MIne hoste , I pray you stay with me and my friende M. Tertullus , and tell vs some newes , for wee are lately come out of Scotland , and would heare before wee come nere London , in what state things doo stand , least wee comming on a sudden , speede as ill as wee did at Edenborough , and S. Andrews .

Good my Lorde , I canne tell you no great newes , for I go not so farre as to Church once in a moneth , but if I doo happen to go , one of my seruants doth come for me in all haste , to make merrie with one guest or other , but there be twoo in this house that came from London , if it please your L. I wil intreat one of them to come vnto you , it may be he can tell you some thing .

I pray thee doo so : you are welcome my friend , I vnderstand that you came from London , I pray you tell me some newes for I hauing beene in Scotland , some space , haue not heard much of the state of England .

My L. I heare no newes , but that our Bishoppes ( Gods blessing haue theyr heartes for it ) say pretie wel , by one and by one , to these precise and hot Preachers , for some of them are putte to silence , some of them close prisoners in the Gate-house , some well loden wyth yrons in the White-lyon , and some in the Clinke , I hope to see them one day all put downe , for they trouble the whole land , and are neither contented to obey the authoritie of these holie fathers , neyther yet will suffer vs to liue as our fore-fathers haue doone before vs , and heere is a good fellowe which I met yesterday vppon the way , who is iust of their opinion .

I knowe not of what religion hee of whome you speake is of but I am sure that hee hath manie of our Preachers quallities , for whiche I like him the woorse , for since our Preacher came , I haue not gained halfe so much as heretofore I did , but if I had but euery night suche a guest , wythin one moneth all men woulde refraine from comming to mine house , and so I might begge .

Why mine hoste , what are his qualities that you dislike so much ?

I perceiue he is one of these peeuish puritanes , that troubled the Church , when my friend and I went into Scotland , haue not the Bishops yet suppressed them , neither by countenance , nor by authoritie ?

Suppressed ; No my Lord , a frind of mine writ vnto mee , that one of theyr Preachers said in a pulpit , he was perswaded that there were 100000 of them in Englande , and that the number of them encreased daily in euerie place of all estates and degrees .

I am sory for that , I maruell that you neuer tould me of it .

I did of purpose conceale it , least , togither with your ill successe that you , and so consequently I , had in Scotland , your griefe should haue bene aggrauated , for I know how that the growing of them doth grieue you .

You may be sure , that it would haue grieued mee , if you had tould me that , when you tould me of the encreasing of your friendes the Papists , I thinke I should haue died for sorrow .

I knowe that , therefore did I keepe it cloase , but if newes had come in like monne , of the growing of the Catholique religion vnto your man , that Puritane knaue , hee would haue tould it you at the first , and so haue molested you the more .

You say well , and I percciue it is better to haue a Papist , than a Puritane in an house , and more charitie to do for them .

Your Lordshippe asked me for some newes , but your speach of your being , and ill successe that you hadde in Scotland , giueth me occasion , to enquire of you ( if I may be so bolde ) Some Scottish newes .

Ah my hoste , though it grieue mee to thinke vppon it , yet it easeth my stomacke to tell it out . The Puritanes in Scotland , haue got vp their discipline , and vtterly ouerthrowen all the soueraigntie of Bishops , by which they preuailed so mightilie , that we feared our fall in England shortlie to ensue , whervpon I was sent togither with this my friend , who came out of Fraunce into England , to go and seeke the subuersion of their great assemblies , and the rest of their iurisdiction , wherein I preuailed a while , but nowe it is woorse , than euer it was .

How came it to passe , that when you had gotten some ground , you held it not ?

Because the whole land cried out for Discipline againe , and the noble men so stifly did stand to it , and lastly , the Ministers that came home from England , dealt so boldelie with the King , that I was vtterlie cast out without all hope , euer to do any good there again , and nowe I make homewarde in haste , least I loose all there also , but I praye you helpe me to speake with that Puritane , I shall learne more by him , because he is better acquainted wyth the cause than either of you .

Hee may soone knowe more in that case than I , for I promise you , mine onely studie is in my counting house , to see my money , and when each parcel is due vnto me .

And I meddle with nothing but my In-keeping , as for these controuersies and this scripturing , I neuer trouble my selfe wyth it , but I will goe to him to see whether I can get him to come to your Lordship : but before I go , I must beseech you to saye nothing to him as from mee , for you knowe , I must bee friendly to all , least I leese my custome , and driue away some of my guests .

Great reason , for euerie man must liue of his trade , neyther must you tell him what I am .

Sir , heere bee certaine gentlemen in an other chamber , that hearing of your comming from London , would gladlie speake with you .

Whence are they can you tell ?

They are English men , but they are but new come out of Scotland .

I am willing to go to them , though it be late , and so much the rather , bicause I long to heare some good newes from thence .

Here is the Gentleman that you desired to speake withall .

You are welcome my frind , I was desirous to speak with you , for that I perceiue you came from London , I praie you , can you tell vs any good newes ?

No surely , for I am a verie ill obseruer of such things .

You seeme to be a Minister , can you tell me what good successe my Lordes the Bishops haue in their proceedings ?

They haue too good successe , they wax worse and worse , they grow euen to the heigth of their iniquitie , so that I hope their kingdom wil not stand long .

Why sir , what doe they , that they offend you so grieuously ?

They stop the mouth of the sheepeheardes , and set at liberty the rauening wolues , and turne the foxes among the lambes .

I must desire you to expresse your minde more plainely , for you seeme to bee so possessed with discontentment , that it maketh you to speak ( as it were ) snatchingly .

I confesse my selfe discontented , and greatly grieued , but yet not so much , as to make mee lesse able to expresse my minde .

I pray you therefore , lay open your former speeches , that I may vnderstand your meaning .

My meaning is this ; That there are three abhominations committed by them : The first is , that they do beare such an enmity against the kingdome of Iesus Christ , that they put to silence one after an other , and will neuer cease ( if God bridle them not ) vntill they haue rooted out of the Church , all the learned , godly , and painefull teachers : The second is , that they enlarge the libertie of the common enemies the papists : The last is , that they commit the feedinge of the flockes of Christe , vnto those that prey vpon them , and eyther cannot , or will not labour to reclaime the wandering sheepe . So that the conclusions that may bee gathered vppon their actions , must needes be the euersion and ouerthrow of the Gospell , and so consequently the bringing in of popery and atheisme .

They put none to silence , but the puritans , who do indeede more hurt than good .

I know no puritans , if there be anie , it is meete that they be put to silence : But Sathan taught the Papistes , so to name the ministers of the Gospell , and you are his instrument in continuing the same rerme .

I meane them , that are not contented with the estate , but mislike the gouernement of the Church , and woulde haue a newe forme of gouernement , which would marre all .

Woulde you haue them contented with Antichristian prelates , to bee rulers of the spouse of Christ , when as the word of God hath prescribed expresly , another form direct contrary to that ?

I am a doctor of diuinity at the least , and yet could I neuer reade any thing in the worde of God , contrarie to this gouernement , neyther yet to speake of any other , but that the ordering of the Church is left to the discretion of the wise and learned .

Yes , you haue read it , if God had giuen you eyes to see it : But if your study had beene principally to aduaunce Gods glorie , and benefite his Church , which you neuer aymed at , but rather preferred vaine glorye and gaine , you should easily haue found it . I pray you therefore , when you come to London , see if you can get these bookes : the Ecclesiasticall Discipline : A lerned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernement : The Counterpoyson : A Sermon vpon the 12. to the Romanes , & M. Cartwrites last reply : some of which bookes haue bene extant this dozen yeeres , and yet are none of them answered , and you shall finde it otherwise .

If their Lordsh , were taken away , the credite of the Gospell would fall to the ground , and men would not regarde it .

Nay , their iurisdiction maketh it not to be regarded , for the simplicitie of the Gospell , can not match with such outward pompe , it was of more credit before their calling was hatched , than euer it was since .

I hope neuer to see them ouerthrown , and I thinke they will neuer giue ouer their Byshopricks .

I am of your mind , that they wil neuer giue them ouer , they haue such experience of the gaine of them , the vse of the bagge preuailed so much with one of their Apostles , that rather than hee woulde lacke money , he would sell Iesus Christ himselfe .

You speak too vnreuerently and vncharitablie of these holy fathers .

Surely I haue so much experience of their impious dealing , that I canne no better esteeme of them in respecte of their places , than of the ennemies of God , but as they bee men , I will not cease to pray for them , that God would open their eies , that they may see their sinnes , and repent , which is the best waie to deale charitablie with them .

I pray you tell ne why these men be put to silence , I am sure it is for theyr notorious misdemeanor .

I will tell you wherefore some of them were put to silence ; one had conference with a Bishop about subscription , and he was restrained for that hee gaue his friende a coppie of his conference , another , because he taught that the Church of Antichrist was no parte of the Church of God , another , because his praiers before and after Sermons were too long , and such like .

Away , it is rather for not obseruing the booke of common praier , than for any such thing as you speake of .

Indeed many are suppressed therfore , but if any man will giue them their titles and authoritie , they will giue hym leaue to vse his discreation wyth the Booke , as wee see by experience , for they vse the Booke and ceremonies as brieles to curb them that ki●k at their lordlinesse , which is the onelie thing that they mind .

Well , I loue not to heare these reuerend fathers so abused , and therefore I praye you talke no more of it , but if it please you , you may depart .

I am contented , onlie let me request you this one thing , that for so much as GOD hath giuen you learning , you would praye vnto God , to guide you with his grace , that you abuse it not to your owne destruction , but employ it to his glory , and the good of his church .

I thanke you for your good counsell , and so fare you well , we will talke more in the morning .

With a good will : I praye God our talke may tend to a good end .

M. Demetrius and mine hoste , howe like you this fellew ? is hee not a sawcie merchant , to presume thus to speake against those that were Preachers before he was borne ? But this is the miserie of our nation , that euerie yong boy will take vppon him to reach the ancient , and to reprooue them , for that their greene heades thinke that to bee true .

Your Lordship saith very well , I pray you forget not to vrge him with that in the morning . For it must needs make him mute .

I promise you he is a bolde fellowe , it is no maruayle , if such as hee is , doe stand stiffe against vs that be vnlerned , seeing they bee so bolde with you , I tel you , he tooke me vp as if I had bin but a kitchin boye , and all because I saide I liued by my monie , and was of no other trade , calling me caterpiller , thief , and murtherer , and saide plainely , that he that robbed in Stran-gate hole , was an honester man than I.

You must take heed , that you do not oppresse your brother too much , but as for these fellowes , it is their manner to be so bitter and sharpe , that they do euer with their preaching , more hurte than good .

I hope you wil course him tomorow for it : but I pray you my L. let me haue a little talke betweene you and me , of a matter that now commeth in my mind ; this man that is with you , and went and came in your company , what is he ?

To be plaine with you , he is a Papist .

Papists are enemies to the Queenes religion and lawes ; I do therefore much maruaile , that he should be put in trust by the Bishops .

The cause is this , he light into the familiaritie of one of our friendes , who confuted a Booke called the Abstract , and helped him so painefully with reasons out of the Rhemish testament , and other such like writers , to confute the Puritans , that he was thought a fit man aboue all other of his religion , to goe with me .

Why , coulde you not haue had another of your religion , but you must needs haue a Papist your assistant ?

No , no , if I had not had a Papist with me , I could neuer haue looked to haue preuailed .

Why so ? I pray you tel me the reason of that .

Because our dignities and gouernement , commeth wholy and euerie part thereof from the Pope , and is ruled and defended by the same canons , whereby his popedome is supported . So that if I had wanted their helpes , I had had none authoritie , eyther from God or man , no helpe either by reason or learning , whereby I could haue beene furthered .

Why did you not rather take some doctour of the Arches , to go with you ?

That was consulted vppon before I went , but it was not thought meet , because the most of them woulde neuer deale in that lawe at home , but onely because they knowe not else howe to liue , & therfore it was feared that they woulde not be sufficiently diligent in a matter that concerneth others . And for the rest ( who indeede ) be the same men they were in Queene Maries time , we durst not carrie anie of them from home , for none defend our kingdome thorowlie but they .

Me thinks this man should be an vnfit assistant , for if he be a right Papist , he will labor to erect the Popes kingdom , and so to crosse you .

No question but he did so , and that made for vs , for albeit we would if wee might , of the twaine , keepe rather the protestants religion with our dignities than the other , yet hadde wee rather change our religion , than to forgo our priuiledges ; this I tell you betweene you and me , but I would haue it go no further .

Do the old popish doctors stand you in such gret steed , me think you might haue hadde learned lawyers for euerie place before this time , and haue turned them out :

It is true , but we haue receiued them of purpose ( man ) for we can beare , I tel you , with their religion , so that they do beare vp our authoritie : doe you not see likewise , that we haue reserued ma● my popish prists in the ministery , wherof diuerse doe yet remaine , which wee haue done vpon speciall consideration : to wit , least there should be too manie learned , not one whereof will stand to vs , sane onely they that eyther haue , or looke to haue better preferment , or liue more easilie than S. Paules Epistles will allow them .

I haue beene bold to trouble your L. I will nowe leaue you for this time , I will come vnto you in the morning to breakfast .

You shall be welcome vnto me at all times , for I perceyue you are none of them that fauor the Puritans .

My L. your breakfast is redy , wil you haue them come to you that were here yesternight .

I would haue him that taried yesternight so late , for hee is a very honest gentleman , and a quiet , but in any case let not the Puritane come vntill breakfast be done , for he is too precise : I must needs be mery , and if he be here , he wil not let to reproue vs , if wee do butfortune to swear at vnawares , so that I shal be afraid of him in euery word I speak .

Heere is but simple cheare this morning , because it is fasting-day .

M. Tertullus wil eat no egges to day : will you M. Demetrius ?

Yea by S. Mary , I am a protestant , for I loue to eate flesh on the friday .

It is well said , but I pray you , thinke not ill of me M. Tertullus for it , for saint Paul hath taught vs , that we that eate , should not iudge them that eate not ; for wee being strong , must beare with the infirmities of the weake .

You promised yester-night to sende for the Puritane , to talke further with him , I pray you do so , for I woulde haue him taunted thorowlie .

By my troth I hadde forgotten him , mine host , call him .

Heere is the Gentleman you willed me to call .

You are welcome , this Gentleman M. Demetrius telleth me , that you , and hee , had great controuersie on the wap yesterday , and he is very defirous that I might heare your reasons , and giue my iudgement of them for his satisfaction .

Sir , I saide nothing to hym but the truth out of the worde of God , in condemning of vsurie , by which he saide he liued , and shewed him the horriblenesse of the sinne , the inconueniences temporall that come of it in the common-wealth , and the iudgements of God against the practises thereof .

Vsurie in deed in some sort is vnlawfull , but it seemeth that you dealt not with the man , as meaning to win him , but rather by such sharpenes as might harden him .

Surely my desire was to winne him , and therefore my purpose in reasoning was , to lay open the sinne vnto him , and the cause why I dealt som what roundly , was this : hee confessed the scriptures that I alleadged , but so cauelled and wrangled against the cleare light therein conteined , that it appeared vnto me his purpose was , not onely to abide an vsurer , but also to iustifie it by the word of God .

Such chollerike fellowes as you doe marre al , for you cannot deale mildely , and so you trouble the conscience , and disquiet the minde of the weake .

His conscience must be troubled by launcing , before that euer his soule can be cured .

Then I perceiue you like wel of them that prech the law so much as they do .

Yea , or else should I not like of bringing men vnto Christ , which can neuer be vntil they be humbled by the law , & made pure therby to receue the gospel .

Doe you not also like of them , preaching of predestination ?

Yea , or els should I dislike of preaching the truth , for it is a part of Gods reuealed will .

So do not I in these dais , when there bee so many weake ones , I thinke it to be a very breake-necke of all religion .

I haue heard of free-will men , that haue saide so , but I neuer heard man of learning affirme it , but one that was a Bishoppe in a Sermon , but his wordes were no lesse than blasphemie , and so are yours , and al they that say or think the same are guiltie of no lesse sinne .

Are you a Preacher and speake so of these reuerend fathers , it may be your own ordinary to whom you are sworne to giue canonicall obedience .

It was the Bishop indeede , who vsurped euen the place where I dwelt , but I neuet sware him anie obedience .

Well , we are gone from our matter .

And I pray you let vs tarry a little longer from it , to consider one thing before wee doe returne , which the talking of the Bishops bringeth into my head .

What is that ?

Surely , that I thinke you are either a B. or else brought vp in the schoole of a B. and woulde faine be one , for you doe vse your selfe verie like , as I haue knowne them do .

Wherein ?

In this , that wheras we reasoning of vsurie , wherein your conscience is clear within , you are contented for the fauor of him , and for that you like not me , to maintain the same , and to disgrace the truth , because of the partie that defendeth it , who is not according to your humor .

You may bee ashamed to speake to of these holy fathers , I dare say , that none of them euer did so .

If mine eares had not heard it , mine eies seene , & mine owne person had not felt the experience thereof , I shoulde haue beene of your minde , for I once liked them , and their verie wicked dealings made mee looke into the lawfulnes of their calling , which I see now to be meere Antichristian : but shall I tell you one example among manic ?

I am willing to heare you , but I can neuer be brought to thinke so .

Yet will I tell it you , that you may thinke of it , I was accused vnto the B. of such crimes as were most slaunderous and false , where vpon I desired him to send for mine accusers , and see how they coulde prooue , that I ( if I were con●icted ) might be punished , or else they might haue the rewarde that molesters of the preachers of the Gospell do deserue : he graunted it me , and appoynted a day , which being come , rather than I ( whome hee thought not to fauor his authoritie ) should haue anie helpe at his handes , hee made mee a sleeueles aunswere , and sent mee away . Thus are Byshoppes coutented to bee bawdes vnto al kinde of sinners , rather than they will any way seeme to further the ministerie of those whome they fauour not , and euen thus doe you : for your hatred vnto my person , maketh you to stand with that monstrous vsurer , but take hecde of it , for God will not be mocked , he seeth your dealing , and will iudge you accordingly , howsoeuer you can pretend the contrarie to the world .

As for mine owne part , I passe not what you speake : but let me aske you one question concerning these holie fathers , and that is this , what reason is there that they should do anie good in any respect vnto any of you , seeing they knowe you to bee professed foes vnto their dignities .

Because they taking themselues to be the fathers of the Church , shoulde haue a regarde to the good cause , and defend it without respect of persons .

No sir , I see no reason in that , for aboue all things , they must look to themselues , without whose authoritie the Gospell would be troden vnder foote : and therfore they may defend no cause nor person further than may stand with their owne safety .

Suppose that were lawfull , what hinderance is this to themselues , to see them that bee common and knowne drunkards , vsurers , adulterers , and profane persons punished , for that they are railers at me , for teaching the ' trueth of religion , and reproouing sharply their godlesse conuersation .

Oh you are a simple man , it is great hinderance , for they can do nothing in defence of you , though it be in matters wherein you and they doe agree , but it tendeth to the derogation of their own estimation , such is the contrarietie betwixt your building and theirs .

By that meanes shall we be so wearied with aduersaries , that we shal neuer haue any hope to doe good , but euen to be constrained to giue ouer the ministerie .

I woulde I might see that once come to passe , we haue laboured for it hitherto , and neuer could attaine vnto it neyther will the Church euer bee in quiet vntill you all be turned out .

So thought the Sodomites , that they should neuer be wel , so long as Lot was in their citie ; but when he was gone , fire from heauen consumed them : but I pray you tell me , if all were turned out , how should the people be taught , for it is euident , that none else ( almost ) maketh a conscience of his duty that way .

You think teaching wold faile without you : No sir , teaching woulde bee more regarded than it is .

Shew me how that can be .

Wee woulde haue none to preach aboue once a moneth , and then shoulde he doe it profoundly , and confirme his matter out of the fathers , and humane writers substantially , whereas you taking vpon you to preach three or foure times a week , must not onely of necessitie handle your matters verie rawlie , but also breede loathsomnesse in the people .

Surely my hart waxeth cold , and my flesh trembleth to heare you speake so monstrously : dooth preaching consist in quoting of doctors , and alleadging of Poets and Philosophers , in what part of his commission hath a minister war rant so to do ? You finde fault with our often preaching , because your selues cannot so doe , but if you woulde leaue off your vaine glory , in hunting after promotion , and your couetousnesse in adding murther vnto theft , I meane liuing to liuing , and betake your selues to study and praier , bending your whole indeuor to the glorie of God , and edifying of his people , you should see the blessing of God so aboundantly vppon you , that you shold preach foure times euery week , with more fruite than you can doe nowe foure times euery yeare , for while you bee minded as you are , the Lords iudgment is vpon your gifts , and his cursse vpon your labours , that you appeare ridiculous euen vnto children . And whereas you say often preaching cloyeth the people , you shewe your selfe plainely to haue no feeling in the sweetnes of the worde of God : for it is so delightfull vnto the childe of God , that the more he heareth and readeth it , the more desirous is he to proceede therein , it is the propertie of the vngodly , to whome the word is foolishnes to be cloied with the same .

You shal not be my teacher , neither wil I learne at your hands , I know wel inough what I haue to do .

I do not speak as a teacher vnto you , but in brotherly loue doo admonishe you , and if you refuse mine ( or rather the councell of the holie-ghost vttered by me ) you doo but as they do , whose condition you defend , I pray God forgiue it you , and lay it neither to your nor their charge .

They are great moates in your eies , they know better what to do than you can tell them , they see what is meet for the Church , being auncient graue men of long experience , better than a sort of yong boyes start vp but yesterday .

Though some be but yong , yet al are not so , for we haue some more ancient than they haue any , we haue of all ages and degrees of Schooles to compare with the best of them , and yet yeares , and humane learning , and experience , must not carrie away the matter , but the euidence of truth in the old & new Testament , and as for experience , they haue none , for they were first brought vppe in the vniuersities , then became Deanes , and such iollie fellowes , and nowe are made Mitred Lordes , so that they cannot tel what it is to traine vp a people to the gospel , & reclaime them from ignorance and sinne , for they neuer stouped so lowe as to labour therein , but if they had euen my experience , they would sing an other song , for before I came into the haruest to worke , I liked their hierarchy wel inough , but when I laid it to my labours to further them , I found that they coulde not possibly stand together .

Did the gospell euer so flourishe in England as it doth now at this present ?

No surely , God be praised for it , and encrease it more & more , but to what end do you speake it ?

To prooue that the authoritie , and wise gouernement of the Bishops hath had good successe .

I thought so , but it is ( if you woulde looke into the matter with a single eie ) cleane contrarie , for the good that hath bin done , the Lorde hath brought it to passe by these menne whome you despise , and by that course which the Bishops were euer enemies vnto .

How can you proue that I pray you , let mee heare your reasons that mooue you to thinke so , for I am perswaded of the cleane contrarie .

It serueth not in this case what you are perswaded of , for a Bishoptick hath so blinded your eies , & corrupted your iudgement , that you like nothing but that which agreeth therewithall , but I will shew you my reasons that maketh me of that iudgement , and if you look equallie into the matter , or aske anie indifferent man , you shall see it to bee so .

Shew mee them , for I long to heare them , I am sure they be wise stuffe .

First for the men , what congregation , what towne or people is there in this land , that they haue bene in the raigne of our soueraine Q. Elizabeth , conuerted to the gospell , that those men haue not bene the instruments to performe , whome the Bishops haue continuallie persecuted , and for the courses that haue bene taken , and which God hath greatly blessed , which of them haue not bin ouerturned by the Bish. and the preachers put to silence , assoone as euer the gospell beganne to appeare : On the other side , tell me if you be able , of any such effect of the ministerie of a B. or bishoplie preacher , in anie place of this land , though it hath beene interrupted these twelue yeeres , as you shal see in many places by the other sort , euen in few moneths now and then , so that the matter is not onelie cleare vnto all that will weigh it in the ballance of equitie , but vnto me , if I had no reason , it is an euident proofe that they take the right way , whose labours the Lorde doth so blesse , and contrariwise , the curse of God is on the other , for their indirect dealing .