & not depriue anie man of the praise that he doth deserue . And so I say , al the Catholicke Church is bound to giue praise & thanks to Luther , for the memorable good & wise counsel that he hath giuen , for he hath taught vs , how we shal expel & ouerthrow , not only the heresies that he did preach vnto vs , but likewise yours , & those of al the rest . For if it be so , that euerie time that God wil chaunge the ordinarie custome ( such as ours ) to an extraordinary ( such as yours ) there ought miracles to be shewed by those that come extraordinarily . By this good & godly aduise , we know , that Martin Luther , nor none of you all , which doe come extraordinarily , as he did , doe come from God , but rather from the prince of darkenes . Caluin doeth confirme this opinion of Luther , as touching the vocation of the ministerie : for vpon the third Chapter of Saint Luke , in his harmonie , hee doeth saie thus , None ought to attribute vnto himselfe by authority any office , forasmuch as it is great temeritie : such persons did nothing of them selues , except it were , being called to it by God . Of this we gather , we ought to enterprise nothing of our selues : for if that the great Prophets haue attended to be called of God , what are those , that in these daies take it vpon them of them selues ? we ought to answere , that they are presumptuous fellowes . &c. like vnto Caluin and his fellowes .

The XXI . Chapter .

IN this Chapter , to your purpose the onely thing you bring vs , is , the counsell that Luther gaue to the towne of Millehouse , for the triall of Muncer the Anabaptist , which you send vs , by your quotation , to seeke for , in the 8. booke of Sleidon ; and there it is not , but in the 5. but this is your happe with most of your quotations . His counsell was , that they should will him to proue his calling to be of God by some miracle ; because it is common with God , to declare his will by some miracle , when he will haue the common custome and order broken . Proue that we either in our doctrine or gouernment of our church doe breake the common custome and order taught in the church for these , in the writen word , as Muncer did , and then follow Luthers counsell and spare not . It euidently appeareth in that booke , that Muncer was a monstrous fantasticall Anabaptist , and that in Luthers iudgement he taught not onely many absurde thinges , contrary to the word : but that also peruerting all good order , and pollicie of Church , and common weale : he meant nothing more , then force , theeuerie , and other such villanie : and yet pretended for his defence , extraordinary calling and reuelations ; and therefore no maruel , though Luther gaue this counsell , for the sifting of such a wretch . In trueth the newnes of your doctrine considered , in comparison of that taught in the word , and the strangenesse of the order of your Church , from that of Christes , in the primatiue time thereof ; leade vs rather more iustly to followe this counsell of Luther against you , then any thing in vs can truely moue you to vrge it , against vs . Which if we should doe , certainely either should we finde you as voide of miracles , as you finde vs ; or at least you would be driuen to alleadge such monstrous , vaine , and lying miracles , as that now I thinke you your selues would be ashamed to tell . Indeede the time hath beene , when you would bragge of the miracles set downe in your Legends ( amongst which S. Dunstans catching the Deuil by the nose in the shape of a woman , with a paire of tonges , and such like , good store are reckoned vp ) and when we were told great wonders of the bloud of Hales , which proued in the ende , the bloud of a ducke ; and of great miracles done in this place , or that place , by the images of this Saint , and that : but this was in the night of deepe and black darkenes of ignorance . For now that the sunne of the Gospel shineth abroad , we heare little noise of your apparitions and visions , and other such antichristian miracles , that there was so great talke of before . It seemeth now that either your spirits are coniured into a dead sleepe , or that you haue lost your old gift of working miracles . Belike yet in that you make thus much of this counsel of Luther ; when they came from you so readily , and your Church had such a dexterity , and was so fruitful in bringing of thēforth ; it was because God would haue the world to vnderstand , that indeed you were setting abroach a new doctrine ; and a fashion of Gouernment , which neither agreed with the ancient and customable doctrine of his Church , nor yet with the olde order of the same ; and that therfore you thought it needfull by such meanes , to confirme your commission in so doing . Wherfore , make as much of this counsell of Luther , as you wil , it wil proue in the end to touch you more , then vs . You cite also a saying of Caluin in his 3. Chapter of his Harmonie vpon Luke , but to what purpose ? For who of vs euer either in word or deed contraried that speach or doctrine of his ? that is the thing that we obiect against you , that of your own heads ye haue deuised a number of offices , and orders in your Churches , that God neuer gaue allowance vnto : and besides that you haue set vp a number of pointes of doctrine , forged but in the shop of mans vaine braine , not onely not agreing to the word writen , but diuersly and wonderfully disagreeing . And as for vs , we stand vpon that point with you , that wee neither take office in hand , without sufficient calling thereunto from God , nor teach things , that we haue not good warrant for from his writen word . In the rest of the Chapter , there is nothing but scoffing at Luther and Sleydan , ioyned with malitious slaundering of the one to haue bred , not onely Coralstadius , Zuinglius , and Oecolampadius ( whereof he needed not to be ashamed if it were so ) but also Muncer the Anabaptist ; and the other to be a partiall Cronicler : which are things easie for you to speake , but impossible for you to proue : and therefore therein vntil you bring further proofe , you are worthy no further answere . And therefore , as yet for any thing you haue saied , you were best follow our counsell , and receiue the Gospel which we preach vnto you ; least the dust we shake off of our feete against you , proue a witnesse against you in earnest , at the day of iudgement .

The XXII . Chapter .

ALthough that by the testimonie of your owne doctours ye are condemned , yet you doe stil maintaine your ill cause , saying , that ye ought to be receaued to preach the Gospel a a Still herein you flatly bely & slander vs . extraordinarilie , b b If the ordinary way be thus by Pastours and Bishops , then few or none of your Priests haue entred the ordinary way , from whose ordering , Pastours haue beene and be vsually shut out . that is to saie , without the commission of the Pastors & Bishops , being those that are sent vs by the permission & ordinance of God . And you saie , to maintaine your commission extraordinarie , that you haue the holie scriptures , which you doe alleage , c c This obiection you will neuer be able to answere . the which alone ought in this behalfe to be of more credit , then al the miracles that euer the Apostles did . For it mate so chaunce , that by subtle deuises & impostures of the deuil , miracles maie be falselie counterf●●ted , but not the scripture which is the touchstone of the trueth , as it shal be seene by experience , when the childe of perdition , otherwise called Antichrist shal come . For he , to confirme his saying , shall shew such great signes and Miracles , that the verie elect should be seduced , if it were possible . Now to answere vnto this , which is a notable waie to deceiue the simple and vnlearned , d d Nay we take not our cause iustified because we alleadge scriptures , but because by the rule of right interpreting , we be able to shew , that the true sence thereof is of our side , which heretiques cannot doe , & therfore we standing vpon this as vpon the foundation of our cause , and we being alwaies ready to yeelde , vnlesse we can proue we truely alleadge them , all that you say in sundry chapters following , to proue that heretiques haue alleaged them is needelesse and beside the point . I saie , that if the alleaging of Scriptures should maintaine you , and fauour your cause so much as you doe saie , our side were driuen to hard shiftes : for then we might bee blamed before the seat of God , not onelie for not receiuing your Gospell , but likewise , for refusing the Gospell of diuers heretikes , that haue beene manie hundred yeares before you were borne : which did al alleage the Scriptures , as it doeth appeare by the three passages writen vnto the * * Cap. 6.10 . & 12. Hebrewes aboue mentioned . By the which the Nouatians did pretende , to verifie , that the mercie of God was denied vnto him , that did offende after his Baptisme , ioined with that that is writen in the first booke of the Kings . If man ( saied the good Helye ) doeth sinne agaynst man , hee maie agree with him agayne : but if hee come to offende God , who shall hee bee , that shall pray for his sinne ? Did not the Arrians alleage Scriptures , to maintaine , that Christ was not God and man ? Yes surelie , e e How or which proue you this ? as manie places or more then the Catholikes . Saint Augustine doeth write in his booke De haeresibus , ad quod vult deum , That there was in his time a certaine sect of heretikes that taught , that for a man to be saued , hee ought to be gelded . And they did alleage the nineteenth Chapter of S. Mat. where Christ doeth praise the Eunuches , which haue gelded themselues for the kingdome of heauen . And if a man were disposed to forge another heresie like this , hee might soone finde scripture to maintaine it , beeing ill interpreted : for he doeth commande , that wee should pull out our eies , and to cut off our handes and feete euerie time , that through them we are scandalizated : for ( saieth he ) it were better for one to enter blinde or lame into the kingdome of heauen , then to be condemned , hauing all our members : so that , taking these words as they are plainlie writen , we ought to cut the members from our bodie . f f It seemes you haue beene brought vp in this trade of misalleadging the Scriptures , you are so cunning in matching herein wicked heretiques . Besides this , he that would forge an heresie somewhat more pleasant and easie , one might soone doe it : the which is , that for to goe to Paradise , we haue no neede of hose , shooes or money because that our Sauiour did so commaund it to his Apostles . One maie likewise proue by the Gospell , that we haue no neede of Magistrates nor other Superiours , forasmuch as our Sauiour hath saied , that one is your Lord and master , namelie Christ . Moreouer , a man maie proue by scripture , that one ought to retaine nothing vnto himselfe , if anie other demaunde it , forasmuch as it is writen , If one demaund of you your coate , you ought not onelie to giue it , but your dublet also : and if one giue vs a box on the eare , it is not inough to take it patientlie , but we must turne the other cheeke also . g g And to this heresie , you come maruellous neare , in your cap. 34. Iouinian a great heretike , did teach , that a Christian after his baptisme doeth no more offend God , yea , that hee could not , although he would . Who would not hate such a blasphemous errour as this ? yet if the alleaging of the Scriptures ought to suffise , he maie be preferred before Master Caluin as more ancient : for hee doeth alleage Saint Iohn in his first * * Cap. 5. Epistle , who saieth : Wee knowe , that hee that is borne of God , doeth not sinne , for the generation of God doeth preserue him , and the ill spirit shall not touch him . And in the same h h That is a curled glosse that corrupts the text . Iohn speaks not of the sacramentall regeneration , but ●f effectuall regeneration by the spirit , which alwaies accompanies not the other . Euery man that is borne of God , that is to saie , baptized , hee doeth not sinne , for the seede of God doeth dwell in him , and hee cannot sinne , for he is borne of God . Saint Augustine doeth write in his eightie nine Epist. ad Hilarium , that the Pelagians and Manichees , among other heresies that they did maintaine , they saied , that it was impossible for rich men to enter into Paradise , vntill they had solde all their goods , and giuen them to the poore , and that all things ought to be common . The which doctrine is easilie to be maintained by the Scripture ill vnderstood : for * * Mat. 10. & 16. our Sauiour doth say , that for to be his disciples , we must forsake and renounce all that we haue , in testimony of the which , the first Christians at Ierusalem did sell all their possessions , and presented the money of them to the Apostles to giue to the poore . And that that is worse , the Adamites did maintaine a greater errour then this , and more brutish , the which is , that al mens wiues should be common , and they did cal this the true Gospel , and the pure word of God , alleaging for it the first and eight of Genelis , where God doeth say : Increase and multiplie , and replenish the earth . If you doe say , that this is a foolish opinion , I confesse it to be so : but that i i This is false , that Church condemneth popery , for this heresie , Zisca , Hus and their followers condemned before you . very Church which hath condemned this heresie of theirs , doeth likewise condemne yours . When the deuill determined to fight with Christ , he thought he could no wise aide himselfe so wel , as with the holy scripture ; perswading him , that the best way for him to shew himselfe to be the sonne of God was , to breake his necke , casting himselfe downe from the pinnacle of the Temple . And he did alleadge this text saying , * * Psal. 90. as it is writen : That the Angels of God should so preserue him , that he should not hurt his foote against the stones , following that Dauid saied . And if I should go about to write al the places of Scripture that the heretikes haue alleaged , to maintaine their horrible errours , I thinke surely , I might make a bigger booke then the Bible .

The XXIII . Chapter .

YF a a O you are your crafts master , a man may see , in wrong alleaging the Scriptures . that the sonne doe hate the father , or the father the sonne : or if the wife doe hate the husband , or the husband the wife , they may take the word of God , ill vnderstood , to defend their cause : for he doeth commaunde vs , that we shall hate those that are nearest vnto vs , as vnder the paine of not entring into Paradise , if we doe contrarie . But this ought to be vnderstoode , that we ought not to prefer the loue of anie creature , how neare soeuer they be to vs , before the loue of God . In like maner , he that will saie , that we should not eat of the bloud of those beasts that are smoothered , he may soone alleadge the scripture for it , which doeth saie , that at the councel that the Apostles held at Hierusalem , beeing present the holie Ghost , this ordinance was made , as we read in the. 15. Chapter of the Actes . And if that one should take in hand to bring al the places of scripture , that the heretikes haue alleaged to maintaine their opinions , I dare boldlie saie , that he shal finde it an endlesse piece of worke . For among so great a number of false Prophets , there hath bene verie few , or almost none , but they haue sought to maintaine their opinions by Scripture , drawing the places , as it were , by violence , to a depraued and a corrupt sense , beeing this the maner of interpreting of the Scriptures , called at this daie the pure word of God , by those that haue professed to be as long as they liue , enemies to the trueth . a a You should haue saied in his first come & 2 booke . The learned and auncient Doctour Epiphanius , in his first booke against heresies , doeth alleage , as touching this matter , a verie familiar example , saying , that if some good Caruer had made the image of a king , adorned with manie Iewels and precious stones , and that another should come afterward , and should take the same Iewels and precious stones , and make with them the image of a Fox or a Dogge , and that he should saie : beholde , here is the Image of a king , would not euerie bodie laugh him to scorne , and saie , that he did it in mockerie , or els , that he were mad ? Yes surelie : for although they bee the same Iewels , and that verie stuffe , wherewith was made the Image of the king , yet , because that this other workeman hath taken them awaie , and fashioned them after another sorte , it ought no more to bee called the image of a king , but the picture of a Fox or a Dogge . Euen thus is it with the holie Scriptures , which were left vs by the Apostles and Prophetes , for to paint in rich colours the Image of the great king of glorie : b b This is euen your ow●e dealing with the scripture vp & downe , when you would confirme Popery therewith . but seeing that you take those precious stones from the image of this king , and doe appropriate them vnto the Image of a Foxe , making them serue to cloake your heresies withal , it ought no more to be called the worde of God , nor the holie Scripture , but the word of men , & false doctrine . And therefore , if you will haue it to beare the first name you must set it in the first estate , that is to saie , c c This is certaine and therefore scripture trust interpret scripture , and not your Romish spirit . that it ought to be interpreted by him , that did first indite it . It is not by the will of man , saieth S. Peter . Epist. 2. Ca. 1. That the prophecy was brought , but by the inspiration of the holy Ghost , that holie persons haue spoken &c. I know wel , that you attribute the intelligence of the scripture vnto your Sinagogue . d d This we doe not take vpon vs . But how shal we beleeue , that the holy Ghost doeth dwel more in you , than in al the vniuersal Church , which hath continued from the passion of Christ vntil this time ? I pray , doe so much as answere me , if you my masters be the lodging of the holie Ghost , e e Whither our alleaging of them agree or not with the holie Ghost it selfe speaking in the scriptures , we are contented to let alwaies the true Church of Christ iudge . where did he make his residence before ye were borne ? I know already your answer , the which is , In the hearts of the faithful . And where were those faithful ? Marie , where the holy Ghost was . Answer thus stil , & ye shal be sure , that ye shal not be ouertaken : for it is as good as to play Handie dandie , & soye shal accomplish the olde Prouerbe the which sayeth : It is as farre from Douer to Caleis , as from Caleis to Douer . But to the ende that all the world maie see , the great hazarde of eternal damnation that those run into , that are so readie to beleeue euerie bodie , thinking that they are assured of their health , forasmuch as those that seduce them , saie , behold , there is the scripture , it is the pure word of God & the verie gospel , I wil set forth some heresies , that haue beene in times past condemned by the catholicke Church : the which notwithstanding haue bene a a This you can neuer doe . aswel , yea & more largelie confirmed by Scripture , then you can confirme anie of yours .

The XXIIII . Chapter .

THe Catholicke Church continuallie hath faithfullie holden , & doeth holde , that our Sauiour Iesus Christ is true God and man , hauing taken natural flesh in the wombe of the virgin Marie , wholie like vnto ours , as touching the corporal essence , that is to saie , excepted onelie sinne , the which bodie he did forme of the verie flesh and substaunce of his mother , by the operation of the holy Ghost , who hath wrought so notable and excellent a worke , that two contrary or diuers natures are miraculouslie ioined & vnited in one person , without confusion or conuersion of the one substance into the other , but by coniunction & vnion of them both , called by the diuines , Hipostatique . This doctrine hath euer beene receiued and holden by the Church in equal degree of trueth and reuerence , with the rest of the points of religion , which now you seeke to abolish . And notwithstanding this , diuers Ministers and Preachers , deriued from the sacred consistories of Valentinus , Photinus , Manes , Theodorus , Nestorius , Apollinaris , Eutichus , Macharius , Eutiocheus , besides a great number of other famous heretickes , that I cannot here name , haue sought to teach the contrary , saying , that they were sent from him that sent the Apostles , to reforme the Church , b b Thus at your pleasur● you father vpon these heretiques , to make them resemble vs , that , the contrary whereof , the ancient fathers attribute vnto them , namely that they shunned trial by the scriptures , that they accused them of vnsufficiency & darkenes , and so fled to vnwriten traditions , and fond reuelations euen as you doe for al the world . not by the Traditions of men , which you cal Papistical , but by the pure word of God . For euen like you , my masters , did Valentinus & his fellowes begin the reformed Church , taking vpon them the correction of al the Magistrates and Fathers in times past , saying , that they did abuse the people , because that they taught , that Iesus Christ had taken flesh and bloud of the Virgin Marie , saying , that this was a great errour : the which ought to be reformed , and that the people should beleeue , that he brought his bodie from heauen , and that he caused it to passe through the wombe of the Virgin Marie , as the water doeth through the chanell . This Gospel was verie straunge , yet the saied Valentinus did not want Scripture , as you haue , to confirme it , interpreting it , euen as you doe interpret here in France . He did alleage for his text the third of Iohn , where Christ doeth saie : No person is ascended to heauen , but hee that did descende from heauen . And therefore did he maintaine , that seeing Christ is in heauen , and descended from heauen , that he tooke no flesh of the virgin Marie . Nestorius another notable hereticke , did lincke his Gospell to Apollinaris opinion in this case , seperating the manhood from God , and saying that the sonne of man ought not to be called God : for seeing ( saied Apollinaris ) that this man is descended from heauen , it doeth follow , that hee tooke no flesh of the virgin : & besides this , Christ saiethe * * Ioh. 6. I am descended from heauen , not to doe my will , but the will of my father . Here hee doeth not speake , as one that is God for if it were so , he would haue no other wel , but the will of his father , and so he doeth speake like a man . And he saieth , that he is descended from heauen : for the which cause , this same Valentinus did take the conclusion of this Gospel to his aduantage : for the third authoritie , that is writen in the first to the Corinthians , where Saint Paul saieth : the first man is of earth earthlie , the second is of heauen heauenly . The which passage or place is as fit to serue Valentinus opinion , as all the places that you , and all those that hold your opinion , can alleage .

The XXV . Chapter .

ANother Minister likewise called Apollinaris followed after these , sent by the saied master , & yet according to his saying , he did preach the pure word of God , affirming that the Church ought to bee reformed , which had beleeued , that the two natures were contained in Iesus Christ , & that the true religion was , to beleeue , as it is writen in the 1 of Iohn , that the word was indeed become flesh , or conuerted into flesh : And to confirme this , he did alleage the saied place , where S. Iohn doeth say : And the word was made flesh : & when the catholickes did reply against him , saying that the verbe or word tooke flesh , & not as touching the conuersion of one substance into another : he did fortifie his Gospel with another text , where S. Iohn doeth write of the mariage at Canaa , where the water was changed into wine , that is to saie , as touching the very substance of the water which was turned into wine : Euen so saieth he , that it became at the verie Incarnation of Christ , alleaging that that we haue saied , And the word was made flesh . Arrius , which was the most famous hereticke that euer hath bene , did pretend to verifie another gospell : & his was , that our Sauiour Christ had not taken at his incarnation , a perfect soule , another men haue , but that he had onely a body , and that his diuinity did supplie the absence of his soule . Of this opinion was Apollinaris , Theodorus , Mossnestenus : and Nestorius came after , and they did blame the Catholick Church , because it did teach the saied vnion , called , as I haue saied , Hipostatique , that is to saie , of the two natures in one person . And they did alleage for their argument a verie subtil reason , the which was , that God did inhabite within the body of our sauiour , as he did within a Temple , that is to say , by grace , and not by being vnited togither . And therefore , euen as it were a great folly , to saie that God is a Temple , that so it is to saie , that God is a man . This Gospell did seeme verie new , yet did not they want Scripture to maintaine it , a a That is not because we haue not plainer places rightly alleaged for proofe of our religion , but that in Gods iust iudgement , such as you , haue eies and ee not . and that more plainer , then euer I could see anie place , to maintaine your heresies . Christ did saie vnto the Iewes . * * Joh. 2. Vndoe this Temple , and in three daies I will build it againe . He meant it by the Temple of his bodie , saieth S. Iohn . Then the bodie of Iesus Christ is the Temple of God , & God is not his temple . See whether this be not a notable argument to deceiue the simple man , that is not vsed to read , how the doctours expound these hard places . And moreouer they did alleage S. Paul in the first to the Colloss. where hee doeth saie , that the plenitude or fulnes of diuinitie doeth dwell in Iesus Christ corporallie , they do alleage this place greatly to their purpose , to proue , that God is b b In him as in : left out I thin e. a Temple , that is to saie , by grace , & not being vnited . For the third place , they take the 8. of Iohn , where Christ doth say : He that hath sent me , is with me , and he hath not left me alone . And therefore Theodorus & his fellowes did conclude , that there was no more vnion betweene the diuinity & humanity of our Sauiour , then there is betweene God & vs . Of the which * * ᶜ 1. Cor. 5. S. Paul doeth speake , where he saieth : hee that is ioined to God , c c Well quoted , you would haue saied . 6. is made one spirit with him .

The XXVI . Chapter .

IT doeth suffise , that one maie see by these fellowes , how soone one that is ill disposed may alleage scripture in corrupt sense , to maintain such heresies as these , the which I will not staie to confute : for ( thankes be to God ) they doe not raigne now , for they haue perished and their authours , a a This is but a blind Prophetes dreame . as you shall and your followers , if yee doe not repent in time . And besides this , our Doctours haue fullie answered b b It is wel yet that you wil confesse thus much . by textes of Scriptures these olde heresies , as you maie see in al the ancient ecclesiasticall writers , and confuted them , not onely with pithie reasons , but with the true worde of God , and the authoritie of diuerse generall councels . And if I haue noted here some part , both of their authours , and of them , to shew , how they did seeke to confirme their damnable opinions , I doe it , only to warne the simple people , that they should not so soone giue eare to false Pastours , which haue nothing in their mouthes but the holie scripture , and the pure word of God , couering the cuppes of their poison with the gold and pretious stones , which they haue taken from the image of the eternall king , to paint those subtill Foxes , that will leade them all to damnation . And therefore in the name of God I doe desire those , that are not much vsed to reade the Scriptures , nor to heare how the Church and the doctours doe expound the hard places , a a So doe we , but not to driue them from reading them , but to shew them , hat they must be read and searc●ed diligently . to beware , how they reade them , for feare of falling into errour , taking onelie the letter , which manie times hath a contrarie sence to that , that is outwardlie writen . For if so manie men of great learning & excellent vnderstanding haue found such great rocks in this rough sea , which haue manie times ouerthrowen their shippes : how dangerous then must it needes bee vnto those , that will take it in hande , so doubtfull a nauigation , hauing little skill or none at all . But as for you my masters of the contrarie side , you can saile with all tides & all windes , giuing the gouernance of the shippe or the guiding of the sterne , without consideration b b This is a meere slander . to all kinde of people . We haue at this daie in France ( I will not saie in England ) manie that haue the holie spirit , Interpreters of the scriptures : And for sooth , what are they ? Mary , Pedlers , Coblers , Tanners , Bankrouts , Runnegates , & such others : which hauing no other liuing , c c Here the authour bewrayeth himselfe rather to haue beene an English man , then a French . For when this should be wr●ten there were no Lord Bishops in France to make such , but papists . sue to my Lord Bishop , and hee makes them ministers , beeing not one of them , but hath the holie spirite : d d All this is but slanderous rayling & lying , for we doe not , say or thinke thus : but cry vpon Bishop , that they admit no suc vnfit me● , and we call vpon such , rather humbly to content them selues with the places of earners , then to presume , without sufficient knowledge , to be teachers . for assoone as they can saie , the Lorde , and raile vpon the Pope , the Bishops , and all the learned men that haue beene in times past , Oh , these are great doctours , no place of scripture to them is hard , all the ancient doctors were men , & the generall councels did erre . I knowe , that you doe maintaine your opinion with the saying of * * ᵉ John . 8. Christ , alleaging it as other hereticks haue done , the which is , That the heauenly father hath hid these high and profound thinges from the great Clerkes , and hath reuealed them vnto the meeke and humble .

This is true , but it ought to be vnderstoode , to the humble and meeke of spirit , and not to those which trust so much to their owne wittes , beeing puffed vp with arrogant ignorance , that they thinke to know more in three daies reading , then the doctours could in fiftie yeares studie , faming themselues to be like the Apostles , as if that God , gouerned by their appetites , did send euerie moneth the feast of Pentecost . c c Mat. 11. you should haue saied .

The XXII , XXIII , XXIIII , XXV , & XXVI . Chapter .

NEither our owne Doctors , nor any thing els that yet you haue saied ( for all your great brag ) haue any force either to disproue that lawfulnes of our vocation , or to condemne our religion . Neither is it true , that we stand so much vpon our extraordinary calling , as you would insinuate to your reader . For we tel you , that if you take ordinary calling in your owne sence , if ther be any good at al , in that Wickliffe , Iohn Hus , Luther , Bucer , and the rest that haue bene the first & formost in these late daies in detecting the errours of the papacy , and in renuing the light of the gospel , had that kinde of calling . And as for the rest since , they haue had a better ordinary calling than that , in that it hath bene more agreeing to the order of calling by the Apostles and primatiue Church . But in that , to expresse what you meane by our extraordinary calling ( you say ) that therby you meane a calling without commission of the pastours and bishops &c. I perceiue that therefore it is , that you charge many of our ministers to preach the gospel extraordinarily , because ( howsoeuer otherwise they had , before they tooke vpon them any dealing in the ministry , the ordinary calling allowed of in the reformed Churches of Christ , where they were to exercise the same ) they tooke not first any of your popish orders , at the hands of some of your popish lord bishops , after your popish maner . In which sort I graunt you , many of our ministers haue an extraordinary calling : but then I say vnto you againe , that their extraordinary calling ( hauing an eie to that order that Christ and his Apostles left in this case vnto the Church ) is more ordinary , then the ordinary calling that you speake of . And therefore though their calling of late daies here amongst vs , hath not bene according to your order , & that they haue neither beene chosen by your pastours , nor had imposition of hands of your Lord bishops , yet you cannot say truely , that any of them take vpon them extraordinarily , that is , as you expound it , without the commission of the pastours and bishops to preach the Gospel . Name the man , time , and place , you cannot when and where , any that is accounted amongst vs a sound preacher of the gospell , hath either sayed , that thus hee ought to be receaued to preach the gospell , or hath attempted so to doe . For it is generally held and receiued of al the Churches , that professe the gospell , and so lykewise is their vniforme practise , that none be suffered to take vpon them to preach the gospel , vnlesse it be knowen and sufficiently appeare , that by the ordinary calling of some according to the order of the Church , where hee is ordered , he be sufficiently authorished so to doe . And wel knowen it is , that there is no Church that professes the Gospel indeed , but the order thereof is , that none meddle in the ministry therein , without commission ( as it pleaseth you to speake ) either from some conuenient number of pastours , or from some bishop , or from both , by the order of that church appointed to looke to , and to take care of that busines . As for the Anabaptists , a captaine whereof you named in the former Chapter , we know , that in their fantastical spirit , they both hold and practise , as here you charge vs , but therin and therfore we dislike & condemne them as much as you . And you know we renounce communion with them , we count them heretickes , & therfore sundry of vs purposely haue writ large and vehement bookes against them : you doe vs therfore great wrong to charge vs with that which is their fault , & which you cannot proue to be ours . But you wil say , I am sure ( for in your former Chap. you seeme to deriue Muncer the Anabaptist his petigree from Luther ) that we may worthely so be charged , for they are such as spring of and from vs . But herein againe you offer vs as great wrong , as the seruants of the good seeds man that sowed only good seed in his field , should haue done him , if they had saied , that the tares that came vp therewith in the same field , had beene there sowed by him : because when Christ his Apostles and faithfull ministers had first preached the gospel , there were found in the same age , springing vp with the same , & amongst the professours therof , Ebionites , Cerinthians , Nicolaitans , Simonists , and sundry other fantastical heretickes , as Hymeneus , Philetus , Hermogines and Phygetus : was it any reason therefore that Christ or any of his faithfull ministers , or that the gospel it selfe should be charged with their fond conceits ? And yet as absurd & sencelesse as this kinde of dealing were , it is both here with you oft in this your booke , & vsuall is it with all of your spirit , this now for want of better matter against vs , by this means with the simple people to labour the discredit and disgrace both of vs , our churches , and religion .

But you content not your selfe with falsely charging vs to say , that we ought to be receiued to preach the gospel extraordinarily , but also you lay to our charge , that we seeke still to defend an ill cause , and an extraordinary commission . This you onely say , as your maner is , but neither proofe nor shadow of proofe you bring , neither indeede can you . For our cause is the very trueth , and our commission is but that ordinary commission of teaching , and confirming the same vnto men , that Christ hath left by his owne ordinance to all his faithfull ministers vnto the worlds ende . And for proofe hereof we appeale indeede to the holy scriptures , which in this case euen for the reason by you alleadged , wee are not ashamed to confesse to be the sound touchstone of trueth , and to be preferred in credit before miracles . Yet you some thing amplifie and adde vnto our speech , in that you say we affirme , that the scriptures as they are alleadged by vs alone , ought to bee of more credit then all the miracles wrought by the Apostles . Well , this our reason , to iustifie our cause and commission , you say is a notable way to deceaue the simple and vnlearned . I wonder that you were not ashamed and affraied so to write . For you cannot be ignorant , that to confute errour , to proue trueth , to exhort to vertue , and to dehort from vice , Christ and his Apostles , and so from time to time , the ancient fathers , what aduersaries soeuer they had to deale withal , vsed alwaies to flie to this touchstone , and for the most certaine concluding of their purpose , did alleadge scripture : but your shift will be , that these alleadged the scripture rightly , which you speake not of , and we alleadge the scripture corruptly and in a wrong sense , & therefore you would haue your words in all this your discourse against our alleadging of scripture , to bee taken as writen not simply against alleadging of scripture , but against alleadging it as we doe . Then I answer , that that you should haue proued , that we alleadge the scripture in a wrong sense , but this you haue not once gone about : only you proue that bare alleadging of scripture cannot , nor may not so countenance our cause as we pretend , for that sundry heretickes haue countenanced their heresies by alleadging scripture , and that often very plentifully . About this you spend sundry Chapters , and withall to shew your selfe to be able , if you list , to be a cunning in wresting of the scriptures as any of the heretickes you mention : all which is to no purpose , vnles withall you had proued ( which you shall neuer be able to doe ) that we alleadging them , doe alleadge them so likewise . For we are not so simple or ignorant , that we know not , that the scripture hath beene and may be misalleadged , as you write , and therefore we neuer go about to perswade the people , that they must and ought to beleeue vs for our bare alleadging of scripture : but for that by the sound rules of interpreting of them , we proue forcibly and inuincibly vnto their consciences , that we alleadge them according to their true and natiue meaning . We call vpon them with Christ to search the scriptures themselues Iohn 5 , 39. and with Paul we exhort them so to trauaile therein , as that they may haue the worde of God dwell euen in themselues plentifully in all wisedome . Coloss. 3.16 . that so according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11 . and the doctrine of S. Iohn , they may trie the spirits of them that would seeme to teach them a right , before they beleeue them , 1. Iohn 4.15 . we confesse gladly with Peter 2. Epist. cap. 1. 20. 21. that no prophesie nor part of the scripture , is of any priuate interpretation , and all such interpretations we count and iudge priuate and humane ( whosoeuer gyues or allowes them ) that are not indeede soundly agreeing with the minde of the authour of the scripture , the holy Ghost . And therefore we hold and teach , for asmuch as the naturall man vnderstandeth not the thinges of the spirit of God . 1. Cor. 1.15 . that no man in alleadging and citing of the scripture● , is to trust to his owne wisedome or learning ; but according to the counsell of S. Iames , finding himselfe in this case to lacke wisedome , we exhort all men , and thinking it needefull our selues , before we take vpon vs to interprete them , to aske wisedome of God , and that hartelie and faithfully , that we may wisely , truely and sincerely open them vnto the people : we know and saie with Basil 2. libro contra Eunomium , that the word of God is not in the sound and words of the scripture , but in the sense ; and with Hierom vpon the first Chapter of the epistle to the Galathians , wee are readie alwaies to acknowledge that the gospell lies not in the words of the scripture , but in the sense , not in the outward shew , but in theinward marow , not in the leaues of speech , but in the root of reason . Now this sound sence of the scripture we take onely to be that , which the authour thereof thereby intended , for the better finding out whereof , after inuocation and praier vnto God , for the direction of his spirit , to leade vs aright thereunto , wee thinke it very necessarie , that no good meanes that we can haue vse of , be omitted . And therefore to this ende , we labour for the knowledge of tongues and artes , we consider of the phrase , of all the circumstances , haue before our eies the manifest & agreed on summe of Christian faith and good maners , confer place with place , diligently reade the writings both of ancient writers and newe : and that we resolue to be the true since , which we finde , stands best with the lawfull and good vse of all these . In alleadging of them this course we take , to make it appeare , that by the sound rules of interpreting the scriptures , they are rightly cited by vs ; wee stand not therefore vpon the bare and onely cyting of them , howsoeuer that be ( as you would insinuate ) but vpon the right and sound alleadging thereof ; which you can neuer proue , is common to vs with other heretiques . For howsoeuer they and you ioyne with vs in often alleadging the Scriptures for your defence , yet neither they nor you , ioyne with vs in right alleadging of them , in that you and they alleadge them for the maintenance of your errours and heresies , contrary to the true sence thereof , and the sound rules of interpreting of them , and we according to the true sence of the Catholicke church , standing well with those rules , to confirme the Catholicke faith . And yet ( as I saied ) to this ende serueth what soeuer you haue writen in this Chapter , and in three or foure moe following , namely to proue , that the deuill , & heretiques , and others ( as you write ) haue by wresting & wrong interpreting the scriptures alwaies laboured to countenance their heresies . This we graunt to be most true you see , & yet thereby you haue gained nothing against vs . For we stand still vpon this , & may doe for all this , that if we haue the Scriptures indeede in true sence on our side , thereby we and our doings are so sufficiently iustified , as that we neede no further iustification .

These fiue Chapters , as they tend to the proofe of one and selfe-same matter , so haue I thought good ioyntly to frame an answere to them togither . Be it graunted therefore vnto you , that all these heretiques ( as you haue writen and reported of them ) alleadged the Scripture and consequently ( as hereupon you inferre cap. 26. ) that one may see , how the ill disposed may alleage scripture , in a corrupt sence , to maintaine such heresie , as these . To what ende haue you done all this ? It appeareth chap. 22. you entered first into this discourse , to proue , that though we haue the scripture on our side , which we alleadge , yet we are not therby sufficiently defended : and now hereupon onely you would inferre & conclude , that a man may see , how the ill disposed may alleadge Scripture in a corrupt sence , to confirme such heresies , as these : which we graunt to be most euident : and yet it remaineth vndisproued , that if we haue the Scripture , which we alleadge , on our side , we are thereby sufficiently defended . For none of these , nor any that alleadged Scripture . as they did , though they alleadge the words of the scripture , haue the scripture indeede on their sides : because if a man haue not the true sence thereof on his side , he hath not the scripture indeede and trueth on his side .

But perhaps you will say , that you intended onely in this discourse this conclusion , that you haue gathered thereupon , & set downe in the beginning of your 26. Chapter : then say I , you made an obiection against your selues in our name cap. 22. which you thought to heauy & harde for you , & therefore you thought good , thus to slip from it by and by againe . For you were neuer so simple , as to thinke , that we were of that opinion , that we accounted our selues to haue those scriptures , which wee alleadged on our side to iustifie vs & our doctrine , euen for the bare alleadging of the words , how far soeuer we were from the true meaning . But you beginne in your 26. to tell vs , what further meaning you haue had therein , as namely , hereby to warne the simple people , that they should not giue eare vnto false pastours , that haue nothing in their mouthes but the scripture , & the pure word of God And hereupon you take occasion most earnestly to perswade those , that are not much vsed to reade the Scriptures , nor to heare how the church & the doctours doe expound the hard places , to beware how they reade them for fear of falling into errour . Indeede as long as you would haue them hereby onely to take heede of rash crediting false pastours , which would countenance their damnable doctrine with such allegations ; I like well , and allow of your warning hereupon giuen against such : but then I can assure you this withall , that rather your Popes , Bishops , & pastours will be found these false pastours , then they whom you meane . I like also very well , that not only such as you speake of , but further that men of all sorts , how much soeuer exercised in the reading of the scriptures , or acquainted with the exposition of the Church or doctours , should be at all times wary and carefull in reading of the Scriptures , in what sence they take them . For I graunt ( as you inferre ) that if so many men of great learning haue so dangerouslie mistaken them , it is possible enough , that men that haue little skill or none at all , may as dangerously misunderstande them . But yet vpon these wordes , either to discourage the pastour from countenancing and defending his true doctrine , by the Scriptures , & pure word of God , or to discourage the simple people from reading and studying the Scriptures ( which I feare herein was your secrete purpose , though for shame you durst not plainely set it downe ) I tell you is deuilish and Antichristian . For though it be true , that the deuill for wicked purpose ( as you note in you twenty two Chapter ) alleadged scripture to Christ , Mat. 4. out of Psal. 91. and all these heretiques alleadged scripture for the countenancing of their damnable heresies , yet that droue not Christ , nor true Christians from alleadging the scriptures to confute them , and to confirme the trueth , as it appeareth by Christes answere to Sathan Mat. 4. and by the writings of the ancient fathers against these heretiques . And the hardnesse that it hath pleased God to leaue in the Scriptures is not such , but as that notwithstanding , the simplest may reade and trauell in the Scriptures with great profit , howsoeuer it pleaseth you to insinuate in your taunting maner ( ca. 26. ) that artificers may not haue the spirit of God and bee profitable readers and vnderstanders thereof . For euery one that would be blessed , is to take delight in the lawe of god , and to shew that his delight , by meditating therein day & night . Psalm . 1. and Christ hath commanded all his hearers indifferently , to search the scriptures Iohn . 5. And for all the hardnes , that is in them , we reade , Psal. 19. that the testimonie of the Lord giueth wisedome vnto the simple , and his commandements giue light vnto the eies . And therefore the holy ghost in Dauid speaking of the scriptures of the olde Testament ( which were then harder , then they be now , being so opened as they be now by the accesse of the new Testament ) saieth thus , Thy word is a lanterne vnto my feete , and a light to my paths , Psal. 119. Wherefore Peter in his 2. Epist. & 1. cap. calleth the writings of the Prophets , a light that shineth in a darke place ▪ and therefore much more he accounted the scriptures of the new testament lightsome , which it seemeth in the verie same place he had an eie vnto , adding , that they did well to attend to the former , vntill the day dauned , and the day starre arose in their har●● ( which by meanes of the Scriptures of the newe Testament might bee ) though I forget not , that the same Peter in the same Epist. chap. 3. wrote also , that amongst the things writen by Paul in his Epistles , concerning the later daies , there are some things hard to be vnderstoode . For I remember also , that yet he noteth , to whom they are so , saying , which they that are vnlearned , and vnstable , peruerte : as they doe the other Scriptures , vnto their owne destruction : for to such nothing is plaine inough , to preserue or keepe them from thus doing . Vpon which groundes ( howsoeuer ) you and your fellowes with such like discourses as this , would discourage the simple and vnlearned from reading the scriptures ) Origen wisheth , that al would doe as it is writen , Search the Scriptures , in his 2. Hom. vpon Esay . And Hierom noteth vpon these wordes Colosse. 3. Let the word of God dwell in you plentifully &c. that euen laymen ought to haue the word of God , not onely sufficiently , but also abundantly dwelling in them . And therefore Augustine in his 55. sermon de tempore , saieth generally vnto his hearers , It is not sufficient , that yee heare the deuine scriptures in the Church ; but also in your houses either reade them your selues , or els desire some other to reade them , and giue you diligent eare to them . And Chrysost: likewise in his 9. Homil: vpon the Coloss. is verie earnest to perswade seculare men ( as you call them ) to get them the Bible , or at the least the new Testament , to be their continuall teachets : and in his 3. Homil: vpon Mat. he saieth plainely , that this as a plague marreth , or infecteth all , that some thinke , that the reading of the Scriptures pertaineth onely to monkes . And these exhortations tooke such place in the ancient time , that Hierom vpon the 133. Psalm saieth , that both maried men and their wiues then had this contention , and not monkes onely , who could learne most Scriptures . Whereof came such profit , that howsoeuer your gibing spirit can not digest the like in these daies , Theodoret in his 5. booke of the nature of man , writeth that men in his time might commonly see , that their doctrine was not only knowen of them , that were doctours of the Church , and masters of the people ; but also euen of Tailers , Smithes , Weauers , & of al artificers : yea and not onely of learned women , but also of labouring women , as Sewsters , Seruants and Handmaides : yea he goeth further saying , that not onely citizens vnderstoode the same , but also cuntrie people , and amongst them Ditchers , Deluers , Cowherdes and Gardiners , and that in such sorte , as that you should then heare them disputing of the Trinity , and of the creation of all thinges .

And as for the obiection , that you terrifie them so much withal , of the hardnes therein , the ancient fathers haue met with that also , and would not haue them thereby in any case discouraged from following this counsell , whereby they are stirred vp to heare 〈◊〉 them . And therefore Origen in his 20. Homil: vpon Iohn saieth , It may be saied , the scriptures are harde , yet notwithstanding i● thou reade them , they shall doe thee good : and Hierom no●●th that it is the fashion of the Scripture , after harde thinges to 〈◊〉 other things , that be plaine : in his 19. Homil: vpon Esay . But Augustine , belike meeting in his time with your forefathers , of whom yee haue learned this obiection , hath these wordes in his 5. books against Iulian , yee enlarge and lay out with many wordes ( a● nothing is more vsuall with you ) how harde a matter the knowledge of the scripture is , and meete onely for a fewe learned men : and therefore in his 3. booke and 26. cap. of Christian doctrine hi● giueth vs this rule , to expound darke places by more plaine places which ( saieth hee ) is the surest way of declaring the scriptures , to expounde one scripture by another : & in his 2. booke and 3. chap. of the same matter , he writeth , that in those which are conteined , euidently in the scriptures , are found al things that conteine f●●th , maners , hope and loue . But Irenaeus in his 1. booke , chap. 3 ●●●teth simply , that the scriptures are plaine . And Chrysost: in his first Homil: vpon Math. and vpon the 2. Thess: 2. writeth that the scriptures are easie to the slaue , husbandman , widow , & children , and that all things be plaine and cleare therein . And yet I 〈◊〉 needes adde with Epiphanius , onely to the children of the holy ghost , are the scriptures plaine and cleare in his 2. booke : and with Solomon , knowledge is easy to him , that will vnderstand : Prou. 14.6 . For the naturall man perceiueth not the thinges of the spirit , for they are foolishnes vnto him : neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned . 1. Cor. 2.14 . Of whom that S. Peter , 2. Epist. 3. might giue vs to vnderstande hee onely meant , he calleth them , to whom those thinges in S. Pauls Epistles ( whereof he speaketh ) are harde , and whose fashion it is to misunderstand not only those things , but also the rest of the Scriptures how plaine soeuer , both vnlearned , & also vnstable : which is an argument of want of the spirit of God , & of all true desire indeede to finde knowledge , wheresoeuer it be . And it may be , this is the cause , why the scriptures seeme hard vnto you of the church of Rome , because you are led by the spirit of your Pope , which is but a man , & often times an ignorant , & wicked man , to vnderstand the scriptures , and haue indeede no true acquaintance with the spirit of God , nor any true desire after knowledge , but rather after ignorance , because that is the best foundation of your Religion . And therefore ( as the fashion is ) you measuring another 〈…〉 by your owne , happily iudge them to be as hard to all others , as to your selues , and thereupon by the hardnes thereof , discourage them from reading them , as much as you can . I am sure , whatsoeuer you , or any of your fellowes prate hereof , that therein is conteined the will and testament of our heauenly father , and that this pertaineth to simple and vnlearned artificers , as well as to the great learned men of this world . For therein and thereby I know , that God is no accepter of persons : and therefore so far of is it , that any hardnes of tearmes or phrases therein conteined to expresse vnto them , or bequeath vnto them their heauenly fathers behestes and bequestes , should driue them from the reading and studying of them , that so much the more paines and diligence they ought to vse to atteyne to the right sence thereof . For we see in our earthly fathers will , the harder the tearines and phrases be , wherein he hath giuen vs any thing , or willeth vs to doe any thing , nature & reason hath taught vs , not therefore to take and bestow lesse paines & cost , but a great deale more , to seeke to vnderstand the same , how much more ought it to be so in this case ? And I am perswaded , that oure heauenly father hath so tempered hardnes with plainenes , & plainenes with hardnes in the scriptures , that the plainenes might allure and encourage euery simple man to reade & study them , with hope to vnderstand them ; & that the other might admonish him to be no negligent , but a careful & wise peruser of them : & so both together make euery one a willing and studious reader of them . Which ( it should seeme ) both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessours , & Gregory in his epist: to Leander had obserued , in noting , that God had so ordred the scriptures , as the therein he had prouided for the strong man meate , & for the weakling milke : and that there both the Elephant might swimme , and the lambe safely wade .

These things notwithstanding , & whatsoeuer else might be saied further to this purpose , I perceiue that you in this your long discourse of the hereticks , abusing and wresting the scriptures , cared not how litle otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose , so the thereby you might gaine thus much , as by such experiments , to withdraw the mindes of men from the loue & study of the scriptures . For I know they greatly comber you & stand in your way , and therefore by your wils you cared not , if the people neuer hearde of them , wherof you haue giuen an inuincible demonstration in that you haue kept them hidden and shut vp from them as long as you 〈◊〉 , vnder the close bushell of an vnknowen tongue . And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwise beene sufficiently bewrayed , by the vnreuerent and disgracing speeches vttered by your chiefe & great Champions against them , as it is well knowen , too too often . For first for their authority ( though now some of your side would seeme in that point to speake more modestly ) not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you , in the first booke and second Chapter of his Hierarchie , hath flatly writen that all authority of scripture now , necessarily dependeth vpon the authority of the Church , For otherwise we could not beleeue them , but because we beleeue the Church that giues testimony vnto them , adding further , that Marke and Luke were not of themselues sufficient witnesses of the gospell , and that the gospels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion , but rather to be subiect thereunto . And Ecchius , another great doctour of yours of the same time , in his Enchiridion , writing of the authority of the church , saieth , that the scriptures were not of authenticke authority , but through the authority of the Church : and therefore he boldly affirmeth , that to say , that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church , is hereticall , and the contrary is Catholicke . And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge , that one of your crue ( meaning thereby one Herman ) had not beene ashamed to say , that the scriptures should haue had no greater estimation or credit then AEsops fables , but for the testimony of the church . Hosius a Bishop and Cardinall of yours , writing against the saied Brentius , in his third booke ( being of the authority of the scripture ) defends it as well inough spoken : for ( saieth he ) vnles the church had taught vs which is scripture Canonicall , it could haue had small authority with vs . Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book & seuenth Chapter of his places of diuinity , that it appears not to vs that the scriptures are of God , but by the testimony of the Church , insomuch that she must determine ( saieth he ) what bookes be Canonicall , and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into , or out of the Canon . Of the same iudgement is Canisius in his Catechisme ca. 30. sect. 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine , with a great rabble moe of your writers of greatest account since Luther . And this position so liked Ecchius , that in the place before cited , he writes of the margent , Achilles , against this position , to insinuate , that this is a speciall tried captaine of yours . And yet when all comes to all , your meaning all this while is by the Church , to vnderstand onely the Pope , forasmuch as none but hee , hath the tongue of the Church in weelding . For Catherin in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth , that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon scriptures : which is also Canus fift proposition in effect , in the Chapter before named . This being your meaning , & Leo the tenth being one of your Popes , what Canonicall authority haue you left the scripture , if it be true that is writen of him , that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall , contemptuously saied , speaking of the Gospell , that that fable of Christ had beene very profitable vnto them ? And as for the vncertainty of the sence & insufficiency of them , who knoweth not , what cost vsually alwaies vpon euery light occasion you are ready to bestow , in amplifying the hardnes of them , & in either preferring therefore , or equalling the vnwriten word , with you call the liuely practise of the church , before them , both for plainnes & sufficiency . When you are in this vaine , both the fathers of Colen shall be iustified , and Piggius also by your Andradius , Orthodox : Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they compared the scriptures to a nose of waxe , & he to a leaden lesbian rule , and to their further disgrace , Canus may tearme them a dead iudge , which can neither heare nor speake , in his Chapter & booke before named ; & in like sorte others in the following of this comparison , with your good allowance , shall & may call them incken diuinity , & what else they list , as we often haue shewed you , and them the onely rest vpon them , scripture men , or men whose Religion and diuinity , lieth in rags & skins of beasts , because of such things the bookes are made wherein they are conteined . Many beastly & blasphemous speeches and assertions thus tending to the disgrace of the Canonicall scriptures , any man that list may finde Lyndans three first bookes of his panoply , Hosius booke de expresso Dei verbo , & his triple dialogue , Cusans 2. Epist. ad Bohemos & 7. Andradius , Florebellus , Priereas , & almost all your famous writers of these later daies , euery where full oft , where they haue any occasion to weaken those arguments , that we vse against you , either for that you are in your positions , wherein we dissent from you , without warrant of scripture , or that they are contrary to scripture . And when we vrge you that of what credit soeuer the tradition of the church be , that you so pleade for , yet if it be the word of God aswel as the scripture , then it must needes be , that it agreeth with the scripture , & is , not contrary vnto it , for as much as God is alwaies one & selfesame and therfore alwaies agreeing with himselfe , & therefore presse you with that which by the wordes & circumstances of the text of the scripture , we are sure is the true sence thereof , & therfore the vndoubted word of God , them you , euen the greatest of you , are driuen to these poore & base shifts , to cry out with Cardinal Hosius in his 4. booke against Brentius , & in his booke de expresso Dei verbo before named , that scripture , as it is alleaged of Catholiques , it is the word of God , but as it is alleadged of heretiques , the expresse word of the Deuill , or as he saieth also in the later booke , if any haue the exposition of the Roman church of any place of scripture , although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whither & how it agreeth with the words of the scripture , yet he hath the very word of God . And when all comes to all , though sometime you would make the pore simple people beleeue , that in expounding the scriptures you will follow the vniforme consent of holy fathers and councels , yet both this Cardinall Hosius in his triple dialogue , and Cardinal Cusan in his 2. Epist. ad Bohemos tell vs , & teach vs plainely to vnderstand you , that you meane no other sence than agreeth with the present practise of the Roman church , when tha● sence is giuen : not once blushing to confesse , that according to the variablenes of the fashion and practise of that church , the scriptures must be vnderstood , and therefore Cusan commends that obedience that is yeelded thereunto simply without reasoning , as the Oxe or Asse obeys his master . For whatsoeuer sometimes , you talke of Popes not erring , & of the not erring of generall councels , or of the authority of the fathers , none that haue any thing craueiled in tracing you into your starting holes when otherwise you see you must needs be pinched & taken to your shame , but he , easily seeth , that in trueth none of these , no nor all these togither with the scriptures themselues , are of any credit and authority with you against the present practise of your Roman Church . One father , or the present Pope if he speake & hold with that , though all the fathers beside are of another minde , & thogh neuer so many of his predecessors held otherwise , yet farewell they , in this case ; you will and must preferre this one , before all the other . These things being most true , & notoriously knowen to all men , that with any indifferency haue traueiled in the controuersies betwixt you & vs , euery one hath cause to see , howsoeuer somtimes you would seeme to yeeld some thing to the authority of the scriptures , that you are at a flat point , that neither they nor any authority els of man , or men , old , or new , shall or may retaine any sence of force , against the present practise and receaued opinion of your sinagogue . And as long as you are at this point , whatsoeuer you haue said of heretiques abusing of scripture , as though you were the only men that had care rightly to vse them & vnderstand them , euery simple body may see , that of all men you are they , by the variablenes of your Romish church practise , which are most likely to make a nose of waxe , and leaden rule both of the letter of the scriptures , and sence thereof . And therefore whereas in your 23. c. you boldly affirme , that to draw the scriptures by violence into a wrong sence , is the maner of interpreting the scriptures , called at this day the pure word , by those that haue professed as long as they liue to be enemies to the trueth , most fitly may be vnderstoode of your selues ; for you are so in loue with the present practise , fashion and opinion of your Roman church , that though that vary neuer so often , euen so often must the scriptures will they , nill they , vary and alter their sense .

Howbeit I am not ignorant , but that in so writing you meant vs , though I am sure you shall neuer be able to proue vs , either to haue professed at all any enmity with the truth , or so to vse to wrest the scriptures . But because this is a matter of great importance , and therfore such as cannot be determined , either by your yea , or our nay , it shal not be amisse vpon this occasion , to consider , what sound rules of interpreting there be , that by the same it may be tried , whither your interpreting of the scriptures or ours , deserue thus to be called a drawing of the scriptures by violence to a corrupt sence . The vniforme consent of doctors you would often seeme ( as I haue saied ) in this case to make reckoning of , as of a sound and Apostolicke rule of interpreting them by , but this is but for a fashion , for you haue giuen vs & doe daily manifest proofes , that when but one or two against all the rest of them hold with your currant and present practise of your Roman church that now is , that that one or two of them ouer wey with you al the rest . And besides , if this were a necessary rule , then none could be interpreters of the scriptures , but those that had all or the most part of the doctours to peruse , few or none , then ancient doctors & writers there haue beene so many , & their names are so vnknowen to most , could be sure when they had the consent of the most and best on their side , and so neuer should be sure of the sence : and for many places very little or nothing oftentimes haue they writen . Though therefore we will not shunne the trial of our interpretations with you by this rule , yet we account these more certaine rules & helps to finde out the true sence : first that the true Grammaticall sence of the words , and speech vsed by the holy ghost bee soundly and rightly vnderstoode by sound knowledge of Grammer & Rhetoricke , for the natiue signification of the words and vse of the phrase : whereunto much helpeth conference of translation with translation : & of all transtations ( if neede be ) with the originall tongues . Secondly , that diligent consideration be had of the circumstances of the text in hand , as namely , what is the matter & scope thereof , vpon what occasion it was vttered , who vttered it , to whom , where , & when . Thirdly , that it be taken in such a sence , as will agree best with these circumstances , and stand well with all other places of scripture . And lastly , that no sence be admitted , but that which will stand with the sound proportion and summe of Christian faith , and good maners , taught vs plainely elsewhere in the scriptures . By these rules we doubt not but to iustifie & approue that to be the true sence of the scriptures , which we take them in , either for the confirmation of the trueth , which we holde ; or for the confutation of the errours , which you defend . And such rules they are , as the ancient fathers , in defending the ancient Catholique faith against heretiques , haue alwaies vsed , and no other , as appeareth in their workes . And such they are , as Augustine in his bookes of Christian doctrine doeth prescribe , as most necessary in this case to be followed , as no man can , or ought to make any exception against . And yet such they are ; as would anone discouer the ridiculous vanity of your interpretations in any controuersie betwixt vs and you . For example , let vs try here by your interpretation of Hoc est corpus meum , which to be sound you will liue and die in . By what grammer , or by helpe of what tongue , or translation shall the word Est , is , be all one with transubstantiatur in , is transubstantiated into ? Sure I am in no language , nor in anie Dictionarie shall you euer finde the verbe Substantiue taken in that sense . Secondly , the matter in hand , when those words were vttered , was a sacrament , & Christ spake them to his Apostles at his last supper , to the ende , to institute a sacrament , to continue a duetifull remembrance of his death , vntill his second comming . What reason is there then to the contrarie , but that this speech should be taken , as the like speech alwaies els hath beene , and yet is in other Sacramentes ? Where , Est , is neuer taken ( coupling the signe and the thing signed togither , whereof a Sacrament consisteth ) as you doe here , for , It is turned into , but for , signifieth ; which standeth also well with the nature of a Sacrament : whereas yours ouerthroweth the nature thereof , in so annihilating or transubstantiating of the signe , that you leaue no signe to beare any analogie of the thing resembled , which is the ground of such Sacramentall phrases . Thirdly , your sence agreeth not with the rest of the scriptures , not onely in that in the whole bodie of the Scriptures , you cannot finde Est , Is , placed ( as it is here ) betwixt two thinges of diuerse kindes , as breade and body be , taken in your sence : and yet in such propositious you finde it vsually taken for it signifieth or representeth : but also in that the scripture ( for all that speech ) calleth it bread still , euen whiles it is in eating , 1. Corin. 10. & 11. cap. and expoundeth the eating thereof to bee a communion , or partaking with , or of the body of Christ , and that spirituall , not by corporall coniunction . 1. Cor. 10. Lastly , your interpretation for the bringing in , & establishing of a corporall & reall eating of Christ , with the mouth of the bodie ( which is a thing neuer taught vs in the word , & but such a kinde of feeding on him , as you your selues confesse Iudas , and such may atteine vnto , and be neuer the better ) shaketh , yea subuerteth al those articles , that concerne Christs true manhoode , making him to haue ( euen for that needles presence sake ) a body without any of the essential and inseparable properties of a body : yea at one & selfesame time , to haue a body visible , sensible , and locall in heauen ; & yet inuisible , insensible , and without dimentions of place in earth . Besides it is against good maners , which forbiddeth eating of mans flesh , and drinking of his bloud , either openly or secretly couered vnder , or in another thing And truely Auerroes had some reason , of all men in the world to thinke such Christians , as you , the most sauage and foolish , that first would fal downe , & worship a peece of bread for your God , & when you haue so done eate him vp , and deuour him . Howsoeuer you please your selues in this interpretation , and in your imagination grounded thereupon , I am fully perswaded , that this , & your multitude of images and idols are two of the principall causes , whereby you haue hardened the hearts both of the Turkes and Iewes against Christian Religion . And ( as I haue read ) some of them haue to some of your fellowes , being in hand to perswade them to turne from their Religion to yours , yeelded these two reasons , why they thought yours worse , then their owne , and consequently as sufficient cause , why they would not yeelde to yours .

Now if I should but barely recite a number of other your interpretations and collections of the scripture , which yet with you go for very sound and Catholique interpretations , & collections , I am sure , it were sufficient to make euery reader thereof , that hath anie witte or discrecion left him , to thinke that there were neuer heretiques in the world , that haue more fondly & vainely interpreted the scriptures , then you . For example , let the reader marke these for a tast . God made two great lights , the sunne & the moone : that is , the Pope & the Emperour : & therefore as many degrees as the moone is inferiour to the sonne , is the Emperour inferiour to the Pope : Innocent : de Maioritate & obedient : & Glossa , Ibid. Peter saied , he had two swords : that is , the temporall & spirituall sword : & therfore the Pope hath both powers . Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the councell of Trent , blusheth not to apply to the Pope these words , The Pope the light is come vnto the world , & men loue darknes more , then light . Euery one the euill doeth , hateth the light , & commeth not to the light , least his deedes be reproued . Yea Paulus Aemilius in his 7. booke testifieth , that the Pope suffred the Legates of Cicilia , being prostrate before him , to say vnto him , Qui tollis peccata mundi , Thou which takest away the sins of the world , haue mercy vpon vs : Thou which takest away the sins of the world , graunt vs peace : thus blasphemously applying that to the Pope , which belongeth to Christ . But you will say , these were but the popes flatterers , that made these expositions , & applications . What then ? they were made & vttered without checke , yea to the liking of the Pope . And a picture once hanging in S. Mark● church at Venice , sheweth , that Pope Alexander the 3. himselfe treading vpon the necke of the Emperour Fridericke the 1. caused th●se words of the Psalm : Thou shalt walke vpon the Adder , & tread the Cockatrise vnder thy feete & . ( which are properly to be vndersto●● of Christ ) to be proclaimed as verified of that action of his : whereby appeareth , that the Pope himselfe hath gone as farre as his flatterers . That of Paul ( by him vnderstood of those that follow the direction of the old man , and are led in their doings by the flesh ) They that are in the flesh cannot please God . Rom. 8. Siricius a Pope also interpreteth of them , that liue in the estate of mariage . A Bishop must be the husband of one wife , saieth Paul . 1. Tim. 3. that is , by their interpretation , of one benefice ; and so his house and children , that he must well order and gouerne , there also spoken of , be his parish and parishioners . Who so would vouchsafe the reading of your 2. Nicene councell , he should there finde store of such interpretations for the maintenance of images so ridiculously alleadged , as euer were any . And how is it possible , that the Church of Rome , holding those principles , that she doeth , but that you must needes be as violent wresters and rackers of the Scriptures , as euer were . For both Cusan Epist. 2.3.7 . & Hosius de expresso Dei verbo , & in his triple Dialogue , doe teach , that the scriptures must alwaies be interpreted according to the practise of the Church , so that how oft soeuer that change , the sence of the scripture must change also . For still the sence thereof must be fitted to the time , and in no case it may be thought to retaine a sence contrary to the practise of the Church . And now you are fully come to this ( whatsoeuer at any time you talke either of Scriptures , doctours , or councels ) your Pope for the time being hath full power and authority , to interprete all , as one hauing authoritie so to doe for his owne sence . So that in deede and trueth , neither Scriptures , doctours , nor councels , how plaine soeuer their wordes bee to contrarie the doings of your Church , shall cary awaie any sence , to ouerwharte you at all , but will they , nill they , they shal be caused by your Pope to speake on your side . And therefore these thinges considered , you are the men , and not wee , that take the precious ornaments from Epiphanius picture of a king , that you speake of in your twenty three Chapter : and decke the image of a dogge , or of a foxe therewith , that is , ( according to your owne application ) which take the wordes of the Scripture , and by wresting of them , make them serue to countenance your heresies . For heresies , wee holde none , ●●ither doe wee alleadge the Scriptures , but in his true sence , 〈◊〉 by these rules before mentioned , we are alwaies readie to proue . ●nd therefore ( for all your saying to the contrarie ) the Scripture as it is alleadged by vs , shall proue euen that word of God , that shall iudge you , and condemne you , if you repent not : & the sence that you force vpon it , shall proue but the deuise of man , & false doctrine : yea , your whole Religion is but a renuing of olde heresies . For with the Ebionits you will not be iustified by faith onely , Euseb. lib. 3. ca. 24. but also by your owne workes & inherent righteousnes , as the Catharists haue taught you : Isidor : Etymolog : lib. 8. cap. de haeresibus . Of the Manichees , you haue learned your ministring in one kinde : Leo serm. 4. de Quadragesimâ . Marcus that heretique ( who by his inuocations made his followers beleeue , that in the Eucharist he turned the wine into bloud ) hath beene your first schoolemaster for your doctrine of transubstantiation , Epip . haeres . 34. And your multitude of images & your worshipping of them , the Carpocratians haue taught you , as to appeares , Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. & 24. when you commit these idolatries , you haue learned to excuse your selues , to torment your selues and to light candels at noone daies , of the ancient idolaters , Lactantus lib. 2. cap. 2. & lib. 1. cap. 21 , & 6. cap. 2. As the Messalians restrained the force of baptisme to former sinnes ( witnesse Theodoret : diuin. decret: cap. de baptismo ) so doe you . As Montanus taught of purgatory , oblations , and praiers for the dead , and limbus patrum ( Tertullian de coronâ militis ) euen so doe you . As the Collyridians sacrificed vnto the Virgin Mary and worshipped her ; ( Epiphan. haeres : 79 ) so doe you . As the Angelists and Caians gaue diuine honour to the Angels ( Epiphan. haeres. 38 ) so doe you . As Montanus and the Manichees deuised lawes for superstitious fasting ( Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 16. Aug. de moribus Manicheorum lib. 2. cap. 13 ) so doe you . As the Tatians , Encratites and Manichees were iniurious enemies to Matrimony , crying out that it was a carnal life , & therefore forbad it to their elect , and to them that would be perfect amongst them ( August . Epist. 47 ) likewise doe you . And as the Pelagians denyed that to be sin , which ariseth not from reason and wil , ( August contra Iulianum . lib. 3. cap. 5 ) so doe you for the very same reasons , deny concupiscence of it selfe without consent thereunto , to be sinne & ( as there further it appears ) they ascribed to the natural powers strenght to doe spirituall things , and affirmed that a man is to be saued for and by keeping the law , so doe you . Of the Valent●nians also you learned to haue in such price , as you haue , the sign●●f the Crosse , and to abuse places of Scripture for it , as , God forbi● , that I should reioice in any thing , but in the Crosse of Christ , Iren●us lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres . 31. Of the Heracleo●nites you learned your extreame vnction , and other ceremonies , you vse to the dead : Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres . 36. Of the Macionites & Pepusians ( Aug ad Quod. cap. 27 ) you learned to giue women leaue to baptise , Epiphan. haeres . 42. Of the Hemerobaptistes , and of the Ossenes you learned your holy water , holie salte , holie oile , and holy bread : Epiphan. lib. 1 , Tom. 1. cap. 17. & 19. And of the same Ossenes you haue learned also your superstition about reliques , and to pray in an vnknowen tongue , as Elcai their great Pope taught them , Epiphan. haeres . 19. Thus if a man in reading Augustine , Irenaeus and Ephiphanius and others ( that haue laboured in confuting the ancient heretiques ) would diligently marke what heresies and fonde things they held and vsed , he should by and by , by comparing their doings & opinions with yours , finde , that you haue reuiued very many of their rotten and condemned heresies , and that you haue learned most of your Ceremonies of them . And yet as though you of all men were freest , and furthest from all heresie , still you crie out , he retiques , heretiques . But it is but policy , that you haue learned of some theeues , who the better in an hew & cry to escape , ride crying out of theeues , theeues .

But for all this , as though you meant as honestly , as any man could desire , in this 33. Cha. of yours , you tel vs , that you would haue the Scriptures interpreted by him , that did indite them : and therfore you alleage that , 2. Pet. 1. that no prophecy in the scripture is of any priuate motion , or interpretation . For the prophecy came not in old time by the wil of man , but holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy ghost : wherupon you insinuate vnto vs , that you would haue them interpreted by the direction of the same holy ghost : which we are very well contented withal . For indeed , that onely interpretation is sound and good , that commeth from thence , and that is alwaies to be accounted to proceed but from a priuate motion , that hath not ground from thence , though otherwise neuer so great and publique persons , and neuer so manie deuise it , receiue it , and hold it neuer so long . And therefore it is , that we tell you , that your interpretations , though they be countenanced with Popes , doctours , and councels , and what els you will , yet are to be reiected as priuate interpretations , vnles they be warranted by the testimony and authority of the holy Ghost .

But then say you , you challenge this holy ghost , to lead you to the true sence , how shal we beleeue that it dwelleth more in you than in al the vniuersal church , from Christs passion to this time ? I answere you , that we take no such thing vpon vs . For we say , if you vnderstand by the Church , you speake of , Christs Church , which hath from thence continued vnto this day , it hath neuer bene destitute of the same spirit of God , that now leadeth vs into all trueth : otherwise , if thereby you vnderstand onely your own Synagogue of Rome , as the state of it hath beene these later 500. or 600. years at the least , we say , as it hath forsaken the true Christ , and hath set vp another , of an office of her owne deuising , so hath shee beene destitute of his spirit , and hath beene guided but by an humane & foolish spirit . But then you aske vs , where this spirit did rest before we were borne ? Wherunto ( you thinke ) wee can make no other answere , but that 〈◊〉 dwelt in the heartes of the faithfull . And is not this a good answere ? What fault can you finde in it ? Is it not true ? Doeth not Gods spirit dwell indeede in such , yea and in none but such ? Now whereas you thinke , that if you should aske vs againe , where were those faithfull ones , our answere onelie would bee , where the holy Ghost was , and that wee could giue you no directer answere : and so thereat you take your pleasure , saying , that that is to plaie handie , dandie , &c : though if wee should answere you no otherwise , we might doe so with better reason , then your Collier in Hosius , so much commended by him , and some of you else might answere , as he did , who when he was asked , how he did beleeue , answered , as the Church beleeueth : and being demanded , how the Church beleeued , answered , as I beleeue . For the Scripture doeth expressely binde vs , when wee are called , to answere for our faith , that wee should yeelde a reason thereof : 1. Pet. 3. and so it bindeth vs not , to bee alwaies able to make demonstration , who bee the faithfull , and where they dwell from time to time : yet you vnderstand well enough ( if you were disposed ) that wee both can , and haue giuen you a more particuler answere , and that wee haue tolde both the names of the most famous persons , and also where they and their followers haue liued , and dwelt , that beleeued as wee doe , and therefore had the holie Ghost as well as wee . But to let your gibing go , if in earnest you would haue it tried , whither in interpreting the Scriptures you or wee haue the holie Ghost , and so consequently , whither you or wee bee liker these heretiques ( you speake of ) in misinterpreting the Scriptures : your interpretations and ours must bee examined , which will stande best with the rest of the Scriptures , wherein we are sure , the holie Ghost hath spoken : and so they , whose interpretations are found best to agree therewith , sentence must bee giuen on their side , that they haue the holie Ghost , and that the other haue it not . For Chrysostome writing of the holie Ghost gaue this rule , to trie whither Montanus and Manicheus had this spirit , or no , as they bragged : and hereby hee proueth , that Christ taught by this spirit , because hee confirmed his doctrine out of the Lawe and the Prophets , whereas the false teachers could not doe so . Christ himselfe also by his owne example hath taught vs , when the question is betwixt two , about the sence of a sentence of Scripture , yea , though hee that bringeth the wrong sence , be the verie Deuill himselfe , that this is the next , best , and ordinariest waie , to stoppe his mouth , and to make it appeare , that hee hath brought a wrong sence , to see , whither it will stande with some other plaine place of Scripture or no. For when the Deuill had alleadged the ninetie one Psalme in this sence , that the meaning thereof was , that though Christ should throwe himselfe downe head-long , yet his fathers promise was , that hee should take no harme , because by this sence , sathan would haue perswaded him , vpon presumption vpon his fathers protection , to haue tempted him : Christ proueth , that that could not bee the sence of the place ; because it was writen ( as it is Deut. 6. ) Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God . And with this answere sathan , as cunning and malitious , as he was , gaue ouer to replie any further , for the iustifying of his sence , Math. 4.7 . So also Iohn . 5. in that great controuersie , touching the person and office of the Messias , when as the ground thereof was , that his enemies had falsely interpreted the prophesies concerning him , yet Christ for the determination thereof , and to make it appeare , whither they or hee brought the truer interpretation thereof , saieth , Search the Scriptures . And therefore when Paul had preached the Gospell at Berea , it is noted to the commendation of certaine men there , that they searched the Scriptures daiele , whither those things were so : by that meanes labouring to satisfie themselues in this great question , whither Paul , or the Scribes and Pharisees had the spirit of God in interpreting the Scriptures concerning the Messias . And this course all the ancient fathers haue followed ( as appeareth plentifully in their workes ) in the confuting of those heretiques , that you speake of , and all other , and consequently , in determining whither they or themselues had the direction of the holy Ghost in interpreting the Scriptures . And therefore they haue giuen vs rules , to helpe vs in this case , as for example ; Tertullian against Praxeas , hath giuen vs this , Fewer places must bee expounded by the more . Augustine this , The circumstance of the Scripture is woonte to giue light , and open the meaning , in his booke of Questions , quaest: 69. Darke places are to be expounded by more plaine places ; that is the surest way of declaring the scriptures , to expound one scripture by another : in his 3. booke of Christian doctrine , cap. 26. and in those bookes writen of Christian doctrine many moe very profitable . Which way Chrys: thought so sure a way , that he saieth flatly , The holy scriptures expound themselues , and suffer not the Reader to erre , in his 12. Homil: vpon Gen: And yet for all this , to this triall will not you of the Church of Rome be brought , neither for the triall of your interpretations , nor yet for determining of this question , whither you haue the spirit of trueth or no. Christ and his Apostles were contented to put themselues , for triall of their doings , to this , but your Popes thinke scorne to looke so lowe : yea rather they will haue all questions , wherein they are principall parties themselues , tryed by themselues , and you and they crie out , that this is not the readiest way to ende such questions . But who is so madde , as to thinke , that you can finde out a better way , then Christ and his Apostles vsed ? You will send vs ( say some of you ) for the triall of these matters vnto the doctours , and councels , and yet when it commeth to the point , vnles they and their sayings please you , yee reiect them also . And you cannot denie , but that oftentimes also it is farre more disputable and doubtfull , what was their meaning , then what is the meaning of the Scripture : and you know also , that it is an vsuall thing with them , to sende vs backe againe to the Scriptures , for triall of their writings , as it appeareth in Augustines 19. Epist. to Hirom , and in his 111. Epist , to Fortunatian . And therefore indeede ( say you what you will ) this is the safest , surest , and readiest way of triall of this and all other matters in question betwixt vs , to bring all to the touchstone of the scriptures . I would to God therfore , that once you would giue ouer al other bie , and indirect trials , and come onely to this : for then it would quickely appeare , euen to the simple , whither you , or wee were rather to be followed . For all this , we ioyne with you in the later ende of your twenty three Chapter , in warning men to take heede , that they doe not rashly beleeue & follow euery one , that will pretend , that they haue the scriptures on their side . But whereas you write that the heresies , which you will after speake of , & that were condemned by the Catholique church , were as well & more largely confirmed by scriptures , than we can thereby confirme our Religion : therein first you most vntruely report that of vs , as we doubt not , but to make it euident vnto the world , if you would once come to any indifferent trial with vs : & secondly , I must admonish the reader , that these ancient heresies indeed were condemned by the Catholique Church , but that that catholique Church , was not yours , nor as yours now is . For the differences be infinite betwixt yours , & the Church then , by reason whereof , there is as great difference betwixt the Church then , and yours now in effect , as there is betwixt ours now , and yours .

In your recitall of the heretiques abusing the scriptures , diuers things slipt from you also worthy the noting , namely these , that you could not content your selfe , with shewing vs , how they did abuse the Scriptures , in wrong alleaging them , but that ( as though your fingers itched to shew , that you had as good skill therein , as they ) you still intermingle with theirs your owne cunning , in shewing how other places might be abused in like maner , neither confuting in the ende their collections , nor your owne , how dangerous soeuer . Another tricke you haue , in noting the trueths impugned by them , and the maner how they went to worke ( though neuer so vntruly ) yet confidently to set downe , that the things which we impugne in you were holden by the Church in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with them , that they set themselues then against : and that they cried out against traditions of men , and cried onely for the writen word , as we doe ; wheras in trueth few or none of the things we condemne in you , were hatched then : and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their fashion , to flie from the Scriptures , and to accuse them , as you doe , and to vrge traditions , & that they also vsed to vrge other such like grounds for their heresies , as you doe , as I haue shewed cap. 3. The last is , that for the most part you charge them with what you list , not shewing vs where you read or finde ground for these things wherewith you charge them , belike least in turning to the places & examining you proofes , we should to your discredit , haue occasion thereby to discry in you , either some malice , errour , ignorance , or some negligence at the least . For example , how proue you that which you write cap. 22. that the Arrians alleadged as many or more places , then the Catholicks ? Or that the same Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned vs , Hus and his schollers condemning them .

But to passe on from these things , to your conclusion vpon these premisses , and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter , I graunt you , by that which you haue writen in the former chapters , it may be seene that one ill disposed maie soone alleage scripture in a corrupt sence , but what is this to proue , that which you vndertooke cap. 22. that is , that the holie scriptures which we alleage do not iustifie our doings . If you would haue proued this indeed , you should haue proued , that we alleage the scriptures in a wrong sence , as these did that you haue talkt on : but that was to heauie a peece of worke for you , & therfore you thought good not once to meddle with it . But yet as though either you had proued it , or else that it could not but without proofe be graunted you , you boldly affirme , as these hereticks that you haue talkt of , haue perished & their heresies , so shall we & our followers , if we repent not . Wherunto I answere first , that so repentance maie be taken , that it is most true , that not onely we & our followers , but you & yours also , & al men else , must repent , or else we al , you , and al other , shal perish : but taking it , as you doe , for repenting of our religion , & of alleaging of the scriptures which we doe for the maintenance of it against you , you haue saied nothing at al as yet to make vs once to thinke , that we haue any need at al so , or therof to repent . Secondly , I saie that in thus saying , you haue shewed your malice & boldnes more , then any thing else : for you haue therin vttered nothing , but a blind prophets dreame and fansie , which no man of any wisedome or discretion wil make any reckoning of . It is wel yet that the euidence of the trueth , hath enforced you here to confesse , that it maie be seene in al the ancient ecclesiastical writers , that the doctours fully answered by texts of scripture , these old heresies by you before mentioned . For euen therby you maie see , that though heretickes neuer so much misaleage scripture , that yet the true ministers of the Lord , may & must alleage them , euen to answere & to confute their heresies by . And therfore it standeth stil firme , that if we , by alleaging of them aright can proue you heretickes , & your opinions , which we striue against , heresies ( which no further then we can doe , we neuer craue anie credit to be giuen vs ) whatsoeuer you would seeme to haue saied , to beat vs from alleaging of them , that it appears that therby both we , our doings and religion are sufficiently iustified , both before God and man . These misalegers of scripture which in al these Chapters you haue spoken of , you saie , you will not staie to confute , for two causes , because they raigne not now , and their heresies togither with them the authours therof are perished , & because the ancient doctors haue confuted them as you saie : but indeed the reason was , that you were loth to occupie either your selfe or reader , in so profitable a matter . It semeth you tooke more delight , in shewing how the scripture might be misalleaged , to fortifie heresie , then how rightlie alleaged , to confute the same , and therfore you could find leasure to stay 4. or 5 Chap. in that , but not at al vpon this . Besides , if it be true that you haue reported ( if you had wel remembred your selfe ) you would not so generally haue saied , that they were al perished . For read your Chap. ouer again , and you shal finde , that therin you haue spoken of some , that are not so quite dead and perished , but that euen in these daies they need to be confuted . But you say , that with you haue here noted , either of them or of their heresies and their alleaging of scripture for the same , you haue done it onely to giue warning to simple people , that they should not too rashly giue ear to false pastors , which haue nothing in their mouthes , but the holy scripture and the pure word of God , so couering the cups of their poison , with the gold and pretious stones which they haue taken from the image of the eternal king , to paint those subtil foxes , that will lead them al to damnation . If you had indeed done it onely to this end , you had not bene to be misliked : but in deed and trueth , you haue done it , to breed in men a carelesnes and negligence in searching the scriptures , and a contempt of alleaging the same , to determine the controuersies betwixt vs and you . Otherwise thinke as you speake , and we are ready to ioine with you both in this , & also in that which you adde , in wishing the simple and vnlearned in reading the harde places , to take heed they fal not into error , by taking onelie the letter &c. For if great learned men thereby haue bene endangered , how much more may such . But surely this is rather a caue at meet and needful for you then for vs , if we go no further , but to your peeuish taking of the letter of hoc est corpus meum , contrary to al sound rules of right interpreting , as I haue shewed before .

Now , wheras hereupon you take occasion , according to your maner , to ieere at our ministry , as though in France & England especially it were generally vnlearned , and consisted of the basest and most contemptible of the people : you are worthy of smal answere , your speech there about is so apparently false & slanderous . For , God be thanked , in both kingdoms , you your selues are enforced to feele ( to your whole kingdoms griefe and deadly wound in the end I doubt not ) that there are great store of learned ministers and bishops , far other maner of men , then you haue named . And therfore your own conscience could not but tel you , vnles it were seared with a hoate iron , that they doe in neither kingdome commit the guiding of the sterne , without consideration , to al kinde of people . In both places , both their doctrine & publicke order of their churches aimeth at a learned & godly ministry : wherof if in some particulers they faile ( which in so great a multitude and compasse altogither cannot bee auoided ) the faulte is to bee laied in the particuler men , by whose negligence or corruption it so commeth to passe , and not in either of the churches , which would gladly , that no such fault should at all be committed . Howbeit I dare say , howsoeuer you ruffle in your tearms of pedlers Coblers , Tanners , Bankerouts and raunagates , and say that such be our interpreters of the scriptures , and that we hold euery such one , once admitted by a bishop to be a minister , to haue the spirit , and to be great doctours , to whom no place of scripture is too hard , because they can rayle of the Pope , say al the ancient doctours were men , and the generall councels did erre : that yet you can neither proue our ministers to be such , nor that for these balde reasons , wee thinke any so qualified as you write . It pleased you but in this , to shew your spitefull and malicious spirit : but alas who will thinke ( doe you what you can ) that you indeed mislike a base and vnlearned ministry , who not onely haue held ( and yet haue as great cause so to doe stil as euer ) that ignorance is the mother of deuotion , but also vpon that ground , haue all your Church seruice in a tongue , that the people shall not vnderstand , and content your selues , for the most part with such priests , as can scarsely rightly read the same . Truely , if there had bene but a crumme of right modesty & shamefastnes in you , knowing as you doe , the notorious basenes , grossenes , and ignorance of your ordinary masse-priestes , you would neuer haue taken this pleasure , that it seemeth you did , in thus railing on , defacing and slandering of ours .

Indeed by that saying of Christ , Matth. 11. ( by you quoted Ioh. 8. ) when we see what grace and giftes of knowledge God oftentimes amongst vs bestoweth vpon such : in the meane time , beholding in what great blindnes and errour a number of great Rabbins and doctours amongst you walke on still , we take occasion ( as Christ hath taught vs ) to giue thankes to our heauenly father , that hath reuealed these thinges vnto babes , which yet your great wise men , and men of vnderstanding , see not . But you would not haue vs by this place to defend , that such meane men may come to be cunning and skilfull in the Scriptures . Your reasons are two , for that other heretiques haue so alleadged it ; and for that this is to be vnderstood of the humble in spirit , whereas these men of ours , trust to their owne wittes , and are puft vp with arrogant ignorance &c. You thought good yet neither to tell vs what heretikes , when , nor where : howsoeuer , you knowe ( I trust ) that men must not shame wel to vse that Scripture , that heretiques haue abused . Concerning your other reason , I graunt you , the place is to be vnderstood onely of the humble and meeke in spirit , and whosoeuer amongst vs come vnto the scriptures , trusting to their owne wittes , and so puft vp with ignorance ( as you speake ) we vtterly mislike them as much as you . But that you shoulde giue forth this sentence of yours in such general tearmes , against simple & poore men amongst vs , that trauell in the Scriptures , you had neither reason , nor charity in so doing . Commonly such rash iudging of others , proceedeth from a minde euen so qualified , as you charge theirs to be , and from no other fountaine . And who so considereth their grosse ignorance , and errors , that remaine in your great Clerkes , euerie where notwithstanding these scriptures ( what other learning soeuer they pretend ) he hath most iust occasion thereby to iudge , that either they study the scriptures verie little , or els that they come to them with the mindes you talke of .

And if you woulde tell vs plainelie , what you meane by humility of spirit ( which in this case you speake of ) wee should soone perceiue , that thereby you vnderstand not true Christian humilitie , which through a base conceite that it breedeth in the owner , stirreth him vp the more earnestlie to craue assistance of Gods spirit , and by diligent search of the Scriptures , and more carefull vse of all good meanes , to compasse the right vnderstanding of them : but a popish and slauish kinde of humilitie , which must breede in the owner such a seruile depending vpon your Popes will , and Churches tradition for the sence thereof , as that he admit no sence at al of them ( though thrust vpon him neuer so plainelie by the euidence of the place ) that will not fullie agree therewith . Which breedeth in all of your side , either a flat giuing ouer all reading of them , or els such a reading of them , as that they must bring a sence vnto them from the tradition of your Church , and so enforce that vpon them , whither they will or no , for howsoeuer the scripture speake , the Churches tradition maie not be contraried . This is your humblenes of spirit , when you haue brought Gods spirit speaking in the Scriptures in subiection vnto your popish spirit : but this is a proud humilitie , and a cursed meekenes . You doe but malitiouslie slander vs , in that you would perswade your reader , that how bad and simple soeuer the man were before , assoone as a bishop hath made him minister , we say streight , hee hath the holy Ghost , and no Scripture is to harde for him , if hee can with all say the Lorde , and rayle vpon the Pope &c. And yet I must tell you , that wee thinke it not vnlawfull , but very necessarie to paint out your Pope with the colours , that are due vnto him , that men may the better beware of him : and yet wee count that no rayling ; but wee neither tie the holie Ghost to the imposition of the Bishops handes , nor place anie such matter in these things here mentioned by you , as you woulde leade your reader to imagine we doe . You know we might as easily ( and sute I am with far more trueth ) saie , that with you , how lewd & vnlearned soeuer the man bee , yet when one of your bishops hath priested him , then if he can cal the Pope most holie father , & speake reuerently of your Cardinals , bishops & other prelates , & saie , fi● on these heretiques , these Lutherans , and Zuinglians , he is straight a famous and worthie catholique Priest with you . But wheras amongst other things , you obiect that as a fault to their disgrace , that they say the ancient doctours were men , and that the generall Councels haue erred , it is but to discredit them with the simple . For you know , that the learned knowe , that both fathers and councels haue erred , & that you your owne selues , when they write or determine any thing which you like not , wil and doe as plainelie as we acknowledge the same . For which point let a man read Andrad . first booke writen in defence of the Tridentine faith , and but what Pighius hath writen of purpose for such cause , to discredit the sixt and seuenth Sinods , and hee shall most plainelie perceiue , that councels are of no further credit with you , then they shall be found to say nothing to your mislike . But to make it cleare , that it is no absurditie to say or hold , that councels and fathers may erre , and haue erred : it is wel knowen , that as the first Nicean councell and sundry after , accordingly decreed a right , against the Arrians for the trueth of Christs manhood , so the Tyrian , the Sirmiense , the Ariminense , the Sebucian and the Antiochen councels determined with the Arrians against the Nicean and the trueth . The second councel of Nice Act. 5. agreed that Angels and mens soules are bodily and circumscriptible , and yet this councel , notwithstanding this grosse errour , was confirmed by the 6 councel held at Constantinople , which Pope Agatho hath allowed for a general councell . The 3. councell of Carthage cap. 23. determined that all praiers at the altar should onelie be made to the father . The 2 councell of Ephesus was on Eutyches the heretiques side , and decreed for him . Your late councels of Constance and Basil decreed a dangerous errour ( in your conceit I am sure ) when they decreed the authoritie of the general councell to be aboue the Popes . For your holy father could not be quiet , vntill he got the contrary decreed in other two Synods at Ferraria , and Florence . And in the 6 of Constantinople ( mentioned before ) there was a perilous heresie agreed on ( I am sure in your iudgement ) Canonthirty six , against your Popes title , namelie that the Bishops of Constantinople shoulde enioy and haue equall priuiledges with them of Rome . See also the twenty two Chapter of the Mileuitan councell Ca. the 26. of the 3 councell at Carthage and the 92 Chapter of the African , & the Epistles of the same , to Boniface & Caelestine , and you shal finde plaine & direct Canons against the Supremacy , that now your Popes callenge . You were best therfore not onely to be content , that we say , general councels may er , but to learne to say so , aswel as we , your selues al the sort of you or els you see , you are not frends to your holy father . You may doe it , I warrant you , without any discredit . For August . a great doctor in his 2. booke , & 3. Chap against the Donatists saieth , that the very general councels are often corrected , the former by the later , as often as by triall & experience the thing is opened , that before was shut . And therfore disputing against Maximinus li. 3. ca. 14. he calleth him from the councels to the touchstone of the scriptures . And as for the doctors , the same Aug. being one of the chiefe of them , in his 2. booke . & 2. Chap. against Cresconius , plainly confesseth , that the iudges , or doctors of the Church , as being men , are often deceiued : & therfore in his 2 booke of one baptisme , he writeth , that we may argue & doubt of the writings of any bishop , whosoeuer he be , but we may not so doe of the holy scriptures . If he had not thought , that he himselfe not onely might , but had erred , would he euer haue writen as he did , a booke of Retractions or Recantations ? And indeed in his 2 book , & 4. Chap. ad Bonifacium , & against that 2. Epist. of the Pelagians , it appeareth , that he was of opinion , that of necessity children were to receiue the Communion , or els they could not be saued : because it is writen Ioh. 6. Except yee eat the flesh of the sonne of man , & drinke his bloud , yee haue no life in you : and Pope Innocent , and many of the fathers were of the same opinion then . And yet I thinke now your selues holde this to bee an errour , aswell as wee . And who will read his fourth booke de animâ & eius origine ad Vincentium , and his prologue to his retractions , he should there plainlie finde him confesse , that there are manie things in his wordes worthilie to bee founde fault withall , which he craueth that his reader would not cleaue vnto in any case , but rather pardon and follow him non errātem , sed in melius proficientem : not erring , but better profiting : Yea in the later place he saieth , that he would not arrogate that perfection to himselfe then being old , much lesse when hee was young , not to erre . And I thinke that you are not ignorant , that Irenaeus and Papias , were plaine Millenaries : and that Cyprian & a number of bishops in his time in Affricke , held in councel decreed , that rebaptization of those that had bene baptized by hereticks , which both you and we count errors notwithstanding now . Why therefore , especially when the names and titles of councels or men are vrged , to the preiudice of the trueth taught in the scriptures , may we not say , that which is true , that they both might & haue erred ? And thus you haue your answere , first generally to your principall scope in these 4. or 5. last Chapters , set downe togither , because the drift of them was but al one : and now also a further answere to the rest of the matters and words therein here and there scattered . But yet you haue not quite done with this matter , let vs therefore further follow you , to see if you haue said any more to the purpose in that which is behinde , then in that which we haue heard already .

The XXVII . Chapter .

I Pray Syrs , since you are so absolute , answere me to this obiection : a a A vaine question , for whoeuer of vs either saied or wrote so ? is it good to beleeue almaner of people , that doe alleage the Scriptures , or not If ye say , yea , why doe not you beleeue the aboue named Valentinus , Apollinaris , Hebion , Cherintus and Nestorius , with diuers others , that haue sought to maintaine their errours with the new & olde Testament . If you saie no , but that we ought rather to follow the counsell of S. Iohn in his first Epistle , cap. 4. The which is , not to beleeue euery spirit , but that we ought to proue , whether it be of God or no : b b Our proofe is , that our sen●e wherein we alleage them , stands with the rest of the scriptures , is according to the analogy of faith and good maners , & receiued to be the sence of ancient time and from time to time amongst the sound teachers in the Church . What proofe wil you shew vs of yours ? Shewe the priuiledge that you haue , by the which God dieth enioine vs to beleeue your Gospel , rather the the Gospell of the Pelagians , Nouatians , Nestorians , and other such false Apostles , considering that they haue alleaged the Scriptures aswel as you . If you saie , that they were heretickes , abusers of the people , and rauishing wolues cloathed in lambes skins , and false interpreters of the Scriptures , all this is certaine : a a The more haue they to answere for , that report so , for they can neuer proue it to be so . But what though the like report goeth of you ? Ye say , that ye are sent from Cod , to reforme the Church , They saie as much . b b Which of hem I pray you seeing they liued before the B. of Rome be●ame Antichrist . They preached , that the Pope was Antichrist , c c Yea but the Church of Rome then and now are not al one . shewing themselues verie eloquent in detracting and rayling against the Catholicke Roman Church , you doe the like . d d You say so : but you ●ay more then you can proue . At euerie word they did alleage the Scriptures in their Sermons , to confirme their doctrine , as you doe for yours . That that they preached , was called by them the Gospel , & the pure worde of the Lord : these are the verie tearmes that you vse among your holie prophetes : they haue beene condemned as heretiques by the generall Councels , e e Not yet by any lawful and f ee gene●al councel , was euer our religion , or any point of it condemned . you are so likewise . They did appeale vnto the pure word of God you doe the like : Yet are they proued to be false f f This i● flat dogs eloquence . cogging knaues , and so shal you . Then seeing there is so great an vniformitie betweene you , vpon what grounde g g Vpon this , that we are able to iustifie our alleaging of them to to be sound and catholicke , which they are not . shall wee confirme that reason that shoulde condemne them as heretiques , & allow you for Catholicks . h h This question is rather meete to be proposed to you , who haue learned of the Donatists to tye the Church to your popes sleue and to shut it vp within the narrow limits of his dominion S. Augustine in his Epistle . 161. did put vnto a Donatist called Honoratus this probleme : We desire thee , not to thinke it much to answere vs to this : what cause doest thou know , or what thing hath there beene done , that hath made Chirst loose his inheritance , spred ouer all the world , to come to be contained onely in Affricke , & there onelie to remaine ? We put the like question to i i Though your popish Church hath bene none of his ●nheritance a good while , yet he hath had his inheritance alwaies and euer will haue , and this we hold and teach and therefore your question , is v●i●e , friuolous and fla●●e●ous Caluin , Beza , Viret , & the rest , that it may please them to tel vs , if that by chaunce they haue bene aduertised , through what occasion our Sauiour Christ hath lost his inheritaunce , that is to say , the Church spread ouer all the world , to remaine now in the later daies , with a companie of rude Swizers , or in two or three corners besides , & not among the rest ( for there is a great number of good Catholickes ) what badge can you shew , or what signe to make vs know , that you are the successours of the Apostles of Christ ? If that the Scriptures that you alleage , ought to be a sufficient proofe , we are content to accept it , k k There as no need that we should doe so , because we can proue , that we alleadge them soundly & they falsely & corruptly . if you will be content to grant the like vnto the aboue named heretickes , which haue fortified their campe with as manie places more , then you doe alleage . Now if that ( notwithstanding the scriptures by them alleaged ) you doe condemne them as hereticks , because that they did interpret them contrary to that that the l l Vnderstanding by the Church the true Church , that is one of our reasons , but that is not al , why we reiect them and their maner of alleaging them , principally we reiect them , because by the plaine euidence of the scriptures we can confute ●hem . And to despise the iudgement of the popish Church , is not to despise the iudgement of the true Church of Christ . church doeth teach ( & to saie trueth , you can imagin no other excuse ) to what purpose doe you take vpon you the names of Catholickes , seeing that you commit the like offence ? The diuersities of those olde heresies grounded vpon the Scriptures ill interpreted , doe teach vs , that wee shoulde not permit the noise of your reformed Gospell that soundeth so shrill , to make vs reele from a a Yours is but ancient , as Ieroboams religion was , when the 10 tribes were brought into captiuity . our ancient faith , & without going so farre to seeke that , that we haue so neere at hand . Let vs talke of the present time , how manie contrarie sects doth there raigne ? How manie heads of heresies ? b b With variety of names , you need lesly increase the number , as your forfathers were woont to doe , with those whom they first called Waldenses . Some are Lutherans , some Anabaptists , some Puritans , some Protestants , some Precisians , & all these doe fortifie their campes with Scriptures , to fight one against another . The Zuinglians & the Caluinists on the other side doe write , that al these doe erre , and they proue it by Scripture . The Anabaptists laugh at al the rest . The Prophets Celestes , which is another sect , doe no lesse , grounding themselues vpon their reuelations , because that Dauid saieth : * * Psalm . 84. Heare what the Lorde doeth speake in me . The Deists or Trinitaries , which are come last of al , crie out and saie , that all they are heretickes , and they proue it by the olde and new Testament . I praie now tell me , which of al these shall I receiue , seeing that they doe all alleage the holie Scriptures ? If we receiue some and not all , those that are refused will saie , that wee offer them wrong : for they haue c c This is but your saying still , for you shall neuer be able to proue this . their shoppes stored with as good stuffe of the scriptures , and aswell alleadged as all the rest . If we receiue them all , it will be a renewing of the olde confusion of Babylon , through the neglecting of so manie Gospels . If you saie , that we ought to follow those that conforme themselues most vnto the pure word of God , that will come to one ende : for if I doe demaunde of you , how we shall know which doe conforme themselues most vnto the trueth , d d Indeade we say and we are not ashamed of it , that onely by the assistance & direction of the holy Ghost , in trying their interpretations by the scriptures , it must be discerned who alle●geth them best . you answere me , that it must be done by the grace of the holie Ghost , sent by the Lord , if with a true heart he is inuocated of the faithful . Seeing you know so wel the way how to agree togither , how commeth it to passe , that you haue not vsed it this fortie or fiftie yeares , which are the precincts of the time , since your ancient Church began : seeing that you haue assembled so manie times togither , e e We haue done so , and Gods name be praised for it , so far we haue obtained our praier , that we are able by the light of Gods spirit to discerne , who amongst all these and all others ( amongst whom you papistes are the principall ) alleages them best , & with those we holde peace , for the rest we morne , yet comforting of our selues with this , that necessary it is for the trial of the Lords , that there be such sects . why haue yee not praied vnto the Lorde , to sende the spirit of trueth to make peace amongst his Apostles ? I thinke that you are not so vnshamefast , that you will denie the quarels and debates , that haue risen among you : f f The stirre betwixt these two , though it hath bene more then should bee , yet neither so much hath it bene , at least for the followers of Caluin , as you woulde seeme , nor nothing comparable to the brawlings and furious contentions amongst your selues often . I doe not say , in light words , but in great battailes , in railing processes , in horrible excommunications , sent from the Churches of the Lutherans vnto the Caluinists , & from the Caluinists vnto the Lutherans , as I haue set forth at large in the booke that I made of the Sacrament : & therefore yee are greatly ouerseene , that ye haue not inuocated the spirit of the Lorde , as Caluin hath taught you in his Catechisme , to the end that you may come to some accorde .

The XXVII . Chapter .

FIrst here you aske vs , whither it be good to beleeue al maner of people that alleage scripture ? We answere you , no : but with S. Ioh. 1. Epist. 4. We wish all men to trie the spirits whither they be of God , or no , before they beleeue them . And we adde further with Iohn in the same place , Hereby shall yee knowe the spirit of God . Euery spirit that confesseth , that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh , is of God : and that spirit , which confesseth not that , is not of God , but is the spirit of Antichrist . By which wordes wee answere fullie your second demaunde also , and giue you a proofe , that our spirit is of God : and yet neither these heretiques , which you name , nor yours any better , then that spirit of Antichrist , which Iohn speaketh of . For I am sure , you must needs graunt mee ( if you consider these wordes of Saint Iohn well ) that hee speaketh here onelie of confessing soundlie , and rightly , that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh : which wee doe ( as wee are able to proue ) by the Scriptures truelie alleadged , and neither they nor you are able to proue that , and therefore this is a plaine proofe , that ours is of God , and neither yours nor theirs can be . They confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh , in that one way or other , they erred not onelie in the doctrine of his office , but also held some heresie or other against the trueth of his person . And you confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh , because not onely with some of the ancient heretiques ( as namelie the Marcionites ) for the loue you haue to your fiction of Transubstantiation , you hold him to haue such flesh , as shall for your peeuish pleasures be without all the naturall properties of humane flesh , and so a very phantasme and not flesh indeed , but also most craftily you take from him that glorious office , that the Scripture giueth him , and translate it to what you list , and so in effecte you denie the cause of his comming . For to what ende came he , but to execute that office , that wee are taught in the Scripture , his heauenly father appointed him ? Deny therefore that he hath executed that office , and you deny the cause of his comming . And you know , sublatâ causâ tollitur effectus : deny the cause and the effect is denied . I knowe you will thinke , that I offer you great wrong , in charging you thus directly with denying Christ of his office : but if you will haue patience a little , if I proue it not , let me haue the shame thereof . You will say for your defence , that you confesse and acknowledge him to be the Sauiour and redeemer of the world : and you will say , you beleeue by him to be saued : I doe not deny , but you will and doe say all this , and more also ; but what is that to the purpose , as long as in your deedes and practise you go from it againe , and robbe him of that honour , that is due vnto him ? Iudas saied vnto him , Haile master , and kissed him , when indeede he betraied him : and Pilat wrote him , Iesus of Nazareth king of the Iewes , and yet crucified him . But to come nearer vnto you , it cannot be denied , but that the false Apostles , that gaue Paul occasion to write to the Galathians , did not deny these things , which you giue out in wordes of Christ , this onely was their fault , that they taught men to ioyne their owne merits , atteined vnto by the obseruing of Moses lawe , togither with Christ in the office of iustifying them , as it most clearely appeareth , throughout that Epistle . For hauing of which conceite in their obseruations of Moses lawe , and namely in being circumcised ( for otherwise in the same place he saieth , neither circumcision , nor vncircumcision auaileth any thing ) hee telleth them most confidently chap. 5. that Christ should profitte them nothing : yea , that they were abolished from Christ and fallen from grace . Whereupon most euidently it followeth , that Paul was of this minde , that howsoeuer the lawe was obserued of them that beleeued in Christ , it might not be obserued with this minde and to this ende , thereby together with Christ to iustifie the obseruer . You cannot say , that heere Paul speaketh of obseruing the lawe , to this ende before they had faith . For he speaketh to such , as after they had by his ministry attained vnto faith in Christ , were now taught by false teachers , to ioyne their owne merits in obseruing Moses lawe , with Christ in iustifying . But yet you say , he speaketh in this , and in such places onely of the workes of the ceremoniall law , which was then abolished : wherein you say more , then you can proue . For he so excludeth workes from this office of iustifying , that he oft aduoutcheth , that iustification commeth freely , as Rom. 3. Ephes. 2. and he calleth saluation the free gift of God , Rom. 6. and therefore as little commeth it for morall workes sake , as for Ceremoniall . But though you could proue , that he disableth onely Ceremoniall workes , yet you could not escape the sentence set downe by the Apostle against such , as doe them to the end aforesaied . Yes , say you , for we doe not teach men to obserue them at all , much lesse to any such ende . What then ? you haue deuiled a number of Ceremoniall workes of your owne , as the obseruing of holy daies , and fasting daies , going on pilgrimage , offring to this shrine , & that , taking of holy water , creeping to the Crosse , wearing of this thing and that , and a thousand such other , which you perswade men and women to obserue , with as great an opinion to merit therby , as euer the false Apostles taught either Galathians , Colossians , or any other to obserue Moses Ceremonies . And you must remember , that Paul reasoneth to the Col. cap. 2. that seeing they were in Christ freed from the ceremonies of Moses law , which he calleth ther , the ordinances of the world , much more they ought to take themselues freed from traditions , touch not , tast not , handle not , and very reason will tell you , that if in Pauls time it were a denying and renouncing of Christ , to obserue the Ceremonies , that God himselfe had appointed once , and which so long by his owne ordinance had beene kept in the Church , with that opinion thereby togither with Christ to be iustified : much more is it so , to obserue these beggerly Ceremoniall ordinances of yours , which yet neuer had any allowance from God , but doe flatly contrarie his will in his word . I knowe you Iesuites haue taught you yet one shift more , and that is this ; that you haue not any such opinion in your works morall or Ceremoniall , nor in any thing els , that you doe , or vse , wherein you haue opinion of merit , for their owne dignity , or worthines considered in themselues , but for that they are tincta sanguine Christi , that is , aduanced to that force and dignity thorowe the force of the death and passion of Christ . Wherein sathan ( as it seemeth ) hath beene put to trie the vttermost of his cunning . For therein ( doubtles ) is conteined ( though colourably ) a deepe mistery of iniquity : and yet vnder new colours , the very same Antichristianitie in robbing Christ of his office , that was before . For the reason , why we charge you with denying Christes office , is , that wee take it taught in the worde , that he is a sole , and whole , a full and perfect Sauiour in himselfe , and by himselfe , because it is write●● Math. 22. that in the mariage of the kinges sonne , all thinges are prepared alreadie : and Act. 4. that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation . And we finde , that you communicate ( at least ) some part of this office to mens owne workes and satisfactions , and that ( which is more monstrous ) to the workes and satisfactions of others , and to a number not onely of vaine and friuolous things , as to holy water , hallowed graines , Agnus Dei and such like , but also to the doing of some thinges , which we know and are most sure of , are horrible sinnes before God , as to your blasphemous Masse-saying , and to the vnnaturall murdering or deposing of lawfull Princes by their owne subiects , at your Popes pleasure and commandement . And by this newe shift , none of this former dealing is recanted , or reuoked : but onely this is added , that these thinges thus communicate with Christ in iustifying and sauing , not simplie by their owne vertue , force , and dignity ; but by an efficacie , that they haue got thorowe Christ . Whereupon it must needes follow , doth before God and true Christians , that you are growen more iniurious to Christ , then euer any of your forefathers were . For whereas before , you your selues alone robbed Christ of his office ; whiles you taught plainely , that these thinges ex condigno , & ex opere operato , that is , euen in respect of their owne dignity , and by the worke wrought , were meritorious to euerlasting life : now you continue not onely your former robbing of him your selues , but you will make him the principall , or ( at least ) accessarie to this robbing of himselfe . For now in effect you tell vs , that he came , and did those thinges , which hee did in his owne person , not thereby in and by himselfe to beginne and finish our saluation , but to merit by his doings and sufferings , that these thinges done by vs and others for vs , should bee the formall cause of our righteousnesse , and so of our iustification and saluation . So that now Christ is onely a Sauiour in meriting , that these thinges ( which otherwise should neuer haue had that force and efficacy ) should haue a power to deserue and procure our saluation . Is not this now a trimme office , that you haue deuised for Christ , that hee should bee a Sauiour onely in procuring habilitie to these thinges to saue ? What one iote of Scripture haue you for this ? Nay , as the Scripture doeth manifestly take from workes , yea euen from the morall and most righteous workes done by the faithfull after regeneration , the office of iustifying ( as it may appeare , in that Abrahams workes and Pauls , when they were in that state , though they were neuer so full of them , are disallowed to haue any such effect . Rom. 4.2 . Phil. 3.8.9 . ) so doeth it teach vs , that Christ came not , to make other persons or things to haue the office of sauing mens soules , but to beginne and go thorowe that worke so himselfe , as that no part of that glory shal be communicated to any other person , or thing . For therein we reade , that his owne selfe bare our sinnes in his owne body on the tree : & that by his stripes wee are healed . 1. Pet. 2.24 . & so perfectly , that it is writen Heb. 10.14 . we are sanctified by the offring of the body of Iesus Christ once made , & with one offering hath he consecrated for euer , them that are sanctified . Whereupon he calleth himselfe Alpha & Omega , Reuel : 1.11 . that is , the first beginner , and last accomplisher of our saluation , or as it is saied Hebr. 12. the authour and finisher of our faith . Whereas by this newe Iesuiticall diuinity , in the matter of iustification , and saluation , Christ hath but so borne our sinnes in his owne bodie and offered himselfe to death for vs , that howsoeuer thereby hee hath begunne to heale and cure vs , the ending and finishing it , must be by those other thinges , and he hath done all this to no purpose , vnles his worke begunne be ended by these things following , in our selues and others .

O what intollerable blasphemie is this ! and into what a bottomles pitte of desperation doe these men , the authours of this doctrine , wilfully cast themselues ! For if the case stand so , as they say , how is it possible for any man at any time euer to haue a faith without wauering ? which kinde of faith S. Iames determineth to be fruitles . Iam. 1. For when can any man tell , that he hath hit of all those things , that are left besides Christs merits , to accomplish the full merit for his saluation ? Or how can the soule of man standing before the iudgement of God , without any warrant from God , and contrary to all reason , perswade it selfe , that it shall haue heauen for these things , so full of imperfection and vanity , if not impiety ? Further , to proue that you deny Christ his owne office , and pinne vpon him an office of your owne deuising , it appeareth also in this , that you will not let him be King , Prophet , & Priest to his Church , as the scriptures teach him to bee . For neither will you suffer him to gouerne his kingdome , according to his owne orders , neither to teach his people onely with his own word , nor to saue them onely by his own obedience and merits . But in all these you crosse him , in bringing in a number of fashions , lawes , and ordinances , yea officers , and offices into his house , that he neuer saied Amen vnto , in teaching men rather the traditions and inuentions of men , then doctrine onely , that hath warrant from his mouth , and in setting vp a number of meanes to saluation besides him .

Now as for vs , wee neither with the ancient heretiques , nor yet with you hold any heresie concerning either his person , or office . For concerning the one , we holde and beleeue , that he is perfect God , and perfect man , and yet but one person consisting of those two natures : and concerning the other , that he is such a Sauiour , as that he hath begun and finished whatsoeuer was necessary to merite or deserue our full saluation by . And therefore when we haue done al the good workes , that possibly by his grace we can , yet , though we know and beleeue that God will both accept of vs , & of those our good workes for his Christes sake , for feare of robbing him of any part of that office that he tooke vpon him , we dare not thinke , that therby we haue any maner of way merited any part of our saluation . That onely we seeke at his hands , and through him and his merits alone we looke for it . This doctrine in euery point hath warrant from the Scriptures , and from all sound antiquity . And this and the rest of our whole doctrine tendeth greatly to aduaunce the glory of God , both in setting forth the seuerity of his iustice against sin , euen to the least sin , and the infinitenes of his free mercy in Christ : and altogither to throw downe man vnder the burden of his sinnes , both original and actual , that he may seeke to rise againe not at all by any strength of his owne , but onely by the grace of God in Christ Iesus . Whereas yours contrarily tendeth to this end , to lift vp man in a conceit of himselfe , and to abscure both the iustice , and the mercy of God : As your doctrines of free will , mans ability to keepe and ouerkeepe the law : of veniall sinnes , euen for the littlenes of them , and of mans owne iustifying of himselfe , may make most euident to them , that consider of them . And therfore seeing it is writen , that God resisteth the proude , & giueth grace to the humble : Iames . 4.6 . and that it is his property , to send away the rich empty , and to fill the hungry with good thinges , Luk. 1.53 , & to iustifie the publican , & to sende the pharisie home without : Luk. 15. a great signe this is , yea a good proofe , that we , rather then you , are led by the spirit of God . And as for these olde heretiques , you are bound to beleeue vs , rather then them , because our doctrine not onely by the testimony of the Scriptures , but also ( I dare say ) euen in your owne consciences , is sounder both concerning the person and office of the Messias , then theirs : and thus you are answered both to your first , and second question , which you put vnto vs in this Chapter .

But yet you go on , and say , they alleadged Scriptures as well as we : that we denie , for they alleadged them corruptly , to proue their heresies , and would not be drawen to expound one Scripture by another , but peeuishly vrged the literall or wrong sence of some hard places , against the circumstances both of the same places , and that which is manifestly taught in others : which is your fashion altogether : and we alleadge them truely to confirme onely the trueth , and therefore are very well contented , that our interpretations should be tried by all sound and good rules of interpreting . Whereas you adde , If we say , they were heretiques , and abused the scriptures , &c. the like report you say is of vs : I say , the more is their fault that so report of vs , for they can neuer proue it . Howbeit to make your report seeme the more probable , you compare our dealings with theirs , which ( by your saying ) are very like . But the reader must be aduertised , that you frame their speeches & doings here without booke : I meane , without warrant of any good authour that reporteth these things of them , euen of your owne head , that so you may the better make their speeches and ours alike . I praie you , in what good authour did you euer reade ( and yet here you confidently aduoutch it ) that the Palagians , Nouatians , Nestorians &c. ( who were long dead , and buried before your Pope was hatched ) preached , that the Pope was Antichrist ? It may be true that you write , that some of them railed against the Roman Church , that then was . But , alas , what is this for your Romish Church now , which is no more like that then , then an apple is like an oister ? Indeede this is one of your trickes , wherewith you coosen the poore simple people . For it is the fashion of you all , when you finde in any ancient father , anie thing that soundeth to the credit of the Catholique church , or to the commendation of the Roman Church in their daies , to alleadge it as spoken in the commendation of your Romish church now a 1000. yeares after their death , whereas there is more difference betwixt yours and that , which they speake of , in weighty & materiall points of doctrine , and discipline , then in yeares . If your Romish Church now would returne to the state of the ancient church of Rome , and grow once like that , you and we should soone agree . For that is the thing , that we will stand vpon with you , that it is you in your railing vpon our churches , that according to the fashion of these ancient heretiques raile vpon the church of Rome that then was , rather , then we . For our churches are 1000. times more like it indeed , than yours as it is now . Nether are you able to produce your authours , to proue that these heretiques did at euery word alleadge scripture , or appeal onely thereunto . For the contrary is euident both in Epiphanius , Tertullian , Irenaeus , August : and others that wrote against them . For they testifie , that many of them shunned the triall of the Scriptures onely , and fled , euen as you doe , to traditions , succession of fathers , visions , & other such like motiues , as councels , fathers , antiquity , consent &c. as I haue shewed cap. 3. & as appeareth euidently in diuers of these fathers writings , as in Tertul : in praescrip: contra haeret : Epiphanius in many places de haeresibus : Chrysost: in Math: 4. Irenaeus libro : 3. cap. 2. August : Contra Maxim : lib. 1. de Baptismo contra Donatist : lib. 3. cap. 2. in Ioan : Tract. 13. de vnitate Ecclesiae : cap. 15. Epist. 165. ad Generosum . Who but one of your Religion would euer thus grossely abuse his simple poore Reader ? You yet , as a man that had saied all this while nothing , but that you might truely say , proceede on with your comparison , & tell vs , that they were condemned by generall Councels , & so are we : they were found cogging knaues , and so shall we . Whereunto I answere , that those which you call generall Councels , were but late Conuenticles of your owne , since the apostasie of your Church from the ancient Roman Church , wherein there was indeede no freedome of a lawfull Councell enioyed , and therefore whose condemnation we neede care no more for , then Christ and his Apostles needed to care for the sentence of condemnation , that in their times the high Priestes , Scribes , and Pharisees gaue of them and their doings in their councels . And as for your vnmanerly prophecie , we neede not esteeme it . For neither is your mouth any slander , nor yet doe we take you to be a true Prophet . But seeing ( say you ) they and you be thus like , why should they be condemned for heretiques , & you absolued , & receiued ? I answere , the likelihood is denied , and the reason I haue giuen you alreadie . As for Augustines probleme you talke of , it is impertinent , and toucheth vs not . For we doe not with the Donatists shut vp Christs inheritance within the compasse of any place , as they did in Africke , neither say we that Christ at any time hath lost his in heritance , but we say , that Christ hath had alwaies , and hath still his Church without restraint of place , wheresoeuer it pleaseth him : neither doeth it remaine now onely with a fewe rude Switzers , and in two or three corners besides , as it pleaseth you to speake . For it is well seene , that diuerse whole kingdomes , as England , Scotland , and Denmarke haue receiued our Religion , and that indeede it groweth so mightily in most places , that it maketh the stoutest of you greatly feare , that ere it be long , your kingdome of the Pope will be greater in the west Indies , then in these parts .

Hauing done with vrging this probleme ( which indeede fitteth you Papists better , then vs , in that you tie Christes inheritance to your Popes girdle ) you tell your Reader ( but you meane to proue it at leasure ) that these heretiques , that you haue talked on all this while , haue fortified their campe with as manie moe places , as wee alleadge : and therefore once againe you would haue a reason , why that notwithstanding they should bee counted heretiques , and not we ? You make vs answere , because they did interpret them contrarie to the Churches doctrine : which you suppose , is the onely answere we can giue . But I haue tolde you , that because when there is question of truth , there is commonly also question of the church , our answere is , that their alleadging of them was hereticall , & ours true and right , as may be proued by the scriptures themselues , and by the right rules of interpreting of them . But be it , that we answere as you imagine , what haue we lost , or you gained thereby ? This say you , that you haue no more right , then they , to be counted Catholiques , because you alleadge them also contrarie to the Churches doctrine . Here againe you deceiue both your selfe and your Reader , with the ambiguity of the word Church . For if wee answere , that we reiect their allegations , for that they alleadged them contrarie to the Churches doctrine that then was : we by the Church , vnderstand a sound and sincere church of Christ in possession of sound Religion , and not whatsoeuer Synagogue will entitle it selfe with the name of the Church , and so vnder the name of the Church warre against the true church . In which sence onely your Church ( against whose doctrine wee alleadge them ) hath the name of a church . And yet you , as though it must needes be graunted you , that your church is aswell the church of Christ , as that that was in their times , you make our fault and theirs one , because we contrary yours , which is the church falsely so named : whereas they in theirs contraried the churches doctrine truely so tearmed . You must proue therefore your Church now , and that which was 1000. yeares ago , at least , to be al one in doctrine ( which you can neuer doe ) before you can proue their fault and ours to be all one . Howsoeuer this vse yet , you will make of the variety of opinions , and the alleadging of the Scriptures by these heretiques , that you wil not remooue from your Religion , or faith ( which falsely you call ancient ) for all the shrill noise of our Gospell . Whereunto this onely I reply , that if now ( the diuersity betwixt their dealing and ours herein shewed you , as it is ) you that notwithstanding persist in this minde vpon this ground , you therein shall shew your selues to bee ledde rather by will , then witte , or any sound wisedome .

But at last you giue ouer wandring any longer so farre abroad , for examples to this purpose , and you will talke ( you say ) but of the sectes and heads of heresies of this present time : who all likewise alleadge scripture , and condemne one another . And therefore , hauing reckoned vp Lutherans , Anabaptistes , Puritanes , Protestantes , Precisians , Zwinglians , Caluinistes , Caelestes , Deistes , & Trini●●ries , you would knowe of vs , which of these you should receiue . And to make your question the harder to answere , you adde ( saying ) If we receiue some , and not all , they that are refused will thinke they haue wrong offered them . For they haue as good store of scripture well alleadged , as the rest : and if all should for this cause be receiued , then thereupon would followe a Babylonicall confusion . This obiection , taken from the variety of sects and opinions in these daies , I haue so answered in answering to your fourth chapter , that thereby I haue made it most cleare , that ( though you had as great ground for it as you pretend ) yet all that variety neither can nor ought to preiudice any thing our Religion . And therefore vnto that answere of mine hereunto , I must referre the reader both now and hereafter , whensoeuer it commeth , for his satisfaction : yet this here I would haue him further to note , that to make the number seeme the greater , you haue here reckoned vp them as different Sectes , & heades of heresies , amongst whom either there is full agreement , as betwixt them , whom you call Caluinists and Zwinglians , or but such difference , as notwithstanding they agree in the substantiallest , and fundamentall points of Religion , as the Lutherans & Caluinists , the Protestants , & they whom you tearme Puritanes . Which differences if they be sufficient with you to make different Sects , & seuerall heades of heresies , then as many seuerall orders as there be amongst you of your religious men , and women , and as many seuerall sortes of schoolemen as you haue , differing amongst themselues , in questions of diuinitie , so manie seuerall Sectes there are amongst you : all which would rise to a marueilous long beadrole . And indeede he that considereth well these thinges , though hee shall finde you like Sampsons foxes tied togither by the tailes , with the thong of the Popes supremacie , yet otherwise hee shall and may most easily finde , that you are farre more iustly to bee charged , to nourish within your Synagogue of Rome , multitudes of sects , and heades of heresies then we , both for that you exceede infinitly in number and matters , and for that whereas some of ours , to our griefe , vnwillingly are tearmed by our enimies Lutherans , Caluinists , Zwinglians , &c. you delight and take pleasure in your distinct titles of diuision , as to bee called Dominicans , Franciscans , Iesuites &c. Secondly , there are some of these , which you here name as Caelestes , Deistes , & Trinitaries , and the Sect of the family of loue ( wherewith elswhere some of you charge vs ) who are far liker you then vs , and haue rather sprung vp amongst you , and of you , them of vs . And this is certaine , that all these , our men haue beene more painefull to detect , and confute them , then euer were yours . Our answere therefore to your demande hereupon builded , is this , though all these alleadge scripture , yet neither alleadge they it aswell as we , neither is there any remedy , but that you must and ought to receaue them , for the true members of the Catholique church ( howsoeuer others alleadge them ) that alleadge them best & soundliest . But then , you will say , you are as farre of , as you were in the beginning , seeing euery one will stand vpon this , that he and his side alleadge them best , and therefore once againe you will reply & say , that to determine who doeth best alleadge them , is a thing so harde , that fewe shall be able to finde it out : and therefore in the ende you shall be driuen to thinke it necessary , that the Pope should be iudge in this case , otherwise men shall neuer be at a certainty whom to follow . Hereunto I answere that the harder the matter is , the more paines men ought to take thereabout , seeing to know and finde the trueth , standeth them so much vpon : secondly , I say with S. Paul , that when you and all the world haue done what you can , there must be heresies amongst men , that they which are approued amongst them may be knowen . 1. Cor. 11. Thirdly , how hard soeuer it seeme , yet by searching of the scriptures , & examining the allegations & interpretations of them , by the rules of right interpreting ( which I before set downe ) in humility of spirit , God will leade them that be his ( how simple soeuer ) at one time or other by the direction of his spirit , to finde out who they be , that soundliest handle them . For he hath promised , If we seeke , we shall finde , and if we knocke it shal be opened vnto vs . Mat. 7.7 . And as for the iudgement of the Pope , or any one certaine man , or company of men , because the Lord in his wisedome foresawe what was in man , & so how prone to erre : in this case he hath not appointed vs any such to run vnto for the determining of this matter . And therfore it is intollerable presumption for any such to take vpon them , that the Lord hath made them such iudges in this case , that they cannot erre . The ministry of men , conference with men , reading of mens labours vpon matters of Religion , & such other good helps , with an earnest and humble inuocation of the name of God , for the direction of his spirit , are to be vsed carefully of euery man , as he may , in this case But when all commeth to all , we see no other , but that it is the will & pleasure of our God , rather to leaue vs thus to be exercised in scearching the scriptures , & in trauelling by these meanes to finde out the truth , & to settle our selues therein , them to send vs for full resolution to any one man or men , least so we should after be deceiued through the errour of those men , then we shall be this other way . Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe , both with the deuil himselfe , & with his chaplaines , both to confute their errours & erroneous interpretations , & to confirme the trueth , by searching the scriptures : and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example , to the high Priests then , or vnto any other for resolution of the church or trueth , this way as the best & only way we thinke all Christians bound to take . And in so doing , let not any man despaire , but that through the goodnes of God , he shal be inabled to trie the spirits , & to discerne , who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest . For we see it is the fashion of our God , to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof , to those that be his ; how simple soeuer , when he doeth conceale & hide them from the great men of the world . Mat. 11.1 . Cor. 1.

But you say , If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost , obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocation of his name , how chanceth it , that since Luther ( for no ancienter you say , ( though it be neuer so false ) our Religion is ) you haue not obteined that holy ghost , to ende your hoat contentions and debates amongst your selues , that so you might be at vnity yet amongst your selues ? This is spoken , as though it must needes follow , that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit , or els , if we haue , that then of necessity there neither could be , nor would be , any difference of opinions , and contentions at all amongst vs . If you be of this mind , then the manifold differences , schismes , sects , & varieties of opinions , that haue beene , and yet are , in your church ( as I haue noted cap. 4. ) argueth in your Logicke , that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost . But indeede your argument is naught . For it appeareth ( Ioh. 17. ) that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles , and all that should beleeue their doctrine ; & no doubt of it , he was heard in that he praied for . Heb. 5.7 . and obteined , for his heauenvly father would deny him nothing : and yet you haue heard ( cap 4. ) after this there were varieties of opinions , and hoate contentions betwixt some of them , that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier . And therefore that praier of Christ , and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende , are to be vnderstoode to take place , and to be effectuall , in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby , as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints : which is , if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation , and fundamentall points of Religion , though otherwise there be differences and h●at contentions sometimes amongst them . And it may not be thought ( as you seeme to take it ) that such prayers either are not effectually made , or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things . For then Christes prayer was not effectuall , in that after , Paul and Barnabas were at a●arre Act. 15. &c. That vnity , that you speake of , the Church may striue for here , but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it , before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there . And so much vnity there is betwixt vs , and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs , as that , though there be some variety of opinions , and therefore also contention but too much , yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation , and other most principal points of our Religion , that we doubt not , but the Lord hath heard our praiers , and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth , as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity , notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time , to trie vs withall , be found amongst vs . You know we praie daily , that Gods will may be done in earth , as it is in heauen ( and so doe you , or you are to blame ) and herein we hope , we are heard : and yet simply we neuer found , nor shall , as long as the world standeth , the will of God so done here , as it is in heauen . For continually there is disobedience to his will here in one thing or other , one way or other , euen amongst the best , but in that , in such measure , as God seeth this fit to be obteined here , he granteth it , we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall . Christ himselfe praied ( Iohn . 17.15 ) to deliuer his church from euill , and yet though that prayer was heard , in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill ; as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here , we see daily that many are the troubles , and euils that the poore church is encombred withall . And therefore ( to conclude ) you must vnderstand , that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall , though the thing they pray for , be not obteined in full perfection here , as long as so much here is obteined , as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes . So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs , you might and would ( if you had the grace ) ioyne rather with vs in our Religion , then continue in that wherein you are ; the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences , then the churches that receaue ours are : howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity , in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth .

The XXVIII . Chapter .

NOw to turne againe to our former purpose , if it were so , that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion , a a If you should be of no Religion , whiles all of one , were full of one mind● , you must die a nullifidian I warrant you . the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues , were sufficient , to make vs to suspend our iudgement , without leauing to any of both parties , vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinions , being the bardest matter , the knowing in what cuntry the residence should be kept for that matter . b b Where & when ? nay our absolute sentence i● , as our bookes doe testifie , and we proue it out of the ancient fathers , that your doctrine in this point is but new , & a very young , ●●ng , in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme . You haue giuen absolute sentence , saying , that the Catholique church hath erred , euen from the Apostles time vnto this present , in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade , constituted in a third place called Purgatorie . You should , mee thinke , at the least allowe a third place , although it bee not that , to receaue the soules of those , whose consciences you haue so troubled , that they know now , neither what is their faith , nor of what Religion they should be : c c Such v●setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish gibing , you knowe wel enough who hath a right vnto and that ●heir place is knowen , though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of . for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans , when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists , & at the last they doe not know , which side indeede is the truest , being both false : & therefore I thinke it were good , that a sequestration were made , that neither God nor the Deuill might haue part of their soules , till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects , & that some good and honest arbitratour might giue iudgement , as concerning which party hath most right . And in the meane while I beseech god , to open so the eies of the people , that they may see both your errours and their owne , and that through the abundance of their sinnes , he permit them not to fall into an Heathenisme , vnto the which you doe seeke to drawe them with so many contrarie Gospels .

The XXVIII . Chapter .

ONce againe you obiect vnto vs , the contention betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists : which ( you say ) is cause sufficient , not onely to make you stay from yeelding your consent to either of vs , though otherwise you were willing to forsake your Religion , which wrongfully you call Catholique : but also so troubleth the consciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both sides , that they are led one while on the one side , anone againe on the other , & so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes , though otherwise ( as you say ) we giue absolute sentence , that the Catholique church hath erred , euen from the Apostles times to this present , in praying to God for the soules in purgatory , you thinke yet we should appoint some third place or other to receiue their soules , vntill it were determined , with of these belong to God , and which to the deuill . And then you conclude this Chapter , with a solemne praier to God , to open the peoples eies to see both our errours , & their own sinnes , least for them thorowe these varieties of opinions amongst vs , they bee drawen to heathenisme by Gods permission . This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie , telling vs of great battels , railing processes , and horrible excommunications , that haue passed about this matter of the sacrament , on both sides : and yet there , in another booke , which you haue made ( you say ) of the sacrament : you signifie vnto vs , that you haue bestowed more cost to amplify this matter . Against this & such like out-cries of these men about this matter ( gentle Reader ) thou art to arme and strengthen thy selfe , with that which I haue set downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter : whereby I haue made euident demonstration vnto thee , that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church , and true members thereof , to haue as great & hoat contentions , as euer there hath beene amongst vs in this . And if that which I haue saied there were not sufficient , I could now further shew you , that not only there is as great a controuersie now and hath beene a long time amongst themselues , the nature of their Religion considered , as any they can charge vs with : namely this , whither their Pope or generall Councels haue the greater and higher authority , but also I might easily againe say , and say truely ( as they themselues know well enough ) that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ , there were such lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus , Lucifer and Eusebius , the Meletians and Eustathians , all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest pointes of Religion sound Christians , as that with great trouble to the Church , they shunned one anothers communion , and that for verie many yeares togither , as you may reade in Epiphanius libro . 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. &c. in Socrates libro . 2. cap. 33. & 34. and in Zozomen libro . 2. cap. 17. & 18. And wee reade histor: tripart : libro . 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hoate contention and enmity ( and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both ) that departing one from the other , the one spitefully saied to the other , thou shalt neuer die Bishop , and the other saied to him as vncharitably , neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopricke aliue : both which their imprecations or predictions , as the storie shewes , came euen so to passe . For Chrysostome died banished , and the other before he got home to Cyprus . If you would see what controuersie there was betwixt Cyprian , Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome , reade Augustine contra Donatistas libro . 5. cap. 23. & 25. and Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 3. & 4. And who is so ignorant , that the Church stories and ancient writers , ministers vnto vs but too too great store , in all ages of controuersies , and those also too hoatly followed euen amongst Christians , of great name and fame in their times . And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you , or any of your fellowes in this sort still to amplifie this one controuersie about the Sacrament amongst vs , as though it were sufficient cause of all , or of any of these thinges , which you inferre thereupon against vs . Had there beene any wisedome in them that liued in these ancient times , when these contentions were that I haue spoken of here and elsewhere , thereupon to haue gathered either all , or any of these thinges ? Nay , it is euident , that if thereupon they had either stoode a loofe from the trueth , growen Neuters or Atheists , that they had beene without excuse before God . For seeing to know the trueth , and to be settled in it , is a thing so necessary as it is , the more difficult it is made by such meanes to finde it out , the more thereby they that are the Lordes , and haue anie grace , are prouoked to labour , and search to finde it , and to settle themselues the stronglier in it . And therefore seeing such offences haue beene , and alwaies in some measure are like to bee for the exercising of the Church , and triall of Gods children ▪ you and such as you , that by such discourses , as this , leade the people to gather such lessons thereupon , as to suspende their iudgement till all partes be agreed , or now to bee caried this way , now that way , as long as the contention lasteth , seeme to be disposed , to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheistes . If you minded to haue them settled in Religion , and preserued from neutralitie , the mother of Atheisme , it were your partes to ioyne with vs ( especially in these great diuersities of opinions about Religion , that be now a daies in the world ) to perswade them most diligently to search the Scripture , and thereby to trie all spirits , and their opinions , whither they be of God or no : yea euen so much the more , for these varieties sake , that so they might finde the trueth , and be settled in it . For they may not fainte , or giue ouer thus doing for this : for necessary it is that these should come : these haue beene , and will be for the triall , who they be indeede , that thirst after the trueth , and will cleaue vnto it . But in taking this contrary way , whatsoeuer you say , not wee , but you leade men , and that with a strong hand to Atheisme . And so much the more folly you shew , in making these collections of yours of these controuersies amongst vs , seeing amongst your selues i● were an easie matter , to put you in remembrance of a number as hoat and feircely followed contentions , as this yet euer was amongst vs . Some thing to make this appeare , I haue noted Chapter the 4. but seeing you haue neuer done with this obiection , the better to make your vanity therin appeare , let the reader further vnderstand , that your Popes themselues amongst themselues one against another , haue further proceeded in malitious contention , then euer the Lutherans , or Protestants did . For ( as Platina writeth ) when Pope long after him ( for Boniface the 6. his immediate successour was Pope but 25. daies ) caried such hatred towards him and his proceedings , that he caused his decrees to be abrogated , and ( as other Historiographers write of him ) he caused him to be taken out of his graue , and solemnly to be in a councel disgraded : which when he had done , therewith not content , he cut of his two fingers , that he vsed to consecrate withall , and cast them into the riuer Tibris . But Romanus the first succeeding him , ratified againe Formosus doings , and abrogated and disanulled all Stephens proceedings against him . Whose course Theodorus the 2 , and especially Iohn the 10 followed , in iustifying , and condemning Stephens doinges against him in another councel at Rauenna , consisting of seuenty foure bishops . Howbeit Sergius the 3. the 4 Pope after , taketh Stephens part against Formosus , and that so hoatly , as that once againe , though he were the ninth Pope from Formosus , he causeth his body to be taken vp out of his graue , disgradeth him againe , beheadeth him , cutteth of the 3 fingers that were left him of his right hand , and threw his body , and the peeces thereof despitefully into Tyber . About the yeare 1354 ( as Godfridus de Fontanis writeth ) there grew and burst out marueilous hoate contentions betwixt the Friers of Dominicke and Francis in Fraunce , about their priuiledges , and the prelates of France and the Schollers of Paris : insomuch that there were publicke and bitter Sermons made by one against another , & the one side excommunicated another . And Matth. Paris . reporteth , that there was by the prelates of France , and the doctours of Paris , nine erronious conclusions ( which by his report were of matters of great weight in religion ) laied to the charge of the Gray-friers , for the which they excommunicated them , and for which there was hoat stirre on both sides . About the yeare 1470. there was a notorious contention also betwixt the Dominicke friers , and the Minorites , the one side following Scotus , and the other Aquinas , whither Mary was conceiued in originall sinne or no : the Minorites , with Scotus , holding the negatiue ; and the other , with Aquinas , the affirmatiue : which in the yeare 1509 grew so great , that it troubled and deuided al these Westerne partes of the world , notwithstanding that Pope Sixtus the 4 , had giuen out his bull in the yeare 1576. on the Minorites side . Insomuch that some of the Dominicke friers were burned at Berne , for their deuises to maintaine their faction , as witnesseth both Pencer , and Munster . And who knoweth not of the 24. great schismes ( at least ) which haue bene in the Romish Church ? during which times ( some of them lasting verie long ) their Church was torne into so many factions , as there were Popes and antipopes . Amongst which factions and their heads , there grewe sometimes warres indeed , and when they were quietest , railing processes and excommunications one of them against the other in most bitter maner ( as the stories of those times doe testifie ) were vsual amongst them . But what should I runne any further into this matter ? Seeing it is a thing most certaine , and whereof no man can be ignorant , that hath taken any paine in reading Stories , that the Church of Rome for all her brag of vnitie , these late yeares hath beene so ful of hoate and fierie contentions , as that neuer a country , neuer an order , neuer a Cloister or Church amongst them , but it hath had most tumultuous contentions , at one time or other , both within themselues , and with others . And therefore , if this contention amongst vs be cause sufficient of such conclusions , and dangerous consequents , as you set downe in this chapter , what my all these bee , which we know haue bene amongst you , and of like , whereunto we know , your Church is yet ful ? And that more is , certain it is , that howsoeuer confidently you write , that there haue bene excommunications betwixt the Caluinists and the Lutherans , one against another about this matter ( though with griefe we must confesse , that it may be , that both partes haue exceeded their bounds but to far ) you make here a greater shew of it , than there is iust cause . For whatsoeuer certaine of the Lutherans ( as you tearme them ) haue done in excommunicating the other , yet I thinke you can neuer proue , that Caluin , or any of his iudgement in this point , haue proceeded to far against any of them . But if they had , why should this seeme so straunge a thing vnto you . For you know , I am sure , that Victor once bishop of Rome did excommunicate certaine bishops in his time of the east Church , because they would not ioyne with him and the west Church in the time of obseruing Easter . And that Stephanus another bishop of Rome went as far against Cyprian for his opinion of rebaptizing , you cannot be ignorant . Againe you know , that there are but few of the Lutherans , that pursue this controuersie so hoately ( the greater part being contented to deale in it more brotherly , and quietly ) and that the hoatest of them also haue beene so thorowly answered to all their obiections , as that there beginneth to be greater hope of vnity herein ere it be long , then you well like of , or then shal come to passe indeed if you can let it . But alas ( though it hath bene far more , especially of the one side , then any waie can be iustified ) yet what hath bene their bitternes and heat , of either side , at any time to be compared , with the bannings and cursings , fightings and brawlings , murderings , manglings , and all barbarous extremities , that the malitious and spiteful heart of man can deuise , that haue beene amongst your most holy fathers , the Popes of Rome themselues , and their fauourers & followers at sundry times , and for many yeares togither . Howsoeuer , as long as both parts agree in the fundamental pointes of Christian religion , and in the other most necessary and fruitful documents concerning this sacrament ( as clearely appeareth by a booke lately set forth of the Harmony of our confessions ) and the controuersie lieth onely about the maner of the reall presence , and eating with the mouth , which mouth-eating ( as all sides confesse ) may bee , and yet without fruit to the receiuer , the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant : the matter is not of so great moment , & weight , as that either you should neede to make such a doe about , or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for . Which ( I hope ) God will in his good time reueale vnto them , and so make them to giue ouer their contention , and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren . I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter , that you verie greatly belie vs , when you write ; that we haue giuen absolute sentence , that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present , in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead , constituted in a third place called Purgatorie . For both your deuyses of Purgatorie , and of praying to God for the releife of soules there , wee saie , and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises , founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason , dreames and fond visions , and apparitions , and neither taught by the Apostles , nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ , for three hundred yeares at least after Christ . Tertullian was the first , and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist , that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead . And vntill the Florentine councell , the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you , in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough . And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie , to haue spared this your merrie conceit , and pleasant deuise of wishing vs , though wee refuse your Purgatory , to prouide a thirde place for them , whom our contentions make constant on neither side . For either ( if you had beene wise ) you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it , or els you would haue let it alone for altogither .

The XXIX . Chapter .

IT doeth appeare well , by that that I haue saied , howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande , for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his owne particuler sense , beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God , shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine : for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques , as I haue alreadie saied . There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion , and to reforme ones conditions : for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners , a a Good stuffe , by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle , take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences . there is no need to regard , whether the doctrine be new or olde : for ( as the Apostle saieth ) let euery man take it to his owne sense : but when it is to bee talked of , as touching ones faith , the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b b And such be all they , whosoeuer made them , that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures : of wh●ch kinde your popish interpretations be . singular interpretations , and to holde them as very suspitious . c c If this rule be receiued and followed , your popery will bee found new deuises , and wil you nil you , you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church , without making any accompt of al these new deuises : for euen as , when one will repaire an olde house , he dares commit it to any mason , although his cunning bee but small : but if the foundation must be touched , he will seeke the best masters he can finde . Euen so , when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions , although that it be so , that he that seekes to reforme me , be not of the wisest of the worlde , and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture , not altogither to the purpose , yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect : for I knowe his meaning , although he cannot well expresse it , the which is to haue me change my naughty life , and to leaue my ill conditions . d d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue ●opery to be thus grounded . But when he shall come to touch my faith , and to perswade me from that , that all my ancetours did euer holde , from that , that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde , and from that that both the Scripture , and the generall Councels , and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme : in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none , but euen the verie best , I meane not one or two , but all these that I haue named . And now , if you saie , that they maie all erre , I praie , remember the olde prouerbe , that saieth : he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise , and all the other fooles , & that it is more agreeable to reason , that one onely should erre , then one great multitude : for as they say commonly , two eies see more then one , and foure more then two .

The XXIX . Chapter .

WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen , to disproue either our vocation or Religion ( for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter ) by weighing togither your obiections and my answers , now let the indifferent Reader iudge , vnto whom I doubt not ( your bragge notwithstanding ) it shall and will well appeare , that both may be builded vpon the rocke , for any thing you haue yet saied . The onely new thing , that you set downe in this Chapter , is this , that the former variety amongst them that alleadge scripture considered , you allow well , that one should listen to meane men , alleadging scripture , though not very aptlie , to reforme maners withall . But when they are alleadged to teach faith , then it is meete , that the Catholique man trust none , but the best , and those alleadging them according to the general Councels ; and all ancient doctours . And therefore you write , that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations , that he must follow the sentence helde & taught by the ancient Catholique Church , & not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith , that all his ancetours did euer holde , the Catholique Church hath euer helde , the Scriptures , generall Councels , and all the ancient doctours doe teach . In which case , if one should take vpon him to be wiser then all these , you would haue him ( according to the prouerbe ) accounted a foole , that thinketh himselfe onely wise , and all others fooles , because in reason it is more likely , that one should erre , then al these &c. Be it that al this were very true , what haue you woonne hereby against vs ? For neither shall you euer be able to proue ( as we haue often tolde you ) that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion , nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church , nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures , general councels , or fathers , as you herein take it for granted , on your side . For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides : but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations , & traditions of men , without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood , or from generall Councels , or ancient fathers , that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church . For ( as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you ) al these are farre more strong on our side , then with you . And therfore you rather are the fooles , that seeme wiser , them all these in your owne conceit , and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church , by your corrupt glosses , & allegations of these , & by your vaine & vncertaine traditions of mortal men . Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes , amongst infinite others vsed by vs . The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes : Rom. 3.24.25 . Ephes. 2.8.9 . and you condemne them as heretiques , that teach so . The scriptures with vs teach , that Christs offering himselfe once for al , hath made perfect all them that are sanctified . Heb. 10.14 . and you contrarily teach , that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse , & by a number of other things done by themselues , and others for them . The Scriptures with vs teach , that Christ is ascended into heauen , Coloss. 3.1 . Act. 1.9 . &c. and that the heauens must containe him , vntill the restitution of al things , Act. 3.21 . and you contrarily wil haue him , as oft as you consecrate , to come downe , to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine . The scriptures with vs say , concerning the cup in the Sacrament , to all Christians rightly prepared , Drinke yee all of this , Matth. 26.22 . and you say , it is heresie to holde , that the lay people must drinke thereof . To proceed a little further , the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 . forbiddeth ( as we doe ) both the making and worshipping of Images , to represent God the father , the sonne , or the holy Ghost withal ; and you allow both these . The scriptures prefer ( as we doe ) the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode , before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode : 1. Cor. 14.19 . and your Church ( as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in ) preferreth fiue words spoken there i● an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand , spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification . Lastly , the Scriptures ( as we doe ) account mariage honourable among al men in al estates , and the mariage bed vndefiled : Heb. 13.4 . insomuch , that they aduouch the forbidding of it ( though vnder pretence of holines ) to bee a doctrine of Deuils . 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 . & yet you condemne it in your priestes , as a filthie life . In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion , and the decrees of ancient and general councels . In my answere to your 17. Chapter , I haue shewed you already , that the ancient , famous , first general Councel of Nice , in the 6. Canon thereof , is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome , ouer all Churches . There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed , for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers . I haue also shewed you before , that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree , hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion , your Popes supremacy , in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges , with your Pope or Bishop of Rome . The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now , preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope . And certaine it is , that in the time of Charles the great , there was a councel called at Franckeforde , whereat the Bishops of France , Germany & Italie were assembled , about the year ( as Regin writeth in his 2 booke ) 794 , where the making and worshipping of Images , allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes ( as he tearmeth it ) was condemned . And Hickma●e Archbishop of Rheames , writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 ( Chap. 20. ) somewhat about these times , calleth this a general councel , called by the wil & commandement of the Pope , & Emperor Charles ; & witnesseth , that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks , that made for Images was confuted & reiected , but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome . As for fathers , and ancient doctors , I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency & authority of the Scriptures , Chap. 3. & 5. against your real presence , Chap. 11. & against your doctrine of Iustification , & other points of your religion , Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew them so to be against you , & with vs , in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs . At least this most confidently I doe aduouch , that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side , in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs : and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case , with a shew & bragge of that , with you are of al other furthest from .

The XXX . Chapter .

OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort , then you doe yours . a a But in another place you know he saieth , that the word that he had spok●n , should iudge them at the last day . Iohn 12. Search ( saieth * * Ioh. 5. he ) the scriptures , for they heare witnes of me : he doeth not say , that they are Iudges , as you say , for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God . You know , that they are two different thinges , to beare witnes , and to be a Iudge , and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe containe , not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ , but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person , to teach vs the true word of God , & to ouerthrowe & destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan , as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches & Prophets . It is writen in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the woman , that her seede should breake downe the serpents head . And likewise in the saied * * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 . & 24. booke there is mention made of this diuine seede of Abraham : & in the 15. & 53. Chapters of Esay , & in the 2. Psalme , Dauid doeth talke of it . And in like maner Daniel , Moses & Aaron , withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the comming & passion of our Sauiour . Moses left writen in the prophecy of Iacob , that the Messias should come , when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda . Daniel was not content to say as the rest , that he should come , b b There is no reason in the world , why you should count from that yeare , for neither Daniels words will beare it , neither yet the true account of the time from thence to Christs death : for that was about the yeare of the world 3354 , and he suff●ed Anno. 3996. as Functius calculateth . Neither is there any mention in Dan : of 72. weekes , but of 70 , & of numbers whereinto he deuideth that . Beside it seemeth that your Arithmetique or wits , were very slender to reckon 72. weeke● , that is so ma●y times 7. years , to be iust fiue hundred , when as if you account againe , you shall finde , that your number is not so iust by 4. as you would seene , for 72. times 7. makes 504. A sha●efull learned man sure you haue shewed your selfe here . but he did assigne the very time , that is to say , by the seuenty two weekes , counting from the fourth yeare of the raigne of Zedechias , vntil the time that our Sauiour was na●●ed vpon the Crosse , the which time was iust 5. hundred years . Then , seeing that Christ came at the verie prescribed time , he might well haue saied vnto the Iewes , that the Scriptures did beare witnes of him . But yet to say the trueth , if he had done no other but this , he had not fully approued his vocation , to condemne their incredulity . For they might haue saied vnto him : we know wel , that by the saying of the olde prophetes the Messias should come of the line of Iacob , about this time , forasmuch as the scepter of this kingdome is taken from the line of Iuda , to be deliuered vnto Herod : But what though , is this a good consequence : a a But now that t●is point is sufficiently confirmed already , & so also al the doctrine of the gospel by him and his Apostles , therefore now to refuse to beleeue the ordinarie ministers of the Church , vnles they proue the same againe by miracles , which is your dea●ing with vs , is an euident signe of vnbeliefe . the Messia● ought to come about this time , therefore it is I ? No , no , shew vs your commission , let vs see some signes , how we shal know it : for if we should receiue you as our king , it may be , that some other would come and craue the like , saying , that we were abused Our Sauiour Christ sore fearing this obiection , to●ke another witnes with him besides the scripture , I meane his miracles . The workes that I doe ( saieth * * John . 5. Christ ) in the name of my father , beare witnesse of me . The like proofe is made , when S. Ioh. * * Mat. 11. Baptist sent his disciples to our Sauiour , to haue him teach the true beliefe , that they should haue in him : this question was put to him , art thou he that should come , or ought we to attend for some other ? Go your waies ( saied Christ ) and tel Iohn what yee haue heard and seene , The blinde receiue their sight , the lame doe walke vpright , the dumbe speake , the deafe heare , the lepers are cured , the dead are raised againe , and the poore are preached vnto : the which is as much to say , as , tel Iohn , that I am the true Messias , & that he ought to attend ●● other . I doe verifie my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles . For first Esay doeth write , that when the Messias should come , he should doe the Miracles aboue mentioned . Then , seeing that I haue done them in your presence , it foloweth , that I am he that should come . Thus you see Sirs , that both the b b And by the same scriptures , and by the same Miracles , we iustifie our vocation and religion : what wil you haue more ? Scripture and Miracles were necessarie for the confirmation of the comming of Christ among the Iewes , who were neuer harder of beleife then we are , according to your opinion : and therefore blame vs not , if we sende you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures , c c But they doe . 2. Thess. 2. & Apoc. 14. vers. 8.6 . and 7. the which doe neither beare witnes of your comming , nor yet doe any miracles , the which two thinges and more , are necessary to make vs beleeue your reformed Gospell .

The XXX . Chapter .

THe drift of this Chapter is to proue , that Christ did not onely warrant his vocation & doctrine by the testimonies of the Scriptures , but also by miracles : which I grant you proue sufficiently . Wherupon you would conclude , that we accounting you as hard of beleife , as euer were the Iewes , therefore we should proue our calling and religion vnto you by both : whereas ( if it be true , that you say ) we can doe neither , and so are to bee sent packing like coggers onely of the Scriptures . Whither the Scriptures giue testimony vnto our religion or no. I referre to the reader to iudge by that which I haue writen already , & by that we haue writen from time to time in our bookes made in the defence of our religion . And concerning our vocation and calling , I trust , I haue sufficiently confirmed that , by them also , in that I haue shewed our calling to be conformable to the calling of true Pastors in the Apostles time . But if further you require a more speciall testimony from thence of our comming by our calling , I sende you now to 2. Thess. 2.8 . and Reuel. 14.6 . &c. where it is prophecied , that God would towards the later end send his messengers againe to consume Antichrist , and by preaching the euerlasting Gospel , to ouerthrow Babylon . And as touching miracles , you haue bene answered sufficiently already : but that you complaine not , that we refuse to answere you , as long as you can obiect any thing : to this now alleadged I say , that you must vnderstand , that it was necessary for Christ , to confirme his calling by miracles , because it is true ( as you alleage out of Esay ) that it was prophecied , that the Messias should worke miracles , when he came : & so also it was necessary once to establish and confirme the particular doctrine of his person , the ceasing of the ceremonies of Moses law , and other such new & strange things , as the comming of the Messias brought with it , both to Iew and Gentile : which reasons you cannot shew , why we should work miracles now , to confirme our vocation or religion by to you . For neither was it prophecied , that the ministers of Christ should bring Antichrist to consumption , or the whore of Babylon to her fall , by working of miracles , but ( as you haue heard ) by the spirit of Gods mouth , breathing in his euerlasting gospell : the force whereof , in our ministry , you perceiue daily to be such , that it is euen a miracle and wonder vnto you , to see in how short time it hath preuailed , and preuaileth still against your kingdome , doe you what you can to let it : neither neede those things so notably once confirmed by Christ and his Apostles ( which are the onely things that wee teach ) to be for your sakes confirmed againe , though you be neuer so harde hearted . The word writen , and the miracles therin recorded already , must serue the turne , to conuert you to our religion therein taught , and thereby sufficiently ratified , or else ( gibe at it howsoeuer here ) you shall one day , to your smart ( I feare ) find your selues to be without all excuse .

One tricke of your learning yet I maie not forget , which you haue in the beginning of this Chapter ; which is this , that alleadging this saying of Christ , Search the Scriptures , for they are they that testifie of mee , you note , that he saied not , they are iudges , but they bearewitnes of me , which you tell vs , are two different things . This was by the way to giue vs a blow , that would haue no other Iudge , but the word of God . And to what end , would you haue the Scriptures , but to stand at the barre , as witnesses ? Truely that your Pope , and your Church might sit on the bench , as iudges , to giue sentence , as it pleased them , whatsoeuer the witnesses depose . But what little reason there is therein , nay , what blasphemy that sauoureth of , you & euery man may learne by the certaine & infallible trueth alwaies witnessed vnto vs by the one , & of the manifold errors , iudged and practised by the other . It is worthy the marking , to see how still it grieueth you , that the Scriptures , or certaine word of God should sit aboue your Popes & you , to check & controle your doings : and how faine you would bring them vnder , to bee iudged & ouerruled by you . But to answere this your obiection , you must be put in remembrance , that there is not such a difference betwixt a iudge , and a witnes , but one & selfesame man may be both a witnes & a iudge : & that if there be such a force in this word witnes , here to driue the Scriptures to the barre to stand but amongst witnesses , there is as great , force in the word Iudge , in another place to bring them to the bench againe , to sit as iudge . Remember your selfe therfore , that the same Christ , that saied here , that the Scripture beare witnes of him , sayed ( Ioh. 12.48 . ) to such as you are , He that refuseth me & receiueth not my words , hath one that iudgeth him , the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him at the last day . And neuer disdaine you , that the scriptures , that bare witnes to Christ , sit as iudges ouer you and your doings : if you doe , the wil not serue your turne . For Christ hath tolde you , what you shal trust to , if you wil not stand to their iudgement here , you shall one day ( wil you , nil you ) be iudged by them to your smart elsewhere . Wherefore howsoeuer in the end of your former Chap. you count him a foole & to be reiected , that counselleth you to leaue that which you take to be the catholicke faith , confirmed by the ancient Doctors , & general councels : if he bring scripture indeed on his side , you wil proue most foole , if you beleeue him not . This your Gerson saw , & therfore he hath writen , that there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures , and hauing thēof his side , then either to the Popes sentence , or to the decrees of a general councel . And your Abbot Panormitan ad Canonem , Titulo , de Electionibus hath the like saying . But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors , to ioine with vs in our religion , we doe not perswade you from that , but to that indeed , which our ancestors , whom we may safely follow , the Patriarches , Prophets , Christ , & his Apostles hath taught vs : and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors , & lawful Synods , and councels euer since vnto this day taught vs . This wee are sure is true . For we finde our selues able by the Scriptures , the sound monuments of antiquity , & the Cronicles of al times , & ages to proue , and iustifie it to be so , against al gaine-sayers . And therfore I would wish you , for fear of the sentence of this Iudge , the scriptures ( though you labour neuer so much to bereaue them of that office of a Iudge amongst you ) that neither lacke of miracles working by vs , nor the glorious dombe shewes of catholique faith , Catholique Church , ancient fathers , and councels &c. hold you any longer from ioining hands with vs . For to pretend all these neuer so much , wil no more excuse you from falling vnder the sentence of this Iudge , then the like did your predecessors , the hie priests , Scribes and Pharisees in Christs time : who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments , kept themselues backe from yeelding vnto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles , to their vtter destruction . The Lord of his infinite mercies , open your eies in time , and giue you once grace in simplicity of heart , to search for the trueth of religion in his writen word , and to leaue deceiuing of your selues & others , with these sounding and swelling words of vanitie Amen . Your childish and grosse ouersight & ignorance by the way shewed about Daniels 70. weekes in this Chapter is most pitifull . For whereas he speakes but of 70 , you say he did speake of 72 , & those you count to containe lesse yeares by 4. then they doe , and contrary to al trueth of story , & the expresse wordes of the Angel , Chapter 9. set downe by the Prophet , you appoint them their beginning before the Captiuity , wheras they must of necessitie beginne after .

The XXXI . Chapter .

YOu a a But not alone fo● especially we comfort our selues in the goodnesse of the cause . do alleage the inuincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past , for at this present , if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preaching , then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine , your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is . You glorie in your Martyrs of times past , which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holie Cittie Geneua . But in this ye are much deceaued , for S. Iohn Chrysostome in his first oration against the Iewes doeth say , that the paine doeth not make the Martyr , but the cause : for otherwise the theeues & murderers might claime the like title , although they suffer for another cause : for we honour and loue the martyrs ( saieth he ) not for the torments that they doe suffer , but for that it is for Christ , & that they suffer for Iustice . b b There is no such thing there , turn the place who list , yet I de●● not , but in some other place he may write so , but no wher against such as we , but rather against such as commo●ly your fellowes be here in England , who dying for t e●s●n , yet you wil canonize for holy Martyrs . And S. Augustine in his first booke contra Epistolam Parmeni●ni , Cap. septimo , writing against some of your fellowes that presumed to be Martyrs , he doeth say , that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour , or by the king for matters of Religion , otherwise ( saieth he ) the Deuils might attribute vnto themselues the glorie of martyrdome , because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperours hands , when throughout the worlde , their Idoles were pulled downe , and they cast out , and those that did offer sacrifice vnto them grieuously punished : then ( saieth he ) the iustice is not certaine through the p●ssion , or for hauing suffered death : but the death and passion is glorious , when it is for the sustaining of the true faith . And therefore ( saieth he ) our sauiour , because he would not haue the simple deceiued vnder this colour of trueth , he did not onely say : blessed are those that suffer ( but hee added ) for iustice . But this can in no wise be attributed vnto those heretiques that suffer , to seperate the vnion and concorde of the Catholique church . c c In that booke it appears , these Donatists did indeed complaine and yet brag of their persecutions but thus much I finde not there testified against them , or of them . In his booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum he writeth to this effect of them . And in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae , contra Epistolam Petiliani , he doeth write , that the Donatists , which were a sect of heretiques that raigned in his time , to confirme their doctrine , they did not attende , that others should put them to death , but they did cast them selues downe from high places : others did burne themselues in the fire , to be honoured after their death as Martyrs : and that is more , they did threaten men , if they would not kill them . d d He writes in that epistle no such thing , you had the worst lucke in quoting of your testimonies that euer had a●y , for 3. for one you cite wr●ng . S. Cyprian in like maner doeth write in the first booke of his Epistles , in the first Epistle , that though an heretique suffer death for Christ , that doeth not confirme him as a Martyr , but that his death is the very punishment of his errour● , and that he cannot go to heauen , which is the mansion of the humble : for seeing that he doeth seperate himselfe from the house of peace , which is the church ( yee know well of what church he doeth speake ) that he cannot be receaued into heauen , &c. All those that haue writen the histories of the Bohemians doe say , that in the time of e e Zisch● was a famou● souldier & captain , but minister he was none . one Zischa a martial minister of the heresie of the Heborits , or Hussites , there were a certaine sect of heretiques called Adamites like vnto the olde heresie of the Nicholaites : for they did saie , as these doe , that mens wiues should bee common , and they went all naked , euery one taking the woman hee liked best , whom hee did carie vnto their minister , and before him hee did saie , the holie ghost doeth inspire me to lie with this person : then the saied reuerent father did giue him his blessing : saying , Increase and multiplie , and so they went awaie . This aboue named Zischa , although hee had done a number of wicked deedes , yet hee determined to abolish and take awaie this sect , f f And therefore popish traytours that are executed amongst v● for high treason , though they seeme to take their death neuer so patiently , we lawfully coū● & call t●aitours , though you ●anonize them for Saints . and so he caused two women to be burnt for this abhomination , the which two ( notwithstanding the torment of the fire ) did sing and giue thankes to God , for that it had pleased him , to permit them to die for so holy & so iust a quarrell . Did not Michael Seruet , who was once master Caluins dearling , rather desire to suffer at Geneua , then he would confesse , that Christ was God ? and yet notwithstanding his great patience ( or to saie the trueth , diuilish obstinacy ) cannot be sufficient to make him a Martyr , nor to perswade you , to beleeue his doctrine . g g What need all these seing none of vs euer stande vpon the bare sufferings of men , no more then you ? you should yet haue named the places , where these things are writen , and not thus haue sent vs to seeke we cannot tell where . There is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called Ioachim Westphall , who in a worke of his doeth mocke at Caluin , who did vaunt , that within these fiue years aboue an hundred had suffered death , to sustaine the Gospell of Geneua : and he doeth answere him at large , prouing that the sect and doctrine of the saied place , ought not to bee approued for the multitude of false martyrs : for the Anabaptists whom he doeth iustly n , haue had of their sect a great many more , for in lesse than three years there haue suffered a great number more then euer there did suffer of Caluinists in fifteene . And to conclude this matter , the saied Westphal doeth say , that the deuill hath his Martyrs ( euen as well as God ) with whom like a good sergeant he doeth march giuing the vauntward vnto the martyrs of the Caluinists , that haue suffered at Geneua . h h The more to blame are they if they should say so , but though heat of contention caused Westphalus to write so bitterly , I thinke very few will ioyne with him in this iudgement : sure I am they whom you cal Caluinists doe not iudge so of them , because of that 1. Co. ● . v. 15 So that if one demaund of the Lutherans , whither go those that die in the Religion of Caluin , of Beza , or of the Anabaptists ? they saie , to the Diuell . And if one demande of the Caluinists in like maner , whither go the Anabaptists and the Lutherans ? they saie likewise , to the Diuell . And who would put the like question to the Anabaptists , I am assured they would saie at the others , to the Diuell . For my part I beleeue you , I assure you , all three . i i This argueth a most diuelish and profane spirit in the writer . And seeing that yee agree so well , that one serue for an others harbenger , we were very fooles , if wee should stay your passage , but let you go all to the Diuell for company , for I thinke if you were all gone , our debates would cease , and hell would be so full , that the deuill would long for no more .

The XXXI . Chapter .

YOu neede not to tell vs , that Augustine and Chrysostome haue taught , that it is not the death , but the cause , that maketh a martyr . For we know that to be a most certaine trueth , and the generall doctrine of all good writers both olde and new : and therefore you might haue spared your paines bestowed in the proofe of this . And therefore most willingly wee acknowledge ( as Christ hath taught vs ) that onely they are blessed martyrs , that suffer for righteousnes sake . Mat. 5. and none to be martyrs , howe patientlie soeuer they seeme to suffer their deathes , that by for an il cause , either in life or doctrine . And yet we are not ignorant , that many haue died in lewde , and for lewd opinions , who yet haue seemed to die willingly and cherefully : and therefore wee deny not , but that it may be true , that some such wicked women of that beastlie heresie of the Adamites , were put to death in Zischaes time , in Bohemia , & died , as you write : and that it is possible , that such filthy heretiques , as Seruetus was , may shewe themselues stout in dying . But what is all this to proue , that our martyrs haue broken the vnion of the Catholique Church , or that they died as heretiques for heresie ? Before you can say any thing to the purpose , either to proue them no true martyrs , or to blemish their patience , you should haue proued , that their cause and religion , for which they died , was not the sound Christian trueth and faith : but that you wil neuer bee able to doe . And therefore both al this , and what els you haue noted ( though falsely , for there is no such thing , in either of these two places ) out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani , of the Donatistes forwardnesse to die , and out of Cyprians first booke of Epistles , falleth downe to the ground as needles besides the question . For whatsoeuer they there spake , they spake it of heretickes , & therfore it hath no force against vs , vntil you can proue vs so ; in alleadging Cyprians testimony by the way of parenthesis , you say , we know of what Church hee spake , when hee sayed , the heretiques that hee wrote of , could not bee saued , because they separated themselues from the Church , the house of peace . Indeed wee knowe , that hee ment not your Church , which is a bloudie house , a house of warre , & contention : a house of error , & superstition , but the Church of Christ that was in his time , to with yours is not so like , as a drunken man is to a sober & discreet man : or a whore vnto an honest matrone : for there is likelihood in substance , though not in quality , & yours is vnlike to the Church then in both . Zischa you cal a martial minister of the Heborites , or Hussites : you would say , or ( at least I am sure ) you should say , a noble martiall Captaine : for minister he was none of them , whom their malitious enimies nickenamed Thaborites , or Hussites : for so they were called , & not as you call them . At your pleasure you call Michael Seruet , Caluins dearling , but you cannot proue , that he was euer in any such account with Caluin , why you should tearme him so . But yet if he had beene so , thorow his cunning in dissembling his heresie for a time , the more commendation was it to Caluin , that when he proued an obstinate heretique , hee was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God , that all former affection set a part , he furthered his due punishment , as he did . And for al your speech , of his willingnes to die at Geneua , and great patience in dying , I cannot read , but that he shunned death there , as much as he could , keeping or holding still his heresie , and that thousands haue died on the gallowes for murder , felonie , and treason , with as great shew of courage and patience , as he . But to let these things passe , and to returne againe to your principall drifte in this , which was ( as you shewe in the beginning of it ) to proue , that neither our vocation , nor religion could get any credit by the inuincible patience of our holy martyrs ; what hath bene saied as yet to proue this ? Your onely argument hitherto hath beene this , The cause , that a man dyeth for , must bee good : and hee must bee no heretique : many heretiques haue dyed with great shew of patience : Ergo &c. This argument is starke naught : for al these things in your antecedent may be graunted , and yet of al them togither your conclusion followeth not . These thinges which are not at al in question you haue proued ; but this that indeed should haue giuen life to your argument , that ours died in , and for an ill cause , & were heretiques ( which is indeede the thing onely in question ) like a wise man ( because you could not proue it ) you let alone . But therfore you shall be contented ( for al your miserable crauing of it to bee granted you ) to be denied both it and your conclusion , which , without it you can neuer come vnto . You will therefore proue ( as you make your reader beleeue ) that our Martyrs were such , as died in an ill cause as heretiques , and therefore went to hel . But what be your proofes ? Ioachim Westphalus a Lutheran , in a worke of his ( but it seemeth either you could not , or would not tel vs in what worke , for some politique reason you had doubtles ) mocked at Caluin , for vaunting ( but where he made this vaunt , or where we may finde it , you tel vs not ) that within fiue yeares aboue an hundred had died for the religion of Geneua , prouing vnto him , that seeing there had beene far moe of the Anabaptistes put to death in lesse space , and that the Deuill had his Martyrs : his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs : but they might for all his bragge , be in the vauntgard of the Deuils martyrs . What a miserable argument is this ? A contentious man in the heat of his contention saied thus to disgrace his aduersary and his side , therefore therupon it shall follow , that it was well and truely saied of him . I thinke you will grant me , that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both , yet in heat of contention one against another , Epiphanius burst out into such choler , as he saied , that he hoped the other should neuer die bishop : to whom Chrysostome answered as angerly again , that he trusted the other should neuer returne aliue into his own cuntrey of Cypres : & infinite be the examples , whereby we may see , that men otherwise haue in heate of contention marueylously ouershot themselues one against another . And therefore God forbid , that vpon euery speach of disgrace vttered in such a case by one against another , should by and by a firme argument be gathered , that it is euen so , as the one hath saied of the other .

But you will say , you stand not so much vpon his speach against Caluins Martyrs , as vpon that , that there were mo of the Anabaptists , that had died in a shorter space , then he talked of , and that otherwise , the deuil hath had his martyrs , which we cannot deny . Hereupon indeed it followeth , that an argument drawen to iustifie an opinion , and the followers of it , from the bare death , and shew of patience of them that hold it , is not good : but so did neuer any of vs reason . For first we labour to proue , the cause good , and that done , then in the patience of such , as haue died in so good cause , togither with the cause , we take comfort . And yet in trueth , we are sure , we may speak it to the glory of God , there were neuer either so many , or any , that so patiently died for any other opinion , or opinions whatsoeuer , as first and last died for the testimony of our religion . For we account all them ours , that haue from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospell of Iesus Christ , and in that we are able by the Scriptures , to proue our religion to be the same , we are sure , we are not deceiued in our account . In the conclusion of this Chapter , to shew your selfe to bee not onely one that dare write any thing how grosse a lie soeuer it be , but as malitious in your iudgement , as euer was any . First , you set downe , not onely , that the Anabaptists condemne them that die in Luther , & Caluins religion to hell ( which is likely inough , because they were franticke heretiques , & haue denied the foundation ) but also the Lutherans and Caluinists will & doe giue that iudgement one of another : and yet I am sure , you are not able truely to say , that euer any of Caluins iudgement saied , or wrote so . Secondly , though your owne iudgement be short , yet so it is set downe , that you shew that you beleeue that all the three sorts go thither ? And such care & compassion your catholique heart had of it , when you had done , that you iest at it , accounting your selues fooles , if you should stay their passage thither . For if we were al gone for company , you thinke you should be at quiet ( you say ) & hel would be so full , that the deuil would long for no more companie . Is this your popish diuinity , to make sport at the damnation of men ? And hold you this for a principle , that it is folly to stay men from running togither to hel ? Indeed it may be . For I haue read , that it is a rule amongst you , that , if your Pope lead headlong with him multitudes by heapes to hell , yet no man may be so hardie , as to say vnto him , why doest thou so ? Distinct . 40. Cap. Si Papa : But howsoeuer you account this diuinity , certaine I am , you wil finde it , that in no two things more , the deuils shew themselues deuils , then in these , In laughing and reioicing in the damnation of the soules of men ; and in letting them go freely for company to hell , without stoppage , as many as will . Truely , truely , God must take from you this profane and deuilish spirit of yours , and giue you grace to repent of it , or els you may be sure , how many soeuer die and go to hel before you , hell wil long for you , and you shal finde place , and roome inough there , I warrant you .

The XXXII . Chapter .

THere is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called a a What will not a passionate aduersary say , to disgrace them that he writes against ? If like testimonies of men of your Religion , writing yet , in some points one against another , wil be admitted , it is an easy matter thus to discredit your whole faction . Heshusius , the which within these three yeares hath made a booke against Caluin , Peter Boquin , Theodore de Beza , & Gulielmus Elcimalcius : & he saieth amongst other things , that Carolstadius , Zuenfeldius , Caluin , & Beza doe shew well the vncertainty of their faith , by the diuersities of opinions that there is amongst them , the which fault ( saieth he ) doeth proceede of this , that they haue forsaken the true sence of the scripture , to follow the opinions of their owne heades . b b And yet in truth lyeth therein himselfe . And in that very booke the saied authour doeth giue the lie to Caluin , because that in that hee wrote against the aboue named Westphal , hee saieth that Martin Luther and his adherents , did acknowledge him as their brother , the which thing he maintaines to be false . c c Greater & more disagreement● there are amongst you papists , and therefore these conclusions presse you rather then vs . Thus seeing yee agree togither like dogs and cattes , & that all these sects haue confirmed their false doctrine with the shedding of their owne bloud , it is best to conclude , as we haue saied before , that it is not the paine nor the torment that doeth make the righteous martyr , except we should saie , that diuerse contrary messengers are sent from one master , the which is notoriously false , for that good king from whom the trueth doeth come indeede , hath so good a memory , that he doeth neuer send contrary messengers , but rather his faithfull seruants doe all with one voice , and one accord honour him , as the father of our sauiour Iesus Christ .

The XXXII . Chapter .

HEre againe ( as in the former Chapter ) you labour to discredit Caluin , Beza , and others onely with the testimony of Heshusius an vtter enemy of theirs , about the quarrel of the controuersie of the Sacrament , whom heat of contention , and a desire therefore to disgrace his aduersaries , rather then iust cause , led thus to write . For what reason had he there to ioyne Zuenfeldius with Caluin and Beza , with whom they helde no more communion and fellowshippe , then hee himselfe , and Corolstadius , who was a doctour in Wittenberge in Luthers time , and an associate to him in disputation against Ecchius , he might with more reason haue ioyned with Luther himselfe , and his partners , then with these . And howsoeuer the intemperate heate of contention emboldened Heshusius , to giue Caluin the lie , most certaine yet it is , that Melancthon a great frende of Luthers , whom Heshusius cannot deny was an adherent of Luther , accounted of Caluin , as of a good brother . For in an Epistle which he wrote to him , he calleth him Charissim● . fratrem , most deare brother ( it is the 187. Epistle in the booke of Caluins Epistles . ) And I am perswaded , that what Caluin wrote , he was able to iustify in this behalfe , how rudely soeuer angry Heshusius gaue him the lie . This obiection of our disagreement hath beene oft enough vrged and answered alreadie . It seemeth , that you haue great penurie of arguments against vs , when this must come in thus often , especially seeing ( as I haue shewed ) greater contentions haue beene amongst your selues . In which cases would you haue thought a man should haue dealt wel with you , if the bitter speeches of the one side , had alwaies beene taken as sufficient argumentes to disgrace the other ? Or would you haue liked , that thereupon a man should inferre ( as you doe ) that you agreed no better , then dogges , and cattes ? and that therefore you so differing amongst your selues came not both from one master , God , who vseth not to sende contrary messengers : this had beene an harde conclusion against a number of you in the time of your schismes betwixt your Popes , and Antipopes ; and in the times of the contentions of your Friers with your other Prelates , and also amongst themselues ; whereof I haue put you in remembrance before , Chapter twenty eight . And yet if you will needes meate this measure vnto vs , vpon occasion of this one controuersie about the maner of Christs reall presence , you must bee contented , that vpon moe and greater contentions , amongst you , wee sende you home as good measure againe . As for your conclusion , that it is not the paine , but the cause , that maketh a true martyr , wee graunted it you at the first : but where to make way , to bring it in here againe you insinuate , not onely that the Donatists , Adamites , Seruetus , and the Anabaptistes ( of whom you haue spoken in your former Chapter ) haue died to confirme their false Religion ( which we graunt you ) but that these also , that you spake of last , Lutherans and Zuenfeldians haue done so likewise ; therein your fault is double . For first in so saying you tearme the Religion , for the which they whom you call Caluinists and Lutherans died , false , which you shall neuer be able to proue so to be : and secondly in so saying you would seeme , to make your Reader beleeue , that amongst those , whom you call Lutherans , some haue died euen for the confirmation of their singular opinion , wherein they differ from their brethren , whom you call Caluinists ; and that so some haue died for the confirmation of Zuenfeldius vanities , which is more also , then you can proue , I am fully perswaded .

The XXXIII . Chapter .

SOme of your godly sect ( to a a If you had meant to deale plainely , you should haue named the man & the place where any of vs do thus childishly reason . verifie that the vocation of your ministrie doeth come of God ) doe set before our eies the holines of those new Christians , that is to saie , how they neuer sweare , but yea for yea , and no for no , that they doe no wrong to no man , that they doe neither robbe nor steale , but that they are content with that that God hath sent them , & that they are very charitable to the poore : then seeing that our sauiour doeth saie , that one shall know the tree by the fruit , b b ●ndeede we may truely say , howsoeuer some that professe our religion , either through the common frailty of man or hypocrisie , haue too too little of this fruit growing of them , that yet if they should follow the rules of our religion , they should bear this sweet & pleasant fruit abundantly . we ought to confesse ( saie they ) that the tree being good , the fruit is good : that is to saie , their Religion is good , seeing that , by the grace of God , it doeth produce such sweet & pleasant fruite . I answere you first to this , that our sauiour doeth not euer giue generall rules , but that that most commonly doeth happen , as when he saieth , that * * Luc 6. of the abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh , would you affirme by this , that his meaning was vniuersally ? God forbid , that he that is the authour of all trueth should meane so starke a lie . Doe you not remember what speech he did vse to the Pharisees , when he saied , * * Mat. 15. this people doe honour me with their mouthes , but their hearts are farre from me ? you see that this sentence is contrary to the other , if you doe not vnderstand it as I haue saied , that is to saie , that manie times a man doeth vtter that , that is in his heart : as a ruffian takes great pleasure to talke of quarels , a proude person to talke of hautie enterprises , a couetous man to talke of riches or gaines , and so it is of all other sinnes . But with all this a man may not affirme truely , that hypocrisie doeth neuer raigne in their hearts , whose mouthes are full of Gods word . * * Dan. 19. The Iudges of S. Susan , had not they God and his lawes in their mouthes , and the Deuill in their hearts ? * * John . 18. We haue a lawe ( saied the Iewes and Pharisees against Christ ) and according to this lawe giuen vs by Moses , he ought to die . The zeale of iustice did sound in their mouthes , and hatefull enuie did dwell in their heartes . And therefore you see manie times , that man doeth speake contrarie to that that hee thinketh , and euen so it is of the sentence of our Sauiour , when he saieth , that by the fruite one shall knowe the tree . For manie times naturally the fruit is good , although the tree be worth nothing , c c The heathen Philosophers liues , howsoeuer they caried a shew of the matter of holines , they cannot be said to be holy & good indeed because their workes were without faith , & lacked the form of good workes . as the famous liues and workes of diuerse heathen Philosophers doe witnesse , of whom the holines and scrupulosity of conscience was such , that I doe beleeue assuredly that at the daie of iudgement , a great number of Christians which leade Painims liues , will be cofounded with the example of those men that knew not God . Thus of the first , the fruite is good , but the trees are worth nothing , for their Religion was false & Idolatrous , applying , as S. * * Rom. 1. Paul doeth saie , the truth of God to vnrighteousnes . And as for the second , the trees are good , being grafted vpon the true Catholique Religion , but the fruites doe degenerate from the stocke .

The XXXIII . Chapter .

IN this Chapter you saie , that some of vs haue gone about to iustifie , that our vocation is of God , by the holines of life found amongst vs , because Christ hath saied , The tree is knowen by his fruit : and the good tree bringeth forth good fruite . Mat. 7.17 . Howsoeuer thus you would perswade your reader , that wee are driuen to vse these kinde of arguments , taken from the shew of patience in our Martyrs , and the goodnes of the liues of the professors of our religion , the trueth is , though sometime the goodnes of their cause considered , we take comfort in their patience , and the reformation that our religion hath wrought in many remembred , in some sort we reioice therof also , yet neuer did we build the credit of our vocation or religion vpon either of these . For we know , there may be & hath bene great shew of patience in such as haue died for heresie : and that religion is not to be iudged either by the badnes or shew of goodnes in the liues of them that professe it . For both amongst the professours of sound Religion , we know there hath alwaies beene , are , and will be some lewd liuers : and also amongst those of a false Religion , thorow the force of hypocrisy and superstition , there hath beene found , and may be still , a marueilous great outward shew of holines and piety . And therefore doe we alwaies teach our hearers , & readers , to learne to discerne the true Religion from the false , by searching the Scriptures , and not by viewe of these thinges which therein may deceiue them . Wherefore you might very well haue eased both your reader , & your selfe of all the paines you haue taken about this matter in these foure next Chapters . Howbeit , seing you could aforde so much needeles paines , to disgrace what you could , the profession of the trueth , I will bee contented to take so much paines , as to weigh what you haue saied , and giue you such answere , as you deserue , for the maintenance of the credit thereof . In this Chapter first you would proue , by conference of this foresaied rule of Christ , with this saying Luke 6. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh , that it is no more generall than that . For after out of Math. 15. and other places you haue shewed , that notwithstanding that saying of Christ , man oftentimes speaketh otherwise , then it is in his heart : you conclude , euen so is it many times , naturally the fruite is good , when the tree is naught , as in the good liues of many heathen philosophers : and contrarily , the trees may bee good , as grafte vpon the true Catholique Religion , and yet the fruites degenerate from the stocke . Be it graunted , that Christs meaning was no more generally to be taken in the one , then in the other , and that it followeth thereupon , that euen as sometime a man through hypocrisie may speake well and thinke ill , so a good tree may sometimes by some occasion haue some fruite not answering the goodnesse thereof , intermingled with the good , yet you shall neuer be able to proue , but that Christes speech here is so generallie true , as that alwaies a good tree bringeth forth good fruite , and a bad tree bad fruite : as alwaies it is true , that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh at one time or other , though at sometimes also and in some thinges the mouth be bridled . For Christ doeth not deny , but that euen of a good tree there may bee founde here and there a rotten apple , a worme-eaten one , or otherwise not answerable to the naturall fruite of that tree . For hee knewe , what imperfections there were , and would bee alwaies founde in the best men : neither doeth hee that saied , Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh , saie it would alwaies be so . For he knewe , how through hypocrisie oftentimes the abundance of filthie matter lying in the heart would bee dissembled . It is sufficient for the verifying of these two Prouerbes generallie in that sence , that Christ meant them , that the good tree naturally bringeth forth good fruit , and the bad , bad fruit : and that the abundance of the heart will make the mouth at sometimes bewray that , which lieth in the heart , let otherwise hypocrisie doe what it can . And therefore you conclude more , then your premises will beare . For though it bee graunted you , that the one prouerbe hath some limitations as well as the other , yet it must bee onelie in maner , as I haue saied . Whereupon will neuer more followe , that an ill tree may haue sometimes naturallie good fruite growing vpon it , and a good tree , bad fruite : then it will euer be found false , that at one time or other out of the abundance of the heart euerie mouth will speake . And the examples , you haue set downe are both vnfitte . For neither were the workes of the heathen philosophers ( what shewe soeuer they had outwardly of goodnes ) good workes indeede , nor euer will it be graunted you of any that can distinguish betwixt good and euill , that a Catholique in your sence ( with doubtles with you is one of the Popish Religion , that now is ) is a good tree ? The reason of the one is , because howsoeuer the works of those philosophers had in them the matter of good workes , in the conformity they had to the outward actions commanded by the law , yet they lacked the forme of good workes , in that they neither proceeded from a right fountaine , were done to a right ende , nor in right maner : and you know , that forma dat esse rei : the forme is that , that causeth the thing to bee this or that : and that it is writen , whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne , Romans . 14 , and it is impossible to please God without faith : Heb. 11. which faith they were without . The reason of the other is , that your religion being naught & Antichristian it selfe , cannot make any man or woman a good tree , but bad like it selfe : for qualis causa , talis effectus : such as the cause is , the effect will be . Wherefore for any thing you haue saied as yet , euery good tree will so bring forth good fruit , and euerie bad tree , bad fruit , as that by their fruit they maie bee discerned . And indeed ( cauill you to the contrary as much as you list ) this is most certaine : all the difficultie is in knowing the good and bad fruit that Christ meant of , and how alwaies to discerne the one from the other . In my iudgement ( and I thinke likewise in the iudgement of euerie one , that well weigheth Christes words and the circumstances thereof ) by the good fruit wee are to vnderstand pure religion ioined with an holie life : by the bad fruit , a bad religion , and like life : the good tree , that beareth the former , are onely the children of God , whom he hath regenerated , and iustified indeede in Christ Iesus : the bad tree that beareth the later , are those , that remaine in their sinnes , and vnder the burden thereof , not yet hauing had their eies truely opened , to see the trueth , nor their hearts effectually touched , and taught to beleeue aright in Christ . And these trees are to be discerned by sound triall and examination , which of their fruites are iustified by the writen and vndoubted word of God , and which not .

The XXXIIII . Chapter .

IF that the sence of this prouerbe be harde for you to disgest , I a● content to staie vntill your stomacke be somewhat better , assuring my selfe that you can interprete it no waie vnto your aduantage . There is nothing more certaine , then the good tree to beare good fruite , if one doeth not make him change his owne nature , but if one doe grafte vpon it some crabstocke or some other kinde of wilde fruite , the tree can beare no other but crabs or wiledings : euen so we Christian persons , who are the trees of God , planted by the pleasant fountaine of his grace , and purged with the holy water of Baptisme , to beare fruite at our season , so that we take euer to prosper withall , the dewe of his grace that planted vs , I meane , the faith of our sauiour Iesus Christ , so long we beare good fruite , as it is saied before , alleadging the a a The 5. you would say , as before . 3. of S. Iohn , ill vnderstood by Iouinian , he that is borne of God doeth not sinne , for the generation of God doeth preserue him , and the enemy of our health shall not touch him . b b If yo● had lookt into the booke , you should not haue found both these testimonies in one chapter , for the first is in the fift , & this in the third . And in the saied Chapter , he saieth againe , all men , or euery man that is borne of God doeth not sinne , for the seede of God is in him , and he cannot sinne , because be is borne of God . By this it is not meant , that Baptisme ( the which he doeth call the beeing borne c c He speaketh of reall & not simply of sacramentall regeneration . of God ) doeth take awaie from man the power or libertie to doe euill , for if he will degenerate from the grace that he hath receaued by the sacrament of regeneration , and that in steede of growing graft vpon the stocke of the loue of God , which is the true life , that he will fructifie towards his death and destruction , in this case hee is no more the sonne of God , for as Christ saieth , * * John . 8. If yee be the children of Abraham , doe the workes of Abraham . But as hee doeth continue and hath this good will , which was taught by the Angell vnto the sheepheardes , and that hee doeth continue , hauing the grace that was inspired in him by the holie ghost at his baptisme , so long he doeth not sinne vnto eternall death , d d Yea the Apostle to the great comfort of them that are once truely regenerat , teacheth in these places , that such by the power of that grace shall be so preserued , that they shall neuer sin , as the vnregenera● do , with their whole man vnto death . for the generation of God , that is to saie , the grace receiued by this holy sacrament , doeth so defend him , that the Deuill cannot persecute him to death , being not able to preuaile against him , and as long as this good seede , which is the word of God , doeth dwell in him , he cannot sinne , and if he did sinne , the seed would no longer remain in him . The holie ghost ( saith * * Sap. 1. the wiseman ) shall refuse the hypocrite and dissembler , and shall depart from the vaine and crafty cogitations , and therefore the grace of God and sinne can not dwell togither , nor we ought not thinke S. Iohns wordes strange , in that he saieth , that he that is borne of God doeth not sinne , for it is as much to say , as that one can not serue two masters , and that he that serueth God can not serue the Deuill . For. S. Paul saieth , * * 1. Cor. 10. You cannot assist at the table of God and of the Deuill altogether , for what communication is there betweene iustice and iniquity , or betweene Iesus Christ and Belial . And hee that doeth loue this world declareth himselfe an enemie vnto God . And a little before he had saied , he that doeth commit sinne , is the sonne of the Deuill , the which doeth not affirme , that a sinner cannot be the sonne of God , if he repent and doe penance : but in the meane while , a a If this assertion be true , ●●en as often as the regenerate either actually sinneth , or hath but a minde to sinne , he is not the childe of God . I would gladly know them , h w often the authour hath continued a more●h the child of God togither , or any man else ? he that is in actuall sinne , or hath a minde to doe euill , is as then not the sonne of God , but the sonne of the Deuill . The good tree doeth not beare ill fruite : for although the fruit doe rot or perish vpon the tree , that corruption doeth not proceede of the tree , but of the wormes , birdes , or of some other kinde of vermine : and therefore , when they say , that by the fruit we shall knowe the tree , and by the workes the faith , this ought to be vnderstood , when the fruite doeth ripe in season , and that it hath the naturall humour and property of the tree . And in a man , that he haue the influence of the true faith & not otherwise : for euen as the rotten fruit hanging vpon the tree , doeth digresse nothing from the good stocke : euen so the ill workes of vs that are Christians , ought not to staine our holy and Catholique religion . b b Thus we also answere the obiection that you make against our religion , from the lewd liues that you see in some , which seeme to be of our profession . It is a good defence for you , you thinke , why should you not graunt ● then so to be to vs ? For the corruption of our ill fruites commeth of our selues , and not of our religion , the which doeth defende vs from doing that we doe , I meane , to sweare , to blaspheme , to commit adulterie , to doe anie man wrong , or to offend God anie waie . He that doeth desire then by the fruit , to know whither the tree of our Religion bee good , hee ought not to bende his eies to looke vpon the rotten fruit , as if that were sufficient to disproue the goodnesse of the tree : but let him looke vpon the good fruites , c c You shall finde , that you farre oue●shot your selfe in your reckoning , when you compare indeed their religion expressed in their writi●gs with yours . such are all the Doctours , aswell of the Greeke as Latin church , so manie good Emperours and vertuous Kinges , Princes , Dukes and Earles , which haue raigned in France , Spaine , Germany and England , and ouer all the worlde , and haue died in the faith , leauing their workes to beare witnes of their good fruites . d d Many Kings , Qu●enes Nobles and others of our religion haue done these things also . The which haue builded so manie faire hospitals , to helpe & releeue the poore , so many goodly Colledges to entertaine fatherles children at their bookes , so manie foundations and workes for the common wealth , and that haue builded so manie sumptuous e e The first pulling of them dow●e here in England came euen from your Cardinals and great bishops , vnder the pretence therwith to found colledges , and so hauing giuen the king an example whe● he was disposed to follow it , they easily consented , indeed the abhomina●ions therin committed was their ouerthrow . Abbeies and houses of Religion , the which you with your godlie zeale haue not onely robbed and spoiled , but that that is more odious , you haue pulled them cleane downe , to deface the memorie of our ancesters , & to acquite all these which are notable monuments , you brag of the good deedes that your good Christians doe , which are much like vnto the gaines of those that vse to cog at dise : for although they win much it is neuer seene : or like the Iewes , which to colour their horrible crueltie in putting our sauiour vniustly to death , they went & bought with the monie that they gaue to Iudas , a field to bury the dead . k k As deepe and grounded papists were lickorish of Abbey lands as any other , and as greedily and securely they enioy them still amongst vs . Cardinall Woolsey and the Bishop of Rochester your great Martyr , first began that course here . And so you hauing robbed & spoiled from the religious houses and Abbeies more then you are able to restore , you thinke to acquite it al with giuing a little to the poore . No , no , these deuises are but vaine , if by the fruit the tree be knowen ( as Christ saieth ) let them that haue anie iudgement , looke vpon the fruit of our trees , & then iudge , whither they be good or no.

The XXXIIII . Chapter .

PArtly in the former Chapter , but more plainly in this you shew , that you vnderstand by the trees , that Christ spake of , good Religion , and bad . But if you view the place , you will ( at least I am sure , you should ) rather thereby vnderstand , the persons of men effectually called ( as I haue saied ) or not called at all , or ( at least ) yet vneffectually called : & that sound religion is one of the principall fruits , that he meant should grow vpon the former , to discerne him from the later . For his scope was not there to teach vs , how to discerne religions , but how to discerne the children of God from the children of sathan . And thus it will proue , that the sence of this prouerbe will not proue hard at all to vs to digest , but to you : who what shew soeuer you can make with the philosophers of outward good works ( wherof you brag lustily in the later ende of this Chapter ) yet you shall neuer be able to proue your selues good trees , because your Religion by the sound and perfect touchstone of the scriptures , wil be proued false , and Idolatrous . This your selfe giue to be the very reason , why the philosophers were bad trees , notwithstanding that in respect of outward shew of holines , we may truely confesse with you , that euen their liues at the day of iudgement shall & will confound a number of Christians in name , which led Painims liues . And therefore vntill it be set out of question , that your Religion is not false , nor Idolatrous ( which is impossible , as long as the Scriptures keepe their place ) if you bragge of ten times moe outward workes , then either you doe , or can , yet your owne mouth will condemne you , as yet to haue saied nothing to proue your selues good trees . And on the contrary euen by this your owne saying , if we can proue our religion to be the sound Christian faith , taught indeede by Christ and his Apostles , and therefore that neuer since , hell gates could preuaile against it ( which we doubt not of , whensoeuer you will enter into this controuersie with vs ) then ( for all your saying here to the contrary ) Christes sentence shall giue vs very good aduantage .

Thus hauing shewed your cunning in restraining , and collecting of this prouerbe of Christ , as I haue : now as one , that after some wresting , found it stronger for you , then you would haue thought , you graunt it to be most true , the naturallie a good tree bringeth forth good fruit , & not bad at all , and a crab-tree nothing but crabs . And this you labour to proue , first , by certaine testimonies of S. Iohn , affirming , that he that is borne of God , sinneth not , & then by other places , as Iohn . 8. Sap. 1.1 . Cor. 10. you confirme that doctrine of S. Iohn : & lastly by a similitude , shewing , that as the rottennes , wormeatennes , or any such fault in the fruite of a good tree , letteth not , but that still naturally that tree may be saied to beare good fruit , because these things fall out by some accident , vnnaturall to the tree : euen so the good tree alwaies , as it is a good tree , bringeth forth naturally good fruit . Here in effect you let go , and giue ouer the former restraining of Christs words , and recant that you saied before , the a●il tree , as the philosophers , may bring forth good fruit : & a good tree , as a Catholique in Religion ( by whom you meane a Papist ) may bring forth ill fruits : and ( will you , nill you ) you are enforced to confesse , that Christes wordes are generally true , & simply therefore alwaies verified of both good trees , and bad trees , as they are naturally considered . But yet you adde , the tree is knowen by his fruit , and faith by workes , so as then the fruit bee ripe in due season , & not otherwise . Wherein I take your meaning to be , that not euery shew of fruites , nor vnripe works , but works indeede good both in matter , and maner of doing , are the fruits , whereby a good tree , & iustifying faith is discerned . You yet proceede and say , that , as a rotten and wormeaten apple hanging vpon a good tree ( seeing that came not thorow the nature of the tree , but by meanes of wormes , birdes , or some other such accident ) ministreth not a sufficient argument , to proue that tree to be an ill tree : so the ill workes of Christians ought not to staine their holy Catholique religion . For the corruption of their fruits , commeth not from the nature of these religion , which forbiddeth such fruits or workes , but from themselues . In all this ( vnderstanding not as you doe , but as you should , the holie Catholique Religion indeede , which yours will neuer proue ) we ioyne with you , and allow , what you haue saied . And as you supposing your religion to be the holy Catholique religion , haue thus answered the obiection , drawen from the good workes of professours of our religion , and from the bad workes of yours : so euen in the same words and maner , supposing our religion , & not yours , to be that true & holy religion , your obiection against vs , grounded vpon the good workes of some of yours , & lewde liues of some that yet professe ours , is also answered . For we tel you ( as you seeme here to tel vs ) that your works are not ripe works , such as good works should be , both in matter and maner , and therefore no argument more of the goodnes of your religion , then the Philosophers works were of the goodnes of theirs : & that the ill works found in some of our professours , ought not to steine our religion , forasmuch as none of them are iustified , but condemned by the same . But in the vttering of these things you haue vttered diuers things , whereof it is needful to admonish both you , and your Reader . First , in examining S. Iohns words , you seeme simply to vnderstand , that by being borne of God , hee meant nothing else but being baptized , as though they were both one , or ( at least ) so inseparably conioined , that whosoeuer were outwardly baptized , were certainely forthwith thereby inwardly regenerated and new borne , wherein , you and al that ioyne with you therein , shew both great errour and ignorance , in the doctrine of that sacrament . For though by that sacrament , al that haue receiued it , are sacramentally new borne , and receiued into Christs Church , and therein haue had the washing away of their sinnes , in the bloud of Christ , represented vnto them , offered vnto them , and sealed and ratified , on Gods behalfe to belong vnto them , if they inwardly also will imbrace it : yet , to confound the sacrament of regeneration and the washing away of our sinnes , with regeneration and remission of sinnes it selfe , or to tye the later , so vnto the former , as that of necessity , whosoeuer is partaker of the former , is also partaker of the later , is against all good diuinity , Scripture , and experience . For diuinity admitteth not , a confounding of the outward signe with the inward grace in a sacrament ; & the scripture , & experience withall teacheth vs , the Simon Magus was baptised ; and yet no sounde diuine euer helde , that forthwith thereby he was inwardly regenerated , for by his fruites , the contrary by and by euidently appeared , Act. 8. Againe , if outwardly to be baptised , were by & by to be regenerated , then al that haue beene baptised haue beene inwardly regenerated , & all that are baptised once must needs be so : which thing if it were so , why , & how commeth it to passe , that many neuer shew any fruites of regeneration , and die giuing plaine euidence , that they were neuer borne anew , notwithstanding they were baptised ; and that there is no more hast made , to baptise Turkes , Iewes , and whomsoeuer we can come by ? But it seemeth that as you holde this errour of baptisme , that to defend it withall , you are of opinion , that a man once may be truely regenerated , and so the childe of God , iustified and sanctified in the bloud of Christ , through grace , and yet afterwardes in conclusion finally may so fall awaie , that he become the childe of the Deuill , and this is the second thing that I though good to admonish you , and your reader of . For this is also a most dangerous errour , shaking al the certaine grounds of our faith , and therefore to our comforte it is plainely taught vs contrarie to this in the Scripture , that the gifts and graces of God ( whereby are meant the giftes of regeneration ) are without repentance , Rom. 11.29 . and therefore whom Christ loueth once as his owne ( as doubtlesse he doeth all them that are new borne once indeede ) Iohn tels vs he loues to the ende , Iohn . 13.1 . And Paul vpon this ground ( that he knew with whom God once went so farre , as towardes them , to shew his power , and mercy in regenerating of them , that he would neuer finallie forsake them , but perfect in them , that good worke of his ) assures the Philippians , that he that had begunne that good worke in them , would performe it vntill the day of Iesus Christ , cap. 1.6 . And yet I doe not deny , but such maie haue their falles , and that in such sort , that to their owne sence & feeling , and in the opinions of others , they haue quite fallen from grace , and all the good gifts of regeneration ; but yet if before they were not sacramentally onely , but really in trueth new borne , and clensed from their sinnes in Christ ; the spirit and graces of God in them were but in this case , as the sunne hid from our eies by thicke cloudes , and as fire raked vp in the ashes , which God will cause to shine againe , and to growe to a fire in them , when hee in his good time hath caused the cloudes to vanish , and hath remooued the ashes . This you can holde to bee true in Peter , notwithstanding his fall , because Christ praied that his faith should not faile , Luk. 22. why should you not then vpon Christes praier , made generally for all his elect , that his heauenly father would keepe them , and that from euill , Ioh. 17.15 . conceiue the like of all those , whom God hath once sealed indeede , with the peculiar seale of regeneration , proper onely to his elect ? But it seemes you thinke you haue ground enough for this your opinion , in that you see many that haue seemed to stand , finally to fal ; and that you finde the promisses run vpon this condition , if we perseuere vnto the end ; whereunto I answere , that in the former , you may be deceiued two waies ; either in taking them to haue stood indeede , which yet neuer came vnto it , or in condemning them as finally to haue fallen , when as it may be otherwise : and as for the second , I say , that as it is certaine , that the promisses runne vpon that condition , so the Lord will giue all those grace , to performe that condition , that be once thus sealed to be his . For nothing shal separate them from the loue of God in Christ Iesus , Rom. 8. & such are kept by the power of god through faith vnto saluation , 1. Pe. 1.5 . You must therefore thirdly be admonished , that indeede you doe misunderstand Iohn , & the other testimonies to fortifie Iohns doctrin , as dangerously as euer did Iouinian , Nouatus , or any other , if you take them so to be vnderstoode , as it seemeth you doe , that by these places wee are taught , that none in any actuall sinne , and hauing a minde to doe euill , is in that meane while , the childe of God , but of the Deuill . If this were true doctrine , seeing it is writen , that no man liueth & sinneth not , 1. King . 8. no man can say his hart is cleane , Pro. 20. but euen when we are at the best , we must needs confesse , that those good things that we would do , we do not , & those euil things that we would leaue vndone , we doe , Ro. 7. & that if we say we haue no sin , we deceiue our selues , & there is no truth in vs , 1. Ioh. 1. & therfore it is certaine that ther was neuer child of God yet , but often times he hath had a mind to doe euill , and bene sometime in actuall sinne : I say , these thinges being most true , because both Scripture and experience teach them so to be , if this doctrine of yours be true also , then so often as there is a purpose , and performance of any actuall sinne , and as long as that is found in man , so often , and so long he is the childe of the Deuill , and not of God . If this be thus , if you knewe how farre actuall sinne streatcheth , and weighed without dissembling , how prone the best men are to fall , I am fully perswaded there is none of you all , that a whole day togither , can haue assurance , that you are any other , but the children of the Deuill . For if the Lorde should straitely marke what is done amisse , and enter into iudgement with his seruants , no man could for one daies space in trueth cleare himselfe , of all actuall sinne , committed either in word , deede or thought , by omitting good things commanded , or doing ill things forbidden . If in stead of saying , in the meane while , you had only saied , therein , and in that respect he is not the childe of God ; your speech might haue beene borne withall . For indeed in the new borne , though there be a new man , yet as long as they liue , they shall finde some reliques of the olde man , rema●ning , and so a law in their members , rebelling against the law of the spirit , Rom. 7. Gal. 5. by meanes wherof , it commeth to passe , that though sinne raigne not in their mortall bodies , and they neuer commit sinne vnto death , and transgresse with the whole man , as the carnall men doe ; yet in respect of this old man , that is left , sinne dwelleth in them , as a tyrant , and getteth them now and then , to doe him some seruice , though not with the consent and liking of the new , but it striuing against the same , as it also euidently appeareth in the two foresaied Chapters Rom. 7. & Gal. 5. wherein , & in which respect , they may be saied not to be the children of God , but in the meane while , in that by the inner man , these things that are done , through the tyranny of the old man , are not consented vnto , but misliked & striuen against by them ; therefore with Paul they comfort themselues , & say , now if I doe that which I wold not , it is no more I that do it , but the sin that dwelleth in me Rom. 7. & with Iohn ( after that through the beholding of this their infirmity , they haue confessed , that if they should say they had no sin , they deceiued themselues , & there were no truth in them ) they raise vp themselues againe saying , if we acknowledge our sins , he is faithful & iust to forgiue vs our sin , & to clense vs from all vnrighteousnes , 1. Ioh. 1. and so remaine still , euen whiles they finde these battailes , foiles , & risings againe in themselues , the children of God . For S. Iohn is not to be vnderstood , to deny simply that the new borne sin ; but to deny that they sinne vnto death , or with their full and whole power and wil , as they doe which are vnregenerated . Otherwise , he were contrarie vnto himselfe , in that he confesseth , speaking of himselfe , & such as he was , them ( as you haue heard ) that if they saied they had no sin , they deceiued themselues , & there was no trueth in them . Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places , by you alleaged , that contrarieth this my interpretation of Iohn , or confirmeth yours . For men , in the time when sinne is but thus dwelling in them , & so through their infirmity , now & then ( though against the wil of the spirit ) dursting from them : yet euen then retaine the spirit of God in them , which sheweth it selfe both in procu●ing that it was not committed , but as it were with a piece of the wil , & in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing , inwardly in his conscience , that he groweth to indignation with himselfe , for yeelding so far , & so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards , & to a firmer purpose & power , to excercise himselfe in good works , euery day dying more & more vnto sin , & liuing more & more vnto righteousnes : wherupon it commeth to passe , that such are not , no not euen in this time of their infirmity , answerable to the description of the wise man , wherwith he setteth them forth , that are not capable of the good spirit of God , Sap. 1. & such doe yet bring forth the works of Abraham , in their inner man at al time , & outwardly also vpon the recouery , from the foile of the flesh , from time to time . But sin & grace cannot dwel togither you say : & herein , you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 , Sap. 1 , Matth. 6.1 . Cor. 10. it is true , sin with his head vncrushed , in his ful power & strength , cannot dwel in the same man , in whom is the spirit of regeneration , at one & the selfesame time ; but ( as I haue said ) it may & doeth : or else , it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one man , except the man Christ . For al else daily offend & sin , but yet them sin weakened , & not in his full strength , dwelleth in the man , in respect of the flesh , that is , in respect of so much of him , as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit , & the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more , in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit , and therefore called the new man . This point of diuinity though most true and certaine , by these your speeches , it seemeth , you are not acquainted withall : but yet it seemeth strange , that you which brag so much of the spirit , to direct your Popes , your councels , & Church , should ( considering the manifold & great sins & errors they haue fallen into ) set downe this doctrine , that sin , & the spirit of God cannot dwel togither . As for your place , Wisdo. 1 , it is rightly to be vnderstood of such , as are hypocrites , and dissemblers , and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance , for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth , but such are not the children of God , that I haue described to haue in them , both the new man , and the old , spirit & flesh , & therefore such may , as I haue saied , be capable of Gods spirit , and such may be the true seruants of God , and doe the workes of Abraham , and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde , as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies , howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them . And this you must be driuen to confesse , or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation , to your selfe and all that heare you . But to passe from these pointes , which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of , let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter , wherein , after you haue shewed vs , that to finde your Religion to be a good tree , we must not looke vpon your rotten fruit , because your Religion condemneth such fruit , but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world , in your faith , and left notable monuments of hospitalls , colledges , and such like works behinde them ; you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like , but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monuments , as your Abbies and such like , and thinke to make amends with giuing some little now to the poore . Whereunto briefly my answere is , this ; all this cannot proue your Religion good , nor ours bad , vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures , and ours false . For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde , in them , whose Religion is good , & as good as these you bragge of , to the outward shew , may be found , where the Religion is false , and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine , in the former Chapter , which answere were sufficient . Howbeit , for the more full , and particular satisfying of the common reader , I say further , first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion , by the view of the rotten fruit , that we haue found in some that haue professed it , because your Religion condemus such fruit , you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you , in respect of ours : for as euident it is that our Religion condemneth sinne , yea euen to the least sinne , as euer did yours , and more too , in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne , though not consented vnto , to be sinne , which you deny ; and in that we teach the least breach of the law , deserueth in it selfe damnation , and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes , euen for the littlenes thereof , and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies , and deuises of your owne . Secondly , I say that by that , your Religion be conferred with the Religion , that most of these great personages , and doctors you talke of died in , and both of them be tried by the scriptures , and then compared with ours , it wil be founde , that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine , yea , that the ancientest and best of them died in ours , and therefore both they , and their monuments are ours , and giue greater credit vnto our religion , then all the rest doe vnto yours . And euen of late daies , diuerse famous persons of our religion , haue founded Schooles , Hospitals and Colledges , as well as yours . What Duke Cassimer is , you know , and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way , it cannot bee vnknowen . Euen now also with vs in England , a zealous professour of our Religion , and an ancient noble Counseller , Sir Walter Mildemay , hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge , called Emanuel Colledge . And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is , our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth , notable things by her selfe and others , there hath beene done , to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles , and also to the maintenance , and furtherance of learning , in both the Vniuersities ; insomuch , that I dare bee bolde to say , it is as much to the good of this Church , and common wealth , as if an other such Vniuersity as one of these , had beene now founded , built , and endued as richly , as either of these now is . And though our Cleargy men now , be not able to builde so many Colledges as yours were , yet those things that they doe that way , though they match not yours in quantity , they yet may ouermatch yours quickely in quality . For you know in the Gospell , the widowes two mites , which she threw into the treasury , for the poore , of the little that shee had wel gotten , was in Christs account , a greater almes then theirs , which threw in farre greater summes of their superfluities . Marke 12. And well knowen it is , that the richest and greatest of ours , are for their places , but beggers to them , that haue beene of like , or the same place amongst you , whereof , the reason is , not onely that they lacke a number of deuises that yours had , to encrease their gaine , but also , that they haue not your Romish consciences , which with your Popes dispensation , could make them wide enough to swallow vp the commodities , not onely of as many benefices , but also Bishopricks and other offices , ciuill or ecclesiasticall , as they could possibly get . Whereof it came , that of their very superfluities , vnlesse they had beene prouder then Lucifer , and more wastfull in belly cheare , then euer was the rich glutton , some thing might well be spared , and of a number of them , so much , as might haue procured the building of many moe then they left behinde them . Hospitals and Colledges , though you would so insinuate , we haue pulled downe none , but haue increased the number of them . And as for your Abbies , & other ●loisters of religious houses , you had for the inriching and building of them ( vnder pretence of your requiting of them with your Masses , Dirges , and trentals ) deuoured so many widowes houses , robbed so many heires , and fatherlesse children , spoiled so many Parishes of the ordinary maintenance for their ministers ; and since , the liuers in them , were growen to such height of sinnes not to be named , as that in the iust iudgement of God , there could no lesse punishment come vpon them , then the vtter defacing and ouerthrowing of them , lest if they had beene left easie to haue beene set in their former state againe , they should too easily and too quicklie haue beene shoppes and sties for the like filthinesses and abhominations againe . And yet here with vs in England , Cardinall Woolsey by the Popes authority , pulled downe the first , and to the suppression of the rest , many of your bishops and Cleargy vnder king Henry consented : and in diuers other places they haue beene also , by lawfull and sufficient authority , orderly for these causes , defaced : and doubtles though not turned to so good vses , as they might perhaps haue beene , if the wrath of God against them , for the foresaied causes , woulde haue suffered it ; yet I am fully perswaded , to a better vse by farre , yea infinite degrees , then they were before . And therefore these things considered , this rather may be counted a good worke in vs , thus to haue defaced them , and conuerted their vse , then a fault whereof wee need repent vs : And consequently vaine is your charging of vs , with seeking to make amends with giuing a trifle to the poore . This is a fault that rather toucheth your kingdome , then vs : for wee account all almes and other outward good workes whatsoeuer , to be vnprofitable to the doer , vnlesse they be done with goods gotten with a good conscience ; which wil ouerthrow most of the glory of the gay works that you most brag of : & you are they that care not , so your Church be inriched , if it be with the farming of concubines , & dispensation for any sin , & with the rentes yearly for the open stewes , & that with the which they get by whoring during their liues , so you haue it when they die . For ther was nothing more common , than for your priests to farme concubines , though they might not be suffred to haue lawful wiues , & experience hath taught , that there was no sin , but ther might be marchandise made of it , in your romish court & faire : & the your Popes a long time , haue taken rent for the stewes in Rome , & that yearely a good round summe , & that they haue bene glad to take the goods of those harlots , when they died , for their Churches vse , it is most notoriouslie knowen . And what hath beene more vsuall both in practise and doctrine with you , then to teach much satisfaction for sinne , and redemption of former faultes , to bee performed by almes giuing , especially , so it were to your Priestes and Clergy men , neuer caring so you might come by it , of their goods aliue or dead , whether euer it was well gotten , or no ? For in trueth , this hath beene the policy , that hath brought your Clergy , to so infinite wealth , as they were of , and made all other but beggers in comparison of themselues . Therefore now let them that haue any iudgement , as you wish , looke vpon the fruite of your trees , whether they bee so good or no , as you here make bragges of .

The XXXV . Chapter .

NOw seeing that you haue visited our garden , if a man maie bee so bold , I pray lend vs the keies , that we may in like maner visite yours , & that we may see the fruits of your religion . Read al the histories writen from the passion of Christ to our daies , & you shal find , that al those sects that haue left our Roman Church , haue done more mischiefe in one yeare , a a Your Romish Church that now i● , is as farre gone from the ancient pure Roman Church , as euer any heretiques went from it , and of you especially your saying is t●ue . being seperated from the saied Church , then they did in an hundred years before . But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors , enemies to the Catholique Church , it shall suffise to make a short discourse of those that haue bene of late daies , I meane the Bohemians or Hussites , whose followers you doe affirme your selues to be : for in your godly booke of Martyrs , b b This is vntrue , as euery one that wil view the ●ct , and monuments of the Church , writen by master Fox , may see . you haue placed Iohn Hus as the first Martyr of your ancient Church ( who was burnt for an heretique about an 120. years agone ) euen as we accompt c c Your religion and Stephens agree ●o wel , that if hee were aliue again , you would be as ready as euer were the Iewes , to stone him , whatsoeuer you say of him now , he being deade . S. Stephen to be the first Martyr of our Church . Now , to know , whither ye●e of the opinion of the Hussites or no , that I leaue for some other time , and for this present , I am content to condescende to that that you haue writen , I meane , that Iohn Hus did preach your Gospell , and made a number of such faithfull persons as you are , and that hee suffered death to sustaine your Religion . Then let vs see , what good fruit this did produce vnto vs : those that haue writen the stories of Boheme , and among others d d Your authour you know was a great papist , and afterwardes a Pope , & therfore worthily he is to be suspected as a partiall reporter , and yet cap. 35. before , he is enforced to confesse that the Senate had secretly murdered so many of those that called the Pope Antichrist , that the bloud of them running out of the gate bewraied it , whereupon this and some other extremities followed . Aeneas Siluius , doe testifie , that in the yeare of our Lorde God . 1418. there was a certaine monke that became an Hussite in the citty of Prage , which is the Metropolitane of that kingdome , the which accompanied with a number of companions as zelous as himselfe , they did execute so horrible a cruelty , that eleuen of the principall magistrates were driuen to flye from the Citty , to saue their liues , and seuen more ( for in all they were 18. ) being taken by them , they did cast them out at the windowes of their owne houses , and did kill them with their speares as they fell . This was done , Sigismondus being then Emperour , in the time of Martin the first Pope of Rome of that name , & Vneslaus being then king of Boheme . The next yeare after the death of this saied Vneslaus : they did spoile a a This al , is too much and more then either your authour , or the euidence of the matter , wil beate by far . al the monasteries , Abbeies and Churches of of the saied kingdome . And among others , one Iohn Zischa , who was their captaine in the Cittie of Prage , he made them all passe through the edge of the sworde , without sparing man , woman or childe . And the like was done in another towne of the saied kingdome called Messim , the yeare 1423. It were too tedious to write all their cruelties , they did not care , whither those of their company were of their sect or no , b b This is your slander for any thing that I can see in your author , or any where else but indeed no p●ople s● barbarous but you can finde in your hearts to vs● them against good Christians : yea he hath bene a Pope of Rome that hath betraied a Christian Emperour into the h●nd● of the Turkes , for so dealt Gregory 9. with the Emper●ur Fredericke . witnes Caspinian . for some were Idumeans , some Palestines , some Moabites , and some other Amelecites : euen as of your bountifull goodnesse ye call all those that will not be of your sect , Papists , Infidels , Hypocrites & Idolaters : and therefore we may iustly saie , that you are their right heares apparent , although yee haue gone somewhat before them , and ( as our sauiour saied ) accomplished the measures of your fathers by the heroicall acts that you haue done in this ( c c You may wholy thanke your selues for the desolate estate of France . almost desolate ) kingdome of France , there needeth no other witnes to proue it , but the testimonie of your owne eies and eares , which haue hearde and seene more almost then any man can write . Therefore I beseech you , not to reproch any more the abuses of our ecclesiasticall ministers : for although it be so , that they haue neede of some reformation , yet I doe thinke it is necessarie to choose some better staied persons then you are d d If you may be iudge , this wil easily be the sentence for you haue done more harme in fiue yeares , then ours haue done in 1500. S. Augustine in the first booke of the cittie of God , e e Capite 1. you might haue added . doeth magnifie in the Christians behalfe the diuine fauour of God : for he doeth write , that when the Gothes did destroie and spoile the citty of Rome , the Romans ( although they were not Christians ) did retire themselues for their sauegard into the churches and Temples of the martyrs . And the Gothes being but a barbarous nation , had that respect to God , that they neuer durst nor would enter into those holy places to doe them any displeasure . f f It is a wonder , that yo● that haue so openly slai●e thousands in Ch●rches , since your most barbarous and faithles massacres of late in France began , & as it is notoriously knowen , not yet beyond the memory of man , in Merindall and Cabriers , should yet bee so impudent to obiect this to vs as a fault ( which yet you haue not proued , to haue beene committed by vs ) wherein you glory as a vertue . You which make so great profession of the Gospell , haue shewed your selues a great deale more cruell then those barbarous people : for they did pardon all those that went to the Temples , and you haue in manie places spoiled the churches , and murdered al those that yee found in them , so that one might well saie to you that , that Optatus Myleuitanus in his booke con. Parm. Donatist . the which was , that the Donatists ought to be content ( & you likewise ) to haue wounded the members of the Church , and to haue deuided the people of God , f f If you would haue learned this lesson , it had beene well with vs . at the lest you should haue spared the alters and the temples , & not to make warre against the stones .

The XXXV . Chapter .

NOw in this , you craue the keies to enter by into our garden , to visite our trees , that so you maie see the fruites of our religion , hauing gotten in , in your owne pleasant conceit , after you had cast your eies about you , and looked a while vpon our trees : first , you bid vs read all the stories since Christ , and tell vs that so doing , wee shal finde , that all those sects that haue left your Romish Religion , or Church , haue done more mischiefe in one yeare , being seperated from you , then they did in an hundreth before . Now doing as you will vs , we finde indeed , great hurt hath beene done , by the ancient heretiques , for the space of six hundred yeares , that haue seperated themselues from the Roman Church that then was , but withall we finde , that our Church is farre liker that Church , then your Roman Church that now is , and since , what hurt soeuer hath beene done , by one or other , that haue seperated themselues from you ( though we challenge not communion with euery one that hath so done ) your owne doings we finde in stories , hath far exceeded theirs , in al kinde of impiety . Thus hauing in these general words , set a good face vpon it : as though you could say very much of the bad fruites , which you finde growing of our Religion , you beginne at the yeare 1418 , with the sturs in Bohemia ; laying to our charge , the murdering of seuen magistrates of Prage , by a certaine Monke , and his companions , & sundry other things done , by Iohn Zischa , and his army , in the time of those warres there ; then you lay to our charge also once againe , al the troubles of late in France , preferring vs for cruelty , before the Goathes , that conquered Rome , and yet spared their Temples and those that fled thither , and this is al that you spied at this your view , saue that most vntruelie ( as most clearely it appeares in Master Foxes booke of them ) by the way you would seeme to haue espied , that we place Iohn Hus as the first martyr of our Church . I answere therefore to that which you now obiect , that both those sturres of antient time in Bohemia , & these of late in France , began first of your selues , and so it clearely appeareth , both by the stories , and other circumstances , of these broiles . For howsoeuer you , out of your Aeneas Siluius ( a writer far more partial , then Sleidan whom you charged before with that fault ) report that murder of seuen Magistrates in Prage , by a Monke , to our discredit , and the rest of the sturs there , that after followed ; certaine it is , that when all was laied against Iohn Hus , in the councel of Constance , that might bee deuised any way to hurt him , & his cause , and amongst other things , he was charged with sedition , and stur that had beene before in Prage , he openly in the face of the whole councel cleared himselfe thereof , and all his followers , and sheweth indeed , that they did arise first from a letter sent from the Colledge of Cardinals , to the king of Bohemia , requiring him , that togither with them , he would renounce & forsake his obedience vnto Pope Gregory the 12 , which he did , for the which cause , the Cleargy were against the king , & so began the stur . And as for Zischaes wars , it appears in the stories , that the nobles of Bohemia , & Morauia , hauing vnder their hands and seals , to the number of 54 , entreated the councel of Constance , as they had sundry times done before , for the safety of Iohn Hus , & Hieron of Prage , and yet understanding that that councel to the perpetual infamy therof , proceeded contrary to the Emperours safe conduict , giuen to Hus , to burn them both , and to make most wicked decrees there , against the kingdom of Bohemia ; partly for the loue they bare vnto these two men , and partly prouoked by the monstrous crueltie , shewed vpon them , by the councel , to preuent the mischiefe intended further therby , against themselues , and infinite numbers of that nation ; they rose in armes , and banded themselues togither , rather to roote Papistry out of Bohemia , then to suffer the Gospell to bee rooted out from thence , which they saw was the intention of that councel . Euen your owne authour confesseth , that the iniuries done by this councell , to these two men ( to the great dishonour of the kingdome of Bohemia ) caused Zischa to doe as he did cap. 36. de historiâ Bohemicâ . So that your owne selues , and your bloudy tiranny was the cause of al the sturs there . You father also more vpon your authour , to amplifie the matter withall , then he reporteth , namelie , that they spoiled al the Monasteries , Abbies , and churches of the kingdome , and that Iohn Zischa made al to passe through the edge of the sword , without spa●ing man , woman or childe ; this all , is your addition , and it is contrary to the trueth , both of the story , and euidence of the thing . And howsoeuer the trueth were , concerning the death of those seuen magistrates that you speake of , certaine it is , that your saied author telleth of certaine men ( he was ashamed belike to name how many ) by the magistrates of Prage , before that , secretly and treacherously murdered , in their councel-house , not concealing , that they that were so priuily made away , were fauourers of the religion of Hus , and that they that so dispatched them were of yours , cap. 35. and 37 : whereupon he saieth , that that matter comming to light , there was great sturre in the Citty : wherupon , for that and other intollerable iniuries before that offered them ( not concealed by your owne authour , cap. 36. ) it may be that some such outrage , in reuenge thereof , was committed by some of their frends and fauourers , as you note out of him . Which I rather beleeue , was or might be so , because I reade in an other Historiographer , that in Zischa his time , the Consuls of Prage beeing grieued with the sturs that then were , called for Iohannes Premonstratensis , and nine of his adherents into their councel-house ( as though they would haue conferred with them of the common wealth ) and when so they had got them thither , that there they secretly slue them , which after being perceiued by some bloud , noted to haue come from thence into the chanels , that authour denieth not , but that thereupon there grewe such stur and tumult , that the people ouerthrew the Councel-house and diuerse other houses , and slue eleuen principall Citizens , whom they iudged the authours thereof . Whereby yet any man may see , that your side gaue the first example thereof , and that they therefore are as iustly to be blamed as the other . But what maruell is it to heare , that such outrages fell out in such turbulent times , especially when they that in respect of their place , should haue giuen example onely of iust and orderly dealing , behaued them selues so tyrannically and wickedly as they then there , of your faction , did ? when euer hath it beene otherwise in such times , and vpon such occasions , but that some things haue fallen out of both sides not iustifiable . Indeede I graunt it had beene farre better , that the Bohemians had taken some peaceabler course , and lamentable it was of both sides that there was such shedding of bloud , but yet when men are prouoked as they were , and can conceiue no hope of better , but rather of worse , such is the infirmity of man , that we see , it commonly falles out so . As for your ciuill warres , and the mischiefs that thereupon haue fallen out in France , you must meet with a very meane man , and simple reader , if notwithstanding the fresh remembrance thereof , and the stories therof writen , you can make him beleeue , that the fault therof is wholy ours . Nay euery man seeth , and vnderstandeth that your side are they that beganne first those troubles , that haue burned , and with sword most monstrously consumed , whole congregations , men , women , and children , assembled to exercise themselues , in praier , and hearing of the word , according as by your kings edicts , they were permitted ; & that your side it was , that vnder pretence of an honourable mariage , betwixt the king of Nauar , and the kinges sister , drew into Paris all the protestants of name , and otherwise as many as you could , and when you had them there , most tirannously and trecherously made a most bloudy massacre of them . And your friers or frends they were , that of late most villanously slew the French king . And the principals and accessaries to that most treasonable murder , are they that yet are vp in armes against his lawfull successor the king of Nauar. This and a number of such other dealings of yours , are so famouslie knowen abroad , that you come to late to buzze these things in the eares of men , that the ruins and desolation of that kingdome is to be imputed vnto vs , or that wee haue beene the men that are worse then the Goathes , and Donatists , in murdering those , that we found in your Temples . A poore simple man perhaps that reades these things in your booke , will thereupon gather that you of your side , are men that can neuer bee charged with any disorderly insurrections , and rebellions , and that your side altogither abhorreth cruelty and neuer practised any , For who would thinke that of all other , you would bee so ready , so especially , and vehemently to charge vs with these things , vnlesse you were the clearest men in the world in them ? But vnderstand Christian reader , that this is but their policy to deceiue thee , for there were neuer men more iustlie and deepely to bee charged with these thinges , then these men are . For if wee looke but into the stories of our owne countrey , wee shall finde that scarce one king hath passed his raigne without rebellion , for a long time togither , and that chiefely by meanes of the Popes cursing and banning them for money matters . This , the stories of Henrie the second , king Iohn , Henrie the third , Edwarde the second , Richard the second , Henrie the fourth , sixt , seuenth , and eight , and of late time , the stories of Edwarde the sixt , and of her Maiestie that now is , Queene Elizabeth , doe make most cleare . For in all those Princes tymes , wee reade of great troubles , and ciuill warres in this land , and that alwaies especiallie stirred vp by the Popes , and their fauourers , if they had not what they would . Sure I am they will not , nor can saie , that they that were the authours and doers herein , were of our Religion , but of theirs . The like may bee saied of other kingdomes , since the time that their Religion hath florished most . And certaine it is that none were euer in these parts of the world , since they came to their height , greater troublers of Christendome , then their Popes themselues . For in Italie vnder the names of Guelphes and Gibelines , in Cicilie , Naples , and Arragon , for titles of those kingdomes , and in Germanie and France for the translating this way and that way the Empire , they haue beene the cause of most long and bloudy warres . And to passe ouer all the most sauage partes , played by these men , ( that would seeme to haue their hands , so free from bloudshed , especiallie in Churches ) of late yeares in France in killing and murdering of Protestantes , as couragiouslie in Churches , as in any other places , where either by force , or subtlety they could surprise them : let them call to their remembrance what was done by a famous Captaine of theirs , Minerius , of late vnder pretence of a commission from Frauncis , the king of France , to the poore Christians of Merindoll , and Cabriers , and the townes thereabout , and I thinke they shall bee inforced to confesse , that they are not the men , they would seeme to bee . For in that story it appeareth , that after they had by a decree , in the high court of Prouince , for the not appearance of ten men of Merindoll , adiudged that towne , houses , and trees to be made euen with the ground , and all the inhabitants thereof , men , women , and children , to bee consumed with the fire , and that after their prelates and great men , had long laboured in vaine to put this decree in execution : that in the ende , this Minerius , being president in Prouince , handled the matter so , by false informing of the king , that he obtained a most bloudy commission from Frauncis then king of France , through the helpe of the Cardinal of Turnon , to execute that arrest . Wherein , though his commission stretched onely to Merindoll , hee behaued himselfe so , with the assistance that quicklie he got , that in short space he vtterly destroied Merindol , Cabriers , and other townes and villages , thereabouts , to the number of 22 , giuing commission to his souldiers , to spoyle , ransacke , burne , and to destroy altogither , and to kill man , woman , and childe , without al mercy , sparing none : which commission they executed , in the cruellest maner , that their filthy and bloudy hearts could deuise , rauishing both women and maidens , and putting them to all the torments , they could imagine , cutting of the paps of some , ripping open the bellies of other some , and so most tirannously murdering al they could get . At Cabriers , thirty men he caused to bee hewen in pieces , in a medow neare the towne , and there he tooke .40 . women , and caused them to be put into a barne ful of hey , and straw , and so there to be kept in with pikes , whiles they & the barne and all were burned : and there also he sent a Captaine of his Iohn de Gay , to go with a company of ruffians to the Church ; where were a great number of women & young children , & to murder them all , which he did , sparing neither young nor olde , and so one way and other , eight thousand , were slaine in that towne . And but for to much troubling of the reader , a number as tragicall stories as this , might bee set downe of their dealings against the poore seruants of God , in diuers and sundry other places , and namelie also not long after these thinges were done , in the countrey of Piedmont , and thereabout : but euen this is sufficient to make any man see , especiallie this storie beeing so famous , and done of so late yeares that your forehead must needs be growen very hard , yet to obiect such things to vs , whereof you your selues haue beene most notoriouslie guiltie . You haue tolde vs before , that wee must not seeke to blemish your Religion with the bad fruites wee finde vpon you , for your Religion condemneth them : which might iustlie haue stayed you from going about to staine our Religion , with these things , especially . For sure I am that our Religion condemneth sedition & rebellion , forbiddeth subiects to impeach their Princes safety , & dignity , either by word or deede , & detesteth al kinde of such barborous cruelty , and tiranny . Wheras it may bee iustly doubted , that howsoeuer your Religion , condemne some other grosse faults , that be common in men of your side , yet it liketh well of these , and such like kinde of dealings , because it is a common thing , for your great Prelates to be the chiefe furtherers thereof , and to haue such things , attempted vnder commission from your catholicke kings , & your Popes of Rome . And therefore , though that your rule weaken , yea fully answere this obiection of yours , against vs ( though it were granted that these things , which you obiect were true ) yet it doeth not take away ours , in this respect , made against you .

The XXXVI . Chapter .

YOu a a The answere is to your shame . make vs but a very slender answere , saying , that we were the first , & that you doe no other but that that we haue taught you . b b That may be , but sure I am , if you should deny it . I know , & stories to your shame report , that you should say vntruely . If we should saie the contrary , I know who should say the trueth : but to auoide all quarels , the best is ( following the councel of our Sauiour ) to giue you more then you demand . Let vs put the case , that we should confesse to be the first , doth it follow therefore , that your matter is good ? c c No , but it followeth , that then you may be ashamed to note that as a fault in vs , whereof you are first and more guilty . I pray doe but consider the verdict that you both giue of your selues & of vs . We are ( according to your sacred gospell & Apostolical iudgement ) no other but poore and simple infidels , & superstitious Idolaters : but contrariwise , you are Apostles , Prophets , Euangelists , the true children of God . Seeing then , that God hath shewed you so much fauour , & poured vpon you the bountifull giftes of his grace , how haue yee sought so cruellie to d d If any of our profession haue do●e so , we neither commend them , nor allow of their maner of dealing , you doe , of the like in yours . reuenge your selues against his expresse commandement . Is this the way of reformation , to shew your selues as il as we or worse ? Seeing that the matter falleth out so plainely , I pray you be not obstinate , giue place vnto the best , to reforme the rest , for to be worse then you I e e Your opinion , God be thanked , is no great preiudice vnto vs . thinke none can be found . You my masters that can make such tedious sermons , and raile at large against our Popes and Bishops , whie doe you passe ouer so lightly the faults of your f f We doe not lightly passe oue● the faultes of our ministers . ministers ? you set out gloriously the titles of Apostles , Prophets , Euangelists , and extraordinarie messengers of God for your selues : as good Godfathers ye now Christen our Popes and Bishops , calling them rauening and g g In so calling them , we ca●l but a spade a spade , a fig a fig. greedie deuouring wolues . In this ye do greatly abuse the intellection of the scriptures : for if you marke well that , that our Sauiour doeth saie , yee shall finde , that yee run farre wide of the text , and the similitude of the wolfe doeth full well appertaine vnto your ministrie . There he doeth declare the difference that is betwixt the good shepheard and the bad ( which he doeth call Mercenarium ) & the wolfe . * * John . 10. The good Shepheard is he , that doeth hazard & venture his life for his flocke : the ill Shepheard is he , that taketh the milke and the woole from the sheepe , & letteth them rome without taking any care to keepe them . h h And this we finde , i● , & hath bene ●f long the very nature and property of yours The wolues seeing them rome abroad , scattered from the flocke , doeth deuour all those that are ill kept . The good shepheard is our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles , and all the good Bishops that did florish in olde time , and all the holy Confessours and martyrs that haue liued in the golden age , when the bloud of our Sauiour Christ was yet hot boyling in their harts . The ill shepheards haue followed after , which haue not cared for their sheepe . The wolues ( which are the heretiques ) seeing this haue scattered the sheepe out of the fold of Christ , which is the catholike Church , where they had beene borne spiritually , that is to say , regenerated with the grace of the holy ghost , & the Sacrament of baptisme , to follow the sects of perdition . If al our shepheards had bene as careful to keepe their flockes as they ought to haue beene , your Congregation had neuer beene so strongly builded as it is at this day in France . And therefore you offer your Church ( if it may be so called ) great wrong , when you speake against the abuses of ours , i i Indeed because your Religion & the principal pillers thereof are plants h●t the heauenly father planted neuer , therefore you are , and shall be rooted vp by the rootes . for our sinnes haue beene and are the principall foundations of your building . And euen as the worme is nourished in the Aposteme with the ill humors , euen so you feede of our faultes , & are nourished with our sinnes , your fire burnes with our wood k k You must amend both your liues and religion , or else it will be wide with you , I can tell you . and if we woulde amend our liues , I know how soone your religion would l l The gates of hel shal neuer preuaile against ours . decay . And therfore our Pastours are not wolues , but they haue permitted the wolues to deuour their sheepe , and so they shall answere for them before the throne of the eternall Iudge , m m Your sheepherds then by your owne confession , haue bene lewde , idle , and negligent shepeherdes . who doeth aduertise them by the Prophet Ezechiel , that they shal answere for all the mischiefes that happen vnto their sheepe , manie of the which are scabbed and full of diseases : and therefore I would haue you to cause some body to choose among yours and ours those that are best , to the ende , that through this diuision , and your aide , wee may take the rest . I thinke , that if any thing condemne vs , it wil bee this cause , forasmuch as we haue continued in that doctrine which was preached vnto vs at the first , as you your selues n n Yes that we can , and say most truely too . cannot denie , if you will confesse the trueth .

The XXXVI . Chapter .

YOu would haue your reader beleeue , that we haue no further answere to your former obiection , but your example , and therefore in this chapter you bring vs in answering onely for our defence , that you were the first , and that we learned so to doe of you : whereunto first you answere , that you know who should saie the trueth if you should say the contrary ; and then supposing that our answere were true , you tel vs that our answere will not serue , because we should not haue learned , so cruelly to reuenge our selues against Gods expresse commandement of you , whom we count poore simple infidels , and superstitious idolaters . But I trust the indifferent reader may see by that which I haue writen , that this is not our only answere , and that we answering thus , if you should say the contrary , he now knoweth , that it is you and no other , that therein should speake contrary to the trueth . Indeed we confesse , that we should not learne of you , nor of any other , cruelly to seeke to reuenge our selues , for the Lord hath forbid vs to reuenge our selues , for vengeance is his , and he wil doe vengeance . Rom. 12.19 . And if any of our side , haue transgressed this rule , we commend it not in them ; neither do we incourage other to follow any such example , but yet withal we tel you , and you know it to be most true , that such may be the oppression of Gods seruants , and the tiranny of their enemies , towards them , that he may as he hath done , extraordinarily stir vp some amongst them , to reuenge their quarrels , and to deliuer them out of their enemies hands , though such extraordinary examples , are not to bee drawen into ordinary imitation . And though there bee no reason why wee should learne to doe ill of you , of whom we account so euill ; yet there is reason why you thinking so well of your selues , as you doe , should not teach vs , by your often example to doe that , which if we doe but once , you count an heinous offence in vs . You would haue the best to reforme the rest , if your request were graunted , you must amend apace , or else there will none of you be found in that degree . You are angrie with vs for speaking as wee vse to doe against your Popes , and bishops , and for that in the mean time , we giue our selues glorious titles of Apostles , Euangelists , Prophets &c , passing ouer the faults of our owne . Whereunto most truely I may answere , that so infinite and monstrous haue beene the sinnes and abhominations , of these your Popes and other prelates , for this long time , that it is impossible for vs all , euer sufficiently to paint out the filthinesse of them : and as for our passing ouer in the meane time , the faultes of our owne ( though indeede we neuer deny but that there are faultes amongst our owne , for they are men , and indeed for all your saying , we are the first censurers of our selues oftentimes for those faults ) what reason is there that you should require at our handes , that we should neuer tell you of your faults , but that we must withal lay open our owne ? When this is your fashion , we will learne to imitate you : and concerning titles which you say , we so gloriously set out our ministers withall , they are yet but titles , by Christ in his expresse word , left vnto his Church , and of them , some we confesse , were extraordinary , and but for a time , as Apostles , Prophets , and Euangelists , of whom onely we glory in this , that our doctrine is the same that they left vs in writing , & the other titles of bishops , pastors , & doctors , as fit for the true ministers of the Gospel , we take vnto vs , & therwith are we content . So that you rather haue aduaunced your Clergie with glorious and vaine titles , them we , in that of your own heads , not thinking the titles that Christ hath left vs glorious inough , you haue your Popes , Cardinals , and diuers other such strange and swelling names of pride and vanity . Yet it grieueth you , as it seemeth most , that some of vs , now and then tearme your Popes and bishoppes rauening & deuouring wolues ; some labour therfore you bestow in amplifying a similitude to proue them no wolues : but hirelings and bad shepheards , that many of them haue beene a great while , yea & that their sinnes haue bene the cause of our prospering and preuailing as we haue , you will not deny vs . It is wel that the euidence of the trueth , and the force thereof , hath preuailed thus far with you , to cause you to graunt vs thus much : I feare me if a number of your Prelates , and Popes should come to the reading of this , you should haue smal thanke of them , for yeelding thus farre . Well , then hirelings they are , and haue beene , but too much , and too long , by your owne confession , & therefore as you tell them , the iudgement of God denounced against them , Eze. 3 , & 33 , is that , that they may make their account of ; which beeing so I cannot see how their veriest enemies should wish them to be worse : yet let vs see what reason you haue to proue , that they may not bee rightly called wolues ? Your reason is , because in the phrase of the Scripture you thinke there must needs be betwixt an hireling and a woulfe , spoken of therein , the same difference that is betwixt a naughty , carelesse , and a negligent shepheard , and the woulfe that commeth in the meane time to pray of his flocke : whereupon the hireling with you , is as the sheephearde , but careles and negligent in looking to his sheepe , & the woulfe is as the heretick and false teacher , that commeth whiles the other is negligent , & driues the sheepe from the folde , & deuours them . But you know that similitudes are not to be streatched further then they are brought in , & vsed for , that notwithstanding , seeing you your selfe confesse that the hereticke is the woulfe , we shal well inough maintaine our calling of your Popes and Bishops , wolues , I warrant you . For that is the thing especially that wee stood vpon with you , and we desire nothing more than that you would come once to the sound triall of that point , by the Canonicall scriptures , whither you and they haue not beene most daungerous heretiques . Heresie we account any opinion conceiued , helde , and stubburnly defended , contrary to the sound grounds of diuinity set downe vnto vs , in the canonicall scriptures . And your Religion to stand , & consist of a great number of such , we are alwaies most ready to proue . It is not your saying , that your Religion is ancient , and receiued and taught alwaies in the Church of God , from Christ , to this day ; nor your bragging that we cannot deny it , as you doe here again in the later ende of this Chapter , and haue often heretofore ; that will serue the turne in this case ; for I haue diuerse times heretofore proued the contrarie . This is flat , euery one seeth it , you can hide it no longer , that if your Religion be so in deede , as you say , then you dare bring it vnto this touchstone of the scripture ; and it wil abide it ; otherwise that whatsoeuer you say to countenance it , with your wordes , or with the names , and titles , of ancient fathers and doctours , that in deede and trueth , it is not as you pretend . I haue meetly well already shewed the opposition and contrariety betwixt your doctrine & that , taught in the Scriptures , cap. 29. and elsewhere : and yet were it an easie matter to lead on the reader , to a number of such grosse contrarieties more , betwixt the doctrine of your Popes , and Bishops , for a long time ; and that which is taught there . For it teacheth that God worketh euen in the regenerat , both to will , & to performe , euen of his owne good pleasure . Phil. 2.13 . and you contrariwise teach in your doctrine of free will . That teacheth vs flatly , that as there is but one God , so ther is but one mediatour betwixt God & man , the man Christ Iesus , 1. Timot. 2. and you set vs vp a number of mediatours & aduocates , of saints and Angels besides him . There we are taught that no man can lay any other foundation , then that which is already laied Christ Iesus . 1. Cor. 3.11 . and your church hath laied Peter for the foundation of the church . And in this scripture we are taught , to worship the lord God & him only to serue Deut. 6. and namely the seruice of praier , beeing one of the highest and diuinest pointes of seruice that wee are to yeelde vnto him , there we are taught by commandement , promisse , and example , only to doe vnto him : and you come and teach vs to worship & to serue euen with diuine honour , and namely with this of praier , not onely saints & Angels , but also their reliques , shrines , and images . What should I say more ? your owne consciences tell you that you haue nothing in the world to escape this , & 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures , but by subtle sophistrie , fonde quiddities , and distinctions deuised of your owne heades , without all warrant and ground from thence , which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable . These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates , and the trueth taught in the scriptures , we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of , and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same , hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine , to call them wolues , them in respect of their negligence onely heretiques . And for this same cause , seeing all yours are thus infected , you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them , with some of the best of ours , to reforme things amisse in both . For there is no hope of any good reformation at all , where any such as yours , haue any thing to doe therein . And seeing it is and hath beene so common a thing with vs ( as you cannot be ignorant , if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you ) to denie , that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first , yea seeing you all know , that we count your synagogue Antichristian , for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles , taught first vnto the Romans , I wonder with what face or forehead , you could write as you do in the conclusion of this Chapter , that we our selues cannot denie , if we will confesse the trueth , but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you . And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life , and negligent sheepherds , & bad sheepe , doeth your kingdome decay ( as you would insinuate ) but especially for this also , that in the points we striue with you about , you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion , first taught by Christ and his Apostles , and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church & others . The only way therefore for you is , to preuent an vtter & vniuersall subuersion and confusion , first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religion & doctrine , to the true ancient & Catholique faith taught in the scriptures , and then to amend your maners according to the direction of the same .

The XXXVII . Chapter .

ALL our ancient doctours , a a This is but an arrogant false brag , as we are able to proue , come to particulars when you will . as well of the Greeke , as of the Latine church since the Apostles time , and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world , which were in those daies , b b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God : & they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly , & of such things as they saw , he had made possible vnto them ; which things are neglected in the vowes , that I feare you most mean . haue made their promises and vowes vnto God , euen as we doe now , and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe , with the selfesame exorcismes , adiurations and annoyntings , that we doe vse in our Catholique church , which you call Papisticall : and to proue this true , we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses , if it please you to reade the c c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places , as is euident in the answer to this Chapter . places that we will quote . Tertullian ( who liued verie neere the Apostles time ) doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled , De resurrectione carnis , of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme , and of the renouncing the Deuill & all his pompe . In his booke de coronâ militis , he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water , in the name of the father , the sonne , and the holy ghost . S. Cyprian the Martyr , who was aboue . 1300. yeares agone , doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles , Epist. 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised . Origen in his twelfth Homilie , and in diuerse other places of his workes , doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme , & of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened . S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians , he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes . Reade I praie , if it be your pleasure , S. Aug. in Psal. 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis & x . lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem , tract. 33. in Canonicam Ioannis , tract. 3. & tractat . 6. Et de eccle. dogmat . cap. 31. De Simbolo , lib. 1. cap. 7. & lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris . Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto , cap. 15. & 27. Arnobius in Psalm . 75. All these doctours , which were aboue a thousand yeares agone , if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted , you shall finde , that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse , and that you doe so mislike . And as for confession , before the receiuing of the Sacrament , our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs , that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes . Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis . Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm , and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril . libro 12. in Iohannem , Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast. Cap. 10. All these doctours , according to the Scriptures , in these places doe confirme auriculer confession . And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs with their praiers , read Origen , in his third Homilie vpon the Canticles , and in his 2. book vpon Iob , & his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom , in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians , the fourth Chapter , and S. Augustine , in his twentie booke against Faustus , the one and twenty Chapter , and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius . All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes . And for praying for the dead , reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia , and in his booke De corona militis , and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem , and in the first booke of his Epistles : and Origen in Hieremiam . Homil. 12. Item in Epist. ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome , in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians , and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen . against the Manichees , cap. 20. & in the Encheridion ad Laurent . cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda . All these doctours , whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares , doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue , the which they left in writtng by the ordinance of God , to confute such heretiques as you are .

The XXXVII . Chapter .

AT last it seemeth by your paines taken in this Chapter , you be thought your selfe , that forasmuch as hitherto onelie in bare and naked wordes , you had vaunted and bragged your Religion to be the ancient Religion : that it was needefull for you euen for shame before you made a full end of your booke , to yeeld vs some reasons and grounds , or at least some shew & colour , of your so lewd and bold boasting . And therefore here now at last , to that ende you haue mustered the bare names of a few ancient fathers , very prouidently leauing your Readers to the examining of your quotations , amongst whom not one of an hundreth you knew , either for lacke of skill or will , leasure or bookes , could and would turne to the places in the authours themselues . You thought ( belike ) your credit to bee such , that they must needes beleeue that you cite them truely and faithfully : and that because you so roundly haue huddled them togither , that therefore also out of all question they spake and wrotefully for you , in the points you alleadge them for . What smal cause there is either for you to looke thus to bee trusted , or for any to yeelde you such credit herein , wee shall see anone , when wee come to the examining of your quotations . In the meane time , what ment you by this , thus onely when all commeth to al , to countenance these 4 , points : your Ceremonies in baptisme , confession before the sacrament , praiers to the Saints departed , and praier for the dead ? Are these the greatest matters of your religion in question ? Or doeth it especially depend vpon these 4 , and the countenancing of these ? Or was your prouision ready for no more , that but once in all your booke , you seeming to set downe the authorities whereupon you ground your religion , you would take the paines to go no further then to these 4 , points ? Indeed in your next Chapter you excuse your selfe and say , that you would haue gone likewise on to confirme the rest , but for being tedious to your reader . Truely he is much beholden to you , for your discreet kindnes towards him , that haue not spared to be tedious vnto him in al the rest of your book , in troubling of him with such a number of proud brags , of the antiquity and catholikenes of al your religion ( as you haue ) and with many needles and friuolous long discourses besides , and now when you came to the point indeed , which of all other was most materiall , and wherein both for his satisfaction and your owne credit , it stood you vpon most to enlarge your selfe , then thus to shift him of , with as good as nothing , bearing him yet in hand , that but for his ease , you both could and would haue saied inough . This is a common tricke amongst you , thus to cozen and abuse your simple readers , to weary them with things needles , and then to slip ouer with some such shift as this , matters most needful . Wel concerning that which either you haue saied here for these 4 , points , or that which after you pretend , if you had list you could haue easily saied for the rest ; this I would haue the reader diligently to note and marke , that but for two places vainely alleaged to proue your confession , that you neither haue alleaged any testimony of scripture at all for the proofe of these , nor yet that you so much as say after you could or would for the rest . Which argueth that euen in your owne conscience , the best ground and countenance that your popish religion hath , either in these points , or in the rest , is but from earth , and not from heauen , from men , and not from the holy ghost . For if you had beene able with any good colour to haue countenanced either these points , or any of the rest , out of Gods owne booke and writen word , the reader may think that neither your zeale to your religion , nor yet your boasting spirit , which hitherto hath shewed it selfe ouerflowing in you , either would or could haue suffered you , thus much to the preiudice your whole cause , cleane to haue forgotten , so much as once to go about it . But to say the trueth , seeing it is confessed by your betters , not onely that this , but the most of all the rest of the points of your Religion , which we striue with you for , are grounded but vpon tradition ( as I haue shewed out of Soto against Brentius , Canisius fift Chapter of his Catechisme , and Lyndans 100. Chapter of the fifth booke of his panoply before ) you are the honester man , and the more a great deale to be liked , for your thus secretly confessing the same with them . Now yet by this , the Reader may plainely vnderstand , what hath indeede beene the reason , why in all your booke hitherto you haue laboured so much as you haue , to grace and countenance tradition and the exposition of the doctours , and withall haue spent so much time , in diswading the appealing to the Scriptures , for the ending of the controuersies betwixt vs . You were wise enough ( it seemeth ) to see where your strength lay , and from whence would rise your bane , and therefore who can blame you for leaning , as you doe , altogither to the one , and shunning the other ? But then in reason yet you should call your Religion no more diuinity , but humanity , no more Theologie but patrologie : and plainely confesse indeede from whence you haue all your figge leaues , rags and clouts , to couer your shame and nakednes . Truely these you haue ( whatsoeuer in this respect you pretend ) not from the right and sound Apostolique tradition ( which alwaies was either expressed in Scripture , or at least consonant vnto it ) nor from the ancient holy fathers rightly vnderstood , and when they taught ( as it was of themselues acknowledged to be their duties ) with sound warrant from the scriptures ( as I haue sundry times shewed already ) but onely from forged , or corrupt tradition , and from the fathers either misunderstood , or erring as men . So that vnwriten verities or rather forgeries , sentences of fathers mistaken , or their verie errours whereof they would haue beene ashamed , if they had had the meanes to helpe them to see them that you haue ; are the groundes , pillers , and bewties of your church and Religion . And this we are alwaies ready to iustifie against you before the whole world , by sound and inuincible proofe out of the vn doubted word of God ( interpreted according to the same rules of interpreting it , that the holy and ancient fathers themselues haue followed , in confuting all heretiques in their times by , and which they haue likewise commended to others alwaies to be obserued ) and out of the vndoubted writings of the ancientest and best fathers them selues . Wee are therefore verie well content to liue and die in that Church and Religion , which we are sure we are able thus to iustifie , and we enuy not you , but rather heartely lament and pittie you , that yours hath no better grounde then it hath .

But to let these thinges passe , and to proceede to the scanning and examining of that which you haue set downe in this Chapter ; you beginne with an arrogant and false bragge , that all ancient doctours , Greeke and Latin since the Apostles times , and all the Christians of the foure quarters of the world , that were in those daies , made their promises and vowes &c. as you doe now . You are wonderfull generall ( Master Albine ) and your words are very confident and swelling ; shal we thinke that you are a man of that learning and reading , that you speake all this vpon your owne knowledge ? why then hauing such a cloud of witnesses , & such an army royall , alleage you so few of them ? nine or ten be the most whose names you haue brought vs in al this Chapter , and these you haue brought forth vpon the stage dumbe , or tongue-tied , if we wil here them speake , we must take the paines to attend vpon them , by your direction , at an other time , and surely in other places then you haue pointed vs , we must heare a good sort of these speake for you , or else we shal neuer finde them willing , to yeelde either you or your cause , any one word good or bad . As for vowes and promises , which you make to God , vnlesse thereby you meane onely such vowes and promises , as both you and we make in our baptisme , to renounce the Diuell and al his works &c. for then you haue not so much as named vs one father , Greeke or Latin , nor yet any one Christian of any of the foure quarters of the world , you speake of . And indeede you haue amongst you , such rash , foolish , vndiscreete , and superstitious vowes and promises a number , for the which you could not , nor cannot truely alleadge any ancient and holy father or Christian indeede , thereinto giue you any countenance . Such bee you vow of single and chast life , vniuersally amongst you tyed to holy orders , your vowes and promises to God , some of you alwaies , & some for a time , to absteine with opinion of holines and merit , from flesh and whitmeate , your vowes of pilgrimage , to commit idolatry at this ! Saints shrine & picture , or at that , and a number of like stampe ; of which kinde of vows & promises , if you meane , I say first , your glory in them is your shame , for these are but plaine wil worships , condemned by Christ Mat. 15. and by Paul Coloss. 2. & the very bronds & marks of such , as according to S. Pauls prophesie , in the later daies should depart from the faith , & giue heede vnto spirits of errour and doctrine of Deuils . 1. Tim. 4. And further I say such vowes were better neuer made , than made , & being made , they are of the nature , & dangerous consequence , that the best way were first to repent of the folly and rashnes in making of them , & then rather quite to giue them ouer , than with such superstition and impiety to seeke to keepe them , as is vsed & breaks forth thereby shamefully amongst you . For it is plentifully proued , both out of scriptures and out of Ambrose in the second canon of the eighth councel of Toledo , that oathes that cannot be performed without sinne are vnlawfull & not to binde . And you cannot be ignorant , that Gratian , causa 22 , quest. 4 , produceth many testimonies out of the fathers to the same end , and the namely out of Isidor there , he hath noted & set downe this , for a good rule in such cases as these of yours be . In malis promissis rescinde fidem , in turpi voto , muta decretum , quod incautè vouisti ne facias , impia est promissio quae scelere adimpletur , that is , in euill promisses performe them not , in a filthie vow change thy purpose , the which rashly thou hast vowed doe not , it is an vngodly promise which is fulfilled with sin . And rather then men that haue vowed & promised a single life , through the force of inward concupiscence , should burne and fal either to fornication , adultery , or any other vncleannes or filthines of the flesh ( with were as heauen & earth & all the world knowes common fruits of your priestly vow of single life ) the ancient Doctours that you brag of here so much , would haue them to marry and to repent of their rash vow : as it is euident in Cyril in his third & 16. bookes vpon Leuiticus , in Cyprian li. 1. Epist. 11. in Epiphanius himselfe contra apostolicos l. 2. and in August . de bono coniugali : & de sanctâ virginitate , cap. 34.

But by the vowes and promises that you speake of , seeing you cite no fathers for any other , I will take it that you meant onelie those that you vse to make to God in Baptisme . Now then , yet therein vnderstand , you striue without an aduersary . For we in our baptisme doe as solemnly make those vowes and promises to God , to renounce the Deuill , the world & the flesh withall their fruits , to beleeue in God and serue him all the daies of our life , as euer any of you did , or doe . But you say further , that al these holy Doctours & Christians you spake of , at their baptisme did vse those very ceremonies that you doe , with the selfesame exorcismes , adiurations and annoyntings , which you doe vse in your Catholique church , which we call papisticall ; for the proofe of the trueth whereof , you name vs certaine places out of Tertullian , Cyprian , Origen , Chrysostome , Augustine , Basil , and Arnobius : what are these all the ancient doctours and Christians , since the Apostles time that you speake of ? Though it were graunted you , that these seuen in these places , were for your ceremonies which you vse in baptisme , yet this were farre from all that you spake of before . Thus ( to beginne withall ) euery bodie may see , that you are a far mightyer man in bragging , them you dare so m●●h as to make shew you are , in prouing all you say . But to passe by this fault , herein you haue committed a second fault worse then this first . For whereas you alleadge these fathers here , to countenan e your whole pompe of ceremonies now vsed by you in Baptisme , there is not ( you know well enough , or else you are not so cunning in these places , as you would haue men thinke you are ) the halfe of your ceremonies & fashions , so much as barely mentioned by them , in these places . Exorcisme , abrenuntiation , crossing , thrise dipping , and anointing , are all that I can finde any of these in any of these places to haue mentioned ; but that they vsed the selfesame exorcismes , adiurations and anointings that you now vse ( as you say ) I finde not . Your Chrisme that you anoint withall , must haue , as you hold , balsom in it : and in them I finde onely mention of oyle and none of any balsom , & your formes of exorcising and adiuring , set downe in your seruice bookes , are not found in any of these places , nay it is well enough knowen they are of younger yeares by a faire deale . But what are these few ceremonies ( the names whereof and vse whereof , in some sort they had common with you ) to al the solemnity of ceremonies that you vse now ? To trauell no further for the matter , let vs but take a view of your rites and ceremonies in this case , as they are set downe in your late Catechisme , by the decree of the councell of Trent , and Pius the fift Bishop of Rome , writen and published for the instruction of your parish Priests , what and how to teach their people : and we shall finde that these places , doe not mention the one halfe of them , by farre . There first , they are deuided in three rankes or sortes , the first is of them that you by authority of that councell , vnder paine of being anathematized , must vse before the partie to be baptised come to the font : the second is of such as be vsed in the baptizing of him , and the third is of such as be vsed after . Of the first stampe be these : consecrating of the water , with the oile of misticall vnction , of Easter day and Whitsonday , that shall serue for the whole yeare after , as there shal be occasion to vse it , the staying of the party without the Church dore , vntill he either by himselfe or his Godfather for him , promise the forsaking of the seruice of Sathan , and his yeelding to enter into Gods seruice and family , and being asked what he would haue , answere be giuen , that he would haue baptisme : which being knowen , them it is saied further , that he is to be instructed in the Cathecisme , and is to answere it by himselfe , or his godfather , which done , then in religious words and praiers , exorcisme or adiuration to expell the deuil , and to weaken and ouerthrow his power in him , must be vsed , a little salt must be put into his mouth , the signe of the Crosse is to be made vpon his forehead , eies , brest , shoulders , and eares , and lastly with the priests spettle , his nostrels and eares , must be anointed . Now these things thus finished , then he is admitted or brought to the font , where next follow the rites of the second order , which there are thus set downe , then is he thrise asked whither he doe abre●ounce the deuill &c. And thrise he or his godfather make answere abrenuntio , I doe abrenounce ; and then likewise he is asked , whither he doe beleeue the twelue articles of the Christian faith , whereunto answere is made , credo , I beleeue ; and lastly , whither he will be baptized is demaunded , wherunto answere being made , volo , I will : he is baptized in the water in the font , in the name of the father , the sonne and holy Ghost , either being dipt into the water , or by hauing water poured or sprinkled vpon him , according to the maner and fashion of the Church in that countrey , where the party is baptized . Where is also further shewed , that it was the minde of that holy councel , that at the most there should be but one godfather , and one godmother , thus to answere and vndertake for the baptized , both because the order of discipline and instruction thorough a multitude of masters might be troubled , and also because it was meet so to prouide , least otherwise betwixt too many , such spirituall affinities should grow , as might hinder mariadge amongst men , too much . For as the writer of that booke further saieth , most wisely by the Church it was decreed , that there should grow such affinity not onely betwixt the baptized and baptizer , but also betweene the baptized and the sureties , and the baptized his true parents , that thenceforth none of them might marry togither . That also may not be forgotten , that there also it is shewed , that the naturall parentes of the party to bee baptized , may not so promise & answere for him , that so that rather it we● appeare , how farre this spirituall education differs from the carnall . Belike the authour of this Catechisme , & the councell & Pope that set him a worke , & commanded the publishing of his booke , had quite forgotten , that S. Paul saieth to naturall parents , yee fathers bring vp your children in instruction & information of the Lord Ephes. 6. ver. 4. or else they were at a flat point , they cared not whatsoeuer hee had taught . Now your Ceremonies of the lust sort ( as he setteth them out ) are these , baptisme ministred & finished , the baptizeds crowne of the head is to be annointed with the holy chrisme , a white garment , or at least , a white sudariolum , that is handkerchiefe or cloth to wipe away sweat withall , is to be giuen him , a burning waxe candle is to be put into his hand , & lastly , his name must be giuen him . Now , I pray you , what are the 5. things aforesaied , mentioned in these places , to such a number as these ? And yet the Tridentine councel , whose mind this authour plainly set out , thought al these so necessary can. 13. de Sacramentis , that it pronounceth him accursed , that shall contemne , omit , or take vpon him to alter any of these . And the more is ( as it is euident by your own doctors , Durand , Dorbel , Herolt & others ) you obserue not these rites & ceremonies , with the opinion that ecclesiasticall constitutions of such matters , ought only to be obserued withal , that is , in h●lding stilfast the doctrine of Christian liberty in your consciences , & obseruing them for decency , comlines & edification , without opinion of holines , necessity & merit therin , for the better maintenance of order & peace in the church , but most grosly , superstitiously , & idolatrously haue you taught men to impute to a number of them , as namely to your exorcism , annointing , & crossing such force & efficacy , as that not only you haue made them to encroch far vpon the vse & effect of baptism it self , but also you haue , & do , attribute so great , & so many spiritual graces & effects to them , that litle or nothing is left , as speciall to baptisme . Nay who is so simple , but that he seeth , that these & such other rites & ceremonies amongst you ( though it be neuer so euident that they be but of humane deuise & inuention ) are more carefully vrged & obserued , than that very order that expreslie it set downe in the scriptures themselues , about & concerning the administration of the sacraments : if it were not thus , you durst not so contrary to the doctrine & order of S. Paul 1. cor. 14. appoint & vse rather ( as you do ) an vnknown tongue in the ministring of them , then a language that the people might vnderstand & be edified by , & so say amen with understanding to your praiers & thanksgiuing . Nether durst you thus to ad to the lords ordinances , & accurse them that omit any of your additions , in the mean time , take vpon you quite contrary to the words of Christ , drink ye al of this , to bereaue the common people of the cup , to the sacrament of Christs body & bloud , withall by your new found tearme and doctrine of concomitance , peruerting quite the vse & end of the sacrament , in making it a sacrament of the life & glory of Christ , whereas by his ordinance it is a sacrament of his death and abasement for our redemption vpon the Crosse . In taking therfore bread a part , & calling it his body broken ; & afterwards wine , and tearming it his bloud shed for many to the remission of their sins , it was his purpose that by the vse of this sacrament , vntill his comming againe , his Church should set forth his death and passion , and so the separation of his body & bloud , the one from the other : & you by this your deuise , inuented for the maintenance of your Helena transubstantiation , make it to serue to a quite contrary end , namely , to teach the coniunction stil of his body and bloud together , and so to be a sacrament in effect to deny his death & passion . Of you therfore it may again most iustly be said , that once Christ said of your right forefathers , the Scribes and Pharisees in his time , you are they y strein a gnat and swalow a camel , and that for your owne traditions make no reckoning of the commandements of God . Mat. 15. & 29. & Mar. 7. And certaine it is , that whiles you and others ( of whom you haue learned al these ceremonies of yours ) haue taken vpon you , thus to adde vnto Christs ordinance of baptisme , such a number of needles ceremonies , especially vrging them and vsing them as you doe , al these wel● therupon directly follow , you seeke to make the day light of the new Testament , euen as darke as the night of the old , by your new found figures and types , you strongly lead men to think that the simplicity of Christs institution of this sacrament was not decent and sufficiently ful of maiesty , for the dignity of such a sacrament , you by the multitude and pompe of your solemne ceremonies , darken and obscure these things that are essential & necessary thereunto indeed , you take the effects & inward graces , apperteining to the right vse of baptism , from it , & communicate them without , other commandement or promise from God , to things but of mens inuention : & lastly , forcibly you thereby occasion men to think , that the integrity , & fulnes of this sacrament dependeth vpon these . Howsoeuer therfore you would seeme , from sundry places in Aug. here quoted by you , to fetch credit for them , yet these things being true which I haue saied , as they are , & they well considered , seeing in Augustines time , it is certaine , that neither there were so many , nor those that were , so superstitiouslie were then vrged or vsed , we may be sure that hee would , if he were now aliue to see and vnderstand all these thinges , most vehemently write and speake against you therein . For speaking but of the rites and ceremonies , and the maner of vsing of them that were in his time , hee greatly shewed his dislike then , both of the multitude and maner of pressing them vpon men : saying , Hoc nimis doleo &c. I cannot but extreamly sorrow for this , that many things , which most holesomly are commaunded in the diuine books , are lesse cared for , and all things are full of so many presumptions , Epi. 119. And further he addeth in the same Epistle , touching the same , & quamuis ista contra fidem non sint &c. and though these things be not against faith , yet wheras the mercy of god would haue religion free , burdened with most few , and most manifest sacraments to be obserued , these with seruile burdens to presse it , that more tollerable is the state of the Iewes , who although they knowe not the time of their liberty , yet they are subiect to the burdens of the law , and not to humane presumptions , and therefore his opinion in the ende is flat of all such , that assoone as may bee , without all doubt , they be to be cut off , in the same Epistle also . Yea Pope Stephanus , as he is cited of Gratian , dist . 63. Quia sancta , speaking of humane orders aboue the election of Popes , saieth plainely , that if any of his predecessours did some things , which then might be faultles , and after they were turned into errour and superstition ( which is the cause of these your ceremonies which we mislike in you most flatly ) sine tarditate antiquâ , & cum magnâ authoritate destruantur a poste●s , that is , without any slacknes and with great authority let them , of them that come after be destroied : which assertion of his , he doeth ground vpon the example of good Ezechias , in breaking the brasen serpent which Moses had made &c. And whereas you , vnder your Tridentine curse , would binde all churches to the strict obseruing of all these your solemne ceremonies : you know , or at least should , that that is contrary to the ancient doctrine of Christian liberty in such things , and to the practise and experience of the primitiue Church . Annicet and Polycarp , the East Church , and the West ( you know ) a long time freely differed about the time of the obseruation of Easter , and yet pacem ( saieth Irenaeus ) in vniuersâ ecclesiâ &c. that is , both parts throughout the whole church , kept and maintained christian peace , Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 23. and so likewise there hee shewes , that there had beene a long time great difference , about the fast before Easter , both for the time of the continuance and otherwise , & yet that thereby rather in his opinion , the vnity of faith was commended then hindred . And of Gregories answere to Leander , touching the dipping of the baptized once or thrise ( the answere being as it was & is reported by your owne Gratian , de consecr. dist. 4. that howsoeuer the party was once or thrise dipped , it was to be counted baptised , you might learne that there is no such necessity as you imagine , to haue generally throughout the whole church of Christ , one precise forme of rites & ceremonies to be kept , that touch lesse the substantial parts of the sacrament , then this did . That Gregory could say ( to fortifie that answere of his ) in vnâ fide nihil officit sanctae ecclesiae consuetudo diuersa , that is , the diuersity of custome or fashion doeth not hurt the church , continuing in one faith . And our Cronicles doe plainely testify , that neither Eleutherius , bishop of Rome , about the yeare 180. ( though king Lucius here sent vnto him for the Roman lawes to frame his people by ) would binde him thereunto , nor yet the foresaied Gregory answering Augustine the Monks question , would tie him then , for the ordering of the church here , to the Ceremonies and customes of Rome . But the first sent Lucius , for his direction , to the lawes of God , being without exception , and not to the Roman laws , which might ( he confesseth ) be reproued , and the other in his answere to Augustines third demaund , how it came to passe that the faith being but one , the ceremonies and customs were so diuers , as that there was one maner of masse at Rome , & an other in France , wils him without respect of place , out of many churches , to chuse the best orders . And who so will reade Socrates 5. booke and the 18.19.20.21 & 22. Chapters of the same , he shall there finde not onely in a number of things diuerse fashions , rites and ceremonies , noted by him to haue bene in the churches of Christ ( insomuch that in the 21. Chapter not onely he writeth , that altogither truely and in al obseruances of godly praiers , two churches could not be found , that did fully agree amongst themselues ) but also , that this notwithstanding , the vnity of faith , & christian peace was preserued & maintained amongst them . The like may be seene in Zozomens 7. booke & 29. Chapter . Your owne Tridentine Catechiser of your parish Priests could see ( as I noted before ) that touching dipping the party to be baptized in water , pouring it vpon him , or sprinkling him with it ( so that euery one follow therein that order , that hee seeth in vse in the Church wherein hee is ) it is not materiall which way be vsed , for which of them soeuer be vsed , so ( saieth he ) this sacrament may rightly be ministred . So much the stranger is it , that both you here and he there , & your whole Tridentine councel , should so peremtorily seeke to bind all churches and persons , to the strict keeping and obseruing of all your foresaied rites and Ceremonies , in the ad ministring of the same .

Further concerning this point , I must tell you , that for your pleasure I hauing turned to these places , which you quote for this purpose , as I finde , by comparing of yours with them , that they mention , you haue many that they speake neuer a word of in these places ( as namely your consecrating of your water and Chrisme so long before , your dealing with the party at the church dore , your putting of salt into his mouth , your dressing his nostrels and eares withspettle , and your giuing him a waxe candle burning into his hand ) so thereby and by view of some other places in them , I plainely see , that you haue now giuen ouer the vse of some , which then were vsed , vpon the like ground that the rest were , which you would seeme to haue from them . For first Tertullian in his booke de coronâ militis ( which is the second place you quote ) as there he mentions thrise dipping , renouncing of the Deuill , his pompe and Angels , which you would seeme to allow and vse with him , so he saieth , that being taken from out of the water , we tast before hand the temper of milke and honie , and from the time of our baptisme , for a weeke , we absteine from daily washing , and all these doeth he ground a like , saying Harum & aliarum disciplinarum &c. that is , of these disciplines , if thou requirest the law of the scripture , thou shalt finde none , tradition shall be pretended to be the authour , custome the confirmer , and faith the obseruer ; & yet you haue left these two last long ago , for any thing , that I can learne . And Augustine , an other of your authours in this case , in three of the places named by you mentions exufflation which you haue giuen ouer , as he doeth some other , that you retaine . And the same authour vpon the 65. Psalme shewes , that in their exorcisme they vsed fire , because it is writen in the Psalm , passing through fire and water thou shalt come to a refreshing : and in his 4. booke ad cathecumenos , de Symbolo , lib. 4. cap. 1. he saieth , that before baptisme , was vsed beside the Catechisme , exorcisme , praier and canticles : in sufflation , sackcloth , bowing of the neck & humility of the feet . And Hierom vpon the 55. of Esay , and against the Luciferians shewes further , that then was vsed the tasting of wine and hony . Wherefore if the doctours and fathers , mentioning of some of your ceremonies , binde you to thinke the vse thereof lawfull and necessarie still , why should not their authoritie bee of as great force for these , which you see , they ground aswell as they doe the other ? And if their mentioning and thus grounding of these notwithstanding , you will be at liberty to leaue these , why may not we aswell be at our libertie to leaue off some of the other , that we finde most needles , and most to haue beene abused by you , to obscure and darken the simple institution of this sacrament ? Wil you follow the fathers as farre as you list , and leaue them when you list , and may no body but you doe so ? Moreouer in looking ( vpon this occasion ) into the monuments of antiquity , and the writings of the ancient fathers , I must needes aduertise thee ( Christian reader ) that I finde great variety , in the enumeration of ceremonies about this sacrament in them , and likewise great oddes betwixt the opinion and conceite , that some of the fathers shewe they had of them , from that that others , of as good credit as they , had : whereby it is euident , not only that they were not vsed alike al in euery place , but in some places and times more , and in some lesse : but also that some vsed them to one ende , and some to another . So that no certaine rule either for the ceremonies themselues , or for the maner or ende of the vse of them , can be deduced from thence . Whereupon it must needes follow , that for any thing writen by the ancient fathers hereof ( so that the essentiall parts and things belonging hereunto , which haue expresse warrant from the institution thereof , be obserued first , and then next according to the practise and example of the Apostles , and the times next after them , necessary instruction and explanation to and of the right vse thereof , with conuenient praiers and thankesgiuing , meete to be vsed in such an action bee vsed , and that also in due time and place , by , to & before fit persons ) any Church of Christ in any kingdome by the prouinciall authority that it hath , may freely reiect so many of the other rites & ceremonies as it shall thinke good , and likewise reteine so many of them , as she findeth may fitly bee reteyned for order and comelinesse , without placing any opinion of necessity , holinesse or of merit in them . And therefore , forasmuch as our Churches carefully haue taken this course in these three points , and follow the same in trueth , there is nothing , that these fathers that you haue named , consent vpon , about the administring of this sacrament , but we fully doe obserue the same . And here in England especially what fault can you find ? Of the 5. things your fathers mention we reteine & vse , though not with any superstitious intention ( as you do ) 2 of them : the rest we haue cut of according both to S. August . aduise , & your pope Stephanus iudgement before noted , because the multitude before was too great for the time of the Gospel , & they were growen into grosse abuse amongst you . No essential or necessary thing to bee done is omitted with vs , and wee haue besides fully inough , for the time of the new Testament wherin we liue , in which time it is more likely in such ceremonies . rites and fashions for vs to erre , rather in retaining too many , then in abolishing too many .

But because neither you shal say , nor your reader thinke , y these fathers , whose names you bring vs , to countenance al your ceremonies , which you vse about baptisme , are so ful & fast of your side therin , as you pretend : I wil vouchsafe so much further paines , as particulerly to examine al your quotations out of them . The first man you name is Tertullian , and in him you send vs to two places ; for your anointing and abrenuntiation , to his booke de resurrectione carnis : and for thrise dipping , to his booke de coronâ militis . Wherin it seemeth a little you mistooke your notes : for there is no mention of abrenuntiation that I can finde in the former place , in the later indeede there is : but you quote the former for it & not the later at all . Whereby any man may see , you tooke your quotations vpon trust , and neuer tooke the paines to turne to the places in the authours themselues , and that so it came to passe , that that which you should haue fathered vpon the later place ( through ignorance ) you haue attributed to the former . Anointing , I find mentioned in the former place ( I grant ) but neither the matter nor form of your anointing , can I either find ther or in any other place , quoted by you for it . And in the other , I confesse he mentioneth thrise dipping , but to what purpose is that , to iustifie your ceremonies or maner of baptizing , seeing ( as I haue noted before , out of your Tridentine cathechism ) in this point you are so indifferent , whither it be ministred by dipping , powring , or sprinkling , & neuer once there prescribe , this fashion of thrise dipping as necessary ? Your second authour is Cyprian , who ( you say ) in the second volume of his Epistles , Epist. the twelfth doeth write , that the holy Chrisme was giuen vnto children that were baptized . Wherein your note gatherer abused you . For doubtlesse in that Epistle there is not one worde , either of Chrisme or anie other Ceremonies about baptisme . Indeed in the 12 , Epistle of his first book of Epistles , he speakes of anointing the baptized with oile , but holy chrisme he calleth it not . But to speake the trueth , both Tertullian and he , haue not onely in their workes sundry times mentioned Chrisme and anointing of the baptized ; but they went too farre both in vrging the necessity thereof , and in attributing vnto it such diuine grace as they did : insomuch , that it is not without cause of the learned thought , that therin they were both the schollers of Montanus . But certaine it is , of whomsoeuer they learned thus to vrge this ceremony , to the obscuring & preiudicing of the vse and effects of baptisme , as too grossely they did , in tying rather the gift of the holy Ghost to sanctifie and regenerate to it , then to baptisme , they neuer learned it other of Christ , nor of any sound Christian , nor may any Christian more think himselfe bound to vrge it , and vse it as they did , because they did so , then he is bound to be a Montanist , because Tertullian was so , or to holde rebaptization of them , that before were baptized of heretiques , because Cyprian did so . Your nexte man is Origen , to whose 12. Homilie , without any further addition , and to diuerse other places of his workes ( without naming vnto vs any of these places ) you send vs , for abrenuntiation and the signe of the Crosse to bee made in the baptised his forehead , wherin it was your hap , to shew as great negligence and ignorance as might bee . For Origen wrote many times 12. Homilies ( as it is to be seene in his works ) whereas it should seeme by your kind of quoting of him , that you thought he had done so but once , and yet in none of these 12. Homilies that he wrote , finde I these two ceremonies mentioned , and as for the diuerse other places in his works , that you speake of , when you shall vouchsafe to name them , your answere will bee as easily made . Next is Chrysostome , of whom you alleage two places , his 12. Homily vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians , cap. 4. and his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians , and both these onely for renuntiation . In the first whereof , there is mention of the signe of the Crosse made in the forehead , but not expressely in Baptisme , and in the other there is mention of renuntiation indeede , but so there is not at al in the former : wherby againe one may see , how you neuer turned to these places and read them your selfe : and besides it is euident , that either through ignorance or negligence , or both , you father that vpon your former noted place , which you should attribute to the later : as here , that vpon Origen , which you should haue left to Chrysostom , and so shew your errour in both . But what were all this ( if you had not beene at all thus ouerseene ) against vs , or for you more , then for vs ; seeing both these ceremonies or rites , are reteyned and vsed amongst vs , in farre better maner then with you . Now followeth Augustine , out of whom you quote vs , in Psalm . 31. Aug. lib. 15. contra Iulianum Pelagianum . lib. 1. cap. 2. Item de nuptiis & concupiscentiâ . lib. 1. Cap. 20. In Iohannem tract . 33. In Canonicam Iohannis , tract. 3. & tra . 6. & de Ecclesiast. dogmatibus Cap. 31. De Symbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. & lib. 2. Cap. 11. & libro de his qui initiantur sacris , that is , eleuen places in all , wherein yet you haue more grossely shamed your selfe , then in the former . For first of all in these eleuen places , there are but three , wherein I finde any mention of any of your ceremonies , and that is , in his first booke and second Chapter against Iulian , in his first booke and twentieth Chapter de nuptiis & concupiscentiâ , and in his thirty one Chapter de Ecclesiasticis dogmatibus : and lay all these three togither , and there are mentioned onely three , that is , exorcisme , exufflation and abrenuntiation , whereof we vse one aswell as you , namely abrenuntiation , and as for the other two , thereof you your selues haue but the first , and therefore why may not we aswell , giue ouer both the other , as you haue done the first of them . Secondly , you send vs indefinitely to his fifteene booke ( as you did before to Origens twelfth homily ) not telling vs what 15. booke you meane , thinking ( belike ) that he had neuer wrote but once 15. books of one title , wheras euery one , that is acquainted with his works , know the contrary . If you say you meant his 15 booke against Iulian , then therein you shew as much ignorance : for against him , he wrote but 6. Thirdly , you father vpon Aug. two books de symbolo , & one de his qui initiantur sacris , whereas indeed in al Augustines tomes , there are no books that simply & barely beare those titles , to be found . He wrote one book de fide & symbolo : & 4 de symbolo ad cathecumenos : but in no 7 nor 11 Chapters of any of these , is there any thing for your purpose , but none at al he hath writen , that in title commeth any thing neare the other , you father vpon him . But I imagine , that if your eie-sight , or memory , had not failed you , you should and would haue quoted these not in his name , but in Ambroses . But yet then you took your mark amisse also . For he hath no bookes neither , that simply cary these titles . Indeed he hath writen fiue de fide ad Gratianum , and one de fide orthodoxâ , contra Arrianos , and a booke he hath writen , de his qui initiantur mysteriis , and fiue de sacramentis , but in no seuenth nor eleuenth Chapters of any of his bookes de fide or symbolo , hath he any thing to serue your turne . Neuer man therefore , was so abused as you ( Master Albine ) were ( I thinke ) in taking so few quotations of credit . I would therefore henceforth aduise you , vnlesse you be euen resolued vtterly to leese your credit , trust no more thus either other mens eies or fingers . Well , Basil and Arnobius are yet behinde , let vs see if you hit any rightlier of your places out of them : you cite Basils 15 and 75 Chapters de Spiritu Sancto , and Arnobius vpon the 27 Psalme : Neither of which you haue rightly quoted . For there are but 30 Chapters in al Basils booke de Spiritu Sancto ( as Erasmus hath translated him , & caused him to bee published ) and Arnobius vpon the twenty seuen Psalme , hath not at all mentioned any ceremony about baptisme , Basil in his fifteene and twenty seuen Chapters of that booke , and Arnobius vpon the seuenty fiue Psalme , make mention of abrenuntiation , & of some other ceremonies , before mentioned by the other fathers : but yet neither these , nor all the other laied togither , that you haue named , either in the places mentioned by you , nor any where else , mention al the ceremonies which you vse , by far , though you would by your lowd bragging make your reader beleeue they doe . Thus you see , vnlesse you had beene disposed vtterly for euer to shame your selfe , you could not in so few quotations , especially not set on your margent , but in your lines as they are , the better to preuent wrong applying of them , haue beene taken with thus many grosse ouersightes . May not any man ( worthilie thinke you ) hereby iudge , that howsoeuer the names of the fathers are familiar with you , that yet you are a verie stranger in their workes indeed ? Of twenty places , you haue alleadged aright and to the purpose , scarse fiue , and of seuen fathers ( belike because you would not deale partiallie with them ) your happe hath beene , one waie or other , to erre in quoting of euerie one of them . Surelie you are worthie to bee trusted vpon your bare word , without any further examination of your quotations an other time , you haue dealt so faythfully and vprightlie in these . And to conclude this point withall , as though you had most rightly quoted , and that they most pregnantlie had iustified all your Ceremonies as you vse them , you confidently tell your reader , that if hee will reade these places hee shall finde , that they did vse the verie Ceremonies , that you doe vse , and wee so much myslike . Thus yet you coulde set a good face on the matter , though you could doe little else .

But in good earnest , is it your meaning , by these places to make men before that none are to be accounted rightly baptised , vnles vnto him , all these your ceremonies , which you talke of be vsed ? What say you then to Christs baptisme , and the multitudes baptised by Iohn in Iorden , and after by the Apostles , sometimes in one day , in water that was next to hand ? Sure I am , that none of your ceremonies that you striue for here so much , which we mislike , was vsed then to anie of them : and yet I am sure neuer were any with these ceremonies of yours , better baptized , then these were . Nay to presse you a litle further , if these ceremonies were so necessarie as you pretend , how chanceth it , that aboue 600. yeares after Christ ( that is long after any of the fathers you haue named to countenance them withal ) we read in Bedaes story , so often mention as we do , of so great multitudes , here in England , by famous Bishops baptised in one daie in common riuers ? It is vnpossible that they should baptise so many in so short time as that story shewes they did , and yet vse to euery one , all the solemnity of ceremonies , that you here thus pleade for . It is cleare them by that practise , that for all this , and whatsoeuer else any where , either these , or any other doctour , before that time had writen hereof , that then there was no such danger imagined to bee in omitting of these , as your Tridentine councell now , would make men beleeue there is .

But for a general answere to al that you , or any of your side , haue or can alleadge out of any father , either for the iustifying your kinde of vsing these your ceremonies , or any of the other three points that follow in this Chapter ( as long as you are not able to warrant your doings and opinions therin , by the scriptures , which we are sure you shall neuer be able to doe ) by the fathers leaue , though they were as pregnant for you as you pretend ( which they are not neither ) & that by the direction and aduise of the best of themselues , we will & may chuse , for all their writings , whither we will like any whit the better of them or no. For Hierom saieth , that all things which men seeke out and inuent at their owne pleasure , without authority and testimony of the scripture ( as though they were the traditions of the Apostles ) the sword of God cutteth of . Vpon the first of Aggei . And Origen in his first homily vpon Hierom , confesseth , that their iudgements without witnes of the scripture were of no credit . And Hierom againe vpon the 98. Psalme writeth , that all which they spake , they were to proue by the scriptures : and vpon the 23. of Mat. he saieth plainely , that which hath not authority from the scriptures as easily is despised as approued . And Chrysostome vpon the 2. to Tim. Hom. 9. saieth , if there be any thing either to learne or to be ignorant of , we shall learne it in the scriptures . And as for all other authority , Hilary saieth in his 7. booke of the trinity , that it is short , darke & troublesome . And as for Augustine , he of all the rest , hath most plainely taught vs this , in his 19. Epistle to Hierom , and also in his 111. epistle to Fortunatian , where he plainely shewes , that hee gaue no further credit to any mans writings , then he found them agreeable to the scriptures : and therefore de baptismo , contra Donatistas li. 2. cap. 3. he refuseth to be pressed either with the authority of Cyprian , or any other man , or councell further , then by the canonicall scriptures their iudgements are approued : and he teacheth Paulina in his 112. epistle , not to follow his authority , or to beleeue a thing because he hath said it , but to beleue the canonicall scripture . We saie therefore with him lib. 1. cap. 22. de peccatorum meritis & remissione : let vs yeeld & consent vnto the holy scriptures , which can neither deceaue , nor be deceaued : & againe I require the voice of the sheepheard , read me this matter out of the Prophets , read it out of the Psalms , read it out of the law , read it out of the Gospel , read it out of the Apostles writings : in his book de pastoribus c. 14. and so likewise conclude with him , I owe my consent without gainsaying onely vnto the canonicall scriptures .. cap. 61. de naturâ & gratiâ , and according to these bookes of the scriptures , we haue learned of him to iudge freely of all other writings . lib. 2 cap. 29. contra Cresconium . The fathers are full of such places , whereby any man may see , that by their very good leaue , we are not to be pressed to beleeue or receaue any thing , not taught in the scriptures , vpon their bare authority , and therefore these and such like places in them considered , if you would haue had their names , & the places you cite in them , to haue in sadnes , bred any sound credit to any of these foure points you alleadge them for , either should you haue warranted them , by good proofe out of the scriptures your selfe , or haue shewed vs how they proued them consonant , at the least , to the same .

Howbeit because you shall not abuse the Reader , to make him thinke , that the fathers you name for these matters , are further of your opinion then they be indeede , as I haue not refused to examine your opinion , and the places you send vs vnto for your ceremonies , so will I , for the Christian readers sake , take the paines to deale with you for , & in al your other 3 opinions , of confession , praier to Saints & for the dead , & with it your seueral quotations , set down for the proofe of the same . To go on therefore according to my course begun : for confession before the receiuing of the sacrament , you saie first , our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs , that the ecclesiasticall ministers haue authority to binde and to forgiue sins : and for proofe hereof you set in your margent Iohn . 20. & Mat. 16. I am sure here by confession , that you speake of , you meane your auricular confession , wherof your Tridentine councel taketh such care , that that in the 6 , 7 , and 8 , Canon thereof , touching this matter , it solemnely anathematizeth al those , that hold auricular confession not to be necessary to saluation , by the law of God , saying that it is but the deuise of man . Which they there haue defined to be a secret reckoning vp vnto the priest , of al mortal sins at the least , with al their circumstances , whereof by due premeditation the party can haue any remembrance , whereunto they bind all persons aboue certaine yeares , of both sexes , at least once in the yeare , and that namely in lent , before their receiuing at Easter . Now this confession , your schoolmen and doctours do teach , must be made so fullie and exactly , that no sin nor circumstance thereof must be concealed , for then therby al the labour is lost , and the absolution frustrated from al the rest . Which doctrine cannot chuse , but a number of waies proue a needles and a desperate tormenting of consciences . For first it laieth vpon them an ineuitable necessity , not onelie to doe , that which God neuer required at their hands , but also that , which either is simply impossible vnto them to doe , for the multitude of their sins and circumstances thereof : or else impossible for them to doe in such maner , as that they can satisfie themselues , that they haue omitted no piece of due premeditation to call all their sins & the circumstances thereof , that they should confesse , to their remembrance , which a number of your owne side most deuoutly giuen to doe this in the best maner , haue bene enforced to confesse . Yet this confession before the sacrament ( though indeed it bee a thing that hath no ground or warrant at all in the Scriptures ) but was ( as both Iohannes Scotus libro 4. sententiarum Distict , 17. art. 3. and Anton: part 3. histatit . 19 , doe confesse ) first imposed as necessary by the Lateran councel , in Innocent the thirds time , about the year of the Lord one thousand 2 hundred and fifteene , you here would seeme to countenance by two places of scripture , co begin withal . But your betters haue thought otherwise , of this your kinde of confession . For your glosse de paenitentiâ Distinct . 5. Cap. in principio confesses plainely , that it came in rather by some tradition , then either by authority of the olde testament or new , which tradition ( he saieth ) yet ought to binde the West Church to vse it , though not the Greekes & East Church which haue it not . And Beatus Rhenanus in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance , forasmuch as hee findeth not therein anie mention hereof , not onely gathered that it was not in vse then , but also hee sheweth , that he thought it came in after & grew of the mislike of the inconueniences of the continuance of publicke confessions made in the publicke assembly in the hearing of al the congregation vsed seuerally in the former times . And Soto contra Brētium reckoneth vp both your other two points following of praying to Saints , and for the dead , & this also , amongst the things grounded but vpon the vnwriten word or tradition . You had therefore delt both more wisely and more simply & honestly , if of these and such other great Rabbins of your side , you had learned to fetch the ground of this your confession from any where els rather , then from the scriptures . But seeing you will seeme to haue found that ground for it there , which they could not , let vs a little consider , how f●ly now the places you quote , serue your turne . You meane , I am sure , both by your words and quotations , that Christs doing and saying to his Apostles set downe by Matthew & John , in the places you quote in these words : to thee ( speaking namely in the first place to Peter ) I wil giue the keies of the kingdome of heauen , & whatsoeuer thou shalt binde in earth , shal be bound in heauen , & whatsoeuer thou loosest in earth shal be loosed in heauen . And in the other , he breathed vpon than and saied , receiue yee the holy Ghost , whose sins yee remit , they are remitted , & whose sins yee retaine , they are retained . Wherby indeed it is euident , that our Sauiour first promised to Peter in the name of al the rest , & after gaue to al his faithful Apostles , first the gift of the holy Ghost and then power and authority to vse the ●eies of the kingdome of heauen , to binde and loose , and to remit & retaine sinnes , which power and authority they most faithfully and effectually vsed , whiles faithfully they preached saluation to the penitent beleeuer , and denounced damnation to the impenitent vnbeleeuers , with all duety ( as they saw cause ) vsing the censures of the Church of admonition , rebuking , suspending and excommunicating , though they were neuer acquainted with your auricular confession . And likewise the same power is exercised by the Lords faithfull ministers in his church still , not by the helpe of your eare-shrist , pardons &c. but by their faithful preaching of the will of God , sacraments ministring , and vsing of the other censures in due time and place . They haue a ministry of testification and declaration , by the rule and light of the scriptures , thorow the shining of Gods spirit in their hearts , to assure them that rightly vnderstand them and beleeue them , of that assuredly : which God only doeth properly , absolutely and principally . But you seeme in thus alleadging of these places , first , so thinke that the power and authority the Christ here gaue his Apostles to binde and loose &c. inuesteth them streight with power and authority to binde euery man to make vnto them your auricular confession : whereas we neither read that any did so vnto them , nor that they for all this , euer exacted any such thing at any mans hands , that they dealt withall : and secondly , you seeme to take the power giuen them , and from them deriued to other ministers here , to be such , that they properly and absolutely should haue power to pardon sinne . &c. which is absurd and blasphemous for you once but to imagine . For so can none forgiue sinnes , but God onely . How can you say or thinke , that a Priest properly or absolutely can absolue one of sinne , seeing he may not so much , as pronounce or declare a sinner to be pardoned of God , vnles he be contrite , penitent , and faithfull indeede . Now God onely and the party are priuy to this , whither these thinges be sound and right in the heart or no , for an hypocrite can make a shew to deceaue man withall in these ( you know ) vnles therfore we will thinke that we haue power to absolue him whom God yet condemneth , our pronouncing of pardon or absolution to those that seeme such vnto vs , must be but conditionall , if they be such in deede as they make shew for , and therefore neither is , nor can it be proper or absolute . Ambrose libro 3. de Spiritu Sancto ca. 19. by that of Iohn , proues the godhead of the holy ghost , for that he can and doeth forgiue sinnes : which were no good argument , if by that place , Christ meant to giue ministers power and authority properly and absolutely to doe it , vnles it be lawful to think , that they are very Gods . But marke , I pray you , your kinde of reasoning from these places : Christ gaue to his Apostles power and authority ( giuing them the holy Ghost ) to bind and to forgiue sins , ergo auricular confession before the sacrament thereby was enioynes : this is your argument , or else you saie nothing in all this for your selues against vs . For we deny not , but most willingly confesse , that by these places it is certaine , that Christ gaue vnto his true ministers , to whom he gaue the holy Ghost , power and authority as ministers to doe this . But what is this to authorize your priestes , which are no ministers of his ordinance , and to whom hee hath not giuen that spirit to doe this ? Or what is this if they had authority to doe it , either to that which they take vpon them , or to enforce a necessity of such auriculer confession , as you practise and pleade for ?

Herein it is with you , as it is in other points of your religion , you are deceaued , and after seeke to abuse and deceaue others , with the ambiguity and diuersity of acceptions of confession . For that is a common tricke with you , when you finde either in scripture or father , that there is but the word mentioned , that by any stretching maie reach to your meaning , to alleadge that streight , as flat , full and pregnant for your purpose , when as indeede , if the circumstances of the place he looked into , it is as far from countenancing your opinion as may be . So in this case , you finding in scripture some mention of confession of sinnes , and sundry examples of the same , and likewise in the fathers , you finding that they exhort and perswade men to confesse their sinnes , you by and by imagined that your auricular confession must needes be that , that they speake of , or at least ( your learning not suffering you so to imagin ) you contrary to your owne knowledge and conscience ( as it seemeth ) could be contented to doe what you could , to make your Reader so to thinke . Wherefore to arme him hereafter against your subtlety , or the cunning of any of your fellowes in this point , and so to giue him a triacle to preserue him from the danger of your popish poison in this case , let him know and vnderstand , that there haue beene and be , many kinds of confessing of sinnes spoken of , both in scriptures and fathers , and yet you neuer the nearer for yours . For Augustine , de verbis Euangelii , hom. 8. very pretily , according to his maner saieth , that confession is tither laudis or fraudis , that is , of praise or of fraude : by the former vnderstanding that kinde of confession , whereby we thankfullie acknowledging , what God hath beene or is vnto vs , we burst forth into lauding and praysing his holy name therefore , whereunto the faithfull seruants of God are oftentimes exhorted in the scriptures , as for example , Psalme 33. in these words , confesse vnto the Lord in harpe , and in a psaltery of ten strings sing vnto him . And Dan. 3. in these , confesse vnto the Lord that he is good , and that his mercy is for euer , which kinde of confession in our Churches we alwaies publickly vse , both before and in the receiuing of the Sacrament , which wee teach to be a Sacrament euen to prouoke vs so to doe , for our free and full saluation purchased for vs by the death of Christ . And the other is the generall ; to all kyndes and sortes of confession of sinnes , which he tearmeth frawde , because by all sinne God or man , or both , are wronged of that which is due vnto them . Otherwise some distinguish confession , into confession of fayth and confession of maners : of the first whereof , sayeth Christ ( Matthew the tenth ) hee that confesseth mee before men , I will confesse him before my father which is in heauen : and of this Saint Paul speaketh , saying , with the heart man beleeueth to righteousnesse , but with the mouth confession is made to saluation , and this is farre more playnely in vse with vs also then with you . For in all our publicke assemblies ordinarily ( as it is wel knowen ) according to the three auncient Creedes , in english , that all present may vnderstande vs , wee make confession of our faith . And as for the later , which is confession of our maners , there is no kinde of so confessing taught and commended vnto vs , either in the olde Testament or new , either to God or man , priuate or publicke , but wee vse it , allowe it , and exhort one an other vnto it , in farre better sort and maner then you doe . Yea to go one step further with you , there is no kynde of so confessing our faultes , by the consent and vniforme practise of the auncient fathers approued vnto vs , but therein also both before the receite of the Sacrament , and at other times ( as occasion serueth ) wee are farre before you , how short soeuer wee come of you , in allowing your auricular confession , which is the onelie kinde of confession , that you plead here for . For looking first into the scriptures , and then into the ancient fathers , these are the onely kinds of so confessing agrees on , & by one consent of them , needful to be practised . First that euery one of Gods people shoulde by the due meditation dailie of his lawe , so bring all his sinnes originall and actuall , small and great , publicke and secret , to his remembrance , that in trueth hee may saie with Dauid , Psalme fiftie one , in respect of them all , in some good measure , I knowe mine iniquities and my sinne is alway before mee : that so with a contrite heart , hope of Gods mercy , and purpose of amendment , hee maie confesse them vnto God , both priuately and publickely , generally and particulerly also , vpon iust occasions we all , with the Scriptures and fathers allow , teach and practise . For it is well knowen in respect of this kinde of confession of sins , wee teach with Salomon , prouerb . the twenty eightth , hee that hideth his sinnes hee shall not prosper , but he that confesseth them and forsaketh them , shall haue mercy . And therefore beside our often confessing our sinnes vnto God against our selues in priuate , in all our ordinary prayers either at home in our families , or in publicke , in our assemblies and congregations , especially before the receiuing of the sacrament , we make humble confession of all our sinnes and vnworthinesse , generally vnto God . Thus did Dauid Psalme thirty two and fifty one , thus did Daniel , Daniel the ninth , and Ezra : Ezra the ninth : yea thus did the publican Luke the eighteenth , they that were baptized of Iohn in Iordan , Matthew the third , and the beleeuers that we read of Actes the nineteenth , vers. eighteenth and nineteenth , confesse their sinnes before God . This we count a necessary fruit of repentance , a good meanes to humble vs in the presence of God , and a way to aduaunce both the iustice and mercy of our God . And to this , we knowe both the Scriptures and fathers all with one consent exhort vs , but especiallie amongst the fathers , Chrysostome is earnest to perswade this kinde of confession of sinnes to God , aboue all other , as it is to be seene in him , vpon the fifty Psalme , hom. 2 ; vpon Matthew , hom. 3 ; vpon Genesis hom . twenty ; and vpon the twelfth of the Hebrues hom . the thirty one ; and else where often in his works . As for particulerly confessing of our sinnes vnto God in the presence of the congregation , ( as I sayed before ) also , vpon iust and due occasion , that is vrged , taught and practised amongst vs . But then it is , but when one falleth into some such notorious and great sinne , publickely knowen to the offence of the Church , for the which hee deserueth to bee excommunicated . And this is either voluntarilie yeelded vnto , and done by the partie that hath so offended , to shew the better his repentance : or it is by authoritie imposed vpon such , for the terrour of others , and satisfaction of the congregation offended . And hereof in Scripture we haue example . For Achans sinne that so troubled the congregation , once being knowen and so publicke , by Iosua hee is commaunded to giue glorie to God , and so before Iosua and the people , hee confesseth his sinne at the appointment of Iosua : Iosua the seuenth : it seemeth likewise that the incestuous Corinth did , driuen thereunto by the authoritie and force of that censure that Paul and that Church layed vpon him 1. Corinthians . 5. and 2. Epist. second and seuenth Chapters . And at the rebuke of Samuel the people particulerlie confessed their sinne in desiring a king . 1. Samuel and twelfth , and at the rebuke of Ezra we read also voluntarily they came , that had contrary to the law of God maried strange wiues , and publikely confessed their sinnes and amended that fault . Ezra the tenth : of such examples of particuler publicke confessing of notorious knowen faults , the ecclesiasticall stories are full : whereof some yeelded thereunto voluntarily , who were alwaies best liked of , and others by order of ecclesiastical censures were brought thereunto . And for this kinde of publicke confessing of our sinnes to God also , it cannot bee denied , but herein wee are far beyond you , in conforming our selues therein far more then you , to the ancient presidenes thereof , found both in Scripture and other antiquity . Indeede I must needes confesse , that I finde in the writings of the fathers , especially in Cyprian , sermone de lapsis , in Tertullian de paenitentiâ , and in Origen vpon the thirty seuen Psalme , that they counted it a commendable thing , and an argument of greater feare of God and loue , if men would not onely thus confesse their notorious publickely knowen sins , but also their secret notorious sinnes , yea then very purposes onely to haue committed such sinnes . But withall I finde that they saw such inconueniences to arise hereof , that first they counselled such therein to be directed first , by some godly discreet minister , when they should so doe and when not : and secondly are long they were driuen to thinke it needfull , for the prouenting of some inconueniences , onely to enioyne them some publicke punishment , concealing the particularity of such their sinnes : and thirdly I finde , the by Leo his time , this was thought to much also . For he in his seuenty eight Epistle , and as he is alleadged by Gratian de paenit . Distinct . 1. Cap. Quamuis . sheweth his flat mislyke thereof , determining it to bee farre better , that the confession bee made onely to the minister . But in the Greeke Church long before Leo his tyme ( as it appeareth in Zozomen libro . 9. cap. 35. historiae tripart ) this publishing of sinnes by publicke confession , or by enduring of some enioyned punishment publickely , was giuen ouer and one appointed in Constantinople to heare the confessions of such as came vnto him : which order also , as it there appeareth was by Nectarius bishop there , caused to be giuen ouer , by occasion that a noble woman confessed , that she had lyen with a Deacon there , in the Church , whiles she was doing there the things that her confessour had enioyned her . So that to go on , by these and other such places more in the fathers , I finde , that secret confession of sinnes to a minister indeede is ancient , and also I must needs confesse , I finde , the fathers often exhorting-men so to confesse their sinnes ; but yet then ( good Christian reader ) thou must vnderstand , that it was ●either vsed nor vrged , but in certaine cases , as when otherwise the party could not tell how to comfort himselfe vnder the burden of his sinne , or to get out of the snares and fetters thereof . It was neither taught nor vrged then as an ordinance of God to bee kept vnder paine of damnation , as it is in the Church of Rome , neither yet were they vrged to make such an exact enumeration of all their sinnes , and the circumstances thereof ; as that Synagogue now teacheth . For then durst not Nectarius ( as is aforesaied ) haue abrogated that order , and haue thence forth left euery one when he communicated , iudicio conscientiae suae ( as Zozomen there plainely affirmes he did ) neither before that could one confessour haue serued for all the Christians in that great and famous City , where I read in Iustinians time , there were sixty ministers . But this is the plaine trueth , it was vsed and exhorted vnto , as a good profitable order to be vsed so long , and so far forth : as they saw it needful , and a furtherance to vertue and godlinesse . And this is certaine , the fathers by Albine here cited for auricular confession , speake onely either for publicke confession , of publikly knowen notorious sinnes , before the receit of the sacrament : or else onely to perswade men , when they feele themselues sicke of sinne , and grieued with the burden thereof in conscience , then to confesse such their sinnes vnto some godly discreet minister , that hath both skill and will to comfort their distressed soules . In which case and maner wee allow and like aswell as they , that men should so doe , and it is a thing much vsed and practized amongst vs . There is lastly a confession of sinne of one brother or Christian , to an other whom he hath offended , to breed reconciliation againe betwixt the parties , taught by Christ , Matthew the fift , and eighteenth Chapters , Luke the seuenteenth and Iames the fifth : allowed both by scriptures and fathers with one consent : and this before the receit of the sacrament , and at all other tymes wee teach and vse as very necessary . Other confessions then these we neither finde taught nor practized in the old Testament nor new , nor yet vrged by any of the ancient fathers you name , either in the places by you remembred , or else where ; and therefore you haue but beene abused , and now seeke by the sound of their names to abuse others , whiles you would make men beleeue , because they speake of some of these kindes of confessing of sinnes or other , in these places , that therfore they speak for your Lenten shrift , or auricular confession , which was not so much as once thought of by any of them , nor for many hundreth yeares after the latest of them , by any other writer of credit . The question indeede betwixt you and vs then in this poynt is not , whither sinnes be to bee confessed at all before wee receiue . For yee see most willingly we confesse sundry wayes they may and ought : but this is it , whither such particuler and speciall confession of all our sinnes and the circumstances thereof , that we can possibly by due premeditation had thereof remember , in secret to a Priest , be by Gods ordinance absolutely necessarie to remission of sinnes , for all of both sexes once in the yeare at the least or no. Wee holde the negatiue , and you the affirmatiue . That sinnes haue beene , and may agayne bee in secret confessed to such as be faithfull ministers , and that the so doing some tyme , is very good and profitable , wee deny not , you see : but either to imagine such a necessity as you teach thereof , or to bynde to such a full enumeration of all at anie tyme , are the thinges wee saie which you can neuer proue , either by Scripture or father . For your owne Gratian , brings sundry authorities before that Lateran councell , when first this your opinion of the absolute necessity thereof , to saluation was aggreed vpon ( as you may reade in him de paenitentiâ Distinct. 1. ) some for the necessity , and some to the contrary thereof , and in the end Cap. Quamuis : concludeth thus : to which of these opinions one should rather sticke , I leaue to the readers iudgement , for both partes ( sayeth hee ) hath astipulatores sapientes & religiosos viros , that is , fauourers , men that are both wise and religious : and Panormitan a great Doctour of yours disputeth the matter , that your confession is not by Gods lawe but by mans . And Chrysostome that succeeded Nectarius , so liked his predecessours act , of abrogating the order of secret confession to the confessour , that he in his fourth sermon of Lazarus saieth : Caue homini dixeris peccata , ne tibi opprobret &c. that is , take heed that thou tell not thy sinnes to man , lest hee vpbraide thee with them , neither confesse them to thy fellowe seruaunt , that hee may publish them , but confesse them to God the Lorde : and the like he writeth hom. 31 , vpon the 12 of the Hebrues , and vpon the fiftieth Psalme ( as he counteth ) and else where often in his workes . And as for your special and particular enumeration of all sinnes , and their circumstances that possibly can be remembred , Beatus Rhenanus , a frend otherwise of yours , in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance , reporteth , how that euen for the vexation and torment of consciences that that bread , one Geilerius a Carthusian monke , wrote a booke , which he entituled de morbo confessionis , of the sicknesse of confession , against the morosity & scrupulosity , brought in by Thomas and Scotus and other schoolemen : of whose minde for that point , Beatus Rhenanus sheweth himselfe to be . And howsoeuer a number of your Priests , by their fruites haue made it appeare , that of all other they would be loth that young women should not come to auricular confession vnto them , yet I can tell you , Basil in his no question thinketh it not very decent , that such should come alone , but rather aduiseth that the younger by the graue elder women should make their state knowen , that by them they may receiue comfort or direction what to doe : as they shall neede .

But yet , because I would be loth to omit any thing either to cause you ( Master Albine ) to thinke that you haue saied or alleadged any thing of weight to iustifie this your kinde of confession withall , or to cause the reader to suspect , that these fathers , whose names you haue brought vs for this purpose , in these places , say more directlie for you , then they doe : let vs particulerly examine your quotations , alwaies remembring the state of the question , as it is in this point betwixt vs . Your first man is Cyprian in his fift sermon de lapsis : wherein his purpose was to perswade them , that had either grieuously fallen from Christianity to idolatrie , or that had but a secret purpose for the safety of themselues so to doe , effectually to repent thereof , in persuit of which his purpose in the ende hee commeth to that ( which it seemeth you ayme at ) to note it as an argument of greater fayth and better feare in such that will ( though they haue but thought so to fall ) yet sorrowfully and playnelie confesse the same before the Lordes Priestes , and so making exoniologesin , that is , publicke confession of their conscience shew forth the burden of their minde , seeking holesōe phisicke , though , for their small woundes in comparison : and therefore a little after , he there earnestly exhorteth euery such offender , in purpose or performance , to confesse their fault therein whiles they be here , whiles their confession and repentance may be acceptable with the Lorde . Which place serueth wel to proue , that then of such notorious faults there was vsed and lookt for publicke and sorrowfull confession . But what is this to the enumeration of all sinnes remembred in secret in the eare of a Priest ? Sure I am , in that sermon before he came to these wordes , contrary to your doctrine and practise in this very point , he teacheth , that veniam peccatis quae in ipsum commissa sunt , solus potest ille largiri , qui peccata nostra portauit &c. that is , he onely can giue vs pardon for our sinnes , that bore our sinnes &c. adding streight , man cannot be greater then God , neither can he being a seruant , by his indulgence , remit or forgiue that , which is grieuously committed against God , least so to him that is fallen this fault come vnto his other , that he forget that it was saied long ago Hier. 17. cursed is that man that hath his trust in man . And therefore both immediatly and thorow that sermon , he is earnest to moue them that were fallen , to fly to God in prayer , in weeping , and mourning . Now indeede both for their better direction to turne vnto the Lorde effectually , and for the further declaration and testification of their repentance to be vnfeyned , he would haue confession of such their falles to be made with all sorrowfulnes before the Lords Priests . Let this doctrine therefore of his onely be receaued , and your auricular confession will come short home . For if none but such that haue so fallen as he there speakes of , should confesse such their falles : and that onely to that ende that he teacheth , without all opinion when they haue done , that any can absolue them but God , your confessours and ghostly fathers ( as you tearme them ) might be set a begging for any liuing they could get by hearing of confessions . The next you alleadge is Origen vpon the 37. Psalme , and in his 2. Hom. vpon Leuiticus : wherin indeede he counselleth those that haue fallen into any greeuous sinne , though secret , yet to seeke out some discreet and skilful Phisition , to open their disease and distresse of minde vnto that according to his counsell and aduise they may doe : either in publickly confessing of them , or otherwise in repenting of them ; and this is the most that can be made of any thing fated by Origen , in these two places : but this his counsel may bee followed thorowly , and yet you come very short of prouing the necessity , by gods law of your auricular confession , or speciall and precise enumeration of all the sinnes and circumstances thereof in the eare of a Priest . The phisicke that they fought at the Priestes handes in these cases , was direction how to repent , and to recouer comfort vnder the burden of their sinnes , by the meanes of such comfortable doctrine and counsell , that he should giue them out of the booke of God : and the thing that you seeke for at their hands is absolution , to be pronounced by them vnto you for your so confessing . So that neither for matter to be confessed , nor for the ende thereof , haue you any warrant and countenance from them . After Origen , Augustines 2. booke de visitatione infirmorum is produced , in which booke , the authour threatneth damnation to such as hauing sinned , shunned the iudgement of men , & yet tooke not occasion , by the consideration of Gods iudgement , which they could not shunne , to repent and amend : but if they iudged and amended themselues , he doeth not so . Allen will not stand to it , that those bookes were Augustines , writing of this matter . And Erasmus censure therof was , that it is sermo locutulei , nec docti , nec diserti , that is , it is the speech of some pratler , neither learned nor elequent : yea hee addeth what forehead or minde had they , that thrust vpon vs , such writings vnder the name of Augustine . And the diuines of Louain say flatly , it was none of his , & therfore with farre more credit to your cause might you haue let this testimony alone , and neuer haue mentioned it . But whosoeuer were the authour thereof , no more can be grounded thereupon , but that be thought it good , to further the repentance of the party , that hee should confesse his sinne , that he had fallen into and offended Gods Church withal , to the minister , that by him he might be dealt withall by correption , admonition , or consolation , as he saw good . And the edge of his speech is not simply against such as did refuse to confesse their sinnes to Gods ministers , but onely against such , as refusing so to doe , did not repent , for he saieth si ea confiteri aut emendare noluerint , and againe , si in malo permanserint , that is , if they will not confesse them , nor amend , and if they continue in euill . Besides , if the words in the place quoted by you , be well marked , it wil therby sufficiently appeare , in that there were then so many reasons that staied men ( as there by that authours wordes , it seemeth there were ) from confessing to the priests , that it was not then thought , that so to confesse sinnes , was so necessary as you would now pretend yours to be . If it had beene either thought to be simply necessary by Gods law , or it then had beene thought and knowen to be a set law of the Church , to confesse sinnes in secret to the ministers , why haue not you , nor yet any of your side , brought vs any ancient doctor , that euer vsed either of these reasons to perswade men vnto it . Cyril in his 12. booke vpon Ioh. cap. 56. is the fourth man you cite for this purpose , which place if you had euer read , you should haue found him to set down this first , as a most sure principle , that only God is he , that must loose a man from his sinnes , for to whom else ( saieth he ) shall it be lawfull to deliuer transgressours of the law , but vnto the authour of the Lawe himselfe ? Which position if it were receaued , there would be smal hast made to your eare shrift . But then indeede it followeth in him , how then did Christ giue this diuine power to his Apostles ? Whereunto his answere is , that he gaue it them because he gaue them the holy ghost , & because the holy ghost by them forgaue sins : which he sheweth the holy ghost did , by vsing their ministry , to baptise men and to bring them to repentance , by rebuking of sinners , and by shewing them fauour againe , as Paul dealt with the man of Corinth . So that you see his doctrine is there , that men come to haue their sins forgiuen them , by the holy ghosts vsing our ministry effectually to bring men to repentance : where to make auricular confession to men of all their sinnes is not reckoned vp as anie meanes whereby in the Apostles , or by the Apostles , the holy ghost forgaue anie their sinnes , but to preach the worde , to minister the Sacraments , and to vse the censures of the Church , in due season are noted to bee the meanes . Hee sendeth vs there , you see , to the example of Pauls dealing with the man of Corinth , of whose repentance and receauing againe into Gods Church , and so to a liuelie hope of the forgiuenesse of his sinnes wee reade , but that either Paul or anie other minister had him before them to bring him to this , by auricular confession , wee neither reade nor can beleeue , and therefore Cyril is rather quite against you , then any thing for you in this point , in that place . Now last of all , is Hierom vpon the tenth of Ecclesiastes , where all that he saieth is this , if the Serpent the Deuill priuilie bite anie and infect him ( none being priuy thereunto ) with the poison of sinne , if he that is strucken holde his peace and repent not , nor will confesse his wounde to his brother or master , the master that hath a tonge to cure him , easily cannot profitte him : who of vs denie this , that hee that will neither speake and repent , nor thus by confession seeke for better physicke at the hands of the spirituall physitian , then he can giue himselfe , cannot easily be profited by such a physitian ? Yea that more is , we say and holde , that hee that will neither repent betwixt God and himselfe , nor yet seeke to those to shew his estate , that are appointed to teach him how to repent , is in a most fearefull case . But yet againe we say , that they , that in such secret sinnes , whereof Hierom plainely speaketh , will with Dauid acknowledge their sinne vnto God , and not hyde their iniquitie . Psalm . 32. but forsake it , they shall haue mercie , Prouerb . 28. though they neuer bewraie those their sinnes to anie Priest or minister . Neither hath Hierom , nor any other of these fathers , in any of these places , saied any thing to the contrarie . What are you therefore the nearer , for anie thing that they haue saied , to proue the necessity of vniuersall and speciall enumeration of all sinnes that can bee remembred , with all the circumstances thereof , in the eare of a Priest , though otherwise neuer so well confessed to God and repented of . Yea what haue any of them spoken in any of these places , either to proue the necessity or vniuersality of your kinde of confession , which are the thinges you should haue proued by them , or else you proue nothing in question , or to the purpose ? For let confession of sinnes vnto them be free , as it was in their times , and in such cases , as men cannot otherwise so well , get ease , remedy and comfort against their sins , we are very well contented with them , to perswade men , that it is a very good and profitable way for them , in sicknesse and in health , to confesse vnto some discreete minister or ministers , what sinnes they be that so trouble them , that so aduise by them , may be ministred vnto them accordingly . And this is the vtmost that any of these places can haue , so much as any shew to helpe you vnto : which is as farre from yours , as chalke is from cheese , you hauing made it , as you haue , a matter of absolute necessity , and hauing stretched it to such a full speciall recitall of all , and that by all persons and sexes at an appointed time of the yeare , as you haue also . But enough of this matter , now therefore let vs go on and see , whither you haue anie better holde in the fathers , for the other two pointes behinde .

The next is , praying to Saints in paradise , to helpe vs with their prayers . For the which you alleadge onelie the names of foure , Origen , Chrysostome , Augustine , and Hierom : of which there is not one indeede , that in any of his vndoubted & known works to be his , that so much as mentioneth praying vnto them . For whereas you here haue quoted vs three places of Origen , for this your purpose , the two later , I cannot thinke were his . As for the last out of his 8. booke of Ecclesiast. there are no such bookes fathered vpon him , either in any of his Tomes , that I euer yet could see , nor yet attributed vnto him by Tritenhemius , who reckoneth vp al that he was acquainted withall of his . And as for that , you alleadge out of his second booke of Iob , I graunt whosoeuer was authour of those tractes , hee concludeth the second tract with a grosse popish prayer to Iob. But certaine it is , those tracts or bookes were neuer Origens , nor that prayer of his making or liking . My reasons are these , first , the authour thereof sheweth himselfe an Arrian in the first tract , Erasmus hath obserued , that these of Iob , were neuer but in latin , whereas he wrote all his in Greek : and lastly , because he himselfe ( if that praier were his ) should be contrary to himselfe . For against Celsus lib. 8. ( which bookes are his vndoubtedly ) he answering the arguments of Celsus : that it cannot offend the high God , if the inferiour Gods ( whom Celsus called daemones ) being his frends , be worshipped with inuocation , to prouoke them to sollicite mens causes with the high God ( which argument that heathen wretch there countenanceth with the fashion in Princes Courts , to sollicite the Prince , by such as are about him , euen for all the world , as you vse to doe , your praying to Saints ) telleth him , that one God is to bee praied vnto in the name of Christ Iesus . And as for the Saints and Angels ( saieth he ) though they be Gods frends , yet onely God is to be pleased : and please him , and then also yee please these , pag. 760. and 774. Now in the other place , which is the first you cite , namely out of his 3. Homily vpon the Canticles , al that he saith , sauouring any whit for this your purpose , is this , that hee saieth , it is not inconuenient to say , they pray for vs : wherof likewise , cap. 13. vpon Iosua , and vpon the Epistle to the Romans he speaketh doubtfully and stammeringly , as one not fully resolued that it was so , and therefore confidently to be aduouched and taught : which I thinke was the sowing of some seede towards this opinion of yours . But who is so simple , but he may see , that though this were granted to be an vndoubted and certaine thing , that they pray for vs , yet thereupon it followeth not , that we here must , or may pray vnto them ? And that Origen himselfe neuer gathered so thereupon , it may appeare sufficiently by his foresaied answer to Celsus . But howsoeuer , it is knowen well enough , that Origen was not thought , of the ancient fathers themselues an authour of the credit , that whatsoeuer he taught or thought , ought streight to be receaued as true and sound . For it appeares plainely in Epiphanius , Tom. 2. haeresi 64. and in his epistle to Iohn of Hierusalem , that his opinion of him was , that he was not sound in doctrine , and Hierom ad Oceanum saieth flatly of him thus , I haue praysed Origen as an interpreter , but not as a teacher , his witte , not faith : and further he saieth of him , Beleeue mee that haue experience , his doctrines are poysoned , disagreeing from the scriptures , offring violence vnto them . And Eusebius out of Aegesippus lib. 3. cap. 32. noteth , that vnto those times ( about which he began to florish ) the Church remained a pure and vndefiled Virgin , but then errours as though they had conspired so to doe , burst into the Church , as into an empty house , with naked and bare face and head . But yet for any thing that either you haue noted out of Origen , or that I can espy elsewhere in any of his vndoubted writings , for this matter , he can be charged no further , but for setting abroach and a foote this question , whither the Saints praied for vs or no ? Whereupon shortly after , and by obseruing that sundry miracles were done , men praying vnto God by the tombes of martyrs , it began more strongly to be thought , that the soules of such in heauen , did much with God for men here in earth , in so much that thereupon it grew to be an vse , to go vnto martyrs in prison , to request their praiers , when they were departed to God . So that by Cyprians time , which was not long after , these thinges began , for he died Anno Dom. 249. ( as it appeareth in his lib. 3. epist. epist. 18. & lib. 1. epist. 1. ) it was taken for so resolute a trueth of him , that they could and would remember their olde frends here , that he in these places vse there exhortations to the faithfull brethren aliue , that in any ease they would remember out another , when anie of them were dead . But yet for all this , finde I not , that in any of these times , or long after , any teacher allowed and of credit in Gods Church , was so bold , as therefore either to pray vnto them when they were dead , or to teach others so to doe . And yet you confidently here further send vs to Chrysostomes 8. homily vpon the epistle to the Ephesians , to Augustines to booke & cap. 21. against Faustinus ( you say , but you should haue saied Faustus ) and to S. Hier. against Vigilantius , there to read , prayer vnto them , by them taught and iustified . I wonder that you were not ashamed thus shamefully first to bee abused your selfe , and then thus to seeke to abuse your Reader . For let him reade , and reade againe and againe , all these places , and I assure him he shall not finde one worde or sillable vttered in any of them in the allowance of praying vnto them . In the first place , Chrysostome according to his maner , doeth sollace himselfe much about Paules cheine and imprisonment , but not a worde is there vttered by him of praying , either vnto Paul or to any other Saint , nor yet of their praying for vs . And in Augustines twenty one Chapter of his twenty booke against Faustus ( if you had taken the paines to reade the Chapter ) you should not onely haue found no mention at all there of praying vnto them , but very much there set downe by him directly against your fashions in honouring of them . For there first , he flatly condemneth as idolatrous , dedicating altars vnto them , offering sacrifices vnto them , and their shrines , and worshipping of them with any diuine honour , & sheweth that such as any of these waies honour them , are either by sound doctrine reproued , that so they maie amend , or shunned : which are most notoriously practised by you , in dedicating Churches and Chappels vnto them , calling them by their names , in running a pilgrimage not onelie to their reliques , but to their pictures , and there offering before them what you thinke good , and most grossely in praying vnto them , which if it bee not a speciall point of diuine honour , nothing can bee . And then he sheweth what honour it is , that is to be giuen them and no other , namely , the honour of loue and society , as wee honour therewith , holy men here aliue ( though then , therewith so much the more deuoutly , as their state is more blessed ) and the keeping of their memories ( to prouoke the better others to imitate them ) with religious solemnity : and else where hee seemeth to like verie well that they should bee honourably both thought of and spoken of , that they ought decently to bee buried , and haue their tombes and sepulchers kept and preserued , and that it was lawfull thereby , to pray vnto God for such things as were lawfull , & that men stood is neede of : and lastly , the furthest that euer he went either in this place or any where else was this , that hee thought some good came by their praiers , to such as thus honoured them , or rather GOD in them . And further then thus neuer went Hierom against Vigilantius . So that all this while , we cannot finde so much as praying vnto Saints , either in Origen indeede , or in Chrysost , Augustine , or Hierom , once mentioned in these places you quote : that they pray for vs , and that their prayers may doe vs some good , is the most wee finde in any of them : which though it were graunted you , yet thereupon it followeth not , that we are to pray to them , as I haue saied . For if that be a part of their duety , by God looked for at their hands , such is their state of perfection there , that we may bee sure that they neede not ( as men here subiect vnto infirmities doe ) by vs to be put in remembrance of their duetie . And againe , seeing wee haue neither commaundement in Gods booke to direct vs , example to leade vs , nor promise to encourage vs to praie vnto them there , especially prayer beeing , as it is , a speciall spirituall worship , for the making whereof vnto God onely in his worde , wee haue all these three , whatsoeuer they doe or can doe for vs , wee dare not without warrant from God , yea contrary to the direction that we haue from him in this point , take this honour of praying to him alone , from him , to giue it to them . Yea wee cannot but see , these thinges considered , that if wee should , therein wee should neither honour them nor GOD aright , and that in very deede our doing so , could not be obedience to GOD , but disobedience , not proceede of faith , but rather of lacke of faith in him , and so would be both a dishonour of GOD , and then also indeede wee finde , that GOD hath saied vnto vs flatly , Call vpon mee in the daie of trouble , so will I deliuer thee , and thou shalt glorifie mee . Psalme 50. And that hee is a Lorde so iealous of his owne glorie , that hee will not giue it to another , he hath plainely taught vs , Esaie 42. And therefore seeing Christ ( of whom when he should come , the very woman of Samaria had learned , that hee should teach vs all things . Iohn . 4. ) teaching his Disciples to praie ( Matth. 6. and Luke 11. ) hath taught them no otherwise to praie , but to him , to whom when they prayed , they might first say , Our father which art in heauen , & then concluding their praies , adde , for thine is the kingdome , the power and the glory , for euer & euer : we being sure , that without blasphemy we can neither beginne nor end our praiers thus , we dare not direct our praiers to any Saint or Angell , but onely to God . We are sure he is able both to heare our prayers , and to graunt our requestes , because hee is almighty : and that hee is willing so to doe , wee haue assurance , as long as wee aske according to his will : the first of Iohn and the fift , because he is mercifull and true , and faithfull in all his promises . And therefore we thinke it is a sure way , to run to him , and to trust to him , in all our needes and necessities . If we would haue an aduocate either of mediation or intercession vnto him , wee haue one for all , euen Iesus our Lord and sauiour . For as Paul first teacheth vs , ther is but one God , so likewise in the same verse he assureth vs , there is but one mediatour betweene God & man , which is the man Christ Iesus . 1. Tim. 2. and Iohn ioyning with him in his first epistle & second Chapter , pointeth him only vnto vs to be our aduocate with the father . And he being the ¹ fountaine of al grace & mercy , the ² authour and finisher of our faith , ³ the dore of the sheepfold , ⁴ the way , truth & life , his ⁵ name being the onely name wherby commeth saluation , ⁶ and he being he , but by whom ( he himselfe hath tolde vs ) none commeth vnto the father ( 1 Iohn . 1. vers. 14. & Colos. 1.19 . ² Heb. 12.2 . ³ Iohn 10.7 . ⁴ Iohn . 14. vers. 6. ⁵ Act. 4 12. ⁶ Iohn 14.6 . ) especially seeing he hath allured all that are heauy loaden and weary to come vnto him , Mat. 11.28 . he being of that property that we know he is , not to break a broken reed , nor to quench the smoking flax , Esa. 42. ve. 3. and yet able perfectly to saue those that come vnto God by him , seeing he euer liueth to make intercession for them He. 7.25 . We know and are sure we should doe him the greatest wrong that may be , considering also , that he hath vpon his word assured vs , that whatsoeuer we aske the father in his name beleeuing we shal obteine it , Mat. 21 , 22. and Iohn 14.13 . If wee should leaue him at all , one so able and willing euery way to serue our turn alone , to run vnto any Saint or Angel of his . And therfore as we dare make our praiers to none but vnto God , so dare we vse no other mediatour or aduocate vnto him , but onely Iesus Christ our Lord and sauiour . We are sure it sauoureth strongly of lack of faith in vs in him , if not of flat Antichristian blasphemie , once but to imagine , that any be Saint or she Saint in heauen , or Angell , wil be readier to take compassion of vs , or that we may be bolder to vse any of their intercessions to God , then his . For in al things he became like vnto vs his brethren , that he might be merciful , and a faithfull high Priest in things concerning God , that he might make reconciliation for the sinnes of the people , for in that he suffered and was tempted , he is able to succour them that are tempted Heb. 2.17.18 . For we haue not a high Priest which cannot bee touched , with the feeling of our infirmities , but was in all things in like sort tempted , yet without sinne , let vs therefore go boldely vnto the throne of grace , that wee may receaue mercy and finde grace ( through him ) in time of neede , Heb. 4.15.16 . And let vs take heede in this case , whiles we follow your example , in leauing him and running to Saints , to pray for vs , we commit not the two euills , that the prophet Ieremy chargeth the people of Israel withal , Ier. 2.12 . & 13. that is , forsake the liuing fountaine a fountaine of liuing waters , to dig vnto our selues pits , euen broken pits that will hold no water . For as then he saieth in respect of these two faults , O yee heauens be astonied at this , & bee affraide & confounded ( saieth the Lord ) so worthily may we say in respect of this your folly and double sinne in this point . For though to lessen somewhat your sinne herein , you would seeme to plead onely for praying vnto the Saints in paradise to helpe you with their prayers ; that nothing indeede can help you . For not onely for these reasons is euen that abhominable and vnlawful , but certaine it is , that you in your practise ( as I haue shewed at large in my answere to your publishers preface ) most grossely and Antichristianly , pray vnto the Saints themselues , thorough their merits to procure you the thinges you sue for . Yea you are gone so farre , that according to the multitude of your necessities , the varietie of occupations , and the distinctions of regions and cuntries , you haue appointed the Saints to their seuerall offices and limits , therein imitating the idolatrous heathen , who imagining that there were many Gods , thought it good to know euery one of their offices , that accordingly they might vse them , as August : de ciuitate Dei , lib. 4. & 22. noteth . And especially as touching the blessed Virgin Mary , vnder pretence of your loue and deuotion towards her , you haue so forgot your duety & Religion towards her son , that all the titles proper to her sonne , you haue inuested her withall , calling her Mediatris , Saluatris , gate of heauen , queene of heauen , and your only hope & refuge : yea you haue not stucke , calling vpon her , to cry vnto her saying , commaund thy sonne , vse the right of a mother , & so shewe thy selfe to haue the authority of a mother . And yet if you would confesse the trueth in this point , you both should and would acknowledge , that you haue learned thus to honour her & the other Saints , neither of scripture nor of any ancient father , but of cursed & condemned heretiques , whatsoeuer either you here , or any of your fellows else where pretend to the contrary .

For Epiphanius writing first against certaine heretiques called Antidicomarionites lib. 3. Tom. 2. haeres. 78. and next , against others called Colliridians , haeres. 79. of the same booke and come : he sheweth , how that these heretiques exceeded ( euen as you doe ) in offering vnto Mary , and in honouring and worshipping of her , against whom , he there at large inueieth bitterly , as against most vile idolaters for the same , telling them , that so to doe , was vngodly and wicked , and strange from the preaching of the holy ghost , yea altogether a worke of the Deuill , and a doctrine of the vncleane spirit , for Mary was no God , neither was she giuen vs , saieth he , to be adored , though she were a most excellent & honourable Virgin , but ( saieth he ) to forewarnemen , of which kinde of too much admiring her , Christ saied vnto her , woman what haue I to doe with thee ? And a little after in the latter place he saieth , Neque Elias adorandus &c. that is , neither is Elias to be adored or prayed vnto , though he liue , nor Iohn , nor Tecla , nor any other Saint . For the olde errour shall not ouerrule vs , that we leaue the liuing God , and worship those things that are made by him . For they worshipped and adored the creature , praeter creatorem , besides the creator , & they became fooles Rom. 1. For if an Angell will not be adored , how much more will not she that was borne of Anna. And therefore in the ende concludeth Mariam nemo adoret , let no man adore Mary , I say not a woman , but a man neither , For this mistery is due to God , then Angels are not capable of this glorie &c. And therefore the same Epiphanius lib. 1. heres. 38. writeth against the Caians , for their inuocation of Angels . It should seeme therefore , that Petrus Gnapheus ( who was condemned for an heretique in the 5. generall Councell , was infected with some of these heresies . For about the yeare of the lord 470. ( as it appeareth in Nicephorus 15. booke and 28. Chapter ) he was busie in deuising and vrging , how Mary should in the publicke Lyturgie , not onely be honourably named , but also called vpon & prayed vnto . But if we would know the antiquity of these heretiques , and of you their schollers , Epiphanius haeres. 79. sendeth vs for the originall of their pedigree to the woman in Ieremies time , that backd cakes to the Queene of heauen , and powred forth their offerings to other Gods , to prouoke the Lorde to anger ; and therefore he calleth for Ieremy to charme & to stay those adorers of Mary , that he wrote so against , that they trouble the world no more . In deede he saieth roundly to those idolatrous women in his time , in the person of God , Doe they prouoke me to anger , saieth the Lorde , and not themselues to the confusion of their owne faces ? And so goeth on in denouncing Gods heauy vengeance against them for the same , cap. 2. Hier. And therefore seing you are so like them in the cause hereof , take heede you be not enforced to be as like them in the punishment . You haue heard out of Origens 8. booke to Celsus , how like herein you are to that Idolater , both for the matter of your practise and doctrine , and for the reasons you haue to confirme the same , and that he there shewes flatly , that he thought , that that was not the waie to please God , but rather to displease him , to leaue him , and to runne to his Saints and Angels , to entreate them to bee meanes vnto him for them . And Chrysostome also , who is the second man , that here you would make vs beleeue is on your side , to cleare himselfe of all such impietie , de muliere Cananea hom. 12. saieth thus . Tell me ( ô woman ) how thou durst beeing a sinner , goe vnto Christ ? I know what I doe , saieth she ( as he makes her to answer him ) See the wisdome of the woman ( saith he ) she asketh not Iames , Peter nor Iohn . Yea in another homilie of his tom. 5. de profectu Euangelii , he further obserueth , that when the Disciples came and spake for her , he answered , I am not sent but to the lost sheepe of Israel ; but when shee came her selfe , that then shee had her request , so thereby there labouring , and in expresse wordes in that homily , to encourage men directly and immediately as plainly as we doe , to make their praiers to Christ themselues , and not by aduocates . And as for Augustine the third man you name , hee hath meetelie well alreadie cleared himselfe , euen in the verie place you quote , but to make the matter out of doubt , let vs heare him somewhat further to speak for his full purg●●ion in this point . In his fiftie fiue Chapter de vera religione , and in his 22. booke and 10. Chapter of the cittie of God , hee plainely writeth , that to builde either temple or altar vnto Saints or Angels ( then which nothing is more common with you ) is flatly vnlawfull , and in the former of these places hee saieth , that Saints are to be honoured for imitation , but not for religion , adding , that which the highest Angell worshippeth , that must the lowest man worshippe , and in the other hee saieth , that they neuer sacrificed nor builte temples to Saintes . And in the place you cyted out of him , hee saieth , which of the Bishoppes saied , standing at the altar , wee offer to thee Peter , or Paul &c. where , & in his 8. booke of the citty of God , & cap. 27. he vtterly condemneth , as vnlawfull offering of any sacrifice to the Martyrs . And yet more directly against you in his second booke against the epistle of Parm. c. 8. he writeth thus , if Iohn should haue saied , these things wrote I vnto you , that you sinne not , & if any man sinne , yee haue me for an aduocate with God , and I wil entreate him for your sinnes ( as Parmenian in a certaine place , saith he , put the Bishop a mediatour betwixt the people & God ) what good and faithfull Christian , saieth he , would haue suffered him , yea who would haue taken him for an Apostle of Christ , and not for a very Antichrist ? Ambrose also vpon the first to the Romans is as flat against any mediatours betwixt God & vs , besides Christ Iesus , as any of these : yea there he doeth as directly confute your ordinary reason , of your getting the better to God by these , as to the Prince by his Nobles , as we ; telling you first , that that is vnder the pretence of humility & reuerence to the Prince , to make your selues to the perill of your saluation , guilty of high treason against him . For it is to giue that honour that is due vnto the Prince vnto his Nobles , thus to leaue the creatour , to adore the creature : and then further answering you , that your reason holdeth not from Princes Courts on earth to Gods in heauen , For they are men , saith he , & therfore to them men must so come , because otherwise they know not whom to trust , but with God that knoweth al things , to win his fauour , Suffragatore non est opus , sed mente deuotâ , there is no neede of one to speake for vs , but of a deuout mind . And therefore he goeth on and saieth , that such as yet will adore their fellow seruants or creatures , turne the glory of God into the similitude of men , &c. as it followeth in the text . Againe howsoeuer some frende of yours , vnder the name of Athanasius , hath caused one to speake in your language , saying : make intercession for me , mistresse , Ladie , Queene of heauen , yet Athanasius indeede , to make it appeare how much he abhorred that impietie , in his orations against the Arrians , which all men know and confesse were his , first , oratione secundâ saieth , Sancti non postulant a creato aliquo &c. that is , the holie seruants of God , asked not of a creature to bee their helper , Christ therefore whose help they craue is true God : and then againe oratione tertiâ , he writeth thus , creatura non adorat creaturam &c. the creature adores not the creature , therfore Christ who is adored is god . These arguments of his had not beene good , neither would hee euer haue made them , if he had thought it lawful to honour and adore Saints as you doe , or as you would by fathering the former kinde of inuocation of Mary vpon him , make men beleeue he did . And indeede Paul taking it for a thing that could not be denied him , Rom. 10. that none might pray vnto any , in whom he might not beleeue , and it being most cleare , that the scriptures and all the ancient creedes grounded vpon the same , togither with the very forme of our baptisme , allowe vs onely to beleeue in God the father , God the sonne , and God the holy ghost , vnanswerably thereupon it must needes followe , that it is grosse idolatrie , to pray vnto any other . And so much in plaine tearmes hath Sedulius , aboue one thousand yeares ago , most flatly set downe vpon the first of the Romans , saying , Adorare alium praeter patrem , filium & spiritum sanctum , impietatis crimen est , that is , to adore any , beside the father , the sonne , & the holy ghost , is an vngodly wickednes . Cyril also ad reginas de rectâ fide , &c. sendeth them that would obtaine their prayers , to God the father , in the name onely of Iesus Christ , because , solus naturâ & verè est Deus , he onely is by nature and in trueth God : & contra Iulianum lib. 6. he flatly saieth , the holy martyrs , neither doe we say to be Gods , neue adorare consueuimus , neither doe we vse to worship them . Yea Remigius , who liued well nigh 900. yeares after Christ , sheweth vpon the 96. Psalme , that not onely images are not to be adored , but he saieth plainely , no nor an Angell is to be adored , because of that warning of the Angell to the contrary in the Apocalips . To conclude , euen Hierom himselfe , your owne fourth and last man , whom I haue therefore kept to the last , because many of you thinke that hee is much of your side , against Vigilantius , writing against the saied Vigilantius to one Ripacius , cleareth himselfe to be farre from this folly and blasphemy , that you would make him an earnest procter for . For there hee hath ( to shew his iudgement in this case ) writen thus , non colimus & adoramus , we worshippe not and adore , I say not the reliques of martyrs , but neither sun , moone , Angels , Archangels , Cherubin , Seraphin , nor any name that is named either in this world , or that which is to come ( beside the trinity , for so he must be vnderstoode ) For immediately he addeth this reason , least wee should serue the creature aboue the creatour , who is blessed for euer . We honour ( saieth he ) the relicks of the saints , that we may adore him whose martyrs they be . And good reason had all these fathers , thus flatly to set downe their mindes against you . For you know it is writen , Dominum Deum tuum adorabis & illi soli seruies , that is , thou shalt adore the Lorde thy God and him onely shalt thou serue . Deut. 6. Matth. 4. and with this text Christ put the Deuill to silence , when he would haue perswaded him to fall downe and worshippe him : hee had nothing to replie against it , I praie GOD you bee not growen in this point more obstinate and peeuish to withstand the doctrine of this text , and more cunning and subtle to cauill against it , for your owne defence , then hee was . I know some of you , finding the Scriptures and fathers thus directlie to condemne adoration of the Saints ( though they maintaine still all your practise of praying vnto them ) yet haue not beene ashamed to write ( as it appeares in the censure of Colen printed there one thousand fiue hundreth sixty ) that amongst you it was neuer so much as heard , that the Saints are to be adored , for adoration is due onely to God . Whereas they could not bee ignorant that their legends , rosaries , and other their bookes of deuotion , publique and priuate , are full both of the name and thing : did they not knowe that the whole psalter is turned to the Virgin Mary , and that therein it is writen venite adoremus eam , come let vs adore her ? Howsoeuer they knew this or no , they could not forget their olde saying of the Crosse , beholde the woode of the Crosse whereon the saluation of the world hanged , venite adoremus , come let vs adore it . If these will not serue to make them better to remember them selues , let them reade their owne Antonin . part . 3. Tit. 12. cap. 8. and they shall finde him , in plaine wordes to tell them , that the Saints , by the Pope , by his canonizing of them , are set forth vnto men , not onely as an example of faith and holy life , but also abomnibus adorandi & in necessitatibus inuocandi , that is , of all to be adored , and in necessities to be prayed vnto . Wherein to say ( saieth he ) that the Pope erred were hereticall . But this is like your other common shifts , when you say you vse the Saints but as Mediatours of intercession , and not of saluation , which onely belongs to Christ ; and that you : doe not giue them Latreian , but Douleian , that is , as you expound the words , not diuine honour , but an inferiour honour , not asking at their hands that they should either giue you the good things you would haue , or keepe from you the euil , that you would not haue , the falshood and vanity whereof I haue both in my answere to the preface of your booke , and also somewhat in this Chapter already bewrayed . For let any man read ouer & consider your praiers and practise , and he shall finde that you make them mediatours of saluation , and not onely of intercession , though that onely if you did ( it being as it is , a special part of the office of Christs mediatorship , to be the very altar whereupon , and whereby we must acceptably , present these our spirituall sacrifices vnto his heauenly father , hee being , as he is , of himselfe alone thorowly both able & willing fully to execute his owne office ) you could not excuse & cleare your selues , of being guilty of high treason against Christ . And he should further finde , that you giue the diuinest honour that may bee , & that you doe directly beg all things euen at their hands , that you can beg at Gods . For it is vsual with you to sing to Mary : salua eos quite glorificant : saue them that glorify thee , that succour the miserable , help the weake , refresh them that mourne : & you say to her , Mary mother of grace , mother of mercy , protect vs from the enemy , receiue vs at the hour of death : & in the psalter now turned & put forth by the deuout seruant of hers Bonauenture ( as some thinke ) you sticke not to vse all those speeches to her , that in the psalmes are vsed to God himselfe , and therefore you blush not to say vnto her . Haue mercie vpon me O Lady , according to thy great mercy , & according to the multitude of thy mercies blot out my iniquities . But not onely thus haue you doubted about Mary , but quite contrarie to your owne wordes , when you would vse these shifts , you deale with other Saints . For you praie to Basil , that he would looke downe vpon you from aboue , & change your whole life , and you praie Athanasius to direct the holy people , & S. Cyprian to direct both your speech and life , and who so readeth your speculum exemplonim , your glasse of examples , he shall finde there , and in such other bookes of yours , such stories tolde of things done by this Saint and that , for such as worshipped them , as that thereby it may most clearely appeare , that you haue no stay nor moderation at all , whatsoeuer you say , in praying to them .

Thus then thou maiest see ( Christian Reader ) for all M. Albines sending of thee to reade Origen , Chrysostome , Augustine and Hierom , for the maintenance of his praying to the Saints in Paradise , that not onely they haue quite forsaken him therein , but that also both Scripture , they and a number of ancient fathers besides , haue condemned that their praying vnto Saints , for grosse idolatry . The most ( thou seest ) that any of the fathers quoted by him for this , haue saied , that hath any sound the way , is , that they thought it was not inconuenient to thinke , that the Saints in heauen , praied for the Saints aliue yet vpon the earth , and that therby they did them some good : which , as I haue shewed thee , by good reasons , proueth not , that therefore they are to be praied vnto thus of vs . But to conclude this matter , euen touching this point , I would haue thee to vnderstand , that the first brochers hereof , & they of the ancient fathers , that most seemed to bee resolued of it , yet spake thereof , but stammeringly and doubtfully . For thou hast heard Origen onely say , that he thought it was not inconuenient to think so , and vpon the second Chapter to the Romans , moouing that question , whether the soules of the Saints departed , doe any thing , and labour for vs , as the Angels doe , or no ? he in conclusion determineth , that if they doe , that yet it is amongst Gods secretes , and that it is a mystery not to be committed to paper . And Augustine , de curâ agendâ pro mortuis , inclines to the negatiue , and therefore to that end alleadgeth , that Esa. 63. Abraham knoweth vs not , and Israel hath forgot vs . And though Nazianzene seeme with Origen and Cyprian to think they doe pray for vs and procure vs good , yet where he shewes himselfe to be most of that mind , as in his oration of Basil , and in his epitaph of his father , he vttereth it not as a resolute trueth , whereof he was sure , but aduouching it , addeth , as I think , if I be not deceaued , or if it be not too much to say so : which argueth , that he was not perswaded and resolued , that it was a plaine trueth taught in the worde , but that onelie it was thought to bee a thing probable and possible : and therefore this must needes be a weake ground to build so massy and huge a building vpon , as the popish praying to Saints commeth to . To conclude therefore this point , in this case notably hath Augustine saied , when the question is of a thing most obscure , the certaine and plaine instructions of the diuine authority not helping vs to decide the matter , let mans presumption stay it selfe , doing nothing by inclining rather to the one side , then another . De pec . meritis lib. 2. cap. 36. And againe , seeing it is euident that they haue no ground for it in scripture ( which some of the best of themselues confesse ) with Augustine let vs say both of this and that which they would builde thereon , of Christ , or of his Church , or of any thing else which apperteineth to faith or life , if we , but as Paul saied , if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto you , beside that which yee haue receiued , in the scriptures of the law & the gospel , let him be accursed : contra literas Petil. lib. 3. Cap. 6. And so vpon these premisses boldly let vs conclude , and say with him , Non sit nobis religio cultus hominum mortuorum : de verâ religione cap. 55. let it bee no part of our religion to worship dead men . For as he there addeth . If they liued godly indeed , they are not now in that minde , that they would haue such honours giuen them of vs , but God they would haue vs worship .

Now we are come to the last point of your 4 , which is praying for the dead : for the which you wil vs to read two places in Tertullian , one in Cyprian , two in Origen , one in Chrysostome , and three in Augustine : which at your request I hauing done ( though I must needes confesse , this your errour in some of these hath more countenance and allowance giuen it then the former had ) yet I hope by that I haue done with you , you shal haue as little cause to brag that all these Doctours teach you your kinde of praying for the dead , as any of the former things , that you haue alleadged any of them for : for some of these your authours in these places you quote , doe not so much as mention praying for the dead at all , onely they speake of a certaine purging paine after this life , & that diuersely , some in one sence , some in an other . But I see , in perusing these quotations ( that your leasure could aford to set downe for this point ) & others , that diuers of your side , vpon deepe deliberation & purpose to handle the matter as seriously as they could , haue to this end remembred : that ( to make a shew of great proofe when you haue very smal ) any place that in any sence maketh mention of purging after this life , that serueth ( you woulde make your reader beleeue ) not only to proue your fained purgatorie , but also to proue your praying for the dead : and againe , any place ( in what sence soeuer ) that mentioneth praying for the dead , that must needs proue both purgatory & your maner of praying to relieue souls there . Which , because it is the thing whereby both you are abused , & wherby most fondly & yet absurdly , in this case you alwaies seeke to abuse your poore simple reader , before I proceede any further to examine your quotations , I must labour somewhat to acquaint him with . First therfore , let him marke what force there is in this kind of arguments : Origen or some other father speaks of some purging paine after this life , ergo of the popish purgatorie . Augustine speaketh vnconstantly or very doubtfully of a purging paine or place after this life , ergo questionles there is such a third place as the papists imagin , & such purging there is as they teach . And there is such a place , ergo they that be there must and can be relieued there by the praiers of the lyuing : or in some sort the dead are to be remembred in our praiers , ergo they in that place , therby to be releiued . For these are the very arguments , which are by the mainteiners of praier for the dead and purgatory confusedly iumbled togither out of the fathers . Secondly , for the better espying of the weakenes of al these arguments , he must vnderstand how variably & vncertainly the fathers haue spoken & writen of purging after this life , & how far from the popish sence : likewise he must be aduertised how diuers waies , remembrance may be made & hath beene for the dead by the fathers , and yet not in their sence . Concerning the first wherof , because Origen & Augustine are two that Albin hath especially here named , by their mentioning of purging after this life , to proue both the popish purgatory and praier for the dead , let vs but take a vew first in what sence they haue spoken thereof , & how vncertainely and inconstantly . And to begin with Origen , both because hee was the ancienter , & because hee was first named , in the very second place here quoted by Albin , he speaketh of purging in the fire of hel , and in the other of purging in such fire , as will consume in them that hold the foundation , their wood , hay , & stubble , that they built thereupon , that so when their soules depart from their bodies , they maie go to heauen , which with those vnconsumed they cannot : which consuming fire he saieth is God . For his words in the latter place are these . He that despiseth the purifications of the word of God , and doctrine of the gospel , reserueth himselfe to sorowful & paineful purifications , that the fire of hel in torments may purge him , whom neither the Apostles doctrine , nor word of the gospell hath purged . And in the other ( preaching I am sure they wil graunt to men aliue and not to the dead ( his words ( the better to make than to looke whiles they were aliue that they caried no wood , hay , nor stubble with them vnconsumed ) be these : if after Christ the foundation , thou buildest thereupon not gold , siluer , & pretious stones only in the minde ( if thou hast any such ) but also hay , wood & stubble , what wouldest thou be done with thee , when thy soule shal be seperated from the body ? Whither wilt thou with thy wood , hay , & stubble , enter in to the holy places and so defile the kingdome of God ? Or for them tary without , & for the other leese thy reward , which is not meet neither ? What followeth then , but the first for these , fire bee giuen thee to consume them ? But God is the consuming fire of these : whereupon a litle after he exhorts al men that haue any such matter in them , that they would know their owne faults & in time amend them . The first place is in his 8. booke and 11. chapter vpon the Romans , and the other in 12. homily vpon Hieremie , euen as Albine cyteth him . Now who seeth not by this , that the purging place that he speakes of in the second place is hell it selfe , and that the other is in this life , whiles Gods children warned in time , whiles they are here , doe let the fire of Gods spirite both reueale vnto them , and consume in them all their vnsuteable building to the foundation , whither it be in religion or maners ? what places then were these ( vnles the papistes bee growen now to be of opinion , that the partition wall betwixt hell and their purgatory is quite pulled downe , and al become verie hell , or else that their purgatorie is in this life ) to alleadge either for purgatory or praiers for the deade ? Further touching Origens fansies about purging after this life , August . de ciuitate Dei , l. 21. c. 17. saith , that the very diuell & his angels after certaine grieuous and long lasting punishments , shal be freed and deliuered from those torments and ioyned againe in society with the holy Angels , as Origen beleeued . And vpon Luke hom. 14. Origen himselfe saieth , I think after the resurrection from the dead , we al shal stand neede of a sacrament to clense and purge vs : for none can arise againe without his defilings . And vpon the 36. Ps. hom. 3. he writeth that he thought , that it was needful that all should come into the purging fire , though hee were Paul or Peter : and of the same mind he seemeth to be vpon the Num. hom. 25. which if you vnderstand of any purging fire of tribulation , or of the inward effectuall operation of the fier of Gods spirit , to lighten , & to purge & consume our darke , sinfull and erronious harts ( for so sometime hee and others of the ancient writers speake ) then these places make nothing for your purgatory , which is after this life : if otherwise you vnderstand him of some fire to purge after this life , so neither is he anie procter for your purgatory , to the which you sende onely the middle sort , neither very good nor very bad . A man therefore may wel think , that you are neere driuen for proofes for your purgatorie or prayer for the dead , when you run to these , or anie such places in Origen , that speaketh thereof so variablie , and not onelie farre from your sence , but sometimes euen in your owne iudgement , aswel as in ours , very heretically . Now as for Augustine , if what he hath writen of purgatory be well considered , your arguments from him will proue as weake , as from Origen . For whereas some of you alleadge him vpon the 103. Psal. serm. 3. for purgatory , it is plaine , that he there speaketh of that purging by fire , which he supposed would be in the end of the world , when all should be on fire , and the good separated from the bad , which fancy he rather chused to fall into , then to holde with Origen , that there is any purging in hell . The same Augustine most commonly vnderstandeth that place of S. Paul 1. Cor. 3. of the fire of tribulalation and affliction , wkereby men are tried and purged , as he proueth out of the scripture , in this life , as golde in the fornace . And as for a meane place of purging any betwixt death & the iudgement , he writeth sometimes confidently that there is none such , and sometimes he leaueth it in doubt . For in his fifth booke Hypognost : against the Pelagians , he acknowledgeth heauen to bee the place for the godly , and hel-fire for the wicked , but a third place , saieth he , we are altogither ignorant of , neither doe we finde any in the holy scriptures . In like sort de verbis Apostoli , ser. 14. he acknowledgeth these two againe , but a middle place hee vtterlie denieth , because there is no mention thereof in the gospell . I know it is answered , that when he saieth thus , hee setteth himselfe against the Pelagians third place , which they assigned for infants dying vnbaptised . But then yet I reply and say , if hee had beene resolued of the popish third place purgatorie , hee would and should haue saied , there was no fourth place and not no third , if to this it bee reioyned , as I know it is by some , that he disputed not there whither there were any more places then two before the last iudgement , but whither there were any more then two euerlasting receptacles , after that iudgement also to continue , and that in that sence onely , he was resolute there was but two : how then will they shift that of his de ciuitate Dei . lib. 13. cap. 8. where deuiding all that die into good and bad , immediately vpon their death , he saieth , that the soules of the Godly separated from their bodies are in rest , and the soules of the other are in paines , whiles the bodies of those rise againe to euerlasting life , and the others to euerlasting paine which is the second death . For here they cannot deny he speaketh of the time & state of soules before the last iudgement : and yet here he findeth no third sort or place for them in the meane time , no more then in the other .

But he was not very constant herein . For in his 21 , booke of the City of God , cap , 26. he saieth , if in this meane time , betwixt death & the iudgement , the souls of the departed be saied to suffer such a fire , or there onely , or there and here , or therefore here and not there , a fire ( he saieth ) of transitory tribulation burning vp their worldly smaller faultes , I reproue it not , because perhaps it is true . & de fide & operibus cap. 14. hee saieth likewise , whither in this life onely , men suffer these thinges , or after this life such iudgements doe follow them ( as I thinke ) saieth he , this sence of Paul is not against the trueth , namely to vnderstand him of the fire of tribulation or triall . And in his Enchiridion cap. 68. he saieth , that the fire that the Apostle speaketh of 1. Cor. 3. is the fire of tribulation , through which both kinde of builders , there spoken of , must passe : and tha such a thing may be after this life , it is not incredible & whither it be so or no , it may be a question . cap. 69. The like he hath of the 8 , questions of Dulcitius , in his answere to the first of them : wherein it appeareth that he was very vncertaine , whither there were or no any such fire of tribulation , after this life any where , before the last iudgement , to purge men of some kinde of sinnes : but what these sinnes were , that staied men from going to heauen straight vpon their death , whereof after they might get some releife and ease , he saieth , it was harde to finde , and perillous to define , and as for his owne part he confesseth , that though to that time he had laboured to finde out what they were , yet he could not , lib. 21. de ciuit : Dei , Cap. 27. And how dangerous it was and is , to fall into such doubts , we may see in him . For in the 24 Chapter of the same booke , it appeareth , that vpon this supposition , that there might bee some such purging fire , as he somtimes doubted of , he moueth this sound question : whither they shall bee saued , whom the daie of iudgement shall finde vnpurged with this fire , which yet might haue beene purged with it , if it had not come so soone ? and he resolueth that with an other doubtful imagination , that they suffering for a time some pains shal haue mercy , as he thought , & not be condemned to hel , and in this saied 20 booke of the City of God he hath an opinion cap. 25. that in the last iudgement before sentence bee pronounced , some shall passe thorow purging paines . And yet in the third question to Dulcitius he determineth it as a flat trueth to be beleeued , that in the last iudgement there shall be no delay , but immediatly vpon the second comming of Christ it shall be , as we are taught Matth. 25. Hereby we see how wattering and inconstant , euen famous learned men become , when they once wander without the light of the word , after the discourses and reasonings of the wit of man . How much better had it bene for Augustin in these questions to remember the rule , and to haue followed that which he gaue others in such cases ( as I shewed before in the conclusion of the former point out of his second booke de pecca : meritis & remiss . Cap. 36. Yet in none of these places or else where can I finde , that he once dreamed of such a purgatory fire as the papists teach , which should be materiall , and of the same nature that the fire of hell is , saue onely that it is not eternal as that . Wherefore I conclude of him as of Origen , these things considered , the arguments are like to be very doughty and strong , that are brought from any mention that Augustine maketh of purgation after this life , either to proue popish purgatory or praier to relieue the soules of them that bee there . And euen as I haue saied of these two , so might I likewise of most of the ancient fathers , from whence they would seeme at any time to fetch countenance for this their purpose , they are so variable wauering and inconstant in their speeches , most of them about this matter : but this I hope is and will be sufficient to proue the weakenesse of Albins arguments from these two , to iustifie his praying for the dead , because these two in some of the places quoted by him ( when he can get them to come no nearer the point ) haue in some sort spoken of purging of men after this life in paines .

Now therefore likewise , I am to shew how weake there arguments be , drawen from some mention found , in some of the fathers , of some kinde of remembring the dead in praiers . Which easily may be conceiued , if we vnderstand , that first there may be an honourable mention or remembrance made of those that are dead in the Lord , without any praying for them at al : to shew our thankefulnes to God for the good example they left vs , both of liuing holily , & dying Christianly , the better to prouoke others , by so remembring of them , to imitate their good example : and lastly so to nourish in our selues , the hope of a ioiful resurrection , and to testifie our loue and Christian affection towardes them so departed : which questionles was all that was done a long time , at the keeping of the memories of their deathes , or at anie time else , and of this very well may both Tertullian and Cyprian be vnderstoode , in the places here quoted by Albin , as I will shewe anon . From such a fashion of mentioning the deade in our prayers , euery simple man may see , popish praying for them hath no countenance at all . Secondly , we ought to be aduertised , that forasmuch as they that are dead in the Lord , haue not yet their consummation , nor shall not , before the last day , that in that respect also , for such ( of whom we fully are perswaded that they so died , that they haue their part in the promisse thereof ) praiers may be made by the godly aliue very lawfully . And therefore thus we graunt the ancient fathers might pray for the dead : and thus we our selues ( as appeareth here in England by the forme of praiers appointed to be vsed at the buriall of the dead , refuse not to pray ; that we with those brethren and sisters of ours , that depart hence in the Lord , may haue our perfect consummation and blisse , at the last day , in the generall resurrection . And yet of praiers thus made , for such onely , by them or vs , neither popish praying for the dead , nor purgatory haue any ground . Lastly it is euident , that many of the ancient fathers of abundance of loue towards their frendes departed , whose soules they were fully perswaded were in rest , and in ioy and felicity with the Lord in heauen ( as they shew euen in the very places when their praiers for them are set downe ) prayed yet vnto God for them . Thus praied Nazianzen for his brother Caesarius , oratione septima , Ambrose for Valentian . de obitu Valentiniani . And for Theodosius . de obitu eius . and Augustine for his mother lib. confess . 9. Cap. 13. Yea ( as William of Westminster reports in his story ) thus Charles the great about 800. years after Christ , wrote to one Offa king here of Mercta , to desire him that praiers might bee made for Pope Adrian , nullam habentes dubitationem beatam illius animam esse in requie , sed vt fidem & dilectionem ostendamus in amicum nobis charissimum : not doubting ( saieth he ) but that his blessed soule is in rest , but to declare our faith , and loue towardes our most deare frend . Wherein they did , as if a tender tutor ouer his pupill , though hee knowe the childes parentes of themselues will more carefully and tenderly looke to their childe , comming home vnto them from the vniuersity , then euer hee , did or coulde , yet writing vnto them , to shewe his loue towardes his scholler , shoulde desire them to vse him louinglie and kindely . Howsoeuer it cannot be denyed , but that this was somewhat more then needed , and was some occasion of further proceeding , from step , to step , vntill there were too too playne groundes layed of popish kinde of praying for the dead , yet euery man most easily may espie that this kinde of praying for the dead , can neuer kindle , either the fire of popish purgatory , or iustifie their kinde of praying to relieue soules there . Indeed it should seeme by Aerius his opposing himselfe against praying for the dead , as it appeareth in Epiphanius hee did , some by that time , mistaking these kindes of praying for them , that I haue spoken of , and stretching the examples thereof further , then they should ( at least as Aerius vnderstood them ) tooke vpon them so to pray for the dead , that howsoeuer a man liued and died , yet after he was gone by the prayers of his frendes , it was thought that he should doe wel inough . Against which kinde of praying for them , he inueigheth as against the bane of all godlinesse and religion , but herein by Epiphanius it appeareth he faulted , that this being but either the opinion of the ignorant multitude , or his owne onely misconstruing the Churches fashion , in remembring of the dead in their praiers or praiing for them , he slanderously laied that to the charge of the Church . Epiphanius therefore in answering of him , laieth this downe for the ground of all the rest , that those whom the Church praied for , were with the Lord in rest and ioie : which flatly sheweth , that the Churches praying for the dead , that he pleads for against Aerius , maketh nothing for the popish praying for them , or for purgatory . But vpon this occasion , AErius vrging this question , whither the praiers of men aliue did profit the dead , and if they did , whither so far , as that thereby they were deliuered from al their sinnes , thereunto Epiphanius ( both belike quite to condemne the opinion of the ignorant multitude , & yet loth also to defend that which he could not iustifie ) first answereth onely , that the praiers made for them were profitable ; & then , that yet not so profitable , as that therby al their sinnes were done away : but neither doeth he simply and plainely answere , that they were profitable to the dead themselues , nor once take vpon him to aduouch , that thereby some certaine sinnes , may be put away : but subtlely leauing these things thus in suspense , he flyeth to other causes and reasons why they are profitable . And the causes and reasons set downe by him are these : first , thereby comfortably their frends aliue are occasioned , to beleeue that they that are dead are not perished , but aliue with the Lord : secondly , that thereby may be nourished in the that liue , this hope , that the soules of them that are so dead , are as pilgrimes gone out of their bodies to be with the Lord : and thirdly , that by praying so , euen for the best , as for patriarches , prophets , Apostles , and martyrs , it may bee acknowledged that the best were offenders , that so Christ alone may haue that preheminence to be a man without sinne , that so all may see , what neede they haue of Christ . The very like reasons to these , are yeelded by him that beareth the name of Dionysius the Ariopagite , of the solemne prayers and solemnities remembred by him at the buriall of the dead , cap. 7. Eccles. Hierarchiae : where , of them that die , he maketh but two sortes , holy and prophane , placing the holy company all of them , aswell the imperfecter sort , as the most perfect , in blessed state in their soules , immediately vpon their deathes : and the other in woe and eternall misery . And yet , he alloweth , not onely , for the former sort thankesgiuing , but also prayers to be made vnto God , that for Christs sake , their sinnes may be forgiuen them , for the comfort and commonifaction of them that are aliue , as Epiphanius did . So that though in this case it be vsuall with the Papists , to make great bragges of Epiphanius , and this Demus , yet if they bee thorowly looked into , they are more against them , then with them . The like may be saied of the rest of the auncient fathers , whom they most make shewe of , in this point : for howsoeuer some of them , maie seeme to come somewhat too neare them , in seeming in some sort to imagine , that some good may growe to the departed , towards the easing of them , of some of their sinnes , by the prayers of the faithfull for them , after they be gone hence ( as it cannot bee denied , but that Chrysostome , Augustine and some others haue thought ) yet that they either placed all , that they prayed for to haue any of their sinnes forgiuen them , in purgatorie , or that they thought that soules so tormented there for sinnes vnsatisfied for here , might thereby bee freed from their sinnes not fully pardoned them ere they went hence ; they shall neuer bee able to proue . And yet these are the thinges that they must proue , or else their maner of praying for the dead is left vnproued . For with one voice , euen they that otherwise seeme most to fauour them in this point , holde , that there is no purgation or clensing from sinne , but onely in the bloud of Christ ; that here pardon of sinnes is to bee obtained or neuer ; and that after this life ended , there is no bettering or altering the state of the departed , before the last iudgement : all which are positions , whereof euery one is sufficient , to quench the fire of the Popish purgatorie , and to ouerthrowe their ende of praying for the dead . For proofe whereof let vs but consider of these speeches and sayings of theirs , amongst an infinite number of like force vttered by them .

The authour of those tracts of Iob ( commonly fathered of Origen , from whence often they would seeme in this case to haue great furniture ) descrybing the fashion of the church in his time , saieth in the third tract or booke : we celebrate not the day of our natiuity , seeing it is the entrance into sorrowe & temptation , but the day of our death , as the very laying aside of all our sorrowes , and the banishing of all temptations , because they die not , but liue for euer which seeme to die : and therefore , saieth he , we keepe the memories of the Saints , and of our parents , and frendes which die in the faith , as reioycing for their rest , so begging for our selues consummation in the faith : and to this ende to celebrate the memory of such so departed , we call the poore togither , and satisfy them with victualls , in token of our ioy & thankfulnes for their quietnes & rest . He that getteth not forgiuenes of his sinnes here shal not be there , and therefore , saieth Dauid , forgiue mee , that I may bee refreshed , before I go hence , and be no more seene ( saieth Ambrofe de hono mortis cap. 2. ) And Cyprian against Demetrian , saieth most flatly , when one is gone hence there is no place for repentance , no effect of satisfaction : & de mortalitate , againe he saieth , what maner of one God findeth thee when he calleth thee , euen such an one also will hee iudge thee . Chrysostome is as flat as Ambrose in these points . For vpon the 4. of the Hebrewe ; hom. 4. he saieth , that if we come to the throne of grace now , we shall haue grace , & mercy , now is the time of gifts , after of iudgement . and in his sermon de Eucharistiâ in Eucaen . there is ( saieth he ) after this life ended no negotiation , this is the time of suffering or striuing , that of crowns ; this of labour ; that of ease , this of sorow , that of reward : & therefore in the 7. Hom: vpon the 2. of the Hebrewes , shewing a reason of the solemnities vsed at burials , he saieth , that the reason thereof is , that we may glorify God & giue him thanks , that hath crowned & taken to himselfe our brother departed , & freed him from his labours & seruitude ; are not our Psalmes & hymnes for this & our singing , omnia ista gaudētium sunt , al these ( saith he ) are the doings of men that reioyce . & de beato Philogonio , most confidently he writeth , Ego fide iubeo &c. that is , I doe pawne my credit , if any depart from his sinnes with his whole heart , & truly and vnfeinedly promise vnto God , that he will returne no more vnto them , that God will require nothing more of him to satisfaction . But to come to Augustin , he in his 80. epistle to Hesichius , saith , in what state soeuer thy last day findeth thee , in the same will the last day of the worlde come vpon thee : for what maner of one euery man dieth , such an one then he shal be iudged : and vpon the 25. Psa. he plainely wisheth , that only the price of the Lords bloud might be sufficient to him for his perfect freedome and deliuerance . Herein we are sure they had the scriptures full of their sides . For first they assure vs , that the bloud of Iesus Christ doth clense vs from all sinne . 1. Iohn . 1. and that hee so bare our sinnes in his owne body vpon the tree , that by his stripes we are healed . 1. Pe. 2. Secondly they teach vs , that blessed are they , that dye in the Lord , for euen thenceforth immediatly they rest from their labours , and their works follow them , Apo. 14. And thirdly likewise directly they affirme , that an ill man once dead , there is no more hope for him . Pro. 11. and that therefore wee must haue oyle in our lamps , in a readines when the bridegroome calleth vs , or else we shal be shut out for euer , what stur soeuer we make to prouide oyle after , Mat. 25. And lastly in these , vpon these grounds all men are vrged , whiles the day lasteth , while the acceptable time or day of saluation endureth , whiles the Lord is nigh and may be found , & whiles they haue time to worke : to embrace the gospel , to seeke the Lord , and to doe good vnto al men , as it is well enough knowen . And therefore if these fathers , as men , at any time , or any other , ether by their example or writing , haue in any point , neuer so litle in any kind of sort crossed themselues , & the holy canonicall scriptures , in any of these points , either in praying for the dead , or in laying any ground or occasion therof , we may boldly leaue them , & chuse rather to cleaue vnto than in these .

These things thus premised , let vs now proceed to the particuler examining of Iohn de Albines quotations , for their kind of praier for the dead . His first man is Tert. for higher he cannot go to fetch any shew of colour for this matter , vnles he would run to Apocrypha writings , to philosophers & poets , to heretiques , or to the notoriously knowen counterfeit writings of Clement & such like . And out of this Tertullian he alleageth two places , the first out of his book de Monogamiâ , & the other out of his book de coronâ militis , both which were writen by him , after he became a Montanist , as Beatus Rhenanus in his arguments of those two books is enforced to confes , for in the later he mentioneth the new prophecy , therby understanding Montanus fancies : & in the other he most plainly condemneth second mariage quite contrary to the doctrin of S. Paul as Hierom hath truely noted vpon Titus , and therefore both there he condemneth that booke as an hereticall booke , and also in his catalogue of ecclesiasticall wryters , as a booke writen against the Church . Albine therfore hath aptlier , then he was aware of , sought out an heretique , in his hereticall wrytings , to bee the first man to speake for the patronising of this popish heresie of his . But perhaps he wil say , that he learned not of heretiques to speake for prayer for the dead . Whereunto I reply , that if euer he wrote any thing therin to serue your turne , he learned it of no better schoolemasters then of such , or of philosophers their ordinarie teachers . For as hee himselfe writeth , de praescript . aduersus haereticos , as the original of al trueth was doctrine receaued by the Apostles from Christ : so the spring of al errour hath beene from the diuel , by philosophers . And touching this particuler , in his booke de animâ , he writeth , that the philosophers that helde the immortality of the soule ( as Pythagoras , Empedocles and Plato ) assigned for soules departed , heauen , hell and a thirde purifying place : and in that booke he sheweth , that Montanus his master helde , that the Patriarches before Christs comming were in hell , that Abrahams bosome was in hell , or in the lower parts , that onely perfect men and martyrs went to heauen streight , and that all small offences must be punished after this life to the vttermost farthing ( his paraclet so expounding that of Mat. ca. de inf. & vlt: and in that booke also he telleth of a woman lying to bee buried , that at the praiers of the Priest ouer her , lifted vp her hands &c. whereby it seemeth , that the heretique Montanus , & his paraclet , might be very fit schoolmasters to teach him a great part of your doctrine in this point . Further , that you may see not only by his own testimony , that he might haue such school masters as I haue saied , to teach him herein , somwhat to fauor you & to speake of your side : Irenaeus in his first book & 24. chapter testifieth of the heretique Carpocrates , that he was a great admirer of philosophy , insomuch , that to the images he made of Christ and of some of his Apostles , he ioyned the images of Pythagoras , Plato , and Aristotle , of whom hee learned to imagine , that there was a purifying place after this life , and so to proue purgatory out of that place of Matthew , as you hearde before Montanus Paraclet did . And the heretiques Heracleones , as Augustine wryteth of them , vsed ouer their deade , oyle , balme , water , and inuocation in the Hebrewe tongue . Hereunto ioyne you Virgils 6 book of his Aeneidos & lying visions , & you haue the right scholemasters , that haue taught you , & al that fauour you in this point . But concerning the places in Tertullian , which you quote , we need not thus answere you , for they are not so pregnant for you , as you imagined . For the words you ground on , in the first place are these ( spoken by him to the wife to teach her how in this point to behaue her selfe towards her dead husband ) & pro animâ eius oret & refrigerium interim adpostulet ei , & in primâ resurrectione consortium , & offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius , that is , let her pray for his soule , and in the meane time desire refreshing for him , and felowshippe in the first resurrection , and let her offer alwaies when the yeare day commeth for his sleeping : which are the words as Beatus Rhenanus confesseth , that he hath so set downe , acknowledging that he found it far otherwise , in all examples before . Againe , not onely this obscurity of Tertullians wordes , and the vncertainety what they were , disableth this place from being of any force for you to ground vpon , but also vnles you must haue it granted , that euery womans husband , to whom he gaue this counsel , was in purgatorie , wherof there is no ground at all in his wordes in that booke , but rather the contrary , whereby it should seeme that he spake of such , as were gone before in peace to the Lord : his words , if they were these , proue not your praying to relieue soules there . And the offering that he lastly speaketh of was either the offering of thankes to God for his quiet rest , and sleeping , or an offering or giuing of almes to the poore , in token of ioy for the same , and to prouoke them to be thankeful therfore also , as you heard me before note , the fashion was when the tracts of Iob , fathered vpon Origen were writen , out of the third tract of the same : and not as you woulde haue it taken , an offering of your propitiatory sacrifice in your masse for his sinnes . For hee saieth for his falling a sleepe , and not for his sinnes , and hee willeth the woman to offer , and not that she should get the Priest to doe it . And in answering of this place , your other is also answered , for there onely he saieth oblationes pro defunctis , pro natalitiis annuâ die facimus , that is , wee offer oblations for the dead , for their birth daies , euery yeares day . For in that he expresly saieth pro natalitiis , for their birth daies , it is euident that he cannot , nor may not be vnderstood , of any other oblation , but of thankefulnesse and reioicing . But this offering for their birth daies , Beatus Rhenanus vpon this place in his notes saieth , was heathenish , and afterwards was condemned and abolished by the Nicene councell and others . And yet for any thing that these words of Tertullian enforce in this place , he speaketh of no other oblations for the dead , but for their birth daies , so that long ago the date and credit of this testimony and fashion was abrogated And lastly , it is not to be forgotten , that he himselfe within few lines after these words , speaking of this fashion & of sundry others that there also he had spoken of , plainely confesseth , that these thinges had no grounde in the scriptures , but onely by tradition . That which other of your fellowes alleadge to this purpose out of Tertullian in his exhortation to charity , may receiue the same answere with these , for it is euident , that booke also was writen in his Montanisme , for there hee is against second marriage as in the first , and so against Paul , Romans . 7. 1. Cor. 7. and with Montanus : and the words are no more pregnant to ground praier to relieue soules in purgatory , then the former were .

Now next is Cyprian , who was a bishop in that City , wherein sometimes Tertullian had liued , in him for your praier for the dead , you would haue vs read his Epistle ad plebem Furnensem , in his first booke . I am sure you meane the ninth Epistle of that booke , writen , as it appeareth there , ad plebem Furnilanorum , though either you could not or would not ( to put your reader to a little more paines to seeke it out ) tell vs so much . But hauing found it and read it , howsoeuer you were perswaded of it , we finde little or nothing there , that can doe you any good , for onely there , of a decree made in some Africane Synode before his time , he groundeth his perswasion to that people , forasmuch as one Victor had contrary to that decree , made one Heminius Faustinus minister , executour of his wil and testament , therefore to stay others from daring any more so to violate that decree , to the calling away the ministers from attendance of their ministry ; that they should execute that decree against that their brother Victor departed : which was , that for this cause , there should be no offering for him , nor sacrifice for his falling a sleepe . For saieth he , he is not worthy to be named in the praier of the Priest , that wil so cal away the ministers or Priests from the altar : & therefore seeing this is Victors fault , let there be no oblation with you for his sleeping , nor in his name any deprecation frequented in the Church . Doe you thinke in good earnest ( Master Albine ) that if Cyprian had thought , that his brother Victors soule , had bene in such paines in purgatory , as you teach are there , and that these were the ordinarie meanes to ease soules there , that for so small a matter as this , the breaking of this positiue law ( which with you is vsually broken ) if in your sence , these things were to be vnderstoode of oblation , sacrifice and praier , for the ease of the party so departed , from vnder the punishment vpon him for his sinnes : that Cyprian either might lawfully , could without too too much cruelty , or would so without all mercy and charity , perswade to depriue a brother departed of these things ? You cannot be so without reason , as once to thinke so . The execution of this Canon against Victor , was but onely a note of some disgrace & ignominy laied vpon him , the better to make others after to regarde that Canon , and not any denying of his soule any thing , so necessary for it , as you would make men beleeue , your prayers for the dead be . For that had beene then , furiously for a trifle to rage against the dead . But alas ( master Albine ) both you and your fellowes are wonderfully deceaued , in thinking that Cyprian meant here by oblation , sacrifice and prayer as you doe . For questionles , by oblation and sacrifice , he meant but the sacrifice of praise and thankesgiuing , and therefore he saied , not pro peccatis eius , for his sins , but pro dormitione eius , for his sleeping , and by praier , not praier for to ease him of his sinnes , but the publique and ordinary praier , wherein then they vsed to make commemoration or remembrance of the godly brother departed , the better to prouoke others thereby to imitate him : which you might perceaue by his saying , he deserueth not to be named in the praier of the Priest . All which you might the better haue learned thus to vnderstande , if you had remembred that the same Cyprian in his fourth booke of epistles , epist. 5. hauing spoken of certaine famous Martyrs , Celerin , Laurence , and Ignatius , addeth : for these alwaies , you remember , wee offer sacrifices as oft as wee solemnize the passions and dayes of the Martyrs , anniuersariâ commemoratione , with a yearely commemoration . For I am sure you holde that these were not in purgatory , and that therefore these stoode in no neede to haue an oblation and sacrifice of the masse offered for them , or praiers in your sence to be made for them . Yea how can these otherwise be vnderstoode , then of the oblation and sacrifice of thankesgiuing , in the memorial or remembring the godly life and constant Christian death of such ? And so we neither dislike the practise , of such thankful commemorations of the godly departed now , nor deny that of ancient time , for the comfort and instruction of them that were aliue , that it hath beene vsed . And of this offering of the oblation of praise and thankesgiuing for the faithfull departed , very well may and must that be vnderstoode , which vsually you alleadge so much out of the Lyturgies , which you father vpon Basil and Chrysostome . For you know in offering it , they teach you to offer it to God , for those that are at rest in faith : their elders , their fathers , patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles , Euangelists , Martyrs , and for Mary the blessed Virgin her selfe . For I hope , you thinke not all these stand in neede to be offered & praied for , to be eased in purgatory . And yet your praying for the dead , & your purgatory are right Hypocrates twins , they must laugh and weepe togither , they must stand and fal , beginne and ende both at once . I am sure you haue heard of Augustines saying , Qui orat pro martyre , iniuriam facit martyri , he that prayeth for a martyr , iniureth a martyr . And therefore long after , the councell of Bracchar in Spaine , mentioneth onely a commemoration of the dead that die in the Lorde , with Psalmes of thankesgiuing , which it forbiddeth to be vsed for those that kill themselues , or for their faults are put to death . can . 34. Indeede in that councell , which was in the yeare of the Lorde 630. in the time of Honorius the first ( for I speake of the first held there ) I finde mention in the 39. Canon ( which is the last thereof ) not onely of a commemoration of the dead , but of some offering , when that was , or when the feasts of martyrs in their memories were kept , of mony or some other thing for the reliefe of the needy , where order is taken for the receauing of it , and bestowing of it : which either were the free will offerings of the liuing , to testifie their thankfulnesse to God , for the good departure of the dead , or bequests and legacies of the dead , to the reliefe of the poore , & other holy vses , against the staying & detaining whereof , the fourth Councell of Carthage , and the second of Vase sharplie decreed . And it appeareth in Iustinus martyrs second apologie , that euen so long ago , after the communion , there was an oblation of almes giuen for such vses , but he in neither of his apologies ( though therein hee shewe what the forme and maner of the Christians seruing of GOD then was , of purpose ) once remembreth so much as any commemoration then made of the dead in their assemblies . Of such offerings and oblations at the commemorations of the dead . I noted before what the authour of the tractes vpon Iob , commonly fathered vpon Origen , hath saied . Other oblation , sacrifice , or offering , then these two , of thanksegiuing and almes , I cannot finde in any ancient and sound writer , allowed . The more are you to blame ( Master Albine ) that thorow the ambiguity of the wordes , not vnderstoode of your simple Reader , will make him beleeue , that yet , because Cyprian hath these words , that therefore thereby he alloweth of your kinde of offerings , oblations , and sacrifice of the ●asse , for the sinnes of the dead . If there had beene a●●●●ch vse of the Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ , why haue none of the Apostles or Euangelists made any mention of it ? Or neither Christ nor they hauing spoken one word of anie such vse of it , what reason is there , that if there aftercommers should , without all warrant from any of them , that we should be leeue them therein ? Surely whosoeuer he be that should , especially also seeing we cannot finde , how many kinde of sacrifices soeuer God for diuerse occasions in the old testament appointed , that euer he appointed any , or made any mention of any for the dead , we would learne of Chrysostome , euen therefore to say vnto him , you see into what great absurdities men fall , when they will not follow the Canon of the Scripture . Homil: 58. in Genesin . and with Augustine , though he were an Angel , because of a matter of so great importance , he speaketh without warrant either out of the old testament or new , he would boldly hold him accursed . Contra literas petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. But to auoide this , I know , because in a cause so gainefull for you , you will not seeme to bee altogither destitute of Scripture , the bookes of the Machabees , euen to help you at a pinch , in this case , in spite of all good antiquity and trueth , shall be Canonicall Scripture , and Iudas Machabeus fact 2. Mach. 12. must be vrged , not onely as a lawfull fact , but as a president to warrant your offering and sacrificing , to relieue soules in purgatorie . And yet in very deede , when you haue alleadged this fact of his neuer so much , you shall finde your dealing herein , as voide of credit out of the Scriptures of God , as before . For first , certaine it is , that these bookes are none of the Canon of the old testament , as you know well enough , Origen apud Eusebium lib. 6. c. 24. Athanasius in Synopsi . Cyril Hierosolymitanus 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Nazianzene 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Hierom. in prologo Galeato , Gregorius magnus libro 19. Cap. 17. vpon Iob , the councell of Laodicea , and diuerse others , haue determined : whose iudgements are inuincibly confirmed , by the contrariety betwixt the saied two bookes themselues , by the authours crauing to be borne withall , and by his seeming to iustify , in those bookes contrary to the Canonicall scriptures indeede , sundry things . Secondly , let any man read 1. Mach. 7. & . 12. & the 2.4.3 . and 13. and he shall thereby most plainely see , that in those times , whereof those bookes containe the story , there were wonderfull grosse corruptions , directly contrary to the lawe of God , crept in amongst the Iewes , from the Gentiles , and yet securely practised of them . Thirdly , this is to be considered , that neither Iosephus writing the whole story of the Machabees , nor yet the fift Chapter of the first booke , where the same story is handled , maketh any mention of this fact of Iudas . Fourthly , if we looke to his fact indeede , as the authour setteth it forth in Greeke , we shall finde , that the trueth thereof was and is onely this , that he finding two thousand slaine , that tooke vpon them of their owne heads to fight with the Iannites , without commandement of their Captaine , of an ambitious minde to get themselues a name , & that vnder their garments they had things hid consecrated to the Gods of the Iannites , euery man then seeing that that was the cause they were slaine , therupon first hauing called his people together , he exhorted them by that example to keepe themselues from sinne , and to giue glory to the Lord for his righteous iudgement executed vpon them , and to pray that the rest perished not , for that their sinne , be like , hauing in remembrance the story of Achan , Iosua 6. And this thus according to his exhortation done , he made a collection of two thousand drachmaes & sent them to Hierusalem , to offer a sinne offering , which if he did , to appease the Lordes wrath that it should not burst out to the hurt of the rest , as it did against the Israelites , at the besiege of Ai , Iosua the seuenth , for the like sinne in Achan : as it may be hee did , hitherto hee did but well , and with warrant from the twenty one of Deutronomie , and seuenth of Iosua : but here he staied not , but as it appeareth by the authours owne wordes , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , discoursing with himselfe of the resurrection , hee prayed for the dead , and sought to make reconciliation for their sinne , that so they might haue their part in the resurrection of the godlie , for whom very godly hee thought , that there was great hope layed vp . But if hee had remembred , that hee had neither commandement , example , nor promise in Gods booke thus to encourage him to doe , and that the Lord had saied . You shall not doe euerie one that which seemeth good in his owne eies , but that which I commaund thee , that onely doe , thou shalt adde nothing thereunto , nor take ought there from . Deut: 12. he should not haue followed his owne discourse & imagination , thus to haue done without all warrant from the word of the Lorde . In many places of the olde testament , he might haue remembred , that of purpose , the solemnity of burials are spoken of , & yet that neuer there is any mention , either of any such thing commanded there to be done , or remembred to haue beene done : yea that Tobias the elder ( though there be much saied of him to his commendation in burial of the dead in his history ) that yet there is not any mention of any such thing done by him . And it is worth the noting that from the time of Iudas Machabeus , it cannot be proued by any story after , vntil now of very late daies , that any such thing was by any godly man attempted againe . Further yet , how can this serue to breed any credit to popish praying or sacrificing for the dead in purgatory ? seeing the papists themselues confesse , that there was no purgatory before the comming of Christ : & that they that die in deadly sinne ( as it appeareth by the story these did ) go not at all thither , but streight to hell . Lastly , for any thing I can see in the authours words , thorowly considered , it may be saied , for his credit , that he sheweth that Iudas Machabeus did thus , that he did very well & honestly to thinke & hope of the resurrection , & very godly to be perswaded that then it should be very well with those that died godly : but that vpon these cogitations he did thus for these , he doeth not at all iustifie him , but rather shew that therein he followed his owne reason and discourse . And this being thus , all the strength of this place is lost . For an historiographer may and doeth set downe often , aswell the faults , as commendable things of famous men , that they write of . Wherefore to conclude this point , for all this , it remaineth firme and sound that I saied before , they can neither by scripture , nor any sound ancient writer , approue their sacrificing , offering , or praying for the reliefe of soules in purgatorie .

Wherefore to go on , now we are come to examine Origens testimonies , which are two onely here cyted for prayer for the dead by Albine , namely his 12 Homily vpon Ieremy , and his 8. booke vpon the Romans cap. 11. in which places , let them be read neuer so often , there shal not be found so much as mention of prayers for the dead indeede in both of them there is some mention of a purging fire , but as I haue shewed before in the first entrance into this point , when I repeated the words of the authour in these places , none at all of the popish purgatorie . For in the first , he speaketh of that fire that must consume our hay , woode , and stubble , which , hee telleth vs , is God , who is a consuming fire of such things , and in the other he speaketh expresly of the fire and torments of hell , wherein , saieth he , he that would not be purged by the Euangelicall and Apostolique doctrine , reserueth himselfe to be purified . Thus thou maiest see ( good reader ) that which I admonished thee of before , how they proue praying for the deade , by mention of a purging fire : though it be mentioned neuer so diuersly , and farre from their sence , as in these two places it is most euident it is , whereby thou maiest see , how , with out all conscience , they seeke to abuse thee , with fond reasons and ambiguity of words . Belike , though the Scripture saie , in hell there is no redemption , yet Master Albine beleeues by his alleadging the later of these places , Damascenes tale of Gregories getting Traians soule out of hell by praier , and that Saint Frauncis and others also haue done and now can doe the like , or at least , that he and his fellowes haue beene fowely deceiued , that before now made it a distinct place from hell . In earnest let them take heede , whom they haue perswaded hitherto , & doe hereafter , that they go but thither , and that they ( so they will take order they may be well paide for it ) will helpe them to ease there , and out in the ende , that they finde not indeede the popish purgatorie they dreamt of , in the ende to proue nothing else but the fire and torments of hell it selfe , that Origen speaketh of . But to haste to an ende of this point , Chrysostome and Augustine are yet behind , it may be these speake something more directly to the purpose : it cannot bee denied they doe , but the more a great deale was their weakenesse and fault , and neuerthelesse yours euen where it was . Chrysostome is alleadged onely in his third homily vpon the epistle to the Philippians , where speaking , as it is euident by his words , of such as die in their sinnes and infidelity , so that they go to hell , where ( saieth he ) peccata exuere non licet , that is , they cannot put of their sinnes , he exhorteth their frends aliue to mourne bitterly for such , because , they are with the damned all the daies of their life , that so the better they may take heede of the like sinne , so yet to shewe their loue : and in the ende addeth , defleamus istos , iuuemus eos pro viribus &c. let vs mourne for these , let vs to our power helpe these , let vs procure them some helpe , little indeed , yet let vs helpe them . How & what way ? praying for them , let vs exhort also others to pray for them , & without ceasing let vs giue almes for them . Habet res ista nonnihil consolationis , this thing hath some consolation &c. What is this to the great & vnspeakeable good , that , you fansie , commeth by your praiers and almes giuing for the dead ? Yea I wonder how you are not ashamed to quote vs this place for your praying for the dead , seeing you your selues ( as iustly you may ) condemne as not onely fruitles , but as quite vnlawful , all praying and giuing of almes , for such as hee speaketh of . But you will saie , that going on in the same place ere hee haue done , he goeth further , and saieth , that in the celebration of the diuine mysteries , it was not in vain decreed of the Apostles , that ther should a memory be made of the departed hence , they know that great good would grow vtno them hereby : and how can it be , but that all the people and Priests praying and lifting vp their hands to heauen , and the reuerend sacrament laied there , but that we should pacifie God praying for these ; but that which we say now , we speake of them that departed hence in the faith . I graunt these words there follow , but yet the most that these words proue , is , that he thought the commemoration of the dead was instituted by the Apostles : and that the doing thereof at the celebration of the Lords Supper would be very accceptable vnto God , and doe them some good . But in all this , if you vnderstand him aright , here is nothing saied for your praying for the ease of soules in purgatory . For as before he spake of those , that were in hel , in the state of damnation , so he speaketh this of those that were in the state of saluation already , with Christ their king in a blessed estate , and that departed hence in sure faith thereof , as his owne words entring into this matter and concluding the same make it manifest . For all that he speaketh of , that die , or are dead , he deuideth onely into these two sortes , & hauing first taught what is to be done for the wicked , vnfaithfull & damned ones : then he commeth & sheweth thus , what is to be done for the other . And therfore euen by your own receiued doctrine , speaking but of these , you can vnderstand him but of a thankeful commemoration of such , in their praiers . But suppose he made an other distribution of the dead , into bad , good , and meane , as you doe , and that he spake these words of the meane in your sence , what reason is there why you should binde vs to allow of his opinion in this , and that you your selues will not allow , neither of that which he taught before to be done for the damned , nor of that which immediatly after these words he setteth downe of those that die being yet but catechumeni , that is , but learners of the catechism , whom he saith they barred of this comfort and left altogither destitute of all helpe but of one , that is , that almes might be giuen in their name , wherby some refreshing might come vnto them : whereas you saie that Ambrose did well in praying for Gratian , who yet died vnbaptized . Yet this you will say is somewhat , that he fathereth the commemoration of the dead that he speaketh of , vpon a decree of the Apostles . I graunt it is somwhat , & more then you haue heard his ancient , Tertullian , hath done , or any other before him , & yet be it somwhat or more , you are neither somwhat , nor any more nearer your purpose then you were in the beginning . But to conclude with him , though he & 20 more such as he , should neuer so often tel vs that it was decreed by the Apostles , that in the celebration of the diuine mysteries , there should such memorial or remembrance be made of the dead , they must pardon vs if we beleeue them not . For if they would be beleeued indeede in so saying , wee haue learned to say vnto them , as Aug. saied vnto such , as in his time vnder such colours troubled the Church with their own fancies : legite hoc nobis de lege &c. Read vs it then out of the law , the prophets , psalms , gospel , or writings of the Apostles , that we may beleeue it . De vnit : eccles. ca. 6. For euen of Chrysost. himselfe we are taught so to reuerence these canonical scriptures for their sufficiency , that he that cannot proue that which he saieth therby , but commeth in some other way not graunted him , he is a theefe , hom. 58. in Iohan. And therfore he is not to thinke much , if we refuse to credit him in this , which he can neuer proue to be as he saieth , by any sound proofe either out of the scripture or else where . Thus therfore to dismisse him let vs see last of al what is brought vs out of Augustine to this purpose .

Out of him three places are cited , the first is out of his 2 booke de Genesi , against the Manichees , cap. 20. where there is not a word spoken of praying for the dead : onely there ( saieth he , speaking of such as haue not whiles they were here wel tilled their field , but let it be ouergrowen or oppressed with thornes ) that such after this life shal either haue the purging fire , or eternal paine : by which purging fire what he vnderstandeth , it is hard to gesse , hee had so manie variable opinions thereof , as I haue shewed before , and therfore hence no good argument can be drawen , to proue , that he allowed the popish purgatory . I am sure they are not so in loue with this place , that to proue their purgatory hence , they will now teach that such as he speaketh of shall go thither . For how coulde he haue described the worst sort of men more liuely , then he doeth those that he speaketh of . For is not he an extreame bad one , that hath so neglected here the field of his minde , that he carieth it hence men ouergrowen and oppressed with thornes ? Sure such as these , go straight to hell , or else none . In the other two places , it cannot be denied , he both mentions praier for the dead , and in some sorte alloweth thereof , and holdeth thereby good to come to the dead : the places are in his Enchiridion to Laurence cap. 110. and in his booke de curâ agendâ pro mortuis . But both in these same places , and else very often in his workes ( as namelie in the 1 , 4. and 18. Chapters of the later booke , in his 23. sermon de verbis Apostoli , in his 21 booke of the Citty of God cap. 13. and 24. and to Dulcitius quaest. 2 , it appeareth , that herein , and hereabout , in his time , there was great question , some , as the common people , stretching the vse of praiers for the dead euen to the discharging of the worst sort , and some altogither disalowing any kinde of good to come thereby : whereupon somewhat too much caried with a desire to appease the common people , he chose the meane betwixt 2 extremities , which he thought in this case the safest : and so , that he seemeth to teach that they were profitable for a mean sort , neither perfectly good nor extreame bad . And that in this question of the determining the auailablenes of praiers for the dead , he was both greatly caried , by the sway of the opinions of the multitude , and greatly perplexed to finde out , of what sins men might be eased therby , he himselfe most plainly sheweth de ciuitate Dei l. 21. c. 24. & 27. in the first hereof disputing such questions thereabout as he did , & in the other confessing that though he had searched much for that matter , yet he could not be satisfied therein : and who so readeth his booke de curâ agendâ pro mortuis , hee shall finde it wonderful full of doubts and questions about this matter ; and before I haue shewed how variable & vnconstant he was for the purging fire after this life : what a weake and tottering foundation or ground then is Saint Augustines authoritie in this case to build vpon ? But if hee had beene neuer so confident , constant , and resolute herein , seeing hee confesseth as he doeth , that he hath no warrant for it in the scriptures but the Machabees , & that he laieth the custome of praying & offring for the dead as the verie foundation of his opinion in this point , by his owne leaue and rules , we may lawfullie without offering him any wrong , dissent from him herein , as I haue shewed sundry times before . For in his 112 Epistle , most plainely and honestly he saieth , Follow not so my authority , that therefore thou shouldest thinke thy selfe of necessity bound to beleeue it , because I haue saied it , and de vnitate ecclesiae Cap. 10. we must not ( saieth he ) agree to catholicke bishops , if peraduenture they be deceiued , or hold any thing contrary to the scriptures : the reason is , that ( as he saieth ) contra faustum , l. 11. cap. 5. such mens writings , are to bee read , not with necessity of beleeuing , but with liberty of iudging . For onely to the scriptures without gainesaying ( saieth he ) I owe my consent . Epist. 19. ad Hieronimum . This leaue and liberty you take in refusing either him or any other of the fathers in a number of points , where you like them not , and why should not we then haue leaue to doe likewise in this , being able , as we are , to proue that herein he went further , then either he had any warrant for out of the canonical scriptures , or out of any vnforged and vncounterfeited president , for three hundreth yeares at the least , of any ancient father . But when you haue made the most of his speeches and writings you can : you can neuer without doing of him most grosse iniury , make him to allow of your kinde of sacrificing and offering the body and bloud of Christ vnto God the father , as a propitiatory sacrifice for the dead . For de fide ad Petrum Diaconum , Cap. 10. most confidentlie he hath taught , bidding vs to hold it most stedfastly and nothing doubt therof , but that Christ offered that sacrifice to his father himselfe , and that the holy Catholique Church ceaseth not to offer the sacrifice of bread and wine in faith & charity : which must needs be a sacrifice of thankesgiuing and commemoration of the other onelie propitiatorie sacrifice , & not an offering of it againe , as you imagin● for quicke or dead .

Thus at last we haue viewed and scanned all your euidence ( Master Albine ) and for any thing we can yet finde , vnlesse gaine and commodity that commeth rowling in vpon you , by the practice of this point of praying for the reliefe of soules in purgatorie , were a more forcible argument to continue your liking thereof , then anie thing saied and taught , with anie constancie by anie of these doctours , in any of these places , or any where else , to countenance it withall , we might easilie be perswaded , that you would quietlie giue ouer standing any longer in such egre defence of it , as you do . But indeede this argument hath proued so sweete , and strong of your side , that vntill we be able to weaken this , as we haue done the rest , that is , to stop the passage of the comming in of gaine and commodity vnto you this way , we shall neuer put you to silence in this , howsoeuer we preuaile with you in all other points . This is the argument of arguments , the first and last , middlemost & all , that in trueth you haue for this , of any weight . And this we cannot deny to such as you be , must needs seeme a most notable argument . For to make you in loue with it , and euen for the sake thereof alone , to hold on your plea in this cause , purgatory hath so pickt other mens purses , & filled yours ; & so dispossessed others , & possessed you : and praying for soules there , hath so brought in paiments to you , & pilled and poled the heires & frends of the dead , that if you wil speake for any thing , surely you will speake & neuer giue ouer speaking , for this . Iohannes Angelus , a man of some credit of your side , saieth , that the soules that are in purgatory are of the Popes iurisdiction : & that he , if he would , could at once euen empty purgatory : & therfore ( as it should seeme ) by his owne right , your Pope Clement the 6. in his time , by his buls commaunded the Angels to deliuer thence so many soules , as he thought good . But I pray you , this being thus , why neither did he , nor any before him , being so holy & merciful fathers to their subiects & clients , as you pretend they are , take such compassion of the poore soules there , as of charity and compassion to ridde them all thence at once ? The reason was , that this your onely argument of gaine still to grow thereby , might continue from time to time in force . For doubtles it is not to be supposed , that such a noble rase of holy & most holy fathers , would haue stayed all this while , from doing such a wonderfull worke of mercie and Christian compassion , vnles there had beene some such great reason of their doings . Well then , because venter non habet aures , the belly hath no eares , and a minde desirous and greedy of gaine , will neuer be satisfyed , I wil not take vpon me any further , to wrestle against this argument , onely I warne you , that euen in this respect , you be not any longer found , within the number of those walkers , that Paul tolde the Philippians often of , and then when hee wrote vnto them told them of them weeping , which were enemies to the Crosse of Christ ( for they sought their owne and not that which was Iesus Christs : cap. 1. ) For then he wil go on with you , as he did with them . & tell you , that your end is damnation , your belly is your God , & your glory , your shame , because you mind earthly things . cap. 2. And in the meane time , vntill by this warning you can and will learne to take heede , for this argument sake , to giue ouer to plead any more for your praying for the deade , to ease soules in purgatory , amongst an 100. other questions , that hang vndecided thereabout amongst you , I pray you learne to answere this , how it chanceth , that since the light of the Gospel came amongst vs in these later daies , to the detection and consumption of your glorious Antichristian kingdome , we hauing heard before tydings of so many , that apparitions of soules that are troubled there , and would be eased are growen now to gayson and rare . And if you would haue your doctrine thereof run currant , as a plaine and resolute point , I pray you also let vs vnderstand , how it came to passe , not long since , that S. Thomas More , and the Bishop of Rochester , two deepe and profound learned men , and martyrs also of your Church ( as your frends account them ) agreed no better thereabout : For Sir Thomas More held , there was no water in purgatory , because Zachary calleth it a lake wherein there was no water , & the other held there was both water and fire , because of the Psalme which saieth , by water & fire thou hast brought vs to a refreshing : and the Bishop of Rochester held , that their executioners there were the holy Angells , and the other held , that out of all doubt they were Deuils . And vntil you haue learned to answere these our questions , and to reconcile these your owne Doctours , this shall be sufficient to shew , that you haue neither all the doctours , Greeke and Latine , nor all the Christians of the foure quarters of the world , ful and whole of your side in these foure points , as you bragged you had in the beginning of this chapter . And the rather because touching this particuler , and last point , both the vanity and vntrueth thereof , you your selues haue confessed in that some of you ( as Alphonsus by name ) haue writen that the Greeke church could neuer yet be brought to be of your mind for purgatory , nor the Armenians , and that namely , as he saieth because there is almost no mention thereof in the fathers especially that were Greekes , aduersus haeres : l. 8. & 12.

The XXXVIII . Chapter .

ANd if I did not thinke , a a What are the ceremonies in baptisme , auricul●r confession , praying to Saints and for the dead , either all or the most material things of your religion , that we oppugne , or was your prouision onely in a readines for those . that it would be b b You pretend feare of being too tedious , caused you to particularize no more . but lack of sound proofe for any thing that we withstand in you caused you both thus confusedly & s●amlingly to run thorow this , and to passe ouer the rest . too tedious for the Reader , I would set forth the rest of our Catholique doctrine , & the confirmation of it by the testimony c c If you had done this indeed , it had bene somewhat , but it being the onely thing , that of all other you should haue done , and thus to passe it ouer with a brag what you would haue don , but for had I wist , bewraieth the penury of your cause , especially , you not so much as once bragging , that you would proue any of them by the Scriptures . of such a number , of not only doctours , but therewith all holy confessours & martyrs , which haue suffered for our religion , and that haue taught vs , both by word of mouth , and by writing , all that we doe vse at this day , teaching vs to liue and die in it and for it . d d You ground your question vpon a supposall that you could haue beene as good as your brag , which you neuer could haue beene ▪ and therfore at least vntill you had made better proofe of your cunning that way you might haue spared this ●uestion . I would haue you answere me vnto this . Doe you thinke , that they be in heauen or in hell ? I know well , that meere scrupulos●y of conscience will make you not expresse plainely that , that your workes doe teach , and that you will remitte this question to the iudgement of God . But this is not to the purpose , for I doe not demaund of you any absolute answere , as if you had beene in heauen or hell to see it : but this , to vtter in your conscience , what you thinke of those that haue holden , mainteined and confessed our faith ( whom you call Infidels and superstitious Papists ) are they condemned ? If you say , yea , then wherefore was the bloud of Christ shed on the e e For all true beleeuers , and for al such of yours that ere they died got hold of the foundation a right , and yet for you to say as you doe , is no better than blasphemy , for though al dying in the grosnes of popery were condemned , yet it is well and a happy thing that Christ died . Crosse ? it had beene better that he had neuer suffered , if this were true . If you say , that God would be mercifull to them , because their errour proceeded of ignorance , and so , that he wil haue pitty of vs , because of ours . But I know , that you will say , that we are nowe vnexcusable , because that wee doe refuse the trueth that you doe preach . By the selfe same reason our ancesters can alleage before God no good excuse , for asmuch as they doe make no account of the receiuing of such ministers as you are , & that haue preached the like gospell that you doe announce vnto vs f f These things follow not at al , for so the foundation be held soundly , euery errour that a manholdeth liuing or dying condemneth not . S. Hierom & all the Christians of his time are then condemned , because they would not receaue the Gospell of Vigilantius , who did euen as you doe preach , that we should not allowe the exposition of the Doctours , nor honour the reliques of martyr ; S. Augustine is likewise condemned , because he wrote and preached against the g g Aerians you mean I think . Arrians , who taught as you doe , that it is an offence to praie for the dead . And to be briefe , if that which you doe preach ought to be called the gospell & true word of god , since the Apostles time there hath bene h h I would men would & could read them , as you wish for them , I am sure they shuld find them to be far more with vs than with you . neuer a Christian doctour in the Church : for they haue all taught the contrary to your forged gospell , as euery man may see , that will take the paine , but to looke in their workes , or to read those places that are quoted by me , and diuers others , that haue confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities . Let them then that haue any eies , beholde the hazard that yee runne into , and so many others throughout the world , which followe your opinion . i i Euen thus do you with vs . If one should come to accuse an other of falsehoode , and that before hee bee assured of this matter , wherewith hee did seeke to atteinte the defendaunt , would not one thinke his matter verie great , or his knowledge verie small , to run headlong into the danger of that crime , which , if he could not proue , he should be condemned for himselfe . What then shall become of you , O most simple sheepe , which seeke with fained arguments to condemne , not one or two , k k These are but words , feare them not : but seeing the man had nothing else , he thought good belike to haue enough of them , and those swelling enough . but all the Christians and Catholiques that haue beene in this world since the passion of Christ , the which haue refused and reproued your doctrine as hereticall , & haue taught vs this that we hold at this day ? But now to answere vnto that that was mentioned a little before , & that which a number of your flocke haue told me , when I haue conferred with them , which is , that l l We doe not hold that ignora●ce wil excuse any , that dye out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale . the errour of our predecessours was not imputed vnto them , forasmuch as these good simple people went to worke after the grossest sort , thinking to doe well , and that as then they did not vnderstand well the trueth , which is now brought to light through your gospell . I say , that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion : m m You would seeme then belike that your sim●le and ignorant papist● , haue all beene great and profound clarkes . for before some of them died , they had forgotten more than euer you haue learned , for all that , that you knowe you haue learned it of their bookes ( or stollen it , to saie the trueth ) interpreting both their workes & the scriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning . And although it were so that they had al erred , your coloured excuse of simplicity could auaile them nothing , for the word of God would accuse them . If n n I am glad to heare you cite this testimony to p●oue , that ignorance of the gospell shall not excuse any , but why plead you then sometime , that ignorance is the mother of deuotion ? the Gospel ( saith * * 2. Corinth. 4. S. Paul ) had bene hidden , it hath beene hidden to those that haue perished , the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded : them if that those vnto whom the trueth hath beene hidden haue perished , wherefore doeth your excuse serue them ? This being true , as it is most like , I meane , that they haue not erred , nor that you onely shal be saued , & they all condemned . To my iudgement our auncestours with al their simplicitie did neuer erre so much as your disciples doe , to follow such masters , o o This brag hath beene vsed so often without proofe , that now it is stole and lothsome . as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught & mainteined these 1500. yeares , to mainteine those heresies , that haue bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone , & now are called vp againe by Martin Luther , Caluin & his fellowes .

The XXXVIII . Chapter .

THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter , by that which I haue saied in answering of the former , hath appeared ( I hope ) sufficiently already : but whensoeuer it shall please you , or any for you , to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader , to bring vs forth this number of Doctours , confessours , & martyrs , that you here boast of , and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words , or other good euidence , that they were liuing & dying , so on your side , as you here pretend , I doubt not , but one of vs or other , will easily make it euident vnto the world , that you are far greater in words and shew , then you are in deedes and trueth . You would haue your reader beleeue , that onely to auoide tediousnes to him , you haue forborne by their testimonies liuing and dying , here to confirme all the rest of your doctrine , and all that you doe vse at this day : but alas your owne conscience telleth you , that indeed not onely the tediousnes of it to your selfe , but the impossibility of it altogither , drew you to be glad to vse this prety shift & piece of cunning , to salue your credit & your causes with him . Considering therfore what already hath beene answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter ( in whose euidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest ) & what otherwise vpon sundry other occasions , in answering of your booke , I haue set downe out of them directly to proue the contrary to this , that you say you could proue out of them ; your question , with vpon the supposall of your brag here to be but a trueth , you haue inferred & put forth ; whither these doctours , confessours & martyrs that you talke of be in heauen , or hel , is childish , friuolous & needles . For you know well enough , that there is neuer a doctour , confessour , or Martyr , of any credit and worthie so to be accounted , for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in , but ( though in some of them , we doe not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you ) that yet we holde , that forasmuch as not onely they held with vs the foundation , and other principall points of Christian Religion , wherein you are contrary both vnto them & vs , but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them , kept them in the rest from the grossenes & impiety that you are therein fallen into since ; that they were and are ours and not yours . And therefore , we comfortably assure our selues , that ( they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did , though they as men , builded thereupon some wood , hay , & stubble ) yet the Lord sound the meanes by the fire of his spirit , and affliction , so to descrie the same vnto them , & to consume al that vnsutable building in them , ere they went hence , that we neede not thorow any such scrupulositie of conscience as you imagine , feare to giue our iudgement or opinion of them . For wee feare not their being in hell , for being on your side , but in that they were of ours , as they were and as I haue saied , wee christianly perswade our selues that their soules are in heauen . And you , fearing belike for all your cauilling , that touching these ancient doctours , confessours , and martyrs that this would be our answere , because you knew it might iustly be so , you were content quickely to giue ouer the pursuit of this question , and to aske vs this , what wee thinke in our conscience , of those that maintained & confessed your faith & Religion , whither they be condemned or no ? And to feare vs , from saying they be ; vpon the necke of this , you aske vs , if it were so , why then was the bloud of Christ shed ; affirming confidently , that if this were so , that then it had beene better that Christ had neuer suffered . This indeede I doe know to be one of your common bugges , whereby you seeke to make the simple affraide , either to forsake you , or to ioyne with vs : saying when you see men about thus to doe , what , will you condemne all your forefathers ? And to this end with manie words you amplifie the goodnes of the forefathers , & what an vnchristian cruelty it is to condemne all our ancient forefathers ? Before I come to the answering of which obiection , I cannot but tell you , that in setting downe so bluntly & boldly , as you haue , that if they that confessed and maintained your Religion be condemned , that then it had beene better that Christ neuer had died , you haue vttered grosse & intollerable blasphemy . For though none such should be saued by the death of Christ , thousand thousands both haue bene and shal be saued therby : & better it were that al such , as you meane , should for euer be condemned , then that this speech of yours had any trueth in it . But to answer this your obiection , taken from the dangerousnes of condemning forefathers , because by the name of them you keep men , as you doe , in your Romish and Babilonical captiuity : first the reader is to vnderstand , that an argument taken from forefathers simply , without distinction , but as you doe this of yours , in matters of Religion , is not good . For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord saied thus vnto his people , walke not in the preceps of your fathers , neither obserue their maners , nor defile your selues with their idols . And Dauid saieth , Ps. 78. Let them not be as their forefathers were , a disobedient , & rebellious generation &c. And the like warning the people had , Psal. 95. Zach. 1. & Ier. 11. Whereupon Peter telleth the Christians , to whom he wrote , that by the bloud of Christ , they were redeemed from the vaine conuersation of their fathers , 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had beene good , when Christ came , & sent his Apostles abroad , to preach the gospell to al nations : our forefathers in all nations then did ill , in receiuing the doctrine of the gospell . For their forefathers for some 1000. yeares before , had held , professed , & mainteined heathenish paganisme . And it seemeth that many of the heathen then , vsed this very argument of yours , to keepe men in paganisme still . For such an obiection I read , both made by them , & answered by Peter as it is writen , Clementis lib. 5. recognitionum ) by Ignatius , ad Philadelphenses : & by Augustin in quaest. veteris , & noui testamenti quaest. 114. By this reason , saied Peter ( as Clement reports it ) If a mans father be a thiefe , or a bawde , the child must be no other . To such as saied they would beleeue no other gospell than they found their forefathers had , Ignatius answereth ; my antiquity is Iesus Christ , whom not to obey , is manifest damnation . That which was before , saieth Augustine , the Paganes say , cannot be bad . To whom he answereth saying ; as though antiquity may preiudice trueth . For thus might murderers , wantons , adulterers , & other lewd liuers , defend their wickednesses ; because they are old , & haue beene from the beginning , saieth he . So that both scripture , reason & the ancient fathers themselues teach vs , that it is not alwaies safe , to continue in the Religion , wherein our forefathers liued & died ; and so easily we may perceiue , that this your argument , how common soeuer it be with you , is of no force . For it hath beene the old argument of Pagans , & doubtles is at this day , the chiefe argument that keepeth Turks , & Jewes from yeelding to the Gospell , least then they should condemne all their forefathers .

But as your argument is naught , so your antecedent is false also . For albeit that our Religion differ from yours , as it doeth ; yet farre is it from vs , that therefore we condemne all our forefathers . For , first we know , that from Christ , wel near 1000. yeares , they then that professed Christ , for the most part , liued & died , holding the foundation , & many other principall points of religion with vs ; & therfore of their saluation , we doubt not . Secondly , euer since , howsoeuer a number fell away , from the trueth & seemed wholy to be yours , yet we are perswaded , & we know it to be true ; especially since Petrus Vald his time , who was 400. yeares ago ; there haue beene great & knowen multitudes , openly ioyning with vs , in the chiefest points of our religion , & dissenting from you , as I haue shewed before . And when there seemed to be fewest , yet we beleeue , that that God , that could & did preserue vnto himself , in the litle kingdom of Israel , in such a miserable time , asking Ahabs time was . 7000. that there , had not bowed their knees to Baal : that the God , I say , euen when popery seemed to haue preuailed most , according to the comfortable visions , that Iohn had to that end , Apoc. 7. & 14 , yet had preserued vnto him , in al the kingdomes , and prouinces of the world , infinite numbers , that yet neither in forehead nor hand , would beare the marke of the beast : & of all these we hope well also . Thirdly , euen concerning such of our forefathers , as seemed to the world , to be of your religion , we thinke a number also are saued . For euen amongst them , there are .3 . sortes to be considered . The first sort are they , that liued and died in all your grosse and erronious opinions . The second are they , that though a long time they seemed to liue in them , yet ere they died , God caused to see the vanity thereof , at least concerning your doctrine of iustification ; & so through the sight of their sins , in his mercy , he brought them to die , protesting that they trusted not to be saued in part , nor in whole by their owne works , or by any other meanes , but onely by his free mercy , through Iesus Christ alone . The third sort is of them , which though they were yours for some outward ceremonies , that they were contented to vse with you , & in that they held some other fond opinions with you ; yet neuer ioined with you indeed , in seeking for saluation , little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their trust in , that way ; but only looked for & beleeued , to attaine vnto it , for that which Christ had done once for all for them , in his owne body . The first sort are they only of whom there is feare . But of that number , we hope there haue beene but few in comparison that is supposed . Of the other two sorts , we haue a confortable hope , because we know our God is most ready to receiue a sinner , whensoeuer he vnfeinedly repenteth , Ezech. 18. &c. And S. Paul hath taught vs , that they that hold the foundation Christ Iesus , aright ; though through ignorance , or other infirmity , they builde thereupon , hay , and stubble , yet in the end , they may be saued , 1. Cor. 3. Whereby euery one , may easily perceiue , that we hope that most of our forefathers , by one of these means , or other , haue bene saued ▪ & that for them , the bloud of Christ was shed vpon the Crosse , & that to the sauing of infinite thousand soules , though neuer a one of them that liued and died , fully of your religion in al points , be saued . And therfore very bad , and blasphemous is your saying , as I cannot but tel you againe , that then it had beene better that he had not suffered at al. Hereby also you may see , that we ground not the hope that we haue ( as you imagine ) concerning the saluation of our forefathers , vpon their ignorance ; but vpon that faith that they liued and died in , or died in at the least , to be saued solie , and wholie , fully and freely by the suffrings and obedience of Christ . For howsoeuer ignorance may excuse de tanto , yet it cannot de toto . That is , howsoeuer ignorance may lessen the offence , yet it cannot make an offence , no offence . And though we read , that he that knoweth his masters will , and doeth it not , shal be beaten with more stripes ; yet we read not , that hee that knoweth it not , and so doeth it not , shall not bee beaten at all . But rather we reade , that the Lord saieth , Psalm . 95. They are a people that erre in their heartes , for they haue not knowen my waies , wherefore I haue sworne in my wrath saying , surely , they shall not enter into my rest . Indeed , in that that you haue more meanes now , to reclaime you , from your errours and heresies , then euer your forefathers had , these many years ; we thinke in trueth that it will be far easier , at the day of iudgement , for them , then for you : in that you haue ioined wilful stubbernes , to your other sins . But , whatsoeuer come of it , this is most certaine , that whosoeuer worshippeth the beast , & his image , and receiueth his marke , in forehead , and hand , and so dieth ; ( for of such there the holy Ghost speaketh : ) the same man shall drinke , of the wine of Gods wrath , and be tormented for euer , in fire & brimstone , before the holy Angels , and the Lambe , Apoc. 14. And this must stand , that he that beleeueth not in the Sonne , is condemned already ; because he beleeueth not in the onely begotten Sonne , Iohn . 3. How many soeuer this sentence hath within the compasse of it , thus it shall go with them . This also we may not , nor cannot deny , but that there , by beleeuing in him , is meant beleeuing in him aright : and that we do not vnlesse we count his name , the only name wherby we come to saluation , Act. 4. and that so , as in him , we thinke & beleeue , that al things are already prepared , Mat. 22. & therfore doe not suffer our selues , by any perswasion , to be brought , to ioyne any person , or thing , with him in iustifying vs before God , Gal. 5. Let men therefore take heed of liuing , or dying , without this true Christian faith , whatsoeuer they do , for without this , we are not in Christ ; and if we be not in him , wee wither , and come to the fire in the end , as fruitles and dead braunches , Iohn . 15. And indeed , if we thus haue not him , wee can neither come by that life that is in him , Ioh. 5. neither can we possibly escape damnation , which is prepared for al them , in the iust iudgement of God that doe not aright imbrace him , Ioh. 6. In this case therefore , in the name of God , let vs not looke what our fathers haue done , but what they should haue done . And let vs learne rather to imitate those forefathers , yea , though they were neuer so few ; that haue liued and died in this faith ; then those others , that haue both liued and died , out of it . For we may assure our selues , that neither ignorance , imitation of forefathers , nor any thing else , wil or can exempt vs , from that condemnation , that is due to such as liue and die , thus in this foundamental errour , or heresie .

It is too too childish that you infer of the condemnation of Hierom and August ▪ and al that were in their times , by our religion : in that you saie they preached against Vigilantius , and the Arrians ; against the one , for his not allowing the exposition of the Doctors , and refusing to honor the reliques of Saints : & against the other , for that they taught it was an offence , to pray for the dead . For first , you see , we doe not condemne any man , for euery error ; nay , we condemne none that liue and die holding aright the foundation ; though otherwise , they haue had their errors . And secondly , though it were graunted , that Vigilantius & the Arrians taught these 3 , points , & that we are like them in these ; and that we hold them for things well done , and taught by them ; whatsoeuer either Hierom or Augustine wrote against them ; must it needs therupon follow , that either we , or they were deceiued , or else that Hierom & August . and their partakers be condemned ? Nay we are not so hastie to pronounce sentence of condemnation , of them or any other , for such errors : neither would you be so hastie to gather such conclusions , if you were wise . For you know well enough , that we make not these matters such , as that either we thinke all must be saued that holde the one way , or all condemned , that hold the other . But in trueth you doe charge both Vigilantius and the Arrians with more , then I thinke you wil proue in hast . For neither doe I read that Vigilantius was such an enemy to the exposition of Doctors ; nor the Arrians charged with deniall of praier for the dead ; neither thinke I , euer did you ; and therefore it should seeme here , you had no quotation . Againe , you iniury vs herein ; in that you would make your reader beleeue , that we refuse all exposition of the Doctors ; which we neuer did . This onely we doe , as they themselues haue taught ; examine their iudgements , and expositions by the Scriptures , which when we haue done , if we finde them therewith to agree , we esteeme of them , as it becommeth vs , and as well , and more then you . But this is your fashion , vpon your owne head , without proofe , to pinne vpon them that you finde spoken against , by some ancient fathers , what you list , to make them like vs . If Vigilantius taught that neither such relickes of Saintes , as you make store of , oftentimes , nor none at all , are to be honoured as you now honour them ; it was no errour at al in him ; and if it had beene that he had held but so , I am fully persuaded , that rather Hierom would haue commended him for it , then otherwise . But indeed your grosse honouring of them , was not then so much as thought of . Vigilantius his fault ( as it seemeth by Hieroms charging of him ) was , that hee woulde not allowe , that there should such cost be bestowed vpon their tombes , and burials , or that any such estimation , or reuerend regard should bee had of their graues , and sepulchers ; as then , of loue towardes them , and to stirre vp others to imitate them , beganne to be vsed . Wherein , if he went too far , wee ioine not with him . For wee very well allow , that there should be a decent , and comelie buriall of them , and we esteeme of their graues , and other certaine monumentes of them , as of thinges that appertaine to the deare children of God . But with you , to tie vertue either to the place of their buriall , or to any such thing that they left behinde , and that in such grosse maner as you haue done , wee account it both folly , and blasphemous impiety . It may bee , when you named Arrians , you meant Aerians , in whom you oft tell vs , that to pray for the dead , was condemned for an heresie . But if that were your meaning , wee tell you , that Epiphanius writing of them , saieth flatlie ( howsoeuer they were so accounted of some ) that praier for the dead , hath no manifest ground in the Scriptures , but rather leaned to the fashion and traditions of men ( as both of this and almost of all the pointes in controuersie betwixt you and vs , Soto contra Brentium , & Lind. li. 4. suae panopliae towards the end thereof , two great champions of your side , haue also plainely confessed ) and so long you shall neuer be able to proue it an heresie . Againe , here you must be admonished , that euery thing that an heretique is reported to haue held , is not by & by heresie . For many sound opinions often times , such haue retained , and by that meanes , haue the easilier preuailed to seduce men , by their errours . And therefore you and your fellowes also , doe your readers wrong , in making them to thinke , that because such an hereticke , & such an hereticke , held this and that , which we hold , therfore we are heretickes . For if you should speake to the purpose , you should first proue the opinions that wee hold to be heresies , and then shew vs that they were held and condemned , in such and such : or at the least that the things that we hold were in them heretofore condemned for heresies .

But to be briefe , you say if our Religion be the trueth , them there hath beene neuer a Christian Doctour in the Church , since Christ : for all haue taught the contrary &c. These are but your words , and the falshood of this , I haue made to appeare in sundry points already . And I would to god , the poor simple people could read their works indeede ; for then howsoeuer it please you here to brag to the contrary , they should and would perceiue , that you haue in this wounderfullie abused them . For they should see that for the most and greatest questions , betwixt you and vs , they are flat on our side : & in those things wherein they seeme most to fauour you , that yet euen therein , there was and is very great difference betwixt you , and them . Wherfore , your vehement exhortation , that men should not follow vs , to condemne all Christians that haue beene since Christ , which taught alwaies yours , & condemned ours , as heresy ; is sutable to the foundation that is , nothing but false & vaine . In like maner where you bring vs here , as men ( to auoide your argument of the condemnation of forefathers ) that are so driuen to our shifts , that we haue nothing to say for appeasing the people , but this , that their errours shall not bee imputed vnto them , for that they did holde them of simple ignorance , hauing no better instruction : in confuting this excuse , you might haue spared your paines . For you may remember , that otherwise I haue blunted the edge of that argument . And for my part , I most willingly acknowledge that ignorance shall not , nor cannot exempt any from condemnation , that know not ( if they be of yeares , and otherwise capable of knowledge ) the Lord Iesus Christ aright to their saluation . For I know it is writen , that Christ shall come in flaming fire , rendering vengeance vnto them that know not God , and which obey not the gospell of Iesus Christ , 2. Thes. 1. and that howsoeuer by strong delusion vnder Antichrist , men shall be carried to beleeue lies ; yet in the iust iudgement of God , because they receaued not the loue of the trueth , they shal be damned , for not beleeuing the trueth , 2. Thess. 2. But you say , some haue vsed that excuse of them , in conference with your selfe . I warrant you , not simply to excuse such as liued and died , in an Antichristian faith ; that is , looking to be saued , not onely through the mercie of God , in Christ Iesus ; but by other meanes also , which can not stand together with a sound faith in Christ : but such onely , as either amongst the fathers were preserued from euer falling into this foundamental errour ; or hauing fallen into it , had growen to detest it , & to imbrace a faith , seeking , and finding in Christ alone , the full cause of their saluation ere they died : of which two sortes , besides those whom God did cleane preserue , from the infection of popery , as hee did the 7000. in Elias his time , from the idolatry of Baal ; euen in the greatest florish of poperie , the Lord , no doubt of it , had infinite numbers . For I my selfe in my daies , haue knowen diuers , in whom , the leauen of popery , hath beene so rooted , that notwithstanding neuer so good meanes haue beene vsed in their health and prosperity to reforme them , yet they haue perseuered in an opinion , that they should either not be saued ; or that partly they should be saued , for their own merits : who yet in time of sickenes , or some other misery , hauing therby beene brought as it were , before Gods presence , and so to see the infinitenes of his iustice : haue straight renounced all confidence in their owne works , with wonderful detestation of their owne blasphemous and foolish conceit , that euer they trusted in them , or in any thing , but onely in Christ Iesus ; who , now when they knew them selues , they would confesse , was he that alone must saue them , by that which he had done himselfe , or else it would neuer be . And if the Lord thus mercifully reclaimed some that wilfully , and peeuishly a long time , had resisted the trueth , shining as it doeth now ; why should wee not much more conceiue , that hee shewed that mercy vpon a number of our forefathers , who dwelt in that errour , of simplicity and ignorance ? That therein , & in a number of things else , they erred not ; you say , but you shal neuer be able to proue . Neither can you vpon our holding that they did erre , conclude , that either wee onely are saued , or they al condemned . For I haue shewed how a number , yea infinite numbers of them , might be saued , this notwithstanding . As for your iudgement , that they neuer erred , so much as our disciples ; it is not material . For you are no competent iudge in this matter . And the reason of your iudgement ; that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held , this 1500. yeares , and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies ; is a thing which by begging after this sort , at our hands , ( though therein , you be neuer so impudent , and shamelesse a begger ; as that way , in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared ) you shall neuer get . And therefore set your hearts at rest ; your words though they be neuer so lowde & stout , shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes . You must therefore proue your words true , and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof ; ( which you shall neuer be able to doe ) before we may yeeld vnto you , that you haue any right at all to this .

The XXXIX . Chapter .

IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God , this maketh me beleeue , that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them , the which is . * * Luc. 16. The children of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light : To proue this true , wee see this dailie experience : for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine , he will not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three , as hee will doe the bondes of a whole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine . But you nor your disciples haue not done thus , but rather the contrarie . It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God , beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit , and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church , a a We build not our faith , religion , or hope of saluation of these mens credits , but vpon the credit of the vndoubted worde of God , set down in the scriptures , which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside , or contrary vnto them . and not to hazard the hope of your saluation , putting it into the hands of Luther , Zuinglius , Oecolampadius , and three or foure other such pelting merchantes , which haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge , Geneua & Losane , which one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes , as their predecessours haue beene before them , the which after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques , b b Beware of dogs , Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker , the best is , hee is but one that barketh , to bite & hurt , he hath small or no power . and gained some of their soules for the deuill , they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit , so that at this daie , except that it be those that reade the ancient histories , no bodie else doeth remember , that euer they liued in the world . You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise , but your credit can hardlie be good before God : c c Will you neuer haue done with this bare & vaine brag ? Shew this but once to bee true , and then we yeelde , and then brag and spare not . for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church , which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day , all the Doctours of all the vniuersities , all the Empires , Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde , which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine , that you call Papisticall . And if you saie , that you will not trust men , but the verie word of the Lord , we agree to the like , that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture , but we varie about the interpretation , for you interpret it after one sort , and we after another : you expound it after a new sort , and the Catholicke Church doeth follow d d When it commeth to the trial it will be found , that our interpretation rather then yours , hath continuance from all the sound ancient Doctours , and the vndoubted Apostolicall ●raditions . the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours & traditions which you haue forsaken : or to saie the trueth , your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie from the old flocke , at the departing from the which they haue beene al scattered abroad , some following Luther , some Caluin , some the Anabaptists , & so forth : for the which the Popes & kings , & others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement , for as much as while e e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept , you haue come & sowedweeds among the good corne . Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie , what excuse can they make before God , that wilfully follow your steps ? We confesse , that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast & whole , as touching our religion , but very weake and sickely f f Amend them for shame . as touching our maners : that is to say , g g But your wounds , sores & sicknes is grown so desperat , that you will account none such , but them that wil tel you , you are sound and in health , where you are most sicke . full of sins & vices , attending some sage phisitions to heale vs , & good pastors to keepe vs , casting out the chaffe from the corne , I meane , cutting off those abuses that are offensiue ; not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue , but vnto him that doeth threaten them for the carelesse liues of their sheepe , & so to continue in that h h Proue this once some of you , or else for shame neuer say it , almost in euery leafe , for lack of matter as you doe , ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles .

The XXXIX . Chapter .

In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words , & stout begging the maine question : that your Church is the true , & ancient Catholicke Church ; that al the Christians great & small , since Christ haue bene flat on your side : that you are the only men , that follow the sound sence of the scriptures , deliuered vnto you , by the ancient doctors , and true pastors of the Church : & that we are but two , or three in comparison of you ; sprung vp yesterday , & such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout , both of credit , and honesty . This bladder ful of nothing but winde , is sufficiently I hope , prickt , and let out already , by that which I haue saied in sundry places before . Howsoeuer , I hope the reader is not so simple , as that ( seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes ; ( as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side : and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes , without proofe ) he wil any whit be mooued therewith . And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted : the greatest stuffing that it hath , is onelie of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated . Indeed , if in al your life , you could proue but halfe so much , as confidently here you set downe , then you were a notable fellow indeede , and then truely we would striue no longer with you . But in the meane time , seeing we know your speeches are such , as you can neuer proue , and that we are able against you , both to proue the falshoode of yours , and the trueth of our owne ; blame vs not , if wee esteeme not your words .

Yet , lest you should saie , that these likewise are but words in vs , as the former haue beene in you ; ( though I see no reason to the contrary , but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours , were sufficient confutation thereof ) I say , and will proue it , that you shew your selfe a man past al shame , in writing here , as you doe ; that all the ancient Catholicke Church , which hath continued visible , since the comming of Christ , vnto this day ; al the doctours of all the vniuersities ; all the Empires , kingdomes , & priuate states , throughout al the world , are against vs : for they haue al receiued & honoured that doctrine , that we count papisticall . For first , such is the newnes thereof , as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already , of this booke ; that none of all these , for sundry . 100. yeares , were once euer acquainted therwith : yea that diuers of your assertions , which are the very principallest of your opinions : as namely , your dotcrine of Transubstantiation ; of your Popes being in authority , aboue generall Councels ; and of denying the cuppe to the lay people ; are not yet of 400. yeares age , and continuance . And it is notoriously knowen , that in the daies of Gregory the 9 , about the yeare of Christ , 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression , offered by the Pope , to that Church ; that the Greeke & Easterne Churches , departed quite from the Church of Rome , and neuer since ( though it hath beene oft attempted ) could be brought to hold communion therewith againe ; insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent , you haue condemned them , for schismatical and heretical Churches . And these Churches , as it is noted in an ancient record , in the Church of Herford , differ from yours , at the least in 29 articles . And they holde yours excommunicate , and an Apostata Church vnto this day . And vnlesse your reading be very small , you cannot be ignorant , that Math: Paris : writeth , that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons , shortly after this breach , shewed , that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece , the Pope had not three , that then held communion with him : and that all Antioch , and the Empire of Romania , to the gates of Constantinople , was gone quite from him . There is also extant in print , in ancient record , an Epistle writen , about seuen yeares after this breach began , in the yeare 1237 ; by one Germanus , Patriarch of Constantinople , vnto the Pope ; wherein not only he laboureth , to make him see that the occasion therof was , that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches , then he should ; but amongst other arguments to persuade him , to see his folly , he sheweth him , that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues , but that al so the Aethiopians , Syrians , Hiberians , Alani , Gothi , Charari , with innumerable people of Russia , and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians , held communion with his Church of Constantinople ; and so by occasion of this schisme , had forsaken felowship with the Roman Church . And the Cosmographers write , that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople , reacheth so farre , that all Greece , Misia , Belgaria , Thrasia , Walachia , Moldauia , Russia , Muscouia , the iles of the Aegaean sea , and Asia the lesse , bee vnder the same . It is also reported by authours of good credit , that at this day , vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch , Alexandria , & Hierusalem , and vnder the other , in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa , there be infinit numbers of Churches , and Christians , differing from yours , and ioining with ours in manie thinges . So that Churches also both in the East , North , and South , and that of very great amplitude , within the time , that you speake of , haue professed Christ , and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most , or many at the least , of the pointes , for the which , your religion is counted of vs Papisticall : in all which there haue beene some doctours , vniuersities , Empires ; Princes , and priuate men ( no doubt ) since Christ , before you wrote , that neither honoured , nor receiued your papistical religion . Yea , but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe , you might haue remembred , that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes , there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose , and in his greatest ruffe , many doctours , vniuersities , and some Emperours , kings , and priuate estates , that haue neither receiued , nor so honoured your religion , which we cal papistical , as here , you would beare your reader in hand . For euen in these parts , and within the compasse of these times , haue bene ( you know ) Wickliffe , Hus , and Luther ; & vniuersities & kingdomes , good store , haue had both your religion & Church , in defiance long before you wrote . He that readeth but the stories of Philip , & Lodovicke the last , ( French kings ) of Henry the 4 , & 5. & of the 2. Fredericks , the 1 , & 2 , ( Emperours ) and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England , and of 2 , or 3 , of his successours ; he shal easily perceiue , that much within the compasse of time , that you speake of , both Empires , and Kingdomes , with their Emperours and Kings , haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion , that you here bragge of : or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse , that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures , that haue so cursed and banned these men , as they haue , and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be , by warre , shed to hamper them . These things considered , euen children may see not onely the vanity , but grosse falshood , of these your wordes . For howsoeuer either here or else where , in this your booke , you would cause your reader to beleeue , that your Romish Church , is the catholicke Church of Christ , euery one indeed may see , that in trueth it is but a particuler , and a petty Diocesse , in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ . For the reader must vnderstand , that the Church of Christ is called catholicke ; first , because the religion that shee imbraceth , is that which hath beene at al times , & will be to the end , the true religion of God ; & secondly , because the same Church in respect of the members therof , especially since the calling of the Gentiles , is not to be limited or shut vp , within the compasse , of any particuler countries , but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations , and in al countreyes , where it pleaseth the Lord . In neither of which sences , can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick . For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced , & was in possession of for 4000 years & more : neither are the bounds of the Romish Church , vniuersal ; but euen as the Donatists shut vp the Church in Africk , so do the Romanists within the compasse of a corner of the world , in comparison of al the rest , which they cut of , from the communion of the Church . And yet there is nothing more vsual with Master Ioh. de Albine , in this his book , them to labour to countenance the Romish Synagogue , with these two things , antiquity & vniuersality . But as for vniuersality , it may appeare by that which I haue saied , & by that which euery one may easily conceiue , if he compare them the professe Christ , whom they reiect as heretickes , & schismaticks , with them that receiue & honour the popish religion ; that it is now , and hath beene a long time , rather with than , whom they thus n , them with themselues . And as for antiquity , most certaine it is , that the Turks , the Nestorians , & the Circumcisers , may a great deale more iustly , brag therof , than they . For the Turkes haue beene in possession of their full Mahometisme , these 900 years , & the heresie of the Nestorians hath continued these 1200 , years , amongst the Georgians . And the heresie of them that ioine circumcision with baptisme continueth yet , in Africa , in AEthiopia vnder Presbyter Iohn , & hath these 1500 years : whereas popery is not so old as the youngest of these , in that almost al the points therof , wherfore it is so called , haue beene deuised and brought in since , the youngest of these began . But put the case , that popish religion were ancient indeede , and had the greatest part of the world to follow it : must it needs therfore follow , that it were the trueth , & the best way ? No indeed . For who can deny that Gentilism or Paganish idolatry , when the Apostles were sent first , to preach the gospel to the Gentiles , was very ancient ? For it had welnigh continued then , from Noahs f●ould vntill that time . And neuer was popery , of so manie nations so vniuersally receiued , as that was . And yet who is so simple , but he knoweth now for all this , that that was a way that led to destruction ? And if the mystery of iniquity beganne to worke in the Apostle Paules time , and yet Antichrist the father thereof , was not quite to be abolished , before the brightnes of Christs second comming , as he plainely teacheth , 2. Thess. 2. it being withall prophesied , that the whore of Babylon ( Antichrists right patterne ) should sit vpon many waters ( that is , rule ouer many people ) and cause the kings and nations of the earth , to be drunk with the wine of her fornication , as it is Reuelat. 17. who seeth not that euen Antichristianity may be countenanced with great shew , both of antiquity , & vniuersality , as certaine and good tokens , as the Romanists count these two , of the true Church of Christ . Which things considered , howsoeuer it pleaseth Master Ioh. de Albine here to iest at vs , as men like to the children of God in nothing , but in this folly , that contrary to the fashion of the wise children of the world , we chuse rather to trust a few , then many ; we are contented therein , to be like them stil , and so rather to chuse to enter into the Arke with 8. persons , Ge. 7. so to be saued : then to refuse so to doe , with all the world besides , & so to be drowned . And I would aduise him for al his wisedome , to be such a foole , as rather with two or three , to flie out of Sodom , with Lot Gen. 19 ; then with all the rest to tarry behinde , and to be destroied with fire and brimstone . For howsoeuer he count this folly , Christ who is wisedome it selfe , hath charged his to striue , to enter in at the straight gate , though few go the way , & many the other broad way . For that is the way that wil lead vnto saluation , whereas , the other leadeth to destruction , Luke . 13.

But the men whom he nameth , Luther , Zuinglius , and Oecolampadius ( though they be men whom we thinke wel of , and whose memories shal be famous in Gods Church ( for al his blinde prophecie to the contrary ) when the names of a thousand such as himselfe is , shal bee either buried in obliuion , or infamous for their resisting of Gods trueth ) are not the men vpon whom wee build our religion . These we account such as in these later daies , God vsed to very good purpose , to reuiue , & further to publish , and make knowen the doctrine of trueth , then it was when they beganne first . But the men that we trust and leane vnto in this case , are those holy men of God , and such like , as Saint Peter speaketh of , 2. Pet. 1 ; which spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost : & so haue left the will of God , for our full direction vnto vs , in the holy Scripture . And these , the ancient Christians and Doctours for six hundred yeares after Christ , and infinite numbers since , euen downe vnto the times of these , whom he here nameth , as I haue shewed in the fourth Chapter of this booke , and else where , togither with vs , haue followed . And further then these writers of the canonical scriptures , haue led any of these , we doe not , nor meane not to follow them . You shew therefore , Master Albine , but the nature of your Romish spirit , in your confident aduouching without all proofe , that these men you name , gained soules to the Deuill , and that they haue so fold their honesty & credit , that few now know that euer they liued in the worlde . For besides your rash and vncharitable iudging of them you speake that which your owne heart tolde you was a lie . For , you could not bee ignorant , but that these mens names are knowen to thousands , that neuer read their stories . But you say that you agree with vs in not trusting of men , but in trusting to the very word writen ; but you and we vary about the interpretation : for we interpret it after one sort , and you after another , we after a new sort , and the Catholicke Church , whereby wrongfully stil , you meane your owne ) doeth follow the olde exposition of the ancient doctours , and traditions , with we haue forsaken . Herein , you say more , then either you or any of your fellowes wil stand to . For when it commeth to the point , the greatest champions of you confesse , that a number of the things . that are in controuersie betwixt you and vs , are without the compasse of the scripture : and therfore least they should be quite reiected , they vnder prop them with the rotten prop ( which yet they labour to make to carry some shew of strength ) of traditions , or of the word vnwriten . And in the other point , concerning interpretation ; that therein we vary , it is true ; but that the variety is , as you say , it is false . For we neuer refused the exposition of the Catholicke Church , nor to vse the helpe of her sound and Catholicke Doctours , or traditions agreing with the word writen as helpeth the better to attaine to the right sence therof by . Indeed , the interpretation of your new Apostata Church of Rome , her false doctours and traditions , because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues , we reiect . Otherwise , we are ready alwaies to proue our sence , thereof , to agree with the ancient Church & her doctours , better then yours can . And as for the variety amongst vs , of interpretations , which you charge vs withal ; sure we are , it wil neuer proue so great , as hath beene , and is amongst you , or as is betwixt your interpretation , and that which was of them , 900. yeares ago : and therefore , for any thing you haue yet saied , you your selues are the rouing sheepe from the ancient sheepfold ; you are they which whiles men slept , haue sowed cares amongst the good corne : and which are the sheepe sicke in religion , as well as in maners ; and not we . And therefore they that haue ioined with you , whosoeuer they haue beene , are like at the day of iudgement , to smart for nothing more , then for taking part with you . And so to conclude this Chapter , whatsoeuer hitherto , you haue gained at the handes of the simple , by these your vaine and swelling wordes : you shall hereafter loose ten times as much , amongst them that are wise thereby .

The XL. Chapter .

I Know wel , that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage , saying , that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases , you haue seperated your selues from the common flocke : but if you doe consider my first words , they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly : for I haue already saied , that although wee be sickely & weake sheepe , as touching our doings or maners , yet , in regarde of our faith ( thankes be to God ) we are safe & sound , keeping stil a a Indeede you ! haue saied , and saied it againe & againe , but yet you haue neuer proued ●t , nor 〈◊〉 . that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued from the Apostles , without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe : for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time & the place , to the honour of God & edification of our neighbours b b Your antichristian religion is that , that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you , as wee are bidden , Reue. 18. vers. 4. & therfore , if you did seperate your selues from our kinde of liuing , to lead a holy solitarie life , as the holie Heremites & Saints haue done in times past , forsaking the conuersation of the common people , to liue in contemplation , without seperating them selues from the communion of the Church , in the which they haue beene baptised , & had receiued their faith , your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect , as now they are damnable , considering how you forsake , the common tabernacle , within the which both you & we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration , & our spiritual food altogither . And to the ende that no body run astraie from the right path that he should follow , the good Christian ought to fixe in his minde this resolution , I meane to serue God , & to liue in the catholicke faith , commonlie or priuatelie for when there is any question put , as touching the life , the cōmōn are , c c This is a right popish glosse , that is , a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning . as * * Mat. 7. Christ doth say , doth lead one to perdition , & the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation . But if one speake of religion , the contrarie is verified for the common way is the waies of health , & the priuate waie is the path of damnation d d And this is an other . The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme , had a regard to this , when he praied God , to teach him his waies by the religion , & his pathes , by the maners and customes .

The XL. Chapter .

YOu were deceiued , in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners , or your difference in ceremonies , for the defence of our seperation from you . For we haue alwaies protested , that it was especially , your Antichristian doctrine , that hath caused vs , to account that Reuelations . 18.4 , Go out of her my people , that ye be not pertakers in her sins , and that yee receiue not of her plagues : directly spoken to vs , concerning your Romish Synagogue and religion . And therfore is it , that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue , because we find , that you are apostataes , & long haue bene , from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ , and from the truly commended ancient Roman Church it selfe ; with whom we cannot growe in common , vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship . And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you , we know was more necessarie , and is more commendable , then al the seperation , of Heremites , or any other of your caged birdes , howsoeuer you could haue allowed that , better then this , of ours . But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you , because that we receiued , many of vs , baptisme at your hands . What ? I trust you are not so meane a diuine , as to thinke it alwaies best , for men to continue communion , with them in all things , that haue baptised them ? You know , I am sure , that the Arrian heretickes ( their heresie spreading it selfe , so broad as it did , and continuing diuers 100 yeares ) and other heretiques , as well as they , baptised many , and yet I hope you wil not thinke , that they might not after , forsake their heresies , to turne to the truth ? You know , many did forsake them , and came to the trueth , & yet , it was counted an heresie , to baptise them againe . The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you , you tel vs that you haue continued , without adding and diminishing , in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first , and since from hand to hand , in all integrity , hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors , conueighed downe vnto you : and so we had both baptisme , and all our other spirituall foode with you . These are but wordes , the euidence of the thing is to the contrary ( as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before . ) Proue this indeed , and we will repent vs of our departing from you , & most ioifully & willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe . I like very well your counsell , that euery good Christian should fully resolue , and determine to serue God , and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith : but then I adde , that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued , what , and which is that true Catholicke Faith . For his direction in this behalfe , how to discerne , which is the right way to heauen , and which not ; and consequentlie , which is the true catholicke faith , & which is not : you teach him , that when there is any question put , as touching life , then the common way , as Christ doeth say , Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition , and the narrow to saluation : but in religion it is contrary : whereunto you saie , Dauid alluded Psal. 24. saying : shew me thy waies O Lorde , and teach me thy pathes : by waies , meaning religion ; and by pathes , maners . Where learned you this diuinity ? If you looke vpon Christs wordes well , you shall finde , that hee counted the waie to heauen , straight , as well in respect of religion , as life : and that there is nothing more vsuall with Dauid , then indifferently without any such nice distinction , to vse these wordes waies , and pathes , both in respecte of the one , and the other ; you might easily perceiue , if you were anie thing conuersant in his Psalmes : looke vpon Christs time , whereunto he had an especiall eie , when hee vsed these wordes , and you shall finde , that true religion was a thing more geyson , and rare then in the worlde , and had fewer followers ; then an holy and a vertuous life . For euen many of the Pharisees , and Philosophers made great shew of that ; & that therefore , to leade vs rather , to thinke that in respect of Religion then maners , he had vttered those wordes ; immediately thereupon he addeth , beware of false Prophets . And as for Dauid ( if your argument be grounded vpon that that he placeth the word waies , in the first place ; and pathes , in the later ) if you marke him well , you shall oftentimes finde him , to inuert that order in the Psalmes . And Psalme 109. because you should plainly see , that he referreth waies , as wel to maners , as to Religion , he saieth : take from me the way of lying , and teach me the way of thy statutes . And considering that you cannot be ignorant , that Idolatry and Paganisme , in Christs time , was more common , then Christs Religion , & therefore had 10000. that tooke it for true religion , in comparison of one , that tooke Christs so ; I wonder that you euer durst thus expound Christs wordes . For by your exposition , he tolde them , that it was better for them , to embrace paganisme , then his Religion : for that was the common beaten way , and his was but a small bie-path . Againe , in Liberius his time , when it was an hard matter , to finde one true Catholique , for an 100. Arrians : insomuch that Constantine saied vnto Liberius , that he alone fauoured Athanasius , Theodor. Eccles. Hist. lib. 2. cap. 16. by your rule , Liberius did well , in that , seeing Arrianisme to be the common waie , and his ancient Religion , that then was but as a bie-path , wherein few walked ; that he yeelded his subscription , to Arrianisme . Indeede it should seem , that this Pope Liberius was of your minde , & so long you care not I am sure , as that you may haue a Pope on your side . Wel yet , if you had but remembred that the Turkish religion , is at this day , & hath beene a long time common to moe , then your owne religion is , or euer was : it might haue staied you from teaching men , to measure religion by the commonnes of it , or multitude of followers , least you should haue so persuaded them to Turcisme : But it may be you had rather haue it so ( seeing in comparison therof , ours is but a narrow path wherein few doe walke ) then that they should follow vs . If your skil in interpreting of the scriptures , & in prescribing rules for the direction of men , be no better , then you haue shewed in this ; you may very well be a Doctour , and great master , in your blinde and ignorant kingdome of Popery : but in the kingdome of Christ , there is little hope , that there will euer any great reckoning be made of you .

The XLI . Chapter .

NOw to turne to the partition that we haue vpon the 34. and 37. of Ezechiel , and vpon the tenth of Iohn ▪ it is plaine , that we are the flockes of weake and sickelie sheepe : and your disciples are the sheepe that runne this waie and that waie astraie : those that are our a a Howsoeuer that title is due vnto them , they take it not vnto them . ill Prelats take vpon them the title of Mercenarii pastoris , but vnto your ministers the titles of deuouring wolues , may be applied b b Onely of such as haue made shipwracke of conscience . without anie scrupulositie of conscience : for you watch to none other intent , but to make the sheepe runne out of the folde , and to deuour them , because that our pastours haue not taken care to keepe them . And although they be not excusable , aswell for their silence , as for their naughty liues , I see not your Patriarchs & zealous manifesters amende much themselues , the faults that they finde in vs : for besides the true and certaine experience that wee haue had by the triall that we haue seene to our cost in this Realme , within these fiue or six yeares c c Penned then by such , that had taught their pens to write lies . I haue read full many a golden Legend of your sacred martyrs and holie Bishops , which doe not altogither redound to the honour of your pretended reformed Church . And among others Theodore de Beza Caluins successour in the Pontificate seat of the holy city of Geneua of whom such things are preached abroad , that if the one halfe of them be true , d d Neither wil ●e , nor any of vs , so compare our selues . he is scant so good a man as S. Iohn Baptist . And because I would not haue you to mislike them for their religion , I wil not alleage , to verify this , any Catholick author , but some of Luthers successors your first founder , who taught you to write so learnedly ( I would say railingly ) against the church of Rome . Tilemanus Heshusius a minister of the Lutherans , in the * * Jn his booke of the true body of Christ in the sacrif writen in Latin . book that I haue alreadie noted , doeth openlie accuse the saied Beza of great infamy , that he did not onlie content e e Heat of contention made the man too credulous , and so beleeued your malitious parasites , that most impudently and falsly haue forged these things of him . the fancie of his mind , with leading a luxurious & a licentious life , & to staine his vow with a bilt of adulterous loue , but that that is worse , hee himselfe hath set forth in writing all his lasciuious acts , the which ( saieth hee ) f f His lasciuious songs and Epigrams he made and published whiles he was yours , whereof he hath publickly in printe testified his repentance & mislike since he was ours . he hath song in sacrilegerime to the Instrument , to manifest his sinne to the whole sight of the worlde . And in that verie booke hee doeth say , that Beza , who as I haue tolde you ) is a Bishop of the holie Cittie of Geneua , is an infamous monster , whose naughtie life any man may reade set forth by him selfe in his owne Epigrams : and notwithstanding ( saieth he ) to heare him speake , you would thinke hee were Saint Iohn Baptist , for he can talke of nothing but of his holie life . This same very minister in the booke where he writeth these things , he doeth laie to g g The more shame for him , for it is a monstrous and notorious slander . Bezaes charge that he tooke with him to Geneua another mans wife , without the knowledge of her husband , whose name was Candida . h h Will an argument from one to al follow with papists ? and yet this one not proued such an one neither . Thus seeing by the verie testimonie of those that are our enemies , & that are your brethren , as touching the seeking to ouerthrow the Catholique church . The principall pill●●s of your church are bawdes , thieues and adulterers , ruffins : i i And yet what is more vsuall with papists , then to cry out against our ill liues , though your liues be such , as you haue confessed . why doe yee not , first begin to reforme your selues , to this intent , that when we see , that you haue taken the blacke out of your owne eies , we maie be the better content , that you should spie the moate in ours . Remember that our sauiour saith in the gospell , that the phisition ought to cure himselfe .

The XLI . Chapter .

WE are very well contented , seeing you so willingly confesse it , and that so often , that you be counted weake and sickely sheepe ; and your pastours , hirelings . But the other part of your speech , that we are the sheepe , that are runne astraie from Gods sheepfold , and our pastours are the rauening wolues : wee most constantly , in respect of our Religion , deny it : howsoeuer , with you , wee must be inforced to confesse , that in respect of maners , there is fault , in both . And therefore how boldly soeuer , you affirme this , seeing still you keepe your olde woond , in hauing nothing to proue it , but your owne bare wordes , our deniall of it , counteruaileth it well enough . You though you haue graunted your selues , to bee neuer so sicke in maners , and haue taught vs , that Religion must not be stained , and thought to be blemished , for the lewde liues of some , of the professours ; yet your stomacke so ouerflowed ( it seemeth ) with choller against vs , and namely against that reuerend father Theodore Beza ; that you could not bee quiet , vntill you had cast it vp , to ease your stomacke a little . You first tell vs , that by experience , and reading of the stories of our Martyres , you are able to say so much of our lewde liues ; as that wee haue not much amended the faults that wee finde in you . And then you come to that , where you long to bee , to discredit Beza : to whose charge , you say sundry heinous crimes , and that vpon the report of Tilemannus Heshusius , a bitter and intemperate enemy of his , for the question amongst vs , for the maner of Christes presence , in the Sacrament . To the first , this issue I dare , and doe ioyne with you in ; whatsoeuer you haue reade , or seene of vs , that we haue read and seene more monstrous and horrible sinnes ▪ in the liues of your most holy fathers , and Popes of Rome , then you are able to charge all that euer professed our Religion withall . Was there euer like sauadge crueltie amongst vs , one to another , as I shewed before , was amongst them , about Formosus ? Their pride hath appeared most monstrous , in treading vpon Emperours necks , and otherwise infinitely , in misusing of them ; as I haue at large shewed Chapter sixteenth . Their detestable sorcery , nicromancie , and poysoning one another , to come to the Popedome , aboue the yeare one thousand , by Siluester the second and his followers , set out by Benno a Cardinall , in the life of Hildebrand , is such as we neuer reade the like amongst the barbarous heathen . Their ambition to come to that place , and their insatiable couetousnesse , when they haue got it , hath passe , for thereby Christendome hath beene more troubled , with Schismes and warres ; and Christian kingdomes otherwise , haue beene more impouerished , for these fiue or sixe hundreth yeares : then by all other quarrells and occasions incident whatsoeuer . Finallie , for their filthy life , I am perswaded , that there were few worse , in Sodom and Gomorrha , then sundry of them haue beene . For Sixtus the fourth ; in the yeare one thousand foure hundreth seuenty foure , builded stewe houses of both kindes : and not long after , Paul the third , registred 45000. whors , that paied him monethly such a pension , that by the yeare it came to 40000. duckets and more . And it was no small argument what filthy fruits , their forced single life , both had and was likely to bring forth : that in Gregories time , in certaine fishpondes , there were found 6000. childrens heads . These thinges your owne Croniclers , you know , doe make so cleare , that now euery one almost can name , and describe them , as they haue deserued . For mine owne part , I am euen loath to defile my paper , with the names of such filthy wretches , as a number of them haue beene ; and seeing the notorious euidence of the thing is such , that you your selfe doe not here deny , but that diuerse of them , haue beene lewd liuers , and therefore , therein , you haue left them without defence , it is needlesse either to trouble my selfe , or my Reader , any further , with the rauing in such a filthy dounghill .

To proceede therefore , you must remember , that you may neither draw argument from your writers , of the liues and deathes , of our Martyrs , nor from Heshusius an enemy to Beza , either against out Martyrs , or against him . For the report of an enemy you knowe , is worthily suspected as partiall . And as for that which Heshusius obiects to Beza , he had it from Baudwin and Bolsacke , and other such impure and filthy enemies , and Apostataes : who to win credit again with you , when for their misdemeanours , our Church had cast them of , cared not , what to write , against Caluin and Beza , though they knew it to be neuer so starke a lie . To whom , Heshusius ( through heat of contention , caried to a desire , to deface his aduersary , with whatsoeuer hee could ) giuing too light credit , as the maner of men is to doe but too too much in such cases , he wrote as he did . As for his Epigrams , wherewith , he chargeth him , they were made when he was but a youth of 16. or 17. years olde , published by that he was 20. then with the great liking of your selues . And all this was , before he was of our religion , euen whiles he was one of yours . And as he was yours , when he made them , so since he was ours , he hath diuers times himselfe , published his harty repentance for the same : and that in print , as in his preface before a tragedy of Abrahams sacrifice , and in his preface before his poemes and epigrams , with thirty Psalmes of Dauid , reuised and corrected , and else where in his workes . And therefore for those , the discredit is rather yours , then ours . But if he had continued in your side , if he had gone as farre as euer did any , not onely in writing filthie poemes , but also in Sodomitry , and whoredome it selfe ; all had beene well inough . For of such , you haue had good store , and yet in good credit with you . For besides that diuers of your Popes , as namely Clement the 8 , Paul the 3 , & Iulius the third , were all notoriously infamous in the stories for their most filthie life : Iohannes Casa your Popes Legate and an Archbishop in your Synagogue wrote a booke in the praise of Sodomitry , printed in the yeare 1549 , at Venice , which booke since , some of you , to shew what liking you had of it , haue newlie published , beutified with most execrable and filthy pictures , to set out that sinne withall . And Petrus Aloysius notwithstanding that most monstrous , and impudent Sodomitry of his committed by force , in the sight of his men ; ( as both Vergerius & Sleidan report out of certaine Italian stories ) vpon the body of Cosmuscherius bishop of Fane , a man then , of 30. yeares olde at the least ; was deare and highly esteemed in the eies of his filthy , adulterous , and incestuous father Pope Paulus the third . And for the other point , touching Beza his wife , certaine it is , that she was an honest woman , & of good report , when he maried her , and since alwaies Christianity hath behaued her selfe ; as becommed an honest matron● , for any thing that I euer could either heare or reade , worthy of any credit , to the contrary . And who but they that haue made a shipwracke of all shame & honesty , would euer haue broched such a monstrous vntrueth as this , that he ranne away with her , shee being an other mans wife , to Geneua , her husband yet liuing ? Beza himselfe , in that preface that I named last of his , protesteth not onely the falshood of this , but saieth further , that if any mortall creature can iustlie touch him , with the least and lightest suspition of adultery , hee refuseth no seate of iudgement ▪ And if there were any ground of trueth ●n this , is it likely that this matter would neuer haue bene prosecuted against him in no court of France , or elswher , he hauing so many enemies ? Nay , we may be sure that if there had beene any trueth , either in this , or in any such thing now saied against him , hee had heard of it at Poysy . One Papist ( as Parsons a father Iesuite ) telling the tale , saieth , shee dwelt in Kalender streete ; and Frarin an other , in his railing oration , saieth , shee dwelt in Harpe streete : if Daniel were aliue and sate in iudgement , these fellowes , agreeing no better then the two wicked iudges did , in their accusing of Susanna ; were like to haue ( and well worthy were they ) the iudgement that those two wicked iudges had . But in the meane time , with patience we must possesse our soules committing our cause to God ( who one day wil be auenged of such lying and flaunderous tongues ) and that neuer looking for other , but that the Deuill , as he hath beene a lier , from the beginning , and a false accuser of Gods seruants : so he will continue , and shewe himselfe in his instruments , vnto the worlds ende . Though you haue no other ground , but the report of an enemy , which he gaue forth vpon the report of most malicious persons , and otherwise diuers waies infamous , for all this your diuelish slaunder of Beza , which euidence you knew well enough is starke naught : you yet proceede to your conclusion that he was such a man ; yea , that thereby wee may see , that the principall pillers of our Church , are bawdes , thieues , and adulterers , as confidently as if your euidence had beene most strong . Wherein , your fault is not onely that your argument holdeth not , taken from no better grounds , against the particuler man himselfe ; but that also you reason from the fault of one , to all the chiefe pillars of our Church : and so you put a great deale more , in your conclusion , then was in the premisses , which in reasoning is an intollerable fault . And if a man should reason in like maner , Pope Iohn the 12. was an adulterer : Iohn the 13. was slain committing it ; Iohn the 18. put to death , & both his eies put out , by the means of Gregorie about it ; pope Clement the 6. caused to be poisoned ( as some write ) Lodouick the Emperor ; Siluester the second , was a notable coniurer , Vrbanus drowned fiue of his dearest Cardinals : ( though your owne Cronicles testifie these ) therfore al your Popes , the verie heades of your church , were such ; would you allow of such an argument ? I am sure you would not , & yet hath it an 100. times better ground , and reason in it , then yours . As yet therefore for any thing you haue saied , the beame is in your owne eies ; and so you are not fit persons to go about to get the moate out of ours , before you haue cleansed your owne better .

The XLII . Chapter .

YOV that can saie so well , that one ought to liue according to the scripture , and that you will by it reforme vs , why doe yee not beginne with your selues , to giue vs the a a We doe● & yet when we haue done what we can , there wil be some amongst vs whom you may too iustly charge with these and other sins , because alwaies there will be some hypocrites and time-seruers , but seeing we doe by our religion condemne such vsages , & those that embrace our religion in sincerity , condemne these sins and absteine from them , neither we , nor our religion are to be charged with them . better example . From whence come so many kinde of vsuries & excessiue interests , as you doe vse ? You call our church abhominable and adulterous . He that is among you without sinne , let him cast the first stone . You doe abhorre our idols ( as you tearme them , talking of our images ) how commeth it to passe then , that some of yours should come so neare vs that are Idolaters , as to robbe our Churches , and to carie awaie the images and reliques , and to go and sell them in other places ? But now to make an ende of this discourse , although it were so , that your works were the best of the world , yea , whollie without spot or sin ( as some of b b If any so affirm , we renounce them , they are none of vs . you doe affirme ) yet were not they sufficient to moue vs to change our Religion , nor to forsake that that our forefathers haue taught vs : for although it be so , that our sauiour Christ was as iust and as innocent as anie can be , hath beene , or euer shall be , yet neither his holie life , nor the Scriptures that he did alleadge , to proue his comming by the authoritie of the Prophets , nor the testimonie of S. Iohn Baptist : all these things togither were not sufficient to perswade the Iewes to forsake their old lawes , and to receaue the Gospell , without the testimonie of the great c c Neither would they beleeue , when hee had wrought his miracles , no more would you , if we should . miracles that he did in their presence . He doeth confesse this plainly , where hee saieth : if d d Ioh. 15. And so he saith , if I had not spoken vnto them , they should not haue had sin , but now they haue no cloake for their sin . v. 22. I had not done in their presence the works and miracles that neuer any had done , they should haue no sinne . This sentence is most notable and worthy to bee grauen in the hearts of all Catholiques , to assure their consciences which are troubled with such diuersitie of opinions . For although it were so , that you , my masters , were the honestest men of the worlde , sent from God to teach and preach a true doctrine , yet should we be excusable before God for not receauing of your commission , euen as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our sauiour Christ , e e It was expresly prophecied , that when the Messias should come , he should worke such works , and therefore it was necessary , that he should work them , and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men : the like is not prophecied , that preachers of the gospel should do alwaies , & therfore this is required at our hands , without all reason . And yet therefore we haue not more priuiledge but lesse , than Christ . if he had not done so manie miracles . For we know no cause , why you should be more priuiledged then Christ . And seeing that you haue shewed nothing to verify it this waie , and that the Scriptures , make no mention of your vocation , nor you shewe no miracles , & that your liues are at the least as ill as ours : f f Thus to threaten you we may boldly & without shame , because we are able to proue our doctrine by the scriptures , to be the same , that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles . what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced , as to threaten vs with eternall damnation , if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine , the which is so full of discords and diuisions , that one maie easilie gather by this , from whence it came , and whither it doeth leade one , although yee haue nothing in your mouthes , but the Gospell and the word of the Lorde ? And as g g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine , shall finde the Manichees , to whom he speaketh , farre like● you then vs . S. Augustine saied vnto your semblables , Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio . h h I would you would go on with Augustine and saie , if that be found with you , it is more worth then al the rest , and that you would be contented to try that , by the scriptures , as he was , and then you would sure , so many of you as haue any grace , quickly ioyne with vs . I saie no more at this time , but that I beseech God to drawe you as neere to vs , as you are farre from vs , and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Christ , the which , both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken .

The XLII . Chapter .

THere is no question of that , but that euery one is to begin first to reforme himselfe : and the Lord giue both vs , and you grace , effectually so to doe . But if neither side should call vpon the other for reformation , vntill the one side were growen wholy cleare of sinne : you know well enough , that then they must neuer doe it . For what company and society of men euer was there , but therein was some bad , as well as good ? As Adam had an Abel , so had he a Caine . There was an Ismael , as well as an Isaac , in Abrahams house . And Isaac had an Esau , as well as a Iacob . Amongst the eight that were saued in the Arke , there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom , one that looked backe . And amongst Christs 12. Apostles there was a Iudas . Yea , Christ hath taught vs , by the parable of the good seede , and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field , but that euen vnto the haruest there wil be a mixture alwaies , of bad with good . But you charge vs further that amongst vs , there are many kinde of vsuries , and interests ; and that though one way , we care not for your images , yet we loue them so well an other way ; that we haue robbed your churches of them . Whereunto , my answere is , that we cannot deny , but there are too many amongst vs , who by such vnlawfull meanes , seeke to enrich themselues ; and that there are too too many profane , and carnall men , that haue our religion in their mouthes , who by their lewd conuersation , dishonour the glorious gospell of Iesus Christ : & we are most hartely sory for it , and dayly pray vnto God , for amendment thereof . But this we must tell you , that we preach against al sinne & impiety whatsoeuer ; and namely , against vsury and al tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such thinges as you talke of . And our Religion , and the lawes in our common weale condemne and disalow such dealing , & therefore we are wronged , that in these things , we generally , or our religion at al , should be charged . Surely many of our vsurers & extreame dealing men amongst vs , are either men of no Religion , or yours , rather then ours : neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greatest credit , that in those common weales , vsury lieth dead and buried . Sure I am , your Popes haue beene for a long time , the cunningest and vnreasonablest vsurers in the whole world ; in that they haue sold their palles , their lead , and other their hallowed ware , which are indeede trifles , and thinges of no valewe , for such summes of money and gold , as they haue .

You flatly slaunder vs , in saying , that there are some of vs , that affirme , we are wholy without spot or sinne . For we both detest that opinion , and count them that should holde so , euen worthy to be detested for their so holding . Yet you say ; if it were so , that ought not to moue you , to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers . What a sound ground of Religion , forefathers without distinction is , I haue shewed sufficiently already . In which point I would alwaies haue the Christian to learne , to distinguish , betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers , the Apostles , and their successours in doctrine and life , in the primitiue church ; and the later forefathers ; and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further , then they haue followed the former , and then the danger of this dart is auoided . And that it is reason , we should follow them no further , we may learne in that Paul himselfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ . But you haue a further reason , not to be moued from your Religion , for our life , were it neuer so Godly ; because Christ , though he was without sin , and confirmed his doctrine , both by the ancient scriptures , and Iohn Baptists testimony : yet he saied , that if he had not done in their presence , the workes and miracles , that neuer man did before him ; they had had no sinne , Iohn 15.24 . For hereof , you gather , that you may securely , whatsoeuer we say vnto you , or howsoeuer we liue , refuse vs and our Religion ; and continue in your owne still , as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation , and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles . For you know no cause ( you say ) why we should be more priuiledged then Christ . This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I answered it . Where I haue shewed you , amongst diuers other reasons , that there was this especiall reason , that Christ should worke such miracles as he did ; to proue himselfe the Messias : because expressely the Prophets had prophecied , that he so should when he came : which reason you cannot shew , why now wee should work miracles . For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Thess. 2. and by Iohn , Reuel. 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon , shew onely , that the Lorde would doe it , by the spirit of his mouth , in the preaching of the euerlasting Gospell . That therefore is it onely , that we are to approue our selues by , to be the men , that the Lorde will vse to that purpose . And yet herein we take not vpon vs , greater priuiledge then Christ . For we account that an especiall priuiledge of his , that he was so to confirme his doctrine by miracles ; as that , after the confirmation of it , so by him , & his Apostles ; and the recording of it in the new Testament , as it is ; it should thenceforth stand so firme , that it should be an intollerable signe of incredulity ; amongst them especially , that pretend they reuerence , and receaue the scriptures , as you would seeme to doe : euer to require miracles more , to confirme the same doctrine by . You were not best therefore to perswade your selues in this sort , the howsoeuer it be with your religion otherwise , yet you shal be at the least without blame , for your not receiuing of ours , because we work no miracles . Deceiue not your selues . It is not with you now in respect of vs , and our doctrine , as it was then with the Iewes , in respect of him ▪ and his . Then , that he was the particuler person of the Messias , & that therefore he being come , the ceremonies of Moses law , should cease , and giue place to his sacraments &c : was a thing to be proued , & that by miracles ; because it was before prophecied : whereas now those things long ago , haue beene sufficiently confirmed , and therefore , we preaching vnto you no other doctrine , but that , so already confirmed ; and requiring no further to be credited , then we can so proue our doctrine ; especially , seeing the prophecies concerning these later daies , shew rather , the Antichrist and his Chaplaines shal come , and seeke to preuaile by miracles , then the Lords faithful pastours : you haue no such reason , as they had , nor indeed any at all , to require miracles at our hands .

But you say vnto vs , as Augustine saied vnto the Manichees , contra epist. Fundam . cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio : with you there is no other sound , but promise that you haue the truth . Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow , and you are answered . For he addeth ; which yet if you can make appeare , is so cleare of your side , that it may not be doubted of : is to be preferred , before all those things , that otherwise holde me in the Catholique Church . Be you of this minde once with Augustine , and then learne this one other lesson of him , do vnitate ecclesiae , contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis , sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari : I will not haue demonstration made of the church , by humane documents , but by the diuine oracles . And so say vnto vs , as he saied there vnto Petilian ; let vs seeke the Church , and so discusse our cause by the scriptures : beholde , they are common vnto vs both ; beholde , there we haue knowen Christ : beholde , there we haue knowen the church &c. Take this course once with vs , and I doubt not , whatsoeuer you brag to the contrary ; but we shall thereby be able , to iustifie both our vocation , and Religion ; and to make it appeare , that we haue not onely a bragge of trueth , with you and the Manichees , but the very trueth it selfe . And this being proued , them you must yeelde with Augustine , that it is to be preferred , before all other outward thinges whatsoeuer , that haue kept you hitherto , in an other Religion , and church : yea , then you must confesse , notwithstanding all your obiections otherwise against vs , of nouelty , paucity , iars in opinion , and whatsoeuer else : yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vs , in receauing of this trueth . Wherefore vnlesse you will let all other bie matters go , and enter once into this question with vs , in earnest ; whether your Religion or ours be the trueth ; and for the triall thereof , will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound , and alwaies vsed rules of interpreting them ; colour your refusing thus to doe , with what colours possibly you can , you too too grossely be wray the badnesse of your cause : and euidently shewe , that you onely seeke shifts , hoales , and corners , to escape as long as you may , the discredit therof . And your owne frends will they , nill they , shal be inforced to see the same .

You conclude with prayer , that we may drawe as neare you , as we are farre from you : and that we may turne to the flock of Christ , the which , both to your hurt and our owne ( you say ) we haue forsaken . Insteede of Amen , to yours , I beseech the Lord of all mercies , and father of our Lord Iesus Christ , that it would please him , of his infinit goodnes and mercy , euen for his deare sonne Iesus sake ; to open the eies of your mindes , and so to touch your hearts , as that you may haue grace , with vs , to come out of Babylon , and to leaue that garish whore of Rome , with all her abhominations , and so to ioyne with vs , in the true communion of Saints , and fellowship of the trueth , and spirit , that both you and we may dwell togither , as brethren , in one house ; agree and growe togither , as members of one body ; & rest togither , as sheepe of one flocke ; vnder one father , God almighty , & vnder one head , & shepheard Christ Iesus ; through the mighty working of the holy Ghost , to Gods glory , and our owne euerlasting comfort . Amen .

FINIS .