A stronge battery against the idolatrous inuocation of the dead saintes, and against the hauyng or setting up of images in the house of prayer, or in any other place where there is any paril of idolatrye, made dialoguewise by Iohn Veron

A strong batterie against the ydolatrous Inuocation of the deade Sainctes , and agaynst the hauyng or settyng vp of Images , in the house of prayer , or in any other place , where there can be any peryll of idolatrie , made dialogue wise . By Iohn Veron .

The speakers . Albion , Eutrapelus , Philalethes . Dydimus .

ALBION .

I remembre wel , that after we had talked of the Prayers for the dead , this work was done in the hunting of purgatorie . in which talke , was most learnedly proued by you , that all the Prayers and good dedes taht the lyuing be able to make or doo for theim , that be ones departed out of this worlde , can profit theim nothyng at all : We wer fully determined to haue talked likewise and reasoned of the prayers that are commonly made vnto dead Sainctes . But beyng letted by other necessary & fruitful communication , the matter could not yet be discussed . this work was letted by the settyng forth of the doctrine of predestination , of free wil , and by the ouerthrowe of the iustification of works . Wherin , notwithstandyng , I se very many , shamfully to erre : & I my selfe am scarcely yet , persuaded in it , by reason of the manifold textes of the scriptures , & authorities of the ancient fathers , that my faithful guides of the clergie , dyd allege & bring in , for to proue , that we ought to pray vnto the dead Saintes that be already in glorie with their head our sauior Iesus Christ , & to take them for our mediatours , aduocates , & intercessors . Therfore , I shal most hertily desire you , brother Philalethes , that ye will declare vnto vs , your mynd , touchyng the matter , I meane whether we ought to call vpon any other , The summe of the hole doctrine entreated of in all this boke . than vpon the liuing God , in the time of our nede and trouble . And agayne , whether we ought to acknowledge any mediators , aduocates , & intercessors besides our sauior Iesus Christ , whom ye doo euery where affirme , to be our only mediator betwixt God & vs . I wold fain be fully resolued in this matter .

Philaleth .

As concerning the first , we do not rede in al the whole bodye of the scriptures that euer the true and faithful seruantes of god did in the time of their trouble , cal vpon any other , None of the faithefull seruantes of god didde euer call vppon any other in the time of theyr troubleth Turrian vppon the true liuing God than vpon the liuyng God , the father of oure sauiour Iesus Christe . Which ought to be vnto vs , a sufficient doctrin . For , it is to be thought , that if they had hadde any expresse word , in gods boke that shold haue commanded them otherwise , they wold haue ben obedient vnto it . But no suche expresse word shall ye fynd in all the scriptures , wherein not withstandyng all thynges , that do pertaine to the saluation of man , are most sufficiently sette forth vnto vs . Therfore it were a plain blasphemie in the tyme of our trouble , to cal vpon any other , than vpon the liuyng God onely , who by his prophete Dauid speketh these comfortable wordes vnto vs : Psal. 100. Call vpon me in the daye of thy trouble , so will I deliuer thee , & thou shalte glorifie me . Who , I praye you , hauyng this commandement of the euerlyuyng and eternall God , ioyned with so sweete a promise , We haue no promis in all the whole bodye of the scriptures , that the deade sayntes do heate vs . would seeke to any other ?

Eutrapelus .

I woulde holde hym woorse thanne madde , that would doo it , sithe that wee haue neyther expresse woorde , nor promysse , in all the whole body of the Scriptures , that the dead sainctes should heare vs , or succor vs in the tyme of our neede .

Philalethes .

What properties he oughte to haue that we muste pray vnto . Adde therto , that he whom we ought to pray vnto , muste haue all these properties .

1 Fyrst , he must be omnipotent or almightie , that is , able to do what soeuer he wyll , bothe in heauen and in earth . for onlesse he were able and of power to helpe vs out of all maner of troubles perils and dangers that we bee in , be they neuer so great , it were but labour lost to pray vnto him .

2 Secondly , he must be of an absolute and perfect wyse dome , that so he may perfectly know how to helpe them that call vpon hym , for helpe ayde and succour , and how to compasse and ouerthrow the craftie and subtill deuises of the enemies of his people . For many there be , that haue myght and power , but for wante of wisedome , they can bring nothing to passe , their might and power profiteth them nothyng .

3 Thirdely , he muste not onely be almightie , and of a perfect wisedom , but also willyng both to heare and to helpe vs . For what shoulde his great power and wysedome auayle or profite vs , except he were willyng to doo vs good ?

4 Fourthly he must be such one , as is able to here the prayers of al them that call vpon him , although in one instant , all the nations that be vpon the earth , shold make the●r praiers together vnto hym . Fo: els it shold come to passe that the suite and prayers of th one , shoulde be both hyndred and letted by the praiers of the other : or whyles he shoulde heare the praiers of the one , and delyuer them out of the present danger and perill : the other , theyr prayers beynge not heard , should perishe in the same .

5 Fiftely , this propretie also he must haue , that is , he muste be suche one , as dothe better know our necessities , and what is expedient for vs than we our selues bee able to declare . For , who wold commit himselfe into the handes of that phisition , that can know no more of the sycknesse than the pacient can tell himselfe . These .v. propreties are necessarily required in hym , whom we oughte in the tyme of our trouble to call vpon . Bryng one either in heuen or in earth that hath all these thynges , Rom 10. and then we mai be sure , that it is he , that ought to be praied vnto of all men . But who can be such , except he be almyghty , except he knoweth all thynges , or be of a perfect wisedom , except he be most bountuouse , and moste willyng to doo good vnto all them that by faithfull praiers doo fly vnto him , hearing all them that call vppon hym , and knwoyng better their necessities , than they their selues be able to declare ?

Didymus .

None , I trow , can be suche , but the true lyuing and eternal God onely . For none of all the angels nor of the children of Adam can haue these propreties , onelesse we wil grant them to be gods .

Philalethes .

It foloweth then by good consequence that none ought to be called vpon , God only oughte to bee called vppon . but the true lyuing God onely . For , he only is almightie , whose spirite is the spirite of counsaile , so that he knowethe howe to deliuer his out of temptation , being so mercyful and bounteous , that he dooth of his owne goodnes , call the afflicted vnto hymselfe , Psal. 50. and promiseth healpe vnto all them that calle vppon hym , sayeng ( as we alledged beefore ) Cal vpon me in the day of thy trouble , so shall I delyuer thee , and thou shalte glorifie me . Agayne , he dothe not onely beyng euery where present , here our woordes , but also the very desyres of our owne heartes , knowyng most perfectly the infirmitie and weakenesse of his worke , that he himselfe hath made . There can be no true inuoation withoute faithe . Obiection . 1 Moreouer , this is moste sure , that no inuocation or praier can be made withoute faythe .

Albion .

And doo not they , that praye vnto Sainctes , beleue that they shall be heard ? Without all doubt they bee fully persuaded , that theyr prayers shall bee hearde , and that they shall obteyne healpe and succour at the deade Sainctes handes . Therefore , it canne not bee sayde , that their inuocation or prayers be without faithe . Whence the faythe of the christians doo comme , and whervppon 〈◊〉 it gronded .

Philalethes .

But whence doothe the faithe of the christians proceede and comme , but of the preachyng of the gospell ? or whervpon is it grounded , but vpon the infallible word of Gud , which sendeth vs to none other , but to our heuenly Father , through his sonne Iesus Christe , our onely sauior , aduocate and mediatour . This doothe the Apostle write : Who soeuer shal cal vpon the name of the Lorde , Rom 10. shal be saued . But how shall they cal on him , in whom thei haue not beleued ? And how shall they beleue in hym , of whom they haue not hearde ? And howe shall they heare withoute a preacher ? And how shall they preache except they be sente ? as it is written : How beautifull are the feete of theim , whiche bryng glad tidynges of peace , and bryng glad tidynges of good thinges . But they haue not all obeyed the Gospell : Esai . ●● . Nauir . ● Esai ●● . Iohn . 12. for , Esaie saithe , Lorde , who beleueth our report ? Then faith commeth by hearyng , and hearyng by the worde of God . What could ( I beseche you ) be spoken more plainly of the true Inuocation and prayers of the Christians ? Who seeth not whence it dothe come ? How , sayth he , shall they call on hym , in whom they do not beleue ? The true inuocation thenne can not be without faithe . And that we might vnderstande of what saith he doth speake , he setteth foorth whence it cometh , that we maye know the qualitie & boldnesse of it . He sheweth that it cometh by the preching of the Gospell , whiche bryngeth vnto vs glad tidings of peace , and certifieth vs of good thyngs . But the true preachyng of the Gospell , dothe teache vs to beleue in God onely , and in his only begotten sonne oure Lorde .

Albion .

Now I perceaue well your meaning : He onely ought to be called vppon , He onely oughte to be called vpon , in whom we do beleue in whom we doo beleue : but the word of God dothe teache vs to beleue in God only : Therefore , he onely ought to bee called vpon .

Philalethes .

Ye vnderstand the matter a righte . And verily this is the principall marke , The mark that the hole scriptures doo-shoote at . that the hole scriptures doo shoote at , to make vs to put all our whole confidence and truste in God our heauenly father , and in al our afflictions and troubles whiche he sendeth vnto vs , for a fatherly chastisement and discipline , thereby to call vs vnto him agayn , boldly to call vpon his holy name , through his sonne Iesus Christ our Lorde and sauior .

EVTRAPE .

This , me thinke , oughte to suffise vs , that our sauior Iesus Christ , whom the heauenly Father hath appointed to be our onely teacher and scholemaister , in thynges that perteyne to the true religion , worshippyng and seruice of God dyd speake neuer a word of this Inuocation of the dead Saints , Christ hath spoken neuer a worde of the inuocation of saintes . which thing he woulde not haue done , if it had ben accordyng to the wyll of hym that had sent him . Therfore when he techeth his disciples to pray , he sayth these wordes vnto them : after this maner therfore praiye : Mathei 6 Our Father which arte in heauen , halowed be thy name . &c. As he dothe here sende vs to our heauenly Father , and byddeth vs to praye vnto hym , so can not this praier , without traiterous sacrilege bee sayed to any other . For vnto whome of the Sainctes can wee without great blasphemie saye : Oure father whiche arte in heauen ? or geue vs this day our dayely breade , and forgeue vs oure trespasses as we forgeue theym that trespace against vs ? Therfore I can not but meruell at the shamlesse blasphemies of those , that would sende the poore symple and ignorant , after they had had theym vnder theyr Benedicite , to this image or to the image and bydde them to saye there knelyng , so many Pater nosters and Aues .

PHILALE .

These maye be lykened vnto those false Prophetes that Hieremie dyd speake of ) whiche taught the people to say vnto a pece of woode , Thou art my father , & to a stone : Hiere . ● . Thou haste begotten me ▪ for what other thyng is it to mumble oute the Lordes prayer , before dombe blockes and stones , but to committe that shamefull ydolatrie , that the holye Prophete doothe so sore speake agaynst in that place .

Albion .

If the deade Sainctes ought not to be called vppon in oure necessities , Obie i. ii . troubles , afflictions , and aduersities , because that they can not healpe vs , but God onely , who therfore oughte alone to be prayed vnto : How doth it chance that many haue bene delyuered frome greuous sickenesses , and other greate perylles and daungers , by callyng vpon the Sainctes , & that with great & wonderous miracles . which thyng can bee proued by manyfeste tokens and signes , or rather remembrances , that hang yet at this daye in many of their chapelles ? Somme haue bene saued frome drounyng by the helpe of saint Nicholas . Some agayne , Sainct Nicolas . Saint Leonarde . haue ben delyuered frome bondes and yrons , by S. Leonard . Howe many , I pray you , beyng halt , blinde , dombe , and deafe , haue ben cured and healed by the helpe of the Saintes ? What shold I speake of them , that by their helpyng handes , haue ben deliuered from dangerous agues , pestilence and vncleane spirites ? Sith then that the deade Sainctes doo helpe them , that doo deuoutly pray vnto them , why shulde we not in the time of our trouble cal vpon them ?

PHILA .

Answer If the shewing of myracles were a sufficient argument for to proue , defend , and maintein the inuocation , and worshyppyng of the Saintes , The s●e wy●ge of mira●les is not a su●ficient argument to proue the inuocation of saintes by the same reason might the Idolatrie of the Gentiles or heathen be vpholden as good , sithe that many haue ben cured and deliuered emong them , by callyng vppon their false gods . Wherof it did come to passe , that the hethen dyd verily thinke that they were healed by their goddes , whom in their perils and dangers , thei called vpon , and whome , leauyng the true liuyng God , they moste vngodly honored and worshipped .

Didymus .

I remembre that the lorde doth in Esaie the Prophet speake these words : I am he , I am he , Esai . 43 and besides me there is no sauior . If there be no sauior besydes the true liuing God , by whose vertu think ye , were so many thousand of sick folkes restored to health again , before the ydols of the heathen ?

Philaleth .

Without al doubt , they were cured and healed by the power of the dyuell .

Didym .

But how can Sathan the dyuell , heale or delyuer any man from his sicknesse , sithe that he is no god .

Philale .

He can doo it , Who thei be ●● oug ●hom the li●el wor●eth myracles . if God doth permitte and suffer specially among them , whome he holdeth subiect to his tyrannie : whose eies he hath so betwitched , that they thynke themselues to be the true worshippers of the liuyng God , and to be helped by hym , for that wicked spirit is so abhorred , and hated , that beyng knowen , no man wold call vpon him . He doth therfore so blynde the heartes and myndes of the infidels , whome he beareth rule ouer , and whom he hath vnder his subiection , that they thinke nothyng lesse than to calle vpon Sathan the dyuell , or to be healed by hym . And that this crafty and moste subtill deceauer maye lurke or be vnknowen , he dothe by the diuine permission and sufferance , and by the rightuous iudgement of God , moste shamefullye begyle theim , that be geuen ouer into his power , doyng all that in hym lyeth , to withdraw the myndes of mortal men from the worshippyng of the true lyuyng God , that so he may haue them felowes with him of eternall punishementes in hell fier . And for this cause these vncleane spirites doo hyde theimselues within the images , Note this dilig ntly they inspire the hertes of their prophetes , they sett out oracles or prophecies , they gouerne the flyenges of byrdes , they trouble the lyfe , they disquiete the sleape , and creepyng in to the bodies , they doo fraye the mynde , they bryng the lymmes out of fashion , they hurte the healthe , and vere with diseases , that they may compel and constrayne the poore sely wretches to the worshippyng of theim , What sith till means the dyuell woorketh that he may seme to haue cured and he did the sick and when they haue released or leused that which they had bound , they may seme to haue healed ▪ for , this is theyr curyng or healyng when they ceasse to doo hurt . All these thinges are done , at the inuocation or calling vpon of the gods of the heathen Woulde therefore any man beyng in his right mynd , iudge this idolatrie to be tollerable or good , because of these miracles ?

Albion .

● . Obiection These thyngs haue been doone among the heathen , whose goddes were no gods but deuyls , and that by the permission and suffrance of God , because of their horrible idolatry that they dyd most shamefully wallow in . But it foloweth not that the lyke may be done among the people of God

Philalethes .

Answer . It is moste manyfeste and playne , that God doth permit and suffer Sathan to worke suche thynges among his people . For dothe not God geue vnto false Prophetes power to worke miracles , Deute. 19. that so he may try and proue his people whether their loue him or not ? And whether they will stedfastly cleaue vnto his lawes ? And least it shold be said , that this was don among the Iewes , but that it is otherwise in the churche of Christ , we haue an excellent prophecie of the holy apostle , wher he saith on this maner : 2. Thes. 2 Than shall the wycked man be reuealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirite of his mouth , and shal abolishe with the bryghtnesse of his comming : euen him , whose comming is by the woorkyng of Sathan , with all power and signes , and lying wonders . And in all deceauablenesse of vnrightuousnesse emong theim that perishe , because they receaued not the loue of the truthe , that they myght bee saued . And therfore god shal send them strong delusion , that they should beleue lyes , that all they might be damned , whiche beleued not the truth , but had pleasure in vnrightuousnesse . Do we not lerne by these words of th apostle , that in the later days there shall be wonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichriste ? And doubtlesse , There bee wonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichrist as they are by the rightous iudgement of God , ordeined for to deceiue them that haue a delight in vnrightuousnesse , so doo they also take away sicknesses , and diseases , that the vngodly contemners of the truth may the more be blynded and confirmed in their error . Are not also these Christes wordes ? Many shall say to me in that day : Lorde , haue we not by thy name prophecied ? he we not by thy name cast out deuils , and doone or wrought great miracles ? And then will I confesse to them I neuer knew you . Depart ye from me , ye workers of iniquitie . Mat. 24. And in an other place . There ( saith he ) shall arise false Christes , and false prophetes , and shal shewe great signes and wonders , so that if it were possible , they shoulde deceaue the very elect . It doeth sufficiently appeare , by this , that many times it cometh to passe , not onely among the heathen and Iewes , but also in the chirche of God , that by the inuocation of them , that are no Goddes , not a fewe haue ben , and are healed . Yet no man ought thervppon to conclude , that it is laufull in the time of trouble , to call vpon any other , than vppon the true lyuyng God , all creatures be they neuer so excellent , beyng layde asyde . Similitude Procreation of children doth not excuse whooredome , no more doth the working of miracles excuse the idolatrous inuocation of Saincts

Eutrepelus .

I am of this opinion , that miracles doo no more excuse the inuocation and worshippyng of Saintes , than the conception , gettyng or procreation of children , can excuse adulterie , & whoredome , although it be a miracle that the child is conceiued in the mothers wombe that there it is norished and fed , and at lengthe in his due tyme brought forth into the worlde , and suche a myracle as can onely be doone and wrought by the diuine vertue and power of God . Likewise he that stealeth bread or meat if he do eate it , he shal bothe take away his hunger , and also feede his bodye , though this vertue and power to feede the body doeth onely perteyne to God . Shall we therfore excuse whooredom , adulterie and theft ?

Didymus .

No man I trow , will be of that mynde .

Eutrapelus .

Howe can then , the inuocation of Sainces , which the whole scripture dooeth disauouche , be excused , by shewyng or workyng of myracles ? Therfore , when thei say , why should we not call vpon the Saintes , sithe that many ( as we se dayly by experience haue ben ) bothe healed and also deliuered , from the perills and dangers that they were in , by that meane ? It is euen , as if the horemonger shold say : Why shuld I not cleaue vnto a harlot , sith the I do aswell get children of her , as of a laufull wife ? or as if that these shuld likewise say : Why should I toyle or labor , sith that by stealyng , I can helpe my necessitie & nede ? As then , it is not laufull for any man to seke to haue children by adultery and whoredom , although men may haue issu that way , nor yet by pickyng & stealing to helpe the necessities of his body , althogh many do lyue by theft , but it is the part of an honest man to seke to haue issue by honest matrimonie & wedlock , & by due labor to get his liuing : so it is the dutie of a true christen man , The abolishing of the similitude . in what trouble , peril , or danger so euer he be , to seke for help & deliuerance , not by the vnlauful calling vpon the dead Saints ( althogh many haue receaued their helth by it ) but by the faithful inuocation only of the true lyuing & eternall god . And as an honest man had lieffer to bee withoute children than to get them in aduoutrie & whoredome : Similitude . and to byte his bread verye nere , rather than to lyue by thefte and other vnlaufull meanes : so he that feareth God vnfeignedly , hath lieffer , to suffer any kynde of affliction , than to seke for healpe and deliuerance , by the forbidden inuocation of dead creatures .

Albion .

Wel , I graunt , that the dead Sainctes , ought not to bee called vppon as gods , I meane that they ought not to be called vpon , as thoughe they their selues should help vs , A good Chift of the papistes . in our troubles and aduersities : but that wee ought to call vpon them , as beyng our mediators , aduocates , and intercessors which doo make intercession vnto God for vs .

Philalethes .

Where , I pray you brother Albion , haue ye learned this diuinitie ? So are we wont always to excuse the want or lacke of faith . Wh● doo we not rather praye vnto God out heauenly Father , sith that in so many places he wil haue vs so for to doo ?

Albion

Iohn . 9. Obie . 4. Because we are sinners . And ye know what the scripture saith : Peccatores non and●r Deus . God heareth not synners , but them , that are obedient to his will .

Philalethes .

That we are sinners , we haue that commune with al mortall men For , Answer . 8 King . ● 1 Iohn . 1. A difference bet●ixt sinners . there is no man that synneth not . And if we shold say , We haue no sin , we deceaue our selues , and the truthe is not in vs . But this difference , dothe the scriptures pu●fe betwixte synners , that some are always ready to ●●p●nt , whensoeuer they be , eyther by the outwarde preachyng of Gods word , or by the inwarde motion of the holy ghost , moued therto , and some agayne wyll neuer repent , but doo stubbrnely vnto the end abyde in theyr sinnes , makyng a mocke of the threatnynges of God , and of his iudgementes . If we be of the numbre of the true repentant synners , who dareth , contrarye to all the whole scriptures , affirm that God will not heare vs ? Math. 6. If synners may not bee heard , why dooeth our sauiour Iesus Christ teache vs to say : forgeue vs our trespasses , as we forgiue them that trespasse against vs ? Again , if God wil not heare repentant sinners , but the saints doo heare them , and haue pitie and compassion on them , then are the Sainctes mercyful , and God vnmerciful . Therfore the Scripture should haue comended and sett foorth the mercyfulnesse of the Saints , and not the mercy of God . All saincts that be in glory haue ben saued 〈…〉 the mercy of god . But let such blasphemie be farre from vs , that we shoulde take away mercye from God , and attribute it vnto sayntes , of whom not as much as one hath bene saued , but only through the grace and mercy of God . Nowe if we be vnrepentant synners , what meruaile is it , if we haue no boldnesse at all to call vpon God ? Ye know that they that are such , as they be voyde of a liuely faith in our sauior Iesus Christ , so are they most vnworthy that thei shuld be her●●

Eutrapelus .

Verily , it semeth vnto me , the greatest foly in the world , to thinke or imagine , that the Saintes are so far different or disagreyng from God , that whom he wil not heare because of their vnrepentant heartes , them they would not onely heare , but also make intercession vnto GOD for theym . The iniury that is don by the aduersaries both to god and to his sainctes . Who doth not se , that so doyng , we do great iniurie bothe to God and the Saintes . To the Saints , because that we iudge them to be such as will heare an vnrepentant sinner , when he calleth vppon them , & make intercession for him . And to God , The enemies harp stil vpon one string . because we shold imagin , that he will , contrary to his worde , admitte any intercessors for suche a sinner .

Albion .

Yet they will say still that this is the scripture : good heareth not synners . Here the holy ghoste maketh no suche distinction as ye make .

Philalethes .

I may answer you by the words of saint Augustine , August li. 2. contra episto lam parmeniani ca 9. who writeth after this maner : Hoc à Domino non est dictum , sed ●b illo , qui oculos corporis , iam quidem restitutos habebat , sed ei oculi cordis , nondum patebant , vnde ipsum Dominum adhuc prophetam putabat . Nam eum postea cognitum del filium adorauit . Ipse autem dominus , quum in vno templo orarent Pharisaeus & publicanus ▪ publicanum confitentem peccata sua magis iustificatum dicit , quam Phatisaeum ●actantem merita sua . Quanquam , enim iustificatus destiterit esse peccator , tamen vt iustificaretur peccator orabat , & peccator confitebatur , & exauditus iustificatus est , vt desinerer esse peccator . Non vtique desineret esse peccator , nisi prius exaudiretur peccator . That is to saye , This was not spoken of the Lord , but of him , which had alredy his bodily eies restored , Ioan. 9. but the eies of his heart were not yet open , and therefore he thought yet of the Lord , that he was but a prophete . For , afterwards , Luc , 18. knowyng that he was the sonne of God , he worshipped him . But the Lord hymselfe , when tow dyd praye together in one temple A Pharisei , and a Publican , dooth say , that the publican confessing his sinnes was more iustified , than the pharisey bostyng his merites . For although beyng iustified , he cessed to be a sinner : The example of the publicane yet whiles he was a sinner he dyd pray , & confesse his synnes , that he myghte be iustified and beyng heard he was iustified , that he myghte ceasse to bee a synner . And truely he should not ceasse to be a synner , onelesse he were hearde beyng yet a synner .

Eutrapelus .

As farre as wee can gather of the texte , that they dooe allege , we shall not greatly neede the helpe of this holy father : How the place aleageth out of the .9 . of Iohn ought to be vnderstanded . for , let vs only marke the circumstances of the place The phariseys dyd say of Christ , This man is not of god , for he kepeth not the Sabboth day . By which wordes , they went about to robbe Christ of the glorie of the miracle that he had wrought in making the blynde man to see , and to persuade the people that he was a moste abhominable synner , and a despiser of the Lordes holy lawes and ordinaunces . The poore sely blynd man , hauyng receued such a benefite at Christes handes , did all that in him dyd lye , to stoppe theyr blasphemous mouthes , saieng : We know that god heareth not synners , that is , suche synners , as ye wyll make hym . for it was not hearde , sence the worlde began , that any dydde open the eyes of a man that was borne blynde . Except this man were of god , he could haue done nothyng . It is easy now to vnderstand of what kynd of sinners the scripture speaketh there . For , if those wordes were spoken generally of all sortes of synners , what iniurye shold this be both to the worde of god , and also to his diuine grace ?

Didymus .

Obiection . If ye will geue me leaue , I will bring foorth an obiection , wherwith they do meruailously ( for it is sette out with a similitude , taken of the commune vse of men ) trouble the heades of the symple and ignorant people . ● Grounded vpon a similitude .

Albion .

We do all geue you good leaue .

Didymus ,

Who ( say our galant champions of the Popes clergie ) dare come to an earthly kyng or prince , hauyng any suite vnto hym without mediatours ? They that haue ought to doo with the prince , they wyl come vnto them , whom they know to be in most fauor with him , and them doo they make their mediatours , that they maye haue the better accesse vnto hym , and spede in theyr businesse . We haue the examples of the same in gods word . 1. King . 2 for was not Berseebah a mediatrix vnto her sonne Solomon for Adoniah ? Againe was not Absalon reconciled vnto his father Dauid , 2. Sa. 14. by the meanes of Ioab ? If we may not then come to worldly princes , but that we muste haue some , to be meanes for vs : howe dare we be so bolde , beyng synful creatures , to appeare before the maiestie of God without mediatours ? But who should be those mediators but the blessed virgin Mary , the holy apostles and martirs of our sauiour Iesus Christe ?

PHILA .

Answer . In deede with this similitude , they doo wonderfully dasylle the eies of the simple and vnlearned . But I trust that we shall soone ouerthrowe it , and so muche the rather because that it hath no fundation at all in gods boke . Fyrste and formoste , are not these the wordes of the Lorde : Esay . 55. Num vie meae sicut viae vestrae ? Are my waies lyke vnto your waies ? if the same causes coulde be founde in God , why we myght not come before his maiesty , without mediators that commonly be found in erthly kinges and princes , their similitude , should haue som appearance of a truth . But no such causes can we fynd in our heauenly father . First and foremost , yf a king be a louer of vertue , and an ernest maynteyner of iustice , as many wicked & vngodly persons , as he hathe within his dominions , so many deadly enemies hath he . And therefore it is not meete and conuenient , that euery manne that woulde , shoulde be suffered to come to suche a king . For , so he might be murthered vnder the color & pretence of suite , Titus linius 1 de ca. li 1. Psal ● . as we reade of Tarquinius Priscus . But there is no such peril in our heauenly kyng . For why ? he is in heauen , & hath all his enemies in derision , yea he shall speake vnto them in his wrath , and vexe them in his sore displeasure . Secondelye we see that at many times hapneth that worldly princes , do waxe so proude , and so high minded , that they disdain to speake with their gret lords , much lesse that thei wold suffer euery rascal , to come vnto them . But our eternal & euerlasting king doth call all men indifferently vnto him , saterig : Math. 11. Come vnto me al ye the labour , & are laden , & I wil refresh you . Thirdly , let vs graunt that the prynce , is neyther affrayde of treason , nor yet pufte vppe with suche pride , as we spake of , but is most ready to heare all mens suite : yet he can here but one mans suite at ones , so that yf all men shoulde be suffred to come in with their suite , he must nedes be ouercharged . But the liuyng god our heuenly father , is able to here at once al mens petitions , though all nations and peoples , that be vnder heauen , shoulde in one instant call vppon hym , and make their suite vnto hym . Ambro incōmē suis in , 1. caput ad Domanns , Vnto all these the sayeng of Ambrose may be added , where he sayth , Nam & ideo ad regem , per Tribunos & Comites itur , quia homo vtique est rex , & nescit quibus debeat Rempub. committere . Ad Deum autem , quem vtique ; nihil latet , omnium enim merita nouit , promerendum , suffragatore non est opus . sed mente deuota , That is to say : They doo therfore come vnto a kyng by his captaines , lordes , and wayting seruantes , because forsothe that the kynge is a manne , and knoweth not to whome he shoulde commit the commune wealthe . But to gette and obteyne the fauoure of GOD , from whome nothyng is hidden . for he knoweth al mens merites , we haue no neede of a Mediator , but of a deuoute mynd . Let your Pope catholikes rede the wordes that go before , in the same place of sainct Ambrose .

Albion .

But what say ye to those authorities of the scriptures , that our neighbour Didymus dyd aleadge ? 2 Sam 4 ●he histoly of Absaron .

PHILE .

I wyl first begynne with the historie of Absalon . Firste , it was not without a iust cause , that he dyd not by hymself sue to be reconciled with his father . It dyd well appeare afterwardes , that he bare no true hearte to the kyng his father , but was all drowned in ambition . Againe he knew right well , that his father loued Ammon moste entierly , and that therefore it coulde not be , but that he was sore offended , for the which cause , he durste not come in his syghte . And that Dauid woulde not see hym , that ought to be attributed to the great heauinesse and sorowe that he was in for the deathe of his sonne Ammon . But no such humain passions can be applied vnto God , onlesse we will condemne the scriptures of deceatfulnesse & leasyng . Agayne , that Dauid beeyng by the meanes of Ioab reconciled vnto his son , would not suffer him to come into his syght it was a token that he kepte yet som rancor and malice in his heart . But the reconciliacion , wherby the true repentant sinners , are reconsiled vnto god , is full and perfect ▪ for there can be nothing more acceptable vnto him , than the vnfeigned conuersion or turning again of his children . for , so doth he crye out by his prophete Esay : Let the wicked forsake his wayes , Esay 55. and the vnrighteous his owne imaginations , and returne vnto the Lorde , and he will haue mercy vpon him , and to our god , for , he is very redy to forgeue . for my thoughtes are not your thoughtes , neither are your wayes , my wayes , saieth the lord . When , thinke ye , woulde Dauid haue said : Lette Absalon forsake his wickednes , and returne vnto me being his fath●r , & I wil haue mercy vpon him . for I am very redy to forgeue . And as for adoniah , he had conceiued treason against his brother Salomon , whom he sought for to depose , that he might make hym self king , elles he mighte withoute any perill haue come to the king . 1 King . 2 The history of Adoniah . Howbeit the history doth declare , that the intercession , that Bersebah dydde make for hym vnto hir sonne Salomon , dydde coste hym hys lyfe .

EVTRAPE .

Vse that kynd of intercession that list , 2. Sa 19. me think it is naught for the necke .

Phila.

More ouer if such histories do please them so muche : why doo they not bryng forthe the historie of Semei , who although he had moste greuously offended Dauid , yet came by himself without any mediator vnto hym , and fallyng downe at his feete , desired hym of pardon ? why is the example of the prodigall son omitted and left of ?

Eutra .

Luc. 15. The similitude of the papistes ouerthrowen by an other similitude . As vnskilfull in diuinitie as I am , me thynke I coulde bryng a similitude or example , whiche must nedes be farre better that theirs . If any earthely kyng or prince should by act of parliment or by proclamation commaunde all his subiectes in theyr trouble to come boldely vnto hym , promysyng to heare theym , and to rydde theym out of theyr trouble , aduersitie , and affliction : What neede I praye you , shoulde these subiectes haue to seeke Mediatours , that by theym they might come to the kyng and haue their matter hearde ? euen so nowe , sythe that we haue so many proclamations , set out in that moste glorious councell or parlensent of the blessed Trinitie , wherby we are bydden to come with a stedfast confidence and trust before the mercy seate of our heauenly kyng and father , what shold mediators do ? First and formost , Psal. l. our heauenly Father setteth out this proclamation : Call vpon me in the daye of thy trouble , and so I will deliuer thee , and thou shalt heare me . Math , xi . The sonne setteth oute this , and dothe proclaime it hymselfe : Come vnto me all ye that labour , Ro. m 10 and are laden , and I will refreshe you . The holy gost dothe by the holy apostle crie out : Who soeuer shall call vpon the name of the Lorde shal be saued . Are not these sufficient proclamations to enbolden vs , in all our nedes troubles and aduersities to flye vnto our heauenly Father , for healpe , aide , and succour , withoute spendyng our labour in vayne , in seekyng mediators aduocates , and intercessors ? Chriso . de profectu euangelii . Tomo 6 . Non opus est ( saithe Chrysostome , multis patronis apud Deum , neque multo discursu vt blandiare aliis , sed licet solus sis patronoque careas , & per te ipsum Deum precetis , omnino tamen voti compos eris . Neque enim tam facile Deus annuit cum alii pro nobis orant , vt cum ipsimet oramus , otiam si plurimis plene simus malis , That is to say : we haue no neede of many aduocates before God , neyther of muche gaddyng about , for to flatter and speake fayre vnto other . For , althoughe thou be alone , and want an aduocate , and pray vnto God by thy selfe , thou shalt doutlesse obteyn thy request . For God doth not so easily heare vs when other doo pray for vs , as when we pray our selues althoughe we bee full of many sinnes . And again in the same Omelie : O woman , Math. 15. greate is thy faithe . Thou seest , saith he , how the woman that was vnworthie , was by hir importunate callyng made woorthie . Wilte thou also learne , that prayeng by our selues we obteyne more at goddes handes , then when other do praye for vs ? She cryed after Christ , and the disciples came vnto hym , saying : Sende her away , for she crieth after vs . And vnto theym he sayd : I am not sente but vnto the loste shepe of the house of Israel . But whan she came her selfe , & perseuered crying out , and saying : Lord , doo not the lyttle whelpes fede of the crummes that fall from their masters boord ? he granted vnto her the benefit , that she wold haue , and saide : Let it be doone vnto thee , as thou wilt . Thou seest how she had the repulse , whan other praied , but when she came her self praying for the gyft : he dyd graunt it . Vnto theim he dyd say : I am not sent but vnto the lost shepe of the house of Israell . But vnto her : Greate is thy faithe , saith he , let it be doone vnto thee , as thou wilt . These are Chrysostomes wordes , neither can the ennemies answere ought to these playn textes .

Albion .

Obiect 5 Heb. 12. And shall we haue no mediators , aduocates or intercessors at all ? Doth not saint Paul write thus : Euen our God is a consumyng fyre , and dwelleth in the lyghte that none can attayne vnto ? Who dareth then , knowyng hymselfe to bee a synnefull creature , approche or come nere vnto hym ? Shall not he , that presumeth to do so , be consumed to nought ?

Philalethes .

In deede , brother Albion , forasmuch as God is a consumyng fire Answer . and dwelleth in the lyght that no man can attayne vnto , Why the son of god did take vpon him our fraile nature . wee haue nede of a mediator , but not of mediators . And the same mediator is the onely begotten sonne of GOD , oure sauiour Iesus Christ , who that he myght be our only and omnisufficient Sauior , and also the onely mediator betwixte GOD and vs , dyd vouchesafe to take vppon hym our fraile nature . Without hym can we haue no accesse vnto that burnyng and consumyng fyre , 1 Timo 2. nor haue any felowshyp with God . And of this omnisufficient and only mediator , the holy Apostle writeth on this maner : There is one God , and one mediator betwixte GOD and manne , whiche is that manne Christe Iesus , who gaue hymselfe a raunsome for all men

Albion .

They confesse , The cauill of the papistes . that Christe is the onelye mediatour betwixt God and manne . But howe ought this to be vnderstanded ? Christe , saye they , is the onelye Mediator of redemption , but not of intercession . For as he onely hathe redeemed vs , and by his deathe and bloodde sheaddynge , he hathe made attonemente betwyxte god and vs : Answer to the cauill . so the blessed virgin Mary and other holy Saintes in heauen , are mediators of intercession , prayeng for vs vnto God the father , and to his son Iesus Christe our Lorde and Sauior .

Phil●lethes .

I wold fayne know where they learne this in the scriptures and word of God . Fyrst , Paul in the place that we alleadged last , doothe plainely shew that there can be no mediator , None can be our mediatour except he be also out redemer . except he bee a redeemer also . But they graunt , that Christ only hath redemed vs . Whereby it foloweth that Christe only is a mediator . And so the scriptures appoynt hym , I meane , to be oure mediator , aduocate , & intercessor , euen after his glorious resurrection & ascencion , when he had alredy by his death & bloodshedyng fully reconciled God vnto vs : Roma. 8. For thus doothe saincte Paule write : It is Christe which is dead , yea rather , which is risen agayne , whiche is also on the right hande of God , and maketh intercession for vs . Heb. 7. And in an other place : Emong them ( sayth he ) many were made priests , because they were not suffered to endure , by the reson of death . But this man , because he endureth for euer , hath an euerlasting priesthode . Wherefore he is able also perfectly to saue them , that come vnto God by hym , seeyng he euer lyueth to make intercession for vs . In this texte haue we many goodly lessons set forth vnto vs : for sith he hath an euerlasting priesthoode they muste needes confesse that they bee all moste shamefull blasphemors , that either make themselues his successors , or pretend any other sacrifice , than he hymselfe offered ones foreuer vppon the aultar of the crosse . And shewyng the fruites of this euerlastyng priesthode , he saithe , that he is able by reason of it to saue fully and to the vttermost , all those that come vnto god by him ▪ where we lerne who they he , V●hom our sauiour Iesus Christe wil saue . Iohn . 14. whom our sauior Iesus Christ wil saue , euen those the seke to com vnto god by him . Whiche agreeth well with that which he sayth him selfe in Iohn , where he speaketh those wordes : I am the waye , the truthe , and the life . No man commeth vnto the father but by me . They than that seke to come vnto God by any other meane or waye than by our sauior Iesus Christe , can looke for no saluation at his hands . In what case then , are al those that by the dead saintes do seke to come to God ? But this ought to be most confortable of al , wher he saith , Hebr , 9. that Christ lyueth for euer , to make intercession for vs . Wherevnto may be added , 1 Iohn 2. that Christ is entred into heauen for to appeare in the sight of God for vs . Again , saith the holy euangelist sainte Iohn : If any man synne , wee haue an aduocate with the father , Iesus Christ the rightuous , and he is the satisfaction for our sinnes . Where besides al other doctrines , we do lerne that Christ is our onely aduocate and attonement maker . For the office of intercession , and redemption , ar so iointly ioigned together , out of this present life , the mediation or intercession can be ascribed vnto none , but the redemption must be attributed vnto them also . For why is our sauior Iesus Christ our aduocate with the father , but bicause that he is both rightuous , August 1 Iohn . 2. & also the full satisfaction for our sinnes ? S. Augustin writing vpon this text of Iohn saith these words : Videre ipsum Ioannem seruantem humilitatem . Certe vir iustus erat & magnus qui do pectore domini mysteriorum secret● bibebat . Ille , ille qui bibendo de pectore domini diuinitatem eructauit : In principio erat verbum , & verbum erat apud Deum . Ille talis vir non dixit : Aduocatum habetis apud patrem , sed si quis peccauerit inquit , aduocatum habemus apud partem : non dixit habetis : nec me habetis , dixit , nec ipsum Christum habetis , dixit . Sed Christum posuit non se , & habemus , dixit , non habetis . Maluit se ponete in numero peccatorum , vt Christum haberet aduoucatū : quam ponere se pro Christo aduocatum , & inueniti inter damn●ndos superbos . Whiche maye be englished thus : Ste Iohn himselfe kepyng his humilitie and lowlynesse . Truely he was a righteous and a great man , ●om . 1. which dranke out of the Lordes breast the secretes of heauenly misteries . He he , who drynkyng oute of the Lordes breaste , vttered foorthe the diuinitie , sayeng : In the begynnynge was the woorde , and the woorde was with GOD . He beyng suche a man dydde not saye : Ye haue an aduocate with the Father , but if any man doth syn , we haue an aduocate with the father , He said not : ye haue neither did he say : ye haue me , ●ike this ●l . neither did he say : ye haue Christ . But he did put Christ & not him self : again , he did say , we haue and not ye haue ▪ he had lieuer to put him self in the number of sinners , that he myghte haue Christ , to his aduocat , than to put him selfe an aduocate or intercessor for Christe , and to bee founde amonge the proude damned . Brethern , we haue an aduocate with the Father , euen Iesus Christe hym selfe . And he is the propitiation or satisfaction for oure synnes . He that hath holden this faythe , hathe done no heresy , he that hath holden this opinion , hath caused no schisme or diuision . For , whence doo breede schismes and deuisions ? When men do say , we are iuste , when menne dooe saye , we doo sanctifye the vnclene , we doo iustifye the vngodlye , we aske , we obteine . But what sayeth Iohn ? Si quis peccauerit aduocatum habemus apud patrem Iesum Christum iustum Yf any manne doth synne , we haue an aduocate wyth the father Iesus Christe the righteous .

Didymus .

But nowe a days amonge a great many , and specially where Papistry doth reigne , Heresy and schisme is laid vnto them that ●eache the ●rue inuocat●on of god and the ●nly mediation of his son Iesus Christ who soeuer dareth affirm the Christ is our only aduocate , mediatour , and intercessour , he shal be taken both for an heretike and for a schismatike . Why do they not then lay both heresy , and schisme to Sainct Augustines charge ?

Eutrapelus .

But that they do feare the people , whiche beginneth now to see without their rustye spectacles , withoute all peraduenture they would do it .

PHIL.

This holy father dothe in an other place , write in a maner the lyke of the blessed Apostel . Augu●t li. 2. contra epistolam parmenia ni ca 8. S. Paule : Christen men ( saith he ) do praye one for an other in their prayers . But he for whome no man doth pray , but he for all men , is the onely and true mediatour . Paule the Apostell although he was a chiefe member vnder the heade , yet because that he was a member of the body of Christe , and did know that the high and true prieste of the church , was entred not into the holy places that are made with hands but into the very heauen , he doth also commend him self vnto the praiers of the faithfull . Neyther doth he make him selfe mediatour beetwixt god and the people , but desireth that all the membres of the body of Christ doo pray one for an other : sith that the membres are careful one for an other : and if one suffereth , they doo all suffer with it : So then lette the mutual praiers of al the membres , that be yet here laboring vpon the earth , ascend vp vnto the head , whiche is gone before into heauen , in whom is the satisfaction for our sinnes . Nam si esset mediator Paulus : essent vtique & reliqui Apostoli , & sic multi mediatores essent , nec constaret ipsius Pauli ratio qua dixerat : Vnus enim deus , 1. Tim. 2 vnus mediator dei & hominum , homo Christus , in quo & nos vnum sumus , si seruamus vnitatem fidei , in vinculo pacis , That is , for if Paule were a mediator , truely the other Apostles should be mediators also , and so there should bee many mediators . Neyther should Paules reason stand , where he sayth : for there is one God , one mediator of GOD and men , that manne Christ in whom we also are one , if we kepe the vnitie of faithe in the bond of peace . But what neede we so many words ? When Paule did speake these words : There is one God , one mediator of God and men , that man Iesus Christ hadde he not a respect vnto the prayers that he spake of before ? For after that he had bidden the faithfull congregation to make prayers and intercessions , for all estates and degrees of men , for a confirmation of his saying , he dyd adde by and by : for , Ob●ect 7 there is one God , and one mediator betwixte God and men .

Albion

Sithe that Christ is apointed of the Father to be our iudge how can he be our mediator ? For these two can not stande together , Answer . to bee bothe iudge and mediator .

Philalethes .

They that haue putte this into youre heade , canne not tell what they saye . The tyme of grace and the tyme of iudgement . For we muste make a distinction betwixt the tyme of grace , and the time of iudgement . In the tyme of grace , Christe is bothe our soueraigne prieste and also our onely mediator betwene GOD and vs , At the day of iudgement all mediation and intercession making shall cease . as it is sufficientely declared in the Epistle to the Hebrewes . But in the day of iudgement , be shall come to be iudge of the quick & of the dead . At that tyme , mediation & intercession makyng shall ceasse . Again , we must make a distinction betwixt the elect and the reprobate . for , he is the sauiour and mediatour of the electe and chosen , and the iudge of the reprobate . For , none shal come into iudgement , for to receiue condemnation but the reprobate only , for as much as none shal be condemned but the wicke and such as will not beleue in the sonne of god . These are the words of our sauior Iesus Christ . Iohn 5. Verely verely , I saye vnto you , He that heareth my word , and beleueth on hym , that hath sent me , hath lyfe euerlasting , he shall not come into iudgement or into condemnation , but is past from death to lyfe . And in an other place : god saith he , sent not his son into the worlde , that he should condemne the world , Iohn . 3. but that the worlde through him might be saued : he that beleueth in him shal not be condemned , but he that beleueth not , Iohn . 12 is alredy condemned , because he beleueth not in the name of the onely begotten sonne of god . Again : yf any man heare my wordes and beleue not , I iudge him not . for , I came not to iudge the world , but to saue the world . He that refuseth me and receaued not my wordes , hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him in the last day . By these wordes of Christ it doth plainely appeare , fyrste that as long as Christ , is in his priesthode , and sitteth in the throne of grace he doth not execute the office of a iudge , but the office of a priest and mediator , and secondly that the faythful beleuers are deliuered from the streightnes , rigour , and seuerity of the iudgement , wherby Christ shall iudge the world in the last day . Therfore those scriptures , that do set forthe vnto vs Christes priesthoode and the fruites therof , ought most diligently to be considered , borne in mynd and remembred . Them shal ye haue as it hath bene already declared before in the 7. and 9. chapter of the epistle to the Hebrues , in which epistle , Hebr , 5. What ought be our shoote anker . the Apostell doth ernestly exhorte vs , to come vnto the throne of mercye , and grace . Thys then ought to be our shoote ankre , that our sauiour Iesus Christ , is not onely appointed of the father , to be our iudge but also to be our mediatour , aduocate and intercessour , and that therfore we must endeuour our selues to bee of the numbre of the faithfull beleuers , vnto whom by the blood of our sauior Iesu Christ , Math. 11 the waye is open into the holy place , and vnto the seate of grace , which is sett foorth of God , for all them that are laden , and doo labor in this peynfull way of synne , wretchednesse , and miserie , so that they will take hold vppon the promises of God , sealed vp vnto vs by the blood of his onely begotten sonne our sauior Iesus Christe .

Didy .

Question We reade and heare that our sauiour Iesus Christe maketh intercession for vs : how I beseche you , ought this to be vnderstanded ? Is it to be thought that he is kneling before the maiestie of god his father , and that holdyng vp his handes , and shewyng his woundes vnto hym , he dothe pray for vs ? for such doctrine haue we ben taught heretofore .

Philalethes .

Answer to the question . We muste haue no suche grosse imagination of the intercession of the sonne of God . But with the apostle we oughte to vnderstande that Christe doothe so stande or appeare before the face or in the syght of GOD , that the vertue of his deathe shal stand and bee vnto vs for a perpetuall and euerlastyng intercession . Heb. 12. And for this cause , it is sayd , that his bloode speaketh better thynges , The blood of Abel crieth for vengeaunce . Gene. 4. than the bloode of Abell . for the bloode of Abell , beynge shedde with the handes of his cruelle brother Cayne dydde from the earth crye vnto the. LORDE for vengeance : but the bloude of our sauiour Iesus Christe , beyng ones shedde for vs vppon the aultare of the crosse , and where thorough an euerlastynge Testament and priesthoode is confyrmed , and sealed vp vnto vs , is in perpetuall remembrance before GOD , and dothe of him obtaine continually , mercy vnto vs .

Albion .

Obiect 8 Yf we oughte not to pray vnto dead Saintes , eyther because that we haue no nede of intercessours to godwarde , or elles because that Christe is oure onely mediatoure betwixt his heauenly Father and vs : why then , it shall not be lauful that we praye one for an other , Iames. 5. as Iames doth bidde vs , saying , Praye one for an other , that ye may be saued . Now if according to Iames saying , we may godly praye one for an other , who shall let , Answer . but that the Saints in heauen should pray and make intercession for vs ?

Philalethes .

All that hath ben sayd hetherto , dothe onely tende to this , that we maye vnderstande that in the tyme of our trouble , we haue accesse vnto the father , through oure onely mediator , Iesu Christ . Now , the praiers that we do here in this life , of a brotherly charitie & loue make one for another , be not repugnant vnto that , but the doctrine of the inuocation of dead Sainctes is all together repugnant . And as for the place , How the pla●e of Iames is to bee vnderstaded that ye haue aleaged out of Iames , be sayth not there : Let som pray for the other , but , praye one for an other , that ye may be saued . wherby he requyreth of vs , an assured affiance , truste , and confidence in our heauenly father through his sonne Iesu Christ , and suche an earneste loue towardes our neighbor , that wee countyng his miseries troubles and aduersities our owne , we should at all tymes , with a good confidence commende his saluation vnto God oure heauenlye father . The which thyng , that form or maner of prayeng , whiche the eternall wisedome of the Father hath prescribed vnto vs , dothe most chiefly req●●● of all his faithfull congregation , biddyng vs to pray after this sorte : Oure father which art in heauen . &c. Who can say this prayer , but that he must praye for all the membres of the same body , that he is of ? Againe , doo not the other like wise in this prayer , commende his saluation vnto God ? Moreouer , the wordes of Iames be so , that by theim wee are bounde to pray for those that praye for vs . If the dea Saintes than doo make intercession for vs , we are bound also to praye or make intercession for them . But that were to do the sainctes great iniurie and wrong . For thus it is written in their owne canons , The canons do playnly affirm that to pray for the saincte which bee in heauen it is to doo them iniury . Iniutiam f●●it martyri , qui orat promartyre . He do●he wrong vnto a martyr , that prayeth for a martyr . Secondely , we are commaunded to pray one for an other , that we may be saued . Whereby it dooth appere , that we ought to pray one for an other , whiles we are yet in the way of saluation , that we may spedily o●●ne to our ways ende . But the dead Saints ar alredy at their iorneys end . The praiers that we make one for an other while we lyue what they do require and what they wor● In fine , this prayer that we make one for an other , whiles we are yet a lyue , fyrste it requireth a confidence or boldnes to praye vnto god the father , and it is so farre of that is should stoppe that accesse or waye that by the bloude of his sonne Iesu Christe , is opened for vs vnto him , that rather it maketh it the easier . Secondlye it doth kin●ell , nouryshe , and encrease in vs a brotherlye loue . But the inuocation of dead saintes , doth quenche them both .

Albion

Obie . 9 I thynke , that the Saincts , that be alreadye in heauen , doo of a brotherlye loue praye for vs . For , they are members of the same bodye , that we bee of , and loue vs , and therfore , withoute all doubte , they doo praye for vs . Are not , Hierony . contra v●gilātium . I pray you , these Hieromes wordes against Vigilantius : Dicis in libello tuo , quod dum viuimus , 〈◊〉 pro nobis orato possimus , post quam autem mortui fuerimus , nullius sit pro ●ocxaudienda oratio , praesertim cum martyres , sui sanguinis ●tionem obsecrantes , impetrate non quluerunt . That is : Thou sayest in thy booke , that whyles we lyue , we may pray one for an other but after we be dead , Reue. 6. no prayer that is made for an other , shal be hearde , speciallye sith that the martyrs praiyng for the vengeaunce of their bloud , coulde not obtaine their petition . Yf the Apostelle● and martyrs , canne pray for other , when they ought yet to bee carefull for theim selues , howe much more doo they praye after theyr crounes , Exod. 3● . Act. 7. victories and triumphe● ? Moyses beyng one man dothe obteyne pardon for .vi. hundred thousand harnessed men : And Stephen beyng folower of his maister and the first martyr in Christ doth pray for his persecutors , Act 27. and after that they begynne to be wyth Christe , shall they be of lesse ablenesse ? Paule the Apostell saithe the lxxvi . soules were geuen him in the shyppe . And shall he nowe beyng after his resolucion wyth Christe holde his peace . and not bee able to open his mouth for theym that in all the whole world , did through his preachyng beleue to gospell ? By these wordes of Hierome we do learne , that yf the dead Sainctes whyles they were yet in the earth , dydde of a compassion and loue , pray for their poore bretherne whome they sawe to be in misery , Answer . much more they will doo the same beeyng now in perfection , and in glorie with they ; head .

Phialethes .

It is easy to say , that the dead Saints do of a loue that they beare vnto vs , beyng yet in the combate make intercession for vs : but how can that bee proued by the scriptures and worde of God , without the whiche no maner of doctrine , ought to be receaued of the faithefull congregation of God ? If ye argue or reason after this sorte : The dead Saintes doo loue vs , and therfore they pray for vs : for , when they were yet in this life , they prayed diligently for their bretherne , The argument of the p●p●sts beaten vpon then own heades . whome they loued , by and by it may be answered , that they also did wepe with them that dyd wepe , shall we say , that they do nowe the same in heauen ? for christen and brotherly loue dothe not onely pray for the afflicted , but it doth also weepe with theim that doo weepe .

Didymus .

I am afrayed brother Albion , that ye shall be faine to seeke an other argumente , for to proue that the dead Saintes doo pray for vs ?

PHIL.

Again , if they pray how doo they pray I beseche you ? whether doo they particularly praye & make intercession for them , of whom they be called vpon , A●gu li. de cu●a pro mor his agenda . & prayed to , or do they generally praye & make intercession for al vs ? Saint Augustine dothe plainely affirme that the soules of the saintes that be in heauen do not know what the lyuing doo here in earth . His wordes are these : If the soules of the dead were present in the matters or businesses of the liuing , or shuld talke with vs , when we se them in our slepe ( that if I should holde my peace of the other ) my godly mother wold neuer a night forsake me , which folowed me both by sen & by land , that she myght lyue in my companie . For , God forfend , that she should in the blessedfull lyfe be made more cruell : in so muche that when any thyng troubleth my heart , she wold comfort me hir son beyng in heauinesse , whome she loued entierly , whom she would neuer see to be striken in sadnesse . But verily the same , which the sacred psalme doothe sound or set out , is true . Psal. ● My father and my mother haue forsaken me , but the Lorde hath taken me vp . If then oure parentes haue forsaken vs : howe hee they present in our affaires , and carefulnesse , or in our eares ? Nowe , if our parentes be not present , who of the other dead , doo knowe what we doo , or what we suffer ? Osaie the Prophete saieth : Esa. 63. Thou arte our father . Abraham was ignorant of vs , and Israell knew vs not . If these greate Patriarches were ignorant what was doone vnto the people , that descended of them , vnto whom beleuyng in God , promyse was made , that the same people should come of their stocke , how are the dead present for to know and helpe the affaires and doinges of the liuyng ? Howe shall we say that they haue a good turn or are wel prouided for , which dyed afore the calamities did come , Note . which ensued and folowed after their death , yf after theyr decesse they haue also a feelynge of those thyngs that doo chance in the calamitie of mans lyfe : Or doo we peraduenture through error speake these thyngs , & iudge them to be quiete whom the troublesom life of the liuing do vnquiete ? What is it then , that god doth for a great benefite promise vnto that godly kyng Iosias , that he should die afore , lest he shoulde see those calamities , plages , and miseries whiche be threatned , shold come vpon the place & vpon the people . These are gods wordes : Thus saith the Lord god of Israel . 2. Kin. 22. 2 Chr 34. The wordes that thou hast heard shall come to passe . But because thine heart did melt & thou didst humble thy self before god , whan thou heardest his wordes against this place , & against the inhabitantes therof , & humblest thy selfe before me , & tarest thy clothes , and didst wepe before me , I haue also heard it , saith the Lord . Beholde I wil gather thee to thy fathers , and thou shalte be put in thy graue in peace , and thyne eyes shall not se al the euil , which I wil bring vpon this place , & vpon the inhabitants of the same . He beyng frayed with the threatnynges of God had wepte , and torne his clothes , and therfore , he was certifyed that he shoulde be taken awaye by deathe , and so reste in peace , that he shoulde not see all those euylles . Ibi ergo sunt spiritus Defunctorum , vbi non vident quaecunque aguntur aut eueniunt in ista vita hominum , Wher the spirites of the godly be . There , therfore are the soules of theim that be departed , where they doo not see all those thynges that are done , or doo chaunce in the lyfe of men . These are saint Augustines wordes , who doth plainly denie , that the blessed soules of the dead , doo entermedle them selues to knowe and healpe the affaires of the liuyng , yea he dothe playnly affirme , Sith that the dead sainctes knowe nothing of al that is done here it is in vain to pray vnto them Question that they be vtterly ignorant what is don in the lyfe of men . If this bee true ( as that can not be false which is proued by the holy scriptures ) truely the saluation & necessitie either of the dead or of the liuyng is in vaine committed to the intercession of theim that know nothing therof . We doo beleue in vayne , that they doo pray vnto the Lorde for oure present necessite , which know not that we are in any perill or daunger .

Didy .

And may not they haue intelligence & vnderstandyng of our affaires , eyther by the angels , or by them that go away hence from vs , or els by god himselfe ?

Philalethes .

Answer . Sithe that these wayes of reuelation are no where in the scriptures sett foorth vnto vs , and therfore be most vncertaine : Why should we , It is folishnes to fly from that which is certaine to ●hat which is vncer●a●e . I pray you , flie from those thynges that are most sure , most certaine , and infallible , vnto that which is doubtfull , and not ones mencioned of in all the whole body of the scriptures . Ye haue hearde how that this moste holy father sainct Augustine doth plainely confesse , that the dead saintes doo not knowe our estate , or the case that we bee in , nor yet be careful ouer vs . Leauing then , that whiche is without any grounde of the scriptures , let vs stedfastly cleaue vnto that which is most surely grounded in gods boke , wherin we are taught , that the blessed soules of the elect and chosen of God , do rest in peace , beyng in glorie with their heade our sauiour Iesu Christ , who alone is appoynted of god to be oure mediator , aduocate , and intercessor .

Albion .

But what will ye say to Hieromes clerkly sayenges ? ye see that he dothe plainly hold opinion , that the dead saintes doo praye for vs .

Philalethes .

As for Hierome , How Hierome dyd ouershote himself in this mater . I doo with all due reuerento : acknowledge him to do a most worthy instrument of God , howbeit in this master he hathe declared him selfe , that he was a man . And verelye I doo meruayle that beeing so great a cleark as he was , would buyld the doctrine of the praisyng of the deade saintes for vs , vpon such weake argumentes : For , who wil say that the Saintes do nowe the same in heauen , that they did in the erth ? But Hierome sayeth none other thing , neither dothe he with any other arguments , proue that the saints do pray for vs in heauen . Hieromes weake arguments . Yf ( saieth he ) they did pray for vs in the earth , how much more shall they do it now after their crounes , Act. 27. victories and triumphes ? Yf two hundred . lxxvi . soules were geuen vnto Paule praiyng : here in the earth , how many mo shall be geuen vnto him praying now in heauen ? I graunte that god hath done good vnto men here in the earth through the ministery and praiers of his seruants , Why god did good vnto men here in the earth by the ministerye and praiers of his seruauntes . but to what ende , I praye you ? euen to this ende that they should beleue the worde of god set foorth by his true ministers ? But the ministers dyd all with one doctrine teach vs to cal vpon god only in al ●●re necessities . Nowe the doctrine of the praiers of the saints , and of their intercession for vs in heauen doth pull vs away from god , Hiero in L●c , 14. and causeth vs to put some truste , hope and confidence in the creatures . Which Hierome hym selfe doth stronglye impugne , saiyng : The righteousnes of the righteous shal bee vpon him , and the wickednesse of the wicked shall remayne vpon him . Euerye manne shall dye through his owne syn , and euerye man shall liue through his owne righteousnesse . Iohn . 8. The Iewes do say in vayne ▪ Abraham is our father syth that they haue not the workes of Abraham . Yf we should put our truste in any , let vs put our trust in god . liere 17. Psal 146. Cursed be euery man , that putteth his trust in menne , although they be saintes , although they be prophetes . We reade , Put not your trust in men . Again : better it is to trust in god , than in princes . Not onely in the princes of the world , but in the princes of the church , whiche yf they be righteous , they shall deliuer their owne soules onelye . These are Hieromes woordes . Let vs , therfore , hope , in the lorde oure GOD , and sith that we haue not one iote in the Canonicall Scriptures of the intercession of the Sainctes for vs in heauen , nor any example , that they do pray vnto the father for vs , let vs boldely reiecting this idolatrous inuocation of the dead sainctes , and the vaine and fonde doctrine of their intercession for vs vnto God , cal vpon our heauenly father , through his sonne Iesu Christ , though an angell from heauen shoulde teache the contrarie . I doo here let passe that in the boke , which this holy father did write agaynste Vigilantius , there is more furious bitternesse to bee founde than either modestie or learning , whiche maye bee proued by the censure of Erasmus , The censure of Erasmus vpon Hieromes booke against vigilantius . whiche is this : lo vigilantium ita conuitiis debacehator Hieronymus , vt plusculum in eo modestiae eogar desyderare : Vtinam argumentis dunta●at egisset , & à conuitiis temperasser . That is , Hierome doothe 〈◊〉 with reuilyng woordes raile against Vigilantius , that I am fayne to fynde a larke of modestie in him , would god he had onely soughten with argumentes , and had refrained from reuilynge and opprobrious wordes . For , take away these railyng woordes : Caupo Calagutitanus , Dormitantius , Herculis monstra , Louiathan , & Behemoth , The taunces of Hierom against vigilantius . take away his chi●yng , brawling , and scoldyng , take awaye his subtill conue●ance in the torrke . Take awaye his exclamations , translations , tragicall amplifications , his swellyng and braggyng wordes , and nothing almost shal be left vnto the reader , that hath anye sauor of the propheticall and apostolicall simplicitie .

Albion .

Obie . 10 Yet this holy father dothe plainely affirme , that the deuils dyd roare out , at the relykes of Saint Andrew , and that great myracles and wonders at the dust and ashes of the martyrs , haue been wrought , and the vnclean spirites tormented . Whiche thyng he dothe proue by the example of certaine emperors , kynges , and byshops , saying : If it be not laufull to shrine vp , and to translate the relikes of the saintes , then was Archadius with Constantine a sacriledge , all the byshops were not only sacrileges , but to be also compted verye beastes & foles , which did cary so vile a thing , and ashes in silke and in a golden vessell .

Philalethes .

As touchyng the firste , Answer . I answere that the diuels dyd not roare out because of saincte Andrewes drye bones , Whythe diuel did roa● ou●e at sainct An drewes reli●es . but because of Christe , whome the holy Apostle Saint Andrew hadde preached . And as touching the miracles , & wonders , that he doth speake of , who doth not see , that thin good man hauyng forgotten hym selfe , dyd attribute the same vnto the dead bones of the Saints , which the true seruantes of god , being aliue wold neuer haue suffred to be attributed vnto them ? Neither ought his examples to in due vs any thing For in receiuing or settyng out religion , The facte of a priuate man in maters of religion proueth nothing . the priuate facte or deede of men , proueth nothyng , unlesse it be manifest , that it is wel done . But that only is wel done which is boone by the auctoritie of the scriptures , and not against the law of God . Now if we shold reade the whole Bible ouer , and call to remembraunce all the examples of the true and faithfull seruauntes of God , mentioned of in the scriptures , A poore helpe in tyme is muche waith . we shall not fynde there one onely iote or syllable of the gatheryng translatyng , or honoring of the relikes of the Sainctes .

DIDYMVS .

It semeth , that ye do now condemne Constantine , and Archadius , and those godly byshops , with Helen● the mother of Constantine the greate , whose examples Hierome dooth bring foorth for the probation of his doctrine .

Philalethes .

It foloweth not , because I do disalow their fact in this point , that therfore I do vtterly condemne them , or laye any sacriledge to their charge . The holy Apostle doth write after this maner of his contreymen the Iewes : Rom. 9. I beare them recorde that they haue a zeale of God , but not accordynge to knowledge . And I doo not doubt , but that they dyd of a zeale that which they dyd , but in the meane whyle they dyd minister a great occasion of stumblyng to theym that came after . Whereby it foloweth that they synned greuously againste the Lorde . 1 Ch. ca 17 The holye scripture doothe saye thus of Iosaphat . And the Lorde was with Iosaphat , because that he walked in the first wayes of Dauid his father , and soughte not Baalim , but sought the Lord GOD of his father , and walked in his commandementes , and not after the trade of Israell . Agayne , 1 Cht 20. he walked in the way of Asa his father , and departed not there from doyng that , which was right in the sight of God . Howbeit the hye places were not taken away . For the people had noy yet prepared theyr heartes vnto the god of their fathers . Who wold vtterly condemne this holy prince for that error , or lay any sacrilege to his charge ? But who would againe allowe that whiche he dyd ? So we ought not by and by to condemne those godlye princis Constantine and Archadius , Constantine Arc●●dius with the byshops , muche lesse to laye sacrilege to their charge , whom we beleue to be in blessedfulnes with their head and kyng our sauiour Iesu Christ . Yet in the meane while we may not alowe that fact of theyrs , for asmuche as it was withoute any warrant or example of the scriptures . Gedeon , Gedeon . emong the Iudges of Israell was coumpted most vpright and moste godly : and yet being caried away with to greate a zeale towarde religion , he sinned moste greuouslye againste the Lorde his God : For , hauing gathered together of the pray of the ennemies , earerynges and other lyke iewelles of golde , he dyd make vnto hymselfe an Ephod , Would god al kin●e , & prin●es that in profe● Christe woulde ma● this history . not for to set vp a newe religion 〈◊〉 straunge worshipping , but for a memoriall of the greate victorye , that god had geuen him against his enemies . At the first it did not seme to be any great offence , but at length by the reason of it , great Idolatry was committed in the lande , as the holy scripture doth testify , saiyng : And all Israell wente a whoring after it in Ophra , which was the destruction of Gedeon , & his house . yf Gedeon hadde bene wyse , he should haue asked councell of goddes worde , and not folowed his good intente . Yf those godly bishops , & emperours that Hierome doth speake of , had asked councell of the scriptures , and had bene ruled by them , they would not haue opened the sepulchres or graues of the dead , nor yet set forth their bones to be worshipped . For , vnto whom of the Saintes either in the new or in the olde Testament was euer this done ?

Eutra .

Yf men would haue contented them selues with the same rule , that God hath prescribed vnto vs in his worde , and wyth the laudable examples of the same such inconueniences would not haue growen in the chirch nor yet could such abhominable idolatry haue taken place among christen men , as we se , now to reigne almost in al places .

This shal wee fynde written of Moises : Den. 34. The historie of the death and buryeng of Moses . So Moyses the seruant of the lord , died there in the lande of Moab , according to the worde of the lorde , and he buried him in a valley in the lande of Moab , ouer against Beth-peor , but no man knoweth os his sepulchre vnto this daye . Yf the taking vp & translating of dead mennes bodies had bene expedient for the glory of God , & for the saluation of men , verely the lord wold not haue hidden such pretious relikes of his well beloued and faithfull seruant : For , without all controuersye Moses was the chiefest amonge all the prophetes , of whom we do rede after this manner : Nume . 12 Yf there bee a prophete of the lord among you , I will be knowen to him by a vision , & will speake vnto him by dreame . My seruant Moses is not so who is faithfull in all mine house . Vnto hym will I speake mouth to mouth , and by vision , and not in darke woordes , but he shal see the similitude of the lorde . Thys place doth the holye Apostle aleadge in his epistle to the Hebrues . And yet for all this , Moises beynge suche a man , is neyther translated , nor layed vp in a golden or syluer shrine , ther is no chapel nor church builded for him , he is not caried about in procession among a sorte of superstitious menne . Ther were some at that time , that would gladly haue doone it , and woulde haue spared no cost at all . Do we not rede in the Apochryphes that ther was a strife betwixt the aungelles and the diuel about the body of Moses , whereof Iude maketh mention in his Epistle ? And doubtles , Iudes p●stle . this was because that the diuel would kepe aboue the grounde the body of the faithful seruant of god , and bring it foorth vnto superstitious men for to be worshipped ▪ which thinge , the good angels perceauing what abhominable idolatrye would haue risen thervpon , would in no wise suffer , hauing a respect vnto the glory of God , and to mens saluation , which next vnto gods glorye , they do seeke aboue al thyngs .

Albion .

Do we not reede in the first boke of Moses , that the Israelites , did enba●● the bodye of Ioseph & did put it vp in a cheste in Egipt . This , I am sure , is an exaumple of the Canonical scriptures .

Ph●

Answer . I do not denye it . But no man is able to proue , that the Israelites kepte the body or bones of Ioseph for to haue them to be worshipped . For , no man did fal or knele doun before Iosephs tomb no man did bring the cheste that his body or bones were in , into the Tabernacle , no man did light candels or tapers beefore it . But Ioseph woulde by thys meane confirme and establish the faith of his people in the promisses of g●d , 〈…〉 ●ouching the lande of be heste . For , so doth Ioseph say to his bretherne : I am redy to dye and god will surely visite you , and br●ng you out of this land , vnto the land , whiche h● sware vnto Abraham , vnto Isaac , & vnto Iacob . And Ioseph toke an other of the children of Israell saying , God will surely visite you , and y● shal cary my bones hence . Paule beyn● a faithfull expositour of this facte or dede of Ioseph by faith , Hebr ●1 saith he , Iosephe , when he died made mention of the departing of the children of Israel , and gaue co●●aundement of hys bones . That is , because he doubted nothing of the worde and promise of god therfore did he commaunde his brethern at their goyng out of Egipt to cary out his bones into the land of Chanaan . So sure was he that the lord would according vnto his promises , bring the children of Israell oute of Egipte into the lande , that he had promised vnto their forefathers . After Moses , there were none among the prophets more samous 〈◊〉 of greatter renoune than Samuell , and H●lias were . Samuel . Helias . 〈…〉 . 5 2 K●n , 2. Yet we do not reede that any memoriall was appointed or set vp for him . For the holye scripture doth plainly speak of his death and buriyng after this maner : Samuell died and all Israell dyd gather them selues together , and did wepe for him , & did bury him in his house in ●ama . 〈…〉 As for Helias he was taken vp in a sy●e chariot not into a temple made with hand●s , but into heauen , partly that in that ex●mple we myght haue a most infallible testimony of our immortality , and of that moste excellente re●a●de , that GOD hathe prepared and layed vp for his faythfull prophetes , and partelye that by this meane all occasion of worshipping this holy prophetes body might be taken away . Some of the anciente writers are of opinion , that the body of the blessed virgin Marye , Epiphani was either by the angels caried vp into heauen , or els by their ministery , buried in such a place , as is knowen vnto no man vnto this day , because that god would not haue that chosen vessel , the temple of his holy spirit , and the mother of his onely begotten sonne , to be made anidole of superstitious and euill disposed persons . The holy scripture doth speak thus of Eliseus the prophete : Elizeus ● . Kin , 13. And Elizeus died and they buried him . And certaine bandes of the Moabites came in to the lande that yere . And as they wer burying a man , beholde they sawe the souldiours , therfore they did cast , the man into the sepulchre of Elizeus , and when the man was doune , and touched the bones of Elizeus , he reuiued or lyued again , and stoode vpon his fete . And yet we rede not , that after this miracle , the bones of Elizeus were taken vp , and translated , or that there was anye pylgrimage appoyncted vnto theym , or a churche of . S. Elizeus buylded and set vppe . We rede in Ecclesiasticus , or in the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach that after Elizeus death , Eccl. ●8 his body prophecied and that as he did wonders in his lyfe , so in deathe were his workes merueylous . And that yet for all thys , the people repented not , nor departed from their sinnes . Why the dead that ●●a . caste in to ● Elizeus ●●au● ta●e● againe . It doth appeare them that this miracle was not doone , for to teach the people , to worship or to geue godly honour vnto the faithful seruantes of god , but that therby , the auctoritye of Elizeus , whose doctrine in hys life thei contenned , might be confirmed , & that at this sight they might embrace the same doctrine , and turn again vnto the lorde their god , with all spede , and so escape the destruction that honge ouer their heades for their stubburnesse disobedience and rebellion . 1. Kin. ●● . Vnder that most holy & godly prince Iosias , when the bones of the fals prophets were brent , the sepulchre of the man of god was not ones touched : & yet we rede not that there was any pilgrimage vsed to it . Ob●e . 12. D● . All these examples , are only examples of the olde Testament : But what exaumples can ye bring out of the neue ?

PHILA .

Answer . Math. 11. Math 14. Act. ● . Among them the are borne of women , there arose not a greater ( as oure sauiour Iesus Christ doth testifye him self ) than Iohn Baptist . But the holy euangelist S. Mathew writeth thus of him : And when Iohn was beheaded , his disciples came , and toke vp his body and did bury it . Of Stephen the first martir of Christe , Luke in the Actes of the Apostelles doth write on this manner : And certayne men fearing god , caried Stephen among theym to be buried , & made great lamentation for him . Yf the taking vp or translating of the bodies of the dead Saincts had ben profitable vnto the churche of Christe , neyther the olde ancient churche that was afore him , nor yet the primitiue church that was nexte after him , shoulde haue wanted it or bene without such honoring of the faithfull seruantes of god if god would haue them to be honored after the same sorte . Therfore lette no man maruell that I will in no wyse alowe the doynges of kinges , and princes , and of bishops , which be contrarye to the scriptures and worde of god , and that I do vtterly reiecte the argumentes of Hierome , The aucto●● of ●od 〈…〉 as both weake and repugnant vnto goddes holy and sacred booke , the warraunt and auctoritye of which , ought to be preferred before the autority of aungels , much more , then , before the auctoritie of corruptible and mortall men . I would wyshe , that leauing the bodies of the dead Saintes in the place appointed of God for theym , there to reste in peace , and in hope of their glorious rising again , we should haue in due reuerence their true reliks whiche are , 〈…〉 . the exaumple of theyr stedfast fayth and beliefe , their godlye lyfe and conuersation , and theyr sound doctrine that they haue left behynd them for our instruction , and the edifiyng of the true church of god .

Albion .

I maruell , that ye do so stoutly defend Vigilantius . Doth not this holy father and doctour of the holy catholike church , I pray you , lay to his charge , that he did rayse vp againe , and reuiue the heresy of the Caines , whiche as a Scorpion , did venime the whole body of the churche ? It appeareth by the booke whyche Tertullian dydde write of heresyes , Te●● . li. ha●● . where he speaketh of the errours of the Ophites , and Chaldeis , whiche were Cains , or Cainites , that the same heresy did deny the resurrection of the fleshe . Hierom contra Vigilantium . Hierome doth that Vigilan● with many heresies , but how timely ye shall after wardes knowe . And therfore Hierome sayeth : Mortuum suspicaris , & ideirco blasphemas . Lege euangelium , Deus Abraham , Deus Isaac , & Deus Iacob , non est deus mortuorum , sed viuentium . Thou doest ( saieth , he ) suspecte that he is deade , and therfore doest thou blaspheme . Reade the gospell : The God of Abraham , the god of Isaac , and the god of Iacob . He is not the GOD of the deade , but of the liuyng . Againe , doth he not charge him with the heresy of the Eunomians , hys words are these : Rides de reliquis martyrum , & cum autore huius haereseos Eunomio , ecclesus Christi calumniam struis , nec tali societate terreris , vt cadem contra nos loquaris , qux illè contra Ecclesiam loquitur ? Omnes , enim , sectatores cius Basilicas Apostolorum & martyrum non ingrediuntur , vt scilicet mortuum adorent Eunomium , cuius libros maioris autoritatis arbitrantur , quam euangelia .

That is to saye , dooest thou make a laughynge stocke of the relykes of the martyres , and wyth the auctoure of thys heresy Cunomius , brynge a calumnie or sclaunder vppon the churches of CHRISTE , neyther arte thou frayed wyth suche felowshyppe , that thou dareste speake the same agaynste vs , that he speaketh agaynste the Churche ? For , all hys dysciples or sectatoures and folowers , doo not enter into the churches of the martyres and Apostelles , that so they maye worshyppe Eunomius beeynge deade , whose bookes they dooe iudge to gee of greater auctority than the Gospelles . Yf these thynges bee true , small credyte , Answer . oughte to bee geuen vnto hym .

PHILALETHES .

And I wonder and meruaylle that thys holye Father durste saye any suche thynge to Vigilantius charge . How falsly Hierom d●i laye those heresies to Vigilantius charge . For as touchynge the fyrst , Vigilantius neuer denyed the resurrection or rysynge agayne of the fleshe , nor yet the Saluacion of the same , but dydde onelye resyste the superstitious worshyppynge of it in the dead creatures . Dothe he I pray you , denie the resurrection of the flesh that doth forbyd the superstitious worshipping of it ? Sai●● August●● ▪ 〈◊〉 heresies of the C● 〈…〉 Saint Augustin in his boke of heresies , saith , that the Caines were smitten with suche blyndenesse , that they worshipped that wicked man Cain , and Hierome is not ashamed to call them Cainites , whiche will not worship men , nor the bones of men .

This foule name oughte rather to bee geuen vnto them that teach and maintaine the idolatrous woorshypping of dead men . Eunomius and 〈…〉 . Nowe as touchyng the seconde . Eunomius was a greate portion of Arrius , and therfore he did deny the diuinitie or godheade of Christe , wherof it came to passe , that he did vtterly despise the testimonies of the Apostles and martyrs , whiche they hare vnto our sauior Iesu Christ : yea he contemned also the bodies of the sainctes , and the miracles that vertue of Christ dyd worke about theim for a testimonie and profe of his godhead . He had written bokes against Christ , The d●●●rence is 〈◊〉 and dyd attribute the miracles of the holy Apostles vnto the power of Sathan . But Vigilantius dyd neither deny the godhead or Christ , ●ilantius ●nd ●uno ●●s . nor yet dyd in any wise contemne the bodies of the saintes , nor the miracles that were wrought and done about them , as Eunomius , accordynge to his damnable heresie , had doon , but he did teache to worship one God , whom the martyrs did preach , and whervnto the myracles that were wrought did leade vs : how beit he did catholikely forbidde , that the bones of the dead should in no wise be worshipped : and yet beyng of so an vpright and sounde iudgement , he is of Hierome most shamefully condemned of heresy , though he coulde not be ignorant , that there was great difference betwixt the faith and religion of Vigilantius , and the abhominable heresy of Eunomius . Where ●●e o●e ●●d ●●ara● the ●tick that ●e 〈◊〉 against ●i●i●antius .

Eutrapelus ,

This had Hierom learned of his Rhetoricians , which do teache that we muste with odious names and titles vrge them , whome we can not ouercome with iust argumentes .

Philalethes

All men I truste , doo well s●t ▪ what weake argumentes Hierome did bring , and how that he dyd wrongfully burden Vigilantius with the heresy of the Cainites and of Eunomius , sith that he did both confesse Christ his diuinity and godhead , and also the resurrection or risyng agayne of the fleshe . Therefore , fearynge nothyng suche odions titles and names , that the enemies of the truthe bee wont to defame vs with all , lette vs attribute more to the infallible testimonies of the scriptures , then to the weake reasons & argumentes either of Hierome , or of any other besydes , thoughe he were an aungell that came downe frome heauen , sithe that in the mattiers of religyon , we ought to beleue or credite no manne , bicause that he is either lerned or holy , but bicause that he doth strongly proue by the vndoubted and infallible tertes and authorities of the scriptures the thyng that he doothe take in hande to teache . Nothing is here spok● in the dispraise of Hierome . I haue not spoken this , of any affection , or in the dispraise of that holy father , but in the defence of the truthe , and for the edifying or profite of the faithfull congregation . I gladdely always acknowledge and reuerence in hym the excellente gyftes of GOD , but in the meane whyle wee doe also confesse , that he dydde as man write and sette foorth many thynges , which we can not with a safe conscience receaue or allowe .

Albion .

Obie . 13 Cypri li●e pi. prima . Thus , I am sure , doth the holy martyr S. Cyprian , write in his Epi. 10 Cornelius : Memores nostri inuicem simus cōcorders atque vnanimes vtrobique pro nobis semp oremus , pressuras & angustias mutua charitate releuemus , & si quis hinc nostrum prior diuinae dignationis celeritate praecesserit , perseueret apud Deum nostra dilectio , pro fratribus & sorotibus nostris apud misericordiam patris non cesset oratio , That is to say : Lette vs be myndefull one of an other , and beyng of one heart & mynde both where , lette vs always praye for eche other , and with mutuall charitie and loue , releue our afflictions and troubles or anguysshes : And if any of vs doo by the diuine callyng of God , or by the celeritie or quicknesse of his diuine dignation , wille , or pleasure , departe hence afore , ●ette oure loue perseuere or continue with God , and our prayer in no wyse ceasse vnto the mercye of GOD , for oure bretherne and sisters , whyles they are here . These wordes of the holy martyr do plainlye testify , that the deade Saints do praye for vs , Answer . Cyp●● de lapsis . as longe as we bee here in this vale of miserye .

Phila.

None can better make aunswer to that , whiche ye haue aleaged than Cyprian him self . For , in his sermon de lapsis , he saithe playnely thus : God onely can haue mercye . He onely can geue pardon , to the synnes , that are committed against him , which did beare our synnes , which did sorow for vs , whom god did deliuer for our sinnes . Man can not be greater than god , nor yet remit or forgeue that by his owne indulgence or pardon , which with a heinous faute is committed againste the lord , lest this also be imputed vnto him for a greater crime or offerd , if he shold be ignoraunt , that it hath bene said before : Huc . ● Math. ● Mat. 8. luke 9 Cursed be euery man that putteth no truste in man . The lorde oughte to be prayed to , the lorde ought : by our satisfaction to be pleased , whiche sayeth , that he will denye him , of whome he is denied , and which alone hath receiued all iudgement of the father . And to those doth he adde by and by : Although the workes of the rightuous , doo auayle muche beefore the iudge , yet the same whiche is promised by mans promisse , is not by and by granted by the diuine maiestie of GOD . Noah . Gene. 6. Daniell Danie. 6. What was more rightuous then Noah , who when the earthe was replenished with sin , was sounde alone to bee righteous . What was stronger than Daniell , to suffre martyrdome , throughe the constancye and stedfastnesse of his faith , more fortunate through the fauor of God , who as often as he did combate , he dyd ouercome , and when he dyd ouercome , he dyd ouerlyue ? what was more prompt and redy in workes than Iob , Iob. stronger in tentation , more pacient in sorowe , more lowly and humble in feare , truer in faithe , and yet , if they had prayed , God sayd , he woulde not haue graunted them their petition , for , when Ezechiell prayed for the synnes of the people . When a lande , saith he , synneth against me by committyng a trespasse , then will I stretche oute myne hande vppon it , Eze. 14. and will breake the staffe of the bread thereof , and wil sende famine vpon it , and I wil destroy man and beaste foorthe of it . Though these three menne , Noah , Daniel , and Iob , were amonge theym : they shoulde deliuer but their owne soules by theyr owne righteousnes : they shoulde saue neither sonnes nor daughters , but thei alone should be saued . And so al that is asked , is not in the preiudice and power of him that asketh but in the wil of him that geueth , neither dothe mannes sentence or iudgemente challenge or claime here any thyng vnto it selfe , onlesse the diuine censure doth graunt it . And a litle after : They can do nothyng against the Gospel which for the gospel are made martirs . Let no man , well beloued brethern , defame the dignitie of martirs , lett no man destroie theyr glories and crounes . The strength of the incorruptible faith remaineth safe , neither can he say or doo any thyng against Christ , whose whole hope , faith and glorie , A short exposition of Cyprians wordes . is altogether in Christ .

Eutrape .

If the Lord onely can geue pardon of sinnes : if the seruant can not forgeue that whiche is committed against the maister : if he be accursed the putteth his trust in man : if the Lord , & not a creature ought to be prayed vnto : if that which is asked , doth not slande in the will of the asker , but in the will and pleausre of the geuer : if they that are most righteous shall onely delyuer them selues , and not their sonnes & daughters : if the martyrs saye or doo nothing agaynste Christ : how muche ( I beseche you ) can they gather out of the authorite of Cyprian for to confirme their doctrine of their idolatrous inuocation of the saintes . If all thinges be well considered , this semeth rather to haue escaped him than otherwise , This is much like ●nto the comm●ne saying ●od h●ue mercy on his soule . Au. de pastoribus . cap 8. Psal. 121. when he did thus of a feruent loue write to his frend and brother in Christ Cornelius . The feruent loue I saye , that he bare vnto hym , dyd by a certayne violence extorte this of him .

PHILALE .

Ye shall also heare what Saincte Augustine in his booke De Pastoribus sayeth : There bee also ( sayeth he ) good mountaynes . I haue lyfted vp myne eyes vnto the Mountaines , from whence helpe shall come vnto me . My helpe ( sayeth he ) is frome the LORDE , whyche made heauen and earth . Do not thinke that thou doest any iniury vnto the holy mountaynes , when thou sayest : My helpe is not in the mountaynes , but my healpe is frome the Lorde , whiche made heauen and earthe . The mountains their selues doo crie out the same vnto thee . He was a mountain that did cry out : I heare that there bee scismes or diuisions among you , so that euery one of you dooth say : I am Paules , I am Apollos , 1. Corin. ● I am Cephas , I am Christes . List vp thine eies vnto that mountaine , heare what he saith , and remain in hym . Heare also what folowethe . Whether was Paul crucified for you ? Therefore when thou haste lifted vp thyne eies vnto the mountaines from whence helpe commeth vnto thee , that is , vnto the authors of the scriptures , harken vnto hym , that with al his marow , that with all his bones doth crye out . Lorde , who is lyke vnto the ? that thou beeyng sure or certified , mayste without any iniurie of the mountains say : My helpe commeth from the lorde which hath made heauen and earth . It shal be so farre of , that then the mountaines will be angrye with thee , that then they wil both loue & fauor thee the more . Yf we put our trust in the faith●●l seruantes of god then will 〈◊〉 be in●● with 〈◊〉 . Reue. 12. Yf thou dost put thy hope in them , then wil they be sory . The angell which did shew many heauenvly wonderful things vnto man , was worshipped of man but the aungell reuoking him vnto the lorde , as he was lyftynge vp his eies vnto a mountaine , saide : Do it not , worshyp hym . For , I am thy felowe seruaunt , and of thy brethren . Obie . 14 What , I beseche you , could be spoken more plainly than this : All our helpe is from God , who in all perilles must be called vppon . If thou puttest thy hope in God , the saintes doo loue thee , Au. con●●● faustrū M●●i●n . Answer . 〈…〉 in my boke 〈…〉 ●●lle● the oue●th● 〈…〉 the 〈…〉 of w●●kes . yf thou puttest thy confidence in them , they are sory .

Alb.

Yet this holy father writing● , Cotia Faustum , Manichaeum dooth say , that the christian people dyd celebrate and keepe together the memories of martirs both to stirre them vp to ●●●ation or folowyng of theym , and that they might haue felowshippe with their merites , and be helped by their prayers .

PHILA .

As concerning me●●●s ●e haue sufficiently spoken of them in our communication and talke , that we haue had alredy touching the ouerthrow of the Iustification of workes , and of the vaine and fonde doctrine of the Merites of men , and therfore we will come to this , where he saithe : And that wee may be helped by their prayers .

Didy .

There ( mee thinke ) Augustine doothe playnly affirme the inuocation or calling vpon , of the dead saints . For why should he els say , that the chirsten people did keepe the me●ories or remembrances of the martyrs , that they might be helped by their prayers .

Philaleth● ▪

But howe dothe this agree with that , whiche he writeth bothe in this place , and also in the two and twentieth boke De ciuitate Dei , and tenth chapiter . He saith plainely in the place before alleaged , that they did not set vp altars , nor yet offered vp sacrifices vnto the martyres . And in the boke De ciuitate Dei , which we spake of euen now , he writeth thus : The Gentiles haue builded temples , & set by altars , & ordeined priests , and offred sacrifices vnto their gods . But we do not buyld vp temples vnto our martirs , as vnto gods , but remembrances as vnto dead men , whose spirites & soules do lyue with God . Neither doo we there set vp aultars , in the whiche we shold offer sacrifices vnto martires , but we do offer sacrifices vnto the only God of the martirs , and ours , at the which sacrifice , as men of God , which haue ouercomed the world with theyr confession , they are in theyr place , and in their order named . And yet they be not called vpon , or prayed vnto , of the priest , that offreth the sacrifice . For , Praiers are ●●e sacrifi●es of the ele●● a●d ●●osen of god . he is the priest of god , & not theirs . Nowe this is most euident & plaine , the prayers are the sacrifices of the saints , I mean of the elect and chosen people of God , beyng sanctified in the blood of his son Iesus Christ : we mai conclude then , euen vpon the wordes of S. Augustin , that prayers ought to be offered vnto God only , and not vnto the dead sainctes , that is , that God onely , & not the dead saintes , ought of al the godly to be called vpon . Herevnto dothe that belong and pertaine , whiche he speaketh also in that place , sayenge Sancti vel homines vel angeli id sibi tribu● nolunt , quod vni deo deberi no●unt . Holy men or holye aungelles , will not haue the same to bee attributed vnto theym , which they knowe to be due vnto God onely . We maye gather by this , that they will none of our prayers , nor of our inuocation . The proude & diuelishe spirites do vsurpe that which doth perteine vnto God onely . Therefore , as Daniell woulde aske nothyng of any man , Danie. ● . but of God only : so all the godly will in their praiers call vpon none other , but on the true lyuyng God thorough his sonne Iesus Christ our lord , and of him only aske all thynges that they haue neede of . Nowe as touching his opinion , wherby he doothe thynke and suppose , that the soules of the righteous doo pray for vs in heauen , for as much as it is only grounded vpon coniectures or gessyng , and not vppon the infallible worde of God , nor vpon any strong argumentes or reasons taken out of the same , we may without any perill of our saluation , reiect or refuse it , cleauing vnto that whiche we haue alleadged before oute of his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda , wher he goūdeth himselfe altogether vpon the holy scriptures , affirmyng that the blessed soules departed be paste all sollicitude and care for the liuing .

Albion .

Nowe sithe that the sayinges of the fathers will not helpe , ●h ect 15 e● . 48 I will come to the plain scriptures . These are Iacobs wordes . The aungell which hath deliuered me from all euill , blesse the children , & let my name be called vpon them , and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac . In this autoritye of the scriptures , they note two speciall thinges . Fyrste how that Iacob dothe confesse , that he was deliuered by the aungell , and that this aungel doth blesse . Secondly how that his name and the name of his fathers shoulde be called vpon those children , which is as much , as if he should haue sayde : They shall call vppon my name , and vpon the name of my forefathers . ●ach● . 1. Herunto do they adde this place of Zacharye . And the aungell of the Lorde aunswered and sayde : O Lorde of hostes , how long wilt thou be vnmercifull to Hierusalem , and to the cities of Iuda , with whom thou hast ben displeased nowe these three score and ten yeres . Hereby doe we plainely learne , say they , that the aungels doo care for our miseries , and praye for vs . They be also kepers & guides of men , yea they be appointed to waite vpon them . For thus we rede in Exodus : Exod. ●3 . Behold , saith the lord , I send myn angel before thee to kepe thee in thy way , & to bring thee to the place which I haue prepared . And in the psalmes : Psal 91. for , he shal geue his angels charge ouer thee , to kepe thee in all thy ways . They shall beare thee in their hands , that thou hurt not thy fote against a stone . Dani. 10. The angels be also called presidents of realmes , because that vnto them whole contreis be committed .

Phil.

First & formost , as touchyng those thinges that bee generally obiected or brought against vs of the angels , Answer . how they do blesse & pray for vs , howe they are presidentes , guides & kepers bothe of men and of realmes , I haue lieffer bryng the answeres of the ancient fathers , than myne own reasons . Lactantius in his diuine institutions writeth after this maner : Lactanti insti . 2. li. ca 17. Neither hath God nede of any name , sith that the is alone , nor the angels , sith they be immortall , will suffer themselues to be called goddes , whose one and only office and duetye is , to bee at the commaundemente and becke of GOD . For , we saye that the worlde is gouerned of god , as a prouince is by a ruler , whose apparitours , and officers no man will cal his felowes in the gouernement of the prouince . And yet they may do many thinges besydes the commaundemente of the ruler , through his ignoraunce whiche is an humayne infirmitye . But the ruler & gouernour of the whole world , who knoweth all thinges , and from whose eies nothyng is hidden , hath alone with his sonne , power ouer all thynges , neither is there any thyng in the angelles but a necessitie to obeye . Therfore , they will haue no honour to be attributed vnto them , whose honor is in god . But they which are reuolted and fallen awaye from the ministerye and seruice of god , do go about to chalenge vnto theym selues , the name of god , and the worshipping of the gods . Saint Augustine , Au. lib. 10 de ciuitate dei . ca. 12. dothe in all thynges agree with Lactantius . What miracles soeuer ( sayeth this holy father ) bee so diuinely wrought & done , eyther by angels or by som other mean that they do commend the religion & worshipping of the only god , in whom only the blessedful lyfe is : we must beleue that they are truly done of them or by them whiche do loue vs according to the truth & godlinesse , God him selfe working in them . And ( when the aungels do heare vs , god him selfe doth heare in theym , as in his true temple not made wyth handes . Ibi. ca. 16. And in an other place , yf therfore any angels wil haue sacrifices to be offred vnto themselues , they that wyl haue the sacrifice to be offred not vnto them selues , but vnto god the creator of all thinges , whom they do serue , are to be preferred before them . For , hereby do they shewe howe syncerely they loue vs , when by the sacrifice they wil assubiectize vs , not vnto theim selues , but vnto him , by the contemplation of whom , they are blessed , and seke that we shoulde come vnto him , from whome they neuer wente awaye . Although thys hadde bene sufficiente for to aunswer al the obiections , that can be made of the angels , yet wil I for to make the matter more plain , adde these few wordes , that is to saye , howe that the same is many tymes attributed vnto aungels , as vnto the farther cause , whiche in dede doth properly perteyn to god only , but is attributed vnto the angels , as to ministers , instrumentes and meanes .

Di.

I do not well vnderstande what your meaning is . Exod. 23. How the name of god 〈◊〉 in h●●●●●ed .

Philalethes .

I shall make you anone to vnderstande it . In Exodus , the lorde dothe with exprsse wordes speake thus of his angel . My name ( saieth he ) is in him , that is , I wil geue hym myne autoritye , and whatsoeuer he shall do , he shall doo it in my name , he shall do it by my vertue and power . So doth holy Stephen speak also : And when fourty yeres were expired , Actu. 7. ther appeared to him , in the wildernesse of Mount Syna , an aungell of the lorde . Exo , 3. Then , by and by , dothe he adde : And the voyce of the lorde came vnto hym , saying : I am the god of thy fathers , the god of Abraham , the god of Isaac , and the GOD of Iacob . Loe , he dothe expresselye calle hym GOD whome he hadde already called an aungel , because that he vnderstode , that the aungell dydde all whyche he dydde in the name of God , and at hys commaundement .

EVTRAPELVS .

Sith that this aungell dothe call hym selfe God , I doo stedfastelye beeleue that he was Chryste , The angel of the g●● c●unsaile , the ange●● of the testament . Augu. l● que . ●● ex od● 2. c. 3. the mediatour , who is the eternall God , and who in the scriptures is called Angelus magni consilii . & angelus Testamenti , that is to say : the aungell of greate counsell , and the aungell of the Testamente .

Philalethes .

Ye doo not beleue amysse : For , Sainct Augustine , in his questions vppon Exodus , dothe write of it on thys manner : The Lord cried vnto him oute of the bushe : The lord in the angell , or that lorde & the aungell , which is called the aungell of greate counsayle ▪ Tertull●● contra ●●xeam . and so Chryste is vnderstanded , whervnto maye bee added the sayings of Tertullian in hys boke contra Praxeam . It is the sonne ( sayth he ) who at the begynnyng dydde condemne that moste proude towre , dashyng out and destroying the tongues punnishyng the whole worlde , wyth violence of waters , raynynge fyre and brymstone vpon Sodome & Gomorre , beyng GOD of God . For , he dyd always come down to speake wyth men from Adam vnto the Patriarches and prophets in vision , in dreame . &c. Sith then that this angell of the testament , whiche is Christe , was promised vnto Abraham : Israell coulde no better expresse the faith of his mynd , than with these wordes : The aungell which hath deliuered me from all euill , blesse these children . For , he vnderstode the angel of great counsaile , euen the Lord Iesus , who alone is the blessyng , saluation , righteousnesse , and sanctification of his people .

Albion .

But what saye ye to that which I alledged out of Zacharie ? For , there he doothe with expresse wordes testifie , that the angell prayed vnto God for the delyueraunce of the people : if the angels do pray for vs , The place of the first chapter of zacharie . why shoulde not the blessed soules departed , pray also for vs ?

Phil.

What if by the same angell we should vnderstand our sauior Iesu Christe , who as mediatour prayed for the saluation of his Churche , whiche was then troubled , when all the countreyes aboute them , Hieron in zacharia . were at rest ? Hierome hym selfe writyng vpon this place , doothe by the angell of the Lord , who stode among the myrre trees , & who vpon the occasion of the aunswere which they had made , whome the lorde had sent throughoute al the whole worlde , began so ernestly to praye for Hierusalem , and the cities of Iuda , vnderstande the aungell of great counsayl . Again , let vs by waye of disputation graunt , that the angels do praye or are carefull for vs . Shal ye bee able to proue by it , that we oughte therfore to call vpon them , and displacyng Christ , the onelye mediatour bewixt god and men , to make theim our mediatours , aduocates & intercessors , or that the blessed soules departed doo make intercession for vs , vnto our heauenly father ? Ye haue learned beefore out of Sainct Augustine , that the holy aungels will in no wise suffer that any sacrifice shoulde be offred vnto theym , The holye aungels wil haue no sacrifices to bee offered vnto them , ergo they wil not be praied vnto . but will haue all sacrifices to be offred vnto him onely , whose seruaunts they are . Nowe it is moste playne , that the prayers of the faithfull congregation , are called sacrifices , the aungels then , who do onely seeke the glorye of him , whome they doo serue , will in no wise suffer that the faithfull congregation , shold ma●e any prayers vnto them . Moreouer what should the carefulnes or praiers of the aungelles profite vs , excepte we be firste reconciled vnto god . Exo. 33. The lorde said vnto Moises : Departe , go vp from hence , thou and the people , ( whiche thou hast brought vp out of the land of Egipt ) into the land , which I promised vnto your forefathers : and I will sende myne aungel before thee . For , I will not go vp with thee , because thou arte a stifnecked people , lest I consume thee in the waye . Here the lorde promised vnto Moises & vnto the people hys an●el , but hear what foloweth streight waies after . And when the people heard these euill tydinges , they sorowed , and no man did put on his best raymentes . The scriptures do cal the helpe and assistaunce of the aungels , euill tydings as longe as god is angry with vs , and not yet reconciled . Therfore , Moyses doth laboure , as much as in hym lieth , yea it is all his study and care , that god may be reconciled vnto hys people .

Whiche thing , he goeth not aboute to obtayne by desyrynge the aungelles to praye for him and the people , but by pouring oute his whole harte beefore God . Now they that are reconciled vnto God , doo vnderstande , that they are through Christ reconciled to him . Therfore , they doo whollye depende vppon God onely , in hym onely doo they reioyce , in hym only haue they theyr hole affiance and truste , they haue no neede of the intercession of angels , but doo offer vnto God onely , their troubled spirit , their contrite and humbled hart . Which pleaseth the angels excedingly well , Christ him self saying in his gosspel , that the angels doo reioyce at the conuersion of sinners . Let vs therfore endeuor our selues , that we may turne a right vnto the Lorde , & be reconciled ●●●o him , which thyng muste be doone not by the intercession of angels , but by the grace onely and intercession of our sauior I●sus Christ . Are not all angels ministring spirites , Hebr 1. sent foorth to minister for their sakes , that shal be heires of saluation ? Why do we not then rather worship , & call vpon the lord of angels and of men , than vpon mens felow seruantes ? Reue. 22. When Iohn had fallen downe at the feete of the aungell , this do oth he heare of the angel : Se thou do it not for I am thy felow seruant , and of thy bretherne the prophetes , and of theim that kepe the wordes of this boke ▪ worship God .

Albion

Ye haue not yet answered to the wordes of Iacob , where he saith : And let my name , & the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac bee called vpon them . My faithfull guydes did say vnto me , that this is as much as if he should haue said : And they shal cal vpon my name , & vpon the name of my forfathers . Againe : They dyd alledge , that when Moyses prayed for the people , he did speake these wordes : Exo. 34 , Remember , O Lord , thy seruantes Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob , vnto whom thou did dest sweare by thine owne selfe . Lo ( say they ) Moyses prayenge for the people , dooth pray by the name of the holy patriarches that were dead . 4. Kin. 1● These ar also the wordes of the Lord . I will defend this Citie , and saue it , for myne owne sake , and for Dauid my seruantes sake . Is it not moste plaine by this , that for the prayers and merites of the Sainctes , synners are spared , wholle nations and cities saued and preserued ?

PHILALE .

Youre blynde guydes through ignoraunce of the holy tongue gather of a thynge misvnderstanded , Why Iacob willed that his name should bee called vpon Ephraim and Manasses & wh●t his meaning was Esa 4. a folishe and fonde conclusion , or rather a false and erronious doctrine . Iacob , otherwise called Israell did by adoption receaue Iosephes children in to the numbre of his owne children , that they mighte haue equall or euen portion of the lande of behest with them . And therfore ( sayeth Iacob ) they shall beare my name , and not the name of my son Ioseph : they shall be called Iacobs or Israels children and not Iosephs . This shall we fynde written in Esay the prophete : Then shall seuen wiues take holde of one man , and say , we will lay all our meate , and clothing together in commune : tantum nomen tuum inuoce tur super nos , onely let thy name be called vpon vs , that is , onely let vs be called thy wiues , and beare thy name , and so take away from vs oure opprobiousnes and shame . By as good reason may we by this text of Esay , proue that women ought to call vppon the names of theyr husbandes , when they be deade , as they canne by the texte that they doo alleadge proue that Ephraim and Manasses Iosephs children ought to haue called vpon the name of Iacob , Danic . 9. Abraham and Isaac . Dominc ( saith Daniel ) respice ciuitatem , super quam inuocatum est nomen tuum : lord looke vpon the citye , that thy name is called vpon , that is which is called by thy name , I mean the city of god . In like maner doo they declare their blinde ignoraunce , when they do bringe in for the mayntenance of theyr idolatrous inuocation of the deade Saintes , How the place brought out of the 32. chap. of Exodus ought to be ●nderstanded . these woordes of Moyses : remember , O Lorde , Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob , as though thys were like vnto that which they haue continually in their mouthes , sayinge : Sainct Abraham , ora pro nobis , sainct Abraham praye for vs , or obteine by thy prayers & merites , that god vouchesafe to forgeue vs oure synnes . Esa. 63. It is easye to see in the prophete Esay how little they did trust in the merites and intercessions of the forefathers . For there the hole churche crieth out , saying : Where is thy zeale & thy strength , the multitude of thy mercies & of thy compassions ? they are restrained from me . Doubtlesse thou art our father . For , Abraham knoweth us not , neither is Israell acquainted with vs , but thou Lorde , art our father and redemer , and thy name is euerlasting .

Therfore , Moses dyd not call vppon them , whom he knowe right well to be ignorant of the estate that they were in but vpon the true liuyng God our heauenly father , puttyng hym in remembrance of his promises . For , with expresse wordes he sayth : Remembre thy seruants , vnto whom thou hast sworne by thy selfe , and vnto whom thou hast saide : he saith therfore , remember our fathers because the God had with an othe promised vnto the fathers , that he would be the god of their sede : And of this promise doth he put god in remembrance , now at this present . And hereunto semeth that to pertaine , whiche the Lord himselfe dooth speake in Exodus . The Lord god of your fathers , Exod 3. the God of Abraham , the God of Isaac , and the God of Iacob , hath sent me vnto you . This is my name foreuer , and my memoriall frome generation to generation . Therfore , God would be so called and prayed vnto , that is , he would be put in remembraunce of his promises , not for his owne , but for our own sake . But now that we haue our sauior Iesus Christ , in whose blood , both the promises and couenant be established and sealed vp , in whose name should we offer vp oure prayers vnto God , but in his onely ?

Albion ,

What say ye to the last sentence ? ye haue not yet aunswered to it .

Philalethes .

It may be aunswered two maner wayes . Firste , The exposit●● of the place that 〈◊〉 ale a●● out of . 4. K●● . 19. 2 Sam 7. we must consider the promisse of God , that he made vnto Dauid , touching the seede that shold come of hym , and the stablenesse and eternitie of his kyngedome . The wordes of the promyse are these : Whenne thy dayes bee fulfylled , thou shalte sleape with thy fathers , and I will lett vp thy sede after thee , whiche shall procede out of thy body , and will establishe his kyngdom . &c. These thinges are expounded by many , of kynge Salomon , and of his reigne or kyngdomme , but no manne will denie , but that the same may be vnder●●anded of the sede of Dauid , or of his posteritie or other kinges that o● folow after him . For , this is moste manifest and playn , that for this promise sake , many kynges , and the whole realme were spared . 1. Kin. 15. In the historie of Abiah , this promisse was renewed . For so we reade there . And the hart of Abiah was not perfect with the Lorde his God , as the hart of Dauid his father . But for Dauids sake , the Lorde his god , did geue hym a light in Hierusalem , and did set vp his sonne after him , and established Ierusalem . Now , this is asmuch , as if he had saied : Therefore , God dyd not destroy Abiah , his kyngdome , and the citie of Hierusalem , because that God had promised , that he would not take away his mercy from the house of Dauid , nor suffer that he should want sede or posteritie , or that his kingdom shold vtterly decaye . It is then euident and plaine , that Abiah was spared , for the promise sake , that was made vnto Dauid : 4. Kin. 19 therfore it must folowe necessarily that Ezechias was also spared for this promise sake , and that these sentences or sayenges : I will defend this citie for myne own sake : and for Dauid my seruauntes sake : and I will defende this citie for myn own sake , & for myn own promisse sake , which I made vnto Dauid , be equipollent or of one force . Secondly thus may the answer be made : that God did spare bothe that city & realm for his owne sake , and for his Christes sake . For , the Prophetes are wont by a figure called Antonomasia , to cal our sauiour Iesu Christ , Dauid . Antonomasia . And the promise , wherof we spake before , was in very deede completed or fulfylled in Christ . Thus dothe the Lord speake in Ezechiell : I will , sayeth he , raise vp a shepeheard ouer them , Eze 34. and he shal fede them , euen my seruant Dauid , he shall fede them , & he shal be their shepheard . And I the Lord will be their God , and my seruant Dauid shal be the prince among them , I the Lorde haue spoken it . Hie. 23. The like place shall ye fynde in Ieremie . But none of all the expositors dyd expounde these places otherwyse than of Christ , & the Gospell of Iohn doothe manifestely declare , that these Scriptures oughte to be expounded of Christ . Therefore the Lorde spared Hierusalem , for the Lorde Iesu Christes sake , whome it behoued to be manifested in that citie , and his name and doctrine , frome thens to bee published throughout all the whole world . Therfore , Daniell the prophete prayeng vnto the Lorde for the repairing of the citie and of the temple , Danie. 9. maketh his praier after this sort : Heare , O our God , the prayer of thy seruaunt , make thy face to shyne ouer the sanctuarie , whiche is destroyed , for the lorde sake . As yf he shoulde say : Oure maners , oure life and conuersation did deserue other wyse , but yet remembre the lorde thy Christ , whome thou hast promysed vnto vs . Esa 2. For by Esaie and Micheas he hadde made this promise : It shal be in the laste dayes , that the mountayne of the house of the lorde , shall bee prepared in the toppe of the mountains , and shall bee exalted aboue all the hylles , and all nations shall slow vnto it . And many people shall go and saye : Come , and lette vs come vp to the mountaine of the lorde , to the house of the God of Iacob , and he will teache vs his wais , and we wille walke in his pathes , for the lawe shall go foorthe of Sion , and the woorde of the lorde ; frome Hierusalem . Whenne we doo then by Dauid vnderstande oure sauioure Iesu Christe , who in Esaie is of GOD called his seruaunt , we brynge no newe exposition , nor yet wraste the Scriptures , but sette foorthe the playne sense and meanyng of the holy ghoste , to the greate commendation of the glorie of oure Sauioure Iesu Christe .

Albion .

Obie . 16 Iob. ● . These woordes shall ye fynde written in Iob : Calle nowe , yf any wyll answere thee , and turne thee to somme of the Sainctes . Here are we expressely commaunded in oure troubles and afflictions to turne our selues to the saintes .

Didymus .

I thought that there had bene no place in all the whole scriptures so playne for the praying vnto the Sainctes as the sames is . Answer . The fondnes of the aduersaries in aleaging of the scriptures .

Philalethes .

And I thought that the ennemies of the truthe , had neuer ben so foolishe as to haue aleaged that place for the maintenaunce and confirmation of their doctrine . For there they shoote altogether besydes the cusshion , not marking to what ende Eliphas dooth speake those woordes . Ye shall therfore vnderstand that Iob didde affirme , that plagues and calamities dyd not alwayes happen for synne : whiche thynge he proueth by his exaumple . The true sense of the place , that they do aleadge out of the .5 . of Iob For the Lorde , sayth he , hath not brought me into this calamitie because of my sinnes , but accordyng to his good wil and pleasure . This will not his aduersaries admitt , and specially Eliphas , who goeth aboute to proue , that no calamitie hapneth to any man , but onely for his sinnes , and that no man is punished but onely for his faulte , prouyng besydes that all men are synners , and that no man is cleane in the syght of God , although few do acknowledge the same ( geuyng in the meane whyle a priuie nippe vnto Iob , although he did not acknowledge himself to be a sinner , and this was because he vnderstoode not Iobs meaning ) and therfore they wer taken awaye and cut of , in their ignorance . That this might be made more plaine and manifest , he speaketh vnto Iob after this maner : Call any man , that is name me any man . As if he shold say : Bring me any man , that hath not by his wyckednesse and heynous synnes deserued the calamitie that is com vppon him : turne thee to any of them that be called Saintes , meanyng , that it was impossible , for to fynde any in all the whole world , which did not deserue by his owne sinnes to haue trouble , aduersitie , and affliction .

Albion .

Obie . 17 Hiero. 15. What will ye say to these woordes of Hieremie ? Though Moses and Samuell stoode before me , yet haue I no heart to this people . Why , say my gentylmen , should Hieremie speake so of the deade , excepte be knowe that they made intercession for the lyuyng ?

Philalethes .

Answer . I may a great deale better reason after this maner : Sith that neither Moses nor Samuell dyd praye for the people of Israell , in that extreme peryll that they were in , it appereth that there was then no intercession of the deade . For , who of all the Sainctes should haue takne thought for the people , if Moses didde not ? Who in this thyng dyd exceede , and passe all men , whiles he dyd lyue . Therefore , thus I say , I myght make myne argument agaynst you , and your gentylmen : In the extreeme necessitie of the people , Moses made no intercession for theim : it is moste lykely then that none at all dyd make intercession for theim , The 〈◊〉 m●●●t of the papists 〈…〉 and beaten 〈◊〉 on ●●eir heades . sithe that Moses dyd passe al men , in humanitie , gentilnesse and mercy . The meanyng of the prophete , then , was this : that God was so offended with the people , that he wold in no wise spare them though Moyses and Samuell , whose prayers he was wonte to heare aboue all other , should make intercession for them . The like in a maner haue we in the prophete Ezechiell , Ez●●4 where the lorde speaketh on this maner : If Noah , Daniel , and Iob were in the citie , as truly as I lyue , they shall delyuer neyther sonnes ne daughters , but saue theyr owne soules in their rightousnesse . As if he should say : Thoughe Noah , Daniell , and Iob , were then alyue again , and made intercession for the people , they shoulde not delyuer theyr owne sonnes and daughters , but should saue onely theyr onwe lyues , in they : righteousnesse , my wrathe , and indignation , is so kyndeled agaynst that stiffe-necked people . And so the afore alledged place of Hieremye oughte to bee vnderstanded . For the woordes are as muche , as if he shoulde say : Though Moyses and Samuell wer nowe aliue and stoode before me , makynge intercession for this people , as they were wonte to dooe , yet woulde I not for theyr sake , withdrawe my plagues frome this wycked and frowarde generation , I woulde not heare theym , nor geue eares vnto theyr prayers , but woulde in my furye destroye this rebellious and styffenecked people .

Reade and marke diligentely the circumstaunces of bothe places , and ye shall fynde , that this is the true sense and meanyng of theim .

ALBION .

Obiect . 18 Psal 3● . Nowe wille I come to the holye Psalmist . These are Dauids woordes , I am sure : I sayde , I wylle confesse my synne vnto the LORDE , and so thou forgauest the wyckednesse of my synne . Pro hac orabit ad te omnis sanctus , in tempore oportuno . For this shall euerye Saincte make his prayer vnto thee , in a tyme , whenne thou mayst bee founde . Agayne , Psal. 150. doothe not he wryte thus : Laudate Dominum in sanctis eius , Praise god in his saints ?

Philalethes .

Answer . And I say that by bringing in these testimonies or autorities of the psalmes , they doo most manifestly beewraye their impudent and shamelesse ignorance . How the place aleaged out o the 〈◊〉 p●a● ought ●o be taken For , when Dauid had reasoned of the remission of synnes , and had appointed him self an example vnto other , and had said : I haue confessed my sinne vnto the lorde , and thou hast forgeuen the wickednesse of my synne : he did adde by and by : Many holy and godly men , shal be prouoked by this example of mine to call after the same sort vpon god for the pardonne and forgeuenesse of theyr synnes , in a tyme when thou mayest bee founde . Cypr an contra d●metrianum . For Cyprian writing against Demetrianus , did saye very godlye : Quando isthinc excessum fuerit , nullus iam locus poenitentiae est , nullus satisfactionis effectus . Hic vita aut amittitur aut tenetur . Hic saluti aetern● cultu dei , & fructu fidei prouidetur .

That is to say : After that we be departed hence , there is no place of repentaunce , no effecte of satisfaction . Here the lyfe is eyther losse , or holden : here by the worshipping of god , & the fruite of faith , euerlastyng saluation is prouided for . Wherby we doo learne , that as long as we be in this life , wee maye throughe faithe in oure Sauiour Iesu Christ , praye vnto God for the remission of oure synnes , and that so longe , God may be found , but after that wee be ones gone , neither repentaunce nor yet praying vnto God for the remission of our sinnes can profite vs nothyng .

Didymus

Obiect . 19 But here he speaketh of the Saintes , that being in heauen , do pray vnto God for vs , that of his goodnesse he wylle forgeue vs our synnes , as he did vnto Dauid . I am sure , ye will not call them , that are yet aliue , and be subiect to all kinde of infirmities , Saints . For that pertaineth only to those blessed spirites and soules that be alredy in glorie , with their head our sauior Iesu Christe .

Philalethes .

And in this do also the champions of the Romishe churche declare theyr wylfull blyndenesse . Answer . For , in howe many places of the scriptures are the faithfull lyuyng yet here on the earth called Saintes : The faithfull lyuing here on the earth are Rom 1. Act 9. Paul doth write to the sainctes that were at Rome . These be also Ananias woordes in the Actes of Apostels : Lorde , I haue heard by many of this man , how muche euill he hath done to thy Saints at Hierusalem , and here he hath power of the high priestes to bynde all those , that cal vpon thy name . The tyme would not suffise to reherse all places of the Scriptures , where the faithfull , lyuing yet here in the earth be called Saints . But ye shal heare what Saint Augustine sayth concerning this matter . Augu. ii . Psal. 86. He writing vppon the psalmes , doth aleadge these wordes of the Apostell : And some of you were such , but ye ar washed , but ye are sanctified . Si ergo eos sanctificatos dicit , dicat vnusquisque fidelium , Sanctus sum . Non est ista superbia elati , sed confessio non ingrati . Si enim dixeris te sanctum esse ex te , superbus ex . Rursus fidelis in Christo , & membrum Christi , si te non dixeris , esse sanctum ingratus es . That is , yf he calleth them sacntified , lette euery one of the faythfull saye : I am a Sayncte . Thys is not the pryde of hym , that is pufte vppe , but the confession of him , that is not ingrate or vnthankefull .

For , yf thou sayest , that thou arte a Sayncte of thy selfe , thou arte a proude manne . Agayne , beynge faythfull in CHRISTE , The pope will scarcely alowe ●his doctrine for he is wonte to canonize his sainctes an hundred yeres after they bee dead . and a member of Chryste , yf thou sayest , that thou arte not a Sayncte , thou arte ingrate and vnthankefull . Saye vnto thy God : I am a Saincte , because thou haste sanctified me , because I haue receaued it , not because I hadde it : because thou hast geuen it , not because I haue deserued it . For , on the other side thou beginnest to doo iniurie vnto thy Lorde IESV CHRIST . For , yf al Christians and faythful , and all they that bee baptized in hym , haue putte hym on , or are apparailed with him as the Apostell dothe saye : As manye as are baptized in CHRISTE , are apparayled with CHRISTE . Yf they bee made members of his bodye , and saye , that they are not sainctes , they dooe iniurie vnto the heade hym selfe , whose membres are not hollye . Nowe see , where thou arte , and take dignitye of thy heade . Lette therfore , euerye Christiane saye : yea let the whole bodye of Christe crye oute , whensoeuer it suffereth afflictions , dyuers tentations , and innumerable sclaunders : Preserue my soule , for I am a saynt . Those wordes of saint Augustine are so plaine , that they nede no exposition at al.

Eutrapelus .

Som there be which to shewe a difference betwixt the Sainctes , that are alredy in glorie , with their head our sauior Iesu Christ , and the Saintes that be yet alyue here on the earth , doo in the Latine tongue call the one Diuos , ( these are they that be alredy in heauen ) and the other Sanctos , which ar they , that be yet compassed aboute with the bodye of synne .

Albion .

Well , be it so as ye saye . But wherfore dothe the Psalmist write on this maner : Laudate dominum in sanctis eius , that is to saye , Praise God in his Sainctes ? The be●st li●●s of the papists in aleaging the scriptures .

Philalethes .

Who wold not laughe at the beastlynesse of these blynde bussardes ? for if they will haue this sayeng : Prayse the Lorde in his saynctes to bee lyke vnto this : Call vpon the sa●nctes of the Lorde : then by as good reason we may say : That the trumpette , the viole , and the harpe . &c. oughte to bee called vppon . For , it foloweth immediately after : Prayse hym in the sounde of the trumpette , in the violle , and in the harpe . But the Catholike veritie and truth , dothe bothe reade and vnderstande the wordes of the prophete after this sorte . Prayse the Lorde in his sanctuarie , or in his hoynesse , that is : Prayse hym that dwelleth in heauen . Psal. 134. For in an other place he sayth : Lifte vp youre handes vnto the sanctuary , and praise the lord . Whyche is as muche as yf he shoulde haue sayde : Lyfte vp your handes vnto heauen , and prayse the Lorde , and geue hym thankes for his benefittes .

Whervnto the addeth with what instruments they wer wont to stirre vp the hertes of the people to sing prayses , & to be thankefull vnto the Lorde . But nowe vnder Christ , suche ceremonies of the olde lawe are cleane abolyshed . Ob e. 20 a●● . 3 ,

Didy .

I remembre that ones this place of Baruch was alleadged for the mayntenaunce of the inuocation of the Saintes : O Lorde god almyghtie , the God of Israell , heare nowe the prayers of the dead Israelites , and of their children which haue sinned before the , and haue not hearkened vnto the voyce of thee , their God , therfore these plagues hang vpon vs .

Albion .

If ye had not preuented me , Answer . I wolde haue alleged the same place . For , it seemeth vnto me , to make muche for the purpose . Of what maner dead Baruch doth speak

Philalethes .

Ye muste marke brother Albion , that Baruch in his prayer , speketh not of them that were dead with the bodyly deathe , but of the wicked , whiche lyuyng vnto the worlde were deade vnto God , whiche figuratiue maner of speakynge , is oftentimes vsed in the scriptures . For , in the gospell our sauiour Iesus Christ doothe saie : Math. 8. Suffer the dead to burye their dead . As if he shoulde saye : Lette the worldlings that be dead to God and good woorkes burye theim that bee departed oute of this lyfe , ( for that is an office moste mete for them ) but doo the thinges that be for the lyuing . The like phrase or maner of speaking dooth the holy apostle vse , 1. Tim. 5. when he sayth : A wydowe lyuyng in delitiousnesse , though she be alyue , yet she is deade : It is also oftentimes sene , that in the thirde person we be wont to speake of our selues . Baruch besydes , by such kynde of wordes doothe sette foorthe the myserable estate of the childerne of Israell , whiche were euen as deade menne here in the worlde , because of their captiuitie and thraldome and straicte bondage or slauerie that they were in , whych was vnto theym as a graue or pytte that the dead bee buried in . Weyghe and consyder well the circumstances of the place , and ye shall fynde it to bee so .

Didymus .

Obiec . 11 2. Mach. 15 And what wyll ye say to this place of the seconde booke of the Machabees : where we reade that Iudas Machabeus dyd see in a dreame Onias the prieste and Hieremie the prophete praying for the people , whereof he was so sure , that he tolde his dreame to the people to encourage theim withall , against the terroure of theyr ennemyes .

PHILALETHES .

Answer . This place hath neyther commaundemente , nor yet sufficient exaumple , but is onely a vysyon or dreame , whereby it was represented , that the people of the Iewes shoulde not bee forsaken of God . For yf so bee that it had sette foorth the Intercession of Saynctes , Iudas Machabeus woulde haue commended hymselfe vnto the praier of Onias and Hieremie . whiche thyng he dothe note but in his greate danger and perill , he fleeth vnto the true liuyng God onely , saying : O Lorde , thou that didst send thyne aungell in the tyme of Ezechias kyng of Iuda , who in the host of Sennacherib slewe an hundreth fourescore and fiue thousand . Send new also thy good angell before vs , O Lord of heauens , The praier of Iudas Machabaeus . for a feare and dread vnto them . And let them be discomfited by the strength of thyne arme , whiche come againste thyne holy people to blaspheme . Howebeit no man coulde iustly blame me , if I shold vtterly reiecte the place that is alleadged out of Baruch , and oute of the seconde booke of the Machabees , sithe that they be no Canonicall bokes but playne Apocryphes , as in our talke of purgatorie it hath been sufficientely proued , Reade the 3 dialogue of my huntyng of purgatorie vnto death . and specially in the beginning of the thirde communication , so that I shall haue no nede to repete the thyng any more , sithe that all our talke touching that matter is set foorth in print .

Eutrapelus .

Me thynke it were a fonde thyng , to grounde any doctrine vpon a dreame , It is no wisd●m to ●round any doctrin ●pon a dreame . & specially vpon such a dreame as the like is not ones mencioned of , in all the whole bodye of the Canonicall scriptures . Iudas Machabeus did think also in this his dreame , that Hieremye dyd delyuer vnto him a golden sworde , wherwith he should wound the aduersaries . As he thenne receaued a golden swoord of Hieremie , so did Onias and Hieremie pray for the people : but he receaued onely the sworde in a dreame : it foloweth then that the prayers of these holy men were also dreamish .

Philalet .

Adde therto these wordes of saint Augustine , Augu cont a gauden●● 〈…〉 li. 2. cap 1● . Non debemus quicquid in sc●ipturis etiam dei testimonio laudatos homines fecisse legimus , consentiendo approbare , sed consyderando discernere , adhibentes iuditium non sanc nostrae authoritatis , sed scripturarum diuinarum , That is to say we ought not to approue by consentyng , what●oeuer we reade to haue bene done by men , though they be praised by the testimonie of the scriptures , but with consyderyng to discern it , bryngynge the iudgemente not of oure owne authoritie , but of the holy scriptures . By these wordes we do learn that we are not bound to folow , whatsoeuer we fynd in the Scriptures to haue ben don by the men of God , but fyrst we must try by the word of God , whether it be well doon or not .

Albion .

Obie 22 Yet father Origen dooth alleadge this place , for to proue the Inuocation of Sainctes by . These are his woordes , whyche ye shall fynd written in one of his fower homilies , which are founde by & by after the commentaries of Hierome , whych he hath writen vpon Ecclesiastes : Sed & omnes sancti , Origenes super cant●ca de precibus sanctorum in coelo . qui de hac vita decesserunt , habentes adhuc charitatem erga eos , qui in hoc mundo sunt , si dicant●r curam gerere salutis eorum , & iuuare eos precibus sanis atque interuentu suo apud Deum . Non erit inconueniens . Scriptum nanque est in Machabeorum libris ita : Hic est Hieremias , propheta Dei , qui semper orat pro populo . That is to saye : But it shall not bee inconueniente , yf it bee sayd , that all the Saintes , whyche bee departed out of thys lyfe , hauynge yet a loue and charitie towardes them that be in the worlde , bee carefulle ouer theyr saluation , and healpe theym with theyr prayers , and intercession vnto God . For in the booke of the Machabees it is thus writen . This is Hieremie the Prophete of GOD , that prayeth alwayes for the people . These woordes seeme vnto me very playne .

Philalethes

Answer . It is a wonder and meruaile that this old ancient father , should go about to confirm and establish the intercession and prayeng of the Saynctes for vs in heauen , which is a doctrine no where set foorth vnto vs in all the Canonicall Scriptures , by the testimonie and authoritie of an Apocryphicall booke . For Origene hymselfe , if that bee trewe , that Eusebius writeth of hym , doothe numbre no more than .xxii. canonicall bookes , secludyng the bokes of the Machabees . Moreouer Hierome in his preface vnto Damasus , which he did set before the .ii. treatises or homelies of Origene vpon the Canticles , doth testifie that Origene did write these .ii. treatises vpon the canticles , whiche Hierome hy●selfe dydde turne or translate into latin , and .x. bokes , which he sayth he dyd not translate because it was a woorke that required muche leysure , tyme , labour , and coste . Nowe those , that wee haue at this present vnder the name and title of Origene , are not called bookes but homelies , where as in the meane whyle he wrote none but those .ii. which Hierom did translate . But put the case , that they be Origenes , shall we set more by the authoritie of man , than by the authoritie of the Canonical scriptures ? Lu. 7. Math. 15. Obie . 2● ,

Albion

It is written in Luke , that the Centurion dyd sende the elders of the people vnto Christ , beseching him that he wold come and heale his seruant ? And why ? because that he thoughte not hymselfe worthy to come vnto hym . Dyd not the the Apostles lykewyse make earneste sute vnto Christ , for the woman of Chanance ? why shoulde wee not likewyse thynking our selues vnworthie by reason our synnes , to come vnto God , praye vnto the dead Saintes that be already in heauen with their head , our sauior Iesu Christe , to make intercession for vs ?

Philalethes .

Answer . whiles we liue in this world we are bound to praye one for another We haue alreadye declared , that whiles we yet liue in this worlde , we may pray one for an other : yea , we are bound by goddes worde so for to doo . But that we shoulde doo the lyke , after we be ones deceassed or departed out of this lyfe , and haue fulfiled our course : we haue not one onelye iote in al the whole body of the scriptures that testifieth any suche thyng vnto vs ,

Albion .

Obie . 14 Reuel . 5 Ye shall not nede to make any repetition of that , which hath ben saide alreadie . For I doo wel beare in mynd the whole matter . Therfore I wil com to the Apocalipse or reuelation of Iohn There , wee haue these woordes : And when he had taken the boke , the fower beastes , and the foure and twentie elders , fell downe before the lambe , hauyng euery one harpes , and golden viols full of odours , which are the prayers of the Sainctes . And in an other place of the same booke he saieth . Reue 8. And an other angell came and stoode before the aultar , hauyng a golden censer , and many odoures were geuen vnto hym , that he should offer of the praiers of the Saintes vpon the golden aultar , which is before the throne . These places doo seeme vnto me to proue manifestly the inuocation of the dead Saintes .

Phila.

Answer . Two ●yndes of praiers . Ye must vnderstande , that there be .ii. kyndes of prayers , the one is inuocation or petition , and the other is , geuyng of thankes , laude and prayse . This petition yf nede were might be proued by the iiii . chapiter of the epistle to the Philippians we cal that inuocation , when we desyre some good thing to be geuen vnto vs , or some euyll to bee taken awaye from vs . Geuyng of thankes doth contayne the praising and lauding or magnifieng of the name of god for his exceading great benefyts , which we receaue dayly and hourely at his handes . It is manifeste by that whiche doth immediatly folow , that the Apostle doth speake of this laste , and not of the first . These be the wordes . And they sounge a newe song , Reuela 5. saieng : Thou act worthy to take the boke , and to open the seales therof because thou wast killed , & haste redemed vs to God , by thy bloude oute of euerye kynred , and tongue , and people , and nation , and haste made vs vnto our God kinges and prestes , & we shal raigne on the erth . Therfore , what doth thys make for the intercession of the blessed spirites or soules , that the saints do sing praises vnto god in heauen ? In the other place , none other thing is ment , Reuela . 8 but that the aungell did ioygne his laudes and praises whiche he gaue vnto God with the himnes and songes of the elders . Saint Augustine , August . expoundyng this place writeth thus : Alius angelus , ipse est Iesus Christus habens thuribulum aureum , quod est corpus sanctum . Ipse enim dominus , factus est thuribulum , ex quo deus odorem suanitatis accepit & propitius factus est mundo , quia obtulit seipsum modorem suauitatis . Et accepit angelus thuribulum & impleuit illud ex igne altatis . Accepit Iesus corpus , id est ecclesiam , & perficiendo patris voluntatem , illam igne spiritus impleuit sancti , That is to saye : The other angell is Iesus Chryst , hauyng a golden censer , whyche is an holy body . For the LORD hym selfe was made a censer , oute of the whyche ( GOD receaued a swete odour , and was made mercifull vnto the worlde : For , he offered hym self a sacrifice of swete smell . And the aungell didde take the censer , and dydde fyll it wyth the fyre of the aultare . IESVS tooke a bodye , that is to saye the churche , and dydde fyll it , wyth the fyre of the holye Ghoste .

DYDIMVS .

Obie . 25 R●ff● l●● Eccle. historiae . I perceaue brother Albion , that ye muste seeke for helpe som other where , than in the scriptures of the old and newe testament , sith that youre inuocation of the deade Saintes is already driuen out of the Apocalypse or reuelation of Iohn .

Albi.

I haue yet somme what in store . These wordes we do reade of Theodosius the emperor , in the eleuenth boke of the ecclesiasticall hystorie , whiche one Ruffinus dyd write : Ciren nibat cum sacerdotibus & pop●lo omnia orationum loca , ante martyrum & apostolorum thecis ●acebat cilitio prostratus , & auxilia sibi , fida sanctorum intercessione poscebat , That is , he did with the priestes & the people goe aboute all the places of prayers , and dyd lye prostrate in suckeclothe before the shrines of the martirs and Apostles , and did require helpe for hymselfe , by the faithful intercession of the Saintes . What will ye say now to this ? No man can deny , but that this is a moste auncient hystorie . Answer . Antiqu●●●● without trueth proueth nothing .

Eutrapelus .

I haue many tymes hearde oure brother Philalethes saye , that antiquitie without a truthe , or without a good foundation or grounde in gods booke , proueth nothyng . Againe , when certaine arguments of Hierom wer discussed , it was by sufficiente testimonies and authoritie of the scriptures proued , that the examples of such kynges and bishoppes , which are brought foorth without any authoritie of the scriptures , doo in such weightie matters proue nothynge . Ye do not reade in al the boke of God , that any of the godly and faithfull kynges dyd euer lie prostrate before the shrines of the righteous , and did craue for help by the faithfull intercession of the dead . For , they did all crye out , My helpe is from the Lorde , whiche made both heauen and the earth . The Lorde shal preserue thee from all euyll , the Lord shall kepe thy soule . The Lorde shall keepe thy goyng out , and thy goyng in , frome hensefoorth worlde without ende . The exposition of Ruffinus wor●●● .

Philalethes .

Besydes Ruffinus wordes doo appeare to be suche , that they ought rather to be vnderstanded of the intercession of the saints that were in the earth For , it seemeth that the prince went about all the oratories or prayeng places where the congregation of the sainctes was assembled , and that he dyd desyre the faithfull to praye most earnestly vnto god , that he would vouchsafe to geue him the victorye , and to preserue his empire to the commodity profite and vtilitie of many men . The like in a manner haue we in the said Ruffinus . li. 10. ca. 8 where wee haue these woordes : In the meane while Constantinus trusting in godlines , did euen in their own contrey subdue the Sarmatians the Gothes , & other Barbarous contreys and nations , those excepted , which eyther by frendeship , or by yelding of them selues did preuente peace . And the more deuoutely and humbly he did submitte hym selfe vnto god , the more God did subdue all things vnder hym . He dyd also send letters to Antonie the first inhabitaunt of the wildernesse , as vnto one of the prophetes , desiring him that he woulde praye vnto the lorde for him and for his children . So he did not onely study to be made commendable vnto god by his own merites and by the deuotion of his mother , but also by the intercession of the Saints . Mark how he did here take the intercession of the saintes : neither doo I see any cause why wee maye not expounde that place touching Theodosius , What the vision of Theodosius doth signify of the intercession of the saints that were aliue here on the erth . And where as they say that the Apostles Iohn and Phillip did appeare vnto Theodosius the emperour , what shall they gather by it : But that he was by such a vision certified of the victorye , as Iudas Machabaeus was before by the appearing of Onias and Hieremy . And therfore as Iudas Machabaeus dyd not call vppon Onias and Hieremie , when he should ioygne in battail with his enemies , but vpon the mighty Lorde of hostes : In like maner Theodosius , whan he sawe his souldiours turne their backes , he prayed not vnto the Apostelles , but vnto god , sayeng : O almighty god , The prayer of Theodosius . thou knowest , that for to reuenge the iuste quarell of thy sonne Iesu Christ I haue taken in hande these warres , yf it be otherwise , poure thy vengeaunce vpon me . But if trusting in thee , and vppon a iust cause I am come hether , retch forth thy right hand vnto thyne , lest the gentils do say : where is now their god ? Whereunto the same doth well agree , whiche Saincte Augustine in hys fyfte booke of the city of god and .26 . chapiter doothe write of this moste holy prince , how that he did put his whole confidence and trust in God as in his moste strong shield and bucklar , and strong bulwark agaynst his ennemies .

Didymus .

Obie 26 The commune people is wont to saye stil that it was a mery world , when the holy virgin Mary and all the blessed sainctes in heauen were prayed vnto , and woorshipped , whervppon they doo gather , God was well pleased withall , els God would not haue sent vnto them such felicitie . But nowe sens pylgremages & prayeng vnto sainctes was put downe , the worlde hath ben in all kynde of myserie .

Philalethes .

Answer . Hiere . 44 The lyke were they wont to lay to Hieremies charge , vsing these stoute wordes agaynst hym : The woorde that thou haste spoken to vs in the name of the Lorde , we wil not here it of thee : but we will doo whatsoeuer thyng goeth out of oure owne mouthe , as to burne incense vnto the queene of heauen , and to poure out drynke offringes vnto her , as we haue doone , bothe we and our fathers , our kinges and our princes in the cities of Iuda , and in the stretes of Hierusalem , for , then had we plentie of vitailes , and were well , and selfe none yll : but sens we leste of , to burne incense to the queene of heauen , and to poure out drinke offerynges vnto her , we haue hadde scarcenesse of all thynges , and haue ben consumed by the sworde and famyne . Do not I pray you the worshippers of dead Saintes make the lyke complaintes , praisyng the felicitie of the olde world ( as they do terme it ) when al kynd of idolatrie did reigne ? The common complaint of idolaters . But this is the commune complaint of idolaters . For both Demetrianus and the commune sorte of the heathen , dyd lay to the christians charge , that it was long of them that suche cruell warres did arise emong them , that theyr catell dyed of the moreyn , that they were plagued with pestilence and famyne , and that they had vnseasonable weathers , yea that all maner of plages that the world was plagued withall , oughte to be impuded vnto them . Cypr cont●● demetrianum . But Cyprian doothe so answere to al these vaine obiections , that his aunswere maye serue vs for to stoppe the mouthes of the vayne Papistes , whiche nowe doo make so greate a brag of the felicitie of theyr idolatrous tyme . But leauing mens auctorities , I wil shew , how the lord him self doth answere or rather handel this obiection of the aduersaries in his prophete Osee . For , Osee . 1. he sayth , your mother hath played the harlot : for she said : I wil go after my louers , that geue me my bread , and my water , my wol , and my star , myne oyle , and my drinke . And she did not knowe , that I gaue her corn , and wyne and oile and multiplied her siluer and gold , whiche thei bestowed vpon Baal . Therfore , wyl I return , and take away my corne in the tyme therof , & my wyne in the sea son therof , and wil recouer my wol , and my flaxe lent , to couer her shame wyth all , and I wyll cause all her myrthe to ceasse : And I wyll also destroye her vynes , God will not haue vs to attribute our felicit● vnto creatures 1. Tim 6. and her fygge trees , wherof she saied , these are my rewardes , that my louers haue geuen me . Hereby dooe wee learne how much God is dyspleased , yf we do attribute vnto false gods or vnto creatures , the felicitye , welth , and prosperitie of the worlde : For as god alone doth geue vs all things aboundantly to enioy them , so wil he be acknowleged to be the onely geuer of good thinges . He calleth the same fornication , which they do cal deuotion . God hath ioygned our soules vnto him with the bond of matrimonye , to the ende that we shoulde depend of him only , as the spouse or wife ought to depende of hir husbande . Therfore , ●pirituall fornication . we do committe fornication , when wee do attribute the giftes , which haue bene geuen vs of our husband , vnto I cannot tell what louers , I meane , vnto Idoles or dead creatures . It is god , that geueth vnto vs all thinges necessary , meate , drinke and clothe , and moderate pleasures , not that we should bestowe them vpon Idoles , but that we should enioye and haue the fruition of them , & so geue thankes vnto the lord and geuer of them . But the idolaters say these are my rewardes , which my louers do geue vnto me . The idola●ers of our tyme . The idolaters of our time , say , these benefites haue we receiued of the liberalitie of god , but through the merites of the saints . Yea , many forgetting the lord al together do attribute al their felicity vnto the dead saints Vnto both the lord doth say , I will returne and take awaye my corn &c. He doth threaten them with the barennesse of the grounde & wyth famyne , it is so farre of , that they shoulde proue any thing by their obiection . Therfore we oughte rather to beleue the prophet speaking of the true felicitie on this maner . Blessed is the man that feareth the lorde , he shal haue great pleasure in his commaundementes , welth and richesse shal bee in his house , and his righteousnes remaineth for euer . The eyes of all thinges do looke vp , and truste in thee , thou geuest theim meate in due season , thou doest open thy hand and fillest with thy blessing euerye liuing thynge . The lord is nerre vnto them that call vppon him , that cal vpon him in truth . He shal do the will of them that feare him , and he shall heare their crye and saue them : The lorde doth preserue them that loue hym , The fountaines of true felici●ye . and shall destroye all the vngodly . These are the fountaynes of true felicitye , of the which if any man doth drinke he will attribute all his whole felicitye vnto god and not vnto creatures .

Albi.

Nowe , I haue hetherto ben sufficiently instructed that the dead Sayntes ought not to be praied vnto and that we ought not to vse them as mediatours , but that we oughte to contente our selues wyth the mediation of Christe , who by the worde of god , is appointed to be the onlye mediatour betwixt god and menne . Whether th● dead ●mi●●ught to be wor hip●ed . But will ye say that they oughte not to be worshipped . My gentill men , haue tolde me , that they ought in any wise to be worshipped . Els great iniury should be done vnto the frendes of god .

Philalethes .

This is the greatest honour , that we can geue vnto the true and faithfull seruauntes of god , if we do geue all honour , prayse and laud vnto him , whom they didde faithfully preach , whose doctrine they did ernestly publish , and seal with theyr bloud . We maye well , as other holy and godly men haue don afore vs , assigne and alow three kinds or sortes of honoring of the Saintes . Three sortes of honoring of the sainctes . The first , is geuing of thankes . For , we ought to geue god thankes , that he dyd vouchesafe to shewe exaumples of his mercye , and that he dyd signify by them that he will saue menne , and that therfore he didde geue sundrye gyftes vnto hys churche , and specially teachers . Math. 25. These exceadynge greate giftes oughte to bee amplified , and the holye menne of God also to bee praysed , that they dydde vse faithfully the gyftes of God , as we see that our sauior Iesus Christe did praise those , that had faithfully employed and bestowed the talentes that were lente them . Their doctrine whereby they did commende vnto vs the woorshyppyng and inuocation of one God only , ought to be vrged and with diligente earnestnesse to be sette foorth . We ought with all thankfulnesse to iudge well of suche woorthy vessels of God , to commende them , and to defende their good name and estimation against the vngodlye . The seconde is the instruction of oure fayth , ii . as when we see that the deniall of Peter was forgeuen hym , and the adultery and murther that Dauid committed , was also pardonned hym , and the blasphemy , persecutions , and slaughter of the saintes was not imputed vnto Paule , and the couetousnesse , fraudes and vsurie of Mathew put oute of remembrance : we are wonderfully erected and confirmed , and do more & more beleue that the grace of God dooth far passe all synnes . iii. Therof dothe sprynge the thyrde kynde of honouryng , which is the imitation or folowynge of the Sainctes , fyrst of their faith , and afterwardes of all their other vertues , whiche euery man oughte , according to hys vocation and calling , for to folowe .

Eutrapelus .

Ye putte me nowe in remembraunce of a thing , which I haue redde in a booke of Erasmus whiche is called Enchiridion . Enchiridiō●rasmi . Thou doest ( sayeth he ) honoure the Saintes , thou arte gladde to touche their relikes : but thou doest contemne the best thing , that they haue left that is , the example of pure and cleane lyfe . The preposterous honouring of the dead . There is no worshipping more acceptable vnto Marye , than if thou doest folowe her humilitye and lowlinesse . There is no religion more propre and acceptable vnto the saints , than if thou doest labour to expresse their vertue . Wilt thou please both Poter & Paule ? follow the faithe of the one and the charity of the other , The true honouring of the Saintes . and thou shalt do more thenne if thou shouldest runne tenne times to Rome .

PHILALETH .

We haue manyfeste textes of the scriptures wherby we are able to proue the no godly honor ought to be geuen vnto the saints Act. 10. For Cornelius fallyng at Peters fete , wold haue honored hym , not as a God , but as he had learned of the angell as a minister of God . But Peter dyd take hym vp , and saied : Arise , for I my selfe am a man . And that which Peter didde rebuke in Cornelius , the same dyd the angel afterwardes reproue in Iohn the Euangelist . Apo. 22. This great Apostle beyng alreadye well stryken in yeares knewe right well that no godly honor ought to be geuen vnto creatures , but vnto god onely , yet wold he haue worshipped the angell , for the excellencie of his ministerie , but he was put backe of the angel . Farthermore when they of Lystra did bring foorth crounes and sacrifices , Act. 14. that is , externe and visible gifts or presentes , which they were appointed , to haue offred vnto Paul and Barnabas . As soone as the apostles Barnabas and Paule sawe it , they rent their cloathes as at a manifest blasphemy , and ranne among the people , cryeng , and saying : O menne , The wordes of the Apostle to the people of Lystra . why doo ye these thynges ? Wee are euen menne , subiecte to the lyke passions that ye be . &c. If they did this , whenne they were yet compassed aboute with the synnefull bodye of the fleshe : is it to bee thought that beynge nowe in heauen , where they haue fruition of Goddes glorye , they woulde haue suche godly honoure to be geuen vnto them ? When they were yet aliue and subiecte to all manner of infirmities that wee bee subiecte vnto , they coulde in no wyse abyde , that GOD shoulde bee robbed of his glorye : And nowe that they bee delyuered from all maner of infirmities , and are alreadye in glorye with theyr heade our sauiour Iesu Christe , would they commytte suche trayterouse sacriledge ? These thinges beeyng welle consydered , it shall be easye to see , that all whiche they dooe prattle of theyr Lattia , Dulia , The m●les which 〈…〉 ●efore ●h● eyes of the ●m●le and ignorant . and Hyperdulia , are nothyng els but stinkyng mystes . In the whyche the wayfaring menne are seduced and deceaued , and falle into the handes of murtherers and robbers , whyche as they dooe sacrilegeously robbe GOD of his glorye , so they doo with theyr poysoned doctrine of this idolatrous woorshyppynge of the Saynctes , murther the soules of all theym that beeyng blynded wyth theyr misty sophistications , do fall in to theyr handes .

Albion .

Obie 27. & 28. Iohn 12 Math. 25. What will ye then saye to these argumentes : whome God doth honour , them ought men for to honor ; but god doth honor the Saintes , therfore , the saintes oughte to be honored of men . Again : what soeuer ( sayeth Christe ) ye do to one of these littell ones , ye do it vnto me , what honour soeuer then we do geue vnto the Saintes , God will impute it to be done vnto him .

Philalethes .

Answer . I cannot but meruayle at the grosse blindnesse of them . For in the same place that they do aleadge out of Iohn , this worde to honour . is taken for to geue eternall life and immortalitye . How god doth 〈◊〉 his sain●●s . Therfore , if ye shoulde thus make vp your argument : Whome god dothe honoure , them ought men also to honor But god honoureth his saintes , that is , he doth croune them with immortal glorye and lyfe euerlastynge . Ergo , the saintes must bee honoured of men , that is , they muste receaue of menne immortalitye , eternall glorye and euerlastyng lyfe : Who woulde not deryde and laughe to skorne thys manner of reasonynge ? Againe : yf by this woorde , to honoure , they wyll vnderstande , The absurditie of the papistes argumentes . to bough the knee , and to make supplication , they shall make a verye foolysshe and fonde argumente : excepte they shewe fyrste , that GOD dydde boughe his knee , and dydde make supplication vnto the Sayntes . But yf by the honoure they dooe vnderstande , the prayse of their vertues , and the imitation or folowynge of theyr godlye lyfe , and syncere faythe , the matter goeth well : In the meane whyle , GOD honourethe the Sainctes after hys manner and fashion , geuynge theym eternall glorye , and euerlastyng lyfe , and we honoure them after oures , by praising the giftes of God in theym , and by folowing their vertues , and stedfast fayth . After the same maner do they deprauate the wordes of oure Sauioure Iesu Chryste , where he sayeth : Math. 25. What soeuer ye doo to one of these litell ones ye do it vnto me . For , there our sauiour doth speake of the beneficence & liberality , & of the offices & dueties of life , that the saints do exercise one toward an other , whiles they bee yet in this present life , and these corrupters of the scriptures , doo wraste it , for to make it to serue for their idolatrous woorshyppyng of the dead Saintes . Well ●a●d● Dydi●●● .

Didymus .

Me thinketh , that it is against al reason , that the blessed virgine Mary the mother of our sauior Iesu Christ , shold not be worshipped , sithe that she is the quene of heauen

Eutrape .

Belyke , neyghbor Didymus , The●●●● of the 〈◊〉 of ●●da . ye will bryng in again , the old error of the idolatrous women of Iuda , which worshipped the moone , and makyng of the good creature of God , an ydole , dyd call it the quene of heauen : After the same maner as Epiphanius dothe testifie , 〈…〉 . certain women in Arabia dyd worshyp the virgin Mary , makyng vnto her fine cakes , and callyng her the quene of heauen : which thyng as that same most ancient writer doeth declare was done by the subtile and crafty procurement of Sathan the deuill , that so the idolatrie that was committed about the moone , myght bee translated & turned vpon that moste holy vessell of god the mother of our sauior Iesus Christ , and that so for the hatrede that he bare vnto Christ , and vnto his membres , he might dishonour her , and make her an abhominable ydole , and a stumblynge blocke vnto all christendome , where as God hath appointed her for to be vnto vs ( next vnto her sonne Iesu Christ ) a most perfecte example of all godlynesse and v●rtue , and of a most pure and sincere faithe in his promises touchyng his Messias and anointed , that shold for the saluation of the worlde , be borne of her . This am I sure of , that no where in all the scriptures , The virgin Mary is no where in al the scriptures called the queene of heauen . the virgine Marie is called the queene of heauen . Therfore , I do meruail at the vngodly fondnesse of them that will haue her to be so called , making moste sacrilegeous and blasphemous hymnes vnto her , whiche they doo violently intrude or thrust into the chirche with fyer and swerd .

Philalethes .

If ye will not contente youre selfe with that , which hath ben sayd already , ye shall heare Epiphanius very wordes : In his thirde boke ●ontra Antidicomarianitas , & cultores virginis Mariae , writeth on this maner : He ( speakyng of Christ ) as beyng the potter him selfe , and hauynge the power of the thyng , did forme and fashion hymselfe of the virgine Mary , as of the earthe who came downe from heauen , and beyng both God and the worde , did putte on fleshe of the vyrgin Marye , but not that the virgin should be worshipped , or that he woulde make her a God , or that we should offer in her name . For , he neither didde suffer her to geue or minister baptisme , nor to blesse the Apostels , neyther did he commaund her to beare rule in the earth , but wil haue vs to knowe , that he alone is the sanctification , and that shee is made worthye of the kyngedome of heauen . whence dothe this rolling serpence or dragon come vnto vs ? Whence are these lewde , and wycked counsailes renewed ? Let mary be in honour , let the Father , the sonne , and the holy ghost be worshipped . let no manne worshippe Marye . And by and by after : Let no man eate of the errour whych is for the holye Marye . Although it bee a goodly free , yet it is not for meate to be eaten of : Although , Mary he most beautifull , holye , and honourable , yet she is not appoyncted to be worshipped . Lette therfore the error of the deceaued cease . For , neyther is Marye a God , neyther hath she her bodye from heauen , but of the conception of manne and woman , howbeit , disposed according to the promise as the conception and byrth of Isaac was . And let no manne offer in her name . For , he that doth it , doth caste awaye his soule . Again : let no man rayle against her nor blasphem the holy virgin , god forfende . For , she was not coupled vnto man , neither after the byrthe , nor before the byrth of the Sauiour . And in the same booke , contra Colyridianos , Coly●●● 〈◊〉 the● 〈◊〉 offe●e 〈…〉 the 〈◊〉 Mar. ● Aug●●● ra●●●●●e 〈◊〉 ●mo . these are also his wordes : In dede the virgine was a virgin and honourable , but not geuen vnto vs for to be worshipped , but rather she dothe worship hym , that toke his substance of her , that is to say , of hir fleshe . Augustin in his booke De vera religione , Let not the worshippyng of dead men , bee a religion vnto vs : for , if they haue lyued godly , they be not so taken , as though they doo seke for such honors , but they will haue him to be worshypped of vs , by whose illumination they reioyce , that we shoulde be partakers of their merite : By their merite he doth vnderstand the croune of immortality , which thei do obtein through faith in the merites of Christ ) Therfore they must be honoured through imitation and folowynge , and not be worshipped throughe religion . Agayne in the same booke : we ought , sayeth he , to beleue , that the most bountefull aungels , and the most excellent ministers of god , will haue vs to worshippe one god with them , by whose contemplation they are blessed . Neither doo we buylde temples vnto theim : For , they will not so behonoured of vs , because that they knowe , that when we are godly , we are the temples of the most hye god . ● . Cor. 6. 2 Cori. 6. Therfore , it is wel and rightly written , that man was forbidden of the aungell to worship him but one god , vnder whom he was his felowe seruaunte . In the thyrde booke aga●nst the .ii. Epistels of the Pelagians vnto Bonifacius , he writeth also on this maner : All the saints that haue ben either from the olde Abell vnto Iohn Baptist , or from the Apostels vnto this time , and afterwards vnto th end of the worlde , are to bee praised in God and not in theym selues : For , this is the voyce of theym that were afore . My soule shal bee praysed in the Lorde . And this is the voyce of the latter : Thoroughe the grace of God I am that I am . And this is the voyce bothe of the fyrst and of the last : He that glorieth , Cyrillus . lette hym glorie in the Lorde . Cyrillus in his sixt boke contra lulianum , hathe plainely these wordes : we neither say , that the holy martyrs are gods , neither are we wont to worshyp them : but rather we doo honour theim with laudes and praises , because that they did stoutly fight for the truthe , that they myght kepe the sinceritie of faithe . Hereby do we learne , that in the primitiue church the honour that was geuen vnto martyrs , was to praise , commende , and set foorth their constancie and stedfastnes , their strong faithe and pacience in aduersitie and persequution , that so God who had for the profite of his chirche , endued them with suche excellent vertues might bee glorified , and the reste exhorted , folowyng their exaumple , to fyght manfully in the quarell of the truthe , and couragiously to shede their bloode for the sealynge vp of the same . Chrysost. Likewise Chrysostome in the xlv . homilie vpon Mathew , writing against them their that wold seme to honor the martirs with their substance , by makyng vnto theim gorgeous tumbes , & by buildyng vp in the honor of theim costely oratories or houses of prayers , dooth say these wordes : Neither doo the martirs reioyce , when they are honored , with the same money , for the whiche the poore dooe weepe . What is that vertue of righteousnesse , to rewarde the deade , and to spoyle the lyuyng ? The same authour doothe plainly teache in an other place , that the true honor of the Sainctes , is to folowe their faith and other heauenly vertues . But what nede we the authoritie of men , Math. 4. l. 11.4 . sythe that we haue so playne scriptures ? Thou shalte woorshyp the lorde thy God , and hym onely shalt thou serue , saith our sauior Iesus Christ , wherupon I may make this argument : Who soeuer is neyther oure Lorde , nor our God , to hym ought we in no wise to geue godly honor , nor yet to woorshyp hym : But neither the angels nor the dead Saintes are our Lordes and gods , but are ministers of our Lorde god , and vnder hym our felowe seruantes : To them therfore ought we in no wise to geue godly honor , nor yet to worshyppe them . Neyther do we honoure and worship Christ , Christ is ●ot wor●hipped be cause he is ●an , but be cause he is ●●ue and ●aturall ●nd Obie . 29 because that he is holy and righteous : or because that he is welbeloued of god but because that he is true and naturall God , of one substance with the father & the holy ghoste .

Albion .

They saye that they do honour and worshyp god as well as ye doo : and that they do not honour and worshyppe the Saintes or aungels as goddes , but as the trends of god . Again , they do not worshippe the gods of the gentiles whiche were eyther diuels or wicked men .

Philalethes .

Answer . This their aunswere is not worth a ryshe . For , Christ doth not say : Thou shalt not worship vnclene spirits or wicked men : But thou shalt honor the lorde thy god and him onely shalte thou worshyppe .

Eutrapelus .

I doo nowe remember a thing , which I haue read in saint Augustine , where he dothe dispute , why the Romaynes , worthye history . sithe that they did worship the gods of all nations , could neuer abyde to worshyppe the LORDE God of Israell . And he dothe aleadge the reasonne , whyche Socrates dothe brynge in also , that in relygion it is required that euery God be worshipped according to his owne will , Socrates sayng touching the worshipping of god and not according to the wil and pleasure of the worshippers . But false gods as filthye fornicatours do require no such thynge of their worshippers , that they shoulde be worshipped alone , Sith then that the true lyuing god , the god of Israell wyll be worshipped alone , it did come to passe that the Romaines would in no wise receaue and alowe his religion . For , they could not abide , that for one onely gods sake , all the other gods shoulde be reiected and put doune .

Albion .

Obie . 30 I will go no farther in this matter . For , my mynde , thankes be to god , is well satisfied in it . But my gentill men , Of images . dydde saye that ye do wonderfully hynder the deuotion of the people , Why the p●●istes will ●aue ima●es in their ●hurches . in this that ye will haue neither the image of Christe , nor of his mother the virgine Marye , nor of the holye saints to stand in the churches nor in the places of praier . For , first and foremost , they be the bookes of the lay people , wher by the simple and ignoraunt doo learne many goodly thinges , whiche withoute them , they could not learne . Whanne ye take theym awaye , thenne ( saye my gentill men ) ye take away the bookes of the laye people , and so cause theym still to remaine in blindnesse and ignorance . Secondelye , they are goodly meanes to stirre vp the heartes of the people to deuotion . And ye know that the more meanes we haue to stir vp our heartes & mindes to deuotion , the better it is . And therfore to put doun the image of Christ , the image of the vyrgin Mary , & to put doune the images of the saints is to lesse or rather to putte doune the meanes that our forefathers haue apointed and ordeined for to stir vp the hearts and mindes of the symple and ignorant people vnto deuotion .

Phila.

I wil be the shorter in this mater , because that a godlye learned man and faithfull brother of oures , hath set forthe three godly and learned homelies , wher in this argument to so learnedly handeled , and all thinges perteininge vnto it , so profoundely discussed , that it wil be in a maner thought to be but labour lost , to meddell any more in this matter .

Albion

I praye you brother Philalethes , to tell me , who it is , that hath done it .

Philale .

Hearke in your eare .

Albion .

I knowe him very well . We haue to sewe of such men in this realm . The lord god shal rewarde him , for this his good trauayle & labour . But in the meane while , let vs heare , what ye are able to saye to this , that they dooe brynge for the maintenance of their images .

PHILALETHES .

Answer . All that ye haue aleadged doo stande in twoo poinctes . First that the images are the bookes of the laye people : Secondlye that they are meanes for to stirre vppe the myndes of the symple and ignoraunte to deuotion . The same touchynge ymages dydde Damascenus teache in hys .iiii. damascene gardiners chiefe refuge . booke de orthodoxa fide , and .17 . chapiter , and also Gregorye the greate , in his Register or booke of Epistels . 10. parte , and fowerth Epistell , but howe well and agreablye to the Scriptures , let all the godly iudge . Firste these are the woordes of the holye prophete Abakuk : what profitteth the ymage ? ●ba . 2. For the maker therof hathe made it an ymage , and a teacher of lyes . Whereby it foloweth , that images are the bookes of lyes , and that they comme of hym , who is a lyar from the beginninge , and the father of lyes . Nowe well thenne , are the simple and ignoraunte , for whome oure Sauioure IESVS CHRISTE , dydde vouchsafe to shed his deare heart bloud , The simple and ignorant are well prouided for vnder the pope . Hiere 10. prouided for , when such bookes are deliuered vnto them , in steade of the liuelye preachyng of gods worde ? It is not , for naught that Hieremye doth cry out . They altogether dote , and are foolishe , for the stocke is a doctrnne of vanitye .

Dydimus .

What meaneth he by that ?

PHILALETH .

Because the people thought , that to haue ymages was a meane to serue GOD , and to brynge theim to the knowledge of him , he sheweth that nothyng more displeaseth God , nor bryngeth man into greater errours , and ignoraunce of GOD , therfore he calleth theym the doctryne of vanitye , and the worke of errours , as Abakuk ( as ye hearde afore ) callethe theym , the teachers of lyes . Who in the same Chapiter , thundreth oute agaynste the wycked opinion of theym that call theym the bookes of the laye people , on this manner : Wo vnto hym , that sayethe vnto the woode , awake : and vnto the damme stone : ryse vppe . Shoulde the same teache ? Beeholde , it is layed ouer wyth golde and syluer , and there is no breathe in it . But the lorde is in his holy temple . As yf he shoulde say : There is no breathe , no life nor mouing in the images . How should they teache then ? Therfore it is a meere vanitye and fondenesse , to sette forth ymages vnto the people , for theyr teachers & scoole maisters : sithe that the liuing god , who is the true teacher , is in the myddest of hys temple , that is in the hearte of the faithfull , teachynge those thinges that are both profitable , & euerlasting . Wherunto maye be added this saiyng of Saint Paule : 2. Cor. 6. What agreement hath the temple of god wyth ymages ? but ye are the temple of the lyuing god : who liueth & worketh in you . More credite ought to be geuen to these testimonies of the prophetes and of the Apostels , thanne to the vayne gloses of all Gregories and Damascenes in the world .

Albion .

Yet ye can not deny but that they be meanes to stirre vp the hartes of the simple and ignoraunt people vnto deuotion .

Philalethes .

This is but a vayne saying . For , the heartes of the faithfull , are onely stirred vppe to godlynes , by the holy spirite of god , whiche as he worketh inwardelye in the heart , hauynge these externe and outewarde meanes , that is to say , the preachynge of gods worde , Images are meanes to stirre vp the heartes of men not to deuotion but to idolatrous superstition . and the right ministration of the Sacramentes : so did he neuer coumpt images emong his meanes but rather in all places doeth streightly forbydde them , with terrible and dredfull threatnynges agaynst them , that of a selfe will , will styll ( for the causes by you rehersed ) haue and maintain theim to the great hyndraunce of true godlynesse , and to the aduancement , not of deuotion , but of diuellishe and ydolatrous superstition .

Eutrape .

All men , that haue any sparke of sounde reason and iudgement in their heades , muste needes meruaile at the beastlynesse of these men : for I woulde fayne knowe of them , when our sauior Iesus Christ dyd sende his Apostles foorthe into the worlde , whether dyd he sende theim to bee paynters , caruers , and makers of ymages , and not rather to preache the gospel vnto euery reasonable creature . Why the apostelles were sent into the worlde . We do reade no where that they dyd carye about ymages , or that they dyd vse anye other outwarde signes thanne the ryghte and due ministration of the Sacramentes , accordyng to the institution and ordaynance of their maister and sauiour Iesu Christe . Saint Paule in the iii. chapiter of the epistle to the Galathians , dothe with an exclamation speake thus vnto them : O foolyshe Galatians who hath bewitched you , that ye should not obeye the truth ? beefore whose eyes Iesus Christ was afore , paynted oute , and crucified among you ? that is , To whome Christ , was so liuely preached , as yf his lyuely ymage were set beefore your eyes , or as yf he had bene crucified among you ? I am sure , that Paule dyd all these thinges with the pencell of his tongue , and with the liuely preachynge of the gospell . But these good fellowes because they will not be troubled wyth to much preachyng , Th●● preachers of 〈◊〉 pope do appoint mete vicars vnder them . nor break their braines about the study of the scriptures nor yet take to muche payne in teachyng of the people , in exhorting and comforting the faithfull congregation , that so they might liue at ease , and in continuall idlenesse , they haue appoincted vnto vs meete vicares , for to supply their roumes , and to preache vnto the people for theym , that is , dumme ymages , domme stockes and stones , whiche haue mouthes and speske not , which haue eyes and see not whiche haue eares , and heare not . &c. And truely we are worthy of such preachers . For , we can not abyde the liuely voyce of the faithfull ministers of God when they doo sharpely rebuke our synnes whenne they doo liuely disclose and bryng to lyght our hypocrisie and dissimulation , The righteous iudgement of God . or when they do ernestyle exhorte vs to repentance and amendment of lyfe . And therfore by the righteouse iudgemente of God suche preachers are appointed vnto vs , Fonde obiections of the papist● as will suffer vs to runne headlong into euerlasting perdition bothe of body and soule .

Dydimus .

I haue heard some of them say , that the holy euangelist Saint Luke dyd paynte first the image of the virgine Mary , and did set it forth with liuely colours . And also that Nichodemus , who came vnto our sauiour Iesu Christ by night , hadde the image of Christ being crucified , wherof father Athanasius maketh mention , describyng the miracle that was wrought aboute it in Berythus which is a famous citye of Phenicia . Doo wee not reade that Abagarus the kinge of Edessenes dyd send our sauiour Iesu Christ a painter , for to bring his ymage vnto hym ? And when he could not do it , because of the exceadynge great brightness● of hys face , Christ him selfe toke his cloth , that he would haue painted him on , and dyd wipe his face with it , and so gaue him in the cloth a lyuely ymage or resemblance of his face , sending it to Aba●arus , who was desirous of it . The like saye they , did happen vnto the Veronike , whenne she dyd retche her fyne cloute vnto oure sauiour Iesu Christ to drie his face with al that did runne ful of sweate . Aunswer to these fond● obiecti●ns . Saint Luke phi●icion and not a painter .

Eutrape .

By my brother Philalethes leaue , I thinke , I am able to answere to al these obiections . First and foremost , touching the holy euangelist saint Luke , we rede no where that euer he was a paynter : we rede in deede that he was a phisicion by his science , Why Luke ●s called a 〈◊〉 paynter of ●ome . and that afterwards he was of god called to be a phisicion of the soules as he hadde bene afore the phisicion of the bodye . But these beastes doo not make , that he is called a painter because of the playnesse of his style , and also because that of all to her euangelistes , he did sette fourthe most liuely , the stronge faith , humilitye and lowlynesse , and all oher heauely vertues of the blessed virgin Mary , whereof it did come to passe , that some did affirme , that Luke paynted out the virgin Mary . And as for the crosse and crucifix of Berythus , wherof Nychodemus is a witnesse , and Athanasius the writer , we do by good ryght reiect the whole history as most lying and fabulouse , and whiche is most falsely fathered vpon the the holy father Athanasius which thing any man , that is of any sound iudgement may easelye smell out . And verely I meruaile , that they be nothing ashamed to adscribe these vayne trifles , which are without witte and learnyng vnto suche godly auncient fathers . The vanity ●f the enemies in a●●gi●g thei c●re not what . The like may we say of the history of Abagarus , and of the Veronike , for if any such thing had bene done and wroughte , the holy euangelistes woulde not haue passed it ouer , sithe that they did moste diligently set forthe thinges of smaller importaunce . They did describe the messages of priuate personnes vnto Chryste , and should they haue holden their peace of the Ambassades of kynges ? They did diligently write of the hemme of Christes garment , and of the touchyng of it , and what miracle was then wrought , Math. ● . Mar. ● . Lu. 8. by the vertue that proceded from Chryste : but not one word did they speak of the napkin nor of this meruelous image of Christes face . Therfore , such vayne & fonde histories , in these highe pointes of oure religion , ought in no wise to take place .

Dydimus .

Sythe that our brother Philalethes , and our brother Albion , do geue vs leaue , I will vtter forth all that I haue heard . I was not long sens , in a place , where we fel into disputation concernyng images , & when I did aleadge the lawe of god which did expressely forbid images , whiche is : Thou shalte not make to thy selfe any grauen ymage , Exod. 20 nor anye lykenesse of any thinge that is in heauen aboue , or in the erth beneth or in the water vnder the erth , thou shalt not bowe doun to them nor worshyp them . Agayn : Take heede to your selues . For , ye sawe no ymage in the day , Deut. 4. that the lorde spake vnto you , in Horeb , oute of the myddes of the fyer : that you corrupte not your selues , or make you a grauen image , or representation of any fygure : Whether it bee the lykenesse of male , and female . The lykenesse of anye beaste that is on the earthe , or the lykenesse of anye feathered foule , that flieth in the ayre . Or the lykenesse of any thynge that crepeth on the erth , or the lykenesse of any fysh , that is in the waters beneth the earthe . &c. Aunswer was made me , Obiec . 29 that god didde also commaund to make Cherubin , oxen , lions , lilies , roses and other lyke , as we see to haue beene done in the tabernacle of Moyses , and in the temple of Salomon . And that Moyses also dydde sette vppe the brasen Serpente , and Iosuah a stone vnto the Lorde . Whereby they doo gather , Num. 21 . that the lawe dothe not forbydde all maner of ymages , and that therfore their ymages are laufull . Obiec . 31 Agayne : Althoughe it was not laufull in the olde time for to expresse god with an ymage , because that he was not yet sene in an humayne forme or shape , yet sythe beyng incarnated , he was made like vnto men in all thynges , synne onelye excepted , it is laufull for to haue an image of him . These dyd seme vnto me verye hard obiections , therfore , I would fayn be better instructed by you that I maye be the more able to aunswer them an other tyme .

Eutrape .

Answer . to the 31. obiection We graunt , that the lawe doth not forbydde all maner of signes . And we doo not chiefely speake against those , that stande vppe , for to be worshipped , or that are kepte in places , where there is any peryl of idolatry . As for the brasen Serpente , besydes that it was a figure of our sauiour Iesu Christ as he him selfe doth testifye , The brsen serpent Iohn . 3. saying : As Moyses exalted the serpente in the wildernesse , so the sonne of man must be exalted , that whosoeuer beleueth in hym , should not perishe , but haue euerlasting life : there was an expresse commaundement touching it But no such thing can they aleadge for their ymages . Againe , at the beginning , whiles Moses and certaine godly iudges did liue , no man did worshippe the brasen Serpent , no man did offer incense vnto it : but at length by processe of tyme , it dydde growe in to an wonderful superstition . Whyche thing beynge perceaued by that moste holye kynge Ezechias , 1. Kin ●8 . he dydde not sende prophetes , for to admonyshe and warne people that the brasen serpent was not set vp of Moses for to bee woorshipped , but for to be a memorial or remembrance and that therfor it ought not to be worshipped , howbeit it ought to be kept stil , and the abuse to be taken awaye , but dydde cause it to be put doune , to be beaten in to pouder and to be caste into a ryuer . He dyd not passe for the long obseruance and that it hadde continued about seuen hundred yeares or more , and that there had bene many holy and godlye kynges afore hym , which did winke at the matter . And yet we read that he was greatlye praysed for this acte . Would god al princes of his 〈◊〉 ●ome 〈◊〉 for 〈…〉 ●●chias . Let all princes in Christendome doo the like vnto these images that idolatry hath bene committed vnto , althoughe at the beginnynge they were not set vppe for to bee woorshypped , but for to bee monumentes or remembraunces . Now 〈◊〉 ●on dydde not therfore brynge into the temple , oxen , lions , The 〈…〉 . likenesses of byrdes with such other thynges , that by th●i● he myghte represente GOD or admonysshe the people of holye thynges , or that ●●y shoulde bee bookes vnto the ●●mple and ignoraunte , but that therwith he might adorne and beautifie the vesselles of the temple . And therfore they were made for a trymmyng and deckynge , and not for to be worshipped .

DYDIMVS .

And maye wee not dooe the lyke for to trymme and decke oure churches with all ?

EVTRAPF .

Yf ye hadde said for to bringe in gaynes and lucre , than had ye tolde the truthe . The temples of the christians do requyre an other manner of deckyng or t●immynge . Be it so , that Cherubin , whiche are likenesses of aungelles were sette about the mercye seate , what doth that make for their idolatry , or what doth that proue that ymages do teache . For , neyther do we reade that any godly honour was doone vnto them , nor the arke set forth abroade vnto the people , but kept secretly in the holiest place . For it was not lawfull for to beholde it with prophane eyes , as wee maye see in the iiii . chapiter of the Numbers and seconde Paralypomenon , and fifth chapiter . Cherobin why they were made Moreouer the Cherubin were nothing elles but signes of the presence of GOD and a certayne peculiar institution and ordeynaunce of God

But no man will say , that the peculiar ordinaunces of God are preiudiciall to his vniuersall lawes . Elias did sett vp an altare in Carmelus against the writen lawe of god , and yet he dyd not offende . Certaine other dyd the lyke , and yet they may not vppon these peculiar actes gather an vniuersall conclusion against the lawe of sette foorth in the .xii. chapi . of Deuteronomie . For , the vniuersall law is not abrogated by certain priuiledges and dispensations granted of god . The lyke may we say of the titles , whiche Iosuah and Samuell dyd sette vp agaynst the written lawe , accordyng to the qualitie of the presente state , of the tymes , and of the persons . In the meane while the vniuersall law of god , whiche forbiddeth all menne to make images , or to worship them , standeth still vnmouable , and is always of lyke force and strengthe .

Dydimus .

Why then , An other 〈◊〉 ob●● 〈…〉 yf they bee not woorshypped , or yf no godly honour bee doone vnto them , they may be had . But who would thinke that men are so bulleheaded , that they wyll worshyp dumme ymages , Answer and not rather the thynges that are signified and represented by them ?

Eutrape .

Ye haue learned alreadye of oure brother Philalethes , that God onelye ought to be worshipped . Deuter ● But God can bee represented by no manner of similitude or ymage , yea there is an expresse lawe that doth forbid vs to attempt any suche thinge . And where as ye saye that men are not so dul●e headed , that they will worshippe dumme ymages , the experience hath taughte vs the contrarye . For , aboue a thousande yeares ago , the people dyd thorough ygnoraunce of the lawe of God , and the negligence of bishoppes , begynne to worshippe dumme ymages . ●erenus bi●hop of ma●●ilia . I haue for a witnesse of thys thynge , Serenus bishoppe of Massilia , who dydde in hys citye breake downe the ymage of Chryste , and the ymages of the Saynctes , because that he sawe theym to bee worshipped of the people I knowe well that Gregorye didde sore impugne that facte of hys : but what Scripture dothe he brynge for to improue S●renus deade ? None at all .

Moreouer yf ( as ye saye ) they dydde not worshyppe the ymages , but the thynges represented by theym : Why , hauynge the roode and ymage of the vrygyne Ma●ye at home in her owne churches , Let the enemies aun●●er to this ●●●ction of euery can . dydde they goe a gaddynge to oure Ladye of Wilsdone , to our Ladye of Walsingame , to the holye roode of Bostonne ? Was not thys a prayne and a manifeste token and sygne that they were wedded to the images , & that they thoughte more holynesse to bee in the one thanne in the other ? Elles woulde they haue contented theym selues with those ymages , that they hadde at home in their owne churches , and spared both co●● and labour which they bestowed vpon then idolatrous pilgrimages .

PHILALETHES .

Sayeng a littell before that GOD canne bee represented by no manner of similitude , and ymage , ye dydde putte me in minde of the words of Athanasius , Athana . in ●bio cont●a gentes . whiche are these : Lette theym tell me ( I praye theym ) howe GOD dothe aunswere or is knowen by suche thynges ? Is it by the mater or stuffe that is about them , and whereof they bee made , or by the form and shape that is geuen them ? Yf it bee by the stuffe , what neade is there of the forme or shape ? And why dyd not God rather , afore they were fashioned and shapen , appeare , and manyfest hymself , by the vniuersall stuffe ? But yf the form or shape that they haue receaued , is the cause of the knowledge of God , what nede is there of golde , or of any other stuffe ? Mark wei these wordes of Athanasius . or why is not God rather reuealed by the true liuyng creatures , whose shapes and formes the ymages are , for truly , according to their owne reason , the glorie of God should better be knowen : if god were manyfested and reuealed rather by the liuyng and reasonable creatures , than by the vnlyuyng and vnreasonable . Wherin they doo woorke great vngodlynesse to their owne destruction .

Albion .

I heard ones this place alleadged but answere was made agayne , Replye of the aduersaries . Aunswere to it . that Athanasius dyd write against the Gentils and heathen . And that therfore this place maketh nothyng against them .

Philalethes .

And I say , that as these wordes are written against the heathen , so may thei be alleaged agaynst them , that do bryng in , the gentilisme or heathenyshe fashyons . And what is seene , I praye you , in our pictures and ymages besydes the stuffe that they bee made of , and shape that is geuen vnto them ? They say , that the forme or shape , that is geuen vnto them dooth signifie and teache . But I wold fayne knowe of them , The ymages do neither teache he learned not yet the vnlearned Ergo they ●e vnprofitable . whome their ymages and pictures do teache , the learned or the vnlearned ? I am sure they can not teache the vnlearned , onelesse they haue an interpreter behynd them . For , the vnlearned , without a teacher , shall neuer bee able to learne , what is signified or represented by the ymage of the virgine Mary , nor yet by the ymage of the Crucifixe . The learned hathe no neede at all to learne of pictures and ymages , the same whyche he hathe moste certaynely learned by goddes woorde . What shall they bee able to saye to his , that the chiefest mysteries of our religion can be expressed with no colours . For with what pencelle shall they bee able to expresse the vertue of oure redemption , The chiefe misteries of our saluation can not be expressed by anye ymage . the glorie of the life to come , the imitation of vertues , and the obedience of the woorde ? Lette vs therefore contente oure selues wyth the moste trewe Teacher , I meane , the holy ghost , which doth teach vs with the worde of lyfe , and with the Sacramentes ordeyned by the eternall wysedome of god : Wherby all thinges perteining to our saluation , my plainly be sette forthe vnto vs , and receaued or vnderstanded of theym , that be not voide of the spirite of god .

Dydimu

Yet no answer hath bene made to this their obiection , where they say that although it was not lauful in the olde time , to expresse God with an ymage , bicause he was not yet sene in a humain forme or shape yet sith beyng incarnated , he was made lyke vnto vs in all thynges , sinne onely beyng excepted , it is laufull for to haue an ymage of hym .

Philalethes .

Answer . to the .32 . obiection Dan. c 7. What wyll they say to this place of Daniell ? The auncient of daies did sytte , whose garment was white as snowe , and the heares of his head lyke the pure wolle . And by and by after : As I behelde in visions by nyght , beholde , one lyke the sonne of man , came in the cloudes of heuen , and approched vnto the ancient of the dayes , and they brought hym before hym . Reade ye besides the 33. and fower and thirtie chapiter of Exodus . and the sixte chapiter of Esaie . In the meane while none of the auncient prophets , or of the holy men of god did set vp an ymage vnto the father , or vnto the sonne , neither did attempt to represente hym by any symilitude or shape made after the lykenesse of man . And what other thyng dyd lette them to doo it , but the playnenesse of the commandement of God , The sonne of god did not take vpon him our frayle nat●re to the ende that he should breake goddes lawe or be painted . and the reuerence that they bare vnto it ? Neither did our sauiour Iesus Christ , take vpon hym oure humaine nature , for to breake the lawe of God , or for to geue vnto paynters a paterne or profe of their arte : but for to be the pledge of the grace of GOD , of the eternall couenaunt and of the coniunction that is betwixt GOD and vs , and that he myghte haue what to offer for vs , for the price of our redemption , & declare what we mortall men ought to hope for . For therfore did he rise again , and dyd carye vp into heauen the body that he toke of vs , that we shoulde beleue , and be fully persuaded , that oure bodies shall ones bee translated , and taken vp from this vale of myserye being glorified into the euerlastynge kyngedome of heauen . Nowe , as muche as the body doothe excell , or is better then the shadow , so muche doothe the thyng whiche is represented by the signe , better than the signe . Note this But the flesshe of our sauiour Iesu Christe , if it had remained here , after the mysterie of oure saluation was fulfilled , hadde profited vs nothyng , muche lesse shoulde the liniamentes , picture , or image of the body of our sauior Iesu Christ doo vs any good : As touchyng his diuine nature , he is coequal , and of one substance with the father . But Esaie in the .xl. chapiter : All nations , sayth he , before hym , are as nothyng , and they are counted to hym lesse than nothynge , and vanitie . To whome then will they like God , or what similitude will ye sette vp vnto hym ?

Dydimus .

Obie . 33 I holde my selfe content with this answere . But what saye ye to this , whiche I hearde but a while ago ? I was in a place , where we entred into disputation concernynge these wordes , Idole , and Image . And there , some did affirme , that ye do them great wrong , in this , that ye call their images Idoles . Where as there is a greate difference betwixte them . For , by this word , eidole , they do vnderstand the representation of a thyng that is not , but this word , Image , which sometymes of the Latins is called simulachrum , is the representation of a thyng which is in deede .

Phila.

Answer . This am I sure , they can not denie , but that where soeuer the 70. interpreters , haue this word , cidolum ydole Hierom dyd translate it , simulachrum , an image . And in his eleuenth boke of his commentaries vpon Esaie , Hierome vpon these wordes of Ezechias prayer : Thou onely arte the God of all kingdomes , Their goddes are no gods , but the workes of mens handes , wood and stones : He did sayeth he , boldely pray vnto the Lorde , and doothe affirme hym to be the onely lyuyng God . Whereby we doo vnderstande , that eidoles are the ymages of dead men . So farre Hierom. A strong argumente again t the papistes . Now will I thus reason with them : Are not theyr images , the images of dead men , but eidoles , ar the images of dead men , therfore , their images are but eidols . It is plaine than the eidolu ● simulachrum , that is , an idol & an image be all one thing . Erasmus . Erasmus in his annotations that he did make vpon the new Testament , which worke is so hyghly commended by their holye father pope Leo the tenth , writeth on this maner : Thomas de Aquino , doothe bryng a newe difference betwixt Id●lum an ydole , and simulachrum , an ymage , because that an ymage is the repres●ntation of a naturall thyng , but an ydole , is as if an horsehead should be put to a mans body . Which distinction whether it be true or not , let other iudge , but it seemeth vnto me to be more worthie , to be ascribed to that Lexicon , or ●i●tionarie which is called Catholicon than otherwise . Ambrose Truely , Ambrose dothe make no difference betwixte an ydole and an ymage , neither doo I se any , sauyng only that the one is a greke word , and the other a latine worde . By these wordes of Erasmus , we doo easily vnderstand , what is the signification & vse of bothe the wordes . But this is most handsom , that they will not haue their images to be lykened vnto the idols of the Gentiles , Psal 115. because it is writen by the prophet : Their idoles are siluer and golde , the woorkes of mens handes . They haue mouthes and speake not , they haue eies and see not : eares haue they , and heare not : they haue nostrells and smelle not , handes haue they , and feele not , feete haue they and walke not , neyther doo they speake through their throte . Now , if they will not haue their ymages likened vnto the ydols of the gentiles , they must proue , that their images be not the workes of mens handes , that they can speake , see , heare , smell , feele , & walke , The ymages of the gentyl , & the images of the idola●●●us christ●ns be a● 〈◊〉 Obie . 34. and that they can bryng foorthe a voyce from theyr throte . If they can do none of these thyngs , and yet haue mouthes , eyes , eares , nosethrills handes & feete , if they be the workes of mens handes , it muste needes folowe , that the images of the idolatrous christians , and of the Gentiles be all one .

Albion .

Well , we graunt it is so . Are not these saint Paules wordes ? And ydole is nothyng in the worlde : if an ydole nothynge in the worlde , what harme can it doo , to kepe ydols , specially among them , that know that God onely oughte to be honored & worshypped ?

Philalethes .

And we will sette against theim , Answer . the example of the olde auncient chirche . For how doeth it chance , that neyther we , nor our forefathers did fynde the idoles of the gentiles in the commune temples ? Why did the holy martyrs of God , the prelates of chirches , the christian princes & iudges breake downe the idoles and images of the gods , Concilium Toletanum 3 and didde scrape oute all heathenyshe pictures ? The thirde councell of Toletum dyd make this decree : Because almoste throughoute all Spayne or Gallicia the sacriledge of idolatrie hath taken place , the holy Synode with the consent of the moste glorious prince hathe ordeined , that euery prest within his cure shal together with a iudge of the territorie search out diligentely the forenamed sacriledge , and when it is found out , in no wise to make any taryeng , or a puttyng of from daye to day , vtterly to banishe it away : & let theim with suche punishement , as they maye , bridell all theim that renne vnto suche errour : whiche thyng yf they doo neglect , let them know that they bothe shall incurre the peryll of excommunication . What neded I pray you , this constitution , if to kepe idols , is not hurtful vnto them , which know , that God only ought to be honored and woorshipped ? Did not those ancient bishops beleue , that god only ought to be honored & worshipped ? Yes verily . But in the meane while they did breake down all the idols : wherof it foloweth , that the sayeng of Saint Paule hath an other meanyng : Lett vs see therfore what is the right sense of it . The right exposicion of the place taken oute of . 1. Cor. ● Theophilactus did expounde and sette foorth the occasion of this place on this maner : There were some perfect emong the Corinthians , which were of opinion that man coulde not be defiled with any thyng that went into the bealy : and , whiche dyd vndoubtedly vnderstande and know , that ydoles are made of wood or of stone , & that they can hurt no man : & therfore going indifferently to the temples and altars of such idoles : they dyd gredily eate of the thyngs that wer offred vnto idols , when they which were of a weaker faith did see this , some of them went with the rest vnto the idoles temples , & did eate with them of those thinges that were offred vnto the idoles , but not with a like mynde & opinion , as thei which beleued the idols to be vnworthy to whom any sacrifice shold be offred . This their dooyng dyd moue Paule to be angrye . And why not ? For it hurted them bothe meruailously . It hurted them that were more perfect , because it made them partakers of the deuyls boorde : It hurted them that were losse perfecte , because it moued them to idolatrie . Paule therefore goeth about to remedie this euill , and so omyttyng or leauyng theim ( as many times he is wont to do ) that were of lesse perfection , he speketh vnto them that were more perfect , and doth moste chiefly represse and beate downe that vaine pride , whiche they had conceyued of their humaine knowledge & science . So muche doeth Theophilactus write of the occasion and argumente of this present pl●●e . How Pau●●oth ha el ●im selfe in ●ls mater . Saint Paule doth handle the whole matter after this sort : fyrst in the beginnyng , he dothe with a goodly crordium , touche the arrogancie of the fals Apostels , teachyng that any maner of knowledge be it neuer so excellent , if it be not moderated and ruled by charitie , is not onely vnprofitable , but also most pernitions and hurtefull . Afterwardes he doeth reherse the argumentes and obiections of the aduersaries , whyche he answereth by and by . This his saying , 1. Cor. 8. We knowe that an ydolle is nothyng in the worlde , doothe pertayne to the declaration of the aduersaries argument : for , they that gloried in their knowledge wente about to proue that it was laufull for any man to eate of those thynges , that were offred vnto ydoles , after this maner : The goddes of the gentiles are nothyng : Therfore their images and sacrifices are nothyng also .

Didymus .

Howe didde they proue their antecedent , or the first part of their argumente ?

Philalethes .

They dydde proue it thus : There is but one onely God : whatsoeuer then is spoken of the gods , it is both vayn and false . The conclusion is proued after this sort : The ydole or image doth represent him whose yamge it is . But it is most euident and plain , that the gods are nothing . Wherupon it must also folow that their idoles are nothing . His meaning is not , that the idoles that be in the world , be nothing at al. For , they are wood and stone , but because that they be of no value , force , The reason or P●u●e . ●uersaries or strength . Now Paules aduersaries takyng occasion of this , reasonned on this wyse : Sith that it is moste certayn , that ydoles are vayn , it is euident and plain that the worshippyng of theim is vayne also . If it be vaine , and the godly whithe confesse , that god onely ought to be worshipped , do beleue it to be vayn : the godly may without any scrupulositie of cōscīece be present at the sacrifices of the gentiles , and sitte with them at their feasts and banketts , which they doo keepe in the honor of their idols . For , the mynd beyng restored vnto it selfe , doth honor and worship the true liuing God alone : therfore it contemneth ydoles , and can not sithe it is purified by faithe , be polluted or defiled with those thinges that be offered vnto theim . Paule● auns●vere to ●heir reasons . Vnto all those , Paule maketh this answere : Although thou doest beleue , that there is but one God , and doest therefore vnderstande , that bothe the idoles , the worshypping of theim , and the sacrifices offered vnto them , are but mere vanitie , yet all men doo not see so muche , neyther doo they comme to the sacrifices , with the same conscience . He that is weake , and hath not yet cleane put away his olde inueterate errour , whiche he hadde sucked of his forefathers , dooth with a conscience sitte at suche meates , and accordyng to his olde superstition , whiche he hath no fully shaken of , doth feare and dreade those goddes , specially when he seeth thee , whome he taketh to be of a founde iudgement , to sytte at such prophane meates . For , he doeth suspecte , that thou dost eate with none other conscience , than he dooth , and so he is not smally offended with thy bolde exaumple . Bothe Ambrose , Theophilactus , and also Erasmus , doo allowe this exposition . Nowe if ye wille applie this to our purpose , ye shall fynde nothyng that doothe more strongly impugne the images . For , although he , whyche is of stronge faythe , knoweth the image to bee nothynge , yet another whyche hathe a weaker faythe , wylle not so iudge . But as long as he shall se them thus to stande in the Chyrches : He wylle reasonne thus wyth hym selfe : Idolatrye , is not so damnable as the preachers doo say it is , sythe that they are yet kept in the chyrches , and are tollerated or borne withall of some lerned menne : so they that frome their cradell haue bene nouseled in superstition , and haue bene persuaded , that there is some holy●●sse in the ymages are kept still in errour , & can neuer come to a perfect & pure faith . Images ought to be pardoun in all churches . Therfore it is a most wyse poynte to pull doune all ymages , sythe that it is against all reason , that a thyng of naught shoulde stande in the house of God , in the place of prayer , and therby had in reuerence . But the Apostell doth briefely and shortly conclude or knit vp the whole disputation saieng : Therfore wel beloued , flye from idolatry .

Albion .

Obie . 35 Yet it seemeth good vnto me , that we shold haue the ymage of Christ being crucifyed , with the images of his principall Apostelles , and speciallye of the blessed virgin Mary , the mother of our sauiour Iesu Christe , for to put put vs in mynde of the passion of Christe , and of the excellent vertues of his faithfull seruantes . The dulne● of men in ●●ings tha●●erta●●e t●●ut saluatio●

Eutrapelus .

I fynde nowe by experience that the same is moste true , whiche our brother Philalethes doth manye tymes repete in his sermons , that is , how that a good thynge hathe neede to be repeted and spoken of , many tymes , and often , elles it will not bee remembred . Ye hearde a little beefore , that the meanes appoynted of god , for to put vs in mynd of our Sauiour Iesu Christe , and of the saluation purchased by him , are the preachyng of the gospell , and the ryghte and due ministration of the sacramentes , according to the institution and ordeinance of the eternall wisedome of God , & that we are assured by goddes promises that the holy ghoste doth with these meanes worke in the hearts of the elect and chosen : but as for ymages , they be expressely forbidden in gods booke , it is so farre of , that they should be appoincted for to be meanes , wherby the holy ghost shold plante faithe in our heartes , or styrre vp our myndes to the knowledge of god , & to the imitation of his sayntes . And because aboue al other ye would haue the ymage of Christe , The ymage of ●he●● of all other is most perillous . I lette you to vnderstande , brother Albion , that of all other the ymage of Chryste is most perillous . For , the holyer the person is , whyche is represented by the ymage , ye shal finde the greater peryll of ydolatrye to bee in it . Therfore it was not without a iuste cause , that those godlye Emperours , Valens and Theodosius , dydde sette forth this godlye decree : Sithe that this is our chiefest care , aboue all thinges to mayntaine the religion of the high god , we grante to no man , Pertus Crinitus li. 9 de hone●ta di●ciplina , ca. 9. to graue or paint the ymage of our sauiour Christe , neyther to paynte it with colours , nor to graue it in sones , or in any other matter . ‡ ‡ But where soeuer it is found , we do bid ●t to be taken away . beyng determined to punishe greuouslye those , that will attempte anye thing contrarye to our decrees . Wherin , yf any man perchance dothe requyre an authour , lette him reade the edictes and decrees of Emperours , which haue ben gathered by these great learned men Tribunianus , Basilides , Theophilus Dioscorus and other , and most chieflye by the commaundement of Iustinianus the Emperor . Hereby do we learn that it perteyneth to the mainteynaunce of true religion to put ●oune all ymages , yea the ymage of oure Sauioure Iesu Christe , What wee do learn by the decree of those e●●perours . because that in it there is moste peryll of idolatry . And agayne that V●lens and Theodosius did not this alone but many other Emperours , whose decrees and edictes by the commandement of Iustinianus , haue bene collected and gathered together , by these greate learned men afore rehersed .

Philalethes .

Vnto these worthy Emperors , wil I ioyne a most godlye auncient bishoppe , whose greeke Epistle beyng sent to Iohn , bisshop of Hierusalem , Hierome did translate into latine , his name is Epiphanius . The wordes of the epistle are these , Epiphanius ●ishop of ●alamena ● 1● Cypius . The ministration of the supper of the Lord was called collecta , most chefly because , ●hat the gathe●●●ges were made for the ●o●c● . When we were goyng together to the holy place , which is called Bethel , there to celebrate the communion wyth thee , according to the Ecclesiasticall maner , and was come to a ferm place called Anablatha , and did see there , passynge by a light burnyng , and did aske what the place was , and had learned that it was a churche , and had gon for to pray , there I founde , as it were a vaile died or painted , and hauing the ymage as it were of Christ , or of som saint . For I do not wel remember whose ymage it was . Therfore , when I dyd see that the ymage of man , did hange in the churche contrary to the scriptures , I rente it , and did rather geue councel to the wardens of the place , that they should wynd some poore dead body in it . And a lyttell after : Bid I beeseeche thee , the elders of that place to receaue of the bearer , the vayle that is sent by vs : and charge them , that from henseforth no suche vailes be hanged in the churche of Chryste , that are contrary to our religion . For , it be commeth thyne honesty , to haue chiefly this solicitude and care , that the scrupulosity vnseemely for the churche of Christ , and the people committed vnto thee , should be taken away . Wherein we do learne all these godlye lessons . Eight godly lessons we learne by ●●pipha●● ' 2 Firste , that no place ought to be geuen in the church of Christ to those things that are agaynst the autority of the holy scriptures . Secondlye , that to geue place in the churche of Chryste vnto ymages , it is againste the autoritye of the holy scriptures , that is , of that lawe , which saieth : Thou shalte not make to thy self any grauen image . Ero. 20. Thrydely that not onely grauen & molten ymages , and suche as be set vppe on high , vpon or ouer the aultares , but also the paynted images ought to be cast out of the churches . Fourthly that the image of Chryste hym selfe , oughte in no wyse to stande in the churche , because that of all other it is moste peryllous , and breedeth the greatest Idolatrye . Fyftelye that the ymages oughte to be caste oute of the churche of Chryste , not onelye by sedulitye and diligence of doctrine , but also b verye facte and deede . Syrtelye , that they ought not coldely , but with a seruent and earnest zeale of the true religion be put doune , defaced , and broken all to pieces , as we do see this holy man of God Epiphanius to haue rente and torne in pieces the vayle that had the ymage of Christe paynted , whiche he dyd beyng moued with the zeale of god . Seuenthlye , that it is the parte and duetye of byshops , to see that ymages be not set vp in the churche of Christe . Last of all , that it is a mere scrupulosity and superstition , vnseemely for the churche , and the faithfull people of god , to haue images . Here maye we see , that this godlye auncient byshoppe did muche differ in iudgement , from those fonde personnes that thinke it to bee a profitable thynge for the people of God , to haue ymages standynge in the churches . Lette theym waye these thynges , that haue alwayes the fathers in theyr mouthes , and so lette theym learne , that it is more honestie for vs , to be called e●conoclastae , that is , ymage breakers , than to be called eiconoplastae , that is , ymage makers , and that we do approche nerer to the example of the olde ancient church than they do , although they brag and boast theym selues to be catholyke and Apostolyke .

Eutrapelus .

I would fayn it now of them what those churches , ouer whome Epiphanius was apointed superindentēt or bishop , did want to the right edifying of true godlinesse .

Philalethes .

As ye saye , for , he was a Christian bishop , he dydde preache , that Christe was the sauiour of the worlde , he dyd dispose the misteries of hys kingdome vnto the faythful , and dyd builde the house of god , without ymages , of wood , of stones , of syluer and golde , Epiphaulu● in buil●ing god ▪ house folowed the steppes of the auncient bishoppes . or without any paynted , grauen or molten ymages , folowing in this the steppes of the patriarches and Prophetes , of Chryste , and of hys Apostelles . Whyche all dydde plante religion and the true worshyppynge of GOD withoute ymages .

Dydimus .

Yf wee hadde manye Epiphanius in this realme , not one churche wyndowe shoulde bee lefte hole thorougheoute all England , there shoulde bee neyther crosse nor crucifixe lefte .

EVTRAPELVS .

Woulde God that we christians would labour & studye to know the true crosse of Christ . Of the cro● Math. 16. Our Sauiour Iesus Christe doth saye , He that will come after me , lette hym forsake hym selfe , take vp hys crosse and folowe me . Here , in this place by the crosse , he doth vnderstande , Crosse taken for affliction and trouble . the affliction trouble and persequution , that all they that will liue godly in our sauiour Iesu Christe are subiecte vnto . But the most parte of those that delyte so much in materiall crosses , doo take good heede , that they shal not be fayn to beare this crosse of Chryste . For , they flatter to wyth the worlde , swimmyng still betwixte twoo waters , that howsoeuer it goeth with religion , they thinke to escape free , and to be without all troubles . Paule wrytynge to the Galathians maketh mention of an other crosse , Galati 5. affyrmynge that they that bee of Chryste , haue crucifyed the fleshe wyth the lustes and concupiscences of the same . Crosse taken for cont●nual repent●unce and mortifie●g of the flesh Whereby he dothe meane , the continuall repentaunce that oughte to bee in vs , the mortifyinge of the fleshe and of the lustes and concupiscences of the same , and the brydelyng of our corrupted and poysoned nature , and of our inordinate passions . There is also an other crosse , 1. Corin 1 whyche saint Paul doth speake of , in the fyrst epistle or the Corinthians , saying , Christ hath not sent me to baptize but to preach the gospell , not with persuading woordes of worldely wisdome , lest the crosse of Christe should be abolished . For , the worde of the crosse is a foolyshenesse to them that perishe , Galat. 6. but to vs that obtain saluation , it is the power of god . And in an other place , God forbid that I should reioyce , but in the crosse of our lorde Iesu Christe , wherby the worlde is crucified vnto me , and I vnto the worlde . In these last textes , by the crosse he doth vnderstand , the death and passion of our sauiour Iesu Christe , Crosse take for the deth of 〈…〉 for the preaching of the same . and the preachynge of the same . As yf Paule shoulde say : I seeke none other where for the free pardonne and forgeuenesse of my synnes , and for my delyueraunce from eternall deathe , and from the power of Sathan , but in the merytes of the deathe , passion , and bloudesheadynge of oure Sauioure Iesu Chryste : Neyther doo I delyghte to preache and sette forthe any other thinge , for to declare the goodnesse and mercy of God , and the saluation of mankinde , but the death of hys onely be gotten sonne . These kindes of crosses , ought the true christians to delight and glow in .

Dydimus .

I redde but a whyle ago , Aungeli . a certayne booke , made in tyme of persequution , where wonverfull many doctours of the primitiue churche , are aleaged , which do al maintayn the signe , Osius . and as he sayth , the ymage of the crosse . There is also one Osius , whiche hathe written lately against the religion that is nowe , and he doth also bringe manye doctours which do holde with the signe of the crosse .

EVTRAPELVS .

As for the fyrst I know hym ful wel . In dede we haue many suche euill & wicked aungelles , that go about to peruerte the sinceritye of Christes religion , and that they maye doo it wyth a better coloure , they wil aleadge the fathers where they haue no warraunt at all of gods worde , and where they speake as menne . Galati 1. But what shall they wynne by it ? Yf an aungell from heauen shoulde preache vnto me any other Gospell , than hathe bene preached , he shal be vnto me Anathema that is to saye : Tertullian de praese iphaereticorū . accursed . Are not these Tertullians wordes : We ought to indulge or brynge nothyng of our owne heade , neyther to chose that which anye man hath brought in of his owne head , or of his owne brayne . We haue the Apostelles for our authors , which dyd not those of their owne braynes , what they should bring in , but didde faithfully assigne and delyuer vnto nations that , whych they receaued of the Lord . Therfore , yf an aungell from heauen shoulde preache any other Gospell vnto vs , we would pronounce it to be accursed . Are not also these Hieromes wordes . Hiero. in Ma ca 23. Quod de scripturis non habet autoritatem , eadem facilitate contemnitur , qua probatur . That is : That which hath no auctority out of the scriptures , or by the scriptures , maye as easely bee contemned as it is proued . Ambro. de virginibus lib. 4. Ambrose also writeth on this maner . We do by good ryght condemne all newe thinges , that Chryste hath not taughte . For , Christe is the waye vnto the faythefull . Yf therfore , CHRISTE hath not taught that , whyche wee doo teache , wee dooe also iudge it execrable ▪ heare also what Origene sayeth . Wee haue neede to brynge the Scriptures for a witnesse . Orige . ho. ● . in ●●e . For oure meanynges and exposicions , wythoute these witnesses haue no credite . These testimonies and autorities of the forefathers do sufficientlye proue that the olde aunciente writers oughte no farther , to bee beeleued than they dooe brynge Goddes woorde for theyr warraunte . But in all these auctorities that bothe youre angelicall writer , and also Ossus dothe brynge , what warraunt of Goddes worde haue they ?

DYDIMVS .

Obi. 36 Augu. 11 ●ct● . 118. in Ioannem I doo thynke none other , but that ye wyll attribute muche to Sainte Augustyne , as to hym whom all menne do acknowledged to be one of the chiefe pyllours of the churche . But these are his very wordes : What is it , that all menne doo knowe the sygne of Chryste ? Whyche sygne , yf it bee not made eyther in the foreheades of theym that dooe beeleue , or in the water , wherewyth wee are regenerated , or in the oyle wherwyth wee are annoyncted , or in the sacrifice wherwyth they are fedde and nourysshed , none of all these things is rightly done . What coulde be spoken more playnely than this ?

Eutrapelus .

Answer . In deede this is plainly spoken : But where is the scripture or woorde of God , that he doothe bryng for his warraunt ? Heare nowe what he saieth hym self : Neither ought we to take the disputations of all men , Augu. episto ad fortuna . 111. howe catholike soeuer and commendable they be , as the Canonicall scriptures , as though we may not , safe the reuerence that is due vnto suche men , improue and refuse any thing of their writynges , if we fynd that they haue ment otherwise , than the truthe dooth alow , beyng by the help of God , founde by vs or by other And in an other place : I am not moued with the authoritie of this epistle . For I do not take the letters of Cyprian as the canonical scriptures . but I do try his writings by the canonical scriptures , Contra Cres●on . g●●ma●● 〈◊〉 . 2. c 32. And whatsoeuer in them dooth agree with th● autoritie of the holy scriptures , I doo receaue it with his commendation , and what so euer doothe not agree with goddes woorde , I doo by his good leaue refuse it . Manny other places myght I alleadge out of this auncient Father , but these with the rest alleadged before , shall suffise to proue , howe farrefoorthe menne , be they neuer so excellente , oughte to bee credited . Nowe lette vs cope sommewhat nearer with oure ennemyes : where , in all those places , that they bothe doo alleadge , is there any iote or syllable of goddes woorde ? But the Doctoures wyll bee beleued , but as farre foorthe as they doo brynge Goddes worde for theyr warraunt : therefore in all those authorities that they haue brought , I maye choose whether I wyll beleeue theym or not . Howe manye thynges haue beene vsed by those forefathers , whyche afterwardes haue been abolished ? In Tertullians tyme , Many thinges did the olde mei fathers vse v●hich by good right are now out doune . mylke and honye was geuen and offered vnto theym that were baptised . Bothe in Cyprians and in saynt Augustine tyme they mynistred the communion vnto younge infantes and babes . But yet all these thynges haue beene by good ryghte abolysshed , so maye it bee of all other thynges that haue been vsed withoute the woorde of GOD , as is theyr consecrated or holye oyle , whych which they called Chrisme , the signe of the crosse , and other lyke thynges , that haue no expresse commaundemente in Gods booke .

Dydimus .

Obie . 37 Howe chaunceth that by the signe of the Crosse ( as they say ) the diuels and vncleane spirites haue ben dryuen away , if it bee not allowed of God , nor yet by his worde ?

EVTRAPELVS .

Answer . It maye be , that this , as all other myracles , was graunted for a tyme , for to get more authoritie vnto the doctrine of the gospell , and vnto the christian religion , emonge the vnbeleuyng Gentiles , Chr. 49 in Ma. 24. ca Augu. lib 1. ●etract . ca. 23. but nowe , yea a greate whyles sens , as bothe Chrysostome and Augustine dooth testifye , the woorkynge of myracles is ceassed . So that nowe we oughte rather to take good heede vnto oure selues , leste we be seduced and deceaued by Sathan the dyuell , and made to put oure truste where no truste is to bee putte . What crossynge , I praye you , doo the coniurers , charmers , and sorcerers of oure tyme vse ? I doo not denye , but that the vncleane spirites , make sometimes as thoughe they were wounderfullye scarred with theyr crossynge ? But wherefore is this , but for to brynge theyr diuellyshe arte , whereof the vncleane spirites theyr selues , are authors to greater credite . To bee shorte , they go aboute by this doctrine , to make vs to leane that wherein our whole truste oughte to bee , and to put oure truste in thynges of naught . Ye know , what lyeng tales we haue hearde of theyr coniured water , of what vertue , power , The lvinge ●ales touching coniured water . and strength , it hathe been for to dryue awaye vncleane spirites , where soeuer it shoulde bee sprinkeled : so that they dydde mooste sacrilegeously attribute vnto theyr beggarlye inuentions the same , that oughte onely and solely to be attributed vnto the bloode of our sauyour Iesu Christe , beeyng thorough faythe , and by the myghtye operation of the holye ghoste , sprynkeled in our consciences . Exo. 12 , For as the bloode of the lambe beeyng stryken on the twoo poastes , and vppon the vpper poste of the doore of the Hebrewes houses , dydde keepe of the destroyer , not beecause that the bloudde of a brute beaste had any suche vertue of it selfe , but beecause it was the Lordes Instytution , buylded on his woorde , and thorough faythe obeyed of the Hebrewes . Euen so , the bloode onely of oure sauioure Iesu Christe ( whereof the bloode of the Paschall Lambe was a fygure ) beyng by the myghtie operation of the Holy ghoste , and thorough faythe ( as I sayde before ) sprynkled in oure consciences , canne keepe and preserue vs frome the destroyer , that is , frome the ennemie of our saluation , Sathan the dyuell .

Dydimus .

Obi. 38 At Alexandria ( as it appeareth by the Ecclesiasticall hystories ( euerye Christian hadde the signe of the Crosse paynted vppon their postes , and in the entryng of theyr houses , and vppon theyr pyllars .

Eutrapelus .

Ye may also adde , that the olde ancient christians when they went foorth , were wonte commonly to make the signe of the crosse vppon theyr foreheades . But what maketh this for youre pourpose ? Why the olde Christians did vse the sign of the crosse . They dydde it , neyther for to put theym selues in remebraunce of the passion of Christe ( for they hadde then the woorde of God lyuely preached vnto theym , and the sacramentes rightely mynistred ) nor yet for to dryue awaye vncleane spirites , but for to declare vnto all the holle worlde , that they were nothyng ashamed of Christe crucified : and that they were at all tymes readye to beare his crosse , whensoeuer it shold please hym to laye it vpon theym , and to lyue and die in his quarell . But now sythe that wee all professe Christe , and glorie in his deathe , whyche he suffered vpon the crosse , what nede haue we of suche ceremonies , sythe that they were neuer commaunded of God , and muche ydolatrie at length hath growen aboute theym , in somuch that the same whiche ought only to be attributed vnto the preachyng of the gospell , and to the ryght ministration of the sacramentes , and consequently vnto the deathe , passion , and bloodsheadyng of our Sauiour Iesu Christe , offered and represented vnto vs by the same , hath beene most vngodly attributed vnto the workes of their own handes . Wherby thei doo well deserue to bee put doune , and to be cleane abolished . The brasen serpent ( wherof we spake before ) was erected and set vp by the expresse commandement of God , it was vnto the hebrues a monument , memorial , or remembrance of the benefites that they had receaued at gods handes in the wildernesse , whan they were deliuered frome the styng of the fyry serpentes , and a figure of oure sauior Iesu Christ Yet as soone as the people began to abuse it , good kyng Ezechias did not sticke to breake it doune . Howe much more ought christian princis to do the like in those thyngs , which god neuer commanded , and by the meanes wherof , the worlde hath been filled with idolatrie ?

Dydimus .

Ye can proue no suche thing by the signe of the crosse .

Eutrapelus .

No ? Besides all that hathe ben said alredy : it is not vnknowen vnto you , what knelyng , knockyng , and creepyng to the crosse , hath ben vsed among the idolatrous christians , & what godly honor hath ben geuen vnto a piece of mettall , or of wood , and stone , being fashioned after the likenesse of a crosse .

Didymus

A smal shift This was not doone to the crosse , but to hym that dyd hang on the crosse .

Eutrapelus .

So dyd the heathen go about to excuse theyr idolatrie , sayeng , that they dyd not worshyp the ydoles that were made of wood and stone , of siluer and gold , or of some other metall , but them , that the images dyd represente . I meruaile that the christians be not ashamed in this poynt to be like vnto the idolatrous heathen .

Dydimus .

Obi. 39 Damascene . Dothe not that good doctour Damascenus , affirme plainely , that the signe of the crosse ought to be worshipped ? I do the boldlier alleadge hym , because that he is of no small antiquitie .

Eutra .

Answer . And I will set against hym , that moste holye and learned father Ambrose , who is a great deale more ancient than he : Am. de obi ▪ Theodosii . speakyng of the fyndynge oute of the holye crosse by Helene Constantines mother , he sayth these wordes : Inuenit ergo Helena titulum , regem adorauit , non lignum vtique , quia hic Gentilis est error , & vanitas impiorum , sed adorauit illum , qui pependit in ligno , scriptus in titulo , That is : Helene therefore , dydde fynde the title , shee woorshypped the kynge , and not the woodde verylye . For , this is an erroure of the Gentiles , and a vanytie of the vngodly : But she woorshypped hym that hong on the woode , whiche was writen in the title . Here do we lerne , that to worship euen the very crosse that Christ did hange vpon , it is an errour of the gentilles , and a vanitye of the vngodly . Nowe , yf the crosse that Christ dyd hange vppon , and dydde embrewe with his bloude , maye not be worshipped , onlesse we will run into the errour of the idolatrous heathe and into the vanity of the vngodly : Note this argument . how muche lesse ought the other crosses that are onely made after the figure and likenesse of it to be worshipped ? It is a wonder , to see your greate learned rabbies , to be fallen into such a dotage , or rather to be growen into such arageous madnes , that they will with fyre and sword compell men to worshippe a piece of metall , of woode or stone . But this is most to be abhorred of all , that they haue geuen vnto it , the honoure of inuocation ( which as it hath bene sufficiently proued before , It beginneth Ve●il la regis prodeunt . doth perteyne onely to god ) For , thus shall ye fynde written in the hymne , which they doo singe on passion sondaye . O crux aue spes vnica , hoc passionis tempore , auge p●is iustitiam , reisque dona veniam . That is : O crosse , beynge oure onelye hope , at this tyme of the passion , augmente and encrease righteousnesse in the godlye , and geue pardonne to them that are gilty . What coulde bee spoken more blasphemouslye than this ? I doo here let passe that ydolatry of the good friday , as they do term it , when they be wont to roare oute in a foren tongue , their crucem tuam adoramus Domine we doo worship thy crosse O lorde , whyles the people as amased geese are crepynge on theyr knees vnto a piece of metall .

Dydimus .

Obi. 4 But nowe all thinges are put doune , all ydolatrye is taken awaye , and the creepyng vnto the no more vsed . Therfore , it maye bee had without any peryll .

Eutrapelus .

Answer . Ye are greatlye begyled , yf ye thinke so . At the fyrst , the crosse was not brought in , to the intente that it shoulde be worshipped , but onelye for the consideracions afore rehersed : Yet we see by processe of tyme , the dyuell dyd by the meanes of if , fyll all the worlde with ydolatrye . And thinke thou that he is not styll that dyuell that he was ? or that he wyll not to the worldes ende so we moste busely his poysonned darnell , in the Lordes fielde ? It is very harde euen at thys present tyme that the Gospell is moste purelye and syncerely preached euerye where , to keepe the people from woorshyppyng of the crosse , whersoeuer it is sette vppe . What will it bee , where the Gospell is not preached ? or where it is not set foorth accordyngly ?

Philalethes .

Thre great mischiefs that the images because Wis. 14. They say , that ymages maye be had , so that they be not worshypped , but I am of a contrary opinion . For , I can not se but that they doo much harme at all tymes , and cause great myschiefe . Fyrste and foremost . The syght of them dothe allure men vnto idolatry , which of oure owne corrupted nature wee are frome our cradell inclyued vnto . For , thus we reade in the booke of wysedome : of the creatures of God , they are become abhomination , and stumblyng blocks , vnto the soules of men & a snare for the feet of the vnwyse . for the inuentynge of ymages is the beginning of whooredom , and the fyndyng of them , the corruption of lyfe . By these woordes , wee dooe learne , that the good creatures of god , as golde , syluer and other lyke , are by the bryngyng in of images , made an abhomination before god , and that where as they be appointed , for the serue men , thei are by such means made stumbling blockes & snares vnto their soules , that I shold in the mean while speak nothing of the tilthy whooredom that vnder the pretence & color of their pilgrimages vnto this idole or the idole , hath ben committed in the worlde : which was and is a iust punishment of god for the breakyng of the spiritual wedlock wherby god hath coupled vs vnto him . Wisd. 15 In an other place of the same boke it is layed to the ymages charge , that they doo leade into errour , that the worke of them is wthout fruit , & that thy moue the myndes of the vnwyse vnto concupiscence .

Eutra .

We rede in the histories of the greekes , that a certaine image of Venus was so cunningly made , and so gorgeously trimmed , that many yong men were inflamed and set on fire with the loue of it , so that many tymes the idol was founde in the morning polluted & defyed with the sede of man . And do they not nowe a daies , where papistrye doth yet raigne , set out the ymages of their holy women , as very brothels , strompets and whores ? Again , when they see such precious , iewelles hangyng about them , are they not rather moued to couetousnesse , than to any godly deuotion . Not farre hense it happened , that a certayne goldsmithe was verye sycke , and at the poynte of deathe , A true tale his curate then came vnto hym , & broughte with hym a crosse of fine siluer being double gilted , & when he had after his maner geuen hym some exhortation , he did shew vnto him that crosse with the crucifix hangyng vpon it , saying , now , syr , I haue broughte you here your maker , your sauior , and redemer , looke vpon hym . The goldesmythe , saied nothing a great whyle , but when he had well beholden the crosse , he dyd sodeynly aske the prieste : What is the price of an ounce ? was not thys manne well edified by the syght of this goodly crosse , thinke ye ?

Philalethes .

Saint Augustine in his Epistle to one called Deogratias , writeth on this manner : Who doothe doubte , Augustine but that ydoles and ymages are without all sense or felyng ? But when they are set vp in hye & honorable places that they may be beholden of them that do eyther pray or offer : They do with the similitude and lykenesse of liuely and sensible members , although they bee bothe insensible and withoute lyfe , moue the weake myndes , so that they seme to be aliue and to haue breth . Here , we see to be attributed vnto images , that with the likenes of liuely members , they do moue weake heartes . And that therfore they are perillously set forthe vnto them , whose bokes they are thought for to be , and specially , yf they be put in high & honorable places , where praier & the commune exercises of religion are vsed Secondly , the images haue alwayes this harm annexed vnto them : they do with drawe and plucke away the hearts and myndes of men , from the earnest beholding of the maiesty of god , shining most brightly in his liuing creatures , which are always , and euery where sene with the eye , whereas ymages are the deade workes not of god , but of mortall men , and are not to be sene euery where , but are kept in corners and secrete places . They that gaue after ymages , are not moued with the liuelye worke of God , made to set forth his glory , but they are moued with the dead worke of a mortal man , whyche dothe onelye commende and f●tte foorth the vayne and vnprofitable science and c●nnyng of the worde man . We see a lyuing man , and we doe neuer a whitte the more remember the commune Creator of vs all , nor yet bee moued to celebrate , and set forth his diuine maiestye . But lette the ymage of a dead man be sene , by and by the mynde is moued with I cannot tel what , deuotion or rather superstition . The heauens do set forth the glory of god , and the firmament the workes of hys hands , saith the prophete Dauid . But how deafe , blynd & vnsensible , are the worshippers of ymages , vnto those workes of God ? The wyseman sayeth not : go vnto thys ymage or that ymage , Proue . 6. O sluggard , but go vnto the Pismyre , and beholde her waies and be wyse . For , she hauyng no guyde , gouernour nor ruler , prepareth her meat in the sommer , and gathereth her foode in harueste . There is more to be learned at one of the smallest creatures of God , A notable history of Antony . than at all the ymages and ydoles of the worlde . Lucca . We reade that Antony the holy Hermite , who liued in wildernesse , beynge so farre vnlearned that he could not reade , was ones asked of a frend , how he passed the time away , sith he lyued alone and hadde no bookes : Yeas said Antony , I wante no bookes . For , al the creatures of god are my bookes . I reade and learne his maiestly out of his creatures , as ye doo out of your bookes . And truly thei are goodly bookes to looke on , and to beholde , Al the creatures of god may be the bookes of the lay people . I meane the sunne , the Moone , the stars , byrdes , fishes , beastes , herbes , corn and grasse , trees , hylles , ryuers . And verely he is worse than a brute beaste , that can looke at all these thinges , and not loue , praise & wonder at his strength power , wisedome , and goodnesse , whyche hath made all these thinges to serue vs . The heauenlye lightes doo keepe so good an order , and course intheir mouynge the vertue of herbes , is suche to cure and heale diseases , and all fysshes , foules , and beastes do fede and serue man whiche thynges doo come from him , who is LORDE of nature .

ALBION .

I confesse and graunte that these maye better bee called laye mennes and the vnlearned peoples bookes , thanne ymages and ydoles , whyche bee lyke vnto whom soeuer it pleaseth the painter to make theym lyke .

PHI.

The thyrd harme that the ymages do bryng , is this : Those thinges , that shoulde bee bestowed vppon the liuynge ymages of god , I meane vpon the poore and n●●y , the same is bestowed vppon deade and dumme ymages . Scarcelye one halfepeny is geuen to Christ , beyng an hungerd in his poore lymmes : but men can will fynd in their hartes to geue whole hundreths of crounes , towardes the setting vp and trimmyng of images .

DYDIMVS .

Oh preposterous deuotion . I knowe a churche , where the roode and roode lofte , did coste eleuen score poundes .

Philalethes .

But yf they had bestowed but halfe that money vppon the poore of their parishe in the time of the great dearth , that was then or there about : they wold haue thought them selues vndoone . Lette them reade Clemens fyft booke , which they say , he didde write to Iames the brother of the lord . Yf ye will ( saith he ) worship truely the ymage of the lord ( we shewe that vnto you , How we may ho●● the ymage of god a right . which is true ) do good vnto man , which is made after the ymage of God , honour and reuerence hym , feede hym , whenne he is an hungered , geue hym drynke when he is a thyrste , clothe hym being naked , harboure him , beyng harbourlesse , visite him , whenne he is sicke a●●n prison , and minister vnto hym th●●e thynges that he hath neede of . It foloweth : what honoring of god is this to runne agaddyng , to wooden and stonye ymages , and to worship insensible and lyuelesse ydoles , and in the meane whyle to dispise man , in whome is the image of god ? Vnderstand therfore that this is the persuasion of the serpent , that lyeth hidde within , who persuadeth you that ye shall seeme godlye , when ye doo honour and worship vnsensible idoles , and that ye shall not seeme vngodlye , when ye hurte the sensible and reasonable creatures .

Eutr .

Who hearing and markyng all these thinges , and waying the harmes that come by images would not be at defyaunce with them ? Euerye man I trowe . But yet , this is not all .

For what hurt and losse hath all Christendome receaued by the occasion of ymages ? For , as the ymages , whyche Salomon didde in his olde age , erecte and sette vppe , were the cause of the schisme and deuision that was after his deathe in Israell , I meane , that at one clap , Images causes of diuision in the common welthe of Israell , and also in the empire . whole ten tribes didde fall away from the house of Dauid , and did chose vnto theimselues a kyng , Hieroboam the Ephraimite , who settynge vp the golden calues in Dan and Bethel , caused all Israell to committe moste detestable ydolatrie , wherof vtter destruction of bothe the realmes did ensue and folowe : so the contention that dyd ryse about images betwixt the east and west churches , and the damnable stoutenesse of the byshop of Rome with his adherentes in mainteinyng and defendyng not onely the ymages , but also the ydolatrous woorshyppyng of theym dydde breede a very hurtefull diuysion in the Empire , whereby all Christendome was wonderfully weakened . For , after that Rauenna with rest of Italye , and all Fraunce with Germanie , were by the subtile and wylye meanes of the byshoppe of Rome , reuolted and fallen away from the Emperor of Constantinople . The Sarasens and Mahometistes did ware wonderfully strong , and at lengthe didde meruaylously preuayle . For , they subdewed myghtye peoples , Realmes , & Cities , defacyng and puttynge downe euery where the trewe religion of Christe , The mischiefe that the contention aboute the ymage● did breede and settyng vppe the Mahometishe religion . This was the goodly fruite , of the settynge vppe of ymages , of the mainteynyng of the ydolatrous woorshyppynge of theym , and of the contention that dyd ryse aboute thym , whyles the one dyd affirme , accordynge to the scriptures , that ymages ought in no wyse to bee hadde , and the other agaynste the expresse worde of God and commaundement , that they ought not onely to bee hadde , but also to bee woorshypped : whereof such an enuye and hatered dydde ryse betwyxte theym , that they woulde in no wyse healpe , ayde and succoure one an other agaynst the commune enemie , beyng in this poynt mooste lyke vnto Iuda and Israell , whyche after their dyuision , whyche chaunced by reason of Idolles , neuer loued or trusted one an other , seekyng the frendshyppe and amitie of forayne kynges and princes , nowe of the Assyrians , nowe of the Babylonians , now otherwhyles of the Egyptians , that so they myghte the sooner destroye one an other : till at length by the righteous iudgemente of God , they were bothe delyuered vp into the handes of theyr ennemyes .

Dydimus .

I woulde fayn heare the whole hystorie , if it were not tedious vnto you .

EVTRAPELVS .

The hystorie is very long , and therefore I wyll hereafter sende it vnto you by writyng .

Dydimus .

I holde my selfe well contente with it , and specially sythe that bothe oure brother Philalethes , and you , haue so welle satisfied our mindes in this matter .

Albion .

In deede I was neuer better satisfied in this poynt thatn I am now , I thanke God moste hartily for it . Fyrst and formost we haue learned , that God onely oughte to bee called vppon , and prayed vnto : ●he conclu●on of the ●hole boke And that therefore they that in theyr necessities doo by prayer flye vnto dead creatures , do robbe God of his glorie , and doo commytte moste damnable sacriledge . Whyche thynge was sufficientely proued by manyfest textes of the scriptures , and by strong authorities of the ancient fathers of the primitiue Churches all the obiections that the aduersaries can make , beyng mightily aunswered and confuted . Secondly , ye haue playnely shewed vnto vs , that we ought to acknowledge none other mediatour betwixt god & man but oure Sauiour Iesus Christe onelye , whome the Scriptures doo appoyncte vnto vs , for the omnisufficient sauiour of mankynde , and for our onely intercessoure , aduocate , and mediatour , makyng no mention at all , of the intercession or mediation of the deade Sainctes , whiche thyng the Holy ghoste woulde not haue omitted , yf the dead Sainctes , or the Saintes departed out of this world hadde been eyther appoyncted or allowed of god to be intercessors vnto hym for vs . The textes of the scriptures , and the authorities of the ancient writers by you alleadged , are so many , are so myghtie & stronge , that the enemies of the truth may be ashamed to maintain styll theyr grosse and idolatrous opinion . Thirdely , it hathe been declared , that as the sayntes , that bee already in glorie with God oughte not to bee called vpon , nor to be taken for oure mediatours , so no godly honour ought to be geuen vnto them , forasmuche as it is a seruice , whyche is due onely vnto God . Where , ye hadde an occasion to shewe howe many ways , the trewe and faythfull seruauntes of God , beynge departed hence in the faith of his sonne Iesu Christe , maye bee honoured , and that the greatest honour that we canne do vnto them , is to obey their godly and sounde doctrine , wherby they haue instructed vs in the trewe relygyon and worshipping of the true onelye god , and also to folowe their faith and other heauenly vertues , wherby they did gloryfie God , whiles they lyued here in this worlde . This also was doone by the infallible worde of God , and testimonies of the holy Doctors of the true Catholike church , all the obiections of the aduersaries beyng quite ouerthrowen by the same . Laste of all , ye haue proued , that no fygure , ymage , or lykenesse of God , nor of his sonne Iesu Christe , nor of the Holy ghoste , nor yet of the saintes , oughte to bee hadde in the house of prayer , or in any other place , where so euer there is any perille of idolatrie .

And that there can be no vse of theym , in the Oratories or prayeng places of the Christians , but rather that they doo moste hurte , where soeuer they be vsed and kepte . Ye haue shewed by the waye , what is the true Crosse , that we ought to delyte and haue a pleasure in , and that as for the materiall crosses they doo more hurt than good , and that therfore for auoiding of offences , they ought to be taken away . These thynges haue beene so substantiallye done , that I holde my selfe satisfyed in all poyntes , and I do geue God moste hartye thankes , that wee haue so well spent this day .

Dydimus .

In dede this day was frutefully spent . Laude and praise be vnto god therfore for euer and euer .

EVTRAPE .

Amen .

FINIS .