Acts of the dispute and conference holden at Paris, in the moneths of Iuly and August. 1566. Betweene two doctors of Sorbon, and two ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent tract, wherein the learned may take pleasure, and the ignorant reape knowledge. Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne, and diuided according to the daies.

The sixt dayes Dispute on Tuesday , the 16. of Iuly .

THe Doctors obiect , that they haue made such an argument , God cannot cause one body to be in two places . God is not therfore Omnipotent . That this consequence is necessarie it is most manifest : without other proofe , by the lawe of contradiction . For according to the rule holden in all schooles of Philosophie , two contradictions cannot be true : To haue power to do all things , and to haue no power in certain particular things , be contradictions . For this particular thing , is a part of all . If then the Antecedent be true , of necessitie the consequence must be false , according to the lawe of contradiction : for they two as contradictories cannot be true together . And notwithstanding , albeit that by the knowledge of the termes themselues , a man might iudge the consequence to be good : neuerthelesse , it is plainly knowne by the deduction of the obiection against the answere of the Ministers , that the Doctors haue proued the consequence . The reason of the Ministers was thus : God cannot lye : hee cannot sinne : hee cannot cause that things made , be not made . Therfore it either repugneth his nature , or there is repugnancie on the behalf of the creatures : bicause there is a folded contradiction . Now the Doctors in their obiection haue said , that there is nothing like in the question proposed : that is to say , whether one bodie may be in two places . Whervpon they make such an argument , taken from their obiection , God can do all things which are not repugnant to his nature , or where there is no repugnancie in the behalfe of things created : and that no contradiction is therin implyed . But to affirme one body , may be in two places , at one selfe-same instant , is not a thing repugnant to the nature of God , and on the behalfe of the body , implyeth no contradiction : God therefore can do it . Or else thus . God cannot do it : It followeth therefore , that God is not Omnipotent . And so is proposed the reason and deduction of the antecedent and consequent . Yea and the proofe of the assumption or second proposition : For they haue proued there is no contradiction in saying that one body might be in two places ; and that it doth not repugne the nature of GOD , whereof the probation hath bene made , by example of like things . As God can cause two bodies to be in one place , and other like reasons deducted in the Obiection .

And where the Doctors ( say they ) preposterously argue from a particular to a generall , It seemeth ( vnder correction ) they haue forgotten the rules of Lodgicke . For very certaine it is , that this rule hath place in affirming , and not in denying . But contrariwise , when there is some thing affirmed in generall , and the default in particular proued , ( as say Logitians ) Ad negationem particularis , sequitur negatio eius quod vniuersaliter affirmatuum est . Likewise when there is some of a whole thing which hath many parts affirmed : and default is proued in one part , the destruction of the whole followeth . As if one should say : All the bodie is sound . Hee that should proue one part of the bodie diseased , should proue this proposition [ All the bodie is sound ] to be false .

Such is the argument which the Doctors haue made ( to wit ) : If God cannot do one particular thing ( as to cause one bodie to be in two places ) then he cannot do all things . Or if he can do all things , he can do that also .

They are agrieued to be sent backe to their Logicke . For they regarded no other ende , but to make the antecent to be graunted : to wit , that God cannot make one bodie to be in two places . And are verie glad , to haue vnderstood the resolution of the Ministers vpon this Article : that is to say , That God cannot cause , nor will one bodie to bee in two places : for as much as it implyeth contradiction . And where the Ministers doo say , that the Doctors by their reasons , could not thereof inferre the truth of the antecedent : The Doctors confesse the same . And thereby doo the Ministers also sufficiently perceiue , that the reasons they haue brought , are nothing worth to the confirmation of the antecedent , which is their resolution . But the Doctors say : that these reasons , albeit they be nought , were to this end neuerthelesse produced by the Ministers , to proue , that it was impossible to God , to make one bodie to be in two places .

Concerning this Article , which beginneth [ Touching that which they say that the authorities , &c. ] The Doctors obiect that the auncient Fathers neuer thought to make exception of any thing , which is not subiect to the power of God . For ( as it is manifest ) hee that saith all , excepteth nothing . Therefore , when the Scripture saith , that God is almightie , it giueth sufficiently to vnderstand , that there is no exception . And to giue exception therein , should be to contradict to many places of the word of God , and to blaspheme against his power . But well say the Doctors , that the Fathers haue interpreted the Omnipoteucie of God : not to comprehend that which toucheth the perfection of his nature , but that only which concerneth the Creatures : So that there were not on their part too apparant contradiction , and repugnancie .

Now the present question importeth not , that there is contradiction for a bodie to be a bodie , and in diuers places at one selfe-same instant . For concerning the essence of bodies , in speaking of a bodie hauing it dimensions , as speake the Philosophers , De praedicamento quantitatis : Certaine it is , that the dimensions are of the essence of a bodie ; but to be circumscript and inclosed in a place , that is an accident . Which thing is shewed by Philosophie it selfe : For the most high heauen , according to all , is a bodie , and neuerthelesse is it not in place according to it all . Therefore is it not an essentiall thing , for a bodie to be enclosed in one place .

And to speake of the present matter , the Ministers should be very much troubled to prooue , that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in one place in heauen : seeing it is written in the 4. Chapter to the Ephesians , he is mounted aboue all the heauens : out of which , there is no place , as they speak of places , in regard of bodies , according to nature . And were it so , that it should be essential to a body , to be in one place ( according to the rule which the Ministers deliuer ) an other blasphemy would follow against the Omniporencie of God , that God could not make a body , and place the same aboue all heauens . And to speake more vniuersally , that God could not make a bodie without place , and roomth equall to it greatnes .

Touching the Allegations proposed by the Ministers , of certaine auncient Authors , The Doctors do obiect , that the said Allegations are against themselues : For as much as to be inclosed in a place , doth not depend of the essence of a bodie , nor of it measures : as appeareth by the authorities produced , wherein there is mention made of Angels , which haue not bodies . It is not therefore an essentiall reason for the demensions of a body to be contained in a place . And all this furniture of authorities maketh nothing to the purpose : For they tend but to shewe , that the naturall proprietie of creatures , is different from the diuine nature , as S. Basil saith expresly in the place by the Ministers alledged . And S. Ambrose in his first booke of the holy Ghost , Cap. 7. where the same Authors doo declare , that God by his nature may be euery where : and the creatures by their natures , not so . But the said Authors pretend not , that God by his Omnipotencie cannot make one body to be in diuers places : For the same Authors ( or their like ) when they come to speak of the power of God in the holy Sacrament , they affirme , that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in heauen , and in the holy Sacrament . And affirme , that the Angels and spirits of the blessed , may by the same power , be in many places . As the Doctors will shew in their resolution .

Where the Ministers say , that a body must be circumscript without place , according to the essentiall proprietie : that hath bene formerly shewed to be false . And the Ministers do confound the name of body : which sometimes doth signifie substance , sometimes quantitie , hauing it dimensions , breadth , length , and deepnesse : which dimensions be essentiall in a body , taking the body for a kinde of quantitie : and not in a substantiall body : for it is an accident . Now certaine it is , that God can seperate the accidents from a body , and make a substance without accidents : otherwise there would follow an other blasphemie : that God could not seperate the accident , from a subiect and substance . And where the Ministers say , that a stone by a violent mouing , may bee cast on high , that is no answere to the question . For the Doctors doo demaund ( for as much as it is essentiall and naturall to a massy and terrestriall body , in regard of the massinesse and waight thereof tending downeward ) whether God by his onely power , contrary to the naturall proprietie of a massy and waightie body , cannot hold and hang it vp on high ?

And as touching the euasion which the Ministers make from a very strong and mightie argument against their doctrine , that two bodies may be in one place , by the proofe that is made , taken from the scripture , ( not onely to proue that God can cause two bodies to be in one place , but euen that he hath done it ) serueth nothing to couer their error , in saying that it is not said in S. Iohn , that our Lord did enter by Ioh. 20. 19. the shut doores : but that he was found standing in the midst of them : where the said Ministers haue concealed and omitted this verbe venit : and do stay onely vpon the verbe stetit . For the expresse text in S. Iohn . cap. 21. 19. saieth : That the doores being shut , Iesus came into the place where the Disciples were assembled , and was there in the middest of them . They demaund of them , for as much as the scripture saith , that he came thither , the doores beeing shut , and that hee was found in the middest of them : whether hee were found in the middest of them , and in the said place , without entring thereinto : or whether hee there entered , for as much as the text saith ; that the doores were shut when he came ; How they will proue by the scripture that he entred , if not by the shut doores ? For a much greater myracle should it be , to be found in the middest of his Disciples , without being entred into the place where they were . Too light is that shift , to say it is not written that he entred . For S. Augustine in his booke De agone Christiano , cap. 24. saieth thus . Nec nos moueat quod clausis hostijs subitò eum apparuisse Dicipulis scriptum est : vt propterea negemus illud fuisse corpus humanum , quia contra naturam huius corporis videmus illudper clausa hostia intrare . Omnia enim possibilia sunt Deo , Nam & ambulare super aquas contra naturam huius corporis esse manifestum est , & tamen non solum ipse Dominus ante passionem ambulauit , sed etiam Petrum ambulare fecit . Let it not moue vs , because it is written , that the doores being shut , he suddenly appeared to his Disciples ; that we therefore denie that body to haue bene humane , because wee see it against the nature of this body , to enter by the closed doores . For to God are all things possible . For to walke also vpon the waters , is manifestly against the nature of this body : And yet the Lord himselfe not onely walked before his passion , but also caused Peter to walke .

Where it appeareth , that S. Augustine saith plainly , that our Lord did enter by the shut doores : and referreth all to the omnipotencie of God .

Moreouer , the text of S. Luke , ioyned with that of Saint Iohn , doth shewe that he entred through the doores . For no reasonable occasion had the Apostles had , to thinke it was a spirit , and not a body , seeeing him before them in the likenesse of a man : but for that he was entred otherwise then a true body , and very man could enter . That is , for that he was entred by the closed doores : which thing a true man , and a true body in no wise can doo . To say that the doores were opened , and afterwards shut again by myracle , or otherwise , should nothing auaile . For so may a true man , and a true body be there : and therefore no cause can a man haue to think it a spirit , or vaine vision .

The Doctors say moreouer , that all the auncient heretikes and Christians , did commonly agree , that Iesus Christ passed through : but such was their difference , as now it is between the Ministers & Doctors . The auncient heretikes said , that Iesus Christ after his resurrection , had not a true body , because he did workes contrary to the nature of a body , which implied contradiction to a naturall body : to wit , that at one selfe instant , he was in one selfe-same place with an other body : as when he passed through the doores . The auncient Catholike Christians answered , that such indeed was the nature of a body , that it could not passe through the doores : through the body of the virgin in his birth , without fracture : through the stone of the Sepulchre in it resurrection : but neuerthelesse , that two bodies should be together , by the omnipotencie of God , implied no contradiction : for as much as it so hapned in the three cases done and recited .

The first that speaketh therof , is Iustine Martir , in the 117. question against the Gentiles : where hee saith . If a thicke body be hindred to passe through the doores , how did our Lord after his resurrection enter the shut doores ? And if it bee so , why was the stone remoued by the Angell from off the Sepulchre , to the end his body might rise againe ? He answereth thus . That euen as our Lord without changing his body into a spirit , walked vpon the sea ▪ but by his diuine power he made the sea solide to walke vpon ; not onely for his owne body , but for that of S. Peter . So by his diuine power he came forth of the sepulchre , the stone remaining thervpon , and entered to his Disciples , the doores beeing shut . Hereby we vnderstand , that the things which proceed of diuers vertues , ought to haue the same faith . And we must know , that the things which surpasse nature , when they are wrought in it by diuine power , ought not to be measured according to the reason & proprietie of nature . For this cause , our Lord seeing his Disciples troubled at such an entry , did propose vnto them the parts of his body , and the places and markes of his wounds , to be touched , to shew he was not entred by change of his body into a spirite : but with his body composed of it dimensions and thicknesse : and by his diuine almightinesse , which made all things that surpasse the strength of nature .

Saint Hillary in his third booke of the Trinitie : But thou ( saith hee ) which wilt search into the things insearchable , and wil● be Iudge of the secrets of God ▪ and his power : I aske counsell of thee , giue onely a reason and solution of this fact , to mee that 〈◊〉 and do simply beleeue in God concerning all things , euen as hee hath said and pronounced them ? I vnderstand that the Lord was often present after his resurrectio● to he seene and knowne of them which beleeued him not . The self-same Lord , applying himselfe to the weaknesse of out vnderstanding , and to satisfie the doubts of the 〈◊〉 doth shewe a secret and a worke of his almightinesse ▪ Expound to me the● , whosoeuer thou art , which wilt beeade archer of the omnipotencie of God , the reason of this dee●●t The Disciples being shut vp and withdrawne together in secret , the Lord is proposed to Thomas , to confirme his faith , according to the conditions he desired : to wit , that he might touch his body , and proue his wounds , And for this cau●ent behoued him to bring the true body with him , wherein he had receiued such wounds . I demaund then , for as much as he was corporall , by what part of the house entred hee in ? For I see that the Eu●ngelist diligently expresseth , that Iesus came when the doores were shut , and was found in the middest of his Disciples : to wit , whether he pierced the thicke walles , and the great lettes of timber betweene both ? Certaine it is , that without fiction or guile hee there entered . Let thy conceit followe and consider his entrie , and thy vnderstanding enter into the house shut within . All thou seest , is whole and fast locked ; and yet is l●ee found in the middest of his Disciples : but it is , because all things by his almightinesse are open to him . Thou slaunderest things inuisible . I aske thee againe the reason of this thing there visible ? Nothing of the wall or solide doores gaue backe , or made way . Contrariwise I see that wood and stones by their nature cannot receiue such an entrie .

The body of our Lord was not quite vanished , to bee eftsoones taken and made of nothing . Whence then commeth it , that he is found in the middest of them without opening ? Sence and speech do herein faile , and the truth of the deed , is beyond humane reason . As then we are abused , concerning the birth of the sonne of God , we lye also concerning such an entry . The deed is false say we , it so happened not , because we cannot vnderstand the reason thereof : and for that our sence and iudgemenr faileth , we say there is no such deed . But the faith and beliefe of the deed , doth conuince our lying . The Lord ( the doores being shut ) is found in the middest of the Apostles , and the sonne of God is borne of his Father . Denie not that hee thus entred , because by the infirmitie of thy spirit , thou canst not comprehend such an entrie .

I could amplifie like deeds in all the creatures : but the Lord hath well prouided for himselfe , to haue contained vs in necessitie and modestie , by the nature of our bodies . Sufficiently we shewe , that we would make our selues an other God , had we power so to do . For as much as wee cannot by the boldnesse of our wicked will , ruinate the nature of truth , we gainsay it at least , and contend with the word of God .

S. Ambrose in his tenth booke vpon S. Luke , cap. 24. saith , through the doores . S. Chrysostome vpon S. Iohn , proueth by such ane ntrie , that Iesus Christ was so borne of the Virgin , that she remained a Virgin in her child-birth , and after , without any manner of fraction . And concludeth , that the one and the other deed proceedeth from the omnipotencie of God . The said Chrysostome in his second Homily vpon the Apostles Creed , saith these words : How is it that Iesus Christ entred the closed doores ? &c. because such things are aboue our reach , and we cannot render a reason of that myracle , we hold it by faith .

S. Ierome in his first booke against Iouinian , and in the Epistle to Pamachiuns , against the errors of Iohn of Ierusalem , who said , that Iesus after his resurrection , had not a true body , because it was impossible that a true body should passe through the doores : and that it should be in one self-same place with an other body ) answereth : It hindereth not , but that the nature of the body remaineth , for as much as this act proceedeth from the omnipotencie of God . And thus saith : Tell me , thou subtill disputer , which is greater , to hang the huge greatnesse of the earth vpon nothing , and to ballance it aboue the bricklenesse of the waters : or for God to passe through a shut doore , & a creature to obey his Creator ? To that which is the greater thou easily agreest , and slaunderest that which is lesser . S. Augustine in his 13. Epistle , for an example of the omnipotencie of God , reciteth also this deed : to shewe that our Lord was borne of the Virgin without any rupture of her body : and to declare that the omnipotencie of God is greater then we can comprehend . Againct the Valentinians and others , which denied the true substance of the body of Iesus Christ , for that contrary to the nature of a body , he so passed . S. Augustine in his booke called De agone Christiano , alledgeth the same deed . Amphilochius and Theodoret in the 2. Dialogue , disputing of this deed against Eutiches , who said also , that after the resurrection , the humanitie of Iesus Christ was changed into his diuinitie : because , contrary to the nature of a body , he so passed through the shut doores , do answere as the others . That such an effect importeth not contradiction to the nature of a body : for as much as it proceeded of the omnipotencie of God , and not of the nature of the body . Cirell in his 12. booke vpon S. Iohn , reprehendeth those also which will measure the myracles and works of God according to their owne iudgement , and the proprietie of creatures : and very sharply speaketh against them . S. Augustine in his first booke against Iulian , cap. 2. recyteth , That Iouinian was an heretike , because he said , that there was fraction in the virgin in her childbirth . And so said he , for feare of falling into the heresie of the Manachees , who thought that Iesus Christ had not a true body , because he was borne without fraction of his mother . To auoyd then this heresie , hee rather denied that the ●rgin remained a Virgin . The like heresie is imputed to Origen , and some also alledge that the Fathers ( as Tertullian ) had such an opinion . By these testimonies do the Doctors conclude , that two bodies to pierce themselues , and be in one self-same place , by diuine power doth not imply any contradiction . Which places were they wel considered , they would not receiue a new interpretation against the very expresse word of God : seeing the text without contradiction doth beare that Iesus Christ came to his Disciples , the doores being shut .

The 4. booke . cap. 17. sect. 39 How Caluin in his Institution hath deptaued the sence of that place of S. Iohn , with other like , may plainly appeare , where he saith thus . That which they eftsoones alledge , that Iesus Christ came out of the Sepulchre without opening the same , and that hee entred in to his Disciples the doores of the chamber beeing shut , is of no value , further to maintaine their error . For as the water serued Iesus Christ for a firme pauement , to walke vpon the lake : so also ought it not seeme straunge , if the hardnesse of the stone were softned to giue him passage . And Beza in his second Dialogue against Heshusius saith , that the stone was vanished , to the end that our Lord might passe in his resurrection : and God did afterwards reforme it . It followeth in the text of Caluin : As also to enter into a chamber the doores shut , is not to say that hee pierced the wood , but onely that he made an opening by his diuine power : so that by a myraculous fashion , he was found in the middest of his Disciples , although the doores were were shut . Moreouer he saith : That which they bring of S. Luke : to wit , that hee vanished suddenly from his Disciples which went to Emaus , serueth nought for them , and maketh for our aduantage . For he was not made inuisible by taking away the sight of his body : but he onely vanished . As also witnesseth the same Euangelist : In walking he was not transfigured nor disguised , to be made inuisible , but their eyes were holden . Such ridiculous and friuolous expositions are brought by Caluin and his like , to auoyd confessing , that God can make one body to be in diuers places .

And neuerthelesse , the proper text of the scripture doth witnesse that two bodies may be by the power of God , in one selfesame place . As also it witnesseth that a body hauing colour , and before visible , by the power of God , was made inuisible , without any let to their sight that could see . As S. Luke doth confirme , saying : Aphantos Egeneto Ap'auton , Inuisibilis factus est ab ipsis . Although there was no defect on the behalfe of the Disciples . For it is said before , that their eyes were opened , that they might know him : and herevpon agreeth all antiquitie . An other act do the Doctors adde , for confirmation of the penitration of dimensions . Which is , that our Lord ascended into the heauens , which he neither diuided , nor claue asunder . Therefore of necessitie did hee pierce them : as the scripture it selfe in proper termes importeth .

The Doctors shewe also to the said Ministers , that they cannot produce one only renowned Father , hauing expounded these places , from whom they might learne their so diuers interpretations . And that which they bring of the Acts of the Apostles , where mention is made , that S. Peter came forth of prison , nought serueth to colour their exposition . In which text , there is nothing spoken of the opening of the prison doores . And it is not said ( as in S. Iohn ) that the doores of the prison being shut , S. Peter came forth : but that the Angell came thither , when the keepers before the doore kept the prison . Where if they say , that the doores were opened to S. Peter , that agreeth not with the saying of Saint Iohn , that the doores were shut when as our Lord entered . The like reason brought by the Ministers out of the fift of the Acts of the Apostles , and for the same cause , is as vnprofitable for this purpose , as the former .

And to shewe clearely and euidently , that God ( contrary to the naturall proprietie of a body ) can make a great and thicke body to passe in a space and place vnequall to it greatnesse , largenesse , and thicknesse . The Doctors cyted what our Lord saith in the 19. of S. Mathew : It is easier for a Cable to goe through the eye of a needle , then for a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen .

Two things haue the Ministers answered vnto : the one , that in the translation wee must not vse Cable , but rather Camel : although neuertheles their own French Bible of Anthony Rebulls impression , which they haue brought , containeth the translation of this word Cable . And Caluin himself likewise in his Hermony of the foure Euangelists , saith that to bee better . But here in appeareth to be truth what Tertullian against the Valentinians ; and before him , Ireneus in his first booke and 14. Chapter against the Valentinians doo say : That they which seperate themselues from vs to go to an other schoole , do alwaies inuent some new thing , that the disciples may bee found more cunning then their Maisters . But well , this word [ Camell ] beeing yeelded vnto them , ( as the Doctors doubt not to haue bene expounded by Saint Hillary , S. Ierom , and others ) the reason thereof is yet more strong . For it is yet more repugnant that a crooked , grosse , and great Camell ( then a Cable ) should enter through the eye of a needle . The other reason giuen by the Ministers is , that God cannot make a Camel or Cable to enter throgh the eye of a needle : which is notwithstanding , against the pure word of Iesus Christ , who saith not , it is is impossible to God , but rather easie to do that , and by comparison , more easie vnto God , then to make a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen : which neuerthelesse is said by our Lord to be possible : not vnto men , but vnto God : to whom there is nothing vnpossible . Whervpon the Doctors say thus , If God can do that which is more difficult , he can doo that which is more easie . Now by the text of the scripture , it is said that God can make a rich man enter into the kingdome of heauen , which is the more difficult ; he can therfore make a Camell ( or Cable ) to enter through the eye of a needle , which is more easie .

The answeres of the Ministers here aboue confuted , tend to such absurdities and blasphemies , that Iesus Christ by his almightinesse , could not enter through the closed doores : that hee could not come forth of the belly of his mother , through her body without fraction : that he could not make a visible body , to be inuisible : that a grosse and great body might be in a place vnequall to it : that hee could not by his diuine power make penetration of dimensions : and that he could not make by the same diuine power , one body to bee in two places ( for it is like reason , of the last article and of the others ) albeit such things are declared in the scriptures , not onely to be possible , but euen the most part of them to haue bene done . And the Doctors do wonder how the Ministers dare denie such things , seeing themselues must necessarily confesse ( if their doctrine of the Supper be true ) that the body of Iesus Christ is in diuers places : which they proue thus . The faithfull really receiue in their soules the substance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ , by the working of the holy Ghost , and not the bread and the wine onely : or else ( as saith Caluin in the 4 booke , 17. Chapter , and 11. section of his Institution ) the effect and vertue of the same Sacrament .

Now the Doctors conclude thus . It is impossible for a man to receiue into him the substance of the body of Iesus Christ , but the body of Iesus Christ is in him . But all the faithfull in the Supper do receiue the same into their soules , therefore must the body of Iesus Christ be in them : and by consequent in diuers places : to wit , in all places where their Supper is made : and likewise in heauen . They say further , that Caluin in his Institution , the fourtth booke , 17. Chapter , and 24. sect. saith : That in the Supper , the power of God is required : to the ende that the flesh of Iesus Christ may pierce euen vnto vs : and that humane nature cannot comprehend the same . But it behoueth that the power of God doo worke therein . And by this meane , Caluin doth admit by the power of God , the flesh of Iesus Christ in many places : to wit , in heauen , and in vs , into whom it must pierce by the power of God . And in the tenth number he saith : That the truth signified , and represented by the signes , must bee represented and exhibited in the same place where the signes be . Which hee proueth by reason in many places : to wit , that the signes must no more bee voyd , then the Doue was voyd of the holy Ghost . But as the essence and substance of the holy Ghost was conioyned and present with the Doue : so the flesh and bloud of our Lord , before there be a true Sacrament , must be conioyned and vnited with the signes . The passages are against Heshusius , and in his booke of the Supper : and vpon the first of the 11. Chapter to the Corinthians . And although the Ministers will answere : the Doctors beseech them well to weigh and consider the text of Caluin , and of the reason he giueth of the holy Ghost . They doo obiect further , that the Ministers in their Supper doo attribute more to the humane power , then to the omnipotencie of God : yea they do more then God can do : which is , that they brag to do a thing by their faith , which implyeth contradiction : saying in their confession of faith exhibited to the Bishops in the congregation at Poissy ; That faith maketh things absent , to be present , in one selfe-same instant and place . That is to say , in the soules of the faithfull , when they celebrate their Supper : which is as much to say , as faith maketh things not present , present at one selfe-same instant and place . So that to euery faithfull in the Supper , comming worthily therevnto , is the body of Iesus Christ there present by the power of faith . And neuerthelesse it is not there present ; for they say so : and that it is onely in heauen . Wherein appeareth that there is implication of contradiction : to wit , present , & not really present . And the small starting hole they told vs of , that the body is aboue corporally , and spiritually in the Supper in the harts of the faithfull , can serue for nothing . For the spiritualtie cannot take away the substance of the thing : and their faith cannot make a body , not to be a body : and that a body haue not it dimensions , as heretofore they haue said .

Therefore howsoeuer they confesse , that the faithfull in the Supper receiue into their soules the substance of the body of Iesus Christ , will they or nill they , must they necessarily confesse , that either their faith is more mightie then the infinite vertue and power of God : or else that God can make his body to be locally in heauen ; and Sacramentally ( really neuerthelesse and substantially ) in the Sacrament of the Aultar . Thus would the Doctors desire to heare the Ministers vpon this point : and then afterwards to put their answere in writing . And the Ministers shall neuer be able to shewe by the word of God , that their faith can make at one instant , and one selfe-same place , a thing to be present , and not present . And one thing present , and not present by faith : is as much to say , as that the body of Iesus Christ is in , and not in a faithfull person . And no Coduit pipe of the power of the holy Ghost should there also be needfull , to conuey the flesh of Iesus Christ hither vnto vs from heauen , were not the said flesh but in heauen , and notwithstanding came vnto vs .

And as touching the points obiected by the Doctors , that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza were the first which said , that God could not make one body to bee in two places : and the Ministers haue willed to confirme by antiquitie this new doctrine , which they cannot name otherwise then blasphemie . The Doctors say , they haue often prayed the Ministers ( that time might be spared , things better cleared ) to speake nothing from the purpose . Notwithstanding they bring forthwith the testimonies of Fathers , to shewe that a body by nature is circumscript , and cannot be naturally in many places : but those Authors say not that God cannot do it . But S. Augustine , and others , in the places cyted by the Doctors , touching the article of the closed doores , do rather witnesse , that two bodies by the power of God , may occupie one selfe-same place , which is of like difficultie . And when they shall come to the proofe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ , they will euidently shewe , that wholly all the auncient Fathers which haue spoken of that Sacrament , haue not onely confessed that hee could make his body to bee aboue in heauen , and here belowe in the Sacrament : but all with one accord , haue declared that they beleeue according to the word of Iesus Christ , that he is in heauen , and here in the Sacrament . The Doctors demaund of the Ministers , whether they haue any , that before Peter Martyr and Theodor Beza , denied such power of God . And let them no more set foorth the authorities of the Fathers , to prooue that one body is not naturally in two places . The Doctors doo not maruell if the Ministers do magnifie Peter Martyr , from whom they haue taken all the places they haue brought .

Concerning the Article which beginneth ( Touching that which the Doctors pretend , that the forme &c. ) The Doctors say , that this forme is common , as often as men will debate of the power of God . And they cannot be better guided to proue it , then to follow the words of the Angel : That there is nothing impossible to God . From the which , when a man will except something , hee will alwaies bring , what the Ministers do bring : that there is some repugnancy of things , whereof ensueth some implication of contradiction . As did the olde heretiques against the flesh of Iesus Christ ; who brought alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature . And as much did they against the Article of the Resurrection , and incarnation : as though there had bene contradiction , that God should be man , and man should be God . And it shall be alwayes easie for an euil spirit , to forge some contradiction in his conceit , according to the proprieties of nature . And concerning the Article beginning ( As touching that which the Doctors do adde , that God can change , &c. ) The Doctors say , that the Ministers haue not wel conceiued their meaning : for they take for an absurd thing , that a substance remaining affected of his qualities , can by the power of God haue effects , contrary to his qualities . As if God by his omnipotencie could not make the fire , hauing his naturall heate , to coole , in stead of burning , which none of sound and Christian iudgement will deny .

Concerning the Article beginning ( Touching the limitation of the power , &c. ) The Doctors say ; that it seemeth by the Ministers answere , that the power of God is limited according to his will : as much to say , as God cannot doo but what he will : which is notoriously false . For the Hebrew alledged , the Ministers ( it seemeth ) are willing to shew they are skilfull therin . For such summoning is not to the purpose , when as they stay chiefly vpon the word Dauar : which is as much to say , as one thing . But it ought not to bee vnderstood of a thing done : they said , to be done . And such is the sence of the place ad verbum . Shall there be any thing hidden from me ? And because hard things are hidden , & things impossible also are yet more hidden ; Behold why they haue translated , Is there any thing hard ( or impossible ) to mee ▪ Which holy Pagninus , and other Interpreters of the Hebrew tongue , do wel declare , that the verbe [ Pala ] signifieth to hide . The Doctors had no desire to answer herevnto , but to make it bee vnderstood that an Hebrew word doth not appaule them . Concerning the article beginning , Touching the danger , &c. The Doctors say , that they are words superfluous ; and whatsoeuer the Ministers can bring , the same may other vse , and retort against the said Ministers . And where they say it is a slaunder , in that they obiect vnto them , that they corrupt the scripture , the Doctors say , that the Ministers cannot denie but they change the sence & glose the words of the Supper . This is my body . This is my bloud . And with like authoritie , as they ( vnder pretence of I know not what reasons ) may each one pretend to corrupt the other scriptures , & alledge some impossibilities , & contradictions of nature . As touching the article beginning , To that which they adde , that the scripture saith , that the body &c. The Doctors do say , that in time and place they will shewe what they haue obiected , when as they shall treate more amply of the Sacrament of the Aultar .

Where the Doctors haue obiected that the Ministers do not ground their affirmation ; to wit , that God cannot make one body to be in two places , vpon the expresse testimonie of the scripture : or can thereof deduct the same . The Ministers for all places haue onely brought but these : that God cannot lye : God cannot denie himselfe . But the Doctors say that this consequence is nought worth . God cannot lye : God cannot therefore make one body to be in two places : which neuerthelesse the Ministers should haue made such had the places produced serued to that purpose . Ioyned , that when it is said God cannot lye , as the Ministers themselues haue cyted , to be able to lye : is not power , but infirmitie . So that according to the true sense , it was meet so to say ; God is not weake that he can lye . Therfore God cannot make one bodie to be in two places : which consequence should be ridiculous .

And where the Ministers haue brought certaine authorities of the auncient Fathers , to proue there is diuersitie betweene the creatures , and Creator : and that the Creator by nature is euery where , and naturally the creatures be not in diuers places : the Doctors reuerently imbrace the authoritie of the holy Fathers : But to produce the said places for confirmation of a thing so well knowne , and not doubted of , their trauell was now needlesse . But the Doctors yet attend one sole place of the scripture ; or one sole testimony of the auncient Fathers , which saith : That God cannot make one body to be in diuers places . The Doctors pray the Ministers , that with like reuerence , they receiue the auncient Fathers : chiefly touching the interpretation of holy scriptures : whose exposition ( as are the places aboue cyted ) shal be agreed vpon betweene them and the Ministers .

Vpon request made to the Lord Neuers on the behalfe of the Ministers , that hee would please to assigne a day for answere , particularly to all and euery article and slaunders here aboue proposed by the Doctors in their obiection : The said Lord ordained , that the Ministers should carry with them that euening , one of the Copies of the Doctors obiections against them ; to be ready the next morrow by noone , to answer thervnto : which the Doctors agreed vnto . And made likewise request to the said Lord of Neuers , to haue leaue ( if it so seemed them good ) to reply to the answers that the Ministers should make . And therwith to deliuer their resolution , touching this article of the omnipotency of God . To th' end to proceed , and examine the reall truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar . Whervnto the Ministers added : that they also for their parts , would deliuer a briefe resolution of all that which shall be deduced by them .

The company assembled on the morrow beeing Wednesday , the 17. of Iuly , My Lord of Neuers , considering that the Doctors the day before had imployed all the time , without any left for the Ministers to make present answere to them : supposed no lesse time would be needfull for the Ministers to answerefully , which had bene a thing tedious and irksome . For this cause , and others by him declared : he ordained , they should thenceforth speake by writing . And that the Ministers should carry with them the Copie which was giuen them , to make answere therevnto : and to send it vnto him , signed by them , and two Notaries . Of which he would cause a Copie to be written by his Secretary , to giue it to the Doctors , reseruing the Originall to himselfe . And in like sort would he keepe for the Ministers the Copie of that which the Doctors should send him . Wherevnto both parts submitting themselues , they disputed afterwards by writing as followeth .

The Answere of the Ministers to the Obiections of the Doctors , giuen on Tuesday the 16. of Iuly , 1566.

THe Ministers deny , that the consequence proposed by the Doctors , ( to wit : God cannot make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant . Therfore ●e is not omnipotent ) is necessary : For as much as the omnipotency of God ought not to be measured , but by the things only , which be agreeable to his will , and are not derogate , either to his nature , or to his wisdome , or to his truth , or to the order he established in the world . Vnto which , that directly repugneth , which the Doctors set forth : that one selfe same body , at one selfe-same instant , may be in diuers places . For it would follow , that a body should be a body , without being limitted : And by consequence , that it should be , and not be , altogither . For the measures ( as to be long , large , thicke , and to be bounded & limitted with certaine bounds ) are so essentiall to a body , that without that , it is no more a body . And so farre of is it , that the Ministers in so saying , do diminish the omnipotency of God : that contrariwise they establish the same ; and will not attribute to him any mutabilitie , and chaunge in his counsaile : nor any contradiction in his will , for feare to make him lye : which by the scripture is impossible to him .

And where the Doctors alledge from the Fathers , that they haue not denied the omnipotency of God , The Ministers haue heretofore shewed , that they haue : and in what case it may happen . Tertullian in his booke written against Praxeas , speaking of this matter , saith as followeth : Surely nothing is hard vnto God . But if without iudgement we wil vse this sentence , and interpret it according to our foolish fantasie , we may faine all things to be of God : and say , that he hath done them : because he can do them . Now must it not be beleeued , because he can do all things , that therfore he hath done , what he hath not done : but enquired whether he hath done it ? And finally concludeth , that the power of God is his wil : and his inhabilitie , likewise his vnwillingnesse . The Doctors then , to shew that he can do it , should declare that God hath willed to make a body , which at one selfe-same instant hath bin in diuers places . And a maruellous thing it is , that they impute to the Ministers , that they derogate from the omnipotency of God , when as they do except from the same , what is contrary to his wil : seeing they themselues do confesse it , and except the same things . And that there is no other difference between than & the Ministers , but that they say , that God maketh one body to be in diuers places , at one selfe instant : because he can do it . And the Ministers say , that he doth it not , and cannot do it : because he wil not do it . For as much ( as is said according to Tertullian ) the power of god is his wil.

Touching the reason that the Doctors do alledge in Phisosophie , to proue , that a bodie , for being a bodie , doth not therfore leaue to be in diuers places : The Ministers say , they suppose a falshood . To wit , that quantitie is accidentall , and not essentiall to a body . For that ( to wit , that a body is measured , bounded and circumscript ) is in such sort of it essence , that without that , it is no more a bodie . As S. Augustine him selfe , speaking of the glorified body of Iesus Christ , saith : That if space be taken away from a body , there is no more place where it might be : and by consequence , being no part , is no more at all . The reaso of Philosophie they propose , touching the first heauen ; as , that it is not in any place : The Ministers do denie it : for to speake according to the language of the scripture , it must be confessed that there is place e●en Ioh. 14. aboue the heauens . As Iesus Christ said vnto his Disciples ; I go to prepare a place for you . And in the same place ; In my Fathers house there are many mansions . And else where : Ioh. 12. 26. Where I am ( taking the present time for the future ) there shal my seruants be In the which sentence must be obserued , that there be aduerbes of place . And S. Augustine writing to Dardanus , expresly saith : That it behoueth that the body of Iesus Christ be in some place in heauen , because it is a true body . Moreouer , in numbring of the errors sometimes condemned by the facultie of Paris , it is expresly said : That the heauen by them called Empyreum , is the place of Angels , of blessed spirits , and glorified humane bodies . Where the Doctors pretend , that of the doctrine ( which the Ministers maintaine , that a body cannot be without place , nor in many places at one instant ) may be inferred , that they blaspheme the omnipotencie of God . The Ministers contrariwise say , that the Doctors blaspheme his Maiestie , and diminish the same , in attributing to the creature that which appertaineth to him alone : to wit , to be vncircumscript . As it appeareth by that which Didimus saith in his booke of the holy Ghost : where he proueth , that the holy Ghost is God , & not a creature , because he is incircumscript : and that al creatures necessarily be circumscript , and limited . As much thereof also say S. Basil , and Vigilius , and the Mr. of the sentences in his first booke . Where they confesse , that the Angels and blessed spirits be circumscript , although they be not corporall . This reason is against themselues , and proper to proue what the Ministers haue here aboue maintained of bodies : to wit , that it cannot be but that they be circumscript in some place . For by an argument from the lesse to the more : If the Angels which want dimension and measure , ( by their own confession ) in as much as they be creatures , be necessarily circumscript : by a more strong reason , the bodies of men , which be creatures , and measured , shall be so likewise .

And where they adde , that the auncient Fathers haue not said , that one body by the power of God could not be in diuers places : That is contrary to the saying of S. Augustine , in his 30. tract vpon S. Iohn , which is recited De consec : distinct ▪ 2. C. Prima quidem . Where , speaking of the body of Iesus Christ , he saith : namely ; It behooueth , that the body of our Lord , wherin he rose again , be in one place : teaching therby , that at one selfe-same time , it cannot be in diuers places . And touching the reason they adde , taken from the Sacrament , to proue their assertion : the Ministers say , that the fathers neuer vnderstood , nor said , that the body of Iesus Christ was in heauen , and in the Sacrament , in one selfe same sort & maner : nor do they teach , that he was otherwise then Sacramentally in the Sacrament .

And wheras in their resolution they pretend to proue , that the Angels may at one self instant be in diuers places , when the Ministers shall haue vnderstood their reasons , then they wil answere therevnto . That which they say of a body , it being dispoiled of it dimensions , ceaseth not to be a body notwithstanding : is a very absurd thing . For did it happen , that a corporal substance were wholly dispoiled of it dimensions , it should no more be a body , but an incorporeall substance : & of like nature as the Angels & spirits . And although God by his power can seperate the dimensions of a substance , without corrupting it : yet can it not be , that they be seperated from a body , without the corruption of the same . Because the quantitie & dimensions are accidents of the substance , but not of the body : which cannot subsist without them , in as much as they be of it proper essence .

Whereas the Doctors say afterwards in their obiection , that the waight in a body , is a thing essentiall . The Ministers do deny it . And the reason is , that were it of the essence of a bodie , and the same wanting , the bodie should cease to bee : Neuerthelesse we see , that the glorified bodie of Iesus Christ , ( wherevnto the bodies of all the elect shall be like after the resurrection ) doth not leaue to be & subsist , although it be now exempted from all waight .

And as touching their alledged very strong and mightie argument : That if two bodies may be in one selfe place togither , one body , at one instant , may be also in diuers places . The Ministers not graunting the antecedent ( vnder correction ) say , that the consequence is not good : and that the argument is very weake . Adding therto , that the Doctors haue nor prooued , and neuer can prooue by the scriptures , nor by any authoritie of the auncient Fathers , nor by any sufficient reason , that which they propose in their antecedent , or the consequent which they inferre thereof to be true .

Wheras the Doctors to proue that two bodies may be together in one selfe place , alledge out of the scripture , that Iesus Christ entred into the house where his Disciples were , the doores being shut : The Ministers do answere : that it is not written , that he entred through the closed doores , but only the doores being shut : which the auncient Interpreter hath well giuen to vnderstand , expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn , ( where mention is made of that aboue said ) Cuum fores essent clausae . Then when the doores were shut , Iesus came , &c. Neuertheles the Ministers say , they verily belieue , and are assured , of that which the scripture doth clearly say , to wit , that the doores being shut , he came and stood in the midst of his Disciples . But they cannot certainly define , nor determine , which way he entered : whether it were through the walles , or doores of wood ; which Hillary himselfe maketh doubt of in that place of his writings , alledged by the Doctors . Howsoeuer it be , the Ministers do say : that in entering , he miraculously made way . And that a body ( be it the wood or wall ) did yeeld and giue place to the body of Iesus Christ entering : or that an opening was made vnto him by the Angell , which opened and afterward shut againe the doores in a moment ; as before hath b●ne said . And that howsoeuer it was done , two bodies were neuer found in one selfe same place together .

Touching that they alledge out of S. Augustine , in his booke de agone Christiano , that Iesus Christ entered through the doores : The Ministers deny not , that he entred through the doores : but that two bodies onely were neuer in one selfe same place together . But if Iesus Christ entered through the doores , that the doores at his entire gaue him place , as is said .

For that which the Doctors alledge touching the Apostles suspition , that it was a vaine vision , it nought appertaineth to the present matter ; nor that also that they maruelled at the maner of his entry , which was miraculous : as they euer confessed .

And touching that which they adde afterwards , in the opinion held by the olde heretiques , of the bodie of Iesus Christ , that it was not a true bodie : because it did things aboue nature . The Ministers doo shewe them , that they litle think what occasion and foundation of their errour , the auncient Fathers had presented vnto them , had they confessed what the Doctors haue set foorth , and doo obstinately defend of the bodie of Iesus Christ : that it doth things , not only aboue nature , but also contrary to nature : yea euen contrary to the will and ordinance of God . And there is no doubt , but such an opinion should be a great proofe for Marcion and other heretiques , which haue denied the true humanitie of Iesus Christ : if they should confesse by the Doctors example , that the body of Iesus Christ ( contrary to the truth , nature , and essence of a body ) may be , at one self-same time in diuers places : or in one selfe same place with an other body .

To that they alledge of Iustin Martir : The Ministers do answer , that the booke by them alledged , is falsly attributed to him . For it there maketh mention of Origen ( to wit in the the 82. question ) althogh that Origen was more then 100. yeares after him . And touching the opening of the Sepulchre , whereof there is mention made in the place by them produced , They answer , that the Euangelist reciteth clearly , that there was a great Earthquake , when Iesus Christ rose again ; and that the Angel did rowle away the stone , which closed the Sepulchre . Whervnto agreeth the saying of Leo , the first Bishop of Rome , writing to the Bishops of Palestine , where he saith : That Iesus Christ rose againe , the stone which couered the Sepulchre being rowled away .

Touching the place alledged by the Doctors , out of the writings of S. Hillary ; one word there is , shall serue them for an answer . To wit , that this holy Doctor expresly saith : that Iesus Christ ( to whom all things are open ( as the Doctors haue expounded the said sentence ) or ( as the Ministers expound it , that he maketh way euery where , by his diuine power ) entred , the doores being shut . For thereby also he giueth to vnderstand , that to enter into the house where his Disciples were , he made himselfe way & opening . And by his writing can nought else be concluded , but that his entry was myraculous . Concerning that which the Doctors alledge of S. Ambrose , vpon S. Luke : No more can they inferre thereof , then S. Hillary hath said . And they cannot conclude , neither of the one nor the other , but that Iesus Christ entered within the house , by a diuine and miraculous power .

For that which they alledge of S. Iohn Chrisostome , touching the virgin , that Iesus Christ came forth of her wombe , her virginitie & integritie no way thereby corrupted nor defiled : yea & that she did remain a virgin before & after her child birth : The Ministers do beleeue , confesse , and teach the same . And yeeld a reason thereof by the scripture : for as much as she neuer had knowne man . But if thence they will infer , that in the birth of Iesus Christ , Nula intercesserit apertio vteri : The wombe was not opened . The Ministers do say : that such a conclusion ▪ should be against the expresse text of the scripture ; and of that said in S. Luke to that purpose : Omne masculinum ad aperiens vuluam , &c. Euery male that first openeth the wombe , &c. Ioyned therevnto , that many auncient authors haue written & approued it . as Origen vpon S. Luke : Tertullian de carne Christi : S. Ierom in his first Tome , Ad Eustochium . Where in expresse termes he saith : that Iesus Christ came bloody forth of the virgins belly . S. Ambrose vpon S. Luke . Wherby it may appeare , that the virgin was truly a virgin , and truly a mother .

To the authoritie which they bring of S. Ierome , The Ministers alledge no other thing for answere , then that which himselfe hath said . To wit : That when Iesus Christ came where his Disciples were , the creature obeyed his Creator .

What the Doctors alledge of S. Cyril , serueth nothing to the confirmation of their purpose .

Touching the heresie in Iouinian , iustly reproued by Saint Augustine : who to auoyd the error of the Manichees , fel into an other : namely , that the virgin in her child-birth remained not a virgin . The Ministers say : that it was not necessary that Iouinian ( to auoid the error of the Manichees ) should cal in doubt the virginitie of Mary : forasmuch as the foundiō of the same virginitie , is vpon this , that she was neuer knowne of man .

Touching the conclusion , that the Doctors would draw from the authorities aboue said , and apply them to their purpose ( which was ) that one body may be in two places at one self-same instant , or that two bodies may be in one self-same place togither : The Ministers say , that it is altogither impertinent . And that neither by the places they alledged , nor any others that they can gather , can they any way inferre the same . Adding further , that it shall neuer be found in any good Author . By meanes wherof , they conclude against the Doctors , that their foundation is nothing . And that they wil falsly authorise their error by the name & title of the auncient Fathers , for fault of good vnderstanding , and taking the terme [ piercing ] which some of the auncient Fathers haue vsed ; and signifieth not a a confusion , and mingling togither of diuers bodies , occupying one selfe same place : but only the yeelding , that the one made , to giue the other passage . As we see , and haue experience , that the aire giueth place to a man that walketh , and birds that flye . And the Ministers for conclusion say : that , that which they maintaine , and propose by their answere , doth not derogate , nor any way diminish the greatnes , glory , and power of God : but doth establish the same ; and much more aduance it , then such prodigious absurdities , ( as those are , which the Doctors set foorth , and will perswade : without any reason or probable meanes ) woulde doo . For they confesse , that all whatsoeuer happened , both in the entry of Iesus Christ into the house where his disciples were , and in his going out as wel of the virgins wombe , as of the Sepulchre , there was the myraculous & diuine power of God . But they denie , that thereby nothing happened , which was impossible , and contained any contradiction .

What they alledge of Caluin & Beza are friuolous things : and proposed more to slaunder and contradict , then to search out and make manifest the truth .

Where as they say that all antiquitie , with one consent do vnderstand by the terme Aphantos ap'aut●n ; That Iesus Christ made himselfe invisible to his Disciples , abiding in their presence . The Ministers for their answer , are content to alledge vnto them , one onely authoritie of S. Ambrose vpon S. Luke : who expounding these words , saith : That hee retired from them . And an other of Nicholas de Lyra , which saith vpon this place , that it was done by the agilitie of his glorious body , which can suddenly vanish away .

To that they alledge of the piercing the heauens , when Iesus Christ ascended thither , the Ministers do answer , that it is very like they claue a sunder , and were opened ; a when at the Baptisme of our Lord Iesus Christ , the Doue descended vpon him : And when as also S. Stephen was stoned .

Touching that which they reproue in the first answere of the Ministers , saying : that in the 12 ▪ chap. of the Acts , there is made no mention of the opening of the prison . The Ministers do admonish them to read diligently the text of the said place . And there they shal find , that when they had passed the first & 2. watch , the vtter gate of the prison ( which was of Iron ) did open of it own accord , to make the Angel & Peter passage .

Whereas the Doctors reply vpon the answer of the Ministers , to the argument of the Camell formerly proposed by them in their first answer : the Ministers say , that there is nothing in their said answer , against the word of God . But that they deceiue themselues : referring to the Camell , whereof hee had formerly made mention : that which ought to bee vnderstood , but of the sauing and conuersion of the rich man only . For our Lord Iesus Christ saying , that that which is impossible to men , is possible with God : nought else pretendeth , but to answere the question which the Disciples had propounded . To wit , who could be saued . Answering wherevnto , hee said : that it was indeed impossible to men : who of themselues are inclined to trust in their riches . But to God it was possible , which could pull backe or withdraw their hearts from that vaine confidence .

As touching the argument which they will build vpon the presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper , ( whereof they wil inferre , that it is in diuers places ) the Ministers confesse the antecedent , & denie the consequence . For there is no doubt , but by faith our Lord Iesus Christ is spiritually present to all the faithfull in the Supper . Whence neuerthelesse must not be inferred , that he is there locally , definitiuely , no● corporally . And wheras they say , that it is not imaginable , the Ministers do avow the same , in regard of these which are not taught and enlightned by the spirit of God , and haue no other imagination , then that which their natural facultie doth furnish them withall . But they that beeing illuminate by the grace of God , haue a true and liuely faith in their hearts : it is no more impossible to represent vnto them Iesus Christ crucified in the Supper , then it was to the Galathians to represent and propose him vnto them , as present and visible , at the preaching of S. Paul : and to those likewise of whom Saint Ciprian maketh mention in his Sermon of the Supper : That in celebrating the same , they embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ , sucke his bloud , and fasten their tongues within his wounds . All which things are done by a liuely contemplation , and apprehension of faith : which is no other thing , then the ground of things hoped for , and an euidence of those things which are not seene : as S. Paul doth define it .

Touching the truth of the thing conioyned with the signes and Sacraments : the Ministers confesse , that the outward signes are neuer without their effect toward the faithfull , who cannot be partakers of the bread and wine distributed in the Supper , but that they participate therwithall , of the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for their sinnes , and of his bloud shead to ratifie the new couenant which God made with his people . But if the Doctors will inferre thereof a corporall presence in the Supper , the Ministers will denie it . And their reason is , because such a presence was not required among the auncient Fathers : who left not for all that , to eate one selfe-same spirituall foode , with all the faithfull at this day : as it shal be by the grace of God , more amply declared when the Lord of Neuers shall please to command conference of this matter .

To that which the Doctors ( slaundering the Ministers ) do say , that they attribute more to themselues , and to humane power , then they do attribute to the power of God : when they say , that by faith they make present , the things which be absent ; seeing that God ( according to the doctrine of the Ministers ) cannot make one selfe-same body to bee in diuers places at one instant . The Ministers doo answere , that such antitheses be foolish , and vnfit for the purpose : and that there is much more great apparance that the Doctors do presume more of their power , and that of the other Priests of the Romane Church , then of the power of God : for God created not by his word , but the heauens , the earth , and the other creatures therein contained . And they in their consecration , doo attribute vnto themselues , the power to create their Creator : as is contained in their breuiarie , where the Priest saith : Qui creauit me , creatur mediante me . He that created me , is created my meanes of mee . And the Ministers much maruell , that the Doctors call the vertue of faith , a humane power , seeing the great and admirable effects thereof proposed vnto vs , in so many examples of the scripture ; chiefly in the eleuenth Chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrewes : where Saint Paul saith : That the Saints , by faith , haue subdued kingdomes , &c. All which things surmount not onely the vertue , but also the capacitie of humane vnderstanding .

In that immediately following this article , there is but repetitions in the reply of the Doctors : and many vnprofitable and superfluous wordes : and little or nothing of that , should be necessary to the purpose . And as they haue answered them particularly to euery point which they repeate , they send them now backe to the former answeres : and pray them henceforth not to serue them twise with one messe .

Concerning the Sacrament of the Aultar , as they call it : The Ministers neither receiue , nor any way approue , that their Masse ( which they pretend to bee a Sacrament ) is a Sacrament : and much lesse a sacrifice , by which remission of finnes may bee any way obtained . Yea they say , that both their Priest and pretended sacrifice , with all the things thereof depending , are blasphemies , and impieties : by which GOD is dishonoured , all the benefite of Iesus Christ buried , and nought esteemed : and the Church of Iesus Christ seduced and abused ; as by the pursuite of the Conference shall plainely appeare . And also , that the Ministers do no way corrupt either the sence , or the words which Iesus Christ vsed in the institution of his holy Supper .

Thursday the 18. of Iuly , in the yeare aboue said .

The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers , touching the Article of the Omnipotencie of God , on Satterday the 20. of Iuly .

THe Doctors say , that this cosequence , God cannot by his omnipotencie , make one body to be in two places at one instant , he is not therefore omnipotent : is so good and strong , that the Ministers ( without wrapping , and more and more drowning themselues in execrable blasphemies , to the great griefe and horror of the Doctors ) can no way denie the same : And besides the two blasphemies maintained by the Ministers in their former answers , ( that is to say , that it was impossible for God to make one body to bee in two places : and that it was impossible for him to will the same ) in the first article of theyr last answere , they adde foure or fiue other blasphemies , out of which doo flow yet many others : besides the absurdities , falshoods , and impostures they vse to the said Doctors . And first they set forth , that God cannot do a thing which derogateth the order which he hath established in the world . Secondly , that it should bee to establish mutabilitie , and change in the Councell of God , did they confesse , that hee can do any thing against the said order which he hath put in the world . And thirdly , that were it so , there should bee contradiction in his will : whereby it would followe , that hee should be a lyar . And for the fourth blasphemie , that the power of God is his will : and that his weaknesse , is his vnwillingnesse . And for the fift , the Ministers pretend , that God hath willed to make a body , which at one selfe instant hath beene in many places , before they beleeue that God could doo it : otherwise they intend to inferre that hee had not power , and could not do it . So that the Ministers will nought acknowledge of the power of God , but so much thereof , as hee hath shewed by effect . And to that purpose they alledge Tertullian . All which blasphemies be drawne out of the proper words of the Ministers first article .

Touching the first , which is , that God cannot make a thing which derogateth the order he hath established in the world : it is very apparant that it is blasphemie by the holy scripture : which in infinite places maketh mention of the workes of God aboue nature , which the Ministers call the order established in the world . And in proper termes teacheth that God can do infinite things , aboue the order by him established in the world . Namely , that Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salte : that a barren woman in her old age , hauing an old husband , brought forth a childe : that a withered Rodde budded : that an Asse spake : that the sonne stayed and went backe : and other more then innumerable examples , contained in the old Testament . And as touching the new , that a virgin brought forth a child . That a body walked vpon the water , & mounted into heauen . And generally all the myracles that Christ and his Apostles did aboue nature , which is contrary to the order established in the world . And of this blasphemie ensueth an other : that God since hee established his order in the world , hath not done , nor could , nor can do any myracle .

Now to proue that the scripture teacheth clearely , that God can do contrary to the order established in the world , it is written in the 50. of Esay : Is my hand ( that is to say my power ) so shortned , that it cannot helpe ? or haue I no power to deliuer ? Behold at my rebuke I drie the sea : I make the flouds desart : Their fish rotteth for want of water , and dyeth for thirst . I cloathe the heauens with darknesse , & make a sacke their couering . And more expresly in the new Testament , where it is said by S. Iohn : That God can of stones raise vp children to Abraham . Which place , although it may be expounded allegorically : yet hath S. Iohn willed in the litterall sence to shewe , that it was possible to God . And the diue did know and confesse , that if Iesus Christ were the true sonne of God , he could chaunge the stones into bread . Which is neuerthelesse contrary to the order established in the world . And it must be noted , that there is no more impossibilitie that the bread should bee chaunged into flesh by the omnipotencie of God , then a stone into bread . And therefore they which denie this last , done by the power of God , do shewe to beleeue lesse the almightinesse of God , then the diuels .

The confutation of the second blasphemie , dependeth on the confutation of the first . For although God , against the order established in the world , hath done many myracles ( as hath beene before recyted ) yet neuerthelesse there is no mutabilitie , nor chaunge in his counsaile .

Touching the third blasphemie , which is , that if God did any thing contrary to the order established in the world , there should be contradiction in his will , and he should therfore be a lyar . The Doctors obiect , that it would follow , that the will of God should be such , neuer to will any thing contrary to the order established in the world . And that God should haue purposed and declared by his word , his will to be such . For otherwise can they not know what the will of God shuld be . And the Ministers do not , nor can they make it appeare by the word of God , the will of God to be such , that he will not do any thing against the order established in the world . And it behoueth the said Ministers to teach of such a wil of God , before they conclude that God made one body to be in two places ( or other thing ) against the order of nature established in the world , he should be a lyar .

Touching the fourth blasphemie , which is , that the power of God is his will , and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnes , according to the sence which the Ministers giue it ( to wit , if God cannot , but that which he will ) it is an heresie of the heretikes called Monarchians , in the Primitiue Church . Against whom , Tertullian wrote , in his booke Aduersus Praxeam , and afterwards renewed by Peter Abaillardus . And since continued by one called Wickliffe : who measured the power of God according to his will . Which is against the expresse word of God , which often declareth many things possible to God , that notwithstanding he wil not do , as by that which is written in the 2. of Wisedome appeareth : where mention is made , that God could send vpon the children of Israel , many kinds of affliction , to chasten them , but he would not do it , hauing disposed all things , by number , waight & measure . And that he could destroy those which had offended , but that he would not , vsing mercie towards them . And in the Gospel , our Lord said to S. Peter , Thinkest thou that I could not now pray my Father , and he would send me more then 12. Legions of Angels ? And notwithstanding he would not pray for that purpose . And his Father would not send them , although he had power to do it to the person of his sonne . And Iesus Christ himself could haue letted his enemies from taking away his life , but he would not . And the Father ( saith S. Paul ) by his power could haue saued him from corporall death . But neuerthelesse hee would not do the one , nor the other . Notwithstanding the Ministers might say , that it was preordained : yet the scripture saith expresly , that he could do it , although it had bin preordained . And as touching the authoritie of Tertullian , the Doctors are glad that the Ministers do produce it , because it maketh wholy for the truth , against the blasphemy of the Ministers , who haue omitted many words and sentences of the said Tertullian , which serued to the confutation of their error : as by the text here inserted , may be easily iudged . Nihil Deo difficile . Quis hoc nesciat ? Et impossibilia apud seculum , possibilia apud deum . Quis ignorat ? Et stulta mund elegit Deus , vt confundat sapientia . Ergo inquiunt haeretici ( Monarchiani scilicet ) difficile non fuit deo ipsum se & patrem & Filium facere , aduersus traditam formam rebus humanis . Nam & Aerilem parere contra naturam , difficile deo non fuit , sicut nec virginem planè nichil Deo difficile . Sed sitam abrupte in praesumptiombus nostris hac sententia vtamur , quid vis de Deo confingere poterimus quasi fecerit , quia facere potuerit . Non autem quia omnia potest facere , idioque credendum est illum fecisse etiam quod non fecerit : sed an fecerit requirendum . Potuit ( ita saluus sum ) Deus pennis hominem ad volandum instruxisse ( quod & miluis praestitit ) non tamen quia potuit , statim & fecit , potuit & praxeam & omnes pariter haeriticos statim extinxisse , non tamen quia potuit , extinxit . Oportebat enim miluos esse & haereticos : oportebat & patrem crucifigi . Hac ratione erit aliquid & deo dificile , id scilicet quod non fecerit : non quia potuerit , sed quia noluerit . Etenim posse , velle est , & non posse , nolle . Nothing is vnpossible to God : who knoweth not this ? And things vnpossible to men , are possible to God : who is ignorant hereof ? And God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise . Therefore say the heretikes ( namely the Monarchians ) it was not hard for God himself to make both the Father and the sonne , against the prescribed forme in humane things . For the barren to bring foorth against nature : as also a Virgin , was nothing hard vnto God . Truly for God there is nothing too hard .

But if in our presumption we so abruptly vse this sentence , wee may faigne euerie thing to be of God : as though hee will do , because he can doo . We must not beleeue , because hee can doo all things , that therefore hee hath done what he hath not done : but wee must seeke if hee haue done it . God could ( I am sure ) haue formed man to flye with wings , ( as he hath appointed the kytes ) he hath not forthwith done it because he could . He could presently cut off both Praxea , and likewise all heretikes together : yet hath he not therefore , because he could . For it behoued there should be both kytes and heretikes : It behoued also the Father to be crucified . By this reason shall something be too hard for God , namely that which he will not do : not because hee cannot , but because he will not . For to be able , is to will : and not to be able , is not to will . By which text it is easily seene , that according to Tertullian , God can do many things which he will not do : as he can make a man to flye , and doth it not : destroy heretikes ; neuerthelesse he destroyeth them not , because he will not , all that he may doo .

And touching the conclusion which the Ministers draw from the said place of Tertullian , ( to wit ) that the power of God is his will : and his weakenesse is likewise his vnwillingnesse : The Ministers shewe , that they haue not well examined the vnderstanding of that place . For Tertullian of his owne iudgement saith it not ; ( so should he haue concluded against what hee had said before ) but hee inferreth the same against the Monarchian heretikes , which said : That what God could , he would do , and it was done . And for this reason Tertullian concludeth against them : that it behoued whatsoeuer God had not done , was to him hard and impossible . So that ( after these heretikes ) it was all one to be done , and to haue power to do it . And not to be done , as much as to be impossible to God . And hereof inferreth Tertullian , would follow , that the power , and the will , and the act of God , should be all one . And contrariwise , that a thing not to be done , and to be impossible for God to do it , should be all one : and so the power of God , and his wil , all one . And his weaknesse , & his vnwillingnesse be likewise all one . Which Tertullian concludeth for an absurd thing , proceeding from the opinion of the said Monarchians heretikes , and not of his owne iudgement , which was altogether contrarie . Wherein it appeareth , that the opinion of the Ministers , is like to that of the Monarchian heretikes , refuted by Tertullian . And that the Ministers maintaine such an opinion , it is euident by that which is contained in the fift blasphemie .

The Doctors for conclusion against the said blasphemies , do shewe that God can do much more then he will do , and then he hath established in the order of the world . For otherwise , other blasphemies would yet ensue : namely , that the power of God should not be infinite , but limited . Also that all things of necessitie should bee done in this world , because God could not but maintaine the established order in the world . Which Caluin himselfe detesteth , saying : That God of his omnipotencie , changeth and altereth the order established ( as seemeth best vnto him ) and that otherwise to thinke , were to limit his power and prouidence . Where the Ministers say in their said former article , that the auncient Doctors of the Church haue denied the omnipotencie of God : it is a manifest falshood , and they wrong them greatly . For denie it they doo not , but interpret the scripture , which seemeth to denie it : and giue to vnderstand , how it ought to be taken . So that , so farre off is it , that by this scripture well vnderstood , exception may bee giuen against the omnipotencie of God ; that contrariwise the same is confirmed : as saith Saint Augustine in the fift booke , and tenth Chapter of the Citie of God . The power of God ( saith hee ) is nothing diminished , although it bee said , that hee cannot die , nor bee deceiued : for such things he cannot do : because , that could he do them , his power should thereby be lessened . And concludeth , that such things which be of infirmitie he cannot do , beccause he is almightie .

The Ministers in the end of the first article , vse deceit towards the Doctors , in that they affirme theyr difference to be , because the Doctors maintaine , that a body is in many places , for as much as God can so cause it to bee : and that the Ministers on the other part hold , that it is not in the power of God to do it , because hee will not doo it . The Doctors doo shewe , that they ( for their part ) neuer so concluded for truth , that one true body was in two places , because God could so cause it : but that the question was onely to knowe , whether God could doo it , to come afterwards by order , to proue by scripture that hee would doo it . And they haue alreadie heretofore cyted the scripture of the Supper and Ascention . And further added the doctrine of Caluin touching the said Supper : to shewe , that the will of God is , to make one body to be in two places , ( as indeed it is ) according to the expresse word of God . Moreouer , to this selfe-same end , the Doctors haue produced the scriptures of the closed doores : of the birth of our Lord : and of the resurrection through the stone : which are made like : and by the same reason , to that of a body in many places . The Ministers on the contrary part , to denie the wil of God , and depraue the holy scriptures ( which declareth the will of God to be such , that one body be in two places ) alledge nothing more instantly , then the impossibilitie for God to doo this .

Now , to the end that all the world may vnderstand the present difference , betweene the Doctors and Ministers , the Doctors declare , that no other difference there hath beene hitherto touching this article , then to know whether it be in the power of God , to make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant or no.

And for the second article , the Doctors say , that the Ministers answere not to the purpose : for the obiection was not , whether quantitie were an accident of a Mathematicall body , Aut de praedicamento quantitatis , as speaketh the Philosophers ) but to know whether it were of the essence and of necessitie to the quantitie of a body , to be circumscript , and in one piace inclosed . And as touching S. Augustine , by the Ministers alledged , he speaketh expresly according to the proprieties of the diuine and humane natures . And wel saith , that the diuine , is in all places , but not the humane : because of it naturall proprietie , it requireth a place certaine . And of this make the Doctors no doubt , according to the said naturall proprietie . But the question is , to wit , whether aboue nature , by the omnipotencie of God , he cannot cause one body to be without place , proportionable to it greatnesse , Which S. Augustine speaking , de Ianuis clausis : not hauing regard to the nature of things , but to the power of God , plainly confesseth . And the Doctors would desire the Ministers to alledge this Epistle of S. Augustine , against the doctrine of Caluin , and his Ministers , for the descent of the soule of Iesus Christ into hell , as often as they alledge the passage of the place of bodies , against the power of God , touching the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament .

In the 3. article the Ministers are deceiued . For after the sayings of the Philosophers , and according to the naturall reason of a body ( which the Ministers do follow ) Locus est superficies Corporis continentis . Place is the ouermost part of a containing body . Wherfore it should behoue , that were the high and last heauen circumscript of place , there should be a body aboue the high and first heauen , A quo primum Caelum contineretur . Et sic in infinitum . Of which the first heauen should be contained . And so infinit . And moreouer the Ministers answer not to the other obiections made than vpon this article .

And as touching the passages of scripture , which they alledge to proue that there are roomths & places aboue all the heauens , they captiously conclude , and 〈◊〉 with doubtfulnesse of the name of place . For in all their 〈◊〉 of the dimensions of bodies ( which they haue said 〈◊〉 to require roomth and place equall and 〈…〉 their bignesse ) it is meete they vnderstand 〈…〉 roomthes and places , euen as the dimensions and of 〈◊〉 do require the same .

And now , when they speake of place● 〈…〉 meet they vnderstand them , others then 〈…〉 be not such roomthes & places , as these wherein 〈…〉 now are : but incomprehensible and vnimaginable places , where bodies and spirits indifferently are , without distinction for their greatnesse , of certaine spaces and places corporall . And in such places , the Ministers rule is false , by which they maintaine , that a body cannot be in one place , if it bee not as spacious , as the greatnesse of the body . Moreouer the Doctors say , that it is the manner of heretikes , to interpret the scriptures spiritually , when they are litterally to bee taken : and contrariwise , to expound according to the letter , that which spiritually and by figure ought to bee vnderstood . As the Ministers doo expound the house of Cod in the other world , litterally and corporally , wherein there are spaces , and corporall habitations , diuers and seperate one from an other : albeit it ought to bee spiritually vnderstood , for the diuersitie of degrees of blessednesse .

The said Doctors cannot omit , a manifest contradiction of the Ministers in this selfe-same article : wherein they pre●end , that the bodies and soules of the blessed , are lodged aboue all the heauens . And yet they place the body of Iesus Christ within the heauen .

And touching the alledged article , condemned by the facultie of diuinitie at Paris : the Doctors answere , that the Ministers do ordinarily alledge authorities , pared , or euilly applied : For the Article saith , that the Bishop of Paris , hauing called the Facultie , condemned all those , which would place two distinct heauens : one for the Angels , the other for the soules of men . Which nothing pertaineth to the present question .

The Ministers in the fourth article do charge the Doctors , who neuer attribute the proprietie of God to any creature : but haue often heretofore said , that to bee euerie where , and incircumscript , was not naturall to any creatures , but to God alone . And the Authors by the Ministers alledged ( as Saint Basil , Didimus , and Vigilius , speake no otherwise than of the proprietie of nature , to be euery where , or not . And yet they neuer denie , but it is in Gods power to cause one creature or body , aboue it nature , to be in two , or many places : but ( as aforesaid ) when they come to the power of God , many of the olde authors confesse , that it is possible with God , and that hee hath done the same in the Sacrament : the answere of the Ministers is therefore to no purpose . For the whole contention is of the power of God , and not of naturall proprieties .

The Ministers in the fift article haue not well conceiued the reason of the Doctors : who alledge , that the Angels are naturally circumscript , as well as bodies : and hereby would inferre , that the circumscription of place simply depended not as of the sole and essentiall cause of the dimensions of a body : as by all their said reasons , the Ministers pretend . Albeit the Doctors are not ignorant that to put difference betweene the corporall and spirituall creatures , they haue accustomed to distinguish in schooles , that the Angels Sunt diffinitiue in loco , and the bodies Circumscriptiue .

In the sixt article to satisfie the Doctors , who made instance they should produce one onely place of the auncient Fathers : where it was said , that it is not in Gods power , to make one body to be in two places . The Ministers for all the testimonies they could haue , do falsly alledge a place of S. Augustine , where it is said ( as it is cyted in Gratian De consecra : distinct . 2. C. prima quidem ) that the said Saint Augustine hath written , that it behoued the body of Iesus to be in one place : wherevnto say the Doctors , that it is not so couched in the proper text of S. Augustine , which is in the 30. tract vpon Saint Iohn . For such is the tenour in all the auncient copies of S. Augustine : Corpus domini , in quo resurrexit , vno loco esse potest , veritas eius vbique diffusa est . The body of the Lord , in which he rose againe , may be in one place , his truth is shead into euerie place . Where is not this word [ Oportet ] as the Ministers cyte it , hauing taken the same out of Gratian. And that men may knowe there is no great trust to be giuen to the fragments of Gratian , without recourse to the copies of Saint Augustine , in the tytle of Canon , these words are there extracted out of the exposition of S. Augustine , vpon the 54 Psalme . From whence hee draweth the onely beginning of his Canon : and yet doth he not truly cyte it . The ●est of the said Canon , is taken from diuers passages of S. Augustine . And although there should bee Oportat . S. Augustine speaketh after his wonted manner , according to the proprietie of a body , opposing the diuinitie to the humanitie : without touching the operation of Gods omnipotencie . Whereof when he maketh mention , and that he speaketh of the Sacrament , he plainly affirmeth , the body of Iesus Christ to be in diuers places ; by the omnipotencie of God . As the Doctors hope in their resolution to deduce as well out of him , as other auncients also .

The 8. artide containeth many errors , against Philosophie and truth . First , because the Ministers make no distinction betweene the body they cab Mathematicall ( to wit , hauing dimension of breadth , length , and height ) and the Phisicall or naturall body : to wit , which is composed of a substantiall forme and matter : by the vnion whereof , it is made a naturall & substantiall body . Secondly , although the body should bee without quantitie , yet should it differ from our soules seperated , which bee not materiall substances : and consequently should it also differ from the Angells and spirits . Thirdly , the Ministers by the conclusion of this article , doo manifestly declare , that they acknowledge not any substantiall body . And where they say , that although God might seperate the dimensions from a substance , without corrupting the same , that such substance should remaine spiritually , as the Angels , they are deceiued . For such substance should not remaine immateriall , as are our soules , and the Angels which be not capable of dimensions : and therefore should it yet bee different from Angels and our soules .

Concerning the ninth article , the Ministers answere nothing to the purpose . For the Doctors say not , that the massinesse and waight bee essentiall in a body , but to presse downeward , is essentiall to the sadnesse and waight of a body . And by their obiection they demaunded to knowe , whether an earthly and massy body , abiding in it substance and natural waight , might not by the omnipotencie of God , be hanged in the ayre , without falling downward , albeit it were against it nature and inclination ,

Moreouer , for answere to many articles which concerne the act of two bodies in one place , and the passages of holy scripture , and auncient Authors produced by the Doctors , ( to proue that it was in Gods power to cause two bodies to bee in one onely place : and contrariwise , that by the same reason it was in the same power , to cause one body to bee in two places ) . First the Doctors say , that the Ministers doo wrong , to denie this consequence . Two bodies by the power of God , may be in one selfe-same place . Then on the contrarie part , one body may be in two places , by the selfe-same power . For as great repugnancie there is to Gods established order , in the one , as in the other : and as great contradiction in nature , founded vppon one selfe-same cause and reason : to wit , in the limitation , and circumscription of a body . Which as it is naturall to be in place , so is it naturall for it , to bee in place proportioned and answerable to it measures . And if for the number of diuers places where a body should bee , one may inferre , that it should no more bee a body ( as implying contradiction ) by the same reason , according to one onely place , where many bodies should bee , may also bee inferred , that they should no more be many bodies : or that many bodies should be one . Which would imply the contradiction as the former .

And where the Ministers denie the antecedent , which is , that two bodies may bee in one place , the Doctors to proue it , haue produced the passages of scripture , of the closed doores : the birth of the body of our Lord of the Virgin : the going out of the Sepulchre : the passage of a Camell through the eye of a needle : and the piercing of the heauens made by Christ in his ascention .

And for as much as the Ministers denie these actes , contained expresly in holy scripture , and expounded by the auncient Christians , and depraue the same at their pleasure . The Doctors estsoones vpon the texts of scripture do say as followeth . First as touching the closed doores , Saint Iohn saith : That Iesus came , meaning into the place where his Disciples were . But hee came not there without entering thereinto . For to bee found in the middest of them without entring , there should bee a much greater myracle , then that hee entred there simply . Secondly it is said , Cum fores essent clausa , or Ianuis clausis . To wit , that hee there entered , the doores beeing shut . And there is no apparance that the scripture maketh mention of doores , rather then an other place , were it not to shewe the place by which hee entred . Thirdly , it is added not in vaine , that the doores were shut , without saying that any opening was myraculously made . For it is alwaies said , Quod venit Ianuis clausis . That hee came the doores beeing shut . And were it true , that the doores had bin opened by diuine power , this should be false , that our Lord entred , Ianuis clausis , for hee should haue entered Ianuis apertis , howsoeuer they had bene opened .

And to shewe , that the common consent of all the Auncientes haue bene , that Iesus entered therein by the closed doores , the Doctors set forth foure foundations , drawne from the auncient Fathers . The first is , that all expresly confesse the myracle of such an entrie to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ . The second is , that such myracle was there wrought by the power of God , aboue the nature of a body . The third is , that the Fathers especially iudge , that herein consisteth the myracle , that the body pas●ed through the closed doores : and that so it was with an other body . And for the fourth ground , they adde , that the Apostles by reason of such entring , supposed that the body of Iesus Christ was not a true body , but a spirit , or vaine vision : which the Ministers lightly passe ouer , without any answere . Now so it is , that if by the power of God ( as the Ministers will haue it ) an opening was made of the doores , or any other part of the house , to giue entrie to the bodie of Iesus Christ : then the myracle did not consist in the said body , but in the doores , or other part of the house , which was open : and nothing had beene there against the nature of the bodie of our Lorde : for it is not repugnant to any bodie whatsoeuer , to enter by an opening made by myracle , or otherwise .

Bee it , that Iustine was not Author of the questions against the Gentiles ; yet can they not deny , but they are of some auncient Christian , of the Primitiue Church . And the Doctors haue attributed them to him , in whose name they are intituled . And so much there is , that the said Iustine in the place alledged , layeth the myracle to haue bene done in the bodie of Iesus Christ : which ( being grosse and thick ) entered through the closed doores by the power of God ; contrary to the nature of a bodie . And therefore the Apostles supposed it a vision : by reason of the entrie made without opening , as spirites doo wontedly enter . Let the text be seene .

S. Hillary saith not only , that he there entered in what sort soeuer it were , by the omnipotencie of God , ( as the Ministers will wrest his authoritie ) but as if he had now to deale with the said Ministers , hee repulseth & mocketh at all their euasions and subtilties , which vpon this act they imagined . Nothing ( saith he ) gaue place , to open to such a bodie , and that it lost nothing of it substance : nor by it entry was ought diminished . He addeth : That the doores and clefts were shut , and fast barred . And in this neuerthelesse lyeth the myracle , that the true naturall bodie of Iesus Christ , contrary to nature , by the omnipotencie of God entered into a house , close and couert , without any opening : wherein hee plainly sheweth , that the myracle consisteth in the bodie of Iesus Christ . And for this let the text be viewed , which the Doctors wish to be well examined by the Ministers .

S. Ambrose in the place cyted saith : That S. Thomas was abashed , seeing the bodie of Iesus Christ to enter , Per in via septa corporibus . Et quod natura corporea per impenitrabile corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu . Through closures impassable for bodies : And that the corporeall nature powred it selfe by an inuisible meane through an impenitrable bodie .

S. Chrisostome in the Homely of S. Iohn Baptist , and in his Commentaries vpon the Gospell of S. Iohn , expresly saith : Qui intrauit per ostia clausa , non erat phantasma , non erat spiritus , vere corpus erat . Quid enim dicit ? Respicite & videte : quia spiritus carnem & ossa non habet , quae me habere videtis . Habebat carnes , habebat & ossa , & clausa erant omnia . Quomodo clausis octijs intrauerunt ossa & caro ? Clausa sunt omnia & intrat , quem intrantem non vidimus . Nescis quomodo factum sit , & das hoc potentiae Dei .

He that entred through the closed doores , was not a vain vision , was not a spirit , it was truly a bodie . For what saith he ? Behold and see : For a spirit hath not flesh and bones , as you see me haue . Hee had flesh , hee had also bones , and all thinges were shut . How entered bones and flesh , the doores being shut ? All thinges are shut , and hee entereth whome wee see not entering . How it is done thou knowest not , and attributeth this to the power of God .

Where S. Chrisostome without difficultie , as doth also S. Ambrose , acknowledgeth the myracle to haue bin wrought in the body of Iesus Christ ; in that hee passed through the shut doores , by the omnipotencie of God .

S. Ierome in the places quoted by the Doctors manifestly writeth : that the body pierced the closed doores , euen as the Poets recount that the fight of Linceus pierced the walls , to see through without opening . S. Ierome then reasoned of the nature of a bodie , which the Bishop of Ierusalem ( infected with the heresie of Origen ) held not to bee truly in Iesus Christ after his resurrection : because contrary to the nature of a bodie , he had passed through the closed doores : wherein Saint Ierome ( as the other Auncients ) declareth : that it nothing derogateth from the nature of the bodie : because it proceeded from a supernaturall power .

And in the first Booke against Iouinian hee saieth as much : where he vseth these words : Iesus entered through the closed doores . Quod humanorum corporum natura non patitur . Which thing , the nature of humane bodies admitteth not . So that with others , he placeth the myracle in the body of Iesus Christ .

There is no doubt , but S. Augustine in three places ( at the least ) maketh expresse mention , that this body passed through the shut doores : and that this was done by the power of God , aboue the nature of bodies : and that therefore heretikes ought not to denie the true bodie of Iesus Christ : besides the passages De agone Christiano , and of the Epistle Ad volusianum , alreadie alledged in the booke De Ciuitate Dei , he saith so also .

Epiphanius in the first booke , vpon the 20. Heresie , and in the 2. booke , vpon the 64. Heresie , against the Origenists , declareth that it is but a spirituall body : to wit , which looseth nothing of it corporall substance : but changeth & getteth new qualities and spirituall perfections , and meete for spirites : as to passe through the walles without opening . And giueth example of the body of Iesus Christ , which pierced and passed through the closed doores after his resurrection . And euen so iudgeth ( as others do ) the myracle to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ : and that because he pierced the shut doores , as a spirit , albeit hee were a true body .

Cirillus Alexandrinus determineth also ( as the others ) this myracle to haue hapned in the body of our Lord ; which by the like myracle , walked vpon the waters , against the nature of a body , by the power of God ; and reproueth all them , which ought suspected by this deed , that the body of Iesus Christ was not naturall .

By all these authorities , the foure grounds proposed , are true . And therefore to corrupt the intention and faith of so many Auncientes and learned Christians , to bring in a confusion of new Interpretations , is ouer-great impudencie . For besides the diuersitie of Caluin and Beza , the Ministers to that ende produce two others : to wit , that the Angell opened the doore : as though Iesus had not power himselfe to open it , or else had need of opening . And the other is , that the opening was made which way he pleased . And by such diuersities , the Ministers sufficiently declare , that they know not where to rest . And ( which is worse ) they could not alledge one only auncient Father , for author of their fictions , or that is contrary to all the others , from the Primitiue Church . And to alledge , that the Iron gate ( in the Acts of the Apostles opened to S. Peter of it own accord , serueth nothing to the purpose : For the Doctors neuer denied the same : but haue well saide , that the scripture spake not of the gates of the prison : and if at the entry of Iesus Christ the doores had beene so opened , the Euangelist had as easily said it , as he said they were shut ; and as S. Luke saith , that the Iron gate was opened of it selfe .

There is no doubt , but peruerse spirits , which doubted of the truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in this world , were not of opinion touching the passage of the doores , with other Christians . And although they thought to helpe and aide themselues herewith , to support their heresies ( as of all the other myracles hapned to the body of our Lorde aboue nature ) the Fathers neuerthelesse haue not denied this , nor others semblable acts : for feare to giue heretikes occasion of error . But haue declared and distinguished what was of the nature of the said bodie , and what came vnto it by the omnipotencie of God . And the Christians ( for heresies ) neuer abandoned the truth : albeit heretikes thereby haue sometimes abused the same . Sith then the bodie of Iesus Christ passed through the doores without opening ; sure it is , that two bodies haue bene , and may be in one selfe same place . And hereby haue the Doctors well proued their proposition : which without scripture , or testimony of any Father , the Ministers deny .

Concerning the Birth of Iesus Christ without fraction of the virgin , the Doctors say , that many of the Auncients produced for the passage of the doores , haue also held , that myracle to haue bene wrought in the bodie of our Lord , and not in the bodie of the virgin , but in as much as she remained in her purenesse , without fracture or opening . And for their reason , the Fathers haue alledged the scripture : Exce virgo concipiet & pariet . Behold a virgin shall conceaue and bring forth . And out of Ezechiel : Porta haec clausa erit . This gate shall be shut . As reciceth S. Ambrose in the 80. Epistle , where a Councell is conteined , wherein S. Ambrose was present : which determined against Iouinian and other heretikes , that the virginitie and puritie remained in her child ▪ birth , to the mother of God . Which thing S. Augustine in the place alledged by the Doctors in the first booke , and 2. Chapter against Iulian , repeateth . And where the Ministers say , that the virgin had not lost her virginitie , when our Lorde was borne as other men : in that they are condemned of heresie by the Fathers : which declare Iouinian to derogate her virginitie , for the like opinion as the Ministers do hold . Of whom the Doctors would willingly demaund , what myracle they acknowledge in the birth of our Lord , touching his bodie , and the virginitie of his mother , if he departed from her , as other children from their mothers , as the Ministers do write . And as touching that which they alledge of Tertullian , Origen , S. Ambrose , and S. Ierome ; the Doctors say : that Tertullian & Origen held such an heresie , and many others , which were reproued before Iouinian . And for this , were condemned with him and his consorts . And for S. Ambrose , it is euident , that he beleeued the contrary ; as well by the Councell where he was present : as by that which he wrote in the booke De Institutione Virginis . And therefore , where hee saith : that Christus vuluam aperuerit , it must be interpreted , not that it was by rupture or fraction , but by effect of generation , and production of his true bodie , out of the wombe of the virgin , by myracle and supernaturall power . So that , as the conception was myraculous , so was his birth : Et aperire vuluam , is a phrase and maner of speaking in the scripture , to call and nominate the first borne : howsoeuer he had power to be borne . And as touching S. Ierome , he speaketh nothing of the fracture , but only that the bodie islued out bloodie , as it was in the wombe of his mother : and to bee bloodie , there is no necessitie of fracture of the mother .

The Doctors for conclusion of this article , would willingly demaund of the Ministers , whether they hold for an article of faith , the virginitie of the mother after the child-birth : & whether they could proue the same by the expresse and vnreproueable word of God written . For as much as Beza when hee pleaseth , maketh doubt of these two points : and that the pretended reformed religion among the articles of faith , of his diuers imprinted confessions , recyteth sometimes the virginitie of the mother of God after her child-birth , and sometimes omitteth the same . And in some confessions inserteth not that Iesus was borne of the Virgin Marie , but onely that hee issued of the seede of Danid .

The Doctors employ for the resurrection , and issuing out of the body of Iesus Christ through the stone of the Sepulchre , the most part of the authorities alledged by them vpon the closed doores : as the whole lecture of the foresaid authorities , with Gregorie Nazianzene , in his tragedie of the passion of our Lord , will witnesse : which conioyneth ( as do many other Auncients ) these three myracles happened into the body of our Sauiour aboue nature : namely the birth without fracture of the Virgin : the resurrection through the stone : and the entrance by the closed doores .

The Doctors adde , that Caluin and Beza make conscience to say as doo the Ministers , that our Lord arose not , the Sepulchre beeing shut and closed : and rather had the said Caluin and Beza fall into friuolous abfurdities , and ridicclous expositions here afore alledged , then yeeld to the opinion of the Ministers . Because there is more appearance in the text of the Gospell , that Iesus Christ was risen before the stone was rowled away by the Angell : as therein agree the most part of auncient Christians . And by this meane also is there occasion giuen , more easily to beleeue the resurrection of our Sauiour , then if the stone had beene taken away before the resurrection . For one might more easily say , that the body had bene transported and not risen againe . And the text saith not , that the Angell rowled away the stone before the resurrection , or when Iesus arose , but rather afterwards : as there is great apparance in the scripture , in reason , and all antiquitie .

Pope Leo is euilly alledged by the Ministers , which well knowe to conceale what is written in the Epistle by them cyted , touching the closed doores . And they euilly alledge that of the resurrection . For it is not said , that our Lord arose after the stone was rowled from the Sepulchre . But well is it said against the Fantasmatiques , that the substance put vpon the Crosse , and that which rested in the Sepulchre , and that which arose the third day ( the stone of the graue beeing rowled away ) is the true flesh of Iesus Christ .

By which words , Pope Leo meaneth not to say , that our Lord was not risen , before the stone was remoued : but onely sheweth , that the body of Iesus Christ risen againe ; was a true , and not a phantastike body : of whose resurrection it appeared by the opening of the graue . And such is the common interpretation of old Authors touching the remouing of the stone .

For conclusion of all these auncient testimonies , the Doctors are abashed that the Ministers ( seeing them so manifest , and themselues conuinced , that God cannot only cause two bodies to bee in one selfe-same place , but that hee hath also done the same ) dare slaunderouslye depraue the vnderstanding of them , which euerie man of good and sound iudgement , can by the onely reading finde out .

Notwithstanding the Ministers say , that the reasons taken from such and so euident testimonies , be impertinent . So that wiah like libertie ( common to heretikes ) they feare not , without any text of scripture , or any place of auncient Fathers , to interpret , that two bodies to pierce one an other , is no other thing , then one body to giue place to the other .

Of which false and licencious interpretation , the common phrase of speech among Philosophers themselues doth condemne them . And the feat example brought of them which walke through the aire beating vpon them , and of Birdes when they flye , is ouer subtill . And whereas they boast in the said article , that in denying that two bodies may be in one place by the omnipotencie of God , or one bodie in two places , they aduance and magnifie the power of God . As true is that , as when in all their other errors , by which they resist the truth of God , and blaspheme him , they euer boast to aduance the glorie of God . And the Ministers must paint and couer their filthinesse and deformitie , with some colour of speech , to blinde the simple and ignorant .

Good reason also haue the Ministers not to excuse the interpretations of Caluin and Beza , as too too friuolous and ridiculous : and preferre in the meane time their owne interpretation , though more ridiculous then those of their Maisters : wherein appeareth the concorde betweene the Maisters and Disciples ; all vsing one foundation of their religion : which is , to trust alwayes to their owne particular and priuate interpretation , and inspiration : and to preferre the same to all others . Where the Ministers say , that the bodie of our Lord was not inuisible to the Disciples , of whom mention is made in the 24. of Luke : but that his bodie only being nimble , he suddainly withdrew himselfe : the Doctors obiect , that the suddaine departing ( whereof speaketh S. Ambrose , and Lyra , ) maketh not , but that the bodie was inuisible : as signifieth the Greeke word Aphantos : which signifieth , not a suddaine departure , but an incapacitie to be seene and knowne . And so the text of the scripture is plainly for the Doctors . Ioyned neuerthelesse , that when the olde and late Diuines wil giue examples that Iesus was made inuisible , they ordinarily alledge this passage .

The Ministers also who boast , that they rest vpon nothing , but the pure word of God , ( for exposition of scripture ) bring their dreames , aboue their owne perswasion ; as touching the closed doores appeareth . And with like libertie vse they to expound the text of Saint Paul , which expresly maintaineth , that our Lord pierced the heauens . And it is likely ( say they ) that the heauens claue a sunder , and were opened . And if one demaund , whence they learned such an interpretation , they answere , from the word of God , founded vpon their inward inspiration : by which , they appropriate that which is written in Saint Mathew ; that heauens were opened when the Doue descended vpon our Lord . As though all the heauens were clest asunder , and the holy Ghost had not power to descend without the opening of them : not nothing that the scripture in many places taketh heauen for the ayre .

Concerning that they alledge of S. Stephen , who when he was stoned , sawe the heauens open , more meete it were for the Ministers , to interpret such visions , to bee made in spirit , as there is great likelyhood : else should it behoue to confesse two myracles : the one in the diuision of the heauens : the other in this , that the sight of S. Stephen , not onely pierced vnto , but also aboue the heauens : where the Ministers confesse , the body of Iesus Christ to bee at the right hand of the Father , whom Saint Stephen sawe , which is against the order of God established in the wold : whereby it is necessarie that there be a certaine distance betweene the eye seeing , and the thing which is seene . And no lesse hard is it , that such thing bee done , then that two bodies should pierce one an other . Nor must they forget that the scriptures oftentimes in spirituall apparitions and visions , vseth this phrase of speech , that the heauens were opened : and yet in such case was there but a spirituall vision , and likewise but a spirituall opening . And euen as the Ministers will take the rigour of the word [ the opening of the heauens ] : so should they not thinke it straunge if the Doctors with like rigour , take [ the piercing of the heauens ] especially in the article of the Ascention : where the question is of the bodie of Iesus Christ , which had alreadie pierced more impenitrable bodies then the heauens .

And the Doctors to auoyd tediousnesse , referre themselues to more ample debating this point [ of the piercing of the heauen ] hereafter .

As touching the 28. article , where the Ministers against expresse scripture , do obstinately defend , that God cannot by his power , make a Camell ( or Cable ) to passe through the eye of a needle : the Doctors cannot sufficiently ma●uel , either at the blindnesse of the Ministers , which seeme to see nothing at noone-day : or at their obstinacie and boldnesse . And that the Ministers vnderstand not their fault , the Doctors cannot thinke , but that impugning the truth , well knowne to themselues , they sinne against their owne conscience . And God suffereth that ( it seemeth ) to happen vnto them , in this so manifest a place and text of the scripture : to the end , that by this article , one may perceiue how much more bold they are , to giue false sences , to scriptures more obscure then this , and to the sayings of the auncient Christians which make against them .

Now that the great wrong may be vnderstood , which the Ministers doo , in denying that our Lord can cause a Camell ( or Cable ) to passe through the eye of a needle : the Doctors do obiect , that it should be impossible with God to saue a rich man : vsing such argument , taken from the text of the Gospell . More impossible or hard is it for God to saue a rich man , then to make a Camell ( or Cable ) to passe through the eye of a needle . But God by his omnipotencie cannot make ( after the Ministers ) a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle . Therefore God by his omnipotencie cannot cause a rich man to be saued , and enter into the kingdome of heauen . The Maior is of the scripture : The Minor is confessed by the Ministers : and the consequence is necessarie . And according to all Philosophie , hee that cannot doo a more easie thing , cannot doo a thing more hard . So also without contradiction haue the Auncients expounded the present scripture : as doth Origen in the Homily vpon this place , saying : that it is possible for a Camell to enter through the eye of a needle : yet not possible with men , but with God . And the manner how such thing may bee done , is knowne of God , and his sonne Iesus Christ , and of him to whom hee shall reueale it .

Semblably Saint Augustine in the first and fift Chapter of his booke of the spirite and letter , thus speaketh to Marcellinus , whom hee wrote vnto : It seemeth to thee absurd , when I say vnto thee , that a man may bee without sinne : albeit that ( Christ excepted ) such a one is not founde . Should it seeme absurd vnto thee , that a thing may bee done , whereof no example can bee shewed ? Seeing thou doubtest not ( as I thinke ) but it neuer happened that a Camell passed through the eye of a needle . And yet is it saide , that with God such thing is possible .

By the Ministers answere vnto the 29. article , may easily bee seene , that they deceiue and abuse their Disciples , making them beleeue by faire words and writings , that they really receiue in the Supper , the true body of Iesus Christ , the same which issued from the belly of the Virgin , and was fastned vpon the Crosse , for the restauration of mankind . And wil make them to vnderstand , that they who place not with the bread and wine in the Sacrament , ( as they call it ) of the Supper , but some spirituall effect onely ( as are the redemption , righteousnesse , sanctification , life eternall , and other gifts , and benefites , which Iesus Christ bringeth to his elect ) diminish the excellencie and dignitie of the same Sacrament , and that they be Zuinglians . But that besides such spirituall effects , one must beleeue that hee receiueth truly the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper .

They hold neuerthelesse an other opinion . For when they are pressed with arguments , and cannot defend such an imaginarie and phantastike presence , they confesse by their writings , they are become Zuinglians , and returne to the spirituall presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper : which is as much to say , as besides the bread and wine , they receiue a certaine spirituall effect , and not really the body , as the Ministers do in the present answere : which thing they make manifest , by that they cyte of the Apostle S. Paul : by which citation may bee gathered , what is their opinion concerning the Supper : to wit , that the body of our Lord Iesus Christ is not really , but by spirituall effect onely in the hearts of the faithfull . For the Galathians by the hearing of S. Pauls preaching , receiued not really the body of Christ crucified , but had onely an imagination of the Crosse and passion of Iesus Christ , and receiued onely the fruite of their faith : that is to say , by this meanes they were iustified and sanctified before God : also the allegation which the Ministers make of S. Ciprian , tendeth to this ende , to shewe that in the Supper are receiued some spirituall effects onely : which neuerthelesse by these words , to embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ , to sucke his bloud , &c. be allegorically signified . Wherein they denie ( against the intent of S. Ciprian in the Sermon of the Supper ) the reall prefence of the body of Iesus Christ . The Doctors confesse that the argument they haue made , is addressed to Caluinists , and not to Zuinglians . And they supposed that the Ministers would not otherwise haue thought of this Sacrament , then Caluin , Beza , and the other Ministers , renowmed to be Ministers of the Caluinist Church , which they call reformed .

An other maner of speech vsed they , which exhibited the confession touching that Sacrament , to the Bishops at Poissy , who freely confessed the body of Iesus Christ to bee really present in that Sacrament : which the Ministers in conference with the Doctors , do now denie . And hereby the Ministers in the iudgement of the Doctors , of Calvinists , become Almanists . Wherewithall , they that maintaine the doctrine of the Church , which they call reformed , will not be greatly pleased : seeing their principall pillars ( for not being able to answere an argument obiected by the Doctors ) do leaue them in the businesse : considering that in the answer they say themselues to be so much enlightned with the holy spirit , which maketh them vnderstand & know all things .

Concerninig the article following , they doo openly declare what their present opinion is , touching the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament , by saying that the faithfull receiue no more in this time of the Gospell , then did the Fathers before , and vnder the lawe : But certaine it is , that the Fathers receiued not really the body of Iesus Christ , which as then was not made . Therefore the conclusion must follow , that vnder the Gospell the body of Iesus Christ is not really receiued in the Sacrament , which the Ministers call the Sacrament of the Supper .

To the 31. article they answere not : as also they neuer could answere the same : and they must necessarily confesse , that in the power of their faith , they do that which implyeth contradiction . For they maintaine one thing to be present , and not present , at one selfe-same time and place . And their spirituall ( or rather phantasticke ) presence , maketh nothing to the purpose . For ( according to their doctrine ) the body cannot be present but with it measures , locally , difinitiuely , and corporally : otherwise the body should be wholly abrogate and corrupted . And the maner of it beeing there spiritually , would not make , that the body is not there : or otherwise they falsly say it is present in the Supper , and abuse the world . Wherefore it is necessarie , if the body be there ( yea spiritually ) and their doctrine of the nature of a body be true , that the body of Iesus Christ be corporally , difinitiuely , and locally in the Supper . Moreouer , for as much as it is absent according to their confession : it followeth , that it is not there present . And to conclude , the Ministers say , that it is there , and not there . And for the full solution , ( without entering into the principall of the Argument ) they suppose to escape , by obiecting to the Doctors , some words of the breuiarie , which the Doctors haue not yet seene . The Ministers ( they thinke ) haue found them in some breuiarie of Monkes , and remember when they were in the Couent , that they were so accustomed to sing and say . But although such things were found in the breuiaries , vsed in the Romane Church , such maner of speech might be defended , in the sence which the Fathers haue giuen , when they said , that the Apostles Conficiunt corpus Christi : do make the body of Christ , as the scripture it selfe saith : that they baptise , forgiue sinnes , and saue those whom they conuerted : which is meant , as the Ministers of God . Who of his owne authoritie , and as Maister , baptiseth , forgiueth sinnes , and iustifieth the faithfull persons .

Where the Ministers do maruell , that the Doctors call faith a humane vertue , ( the great and maruellous effects it worketh considered ) : the Doctors say , that the Ministers haue no great cause to maruell thereat : seeing that euerie worke , in as much as it is in man , and that he therein worketh together with God , is iudged and reputed humane . Also the scripture calleth the faith of man , the worke of man . The Doctors shewe vnto the Ministers , that after their wonted maner , they dwell alwaies on small things , and leaue that which is principall in the matter : being ignorant ( or dissembling ignorance ) where lyeth the difficultie of that is handled . As they do in their answere vpon the argument proposed by the Doctors : whereby they obiect , that the Ministers by their faith ( call they it diuine or humane ) may doo more then God can do : wherevnto the Ministers ( without touching the point ) do answere with songs .

In the 32. article , the Ministers lightly passe ouer many obiectious made them by the Doctors . Whether there bee superfluitie , or repetition in them , or whether they be impertinent , let the reader iudge . But for this cause the Doctors will not cease , to require eftsoones the Ministers , that they bring some passage of the scripture , to ground that God cannot make one body to be in two places : seeing that this consequence is ouerfoolish and ridiculous : God cannot lye . Therefore can he not make one bodie to be in two places . For so should they make their assumption . Now God hath said and ordained , that one body cannot be in two places : therefore can he not make it so to be . But neuer will they instruct by the truth of the Assumption or Minor Proposition : the contrarie whereof hath bene sufficiently verified by many testimonies of the scripture . The Doctors also require the Ministers to produce some Father , yea some man , euer reputed Catholique , which hath dared to pronounce , that God could not make one body to be in two places . For full answere , the said Ministers can bring forth none which euer hath vsed such a speech , except S. Augustine , but by them falsly alledged , both touching the letter , & the sence of the letter . The Doctors will not cease to beate both into the Ministers , and also all persons ; that there is no place of scripture found , nor booke of any auncient Father , that God cannot make one body to be in diuers places .

Concerning the last article , the Doctors haue resolued to shewe by the pure and expresse word of God , expounded by common consent of all antiquitie , that our Lord did institute the Sacrament and sacrifice of the Aultar , and will teach the effect and vertue of the Masse , according to the institution and ordinance of Iesus Christ . And will make it also to be vnderstood , that the Ministers haue polluted and defiled the Sacrament by Iesus Christ instiruted . And that the Supper which the Ministers maintaine , is no way the Sacrament , but a prophanation of holy things , containing execrable blasphemie : whereof the whole world ought to haue horror .

Sunday , the 12. of Iuly , in the yeare aforesaid .

The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors , sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers , the 22. day of Iuly , about fiue of the Clocke in the enening . Anno. 1560.

THe Ministers , before they answere particularly to the obiections and slaunders of the Doctors , seeing that each way , and causelesse , they taxe them for blasphemers : haue aduised to tell them in the beginning of theyr answere , that to bee wronged by them , they hold it not so great an iniurie , nor themselues the more blasphemers , for being so holden and reputed by them : no more then our Lord Iesus Christ , because he was Act. 7. so pronounced by Caiphas the high Priest , and S. St●phen , to whom the like crime was imputed by the enemies of 1. King . 21. truth : And Naboth who was likewise accused to haue blasphemed God and the king , albeit he was innocent . For it is the manner of all them which hate the truth , and the light , to blaspheme that which they vnderstand not ( as thereof 1 ▪ Pet. 2. write S. Peter and S. Iude ) and to giue the raines sometimes to their furie : so that they shamelesly denie things most apparant , and confesse others concerning the same , which bee straunge and absurd . Which thing is seene to haue befallen the Doctors about the Ministers : whom they neither can heare attentiuely , nor iudge of rightly . And the full end of their purpose ( it seemeth ) is , to contradict them indifferently in all things , and to say without any examination or iudgement , that whatsoeuer they produce , is blasphemy and lies . For the Ministers speaking of the omnipotencie of God , according to that they haue learned thereof , and is contained in the scriptures , haue euer said , that God is almightie , in as much as he can do ( without any exception ) whatsoeuer he will : and that there is no power in heauen nor in earth , which is able to let , alter , or in any maner or wise hinder the full effect and perfect execution of his eternall & vnchangeable counsailes . But neuerthelesse , that his omnipotencie must not be stretched without any discretion or distinction , to all the things generally which men can conceiue , or in their foolish phantasies imagine : but to those onely , which neither are , nor can be contrarie to his iustice , to his goodnesse , to his wisedome : nor consequently to his holy and eternall will , wisedome , and truth : which is , and euer shal be , to doo all things well and wisely , with number , waight , and measure : and without that there is any inequitie , disorder , or contradiction in whatsoeuer he doth . All which things being well vnderstood and considered , will discharge the Ministers among all good and iust people , from the s●aunders which the Doctors impose vpon them , and fal●ly published , to make them odious to all the world , and stirre vp publike hate against them . Wherefore , to make their slaunders more like to truth : by adding and diminishing , they change and alter almost the whole meaning of the Ministers : well knowing , that otherwise they could neuer haue meane to ground their slaunders , nor to giue any colour or likelihood therevnto : which thing shall now appeare by the deduction and particular confutation of the pretended blasphemies , obiected to the Ministers , by the said Doctors .

First the Doctors accuse the Ministers , in that they haue said , that the omnipotencie of God ought not to be measured , but by the things onely which bee agreeable to his will , and are not derogate either to his wisedome , his truth , his nature : nor to the order which hee hath established in the world . And to verifie their accusation and slaunder , they breake in two this whole sentence , and take thereof but the last part onely , the which they haue seperated from those going before , wherewith it was conioyned expresly by the Ministers ; the more clearely to expound and shewe , how the omnipotencie of God ought to be knowne , beleeued , and adored of all the world . Moreouer , they haue not taken , nor vnderstood the word [ Order ] as doo the Ministers . Whereby the Ministers haue willed to signifie the estate and disposition , which God by his prouidence , and eternall , and vnchangeable will , hath established , conserueth , and entertaineth in all things : rightly to gouerne , and let that no confusion happen in his workes , euen as S. Augustine hath defined it in his bookes De Ordine : and hee himselfe hath vsed the same in the fift booke of his confessions . Which the Doctors not vnderstanding , haue reduced that which the Ministers thereof said , to the ordinarie and wonted course of nature , and to the mouing of creatures which bee in the world .

And to giue exception to the doctrine aforesaid , they obiect the myracles which God doth aboue nature : and thereof inferre , that God doth , and can doo many things against the order by him established and decreed .

Whervnto the Ministers answer ; that myracles , albeit they be done beyond & aboue the ordinary course of nature , yet are they not done against the order aforesaid . For as much as all things reduced to the prouidence , and ordinance of God , are well done and ordained , although that the reason and order therein , be oftentimes vnknowne to men : which Ecclesi. 3. Salomon wrote saying : God maketh all things good in their season . Wherevnto may be also applied , that which is read in the booke of Sentences of S. Augustine . Sent. 283. and 284. God who is the Creator and conseruer of nature , doth nothing in his myracles which are against nature . And it followeth not , that that which is new to custome , is contrary and repugnant to reason , &c. If the Doctors will know more thereof , let them reade the two bookes of Order ; which this holy man composed : and that which he wrote concerning myracles , in the fift and sixt Chapter of his third booke of the Trinitie . This answere shall serue for confutation of two other pretended blasphemies , which follow in the obiection of the Doctors .

Concerning the fourth , the Ministers for answer say , that the will of God ( after the doctrine of Diuines ) may in two sorts be considered : to wit , according to that which by words , signes , and effects , is declared to men : and according to that which is reteined & hidden in himselfe . The one is called the will knowne by signes : and the other the will of the good pleasure of God . For the first consideration the Ministers do confesse ( as heeretofore they haue to the Doctors ) that God can do many things , which he will not do . But as touching the other , they say : that it is equall to his power : as is also his power ( in this respect ) equall to his will . According to which consideration , the sentence of Tertullian alledged by the Ministers , and to the Monarchians ill applied by the Doctors , ought to be vnderstood and expounded : As all those may iudge , which attentiuely shall read the passage by the Ministers produced . Who to answer one slaunder of the said Doctors , which accuse them to haue wronged the auncient Fathers , in saying that they excepted some causes of the omnipotencie of Cod : are yet constrained here to repeate , that which Theodoret saith thereof in the 3. Dialogues who writeth as followeth . It must not be said without any determination , that all things are possible to God . For who so absolutely saith this , comprehendeth all things , as well good as bad , which no way ought to be attributed to God : whereby it appeareth , that this good author , and the other , before alledged by the Ministers , haue not indifferently submitted all things to the power of God : but excepted from the same , whatsoeuer is contrary to his will and essence .

To be briefe , but one meane there is to appease the difference between the Ministers , who say that it is impossible for one body to be in diuers places at one instant : and the Doctors , which affirme the contrary , to wit , that the Doctors ( without taking so long circuit ) loosing so many words , and alledging so many superfluous things , do proue briefly by one only passage of scripture , that God willeth the same .

Whether the Ministers haue well or euilly alledged Saint Augustine , to proue that a body cannot be without place and measures : and also whether they haue well or euilly said and defended , that quantitie is essentiall to a body , and not accidentall ( as hold the Doctors ) they leaue the iudgement to the Readers of the Actes of this Conference .

Touching that which followeth in the writing of the Doctors : to wit , that there is no place aboue the heauens , that Iesus Christ is not therein comprised nor conteined , that bodies and spirites bee indifferently there , without any distinction or distance of place : the Ministers say , that touching all these points , they rather beleeue the scripture , and expresse word of God ( by them alledged ) then all the subtilties & sophistries of vaine Philosophie , which the Doctors , or others can propose . Ioyned herevnto , that it is expresly conteined & taught in one of the articles of our faith : where it is said ; From whence he shall come to iudge the quick & the dead . Wherevpon must bee noted , that there is [ Vnde ] an Aduerbe signifying place .

As touching the 4. and 5. articles , to know whether the Ministers haue ought imposed vpon the Doctors which is not true , they send backe the readers to the precedent conference . And also to know in what sence , and to what end , the auncient Fathers haue bene alledged by the said Ministers ; which they may easily perceiue by the reading , and diligent obseruation of the passages and sentences of the said Fathers there inserted .

For the 6. article , wherein the Doctors had rather confesse their Canons to be false , then ( accusing their authoritie ) to auouch that the body of Iesus Christ is a true dody , and that to be such , it ought necessarily to bee in one certaine place : the Ministers answere , that by the obseruation of the place of S. Augustine , ( whence the said Canon is taken ) it is easie to iudge , that the word [ Oportet ] is there much more conuenient , then that of [ Potest ] .

To the 8. article , the Ministers answere , that a substance is not without quantitie , and whiles it is such , and so remaineth , it cannot any waies be a body . And the reason is , because that of the substance , and that of the quantitie , are two diuers predicaments : vnder which , one selfe-same thing , for one selfesame respect , cannot be any way comprised . Moreouer , Iesus Christ alledged no other reason to shewe that his body was not a spirit , but that hee had members and parts , which in respect of their measures , might bee handled and touched . Whence it followeth , that without this , a substance cannot be a body . And as touching the difference which by the Doctors opinion should remaine betweene our soules and our bodies exempted from quantitie , ( if that were possible ) the Ministers say , that although they were substances both in number and different , they should neuerthelesse be like , as touching the kinde : and that the one and the other should be contained vnder the kinde of an incorporeall substance .

The Ministers passe ouer the 9. article , because it is but a repetition , and that they haue largely answered what the Doctors there repeate .

To the 10. article , the Ministers answere , that the consequence whereof is the question , cannot bee otherwise defended by the Doctors , but by the rule which saith : that of one absurditie may all things be inferred . Moreouer , they complaine of time , which the Doctors make them loose , by reading so many things wherevnto they haue alreadie answered , and which it seemeth they repeate not for any other ende , then to fill vp paper , and to make men thinke they say something .

For first the Euangelist saith not ( as the Doctors pretend ) that Iesus Christ entered by the shut doores : but onely that he came , the gates beeing shut . So that he speaketh nothing there of the maner of his entry , nor how the doores were opened , or other place about the house by the which he entered . And all that which the Doctors say , cannot be grounded neither vpon the scripture , nor vpon any authoritie of all the auncient Fathers by them alledged : which bee more against them , then with them . And for conclusion , they haue no other foundation of their saying , then their owne coniectures and imaginations , and the false interpretations which they giue to the writings of the Fathers . To the faith wherof they would gladly constraine & subiect the Church : to the end , that hauing laid that foundation , they might afterwards build therevpon , all the absurdities and errors they shall delight in touching the same . And where they presuppose when Christ entered the shut doores , walked vpon the waters , and went out of the Sepulchre : that such myracles were done rather in the person , then in the other things . Iustine writeth the contrarie , saying : that without any change happened , either in his body , or in that of S. Peter , he made by his diuine power the Sea against nature , to serue him to walke . As also S. Hillary to the same purpose saith : That by his power hee made all things passeable . Wherevnto likewise agreeth S. Iohn Chrisostome , attributing all that to diuine power , and freely confessing that hee knew not the maner and the fashion thereof . By meanes whereof , the Ministers are much abashed , that the Doctors are so presumptuous to determine a thing which by the scripture and Fathers hath bene left vndecided : and wherein ( as S. Hillary saith wisely ) sence and words do faile , & the truth of the deed , exceedeth the capacitie of humane reason . How dare then the Doctors so boldly say , that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores ; that there was penitration of dimensions ; that two bodies were in one selfe-same place ? Seeing that of all that , neither in the scripture , nor in the auncient Fathers , there is not one onely sillable : and that ( as is said ) the Fathers do confesse , that their vnderstanding and sence were too feeble to comprehend or declare the reason of such a my sterie .

As touching the birth of Iesus Christ , the Ministers repose themselues vpon the scripture , which saith clearly , that the Virgin was with childe , that she brought forth , that shee gaue sucke , and that Apertaest vulua , the wombe is opened in the child-birth . They adde , that the same doth nought derogate nor preiudice her virginitie and purenesse , which consisteth in this point onely , that shee knew not , not was knowne of any man , Moreouer , they say that in beleeuing the same , they follow the scripture : and consequently they cannot erre , nor bee heretikes : nor they likewise which subiect and subdue their sence to the word of God : as in this haue done the Fathers which are by them alledged .

In the following article proposed by the Doctors , touching the manner of the resurrection of Iesus Christ , there is nothing but coniectures , slaunders , & repetitions , troublesome and superfluous , which the Ministers by their former answeres haue largely satisfied .

All that which afterwards followeth in the writings of the Doctors , are but iniuries and scoffes , in stead of reasons and arguments : which is the last recourse of contentious spirits : who seeing themselues destitute of reason , and vnable to giue place to the truth , defend themselues by clamours and slaunders .

Some reason should the Doctors haue for that which they say concerning the word Aphantos , if there followed Autois : but that which the Euangelist saith Ap'auton , sheweth clearely , that the interpretation of the said place , and vnderstanding of S. Ambrose , ( where vnto the Ministers agree ) is better then that of the Doctors .

As touching the opening of the heauens , the Ministers answere , that ( vsing the language of the scripture , which saith clearely , that in the baptisme of Iesus Christ , the heauens were clouen asunder , and then opned , when S. Stephen was stoned ) they cannot faile . And to apply to the ayre the signification of heauen , is a humane imagination . This also seemeth , should diminish the Maiestie of God , and of Iesus Christ , who is lifted vp aboue all the heauens , to establish so lowe as the ayre , the Throne of his Maiestie . And there is no likelyhood in that which the Doctors say , touching the being of two bodies in one selfe-same place ; and that which the Ministers say of the sight of Stephen , which extended euen to the heauens : for as much as the one is a myracle of the power of God in nature , and the other a wonder against nature , and the will of God .

The Doctors in the article following , do falsly impute to the Ministers , that they affirmed , it was a thing impossible for God to make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle : for they neuer touched this point in theyr former answeres , but that part of the sentence onely , where it is spoken of rich men . Now to answere too , and resolue their obiections , the Ministers say , that euen as God can saue a rich man , by chaunging him , and emptying his heart of so much vaine trust and presumption , as is therein , and whereof beeing grosse and filled , hee is vncapeable to enter into the Kingdome of heauen : so to him it is also easie , to make a Camell passe through the eye of a needle , hauing circumcised and pared off the grossenesse thereof , and other things which might hinder the same to passe . ******

First , that the Supper which is celebrated in the reformed Church , is the true institution and ordinance of the sonne of God .

Afterwards , that the end for which it was instituted , is to assure the faithfull of the true participation which they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ , crucified for their saluation , and in his bloud shead for the remission of their sinnes ; and for the confirmation of the new couenant , which God hath made with his people .

Thirdly they say , that it is necessarie that the bread and wine abide in their proper substance , and that after consecration : otherwise they cannot be Sacraments of the body and bloud of Christ .

Lastly the Ministers say , that the vnbeleeuers presenting themselues at the Supper , by meanes of their vnbeliefe , can there no other thing receiue , then the outward signes of bread and wine , and that to their iudgement and condemnation .

The Ministers on the other side propose vnto them touching the Masse , that such as it is , and now celebrated in the Romance Church , it is nothing but a humane inuention and tradition .

Also , that it is a corruption and prophanation , as well of the holy Supper of our Lord Iesus Christ , as of the true and lawfull vse thereof .

Also , that it is an abuse of the Priesthood of Popish Priests , and that there is no other Priesthood in the new Testament ordained , to get and obtaine remission of sinnes ; nor also to make intercession , and by prayers and merits to obtaine the fauour of God , then the onely Priesthood of Iesus Christ .

They say moreouer , that it is a blasphemie and sacriledge , but of the sacrifice of the Romish Priests , and that there is no other oblation , then that which Iesus Christ once made with his body vpon the Crosse ; by which the wrath of God could be appeased , his iustice satisfied , sinners reconciled to God , sinnes pardoned , and the hand-writing of eternall death cancelled and abolished .

Also they say , that the seperation of the Priest in the Masse , from the rest of the people , is an abolishment of the Communion of the Supper : and consequently damnable before God .

And to be briefe , the adoration of bread and wine , ( be it in the Masse , or out of the Masse ) is an intollerable Idolatrie .

Two points yet remaine in the writing of the Doctors , whereof the Ministers will admonish them . The one is , that the said Ministers haue neuer found in the scriptures , Iohn , 6. Ephes. 1. that faith is a humane worke , but that it is the worke of God , and a gift which hee bestoweth vpon his elect . The other point is , that they confesse they cannot bring forth one auncient Author , which hath said in expresse termes , that one body could not be in diuers places at one instant : for so much as the contrarie thereof seemed so absurd and straunge vnto them , and so much against the reason and faith which all faithfull people ought to haue , that they neuer thought such an opinion had found place in the heart of any man that was called a Christian .

The Ministers to ende this answere , say that it will much more please them , to handle the questions aforesaid , then to dispute of the opening of doores , of the Sepulchre , or of the heauens ; as to their great griefe , they haue done these dayes passed : and that for two reasons . The one , because that the decyding and resolution of such questions , cannot bee drawne nor gathered out of the scripture . And the second , because it cannot much serue either to the aduancement of the honour and glorie of God , or the edification and instruction of his Church .

Thursday the 25. day of Iuly , in the yeare aforesaid .

The Doctors reply to the writing of the Ministers , sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers , the 25. day of Iuly , about 8. of the clocke in the euening , the yeare , 1566.

WHere the Ministers say , that they doo great wrong to call them blasphemers , seeing thereof they are innocent , as Iesus Christ , S. Stephen , and Naboth , to whome men falsly imputed such like crime . The Doctors say , that the Ministers therein doo imitate the good personages , the Donatists : who still complained of the great iniuries and slaunders which they endured ( said they ) of the Catholikes ; and yet men know by the histories how it was , and how much they were like to Christ , S. Stephen , and Naboth : as may also be knowne the conformitie of the said Ministers , to such holy examples . As much might the Anabaptists say to them of the Church called reformed , when they call them heretikes . And as much might and did Seruetus say , who for his blasphemies was burned at Geneua : reputing himselfe happie to be iudged by Caluin a blasphemer , and to suffer for his doctrine , the paines of death . We must not therfore beleeue that the Ministers are not blasphemers , because more boldly then all other heretikes , they reiect the name of blasphemer : but meet it is to examine whether their doctrine importeth blasphemie or not . Now the Doctors say , that there is no blasphemie worthy of more great execration , then to denie the omnipotencie of God : and no lesse it is then simply to denie that there is a God . So that such deniall importes an Atheisme . For to take from God , that which is proper to his nature , is as much to say , as there is no God . As it well pleaseth S. Basil , writing in one of his Homilies , intituled , That God is not the Author of euill . That it is no lesse blasphemie to say , that God is author of euill , then to say that God is not God . In so much as to take away from God his goodnesse , which to him is naturall , is wholy to take away his diuinitie . The like also may be said of the omnipotencie , that whosoeuer denieth or diminisheth the same , he denieth also his diuinitie .

The question then is , to knowe whether the Ministers will abolish the omnipotencie of God , not in proper termes ( for they seeme to confesse it ) but in affirming that the power of God is measured according to his will , so that he cannot , but that which he will : and other like propositions contained in the precedent answere of the Ministers . Whether the Doctors haue proued such propositions to containe blasphemies or no , they refer them therin to euery man of sound iudgement , who shal be any thing conuersant in holy scriptures , and the bookes of auncient Christians : which shall also be knowne by the Ministers friuolous answeres in their last writing to the Doctors obiections . Who nothing maruel that the Ministers are deceiued in the nature of the omnipotencie , seeing they erre in the foundation , and know not wherein it lyeth , and why God is called almightie . For they haue learned of the scripture ( say they ) that God is almightie , because hee can doo whatsoeuer he will doo : and that nothing can resist him , which is rather as a signe of the power of God . But it is not that ( vnder correction ) wherein it consisteth ; for knowledge whereof , it must be considered according to it obiect : that is to say , according to the things possible to be done : so that there is nothing possible which God cannot do . Now all without any exception , is esteemed possible , wherein is found no contradiction to be , and not to be : and that commeth not by default of the power of God ( which can do all things ) but of the repugnancie of the thing which cannot be . Which the Ministers from the beginning had well said in euery answere : but for that they had answered vpon some Interrogatories that the omnipotencie of God must bee measured by his will , supposing to salue that error , they are plunged in many other errors , out of which ( for not consessing to haue erred ) they cannot rid themselues , without falling into an infinite number of absurdities .

Moreouer , the Ministers deceiue themselues when they will limit the power of God , and not extend it to all things generally , that humane spirit can conceiue or imagine . For contrariwise , it is doubtlesse that the power of God is great aboue all conceit , and imagination of the humane spirit , that it is infinite and incomprehensible , as saith S. Paul : God can do more then we demaund or vnderstand . And where the Ministers say , that God onely can doo all things which are not contrarie to his iustice , wisedome , goodnesse , and truth , and therefore cannot doo generally all things . It hath alreadie beene shewed them , that to bee able to doo things contrarie to the iustice , wisedome , goodnesse , and truth of God , was not power , but weakenesse . And by the selfe-same reason ( as saith Saint Augustine , in the place by the Doctors in theyr former obiection alledged ) that he cannot do such things , it is an argument of his omnipotencie , and not of restraint thereof .

And where the Ministers inferre , that because God cannot do such things , he can ( by consequence ) do nothing ; which is contrarie to his wisedome , and eternall will , which is , and euer shall be , to doo all things well and wisely , with number , waight , and measure , and without that there is any iniustice or contradiction in all that which he doth . Men may see how the Ministers disguise the matter in controuersie , concealing haue couched in their former writing , touching the order established in the world , against which ( said they ) God could doo nothing : and the other words of blasphemie , whereof the Doctors rebuked them , and which they durst not insert in their last answere , because their conscience accused them , and made them know , that such affirmations could not be maintained ; and from which , they cannot escape , but in denying to haue written them , and in accusing the Doctors of slaunder : as if by adding or diminishing , they had altered and chaunged the words of the Ministers . To be purged of which crime , the Doctors pray , that recourse be had to their last obiection , where these words are inserted in the first article .

The which blasphemies are drawne out of the proper words of the Ministers first article . And the Doctors referre them to the conference may bee made of their last writing , with that of the Ministers . So that if it bee found ( as certainly it shall be found ) that the Doctors haue faithfully cyted the proper words of the Ministers writing , which the Ministers themselues will not auouch ; it shall be knowne at the least , that the Ministers haue hitherto maintained blasphemous propositions , and that the Doctors therein haue no way wronged them : hauing pardoned their persons , being content ( of the doctrine ) to say their simple opinion .

The Ministers to shewe that they haue iust cause to accuse the Doctors of slaunder , say first that the Doctors haue broken in two their proposition : which was such , that the omnipotencie of God ought not to be measured , but by the things onely which be agreeable to his will , and be not derogate either to his wisedome , truth , nature , or to the order which he hath willed to establish in the world : and that the Doctors haue not taken but the last part onely . Who for their purgation , say that they haue alwaies considered what was put in difference : to wit , whether God could make one body to be in two places . And to examine the truth of this question , before they put it in writing , they haue reduced the whole to euery part of the Ministers proposition , and haue thus reasoned . God can do all things which are agreeable to his will : the which is knowne ( as the Ministers doo hold ) when there is nothing that derogateth , either to his wisedome , his truth , his nature , or the order by him established in the world . Now one body to bee in two places , derogateth not from the wisedome of God . For God should therefore not leaue to be wise . Also it derogateth not from his truth : for he hath neuer said , that he could not do it : nor from his nature . For although he should do it , hee should not cease to be God . If then there be any repugnancie , it should be , because it should derogate from the order by God established in the world . Which was the cause that they stayed not but on the last article . The Ministers also would not say as the Doctors suppose ) that to be able to make one body to be in two places , was a thing repugnant , either to the wisedome , truth , or nature of God : if not , in that they thinke it to repugne the order by God established in the world . Ioyned heerevnto , that the Ministers hauing put this proposition aboue said , for a rule to knowe what God can doo ; when they would apply this rule to the matter in controuersie , then should they thus say : To which things , that which the Doctors put foorth ( namely that one body , at one selfe-same instant , may be in diuers places ) repugneth . But the Ministers haue only sayd & written , to which , ( that is to say ) order &c. For such relatiue cannot agree , but to the next antecedent . Wherein is clearly seene , that the Ministers runne into the cryme of slaunder , which they falsly obiect to the Doctors .

And whereas the Ministers say , that the Doctors take not the terme of the order established in the world , in the lyke sence , as they vnderstand it : The Doctors say , that they haue taken the terme according to the vnderstanding which the Ministers haue therof giuen : euen as they haue knowne by their words , which they haue heretofore vsed . For when the question was to set forth some myracle done by Iesus Christ , against , or aboue the nature of things created the Ministers haue had alwayes recourse to the common order of nature . As when speech hath bene of the closed doores , of the going out of the Sepulchre , of the wombe of the virgin , and of one body in diuers places ; No other reason to contradict it haue the Ministers alledged , but that it was all against the order established in the world , touching the nature of a body : which cannot be vnderstood , but of the common order which is seene in nature . Therefore the Doctors ( so taking the same , as the Ministers haue sufficiently declared in their former answeres , against the order of nature ▪ ) haue well inferred against the Ministers , that God could not then do a myracle , against the order established in the world . The Doctors know , that the auncient Fathers obserued not this difference , aboue or against nature : as by the testimony of Tertullian here before alledged , appeareth : Where it is said , that God against nature , can make a man flye as well as a byrd . But they will not stay vppon the rygor of wordes , but apply themselues to the Ministers with whome they conferre . Who call it a worke against the order established in the world , one body to be in diuers places , foras much as it withstansteth the common disposition and proprieties of bodies . And by such reason ( say the Doctors ) that all other myracles ought also to be esteemed against the order in the world established : because they be against the common disposition and proprietie of nature .

And yet following the vnderstanding which the Ministers now giue of the order established in the world , for the estate and disposition which God hath established , conserueth and maintaineth all things , by his prouidence and eternall and immutable will , to gouerne all things rightly , and hinder any confusion to happen to his workes . Here againe do the Ministers commit a new blasphemy against the omnipotencie of GOD : for hee can wholly chaunge , vnchaunge , and destroy such order as hee hath established in the world ( albeit hee will neuer do the same ) and make a new world more perfect then this . And were it so , that hee could do nothing against this order , his power should be stinted and limitted . For hee could not do but certaine effects , according to the order which hee had established in the worlde . Which should not happen by the repugnancie of the nature of Creatures : but in as much as God himselfe should bee tyed . And so ( against the scripture ) should his hand be shortened , and his power forced and limitted : From which blasphemy , infinite others issue , as the Doctors when occasion shall serue , haue purposed to shewe .

To the 2. & third blasphemies which the Doctors haue noted , the Ministers say , by the new interpretation of the order of the world , in one word they haue fully answered . Which ( to dissolue the arguments produced by the Doctors ) commeth nothing to the purpose .

And the Ministers passe ouer the alledged places of scriptures , which declare the blasphemie , and dissemble the contradiction of their doctrine , and of that of Caluin , touching the prouidence of God , in respect of the order established in the world . And the Ministers answere not to the Doctors obiection , that from the third blasphemie flow many others ; least in confessing the same , they might heape blasphemie vpon blasphemie , and make their doctrine by this meane , odious toall the world .

For answere to the fourth blasphemie , vse the Ministers a distinction of the will of God , which may two wayes bee considered . The first is called the will knowne by signes : and the other , the will of good pleasure . The Ministers confesse , that according to the first , God can doo more then he will ; and not according to the second , which is ( as they say ) equall to the power of God , & is hidden and vnknowne to men . The which distinction if it ought to haue place , the Doctors obiect , that the foundation of the Ministers , wherevpon they stay the pretended truth of this proposition : God cannot make one body to bee in diuers places , is wholly destroyed . For the Ministers will haue the power of God to be measured according to his will , not according to the second , which is hidden vnto men . It behoueth then , that this be taken according to the first , by the which they confesse that God can do more then he will do . Whereof it followeth , that the rule by them giuen to measure Gods power , is false . For it cannot be measured by his will , seeing he can do more then he will .

Moreouer the Doctors say , that the Ministers should not require them to proue that God hath willed that one body should be in two places , to declare that he could do it . For the Doctors might obiect , that to teach that God may doo something , it needeth not to proue , that he hath formerly willed it . For ( according to the Ministers confession ) God can do more then he will .

The Doctors adde , for as much as the will of God appeareth not to vs , but by signes , words , and effects : and that the order established in the world , according to his prouidence ( as the Ministers agree ) is hidden vnto men : that the Ministers cannot affirme , and shewe , that God hath established such order in the world , that one body may not bee in diuers places . For meete it were they should teach such an ordinance of God , and declaration of his will . Oft times haue the Ministers bene required , to bring one onely place of scripture , where such a will of God is manifest : and where it is said , that hee cannot make one body to bee in diuers places .

As touching the place of Tertullian , the Doctors for vnderstanding thereof , refer themselues to euery man of sound iudgement : and say , that the Ministers haue ill to the purpose alledged Theodoret : and it maketh more against them , then with them . For when he writeth that it must not be indeterminately said , that God can do all things , comprehending therein good and euill ; in that he maketh no restraint of the omnipotencie of God : but contrariwise , doth amplifie the same : in so much , that not to be able to do euil things , is both a vertue and power , as before hath beene largely declared .

Where the Ministers do instant the Doctors to shewe , that God hath willed one body to bee in two places : the Doctors answere , that these are two different questions , whether God can do it : or whether he hath willed it . And when it shall be confessed ( as it ought to bee of all Christians ) that the power is in God , very easie shall it be to shewe the will , by the word , of the Supper , and of the Ascention : which they of the pretended reformed religion haue accustomed to depraue , and disswade men from , by the impossibilitie which they faigne to bee in God , to put one body in two places .

Also the Doctors leaue it to the readers iudgement , whether S. Augustine haue bene cyted by the Ministers to the purpose or no. And to that which concerneth whether ihe quantitie be essentiall to a body , or not : the Doctors ( speaking of a body as doth Philosophers , namely , In predicamento quantitatis ) haue neuer doubted but it is essentiall . But the difficultie is to know , whether to be circumscript in a place certaine , be essentiall to a body ? And the Doctors suppose they haue sufficiently proued that it is not essentiall , but that it is an accident naturall to a body . And they verifie their saying , by the definition of a body , wherein all essentiall reason is comprised : and such it is , that a body is a kinde of firme quantitie of three dimensions , length , breadth , and deepenesse : where no mention is made of the circumscription of place in the saide definition .

What pertaineth to the question concerning places aboue the heauen , the Ministers ( as they are wont ) do lightly passe ouer . And for want of good answere , they wrong the Doctors , calling them Sophisters . And that which they bring to confirme that our Lord is in one place aboue the heauen , is ouer friuolous . For by the same reason might one conclude , that the diuinitie is circumscript . And Aduerbes signifying place , shall be found in the scripture , when it speaketh of the diuinitie , as well as when it speaketh of the humanitie of Iesus Christ .

Where the Ministers impute to the Doctors that they confesse their Canons to be false , it is a manifest slaunder . For the Doctors acknowledge not any Canons , but in as much as they are taken out of the Councels , & other bookes authenticke : and not according as they are extracted of any particular person : as is the polinge of Gratian : wherevnto they giue no credit , but as much as that which hee cyteth deserueth .

For resolution of the 8. article , the Doctors send the Ministers to the schoole of Philosophers , to vnderstand , that in a predicament of substance , there is a body , which is a kind of substance : and in a predicament of quantitie , an other body , which is a kinde of quantitie . And to learne them also , that the body which is of quantitie , is accidentall ( and not essentiall ) to a body of predicament of substance .

Moreouer , the Ministers do erre against all Philosophie , calling a materiall substance , incorporall . But the Doctors will not rest vppon such things , and are much grieued that they haue not to do with people better grounded in Ppilosophie . For that , being such , they could better touch the reason then the Ministers do .

The Doctors doo maintaine the consequence of two bodies in one placle , to infer it for necessarie , that one body may be in two places : for there is like reason , and like inconuenience in the one , as in the other . And therefore if the one be to be done , the other is possible : and so they referre it to the readers iudgements .

Where the Ministers complaine of the time they haue lost in reading the reasons , arguments , and allegations , touching the closed doores , and other articles . The Doctors say , that in the matter in question , the Ministers haue no cause to complaine of ouer-great prolixitie , for feare of loosing time . And that there is matter sufficient to spend the time withall , would they with patience ( bringing with them good will , and all passion excluded ) examine the testimonies of the Auncients , and reasons drawne from the same . But the Doctors do wel proue , that when there is any thing which presseth the Ministers , then set they a good face on the matter , and make semblance to haue right on their side . Moreouer , the Doctors are much amazed , how the Ministers are so bold to say , that Iustin and all the Auncients haue not placed the myracle of the passage of the doores , in the body of Iesus Christ : seeing that Iustin expresly proposeth the question , how it is possible that a thicke bodie is not hindered to passe through the closed doores . In the answere of which question , they conclude the same : that for as much as such myracle was done in the nature of the body of Iesus Christ , the Apostles esteemed it was not a true bodie , but a spirite : as if the bodie had beene transformed into a spirite : which Iustin saith did not happen : but that without any chaunge of nature , such an operation , to passe through the closed doore , was giuen to the body of Iesus Christ by the omnipotencie of God : and Iustin saith not , that any myracle was wrought in the sea , when Iesus walked therevpon : but that by the almightinesse which was in him , he made it walkeable , without any chaunge of the nature , either of his body , or of the sea : although that the myracle were in his body , which against it nature so walked . It is not sufficient to alledge out of S. Hillary , that the power of God made passage to the body of our Lord . For he saith not that onely ; but addeth the manner of the deed ▪ to wit , that the body passed without change or diminishing of it nature , and without hauing any opening . But that by the operation of the almightinesse , he passed notwithstanding , which wrought in his body , piercing the shut and closed places : Nihil ( inquit ) cessit ex solido parietum : nothing ceased ( saith he ) of the firmnesse of the walles : and other like words which he bringeth : of which can no other thing be vnderstood , but a piercing of many bodies . S. Chrisostome expresly disputeth of the body , which against it nature passed through the closed doores , as through the wombe of the virgin , without fraction . And he saith not simply that hee knoweth not wherein the worke consisted ( for he describeth it ) but he amplifieth the power of the worke : and saith , that he cannot comprehend the reason and greatnesse thereof , for as much as it proceeded from the power of the incomprehensible Cod. Concerning this whole point , the Doctors refer them to the reading of the bookes , without more debating thereof against the Ministers : who think alwayes to abuse the ignorance of those which beleeue them , denying or affirming what they thinke good . And it troubleth and grieueth the Doctors , that they are constrained to repeate the former reasons so familiarly , and clearly deducted : But the Ministers euasions so often repeated , enforce them eftsoones to inculeate that , which of these articles ought to be beleeued by the common consent of the Fathers .

The Doctors are abashed at the maner of the Ministers answere : who without regard of that hath bene obiected to them , say what they please , without answering to the arguments of the matter proposed : As they do in the article of the byrth of Iesus Christ : In the deduction wherof the Doctors haue brought many testimonies of the Ancients , which hold , that our Lord ( as he was also there conceaued ) myracuculously issued from the wombe of his mother : And that the said Fathers did witnesse , such byrth to haue bin made without any fraction in the body of the virgin , and condemned of heresie all those which held the contrary . Which thing the Ministers will yet maintain , and for full answere , affirme the same : relying ( as they say ) vpon the scripture , and not daring to say openly , that to cleaue to their proper sence , they reiect the determination of the ancient & primitiue Church . Which is very cleare notwithstanding by their answere to this article : wherein they falsly cyte the scripture , as though it contained , that in the byrth of our Lord , Aperta fuerit vulua virginis : The wombe of the virgin was opened . And where they say , that such an opening repugneth not the corporall virginitie , ( whereof is the question ) they belye the resolution of the auncient Fathers , which haue determined of that deed .

Whether in the Article of the Resurrection there be but coniectures , the reading of the Doctors obiection will witnesse . The which they may see , that desire to know the truth thereof .

Where the Ministers do complaine in the end of the article of the Resurrection , that the Doctors do wrong and scoffe them ; the Doctors doubt not , but the Ministers are sore troubled , that their subtilties and maner of dealing are discouered : the which , did men well vnderstand , they would not suffer themselues so easily ( as heeretofore ) to be deceiued .

The solution which the Ministers pretend to giue , because it is not Aphantos autois , but Ap'auton is impertinent . For howsoeuer it was , our Lord was inuisible to his Disciples , were it by suddaine vanishing , or otherwise ; the which vanishing , in a body present to perfect sight , cannot be done , except the body be made to them inuisible . And howsoeuer it be , the Greeke Text beareth inuisible and vnapparant .

As touching the article of the opening of the heauens , the Ministers as they are wont , answere not to the purpose : For it is not said , that the heauens were clouen asunder , or opened , when he ascended thither : as at the baptisme of Iesus Christ , and when it is spoken of the vision of S. Stephen . But the scripture saith expresly , that Iesus Christ pierced the Heauens , and not that the Heauens were opened vnto him . And the Ministers cannot forbeare to slaunder the Doctors , in deprauing the vnderstanding of their writings : as is seene in this present answere , where the Ministers faineto haue vnderstood , in that place of the scripture , mencioning Iesus Christ to haue pierced the Heauens , that the Doctors by the name of Heauen , will haue the ayre to be signified : which the Doctors neuer thought : but haue oft times sayd , that when it mencioneth the opening of the Heauens , by the Heauens it vnderstandeth the aire : which so ought not to be applyed , when our Lorde is sayd to haue pierced the Heauens .

By such manner of answere do the Ministers thinke , to cause the force of the Doctors reason to be forgotten . Who said thus : If when it is said in the scripture that the Heauens were opened , the words ought strictly to be taken , and truly to be vnderstood , that the heauens were opened : It likewise behoueth , when the scripture saith , that Iesus Christ pierced the Heauens , that the word [ pierced ] be taken in it proper signification and strictly : which thing directly repugneth the diuision or opening , as things opposed one to another . To which reason , there is no answere giuen , more then ordinarily is to the other arguments of the said Doctors .

Touching the difference which the Ministers put , between the sight of S. Stephen , which stretched euen to the height of Heauen , and the being of two bodies in one selfe-same place : and that the one is a myracle in nature : and the other a wonder against nature , and the will of GOD . The Ministers ( good Secretaries of Gods Counsaile and will ) should do much , if they could teach the Doctors , that God hath willed the one , and that hee cannot will the other : and then shall there bee reason for their saying , to shewe the difference they haue assigned betweene these two .

The inconstancie of the Ministers is knowne in the article where the Camell is mentioned : to wit , whether God can cause him to passe through the eye of a needle . For in the Ministers first answere , made without any distinction , haue they answered , that to make a Camell ( or Cable ) to passe through the eye of a needle , was a thing impossible with God . And in the second answere do they alledge , that Iesus Christ , ( in saying , that what was impossible with men , was possible with God ) no other thing pretended , but to answere the question which his Disciples had proposed : namely , who could be saued : answering wherevnto , he said : that it was impossible with men : and that such sentence of Iesus Christ , ought not to be vnderstood , but of the saluation and conuersion of rich men onely : which exclusiue speech ( when the Ministers affirme , that our Lord saying , that what is impossible to man , is possible with God ; must not be vnderstood , but of the saluation of the rich ) clearely sheweth , that the Ministers intent was to say by their answere , that our Lord ment not to comprehend vnder this proposition ; [ That which is impossible with men , is possible with God ] : the possibilitie to make a Camell passe through the eye of a needle . As if this proposition were not to be generally vnderstood , whereof our Lord inferreth this particular . It is possible with God to saue a rich man . And hee himselfe by expresse words speaketh generally : Omnia apud Deum possibilia snnt . With God are all things possible . The Doctors desire , that they which can read this present writing , would note the starting holes of the Ministers , who wontedly auouch , and denie the errors they maintaine , when they are thereof by the trueth conuinced .

Now the Ministers ( not daring to persist in defence , that God cannot cause a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle ) haue inuented a very foolish interpretation , in confessing that God can do it , but that the meanes should be in this , that God might pare off and diminish the grossenesse of a Camell , and all other things which might hinder it passage there . But that glose the Text cannot brooke : For our Lord speaketh of a thing wholy impossible to men : which should not be . For although to make and bring forth a Camell of so little stature and bignesse , that he might passe thorow the eye of a needle , were a thing impossible with man , yet if God brought forth such a one , or if he did so much diminish the greatnesse and grossenesse of a Camell , and that man might hold the same , he might well cause it to passe . But the question is not of the production of a Camell , or of making him great or small ; but of causing him to passe . The which ( were hee so little ) should not be a myracle as touching the passage , but onely touching the production of such a liuing Creature , or the chaunging of his quantitie . Also in taking this name Camelus , for a Cable ( as Caluin thought best ) the absurditie of this new exposition shall better appeare . For well may man so much lessen a Cable , by the detraction of it matter , that in the ende he may make it passe through the eye of a needle . Moreouer it should be easie for a man to make a needle , whose eye should be so large , that a Cable , ( yea a Camell ) might passe there through . But the scripture speaketh of things impossible with man , and as they are in their owne nature . Therefore as the eye of a needle must be taken in it little and straight quantitie : so also must a Camell or Cable , be taken in it naturall grossenesse . And neuer were the Auncients so subtill , to in t uent such ingenious interpretations , as one could not reade without laughter . But the Ministers cannot escape with this goodly exposition , that one seeth not clearly , they deny the power of God can stretch so farre , that it can make a Camel in his crookednesse and thicknesse , to passe through the eye of a needle : but only when hee shall by the power of God , be brought into quantitie proportionable to the eye of a needle , which is against the expresse Text of the scripture , and against the exposition of auncient interpreters : although that besides the litterall sence , the Camel be sometimes allegorically expounded by them . But the allegorical exposition of that place , taketh not away the truth of the litteral sence , no more then the acts of Iesus Christ cease to be true acts , albeit the interpreters expound them allegorically . Wherin the Ministers are deceiued , supposing , because they haue read in S. Ierome some interpretation besides the litteral , that Li. de vera Circoncisione ad finem . the comparison which our Lord in this behalf hath vsed , was a parable , which is false . For a true argument it is which our Lord deduceth , to shewe his power to saue a rich man : because this is a thing more hard , than to cause a Camel to passe through the eye of a needle .

The Doctors to conclude vpon this article , do eftsoones shew vnto the Ministers , that of the deniall of the stretching forth of Gods almightinesse , many other absurdities , which cannot otherwise be termed then blasphemies , do follow . Namely , that two bodies cannot be in one place by the almightinesse of God : that GOD cannot make a bodie without circumscription of place : that Iesus Christ entered not , nor could enter through the closed doores : arose not , nor could a●●●e , without the stone were rowled from the graue : that hee went not , nor could goe out of the Virgines wombe , without fraction in the bodie of his mother : that hee pearced not , nor could pearce the heauens , without opening of them : that he made not , nor could make a bodie ( no not his owne ) inuisible : that he could not cause a Camell ( or Cable ) retaining it grossenesse , to passe through the eye of a needle . Which things do follow the deniall of his almightinesse , and is an execrable blasphemie , and very Atheisme . Behold the enormious absurdities which they are constrained to confesse , that denie the real presence of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar ; which the Doctors pray to be well considered by the readers of this present writing .

Concerning that which the Ministers make question of in the last article of their answere , that the Doctors doo call faith a humane worke , seeing that it is of God : they ought no more to wonder thereat , then infinit other truthes , which seemeth straunge to them because their doctrine is founded on the grounds of error : among which , one of the principall is ; That man hath not free will : that man to thinke well , will well , and doo well , worketh not together with God : against many places of scripture which setteth downe man co-working with God : and for his faith and workes , hath of him reward and recompence . The which , without wandring from the purpose , shall more aptly be handled in an other place . The Doctors like well , that the Ministers do confesse that the ancient Fathers haue neuer said , God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places : which thing is true . But the reason which they yeeld , why they haue not so sayd , is of the Ministers owne forge and inuention . It remaineth , that they shewe vs so much by the testimony of the Scripture concerning the same : For no more is it therein found , then in the writings of the Fathers . Whereof the said Ministers haue bene oft admonished , who say they build all their doctrine vpon the word of God .

Had the Ministers in the beginning confessed the truth of the Omnipotencie , or else had they said , that they acknowledged that Iesus Christ could cause his body to be aboue , and here belowe in the Sacrament , really and truly , if he so would : than had it bene needlesse to handle these former questions , which neuerthelesse , are not of small consequence , as the Ministers do esteeme them . Which thing appeareth by the writings of the Fathers , who haue diligently handled these places , and strengthened themselues therewith against heretiques : But because the Ministers would not agree , that God can make one body to be at one selfe-same instant , in diuers places ; And that if the Doctors had begunne to declare his will to haue bene such , that he had ordained the body of Iesus Christ should be in Heauen , and in the Sacrament . The Ministers might haue sayd ( as they of theyr sect doo say ) that God hath not willed it , because he could not . The Doctors had rather first intreate of the Almightinesse , then of the will . And seeing the matter of the Omnipotencie hath bene sufficitntly tossed , they are determined to prooue , that Iesus Christ hath willed and ordained , that his bodie should bee in diuers places . In the probation of which thing , when they haue vnderstood the Ministers opinion , of that they holde in theyr Churches touching that matter , they will enter into the former Conference , to the ende that theyr trauell be not in vaine . For that they follow not ( it seemeth to the Doctors ) that which Caluin and Beza holde concerning the same . For which cause ( say the Doctors ) that the Ministers abuse the people : fayning to teach that , which in the reformed Church they haue wontedly done : and yet their answere addressed to the Doctors , sheweth the contrary .

In that the Ministers repute themselues happie , to endure such reproaches , to be esteemed seducers by the Doctors , let them remember , that all sects may say as much therof as they : whether by right or wrong , it wil appeare by examination of their doctrine .

The Doctors resolution touching the article of the Almightinesse of God , in regard of foure questions by them propounded to the Ministers : which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and blood of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament .

EVery man which can patiently consider by the scriptures , beginning at Abraham , the Father of the faithfull , vnto the last writing of the Apostles : shall finde , that the well spring of all infidelitie hath ordinarily beene , to haue regarde to the proprietie of creatures , and common order of nature , to contradict , doubt of , and distrust the word of God . For which reason , Tertullian and other former Christians sayd well : that Phylosophers , and they that stayed vpon things naturall , were the Fathers of Hereticques : because the contemplation of Nature , engendered almost all heresies : On the contrary side , shall one perceiue the almightinesse of God , to be proposed by the scriptures , as a sharpe sword , cutting in peeces all arguments which might come of naturall reasons : for a certaine and finall resolution to beleeue whatsoeuer is couched & borne by the said word of God , albeit impossible & incomprehensible to euery creature : and faith to be staied on that same power in all doubts , which might be offered or proposed .

All the difficultie which Abraham made vppon the promises of God to him , did proceed of certaine impossibilities of nature , which he sawe in himselfe and in his wife . And it seemeth hee had alwayes regard therevnto , vntill God vsed his authoritie , and said vnto him : I am God all sufficient . Is any thing hard to the Lord ? After this rebuke and remonstrance of God , Abraham did then forget all consideration of the proprieties of his nature , and laid hold on this shield of faith : which is to knowe , and to bee fully perswaded , that God is almightie , to whom nothing is hard or impossible . And after that , when question was of killing his onely sonne ; albeit hee had great apparance of contradiction in nature , and in the word of God , which had beene giuen him : to wit , that of the seed of that sonne should hee proceed , which should giue blessing to all Nations , and notwithstanding hee must kill him before hee had any lynage of his bodie issued . Neuerthelesse hee made not protestation , opposing that contradiction of nature , and of the word of GOD , to maintaine , that that which had beene said and promised vnto him was impossible : but hee had recourse to the stay of faith , and of the faithfull ( saieth Saint Paul to the Hebrewes ) that is to say , to the omnipotencie , esteeming that God had the meane to make true both the one and the other : namely , to cause his sonne to die , and rise againe , to drawe from him afterwards lynage and posteritie : although as yet there had beene no example of the resurrection .

Likewise the consideration of creatures , and the order of nature which Moses sawe before him , made him fall into Infidelitie . And God shewed him his fault , in that he would deny him the power , long time with flesh to nourish his people : because the nature of the wildernes did not afford it : and did admonish him to lift vp his spirit to the omnipotency against nature , and there to assure his faith . Moses said : Sixe hundred thousand people there are , among whom I am : and thou saist , I will giue them flesh , that they may eate therof a month long : Shall the sheepe and beeues be slaine to find them ? Either shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them to suffice them ? God answered Moses , Is the hand of the Lord shortnea ? thou shalt now see whether my word shall come to passe , or no. In like maner , as often as one shall reade in the scriptures , that the people , or other particular persons , fell into vnbeliefe or distrust of Gods helpe and succor , he shall know , that the cause hath ordinarily bene , for staying vpon the nature and disposition of humane things : without sufficient apprehension of the power of God . And contrariwise , to confirme them , that this power was set before their eyes : diuers examples therof haue heretofore bene brought out of Esay and Ieremy .

In the new Testament , the Virgin hauing regard to the naturall maner of conceauing , seemed to doubt of the mean of her conception . And she said : How shall this thing be , seeing I know not man ? And the Angell answering , sayd vnto her : Nothing shall bee impossible with God . Drawing her backe from the cogitations of naturall proprieties , which is the roote of Infidelitie , and exhorting her to thinke vpon the Almightinesse of God , which is the chiefe stone and rocke , wherevpon true Religion is builded .

Which thing considered : The Doctors for their resolution of this conference with the Ministers , do say : that with good right hath the omnipotency of God very expresly obtained the first place , among the articles of the Apostles Creed : as being that , by which all the other articles of faith , and the workes of God aboue nature , are belieued and maintained , against all contradiction and repugnancy of nature , or reason , which may be pretended or alledged : And without the which , any article of faith , or any the workes of God surpassing nature , and contained in the scriptures , could not be defended and maintained , against the assaults of malice , and depriuation of humane spirit : which alwayes tendeth to infidelitie , and disobedience towards his God : and from his byrth is prompt and subtil to depraue and slaunder his word and commandement . By meanes whereof ( say the Doctors ) that so much the more ought euery Christian to inforce himself , to hold and keep that article entire , without suffring any to make any exception therof , or to restrain it at his pleasure , vnder any pretexts of ( I know not what ) repugnancies of creatures ; which humane spirit proposeth , for want of vnderstanding and comprehending the greatnesse of God . For the scriptures do euer present vnto vs this omnipotency generally without any restraint , in regard of creatures , or of the workes of God . And teacheth vs , that the creatures is in his hands , as the clayin the hand of the Potter , to receiue such change and forme , as shall seeme good vnto him : without that Esay 45. Iere. 18. Rom. 9. they can say , Why hast thou made or chaunged mee thus ! Such similitude and words the Prophet Esay , Ieremy , and S. Paul do vse .

Moreouer , the Doctors say : that men must yet lesse be lycensed to limit and bound the foresayd power , according to the contradictions which in theyr writings they imagine of the nature , wisedome , or eternall will of God : Seeing that the scripture saith plainly , that God can doo more then wee vnderstand , and mocketh at them which will entermeddle with the nature , wisedome , and eternall will of God : as though they had bene of counsell with him to know thereby the decisions and ordinances , more then his owne word pronounceth thereof . And S. Paule in the end constraineth with himselfe euery spirit created , to cry out , confessing his ignorance of the power , wisedome , Rom. 11. and workes of God : Oh the deepnesse of the riches , wisedome , and knowledge of God , how incomprehensible are his iudgements , and his wayes past finding out . For who is he that hath knowne the minde of the Lord ? Or who hath bene his Counsailor ? And an excellent saying of S. Augustine vpon this point is to be noted , who in an Epistle Advolusianum saith : We confesse , that God can doo something , the which in searching , wee cannot finde . As if hee would say : to wit , if God can doo something , albeit in our naturall iudgement wee thinke it impossible : wee esteeme it neuerthelesse that it is possible : but that the capacitie of our spirit cannot comprehend the same .

The Doctors say asso , that by such libertie and meanes that any will exempt what hee liketh from the power of God , vnder colour of some impossibilities of nature , or of repugnancie , after his owne iudgement , to the nature , wisedome , and will of God : each one will studie to faine the like , in all matters of faith : wherein such causes may bee easily inuented , and well disguised . And that it is so , from the first article of the Creed vnto the last , let all the heresies which haue bene there contradicted , be from time to time obserued , and it will appeare , that all haue held this way and method , to fight against euery article of faith , as impossible to God : respecting the impossibilitie of the worke according to nature , and some pretended inconueniences , against the nature , wisedome , will , and glorie of God .

The Doctors employ to this effect , the two first bookes of Tertullian : one whereof is , of the incarnation of Iesus Christ : and the other , against the Marcionists of the resurrection of the flesh : In which the Christian reader shall perceiue the like arguments of those Marcionists , endeuouring to exempt from the omnipotencie of God , the incarnation of our Lord , and the resurrection of the flesh .

Then to conclude this point , the Doctors do forewarne euery Christian , that they adde not ought to the scriptures , which speake alwaies without any limitation of the power of GOD towards the creatures : and to the ende , to praise the infinite power , wisedome , and eternall will of our Creator and Redeemer : and to the end to preserue the closet of Gods secrets from euery shamelesse and impudent person , which of his own folly wil make a law , not only to men , of heretikes . Credendo non credunt . To wit , that in beleeuing Gods omnipotencie , they beleeue it not . For after they haue said that no exception is to be put vnto it , on the other side they returne to declare , that it ought not bee extended to euery thing , which humane spi● t can conceiue . And indeed , they will not apply vnto it , but what seemeth good vnto them : and shrowd themselues with the nature , wisdome , and eternall will of God : which to them are vnknowne , and incomprehensible , as that of the Omnipotencie . The Doctors therefore do admonish all men to beware of beeing abused with the words of Caluin and his Ministers : but to regard the works which they denie to be in the power of God . The Doctors haue proposed to them these foure questions : to wit , whether God can make one body to be in two places : and ( contrariwise ) two bodies in one place : whether hee can lodge one body in a lesse space then the greatnesse thereof : and whether he can make it invisible . And such questions haue beene specially chosen : because the principall arguments of the pretended reformed Religion against the true presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament , are founded vpon the same .

The Doctors beleeue simply ( as all other things ) that the foure questions are possible to God , and haue proued the same by the infinitenesse of his power , by the scriptures , which attribute vnto him all power without exception , ouer the creatures : and by written examples and straunge my racles wrought vpon their bodies , against the nature of them . Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection , saith : To the end wee may beleeue , that our God is more mightie then all lawe and nature of all bodies : And addeth : that they knowe God amisse who thinke that is not in his power , which they in their braine cannot comprehend . From whence it commeth ( as saith S. Cyrill ) that such wicked spirits doo reiect and condemne all things as impossible , because they themselues do not vnderstand them .

Moreouer the Doctors suppose they haue sufficiently shewed , as well by expresse scripture , as by the expositions thereof , taken from auncient Christians , that it was not onely in the power of God to make two bodies in one place , and one body without place equall to it greatnesse , but that alreadie it was truly done in the birth of the body of our Lord Iesus Christ : in his resurrection : in the entrie through the closed doores : and in the ascention aboue all the heauens . And the Doctors haue shewed , that there was like and semblable repugnancie in these deeds , as in the other : that is , of one body in two places : which is not exempted by the scripture , from the power nor will of God , more then the others , to iudge it impossible to bee done : and that there was neuer Christian before our time , which dared to affirme that thing to be impossible , ●nd out of the power of God , although occasion was often offered to say it , had they any way thought it impossible : as the Ministers of the pretended reformed Religion do pretend . Contrariwife , the most part of the auncient authors of the Primitiue Church , haue held it expresly to be in Gods power to place one creature in many places : as held Saint Ierome against the heretike Vigillantius , that the soules of the Saints might be present in many places , with the immaculate Lambe our Lord Iesus Christ . And the question was , whether the said soules , and spirits of the Saints , were sometimes present in the Churches where their Sepulchres and monuments were . And so much thereof holdeth S. Augustine in the 16 ▪ Chap. of the booke which he wrote of the due care of the dead : where he writeth , that soules by the power of their owne nature , cannot be here belowe , and in heauen , or in many places : but that it may be done by the power of God : and will not resolue whether they vnderstand our affaires by such a presence in many places , or by the reuelation of Angels , or other meanes by the power and grace of God .

Also it is certain , that in the matter of the holy Sacrament , the auncient Fathers of the Church haue acknowledged and maintained , that the bodie of Iesus Christ was in many places by the almightie power of God . As doth S. Ambrose vpon the tenth of the Epistle to the Hebrewes : and Saint Chrisostome in his 17. Homily vpon the same Epistle . Where both two as it were in like words do write , that although in many places there are many actions and oblations of the body of Iesus Christ : neuerthelesse ( hauing regard to the thing which is offered , to wit , the true lambe and body of Christ Iesus ) that this sacrifice in many places offered is but one , for so much as it is but one selfe-same thing : to wit , the true lambe , and the true body of Iesus Christ , which is but one , and abideth whole in all places where it is offered . They adde also , that the oblations of him in diuers places , is not an iteration of the sacrifice of the Crosse : but in commemoration of him . So that in the sacrifice of the Masse , they acknowledge and distinguish two points . The one which concerneth the realtie of the thing offered : and they say , that this is the true lambe , and true body of Iesus Christ : which then remaining intierly one , is neuerthelesse in many places . And the other concerneth the action and oblation of such thing by the Priest , which is no iteration , nor like action or oblation as that of the Crosse : but diuerse , in remembrance notwithstanding of that was made vpon the Crosse . S. Chrisostome in the third booke of Priesthood , cryeth out saying : Oh myracle and power of God! He which sitteth on high at the right hand of his Father , is held betweene the hands of each one in the Sacrament . S. Augustine vpon the 33. Psalme sheweth , that the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper was in two places : that is to say , in it visible place among his Apostles ; and neuerthelesse betweene his owne hands . So that he himselfe did beare himselfe . And before he concludeth the same , Saint Augustine debateth how it was possible that one person should beare his body betweene his hands . And after he had shewed that it was impossible for Dauid , and euerie creature , he descended at last , to the diuine power which was in Iesus Christ : by the which , to him alone among all men , such myracle was possible . And to the ende that men should not depraue , nor wrest the meaning of S. Augustine , ( because there is something which after a sort is carried as though it diminished the truth ) let them note that the purpose of S. Augustine is , to shewe that Iesus by his almightinesse did carrie himselfe , which to any creature was impossible . Now had he onely in the Supper borne betweene his hands the figure of the Sacrament , and signe of his body , and not his true and reall body , hee should haue done nothing , but what the least man might do . For each man can carrie betwixt his hands , the figure , Image , signe or Sacrament of his body , or sticke it in his hat , without myracle or supernaturall power . It be houeth then , that the certaine maner which S. Augustine vseth , doth nothing diminish the truth : and this it is , that betweene his hands he was inuisible , and in a supernaturall maner of being ; reall neuerthelesse and true . S. Basil in his Liturgie with the others , auoucheth the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen , and by his almightinesse notwithstanding to bee present in the Sacrament : although the Ministers to proue it impossible for one body , or one other creature , to be in many places , do chiefly build vpon S. Basil : but the said S. Basil , in the place by the Ministers alledged , doth expresly protest , not to speake but according to the naturall proprietie . And in his Liturgie he declareth , that it is not onely in the power of God to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen , and vpon the Aultar ; but that it is so truly done .

The Doctors to end this question of one body in many places , say : that such matter is not onely in the power of God , but that it must so be beleeued to bee done in the holy Sacrament , that God be not found a lyar and deceiuer in his word : whereby Iesus affirmed to his Apostles , that that which he gaue with his hands , was his true body , deliuered for vs . This is an argument which Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection maketh , after hee had disputed against them which denied the same to be possible with God . And it seemeth they then said ( as the Ministers haue formerly said ) that there was something by the scriture impossible with God : to wit , that he could not lye , nor deceiue : and that thereof they tooke occasion to goe further , and to dispute that the resurrection was to him also impossible . So that the Ministers , because God cannot lye , haue endeuouted ●o inferre , that to put one body in two places , was impossible for him , as well as to lye and deceiue . Tertullian in the end accordeth with the Marcionists , and saith : Rather had I confesse that God cannot deceiue , and that hee is onely weake and impotent in deceit : to the end , that thereby hee seeme not to haue taught and spoken one way , and to haue otherwise disposed of the deed contained in his word . Then if hee cannot ( concludeth Tertullian ) deceiue and abuse , the resurrection must be beleeued , as it is carried in his word , and not otherwise , least deceit be found in the word of God .

The Doctors say also , they willingly confesse , that God cannot lye , nor deceiue : and that it must therefore be beleeued , that so he hath willed and ordained the truth of the Supper , in such sort , and not otherwise , as his word soundeth and beareth . Now so it is , that his word plainly and expresly beareth , that he affirmeth that what hee gaue with his hands to his Apostles to eat , was his body , deliuered for vs : we must therefore beleeue that his word saith not otherwise then his will is , least he be esteemed a lyar . And that as he saith , This is my body : This is my bloud : that it is so indeed . The which the Doctors ( by Gods assistance ) will declare in the next Conference , to shewe that he hath not onely power to establish his body in the holy Sacrament : but also that he hath willed it , and so hath done it .

Artictles proposed by the Doctosr for the next Conference , and others following , according to the order of the said Articles .

ALthough , following the order of Conference touching the Apostles Creed , they ought secondly to entreate of an other article ( as the Ministers themselues in the beginning of the Conference not onely accorded , but demaunded : offering the imprinted Articles of their confession , bearing date the 1564. yeare , from the first vnto the last , to be examined by the Doctors . ) Neuerthelesse , the Doctors seeing it will not be much from the purpose , after they haue intreated of the omnipotencie of God ( which extendeth to bee powerfull to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen , and in the Sacrament ) in continuing that matter , to enter into the probation of his will : they are content to shewe , that he hath not power onely , but that also he hath wil : and are consequently determined to refute all the blasphemies and heresies contained in their Supper , which are called reformed : to the end also they be not deemed to flye the list , touching the Supper and the Masse , as the Ministers haue reproached them . Neuerthelesse they protest , that their meaning is , after the conclusion of this matter , and resolution giuen , to returne to examine the wonderfull errors of the Ministers , which in number are many against the other articles of the Creed : which thing the Ministers ( vnwilling that the Doctors should pursue the order begun , do greatly feare , as one may see , and iudge : foreseeing , that in the next Conference , an other blasphemie would be shewed them , which the Church ( calling it selfe Reformed ) against the goodnesse of God , after Caluins doctrine ) maintaineth : to wit , that God worketh in the reprobate , the euill and sinne they commit : which is an execrable Atheisme , and no lesse then the deniall of the omnipotencie of God . And they that can read these Conferences ( continuing to the ende of the discussion of the Ministers errors , and of their religion against all the articles of the Creed ) shall bee likewise abashed to vnderstand the absurdities and blasphemies issuing from the same .

An other point there is yet , which inuiteth the Ministers to demaund tractation of the Supper : which is , that they haue the whole matter alreadie squared , by many of their Sect , who haue written of the same : And chiefly the great booke of Peter Martir will not faile them . Wherby they shal be furnished with I know not what infamous obiections , & of some passages of the Fathers , broken & depraued , or euilly applied , to impugne in shew , the truth of the body in the Sacrament . But for defence of all other their errors , the Ministers are meanely armed : and their conscience doth sufficiently witnesse , that by the scripture , decision of generall Councells , and common accord of the writings of all the auncient Fathers , ( no apparance to the contrary ) they are conuinced and condemned of their errors against the said Creed .

Now , to enter into the examination of the Supper of the Ministers , the Doctors do maintaine , that it is a prophane eating and drinking , not differing from common eating and drinking , but in that it is worse : that they abuse the holy institution of the Supper of Iesus , and pollute and defile such their banket with all impietie , & blasphemie . They also maintaine , that the Ministers do great iniurie to the Sacrament of Iesus Christ , falsly to attribute to such , their prophane and polluted banket , the name of Sacrament . And to the end that the proofe thereof be more cleare , the Doctors demaund of the Ministers , whether they receiue one common doctrine , receiued not only in the Church Catholique , but also almost in all Sects which are seperated from it : That is , that in the confection of the Sacraments , there be two essentiall and necessarie things : the matter ( or element ) and the word ?

Secondly , what word , with the Element , is necessary to make a Sacrament : and namely , that which the Ministers do call the Sacrament of the Supper : and whether it behoueth to vse certaine words or no ?

Thirdly , whether the word haue some power or effectuall working in the Sacrament ? & what , & whether it worke vpon something in the matter of the bread and wine ?

Fourthly , whether by the same word , consecration bee made of the matter of the Sacrament or no ?

Fiftly , whether by the word consecration , be not made of the matter ? to wit , how the same consecration is made ? and by what vertue the same is made ?

Sixtly , whether besides the bread and wine , and the spirituall graces and benefites of Iesus Christ , the true body and bloud of Iesus Christ in their proper substance , and not in spirituall effect onely , be really receiued in the Supper ? And the Doctors do demand vpon this article , a plaine confession of the faith of the Ministers .

They demaund further , whether in receiuing the bread , before taking of the wine , they receiue not by the eating of the bread , the body and bloud of Iesus Christ : or the body onely . Briefly , whether they admit that which Diuines call a Concomitance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ .

They demaund also , whether the Supper ( ouer and besides the assurance which it giueth them of the participation they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ , for their redemption ) doth worke in them remission of sinnes ?

Lastly they demaund , whether one receiueth any thing by the Supper , which he could not receiue without the Supper ? or whether without paine taking to go the Supper , or beeing present thereat , one may as well receiue the bodie and graces of Iesus Christ , as if hee were present at the Supper ?

The Doctors will afterwards debate the other articles , contained in the Ministers last writing : for as much as the precedent demaunds ought to be first examined , as grounds of other articles proposed by the Ministers .

Moreouer , after the confutation of the Supper of the Ministers , and the confirmation of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament , the Doctors by order , and without confusion , will clearly teach by the pure and expresse word of God , that the Masse was instituted and said by Iesus Christ , and that he commaunded his Apostles to say it : which thing , then following the ordinance of their Maister , they afterwards performed .

That the Masse is a true sacrifice of the lawe Euangelique .

That they which reiect the Masse , and admit in the Church no externall sacrifice , nor Priesthood , are without the true lawe , without true Religion , and therein worse then Idolaters themselues .

That the Masse auaileth to obtaine remission of sinnes , fauour , and grace of God : and that it auaileth both for the quicke and the dead .

That it is not an abuse in the Church , if the Priest in the Masse do communicate alone , when they that are present will not communicate .

That they commit an horrible blasphemie , which call the adoration of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament , adoration of bread and wine , and falsly call such worship of the body of Iesus Christ , Idolatrie .

To be short , that there is nothing in the Masse , at this day ordained and celebrated , which in it selfe is not good , and holy , and agreeable to the word of God .

The Doctors do admonish the Ministers to answere to the demaunds here aboue written , to purpose , plainely , and by order .

Sunday , 28. of Iuly , in the yeare aforesaid .

The Ministers answere to the writings of the Doctors , sent to them by my Lord de Niuernois , the 28. day of Iuly , about seuen of the clocke in the euening , in the 1566. yeare .

THe Doctors reproach the Ministers in the beginning of their writing , that in their former complaint against them , they immitate the Donatists : wherein they verifie that , which the Ministers heretofore haue oftentimes shewed them : to wit , that the most part of their writings are imployed in repetitions , iniuries , scoffes , and inuectiues , rather then in good arguments and reasons : And they say , that the example of the Donatists is much more proper to bee applyed to them , then to the Ministers : for as much as the Donatists would restraine the name of the Church , ( which vniuersally comprehendeth all the elect and faithfull , that are , and euer were ) : and attribute the same to the sole company of them which follow their customes and errors : as the Doctors at this day approue not others for the Catholike and vniuersall Church , then they which follow the traditions and abuses of the Romane Church . Moreouer , the Donatists did persecute them which were contrarie to their doctrine , and vsed violence and all crueltie against them , that they could deuise : as Saint Augustine in many places doth recyte . Now what in time past hath bene the rage and furie , as well of the Doctors , as of their complices , Priests , and hypocriticall Monkes , against poore Christians , each one knoweth . And there is not he , which knoweth not now , both by their Sermons , writings , and conferences , what is their hate and spight against the children and seruants of God : and what pleasure should they haue to roote them out , were theyr power answerable to their will : whereby one may iudge , whether they or the Ministers come nearer to the likenesse and example of the Donatists .

And whereas the Doctors adde , that the Ministers cease not to bee blasphemers , because they reiect and detest the name thereof . The Ministers answere , that the Doctors also leaue not to be false accusers , because they disauow , and denie the name . And that the effects do shewe of the one side and the other , to whom such crimes and names may appertaine , and be attributed .

And touching that which the Doctors in the same article say , that it is blasphemy against the goodnesse of God , to impute vnto him , that hee is the author of vice , and of sinne . The Ministers confesse it : and do adde , that it is blasphemy also against his truth , to say , that with him there is yea , and nay : as doo they , which vnder a colour and false pretext to establish the omnipotencie of GGD , doo propose , that hee can cause one bodie at one selfe-same instant to bee in diuers places : to wit , that it is , and is not .

Touching that which the Doctors afterwards say , that the Ministers erre in the grounds of Gods omnipotencie : for as much as they haue said , that he was almightie , because he doth whatsoeuer hee will : and that nothing can hinder , or with-hold the execution of his counsailes . The Ministers answere , that therein they haue followed Saint Augustines definition of the omnipotencie of God , in the 96. Chapter of his Enchiridion : where word for word hee thus saith : For other cause is hee not truly called omnipotent : but for as much as hee can do all whatsoeuer hee will : and that the effect of the will of the Almightie , is not hindered by the will and effect of any creature .

In that they consequently impute to the Ministers , that they haue said the omnipotencie of God ought not to bee generally extended to all things which men may conceiue and imagine in their mindes . The Ministers say ( vnder the Doctors correction ) that they said not so : but that the almightinesse of God , ought not to be extended without any discretion or distinction , to all things generally , which men in their foolish phantasies might forge or imagine . Wherein to each one it may eftsoones appeare , how they curtall and falsifie the Ministers words and sentences , to haue meanes and colour for their slaunder .

Afterwards , where they affirme that it is blasphemy to say that God can doo nothing against order : the Ministers on the contrary part maintaine , that to thinke and say that hee can doo ought which is not well ordered , is to blaspheme the wisedome , and eternall prouidence of God .

The Doctors pretend in the article following , that one body to be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant , is not a thing derogatorie to the truth of God . The Ministers doo maintaine the contrarie , that it should be derogate both to his truth ; for as much as there should be in him , ( as is said ) yea and nay : and to his wisedome , for as much as in his words there should be disorder and confusion : and by consequence to his almightinesse , because in his deeds there should be imperfection .

And they further say , that it should not be onely against the disposition and ordinary course of nature , ( as the Doctors faigne to haue thought and vnderstood ) but also against the eternall and vnchangeable will of our God .

And as touching that which the Doctors , to proue that God can do something against order , do propose that he can chaunge and alter the order established in the world . The Ministers confesse the same : but they denie that in so dooing he should do any thing which were disordered . As ( for example ) all faithfull and Christian men doo beleeue , beleeue , that God will renew at the last the estate of the whole world : wherein there is nothing in the meane time which is not well ordained , perfect , and in all points accomplished .

The Doctors in the following article , confound the distinction proposed by the Ministers , in their answere betweene the will of God manifested , and that he hath hidden in himselfe , and is equall to his power : as the Ministers before haue at large declared . And the Doctors do falsly presuppose touching the reuealed will of God ; taking that generally , which the Ministers haue graunted in some particulars onely : to wit , that God can doo more in ceraine things , then he hath declared to will : which none doubteth . As saith S. Augustine in the booke of perfect Iustice , that he cannot make a man to be perfect in this world , and sanctifie him in such sort , that there remaine no more in him any infirmitie or imperfection ; although hee hath neuer declared vnto vs by his word , that hee would do it : but contrariwise , that the flesh in all the regenerate will alwaies resist the spirit : so that all the time of their liues , they shall be in many points imperfect . But albeit in that , and some other like cases , God can do more then his will declareth , which he hath manifested to vs in his word : yet neuerthelesse can it not be said but that there be other cases , wherein God hath reuealed his will vnto vs , against which he can do or ordaine nothing .

Things impossible with God . yet in these As ( for example ) hee hath declared vnto vs , that hee is one , that he is immutable , incomprehensible , wholly good , wholly iust , wholly perfect , and wholly true : Against all impossibilities is his omnipotencie established . which things , ( which to vs are manifested and clearly proposed in his word ) impossible it is for him , euer to thinke , say , do , or ordaine .

Now the thing proposed and debated by the Doctors , touching the being of one body , at one instant in diuers places , is comprised in that ranke , beeing ( as is said ) contrarie to the truth of God . Which shall serue for answere to the Doctors slaunders , and to all that they haue proposed in this article . Likewise in an other following article , where they say that God not onely can , but will also cause , that one body occupie diuers places at one selfe-same time . That shall be yet more impossible for them to proue , then the power aforesaid , for which they haue hitherto so much trauelled in vaine .

In their definition of one bodye in the Article following , they contradict themselues , when they say that the measures are essentiall vnto it : and that it may neuerthelesse bee incircumscript : for if it bee needfull that the dimensions whereof it is composed , bee finite ; of necessitie it followeth therevpon , that then it is finite , limited , and circumscript .

To that which they afterwards say , that the reason which the Ministers haue taken of the Creed , and alledged to proue that the body of Iesus Christ is in heauen in a place certaine , is friuolous . The Ministers say ; that the Doctors shewe therein what reuerence they beare to the word of GOD , and his spirite , who hath reuealed the same vnto vs , and to the Apostles , which declare them vnto vs .

To iustifie Gracian and the Canon , which the Ministers alledge of S. Augustine , by which they proue that the bodie of Christ must necessarily be in a place certaine , the Ministers bring yet for more ample confirmation , the 4. booke and 10. distinction of the Maister of the Sentences : who recyting the selfe-same passage of S. Augustine , vseth the verbe [ Oportet ] and not [ Potest ] .

As touching that of Iustine which the Doctors alledge , to proue the myracles which were then done ; that Iesus Christ appeared in the middest of his Disciples , the gates being shut : and that hee walked vpon the waters , were done in his person . The Ministers are amazed how the Doctors doo yet repeate the same . For as much as the said Iustine ( as they haue before beene answered ) expresly saith : that when the said myracles were done , there was no chaunge of the body of Iesus Christ : which thing , had the myracles bene done in his person , had bene necessarie . In the meane time , the Ministers confesse ( as they haue done often ) that the cause of the said myracles , and the diuine power whence they proceeded , abode in Iesus Christ . As when hee healed the diseased which touched him : and did the other myracles recyted in the Euangelicall Histories : the which were done by him , but not in him , but in the person of them that we●● healed . And there is great difference betweene such myracles , and those of his transfiguration , and resurrection , which were wrought by his onely power , and in his proper person .

Vpon the importunate repetition which the Doctors make , as well of the meanes of the birth of our Lord Iesus Christ , as of the word Aphantos : The Ministers for sparing of time , and not troubling the readers , send them back to their former answeres .

The Ministers much maruel that the Doctors to proue their pretended penetration of two bodies , and of their measures , wil ground their proofe and principal argument vpon the proper signification of the terme [ Penetrer ] . For be it so , that they will by this French word interpret the Greeke word Dierchestas , or the Latine word Penetrare . It shall bee euer impossible to proue their pretence . And as it is also in the Acts of the Apostles , Chap. 12. 10. It is said of the Angell and S. Peter that they passed the first and second watch . And in S. Luke . 4. 30. But they passed through the middest of them , and departed . And in S. Io. 4. 4. Now it behoued him to passe by Samaria .

In all which passages the Doctors shall not find , that the word Dierchestai ( in the said passages alledged ) can bee any way applied to the penetration of dimensions . And no more shall they proue that the word [ Penetrare ] which the old Translator hath vsed in the 2. Tymo . 3. can be reduced to their said penetration .

The Ministers do adde , that the Doctors ought not to hold it more straunge , that Iesus Christ ascending into heauen in his finite and limited body , an opening were made for his entrance therin : then when he descendeth betweene the hands of the Priests singing their Masses : For then ( as saith S. Gregorie ) the heauens do open to giue him passage . Although after their imagination , his body is then seperated from it measures and dimensions .

The Doctors should haue contented themselues with the Ministers answer vpon the similitude & word [ Camell ] . For first , they can no wayes proue , that that saying of Iesus Christ vpon the end of that speech , ought else-where to be applied , then to the nearest member of the same : where speech is made of the conu●sion and sauing of a rich man . For the Pronowne demonstratiue [ Hoc ] doth clearly shewe it : Afterwards , although that the generall proposition in the end and conclusion of the said sentence ( where it is said that all things are possible to God ) extendeth ( as the Doctors will haue it ) to the Camell , as well as the rich man : yet rightly to apply the two patts of the comparison , it behoueth they confesse , that as the change is necessary for the rich man to be saued : so is it also for the body of the Camel , to cause it passe through the eye of a needle . Howsoeuer that might in some sort be done , the Doctors shal not proue , nor euer thence conclude , that two bodies can the one pierce the other . For as much as the Doctors by their thrisestrong & powerfull arguments haue not bene able to conclude any of all their absurdities , nor by force of their reasons to constraine the Ministers to confesse the same : they do nought else but exclaime , Blasphemy , Blasphemy ; which is the last recourse of all persons , who despite and gnash the teeth against the truth , and them that maintain it , when they cannot ouercome them . Would the Ministers subscribe to the errors end abuses of the said Doctors , they should bee good and Catholike people : but because they gainsay and reproue them , they be ( in their opinion ) heretikes , seducers , blasphemers , and Atheists : and in so great horror doo the Doctors hold them , that it is maruel they pull not ( like Caiphas ) their horned caps and hoods in peeces , in detestation of the word of God , proposed and defended by the said Ministers , and condemned as blasphemy by the Doctors .

The Doctors haue dissembled the passage of the scripture alledged by the Ministers , to proue that faith is a worke of God , which he bringeth forth in the heart of the faithfull , when he will worke his regeneration : and incidently speake of free will , and the merit of workes . Wherevnto the Ministers are well resolued to answere ; and by the grace of God , to maintaine the truth of these two points , against the enemies of his glorie , when they shall be proposed to be debated and discussed . And for the ioy which they receiue ( say they ) that the Ministers haue confessed , they haue not read in any auncient Author and expresse termes , that God cannot cause one selfe-same body to bee in diuers places at one instant : they haue no great cause thereof to reioyce : for albeit the said Fathers haue not in expresse termes said it : yet in termes equiualent , in infinite places haue they said and written the same .

A short Resolution of all the Answeres and discourse which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the Conference which they haue had with the Doctors .

THe craft and subtiltie of Sathan from the beginning of the world hath alwayes beene , to transforme himfelfe into an Angell of light , and to search some faire pretext , to shrowd and disguise himselfe , and vnder that shadowe , to insinuate himselfe into the Church of GOD , and there to broach his lyes and trumperies .

As we all see , that vnder pretence to honour God , he hath established all the Idolatrie which hath euer beene in the worlde : referring the adoration of Images , the Inuocation and intercession of Saintes , the worshipping of Reliques , and other lyke impieties to the honour of God , and perswading the ignorant that all that was done to aduance the same . Lykewise vnder pretext of his seruice , hath he brought in all the traditions and inuentions of men , and chaunged with the time , the true and lawfull seruice of God ( which consisteth in the obedience of his holy will , declared vnto vs in his lawe and word ) into the obseruation of theyr commaundements , and theyr inuented ceremonies . Vnder shadowe and colour of the Sacraments ordained by God , for the confirmation , exercise and nourishing of the faith of the Church , there hath crept in the Masse : which is not only the ruine and totall subuersion of the Supper : but also an abolishment of all the benefite of Iesus Christ : and consequently of the faith and all true Religion . Vnder colour and shadowe of holinesse , and of chaste , shamefaste , and honest conuersation , which is chiefly required in the Ministers and Pastors of the Church , he hath established single life , and taken away from them the libertie of marriage : which hath bene the occasion of all filthinesse , and of infamous , stinking , and execrable whoredomes and luxuritie , which is seene in the Papacie . Vnder the shadowe of prayers , which men are commaunded to make one for an other : and of Charitie , whereby we are bound to succour all the needie poore : hath hee brought in all the suffrages which men sing for the dead , the merites and workes of supererogation , and other lyke abhominations . Vnder colour of the Saboth , which God had chosen and deputed to the sanctification of his holy name , to the contemplation of his workes , in the remembrance and preaching of his benefites and fauours . He hath set forth an infinite number of prophane Feastes , in which the name of God is blasphemed , his ordinance despised , his couenant violated . But who can recount the wickednesse and abhominations which are committed in these dayes ? Vnder pretext of the keyes and discipline of the Church , the administration and vse whereof was giuen to the Ministers lawfully called , for a meane to conserue the doctrine in it puritie , and keepe and entertaine good order in the Church , and to hinder the slaunders which by the insolencie of some might happen : hath hee established a tyrannie , whence is proceeded the whole dissipation of the Church of God , the corruption of all estates : and the diminishing of the lawfull authoritie which God hath giuen to Kings , Princes , and Magistrates . Some whereof , haue bene wholly spoyled , as well of theyr goods , as dignities , by the Pope , and the Bishops : and others so weakened , that they are in many places constrained to bowe the necke , and submit themselues to theyr yoake and puissance . To be short , this may be noted and obserued in all the purposes and actions of the diuell : that as he is a Serpent , so hath hee alwayes ramped , and secretly crept ( as it were ) vnder the leaues and appearance of some pietie , into the house of God , to place therein , his pretended disorder , confusion and ruine . And we see , that now continuing and following his wonted practises , hee setteth foorth the omnipotencie of God ( which to all the world is a plausible and fauourable tytle ) to the ende , that vnder the lustre and brightnesse of such an occasion , hee might dazell the eyes of the ignorant , and hold them still in the opinion and perswasion of theyr errorus ; which haue no foundation in the word of God . The Ministers beseech the Readers , and all those that haue the feare of God , or any zeale of his honour , to be wise , and attentiue , to weigh and discouer the sayd subtilties and practises of the Diuell : and not to beleeue all spirites before they haue well sounded and tryed them : and that they also approue not all the things , which vnder the name of God , may be proposed vnto them ; and which at the first , may seeme to tende and appertaine to his honour and glorie : but that they remember the Apostles admonition , to try the spirites : 1. Ioh. 4. 1. and that they verie carefully regarde the ende , and scope of those , which propose vnto them such doctrine . And if there be any thing wherin heed must be taken of such cosonages and fraudes , which are layd to surprise the simple ; it is needfull , chiefly in this matter of the Omnipotency of God : whereof is the present question . For the Ministers do confesse , that it ought to be knowne , beleeued , and vniuersally adored of all creatures , in heauen and in earth . Moreouer they confesse , that the faithfull cannot haue a better foundation , nor better rampert to leane vnto , and sustaine themselues against all the endeuours , as well of the diuel , the world , and their other enemies : as also ( to be short ) of all the temptations wherewith they might bee assayled and besieged .

This Omnipotency ( they confesse ) is the hinge of the axeltree ( as it were ) wherevpon the world , with all it parts is turned and sustained . They confesse moreouer , that the same Omnipotency is not only venerable to the Angels , and blessed spirits in heauen , and to the elect and Saints vpon earth : but also terrible to the reprobates and diuels in hell . So that the one doth willingly embrace and submit themselues vnto it : and the others are constrained to bow vnder it , and yeeld vnto and obey the same .

Lastly they confesse , that it is infinite , and of incomprehensible greatnesse , to all creatures , as the wisedome , goodnesse , Iustice , truth , and the other vertues and proprieties of our God .

This is that which the Ministers beleeue and confesse of the Omnipotency of God : and that which they thinke , all Christians ought thereof to beleeue and hold . Now to make good vse of this Almightinesse , and to apply it as is meete : we must iudge thereof , according to his will : and of his will , according to his word : So that we ought not to attribute indifferently to the power of God , all things good and euill , ordered and disordered , agreeable and contrary to his nature , false and true : But to well rule and order the thoughts and cogitations of Gods Omnipotencie , presenting themselues in our hearts : we must ( for our part ) measure the same according to his holy will : and beleeue that it cannot be limitted , letted nor hindred by any other will or power , which wil or may be opposite vnto it . Which thing S. Augustine well teacheth in many places ; as in the fift booke and 10. Chapter of the Cittie of God : where speaking of God , hee saith : That he is called almightie : because he doth all whatsoeuer he will , and suffereth nothing if he will it not . Also in the seuenth Chapter of the 21. booke . For no other reason but this onely , is he called Almightie : that he can do all whatsoeuer he will doo . Also in the first Chapter of the booke De Symbolo ad Catec : Our God ( saith he ) doth all that which he will do : and that is his Almightinesse . Also in the 119. Sermon De tempore ; He is Almightie , to do all things that he will do , and ordaineth to be done . These sentences , and many other lyke , found in the writings of that good Father , and other Auncients , do clearly teach vs , the maner how we may well make profit of the faith we haue of the omnipotency of God : That is in bringing vs backe to his will , and iudging of his will , by his word , and not by the false imaginations which therof we may conceiue in our minds : or that others would propose vnto vs : As did Sathan to Iesus Christ , whom he would haue induced to cast downe himselfe headlong , vnder a vaine trust of helpe from the omnipotencie of God . Euen so also , the Monarchians , who vnder colour and pretext of Gods omnipotencie , which of some myracles they gathered , would proue and establish their heresies , and take away the personall distinction which is betweene the Father and the sonne , saying : That God being Almightie , could therefore make himselfe Father and sonne together . Of the Anabaptists in these last times , is it also found , that for a vaine assurance , which they put in the omnipotency of God , hoping he could nourish them , as he did the byrds , would not labour .

Many such lyke more great inconueniences may happen to all those , that hauing such wandering and stragling thoughts of the Omnipotency of God , wil not restraine nor reduce them to his will . And this we see is besalue the Doctors : who willing to apprehend and measure the omnipotencie of God by their owne imaginations , rather then by his will and word , are ( as saith S. Paul ) become vaine in their imagination , and their foolish heart is filled with darknesse . And willing to behold the Maiestie of God out of the limits and bounds which hee had shewed them in his word , haue bene intrapped and ouerwhelmed of his glorie . And that is befalne them , which in their resolution , they themselues haue touched : to wit , that for not hauing taken the word of God for their guide , nor followed the steppes and pathes of his holy spirit , they do erre from the faith : which ( contrarie to that which the Doctors doo thinke ) is not destroyed nor ouerthrowne by the consideration of the creatures and workes of God ( which are as a myrror of his glorie and diuinitie ) : but in as much as by them wee were turned away from the promises of God : by the which we are assured of his will , and almightinesse ; which doth warrant and assure vs of the effects , and accomplishment of this holy will . Which may bee seene and clearly obserued in them that were sent by Moyses to espie out and know the Land of the Cananites . Two of which , ( namely Iosua and Caleb ) could neuer be withdrawne from the trust they had in theyr God . For as much as turning their mindes from the consideration of all things which could make them doubt thereof , ( as of the Fortresse and munition of Cities , the number , force , weapons , and experience of the countrie Inhabitants ) they stayed their minds in the sole consideration of the promises which God had made vnto them . Contrariwise , the others forgetting the same promises , & nought considering , but that which they saw before their eyes , they fell , and caused all the people to fall with them , into that cursed and damnable infidelitie ▪ for which they were so grieueuously punished in the wildernesse , and excluded from enterance therevnto , and enioying of that thing , which God had promised to theyr Fathers . And in the example of Abraham , whose faith abode firme and stable , by the consideration chiefly of the promise and will of God , as S. Paul declareth . So that the consideration of Gods Almightinesse , came after , to maintaine & second that which he had of the promise . One may see by these examples , what daunger there is , to depart and draw backe , although neuer so litle , from the word of God : by which we are guided to the knowledge of his will . And by the knowledge of his will , conducted to the consideration and iudgement , which we ought to make and haue of his Almightinesse .

For want whereof , the Doctors are fallen into errors and raylings , which they propose to the Ministers by their writing and conclusion of their resolution . That is to say : that the body of Iesus Christ may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant : which is against the faith we ought to haue , and constantly retaine of the wisedome , prouidence , and euerlasting truth of our God : and against that likewise , which wee ought to haue and keepe of our Lords true humanitie .

And that which they first alledge of S. Ierome against Vigilantius , nought serueth for the proofe and confirmation of their error . Where no other thing he saith : but that the soules of the Saints are not inclosed in a certaine prison ( as dreamed Vigilantius ) but do follow the Lambe whithersoeuer he goeth . Nor that which they alledge of Saint Augustine in the booke which he made of the pure care of the dead . For in that booke hee himselfe confesseth , that he is incertaine of that which the Doctors doo propose , and are assured . And nomore doo the three authorities they alledge , of Saint Iohn Chrisostome , Saint Ambrose , and Saint Augustine : whose sentences ought to be taken , and vnder stood of the Sacrament , and not of the thing signified by the Sacrament : As in the next conference the Ministers well hope to shew .

The Ministers do much maruel , that the Doctors so draw backe , and will not ( but vnwillingly ) enter into conference for defence of their Masse : and to gainsay the Supper celebrated in the reformed Churches . For seeing they hold it for the principall foundation of theyr Religion : and propose the same for a meane of saluation to the whole world : ( That they be not seene seducers , nor ouer credulous to beleeue or teach an incertaine and vnassured thing ) : they should alwayes be prouided and furnished with reasons , to the end they might approue , and readily defend that which they beleeue and say : and might conuince them also , that would deny the same : But in this , it appeareth to proceed of of an euill conscience , which being timerous and fearefull , flyeth alwaies the combat , and the light . It is long time since the Ministers haue importuned them to enter into the deciding and conference of these two points , and to bring them thervnto , they haue proposed vnto them , that it was the end for which the conference was appointed : which Madame de Buillon , ( in whose fauour it was made ) once or twise hath publikely required : and that they also had often protested , that they were not for other ende assembled with the Doctors , then to satisfie therein the said Lady of Buillon : and not to be examined by them , as they do falsly pretend . For the Ministers haue no desire to be examined of such Doctors , being Priests : Ioyned , that to be taught in the points of religion , and to know the truth , they would not choose such Maisters , nor repaire vnto them , and frequent theyr schooles for that purpose . And yet notwithstanding all the foresayd remonstrances often made and repeated by the Ministers , the Doctors haue alwayes vntill now , deferred to conferre of the foresaid points : awayting ( as it is likely ) that some occasion should be offered , to breake off , and determine the sayd conference , before they had begunne to speak thereof . Albeit , had they any zeale to th● honour of God , and to the edification of his Church , they should by all meanes haue procured that the sayd two points should haue beene fully cleared and resolued : be it that they would confirme and strengthen them of their part : or withdraw ( as they pretend ) those of our side from their errors . For it is not much needfull hereafter to dispute of the Saints , of Purgatory , Pilgrigrimages , and other like points : In regard of which , the most part of the world is at this day cleared . By meanes whereof , as well the Doctors , as the Ministers , ought chiefly to insist vpon these two points , and to endeuour ( with them ) to make them cleare and to be vnderstood of each one , and not to vse Sophistries and cauils to make them obscure , and retaine thereby the simple in their ignorance : as the Doctors endeuour to do . Who ( hauing left of set purpose the Theses & Articles proposed to them by the Ministers , with order & good methode in their last answeres ) do confusedly propose certaine questions culled out of their schoole diuinitie : euer more and more to fold vp this matter : And in so doing they withstand ( as euer hitherto they haue done ) what so , and so often they haue protested : to wit , that they would examine the confession of the reformed Churches : whereof notwithstanding , they haue not handled one only point in all the conference . Wherein they haue shewed , and yet plainly do shewe , the distrust they haue to be able to withstand so cleare and apparant trueth ; as that which is proposed in the saide confession .

Answeres to the Preface of the Doctors Questions .

THe Doctors , before they propose their Questions , in their Preface do call the Supper celebrated in the refor-Churches , a prophane and polluted banquet . And in so saying , they neither shame , nor feare , first to blaspheme Iesus Christ , who instituted the same , and is the authour therof : and then to condemne the Apostles of Impietie , which so haue celebrated and taught it : together with all the auncient Churches which followed and obserued ( whiles it reremained in it puritie ) the forme and maner which the Euangelists and Apostles had taught , and left by their writings . But the Ministers would willingly demaund of the Lordes our Maisters , that they particularly note vnto them , wherein they can violate the institution & ordinance of Iesus Christ , and leaue his example , and that of his Apostles in the celebration of the Supper ? For when they will celebrate the same , they first assemble the whole Church together : as Iesus Christ did his Apostles and Disciples : where after their publike confession of sinnes , and vnderstandingly made in the name of all , they make a Sermon to the people : wherein according to the grace and power which God hath giuen them , they declare the causes , and occasions , the end , the vse , the points and effects of the holy Supper : to lift vp the hearts of the people to the consideration of the incomprehensible loue which the Father hath shewed towards his Church , when in fauour thereof , and for the saluation of the same , he hath not spared his owne sonne , but exposed him to a cruell and cursed death : to the end , that each one calling to minde so great a grace and mercie , be kindled and inflamed in the loue of God : and tremble at the ingratitudes and rebellious offences and sinnes which he hath committed against his Maiestie : and that with the sorrow and displeasure he hath for the same , he cast himselfe betweene the armes of his sonne , stretched out vpon the Crosse , to haue thereof a generall and full abolition . And that euen so , with such a faith and repentance hee be prepared to present himselfe worthily at the table of the Lord , and to receiue the good things which are there administred . The Sermon ended , the Minister recyteth with an high and audible voyce , and his face turned towards the people , the words of the institution and ordinance of the Supper , together with a briefe and short declaration of the same .

That done , he denounceth to all those , not fully instructed and Catechised , that they depart : and to all them which are excommunicated , or attainted with some sinnes or scandalous crimes ( whereof they haue made no satisfaction to the Church ) that they abstaine therefrom , and pollute not the table of the Lord . After that , the Minister goeth to the table : where hauing taken the bread , and giuen thankes to God , he breaketh it , and giueth it to the people there assembled . And also presently the Cup to all them that communicate : which being ended , he giueth thankes to God , and dismisseth the people .

The Ministers , following in all these things the example and rule , which Iesus Christ hath giuen them , cannot imagine wherevpon the Doctors haue grounded that their saying of the Supper , calling it a prophane and polluted banquet . And they cannot perceiue , what they could or would reproue in all theyr action : vnlesse peraduenture they will taxe them for not hauing Aulbes , stoles , fanets , Crosses , holy water , banners , Chisibles , tunicles , lights , Incense , belles , singing in a straunge and vnknowne language , Musicke , and Organes , holy napkins , Aultars , Clearkes to answere : Et cum spiritu tuo , nor words addressed to the bread and wine ( which haue no eares ) after the maner of Inchanters , nor the Crosse & signes , nor any eleuation of the bread and wine , to cause them to be adored : nor other like aperies of mans inuention , and drawne part from Iudaisme , and part from Paganisme . The obseruation of which things the Ministers would make great conscience of : because they be but Idolatries and superstitions , whereby the puritie & integritie of Christian Religion , is wholly wasted and corrupted .

Answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper .

FOr answere to the first question , the Ministers say ; that the Sacrament in perfection considered , consisteth in three things . One whereof is the Element , which Ireneus calleth a thing earthy : the other , the thing signified ; called by the same author , a thing heauenly . And the third is the word , by which the earthy thing is deputed to signifie the heauenly , and assureth them of the exhibition thereof , that with faith do present themselues to receiue it .

For answere to the second question , the Ministers say ; that the ordinance of God , contained in his word , and declared by his Minister , according to his commandement , is this word word necessary with the E●ment , to constitute the Sacrament : and not the onely lowe and secret pronunciation of certaine vnkowne words , addressed to the elements , nor any vertue which is hidden in the same .

For answere to the third question , the Ministers say , that by the word aforesaid the signes bee chaunged , not as touching the nature : or as touching the substance : but as touching the vse onely : and that only during the action , whervnto they serue .

For answere to the fourth question , the Ministers say , that the bread and wine which before the action of the Supper were common , are consecrated in the Supper : that is to say , deputed by the said word and ordinance of God , declared by the Ministers , to a holy and sacred vse : which is , to represent and exhibit the things by them signified .

The answere to the fourth question sufficeth for the fift .

For answere to the sixt question , the Ministers say , that the faithfull receiue not onely in the Supper , the gifts and graces of Iesus Christ , ( as his tighteousnesse , life , and the other fruites of his sacrifice ) but that they also receiue and possesse himselfe : and are made one with him , no lesse truly and straightly , then the members are conioyned to the head . And they say moreouer , that this coniunction is the spring and meane of all the benefites , which flowe from the grace of God , by him into vs : but they adde , that this reception must bee wholly attributed to the free operation of the holy Ghost , which maketh vs fit and capable to knowe our Lord Iesus Christ , with all his vertues and properties : and in knowing him , to trust in him : and in reposing our trust in him , to possesse and wholly enioy him .

For answere to the seuenth question , the Ministers say , that they reiect and reproue the word Concomitance , and more also the thing thereby signified : for as much as that hath beene the cause , for which the common people hath bene depriued and excluded from one of the essentiall parts of the Sacrament : namely , from the participation of the Cuppe . And they say , that it is an attempt against the diuine Maiestie , to seperate what the sonne of God hath ioyned together : and to deny to some of his members , that which he hath willed and commaunded to be common to all . Ioyned , that the reason of the Sacrament requireth it : which was instituted for our spirituall nourishment . The which ( as doth the corporall ) consisteth in drinke & meate . To the ende then , that there be some correspondency betweene them two , it behoueth , that as we are fed with the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified : So be we also watered with his blood shead , for the remission of sinnes . To be short , seeing that the Supper was chiefly instituted to shewe foorth the Lords death : and that in his death , his blood was seperated from his bodie : Meete it is , that the bread and wine be there administred , to represent the one and the other , and more clearly to propose vnto vs , all the mistery of the death of Iesus Christ .

For answere to the eight question , the Ministers do acknowledge no other cause , nor meane of remission of sinnes , then the grace of God , the blood of Iesus Christ , and faith ; whereby the effect of Gods grace , and the fruit of the death of Iesus Christ are applied vnto vs .

For answere to the ninth question , the Ministers do say : that the faithfull comming to the Supper , do not come thither to receiue there a new Iesus Christ , with whom they had not bene formerly conioyned : nor a new righteousnes , which had not bene communicated vnto them . And they adde , that if some one did present himselfe there without faith , ( for want whereof he should not be vnited , incorporated and engraffed into Iesus Christ , to bee partaker of his righteousnes , life , and all other his gifts and blessings ) : that the holy Supper in that case , should be as vnprofitable to him , as is meate vnptofitable to a dead man . But , if liuing by the meanes aforesayd ( namely the grace of God , the blood of Iesus Christ , and faith ) he present himselfe there in such an estate : that then the graces of God be multiplied , increased , and more and more confirmed in him .

So that Circumcision , brought not vnto Abraham a new righteousnesse : but sealed and ratified that , which by the promise was communicated before vnto him . Which the faithfull , knowing in what degree of vertue they bee , yet ought they not to contemne the holy Supper , nor any way to abstaine from it , when occasion and meanes serue them to be there : Considering , that they cannot be so promoted nor aduaunced in the knowledge and feare of God , and in the faith of his promises , that they may not yet growe and profit ( in what estate soeuer they be ) by the meanes which God hath therefore left and ordained in his Church . And impossible it is , for a man hauing true faith in his heart , to do otherwise ; seeing hee hath the commoditie thereof : For as much as the nature of faith is not to apprehend the promises of God onely : but also to engender , and bring forth in the heart of the faithfull , a will to obey him , and keep his commaundements and ordinances .

For answere to the first Article which the Doctors propose touching their Masse , the Ministers say : that the Doctors do openly blaspheme Iesus Christ , to authorise with his name , and by his example , such an abhomination . And that they also mocke the Church & the world , in preaching and writing such Impieties .

For answere to the second Article of the Masse , the Ministers say : that there is in the Church no other sacrifice , by which men are reconciled to God , and which maketh him mercifull and fauourable towards them ( by appeasing his wrath ) then that onely and alone , which Iesus Christ hath once offered vpon the Crosse to his Father . The vertue wherof being eternall , to sanctifie all beleeuers , and to obtain vnto them for euer , remission and abolishment of sinnes : there is no need of any other , nor that which he hath once offered , be euer reiterate .

For answere to the third Article , the Ministers say : that they which approue the Masse , and other Priesthood , then that of Iesus Christ ; and wil establish for remission of sinnes an other sacrifice , then that he himselfe , with his body vpon the Crosse offered , are Antichrists : and abolish ( as much as in them lyeth ) all the vertue and fruite of the death & sacrifice of the sonne of God .

For answere to the fourth Article , the Ministers do alledge , what S. Paul writeth , to wit : That where remission is , Hebr. 10. there is no more offering for sinne . Now so it is , that by the death of Iesus Christ , remission hath bene obtained for vs : as by infinit passages of scripture appeareth . It followeth then , that there is no more oblation for sin , neither in the Masse , nor out of the Masse . And if there be none for the liuing , lesse is there for the dead .

For answere to the fift , the Ministers maintaine , that the Communion is of the essence of the Supper , as S. Paul sheweth in the first of the Corinthians , 10. and 11. Chapters . And as it is carried by the Cannon it selfe , and other things about the Masse .

For answere to the sixt , the Ministers say three things : First , that the Popish Masse is no Sacrament : then that the body of Iesus Christ is not there . And therof conclude , that then the bread and wine there remaining , ought not to be adored : which being creatures cannot be adored , but that they which adore them be Idolators .

For answere to the seuenth and last Article , the Ministers say contrary to the Doctors , that there is not any thing in the Masse , which is not either directly , or indirectly contrary to the word of God .

The Ministers for conclusion admonish the Doctors , & entreat them , not to depart ( as they haue formerly done ) out of the bounds of the matter , now proposed for disputation . To the end , that these two points which are now in debate betweene them , may be wholly and perfectly decyded , to the content and edification of them that shall reade the Acts of this conference .

Tuesday the 30. of Iuly , in the yeare aforesaid .

A briefe Reply of the Doctors , against the last Answer of the Ministers to them , sent by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois , the first of August , about seuen or eight of the clocke in the euening . 1566.

THe Doctors , after their resolution giuen vpon the Artice of Gods Omnipotency , were not determined to returne any more therevnto : as hauing sufficiently handled that matter . But the horrour they haue of the new blasphemies , contained in the last writing of the Ministers , hath incyted them ( contrary to their purpose ) although not to reply , at the least to admonish the Ministers and the reader of this present Conference , of the said execrable blasphemies : which they are constrained to confesse , that will not acknowledge the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar : but dare therby deny the power of God himself . The consideration wherof ( as the Doctors hope ) wil not only confirme the Catholikes in the faith of the said article : but also ( by Gods assistance ) wil bring back many which are strayed , separating themselues from the Church Catholike : when they shall vnderstand the detestable errors & blasphemies which do follow the contradiction of the reall presence of the body and bloud of our Lord in the Sacrament . Which also should serue for the conuersion of the Ministers themselues : would they without passion examine the reasons & acts which haue bene proposed vnto them , touching the power of God : and sincerely iudge therof : as resisting the holy spirit , in stead of acknowledging their errors , they are turned to all maner of reproach and iniury against them , which of good will would admonish them ; and haue taxed them , that they tended not but to roote them out . Which thing the Doctors neuer minded : and desire not but the saluation of the Ministers , & of all those that are seperated from the true Catholike Church . Of which , their preachings shall beare witnesse : wherein they ordinarily exhort the people to pray vnto God for them . True it is , that they require the extirpation of the kingdome of Sathan ▪ and the rooting out of all heresies and peruerse doctrine , rather by the preaching of Gods word , then by all other meanes . And they wonder why the Ministers are so pricked against them in their two last answeres : seeing they haue giuen them no occasion thereof , but haue taken it lightly , for no other reason , but because the Doctors haue written , that many propositions set forth by the Ministers , contained blasphemies , which they should content themselues to denie , or to proue that there are none , and leaue the iudgement thereof to the readers : without entering into such hotte coller , seeing they professe to bee so much mortified , patient , and modest , that albeit one should reproach them , they would not reproach againe . They should also well remember the faire tytles with which they honour the Catholique doctrine : as with the name of superstition , Idolatrie , impietie , abhomination , and many other like : yea not sparing the persons : calling the Popes , Bishops , & Priests , Antichrists , & Ministers of Sathan : against which reproaches , the Doctors content themselues to shewe by the word of God , when occasion serueth , that such tytles agree neither with the persons , nor yet the doctrine by them preached . Now although that the Ministers and their furie deserue a sharpe reply , yet to mittigate their so inflamed hearts , the Doctors will not answere to the iniuries which touch their persons and estates : referring the whole to the iudgement of the vnpassionate readers : and will only touch the points which concerne the doctrine .

First , the Ministers do great wrong to the Doctors and their like , in comparing them to Donatists , and falsly to impute vnto them , that they tie the Church in a certaine place , ( as did the Donatists ) which placed it onely in Affrike . For it is manifest to all , that the Doctors know not , nor confesse any other Church , then the Catholique : which ( as it name importeth ) hath bene visible since the Apostles time , and hath her spreading through the world , in what region , country , or place soeuer , the faithfull beleeuing in Iesus Christ are . Although they reuerence the Church of Rome , as chiefe and principall among others : as Ireneus , Tertullian , S. Ciprian , S. Augustine , and other the auncient Fathers , haue giuen it this honour , to confesse it to be principall and mother ( as it were ) of other Churches ; with more iust reason , may such obiection be retorted against the Ministers : who cannot say their Church to be Catholike : hauing taken it beginning in our time , seene & known at Geneua , founded vpon the priuate opinion of one man : without that in former time one could shewe such opinion to haue beene holden in any Nation whatsoeuer . Which thing shall be handled in it order , when they shall examine the errors by the Ministers maintained against this Article ; I beleeue the holy Catholique Church .

Moreouer , the Ministers should not haue alledged the violence , crueltie , and furie of the Donatists , against the Catholiques : for such example doth condemne them , and their like . But because it doth not but bring fresh to memorie the passed euils , which Fraunce hath endured by the instigation of the Ministers , for feare to incyte them further to say new iniuries : the Doctors will not dwell long vpon this matter . Neuerthelesse , they shewe vnto the Ministers , that the Donatists reproached the Catholiques , that they endured persecution by them , and that to roote them out , they sollicited the Emperours and Magistrates euen as the Ministers doo blame the Doctors . Who confesse : first to desire the conuersion of all Sects , and in case they will not come to repentance , that the Magistrates by good and holy lawes may execute such punishment therefore , as God bee not so outragiously blasphemed , and the people grieued . And therein they follow the doctrine of Saint Augustine , expressed in an Epistle , sent Advincentin contra Donatistas . Where he confesseth , that the Catholiques did persecute the Donatists : and that contrariwise the Donatists also afflicted the Catholiques : but that the persecutions were different . That those of the Catholiques were not executed but by the Magistrate , and came of charitie , to roote out the euill , which hindred the peace and tranquilitie publike . And contrariwise , the persecution by the Donatists , was made without authoritie of the Magistrate , and proceeded of malice : which pretended but mischiefe and ruine : and S. Augustine declareth that the first was good , and of God : and the second wicked , and by inspiration of Sathan . And to this purpose he bringeth many excellent examples of holy scripture .

This hath bene somewhat largely handled , to purge the Doctors of the slaunder imposed on them by the Ministers : where they reproach them , that in their preachings , writings , and conferences , they search but onely to roote out the Ministers : whom they haue alwayes persecuted . And they interpret the same as therefore proceeding from a particular hate of the Doctors against them : and not of charitie , and zeale of truth , and of the conuersion , as well of the Ministers , as of those which are seduced and abused by them . The Doctors therein call God to witnesse , and doo protest the contrarie , and pray the Ministers to beleeue them , attending therevpon the iudgement of God , who is the onely searcher of the hearts and affections of men .

As touching the Article where the Ministers say that God is almightie , because he can do whatsoeuer he will , had they listed to read the writings of Saint Thomas ( whose doctrine they disdaine ) well had they knowne , that this reason is no reason . Because the Angels , and they which are blessed , conforming themselues alwayes to the will of God , can doo all things that they will doo : and there is no creature which can hinder the effect of theyr will , and yet are they not almightie . And as touching the saying of S. Augustine , in taking it so as the Ministers do take it ; The reason of Gods omnipotencie is ouer-weake and false . But to haue the true vnderstanding of this sentence , it behoueth to consider , that there is a difference betweene the actuall will of God , and the power of will .

For God can wil many things which he willeth not , nor euer will . And euen so can he will more then he actually willeth : whereby they ought rather to measure his omnipotencie , then to measure it according to his actuall will . And thus must be interpreted the text of S. Augustine , that the almightinesse extendeth to all things which he can will , and not according to that he actually willeth . And S. Augustine is cyted by the Ministers , being destitute of testimonie of scripture , albeit they vaunted in their former answere , to haue learned this reason by the scriptures .

In the article following , the Ministers by slaunder doo falsly taxe the Doctors , to haue cut off some words of theyr last writing : which will not be found to bee true . For the text of the Doctors beareth these words . It is not to bee doubted , but that aboue all conceit and imagination of humane spirit , the power of God is great , infinite , and incomprehensible . Where it clearly appeareth , that the Doctors speake generally of all conceit and imagination , without any exception thereof , be it of wisedome or folly . Therfore was it not needfull to expresse the words of the Ministers , seeing that the Doctors spake generally . And that which goeth before doth shewe the same : as the Ministers haue cyted it : where it is said , that the Doctors reproued the said Ministers , because they gaue some restraint and limitation of the omnipotencie of God . For as much as they would not stretch it generally to all the things which men can conceiue , and in their mindes imagine . Where the words generally , and all things do sufficiently declare , that the Doctors haue willed to comprehend end the foolish phantasies and imaginations themselues , which men may apprehend according to humane iudgement , and haue willed to cut off nothing from the writing of the Ministers : who peraduenture haue thought , the Doctors would not say , that God can doo all that which a foolish braine can imagine : as fearing they would inferre against them , that God then should commit some folly . Which would not follow : For albeit that some things be esteemed follyes in the iudgement of men , neuerthelesse seeing they be in themselues possible , they may bee done of God ; but wisely , although humane sence do iudge the contrary : euen as in many iudgements man is deceiued : esteeming that folly , which ( as saith Saint Paul ) is wisedome to wards God . The Doctors then say , that 1. Cor. 5. all things imaginable to man , are without exception to bee done as touching God : the things excepted , which imply contradiction to be , and not to be . Which cannot be done in regard of the repugnancie comming on their part , and not by default of the power of God . The Doctors pray them that shall bee able to reade these Conferences , to note , that the Ministers are alwaies found false accusers , when they taxe the Doctors with slaunder : as in the former writing they remaine thereof conuinced .

The Ministers shall finde themselues also false accusers in the article following : there where they cut off the saying of the Doctors , and falsly impute vnto them , that they haue written , God can do something against order . The Doctors haue well said , that it is blasphemy to say , that God could do nothing against the order by him established in the world . Where appeareth the slaunder of the Ministers , who haue clipped the sentence , and taken away these words [ Established in the world ] . In that they inferre , it is blasphemy to say , that God can doo a thing which is not well ordained . It is doublesse , but to doo some matter against the order established in the world , importeth not some thing disordered : but onely a mutation and chaunge of order , without any disorder , which the Ministers confesse in their article following .

The Doctors haue in great execration the blasphemies contained in the next article . Of which the first is , that one body to bee in diuers places , is a thing derogatorie to the truth of God : for as much as in God there should bee yea and nay . So that the Ministers doo say , that God should not be true , if hee caused one body to bee in diuers places . And yet teach they not , nor can teach , that God hath euer said , that one body could not bee in diuers places . It impugneth the wisedome of God : because that in his workes ther● should be disorder and confusion . Wherin they likewise confesse , that God should not be wise , if he caused one body at one instant , to be in diuers places .

The third is , that such a thing repugneth the omnipotencie of God . For in such a worke there should be imperfection . So that , so farre off is it ( after the Ministers opinion ) that God in so dooing should bee almightie ; that contrariwise he should be imperfect and weake .

The fourth is , that were such a thing done , it should bee against the eternall and vnchangeable will of God : and therefore God should bee mutable : which blasphemies doo necessarily disgorge a manifest Atheisme : to wit , that God should not bee God , if hee made one bodie to bee in diuers places at one selfe-same instant : For God cannot be but true , wise , almightie , and vnchangeable : which blasphemies the Doctors doo content themselues to quote and marke onely : and to admonish what simple stuffe issueth from the doctrine of them , which denie the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament , without dwelling vpon further confutation of them : as beeing too manifest , and hauing regard to that which Ireneus saith : that some heresies there be : which to discouer , is to refute them .

In the article following , do they gainesay that which so often they haue said , that God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places at one instant : because it repugneth the order which he hath established in the world . As if God could not do otherwise , then according to the order alreadie by him established . In the present article they confesse , that God can change and vnchange the said order . From which confession the Doctors drawe such an argument : God can chaunge and alter the order which hee hath established in the world : and that without preiudice to his truth , wisdome , power , and vnchangeable will . Therefore can he chaunge the order , by which he hath established ( as the Ministers wil say ) that one body shuld be but in one place ; & cause contrariwise , ( the order being chaunged ) that one body shall bee in diuers places : without that the same is any way derogatorie to his truth , wisedome , power , and will . And that by consequence , God of his omnipotencie can cause one body to be in diuers places .

As touching the article of the distinction of the will of God , the Ministers do confound the whole : vnderstanding nothing in the said distinction , no more then in that which they say , that one body to be in two places , is in the ranke of things which God hath declared by his word , against the which he can do nothing . The question is first of the omnipotencie of God , which is reduced to his power , and not to his essence , and to that which he is in himselfe : as to be one , wise , good : which things belong not to the matter of the omnipotencie , but of the essence in himselfe . Secondly , what reason is there to confer the being of one body in one place : or to know whether God can cause it to be in two or many places : with the essence of God , which is one , incomprehensible , &c. seeing that such things of number , pertaine to the essence of God , and power to make one body in many places , doth nothing properly belong vnto it , and is not referred vnto the same . Thirdly , the Ministers say , that God by his word haih declared his will , because he was one : which nothing serueth to the present matter . But ( pardoning the Ministers such follies ) how dare they compare with the matter of Gods essence , that which is in question of the being of one body in one , or in diuers places ? seeing God hath neuer said that he could not do it : as he hath manifestly shewed all the other perfections , which pertaine to the diuine essence . Wherby it appeareth , that it sufficeth the Ministers to fill vp paper , without founding their saying vpon solid reason .

For as much as they repute it slaunder , when one cutteth off some of their words , albeit the full sence abide : the Doctors do wonder , that the Ministers haue not feared the like obiections to them . But they are so accustomed therevnto , that they cannot beware thereof . As in the article where mention is made of the definition of a body , they passe that ouer in silence , which giueth solution to theyr difficultie . The Doctors haue defined a bodie to be a kind of firme quantitie , of three dimensions , length , breadth , and deepenesse : which definition comprehendeth the whole essence of one body , which is of the predicament of quantitie : and no mention is any way made of the circumscription of place . The Ministers say , that the Doctors by their definition , doo limit the body , and therefore it is circumscript . But they haue maliciously omitted ( as it is to bee supposed ) this little word [ place ] . For the question is not , whether a body be lymited , or no , seeing that no man doth call it infinite . But the question is , whether it bee essentially circumscript of place , so that it cannot bee a body , if it bee not in place : for as much as the Ministers could not answere to the argument of the Doctors , they haue cut off that which annoyed them .

The foure next articles deserue no new reply : and therefore the Doctors send backe the readers to that which heretofore hath bene said . They onely admonish , that it is a great matter which the Ministers do hold , that a myracle could not bee done in the body of Iesus Christ , without chaunge of his nature : and such an opinion do they impose vpon Instine , who hath said and maintained ( with the other Auncients ) that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores without chaunge of nature , albeit that the operation of the myracle , was wrought in the nature of the body , without changing the same : but in giuing it a spirituall qualitie and perfection , to wit , subtiltie , aboue the natural qualities of a body .

With like boldnesse , call the Ministers the scripture of the Camells passage through the eye of a needle , a parable and similitude : as they doo that of the Supper , and all others which withstand their errors . And the better to escape , they say that God saueth not , but changeth and conuerteth the rich man : and so cannot make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle , without diminishing and changing of his grossenesse . But the Ministers will not consider , that when our Lord spake of the rich man his entrie into the kingdome of heauen , he put not the difficultie in the entring of the kingdome properly , but in the conuersion of the rich man : by which , hee should obtaine the entrie and possession of heauen . Therefore when our Lord saith , that it is more easie for God , to cause a Camell ( or Cable ) to enter through the eye of a needle , then a rich man the kingdome of heauen : hee intendeth to compare the conuersion of a rich man ( which is vnpossible with men ) to the passage of a Camell abiding in his grossenesse : otherwise , there should bee no apparance of difficultie : and our Lord would not haue saide , that such a thing had beene impossible to men .

The Doctors say moreouer , that they haue not produced this place , to proue and inferre properly the penitration of dimensions : but to shewe , that God can make a body to occupie place , not proportionable to it greatnesse : which is as well contrarie to the nature of a grosse and thicke body , as that one body be in diuers places .

Where the Ministers do boast , that they are not constrained to confesse any thing of Gods workes , alledged by the Doctors out of the scripture : it followeth not that the Doctors out of the scripture : it followeth not that the Doctors haue brought forth vaine reasons to constraine and conuince them . And for the same referre them to the Acts of the Conference . And as touching the knowledge , whether God could do such myracles alledged , aboue the nature of a body , the Ministers cannot escape whatsoeuer euasion they pretend , vnconuinced ( if not openly , yet silently at least ) to haue denied , as well the power as the deed : For , affirming that God canot cause one body to be in diuers places , because it repugneth the order by him established in the world , and his wisdome and wil , which disposeth all by good order ; and that it was against the nature of a body : albeit as much may bee said thereof , as may truly bee said of all the other things ▪ mentioned touching one body : and that there are like reasons : in confessing the one , they must necessarily confesse all the others , that there is the like reason .

The Ministers vnable to giue any difference , and shewe why God cannot do the one , and that he can doo the others , haue silently consented thervnto . And although they would neuer confesse the debt , and yeeled themselues vanquished , as they do boast , it is no maruell : for it is the nature of heretikes , to be obstinate , and resist the truth , what reasons soeuer are proposed vnto them . The Scribes and Pharisies neuer confessed to be ouercome of our Lord , albeit his arguments were vnreproueable . And albeit they that withstood S. Stephen , had nothing to answere , yet left they not to resist the holy Ghost , which spake by him : as the Ministers doo resist the same spirit , which speaketh in the scripture , and by the mouth of the auncient Fathers , concerning myracles done in the body of Iesus Christ aboue nature . Which the Ministers do repugne , by I know not what vaine and friuolous starting holes . S. Ierome speaketh well to this purpose , Haeretici conuinci possunt , non persuaderi . Heretikes may bee conuinced , not perswaded . And Tertullian writeth : Duritia baeretica vincenda est , non suadenda . Hereticall obduration is to be vanquished , not perswaded .

And as touching the iniuries which the Ministers in this behalfe do multiply against the Doctors , in that doo they imitate all the aduersaries of truth , and giue testimony of the disquiet which such manner of people endure in theyr mindes , when their errors are shewed them . Of whom the Doctors haue pittie and compassion , & pray God to restore them to their right sences . For as much as they know , that the conuersion of an heretike , is one of the matters reserued to the omnipotencie of God .

In vaine doo the Ministers labour to produce store of Greeke , to shewe that Penetrare Caelos , dooth not signifie to passe the heauens without opening : because the Verbe [ Dierchestai ] is found , for passing where there is an opening . But the Doctors neuer said , that [ Penetrare ] or [ Dierchesthai ] may not be applied to open places : or that one pearceth in opening of them : for well do they know , that it is met with in all Authors .

They haue well said , that the Ministers would inferre a reall opening of the heauen , by the rigor and proprietie of the verbe Aperire : So might they also inferre , that the heauens were shut in the ascention of Iesus Christ , by the verbes Dierchesthai , and Penetrare , which strictly do signifie , to pearce or passe through , without that of it selfe it importeth an opening : albeit a man may vse the same where there is an open passage . But by the rigour of theyr signification can they not necessarily inferre an opening , if the opening bee not shewed from some other place , by some word , or euident condition of the thing pierced : as it is in the texts by the Ministers alledged . Now in the ascention these words [ Dierchesthas ] , and [ Penetrare ] , are put for to pierce : and no word is there added , which importeth a division of the heauens . The condition of which , nor the state of the glorified body of Iesus Christ , doo not constraine that one necessarily vnderstand an opening to haue beene made , to suffer the body of Iesus Christ to enter . Therefore did the Doctors wel reason of the rigor of [ Penetrare : ] as the Ministers did of the rigour of [ Aperire : ] which more often is found in the scripture without signification of the reall opening of the heauens , then [ Penetrare ] is found in the scripture to signifie a diuision and actuall cutting of the heauens . For Aperire Caelos , is often found for imaginary and spirituall opening ; and hardly is Penetrare Caelos euer found for actuall diuision of the heauens . And therefore had the Doctors better reason to conclude , by the rigour of the verbe Dierchesthai , or Penetrare , ( to pierce without actuall diuision of the heauens ) then the Ministers had to inferre the opening of them by the verbe Aperire .

The Ministers in the last article obiect to the Doctors , that they haue passed ouer some places of scripture , by which it appeareth , that faith is the worke of God , whervnto ( say the Doctors ) that in some one of their writings they haue expresly confessed , that faith , in as much as it is a gift of God , it is a worke of God : but in as much as he that beleeueth worketh together with God , in beleeuing ( for Nemo credit , nisivolēs , no man beleeueth vnlesse he be willing ) it is a humane work . And it is not repugnant one self-same work , for diuers causes to be a worke of God , and a worke of man . And where they say , that the auncient Fathers haue said ( if not in proper , yet in equiualent termes ) that God could not cause one body to be in diuers places : that is false . And the Ministers neuer haue , nor can shewe the same : and contradict their last writing . For bringing the reason , why the Fathers haue not expresly said it : It was ( said they ) because they neuer thought that such an absurditie would euer fall into the braine of man . Which reason ought to haue place , for the saying in termes equiualent , as in expresse termes , sith one selfe-same thing is signified as well by the one , as by the other .

As touching the rest , the Ministers neuer answer to the principall point , whereof they haue bene so often admonished : and they efsoones admonish them , should they a thousand times call this saying a repetition : to wit , that they are required to bring scripture , to proue that it repugneth the order established in the world , the truth , the wisedome , omnipotencie , and vnchangeable will of God , that one body may be in two places : which thing they cannot do : but they will answere , as they are accustomed : that is to say , nothing . Wherein appeareth , that their doctrine is not founded vpon Gods word , but vpon their owne opinion , or particular inspiration , which cannot be but of Sathan . For it cannot be of the holy Ghost which is against the common consent of the Church vniuersall . And vpon the same are also founded , the other articles of their religion : albeit they disguise them , and promise Gods word to euery purpose .

A short Aduertisement of the Doctors , vpon the Ministers Resolution , touching the omnipotencie of God .

THe Doctors are astonied at the fashion of the Ministers , in their words and writings . For they themselues from the beginning of the Conference , haue neuer had patience to prosecute & conclude one onely point , without mingling other things therewithall , impertinent to the matter in question : as shal appeare by the reading of the acts . And before their resolution made of the omnipotencie of God , they haue heaped vp all the articles which they could remember , and throwne one vpon an other without cause or reason . Although the Doctors at their request , had proposed the Articles of the Supper : And after dispute of the omnipotencie of God ( to make present the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament ) to come orderly to shewe and proue , that the will of God hath bene such , and that there it is . But the Doctors well vnderstand the good custome of all them of the pretended reformed religion : which is , to spet in the eyes of Christians , all the articles of the Religion , and theyr inuented filthinesse , all on one threed : to the end , that nought bee determined , that all abide in confusion , and that the Serpent glide awaye , hauing cast his venome .

Moreouer , by obseruation of the Ministers answeres , it shall bee seene and knowne , that they neuer stay vpon any certaine and the same answere , but rather of an act alledged out of the scripture : where of euery question , they haue giuen therevnto diuers impertinent , and sometimes vnsufferable answeres . Of which the Doctors do admonish them that can read these Conferences , and pray them to haue regard to the same , and thereof referre them to their iudgement .

Furthermore , the Doctors admonish the Ministers , that they may , or ought to knowe , that all Sects of our times doo cast before the eyes of those whom they will abuse , the same beadroll of Articles , which the Ministers in theyr Resolution haue gathered together , to get audience against the Church Catholique , and to bring in theyr heresies and errors , vnder the name of the glorie of GOD . Whereof they boaste to bee defenders as well as the Ministers . And therefore are they not so acceptable in theyr opinions and conclusions , that the Ministers can pretend any right , to exalt the power and glorie of God , by such mingling and confounding of all matters together .

Moreouer the Doctors shewe , that they may with better reason retort against the Ministers , the conclusion which they pretend to inferre , of the subtiltie and craft of Sathan : which is ( as they write ) that Sathan vnder faire shewe of pietie , glideth like a Serpent into the Church of GOD , to put therein disorder and confusion : and in the end to assaile God himselfe . The Doctors do pray each one to consider in himselfe , whether the Ministers purpose be not such by their deductions , and generally by the principall points of theyr doctrine . For vnder faire pretext to roote out some abuses and errors against the word of the Lord , which they falsly studie to perswade the world to bee in the Church Catholique : And vnder the shadow to preach , that they seeke the aduancement of the name of the same Lord , they goe about to spoile God of all his proprieties and perfection , albeit they no more declare it , then Sathan told his meaning to the first man .

Furthermore , the Ministers abase the merit and efficacie of the bloud of Iesus Christ , and open a doore by their doctrine to all vices and sinnes . Be it so , the Doctors will not repeate what the Ministers haue held , concerning the omnipotencie of God : because they shall fill their writings therewithall . But so it is , that in their goodly resolution ( although they suite it with seemely words ) that God cannot ( after them ) but so much as they please to receiue of his wisdome and will : which they disguise after their owne sence , when it is found declared in the scripture . Against the goodnesse of God they hold that he is the author and worker of euill , and of sinne . Against his mercie they teach , that he neuer pardoneth , nor will pardon a man which shall maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth : or which shall resist the same . Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ , and passion of the Crosse , in proper termes haue they written , that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death , and by the sheading of his whole bloud , he had nought done , nor profited for our redemption : if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule , the paines of the damned before his death : and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell . The Ministers do also instruct their adherents , that murther , adultery , robbery , theft , and euery crime whatsoeuer , is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate , who is neuer ( say they ) out of the fauour of God , what thing soeuer he commit : and do assure their faithfull , and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly , that they are in grace , and predestinate , which is in plaine termes ( albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse them ) to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse , and other articles which the Doctors will verifie , where the matter shall require the same .

If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings , and published in their Sect , the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin , wil testifie the same . To be briefe , behold the glory of God , and of his sonne Iesus Christ , wherevnto tend the Ministers , by the rooting out of the pretended impieties , mentioned in many articles of their last resolution . For briefe answere wherevnto , the Doctors doo say , that some things by slaunder of the Ministers , are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church : that others are expressed in the holy scripture : and others drawne from the same , and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles , and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church : the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article . And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place , if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie : but if to make their doctrine confused , they persist to mingle all together , the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere . Moreouer , the Ministers in generall , doo rightly attribute to the power of God : and say well , that the certaine knowledge thereof , is to be taken by the scriptures , which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors .

Very well say they also , that it is infinite and incomprehensible . But when they come to particularities , and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth , then forget they holy scriptures , and without them do measure the same , according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God : & according to the order established in the world : and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit , they tie it to the condition , proprietie , & natural order of creatures : As though to make something against , or aboue the order , condition , & natural proprietie of the creatures , were a thing repugnant to the wisedome , nature , and wil of God . Behold the short resolution which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion , touching the omnipotencie of God : which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors . And as touching S. Augustine , which they produce for them , he hath bene answered heretofore .

The Doctors refer them to their writings , concerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax them to hold , as a sufficient argument ( to infer some matter to be done of God ) to shewe that he hath power to do it . The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie .

The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers , as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature . Who haue onely said , that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith , founded vpon the word , commeth from the consideration of naturall things , against the power of God .

Concerning Abraham , the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth , that he & his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God . And considered Corpus suum emortuum , & mortuam vuluam Sarae . His owne dead body , & the dead wombe of Sarah : vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotencie . And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham , from his first vocation , vntil after such assurance , without putting distinction in the Historie , of that which was before , or after such assurance : as is that which the Apostle saith , that he considered not Corpus suum emortuum , his owne dead body , but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse , & of the promise made vnto him .

The Doctors say : they haue better concluded according to the faith , we ought to haue of the power of God ( to make one bodie in diuers places ) then the Ministers haue done : which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpon , & to beleeue that God could not do it , or that it repugneth the wisedome , prouidence , and eternall vertue , or the humanitie of Iesus Christ , yea the nature of a simple bodie only . But concerning all that , the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption , and particular reuelation , without one onely passage of scripture , wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion . Contrariwise , haue the Doctors founded their faith ( not on the power of God onely , to make one body in diuers places , but to beleeue the deed , and that God hath so willed ) on the holy scripture : as in theyr Resolution is contained : with the passages of auncient Fathers , which they to this end haue alledged . Which are so plaine , that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same . And their starting holes shall be conuinced by the simple reading of the bookes .

For all the rest of the Ministers resolution ( where are mightie iniuries , Impostures , and slanders against the Doctors ) they answere nothing : hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing . And the Doctors also do well vnderstand , that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers : who more esteem their owne particular reuelation , for their whole instruction , then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall , and all Christians together . And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them , as people voyd of sound sence , and without iudgement : which thing they declare , by theyr maner of dealing .

An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors , against the answere of the Ministers .

WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper , it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is , which the Ministers haue done , in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter . For it shall be proued , as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made , to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter : and then at more leisure to put it in writing ( which the Ministers haue refused ) : as also by the first obiections , which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie : wherby they touched the foundations , vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament . And shall moreouer be verified , in that the Doctors haue obiected to the Ministers some arguments against their Supper , to make them enter into the same . Vnto which they haue nothing answered : or so impertinently ( at the least ) as one may iudge by the reading of their answere , that they fled the Lists : as yet also they do , by their last writing : hiding as much as they possibly can , what they thinke of the Supper : albeit they haue bene admonished to answere therevnto plainely and to purpose . Whether the Doctors or the Ministers retyre , shall bee seene by effect : For albeit the Ministers will not answer , the Doctors will not leaue to aduise them thereof , and to manifest to all the world , the intollerable errors which bee in the Supper , and in all the doctrine of the Ministers : Who beeing demaunded , dare not confesse and auouch by writing , what hath beene written by the inuenters of theyr Supper .

Now to begin to speake thereof , the Ministrrs do maintaine it to be celebrated according to the ordinances of Iesus Christ , and after the fashion which the Apostles vsed , and all the Primitiue Church whiles it flourished , and abode in it puritie . Wherevpon the Doctors demaund , how long the Ministers esteeme the doctrine of the Supper to abide in it puritie ? And whether the Church were not then as pure in the doctrine of all the other articles , as of this ? Furthermore , whether since that time , there is not some place in the world , where the true doctrine of the Supper , and of other Articles , haue beene retained and conserued : and whether such doctrine hath euer continued without interruption ? and in what place ? and by whom hath it bene preached and set forth , and from age to age ? The Doctors desire the Ministers to make declaration thereof , for that it much importeth . For as much as before Caluin put forth his Catechisme , there was no memorie , that such doctrine as he taught , had bene held in any Region ; and the Supper was not celebrated after the fashion and maner as it is celebrated in the Church , called Reformed .

The Doctors would willingly cheare vp the Ministers , who are much disquieted in their writing , because the Doctors haue said , that their Supper differeth not from a common banquet , except in that it is worse : as being prophane and polluted .

To meete wherwithall , the Ministers haue made a great narration of the whole action of their Supper : and by faire shewes , which haue a forme of all godlinesse , they endeuour to make it very commendable , and to couer a new nothing betweene two platters . And contrariwise , that they may tread vnder foote and abase the thrise ▪ precious sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Masse , by renting in peeces some shewe of him : as if they were vsed without reason or signification , which the Ministers vnderstand not , or make semblance not to vnderstand . But things ought not to be prised and esteemed by their shewes , but according to their value , nature , and truth .

Moreouer , the Ministers should foresee , that all the Sects which bee now in the world against the Church Catholique , for the act of the holy Sacrament , doo vse at the least , as faire shewe as they . And were they thereof asked , there is not any which would not enforce himselfe , to proue , that it approacheth nearer to Iesus Christ and his Apostles , and the Primitiue Church , then the pretended reformed Religion dooth . Concerning all which , the Doctors referre them to the writings of the Lutherans , Zuinglianists , Anabaptists , Trinitaries , Maister Alasco , and such like .

For vnreasonable it is by such faire deceits , to preferre the Supper of the Ministers , to other Sects : & to iudge it good , holy , vnpolluted , and according to the word of God : but to repute it rather polluted , and defiled with impietie : for as much as it cloaketh a lye in stead of truth , and giueth the shewe of pietie , to impietie and falshood .

Also the Doctors haue not dispraised the Supper of the Ministers , for the praises therein giuen to God , or for the confession they there make of their sinnes : or the preaching ( if it contained the truth ) , or for other preparation . But therefore did they say it was detestable , because , against the ordinance of Iesus Christ , it contained not , but common bread and wine : and yet that they attributed vnto it some spirituall effect , and other faire pretext of godlinesse . The which is an abhominable thing , and inuention of Sathan , who endeuoureth by such maner of Supper , to abolish and extinguish the true Supper , according to the institution of Iesus Christ , and to depriue the faithfull of the fruite , and veritie of the same Supper : in causing them to giue common bread onely , instead of the body and blood of our sauiour Iesus Christ . The Doctors could as well recyte the euill shewes , as the Ministers do recyte the good , which be in their Supper : as the secrets , the new enterprises practised vnder colour and shadow of assemblies made in their said Supper . But to the ende the Ministers reproach not the Doctors , that Priests spake of armes , of contributions , &c. they passe it ouer with silence , and referre them to the thing it self : and wil content themselues to declare some causes , whereby they maintaine , that there is no truth in the same Supper , according to the institution of Iesus Christ : which are such as follow .

That in the Supper of the Ministers , and theyr like , no consecration can be made of the matter of bread & wine which are there proposed . And that for this cause , there is not in the same matter any change made , be it before , or in , or after the vse . And by consequence that the bread and wine in such a Supper , cannot be but common . That no consideration is made in their Supper : hereby appeareth , first , that it belongeth not to all persons , to consecrate bread and wine in the Supper : but onely to those that by imposition of the Pastors and Bishops hands , are lawfully ordained according to the succession from the Apostles time , euen vnto vs . Now certaine it is , that the most part of the Ministers of the Church , called Reformed , be not ordained by the laying on of the Pastors hands , who haue the power by succession from one to an other since the Apostles . Whereof we must conclude , that such Ministers vsurping the office which pertaineth not to them , cannot make any consecration , and giue not by consequence but common bread and wine . Which article shall be spoken of , when we shall entreat of the sacrifice and Priesthood . Secondly , to make consecration of the bread and wine , it sufficeth not that the person be fit to consecrate the matter : but also it is necessary , that the lawfull Minister by a certaine meane , do make the consecration : to wit , by blessing , and pronouncing of certaine words ouer the matter proposed ; euen as Iesus Christ hath first obserued it . And because the Ministers ( albeit they were lawfully ordained , and that they had authoritie and power to consecrate ) vse not the blessing and pronuntiation of certaine words ouer the bread and wine , ( withstanding that which Iesus Christ first did , and then ordained to his Apostles and their successors so to doo ) they cannot take any consecration of the bread and wine , and that in them any chaunge happeneth . Whereof it followeth , that they differ not from common bread and wine , and that such a feast and banquet is but common . And that it is blasphemy to attribute vnto it , the name of Christs Supper . Behold , why partly the Doctors haue said , that the Supper of the Ministers is a prophane and polluted banquet .

The Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere to purpose and plainely , to the demaunds by them proposed , which they haue not done : which is the cause that the Doctors , least they should trauell in vaine , haue not yet willed to impugne their answere : summoning them eftsoones to answere what is proposed to them , without drawing backe from the Conference , which ( they say ) they affect so greatly . The first demaunde was generall for all the Sacraments : to wit , whether the Ministers did beleeue , that two things were essentiall and necessary , to the confection of the Sacrament : namely , the matter , or element , and the word .

The Ministers answere , that the Sacrament in it perfection considered , consisteth in three things , &c. They speake indeterminately : so that one cannot iudge , whether they vnderstand theyr saying of the Sacrament , which they call the Supper onely : or generally of all , as they were demaunded . Although because they alledge Ireneus , one may coniecture , that they meant but of the Sament of the Supper .

Moreouer it behoueth to note , that which they adde ( in it perfection considered ) : to haue alwaies a starting hole , when speech shall be made of the essence of the Sacrament . The Doctors require that the Ministers answere to the question proposed generally of all the Sacraments . For there is lyke reason as touching the essence of the Sacraments in generall . And that they openly declare what things be essentiall , and necessary to a Sacrament , to be made a Sacrament : without speaking for the present of the perfection of a Sacrament , containing the essence and spirituall fruites , which be not of the essence of the Sacracrament .

To the second demaund , the Ministers answere no more pertinently then to the first . And namely where the Doctors haue demaunded , whether it behooued to vse certaine words for the confection of a Sacrament : and what word was necessary for the Sacrament of the Supper . The Ministers haue sayd , that the lowe and secret speaking of certaine words , addressed to the elements , was not the word necessary to the confection of a Sacrament . But they demaunded not , whether it behooued to pronounce that word , with a lowe , or high voyce : but the Interrogatory was , whether there be any words necessary to make the Sacrament , that one ought to pronounce ouer the matter , or in administring the matter : and that they might be such words for the Supper . And it is not sufficient to say , that the word , by which the ordinance of Iesus Christ is declared , is the word of the Sacrament : but it behoueth to answere , in what words consisteth that word , and when it must be pronounced .

As touching the sixt and principall demaund , the Ministers answere not clearly , and to purpose : but make a captious answere : by which one may conceiue what is their opinion of the presence & participation of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper . And so temper they their saying , that there is no Zuinglian , nor Almanists , which confesseth not thereof as much , or more then they : To wit , that they are conioyned to our Lord Iesus Christ , & that they possesse him in the power of their faith , and by the operation of his holy spirite , to be made flesh of his flesh , and bones of his bones , &c. But this is farre off from the demaund : to wit , whether the faithfull in the Supper receiue into theyr soules , besides all the graces spirituall ( among which is the communication with our Lord Iesus Christ ) his true bodie and blood , really , truly , and substantially ? And whether the Ministers in the Supper make not distinction of the substance contained and perceiued in the Sacrament , with the fruites thereof proceeding ? And for more breuitie , the Doctors demaund , whether the Ministers do receiue , and approoue , that which Caluin hath written of the Supper , and of that they receiue thereof in his Catechisme , Institution , and other bookes .

As touching the seauenth demaund , the Ministers haue not vnderstood what hath beene proposed to them , touching the Concomitance : For they haue taken it , as if one demaunded , whether it were lawfull to receiue the Sacrament vnder one onely kinde or no. Whiche was not as then put in question . But suche a difficultie was proposed to them : namely , whether in theyr Supper , when one hath receiued the bread , before hee receiue the wine , he do participate of the true body of Iesus Christ , without hee be partaker of his bloud , vntill hee haue taken the wine : or hauing eaten the bread , whether he hath receiued the body and bloud , before he take the Cup ? To which demaunds , to auoyd vaine blotting of paper , the Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere , without wandering , and to render open confession of their faith . And that the Doctors may knowe , what doctrine they ought to impugne or approue .

As touching the articles of the Masse , the Doctors reserue them to their proper place : which is of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ . After it shal be knowne and proued that they be present in the Supper and holy Sacrament .

The fourth of August , the yeare aboue said .

The Ministers answere to the writing of the Doctors , sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois , the morning , being 7. of August . 1566.

THe Ministers leauing aside whatsoeuer is superfluous , and from the purpose in the writing of the Doctors , as be theyr repetitions and rehea●salls : dissembling also their iniuries and accustomed scoffings , ( by which they much more proue the hate they beare to the truth , and the Ministers , then the questions by them propounded ) will onely stay on the points which seeme to require some answere .

The Ministers first say , that they taxed not the Doctors to haue restrained the Church in a certaine place , but to a certaine company , and to the traditions giuen , followed , and by the same approued . And they magnifie God , that the Doctors doo now acknowledge the Catholique Church to stretch through the world : and that it is not inclosed in the boundes and limits of the authoritie , and traditions of the Romane Church : which the Ministers confesse to haue beene then much esteemed of the auncient Fathers , when errours , abuses , and vices , did not as yet there abounde , as since they doo . But now that all things almost are there corrupted , as well in manners , as in doctrine : and that nothing is there more odious , then the word , the light , the trueth , and the power of God . The Ministers do say : that as the state of the same Church hath beene chaunged , so ought to bee also the esteeme and reputation in which it hath beene : adding therevnto , that in whatsoeuer degree of honor she hath bene formerly lifted , she hath not neuerthelesse beene esteemed by the Fathers for the vniuersall Church , nor her Bishop for vniuersall Bishop : As by that which Saint Ierome wrote thereof to Euagrius : and by that which concerning the same , was determined in one of the Cone . 3. C. 26. Councells of Carthage , appeareth .

And as touching the reformed Church in France , the Ministers doo not say , that it is the vniuersall and Catholique Church , but only a member of the same : And that it hath it foundation , not vpon the opinion or authoritie of men : but vpon the doctrine & writings of the Prophets & Apostles . Moreouer , as touching the protestations of Charitie and zeale , whereby the Doctors feare to bee forced vnto Inuectiues and pursuites which they make against the Ministers , and other the faithfull , by the example ( as they say ) of Saint Augustine , and other Bishops , which in time past solicited the Magistrates against the Donatists : theyr proceedings and fashion which they haue , and still doo vse towards the sayd Ministers , and faithfull , do euidently declare , that with false tokens they shrowd themselues by these examples . For as much as the Catholiques , whome they alledge , exhorted the Magistrate to vse all moderation and mildn●sse towards the Donatists and other heretiques ; and to assay all meanes to reduce them , before they came to the rygor of paines and iudgement . And further , they endeuoured to containe and represse the fury of the people , and to hinder theyr open violence vpon them . Whereas they contrariwise , doo stirre vp against the Ministers , the people and Magistrates , by slaunder and false imputations ▪ and by all other fashions & meanes they can inuent for this purpose .

Touching the Omnipotencie of God , and the definition thereof , which the Ministers haue proposed , drawne and extracted out of the bookes of Saint Augustine : the Doctors in theyr last writing , produce no new thing , to cause them leaue the ●ame . For that they alledge of the Angels , which can do whatsoeuer they will , and by that meanes should be almightie as well as God ( if the abouesayd definition of his Omnipotencie had place ) is an example from the purpose , and which cannot prooue that there is in the Angels any such power , as in God . For certaine it is , that theyr will and power dependeth elsewhere , and that God ruleth ouer them , to chaunge , suspend and hinder them as he pleaseth , and as he can do in all other creatures . Which none can say of God , without blasphemy . Howsoeuer it be , If the Doctors will reproue the definition of Gods Omnipotency proposed by the Ministers , they deale not with them , but with S. Augustine : For as much as the said definition was word for word copied out of his writings .

The Ministers do maruell , that after they had so amply declared to the Doctors , what they thought of Gods Omnipotencie , and shewed , that it stretched not indifferently to all things which men in theyr foolish phantasies , may conceiue or imagine : the Doctors will eftsoones harpe on that string , alledging that God can do wisely , what fooles do foolishly imagine . For manifest it is , that fooles can imagine many things which are impossible to God . As for example , that there is no God . Psal. 14. and 53. That hee is corporeall , as thought the Anthropomorphites . That the world is eternall : as thought the Peripatetiques . That there was two beginnings : as taught the Manichees . All which thinges , can no way without blasphemie be attributed to the Omnipotencie of God . But that which more contenteth the Ministers , is , that our Maisters , after so long and sharpe combat in this Article , and so of●en crying blasphemie , when the sayd Ministers proposed the truth thereof , are constrayned in the end to accord with them , and follow the interpretation and restraint which the Ministers themselues had giuen touching the Omnipotency of God : as it appeareth by a sentence of theyr last writing , whereof the words are such . The Doctors say : That all things imaginable to man , are possible to be done with God , without any exception : but of those things which imply contradiction , to be , and not to be . What reason then is there , that for the things ( whereof the Ministers and Doctors agree , that they ought to be excepted out of Gods omnipotency ) the Ministers in excepting them , be held for blasphemers , & not the Doctors , which say & confesse the selfe-same thing ? Now this proposition that a naturall body ( yea that of Iesus Christ ) is in diuers places at one selfe-same instant , is in the ranke of things which imply contradiction : as it hath bin already sufficiently proued . Therfore the Ministers conclude , that the omnipotency of God cannot be referred & extended thervnto .

The Doctors doo afterwards charge the Ministers with foure horrible blasphemies ( as they say ) grounding themselues vpon that which the Ministers in defending that one body could not be diuers places at one instant ) haue said , that it repugned the truth , wisdome , and omnipotency of God . Which thing , the said Doctors finde so straunge , and farre from reason , that they would not vouchsafe to staie to refute it : thinking it was vnworthie of answere , and that it sufficed to haue recyted the same . Wherevnto the Ministers answere ▪ that it is a very easie and readie meane , to rid them speedily of all the difficulties wherein they finde themselues wrapped , to say , that it is a blasphemy , and vnworthie of answere .

The Doctors yet make instance to the Ministers , and say : that it behooueth them to shewe by the word of God , that one bodie cannot be in diuers places at one instant . Wherevnto the Ministers ef●soones answer ; that it is for the Doctors to proue the contrary by one text of scripture : to wit , that one body may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant : seeing that they are proponents in this Conference , & the Ministers respondents : and that neuerthelesse , they haue heretofore shewed them by liuely reasons , drawne from the scripture , and the essentiall proprieties of God , from . the nature of bodies , and the authorities of Fathers : that the thing in question was wholly impossible .

And touching the argument which they thus make , God can change the order which he hath established in nature . Therfore can he also cause that one body at one instant be in many places . The Ministers denie the consequence , and yeeld reason therof : for as much as such a matter should not onely change the order , but should wrap vp also a contradiction : the which , by the confession of the Doctors themselues , is excepted out the omnipotencie of God . The Doctors in the article following , do but reproach the Ministers , for they confound and obscure what had bene clearly proposed by the Ministers , in their last writing . By means wherof , let them make ( if they will ) more large an answer , and expound themselues better . Where the Doctors accuse the Ministers to haue maliciously concealed the word [ place ] in the matter of circumscription of a measured body : the Ministers say , that it was not needfull to adde that word expresly there . For as much as there is no man so ignorant , who ( hauing vnderstood that a body is circumscript ) but doth presently inferre , that then it is comprised in a place certaine .

As touching the Camell , if they be not contented with that alreadie said thereof , then let them reade what Saint Ierome hath thereof written , in his first booke against the Pelagians : who expounding the words of Iesus Christ , saith as followeth . In this hath the Lord not said , that it may be done : but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other . For as a Camell cannot enter through the eye of a needle : so the rich shall not enter into the Kingdome of heauen . Now if thou canst shewe that the rich man there entereth , it will also follow , that the Camell may passe through the eye of a needle . And alledge not vnto me Abraham , and the others , which we read in the old Testament to haue bene rich , and which being such , were entered into the kingdome of heauen , because they ( well vsing their riches , and imploying them to good workes ) haue by that meane ceased to be rich . Behold what S. Ierome writeth . Then , as it is necessary ( after the saying of S. Ierome ) that for the saluation of the rich man , there be a mutation and changing in his heart ; yea and that hee cease to be rich , to the end hee may enter into the kingdome of heauen : so also it behoueth , that there be a chaunge in the Camell , and that hee cease to be such : that he may be made to passe through the eye of a needle .

As touching the article following , the Ministers say , that by the grace of God , they may discerne the light from darknesse , and falshood from truth . Which is the cause , that they cannot approue , neither the arguments , nor conclusions of the Doctors , touching the being of one body in many places at one instant : being well assured by good and certaine testimonies of the scripture , that all whatsoeuer the Doctors will proue , not else-where proceedeth , then from the spirit of error and falshood . Which wil retaine by that meane , the impietie and Idolatrie , which hee hath formerly established in the world , to the ruine almost of all Christendome .

As touching the verbe [ Dierchesthai ] the Doctors finde themselues much hindred to saue their penetration : which they can no way found vpon the proper signification of that word : as hath bene shewed them by the passages produced vnto them , not vpon any authoritie of the scripture .

To that which the Doctors alledge ( to proue that faith commeth in part of our selues , & not wholy of God ) that Nemo credit nisivolēs , ( to wit , that none beleeueth but willingly ) the Ministers answer : that ( vnder our Maisters correction ) it is nought to the purpose : for as much as this will and consent is of God : who worketh in the faithfull , both the will and the deed . Which thing S. Augustine in one of his Epistles , verie well teacheth , where he saith : That when God calleth men to saluation , he findeth not in them any good will at all : but that he worketh and createth it in their hearts , if he wil finde it there . And that of S. Paul which the Doctors alledge , that we are coworkers with God , serueth nothing for their purpose : For the Apostle speaketh not there but of the Ministery . And meant no other thing , then what hee writeth therof more clearly in the 2. to the Corinths , in these words : 2. Cor. 5. We are Embassadors for Christ : as if God exhorted by vs . And touching that which they adde , that none of all the auncient Doctors euer taught , that one body could not be in diuers places at one selfe-same time : The Ministers say yea . As they haue shewed in their former writings , where the passages of S. Augustine , Ad Dardanum : and in the 30. tract vpon S. Iohn , and others haue bene alledged .

The Ministers answere not but to two points onely , of all that the Doctors haue touched in theyr aduertisement . The first is , that theyr Sermons , theyr writings , theyr discipline obserued in theyr Churches , the censures which they passe for scandalous offences therein committed , the care which they , and the Superintendents haue , to discouer , reprooue and correct them : the paine which they take to reforme whatsoeuer is disordered , and the publique prayers , which in all places they make to these endes : defend them with all good people : and iustifie them against the slanders of the Doctors . The second is , that the Doctors in theyr sayd aduertisement are deceiued , in that they haue said , that Abraham doubted of the promise . Which is wholy contrary to that which the Apostle in the 4. of the Romanes thereof writeth . Where , in these proper termes he saith : And he nothign doubted of the promise of God through vnbeliefe , but was strengthened in the faith , and gaue glorie vnto God .

For answere to the Doctors last Obiection , made ( as they say ) agaynst the answere giuen by the Ministers to theyr former Question , vppon the matter of the Supper ▪ Although the sayd Doctors , do faigne not any way to affect delaie in the Conference and Dispute of the Supper , and of the Masse : yet can they not perswade any person of any iudgement , that they haue not hetherto retyred , and doo yet drawe backe from entering thereinto . For notwithstanding some requests presented by Madame de Buillon and the Ministers , some declaration which my Lorde the Duke of Niuernois hath made therevppon , of his will and desire to bring them therevnto : yet by all the meanes aboue-sayd , hath it not beene possible to obtaine of them , that ( all other thinges set apart ) they would in good earnest , conferre with the Ministers of the two points aforesaid .

Which thing the Ministers perceiuing , and not desiring to depart from them , without conference first had therof : haue often protested to dispute no more with them , till these two Articles were first decyded and resolued . And to this ende proposed certaine Theses by order and good methode , as well of the one as of the other : to the ende they should well aduise what in the sayd Theses , they would gainsay and withstand .

The Doctors hauing dissembled the same , in stead of pursuing of them , doo propose other friuolous and vnprofitable questions , taken and drawne from theyr Schoole diuinitie .

And although the Ministers had iust occasion to grieue , that theyr Theses were omitted by the Doctors : neuerthelesse , to the ende they should haue no more shadowe nor colour of delaie , the Ministers haue also answered to their last questions . But now in stead of following theyr Answeres , and impugning of them , if any way they could : they propose againe newe questions , no lesse absurd and friuolous then the former . Whereby each one may euidently knowe theyr hypocrisie and dissimulation . And that pretending a willingnesse to conferre of the two foresaide pointes , they doo in the meane time , what in them possiblie lyeth , to drawe them from the Conference thereof : to the ende , it may breake off , before that this matter be cleared . By meanes whereof , the Ministers for conclusion , and resolution of all the Conference , determine by Gods grace , to couch briefly by writing , and in the clearest manner they can , all what God hath taught them concerning the same ; and what they haue learned thereof by his word : as well to satisfie the debt and bond which they haue to God , and his honour , to obey my Lord of Neuers , and Madame de Buillon : as lastly , for the contentment and edification of the whole Church .

The Conclusion and resolution of the points , as well of the Supper , as of the Masse , containing a declaration of that which the Ministers beleeue concerning the same : and teache thereof in their Church by the word of God .

THe end and chiefe felicitie of men , is to Psal. 37. 28. be conioyned with God , and to abide in him : For as much as it is the only meane by which all their desires can be contented and satisfied : and by the which also , their mindes and hearts can be plainly freed and deliuered , from the hard and cruel bondage of sinne , and of all the passions , greedie desires , feares & distrusts , which do assaile 1. Cor. 13 . them . Which was the cause , why S. Paul placeth perfect beatitude , and entire repose of the blessed in this : that God 2. Cor. 6. is all in all in them . But for as much as men be naturally corrupt and wicked , and contrariwise God in all perfection , is pure and holy : the difficultie is to knowe and choose the meane , by which they may approach vnto him . Seeing that there is no societie betweene light and darknesse , nor any communion betweene righteousnesse and vnrighteousnesse . In them cannot this meane bee found : by reason , that of themselues they are wholly vnable , and vncaple to relieue themselues from the miserie and curse , into which they be cast headlong .

So that , beeing blinde of vnderstanding , they cannot know their owne good : nor seeke it , being rebels and heart-hardened : and therefore of necessitie must they goe out of themselues , and seeke the aboue said meane in Iesus Christ : who was giuen them of the Father , to bee their righteousnesse , 1. Cor. 1. Iohn . 14. Ephes. 3. wisedome , sanctification , redemption , way , life , and truth . Then resteth it now to knowe , how they may bee vnited and conioyned with him . The Apostle dooth teach vs , that the same is done by faith , by which Iesus Christ dwelleth in our hearts , and abideth in vs : so Iohn . 17. that hee and wee are made one , and hee and his Father are one .

Now , there are two principall causes of this faith , the one outward , and the other inward . The inward is the holy Ghost , who is called the spirit of faith : for as much as he is 2. Cor. 4. 13. the Author thereof , and createth and bringeth it forth in the harts of men : mollifying and disposing them to receiue with all obedience , the word and promise of God , which is preached vnto them by the faithfull stewards , and Ministers of the same .

Rom. 10. Which word , is the outward cause of faith . And as the same faith groweth , and riseth by degrees , euen so doth the vnion which we haue with Iesus Christ , and by his meanes with God : vntill ( as saith S. Paul ) wee all meete together in Ephes. 4. the vnitie of faith , and knowledge of the sonne of God , vnto a perfect man , and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ .

The increase of faith is wrought by the working and power of the holy spirite , who was the first beginning and author thereof : and afterwards , by the continuance of the word purely preached and denounced : and finally by the lawfull vse of the Sacraments , ordained as seales for the certaintie and confirmation of faith , and assurance wee haue of the foresaid coniunction with God through Iesus Christ , and of the participation of all the good things , grauntes , gifts , graces , and blessings , which by his fauour are purchased and gotten for vs . As of the remission of sinne , of our regeneration , of the mortification of the flesh , and the lusts thereof . To signifie which things , and more amply assure vs of the exhibition and enioying of the same , Baptisme was ordained of God : to the end , that in the water which is powred vpon our bodies , and in the promise of God which is therevnto added , we may behold ( as it were with our eies ) the inuisible grace which God vouchsafeth vs , to wash and cleanse vs from our spirituall filthinesse , and to fanctifie vs , and make vs new creatures : As also to further assure vs alwayes of life eternall , and make vs growe in the hope wee haue thereof , by the participation of the flesh of Iesus Christ , crucified for our redemption , and of his bloud , shead for remission of our sinnes : the bread and the wine are distributed vnto vs in the Supper , by the ordinance of Iesus Christ .

But as the Ministers acknowledge , that there is a vnion , and sacramentall coniunction betweene the outward signe , and thing thereby signified : so ( say they ) on the other side , that betweene them two , there is such a distinction , that the one ought neuer to be confounded with the other : nor the spirituall thing in such sort fastened to the corporall , ( which representeth the same ) that the one without the other , cannot be receiued : or that the two by necessitie bee alwayes inseperably conioyned together . Whereof it followeth , that they erre , which will haue the bread in the Supper to bee chaunged into the substance of the bodie of Christ Iesus : And they likewise which will haue him to be conioyned , and corporally vnited therevnto . So that whosoeuer receiueth and taketh the signes , ( bee hee faithfull , or vnfaithfull ) taketh and receiueth forthwith the thing by them signified . Which error , with the most part of others happening in this matter , proceedeth of not well comprehending nor conceiuing what it is to eate the body , and drinke the bloud of Iesus Christ . Which thing ought not to bee vnderstood , in sort as corporall meates are taken and eaten , but after a spirituall manner onely : as is declared in the sixt of Saint Iohn : which in this consisteth ; that Iesus Christ dwelleth in vs , and we in him : and is done by the faith we haue in him : as teacheth S. Augustine in the 25. tract vpon S. Iohn , saying : Why preparest thou the belly , and the tooth ? beleeue , and thou hast eaten . And in the third booke and 16. Chapter de Doctrina Christiana : where he saith as followeth : When Iesus Christ saith : except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his bloud , ye haue no life in you . It seemeth that hee commaundeth to commit some great offence . It is therefore a figure , wherby we ought to vnderstand no other thing , but that it behoueth to communicate with the passion of the Lord : and to retaine in our memorie , that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs .

The eating then of the flesh and body of Iesus Christ , is no other thing , then a straight coniunction and vnion wee haue with him : which is made by the faith wee adde to his promises . Euen as by the mutuall promises made and receiued betweene man and woman , the marriage is concluded , and setled betweene them . And although being so conioyned , they be sometimes by some occasion seperated , and remoued the one from the other , as touching their bodies , yet for all that , do they not leaue to be one flesh , and one body , by meanes of the societie and matrimoniall familiaritie which is betweene them . In like case , albeit that Iesus Christ ( with whom wee are conioyned and vnited by the faith and trust which wee haue in him , and his promises ) bee as touching his bodie , resident in heauen , wee yet abiding vppon the earth ; and that by meanes thereof , there is great distance and space betweene him and vs , as touching his bodie : that neuerthelesse hindereth vs not , to bee flesh of his flesh , and bones of his bones : that hee is not our head , and wee his members : that hee is not our husband , and wee his spowse : that wee bee not of one selfe same body : that wee bee not engrafted into him , that wee be not cloathed with him : that wee abide not in him , as the boughes and buddes in the Vine . And there is neither distance of times , nor places whatsoeuer it be : there is no difference of times , which can hinder such a coniunction , and that the faithfull eate truly his flesh , and his bloud . For as the auncient Fathers , albeit they were two or three thousand yeares before Iesus Christ dyed , yet left they not to communicate in his flesh crucified , and to eate the same spirituall meate which we eate , and to drinke the same spirituall drinke which wee drinke . The faithfull also which are come twelue or fifteene hundred yeares after , leaue not , what place soeuer they be in , to participate ( as did the Fathers ) in the same meate , and in the same drinke , which they haue done . And no other difference there is betweene the eating of the Fathers which were before the comming of Iesus Christ , and of them that haue followed him , but the reason of more or lesse : that is to say , that there is in the one , more ample and expresse declaration of the good will of God towards vs , then in the other . Whence must be concluded , that from the beginning of the world vnto the end , there neuer was , nor shall be other coniunction betweene our Lord Iesus Christ and his Church , then spirituall : that is to fay , wrought by the spirit of God . For euen as there is but one faith in the Fathers and in vs , which respecteth alwayes on the one part and the other , our Lord Iesus Christ : so are we not also otherwise conioyned with him , then they haue bene . As then it is so , that the Fathers haue had no other societie nor communion then spirituall : It followeth thereof , that we also are not , nor can be otherwise , then spiritually conioyned with him . Neuerthelesse it is not said , that wee and the Fathers are not flesh of his flesh , and bones of his bones : and that all together , doo not partake as well in his humanitie , as in his diuinitie . But that which wee say is : that all this participation which wee haue in him , is by the operation & vertue of the holy Ghost : which thing , Christ Iesus in S. Iohn , speaking of the meane of this coniunction , teacheth clearly , when he saith : The Ioh. 6. 1. Cor. 10. things which I speake vnto you , are spirit and life . And S. Paul also , when hee saith : Our fathers did eate the same spirituall meate , and dranke the same spirituall drinke . Now when wee speake of this spirituall eating , common to vs , and to the Fathers : it must not therfore be thought , that we reiect the holy Supper of the Lord , or any way thinke that the same vse of bread and wine is superfluous : no more then the vse of the water in Baptisme . For our Lord knowing the blockishnesse of our vnderstandings , and the infirmitie and weakenesse of our hearts , and through the pittie he hath of vs , willing to helpe and remedie the same : hath not contented to haue left vs the ministerie of his word , to assure vs of the participation which we haue in his flesh , & in his bloud , and in all the good things thereon depending : but hath also willed to adde therevnto , the signes of bread and wine , which he hath as seales to his word , to seale in our hearts , by the vse of the same , the faith we haue of the foresaid coniunction by his word . So that it sufficed him not to haue contracted a couenant with Abraham , by the word and promise which he made vnto him : but added moreouer therevnto the signe of Circumcision , as a seale , for more ample confirmation and assurance of the said couenant .

To the end then , that each one may vnderstand what is the Supper of the Lord , and what the Ministers do thereof beleeue and teach : it is meete to consider and acknowledge in the same , three things . First the ordinance of the Lord contained in his word , and declared by his Ministerie , according to his commaundement : by which this holy cerimony hath bene ordained and established in the Church , for the edification and entertaining of the members thereof : which thing must bee diligently obserued , to haue it in that honour and reuerence as appertaineth ; and not to place it in the ranke of other cerimonies , which haue no foundation nor reason to authorise them , but the onely will and tradition of men . Neuerthelesse heed must be taken , that by the institution , and ordinance , whereof we make mention , we vnderstand not , a certaine pronuntiation of words , or any vertue which is hidden in the same : as do the Priests of the Romane Church : who by ignorance and superstitious opinion which they haue , thinke to haue consecrated , and transubstantiated the bread and wine in the Masse , by the vertue of fiue words : Hoc est enim Corpus meum . For this is my body , breathed and pronounced ouer the Elements . Wherein they are greatly deceiued and abused : for as much as the word which is the formall cause of the Sacrament , is not a word simply said and vttered , but a declaration of the institution and ordinance of God , made by the Minister , according to his commaundement : and a preaching of the death of Iesus Christ , and of the fruite thereof : by which , the hearts of the hearers are lifted vp vnto the contemplation , and meditation of his benefite , and their faith stirred vp and inflamed in his loue : and where the same shall not thus be done , it must not be thought , that the Elements be Sacraments . As S. Augustine in the 80. Tract vpon Saint Iohn , in these termes teacheth : Whence commeth this vertue to the water , that in touching the body , it washeth the heart , sauing that it is done by the word : not because it is pronounced , but because it is beleeued ?

This word is the word of the faith which wee preach . Rom. 10. 9. This ( saith the Apostle ) to wit : If we confesse with our mouth , that Iesus is the Lord , and beleeue in our heart , that God raised him from the dead , wee shall be saued . And continuing his speech , hee addeth in the end these proper words : to wit , This word of faith which wee preach , is that ( doubtlesse ) by which baptisme is consecrated , to the ende it might wash vs .

Of this , as before , do the Ministers inferre two things . The one is , that the word of consecration is not ( as is said ) a simple pronuntiation , but a publike and manifest declaration of the institution and ordinance , and of the whole mysterie of the death of Iesus Christ . The other , that the signes and Elements consecrated , are not chaunged as touching their nature and substance : but onely as touching the vse and signification : and that onely , during the action wherein they doo serue . For to consecrate the signes ( as the water in Baptisme , and the bread and wine in the Supper ) is no other thing , then to depute and make them serue to an holy and sacred vse , by the publike declaration of the ordinance of God , made to this ende : and not to chaunge them as touching theyr nature and substance . The which ( vanishing away , and beeing abolished ) there should remaine no more of the signe , nor ( consequently ) of the Sacrament . Euen so then , as the water in baptisme , after consecration , abideth water , without that the nature or substance thereof in ought chaungeth or altereth : So also the bread and wine in the Supper , remaine as touching theyr substance , such after consecration , as they were before : else should there not bee Analogie , nor mutuall agreement betweene the signe , and the thing signified . For what comparison or conformitie is there betweene the accidents of bread , and the truth of the body of Iesus Christ ? Seeing that the accidents of bread , as the whitenesse and roundnesse , destitute of theyr substance , ( as the Sophisters doo falsly imagine ) could not nourish , nor sustaine the bodie : and by that meane , should not be proper to signifie , that the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ doo nourish and sustaine our soules .

This then must bee holden for a thing resolued , that the bread and the wine abide in their substance : which thing is clearely prooued by that which Iesus Christ ( speaking of that hee giuen his Disciples to drinke in the Supper ) calleth it , namely : fruite of the Vine . Which cannot Math. 26. bee applyed to accidents , but ought necessarily to bee vnderstood of wine in it proper substance . Also 1. Cor. 21. by that which Saint Paul saith : calling the Elements of the Supper three seuerall times bread and wine : yea after they haue beene consecrated . Also by that which hee sayeth else-where : Wee which are many , are one bread 1. Cor. 10. and one body : for as much as wee are all partakers of one selfe-same bread . For there hee will teach vs by the comparison of bread and wine , hee proposeth vnto vs , that as it is composed of many graines , so pasted and mingled together , that one cannot distinguish nor seperate one from an other : So also ought all the faithfull in the Church to be so conioyned and vnited together in one selfe-same body , that it seemeth and appeareth , they are members one of an other . Now very foolish and from the purpose should this comparison be , if the bread which we eate in the Supper , and vpon which this comparison is founded , were not true bread . Also by that which Gelacius Bishop of Rome , writing against Eutiches saith : The Sacraments ( saith he ) which we take , is a thing diuine : and neuerthelesse doth it not cease to bee substance and nature of bread and wine . Also by that which writeth Theodoret in his first Dialogue , and in these proper termes : The Lord hath honoured with the name of his body and of his bloud , the visible signes which doo represent them : neuerthelesse without changing the nature of them , but onely adding grace to nature . The same Author in the second Dialogue , speaking likewise of the bread and wine , which are distributed in the Supper , saith as followeth : After sanctification these misticall signes depart not from their nature : for they abide in their proper substance , forme , and figure . By meanes whereof , one seeth and handleth them after consecration , nor more nor lesse then he did before . Also by that which saith S. Iohn Chrisostome , writing to the Monke Cesarius , whose words are such . In the Supper we call that which is presented bread , before it be sanctified : and after sanctification thereof , by the diuine grace , and meane of the Minister , it hath no more the name bread , but of the body of the Lord : neuerthelesse , the nature of the bread is there still remaining .

By the passages aforesaid , as well of the holy scripture , as of the auntient Doctors , and others , which might be yet alledged for this purpose , it appeareth , that the bread and wine in the Supper abide alwayes ( as hath bene said ) in their proper nature and substance , as well after consecration , as before . And it must not be doubted , that the faith of the auncient Church hath not euer bene such : and that transubstantiation was not setled nor holden in the Romane Church for an Article of faith , vntill the time of Innocent the third .

To gainesay and reiect whatsoeuer hath bene said touching the nature and substance of signes , which remaine after consecration , the aduersaries of this doctrine do ordinarily alledge , that which Iesus Christ saith , speaking of the bread in the institution of the Supper : Take eate , this is my body : And resting vpon the naturall , and proper signification of the words , they obstinately defend , that the substance of bread vanisheth in the consecration : and that there remaineth no other substance , but that of the body of Iesus Christ . The reason thereof is , because they obserue not the figures and maner of speaking ; which be ordinarie and vsuall in the holy scripture , alwayes , and as often as the matter of the Saments is questionable . For then the name of the things signified , is ordinarily attributed to the signes , which do signifie and represent them : as the name of a couenant is attributed Gen. 17. Exod. 12. to Circumcision : because it was deputed to signifie and confirme the same .

Tit. 3. The Lambe , for like reason , is called the Passeouer : and Baptisme , the washing of regeneration : not because they bee like and semblable things , as the signes and mysteries signified by them : but for the conformitie that is betweene them , the signes ( as saith Saint Augustine ) take oftentimes Epist. 23. the name of the things which they represent . The error then commeth , because they take and vnderstand the fashions and maners of figuratiue speeches , as if they were proper and naturall .

Now that this kinde of speaking : Take yee , and eate yee , This is my body , is figuratiue , it appeareth by that which our Lord Iesus Christ addeth after the Cup , saying : This Cup is the new Testament in my bloud , which is shead for you . Where he calleth the Cup , Testament , and new Couenant in his bloud . Wherein it behoueth necessarily to confesse , that there is a figure , and that without the same , they cannot well vnderstand , nor fitly interpret the said passages : For it is a thing manifest , that a couenant ( which is a contract and bargaine betweene parties , made and conceiued vnder a certaine promise and word ) is not wine . And neuerthelesse it is so called by figure : for as much as the wine which is distributed in the Supper , and as the seale , by which the said couenant is sealed , and the faith thereof confirmed . By such , and like manner , this sentence [ This is my body ] which is as much to say , as this is the new Testament in my body , which is giuen for you , must bevnderstood and expounded . For as by the effusion of his bloud , the new Testament was confirmed : so was it also by the death of his body . And a better Interpreter of the words of Iesus Christ , then Iesus Christ himselfe , must not bee sought for . For certaine it is , that what he hath said of the Cup , is as it were a glasse , & cleare and familiar exposition of that he had more briefly and obscurely said of the bread . This also is proued by that which S. 1. Cor. 10. Paul saith : The bread which we breake , is it not the Communion of the body of Christ ? which is a manner of figuratiue speech . For as much as ( to speake and vnderstand properly ) the bread , which is a corporeall and materiall thing , is not the Communion which we haue in the body of Iesus Christ , which is a spirituall and inuisible thing . And neuerthelesse it is so called , because it is the signe thereof , to represent it vnto vs , and to assure vs of the same . As commonly we cal the signed and sealed Letter , which containeth the declaration of the last will of a man , his Testament : although it be not his Testament , but is properly the declaration , which he hath verbally made of his said will . But it is so called , because it is the instrument and testimonie thereof .

Now , as the scripture and auncient Fathers , as well to recommend and aduance the dignitie of the signes , and to hinder therby the contempt of them : as for the agreement and likenesse which is betweene the signes , & the thing signified , haue sometimes attributed the name of the same things signified , to the signes which represent them : and speaking of signes , haue vsed figuratiue speeches . At some other times also haue they spoken of them properly , to take away all occasion of abuse thereof , and to hinder that in taking the signes without any distinction , for the things by them signified , men should attribute to them the effects , which appertaine not but to the things onely which they signifie . Of these two diuers reasons , & maners of speaking , examples there are , as well in the scriptures , as in the auncient Fathers . Of the first , we haue an example in Circumcision , when it is called by figure a Couenant . Gen. 17. 13. And of the second , is there likewise an example in the 11. verse of the same Chapter : where Circumcision is properly called a signe of the Couenant . Another example there is , of the first maner of speaking which is figuratiue , in Exodus 12. 11. where the Lambe is called the Passeo-uer of the Lord . And of th● second maner of speaking which is proper , the example i● in the same Chapter & 3. verse , where the blood of the lambe is named a signe . In like manner and sort , when in the scripture mention is made of the Supper , sometimes is it there spoken of bread by figure . As when it is called the bodie of Iesus Christ : or the Communion of the bodie , as before hath bene sayd : and sometimes is it also taken properly , as 1. Cor. 11. when it sayd : Whosoeuer shall eate of this bread . Also , Let euery man then prooue himselfe , and so eate of this bread . The like diuersitie in two manners of speaking , is oftentimes founde among the auncient Fathers , in the matter of the Supper : For sometimes they speake of bread by figure , calling it the bodie of Iesus Christ . As Saint Ciprian , when

Sermon : de Caen● dom.

Epist. ad Rustic . Hom. 6. ad pop. Antioch .

Hom. 45. in Iohn . Hom. 27. in 1. Cor. Hom. de Encaenijs . 5 Hom. 26.

hee saith : that the bodie of the Lorde is taken with filthie hands , and his blood drunke with a prophane and polluted mouth . And when hee saith elsewhere that we sucke his blood , and fasten our tongues in the woundes of our Redeemer . And S. Ierome , when he saith : that Euxuperius Bishop of Tholoze , bare the bodie of our Lord in a little Oziar Pannyer , and his blood in a Glasse . Saint Chrisostome also , when he writeth : that Iesus Christ doth not only suffer himselfe to be seene , but also to be touched and eaten : and that the toothe be fastened in his fleshe , and touched with the tongue . And Saint Augustine : With what care take we heede , when the body of Iesus Christ is administred vnto vs , that nothing thereof fall from our hands to the earth .

All which , with theyr semblable Sentences , are figuratiue : and there is no doubt , but to well and fitly interpret them , they that read them ought to bee taught , that in the same , the name of the thing signified , is applyed to the signes which doo signifie the same : which thing may easily bee gathered out of other sentences , and passages of the said Auncients : where speaking properly of the bread and wine , distributed in the Supper : they call them signes Lib. 4. Cont. Marcion . Lib. 2. Epist. 3. and figures . As Tertullian : Iesus Christ ( saith hee ) tooke bread , gaue it to his Disciples ▪ and made his body : when hee saith : This is my body : that is to say , a figure of my body . And Ciprian : by the wine , is shewed the bloud of Christ . Also in the Sermon which hee made of the Supper of the Lord : As often as we do this , wee whet not the teeth to byte , but wee breake and distribute the holy bread in true faith : By the which wee distinguish the diuine and humane matter . Also in the Sermon hee made de Chrismate ; The Lord hath giuen with his owne hands bread and wine vpon the table , on which hee made his last meale with his Disciples : but vpon the Crosse , hee gaue vnto the souldiers , his body to be wounded , to the ende hee might so much the more deepely imprint the truth in his Disciples : and that they should expound to the people , how the bread and wine were his body and bloud : and how the Sacrament agreeeth with the thing , for the which it was instituted . And also how a Sacrament is made of two things , and therefore is named with two names , and one selfe-same name is giuen to that which signifieth , and to that which is signified . In liturg su● Psa. 3. & cont Adamant . ca. 20. And Saint Basile : Wee propose the figures and patternes of the sacred body and bloud of Iesus Christ . And Saint Augustine : The Lord feared not to say : This is my body : when hee gaue the signe of his body . Also the Lord receiued Iudas to his Supper , wherein hee commended and gaue to his Disciples the figure of his bodie . And Chap. 26. in Math. Saint Ierome : After hee had eaten the Pascall Lambe with his Disciples , he tooke bread , which strengtheneth the heart of man , and passed to the true Sacrament of the Passeouer .

To the ende that as Melchisedecke had done before in his figure , he should also represent there his true body . S. Ambrose : Lib. 4. de sacram . Chap. 5. in Psa. 22. This Sacrament is a figure of the true body and bloud of our Lord Iesus Christ . Chrisostome : He hath prepared this table , to the ende he might shewe vs daily the bread and wine in mysterie and similitude of the bodie and bloud of Christ . And sometimes it happeneth , that one Doctor in this matter expoundeth an other . As one may perceiue it in the conference of two passages : the one of S. Augustine alreadie alledged : and the other of Tertullian , in the booke De Corona militis : where hee saith : Wee very hardly suffer any thing of our bread and wine to fall vpon the ground . And in stead of that which S. Augustine saith to the same purpose , he saith : ( as hath before bene recyted ) we carefully regard , that nothing of the body of our Lord , fall vpon the ground .

Now as in diuers passages the auncient Fathers ( as hath bin declared ) haue vsed the two foresaid maners , speaking of the Supper , now by figure , now simply and properly : so it is sometimes found , that in one selfe-same place these two manners of speaking haue beene vsurped in their writings . As in a Canon of the Councell of Niece , where it is said : It was thus concluded of the table of the Lord , and of the mysterie which is therevpon : that is to say , of the worthy body and bloud of Iesus Christ . At the table of the Lord , we ought not to abide tyed here below to the bread and wine , which bee there proposed : but to lift vp our hearts on high by faith , and meditate , that on this holy table , is proposed vnto vs , the Lambe of God , which taketh vpon him the sinnes of the world ; which is sacrificed of the Priests , and not slaine . And in communicating truly with his precious body and bloud , we ought to beleeue that these things be signes of our resurrection . Whence we may see , how the Fathers in one selfe-same place , haue spoken properly , calling bread and wine , the signes and Elements , which be presented in the Supper : and also by figure , naming the same signes , the Lambe of God , which taketh vppon him the sinnes of the world .

By that which is said , touching the said two manners of speaking , they which read the scripture , and auncient Authors , ought to be admonished , carefully to regard , that for default of well distinguishing the places , where the said speeches are vsurped , they do not confound them : taking that which ought to be vnderstood by figure , as if it were spoken properly : and that which is said properly , as if it were vnderstood by figure . And it behoueth them alwayes to remember in the reading , as well of the scripture , as of the auncient Fathers , what S. Augustine hath written in his booke De doctrina Christiana . We must beware ( saith hee ) that we take not a figuratiue speech , according to the letter : For herevnto must that bee referred which the Apostle saieth : The letter killeth : and the spirit giueth life . So that to vnderstand that which is spoken by figure , as if it were spoken properly , is fleshly wisedome . And in the end of the Chapter he hath one memorable sentence : namely , that it is a miserable bondage of the soule , to take the signes , for the things signified : and not to be able to lift vp the eye of the spirit aboue the corporall creature , to draw eternall life .

To come to the third part of the Supper , which is the spirituall and heauenly thing , represented & proposed there vnto vs , as well in the Elements , as in the whole action : the Ministers say , that it is Iesus Christ crucified , and offered on the Crosse to God his Father , for the whole and perfect expiation , and satisfaction of all the sinnes of the world . And that to make vs enioy the fruite of this sacrifice , and to apply vnto our selues the righteousnesse , forgiuenesse of sinnes , life , the grace of God , and all other fauours and blessings , which by the same sacrifice , haue bene purchased and obtained for vs : the word and Sacraments haue bene left and ordained for vs , chiefly that of the Supper : wherein , as in a picture , we behold Iesus Christ suffering for vs , the paines and sorrowes of death , paying our debts , cancelling and adnulling the hand-writing which was contrarie to vs : bearing vpon him our malediction , to free vs from the same : and by his obedience reconciling vs to God his Father , and appeasing his wrath towards vs . All which things are represented and assured vnto vs in the Supper : when with a true faith we present our selues there , to celebrate the same .

The Supper then was not ordained to be a propitiatorie sacrifice ( as the Doctors do teach , and as they falsly beleeue in the Romane Church ) but to be a Sacrament , to the ende to renue and alwayes conserue the memorie which wee ought constantly to retaine of the death and sacrifice of Iesus Christe . Now , betweene a sacrifice , and a Sacrament , there is great difference . For as much as in a sacrifice , we present our oblations vnto God : and in a Sacrament , God contrariwise offereth and communicateth vnto vs , his graces and gifts . Also in a sacrifice for sinne , there is the death and effusion of the bloud of the Host and sacrifice , and not in a Sacrament : but the onely perception and applycation of the fruite and effects of the sacrifice . In the Supper then , Iesus Christe is not againe sacrificed : but the fruites of his obedience , and merite of his sacrifice are there distributed and receiued by the faithfull .

Of the reasons aforesaid , do the Ministers conclude , that it is blasphemy and sacriledge , to call the bread of the Masse , of a Romish Priest , a wholsome host . And if for proofe therof , they wold alledge the Fathers , in whose writings is found , that they call sometimes the Supper an oblation and sacrifice : The Ministers answere , that first it nought appertaineth to the Masse of the Priests : between which & the Supper , there is no agreement . And afterwards , that what the Fathers haue said , they neuer vnderstood it of the propitiatory sacrifice : by which remission of sinnes is gotten and obtained . And they haue neuer beleeued nor thought , that there was any other sacrifice to appease the wrath of God , and obtaine reconciliation and agreement betweene him and men , then the onely sacrifice of Iesus Christ , made by him alone , one onely time vpon the Crosse . Three things then in briefe , doo the Ministers say : first , that there neither is , nor can be other sacrificer of the new Testament , then Christ Iesus .

The reasons are , because there is none but he , of whom it hath bene said : Thou art a Priest for euer , after the order of Melchisedeck . Also there is none but he , to whom may agree , and be fitly applyed the conditions and essentiall qualities of a sacrificer , and the sacrifice : Which are , that the Priest be holy , innocent , without spot , seperated from sinners , and made higher then the heauens : which needed not to offer daily sacrifices , first for his owne sinnes , and then for the sinnes of the people . Also there is none but he , which is , nor could bee Mediator betweene God and men : which could satisfie the diuine iustice : which is capable to beare and sustaine the wrath of God : which could tame and conquer death : which by his death , and proper bloud , could worke the confirmation of the new Testament : and which ( to bee briefe ) could in fauour and contemplation of his merits and dignitie , obtaine of God remission of sinnes , and the other graces needfull for them which trust in him , and instantly desire him .

Secondly the Ministers say , that there is no other sacrifice for sinne , but that of Iesus Christ : That he is the onely Lambe which beareth the sinnes of the world : that there is nothing but his bloud , whereby our filthinesse is washed : To bee short , that God taketh pleasure in no other sacrifice nor oblation : and that hee requireth no other burnt sacrifice nor offering for sinne . And that therefore Iesus Christe ( as it is written of him in the rolle of the lawe ) is come , to doo and accomplish the will of God his Father .

Thirdly , they say of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ , that it was one onely , and once offered by himselfe : without that it was euer needfull afterwardes to repeate and reiterate the same , considering the perfection and vertue thereof , by which sinne is abolished , and absolute and eternall sanctification obtained to all the elect : as it appeareth in the 9. and 10. of the Hebrewes . By meanes whereof , no lesse blasphemy it is , nor a thing lesse contrarie to the doctrine and meaning of the Apostle , to approue the repetition and reiteration of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ , then the pluralitie of sacrifices for sinne . And if the Doctors would ( as they wontedly haue ) to disguise and colour such an abuse , shewe forth their distinction betweene the propitiatory and applicatory sacrifice , saying ▪ that the Priests pretend not in their Masses to sacrifice Iesus Christ for other end , then to apply the merite of his death to those , for whom they celebrate the same . The Ministers answere , that in so dooing , they should attribute vnto Iesus Christ , more then they do : because all the fruite of his sacrifice commeth vnto vs , by the application thereof . As healing commeth not so much by the confection and preparation of the medicine , as by the application of the same .

Furthermore , the Ministers would willingly demaund of our Maisters , by what meane the benefite of the death of Iesus Christ , was applied to the Fathers before his comming , seeing that as then they did sing no Masses ? Well seeth euerie man of any spirite or iudgement , that such distinctions are friuolous , and onely inuented to obscure the truth , and dazell the eyes of the simple and ignorant . For Iesus Christ who hath offered the sacrifice , is hee himselfe , which applyeth the same vnto vs , by his spirite , his word , and his Sacraments .

To returne then to their former speech , and declare why the Fathers haue called the Supper , and all the action thereof a sacrifice . It behoueth to note , that there are many sorts of sacrifices in the Supper : As the sacrifice of a contrite Ps. 51. heart , offered by publike confession of sinnes which there is made . After the sacrifice of our body , there offered Rom. 12. by publike prayer , which followeth the said confession . Thirdly , the sacrifice of praise there offered , when they sing Psalmes after the confession and prayer . After commeth the preaching of the Gospell , ( which is called a sacrifice , Rom. 15. ) : then the confession and prayers ended , the Minister presenteth himselfe to the people , to preach vnto them the word of God . The Almes ( which Phil. 4. Heb. 13. is an other kinde of sacrifice ) was heretofore brought forth in the Supper by the faithfull : which would therby testifie , not only their remembrance of the graces & benefites of God : but also their loue & desire they had to relieue the necessities of their poore neighbors . Besides all these Sacrifices , there are yet in the Supper two particular sacrifices , wherof mention is made in the writings of the Fathers . The bread and the wine which were chosen and taken of the Almes , brought thither for the poore , and were consecrated : that is to say , deputed and appointed to the holy and sacred vse of the Supper . The other is the memorie of the death and sacrifice of Iesus Christ , celebrated and repeated in all the action of the Supper . The which , for this reason is called a Chap. 10. Sacrifice by S. Iohn Chrisostome , vpon the Epistle to the Hebrewes , when he saith : We make not euery day other Sacrifice , then that of Iesus Christ . But rather ( saith he correcting himselfe ) we make the memorie of that Sacrifice . S. Ambrose calleth it the memorie of our redemption : To the end , that we remembring our Redeemer , may obtaine of him increase of his graces in vs . S. Augustine yet proposeth it more clearly , vnder a comparison which he bringeth of the dayes of the passion , and resurrection of Iesus Christ : which he thus Epist 23. applieth : when the Feast of Easter approacheth , we vse oft times this maner of speech : To morrow , or within two daies , we haue the passion or resurrection of Iesus Christ . That cannot properly be vnderstood of the day wherein Iesus Christ suffered death ( which is long since passed ) : but onely of the memorie of his death , which is solempnized and celebrated , as this day , euery yeare . A little after , to appropriate his comparison , he addeth : Iesus Christ , hath not he bene one only time offered in himselfe ? And neuerthelesse in the Sacrament of the Supper , not only on Easter day , but euery day also , is hee offered to the people . Also elsewhere : Contra Faust lib. 20. cap. 21. The flesh and blood of this Sacrifice , were before the comming of Iesus Christ , promised by the figures of Sacrifices . In the passion of Iesus Christ , they were giuen and offered in trueth : And after the Ascention of Iesus Christ into Heauen , they are celebrated by the Sacrament of remembrance . Of these and many other like passages , one may deduct , that the Fathers haue often called the Supper a Sacrifice : by reason that in the same , the memory of the Sacrifice of Iesus Christ is renued and celebrated .

The name of Sacrifice , is by the Auncients often also applied to the Almes , which the faithfull brought forth in the Supper . As by Iustin Martyr in the second Apologie : by S. Augustin in the 20. chap. of the 20. book Cotra Faust : by S. Ciprian in the booke de Elimosina : by S. Iohn Chrysostome , Hom. 46. vpon S. Mathew . Which thing may also be verified by the Canon of the Masse it selfe , where it is said : We offer to thy maiestie part of thy gifts & benefits : which ought to be referred to the Almes of the faithfull , which the Minister in the name of the whole Church offered to God . They haue sometimes also called the praiers there made , Sacrifices . As S. Ciprian vpon the Lords Prayer . And Eusebius in the 7. of the Ecclesiasticall History . Tertullian in the 3. booke against Marcion : where , alledging that written in Malachy , [ of the cleane offering ] , which ought to be made vnto God , from the rysing of the Sunne , to the going downe of the same , saith : that ought to be vnderstood of the Hymnes and praises of God . Which S. Ierome ( expounding the passage aforesaid ) doth also confirme .

For conclusion of this matter , the Ministers say : that all the passages of the bookes of the Fathers : wherin mention is made of Sacrifice , in the speech of the Supper , ought to be referred to one of these kinds aforesaid . And that it shal neuer be found , that they haue said or written , or yet euer haue thought , that there was any other sacrifice * *

Iesus Christ the onely sacrifice propiciatory of the new Testament .

The Sacrament improperly termed a Sacrifice ; ●y reason of the concurrence of these 5. Christian Sacrifices therin : namely : Contrit●ō , Mortification , Praises , Almes & celebration of the memory of Christ . Euery member of Christs Church a Priest .

propiciatory , then that alone , which Iesus Christ in his owne body once offered vpon the Crosse for our redemption . And that by means therof , it is certain , that in the Christian church , he ought to be acknowledged , the priest of the new Testament . And as touching the other sacrifices , namely : of a Contrite heart : of the Mortification of the fleshe : of Praises and Almes : and of the shewing forth , and memorie of the death of Iesus Christ : they say , that it generally belongeth to all the Church to offer them : And that there is no faithfull , nor any member in the whole bodie of the Church , which in this respect , is not a Priest . As saith S. Peter in the 2. Chapter of his first Epistle . And S. Iohn in the first Chapter of the Apocalips . And that we ought for this cause , to offer in the Supper such Sacrifices vnto God : As appeareth by the same Cannon of theyr Masse , by them euilly vnderstood , and applied to the Sacrifice , which they pretend to make of the body & blood of Iesus Christ ; where it is said : For the which , we offer vnto thee : or who offer vnto thee , &c.

Our saying of the Sacrifice , that it is common to all the Church , to offer vnto God , Sacrifice of praise : ought not to be slaunderously interpreted : as if we would confound the Ecclesiasticall Ministery , with the sayd Priesthood ; and by that meanes , ouerthrow and disturbe the order of the Church : attributing to each one , authoritie and power to gouerne the same . For we know well , that the callings be different among the people of God : And that it is needfull , there be in the Church , Pastors , and Doctors , and other Ministers ( as Deacons and Elders ) to well guide and edifie the same : as well by the daily preaching of the word , as by the carefull and diligent execution of other things which concerne their charges . But it behooueth notwithstanding , to distinguish such callings which be particular , from the Priesthood aforesaid : which ought to be generall , and common ( as is said ) to the whole Church .

It shall now be easie for all them , which will diligently obserue the things here before discouered , and shewed The Masse is a corruption and ruine of Christs institution in his Supper . forth by the word of God , to vnderstand and iudge , that the Masse , such as is now celebrated in the Romane Church , is a whole corruption and ouerthrowing of the institution of the Supper , which Iesus Christ made , and left in his Church . So that it should be now impossible to acknowledge therein , one onely trace or marke of it first ordinance . For of a Sacrament which Iesus Christ left in his The ende of Christs institution in the Sacrament , abolished by the Masse . Church , to edifie and entertaine the same in a present memorie of his death , haue they made a sacrifice ; whereby the remembrance of that of Iesus Christ , hath bin wholly buried and interred . And herein is there a maruellous thing , and worthy to be well marked . That is to say , that that which appertaineth not but to the sonne of God The Priest in the Masse most impiously vsurpeth the proper offices of Christ himselfe . onely , and was impossible for any other but him to do : as to sacrifice for sin , to reconcile men vnto God , to appease his wrath towards them , and to make intercession , to obtaine for them his fauour and aide ; the Priests do attribute to themselues . And that which to them was lawfull , and commaunded , and also possible and easie to do : that is to say , to solemnize the memorie of Iesus Christ , & in taking and breaking , distributing and eating of the bread , and drinking the wine , to shewe forth his death : they haue wholly cast aside . So that one may say , that the Priests do What Christ in celebration of his Supper hath commanded , that the Popish Priests in their Masse neglect : and what Christ hath not commaunded , and is impossible for any but himself to do , dare they attempt to do . nothing of all that which Iesus Christ did , and commaunded to be done in the Supper . And that which he did vpon the Crosse , and that he neuer commaunded man to do , the Priests dare enterprise , and will do the same .

The errors and abuse , as well of Transubstantiation , as of the Priesthood , and expiatorie sacrifice , and of the repetition , of the same , which be the principall parts , and as it were the foundations of the Masse , haue bene heretofore confuted , and sufficiently conuinced by the word of God : and by the reasons which haue bene alledged in the declaration of the parts of the Supper . And nothing more remaineth to cast downe this Idoll , but to shewe , that that which is in the Masse , ( besides the abuses aforesaid ) is not better , nor better founded vpon the word of God . For the adoration which there is made of the bread and wine , is an Idolatrie , condemned and accursed of God . And it is not like , that Iesus Christ ( instituting the Supper ) would not haue ordained it , that S. Paul ( recyting this institution , as he had receiued it of the Lord ) would not haue taught it : and that the auncient Church would haue omitted the same , had it bene a thing wherein God had bene any way honoured .

Afterward , the seperation of the Priest from the people , is directly contrary to the Article of the faith , of the Communion of the Church : and to the ende , for which the Supper was ordained , which is to confirme and entertaine due societie among the faithfull , and to binde them alwayes more straightly one to an other . And none can say , but that it is an intollerable presumption , and a manifest contempt and disdaine of the residue of Gods people . And a plaine mockery is that which the Doctos alledge to excuse and couer such a sacriledge : to wit , that the Masse of the Priests ceaseth not to bee good , when those that are there present will not comunicate . For first it is forbidden them to eate alone in the Supper . And a Supper it is not , where there is not a Communion : as Saint Paul teacheth , reproouing the Corinthians , because they departed one from an other in 1. Cor. 11. 20. 21. the celebration of their Supper . When ( sayth he ) yee come together therefore into one place , this is not to eate the Supper of the Lord : For euery man , when they should eate , taketh his owne supper afore . And teaching in the ende of the Chapter , the forme which they ought to hold , hee sayth vnto them : Wherefore my bretheren , when yee come together to eate , tarry one for another . Furthermore , oft times it happeneth , that there are not in their Masse , but the Priest and the little Clarke , which answereth him : whom they will not receiue to communicate with them . Also , how can they excuse the Masses which are sung in Monasteries : where the people are forbidden to communicate with the Monkes , which celebrate the same ▪ Moreouer , it is ordinarily seene in great Parishes of this Cittie of Paris , and else-where , euen vppon the dayes that the people Communicate ; that they are seperated from the Priests , who do their businesse apart , and wil not vouchsafe to feed & communicate with them vpon one table . Also , what communion is there betweene the Priests and the people , seeing that in stead of breaking in the assembly , one selfe-same bread , ( to the end that all the partakers thereof , should bee by that meane conioyned and more straightly closed in one body ) each one hath his owne particular : the Priest , one more great , and the people , one lesse ? Seeing also that the Cup is not any way distributed to them ? Furthermore , what dutie do the Priests , to inuite and exhort the people , to communicate with them ? yea the Bishops themselues ? who would at this day repute it great shame to communicate with crafts-men , and other inferior people .

To conclude , had the Doctors well noted the custome of the Fathers , which caused the Cathecumenians , & others there ( not prepared to communicate ) to depart the place where the Communion was celebrated : and that likewise which S. Iohn Chrisostome saith thereof : they would shame to defend such an abuse & impietie , as is that of their Masse . And that the people may not bee ignorant of that , which these In Epist. ad Ephes. Serm. 3. holy Doctors therof saith , we will translate the same , word for word . It is in vaine that the daily sacrifice is made : It is in vaine that we abide at the Aultar ; there is no person which there communicateth . I say not this to the end that yee communicate in any sort soeuer ; but that ye yeeld your selues worthy thereof : Art thou not worthy to communicate ? so art thou not worthy to pray . Also a litle after : If some one were called to a banquet , should wash his hands , and sitting at the table , should not eate , nor taste ought of the meates which should there be serued : should he not dishonour and wrong him that inuited him ? had it not bin better he had not come there ? Euen so it is with thee . Thou art come , thou hast sung the Psalme with the rest of the people : thou hast confessed that thou wast of the number of the worthy , in not departing with them which are vnworthy . How then abidest thou , and doost not perticipate of the table of the Lord ? Thou sayest I am vnworthy . I answere thee , that thou art so : whereby also vnworthy of the Communion of prayers .

Thirdly the gobbets and offalls of Gospels and Epistles , the Symbole , praier , & other peeces of the scripture , brought all confused , and not hanging together , said and proposed to the people in an vnknowne language ( against the expresse commaundement of God , and without any edification of the congregation ) is no other thing , then a vaine vsurpation of the name of God , against the expresse prohibition which he hath made thereof . And such robes are too straight and short , to couer the shame and filthinesse of the Masse .

Fourthly , what an execrable abuse is it to say , that the Masse serueth to obtaine remission of sinnes ; not onely for the quicke , but also for the dead ? And that the Priests ( passing yet further , not to forget , or leaue any blasphemy behind ) do diuide their hoste into three parts : faigning one part to be for them in heauen : an other for them which are on earth : and the third for them in Purgatorie . For the Sacrament which is not ordained but for confirmation of the faith of the word : extendeth not further then the Ministerie , nor the Ministerie further then this life . As then it is so , that they which are in heauen , and they likewise whom they faine to be in Purgatorie , are dead and departed from An excellent note to proue the Masse a shifting forgery this world : we must necessarily conclude , that as the word cannot be preached to them , so also the Sacraments cannot be administred to them . And if they be not administred to them , that they can profit them nothing .

The end of the Resolution .

Answeres to the last obiections proposed by the Doctors , touching the Supper .

THe Ministers say , that many things there are in the said obiections , impertinent to the matter in question : as that they demaund , how long the doctrine abode in it puritie , touching the Supper , and the other articles of Religion . Wherevnto they answere , that from the time of the Apostles themselues , there were heretikes and Antichrists : as Ebion , Cerinthus , Simon Magus , the Samaritanes , and others : who by their errors ▪ and heresies , went then about to peruert the Aposto lique Churches , and corrupt the pure doctrine which was therein . Wherevntothe Apostles , by all possible wayes , did manfully oppose themselues : reuoking and euer reducing all things to their first institution , and foundation of the pure word of God : as we see , did S. Paul towards the C●rinthians , and Galathians : whose Churches , although he had well planted and watered , were neuerthelesse corrupred in his life time , as well in manners , as in doctrine . And to that which the Doctors demaund , how long after the decease of the Apostles , continued the puritie of the doctrine and Religion in the Church of God , as well in the Article of the Supper , as in others : the Ministers answere , that so long time it there continued , as the word of God was followed and preached .

To that which the Doctors say afterwards , ( traducing the Supper celebrated in the reformed Church ) that the Ministers abuse those that are there present , nought else giuing them , but nothing betweene two dishes : the Ministers answere : that this blason much better fitteth the Doctors , then them , because they present not to them whom they haue summoned to their Masses , but accidents of indiuisible waues , and the sight onely of the formes of bread and wine to feed them withall .

A litle after do they call their sacrifice of the Masse most precious : whervpon the Ministers grant that they haue reason so to exault it : & to attribute thervnto , so precious and magnificall a tytle , for the great reuenewes and riches , which this precious sacrifice hath brought vnto them : wherof may well be said , that it hath bene vnto them a fleece , and golden Myne , more abundant then euer was that of Iason ; or all the Mynes of the East . In as much as they haue made the world beleeue ( and chiefly the founders of Abbayes , Priories , and other benifices ) that their sacrifices , were vaileable to them for the redemption , remedie , and health of theyr soules . Afterwards , without all shame do the Doctors call the Supper of the Lord detestable , because there is nought therein offred ( say they ) but common bread & wine . Whervnto the Ministers answere , that in their Supper is truly presented bread and wine to the people ; which after consecration , abide in their substance , as before : but they denie that therfore the said bread and wine be common : by reason ( as heretofore hath bene amply declared to the Doctors ) that by the preaching of the Gospell , and recytall of the ordinance of God , both the one and the other is changed ( as is said ) touching the vse , but not touching the nature .

To that wherein the Doctors do charge the Ministers , to make insurrections , conuenticles , coniurations , conspiracies , and secret practises against the state of their Prince , vnder colour & pretext of their Supper ; the Ministers answer , that the same was not to impugne their doctrine , but rather shamelesly to despight and slaunder them . And that the fidelitie of those of the reformed religion , hath bene knowne and proued , to the expense of their bloud , and losse of their liues . So that the King and his Councell , by his Edict , hath declared them to haue bene very faithfull and well affected subiects to his Maiestie . And wee must not maruell if the Doctors thus slaunder the reformed Churches ; for as much as the Christians in all times haue bin accused of like crimes , by the enemies of the truth . As it appeareth by the Apologie of Tertullian , & the booke of S. Augustine , de Ci●itate Dei : by the Tract of Saint Ciprian against Demetrius : and by the booke of Arnobius , which he wrote against the Gentiles .

But the Ministers much maruell , how the Doctors are so ill aduised , to alledge the suppers celebrated in the reformed Churches , to verifie their accusations ; seeing that the same at this day , being throughout publikely done , in the eyes and presence of them that will behold them : there is nothing therein hidden , and whereof each one ( if he will ) may not easily be informed . But this is the zeale and great charitie of my Lords our maisters ( whereof they haue heretofore protested , & that by inuocation of Gods name ) which so transporteth them to slaunder , without shame or shewe , those whose iustice in that matter , shall answere for them before God and men .

Touching that which the Doctors ●●erwards say , that in the Supper of the Ministers , no consecration is made , of the matter of bread & wine , which be there proposed . The Ministers do confesse , that the bread and wine which be truly in their Supper , are not consecrated in sort as the Doctors pretend to consecrate them in their Masse : For so they approue not such a consecration . But yet do they maintaine , that there is in their Supper , consecration of the matters aforesaid , in sort , as they in their articles , and resolution haue heretofore very largely declared .

The Doctors for proofe and confirmation of that aforesaid , do adde , that it belongeth not to all persons indifferently to consecrate the matter of the Sacraments ; but to them onely , which are ordained by the laying on of hands of the Romane Bishops : wherevnto the Ministers for answer , say , that the first point , they confesse : and also ( as else-where they haue said ) that calling is necessarie to such a purpose . But they denie vnto the Doctors notwithstanding , that this calling is the imposition which they pretend : and the Ministers assure themselues , that their calling is more lawful , and better founded , then is that of the Doctors .

Whereas the Doctors propose in the article following ▪ that the Ministers haue not answered them clearly enough to their liking , touching the parts of the Sacrament , and of the word required for the consecration of the matter , which therein is . The Ministers answere , that there is no doubtfulnesse , obscuritie , nor any inuolution in their writings , sauing that which the Doctors will finde therein : the iudgement whereof , the Ministers referre to the vpright readers . And yet they hold it not more straunge that the Doctors finde their writings obscure , then did Saint Paul , that his Gospell was hidden and couert , to them which perished . And in whome the God of this world had blinded the mindes .

To that of the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper , for which the Doctors require of the Ministers , a more large declaration , then that they haue giuen in theyr former answere .

The Ministers say , that they haue the●evnto clearly answered , albeit the Doctor● bee not satisfied with their 〈◊〉 whereat they nothing wonder , knowing well it is not theyr custome to be contented if one yeeld not to them what they demaund , and desire . Which the Ministers haue not determined to do , much lesse to exceed in their answer the limits and bounds of the scripture ▪ be it in this article of the Supper , or in others : but rather to follow , as neare as possibly they can , the phrase and maner of speaking of the same . By means whereof , for full answere , the Ministers acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ , bee it in the Supper , or out of the Supper , sauing that which Iesus Christ himselfe declareth in the sixt Chapter of Saint Iohn . Whosoeuer eateth my flesh , and drinketh my bloud , hath eternall life . Also , He that eateth my flesh , and drinketh my bloud , dwe●leth in me , and I in him . Also : As the liuing Father hath sent me so liue I by the Father ▪ And he that eateth me , euen he shall liue by me .

To the last Article , which is of Concomitance , the Ministers answere , that the demaund of the Doctors was not so hard but that they had well conceiued it . But they dissembled the same , because they would not loose time to speake and write of such dreames . And they well thought that the Doctors were subtill inough , to vnderstand that in their denying Transubstantiation , it was not to pro●e their Concomitance . Now for their satisfaction , they adde , that they will know no more then that which Iesus Christ himselfe hath taught in his word . That is to say , that in the Supper to participate in his flesh crucified , and bloud shead for the remission of sinnes , it behoueth to take and eate the bread , & drinke the wine which be administred , without any way diuiding or seperating the same . Which thing is also forbidden by the Canons , De Consecr. Dist . 2. C. Cum omne Crimen .

Finished on Wednesday the 14. of August , in the yeare aforesaid .

This writing being sent , the Ministers went shortly after towards my Lord of Neuers , to shew vnto him , that they for theyr part , had largely treated of this matter : but they well perceiued , that the Doctors by theyr friuolous and impertinent questions , hitherto sought not , but to passe away the time , without ought doing in the decyding of the Supper , and of the Masse . And albeit they fayned ▪ that such demaunds did serue for a preparatiue to this dispute : yet was it to no other end , but not to enter thereinto at all : and to hold things in suspence , vntill length of time should begin to be troublesome : and by that meane , all should break off . That his lyking might be to make the Doctors vnderstand , that without turning this or that way , they should come to end the difference : refuting that which the Ministers had maintained of the Supper , and supporting that which they had condemned in theyr Masse . Which thing he promised them to do . Of which promise , began the Ministers to hope thence forward for some profitable matter , and seruing to the edification of the Readers , and rooting out of the greatest abuse and error that is in the Romane Church . Neuerthelesse , shortly after was it bruted through the Citie , that Doctor Vigor was fallen into a very daungerous disease , and wherof was no hope he should hast●ly recouer : which made the Ministers feare , that they were frustrate of theyr hope . And yet more did they feare , when they vnderstood , that the Doctor de Sainctes , was the same time departed from Paris , and gone towards Monsieur the Cardinal of Lorraine . For they could not otherwise presume , but that they shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris : not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time . Considering ▪ they were not there but by accident : to wit , that de Spina was come thither , to passe further , and make a voyage into Aniou and the other , who was Minister of the Church of Orleance , was lately come forth of prison , where he had beene brought , in the Moneth of Iune next precedent , vpon a false accusation , suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church , which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke , written against the obedience , due to Kings and Princes . Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to so●ourn● so long a time , in a Citie , whither hee came against his lyking .

For these causes , they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers , to shew vnto him , the things aforesaid : and tell him , that De Sainctes ( who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor ) was departed thence , without making it knowne when his returne would be : that it was not reason , they should stay there , being incertaine of that which they had to doo : and considering that their Churches had need of them , to execute therin their charges : and that they desired the same . Notwithstanding , in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience , and to abide there , vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris : as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Co●lomiers . For seeing the Doctors were then absent , ( the Lord of Neuers being departed ) the Ministers could doo nothing : not hauing whom to write vnto , nor with whom to conferre .

These remonstances being liked by the said Lord , hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing , signed , Lodouico de Gonzague : and below , Varin : Secretarie . Dated 26. of August : wherein were declared the occasions , here before touched , and remonstrance of the Ministers ▪ with promise made by the said Lord , to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make , to be brought vnto them . And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci , S. George , who was charged with this businesse . Also , the Ministers promised to be readie , were it to returne to Paris : or else to answere from the place where they should be , as often as the Doctors should write .

These things thus done and passed , the Ministers returned presently after ; supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors . But they haue attended , and yet do attend , without that there hath bene any appearance thereof . And they vnderstood nothing of that matter , sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris . In the tytles whereof , some found meane to enterlace the word [ Conference ] , to make shewe vnto the world , that it was something , touching the former disputations . And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers . So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing . For contentation of whom , we haue thought meet , to bring to light what was done concerning the same : reseruing to another time , to publish what the Doctors ( when they shall do it ) shall write against it : and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere , if they can recouer the same .

In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained . And to pray the Father of lights , to shead more & more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church , to the true vnderstanding of his holy word : for the restauration , and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne , our Lord . So be it , the 8. of Nouember , 1566.

FINIS .