The sacke of Roome exsequuted by the Emperour Charles armie euen at the natiuitie of this Spanish Kinge Philip. Notablie described in a Spanish dialogue, with all the horrible accidents of this sacke, and abhominable sinnes, superstitions & diseases of that cittie, which prouoked these iust iudgements of God. Translated latelie into the English tounge, neuer fitter to bee read nor deeplier considered, then euen now at this present time.

THE SACKE of Roome , Exsequuted by the Emperour Charles armie euen at the Natiuitie of this Spanish Kinge Philip.

NOTABLIE DESCRIBED IN A Spanish Dialogue , with all the Horrible accidents of this Sacke , and abhominable sinnes , superstitions & diseases of that Cittie , which prouoked these iust iudgements of God .

Translated latelie into the English tounge , neuer fitter to bee read nor deeplier considered , then euen now at this present time .

LONDON Printed by Abell Ieffes for Roger Ward 1590.

The Translator of this Spanish Dialogue to his Honest louing learned Friend A. V.

HAuing in some publique imploiments not long since so ouertoyled my selfe , as I found my liberty of returne to my former delectable studies and recreations , a very Paradize in respect of the Hel of Enuy and Mallice wherein I had beene long iniuriouslie with many stormes turmoiled : among other histories and pleasant discourses that at idlest times I read for recreation , this Spanish Dialogue receiued from you , so pleased me , as partlie for exercise of that toong , but chieflie for the singular good liking I had of the matter , and to passe ouer some melancolye conceipts ( wherinto the ingratitude of some persons , at whose handes I had but to well deserued , had throwne me ) I began to translate the same into English , following as nigh as I could the verie Spanish letter , sauing in such phrases as in our toong haue neyther grace nor sence .

The Treatise surelie is such , as being read of our nation , could not but worke singular good effects , euen in our most obstinate moderne peruerse Papists , seeing it so palpablie reuealeth the horrible errors and abuses of that their corrupted Romane religion , or rather putrified superstition ( most vniustlie by them misnamed Catholike or Apostolicall ) and that by a couple of their owne Spanish partie : notsomuch by scriptures sacred , where vnto they generally beare so small reuerence , as by euident demonstrations & such inuincible reasons as were able to reduce very Heathens and Paynims to a better sence : and the Method and stile such , as if I could deliuer it in English with that grace it hath in the Spanish , were no lesse delectable then profitable and not vnfit for other due respects to be printed and published euen in this our time : that as euen at the natiuitie of this aspiring Philip King of Spaine , their cheefe Champian , Almightie God miraculouslie stirred vp a little armie of their owne religion , iustlie to chastice the hatefull pride of that Babilonicall Sea , when her treacherie was not growne to that heigth of hellish wickednesse , it hath since aspired : So the memorie thereof reuiued by the due consideration of euery perticuler accident , cause , and circumstance , so wittily discussed and liuely represented in this discourse , ( conferred with the horrible treasons and villanies in this age , before our eyes committed by that Sea , euer sithence hatching continually new rebellions of subiects , murthers of annointed Kings and Princes , Massacres of Christian people , destruction and subuersion of kingdomes , & common-weales , tending finallie to the vtter dispeopling & desolation of all Christendome , being mounted euen to the heigth of her impietie , and ripe for ruine ) may nowe likewise animate & stir vp againe some noble spirits of our time before or at the death of the same Phillip their chiefe Abbettour , Instat Climactericus eius & babilonica Clades . and mainteiner , to attempt and atchieue the like , or a more glorious godly honourable enterprise , causing all men of right sence , no lesse to abhorre these diuelish practises and practisers , then their damnable wickednesse indeed deserues : the which my traduction now finished , I recommend to your correction and disposition : and so leaue you to your Theologicall or Metaphysicall muses , and mercifull protection of the Almightie .

The Authors preface to the Reader .

SO great is the blindnesse wherein for the most part the world is now drowned , that I maruell not at the false iudgements by the common people conceiued of this late accident of Rome : for as they suppose Religion to consist onelie in these externall things : so seeing them so badlie handled , they thinke the faith to be vtterlie ouerthrowne , and in truthe as I cannot but commend , the holy zeale wherewith the common sorte are thereto mooued , so can I not allowe of their silence , whose dutie were to reduce them from that error . Seeing then on the one part , how preiudiciall it should be , first to the glory of God , then to the saluation of his people : and also to the honour of this most Christian king and Emperour whome God hath giuen vnto vs , if these matters should remaine thus cloaked , I haue attempted ( rather led therevnto by simplicitie and hartie loue , then by foolish arrogancie to accomplish with this small seruice , these three principall things wherevnto men are bound . I was not ignorant that the matter was much more high and difficile then the measure of my forces , and yet I knowe aswell that where there is a good intention , Iesu Christ dooth lighten the vnderstanding , and supplie with his grace the defect of our forces and knowledge attained by humaine wit , My thought also , I did see represented before mee the false iudgements that superstitious Pharizes are like to conceaue of this matter , wherefore let them knowe , that I write not for them nor to them , but to the true Christians & faithfull louers of Christ Iesu . Aswell did I also see , the peruerse contrarieties of the common sorte , the which are so setled on things visible , as they do almost make a iest of the things inuisible . Remembring therfore that I wrote not to Gentiles but vnto Christians , whose perfection is to withdraw it selfe from things visible , & to loue the inuisible : I remembred also that I wrote not vnto brute people , but vnto Spaniards , whose wits , there is nothing so difficult but they are able to attaine : and seeing my desires are no others then my words expresse , I easilie perswade my selfe that I shall attaine of all that are discreete , and not counterfeit Christians , if anie default be found in this dialogue , to interpreat the same in the best sence : and impute the blame to my ignorance , and not presume to beleeue that mallice hath any parte therein , since in all I submit my selfe to the correction and iudgement of the holy Churche , the which I acknowledge for the mother of the Disciples of the trueth .

The first part of the Sacke of Rome . The Argument .

A yong knight of the Emperours Court named Lattantio , met in the market place of Valedolid with an Archdeacon that came from Rome in a Souldiers habit , & entring into S. Frauncis Church had communication concerning matters chaunced at Rome . In the first part Lattantio shewed the Archdeacon how the Emperour was in no fault for that matter . And in the second , how God permitted all that was done for the good of Christendome .

Lattantio .

GOod Lord is not this the Archdeacon of Viso , the greatest friend I had in Rome , a strange matter , it seemes to be he , though not by his apparell , it may bee some brother of his : I wil not passe by without speaking whosoeuer he bee . Tell me Gentleman , are you a brother to the Archdeacon of Viso ?

Arch.

What Segnior Lattantio haue you so soone forgotten mee ? it appeares Fortune quickly chaungeth mens knowledge .

Latt .

What say you ? now I see you are the Archdeacon himselfe indeede .

Arch.

Yea sir to do you seruice .

Latt .

Who could know you comming as now you do ? you were woont to weare your garmentes one longer then another , trailing on the ground , your cappe after the Ecclesiasticall maner , your seruants , and reuerend Mule , but now I see you on foot alone , a short cote , with a thred bare Frisado cape , a great sword , and a Souldiers hat : besides all this a long beard , and your haire and head without any signe of Crowne , who could haue knowen you ?

Arch.

Who sir ? Euen he that knowes the habit by the man , and not the man by the habit .

Latt .

Well , if the memorie haue erred , it is no reason good-will should paie for that fault which in me hath verie seldom diminished : But tell mee as God helpe you sir , how comes this chaunge ?

Arch.

What , haue you not heard what hath happened at Rome lately ?

Latt .

Yes , I haue heard some thing , but what concernes the busines of Rome , the chaunge of your garmentes

Arch.

Seeing you aske that question it appeares you know not al , for then you should haue knowen that ther is not in Rome a man that dare passe the streets in habit of an Ecclesiastical person .

Latt .

What tell you mee ?

Arch.

I tell you that when I came from Rome , the persequution against the Clergie was so great , that there was not a man that durst walke the streetes in habit of a Clarke or a Frier .

Latt .

O merueilous God how incomprehensible are thy Iudgements ? But sir I pray you were you within Rome at that time , when the Emperours armie entred ?

Arch.

Yea for my sinnes I was found or rather lost there , for of all that euer I had I haue nothing left but that you see .

Latt .

Wherfore did you not commit your selfe to the Spanish souldiours , and thereby haue saued your goods .

Arch.

My sinnes daunted my wittes , and my vnhappie lot was to fall among the Almans , where I thought it no little gaine to escape with life out of their handes .

Latt .

Is all true wee heare from thence , and that men report here ?

Arch.

I know not what you heare , nor what you say of it , but I can assure you it was the most terrible thing that euer man saw , I know not how you take it here , it seemes to mee you make no great accompt of it . But on my soule I know not whether God will so dissemble it : and if wee were in some other place where it were lawfull for me to speake I would vtter foule and terrible matters with this mouth .

Latt .

Against whom ?

Arch.

Against him that hath done more mischiefe against the Church of God then euer Turke or Pagan durst haue done .

Latt .

But soft sir Archdeacon , it may be that you are deceaued and lay the fault wher it is not , between vs any thing may passe , tell me therefore franckly your minde , and I will so endeuour to open vnto you your error , that you shall not blame him that is not blame worthie .

Arch.

I am content to open plainly vnto you my mind in this matter , but not here in the Market place , let vs goe into this Church of S. Frauncis , and there we wil discourse at our leisure .

Latt .

Agreed , let it be so .

Arch.

Now that we are where we may talke , and none heare vs , I pray you sir whatsoeuer passeth betweene vs , let no other man be priuie of it , for Princes are Princes , and no wisedome for men to put themselues in perill where they neede not .

Latt .

Hereof you may be well assured .

Arch.

Let vs then see Signior Lattantio , doth it seeme vnto you a matter tollerable that the Emperour hath done in Rome that which neuer Infidels had done , and that for his perticuler passion , and to reuenge himselfe of I wat not what , hath in such sort sought to distroy the Sea Apostolique , with the greatest Ignominie , and with greater Contempt , and greater crueltie than euer was heard or seene . I know that the Gothes tooke Rome , but yet they medled not with the Church of S. Peeter , they medled not with the Reliques of the Sainctes , they medled not with the sacred and holie thinges . But whereas those halfe Christians had this respect , now our Christians ( albeit I know not whether they bee worthie of that name ) they haue not forborne Churches , they haue not forborne Monasteries , they haue not forborne the sacred thinges , they haue violated all , they haue robbed all , they haue profaned all , that I wonder the earth hath not opened and swallowed them vp , & those also that sent them , or consented vnto it . What thinke yee now will the Turkes , the Moores , the Iewes , and the Lutherans say , seeing the head of the Church thus handled . O God , that suffrest such a thing . Oh God that consentest to so great a wickednes : Was this the defence that the Apostolike Sea hoped from hir defendor ? was this the honor that Spaine hoped for of hir so mightie king ? was this the glorie ? was this the good ? was this the Amplification and enlargement that all Christendome hoped ? was it for this that his great Graundfathers got the title of Catholicke ? For this cause did they ioyne so many Kingdomes and Seignories vnto the rule of one Lord ? for this was hee elected Emperour ? for this did the Bishop of Rome helpe him to thrust out the French out of Italie ? To the end that in one day he should destroy al that their predecessors with so great trauels , and in such a multitude of years had founded ? So many and such goodly churches , such Monasteries , such Hospitals , and Chappels , where God was woont to bee serued and honoured , to be now defaced and profaned . So manie Altars , yea euen in the Church of the Prince of the Apostles embrued with bloud , so many Reliques robbed and with sacrilegious handes profaned ? For this cause did their predecessors adioine so great holinesse to this cittie ? For this did they honor the Church with such and so many reliques ? For this did they bestow on them so many ritch ornamentes of Gold and Siluer ? that in the end hee should come without remorse to rob , deface and destroy al ? Oh Soueraigne God , is it possible that so great a crueltie , so great an outrage , so abhominable boldnes , so horrible an accident , and so execrable a wickednesse can passe without some most rigorous , most grieuous , and most notorious punishment : I know not what feeling you haue here of it , or if you haue any I merueile how ye can let it passe or dissemble it .

Latt .

I heare attentiuely all that you haue said , and in truth albeit I heare the like vttered of that matter by manie , yet mee thinkes you make it more foule , and blame it more then any other , and in all that you haue spoken it seems to me you are very ill enformed , and in my iudgement it is not reason , but passion , for that you haue lost , that causeth you to vtter the same which you haue spoken , I wil not speake passionately as you haue done , for so should we spend speech without any Frute . But without affectionate speeches , I hope trusting in your discretion & good iudgement , that before you part from me you shall plainlie vnderstand how much you haue bin deceaued in all that you haue yet saied , onely I request you to be attentiue , and not to forbeare to replie when you see cause , to the end you may not rest in any doubt .

Arch.

Say what you wil , but I wil hold you for a greater Orator then Tullius if you be able to defend this cause .

Latt .

Nay I am content you shal accompt me the veriest idiot that is in the whole world if I defend it not and prooue my opinion to you with most cleere and euident reasons . And the first thing I will prooue shall bee how the Emperoure was in no fauit for that which happened at Rome . And secondly how all that happened ther came to passe by the manifest & iust iudgement of God , to correct and chastice that Citie , wherein ( to the great slaunder of Christian Religion ) raigned al those vices that the wickednes of man could inuent , and with that correction to awake the christian people , to the end that those euils being remedied we might open our eies and liue like Christians , seeing wee glorie so much in that name .

Arch.

A great enterprise you haue taken in hand , but how you wil goe through with it I see not .

Latt .

Concerning the first I must protest vnto you , that no one thing of that which hereafter shal be said is by mee spoken in preiudice of the dignitie or person of the Pope : For it is great reason that his dignitie be reuerenced of all men , and touching his owne person , surely I can speake no ill if I would . Besides that , it is well knowen that all which hee hath done hath not passed by his owne meanes , but by meanes of the lewdnesse of some persons that he keepes about him . And to the end that we the better vnderstand one another , seeing this difference is betweene the Pope and the Emperour , I pray you first declare vnto me , what office that of the Popes is , and likewise what is the office of the Emperour , and to what ende or purpose these Dignities were first established .

Arch.

It seemeth vnto me that the office or dutie of the Emperour is to defende his Subiectes and to maintaine them in great Peace and Iustice fauouring the good , and chastising the ill .

Latt .

You say well , but what is then that of the Pope .

Arch.

That is more hard to declare , for if wee behold the time of S. Peter , it is one , and in these daies another .

Latt .

But when I demaunde of you to what ende these dignities were ordeined , it is ment that you should declare vnto mee , their intention that did ordaine them .

Arch.

Surely it seemes vnto mee it was ordeined to th ende this high Bishop should take on him the Aucthoritie to expounde the holie scriptures , and to the end hee should enstruct the people in Christian doctrine , not onely with woords but also with example of life , and to the ende he should with teares and praiers make supplication continuallie vnto God , for his Christian people , and to take on him the supreame charge and power to absolue such as had sinned & were desirous to conuert themselues , & to pronounce damnation against such as in their wicked liues remaine obstinate . And to the ende that with continuall carefull endeuour hee should procure the maintenance of the Christian people in great peace and concord : and to the end wee should haue here on earth such a one as should truelie and liuely represent vnto vs the life and holie custome of Iesus Christ our Redemer , because the hartes of men are much more allured with workes then with words . This is as much as I can gather out of the holie Scriptures , if you haue anie thing else , say it .

Latt .

This shall suffice at this present , and see that you forget it not , for we shall haue need thereof hereafter in his due time .

Arch.

No , I will not .

Latt .

Then if I shew you plainlie , that because the Emperour hath done that , which your selfe haue auerred to be his dutie : And because the Pope hath refused to do that which on his part ought to haue bin done . This distruction of Rome hath followed : In whom will you then lay the fault ?

Arch.

If you could do this which I cannot beleeue , then is it plaine to be the Popes fault .

Latt .

Then I pray you tel me your selfe , seeing you say that the Pope was instituted to the ende hee should imitate Iesus Christ , what do you think that Iesus Christ would rather maintaine his people in peace or to stir them vp and tormoile them in warres ?

Arch.

This is cleere , that the Aucthor of Peace doth not detest any thing more then warre .

Latt .

Then let vs see how shall he bee the Imitator of Christ Iesu , that stirred vp warres and dissolued peace .

Arch.

Such an one should bee farre off from Imitation of Christ , but to what end aske you mee this ?

Latt .

I demaund it for this purpose , that seeing the Emperor defending his Subiects , as he is bound : the Pope tooke armes against him , and dissolued the peace , and raised a new warre in Christendome , neither the Emperour was in fault for the euils that succeeded , seeing he did that which was his office and dutie : Neither can the Pope be excused of the fault , seeing hee did that he ought not haue doone , in breaking the peace and raising a new warre in Christendome .

Arch.

What peace did the Pope dissolue , or what warre did he raise vp in Christendome .

Latt .

He dissolued the peace that the Emperour had made with the French king , and hath stirred vp the warre which wee still haue , whereby through the iust iudgement of God the mischeefe came vpon him , which he hath receiued .

Arch.

Oh Sir , you make your account well , but where haue you learned that the pope stirred vp the warre with the Emperour , and that hee dissolued the peace made with the Frenche King .

Latt .

Because immediatly so soone as the French King was deliuered out of Prison , he sent him a writte , wherein he did absolue him of the othe which he had made vnto the Emperour , to the end he should not be bound to accomplish that which hee had promised , whereby more freelye hee might make warre vpon him .

Arch.

But how knowe you this ? you speake as though you had bin of the Popes secret Councell .

Latt .

It is knowne by manie meanes , but not to loose time looke vpon the beginning of the league that the Pope made with the Frenche king , and you shall plainelie see , that the Pope was the aduancer of it , and seeing that this is so certaine a truth , that euen the Pope himselfe confesseth it : dooth it seeme vnto you now that this was a deed fit for the Vicar of Iesus Christ . You say that his office and dutie is to make peace among such as are at difference , and he hath sowne warres betweene those that were in concord : you say his office was to teach the people both with words and workes , the doctrine of Christ Iesu , and he hath taught all things cleane contrarie therevnto : you say his dutie was to pray vnto God for his people , and he hath gone about to worke their destruction : you say that his office was to imitate Iesus Christ , and he in all things hath laboured to be contrarie vnto him : Iesu Christ was poore and humble , but he to increase I wot not what Segnorie , hath put all Christendome in armes . Iesus Christ did good against ill , but he ill for good , in making a league against the Emperour , at whose handes he had receiued so much good . I saie not this to reprothe the Pope , it is well knowne it proceeded not of himselfe , and that hee was irritated therevnto by some bad councell .

Arch.

By this meanes should he be wholie in the fault .

Latt .

Both they that gaue him so bad councell , and himselfe also that kept about him such mischieuous people , for doe you thinke that before God , a Prince shall be excused , by laying the fault in his Councell : No , no : for seeing God hath giuen him Iudgement to make choise of good men to be of his councell , and to aduise him to the best , if he chuse ill men or retaine them about him , the fault is his , and if he haue no iudgement to chuse such persons let him leaue his Segnorie .

Arch.

You require things that are very harde and difficult .

Latt .

And whie hard and difficult , dooth there need so great a iudgement for this matter . Tell me I pray you , what warre is there so iust , that a Vickar of Iesus Christ should take in hande against Christians , the members of one body , whose head is Christ and his Vickar .

Arch.

The Pope had great reasons to take in hand this warre against the Emperor , one for that he would not first seeke his freendship , and an other for that he held by vsurpation the state of Millan , hauing despoiled the Duke Frauncis Sforza thereof , and the Pope seeing this feared another day he would do as much against him , taking from him also his territories of the Church : And therefore with great Iustice and reason did the Pope take Armes against the Emperour , aswell to make him restore the Dutchie of Millane to the Duke , as also to assure the state and territories of the Church .

Latt .

I woonder that a man of so good iudgement as you are , should speak a thing so far from reason as this , let vs see whether the Pope did this as the Vickar of Christ , or as Iulio de medicis .

Arch.

It is cleere that he did it as Vickar to Christ .

Latt .

Then I saye if the Emperour would against all right and reason , despoile the Dukes of Millan of all his state , what had the Pope to doe therewith , why would hee intermeddle in matters where he was not desired , and in such matters as apperteined no wayes to his office : why did he not rather take example by Iesus Christ to haue doone the contrarie ? who being desired , that in freendlie sorte he would make Partition of an inheritance betweene two kinsemen , he would not goe , leauing an example to his followers not to entermedle in so base matters , And would you now haue his Vickar to intrude himselfe with an armed hand being not requested of them ? where learne you that Iesus Christ appointed his Vickar a Iudge betweene seculer Princes , how much lesse an Executioner or brewer of war among Christians ? will you see how vnlike he is to be the Vicar of Christ that is a stirrer of wars , behold the fruites that proceed thereof , and see how contrarie they are , not onely to Christian doctrine , but euen to humane nature ? to all other creatures God hath giuen weapons wherewith they might both defend themselues and offend others : but man alone as a creature descended from heauen , among whom there should be all concord , as a thing that should heere represent the image of God , he left him vnarmed , he meant not he should make wars , he meant there should be among men as great loue and concord , as there is among the Angels of heauen : & yet notwithstanding we are growne to so great blindnesse , that more brute then the brute creatures , more beasts then the beasts themselues , we do murther one another : the beasts do liue in peace , but we much worse then beasts do liue in wars , if we wil make searche in all countries how men liue , in Christendome onlie which is but a corner of the world , you shall find more warres then in all the world besides . And yet are we not ashamed to call our selues Christians , & for the most part ye shall finde them the most inflamers of wars , that ought most to appease them : the Bishop of Rome was bound seeing he would be the vicar of Christ Iesu , The Cardinals were bound seeing they would be the pillers of the church : the bishops were bound being pastors , to giue their liues for their sheepe , euen as Christ himself taught when he said Bonus pastor ponit Animam suam pro ouibus suis , but much more the Pope and Cardinals , seeing their reuenues were giuen to these Prelates to that ende , that vsing their pastorall office they might the better protect and preserue their people : but they for feare least they should loose some little mite of their reputation put all Christendom . O gentill Charitie , do I giue thee money to defend me , and doost thou therewith gather Souldiers together to murther me , to robbe me , and to destroie me ? where learne you that Iesus Christ commaunded his followers to make warres , Read all the Euangelicall doctrine . Read all the Apostolike Epistles , you shall finde nothing but peace , concord , vnitie , loue and charitie , when Iesus Christ was borne , they entended no warres , but the very Angels soong Gloria in excelsis deo , in terra pax , hominibus bona voluntas , He gaue vs peace when he was borne , and peace when he was crucified , how oftentimes did he admonish and exhort his followers to this peace and charitie , and yet not contented with this , he desired of his father , that his should be one among themselues , euen as he and his Father were one , could he require a greater conformitie or vnitie ? And yet furthermore , he required that those which followed his doctrine , should not make themselues different from others in garments , neither yet in their manner of behauiour , neither yet in fasting nor in any other externall matters , but onely in woorkes of charitie , this being the principall figure and meanes to knowe our faith , would you then haue the head thereof to walke so farre astraie ? if seculer princes then make warres it is no maruell , seeing the Sheepe do but follow the Shepheard , if the head make warres the other members are forced to warre also . Of the Pope I cannot but maruell , that should be a mirrour of al Christian vertues , and a patterne wherevpon we should all cast our eyes , being bound to maintaine all in peace and concorde ( yea though it were with the perrill of his owne life ) will notwithstanding make warre to gaine and maintaine things which Iesus Christ commaunded to be contemned , and that there should bee found among Christians any that would giue him ayde in an action so wicked , so execrable , & preiudiciall to the honour of Christ , what blindnesse is this ? wee call our selues Christians , and yet liue worse then Turkes , yea worse then brute beasts : if we thinke that this doctrine of Christ be but a mockerie , whie doe wee not forsake it all together , for so at least should we not doe so great wrongs , where we haue receiued so great good . But seeing wee doe knowe it to be most true , and that we doe so much glorie in the name of Christians , and disdaine those that be not : whie doe we not endeuoure to be Christians indeed ; whie doe we liue in sort as if there were neither Faith nor Loue amongest vs ?

The Philosophers and ancient Sages being gentils dispised and contemned ritches , and would you haue the Vickar of Christ Iesu make warres for that which those blind Pagans esteemed not . What shal those Nations say that do know no more of Christ Iesus then that which they behold in his Vickar , but that those Philosophers , who to attaine their true good which they had placed in vertue did despice these worldlie thinges , were much better then Iesus Christ , when they see his Vickar bruing and stirring vp warres for these thinges which they contemned . Behold here the honor done vnto him by them that maintain themselues vppon his bloud . Oh bloud of Iesus Christ so euill be thy Vickars imploied , which by thee gather these masses of money to murder men , to murder Christians , to distroy Cities , to ransack villages , to dishonour Virgins , to make such numbers of Widdowes and Orphans , and to cause such a multitude of mischiefs , as warres drue with it : A man might see in Lumbardie , yea in all Christendome , so great Prosperitie , so many and so goodlie citties , such statelie buildinges in the Suburbes and Countrie , such Gardens , such pleasures , and so great pastimes : The Laborers gathered their graines for their Flockes , and manured their landes . The Cittizens , Gentlemen , and Nobilitie , euery man in his degree emploied freelie their goods , they emploied quietly their inheritances , encreased their rents & manie of them distributed largelie among the poore : But after this accursed wars began , how manie citties haue wee seene destroied , how manie houses and places of pleasure dispeopled and razed , how manie vineyards and Orchards spoiled and defaced , how many of the Nobilitie , Citizens , and Laborers falne into extream pouertie , how manie married women haue lost their husbandes , how many Fathers and Mothers their deare children , how manie Virgins their virginitie , how manie wiues forced in presence of their Husbandes , how many Husbandes murdred in presence of their Wiues , how many Nunns dishonored , and what a slaughter and decay of men in Christendome ? and that worse is , what a number of Soules sent to Hell ? And doe wee winke at it as a matter of iest ? And yet this Vicker of Christ not contented with all this , euen at this time when we were in peace commeth to stir vs vp a new warre , euen at this time I say when we haue the enemies of our Faith at our doore , to the ende wee may loose the rest as we lost the kingdome of Hungarie , and to the end he might fully accomplish the losse of all the residue that yet remained , Yea and yet further , his Souldiers not contenting themselues to make warres like others seeke out new kindes of crueltie . For neither the Emperour Nero nor the Syracusan Dyonisius , nor all the cruel tirants that haue hetherto raigned in the world could inuent such cruelties as this armie of the Popes after it brake the truce made with Don Hugo de Moncada hath put in execution in the territorie of the Collones where two of these Christians haue taken a Virgin of the Nobilitie by the legs , and holding her naked , her head downwards , an other comes with an balberd , all aliue as shee was cleeues her into two peeces : Oh crueltie , oh impietie , oh most execrable wickednesse , what could that poore wench haue committed , or what had those wiues great with child offended , that in presence of their husbandes had their bellies ripped open with their cruell swords , and the infantes yet warm rosted on spits before the eies of the vnhappie mother . Oh woonderfull God that consentest to these thinges . Oh eares of Men that can endure to heare such a thing , oh supreame Bishop that suffrest these things to be done in thy name . What had those innocent creatures merited ? wee speake ill of Herode that caused the children lately borne to be murdred , and thou consentest to haue them murdered before they were borne : thou mightest haue suffered them at least to haue receaued Baptisme , thou shouldest not haue endeuored to haue destroied both soule and bodie . How had those poore women merited to die with such torment , to haue their bowels ripped open liuing , and to see their children groning vppon spits rosting , or those sorrowfull fathers that died with verie griefe of their vnfortunate Children and vnhappie Mothers ? What Iewe , Turke , More , or Infidil wil now come to the Faith of Iesus Christ , seeing wee receaue such woorkes from his Vickars : which of them wil euer serue or honor him ? And those Christians which vnderstand not the christian doctrine , what haue they to do but to follow their Pastor . And if euery one wil seeke to follow him , who wil desire to liue among Christians ? shal we thinke sir that this is to imitate Iesus Christ ? shall we thinke that this is to teach the Christian people ? shal we thinke that this is to interprete the sacred Scriptures ? shall we thinke that these bee the workes of Iesus Christ ? shal we thinke that to this ende this dignitie was appointed , that by the same he should destroy the Christian people .

Arch.

I cannot denie it to bee an horrible thing , but this is a matter so accustomed in Italie to make no accompt of a Pope that maketh not war , as they hold it for a very great dishonor for any Pope in his time to lose any little percel of the landes of the Church .

Latt .

Not to be tedious I wil omit a number of reasons that I were able to alledge to confute this , but let vs come to the extremitie : I say , that if the Emperour would goe about to take away the Church landes , what do you thinke ? were it not better that the Pope had lost all his temporall dignities , then that Christendome and the honor of Iesu Christ should suffer that it hath done ?

Arch.

No surely , for thus would you goe about to spoile the Church .

Latt .

And why spoile the Church , what call you the Church ?

Arch.

The Pope and Cardinals .

Latt .

And all the rest of the Christians shall they not as well bee the Church as they ?

Arch.

They say yes .

Latt .

Then the Seignorie and authoritie of the Church consisteth rather in men then in gouernment of Townes , and therefore shall the Church be wel established when it shall haue many Christians , and then dispoiled when it shall haue few .

Arch.

That seemes to mee to be true .

Latt .

Now then he that is the cause of the destruction of any one Christian man , dispoileth more the Church of Iesus Christ then he that taketh from the Pope his temporall dignities .

Arch.

Let it be so .

Latt .

Then tel me now you , what number of Christians haue perished since the Pope began this war , to assure as you say his estate ? I omit the other mischiefs which wars draweth on with it .

Arch.

Infinite .

Lat.

Now you see that hee that hath bin the cause of this destruction hath more despoiled the church then he that should haue bereaued the Pope of his temporall dignitie : But let vs see if anie man should haue caught from Iesus Christ his Cloake , do you beleeue that he would haue taken Armes to haue defended it ?

Arch.

No surely .

Latt .

Why then would you haue the Pope to do it , seeing you say hee was appointed to that ende that he should imitate Iesus Christ ?

Arch.

In this maner the Church should neuer keep any Signorie , euerie one would pull a peece from it , if they thought the Pope might not defend it .

Latt .

Whether it bee necessarie or profitable to the Church , for the Popes to haue temporal seignories or not , let them look to that , but surely mee thinkes , they might much better intende matters spirituall , if they did not so much entangle themselues with temporall , & euen in that which you haue said , you are much deceaued . For if the Pope would bee content to imitate Iesus Christ , and liue indeede as his Vickar , hee should not onely not lose any part of his lands , but rather much more should be giuen vnto him , and let vs see how he holds any thing of that hee hath but by that meanes .

Arch.

You say the trueth , but now there is scarsely any charitie in the world .

Latt .

It is your selues with your euill liues that quench the fire of Charitie , and in your selues it lieth to kindle and enflame it , If you would .

Arch.

You would haue vs enflame charitie by loosing all wee haue .

Latt .

And why not ? if it haue bene giuen you for Gods sake , why should you not bee content for Gods sake to forgoe it . It is most certaine that all true Christians should so do , we hold & possesse our goods temporal with this condicion , that we should bee alwaies readie to leaue them whensoeuer we shal see it conuentent for the honor and glorie of Christ Iesus , and for the common good of Christendome : how much more then ought you of the Clergie to do the same , yea , and how much more in dutie then ought the Vickar of Iesus Christ to do it ?

Arch.

You are so holy as I neede not meddle with you , suerly we haue no neede of such at Rome .

Latt .

Nether would I desire to liue among such wicked people ?

Arch.

You meane as there are now there :

Latt .

Neither yet as these that were there , for in an infected flocke there is bad choise to be made .

Arch.

What ? do you then account vs as bad as those Roysters .

Latt .

As bad ? Ney I would you were not much worse .

Arch.

Wherefore .

Latt .

Because you are much more pernitious vnto the whole commonweale by your bad example .

Arch.

And I pray you what be they ?

Latt .

They make not profession to be the ministers of God as you doe , neither haue they liuing for such as they haue , neither is there any that will seeke or ought to seeke to immitate them , as they should you . But staie a while , I haue not yet doone , for hetherto haue I handled this matter , calling the Pope Christs vicar : now will I handle it , making accoumpt or supposing the Pope is also a secular Prince as the Emperour , to the end you may the more cleerely see the Error you were in . And as concerning the first , it is most certaine that the Pope receiued this dignitie by the fauour of the Emperour , and hauing so gotten it , behold what gratitude , immediatlie he comforts himselfe with the King of Fraunce at his entrance into Italie , and left the freendship of the Emperour . Yea and some auerre that the Pope himselfe was the solisitor and causer of his entrance into Italie , and notwithstanding all this , the Emperour hauing the victorie against the French King , was not onely content not to take from the Pope his territories of Parma and Placentia , as both in Iustice and Reason he mought then haue doone , but ratified the league that his Embassadour made with him , yet the Pope notwithstanding not contented with this , began to frame a newe league in Italie against the Emperour after the Frenche King was Prisoner . But that secret practise was discouered , and so tooke no effect . And yet could not all this so alienate the Emperours minde , but that hee sought by all honest and reasonable meanes to content the Pope , and to procure him to be a meane in that peace , which was intreatie betweene him and the King of Fraunce , and that he should not hinder it , but he was neuer able to attaine it . Yet in the meane time was this peace concluded with Fraunce , but so soone as the King was set at libertie , the Pope began to procure a new league with him against the Emperour , hauing receiued no occasion in the world at his hands so to doe , and all this euen at that time , when the Turkes with a puisant Armie began to enter by the kingdome of Hungary , doe you thinke that this was a good parte ? The enemies were come to our gates , and we brew warres within the house . He requires the Emperour that he should not prepare any forces to resist the Turke , and yet himselfe secretly prepareth to make warre vpon the Emperor . Do you thinke that these were works of a Christian Prince ?

Arch.

But let vs see on the other side why the Emperour did not iustice to the Duke of Millan , for if he had comitted no fault , was it not good reason he should restore his state to him againe .

Latt .

Yes surely , and therefore sir , behold the Emperor placed Frauncis Sforsa in the state of Millan , whereas he might haue tane it to himselfe , seeing he hath much more right therevnto then that Duke , and that onely for the peace and ease of Italy and all Christendome , he was content to bestowe it on such a man , at whose hands he neuer had receiued any seruice . And afterward the Emperour vnderstood by his Captaines that the same Duke had conference , and had taken parte in that league which the Potentates of Italie had made against him . And seeing therein he had committed treason , it was good reason , that as a rebell disgraded , he should be depriued of his state .

Arch.

And how will you depriue a man vnheard ?

Latt .

And why not ? when the fault is euident and manifest , or by delay might ensue inconuenience , as at that time when the armie of the Emperour was in extreame danger , if it had not possessed it selfe of the Citties and Villages in the state of Millane .

Arch.

But whie did not the Emperour afterwards cause inquirie to be duely made , to haue vnderstood the truthe , and then to haue restored the state vnto him , if hee had beene found faultlesse .

Latt .

And where haue you seene a man accused in causes criminall to answer by a Procter , especially in matter of treason : he might haue presented himselfe and so haue beene tryed by order of Iustice . But that absenting of himselfe did sufficiently prooue he was culpable .

Arch.

He feared the Captaines of the Emperour , whome he knew to beare him small good will .

Latt .

In good faith he feared his owne iniustice , for behould so soone as he was escaped out of the Castell of Millaine , he ioined himselfe with the enemies of the Emperour . But what had the Pope to doe in that matter , if a Prince will punish his Vassall , hath he to intermeddle therein ? Or if he had to doe therewithall , and that it did appertaine vnto his office , was it not sufficient that the Emperour had referred all to Don Hugo di Moncada , offering him all that he could demaund . What man is there in the world that would not rather enioy one with peace , then two with warres ? if the Pope so much desired that the Duke Francis Sforsa should be restored to his estate , onely , because neither the Emperour should enioye it himselfe , nor should giue it to the infant Don Hernando his kinsman , why did he not accept that which Don Hugo di Moncada did offer on the parte of the Emperour , who was content that the said state should rest in the power of the Treceros , till such time as the right of the Duke might be seene , and that if he were not in fault in those matters he was charged , that then he should be immediatly restored , and if he were found in fault , and that he ought to be depriued , yet the Emperour promised , that neither he would take it to himselfe , nor bestowe it on the Infant Don Hernando , but on the Duke of Burboune , who was one of those that by the Pope himselfe was first set downe for it . But will you that I tell you ? the Pope ment to hold it himselfe , and thought that the Armie of the Emperour being defeated , they should be able not onely to turne him out of Lumbardie , but also out of Italie , and to take from him his kingdome of Naples , as they had agreed and made partition among themselues . And vpon this hope the Pope would not accept of that which by Don Hugo the Emperour had offered him .

Arch.

It was not for any such matter , but only because he was in league with others , he would not breake his faith with them .

Latt .

This is a gentle excuse , but I pray you why should he rather obserue his faith giuen to the French King , for the destruction of Christendome , then his former othe giuen to the Emperour for remedie of the same , he should much rather haue broken the latter giuen to the French King , then the first giuen to the Emperour . Doe you not knowe , that a vowe made to the hurte or preiudice of your neighbour , ought not to be obserued , how much more then such an oth as tendeth to the hurte of all Christendome , the dishonour of GOD , and destruction of such a multitude of people as haue suffered by meanes thereof .

Arch.

Surelie in this I must confesse you haue very great reason , but you consider not how the Emperours armie menaced to inuade the Territories of the Pope , and that the Pope as a good Prince seeing you will so call him , is bound to defend them , and you knowe well euen the lawe of nature permitteth euerye man to defend his owne .

Latt .

If the Pope would haue kept the league which he had made with the Emperour , or would haue accepted that which was newly offered vnto him , his armie would neuer haue threatned to haue entred on the Popes territorie . And yet if all were as your selfe saie , and that the lawe of Nature permitteth euery man to defend his owne : yet tell me , do you Iudge that Princes haue the same Authority ouer their people , that you haue ouer your Mule .

Arch.

Wherefore not ?

Latt .

Because Beastes are made for the seruice of Man , but Man onely for the seruice of God , let vs see , were Princes made for the people , or people for the Princes sake ?

Arch.

Surely I beleeue Princes were ordeined for the peoples sake .

Latt .

Then a good Prince without respect of his perticular interest , is bound to procure the good of his people onely , seeing for their sake he was ordeined .

Arch.

Indeed in reason it ought so to be .

Latt .

Well then let vs put the case , that the Emperors Armie woulde haue inuaded and possessed the Territories of the Church , and let vs consider whether were better for the inhabitants , that the Pope should freely haue surrendred to the Emperour , or in defence of them to doe as he hath doone .

Arch.

Surely if we shall haue regard onely to the profit of the people , there is no doubt if the Pope had freely giuen all those territories to the Emperour , they should not haue suffered so great damage as they haue doone , but shewe me a Prince that will doe this .

Latt .

I will shew you euen the Emperour himselfe , doe you not know that he might with verie great reason and iustice haue tane to himselfe both the Dukedome of Millane and the Seignorie of Genua , seeing there is not any that haue so good right to them as himselfe . But because he saw it was better for the good of the people that hee should bestow the one on Frauncis Sforza , and in the other to establish the Adorni , he did it franckly and liberallie , lesse regarding his owne benefite then the publique weale , as euery good Prince ought .

Arch.

If al men should do that they ought to do , then both spiritual and temporall , all should be the Popes .

Latt .

The Popes , and why ?

Arch.

Because he would gouerne them better and more holily then any other .

Latt .

And are you not ashamed to say so ? do you not know , that there are not any territories worse gouerned then those of the Church ?

Arch.

Yes I know it wel , but I thought you had not known it .

Arch.

But let vs consider also if the Pope plaied the part of a good Prince in taking Armes against the Emperour , at whose handes hee had receiued so many benefites , breaking the peace & friendship he held with him .

Arch.

The Pope did not take Armes against the Emperour , but against that vnbrideled armie that committed horrible extortions and other abhominable things in the state of Millane , and right and reason would , those poore people should be deliuered from that Tirannie .

Latt .

I meruaile that you should say such a thing , for let vs see if the Pope would haue mainteined frendship with the Emperour , what should his Maiestie haue needed to haue kept an armie in Italie seeing he had so lately giuen commaundement to discharge it , but when he vnderstood of the league made against him , he was then constrained to continue it , if the Pope pretended nothing but the libertie & restitution of the Duke of Millane and to free that state of the vexations of the Emperours Army , and to assure the Church landes . Why did hee not embrace the Emperours friendship , by the which all might haue bin remedied , seeing the same was also desired at his hands : if the Pope had desired no more then you speake of , what fault had the kingdome of Naples committed that they should deuide , it among them ? what had the cities of Genua and Sena committed , that the one by sea and the other by land should be besieged ? he would pretend to remedy the extorsions and spoils of the armie in Lumbardie , and yet indeed not onely encreased them there , but gaue occasion to make them far greatter through all Italie : yea euen throughout all Christendome . Read the league made between the Pope , the K. of France , the Venetians & the Florentines , and there shal you see euen that which the Pope sought , what had the Emperour done vnto him , why hee should take Armes against him ?

Arch.

Did I not tell you that the Pope did not take Armes against the Emperor , but onely against his vnbrideled Armie ?

Latt .

So that this war then was onely against the Armie .

Arch.

No otherwise .

Lat.

Why then if the war were vpon the Armie , & the Armie haue reuenged it self , wherfore lay you the fault in the Emperor .

Arch.

Because the Emperor did sustein them , & sent them new supplie , wherwith they might be able to do that they haue done .

Latt .

Did not your selfe say that the Emperors office & dutie was to defend his Subiects and to do iustice : If the Pope then would misuse them , and seeke to possesse his kingdoms and seignories , and to hinder him from doing Iustice vppon the Duke of Millan , as he was bound , of force hee was constrained to maintein & encrease his army to be able to defend and relieue them , or els in leauing to do so , he should haue left to be a good Emperor .

Arch.

In this you haue reason , but I pray you tell mee , do you thinke it was wel done of the Emperor to send Don Hugo , and the Colloneses to make that attempt on Rome ?

Latt .

The Emperor neuer did it .

Arch.

What ? did not the Emperour giue commaundement that Don Hugo and the Collonesi together should iointly enter Rome , and apprehend the Pope ?

Latt .

No , he did it not , but if hee had done it , do you thinke it had bin ill done ?

Arch.

Oh my God , And would you take vppon you to defend that too ?

Latt .

Yea surely , and tel me I pray you if your selfe had a Father , that had so far lost his wits and senses , that with his owne hands would goe about to kill and teare his owne children , what would you do ?

Arch.

Hauing no other remedie I would either shut him vp , or bind his hands till he returned to his wits againe .

Latt .

And should you not thinke that for your brothers sake also it were your dutie and charge so to do .

Arch.

Yes surely it is plaine I ought to take care and charge also of them .

Latt .

Then tell mee , the Pope is hee not a spiritual Father of all Christians ?

Arch.

Yea.

La.

Then if he with wars go about to destroy his owne Children do you not thinke it shal be a good & merciful deed aswel towards him , as also towardes his Children to endeuor to take away from him the power to do this harme , you cannot denie me this .

Arc.

Wel , but al this while see you not how great damage & dishonor done to Iesus Christ to handle in this maner his Vickar ?

Latt .

Nay , rather there is done vnto him great seruice , by auoiding this ill that his Vickar through the bad councel that he kepes about him , should not be the cause of the destruction of such a multitude of people , for whom Iesus Christ died aswel as for him , and belieue me euen the Pope himselfe , when laying aside his passions he shal com to a right knowledge of the truth , will be excedingly wel pleased with it , that hath taken away from him that meanes wherby he might otherwise haue done so great an harme : if not I pray you tell me , if your selfe ( which God forbid ) should be so far out of your wits , as that with your own teeth you should bite and teare your owne flesh , and members of your own body , would you not be singular wel pleased with him , & hold your self much bound vnto him that should hold and stay you till you came to your wits againe ?

Arch.

This is cleere .

Lat.

Then behold how all wee Christians are members of Iesus Christ , and haue for our head the same Iesus Christ .

Arch.

You say truth .

Latt .

Then if this his Vickar by the bad councell he hath about him be the occasion of the perdition and murder of his own proper members which are the Christians , shall he not bee singularly well pleased with him , that shall hinder and let him from doing so great an euill ?

Arch.

Without doubt you say the truth , but euery man cannot attaine this vnderstanding nor can iudge a right farther then they can see , and therefore Princes should be very wary what they do .

Latt .

Much more are the Princes bound vnto God then vnto men , & more regard should they haue of the iudgement of wise men then of fools . It were a goodly matter that a Prince should leaue to do the dutie which he oweth for the seruice of God , and welfare of his countrie , for feare of that which the blinde multitude should iudge or speake . Let a Prince do that he ought , and let the multitude prate what they list : for so they iudged of Dauid because he daunced before the Arke of the Testament . So they iudged of Iesus Christ , because he died vppon the Crosse , when they said he saued others , but could not saue himself , euen so they iudged of the Apostles , because they preached Christ Iesus : euen so they iudge in these daies of those which endeuor to become true Christians indeed , dispising the vanity of this world , and follow the right path of the truth . And who is there that can escape the false iudgements of the common people ? Rather wee should thinke that verie good which of the multitude is condemned for bad , and contrariwise . But wil you know the truth ? Mallice and craft they call industrie , Auarice and Ambicion they cal Magnanimitie , the slaunderous Backbiter a good Companion : a vaine dissembling Liar they term a gallant Courtier : the subtle deceauer they call a wise man : and contrariwise a good and vertuous man is called simple . If any man in christian humility make smal accompt of this Worldes vanitie , they say he is become a foole . Such a one as for Gods sake distributes his goods to the poore , they say is prodigal . And such a one as by practises and deceipts wil not seek for honor and welth they say he is a man of no valure . and such a one as for the loue of Christ forgeueth iniuries , they call a coward and a man of smal courage . Finally conuerting vertues into vices , and vices into vertues , the lewd and wicked they terme happy and fortunate , and the good and vertuous poor and vnhappie . And notwithstanding all this they are not ashamed to vsurpe the names of christians hauing no signe or marke thereof .

Arch.

Surely I am of this minde , that although you say the trueth , yet your self being young , a seculer person , & a Courtier , you should do better to leaue these matters to deuines : but this I say , let all be as you haue declared , yet let vs see at least whether it had not bin reason whosoeuer began this trouble , that the Emperour should haue chastised those which sacked the holy Pallace and the church of S. Peeter .

Latt .

Sir it had bin much better that the Pope should not haue broken the league nor his faith that he gaue to Don Hugo .

Arch.

It was not he that broke it .

Latt .

Who then made warres vpon the Collonesi .

Arch.

He made those warres not in the name of the Pope , but in the name of the Colledge .

Latt .

Neuer tell me these childish fables , whose were the Captaines ? whose were the Souldiers ? who paid them ? whose were the Ensignes ? to whome ought they obedience ? These are toyes to mocke Children . But I woonder who they were that inuented such a vanitie , and also of the Cardinals that gaue their consent to haue it doone in their name . But it is very well , seeing God hath well chastized them for it .

Arch.

Would you not haue the Pope chastize the Collonesi being his owne subiects .

Latt .

Noe , seeing he had giuen his faith not to doe it , and brake his league so oft as hee tooke armes against them , and hee knew the Emperour ought not to giue his consent , seeing the Collonesi were aswell his subiects as the Popes , and he bound as a good Prince to defend his subiects .

Arch.

But let vs then see forasmuch as after this league was broken , there was on the one side and the other so much hurte doone , wherefore did not the Emperor obserue the other league which the Viceroy of Naples made with the Pope , at that time when a great part of that kingdome was lost , and all the rest in manifest perrill to be gone ?

Latt .

What would not the Emperour obserue it ? Nay I tell you truely , that when the Capitulations of that truce came to his hands , albeit the conditions therof were vniust , and against the honour and reputation of the Emperour , yet did his Maiestie presently without regard of that which the Pope had so dishonestlie doone ) in giuing the Inuestidure of his kingdomes vnto such as had no manner right vnto them ( a matter for the verye Children to laugh at ) he did ratifie and approoue the league shewing how much he desired the friendship of the Pope , and to stand in good tearmes with him , seeing he chose rather to accept such vniust conditions , then to prosequute the iust reuenge which he had in his hands . But by the permission of God , who had determined to chastice these iniuries , the capitulations staid so long in sending hether , and the ratification in going thether , that before all was finished , that was done which we heereof passed in Rome , and surely if you will iudge rightly , there was none in fault but the very Pope himselfe , who when he might haue liued in peace , sought for warre , and that truce hee rather made for necessitie then mooued by vertue , when he sawe with what determination the Emperours Armie went to Rome . But was it not more reason that you should haue obserued the league yee made with Don Hugo , for hauing so broken the former , what could there behoped but that ye would do the like now , if the Army should haue returned . But seeing the army would not returne , why did you not moderate those conditions that yee had put into that truce , and so both the Armie had returned , and Rome remained free .

Arch.

Would you that the Pope should haue giuen them money .

Latt .

And why not ? if he had it to giue .

Arch.

What if he had to giue being no way bound to doe it .

Latt .

How was he not bound ? wherefore then doe Christians giue vnto him the rents and reuenues he hath .

Arch.

Because he should bestow & spend them in those things that should be most profitable for the Christian commonweale .

Latt .

And what could haue bin more profitable then to haue caused that armie to haue turned backe againe ? This is cleere that although matters in the end should haue falne out euen as the Pope desired , yet that Armie going forward there could not haue been escaped many murthers besides such other mischiefes as warres draweth on with it .

Arch.

You say the truth , but why did not the Emperour pay his Armie , that it might haue bin obedient to his Captaines , for it is well knowne , it was not the fault of the Duke of Burbone , that the truce was not obserued , but the Armie would not obey him , because it was not paid , and this was the Emperors fault .

Latt .

The Emperour paide not his Souldiers that he had there , because he had not wherewithall .

Arch.

Then seeing he had not wherewithall to pay his Souldiers , why would he make warre ?

Latt .

But why do you the same your selues , and therby enforce him to keep an army to defend himself , for the emperor ful gladly would haue liued in peace , if your selues had not made the war .

Arch.

Nay somwhat more I can tell you , that if his armie had not made such extreame diligence , it should haue had enough to doe to haue defended him , for I doe verely beleeue before this daye hee should not haue had left him a foote of grounde in Italie .

Latt .

How so ?

Arch.

The Pope was then in making another league , much more terrible then the first , wherevnto the King of England also should haue entred , and the Pope promised to excommunicate the Emperour , and all those on his part , and to depriue him of his kingdomes of Naples and Scicilia , and to continue a new warre vpon him till such time as they had enforced him to restore vnto the French king his Sonnes .

Latt .

A gentle peece of worke I promise you , but had it not beene better to haue brought to passe that the armie might haue returned then to kindle a new fire .

Arch.

Better no doubt : but to conclude , men are men , and cannot at all times commaund themselues according to the rule of reason . But I pray you come neerer , albeit in all that you haue sayd , you haue the greatest reason in the world , yet in good faith doe you thinke it well doone , that with those Almans worse then heretikes , and that with that scomme of Spaniards and Italians that haue neither faith nor lawe . The Emperour should suffer that sacred Cittie of Rome to be destroied , the which ( bee it good or bee it bad ) in conclusion it is the head of Christendome , he ought to haue had an other manner of regarde therevnto .

Latt .

I haue already plainely shewed you , that this was not doone neither by the commaundement nor by the will of the Emperour , and further that your selues began to make the warre , when there was a truce , and notwithstanding the Emperour ratified the peace so soone as it was presented .

Arch.

But why should he keepe in Italie such wicked people as like rauenous Woolues should come to destroie that holye Cittie .

Latt .

If you your selues would haue bin contented to haue liued in peace , & not haue made war vpon the Emperor when he did nothing against you , there had beene indeed no cause why he should haue mainteined or sent any such people into Italie would you haue it lawfull for your selues to make warres vpon vs , and not lawfull for vs to defend our selues . This were in deed a gentle manner of liuing .

Arch.

Well let it be lawfull for you in Gods name , but yet not with Infidels and Heretikes .

Latt .

Surely you speake very badlie heerein , for as concerning the Almanes , you cannot be certaine that they are Lutherans , neither is it likely or credible considering they were sent by King Ferdinando his brother , that dooth persequute the Lutherans . But you your selfe haue receiued into your Armie Lutherans that were fled out of Almany , and with them haue you made warres vpon the Emperour . And as concerning the Spaniards and Italians , which you call Infidels , if your meaning be to call wicked liuing Infidilitie . Who are then more Infidels then your selues , for where may a man finde more vices , yea or so many or so publique , or so free of punishment as in your court of Rome ? or who euer committed so great and abhominable cruelties as that Armie of the Pope in the territories of the Colonesi ? if those of the Emperors bee Infidels for liuing so ill , why are not those of yours Infidels that are much worse ? If it be lawfull for you to make warres with people that you your selues repute Infidels , why shall it not be lawful for vs to defend our selues with a people that we take not to be Infidels ? what a mockerie is this . That which you doe against the Emperour , you do it not against him but against his Armie , but that the Armie dooth against you , is not doone by the Armie but by the Emperour .

Arch.

Well let vs say the Army did it without commaundement , without consent , and against the will of the Emperour , And that his Maiestie was in no faulte , let vs then see when it was doone , whye hath hee not punished the offendours and ill dooers .

Latt .

Because he knoweth it to be a thing rather diuine then humane . And because he is accustomed rather to do good for ill , then ill for good . And a gentill toye it were for him to chastice and punishe those that venter their liues for him , and in his seruice .

Arch.

Well then seeing ye will not chastice and punish them , yet why would ye be any longer serued with such a people as had committed so horrible and abhominable outrage ,

Latt .

For two respects , first to auoid the mischiefe they would haue done being disbanded or cashed , and also to resist the flames that your selues had kindled : For a mockerie had it beene at that time when the French were marching into Italie for the Emperour to cash or dissolue his Armie .

Arch.

I cannot well tell what to replie , and surely in this you haue verie fullie perfourmed your promise , and in this I must confesse I was much abused . But now I would desire you to open vnto mee the causes why God hath permitted the euilles which haue bin done in Rome , seeing you say it hath bene for the great good of Christendome .

Latt .

Seeing in the first you rest satisfyed I doubt not by Gods helpe but to leaue you much better contented in the second , but seeing it now late , wee will leaue that part for after dinner because I meane now to deteine you for my guest .

Arch.

It shal bee sir as you commaund , for hether we may afterwardes returne againe .

The second part . Lattantio .

TO accomplish now that , which I haue promised you , hauing alreadie halfe done in performing the first part , ye wil not denie me that all the vices & al the deceipts that the mallice of Man was able to inuent , was not conioined togither in that Cittie , which with great reason ye name the holie Citie , because it ought so to be .

Arch.

Surely therin you haue great reason , and God knoweth what I alwaies thought of that matter , and what I felt at hart to see that Citie which in reason ought to be euen the patterne of vertues to all the world , to be so full of vices , chafferie , deceipt , and manifest villeinies : Such sale made of Offices , Benefices , Buls , Indulgences , and Dispensations , so shameleslie , that in verie trueth it seemed a verie mockerie of the Christian Faith , and that the Ministers of the Church tooke no other care but only to inuent means to scrape money . The Pope pawned certaine Apostles , that he had of Gold , and afterwards made an imposition to be leuied by Buls , pro redemptione Apostolorum . It is straunge they were not ashamed to commit thinges so foule and preiudiciall to their owne dignitie .

Latt .

The very same say all they that come thence , and the same did I my selfe know when I was there : But come you hether : If your Sonnes ?

Arch.

Ah sir speake courteouslie .

Latt .

Pardon mee , I remembred not you were a Clarke , albeit yee haue manie Clarkes that take no shame to haue Children , but this speech I onely vse for an example .

Arch.

Well then , speake on .

Latt .

If your Sonnes should happen to haue a verie vicious and bad Scholemaister , and that you did perceaue that by his vicious and bad manners hee did infect them , what would you do ?

Arch.

I would manie times admonish him that he should amend , but if he would not do it , I would vse my aucthoritie ouer him , and chastice him gently , that for feare of ill he should amend , if he would not for the loue of good .

Latt .

Then behold heere God is Father to vs all , and hath deliuered vs vnto the Pope as vnto our Scholemaister , to the end wee should learne of him , and of those that are about him to liue like Christians . But seeing the vices of that court of Rome , were such and so great , that they infected these Children of God , & that wee did not onely not learn of them the doctrine of Christ , but rather a manner of life most contrarie , God seeing that neither the Prophets , the Euangelistes , nor such a number of learned Doctors as haue written in times past , reprouing vices , and praising vertues , could moue them that liued wickedly to amend and liue like Christians , he sought out new means to draw them to do their duties . And besides manie other verie good Maisters and Preachers sent vs in times past , hee hath sent euen in these our daies that excellent Man Erasmus Roterodamus , who with much eloquence , prudence , and modestie , in manie of his workes , discouering the vices and deceipts of the Romans Court , and in generall of all the Persons Ecclesiasticall , a man would haue thought it had bin ynough to haue mooued all such as in that calling liued so wickedly to haue amended for very shame of those thinges were spoken of them . But when this would nothing profite them , but that their wickednesse rather daily more and more encreased , God sought a new meane to conuert them , and therefore permitted that Frier Martin Luther to rise vp , who should not onely vtterlie shame them , declaring without any respect all their vices , but should also draw a number of people from the obedience of these prelats , to the end that such as would not be mooued with shame might at least for coueteousnes of their worldly wealth be reformed , seeing how much yee should loose by the reuolt of Almanie , or for ambition , seeing how great a Seignorie yee should part withal if Almanie should fall from your obedience in sort as presently it doth .

Arch.

But that Friar hath not onely spoken euil of vs but also of God in a thousand heresies that he hath written .

Latt .

You say the truth , but if your selues had not first amended that which with great reason he reprooued and not irritated him farther with your excommunications , perhaps hee neuer would haue broken out into those heresies , which afterwards he wrote , nether should yee haue had in Germanie so great a distruction of soules and bodies , as since by meanes therof hath happened .

Arch.

But stay sir , this could not be remedied without a councel general , & they say it was not fit at that time to cal a councell , for that it had bin a manifest betraying of all the ecclesiastical persons , so as if at that time we should haue called a general councel , we might haue gone al to the Hospital , & the Pope too with vs for company .

Latt .

How so ?

Arch.

The whole states of the Empire presented certaine wrongs , which they said they receaued of the apostolik Sea & of many persons ecclesiastical , & in euery point they required redres ,

Latt .

And why then did you not redresse them ?

Arch.

Therabout we went , but they alledged that seeing the rents of the church were giuen and appointed for reliefe and succour of the poore that they should bee spent that way , and not in warres , nor in vices , nor in pride as at this day for the most part they are . And then they farther desired that the people and not the clergie should haue the administration of them . And then they desired that no dispensation should be giuen for money , alledging that aswell the poore were the Children of God as the ritch , and that giuing dispensations for money , the Poore who in reason should be most priueledged were most oppressed , and the Ritch contrariwise most priueledged .

Latt .

And were not you in that as I haue often bene and still am astonished in such sort as I know not what to say , I see on the one side that Christ praiseth pouerty and inuiteth vs with his most perfect example thereunto , but on the other side , I see wee can scarsly get any thing of his Ministers but for money , at Baptisme money , at Bishoping money , at Mariage money , at Holy Orders money , for Confession money , for discharge of Excommunications money , no not Extreame Vnction without money , they will ring no Bels without money , no Buriall in the Church without money , no hearing of Masse in times of Interdiction without money : So that it seemeth by them , that Paradize is shut vp from them that haue no money . Then what meaneth this that the Ritche is buried in the Church and the poore in the Church yard . If Christ had meant that his Church should haue bin more partiall to the Ritch , then to the Poore , why doth hee councell vs to pouertie ? The Ritch man may marrie with his neerest kin , but the poore not so , albeit he be readie to die for loue of her . The Ritch may eate flesh in Lent , but the poore may not , albeit Fish perhaps be much dearer . The ritch man readily getteth large indulgences , but the poore none , because hee wanteth money to pay for them . And of this manner yee shall finde an infinite number of other thinges : and you shall not want of them , that will alledge manie things to be done for the seruice of God as to found Churches and Monasteries , to say many Masses , & manie Trentals , and to buye many Tapers to burne vpon your Sepulture . Iesus Christ doth councell mee to dispise and leaue all these worldly thinges to follow him , and thou dost councel me to seeke them . You should do me a verie great pleasure to shew me the reason they can alledge for it , for as God shall saue mee , I neither know , nor can conceaue anie .

Arch.

In good faith yee are now climing a good Tree , but heare you ? I neuer brake my Braine about these matters that could yeeld mee no profite .

Latt .

Now wel mought you thee I pray God .

Arch.

Besides all this they said , that when vnto the Clergie these liberties and Immunities were first giuen , which yet they hold , they were then poore & imparted that they had with others that were in want more then themselues , but now they are much more ritch then their founders , and that it seemed neither honest nor reasonable , that the poorer sort of the people should be burdened with impositions , when the Cleargie vpon whom they spent all should be exempted . They said also that they had so many feasts dayes to obserue , that workemen and labourers receiued great preiudice thereby , and that by proofe it was seene , that men vpon those daies did not exercise themselues in such matters as they ought , but in other matters much worse , then vpon other daies , so that it were conuenient also to haue some moderation of these holy dayes .

Latt .

And what do you thinke that they spake amisse therein .

Arch.

And will you defend them to ? Doe you not see that those Saints whose feasts you would abolish would be offended , and thereby some great ill might happen vnto vs .

Latt .

Yea but doe not you see that those Saints haue much more cause to be offended with the vices and villanies committed vpon those festiuall dayes , then if men did onely worke for their liuing . Surely if men did truely serue God vpon these festiuall dayes , I would wish euery day festiuall , but seeing this is not doone , I cannot hold it ill , that they were moderated , if a man play the drunkard , or play all day at Boules or at Dice , or wander about women or other like villanies , we thinke we haue not broken the feast . But if another forced by extreame necessitie worke to get his meate , presently they say this is an heretike . I cannot skill of these seruices , it greeueth men to see ritch men vpon these dayes to take all their pleasures , and to laye the whole burthen on the vnhappy Artificers , labourers , and poore men .

Arch.

For all this that you haue said we make no great reckoning , we rather looke to that we should lose in acquitting anye of our feast dayes .

Latt .

Whie what should you lose .

Arch.

Our offerings , which are made much more aboundantly on festiuall daies then vpon other . They said also that there was of the Clergie many that liued very badlie , and marryeng not , yet kept they both women and children , euen aswell and as openly as if they had wiues , wherevpon ensued much offence and slaunder among the people , wherefore they say it were better for them to marrie .

Latt .

Whie what should you lose .

Arch.

Our offerings which are made much more aboundantly on festiuall dayes then vpon other . They sayd also that there was of the Cleargie many that liued very badly and marryeng not , yet kept they both women and children euen aswell and as openly as if they had wiues , whervpon ensued much offence and slaunder among the people , wherfore they saye it were better for them to marrie .

Latt .

And what cause haue you to dislike of that .

Arch.

And haue we not cause of dislike from freemen to bee made bondmen .

Latt .

I rather thinke of slaues they would make you freemen , for tell me is there in the world any greater bondage or slauerie then vnto sinne .

Arch.

I thinke not .

Latt .

Why then your selues resting in sinne with these your Queanes , do you not see that you are most shamefully the slaues of sinne . And they discharge you of that slauerie , that seeke to haue you married , whereby you may liue honestlye with your lawfull wiues .

Arch.

But doe not you see that if Clarkes should marry , it would go ill with them , and that they should lose much of theyr authoritie .

Latt .

And doe not you thinke it much worse , they should be whoremongers , and thereby lose more of their authoritie , if I might see Clarkes liue chastly , and that they would admit none to that dignitie , but such as were at least 50. yeares of age , as God saue me I would thinke it better , they should not marry . But among such a number of young priests that take orders rather for couetousnesse then for the loue of God , in whom you see no signe of Christian modestie , were it not much better for them to marrie .

Arch.

But do you not see , that if Clarkes should marry their children being not capable of inheritance , they should either dye for want , or must be forced to become theeues , or their Fathers should be compelled to rob the Church of her liuing , to bestowe it on their Sonnes , whereby should growe two great inconueniences , the one that we should encrease a number more of theeues and secondly that our Churches should be dispoiled .

Latt .

Both these inconueniences may easily be remedied , if that you of the Clergie would labour to imitate the pouertie of them , whose successors you pretend your selues to bee , and that you would not be ashamed to bring vp your children in some honest occupations , whereby they might get their liuing , and so should they be also much better brought vp & instructed in matters of faith , whereby should ensue much good to the publique weale , and so God helpe me it is a thing me thinks your selues should desire .

Arch.

Desire quod you . God forbid that euer that should come to passe , for marke sir , whereto we should then come , if I marrie I must then of necessitie liue with my wife , bee she good or bad , foule or faire , all daies of my life or hir life : whereas now if shee that I keepe content me not to night , I can leaue hir to morrow and take an other . And besides all this , if I list not to keepe a wench of mine owne , all the prittie wenches in the world are ours or to speake more frankely and plainely , you keepe and mainteine them , and we enioy them .

Latt .

But what becomes then of your Soules .

Arch.

O let that alone , for God is mercifull , I make my praiers and confesse me to God when I lie downe , and when I rise againe . I take no mans goods , I owe no man any money , I rob not by the high waies , I murther no man , I fast all those daies that the Church commaundeth , there passeth not a daye that I heere not masse , and doe you not thinke that all this is inough to make a man a Christian , as for that other matter of women , to conclude we are men , and God is mercifull .

Latt .

You say truth , but surely heerin you are much lesse then men , & I stand in great doubt , whether God will be so mercifull as to pardon so many knaueries , if you perseuere still in them .

Arch.

Well we will leaue those matters when we are older .

Latt .

You doe well to iest with God , but how are you assured to liue till the morrow .

Arch.

Be you not so superstitious , God hath pardon inough in store , and see what you doe , would you haue the constitutions of the Churche broken , that hath continued so manye yeares ?

Latt .

And whye not ? if so it bee conuenient for the publique weale of Christendome .

Arch.

And shall the Church then seeme to haue erred so many yeares together ?

Latt .

You are much awrie in your accoumpt , for you shall see the church according to some one time dooth order things that in an other time againe it dooth annihilate . Doe you not reade in the Acts of the Apostles , that in the Councell of Ierusalem it was ordred , that they should eate no bloud nor strangled beast .

Arch.

Yea I haue read it .

Latt .

Why therefore doe you not yet obserue it ?

Arch.

I neuer set my wit on that place .

Latt .

Then will I tell you , it was doone to satisfie the superstition of the Iewes , albeit the Apostels knew it was not necessarie , and therefore afterwards they derogated this constitution , as a thing superstitious : and yet it is not to be thought for this , that the Councell did erre . Then after the same manner , what inconueniences should it be , if that which the Church in one time for vrgent respects had ordered , in an other should be for respects more vrgent abrogated . And therefore me thinkes the same constitution should now also be abrogated , and for truth I know no reason to the contrarie , but onely that your selfe alledgeth , it should not be for your owne benefit .

Arch.

Well let vs leaue this now .

Latt .

Now therefore do you not thinke that it should be much better to redresse those thinges which you saye the Almanes did require , and to amend your liues , and seeing we do honor you so much as the Ministers of God , to be so indeed , and not to continue in your hardnesse , and so not to be the occasion of great mischiefes as hath thereby happened .

Arch.

If the Almans desire redresse in those matters , the Church may prouide remedie when they see good .

Latt .

Well you see , that for asmuch as you would not giue eare to the honest reprehensions of Erasmus , neither yet to the dishonest rebukes of Luther , God sought out an other kinde of meanes to conuert you , and therfore permitted those Souldiers that sacked Rome with Don Hugo , and also that the Collonesi should make that assault , whereof your selfe now complaine : for seeing that all were now become shamelesse , and the behauiour and course of life they all held , he sought to make them doe that for feare of loosing their liues , which for feare of destroying their soules , they would not do . And God , seeing that there was no other way left to deliuer his Children from perdition , he hath done with you euen as your selfe said you would haue done with the Scholemaister of the Children which should infect them with his vices , and would not amend .

Arch.

It may bee as you say , but what had the image committed ? what offences had the Reliques done ? or the dignities , or the honest and good people which were also robbed and ill intreated .

Latt .

I pray you report me the matter euen as it passed , seeing you were there present and I will tell you the cause as I thinke why God permitted euerie of those thinges that yee shall trulie recompt vnto me .

Arch.

Great reason yee haue surely in all this that you haue said , I shal with a verie good will do that you haue required : and heare whatsoeuer you wil say with a much better . You are therefore to know that the Emperours Armie hauing left their Artillerie at Sena , which was but a small quantitie , with the greatest speed that euer was heard of marched euen to Rome , and arriued there the fifth of May .

Latt .

But what was the reason the Pope sent not to require some communication .

Arch.

Nay the good Duke of Burbone sent to desire of the Pope that he would send some person with whom he might treat vpon his entrance into Rome : But the Pope relying vppon his new league that he had made , and the Armie of the leaguers hauing promised to come to his succors hee would not enter into any manner of communication : And when the Armie knew this , the very next day in the morning they resolued to assault the Citie : And such was our ill fortune , that euen at the beginning and within the Towne one with an Harquebuze happened to kill the good Duke of Burbone , whose death was the cause of much ill .

Latt .

Surely it euen breakes my hart to heare of so vnhappy a death .

Arch.

Our sinnes was the cause , for if he had liued there had not bin so much mischiefe done .

Latt .

Now would to God you had not had those faultes , but who euer heard that the sinnes of a Citie should cause their destruction that came to assaile them ?

Arch.

In this matter it may bee well said , for the Duke of Burbone came not to conquere vs , but to defende vs from his owne armie , hee came not to sacke vs , but to keepe vs that wee should not be sacked . It is wee that had most cause to lament his death ▪ for himselfe there is no man but rather doth enuy him then pitie him , for he lost his life with the greatest honor that euer did man , & by his death atteined that , which a number of great Captains were neuer able to atteine , so that the verie memorie of him wil be alwaies most honorable : onely one thing greeueth me , that is , the peril of his soule dying excommunicate .

Latt .

And why excommunicate ?

Arch.

Because hee entred with an armed hand into the territories of the Church , and sought to assaile the holy citie of Rome .

Latt .

Do you know what one decree saith , to wit , that manie are excommunicate by the Pope , that are not excommunicate by God , neither doth the Pope entend , that he should be excommunicat that remaineth within the terrritories of the Church with intention to defend them , and in al that he can to prouide that they should not receaue any damage as this Prince did .

Arch.

Yee say truth , neuerthelesse his first motion was voluntarie .

Latt .

Of this your selfe before verie wel declared the cause , for hee was bound to defend the kingdome of Naples , beeing by the Emperor made his lieftenant generall for all Italie neither went he to possesse the landes of the Church , but to prohibite the Pope that he should not possesse the landes & territories of the Emperour and to bring him to some vnitie and concord with his Maiestie .

Arch.

Well let that be so , but to returne to our purpose . The Emperors armie was so desirous to enter Rome , some to robbe and spoile , others for the extreame hatred they bare to that court of Rome , and some both for the one and the other cause , that the Spaniards and Italians on the one side by scale . And the Almanes on the other side by Pickaxes breaking downe the wall , entred by the Burge , on which side stands ( as you know ) the Church of Saint Peeter and the holy Pallace .

Latt .

Yea and a great manie of verie good houses of Cardinals . Of one thing I verie much maruell , that they within hauing Artillerie , and those without hauing none , how it was possible for them so easily to enter without the slaughter of an hundred onely of themselues . But of you how many were slaine ?

Arch.

Sir you know how vncerteine reportes are alwaies in such like matters . Some say Sixe thousand men , but in truth there died not vpon the entrie aboue four thousand , for imediatly they retired themselues into the Cittie , and I tell you truth I should haue deemed this a verie great miracle , if afterwarde I had not seene the same souldiers haue done that they did , wherby I cannot beleeue that God would do so great a miracle for them .

Latt .

You are much deceaued , for God did not this miracle for them , but to punish and correct you .

Arch.

Therein I beleeue you say the verie truth .

Latt .

I woonder after their Generall was slaine , that they were not dismaied ( as commonly men are ) and so did not leaue the fight .

Arch.

So was it surely but the death of this Generall inflamed them more and encreased their desire to enter the citie with greater furie then before .

Latt .

Yee tell mee woonders .

Arch.

Surely so it was , and this good duke of Burbone was so beleeued of all , that euerie man desired himselfe to die or to reuenge the death of him .

Latt .

And therefore it was he me thinks that was cause of all that crueltie .

Arch.

It is most likely to be so .

Lat.

Oh mighty God how meruelous art thou in al thy works , & in each perticular how wonderfully discouerest thou thy power , thou determinest that this good Duke should bee killed , to the end that with the more rigor thy iustice should bee executed : but let vs see where was the Pope all this while ?

Arch.

Euen in his owne Pallace , and so carlesse , that it was a woonder hee was not taken , but seeing in how bad tearmes matters stood , hee retired himselfe to the Castle of Saint Angelo with 13. Cardinals and other Bishops and principall persons which staied with him . And presently the Ennemies entred and spoiled , and sacked all that was in the Pallace , and the like did they in all the Cardinals houses , and all other howses , that were within the Burge , not sparing anie , no not the Church of the Prince of the Apostles . This day they had there ynoughe to doo without entring into Rome , whither our people , hoising vp the draw Bridge , had retired and fortified themselues .

Latt .

But the people of Rome , and the rest of you that were escaped when you saw this present daunger why did you not accord with the Emperour ? what had you to do with the Popes warre .

Arch.

Surely verie little , but what would you haue vs to do ? haue yee not heard the old prouer be that the lawes are as please the Prince . The Poore Romane people seeing their manifest destruction , would haue sent Embassadors to the army of the Emperour to haue agreed with him , and to haue auoided the sacke , but the Pope by no meanes would consent vnto it .

Latt .

But herein tell the truth , for this was a straunge inhumanitie , had it not bin better for the poore people to haue taken any accord for their safetie , then to haue suffered that they haue done .

Arch.

You say truth , but who would haue thought that matters should haue falne out as they did . The Captains of the Emperour presently determined to assault the Cittie , and the verie same night fighting with their enemies they entred , and the sack continued more then eight daies , in which time they had no regard of nation , qualitie , or kinde of men .

Lat.

O my God , and were not the Captaines able to remedie so great an euill ?

Arch.

Surely the Captaines did what they could , but all was in vaine , the Souldiers being so flesht in these robberies as they were : you should behold troops of Souldiers passing the streets with cries , one carried prisoners , an other plate , an other howshold stuffe . But the sighes , groanes , and outcries of Women , and Children in all places were so pitteous , that my Bones yet shake to make report of them .

Latt .

Yea and mine also to heare you tell of it : but they carried some respect to Bishops and Cardinals ?

Arch.

In truth no more then if they had bin soldiers as themselues , and the like to the Churches and Monasteries , all was fish that came to their nette , there was neuer seene more cruelty , lesse humanitie nor feare of God .

Latt .

This outrage mee thinkes should bee done by the Almanes .

Arch.

In good faith our Spaniards were not idle , but plaide their parte aswell as any , and then the Italian pages for they were the first that set to their hand .

Latt .

But you your selues what did you all that while .

Arch.

We had good leysure to pare our Nailes .

Latt .

But in good south .

Arch.

What would you we should haue done , some fled , some were tane and raunsomed , and all of vs sped vnluckely .

Latt .

But you that were ransomed , did they then suffer you to liue in peace .

Arch.

No as God saue me , we were euen in as great perrill as before , till such time as we had nothing lest that they could spoile vs of .

Latt .

But whereof then did you eate .

Arch.

The mercy of God neuer failed , when we had no partridges we eate Hennes .

Latt .

And vpon fasting dayes .

Arch.

What talke ye of fasting daies , thinke you Souldiers make any difference betweene fasting dayes and Soundaies . O cursed generation , for to tell you the truthe me thought it was a most wicked thing that they should haue so small regard of the commaundements of the Churche .

Latt .

Doe not you your selues contemne the Commaundements of God , and doe you maruell that the Souldiers regarde not the precepts of the Church . But which thinke you to be the greater fault , simple fornication , or to eate flesh in the holy time of Lent .

Arch.

This is a gentle question , the one is a naturall and humane matter , and the other a great abhomination , to eate flesh in the holy Lent , O Iesus speake not of such a thing .

Latt .

Now as God helpe me , you haue a gallant iudgement , and do you not know that a man may better eate flesh in Lent or on any other fasting day , then commit a single fornication .

Arch.

And why so ?

Latt .

Because it should be more wholsome for the body , and lesse hurtfull for the soule .

Arch.

And how so ?

Latt .

Is it not cleere that flesh is more wholsome then fish .

Arch.

Yes .

Latt .

Then is it not more wholsome for the bodie to eate flesh then fishe ? and concernng the soule , is it not a greater offence to breake the commaundements that God himselfe hath giuen then these of the Churche ?

Arch.

Yes that is true .

Latt .

Then is the sinne greater to commit fornication , which is prohibited Iure Diuino , then to eate flesh in Lent , which was onely a constitution humane .

Arch.

I am content to confesse that you haue reason in this also , so as you would shew me the reason why we thinke it commonly a greater offence to sinne against constitutions humane , then against the diuine .

Latt .

We will enter no further into this , least we want time for the rest , but let vs prosequute our purpose ,

Arch.

Let it be so , let vs leaue this for some other time , and tell me now what was the reason that the iust should suffer for sinners . It is likely that in Rome there was many good men , that neither were partakers of the vices , nor in fault for the wars and yet suffred ioyntly with the bad .

Latt .

The bad receiued punishment for their wickednes , and the good vexations in this world to attaine the greater glory in the next .

Arch.

At least they should haue had some respect vnto the Spaniards and Almains , and other nations that were Vassals and seruants to the Emperour , but they sacking the Spanish Church of S. Iames , and the house of Don Pedro de salmanca Embassadour of Don Ferdinando king of Hungarie , & the house of Don Antonio de salmanca that now is Bishop of Gurcense . They left neither house , Church , nor man , that was in Rome vnsackt or ransomed , euen the Secretary Perez himselfe , who was resident at Rome in the behalfe of the Emperour .

Latt .

Euen in this alone yee might know it was a manifest iudgement of God , & no humaine action , neither executed by the will or commaundement of the Emperor , seeing they tooke no regard , no not of his owne Subiects and seruants .

Arch.

You say trueth , but is it not a horrible thing , that Christians should sell & raunsome Christians as those souldiers did ?

Latt .

Yes surely , it is a horrible thing indeed , but it is so common a matter among men of warre , as we haue no cause to maruell at any thing they did there , where they were woont not onely to sell and raunsome men , but euen their soules also .

Arch.

What their soules , and how soe ?

Latt .

That will I tell you , but in your eare .

Arch.

Why , there is no body heere .

Latt .

I care not for that , come hither .

Arch.

Euen so ? now I vnderstand you .

Latt .

And doe you not thinke I haue reason .

Arch.

Yes surely and that very great , and now doe I knowe that God hath suffered this euen to the end that we should haue knowledge of our error . But now to tell you of the other Cardinals that were in Rome , and could not together with the Pope escape into the Castell of S. Angelo : how they were tane , and ransomed , and their persons full ill fauouredly handled , being drawne by the streetes of Rome bare legged , among those Almanes , that it was the greatest misery in the world to see them , especially when men remembred the Pompe wherein they were woont to go to the Pallace , and of the multitude of seruants that attended them when they passed by the Castell .

Latt .

Surely this was indeed a horrible thing , but yet you are to consider that this was their owne seeking , seeing they consented the Pope should make warres vpon the Emperour , and then breaking the truce made with Don Hugo , suffered the same in the name of the Colledge to be violated , and the most horrible abhominations to be committed that euer were heard of . And how could you thinke but God would chastice you for it .

Ar.

But alas what could they do , if the Pope would haue it so ?

Latt .

After they had doone all their diligence to perswade him , if they could not preuaile , or haue doone him any good , they might haue gotten them out of Rome , and not haue beene partakers of so great wickednesse , seeing the gates stood open , know yee not , that Agentes , & Consentientes pari pena puniuntur ? and aswell perhaps their owne sinnes on the other side deserued it , if not aske M. Pasquine .

Arch.

No no , I neede not aske him , I know that aswell as Maister Pasquine .

Latt .

If you know that , ye need not maruell at that you sawe , but onely that God of his infinit bountie should so long dissemble and beare with them .

Arch.

But what say you of the mockerie they made of them ? An Almaine clothing himselfe like a Cardinall went riding about Rome in his pontificalibus and a bottle of Wine on the pumell of his Saddle . And then a Spaniard in the same manner with a Curtezan behind him , was it possible in the worlde to make a greater mockery .

Latt .

But let vs consider whether it were not a greater shame and mockerie of the dignitie of a Cardinall , hauing taken his hat , to doe the workes of a Soulder or worse : or for a Souldier to take a Cardinals hat to counterfet the Cardinall , though the one and the other be naught , yet can ye not deny me , but that the first is the worst , yea and more preiudiciall to the sea Apostolike .

Arch.

It is true , but for conclusion , the Cardinals are men , and cannot leaue to doe like men , but this other is to abandon all reuerence and obedience to such as it is due , without which no commonweale can stand .

Latt .

And with that would we be well contented , that the Cardinals were men , and did not many times shew themselues worse then men . But tell me I praye you the Apostles were they not men too ?

Arch.

Yes , but they were vpholden by the holy Ghost .

Latt .

And let vs see the holy Ghost that is now , is it not the very same that was then .

Arch.

Yes .

Latt .

And if they would desire it should it be denied them .

Arch.

Noe.

Latt .

Why doe they not then request it ?

Arch.

Because they haue not doone it .

Latt .

Theirs then is the fault , as you may see , and from hensforth they may know how great an abhomination it is , that they being the pillers of the Church , haue doone woorkes much worse then Souldiers , and yet you thinke it a more abhominable matter for Souldiers to weare their habits . But why doe you tell me nothing of the Bishops .

Arch.

Why would you haue me tell you of them , they were handled euen as others , I will tell you that I saw among many honourable persons that they had taken and carried to the market place to be sold , the Almaines led a Bishop of their owne nations which stood vpon election to haue beene Cardinall .

Latt .

What , to be sold ?

Arch.

And what maruell , yea euen with a bough in his Forhead , as they do when they sell beastes , and when they could find none to buye them , they plaied for them at dice , what thinke you of this geere ?

Latt .

Verie ill : and yet I tell you this is not without a misterye . Tell mee which esteeme you more a Soule , or a bodie ?

Arch.

A Soule without comparison .

Latt .

But howe many Soules then haue you sold in this world .

Arch.

Why how is it possible to sell Soules ?

Latt .

Haue you not read in the Apocalips that they counted the Soules among their other Marchaundise . He that selleth a-Bishoprick , hee that selleth a Benefice with cure of Soules , doth not hee sell the Soules of his Subiectes ?

Arch.

Surely you say most true , these thinges I neuer liked of , neither of giuing benefices to pencion with condition of Redemption at so much in the hundred , which is nothing else but to goe about to deceaue God Almightie .

Latt .

In good faith was this their trick to deceaue , and in this maner ? how many soules haue you seene playd at dice ?

Arch.

Infinite .

Latt .

Now do you see , or hereby you may see and know your error , and need not meruell that those soldiers that haue accustomed to liue by robberie should sell Priestes , seeing your selues sold benefices , neither yet if they sold Bishops seeing your selues sold Bishopricks , and the one is so much more grieuous then the other as the Soule is more pretious then the Bodie : but rather you should allow wel of them seeing they sould neuer a Cardinal .

Arch.

Was it not ynough that they did raunsome them , and made composition for their houses and all they had in Rome , that nothing remained free .

Latt .

Your selues will not remember those purses of ours that you haue emptied with your compositions , and therfore merueile you not if they also forget yours . Haue yee not read in the Apocalips . Restore vnto her euen as she hath rendred vnto you , duble their dublinges according to their woorkes , euen in the pot they haue mingled for you mixe them duble , euen so much as they haue glorified and delighted themselues , so much giue them in tormentes and sorrow , because God is strong that hath iudged her . What thinke you , are not these the verie iudgementes of God ?

Arch.

My verie flesh doth tremble in hearing of it : But I pray you tell mee , wherefore or to what purpose serueth the losse and spoile of so much money , as it is said the sacke of Rome amounted vnto by ransomes and compositions aboue 15. millions of Ducades .

Latt .

What call you this spoile and losse ? in good faith I count it rather gaine .

Arch.

And why gaine ?

Latt .

Because for these manie yeares all the money of Christendome went to Rome , where it was consumed and lost , but now it is diuerted and found elsewhere .

Arch.

And which way ?

Latt .

The money it gat by pleas , by garboiles , by brables , by benefices , by pensions , by spoiles , by first fruites , by Buls , by indulgences , by confessionaries , by compositions , by dispensations , by excommunications , by curses , by fulminations , by agrauations and redagrauations , by connonizations , & such like exactions , the Souldiers haue taken as husbandmen and laborers to sowe round about the world .

Arch.

Oh blacke laborrers that serued to destroy Rome in such sort , as it will not turne to bee Rome againe these 500. yeares .

Latt .

O would to God that were so .

Arch.

What ?

Latt .

That Rome would not turne againe to those vices it had , nor that therein should raine no more so small charitie , and loue and feare of God .

Arch.

But what had the sacred pallace merited , and those Chambers and painted haules , that was the most lamentable sight in the World to see them made stables for horses and all thinges in them vtterly defaced .

Latt .

In deed sir you say well , and great reason it were that the whole Cittie suffering sacke and spoile , that place should be preserued , from whence all the ill councell proceeded .

Arch.

But then the Prince of the Apostles Church , and all the other Temples , Churches and Monasteries of Rome , who is able to recount how they were handled and raunsacked , so as there remained in them neither Gold nor siluer , nor other thing of valiew , but all was by those Souldiers robbed and spoiled , & is it possible that God can like that his owne Churches should be so handled and ransacked , and thinges to his honor dedicated , so robbed ?

Latt .

Surely sir this is a thing indeed so soule and wicked , as it cannot be but condemned of any . Neuerthelesse if yee looke well into it , yee shall finde euen in these thinges that haue bin dedicated to the seruice of God so much superstition , & the people therein so much abused , that I meruell not if God haue permitted this and much more to the end ther may be in those matters some moderation . The Marchant thinkes after hee hath gotten together an infinite quantitie of money , that all the ill hee hath done or shall doo shall be forgiuen him . If he build a church or a Monasterie , or giue a Lampe or a Challice to a Church : and in this also do they deceaue , that they seeme to giue that for Gods sake , which is rather for the most part giuen for a certaine pride , or for a certaine worldly vaine glory , as is manifest by the armes that commonly euery one putteth on the things they giue , and putting their trust in these thinges they thinke that now they neede no longer liue like Christians , and albeit this bee an extreame errour , yet are they not ashamed to admit it , so as thereby they make there profit by it , not considering in the meane time the iniurie they do to Christian Religion .

Arch.

And why an iniurie ?

Lattan .

Do you not thinke it an iniurie , yea and a verie great iniurie , that we being Christians and instructed from God himselfe should be ignorant of that knowledge , which manie Heathens onely by the light of naturall reason had attained of God . For they had atteined to this knowledge , that it was no true seruice of God to offer him any corruptible thing . They had atteined , that vnto a bodilesse substance such as God is , we ought not to offer anie bodilie thing for a principall offer , nor as a thing that should bee verie gratefull vnto him . They said that such knew not what thing God was , that supposed hee tooke pleasure in the possession of such thinges which many wise and good men thought a commendation in themselues to esteeme litle as Iewels and Ritches : And yet wee Christians are so blind as wee thinke our God is greatly serued with these corrupt and corporall matters .

Arch.

By this meanes you would haue men do no seruice to God , neither in building of Churches nor in offering Challeces , and such other ornaments .

Latt .

I say he doth better and more true seruice to God which fitteth his soule with such vertues as God commaundeth to the end he may come and dwell in him , then he that buildeth a church , yea though it were made of gold , and as great as that of Toledo for God to dwell in , when in the meane time by vices hee maketh God a stranger to his owne soule , albeit his intention therin were the best euen in the world : & I say that it is a verie great error to thinke that wee please God by offring Gold or Siluer when it is done with an intention to be praised for it , or for any other vaine respect . And I say that God is better serued if in steed of that wee giue vnto Churches which are but dead Temples , wee did bestow the same on the poore to relieue their necessities , seeing wee knowe they are the liuing Temples of God .

Arch.

By this reason wee should haue neither Churches nor any other ornaments to serue God .

Latt .

What should wee haue no Churches ? Yes surely I thinke wee should haue manie more Churches , for hauing many good Christians moe : of these any two or three being ioined together in his name should bee a Church , yea and besides that , although the lewde would not build Churches or Monasteries , thinke you that there would want good Men to doo it ? But let vs behold this vniuersall World , is it any thing else then a beautifull Church , wherein God dwelleth ? What is the Sunne but a Lampe lighted to shine vnto the Ministers of the Churche ? What is the Moone ? What bee the Starres , but Candles which burne in this Church of God . Would you your selfe desire another Church ? Doth not the Apostle saie , the Temple of God is holy , which you your selues are , would you haue other Candles to lighten this church , you haue the spirit , you haue vnderstanding , you haue reason , and do you not thinke that these be good Candels ?

Arch.

Yes but yet no man sees them .

Latt .

And you , haue you seene God ? Behold brother seeing God is indeed inuisible he wil be principally honored with things inuisible , God will not be paid or contented with gold nor with siluer , neither standeth in any need of these like things , seeing hee is Lord of all , he seeketh nothing but harts . Will you see this , Seeing God is omnipotent , If he would , could he not in a moment make an hundred thousand temples more sumptuous and more ritche then the temple of Solomon ?

Arch.

Yes that is cleere .

Latt .

I pray you what seruice should you do him then , in giuing that he hath alreadie , and not yeelding that vnto him which he requireth . Let vs see if God delight in Temples , if God delight in gold , if God delight in siluer , why dooth he not take all , since all is his .

Arch.

Marry sir , because he would haue vs of our owne good wils , to offer it , to the ende we might that way haue meane to merrit ?

Latt .

What merrit is it to giue vnto God that he least esteemeth , when ye will not render that he requireth .

Arch.

Now I perceaue you would not haue vs reteine the Churches we haue , nor that they should take ornaments .

Latt .

I say I would not haue these things doone for vaine glorie , neither would I that to honour a Church of stones , wee should leaue to honor the Church of God which is our soule , I would not , that to build an altar , we should forbeare to succour a poore bodie , or to repaire tables or dead images , we should leaue the poore naked , which be the liuely images of Iesus Christ , neither would I that we should lay so great a foundation on those things which we are not in any dutye bound to doe , neither yet that we should giue men to vnderstand , that the Lord is serued and pleased with the possession of these things , that euery wiseman contemneth and holdeth a praise in himselfe , not to esteeme . Tell me , whye did Iesus Christ contemne all the ritches and wealth of this world ?

Arch.

Because we should likewise by his example valew it as nothing .

Latt .

Why then do we seeke to present vnto him these things , as matters very pretious and gratefull , seeing himselfe we know contemned them , and would also that we should contemne them , and not rather take care to present our mindes and soules pure and cleere from all vices and sinnes , this being the most pretious and acceptable offering that we can present .

Arch.

I muse who should teach you so many arguments being yet so young .

Latt .

Then behold sir it hath pleased God therefore to suffer these churches to be thus robbed , that we might euidently know that he esteemeth as nothing all such things as may be robbed , neither yet dooth he esteeme any thing corruptible , to the end that heereafter we may rather present vnto him liuing then dead temples , And that we should offer vp vnto him hartes and wils before gold and siluer , and that we serue him with such things as he commaundeth , rather then with such vanitie .

Arch.

Yea tell mee a thing that I neuer heard of , but seeing it is so , tell mee howe and wherewith wee ought to serue him .

Latt .

This is an other matter a part , whereof we may conferre an other tune more at our good leisure , but nowe I praye you proceed on .

Arch.

Euen as you will , but what will you saye , that the very temples where God was woont to be serued and honoured , were become stables for Horsses , what a thing was it to see the verye Church of Saint Peter , both on the one side and the other , all full of Horses , euen to thinke of it , it breakes my harte .

Latt .

Certainelye , it was a thing that no good man could like of , and yet many times we see , that necessitie causeth things that by the lawe is prohibited , and in time of warre these and farre woorse matters are commonly doone , whereof they are in fault that are the cause of the warre .

Arch.

This is a gentle excuse .

Latt .

And why not , and doe you not also thinke that hee that draweth a greater and woorse filthinesse then that , into a place more holy then that , dooth hee not commit a greater abhomination .

Arch.

This is cleere .

Latt .

Then tell mee if you haue read the holy Scripture , haue yee not founde in it , that God dwelleth not in Temples builded with the handes of men , and that euery man is that temple wherein God dwelleth .

Arch.

Yes sometimes .

Latt .

Then tell me which should be the greater ill and abhomination to make a stable of those Temples of stone , where the Apostle saith God dwelleth not , or to make it of our soules , which are the true temples of God ?

Arch.

This is cleere , that of our soules were the woorse , but how can that be .

Latt .

Demaunde you howe , whye what call you a Stable ?

Arch.

A place where Beasts rest .

Latt .

But what call you Beasts ?

Arch.

Brute Beasts without reason .

Latt .

And are not vices brute and voide of reason .

Arch.

Yes without doubt , and much woorse then brute beasts .

Latt .

Thus is it manifest , that it is farre greater abhomination to bring vices that are much woorse then brute Beasts , into the Soule which is the true Temple where God dwelleth , then to bring horses into a Church of stone .

Arch.

Surely I thinke that true .

Latt .

Heereby may you now knowe , how blinde your vnderstanding was in Rome , that meeting daily by the streetes , men that manifestly had their soules the stables of vices , of that you made no accoumpt , and because you sawe in case of necessitie , horsses in the Church of Saint Peter , you thought it an horrible abhomination , and broke your hart to thinke on it , And yet your harte was neuer broken , to see such multitude of Soules full of such filthie and abhominable sinnes , and God by whome they were made and redeemed , banished out of them , surely your religion is a gentle religion .

Arch.

You haue great reason , but yet consider I praye you , that which Saint Paule spake , that God dwelleth not in Temples made with handes of men , was to be vnderstanded of that time , wherein he spake it , for since and now in our Temples the Sacrament abideth .

Latt .

You say truth , but haue not you confessed vnto me that vices are woorse then beasts .

Arch.

Yea and so I say still .

Latt .

Why then , he that bringeth into the Church a heard of vices that are worse then Beasts , is hee not worse then he that bringeth into the church a troope of Horsses .

Arch.

It seemes so to me , but these beasts are inuisible .

Latt .

What ? will you say that God cannot see mens vices .

Arch.

Yes God can see them , but men cannot , but these horsses we may all see .

Latt .

By this reason ye would make it a lesse abhomination to offend God then men , and then yee would excuse the offence committed in appearing before God , so burdened with wickednesse , because men see it not , you aggrauate greatly the putting of Horses into the Church , in that time of necessitie , because they are visible vnto men . But marke sir I pray you , God is not offended with the bad sauors wherewith men are offended , The Soule wherein vices are rooted , that is it wherewith God is offended , and therefore hee requireth that this soule bee most cleere of vices and sinnes , and many times he hath so commaunded vs . And therefore yee take all things the wrong way : ye take great care to keepe neate and cleane the materiall Temples , and the true Temple of God which is your soules , you keepe it so full of vices and abhominable sinnes , that they neither see God , nor know what thing he is .

Arch.

Now as God saue me you haue the greatest reason in the world , but if you had seene the Souldiers how they carried along the streetes , the poore Nunnes taken out of their monasteries , and other Virgins taken out of their Fathers houses you would haue had the greatest compassion in the world .

Latt .

This is a matter so common among Souldiers and men of warre , that albeit in mine opinion , it be indeed much more greeuous then all the rest ioyned together , we make scarslie any accoumpt of it , as if it were not worse to defile a Virgin , which is the liuing temple , where Iesus Christ dwelleth , then a church of stone or wood , wherefore the fault heereof must not onely bee laid to the charge of those Souldiers , but much more vnto you , who began and raised this warre , and were the cause that they haue done that they did : verelye if the warre were cause of no other ill then this , euen for this alone you ought to leaue it .

Arch.

The Registers and Records of the Apostolike Chamber , of the Buls and supplications , and those of the Notaries and processe are all destroied and defaced .

Lattan .

Those I thinke surely God did permit , that together with vice wee should giue ouer all sutes and pleas for matters Ecclesiasticall . For seeing these benefices are exequuted by Clarks , and the first & chiefe charter of a Clarke should be charity , how doth he hold charity that goeth to sute with his neighbor ?

Arch.

And why not ?

Latt .

Because that charitie is of that nature , that if it met with any of these suites , it would rather loose the benefice then stand in controuersie with his neighbor .

Arch.

This were verie perfection .

Lattan .

And so should all the Clergie bee men of such perfection .

Arch.

All men cannot attaine to this perfection , but I pray you whereupon should so manie Auditors , Proctors , Aduocats , registers , and other officers feed , if there were no sutes & pleas ?

Lat.

Let them be Tailors , Waterbearers and Cowkeepers , and not defrawd vs vtterly of all Christian charitie .

Arch.

And this is a gentle charitie of yours that so honorable persons should take so base occupations , but I pray you what should we do with the sutes alreadie commenced ?

Latt .

Let the benefice be bestowed on the most worthy of them that are in sute for it , or taken from them both , and giuen to a more worthie , and that could deserue it better .

Arch.

By this meanes we should haue no Iustice .

Latt .

Yes much more Iustice , for benefices should be bestowed on such persons , as should do that they were ordeined for .

Arch.

And now do they not their duties ?

Latt .

No surely , for these benefices are the goods of the poore , and while you wast them in brables among Proctors and Doctors , the poore die for want .

Arch.

Ye haue manie indeed that spend their liuings that way and some much woorse , as your selfe I know can be a good witnes . But whom would you haue to be the Iudge of the sufficiency or insufficiency of Clarkes to giue or take from them their benefices .

Latt .

Euerie Bishop in his owne Dioces , so as they would better examine and know the persons .

Arch.

Well , but yee haue many Bishops that haue not learning ynough , nor knowledge to do this .

Latt .

And therein is there another sinne committed , for such should not be admitted to be Bishops , but other persons therto deputed that were able .

Arch.

Will yee haue me tell you the truth , euen that way too all would goe by fauour .

Latt .

Thinke not so there are a number of wise Bishops and men of good conscience , and others would follow their example . And in trueth I thinke this would bee the best remedie till there be some other more perfect reformation in the Church .

Arch.

And for pleas that are vppon seculer matters , what would you haue done ?

Latt .

If I were a Prince I would either deuide it betweene them , or giue it all to the woorthiest and honestest .

Arch.

Do you not see that hereby you would peruert and ouerthrow all Iustice ?

Lattan .

Will you haue me tell you my minde plainely , God created all thinges for the vse and seruice of man , but the administration thereof rather to one man then an other , because they should bestow them where most neede was , and it is good reason that such as haue impart with such as want . And it is good Iustice , that hee haue the administration of most , that best knowes how to vse them , and contrarie manifest iniustice .

Arch.

By this meanes you would goe about to make a new world .

Latt .

No , but I would establish the good , and remooue the quite out of it .

Arch.

So long might I liue till you had gone through with such an enterprise .

Latt .

God sende the Emperour Charles life , and then shall you see whether he will goe through withal .

Arch.

But tarrie , for yet haue yee not heard all . Neuer since the Emperours Armie entred Rome , till the time that I departed , which was the twelfth of Iune , there was not a Masse said in Rome , nor all that time heard we a bell Ring , nor a Clocke .

Latt .

The bad became little better by hearing of Masse when they did it without deuotion or reuerence , and the good would doo that in Spirite , which they coulde not doo with their Body , but how chaunceth the Priestes and Friers would saie no Masse ?

Arch.

By God , and that is a gentle question . Did not I tell you at the beginning there was not a Priest or Frier in Rome that durst shew himselfe in other garmentes then such of a Soldiers as I were ?

Latt .

And why so ?

Arch.

Because the Almanes so soone as they saw a Frier , or a Priest in the steetes they would giue the woord and crie out , a Pope , a Pope , kill , kill .

Latt .

As God shall helpe me I do now remember , that when I was in Rome , there were manie Prophesies that foretold of this persequution of the Clergy , and that it should be euen in this Emperours time .

Arch.

That is indeed most true ?

Latt .

And why then would you not amend ?

Arch.

Why ? who would then haue beleeued that it should haue prooued true ?

Latt .

That would any man that had well considered the state of all thinges at Rome .

Archd.

But besides all this , there was such an extreame stinke in all the Churches , that no man could endure to tarrie in them .

Latt .

A stinke and whereof ?

Arch.

The Souldiers had opened many Sepultures hoping to haue found treasure in them , but after they were opened they found nothing but the dead Carkasses .

Latt .

Was it not much that you suffered of that perfume in telling of the money that yee exacted for burying of the dead .

Arch.

Now you are disposed to iest .

Latt .

No in good faith but I tell you truth , that seeing you of the Clergie were not ashamed to take tribute of the dead , a thing that euen among the Gentils was held most foule , as litle should you haue lothed to haue entred to haue praied to God for them .

Arch.

Well you thought yee had done , but there remaineth yet woorse matter for you to resolue , for I haue kept the woorst , and most grieuous for the last .

Latt .

Well tell it me .

Arch.

They left no Reliques vnsackt , and spared not to take the Gold and Siluer with their sacrilegious handes , wherewith those Reliques were couered , that it was the most horrible abhomination in the world to see these Raskals to enter those places , whereunto Bishops , yea Cardinals , yea the Popes themselues scarsly durst enter : And to take those heads and armes of the Apostles and of the happie saintes , I cannot imagin what good could grow vnto Christendome by such an abhominable boldnes and contempt .

Latt .

Surely it was in deede a foule action , but I pray you tell me after they had taken the Gold and Siluer , what did they with the bones ?

Arch.

The Almanes threw them downe , some in the Church yard , some in the holy Field , others drew them to the howses of the Prince of Orenge and other Captaines , and the Spaniards as the people most religious drew them all to the house of Iohn de Vrbina .

Latt .

What , so dispoiled ?

Arch.

See what you doubt , I my selfe saw one basketfull in the house of the same Iohn de Vrbina .

Latt .

And do you take this for the most hainous ?

Arch.

This is cleere .

Latt .

But come hether , is not one bodie liuing woorth an hundred dead ?

Arch.

Yes .

Latt .

Then much more grieuous was the death of those 4. thousand men which you speak of , then the sacke of these Reliques .

Arch.

And why so ?

Latt .

Because the Reliques are dead bodies , and the men were liuing , and your selfe haue alreadie acknowledged , that one such is woorth an hundred of the other .

Arch.

You say true , but these were the bodies of holie men , and so were not the other .

Latt .

So much the woorse , for the soules of these saints feele not the bad handling of their bodies , they being now in blisse : but these wicked ones dying in sinne goe to hell , and so perish both Soule and bodie .

Archb.

It is as you say , but neuerthelesse it is an horrible thing that in our daies we should see such a bolde and outragious action .

Latt .

Surely so it is , and yet is it not without cause , that God hath suffered it , for the deceipts were great that they vsed with these Reliques to beguile the simple people , and to get their money from them , for yee haue many Reliques that they will shew you in two or three seuerall places , as if you goe to Dura in Almanie , they will there shewe you the head of Saint Anne , the mother of our Ladye , and the very same they will shew you also at Lyons in Fraunce , So that manifest it is that one or both are false , vnlesse they would haue vs beleeue also that our Ladie had two mothers , or Saint Anne two heads . And one or bothe these being counterfait , is it not a great wickednesse thus to deceiue the people , and to worship a dead carkasse that perhaps was of some theefe hanged . But tell me which thinke you to be the greatest inconuenience , either that we should want the body of Saint Anne , or that vnder pretence of that relique , they should make you worship the carkasse of some common woman .

Arch.

Surely I had rather there should neither be that relique nor any other , then that they should make me worship a Sinner insteed of a Saint .

Latt .

Nay would you not rather that these bodies of Saint Anne , at Dura and Lyons , were put in a Sepulture and neuer shewed , then that so many people should be abused by them ?

Arch.

Yes surely .

Latt .

And of this sort , yee had an infinite number of Reliques in the world , and little should be our losse , if we had none of them at all , and would to God the inconueniences were so remedied . The foreskin of our Sauiour cut off in circumcision , I haue seene in Rome and in Burgos , and the very same they will shew you also at our Ladies Church in Antwerpe . Likewise the head of Saint Iohn Baptist , yee may see both in Rome and at Amians in Fraunce . But the Apostles if we will count them , albeit there were indeed but twelue , and one of them not to be found , and an other in the Indians , yet shall we find aboue 24. of them in our part of the world . The Nayles of the crosse Eusebius writes were three , and one of them Saint Hellen the mother of the Emperour Constantine threw into the Adriatike sea to asswage a tempest , an other she caused to be cast into an helmet for her Sonne , and of the third she caused a bridle to be made for her horse , and yet haue you in Rome one , and an other in Millaine , and an other in Coloine , and an other in Paris , and an other in Lyons , and I wot not how many elsewhere , Then for the crosse , if all the peeces which they shew thereof through Christendome , were gathered together , yee should haue wood inough to lade a Charects . And of the teeth that Christ changed when he was a Child , euen in Fraunce alone ye haue at least fiue hundred . Then of the milke of our Lady , of the heyre of Marie Magdelen , and the teeth of Saint Christopher , there are reliques innumerable . And then euen of the vncertentie of these things , it is a great shame to see and heare what themselues giue out to the people . My selfe last day in a very auncient Abbey was shewed a table of their Reliques , and there amongst other things it named a peece of the Riuer of Cedron . I demaunded whether it were of the water or of the Stones of the Riuer , they tould mee I must not iest at their Reliques , an other was of the earth , wherevpon the Angel did appeare to the Shepheards , but I durst not aske them what they ment thereby . If I should tell you of a number of their rediculous and impious things which they will tell they haue . As of the wing of Saint Gabriell , of the penitence of Mary Magdalen , the breath of the Mule and Oxe , of the shadow of the staffe of Saint Iames , of the doublet of the Trinitie : a number of other things like to these . It were inough to make vs burst with laughing . Onely I will tell you , how within these fewe dayes in a collegiall Church they shewed me a ribbe of the holye Sauiour , whether they haue anye other sauiour then Iesus Christe , or whether he left any ribbe heere behind them , let them looke .

Arch.

These things indeed , as you say , are rather to be laught at then lamented .

Latt .

You haue reason , and therefore I come to the other things which be vncertaine , yea and if they were certaine , yet are they stumbling blocks , to make a man commit Idolatrie , for they cause vs to hold them in so great reuerence , as euen in Aquisgrane , albeit they haue no other relique but a paire of olde breeches , which they say were S. Iosephs , which they shew not but euery fiue yeeres once , there goeth thether an infinit number of people to behold them , as a thing diuine , and of these matters we make so great accoumpt , as if in one Church on the one side there stande in a shrine of Gold the slippers of saint Christopher , and on the other side the holy Sacrament , the people will rather choose to go say their praiers before the slippers of S. Christopher then before the sacrament , and this being so great a wickednesse , they doe not onely , not reprooue it , but most willingly admit and allow it , in respect of the great profit they gather by it , and the fine deuises they haue inuented for it . Let vs see then which were the greater inconuenience , either to haue no reliques at all in the world , or to haue men thus abused by them ?

Arch.

I cannot tell , neither would I trouble my head with these profound matters .

Latt .

And how profound , which thinke you of greatest valew , either the soule of some simple bodie , or the body of a Saint .

Arch.

This is out of question , that a soule is much better then a body .

Latt .

Why then what reason haue you ( in seeking to honor the body of some saints , as they say , which perhaps notwithstanding is the boddy of some theefe ) to put in perrill so many soules ?

Arch.

You say the trueth , and therefore may they very well thereof admonish the ignorant and simple sort .

Latt .

Very well , and yet euen these that should admonish are many times themselues ignorant , And yet besides all this , why should you put any one soule in danger without necessitie . Let vs see if you would in this Towne goe to our Ladies church of Prado , and knew not the waye , would you not thinke it a verye great inhumanity , if any man would direct you through the Riuer with greate daunger to drowne you therein , when you might more safelye and more quickelye haue gone ouer by the Bridge .

Arch.

Yes surely .

Latt .

And wherefore then do you seeke after Reliques ?

Arch.

Because many times they stir me to deuotion .

Latt .

And deuotion to what end desire you ?

Arch.

To salue my soule .

Latt .

Seeing then you may saue your Soule without perill of damning it , woulde you not rather choose the more safe waie .

Arch.

Yes , and our confessors also say it is a sinne for vs wittingly to put our selues in danger to sinne .

Latt .

They say therein the very truth .

Arch.

But yet what way haue you of greater safetie ?

Latt .

The same which Christ himselfe taught , to loue God aboue all things , and to put in him our whole trust .

Arch.

You say the truth . But because I cannot do that , I go about to doe this other .

Latt .

This is a great heresie to say you cannot do it , desire at least of God grace to doe it . But if you will say you do request it , and that God will not doe it , you make God a lyar , who saith , Aske and you shall haue , And farther what a blindnesse is this , doe you thinke to goe to heauen without fulfilling of the commaundements of God ? albeit you haue an Arme of a Saint , or the peece of the Crosse , or the whole Crosse in your house , you may be an enemie to the crosse , and doe you thinke to saue your selfe by the Crosse ?

Arch.

Surely I was deceiued .

Latt .

Then behold the common sort haue so much more iust cause to complaine on them that lead them into these and such other like superstitions , to put them in danger of their soules , then you of him that should guide you through the riuer with danger to drowne you , as the soule is more worthie then the bodie .

Arch.

Well but yet the common sort are more easilye by things visible induced and directed to the inuisible .

Latt .

You say truely , and therefore hath Iesus Christ left vs his holye sacrament of the Altar , and hauing this , I knowe not wherefore we haue need of any other .

Arch.

And the true reliques indeed , would you not haue them kept and garnished with Gold and Siluer .

Latt .

No surely .

Arch.

Wherefore .

Latt .

Not to giue occasion of such another spoile , as this of Rome , nor yet to make men thinke , that the Saints are pleased to possesse these things , that those which are good men do glory to contemne .

Arch.

You say well , but doe you not see yet that the Saints may be offended with vs for taking away the Golde and siluer , wherein their bones be inclosed , and being so offended , may doe vs some hurt ?

Latt .

No , rather I thinke they would be verie well pleased to see those thinges taken and imploied on the poore , who many times perish for famin not hauing what to eate .

Arch.

That vnderstand not I vnlesse you explaine your meaning better .

Latt .

I wil shew you plainly , that Saint which whilest hee liued in this world , and had need of these goods , did neuerthelesse leaue them and empart them to the poore for the loue of Christ Iesu , do you not beleeue that much more he would be pleased , to haue the same done now after his death when he hath no cause at all to vse them ?

Arch.

Yes surely I think so , for wee that be no Saintes , yet when we die , and cannot carrie our goods with vs , wee are well pleased to giue them to the poore , and to deuide them among Churches and Monasteries .

Lattan .

Why then tell mee wherefore should you thinke a Saint should bee greeued to haue that done with his goods now hee is dead , which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue .

Arch.

No surely I thinke a Saint would be verie wel pleased to see that done with his goods now he is dead , which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue .

Latt .

Then you see plainly , that the Saintes who while they liued were so wel pleased to distribute their owne goods among the poore would now much more bee pleased to helpe the poore with that siluer and gold which good people haue presented vnto them after they were dead .

Arch.

So God saue me this reason is verie good , and I beleeue you say herein also the verie truth , and yet surely the common sort would be offended .

Lattan .

No on my faith I dare assure you there would bee no offence taken , if it were prouided that such superstitious people as regarded more theire Bellye , then the Glorie of Christ Iesus shoulde not goe aboute to prouoke them to offence .

Arch.

Surely for this matter I hold my selfe fullie satisfied .

Lattan .

Thus you see how Iesus Christ hath suffred that in Rome so greate a Sacke and spoile should bee committed on Reliques , to remedie the dec●iptes that were committed by them .

Archde .

Well , this I confesse , so as you will also declare vnto mee touching the small reuerence vsed towardes the Images , what the reason should bee that God would suffer that .

Latt .

That I will tell you , neither will I denie that it was verie ill done , but God hath permitted it not without verie great cause , For you may see among the common people , yea , and euen among many of the principall persons also , that they did so muche repose themselues vppon Images , and thinges visible , that they had no care at all of the inuisible . In my Countrey a verie good Man , a Deuine , going a visitation of a Bishopricke in the behalfe of the Bishoppe , founde in one Church an Image of our Ladie , which they saide did manie Miracles , and was set ouer against an Altar of the Sacrament ( in comparison whereof all Images in the Worlde are lesse then nothing ) And yet thereunto might you see them kneeling and knocking of their breastes before that Image of our Ladie . The good man when hee saw so great an Ignominie , as was thereby done to our Sauiour Iesus Christ , conceiued so great a griefe as hee tooke away that Image and brake it into peeces . The people so much were mooued with this act , that they would haue killed him , but GOD deliuered him out of theire handes . The Clergie of that Churche beeing offended for theire rentes , that thereby they had lost , trauelled with the people to complaine to the Bishop , thinking he would presently send to burne the poore visitator . The Bishoppe ( like a wise Man ) vnderstanding the matter how it passed , reprooued the Visitor of the contempt hee had committed in breaking the Image into peeces , but commended much his act in remoouing it from that place , so that seeing there was so fewe such good Visitors in Christendome , that would be agreeued with the dishonour done to GOD , and to take away such superstitious , God permitted these Souldiers to commit that spoile you speake of , to the ende that leauing all superstition wee should in such sorte honor Images , as wee do not dishonor Iesus Christ .

Archd.

Surely this is a most Godlie consideration and farther I promise you , there is great need of remedie in this matter especially in Italie .

Latt .

Nay , euen here also aswell as there : And if you will looke well into this matter , you shal see the verie same deceipts in Images that were in Reliques .

Archde .

I knowe you saye truely , but I coulde tell you of another matter , that euen in thinking of it my fleshe trembleth .

Latt .

Tell it mee , and be not afraid .

Arch.

Can you imagine a greater wickednesse , then to breake open the Pixe of the Altar , and to let faule on the ground the holie Sacrament ? Is it possible any good can come of this ? Oh Christian eares that can endure to heare it .

Latt .

Good God and haue you seene this too ?

Arch.

No , but surely all men say it was so .

Latt .

That which I haue heard was that a Souldier tooke the Pixe of Gold and left the sacrament vppon the Altar , and did not throw it down on the ground as you say , but howsoeuer , it was a meruellous boldnesse , and woorthie of great correction : but in truth it is no new matter , but a thing that happeneth many times amonge Souldiers , and the fault is theirs which choose rather to liue in warre then in peace . But if it had neuer bin heard of before do you think this to be the greatest abhomition that could be done ? think you that it were not much woorse to throw it into a dunghill ?

Arch.

How ? into a dunghill .

Lattan .

I will tell you , but first tell mee which stinketh woorst before GOD , a deade Dogge that lieth vpon a Doung hill , or a Soule that obstinatelye continueth in his sinnes .

Arch.

A Soule , for Saint Augustine saith , Quod tollerabilius fetet , Canis putridus hominibus , quam anima peccatrix Deo .

Latt .

Then you will not deuie me that a sinful soule is a foule filthie dunghill .

Arch.

No surely .

Lattan .

Seeing then a Priest that rising in the Morning from his Queane ( that I saye no woorse ) of course goeth to say Masse . A Prieste , I saye , that holdes his Benefice by Symmonye , and carrieth in his hart mortall rancor against his neighbour , that by right or wrong will heape vp ritches , becomming obstinate in these and other vices , yea in much more woorse then these goe euerie daie to receaue the Sacrament , do you not thinke that to let it fall in such an one , is muche woorse then to let it fall into a stinkinge Dounghill ?

Arch.

You talke to mee in a new language , I know not what to answere you .

Lattan .

I meruell not though truth seeme to you a new language : But behold now how this is the cause that God hath suffered these things to be done , that Clarkes seeing how great abhomination it is to handle in this sort the Bodie of Christ might thereby knowe and remember that themselues haue handled it muche woorse , that departing from their wicked manner of liuinge , they might clense their Soules from vices , and beautifye it with Vertues , that Christe might come to dwell in them , and not to keepe him as they doe , bannished from them :

Arch.

Now as God saue me you haue verie well satisfyed me in all my doubtes , and I was euen now meruelling to see how blinded all men were in these externall thinges without hauing regard to the internall .

Lattan .

You haue verie great reason to meruell , for in verie truth it is a great pittie to see the false opinions wherein the common sorte are drowned , and howe backwarde wee are to become Christians , and howe contrarie our woorkes are to the Doctrine of Christ Iesus , and howe wee are burthened with Superstitions , and in mine opinion all proceede from a pestiferous Auarice and pestilent Ambition which at this time raigneth much more among Christians , then in any other time : to what purpose do you thinke , do they perswade the people that an Image of Woode goeth to recouer Prisoners , and returnes all sweating , but onelie to allure the simple sort to make offeringes to that Image , to make thereof their owne profit , neither haue they anie feare of GOD in this sorte to abuse and deceaue the people , as thoughe our Ladie had no other meane to redeeme Prisoners , but to take with her a woodden Image . And albe it , this bee a most ridiculous thinge , yet do the common people by reason of their authoritte beleeue it , and in this manner they make men also beleeue , that if they cause so many masses to be said , with so many candles , at the second sorrow that you shall recouer that you haue lost , O wretched sinner , knowest thou not that in this superstition this cannot but bee a worke of the diuell , And were it not better thou shouldest loose all that thou hast in the world , then that thou shouldest introduce into a thing so holy , a thing so wicked . Euen of like accoumpt are these names , which you carry about your necks to escape death by fire , by water , and the handes of enemyes , enchantments and charmes made as the common people call them for men and beasts , I cannot imagine how we came into so great a blindnesse , that wee are falne into a manner of Gentillitie . He that will seeke to honour a Saint , should trauaile to follow his holy vertue , but now in liewe thereof , wee chase Buls vpon his daye , besides many other abuses which are committed , we say and hold it a great deuotion , to kill foure Buls vpon S. Bartholmewes day , and if we kill them not , we are afraide that he will spoile our Vines , what greater gentilitye can you wish then this ? what is it lesse to hould deuotion in killing foure Buls on his daie , then to sacrifice foure Buls vnto S. Bartholmew ? I doe not thinke it ill , that the people for recreation should assemble , chase , and kill Buls on that day , but I thinke surelye that it is a wicked thing , to thinke that by such acts we please God or his Saints : for in truth betweene killing of Buls with such intent , and sacrificing of Buls , I know no difference . Will you see another Heathenish custome , as plaine as this , Behold how we haue deuided among our Saints euen the very same offices that the gods of Paynims had , insteed of Mars we haue S. Iames and S. George . In liew of Neptune , S. Elmas . In liew of Bacchus , S. Martine . Insteed of Aeolus , S. Barbola . in liew of Venus , Magedelena . The charge of Esculapius we haue parted among many , S. Cosme , and S. Daman haue charge of common disceases , S. Roque and S. Sebastian of the pestilence , S. Lucie of the eyes , S. Polonya of the teeth , S. Aquida the Dugges , and of the other side S. Antony and S. Aloy of Beasts , S. Simon & Iudas of false witnesses , and S. Blas of those that neese , I knowe not to what end these inuentions serue , and this distribution of offices , but to make vs appeare altogether Paynims , & to abandon the loue and trust which in Christ alone we ought to repose , tormoiling our selues in seeking such helpe of others , as he alone is able to giue vs , and thereof it also commeth , that some thinke because they recite a heape of Psalmes , or a flocke of Rosarys : others because they weare the habit of a Merced . Others because they eate no flesh on wensdaies : others because they are cloathed in Blew or yellow , that thereby they want nothing of perfect Christians , reteining neuerthelesse their enuie still , their ranckor , their auarice , and their ambition , and other vices , as entirely as if they had neuer heard what it is to a Christian .

Arch.

And whence proceeds this as you thinke .

Latt .

Naye enter me not into this Laborinth , more perrilous I thinke then that of Creta , let that alone for an other daye , and tell me if in your opinion I haue accomplished as much as at the beginning I promised .

Arch.

I say you haue performed it so fully , that I hould all well emploied that I haue lost in Rome , and all the troubles and trauailes I haue susteined in this iourney , seeing I haue thereby gained such a day as this , wherein me thinkes I haue shaken off from my selfe a pestiferous cloude of abhominable blindnesse and recouered the sight of the eyes of my vnderstanding , which I had lost euer since I was borne .

Latt .

Seeing then you knowe this , giue thankes vnto God , and endeuour your selfe not to bee vngratefull for the same , and considering you remaine satisfied of all doone there , it were reason you did also recount vnto me that which passed at Rome vntill your departure .

Arch.

That shall I doe with a verye good will : you are to vnderstand , that after the Armie entred into Rome , they placed a Guarde on the Castell , that none should passe out nor in , and the Pope knowing the euident perrill he stood in , and the small regarde those Souldiers had of him he determined to take some composition with the Emperours Captaines , and therefore sent to parle with Iohn Bartlemew de Gateuera , Regent of Naples , and gaue him certaine conditions , wherevpon he was contented to render himselfe , to the end that on his parte he might offer them to the Captaines of the armie : and although that in going too & to procure this agreement , he were shot throuh the Arme out of the Castell with an Harquebuze , yet before the end of fiue dayes after , the armie entred Rome , the capitulation was concluded and signed on either parte . Neuerthelesse in this meane time the Pope receiuing news how the armie of the legars came to aide him he would not haue that agreement executed .

Latt .

Now surely , this me thinks was one of the most wicked things of all , ye haue yet told me , had not poore Rome already suffered enough for his sake , but that he must endeuour vtterlye to destroye it . If the Armie of the Legars should come , it was to succour him , it was cleere , they must fight with our Army , and thereby great slaughter must ensue on either side , if then ours did vanquish , the Pope and his partie should fall into greater perill , but if these did conquere them , must Rome be new sacked , why then had it not beene better to haue taken any accord , rather then hauing before seene so great mischiefe , to be yet the cause of many more murders of people , and of a new destruction .

Arch.

Surely you haue great reason , and much lesse inconueniences had it been to haue accepted any conclution , then the damage that must haue ensued by he succour of the Leagers . But so soone as the Emperours Armie knew of this , they presentlye marched out of the Towne into the field , with resolution to fight , But the Legars durst not come of the Island , where they had remained certaine dayes , and the Castell still helde out , hoping on that succour , or at least that some discord might fall out in the Emperours Armie the Generall being dead . But they ceased not all this while to make their Mines and trenches to winne the Castell , yea albeit the Prince of Orange that then remained the cheefe commaunder , were also hurt with a shot . Then came Cardinall Collona , with the Lords Vespasian and Ascaino Collonna , and they did remedie some parte of the euils that were committed . There came also the Viceroy of Naples , and Don Hugo di Moncada , and the Marquesse of Guasto , and the Lord of Alorcan , and many other commaunders and Knights , with the Souldiers of the kingdome of Naples . And although in the meane time there ceased not shooting from the Castell , yet in the end the Pope vnderstanding that the Legars armye returned , and that there was no hope to bee succoured from them , hee accorded for to render vp the Castell into the Emperour his hands , with these conditions , that all the people within the Castell should goe freelye whether they woulde , not taking anye thing that was within the Castell , And for ransome of theyr persons and goods , the Pope promised to giue 14. hundred thousand Duccats to pay the Souldiers .

Latt .

And howe so , was it not inoughe that they had robbed before ?

Arch.

Yes sure it was enough , but that mought not be reckoned any part of their paye . And for securitie heereof , the Pope gaue them in pledge that good Creature Iohn Marte Gibberto , Bishop of Verona , with three other Bishops , and Iacob Salimato , with other two Merchants of Florence . And besides all this , consented to leaue in the Emperours power , till such time as they might knowe what his Maiestie would commaund ) the Castell Angelo and Ostia , and Ciuita Vechia , with the hauen : and promised also to deliuer the Citties of Parma and Placentia and Modena , And his Holinesse with the 13. Cardinals that were in the Castell , went to the kingdom of Naples , euen from thence to go see the Emperour .

Latt .

Surelye this was a good meane to doe some good in Christendome .

Arch.

So was it , but to tell you the trueth , albeit they desired it should bee so reported ( because they thought it ill to hold the Pope and Colledge of Cardinals against their will ) they sayd it was their desire , but in Conclusion they were gentill Prisoners .

Latt .

What say you then , that himselfe desired not to goe to Naples ?

Arch.

Yes but all this was but to make a vertue of necessitie , for seeing he sought to stay so many daies in hope of succour from the Legars , do you not thinke , that if he mought haue been at his owne choise , he would not haue beene rather in the Armye of the Legars , then where he now is .

Latt .

I cannot deny vnto you , but it is very likely , but what can you tell if afterwards he changed his minde .

Arch.

Now certeinly I cannot tell , but I beleeue it not , neither doe I thinke it well , that the head of the Church should be handled in this manner .

Latt .

Let vs see then , is not a man that may auoyde mischiefe bound to doe it .

Arch.

Who doubts that ?

Latt .

Should not hee bee blame worthie , that should giue another cause to doe ill .

Arch.

He should be in the same fault , for Qui causam damni dat , damnum dedisse videtur :

Latt .

You say verie well , then behold , the Pope either is there with his will , or against his will : if with his will , then is all well that you complaine of , but if against his will , then tell me wherfore would hee bee with the Armie of the Leagers .

Arch.

Why that s plaine to reuenge himselfe of the insolency and hurtes he had receaued .

Latt .

Let vs then see what would haue falne out .

Arch.

What could haue ensued but much discord , wars , murders , and damage through Christendome .

Latt .

Then to auoid these so apparant mischiefs , do you not thinke it better that hee should bee in the power of the Emperor then elswhere , albeit hee should bee there against his will , according to that we talked of before touching the Sunne that kept his Father tied : and if the Emperour would haue let him goe where himselfe liste , should not the euilles haue beene iustlye imputed to the Emperor that would haue ensued , seeing hee gaue the cause thereof .

Arch.

I confesse this too , but what will all both great & small say , but that the Emperour holdes the Pope and Cardinals prisoners .

Latt .

This will ignorant persons say , whose iudgement it is impossible to satisfie , whereas the wise and prudent knowing it to bee for the good of Christendome , that the Pope should remaine in the power of the Emperour , will hold it , and account it verie wel done , and wil highly praise , the vertue and wisedome of his Maiestie , yea euen all Christendome may thinke themselues perpetuallie bounden for it .

Arch.

As for mee I could bee well content that he should bee wheresoeuer yee would haue him , so as they would giue me the possession of my benefices , but I cannot tell whether you consider how they stand excommunicate .

Latt .

And why so ?

Arch.

Because they haue apprehended and hold against his will the chiefe Pastor of the Church .

Latt .

Behold sir hee standes excommunicate that with a wicked meaning wil not obey the Church . But hee that for the common weale of all Christendome deteineth the people , and wil not let him lose , onely to auoid the euils which would follow vppon his deliuery . Beleeue mee hee doth not onely stand not excommunicate , but also meriteth much at Gods handes for it .

Archd.

Surely this is a thing verie likely and reasonable , but I know not whether our Cannonists would graunt you this .

Latt .

That Cannonist that will not graunt this , shall shew himselfe void of iudgement .

Arch.

I beleeue so too , but at one thing I was verie greatly displeased , that the Pope should presently giue pardon to all the Soldiers of all whatsoeuer they had done .

Latt .

And why are you agreeued at that ?

Arch.

Because they remaine all ritch and pardoned , and wee bewailing our losses and sorrowes .

Latt .

Do you thinke that pardon of valiew ? as much did hee to the Collonesi , hee pardoned them first but after destroied them . A gentle kind of pardon .

Archd.

I cannot tell what I may beleeue , but that their soules were absolued , and their purses damned .

Latt .

Why then did you not stand against it ?

Arch.

Yes , euen there about wee went to leaue our Skinne with our goods , thinges stood then in these tearmes , that you would pardon all past for that that was to come , if you had seene the Pope as I saw him .

Latt .

Where ?

Arch.

In the Castle .

Latt .

And why went you thether ?

Arch.

Ther were certaine benefices falne in my Countrey by the death of an neighbour of mine , and I went to demaund them .

Latt .

An extraordinarie boldnesse was this surely : Were you not ashamed in such a time to importune him with sutes ?

Arch.

No surelie , for a shamefast man the Deuill will soone chase out of the Pallace , and manie more were there to begge them aswell as I , and sure I had as leeue preuent as bee preuented .

Latt .

Well , I tell you againe , that most terrible is the Auarice of the Clergie .

Arch.

A wonderous matter I promise you : and wherefore do you suppose , do wee of the Clergie come to Rome ?

Latt .

I thought it had beene for deuotion .

Arch.

Yes iwis , nowe surelye I was neuer in my life lesse deuoute .

Latt .

Nor yet lesse a Christian .

Arch.

Well Sir , euen as it please you so let it be .

Latt .

On my word , if I had beene Pope you should not haue benefices onely for early rising , seeing that after so notable a persequution , you had not left your couetousnesse .

Arch.

Yea euen for this is God very good , that he would not giue vs you , but Clement the 7. who gaue it me presently with a very good will , although I went in the habit of a Souldier as you see me .

Latt .

Nowe I promise you this was euen an immesurable clemencie , but tell me how found you him .

Arch.

I found both him and all the rest of the Cardinals and others about him , so sad and sorrowfull , that euen in beholding of them , the teares burst out of mine eyes , He that had seene him goe in his triumphe with so many Cardinals , Bishops , protonotaries a foote , and himselfe caried in a seat borne by men , bestowing vpon vs all his holy blessings , that he seemed euen a thing diuine : and now to see him solitarye , sad , afflicted , comfortlesse , committed to a Castle , and that aboue all , is in the power and handes of his ennemies , and besides all this , to see the Bishops and other persons Ecclesiasticall that came to visite him to be all in Souldiers apparell , and that euen in Rome the head of the Church should not haue a man that durst go in the habit of an ecclesiasticall person : I know not what hart can bee so indurate , that hearing these things , should not bee persed with compassion .

Latt .

Immeasurable God how profound are thy iudgements ? with how great clemencye dost thou suffer vs ? with howe great goodnes dost thou call vs ? with how great patience dost thou tarrie vs ? whilst that we with the continuation of our sinnes do prouoke against our selues euen the rigor of thy Iustice , and consequentlie both in the one and in the other dost shewe vs thy mercie & infinit goodnes , for all o Lord we yeeld thee infinit thanks knowing that thou dost it not , but for our great good : for he that had seen the maiesty of that Roman court , such and so great Cardinals & Bishops , such and so many Cannons , Protonotaries , Abbets , Deacons , & Archdeacons , so many Chamberleins , som ordinary , som extraordidary , so many Auditors , som of the chamber , & others of the Chauncerie , so manie Secretaries , so many Scribes , some of Bulles , some of Writtes , so manie Abreuiators , so many Aduotates , Doctors , and Proctors , and a thousand other kind of officers as were in that Court , and to haue seene them all come with that triumph and pompe to that Pallace , who would haue said wee should haue had such and so sudden a chaunge as this I haue now heard off . Now do I know that with the rigor of pain he doth recompence the delay of punishment .

Arch.

Seeing also that in truth the Cardinals were faine to dismisse their families because they had nothing left to buy bread for them to feede vppon .

Latt .

Yet one thing doth comfort mee that at least so long as they continue in this estate they shall the more liuelye represent those they should .

Arch.

Who is that ?

Latt .

Iesus Christ and his Apostles .

Arch.

You say truth , but in this case I had rather represent Pope Iulio with his triumphes , but tell mee I pray you how did the Emperour take these iniuries that in Rome his Armie had committed against the Church ?

Latt .

I will tell you : immediatly after the certaine newes came of the euils that happened at Rome , the Emperour shewing his compassion , caused the feasts that were made for the birth of his Sonne Don Philip to cease .

Arch.

And do you thinke that it greeued him .

Latt .

And what doe you thinke ?

Arch.

Now surely I cannot tell , for on the one side I see things that should displease him , and on the other things that should content him , and therefore doe I demaunde that question of you .

Latt .

And I will tell you , The Emperour is surely euen indeed a very good Christian , and dooth so hold all his actions and accidents recommended and committed to the hands of God , as he taketh all chaunces in the best part , and therefore it comes , that wee neuer see him either in prosperitie ouermuch to reioyce , or in aduersitie to bee agreeued , So that by his vtter apparance , it is not possible for anye man to Iudge , but surelye I thinke , that in this , as in all other thinges hee will not leaue for to conforme himselfe to that which shall please almightie GOD .

Arch.

But in good faith sir , what thinke you now , his Maiestie will doe in a matter of so great importance as this , now in truthe he had need of very good councell , for if at this time he doe reforme the Churche ( seeing now all men know what need there is besides the seruice which he should doe vnto God , he shall attaine euen in the worlde the greatest fame and glorye that euer Prince attained . And men will say euen to the ende of the world , that Iesus Christ framed the Church , and the Emperor Charles which restored it , and if he doe not this , albeit all fell out against his will , and that he had or haue the best meaning in the world , it will not be possible to excuse him , but that there will fall into mens mindes a very hard conceipt of him , neither doe I knowe what will be sayd of him after he is dead , nor what accoumpt he can giue vnto God , for hauing omitted and not knowne how to haue vsed so notable and great an opportunitie as now he hath to doe vnto God , so notable a seruice , and so incomparable a good vnto the Vniuersall commonweale of Christendome .

Latt .

The Emperour as I told and tell you , is indeed a very true Christian , and very prudent , and hath about him persons very wise in his Councell , I hope he will prouide for all to the glorye of God , and good of Christendome . But seeing you aske me this question , I will not forbeare to tell you my opinion , and that is as touching the first . The Emperor should .

Porter .

What nowe my masters , the Churche was made to praye in , and not to prate in . Yee may goe foorth and please you for I will shut the doore .

Latt .

Well Father we will away by and by .

Porter .

And you will not out I will lock you in .

Arch.

That were a gentill peece of curtesie , but I thinke that Saint Frauncis hath giuen you noe such commaundement .

Porter .

What care I for Saint Frauncis commanndements .

Latt .

I beleeue you well Father , let vs goe wee shall haue some other time to finish that is left .

Arch.

I would bee wounderfull glad to heare out that you began , but seeing it is thus , let vs goe a Gods name , vpon condition that we returne hether againe to morrow morning .

Latt .

Nay let vs rather meete at Saint Bennits , least this Friar turne vs out againe .

Arch.

You say well Sir , let it be euen so , but in the meane time , Reade I pray you this Prayer in manner of a new Pater noster , made by our Spaniards in couples that they soung euen vnder the window of our high Bishop .

Padre nuestro in quanto Papa , Soys Clemeynte sin que os quadre Mas Rennego yo deel padre , Que al bijo quita la Capa , &c FINIS .