REader , I am compelled to make a Preface to the following disputation , by a double law . The one is , perpetuall custome vsed in this case , from which I may not vary ; the other is , the matter it selfe : some things ( in our present Opponents ) are transcendent , and belong vnto the whole matter , in such an vniverse , and common manner , that I could not answere them in any one particular passage : yet , it behooved me to giue thee satisfaction in them .

Our present Opponents doe seeme to triumph , as if the cause in question were cleerly theirs , so as , even we our selves at the first sight might seeme vnreasonable , if we thought not so too .

They leade vs with huge mountaines of contumelious reproaches , and in conclusion , they esteem vs no better then to be Either laught , out or despised : So as , they account Their depracation and defence , a thing condiscended vnto in courtesie : for themselues they haue another note , Instructers they are , and their Treatises are to giue Instruction . If you will know the reason why , they tell vs also : In them , There is a spirit , and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them vnderstanding . Wherefore , they dare and doe provoke , even Cato himselfe , to come in , and see , and censure , what they haue written and done . If you desire to know why they challenge to themselues these high prerogatiues , as belonging onely vnto them , they will not let you bee ignorant . Great men ( say they ) are not alwayes wise , neither doe the aged vnderstand Iudgement , therefore I said , hearken to mee . Which reason is vtterly naught , vnlesse all are fooles but themselues .

Wise men doe vse both their eares , and I hope thou wilt doe so too , especially in a cause of this high nature , and consequence . If thou wilt doe so indeed , I dare assure thee , that , thou shalt finde , that they haue not vttered one true word , to their profit , or our hurt : for the matter it selfe , I must referre thee to the body of the disputation , for things common thereunto , I will in this Preface performe my promise : and I will begin with the matter that concernes our selues .

We defend the faith of our Church , subscribed vnto by all ours , yea , even by these our present Opponents , and will they laugh vs out , and aespise vs for that ? Is it their curtesie to deprec●te , and defend themselues against her . We propound the question in her termes , and in a single , simple or categoricall Proposition . We explicate the termes of that question , in the words wherein our Church hath done it before vs , and whereto these our Opponents doe consent and agree . We conclude that question , in the same full syllogisme wherein our Church hath concluded it , and not varied , come short , or exceeded any one of her words . We further proue every part of that Argument , that is , or may be questioned ; by the expresse word of God , or by a necessary application of the expresse word of God . We defend that Argument of hers , against all opposers : and finally , we reduce every Argument brought against her into true forme , and shew what part we deny , and giue the reason of such deniall , and that in true forme of art : and must we needs be laught out , and despised for t●a● ? If they say , wee must be laughed out , and despised for any thing , it must be for these : for herin consisteth our greatest folly . If they will haue vs laughed out for these , then I leaue thee good Reader to be Iudge betweene vs : if thou wilt say he is a foole that does thus , Theirs be the day for this time , because we now want fit opportunity to defend our selues against them .

All this while , we haue concealed the maine matter which they bring against vs , We write divirity without rethorick , and that is ( in vs ) either madnes , or impudency , But whether will they laugh vs out , or dispose vs for this , wee know not their mind as yet . Is our stile horrid , and harsh , Is it not quaint , and neate enough for our Opponents pallet ? Can we not delight their eares with iiggs , and tricks of wit ? Surely then , we are content to be laughed out or despised by our Opponents : for that 's their owne case , the one confesseth his stile to be such , and the stile of the other is so indeed . Moreouer these Opponents and our selues may ioy so to be vsed ; because , all the schoole-men that haue liued in the world ioyne with vs , and goe hand in hand with vs the busines .

We deale against persons better then our selues : and therefore we want maners , and consequently we must be laughed out , and despised for that . But is this true ? Doe we oppose our selues to mens persons , or qualities and condition ; Nothing lesse : the question on foote is an Article of faith . A point in Divinity wherein the divine authority rules the case ; the persons , and conditions of man can beare no sway , nor be admitted any roome , or place , but for this time let the persons of men come in , and their qualities , honours , and conditions whatsoever . Yet we deale not against our betters , for ( to say the least ) we are in the roome and behalfe of our Church , which wee dare preferre before all her Opponents , for they haue subscribed vnto her , and thereby they haue acknowledged and done homage vnto her Lordship , and Dominion .

Wee quarrell the persons of men in enuy to their aduancement and honours : because he that said thus now , said so long , and often before , with the approbation of our whole Church representatiue , and without blame of them that doo now accuse him . But is this true ? our Opponents say so ; but their proofe is insusficient , because in it selfe 't is vntrue , and nought in the inference , perhaps their party avouched thus much before , and yet not seene , or not regarded : for , who would suspect or misdoubt such a friend as he seemed , and was accounted ? If we were glasiers , or the sonnes of a glasier , perhaps he might see our secret thoughts and intentions : but , because we are not , we must not be laughed out , nor a●s●ised ; because we oppose not vnto any mans honour , and adnancement .

We cast a stone that hitteth our Mother . If that be so : if wee haue done it , and still avow the deed ; let vs be laughed out or despised , choose them whether ; but this is impossible , wee cast no stones at all : by our office we hold vp our Buckler to defend our Mother , and to beare of such stones as are cast by others , if any stone hits our Mother , it is that which is cast at the Church of Rome , for that is the thing in question . If that stone hit our Mother , these Opponents must laugh her out or dispise her for her labour ; for 't is shee that cast it , we doe no more but iustifie her casting . If these Opponents will laugh her out , or dispise her let them do so to vs also , for good reason the Mother , & Child should share alike , & stand or fall together .

We cause our Church to suffer , because we father a strange and vntrue tenant vpon her . Now we know we shall not be laughed out ; nor dispised ; for this : because we say of her no more , no not one word lesse , or more then she hath said vnto vs . If thus to impose deserues laughter and dispite , then to deny her to say what indeed she hath said deserues laughter and dispite ; for the case is the same in both . It that be so , then our present Opponents must be laughed out , and dispised ; for they deny her to say , what she hath said , & so much the more they deserve to bee laughed out , and dispised ; because , they deny the thing wherein sence it selfe ( even their owne eyes ) doth avow , and cannot be deceived , thus far touching the thing which concernes our selues .

They meane not to speake a word in behalfe of the impure Church of Rome : but rather , if it were not done already they would vncouer her nakednesse , and abhomination . And we are content to admit their pretence ; because , such deepe protestations , and serious cravings goes with it ; but notwithstanding they gaine nothing , for two reasons , 1. because , their deed cries loud , and inforceth strongly to bring vs backe againe to Rome . I say to Rome , even vnto that Rome , which they call impure ; for , if they haue writen truly , no man can deny to enter commons with them , even in those things which these Opponents call impure ; because from them we may argue thus , the Romish Church can yeild salvation to her members , therfore it is the safest way to ioyn to her , seeing all sides agree in the Antecedent , but , vnsafe it is , to ioyn with other Churches ; for 't is doubtfull and in question , whether salvation can there be had or no ; and thus some of that Church haue reasoned against vs ; if any say , with vs is perfection , and puritie of doctrine ; with them , is heresie , and defection , he saith Nothing sufficient to keepe vs from Rome ; because , if there were any power herein for that end , it is , because , their heresie , and defection , ( in the event ) is able to hinder salvation : but the Romish heresie , and defection , ( according to these Opponents ) is not able ( in the event ) to hinder salvation ; because , with them The foundation is held , which hath the property of that wine , which will not mingle with poyson , though a great quantity thereof be put vnto it , yea , such an Antidote it is and a thing so soveraigne , that , it will destroy much poyson , and at last quite overcome it . If all this be true , who would not be a Papist ; seeing with them we finde enough to persuade vs ; for who would not yeeld to tread the way to heaven ? and nothing to disswade vs : for no wise man will be afraid of the thing that cannot hurt him : and this is the case betweene the Romish Church and vs ; if these Opponents may be believed : if they say , They did not perceiue the issue of their doctrine , then must we blame them as heedlesse , and inconsiderate ; what , will they be our Iustructers ? Shall their I reatises serue to giue vs Instruction ? Shall Cato be compelled to come in , and see , and censure : and yet such fowle , and grosse faults bee committed . Moreover , if salvation may be had in the Romish Church , and their heresies cannot hinder it , then doubtlesse , there is absoIntely nothing sufficient to bar vs their communion : seeing they doe as strongly avouch their doctrine to be pure , as these Opponents doe condemne it as impure : In this case , what shall most men living doe , if they be seduced to Popery ? If a Priest should say , with vs thou maist goe to heaven , ( as your owne side confesse ) with vs is nothing to presse thee downe to hell : for , though we were as bad as you make vs , yet by the confession of yours , we haue an Antidote that in the event will preserue thee from the evill , and reserue thee for the good . Lastly , it can not appeare that we are blamed iustly : for , how much you say against vs , so much ( if not more ) we can say for vs ; we haue the Records of all ages for vs , Councels , Fathers , history , are strongly on our side ; we haue alledged them , and you cannot gainsay vs : so as , now , either satisfie this last , or yeeld to ioyne wich vs : for , your selues doe teach the two first , and you may not deny them ; now , in this case , what can a reasonable man doe ? He sees nothing but doubtfull , and difficult questions to keepe him from Popery , and himselfe not able to determine those doubts ; I say , who would not resolue thus ? I will ioyne with them , not with you ; seeing I haue nothing to debarr me , but some doubtfull questions that may be true , and may not be true ; yet howsoever they cannot hurt me .

If these Opponents would haue vs belieue , ( as they greatlydesire ) that , they are enemies to Rome , and friends to vs , they must haue esteemed the Church of Rome to want the nature of that Church whereof Christ is the head : for , that makes all sure , that barrs the doore , and shutteth vp all entrance vnto her , no man will be so mad to joyn with that society , where he knowes the essence or nature of Christs Church is wanting ; seeing in such a society , salvation cannot be had . It is a rule case in nature , No man will come to his losse ; and 't is as true in the state of grace , no man will venture where he shall lose heaven . But , because we finde not this , they must giue vs leaue to oppose them as enemies , not receiue them as friends , lest their friendship turnes to bitternesse at the last end .

They would persuade vs , that , Their opinion of the Romish Church is burtfull vnto her , because , therein they quit her with mercy , in stead of her cruelty : she condemneth vs wholly , we condemne her but in part . But , this commends their cause but little : for according to our common Proverbe , Foolish pitty spoiles a whole City : and this is their case : Foolish is their pity , because Gods word , and true reason does abhorre it , ( at least ) does not avow it . Spoile it doth , yea the whole City of God , ( at least so farre as it is able ) because it opens , I will not say a wicket , but the widest doore to Popery ; and standeth also in that doore , and in the high wayes like the strumpet , to call in , adulterous lovers ; as I haue already shewed : but let this pitty condemne them of cruelty , ( as for this time I am content it shall ) yet the Romish Church hath no hurt by it : for , it condemnes them of a fault in the practise of good manners , wherein the nature of the Church consisteth not , it meddles not with their faith , wherein the Church consisteth . The truth is , their opinion of the Romish Church is not loue , nor pitty : for , if it be their due , because they haue indeed that essence , and nature wherewith Christs Church is formed , then it is Iustice , ( which consisteth in giving every man his due : ) If it be not their due , because they want that essence or nature wherewith Christs Church is formed , then it is a lye , which alwayes is committed , when a man pronounceth of a thing otherwise then it is in it selfe .

They plead , That , we mistake them indeed , and in the thing they agree with vs ; because , there is one truth naturall , and another morall ; they holde the question in the first sense , and we in the second : but , vpon advisement , and a true vnderstanding of thins , we say as they doe , and they as we ; both concurring in this , that , the Romish Church hath the essence or being of Christs Church , but defiled with heresy , and idolatry . The case stands not thus , we vnderstand them to say , The Romish Church hath that essence , and nature wherewith the Church of Christ is constituted and formed . And vnto this the Church of England , and all her right bred children say the contradictory , as shall evidently appeare in the disputation it selfe , when we propound , explicate , and agree vpon , the state of the question : wherefore , let not our Opponents shrowd themselues vnder our ignorant mistaking of their meaning in the present question ; for we shall depriue them thereof , and leaue them naked vnto the wide world , when we come to the place aforesaid , where the Reader shall finde , that we accept the question , even in their owne termes , and as themselues doe explicate , and vnfold it : wherein we doe no new thing ; for our Church had vsed the like explication before them , as the Reader shall perceiue in the place forenamed . These things being true , ( as they are most true ) it was a poore shift , to cast vpon vs , the shamefull reproach of mistaking their meaning , as if , we were ignorant , and could not , or malicious , and would not or over zealous and did not , vnderstand their writing : we vse to say , Better a bad shift , then none at all : all we may answere it with the like ; A shamelesse shift , is worse then none at all : and this is the present case : when all meanes faile , we must be ignorant , malicious , or over zealous mistakers of their meaning , rather then they will be seene to meane falsely ; their doings severeth friends asunder , reconcileth not , nor bring them together .

Hitherto we haue taken as granted , that , these Opponents doe maintaine a position contradictory to our Church . It may be , they will deny it , and plead thus for themselues .

The Church of England saith thus .

We say thus .

She saith , The Church : we say , A Church . I haue not found this exception made as yet by any , yet it is very needfull , that I propound it , and giue answere herevnto ; Some man ( perhaps ) will attempt his escape by it ; for , vntruthes of this nature , must creepe into the poorest corner , rather then remaine without shelter . If there be no differrence betweene The nature of a true Church , and the nature of the true Church , then both these sentences are the same , and accordingly , they deny what our Church doth affirme ; but they are the same , for Christs Church ( howsoever it be taken , and with what word soever , it be donoted , and set out ) is form'd and constituted , by one and the same formall essence , and being , otherwise , there should be two Churches of Christ specifically form'd , and differenced : which yet , God never revealed , we never haue read , and no man therefore may avouch . If the word [ A ] and the word [ The ] import one specificall thing , then the Propositions in question are contradictorie : because , the same predicate is affirmed of the same subiect in the one , and so denied in the other : but , both these words import the same thing ; for , a perticular Church is called [ A Church ] in the common vse of men ; and so it is called [ The Church ] by the Apostle ; The Church that is in thy house Moreover , though the words [ A Church ] did make a difference from the words [ The Church ] yet the predicate part of both these propositions are still the same , for , that difference can be no more , then generall or vniuersall , and perticuler . which in this place makes no difference in the predicates , which consisteth ( cheisly ) in the terme nature , or essence : and that is the same in the Church , taken as a Catholick , or vniuersall comprehension of all the members , wherof the Church consisteth , or conceiued in perticuler , as it is bounded and limited within one Nation . This I say , the Church Catholick , and the Church Nationall , or O Econumicall , is formed and constituted by one and the same formall essence , and being , they only differ materially , whose propertie it is , to individuate the forme materiated . And sence it selfe doth teach it vs , every singuler man , and every distinct Nation and all men without exception , haue one and the same specificall , and formall being , Intelligibillitie , and Ellectuallitie , is the same in one man , & in all men , herin only they differ ; the one is a comprehension of many individuall bodies , the other a comprehension of a few individuall bodies , so is it with Christs Church , the same thing that makes that whole societie to be Christs Church specifically , and formally , the very same thing makes a Nation , or a fewer number , to be Christs Church specifically , and formally : by reason whereof , when we deny , The Romish Church to haue the nature of the Church , we deny it to haue the nature of A Church . And contrariwise , when we say , The Romish Church hath the nature of a true Church , we giue her the nature of the true Church , and thus ( I hope ) I haue prevented all men that would doubt whether these Opponents doe contradict our Church or not , and haue made it manifest , that they doe contradict her indeed , and accordingly we haue heretofore , and may hereafter , rightly , and iustly , presume it as true , and take it as certeine , and thus am I well neere at an end in my answere to all their passages in common : Two onely remaines , I will speak breifely vnto them , and then finish this matter .

Amongst the rest of their hard measure offered vnto vs , I find one heape which may not be concealed : in 15. short lines , thus are we stiled .

Doubtlesse this Opponent meant to infer something from this rabble : for , a man of wisdome , and learning will not speak words that serue to no purpose . I conceiue he would conclude thus .

This was once Bishop Iewels case , when he had to doe with rayling Harding ; to whom he answered thus : I pray thee good Reader , thinke not our cause the worse , though these mens tongues are so ready to speake ill , content thy selfe a while , and thou shalt see all this smoake blowne away , even with one blast . In whose words I answer too . These ignominious termes are nothing to inferr such a conclusion : for evill men may speake the truth , and defend a good cause : Wherefore the naughtinesse of a person inferreth not badnesse vpon a cause , or question . The Antecedent is also false , we deny our selues to be guilty as he doth charge vs , he brings no proofe for his indictment , and therefore we must be pronounced Rectius in Curia : and so every honest man ( who hath his eyes in his head ) will say of vs : for , if accusation can make guilty , who shall be innocent . Thus , these pleaders Argument is come to nothing , like smoake carryed vp with the ayre .