The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe

PETRVS VIRETVS . oval portrait of Pierre (or Peter) Viret in a decorated rectangular frame

THE Christian disputations , BY MASTER PETER VIRET .

Deuided into three partes , Dialogue wise : Set out with such grace , that it cannot be , but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff .

Translated out of French into English , by Iohn Brooke of Ashe .

Math. vij . d. 21.

Not euery one that saith vnto me Lorde , Lorde , shall enter into the kingdome of Heauen : but he that doth my fathers will which is in heauen .

MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR Ē VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206)

¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East . 1579.

To the most Reuerent Father in God EDMVND by the permission of God Archbishop of Caunterbury , Primate and Metrapolitan of England : Iohn Brooke wisheth in this life prosperitie , and eternall felicitie in Christ our Sauiour .

REading for mine owne priuate exercise and studies , the worthie worke of Master Peter Viret , entituled , The Christian disputations ( right Reuerent Father ) the sweete entrie into the same , with such pleasant allurementes of comfortable matter , so drewe and tolled me forwade , as vnnethes I coulde cease , vntill I had cleane discoursed and gone thorowe the whole worke . Which hauing once accomplished , and due consideration therevppon had , according to my slender capacitie , I thought I coulde not bestowe my time in any thing more worthy gratefull acceptaunce , then in publyshing and setting foorth the same , that others might bee made pertakers of my comfortable delights , and delightfull comforts taken in reading hereoff . Not meaning like a chorle , alone to deuoure such a rich banket , furnished with so greate a number of Iunkets and delicate dishes , but to inuite thervnto ( according to the intent of mine Author , a company worthy such a feast , which being first prepared and dressed very cunningly after the French fashion , I haue , for the great good will and zeale ●owe vnto my natiue Countrie , and for their better taste , translated and set foorth the same , after the English manner : wherein my small vnlearned skill desirous of sure supportacion and good defence , craueth your grace as chiefe to giue me credite and countenaunce , against the byting sting of Zoilous persons & hereticall Papists , whose stomacks may in no wise digest or abide the good & wholesome dyet in this feast prepared , whose vnsauorie tastes , as I seeke not to content , so I feare not to offende . Trusting your grace will accept this my bolde enterprise as proceeding of heartie good will towards you , and earnest loue borne vnto my countrie , preferring my zealous intent , and the Godlinesse of the matter vnto the vnworthinesse and slender skill shewed in the translation . As I shall dayly pray vnto Almightie God , to gouerne and direct your grace , in all your affaires , by his holy spirite , remayning euer .

Your graces bounden during life : Iohn Brooke .

Iohn Caluyn vnto the Readers .

THE loue of God our Father , and the grace of our Lorde Iesus Christ , be giuen to you , and multiplyed from day to day , thorowe the communion of the holy Ghost . There is an auncient Poet which saith , that he which delyteth and profiteth altogether in his writings , hath gained the price and fauour towardes all men . The same is spoken bicause of the diuersitie of natures . It is very true , that the onely doctrine , wherein we knowe it to be good and profitable , ought to suffice vs , for to incitate and prouoke vs to reade willingly a booke , to giue and bestowe thereon all our studie , to loue and set by it , and finally to take pleasure in it . But there are a great many , and well neere the most parte , which will be a greate deale better pleased , that one should teach than after a gentle & pleasant fashion , then otherwise : In such sort , that as in recreating themselues , they may profite & receiue instruction , liuen then as those which occupie themselues to make bookes of pastime , vaine and friuolous , & which cause the world to reade them , are to bee vituperated and despised although they haue no corruption in them : So on the other side , those which haue the grace , so to teach that they doe both delight and profite the Readers thorowe their pleasant stile , are double to be praysed . And in very deede that is a vertue & a gift which is not in al men . Yea , often times the wisest cannot atteine vnto it . And which is more do make themselues to be laughed at in desning that which is not giuen vnto them . For a man which desireth to vse mery conceits and iests , ought to beware of two vices . The one is , that he do nothing of compulsion , or laugh ouer much , as there are a great many which haue cold laughters , the which do seeme as though they were pulled out of their throat by force . The other is , not to vse baudy & filthy talk , the which is called in Latine scurrilitas , in our language pleasant iestes .

But to keepe the meane , that is to know how to speak effectually and with a good grace , so for to recreate that there be nothing spoken foolishly , at all aduentures , or vncomely , which is no common vertue . I doe speake this by reason of these present Dialogues , out of which a man may so gather good instruction , and yet notwithstanding he shall haue occasion to laugh . For the matter of it selfe is very pleasant : And is set out with such grace , that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff . Our brother and companion in the worke of the Lord Iesus , Peter Viret , who is the Author , hath by nature the vertue which I saide to be requisite in that man which will medle himselfe therein . It is vertue true that as in all other workes he giueth himselfe , vnto a better studie and of greater waight : So in these Dialogues his principall intent is not to delight the eares . And in verie deede , that shoulde be but a small labour , and a paine euill be stowed of a man of such witte and knowledge . Furthermore , besides the giftes that he hath of God , he is called vnto a more higher calling . But forasmuch as the matter that he hath taken in hand to entreate off , sheweth that he teacheth by order of pastime and merrie iestes , he pretendeth notwithstanding the right doctrine , as the true marke to shoote at , mingling with the same , some merrie conceites as a companion therewith all . Yea in such sort that this booke is a suffient witnes , that be hath a singuler dextentie to doe it , yea euen as much as he will himselfe : that is to say , as much as is needefull or conuenient . I doe knowe that it is a daungerous thing and that no man ought at the first sight to allowe a booke .

But I feare not to haue any rebuke of good men , & of such as are of sounde Iudgement , to haue commended the reading of that booke , as a booke in which the time shal be wel bestowed . I neede not to bring witnes , nor to speake among those which know the man , This onely knowledge will suffice for to as●ure them that they cannot say●e to stay themselues vpon it . But bicause that it may bee that some for want of aduertisement , will make none accompt , to proue what it is : I haue partly testified what it is , for to giue encouragement vnto those which wil beleeue me , & to stir them forwarde to see them , vntill such time as they may Iudge of themselues . Not that I doe presume so much as to attribute vnto my selfe the Iudgement aboue the workes of others , for to pronounce them as for authoritie : or to bring all the Readers vnto mine opinion or aduise . Yet neuerthelesse bicause that I thinke and am altogether perswaded , that many will not refuse to staye and content themselues to that , that I affirme vnto them : I am constrayned for the profite of them to speake my minde . Although it is not now needeful to set foorth at large all the profite that may be gathered , and the pleasure that may bee taken therein . This onely I can certifie , that all those which shall haue the patience to continewe the reading ouer it , will not repent themselues to be so well occupied .

There is one onely point , which I knowe , which might diminish the grace of the booke towards some men : That is , that it shoulde seeme good that the matters of the Christia●tie ought to be intreated off with a grauitie correspondent to their dignitie and worthinesse .

And therefore it is not meete to mingle them with matters of myrth , considering that there is daunger , that in so doing wee shoulde turne them into laughing . Chiefely at this present time , in whiche impyetie ouerfloweth more then euer sithence the beginning of the Christian Church : Or at the least wise , it is more openly vncouered . To the ende that none for being preuented with that reason , bee not out of tast with the reading . It is to be noted , that one may dispute of the matters of the Christianitie two wayes : First in rebuking the foolish supersticions , which are risen among the Christians vnder colour of Religion , the which notwithstanding are not but corruptions of the same , for to destroy and ouerthrowe it . Secondly , in declaring the simple and pure veritie according as it is reuealed vnto vs of GOD by his holy worde . As touching the seconde kinde , it is most certeine that assoone as wee haue opened our mouthes for to speake of GOD , no merrie conceite or iest ought to enter in our matter : But wee ought in all that we say and speake , declare what reuerence we doe beare vnto his Maiestie , not pronouncing one worde but in feare and humilytie . But in disiphering and disclosing the superstitions & follyes with which the poore worlde hath beene blinded in before time , he could not chose in speaking of matters so ridiculous but to laugh with open mouth . It is most true that there is also good occasion to weepe and lament : Forasmuch as it is not a sport or iest that the glory of GOD , and his eternall veritie , hauing beene so darkened , the which ought to bee had in vs in a singuler recommendation , hath beene so abolished thorow infinit lyes : that so many poore soules haue beene ledde of Sathan into ruyne and dampnation .

But the one must not let the other , that 〈◊〉 and taking such sorrowe as we ought to haue , to bring vs againe in remembrance , how God hath beene so blasphemed : hauing also pitie and compassion of the calamitie wherein the worlde hath beene so long time , and is yet at this present . Yet neuertheles in rehersing of such foolish dreames and fonde bables , we vse such mocketies as they doe merite and deserue . When we doe so , it shal be after the example of the Prophets : who interpreting of the pure veritie of God , doe speake with a maiestie , which ought to make all the worlde to tremble : But in blaming the dreams of the Idolaters do make it no doubt to vse scoffings and laughings , for to declare howe ridiculous they are . Although the Prophets are one & we an other . For asmuch as we speake not in the name of God as they , to the end that all that which we pronounce shoulde be receiued as a reuelation come from Heauen : It is lawefull for vs to vse a baser stile . But I haue alleaged this comparison onely for to declare , that it is not to giue any occasion vnto the Luci anists and Epicures and other contemners of God , to speake euill of the Christian religion , or to haue it in disdaine , when they shal mocke of the corruptions of the same .

Thomas Singleton to the Reader . OVR Author ( gentle Reader ) here , of franke and free good heart : A Chest of treasures hath vnlockt , whereoff thou maist take part . With trauaile great he hath it brought , from farre and forraine soyle : Which thou , and many may enioye , at home with easie toyle . Stand backe , hard harted Heriticke , here is for thee no ware : Eake stubborne Papist , go thou by , thou hast herein no share . Whom blinde erronious fancies leade , the truth that thou despise : Whom wilfull and grose ignorance , hath closed vp thine eyes . These rich and precious Ornaments , and Iewels high of price : For Godly , Zealous , Vertuous , beene , that hate both sinne and vice . A milde and gentle friendly Brooke , hath brought the same to shore , Then ( Reader ) take it thankefully , he craues of thee no more . FINIS .

¶ The Preface .

IT is sayd in a common prouerbe : he which hath suffered nothing , knoweth not what euill A prouerbe . is . And therefore it is very hard , that he which neuer hath suffered any euill , can haue such pittie and compassion of the captiues and miserable , as he which hath tryed and proued great miseries and néede , and which hath bene exercised in them , and hath abidden many aduersities and troubles . For he that knoweth not what pouertie is , doth not much thincke vppon the necessities of the poore , nor he cannot so well know in what languer and misery they doe lyue . When the ryche man hath hys féete well shodde , and that hée is well cladded and pompeously apparelled , he sitteth at the table , he hath of delicate meate great aboundaunce , amongest which he banketeth and maketh greate cheere , he thincketh not much vpon Lazarus , who lyeth at his gate full of botches and sores , naked , Luc. 16. l. 20. and hauing no nourishment . He doth not greatly passe whether he be shodde or vnshodde , naked or cladde , whether he be colde or warme , whether he haue meate & drinke or not . Sith that he is at his ease , all others are so , and he careth not for them . Wherefore I doubt not but that the Lorde will s●nde many aduersities and afflictions vnto his seruaunts in this world , and that he will trye them The cause of the temptation to the elect . so many wayes , that euery day we shall feele and proue them , to that ende , that they hauing proued in themselues the poorenesse and miseryes that others maye suffer , they doe learne the better howe to beare it , and to haue more greater pittie and compassion , and to bee the readyer to ayde and succour them . And without séeking to farre the examples of the Patriarkes and Prophets : As Abraham Isaac , Iacob , Ioseph , Moses , Dauid , and other lyke , whiche haue bene tryed wyth so many tribulations . Let vs onely consider how the Lorde Iesus Christ woulde make his two Apostles , Sainct Peter and Sainct Paule to humble themselues before that he dyd committe hys Church vnto them , and after that , they had the charge giuen them . Hée Heb. 4. d. 15. whiche was in all pointes tempted , like as wée are : but yet wythout sinne , to the ende that wée shoulde not doubt , but that hée knoweth our infirmities , and that hée can haue compassion of them , hath suffered Peter to fall , that The fall of Peter . Mat. 26. g. 25. Luc 22. l. 60 by his fall , hée may learne to knowe himselfe , and the nature of all other poore sinners inuironed with mannes infirmitie , for to comfort and confirme them , after that hée shall arise agayne . Also hée suffered Saul to erre a longe The errour of Saul . Act. 7. 8. 9 time , before hée called him to the light of the Gospell , & to bring him in that right way , to the ende that after that he should departe from the darke clowdes of ignoraunce , shoulde haue more greater pittie and compassion of the poore blinde and ignoraunt , and that hée shoulde not dispaire incontinent of the health and saluation of the rebells and persecutors . Also we cannot denie , that there is any man liuing vpon the earth , but that hée hath bene plunged ouer The darknesse of the world . Exo. 10. l. 22. the head in the darkenesse of errour and ignoraunce , the which were more thicker vppon all the lande , then euer they were in Aegypt . And woulde to GOD , that those which are yet couered in Aegypt , may at the least wise feele and perceiue as the Aegyptians dyd theirs , and that they would desire with such affection to be deliuered . But this is the mischiefe that the Aegyptians which are at this present time cannot acknowledge what they are , The Aegyptians at this present time . but woulde be taken and accompted for the true Israelites . And notwithstanding that they haue the darkenesse palpable amonge them , yet they glory and bragge themselues of the light , and doe promise it vnto others , by the which they shall haue néede to hée illuminated themselues . Wherfore so much the more ought we to haue that greater compassion on them , as they haue the lesse knowledge of the euil & daunger wherein they are . Those then vnto whome the Lorde hath opened their eyes , and that he hath brought them from the ●enebrous Aegypt , all true Israelites which are in the land of Gosan , béeinge seperated from those horrible darkenesse , ought to trauayle wyth Moses that good seruaunt of God , not onely to drawe the Israelites out of the lande of Aegypt , but also if it be possible to conuert the Aegyptians into Israelits , praying the LORD to driue awaye all darkenesse , by the light of his woorde , and the cléerenesse of his comming . For if we will not lye agaynst our owne conscience , who can denye but that all the worlde is a very Aegypt , and all the Christianitie a very Babilon , full of all confusion ? For hée that will well ponder and Aegypt and Babilon . marke the language that the Christians doe speake , & the diuersities of opinions which are amonge them , but that he shall be constrained to say , that Babilon is not Babilon , in comparison of this . The one saith white , the other bcack . That which the one calleth day , one other calleth it night . That which is the light vnto the one , is darkenesse to the other . That which the one findeth swéete , the other iudgeeth it sowre . That which is Iesus Christ , truth , and Paradise to the one , is Antechrist , lyinge and hell to the other . What is then to be done in this great varietie and contrarietie of opinions ? What ought the poore ignoraunt people thinck of it ? In what trouble and perplexitie ought their poore consciences to be in , when they sée the one to denie that which an other affirmeth ? What opinion ought they rather follow ? and of what side can their poore consciences finde most rest ? It is most certeine , that there is but one veritie , & that in such varietie and contrarietie of opinions and One onely veritie . sentences , there cannot be but one true , and it may well hée that they are all false , if man followe any other guide , then Gods onely veritie . What then is he that is of so sure a iudgement , which can surely iudge what is the best , the most certayntest and infallible veritie ? There is none which can better iudge of the Arte , then the woorkeman : of a matter , then he which hath some knowledge and experience . If we will then finde any rest in our consciences , and obteyne and get a good iudgement , for to discerne in that diuersitie of doctrine , what is the best and moste certeintest , and what is the truth that declareth all the other The meanes for to finde out the truth . to be lyinges , we must gyue our selues to the meanes by which we may atteine therevnto . But it is harde to finde , for it must be searched for out of all creatures , and yet neuerthelesse by the creatures . And therefore forasmuch as the thing séemeth to be harde , and that I sée many poore consciences very much troubled and almoste in dispaire , not knowing on which side to tourne themselues , so much is the thinge more worthy of pittie and compassion . And for bicause that I my selfe haue bene longe ynough sicke in that same bedde , and haue experimented and proued howe daungerous that euilt is , and what dolour and torment it bringeth vnto the man that feareth God , and which is afraide to offend hym , for that cause am I the more moued to ayde and succour those which are yet holden fast in the same , and which cannot in the ende finde remedy . Not that I dare of 〈◊〉 selfe to promise any great thing , sith that I am nothinge● but forasmuch as the common prouerbe gyueth vnto Prouerbe . The foole counsaileth the wise me boldenesse , which sayth : The foole co●●sayleth the wyse . To promise remedy vnto a disease so harde and incurable , I dare not of my selfe , and I will not do as the Sape etiam est holitor valde opportuna locutus . venturous and hardie Emperickes doe , which promyse helpe vnto all diseases , howe incurable so euer they hée : and those which are most ignoraunt , doe moste assure it . But I dare promise to declare , that the disease is not so harde to be cured as it is daungerous , if one prouyde not remedy in time , and wythout delaying the meanes whilest it is possible : And that the difficultnesse that is in it doe not procéede but of vs , whiche haue the remedye in our handes , if we knowe howe to vse it . And although that I nor no man that is in the worlde , cannot , of himselfe remedy it , yet neuerthelesse I trust throughe the helpe and aide of hym which hath it in hys power , and which doth comfort those whome it pleaseth hym , that I wyll declare and shewe vnto those which haue néede , some redresse to atteyne vnto it . For although that I knowe not very much , and haue not séene much , yet neuerthelesse I can not deny but that the Lord , who through his grace and mercy hath drawen mée from those troubles and anguishes , and from darkenesse , vnto the knowledge of the truth , hath also made me prone many thinges , of which I maye helpe my poore bretheren , whome I can not despyse without dooinge vnto them iniurye and wronge , and to shewe that I haue forgotten the estate in which I haue bene , and that I am vnthanckefull towardes Gods liberalitie and goodnesse , who immediatlye from my youth , béeing yet at the schooles , hath drawen me from that labarinth of errour , before that I was to much plunged in that Babilonical Antechrist , and receyued the marke of the beast . Neuerthelesse notwithstanding that it hath pleased God , that that carecter and marke was not printed in my forehead ( to the which yet neuerthelesse A. prepared my selfe , thincking that it was the right waye of saluation , if the Lorde had not had pittie and compassion , on mée , who called mee vnto a better vocation ) yet I cannot therefore denie , but that I haue bene sufficiently plunged and very déepe in that whore of Babilon , aswell as others . Although I haue not bene none of the gouernours and chiefest Eurgesses and Citizens of the same , yet I haue bene of the meaner sort & prepared for to bring foorth the fruites of confusion , as the others dyd , and so much the more that by Nature I was more giuen vnto religion , the which yet neuerthelesse I knewe not , following in steede thereoff all superstition . Wherefore , sithens that the Lord hath taken mée out , I can not yet forget those that are detayned and kept therein . And in remembring and considering the trayne of the newe Babilon , it maketh me so remember a lawe and custome that The lawe of the Babilonians for the diseased , Herodo , It. 1. the auncient Babilonians had , the which is not altogether to be despised nor vnworthy to be remembred . Before that Phisicke was yet brought into any perfect Aite , and that there was not cunninge Phisitions for to practise it , they dyd set downe a lawe , by which they ordeyned , that those which did begin to be sicke and diseased , ought to go vnto those , which sometime haue bene sicke with the same disease , for to haue their aduice & counsaile , and for to learne by them the remedy which they vsed , if they had proued any good , and which were wel to be found . And to the ende that that law should be the better kept , they vsed to bring those that were sicke and diseased vnto the stréets and open places : and those which sometime had bene sicke , were bounde by the lawe to visite them , and to teach vnto euery one of them the remedy by the which they were healed . If then the Babilonians were so carefull of the sicke and diseased : let vs thincke what reproche we shall haue of God , if after that hée hath made vs féele his grace , and hath giuen vnto vs the remedy , not onely against all the diseases both of body and soule , but also against the corporall and spirituall deathe , we haue no pittie and compassion on our bretheren which are yet in the bedde of deathe , and if we doe not showe vnto them the remedye that we haue learned of GOD , and that we doe not bringe them vnto the highe and souereigne Phisition IESUS CHRIST ? His law and commaundement ought more to vrge vs then that of the Babilonians . If he willed and commaunded that he that shall finde the Ore or the Asse of his neighbour going astray , yea of his enemy , to bring them to him againe : or Bxo. 23. 〈◊〉 if he be fallen into a dyke , or sinke vnder his burthen to helpe him out and vp againe , do we thinke that he hath not yet more care of man then of a beast ? of the soule more then of the body . Doth he not giue vs sufficiently to vnderstand by that commaundement , in what recommendacion we ought to haue our neighbours , and what care we ought to take of their soules and health , sith that he bindeth vs by his commaundement to take the care and charge of his Asse ? I then considering the great darkenesse , abuses , and errours , which haue occupyed and filled all the Christianitie , séeing so many scrupulous , doubtfull and troubled consciences , and so many diseases , of which euery stréete , place and all the worlde is full , would not despise them , without teaching them some remedy , for to comfort them , at the least a lyttle , if I cannot doe much , chiefly for that I haue bene required of many good men which doe feare God .

It is very true , that one shall finde men inough , which will promise remedyes for such diseases , but he shall not finde many which haue well proued and tryed that which they teach vnto others . For many men sometime wyll meddle or take vppon them to heale others , which haue more néede of a medicine , then those vnto whome they would giue it , and there are more Phisicions then diseases . And although I will not glorye nor boaste my selfe to be very able and cunning in that matter , yet neuerthelesse I will not hyde that lyttle talent which the LORDE hath giuen vnto mée . I am not ignorant , but that the Lord hath raysed vp in these our dayes , learned men which haue already very well declared and opened those obscure and darke places , of which so many poore consciences are troubled , after whome I am not worthy to carry their bookes , but doe estéeme it a greate benefite of GOD to haue bene their disciple and scholler , and by their meanes to haue vnderstanded GODS truth , although that many bookes haue bene alreadye made and set foorth in our countrey by diuers learned , for to discouer the abuses , and for to put agayne the woorde of GOD in his honour , according as our Sauiour IESUS CHRIST instituted it . Neuerthelesse , I haue yet thought that my lyttle labour shall not be altogether vayne and vnprofitable towards a great many of my bretheren and countrimen , especially towards some , for many causes . First , bicause that the most parte of those which haue written of diuinitie , haue heterto written in the Latine tougue , the whiche is not to be vnderstood Latine bookes . of all men , and especially of the poore ignoraunt people , which haue more néede of playne doctr●e and consolation . Wherefore it is good that such matters which doe touch and conserne our health and saluation be manifested and sette foorth in all languages , to the ende that those which do not vnderstande the one , may be instructed by the other . For it is all one what language one speaketh vnto vs , so that we vnderstand him , and that we may be well instructed in the will of God , and in all things All languages good to God . necessary vnto our saluation . For God regardeth not the languages , but onely the thing to which all languages ought to serue . Then euen as those who doe wryte in a language which is most common to euery Nation , and by which they may instruct and teach , not onely those of their countrey , but also of straunge countreys , are worthy of great prayse : So I doe iudge them worthy to be blamed , and not worthy to be accounted for christian men , to occupy themselues so much to teach the most wisest and best learned , and those which are so farre seperated from vs , and that the poore ignoraunt , and those of the house should hée despised , and should féele nor receiue any fruite . One might rightly rebuke and checke vs : Phisition heale thy selfe : And that we doe not followe the example of Iesus Christ and his Prophetes and Apostles , who haue Luc. 4. d. 23. alwayes taught those with whome they had to doe , in a language that they coulde best vnderstande . For that cause was gyuen vnto the Apostles the gyfte of tongues , for to preach vnto all people and Nations , knowing The gift of tongues . Act 2. 2. 1. that the language ought to serue to the matter , and not the matter to the language . Wherefore considering that some men doe write in Hebrewe , some in Greeke , some in Latin , others in Almayne and in Flemish , others in Italian and Spanish , I haue also written in a language , with which I am best acquainted and haue most familiaritie , French bookes according to my byrth and natiuitie : Although that the matters that I entreate off , shoulde haue a greater grace in the Latin tongue then in the French tongue , and shoulde be vnto me more aduauntage . For oftentimes , I haue the matter ready , that I néede not but to write them out of good Authours , where I néede not to trauaile to translate the thinges in French the whiche is very harde and impossible , especially vnto mée to sette them out wyth such grace , and to interprete them so natiuely as they sound in their naturall language , Hebrewe , Greeke , or Latin. For although I bée a poore Oratour in Latin , I am not much better in French. Wherefore although I doe not speake the language of Attica , nor well beautified & lyke a Retricion , but that it happeneth oftentimes that I doe fall into my rude speache : Or if I wander astraye in Fraunce , and that I come agayne into the countrey , I doe thincke that the fauourable Reader wyll well beare wyth such faultes , and especially in the rymes and French verses , which sometyme I mingle in these Dialogues , following the example of the good Authours , which haue willingly kept this custome , to translate into verse , after their owne language , that whiche they alledge of the Poets , which haue written it in an other language : The which I haue done sometime , bycause that I put in the margentes those Authours , by the which I helpe my selfe , for to discouer and vnhide better the abuses and superstitions , to the ende that some men shoulde not thincke that I speake of the speakers of the Dialogues for the nonce , and wythout iust occasion . If ther be in my verses but little rime , it sufficeth me so that it haue some reason . For I do not make profession of Poetry : & it sufficeth me to tourne them grosly or plainely : Besides that , that I am an euill Oratour , yet I am a worse Poet. Yet neuerthelesse I am fully certified that so many good mindes and wittes as Fraunce bringeth vp very able and experte , both in Poetry and French prose , shall haue none occasion to enuye mée , nor to rebuke or finde faulte with my Poetry . For they may very well iudge that I pretende not by my verses to haue the crowne of Baye , and that I wyll not take from them their Science and name . Also I hope that those vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more gyftes and grace to speake , wyll consider to beare with my rude style , as the Athenians , who were the cummingest in all Greece , both in doctrine and in language , haue not despised the doctrine and language of the Philosopher , Anacharsis , Anacharsis . notwithstandinge that hee was a Sythian and of a barbarous Nation . They must also consider whiche knowe the greatnesse of the countrey wherein I am , I haue sometimes vsed expresly some woordes which shall not bée receyued of those which sludye in the finenesse of the French tongue , but I doe the same , for to condiscend to the rudenesse and capacitie of the most ignoraunt whiche better vnderstande those woordes taken from their language , then others that are more fine and eloquent . Furthermore , although that there are manye good men which haue already written of the matters of Religion in the French tongue wyth more hautye style and more el●quent then I can , and of a more déeper and profounde knowledge . Yet neuerthelesse I doe not thincke , that those whiche knowe that Christian simplicitie and modestie is , wyll neyther despyse my language nor my doctrine , but that they wyll take it all Amos. 7. d. 13. in good parte , consideringe that if Amos whiche was a shepeheard , and many other Prophetes of base condition , haue not vsed so high a style , nor haue spoken so profoundly and learnedly as that kingly Prophet Dauid , or Dauid . Esay . that great Oratour Esay , of the royall linage and brought vp in the court , they haue not therefore leaft off to bée Prophetes and to speake through Gods spirite , and to profite very muche in hys Church , whose style they haue vsed . And althoughe that the Euangelisles and The Apostolicall eloquence and humaine ●loqūence . Apostles haue not written in such pompe of woordes , nor haue not so much trauayled after the language of Demosthenes and Cicero , yet wee cannot denye but that they haue more profited to all mankinde , by theyr ●ude stile , then the others , by all their pompe of humayne eloquence wythout any comparison . But if wée consider Gods woorkes , wée shall knowe that the holye Ghost , althoughe that hée doe not reiect the eloquence , whych is one of his gyftes , yet neuerthelesse hée delighteth himselfe more in the simplicitie of language , for to declare better hys vertue and efficacie , to the ende that we doe not attribute vnto humayne eloquence that which apperteineth vnto hym .

I speake this bicause of some delicate mo●thes , and curious of language , which regarde not but the stile and Curious men of speaches . the manner & phrase of speaking , without considering the sentence , and that that one speaketh , as though men doe write for the tongue , and for to learne onely , for to iangle and prattle as the Pyes and Iayes , not rather for to instruct the spirite , soule and the conscience . They regarde but the flowers , and care not for the fruite : And which is worse , one shall finde them of such corrupt iudgementes , that they preferre the paynted flowers , before those that growe naturally , thinckeing to beautifie their language , and to enrich the French tongue . GOD knoweth what a cuttinge and manglinge they make , and howe they mangle the Latine , so that they doe Manglers of Latine . speake neither Latine nor French. But desiring to auoide and not to vse all that which they thincke to bée common , to the ende they might bée estéemed the greater Oratours , doe forge and inuent a newe language , and doe despise the good French woordes , for to steale awaye those from straunge tongues . That curiositie and affection of language , is the cause that many delite rather to reade bookes , full of scoffinges , fables , lyes , and of blasphemyes , then those of diuinitie , or of some good diuines and holy men . And this vice is not onely in the French tongue , but also in that Latine . For ther are some which haue so great feare to defile their golden tongue , and to embrew These which doe auoide the reading of dinine bookes . their goodly stile with the simplicitie & basenesse of the Propheticall and Apostolicall language , that they had rather to defile their soules , vnderstandinges and spirites , in foolishe curious bookes , or in the writinges of the Panims and Idolaters , then to reade in the holye Scriptures the which they dare not touch : Or if they desire some Prouerbe . Velut Canis ? Nilo . time to drincke of it , that is as the dogge doth at the floud Nilus . They doe but sucke in the water hastely , as though they were afrayde to touch it , and that there were in it Crocodiles . They wyll touch it as a Cat doth hotte coales . I doe not condemne the reading of good Authours and of Poets , Oratours and Philosophers the which may serue vs to the glorie of God , if first of all we be well instructed in the Christian religion . But I can not allowe , but greatly condempne those whiche altogeather gyue themselues vnto suche Authours , or to others a greate deale worse , and make none accompte of the holy Bible and diuine bookes to which all other Sciences and disciplines ought to serue , and to whiche they ought to be preferred . Shall we not iudge him a foole & All Artes and disciplines the handmaides of holy bookes . out of his wyt , which will alwayes staye in his Grammer , and in the principles and rules of the same , and despyse the studye of other liberall Artes , and of Philosophie , and wyll in no wyse meddle wyth them , nor exercise himselfe in speakinge nor yet in writinge , fearinge to forget and lose those rules and groundes of Grammer ? Who wyll not iudge such a man to bee madde , sith that the Grammer , yea , the Rethoricke , ( whatsoeuer prayse that Cicero giueth vnto it . ) And the Logicke also , are not but as handmaydens and seruauntes vnto other disciplines , the whiche men doe learne for to serue vnto them ? Wée doe nowe mocke the barberous schole masters which wee haue had , which coulde reade vnto vs Doctrinall of Alexander . but doctrinall of Alexander , and doe holde vs therein all our lyfe time , wythout letting vs at any time taste any good Authour , insomuch that one shall neuer haue done , but the thing is alwayes to beginne agayne . Those some vnto me not to differ much from them . For notwithstanding that they doe reade better Authours , and that they doe exercise themselues to speake and wryte better . Yet Neuerthelesse I esteeme not all that which they doe , no more then the Grammer of Alexander , or as Grecismus and Roiolis , and the Logicke of Tartaret , and of other Sophisters , except they make all their skill and knowledge to the honour and glorye of GOD , and if they mynde it vnto anye other marke or ende . For otherwise whereto shall all their Eloquence without the feare of God . science and eloquence serue , but to the Panims and people without God ? the which is more hurtfull and daungerous , then profitable to the common wealth , in hym which hath not the feare of God , and which is not well instructed in the Christian doctrine . And when they haue studyed all their lyfe time to beautifie and 〈◊〉 foorth theyr language , I thincke yet neuerthelesse that a man shall not finde many amonge them , which can come vnto such perfection , by the which they may approch so néere vnto Gicero , as that seditious Catiline , who was very eloquent . Cleero and Gariline . But when they doe surmount Demosthenes , may not wee rightly ●ay that of them which Eschines hath sayd of him , comparing him vnto a flute , which hath but the beak of bil , Eschines and Demostlienes . the which is vnprofitable , after that the necke is cut off ? What is there also in these héere , but the tongue ? The which oftentimes hurteth many , and profiteth fewe . Is not a poore labourer which knoweth his God , and Iesus Christ his Sauiour , and which confesseth him in his rude The true science and eloquence . language , and which honoureth him through his good life and conuersation , to be preferred before all these greate Poets , Orators , and Philosophers , who are altogether ignoraunt , and which doe serue but the flesh , the world , and Sathan Prince of the same ? Are not they great Asses and beastes in comparison of him , and yet worse ? For the Oxe knoweth his Lord , and an Asse his Masters stall , as sayth the Prophet , the which those here , which will bée Esa. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 3. counted for true Israelits , Gods people , and Christians , wil not acknowledge nor serue hym , dooing vnto him so much honour , as the Oxe & the Asse doe vnto their Masters . How dare they esteeme themselues wyse , beeing ignoraunt of the knowledge of God , the which onely is the true knowledge , for to bringe vs vnto euerlasting blessednesse , in comparison of which all other which are called sciences , are but mennes opinions , errours , and lyinges , excepte they Iohn . 17. 23 haue this for a guyde . It is very harde to finde for such men mediciues proper to heale them , and meate for to make them haue an appetite , sith that they are so farre out of tast with the bread of lyfe , and the heauenly Manna , Out of east of the bread of life . to the which they preferre the garlicke , onyons , the flesh and fishes of Aegypt . For he that shall giue them such meate as they desire , shall but encrease their griefe the greater . And if the meate bée not as they woulde haue it , they will not tast of it . Wherefore I leaue such to bée handeled of those which haue more cunninge then I , and which can better helpe their disease . There are others which differ but a little from these héere , and which care not so muche of the language , but they haue yet a greate vice common with the first : that is , that they delite not in reading any good matter , graue , and whiche toucheth Gods woorde , and the health of their soules , but Curious readers of foolish bookes . vnto worldly thinges delectable to the flesh , pernicious and hurtfull to the spirite and conscience . And therefore , although that many good men haue written in French very learnedly and in a good language , touching the matters of our Religion , yet neuerthelesse that sorte of people cannot applye themselues to reade those good bookes , and can take no taste of them , bicause that their mouthe is not fitte for such meate , and that they are to precious for them . For the ●doriseraunt and sweete flowers The sweet smellings vnto hogs . smell not so swéete in the hogges noses , as the myre and durte . For that cause suche carnall men take more pleasure and delite in the bookes that speake their language . But the thinge is more detestable to women whiche delite to reade ●ookes of bawdry and whoredome . Vile and filthy bookes . For they vnderstande them the better bycause they are of the earth : and doe speake of earthlye matters , and cannot comprehende the celestiall language , bycause it is not naturall vnto them . Nowe such bookes as they desire are not wanting vnto them . For there are ynough of fooles bables throughout the worl●e , which Fooles bables . doe serue but for seoffing and testing , and which haue no other care , and applye their studie but to please men , and to nourishe theyr vaine curiositie , louinge better to speake pleasaunt thinges , then salutary , and to delyte the fleshe and the eares , more then to edifie the conscience . Yet thys was one of the causes whiche moued me to write and procéede after an other manner , then those whiche haue written before mée . For I consider that many doe leaue off to reade them , not onely Good books despised & forbidden . bicause it is forbidden in many Countreys , kingedomes , and Segmories , to reade good bookes whiche speake of GOD , suffering yet neuerthelesse the others , which doe induce but to dishonour and blasphemye . But also bicause , that although that it bée permitted vnto many to reade them , yet neuerthelesse they doe make none account of them , bycause that eyther they séeme vnto them very obscure and so wayghtye that they cannot well vnderstande them : or the tyme to longe , and take no pleasure to reade bookes whiche haue not some merrye conceytes and delites , for to make them pastyme . For they are yet to carnall , and finde no pastime in those bookes whiche speake but of GOD , and of the health of the Soule , if there bée nothing for the fleshe , the which they woulde onely keepe . There is no doubte , but that malady or dysease is very perillous , and that suche vicious and corrupt Natures , doe very muche displease GOD , sith that they haue so lyttle reuerence of him , and hys woorde , and that they preferre the poyson before the good meate .

Neuerthelesse bycause that amongest suche one maye yet finde some whiche are not altogeather peruerse and malicyous , but that they haue yet some seede of the feare of the LORDE in them , mée thinckes that wee muste not altogeather dyspayre and abanoon them , as sicke folke that are incurable , but that we must yet proue to winne them if it bee possible , and to transfigure and chaunge them into al formes and shapes , for to induce them to reade the holy Scriptures , and to giue vnto them some tast . For if we can conuert into good vses the meanes , by the which the Diuell gyueth himselfe to drawe away man from the word of God , and to robbe him altogether , and holde him in the vanities of this worlde , and may vse them as a baite on a hooke for to draw them from such vanities , and to incitate and prouoke them to the studye of the truth , me thincketh that wée doe nothing vnworthy of the office of a Christian man . For euen as the holy Apostle hath bene made all vnto all men , and doth applye and giue himselfe vnto euery one , in all The Christian all to all men . 1. Cot. 9. c. 20. that which was possible for him , without béeing against the will of God , making himselfe a Iew vnto the Iewes and a Gentile vnto the Gentiles . So me thinketh that by good right , I may doe the lyke , so that I do not altogether forget the Christian modestie and the honour and reuerence that the Christian oweth vnto the woorde of GOD . For if the bawdes of Sathan endeuour themselues through faire and goodly delites and merry conceites to destroy the poore and silly soults , the espowses of Iesus , and to drawe them away from him , for to make them serue him and to forsake their master : shall it not be lawfull for vs to vse an other practise and cunning for to let theirs , for to discouer and vnhide their filthinesse , for to make them appeare to be abhomination to all the world , and to retire and drawe backe the soules from his stewes , for to ioyne them agayne with Iesus Christ their Sauiour ?

If a paysoner doe couer and hide his poison with some delicate meate , for to poison and murther men , shall it not be by more iust reason peruntted to a Phisi●ion to mingle suger and hony amonge the wormewoode and the bitter Aleos : for to sweeten a little the bitternesse of these drinckes ? Which notwithstanding that they are bitter in the mouth , are yet neuerthelesse healthfull to the boote . For if such holy deceits are worthy of praise to the Phisitions Holy deceyts . of the body , wherefore shal it be despised to the Phisitions of the soules ? I would to GOD that he had giuen vnto vs the grace to deceiue so all the worlde for his profite and health . For the diseased is happie , which is deceiued by the Phisition to his health and healing : which is the ende to the which both the one and the other doe pretende , both the Phisition and the diseased . I know Booke discouering the abuses very well that there bée already many bookes written , which doe muche discouer abuses , and which doe sufficiently mocke the vaine ceremonies , idolatries , and superstitions , which are amonge the Christians , but that sufficeth not , except one doe teach what is the veritie , and what is a firme and sound doctrine . The which many haue already done , but bicause they séeme and appeare too seuere and graue vnto those with whom wée haue chiefly to doe , they reade them not , and doe profit nothing . There are others , which haue followed a manner to write altogether contrary vnto those . For euen as those haue regard to none other thing , but to entreate of the woorde of God with all grauitie , modestie , and reuerence , adressinge their writinges vnto people of good iudgementes and of temperate sences , and full of the feare of GOD : These héere vnto the contrary , haue not taken their sight but to the white and marke of mans vanitie and curiositie , and haue purposed to absteme themselues from all waightie , honest and holy matters , and to write onely of follyes , merry conceites , iestes , playes , and pastimes , as of fooles , morishdauncers , scoffers and iesters . And if they woulde holde themselues within those limits , they were the more tollerable : But many are not content to playe the fooles The office of fooles and scoffers . amongest men ( although that that office is scant méete vnto an honest man ) doe yet worse . For they giue themselues but to scurrilitie , and doe thincke that they cannot sufficiently inough delite men except their deuice bée altogether full of ruffenly talke and bawdry , of vilanies Vile and 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉〈◊〉 . and blasphemies , not onely intollorable to the Christians , but which shoulde bée iudged woorthy of grieuous punishmentes amongest the Iewes , Turkes , Panims , and Infidels . For if the Gentiles and Panims haue not taken and accompted for honest men , and worthy to bée aduaunced into anye honourable office in a common wealth , the Morishdauncers , Maskers , Iuglers , Players , Mummers , and Iesters , what honour is that vnto Princes and vnto Christian people to take delyte , not onelye in such men with their bookes , but in others a great deale more detestable , and more ruder in all filthy and vyle woordes , as the ruffians of the stewes , and denyers of GOD . Doe wée thincke that Iesus Christ hath sayde An idle word . Mat. 12. c. 35. wythout a cause , that for euery idle woorde that men shall speake , they must render accompt at the day of iudgement ? Sith that the trueth , which lyeth not telleth vs the same so cléerely , and doth meanace and threaten that wee muste render an accompt for euery idle word : that is to say , which is vaine and vnprofitable , whiche serueth nothing at all to the glorie of GOD , nor to any edifyinge of our neighbour : Doe wée thincke that our ribalde and bawdye talke , backebitings , euill speakings , vnaduised , slaunderous and infamous woordes which doe serue to none other ende but to peruerte the vnderstandings of men , to adde or heap euil vpon euil , to cast oyle into the fire , and to bring towe the better to inflame mans conscience vnto all wickednesse and abhomination , and vnto the which it is alreadie too muche inclined : Doe wée thincke that suche languages shall not come to an accompte , and that they shall not bée a reproche vnto vs and brought before our eyes at the iudgement of GOD ? Were it not better for vs to followe the admonition which the holy Apostle taught vs saying : Let your speach bée alwayes well sauoured Coll. 4. a 6 The language of the Christians . Ephe. 4. f. 29. and powdered with salte , that yée maye knewe howe to aunswere euery man . Let no filthy communication proceede out of your mouthes : but that which is good to edifie wythall , when néede is : that it maye haue fauour with the hearers .

And grieue not the holy spirite of GOD , by whome yée are sealed vnto the daye of redemption . Let not Ephe. 5. 2 3 fornication and all vncleanenesse or couetousnesse bée once named amonge you as it becomneth Sainctes : neyther filthinesse , neither foolishe talkinge , neither iestinge which are not comely : but rather giuinge of thanckes . Beholde the lesson whiche the Doctour of the Gentiles giueth vnto the Christians , for to learne them howe they ought to speake : the which many haue very euill studied and kept . For by their woordes and writinges , they profite to none other ende , but to infect and poyson the soules , and to hinder a great many of good spirites to read better bookes , and more profitable for their health and saluation . For man cannot bée idle , and excepte that hée dyd finde foolishe and wicked bookes for to applye therein his studye , hée should bée constrayned to séeke better and to occupie therein altogether his minde , wythout any detraction vnto vnprofitable thinges . I knowe very well that one maye vppon this replye , that such men in playinge and iestinge doe discouer the abuses of the worlde : But it is better not to remoue and discouer them , then to discouer and blowe them abroade after such a sorte . For by that manner of dooing , they may rather make of a To shew forth lying without the truth . superstitious and an hipocrite , a man wythout GOD and wythout Religion , then a good religyous and holye man .

For notwythstandinge that they doe shewe foorth the follye of men , and that which ought not to bee , yet neuerthelesse they shewe not that which ought to bée , and what is the true wisdome and the remedy for to redresse such diseases . It is very easie to mock and scoffe at lyings , and to shew that which is not , but it sufficeth not , ercept one doe shewe the trueth , and what it is . It sufficeth not to knowe Antechriste , excepte wée knowe Iesus Christ .

That is to teach after the manner as Cicero desputed of the Nature of the Gods , the which is more proper , Disentations of 〈◊〉 . for to shewe that which is not God , then who is God . Such manner of dooing bringeth no resolution to the conscience , but leaueth it alwayes in doubte and errour . And although those shall doe no worse , yet that shal be some thing , and they shall not altogether lose their time , for that they haue incitated and pricked men forwarde , and put a desire in them , to inquire of the truth , for to knowe it . For that is no little profit nor no little aduauntage , that they haue already brought it to that pointe . But these héere of whom I doe speake , doe not follow the stile , I say not , of some good diuine , nor onely of some good Panim Philosopher , but doe séeme that they are altogether giuen to the immitation of Lusian , a man without God and Lusian and Lustanistes . without Religion , a mocker and despiser of God and men . If it bée a matter to pastime , to laugh , play , and iest at the superstitions and idolatries , of to deuoute men , caphardes and hipocrites , and of all the estates of the world , we néede not search for none other Authour , and wée haue no néede of these new Lusianistes , which are but as his little Disciples , for to carrie his booke after him . For if wée must make comparison of the language , they approch nothinge néere to his eloquence . If wée must compare the spirite and the knowledge , there is as much difference as is betwéene the apprentice and the Maister . Wherefore if the writinges of Lusian and the matters that be entreated off , were very profitable and necessary vnto those whiche could not reade them in the Greeke tongue , or béeinge translated into the Latine tongue . I woulde counsaile rather his Disciples to trauayle and employ their eloquence to translate them in the French tongue , then to forge and inuent for vs newe Lusians , which doe but steale from him his inuentions and arguments , for to attribute them vnto themselues , as if they had bene the first Authours and inu●utours . For howe wicked so euer hée hath bene , and enemie to GOD and all Religion , yet wée cannot deme but that he was a wise man , a great Oratoure and a Philosopher , and that he hath written many good thinges , & a greate deale better then those do here , of which the faithful man may wel profit , so that he read them after an other spirit & intention then he hath written them , & that he do know to try the gold from the midst of the drosse , & to seperate the poyson , from the good meate , but those whom I rebuke , doe teach nothing which can serue to the honour and glory of God , nor vnto good manners , nor to the edification of the congregation , nor to ciuilitie , nor to the knowledge of naturall , humaine , nor diuine thinges , but to playe the foole , and to iest with all the worlde , and to moeke and despise aswell the true Christian religion , as the superstitions and abhominations of Antechrist . For if they would speake one honest woorde , it must be accompanied with fiftie vnhonest woordes . If they doe set foorth the truth , it must bée that it be alwaies enuironed with a thousand infamies and slaunders , as of Damoisels and body kéepers , for to hide , defend , & countergarde that it be not taken vncouered . Howe much can that manner of writing & speaking profite ? For the prayer of the truth is simple , & would The nature of the truth . not haue such couertures and cloaks , but would walke open and vncouered ▪ And if wée haue compassion of the ciuyle and imperiall lawes , bycause that they béeinge goodly in themselues , are dishonored by the hemme of those gloses & filthes of Bartolus , and barbarous writers . What may we The ●ems and gloses of the lawes and of the truth . say of the truth , so noble a daughter of the eternall king , accompanied with Damoisels so stincking , vile , and dissormed with so many filthinesse which doe marre and take from hir , hir beautie ? And to replie that it is not sure and wythout daunger to speake truth in any other manner , I doe aunswere to the same , that hée were ●etter to holde his peace altogether , then to preach it after such sort , and that it shoulde bee better not to giue meate vnto a man , then to giue him poyson for to kill him . Wherefore all thinges compted and reckenned , I knowe not howe one can conclude any other thing of such doctryne but that the Authours thereoff doe gyue occasion vnto those which haue any feare God , to account them for Lucianistes . And vnto those which haue nothing , or a very little , to pull them away altogether , and to make them recule & goe backe from the truth more then they were : As dayly wée sée it by experience in young children , merchants , gentlemen , damoisels , and courtiers , who after that they haue tasted of such bookes , are cleane out of taste , & cannot away with all other , which are not like vnto them . Wherfore I would gladly counsaile such men of so good a minde and spirite , which giue themselues to make such bookes , and I desire and pray them in the name of Iesus Christe , and so much as they loue his honour and theirs , to applie that goodly wit and vnderstanding which GOD hath giuen vnto them , and that rhetoricke and gift of eloquence , wherewith they are indued , into some better study , & matter more profitable , to the ende they bée not rebuked and blamed to haue abused the gyft of God against his honour and glorie . For that cause I haue purposed to write after a sort , which peraduenture will séeme very euilly to agrée with a Theologian , to wit , vnto one which wil speake of diuine letters : But I thincke that when men shal vnderstand my reasons , they will take my aduice and deliberation in good parte , and I will leaue vnto none any iuste occasion to accuse and rebuke mée in that I rebuke others , except that men loue rather to serue to their affections and to vse slaunders , then to iudge of thinges accordinge to truth and equitie . I haue already touched some reasons which haue induced mée to do that , besides yet I wyl adde too many others . The first is , that I would assay to make those learne by my example which haue a better wyt then I , to doe that which I my selfe cannot : the whiche thinge ought not to séeme to straunge . For a whetstone & a whéele doe sharpen well the Iron , and maketh it to cut , and yet neuerthelesse it is not sharpe nor cutteth of it selfe : And at the least wise I indeuour my selfe to shewe vnto those good wittes and spirites , which delyght themselues in pleasaunt thinges , and which occupie themselues to such vanities , and matters in the which they maye exercise their vnderstanding and cloquence , more to their honour before GOD and good people , and to more greater profit then they doe , if they will not apply themselues vnto matters to high and waightie , as many haue done , as well amonge the olde as the newe . And if I my selfe cannot doe that which I would teach vnto others , at the leaste wise I will serue them in stéede of a patterne , wherein they may finde some thing for to followe : Or at the leaste wise , the fault that they shal finde in my manner of procéeding , wyll admonishe them of the vices that they ought to auoyde in their writinges , the which if they finde in my stile , or in my inuention , or disposition , I am sure that they shall not finde in the sentence and substaunce of the matters , any thing vnworthy for a Christian man . For whatsoeuer thinge that it bée , I beléeue that one shall finde nothing which may induce to heresie , except those who of themselues doe pretende therevnto , and who as the Spiders doe drawe the venym from all places , and heresies out of the holy Scriptures , which are gyuen vnto vs to kéepe vs from all heresie . Although that I doe The manner to mocke to Gods glorie . mocke and iest at the abuses , errours , heresies , superstitions and Idolatryes of the Churche of Antechriste . Yet neuerthelesse whosoeuer shal wel marke and consider the matter , and shall haue patience to reade all the tenoure of the sentence and of the Argument vnto the ende , excepte hée be of a peruerse iudgement , shall bée constrayned and compelled to acknowledge and confesse that I doe not mocke or scorne of thinges which are worthy , not onely of mockery , but also of hatred and abhomination of all mankinde : And that I doe not onely vncouer the abuses without shewing by and by the true vse of the thinges : nor I doe not condempne the errours and the lyinges , without shewinge the trueth that wée muste followe , and wherein the faithfull ought to stay themselues : And I doe not manifest Antechrist for to auoyde and to flée from him , without shewing Iesus Christe for to followe him . Wherefore me thinckes , that those which haue their eares so delicate and cannot onely abide one lyttle woorde Delicate eares . against the Idolatry , superstition , & the great abuses which leade all the worlde into ruine , are not rightfull Iudges , but of a corrupt and peruerse iudgement . For what iudgement is this , to heare and sée the name of God , the death and passion of Iesus Christ to bée blasphemed dayly so horribly , and not to speake a woorde ? And to bée such an vniust and sharpe rebuker , and seuere Iudge , agaynst those who onely in scoffing and iesting will admonish & rebuke such blasphemers ? They doe willingly suffer that suche men doe mocke God openly , that they doe blaspheme hym without any shame : That they doe tourne vpside downe The louers of mans honour , are traitours of Gods honour . all Religion & the truth of Iesus Christ : That they make frustrate and of none effect the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion : That they doe eate vp and deuoure his poore shéepe before their eyes : That they doe leade the poore soules vnto perdition & eternall dampnation , & doe holde all the world in errour & Idolatry for to destroie them altogether : And cannot we suffer that vnto such mockers & blasphemers of God and of men , one should onely giue a little holy water of the court , and that one should sprinckle them with the least thing of the world , onely with some little word or saying , or with some pleasant word , the which can hurt no man , and which is no dishonour vnto God , but serueth to discouer the abuses , and to bring the mouths of the faithful out of fast , with the idolatry and superstition : and to manifest vnto them the seducers , for the health of their soules . I dóe greatly meruaile of those great louers of the honour of Hipocrites , Sedusers , false Prophets , rauishers , & deuourers of the poore widdowes , and fatherlesse , mockers , contemners , & blasphemers of the word of God , & haue so little The honour of Iesus trodden downe . regard or care of the honour of God , & of Iesus Christ our Lord , whom they sée daily to be crucified before their eyes , and to bée spurned and trodden vnderfoote the bloud of his testament , and couenaunt , and yet dare not speak a woord : But which is worse , they wil not yet suffer that others , vnto whom God hath giuen the meanes , and boldneess , should speake , and rebuke such abuses and sacrileges importable to all good Christian hearts . Mée thinkes that such people haue no iust occasion to condempne vs in that behalfe . For if they are too wise , and doe thincke that such things Cuer wise . agrée not with the grauitie of their persons , then let them leaue them to be spoken of the fooles , sith that as men doe The priuiledge of Fooles . say they haue the priuiledge to speake all things . For as for my part , I would be very well contented , that God would giue me the grace , that I might say vnto them , as the Apostles sayd vnto the Corinthians : Ye are wise and 1. Cor. 4. c. 10. we are fooles for the loue of Christ . If they would preach Iesus Christ couert and hid , let them not be angry if wée To preach Iesus Christ couertly & hid . preach him all naked and openly , and him crucified . And if we cannot glory but in the foolishnesse of his crosse , as the Apostle sayth , the which yet neuerthelesse is the true wisdome 1. Cor. 1. c. 9. of GOD , althoughe that the worlde reputeth it foolishnesse . For we doe well perceiue what profite there commeth of their so hidden preachings , of which none can almost receiue any fruite , except he vnderstand the matter that they intreate off , almost as well as they themselues . For what vtilitie and profite can there come vnto the poore 〈…〉 rant people , for whome the sermons oughte to be chiefest made ? doe they not alwayes continue in their errors ? and are they not confirmed the more by their darke questions , and hyd words ? the which the hearers do draw and take for their aduauntage , and interprete them after their owne sence and meaning , and not after the meaning of the speaker , except he doe expounde if playnly , or at the least in manner that one vnderstande not one thing for an other . For the poore people cannot vnderstande that Sophistry , nor comprehend their darke questions and problemes , who haue yet much adoe ●o vnderstande that which one declareth vnto them as vnto lyttle children . For if a learned man knoweth very well hew to drawe out of their sermons the consequences the which they will entreate off , how many shall one finde of others , which wyll , doe cleane contrary . And although there were but their stlence , by the which they doe dissimule the abuses and the Idolatry , doe they not approue sufficiently the false relygion ? I doe feare very much , that one shall not finde many , amongst these so wise and discréet , which are so prompt and ready to iudge and condempne all those which follow not their counsayle and carnall wisedome , of suche an aduise and opinion as Demades was , who did mocke the Athenians , The counsell of Demades . Vale. Max. lib. 7 c. 2. bicause they did put themselues in daunger , to fall into the indignation and displeasure of Alexander the great , and to loose their landes , townes , and countryes , bicause they refused to giue vnto the sayd Alexander the diuine The ambition of Alexander . honours , and to worship him as a God : vnto whom Demades sayd . Take ye good héed , least in kéeping the Heauen you do lose the earth : willyng therby to giue the Athenians to vnderstande , that they were great fooles , to put themselues in such daunger , for to kéepe the honour of the Gods : And that it were better for them to be Idolaters of men , and to honour Alexander as a GOD , then to loose both bodye and goodes , whose counsayle they followed . Wherefore Diogenes in mocking and iesting of their vanitie Diogenes . and flatterie , saide vnto them . Sith that you haue made Alexander a God , and doe honour him for Bacchus , Bacchus , S●rap●s . August . de ciuita Dei. lib. 18. c. 5. make mée also Serapis , and honour mée as him . For euen as Bacchus was honoured among the Satyres , so was Serapis honoured and worshipped in Aegypt in the lykenesse of an O●e , and taken for the great God : of whome the lawe was made , that whosoeuer did call him a man , and did not accompt and take him for God , should loose his lyfe . Wherefore almost in all the temples and churches Matrob . li. 3. c. 9 Varro de lingu●●at lib. 3. Augerona , Hars pocrates . Sylence . Outd . Meta. 9. Sanctaque B●●a ●is , var●sq●●●o loribus Apis. in which Serapis was honoured and Isis in lyke manner , they vsed to holde an Image , lyke vnto that which the Romaynes called . Augerona , the which some doe call Harpocrates , who did holde his finger agaynst his mouth , admonishing euery one to kéepe silence , least they should speake any thing agaynst those goodly Gods , which might bring hurte vnto the speakers . O woulde to God that we had Qulqus premit vo●●● dig●toque silentia suadet . pers digiro compose● labellum . not so many Alexanders , Serapis , and Isis , who being●nortall men , would yet neuerthelesse be taken and accompted as Gods among men , and that their Idolles , lawes , ceremonyes , traditions , statutes and ordinaunces should bée preferred defore God and his woord : nor so many Harpocrates , which doe not onely make a signe with the finger , that those vnto whome God hath giuen the heart to confesse the truth should holde their peace , and be not dumine Images , but should know very well to rebuke those which haue a better affection then they , and which doe speake that which they dare not take in hande . For they will not loose the lande or earthe , for to kéepe the Heauen : and doe accompt and take those for fooles , rash and mad , which doe make themselues to be persecuted , for to uphold and maintaine the word of the Lord.

But it is greatly to be feared , that in thinking to kéepe the earth the which they preferre before the Heauen , they loose both Heauen and earthe , as it happeneth vnto many , who loued rather to follow the counsaile of Demades , then that of Iesus Christ , and the example of him and of his Apostles . And how do those edifie , who in their secret preaching , doe put alwayes a rype betwéene two rotten , or rather a rotten betwéen two rype , disguising as much as they can Gods truth , after that they haue preached for the lyttle feare that they shall haue , will denye all that which they haue well preached before , and will denye Iesus Christe openly to the great slaunder of all the poore faithfull people , whome they neuer haue confessed but particularly , secretly and priuily ? I doe not speake this for to rebuke any man of his infirmitie , inconstancie , or carnall feare , by the which he which thinketh to be very hardy & constant , doth finde hymselfe ouercome : But I speake onely vnto a companye of vayne and glorious fooles , which doe these thinges and worse , and yet neuerthelesse woulde fayne couer and hyde their faults and condemyne the poore faithfull people , who hazarde their lyfe for to aduaunce and amplyfie the kingdome of GOD , and which boldelye and constatlye rebulie Idolatry and the abuses . Mée thinkes that they do The office of a Prophet . Iere. 1. b. euill vnderstand the office of the Prophet , to whom it is not onely commaunded of the Lord to plant and buyld vp : but also to roote out , breake , off and to destroy , for to plant and buyld afterwards , and to cry as loude as he can , lyke Esa. 58. a. 1 10. tho voyce of a trumpet , for to shew vnto the people their offences , and to the house of Iacob their sinnes . If they wil say , that we which are out of daunger , haue goodly scoffing , let them then suffer vs to doe that which they would not , dare not , or cannot doe . If they thinke that it is a matter too vyle for them , and that they will not occupy themselues but about graue and waighty matters and of great importance ; let them suffer vs to play the children with the children , and to abase our selues with the lyttle ones , and to vse our plaine speach with the rusticall , and to edifie the poore ignorant , as they doe edifie the wise , and to vncouer the errors vnto those which know them not . If they be great Diuines and seuere Philosophers , let them accompt vs for young Grammarians , who do but a lyttle open and bruse the matters , and to chewe vnto the simple people the meate a lyttle more smaller , for to prepare them to their schoole , and vnto a more higher Philosophie . If they thinke that , we must entreat of such matters with more greater grauitie & modestie , I deny not that we can entreate of the word of God with to great honour , and reuerence : But I would that they had aswel the consideration , that the word of God is not so seuere , but that it hath his merry conceits , sports , honest games , merry iests , & words couenable & most agreeing The manner to speke merely in the holy Scrip. to his grace & Maiestie . And he that will trye & proue it , let him consider how . GOD himselfe , and Iesus Christ that greate celestiall Orator , doth speake sometime , either in rebuking his Disciples or the Hipocrites and reprobate : and among those which the Lord did speake , without heaping together , a great many of examples , that they would onely , marke and behold what answere Ioas the father of Gedeon dyd Iudges . 6. f. 31. make vnto the Burgesses and Citizens of the towne who Iudges . 6. f. 31 complayned to him of his sonne , which had pulled downe and destroyed the Idoll of Baal and his Aulter : And the wordes that Ely had with the Prophets of Baal : What 3. Reg 18. e. 15. Esa. 44. b. 13. mocked did he giue them ? And Fsay in lyke manner against the Babilonians and their Idolles ? Who yet neuerthelesse were both of them graue & very seuere Prophets . And in the booke of wisedome , and in Baruch and in the Sapien. 13. 14. 15. 36. Epistle attributed vnto Ieremy . I will leaue off to alleage the examples of so many good auncient Doctors , who in their bookes , and by their writings haue so much iested and mocked at the superstitions and Idolatries of the Pan●ns , which had more greater reason and appearaunce then those against whome we doe at this time fight . He that will not beléeue me let him read their workes , chiefely of Tertulian , Eusebius , Lactantius , Augustine , Hierome , and other lyke , vpon all those that they haue written against the Pan●ns and Heretickes . Wherefore then shall not that bée permitted vs in Dialogues , which we rebuke not in those great men , when they haue spoken it in their owne person , the which requireth more grauitie , then if they did bringe in other men speaking and disputing together , as I doe in my Dialogues & disputacions . For ther is none of a good Licence and libertie of Dialogues . iudgement , but that he vnderstandeth very well that in the phrase of writing there is no greater libertie and licence in Poetry , then Dialogues and talkes . For they must bring in the persons speaking according to him whom they represent : who oftentimes do speake more after their sence and of the persons whom they doe iest at , then according or after the same of the authour . Although that the author hath willingly vsed to choose some one by whom he giueth to vnderstande what is his opinion , and the best sentence . Therfore I haue brought in foure men of diuers qualitis The persons of the Dialogues . and opinions , and doe make them to speake according to the matters which are talked off at this daye among men , and according to the nature and affection of euery one of them . I haue brought in one as a man very deuout and searing God , which neuerthelesse is yet altogether wrapped in supersticion and errour , and maynteineth mans traditions , but not wilfully . I haue brought in an other , which is not yet fully assured and set downe neyther on the one side nor on the other , but is troubled in his conscience , and knoweth not very well whom to beleeue , but runneth on the one side and ●n the other , and yet neuerthelesse desireth to know the truth , and he enquireth and knoweth already many abuses : wherefore he speaketh a lyttle more ioyfully , and careth not so much for mans traditions , and is not so affectioned after them , nor so seuere as the first , who is yet altogether rooted in these olde superstitions . Afterwards commeth one , who representeth the person of a graue & honest man , & skilfull in the heauenly and humaine letters . which speaketh dayly with great honour and reuerence of the word of God and absolueth the questions and maters alleaged of the one side and of the other , according to the sentences of the holy Scriptures , and auncient Ecclesiasticall Doctors . And for the fourth there is one which is a little more talkatiue then this , and a lyttle more giuen to speake fréely agaynst the abuses , but he doth it with more greater modestie & honestie , then the Caphards doe speake against the ministers , and louers of the truth . I doe sayne this man to haue more skill or knowledge in humayne letters then the others , and which speaketh willyngly and ioyfully , but in such sort , that he playeth in earnest , and sayth nothing but to the dishonour of Antechrist , for to magnifie Iesus Christ , & that he is content to be corrected by his companion , if any thing be to be blamed .

Wherefore if any man would saeme to cauill , because it séemeth vnto him some time that this man playeth the parte Humaine letters m●ngled with the diuine . of a mocker , and that he mingleth the humayne letters , Histories and Poetryes with the diuine , let him consider the person whom he representet● & that he doth not speake any thing so absurde nor so straunge , but that it serueth to the presente matter , and lette him not vere himselfe anye more .

Furthermore if Saint Paul by occasion hath sometime Act. 17. f. 28. 1. 〈◊〉 . 15. b. 12. Titus . 1. d. 12. alleaged the witnesse of the Panuns , yea of Poets , for to serue to his matter , and if the auncient Doctors of the Church of whom I haue already spoken off , haue yet done more and their booke haue serued them so well for to confounde them themselues , and to vanquish them of their errours and to shew vnto them more cléerely the truth & vertue of our relygion : Insomuch that Iulian the Apostate in The forbidding of Iulian the Apostate . Histo. trip . lib. 9. cap. 17. spite of his beard was constrayned to forbid the Christians to reade them : he ought not to thinke it straunge , if I do follow their example in lyke things , chiefely when I wyll shew plainly and openly before all mens eyes , how the superstitions and Idolatryes of the Christians were taken from the Panims and Idolaters , and altogether lyke or worse . I doe not alleage them for that Gods truth is not sufficient of it selfe , to allowe and maynteyne it selfe , but for to make all thinges to serue him , and for to make the lyght the better to bée knowne from darkenesse , the truthe from lyinge , and the better to vanquish and ouercome the shamelessé seducers , who would yet hide and couer theire heresies and abhominations , if one doe not shew them forth with the finger , and except one doe take them as the theefe vppon his theft and robbery , and the shamelesse whore with hir whoredome . And if there be any yet which will not be contented with those resons , I will shew vnto him such an excuse and defence as Mantuan did make for himselfe , in a matter almost lyke , saying : Thinke not that I am to be rebuked bicause that 1. Lib. de patiē . c. 23 I haue recourse to the authoritie of an heathen man . For Saint Augustine which is one of our Doctors , sayth : If the Philosophers haue said any thing confirmable vnto our fayth , we must not auoyd them nor feare them , but rather we ought to conuert & tourne them to our vse and profite , as things recouered & taken away from vniust possessours , for to make them serue to their true possessours .

If they doe then admit the iust and reasonable excuse of Mantuan , and doe attribute anye authoritye vnto Saint Augustine , they ought not to doe vnto me worse then to other . And if it séeme vnto any of our sages and A buses are not yet inough vncouered & made knowne . wise men , that the same is but lost time , and that we néede not now any more to discouer the abuses , bicause that they are already sufficiently discouered and opened , I am of the contrary opinion , and doe know cleane contrary by experience . I knowe not whether the sages haue séene the abuses so vncouered , and whether they ( which dare not speke of Iesus Christ but with halfe a mouth , and dare not preach but secretly ) haue founde people among them of so sharpe and earnest a spirite , that they doe know all things and are ignoraunt of nothing . But as for vs which are héere , we haue experience cleane contrary . For sithens that the Gospell hath bene preached already ten or twelue yeares in some places , and fréely ( the which men dare not in all places ) and the abuses haue ben manifested so cléerely and playnly as the same is cléere at hye noone , we are yet all abashed , that we doe finde dreamings , errours and great superstitions in some , yea in those in whome a man would not thinke , and yet we doe thinke that we haue alreadye much profited in the knowledge of God . But that is meruayle that of the marke & carecter of the Diuell , which is so harde to deface , and of an olde custome which is so hard to teare out , and so much the harder the worse it is . Wherfore I shal be much abashed , that there where one dares not speake of Iesus Christ , nor to open his mouth agaynst Antechrist , that the errours and abuses were all so cléere and manifest , that there was no more néede to speake of them , inasmuch as héere and there wher the truth is cl●rly & fréely preached , one cannot tell which way one can plucke and teare them from the hearts of men , and that it is not requisite to say or speke any more against them . Or it must be that God hath there more amply shed out his grace , or els that there are héer● very dull spirites and wits in comparison of others . But I feare rather that those which glory in themselues to know them so much , know not themselues the moite , and vnderstande very euill , that which they thincke to knowe . For if they had intelligence and vnderstanding such as they thincke to haue , and that they dyd knowe the abhomination such as it is , and howe it displeaseth God , and is noisome and hurtfull vnto his church , they would retyre and drawe themselues further from it then they doe , and it should bée vnpossible that they could sée and suffer it , but would flée rather away from thence , or they would suffer themselues rather to bée burned , then to dissemble and consent vnto it : But would say as the faithfull of whom the Prophet hath written , which doe consider the grace which God hath done vnto them , and comparing them with their first condition , say , to the great abhomination Esa. 30. c. 22. of al Idolatry . Fie , get you hence . And therefore , one cannot to much manifest the abuses . For truth cannot be The profit to vncouer abuses . knowne without discouering them & pulling them downe . And in dooing that , one doth manifest them vnto those who knoweth them not yet , which shal be alwaies more in number than we would , the which we must draw away . Afterwards the thing may serue them which already haue the knowledge , many wayes . First for to refreshe and quicken the memory from the darknesses in which they haue bene , to the end , that they may knowe the better the blindnesse & infirmitie of mans vnderstanding , & what he may do of himselfe , when hée wyll bée guided by his owne head , and forsake God and his woorde , for to followe men and their traditions . Afterwardes , that shall serue them for a remembraunce and signe of the triumph of Iesus Christ , and of his truth , to the confusion of Sathan , Antechriste , lyinge , and mans wisdome , who wyll exalt hymselfe aboue the knowledge of GOD , to the ende that hée haue more occasion to humble himselfe , to acknowledge the mercye that GOD hath done for him , and to render thanckes vnto him : And that hée bée more prudent and better aduysed héereafter , and praye vnto the LORD more earnestly that hée doe kéepe hym that hée doe neuer fall againe into such or like errours and inconueniences . Furthermore that shall serue hym as a pricke , the better to pricke him forwarde to indignation against Antechriste , and to haue compassion vppon the poore ignoraunt people and his wandering and erringe bretheren , and to take wyth more greater courage the cause of the trueth in hande , considering the vnworthynesse of the thing . And he that shall bee yet weake , should fortefie and strengthen himselfe , and hée that shall bée already firme and stronge , should confirme himselfe more . For all these causes and reasons , GOD woulde that the errours and sinnes of the people shoulde bée registred , and hath so many tymes commaunded that they should bee remembred . And the Prophet Esay dyd not admonishe so many times wythout cause the people , after that hée had well mocked them for Esa. 46. c. 8 Idolatry , that they should remember those thinges to the ende they maye the better knowe the iudgement of God which is vppon the Infidels , which are as bruite beastes , and what treasure it is to haue the truth of God and his woorde . And if any man wyll yet saye , that notwythstanding that it is not euill , but very profitable and necessary to shewe foorth and declare the abuses , yet neuerthelesse wée must not procéede in such sort , which should séeme peraduenture vnto some men more proper and fitte for to bée offended , then for to bée edified by it : I doe aunswere vnto the same , that I knowe not what those shall bée that shall reade those bookes , nor what occasion they maye haue to bée offended . I doe thincke that they shall not bée so much estéemed that many people woulde reade them : Beside that many peraduenture woulde , whiche cannot . But howsoeuer it bée , if those that doe reade them are good and vertuous people and fearing GOD , they shall knowe that I studye not but to manifest the veritie , and to glorifie Iesus Christ , & that those whom I rebuke are not onely worthy to bée mocked , but vnworthy that the earth beareth them , excepte they wyll acknowledge their faultes , and giue glorye vnto GOD . If they were ●picures and contemners of GOD , they can be no worse Ep●●●es then they are , and therefore knowe in what reputation they ought to bée vnto all good people , and that they are vnworthy to be taken and accompted not onely for Christians , but for men béeing a great deale more worse then bruite beastes . If they bée Pharises and obstinate Hipocrites , Hypocrytes Ma●. 15 a. 1. The offence of the Pharises . and that they doe séeke the occasion of offence , they doe finde it in Iesus Christ . Wherefore wée must not much care or take thought for it . For they doe take the offence wythout any man gyuing it them , and are an offence vnto themselues , and cannot heare the truth wythout béeing offended . Wherefore wée must holde vnto that which Iesus Christ sayde vnto them : Let them alone , for they are the blinde leaders of the blinde . They Mat. 15. b. 14. must vnderstande that an euill knotte and harde péece of Malo nodo Malus tuntus . woode to cleaue , hath néede of an harde wedge and a stronge mall to cleaue it . If they are so shamelesse , that they haue no shame at all , and haue their heart so obstinate and hardened , that they haue no remorse of censcience , in mockinge of GOD and blaspheminge hym so horriblye as they doe daylye , and doe teste so at men to their greate losse and hurte , shall wée bée more ashamed to tell them their iniquitie ? to rebuke their abuses and abhominations which they dooe ? If they woulde not that one shoulde speake of them , let them leaue off and cease to doe them .

For I beléeue that there is not a man of a good hearte , which taketh any great pleasure to remoue that filthinesse except they bée constrained to doe it through their importunitie , impudencie and shamelesse face . For what good Christian heart can suffer , that dayly men shoulde hyde those abhominations , and that one shoulde couer suche villanyes , makinge vs to beléeue , that their filthmesse and stincke is as sweete as balme : their poyson to bée the bread of lyfe : lyinge to bée the truth : Hell to bée Paradise : cursinge to bée blessinge : darkenesse to bée light : and death lyfe ? As for me I cannot colour , flatter nor hyde the thinges , and I cannot but name them by their names . For such is the language and style of the spyrite of God , which will not speake after mens fantasies The stile of the holy Ghost . and for to please them , as the Oratou●s , which can giue vnto vices the names of vertues , and such colour as it pleaseth them , but to speake truth , as the thinge is , calling Idolatrie , that which the Hipocrites and Idolaters doe call diuine seruice , and their Idolles , Diuells , the which they call Gods. Wherefore althoughe The forehed of hypocrytes and prophets such Hipocrites haue their forheades of stone and Iron so harde and immutable , that one cannot make them blushe , but doe kéepe their countenaunces as théeues and murtherers , and shamelesse as harlots , yet let them vnderstand on the other side that GOD hath giuen to his seruaunts , as he said vnto Ezechiel , aforehead of Brasse , and of Ezech. 3 b. 9 a Diamond which is yet more harder , and which doth lesse shame to speake the truth and to giue praises vnto God , then they to mainteine lyings , & to blame it . And therfore the Lord commaunded Ezechiel , saying : goe speake vnto Ezech. 3 b. 7 them , and say vnto them that which I haue commaunded thée . I know neuerthelesse that they will do nothing , but I will that thou do tell them . I know not what excuse such men can haue . For they haue bene already taught al manner of wayes . If they do complaine that one hath learned & taught them to sharply , and with to great seueritie and rigor , I would learne and teach them a little more ioyfully , and more iestingly , then bitterly . If they doe yet finde my manner of dooing too sharpe , there are as many others , which haue written as modestly as is possible , & yet they finde no goodnesse in it , and leaue not off to perseuer alwayes worse and worse , in their errours and heresies . Wherefore I knowe not what song one may sing vnto them , but to rebuke them of that which Iesus Christ rebuked the Iewishe people , and that which the little children , whiche played in the stréetes , rebuked their companions off : when Mat 11. b. 16 wée dyd singe vnto you sorrowfull thinges , you haue not wepte , when wée dyd singe vnto you ioyfull thinges you haue not daunsed . Iohn Baptist came in great seueritie ●austeritie , & haue found him very sharp , & they say he hath the Diuell within him . Iesus Christ came with all humilitie and gentlenesse , and they said that he was a drunkard and a glutton , and a friend vnto publicans and sinners . If one do speake vnto them sharply , as their iniquitie requireth , they say that one is furious and mad . If one do speake vnto them pleasantly , they will call him foole or scoffer . To conclude , they will alwaies finde some thing to say , as wée sée it by experience in our time . Many men at the beginning haue taken vppon them to touch a little some abuses , yet of the most grosest & most apparant . These Hipocrites could not beare them , but they haue persecuted them by sea and land . They cannot onely suffer that one should touch a little with his finger their Idolatry & superstition , & that one should open his mouth for to speak one word for to reforme their estate , but which is more , haue declared themselues to be enemies vnto all learned & wise men , which haue trauailed to abolish all barberousnesse and sophistrie for to set vp againe all good letters and other disciplines , & haue accompted and condemned them for heritickes , and haue put them in great daunger of their liues . Sith then that they cannot suffer those héere , that they should goe so pleasantly , not onely of little dialogues , & familiar talke for little children , which doo vnto them yet more greater honour then they deserue and do flatter them more then is néed , God hath raised vp others , who haue in such sort remoued their filthines , the which others haue not done but a little tickled vp , that they haue in such sort made the filthinesse and stinke so to auoide , that all the world doth perceiue and foole it , in such sort that one can no longer abide and suffer it . When these sharpe surgeons are come , which haue thrust their instrument so deepe within the Apostume , that they haue perced them euen vnto the heart , and bones , they haue begun to reiect the first which did but a little touch the wounds and sores without , and through their gentlenesse make them to fester and waxe worse and worse , makinge of it but a certeine pallatiue cure or healing . When they haue experimented and tried the second , they haue cried out Alarome against them , and haue bene constrained to prayse the first whome they condempned in comparison of those héere .

Afterwards , came consequently others who haue a little better vncouered their disceite , and which haue better manifested the villany and the fornications of the great whoore of Babilon , insomuch that those whome men accompted to bée so earnest and such heretickes , haue begun by them to bée estéemed gentle and good men , in comparison of the latter . And so they haue had of all sortes , and yet they will vnderstand nothing . Wherefore mée thincks they can no more pretende ignoraunce nor infirmitie , or any iust excuse , but that it is tyme to aunswere to a foole according to his foolishnesse , to the ende hée thincke not alwaies Pro. 19. to bée wise . Wée must then let them to vnderstand that men doe accompte them for suche as they are , and they must not any more spare them , sith that they woulde waxe worse and empaire if one shoulde kéepe them , and the more that one doth thincke to make them méeke and gentle in flattering them , they become the more sauage , wilde , and madde . And therefore I thincke that those that are of a good iudgement , and which doe consider the thinges according to the truth , shall bée constrained to confesse that I flatter to much . Although that I doubt not but that one shal finde some which may say of me that which is sayd commonly of the Asse , which woulde The fable of the Dogge and of the Asse . Apes required in the courte of Babilon . play wyth his master , as hée did sée the dogge doe , strikinge him and leaping vpon hym with his féete . I am very sure that such playes and games doe not please the king of Babilon and his court , and that they will not haue suche Apes , excepte they bée otherwise apparelled , then that poore Asse was . For they haue not accustomed that those little Ladyes dogges , which make them sporte and wagge the tayle , and which are learned and taught to Ladyes Doggs . runne and leape on the Ladyes and Gentlewomen , and those pleasaunt Apes and Marmesettes for to make them pastime . But the LORD wyll haue none other Apes in his Church , then such dullardes as the world iudgeth them , which doe playe and iest earnestly , and doe goe as they doe intende , in all simplicitie , without dissemblinge that which ought not to bée dissembled . Hée will not haue such lyttle pleasaunt dogges , for to bée a delite and pleasure vnto Ladyes , but woulde haue good Mastyes and great greyhoundes which are not to be carryed in the Bsa . 56. c. 10 The mastyes & grayhounds of Iesus Christ . Horat. Hae n●●gae seria ducunt , ridentem diccr● Verum . Quid vetant . sléeue , but for to barke and driue awaye the Wolfe from the folde . Wherefore if there bee men whiche in laughinge doe bite , they doe giue vs to vnderstande that they take no great pleasure , by such playes and pastimes , but that they woulde haue other pastime and occasion to speake of better matters . Yet neuerthelesse they doe shew vnto those which doe loue the pastyme , and which take Democritus . pleasure in them as Democritus hath laughed and scoffed at the follies and dreames of men , that it is not nowe néede that they doe séeke any other matter . The courte To laugh at the popes cost . of Antechrist gyueth them ynough , and most worthyest to laugh at , and in the which one maye better iest wythout offending GOD , if one doe it wyth such affection and such modestie as is in these Dialogues . Those also which shall bée totter and seuere , and which as Heraclitus Heraclitus . doe iudge the follies and miseries of men more worthy of wéepinges and lamentations , then of laughings and iestinges , they shall haue héere matter ynoughe to wéepe , séeing the iudgement of GOD which hath bene , and is yet vpon the Christian people bicause of our sinnes , and despisinge of his woorde . Insomuch , that me thinckes that I haue not written any thing which may bring hurt vnto the Christian religion .

And though I doe not profite very much , yet neuerthelesse there wanted in mée no wyll . Wherefore I doe trust that the good men will take all in the beste parte : whome onely I feare to offende . If the wycked are angrye wythout a cause , I will leaue them for such as they are : yet I speake neuerthelesse the veritie , although they will not take it . If the wise and learned cannot much profit , it is sufficient for me that the poore ignoraunt people should receiue some fruite : Although that such a one doe thincke himselfe very wise and learned , that he may yet finde some thing for to learne . It is very true that that matter requireth better to be intreated off in Latine then in French. For it conteineth things which would haue ben plainer & which would haue bene entreated off more briefly , the which peraduenture I may be rebuked for ouermuch prolixitie & tediousnes . But there are many reasons which are the cause . The first , is for that I am one of those Oratours which know not to enter in talke , or begin any matter , nor which know not howe to leaue off . The second , bicause that I doe write most of all for the ignorant and rude people , for whom we had néed to chew their meates a little , and to declare the matters more grosly the which they cannot vnderstand in one word , as those that are wise & learned , which wil comprehend it very easily , as those which haue read the Authours out of whome I haue taken the matter . Therefore there is yet an other reason : that is , that I must vse great circumlocutions and narrations for to expresse and declare that which in Latine or in Greeke myght bee spoken in one woorde . For the things are more harde vnto those which haue not read the Greeke and Latine authours . But I haue tolde alreadye the causes which haue moued mée to write rather in this language then in an other . And if the matter bee worthy to bée put in the Latine tongue , if it please the Lorde , it may bée done at leasure : or it maye moue the heart of some which will do it better . Be it as it is , it is to mée sufficient , so that I doe serue a little the good . If I doe offende the Hipocrites , I would be contented that they bée offended with mée , so that they doe finde better tast in all the other which haue spoken and written of the relygion a great deale better then I , and so that they haue them in such honour and reuerence as they ought to haue . Histories of our time . Also I thinke that none shall finde vnfitte for the matter many of the histories of our time , the which I haue set in and mingled among these matters . For if it be lawfull to alleage the auncient historyes written by others , wherefore should we not speake of that which is done in our time when occasion serueth ? Sith that so many things do come dailye more worthy of remembraunce then many of those which the auncients haue written ? Wherefore I haue not estéemed and thoughte that to bée a thinge inconuenient nor vnworthy of remembraunce , which we our selues and our fathers are witnesses . Also I haue put the quotations of the authours in the margents , out of whome I haue taken that which I haue alleaged , to the ende it should not appeare that I haue inuented them of mine owne head , aswell of the Philosophers , Poets , Historiographers , as Doctors , Questionaries , Sophisters , as of the auncient Doctors of the Church and holy Scriptures .

FINIS .

¶ THE ARGVMENT AND SVMME of the first Dialogue .

IN this first part and first Dialogue I doe amply entreat of the matters which concerne those that be deceased , declaring the errours , abuses , & superstitions , which are committed about them , and the false and diuerse opinions which haue bene and yet are among men , aswel touching the estate of the bodies as of the soules . And of hell , Limbus patrum and of Purgatorie . And how that which the supersticious Christians do about the dead , is nothing at all lyke vnto the woord of God , but is altogether taken of the Infidells & Panims . And for to enter into the matter , I bring in the persons who take their theame and matter vpon a fermon which they heard of an holy father , entreating of such matters . And although the matter might seeme wholy to be fayned , yet it hath the foundacion vppon a true history . For mine intent is partly in this first disputacion , to rebuke the sottish and vayne curiositie of foolish Preachers and Doctors , who haue forsaken the principal points of the holy Scripture to occupy themselues vpon vnprofitable questions & vayne contemplations , & to enquire , of things that they cannot know and which wee haue not to doe withall . And which serue to none other ende but to hinder and let the poore Christian people to seeke out the will of God , to induce and lead them to false religion , supersticion , Idolatay and all Paganisme . Also I declare the Arguments of the Popes Purgatorie with the Purgatorie of the Panims , and the ceremonies and supersticions which they vse about the dead , & out of what spring they issued , and what haue bene the purgations of the Panims which the Idolatrous Christians do yet keepe : and how the Papisticall Purgatory hath serued the insatiable auarice of those which doe lyue to destroy and deuoure all the poore world . Also how the priests Purgatorie is burned , how fire hath taken the same and what punishment is prepared for those which go vnto strange fire to be purged from their sinnes any other then the fire of lesus Christ : and how the priests do disagree both from the word of God , and from their owne doctrine , decrees and cannons . After those things we shal enter into the second part which shall entreat of the appearing of the spirites of those that be dead . All these things shal be yet more playnly vnderstoode and better confirmed by the Dialogues following , of the which the last shal be of the immortalitie of the soules and the resurrection of the flesh . Afterwardes we will come vnto the lyuing , and in the other parts wee shall enter into matters yet more graue , more necessary and of greater importance , for the present time , to shew what is the estate of the world & of relygion , and by what meanes that man which feareth God , and the poore troubled and doubtfull consciences , may be assured and know what is the true Church & the truth , and wherevnto they may surely stay themselues , and how they may be certeine what doctrine is of God . I haue intituled this first Dialogue the Alchymee of Purgatory , chiefely for two causes . The first bicause I declare how the auncient Panims and our priests after their example doe trauayle to extract the fifte essence of the soules which they melt in their furnaces of Purgatory . The other is , bicause from those furnaces our priests do drawe out the Philosophicall stone .

¶ For to enter then into the matter , Hillary beginneth , asking his companions of the Sermon which they heard .

¶ THE FIRST DIALOGVE which is called the Alchymee of Purgatorie . The Speakers . Hillarius . Eusebius . Theophilus . Thomas . HIllarius .

If mine eyes haue not deceiued mée , I thinke I saw you all thrée to day at the Sermon : wherefore I desire to know your opinions how the same pleased you , and what you thinke of the Preacher .

Eusebius .

As far as I can iudge , I thinke that he is very skilfull and cloquent : for he hath spoken very learnedly and deepely of matters so obscure and profounde .

Hillarius .

He could not speake more profoundly : For he hath pearced euen vnto the very centre of the earth : therfore I am the more abashed that he spake so cléerly of matters so obscure , and of these darke places no man euer saw ought . For the Sunne neuer shineth there .

Theophilus .

As far as I could perceiue by him , I thinke that eyther he hath not bene in those places of which he spake , or els if he were , it is long agoe . If the opinion of Isydore be true , we shall haue very small occasion to giue credite to this ghostly father and to his preachinge .

Eusebius .

Hath Isydore ben of an other opinion , then the rest of the Christian Doctors , touching this matter ?

Theophilus .

There is none among the Christians which doubteth that there is an hell , seeing that the holy Scripture rendereth so sure and vndoubtefull a testimony with the which we ought to content our selues , not willyng to know any Hell & hell fire Mat 5 c. 25. Mat. 18. 18 Ma●c●● 41. ●s●●6 g ●4 . ●ob . 10. d. 12 further , then it hath reuealed it vnto vs . It ought to suffice vs which Iesus Christ witnesseth vnto vs , that there is an hell of eternall & vnquenchable fire , where the worme dieth not , but wher ther is euerlasting horrour , weeping & gua hing of teeth : we need not to enquire of the place : for I thinke ther is none which desireth to go thether . And therfore we haue néede to praye vnto GOD , that it woulde please him to giue vs his grace to know his will , and to be able to accomplish it thorow his sonne Iesus Christ , to the ende we may auoide that hell fire and extreme darkenesse . We néede not much to stay to know in what place hell is , The bounds of hell The opinions of the Theologians Thom. in . 4. dist 42 art. 2. D. 1. Richard. 4. dist. 42. Plato in Phaedone . The opinion of Isydore . Io. maio . 4. Sent dist. 44. quest. 1. whether it is in the centre of the earth , according to the common opinion of the Doctors & of Plato , which saith , that it is in the depth of the earth : or whether it is vnder the earth in the country of the Antipodes , according to the opinion of Isydore , who sayth that after the day of iudgement , the Sunne and the Moone shall kéepe themselues so stedfaste in heauen that they shall no more tourne round about the earth , but giue their lyght and brightnesse , onely in that part of the world in the which we dwell , and that the damned shal be all sent away vnder the earth , into those horrible darkenesse , and into those places , in the which at this day , some men doe thinke , that the Antipodes doe dwell .

Hillarius .

If it were so that the Sunne and the Moone doth nowe shine there , wée maye thinke , that some one of the countrye of the Antipodes is come from thence , who hath declared and described to our Preacher the scituacion of hell , of Lymbo patrum , and of Purgatory , with al their confines in such sort and manner as he hath expounded them vnto vs .

Thomas .

You may saye what you will , and I will beléeue what pleaseth mée , but I cannot thinke that he was euer there , or that hée hath euer heard any one speake that came from thence , & hath so well visited all the places theroff . For neuer in my lyfe I hearde it better deuised . There is neyther hall , chamber nor closet , cole-panne , kitchin , nor seller , chimney nor pot-hangers , great caudron nor lyttle caudron , chaynes nor flesh-hookes and other insernall vtensills , but that he hath described and set them foorth so lyuely , as mée thinketh I sée the thinges before mine eyes in such sort , that yet I am afrayde when I thinke on them . The Cyrographers and Notaryes are very dilygent and curious for to expresse & declare in their instruments and writings the situacion & lymtis of houses and possessions of which they make writings off : But I haue not found any so skilfull and of such habilitie who can bound and lymitte so perfectly the landes , as our preacher to day hath lymitted and bounded out hell , Limbus patrum and Purgatory . As far as I can perceiue he knoweth in what clymate they are : how many degrées , miles The discription of hell and places the one is from the other : of what side they are all scituated and placed , whether they bée on the Cast , West , North or South .

Hillarius .

You take not the matter am●●se . But you must not be abashed , if he and such as he is , doe take so great paynes to bound and lymitte so perfectly those places , and chiefely Purgatorie : For they Purgatory and lus reuenues haue no better possession then this , which yéeldeth vnto them more profite and gaine , nor of which they receiue and gather vp more rents and reuenues . There is no realme , Lordship , lande nor heritage which bringeth more profite to their Lords & owners , then Purgatory doth bring vnto them . Wherefore it is no maruayle if they doe feare so much to loose it and that their bounds and lymits shoulde be transported or changed any other where . Ptolomus and many other wise and excellent Geographers are estéemed to be very well learned , aswell among the Greekes as the Latines . But I thinke that among all those , there is not one , which in his Geography hath at any time so wel painted and described the earth with all the parts thereoff , countryes and regions as this our Doctor hath described and drawen out before our eyes , these low parts and inseruall regions .

Thomas .

By that we may know , or at the least presume , that he speaketh not onely by heare say , but that he hath bene there in proper person , or ●ls hath had some expert teacher in that Geography . For I doe sée that the best Geographers and the most cumming Cosmographers doe faile oftentimes in the description of the earth , and of many countryes and regions which are most familier to vs , and of which they may haue greatest and most certeyne experience .

Hillarius .

Without séeking any further , we may try it in the French Cardes or Maps . There is not almost a country better knowne then Fraunce , neuerthelesse we sée oftentimes great errours in those Cardes in the which it is described . Wherefore wée may well thincke that it maye so chaunce in other tables , mappes , and cardes conteminge the description of heauen and earth and of the regions and countryes vnknowne .

Thomas .

I doubt not at all , but that this Monke hath the The inferuall mappes spirite for to compose and make a table and Mappe of these low countryes , better then the paynters haue paynted them out in the temples , or the Printers in the Shepheards Calenders . And therfore I desire very much to speke with him . For I haue taken in hande a iourney in the which he may helpe mée . For I hope that eyther he will shewe mee some good way , or els satisfie mée in such sorte that peraduenture I shall saue the iourney and charges .

Hillarius .

What voyage is that which you haue taken vppon you ? will you goe into Sicily ?

Thomas .

What to doe in Sicily ?

Hillarius .

To descend into hell : For I cannot vnderstand The descending into hell in Sicily . any other thing by your talke , forasmuch as you enquire after that Monke to accomplish and ende your voyage . I thinke you will haue him for your guyde , to conduct you in that daungerous voyage , euen as Circe ●uyded Vlysses Homer iodss . 1. & . 11. Virg. Aeneld . 6. Ouid Meta. li. 14. to bring him to the speach of Elpenor : and Sybilla Aeneas to conduct and bring him vnto the speache of his father Anchises .

Thomas .

I thinke you are eyther a Prophet or a Diuine : you haue hitte the na●●e on the hea●e , you haue not erred a whit from the matter . ●ut to what purpose speake you vnto mée of Sicily ? Is there any hauen , or any entrye , place , or denne , to descende into those infernall and obscure , horrible and most darkesome countryes .

Hillarius .

What meane you to make all this circumstance & questionings ? you make it so strange as though you had neuer heard it spoken off before . Ther is nothing more The Poeticall diuinitie . common in the Poeticall Theologie .

Thomas .

You alleage vnto mee a goodly diuinitie . I haue nothing to doe with the Poets , nor with their fables and faynings . Is it not well knowne , that they be inuented of pleasure , and there is no truth in them , but that they are most euident lyes .

Hillarius .

If you so lyttle esteeme the testimonye of the Poets , I thinke you will not despise altogether the The common witnesse . vulgar & common opinion which hath continued and endured so long time , and moreouer doth confirme it .

Thomas .

You bring mée into a faire land , and alleage vnto mée a testimony worthy of credite , for confirmation of the other , to set mée ouer vnto the common people : there is nothing more vnconstant , more foolish , more mutable , nor more ready to beléeue all lyes , fables and follyes ?

Hillarius .

I thinke that yet at the least wise you wil not reiect the testimony of that holy man Odillo , Abbot of the Monks Odilus Abbot of Cluny . of Cluny , and of many other Monkes very deuout , which haue followed him .

Thomas .

It may be that when I shall heare his opinion , eyther I will allow it or disallow it . What sayth hée ?

Hillarius .

Peter of Amiens hath written that in the time of Pope Iohn the viij . About a thousande Durant . ie Rat. dan o●fi . lib. 7. Rub. de offi. ●or . Polid. Virg. de inuent . reli . lib. 6. c. 9. Aetna called Gibello mount in ●icily . yeares after the death and passion of Iesus Christ , Odillo was in Sicily , and bicause that he heard oftentimes the noyse , cryes and bewaylings which were made continually , about that burning hill Aetna , called of the Italians at this day Gibello monte , did thinke it came from the Diuells lamenting that the soules of the faythfull deceased were deliuered from torments through the masses , vigiles , prayers , sacrifices and offrings of the Christians . And therfore he incontinent declared the same to his Monkes , and they all decréed together , that after they had offered their offerings the first day of Nouember , and celebrated the feaste The feast of the dead . Supple . Chron. lib. 2. Feralia Satra of Saints in the honour of all Saints , they would in lyke manner the next day beeing holyday make prayers and ●risons for the soules of all the faythfull deceased . Afterwarde in succession of time others receiued and allowed that manner of doing , as good and holy .

Thomas .

What Parentali● . reason had they to imagine that those cryes & mourninges came of the lamentations that the Diuels made ?

Hillarius .

I cannot vnderstand that it hath had any other reason or foundation then the Poets , and the common people , to thincke that there was a place there to descende into Hell in Sicile . hell , and the place in which the soules of the wicked were tormented for their sinnes , bicause that in that same mountaine there is a perpetuall fire which alwaies burneth , and Plini . li. 3. c. 2 hath done so of long time . Wherefore they haue thought that the damned were kept in those great burning goulfes . By this same reason was Odillo and his Monkes moued , and were the Authours , that the Christians gaue Anniuersaries . themselues to celebrate feastes , and make sacrifiees for the dead in the month of Nouember , euen as the heathen Romaines did commonly vse it in the month of February , by the Quid. Fast . li. 2 Liui. li. 1. dec . 1. institution & appointment of Numa Pompilius the second king of the Romaines . Al the reason that moued Odillo procéeded but of ignoraunce , for that he vnderstood not the cause whereof those gronings , noise and feareful cryes which he hearde in Sicily about that mountaine did arise . But imagined that it was the Diuels which haled and fore themselues by the haire , sorrowing with great despite that they sawe thesoules goe out of paines and tormentes . But his imagination hath brought no hurt to his couent , nor to all the other Monkes and Priestes . For that sanie day , is the best faire that they haue all the yeare , and a time in which they make haruest and vintage altogether , with not taking ouermuch paines . If the soules of the deceased haue as much gaine as they , they , may bée very ioyfull of the feast .

Thomas .

But I woulde gladly knowe , from whence those cryes and mourninges did procéede , whether they came Lu●r . li. 1. Hic Aetnea minantur . Murmura flam● marum rursum se colligere iras . from the Diuels , or from the soules of the dampned , or from those which are kept in Purgatory , or of some other naturall cause .

Hillarius .

The cause is easie to bée knowne of him who wyll vnderstande what is the situation and nature of the place . For of the one side is the 〈◊〉 ●u●ibus crap●es terum vt vis cuomatignes . Ad caelum qu● ferant flamai sulgur● rursum Clau. de rapt . proserpi . li. 1. Sil. li. 14. Diodo . li. 6. & . 16 Polib . li. 1 ●elli puni●● S●rabo . li. 6 roaringe of the Sea , which maketh an horrible noise , on the other side the greate goulfes of fire that arise and come out of the mounteyne . Wherefore when the vehement ▪ windes doe blowe , and enter violently into the holes and caues that are ▪ there , and mingle themselues wyth those vaines of brimstone kindled with that impetous fire , wée must not meruaile when all those thinges mixt and confused together , doe méete , if there are fearefull cryinges , and such which the Poet hath described , saying . Lo● here the hill that Aetna hight , most horrible to beholde Ouid Meta. li. 15 The discription of the hill Aetna . Thundring out and making cries , most terrible to be tolde . Which many times doth cast from it , of clowds that are ful darke , And also whirle winds that are great , with smoke that is ful black . And burning sparkes of fire did fly , and flames that are most great Which from the fire rose sodeinly , and toucht the heauenly seat . Which oftentimes doth vomit out , the bowels and the guts Of rockes and stones that are full hard , which in that hil ther lu●kes .

Thomas .

I doe then much doubte , if it bée euen so as you saye , but that the good Odillo was deceyued , and that hée , and all his Monkes haue greatly dreamed . The poeticall fable of Enceladus and of the other Gyrantes . Vir. an●d . li 3 Fama est E●●●ladi s●mustum flumine corpus Vigeri mole ha● , ingentemque insuper Aetnam impositam r●ptis flammam ex● pirare camini● . Et sessum quoti . ●s mutat l●●us intremere omnem . Murmure Trinacriam , & 〈◊〉〈…〉

Hillarius .

They haue at the least so much dreamed and those which haue beléeued their dreames , as they who stayinge themselues vppon the fables of Poets , haue thought that Enseladus , Briarnis and the other Gyauntes , were buried vnder that great and burning hil of Aetna , after that Iupiter destroyed them with lightning and ouerthrewe them vppon the mounteines that they had made for to ascend into heauen , when they warred agaynst him . For euen as they imagined that those fearefull and terrible Gyauntes were enclosed vnder that mounteyne , who remouinge themselues from the one side to the other , dyd cast and throwe foorth those great and daungerous ●●●tes , flaminge fyers , whoorlewindes and smoked : Those héere doe put the Dyuels in slée●e of the Gyants : And doe attribute vnto them that which the mounteyne doth naturallye . So as other dreamers and fo●●es haue done of the mounteine of Islande and Norwaye : of The mountains of Island and Norway . which they that haue written of those Regyons & Countryes , doe wytnesse that they are almost like vnto that hyll Aetna , and specially about the borders of Norwaye . For they say that there is there a mounteyne commonly called Hechelbergo enuironed with the Sea , the most horrible Hechelbergo . and fearefull that is in the worlde . And for to make the tale better and the thing more meruaylous , they saye also , that there are hearde the cryinges , wéepinges and lamentations of the soules which goe into Hell , insomuche as those horrible cryes and noyse are spreade and heard The crying of the damned . a myle rounde aboute . They adde moreouer that there are very great and meruaylous blacke Rauens & Crowes Rauens and hel crowes . which flye rounde about it makinge also horrible cryes , in such sort that they terrefie euery man that none bareth to approche nighe vnto that mounteine . Afterwards ; Fountaines of excessiue coldenesse and heate . ther ariseth out of the same two fountaines , whereof the one is of such vehement and excessiue coldenesse , and the other of such heate , that both of them are intollerable , and there is no Element howe colde or hotte soeuer it bée , but that they surmounte it , both in heate and coldenesse . And which is more in that same Countrey , towardes the South partes , as men saye , there is a place called Nadhegrin , in which the Dyuels of that Nadhegrin . visible d●uels . place doe appeare vnto men , whome they sée before their eyes hauing bodies of the ayre .

Thomas .

Odillo might haue had better occasion to haue situated Hell and Purgatory there , then in the hyll Aetna .

Hillarius .

It woulde haue had better , appearaunce , if those thinges were true . But if wée shoulde staye our selues vppon such dreames and lyes , wée myght also forge an other Hell and Purgatory in Scotland , in which The do●eful hil in Scotland . men say that there is a hill full of sorrow & very fearfull , by reason of the cryes of those that do wéepe and lament there . And in Thuringia there is a hill in which ther are heard Thuringia . most horrible noise & cryes : And that hath not onely the name to be frequented with Faunes & Satyres which are a kinde of Diuels , which many waies haue seduced the Panims . But also some do affirme that they haue séene the same by experience . And some writers & Authours accompted for men worthy of credite , haue written it .

Thomas .

There should bée then many Helles and Purgatories by that accompt . But bicause I feare very much , that there are great follies and lyes in those histories , I thincke that it shoulde bée most sure and expedient for mée , to take that way which I first purposed , then to take the way either in Sicily or in any of those places that you haue named vnto mée . For the way is not much frequented nor knowne as that is which I haue taken vppon mée , except you haue touched the one of the countries , whether I would goe .

Hillarius .

Whether haue you then enterprised to goe ?

Thomas .

I doe make mine accompt , to goe straight into Scotland or into Ireland .

Hillarius .

Is there any way to descend into these infernall Regions and countries ?

Thomas .

Haue you euer heard spoken of the voyage and Caues of Saint Patricke ? doe you not remember the bookes that we had at The voyage of sainct Patrickes purgatory . schoole when wée were little children ?

Hillarius .

You make me now remember the saying of my Graundfather . Were we not happy in those daies , that we had such bookes in our handes , in stéed of some good Authour , and of the Bible and holy Scriptures ? If wée consider well the vnhappinesse and misery of that time and barberousnesse and ignoraunce both of God and all good discipline which then possessed all the worlde , and compare it with the mercy which GOD at this presente doth vnto vs , wée haue good occasion to render vnto him thanckes . Dooe you thincke that that booke , wherein is described the voyage of Sainct Patricke and such other lyke , ful of fables , most sottishe and brutish , were méete to giue any good doctrine vnto children , and that the newe testament had not bene a better for them to haue in their handes ? Truely wée are in a good way , forasmuch as wée bée already come vnto Saincte Patricke .

Thomas .

You knowe that thys caue is in Ireland .

Hillatius .

Some place it in Ireland , and others in Scotland : It is all one to mee wheresoeuer it bée , for I will make no voyage thether .

Thomas .

It is all one also to mée . For those countries are not farre Scotland and Ireland . Erasmu●●●n ●hiliad . va 〈…〉 in Commentae . super pomp . mel . distant the one from the other : It is inough for mée , so that I may finde it . For that cause I haue determined to goe thether out of hand . But since I heard our Ghostly Father , I will not goe before I haue first spoken wyth him : and after I wyll rule my selfe according to the counsaile that he will giue mee .

Hillarius .

You doe either mocke or dreame ?

Thomas .

That is no countrey , whereof wée should mocke , forasmuch as all those that haue bene there haue lost their laughing and all reioysing .

Hillarius .

It is then lyke vnto the denne of Throphonius , which is in the country of Lebadia , of which the auncient To loose the laughter . writers haue written almost all after the same sort , as our dreamers haue done , of Sainct Patrickes hole or caue : and doubt not , but that the one fable hath engendred that other . Neuerthelesse Throphonius denne . Lebadia philos●r . ●●as . chil. 1. ce●t . 7. I doe not yet thincke that you speake in earnest .

Thomas .

You thinke that I am such a mocker as you are .

Hillarius .

If you bée not a mocker , you are then a dreamer .

Thomas .

I sléepe not whereby I should dreame .

Hillarius .

No more also did our ghostly Preacher sléepe to day : I neuer in all my life heard such an olde dreamer dreame and take on in such sort . I beléeue no other thing but that he hath studyed in the schoole of some olde doting witch full of lyings , from which hee brought this diuinitie .

Eusebius .

Are you not ashamed so to mock & speake against such a vertuous and learned man as he is .

Hillarius .

I know not what knowledge and learning he may haue : But this I may surely say , that I neuer heard any thing of him , whereby I might knowe that there is either knowledge or wisdome in him . If he had studyed in humaino letters , I should haue thought that he had read that hée preached either in the Poetries or verses of Homere or Virgil , or of Homer . odissi . 〈◊〉 . Virg. anaed . 6. plutar in comment . de dam. Socra . some other Poets , as wel Greeke as Latine : or in Plutarke . For I am sure that in those Theologies a man shal finde that matter altogether entreated off almost after that sort as he hath declared vnto vs , and chiefly in Plutarke who declareth Timarchus . most meruailous thinges , that Timarchus hath séene in the denne of Trophonius , which differ but a little from those which we haue heard of our Ghostly father . But I greatly feare that he neuer profited so much in Greeke neither in Latine , that he could euer haue read those authours , nor that he coulde haue dnderstoode them , if hée shoulde haue read them . But for to speake as I thincke , I rather The Shepheards Callender . Dantes . beléeue that he hath read it either in the Sepheardes Callender , or in Dantes . What age is hée off ?

Thomas .

Wherefore doe you demaund his age ?

Hillarius .

Bicause that if hée had lyued in the time of Alcestis and Protesilaus , either in the time of Hercules and Theseus , or in the time of Vlisses and Aeneas , whom the Poets doe witnesse & affirme to haue bene in hell , and that they haue visited all those countries and chambers , as well the Limbus patrum as Purgatory , and also those goodly and pleasaunt fieldes Eliseas , wée might presume and thincke that he hath spoken vnto them , and hath learned of them that Theology . But hée must bée then at the least more then a thousande and nine hundreth yeares olde , and that hée must Iohn . 12. b. 9 A sained fable vpon the historie of Lazarus after the imitation of the poets . bée twise so olde as Mathusala .

Thomas .

Haue wée not Lazarus whome Iesus Christ raised to lyfe who hath bene longe time after all those , who could tell what there is ? For thou canst not saye that the same is a fable as the others are ?

Hillarius .

Yet the Ghostly Father could not haue spoken vnto him , except hée were at the least more then fiftene hundreth yeares olde . I doe not denie his resurrection , but I doe denie all those lyings which are added vnto the history of the Gospell .

Thomas .

Could he not very well haue heard it of those who through longe succession haue learned and vnderstanded it of those who haue hearde it of Lazarus .

Hillarius .

Héere are a great many of héeresaies , I would gladly knowe who was the first , vnto whom Lazarus declared it , and whether Lazarus hath spoken more amply then Iesus Christ and all his Prophets and Apostles . Doe wée not plainely sée howe wée doe ieste with God , tourning his woorkes and miracles into fables , and Poets inuentions ? Could the enemies of our Religion do more ? Doe not these olde dreamers who haue dreamed and inuented out such fables , make of Lazarus an other Alcestis , Theseus , Vlisses or Aeneas who are come from hell , for to declare what is done there ? To what other end doo all th●s● inuentions and fabulous narrations of olde fooles serue . But for to call into doubt Gods truth , and for to giue occasion vnto the mockers and contemners of God and of his woord , to laugh and make a scoffe of the Christian Religion , and the Doctrine of the Gospell . As Pithagoras , Lucrecia , Lucian and many others haue scoffed at the Ouid Me● . 15 fables and inuentions of the Poets , touching their Hell , and of the vaine credulitie and great foolishnesse of the ignorant people , who gaue credit vnto them . As we haue done to the dreames of those Caphards and ●oltes , who would make so many partes of the infernall Regions , as the Cosmographers haue made of the earth . For as they haue deuyded The diuision of the insernal Cosmographie . it into Asia , Africa and Europa : Euen so haue those deuided the infernal habitations into the Limbus patrum , Purgatory , & the hell of the dampned . And haue made all those countryes inhabited , and so full of people that there is not one little corner nor angle , but that all is full , chiefly in purgatory , if we will beléeue our Priestes and Monkes . For the soules goe thether dayly by thousandes .

Theophilus .

Our Lord Iesus Christ raised not Lazarus , nor the others , whom he hath called from death to lyfe , for to holde & kéepe men by such mockeryes , and for to make the worde of GOD lyke vnto the woorke of Poetes . For his simplicitie , grauitie , nor yet hys maiestye , can beare and suffer it . It sufficeth hym to teache I● sufficeth to know of Hell. vs that there is a Hell , and wée ought to contente our selues therewith , without enquiringe where it is , nor what it is . For those who through the iust iudgement of God shall bée there condemned , shall knowe it by prouing and féeling it to soone , and more then they would . The elect and blessed who through Iesus Christ are delyuered , study not to know any further , then God hath reuealed vnto them , that they haue felt it in their consciences , when they haue offended , and that they haue bene grieued and pressed downe with the féeling of their sinnes .

Hillarius .

What will you say if this Ghostly father be one Transmigration of pythagora● . of Pithagoras Disciples , and of that same opinion ? and that , the soule of euery one of them , whom of late the Poets doe witnesse to be descended into hel , were entered into his body , insomuch that he was one of the very same ?

Theophilus .

Wée might very well haue thought no lesse , in hearing these dreames and lyes : But that wée knewe for certein that the opinion of Pithagoras is false ( although that many among the Iewes are yet dronken therewith ) & that the same which the Poets and Monkes haue inuented are nothing els but dreames and lyings . But yet although our Monke were some Theseus , Vlisses or Pithagoras , yet he might very well be deceiued . For sithence that those The ●yre begun in purgatory . were in those regions and countryes , the fire hath begun there to kindle , which hath burned all the wals of those dyuerse habitations and infernall chambers , forged , made and builded first by the Poets , and after wards by the Monkes and Priests , insomuch that there remained neither Limbus patrum , or yet Purgatory , but Hell onely , where that inextinguible fire is .

Thomas .

Y●u do speake of the Limbus patrum and of Purgatory , as though ther were none , & that the same that hath bene preached vnto vs , was inuented of pleasure , & that they were but fables . But doth not the Scripture make mention of it ? do you thinke that so many good prechers which haue ben in times past would haue taught such things , if they had not be● true ?

Theophilus .

I haue heard many preach that the children that are borne dead , The children borne dead . & all those which do die before t●ey be baptized , go straight way vnto the Lymbus patrum wherein they haue their chambers aparte , seperated from hell and Purgatory , and that they shall neuer enter into Paradise , but that they shall be depriued for euer from the ioyes theroff . Afterwards there was nothing that I heard so much commended in the sermons , as the soules of Purgatory , vnto whom also they giue chambers apart , and doe kéepe them as prisoners , in those dungeons and prisons , vntill such time as they haue The prisoners of P●rgatory . payd their raunsome .

Eusebius .

Doe you not stedfastly beléeue that the same is true , that ther is a Lymbe and a Purgatory ?

Theophilus .

I would beléeue it without any doubt or contradiction , if I had read it aswell in the olde Plato in gorgia & phaedone pl●t●r . in comde dam. and new testament , as in the bookes of Plato and of Plutarch and such other which were of the same opinion .

Hillarius .

You ought yet to haue added amonge the Greeke Poets Orpheus , and Homere and Virgile among the Latine Poets : who haue so well described the Lymbe , hell , Purgatory , and the Popes paradise , that I thinke it is not possible to paynt and set them out better . And I cannot beléeue but that he was inspired with the same spirite by The spirite , the Authour of pgatory . which they haue spoken who haue forged and inuented vnto vs those Lymbes and Purgatoryes , and with which those were inspired , who did sit in the Councells in which such doctrine was allowed and confirmed : peraduenture he may finde some thing in the discription of Virgile which may seeme a lyttle to differ from the Popes Theologie : But notwithstanding if the matters are wel examined and tryed , one cannot finde so great errours , that for them hée may be iudged an hereticke in the Popes church , nor yet repugnance which is not more easie to agrée , then to make Scotus and Thomas Aquinas to agrée together : the Reals The Limbe wher the children are and No●●alls , the Sophistes and Doctors questionaries that be among them .

But for to proue it , giue eare what the Poet speaketh ●n such sort as I may speake in our propre tongue : And for to begin in order I wil recite vnt● thee first the ●escription of t●e ●●mbe● ●here the children are , saying . Anone were voyces heard , and piteous cryes , and waylings sh●●ll Virg. A●●t . 6 Of soules of tender babes , and infants weeping voyde of skill . That plesure sweet of life did neuer tast , but from their brest Vntimely death them tooke , and Fortune grim hath down opprest .

He giueth vnto the lyttle children their chamber apart , and appoynteth their dwelling at the entring in of hell , the which he describeth more horrible and fearefull , saying . Yet syts a worse v●ithin , Than hell it selfe that sinke-hole s●eepe , Two times as broad descends , two times as headlong down right deep Hell. A●●c . li 6 As heauen vpright is hye , if men thereto from thence might peepe .

Ouer and besides these two places , he addeth yet two others , to wéete , Purgatory , and the fieldes E●seas , of which we will speake off héereafter when his tourne commeth . Now al these which are lodged in those diuers chambers , are handled euery one of them according to their merites , and punished after diuers sorts . For the torments and paynes are giuen vnto them eyther more grieu●ns and cruel , or els more tollerable & gentle , according to ●uery ones mirites and desertes . He putteth and placeth a large prison , déepe , and darke , horrible and fearefull , in the most lowest part of hell , from which those shall neuer depart which once haue bene throwne therein . That prison is the very hell it selfe , wherein the great and most grieuous sinnes and offences are punished , and that they are ●●sanable and can by no meanes be purged , as these : sacriledge , murder , tyranny , vyolences , erecrable whoredome , and such other crimes , and chiefely those of the Tyrants , Kings , Princes and Lords , whom Plato of which In Gorgia . the sins of the princ●s and tyrants . proceeded this Philosoph●e , lodged all in hell , if in sléede to be good Princes and Pastours , they haue bene tyrants , and the deuourers of the people .

Thomas .

I doe already héere perceiue a great agreeing with our Priests and Monkes . As concerning the Lymbes of the lyttle children , there is no more difference , but that Virgile putteth them all there , and our priests doe not lodge & put but those which are dead without being baptized .

Hillarius .

He is not so rude and vngentle vnto them . For he depriueth them not of all ioy and consolation , as these our priests do the poore little children of the Christians .

Thomas .

As touching hell I doe not much mistyke the opinion of Plato . First bicause it approcheth nigh to the veritie of the holy Scriptures , and that he declareth the iust iudgement of God vppon the tyrants . For it is good reason , sith that there is none who may chastice & correct them in this world , and that they will not be in subiection neyther to God nor man , but do what they list , they should haue double punishment in the other world : And that they should vomitte and spew vp agayne their great cruelties , vyolences , and great enormities that they haue committed , bicause they feared neyther iustice nor punishment .

Theophilus .

Although that the witnesse of the holy Scriptures is sufficient for vs , yet this ought further to moue vs , & to confound the Infidlls when The ver●●e of . the tru●● . we doe see the vertue of the truth to be so puissaunt and of such force that it constrayneth Philosophers , Poets and others , who haue bene ignorant of the knowledge of God , to confesse it and to beare witnesse thereoff .

Thomas .

But me thinkes that our Priests and Monks do much differ from Plato & Virgile in that they do lodge the richest people and the great Princes and Lords sooner in Purgatory then in Hel.

Hillarius .

Do you not know the cause ? The riches of Purgatory . There came no profite vnto Plato nor Virgile of the Purgatory , as commeth vnto those , & beléeue that although they had any profite , they were of a better conscience , and that for their owne perticuler gayne they would not haue so seduced the poore ignorant people . For they do shew foorth by their writings , that they had a certeyne feare and knowledge of God , more then we may acknowledge in these our priestes . For they watche after the deade bodyes , as Plato and Virgle . the Rauens doe vppon carrion . And if they can méete with any dead man that hath his purse well stuffed with money , wherewith hée is able to paye his raunsome , they will be sure to make him tell who hath eaten the fat , they will put him in such a place , from whence hee cannot come out before they haue taken some fat from him . For they are the tyrants of tyrants and the pillers of the great The tyrants of tyrants , and the pillers of the vsarers . pillers and Vsurers , whom they will not suffer to be broiled and tormented of the Diuells , but they will be their hangmen themselues , take away that office from them to whom God hath giuen it .

Thomas .

They shal be then much tormented by this accompt . For they shal be cruelly handled in this world , and also in the other after their death , as they haue vexed b tormented the worlde whilst they were alyue . And suffer them not notwithstanding to fall into the hands of the Diuells . But I would gladly know what payne the other haue that haue committed smaller sinnes .

Hillarius .

Plato and Virgile do lodge these in Purgatory , The Purgatory of Plato . In Gorgia . plutar . desera . muni . vind. The synnes of the simple people . The synnes of princes . especially the simple people & which haue not bene of great credite and authoritie . Wherefore they could not haue so great lycence to doe euill as the others . And if they had committed any fault , they had not the power so much to hurt the people as the others had . For the sinnes of the Princes doe not hurt onely themselues : But as well by them as by their euill example they doe hurte and destroye all the worlde , where the simple people doe hurt but themselues . And therefore they did thinke that their sins were sanable , and that they might be purged . For that cause , they condemned them not vnto eternall dampuation : For The differences of synnes and the diuersitie of the estates of those that be dead they thought that they had not committed euils inough for to be damned , & that ther was some remedie to be healed . Also they lodged them not at the first dash in the fields of bliseas , as the other great and vertuous men , who thorowe their vertue haue merited to be incontinently receiued into blessednesse and toye , or in the number of Gods.

Thomas .

Those then which were good people , and which had not the power to doe so euill as the other , doe go into Purgatory against their wils . Neuertheles I am sure that God will not held them excused therfore . For ●e regardeth the heart , will and the affections , and not onely the workes as the Philosophers doe . Our priests differ not much from that opinion . For they Cannonise & lodge among the Saints Cnnonizacion of the Saints . Extra . de . cele . miss. 13. q. 2. Tempus . those whome they doe iudge to haue bene most vertuous and holyest and the soules perfectly good , the which doe fly straight into heauen , and haue no néede of our good déedes .

Hillarius .

That is to wéete the most greatest Hypocrites , superstitious and Idolaters , & those which haue done most for them , and that haue best nourished and fed their fat bellyes .

Thomas .

They doe lodge in Purgatory those who haue not accomplished héere their penaunce , which neuerthelesse dyed confessed and repentaunt , or which do not carry deadly sinne with them , but onely veniall sinnes , the which may be purged by the fire . For there is some remedy for those .

Hillarius .

Such is their doctrine : But notwithstanding when it commeth to triall , they neyther haue regarde to mortall nor yet veniall sinnes , but sooner to the riches or to the pouertie . It is all one with them whether the sinnes be mortall or veniall , sanable or insanable , so that the dead hath wherewith to paye their drougs & medicines , & money for his raunsome , and letters of grace that they make for them by their buls and pardons . And as touching the poore , of whome they haue no profite , it is to them all one whether they go , be it into Paradise , Hell , or Purgatory . For they haue no care of the soules , but onely of their purses .

Thomas .

I haue yet one thing to demaunde of thée . Doe they say that there is fire in the Poets Purgatory as there is in that of the priests ?

Hillarius .

It séemeth to mée that the Poets are a lyttle more reasonable and more merciful then the priests and Monks . For they make not such broyling and rosting of the poore soules .

Thomas .

How then ?

Hillarius .

Bicause that they haue assigned the payne a little easier and lyghter , according to euery ones misdéedes . For they condempne not all generally to the fire . But they do make thrée differences , The differences of synnes and the diuerlitie of the paynes . according to the greatnesse and smalnesse of sinnes . Those that haue sinned most grieuously , and which are most full and stuffe● with sinnes , and which are most earthly and most hardest to be purged , béeing so harde glewed and tyed to the soule , that it cannot be pluckt away , nor made cleane by no meanes but thorow the fire , are put and cast into the hot furnace . For they must be melted all new agayne . The other that are not altogether so filthy & vile and that haue not their sinnes so glewed in the soule that one cannot pul them away , are holden for a certeine time within the great goulfes of water , for to be there washed and made cleane . Ther are yet others that are lesse faultie and guyltie , & which haue committed but certeyne small sins , that hath no neede of such strong purgation . And therefore they are hanged but a lyttle in the ayre for to winde them . For they néede but to haue a lytle winde for to blowe away the dust that The diuersitie of purgations cleaueth fast to the soule , bicause of the coniunction that it hath with his body and his fleshe .

Thomas .

As farre as I perceiue they doe with the soules in that Purgatorye as we doe with our apparayle , sheetes , vessell and mettall . For when we haue any clothes , or shéetes that are dustie , or whereof we doubt the Moths and Wormes : we stretch them abroad and hang them vppon a pearch in the ayre for to winde and cleane them . And if ther be any spot or staine that will not easely come out , we wash them with water . And if that sufficeth not , we sope them , or put them in the bucke and bucke them , or els delyuer them to the scourers for to take out the steyne . Also if we haue mettall that is rusty and canckred & which hath néede to be made cleane , we cast it in the fire , which maketh it very cleane and consumeth the drosse and rust and other false mettall , and seperateth it from the pure and fine mettall .

Hillarius .

Thereby you maye knowe that the Poets haue had more witte and reason and better colour so to do then the Priestes . For they haue considered the nature of the sinnes , and of the sinners together , as a good Phisition The Phisicions of the soule . doth behold the completion of those that are sicke , for to giue vnto euery one a conuenient and sit remedy for his disease .

For they haue regarde that mans bodye was made of the foure Elements , and that the completion and the affections of man doe follow the temperatnesse of the body , and the nature of the elements , of which they were made . Forasmuch then as the body is the house and habitacion of the soule , & that the soule hath bene holden within that earthly body as in a prison , and darke dungeon , it is impossible , but that it is corrupted and defiled with the filthinesse of that infectious body , as he which shall depart out of an infectious and stincking prison . And therefore Plato and the other Philosophers and Poets , which followed his opinion , haue thought , that the soules had néede of some purgation , after that they were seperated from the body , bicause that after their departing , it was impossible but that they should carry with them and kéepe some filthinesse of that corrupt flesh , bicause of the coniunction , conuersation and familiaritie , that they had together . Neuerthelesse bicause that the bodyes are not all of one complexion , but according to the disposition and temperatenesse of the elements , of which they are made , some are more earthely and other some more heauenly , & according to the doctrine that they haue receiued , and the exercise that they haue had in vertue , some more vicious or vertuous then the others : Euen so haue they estéemed and thought that the soules did differ , according to the difference of the bodies from which they came out . They haue then considered that there are some sinnes that are more thin , easie & lighter then others , holding more of the nature of the ayre , and of the winde , then of the earth . And therefore they must purge them by the element , which approcheth néerest to their nature , and which séemeth for them the best remedie .

The others that are more heauy and wayghtie , as the water is more heauyer and wayghtyer then the ayre and winde , are washed in the water : For they doe holde most of the nature of the water . And therefore they put them in the bucke , wherein they driue , beat and wash them very cleane .

Besides those there are other more wayghtyer and heauyer and altogether earthlye , whome neyther the wynd● nor the water can make cleane . And therfore the Soules that haue ben so defiled with the filthinesse of their vile & wicked body , & so much giuen vnto the pleasures of the body , that they are almost degenerated & become earthly , are purged by the fire . For thei haue néede of a hotter & stronger element for to purifie them , and for to consume all filthe and drosse , that there remayne nothing but the pure mettall of the celestiall nature . For contraries are healed by contraries . But least you should thinke that I am the authour and inuentour of that Philosophie , and that I speake these thinges of mine owne head and for my profite , behold how the Poet speaketh , in whose verses you shal finde comprised in few words a great part of that Platonicall & Plutarchall Theologie , where he writeth of the soules seperated from the body after this manner .

MOreouer , when their end of lyfe , and lyght doth them forsake . Virg. Aene. 6. Purgatory . Yet can they not their sins , nor sorrows all poore souls of shake . Nor all contagions fleshly , from them voydes , but must of neede Much things cogēdred long , by wondrous means at last out spread . Therefore they plagued bene , and for their former faults and sins Their sundry paynes they bide , som hye in ayre doth hang on pins . Some fleeting bene in flouds , & deepe in gulfs themselues they tire Till sinnes away be washt , or cleansed cleere with purging fire . Each one of vs our penaunce heere abydes , then sent we bee To Paradise at last , we few fields of ioy doe see . The fields ●liseas . Till compasse long of time , by perfect course hath purged quite , Our former cloddred spots , and pure hath left our ghostly spirite And sences pure of soule , and simple sparkes of heauenly lyght . Thomas .

I doe thinke that the Alcumistes haue taken theire foundacion vppon that Philosophie● . For that is the true manner for to extract the fifte essence . But I thinke that those Phisiciens of the soules had néede to sée their vrine for to make them better know their complexion , and to giue vnto them the medicine and purgation méete for the same .

Hill●●ins .

It should be then néedefull that the Soules that are in Hell and in Purgatorye shoulde aswell haue , Esculapius or Cosme and Daiman for their Phisitious , as the Gods and Saints haue in heauen , and by a The phisitions and paticaries of hell . better reason . For the Gods and the Saints haue no more néede neither of medicine nor of purgation as the poore soules haue that are kept in Purgatory . I know not how the auncient Poets and Painims haue gyuen vnto Mercury the office of Phisicke , for to practice his medicines in Mercury . Hell , with which hée guideth the soules , for to make them to passe ouer the floudes by Charon the ferry man : For he had bene very méete and proper for the soules .

Thomas .

But when they shall haue a Phisition , who shall bée their Poticary , for to make their drouges ?

Hillarius .

The Priestes , which haue their shops full , The purging drougs of the panims . and are better furnished with them then euer the Panims were , which had chiefly thrée sortes of drougs , for the purgacions as well of the quicke as the dead , the which Ouid hath comprehended in thrée woordes , saying : Three times the olde man washed was , with Water faire & cleere Ouid. And with hot fire and Sulphur strong , he purged doth appeare .

Besides these purgations of the water , fire , & brimstone , Cuperent lustrari si qua darentur Sulphura cum t● di● , a u● si sores humida laurus . they had also their holy winnowinges or faminges , which they vsed chiefly at the feastes and sacrifices of God Baccus , the which they made with a fanne consecrated for that pourpose .

Theophilus .

Beholde the dreamings wherein men doe fall , yea the most wisest , when they gyue themselues The holy fannings of Baccus to play the Philosopher with heauenly things after their owne fantasie and minde without the spirite of God , and that they doe séeke the purgation of their sinnes in their purgatories , besides Iesus Christ .

Thomas .

Mée thinckes that wée doe yet reteine almost all those customes . For wée doe light and offer torches , tapers and candels of Waxe , as well for the dead , as for those that are aliue . And the first thing that we must haue , when one dyeth , are the torches to leade hym to hye graue . And all the yeare after wée must haue Candels lighted vpon his Sepulcher , and after to offer them vnto The torches & lights at the burials . the Priestes .

Hillarius .

It is bicause they sée not .

Thomas .

Whom do you meane ? the Priests or those that bée dead ?

Hillarius .

Both the one & the other . We cannot deny but that the dead bodyes haue lost their sight , & that they are in darkenesse , as touching their body . But neuerthelesse the shining and brightnesse of the torches Virg. Cassum lumine lugent . serueth them to no pourpose . I thincke also that the soule hath no neede of them . For if it goe into Paradise , it hath the Angels to carry it thether , as the soule of Lazarus was carryed by the Angels into Abrahams bosome . For that Luc. 16. 2. 〈◊〉 hath light inough and the Angels also wyth the brightnesse of God . Wherefore they haue not to doe wyth our light , that cannot serue for the soule , but for the body onely . If the soule goe into hell , there are guides inough for to bring it thether , and it is not nowe necessary that we do giue light to it . It hath the Angels of Sathan altogether contrarie to the other Angels to carry it thether .

Thomas .

But if it go into Purgatory , for that it is so déep , hath it no néede of light for to conduct them through those darke places ?

Hillarius .

If that which they saye bée true , there is fire inough , without putting any more vnto it . And if that fire bée not sufficient for them , I thincke that the light of our torches cannot giue light there . For if the Sunne beames and his brightnesse cannot enter and pearce through , what may wée hope of our fire ? You may then vnderstande by these reasons that all these lights serue nothinge at all for the dead , nor profite them , neither for the body nor yet the soule . It must be then that they doe profite the Priestes , or els it is a lost labour . But wherein can they serue for them ? For if they bee blinde , and that the Sunne light helpeth them not , no more shall they see by the illumination of the torches and candels . If they doe see cléere inough , they haue no néede : for the cléerenesse of the Sunne ought to suffice them : except they buryed them in the nyght , as the Panims dyd bury the poore that had not money to pay for their funerall pompe .

Thomas .

It must then bée that they are eyther madde The burying of the poore in the night . & out of their wyt , or els that they would shew by the same , that those that do such things are fooles and depriued of all vnderstanding .

Hillarius .

I thincke that they would do In Apotheg . Diogenes . as Diogenes did , who at noone dayes lighted a candle , and did séeke for men in the middle of the Market wyth a lanterne .

Thomas .

To what pourpose dyd hée the same ?

Hillarius .

For to make men to vnderstande , that they were beastes wythout reason and vnderstanding , and that hée had much a doe to finde men , that is to saye , wyse men , both of wit and iudgement , although hée sought them with a lanterns . Should hée not haue more occasion to doe the same nowe at this present time ? For to what ende do all those lights serue , but for to declare that we are the successours The imitacion of the Panims . of the Panims who after the same sort vsed torches , and candels at the burials and funerals of their dead ? For we haue not read in all the holy Scriptures that euer the true seruauntes of God haue lighted candels for the dead . Nor that they were euer in such superstition . Also we néed not to doubt but that the holy Water wherewith wée The holy water . sprinkle the graues of the dead , is also taken of the immitation of the Panims .

Theophilus .

I doubt it not . It is very true , that the auncient The baptismes . and washinges of the ●hvish people Leuit. 16. c. Nomb. 19. a. 4 Heb. 9. d. 13. people of God had certeine washings & certeine baptismes , for their purifications : not that they did thinck that the filthinesse and vncleanenesse of the soule & conscience , could be washed & made cleane , by the water & corruptible Elements . For sith that the soule is a spirit , it must haue a spirituall purgation , agreeing to his nature , and not corporall .

Thomas .

What profit then do they receiue of such ceremonies ?

Theophilus .

They did the same for to testifie & witnesse that they were sinners , polluted & vncleane , and that they had need of a purgation , the which they could not finde in themselues , but muste séeke it of others . Forasmuch then as they acknowledge themselues sinners , and in makinge open confession by those exteriour and outwarde washings , and do witnesse that the bloude of Iesus Christ was necessarie for them for the washinge awaye of their sins , they pleased by that obedience and confession , God , and by the faith that they had in Iesus Christ , ●figured by those ceremonies and sacramentes , whom they did looke for to bée their Sauiour . They did truely communicate the bloud of Iesus , which for them ought to haue bene shed , as wée doe by the baptisme , sauing but that wée had all things more excellent then they . But wée doe not finde that they euer baptized the dead , nor sprinkled their Sepulchres with coniured Water .

Hillarius .

Wée reade that the heathen Priestes vsed in their purgations , the water of the sea , with which they sprinckled that which they would purge : Proclus de sacrif . & mag. Salt water . The propertie of Salt. Of which Proclus that noble Philosopher the Platonist yeldeth the reason , saying that such water hath the propertie to purge , bicause it is salt , and that the salt hath in it some portion of the fire , and holdeth somewhat of his Nature . That same maketh mée to thincke that our Priestes for that same cause dyd put salte in their holy Water . For before they dyd coniure the Water , they dyd first coniure the salte , and after dyd put it into the Water .

Thomas .

They dyd it after the example of Eliseus .

Theophilus .

But Eliseus dyd not cast the salt into the The exemple of Eliseus . 4. Reg. 2. d. 21 De consecr. dast . 3. cap. Aquam . water , for to coniure the Diuels there wyth , but hath done it for to purge and make it cleane , bicause that it was infected and poisoned , so much that none could drincke of it . And notwithstanding that Eliseus dyd put salte in it , yet neuerthelesse the salt of his nature had not the propertie to correct and amend the corruption of the Water , if the vertue of God had not wrought and done it nuraculously : As it is declared by the applications of the thinges , which Iesus The spittle of Iesus Christ . Mar. 7. d. 3● Christ vsed , as in putting the spittle vpon the tongues of those that were dumme , for to make them speake : or vpon the eyes of the blinde , for to make them see : or wythin Iohn . 9. a , 6 the eares of those that were deafe for to make them heare : not bicause that hée coulde not dooe that wythout suche applications , as hée hath very well declared in a The applications of Iesus Christ . great many other of his woorkes : For howe oftentimes hath hée healed them in touching them onely , either by ●at. 6. a 3 Mat. 9 〈…〉 Mar. 5. c. 29 the hand , as the leapers , or by the gowne , as the woman which was diseased with the issue of bloude , and others , without either séeing or touching them , as the son of the Centurion : Mat. 8. a. 5 But euen as thereby hée woulde declare that al procéeded from his vertue and power , & not of the creatures . Also sometime hée vsed them for to let vs to vnderstande , that when hée woulde they shoulde serue , hée gaue them such vertue and propertie as it pleaseth him , & for to learne vs that wée ought not to despise the meanes that hée hath The meanes of God . gyuen vnto vs , how vile soeuer our reason iudgeth them to bée . For whatsoeuer they may bée , so that hee hath ordeined them , and that wée haue hys promise , wée muste not doubt but by them hée doth that which hée hath promysed . Therefore hée hath taken thinges , which had not of their owne nature the vertue to bringe to passe those effectes , to whiche they haue bene applyed , that all men might knowe , that from hym onely procéeded the vertue , and not of any ordinary or naturall cause . But these miraculous woorkes , are nothinge at all lyke vnto those which our Priestes doe : and theire ceremonies , haue not such promises . If by that they could remedy she corrupt waters , as Eliseus did , we will acknowledge the gyft to woorke myracles to bée in them which was in Eliseus . But to what ende serueth the salt in the water ?

Hillarius .

To what ende serueth it to bée put into the Infants salted . The salt in the Baptisme . mouthes of the little children , when they baptize them ?

Theophilus .

As much as their spittle profited the infants béeing put into their mouthes , vppon the tongue and vppon the eares .

Hillarius .

Mée thinckes that I doe see Apes , which would counterfet al the woorkes of Iesus Christ : Apes that counterfet Iesus Christ . At the least wise all their dooings are as those of the Apes , which doth but little and yet euill . If they could by their spittle make the little children and those that are dumme The spittle of the Priestes . speake : or make the blinde sée , and the deafe heare , I would counsaile them to vse it often : But if I had a little childe , I would not haue that such swinish & pockie Merchaunts as are among them should breath ouer his face , nor put their spittle in his mouth . They doe call their salt , the salt of wisdome : And in stéed to season vs & to make vs wise through the salt of the woord of God : They salt vs in the throat at The salt of wisdome . Accipe sal sapientiae . The salt of gods word . The salt of the priestes . the baptisme . I thincke that they feared that the wine would not abide drincking , & that we should not be good bibbers . Wherefore they would season vs in good time . I beléeue that they greatly feared least we should become Turkes , and least we should cast vp the wine , if they salted not wel the throate , as men doe vnto their shéepe . If they coulde with their salt make the fooles to become wise , I woulde The seasoning of fooles . thinck it good to salt al the foolish people as men do salt the fat larde , throughout all the body not onely in the throat .

Thomas .

I would not giue the counsaile . For then the salt would ware very déere , if Saloman hath said true , wryting , Eccle. 1. that the number of the fooles are infinit . Hlilarius . Thy reason is good . For the inconuenience which thou speakest off would follow , and an other more greater : To wéet , that S. Maturyn who healed the fooles , should loose his occupation : Besios that I beléeue that the salt , although there Sainct Ma●●in . be great quantitie & store of it , wil not much profit the soules when the Priestes doe mingle them with the Water . For the disease is very incurable . But for to retourne to our Priests , I doo beléeue that of that salt & Water , they would make such potage for the soules , as my Mother did potage for the soules . once make for hir selfe & for me & my little brother which were not much aboue twelue or xiij . yeares of age , without putting into it eitheir Oile or Butter , bicause that she would haue vs to fast with hir with bread & water : For if ther had bene any fatnesse in the broth or potage , it had not bene a perfect fast . If it bée so , our Priests on this side the sea , which dwell farre from it , should haue better coulour & cause to salt & season the water , then those that dwell hard by it . For if they would make potage for the soules , they shall finde inough of such sodden Water in the sea , & they shall not néede to seeke after the example of Eliseus for to make him their Authour : For he was neuer such a Cooke : But Alexander . 1 the first inuentour of holy water . they must giue the honour of that inuention vnto Pope Alexander the first of that name . For if they will purge the dead through water , I woulde gyue them counsaile rather platine in vit. Alex. 1. de consecra . dist. 3 cap. aquam . The bathes of the dead . to wash them altogether with hotte Water , as the Panims dyd theirs , and call that washing the last bath or washing , euen as our Priests doo call their last an cling or vnction , the latter Sacrament : In which they doe héerein differ from the Panims , that they anoynted men a lyttle before they dye , & the Panims anointed them afterwardes . Wherefore their vnction was a little more latter . But least you should thincke that I speake wythout authoritie , as many Diuines and Preachers doe , when they doo preache their owne fables and dreames , I will bring out first for mine Authours that auncient Poet Ennius , saying . Ennius . When death with dreadfull dart , bereft , king Tarquin of his life His body washt and nointed was , by handes of his owne wife .

And Virgile speakinge of the burninge of Misenus , sayth : Some brought the Water warme , in Caudrons hot they set in flowre Virg. Aene. 6 The body colde they wash , a precious ointment on they powre .

If the water could any thing profite the deade , it were better to make for them a great bath , & to plunge all their body , in a great tub of Water , and to wash them well for a good space , then to sprinckle them so little . For me séemeth that that manner of dooing is more proper for to kindle the fire of Purgatory , if the Water doth descend thether , then for to quench it . And the same I wyll proue by authoritie and by examdle . I wyll first proue it by the authoritie of many good Phisitions , which say that when a man is very drie for want of drincke , it is better for him to drincke a good draught at once then to sippe often : For that same doth not quenche the heate that is in the body , but kindleth it the more . And to the ende that The examples of the Smithes . it doe not séeme that they speake that wythout reason , they doe also alleadge the example of the Smythes , the which I will bring foorth for my seconde argument , which is infallible , inasmuch as it is alwayes confirmed by experience . For wée sée that when they woulde haue their To what ende serueth the washing of the deade bodies . coales burne well , and to giue great heat they sprinckle them with water , which they haue alwayes ready , wyth a little sprinckle or besome , as the Priestes haue them in their holy water stocke . There is yet an other reason , for which I doe finde the manner of the Panims better and more lowable , bicause that at the leastwise that shall serue for the dead , for to proue whether they bée dead or not : For it Those that are aliue reputed to be dead . chaunceth oftentimes through some disease , that the spirite is so locked and enclosed in the body , that man loseth altogether his breath , in such sort that one can by no meanes perceiue it , but iudgeth him to bée dead , and so hée is deceiued . By that meanes sometimes some haue bene buryed quicke : The which thing ought very much to bée feared in all suffocations and chokings , and chiefly of the matrice Suffocations . of women , and also in the time of the pestilence or plague : wherein many times it hath bene found that they The time of pestilence . haue brought to bée buryed those who were found aliue . Wherefore it is not méete to bury any dead body to sodeine , especially when hée dyeth sodeinly . For that may very well sometime happen vnto man , which we haue proued in some beastes , namely in the Dormouse , which haue bene The Dormouse . found so fast of sléepe in the Winter , that it is not possible to awake them : As it hath ben many times proued in some of them , who although they were cut a sunder in the middle did not wag nor stur vntill such time as they are put into hot sething water . And to that ende and pourpose many Plini . Nat hist. li. 7. cap. 52. Val. Max. li. 1. cap. 8 A. Auiola L. Lam●a . Historiographers and namely Pliny maketh mention of one Attilius Auiola , & Lucius Lamia , that after that their bodies were cast vpon the woode for to be burned after the custome of the auncient Romaines , did stand right vp when they felt the heate of the fire , and there taried stil . For none could succour & helpe them bicause the fire was kindled about them , but were burned all aliue .

Thomas .

Those haue no néed to go into purgatory . For they haue ben purged inough alredy .

Hillarius .

For the cause the panims dyd not burne the bodyes of those that dyed incontinently , but kept them seauen dayes , and washed them in hot water , and bewayled and lamented them with a loude voyce many times , as we Singing after the dead . doe vnto those that doe sounde or faynt , when any fayntnesse of heart hath taken them . And after when they haue bewayled them the last time , they doe burne them the eight day , and the nynthe day they bury their ashes . For that cause doe they also celebrate the nyne dayes feaste for the soule of the dead .

Thomas .

If that which you speake off be true , we do but a lyttle differ from them . For our priests doe cry after them with so loud a voyce , that if they be not deafe or altogether dead , they would awake .

Hillarius .

There is no difference , but that we are more foolish & more mad then the Panims . For the Panims do not crye after the dead , but vntill they are burned and their ashes buryed : But our Priestes doe crye after them ouer their Tombes and Sepulchers , twentie , thirtie , fortie , yea a hundreth yeares after their death , and although they are altogether consumed to duste . But I finde them a greate deale wiser and better aduised in that matter , for that they doe sprinkle theire Sepulchers with water onely , and not with wine , as the Panims that did shed out great aboundaunce of wine , and milke vppon the Sepulchers , and To offer wine for the dead . more lyberally then those doe the holy water .

Thomas .

They were very fooles , doe they thinke that that wine descendeth into Purgatory , for to giue drincke to the soules of the dead , or the bodyes that were in the Sepulchers ?

HIllarius .

We are asmuch fooles if we do thinke that the holye water , wherewith we sprinkle the Sepulchers and Churchyards , doth descend into Purgatory for to quench and put out the fire . For when the priest maketh his Asperges in the Masse , and in casting the holy water vppon the people , if he doe sée any that putteth not off his cappe or bonet for to receiue that holy coniured and charmed water , he cryeth out vppon him and calleth him Lutherian and Hereticke . Neuerthelesse if their holy water had such strength to penetrate and goe thorow into Purgatory , it is meruayle if it cannot aswell pearce and goe thorow a cappe or bonet , without putting it of the head .

Thomas .

From whence thinke you that that manner to To sprinkle the sepulchers with water . sprinkle the Scpulchers with water did first come ?

Hillarius .

Truly I know not : excepte it be done in stéede that as the Panims after the burninge did sprinkle with water all those that were there present , for to purifie them The purifications at the funeralls . from the pollution and filth that they might receiue , in approching nigh the dead : with which they did thinke themselues defiled . And in stéede that the Panims did purifie those that be alyue , our Priestes will purifie those that bée dead , and when they are vppon the earthe and vnder the earthe : Or peraduenture that custome first came or tooke his beginninge , for that the Panims did decke and To beutifie the sepulchers with flowers . beautifie their Sepulchers with goodly flowers . Afterwards they sprinkeled them with water , to make them continue the longer fresh and swéete . The which is vsed at The custome of the Bigordains . Bag●teres . Ratio diui off . de offi. mor. li. 7. Reiserspeeg . Sermo dominie . 20 post Trinita . this day in the country of Bigore , in the Citie of Bagnieres hard by the hills Pyrenes : And amonge some other Christians , aswel in Almaigne as in other countryes , who doe put hats or garlands of flowers , eyther of Baye or of Iuye within the béere vnder the body of the dead , bicause they should kéepe a long time their verdure and swéetnesse . But bicause peraduenture you may desire the witnesse of all these things , which I haue now declared vnto you of the Panims , I would that you should heare them speake themselues , as already before we haue done it , translating word for woorde their Latine verse into Englishe rime , to the end that they may kéepe the better their stile .

Marke well then the Prince and chiefe of the Poets , touching the cryes and lamentations that they make after the dead , speaking after this manner of the burying of Polidorus .

And holy bloud in basins brought , we poure and last of all Virg. Aen. 3. We shright , and on his soule our last with great cryes out wee call .

And as touching the effusion of the wine , the sprincklyng of the water and of flowers , the which he hath comprised altogether , marke what he sayth at the funeralls of Misenus .

●Hen falne his sinders were , and longer blase did not endure Aene. 6. His reliques & remaine of dust , with wines they washed pure . Then Choryney his bones , in brasen coffin bright did close And sprinklyng water pure , about his mates three times he goes . And drops of sacred dew , with Olyue palmes on them did shake , And compasse blest them all , and sentence last he sadly spake . Requieseant in pace . To fields of ioy thy soule , and endelesse rest we doe betake .

And in an other place speaking of the Anniuersary that Aeneas did for his father Anchises sayth . ●E from the counsel came with thousands thick in mightie throng Virg. Aene. 9 Vnto his fathers tombe , in mids of all his Princes strong . Two bowles of blessed wine , in solemn guise he cast on ground , And milke in basins twayne , about the tombe he poured round . And twayne of sacred bloud , then all the graue he spred & layd , With flowres of purple hewes , and thus at last full lowd he prayd .

Thou hast heard the words of the Poet , or at the least the sence of them , which haue giuen mée occasion to thinke that which I haue tolde vnto thée . Neuerthelesse it may bée that our priests haue inuented that manner to sprinkle the Sepulchers with water , for to spare the wine , the whiche they had rather drincke then to shedde it , and they will not bée so prodigall in spending the wyne so much as they doe the water .

Thomas .

We doe not spare it therefore . For we are compelled to giue drinke to the soules all the yeare .

Hillarius .

We are the more fooles : But our Priestes are wiser then the Panims . For they haue no regarde to giue the soules drinke , nor to poure it vppon the earthe , for to sprinkle the Sepulchers : but doe poure it into their bellyes , and sprinkle their consciences , and will keepe the lawe of Numa ky●e of the Romaynes , saying : Doe The ●●w of Numa . not poure out the wine vppon the ashes and Sepulchers of Vino rogum ne respergito . the dead .

Thomas .

They are then the Lieuetenaunts of the soules , but I would haue no such Lieuetenants at my table . I had rather to giue them charge to fast for mée , then to eate , & had rather haue them héerem my Lieuetenants . But let vs also speake of the wynnowings that you haue set foorth for the thirde manner of Purgatory , the which the auncients had and vsed . I know not whether we vse them towards the dead : But I haue séene them vsed towardes those that be alyue . I haue séene them vsed towardes those that be alyue . I haue séene the priestes to winde the women and lyttle children with the platine , messell and corporall cloth in the Masse . But I know not to what end the Demostb . in Aes● chi. Virg. Georg. 1. Et mistica vannus Ia●●bi . winde can serue for the soules in Purgatory , but for to blow their fire .

Hillarius .

I would counsayle them to haue a Fanne , as the Panims had , which was made holy for to make their holy winnowings . When I haue throughlye considered it , I doe thinke that our Priestes and Monkes cannot giue so good reason of y● that they do , as the Panims . And for to tell the truthe , mée thinketh that they are lyke vnto those Emperiques , that haue but one receyte for all Emperiques . diseases and complexions , for al ages , times and countries , who doe kil more then they do heale : or for to make the comparison Melters . more proper , they make me to remember those Surgions which doe grease those that haue the goute and the pocks , whome they cause al to passe thorow their furnace , for to melt them all anew .

Theophilus .

Sith that they dispise and contemne the The Purgatory of those that haue the poxe . Gospell , and that by the same they will not be made newe creatures , forsaking their olde Adam , & the concupiscence of their flesh , it is good reason , that they haue such Smithes and melters for to make them new agayne . And sith that men doe make no punishment . God through his iust iudgement will make them to feele that fire , for to quench the fire of concupiscence which burneth in their heart and vaines , if they can consider it , which is for theire profite , and to draw them from their whoredome .

Thomas .

Men haue The dyet . now founde out , that they can heale thorow the dyet without melting them .

Hillarius .

I doe greatly feare , that if our Priests & Monkes learne none other occupation and science , & that they finde out none other drougs for to purge sinnes , that they shall not finde héereafter any great trade , but shal be constrayned to make the dyet themselues , and the Alcumy with their téeth , the which they doe feare greatly . For men will giue them so lyttle to eat , that I greatly doubte that they néede not to learne to faste and to lyue in more greater sobrietie and abstinence , for to coole them a little . For sith that the fire hath begun to kindle with in their furnace , as Theophilus hath sayd , and that all is consumed and burned except hell , it is much to be feared that the register and rentall of theire reuenues with all their rentes The rentall of Purgatory . that come vnto them yearely of Purgatory be not altogether consumed and melted . I doe thinke that there is no The Art for to teach the priestes to be sober . better remedy for to correct their whoredome , & to learne them sobrietie and to kéepe a good dyet , then to take from them their Purgatory . Wherfore the Souldiers were not altogether The salutacion of the Souldiers vnto the holy fathers euill aduised , nor did not euill vnderstande that matter , who aunswered to those holy fathers , in stéede of a great curse when they saluted them , with their Pax vobis & pax sit huic Domini : Dominus auferat vobis Purgatorium . O holy father ( say they . ) They doe praye that the Souldiers may haue peace , and the Souldiers to the contrary doe pray for them that God would take from them their Purgatory . And doe shew the reason . For wee lyue saye they by the warre , as you doe of Purgatorye , and you would take it from vs , and giue vnto vs peace . Wherfore we pray vnto God that he would also take from you the Purgatory , and you shal be as much estonished as we , and doe thinke that you shall haue no more to eate their we haue .

Thomas .

You are of his opinion whome I demaunded not long since the exposition of a place that is in the Gospel , Mat. 17 d●at To driue ou● Diuels thorow fasting & prayer . in which Iesus Christ speaking of him that was possessed with a Diuell , whom his Disciples could not heale , saith : This kinde of Diuells cannot be driuen out but by fasting and prayer .

Hillarius .

What exposition doth he giue vnto thée vppon the same ?

Thomas .

That the Priestes and Monkes were of that kinde of diuells , that they cannot be driuen away but by prayer and fasting , and therefore saith he , giue them nothing to eate , but let them fast as long as they haue made you fast , and pray vnto God for them .

Hillarius .

Beholde a verie good receite , the which will not cost verie much at the Apothicaries .

Theophilus .

But wée must not so iest and scoffe with Gods woorde .

Thomas .

Notwithstanding he that aunswered vnto me so and vnto many other that were present , was one of your people and one of your goodly gospellers .

Theophilus .

I denye not but that wee haue many such , which are good Carnal Gospellers gospellers in not giuing any thing vnto the Priestes , nor yet in offering any thing vnto them . But that is not sufficient : Sith that they accompt the Priestes and Moukes for Diuells , I woulde gladly that they should practise with themselues that doctrine of Iesus Christ , and that they woulde not be onely gospellers in eating of flesh all dayes a like , and in not offering no more vnto the Priestes , nor vnto their images : But that they woulde giue themselues to pray vnto God , to deliuer his Church from false prophets and sheperdes , and for to prouide true Priestes that doe confesse and preach his gospell . And to the The fastings & prayers of the Christinas ende that their prayers should be the more feruent & done with greater faith , I do also desire that they woulde liue more soberly then they haue done , and that they would fast after the manner of the true seruauntes of God , for to bee more attentiue and feruent in their prayers , and that they woulde giue almes vnto the poore , of the goods of Iesus Christ that men haue stollen from his members , for to giue them to the Priestes .

Thomas .

I am of thine opinion . For as touching the riside we , I sée that almost euerye one wil be come a gospeller in that point , that is in giuing little vnto the Priestes . But after all these matters , I would gladly that you woulde declare vnto me , when and howe the fire hath first begun in Purgatorie , and sithence what time it is burned ?

Theophilus .

Sithence that the Gospel of Iesus Christ hath béene preached by the Apostles .

Thomas .

Me thinketh that you speake against Hillarie , How Purgatory is burned and al the catholicke Church . For if it had béene burned so long time agon , what Purgatorie should the Priestes haue had sithence ?

Theophilus .

You must vnderstande , that sithence the ruines and decayed places thereof haue béene repayred and amended by them , as an old house that men doe reedifie & amend , after that it is decayed . But sithence these thirtie or twentie yeares , the fire hath begun to kindle againe , and hath consumed and wasted it altogether . Therefore I doe say , that either the holy father the preacher was neuer there , or else it is long time sithence : Wherefore he coulde not be aduertised of the houshold that they kéepe there .

Thomas .

Then I pray you , wherefore is not Hell as well burned which is more dangerous , Hell & in which there is greater fire , then either in the Limbe , or in Purgatorie ?

Theophilus .

If you had well vnderstanded that which hath béene alreadie told you , I néeded not nowe to satisfie againe your demaunde . The Limbe and Purgatorie are burned bicause they were builded and set vp with mens hands , who can make no worke to continue any long time , but that it wil be rotten in longe continuance , or else destroyed with the fire whiche consumeth all 2. Pet 3. d Hell and the paines of hell are eternal things . But hell is an other thing : there are verie stronge walles , which will continue for euer . For euen as God , which is eternall hath builded with his owne hande those goodly celestiall pallaces , and hath planted that pleasant and delectable paradise , for to receiue his children and seruants into the fruition and pleasure of the eternall life and felicitie : So hath he constituted & appointed for to giue vnto the wicked according to their iniquitie , and to punish them as a righteous iudge for their execrable crimes & offences , the fire of Hell in which the worme dieth not nor the fire is neuer Mar. 9. g. 4 4 Esa , 66. g. 24 Esa. 30 g. 30. quenched . For as witnesseth the prophet Esay : The Lord doth breath forth , thorow the wind of his wrath & indignation , & doth cause the flouds of Brimstone to flow out for euer , thorow his wrath and vengeance , insomuch that there is neuer fire there lacking .

Thomas .

But how hath the fire begun in Purgatory rather sitheus the time that you haue spoken , then it did before ?

Theophilus .

I do meruayle that in this so long time it hath not bene done , and how it could so long continue , considering the tyranny that was there exercised . For sithens that it was reedyfied and buylded agayne , ther went no more any into Paradise nor yet into Hell , but all taryed in Purgatory . Ther was neyther poore nor rich but that all were put in there : and they could not be suffered to depart although that they had paid their raunsome two or thrée times , especially when there is wherof to take . For there are such , that after they haue bene kepte there already one or two hundreth yeares , yet they haue bene constrayned to disburse yearely , dayly and hourely new money , for to haue bulls and pardons , for to haue Masses , Vigiles , Requiems , Libera me , and for to celebrate Yereminds , Anniuersaryes , for to pay obites , and a great many other sorts of gatherings , tributes and rents , that it is impossible to number them .

Hillarius .

I thinke that there should be goodly and rich mines of gold & siluer . I know not whether that fire hath melted & consumed it al together . For ther was in times past great store , that almost all the golde and siluer of the world , and all the riches and treasures of the Christians are all gone thether . The Panims held Pluto for the God of hell and of riches , bicause they thought him to dwell in Pluto . those low countryes , to which the soules did goe : and bycause that all the treasures and riches doe come from the earth , and that one shall finde th●r the mynes of gold and of siluer . But the more I do thinke on the folly of the Panims , so much the more doe I finde ours to be out of reason , sauing that we haue in deede that which they had but in figure and imagining . For we haue the Pope which is the very Pluto . For he hath both Hell and Paradise to sell . Hée is kinge of Hell , Lymbe and of Purgatory . Hée is Eacus , Minos , and Radamantus . For he iudgeth the ●oore soules , as it pleaseth him , and condemneth them to the Limbe , Purgatory or in hell when it pleaseth him , & as often as he séeth good . And God knoweth what mines of golde and siluer , what treasures & goods he draweth vnto him : in such sort that we may very well call him Pluto , Mammon , God of the earth and vnder the earth , king of Hell and of all his territories . The more I consider the thing , so much the more it maketh me astonied . For I haue read many histories which make mention of many Tyrants and great théeues , which haue bene couetous and raueners without all measure : But I know not , whether a man shall finde many , or To demaund tribute of the dead . one onely that hath caused tribute to be paide by the dead , as be doth dayly among the Christians . If one shall finde any , I beléeue at the least that he hath not so long compelled the dead to pay tribute . Wée may very well say that among the Christians is accomplished the prouerbe of the auncientes , who speake of those that with wrong & violence Aristo . li. 2 R●eto . goe about to haue and catch , they demaund tribute of the dead and the meale and flowre of Images : willing also by that kinde of speaking , to rebuke those that wil enrich themselues by vnhonest & vnlawfull meanes , & which dooe séeke profit of those small & vile thinges , as the Emperour Vespasian , who caused tribute to be paide of the vryne : and of vile things , as of bawdry , euen as the Pope did that receiued tribute of whoores and of brothell houses that are at Rome . One may also speake it of those that get money of all men , without any difference either of friendes , poore or Sueto in ve●●as . Tribute of v●●ne & of the stewes . of the beggers , and in the ende , of those that are deade . But that Prouerbe coulde neuer bée better applyed , then to our Priestes and Monkes . Vespasian althoughe hée was otherwyse a good Emperour , hath bene taxed of couetousnesse for that tribute that hée receyued of the vryne . And when his sonne Titus who was ashamed , Vespasian & Titus S●● to in Vespas . admonished him , hée caused him to smell at hys nose the money hée receyued , afterwarde asked hym , whether hée dyd smell the vryne ? When Titus had aunswered hym , that no , hée sayde vnto him then ? All sauour is good so that money doe come . The sauour of the gaine is good which way soeuer it doe come and of what thing soeuer it ●ix●i bonus odor exre qu●● libet . B●●ry sauour is good so that mony come . bée . Our Priestes haue kepte well that prouerbe and knowe very well to practise it . For notwithstanding that the dead carrens of whom they take money , doe stincke , it sufficeth them so that the money doth not stincke . The Romaine Princes haue bene in the olde time much despised , The auarice of the Romaines Necrocorinth●a . for that they haue digged vp the monuments of the Corinthians , and haue carryed awaye their Images and pictures of brasse . But what shall men say of these héere ? They are not content with the dismes , prebendes , benefices , rentes and reuenewes that they haue continually , but The Christians contributaries before they be borne and after they be dead . wée must gyue them newe money dayly , after that wée bée conceyued in our Mothers belly , vntill an hundreth yeares after wée bée deade and more . If our Mother that beareth vs doe take any hurt bicause of hir childe , shée shall make incontinently a vowe vnto some Sainct , and shall cause Masses to bée sayde , and shall bringe money vnto the Priest , and shall binde hir sonne to kéepe the vowe and to doe the like when he commeth to age . Are wée not already appointed to paye a raunsome in our Mothers belly ? Doe wée not begin to pay tribute , before wée bée borne ? Afterwardes if the childe bée borne ? hée shall not bée baptized , nor can be a Christian , excepte you dooe Baptisme . paye money . Beholde the happy houre that wée haue immedeatly at the enteringe into the Churche . Muste the childe bée anealed and confirmed ? hée must paye , for they will not laye onely their handes vppon hym , nor hée Confirmation shal not haue the holy Oyle & Creame , except that he haue Confession Singing of Masses . ready money . Will hée bée confessed ? hée must paye . Will he haue Masses & prayers said for him ? he must pay . Will hée receiue the Lordes supper ? he must buye Iesus The Supper . Christ with ready money .

Theophilus .

Yet their money were but a small tryfle and a thing of nothing , if that that they did , were accordinge to Gods ordinaunce : But it is altogether contrary .

Hillarius .

Will hée marrie ? hée cannot bée wedded Marriage . but that hée must paye . Will hée bée a Priest ? GOD To take orders . knoweth howo oft hée must put his hande into his pourse before that he hath passed thorow all their orders . But after hée wyll make the poore people paye for it . Doth hée fall sicke and will hée bée anealed ? and haue his last Sacrament ? Extrem vnction . hée must paye . I dooe not knowe howe , but that wée maye bée all good Arithmeticians , althoughe wée haue neuer séene Arithmaticke nor yet castinge of accomptes . For wée doe practise all our lyfe tyme no other Arithmeticians . & the schole of Arithmaticke . science with them . Wée néede not to sende our children vnto Schoolemaisters for to learne them to accompte , cifre and number . For they maye learne verye well with them . They will neither consecrate nor coniure not so much as a stone , chalice , candle , or a droppe of water , they will not so much as lifte vp their hande for to make a crosse and blesse but with two fingers wythoute putting out all their hande , without some hope of gaine . They will not so muche as to blesse a roote , a graine of The blessings of the Missell , the Portus and of the Manuel of the Priestes . Benedictio ●ladi , salis , & ouorum Benedictio rasurni . Benedictio pera & baculi . Benedictio anuli & lecti . Benedictio panis , et seminum . Benedictio domus nou● . Benedictio easula . Benedictio ad omnia . salte , or of wheate , an egge or a morsell of chéefe , or a roote when one woulde séeth it , or the scrippe or hooked staffe of a Pilgrime , when hée woulde goe on his voiage , or the ringe or the bed of one that is wedded , but that they must haue some thing .

Thomas .

They do meddle with a great many of things if they doe all that .

Hillarius .

Their Missels , Portesses and Manuels may beare wytnesse , if you will not beléeue mée . But you may well perceiue and knowe that they haue not innented all those manner of dooinges , but thereby the better to get money euery where , the which they gette verye easely and without any great trauaile , but onely in making of crosses , and mumblinge some wordes after the manner of inchaunters . But into what daunger I doe caste my selfe ? I had rather to drawe out all the water of the sea , then to declare all the manner of the pillings that they dooe vnto vs . The Historiographers dooe accompte as detestable crymes the tributes , and vnhoneste gaynes , the rapines and extorcions that the Tyrantes and Romaine The rapines and extortions of 〈◊〉 the Emperour Caligula . Sueto . Trāq . in Calig . The pride of Caligula . Emperours haue exercised , chiefly Caligula & Nero : But these héere wyll iustifie them and accompt them for good men in respect of them , if that time shoulde continue a little longer . It is written of Caligula ( who was so bolde that he would be worshipped as God , & hath builded a temple in his honour during his lyfe ) that hée spared neither Ioseph . Anti. li. 18. ca. 15. man nor any thing whatsoeuer it bée , to the which hée hath Tribute of vittailes and of proces . not laide some tribute . Hée receiued certeine tribute of all manner of vittaile that are solde in the Citie . There was neither plaint , proces , cause nor iudgement , of which he toke not the fortie part of the summe for which the controuersy was , insomuch that if the plaint had bene fortie thousande crownes , he would take a thousand for his part . He receiueth Tribute of get p●nce and of harlots . the eight part of the gaine that the poore get pence , iangellers , log carriers , and other like did dayly gette . Also the common harlots and whoores must not onely pay vnto him when & as often as they did commit whoredome , but did also compell those that before time vsed that occupation , & which had bene whooremongers and bawdes : and not content with Tribute of marriages . that , did receiue tribute of those that are married . The plaiers also of cardes and dice were not exempted . But which Tribute of plaiing at cardes & dice . is more , he caused to be builded & set vp houses for whoores for to make his reuenewes the greater .

Thomas .

Beholde most vile , excecrable and most vnworthy things , I say not of an Emperour , but of the most wickedst man in the whole worlde . That is much worse then to recouer tribute of vrine and pisse .

Hillarius .

If you thincke that to be vnworthy for a heathen Emperour , what maye you iudge of the Pope and his officers , if they doe the lyke , yea , or rather worse ? You haue already hearde howe that there is neither poore man nor rich , of whom they haue not gotten money euery way and dayly . And if you will knowe what tribute they receyue of the victualles they sell , you must aske the Itali●ns , The papisticall tribute of the vi●●a●les . who can tell by experience . I doe beléeue that Caligula neuer vsed suche crueltie as Pope Clement vsed , altogether contrary to his name , who in the time of dearth The crueltie of Pope Clement and famine , séeing that the poore people had not any other thing to eat then hearbes , of which they made sallets for to nourish and féede them , the better to shew foorth his clemencie , pittie & compassion that he had of the poore people of Italy béeing much oppressed with hunger , caused to make their salt deerer , and set a talent vpon it , to the end that they could not eate a sallet but that they must pay tribute . But Dispensations for to eat flesh and milke doe we not dayly sée the money that they get vnto them , for to dispence with those that would eat flesh & al such meates as are made of milke , against their decrées ? These are meruaylous sellers of vittailes and Bouchers , that receiue money of flesh , egs , milke , butter and cheese , and doe neuer dystribute any thing . And of their plaintés and proces , doth ther come vnto them smal gaine ? And at Rome , Boulong●e and other Cities subiect vnto the Pope , hath he not officers Phil. Beroal . in Sueto Caig. Tribute of whores Prafecti Bulle tarum . and other Cities subiect vnto the Pope , hath he not officers and magistrates that receiue monthly tribute of whoores and of those women that are forsaken ? which are commonly called the Popes pardoners .

Theophilus .

The Lord by Moses hath forbidden that one shall not offer the hire of an whoore nor the price of a Dog. But those are not disdainfull . At the least wise they Deut. 23. c. 18 Alexander Seuerus emperour lampi id in Alexand. did as the Emperour Alexander , who did forbid that such tributes should not be put into the treasure of the temple , nor of the common wealth .

Hillarius .

I doe also thincke that those doe not put in much , and that the Bishops do not enrich very much the treasures of the Church , with the tributes that they haue receiued of their whooremaister Priests for suff●ring them to haue their concubines , whome they loue a great deale better , then if they were honester men . For they should not haue so much gaine . But I thincke that the Pope who is the great prince and capitaine of the bawdes ought also to compell the Bishops who are the The Bishoppes Bawdes to the priestes . bawdes , vnto their Priests , to pay vnto him tribute , of the tribute that they haue gotten . But the thing might yet be more tollerable if they had but onely rendered the tribute of the whoores , to that they had exempted those that are marryed , of which they doo receiue no lesse money , as well of the proces which their decrées and canons haue ingendered , as of the dispensations , as well for the espouses as of the degrées of consanguinitie and other like thinges . It is also written of Nero , that hée neuer gaue any office to any person , but that hée added and sayde . Thou knowest that I must haue . Letting vs to vnderstand , that they muste The selling of Offices . Nero. Sueto . Tran. in Nero. Scis quid mibi opus sit : & hoc aga●●s ne quis qui●qu●n habeat Alexander Emperour . paye . For he hath néede of money : And after that sort hée was the seller of offices and of Magistrates , which is a very vnworthy thing for a good Prince . But the auarice and rapacite of Nero , nor the selling of offices were nothinge in comparison of that which is in the Popishe Church , in all offices and benefices .

Theophilus .

Alexander Seuerus a Romaine Emperour howe greate a Panim soeuer hée were , shall haue good occasion at the daye of iudgement to rise against that generation . For hee woulde neuer suffer that any shoulde sell either honors or offices , speaking these wordes worthy to be remembred . It is necessary that he that byeth do sell . Wherefore I will not suffer Merchaunts of estates & offices .

Hillarius .

Beholde the woordes of a worthy Prince : Necesse est vt qui emit venda● . Ego non patior mareatores potestatum . But woulde to GOD that the Pope and his Popelinges did no worse then those Tyrantes , and that they woulde suffer vs at the least to bee at peace and rest after that wée bée deade , and that wée might dye without paying any thinge , sith that our lyse hath cost vs so much . But then that tyranny doth begin a freshe . Are wée dead ? we must first pay for the buriall before we can be buried . The panims had at the least common churchyards for to bury in , for the poore mean people which did cost them nothing . The buryall solde . But among the Christians , in many places it is not onely lawfull that the poore dead carkas should bée couered wyth earth , except he doe first buy the place and length and bredth of the grounde in which he would be buryed . And according to the summe thou gyuest , the place shal be accordingly Grego . in Reg. Iann . 〈◊〉 . 1. ●a● . either little or great . If thou wilt pay a great deale it shal be lawfull for thée to rotte by the high Aulter . If thou doe 〈◊〉 . 2. Qu●sta . Ib. d. ●●●ro in Gene●● 4. post . quam . & 〈◊〉 . Tu●●a . In ecclesi ●●●o , & ca. precipiendum . giue but a little , thou shalt lye in the rayne wyth the common people . And although men doe offer vnto them wyllingly money for the buryall , yet they shall runne into infainy and shame for taking it , and also their canons and d●cretalls as it appearethe by the auncient Doctors , doc forbio it expresly . But they d●e a great deale worse . For they say that it is their duetie and ryght , and compell them to pay it .

Theophilus .

Ephron that heathen and barberous man , offered willingly vnto Abraham , beeing a straunger and not Ephron & ●braham . Gene. 23. b. 10. knowen , his field freely , for to bury his wis● Sar● in , and it was much adoe euer he would be perswaded to rece●ue the money that Abraham offered him . But the Christian priests doe sell the buryall in other mens grounde and which belongeth not to them : yea , & moreouer they h●e out for money , as their owne , that which is common to all . I would gladly that they were at the least so honest men , as the Scribes Math 27. a. 〈◊〉 Act. 1. c. 18 and Pharises ; Bishops and Priestes of Hierusalem , who bought wyth the money , that Iudas gaue , them againe , a fielde and possession for to bury the poore straungers , in ●lood wheroff our Priestes do sell the ground to their next neighbours .

Hillarius .

I assure you without lying in any one worde , that there was in the citie of O●be a poore Taylor , named A true history of our tyme . Gaspard . I thincke you knowe him . Who was so poore that he had much adoe to liue and who had so many peeces and patches in his cloake as there bée dayes in the yeare . It was so péeced and patched with so many péeces one vpon an other that it was rather lyke vnto a brigantine , then a coate . His wife brought him foorth a childe that was Our lady of Lausanna & hir miracles . borne dead : hée carryed it vnto our Lady of Lausanna , who dyd many goodly m●racles : who raysed to lyfe those lyttle children that were borne dead , and after they must incontinently bury them . For after that she hath raysed th●m to lyfe , they coste their parentes no more to nouryshe . That was a resurrection altogether differinge from False miracles that of Iesus Christ , and of those whome he hath raised , who did speake , walke , eate and drincke after their resurrection , Iohn . 11. e. 43. & 12 a. 2 Mar. 5. d. 42 Luc. 7. c 15 Act. 9. g 40 Act. 20. b. 9 as it appeared in Lazarus the brother of Martha , and of Mary : Also in the daughter of Iarus , also in the sonne of the widdowe of Naim , also of Doreas raised by S. Peter . And Eutieus by Sainct Paul . When the childe had bene a little time before the Idoll , he stoode vp as the others did , and the miracle was done when it pleased the olde woman that kept it . For there were also meanes to haste the The olde women that doe keepe the children that bee borne dead . miracles . For when any did giue a large drincking penny to the olde woman she might the cléerer or better knowe when the childe chaunged colour or when hée breathed or wagged . And that is soone found out as well there , as at our Lady of grace of Geneua , of those olde women who durst say vnto some that haue brought of those children , when they will not giue them to drincke as they would , nor giue them that they demaund : The Diuell of miracle that you shall haue thrée dayes . Those are yet liuing who hearde it , who can witnesse the truth . Wherefore I doe conclude , that the olde woman doth the miracles and not our Lady .

Thomas .

And hath that poore man Gaspard quenched their thirst ?

Hillarius .

I kmow not what he did . I thinke that when she sawe him so beggerly , that she had some pittie . But héerein stoode the question that when the childe that was raised must bée buryed , then had he somewhat to doe . For he must pay foure or fiue grotes for the buryall : and I beléeue that he had not foure farthinges for to paye his charge and expence . Neuerthelesse he could neuer agrée with the Priestes , but was constrained to carry his childe to Orbe , or otherwise he must bury him in the rawe earth . For hée coulde neuer haue one foote of sodden earth .

Thomas .

What doe you call sodden earth and rawe earth ?

Hillarius .

Are you of that country & know not the Raw earth . language ? Doe you not know that our priests do call commonly raw earth that which is out of the churchyard , & which hath not ben blessed & consecrated , that is to wéet charmed by them , as the same of their Church . If it be rawe I conclude by contraries that the other is sodden .

Thomas .

And when he was at Orbe , did he finde the Priestes more pitifull then at Lausannia ?

Hillarius .

God knoweth howe that poore man was sifted and tried . They did thinke to eate him aliue with his childe , & compelled him to carrie him to Lausannia , or at the least would not suffer him to bury him in the Churchyarde : neuerthelesse hee buried him . But I knowe not whether it were in the rawe ground or sodden .

Thomas .

Beholde a greate rigour and crueltie shewed vnto a little infant .

Hillarius .

I doe thinke that Apuli . li. 6. Asini aur. if that tyme had continued any long space we should haue béene constrayned not to dye , for want of burying . It is a marueylous case that that poore little Infant had so much Et si sorte p●ae manu non fuerit n●mo expirate pauperem patiotur . a doe to finde one little corner or angle in the earth , for to be buried in , and that the earth was not greate ynough for him . We may very well say that of our Priests which Phocion . saide of the Athemans a little before his death . Phocion Plut. in Phocion . When they had condemned him to dye ( bicause he was too honest a man for them , nor they were not worthy to haue him among them ) he must drincke of the hemlocke . For The poyson of the Athenians . the Athenians had that custome to make those that were founde faultie to drinke that poyson , and to put them to death after that sort . After that all the other that were in the prison with him , had dronken , and that there was none but he alone left , bicause that all the other had consumed the poyson that did drinke first , the hangman saide that hée will not giue it him vnlesse one woulde giue him twelue Death bought . drachines of siluer . For bicause that an ownce of the poyson was sold for so much . Phocion then pleading with the hangman that his death might not be prolonged , and that the same should not let or hinder him to die , called vnto him a certeine friende of his , and said vnto him : Sith that it is not lawfull to dye at Athens frely but that it will cost money , and that I must bye death , I pray thée deliuer money to this hangman , and giue him the price hée demaundeth , least that for want of money I should tarry any longer before I dye . We may say as much of the Christians , and that the Christianitie is so much contributary , that one cannot onely haue the death and the buriall freely , but that we must pay a rewarde . There was also among the Panims The custome of the dead & the s●●ry money of Charon . a certeine custome that the dead must pay . And therfore when any man dyed they did put into his mouthe an halfe penny for to paye for his passage and custome vnto Charon the Ferryman of Hell for to serry the soules ouer the riuers that were there to passe ouer .

Thomas .

That Naulum O●●alus was very good cheape : But I do thinke that there passed many together at once . For the soules are not very hea●y .

Hillarius .

According to the bodies from which they came out .

Thomas .

And if they had not wherewith to pay , should they be constrayned to retourne to lyue againe , and to continue and abide heere for want of money ?

Hillarius .

They had that opinion that they should continue in great torment , if they coulde not passe .

For they could not be purged of their sinnes , nor enter into the fields Eliseas with the blessed , but that they must firste passe the riuer : As men haue made vs to beleeue of the soules who haue not ended their penaunce . They doe also beleeue that if their bodyes be not honestly buryed according to their estate and degrée , they cannot passe in an hundreth yeares , but must be wandring héere and there , vntill such time as their bodyes be buryed , or vntill the terme of an hundreth yeares , which was assigned vnto them for their payne and punishment , be expired : the which things the Poet hath comprised altogether in one selfe place by his verses of which I wil recite vnto you one parte of those that agree best to our matter .

He speaketh in that place of the things that A●neas hath séene , béeing descended into Hell with Sibilla , the which afterwardes hée expoundeth and sheweth playnely wh●t they signifie . He first describeth that which they haue séene there practised , saying .

HEere now the way doth lead to Lymbo lake and filthy stoud , Ver. A●ne . 6. Whose channell choked is , with troublous grounds of miry mud . And belching boyles a sand , which to the bakes it throws from deeps , A dredfull ferriman that streme , with visage lothsom keepes . In tartred wretched weede , and Charon he by name doth hight His hoary bush and bearde , both ouergrowue & foule vndight . , With skowling steming eyes , & from his shoulders down his loyns , His filthy mantell hangs , whom sluttish knot vncomly ioyns . Himselfe with pyked poale his boat doth guyde , & bears a charge , Transporting still the soules , in rusty dusty canckred barge . Well aged now , but sappy strength he keepes of greener yeares , To this place al the rout doth draw themselues with louring cheeres , By nombers great , both men and women dead , nor long delayde , With Princes preased boyes and girles , that wedlocke neuer sayde . And slouring youth , that in their parents time were laid in ground , And all that lyfe had borne , about that banke they clustered round , As thicke as leaues of trees among the woods in wynter winde . When first to ground they fal , or lyke as foules of water kinde . Assembling flock themselues , when yere of frost hath first begunne , And ouer S●●s they seeke in warmer lands to take the Sunne . They stood , and crauing cride , that first transport they might before , And stretching held their hands desiring much the further shore . The churlish ferruman , now these now those by course receiues , And some down thrusting throwes , & from the sande restraining Aeneas then for of this great tumult he merua●lde sore , ) weiues . O virgin tell ( 〈◊〉 he ) what meanes this busie great vprore ? What seeke they thus ? why to this water banke rome they so fast ? Wherefore be these reiect ? and yonder those their course hath past ? And some with ores I see are s●veeping yet this channeell blewe , Than shortly thus to him dame Sibly spake that Prophet trewe . O great Anchises sonne , vndoubted childe of Gods in blisse , Now Lymbo lake thou ●eest , infernall poole this water is . Cocitus cald it is , and Stygies more the name doth beare , By which the Gods themselues , so sore afraid bene for to sweare . This prease that here thou seest , ben people dead not layd in graue , A piteous rable poore , that no release nor comfort haue . This boateman Charon is , & those whom now this water beares , Are bodyes put in ground , with worship due of weping teares . Nor from these fearefull bankes nor ●●ers hoaree they passage get , Till vnder earth in graues their bodyes bones at rest are set . A hundreth years they walke , & round about these shores they houe And then at last full glad , to further pooles they do remoue .

There are yet at this day some who do not much differ from that opinion .

Thomas .

I knowe not what they doe in The prayer of those that are depriued from ●●●riall . Rer●c . sperg . Ser●o dominic . 24 post Trinita . 〈◊〉 all Ap●li . li. 6. Asin a●r . ●rgo inter mortuos anaritia V●i● : ne● C●aron ilie ditis , & pater tantus Deus quiequam gratuito facit ? & pauper mortens debat viaticum quarere . The Milanois . other places , but in our citie when any is dead , & that they doe bring him to bée buried , he must bring with him his trentall . For assoone as the deade corpes is come into the Church , they doe lay ten lyardes vppon his breast , whiche is thirtie deneeres in valewe , the which the Curate or vycar goeth incontinently to take vp .

Hillarius .

That is n the honour of the thirty pence as I thinke which Iudas sold Iesus Christ .

Thomas .

I knowe not whether they had a regard to that , but you haue made me to thinke that the same was to pay the feriage . Wherefore I would at the least wise that if the Priestes will not suffer vs to passe fréely , that our custome might be as cheape as was that of the Panims .

Hillarius .

The Milanois haue yet at this day that custome , that they doe put a péece of Siluer in the hand of him that is dead , but he carrieth it with him , and doeth not giue it vnto the Priestes . Vppon which I haue heard recited an excellent historie which is written in the cronicles of Milanois , verie proper , for to shewe vnto our Priestes that they ought to suffer the dead to rest , without demaunding any thing more of them . For they are no more in their owne ground nor countrie : wherefore they ought no more to be tributaries . And may very well thinke that they ought not to haue any greate store of money with them in these base and lowe territories , for as much as alreadie long time agone they haue taken all that that they could : & which is more , they did well know that they haue taken away nothing with them . For euen as they Ioh 1. d. 21 ●●c . 〈◊〉 . 5 c 14 〈◊〉 o. b. 7 Valer. Max. li. 2 ●a . 1. de iust aut . came all naked into the worlde , so shall they returne againe all naked : Except peraduenture our Priestes bee of the opinion of the auncient Galles and Frenchmen who do thinke that in the other worlde men doe handle money as they doe in this : & therefore they do lende the one to the other money vnto vsurie , to pay it below after their death . But I greatly feare that our Priestes do not so much beléeue of the unmortalitie of the soules , as those there , and that they had rather borrow vppon that compte , then to lende . But let vs come vnto our history . In the time that Gothes Aduenturers To spoyle the dead , and to pil the naked A true historie the Barbarians and Gothes did inhabite Italy , and Lumbardy , and did vse great extorcions vnto the poore people , ( as aduenturers and Souldiers haue accustomed to doe : who after that they haue gotten all the spoyle , yet they will pill the naked and spoyle the dead . And when they haue taken all , insomuch that there is nothing left , yet they would that men should giue them more , and doe torment the poore people , for to compell them to tell wher they haue hid vp their money , although they haue none . ) Among the rest there was an honest widdowe and of a riche house , Blondu● who knewe not what to doe , hir house and all hir goodes were already sacked and pilled , that there was no more to take , and yet neuerthelesse the Souldiers did gréeue and threaten hir that shée had more money . Whilest that shée was in that perplexitie , one of hir children came vnto hir and sayd : You doe remember mother that when my father dyed , one did put a ducat in his hande ? let vs go fetche it and giue it to the Souldiers , to the ende that they would let vs haue a lyttle peace and rest . The poore woman beléeued the counsaile of hir sonne , and for to haue peace with those théeues was constrained to open the Tombe wherein hir husband was layde with other dead bodyes and tooke away that ducat from him for to giue it vnto them . The same béeing come vnto the Captaynes eare : for the Soldiers were present , who saw euery thing and declared it vnto him . And therefore incontinently as he vnderstoode theroff , he sayd vnto his people : Let vs depart hence , and let vs not torment them any more : For there is no more money , sith that they haue bene constrayned to séeke it with the dead .

Thomas .

Truely that might bée very well called to take tribute of the deade .

Hillarius .

I would gladly that our priestes and Monkes had such a iudgement , and that they had asmuch pittie on the poore people , & not to compel them any longer to pay trybute for the dead , when they sée that they haue woorke vnough to fynde money to buye bread for to giue meate vnto those that be alyue . Mée thinketh that they ought to content themselues for that they haue pilled the world so long time , when they sée that it is eaten euen to the bones . For how many poore people are there , that shal be constrayned to go and dig the dead out of their graues , if they did know any that had money , for to delyuer themselues from the hands of such aduenturers ? But which is worse , in stéede to content themselues in so pillyng the poore people vntill this present time , if there bée any that speaketh one onely word againste their pillyngs and extorcions , and which refuseth to pay tribute for the quicke and the deade , they will condempne them immediately to the fire , as Heritickes . We doe call the Scythians barbarous people , and estéeme them very cruell , especially the Essedonians and Massagetes , who doe eate theire fathers and mothers and their parents and friendes , in stéede to burye them . The Essedonians haue a custome ( as the Historiographers doe witnesse ) to singe after their parents , and after that their kinsfolke and neighbours are assembled together , they doe eate the flesh of the dead bodyes , mingled with the fleshe of beastes . The lyke haue they written of the Massagetes who were also Scythians . I haue thoughte that manner of doing to be meruaylous straunge , and would not beléeue it that ther wer people vpon the earth so inhumaine , who had not great horrour and feare to eate the flesh of men . But when I consider & way the doings of our Priestes , I finde the Scythians to be very humaine in comparison of them . For they are not content to eate the dead onely , but they eate both the quicke & the dead : & not béeing content with y● do also eate with them their wyues , children , parents & friends with all their cheuances & substance : & yet they cannot be suffised & satisfied . They make The Priestes are the graues of men and of Iesus Christ . Stella clericorum O saccrdos cor● pu● tut●m efficitur quotidic sepulchrum Christi . of their bodyes the sepulchers of the poore people whom they do englut and deuoure , for to bury them more preciously in their bowels . But you must not be abashed if they make of their bodies the sepulchers of the poore people , as the Scythians did of their parents & friends , sith that they say that they are made dayly the sepulcher of Iesus Christ , bicause they doe eate him dayly , and bury him in their bodyes and entrayles . The poore people haue then no iust occasion to complayne of their crueltie . For they doe vnto them no worse then vnto their God , if their doctrine be true , but doe bury them as preciously & honestly . And hée that will not beléeue me , let him read their booke which is intituled Stella Clericorum : and he shall sée whether I lye or no : Stella clericorum Mundi precium proiieitur in sterquilinium id est in o● immundi sacerdotis . but he shall there finde rather worse . For it is there written , sith that the Prieste is the sepulcher of Iesus Christe , that if he doe presume to take the body of Iesus with his polluted mouth , he doth worse then if he threwe it in the durte or mire : But which is more , he casteth it into a priuie . Iudge therefore Eusebius , whether that good God whom they haue forged , be honestly lodged , and whether he haue not a tombe and sepulcher very precious and according to his dignitie .

Eusebius .

If there are some wicked Priests who did vnreuerently handle Iesus Christ , and who did dishonour their office , must ye therfore despise the estate , which is so worthy and excellent , and blaspheame Iesus Christ in such sorte ?

Hillarius .

When did you euer heare vs blaspheme Iesus Christ , & speake vnreuerently of god ? do you thinke ther is no difference betwene Iesus christ the true sauiour of the world . As for me I finde as much difference , as is betwen the true God of Israel & the gods of the The true God and that of the Priestes . Babilonians and other Idolaters . Wherfore if you will accuse me of blasphemy , when I will not receiue those newe gods , and that I speake in such sort , you shall be also compelled to accuse the Prophets of the same crime , when they doe so often mocke at the strange gods . But wherefore are you not rather offended with them , then with mée , who haue not inuented any thing but do speake only after them ? To what purpose doe they call the Priestes the Sepulcher The Sepulchre of Iesus Christ Act. 1. a. 2 Rom 6. b. 9 of Iesus Christ ? Is not Iesus Christ risen agayne and ascended into heauen ? doth not the Apostle say . Christ once raised from death dyeth no more . For as much then as Iesus Christ liueth eternally at the right hand of god his father what needeth he of a sep●lohre , especially of such as these are ? When he dyed for our sinnes he had his sepulchre in Hierusalem , in which Ioseph of Aramathia and Nicodemus Mat. 2● . g. ●7 Mar. 15. d. 42 Luc. 23. g 50 Iohn . 19 g. 35 dyd bury him in . They dyd not as the Scithians , eate him fleshe and bones and bury him in their bellyes and entrayles . But in a goodly new sepulchre , hewen in stone . The priestes then camib● saye that they are that sepulchre in which Iesus Christ was put , and out of which he rose againe . Wherefore if they be the sepulchres of Iesus Christ , it must be that he is dead sithence , and that he was buryed in theyr bellyes . For I cannot vnderstande how he could be buryed , if they haue not eaten him , as the Scithians dyd eate theyr parents and friends . And if you doe thinke that I tell you a thing that is strange , consider and marke well the woords that the Apostle hath wrytten to the Hebrewes . The sacrifice of Iesu Christ Heb. 7. d. 27. & 9. c. 12 He witnesseth that Iesus Christ was once offered , and he shal be no more Afterward telleth the cause . For if he must be often offered he must dye often , sith that there is no sacrifice without effusion of bloud . Yet the priestes say that they doe offer and sacrifice really euery day Iesus Christ ; it followeth necessarily , that either they do put him to death , & that he dyeth agayne , or els that the holy Apostle is an euil Logicioner , & that he concludeth euilly , & knoweth not the rules and lawes of his Silogismes and consequences . If it be so the Priestes may well be called the Sepulchers of Iesus Christ , but not of the true Iesus Christ whom Saint Stephen Marc. 16. d. 19 Luc. 24. g. 51 Act. 1. b. 9 did sée at the righte hande of God , who as the Apostle witnesseth , dyeth no more : vnto whome I giue more credite , then vnto all the Priests and Monkes which euer were or shall be . And therefore eyther it must bée that they haue forged a newe Iesus Christ , that dyeth and riseth agayne euery day and as often as they list , and that they are all lyers : or els that the Apostle hath written against the truth , the which is impossible . Wherefore it followeth , that the first part of my proposition is true .

Eusebius .

Doe you not beléeue that the Priestes haue power to consecrate the body and bloude of Iesus , and that they eate it flesh and bones , as grose and as bigge as he was To eate Iesus Christ . on the crosse ?

Hillarius .

I doe aske you an other question , when they haue eaten the flesh & the bones , what do thy with the skinne ? And how they could dine vpon Christmas day , after that they haue eaten him thrée times . For me thincketh they should haue their bellies too ful & strouted . Also wherefore De consecra distic . 2. in glos . cap. nee Moyses . Lib. de sacram . Ioan chanois . Vtrum Christus . comederit seips●o in die coenae . Respondet quod sic . Vt communiter tenent Docto. res . Vnde versus . Re● sedet in ●oene turba ●inetus duodena . Se tenet in manibus , se cibat ipse cibus . doe you not demaund of me this question which is also very common among your deuines ? To weet whether Iesus Christ did eate himselfe ?

Thomas .

What resolution doe they giue ?

Hillarius .

That he did , you may thereby know what reason there is in their doctrine . Will you haue a more greater absurdite ? We do eate his flesh spiritually for to haue life : But he who is the life , what néede hath he to eat himselfe ? And if Iesus Christ did eat himselfe , it must be that he hath two bodies : the one which eateth , and the other which was eaten . O Lord God , what dreams are these ? But if your Priests do eat the flesh and the bones , they are worse then the Scithians . For they were content with the flesh of man , without eating the bones . Neuerthelesse to the ende that you do not thincke that I will gainsay the word of Iesus Christ , and that I am some Caparnaite , who is offended with the preachinge that he made , of eating his flesh and Caparnaites Iohn . 6. f. 55 To eate Iesus Christ three waies . drincking his bloud , or as the hearers who did forsake it . I aunswere that there is thrée wayes to eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christ . The true manner the which he would teach vs by his worde , and that hée would represent and frequent in the holy supper is spirituall The spirituall ●nanducation Iohn . 6. g. 63 and not carnall , as he himselfe witnesseth , sayinge . It is the spirite that quickeneth , the fleshe profiteth nothing . The woordes that I haue sayde are spirite and lyfe .

Theophilus .

That is not ment that the fleshe of Iesus Christ doth not profite any thing the faithful , sith that he himselfe calleth it the bread which came downe from heauen , without which we cannot haue life , nourishment , nor saluation . But the carnall sence and vnderstandinge of hys woordes , and suche intelligence as the Cape●naites , and hearers that were offended had , is the fleshe eaten in such sorte as they vnderstande it . For when wée shall haue the very fleshe of Iesus Christ in our mouth , and that wée doe crashe it wyth our téeth , and disgest it in our stomack , it profiteth vs no more then to Iudas to haue kissed him , and to the hangmen to haue touched him , yea , to bée sprinckled in hys bloude , and to haue had his garmentes . For Iesus Christ doth profite nothinge béeing knowen after the flesh , except he be knowen through fayth , by the whiche hée filleth and satisfieth vs also wyth his fleshe and bloude . Therefore it is not néedefull that he discende from heauen , nor that he remoue from place to place , for to feede vs in that manner wyth his fleshe and bloude , The presence of Iesus christ and for to bée present wyth vs and in the middest of vs . For he dwelleth in our heartes by fayth , and lyueth in vs , and quickeneth vs by his holy spirit . Wherfore he calleth Ephe. 3. c. 17 Rom. 8. b. 1● The Temple of God . 1. Cor. 6. d. 19 2. Cor. 6. d. 16. not the faythfull , hys sepulchre , but the temple of the liuing God . For hée is not deade in the heartes of the faythfull , but lyueth there and the faythfull by hym . Euen as then the sunne is present wyth vs , althoughe it descende not from heauen into the earth , and maketh vs to féele hys vertue and power , it illuminateth vs , and through his heate and brightnesse nourisheth and quickeneth both man and beastes , better then if it were héere in earth with vs : euen so Iesus Christ , that greate sonne of righteousnesse through his diuine power and vertue of his holye spirite , doth gyue vnto our soules and bodyes hys flesh and his bloude , and doth nourishe and fill vs and maketh vs to feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion , and of his body and bloude , that hée hath gyuen for vs , better then if we did eate his flesh with our téeth and there dyd deuoure and swallow it in wyth his bloud in our stomacke : insomuch that there is not a body which is so well nourished and fedde wyth bread and wine , that hée eatcth and drincketh , as the faythfull who with a true and liuely faith commeth vnto him . , and receyueth his woorde and communicateth the Sacramentes that he hath ordayned , is filled and satisfied wyth his flesh and his bloude . For hée Iohn . 6. d. 31. hath sayde : he that commeth to mée shall not hunger , and he that beléeueth on mée shall neuer thurst . If he that commeth and beléeueth in him shall no more hunger nor thurst , it followeth then that in beléeuing and communicating his Sacramentes , hée hath eaten and dronken and is satisfied .

Hillarius .

That sufficeth which you haue nowe spoken off ( friend Theophilus ) for to proue my meaning . For we haue not at this present neyther better time nor fitter occasion for to pursue more fully that matter . But I wil not graunt vnto thée Eusebius , that the Priestes doe eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christe after that sorte . For sith that they séeke his carnall presence , they depriue themselues of his spiritual presence , according to the witnesse of the Apostle which sayth : Wée haue an Aulter Heb. 13. c. 10 whereoff they maye not eate whiche serue in the Tabernacle . If those who doe serue in the Tabernacle of Moses , and put yet all their affiaunce in the leuitical Ceremonies and sacrifices , are shutte out and depriued from the true sacrifice of Iesus Christe , what communion can those haue wyth hym , who haue altogether ouerthrowen his Sacramentes and Ordinaunces , and haue founde out and inuented newe sacrifices , more intollerable then euer the Iewes vsed ? There is an other manner to eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christ , the which The carnall manducation Capernaites I cannot graunt vnto them , that is , the carnall eating , as the Caparnaites dyd vnderstande it , euen as one eateth the fleshe of the butchery . Iesus Christe whiche is at the ryght hande of God cannot bée eaten after that sorte .

For hée is the breade of Angels and of the true chyldren of God , and of his shéepe and not of Dogges , Wolues , Hogges , Lyons and wilde beastes . But I wyll graunte vnto them the thirde manner to eate Iesus Christ , and The papistical manducation . doe confesse wyth thée that they doe eate it truelye , reallye , and essentiallye , not onely in flesh and bones , but which is more ( least you shoulde accompte mée for an hereticke ) besides the flesh and bones , they doe eate the skinne , and breake the bones for to sucke out the marrowe that is therein , bycause they haue founde suche good taste in the meate .

Thomas .

If they doe so , they doe worse then the Iewes . For they brake not a bone of Iesus Christ .

Theophilus .

That was bicause that it was necessarye that in him should be fulfilled which was figured & represented The hones of Iesus Christ are whole Iohn . 19. f. 33 The pascall Lambe . Bxo. 12. 2. 5 by the pascall Lambe , of which they must leaue his bones whole . For we cannot haue Iesus Christ , but that we must haue him whole , & his vertue & power cannot be broken by death it selfe .

Thomas .

I haue not yet very wel vnderstood you .

Hillarius .

I will declare it vnto thée by a cléere demonstration , & by euident arguments . Diddest thou not first confesse vnto me , that all the true faithfull are the true members of Iesus Christ ?

Thomas .

I confesse it .

Hillarius .

If they be members of Iesus Christ , they are then his body , of which he is the head , as the Apostle doth witnesse in many places .

Thomas .

I doe agrée vnto you Induction Members of Iesus Christ . 1. Cor. 12. b. 12 Rom. 12. b. 5 in that .

Hillarius .

Forasmuch then as the faithfull are the body of Iesus Christ , you will also graunt mée , that those which eate the faithfull and poore widowes & orphants , doe eate Iesus Christ . And if you will denie it , I will proue it To persecute Iesus Christ . Act 9. 〈◊〉 . 4 by that that Iesus Christ sayd vnto Saul , saying : Saul , Saul , why persecutest thou me ? In the same manner then as Iesus Christ doth complaine himselfe to be persecuted when his members are : So may I say , without digressinge from the Scripture , that those eate Iesus Christ that do eat his members .

Thomas .

But you haue not yet proued , that the Priests doe eate the members of Iesus Christ .

Hillarius .

It hath ben alredy proued by the things that were spoken before . For haue I not already tolde thée , how they doo eate both the quicke & dead ? But least thou shouldest thincke that I speake without the Scripture , beholde his witnesse . What doe you vnderstande by that rebuke and checke that God did vnto the tyrants and enemies of his people , when he complained that they denoured Iacob , To eate Iacob . and his people , as a morsell of bread . Psa. 79. b. 7 Psa. 53. a. 5 Psa. 14. a. 4

Thomas .

The places doe declare inough of themselues . For he complaineth that his enemies are come into his enheritage , and haue destroyed his people , which is signified by Iacob , of whom did procéede & come the twelue tribes of Israel . That is a manner of speaking common in all tongues . Euen so doe we saye that a man is burned when his house is burned , also wée do call the great théeues , couetous persons , Metonimia . Virg. Aene. 2 Vealegon ardet . Deuourers . tyrantes , rauishers and vsurers the consumers and deuourers of the poore people , widowes and Fatherlesse children , not that they ease and deuoure mans flesh , but bicause they destroy and deuoure their substaunce , and many times cause them to dye for very pouertie and lacke .

Hillarius .

You haue alredy concluded the which I would haue concluded . We cannot denie , but that the Priests and Moonkes doe deuoure all the substance of the poore Christian Gods heritage . 1. Pet. 5. a. 3 people , which is the true heritage of God , and the true Iacob whome they haue consumed , wasted , and deuoured more cruelly then the Babilonians did vnto the Israelites . For to make you better to vnderstande the effect & sumine of our disputation , I will comprehend it in a little sillogysme Sillogismus in darii . and playne conclusion . Whosoeuer eateth the poore , eateth the body of Christ . The Priestes doe eate the poore : wherefore it followeth infallibly that they eate the body of Iesus Christ . The sillogisme is good , for it is in his inode and dialecticall and logicall figure . It néedeth no more for to proue the premisses and the Antecedent . For you haue already graunted it vnto me by your aunsweres . You doe then sée now friend Eusebius , that I am not an heretick , noither after God nor after the Pope . For I doe confesse the true and spirituall manducation of the body of Iesus Christ , & the very papisticall manducation , which is more truer then it is in the bookes of your Doctors . I doe then thinck that you ought to content your selues with vs , & that the Pope ought not to pursue vs to the fire , & to such cruell death , for that Article . For I beléeue that there is none of all those whom you doe condemne for hereticks , who are not ready to confesse as muche as I. And if you will compell them further , me thinckes you doe them wronge . For what can they confesse any more , without speakinge againste the truth ? Nowe it resteth that I doe proue howe they doe To eate the skinne and the bones . eat the skinne and breake the bones for to haue the marrowe . Wherefore I will take for my warrant and aduocate in this cause chiefly Michea amonge the Prophetes , who speakinge both of them and of their like , accuseth them after this manner , sayinge . Ye hate the good and loue Mich. 3. 2. 2. the euill : ye plucke off mens skinnes and fleshe from their bones : ye eate the fleshe of my people , and flaye off their skinne : ye breake their bones , ye choppe them in péeces as it were into a Cauldron , and as flesh into a Pot. And as concerning the Prophetes that deceiue my people , thus the Lorde saith againste them : When they haue anye thinge to bite vpon , then they preache that all shall bée well : But if a man putte not some thinge into theyre A sop in the throte . mouthes , they preache of warre against him . I doe neuer read those wordes of Micheah , consideringe the auarice and rapacite of our false teachers and shepheards , Shepheards feeding themselues . who doe feede themselues , not the Lordes flocke , but that mée thinckes I sée before mine eyes that greate Bze . 34. 2. 2. Serberus the porter of hell . and hidious Cerberus the dogge and porter of Hell , with his thrée heades , whiche hée hath for to deuoure , eate , and swallowe vp all that commeth vnto hym , if one doe not cast a sop into his mouth , euen as Aeneas and Sibyle did , accordinge to Virgiles discription , who hathe sette out his rage and vnsatiable madnesse , speakinge after this sort .

There Cerberus , infernall hound , with throates wide open three , Vir Aene. 6. Doth hawle with barking noise , at Lymbo mouth full huge to see . Whose neck when Sibly sawe with startling snakes to swelling fixt , A sop of bread with sleepy seedes and Honny sweete commixt . Against his throat she threw , he gaping wide his threefolde iawes , All hungry caught that gub , & couching straite with stretched paws . He bowed his boistrous backe , and on the ground himselfe he spred , Encombring all the caue , and groueling lay with slombry head .

We haue a great number of such dogs , who although Dumme dogs and cryers . they are mute for to preach the word of God , for to crye against the abuses , vices and offences , for to chase and driue away the Wolues from the folde & to defend the shéepe , neuerthelesse are not mute , but great cryers against the true seruaunts of God who cease not to barke , bite & deuoure , except for to haue them quiet , one do cast them some bone or sop in their mouth . Now thincke if that infernall monster & mad dog , who hath but thrée heads and one belly , be so hungry and insatiable , what ought we to estéeme of so many Cerberus , and of so many gluttons who haue so many heads & bellies , which are as the great goulfes of the sea . It is not then without cause that the prophets comparing such shepherds to those great masties & dumme dogs , shamelesse idle knaues Esa. 56. c. 11 and insatiable , & vnto Lyons & rauening Wolues who haue eaten nothing vntil Euening , who do flay the skinne , eat the flesh , afterwards doe breake the hones and cast them into the pot for to eate and deuoure them , and yet cannot bée satisfied and filled . Wherefore I cannot beléeue but that Salomon by the spirite of GOD hath foreséene and spake of that generation , and that hée minded to paynte Prouer. 30. b. 14. it out vnto vs , when he sayde : There are a people whose téeth are swoordes , and wyth their chaffe bones they consume & deuoure the simple of the earth , and the poore from amonge men . The Horseléech hath two daughters , the The daughters of the horselech . Horat in art. Poet. one is called fetche hether , and the other bringe hether .

Theophilus .

Hée sayeth not wythout cause that shée Non missura cutem nisi plena cruoris hirudo . The insatiable thinges . Pro. 30. b. 16 hath two daughters . For shée hath two throates , and draweth the bloude from one side to the other . But I am not abashed , but of that that when hée nombreth the thinges that are not satisfied he hath also added those which are the most insatiable of all . He sayth , that there be thrée things that are neuer satisfied , and the fourth sayth neuer hoe . That is to saye , hell , a womans wombe , and the earth hathe neuer water inoughe , as for fire it sayth neuer hoe . One may very well adde to these for the fift .

Hillarius .

It is no néede . For among these foure , they are alredy conteined in two for fault of one . Hath not Salomon The fire insatiable . spoken of the fire , who neuer saith hoe . For one cannot finde so much as it consumeth . There was neuer fire , that molted and consumed so much goods , as the fire of their Purgatory & of their kitchin which is of the same nature . Againe , is not the hell comprised among those insatiable things ? Hell or the graue insatiable . May wée not well speake that of them which Dauid hath written of his enemies ? saying : their throat is an open sepulchre . Psa. 5. c. 10 And that which Esay speaketh off , saying : hell gapeth and openeth hir mouth meruailous wide . For of all Esa. 5. 6. 14. that they can once lay hand on , nothing euer retourneth againe , no more then from the mouth of hell and graue . But which is worse the graue consumeth & deuoureth but the dead bodies : but these do deuour both the quick & the dead : And we may very wel say that these are the Harpyes of whom Harpyes . Vir. Aene. 9 Virginei volucrum v●ltus , fodissima ventri● Proluuies , vnca que manus , & pallida semper . Ora fame . Painted Sepalchres . Mat. 29 b. 14 Mar. 12. d. 39 Luc. 20. g. 47 The ornaments of the painted Sepulc●res . Virgile maketh mention off . But bicause they are faire and goodly sepulchres , as the Scribes & Pharises who do neuer cease to crye : Corban , Corban , giue , giue , offer , offer : and as the daughter of the Horseléech . Bringe , bringe to the candles of the good Sainct . Bicause they are so beautifull & pollished without , the poore world cannot know them , although they do sée them deuoure & eate vp widowes houses before their eies , vnder colour of long praiers . For they haue those goodly habites of religion , goodly Ornaments , Ceremonies , goodly names & titles , and that goodly appearaunce of holinesse , which do couer & beautifie those sepulchres & tombes , in such sort that men cannot perceiue the filthinesse & infection that is there hidden and kepte close within , but passe ouer it without any aduisement , as men doe by the Sepulchres .

Theophilus .

They are more open and dyscouered then néede required . For GOD hathe nowe raysed vppe a people whome they woulde not haue , who haue in suche sorte remoued all that filthe and infectyon that it stincketh throughoute the whole worlde . And we must not be abashed if they call them the Sepulchers Sepulchers of Iesus Christ . of Iesus Christ , and though they doe meruaylously stincke , sith that Iesus Christ is altogether deade in them , and to them , and that they haue nothing at all . For if Christ lyue not in vs , what other thing can wée bee , but dead carryons , stincking and infectious , who doe not onely rotte and consume themselues , but doe rotte and consume with them all other things ?

Eusebius .

All of you doe cry out agaynst the Priestes . Haue you now all sayd ? It was not inough for Hillarie to speake euill and backebite , but that you must ayde and helpe him Theophilus , and meddle also as well as hée .

Theophilus .

You neuer sawe a man that delyteth lesse The difference betweene to speake 〈◊〉 euill and to speake truth . to speake euill and backebite , and to heare euill speakinge and tales : But truth constrayneth mee , and you oughte to vnderstande , that to speake truth for the health of ones neighbour , is not to speake euill , backebite , and slaunder any man . Would to God I coulde speake as much good of them , as of the Apostles . For I doe loue better to praise their vertue , charitie and mercy , then to dispise their vices , crueltie , auarice , and rapacitie . But what will you that I speake ? If I doe sée a poore man , who is wandring alone in a forrest , or woode full of théeues , am not I bounde to giue him warning of the daunger he is lyke to fall in ?

If I say nothing vnto him , am not I guyltie of his death sith that I knew the daunger : And if I encourage him to enter , and tell him that there is no daunger , am not I then more culpable and worthy to be taken for a murtherer of my poore brother ? But if I doe admonish him of the daungers and of the théeues . Doe I wrong vnto the theenes in callyng them by their name ? Shoulde I doe better and according to Gods commaundemet to call them good people for to saue their honour , and that I should put my brother into their handes to haue them to cutte his throate ?

What goodnesse can I finde in those , who from the greatest All Papisticall Priestes excommunicated , to the least are al excommunicated & iudged Simoniacks and Heretickes , vnworthy of all Ecclesiasticall honour and office ? not onely by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures , To take money for the sacraments & ec●lcsiastical offices Gela. Papa . l. quae 〈◊〉 Baptiz ●●dis Item Ca●●st 〈◊〉 Grego . Naziāze c 1. 3 Q●i stude : Ambr. de my●te ca. cum ordina●●ntur Item can Q●busdam & pueri but also by their owne councells , decrées , and Canons .

For how many Councells , Decrées and Canons be there that doe forbid to demaunde and take , giftes , rewardes , presents , hire or siluer , nor any thing whatsoeuer it bée , for creame , baptisme , orders , laying on of hands : for the earth , nor Sepulture , neyther for Sacraments nor whatsoeuer office is in the Church , vnder payne of excommunication , and to be holden and reputed Simoniackes , Heretickes , and Sacriledgers , and depriued and deposed from theire offices and honours ? and not onely they that receiue the money , but also those who doe giue it for such things .

Thomas .

There shall be then by that compte no Christian , who shall not be excommunicated . For among the priests Papists excommunicated there is not one but hath receiued money for such thinges , nor among the people but hath disbursed somewhat .

Theophilus .

Therefore you may consider what communion may be in the Popish Church . For Saint Peter did Act 8. d. 20 not only curse , in the authoritie of God Symon the Sorcerer , of whome Simony and Simoniackes haue taken their Simony & Simontack . name , but also the money that he offred for to buy the gifte of God withall . Now if Symon for offering the money hath receiued such malediction , what ought it to be vppon them that doe cleane contrary to Saynt Peter , who doe not onely receiue but also doe compell the poore people to giue it them ? I doe not héereby meane that the true Euangelycall Priests , and true Pastors of the Church , are not worthy of their nourishment and rewarde : But I speake agaynst Merchaunts in the Churc● 1. Pet. 2. 2 3 those Merchaunts which are in the Church of God , whom Saynt Peter hath forespoken , who haue both GOD and the Diuill to sell , Paradise ●nd Hell , holy things and prophane things , and which doe exercise merchandises of all things , and are polluted and d●fil●d with all Simonie Plati in v●ta Leon● pont. 2. Conc●liu● . Elbertinum . Ex cnoci . Telet 11. Ca. and Sacriledges , that they themselues haue bene constrayned to condemone them . And he that will not beléeue me , lette him read Platine in the lyues of the Popes , and the decrees of the Councell of Elybertine holden in Spayne , in the time of Constantine : and that of Tholet , holden in the Quiequid . ●x ●yno . ca. 6. Nuil●s . ●x conc . Calc . 1. q. 1. cap. Si quis . Ex conc . Carth. 4. cap Placuit . Emendan . Dictum . Conc● . Tiburiensis . The selling of the buriall . Psal. 24. a. 1. Math. 10. a 8. yeare . 713 : and that of Calcedone : And the 4. of Carthage : And the Councell of Tiburien and Varensian , who doe condempne namely those that take money for the buryalls , saying after this manner : Wherefore dost thou sell the earth ? Remember that thou art earth , and into the earth shalt retourne agayne . For the earthe is not mans , but as ( the Psalmist Dauid witnesseth ) the earth is the Lords , and all that therein is : If thou doe sell the earth , thou shalt be holden guyltie of larcenie , as he that attributeth vnto himselfe the thing of an other mans . Thou hast receyued it of God fréely , giue it fréely . And bicause it is altogether forbidden to all Christians , to sell the earth vnto the dead , and to deny vnto them the graue and burial which is due vnto them .

Item , we must commaunde according to the authoritie Ex con . Vatensi . cap. Praecipiendum . Grego . in Registro . Ianuarius bishoppe . Nereida . 13. q. 2. cap. Questa est . Ephron . Gene. 23. b. 10 of the Canons , that one should not demaunde or receiue any thing for mens burialls , nor for their graues . And hée that would sée the opinion of Gregorie , lette him reade the Epistle , wherein he rebuked Ianuarius Bishop of Sardinia , for that he asked money of Ne●eida , a noble woman , for the sepulture and burying of hir daughter . And for to make him more ashamed , he propounded vnto him the example of the Panim Ephron , and the honestie that he vsed towards Abraham touching his fielde for the buryall of his wife . What shall we say friende Eusebius of those poore blynde men , blynded thorow their auarice , who so openly speake agaynst the worde of God , and all Councells and Canons ? May not we rebuke and checke them with that , that Tertulian Tertulian Apolog. aduer. Gent. ca. 13. Tributary gods and to be sold . rebuked the Gentiles and Panims , saying : The Gods that are most tributaryes and the greatest gyuers , are to you the most holyest , but for to speake better , those that are the holyest , are the greatest gyuers and trybutaryes . Their maiestie is put to sale and valued and is estéemed after the gayne that it bryngeth . Your begging Relygion , goeth about in Tauerns , Shops and Markets , Begging Religion . for to begge . Ye demaunde money for the pauement and bourding of the Temple , for the entring into the Temple and holy places . It is not lawful for to know your Gods without money Tertul. in Apo●duer . Gent a. 42 Begging Gods Vnto whome we must giue . or rewarde , for they are to be solde . We cannot suffice or haue inoughe both for men and for your begging gods , and lette vs not thinke that we are bounde to giue vnto any other , then vnto those that aske it . If Iupiter then will haue it , lette him put foorth his hande . For our mercy doth bestow more goodes throughout all the stréete , then your relygion throughout all your Temples . Hée The charity of the auncient Christians . declareth by those woordes that the auncient Christians bestowed not their goodes in buylding of Temples , setting vp of Idolls , and in offring to them sacrifices , and in féeding of those Caphards & false Prophets , and in the meane season to suffer the poore to perishe with hunger , about in the stréetes : but doe bestow them in nourishing and féeding of those that were among them . Therefore he complayneth in the name of all the Christians , that sith that they haue bestowed already so much goodes for to nourishe and féede the poore , they cannot prouide sufficient to giue so much vnto the Idolls and Gods of the Panims , who doe neuer cease to aske and begge . He thinketh in his iudgement that the Christians haue inough to doe to kéepe and prouide for the poore that are among them , without bestowing so much cost and charge to keepe and prouide for the Gods of the Panims , who are more costlye then the poore . What will he then now saye if hée did sée the Priestes The tributaries of the Priestes . who are called Christians and Lieuetenants of Saint Peter , to gather and receiue tribute of the Gods , of Images , of the quicke and the dead , and to make Gods , and men , the quicke and the deade tributaries , and to compell the poore Christians to maynetayne and keepe so rychly theire false Gods and Prophets , the bones and the carcases of the dead , and to be at such great charge and expences vppon the dead , and in the meane time doe suffer the poore members of Iesus Christ and the lyuely Images of God to perish with hunger . May he not rightly say , that all the Christian Relygion is no other thing now , but a very beggery ? And the Gods that are there of the beggers , doe neuer any other thinge but begge , and that the deade d●e spende more then those that be alyue .

Hillarius .

These are daungerous beggers . For they Daungerous beggers . are lyke vnto those lusty and stout beggers , who will chide and beate people , when they will not giue them that they would haue : and sometimes they doe cutte Merchaunts throates . At the beginning they doe séeme but as though they did begge . And therefore they haue found out so many abuses , for to make their begging the better worth , and for to still theire scrippe the better . Afterwardes in the ende they make men to giue by force . But among all their inuentions , they neuer had any that brought them more gayne , then the God Pluto and his furnaces of Purgatorie . God P●uto . The furnaces of Purgatorie Alcumistes For there they doe make the Philosophicall stone , and by those doe impouerish all the whole worlde , as the Alcumistes deceiue those who do muse after their furnaces . But these are more craftye and subtile . For they do enrich themselues with other mens pouertie , and the Philosophicall The Philosophicall stone . stone is alwayes good for them . And if God would not haue had that the fire shoulde haue begunne in those furnaces , as Theophilus hath sayd , all the whole worlde would haue gone to ruyne , and there woulde nothing haue bene lefte .

Thomas .

I haue desired of longe time to vnderstande , how that fire hath begunne there , by what meanes , and by whom . But you haue not yet declared it vnto me .

Hillarius .

I am content to tell vnto you . First , that The mouers of sedition of Purgatorie . that I doe vnderstande and know , and who haue bene the mouers of sedition , which were the causes of that great offence , and afterwardes Theophilus shall tell you his aduice , which I doubte not but that it is better then mine . Sithens that Paradise and Hell were so shutte vp , and that there arryued dayly suche a greate number of soules in Purgatory , and haue bene kepte there so longe time , there is no doubt , but that it must néedes be that the fire was very great , for to kéepe such a rosting and for to warme and make hot the kitchin and for to seethe the potte of so many Priestes and Moonkes , who are dispersed and scattered abreade throughout all Christendome to so great a number , there is no Arithmetician , how cunning soeuer he be in his A●te , which can caste or number them . And yet neuerthelesse all the fire that was in theire kitchin begun of Purgatory . For they , neyther their family ( which is not lyttle ) doe eate no meate but that which is boyled and sodden in that fire . For you oughte to vnderstande , that forasmuch as the number of the soules do become very many , and that Purgatory was the better furnished , so much the more greater did the fire kindle in their kitchin . For the reuenew was very great . Wherfore it must néedes be also that the trayne did encrease & augment , and that after Requiem , one should sing Gaudeamus . And the more they did The gaudeamus of the pres●es sée the fire to burn the more they did blow it . To be short al went by the disshes . They did cast the house out of the windows . There was no more question but to blow the coale , to reioyce and tryumphe , insomuch that they themselues did make the fire .

Thomas .

I doe not yet very well vnderstande your meaning , except you doe speake more playnly .

Hillarius .

I meane that they are fedde and nourished so fatte and bigge about that kitchin , and haue inuented so many fables and lyes , for to mayntayne and augment that fire , that they haue vncouered and bewrayed themselues : and also haue done such wicked and most execrable things that whether men woulde or no , they haue bene constrayned to open their eyes , & to know that they were but deceiuers and seducers of the people , and that all their doctrine was nothing but fables and lyes , and especially by theire Croysarde , which hath brought forth Luther in place , who The croyaards was the first that discouered their disceyte .

Theophilus .

It is very true , that that which you say hath serued for some thing . For where Iesus Christ hath Mat. 5. b. 16 commaunded his Disciples that their lyght should so shine before men , that they seeing their good workes might be induced to glorifie God : Those héere haue so lyghted and kindeled the fire of their Purgatory , that euery one beginneth to sée the darke places wherein they haue put vs . But that were but a small thing , if God thereby had not sent from Heauen another fire , more vehement and burning , which The celestiall and euangelical fyre Gene. 19. e. 24. Psa. 103. b. 8 Nomb. 14. d. 18. Exo. 34. a. 7. hath burned and consumed it altogether .

Thomas .

Did the lyghtening fall vppon it , or the fire and brimstone that consumed Sodoma and Gomorra ?

Theophilus .

Not yet . For God who is full of compassion and mercy , and longe suffering , will not sodainly vse such rigor and vengeaunce . And therefore the fire that he hath sent is more for to illuminate and make hotte , then for to burne and cousume . But it is of such a nature and force that it draweth after it the fire of the wrath and indignation of God , vpon those which by the same will not be illuminated . That is it of which Iesus Christ speaketh off , saying : I am come to put Luc. 12. g. 49. fire on the earth : and what is my desire , but that it be kindeled . And for to declare better what is the vertue of that fire , and what fire he meaneth , he hath sent his holy Ghost vnto his Apostles and Disciples , lyke a tongue of fire , Act. 2. a. 3 Mat. 3. c. 11 Act. 1. a 5 The true fire of purgatory . witnessing thereby , that it is hée , of whome Iohn Baptist hath spoken , saying : who shall baptize you with the holy Ghost and with fire . That is a fire that hath an other vertue , then to purge the purses of the poore sinners . For it purgeth in deede the soules , the which none other fire can doe . And therefore he hath sent his Apostles for to carry Mat. 28. d. 19. Mar. 16. c. 15 Luc. 24. c. 36 Iohn . 20. a. 22 Esa. 2. c. 25 that fire , and to sette on fire all the world , that thorow the same all sinnes , filthinesse , and iniquities should be purged in his Church as in a furnace , & that all that which was false mettall , should be so tryed and melted that nothinge should remayne but pure gold : and that all the relicks of 2. Cor. 5. d. 17. Heb. 1. a. 3 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Act. 15. b. 9 The purgatotory of Iesus Christ & that of the Pope . the olde Adam should be burned and consumed , in suche sorte that all the true children of God should be made new creatures throughe the power and vertue of Iesus Christ , who alone hath made the purgation of our sinnes , puryfying our hearts through fayth , washing and making them cleane with his precious bloude .

Hillarius .

Behold a Purgatorye much differing from the other . For in the other they doe nothing without money , but in this heere we must not haue any .

Theophilus .

But he that will giue and offer vnto it is accursed of God , and sent to hell fire , as it appeareth by the reprehension that Saint Peter did so rigorously vnto Symon the Sorcerer , cursing both him and his money that Act s. d 10 he offered .

Hillarus .

I am not abashed , althoughe hée were a begger . For he was very rigorous and cruell vnto those that did bring him money . Those that say they are his successours haue not done the lyke : But cleane contrary , that is , that he that will be best welcome vnto them , Exo. 13. b. 15 Deut. 10. d. 16 must not come emptie handed . For it is wrttten : Thou shalt not appeare before the Lord emptie . They haue well aduised on those places that speake of bringing , for to make them serue for their gayne and profite : although that they doe vnderstande nothing of them . And therefore they say vnto those that doe bring any thing vnto them : Intra in gaudium Domini tui : Enter into the ioye of thy Lord. Centuplum accipies , & vitam aeternam possidebis . Thou shalt receiue an hundreth times as much , and possesse eternall lyfe .

Theophilus .

Saint Peter studyed in an other schoole , and remembred the commaundement that the maister gaue vnto him saying : Freely ye haue receyued , fréely gyue . Mat. 10. 28. And for that cause hath hée himselfe preached in his name , saying : ye were not redéenied with corruptible things , as 1. Pet. 1. d. 18 siluer and golde , from your bayne conuersation , which yée receyued by the traditions of the fathers : but with the precious bloud of Christ , as of a Lambe vndefiled , and without spot . Forasmuch then as it is so , are not those men The panishmē ? vppon those which re●ect the gospell , & doe go to a strange fire worthy to be cast into euerlasting fire , if they doe reiecte such grace , when it is presented and offered vnto them ? and if they refuse to bée purged with that celestiall fire , which was not sent vnto them for to consume them , but for to saue them ?

Hillarius .

Wée must not doubte of it .

Theophilus .

All other fire then besides that is a straunge fire , the which the Lord hath forbidden , willing & commaunding Leuit. 10. a. r. Nomb. 16 g. 46. Nomb. 26. g. 26. Esai . 6. c. 6. that we should vse onely the same of his temple and aulter , of which the Seraphin tooke and brought the cole in his hand , wherewith he purged the lippes and mouth of Esay . Also they ought to way and consider the example of Dathan and Dathan and Abiron . Nomb. 16. e. 31. Abiron and what profit they receiued in offering of straunge fire , other then that which was commaunded of God . They offered it , but it was to their owne hurt and destruction . For God kindled fire against them and they were burned and consumed , as the Babilonians were wyth the fire of their furnace . Danl. 3. c. 22. Nadab and Abihu . Leuit. 10. a. 1. And if God dyd not pardon Nadab and Abihu the proper sonnes of Aaron , but caused them to bée burned and consumed openly in the sight of all the people , onelye bicause that through negligence they did take other fyre then of the Temple , doe they thincke that hée will support and beare rather wyth those who dyspise the fire of Iesus Christ his sonne , and of his holy Ghost : Therefore hee sayde not wythout a cause , when hée did sende his Dysciples for to bringe that fire , sayinge : When you shall enter into any Citte or house , if they wyll not ●●●●ue you , Mat. 10. b. 14. shake off the dust of your féete in a witnesse agaynst them . For truely I saye it shall bée easier for the lande of Sodoma and Gomorra in the daye of iudgement , then for those of that generation . Wherefore I sayd but euen now the that celestiall fire draweth with it the fire & brimstone , which consumed Sodoma and Gomorra . For he that shall not be purged by that fire in this world , it is necessary that he be consumed in that hell fire . And therefore it is better for vs that we doe holde our selues vnto that Purgatory , sith that it hath pleased God to bring vs thether agayne , then to séeke an other , which in steede to purge vs , doth burne vs in hell fire .

Thomas .

If it be so , it is a greate deale better . But I would gladly know how that fire hath bene quenched out so long time , and now kindled againe .

Theophilus .

You may well vnderstand that when men woulde kindle an other , they must quenche out thys heere , and also wh● men wold build an other Purgatory , they must ruinate and destroy that of Iesus Christ . For they cannot agrée together : and it is impossible that the one can endure & continue with the other , sith that the one purgeth without The cause wherefore the purgatory of Iesus Christ hath bene vnknowne . money ; through the onely grace of God , and the other is an insatiable goulfe , which melteth & consumeth all the golde & siluer of the world , neither purgeth it the sinnes , but maketh all those guiltie of hell fire that séeke in it their purgation .

Hillarius .

I doe compte him to be foolish & mad that had rather consume and wast all his substaunce for to buy hell , then to receiue Paradise fréely , which shal cost him nothing .

Thomas .

In hearinge you speake , I am greatly estonied to see how men haue chaunged their nature . For they do all willingly runne to the best chepe , & there is none but bad rather receiue good merchaundise , if it coste nothinge , then to buy the bad very deere : or poyson for to kill in steede of bread which ought to nourish , & which shall be presented and offered vnto him without money .

Theophilus .

And yet neuerthelesse wée doe sée the same put in practise euery day : wherein we may well know how God hath taken away the sences and vnderstanding of men , who doe take such great pleasure to destroy themselues , and to lose both their bodies , soules and goodes : For they are mad to runne after the priests for to buy death , and refuse life , which is presented vnto them fréely and thanckfully by Iesus Christ .

Hillarius .

I beléeue it well , & behold the cause wherefore al these collyars and kitchin men , who doe liue vpon that fire , haue endcuoured themselues as much as lyeth in them , to quench out altogether the fire of the gospel of Iesus Christ , which quencheth & putteth out theirs , bicause that it is more vehement and more violent , and consumeth it into Asshes .

Thomas .

Is it then true that it is quenched euen as you say , and that there remaineth nothing whole ?

Theophilus .

There remaineth yet some chamber or cabine , which are not yet all burned . But sithence that once the fire of Iesus Christ hath begun there to kindle , it will not cease vntill such time as it hath consumed it all into Asshes , for that is a fire which none can quench .

Hillarius .

I do much meruaile that they doe not all runne for water to cast vpon it . Whereto serueth their holy water ? wherefore doe they not no we make it to shew his vertues , as well as against the lightninges & tempestes when they coniure them ?

Theophilus .

They do cleane contrary . For euery one runneth to the fire , to the fagots , to the brimstone , to the lights & to the bellowes for to make it the more to burne . And they are so hot after it that there is neyther , To put out fire by fire . King , Prince , Lord Bourgis , Merchaunt , or Labourer , whom they do not prouoke to blow their fire & to cast on fagots , in such sort that it is become so great , that men doo sée in many places that it is like to consume those that bée aliue .

Thomas .

Can they quench it by that meanes ?

Theophilus .

You are not deceiued , hath the fire of men vsed to quench the fire of God ? No , but they doe kindle it dayly more and more .

Hillarius .

I know the cause wherefore they doe it . They do greatly feare least those Lutherians and heretickes should not be dampned , and that they should not go into hell , sith that they denie the Purgatory , and that they will not enter , therefore they woulde make them to féele it in this world , and to purge them from their sinnes , & to put them in Paradise against their wils . They doe well declare thereby , that they differ from the Persians , The Persians . Cice. Tus . q. li. 1 Strab. li. 15. Volater . Herod . li. 1. 2. 4. Reg. 16. a. 3. & . 17. e. 17. 2. Cor. 28. a. 3. Psal. 106. f. 37 Lact. de sal. rel. li. 1. ca. 21 Eus. de prep. eu . li. 4. Plini . li. 7. Dtoni . Hali. Diod in . 2. biblioth. The Pope maketh princes his haugmen . who will not burne the dead bodyes , as the Greekes & Latines do , bicause they hold the fire as a God ; and they thinck that it séemeth that it was much vnséemely for his maiestie to defile himselfe with dead bodies , and to nourish him with flesh . But these héere do giue him none other meat , but do sacrifice to him men , as the Idolatres dyd God Moloch , Pluto , Saturnus , and dyd nourishe them wyth mans fleshe . But one maye replye vnto mée , and saye , that they dyd vnto him that honour to nourishe hym wyth lyue flesh .

Theophilus .

I am not so much amazed to sée them doo that , as I am to sée how they make the princes & lords their hangmen , putting into their hands those whom they would haue to be executed .

Hillarius .

They shewe themselues to bée the successors of those , who sayde vnto Pylate , speaking of Iesus Christe : we haue a lawe and by our lawe he ought to dye . But it Iohn . 19. 2. 7. is not lawfull for vs to put any man to death . And therefore they praye ayde of the seculer power , the whiche men dare not refuse . I doe thincke that many Princes & Lordes doe feare least it happen vnto them as it happened vnto Nicanor the preuost of Alexander , against the Bactrianians . Nicanor . The Hircanians and Bactrianians did vsually giue vnto the dogges those that were very olde , and did thincke it to be the Bactrianians Hircantans . best burying . For that cause the common people nourished vp common dogs for that purpose , and the riche men tame and demesticall dogges for to serue them for that purpose : Cicero . si . 1. Tus . qua . Sixt. Emper. Hiero. aduer. louin . lib. 2. Canes sepulchrales . The dogges for burying . Cal. Rhod. Lect. aut li. 17. ca. 19. Aduer . louini . li. 2. P. Rosset a princely poet . Chanons of Mont faucon . And therefore they called them in their language the dogges of Sepulchres or graue dogges . Then when Nicanor was come vnto the Bactrianians , hée endeuoured himselfe to reforme and correct that vile custome and execrable crime . But he could neuer take order to reforme it , but to the contrary as witnesseth sainct Hierome , they did rise againste him , in such sort that he had almost lost his kingdome . Now if we will consider the thinges and way them well , what are in these daies our Priests and Moonkes who do liue vpon carrion , as the dogs of the Sepulchres doo . For that cause I thincke , that Rosset the Poet of Sauoy , called the dogges , the Chanons of mount Faucon , as I haue heard him oftentimes say in his lessons . Sith them they haue vsed to eat mans flesh , it is no meruaile though men do feare them , & that they féede them deintely , as they doe in Hircania . For there is not almost any great house but hath his domestical dogs , besides those that are kept & fed commonly in euery towne & village .

Theophilus .

I doe much doubt that the same that they are afraide off will happen vnto them , sith the they wil set no good order , according to the power that God hath giuen vnto them . I do greatly feare , that in the ende those dogs wil dououre them altogether . For they haue already wel begun .

Hillarius .

Me Cicer. de nat. Deo. lib. 2. thincks that they take the Pope for Moloch , Pluto or Saturne , whom men cannot appaise without sacrificing vnto them men . The Pope woulde bée called our holy father , but that is such a father as Saturne was , who did eat his owne children Saturne and Rea. ( if the Poets haue not lyed ) but yet Rea his wife hid them from him , and kept them the he should not eate them . But the court of Rome , & the papisticall Church , who would be called our holy mother Church , doth eate them as well as our holy father : and in stéede to hide them from him , she séeketh euery where for to deuoure them with him . Wherfore we may very well giue credit to the Poets , & accompt them as Prophetes herein . For me thincks that they haue truely Ould. Fast 4. prophesied and figured 〈◊〉 those Gods which we haue . I Sueto . in Ang. would that the Princes would better aduise themselues in their doings , and that they doe not vnto the Pope , as Augustus Caesar did vnto Iulius , vnto whom he sacrificed thrée hundreth men before his Alter the ninth of March of those that yéelded themselues .

Thomas .

I know not what to say of your matters , and am much abashed that Eusebius holdeth his peace all this while without speaking any woorde , that he taketh not the quarell in hande & the matter in earnest for to defend the holy mother the church to which he beareth so great zeale . How much doth purgatory cost thée euery yere Eusebius ?

Eusebius .

I will not make thée accompt , nor I wil not haue the trumpet blowen when I do any good déede .

Thomas .

I will tell thée the cause it that be true that they say , you and I haue lost much money , & our matter fareth very euill . Wherefore me thinckes you shoulde answere something , and alledge some reason against that the they say , or otherwise me thinckes you wil be vanquished , & that you do proue all that which you haue heard of them .

Eusebius .

What reason will you that I alledge vnto people without reason ? It maketh me to tremble to heare their blasphemies , and I doe meruaile how God can suffer them , insomuch that in hearing them me thinckes that the earth should open hir mouthe and swallowe them vp . A lyttle thing would haue made me to haue gene away , and I am amazed how I could heare it so long .

Theophilus .

Haue you found our matters so out of reason .

Eusebius .

But what reason is there to mocke so wyth God & with our holy mother the Church ? I do greatly feare that God will not giue you grace to go from hence into purgatory : But that he wil send you into hell , & that you shal be of the number of those vnto whom Iesus Christ will saye : Goe ye cursed into euerlasting fire . For I wel know by your Mat. 25. d. 41 owne words that you do smell of the brimstone and fagots , and that you are rancke heretickes . I doubt not , but the there hath ben a great many burned that haue ben honester men then you are .

Hillarius .

Nor I also doubt it . she cannot denie but that the tyrants haue burned many holy Martyres , for the Gospel of Martyrs . Iesus Christ , & doe yet still vnto this day a great many honester men then we . For if they had not bene good & honest men , they would not haue by their bloud sealed the witnesse of the truth .

Thomas .

I do wel perceiue that Eusebius wil leape by and by vpon the Asse , and will be in a rage , if men do vere him much .

Eusebius .

Who would not be in a rage , bearing such matters ? It were inough to make all men aliue in a rage , that haue any zeale vnto the holy catholike Church .

Thomas .

Forasmuch as thou thinckest that wée are so farre past reason , I pray thée , to aunswere vnto that which I wil aske thée . And if thou haue any good reason , shew it foorth , for to draw mée from errour & heresie , if thou thinkest the I am fallen into any .

Eusebius .

I will not dispute nor plead with you , but I had rather follow the counsaile of sainct Paul , who commaundeth me to reiect him that is an Tit. 3. c. 10 hereticke . For it is forbidden to dispute with them . And I To dispute with Heretickes . do wel know , that I shall profit nothing , but to be peruerted , if I were not very strong in my faith . For as farre as I can perceiue , you are already to obstinate and hardned in your heresies : and as saint Paul sayth : Euill woords corrupt 1. Cor. 15. c. 33 good manners .

Theophilus .

You haue spoken your minde . But before that you do condemne vs for heretickes , we must be vanquished of heresie . And if it should be so that we should fal into any errour & heresie , yet thou canst not cal vs hereticks , except it be knowne vnto thée that we were the authours and The signification and definition of an hereticke August . 1. li. de vtilita . credend . Et. 24. quae. 3. ca. Haereticus . inuenters of sects , or that we were obstinate and hardned in errour , and that through praise , arogancie , presumption or couetousnesse , & for some worldly gaine or profit , we woulde speake against the truth . For according to S. Augustines diffinition , such men ought to be taken for heretickes . But I beséech God we be not led with such affection . And when you shall know perfectly that we are heretickes , yet sainct Paul Titus . 3. ca. 10. doth not commaund vs to reiect an heretick at the first dash , but after once or twice admonition , when he sheweth himselfe incorrigible . And as yet you haue not admonished nor corrected vs , wherfore you cannot lawfully accuse vs , neither of obstination , nor yet of heresie . And to the ende that wée should giue the lesse occasion , I am content to heare patiently all that which you will say , and beléeue that I shall receyue reason for paiment , vpon this condition also that you wyll heare mée , & talke with me quietly , as though you did count me for your Christian brother , vntill such time as you haue vanquished me by your reasons , & that you did fully know my obstination .

Thomas .

I would gladly sée Eusebius skirmish with you : But in the meane time I would also as gladly heare that some would speake of dinner , and to let that skirmish alone till afterward . For I do sée the the sunne is already very hye , and thincke that we haue forgotten to dine : For I haue a stomacke that barketh as the hungry hound , which kéepeth me the I cannot forget it .

Hillarius .

Thervnto I am thy compalgnion . Therfore I finde thy counsaile good . I know not how it is with you , but with me I haue a good appetite to drinck .

Eusebius .

God knoweth that you are yet fasting at this masse . For you haue accustomed to fast .

Hillarius .

Although I haue broken my fast twice , yet you ought not to be abashed although that I am much altered . For we haue bene all the day about that fire of Purgatory , which hath so altered me that I thincke that all the holy water of the Priestes cannot quench the fire and the thirst which is in my throate .

Eusebius .

I dooe beléeue verye well that you loue the wine better then he water , & that the same is the holy water that you require .

Hillarius ,

I do also beléeue that you are not much contrary from mine opinion , and I do not thinck , how good a catholike soeuer you be , that you would chaunge with a priest a pinte or quarte of wine , for a quarte of his holy water . At the leastwise I would not : for I doe finde the one better and more profitable then the other . I know not how the soules of Purgatory do like of the water , but I do like better of the wine : And if I must néedes drincke water , I had rather to mingle it with a little wine , then with salt , as the Priests do in their holy water .

Eusebius .

They do it not for to drincke .

Hillarius .

I beléeue it well : for they are not so deintie : & they loue the wine as well as I. But wherefore doe they it ?

Thomas .

For to deface & purge the sinnes by the sprinckling thereoff .

Hillarius .

I am ashamed of their folly . One may Apothegma of Diogenes for the holy water Ouid , Fast . 1. Ah nimium saciles , qui tristia crimina cadii . Exigua tolli posio putalls aqua . very well say vnto them as Diogenes said vnto a certeyne Panim , who sprinckled himselfe with water for to purge his sinnes , after their auncient manner . O miserable man ( saith he ) if thou hast s●●led in thy Grammer and committed a fault and incongruite , thou canst not be absolued with sprinckling of the water : how dost thou then thinck with the sprinckling of the water to be absolued and washed from thy sinnes ?

Thomas .

It séemeth vnto me that if you haue such great thirst as you say , you wil not begin to enter into a new matter , for to make vs fast any longer .

Theophilus .

Admit it were so that we had a day of fasting . For it is now Lent , & although it were not yet I do beléeue that Eusebius would haue fasted & peraduenture Thomas also . And when we shal be all vnder the Popes religion , we must then fast the Lent al out , or els at the leastwise a great part thereoff .

Hillarius .

It is true , and it is better for vs to fast at libertie , then through compulsion . But sith that ye be all of that minde , let vs goe then to dinner .

¶ Finis primi Dialog.

THE SVMME OF THE seconde booke .

SIth that we haue already declared in the first Dialogue the agreeing of the Platonicall , Poeticall , and Papisticall Purgatory , and the diuers manners of purgations , that haue bene , aswell among the Panims as the Christian Idolaters , and howe all those things were inuented by the Priestes for to serue their auarice , and rapacitie , the which was more greater in them , then it was euer in others : Now we wil bring in , declare and sette foorth perticulerly their other practises , & the office which thei do for the dead , & how at the funeralls , burialls & mortuaries they follow more the errours and abuses of the Panims , then the examples of the true seruaunts of God aswell in their singings and lamentacions that they make for the deade , as in torches , lyghtes , belles , ryngings , and sepultures . Therefore I haue intituled this Dialogue : The office of the deade : In which also we will declare , what is the honour that is due vnto the deade : what ought to be the burialls , funeralls , and the sorrowing of the Christians : what hath bene the beginning , in making , commemoration & prayers for the dead . Also we will declare the principall poynts of the Masse of Requiem , that they doe sing for the dead , and wee will proue by their owne words , that they doe pray rather for the Saints and Saintes , and for those that are in Paradise in ioye and celestiall rest , then for those which are in paynes , be it in Purgatorie , or in any other place , according to their owne doctrine : and how by their owne praiers they sufficiently testifie and witnesse that in their doctrine there is nothing that is certeine , and that they holde not those whome they doe iudge to be in Purgatory , as assured of their saluation .

It shal be also declared what is the true Purgatory of Iesus Christ , and the true satisfaction of the Christians towards God , for their sinnes : and how the Papisticall Purgatory and satisfactions doe disagree altogether from the promises of god , & the remission of sinnes by Iesus Christ , It shal be declared in lyke maner for what cause God doth chastise and punish the faythfull in this world , and not in the other : what are the good workes , and wherefore God will iudge men by them : and how we must watch and do penaunce , and trauayle whilst we are in this lyfe , without trusting vppon the good deedes that other will doe for vs after our death . Item , what are the good deeds that we ought to doe for the dead , and wherein we may succour & helpe them , and the great iniury & wrong that the Popes and the Priestes doe vnto Iesus Christ , and to all the Christian people , holding them in the sincke and dungeon of their peruerse doctrine and traditions : What fishermen they are , and what their flouds and ryuers are wherein they fish and catch the golde and siluer and not the men : what are their relicks and holy bodyes : and how they do abuse the dead bodyes to the great dishonour of God and of his Saints as the Coniurers and Sorcerers doe . And wherto serueth all that which is done at the burialls , and chiefely to those which are buried in the habite or coole of Saint Fraunces . And in the ende we declare how Iesus Christ contayneth in himselfe all that which is needefull for vs , both in lyfe and death .

For to enter then into the matter , Theophilus bringeth the other in order .

THE SECOND DIALOGVE which is called the office of the dead .

THeophilus . You did erewhile complayne bicause that in speaking of Purgatory wée were so affectioned after it , that it hav almost made vs to forgette our dinner : But now I doe feare very much the contrary , that the dinner doth make vs forget purgatory , and the residue which yet remained to be thought on .

Hillarius .

You know very well that the Priestes haue accustomed to breake their fast , and to eate the soppe in the wyne in the middest of their Masse . Wherefore it were good reason that we did pause a lyttle in the middes of our Masse , for to breathe our selues . For we haue sayd and sunge inough for the dead for to drinke once : And yet wée are more beneficiall vnto them then the Priestes . For wée haue not dronken vppon their costes and expences .

Thomas .

Therefore you are so much the soberer . For me thinkes that you haue not druncke very much according to that that you say you were a thirst .

Hillarius .

I toke that which sufficed me and no more , and was content . For it doth to me more good , then all that which the Priestes and Moonkes haue eaten and dronken in the name of the dead ; doth profite the dead . It is already longe since that I would haue brought in for you that , but I doe alwayes wayte when that Eusebius would beginne . But I know very well that the dinner hath a lyttle abated his choler , and that the aduice and counsayle of Seneca is good , who Seneca . counsayleth those that are subiecte to ire & choler not to fast nor to take in hande any wayghty matter , if they do finde fasting hurtfull to those which are subiect to wrath . themselues by experience to be more enclyned to wrath before they haue eaten then after , bicause that hunger increaseth it the more .

Eusebius .

Therefore doe you breake your fast so willyngly in the morning , and are so much afraide to fast . You must not impute my choller vnto fasting , but to your importunate and wicked tongue : For he must haue great patience which would not be moued to wrathe through your words .

Theophilus .

I would gladly know thy reasons wherfore . Admitte that all that which this holy father hath preached this day be true , and all that which he at other times hath made vs to beléeue of Purgatory : First I demaund of thée , whether the Priests & Moonkes can delyuer the soules which are kept in that fire , through their Prayers , Suffrages , good déedes , Uigiles , Masses and Pardons ?

Eusebius .

Who will say the contrary but the Hereticks ?

Theophilus .

If it be so , wherefore are they so cruell that they doe not delyuer them incontinent from the fire , sith that they haue the power to doe it ? Doe they delyte to see them frye , roste , and burne with a lyttle fire , as they doo The crueltye of the prestes towards the soules . those whome they condempne for Heretickes , for to make them suffer more greater torment ? If you sée an house on fire , and that ther were a lyttle childe , or a poore man with in the house , crying for helpe and succour , would you not runne by and by and fetch them out , if you might possible ?

Thomas .

Although it were but a Deg , yet one should haue pyttie to heare him cry and howle .

Theophilus .

That same is most true . Wherefore you Miseremini mei , miseremini mei , saltem vos amici mei , quia manus Domini tetigit me . Lugentibus in purgatorio . Qui torrentur ardore nimio , Et torquentur sine remedie , Subuentat tua compassio , O Maria. may iudge Eusebius , what people those are , whome you haue in such estimacion , & accomptest for the holy Church . They doe sing in their Uigills , in the name of the soules : Haue mercy vppon mee , haue mercy vppon mée , you at the least that are my friends . And in their Masse and in theire Lugentibus in Purgatorio : They doe cry vnto the Uirgin Mary that she haue pittie & compassion of these poore soules which doe lament themselues in Purgatorye , and which are rosted with a very great fire and tormentes without remedy . Wherefore doe not they themselues haue compassion on them and giue them helpe .

Eusebius .

What doe they then ? Doe you not sée how by those very words , they doe pray vnto the Uirgin Mary for them , and howe they shew that they are their aduocaters and intercessors towards hir .

Theophilus .

But doe they that for the compassion that they haue of them ?

Hillarius .

They declare it sufficiently inough . For if one giue them no money , they will lette them rost and burne perpetually , although they haue power to delyuer them , as they brag and boast themselues they can .

Theophilus .

Thereoff I am much abashed , The rule of the diuine seruice for the dead . Durant . Ratio diui. off . li. 7. Rub. de off . mort . and yet more , bicause it is written and ordayned in theire rules of their diuine office , that if it chaunce that the yeres minde of those that be dead fall vppon a Sunday , or vpon any solempne feast , it ought not to be delayed nor put off vntill the next day , as it is vsed in the office and feasts of Saints , if they fall vppon such dayes : But must rather aduaunce the office and prayers for the dead in the dayes before , for to comfort them the better , and to preuent and mittigate the paynes that they to suffer in Purgatory . Of which they do giue such reasons , saying : that the dead & the Vnde versus Non peccat cantans , qui iustam praeuenit horam : Sed peccat cantans qui iustam prae terit horam . lo. Maio. 4. sent dist. 45. q. 1. Long & short Masses . soules of the dead haue neede of our ayde , but not the Saints . Wherefore the Saints which be in Paradise haue more greater leasure to tarry , then the poore soules that are holden in the fire of Purgatory . Whervnto agréeth very well the question which Maioris made : To witte , what Masse is most profitable for the dead , eyther that which is sayde quickely and hastely , as the custome is in Fraunce to singe them : or els that which is sayd leasurely , and in which they bestowe a greate time , as they doe in Scotlande and in Spayne .

Hillarius .

What is the solution of the question ?

Theophilus .

That the same that is soonest dispatched is the best : For the soules doe not feele the comfort that they oughte to receiue of the Masses which are sunge in theire name , vntill such time as the Masse is done .

Hillarius .

And therefore they say as I thinke . Ite Missa est . Go your way the Masse is done , and doe beléeue that then the soules haue leaue for to depart out of purgatory . But by that accompt the Masses of Hunters should be the The hunters Masse . The requiems of the poores and of the rich . best . And the poore should haue more greater aduauntage then the rich . For they doe dispatch their Masses quickely with a lyttle Requiem , yet the Priestes doe eate the one halfe for the great hast that they haue . It séemeth playnelye To go into Paradise in post , & vpon a ●●rslytter or wagon . that they woulde sende them into Paradise in poste . But the riche they doe carrye vppen Horselytters or Wagons with great Requiems , which continueth euerye one of them more then tenne myles , and are more then tenne ells long . But I thinck that they haue regarde vnto that , that the most part of those arrant théeues were goutie , and they are yet afraide to doe them hurte and to trouble their goutes .

Thomas .

I had rather to haue the goute and to be carryed into Paradise vppon the most trotting horse that can be founde , then to burne in that so terrible a fire . But I maruayle , if it be so , wherefore it is forbidden that the Priestes shall say but one Masse in a day , sith that they are One Masse in a daye . so profitable for the dead . Me thinketh that the Priestes should neuer cease singing of Masses at all times and that they ought to forsake their meate and foode to doe that . For if they were in a fire , they woulde gladly that one should leaue all things for to helpe them out . Furthermore , howe much the more a thinge is the betre● , so much the more the frequentacion of the same ought to be the better .

Hillarius .

I am also estonyed that the Papists doe not all the good déedes that they determine to doe for the deade all in one day without tarying for the yeremindes , and causing the poore soules to languish so long in that fire , & to suffer them so long time to roste : and that those that ordayne Masses in their Testaments , doe not cause them to bée dispatched in an houre , without lymiting so long time .

Theophilus .

Also Maioris did very well say , that the same 4. Cent dist. 45. 41. should be the better , although that afterwards , he added that a Masse which is said more treatably , doth recompence through the deuosion of him which sayeth it , the quickenesse and breuitie of that which is sayde in hast .

Hillarius .

I beléeue very well that they had rather haue all their money together that they looke for , then to cause them to languish in tarying for it , as the poore soules , fearing least any thing should escape them . Therefore they say , that the candle that goeth before , is better then that The candle that goeth before . which commeth after .

Thomas .

I assure thée that I had an Aunt , whom they had put that into hir heade that the To bury one before he is dead . An history . must be buryed before she be deade .

Hillarius .

How could she doe that ?

Thomas .

Shée hath done during hir lyfe all hir good déedes , as she would haue that one should doe for hir after hir death , carryinge candells , and sprinklyng holy water vppon the graue in which she would be buryed , and causinge the Priestes to sing , as they should haue done if she had bene dead . But the same happened well for them . For afterwards shee was conuerted to your law , and the most part of all hir parents and kinsfolke . Wherefore the Priestes should haue lost all that .

Hillarius .

And therefore it is not without cause that they make such hast of offerings , but without the same they make no hast .

Theophilus .

It should séeme to those that heare them read vpon their bookes , the they haue great pittie & compassion of those captiue soules , sith that they had rather delay the honor that they would do vnto the saints , & their office , then the same of the dead , & the solace & comforte that they would giue vnto them . But the practise of their doctrine and experience declareth vnto vs the contrary . For hée that will not giue them readye money in theire handes without all question , those poore soules should neuer haue any helpe of them , or at the least it shal be but lyttle , and they shall tarry their leasure . And so by that meanes the poore shal be alwayes miserable , and cannot enter into Paradise for want of money , if there be such auarice in Paradise as is among them .

Hillarius .

Some men saye they haue hearde their lamentations , and that you doe wronge vnto them , and that The lamentations of the prests for the dead . they are not so pittilesse as you make them . For in singing for the dead , they lament so piteously , that men would say that they did wéepe and mourne , as if they had buryed their father and mother . But it is easie to bée séene , that they are not so sorrowfull as they séeme they are : But that those are the teares of the Crocodile , who Crocodili la. chrymae . The weping of the Crocodil weepeth when he would eate and deuoure men . Wherefore the more I beholde them , so much the truer do I finde the aunswere of him , of whome one asked what kinde of people doe lyue now a dayes most ioyfully and fréely vppon What men are most free and priuiledged . the earth ? and who haue the greatest franchises and priuiledges ?

Thomas .

What aunswered he ?

Hillarius .

That they were the Priests and the Phistcians . For the Priestes are alwayes ioyfull and merry as you heare them sing at the burialls , when all the other do wéepe and lament . The Phisicians also haue great lyberties The priuiledge of the wicked Phisicions and hangmen . Plin. li. 29. c. 1. Medico tatum hommem occidisse impunitas summa est . and franchises . For it is lawfull for them to kill men , not onely without receiuing punishment for it , but which is more , they haue and receiue money for their labour ?

Thomas .

The hangmen are asmuch priuiledged .

Hillarius .

You say true , I am abashed that Plinie hath not ioyned them together , when he did speake of the priuiledge of the Phisicians . But it seemeth vnto me , that they ought yet to haue wages of the Priests . For they doe not neglect and fore slow their businesse , but doe bring goodly hydes into The tanne fatte of the prestes . their tanne fatte .

Theophilus .

Yea the barbarous and ignorant Emperiques and Arabians , which ought to agrée with them , and the Theologians Sophistes . But they cannot gette much with the cunning Phisicians and which are of a good conscience .

Hillarias .

And therefore me thinkes that those cannot well agrée with the Priestes , For the Priestes desire none other thing but death : And the good Phisicians The good Phisicians . doe not trauayle but to driue death away , & to giue health , and to kéepe and mayntayne the lyfe of men .

Thomas .

There is nothing truer then that thou sayst . For I my selfe haue hearde them how they doe reioyce of their poore parishieners , and say the one to the other , in goyng to the tauerne : Let vs go drincke vpon the first skinne that will come .

Theophilus .

What meane they by that ? A new prouerbe of the priestes . To drincke vpon the skinne to come .

Hillarius .

I do vnderstand their prouerbe . But I am not much abashed , although you do not vnderstand it , for it is not in the Chiliades of Erasmus . They compare the poore people to the beastes , of whom they are the boutchers and flears , as they themselues confesse by their prouerbe . And neuerthelesse The butchery of the priestes . Eusebius is angry when we do name them by the names that they themselues haue giuen them .

For what other thing doth their prouerbe signifie , but as the boutchers and flears haue the profite and gaine of the skinne and hyde of the beastes whom they flea : Euen so also haue they the profite of the dead bodyes of which they flea . I haue heard them my selfe , howe they reioyce , when they heare that there is any rich man sicke and in daunger of death , and howe they saye let vs make good chéere : For we shall haue by and by héere a good skinne for shoes and for the tanne fatte . There is neither Tanner nor Cordwaytter Hydes for shoes Tanners and Shomakers of mens skinnes . so wealthy as those are . For all the other knowe not to make their profit but of the skinnes & hides of beasts : But these héere do occupy the skinnes of men . And although that they be vnprofitable for any woorke , neuerthelesse they doe make of them more gaine , then of any other , insomuche that al the gaine that : the Tanners do with their marroquino and vntanned hides , and the Cordwamers with their shoes , is nothing in comparison of that whiche these doe get with their trade . The reproch of the cuntry man against the priests

Thomas .

I assure thée that I doe know a man at Couppet which is besides Geneun , who hath made this reproche vnto the Priests of the same place , and said vnto them . Ye haue dronken vpon my skin , but you shal pay the shot if ye wil for mo : For I will not disburse any penny or farthing .

Hillarius .

Wherfore said he that ?

Thomas .

Bicause that The dead doth mocke the priests . he was sicke of long time , & during his sicknesse the Priests hoping that he would haue dyed in short time , went to the Tauerne to drinck vpon his skinne : But he deceiued them , & did not to them the pleasure they looked for : For he died not , but is yet aliue to this day .

Hillarius .

The dead hath then deceiued & mocked them as wel as the olde men who do spend all their goods vnder hope that they shall dye in short time , & afterwards , as men say , were constrained to go beg at the gates & doores , desiring to giue some almose vnto those poore people whom death hath begiled . These Priests haue as The complaynt of the Curate . great occasion to complaine of him , as the Curate had , who ( as men saye ) complained of his Parishoners , sayinge : what would you haue me do my Parishioners ? you will neither offer nor yet dye . Whereof do ye thincke that I can lyue ? haue you determined the I should dye with hunger ? doe you not thincke Eusebius , the one may say the same of them that Seneca hath written of Aruncius and Aterius , and of other Seneca si. 6. de benef. Auruncius Aterius . Captatores testamentorum . Hunters & watchers after heritages and testaments . Libitina Libitinarij . Vespillones . Marrons are those vhich doe bury in the time of the plague . like , who do make it an occupacion & science to purchase after heritages & to watch after testaments , saying that they haue the same desire which the Marrons had , & those who make it an occupacion to bury the dead bodies , & to furnish & prepare that which is necessary for the burials & funerals . For the greater that the number of the dead bodies are , so much is the game the greater both of the one and the other . And therefore saith he : Those the do make it an occupation to bury the dead know not of whom they ought to desire death : But these hunters & watchers after testaments & heritages , doe desire that their friends & kinsmen should die . If the Priests of the Panims had bene like vnto our Priests , I doubt not but that they would haue ioyned vnto those héere . For they desire as much the death of men , and more then those , sith that they make & do the occupation both of the one & the other . Wherfore when I heare them sing their songs so pitiously and lamentable , about the dead , & their graues , me thincks that I Prouerbe . Flere adnouercae tumulum . The meanes to comforte the I Priestes . Minius . Haredis status sub persona lisus est . sée children cry , as the prouerbe saith , at the burying of their stepmother . And that they are like vnto the little children , who do wéepe & laugh all with one winde , & by and by are appeased , so the when one gyueth them a péece of bread , or an apple , and that which they aske for : Euen so we must appease those & giue them money to comfort them . Afterwards as soone as they haue receiued it , behold them mapings & lamentations are ended , their sorrow is tourned into ioy , & Requiem into Gaudeanius .

Theophilus ,

This that you speake séemeth to be sowre & sharp vnto Eusebius : But I am certeine that if he did read a little the which S. Cyprian hath written against Cyprian . tract. 1. cont. Demet. Nec infirmes exhibetur misericordia & defunctis auaritia inhiat acrapina , & appetuntur spolia mortuorum . The minstrells at the burialls Siticines , Tibicines . the auarice & gréedinesse of the Priests & Prelates , & of their rapine & theft towards the dead , in his booke against Demetrian , he shal finde the thing a little more swéeter and pleasant .

Hillarius .

I do thincke the they determine none other thing but to abolish all the institution of the true Church of Iesus Christ , for to reduce & bring it to Iewishnesse and Panimry . The auncient Panims haue accustomed to hire for ready money some minstrel or many minstrels after the estate of him that dyeth , who shall singe with their instruments many lamentable and pitifull songs , of the calamities & miseries of the olde time , for to comfort the parents & friends of the dead , hearing of other mens misfortunes , and letting them to vnderstand thereby that they were not alone . For as men do commonly say : The consolation & comfort Alexadr . Appro in proble . of the miserable is to haue compaignions . They do it also , to the end that thorow the harmony of the instruments they should be drawen away & féele lesse dolour and griefe . The minstrels then do accompany the pompe and funerall procession , and play their notes before the dead body , sounding their Trumpets , Flutes & Drumme for to moue the hearers Plato de leg . li. 12. to sorrowe and lamentation . Sometime they do sing of the praise of the dead , & according to the note that the minstrel doth sound , & the affections that he giueth to his songs & instruments , the parents & friends of the dead do strike their breasts and begin to wéepe & lament , and not content with Lamenters that , but do hire some to lament & wéepe , for to helpe them to sorrowe and wéepe and to singe the complaintes , and Threnodes . Tremnistriae . Praesicae . Biernoys Naeuius Alexandrians . chieflye women , bycause that they are by nature more pitifull and myleh harted to wéepe , as the Biernoys besides Gascoyne and in Alexandria doe yet vse vnto this daye , and doe so their office , that one woulde saye that the matter toucheth them . They haue also accustomed in many places to shaue their beard in token of sorrow and mourning .

Thomas .

Whereto serueth all that for the dead ? Haec quidem me hercle praefica si mortuum laudat . Coel. Rho. lec anti. 17. c. 22. Herod . Tranq . The honour dewe vnto the dead . Gene. 3. d. 19. Vir. Aene. 11 Interea socios , in humalaque corpora terra . Mandamus qui solus honos . Acheronte sub imo est . 1. Thessa . 4. c. 13 The buriall of the Barbarians Herod . Ierom. in loui . lib. 2. Tertul. in Marcio . Fryer Genure . Lib. consor . fol. 63.

Hillarius .

Whereto serueth for them now all the that the Priests doe ? What greater honour can we doe vnto them , then to bury them honestly in the earth , followinge the sentence of God , which hath sayd : Earth thou art and into earth thou shalt retourne againe .

Theophilus .

The true seruaunts of God , Patriarkes , Prophets , and Apostles , haue not much vsed any other Ceremonies , and we know not to followe a better rule and example then theirs , and the admonition which the Apostle doth giue vnto vs . He forbiddeth vs expresly the we should not sorrow for those the are fallen a sléepe , as the Panims and Gentiles doe who haue no hope . The holy Apostle would not bringe vs to such barberousnesse as hath bene sometime vsed among the Panims , who did eate the dead bodies , or els did giue them to be deuoured & torne in péeces with dogs , birdes & fishes , without burying them : As many authours as well Panims as Christians do witnesse it of the Scithians , Indians , Bactrianians , Hircanians , Pontickes , & other such like barberous people .

Hillarius .

I thincke the Fryer Geneure who is so much praised in the booke of the conformities of saint Fraunces , came from some of those Nations . For among all the other meruailous vertues which are reported of him , this is one , that he caused the Diuels to flée away seuen miles without euer retourning againe . It is written in the same booke , that he sayd : I would to God that when I shall dye ther do procéed and come out from my body such a stincke , the none dare to come néere it , & finally that men would cast me out without burying of me , & that I might dye all alone , abhominably & that they would suffer mée to be deuoured of the dogs .

Theophilus .

Some haue accused the Lutherians for that they make none accompt of the dead bodies , bicause they condemne the superstitions of the Papistes : But I doe not thincke that euer any of them woulde speake so vnhonestly , neither of his owne body , nor yet of any others . Yet Diogenes . Cic. Tus q. 1. Diogenes had more honesty , how dogish soeuer the hée was . For although the he did not much take care for hys burying , yet he commaunded not that one should giue his body to the dogs . It is true the he did say , that hée had no great care how he should be buried : For those that shall haue the house will not suffer him to rot within it . And if they do cast it out , at the least let them cast a staffe after it for to defende and kéepe it from the dogges . I knowe not in what Theology this Fryer Geneure hath learned that honestie . For the Apostle speaketh not after that sort . Also I would not that we should bée so superstitious in the burying as were the Grecians , Romaines , and other like people , who estéemed Grecians and Latynes . themselues more humaine and honest , and that wée shoulde so lament and sorrowe for the death of our parentes and friendes ; as they dyd : as though we had no more hope and trust of the resurrection then they , and as though wée dyd thincke them altogether dead and lost . And although that there was more greater moderation in this among the Iewish people , then among all the other , and that they dyd kéepe an ●●der more agréeing to nature , yet neuerthelesse the Apostle would that we should be bolde and constaunt , forasmuch as wée haue more certeine and sure witnesse of the resurrection of the dead , and more greater and excellenter reuelation of the Gospell , then this auncient people had : at the leastwise that we doe not worse then they , but that we may witnesse through our constancie and countenaunce the The sorrowing for the dead faith that wée haue in Iesus Christe , and our hope in hys resurrection . The Apostle saith not simply : Sorrowe not for those that are fallen a sléepe , and bée not sadde . For that should be Stoique like , and of men he woulde make stones and blockes of woode , without any affection : But the doctrine of the Gospell importeth not the same . For although What affections the Gospel doth permit . that the Gospell of Iesus Christ doth correct and mortefie the wicked affections of the flesh , yet neuerthelesse it depriueth nor spoileth man from all humaine affection , but amendeth onely that which is vicious , thorow the naturall corruption , procéeding from the sinne of man . It is impossible that we can be wout dolour & sorrow , although wée would , when we do sée the afflictions and miseries of our brethren , béeing of our flesh and bloud , The holy Scripture hath not condemned the sorrow and heauinesse that Abraham conceiued Genes. 23. c. and Genes. 50. a. 1 Mat. 14. b. 11 Act. 8. 2. 21 Act , 11. 2. ● for the death of Sara his wife , & Isaac of his mother , Ioseph of his father Iacob : The Disciples of S. Iohn , & of Iesus Christ , & of s . Steuen , & of s . Iames , of the teares the they haue shed & of the sorrow that they made : For man cannot be man , without béeing moued to pittie and compassion , séeinge the calamities of others , & féeling the damage that he himselfe receiueth . Therefore S. Paul speaketh very sharply , when 1. Thess. 4. c. 13 he sayd , that the faithfull shoulde not bée sorrowfull as the Panims and Infidels , who haue no hope of the resurrection . Sith then that he condemneth the dooinges of the Panims , we ought not to kepe them , except we would be rather counted Panims then Christians . It ought then to suffice vs to bury honestly the bodies of the dead , and to put them in the earth as in their bed , tarrying and lookinge for the comming of Iesus Christ , and the generall resurrection of all fleshe . Therefore the Christians doe call the place that is appointed for their buriall Cimiterium , bycause that it is as the bed , couch and dortoire of the faythfull that be The Church-yard & dortoyr dead . And therefore it is good to haue some certeine honest and comely place , as a common repository of the Christians , Those do dishonour god which do not bury honestly the dead . 1. Cor. 6. 1. 10 and publike witnesse of the resurrection of the flesh . For we should doe great wronge vnto our bodyes which are the temple of God , in whom God dwelleth , and which haue bene consecrated and made holy through the bloude of Iesus Christ vnto his honour and glory , and dedicated vnto the immortall inheritage of his kingdome , if wée doe cast them to dogges , fowles and wilde beastes , as she carryon of wilde and brute beastes , as though they should liue no more after they were dead , and bée no pertaker of the immortalitie , no more then beastes . Their bodies ought to be more déere vnto vs , and more ioyned and knit vnto vs then their apparell , as Basile witnesseth . For that cause the Patriarches and true seruauntes of God Bas . serui . 2. Mana. ca. 13 Genes. 23. d. 19 Genes. 25. 2. 7 Genes. 17. g. 19 Tho. 1. 2. 3 were praised , and namely Thoby , not for that they caused singing , praiers , & offering for the dead , and in spending their substaunce without necessitie vpon the dead : But bicause they haue deliuered them againe to the earth their mother Iob. 1. d. 22 from whom they came out : and that they haue so honoured them by their burying , without sparing that which was necessary for the bodyes of the seruaunts of God , for whom he was glorified . And the Panims themselues were greatly afraide to suffer those to lye vnburied who haue liued Those that doe kill themselues are depriued of their buriall . Sopho. in Aiace fla . 24. d. 5. Si non lice . &c. Cum homo . & de poe. dist. 3. c Iudas . honestly , and did not depriue but those who thorow dispaire did kill themselues , as yet vnto this day it is ordained by the Canons . But the Panims oftentimes , doe but cut off the hand that committed the fact , iudgeing it vnworthy to be buried with the body , to whom it hath done violence . Also in some places they do punish with such insamy those that commit sacriledge , and that kill their fathers and mothers , and others that haue committed such execrable crimes : notwithstanding that the Hebrewes after that they had satisfied to Iustice , buryed them , and would not suffer that the Iosep . aut . li. 4. ca. 6. Esa. 14. c. 19 Iere. 22. c. 19 The buryall of an Asse . buriall should be denied not to the enimies , as Iosephus witnesseth : And the Lord by his Prophet declareth vnto the tyrant of Babilon , that he shall haue no place to be buryed in : And threateneth Ioachim that he shall be buried among the Asses , bicause of his infidelitie and tyranny .

Hillarius .

The Panims had some appearaunce to doe that , & vsed not such crueltie as our Priests , who for default of money do refuse the buriall , not onely vnto the olde folke , but also to the little Infants . And how many times doth it happen , that they haue excommunicated some poore labourer or busbādmā , Excommunication for money . for twentie or thirtie soubs , yea , for thrée , & if he do die being so excommunicated by them , hauing not wherwith to pay , they haue denied him the place to be buried with the other christians : In c. ex parte de sepult . Extra . de torne . ca. De peni dist. 6. c. 1. 1. Thess. 4. a. 5 or els he must buy it déerly ? And yet neuerthelesse there Canons deny not that Churchyard , but to those who are no Christians , or who do kill themselues : or to those the haue ben killed in doing some wicked acte , as adultry , larceny , murder , & Iewish playes . I am greatly abashed where they & we haue had the understanding . S. Paul & Moses do forbid vs expresly , to be confirmable to the imitations of the Panims & Idolatrers , it that in dispite of them wée haue not taken any other myrrour , nor haue studied in any other thing . For what difference is there betwéene our funerals and buryals & theirs ? The ringing of Belles . Haue not we the Bels in stéede of the Minstrels that the Panims had ? And euen as they had the Minstrelles that were best allowed , according to the estate and condition of the persons , so haue we the Bels , Priests & Monks . When The burying of the rich . there dyeth any Prince or noble man or rich man , that hath well wherewith to pay , they will bury him with the trumpet , with many torches , with great pomp & procession , & with a great company of Minstrels , and of men and women , for to singe , wéepe and lament about him , as it doth wel appeare by the discription that Virgile made of the burying and funerals of Pallas the sonne of king Euander , sayinge , that after that hée was knowen to be dead in the Citie , and that the Citizens dyd vnderstand that men dyd bringe the body , and that it was already at hand , did as followeth .

Th' archadians most sodeinly , vnto the gates then came , The buriall of Pallas . Vir. Aene. 11 Holding the torches funerals , already for the same . According to their olde fashion , their guise and eke custome , And euery one his torch did light , that serued in that rome . Marching so well before the herse , by order on a row , That there was none among them all , out of order did show . Giuing such great a shining light , the way the which they went , With the dead corps & pomp so great , which to his graue him sent . That all a farre and round about , the fieldes that are full faire , Did giue such light and seruent heat , which flamed in the aire .

And in an other place speaking of the wéepings & lamentations done ouer the dead , saith :

Euen to the heauens assended is , of men the dolefull cry , Vir. Aene. 11 And eke the sound of the trumpets , lamenting pitiously :

And hesids all these things , the rich men were carried to the earth vpon a goodly Béere , with great magnificence and pomp , the which the Satyrical Poet hath comprised in a few verses , speaking of those which through their excesse , and for that they follow not the counsayle of the Phisitian , and kéepe not good dyet doe kill themselues saying .

With such like train they march before , with trompe & torches bright Persius . Sa. 3. To guyde the rich man to his graue , a goodly gorgeous sight . Who on a curious coffin lyes , & mourners beare his beere , And all his friends bewayle his death , with sad & mourning cheere .

On the contrary parte , if there doe dye any poore man , The burial of the poore . or anye younge childe , or man of small callynge , they doe bring him simply with a lyttle procession , and a small company , and the most times in the night , for the causes which already before haue bene touched , and they hadde but one lyttle Flute . Of which among others the Poet Statius doth witnesse it wryting of Archanorus , after this manner .

But when poore men or children dye , their buriall is not braue . A lyttle Flute doth serue their tourne , to bring them to their graue . Statius .

Sith that we are fallen into the talke of the Flute , I Pli. si. 19. c. 43 The burial of a Rauen. doe remember an history that Plinie maketh mencion off , of a Rauen that was at Rome , who had learned to speake , insomuch that euery morning he went into the open stréets and saluted the Caesars , to wytte Tiberius , Germanicus , & Drusius , by their proper names , and also the people of Rome : For which cause he was so wel beloued , that when he was dead , the people of Rome put him to deathe that had killed him , and made such great sorrow and lamentations , that they celebrated funeralls and pompes for him , so that he was carryed to the graue vppon a goodly beere , very trimly decked & adorned , the which two Aethiopians or black Moores did beare vpon their shoulders , with a great number of garlands & crowns of flowers , & a Fluter which played vpon the Flute before vntil they came to his graue .

Thomas .

Is it possible that the Romaynes , who haue ben so greatly estéemed thorow out the whole worlde , to haue bene so foolish ?

Hillarius .

They witnesse it themselues by their owne historyes : and you must vnderstand , bicause that the deade body was blacke , it was carryed by two Aethiopians or blacke Moores , as he was . But if they Blacke monkes . had had of lacopins , Augustines , or Moonkes of the order of Saint Bennet they had bene a great deale fitter for that office : and so the Rauens should haue carryed the Rauen to the graue , and should haue put him in the Paradise of the Rauens . And doubte not , that if the Rauens , Dogs , and Asses had wherewith to bury them , and that the Priestes might get so much money from them as they doe from the rich men , that they woulde spare them no more then they doe the rich , and would haue no more pittie and compassion of their soules , then of the soules of men . I doe meruayle of nothing but of this that the Romaynes vsed rather the Flute in those funeralls of the Rauen , then the Trompette The burial of the poore . Vnde versus . Dum moritur diues , concurrunt vndique ciuet . Dum pauper moritur , vix vnus adesse videtur . sith that in all the rest he was buryed as solemly as the rich men be . And what doe our Priestes ? If any great Usurer be dead , they runne by and by to the great bell . There is not a Church nor parishe but that all the belles are walking , insomuch that they make a greater noyse then the Cyclopes doe with their Hammers and Mallets . I would counsell them to doe as the women of the Lacedemonians did when their king was dead , who did runne about the country sounding and tinging of fire pannes , pots and basins ( as men doe after Bées when they swarme ) for to declare the death of their king . After that the belles are Herod . once set in order a ringing , behold from all quarters do come , Moonks , Priests , white , gray & blacke , smokid of al colours as Owles and Shrichowles , Rauens , Eagles , Wolues , and Dogges doe after carren , and they haue no néede to shaue themselues , as the Panims doe , for to lament and be sorrowfull . For they are already shauen of themselues as the Priestes of the Babilonians , Aegyptians , and the Priestes of Isis are : and are clothed wyth lynnen & white Barue . 6. d. 30. Ier. in Eze. 24 Herod . in Enterp . Plin. shirts as they are . They doe serue for all : In stéede of Minstrells , singers , wéepers and lamenters . And euen as those Panim Minstrells did sing pittifull and lamentable songs , and the euill fortunes of men , for to comfort the parents , euen so haue these our Priestes and Moonkes turned the booke of Iob into suche lamentacions and complaynts . The booke of Iob dedicated to the dead . Ex conc . Thol . 3. 23. q. 2. c Qui diuina .

Theophilus .

Neuerthelesse it is concluded in the counsell of Tholet , that those which are called of the Lorde from this worlde , ought to be carryed to their graue , onely with singing of Psalmes , the rather to witnesse and declare that they doe not so mourne and lament as the Panims doe , then for any other thing , and also to declare the hope of the resurrection .

Hillarius .

There was more appearaunce , in that which the Idolaters did , for they did sing in a language vnderstanded of all men , & if the songs did not serue any thinge to the dead , yet at the least they serued somewhat to those that were alyue : But the roaring and bellowing of our Priests and Moonkes doe serue neyther for the one nor the other , but onely to accroche and gette to them money , and to cause it to come as the Birdes to the call : except peraduenture they woulde alleadge the reason of Macrobius which sayth , the men do accompany the dead to the graue with Macrob. in som . Scipi . li. 2. ca. 3. singing , bicause the panims beléeue after the the soules are seperated from the bodies , they doe follow that swéet harmony , & wyth the same goe vp to Heauen . For monye were of the opinion of Herophilus , Dicearchus , and Aristoxenus , Herophilus , Dicoarchus . Aristoxenus . Cic. Tusc. li. 1. of whom Cicero maketh mention , who sayd that the soule was not altogether nothing , or onely a harmony , the which taketh pleasure with that pleasaunt singinge and melody : and goeth wyth it : And God graunt that these héere doe beléeue the soules to be immortall , and that they may haue a better opinion then those had . And also as touchinge the torches that the Panims carried , ther was some honest cause wherfore . For they carried them partly for to kindle Torches at the funeralls . The auncient custome . woode that was prepared for to burne the dead bodyes withall , bicause that when they were come to the place appointed & ordained for the same , the néerest of kin did take one of those torches , and kindeled the fire , as Virgile hath sufficiently declared it , speaking of the burying of Misenus , after this manner :

In mourning sort , some heaue on shoulders hye the mightie beere . Vir. Aene. 6. ( A dolefull seruice sad ) as children doe their fathers deere . Behinde them holding bronds , them flame vprising broad doth spred , And oyles and dayntyes cast , and Frankensens the fire doth seede ,

Also in some places they haue néede of them , bycause that they doe bury them in the night , after the law of Demetrius The lawe of of Demetrius Phalareus . Cael. Rho. le. an . li. 17. ca. 20. Phalereus , who hath so ordayned it for to correct the superstuous pompe and pride of those exequies and funeralls : which were too excessiue , insomuch that many did bestow great cost about them , and afterwardes they themselues wanted : as it happeneth dayly to many , who bestow great treasure vppon the dead , and do dye with hunger in their houses : nor leaue wherewith to pay their owne debtes , nor those of the deade , and doe keepe backe that which is due vnto the good people , for to giue it to the Priestes . Bicause of those torches the Latenists doe call at this day the burialls Funus , bicause that they were made Funus Funeralia . The burialls of the Turkes . with cordes , the which they cal Funes , as they do call them yet now . But the Turkes haue a better order and of more appearaunce in that , then we . It is very true that they haue some things lyke to our superstlcions . For in the burying of the rich men and men of honour , their Priestes whome they call in their language Thalassanians , doe follow them a great number , according to the richnesse and estate of the dead , singing often times this Song and Lctany : God is God , and the true God , & Magman the Bessenger of God . But they haue this goodnesse , that they do cause the Binges and Princes to buylde for some of them Iemples , Foundations for the poore . for others Bospitalls . for Sepulchers and graucs , the which they enrich with great reuenewes and rentes : not for to nurrish the idle priests , but for to sucecur the necessitie and no d● of the poore and needy .

Eusebius .

All your matters are nothing but : ful of mocking and slaunderinges . Doth not all payne and trauayle require a rewarde ? Is it not good reason that the parents and friends , which haue the goodes of the dead , and become their heires , should recompence the Pricstes somewhat : Hath not Iesus Christ sayd that the Laborer is worthy of Lue. 10 b. 7. his rewarde ? If the Priestes would doe that without taking any thing , the heires and friends should make greate chéere with the goodes of the dead , and in the meane while the poore Priestes , which doe trauayle for them should die of hunger : And so by that meanes one shoulde finde none that would doe . that office nor which woulde be a Priest .

Hillarius .

That should be a great incenuenience and very euil for the Christianitie , chiefely for the poore soules of Purgatory , who shoulde haue no more aduocates nor intercessors betwéene God and the Uirgin Mary , for to delyuer them from those paynes .

Theophilus .

I confesse that we must not moossell the Those that are the true Ministers are worthy of nurrishment . Deut. 25. a. 4. 1. Cor. 9. b 9. 1. Timoth. 5. c. 18 mouth , of the Oxe that treadeth out the corne , and it is also good reason that he that serueth the Gospell , shoulde lyue of the Gospell : But what trauayle doe those héere take : what seruices doe they , eyther to the quicke or to the dead ?

Hillarius .

To eate vp and deuoure their goodes and substaunce .

Theophilus .

That which you haue alleadged is against your selfe . For when Iesus Christ sayth that the workeman Mat. 10. b. 10. is worthy to haue his meate , he speaketh of the Ministers of the Gospell , and not of Minstrells . He hath not commaunded the Christians to féede and giue meate to Minstrells for to haue them sounde in their eares : but Ministers for to preach the gospel to them . He letteth vs to vnderstande that we must worke and trauayle in the Ministerie of the Gospell , by that that he sayth the workeman , not the idle and slougthfull . Afterwardes he declareth that he would not haue the Ministers of his Church couetous , 1. Timoth. 3. a. 3 l itus . l. b. 7. 1. Pet. 5. a. 2. nor giuen to filthy lucre nor insatiable , when he declareth that the meate is due to the Pastours of the Gospell , but ought to content them selues , as the holy Apostle to be cloto c● , nourished and kept according to their estate and condition : whithout super fluity , which may cause them to for get God , and without to great neede , which maye hinder them to exercise their office : But these here do neuer cease to a●●e and to catch , & yet they do no workes that serue for the health of men It wine a great deale better the they would The ligrification of heales Durant in Ra dui . off li 1. Rub. de camp . shew forth ineffect the which they saye their belles do signifie , then to haue beiles for to represent it . They do interpret that the sound of their belles doth signifie the sound of the word of God , the which they ought to preach vnto the people and that the belles do signifie the prophets and ministers of the gospell , who ought to sounde in the Church of God : But they do leaue all the charge vnto the belles , and will not uiedle with it . Haue they not well prouided for the christian people , good preachers ?

Hillarias ,

You do not vnderstand their practise . They are wyser then you thincke . Mee thinckes that men The bellsand Images the Priests Vicars cannot complaine of them , as touching the office of preaching ; for they haue so well prouided , that one cannot rebuke them . It is verie true , that they do not preache : But they haue so many the more vicars to supply their office . Haue : they not the Churches full of Images ? For you Grego . ad Sere . Epise. Massil . par. 10. Epist. 4. know that their Images are lay mens and sooles bookes , as they tell vs . But I know not what bookes they are , nor on which side they must take them to open and read in them , or whether we must begin at the beginning , as the Oreekes , Latined , Frenchmen , and others like : or at the end , and so go backward , & cleane contrary to others , as the Hebrewes and Caldes do . Wee haue assayed them , and haue taken very sharpe Batchettes and Ares , for to open the leaues , which are so saste stirched and glewed together , that it is impossible to open and separate them a sunder , except we do hew and cut them in peeces . Wee haue looked beefore and behinde : towardes the head and the feete , the belly and the backe , but we could neuer soe any letter , neither to knowe whether they were written in Greeke , Hebrew or Latine , nor yet in what language . To conclude , we find nothing there , but Mice , Pytch , Spiders , and such filthyuesse . But if they be the lay mennes books , whereto serueth then for them preachers , haue they not found them ready at hand and the most fytte as is possible to finde ? First of all they coulde not haue founde them more fitter for them . For they doe neyther eate nor drinck , nor their meate and fire costeth them any thing . But which is more , they nurrishe and keepe them aboute them , and do well declare , that they are not vicars without cause . For the offrings that they receiue , they make a good accompt , and do pay a great reuenewe to their Curate and Byshop . Du the other side , should not the people haue great wronge to complaine ? For they are gracyous preaches . They neuer rebuke any man , but let euery one doe as he lisse . If the prophets , Apostles and ministers of the Gospell were such pleasant preachers , they should not be so much hated , nor euill entreated of men , but men would offer vnto them candels , and hysse their f●●t , ●s they do those But thore is a great fault in them , for the which we must prouide . For not withstangding that they haue , goodly Os habent & non loguentur : oculoshabent et non videbūs : manut halent & non palpebunt , pedes habent & non ambulabunt , et non clamabunt in guttere suo . 1. Cor. 14. b. 9. Act. 2. b. 7 mouthes , yet neuerthelesse they speake not , because they haue no voyce . Wherfore they haue the belles for are compence , which haue the voyes for to speake in stende of them although that they haue lso mouthes : But the Images haue the countenaucos and do furnish the mouth & the belles the voyce , for to fulfill that which is written : except ye speake wordes that haue signification , howe shall it bee vnderstanded what is spoken ? For you shall but speake in the ayre , and as a tinckling simball , and there is yet another secret , whiche euery one vnderstandeth not . All those that did heare the Apostles in Hierusalem vpon the day of Pentecost , were cssonyed , bicause that not withstanding they were Galieans , yet neuerthelesse all of what language soeuer they were of , did vnderstand them speak as if it had ben their owne & natiue tongue & comon to al the he arers . Now ●●asmuch as ye●els are the Popes & ● Priests Apostls , all of them bicause that they haue not that gifte of God , would counterfayte that miracle by their belles . For they doe The belles doe speake all languages . speake all languages , and such as it pleaseth the hearers . And what sounde soeuer they haue , they speake that which the hearer hath in his fantasie , as euery one may knowe by experience , and I my selfe can witnesse the same . For when I was a young childe , and that I did heare the bells towle as I went to schoole , I did thincke that they sayde sometimes that which some had put in my heade : Lost labour , thou shalt be beate : and I was alwayes afrayd that they had sayd true . Euen so it happened vnto a widow who The widowe asked counsel of the belles . desired much to marry , but she was ashamed to tell it , therfore he sent hir to the belles whome she asked counsayle , knowing well hir affection , and that she would doe but that which was in hir fantasie , whatsoeuer counsayle one gaue vnto hir . When it was appoynted that she should heare the counsayle that the bells gaue vnto hir , she thought that they sayd vnto hir : Marry thée : afterwards when she was marryed , and that hir husbande which was verye iealous had well beaten hir for goyng or gaddinge abroade many times , and had well drused hir bones , séeing that that feast should alwayes last , she rebuked him that did giue hir that counsayle : and sayd vnto him : My friende you haue not well vnderstanded the bells : Goe presently and giue good eare ; and you shall sée if they saye not the contrary : the which so happened . For bicause that hir fantasie was past she did thincke that the belles sayd : Marry not . Wherefore I conclude that I haue sufficiently proued mine intention , and that the Priestes haue very well prouided for vs Preachers , and such as appertayne vnto vs : of whom we ought to content our selues . For fooles woulde alwayes that one should counsell them after their owne fantasie . And bicause that we are fooles , we desire such Preachers which speake after our owne fantasie . But we cannot better finde them but at the belles .

Theophilus .

It was commaunded in the lawe , that when the highe Bishop entred into the Sanctuary , that he was clothed with a gowne of Iacinte , which had Bels & Pomgranards hanging at the The Pomegranards and belles that did hang vpon the vestment of the high Priest . Exo. 28. e. 34. hems . By which things I cannot vnderstand , but the by the Pomgranardes which are of a swéete sauour , the Lorde would figure Iesus Christ , who hath bene to him a sacrifice of a swéet sauour : And admonisheth all the true pastors of his Church , to be by their holy life & conuersation , a swéet sauour of the Gospel vnto the poore and simple people , as S. Paul sayth , that he hath bene . By the Belles , that the high Priest ought to be heard when he entreth into the sanctuary , nor I doubt not but that also hée hath figured the preaching of the Gospell , by the which Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue awakened all the worlde : and after theire Ori. in Exo. 28 e. 34. example all the good shepheards of the Church and flock of Christ ought to doe , as Origine doth expounde it , sayinge : That the high priest should also haue round Bels about his bestment , the he entring into the Sanctuary , should be heard , and that he should not enter with silence . And those Bels which ought alwayes to sounde , are put in the hemme of the bestment , and that is to that ends that thou shouldest neuer holde thy peace vntill the ende of the worlde , but that alwayes thou bée hearde thereby , that thou doe dispute , and speake , as hée which sayth : Remember the ende or the latter thinges , and thou shalt not sinne . Beholde the exposition of Origine , the which I would gladlye they woulde followe , and that they woulde consider that sith that the time of ceremonies is past , we haue no more néede of their Belles , for to figure vnto vs that which hath bene figured of the high Priest : But the in stéede of the figure & shadow , they would giue vnto vs the veritie of the thinges figured , after the example of Iesus Christ , and of his Apostles : or if they will yet kéepe and holde vs in shadowes and figures , it is better for than to follow those of Moses , then to inuent & make for vs new , as they do . For they cannot finde better , nor more proper : If they doe ring or towle theyre Belles , for to call the people together to the Churche , for to preach vnto them the woord of God : or when any man is dead , for to admonish euery one of mans infirmitie & weaknesse , & to preach onto them the iudgment of God . & to teach euery one how he ought to prepare himselfe to dye , and to confirme & strengthen them in the hope of the resurrection , declaring vnto them that the bloude of Iesus Christ is the true Purgatory of the soules , and that there is none other , their ringing and singing would haue a little more appearance , and should be more conformable to the auncient Church : But they do it altogether for none other ende but to induce and leade the people to superstition , and for to strengthen them in their opinion of purgatory , making them Durant in Radiui . off . li. 1. Rub. de camp . & 4. li Rub. de ac . pont. ad alt. The , bells to driue away diuels . The banner & the crosse . to pray for the dead , without any word of God . But do they not yet alledge an other goodly reason , sayinge : that they doe ring their Bels in their processions , funerals , and at other times , to that ende to make the diuels afraide , and to compell them to flée : For they say that those are the trumpets of the Church militant , of which the Dyuell hath as great feare , as a tyrant hath when he heareth that one giueth him the Larame , and as the sounde of the Trumpets and Drummes of a puissaunt King or Prince , which is his enemy , and come for to discomfort him : For that cause say they , doe they carry the banner and the crosse , and that they cause the Bells to bée ronge and towled for the tempests , and also for to admonish the people to pray vnto God : But it were a great deale better that they would make suche admonitions Ephe. 6. c. 10 by the preaching of the Gospell , and that they woulde arme the people with the buckler of faith , & weapon them with the swoord of the spirite , which is the woord of God , for to defend them against the Diuell , & to driue him away . For these are the true weapons , which the Diuell feareth , and which S. Paul giueth to the Christian knight .

Hillarius .

If that little children , or any olde dreamers and fooles had held the opinion , one could not but laugh : But is it not great shame that such men who would be estéemed and counted the pyllers of the fayth , would forge and inuent such a Theology ? But haue they not good leasure to baptize the Belles ? Is The baptising of bells . not that to mooke and scoffe with Iesus Christe and hys baptisme , to baptize Brasse and insensible mettalles ? The aduenturers or vagabondes whiche baptized a Calfe , and called him a pyke for to eate him in Lente in stéede of a fishe , hadde not they more cause to doe for I doe , iudge that they thincke that one can driue awaye the Dyuelles as they doe the byrdes from the vanes . If the Dyuelles were lyke vnto the Bées , they woulde staye them rather : And I doe feare that it happeneth so well vnto them . For as farre as we can perceiue by their workes , there is not a people that hath so manye Dyuelles aboute them . But you haue lette Durant . in diui. off . si . 1. Rub de camp . out the beste , that is , they saye that at the solempne feastes wée muste ringe muche , and a longe time for to awaken the drunckardes , and those that sléepe . But will you haue mée tell you the true interpretation of The true signification of the belles . their Bels ? Consider the forme & fashion of a Bell. It hath a little head , but it hath the greater belly . Wherefore I cannot vnderstand , according to the Morrall , Allegoricall or Anagogicall sence , but that they doo signifie that they are no other thing but fatte and slouthfull bellyes , and that they Slouthfull bellyes . passe not on the head , but onely on the belly . And euen as they are but bellies , they doe also very well knowe that other men doe loue more the belly then the head , & notwithstanding that all haue a goodly belly , and loue it well , there are but a fewe which care much for the head , the brayne , wit and vnderstanding , nor which take any thought to haue it . Wherefore I beléeue that they haue determined so much to ringe theire Belles , that they maye breake altogether the heade of those whiche haue yet a verye lyttle , to that ende , that neyther wytte nor vnderstandinge myght abyde in them . In suche sorte that wée maye well make it a Prouerbe , as well as the auncientes haue made it of the Basinnes , Caudrons and Belles of Dodonaeus . Beholde the truest exposition friende Dodonaeum asdodonaes lebetes Zenodot . ex Aristoph . Eusebius that I can at this time gyue vnto thée : And thincke not that thou canst gyue vnto mée a better nor more proper : excepte peraduenture thou wylte saye , that they dooe the same after the immitation of the Gallots , Curets , and Corybants , Priestes of the Goddesse The Priests cl Cyble . Cyble the mother of Gods , whome they doe carrye vppon their shoulders in their processions , sounding of Cymballes , Herodot . Diodor. Drummes , Belles , and other such instrumentes , which doe make a great noyse , wyth the crye and sound of their Letanyes , which they goe singinge after : as manye Apule . de Asini li. 11. Lactan. lib. ca. 21. The feast and procession of Cible . auncient Authours doe witnesse , as well Panims as Christians , namely Lactantius which alledgeth some verses of Ouid , who among others , in a few woordes speaking of hir feast , comprehendeth all these things , saying :

Then foorthwith shal be heard the home , Ouid Fast . 4. of Berecynthia blow , Of Cyble graundame of the Gods , th approching feast to show . And Eunuches playing vpon Drums , whose noise the aire doth fill , And ringing out the braying blast , of Trumpet sounding shrill . She on their shoulders sitting soft , is borne about the Towne , By Priestes and seruaunts of hir owne , with noise and shriching sowne .

Epiphanius that good and learned Byshop and of great estimation among the auncients , did write a booke , that hée Epiphanius . made of heresies , saying , that ther were in his time , some women of Siria who did begin to carry in that sort the Image of the Virgin Mary and offered vnto it oblations : But hée Idolatry of the image of our Lady . saith that the same superstition and Idolatry was repressed and beaten downe through the diligence of good Bishops & pastors , knowing that the same was none other thing , but an imitation of the furor and madnesse of the Panims .

Wherefore Epiphanius , numbreth that errour in the Roule of the heresies that hée hath made . And yet neuerthelesse our Priests haue not ceased therefore to put it foorth , and more greater Idolatry then euer was among the Priests of Cyble and Isis , after whose example they doe carrye their Idolls , Relicks , Hearses and Shrines , and for to declare that they are their successours , they haue theire heads shauen , & their surples : & many other ornaments of lynnen and white cloth , as those had , as the Poet sayth :

Attending on the goddesse then , the crue both great and small , Ouid. Are clad in lynnen garments whyte , to honour hir withall .

And agayne he sayth .

These shauen Priests in white arayd , ensued the Goddesse grace , And making noyse with sound of Droms , did follow hir a pace .

Forasmuch then as it is thought that they make Diuells afrayde , and driue them away by the sounde of the belles , those there then oughte to make them tremble and quake . Wherefore I thinke that forasmuch as our Priestes doe say that their belles are the Trompettes of the great King , and that their streamers that they carry in their Processions , are his Enseigns and Banners , they ought also to carry and sound Drommes and Trumpets , for to make it better appeare vnto the Diuell , that they wil ioyne a strong battaile with him , & that they come not with false Enseignes , & that their quarrell is not the sport and play of lyttle children , and that they will not suffer Iuuena . Ft ingens semiturobscoeno sacies reuerenda minori . Mollia qui capta secuit genitalia testa . Dist. 36. ca. 1l . literatos Dist. 55. ca. si . quis To ring for the time . the auncient custome of their olde auncestours and predecessours to bée abolyshed whome we haue of late named , from whome they doe not much differ as touchinge their Ceremonyes : But the most greate difference that I can finde , is , that these héere are not so chast as the others are , bicause they are not gelded as they are . For that should be agaynst their orders and Canons , and manye women would be barren , if we had not such Saintes for to make them beare children . And as touching that that they doe ring their belles agaynst the time of thunderinges , lyghtenings and tempests , and that they doe coniure them , they cannot deny but in the same they do follow the Panims , who had their exorcismes , coniuratione , ringinges and other manner of doings agaynst them , which did not much differ from those of these héere . It is very true that the Arisioph . in Vesp . Quod si fulguraro popissant . Panims had not such belles , bicause they were not then vsed as they are now : But in steade of them they clapped their hands the one agaynst an other for to make an noyse , & made a noyse with their mouthes , for to appease Piin. li. 28. c. 2. Fulgura popisi nis adorare consensus gentium est . Holy woode . Remedyes against the lyghtning . The Baye tree . The sea Calues The Eagle . Plin. li , 2. c. 55 and quallyfie the thundrings and lyghtenings , after the manner as men doe clap their horses and make much of them , thinking that the same would serue in steade of a remedy , that the lyghtening should not strike them . Some did carry of the Baye trée , in stéede whereof we did carry woode , leaues and boughes and braunches of trées that had ben halowed vpon Palme Sunday , & of Easter flowers , or the skinnes of Sea Calues , bicause that among all the Sea beastes , men saye that lyghteninge will not touch the sea Calfe , nor the Eagle among the soules .

Thomas .

And for what serued the Baye trée ?

Hillarius .

They had this opinion , that lyghtning would neuer fall vppon it , nor could strike it , as almost all those the haue written of his propertie & nature doe witnesse it . They had also the arte and manner to coniure the tempests , To coniure the time Iupiter . Elicius . Ouid. Fast . 3. Numa Pompilius . and to make the God Iupiter come from heauen , for to adiure them and driue them away : the which they had learned and receiued of Numa Pompilius the second king of the Romaynes .

Theophilus .

I doe not finde in the Scripture that the people of God euer vsed such sorceries & coniurings , nor the they euer had any recourse to candels , holy water , holy wood , the bay trée , to the bells nor to the coniurations , for to driue away the lyghtnings & tempest . For that Tibullus . Hane ego ducentem de coelo sydera vidi : Fluminis haec rapidi carmine vertutur . Quum libet haec trists do●el lit nubila culo . appertayneth better vnto the Magicians , Sorcerers , & Enchauntors , who do attribute vnto themselues the power to moue the heauen and earth , to moue & stir vp the lyghtnings & tempests , & to appease them , & to plucke the Moone and the Stars from heauen . But the true seruaunts of God , in all daungers & perils , or if the heauen hath ben shut vp , so that it giueth no rayne : or if it sendeth hayles , thunders & tempests : or it famine , plague , or drought haue bene on the earthe : Quum libet aestiuo prouocat orbe niuer if the corne haue bene destroyed , or the Locusts & Caterpillers haue destroyed the goodes of the earth : or if they haue bene afflicted with any other kinde of plague or malady , they vse none other remedy but to tourne themselues to God only with prayers , with true repentaunce of the sinnes and amendment of lyfe . And the Lord hath alwaies heard them , according to the request the Salomon made vnto 3. Reg. 8. a. 1 2. Cro. 5. a. 1 him , when he dedicated to him his Temple .

Hillarius .

They make me to remember those mockers and dispisers of God , which were among the Panims , who did clappe their féet together agaynst the thunders & tempests , & for to Oppedere contra tonitiua . Salmoneut . Virg. Aeneid . 6 Vidi & crudelem dantem . Salmonia penas Dum slammas louis & souitus imitutur Olympi . The minstrels ●airus . Mat. 9 c 18. Mar. 5. c. 12 Luc. 8. f 41 shew themselues more wicked , did open their bellyes against them , in mocking & scoffing it : Of which these prouerbs do yet continue . Euen so it séemeth the those woulde mocke God , & counterfet these thunders as Salmoneus did .

Eusebius

You can declare and set forth vnto me nothinge but the Panims . But wherefore doe you not alleadge vnto me aswell the minstrells , and the singings , which the Israelites , that were the people of God , vsed in their burialls ? As it appeared by those which were in the house of Iairus the chiefe ruler of the Sinagoue when his daughter was dead , whom Iesus raysed to lyfe agayn , & yet he rebuked not the ministrells : the which he would not haue omitted if he had iudged the same to be euil . Wherefore may we not haue aswell bells & Priestes for to sing , as those had The Priests Minstrels . minstrels , for to incite & prouoke them to lamentacions & compassion vpon the dead , & to pray to God for them with a better courage ?

Theophilus .

You come to the ende of my matter , & by that compt the Priests doe serue vs in stéede of minstrels . But it is to be feared that Iesus will driue them out of his Church , as he auoyded out those of Iairus out of the chamber and house . For he will not haue Priests for the dead , nor he sent his Apostles and Disciples , but for those that be alyue . For the true Euangelical Priests & Ministers of the Church , ought to be lyke vnto the Phisitians , who are alwayes assistaunt vnto men asmuch as they can , and A comparisoa of the true Priestes and Phin●ous . help and succour them asmuch as is possible during their lyfe for to kéepe them in healthe , or to heale them when they are sicke , but after that they be dead , they haue no more to doe . For they cannot ayde nor helpe them any more , therefore they doe to them no more afterwards . But our Priestes are Phisitians , who suffer their Patients to dye , without helping them , after they will bring vnto them medicines when they are dead : But Iesus Christ would haue no such : as he hath giuen vs to vnderstande by the aunswere that he made to one of his disciples , which asked him leaue to goe and bury his father , saying : Suffer the Mat. 6. c. 12. It was forbidden the Priestes to be assistaunt at the buriall of the dead . Leuit. 21. 2. 1. dead to bury their dead . But what appearaunce is there , that Iesus Christ would occupy the Ministers of his church , and the true Cuangelycall Priestes about the dead , sith that God woulde not onely suffer that the high Prieste of the lawe , and the other Priestes should goe to the burials nor that they should come nye any dead bodyes , except they were their fathers or mothers , or any of their nigh kinsmenne ? The which thing he pernutted not to the highe Priest . The chaunce should be much chaunged , and the Gospell should haue made vs Priestes very contrary and differing much from those of the people of God . For wée doe not reade that euer they medled with the deade , nor that they prayed nor offred sacrifices for them , notwithstanding the they were vnder the shadows & figures of the law , and in the time of the sacrifices , which now thorow Iesus Christ are abolyshed . And our Priests doe serne vs alwayes for none other thinge , but to bóe letted about the dead .

Hillarius .

It were a great deale better to hire the minstrells and lamenters as the auncients dyd , then to nurrish and féede so many fat bellyes , with so great dayntyes , and costs . For we should pay them no mony but when we do set them to worke , and they will serue vs asmuch as those our Priestes , whome we must kéepe all the yeare longe , with great costes , charges and expeuces . I doubt not but that Moses did well foresee that . Therefore hath he thorow the spirite of God forbidden , that the Priestes should not be present at the burials . I had rather that they would doe as the Aegyptians did , who did put the body of their Diodorus The custome of the Aegyptians . king , when he was dead , before the entring in of the graue or sepulcher , afterwardes did reade a lystle booke contayning his actes , and that which the king had done during his lyfe . And he that would might disprayse them . The Priests were there present , who did examine an iudge of all the poynts . The people also were there present , and did clap their hands and reioyce at the praises of the king , and did vituperate and disprayse the vyces . The same gaue a certeyne feare vnto the kinges and Princes that they should not abuse their office , and did admonish them to be vertuous if they would haue prayse of men . for it did chaunce some times , that the king lyued so wickedly and detestable , that they did iudge him vnworthy to be buryed . The lyke did they of other men . In lyke manner the Greekes and Latines had a custome to prayse the bertuous The Grekes & Latines Panegyres Orationer fune bres . A custome to praise the deade men after their death , & to make Drations in their prayse , aswell for the consolation and comforte of their parents , as for to incitate and moue others vnto vertue , by theire examples . For that cause they doe rehearse their prowesses , their vertues and valyauntnesse . And to make an honest mention at sometime for to encourage others to bée vertuous . Thucidides witnesseth , that the custome to praise the dead did begin among the Greekes by Pericles , who Pericles . was the first that openly made an oration in the prayse of those which were dead in the warre of Peloponense . Also among the Romaines , Valerius Publicola was the first , Valerius Public●la . which after that manner praysed his companion Brutus , as witnesseth Titus Liuius . Afterwards that custome hath continued among the Gentiles & Idolaters , If our Priests would serue vs in that stead , the thing would be more tollerable : although the we haue the word of God sufficient inough for to merte & moue vs vnto vertue & honestie : But they serue vs to none other ende but to ease , and the greatest thoeues and vsurers , are those vnto whom they doe the greatest honours , and giue the greatest prayses , and doe bury them with greatest magnificence . But if any poore man doe bye , that hath not readye money , scant and with muche a doe shall hee haue one Priest sor to beare him companye , nor one scant to ringe the lyttle bell .

Theophilus .

There is no doubt but the the auncient Christians , bicause the some were come of the Iewes , & some of the panims , haue yet hept many of the manners and customes that they vsed in their countryes , the which yet neuerthelesse they haue chaunged into a better vse . For the Iewes and Panims had many things , which of themselues might be tollerable , and to serue to some kinde of honestie and cluilitie , if the supersticion and the foolish opinions had bene taken away . In the auncient Churche Commemoration of the dead . when that any faythfull man was dead béeing constant in the fayth of Iesus Christ , and that he made a goodly confession in his death , they vsed to make a commemoration to the congregation , for to incite and stirre vp others to such faithe and constantnesse , and chiefely when he hath bene killed by the Tyrants , and that he hath bene the true Commemoration of the Martirs martir of Iesus Christ , & in the mids of his torments hath constantlye confessed the truthe , and hath witnessed it by his death , and sealed it by his bloude . For that cause the Notaries and pronotaries . Plati . in vit. Clem Ant he . lul . & Fabi. Notaryes and Protonotaryes were constituted and appoynted , who were charged to write truely and after the truth the Ecclesiasticull historyes , the lyues and dooings of the holy Martirs , & true seruaunts of God , for the edification of the Church and congregation : for at certein times they made commemoration vnto the Congregation of the fayth and constantnesse of the Martirs , for to comforte and for tesie the poore faythfull in the middes of the persecutions that they suffered for Iesus Christ , to the ende that after the example of the Martirs , they shoulde prepare themselues rather to dye valyantly for the witnesse of the truth , then to renounce and forsake it . And the Dration and Sermon that Saint Ambrose made for Ambrose and Theodosius . the Emperour Theodosius after that he was dead , tended to none other ende . And when the good auncient byshops praysed after that sorte the good seruants of God , that had faithfully trauailed in his worke & vyneyard , they did go about no other thing by that meanes , but to edifie the congregation with good examples , euen as the holy prophets and Apostles haue described vnto vs the holy scriptures , the liues and actes of holy men , which haue bene called of God , for to instruct and teach vs by their example . This manner of doing was not altogether to be despised , and it might be practised to ediflcation , if sathan the enemie vnto all goodnesse had not altogether conuerted and turned it into superstition , Idolatry , and blasphemie , as wee see and proue it dayely . For from those beginninges the Prothonotaries are descended , whome wée haue yet at this present time , who keepe onelye the name Prot honotaries of name . without exercising the office . For to what ende doe they serue vs ?

Hillatius .

To hunt after and so laye wayte for benefyces . What woulde you they shoulde doe , woulde you haue them to wrytte and register the lyues of our Popes , Cardinals , Byshoppes , Priests and Moonkes ? They will leaue the charge of that The legend of the Papists . vnto the Lutheriaus , whiche are their protonotaries , for to describe and paint out the legend of such saints and Martyrs of Venus , rather then of Iesus Christe . For theyr lyfe and conuersation is so holy , that they had rather that men woulde neuer speake of it , and that the remembraunce thereoff shoulde bée altogether defaced and forgotten . Yet I thincke that they rendered no greate thanckes vnto Platine who hathe wrytten so muche , althoughe that he tourned the sayest side outwardes as Platins nigh as hée coulde .

Theophilus .

Thys is yet the leaste faulte of the Prothonotaries : But from that same fountayne is risen and sprong vp the errour of inuocation of Saints , The errour touching the honour & inuocation of saints of feasts , wanderings , blessings , relycks , pilgrimages , and all other Idolatry and supersticions , which men do commit dayly about the Saints . For wheras in the auncient Church men did but onely make mention of the lyfe , faith and constantnesse of the Martirs and Saynts when the people assembled themselues in the Ecclesiasticall assemblyes , without inuocating or praying to the Saynts , but onely vnto God : Afterwards in processe of time , the supersticious and Idolatrous Christians , haue made of the Saynts Gods , and haue dedicated to them , Feasts , Temples , Aultars and Chappells . And haue begonne to sing Canenization Herodia . Himnes and supersticious songs in their honour & prayse , after the same manner as the Panims and Idolaters did to their Binges and Emperours , when they Ca●onized them . And are not content to preach their lyues and Legende , as the auncients did : but haue added vnto it fables and lyes . and haue made to them Masses , in such sort , that Masses of saints for one supper of Iesus Christ , we haue more then thrée hundreth nullyons of Masses , all contrary and differinge the one from the other . By that meanes the Prophecie , the preaching of the worde of God , the Supper of Iesus Christ , Prayers , and Ecclesiasticall assemblyes , and the true commemoration of the Saints , are altogether abolyshed , in such sorte that there is nothing , but that it is altogether peruerted and tourned into more greater superstition and Idolatry , then euer it was among the Panims . As much happened about the other faythful that dye , which are not counted for Canomsed Saynts . For as on the one The original & beginning of the prayers lot the dead . side they are giuen to inuocat & pray to the Saynts , whom they beléeue to bée in Heauen : Euen so on the other side , they giue themselues to praye for the deade , whom they thinke to haue yet neede of their prayers and good deedes , for to helpe them , and to prepare the waye to Heauen , ●● steede of the simple commemoration that they did in the auncient Chruch , without vsing praiers for the health of their soules . but only exhortation , adm●nitions & consclatiōs , for the health and saluation of those that be aliue . After that manner ought we to vnderstand that whiche the auncient Ecclesiasticall doctors haue written of the faythfull that dye , and of the care that we ought to haue of them . And if peraduenture it be so that Sainct Ambrose , Crisostome , Cyprian , Hierome , Augustine , or any other the like , doe séeme to haue written otherwise , yet neuerthelesse they will not allow such superstition as is at this day amonge the Christians : And although they should haue done it , yet we are not bound to bel●eue them , without the authoritye of the Scripture . We are most certaine of our side , that there is no place in all the holy scripture , by which one can proue that manner of dooing , except one will marre and peruert the sence thereof . And for to declare the same more playnly , I demaund of thée , what the Priestes do in the name of the dead , doe they it for those whiche are in hell ?

Eusebius .

Thou mayst well perceiue they doe it not . For they themselues do sing , that in hell there is no redemption , Quia in inferno nulla est redemptio . Luc. 16. g. 26. as it is playnly declared vnto vs by the aunswer that Abraham made vnto the wicked ryche man , saying that there is a greate space betwéene those whiche are in the places of blessednesse , and those whiche are in hell fire , vnto whom the riche cannot haue somuch only as one droppe of water for to put vpon his toungue for to coole it .

Theophilus .

Haue those who are alreadye in Paradise with the blessed any profit , of their suffrages and prayers .

Eusebius .

They haue no more néede of them . The Priests doe not pray but for those which are in Paradise .

Theophilus .

And yet neuerthelesse they pray not but for those that be there , and I will take none other witnes then themselues to proue it . I pray thée consider and examine wel the Epistle taken out of the Reuclation of S. Iohn , which they sing in their Masse for the dead & marke viligently howe it agréeth with their Lugentibus in Purgatorio : And how is it possible that the faithfull that dye should be rosted and tormented in Purgatorye , and that they should be at rest , as they sing both the one and the other , speaking against themselues . They sing : Blessed are Apoc. 14. c. 13 Beati mortui qui in Dommo moriuntur . A modo iam di●it spiritus , vs reautesant a laboribus suis . Opera en●m lilorum sequuntur illos . The estate of the faithfull that doe dye those which hereafter dye in our Lorde , euen so saith the spirite , that they do rest from their laboures , But theyr workes shall follow them . First they say : Blessed are they which dye in the Lord. And who be those that dye in the Lord , but the good , faithfull and the Christians ? If they then are blessed , all the other which do not dye : in the fayth of our Lord , are cursed .

Eusebius .

I denie it not .

Theophilus .

Wherein consisteth that blessednesse and felicitie ? doth not Sainct Iohn giue the reason , alleaging not his authority , but the authority of he spirite of God , that he himselfe hath heard ? saying : hereafter they rest from their laboures . Thou doest well perceiue that they are called blessed , bicause that by death they go and depart from the trauayles and wickednesse of this world , and after the same doe go into eternall rest and ioy , Syth then that it is so , what neede they anye longer to sing : Requiem eternam dona eis domine : O Lord giue them eternall rest , syth that they haue it alreadye ? For they doe not pray but for those which are dead in our Lord.

Eusebius .

Thou interpretest the scripture for thine aduauntage and as it pleaseth thée .

Hillarius .

Eusebius is always a good Gregorianist . But I do greatly feare that he Gregorianists . shall not escape Purgatory in the ende .

Eusebius .

You shall not yet plucke it out of my handes for all that . For Sainct Iohn speaketh there properly , of the faithfull , which haue suffred , and which haue bene killed for the witnes of the truth . For those haue suffred sufficiently in this world , and haue had their Purgatorie . and accomplisned their penaunce . He speaketh not generally of all the Christians , but only of the Martirs , whom the greate beast hath persecuted .

Theophilus .

I agree vnto thee that the holy spirit speaketh that , chiefely for the consolation of the poore that be afflicted , whiche suffer persecution for the name of Iesus , promising vnto them rest , after the trauayles and wickednesse of this mortall life , for to fortefie and strengthen them in the crosse , to that end they may be more patient in tribulation , and that they shoulde perseuer and continue boldlye and stedfastly vnto the ende . But you can not denye , but that the sentence is generall , and that it comprehendeth all the faithfull . For they cannot bee faithfull without bearing rightly the crosse of Iesus Christ , and without hauing great paine and trauayle , after whiche they looke for rest . And least thou shouldest thinke that I haue alledged that place euill to the purpose , I will tell thée yet farther , that it maketh not onelye Purgatorie to fall downe , but also the inuocation of Saincts . For sith that rost from The inuoca●tion of saints their labours is promised vnto the Saincts , and that the prayers whiche the holy men make for their neighboures , whilest they are in this life , are comprised and contayned amongst the laboures of the sainctes , we may conclude , that ●fter that they haue ended the course of this mortall life , and finished their combat , that they rest them that laboure as well as the other . For they haue no more neede but to prayse God , and to giue him thankes , and oughte no more to be occupied for to serue men , sith that they are out of all necessitie , and that they haue ended the ministry that they had amonge menne . At the leastwise , althoughe that it bee , wée haue not in all the holy scripture . example nor yet authority , for to endure and léad vs to inu●cate them : But we haue not now to debate vpon that poynt , I haue onelye desired to touche the same by the waye . As to the other matter , touch 〈◊〉 Purgatory , for to take front thee that fantasie whiche thou haue against● my interpretation . I will confyrme it vnto thée by the verye interpretatyou of the Priestes , taken from the chiefest of the Canon of theyr Masse . Marke well the Memento that they saye when they sing Masse for the dead .

Hillarius .

Peraduenture hoe will not heare thée bicause he is altayd to be excommunicatod . And also hel● da●e you recyte it● For you know verye well that it is forbidden The Canon of the Masse & the Ale●ron are forbidden to be read . vnder paine of excommunication to all those that bée not Priestes , to reade the Canon , and to recyte it .

Theophilus .

Aswell is the Alcoran of Mahomet , vnder paine of death : But I will not be a frayd to read it for all that if I had it . For I buylde my selfe vpon S. Paul , which sayth : Cramine all things and kéepe that whiche 1. Thess● . 5. ● . 21. is good .

Thomas .

But it is otherwise of the Canon of the Masse for it is to be feared , that if the lay people shoulde heare the sacramentall wordes pronounced , they woulde doe as the Priest , and that thereby would come greate hurte . As Clythoueus doth declare and witnes moste euidently in his Clith . Eluci . li. 3. de . Cano. Clucidatory by the example of certaine Shepehardes , who bicause they haue heard and kept in mind the sacramental wordes , did put bread vpon a stone , afterwardes they pronounced the wordes . That bread ( as they saye ) was conuerted and changed into fleshe , after the pronunciation of & wordes . But fire and lightning fell sodeinly downe from heauen vpon them and killed them all .

Hillarius ,

The witnesse is well worthy of the Doctor , from whom it procéeded . But he is not the first that hath inuented that fable . For Durant and others , that haue written of that matter dothe almoste all of them alledge it .

Theophilus .

Wherefore then hath Iesus Christ commaunded Rat. diui. off . li. 4. Nico. de plone . in tract . sacerd The Gospell published to all men Mat. 26. b. 26. Mar. 14. h. 13 Luc 22. h 19 1. Cor. 11. c. 24. that his Gospell shoulde bee preached vnto all creatures , without excepting eyther the lay people or the ignorant , vnto whom yet neuerthelesse the supper is recited all at length ? Wherefore hath not he warned his Apostles to keepe those wordes secret ? And wherefore haue they published and written it all at length in their Gospel bookes , which ought to be in the handes of all Christians ? Is the Canon of the Masse more worthy & more holy then the holy Gospell of Iesus Christ ?

Eusebius .

ye ought not to iest or mocke : For you doe not yet know that God doth behold you . What sayest thou of the Canon and Memento of the dead ? Art thou so foolish and bolde that thou wilt finde fault wyth it ?

Theophilus .

First make what it conteineth , and after The Memento of the dead . Nemento elian Domine famili orum & familiarumque tuarum N. qui nos processerunt cum signo fidei & dormiunt in sonno pacis † ipsis domine & omnibus in Christo quie seētibtes locum refrigerij lucis & pacis vt indulgeas de precamur . per eundem dominum Iesum Christum . Amen . A true history . thou shalt vnderstand what I will say ?

Eusebius .

I am very well content . For I am very sure that you shal finde nothing to reproue me .

Theophilus .

I will recite it vnto shee worde for worde , that thou shouldest not thincke that I haue eyther added or diminished any thing for mine own pleasure : Remember O Lord thy men seruants and thy women seruaunts , who haue gone before vs with the signe of faith and doe rest in the sléepe of peace , We bes●ech thée O Lord , that it would please thée to graunte vnto them and vnto all those that rest in Christ , place of comfort , lyght and peace , through our Lord Iesus Christ , Amen . First , after that the Priest hath sayd : R●member O Lord thy men seruauntes , women seruaunts , and handmaydes , there is an N●in a redde Letter , which signifieth in that behalfe that ye must expresly name those , for whome the Masse in song , and in whose name the money is payde for , saying it .

Hillarius .

I do know a man that sometime had bene a Priest , and now lyueth honestly , after the reformation of the Gospell who dyd confesse vnto me , that all the while that he was a Prieste , that hée kept very good countenaunce in singinge Masse , vntyll hée came vnto that place : But when he was come to the commemoration of those women and handmaydens , they entered so much into his head , that afterwardes he could not haue his spirite in quiet .

Eusebius .

Bicause that he was an whooremonger , hée Mariage of priestes coulde not lyue chastlye , but gaue hymselfe to bee one of your societye , for to breake hys volue and to mary .

Hillarius .

Hath he not done better , than to burne through concupisence and transgresse the commaundement of God 1. Cor 7. b. 9 Mat. 15. a. 3. Mat. 14. a. ● The vowe of Herode . Whoredome . for to keepe his vow , as Herode who caused Iohn Baptist to be beheaded , for to keepe his oth ? Hath not he done better then those fat whooremongers , who had rather to perseuer in their whoredome , and to abide stil in their filthines , then to vse the holy mariage which God hath giuen to bée 1. Cor. 7. 3. 2 a remedy vnto all those that haue not the gift of continency : of which they do wel know how farre they are ●rom it . God knoweth what goodly redemers & aduocats the soules haue of them , betwéene God & them . Now much do you thinke that they haue , who do thinke more vpon their handmaides when they saye their Memento , then on the soules of Purgatory , for whome they doe singe the Masse ? And although that their doctrine were true , they make you often Idolaters . For although that they affirme that the body of Iesus Christ and God be realy in the hoast , yet neuerthelesse their booke , whiche they call Rationale diuinorum Rationale diui norum officiorum officiorum , witnesseth that if the Priest hath not the intent to consecrate when he pronounceth the sacramentall The intent to consecrate . wordes , he doth not consecrate . And so by that means it is not God , but the bread abideth still bread . And consequently all those which doe worship it are Idolaters . For they doe worship the bread , and not God . Wherefore I referre it to thine owne selfe to thinke , when those maidseruauntes doe enter into their minde , and such other fantasies , which are as good stuffe , what intent they haue , when they thinke thereon , and what God they can forge .

Thomas .

By that reckening the Priest whiche was A true history in the yere 1538. of a Priest that was a forcerer and of his . whoore burned at Rolle in the time of Lent. burned of late at Rolle , which is betwéene Lausanna and Geneua , for that he was a Sorcerer ought to haue made the people Idolaters . For he confessed that he was xxiiij . yeares a Sorcerer . And which is more , hée had also hys whoore which was a Sorceresse , who was burned aswell as he , who did make hir a Sorceresse . Forasmuche then as he denyed God , Creame and Baptisme , as all Sorcerers doe confesse in their proces ( if it bée so ) what fayth can he haue to the Masse , and what consecration ought he to make ?

Hillarius .

The Papistes doe thincke that the same is well prouided for by the counsayle which the booke aboue alledged gyueth them . For to auoyde such an inconucnience , he counsayleth the Christian that he doe worship the hoast with such condition , saying in his heart : Lord god if thou art there , I doe worship thée : if thou art not ther , I doe not worship thée . And that counsaile is taken from Tho. in li. 3. sen. dist. 9. 10. Ludo. viual . de monte regali . in aur. oope . de . ver. t. con● The buylding of the faith of transubstantiacion Thomas Aquinus , who resolued that question after the sort . For by that condicion all adoration , if ther be but bread , he auoydeth to be an Idolater . But I pray thée consider a little , whether that our fayth be well builded , seing that it is builded vpon the intent of a Priest , and howe that it can be faith , séeing alwaies that it is in doubt .

Eusebius .

Thou art a slaunderer . For all the Doctours say not so ?

Hillarius .

I do well know that they are not all of one agréement and that Nicholas de Ploue , sayth , that the intent is necessarily requisite , and not the attent , and that it sufficeth Nicolaur de ploue intentio non attentio . in tract . sacerd. that the Priest haue a general intent to consecrate , although that he be not alwaies attentiue , and thincke not still on that that he sayth and doeth , wherein neuerthelesse hée sinneth greatly . All doe trauaile as much as they can to finde reason out of reason . But it sufficeth me so that the same which I speake be written in the booke whiche gyueth the reason of your diuine seruice and ceremonies .

Theophilus .

Thou hast no good manner , in alwaies interrupting vs in our talk .

Hillarius .

What wilt thou haue me to doe ? When I remember the great follies that they haue spoken & done , I am constrained to make some parenthesis , & some little digression . But leue not off to return vnto thy matter & to go forward with it . I beleeue that thou hast not forgotten it . That followeth afterwards which thou hast said of the menseruaunts & maidseruaunts : which haue gone before vs with the signe of faith , & do rest in the sléep of peace .

Theophilus .

Thou séest already Eusebius , for The priests do pray but for those which are already in Paradise whom they pray , to wit for those , of whom S. Iohn speaketh off in the Apocalips , which are dead in our Lord , & rest from their labours . For to dye in our Lord , & to go with the signe of faith , to rest from their labours , & to rest in the sléepe of peace , is all one . And Clithoue himselfe is constrained In Eluci . 3. can . expo . to expounde those woordes by the same of Saint Iohn . Wherefore thou maist know , that they doe praye but for those which are already in Paradise . For there are none other whiche doo rest in the sléepe of peace but those . It followeth then that they doe also pray for that virgin . To pray for the Virgin Mary & the Saynts Mary and for all the Saintes of Paradise . Now let vs heare what thing they require for them . Wée beséech thée that it would please thoe to graunt vnto them and vnto all those that rest in Christ , place of comfort , lyghte and peace : If they rest in Iesus Christ , are they not already in place of comfort , lyght and peace ? Otherwyse I know not what it is to rest in Iesus Christe , seeinge that it is written . That although that the righteous be ouertaken Sapl . 4. 7. wyth death , yet shall he be in reste . If they be in a fire , as the wycked rich man , of whom thou hast spoken , & that they doe burne as they make vs beléeue , what difference is there betwéene them and the dampned ? Thou knowest very well that Lazarus who was in Abrahams Luc. 16. 22 bosome , and who rested in the sléepe of peace , bicause that he was departed from this world , with the signe of faith that he had in the promises made vnto Abraham , & of the séede of blessednesse , was in a place far differing from the other , in which he rested in ioy , pleasures and delights . For if after that the faythfull be called f●om this world , he wero kept in the fire , in what rest should he be from his laboures ? Should he not be in worse estate then he was before ?

Hillarius .

After that I haue laboured al the day , & haue much sweated , it I must go into a furnase when I should go to bed , for to rest my selfe in the same al night , I woulde neuer go to bed .

Theophilus .

But where should be the promise of Iesus Christ who hath said so oftentimes : Hée that beléeueth in me hath euerlasting life and shall not come The promises of God contrary vnto the papisticall purgatory . Iohn . 5. 24 into condempnation , but hath passed from death vnto life ? And that which S. Paul saide , now then there is no condempnation to thé that are in Christ Iesus , which walke not after the flesh , but after the spirit .

Eusebius .

That is not repugnant : For those which are in purgatory are alredy Rom. 8. 1. assured that they shall not be dampned . But they shal haue eternal life ; after that they haue satisfie● for their sins . Theophilus . Sith that there is such punishment , it must néedes bée that it hath iudgement and condemnation : For God punisheth not without iudgeing : And I knowe not how wée can make the opinion agree with so many goodly promises which God hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes , and by all the holy Scriptures : nor yet with that whiche the Priests themselues doe singe in the prose of the deade , The prose or prayer of the dead . Dies irae , dies ●lla . which beginneth : Dies irae , dies illa soluet seculum , &c. They doe say in a little verse .

O king of reuerent maiesty , which sauest all soules freely , From euill Lord deliuer me , thou fountaine of all clemencie .

They céerely and plainely confesse that wée are saued through grace , and doe vse thys aduerbe , Gratis , which signifieth froely and franckly . Wherein they doe very well agrée to that which Sainct Paul witnesseth , saying : You are iustified fréely by his grace . That is not then by our Rom. 3. d. 24 : Rom. 21. a. 6 Gal. 2. d. 16 Ephe. 2. b. ● woorkes , and satisfactions : For then were grace no more grace . I doe much meruayle how that good woorde escaped them .

Hillarius .

I thincke that the same chaunsed bicause of the rime , for to make all rime in Atis. For in the first verse there is :

Rex tremende maiestatis . And for to make all to be in Atis , they haue sayd : Qui saluandos saluas gratis , Salua me sons pietatis . Theophilus .

Now do those satisfactions agrée with that that the Lorde promised , sayinge : if the vngodlye will Eze. IS . c. 21 tourne away from all his sinnes that hée hath done , they shall not be thought vppon any more : Also though our sins shal be as red as scarlet , purple , or the worme that commeth Esa. 1. e. 18 out of the earth , he will make them as white as woll & the snow , and will caste all our sinnes behinde his backe , and Esa. 38. 17 wyll putte them as farre ( as Dauid witnesseth ) as the East is from the West , and wyll cast them in the bottome Psa. 105. 12 Mich. 7. 19. of the sea .

Eusebius .

Wherefore then reserued he yet paines vnto Dauid , after that the faulte was pardoned 2. Reg. 12. 15. 16. 1● . & 18 The punishment of Dauid him , insomuch that he was driuen from his kingdome by his owne sonne Absalom ? Wherefore punished & chastised he him , after that the Prophet Nathan had declared vnto him the remission of his sinne ?

Theophilus .

For what cause God chastiseth vs in this world When God chastised Dauid , & when he chastiseth vs euery day , bicause of our sinnes , he doth it not so much , for the sinne which hath bene committed , as for to aouertise and admonish vs , that we do not sinne heereafter . And the paine that we beare is not for to satisfie God . For ther is none other Satisfaction sor the sinnes satisfaction then the death & passion of Iesus Christ , that he can allow to be sufficient . For if we must satisfie for our selues , we must beare & cary all the importable burthen of the wrath and iudgement of God . Now if we must beare them , there is none of vs but should haue his shoulders broken , and should be plunged & drowned in the goulfe & bottome of hell with the Diuels . For if the Angels could 2. Pet. 2. 4 not beare it , which of vs shall be sufficient , which are but wormes of the earth ? And wherfore did God our good father send vs Iesus Christ to helpe vs , but to that end that he would beare it & satisfie for vs , & that thorow his satisfaction Iohn 3. 16 Rom. 3. 24 we should be reconciled vnto God , & deliuered from his iudgement ? Seing then that God our father hath the satis●action of Iesus Christ his sonne , which is more then sufficient for vs all , he requireth for vs none other satisfaction . And if hee require good woorkes of vs , he requireth What workes God requireth of vsand 10 : what ende them not for satisfaction , for they are too insufficient : But for prayses and giuing of thanckes , and wytnesses of our faith , & of the remembraunce that wee haue of the benefites that hoe hathe gyuen vnto vs in his sonne Iesus Christ , and for to incite our bretheren for to prayse and magniste hym . Therefore sayde Iesus Christe vnto hys Dysciples . Let your lyght so shine before men , that Mat. 5. 16 they maye sée your good woorkes and glorifie your Father which is in heauen . Hée sayde not to the ende that by them , you shoulde satisfie for your sinnes : or that you shoulde merite the kingdome of heauen , and bée iustyfied . For the faythfull man hath obteyned alreadye all that by the fayth of Iesus Christe , whiche is Rom. 3. 22. Gala. 2. 16 1. Cor. 1. 30 our wisedome , ryghteousnesse , sanctification , thorowe whose merite Paradise is gyuen vnto vs . For that cause the holye Apostle calleth the eternall lyfe , the gift of GOD . Wherefore wée maye vnderstande that we meryte it not thorowe our good déedes , but it is gyuen Rom. 6. 23. Merite & grace vs froelye , thorowe Gods lyberalytie : Euen as the Fathers enheritaunce is gyuen vnto the sonne : not for that he hath deserued it , but bycause that hée pleased hym so , for that hee loued him , and that hée is hys chylde , and wyll gyue hym his goodes fróely . Otherwyse grace Rom. 6. 6. shoulde bée no more grace , but debte . On the contrary , when Saynct Paul did speako of the eternall death , hée Rom. 6. 23. calleth it the wages of sinne : declaringe thereby that man hathe well deserued it , and that hée can deserue none other thinge , but that that wages is due vnto Iohn . 15 hym , for a recompence of the seruice that hée hathe done vnto the Diuell , the Prince of this worlde , euen as the wages which is payde vnto a souldyer , for bearynge of weapons vnder hys Capitayne . Wee 〈◊〉 then sée that The workes of the Angels and of the elect . the woorkes done by the chyldren of God , and the seruice that the Angelles doo● vnto hym , doe tende all vnto one ende , to witte , to glorifie GOD and to sanctyfie his name . Euen as then the Angelles serue not GOD for to merite Paradyse , of whiche they are alreadye in possession , neyther for satisfaction of theire sinnes , of whithe they are not entangled : But onelye for the loue that they haue in GOD , and the desyre of hys glorye , so Gods electe doe regarde none other thinge , for they are alreadye washed and purged 1. Cor. 6. 11 Apo. 1. 8. Act. 15. 9. Iohn . 13. 14 from theire sinnes by the bloud● of Iesus Christ , and theyre hearte puryfied by the faythe in hym , and thorowe the woorde that they haue hearde of hym : And are already possessors of the kingdome of heauen in hope : the which is no lesse sure and certeine , then if the thinge were present , and that the Angels are assured of that that they haue . Therefore the holy Apostle sayth , that wee Rom. 8. e. 44. Ephe. 1. ●1 . ●0 are saued thorowe hope , and that Iesus Christ doth make vs sitte in the heauenly places . And therefore when God doth chastise and cortect vs in this worlde , that is , as the Apostle also writeth vnto the Corinthians , for to correct and chastise vs , that we should not be damned wyth the worlde and the Infidels : bicause that we are yet in the waye , and 1. Cor. 11. g. 31 capable of chastisment and ainendement , But there is an other reason after thys lyfe héere , when wee are out of the waye ; and néede , and that wee cannot any more empayre nor amend : And therefore the Lorde doth chasten vs héere , as the good Father who beateth not his sonne for to haue The chastisen●t of a father towardes his clulde . any recompence thereby for the faulte that hée hath committed : For the paine of the childe bringeth no profite vnto the Father . Also he doth not beat him through rigor nor throughe mallice that hée hath to take vengeaunce of him : For hée loueth him as his childe , and the fatherly affection maketh him soone forget the faultes and iniuries that he hath done vnto him : As it is cleerely shewed vnto vs in the Father of the prodigall childe . Luc. 15. ● . 22.

Eusebius .

What hath the father then to do to chastise him ?

Theophilus .

If hée knewe that he woulde neuer doe any more fault he would soone pardon him , without any punishment : But fearing least thorow his great patience ● gentlenesse shoulde fall agayne , hee is constrained to beate and chastise him , although that he doe , it not willingly , but it to that ende to make hym more prudent and wyse , and to better aduise himselfe in time to come , and that he take diligent heede not to sall againe in the fault or in any other greater . The which is no more to be feared in those whome , GOD hath called from this worlde . Wherefore they cannot anye more rectius punishment whiche shoulde be to c●n●en them as is the same of the father towards his child , for to amend him . But if there hée a punishment , The punishment of the malefactors . it is rather , to declare the iudgement & the seuerity of God towards the wicked and reprobates , and to manyfest his goodnes and mercy towardes his elect : As the Iudge doth condemne the traytor , murtherer and other malefactors , that haue deserued death , not for to haue any recompence , nor those vnto whom they haue done wronge and iniury . For what recompence can they haue by their deathes ? neyther do they it for to cause them to walke in time to come more vprightly , sith that they take from them their life : But for to satisfie righteousnes , and to mayntaine it , to that end that other may take example , and that they may know how auayleable it is to haue followed vertue and eschewed vice .

Eusebius .

To what purpose then doth Sainct Iohn Apo. 14. c. 13 Obie cten O pera . N. illorum sequuntur illos . What ●orkes follow the dead . in his reuelation say : Their works do follow them ? what workes do follow them , but the good déedes that men doe for them after their death ? For those that they haue done whilest they lyued went before , not after . Wherefore it followeth that there are some other which do profit them .

Theophilus .

Sainct Iohn speaketh it bycause that their workes do beare witnes that they are the children of God . He sayth not other mens workes , but theyr owne workes . For as man lyueth of his owne soule , and not of the soule of an other mans , euen so doth the righteous man of his faith . And as the righteous man lyueth of his faith , & not of the faith of an other , euen so shal euery one be iudged according to his workes , and not after Abac. 2. a. 4. Rom. 1. b. 17 Rom. 2. a. 6 those that other men shall doe . For it is written : Euery one shall beare his owne burthen . And therefore Iesus Christ sayth : by thy worde & thou shalt bee iustified : and by thy wordes thou shalt be condemned : That is so saye thy Gala. 6. b. 5 Mat. 12. d. 37. Wherefore the Iudgement shal be according to the woorkes wordes and thy workes shal beare witnes , of thy heart , and by them thou shalt , bée iuslified , that is to saye , absolued , declared and pronounced iust and righteous : O● by them thou shalt be condem●ned , knowen and iudged worthy of death and condemnation . Not that God néedeth any witnes of our workes , for to know whether we are worthy of absolution or condemnation . For he knoweth the hearts , & néedeth none other witnes but his owne . Psa. 159. a. 2 〈◊〉 . 9 〈◊〉 . 30 〈◊〉 . 4 But the scripture vseth such manner of speaking for to apply it to our capacitie , for to manifest & declare vnto vs better the Iust Iudgement of god , which wil shew foorth the h●pecri●e of man heart . For man how wicked soeuer his heart be , he wold alwaies hide it : & if one put it to his own cō●c●éce although that he do condemne it , he wil not for y● leaue off to aduasice & brag he y● le an honest man , vntil such time as he he také with his wicked déed , as the theefe with his stea●ing . For he is so peruers & wicked although that be be taken with the deed , he wil excuse himself : And as the shameles whore , is not a shamed to deny the which we see with our eyes , & hanole with our hands : As we haue an example in Came. Although Gene. 4. b. 9. that he killed his brother , and that his handes were yet all blouddy and wette with the bloud that he ●ad shed , it seemeth to heare him speake , that God did vnto him greate miury and wronge , in asking him where he is . And therefore God would vanquishe the malyce and peruersitie of mans hearte , and condemne it by the workes that are manifest , for to declare vnto him , and to make him confesse by the fruite , that he is the roote a●d the tree , to the ende that he may not glorify himself to be the Figge & the O life Mat. 7. c. 16 tree , when one doth emdently shewe vnto him the thornes & thistles that it hath born . And euen so euery creature is constrayned to acknowledge and conf●sse , that the iudgement of God is iust , and that it consisteth in all truth and equitie . Now the workes that men do for vs , after that wee The works dene for vs after our death . bee dead , are not ours . Wherefore wee cannot saye , that they follow vs . For it is another matter to bee in the way and iourney , and to haue already ended his iourney and to be arriued at the port , whylest that we are in the course of this present life , he taketh vs as a sree which yet groweth , the which one may dresse and proyne , for to To be in the way make him beare fruite . But when he is once cut downe , ther is no more hope , he lieth wher lie falleth , he must trauayle no more afterwards . In like maner may we iudge of man . Whilest that he is in the way , & that he is in his course & Luc. 13. b. 6 sight , one may aide him by admonitions , entreatings & other morkes of charitie , which we owe y● one to that other , whilst that we are herein the work of god , for vs to helpe the one the other to obteine & win the victory . But after that he hath called vs from the worke in the which he hath set vs , wée must attend and looke no more but for the rewarde and Crowne of righteousenes , the which the righteous Iudge shall giue vnto vs , as Sainct Paul hoped for himselfe , as 2. Timo. 4. b. ● we haue fought for him the good fight , and haue fulfilled our course and haue kept the faith vnto the ende : On the contrary , we must looke for feare , confusion , and eternall death , as the slougthfull seruant , vnfaithfull and vngrations , we haue hid away and stollen the Talent away Mat. 25. c. 26 from our Maister , without bringing vnto him any profit . Mat. 3. b. 8. Therefore Sainct Iohn saith : Bring foorth fruites worthy of repentance : that is to say , thorow which you shewe foorth that truely you repent you of your sinnes , and that you haue amended your euill life . For the are is put vnto the roote of the tree , so that euery tree whiche bringeth not foorth good fuite , is hewen downe and cast in to the fire . Uppon that ma●ter Sainct Augustine did writte Mat. 3. c. 10. vnto Macedonius after this manner : There is no other place for to correct and amende manners , then in this life . Augu. Epist. 54 For after this life euery one shall haue that that hee hath gotten here . And in another place he saith : In this world the Sermo 66. de tempore mercy of god helpeth those that rep●t : But in the world to come repentance profiteth not , but we must rīder accompt of our works . Liberty of repentance is only giuen vnto vs in this life , after that we be dead there is no more licr̄ce of correction . Now is the time of mercy , after wards shal be the time of iudgment . And in expounding those words of Iesus Christ : Hee In 10. tract . 12. Marc. 16. d. 16 which beleeueth not is already iudged , saith after this manner . The iug●ei●ēt appereth not yet , but the iudgement is already done . For the Lord knoweth who are his . He knoweth 2. Tim. 2. d. 1● those which abyde looking & farryng for the crown , & those which abyde looking for the fire . Moreouer Sainct Iohn Chusostome speaketh more plainely , confirming that Chrisosleme de L. 12. t. con. 2. which I haue said , in such words : Prepare and make reaby thy works for the end , and prepare thy self to the way , and if thou haste taken any thing by violence from anye man , restore it againe : and make restitution , and say with Luc. 19. b. 8 Zachens : if I haue taken from any man by forged cauilation , I restore him foure fould . If thou art angry with any man , agree with him , before that thou do come vnto iudgement : dispatche here al things , that without let thou mayst sée that Iudictall seate . All the while that wee are here in this world we haue goodly hopes , but assone as we shal be gone from thence , it lyeth no more in oure power to doe penaunce , nor to deface and put out our sinnes . For after the Hom. 22 and popu . In Mat. 11 Hom. 37. In Heb. c. 1. & 2. Hom. 4. end of our life , there is no more occasion of merites , no more then there is vnto those the play at prises & games , to obtaine crownes and rewardes after that the combat , play and prises are finished and ended . For he which in this present life hath not washed away his sinnes , afterwards he shal finde no consolation . For in hell ( as it is written ) who shall confesse thee ? That is to say , who shall prayse Psa. 6. b. 6 thee in the graue ? And by good reason . For this is the time of the Theators , of Combals , Playes , and Prises : But the shal be the time of the Crownes , rewards and salaryes . Also let vs not thinke when we shall be come thyther , that we shall haue mercy , which do nothing at all , wherefore we ought to haue pardon : No though Abraham , Noe , Iob , and Daniell did pray for vs . Whilest then wee haue time , let vs prepare for our selues great trust and assurance towards God . And Sainct Hierome saith no lesse , confessing that Hierome . 12. q. 2. Inpresenti . Ambrosius . lib. de bon. mor. ca. 2. in the other world . And Sainct Ambrose , is of the same opinion , saying , Dauid required that his sinnes might bee pardoned him before that he departed out of this life . For he that shall not here in this life receaue forgiuenesse of his sinnes , shal not haue it in the other : he shall not haue it bicause he shall not haue the power to come and attaine to the eternal life . For the forgiuenes of sinnes , is the eternall life . Therfore saith hee : pardon mee O Lorde , that I may bee comforted before that I goo and shall be no more . And therefore I greatly meruatle of that papisticall doctrine , which is so repugnant both to the holy scriptures , and to the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Cyprian Churche . Sainct Cyprian hath written , in the Sermon that he made of the immortalitie , that the faithfull that do dye , haue taken white robes and garments , By which he The office sorthe dead Domine Iesu Chreste rex glorie libera ammas omnium sidelium desire torum & de penis inferni de profundo lacu Lsbera , eas de ore leonis , ne ab sor beat eas tar tarus , ne cadunt in obscuro sed signifer sanctus Michael rpresentet eas in lucem sanctam quam olim Abrahe promisisls & seminie ius Quia in inserno nulla est redemptio . Mantua . 3. calami Sed neque rex Ereli quemque tranare paludi Nee super is iterum reddt sinit The signification of hell . meaneth , that they are come to the beatitude and felicitie , and feacheth , that we muste wéepe no more for the dead . Sith that they are alreadie in the estate of felicitie . But me thinkes that the Priestes do not take them to bee assured of the eternall life whom they lodge in their Purgatory , but that from Purgatory , they may yet fall into hell : Or if they vnderstand it not so , wherefore do they sing in the offertory of the Masse for the dead ? Domine Iesu Christi &c. That is to say , O Lord Iesu Christ king of glory deliuer the soules of all the faithfull that dye from the paines of hell , and from the déepe lake . Deliuer them from the Lions mouth , least the in hell he deuour them , lest the they fal not in the obscure & dark places , but the S. Michel the standard bearer do represent them into the holy light , which of late thou diddest promise vnto Abraham and to his seed .

Thomas .

Mee thinkes that this is repugnant vnto that which Eusebius hath spoken before , and to that which the Priests do sing , saying : that in hell there is no raunsome nor delyuerance . And yet nenerthelesse , they pray here in that o●fertory , vnto Iesus Christ , that he wil deliuer them from the paines of hell . It must then needes follow , that eyther their prayer is vaiue , and that they demaunde a thing of God which they do very well knew to be impossible and contrary vnto his will , or that there is aswel deliuerance in hell as in Purgatory , and that they speake against themselues , or els that hell & Purgatory be al one thing .

Eusebius .

Thy disiunetiue is not good . For not , withstanding the commonly men take hell for the hell fire and the place of the dampned , yet neuerthelesse it may bee vnderstanded more amply for that low places and cositries , & the estate & condicion of the dead : after this manner , his signification shall comprehende & contrine also the Purgatory , as it doth in this place here .

Hillarius .

We muste then expounde it of the paines of hell , that is to say , of the paines of Purgatory .

Eusebius .

It cannot be vnderstanded otherwise .

Thomas .

And what shall we vnderstand by the deepe lake ?

Eusebius .

The very same .

Thomas ,

There is then also a lake in Purgatory ?

Hillarius .

You do well Thomas to be affrayd , Did you neuer here before , how the priests did pay the seriage for to haue the dead passe ouer ? It is then necessarye the they haue their fery man Charon , for to let passe & repasse the soules , aswel Charon the fery man . as the Panims & Poets had . Now if there be a Charon & a fery man , he cannot carry ouer soules without the there is seas lakes , or ryuers , for to caryhis boats , scyfes , ships , barkes & gallies .

Thomas .

But I am greatly abashed wherfore wée do call those that dye , in the french tongue trespasses . Thinke that it was bicause that they were already passed wherefore we do call the dead bodyes in french trespailes . from this life in the other . But as farre as I can perceiue it is rather bicause that they haue passed ouer those infernall lakes and reuers .

Hillarius .

I doe beléeue that the Christians and true faithfull people haue called their dead trespasses : signifiyng by that same that the death of the faithfull is no death , but only a passage for to enter into life , & those which are dead Iohn . 5. a. 24 in the faith of Iesus Christ , according to his promises , are passed from death to life . And therfore they are rightly called trespasses bicause the they are already passed ouer , & are come vnto the port of health , in which they rest in ioy and consolation with Iesus Christ their Lorde , hauing escaped all the daungers , & the great gculfes of the sea of this world , The Pope Pinto , Eacus , Minos , Rhadamantus and Neoptolemus . of sinne , death & hell . But sithence the the pope hath begun to reign in stéed of Iesus Christ , & the he hath take the office of Pluto the god of hel , & of Eacus , Minos , Rhadamantus , and Neoptolemus the infernal iudges , as a newe king , hée would chaunge the laws , estates , habitations & manners of huing of his subiects the be dead , aswel as of those that be aliue , The decrees & Canous of Lesus Christ . & endeuoreth himselfe with all his power & strength to abolish & put out the laws , ordinances , institutions , holy Canons & inuiolated decrées , which Iesus Christ hath giuen aswel to the liuing as to the dead by his prophets & apostles , passed , confirmed , ratefied & sealed by the arrest of the celestiall & beauenly court & by the great counsell & wisedome of god , of the holy trinitie of the father , the sonne & the holy ghost , of all the angels & archangels , Saincts & Sainctes , patriarkes , apostles , Euangelists , Martirs , Confessors & Mirgins , to the end that the faithful without any other , should haue place in heauen , in earth & in hell .

Theophilus .

He woulde The Emperors & Pope do abolish the statutes of their predecessours . do vnto Iesus Christ , as the Romaine Emperors , & the Popes haue done many times the one against the other , making frustrate , & voyd the which their predecessors haue made & ordeined . For in asmuch as they haue made Iesus Christ the first pope , & S. Peter the seconde , I thinke , the it seemeth good vnto them , the aswell they maye abrogate & make boide their ordinances , as they haue done those of other Popes their predecessors , changing most ofcen times the that the first haue ordeyned , & making frustrate their counsels & decrées , especially sithence the time of pope Stephen , who made boide al the which Formosus his predecessor had don . Iesus Christ the eternall Plipe , Plat. in vita Stepha . 6. & Formosus . 1. Stephan . 6. For mosus 1. Antibopes & Schismatickes But they do in that great wrong vnto Iesus Christ that sithence he is risen againe there are so many popes risen vp in his place . For they wil not suffer that one should choose another whilst they are aliue : or if that be done , they call him antipope the is chosen in spite of their bearde , and hold for scisinaticks aswel him as those that haue chosen him & which are Ioyned with him . They call him antipope who setteth himself against him when they estéeme to be the Christ & Antechrist . Rom. 6. a. 4 1. Cor. 15. b. 12 Ephe. 1. d. 28 & 2. b. 6 Coloss. t. c. 18. Mat. 28. d. 20 true pope , eue as we set antichrist against Christ . Sith them the Iesus Christ is rise from death he is immortal , & shall dye no more , but shal abiee & dwel eternally with his churche , of which he is the only head , according to the promise that hee hath made to his disciples , saying : beld I am with you vntill the ende of the world : For asmuch also as that great hea●●nly father , of whom proceedeth all fatherly loue that is called Ephe. 3. c. 15 Daniel . 7. 1 22 the olde aged , of whom Daniel speaketh off , he hath giuen vnto him al iudgment , power & seigniory both in heauen & in earth , & hath made him to be called by his prophet , the father of the world to come , Prince of peace , willing that in the name of Iesus should euery knee how , both of Esa. 9 b 6 Phll. 2. b. 10 Apo. ● . d. 13 things in heauen & things in earth and thinges vnder the earth , I am greatly abashed from whence this ouer boldnes & rashnes should proceed to create & those other popes then he , sith that he is alwayes aliue , & that he is the Lord of the quick and of the dead , and his kingdome hath nene ende .

Hillarius .

They cannot denie but that they are al Antipopes . That is to say contrary and enemies to the true Hope , & so consequently heritickes and schismatickes . For sith that Iesus Christ is the true Christ , & true Pope , that is All Popes Antipopes & Anticurists to say , the father of the Christian Church , it followeth that they are Antichrists & Antipapes of the churche of Iesus Christ , & true & lawful Popes of that of Antichrist . the which hath not onely of trepasse but also passed , repassed & trepassed , which neuer shall finde rest . For they must firste passe into Purgatory , & after repasse , for to put them out , & againe to passe all ouer for to put them in the Popes The Papisticall ●irges paradise . But as slowly as they can , when they can gette no more money . Wherefore it must needes be that there are lakes & ryuers , at the least , insomuch as the Poets doe declare The lakes and internall finds . it , sith that we must so much passe and repasse .

Thomas .

But how can the fire & water agrée together if Fire . & water . there are so many riuers & deepe waters , it seemeth to me that it is great folly , to cast the holy water vpon the graues , & vpon the dead , sith that they haue such slore below with them . If Holy water vnprofitable . I were below in Durgatory within that fire . which is so hot & burning , I would finde the meanes , if it were possible , to get me neere vnto those riuers , & would plunge my selfe therein , as a Ducke and a Coote .

Hillarius .

I would not that the Priests should sing & pray for mee , that I might be deliuered from the deepe lake , for I had rather to be a fish , and to dwell therein alwaies .

Thomas .

Thou cause be no better at thine ease . For thou shalt be alwayes in the fresh water , and maist drinck when thou wilt .

Hillarius .

That should be a goodly pastime for the drunckardes , if those slouds were of wine , & for those that dwell vpon the mountaines , if it were of milke , as in the time of Saturne , and in the time of the golden Age , if the Fluds of wyne & of milke . Ouid. Meta. 1 Flumina Iam lactis , Iam flumina nectaris ibant . The infernall fluddes their names & interpretations . Lethe , Acheron , Styx , Cocytus , Phlogeton . witnesse of the Poets be true . But I rather feare that those are not alwaies that , as the Poets haue sayd , and that one cannot alwaies attribute vnto them their auncient names : Although that the Pope raigneth there in stéede of Pluto . For the one is called , Lethe , that is to say , obliuion : An other Acheron , that is to say , without Ioy : An other Stix , that is to say , sadnesse : An other Cocytus , that is to say , mourning and lamentation : An other Phlegeton , that is to saye , heate . Now what other thing can there be in the Popes Purgatory , if it be such as they haue described vnto vs . I finde it in nothing to differ from the Poeticall hels . Wherfore they doe no great wrong , if they do sing : Deliuer them from the déepe lake , and from the Lyons mouth . Syth that that roaring Lyon is there , it must of force bée that it is hell . But they fayle in this that they haue not directed their prayer vnto the Pope , and hys , which haue caste the soules therein and holde them there , and not vnto Iesus Christ , who handeleth not so cruelly those of his faythfull seruauntes . But truely those which wyll not drincke of the fountaine of life of our Sauiour Ies●s , and of hys goodlye Psa. 12. a. 3 & 55. ● . 1. Iere. 2. c. 13. swéete riuers , which are more sweeter then either wine or milke , are well worthy to drincke of those bile and stincking papisticall Cesterns , and to be plunged and drowned in those pits and infernall lakes , and to lyue in the yron Age .

Eusebius .

Thou blamest the Sophisters , but I neuer The significatios the deepe lake . sawe a greater Sophister nor greater slaunderer . When the Priests doe pray that Iesus Christe woulde delyuer the soules from the déepe lake , is it not easie to be vnderstanded , that they speake not of a lake full of water , but that woorde is taken by translation and comparison , for to declare and shew foorth the depth of the miseries in which sinne leadeth the poore sinners ?

Theophilus .

But hath not Iesus Christ thorow the bloud of his testament , deliuered all the true Christians from those broken pits that wyll holde The lake without water . Zach. 9. c. 11 no water , euen as he hath brought the children of Israell from the bottome of their captiuitie and misery , accordinge to the prophesie of Zachary ? dost thou thincke that Zachary hath lyed ?

Hillarius .

Thou doest call me sophister and slaunderer , but if thou finde that that I do say so straunge , I would gladly knowe of thée out of what floud came the soule , which the fishermen of the Byshop Tibaud dyd take in a net in steede of a fish ?

Thomas .

Truely I now perceiue A soule taken in a net that thou doest mocke men too plainely .

Hillarius .

If I mocke , thou must then impute the fault to that great Doctour Barleta , of the order of the preaching Fryers , who hath written that goodly example , in his Sermon Barleta feri . 4 hebd . 4. quadr . de pe. purg . that he made of the paines of Purgatorye , and sayde moreouer that the fisher men dyd bring that net vnto the Byshop , vnto whom the soule cryed : Praye for me in thy masses , to whom the Byshop demaunded , what art thou ? The Bishop Tibaud . the soule aunswered : I am a soule that haue accomplished héere my penaunce . And as soone as he had caused a trentall of Masses to be song for it , it was deliuered from hir paines . Now what doest thou thincke , how was that soule brought thether ? I can coniecture none otherwise but that it did swim bpon the top of the water , as the Troutes , Salmons and Eles , & many othe● fishes doo , which go against the swéet water , and do depart from the sea and lakes , for to enter into the riuers . For I doubt not , but that there is stinckinge mudde , myre and durte in those papisticall lakes , and that the water is verye muche corrupted , salt and bytter , The papisticall lakes and ●ondes . The ●luds of Paradise Esa. 11. a. 3 Gene● . 2. b. 10 wherefore I am not much estonished , if that the soules haue such great desire to depart out of those stincking Cesterns , for to refresh themselues and to drawe of the water , in the sountaines of our sauiour Iesus Christ , and in those plesaunt riuers and flouds of that delicious and pleasaunt garden , wherein the golden age continueth for euer , and of that goodly Paradyse , the whiche God hathe planted , The tree of life and in the myddest of which hée hath sette the trée of life , for to make vs pertakers of his immortalitie . And as for mée , whatsoeuer Sophister thou call mée , yet I coulde not gyue better solucion to my question : nor I knowe not whether in Sorbonne , one myght finde a more fitter . But leaste thou shouldest not thincke that I doe speake wythout authoritie , I wyll alledge vnto thée the wytnesse Cic●ro . Tusc. q. li. 1 of the Poets , and the same of Cicero , who alledgeth that he fauoureth greatly the history of Barleta , and the exposition that I haue made vppon the same . Marke then the A soule drawen from hell . horrible and sharpe verses , that those soules which departed from hell did speake , as some man hath translated it into our tongue .

From the infernall lake I came , and grisly goulfe of hell , Where soules in fire & brimstone plungd , in endlesse tromēts dwell . Thus hauing passed Acheron that foule and stincking sloud , And eke escaped Gerberus the dog that is so woode , Vpon the sharpe rockes creepe I must , and doe by penaunce so , ( Till time I haue sulfilde the same ) in pangs of paine and wo .

Thou doest heare the language that the same soule did speake , although that Cicero did mocke of those fictions and of such a heape of fooles , who demaunded a forme & shape of the soules , and did thincke that they did retourne . Upon which he saith : From thence by his accompt the lake of Auernus Aueruus is not farre off , from whence some do saye that the soules doe come in a blacke shadow , after that the gate of Acheron is opened : and that from thence came foorth the Images and figures of the dead men , with false bloude . Notwythstandinge the same they woulde that those Images and visions shoulde speake : the which they cannot doe , without a tongue , mouth and throate , or wythout strength & figure of lyuer & ribs . And although they sée nothing by apprehension of understanding they would that those figures of the dead , should be represented before their eies . Although y● Cicero rebuked the opinion of those , yet neuerthelesse they do not accord very euil with the theology of your Doctours . Wherefore thou oughtest to coutent thy selfe with my solution : or if thou wilt haue a better , propound the question in Sorbonne , and if the Doctors cannot absolue it , let them condemne the bookes of Barleta , and of other lyke dreamers , The forbidding of bookes . & forbid the Moonkes to reade their Sermons full of blasphemy , rather then the holy Scriptures , and the bookes that they iudge to be full of heresies , onely bycause that they doo contayne truth , and which condemne their abuse .

Theophilus .

They will not doe so . For the other do cause The fluds of paradise . Pyson . Genes. 2. b 10 the water to come better to their mil. Moses witnesseth that Pyson , the one of the foure flouds of the terrestryall Paradise , bringeth golde with his waues : But those will haue nothing to doe with the flouds of Paradise , nor of the golde that they bringe , which is a great deale more precious then Fluds bringeth golde . that which they drawe from their internal flouds , the which they preferre before those , bicause of the greate riches and treasures that they drawe there out .

Hillarius .

There is no Prince vpon the earth , whiche getteth or draweth so much out of the flouds nor mines , as Tagus . Pactolus . Ganges . Hebrus . Padus & Eridanus Orcus . they haue . That is none of the golde which Tagus the floud of Portingale bringeth with his sandes : Or Pactolus of Lydia : Or Ganges of India : Or Hebrus of Thracia : Or Padus of Italy : Or Orcus , whiche is in the country of Taurine in Piedmont . All the golde that those flouds haue is nothing in comparison of that that they catch in their internall floudes : which cause the whéeles of their Mill to turne about very well . In very déede they haue an Orcus which is more fertile in golde then that of Piedmont . And the name Eurotos & Peneus . 4. ca. 8 Plin. li. 4 ca. 8 P●neus accipii amnem Eurotō nec recipit , sed olei mod● super natatem breui spaicio portatum agréeth with it very well . For Orcus signifieth hell , from whence those flouds arise , whiche cannot ioyne themselues with those flouds of the terrestryall Paradise , no more then Eurotos with Peneus , that goodly floude of Thessaly , which cannot abide nor suffer that the execrable waters of that stincking floud , engendred wyth paines and torments , should be mingled wyth his siluer flouds : But they must swimme aboue him , as Oyle , and after the he hath carryed him a little , he driueth him farre from him .

Theophilus .

Those héere would as well mingle the waters abdicat penales aquas , dirisque genitas argenteis suis miscere recusans . of their stincking Cesterns , with the water of life : But it agréeth not together . For Iesus Christe cannot abide nor suffer that , but casteth it farre from him . Wherfore I doubt verye much , that as he hath already kindled his fire , which hath burned Purgatory , that he will also repulse those riuers and lakes , and that he will cause them that they shall The floude of Christ not swell ouer as a flud doth his waters , for to quench and put out that little fire which shall be there left .

Hillarius .

they ought a great deale more to feare that flud , then the drowning and ouerflowing of Tiber , whiche The ouerflowing of Tyber . was like to haue drowned Rome . For when it runneth ouer , it will carry away both the castle of Sainct Ange , the Pope and his Popedome and all the Romish Babilon . Wherefore it is no meruaile though they feare those euangelicall The floud Nylus and the fertility of Aegipt Strab. Geor. li. vlti . Solin . ca. 45. Seneca li. 4. natu . quae . Luc. Phar. 10 Plin. in panegy ad Traia . Plin. natu . hist li. 5. ca. 9 Nilometres . Diodo . sicu . li. 1 Tibul. li. 1. ad Nilum . Te propter nul los tellus tua postulat imbres Arida nec pluuio supplicat herba loui . Claudia . in con su . Theo. Lene sluit . Nilus , sed cunctis amnsbus extat vtilior . waters , and endeuour themselues to keepe their filthy internall puddles , and infectious and stincking welles . For that is all the force and riches of their kingdome . The flud Nilus which ouerfloweth the land of Aegypt , & which maketh their fields fruitful and fat , and bringeth vnto them great aboundance and increase of wheate and other corne by the mudde , filth , fat ground , dunge and fatnesse that it bringeth with it , is not so fertile nor profitable vnto the Aegyptians , which inhabit in the land of Aegypt , as vnto vs new Aegyptians . Wherefore if the Aegyptians take such paine about their flud Nilus , and haue their Nilometres , that is to say , the mesurers of the flud Nilus , which haue the charge to measure it , for to know whether it encrease much or little , we must not be estonished , if those heere doe so trauayle after theirs .

Thomas .

Wherefore doe they that ?

Hillarius .

Bicause that if that Nilus do not encrease but twelue cubytes , then they haue the famine in Aegypt : bycause that if all their groundes are not watred and moysted through the ouerflowinge of the same , those whiche are not couered are as the sande , and wyll brynge foorth no fruite . For it rayneth not in Summer , and all their felicitie and riches , dependeth vpon Nilus . As Moses declared Deutat . bae vnto the Israelites , comparinge Aegypt vnto the lande of Canaan . If the floud Nilus arise vppe xiif . cubites , yet there shall be tamishment in Aegypt . If it encrease xiiif . cubites , it bringeth ioye : if xv . it bringeth assurednesse : if it encrease xvf. cubites , it bringeth delightes and pleasures . For they haue such store and aboundaunce of corue and other goodes , that all is plentifull . On the contrarye , if it Palaemon ex Diony. Non alius tantum fluutorum ditat arenas . Atque trahens limum complec titur vbere campos . encrease aboue measure , they cannot sowe , bicause that the water tarryeth so longe that the earth wyll not bée drye to bée tylled : But when it encreaseth by measure , they make greate chéere , takynge care for nothinge , and therefore they haue those Nilometres whiche measure the hyght and depth of those waters , and if they knowe that it aryseth not hygh ynoughe , for to water all the earthe , they make it to be knowen through out all the Townes and Cyties , afterwardes euery one maketh dykes and The floud Nilus of the Pope . trenches for to make it the easier to runne all abrode . If they knowe to the contrary , that it wyll swell and ryse vp to hye , and that throughe hys greate aboundaunce of hys waters it wyll let and hynder to sowe and tyll the earth , they make greate rampers and walles rounde aboute it for to kéepe it in , and to cause it to runne more slowelye . Nowe therefore doubte not , but that our Aegyptians are as wyse in their generations , and that they knowe as well that practise , for to prouide and foresee to theire Niles and flouddes , whiche cause the water to come to theire Milles , from which all their fertilities and ryches do procéede , and wyth which they fishe and catche the goulde , of which yet neuerthelesse they can neuer be satisfied . For Charibdis . they are as a goulfe of the sea , in which these ryuers dooe emptie themselues , & yet they can neuer fill the sea . These The dykes of the fortresses of the Papists . are the dikes of their castles & Lordships wherin doth consist all their fortresse , of which none can approch nigh vnto them , wythout béeing fore afraide & in great daunger of killing & drowning . For those the wyll approch as enemyes , for to assalt them , shal finde those flouds altogether ●ull of sulfure & fire , & more whotter & burning then the internal floud Phlegetō . Those which do passe ouer them , for to yeelde themselues vnto them , shal finde themselues more miserable & vnhappy . For first of al they must passe the floud Lethe , which signifieth To passe the floude Lethe . To forget God . obliuion : bicause that it is necessarye , that those which giue themselues vnto them for to drinike of the stincking water of their doctrin & traditions , forget God & his word , & Esa 29. d. 13. Mat. 15. a. 8 serue him in vayn . Wherfore from thece they must come vnto Acheron , which causeth all those that passe ouer it to lose all their ioye and myrth . For sith that the kingdome of God is A cl. cron righteousnesse , peace , and ioye in the holy Ghost , what peace The kingdome of God . Rom. 14 c. 17. & ioye can those haue who haue forgotten and forsaken God , the fountaine of the water of life , & the sea of all goodnesse , for to come & drincke of those muddye and stincking Iere. 2. c. 13. welles that wyll holde no water ? Sith that then in that Acheron , one shal lose all ioy & mirth , they must of necessitie come vnto the other flouddes , to wyt , Stix , which signifteth Styx Cocytus Phlegeton Ihon. 14. d. 16 The holy ghost is called the comforter . Claudiut . Foelix qui phaitas prescindit vomere terras . Nubila non spe rat tenebris condentia coelum Nec grauiter slantes pluuiali frigore Coros . Inuocat , aut arcum varlota luce rubentem Aegyptus siue aube ferax inbresque serenos . Sola tenet so cu ra poli , non indiga venti . sorrowfulnesse , & to Cocytus which signifieth mourning : and vnto Phlegeton which signifieth heate and burning . For sith that the holy Ghost is called the comforter : ioye nor consolation cannot bée but there where hée is , and where he hath shed abroade the waters and droppes of his grace . And therefore who can haue his conscience which is depriued from that comforter . but sorrowfull & ful of perpetual mourning ? What greater heat & burning can ther be in hel , then is in the consciences of those which haue abandoned Christ , for to serue Antechrist , & for to follow his doctrine & traditions ? For that is a very hell vnto the conscyence : and it is not possible that those which are addicted and giuen vnto his seruice , can euer be refeshed & filled . For that Aegypt is not watred nor sprinkled with the dewes & flouds of heauen , no more then the other Aegypt with the water from heauen in sommer : & hath nothing in it but these filthinesse & puddels , the which it doth estéeme more then the goodly faire & cleere water : it preferreth it selfe vnto the lande of Canaan , the whiche yet neuerthelesse Moses estéemed more then that of Aegypt : sayinge vnto the Israelites : The lande whether thou goest to possesse it , is not as the Gaudet aquis quas ipsae vehit Niloque redundat . lande of Aegypt whence thou camest out , where thou sowedst thy seede : And wateredst it with thy féete as a garden of hearbes : But the lande whether ye goe ouer to possesse , it is a lande of hyls and valleys , and drincketh water of the raine of heauen . They had rather wyth great trauaile torment themselues after and aboute those marysses and lowe groundes , then to attend and receyue the blessing from heauen . And therefore they can neuer finde rest nor consolation in their consciences , but abide alwayes in doubt , perpleritie , trouble and anguish .

Theophilus .

That is the very same that they desire . For Antechriste hath his fishers , altogether differinge and contrary vnto those of Iesus Christ , who desire not but troubled waters , bicause that then their fishing is a great deale Deu. 11. b. 10 To fish in the troubled water The fishers of Iesus Christ & of Antechrist . Mat. 4. d. 19. Luc. 5. c. 10. better . Iesus Christ said vnto his Apostles , and Disciples : I will make you fishers of men : Bicause that hée woulde sende them , for to drawe men , by the nets and cordes of the preaching of the Gospel , out and from the sea of this world , and from the goulfes of sinne , death and hell , for to leade them vnto the port of health & safetie , and vnto Iesus Christ their Sauiour . The other fisher men take fishes for to kill and eat them . But these are sent for to retire & pluck back men from death vnto life , and from the perils and daungers of the sea and goulfes of hell , for to lead , present and bring them all aliue vnto Iesus Christ . On the contrarye , Antechrist Fishers of gold and siluer . Sub anulo pisca torto . hath his Apostles and fishers , not of men , but of golde and of siluer : or if they do catch men , that is after the manner and sorte as the fishers catch the fishes for to kill , eate & sell them .

Hillarius .

If they be not fishers of men , they are fishers of soules . Wherfore I would counsaile them , sith Fishers of soules . that they know to take them in their nets as fishes , that in sléede of their masses , vigilles and suffrages , they woulde buy fishe lepes , nettes and hookes for to catche and fish for soules .

Theophilus .

They haue no néede of thy counsaile . For they haue bene prouided of such instrumentes longe agone , that if it be possible there shal not one soule escape , but that it shal be intrapped and caught in their nettes , which they haue layd forth on euery side . What other thing are all The nets of the Priestes . their prayers for the dead , their Idoles and ceremonies , but bytings , Hookes , Nettes and engyns , for to catche and take men , as the Fisshers take the Fisshes ? or the Spiders the little Flyes with their copwebbes ?

Hillarius .

Therfore it is very necessarie for them to haue a great many of Nilomitres & seruants , for to take good héede to their riuers , sith the there are so many Fishers , & whiche haue so many nets & engyns . For it is to be feared greatly , the if their Nile and their bloudy waters of Aegypt should ouerflowe , arise The waters of Aegypt . and swell to much , that it woulde quenche and put out the fire , that they kéepe yet in their Purgatory , aswell as the ouer great fire that they made there , hath burned the walles and chambers that were there , and least the same should hinder and let their sowings and reapings in haruest . On the contrary , if those fluddes decrease and dry vp , it is greatly to be feared , but that they will bringe dearth and famine , for many causes and reasons . For merchants nor merchandise cannot come no more vnto them . Afterwardes it is to be feared , least the Israelites whome they To go out of Aegypt Exo. 14. c. 21 The taking of Babilon . Cirus & Darius hold in captiuitie in Aegypt , shall escape them , if God dryeth vp the red Sea , for to giue issue and passage vnto his people : or least their Babilon should be taken , as Cirus and Darius tooke the of the Chaldeans , after that they had founde the meanes to turne the riuer Euphrates , which entred into Euphrates . Pli. li. 3 ca. 14. Solin . ca. 50. Xenoph. in Cir. hist. li. 1. in cho the same , for to giue free passage vnto their souldiers & hoste of men : the which they placed within Babilon , there where the course of the water was , and did take it in the night , whilest that the king Balthazer with his Princes , curtisans and concubines did banquet & make good chere , Daniel . 5. s. 23 and celebrated the feast of his gods .

Theophilus .

They may well repayre theyr dykes , and Ioseph . lib. 10 ca. 13 forteāe themselues asmuch as they can : But yet neuerthelesse they shall take them neuer the sooner . For it is necessary that the prophecie which Esay prophecyed against the Aegyptians be accomplyshed vppon them , and vppon all The Prophecie against the Aegyptians . their Fishers , and vppon those which lyue about their riuers , and which make the instruments of Idolatry & supersticion .

Hillarius .

What is that Prophecie ?

Theophilus .

Giue eare , and you shall see whether it agréeth not well to our matter . The water of the Sea ( sayth hée ) shall bée drawne out , Nilus shall sinke away , and be dronken vp .

The riuers also shall be drawen out , and the wells shal decreace Esa. 19 2. 5. and dry away . Réede and Rush shall fayle , the grasse by the waters side or vppon the riuers banke , yea , The fisshers forsaken . and whatsoeuer is sowen by the waters , shall be wythered , destroyed and brought to nought . The fisshers shall mourne , all such as cast angels in the water shall complayn and they that spred their nettes in the water shal be faynt hearted . Such as labour vpon Flare and Silke , shal come to pouertie , and they also that weaue fine workes . And all those which doe make pondes and stewes for the lyuing soules shall be sorrowfull for their nettes .

Hillarius .

It is not possible , to finde out a prophecie which better agreeth with them . For this heere maketh mention of waters , of Fisshers of Flare workers , of makers of nettes , of makers of pondes and stewes , in which they doe keepe and holde fast the lyuing soules , as the fisshers doe keepe their fishes in their stewes and fish pents . It maketh also mention of their instruments & of the workemen that make them , the they feare nothing lesse least that the preaching of the Gospell should drye vp those riuers , as Demetrius & those of his sect greatly feared , the thorow Demetrius . Act. 19 s. 14 Diana the goddesse of the Ephesians . the preaching of Paul , the honour of Diana the great goddesse of the Ephesians should be diminished , & their gayne with hir . Therefore they are not to be blamed although they loke to it so diligently . It in more then time that the vertue of God doth shew foorth it self , for to deliuer his poore people , from the handes of so many fishers which plunge & drown so many poore soules through their lakes & puddles . Those are terimen & marrincrs which do drowne all those Daungerous Mart●ers which enter into their boates & ships . For they haue not Iesus Christe with them , which causeth the windes & tempests Mat. 8. c. 2 ● Mar. 14. d. 32 Iohn . 3. b. 19 to be calme & to cease , & which causeth alwaies a safe landing and port .

Theophilus .

And therefore it shoulde be more reasonable that we should cry after him as the Apostles Prayer for the lyuing . did , saying : Lord saue vs : & that we should make our prayer vnto God , that he would deliuer vs from that déepe take , & al those that be aliue , then to sing for the dead . For if Dauid & the other seruauntes of God did complaine themselues to haue bene drowned in the lakes of tribulation and mysery , The water of tribulation . Psa 2● . c. 21 Psa● . 6. e. 23 Esa. 8. h 8 Sennacharib . & that the waters haue enuironed & couered them ouer the head , wée haue no lesse occasson to complayne . Esay desiring to signifie the misery & tribulation which should come vnto Hierusalem and to all the lande of Iuda by the army of Sennacherib , sayth that she shall be enuironed wyth waters vp to the throate : And vseth such comparison for to let them to vnderstand that the same army shal destroy and couer all the land , euen as Euphrates did couer and destroy Euphrates . Strab. li. 16 Proc. li. 1. Pers. bel . Esa. 36. cap. 4. Reg. 18. and 19. cap. that lande of Assyria , when it ouerflowed : making comparison by the souldiers & host vnto the riuer , bicause that both the one and the other doe passe through one lande . But Hierusalem was neuer so afflicted nor oppressed by the vyolent waues of the armye of the Assyrians , as the poore Church is troden downe and oppressed by that great Romish Sennacherib and his army , whiche is innumerable The Romish Sennacherib . throughout all the whole worlde , as the sande of the sea . But we haue spoken inough of the Lake : It resteth now to absolue the doubte which I haue alreadye begun . Forasmuch ( friende Eusebius ) as you say , that that hell and déepe lake , of which mencion is made of it in the affertory for the dead , is taken for purgatory , what doth y● signifie which is spoken off afterwards : Deliuer them from the lyons mouth , least that hell do not deuour them : I beleeue the they vnderstand by the Lyon none other but the Dyuel , who as S. Peter The deuouring Lyon. 1. Pet. 5. b. e witnesseth is our enemy , & walketh about séeking whom he may deuour . But sith the the soule is separated from the body , how can it be deliuered from the mouth of the roring & denouring lyon , if the soule be of a reprobate , which dieth out of y● saith of Christ , who shal deliuer it from his throte , when God hath giuen it him ? And if it be of a faithfull man , Iesus Christe who is the strong and inuincible Lion , of the tribe of Iuda The Lyon of the tribe of Iuda , Apoc. 5. b. 5 who hath had the victory ouer that Lion which is aduersary and enemy vnto God , hath he not already deliuered it ? hath not he killed and prohibited the mouth of that Sampson and Dauid . Iudg. 14. a. 5. 1. Sam. 17 c. 35 hungry Lion , as a true Sampson and Dauid , in such sorte that he hath no more teeth nor fanges , for to deuoure the childen of God whom the Lord Iesus holdeth , as the Lyon his pray , to whome none dareth to come nigh , as Esay Esa. 31. b. 4 hath written , that the Lord kéepeth Hierusalem and his elect people . Also I thinke it not much vnméete if we make such prayer for those that be a liue , the which Iesus Christ hath taught vs to pray and say : And lead vs not into temptation , Mat. 6. b. 13 Luc. 11. a. 2 but deliuer vs from euill . And hee him selfe hath made the prayer vnto God his Father , for his discyples , as Iohn . 17 b. 9 witnesseth Sainct Iohn . He saith not , I pray thee that thou wouldest deliuer them from euill after this life : nor saith , I pray not , that thou wouldest take them out of the world ? 1. Pet. 5. b. 8 but that thou wouldest kéepe them from all euill . Also S. Peter doeth not exhort vs to abstaine from meates , to bée sober , watche and pray , and to arme vs with faith againste that roaring Lion , for those that be dead , but for our selues Repugnaunce of doctrine whilest that we be a liue , to the ende we may auoyd his mouth , for to come vnto that holy light which he hath promised vnto Abraham and vnto his seede . For according to your doctrine , sith that the soule is seperated from the body , if man hath not had here remission of his sinnes before his death , he cannot haue it after . And if he haue it in this life , he goeth either into Paradise or into Purgatory . If he be in Paradise , it is no more to bee feared that hell can swallow him vp . If he bée in Purgatory , although that according to your opinion , he be in paynes , yet neuerthelesse you confesse that he is past the danger of damnation , and that he is sure of his saluation . Wherefore I vnderstand not , howe that prayer can agrée with the worde of God , and the doctrine of the auncient doctors , & your owne For you speake against your selfe . If that prayer doth profit The Papisticall doctrine is vncertaine . the soules of the dead in the other life , it must then bée , that ther is yet great hope , either to merit or not to merit , and a place to do good or euill , as in this mortal life , and to be damned or saued .

Eusebius .

There is great difference . For in this life man may merit or not merit of him selfe : But after he is dead he can do no more for him selfe , but others may do it for him ? And the merites of those that bee alyue doe serue him to saluation .

Theophilus .

And so by that meanes , Iesus Christe shal be a Sauiour neither of the lyuing nor of the dead : & the merite of his death and passion , shall saue neither the one nor the other , but the lyuing shall saue themselues , during their life ? and after their death , others that shal be then alyue , shal saue them especially the Priestes and Moonks , By that meanes , we haue many sauiours , and men should neuer be certaine nor sure of their saluation , neither before their death nor afterwards , whiche is a thing altogether contrarie to the doctrine of the scriptures .

Eusebius .

And if I would maintaine , that those which are in hell , can be somewhat deliuered from the pains theroff , eyther by the prayers and good déedes of the liuing , or Deleyueraunce from hell bicause of the good deedes that they themselues haue done during their life , that should be a strange thing vnto thée . What wouldest thou aunswere to that ? Haue wee not the witnes of a great many histories and good doctours , worthy to be beleeued , which certefie vs , how that Sainct Gregory deliuered Traianus the Emperour from the paines Traianus delyuered from hell of hell , who notwithstanding did put to death many of the Christians , and namely Sainct Ignacius the discyple of S. Iohn Saint Ignatius lo. Maio. 4. sent dist. 45. quae . Saint Machayr Saint Brandun . Alrus . in fine sui 4. Iudas out of hell . the Euangelist . It is in like manner written in the life of the fathers , that Sainct Machaire deliuered a priest being a Panim , who affirmed vnto him that he was damned . And in the life of sainct Brandon we read that hee did sée Iudas , which walked by the meadowes , of whom he asked the cause , wherefore he was not in hell : who aunswered him bicause of the good deedes that he did in his life time , he had therefore some solace and comfort .

Theophilus

If Thou canst no better confirme my sentence , nor better proue that your doctrine is altogether vncerteine , variable , inconstant and gamesayinge it selfe . For hast thou not alreadie confessed vnto me , that the priestes do not praye for the dampned , bicause that there is no deliuerance from hell , and from the fire of hell ? Consider I pray thée , how that agreeth with those goodly fables , & with that which thou meanest now to speake off . Diuers opinions of the deliuerance of Traianus Tho. in 4. dist. 1. 3. Argu. 2 10. Maio. 4. sent dist. 45. qua . 1. Barl. ser. 3. Hab. 4. sermo de pen. inser .

Eusebius .

If you had read diligently the bookes of the good auncient doctors , and especially of Saint Thomas , you might easely make all these places agrée . For they do alledge foure opinions & reasons for to satisfie suche doubts . The first is , that Traianus was raysed thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory , and that he dath done penance in this life , thorowe the which he meryted grace and pardon of his sinnes . Wherefore he is dead in the grace of God , and hath bene saued , and this is the best allowed opinion of the doctors . The second is , that the soule of Traianus was not simplye deliuered from the paine and fault thereof , but that his paine was suspended and delayed , vntill the daye of iudgement , and afterwardes shal be saued . The thyrd opinion is that Gregory deliuered him , not from the place of hell , but from the paine . The fourth , which is also best allowed among all the other , that the soule of Traianus was deliuered from the paines of hell , and hath obtayned mercie thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory : the which thing was done , not after the common law , but after the disposition and dispensation of the wisdome and prouidence of God , who did foresee that Sainct Gregory should pray for him . Wherefore it hath not dampned it by or through diffinitiue sentence , but by a sentence suspenciue : The which thing hath bene a perticuler priuiledge . For Sainct Hierome saith , that the priuiledges are but for a Priuiledges . fewe people , and not for all . For the priuiledges of a fewe are not lawes common to all : And the things which go out of square from the common lawe , ought not to bee drawen into a consequence .

Hillarius .

I thinke that that is the priuiledge whiche Extra derog . sur . li. 6 is written in the Aeneados of Virgill , the which Cyble recited , speaking to Aeneas after this manner .

Then prophet Cyble said , O borne of bloud of heauenly kind , Thou Troyan Duke , the way that leads to hell is light to finde . Virg. Aenci. 6. Both nights and dayes , the doore of Limbo blacke doth open gape , But backward vp to climbe , and free to Skies est soones to scape . Their woorkes , their labour is few men whom equall loue did loue , Our vertue pearcing all , did to the starres aduaunce aboue .

Beholde the priuiledge of that good doctor , whiche peraduenture Iupiter , in whom Traianus did beléeue , granted vnto him .

Theophilus .

I do greatly meruayle , both of Thomas of Aquin , and of other questionarie doctors , whiche haue taken suche great paines for to couler and set foorth a fable . It must be that they haue had very much leasure , and that they were not muche occupied about other better affaires . They would sooner haue giuen a more true and certeine solution , if they had by and by answered , that they receiued not such fables : as some of their owne secte haue done , namely our maister Iohn Maioris the Scotte , the whiche I haue heretofore heard reade in the Colledge of Our master Iohn Maioris 4. sent. dist. 45 q. 1. Mountaigu . Hee reiecteth without making anye doubt , both the history of Sainct Machaire , and also that of S. Brandon . As touching that same of Traians , although that he alledge the common solutions of other doctors : yet neuerthelesse he first doth aunswer , that he knoweth not from whence that history had his first beginning : the which hath no certaine author : not withstanding that some doe attribute it vnto Iohn Damascenus . But how shoulde hee haue The Author of the history of Traianus Damascenus . Supple . chro . Bergons . li. 9. written it , sith that according to their owne witnesses and chronicles , he raigned long time before that saint Gregory lyued , and was dead before that Sainct Gregory was borne . For their chronicles do witnes , that Damascenus florished in the years of our Lord 440. And that he was very familier with the Emperour Theodosius . The which yet neuerthelesse I beléeue not : For by that account , he had lyued in the time of Sainct Ambrose , & neuerthelesse there is great difference betweene his bookes and these of Sainct Ambrose . For these of Sainct Ambrose are a great deale ●latin in vit. Celest 1 The time of Gregory . Bergo . li. 10 purer , & keepe a great deale better the puritie of that auncient church . But peraduenture they meane the young Theodoseus , which rayned after Honorius . Although that it be so , by their owne Chronicles , he was before the time of Gregory , about 152. yeares . For they do write that Gregory reigned in the yeare . 592.

Hillarius .

It must néeds be then , that either the Chronicles are false , or the witnes of those the do make Damascenus the author of that fable : Except peraduenture they will say that thorow the spirite of prophecie , he hath foreshewed that deliuerance , which Gregory ought to doe , touching the soule of Traianus .

Theophilus .

I knowe not what their prophecies are , but I neuer in all my lyfe did sée nor heare a thing wherin was lesse reason , assurance & incerteinly , then in that papisticall doctrine . For it consisteth but in mane opinions . But how do those fables agrée with that that they themselues Maio. 4. sent. dist. 45. q. 1. Berl . sermo . de pen. inse alledge of Sainct Augustine , who by their owne witnesses should say : If I did know that my Father were in hell , I would pray no more for him then for the diuell . Wherefore then haue S. Gregory and S. Machair prayed for the dampned ? And when the Priestes do pray vnto Ne absorbeat . eas Tartarus : ne cadant in obsura . Iesus Christ that he deliuer the soules , least that hel should deuoure them and that they should not fall into the darke and obscure places , in what place doe they vnderstande that the soules , for whom they make that request , ought The place of the Papisticall soules . The fall of the soules . to bee ? Sith that they make request that hell do not deuour them , they do then vnderstand and meane , that they are not in hell . But when they admoreouer , that they fall not into the darke and tenebrous places , they declare therby , that they ought to be in a place , from which they may not fall . Now , what is that place ? Is it Paradise ?

Eusebius .

No Paradise . verely . For those that are there , are alreadye all assured , that they shall neuer fall .

Theophilus .

No , except you are of that opinion that the soules may yet sinne in Paradise , as the Angelles and Adam , in the terrestriall Paradise , The fall of Angels & of man . Genes. 3. d. 24. 2. Pet. 2. a. 4. and that God did throwe them headlonge into hell , as the wicked Angelles : or that he dyd driue them out of Paradise , as Adam . But I beléeue thou art not of that opinion , friende Eusebius , for thou shouldest speake against all the good auncient Doctours , and the doctrine of the catholike Church , who doe preferre the worke of mannes redemption , to the same of his creation , in that that man hath bene so created of God , that he could sinne : But he hath after such sort redéemed it , that his elect can neuer perish nor sinne after they be in Paradise .

Eusebius .

It is very true .

Theophilus .

In what place then are those soules ? Thou wylt not saye that they are The Limbe . in the Limbe ? For according to your owne doctrine that same of the fathers is emptie , and as touching the other there goeth none thether but the little children that bée borne dead , for whom you doe no more praye , then for the dampned ? For you hope no more that they can come out from thence , 〈◊〉 more than tho dampned can come from hel . Wherefore there resteth no more but Purgatory . Nowe Purgatory if those soules are in Purgatorye , it muste bée that they haue some solace , and some lyght , as in Paradise : or otherwise , wherefore doe they praye , that those soules doe not fall into the obscure and darke places , if they be there already ? We will yet come againe vnto my first matter : and thou shalt be compelled to confesse that Paradise and Purgatory is all one thing : Or that you doe praye for the Saints and Saintes of Paradise , and for those which are at rest : or at the leastwise , that the soules which are already tormented in Purgatory , maye yet fall more déeper into hell & the darke places . And so by that reason , they are yet in daunger of dampnation , which is contrarye to your own doctrine .

Hillarius .

I am greatly estonished , friend Theophilus , what reason you can finde out of all reason : and what certeintie you search , besides the woord of God , which is onely certayne ? What foundation shall you finde in dreames ? For all that that they saye and do touching the dead , and all their doctrine , what other thing is it but dreames and lyinges ? which haue neither spiryte nor iudgement . Is not that a Theology altogether come of the Panims ? for of all those thinges haue they learned any one sillable of Iesus Christ ? Wherfore , I would , sith that they will not followe but their owne fantasie , the opinions of men , and of the Idolaters , and that they haue no regarde of the holy Scriptures , that they would not at the leastwise onely followe the euyll , but also the Three kinds of righteousnesse after Plato . good , that they haue taught . Plato that great and worthy Philosopher , hath set foorth thrée kindes of righteousnesse : The one towardes God : an other towardes men , and the thirde towards the dead . But these heere doo neither regard God nor men the be aliue , but haue conuerted all their care vpon the dead : not for the loue of them , but for the loue of themselues . Wherefore you muste not thincke , that they haue done this , for any zeale of righteousnesse for to render vnto them their duetie .

Theophilus .

I desire gladlye , that they and all the Christians , woulde acquite them in suche sorte that one may say that whiche the Scripture witnesseth of Ruth Ruth and Booz Ruth . 2. d. 20 and of Booz , and to gyue vnto them such prayse . For it wytnesseth , that they haue shewed mercy on the dead . Works of mercy towardes the dead .

But how ? was it in bestowing their goodes to bury them pompeously and making a greate many of Ceremonyes about their buryall ? They haue not learned to doe so by August . de ciui dei li. 1. ca. 12. 13. que . 2. c ani ma. 4. sent. dist. 45 c. de pompit . The profite of the buriall . the worde of God . For as Sainct Augustine sayth , also it is written in the decrées themselues , and in the Maister of the sentences . That all these things , to wit , the trauaile and labour that they bestowe vpon the funerals , the beautifying of their buryall , the pompe of the exequics and buryals , are more to comfort those that be aliue , then for to ayde the dead . If the precious and costly buryall profiteth Virgil. Facilis iactura sepulera . any thing the wicked , the vile and contemptible buryall shall hurt the good , or if he doe remayne vnburyed . That rich man of whom Iesus Christ speaketh off , had Comparison of the rich and of Lazarus . Luc. 16. c. 19 a great number of seruants , and courtisans clothed in purple , and sumptuous apparaile , who made for him moste excellent funerals , and buryed hym very costly to al mens sight : But the Ministering of the Angells made a greate Luca. li. 9. phras . aternus animam colligit in orbes . Non illue auro positi nec thure sepults perueniunt . deale more noble before the face of the Lorde that of the poore begger , whome they carried not to bée buryed : But carryed it into Abrahams bosome . Beholde the wordes of S. Augustine , who declareth vnto vs that we must not dispise the dead bodyes , and denie vnto them their buryall , for to testifie and witnesse the hope that wée haue of the resurrection , and that we should estéeme them no lesse then a ring or a badge which they haue left vnto vs , the which we would gladly hide and kepe for the loue of them . Also we ought not to thincke , that the faythfull can be in nothing of lesse strength , and to receiue any hurte before God , when they abide vnburyed , as it oftentimes chauused , as it is written : The dead bodyes of thy seruaunts Psa. 79. a. 2 Luca. li. 6 phars . Nihil agis hac tra , tales ne cadauera saluat . An rogus haud resert . Placido natura receptat . Cuncta suni & post capit omnia tellus . 〈◊〉 Quae genuit coelo igitur qui non habet vinam haue they giuen vnto the soules of the Aire to be deuoured : and the flesh of thy Saincts vnto the beastes of the land . Their bloude haue they shed lyke water on euerye side of Hierusalem , and there was no man to bury them . But yet neuerthelesse although that those things séeme to be hard & cruell yet notwithstandinge before the face of the Lorde , the death of his Saincts are precious The Panims themselues that haue had any vnderstanding were not muche carefull of the buryall : although that many superstitious Idolaters haue thought that it bringeth greate hurt , vnto those that haue not bene buryed . Now euen as the cost which is done about the dead bodyes for their buryalles profiteth lesse vnto them , then to anye other : As muche may we thinke & iudge of all the suffrages and cost that is done for them after their death and buriall , as Saincte Augustine doth playnelye declare , vppon thys place of the Plalmes . They call their landes after theyr owne August in psal 94. cone . 1. The benquettee for the dead . names . What is that ? They bringe ( saith hée , ) breads and wine vnto the graues and call it there the name of the dead . How much or how often dost thou thincke , that the name of that rich man hath bene called vppon afterwardes , when men were dronken in remembringe him , and one droppe of colde water dyd not discende to quench his hot tongue ? Men doe serue their bellye , and not the soules of their parentes and friendes . There commeth nothing vnto the soules of their deade , but that whiche they haue done wyth them being alyue . But if béeinge To do good during our lyfe . alyue , they haue done nothing wyth them , there commeth nothing vnto the dead . What reproch had the men which vnderstoode not what they should doe wyth their ryches , when they lyued , and which dyd thincke that they should bée blessed , if they had a memoriall in a Tombe of marble stone , as an eternall house : or if their parents & friends , vnto whom they shall leaue their goods , do call their lands after their names : But on the contrary , they ought to prepare for themselues an euerlasting house , in good workes . They ought to prepare for themselues the immortall life , Preparation for the departure out of this lyfe . to send the cost & charges before them , to follow their works to haue good regard of their néedy compaignion , to giue vnto him with whom they do walke , not to dispise Iesus Christ , to wit , his poore members , lying ful of botches & sores before the gate , who hath sayd : Inasmuch as you haue done Mat. 25. d. 40. it vnto one of the least of these my brethren , ye haue done it to me . Doth not héere Sainct Augustine cléerely say , that man must do his good déeds & almose , not vnto the sat Moonks & Priests , but to the poore members of Iesus , whilest the hée is héere in the way ? For after the he shal be out of this world , the good déds & almose the their parents & friends do bestow of their riches , profiteth them nothing at all . Wherto also Hierome in Esa of Forgiuenesse in this world agreeth the which S. Hierome speaketh off , saying : he which shal not obtein pardon of his sins , whilest the he liueth in this body , & shal so depart this life , he perisheth to god & leaueth to be : Although the be do make himself subject to paines . By those dronken bankets of whch Sainct Augustine speaketh off , wée may sufficiently vnderstand what was the custome of the Panims , which for an affection that they dyd beare vnto their parents & friends , & for a desire that they had , and also for a pompe and glorye , haue dedicated some Daies dedicated to the dead . Neeysia . Lunata . Euagismata . Ceterismata . Terchismata . Triacas . Parentationes . Nouendialia Demealia . Ratio diui off . de off . pro mort Rub. 7. of them , the thirde , the seauenth , ninth or tenth day , others the thirtie or fortie daye , for to make remembraunce for the dead , and to offer for them and make feastes and bankets . And haue not ordained those dayes wythout putting superstition to the number of them . And yet neuerthelesse , wee doe sée that the Christians altogether and wholly haue followed that manner of dooinge , as it appeareth bothe by their practise , and also by the booke of Durand : Although that Sainct Ambrose & others after him haue made Sermons & decrées , against that custome , the which notwithstandinge coulde not be so cleane taken away and abolished , but that that superstiton continueth almost euery where . For men do The seuenth dayes and the yere mindes . celebrate the seauenth day , tenth day , anwersaries or yeare mindes wyth great bankets and pleasures , as it appeareth by the canons and decrées , in which it is written after this sorte . No Prieste shall in any wise presume to be droncken Dist. 44. ex concilio Nauentēsi . Nullus . A lesson for the Priests . Quaffing for bidden . when hée commeth to the yeare minde , or to the trentenarie , or to the seauenth daye , or ternary of any office for the dead , or to anye contraire or brotherhoode : And that hée drincke nor quaffe when hée shall hée desyred for the loue and in the name of the Sainctes , or for the loue of the soule of him that is deade , nor that hée doo not also compell others to drinike : and that he doo not play the Gluttony . glutton and fyll himselfe to muche wyth good chéere at the request of an other : And that hée presume not to rehearse and recyte iestes and vnlawfull scoffinges , playes and vaine fables : nor by anye meanes to singe : And Maskes and Morrishes . that he suffer not that one shoulde make before hym vyle games and toyes , and that hée consente not that one shoulde bringe before hym false visages and maskes of Dyuelles . For that is dyabolicall , and forbiden of the holy Canons . We maye well vnderstand by that decrée of the counsayle , what honestie the Priestes and Christians haue kept in such bankets , sith that they must make lawes by the counsailes , and wherein they differed from the Panims . Wherefore if the good auncient fathers haue made anye memory of the deade , it was after that sorte and manner , as wée haue already spoken off , and for to abolysh by that meanes the superstitious fashions of the Panims , and to chaunge them to better manners , sith that they cannot pluck them away altogether . For if such religion was pleasinge vnto God , it was meruayle , that God dyd not as well ordayne , God hath not instituted feasts nor sacrafices for the dead . certeyne feastes , sacrifices and ceremonies , for the dead , as he hath done in all other thinges , and many , which séeme not to be so necessary , as those héere doe estéeme the offering for the dead , whom they doe grieue more , then any commaundement that God hath euer gyuen . If that were comprised in the loue that we owe vnto our neighbour , how could the spirite of God holde his peace , Iesus Christ and saint Paul his Apostle , who haue so much stroue against it , and commaunded loue towardes our neighbour , and haue not once spoken any word to make prayers , almoste nor sacrifices for the dead ? If that same had bene necessary , and according to the will of God , why would they haue more hidden it from vs then any other thinge ? howe can that which Iesus Christ and also his Apostles haue sayde be true , that they haue declared and manifested vnto vs all the wyll of God ? Doe we not then vnto them greate iniury , to make that a commaundement of loue and charitie of whiche they haue neuer spoken off ? But I am not abashed sithe that almost in all other thinges the Priestes dooe followe the Panims , and the Iewes the Mosoycall Ceremonyes , abolyshed by Iesus Christe , howe they haue not followed them in this matter , and that they doe not absteyne to come néere the deade , and to assist them at their buryalles , as the auncient Priestes of the lawe , vnto whome GOD hath forbidden it . For if they woulde bée Iewes , and followe them in older thinaes , they oughte also to followe them in thys , or to yéelde a reason , wherefore they followe them in one thing , and not in an other . Wherein the Priests doe folow the Iewes & Panims

Hillarius .

they had rather to followe the Gentyles and Panims in this behalfe : For their Ceremonies and superstytions doo bringe vnto them more profite , the which they followe , notwithstandinge they are nothing worthe , as I haue alreadye sayde . Wherefore I thincke that they would haue made to others , a lawe gathered out of all that whiche was euyll and wycked .

Theophilus .

It is then easelye to bée vnderstanded by all those thinges that the prayse that Neomi dyd Ruth . 1. b. 8 Ruth . 2. d. 20 gyue vnto Ruth , sayinge : The Lorde deale as kindlye wyth you , as ye haue dealte wyth the dead : And vnto Booz in lyke manner , praysinge hym for that hée hath kepte for the deade that same grace and lyberalytie , as he did vnto the liuinge , regarding not the Masses , prayers , songes and sacrifices whiche they haue done for them : But the loue and charitie that they haue shewed towardes the parents and friendes of the dead that be liuing . Wherefore the holy Scripture declareth what mercy we ought to haue of the dead , and what good déedes God requyreth of vs for them . The prayers , offerings and good deedes , that What good deedes God requireth for the dead . Ruth , that good wydowe , did make for hir husbande that was dead : was , that she kept company , faith and loyaltie wyth Noemi hir Mother in lawe , hir husbandes mother . A poore widowe both of husbande and children as shée hirselfe Ruth & Noemi was , she comforted hir in hir afflictions and aduersities : And nourished , cherished & loued hir , & was attendaunt vpon hir in hir olde age , as though she had bene hir owne The good deedes done vnto the dead by Booz . mother . In like manner the grace and loue that Booz hath also kept & done vnto the sonnes of Noemi as well to those that were dead as to those the be liuing , that is , that euen as during their life , he hath exercised loue and charitie towards them in cherising and comfortinge them , the lyke affection hath he kept towardes them after they were deade . And when he coulde no more ayde and succour them , and that they had no more neede of him , hée hath declared his loue that he dyd beare vnto them , towardes the wydowes , mothers and wiues , of whome he hath had pittie and compassion , & hath hulpen them both in body & goods , procuring wyth all his power the honour and profite both of the one Ruth . 4. c. 10 & of the other , vntill he did take to wyse that poore widowe Ruth the Moabite , which was the graundmother of Dauid , Mat. 1. 3. 3 and hir remembraunce is celebrated with the same of Booz hir husbande , in the gonealogy of Iesus Christe . Wherefore we may knowe , howe much the woorke bothe of the one & of the other hath pleased God , & what remembraunce we ought to haue of the dead .

Thomas .

I doe finde that to bée the best waye , to bestowe and giue the almose vnto the poore widowes and fatherlesse children ( for that is the true Religion ) then for to take their goodes and bestowe them vppon the dead , or to waste and consume them vppon bawdes and harlots , and vpon their children in like manner .

Hillarius .

I warrant you they will not followe any good example , nor the certeine commaundement of God , but what do they follow in this matter ? When I haue wel read ouer and ouer againe all the holy Scripture , I doe not finde one worde . And the most auncientest that I can finde which did first bringe in those manner of dooings among the The Authours & institutors of the fun●ralls Pluto . Diedo Aeneal Virg. Aene. 5 Ouid. Fast . 2. 5 Romulus . Plutar. in Romulo . Panims , was Pluto : of whome we will speake off héereafter , whome the Docts and the Panims haue made the God of the soules : and the king of the dead , and of hell . After him came Aeneas , who did bringe that custome into Italy . After Aeneas , Romulus and Numa the Kinges of the Romaines : afterwardes our Popes , who haue contynued , augmented and confirmed still more and more those errours and abuses . Althoughe that the Panyms hadde yet a certeyne better opynion in the same , then our superstitious Papystes hadde . For they dyd not make the sacryfices for the deade , for the estymation that they hadde , that that shoulde serue them for to deliuer them from paines , but for to appease them , to the ende that their spirites shoulde not hurt them and doe them euill , if they had displesed them when they were aliue . For Plato himselfe who hath bene the one of the chiefest forgers & Plato de repub li. 12. After death the parents and friends can doe uothuig . inuenters of Purgatory , witnesseth plainely , that the parents & friends cannot profit the dead . And therfore ( saith he ) the parents , friends and kinsslolkes ought to admomshe their friends that they do liue well and honestly , and to do presently vnto them that good . For there ( to wytte ) after this life , they cannot giue it them . And before the iudgement seat there shall not be any great company of parents & friends which shall mainteine and defende and intreate the Iudge , and which canne obtaine of him , that he wil pardon thée .

Theophilus .

I would to God that all our diuines bad no more euill and wicked opinions then that panim , touching the dooings of the dead , and that they had saide noe sentence lesse to be credited then this .

Thomas .

If the panims did not meane that their sacrifices & commemoration should profit the dead , wherefore did they it then .

Hillarius .

It might be that they did thinke , that there might retourr● vnto them some little profit : But yet neuerthelesse their cheife intent and purpose was to appease the soules of the dead and to reconcile them vnto them by that meanes , to the end they should not hurt them , either in their bodies or goods : euen as they haue accustomed to celebrate scasts and to do sacrifices vnto the soules of holy men , whom they did think to be in heauen with the gods , for to haue ayd and solace , as Aeneas did vnto his Father Diuers sacrili●ces for the dead , for diuers causes Anchises . And all that errour procéeded , from the false opinion that they had of the soules , and for want of knowing their nature and estate , therefore they iudged after their owne sence and vnderstanding , and not after the word of God . As they do also of the bodies , thinking ( at the least the most supersticyous , as it hath bene alreadye touched ) that the soule doth walke a certaine time , if their bodyes hath not bad the honor of the burial , such as apertameth & was Virg. Aene. 5 meete for them : And that the bodies were in daunger of Enchantors and sorcerers , which would abuse them thorow their Nycromancic & coniuration . And the Hebrewe The opinion of the Rabius and Doctors of ●ae lews touching the body The dwell A●izel . Ge● . of . 3. d 14 Esa. ●5 . d. 24 Rabins , and doctors of the Iewes , and in no lesse dreaming . For they say , that the dead body is left in the power of the diuell , who calleth him selfe Zazell , and doe wrest and turne those places of the scripture , for to confirme their erroure , vnto whom it is said vnto the Serpent : Thou shalt eate of the earth all the dayes of thy life . And in another place . The earth shal be the Serpents meate . They woulde conclude by those words , that the body of man , and all that which is in the fleshe , and the vices therein , is giuen for meate to the Serpent , whom they do call Azazell , lord of the fleshe and the bloud , and Prince of that world , saying that he is also called in Leuiticus the Prince of the deserts . Sith then that our body is created and made of the slime Genes. 2. a. and dust of the earth , and that the earth is giuen for meat vnto the serpent , they conclude thereby , that our bodies are subiect vnto him , and in his power , vntill such time as they be sanctified , and that the earthly fleshe bee transformed and changed into a spirituall nature . And therfore say The foundation of the prayers for the dead they that that body hath neede both in his buriall , & whilest that he is in this earth , to be purified & sanctified through prayers sacrifices , encensements , exorcismes , coniurations , and other ceremonies fit for the same .

Theophilus .

Durand in that booke , wherein he yeldeth Daran Radiui . off . li. 7. Rub. de off . promort . Reisersperg . Sermo do●inic 23. post trinit. & 24. & feri . 7. . sest prasent . B. Mar. & don 1. ●duent. & fers . 4 fest. S. Andr The vse of holy water at the burials the reason of all the popish ceremonies , speaking of the office and burying of the dead , allegeth the same reasons , and almost nothing differeth from the Iewes and Cabalistes . Wherein we may well know that the supersticious christians followe more the Iewish and Cabalisticall doctrine , then the Christian and Apostolicall doctrine . For Durand himselfe is compelled to confesse , that the bodies of the dead are encensed and sprinkled with holy water , not to that end that they are purged and deliuered from their sinnes , which could not then by such things , be defaced & put out : But to the ende that the wicked spirites , and theyr presence should be dryuen away . And therefore saith hée that in some places , they do put of the the holy water into the tombe or graue , with the fire and encense , and that the holy water is put there , to the e●de that the diuell shoulde not come neere , for he doth feare it very much .

Hillarius .

It hath bene well declared and proued by Fryer Gyles that holy Cordelier , vnto whom the diuel appeared A fable of a Cordelier , li. co●form● . so terrible , that he could not speake for feare . And as the diuell came vppon him and greeued him muche , Fryer Giles could not arise , but did creepe as well as hee coulde vnto a vessell wherein was holy water , wherewith hee sprinkled himselfe : and was incontinently deliuered from that feare that the diuell did vnto him .

Theophilus .

Behold a good proofe : the holy water hath then more vertue and power then Iesus Christe , and the faith in him : or els that Fryer Gyles had no faith , which is The faith . Ephe. 6. c. 16 the buckler and shield , wherewith the Apostle teacheth vs to resist the diuell . I do muche meruaile where God hathe commaunded to driue away the diuell by water , and when To driue away the diuell , by water the true seruants of God haue vsed such weapons aginste the diuell .

Hillarius .

At the leastwise they must prouide for him a boate if they would driue him awaye by water ,

Theophilus .

When the witnes of the scripture faileth it must néedes be , that those maisters of ceremonies haue then recourse vnto fables . But for to returne againe vnto the reasons of Durand , he addeth moreouer , that in what soeuer place the christians shal be buried out of the churchyarde , they ought to set alwayes a crosse at his head . For the diuell doth feare very much that signe , & dareth not to The s●me of the Crosse . come nigh the place , where he seeth the crosse .

Hillarius .

That is bicause that the earth which is out of the church yard , is not coniured . Wherby it hath not so much vertue . And therfore in recompence , they do ad the crosse , for to driue away the diuell .

Theophilus .

For the same cause do they also coniure the earth of the churchyard . For as they The hattayle of the D●●ll against the dead bodyes . do witnes & affirme , the diuels haue vsed to get them vnto the dead bodies , and to exercise their cruelty and vengeaunce against them , and inforce themselues to do vnto them , at the least wise after that they are dead that whiche they could not do whilest they were aliue . Furthermore , they Reisersperg . Sermi de mor. ●●t dominie . piniqua . Mat. 22. h. 21. say that at the day of iudgement , our Lorde Iesus Christe will say vnto them that present themselues vnto him , that whiche be aunswered vnto the disciples of the Herodians , and Pharises when they asked of him the question of the tribute , and that they had shewed vnto him the money and Image of Cesar . Euen so will he say vnto those : whose is this Image ? what money is this ? Then those which shal be marked with the crosse , shal be knowen to bee good christian money : And Iesus Christ will say : that whiche is Cesars , that is to say , vnto the diuell , giue it him & that which is vnto God , giue it to God .

Hillarius .

I am abashed if the diuell dares carrye away those which haue made vppon them the signe of the materiall crosse , especially the priestes and moonks , whiche are all hyd and couered with them ? Are not these goodly reasons , and most worthy of such diuines ?

Eusebius .

Yea , those are Godly reasons , what will you say to the contrary ? do ye thinke that soe manye wise men which haue bene in the churche haue not well considered the causes , wherefore they ought to do that ? And that it hath not ben ordeyned without good & iust reason ?

Theophilus

Thou hast heard them , and thou hast also the Iewes , Cabalists and Panyms , for to be the firste authors of them . But those dreames are yet more tollerable , and worhty of pardon then those here , bycause that hauing the braine full of false opinions , and inchauntments , they feare least the enchauntors , Magitians , and especially the coniurers , and the diuell with them , should abuse their bodies , thorow their enchauntments necromances & witchcraft . But what excuse or coloure can the christians haue , who ought to be assured of their saluation in Iesus Christ , as wel for the body as for the soule , vsing such ceremonies , which I may truly call charmes inchauntements , & magicall supersticions and purifications , and not euangelical . For although that the earth hath bene giuen for meate to the serpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth , how will God permit and suffer , that that olde serpent , shall defile 1. Cor. 6. 1. 19 those bodyes whiche haue bene the Temple & habitation of his holy ghost ? And whiche haue bene consecrated vnto him , thorow the bloud of his sonne Iesus Christ , and sanctified thorow his spirite ? haue the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed , after the manner as the enchaunters & charmers do their exorcisms & coniurations and a corruptible and a materiall crosse , more vertue then the consecration of our bodies and soules , whiche Iesus Consecration of Iesus Christ . Christ the great and soueraigne Byshoppe and eternall Priest , hath done by his bloud and the liuely water of his holy spirit , and the baptisme that we haue receyued in his name ? And if we as good christians haue borne the crosse with him , that is to say , the troubles and aduersities of this world , in all patience , and haue put all our hope and trust in the merite of his death & passion , reioysing our selues only in his crosse , as the holy apostle saith wee ought not to doubte but that that faithe , hath imprinted suche a crosse and such a signe and marke in our hearts and bodies , the the diuel dareth not to approch nor come nigh them . And if that same is not sufficient , there is none other after To heare the crosse of Christ . Mat. 16. d. 24. Luc. 14. ● . 27 our death , which can serue vs . Furthermore sith that God hath giuen vnto vs his Angels , for to serue , kéepe & defend vs , let vs not feare , that as they haue ca●ted the soule of Lazarus , into Abrahams bosome , and haue kepte and defended the body of Moses from the power of the diuell , and Gal. ● . d. 14 did striue and fight for it against them , but that they wil be Stigmatos . The Angells the ministers of the faithfull . Psa. 91. c. 11 Lue. 16. e. 22. Heb. 1. d. 14. Epist Iude. b. 9. The body and burial of Moses Deut. 34. b. 6 also assisting vnto all true faithfull people , for to kéepe their bodies & soules , according to the charge and commission that they haue of God and that God himselfe woulde bury them rather , as he hath buried Moses , then to suffer that Sathan shoulde haue domination or rule ouer them . Wherfore I do greatly feare , that the bodies and reliques which the idolatrous christians do worshippe , and honour vnder the name and title of the saincts , & saintes , are not The holy bodie and relicks . the true bodies and reliques of the Saincts and true seruants of God , but rather those of some malefactory or wicked man and abhominable before God . For it euer any bodyes were lefte vnder the power of the olde Serpent , and of the Diuell , those be they , of whom men haue made Idols , & which haue ben set vp for relicks for to be adored & worshipped , & which haue bene the occasion among the Christian people of the greatest Idolatry the euer was in the worlde . Wherefore it is most lykest to be true , that the diuell maketh himselfe to be worshipped and honoured by the bodyes in which he dwelled , and of which he was serued during their lyfe , then in those whiche haue bene the Temple of the lyuing God , and which haue serued to his honour and glory , forsaking altogether the diuell and his seruice . The Iewes and Cabalysts haue estéemed those purifications and ceremonyes about the dead , of which we haue spoken , to be necessary to their bodyes bicause that the Magicians and coniurers haue vsed to steale them Coniurers awaye , or to take certayne members from them for to serue for their witchcraftes & to make them instruments of the diuell : as it appeareth by the witnesse of many auncient writings and historyes . Lucanus Phars . li. 6. Erichtho the Sorcerer The custome of Theslaly . Apul. in asini . aur. li. 2.

Hillarius .

Lucan declareth it very playnely , describing the Witchcraftes and Sorceryes of Erichtho . For that same cause the custome was in Thessalia the which hath alwayes had the name to be full of Enchaunters , Witches and Coniurers , that when any man was dead , a certeine Seriaunt or common Heralde cryed with a loude voyce in the open stréete , that if there were any man which woulde kéepe a dead body lette him come foorth and bargaine and agrée for the price ?

Thomas .

Wherefore did they so ? haue the dead bodyes in Thessaly vsed to run away ? or whether they were more daungerous then in other countryes . Mortui non mordent . Percius . in pertam rig. dos calces eaten dit .

Hillarius .

Thou mayst well knowe , that the deade bodyes can no more byte any man , and that they are in an euil case , for to runne away sith the they must be carryed to be buryed , their seete stretched out right before .

But I thinke that thou hast not forgotten that which we haue spoken of the Panyms , how that they doe not bury their dead by and by , and the causes wherefore And therefore the Thessalians , vsed to keepe their dead al the night , vntil the day that they burned their bodies , and buried Apul. in Asini . li. 2. Sagae mulieres , ora mortuorum passim demorsicant : ea quae sunt illis artis Magicae supplementa Imo vero etiam muscas indunt . their ashes , bicause they had that opinion , that the sorcerers did come in the night and did byte their faces , and dismember them , for to serue them for their enchauntements and witchcraftes : and for to doe the same , they transforme and chaunge them selues into the forme and likenes of what beast they list : sometime into the likenes of birdes , some time like dogs , or myce : yea into the likenes of very flyes : and afterwards doe flye and come into the houses and enter so subtilly and secretly that none cane perceiue it . And when they are entred within , they thorowe their enchauntements doe make those that keepe them fall into a slepe , afterwards they doe vnto the dead bodies what it pleaseth them . For that cause the parents and frinds of the dead , did hire kéepers , for a péece of money , for to watch all the night by the dead bodie , without sléeping any thing at all , not so much as to winke , or to turne their face here and there , but to haue theyr eyes alwayes fixed vpon the dead body . After that they haue founde out keepers , whiche will take vppon them that charge , they deliuer the body vnto them in charge , hauing witnesses how they haue deliuered it all whole and sound afterwards they shut them into a chamber , with the dead body , and a lampe full of Oyle , for to giue them light vntill the morning , and water within vessels . And if he that Quicquid inde decaptum dimi nutumque juerit id omne de facie sua desectum , sarcire compellitur . kéepeth it do not take good héede of the body the next day whatsoeuer is wanting or diminished of the dead body that he hath euil and negligently kept , hee is bounde to restore and recompence it of his owne proper face .

Thomas .

These people were verye fooles to beléeue such follyes . Who hath written the same .

Hillarius .

A good doctor called Apuleus , whiche saith that he hath done that office himselfe .

Thomas .

Truely thou hast very well founde it . Peraduenture he hath séene the same , whilest that he was chaunged into an Asse . To wate●h the dead .

Hillarius .

I do confesse , that the same is a great dreaming : But do not the christians almost the like ? doe not they also watche the dead bodies with a candle and holy water ? Are they afrayd that they would runne away , or least the Cattes or Mice should come and gnawe the féete and the face of the dead ? or whether they are afraid of witches and coniurers ? or that the diuell shoulde carry them away , as one hath written of some , whose bodies are not yet toune ? if God hath giuen power vnto the diuels ouer the dead bodies : the water , candles , fire nor incense , shall not make them afrayd , nor yet the witchecraftes and coniurations , except they will say , that they do vse charme against charme , and that theirs is more stronger then those of the enchauntors .

Theophilus .

It is not now néede , that they take such paines , for to driue awaye the diuels or the socerers from them . For their was neuer forcerer , coniurer nor enchauntor , that abused more vile and shamefully the bodies of men , nor to the greater dishonoure of God and hurte of all the Christianitie , then the Priestes and Moonks , who in steade of the coniuring , that is to say , diuination by the dead that the Panyms and Infidels haue exercised and vsed , they haue set vp & erected a necrolatrie , that is to say , an Coniuring . adoration and worshipping of the dead , and the most greatest Idolatrie that euer was vpon the earth : And haue made the bodies of men to serue the diuell , & haue made him to be worshiped , vnder the name and title of them , euen as Saul worshiped him vnder the name of Samuel , by the Necrolatrie meanes of his old witche . Is not that a great blasphemy and sacriledge , to offer & consecrate vnto the diuell the bodies of men , whom Iesus Christ hath dedicated and consecrated Saul . 1. Reg. 18. a. 7. A witch to God thorow his bloud , for to bee the Temple of the holy Ghost , not for to be Idols , that men shoulde worship them , in stede of God ? we may very well say , that these bodyes of which Sathan is serued vnder the tytle The bodyes of dead men in the steede of the Idolls of the Panims of the relyckes of saints , after the manner as he was ierued before of the Images and Idolls of the panims , haue not bene well coniured by the charmes , witchings , crosse , candells , encense and holy water for to driue the Diuell from them : or els the all those things were nothing worth sith that Sathan hath had such power vpon them , that hée hath letted them to retourne vnto the place which God hath assigned them , to wyt , into the earthe out of which Genes. 3 d , 19 Epist. Iude. b. 9. they came , and that he hath done that that hée pretended to do about the body of Moses , the which he desired to set vp for an Idoll among the people of Israel , knowing that Exo. 20. a , 4 Deut. 5 , a. 6 God hath forbidden Images and Idolls . And there is no doubt , but that he had brought it to passe , if God by the ministring of his Angells , had not letted him , and shewed The buriall of the Saints his vertue and power , not thorow materiall crosses , holy water , candells and torches , encense and lyghts , and other like supersticions , the which Moses had not at his buryall nor all the Patriarches , Pruphetes , and Apostles , nor yet of Prayers , Suffrages , nor Sacrifices , after their death , and yet they were neuerthelesse delyuered from the power of the serpent .

Hillarius .

You forgette the principall , you speake not of the habite of Saint Fraunces which hath yet more vertue The vertue of S , Fraunces habite then all that which you haue declared and spoken off , if we will beléeue and giue any credite vnto the Cordeliers and Nonnes . For it doth not onely driue away the diuells which are about the bodye , but also it quencheth the fire of Purgatory , and mitigateth the paynes , especially if that he which hath clad himselfe with it doe dye vpon Saint Fraunces daye . But which is more , it delyuereth The feast of Saint Fraunces . from eternall death , as the Cordeliers doe witnesse of the king of Castilia , which was delyuered , bicause that being The king of Castilia Most horrible blasphemy . The selicitie of the lyce & their boldenesse ready to dye he did put on him that holy garment , & dyed in the same : and aswell of other Kings & Quéenes , of whom mention is made of them in the booke of the conformities . Whrfore I esteeme the lice the most happiest creatures of all others , according to the Theologie of the Cordeliers . For there dyeth a great number of them within that holy habite . Wherefore Fryer Lewes did no wrong , in callyng them the pearles of the poore . But I doe much meruayle of one thing , that the Lyce are more bolder then the Diuells , sith that the Diuells doe so much feare that holy habite that they dare not approche and come nighe , and the Lyce lodge there at their ease . I should well beléeue that if the Diuells were as fearefull as the young children , that they shoulde be greatly afrayde of that habite and maske at the beginning , when they did see men so wildely disguysed . And I thinke , that if Ortis the kings Ortis a Moore Moore , had bene the firste that had dyed in that habite , that they woulde haue had great feare . For he was as blacke as a Diuell , & disguysed as a Cordelier , wherefore they would haue founde the same very straunge .

Thomas .

But I am wonderfully abashed , wherfore they put rather a crosse in the handes of those which dye in the habite of Saynt Fraunces , then in the hands of poore simple people , who are buried onely in a shéete .

Hillarius

I can giue vnto thée none other reason , but that I thinke that the same is done by the permission and prouidence of God , which will that men should doe vnto them honour , as they customally doe vnto the euill and wicked men , when they are executed thorow Iustice , vnto which in many places and countryes , they make him to beare a crosse in his handes , chiefely the Sorcerers and Heretickes . Wherefore men doe not very great wrong vnto those Idolaters which doe put theyr affiaunce and What doth the crosse signifie vhich is beciven the hands of those which do dye in the habite of Saint Fraunces trust in an olde rotten garment , to compare them vnto the Sorcerers and Heretickes , rather then to the poore simple people , sith that they haue declared themselues more Infidells then the other , and that they haue lesse fayth and hope in the merite of the death and passion of Iesus Christ .

Eusebius .

Wherefore doest thou speake so outragiously , sith that the most honeste and wise men and which are most estéemed in this worlde , haue desired to dye in that habite ?

Theophilus .

So much the more oughte wée to feare moste , seeing that the efficacie and strengthe of Sathan The efficacie of Sathan . hath béene so greate , that the most wysest men of the worlde , and those which are accompted for good and vertuous men , haue bene deceyued thorowe such opinions , and are fallen into such blasphemyes , the which yet those wicked Moonkes are not ashamed to vpholde and maynteyne . For what blasphemy was euer greater The blasphemy of the cordelier vppon the earthe , as to to attribute vnto suche a Maske , the healthe and saluation of soules , and to make an Idoll and newe Christ , not onely of Saynt Fraunces , but also of his hoode and habite ? Whereas in déede I doe not thinke , that he was euer disguysed in such sorte , and that he hath bene the author of those blasphemyes , of which vnder his name and tytle all the worlde hath bene filled and poysoned , thorowe the meanes and practise of those false bretheren the Cordeliers , which haue bene the Trompette and Bagpipe of sathan The bagpipe of Sathan . throughout all Christendome , together with theire other companions . But to what ende doth that habite profite the deade ? It maye serue for those that bee lyuing for a gowne , hose , bonet and hoode , for to couer and keepe them from the colde .

Hillarius .

You doe yet forgette the chiefest . For it serueth also vnto the Moonkes , for to shewe that they The vtlliue of the habite are effeminated , and worthye to bee taken for woemen , although that by their workes , they sufficiently declare themselues not to be woemen , and that men doe not call them father , without good cause . Yet neuerthelesse mée thinkes they are repugnaunt to the Scripture which forbiddeth men to putte on woemens rayment , nor the The disguising of men like women . Deut 22. a. 5 woeman that which pertayneth vnto the man . And yet neuerthelesse , hée which shall consider and marke well their apparayle , they are lyker woemens apparayle then mens , aswell those which they commonly weare , as the vestements which they doe vse in their Masses .

Theophilus .

I graunt vnto thée all that : but to what ende serueth it to the dead ? First of all what profite can it bring vnto the soule ? For it cannot touch it , cloathe , nor couer it , nor yet descende into Purgatory with it .

The body also goeth neither into purgatory nor into hell , but is buryed in the earth , vntill the day of the resurrection . For then the habite shall be cleane rotten , and I do not beléeue that it shall arise with the body , and that those which are dead in the same , shall arise agayne clothed in a Cordelier . For it shall not be then time to make maskes and daunce the morish . There is neyther the habite of Fraunces , Dominicke , nor of any Moonke whatsoeuer he be , nor any thing that man can muent and dreame , which can serue vs any thing before the face of that great Iudge The iudgement of God . The leanes of the Fig tree of Adam . Genes. 3. ● . 7 of the quicke & of the dead , no more then the Fig leanes serued Adam for to couer him before him , but that hée will sée all our filthinesse and abhominations , if they hée not couered and hid with the righteousnes and innocencie of Iesus Christ . Wherefore if we will appeare clothed and not naked before his maiestie , it must be that he himselfe doe cut out and make the apparayle and habite , wherewith we must be clothed , as he did make vnto Adam Adams apparell and and Eue. And therfore we must follow the counsaile of the Apostle , who exhorteth vs to put off the olde man , and to put on , not the habite of Fraunces or Dominicke , but our Lur Lord Iesus Christ . For that is an habite which The habite of Christ & of the relygious Christians Ephe. 4. ● . 22 Collo , 3 , b. 10. serueth both to the body and to the soule , and which delyuereth from the iudgement of god . That is the holy water , the lights , bells , sencings and candells , which delyuereth our bodies & soules from the power of the serpent , whose head he hath broken . That is the water of lyfe , Genes. 3. c 15 Iohn . 4. b. 14 which rayseth vs vnto eternall lyfe : which washeth and maketh cleane our consciences . That is the true fire of Purgatorye , and furnayce in which the olde Adam is melted and made newe , and the newe man purged from all his filthynesse and simes . Wherefore I doe giue counsell vnto you all , that you take good héede that such treasure be not stollen from you , and that you trust not to the good déeds which those that be alyue shall doe for you after that you are dead : But that you doe putte your trust in Iesus Christ , and declare and shew foorth the vertue and efficacie of your fayth , thorow charitie and good workes , which doe serue to the glory of God , to the edyfiyng of his Church , and the vtilytie of our neighbour , and that you follow the example of the true seruaunts of God , and the doctrine which the holy Ghost by them hath giuen vnto vs , not the Gentiles and Panims , and the false pyophets & seducers , which haue altogether turned vpside downe the Christian Religion , and haue conuerted it , not only into Iewishnes , but also into panimrie , witchcraft , & sorcertee .

Eusebius .

You haue spoken as it pleaseth you : but I must néeds auniswere you . For if you dispute & plead all alone , you may easely winne the victory .

Hillarius .

We desire none other thing then to heare thy reasons but wée haue forgotten one of the princiyall poynts . For we haue not yet demaunded of Thomas the cause wherfore he would go to saint Patricke : the which I desire glady to know .

Thomas .

I haue determined with my selfe many times to tel you : but I desire , to heare first what Eusebius can say agaynst you . Wherefore I doe thinke it best that forasmuch as all these dayes , there is none of vs which is so greatly occupyed but that wée may giue him the next day for his reuenge , to aunswere : And after that I haue hearde all you , I will declare vnto you the meruaylous fantastes which I haue in my head .

Hillarius .

I beléeue , that there is none of vs , but that he is of that opinion .

Theophilus .

In stéede where others doe passe awaye the time in playing and other vayne occupations , whereoff commeth no profite , I finde it better , that we vse such recreations , which bring no hurt vnto any man , but may much serue and profite vs . For in so doing we learne the one the other : and doe examine the things together , the better to knowe how to render a reason of our Law and Religion : besides that we learne some honest recreation together , the which is better agreeing with our estate , then to remayne idle without doing any thing , or in losing the time in beholding foolysh playes and maskes : or in banketting and in bestowing great expences , yet to the hurte and domame of our bodyes and soules : or vnto sléeping , and as beastes to giue our selues onely vnto pleasures , as many doe . And although that all wée may bée occupied in other mens affaires , eyther publicke or domesticall , which woulde better serue for the pursse and for the perticular gayne & profite : yet neuertheles one cannot be alwaies attentife in great affaires , without hauing some intermission and relaxation of the spirite : And wée must not be so couetous after the gayne and the perticular profite , that at no time we should haue leasure to speake and falke of the things of God , and that thorow honest pleasures and recreations , we may not refresh our wits and spirites , and prepare them agayne to the great affaires to which God hath called vs all , according to the grace that we haue receyued of him .

Thomas .

There is nothing more certeyn then that which thou sayst , and I would not for a great thing , but that I had bene with you and to haue heard , that which I haue heard . Hillarius . Wée shall knowe in the ende what tast thou hast had therein . Yet neuerthelesse I doe more feare leaste that Eusebius bée more offended then thou . But I trust notwithstandinge , that the hope that he hath of the victory , will giue him courage and boldnesse to come agayne the more willyngly .

¶ A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL matters of the first parte of the Dialogues . A. ABuses are not yet inough vncouered & made knowne . fol. 16 Accipe sal sapientae . 35. Aduenturers . 47. Adams apparell . 114. Affectators of languages . what affections the Gospel doth permit . 67. Alexander the firste inuentiour of holye water . 35. Alexandrines . 66. Alexander Seuerus Emperour . 43. Ambrose and Theodosius . 78. Ambition of Alexander . 13. Anacharsis . 5. Angells the ministers of the faithful . 103. Anniuer saries . 25. Antipopes and Schisutaticks . 88. Apes requisite in the court of Babilon . 19. Apes of Iesus Christ . 35. Apothegme of Diogenes . 60. Applications of Iesus Christ . 34 Arithiuettcians and schoole of Arithineticke . 42. Aristoxenus . 70. The art to learn priests to be sober . 39. All artes & disciplines the handmaidens of holy letters or bookes . 6. Auarice of the Romaines . 41. Auernus . 90. The authors & instituters of funeralls . 100. B. Bables of fooles . 8. Bay tree . 75. Bactrianians and Hireanians . 58. Bacchus . 33. 13 Babilon taken 93. Bagpipe of Sathau . 106. Banner and the crosse . 73. Baptisine . 41. Baptisines and wasshings of the Iewish people . 34. Baptising of bells . 73. Bathes . 45. Bathing place of the dead . 36. Battayle of the diuell agaynst dead bodyes . 102. Belles and Images the Priests vicars 71. Bells doe speake all languages . 72. Bells to driue away the dwells . 73. Bellyes that are shoughtfull . 74. Benedictio bladi , salis & ouerum . 42. Benedictio resurni . 42. Benedictio pera ; & baculi . 42. Benedictio annuh & lecti . 42. Benedictio domus nouae . 42. Benedictio casulae . 42. Benedictio ad omnia . 42. Benedictio panis & seminum . 42. Bewtifie the sepulchers with floures . 45. Brernoyes . 66. Blasphemy most horrible . 105. Blasphemy of the Cordelier . 106. The blessings of the Missell & the Manuell of the Priests . 42. Blondus . 47. Bodie and burnall of Moses . 103. Bodyes of dead men in steede of the Idolls of the Panims . 105. The bones of Christ whole . 50. The booke of Iob dedicated to the deade . 70. Uile bookes 7. Good bookes despised and forbidden . 8. Bookes disceuering abuses . 9. Ioyfull Bookes . Bookes and talkes that are filthy . 9. Latin Bookes . 4. French bookes . 4. Saint Brandon . 95 Burying of the poore in the night . 33. Bury one before he is dead . 64. Burying of the rich . 68. Burying of Pallas . 68 Burying of the poore . 69. Burying of the Turkes . 70 Buryals of Daynts . 105. Buryall solde . 43. Those dishonour God which do not honestly bury the dead . 67. Burying of the Barbarians . 66. Burying of an Asse . 68. Burying of a Rauen. 69. Butchery of the Priestes . 65 Bishop Tibaud . 89 Bishops the Priests bawdes . 43 C. Calender of the Shepheards . fol. 27 The Candell that goeth before . 64. Canes sepulehrale● . 58 Sea Calues . 75. Canon of the Masse & the Alcoran forbidden to be reade . 80. Canonization 78. Canonization of Saynts . 31. Capernaites . 49. 50. Carnal Gospellers . 39. The cause wherefore God doth chastice vs in this world . 83. The cause wherefore the Purgatory of Iesus Christ hath bene vnknown . 57 Cerberus the Porter of hell . 51. Chanong of Mount Faulcon . 58. Char●bdis . 91. Charon the feryman . 87. The charitie of the auncient Christians . 54. The chasticement of the father tourards the childe . 84. Christ and Antechrist . 88. The christian all in all 8. The Christian tributarye before hee isborne and after he is dead . 41. Churchyarde . 67. Cicero and Catilina . 7. Cocytus . 92. Commemoration of the dead . 77. Commemoration of Mortirs 77. Complaynt of a Curate . 65. Comparison of the rich man and of Lazarus . 98. Comparison of the true Priestes and Phisitians . 76 Coniurers . 10● . Coniuring . 104. Coniure the time . 75. Confession . 41. Confirmation . 41. The confines of hell . 23. Consilium Elibertinum . 53. Consecration of Iesus Christ . 103. Counsell of Demas . 13. Counsell to worship the hoste . ●1 . To beare the crosse of Iesus Christ . 103 The croyzatde . 54. Cryings of the dampned . 26. The crueltie of Pope Clement . 43 The crueltie of the Priestes towardes the soules . 62. Custome of the Bigordians 45. Custome of Thessalia . 103 Custome of the Aegyptians . 77. Custome to praise the deade . 77. Auncient custome . 70 The custome of the deade , and the serye money of Charon . 45. D. Dayes dedicated vnto the dead . 99 Dama●cenus . 96. Daungerous beggers . 55. Darkenesse of the world . 1 Dathan and Abiron . 57. Daughters of the horfeleach . 52 The deade why are they called trespasses . 87 Death doth mocke the Priestes . 65. Death bought for money . 45. Holy deceiuing . 9. Decrees and Canons . 88 Delyueraunce from hell . 95 Demaund tribute of the dead . 4● Demetrians . 91. Democritus . 20. Depart out of Aegypt . 93. Diana the goddesse of the Ephesians . 93. Dicearchus . 70. The Deitie . 38. Difference of smnes , and the diuersitie of the estates of the dead . 30. Difference betweene to speake euill and to speake the truth . 53. The dykes of the fortresses of the Papists . 91. Diodorus . 77. Diogenes . 34. 20. Disguysing of men lyke woeemen . 106. Discending into hell in Sycile . 24. The discription of the hill Aetna . 25. Dispensation for to eate flesh and white meate . 43. Disputations of Ciccero . 10. To dispute with hereticks . 59. Diuells visible . 26. The diuell Zazel or Azazel . 101 Diuision of the infernal Cosmography . 28 Diuersitie of purgations 31 Diuers opinions of the delyueraunce of Traianus . 95. The doctrinall of Alexander . 6. Doctine Papisticall . 95 Doctrine of man mingled with the heauenly doctrine . 15. Dodonaeum aes , dodonae lebe●es . 74 The Dormouse . 36. Drinke vppon the hyde to came . 6● . To driue away the dutell by water . 102. To driue away the dwell thorow fastings and prayers . 39. The purging drogues of the Panims . 33. Dumme Dogges and cryers . 5● . E. Eares delyeate and pleasaunt . fol. 12. To eate Iesus Christ . 49. To eate Iacob . 50. To eate the skinne and the bones 51. Aegyptians at this present time . 1 Aegypt and Babilon . 2. Eloquence Apostolycall and humayn . 5. Eloquence without the feare of god . 7. Emperours and Popes abolyshing the statutes of their predecessours . 88 Epiphanius . 74 Epicurians . 17. Eridanus . 90. Reichtho the Sorcerer . 103. Errors of Saul . 1. Error touching the honouring and inuocation of Saints . 78 Eschines and Demosthenes . 7. The estate of the dend . 79. Aethna the hill Gibello . 24. Eurotos and Peneus . 90. Example of Eliseus . 34 Example of the Smithes . 36 Extreme vnction . 42. Excommunication for money . 68 Extractors of the fifth essence . 22. F. Fable of the Dogge and the Asse . 19 Fayned fable vppon the bittory of Lazarus . 27 Fable of a Cordelier . 102. The Poetical fable of Enceladus and of the Gyaunts . 25. Faith. 10. Fall of Angels and of men . 97. Fall of Peter . 1. Faunes and Satyres . 26 Fall of the Soules . 101 Fastings & praiers of the christians . 39. Feast and procession of Cyble . 74. Fasting hurtfull vnto those that are subiect to anger . 62. Feast of Saynt Fradnces . 105 Feasto ot the dead . 24. F●●ldes Eliseas . 32. The felicitie of Lyce and their boldnes . 105. The fire insatiable . 52. Fire and water . 88. The fire begon in Purgatorie . 82. The celestiall and euangely call fire . 56. The true fire of Purgatory . 56. The true fire of Purgatory . 56. To Ash in troubled water . 92. Fishers of Christ and Antechrist . 92. Fishers of golde and siluer . 92 Fishers forsaken . 93. Fishers of soules . 92. Flears and manglers of Latine . 5. Fleread nouercae tumulum . 6. The floud of Christ . 91. Floudes of hell , their names and interpretaciens . 89. Floudes of wine and milke . 89. Floudes of Paradise . 89 90. The forbidding of Iultan the Apostate . 16 The forbiding of bookes . 90. Formosus . 88. The forchead of the Hypocrites and of the Prophets . 18. To forget God . 91. Foundation for the poore . 70. Foundation of the faith of transubstantiation . 82 Foundations of the praiers for the dead . 101 The foole counsell the wise . 2. Fountaynes of excessiue cooldenesse and heate . 26. Funus ●uneralia . 70. The furnayce of Purgatory . 55. G. Ganges . fol 90. Gaudeamus of the Priests . 55 Vnto whom we must giue . 54. The Geography of hell . 23. The gifte of tongues and languages . 4. Gluttony . 99. God Pluto . 55. God hath not instituted sacrafices nor feastes for the dead . 99. The true God , and that of the priests . 48 Tributary Gods & to be solde . 54. To doe good whilest we are alyue . 98. Gospell publyshed vnto all men . 80. Griffins and hell Rauens . 26. Gregorianists . 79. Greekes and Latins . 77. H. The habite and apparell of Christ , and of the relygious Christians . 106 Harpyes . 52. Hebrus . 90. Hechelberge . 26. Hell and hell fire . 22 Hell and hell fire are eternall . 40 Hell. 22. 29. 40. Hell in Sicily . 25 Heraclitus . 20. Heredis sleius sub persona risus est . 65 Heritage of God . 51. Herodia . 72. Herophiles . 70. Hydes for shoes . 65. The hilles Islande and Norway . 26. The dolorous hill in Scotlande . 26. Hipocrites . 18. Hi1tory . 64. Historyes of our time . 10. A true history of our time . 44 A true history . 81. A true history in the yeare of our Lorde 1538. of a Prieste that was a Sorcerer , and of his whore . 81. Holy Ghost the comforter . 92. The honour of Iesus Christe traden vnder 12. The honour due vnto the dead . 66. Hunters after testaments and heritages 65. I. Idolatry of the Image of our Lady . fol. 74. Iesus Christ the eternall Pope . 88. Wherein the Iewes doe follow the Panims . Saint Ignatius . 95 Induction . 50 Infants that are borne dead . 28 Infants salted . 35. Intention to consecrate . 81. Innocation of Saynts . 80. Imitation of the Panims . 34. Infatible things . 52 Iudas out of hell . 95. Iudgement of the Lord. 106. Iupiter Elyeins . 75. Wherefore shall the Iudgement bee according to the workes . 85. K. Those that doe kill themselues . 68. King of Castille . 105 Kingdome of God . 92. L. Our Lady of Lausanne and hir myracles . 44. The lakes and pondes of the Papists . 89. Lady Dogges . 19. Lake without water . 89. The lakes and infernall floudes . 88. The Pascall Lambe . 50. Lamenting or surr●wing for the dead . 67 Lamentacions of the prieses for the dead . 64 Lamenters . 66. language of the Christians . 9 All languages good vnto God . 4. Lawe of the Babilonians for those that be sicke . 3. Law of Numa . 38. Law of Demetrius . 70. To laugh at the Popes cost . 20. A lesson to the Priests . 99. The leaues of the Fig tree of Adam . 106 The Legendes of the Papists . 78 Libitina Libitinari● . 65 The Limbe . 97. The Limbe of the Infants . 29. Licence and lybertie of Dialogues . 13. The deuouring Lyon. 94. The Lyon of the Tribe of Iuda . 94. To shew lyingswithout truty . 10. To loose ones langhing . 27. The louers of mans honour and traytours of the diuiNE . 12. Lucian and Lucianists . 10. Lucri bonus odor ex●re qualibet . 41. M. Saynt Machalre . 95. Malo nodo , malus cuneus . 18. Manducation spirituall . 49. Manducation charuall . 50. Manducation Papisticall . 50. The manner to mocke to the glorye of God . 12. The manner to speak ioyfully in the holy Scriptures . 14. The infernall Mappes . 24. Merchants in the Church . 53. Mariage . 41. Mariage of Priestes . 81. Marrons which doe burye in the plague tuke . 65. Daungerous Marrianers . 93. Maskes and morish daunces . 99. Masses long and short . 63. Masses of hunters . 63. The Masties and Haryers of Iesus Christ . 20. The meanes to finde out truth . 2. The meanes of God . 35. The meanes to comfort the the priests . 65 Members of Iesus Christ . 50 The Memento of the dead . 81 Men more ioyfull & more priuiledged . 64 Mercury . 33. Merite and grace . 84. Metonimia . 51. The Milanois . 46. Mimus . 65. The true ministers worthy of foode . 71. Minstrells at the burials . 66 Minstrells of lairus . 67 False miracles . 44. Blacke Moonkes . 69 To take money for the Sacramentes & Ecclesiasticall offices . 53. Mortui non mordent . 103. N. Nadhegrin . 26. The nature of of the truth . 11 Naulum . 45. Necrocorinthia . 41. Nerolatrie . 104. Natts and engins of the Priests . 93. Nero. 43 Micanor . 58. Nilometers . 91. The floud Nilus and the fertilitie of Aegypt . 91. Notaryes and Prothonotaryes . 77 Numa Pompilius . 75. O. Obiection . 83. Obolus . 45 The odoures and smell of a hogge . 7. Odilo Abbot . 24. Offer wine for the dead . 37 Office of a foole and babler . 9. Office of a Prophet . 14. Office for the dead . 87 One onely veritie 2. One Masse a day . 63. Opinion of the diuines . 23 Opinion of Isidore . 23. Opinion of the Robins & Iewish Doctors touching the body . 101 Oppedere contra tonittus . 67 Orcus . 90 To take orders . 42 Orationes funebres . 77. The originall and beginning of prayers for the dead . 78 The ornaments of white sepulchers . 52. Ouerflowing of Tiber. 91. Out of tast of the bread of lyfe . 7. P. Panegyres . fol. 77. The payne of those that are depriued from their buriall . 46. Papists excommunicated . 53. Al pipistical pricsts excommunicated . 53. To go into Paradise in post . 63. Paradise . 97. Parentalia . 25. The parents and friendes can doe nothing after one to dead . 101 Pastors and Shepheards feeding them selues . 51. Pericles . 77. To persecute Iesus Christ . 50. Persians . 58. Personages of Dialogues . 15 Peter Rosset a Poet royall 58. Good Phisicians . 64. Phisicians of Soules . 31 Phisitians and Poticaries of hell . 33 Pillers and deuourers . 51. The place of the soules of the papists . 06. Plato and Virgile . 30. Pluto . 40. The poyson of the Athenians . 4● . All Popes Antipopes & Antechrists 88 The Pope maketh the Princes his hanguien . 58. Poinegranards and Bells hanging vppon the bestement of the high Prieste of the law . 73. Potage for the soules . 53. To praye for the Virgin Mary and the Saints . 82. Prayers for the lyuing . 94. To preach Iesus Christ maske wise or couertly . 13. Praeseth bulletarum . 43 Preparation for the departure out this lyfe . 98 Presence of Iesus Christ . 49. It is forbidden the Priests to be at the burying of the dead . 67. The Priests of Cyble . 74. Priests Minstrells . 67 The Priests doe not pray but for those that be in Paradise . 82 Priests the churchyarde and sepulchers both of men and Iesus Christ . 47. Priests following the Iewes . 100 The pride of Caligula . 42. Priuiledge of euil Phisicians and hangmen . 64 Prisoners of Purgatorie . 29. Priuiledges . 95. Priuation of the buriall 68. Profite of the buriall . 97. Profite in discouering abuses . 17. Propertie of salt . ●4 . Prouises of God contrary vnto Papisticall Purgatorie . 82. Prophecie agaynst the Aegyptians . 93. The prose of the dead . 83. A newe Prouerb of the Priests . 65 A Prouerbe . 65. A Prouerbe . velut canise Nylo . 6. Protonatory of name . 78 Purgatory . 32. 97 Purgatory of Iesus Christ and that or the Pope . 56. Purgatory Platonieall . 30 Purgatory and his reuenewes . 23. Purgatory of the pockie . 38 The mouers of sedition of purgatory . 55 How Purgatory is buried . 40. Purifications at the funeralls . 37 The punishment of those that reiect the Gospell & do go vnto a strange fire . 56 Punishment of malefactors . 85. Punishment of Dauid . 83. Q. To quench fire with fire . 58. The quicke reputed for dead . 36 Nuasting forbidden . 99. R. Repines and extorcions of Caligula . 42. Rationale diuinorum osticiorum . 81 Raw earth . 44 Those which doe fly from the reading of holy bookes . 6. Curious readers of foolish bookes . 7 Refounders or melters . 38. Religion of beggers , or begging Religion . 54 Remedy agaynst the thunder and lyghtning . 75. Renullion & forgiuenes in this world 98 The Rentall of Purgatory . 39 To repose or remain Christ . 82. Reproch of the Paysant to the priests . 65 Repugnauncio of doctrine . 94 Requiems of the poore and rich . 63. Requirescant in pace . 38. Thr riches of Purgatory . 30 Three kindes of righteousnesse after Plato . 97 Ringing of belles . 68 To ring for the time . 75 Rule of the diuine seruice for the dead . 63 Ruth and Booz . 97 Ruth and Noe●● . 100. S. Diuers sacrafices the dead for diuers causes . 10● . Sacrafice of Iesus Christ 48 Salt in the baptisute . 35. Salt of wisedome . ●5 . Salt of the worde of God . 35. Salt of the Priests . 35. Salting and seasoning of fooles . 35 The salutation of the souldier vnto the holy fathers . 39 Sampson and Dauid . 94. The efficacie & strength of Sathan . 106 Satiffacion for sinnes . 8● Saturne and Rea. 59. All sauors are good , so that money doe come . 41. The sclpunder of the Pharises . 18. Shepheards feeding themselues . ●1 Scotlande and Irelande . 27. Sellyng of offices . 43. Sellying of the buriall . 54. Senna therib. 94. Sennacherib Romaine . 94. Sepulcher of Iesus Christ . 53. Sepulchers insatiable . 52. White or paynted sepulchers . 52. To sing after the dead . 87. Singing of Masses . 41. Signification and definition of an heritiche . 60. Signification of belles . 71. 74. Signification of hell . 17. Signification of the deepe lake . 89. Signe of the crosse . 102 Sillogismus in Darif . 51 Simonse and Simoniackes . 53. Sinnes of Princes . 30. Sinnes of the simple people . 30. Sinnes of Princes and Cyronts . 29. Siticines . 66. Soppe in the throate . 51. A soule drawenfrom hell . 90 A soule taken in a net . 89. To what serueth the washings of soules 36. The spertell of the priests . 35. The spertell of Iesus Christ . 34. To sprinkle the sepulchers with water . 37. The spirite the author of purgatory 29. Stella Clericorum . 48. Stephen the sixth . 88. Stlgmates . 103. Stile of the holy Ghost . 18 Stix . 9● The Philosophicall stone . 55. Stiffocations . 36 Supper . 42. T. Tanners of mens skinnes . 65. Tannefat of the Priests . 64. Temple of God . 49. The cause of the temptacions of the elect . 1. Tempus . 31 The Poeticall Theologie . 24 Thuringie . 26. Three differences of sinnes & the diuersitie of the payues . 31 Tibicines . 66 Time of Gregory . 96 Time of pestilence . 36 The tyrant of tyrants and the pillers of the vsurers . 30 Torches and candells at the burialls . 33. Torches at the funeralls . 70. Troianus delyuered from hell . 9● . Tree of lyfe . 90. The true science and cloquence . 7. Tribute of the brine and of the stewes . 41 Tribute of victualls & of proces . 42 Tribute of get pence and whores . 42. Tribute of Moriages . 42. Tribute of players . 42 The papistical tribute of victualls . 42 Tribute of whoores . 43 Tributaries of Priests . 54. Trophonius denne . 27. V. Vealegon arder . 51. Valut Canis é Nylo Prouerve . 6 The vertue of the truth . 30. The vertue of the habite of S. Fraunces . 105. Vespiliones . 65 Voyatge of Saint Patrickes wells . 26. Vino rogum ne respargito . 38. Vse holy water at burialls . 101 Vow of Herode . 81 W. To be in the way . 35. Waters of Aegypt . 95. Water of tribulation . 94. Holy water . 34. Holy water vnprofitable . 88. To watch the dead . 104. The olde woemen that doe keepe the children that be borne dead . 44 Weeping of the Crocodile . 64. Whoredome . 81. Widow askng counsayle of the bells . 72. Canon witnesse . 24. Too wise or ouer wise . 13. Holy woode . 75. Idle worde . 9. What good workes God requireth for the dead . 100 Good works don to the dead by Booz . 100 Workes of mercy towards the dead . 97. What workes doe follow the dead . 85. What workes God requireth of vs and to what ende . 83 Workes of Angells and the elect . 84. Workes done for vs after we be dead . 85 Z. Zazel or Azazel a Diuell . 101. FINIS TABVLAE .

¶ THE SECOND PART of the Christian disputations .

By Maister Peter Viret .

Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Asshe next Sandwich .

MATHEW . XV. A. IX .

¶ In vaine they worship me teaching doctrines which are nothing but mens precepts .

MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR Ē VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206)

¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East .

THE SVMME OF THE third Dialogue .

IN this thirde Dialogue by reason that Eusebius mainteineth and vpholdeth that the Prayers and Sussrages for the dead , are of Gods ordinaunce , and of the institution of the auneient Church , it is intreated off very amply by Theophilus and Hillarius , and shewed out pointe by pointe of what originall and beginning that did first begin , & by whom it was begun , and hath bene augmented , as well amonge the Panims , as the Iewes and Christians : And what hath bene the customes and ceremonies of the one & the other , as well in their mourning and sorrowing for the dead , as in their Anniuersaries , Feastes & Obsequies for the dead . And bicause that there is great conformitie betweene the feastes dedicated vnto the dead , as well among the Panims as the papisticall Christians , we will declare euidently by conferring the one with the other , not onely the agreeing that these feastes haue togother , but also that which is amongest many other ceremonyes ioyned with them , and depending vpon them : The which haue bene borrowed of the Panims by the papisticall Christians , or at the least wife the imitation is so cleere and euident , that there is none but that he may easely iudge , that they proceeded all from one spirite . For to manifest and declare then thys same the better , and for to make it the playnelyer to bee seene , we will declare pointe by pointe the conformityes which are betweene the one and the other , touching the diuerse feastes and dayes dedicated vnto the deade , and touching the forbiddinge of marriage at certeine times . Afterwardes the conformitie of some feastes and Idols of the Panims and Papistes , and the feast of the candels and diuers purisications obserued of the one part and of the other : And the consecrations of Torches , Waxe , Waxcandles , Salt , holy Water , Fire , Asshes and many other suche diuers matters , by the which euory one may easely iudge , who hath ben the authour of the popish Ceremonies : and what difference there is betweene the auncient Panim Rome , and the Romish Church , such as it is at this present . We doe call this Dialogue , Anniuersaries , or yeares mindes , bicause that it maketh mention of many Ceremonies , which yearelye haue bene obserued among the superstitious and Idolaters about the dead , as of the straunge Gods.

¶ Now for to enter in the matter , Theophilus beginneth after this manner .

THE THIRD DIALOGVE which is called Anniuersaries or yeares mindes . THeophilus ,

I am very glad bicause that you are all come in so good time , & chiefly of Eusebius . For I greatly feared that he was offended with our talke and dysputations that we had yesterday . But as farre as I can perceiue , not with standing that he be very much rooted in his olde opinions & superstitions , yet neuer thelsse I know that he differeth much from a heape of obstinate and wilfull fooles , which haue no reason at all to defende their cause , nor know howe to take any other weapons then opinions and obstinations , for to fight against the truth , neither know how to finde any other meane to vanquish it and to reuenge themselues thereoff , then to hurt and wrong those which do propound it vnto them , when all other reason sayleth , and to shutte their eares against the same , to the ende they vnderstand it not .

Eusebius ,

I came the more willingly , bicause I thought my selfe better armed then I was yesterday , and that I can fight better to day , and to be reuenged & haue more aduauntage vpon you . For I was yesterdaye sodeinely taken and assayled , béeing vnprouided , neyther did I thincke that wée shoulde descende into such a fielde to fight : or otherwise I would haue come more armed , and better in order , for to defende my selfe and to fight against you .

Hillarius .

Wée dyd thincke no more of it then you , neyther were wée prepared nor armed for the same .

Eusebius .

I beléeue you well . Wherefore I doe knowe nowe by experience that the same whiche is sayde of all you is true . For it séemeth that you haue all the holye Scripture vppon your fingers endes , and that you haue neuer studyed in any other thing , of which I meruayled greatlye , in hearinge you speake , chyeslye Hillary , which is none of the greatest studyentes in the worlde , at the leastwise in the holy Scriptures . For hee hath alwayes loued better to carry a Virgile or an Ouid in his sléeue , then a Bible . And yet neuerthelesse hée is nowe a Doctour , as if he had passed Doctour in Sorbonne . As for Theophilus , I am not so much abashed : For all his lyfe time hée hath bene very deuoute , and hathe alwayes loued to reade in the Bible . I am sorry for nothing , but for this : that hée is become a Lutherian , and that hée is nowe so contrary vnto our Mother the holy Church : For I would neuer haue thought that he would haue so fought agaynst the good fayth , and the auncient lawe : But I trust , if God vouchsafe , that howsoeuer armed you bée , you shall not finde mée to daye so féeble as before , nor you shall not fight wyth mée so muche at your ease , although that you bée two against one , yea , almost all thrée . For Thomas is so variable , that I know not of which side hée will sticke too .

Thomas .

Yet I am not neuerthelesse a Lutherian , but thincke my selfe to bée as good a Christian as thou arte . Defende thy selfe valiauntly , and thou shalt sée if I bée contrary vnto thée , so that thou doe speake wyth reason . It is very true , that I cannot very much helpe and succour thée . For thou doest well knowe that I am an ignoraunt man , and that I haue not much studied neither in diuine nor yet humaine bookes , but I alwayes followed the good fayth as others dyd : sauing that I had sometime some doubt in my conscience , and yet more now then euer I had , séeing the differences which are in the Christianitie .

Hillarius .

But after that wée haue hearde Eusebius , wee will giue thée place to expounde it , as thou thy selfe hast required . And therfore friende Eusebius enter now & begin to fight , for as far as I can perceiue , thou comest not wyth false enseignes , nor without hauinge thy harneyes bright . But what booke is that thou holdest in thy hande ?

Eusebius .

It is Eccius .

Hillarius .

Eccius . When thou diddest name vnto mée that greate Captaine and maister Gunner of the papisticall armye , thou wouldest make mee to tremble and quake , if that I were fearefull : But I comfort my selfe againe in one thinge , that althoughe that it bee prouided wyth great Canons and Artillarye , Artillery of the Papists yet neuerthelesse it is euill prouided and furnished with pouder and shot , and there bée no pellets for to make any great breach , but accompt it as the Harquebuts , which are onely charged wyth paper , without hauinge either leade or stone wythin it , which giue greate strokes for to make women and little children afrayde . But they hurt no man , neither doe they make the men of warre afraide , nor it cannot pearce thorow their harneis .

Eusebius .

I will compell thée by and by to speake otherwyse , and I wyll make thée to féele it better then thou winnest .

Hillarius .

I staye vppon nothing , but that thou dooe put to the fire , for to burne vppe and consume that fire of Purgatorye , which wyll bée altogether put out and quenched , if thou doe not let it . In the meane time I wyll make my bulwarke and fortresse of Theophilus , for to receiue the first blowes , and I wyll not depart from the skirmish , but when I shall sée myne aduauntage . Neuerthelesse , I wyll yet serue thée in stéede of a Trumpet , for to make thoe to enter into battaile , and to gyue the Allarume vnto thine aduersary . Begin then to strike .

Eusebius .

Before wée enter any further in the combat , I woulde gladly , sith that you condenme the prayers and suffrages , whiche the Churche both make for those that bée deade , that you tell vnto mée , howe it is possible that the Church coulde haue erred so long time in that matter , and who hath bene the firste authoure and muentour of that errour and herefie ( syth that you so call it ) and after wardes I hope for my parte , that I wyll proue you the contrarye , by suche reasons and authorities , that you shall bée constrayned , to accuse your selues of errour , and heresie , and to retourne vnto the fayth of the holy Churche , and to confesse , that shee hath not taken the custome to praye for the deade of hir owne fantasie , wythout beeinge well assured that God hath commaunded it by his woord , and that Purgatory was well allowed by the same .

Theophilus .

If you had well considered and kepte in minde , that whiche we haue already spoken off , that is , of the custome whiche hath bene amongest the Panims in their funerall Drations and praysinges , and howe the auncient Church hath chaunged that manner of dooinge into a better vse . You shoulde easely knowe what hathe The beginning of prayers and suffrages for the dead . bene the beginninge of the commemoration of the prayers and suffrages for the dead , and that the custome of the auncient Fathers hath differed very muche , yea , and altogether contrary vnto that which is nowe in the Popish Church : But bycause that the same hath bene alreadye intreated off amongest vs amply inoughe , I wyll not reintreate nor rehearse it agayne . But for to satisfie thy question which thou hast nowe propounded , I wyll onely aduertise thée that those errours & abuses , and that superstitious remembraunce and full of blasphemyes , such which we do now sée to be practised about the dead , did take great force and were greatly multiplyed by Pope Pelagius , Pope Pelagius . who made an ordinaunce , much dyffering and contrary vnto the custome of his predecessors , and of the auncient Church : After whom succéeded Gregory the greate , Gregory 1. who hath not amended and corrected the abuses & errours , but hath styll nourished , augmented and increased them , and hath bene the cause of many Idolatries and superstitions , which haue brought great hurt and domage vnto Gods Church . And least that you shoulde thincke that I speak without reason & authoritie , iudge a little of that which Nauclerus witnesseth , that Gregory the third hath written vnto Boniface being Legate and Ambassadour into Nauclerus Gregory . 3 Boniface . Almayne , to wit whether that Christians maye offer for theire deade , which were truely Christians : And hath commaunded that the Priestes ought to make commemoration of them . Dne may very well presume by that aduertisement and commaundement that which Gregory made vnto Boniface , touching this matter , that it is not Masse for the dead . long agoe that the Masse hath begonne to bee a sacrifice for the dead , and that the institution is not so auncient as some men do thinke it to bee : at the least-wise that Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue not bene the author thereoff . For Boniface would not haue kept it secret in that time . Wherefore I giue more credite , vnto those whiche haue written that Pope Pelagius hath bene the author , inuentor and promoter of those suffrages and prayers , the which we sée dayly yet in vse amonge the Christians , and we call them the good déedes for the dead , then to any of those which haue followed the Apostles .

Eusebius .

If you had reade ouer and ruminated the auncient doctors of the Churche , you shall not finde that doctrine so newe , but you woulde speake otherwise and should know that the Churche hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Sainct Gregory were borne . Amd , de obitu Theodos . Wherefore then did Sainct Ambrose make mention , writing of the death of the Emperour Theodosius , of the first , seuenth , thirty and fourty day that the Churche did celebrate , making remembraunce of the dead , and for what cause they did the same ? of whome the wordes are written in the decrées after this manner . Bicause that Daies dedicated to the dead . 13. quest. 2. cap Quta . some haue vsed to obserue the thirde caye , other some the seuenth , and others the thirty in the office of the dead . Let vs consider what thing that lesson in the scripture teacheth vs . It saith : After that Iacob was dead , Ioseph commaunded Genes. 58. a. 3 his seruants that they should bury him : And the The buriall & mourning for lacob . children of Israel buried him and the forty dayes beeing accomplished , for so were the daies of the burial compted & they lamented seuen dayes . We ought to follow that solemnitie , the wh●che the holy scripture describeth vnto vs It is also written after this manner in Deuteronomium . Deut. 34. c. 8 Mourning for Moses . that the children of Israel lamented Moses , and did wepe thirty dayes , and then the mourning was ended , heth those two obseruations haue then authoritie , by the which the necessary office of piety and humanity is accomplished . Doe you not sée here plainely by the words of Sainct Ambrose , that already in his time the Churche did the office and commemoration of the dead , and did celebrate in their memory certaine dayes , and yet the auncients haue not instituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters , as you say and affirme , but after that imitation of the auncient Patriarkes and Prophets and of the people of God ?

Theophilus .

I am abashed , I knowe not whether I A●swer to the obiection . shall speake it of the ignorance & mallice of your doctors . For if they vnderstande that Saincte Ambrose hathe allowed that which they at this day do vphold and maintaine , they do greatly erre , and shewe themselues to be verye ignoraunt . Also if they vnderstand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked , to peruerte and marre the sence of the same , for to maintaine their abuses , and alwayes the more to kéepe the poore people in errour . Firste , they well perceiue and sée that Sainct Ambrose maketh no mention , neither of Purgatory , Lamenting and sorrowing for , the dead . nor of Masse for the dead , and that that place cannot serue but for the sorrow that men take for the dead . For yet in that time , the Churche approched néerer vnto the puritie of the primatiue Churche , and was not so muche corrupted , as she hath bene afterwards , sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the greate . This then that he maketh mention of the first , seuenth , thirty , and forty daye , in his booke and sermon that hée made of the death and buriall of Theodosius , is not set forth by him , for to nourishe and holde the pepole in the supersticions of the Panyms , as you doe , but rather to draw them backe from it , and for to induce and leave the Christians vnto more greater honesty and modestye , to the sorrowe that they ought to haue for the dead . For that cause did he propound and set foorth the example of the Israelites , not that he woulde thereby make a law vnto the Christian people , that they shoulde mourne , seuen , thyrty , nor forty dayes , bicause that the Israelites haue mourned so many dayes for lacob , Moses , Aaron and Marie their sister , & yet lesse for to cause Masses to be said , and to banket and make the priests broken , as they do Numeri. 10. a. 1. dayly , at the Portuaries and Anniuersaries . For then he should teache the Christian people to playe the Iewes , The Christian lybertie . and sinne against the Christian liberty , if hee woulde of all the examples of the Scripture , and of the thinges done by the Israelites , draw out & take lawes and statutes , for to commaunde them vnto the Christian people as necessarie and ordeyned of God . For first of all God neuer hath defined , nor determined by his lawe , certaine dayes , nor yet to lament and mourne for the dead , nor for to make any commemoration of them , as it appeareth very well , by the examples afore alledged . For the Israelites themselues haue not kept a certaine number of dayes at the mourninge of Iacob , Moses , Aaron and of Marie . For they did kéepe Iacob in Genes. 50. a. 3 Aegypt fortie dayes , after that hee was enbaumed : and the Aegyptians bewept him Ixx , dayes . He was carried into Hebron : afterwards his sonnes bewept him seuen dayes in Atad . But Moses , Aaron and Marie their Deut 34. c. ● Numerl . 20. 2 , 1. sister were beewept euerye one of them thirty dayes . Thou doest see alreadie here , that they are not very superstitious in the dayes , and that some time they haue vsed The ordinary time for the mourning of the Israelites . Eccle. 22. b. 13 eyther more or lesse . It should séeme that their ordiuary was but for seuen dayes . For it is written : Seuen dayes do men mourne for him that is dead , but the lamentation ouer the vnwise shoulde endure all the dayes of their life . But when it is for some noble personne , as for a Prince or a Prophet , or anye man of great estimation , and renome , they woulde of custome prolonge theyr mournynges vntyll thyrtie dayes . But they woulde not wyliyngly passe béeyond it as wée sée here in these three examples of Moses . Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the The translation of 〈◊〉 in the 〈◊〉 Canaan . people of Israel , asmuche and more then anye other euer were . The mourning of Iacob was a little more longer , bycause he was carried to be buryed a great way , and that they carried him from the land of Aegypt into the land The holynesse of the lande . of Canaan : not that they esteemed the land of Canaan more holy then that of Aegypt , as touching his nature , or that The witnesse of the faith of the Patriarches it had any more vertue , for the health of the body or soule of him that was buryed there , as the superstitious Christians and poore ignorant do iudge of the earth in the churchyarde , bicause that it was blessed and halowed by their Bishops and Priests . But they did that , for to witnes in Act. ● . 3 ● Heb. 11. b. 8 the article of the dead , the hope that they had in the promise made vnto Abraham of that lande , and for to confirme their successors in the same , to the ende they shoulde The bying of the fielde of Ephron . Genes. 23. d. ●S . be certaine & assured that they should possesse it , although that they neuer receauid one foote during their life , except that possession which Abraham bought for to make a burial place for him , his wife and all his family . This he did , that it should bee a witnes vnto all his successors , that they should be heires of that lande of which he hath The translation of the bones of Iacob . Genes. 50. d. 25 alreadye taken possession . For that same cause also , Iacob commaunded and ordayned in his testament , that his body should not be buried in Aegypt , but that it shoulde be carried into the land of Canaan , in the sepulcher of hys fathers . And Ioseph his sonne following that example hath also commaunded the children of Israell , to heepe his bones , vntill they enter into that lande ? not for to made reliches of them , and to enclose them in golde or siluer for to worship them , al the while that they shal be in Aegypt , The holynesse of the lande of Canaan . or in the lande of Canaan , after that they shal bée aryued in the same , but for to bury them there : not for the opinion that hee had of the worthynesse of his sepulture , or of the holynes of the lande . For then it was inhabited of the Panyms & Insidels , o● the Canaas , Amorrians , & others like whiche were so abbominable , bicause of theire erecrable crymes , that God could , not suffer them . but hath exterminated , dryuen away and destroyed them by his iust Denl . S. a ● iudgement , for to giue that land as an heritage vnto his people . But Ioseph , although that hee dyed in Aegypt woulde first witnes , that he beléeued perfectly in the promise of God . And for more greater probation of his faith , hath left vnto them that witnes of the same , for to assure them that they shoulde enter there once , sith that hee woulde not bee buried , vntill suche time as they were come thyther , for to inherite the promised land . That was almost such a witnes , as that of Ieremie , in bying the field Iere. 31. 8. 44 The bying of I cremy of his cousin , which was in the lande of Iuda : willing thereby to declare and shewe foorthe , that the people then were in captiuitie , and almost all of them did dispaire neuer to returne into their land ( notwithstanding that the Lord had promised vnto them the contrary ) which was vnto him certaine & sure of the promise of the Lorde . Wherefore he would giue vnto them a good hope of their returning , promised chiefely by Esay long time before the captiuitie , and by Ieremy and Ezechiell prophecying at the time that the captiuitie approched , and during the same : therefore did he buy that field and that possession , for to testifie by that buying , that hee had a good hope of his returne , and that he was assured by the word of God , what soeuer infidelitie was in the people : or otherwise hee had bene a foole and not well aduised , to put his money in hazarde to be loste , and himselfe to be mocked , and accomted for a lyer & a false prophet . Paking then that buying to the intent , it was vnto him as a sacrament , euen as the buriall of Ioseph deferred vntill the entring vnto the lande of Canaan , the whiche he woulde not deferre for any thing what soeuer it be , for to be depriued from the buriall so long time , and from the honoure whiche is due vnto the body , according to the ordinance of God , the whiche hée would by no meanes resist . Genes. 33. d. 19

Thomas .

You speake of many things , but how doe I know whether the same ought to bee vnderstanded after that sort as you expound it .

Theophilus .

If thou doubt of my exposition , reade the xi . Chapter of Sainct Pauls Cpistles vnto the Hebrewes , Hebrt . 11. a 1. and thou shalt sée whether the Apostle doth not set thée in the way for to come vnto the intelligence and interpretation .

Eusebius .

But you shew not the cause , wherefore they obserued certaine daies for to finish their funerals & mournings .

Theophilus .

I haue alreadie answered thée , that they The cause of the dayes appoynted for moarning . did not the same for any superstition that they had to the number as the Panyms . For the Patriarches & Prephets were not so much of the sect of Pithagoras , nor such great obseruers of the numbers , as the Papisticall doctors , and Durand . in ratio . diui. off . lib. 7. Rub. de off . mor namely Durand , who yelding the reason wherefore the Christians keepe certaine daies dedicated to the commemoration of the dead , declareth the misteries contayned in the number of them , and hath written after this manner . Note that some celebrate the memory of the dead Ternarij . Septena ly Numerl . 19b . 11. the thyrde day , for to represent the buriall and resurrection of Iosus Christe , or in the honoure of the Trinity . Others cause Masses to be songe the seuenth day , or seuen dayes continually . Afterwardes they proue that the same is taken of that place which is written in the booke of Nombers : that he whiche shall touche the body of a dead man , shal be defiled and vncleane seuen dayes . Is not the The philosophy of Pithagoras The cause of the moarning of the Israelises . same very fitte for to proue the seuen dayes feaste of the Priestes ? I do omitte a thousande other dreames , which are more mad , that one cannot belééue them . Hée practiseth a Philosophy and a Theology likewise vppon the ninth , thirde and fourth and the day of the yeares minde , to which he maketh those numbers better to agrée , then of ware , and better then euer Pithegoras did . For his Philosophy had more reason and doctrine . But that which the Israelites did , I thinke that the same was none otherwise , but for an honesty and cluditie whiche ought to be among the people of God . For they had no expresse law , nor commaundement proper for the same , & the should make them to be subiect vnto them And although they had a commaundement , as they haue of their other ceremonialand ciuile laws , we should not be yet neuerthelesse therfore Liberty of the Gospell . bounde , no more then we he to them , but should abide in the libertie in the whiche Iesus Christ hath called vs . Now if we be deliuered from the subiection of ceremonies & lawes which God himself hath expessely commaunded , by a more stronger reason ought we to be exempted , & to abide & continue in our liberty , in the that hath bene lest in liberty vnto the people , which was yet vnder the seruitude & bondage of the law . Wherfore I thinke the the Israelites did kéepe that custome among them , for the selfe same cause that Ioseph al , ledged speaking of Moses : De hath also prouided in the funeralles Ieseph againste Appion . li. 2 The law for the ludaieall funeralls . of the dead , to that ende that men do not celebrate sumpteous obsequies & burtals , & that men do not bestow greate & costly buildings of sepuleres , but hath commaunded , the the household seruants of him which should be dead , should administer the necessarie things , for to carry the dead to the graue . He hath also ordeined , as a lawful thing that all those the be a liue should assemble themselues together , when the any person should be dead , & should mourne & lament ouer him . He hath also commaunded , the the domesticall & those of his house should be purified after that burying . Although that we read not all these words of Ioseph , so expressed & placed in the bookes of Moses , yet neuerthelesse Ioseph , which was himself a Iew , & a man of great knowledge . & well séene in the customes & Iudaical things , was not ignorant of the manner of their burials & funerals , & the causes wherfore they did all those things . He maketh The water of separation consecrated with the asshes of a young Heifer , Numeri. 19. c. 11 no mention , no more then Moses , the one should not make sacrifice nor offring for the health and saluation of the dead , nor that one shoulde sprinkle it with holy water , and with the consecrated water that they dyd héepe mingled with the asshes of a younge Heyfer , for the purification of that lyuing , not of the dead , but witnesseth only , that the domestical or those of that house which wer assisting & helping at that funerals & burials , or touched the body sh●●ld be purified , by the ceremonyes ordeined of God , principally by that consecrated water , with that asshes of an Heyfer the Purification af , +ter the funerals . Hebr 9. d. 13 which was a figure as witnesseth the Apostle , of the bloud of Iesus Christ , by which we are purified : who hath done that whiche the water and the asshes of the Heyfer , could not do . Wherefore we haue no more néede of suche ceremonyes , sith that they are accomplished and fulfilled by Iesus Christ : And yet much lesse of other new , inuented by mans presumption . That then which the Israelites used certaine ceremonies and mournings about the dead , had two respectes . The first was , to the ende that the people of God should not bee like unto the barbarous and heathen people , as those of whom we haue already spoken off , whiche did make lesse account of the bodies of that dead men , yea of theire owne parents and friendes , then of the carcases of brute beasts . Agame , euen as the Lord would that his people should be farre from such inhumanity and The means that we must keepe in mourning & at the funeralls , and the v. ces of the Panims . barbarousnes , so would hee prouide on the other side , for another greate vice , which raigned amongst the Panims , who did to much excéede in sorowing and mourning , in ceremonies , superstitions , Idolatries , and with to greate expenses about their dead and funerals . Besides all this Barue 6. c 30. Leult . 1. & 21. Heodo . in Enterpe . 3. Reg 18. e. 28 they did many things not seemely to men . For some of them did rounde and poll their heades , beards & heares , the mourning , as Herodotus witnesseth of that Aegyptians . There were also which did hurte and pricke themselues with lancets , and made the bloud to come forth of Theod. in Leui ticum , 19. Apul. asinl . aur lt. 1 1. Cice Tusc. q. 3. Leuit. 21. a. 3. their bodies , in the honoure of the dead , & for to witnesse their dolor , after the same sort as the Pricsts of Baal did in praying to their God Baal . And the Priestes of Cyble in lyke manner , who in that pointe followed them . They did also make markes in theyr fleshe , with greate superstition the whiche thinges the Lord did forbid his people , namely in Leuiticus . And therefore those good patriarches and prophets , who were prudent and wise , and guyded thorowe the spirite of God , haue found a good meanes to let and stoppe those vices and excesse which they did commit aswell on the one side as on the other , amongst the Panyms . For if the Panims themselues haue regarded that , and haue néede lawes and statutes , for to correct the vndecent things that was there commytted : And the pompe and foolysti cost , that men bestowed about such banities , we must not be abashed , if the people of God , who ought to be the rule and moderation of all others haue so well prouided for the same , for to kéep a meane in all things . For it is not possible that man , how spirituall soeuer he be , can rob or take from man , all humayne aflection , but that there abydeth alwayes a meruaylous desire in his heart , of the person absent whom he loued , especially when thorowe death it is seperated from him . Sith then that one cannot The lymitte of humain affection . plucke away altogether that affection from mans heart , he must at the lcastwise set some lymitte ; to the ende that he excede not measure , as the Panims did . For so long as the affection is too great , insomuch that it draweth vs from God , and maketh vs to staye more vnto the creatures then is néedefull , it cannot please God . And therefore euen as the Lord leaueth vs to be man , and suffereth our humayne affections , which haue some agreeing with his nature , and are the seede and prickes of vertues , so will he not suffer them to flowe ouer , or aryse aboue the lymittes of reason and honestie , as we haue already touched in another place . The same then that the The time prescribed for the mourning Heorewes and Israelites had some certayne number of dayes , for to mourne and lament their parents and friends that were dead , was not for to restrayne euery one generally and perticularly to lament and mourne one so many dayes , without adding or dimimshing any , as if the number of the dayes were necessary ; or that it conteineth any relygion and holynesse in it : but to the ende that those which should mourne and lamont , if one coulde not kéepe them from it altogether , without doyng greate biolence to their affections , at the leastwise , they should not passe that lymit and time , which was bsed and prescribed , and which was long inough and sufficient , for to satisfie their heart and to mitigate their sorrow and heauinesse .

Wherefore I doubt not but that Saynt Ambrose hadde The infention and meaning of S. Ambrose . regard unto that honostie and modestie , not for to induce the christian people unto Iewishnes , but to follow rather the erample of the holy Patriarches and Prophets , then of the Panims . As we may manifestly iudge by his own wordes , without seekinge the glose and interprctation any further . For first of al he erhorted not that people to play vnto god for the soule of Theodosius , but witnesseth euidétly , the he accompteth & holdeth him to be saued , & affirmeth many times the his soule is at rest , in lyght & felicitie with Iesus Christ his Lord. Also he teacheth not the people to in uocate & pray vnto him , not withstanding the he holdeth him as a saint in the kingdom of god : but admontsheth to pay vnto the childre , the which they do owe vnto the father , saying : they owe him more after he is dead , then when he was liuing , After wards declareth vnto them the meanes how thei ought to acquite & order themselues towards their good Prince , after his death : that is , in commending his young children whom he hath lefte to be heires of the Cmpire , and that they declare towards them the fidelytie , faith , loyaltie , and loue that they had towards their father . It is sufficiently declared the ther is no meane more proper , nor any good déedes more agréeable nor more profitable for the dead , then to haue in commendacion and prayse their successours , children and friendes . On the other side , hée comforteth the children , and chiefely goeth aboute to niltigate the doloure and sorrow of Honorius , bicause that it was not lawfull for him to accompanye the relyckes , that is to saye , the other parte of the body of his father , which was carryed to bée buryed vnto Constantinople , as they accustomed to doe with the bodyes of great Princes . Wherein it appeareth wherevnto Sayncte Ambrose pretended . For leste vs not thinke that he hath bene of an other mynde and opinion then the other Doctors , which haue written both in his time & before him . And to this ende that you should the better knowe that I speake not so wythout reason , gyue eare and marlie what other Doctors sayes , which is contayned in the Decrées themselues , and adioyned immediately after that which yon declared of Saynt Ambrose , the which wyll serue vs for the declaration of the same , and consormation of nsy worbes . First you haue Saynt Gyprian , who Cyprian . 13. ● . 2. Quam preposte rum . Mourning vndecent for Christians . declareth vnto the Christians that they oughte not to bee sorrowfull and sadde , neyther for their death nor yet for that of others , saying : Is it not a strainge and a peruerse thing , to require that Gods wyll be done , and that we doe not obey the same , when he calleth vs out of this world , but doe repugne and resist it , and as peruerso and rebellyous seruaunts wée are brought before our Lorde with sorow and mourning , and béeing colistrayned thorow the bonde of necessitie , not willyngly and with a good hearte . And we woulde bée honoured with heauenly rewardes by him , vnto whome wée doe come maugre our selues . And how many times is it reuealed vnto me , and commaunded of GOD , that I doe protest dayly and preath openly , that we ought not to lament and mourne for our bretheren which are called and delyuered from this worlde by the Lorde , sith that we know that they are not lost , but are onely sent before , going for to ouer goe vs , euen as those doe , who doe walke and swimme .

Vnto this also agreeth Saynt Iohn Chrisostome , who Chriso ad pepu Hom. 69. & 70 Item in Iohn c. 11. ad Hebr ca. 2. Hom. 4 in many places hath rebuked and coereted the immoderate mourninge of the Christians , saying amonge other thinges , I doe not forbid that we should not mourne for those which are departed out of this worlde , Lette vs lament and bewayle them , but not undecently and unhonestly : not in tearing our haires , uncouering of our armes , cutting our eyes , not in wearyng blacke gownes , but onely in our hearte , sheading foorth inwardely bytter teares . Also lice doth cleerelye shewe , that to lament Chrisosto . in Erst . ad Hebr. 13 q. 2. vbichnq3 Psa. 24. a. 1 and mourne for the deade , proceeded but of wealtenesse and for wante of fayth , saying : In whatsoeuer place wée bee buryed in , the earthe is the Lords and all things that therem is . That that hée oughte to doe doth : But to lament , mourne and wéepe for those which are departed out of this lyfe , commeth of weaknesse and for want of heart and courage . And it must not be vnderstanded that it procéedeth from any other thing , then of a despayre of the resurrection to come . Therefore the Apostle spade not simply , we would not 1. Thessa . 4. c. 1● . haue you ignoraunt , concerning them that are fallen a sléepe that ye sorrow not , but he addeth moreouer , as other doe which haue no hope . It is not then forbidden vs to mourne and bewayle the deade , through a compassion and affection of pietie and a regarde of humanitie , as wée doe reade , that some Saynts and holy men , haue bewailed ( after Gods lawe ) . the funeralls of others . Therefore Anastacius in the same place hath sayd . Those which know Anasta . 13. ● . 2 habent . not nor looke for any other life , & haue no trust the from this world there is a place for to go vnto a better estate , haue peraduenture iust excuse of their long griefe and sorrowe : But we which doe beléeue and teach the same , ought not to be sorry for those which dye , to the ende , that the same which towards other hath appearaunce of pietie and compassion be in the greater fault . For that is a kinde of distrust , agaynst that that euery one doth preach . And immediately after is alleadged the example of Iesus Christ , the example of Christ . Iohn . 11. c. 13. who bewailed not the death of Lazarus , but bewailed him when he would rayse him agayne , for to retourne vnto the miseryes of this world .

Hillarius ,

Certeynly if we did well consider the euills which are in this miserable world , and the fragilytic and misery of mans nature , and if we had true sayth to the Gospell of Iesus Christ , and true hope of our resurrection , and of the eternall lyfe , we shoulde haue more occasion to follow the custome of the Thracians , then of other Danims , and for a more iust occasion , The custome of the Thracias herodet in Paler . Max. li. 2. ca. 1 For if they , which had not a certeyne hope , nor assurance that there is an other lyfe then this héere , dyd bury their friends that were dead with ioy & gladnes , saying that they wer bery glad that thei were deliuered from the euils and wickednesse of of this lyfe : And on the contrary , did wéepe and lament at the birth of their children , lamenting them bicause of the euills to the which they did : n●● comminge into this worlde : Haue not wée more 〈◊〉 cause to reioyce , when that the Lord calleth us our friendes , and draweth them from that darke prison , for to lodge them in his celestiall Places ? And to desire with the holy philip . l. d. 25. Apostle to be dissouled so ? to be with Christ ? If we wil not followe the doctrine and examples of the holy Scriptures , at the leastwise let vs not doe worse then the Panims . And if we will follow them , let vs follow the most reasonable , and not the most maddest . those of Mirsellea , in the time that they were yet Panims , we a great deale more modest and sober , and lesse supersticious and Idolaters in their burialls , and about their dead , then those are now at this present time which doe follow the papisticall doctrine . For the auncient massilians did bury their dead The auncient custome of the Massilians . Val. Max. li. 2 cap. 1. without great sorrow and lamentation . The sorrow and mourning of their furenalls continued but one day , without adding too any other ceremony , but a domestical sacrifice , and in making a banket , not for the Priests , but for their parents and friends . But now I warrant you that the Priests will not acquite them for the price . Beholde what they haue gained with the papistical doctrine : which hath lesse reason , then the costomes of their auncient predecessors , although that they were Idolaters . Wherefore it should séeme vnto them yet more honest , & a great deale more profitable , to bring again in vse their auncient fashions & maners , then to follow the papistical maners . But amongst others they can not finde better , nor more necessary to all Christians , then that which they had of late , to shut the gates of their towne agaynst all Hipocrites , Cagots Stongeth ful he lyes vnder co. 1 lour of religion Caphards , & Seducers , who vnder the shadow & tytle of holy Religion would lyue idelly , and eate and deuoure other mens substaunce without doing any thing . Their gate was not opened to such gluttons & belly gods , & they would not admit any Religion & new supersticion . If the Christians had done so , the world not haue ben so spoyled and deuoured by the Priestes , Poonkes and caphards . But for to returne vnto mourning : In the manner also Seneca hath written , that the auncient Romaynes The custome of the Romaines . Senec. epist. 75. haue not pressed , nor determined any certeyne time vnto for to weepe and lament , bicause it hath no honestie . for as the himselfe witnesseth , a wise man doth not afflict The office of a wise man . nor lament himselfe too much , when he looseth his children or his friends , but beareth their death with such a stomack and heart , as he would doe his owne . For that cause amongst others was Anaxagoras praysed , who without any Cice. Tusc. 9. li. 1. trouble to himselfe , answered vnto him which brought him tidings of the deathe of his sonnes : Thou tellest me of no new thing , nor a thing but that I ahue longe looked for it : For I knew very well that he whom I engendred was mortall .

Thomas .

When I doe heare spoken of the constancie and modestie , that the Panims haue shewed in the death both of them and of their friendes , I am greately ashamed of vs christians , who haue so great feare , and doe make such noyse , and torment our selues after the dead .

Hillairus .

Thereby we declare , that we are very The custome of : the 1. yeians . Val. Max. li. 2. ca. 1. ignoraunt and effeminated . And therefore the Lycians did apparayle them with womwnes apparell , when they did mourne and lament , to the ende that they should bée moued thorow that deformitie of apparell , and thereby constrayned to cast downe all that foolish sorrow . Declaring by the same , that they accompted it folly to lament Plut. in Lycur . The custome of the Lacedemetis . and wéepe . For that cause Lycurgus did not permit to the Lacedemonians , but eleuen dayes to mourne and lament in : and after at the twelfe day , they must cast it downe , after that they had made a sacrifice vnto Ceres . Uppon that matter ahth Plutarch written , that all things not accustomed nor vsed were applyed vnto those that dyd lament and mourne . And therefore the men went foorth openly , The manner & fashion 〈…〉 . 1. C ●● . 11 a 5. hauing their heads couered . the woemen vncouered and shorne , or altogether polde , agaynst the order of nature , that being ashamed of such desormitie , they should be constrayned she rather to moderate themselues , and the better to banqutsh and ouercome their affections . And whereas the Romaines prescribed a yeare full out The law of the Romaynes of the mourning of the widowees vnto the woemen for to mourne , was not for to compell them to lament and mourne so long time , but to moderate and correct them , to the ende they exceeded not measure . And therefore the widowes did cary the signes of sorrowfulnesse , being apparayled with blacke , and wearing white kerchiefes vppon their heades , as the Papists doe at this Pluta . in quest day . The which thinges ouid hath comprised in a fewe bearses , speaking of the yeare ordayned by Romulus , after this manner .

When funeralls were once fulfilde ouid . Fast . 1 the wise with ruthfull cheere , His husbands death dyd wayle the want , the space of one whole yeere .

And the Poet Statius sayth also .

The woemen weare in their attire , Statius . the haue of blacke and white : To represent the difference , betwixt the day and night .

And it was not lawfull for them to marry , before that those tenne moneths were expired , except the had a dispensation of the Senate and Counsell , as wée haue vsed to take of the people . For Numa Pompilius of the same made The laww of Numa for the mariage of Widowes . plut. in Vita Numa Anto. Fan. in Fast . 1 a law , the which did condempne the widow , which maried before that the terme and lawfull tyme was accomplished , to sacrifice a Cow with calfe . Not that he estéemed that it was a sinne worthy of great punishment , in marrying hir before that terme , but had regarde to the honestye , for two causes . The first was , bicause that it was not honest for the woeman but very much contrarye vnto the shamefastnesse and naturall modestye , which oughte to be in hir , to marye agayne so soone , and before that the féete of hir first husband , ( as the common Prouerbe is ) be throughly colde . The other cause is for to conserue and kéepe the lynage and generations , without minglyng them and destroying the séedes . For it may so chaunce , that the woman shal be with chilce by hir first husbande and she shall not know it so soone . Neuerthelesse Disponsation of mariage . Antbony Octauian . when there is any person of great callyng the Senate and Counsell would dispense with him , as it appeareth at the maryages of Anthony and Octauia , who by the authoritie of the same were allowed , notwithstanding that Octauia did mourne for C. Marcellus .

Theophilus .

It is most certeine , that it lyeth not in mans C. Marcellus power to make a law which is repugnaunt and agaynst that which the Lorde hath sayde by his Apostle . Hée that what the lawes ought to be of mariage . 1. Cor. 7. b. 9 cannot abstaine let him mary , to the ende that none do put any snare about the necke of any man , & put his soule in daunger . Therefore sayth he , it is better to mary then to burne . For that cause let vs not make a law , for to bynde any man , and to take from him his libertie in such things , but let vs leaue y● vnto euery ones discression , following the customs most allowable . Yet neuertheles it is requisite , whatsoeuer infirmitie of the flesh that one can alleadge , that one haue alwayes reason of honestie and Christian modestie . For that cause friende Eusebius haue wée propounded vnto thée so many examples and sentences , both of the holy scriptures & of auncient Doctors , and also of the Panims , to that ende that thou maist the more cléerely know what hath bene the custome of the auncient Israelites and of the Panims , and of the first Christians also : what hath bene their mourning , what daies they haue dedicated for the same , & for the dead : and for what cause , and how the auncient Doctors haue written , and to what intent : and how much the Christian religion hath degenerated from his auncient puritie , insomuch that it is not worthy to compare them in such things , I say not vnto the auncient Iewes , but vnto the Panims themselues which haue had some iudgement & honestie . And yet neuerthelesse S. Hierome doth desire that the christians should be yet more sober S. Hierome . Tomb. 6. The mourning of the auncient Isr . Ielytes . in such things then the auncient Israelites , whose maner of doing he praysed not greatly , which they haue vsed towards the dead : But he excuseth them bicause that they had not yet receyued so amply the lyght and knowledge , nor the accomplything of the promises of God so amply & so excellently as we . Wherefore he would that we should be a great deale more moderate , and that we should declare more lyuely the hope that we haue of the resurrection .

But if we can doe no better nor be more perfect then they , let vs not be at the least more imperfect , and lette vs not doe worse , after the manner of the Papists who are mroe to be rebuked in those things , then any people that euer was vppon the earth . Wherefore it were better ( friende Eusebius , ) that we should reduce our selues to the imitacion of the Apostolicall Church , then to continue alwayes in our folly and madnesse , vnder the colour of a word or two that we finde eyther in Ambrose , or in some other auncient doctor for want of well vnderstanding them .

And it shal be a great deale more conuenient and meeter Example of Dauid . 2. Reg. 12. d. 15. for vs to follow the example of Dauid , who mourned & lamented for his childe all the while that he was sicke , and whilest that he was yet alyue , & not after that hée was dead . For which all those of his house were much abashed . For whilest that the childe was yet sicke , and that he had some hope of lyfe , he watched , fasted and prayed , making request vnto God for the childe , and dyd lye flat on the earth , and during the space of seuen dayes all those of his house , no not his auncients and counsellers could not make him to lye on a bed , nor to aryse vp from the earth , nor to eate nor drinke with them , vntyll such tyme he vnderstoode that the childe was dead , the which thing none of his seruaunts durst tell him off , thinking that he would haue bene mernaylously sadde and pensise , after that hée should bée aduertised of his deathe , sith that all the time of his sickenesse whilest that there was yet some hope of lyfe , he alwayes wepte and lamented . But it happened cleane contrarye . For as soone as hée knewe for a certeynetie that the childe was dead , he arose from the earth , and washed and anoynted himselfe , and chaunged his apparell , and went into the house of the Lord , and prayed , and after came to his own house , and bad that they should set meate before him and he did eate : And made greater cheere then before , whereoff his seruaunts were much abashed , and asked him what is this that thou hast done ? vnto whom he aunswered : while the childe was a lyue , I fasted and wepte . For I thus thought : who can tell whether God will haue mercy on me , that the childe may lyue ? But now séeing it is dead , wherefore should I fast ? Can I bring him agayne any more ? I shall goe to him , but hée shall not come agayne to me . Dauid teacheth Mourning for the lyuing and sicke . vs a good lesson , and learneth vs to praye the one for the other , while wée bée in this lyfe , and to make prayers vnto God , and to lament and mourne for our bretheren and neighbours , whilest they are alyue , whether they be in health or sicke , prosperitie or aduersitie , and not after they be dead . For whilst that they be sicke , we ought to pray for them , that it would please God to pardon their sinnes , and ours : to giue vnto them health , and to suffer them a while to be with vs , and comfort vs , & to serue moreouer vnto his church , if he know that the same is most expedient for the glory of his name , and our profite . For whilest that man is sicke , we know not certeynly , what God meaneth to bee with him . We know very well that his wil cannot be but good , & that he wil dispose all things to the best : But we cannot know perticulerly , wythout a singuler reuelation , whether that it be better that the sick person doe lyue or dye , both for him and for vs . Wherefore we ought to pray and weepe for him whilest that we can ayde and helpe him , and that he is yet alyue with vs , in the which we haue place to repent . & to obteyn pardon for our sinnes : and we ought chiesly to bewayle the poore 〈…〉 sinners , whom we see to goe to perdition , as Samuel bewept Saul séeing him forsaken of God : And Sainct Paule the Corinthians , whom he law to be deteyned and kept in 1. Reg. 15. s. 26 2. Cor. 12. g. 21 Hie●in comment in Mat. 5. c. 11. sinnes , if it would please God to haue mercy vpon them . But sith that God hath once declared vnto vs his will , we must holde our selues vnto the same , and to take no more care for those whome God hath called vnto himselfe from among vs , but we ought onely to aduise and sludie how we should dispose and order our selues for to follow them , after the example of Dauid . Wherevnto agreeth very wel the doctrine of Daynct Iames , who admonusheth the faithfull The visitacion of the sicke Iam. 5. c. 14. if any of them bee diseased to call vnto them the true Priests of the Gospell and Elders of the congregation , for to comfort them with the worde of God , and for to praye for them , that they may haue the forgiuenes of their sinnes , and to comfort and procure all that they can for the health of their bodyes and soules , and for their health , and thorow prayers and oyntments and other lyke things , which God hath giuen vnto the primitiue Church , the which hath receyued The gilte do miracles in the primitiue church . A noynting with oyle . Marc. 6. b. 13 the gyfte to doe miracles , and in the which the Apostles did miraculously heale the diseased . Anoynting them with oyle , not after the manner as the Papisticall Priestes doe , which doe anoynt the diseased , not thorow the hope that they haue to heale them . For if they did thinke that they should heale them , they would not anoynt them .

Hillarius .

They would not doe so . For they should loose much nor they should haue so many fatte hydes .

Theophilus .

For that same cause they call that vnction extreme , and the last sacrament : And they giue it not for Extreme vncsion the health of the body nor for to heale the diseased , as the Apostles did , nor to that intent as Saint Iames hath written , but did giue it for the health of the soule , as thoughe their holy oyle could penetrate in the same , and that the haly Ghost and forgiuenesse of sinnes wertied vnto the oyle . I know not whereto the vnction can serue for the poore diseased , such as the do vse , sith that thei haue no promises of god . & that the gift of miracles is not giuen vnto them as vnto the Apostles , & to that primitiue church : & they do none other thing but read the Psalter & babble it in a strange language vnto the sicke person , of which he receiueth no instruction , nor any The saying of the Psalter . The vse of extreme vnction . The Apes of the Apost● 3. consolation at all .

Hillarius .

If thou know not wherto that vnction serueth , I will tell thée . First , that is a witnesse for to proue that in that same they are the Apes of the Apostles , for to counterfet their workes and myracles , as they counterfetted those of Iesus Christ in the Baptisine of young children . Afterward it serueth vnto the diseased , for to make them hope to be healed , as the comming of the hangman vnto the théeues , when they doe sée him .

For they know right wel that he is the messenger of death So when the poore patients séeing the Priestes comming with their Creame bores , Dyle and Drogues , they may well thinke that men accompt them for deade , and their time is come . For such Phisitians haue not accustomed to come , nor to bring their Triacle , but at the very houre that the sicke person is abandoned and forsaken of other Phisitians . They may iudge that their hangman is come , who careth nor for the soule , but requireth onely the body and the spoylyng thereoff .

Theophilus .

There is nothing truer . Wherefore they cannot alledge Saint Iames for their defence , nor also the auncient doctors whom they would take for bucklers for al their matters . They make a great accompt of Denis , who hath written the celestiall The authour of the celestial ●● . d ecclesiasticall Hieratch12 Act. 17. eccle hist. li. ● . ca. 4. li. 4. ca. 21. 22. 23 Eccle bier . ● 7 Denis . Areopagite . and ecclesiasticall Hierarchies , saying that that is Saynct Denis of Athens , who was conuerted by the preaching of Saynt Paul , which is not lyke to be true . For the stile of those bookes , sinelleth not lyke vnto that of the Apostles , nor of their tyme . Furthermore Eusebius in his ecclesiasticall history maketh mention so dilygently of the bookes of Denis Bishoppe of Corinth , and neuer maketh any mention of those of Denis Areopagite . Wherefore it is most lykest to be true , that he hath written nothing : or els Eusebius would not haue helde his peace more then of the others . But although he shoulde haue written those bookes , yet he dyd sufficiently declare by them that at the tyme as those were written , there was not suche extreme vnction as there is at this present . He maketh mention that the Christians vsed of custome to anoynte the faythfull in the baptisme , in witnesse that they did arme themselues for to fight , and the dead in lyke manner , when one buryeth them , in signe and taken , that they haue valyauntly fought , and that they haue gotten and obtayned the victory , and are gone to rest . But he speaketh not a word of the anoynting of the sicke and diseased , the which with much adoe hée woulde haue omitted , without touching and expressing it , aswell as he hath done the creame of the baptisme . And although it should be so , that that which the Priestes doe , shoulde haue some certeyne foundation in the doctrine of Saynt Iames , yet they cannot deny , but that that place bath great coulour , for to condempne that which they do about the dead . For they haue not much redde in all the holy Sacripture , which hath more appearaunce at the first sight , for to colour their ceremonyes , & new sacraments , which they haue inuented without the ordinaunce of Iesus Christ , then that place bath , for to giue lyght vnto theire extreme vnction , and those muttering and mumblyng of the Psalter which they doe make about the sicke persons , And yet neuerthelesse there is not one onely sillable vppon which they can stay or take hold for to grounde and allow the least of the ceremonyes and supersticions which they commit about the dead .

Hillarius .

It is neuerthelesse much to be meruayled at , that if there had bene in their case any imitacion of the traditions of the Apostles , and of the Primatiue Churche , but that Saint Iames would haue touched some worde , sith that he hath already taken in hande the matter of the sicke and diseased , and that occasion also did suffer to speake of the dead , and to teach how the Christians & the Ministers of the Church ought to behaue themsolues , if such things were necessarye , which sithens the time of the Apostles haue bene brought into the Church of God .

Theophilus .

Thy reason is not euill . Wherefore me thinketh ( friend Eusebius that thou maist now vnderstand that that place of Saint Ambrose , and the other reasons which thou hast put forth for to proue thy intentien , & to confirme thy matter , conserue serue thée nothing at al , for to allowe that which nowe in such a case is dene in your Churches : But rather to condempne and reproue them . For you your selfe followe not the example of the Israelites propou●ded by Saynt Ambrose , and your Decrées and Canons , nor you are not co●tented with the dayed which are there specified , nor with the manner described in them , for to celebrate the commemoration of the dead , but doe adde to it many other things of which you cannot alleadge any example to be on your side , neyther in the olde nor new Testament , nor of the auncient people of Israel , nor also of the first Christians , but of the Panims and Idolaters , whom you doe follow , kéepinge almost the very same dayes that they for the same haue chosen , and with the lyke supersticion as they . Wherefore I am abashed of Durand , who expounding the misteryes and secrets contayned in the number of those dayes , Rat. diui. off . l● . 7. Rub. de off . mort Nensuain●● hath written among other thinges that some Christians haue also chosen the nynth day , for to make the Dbsequies and commemoratien of the deade : or haue vsed of custome to offer nyne dayes together for them , that theire soules should be delyuered from paynes , and ioyned and kiut together vnto the nyne order of the Angells . But he addeth that the same was not allowed of some , fearing least it should séeme that the Christians were unitators and followers of the Panims and Gentiles , who had that same day dedicated vnto the obsequies & commemoration of their dead , as already hath ben touched .

Hillarius .

Duer and besides the witnesse of all the Poets and chiefely of Virg. Aene. 5. Hota . in Epod. ●ice ad Quint Pra. li. 3. Liui ● . ab . v●be Et. ● . bel . ●um . Virgile , who described that Anniuersarie that Aeneas made for his father Anchises , & the sacrifices & playes that they celebrated in the nynth daye of the same , we haue all the histories which are o● credite , namely Titus Liuius , who in many places , maketh mention of those Nensnaines and nyne daies , which they do cal Nouendium & Nouendiale .

Theophilus .

But wherefore was the customes of that Christians more to be rebuked , which do celebrate the nynth day & the Nensuaines in the honour of that dead , then ether which do celebrate that seuenth day , thirty , forty , a hundreth , or other lyke dayes ? For if the thing be good in one day , how can it be euill in the other ? doth the number adde or giue any more greater holynesse to one of the dayes more then to an other . And if the thing be nothing worth to one of the dayes , what priuiledge haue the other for to make it better ?

Eusebius .

Wherfore do you demaund the cause , sith that it hath bene already alleadged by thine owne self , reciting the wordes of Durand ? Do you thinke that that cause ought to suffice , least it should not séeme that the Christians do follow that Panims , & allow their manner or doings ?

Hilla .

Truly you looke well to your busines , & haue wel prouided for your affaires . Me thinketh that that diuel , who hath ben that authour of your supersticions & idolatries , in very déede hath ben a great Louldaue , & of a slougthful spirit , if he had any iudgement in men with whom he had to do , & if god by his iust iudgement had not taken from them their sence & vnderstanding . For what maske hath he taken for to disguyse himselfe withall to change one day into an other ? what difference is ther , if you do that same things . which were vsed amonge the Panims , sauing that you doe chaunge the daye ? Which is best , eyther to blaspheme God the third , seuenth , thirtie and fortie day , or the fourth , nynth , tenth , or fiftle ? Can one dishonour and blaspheme him more honestly in the one of those dayes then in the other . What doe I care what day you take , if you commit the same faultes ? As touching the dayes , you haue Imitation of the Iewes & panims . chosen those same of the Iewes . As touching the supersticion , you do follow the same of the Panims : & desiring to shew that you are neyther Iew nor Panim , you declare , that you are lesse christians : but that you haue a sect & a new law lyke vnto that of Mahomet , who haue not followed altogether The Imitacion of Mahonus . neither that of the Iewes , & Panims , nor yet that of the Christians : But made one , taking out of all those together that it pleased him , and hath made a potage , mingled with all sauces , and corrupted with all poysons , which doe in such sorte waste all that that maye be good , that there remayneth nothing , but the vyle venyme of all errours & heresies . I know not vnto what I may compare more preperly your traditions , then vnto those of that false prophet : nor I do not well know , what difference may be the greater between those , except peraduenture I should say that in yours there is more of the imitation of the Panims , and that your Rome and hir lawes , is alwayes the auncient Rome , and the lawes that she had before the reuelation The olde and new Rome . of the Gospell . The which thing I will shew vnto thée at the first sight , by a goodly discourse , the better to vanquish and ouercome thée , sith that thou wilt not be contented with that which already hath bene sufficiently proued vnto thee : not that I haue determined to rehearse all your ceremonyes and traditions . For I had rather to number and tell all the sande of the Sea and to drawe out all the water from the same : But I will content my selfe at this tune , with the conference of Mortuaryes , and with that which belongeth vnto them , which haue bene among the panims , the which you haue kept , and the things which haue some affinitie with them .

Then I demaund of thée first of all , if Durand did finde anything to say vnto the Christians , which did celebrate the Nensuaines , bicause of the affinitie that they séemed to haue with the Panims : Wherfore then doe you allow Anniuersaries . those which doe celebrate the Anniuersaryes of the dead ? For the same neuer had other for his first authours then the Panims , as I wil proue vnto thée by and by , by their Theologians . Thou arte not contented with that which Theophilus hath aunswered thee in , that sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and Gregory , those manner The beginning of the feasts and Anniuersaries for the dead . Pluto . Cal. lecsant . li. 17. ca. 2 doings haue taken great force , and haue bene much augmented among the Christians , and thou doest no wrong : For they are a greate deale more auneyent , yea , and inuented longe before the tyme of the Apostles , if wee wyll beléeue Diodorus , who affirmeth Pluto , to haue bene the authour & inuentour of them , and of the funerall ceremonies , as I haue already tolde thée before .

After whom came Aeneas , who in the honour of his Aeneas . Anchises . Father Anchises , ordained and made Anniuersaries and yéerely feastes , and sacrifices for the dead , as the auncient histories doe witnesse , whome the Poets haue followed , who doe describe those thinges verye amply , and chieslye Virgile , who bringeth in Aeneas speakinge vnto his compaignions in this manner .

You mightie Troyans , from the bloud of great Gods that discend , Virg. Aene. 5 This time is come about , a perfect yeare is now at end , Since when my father Anchisos blessed bones were put in ground And mourning alters for his holy relikes we did found . And now the day ( if I doe not mistake ) approcheth neere , That vnto me , shall euer dolefull be , and euer deere . Since Gods hath pleased so : If I this day were cast a land , Among the sauage Moores , or on the shotes of Syrtes sand . Or eaught on Greekish seas , or in Mycena towne a●slaue , Yet pay my yeerely vowes I would , with pompe of dueties braue , And gifts in feastfull guise , on alters large I would aduaunce , Now here in hauen we be , among our friends , not by no chaunce , But by the Gods ( I trust ) of purpose wrought , and for the nones , To worship here my fathers blessed dust , and precious bones . Come on therefore , let euery man set foorth these honors pure , With myrth on euery side , that of good windes we may be sure , And as I yearely now these offring dayes to him doe make , So when my Citie builded is , in Temples he shal take .

Now following the vow that Aeneas made héere , Ouid Ouid , Fast . 2 also witnesseth how that manner of dooing , by hym was carryd into Italy , saying .

Aeneas , the first deuiser was , of all true godlinesse , Which order brought to Italian land as stories doe expresse : That yeerely giftes for fathers soules , to Temple should be brought . From him the people learned had , new customes neuer taught .

After Aeneas came Romulus , who did follow his example , Romul . Remus . Lemuria . Plut. in Rom. The feasts of the dead in May . and hath also ordained a feast , called Lemuria , or Remuria , & an Anniuersarie in the moneth of May , for his brother Remus and others that be dead , as many historiographers do witnesse , & Ouid vescribeth after in this sort , saying :

The order was of sacrifice , Ouid. Fast . 5. on dayes Remuria hight , For silly soules that were in paine to sing a Ditge at night . The yeare then was not full so long for Februa feastes were none , Nor Ianus guider of the monthes With double shape was knowne : Yet after by and by they brought offrings for soules to haue , And Nephewes sacrifyces made for graunsires laide in graue .

And by and by afterwardes sayth :

Romulus that day Remuria hight that sacrifice for sinne , For graundsires soules from body past was offred first by him .

Now Numa the successor of Romulus , not béeing contented with that which hath bene already instituted by Numa . his predecessors , amongest other ceremonies that he gaue vnto the ●emishe people , bee hath yet added vnto the Feasts for the dead in February Lupercaies Plat. in Rom. Ouid. Fast . 2 The signth●ati . first an other feast for the dead in the moneth of February whiche hée celebrated yearelye , and contynued eleune dayes , that whiche Romulus , in institutinge the feaste of Lupercales hath already somewhat begun . For that on of February Consorius Plutarch Sex. Pomp. cause was that moneth called , February , the which Num● hath added with Ianuary , to the yeare of Romulus which was not but ten monethes , & kéepeth yet the name . For February sigmfieth as much in Latin , as purgation or Purgatory . And therefore the name was giuen vnto that seconde moneth , bicause of the feastes and sacrifices which were celebrated , as well for the purgation of the soules , as for , the purification of the Citie & all the country : to the which thinge all that moneth was dedicated : the which Ouid hath all comprised in these verses , saying :

The Romaine fathers Februa hight , a sacrifice for sin , Fast . 2. And to the word doth crodue giue , as doth consist therein : And whatsoeuer is prepard , by any meanes they may , Is for to purge our bodies so , that sinne rest not nor stay . February . In time therefore of Fathers olde , whieh sheared not their haire That month then tooke his name thereoff , as it shall heare appeare . At what time that the Lupersales , with sinne be rent and torne Did purne the earth from filthy sinne that then was al forlorne . Or els bicause those times be pure , that dead appeased bee When offring daies be gone and past , as that time they did see . Theophilus .

Friende Eusebius , if you are not contented with the authoritie of Ouid , yet I thincke at the leastwise you will not relect that same of Saincte Augustine , who in his bookes of the Citie of God , speakinge August . de ciui Des. li. 7. c. 7 of that same matter confirmeth that whiche Ouid hath written , alledginge his●owne verses , and saith amonge other things . In that moneth was made the holy Purgatory , Sacrum Purgatorium quod vocant February which they cal Februm . He vnderstandeth by the same that the Panims did make in that time , theire holye and sacred sacrifices of purgation , as wee woulde saye no we at this daye the Purgatory , or purgatine Masse .

Hillarius .

Besides those general feasts and which were common to all the dead , according to the viuersitie of the countries & nations , & as the case requireth & the person which dyed , they had other feasts & Annirersaries more perticular either for one , or for many , as the Greekes had a custome The obseqnies of the Greeks in September . to celebrate the xbj : day of the moneth of September , the Dbsequies & Anniuersaries of those which dyed in the war , fighting against the Persinns , as witnesseth Plutarch : Plat. in Aristide Anniuersaries in Nonember . Plut. in Marce lo. forum boar●um . Cice. pro Flaccs & li. 2. de legs Liui 4. bel puns Casa . li. 7. bel . gal . Also he witnesseth the at Rome they did the like in the moneth of November , for the Gaulois , Frechmen & Greekes , which haue bene buried in the place which was called the Bullock market . And Gicero & Titus Liuius do offentimes make inention of such feast dayes of the Panims and good déeds .

Theophilus .

He hath learned by those things , euen as we do sée dayly the lilte practise in our Popes & prelates of the Church , who haue alwayes added ceremonies vpon ceremonies : superstition vpon superstition , & Idolatry vpon Idolatry , & haue dayly augmented them , sith that they are once begun , insomuch that it is not possible that they can procéede any further . For we do surmount & excéed already long since , all the auncient Idolaters in Idolatry . Wherfore we haue better occasion to complaine , then S. Augustine had in his time , which differed much from ours : And The complaynt of S. Augustine Epist. ad lannu artus . 119 yet neuerthelesse he did greatly complaine of the multitude of ceremonies and superstitions with which alreadye the Church was then ouercharged & corrupted . Therefore said he , our Lord Iesus Christ willing to giue vnto his church a great liberty : would not make it to be , subiect vnto many ceremonies , but onely vnto a little certeine number of sacraments : And yet neuerthelesse it is nowe so much charged , The charge of ceremonyes . that the condition of the Iewes who were vnder the shadowes and figures , and the seruitude and bondage of the lawe , is more tollerable then ours , and chiesly in that that the ceremonies which they had , were giuen vnto them of God , but those which haue ben brought into the Cstristtan Church , are nothing els but mans presumptions & inuentions of presumptious and ouerbolde men .

Hillarius .

Truely he should haue now other occasion to write the same , if he did sée the traine that the Papistes doe holde : as well towardes the quicke as towardes the dead : wee may assuredly affirme that Pluto was no lesse the authour of the Dbsequies , Funerals , Dbites , Legates , Anniuersaries The Pluto of the christians . and other like things , which are at this daye vsed among the Christians , as among the Panims . For Pluto is the God of riches . And what hath bene the first cause , and firste foundation of all these thinges , and of Purgaforye , and of those dependaunces , and the occasion of so much augmenting & increasing of them , but the insatiable auarice & couetousnesse of the great Romish Pluto , & of his Mercuries , & other like Gods , which are ioyned with The office of Mercurie , him ? For if we by iust occasion , do cal him Pluto , we haue no lesse occasion to compare both him & his vnto Mercurie , Cal. Rho. lect. Ant. li. 18. ● . 6 whose office is among the Gods , to lead & bring the soules in those Plutonical & infernal regions & kingdomes , after that they be seperated from the body , He hath to dooe now in heauen , now in the earth , and by & by in hell . The which thing was one of the causes , wherfore the Panims did paint his picture & Image , hauing thrée heads . In steed whereoff our Pluto , hath his thrée crownes , for to declare Mercurie hath three heads Tyrephalos . The three Popish crowries Hecate triuia & trifortmis . that he hath power in heauen , earth & hel , and that he holdeth the place of Hecate , vnto whom the Idolaters do attribute thrée formes , and such a power : the which the Pope doth attribute vnto himselfe altogether . For he is mounted and ascended into such arrogancie and pride , that hée dare take vpon him to commaunde the Angelles and the The Popes power . Virg. Aene. 6. Orpheus & Euridice . Castor & Pollux . Theseus & Pirothus Hercules . The harpe of Orpheus and that of & Pope Dyuels , and to stretch foorth his hande euen to the hells , for to pull from thence the soules , and those which are thether descended , but it is after that sort as Orpheus went to seke his wife Eurydice , Pollux his brother Castor : The● seus and Pyrothus who rauished Proserpina : Dr as Hercules descended thether , for to bring away Cerberus . For I doubt not , but that these poeticall fables do containe as much truth , as that which that Pope would make vs to beléeue . And I beléeue that his Musitions & Singers haue no more tertue , then the Harpe of Orpheus for to drawe the soules from Purgatory : But he hath a Harpe vpon which hée playeth better , then euer Orpheus did , For by the meanes of the same , he eateheth euery thing , & nothing escapeth him , but that he bringeth al things vnder his wing , Wherfore we may rightly attribute vnto him thrée heads , as vnto Mercurie Geryo● & Cerberus , & thrée bodies , as vnto Geryon , sith that he hath such credit with the celestial & infernal gods , that he commaundeth yt. Angels of heauen , that they bring vnto the ioyes of paradise , the soule of him who for his pardons goeth to Rome , & that he be deliuered from Purgatory . And he sayth yet moreouer , we wil not , that the paine of hel be any thing at al inioyned vnto such a person . And it is not sufficient for him to vsurps such authoritie & seigniory vpon hyn , but he doth also giue that power vnto those which do receiue his Cromade , ●o deliuer from Purgatory thrée or foure soules , yea , such as they will themselues . The bull of Glement .

Thomas .

Is it possible that he is so shamelesse & ouerbold ?

Hillarius :

The Bull of Pope Clement may beare witnes of it , the which is kept yet at this day well sealed with seales of lead at Vienna , Limoges , Poictiers , & in the coffers of that priuiledges . It is very true that the Sorbonnists of Paris would not allow it , but condempned it . But yet neuerthelesse it must néeds be that it must passe by their hands . He hath also a great many other proverties in him , for the which one may compare both him & his vnto Mercurie , who was in Other offices of Mercury Rhod. lectant . li. 16. ca. 19 The Image of Mercury like manner holden & accompted of the Panims , for the God of gaine , of merchants , deceiuers , hers & théeues . And therfore they painted him with a serip , did set his Image in the middle of the market , & before the gates of the houses , for to kéepe them , & for to driue away the other théeues : bicause that he was the greatest , & Prince of others . For did the earth bring foorth euer such deceiuers , abusers , and liers , such merchaunts , and more couetous of filthy gaine ? They may well cary the scri● . For that is the cabin from The scrippe of Mercury which do come foorth all these lawes , canons & decrees , for to yet the money both of the liuing and also of the dead . And hee caryeth not the key wythout a cause , for to open and shut the gates , and to empty the coffers and scrippes , and to take awaye the praye from other théeues , of whome hée is the Capitayne . At the leastwise , none can denfe , but that the doctrine of the Panims , as muche as concerneth the dead ; is more reasonable then that of the Papistes . For althoughe that the Theologians of the A lyttle cost about the dead . Pamins , do allow the Ceremonies , Feasts , and Anniuersaries of the dead , yet neuerthelesse they doe also teache , that it is not nowe néedefull to bestowe any greate cost about them , but that they content themselues with a little thing , euen as Ouid the maister of ceremonies , witnesseth Ouid. Fast . 2 , in his Calender , in these wordes .

It is an honor dew to soules and bodies that be dead To bring such giftes to yerksome graue , as satisfye their mead . The soules doe much delite therein and much the same doth craue , By meanes whereoff themselues they thinke , from Plutos force : to saue . With flowers greene and garlands gay , their heads they doe adorne : And wine and salt is put thereto with other fruites and corne . Nor things of more waight I reproue For soules therein delight , On graue say thou thy prayers then , that ghostes may haue their right .

Wherevnto agréeth also the Dracle of Apollo , speaking The Oracle of Apollo . of the sacrifices of the infernall Gods , and of the soules , in these wordes .

The Gods wich with their bodies black , about the world do fly , Which also dayly sacrifice , require incessauntly , Iucense of Meale and salted fruites , and also pleasaunt Cakes , See that you make together mixt , as daintie delicates .

For that cause they vsed in , that time there , to sette The banket and supper of the dead . such meates vpon a. stpue●to the cude that the good scules and shadowes should come and banket there , & they called that banquet and supper , that they made for them Silicernium , Silyeernium . bicause that the shadowes and the soules behold it in stlence . They doe also call it Feralis Coena , as wee Feralis e●na may say the supper of the dead : of which speaketh luuenal , confirminge the thinges aboue spoken , after thys manner .

In platters small , the suppers they doe put . 〈◊〉 . Saly . 5 ●o● bodies dead , in lothsome graue layd vp .

And in like manner Persius , speaking of him which consumed Pers. Saty. 6 his goods foolishly :

The heire with wrathfull ire doth pine to see thy goods so spent , Nor funerall feastes esteeme will he not made to his intent .

I doe thincke that Baruch did vnderstand by such suppers , Baruch . 6. e. 30. that which is written in hys booke , of the Priestes of the Babilonians and Idolaters , saying : The Priestes sit in their temples , hauing open clothes , whose beades and beardes are shauen , and haue nothinge vpon theire beades : roaring and crying vpon their Gods , as men doo at the feaste , when one is dead . Hee sheweth in sewe woordes , the manner that the Idolaters had , both in their diuine seruice for the Gods , and the office of the dead .

Hillarius .

And what had they that wée haue not ? dooe not our Priestes roare and crye both after their Gods and after the dead ? may we not rightlye call their Masses of Requiem , the supper of the dead ? For they haue all that which Baruch hath comprehended , without faylinge one haire of ones head . It may haue peraduenture some differ●ce in that that the Masse is song in the morning . Wherfore it should soeme more fitter , to call it , the draft of wine , or the breakfast or dinner of the dead ?

Thomas .

That which thou hast spoken to couer the able to the d●●● , is vsed yet at this day of some , who at the fense that is made when one is dead , do leaue all night the Table couered and set full The table couered for the soules . of meates , béeing of that opinion that the soules do come thither to banket .

Theophilus .

Maister Iohn Belet witnesseth neuerthelesse M. Iohn Belet . Rat. dius. off . 1● . 7. Rub. de cath. 5. Pet. The feast of S. Peters chaire . in his booke that he made of the Legend of Saincts , and feastes of all the yeare , that the auncients haue ordeyned the feast of Sainct Peters chaire in February , vppon suche a day as the Panyms accustomed to offer yearely , Wyne , and other meats vppon the Sepulchers of the dead , and to banket them , thinking that the soules and shadowes which passed by the Sepulchers , would come & eate . Wherefore to abolishe that superstitious & witked custome , they haue constituted that that feast should be celebrated , the which for that cause was called at the beginning , the feast of Sainct Peter of meates & bankets .

Hillarius .

And what haue they gayned by changing it ? The poore Christian people haue no profit by it , and there is no gaine but for the Priests , whiche steede therof , haue at this day their stones & aulters , vpon which they do lay their table clothes , and afterwardes when the table is spread and couered , wee must take care for the meates , and pay the banket , and yet neuertheles we eate nothing at all , but are as the Panims , which bring the supper to the dead , afterwards they onely looke on them , not daring to touch it , which was also the one of the causes , wherefore that banket was called Silicernium , as witnesseth Donatus . For they did thinke , that whosoeuer did taste , eate or drinke of that which was offered vnto the Donat in Adelph Terent. dead , was polluted and defyled . But our priestes feare not that For they themselues doe eate with they ? domestical he Nymphes A the Priests & of the panims Nimphes , which beuoure and consume with them , the reliefe which remayned for that soules . For such Nymphes , do take no lesse pleasure in sweete & deheate meats , then those of the Panims , who would that one should offer vnto them wyne and ●ony , as witnessoth the Oracle of Apollorsaying :

The Nymphes are glad and make good fare The Oracle of Apollo . with hony and wine , which pleasant are .

In steede of them wée haue those paliards & whorehunters vnto whom we must offer vnder the title and name of the Soules , who endeuour themselues so wel , that nothing of the offrings remaineth , although that that shadowes and soules diminish them nothing at al. For they haue not very great bellies : except peraduenture there be dronkerds , like vnto those of the bawde , vnto when Propeise giueth the Requiescant in pace , saying . Properse . Requise ●● in pace of the hawde .

Thou slinking bawde and filthy whore , & strumpet al forlornt , Thy lothsome Tombe is ouer grone with sharpe & pricking thorne Thy ghost ' is dry , & fore a thirst , & so will still remaine Against thy will it must be so , why should I to thee saine . Thomas ,

Yet neuertheles a man shall finde shadowes which do eate very well , and which haue good teeth & great bellies .

Hillarius .

If thou doe take the shadowes for those Shalowes hauing teeth and bellyes . which come vnto the bankets , not beeing byd with those which are the gestes , I graunt vnto thée , that such shadowes haue not the taste in the teeth , nor liue not of the dewe , as the Grashoppers : or of the winde as the Camelion . But the shadowes of which I speake , are of another nature . The auncients called those whom thou speakest Cigales . Chameleon . 〈◊〉 1 cent. 1. off , shadowes , bicause that they follow and accompany those that are bidden , as the shatowe solloweth and accompanieth the bodie , and vnder coloure of them , all though that they bee not called by him that maketh the banket , do keepe neuerthelesse company with the gestes , & sit at the table with them . After that sorte did Plutarch The shadowes of the dead . Ving . Aene. 6. Phn. li. 7 ca. 55 expounde it , and Horace amonge the Latius hath often vsed it . For when such shadowes are at the table , they do effectually shew that they are not vaine & emptie shadowes , but of bodies altogether fat & massy . But when the auncients doe speake of the shadowes of those that bee dead , they vnderstand not properly their soules , but their visions and fantafficall figures , which do watch about the Sepulchers , Trang . in talig Cice. Tusc. ● . li. ● and do shew themselues as shadowes , in the forme and likenes of bodies , which yet neuerthelesse were not , & vanished away when 〈◊〉 did come nigh them , and when one did thinke to tonche them , as a shadow and smoke .

Thomas .

I doe verily beleeue that those doe not much diminish the meates .

Eusebius .

Also one may well knowe , that there is now none so foolish that doth thinke that the soules do eate the offrings : But we doe cary them at their feast dayes , for to nourish the seruants of God , thorow whose prayers , & by reason of the Masses & good déedes that they do vpon such dayes for them , they haue deliuerance and rest .

Hillarius ,

That is the cause wherefore their Bing pluto , & Neoptolemus , Eacus , Minos & Radamantus , that criminall Iudges of the Infernall courte , and of those Plutonicall Regions , do open vnto them the charters & prysons of Purgatory , & do giue vnto them fielde playes and pastimes and leaue to play a litle , as the Schoole maisters The playes and pastimes for the soules . do giue vnto their scollers , for to take some recreation & pastime , euen as Mantuan witnesseth saying .

As ofte as men their Sacrafice Mantua . li. 3. Alphonsi . By almes or seasts do make : Or els by prayers they do thinke . the needies thirst to slake , To bellies rage and pamperd flesh a brydell they do set , And to the gods they do poure out their prayers from heart yfet . By meanes whereoff , the furious rage of windy force is layd For gods thereto agreed hath which makes them well apayd . By vse whereoff and gods good grace they haue both mirth and ioye . And saue them from the hellish rage that doth their soules anoye .

It were good reason that they should haue at the least The dayes of Aristotle . once or twice in the yeare , some good Aristotolicall dayes for to delite and refresh themselues and for to bring them out of these hot and burning furnaces . I pray thee thinke what ioye they do make , when that they feele & perceiue their feast to drawe nigh , in whiche they looke to haue some libertie and to finde some little grace and fauoure of their king Pluto , by whom I meane him of whom the Frenche Poet hath written after this manner , in his hell .

It is the holy name of Pope , that hellish hounds imbrace , And with his stole can cull them in , & winne them to his grace , But fearest thou not , that monster great , that doth affirme & say , That hell to ope and also shut , he both them can and may , Yea he it is , by scorching heate , that martir can the soules And thousand thousands ryd he can from heate of parching coals .

I think that then he holdeth his keyes in the right hand The merry conceits and iestes of a holy father for to let loose a little these poore soules , that they should laugh and bee merry , if that be true which a holy father preached at Bordeaux , saying and affirming , that when one offereth for the dead , and that the soules do heare the sounde of the money which falleth ting , ting , in the basin , or the bore prepared to receiue the offring , they receiue so great ioy , and do beginne somuch to laugh , that they do make a noyse , ha , ha , ha , hi , hi , hi. What wilt thou more ? should one spoyle and robbe them of their laughing ? The laughing of the soules

Thomas .

And did that holy father laugh , so in the pulpit ?

Hillarius ,

Thou doest well know that the play had bene nothing worth otherwise and it behoueth that a good player of iests and games , do reprcsente and make all the lestures and partes of the parsonnes whose parte he playeth . And wilt thou know whether he spake it in earnest or not ? I beléeue that hée did sweare that it was so , by his brest , by the faith of his Pricsthoode : and by the Masse hée song this daye , and the God that hee had eaten . But for to returne unto the bankettes of the soules : howe muche doest thou thincke that they haue spente ? I thincke that they doe lesse burte unto those meates , then the flyes , and that they dooe but lych a lyttle upon it . Wherefore one cannot perceiue the cost , for to recken to them their shot : Neuerthelesse although that accoroing to the Theology of Ouid , they are contented with a little , yet they are notwithstanding meruailously sorrowfull and angry , and doe rage out of measure when The puni●hmet for the dtspising of the soules Fast . 2. one forgetteth them without making any accompt , & doing his duetie towardes them , and doe auenge themselues rigorouslye as the Theologyan before alledged wytnesseth , speaking of that matter , and of theyr feaste , saying :

When doubtfull chaunco of victory , with foes in field was tride , Then sunerals for parents soules , was layed cleane aside , And though that flames for corses dead , did heat the wals of Rome Yet seapt they not vnpunished , by iust and rightfull dome ,

He meaneth by the same that they were stroken wyth so terrible diseases , and so great mortalitie , that euery daye men ceased not to make great fires in the suburbes of the Citie , for to burne the bodyes of those which dayly dyed to a great number .

Thomas .

But how haue the Romaines imagined , that their euyll procéeded thereby ? For they had a certein excuse , bicause of the great affaires that they had .

Hillarius .

Dur Doctour before alledged , expoundeth also the manner how the same came unto theyr knowledge , saying . Fast . 2. Soules & man . dring shadows

The graundfathers reported are , by night from Tombe to come And in those times doe much bewayle , the wrongs vnto them done . For sacrifice not for them made their soules by streetes doe glide . And through fieldes and desarts great , in wofull dole doe slide .

They learned to their coste , not to dispise and forget any more the soules , & they did set such good order , that they neuer afterwaids tt , eir realt and solemuitie was forgotten and onlitted , without beeing ducly celebrated , as it ought to be according to the auncient manner .

Thomas .

And did that profit them any thing al all ?

Hillarius .

Marke the aunswer and witnes of the same Doctor , saying .

But after sacrifices donne that did surcease of yore These monstrous shapes and mortall plagues afflicted them no more .

Who will deuy but that Ouid was a true Prophet of the Popes ? who hath prefigured and described in his feasts and Calender , the feastes and popish Religion . soe well in euery point , that there is no more to bee spoken of it ? for what other thing is the popishe Religion , then the Fast . 2. Ouid the popes Propact . contmucation and maintenance of the auncient Rome ? the which this man here hath succeeded , obserued and kept all in all .

Theophilus .

He hath hit the nayle on the head . Wherfore The Calender of Ouid The Romish to lygion olde & new you do no wronge friend Eusebius , in saying that you would liue as your predecessors : For those olde Idolatrous Romaines are your true predecessors , sith that you will follow them , & not that Prophets & Apostles of Iesus Christ : And euen as those fictions , appearing of spirites & Predecessors of the Papilt . shadowes ; serued among the Panyins but for to nourish , keepe and confirme the Idolatrie ? euen so is it at this V Vherevnto that appearing of sdirits protend . day amonge the Papists . In steede that that Romaines ought to acknowledge & confelse that God punished them , bicause of their abhominable Idolatrie , msatlable auarice , stelthes violences , murthers & sheading of mans bloud , which was shed by them thorow out the universall worlde , they haue rather presumed & thought , that those euils . happened unto thee , bicause that they had not wei done their duety towards that soules of that dead , that is to save , bicause that they had not wel serued & honored that diuell as he woulde bee : unto whom they did make those sacrifices , not unto God , sith that of him they had not receiued commaundement , nor such lawes & ordinaunces .

Hillarius

At that least , friende Eusebius you can not deny , but that your religion hath greate confirnutie , with that which you haue already heard : But I wil yet declare & shewe unto thee more , without swaruing from the feast of that dead . For there were other lawes , statutes & customes The consormitie betweene the Popish relygion & the panims . Mariage forbid deli certeine times among the Panans . February that you kéepe at this daye , sauing that there is a little difference in that moneths & dayes . But els all is one . They had certaine monethes in the yeare , in which it was not lawefull to mary nor to celebrate mariage : not that it was forbioden al that moneth thorow out , but only certaine daies in euery one of them : of which february had elcuen , which we dedicated unto that dead , as Ouid withnesseth , saying :

Now all that time of sacrifice Fast . 2. no wedding might they see , Nor bride to bridegroume , might be knowne by vow to lynked Bee . Nor virgins fayre in Mothers sight that marygeable were , By tricking might sett out and dresse , their yellow bush of haire . The mariage mocions now were gonne and loue was layd a side And dueties due to bodies dead Hymeneus the God of mariage in place gan creepe and glide . This feast endured and abode so many dayes they say : As is the month aboue eleuen The moneth of Marche . The procession of Mats Fast . 3. The comhat of Mars & Miner ua . Porpbyrion in Horat. this do they not denay .

That forbidding also tooke place in that moneth of Marche , but it continued but three dayes , during that which they made the feaste and procession of Mars the God of battell : whom the Goddesse Minerua banquished in the combat and battail that they had together of mariage . ●f whom Minerua obtayning hir Uirginitye , was called Neruie , in the honour of whom the maydens & suoemen did abstaine from marriage , these three dayes together . There remaineth yet almost as many dayes for Vay , bicause Maye . Pluta in Romu Porphy . in Horal . ● pist. vlts . Past . 5. of the feast of the dead , instituted in suche time by Romulus as already hath bene declared , and Ouid also witnesseth it saying .

Nor were those dayes , for mariage apt . for wydow nor for mayd And they that maried in those tymes , with losse of life were payd . And for that cause , as prouerbe olde Common Prouerbe . doth both affirme and say That for to wed hath bene forbid euen in the monthe of May .

I know not whether there be any other time , in whiche mariage was prohtbited , except one part of the first dayes of Iune , vntill such time as the filthinesse which men tooke from the temple of Vesta , after that it was purged and made cleane , were cast into the kyuer : as it appeareth by the verses of the poet before allcvged , who bringeth in Sanctus Fidius speaking of his daughter in these wordes .

A time of marriage then I sought Fast . 6. that so by law might beare That ioyne I might , him whom I lyckt hyr whom I held full deare . Then found I that the Ides of lune to my desire did gree , That daughter to a sonne in law might mstly linked bee . And that the first part of the month , therto doth not agree , As Sacrificers wise of late full ofte hath said to me . But till that quiet Tiber doth the filth from Vesta reare By trickling flowing water moue and so to sea them beare . I thinke it lawfull not for me my rugged haire to combe , Nor yet for me to pare my nailes , vntill dew time doth come .

Now I pray thée consider friend Eusebius , whether in your religion that order be much chaunged , & whether you The conformitie betweene the God Mars & S. George haue kept those ceremonies . I could héere declare vnto thée the conformitie the which your feast of Saint George hath with that of Mars . For you haue S. George for the God of battaile & patron of the soldiers , in stéede as the Panims had Mars . As touching his feast , there is difference of the time , sauing that the one is kept in the moncth of April , and that of Mars in the moneth of March , in whose honour it The Image of Saint George cast into Seine . Iohn Maio. 4 sent. dist. 49 9. 5. kéepeth his name . Although that Saint George shewed not himselfe to be any valiant knight , when he suffered his Image to be cast into the ryuer of Seine , of those of the new citie of S. George , nigh vnto Paris , bicause that the vines were frosen vpon his feast day . I might also bring in the conformitie which you make betwéene the virgin Mary and Minerua : For you haue consecrated for them feastes all in one moneth , but I will not nowe so much dilate and enlarge the matter . Yet neuerthelesse bycause of the affinitie and coniunction that the one of the superstitions hathe wyth the other , in declaringe the feastes of the deade , I wyll myngle in the deduction of the matter , some other Ceremonyes , bycause of the kyndred and neyghbourhoode . I demaunde then of thée firste of all The conformitie of the feasts of the dead . February and Nouember friende Eusebius , whether there bée any great dyfference betwéene the feaste of the deade , which is celebrated at Rome in the moneth of February , and yours of Nouember , the whiche you dooe celebrate the daye after all Saindes ?

Eusebius .

As thou hast accustomed to dooe thou wylte finde alwayes by thy slaunders , suche agréeinge as thou wilt .

Hillarius .

Héere néedeth no slaunder . Wee muste followe but the simple veritie . If thou dooe thincke that it agréeth not to thy fantasie , bicause of the distaunce that it hathe from the moneth of Nouember vnto Februarye , at the leastwise thou canst not denye , but that it agréeth with the time , betwéene yours , and that whiche the Romaines celebrated for the Gaulois and Greekes that were buryed in the Bullocke market . There is no difference as concerninge the time , but onely in thys , that yours is at the Plut. in Mar Pantheon and all Saints beginning of the moneth , and theirs in the ende . Furthermore thou canst not deny , but that ther is conformitie betwéene the Pantheon of the Panims , and your feast of all Saintes : And euen as they had the feast of all the celestiall Gods , and that of the infernall Gods , and for the soules of the dead , haue not you also the lyke , celebrating after the feaste of all the Sainctes whiche are in heauen , that of the dead which are yet detayned and kept in Purgatorye . They doe call Pantheon an auncient Temple which was dedicated vnto Cyble the great Goddesse , Cyble . mother of the Gods , and consequentlye vnto all the other Gods , of whome hée beareth the name . For Pantheon signifieth as muche , as if wée shoulde saye , all Pompo . lst . de Roma . antiq. Barth . Marl. de antiq. Roma To. pog . ls . 6. ca. 6. S. M. uia la. Retende Gods , euen as wée saye , all Saintes . For they had those Gods in such reputation , as you haue the Sainctes , in the honoure of whome they haue celebrated the feaste , and made sacrifices in that Temple , whiche is at thys daye at Rome , and is called Saint Mary La Rotonde , bicause that it was made rounde lyke vnto a Bowle , for to represent the forme and fashion of the worlde . But in steede that it was dedicated vnto Cyble , and to all the other Gods , it is nowe dedicated vnto Sayncte Mary , and to all the Saincts , to the ende that all your papystleall Gods shoulde haue suche honour , as those of the Idolaters , and their feastes to hée regysteed as well as theirs .

And so by that meanes Sathan is alwayes honoured in stéede of God , as hée was before vnder the name and tytle The maske of Sathan of Cyble and of other Gods and Goddesses , sauynge that hée hathe chaunged those olde names into other all newe and pleasaunt and fauourable amonge the Christyans , for to disguyse himselfe , to the ende hée shoulde not bée knowen , and that vnder a goodly coloure hee maye the easelyer blaspheme God , and dishonoure the Virgin Mary and all the Saints and Sayntes vnder the coulour of honouringe them . And wythout speakinge of other Saints and Sainctes , wée maye well knowe , howe hee woulde The conformitie of Cible and out Lady . Turrita Cybloe . Virg. Aene. 6. Cyble wering a crowne . Iuno and Diana queene of heauen . luno luctnd . Ouid. Fast . 2. Plant. in Aulul Terent. in And Horat. in car . secu . Ourd . Meta. 9 S. Margaret Diand . Strongilio Diana the rounde . Praxitsles Plut. in num. haue the Virgin Mary to holde the place of Cyble , Iuno and Diana . For firste of all hée hath caused the Temple of Cyble and others to bée dedicated vnto hir . And as Cyble dyd weare a Crowne , made after the fashyon of a Towre , so hath hée founde the meanes to represente the Virgin Mary by a crowned Idoll , and to attrybute to hir that tytle , that the Idolaters dyd gyue vnto Iuno and Diana , callinge hir Quéene of Heauen : and also gyuinge vnto hir the office to ayde and helpe women that are in trauayle wyth chylde , whiche amonge the Panyms was gyuen vnto those two . Wherefore I beloeue that they haue added Saynt Margaret , to the ende there shoulde bée two , as well as the Panyms had . Furthermore , as the Panims had a Diana , whiche was called , Strongilios , that is to say , La Rotonde or the Round , bicause of the Kounde Image , whiche Praxitiles , the ercellent Paintour hadde made for them , and that the Romaines had the Temple of Vesta rounde . Also hath hée founde the practize to make for vs a Saynct Mary La Rounde , or Rotonde . I dooe remember that whyche Plinye wytnesseth and other Autheurs , howe that that Temple was also at the begynninge dedicated vnto Iupiter the reuenger , and afterwardes vnto all the other Gods , bycause that almoste all the Images of them all were Pliny . li. 34. c. 3 & ● . 36. c. 15 there .

Theophilus .

I beléeue that at the leastwyse Eusebius wpll not deme that whiche theire owne bookes doe wytnesse and confirme , namely Platine , Durand and Rergomeusis , In vi● Bontfac 4 Rat. dmi . eff. li. 9. Rub defest . emni . fancto . Boniface . 4. Phocas . Supl. chro . li. 10 The feasts of Martirs & Co sessors . Gregory . 4. Durant . Rat. Ami. off . h. 7. Rub. ●de fest omnium Sanct. Platt . in vita Grego . 4 Bergo . Suppl . chro . li. 11. wytnessinge the same , howe that first of all Pope Boniface the fourth , demaundeo that Temple of the Emperour Phocas , who after that hée had obtayned it , deoycated it vnto our Lady , and to all the Martyres , and commaunded that the feast shoulde bee celebrated the twelfe daye of the moneth of Maye , in the honour of the Mirgin Mary and of all the Martyres , for that cause it was called the feast of the Dhrgin Mary vnto the Spartyrs , bycause that then the feasts of the Confessors was not then made , vntyll the tyme of Pope Gregory the fourth , who transported and changed that feaste , from the twelfe of Pay , unto the firste daye of Nouember , and there dedycated not onely vnto the Apostles and Martyrs , but also vnto the Trmitie , vnto all the Angels , Confessors , Saints and Saintes in Paradise . And thys was done about the yeare 831. Now it is good reason , sith that all the Saints and Saintes of Paradyse haue theire feaste , that the ●oorc soules of Purgatorye shoulde haue theirs also .

For they haue a great deale more néede then the Saints which are already at rest , for to comforte and refresh them a lyttle . And therefore Odillo , that holye Abbot of Saint The feast of the dead Odillo . P. Damnia . Rat. diui. off . li. 7. Rub de off mort . Rerge . li. 12 Iohn . 16 Cluny moued with pittie & compassion , found and ordayned the firste , that after the feaste of all Saints , the commemoration of the dead shoulde bée also celebrated , first in Burgony , the whiche Pope Iohn the sirtene allowed , and commaunded to be obserued thorowout the other churches , about the yeare 982. Wherefore thou mayest knowe and iudge whether that suche Ceremonyes and manner of dooinges bée verye auncient , and whether Iesus Christe and hys Apostles , or the auncient Fathers haue bene the Authours and inuentours of them : and whether they are taken of their inutation . And to the tende thou shouldest haue better deuetyon vnto the feaste , I woulde gladlye thou shouldest understande , that it hathe bene the sauctitie and vertueo of that Pope Iohn , who hath allowed it and recommaunded and betoo'se it to his Churches , and the praises that Platine The manners & life of Pope Iohn . Plat in vitn , lon. 16. gaue vnto him , in writing his life , saying after this manner : that after that he was come vnto the Popedome , hée burned with a meruailous hatred against the Clergy . Wherfore he was greatly hated of them , chiefly bicause he gaue & bestowed all offices , all diuine and humaine things , vnto Beneflces & offices giuen by parentage . his parents , friendes & kinsfolke , not hauing any care of the honour of God : of which errour hee hath so put these in possession which came after him , that it is come vnto our age . He also witnesseth that in that time appeared a burning Comete , in signe and token of euills to come .

For then there was great famine and peltilence and great Bergo li. 12. Couicte . earthquakes : of which euills Platine attributeth all the fault , vnto the pride and rapacifie of the Pope , and for diso pising and contempninge of God and men . That was also about that time as the transubstantiation and the Transubstantiation . Berengarius . bergo . li. 12 Plat. in lo. 15 De cousec . dist. 2. ca. ego . Masses for the dead tooke great vertue and credite , and that Berengarius , whom his very enemies were constrayned to prayse , bicause of his doctrine and holy life , was constrayned to benie himselfe , bicause that hée loued rather to abide in the sentence of the auncient churche , touching the Eucharistia or sacrament , then to receiue that newe oppnion , of that monstrous transubstantiation , whiche hath bene the cause of so many Ioolatryes and horrible blasphemyes . Thou mayst thereby vnderstande friende Eusebius , the great goodnesse which almost all at one tyme are come into the Church , & what deuotion wée ought to haue , séeinge the estate of the same , and the authours of those goodly Ceremonies . It is not then wythout cause that the burninge Comete hath appeared , sith that the fire The signification of the Comete . of Purgatory is waren so hot & flameth so much . But now it is not needefull that & doe expound the causes whiche moued Odillo to doe that hée dyd , sith that they haue bene already touched before .

Hillarius .

It sufficeth now , friend Eusebius , that thou shouldest know & perceiue how you agrée with the auncient Romaines . There is not much difference , but in the tyme , in that that they haue taken Nouember in stéede of February and May .

Thomas .

Wée haue yet an other , in the month of Ianuary the next day after the feast of saint Hillary . But it continueth not all the day , as in Nouember , at the least in our Citie . I know not whether that be One other feast for the dead in lanuarye the custome in all other countryes , the feast continueth but in the morning , vntyll suche time as the hygh Masse is song . Ouid. Past . 1. Interessidie . Feasts cue in peces or a sunder

Hillarius .

That is not farre vyfferinge from February . Wée may put betwéene them that which the Romaines voe call Intercises , that is to saye , to cut a sunder , breake in two , and parted in the myddle : bicause that they were common , both to the Gods and men , and that we muste celebrate them , vntyll the diuine seruice bée ended : Afterwardes it was lawfull to euery one , all the residue of the daye to retourne to his labour & businesse . Also the Priests , in that day , after that one hath done vnto them the seruice of wine , and that they haue gathered their grapes in the morning , and receyued the offeringes in their Passe , the which by reason of those they singe it , doe gyue leaue vnto euery one to trauaile as much as hée wyll . I woulde gladly that they woulde voe so , in manye other feastes , in which they wyll not gyue leaue vnto the poore labourers to trauayle , although that they haue cleansed and emptyed Other feastes of the dead . their purse in the morning . There are also in many places other feastes for the dead , as the Sunday after Caster , and after Pentecost , that they voe aunswere thorowly to The mondayes dedicated vnto the dead . that which Romulus instituted : besides all the mondayes of all the wéekes which are dedicated vnto the dead . As touching the forbidding of mariage , it agréeth berye well The forbidding of mariage with the auncient Romaine lawe . It was forbidden the Romaines certeine daies in February , March , May , and Iune . But ours did begin them sooner , & continued their forbidding longer time . For during al the Aduent , almost a month , before The aduent the feast of the natiuitie , their lawe is in force , vntyll S. Hillary : by & by afterwards the Septuagesima beginneth in the which the forbidding beginneth againe , & coutinueth Septuagesima . ex concslie . hil . 33. 9. 4. Non oportes & . c. née vxorem . Rogatichs Decre . ext. do . for . The times of fastuings 33. 7. 4. the space of thrée score and tenne bayes , vntil the Octabis of Caster . Afterwardes come the Rogations , and Rouations in whiche lawe is in force vntill Trinitie Sunday , and almost thrée wéekes before Saincte Iohn , as the decrées voe contayne the foure times Vigiles , and all the dayes of fastings ioyned vnto them .

Theophilus .

Who is hée that doubteth , but that the same is a great curse and vengeaunce of God vppon the Christian people , to bée subiect vnto such a tyranuy of body and conscience , and to bee in worse condition then the Danims ? But they are well worthy of it . For sith that they had rather to be made a Panim then a Christian , of whom they would haue but the name , it is good reason that they bée subject vnto the lawes of the Panims , and that GOD voe shewe vnto them in effect that they are unworthy of the name they beare , sith that under the tytle of Christians they followe no other study nor religion but of the Panims . For the ignoraunce , superstition and curse is so greute , that notwithstanding that that miserable people is already so much oppressed and kept downe wyth tyranny , and that a great part of the time of holy mariage and of that holy Vrdmaunce of God is taken from them , yet . béeing not content wyth the same , they themselues of their owne wyll doe depriue themselues at other tymes and seasons which is not forbidden them , hauinge no other cause nor reason , but their superstition and enchauntments . For there are yet at this days many , yea , amonge those vnto whom the Gospell hath bene purely prenched , which make it a great doubte not onely to mary in the time which was forbidden by the priests , although they haue libertie to do it , but chicfly in that month of Pay : And for none other cause but for a foolish opinion & perswasion that they haue , that the goods & houschould stuffe of those that are maried in Day , are wicked and euill fortunate . And I cannot iudge that that opinion came any other way , then of that superstition of the Romaines of which thou hast spoken off .

Hillarius .

I beléeue no lesse . But the better to trye out that matter let vs consider now the holinesse of those goodlye 33. 44. ca. Non oportet & ca. Non liect ex conel . La●●he● . & m. irli pap . Lent. Shrostide . Saint Galiffre . Saint Pansard Bacchanales Baechus The feast of fooles . Qutriu●les Ouid. Fast . 2 laws . First of al the Septuagesima , Sexagesima & Quinquegesima , dofal commonly in these three months , Ianuary , February , & March. Afterwards Lent draweth on who continueth many times euen vnto the moneth of April●the which for his entering in , hath his Shrouetide , that is to say , the great feast and solempnitie of saint Galiffre and Saint Pansard which is in stéede of Bacchanales , the feast of God Bachus , the God of drunkennesse , and of Comus the God of the gluttons , I haue also forgotten that the Romaines did celebrato the feast of fooles which was called the Quirinales the eightéene day of February ?

Thomas .

Did it continue many dayes ?

Hillarius .

It had but one day , which namely was dedicated vnto it , but if they would do him no wrong , it ought to continue al the yeare . At the least wise , from Christmas vnto Shrouetide , it is not euill kept among the papisticall Christians , and chiefly The feast of the kings . the day of the kings , and the others following .

Theophilus ,

We doe honour them to much to call it The feast of mad men . the feast of the fooles . For it is more worthy to be called the feast of madde men , and of those that are out of theire wittes .

Hillarius .

But for to retourne vnto the Bacchanalos , to Sainct Pansard , and to the forbiddinge of mariage , Genes. 2. d 23 1. Cor. 7. ● . 2 Heb. 13. ● . 4 Hist. trip . ● . 2 ca. 13. ●o. 323. dist. 3 ● . c. Nicena . ought it not to haue suffired the Pope to haue ( against the word of God , and the auncient Counsayle , namelye of Nice ) forbidden at all times mariage vnto all those of the Church , Priestes , Moonke ● and Nonnes , but that hée must also extende his crueltie and tyranny , vppon all other estates , almost the one halfe of the yeare ? Howe muche more tollerable and reasonable is the auncient lawe of the Romaines then thys new tyranny ? What reason haue they to allow it ?

Theophilus .

That same of the heretickes Manacheans , Manicheans . August . de he●●● ad quid 〈◊〉 dema . Cal. Rho let aut , 26. ●● , 20 who haue sustituted new Ceremonies as those heere , and haue forbidden mariage , and the vse of certayne meates , affirming that by those thinges , one obtayneth the holye Ghost , whom also Tatianus hath followed , who was the authoure and Prince of the secte of the Eucratistes , which Herom . Eucratists . Tatianus . were called by that name bicause they abstained from wines and from certaine meates and from mariage . For Eucratistes signifieth asuch as sober , the which Seuerus hath augmented , of whome they are called also Seuerians . Seuerus . Plat in vit. pi● . 1.

Hillarius .

The Priests and Moonkes are very much afrayde , leaste the race of such people shoulde perishe . Therefore haue they made so many lawes and haue trauayled so muche to maintaine their errors .

Eusebius .

When God woulde giue his lawe in the Exo. 19. c. 15 Abstinence & separation from women 1. Reg. 21. a. 4. Dauid & Abi melech . loel . 2. d. 16 mountaine of Sinay , did not Moses admonishe and warne the people to sanctifie and make themselues holy , and that they should not come néere their wiues for thrée dayes ? And what did Dauid signifie by the aunswere that hée made vnto Abimelche , when he had saide vnto him that he had no common bread , but that which was hallowed , and that he asked , whether that he and his youngmen were cleane and kept themselues from woemen . And Dauid answered the Priest and saide vnto him , of a trueth woemen hath bene locked vp from vs about a thrée dayes ? Furthermore when the Prophet Ioel exhorted the people vnto penaunce , fastings and prayers , wherfore saide hée amonge other thinges , let the bridegroume goe foorth of his chamber , and the bride out of hir closet ? Doth not the holy Scripture declare sufficiently vnto vs , how we ought to dispose and giue our selues vnto penaunce , fastings and prayers , chiefely when the solemne feastes doe approche ? and that when wee must goe vnto the Lords table for to The preparation the lords table . receiue his precious body and bloud , is it not then requisite , that we shoulde abstayne both from woemen , and from all other carnall pleasures .

Theophilus .

I deny not , but that God requireth of vs , a great honesty , movesty and helmes , and that we sheult abstaine , not only from things which of themselues are euill and wicked , and by he● forbidden at all times , but it is also requisite some time , to abstaine from things which Abstinence from things l●wfull . 33. 9 4. ca. Quo●●escunque Ambr. ser. de adunt . 1. The. 4. a 4 1. Pet. 3. a. 1 1. Cor. 6. c. 15. ●●he . 5. a. ● To keepe his vessell in houor are lawfull & permitted , when there is a question of some thing of great unportance : if such things might anything at all be a let vnto vs . And when the auncient Doctors haue spoken of such things , they haue so vnderstanded it . But although that God desireth that euery one shoulde know , how to kéepe his vessell in holines and honour , & that none do defile his owne body , nor his wiues , nor of any other whosoeuer it bée , thorow to great concupiscence of the flesh , and that he also requireth in the holy mariage , a Christian continency , chastity and sobriety , as from wine and other creatures . Must he therefore forbid mariage vnto some for euer , and vnto other some a great parte of the time , without excepting any person whatsoeuer hée or shée bée , of what estate , condition or infirmity that may bee in them ?

Hillarius .

You doe wronge Theophilus . For they The Popes dispensations . are not so rigorus as you make them to bée , and haue not such strayte and rigorus lawes , but that for money they will release and dispense with it . But whiche is more , I beléeue that who soeuer will bring money vnto that Pope , and agrée with him , that he will dispense with the childe to mary with his mether , the father with his daughter : the brother with his sister : without hauing regarde vnto consanguinitie , diuine lawes nor humaine .

Theophilus .

I doubt it not , except the shame and feare of men do let and hinoer it sooner then the feare of God .

Hillarius .

By what right shal he refuse vnto others , that which sometime some amongst them are permitted ? For which I wil haue none other witnes at this time but the Cpitath of Lucretia , that daughter of Pepe Alexander , the whiche was made in Latine after this manner and to Pope Alexander this effect .

Within this tombe here now doth sleep , who had to name Lucrece The Epieath of Lucre●● In all things shee compard was , to I hass whore of Grece . Whom Alexander Pope of Rome , when she remaind in life Esteemed as his daughter in law , and vsed as his wife . Theophilus .

I demaunde of thée friende Eusebius , if God hath forbiden mariage vnto euery person , estates and conditions , or in any times and seasons , wherefore doth that Pope dispense for money ? For that which God hath forbidden and prohibited , cannot be lawefull for any money that one can disburse . If God hath not forbidden it , wherfore doth he forbyd that which God hath permitted ? you cannot deny , but that he is a Tyrant , theese and a piller of the poore people .

Hillarius .

I will resolue thy doubte and will vanquish thée by a plaine and cléere induction , wilt thou not Induction . graunt vnto mée , that God is aboue the law , and that he is subiect vnto none .

Theophilus .

I do not gaine say it .

Hillarius .

Afterwards , do you not confesse , that God which made that law , can dispense with it at his pleasure , and that where there is dispensation of God , there is no more lawe ?

Theophilus .

I also agrée vnto thée in that .

Hillarius .

For where there is no law , as Sainct Paul Rom. 4. ● . 15 witnesseth there is no transgression , nor sinne .

Theophilus .

I do nowe perceiue where vnto thou wilt come . I well perceiue that you minde to conclude , that sith that the Pope is God in the earth , he may wel dispense with those lawes that he giueth here in earth , & that after his dispensation there remaineth no more sinne , vnto them which offende against his lawes , when those lawes are taken from them , by him that gaue it them . But of this thy conclusion , I wil bring foorth yet another consequence , by the which I will proue , that he which doth against the lawes of that Pope , which haue no foundation by the worde of God , doth not sinne but against the Pope , & not against God , for To sin againste the Pope and agaynst God . there is no transgression against God , but in that wheroff there is a law of God . Now there is in none of all those things wheroff , wee haue spoken : any law giuen of God . Wherfore who so that maryeth in those times prohibited , he sinneth not against God , but against that Pope only ? not that I wil deme , but that we must obey that higher powers & rulers , not only bicause of feare the we should haue of them , & of the power that they haue ouer vs , but also for conscience Rom. 13. ●● 〈◊〉 & obediences vnto Magultaces Chay for consentence sake , as the holy Apostle teacheth vs , giuing vs thereby to vnderstand that we ought to obey our Princes & Lords , with a good conscience , although that we feare not they ? punishment and bengeaunce , bicause we must serue them as those which serue God and not men , whiche is but his instrument and seruaunt . But the same ought to be vnder standed , in that wherein the power is lawfull , and that one may obey it , without hurting the soule , & perill of conscience , notwithstanding that one shoulde receiue damage , either in bodie or goods . For in another case & condition Col 3 d 13. the aunswer of the Apostle abydeth alwayes firme . It is better to obey God then men .

Hillarius .

I well agrée vnto that thou sayest : But thou Act. 5. f. 19. hast not yet hit the white . For I am a more subtill Logyeioner then thou thinkest that I am , nor I stay not only vpon common arguments . And therfore let vs retourne againe vnto nune induction , the which I haue not yet ended . 〈◊〉 God the Pope 13 Iohn . 14. d 30 I am very wel contented to confesse vnto thée , that the Pope is a God in the earth , but in that sence , as the diuell is called in the holy Scripture the prince of this worlde : 1. Cor. 3. 24. the God of this worlde : the ruler of darkenes : or in that sence , as wee do gods the Idols & straunge Gods. But there is yet a greater God and more puissant then Ephe. 1. d. 20 he , vnto whom he and all other such Gods like vnto him , are subiect and obedient . Now I demaunde of thée where The e. de of mans Isa. to ought we to referre the ende of mans life ?

Theophilus .

Unto him from whom it tooke his béeginning . Genes. 1. a 1 Genes. 1. 2 7 Esa. 41. 3. 2. Pro. 16 2 4 Act. 14. c. 15. Act. 17. f. 24. Bphe . 1. 2. 1

Hillarias .

It is then of God , who is the beginning and ende of all thinge , who hath made al things for himselfe , of whom all proceeded , and vnto whom it muste ●t urne againe .

Theophilus .

It is very true .

Hillarius .

I demaund of thee more ouer , vnto what ende doest thou thinke , that all those popishe ceremonies do tende : As for mée , I can The ende of the Popish lawes perceiue but that they haue taken their sight & regarde to none other ende but vnto the money . If there bee any which will deny it , I will proue it like a good Logicioner , the cause by his effects . Sith then that the finall cause is the money , vnto whose honoure all these lawes do referre themselues , and that the same is the author , I do also conclude , The great God of the people . Mammon Mat. 6 c. 24. Luc. 16. e. 13. that it is the God , vnto whome all these thinges ought to be brought : the which Iesus Christ calleth Mammou , if you wil know his name in that Hebrewe or Siriake tongue : Dr if you had rather in Greeke , we will cal him Plutus : whom Aristophanes magnifieth so much , that he Plutus . Aristoph . in Pluto . saith , that there is no God so great , no not lupiter hymselfe , vpon which he hath not rule and dominion , & which is not subiect vnto him .

Theophilus .

That agréeth not euill , with the witnesse of Salomon , saying : vnto money are all thinges obedient .

Hillarius .

If you will in like manner giue it a latine Eccle. 10. d. 19 name , and to make it a Goddsse , you may call it Pecunia , The goddes Pecunta . that is money , as the auncient Latinists , who haue made of it a Goddesse . Wherevnto agréeth very well the common translation , in that place which you alledged of Salomon , saying , vnto money are all things obedient , Wherefore I am abashed , of that whiche the Poet luuenal hath Cal. leo . aut . li. 21. ca. 34. spoken , for that men haue not made vnto it a Temple , nor consecrated any Aulter , sith that it is so puissant a Goddesse , vnto whom is attributed the title of the Dmnipotent and altogether mightie , whiche belengeth vnto God alone . For it is commonly sayd : Money doth althings .

Theophilus .

Sainct Augustine following the authoritie of Varro , also saith that the auncients haue called that God , Aesculanus . in Latine , Aesculanus , because that the first money that was made , was of Brasse .

Hillarius .

You may already perceiue , that Plutus and Pluto were bretheren : or at the least cosin Germaines : sauinge that the one reigned vppon the earth , and the other vnderneath the earthe . Nowe forasmuche as that GOD , whether you call him Mammon , Plutus , Pluto , Aesculanus , or Pecunia , bée the Authoure , and lawe gyuer of all those lawes , by good right and reason hee maye dyspence with them . And when they haue his dispensation , there remayneth no more sinne , as in respecte of the Pope .

For hee dispenseth with more greater things , insomuch that hée will not suffer the vse of mariage , to eate flesh , and white meates , but that one hadde néede , to sell GOD , to eate , and to doe that hee woulde doc: I meane the Gods , that hee himselfe hathe made , and of whiche his Priestes call themselues the makers , whiche yet neuerthelesse are but the creatures of the Selling of God . The Creators of the Creator . Stella derc . The creators of me Pope Pope : Do not the most greatest Cardinals whiche for suche doe acknowledge and confesse themselues .

Wherein there standeth a merueilous case , the whiche Solin hathe forgotten , when that hee made his booke of the meruaples and wounders of the worlde .

For that is a case the like whereoff , was neuer seene , that the Creator , shoulde be a Creature , and the Creature , a Ceator : as it appeareth by that that the Pope is the Creator of the Cardinals , his Creatures : Afterwards the Cardinals , his Creatures are Creators of their Creator ? For they doe create and make the Pope . After the same manner woulde they dce with their God whiche they make and vnmake , afterwards do make him againe as they liste .

Theophilus .

For my parts , I will net much reply against thy solution : But I know not whether that Eusebius wil be contented . And therefore I will shewe vnto him other reasons . If the Pope and the Priestes doe loue somuch contynencye and chastytye , as they make a shewe , wherefore haue they not rather followed the counsell of Saint Paule , then to sorge and make newe lawes altogether contrary both to the Aposlolicall doctrine , and the lawe of God ?

Who is hée that better knoweth man , his vertue , constance and continencye , or his infirmitie , fragilitye and incontinency , then GOD who hath made and fashioned Genes. 1. 2. him , and who hathe throughly proued him ?

Then if God who best did know the burthen of man , Psa. 139. 2. 1. that hee himselfe woulde not restraine him by lawes of continencye , whiche myght haue béene an occasion of sinne and incontinencie , but hée hathe ordeyned the holye mariage for a remedye , the whiche hée woulde The ordinance and vse cl mariage Mat. 9. b. 9 1. Cer. 7. b11 Heb 13. a. 4. haue common vnto all estates , and vnto all sorte of people whiche haue not the gyste of contynencye , and that it was permitted at all tymes and seasons .

Then wherefore is it that those here will compell so longe time men and woemen to liue chaste and doe seperate the Spouse from the Spouses , the Dusbande from the wyfe , for to giue vnto them occasion to fall into whoredome ? And they do not the same for two or thrée dayes as the Israelites dyd , when GOD woulde manyfest himselfe vnto them in the Mounte Sina .

They hadde good occasion to sanctifie and prepare The answere to the place of the 19. of Exodus . themselues for to see and beholde that greate maiestie of God , and to receiue that holye lawe , that hée would giue vnto them . And yet neuerthelesse Moses did not assigne vnto them but thrée dayes , for to seperate themselues from their wines .

Abimelech required no more of Dauid and hys The place of the 1. of Samuel . 21. li. 5 The halowed bread . Mat. 12. a. 3. compaignions : although that hee did giue vnto them of the halowed breade , whiche was not lawefull to eate but for the Priestes of the lawe onelye . And yet those thinges are not happened , but for one tyme . They haue not made lawes nor rules yearely or perpetuall , nor common vnto all men .

In like manner also Ioel gaue not a prefixte day vnto The place of loel . 2. c. 12. Exortation vn to ●●pentance . the Israelites , but aomonyshed and athorted them only to returne vnto the Lord , and to leaue off all other things , and to forget all carnall pleasures and delites , for to runne vnto his mercy thorow true repentaunce infastinges & prayers , to the ende he may withdraw his beatings and scorgings , the which hee had alreadie stretched foo●th euer them , But he compelled no man . Such erhortations and admonitions are very honest and requisite in the Churche , chiefely in the times of calamities & miseries , when God threateneth vs with his furour & Iudgement , But it is more then necessarie to follow the moderation the which Sainct Paul , in such case hath vsed , chiefly The counsel & moderat●● of S. Paul . 1. Cor. 7 b 11 in this time now , for that the worlde is so much corrupted and depraued , and somuch subiect vnto hir carnal affections . The Apostle knowing mans infirmitie , dursse not forbid mariage to any man , of what qualitie soeuer he were off : not only for a day : but admonished and commaunded , by Gods authoritie , vnto all those who haue not the gift of continency and chastity , for to reframe themselues The gift of ●ōtinen●●c without beeing polluted & defiled , neither in their bodyes or soules , thorow the burning concupiscence and worke of the fleshe , to mary for to auoyde fornication & whosedome , and for to keepe their bodies , hearts , and consciences Seperation of the husbande and the wife for a time . in all puritie and holines . And he woulde not onely suffer , that the husbande and the wife shoulde seperate themselues , the one from the other , ercept it be but for a small & little time , yea for to watche vnto fasting and prayer . And vppon such condition , that the seperation be not ouer long , but that by and by they returne together againe , least that Sathan , by that meanes do finde occasion to tempte them , thorow theyr incontinency , and to ●istame their concupiscence : And that thorow the fragilite of the fleshe , the one or the other of the parties do not fall into some faulte & inconuenience . And the cause wherefore that holy Apostle hath written after that sort of those matters , that is bicause ( as he saith ) he would not put the haulter about any To put the halter about ones n●cke . mans neeke : giuing vs thereby to vnderstand , that those whiche forbyd or hinder the holy mariage , doe put the rope aboute the necke of those vnto whome they haue forbidden , and dooe put them in peryll of dampnation . Wherefore I am meruaylously abashed to thincke , to what ende those worshypfull prelates of the Churche , haue thought , in forbiddinge the mariage and espousals vnto all , and for so longe time : and that the stewes continued open at all tymes . Doe they not well declare thereby that they doe followe the lawes and decrees of that greate whoore of Babilon , the mother of fornication ? Apoc. 17. 21

Eusebius .

Thou condempnest thy selfe by thine owne woordes . For howe wyll they proue the whooredome , when they require continencye and chastitie in mariage ? Thou regardest not , that in condempninge the Prelates , whiche are nowe in the Church , and following thy affections thou doest also condempne the auncient doctors and counsayles . For howe manye tymes Ambr. s● . de aduent . & in Epist. 1. Cormt . 33. 9. 4. c. setatis quoties●unque , Christiano . Qu● . haue Sainct Amborse , Chrisostome , Sainct Hierome , Saincte Augustine and Saincte Gregory , erhorted the maryed folke vnto contineneye , and to absteyne from carnall woorkes in the tyme of fastynge and prayers , and on the solempne feastes : and chieflye vppon those dayes that wee muste goe vnto the Lordes table .

Theophilus .

Peraduenture , friende Fusebius , thou speakest better then thou thinckest : Thou dyddest not speake altogether euill , that they haue erhorted : but there is greate dyfference betwéene erhortation and forbiddinge , counsayle and commaundement . I denye not but that they haue made such erhortations and admonitions vnto the people , as the holy Apostle did vnto the Corinthians . Wherein wée may followe them , euen as they haue followed the Apostle : who as wytnesseth Sainte Augustine hymselfe , woulde not onelye Li. de adulte . coniug. . 33. 9. 4. c. Apostolus suffer that the maryed persons shoulde make any seperation from the bed , at no manner of tyme , not for to watche vnto fastinge and prayer , but thorowe the consent of the one and the other . Forasmuche then as the auncient Doctors doe follow that rule , wée wyll not speake gaynst them , if they vse it onelye for admonytions and erhortations , leauinge in such case euerye one at his lybertie , wythout layinge vnto anye man bonde , waight or necessitie , which may induce hym to sinne , and that hys infirmitye cannot beare it . For euen as wée ought not to constraine and compell man vnto more greater continencie and chastity then hée may haue , and that it is not lawfull for hym to vse the holye maryage which God hath gyuen vnto hym for a remedye , so wee must not condempne those vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more greater gyste of continencye , if they vse it to the honour of God , both out of mariage and also in mariage . For the honestye and continencie cannot bée too great in vs .

Hillarius .

No truely , if it bée truely & wythout saynednesse , and that in stéede of chastitie , there bée not secrtnesse and priuinesse , and that one doo not receiue the rule Chastitie and secretnesse . The Monkish prouerbe and the prouerbe of the Moonkes , saying : Si non caste tamen caute : that is , if not chastlye , yet let it bée priuely .

Theophilus .

So dooe I vnderstande it . But on the contrarye , as soone as one commeth to restraine the faithfull more then God woulde , and that the Apostle durste not take it in hande , there is no man of so great authoritie that I can allowe . For we cannot denie , but that among the aunciences there were some more rigorous and contrary vnto mariage then was lawfull , and chiefly Hierome contrary vnto mariage Hierome , who so muche praised virginitie and wydowhoode , that oftentimes hée dyd iniury vnto maryage : And it séemeth that hée would condempne it . As it appeared in his writinges against Iouimanus and manye others . The superstition of Gregory 33. 9. 4. ca. vir . Sent. li. 4. dist. 31. Sed sorte . Also thou canst not ercuse Gregory of superstition , who sayth , that the man whiche sléepeth with his owne wife , ought not to enter into the Church , excepte that hée bée firste washed wyth water , bycause that although that the mariage be permitted of God , yet neuerthelesse man may not haue the companie of his wyfe , without sinninge some thing . Wherefore hée hathe néede to purge hymselfe . And affirmeth that that custome hathe bene of longe tyme receyued and allowed in the Romish Church .

Hillarius .

Neuerthelesse I cannot vnderstande , vppon what place of the Scripture that custome hath taken his The Iewish wasshings Mat. 15. a. 9 Marc. 7. b 13 Pers. Saty. 2. foundation , except vppon the traditions of the Pharises and the washings of the Iews or Panims , and vpon the doctrine of Persius , saying .

And for to doe as I thee bid fulfill this iust request In Tiber early plunge thy head , euen twise or thrise at lest , And take the riuer water then , and all besprinckle thee , By force and vertue of the which , the night shall purged bee . Theophilus .

But when one hath grieuouslye sinned , can the water purge and make him cleane ? I doubte not but that that superstition is yet of that which is left of the errour of those who altogether dyd condempne and forbid mariage . But yet what superstition soeuer myght haue bene in some of the auncients , yet neuerthelesse they forbidde not the mariage , nor the espousalles , vnto those whiche were not maryed , in what time soeuer it were , as afterwardes it was forbidden by theire successors , 33. 9. 4. ex concilio Laodicens . Hilerd . Martini Pape . Nicol. ad consult Bulgar . ca. non oportet . Non licet . Nec vxorem extra . de Ma. contrac . in the counsailes of Laodocia , Hilerdien , and in that of Pope Martin and Nicolas , who did forbyd to celebrate maryages in those times aboue lymited , and dyd commaund to seperate for a time , those that shoulde doe the contrary .

Hillarius .

It is but reason , sith that they haue begunne the daunce and morishe , to ende it altogether . Syth that they haue alreadye determined and concluded that in the Dbsequies , Mortuaryes , Funeralles , Feastes and in good deedes for the deade , to followe the auncyent Romaines theire auncestors , that they woulde also kéepe the other dependaunces of those feastes and religions . Syth then that they woulde haue their Februales . they muste haue also their Bacchanales which they celebrated at Shrouetide , and that then the mariage The conformity and desormitie of Bacchanales & Shroftide should bée forbydden , and the spouse seperated from the espouses , and the husbande from hys wyfe , as the Panims hadde a custome , for to prepare themselues vnto the Bacchanales . But there is a small dyfference , in that that the Panyms dyd firste theire Lente , afterwardes their Shrouetide . For when they woulde consecrate themselues for to enter and bée receyued in the Religyon of Bacchus , or woulde prepare and sanctifie themselues for to celebrate the feaste of Bacchanales Preparation vnto the Bacchanales Diomsiales and Dionysiales , they dyd abstayne themselues a certeyne tyme , to touche a woman , and also to lye wyth their lawfull wyues , as Ouid wytnesseth , wrytinge of the seperation of Hercules , after this manner . Ouid. Fast . 2.

Now after that they feasted had they gaue themselues to rest , And laide them downe in beds apart as pleasde their fansie best .

They did the same for to prepare themselues more deuoutly to solemnize the day and feaste due vnto God Bacchus which planted the Wine . It was ordeined to kéepe chastitie and continence and to absteine at the least tenne daies together , and after to wash and purifie themselues in the tenth day : But they dyd recompence and acquite afterwardes with all dissolution , whooredome and all abhomination , the abstinenco that they made before , as one maye see and thorowelye knowe by that whiche Titus Liuius hath written . But our sauage and brutishe Christians beginne by Shronetide , the Tit. Liui. dec . ● li. 9. Sauage Christians . which hathe his begynninge immedyatly after Christmas , and they continue it alwayes in augementynge the dyssolutions more and more , vntyll Shroue● sundaye , Shroue sund●ye . and the feastyuall daye of Saynct Galissre , for to beginne the Lent wyth better douotion , and to prepare themselues more deuoutiye vnto the Lordes table , to the which yet they beare not so much reuerence , as the Panims dyd vnto their Bacchanales . For the most part of the Priestes themselues , who will not mary the newe maryed folke , and which doe seperate the husbande from the wyfe , wyth much a dooe they can bée wythout their The poseall Masse of the whores of the Priestes . whoores vpon Caster day : But doe customely cause the pot to bée heated at the fire , and doe make ready the dinner whilest that Monsieur the Canon , the Curate or ●iear maketh a good face or countenaunce in the Church , and administreth to others . Wherefore I greatly feare least that during the time that they caused the wyues to bée seperated from their husbandes , they doe play ( if they can finde the meanes ) such a craft and deceite vnto the poore & simple husbands , as the God Faunus dyd thinke to The craste and● deceit which● Faunus did thinke to doe to Hereules being seperated from his wise playe wyth Hercules whilest that he dyd lye alone being seperated from hys wyues bed , for to prepare himselfe to the solempnitie of the Bacchanales . For that good wyse man dyd not thincke to fayle ( accordinge to the witnesse of that good doctour Ouid and diuine , before alledged ) but Fast . 2. to goe and sanctifie the wyfe of Hercules in hir bed , if hée had not deceiued himselfe , in goinge to the bed of Hercules in stéede of the other that hee sought , in the which hee dyd finde Hercules , who made him to fall backward .

God knoweth whether suche fortune shoulde happen alwayes vnto the husbandes when that such Faunus dooe come to sanctific their beddes , if they should make them oftentimes to stumble wyth their heads forwarde . They The blessings of the bed of the spouse . The Faunes , Satyres & Buls of the christianitie may well goe to blesse the beddes of the sponses , for to learne the way , and to vnblesse them afterwardes . For those are the true Faunes , Satyres and common Bulles , who wyll leaue no woman vndefiled , if thée woulde not bée ruled by others , but by them . But in theyre case there is no fable , as in Poetry , for they laye on in good earnest wythout fayninge . Wherefore their Doctours Chanesi . li. de 〈◊〉 . which compare the Priestes vnto the Cocke , dooe no wronge . For as there muste bée but one Cocke , for a greate companye of Pullettes and Hennes , so is one Prieste or Moonke in a Towne or Parishe inough , for to kéepe woemen from béeing barren . They wyll not leaue off , if they may possible , but to laye Cgges : But when they haue layde , and hatched them , let hym that lysi bringe vppe the Chéekins . They dooe altogether contrarye to the Capons , whome one causeth to nourysh & bring vp the young ones which they haue not hatched . They gyue that office vnto the husbandes , and they shall bée lyke vnto the Coockowe , who goeth awaye after that hée hath layed in an other Birdes neaste , and taketh no care who shall bringe vp hir younge ones , What sayest thou friende Eusebius ? Mée thincketh that I haue alreadye declared vnto thée by the occasion of the feast of the deade , the goodly conformyties , betwéene your Relygion and the Panyms , touchinge the purifications and sanctyfications . But I wyll yet declare vnto thée others , whiche dooe procéede of that same begynninge , or of one kindred . From whence C●●dlemas day . doest thou thincke that the feaste of the Purificatyon of our Ladye hathe taken hys originall and begynninge ?

Eusebius .

I doe beléeue that it was ordayned in the honour of God and the Uirgin Mary , and in remembraunce of the presentation that shée made of hir sonne Iesus Christ , and of the goodly woorkes of God , whiche were done that day . Luc. 2. c. 2● .

Theophilus .

I doe not doubte , but that the auncyent Fathers , haue instituteh manye feastes to a good intent , chiefly for two causes . The ffrst , for to drawe The cause of ● institution of lea●● awaye the Panims and Iewes by lyttle and lyttle , chiefely those which had alreadye receyued the Gospell , from their Idolatrye and accustomed superstityon , and the better to plucke from them , that whiche they thought they coulde not well obtayne , excepte they dyd chaunge them into some other Ceremonyes : to the ende that they should not thincke that they were The insirmitie of man . altogether wythout relygion and diuine seruice . For they were yet verye weake , nor could ? not easely● forget their olde customes . Wherefore the auncient Fathers haue studyed and determined to chaunge the I●●●ishe and Panishe Ceremonies into some other fashions more Christian lyke . Therefore haue they ordayned many feastes , the whiche they woulde haue made to serue for remembrances and recoroations of the benefites of God , and for examples , whiche myght edyfie the Church or congregation , for to abolyshe the remembraunce of the Idolls and straunge Gods , whiche were so muche rooted in their heartes . Afterwardes , they dyd sée by experience , that there was greate infirmytie , rudenesse and ignoraunce in the most greatest part of the people , and that if they had not some feastes and Ceremonyes , many woulde followe those of the Iewes and Panims , and haue fellowshippe wyth their sacrifices , and woulde sette but little by the preachinge of the woorde of GOD . For there are manye , whiche woulde neuer sette their foote wythin the Church doore , and woulde neuer bée founde in the Christian assembles , if there were neuer any feaste . And so by that The contemning of the Gospell meanes they are enforced to let and stoppe such euylls and daungers . Wherefore they haue bene constrained to ordaine feastes containinge the commemoration of the principall workes of God , and the principal articles of the faith , the better to imprint into the heartes of euery one , to the ende that there should be none amonge the Christians , but at the least he should know the principall pointes of the Christian religion , vpon his fingers endes : But their institution hath not taken so good effect nor suche issue as they looked it should haue done . For man is of such nature , that if he be without outward Ceremonies , either he will become altogether without God , & religion : Man without meanes , & how he vseth the out ward things or else hée wyll forge and inuent a newe , after hys owne brayne . On the coutrarye , if one gyue bym ceremonies , for to holde hym in religion , and in hys office , hée wyll make of them Gods and Idolls , and will put all hys trust in the outwarde visible , and materyall ceremonye and wyll forsake the principall and spyrituall thinges , signified by those ceremonies : and in stéede to serue hym as for degrées and shewes for to attaine vnto the true spirituall religion , and to enter . into the true Temple of God , stayeth hymselfe vppon the degrées , and before the gate , and wyll not enter into the house : As wée sée by experience in the people of Israel , who haue alwayes more estéemed the exteriour ceremonies , then those by which God woulde teache them . Now if the same be happened vnto the people of God , and to the Ceremonies ordayned of God hymselfe . as all the Prophetes doo wytnesse , what may happen vnto the ceremonies and traditions inuented by men ? Especially when the Churche hath false Prophetes , or neglygent and couetous pastors and Shepheardes , whiche haue no care of the healthe and saluation of the people , and whiche doe not trauayle to pull awaye the superstytion and Idolatry , but rather to augement and increase it , for to abuse the ignoraunce of the poore simple people to their profite and filthy gayne : cursed and too execrable is that which wée at this daye dooe proue and féele .

For in stéede to haue abolyshed by the feast of Candlemas the olde Idolatrye , one hath augmented and confirmed it a greate deale more : the whiche is so muche the more daungerous , that the maske and dysguisinge of Sathan is better paynted out , and hath founde out names and tytles more goodly and fauourable , as is that of the blessed Virgin the mother of Iesus Christe , as hathe bene alreadye touched , in speakinge of Pantheon .

Hillarius .

Let vs consider all the matter worde by worde , and thou shalt sée , whether that in the feast of The feasts of that Panims contay●ned in the feast of Candel● mas . Candlemas we doe not celebrate the Februales , Lupercales , Proserpinales , and Florales , of the Panims . First the name of the Purisication agréeth very wel with the name of February and of the Februales , which doe also signifie Purification February Februales purifications . Afterwardes that purification is celebrated in the honour of the virgin Mary , in whose name , men doe blesse , consecrate , and be are Candells , Tapers of War and Torches . The Panims had all the same , Lupere●es Ser● . Pe●●p . ●●no Februla . Felrual● . Februala Pu●●●cations of woemen The whips of the Lupele les . The 〈◊〉 of luno . The robes & gowns of the priests doing myracles or the like in their Lupercales in that same time andmoneth , and in the feast of the Godd else luno , the whiche they called Februla , Februalis , & Februata , which signifieth purified or purisicatiue , bicause that the purifications were made in hir feast , and chiefely the same of the women , the which the Lupercall Priests do purisie , beating them vpon hands and backe , with scourges and whippes made of Goates skill , and with the cloake of Iuno , with which they doe couer them , chiefely for to make them beare children . But I am certaine , that for to do such miracles , the gownes and cloakes of the Priests and Moonkes haue more vertue , then the same of luno , and I béeléeue that the women which haue bene couered with it , shal bée barren by nature , except they retourne more sertile and fruitfull .

Theophilus .

Sainct Augustine maketh also mention of a Goddesse named Meria , whom he also calleth Februa , Meria , bicause that the Panims do beléeue that shée purgeth the woemen of their issue of bloude , and stayeth them euery moneth , and chiefely after the conception and deliuering of childe . But there is no doubt but that was not that luno , of whom thou speakest off .

Hillarius .

Wee cannot doubt of it : for that office was also assigned vnto hir , and for that cause they haue called Fluon . ● . it Fluona , by reason of the Flur and issue of bloud . But our Priests haue now giuen that office vnto the virgyn Mary , and do cause the woemen to be purified after their deliuery , when that they are rysen from their bed as the Iewes dyd . As though Iesus Christ had not bene yet come , and as though wee were vnder the Ceremouies of the lawe Theophilus , Durand also witnesseth that in that same feast the Romaines from fiue yere to fiue yere , the first day Durand . Ral. d●●● off . it . ● . Rub. le purif . of Februarie did purifie all the night the Townes with Tapers & Torches lighted in the honour of Februa the Goddesse , the Mother of God Mars , whem they accompted for the God of Battell , to the ende he we ulde giue vnto Mars . them victorie . And they call also that feast Ambuibales , bicause of the processions , in which they cary that hostes and Amburbales . Sacraments that they do sacrifice with , and in like manner the sacrifices which they make by the Townes & Villages , and rounde about the same , and by the fields , as wée do in the Rogation wéeke and on Christmas day . Furthermore , Regations men did sacrifice that same very time vnto Pluto who for that cause , as witnesseth Isidorus , was named Februus , and they did in like manner do sacrifice vnto other Februus . pluto . Sacratices vnto the infernall gods . Watchings & Vigdes for the dead . The Cardelmas of Ceres and Preserpma . Lactan. de fal . religl . li. 1. ca. 12. infernall Gods , for the soules of their auncesters , and offered vnto them hostes . Watching all night , singing Vigiles with Tapers and Torches burning , to the ende they should haue pitie and compassion of the poore soules that be dead . The women also , celebrated the feast of Candlemas in the honour of the Goddesse Ceres , and of hir daughter Proserpina , bicause that Pluto , that God of hell , for hir beautie had rauished at the beginning of that moneth , & that hir mother Ceres séeking for hir by hils & valleys , béeing lighted in the night with torches & lampes in Actna that hil of Sicile , as that pocticall fables do witnes .

Hillarius .

Theu hast all ●dged Durand , the master of that papisticall ceremonies , & I will alledge vnto thée an other , whiche is of no lesse credit , of whom thou hast already often times heard the witnes , the which I do bring forth againe , for confirmation of the words of Durand , out of that booke in which he describeth the feast of Ceres , saying amonge other of his words as followeth .

Yea there in steede of flaming lampe East . 4● the Pine tree they did vse , Hereoff the torch then graunted was for Ceres sacred Muse . Theophilus .

For that cause ( saith he ) that in remembrance Pope ●ergius of the same , at the beginning of the moneth of February , they purified the Cittie , and went in procession rounde about the same . In stéede whereoff Pope Sergius hath commaunded & established the feast of the Purification of our Lady . And if thou thinke that I speake without booke , and Rat. Diui. off . 7. Rub. de pu●● . that I haue inuented the same of my selfe , I do send thée vnto your owne bookes , & chiefely vnto Durand , of whome I thinke , that there wanteth not much , but that I haue recyted vnto thee word by worde almost all that which thou has●e now heard of mée .

Hillarius .

He ought also to adde , that the wéepings , lamentations & sower lookes that they do make in their temples the Passion weeke , the which they call the great & holy wéeke , & chiefely the apish trickes of the holy Friday , are procéeded from that originall & beginning . For as that women celebrated the Cereales & Proserpinales with lamentations , representing the sorrow which Ceres did take bicause of hir daughter Proserpina which was rauished , & in like manner the Adoniales , in that honour of Venus , bewailing and lamenting hir friend Adonis whiche was killed . Doth it not also séeme that they would in the virgin Mary & Iesus Christe hir sonne , renewe & set vp againe all these olde superstitions , nether more nor lesse then if that holy virgin were Ceres , Venus , or Isis : & Iesus Christe Adonis , or Adouis . Osiris ? For what difference is there betwene their diuine seruice by that which they would cositerfeit the death & passion of Iesus Christ , and the same whiche the auncient Idolators dyd make in the honoure of Adonis and Osiris ? For they doe celebrate euery yeare in the moneth of Iune the feast , and in remembraunce of that that Adonis Theocri . 〈◊〉 . 23. Lue. in det syria● Hiero. tn E●● . c. 8. was killed , and torne in peeced of a wilde Bore , they beat and stryke themselues euery yeare , ●ntyll the bloude commeth foorth , and make greate sorrwe and lamentations sh●●ow out the whole countrey . And after that they haue made an ende of beating themselues & wéeping , they byd that office after Adonis , euen as after those that be dead . Afterwardes the next day they dyd say that hee was aliue againe , and that they lifted him up on hie in the ayre , and did shaue their heads , euen as the Aegyptians did when Apis was dead among them , and that they did celebrate the feast of Osiris , which is also called Serapis For first 〈…〉 . of all the Priests of that Goddesse lsis do shaue their heads and their beardes and strike their breastes , and doe lament , euen as Isis lamented , when shee had lost but little sonne Osiris . Afterwardes , the childe was brought againe , as though he had bene found , and then al the sorrow was changed into ioy . Therefore the Poet caine calleth him Osiris , who is neuer serched for ynough . 〈◊〉 de sal. 〈◊〉 li. ca. 21. luke . Saty. 8 for as Lactantius saith , they do loose him alwayes , and alwayes finde him againe .

Theophilus .

I doubt not , but that the same is that same Idolatry which Ezechiell rebuked , speaking of the woemen which wept for Thamus : as Saint Hieromecrpoundeth Thammus . Eze. 8. c. 14 it , or at the leastwise altogether the like .

Hillarius .

Now marke & consider all the trayue that our Priests do hold upon good friday . And thou wilt say that Good Friday . they haue lost Iesus Christ , or that he is dead , and that they would bury him . And afterwarded a day after that Easter Allel●ya Caster is come , Allelnya , whom they haue buried , is raysed againe , and there is no more question , but to laugh and reioyce , and to celebrate the feaste which the Panims do call Hilaria , that is to say , the ioyfull , and tt , at they do celebrate H. 〈◊〉 . it in the honour of the God Kis , in laughing and reioysing , and rehearsing some good thing to laugh at , as that The God Ris Apul. aluti . aur. 11 3. holy fathers do in their Sermons , on that feastes of Caster , when they do giue the sweet nesegayes unto the Ladyes , of which custome are procceded that bookes of De risu Paschalt , for to a waken their Auditories , and the better to sanetifie the feast of the God Alleluya , with whom they do trumph all the yeare .

Theoplulus .

They may well sake Iesus Christ . For hee maye bee lost and dead for them , crcept they learne to knowe and honoure him other wise then they doe : For he hath not taught us to celebrate the remembraunce of his death and passion after the example of that same of Adonis & Osiris : But hath giuen unto us the manner & fashion in the holy Supper such as it appertaineth unto him and The true comme meration of the death of Iesus Christ his Churche , the whiche we ought to follow , and we neede not to haue so manye ceremonies and Panish superstitions .

Hillarius .

For to make an ende in painting and setting Floralet . forth the Caster , wée néede to adde no more but that Florales , the which they celebrated in that same time in the moneth of Aprill , in the honoure of the Goddesse Flora , with torches and lightes , as at the feast of Candlemas it appeareth by that that shee hir selfe answered unto Ouid , whiche bringeth it in , speaking so of hir feast : Fast . 5.

Those lights which serued to their vse in times full long ago Vnto the very like vse serue , our present time also ,

And they celebrated the same feast , for to keepe the goods & fruits of the earth , as the Cereales , both of them in that same moneth : notwithstanding that Durand placeth them in the Cereales . moneth of february , the better to agrée with the feast of Candlemas , Let us now lay together all those péeces , and let us consider howe the diuell mocketh God , the Uirgin Mary , and all the Christian people : And how of the Uirgin Dishonour to the Virgin Mary Mary , he is enforced not only to make one Idole but many , and hath induced and perswaded that Christians , without that they had any regarde , to make hir a Iuno , Februa , Venus , Ceres , Proserpina , & Flora. For wee doe honor hir after the same sorte , or rather that diuel , under the tytle of hir whom he hath taken for to couer & bioe himselfe , in stcede of those whom I haue but now named . To what ende do these torches & holy candels serue , & al your processions ? Holy candells & processions . Representacion of the light of the Gospell . Esi . 40. b. 6. Act 13 g. 47.

Eusebius .

Pen cary them , for to represent by them the light of the Gaspell that whiche Iesus Christ hath carried & borne , which is that true light of that world , for to illuminate & lighten the poore Gentles and Idolaters , and the glory of the people Israel , according to the prophecie of Esay and of Simeon .

Theophilus .

But must wee present him with torchest Act. 13. g. 47. Luc. 2. c 32. Psa. 19. c. 9 Torehes of the Chrustans . Mat. 5 b. 14 candels ? is not that rather the office of the Priests to light the Candle , lampe and torche of the word of God , ( whiche is the light of our feete , lightning the blinde , giuing wise , doine unto the little ones and ignorant ) thorow the preaching of the Gaspell , and to sette it uppon a candlesticke & Mat. 15. b. 14. Mat. 2● . b. 16 upon the table , for to giue light unto all those which are in that house of God , not for to put it under the table and under a busshell , and to fill the peoples eyes and all the Churche of God , with smoke and darkenes , for to testifie and witnes that they are blinde leaders of the blinde .

Hillarius .

They should haue more reason , if they wente a procession in the night , as the Panims did . And it is not to be doubted , but that they caried those torches & candels lighted , for to serue them for Purifications , & driue away the euills from the Cittie , and from their houses , after the same manner as the Panims did . Te humiliter deprecartur vs has candelas ad vsus omnia & salutem animarum & corporum sine in terra sine in aquis , per inuecationemsancts fur nominis & per intereessionem sancta Maria virginis genetricis fily tul ( cuius bodie sesla denels colimus ) & per preces omnium sanct , 〈◊〉〈◊〉 benedicere & sanctificate dig ne●● . 1.

Theophilus .

If they would denie it , they woulde bee banquished of the contrary as lyers , aswell by the prayer and blessing , the which they bse , for to blesse the tapers and torches , the day of the feast of Candlemas , as of that that they use the Satterday before Caster or upon Caster euen for to blesse the fire and the Pascal taper . Parke then first of all that whiche they sing the daye of the feaste of Candlemas as it is contayned in the Pissell , not that I will recyte word for word , all their blessing but onely the principall points for to proue our meaning , & by the which thou maist iudge of the rest . They sing unto God : we hubly besech thee , that thorow the muecation of thy holy name and by the intercession of the holy uirgin Mary the mother of thy sonne , whose feast this day we deuoutely celebrate , & by the prayers of al thy Saincts , that it would please thee to blesse and sanctifie these candles , for the use of man , and the health of the soules and bodies , bee it in the earth or in the waters : Beholde their owne proper wordes rehearsed truely worde for worde , Where haue Candells for the health of the soules & bodyes Benedie Doms ne Iesu Christe haue creaturam cere supplicanti bus nobis . &c. they founde , that the Candels do serue for the health of the soules and bodies , and that they haue any other use , then for to giue light unto the corporall eyes , but in the bookes of the Panims . But by and afferwards they do say worse . Parke then their wordes , O Lord Iesus Christ we humbly beseche thee , to blesse this creature of war , and shead foorth in the same thy heauenly blessing , by the vertue of the holy Crosse , to the ende that as thou hast guien it unto makinde , for to put & driue away the darknes , it may recelue such force and benediction , by the signe of thy holy Item : Benedico te creatura cera in nomine Domini nostri & sancte Trio nstntis , us sis exterminatio diaboli & omnium conterbur nalium esus . Charmes The ad iurati of the holy water & salte Exercisnius salis . Exorciso te creatn salis per De um crosse , in what place soeuer it shall be lighted , or set , that that wicked diuell may flee and tremble , and auoyd altogether amased and made a fraide , with all his ministers , from those habitations : and that hée presume no more to trouble those which do serue God . And by and by after , there is yet more . Ido blesse thee thou creature of war , in the name of our Lorde God , and of the holy Trinitie , to the ende thou mayst be the extermination and driuing away of the Diuell , and all his complises . What mockery is this ? must the name of GOD bee so abused in Charmes and Witchecraftes ? For wherein doe these benedictions and blessings dyffer from the charmes and coniuratyons of sorcerers and witches , aswell as the Exorcisme and adiuration of their holy water and Salte , whiche they put into it ? What doeth that Exorcisine and adiuration signiste ? I exercise and adiure thee , thou Creature of Salte , by the liuing † † vinum per Deum GOD , by the true † † verum , per Deum GOD , by the holy † † sanctum per Deum qui te per Eliseum prophetam in aquam mitti iussit , vt sanaresur steulitas aque vt effect●ris sale porcizatom . in salutem credentiam vt sisommtleas te 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 lulian the Apostate The Temple of Fortune The sp●●kings at the entrmg in & coming forth on the Temple GOD by the GOD which comnaunded that thou shouldest bee put into the water , by the Prophet Eliseus for to heale the sterilitie and barrennes of the waters , to the ende thou be made an adiured Salt , to the health of them that beleeue , to the ende that thou mayst be unto all those which will take thée , health of soule and bodye , and that all fantasie , malyce , dsuhtyle crafte of the diuell maye auoyde , and depart , from the place where thou shalt bee sheade abrcade , and all vncleane spirite adiured , by him which shall iudge the quicke and the dead , and the world with fire .

Hillarius .

Thou wilt make vs here by and by holye water . Sith that thou hast made the Exorcisine , sing nowe the Oremus .

Theophilus .

There are no lesse blasphemics in it : But sith that thou wilt haue it thou shalt . O eternall God , altogether mightie , we humbly innocate and call vpon thy infinite clemency , that it would please thée to blesse † and sanctifie † this creature of Salt , the which thou hast giuen for the vse of mankinde , to the ende that it may bée vnto all those which will take it , helth of soule and body , and that all that which shal bée touched with the same or sprinkled , should bee without any filth , and all the assault and cembat of the spirituall enemie .

Hillarius .

I haue heard many Priesses , who in stéed to say : Careatomni immundicia , doe say , Careat omni mundicia . But they do vse the figure whiche the Gramarians do call , Apheresis : or for to speake better , the figure called the ignoraunce of the Gramer . I doe verelye thincke that all that whiche they sprinckle abideth well according to the prayer that they make , wythout cleanenesse . Wherefore those whom they doe sprinckle , when they make their great Asperges me , maye very well saye , as Valentinian sayde who was the chiefe Captayne in the Courte of Iuhan the Apostate , but yet neuerthelesse a good Christian and afterwardes chosen Emperour .

Thomas .

What sayd he ?

Hillarius .

At a certeyne time as lulian entered into the Temple of Fortune , and that on both the sides of the doores the ministers and Priests of the Temple were , who ( accordinge as they made men to vnderstand ) thorow that sprinckling of that water did purge those that did enter in ( after the same manner as cur priests doe yet at thys daye to those whiche doe enter or goe foorth of the church ) Valentinian , who did goe before lulian the Prince espyed a droppe of that water which had bene shed vppon his cloake , for which he was very angry , insomuch that he gaue a Priest & Minister of the temple The sprinklings at the entring in and comming forth of the temple . A Priest being stroken . A potheme of Diogenes . a great stroke with his fist , saying : Thou hast defiled mée & not purged mée . Hée had as much good reason , as Diogenes , who at a certeine time béeing entered into a filthy & stincking bath , sayde : Those which doe bathe and wash themselues héere , wher doe they wash them ? Letting therby to vnderstand , that those which bathe and wash them in those bathes , come foorth more filthy then they were before they entered , and that they haue more neede to bée washed then before , for they haue gathered nothinge but filthynesse . But this Apothegme and sentence neuer agréed better then with our Priestes , whiche defile all those which goe vnto them howe cleane soeuer they be . But thou halt yet adiured and coniured but the salt . Yet remaineth the water .

Theophilus .

They do blaspheme yet moreouer . For Exorcismus aqua . Exerciso te creatura aqua in in nomine Dei patris ¶ omnipotentis , & in no mine Domini lesu † Christi ●●●● , eiusdem domins nostri & in virtute Spiritus † sancti vt sias aqua exoressata ad effu gandam onme polestatem mimici , & ipsum inimicum eradicare & explantare valeas cum Angelis suis Apostaticis per virtutem &c. Hem. Huic elemento multimodis purificatio● nibus prepara to , virtute tue bene † dictiones , infunde , vt ad abijcrendos demones morbos● pellendos diuine gratie sumat officium , vt quic quid in damib vel in locis sidelum hec vndarespersit , careat omnium immū dits . ● , liberat a noxla : non illic resideat spiritus pestilens , non aura corrumpens diseedant omnesinsidie laten tis inimite &c. Item vt 〈…〉 , 〈…〉 . The coniuting of the water A plaister for all sores . The vertue of Iesus Christ Chaunged & referred to the creatures . The order and vse of ceremomes chaunged . they pray that it may be adiured and coniured , for to driue away all the power of the enemie , and to teare and pluck vp the enemies themselues , with all his apostate Angels , and for to drwe away the Diuels , and diseases , and that all that which shall be sprickneled with it , either in the houses , or in the place of the faythfull , shoulde bée wythout spot or hurt , that the spirite of pestilence doe not remaine and rest there , nor the infectious windes nor aire : that al vncleane spirites , and the terrour of the venomous Serpent , and all the assaultes and ambusshes of the euemye , and all euill , bée altogether driuen away . To conclude , they require that it maye doe all thinges . And so by that meanes wée shall haue no more néede of Iesus Christ . The Candles , the Ware , the Salt and the Water , wyll doe all .

Eusebius .

You speake very euyll . For you maye well perceiue howe they yraye vnto God , that hée woulde giue vnto them that vertue , by his sonne Iesus Christ , whom they acknowledge to be the authour of all good things .

Theophilus .

If they acknowledge him for such a one , what néede haue they then of War , Salt and Water , for to obtaine of him the goods which are necessary for our bodies and soules ? Can he , or will hée not dooe that without those thinges ? wilt they binde and tye his grace , vertue and power , and inclose & shut it in wax , salt and water , as they doe require by their prayers ? If those thinges be not charmes , sorceries and enchauntmentes , I knowe not what we may call charmes , sorceries & enchauntmentes .

Hillarius .

When they do coniure and blesse their welles and fontes & christening places , they gape ouer the water and blowe in it , as though they had the holy Ghost within their throate , and that they would shut him in it . It is very néedefull , that that holy Ghost whome they doe plunge and shutte in that water can swim , or otherwise he shall bee in daunger of drowning .

Theophilus .

Euen as they doe with the water & war , so doe they with the fire and incenie , vppon Easter euen , when they blesse their Pascall of wax .

Eusebius .

Sith that all that is done vnto the honour of God , can it be but good ?

Theophilus .

Howe can it be to the honour of God , to attribute vnto the creatures , the honour which belongeth vnto him ? Or to shut vppe and lymit his grace , vertue and power by them ? And to ouerthrowe and tourne vpside downe altogether the order of God , and the vse , for which hée hath created them , for hée hath not created the water , salt , fire & the ware for to purifie the soules : for to oriue away the Diuelles and for to be remedyes to all corporall and spirituall diseases : But he hath created the water , for to drincke : for to wash awaye the filthinesse of the body , for to refresh , sprinckle and helpe the naturall necessities for which God hath ordayned them . As much must wée vnderstande of the fire , salte and ware , and all other creatures , whiche cannot serue vs , but accordinge to their naturall properties , and according to the ordinaunce of God . Wherefore whosoeuer altereth and chaungeth that order of nature , and vse of the creatures , otherwise then he ought , attributinge vnto them any other propertie then that whiche God hath gyuen vnto them , hée blasphemeth God , and is worthy to be taken for a Sorcerer and a Magitian . For wherein doth a The difference betweene a good Philosopher & a charmer & Magician . good Phisitian and a Philosopher differ from a Charmer and Magitian , but in this that those doe followe the order of God in his creatures , and their naturall dysposition , and those héero doe peruerte and ouerthrowe it , and wyll by woords , charmes and coniurations , chaunge their nature and bring them to other effectes , then God hath appointed them .

Eusebius .

By thy reasons thou doest also abolysh the vse of the Sacramentes .

Theophilus ,

That is an other thinge , forasmuche as it is ordeyned of GOD , The Sacraments who maye make hys creatures to serue to what it pleaseth hym . For hée which is the Lord , may vse them eyther after that order as hée hath appointed them of nature : or miraculously , aboue nature . Although , that who so would attribute vnto the water of Baptisme , or vnto the breade and wine in the Lordes supper , that whiche you doe attribute vnto your waters , saltes , fires , inceuse , and waxe , shoulde bée greatly to be rebuked . For all the vertue and efficacie of the Sacramentes doe depende of the promise of God , of which you haue nothinge in your ceremonies , invented and forged by your owne sence and vnderstanding , wythout the worde of God , no more then the Magicians and enchaunters haue in their witchinges and inuocations . Wherefore we cannot repute and take such superstitions followinge the manner & forme as you doe holde , but for such , as those haue bene of whiche you haue taken the example .

Hillarius .

But how can it bée pleasing and agréeable to God , to forsake and renounce Iesus Christ his sonne , and the Christianitie , for to make themselues Panims or Iewes ? Tell me Eusebius , if thou doe not thincke that the Chaldeans and Persians are worthy to be accompted and taken for Idolaters , to haue had The fire the god of the chalde●s & Persians● the fire in so great admiration that they haue worshiped it as God ?

Eusebius .

Who doubteth of that ?

Hillarius .

Now what reason haue you for to excuse your selfe of that same Idolatry , more lawfully then they ?

Theophilus .

That Idolatry is the most auncient which hath bene almost amongest men , chiefely before that there was any vse of Images : And I doubte not but that wée referre it , vnto the Idolatry of the fire , followinge also the opinion of Sainct Hierome and of Hier. & Nicol. in Genes. 12. d. 27. Tareh . Abraham . Cal. Rod lec . aut , li , 15. ca. 15 Lyra , that which Moses calleth , Vr of the Chaldees .

For notwithstanding that that name is taken for the place , wherein Tarch the Father of Abraham dwelled , yet neuerthelesse it is very lyke that that place hath taken his name of that fire , which the Chaldeans worshipped , as wée sée dayly that many Townes and Villages dooe take their name of the Gods , Sainctes and Patrons whiche are there adored & honoured , as are S. Claudus , S. Hippolite , Sainct Denis , Sainct Iames , & others innumerable . For Vr , signifieth in the Hebrew and Chaldee tongue , fire and furnayse . And vnto that agréeth well that which is spoken off in the booke of Iosua , that Tareh the Father of Abraham was an Idolater , although Iosua . 24. a. 2 there bee no mencion made that hée worshypped Images and Idolls : But it was bicause he was defiled and infected with that Idolatry of the Chaldees , for the which Abraham departed from his countrey , in not worshypping the fire in stéede of the true God .

Hillarius .

That Idolatry hath not bene onely among the Chaldees and Persians : But it is also spredde abroade amonge other Nations , who of longe time haue in lyke manner worshypped the fire vnder the name of Vesta , who was in greate honour and estimation amonge the Troyans before the warre of Troy , and from thence hath bene wyth the other Gods , caryed into Italy by Aeneas , and so came vppe the custome to kéepe a continuall fire in his Temple at Rome within a Bore or Pyxe , as they doe nowe the holye Liui. lt. 1. & 5 Macro . Satur lt. t. c. t. 12 plu. in Num. ex Camd Ouid. Fast . 1 & . 6. hoaste . For that cause the Poetes manye times dooe call it , the Troyans fire , and the fire of Laomedon , the founder and buylder of Troy . The Greekes also dyd the lyke in Athens and Delphos . And Seruius wituesseth that they kept it also in the Temple of Iupiter and of Minerua , by which they woulde vnderstande the earthly heauen and the celestiall fire . And St●abo Stral● . li. 9 hath written almost the lyke , that is to say , that there was an olde Temple of Minerua Poliade in which was kept a Lampe continually burning , and there was a Couent of Nounes , I thincke that Pope Sabinianus dyd Plat. in vit. Sab●nt Cal. aul. lec . li , 15. ca. 14. take example of the samo , when that he constituted and ordeined that Lampes shoulde be continually kept burninge in the Temples , as Platine and Volaterran dooe witnesse .

Theophilus .

If they had the lyke that of which Sainct Augustine maketh mencion , which was inextinguible in a certeine Temple of Venus , whiche the Panims August . de cin Des. l● . 21. c. 6 had , they woulde make of it a great myracle , and would esteeme it for a goodly relike . For he sayth , that it contimeth alwaies burning in the aire abroad , without euer being put out or quenched , eyther with the winde , water , or W any thing that one can do to it . Therfore it was called inextinguible .

Hillarius .

It must be , if that be true , that it wae artyffcially made , or else by magycall Arte. But I thinke that they woulde make as greate an accompt if they had such fire , as that same which the Greeks kept in the Temple of Apollo in Arges , the which they dyd saye , sell from keauen . I demaunde of thée friende Theophilus , what thinckest thou hathe bene the first cause of that Idolatry .

Theophilus .

I cannot perceyue that they haue any other cause , but the same whiche hath ingendered all the other Gods amonge the Panyms , which haue Phin. li , 1. ca. 1 delfied and called Gods , all the creatures of whome men dooe féele , ayde and helpe . Seeinge then the great poritie whiche is in the fire , and the greate vitlytie that men dyd receyue thereby , and howe necessarye it was Idolatry of the sire & of the Planets . Lue. Flor , in Numa . Flat , de Pbilo . dogm . VA in Camillo . vnto mans lyfe , and howe it represented the fires and celestiall lyghfes , of the sunne and of other planets and starres ( whome mey haue also ●olden for Gods , bycause of their greate beautie and vtilytie ) they dyd in lyke manner thincke that they had iust occasion to holde and take the fire for a God , whiche they dyd sée to bée of one selfe nature wyth the celestiall fire , whiche alwayes moueth and gyueth lyfe vnto all thinges as the soule of them . They had yet certeine other occasions , in that that the holye Scripture oftentimes compareth God to the fire , and calleth hym , a consuminge fire : and that God appeareth sometime : in the lykenesse God compared to the fire . Deut. 4. d. 24. Hebr. 12. g. 19. Exo. 3. a. 2. Act. 7. d. 31. 3. Reg. 18. f. 33 of fire , and that the fire came downe from heauen oftentymes , for to consume the sacryfices of the holye Patriarches and Prophetes . They had more iust occasion to confirme themselues in that opinion , and more goodlyer appearaunce for to allow their religion , then the Papistes haue for their Images and Idolls . For wée cannot denye , but that the fire is a lyuelye Image of God , which sheweth foorth and reprosenteth vnto vs it selfe more lyuely , then all the Idolls which euer were in the worlde . And therefore God woulde appeare in the Rxo. 3. 2. 2. Act. 7. d. 31. lykenesse of fire , and represent hys gyftes and graces , his vertue and power by the same : the which he woulde neuer dooe by Idolls and Images , and woulde neuer appeare in them , nor speake , nor doe any vertue or myracles by them , but hath lefte the same for the Dyuell , Images the instruments of the Diuel who is serued wyth such instrumentes , the whiche God hath altogether reiected and cursed , and hathe defamed them by defamed tytles , calling them filthynesse , vanytie , The titles of the Images . lying , nothing , abhomination and other like names , which oftentimes are rehearsed in the bookes of the Prophets . Furthermore had not the Chaldeans and Persians good occasion to preferre it aboue all the other . For sith that all the other were either of wood and of slone , or of golde , silver or other mettalles , he did melte , burne and consume The power of the fire about the others gods . all , insomuch that there was not one , whiche coulde resist him .

Hillarius .

Xerxes hing of Persia declared it very well Xetxes . vnto the Greekes , when hée came into Greece wyth so The temples burned In Asia great an army . For hée burned all the Temples , Idolles and Images of Asia , except the same of Diana the Goddesse Solin . ca. 53. Temple of Diana the Ephestā Act. 19. e. 24 Strab. ●● . 14 , Ph. li. 16. c. 41. & . ●● . 36. ca. 34 of the Ephesians , bicause of the excellent beautie of the same , and for the cunning buylding which was therein , that it was compted among the seauen moste chiefest workes which was in the worlde , which for their admirable and excessiue beautie , building and cunning , were called the seauen miracles of the worlde .

Thomas .

Wherefore did Xerxes the same ?

Hillarius .

Bicause that the Persians had no Temples , The Persians without Temple and Images . nor Images , and dyd thincke that one dyd greate iniurye vnto the maiestie of God , which is infinite , to chutte and limite him by the worke made with mans hande , In lyke manner Plutarch doth write , that the Romaines haue bad their Temples wythout Images ( after that the citie In Num● . Dionys . Halicar. in Numa . was builded ) 170. yeares , bicause that they were taught by the king Numa , that God was an inuisible spirite , which neuer was created . And notwithstanding that they doe honour the fire vnder the name of the Goddesse Vesta , yet neuerthelesse they neuer made Image for to represent the one nor the other , but were content to kéepe that holy fire , as hath bene sayde , and as it appeareth by the witnesse of Ouid , saying .

Within the Temple fire remaind , Ould. Fast. ● and still vnquencht did lye , The fire and Vesta wanted forme , to shew their shapes thereby . And a little afterwards he sayth . By Arte of Syracusia framd , there hangeth in the aire , A little globe that represents , the forme of heauens faire . Thomas .

If the Persians did take the for God , they did not altogether without reason , if they would not haue locked & shut him vp . For he doth open the gates , although that one would shut him vp & knoweth to go out euery way .

Hillarius .

The experience hath bene well shewed in the Temple of Diana the Ephesian . For notwythstandinge that Xerxes spared it , yet neuerthelesse his GOD The temple of Diana burned Gehlia . Herostrotus Soli. ca. 53 woulde not spare it , thorowe whose ayde Herostratus dyd bringe it to passe , who dyd set it on fire , and bourned it altogether .

Thomas .

Wherefore dyd hée that ?

Hillarius .

Hée hath confessed hymselfe , that hée dyd it for couetousnesse of renowne , to that ende that men Couetous of renowne should speake of hym . For hée neuer dyd any vertuous acte whereby hée myght gette a name . And therefore hée tooke vppon him to doe such an acte , to the ende that the remembraunce of his name shoulde bée eternall amougest men .

Theophilus .

Herostratus dyd let the Ephesians well to vnderstande , that the fire had more vertue then their Diana .

Hillarius .

Thou vnderstandest not the cause , and howe the Panims dyd excuse the Goddesse . Thou oughtest to vnderstande , that the verye same night that The natiuitle cf Alexander Olympiss . Herostratus dyd sette the Temple of Diana on fire , Olympias the mother of greate Alexander , was in hauayle wyth child , & bicause that Diana was gone thether for to helpe hir trauaile to bringe foorth Alexander , shée coulde not defende hir Temple . For thou doest very well know that woemen dyd call vppon hir in their trauayle . And therefore shée béeinge absent , and busied aboute Olympias and hir sonne Alexander , shée coulde not helpe hir Temple nor resist the God of the Persians , no more then the Gods of our Priestes can at this daye resist it . For that cause the Chaldeans dyd meruaylously beast themselues against all other Patyons , sayinge , that there were none that had suche a God as theirs , which consumeth all other . Yet neuerthelesss if the tale or historye bée true whiche Suidas Suiadas in dict Canop . God Canopus . dyd tell of a Prieste of Canopus , hée played or shewed them a fine feate , of whome hée hath written that the Priest of god Canopus which was adored and worshipped of some in Aegypt , seeing the arrogancie and pride of the Chaldeans , fearing also to loose his good théere and fare , The crafte and disceite of the Priest of Canopus . Cal. Rho. lec . aut . li. 15. c. 15. if the maiesty of his God were diminished , deuised this crafte and discepte . In Aegypt they vsed to make waterpottes of earth , hauing many holes for to distill the water and to make it more pure , bicause that the waters of Aegypt are much troubled and full of mudde and slime that Priest did take one of those water pottes , and stopped subtilly with ware all the holes thereof , afterwardes painted it with diuerse coloures , so that one could not perceiue it . That béeing done , filled it with water , afterwards did cut of the head of an olde Image , the which hée set vpon that great water pol , so cunningly that it was like to his god Canopus . After that , the Chaldeans came , who would proue the power of that fire of their God , against the God Canopus . The fire them béeing kindled , and Canopus béeing cast into it , after that manner and sorte as he was trimmed and apparayled by his Priest . Nowe whilest that on either sides men did behold which of those two Gods should haue the victory , the wax with whiche the holes were stopped , féeling the heat of the fire , did beginne to melt , & the water to droppe out , which quenched the fire . And so by that meanes Canopus got the victory thorow the craft of the Priest , and was iudged worthy of The victory of Canopus diuine honours .

Thomas .

Behold a mery Iest to laught at , at Caster .

Hillarius .

You laughe at it , but the holy fathers do say things which are not so good as that , and your preists do make miracles . which are not yet so subtile , by the which yet neuertheles the poore people are abused . But let vs consider a little wherein the Papists differ from the one The fire & ●●ter 〈◊〉 gods of the Papists 〈◊〉 on of the paseall tire . Rat d. ui . off . li 6. Rab de benecer . and the other of whiche we haue spoken off , if they haue not the fyre and the water for their gods . For what doth signifie the benediction and consecration of the Are which they make vpon Caster euen , with their magical ceremonies ? For at the beginning of diuine seruice , all the sice which is in the Temple must be put out . Afterwardes they must a newe , by striking vppon a stone wyth a péece of stéele , or with a Christall set against the sunne : Afterwards they must kéepe it , not with al kinds of wood , but with the branches of the Vine . There is here more to doe then in the charmes of the Enchaunters . And to what ende do all those sorceries serue ?

Eusebius .

Now darest thou so to blaspheme and call the diuine seruice Sorcery ? which was done to represent , The interpretation of the Benediction of the new nee that the fire of the olde law is put out , by the death and passion of Iesus Christe , who hath accomplished and fulfilled all the ceremonies of the same , and he is the slone & the Christall whiche hath bene stroken vppon the side , and hath kindled for vs a new fyre of the holy Ghost .

Hillarius .

Mée thinkes that the interpretation should be two true , if you said that the same signifieth , that the Priests go about all that they can to quench the fire of the worde of God , which Iesus Christ the light of the world , hath brought in the earth , for to take in hand a newe , and Luc. 12. g. 49. Iohn . 1. a 9 & 8. b. 9. a. 5. ler. 5. d. 14. & 23. s. 29 for to make vs , in steede of the Purgatorie , which is by that bloude of Iesus Christ , a newe Iesus Christe , and a newe Purgatory in fire , to the ende that all at one moment or instant do declare themselues both Iewes and Panims .

Theophilus .

It is moste true , that God commaunded The signification of the perpetuall fire of the burnt offring Leuit. 6. b. 13. the Priests of the olde law , that the fire of the bournt offring or holocauste should be alwayes kept burning in the Temple . But that was to signifie , that the fire of Iesus Christ , and his offring and sacrifice is eternall , and sufficient for to purge all the sinnes of the world and that Heb. 9. c. 11. & 10. e. 11. 1. Pet. 4. c. 13 we ought all to bee pertakers of his crosse & tribulations which are signified by the fire in the Scripture : and wée ought all to trauaile as much as lieth in vs , to kéepe and mainteine that fire of Iesus Christ : the euangelicall mynistry and the faith in his death and passion in the Christian Church . For asmuch then as Iesus Christ hath perfectly and wholy accomplshed and fulfilled that whiche by that fyre was signified , & the it must be accompilshed in vs spiritually , not in outward appearance , what néed haue wee to inuent new ceremonies and new Iewishnes : were it not as good to kéepe them to the olde , sith that they will play the Iewe with the Iewes ?

Hillarius .

But which is worse , so play the Panim with the Panims , of whom their manner of doings approcheth neerer then of the auncient Iewish lawes . For as Plutarke witnesseth , in Athens & Delphos , where the Greekes Plutus in Num. in like manner do kéepe a perpetuall fyre , if peraduenture it were put or went out , they must kindle a new and very orange , taken from the Sunne . In like manner also hath Macrob. Satur. li. ● . ca. 12 The new fire of the Panims Val. Max. li. 1. cap. 1. The fire of Vesta . Plut. in Camillo . ouid . Fast . 6. Macrobius written , that the first day of Marche , the Romaines kindled a new fire vpon the aulter of the Goddesse Vesta , the which fire muste bee kept by the Mestales , the nunues of Vesta alwayes burning in hir Temple , like vnto ours at this day . Wherevnto agréeth in like manner the witnes of Ouid , saying .

Men say that when the holy fire in temple ceast to burne . It was the vse from time to time with new to serue the turne .

And if it happen that thorow their negligence it be put out , they shal be greuosly punished .

Theophilus .

One may vanquysh them by their owne confession , that they haue not receiued those tradition of that Apostles . For they themselues confesse , that the custome to blesse the Pascall taper and such manner of doings , haue The Paschall Taper Rat. diui off . li. 6. Rab. de den . cer Zozmie and Theodorus The most puissaunt god of the Priestes bene instituted by Pope Zozme and Theodorus the first .

Hillarius .

We must not be abashed though they make great prouision both of Oyle & War for to kéepe alwayes that fire in their churches . For they haue no greater nor puissanter God then he , of whom onely they demaimd aide , inuocate and call vpon for to mainteine their Religion , & all their other Gods. For what other refuge haue they for to fight against the truth and to desende lyings , but the Fagots and Fyre ? Wherefore mee thinkes that they shoulde haue more reason , if they followed the example of the Persians , who notwithstanding that they condempned those which had temples and Idols , yet The holy and ●●ered fire of the Persias . ●rs . Mark. t. cal . R●ls . lec . 〈◊〉 . 8 aa . 2. neuerthelesse they had a custome , that the kings sheulde cause the syre to bee caried before them uppon an Norse backe , the whiche is called by the Nistoriographers OriMasda , that is to saye , the holy fire ? or the sacred syre .

They also caried it in procession all abouts , in the same manner as the Papists did cary the holy hoasten Christs day , and as the Pope causeth his God to be caried before him uppon a white ambling nagge , to the ende hee maye The holy ho●● The pracction of the serst . God and the ho y fir e. gee the more at his ease : altheugh that hée esticme him selfe more worthy , sith that he causeth himselfe to bee carted of men , and his God of beastes . The pecple also bsed to adore and worshippe that holy fire , as they doe at this day the holy hoast . And whe they do cary it in procession . 365. Priests did go before him , to the ende there bee as many in number , as there be dayes in the yeare , doing the sauie in the honour of the sonne , who by his fyre giueth the light of the day in the earth . Therefore also they caried it with them in the warre . And when they muste remoue the hoast , there was uppon the kings Tabernacle , a little Image of the sunne , enclosed within a rounde hor of Christall , whiche shined and gaue a great light . When the procession of the holy and eternall fyre began to march and go foorth , they caried if before all , uppon the Aulters of silurr the whithe the wisest and holyest men whom they called pagitians , did follow . After them . 365. young men , beeing clothed in Purple and red , for to represent the colour of the fyre . I beleeue that after their erample , the Pope and the Cardinals are pet clothed in red , in witnes , that either they are men of bloud , beeing all bloudie with the bloude of the righseous and poore innocents : or els that they are as a consuming fyre in this world , which consumeth all , for to make the poore faithfull feare , which will not consent unto their blasphemies and tyranny : or in signe and token that they are the Cookes & fyre bronds of hell , for do tost and broyle the roore sules , & that they haue the tharge of those iusernall firrs and of Purgatorie . There was in like manner in that processiou , charets , hearses and shrines , all tryumed and engraued in golde and siluer , for to carye and beare the other gods and their Images , the which they haue afterwards learned to make , as the other Panims by succession of time did . There were also , which caried goodly rods and staues of golde , as are the crosses of our Abbots and Byshoppes : and the staues which they do cary in procession , with the Crosse . And those were also clothed with white , as our Priests are . Wherefore sith that our Priests do follow them almost in all things , mee thinketh that they shoulde haue more shew of appearance to kéepe the holye fire in the pyr or bor , and to worshippe it and cause it to bée worshiped , as theyr God that they haue made of stower . For this without the other , can haue no great vertue , sith that the fore must defende them . Wherefore they do euidently declare , that they estéeme it more puissant and more strong , sith that they haue recourse vnto it . Wherefore one may wel aunswere vnto them , that which of old time hath bene aunswered by a certeine man , of the pron and of the golde , who was demaunded whiche of them both was the strongest .

Thomas .

Pée thinketh that it is the golde , for it doth The strength of the gold and of Yren . all things .

Hillarius .

But what can the golde do without that yron ? hath it not néede of the yron for to kéepe & defende it ? For who is moste strongest , eyther hee whiche keepeth , or hée which must bee kept .

Thomas .

There is in th at a Sophistrie .

Hillarius .

There is no neede to alledge sophistrie . For the thing is suche in beritie . There is nething but the foolish opinion & perswasion of men , which maketh them to iudge otherwise . For as Sainct Augustine saith , what Augustin , are all the mettals but earth ? what difference is there then betweene the yron and the golde , but that the one is The golde pale a blacker earth , and the other more yollow & pale ? wherein he declareth that he is more fearefull then the vson .

Thomas .

It is not without cause that he is plae , for hee hath manye enemies whiche doe lye in wayte to take him .

Hillarius ,

And therefore what shall hee doe , if hée hadue not the yron for to defende him ? For the yron , defendeth him , and the yron taketh him , and whiche is more , of which should one set best by , either of the yron or of the golde ? Can we aswel labour and til the lande with the golde as with the yron , and make that whiche wée make of the yron ?

Thomas .

It is moste true we cannot . But yet neuerthe ignorance and foolish opinton of men , which estéeme it to be so , bicause that the coulour séemeth vnto them more fairer and that it is not so plenty as yron ? But take away the opinion , and it shall be but earth as the yron . Asmuch may we say of the God of the Priestes , and of the fire . For I assure thee that if the syre dyd not make them to feare him , that it should neuer haue come vnto such honour as it is come vnto , and it shoulde bee impossible to keepe it in such digmtie . Furthermore , if the syre of Purgatory were not of some balue , it shoulde not be so deere Perchandise , nor so precious . But what is the cause that men haue it in such reuerence , and do forsake the liuinge God , and the Sauiour Iesus Christ , for to worshippe the worltes of their handes , but the false opinion wherewith their understanding is corrupted & marred ? For bestoes the worde of God , all the residue is but opiluons and lyings .

Theophilus .

They should haue no lesse occasion to worshippe the fyre , then the bread , and to make it a God . For if that fyre can purge & sanctify that body & soule , it is God The fise made a God . Rom. 4. 2. 5 Est. 43. b. 11 If it purge and sanctify , it iustifieth & saueth . If it instiffe & saue , it is then God . For ther is none other iustifter & samour but him onelye . And it is no harder for him to purge & saue man , then to create & make him . The worke of that redemption is no harder , then that of the creation . Wherefore if the one apperteineth unto God alone , so doth that other .

Hillarius .

There is yet another point , the is , that the fire is the principall creator of the Priests God . For without it they cannot seeth nor heate any thing . It hath power to make & unmake , as it hath bene well shewed foorth in the A true lustory of the Priestes god burned . yere of our Lord. 1542. in a litle billage which is iii , miles from Castres in Languidoc , where the poore whyte god was burned , upon holy Thursoay , atnight , with all his Tabernacle , his house and al the Tepistry woork and hangings .

Thomas .

Now happened that great misfortune ?

Hillarius .

Nou must understand , the that night before the day of holy friday , they had a custome that all the families & householders went to bisit the poore god , which was there deteyned & kept prisoner , with a great number of Tapers , torches & lampes which they caryed ●● great deuotion , saying : let bs go see our God , which is at rest .

Thomas .

To what purpose did they the ?

Hillarius ,

Think the it was to confort him , bicause the upon those dayes there he was somuch tormented among the Iewes .

Thomas .

Are there Iewes in the country ?

Hillarius .

Why , is there a country where ther is none ?

Thomas .

Not many among that Christians .

Hillarius .

Pore then in any other place , although there were none but the pricsts which alwaies & dayly , thorow their blasphemies , do crucifie Iesus Christ : towards who they shew themselues a great deale worse then the Iewes . For they haue crucifted him but once , but those , here doe crucifie him euery day .

Thomas .

Ketourne to thy matter , & expound unto vs how the fire there kindled .

Hillarius .

Nou must understand , the in disiting himm in such fort , they brought that fire so neere , the it kindled & burned all . Tewes among the christiaus Now when they had found the nert day the goodly stur the they had made , god knoweth what pitious , lamctatiōs , wepings & cryings ther was . Tamus , Ositis & Adonis wer neuer so bewayled & lameted . They did sing other lamétatiōs , then those of Ieremy , saying : O how wicked are we , al the world wil redeoche & check us , that we are worse then the Iewes . For he was crucified among them , but he hath bene burned amongest vs . We must not bee abashed , though they burne the Lutherians , sith that they burne their God . Yet neuerthelesse that ought not so se●me vnto them strange . For they haue vsed it of long time , and haue set and put a Canon among the Cautels of their Masse , which commaundeth , that when the hoast shal be rotten or mouldie in the pyr , or that the wormes , Spiders and Myce haue touched and eaten it , that it should be burned , and that the asshes should be ●ut in the reliquare or holy place . The which thing was once obiected and propounded vnto a Priest , amongst a great company of people , in a house at Geneua . But he was not asraid to absolue the question , nor he was not so much offended in burning their God , as those here . For he aunswered directly , if he suffred himself to be crucified of the Iewes , cannot he suffer himselfe to be burned of vs ?

Thomas .

The resolution was clarke like , & like a good Theologian . But what was done in the end with these which burned it and suffred it to be burned .

Hillarius .

There was great debate betweene the Priests and the procurors of the Temple . For the Priest did lay the fault vpon the procurors . The procurors on the contrary , confessed that they had the charge of the Temple , but not of the body of God , which would not suffer him to be touched and handled but of the Priests . And said , that although they had bene present , yet they durst not take Exconci . Aurel An other history . The fire kindeled in the temp●e of Vesta Metellus . Dyont . in Numa . Ouid. Fast . 6 Palla lium . The hand kercheife of Chamber . him from the fire . Yet neuerthelesse I thinke that if they had séene that goodly sturre they should haue béene entorced to haue taken him out , and would haue hadde some compassion of him . They woulde haue done as Cecilius Metellus , who seeing the fire kindled in the Temple of Vesta , wherein was the Palladium in great daunger to be burned , did cast himselfe in the middest of the slaming fire for to saue it , or other wise it had bene burned , as the holy hand-kerchiefe of Chambery . Metellus made it a great conscience to touch it with his hand , bicause that it was not permitted to men to enter into that holy Reliquare , nor to approch or come néere that holy Palladium , but for the holye Virgins Vestals , the Nonnes of Vesta . But when he perceiued that they coulde doe nothing but wéepe , without helpinge any thinge at all , hée aduentured himselfe , for to deliuer it from the fire , the whiche dyd so burne his eyes , that he dyd lose his sight . Pli. li. 7. c. 43

Thomas

What was that Palladium ?

Hillarius .

An Image of the Goddesse Pallas , the which the Panims beléeued to be fallen Ouid. Fast . 3 from heauen , as Numa made them beléeue of his Ancyles and of other seducers of the Diana of the Ephesians . It was brought from Troy , and the Romaines had Ancyla , Luil . li. 1. Diana of the Ephesians . Act. 19. c. 24. such an opinion , that all the good hap and euil hap of their Empire depended vpon the same , & that it should alwayes flourish & prosper all the while that they had that Image at Rome and that they dyd kéepe it well . Therefore they kept it so diligentlye , and all the counsell was amazed , when they sawe the fire wythin hir Temple .

Theophilus .

The Priestes haue no lesse feare of their God , of whome also dependeth all their dignitie and maiesty of their Empire .

Hillarius .

It is very true , but they haue a remedye which the Romaines had not . For if their Palladium had bene once burned , they could not haue an other , as those of Chambery haue done of their handkercheefe : And Iupiter would not send them a new from heauen . But the Priests doe make as many Gods as they lyst , and make them to come downe from heauen when it pleaseth them . But for to retourne to our matter , after that that poore God was burned , there was two great disputations . The first was , howe one myght discerne the asshes of the hoaste , from those of hys Tabernacle . Some held Disputacions of the asshes of the hoste an opinion , that one could not doe it , others to the contrarye , affirmed that the same was verye easye , sayinge that God dyd that honour vnto hys bodye , that the asshes of that shoulde bée whyter , more softer and smoother . Nowe when they had gathered together the smoothest and softest . There was yet an other disputation more barder , to wytte , in what place they shoulde put those holy asshes . For dyscussing of that matter , they must holde a counsayle of the wysest and moste prudent men , in the Citte of Castres , in the house of Monser of Thaurines , to the which was called master Iohn de Bosco a Iacopin , a Doctour in diuinitie , borne in Anaxerra , who then preached that Lent at Castres . There came also the Conuent of the Iacopins , and olde reuerent father a teacher in diuinitie , bringing wyth hym a booke , which they called the third part of Sainct

Thomas .

The opinyon of the greatest part was , that those holy asshes should be put in the Reliquary .

Theophilus .

It was a newe practyse to bring money vnto the Priestes . For on the one side their God had drawen hys parte and hys asshes from the other asshes .

Hillarius .

That was sufficient to heale their purses of Apostumes , and to make them haue the flire in their bellyes . But de Bosco counsayled them , that they should not put that Reliquary in anye hye place , for to auoide the daunger of committinge Idolatrye whiche myght come thereby . For hée declared vnto them accordynge to their owne doctrine , that the bodye of Christ was not burned , but the Accidents , and that those asshes were not of the bodye , but of the accidentes . Wherefore wée must not worshyppe them , sith that the bodye is flowen an other waye . Ercept they wyll yet kéepe him prysoner wythin the dust and asshes . The which thing should séeme verye straunge , and full of blasphemyes , yea , after the doctrine of the Schoolemen . And therefore hée counsayled them for a clére resolution , that they The accidens burned should bury those asshes behinde the hygh aulter , in some darke corner , and that they shoulde take héede they put not any title vpon it , nor Epitaph , as men doe vpon other sepulchres . For it shoulde séeme very straunge to write : heere lyeth the Lord Iesus , or the asshes of the body of god . For there is none so ignoraunt amonge the Christyans but knoweth that Iesus Christ hath not bene burned , and that he lyeth no more in the sepulchre : But that hée is raysed and ascended into heauen , where hée is on the ryght hande of God hys Father , from thence hée shall come to iudge both the quicke and the deade . Wherefore one may say unto them , as the Angell sayde vnto the women : hée is risen , hée is not heare .

Theophilus .

I beléeue that that God of the Priestes defendeth hymselfe as well from the fire , as hée defendeth himselfe from the myce , wormes & spiders , when they Accidens with Out substaiuice doe eate him , and that euen as they lyue of the accidents wythout the substaunce , so hath the fyre burned the accidents wythout the substaunce . And accordinge to the Philosophy of the scholasticall Diuines , agaynst the sen●ence of Aristotle , and of all the olde Philosophers , one may easely finde accidents , qualities and quantities , without substaunce , wythout body , and subiecte . Yet neuerthelesse if they dyd well consider the vertue of the fyre , they should be contrained to allowe mine opynion . And I woulde to God that they woulde worshyppe the fire , The trne fire . Mat. 3. c. li. Act. 2. 3. ● . which hath the onely vertue to purge sinnes , to wytte , the same with which Iesus Christ baptised , which is the holy Ghost .

Hillarius .

I doe also desire that they would worship that water of lyfe , the which Iesus Christ hath promysed , which is the same holy Ghost . But they had rather make the materiall water a God , of which wée may lawfully say , as wée haue sayde of the fire . For if they do make a God of the fire , they muste in lyke manner make a Goddesse of the water , to the ende they maye haue Gods and Goddesses , & a Vulcan , a Vesta , Thetis or Amphittite , The gods of the fire and water . Leucothea or Naiades , & Nymphes , goddesses of the waters , as wel as the Panims had , for many times they attribute vnto it as much vertue as to the fire , & sometimes more . For if their water do quench & put out the fire of purgatory , it hath as much vertue & more , than God Canopus , furthermore , what dyfference is there betwéene theire Aquaticall Theologye , and the same of the Ibolatrous Greekes , the which the Romaines haue learned of them , The Aquaticall theology euen as the Papistes of the auncient Romaines ? As wée maye iudge by that whiche Ouid hath wrytten , saying :

Our olde men thought and did beleeue , Fast . 2. and in that hope did dwell , That sinne by purging losed was , Purgations . and so let not to tell . Greece was the first this order gaue , and therewith did suppose : Offenders to be rid from sinne , and so let not to glose . Theophilus .

That doctrine shoulde hée good if it referred it selfe to the purgation of our sinnes , made or done by Iesus Christ and that it extended vnto his bloud : But their thought is altogether otherwise .

Hillarius .

They vnderstande that of their purgations , of whiche we haue spoken off , and chiefly of the water . Of which superstition , the Panims themselues doe mocke and haue well had the iudgement , to know that the same was but vanitie , as wee haue already declared by the Apothegine of Diogenes . And the verses of Persius a boue alledged pretend to the same , as well as those héere of Ouid , which I will now rehearse .

Ah , too light credite doe they giue , Fast . 2. which doe suppose and thincke , That that same fault of murther should , by water be extinct . Eusebius .

Wée are of an opinion altogether differinge from the same . For wée dooe not beleeue , that thorow the sprinckling of the holy water , the mortall Veniall sinnes put away by water . Mortall sinnes . Mat 12. c. 32 1. Iohn . 5. c. 13. sinnes are put away , but onely the veniall sinnes .

Theophilus .

They are not then defaced and taken away by the same . For the sinnes are not mortall , but vnto those whiche sinne vnto death , and agaynste the holy Ghost , and which perseuer in their sinnes , withour dooing repentaunce , and running vnto the mercye of God . But vnto Gods elect all sinnes are veniall : not by their nature , but by the grace of Iesus Christ . For there is no sinne be it neuer so little , which of his nature is not mortall , and worthy of eternall death , if Iesus Christe make them not veniall , and capable of pardon , to those Veniall sinnes . Rom. 8. a. 1. which beléeue in hym , to whome there is no more condempnation . Wherefore I am abāshed of your Doctors , which take so much paines to purge the veniall sinnes . And amongest others the sprincklyng of the holy water : 4. Sent. dist. Tho. par. 4. q. 7. ar. 2. & in Ma 6. and that they doe allowe so muche the exorcismes and coniurations , namely of Thomas of Aquin , whiche yet neuerthelesse doe nothing dyffer from charmes and sorceryes . But I am yet more abashed , of that Canon , so Pope Alexan. 5. de consec . dist 3. cap. aquam . full of blasphemye which is taken of Pope Alexander the fift , whome you accompte to bée the firste finder out and inuentour of holy water , who sayth after thys manner . Wée doe blesse the water sprinckled or myngled wyth salt amonge the people , to this ende that all béeing sprinckled therewyth , shoulde bée sanctified and puryfied : the which thinge wée commaunde all Priestes to doe so . For it the asshes of a younge Heyfer béeinge sprinckeled vppon the people doe sanctifie and make them cleane , by a stronger reason the water béeinge mingled wyth salte and hallowed wyth diuine praiers doth sanctifie and make them cleane ? And if the salte béeinge A comparison betweene theasshet of a Heyfer & the●roater 4. Reg. 2. d. 21 cast in the water by the Prophet Eliseus , hath healed and hoplen the barrennesse thereoff , howe much more the water béeinge hallowed wyth diuine prayers , doth take awaye the sterrilitie of hamayne thynges , and sanctyfieth and purgeth the filthinesse , and multiplyeth and encreaseth the other goodes , and putteth awaye the assaultes of the Diuell , and defendeth men from fantasies . O Lorde God , what greater blasphemye can one heare , is not that to tourne all the worde of God vpsyde downe , and to ouerthrowe all the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ ? That which the holy Apostle attributeth vnto the death and bloud of Iesus Christe is it not héere altogether most euidentlye giuen vnto the salte The bloude of Iesus . : Heb. 9. d. 13 Leuit. 16. c. 14 and water ? For in stéede that the Apostle sayth . If the bloude of Dren and of Goats and the asshes of an Heyfer , when it was sprinckeled , puryfied the vncleane , as touching the purifying of the flesh : Nowe much more shall the bloud of Christe ( whiche thorowe the eternall spyrite , offered himselfe wythout spotte to GOD ) purge your consciences from dead woorks , for to serue the liuing God ? In stéede that the Apostle sayth , the bloud of Iesus Christ , those héere doe put the salt the water . But I wyll argue and reason after an other sorte agaynst Alexander , If the asshes of an Heyfer and the holy water that they doe make , by the ordinaunce and commaundement of God , cannot purge the conscience , and can scrue but for a certeyne carnall purification , for to kéepe certeyne discipline in the Iewish Churche , and to prefigurate the true purgation which by the bloud of Iesus Christe ought to be in the Christian Churche , but it was necessary , that the onely sonne of God shoulde shed out his owne bloud , which onely hath that vertue , how the salt & the salted water coniured by the priests , without hauing either law , commaundement or promise of God do it better .

Hillarius .

I should haue ben greatly ashamed to haue stayed so long vpon those vaine & chidish ceremonies , but that I did sée that the most wisest , and the most greatest Doctors haue bene abused and deceiued & are fallen into so many execrable blasphemies .

Thomas .

How hath that ben possible ? If it be so as you say , I am greatly abashed how that could be done .

Theophilus .

It hath taken as good effect among the superstitious Christians , as among the panims . For euen as the Panims & hipocrites , haue ben the Apes of the Patirarches The error of the idolaters & hypocrites . Prophets and true seruants of God , so haue those bene héere . For all that which the Panims dyd , dyd séeme to haue some coulour and imitation of the lawe whiche God gaue vnto hys people . For that which they sacryficed in the mountaynes , that they caused the chylbren to passe thorow the fire , & sacrificed them vnto Moloch , and the wasshings that they had , dyd seeme to be taken of the custome of the auncient Patriarches , and of the people of Israell , after that sorte as the Turkes doe The w●●●hings of the Turkes . followe them at this daye : who doe spende and bestow a great parte of the time , aboute such wasshinges and Ceremonies . But there is greate difference . For although they followe somewhat in outward appearaunce , the woorkes of the auncient seruauntes of God , yet neuerthelesse The false imi●●cion of the woorkes of the Saints . they fayle greatlye , in that that they doe it wythout the commaundement of God , followinge onely their foolishe santasie and opinion : And they dooe it not in such fayth , to such intent , and wyth suche a spyrite , as they dyd . For they dyd them to render obedyence vnto the commaundement of GOD , the whiche Obedienco was vnto hym a sacrifice more agréeable , then the Ceremony , which for that ende was ordayned : Nowe these héere cannot scriue God by such obedyence , sith that they haue no commaundement : But they doe offende thorow disobedience , despysinge the meanes that he hath commaunded , and choosinge others contrary vnto his wyll . Furthermore the true Israelites dyd not thinke to bée purified by those outwarde thinges , but had regarde onely vnto the bloud of Iesus Christe , by them represented : And they trusted but onelye in the mercye of God . But those ●éere doe attribute the vertue vnto the outwarde woorke , and to the creature , sayinge that such Ceremonies , and Sacraments , haue efficacy by the vertue of the woorke done : Or if thou louest rather in theire naturall language . Ex virtute operis operati . Nowe Ex virtute operis oper. ●●● if the Prophetes haue rebuked and condempned the vipocrites who haue put the whole trust of their health and Esa. 1. 2. 12 saluation vnto the ceremonies commaunded by the lawe of God , and haue reiected and reproued their sacrifices and purifications , how much more are our hipocrits to be condemned , which do not only make a god of their works , but which is worse , doe make the same of the woorkes which are nothing at all commaunded of God , but altogether condempned .

Hillarius .

Wée may rightly compare them vnto those good merchaunts , of whom Ouid maketh mencion after this manner .

Hard by Capena gate there is Fast . 5. of Mercury a well , Wherein is vertue rare and straunge as cunning folkes doe tell . For Merchaunts doe thether repaire with pitcher ready pight , And therewithall doe water drawe , by vertue of whose might The Laurell branch is dropping wet , and all those things that shall By Masters right be set to sale , are sprinckled therewithall . And after that his head is wet by sprinckling of the bayes , Vnto the Gods in wonted wise his prayer thus he sayes : Wash off ( sayth he ) my periury of those times that are past , Wash of my false and fained woords my falsehood now off cast .

Bycause that they holde and accompt Mercurius for the God of the théeues , it semeth vnto them that the one of the théeues wyll easelye absolue the other , and that the larcenies , periuries and rapines shall be washed away as soone as they shal cast a little water vpon them . Wherfore our Papistes knowing that they haue the like God in the earth , do the like .

Theophilus .

Therefore it is more then néede to crye with Esay : Be ye washed , Be ye The true wasshings . Esa. 1. d. 16 cleane . But how ? Put away the euill from your thoughts , before mine eyes , saith the Lorde . And with Ieremy : O Hierusalem , wash thine hearte from wickednes . And with Iere 4. d. 14 Mat. 27. c. 25. Iesus Christ : Thou blind Pharisie , clense first the inside of the Cup and Platter that the outside of them maye bée cleane also . Giue almes of that you haue , and béehold all thing is cleane vnto you . And therefore must wee say Luc. 11. 5. 41 with Dauid : O purge mée with Isop and I shal be clean , wash thou mée and I shal be whiter then Snowe . For Psa. 51. b. 9 The true holy water . The sprinckling of Isope . there is none , which can make that holy water , but he only , who hath put the ministry of his Gospel in his Church , which is the true sprinkeling of Isop , which thorow the preaching of Iesus Christ crucified , sprinkeleth and purgeth with his precious bloud our soules and consciences .

Hillarius .

There is nothing truer , then that thou sayest , as I will yet declare more perticulerly First , as touching the purifications & sprinklings of water , that is already too muche proued , & of the same is taken that which Ouid writeth of Deucalion and Pirrha his wife , willing to enter into the Temple of the Goddesse Themis , of whom he speaketh after this manner , after the translation of the English Poet.

Whose sacred liquor straight they tooke Ouid. Meta. 1 and sprinkled with the same Their heads and clothes : and afterward to Themis Chappell came .

In like manner Ouid rehersing the things which were Fast. 2. called Februa , bicause that the auncients vsed it in their purgations , maketh mention of the woll , salt , meale , and bowghes which they caused to be consecrated for diuers purifications of men , beasts and houses : the which things the Papists haue almost altogether the like . For besides the water and the fire , the war and the salt , they haue as many holy wolles , holy linnen clothes and sacred vestements . They haue the holy bread , and the bread of Sainct The holy bread Q of S. Agathe Agathe , which hath also great power : and the holy bowghs vpon the day of Palme Sunday , and of Caster flowers . But the Panims do approche neerer to the auncient lawe of Moses in their holy asshes , then the Papistes . For The holy asshes Aum. 19. 4. 1 the Iewes dyd it with a red Cow , young and which neuer carryed yoke . The Panims dyd theirs with a young Calfe , newely taken from his mothers belly , the which the most auncientest of the virgins of the Goddesse Vesta , as wee may say the mother of the Prioresse burned in that holy fire which was made vpon the aulter of the saide goddesse , as it appeareth by these verses of Ouid saying .

The eldest virgin amongst them then , those calues doth burn with fire Fast . 4 To haue the asshes not to seeke , when time shall then requite . That when the feast of Pales doth , approch at hand so fast , The people may be pure and cleane , when it is on them cast . Theophilus .

I doubt not but that Panish superstition was some thing taken of the imitation of the people of God but that whiche was done by the people of God , vnto his honoure , and contayninge the misteryes of the redemption : was done in Idolatrye and superstition without faith amonge the Panims : as it is now amonge the Papistes .

Hillarius .

I am of thine opinion . But yet neuerthelesse mee thinketh that the Panims haue more shewe and colour , for to defend them by the word of God . But bicause that that holy asshes was done in the daye of the feast of the Goddesse Pales , and that I haue yet to speake of otter Goddesses here before mencioned , let vs returne vnto the feast of Candlemas and afterwardes let vs fall againe to the asshes , after that I shal haue a little followed certeine other conformities , the whiche I haue alreadye Cal. lee . aut li. 17 ca. 18. some thinge beganne . I haue alreadye touched howe you doe attrybute the same tytles vnto the Uirgyn Mary , Titles of the Goddesses of the Panims . whiche the Idolaters haue giuen vnto Iuno , Diana , Ceres and Proserpina , whom they haue called some of them Quéenes of Heauen , the others Ladies without Luc. 1. e. 48. Our Lady . a tayle . Shee called hir selfe the handemayde and seruaunt of the Lorde , and you doe call hir our Lady , as though there were in Heauen Lordes and Ladyes , as there is in the Earth : and a King and a Quéene as there is a Sunne and a Moone .

Theophilus .

The Scripture admitteth but one king One onely king and Lord. 1. Tim. 1 d. 17 Apoc. 19. c. 16 of the worlde , immortal and inuisible and onely wise , vnto whome onelye belongeth all honour and glorye , and in whose thigh is written : King of Kings and Lorde of Lordes . Uppon whiche also wée haue the witnesse of the Apostle , saying : Although that there bée 1. Cor. 8. b. 5 many Gods & manye Lordes in the worlde ( to witte after the reputation of the Idolaters ) yet neuertheles vnto vs , there is but one God and one Lord.

Hillarius .

Afterwards you doe make the same honour Flora. Lact. de fal . re. li. 1. ca. 20. vnto the Uirgyn Mary , which the Romaines dyd vnto the Harlot Flora , whome they haue made a Goddesse and canonised hir , bicause that shée made them heyres of hir goodes , whiche shée hadde gayned by whoredome . Chloris Ouid. Fast. 4. 5. And afterwardes for to couer and hyde their honoure , haue called hir Chloris , and haue giuen vnto hir power to make the Earth to fructifie and increase . Doe yée not greate honoure vnto that holye Uirgyn , to giue vnto hir Flora , that abhominable bawde and harlot for a compaignion ? or to put hir in hir place ? And the tyme agréeth well to the feaste . For the Florales and the feaste of Candlemas of Flora were dedycated vnto Florales . all lycenciousenesse , shamelesse playes , vpllaynies and dissolutions , the whiche the false Christians doe practise , all that time whiche is betweene the Kinges and Shroftyde , afterwardes they beginne agayne at Caster and doe contynue vntyll the moneth of Maye , and almoste all the yeare .

But chiefely at the feasts of Caster & in May after their Proserpina & Hecate . lamentations of Lent. Furthermore the Panims do hold Proserpina & Hecate for the Goddesse and Quéene of hell , and do light vnto hir Torches and candels and doe beséech hir for the dead , to the ende shée be fauourable , as well for hir owne parte , as towardes hir husband Pluto . And you , do ye muche lesse of the Uirgin Mary , you doe Queene of heauen and of hell call hir Quéene of heauen : And you do make hir Quéene of hell and of the dead , as the Poets doe of Hecate , whom they do also take for Proserpina and Diana vnto whom they do attribute great power in heauen and in hell : as it appeareth by that , that Virgill saith . Aene. 6.

To cast in sacred fire redemption chiefe of deedes amisse . And on Diana cals , in heauen and hell that mightie is .

Also in like manner you would make of Iesus Christ a Pluto , or at the least the difference is not great . And if you wil deny it I wil haue no more to proue it , but your prose & sequence of the dead , which is in good tyme , but yet neuerthelesse Prose and sequence for the dead without reason , beginning in Latin : Lugentibus in Purgatorio : The which for to make it the better to sound in thine eares friend Eusebius , & the better to follow the stile of the Fatists which haue made it , I wil revearse it vnto thée in verse word for worde the best & I can and if thou doe not finde the ryme so good as it is in Latine , be assured that there is more ryme and better , then there is of reason . For I do not thinke that one can finde greater blasphemy against God and the Uirgyn Mary . If I do not translate it word for worde , I will yet at the least rehearse the sentence faithfully . Giue eare then , and I will poure it forth .

1 To all them that doe dwel : in Purgatory paine Eugentibus in purgatorio &c. Residium in si . ne istius Dialog 7. Where firy furies fel : and sorrowes they sustaine , And torments doe endure : voide of solation , Come shew them some ●ecure : by thy compassion . O Mary . 2 Thou art the well alone : which washest sinnes away , Thou hydest euery one : and none thou doest denay . Extend thy hand toward : these soules and succorr shew Which thus without regard : lye languishing in woe , O Mary . 3 The dampned spirites to thee : so pitious do asplie Desiring for to bee : deliuered foom the fire . That by thee they may bee : erepted for their paine , And may in ioyes with thee : for euermore remaine . O Mary . 4 Of Dauid only kay : which heauen openest wyde , These wretches helpe streight way : which dolors do abide Let them deliuered be : from dongeon and durance , Where they do linked lye : in sorrow and greuance . O Mary . 5 A rule art thou full right : to them that thee assye , A liuely lampe of light : to them that trust in thee , Incontinent go pray : for these soules in distresse , Thy sonne that he streight way : their dolour will relesse . O Mary . 6 O Virgin thus we do : vpon thee cry and call , These soules so tangled , to : deliuer out of thrall . And pardoning their misdeed : also wee thee request , That thou wilt be their guyde : to euerlasting rest . O Mary .

Do ye not behold a goodly Letanie ? may not Iesus Christ now rest ? For the Scripture attributeth vnto him nothing , which is not here altogether , attributed vnto the creature . Wherefore I will haue none other proposition for to proue that that profe contayneth the greatest blasphemye which may be vppon the earth , but only that eyther the same that I do say is true , or els that the holy Scripture is false , and Iesus Christe is no more Iesus Christe , the Titles of Christ Iohn . 10. b. ● . Apoc. 3. b. 7 Iohn . 14. a. 6. dore , the key , and he which holdeth it , which openeth and sutteth , the way the trueth and the life , by whom onely wée haue accesse vnto the father : or onely hope , the resurrection and remission of sinnes : or only aduocate patron and mediator ? the which titles and many other like , the Scripture 1. Iohn . 2. a. 1 attributeth vnto him onelye and not vnto the creature whatsoeuer it bée , eyther in heauen or in the earth . Wilt thou now deny , but you doe make of the Uirgin Mary a Proserping : and of the other side a Ceres ? whom in like manner you doe honor by putting on of white apparel , and Write apparell with fastings & superstitious abstinences , euen as Ouid hath written of Ceres , saying .

The Goddesse Ceres best doth like Fast . 4. the garment made of white And for hir vse in garment blacke shee no thing doth delite .

Behold as touching the apparell . Giue eare also to that Fastings . Fast . 4. Coriat . le nat . deo . l. cui . which he speaketh of the superstitious fastings .

Their feasting lasted all the day till time of night drew neare And then they streight to supper went Cal. lee . an t . li. 26. ca. 20. Fast . 4. when starres in skye appeare

As muche did they in like manner vnto Isis and Cible , whom you wil bring all into the Christianitie vnder the Plat. de Osiri . & Isida . title of that good virgin . And not béeing contented with the yée do adde yet Iuno Sospita , vnto whom the title was giuen , bicause that the Panims did attribute vnto hir the vertue to Iuno Sospita . Ouid. Fast . 2. heale & saue men . For Sospita signifieth asmuch as a saueresse or woman sauer . Therefore al those the were sicke or Iupiter a sauiour . diseased did call vpon hir with Iupiter the sauiour , Iesus Christ is not sufficient for you for a sauiour , except you do adde a saueresse or a woman sauiour . It is not sufficient for you to haue him for a Porter and key bearer in heauen , but yee must ioyne to him a shee porter and shée key keeper , to the end that we should haue the Goddesse Carua The goddesse Carua porter . Fast . 6. aswell as the Panims had , vnto whom Ouid giueth such power , as you do giue in that prose vnto your newe Uirgin Mary , the whiche you haue forged and made of your owne minde . For shée which was the Mother of Iesus would not commit sacriledge , for to steale from Iesus Christ hir sonne the honour whiche to him alone apperteyneth . But marke well whether the verse of Ouid speaking of the Goddesse Carua , doth euill agrée with your prose .

Through hir great force and mighty power Fast . 6. that which is close and shet Shee doth set ope and shut againe without any mans let .

Furthermore you apply hir to you purpose , as they did the Goddesse whom they did call Muete and the Goddesse The Goddesse Muete . Dea Muta . Ouid. Fast. 2. Palis . For after that they had ended that that belongeth vnto the dead , they did also make a magicall sacrifice , to the Goddesse Muete to which they did put incence , war , beanes & other like things , & they did think the it had vertue against Sacrifice against the enemyes and backebiters their enemies , for to kéepe them , & chiefly for to stop the mouth of the euill speakers and backebiters ,

Thomas .

The poore priests shoulde haue neede to make such sacrifices against you for to bridle your mad tongues & to stop your mouths

Hillarius .

They haue the Agnus Dei of war which the Rat. diui. off . li. 6. Pope blesseth the great Satterday , which ought to haue that vertue .

Theophilus .

They néed none other sacrifice , then to to be good people , of good doctrine & a holy life , and duely to exercise the office of shepheardes , as the true disciples & ministers of Iesus Christe , & they shal easely tye the tongue of all backbiters & euil speakers : or they shal do at the least that it shal not hurt them , & that those which now do speake euil , shal finde themselues lyers if they perseuer & continue in The goddesse Pales . Ouid. Fast . 4. The purging fire . it .

Hillarius .

Yet there remaineth the feast of Palis , the Goddesse of the Shepheards , in the whiche also they did make the purging fires , and the shepheards did leape vpon the flames , thinking that by those fires they wer purified . I think that of that custome came the fires of Saint Brandons , The fires of S. Brandon and of Saint Iohn . for those that were new maried , and those of Sainct Iohn : afterwardes in that same feaste they made persumes , besides Hly as●hes . the holy asshes of which we haue already inademētion off , and of the holy water , aswell for to purge the men 〈◊〉 of m●n & o● 〈◊〉 as the beasts , and did make sprinklings vpon them , for to ●éepe them from euill● The which ceremonies Ourd hath all comprised in these vestek .

And surely I my selfe in hande . Fast . 5. the sacnfice did take The beme stalke , and the asshes which the burned Calues did make . And thrice I past the firy flames in order placed there Which all be sprinkled with the dew of droppong Lautell were . And of the perfumes in that same booke he saith Perfumes from virgins alter fetch which Vesta will giue thee For by the vet●ue of hir gift thou purified shalt bee . Thy pertumes shall be Horses bloud And asshes of a Calfe The third thing them shall be the stalkes of beanes for that behalfe Let shephearde then make sacrifice at dawning of the day Let him cast wateron the earth and sweepe the dust away . Then sheepefoldes trymly let be deckt with boughes and brauncues greene And let their wreathes and garlauds gay vppon the doores be seene Let blewish smoke likewise be made of Brimstone good and fine And let the Sheepe smeerd with the smoke , his bleating voyce resigne , Male Olyues then with fire consume , the Iuniper and Pine , And let the Laurel crackelyng leaues , be burnt in chimney thine ,

You haue also the torches and holy Candells , and the encensings and perfumes , your holy asshes , which you giue the first day of Lent : and you haue alwayes your holy water ready , and your holy torches , as remedyes agaynst all diseases and daungers , of men and of beastes , and ye doe giue and vowe them vnto the Virgin Mary , and to the Saynts and Sayntes , as they did to the Goddesse Pales , which had the charge of the beastes . the Gods of & beastes . Obiection . lob . 10. b. 9. & . ●2 b. 12 Psa. 103. c. 14. Genes. 3. d. 19. Psa. 40. b. 6

Eusebius .

Is that a thing contrarye vnto the word of God , to put holy asshes on the foreheads of the Christians , for to admonish then of their mortail condition , and fragilitie , to the ende that man ddoe remember that hée is but dust , earth and asshes , and to the earth shall retourne agayne ? Is not that a good aduertisement , for to abate the pride and arroganicie of man , and to prepare hym vnto death and to the iudgement of God ? And afterwardes , how many places of the holy Scripture are there which doe exhorte vs to humble our selues before God , with To weare sackcloth and afshes . fackecloth and asshes ? And of examples of the seruaunts of God , which haue done the lyke ? But you wyll not consider those places , but you had rather to speake euill of it , and to referre it to the Panims .

Theophilus .

I denye not , but that the auncient and true seruauntes of God haue done peuaunee , fasted and prayed , wyth fackecloth and asshes , but howe doth that that they dyd , agrée with that that you doe ?

Hillarius .

As much , as is betwéene the worke of a man and of an Ape .

Theophilus .

It is no lye . For that which the auncientes The asshes of the auncients . dyd , they did it wyth a good heart , and not by outward gestures . They dyd retourne againe vnto God by true repentaunce , confession of their sinnes , and amendement of lyfe . They made no Shrofeside nor dyd burste themselues wyth eatinge and drinckinge . They dyd not giue themselues to all dyssolutions , for to goe the nexte daye to haue a fewe afshes put vppon their foreheades , as though they woulde playe a Maske or a Iest , and to mocke wyth God and wyth men . Thery absteyned The fastings of the auncients Iudg. 20. d. 26 1. Reg. 7. b. 6 Neehe . 1. b. 4. hest . 4. a. 3. Dan. 10. a. 3. Act. 13. 2. 3 not onely from certeyne meates vntyll noone , for to stuffe and fill themsclues afterwardes wyth other meates , and to eate vntill they burst : But they absteyned first form vice and sinne , and afterwardes from all pleasures , delyghtes and pompes . They absteyned from eatinge and drindcking all a daye vntill night , and sometyme continued their prayers vntill two of theire owne voluntarye wyll and good heart , when they dyd knowe that it was erpedient for them so to doe , or for to macerate and chastice theire bodye : or when they dyd sée the furour and anger of GOD kindled agaynste theyre sinnes : or when they had any great matter of weyght to doe , to the which fayth is greatly required , and the ayde and assistaunce of GOD , and for to demaunde and obteyne , the prayer and orison , the which requyreth Prayer . sobrietie and abstmence , to the ende the spirite bée more frée , feruent , and more zealous to GOD . But they had no lawe , for to make difference betwéene meat and meat , other then that of Moses : nor which forbiddeth them flesh , which by the same was permitted them : nor that they bound them vnto certeyne dayes , or certeine meates , and to fast vnder paine of deadly sinne . The law of fasting Mon●anus Here ticke Euseb. hist. ec . ole. li. ● . ca. 18

For the first that made the lawe to fast was Montanus the her like , as the ecclesiasticall historye wytnesseth . Also they attributed not their health and iustification , to the merite of their fastinges and other woorkes , nor they dyd not present them vnto God , for satisfaction of their sinnes : and yet lesse the sackecloth and asshes , wherwyth they did couer themselues : But to the onely goodnesse and mercye of God . And they dyd not that , but for to wytnesse their fayth and repentaunce , which dyd bringe foorth such fruites : and for to moue and sturrethem the better to call vppon GOD , and to The profite of sackecloth and asshes . Hypocrisie . giue themselues wholy vnto him . For without the same , neyther sackecloth nor asshes , nor the abstinence of meates , wyll not profite , but for to prouoke the wrath of God , thorowe such hipocrisie , the whiche nothinge can Iohn . 8. f. 44. bée more dyspleasing vnto hym . For sith that GOD is truth , and the Father thereoff , and the Diuell is lyer and the Father of lyes , what thinge can bée more contrary vnto the nature of GOD , and hys truth , whiche ought to shine in hys children , then hipocrisie the daughter of the Diuell and of lyes ? & to lye vpon the spirite of God and his Church ? For what other thinge is hipocrisse Hypocrite . and dissimulation , but lying ? And what other thing is the hipocrite before GOD , but a dissembler , beguiler , and a scoffer , a mocker of God and men , and a very traytour and deceiuer ? who woulde bée estéemed other then hée is , and thincketh to deceine both GOD and men , caringe but for to please men , as hée whiche playeth his parte vppon a stage or seaffolde , onelye for to gette prayse and glorye : As our Lorde Iesus Christe wytnesseth of the Scribes and Pharises , who dooe all their woorkes but for the prayse of the worlde : For as Mat. 6. a. 2. & 22. a. 5 Ierem. 5. a. 3. the Prophet sayth , O Lorde thou lookest onely vppon fayth . If the best woorkes that God euer commaunded be not profitable vnto him that doeth them , if they procéede not of a true & liuely faith , without vnsaincdnesse , with a Hebr. 11. a. 1. 1. Tim. 1. a. 5 pure heart and a good conscience , without dooing it to any other ende , but to the glorye of God , and health of our neighboure , whereto then can the vare ceremonies serue , The ceremonics whiche of themselues are nothinge worth , but forasmuche as they dooe serue to more greater things , and that they are as the rudimentes , and begynnings , and the first elements & degrées , for to come and attayne vnto greater things , to that which they prepare do : As that letters , the Alphabet and the first rules Grammer , doe prepare lyttle children and younge Grammarians , to a hygher knowldge , and more greater percfection : or otherwise all that should serue them but in little steede . Therefore Saincte Paule The rodlments of the relygion Gal. 4. 2. 3 called the Iewish and Mosaiacall Ceremonies , the elementes of the worlde . They doe also serue vs as the scaffoldes which the Masons doe make for to builde a house , the which are cast away after that the house is finished . For they are of themselues vndrofitable , sauinge onely that they voe serue for a better thing . And therefore Fastings condemned Mat. 6. a. 2. let vs beholde howe our Lorde Iesus Christ , condemned the fastings of the Scribes and hipocryticall Pharises : And by hys Prophet Esay , those which absteyned onely from meates and punished theire bodyes , and couered themselues with sackecloth and asshes : But they absteyned not from dooing euyll , from plaintes and processe , from violence and rapines : as the most parte of our fasters are at this day , which do make it a conscience to eat a péece of porke , veale , mutton or of other beastes , and doe Abstinence frōbrutish flesh . Deuouring of mans flesh . make it no conscience to eate and deuoure mans flesh , and the bowels , tripes and entrayles of their Christian bretheren , thorowe their insatiable auarice and couetousnesse . And yet neuerthelesse they play the Dipocrites , and knéele downe before the Priest , for to receyue those holy asshes , as in signe and wytnesse of a greate humplitie and abiection of themselues . But if they dyd truelye beléeue that they are earth and asshes , wherefore doe A layned humilitie . not they feare the iudgement of GOD , and leaue off from their violences and ertorcions ? For they ought not to thincke , that wyth such maskes , they can content and please God , whiche hath no néede of babels , for to passe away the tyme . For the fastinge hath bene chiefely The principall vse of fasting . vsed , among the true seruaunts of God , for to helpe them in their peayer , the which is almost alwayes ioyned with fastinge , in all the places of the Scripture which maketh mention of fastinge . For that cause sayde Iesus Christe vnto his Disciples speakinge of that Diuell which they coulde not driue out of the LunatickeL That kinde of diuell Mat. 17. d. 27. cannot bée driuen out , but by fastinges and prayers : Letting them thereby to vnderstande , that they wanted To driue out the diuel by fasting and prayer . great fayth , and that their incredulitye and vnbeliefe was the cause that they could not driue hym out .

Wherfore it was most necessary for them to praye , the which requireth abstinence and sobrietie , for to bee more Incredulitie . Prayers . Abstinence from meates . The fasting and abstinence of the Panims Cal Rhod. let . aut . li. 26. c. 20. Hierome Apul. sin . aur. li. 11. spirituall and seruent . But otherwyse , the fastinge and the abstinence , which hath regarde but to the meates , why shoulde it bée more praise worthy amonge the Christians , then the abstinence of the Philosophers whiche doe absteine from fleshe ? or that of the Priestes of Isis , and Cyble , who doe absteine from eating of bread ? whom Saincte Hierome rebuked , bicause they dare not eate bread for feare to breake their fastinges , but they must make greate prouision for Phesauntes , Partriges , and other deyntie foules . They doe as ours doe , which dare not eate of the larde and fat bacon , but they séeke bothsea and lande for to finde out new delicate disshes . Is not the perpetuall abstinence from wyne which the Lurkes kept to bée preferred ? But I wyll not at this time enter into that matter of fastinges any further . For it cannot bée ended in a small tyme . But if the fastinges and such corporall exercises doe lyttle profite , excepte 1. Tim. 4. a. 3. they haue wyth them the thinges , by reason whereoff they are ordayned , to what ende can sackecloth and asshes serue : especially after that sorte as they are giuen at this daye , the which hath no lykelyhoode or agreeinge wyth the custome of the auncient seruauntes of God ? For they dyd not thincke to bée puryfied and sanctyfied by those asshes , nor that they shoulde bringe any health or saluation vnto the soule by that sprincklinge , as you doe by yours . Let the prayer , the which you doe vse in the censecration and halowinge of them : bee a witnesse in the which you doe praye God , that it woulde The blessing of asshes . Miltere digneris sanctum Angelum tuumde please hym to sende his holy Angel from heauen , to blesse and sanctifie these asshes , to the ende they maye bée a healthfull remedy vnto all those whiche doe call vpon his celis , qui benet dical & sanct ●fiees hes ●●ueres & ● . name : and that althose which de poure them vpon them , maye receiue bealish of their body , and safegarde of their soule , for the redemption of their sinnes . Those asshes should haue as much vertue as the bloud of Iesus Christ . They should haue yet more shew and colour , as already hath bene declared , to restore the auncient Iewisth Ceremonye , The asshes of an Heyser . Numeri. 19. a. 2. and to make asshes of the younge heyfer , then to doe that that they doe , or to make them of a Calfe , as the Pomaines dyd . For they shoulde haue more coulor in the holy Scripture , in the which they shall finde no institution of their asshes .

Hillarius .

If they doe not finde it in the holy Scripture . ought it not to suffice thée , that it is founde in the Balender of Ouid. But they doe adde moreouer that the Vestalles wyth those consecrated asshes , for the purgation of the people : not onely made wyth a Calfe , but Holy persumes : The macter so make the asshes Feria 4. cinerum ante missam be nedicuntur cineres facti de ramis benedictis pretcritis annisi habentur in medio hore ante altare &c. Purgaroty of the quicke and the dead . also wyth stalkes and poddes of beanes , had perfumes of Brimstone , of Torches , of the Laurell or Bay trée , of the Dliffes , of Rosemarye , and other lyke swéete and oderiferant trées and hearbes : of which your Missell teacheth you to make your asshe , to wytte of the boughes which were blessed the yeare before : and of the bandes and begins which they doe put on the little chyldren in their baptisme and confirmation . Dost thou thincke Eusebius , that those thinges doe euyll agrée wyth your Ceremonies , and the purgations that you haue nas wel for the quicke as for the dead . For sith that the bloud of Iesus Christ is not sufficient for you , it must néedes be that you haue a Purgatory both for the one and the other : But I haue yet forgotten , that at the feast of the dead , the Panims dyd shut their Temples , and couer and hide their images , as Ouid hath in lyke manner descrided by these verses .

The Gods of Churches were shut vp , Fast . 2. with close and priuy doores : And alters wanted sacrifice , none incense on them poures , Then did poore soules and bodies dead , committed to the graue Still stray abroade and feede on that set for them then to haue .

The Athenians also vsed Ceremonies altogether like vnto that feasts of Praxiergide , which they celebrated in Athens in the moneth of February , to the which the one holdeth the secrete misteries : one other pulleth downe all the ornamentes of the Temple , and an other couereth the Image that was there . Doe not you receiue and vse yet at this day all in all , those same manner of dooings , the which you haue referred to Lent , and doe stoppe the Coel. Rhod. lee . ●ut . li. 14. ca. 9. To stoppe the Idolls noses . The vayle . 2. Cor. 3. c. 1● noses of your Idolls , and hange a vayle before them , for to declare that it is taken no more from you then from the Iewes . I know not whether you be afraide least they should smel . the garlike which you eat in Lent. I wil leaue off to speake of other sperstitions & Idolatries which you haue borrowed of the Panims . For I should neuer make an ende . But I will onely shew one part of those which are descended from the feast of the dead , celebrated among the Panims , and of the purgations that they haue , aswel for the quick as for the dead : to the ende thou shouldest know that euen as you haue followed them for the purgations of the buing , so haue you done in those of the dead .

Theophilus .

It séemeth also that Tertulian would referre , that which the Corinthians Teriul . aduers . Martio . b. s. & li. dere . cor. Baptisme for the dead 1. Cor. 15. d. 29 did baptize themselues for the dead , to the Februales & purifiecations of the panims , as letting to vnderstand , that where the Corinthians dyd baptize themselues for the dead , was a superstition which they did yet kéepe of their auncient customes , crcept that in stéede of that panish superstitions , they did abuse that baptisme , thinking that it ought to serue for the dead , as we do sée in our time that they haue applyed it vnto the Lords supper , by the means of Masses that which The supper . for the dead . the superstitins Papists doe thinke to profit the dead , in whose name the Priest doth communicate and sing it . Although that the wordes of Tertulian are obscure and very harde , yet to cramine them together , it séemeth verye well that he meaneth the same , and the auncientes haue almost all taken it after that manner : notwythstandinge that others doe take it in an other sence , and doe interprete that place of Sainct Paule , of those which doe cause An other interpretation of the place . 1. Cor. 15. themselues to bée baptised , when they were in extreme sicknesse and néere vnto death . For the custome was that those which came to the sayth ( which men call the Catechumenis , bicause they are instructed in the fayth The custome of the Gatechumenus . Baptisme deferred . and Christian Religion ) dyd not of custome cause themselues to bée sodedinely baptised , vntill suche time as they were well instructed and taught in the secrete misteries , and doctrine of the Christian Religion . And therfore bycayse they had the baptisme in great reuernce , and dyd beléeue that thorow the same they had full remyssion and forgiuenesse of all their sinnes , and were altogether renued , many taryed and referred to be baptised , vntyll they were lyke to dye , thinckinge that when they dyed in such a state , they were more purewr and cleaner from their sinnes : the whiche they coulde neuer haue done , if they had not truelye beléeued and hoped for the immortalytie of the soules , and the resurrection of the fleshe . Although that the Apostles allowed not suche manner of dooinge . Those which doe take the woordes of the Apostle after such a sence and meaninge , are induced to doe it , bicause that they thincke , that if the Apostle dyd vnderstande and meane that of the Panish superstitions , that he would not haue passed it ouer , wythout To baptise them selues for the dead . rebuking that errour : and doe expound it that they should baptise themselues of the dead : that is to say , as dead , and as people which repute themseluesalready dead . I haue the willinger touched this , for to giue occasion vnto the readers , to examine well that place and the exposition of the auncientes and others .

Hillarius .

We haue sufficiently entreated of that matter Eusebius , and thinke that thou shalt haue somewhat to doe to seperate against that which we haue propounded , for to proue that your ceremonies , & prayers for the dead are taken of the true Church of Iesus Christ . For I haue rehearsed vnto thee one parte of the Popes Kalender , and mée séemeth that he ought to giue mée good wages for to end them all and his feasts : as Ouid hath written those of the Romaines .

Eusebius .

If thou haddest as well read the workes of Sainct Augustine , and of other auncient Doctors , as the bookes of Ouid and other Poets and Autors of the Panims , thou wouldest speake otherwise , and thou shouldest not haue fallen into such déepe rootes of errors and heresles in which thou art wrapped in , in such for that thou canst not come forth , what so euer thing one may propound to the contrary .

Hillarius ,

I gladly desire , if that I am plounged in so déep [ e error as thou sayest that I am , that thou wouldest ayde and helpe me to come out of it : And if I haue not reade the auncient Doctors so diligently , as thou thinkest that thou haste reade , I woulde that therein thou wouldest amende my faulte , and that thou couldest shewe mee so good out of their bookes , that I might haue occasion to content my selfe . But I doe now know by experience , that that which I thought , is true . For I doubt very much , that euen as I haue sayd at the beginning , all thy artillery , canons , and munititions with thy matter gunner Eccius , should be all consumed into smoke , as it appeareth vnto mée at this present . I did looke for certeine strong argumentes and that a great number of them , but if thou hast no other weapons , thou art not so wel armed as thou vauntest thy selfe : except peraduenture there bee some thinge more excellent in the arriere garde .

Eusebius .

Sing not the triumph before the victory . For thou art yet very farre from thy rekoning , and from that thou thinckest , the strongest is yet to doe . But with much a doe one could speake a word before thée . Thou art of the nature of women . For thou must alwayes bee balinge , and thou wouldst rather dye , but that thou wylt haue the last word . Thomas hath graunted vnto mée this day , to put foorth my reasons , and to aunswere and relye vnto yours : But euen as Theophilus and you doe ? So must I yet haue a few dayes respite , before that I can bring that that I haue to say against you .

Theophilus .

Thou doest wronge to complaine , as for my part of thou canst not say , that I euer did interrrupt thy talke , and but that I haue alwayes suffred al that thatthou wouldest speake , hearing thée in all patience and modesty .

Thomas .

I am well content for my part , to giue vnto thée the day which I ought to haue for my self , if this here be not sufficient for thee . For I haue not so much learning and knowledge , but that I am more fitter to be a hearer then a Dector .

Hillarius .

Wée wil giue thée as long time as thou wilt . But peraduenture you do not vndestand where Eusebius griefe lieth and on whiche side his shooe wringeth him . I know not whether hee hath yet eate or dronke to day . As for mée yesterdayes iorney admonished mee to take a little , & to drinke a draught of wine before I came : the which thing is the cause , that I am not so much thirstly as I was the day before : although that we haue bene a long tyme about the fire . As for Thomas . I beléeue that he hath bene no more euill avuised than I , and that he is no lesse disposed to drinke in the morning . Touching Theophilus and Eusebius , I feare very much but that they are yet fasting . For Theophilus is a man very studious and fover , which to eate little & late , infomuch that I do more greatly esteeme his sobriety & dayly & ordinary abstmence , then the fastings of the priests & Moonks . As for E●sel m● , he is so superstitious that he fauoreth ●em what Mooukish . wherefore I doubt not , but for to make han obedient to the holy Mother the Romish Church , doth fast , sith that according to the ordinaunce of the same , it is the day of fast .

Eusebius .

it is néedefull , that I and others do fast . For I am certeine , that if the fastin●g had none other mainteiners then thou and such as thou art , they should bee soone abolished . Hellarms . I know not what I should voe , but at the least I am at this day ayded to mainteine them : and a litle wanted , but that I haue learned theée to faste after the auncient manner . But thou oughtest not to finde that straunge . For sith that we haue spoken of fasting , it was in like manner requisit to practise it . Yet neuerthelesse the eueming and the night are not yet come , whiche was the time and the houre that the auncients vsed to reast themselues on the fasting dayes . but to the end thou haue none occasion to complaine , I thinke it best , that thou doe defer that which thou hast yet to say , vntill after drinking : & for my part , I promise thee to suffer thée to speake as much as thou wilt , and I will kéepe so good silence , that thou shalt not checke mée , as thou hast now done .

Eusebius .

I am content with that thou saiest , so thou do kéepe thy promise . But I greatly feare , that thou wilt do nothing .

Hillarius .

Thou shalt sée , & before that thou do sleepe thou shalt haue the experience . For I will leaue it ot thée and to Theophilus to do . Then let vs go to refresh our bodies , and in the meane time preprare thy selfe for to fight valiantly .

THE SVMME OF THE fourth Dialogue .

BIcause that the enemies of the truth doe glory in themselues that they haue the auncient Doctors on their side , for to mainteine their abuses and supersticions : in this Dialogue Eusebius trauayleth all that he can , for to vphold his Religion , & to proue his intent by the Ecclesiasticall Doctors : vnto whom Theophilus sheweth how hee corrupteth and peruerteth the sence and intelligence of their words , and how they do condemne the errors and abuses of the Papistes : by occasion whereoff , is also declared wherin somtime the auncient Doctors haue bene deceiued and ouercome , following more the opinion of men , then the certein witnes of the word of god : And when , & how the papistical Purgatory hath begun : what foundation , stay & shore it hath . It is also amply intreated of what original and beginning the priuate and perticuler Masses came , and the custome to sing them for the dead , and the dispising of the holy sacrament of the supper of Iesus Christ , and of the true Christian Communion . And therefore this Dialogue is entituled , the Age of the Masse and of Purgatory , bicause that it sheweth how it was borne , encreased & augmented , & the Purgatory in like manner .

¶ THE FOVRTH DIALOGVE which is called the Age of the Masse and of Purgatory . THomas .

As farre as I can presume by the words which I haue heard of Eusebius , I trust that I shal heare you to bring foorth a matter , the which will please mée wel , & which I desire greatly to vnderstand . For I sée dayly , that men do blame you , which are taken and accompted for Heretickes , to corrupt & peruert the sence of the holy Scriptures . Men doe vnto you this honour , to say , that you will not receiue the witnesse nor the authoritie , but of the holy Scripture , and that you doe proue by the same all that which you put foorth , hut all the euil is in this , that you take them to your aduantage , and turne and wrest them to your sence and carnall intelligence , and therefore you will not receiue the expositions of the good Doctors . But I will sée now , howe you canne beare it , and whether the Doctors of the Churche are of our side or on yours . And therefore I pray thée Eusebius , that thou doe pursue thine enterprise , and that thou shew forth so good places , that they cannot be easely plucked from thy hands , as they haue done those which thou hast alreadye taken of Sainct Ambrose .

Eusebius .

If I would display and shew foorth all that that I might alleadge , aswel of the new and late Doctors as of the aun●ient , I should aswell set them a worke , as Hillarius did vaunt himselfe of late to haue set mée on worke , but I haue not determined to alleadge others , but of the most auncientest and of those whiche are of more greater authorite in the church , by the which I will plainly proue , that that which we doe now in the fauour of the dead , descended from the primatiue Churche and from the The proposition and intent of Eusebius traditions of the Apostles . For if I would bring foorth the Doctors of late dayes , they would by and by reicete and despise their authoritie , and woulde make none accompte of it : But when I shall haue proued , that the auncient Doctors of the Churche are on our side , I shall by and by allow and confirme the authoritie and witnesse of the late Doctors , and will more easelier stoppe their mouthes : except they bée so past shame , that they care leproue and condemne all the holy men and Pillers of the Church , which haue shored and held it vppe in the time of the Apostles , and to affirme that there are not so manye good men and so wise and learned as they are .

Theophilus .

Thou shalt not finde vs so vnreasonable . Put foorth thy case , afterward Iudge whether wée haue reade and vnderstanded those of whom you doe glorye so much in .

Thomas .

I haue heard thée speake friend Fusebius of S. Augustin Sainct Augustine namely among others , and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefest , by whom thou mayst better fight , then by any other , if thou canst finde in him a strong staffe for to defende thee and to make warre against them . For I haue vnderstanded that there is none amonge al the auncient Doctors which wil serue them better for to proue their sect , then hée . Wherefore I am sure , that if thou canst do so much , that thou canst proue that he is contrary vnto them , they shall receiue a great ouerthrow , and thou shalt make a great breach in their Castle . For if hée so whome they haue their recourse , be their enemie , they shal haue others which will rise against them .

Eusebius .

But so well assured theroff , as thou are certeine that it is now daye . And to the end thou shouldest not thinke that there are but vaine wordes in my case , I will shew vnto them the experience . What do those wordes signifie which are written in his Encheridion : which are also recited in the decrets Confes li. 9. ca. 12. 13. Cha. 110. & 109 13. q. 2. ca tempus . 4. sen● . dist. 45. Ne●ue . and in the master of the sentences , saying : we must not denye , that the soules of the dead are comforted thorewe the pietie and deuotion of their friends that be aliue , when the sacrifice of a mediatour is offered for them , or that almes is done in the Church . But those thinges doe profite those who haue merited them during this lyfe , The authoritie of S. Augustin for the suffrages of the dead . to the ende that they maye afterwarde profite them . For there is a certeine manner of liuing , whiche is not so good but that it requireth those things after death ? nor so euil , but that after the same , they may profit him . But there is in lyke manner some kinde of lyfe so good , that it requireth not the same . And againe some so euill that The diuersity of lyues it cannot haue ayde by those thinges , after that this life shal be ended . And therefore hee getteth here all the merite , by whiche anye maye bee reléeued or gréeued after this life . Yet neuerthelesse , there is none whiche hopeth to be able to merite towardes GOD , when he shall bée dead , whereoff hée hath not here made anye accempt . This then whiche the Churche hath frequented , for to prayse the dead , is not contrary vnto that sentence of the Apostle , which sayth : wée shall all bée brought before the Rom. 14. c. 10. 2. Cor. 5. b. 10 iudgement seat of Christ , that euery man may receiue the workes of his body , according to that hée hath done , whether it hee good or badde . For euerye one acquireth and getteth that merite , when hée lyued in this bodye , that those thinges maye profite him . For they profite not all men . And wherefore doe they not profite all men , but bycause of the difference of the lyfe , the whiche euerye one hathe lead in his bodye ? Then when the Sacryfices , bée it of the Aulter , or of almes déedes , what soeuer they bée , they are offered for all the dead whiche haue bene baptised , those are giuing of thankes for those whiche haue bene verye good : and propitiations for those whiche haue not bene very euill , for to make God fauorable vnto them . But for the moste wicked and euill , although that there bée not aydes and helpes for the dead , yet neuerthelesse those are certeine consolations for the lyuing . But they doe profite those that they doe profite , eyther to the ende that they maye haue full remission and forgiuenesse : or without all ●eubt , to the ende that the dampnation maye bée more tollerable and easier to beare .

Thomas .

Hath Sainct Augustine written that ?

●usebius . Doest thou thinke mée so much a foole , that & would declare it otherwise ? I warrant you they would not let mee passe so , if they might saye the contrary . But I am certeine they dare not do it . And though they woulde , they cannot . For the booke is of faith and credit .

Thomas .

Those wordes are very cléere , not onely for to proue the prayers for the dead , but also the sacrifice of the ●ulter .

Eusebius .

One cannot finde a thing more cléerer . For it openeth so plainely all the matter perticulerly , and goeth before the obiections & replyings , which those that do speake against it might make . For it deuideth the diuers manners to liue , and diuers merites of men : And giueth In. ser●le vir . apo. & in gles . super ulud . ● . Thessa . 4. Nolimus : de agentibus curs . promor . 13. q 2. ca. non estimantus to vnderstand , that it must bée hée which woulde that such good déedes should bée profitable vnto him after hys death , should be here conducted in such sorte , that they may profit him : that is to say , that it must bée that he dye confessed and repentant . And hée speaketh not onely this in this place , but in manye other like , amongest whiche hée addeth yet this : that notwithstanding that that which we do for the dead , profit not all those , for whom wée doe them . Yet neuerthelesse bicause we do not know to whom it profiteth . we must do them to all , that we leaue none out . For it is a greate deale better that those to whome it can neither profit nor hurte , should haue more then they neede , then to want any thing vnto those which haue neede . And in the same booke he saith moreouer : wee doe reade in the second booke of the Machabees , that sacrifice was offred for the dead , but when one readeth them not in the auncient scriptures , the authoritie of the vniuersall Church is not little , the which hath this custome , that in the prayers of the Priestes , which they doe make vnto God at his aulter , the recommendation of the soules hath also his place . And did 〈…〉 not Monica the Mother of Sainct Augustine , require that they should make remembraunce of hir in the sacrament of the aulter ? For that cause hath Sainct Gregory written , that the soules of the dead are deliuered in scure manners and sorts , either by the oblations of the Priestes , Vnde versus exsiella clerice . & 10. chanes . de sacram . M●ssa , preces , ●ona , tetunia , quatuor ista . Absoluimus animas quas purgans detinet ignis . or by the prayers of the Sainctes : or by the aimes of their friendes : or by the fastinges of their parents . I doe not thincke , that these two learned men , would haue written suche thinges , wythout hauinge foundation of the holye Scriptures . And it is not lyke , that the Church hath kept that custome so longe time , but that shée was well assured that it came from the Apostles , and afterwardes was augmented and ordayned by Origene , as witnesseth Isidore . for from the tyme of Sainct Denis and Tertulian , who were next vnto the Apostles , they made prayers , sacrifyces and oblations for the dead . For Sainct Denis maketh expresse mention D●rand in rati . diu● off . li. 7 Rub de off . mort . Diony. li eccle. hier cap. 7. of the prayer which the Bishop made for the dead , that God woulde pardon him all that that hée myght haue committed through mans infirmitie , and that he woulde place him in lyght , and in the region and countrey of the liuinge , and in the bosome of Abraham 〈◊〉 and Iacob . It is in lyke manner written in Tertulian wee doe make yéerely one daye ●●oblation for the dead . I haue declared vnto thée many witnesses and of great authoritie . I haue alledged vnto thee the custome of the auncient Church : which is a witnesse which is worth a thousande . I haue alledged vnto thée the practise of the auncient Doctors . They doe sufficiently declare , both they haue vsed , and chiefely Sainct Augustine : who ●●●●●festly witnesseth , that the same was ordeyned of the authors , 4. sent. dist. 45 neque . Sermo de vers. apo in glo . super illud . 1. Thess. 4 Nelumus . which the vniuersall Church kéepeth , that is no say , that for those which are dead in the communion of the body and bloud of Christ , when one maketh remembraunce of them in their place , in the sinne very socrifice , that one ought to maye , and make remembraunce , that one doe also offer that sacrifice for them .

Wherefore he sayth , that we must not omit the supplication , the which the Church hath taken in charge to doo De cur . pro. mor agere . cap. 4. Quast ●d . dul●● for the spirites and soules of all the dead , which are departed in the Christian society and company .

Theophilus .

I thinke that thou hast very strongly dysplayed and set foorth the principall weapons that thou canst finde for to defende thy quarrell , and that if I haue once satisfied those obiections , I beleeue that the matter shall bée ended as soone as hée toucheth the witnesse and authoritie of the auncient fathers . As touching Sainct Denis and the authour of that booke of the celestiall and ecclesiasticall Hieratchies , I haue already The answer & solution to the obiections . ready tolde thée what it was . For who knoweth not , that that booke of the celestiall Hierarchia , is more worthy to be some dreamer , then of Sainct Denis the Disciple Denis Areopagite . Act. 17. g. 34. of Sainct Paul ? For it hée had written eyther of the Angels or of the order of the Church , hée had woulde rather haue followed Sainct Paule his Master , then the dreames of his owne head : and hée woulde not haue spoken of such matters , otherwise then hée in his Epistles . If thou doe diligently reade that booke of Denis , whatsoeuer it bée , thou shalt there finde , that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for those that bée aliue , and not for the dead : And doth confirme that which wée haue already spoken off , of the manner whiche the auncientes had to prayse the dead . Wherefore it shoulde not bée néedefull to reiterate that whiche alreadye hath bene opened before , if thou wouldest vnderstande that which one telleth thée : But wee are alwayes to beginne wyth thée . I haue already sufficiently declared vnto thee , from what originall and beginninge the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came firste , and what hath bene the custome of the auncient fathers , the which was altogether contrary from that whiche is nowe in the Popish Church . Wherefore that whiche thouhast alledged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirme my matter , as I wyll proue vnto thee by Cyprian , that holy Martyr , who hath read and well vnderderstanded Cyprian . Tertulian , if euer man dyd vnderstand him . For hee had him in such reputation that hee dyd call him The prayse of Tertulian . no otherwyse but the Master thorowe his great excellentnesse : Insomuch that when hée woulde reade in hys bookes , he sayde alwayes , bringe mée the master . And the better to declare the pleasure that hée dyd take in readinge him , and the fruite that one myght therein learne & receiue , they saye that hee laide it at nyght when hée went to bed , vnder hys pillolue that hee nyght haue it alwayes ready at hande , when hee woulde occupye and looke in it : as the auncient historyes doe also wytnesse , that Alexander the great dyd myth the bookes of Homere . For hée giueth vs sufficiently to vnderstande that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead , in that auncient Churche , were none other thinges then the prayses and giuinge of thankes , which the faythfull did render vnto God , for the mercy that he did vnto their bretheren , whome hée hath called from this world : with the other thinges , whiche haue bene already spoken off , which are yet done at this daye in some places in Almaigne , after the auncien● manner . But they doe call commonly the oblation and sacryfice , the diuine seruice , and that which they dyd in theire assembles in which they did obserue chiefly foure things : The first was the prophecie and preaching of the worde of God . After the prayers . Afterwards the supper , and last what doth the sacrifice signifie in the auncient church . of all , the gatherings and almos for the poore . And they did call that oblation and sacrifice : not that they dyd vnderstand and meane to offer and sacrifice : Iesus Christe , as the Priests say that they doe in their Masse . But bicause The order of the assembles of the auncient church . Act. 2 g. 46 The christian sacrifices . Rom. 13. a 1 Heb. 13 c. 15 Psal 50. c. 14. 2. Cor. 8. 2. 4 that the Bishop and Pastor of the church , and al the Christian people did come to offer & present themselues vnto god , & did offer vnto hym their orisons & giuing of thanks , which are the true sacrifice of praise . And their almes in like manner , for to confort the poore people of Iesus Christ : They are those which the Apostle calleth offerings agreeable vnto God . And they did make commemoration of the death & passion of Iesus Christ in celebrating the holy supper . Wherfore we must not thinke , that they did make prayers & offerings for the dead , to the ende they should be deliuered frdi● the paines of Purgatory ; as hath bene done in our time : But the praiers were the prayses , and thanks that they rendered vnto God , and exhortations and admonitions which they dyd make by his word vnto those that bée liuinge . The offeringes were of the almes that the faythfull dyd bring , for to succour & helpe the poore which were liuing . And therefore long time amonge the auncientes , Hist. tri . li. 6. ca 28. & li. 7. ca. 31. 32. that diuine so●●ke that they dyd in their assemblies , was called Collectes , that is a gathering , for two causes . The first bycause that the people was ther assembled , and gathered into a Communion . The other bicause that in those holy assembles , they dyd make gatheringes for the poore after the example of the primitiue Church . Behold the name of the Christian assemblies , which hath longe contynued amonge the auncientes , before that the name of Masse was borne . As it appeareth by the ecclesiasticall hystories , as well by that same of Eusebius , as by that which is called Tripertite : As for the name of the Masse , it is nowe inough . Although that some are yet of opinion , that that name came of the same cause , wherefore the diuine seruice hath also bene called Collectes : gatheringes , and that it hath bene called masse , bicause that in the same the offerings were brought , which were there sent , for to giue them vnto the poore . For Missa in Latine , signifieth things sent . And those that are of that opinion , doe thinke that all that which they doe , and bring into those assembles , was called Missa in the plurall number : of which they haue made Missa and Misse , in the singuler number . And by good right . For then when the offeringes are distributed vnto the poore , one maye well call them Missa in the plurall number , that is to saye , sent. For they were sent , and deuided vnto many .

But nowe the Priestes doe wronge to call it , Missa , in the singuler number , that is to saye , sent. For the offeringe is not sent but vnto them . Wherefore they should haue more reason to cal it , kept , then sent . For they do kepe al for themselues . They haue wel kept the name of Collect. But in stéede of Collect , signifieth , amonge the auncyents , all the content of the diuine seruice , they do call by that name the prayers and Oremus that they doe singe before the Epistle , Wherein well appeareth what was the custome of the auncientes : and that the Deacons did make the gathering for the poore : The which those héere doe make for themselues , and doe singe the Epistle vnto the Deacons . But for to retourne vnto the prayers for the dead , and for to vnderstande that that which I speake is true . Marke what Saincte Cyprian wryteth , of one Cypr. li. 4. epist . 5. Celerin and his family . called Celerin , who hath had a familie : the which almost all suffered martyrdome , of whom he hath written after this manner : It is longe a gone , that Celerin was crowned for a Martyr . Item , his vnckle of the fathers side , and Laurence his vndle on the mothers side , and Ignacius , which sometime haue fought and bene souldiers in the worldly warre , but béeinge the true and spirituall souldiers of God , hauing ouercome the diuell thorow the profession of Christ , haue obtayned of the Lorde the rewardes and crownes , thorowe his glorious passion . We doe offer alwayes , as you remember , sacrifices for them , Sacrifices for the Martirs . as often as wée celebrate the passions of the martyres . and that we make commemoration and remembraunce vniuersally of their dayes . Sith that hée witnesseth that Laurence and Ignacius haue receyued as béeing victoryous the palmes and and crownes of martyrdome , there is no doubte , but that they are already holden for Saintes and blessed : and doe not thinke that they were yet deteyned August . in epist ad Hebr. ca. 12 Extra de cele miss. cum Mat. ca. vlt. Sent. 4. dist. 45. Neque . Glosan 13. q. 2 caaempus . Imurs . m facit Martirs qui orat pro Martiri in the paines of Purgatorye , and that wée must make prayers and sacrifices for them , that they myght bée deliuered from their sinnes and paines . The thinge is so plaine that none can denye it . For this sentence is very common and allowed amonge you , and by your Canons : That hée that prayeth for a Martyr , doth wrong and iniurye to the Martyre . For I doubte not , but that in successe of time , all thinges will bée come worse . And aboue all I wyll aduertise thée , that thou hast not proued vnto me that that manner of dooing was ordained by the Apostles in the primitiue Church . For sainct Augustine and others , whome thou hast alledged , doe make mencion that the auncient fathers , haue bene the authours and inuentours of that custome , and that the Church of longe time hath kept it : But they declare not , that Iesus Christ nor his Apostles , haue commaunded and ordained it . And although that that Denis which Dyoni . hier eccle. ca. 7. hath written the Hierarchies , maketh onely in one word mencion of the prayer for the dead which are buryed , yet he proueth not by the holy Scripture , that wée ought to doe it : and hée speaketh not one woorde of Purgatorye . But yet that that hée toucheth of the prayer for him whiche one buryeth , is written after a sorte , that he doth sufficiently declare that if was a vowe and a desire that the faithfull had of his health and saluation , and a witnesse that they doe giue , not that the same came of an opinion that they had eyther of Purgatory , nor of the paines which the soules of the faithfull shoulde suffer after their departinge from this life . Wherefore their witnesse serueth mée , for to proue , at the leastwise that suche custome is not of the ordainaunce of the Apostles , sith that they cannot bring foorth any other certeine wytnesse , but that they report it vnto the auncient fathers For by that which hath bene already declared and expressed , it is easely to know what the commemoration of Martyres haue bene , and of the faithfull that bée dead sithence the tyme of Tertulian and Cyprian . And doubt not but that that which the auncients haue done , was partlye and principally for to abolish the Parentales and other superstitions which the Gentiles had about the dead , as already hath bene amply declared . For they did thinke that it would be very hard so pul them away , if in stéed of their customes , they had not put in some other , for so content them & for them to muse and studye oil : As wée maye sée by that Ad. Aurel. epi. 64. which Sainct Augustine hath written , of gluttony and dronkennesse which was vsed in his time of the buryalls of the dead and in halowinge the Churchyardes . He sayth that they cannot bée abolyshed , if one dooe not forbid that villany by the Scriptures , and that the oblations which they make for the soules of the deade vppon theire sepulchres , bée not sumptuous , nor of great cost , and that one shoulde giue cheerefully and wythout pride , vnto all those that demaunde it , and that they sell them not . But if there bée any that will offer anye money , that it bée distrubuted presently vnto the poore . Sainct Augustine gyueth sufficientlye to vnderstande that the auncientes haue bene constrayned to inuent and bring foorth many Ceremonyes in the Churche , for to chase and driue awaye the Idolatry and superstition of the Panims : The which also afterwardes were corrupted , as wée may sée this day by experience , insomuch that they are more daungerous , then those of the Panims , I thinke that that which hath bene alreadye entreated , of the feast of Sainct Peters chaire , the whiche they celebrate in February , agréeth to that very purpose whereoff Sainct Augustine hath spoken .

Hillarius .

It is most true , that those auncient fathers would haue driuen away the superstition by such inuentions , as wée do driue out a pinne with one other pinne . But they were not muche profitable vnto the Church .

Theophilus .

After that manner came the custome to make commemoration of the dead in the ecclesiasticall assembles and in the celebration of the supper , ouer and beside the causes before alledged . And afterwardes by little and little , the superstition hath begun , and is augmented vnto this which we doe now sée it . We haue no example The beginning of Masses for the dead . in all the holy Scripture , that the Apostles haue done any thing of this . About the time of Tertulian and of Cyprian , there was no question neither of Purgatory , nor of prayers nor offeringes , for to delyuer the soules , but such which wée haue séene . About the tyme of Ambrose and Augustine , the superstition dyd beginne very much to take roote and to increase , insomuch that in stéede of simple commemorations , giuinge of thanckes , and exhortations , which they made in celebratinge the memory of the dead , they had already begunne to dyspute , that the prayers dyd profite them : and that the The beginning of Purgatory . question of Purgatorye was alreadye begunne to bée sturred vp . For it is very easie for men , yea , the most sage and wysest , to fall into superstition , bicause that it is naturall vnto vs , and chiefely about the dead , by reason of an affection and loue that wée doe beare vnto our parentes and friendes , whome wée cannot forget , although they be absent from vs , but wée doe abide and continue alwayes affectioned towardes them , as though we might greatly ayde them , yea , many tymes more after they bée dead then before when they were alyue . From thence it commeth that we are so much inclined to inuent and receiue euery thing that wee thincke maye serue them . And althoughe in déede it serueth them to no ende , yet neuerthelesse wée cannot refraine our selues , bycause that . wée thinke that wée doe féele comforte and satysfaction to our affection , iudgeinge the affection of the dead , after our owne , our dealinges is fowardes them , as towardes God . What is the originall and begynninge of all Idolatry , but our foolishe fantasse and affection , by the which wée doe measure God , thinkinge that The original & beginning of all Idolatry . hée taketh pleasure to that that pleaseth vs ? Wherefore wée serue him not after his wyll , but after ours . For in makinge feastes , in reposinge our selues , béeinge apparayled with goodly robes and gownes , makinge greate chéere , hearinge goodly singinges and melodyes , walkinge about and passinge the time in goinge a procession , w●e thincke that wee doe serue God well . But what seruice doe w●e vnto him ? Doe we not rather serue our selues and our affections , making vnto vs a God altogether like vnto our selues , deliting our selues in the like vanities ? As much is happened vnto vs aboute the dead . Foolissh assestiō towards the dead .

Hillarius .

When a man is angry , yet it doth him much good to reuenge himselfe vpon some one , for to make hym passe away his sorrow and anger , although hée do receiue no great profit . Euen so when a man is in sorrowe and beauines , for the death of his friend , hée muste haue some solace and comfort , for to comfort his sorrow & heauinesse . And thereoff it came that the woman that loueth well hir husbande , or the mother , hir childe , oftentymes cannot refrayne to kisse them after that they shal be dead , or to embrace them , & some time with more greater affection , then euer she dyd during the tyme that he lyued . But wheretoo profiteth all that , eyther to the quick or dead ?

Thomas .

Nothing at all .

Hillarius .

And yet neuerthelesse that doth great good vnto hir that doth it , and sh●e is so affectioned .

Theophilus .

Of The originall of Im●ges . Sap●en . ● . ● . b. 15 such affection came in like manner the beginning to make Images , as it shewed vnto vs in the booke of wisdome , yea almost the beginning of all Idolatry , as all the auncient Fathers do witnes , especially Lactantius & Eusebius . Lact. de fal . rcl li. a. ca. 13. Euseb. de pra ena li. 3. ca. 8 For the men for the affection that they did beare vnto the dead to comfort the sorrow that they had , & to remember them , and besides to honour them , they made Images , and set vppe sumptuous Sepulcres in their honour . Afterwardes they began to buyld Temples and Chappels hard by their graues , and to set therein their Images . Afterwardes in successe of time , all was conuerted and chaunged into great superstition and I●olatry . And euen as it begun among the Panims , so is it entred among the Christians , The beginning of the Idolatry among the Christi●is . by occasion of the Sepulcres of the Martirs . For they haue begunne to make there their Ecclesiasticall assemblies , to go thither to watch , and pray vnto God , and to celebrate the supper . Afterwarde they haue builded Chappels and Temples , and haue ordeyned Annuall feastes . And after that those foundations were once sette vppe , which was yet some thing tollerable , the thinge was afterwardes peruerted . Insomuche that in stéede of the Candles that they caryed for to watch all the night , they The ●ardell● of a good 〈◊〉 . began to offer them to the Saincts , and to their Images . In steede of the prayers that were made vnto god , they haue begun to addresse & direct them vnto them . In st●ede of that supper 〈◊〉 of S●mes . that they celebrated in the name of the death & passion of Iesus Christ , they haue also begun to adoe the ●ememoration of the Saynts & Sayntes : And theroff came that Commemorantes which is in y● Eauen of the Masse , in which they doe make Comm●morites ●●p●●sse remembrance , of some Saints & Saint●s . And afterwards by little & little , in st●ede of the simple commoration which is done of the Saincts & Sanctes , they haue begun to giue vnto euery one of 〈◊〉 , his Masse al whelly , insomuch that there is neither Saynt nor Sayntes , but hath one , & that they do cal vpon it in steed of God , & vnto whom the Priests haue not giuen some occupacion & office for to helpe & aide God in so many affaires . And after that sathan hath so well augmented his stuffe , vnder the title of Martyrs , & of their Cēmemorations , to the ende that nothing should remaine , but that it should be ful of ●dolatry & superstition , he hath also lound the meanes to make mé muse after that are dead , after an other manner . For to make them al to be worshiped as Saincts he could not . Also he knew very wel , that after the damned , men wil not much traualic nor bestowe any cost . And therfore he hath sound a third order .

Hillarius .

There doth lacke but one , but that ther should be as many as of the orders ●rders of th● dead . of the beggers . But they haue it already . For the Limbe is , for the fourth order .

Theophilus .

Therfore hath he begunne in a luckey howre , ye a sithens the time of Augustin , to forge the Purgatory : although y● them , it was not receiued nor allowed , as an article of faith , but they disputed only , as of an opinion , which hath some colour & shew . For although y● S. Augustin moued the question , & touched some thing the matter , The question of 〈…〉 . yet neuerthelesse he hath determined or concluded nothing for certein , but rather to the contrary . He hath written , that ther were some which did thinke that there was a certeine fire of Purgatory , & that the thing was not incredible . But yet neuerthelesse , he ●urst not affirme it , but spake of it as of a thing doubtsull and incertein : notwithstanding that hee ●●emeth to bee of an opinion , that the prayers made for the dead , did profit them . But when all shal be well considered , what witnes or what example doth hee alledge out of the holy Scripture , either of the olde or new testament , sufficient for to proue and confirme that doctrine ? I● he shewe foorth vnto me the custome of the auncient Church , & the traditions of the Apostles , I will demaunde vpon the same the witnes or example of the holy scripture , or of the primitiue Church . For I am certeine he shall not finde it . It is then necessary , that we do come to the next age , as was the time of Tertulian , Ireneus and other like : and afterwards from The time of Tertul●●n and Cyprian . thence vnto the same of Cyprian . For I haue already proued by their writings , that in those times they did not make such prayers for the dead , as they were after the time of Sainct Augustin . For they did them not to the intent to helpe & succour the dead , but they directed them vnto God only , for to giue him prayse & for to demaund his grace & mercy towards the lyuing : euen as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs w●ich were done about their Sepuleres , to the glory of God & consolation of the liuing , haue b●ne conuerted & chaunged to the inuocation of saincts , & they haue made Idols of them , so the commemoration which is done of other that be dead , hath bene chaunged into meritorious prayers , for to draw thé from paine , & successiuely sithency that one hath learned the custom to make a certein remembrance & mention in the ecclesiastical assibles thei came afterward to the point to make the commemoration in the supper Remembraunce of the de ●● in the supper . for to witnes that they held them of whom in the same they made remembrance for true faithful & catholicke , & of the communion of saints which in the supper is repres●t●d . 〈◊〉 the same manner ought we to vnderstád the which S. Augustin hath writté of the remembrance which they celebrated for the dead , in the sacrifice of the aulter & of a mediator , by which we ought not to vnderstand a sacrifice , in which Iesus christ our only mediator The sacrifice of the aulter & of a mediator . is offred to god his ●ather , for the rediption of our souls , as he was offred vpon the tr●e of the crosse , & after the manner as the priests do glory & boast themselues at this present time to offer in their Masse , according to the witnes of their Canon . For there is but one such Sacrifice , the whiche Iesus hath Heb. 7. d. 17 once offered , which of none other can be done , but of him alone , who is the Priesse and euerlasting bishop , after the order of Melchizedec , if we wil not be lye the holy Ghost , who spake by the mouth of the holy Apostle .

Thomas .

Of what Sacrifice then doth Sainct Augustine speake off ?

Theophilus .

Thou oughtest to vnderstand 〈◊〉 sortes of 〈◊〉 The sacrifice of reconciliation . that there bee two sortes of Sacrifices , whiche doe comprehend all that other . The first is the sacrifice of reconciliation & redemption , for to deliuer the sinners from the yre and wrath of God : But this apperteyneth but to Iesus Christ alone , of whom the Leuiticall sacrifices wer but a shadow The sacrifice of thankes giuing and figure . The other is the sacrifice of praise & thanks giuing , by which we may comprehend al the workes of the faithfull , by which they do prayse God , and doe trauiale to August . li. 10. de ciut . Dei. c. ● . 6 be ioyned vnto him . As Sainct Augustine doth expounde it . Now forasmuche as the sacrament of the holye supper of our Lord , is one of the principall things that the church But sacrifice the supper is . hath , for to glorifie God , rightly it was called by the auncients , sacrifice , as not long agoe hath bene touched : not by reason that Iesus Christe is offred vnto God by vs : But bicause that he offreth himselfe vnto vs , and that thorow faith we receiue it , and render vnto him it , ankes for the greate benefit that he hath done for vs , giuing himselfe to the death for vs : and we confesse and protest , that wee doe not take nor holde anye other for a sauiour then hée onely , nor we accept any mans sacrifice but his . For that cause hath the supper in like manner bene called Eucharistia by the Greeks : The which word signifieth giuing of Eucharis●ia . thankes . After the same manner haue Sainct Augustine and other anncient Doctors of the Churche vnderstanded it . And they vnderstand not by the aulter any other thinge The materiall 〈◊〉 of the Church . but the table vpon which the Church hath vsed to celebrate the supper , making allusion vnto the aulters of the auncient law and haue regarde to that sacrifice of thankes gyung , which in the supper is offred vnto god by his church . Behold the estate which was in the Church touching that poynt , in the tyme of Sainct Augustine , which was about The time of S. Augustine foure hundreth yeares after the death and passion of Iesus Christ , in which the church dyd begin then very much to degenerate and to be corrupted . For after that one once had begonne to myngle the commemoration of the dead with that of Iesus Christe ( for which onely the supper is celebrated , not for sinfull men , who haue not redemed vs by their death ) from one opinion and error , it is fallen into another , in suche sorte that men are fallen into such dreaming● , that they haue thought that the supper , to the which those that were a lyue dyd communicate , dyd profyt the dead , and that they might take it for them , and to their health & saluation , after the same manner as they dyd the other suffrages in theyr name .

Hillarius .

If we will vnderstand that which saint Paul hath wrytten of the Corinthians , which To take the supper for the dead . 1. Cor. 15. d. 29 baptised themselues for the dead , after the sence in which the auncients haue taken it , we should haue no lesse reason to excuse them , then those here . For if I may take the supper for an other man , wherefore may I not in lyke manner be baptised for him ? I thinke that they will not graunte we that , that one may be baptised for an other , and that Baptisme for the dead . that baptisme doth profite him , and yet lesse to the dead then to the lyuing .

Theophilus .

It is well founde out , who haue bene of that opinion , that they may be baptised for the dead , which without baptisme were departed out of Reisersperg . de mort . virt ser. Domi. 3. aduen Tho. 4. dist. 45 q. 6. this world , & that the baptisme profiteth them . But the Doctors questionaries , and namely . Thomas of Aquin , benyeth it and condempneth that opinion .

Hillarius .

If I may not then be baptised for the dead , whereto serueth or profiteth the supper that I shall take for them ? For it hath not bene more ordayned for the dead then the baptisme , but both of them were for the lyuing , aswell the one as the other , sith that both of them are Sacraments , giuen vnto the militant Church , and which is yet couered and wrapped in this flesh .

Theophilus .

There is nothing more certeyne . And yet neuerthelesse behold how the one of the errors hath drawen the other after him , insomuch that they haue begun to apply the supper , for to comfort the dead , and it seemeth that those for whom they do make commemoration , do no lesse participate , then those which do there communicate in their name . But yet they haue not holden themselues to t●at , but are fallen into another error more importable , altogether to tourne vpside downe and ouerthrow the institution of the supper , and haue defouned it , The supper d●●ormed . insomuche that it séemeth nothing at all like to the communion that the Saints haue with Iesus Christ , and amongst them , but it was altogether like vnto an excommunication . For at the beginning , when that the Christians The originall and beginning of the priuate Masses . did begin to communicate at the supper for the dead , that was no lesse permitted to the lay people , and vnto euery one of the christians , as to the ministers of the church , vntil such time as the supper hath taken the name of Masse , the which is not so auncient , as the Papists woulde affirme . The antiquitie of the name of Masse . Lusebius . Wilt thou deny that Sainct Iames the Apostle , hath not ordeined it and songe it , as the decretall witnesseth ?

Theophilus .

It is very nóedefull that a lyer haue a good memory , or otherwise he shall oft be taken in a trap . How shall they which are of diuers opinions among you accord The authors of the Masse . De cons●dist . 1. ca. lacobus . touching that point . For the one saith that Sainct Peter did sing the first Masse in Antioch . An other the contrary that Saint Iames did sing it in Hrerusalem . Others would refer it vnto Basil the great . If they did vnderstand and meane by the Masse the supper . I will not altogether gain s●y them . For I doubt not , but that those there haue truely celebrated the supper , following the example of Iesus Christ their master : But read all the bookes of the true seruants of God , which haue bene sithens Moses , vnto the time of Gregory the great ( who hath reigned almoste about seuen or eight hunoreth yeres after the death of Iesus The tyme of Gregory . Christ ) and afterwards tell mee if euer thou hast sound the name of Masse : except it be in some wicked & corrupted ●ooke , or that it is falsely mutulod with the name of good auncient Doctors : or if it be at some time founde , it is very seldome , and in an other signification and manner then it is now vsed . But the name is but a small thing , if wee doe accorde in the principall thing . Although it were so , that the name of the Masse shoulde be very auncient , and that it is oftentimes found in the bookes of the auncient Doctors , notwithstanding it followeth not therefore , that theyr Masse was lyke vnto yours at this present . For how much might one haue added vnto it , sithence the tyme of the Apostles , if it had bene in the Church , sith that ye do yet dayly adde vnto it , and ye neuer haue done .

Eusebius .

That same is done for the honestie and reuerence of the Sacrament and for his solempnitie , and moreouer to bewrifie it . And therefore thou deceauest thy selfe , in that thou thinkest , that there is contradiction amongst vs . For we do not vnderstande or meane that saint Iames , or Saint Peter , or any other to haue instituted the Masse , then Iesus Christe him selfe , the whiche afterwardes his disciples did beginne to ordeine and bewtyfie it , as wee haue at this present , and consequently the other vntil this present hore .

Theophilus .

Sainct Paul was the chiefest of the Apostles , and yet he came after Sainct Peter & Sainct Iames , but he did not teache or learne the Corinthians suche apish trickes , when hoe declared vnto them how they ought to celebrate the Lordes supper , but doth protest , that hee will adde nothinge vnto it nor diminishe anye thinge , but that hee will giue it them , in the same fourme as hée receyued it of his Master Iesus Christe . I doe not boeléeue that Sainct Iames nor Sainct Peter haue done otherwise , nor all their compaigmons . And you canne no better confounde your selfe , they in excusinge your selfe , as you doe . For at the leaste wife , by that you doe confesse , you doe witnesse , that you haue not the Masse , suche as yee haue , neither of Iesus Christe nor of his Apostles , nor of the primitiue Churche , but that it is of so many diuers poeces , that one can not know the colour of the first cloth .

Hillarius .

Thou canst no better compare it , then to a beggers cloake , to which euery one hath set to a péece , which is so be garded and patched , that there is not one péece séene in that forme and fashion as it was first made . But how can you tell who made it ? It is not yet made nor ended . For you doe adde vnto it dayly , and it shall not bée ended & perfected at the ende of the world , if other workmen then you doe not put to their handes . Yet neruertheles if thou haddest heard , Theophilus , a sermon that a Curate made vnto his Parishyoners , whiche is not very farre from this A sermon of a Cura . c. place , peraduenture thou wouldest speake otherwise .

Theophilus .

Hee must bring foorth better reasons , for to make mee to chaunge my speache , then anye coulde bring foorth yet .

Hillarius .

Thou mayst say , that there was neuer a more subtiller question alledged in Sorbonne : he exhorted his parishioners to offer and paye well their tithes . And the better to stirie them forward to doe the same , hee proponed vnto them , the example of Abell and Caine , saying : A bell hearing Masse . Take yee heede you doe not as that cursed Caine did , who would not pay his tithes , nor go to Masse : but fellow the good example of Abell , who payd his tythes willingly , and alwayes of the best and fayrest , and hee neuer sayled to heare Masse euery day . If it bee so , the Masse is more auncient then thou sayest that it is .

Theophilus .

Peraduenture it is with the priests as it was with the Aegiptians , The antiquitie of the Aegiptians Esa. 19. Plat. in Timo. Vad●●a epist. lust . li 2. who did glory somuch of their auntiquitie : and did affirme , that it was tenne thousand yeares , that they had bene in the worlde . And when they sayd it , it was not two thousand yeres , that the world was created .

Hillarius .

It must needes be then , that they were before the creation of the world , at the leasle fiue or six thousand yeres . Peraduenture they were created Arcadins : whome The antiquitie of the Arch●diās Ou●d . Fast . 1. the Poets doe write to haue bene horne before the Moone .

Eusebius .

That is not the first sable that thou hast forged , for to mocke and iest at the priests .

Hillarius .

I doe assure thee , without lying one word , that a Commissarie tolde it me , who sayd vppon his faith , that he himselfe hath hearde him , béeinge at the Masse , in which that Sermon was made at the Laudes tune in the midst of the same , when the Priest was come to the Offertorie , and that same is not chaunced farre hence . For that partie played his part héere harde by , in the holy popish grounde , in which they doe yet singe Masse . And notwythstandinge that that Commissary dwelleth in that holy grounde , yet neuerthelesse he was estonished of that Sermon , insomuch , that as he tolde mée , hee went vnto the Priest , and sayde vnto him : I cannot well vnderstande that example which you haue alledged of Abel and of Caine . For at that time , there were but foure persons in the worlde . Caine dyd neither sing , nor heard the Masse . Sith then that Abel heard it , hée could not singe and aunswere , or els they shoulde haue bene lyke vnto the Priest Martin . It must néedes hée then that Adam did singe it , and that Eue dyd holde Adam a Priest . the Torch , wherby it also should follow , that the Priests then were maryed .

Theophilus .

His conclusion was not euyll . But I assure thée , that if the Priests could proue that the Masse The antiquitie and institution of mariage . was as auncient as the mariage , and that God himselfe hath as well commaunded and ordayned it at the beginning of the world , and in the terrestriall Paradise , as Moses witnesseth that he hath done of mariage , bee assured , that they would make their potage fatte . And if they can in lyke manner shewe , that Iesus Christ woulde bée as well founde at a newe Masse , as at the mariages .

Hillarius .

They would giue much vpon that condition , and not without cause . For they dyd know very well that it woulde bee auaylable vnto them one time in the yeare .

Theophilus .

It is very true . But their principal & chiefest profit commeth vnto them , bicause of the dead . And therefore they would no longer permit & suffer , that it should be lawful & common vnto al , as wel lay people as clarks , to exercise the office , & to communicate y● one for the other , but it is giuen vnto than alone , as the most worthiest , iudgeing the other thereoff vnworthy . From thence are descended the priuate and perticuler masses , in which all they Priuate & perticuler Masses . alone do say that do communicate for the quick and the dead . It suffised them not , to take the office to communicate for the dead , which wer absent , but which is more , would also make it in the name of the liuing , which are present , as though they reiected them , and iudged them excommunicate and vnworthy to communicate at the death & passion of Iesus Christ . I demaunde of thée then Eusebius vppon this , where thou hast euer reade , that the Christians haue vsed a supper and sacrament vicare , I Sacraments vi●cars doe call the sacrament end the supper vicare , which thou takest for an other alter the imitation of Tertulian , calling vicare baptisme , the same of the Corinthians for the dead . Ter. aduer. Mars . li. 5 , & li. de resu . car. Canst thou alledge vnto me one onelye example taken from the true seruants of God . And that fashion to celebrate the supper perticulerly , is it not a ryght excommunication , Excommunication for communion . The institution of the supper . Mat. 26. c. 27 1. Cor. 11. c. 24. Marc. 14. c. ●2 Luc. 22. b. 17 and not a communion ? For hath our Lorde Iesus Christ instituted his supper onely for the Priests ? Would he not that bread , which he distributed vnto his Apostles , should be diuided and distributed vnto his Apostles , should be deuided and distributed among them ? And that all should drinke of that cup and of that wine , which representeth his bloud ? Wherefore hath hee commaunded that ; but for to giue vs to vnderstande , that as he gaue his body & his bloud for the health & saluation of all men , that he would in lyke manner , that al his elect should be pertakers , & that all should communicate wyth him , in the holy supper , & should be fed & refreshed with his flesh and his bloud , thorow the vertue of his holy spirite ? Euen as then Iesus Christ was not onely deliuered vnto death for the Priests , but for all the faithfull , both generally and perticulerly , so he would not that there should be but the Priestes which should be pertakers , but all those for whom and vnto whom , he gaue it . For asmuch then as he would not onely by the holy predication of the gospel , but also by the sacraments , & chiefly by the holy supper , féede & refresh vs with his flesh & his bloud , & to make vs féele the better the vertue & efficacie , & to confirme our faith & to comfort our consciences : thou canst not deny , but that the Priests do great wrong vnto the Christian people , to depriue them from such a ●ood thing : For asmuch also as they do not admit to their communion the people , they declare that they are of an other communion & relygion then of his , & that they accompt them not for Christians , but for Iewes , Turkes , & Infidels , whom we do reiect & excommunicate from the sacraments , & from our communion , bicause that they are enemies of our religion . Is not that an act altogether repugnant vnto the intention of Iesus Christ , who would that his supper should be common & generall to all his people ? and those héere do make it perticulerly , Furthermore , wherefore is it called a communion if it be not common vnto all the Christian people , as the name importeth and signifieth ? of which also is taken the name of excommunication , by the which we doe signifie the seperation Communion & excommunicatign . Mat. 18. c. 17. 1. Cor. 5. d. 11. 2. Cor. 13. a. 1. 1. Tim. 1. d. 19. and reiection of him , who thorow his euil deedes is driuen out from that holy communion , and cut off from the body of the Church , as a rotten member vnworthy to communicate with hir to Iesus Christ , who is the head , according to the ordinaunce that he hath made , and the practise of his Apostles .

Hillarius .

These are the most subtillest hostes , that euer The most subtillest hostes in the world . the earth did beare . For they do lay the table cloth , in their Inne , before the people , afterwards , they do drinke vp the wine all alone , in their presence , and do eate all without participatinge any parte to their compaignions , and doe licke their fingers the whiche they haue wet in the chalice , saying : Quia pius es , wyth such an appetite that they do cause I desire vnto women with child . Wherefore I am not abashed of the which the Turke said , after that he had seene The saying of the Turke touching the Popish Masse the Masse celebrated among the christians : that he did think that at the sacrifice of the Christians , ther was but little charitie , sith that there was one which did eate and drinke vppe all , wythout gyuinge parte vnto others whiche stoode by . But what woulde hée haue sayde , if hee had knowen that after that that good hoaste hadde laide his cloth and put his soppe in the wine , and banketted all alone , hée caused them to pay the shot that haue tasted nothing at all of it , but did onely beholde it a farre off , not daring to approch or come neere the table ?

Eusebius .

You take all in the worst part you can . Although that the Priest , which celebrateth the Masse , doth communicate all alone really and sacramentallye , it followeth not therefore , but that all the assistentes do perticipate To communicate sacramentally & spritually . by fayth and spiritually , as wel as the Priest which singeth the Masse . But that is done , for the dignitie and reuerence of the Sacrament . For if it were so common and frequented and vsed to all men , they woulde make none accompt of it . And although that the common people doe not communicate euery day wyth the Priest , yet neuerthelesse the lay people haue their dayes , for to communicate and celebrate the supper when they require it , and chiefly on the feastiuall and solempne dayes , in which they doe receiue the bodye of Iesus Christ sacramentally .

Theophilus .

If it doe profite as much him which doth not communicate really the Sacrament , as him which doth communicate so that he haue fayth , as well as the communicant , to what ende then serueth to goe to the supper ? And wherefore hath Iesus Christ sayd : deuyde this bread among you , and drincke yée all of this cuppe ? wee shall then néede no more if wee wyll not take the supper really : But that the father may send his sonne : the husbande hys wyfe : the master his seruaunt , which may communicate for them , and they wythout mouing or wagginge themselues , shall communicate spyrytuallye by fayth , so that the intention and deuotion bée such in them . I am not ignoraunt but that the true communication is spirituall and thorowe fayth , wythout which the outwarde bringeth more domage then lprosite . But doste thou thincke that Iesus Christ hath instituted the signe and the extericure Cermonye of he Sacrament wyll , out cause ? and that he● woulde not but that wee our selues shoulde communicate , excepte wée haue some lawfull let , which draweth vs backe , as sickenesse , imprisonment , faulte of minstringe it , or other like doubt , which procéedeth not of our fault , of infidelitie or dispisinge it ? Truelye I wyll not denie but that in such a case , those which cannot bée present at the suppen , should haue iust excuse , and that they doe communicate spiritually with Iesus Christ . But I demaund of thée . Eusebius , if thou wouldest bée content , that an other shoulde dine for thée● and if in fasting thou shalt be refreshed with the meate that an other shal haue eaten ?

Thomas .

As for my selfe I wil●not agrée vnto it . For that is no place in which he must haue a lieuetenant and vicare . I bad rather haue him in all other thinges then A vicare at the table . in the table .

Theophilus .

If you would not in coryorall thinges , wherefore will you accept it in spirituall thinges & can I The vicare of sayth . liue of your soule , or you o● mine ?

Thomas .

No.

Theophilus .

Nowe for asmuch as the fayth is the life of the soule , it must be that euery one doe lyue of his owne , and wée must not say I beléeue : as my maybe beléeueth . But it must bée that I my selfe doe beléeue , and that I Abac. 2. a. 4 Rom 1. b. 1● Gala. 3. b. 11 doe knowe and vnderstande that which I beleeue . Furthermore , sith that the woorde of God , the preachinge of the Gospell , the administration of the sacramentes are meanes by which God nourisheth , keepeth , augement●th , and confirmeth the fatith in vs , as the lyfe , the body , by the meanes of bread , and other meates , wée ought to vnderstande , that as there is no man that can take foode and nourishment for mée , if I my selfe doe not take it , so cannot hée heare the Gospell , nor receyue the Sacraments , for mee : But it is necessary that I doe them my selfe in proper person . If I wyll haue the profite , yea , thoughe I were an Emperour . Nowe if tho liuinge cannot doe it for the liuing , what can they doe for the dead ? In lyke The supper for the common people . manner , as touchinge the generall supper which is made amonge all the people , howe doe the Priestes handle yors ? It was not inoughe for them to haue vsurped the Sacrament for them alone , a great tyme , but that they must yet defrande you of the moytie , the same daies that The moytie of the supper taken away from the people you would communicate . For they doe not gyue you to drinke of that same wine the which they doe drinke , but haue establyshed and concluded , by theire counsells that it sufficeth the laye people to communicate vnder one kinde onely , that is to saye , of the bread : and that there should bée none but they , whiche shoulde communicate vnder both kindes of the bread and wine . And the same The Councel of Constance & of Basile . was determined in the counsell of Constance , holden in the yeare 1415. the xb , daye of Iune , in the 13. Sessions agaynst the authoritie not onelye of the worde of God , but of all the aucinet Doctors , and also of their decrées and Canons . Wherefore it is easely to iudge of what spirite those were lead that were ther assisting , and which haue made such determination , & haue iudged Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prague to bee burned , who vphelde the doctrine of the auncient Church . At the least they could not denye but that they were constrayned to condempne eyther that counsell , or the same of Basle , whiche afterwardes ordayned that it was permitted to the Bobemians to communciate vnder doth kindes : the which was obteined by great disputation , as the Chronicles doe witnesse and the Epistles written of that matter . But there is no doubte , but that the same of Basle is therein more agreeing to the auncient doctrine . It is meruayle that they doe forbid the cup vnto the laye people , and theire owne canons in some places do iudge those for sacriledgers & excommunicate , which do take it but in one kinde , & doe not take the cup , as it it is easely to see , de cosi dist. 2. in many Canone .

Thomas .

But there is great difference betwéene that that you drinke & ther is , For they thinke the theirs is no more wine , but that it is changed into the bloud of Iesus Christ , Transubstantiition . thorow the vertue of their consecration . But they do accompt and take yours , but for wine , bicause that it was consecrated .

Hillarius .

They giue it you but for to rinse & wash the téeth : if peraduenture there do stick any of the flesh which they haue giuen you to eate . For according to the witnesse which Humbert Cardinall , a Rorguignon hath rehearsed in the honorable recantation that he made The honourable recantation of Berengarius De con. dist. 2 Lgo Berengarius . for Berengarius , conteyning the fayth of Pope Nicholas , the which they haue caused him to rehearse and recite , wée must beleeue , that the body of Iesus Christ , is there taken with the mouth of the faythfull , and chewed & brused with the téeth . It is moste certeine , that their wine is no more bloud , then yours . But yer seeing the opinion that they haue , and that they doe estéeme it more precious , they doe you iniurye , to depriue you of it .

Theophilus .

I doe meruaile ? how they dare depriue the people from the cup , more then from the bread , sith that Iesus Christ hath sayd expresly , take yee , and drinke ye al. But ther is no doubt , that the priuate & perticuler Mat 26. c. 27. Marc. 14. c. 22. Luc. 22. b. 19 masses , haue ingendred this error . For euen as the Priests haue vsurpled the office to celebrate the supper for others , to make their dignitie to be of more value , so they would make theirs to differ from the same of others , & to take that both kinds for themselues , & leaue onely but one vnto the pleople , to the end they do estme , that the masse & supper , which the priest celebrateth , were more worthy & of more greater merite , then that other faithful , & that it bringeth vnto them more gaine . For after that the people were perswaded in the opinion , euery one did set them aworke , as workmen hired by daies for to sing , both for the quick & for the dead : whereof they receiued great gaine , of which we do yet at this day see the great riches & treasures of the Monks of the order of S. Bener , & of Cluny , who by that other monkish orders haue followed The Conuent of Monkes . which haue ben hatched , engibred & brought vp of that came hen . Now when they did perceiue that their gaine wared very great , they haue alwayes better magnified their ●oorke , and went v●to it wyth such a feruent yeale and affection , that there was a Priest which woulde singe three or foure Masses in one daye , so that they woulde giue him money : i● such sort that there was in no Fayre whatsoeuer it were & any merchaundise more frequented and vsed then this heers in their shoppe . Wherefore Multitude of Masses for hidde De con dist. 1. ca. sufficit . the Popes were constrayned to forbidde , that no Priest shoulde singe any more then one Masse in one daye , wythout dispensation , except in the sens● of Christmas : And they attributed that ordinaunce vnto Pope Alexander , who inuented the holy water ? It was in lyke manner decréede that none shoulde take vpon hym to celebrate , but that there shoulde bée at the least two What company ought to haue the Masse De con. dist. 1. ca. Hoc . quoque for to heare it . And they doe adde the reason , sayinge : If there bee not two at the least , howe can the Priest saye , Dominus vobiseum : The Lord bée with you ? O rate pro me fratres : Bretheren pray for me ?

Hillarius .

They must saye : Dominus tecum : as the Angell Gabriel did .

Theophilus .

Doe yée not beholde a goodly Philosophy ? Although that I doe thinke , that they haue also regarde , that the masse ought to keepe and holde some shew of the communion , the which could not haue any greate shewe or coulour , excepte there bée two or thrée at the least with the Priest . For that cause I thinke , that they haue in like manner taken the custome , to breake their heast in thrée péeces , bicause that it is written , that Iesus Christ did breake the bread , and gaue it vnto his Disciples . Then for to represent in their perticuler supper , that Mat. 16. c. 27 Marc 14. c. ●2 Luc. 22. b. 19 The breaking of the hoast . fraction & distribution of the bread : which cannot be done vnto one alone , they do yet kepe the fashion to break it after the example of Iesus Christ . But bicause that they alone do eate it vp all without distributing it vnto others , yet they would neuerthelesse counterfaite the example of Iesus Christ , giuing to vnderstand that they doe take the partes whiche they doe make , in steede of them , in whose name they are made , & for whose intent they sing them . And the Master of the sentences and also Gratian , doe De con. dist 2. ca. ●riform Sergius . 2. O● porci . Plat. make the author of that law and ordinaunce Sergius . 2. Who before that he was pope , was called : hoggs snowt . But bicause that that name séemed to him vile , hee caused it to bee chaunged into this same : sithens whiche , the custome continued among the Popes , that when they are chosen into that office , they doe chaunge all their names . All that The names of the Popes changed . was done about the yere of our Lord. 742. after the death of Charlemaine . The Doctors which came afterwardes doe tell the reason , wherefore that diuision of the hoast is deuided in thrée parts : And say , that that whiche is put and Bonauent. li. 4. dist. 12. Hilbert , in eleg de Eucha●istiu . cast into the Chalice , and made wette in Wine , is offred for the healthe and saluation of the liuing . The other two dry parts are for the dead , the one for the prayse of those which are now in Paradise . The other for those whiche are in the paines of Purgatory , for to deliuer them . Although that , there are others whiche doe attribute the wetting in the Wine , vnto the blessed , whiche are now in Paradise . But I am now abashed of those whiche haue founde out that manner to wette and moysten the bread with the wine , that they haue no regarde to their Canons which do rebuke & condempne very sharpely some whiche had that euil custome to wette the bread with the wine , and chiefely some Aegiptian Churchés . But they haue made it no conseyence to doe that whiche their auncestors haue forbidden and condempned to others . For all thinge is permitted vnto them . Although that the Priest doeth make the supper all alone for all the Saynts & Sayntes in Paradise , and for all the quicke and the de●d . And for that cause was put into the supper , the Memento of the The memento of the quicke & of the dead dead , in the Canon of the Masse , with that of the lyuing , the which yet neuerthelesse one cannot finde in the auncient Missels of the Romish Masse , written by hand : Wherfore it is moste li●●st , that it hath bene at ded soo af●rwardes , by those whiche haue applyed the merit of the Masse vnto th● dead . But they haue done yet worse , for where the supper ought to bee a Comaieinoration of the ●cath and passion of Iesus Christ , and a sacrifice of praise , ●or to receyue Iesus Christ , not for to offer him vp , ther The s●pper a 〈◊〉 of re●●●tion . haue made a sacrifice of reconciliation , for to offer vp Iesus Christ vnto God his father , for the redemption and saluation of the soules , aswell of the deade as of the lyuing , which counteruayleth asmuch in resolution as so deny altogether the Sacrifice of the death and passion of Iesus Christ . For asmuch then as the supper , which ought to be common vnto all the faithfull , was conuerted & chaunged into perticuler Masses , & that so manye false opinion haue bene adioyned vnto it , the better to elcuate his authoritie and dignitie and the Priests which sing it , the vse of the true supper of Iesus Christe hath bene almost altogether abolished , and is so greatly dispised , that almost none maketh any accompt of it . For euen as the Priestes The dispising & contemning of the supper . did runne after their Masses , bicause of the gaine , the people on the otherside , did follow them bicause of the opinion that they had of their dignitie . And did make no great accompt of the commen supper , but they referred themselues altogether vnto the Masses of the priests , insomuch that there were but a few , to whom they did esteeme to communicate : But did giue the charge vnto the Priests King Lewes . to do that for them . Wherefore King Lewes the sonne of Charles , seeing the people to communicate so rare & seldome in comparison to the auncient Church , was compelled to make Lawes and Statutes , that the laye people , should at the least , communicate at the supper three times Statutes for the communion . in the yere : The which law Ansegisus hath put in wryting , and it was done in the yeare of our Lord ●yght hundroth Ausegisus . li. 2. Ca 38 Fabtan . De con. dist. 2. & h● . Concilium Aga th●se & ●lib●●t . De cen. dist. 2. 〈…〉 . and fifteene . The which neuerthelesse hath not bene yet obserued , bicause of the great estimacion that they had of the perticuler masses . For notwithstanding that Pope Fabian and the Councell Agathian and Ehbertin , had decreed that the lay people which receiu●d not the Euchatiste ? at the least , at Easter , Whitsoutide & Christmes shoulde not be compted for catholickes , yet neuerthelesse the supper is so greatly dispised that the lay p●ople muste be compelled and constrayned by commaundings from the Emperour , Concil. Latera at the Councell of Lateran , to communicate at the least once in the yere at Easter , for to keepe the olde custome of the auncient Churche , which then was very much corrupted , as one may in like manner iudge by the generall Councell of Pope Innocentius , and by the Canon of The councell of Pope Innocent . Clement the third , whiche was made about a thousande two hundreth yeres after the natiuitie of Iesus Christ : De pen. & remiss . omnis v● 〈◊〉 Albert. li. de missae myst . Although that Albert alledgeth other reasons , but those haue bene the causes . Behold how the Christians haue bene led , and into what pit and depthe the Commemoration of the quicke and of the dead in the supper , hath drawen them . There remained none but the Greekes , which The conslareie of the Greekes . haue kept it well , and which haue kept néerest and moste constantly by the auncient custome of the Apostles . For yet at this day they doe not allow the perticuler Masse , and they take not the Euchariste but with company , & that the minister doth distribute it to the people . And this is very cléere and plaine vnto the Churches , which they haue a great nomber of them , vnder the seigniory of the Venitians . Also they coulde not suffer that one shoulde depriue them of the Cuppe or Chalice , the whiche is one of the partes of the Sacrament , but doe kéepe still that communion , as it was vnder both kindes , from the time of the Apostles themselues in the Latin Churches , in Africa and Europa , untill the time of Fredericke the first . Euen so haue they done in the article of Purgatory , Purgatory retested of the Greekes the whiche they woulde neuer agrée vnto , although that it was receiued and allowed by the church of Rome .

Eusebius .

But although they haue resisted it of long time , were they not in the ende constrayned to allow and acknowledge it , and to ab●ure their error and heresie , at the councell of Florence , consenting with the Romish The Counsell of Florence . Churche ?

Theophilus .

Thou hast sayd very well , constrayned . For that Romish tyraunt neuer ceaseth vntyll hee hath seduced and brought subiecte vnto him all other Churches , either thorow crafte and subtiltye , or els by force & violence . Yet neuerthelesse , before that the Greekes consented vnto him , how long time haue they resisted ? And afterwards , what are those that haue consented and after what sort ? whether that the Purgatory such as they haue preached vnto us vntill this present time , was founded and binlved vpon the holy scriptures , and worthy to bee holden and taken for an article of the faith , as they haue constrayned vs , it followeth that all the Greekes and all their Churches should haue bene heretickes vntill the yeare of our Lorde a thousand foure hundreth thirty and nine , that the Councel was holden . But how and by whom was it celebrated ? were there not then Scisines & Antipopes in the Church ? For some of them did draw & gather Scismes & Antipopes . Plat. in vita . Eng. li. concil . The Counsell of Busle . Pope Martin . Sigismond Emperour . themselues towards Almaigne and assembled themselues at Basle at the Councel begun by Pope Martin , the predecessor to Eugenius , at which was the Emperour Sigismond with the Princes of Spaine , Almaigne , Pannonia and Fraunce . Others assembled and gathered themselues together and went to the Councell of Ferrara , which afterwards was transported to Florence , bicause of the plague The Counsell of Ferrora . Plague . Pope Engenius which was so cruell and terrible at Ferrara , that all were very much afrayd , chiefely the Greekes , which trembled with feare . Wherfore Pope Engenius , who ruled at that Councell was constrained to transport and remoue it to an other place , and to ende it at Florence . Yet neuertheles , forasmuch as the Greekes were so long time holden and kept in the doctrine of the auncient Church , they shoulde not haue lost much , to haue perseuered and continued stil in it . And if they had well marked their case , God gaue them warning ynough and aduertisements that hee tooke no great pleasure in that that they did take in hand , sith that hée assayled them with that great horrible plague . On the otherside , they might well iudge how well they coulde agree with the komish Churche , the whiche was deuided within it selfe , and at discorde in the house . For Pope Eugenius held his Councel at Ferrara & at Florence , and would not be assistant to that at Basle , in whiche the Emperour was present . On the contrary , those which were assembled at the Councel of Basle , would not acknowledge Eugenius for to be Pope , but did choose an other , to witte , Ayme Duke of Sauoy , who as then led an Hermits life A yme Duke of Sanoy . Ripailles at Ripailles , but after an other sorte then the auncient Hermits in times past . For his Hermitage was a goodly and pleasaunt Castle , in a moste pleasaunt place , harde by Thonon , as it appeareth yet at this day . After his election Pope Felix . be was called Felix , were not all these things proper and fit for to giue a faire shew vnto those Councels ? And Purgotory receyned by the Greekes . that same of Florence in which the conclusion and agreement of Purgatorye , was made with the Greekes , ought it not greatly to bee esteemed , for to haue an Eugenius for their President which hath moued all Italy and al Christendome to war ? And how shall the Greekes that were sent be acquited and discharged of their office ?

Hillarius .

They haue betrayed both their countreis & their Churches , as they haue well declared by the dignities and offices which they haue receiued of the Pope .

Theophilus .

Therefore hath hée so well recompensed them . For he hath made Rutenus and Nicenus Cardmals Rutenus . Nicenus which were the chiefe : with Bessarion who was also a Cardinall and Patriarke of Constantinoble . If they had faithfully defended the trueth , the Pope woulde not haue Beisation chosen them vnto such honors .

Hillarius .

Hee might as wel make them Cardinals in such Rossensis sorte , as Rossensis was in England : or after the sort as the Tyrants haue giuen the red hatte vnto the Martirs .

Theophilus .

Although that he hath done that , the better to keepe by that meanes the Greekes subiect and bounce vnto him and to his dectrine , yet neuertheles he hath not yet so well practised it nor bounde them , but that they were by and by reuolted and truned vnto their first manners , and that they had abandoned & forsaken the Popish faith , the whiche before they were ignorant off .

Hillarius .

Yet they should not haue lost muche , if they had neuer learned any thing at all . But I am not muche abashed though Bessarion hath easelye consented vnto the papisticall Purgatory . For hee was a great Platonist , and I beeleeue that hee was more exercised in the Philosophy of Plato , then in the true Theology of heauenvly letter . Where●ore it is no meruaile , if hee haue easely allowed Purgatory , the which he hath already learned of his master Plato .

Theophilus .

Thou mayst now vnderstand Eusebius how the Churche is fallen from degree to degree , sithens the time of the Apostles , vntil the same of l●ertulian , afterwards of Cyprian , afterwards of Augustin and from him vnto Gregory , and consequently vnto our time : and how the superstition is so increased and augmented , that by the meanes of the Purgatory and of the Masse the merite of the death and passion of Iesus Christ was altogether abolished . You must not then compare the time present & the estate of your Churches , vnto the same of S. Augustin . For there is to much difference betweene them . It is ●● euill lykelyhood , that the thing in those dayes was somuch aduaunced . And doubt not , that if the holy man had thought , that it would haue fallen out so , but that he would haue resisted it more strongly then wee doe at this day . For hee could not haue suffred , that the grace of Iesus Christ , of which he was so greate a defender against the Pelagians , should haue bene so altogether destroyed . But the good man was ouercome , bicause that then , the puritie of the doctrine of the gospel & the estate of the church was already very much decayed & corrupted , as we may easely iudge , by that whiche Sainct Hierome witnesseth of the life of Malchus . For he was not ashamed to write that the time The Witnesse Which Saint H●ereme ytueth cllus time . and age in which hee liued , and Sainct Augustin in lyhe manner , who was of the same time , was but filthynesse & stinking in comparison of the same of the Apostles . Thou hast alreadie heard the plaint the Sainct Augustin made of mans traditions , with which the Church was ouercharged . 〈◊〉 lanua 1. 9. Amongst which he touched the Iewishnes and superstion whiche was yet kept in Africa . We must not then be abashed , if in those dayes , there came vp new opinions , touching the estate of the dead , the whiche the auncient Churche was ignorant off . Wee must not in like manner meruaile although some greate learned men haue bene wrapt in them . For it happeneth commonlye , that when men haue dreamed and inuented some new opinion , they will also induce others , and are angry against those that doe resist them , insomuch that they will condempne them , and if they bee the moste wisest and of greatest countenaunce , they cary away the matter . After that sorte was Aerius condempned , chifely bicause he saide , that it was Aertus . not néedeful to pray nor to offer for the dead . It happened to him as it did to Vigilantius , Against whome Sainct Hierom against Vigtlantius . Hierome hath writen so outragiously , bicause that hee allowed not , but rebuked the watchings whiche they made about the Sepulcres of the Martyrs , bicause that he knew already the superstition which would follow . S. Hierome was a great learned man , but yet neuerthelesse a childe might iudge that hée did great wrong vnto Vigilantius , and that hée shewed himselfe to bee too much a man , and more superstitious then hee ought to bée For at this present , the time declared vnto vs , that the reason of Vigilantius was a great deale better then that of Hierome : & the abuses and Idolatries whiche haue followed that custome that Hierome hath mainteined , doe mamsestlye declare , that then Antechriste aduaunced the secret of iniquitye , to whome Hierome obeyed , without takinge anye heede . Nowe lette vs thinke , that sorasmuche as suche a manue as hée was , dyd defende so sharpelye mans tradytions and childithe supershtious , what authorytye canne the little ones haue , whiche doe put themselues againste it or withstande The opinion that Styne August in had of Pingarory . it ? and what shall the pore people doe ? Then when Sainct Augustin did beginne to write , hee did then finde owers opinions of the suff●nges and prayers for the dead , among those of the Church or the Doctors of the Church , and the question of Purgatory stirred vp and moued , the which hee also hath sifted and fanned . He then perceiuing the opinions and reasons of others , which were not without appearance of wisedome and holines ( whiche are the titles which the Apostle attributeh vnto mans trabitions ) Collo. 2. 3. 3. was somwhat troubled and moued , and burst not altogether condempne them . That was the cause wherefore he spake of that matter after diuers sortes & doubtfully , and that he seemeth some time to speake against himselfe . When hee had no regarde but to the pure worde of God , hee hath well spoken , as I will make it by and by appeare . But when hee had regard vnto the opinions and reasons of others and grounded himself vpon mans Phylosophy , more then vppon the certeine worde of God , hee founde himselfe sometime in great perplerity and doubt , and hath followed sometime more his humaine reason , then the verity of God reuealed vnto him . For when all shall be well considered , where in differeth that difference that hee putteth betweene the estates of the dead from the Li. des●●● & oper. ca. 16. Addul●● . q. 1 in Enchir. ca 68. 69 De ciui . deili . 21. ca. 26. doctrine of Plato ? Furthermore , do wee not see , that when he speaketh of the fire of Purgatory , for the other life , that he speaketh alwayes as bucerteine , and as of an opinion probable and like to bee true , the which he dareth not certeinly allow nor disalow : But saith that one may dispute of that question and alwayes leaue it in suspense . Nowe who would thinke it like be true , that that holy man , beeing a great keper & an obseruer of the ecclesiastical & catholicke doctrine , would haue so spoken and written of that matter , if in his time that doctrine of Purgatorye , had bene receiued and allowed of the Churche for certeine and sure , in that sorte that those whiche at this Tho. in 4. dist. 21. Autho. 1. Par. 〈…〉 . 10. Cap 2. present doe receiue so great gaine woulde condcmpne as Her●tickes not onely those that doe say the contrary , but also all those whiche beleeue it not to be an article of faith necessary vnto saluation . How could hee call into doubt an article of faith authorised and confirmed by the Churche ? nowe wee cannot denye , but that the doctrine of our faith is alwayes one , eternall , and like vnto it selfe , and The doctrine of the Apostles perfect . that the Apostles haue so taught and instructed the Churches , that they haue not hyd from them any thinge necessary vnto their saluation , which ought not afterwardes to bee reuealed , and chiefely that which toucheth the offices of loue and charitie , without which we are nothing towardes God . There is yet an other point , that is , that Ra● . diui. off . li. 7. 3. q. 7. in grauib . 24. q. 1. od● . 1. de ponderet extra de renun Nisi . 5. 1. he himselfe is not of the opinion , that the prayers and ofteringes of the wicked , may bee agreeable to God . To the which opinion the papisticall Doctors dare verye well speake agaynst , and affirme that it ought not to be holden , but that it is too harde and rigorous ( notwithstanding the hee alloweth it by the holy Scriptures ) bicause that it depriueth the deade from mercye and from so manye goodly prayers and suffrages , and woulde cause the charytie of those that bee aliue to ware colde towardes them .

Hillarius .

I am not abashed . For they shoulde lose much , if none shoulde offer vnto them but good men ? It is vnto them , to whome the sentence is to hard , not vnto the dead .

Theophilus .

If they bee so bolde to reproue the sentence of the auncient Doctors , when it is not fit for their purpose , although that it bee confirmable vnto the Scripture , wherefore may not wee reiect it , when it shall be contrary vnto it ? As touchinge that which thou hast in lyke manner declared , of his mother Monica , requyring Monica . that they should make remembraunce of hir , in the celebration of the Sacrament , it maketh no greate matter . That was the affection of a woman , as that which shee had to bee buryed hard by hir husbande . For there is no doubt , that the affe●●ion that wee haue towardes Li. confess . 9 c● . 11. the dead , maketh that wee also desire , that others should haue the lyke affection towardes vs . ●nd wee must not bee ●bashed , if such humame affections , doe reigne sometimes in vs . For wee our selues doe see , that those holy The affection of the women that followed Iesus woemen , which followed Iesus Christe , from Galile , vntill he was buryed , willinge to anointe him in his sepulchre , dyd not thinke of his resurrection , but did thinke to haue founde him dead : as the Angells rebuked them , Luc. 24. a. 5. Mat. 18. 2. 1. Marc. 16. b. 6. Iolus . 10. ● 11. saying : why seeke yee the liuinge amonge the dead ?

There is no doubte , but that there was yet in them humayne affection towardes the bodye of Iesus Christe , as wee haue towardes the dead : But to the ende that wee maye haue no more neede to dispute muche of it , wylt thou bee contented if I doe alledge vnto thee Augustine , agaynste Augustine ? To whome haddest thou rather staye , eyther vppon Saincte Augustine , followinge the opinion of men wythout the Scripture , and speakinge doubtfullye as vncerteyne , or vnto hym and other auncient Doctours , wyth the holy Scripture .

Eusebius .

I doe not thincke , that Sainct Augustine would speake against himselfe , nor the he hath bene contrary vnto the holy Scripture , nor to the auncient Doctors .

Theophilus .

Thou canst not shewe vnto mee that hee hath affirmed the Purgatorye certeynlye : But I will declare vnto thee places by the whiche hee hath altogether abolyshed it . Marke howe hee hath put none other Purgatorye , then the bloude of Iesus Christe , hee The witnes of Saint Augusture against purgatory of the Pope . De ciui . det . li. 10 ● . 1. 24. The true Pargatory . De c●● . Dei. li 10. ca. 22. sayth , speakinge of Porphyras a Platonist , that hee hath not knowen Iesus Christe to bee the begynninge , thorowe whose incarnation wee are purged . For hee shoulde haue then acknowledged a Purgatorye . And in an other place , hee sayth : Wee haue then the bictorye , in his name which hath taken mannes fleshe , and hath liued without sinne , to the ende that by hym beei●ge the Priest and the sacrifice , we are made the remyssion of sinnes . That is to saye , thorowe the medyatour of God and men , the man Iesus Christe , who in hys owne person hath purged our sinnes , and restored be agayne vnto God . For men are not seperated from God , 1. Timo. 2. ● . 5. lieb . 1. 2. 3. but thorowe sinne , for which it lyeth not in vs thorowe our owne power and strength to purge them in this lyfe , but therow the mercy God , thorow his clemeney , not thorowe our power . For that vertue whiche is called ours , whatsoeuer it bee , it is graunted vnto vs thorowe his goodnesse . Doth hee not cleerelye shewe , that the purgation of sinnes is done in this lyfe , and yet not thorowe our owne righteousnesse nor vertue ? Holve can it then bee done in the other lyfe , thorowe the vertue and merytes of an other & Furthermore , hee manyfestly sayth : the soules of the good men after they are De eiui . Dei. li. 13. ca. 9 seperated from the body , are at rest , and wee muste not doubt of it : but those of the wicked , are punished vntyll such time , as the bodyes of those doe ryse againe to eternall lyfe : and of these heere , to eternall death , whiche is called the seconde death . But is it possible to speake more cleerelye and purely of Iesus Christe and of the Purgatorye that wee haue in him , then when hee sayth : De trinita . li. 4 ca. 13. Thorowe his death , that is to saye , by one onelye and true sacrifice , which hath bene offered for vs , hee hath purged , abolythed and put out all that that had anye saultes in vs . Wherefore the hygher power and those of authoritie doe bolde and keepe vs for to bee punyshed : And by his resurrection hath called vnto a newe lyfe wee which were predestyned : hee hath iustified those that hee called , and glorified the iustified . Beholde woords very cleere . And speaking of the opinion of Plato , he sayth : Those which are of that opinion , doe thincke that after De ciuis . Dei. li 21. ca. 13 that one is deud , there is no other paines , then of Purgatorye , for to purge sinnes : Alyttlo after hee sayth : Wee confesse that in this mortall life , there is a certeyne Purgatory paine . It seemeth that hee somewhat agreeth that the tribulations and aduersities that man suffereth Purgatory in this worlde . in this world , do serue him for a purgation of his sinnes : the which yet neuerthelesse , they dare not to attribute but to Iesus Christ . Although that we doe commonly say , of him which hath had much euil & griefe in this world , the he hath had heere his Purgatory . For that tasteth muche of the opinion of Plato . But Sainct Augustin doth not make ther mention , of any paine● of purgatoy , after this life , but he sayth playnely that the soules of the faythfull , do Enchi . ● . 67. rest after the deathe of the bodye . But what wilt thou more cléerer , then when hée sayeth : Some doe beleeue that those also whiche haue not abandoned the name of Christ , and which haue bene baptized in hys Church , and haue not belie cutte off from the same , thorow anye schisme or heresie , that in whatsoeuer sinnes they haue lyued in , the which they shall not deface and put away thorowe penaunce , nor redeemed thorow doing of almes beedes , but shall perseuer and continue in them continually , vntill the last daye of their lyfe , shall be saued thorow the fire : Although that according to the greatnesse of theire sinnes and misdéedes , that fire shall bée The fire dinturnall & eternall . diuturnall but not eternall . But mée thincketh that those that doe beléeue this , and yet neuerthelesse are catholikes , are deceyued thorowe mans beneuolence . For Contra Pelag Hypogu . li. 5 the holy Scripture , if one doe looke and search in it , aunswereth an other thing . Thou seest héere Eusebius , that be speaketh of the fire of Purgatory , whatsoeuer thinge he hath spoken at other time . And sayth moreouer , that there is but two wayes , to wit , one of dampnation and Two wayes onely an other of saluation . But marke well his owne words : The fayth of the catholikes , thorowe the diuine authoritie , doth first beleeue that there is a kingdome of heauen . Secondly , that there is a hell , in the which euerye apostate and straunger to the fayth of Christe is punyshed . Wee are altogether ignoraunt of the thirde . But wée doe not finde in the holy Scriptures , that there is any . It seemeth to mee , that hée speaketh very cléerely , and that those authorities ought to suffice . thee , against all that that thou canst alledge of the auncient Doctors , in the fauour of Purgatory . Yet neuerthelesse the better Other witnesses of the most . auncion doctors agaynst Purgatory Ter aduer. Marl. li. 4. The sieldes Eh●eus . to vanquish and pull thée down . I wil yet shew foorth vnto thee some sentences of the most auncient Doctoures . Marke what Tertulian sayth . It seemeth vnto euery one that is wise , which haue heard somtime spoken of the fields Ehseus , that it hath some locall determination which hath bene called Abrahams bosome , for to receyue the soules Abrahams bosome . of his children , and that the same region or countrey is not celestiall , but it is yet neuer the lesse more higher then hell , in which the soules of the righteous doe rest , vntyll such time as the consumation of the thinges , restoreth the resurrection of all men , thorowe perfect rewarde . I doe not prayse that which Tertulian hath determyned of the place , wythout witnesse of the Scripture , but I To affirme vncerteyne things thincke it a very daungerous thinge to define of suche thinges wythout wytnesse of the same , and I had rather staio my selfe vpon the sentence of sainct Augustine , which sayth , that it shoulde bee very good , that an vncerteyne thing of which not onely the Scriptures doe make no mention of it , but doe speake the contrary , that one should affirme nothing : And alledgeth the sentence of Seneca , sayinge : Thou oughtest to affirme nothing of vncerteyne thinges , but keepe thy iudgement inoerteyne . Also Tertulian propounded not the same , but as an aduise , not as a biffinitiue sentence , and an article of faith . Yet neuerthelesse , although that hee sayd it , that sentence serueth me , for to shewe vnto thee that it was no question , in Tertulians tyme , of Purgatorye , after the manner as you haue taken it . For hee putteth but one place indifferently for all the elect , and children of Abraham , which haue bene and shall bee vntill the latter resurrection . It well appeareth , that hee was of opinion , that they were not yet in the celestiall habitations and chiefest felicitie , but yet neuerthelesse he assigneth vnto them Abrahams bosome , in which all the soules of the faythfull do rest generally , without putting any difference betweene those of the auncient fathers , and ours , nor making mention of paine nor any Purgatory . In like manner Ireneus , who was next the tyme of the Apostles , is not of an opinion very much contrary and differing . For Irene . aduer. ha res . Valentma . notwythstanding : that he assigned vnto the soules of all the Disciples of Iesus Christ , and the true faythfull , an inuysible place , whiche is appointed and determyned for them of God , in which they shall continue and abyde vntyll the resurrection , the which they do looke for : Yet neuerthelesse hée assigned but one place for all the Christians , the which hee called Disciples of Iesus Christe : And bée sayth not , that some shall be in paine and other some at rest , but hée putteth them there vppon a condition , and hée assigneth vnto all no other paine , but the taryinge and looking for the resurrection : saying , that the Disciple is not aboue the Master , and that as Iesus Christ is not by and by rysen after his death , but taryed the time that was appointed him of God his Father , so must hys Disciples tarye for theirs , as hée hath ordeyned them . It is very true , that in the booke which Recogn . li. 1. is attributed vnto Sainct Clement , it seemeth that hee woulde putte a certeyne kinde of Purgatorye , but althoughe the booke were of great authoritie , yet neuerthelesse it woulde serue for nothinge for the Priestes Purgatorye . For althoughe that hee putteth a certeyne difference betweene the most perfectest seruaunts of God , and the others whiche haue not nor could not entyrelye accomplishe the rule of ryghteousnesse , but haue yet some mallice remayning in theire fleshe , yet hee assigned no paine vnto those : Although that hee thinketh that the others are in more greater glory , but saith , that their soules are kept in goodly pleasaunt and ioyfull regyons and countreys , that in the resurrection of the dead , when they shall haue receyued theire bodyes , and that theyre resolution shall bee purged , they maye come vnto eternall lyfe . Beholde his owne woordes , the which he recited , as spoken of Sainct Peter ; vnto Saint Clement . But there is no appearaunce , that Saincte Peter hath holden those woordes whiche were attributed to him in that booke , nor that Sainct Clement hath The booke of Clement . wrytten them , althoughe that the booke is intituled in his name . For howe manye propositions be there altogether contrarye vnto the doctrine of Saincte Peter and of all the Apostles ? But put the case , that the booke were verye auucient , and of the Authour to whome they attribute it , if it be not canonised , nor of the Apostolicall authoritie : and whiche is more , he putteth no Purgatorye , in whiche there is pame and torment : And when thou wouldest conclude by those woordes , that there should be some manner of Purgatorye , I wyll vanquishe and ouercome thee by hymselfe , eyther that there is none , or else that it is for Purgatory is either far all , or els ther is none . all men : And that there is no man so holye , but that he must be purged in the same . For there was neuer any so iuste and righteous : which hath fulfilled and perfected the rule of righteousnesse : which hath bene without sinne : & which hath not prayed with all the Saints , accordinge to the witnesse of Dauid ; for his unquitye , Psa 32. and sayth : pardon our sinnes : and in whome one could not finde inoughe for to purge , yea , after this lyfe , excepte he had anye other purgation , then that whiche is made by the bloude of Iesus Christe . But although The diuersltie of opinions touching the suffrages for the dead . there were none other reasons , for to proue that the suffrages for the deade , and the Purgatorye , are found out and deuised by mans inuentions , then the diuersitie of opinions of those whiche haue written and spoken of it , yet the argument is verye stronge . for they doe propounde the doctrine so vncerteyne , that one cannot make any resolution , and a greate deale lesse , then of the opinions of the Philosophers : but doe leaue alwayes the conscience uncerteyne , agaynst the nature of the woorde of God , whiche alwayes is certeine and cléere .

Hillarius .

Me thincketh that I doe sée them holde so theire pro & contra , that they would make of the Theology , Theologia Ac. ● dem●a . an Academia , in which one may dispute probably , on both sides , without giuing any certeine resolution , but leaue all thinges in doubt . For what foundation hath all that which they doe affirme and saye , but vppon fables and mans opinions ? The which wee may as surely deny , as they to affirme them : yea , by more iuste reason . For wee haue more Scripture for to tell them the contrary , then they haue of apparaunt reasons , for to proue that which they affirme : for they are Doctors , of which the Apostle speaketh off , which doe not vnderstande that which they speake , nor which they teach and affirme .

Theophilus .

If they were so modest and reasonable 1. Timo. 1. b. 7. as the Philosophers Academians , they should not bee so much to bee despysed and blamed . There is no doubt , but that it is required , that wee bee assured in the doctrine of The certeyntie in the doctrine of the faith required . the fayth and religion . For there can bee no fayth , where there is but opinions , wythout certeyne perswasion .

Wherefore the Theologians haue not so lawful and iust excuse , as the Achademians . For when the question is but of humaine and naturall thinges , it is not so greate a daunger to follow the opinions of men , and to abide in doubt : But when it is a question of fayth and religion , it must bee that the conscience bee assured : the whiche it cannot bee , but by the certeyne worde of God . Now wee doe cleerely see , that in such matters they goe not but by The disputacions of the babblers of diuinitie . coniectures and presumptions , and euerye one of them sayth and speaketh that which commeth in his fantasie : But if they doe that but amongest themselues , by manner of disputation , as the Academians dyd , and after the manner as sainct Augustine did put foorth the question of purgatorye , without affirming it , as an article of sayth , wée would let them dispute as longe as they will . But behold that which is worse , they woulde , that theire opinions should bée receyued and allowed , as oracles and reuelations descended from heauen : and they pronounce and giue their sentence , with more greater authoritie , then if they dyd speake of the pure woord of God : and do compell the Christian people to beleeue & confesse , as an artycle Temerine to affirme . Tho. m. 4. dist 21. of saith , that which they haue dreamed and inuented , iudgeing and condemning for hereticks , all those which do speak against it : in such sort that it is more daungerous to speake against , & withstand their decrées & decretals , then the commaundement of God . For our Lord Iesus Christ sayth , that all sinne committed by men may be pardened , 〈…〉 Sinne 〈◊〉 holy Ghost except the sinne and blasphemy against the holy ghost . But it is written in the decroes and Canons : woe do commaund , that all decretall constitutions of all the Popes should bee Dist. 19. ca. 51. Romanorum . kept in such sort , that if any doe commit any thinge contrary vnto them , that he doe know that pardon is denied vnto him , and that he shall not haue it .

Hillarius .

I do then conclude by that Canon , that sinne To sinne against the Pope . against the Pope , is sinne against the holy ghost , bicause there is no pardon . We must not iest with them . I will compare them to the Academians , but I had a great deale rather that they were like vnto them , then suche as they are .

Theophilus .

It should be a greate deale better to define nothing rashly , of that whereoff they cannot be certeyne : The cou●cell of Saint Augustin . in Genes. 11. 10 and to followe the Counsell of Sainct Augustin , speaking of the riche man of whom mention is made in S. Luke : It is better to doubt of secret things , then to pleade of vncerteine things . I doubt not , but that we must vnder stand that the riche man is in moste extroeme hot paines and torments : and that poore Lazarus in ioy and comfort . But in what sort one ought to vnderstand that flame and fire of hell : that bosome of Abraham : that tongue of the ryche man : that finger of poore Lazarus : that thirst of torment : that droppe of refressing , with much a doe we can finde of those which doe séeke it with meekenes and modesty : but of those which do debate of it with contention and strife , many .

Hillariu .

If Sainct Auguslin , had alwayes followed , that whiche he teached here , his doctrine would haue bene more pure , and would haue spoken yet more soberly then he hath done of the suffrages for the dead : sith that he had no sure nor certeine witnes in the worde of God .

Theophilus .

Iesus Christ hath not fore spoken without Mat. 24. b 24. The elect in dańger to b. seduced . cause , that if it were possible , the very elect shoulde bee seduced and deceiued by the false Prophets & false Christs . Wherefore wee ought not to meruaile although Sainct August●n , and such as he was , haue sometime bene ouercome . But for vs we ought rather to be more confirmed in the doctrine of the Gospell , seeing it fulfilled before ou● eyes , & we ought well to learne by the example of others , to walke in the feare of God , without straying or wandring any thing after our opinions and fantasies . For if already from the time of the Apesties , Antechrist did bée●in his raigne and worke his secret of iniquitie , we muste 〈◊〉 doubt , but that he was muche aduanced in the time of Sainct Augustin . And the Apostle calleth not without cause , his worke and busines the mistery of iniquity . For The reigne of 〈…〉 and he working of 〈…〉 ●●● . 59. a. 5. he hath proceeded and gone forwarde so secretly , craftely and subtilly , that the most holyest and best learned , haue bene ouercome . vse hath of a long time hatched his Cockatrice , and Basilikes eggs , before hee could bee perceiued , and hath practised his matters so subtilly vnder the earth , that scant one could know , to what ende he tendeth , vntill such time as he hath ended and finished his worke , and that Iesus Christ , by his Gospel , hath opened and reuealed it to his electe : as wée doe sée by experience , at this 2. Thess. 2. b. 5 present time : And as I trust , shal doe yet more hereafter . Wherefore we knowing into what inconueniences our fathers are fallen into , yea the wisest and moste perfect in attributing to much to the authoritie of men and to their opinions and traditions . Let vs take heede , to affirme and Rash determinations & ●●●●nations . propound vnto the christians , as an article of faith , and doctrine necessary to saluation , any thing , of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes by the holy scripture , & of which by them wee are not cleerely resolued . For that commeth thorow to greate temeritie and presumption , the which God will not leaue vnpunished . But whiche is more , although the thing shoulde be very true , and so as it hath bene preached vnto vs , yet neuerthelesse , sith that the worde of God doth not make anye expresse mention of it nor doth cléerely shew forth , of whiche wee can drawe anye certeine consequence , and of whiche wée haue no commaundement of GOD , wee maye safelye bée ignoraunt of it , without daunger of our saluation . For sith that the Scripture is giuen vnto vs for our instruction , what thing we may safely he ignorant off , and what not . not for vs to inquire of the estate of the dead , but for to learne vs the way for to come vnto the place of that holy eternall rest , and true felicity , wée ought to content our selues , to know that whiche is commaunded vs and whiche to the same is necessary for vs , and wee may not bee ignoraunt of them , without dammage and hurte of our saluation . And therefore , wée haue no néede , but to holde vs to Iesus Christe , and to assure our selues vpon his promises , béeing certeine and sure , that that whiche hée hath promised vnto that poore théefe hanging vppon the Crosse with him , saying : This daye shalt thou bée with mée in Paradise , Luc. ●3 . s . 43. toucheth and concerneth euery one of vs , as muche as him , if we be true faithfull . Behold the limittes whiche the Scripture appointeth vnto vs , within which wée must dwell , without tormenting our selues after the estate of the dead , and Purgatory , of which it maketh not mention of it one word .

Eusebius .

I know very well , that although I shoulde alledge all the Doctors which haue bene sithens the death and passion of Iesus Christ , vntill this present time , that I shall profitte nothinge with you . For when you perceiue that they are contrarye vnto your opinions you will not receiue them but when you thinke that they doe make for you : But you will runile to the Scripture , as the pleaders whiche haue an euill matter , doe séeke and finde out all the delayes that they canne , and do call alwayes from sentence to sentence , what soeuer wrong it be , or for to delaye theyr condempnation , or vnder hope that they haue to finde out some practise or shyfte for to deceiue and ouercome theyr party , and to corrupte the Iudges . Wherefore I doe well perceiue that I shal be nothing with you , if by the cleere and plaine texte of the Scripture , I doe ●ot sloppe your mouth .

Theophilus .

If thou cansl do it , thou hast gotten the victory . For vnto the same doe apperteine the extreame or latter Vn●o whom do ●●perreyne the extreme appe●●●vions in causes of ●d . ygloa appellations . And therefore it seemeth to mée , that you do greater wrong then we , without any comparison . For we doe not put our selues out of reason , nor from the ordinary of iustice , sith that we doe appeale to none other then to our ordinary . Iudge . For what wrong to we vnto men , Ordinary iudge if from them we doe appeale before God which is the soueraigne Iudge of al creatures , which hath already giué his sentence of our differences , by his word , and by the mouth of Iesus Christ his sonne , and of all his Prophets and Apostles , vnto the which we ought to stay our selues ? Diuine & humayne councells Mat. 18. Act. 15. b. 8. But you not beeing contented with them , do appeale from God vnto men : and from the counsell of the Prophets and Apostles , of whom Iesus Christ is president & chiefe thorow his holy spirite , to the councels of men , in whiche The power of the Pope . Dist. 34. c. ioctor . Glos . & dist. 82. ca. Hrestyter . & Glo. Apostolorum 17. q. 4. ca. 51. siquis . dist. 40. c St Papa . Dist. 96. c. Satis &c. simplices & inscriptis . the Popes doe rule and are President : who according to your doctrine , haue such power and authority that they may dispence against the apostolicall doctrine , & the right of nature , & consequently against the Gospell & the word of God . For the Pope hath all the diuine and humaine rights in the cabin and chest of his breast , & that he ought to iudge euery one & ought not to be iudged of any man : insomuch that when he shal leade innumerable of people & great companies into hell , no mortal man ought here to checke and rebuke him of his faultes . For he is god , who cannot be iudged of men .

Hillarius .

It followeth then , that if one doe see him to go to all the diuels & to drawe thither all the worlde with him , that none ought to saye vnto him that hee doth euill . For hee that sayth it , both Dist. 40. ca. Si Papa . iudgeth and rebuketh .

Eusebius .

The Canons do not deny , but that he is to be rebuked , if he be an hereticke , & that he erreth in the faith .

Theophilus .

But you do say that hee cannot erre . And The ●oye out ●f th : 〈◊〉 herefore when hee is an heretyke and out of the faithe dare we to rebuke him and his doctrine : no not by our au●●ority and silence , but by the same of God and of all his Prophets and Apostles , the whiche we do but propound : yea whiche is more , by that or the auncient Doctors , as thou mightest haue seene and knowen if thou wouldest . And if thou doe not content thyselfe with that , I will The witnesse of Antechrist agaynst his Purgatory . De bapt. & ofsee . cap. Maiores causat . God pardoneth not the moy●ie Versus Magistrales ex glosa Larga D●i pietas veniam non dimidial it Nam . nil . aut . totum te lacrymante dabat . shew vnto thee , how that wicked Antechrist condempneth himselfe of his owne mouth , and confesseth that there is no such Purgatory , as he woulde establish . For hee himselfe confesseth , after that he is much glorified , that God , whiche hath saued all men , knoweth no worke of imperfection . And for that cause , be pardoneth not sinnes in part . Therefore the glose made vpon that text alledgeth , two verses conteining that sentence : The great goodnes of god , will not pardon the halfe . For when with teares & wéeping thou comest vnto him , hee will giue thée all or nothing . Now if it were so that God reserueth one part of the sinnes , for to be punished in Purgatory , as you do affirme , it should follow that God worketh not but halfe with his seruants , the whiche none can say , without blasphemy : For the workes of God are perfect . Wherefore Deut. 32. ● . 4 if thou haue not Eusebius any better refuge in the holye Scripture then thou hast yet shewed foorth , thou hast lost thy cause by the sentence of God , and of all his seruants : yea of Antechrist himselfe whom the vertue of God compelleth to confesse the trueth , against his owne nose and inspite of his teeth , as the diuels did confesse Iesus Christe Mar. 8. d. 29 Marc. ● . c. 25 feeling his power , the which they could not resist .

Thomas .

Thou doest here what matters these people here haue declared vnto thee , Eusebius : Thou haddest almoste wonne me at the beginning of this disputation , & confirmed mee in thine opinion , when that I heard thee propound the words of Sainct Augustin . But now , after that I hearde their replyings , I am more vncerteine then before . Wherefore I muste here the rude of that cause , & the last sentence , the whiche is giuen by the word of God . I haue determined to declare vnto you the cause of my voyage . as I haue promised , after that Eusebius shal haue done with you : But I am content to deferre it vntill tomorrow , to the ende I maye returne vnto you more resolued . Wherfore I pray thée , Eusebius , that thou prepare thy selfe to fight with them valiantly by the sword of the word of God , and that we may see the ende of that Purgatory , and also of the Limbe , whereof the matter hath bene broken off , & hath not ben followed nor resolued . Yet neuerthelesse this is one pointe , the which I desire almoste asmuch the resolution , as of the Purgatory . And to the end you may haue the more leasure to debate of the matter , I will hold you no longer . But bicause that it is now so late , therfore me thinketh that it shal be better to take the time at our pleasure .

Hillarius .

I do like wel Thomas his counsell .

Theophilus .

I am content that we do suffer & graunt vnto Eusebius all that he would haue , to the ende we giue him none occasion to complaine , that he hath had no time and the meane to defende his cause .

Eusebius .

Sith that it is so , I doe agrée to your opinion : But it is vppon such condicion , whiche is of force , that before that I departe from you , either that you be of mine opinion , or I of yours : wherevppon saye a dieu , farewell .

Vnto the Reader .

It seemeth vnto mee good to adde vnto thee here the sequence of those that bee dead in Latin , the whiche was omitted in the margent , Fol. 167. where it is translated faithfully into English meeter .

Oratio siue sequentia ad beatam Mariam pro defunctis . Lugentibus in purgatorio , Qui torrentur ardore nimio Et torquentur sine remedio , Subueniat tua passio . O Maria. Fonses patens quae culpas abluis Omnes sanas & nullum respuis , Manum tuam extende mortuis Qui sub poenis languent continuis O Maria. Ad te pia , suspirant mortui , Cupientes de poenis erui , Et adesse tuo conspectui , Et gaudis aeternis persrui . O Maria. Clauis Dauid quae coelum aperis , Nune beata succurre miseris , Qui tormentis torquentur asperis , Educ eas de domo carceris . O Maria. Lex iuslorum , Norma credentium , Vera salus in te sperantium : Pro desunctis sit tibi sludium Assidue orare silium . O Maria. Benedicta per tua merita Te rogamus mortuos suscita , Et dimittens corum debita : Ad requiem sis eis semita . O Maria. FINIS .

¶ The table of the principall matters of the seconde parte of the Christian disputations . A. A Bell hearing Masse . 184 Abragan , 154 Abstinence and seperation from women . 141. Abstinence from lawfull thinges . 141. Abstinence from beasts flesh . 170 Abstinence from meates . 171. Accidents burned . 161. Accidents without substance . 162. Adam prest . 185. Admirasion of the water and salt . 152. Adonis . 150. Aduent . 139. Aerius . 192. Eaesculanus . 143. Affection folish towards the deade . 181. Affection of women that followed Iesus . 193. Alleluya . 150. Alexander Pope . 141. 163. Alexander Natiuitie . 156. Amburbales . 149. Aneylia . 161. Anchiles . 129. Anniuersaries 128. 130 Anexagoras . 123. Aunswere to the place of the 19. Chap. of Exodus . 117. 144 Antipopes . 190 Antiquitie of the name of Masse . 183. Antiquitie of the Aegyptians . 184. Antiquitie of the Areadians . 184. Antiquitie and instruction of mariage . 185 Apes of the Apostles . 126 Apparell white . 167 Appearing of spirits to what end they pretende . 135 Appellations extremes to whom they belong . 198 Apoph●hegme of Diogenes . 153. Artillerie Papisticall . 116 Aspersions and sprinklings at the entring in & comming forth of the temple . 153 Ashes holy . 168 Ashes of an Heyfer . 171 Ashes of the Auncients 169 Ashes of the vestales . 171. Saint Augustine . 175 Authoritie of S. Augustin for the suffrages for the deade . 176 Authors of the Masse . 183. Authours of the eclestiall and Ecclesiasticall Hierarchia . 126 Ayme Duke of Sauoye . 191 B. Bacchanales , Bacchus . 140 Banket and supper for the dead . 132 Baptisme deferred . 172 Baptisme for the dead 172. 183 Baptised to be for the dead . 172 Beginning of prayers for the deade . 116 Benifices and offices giuen by parentage . 139 Bellyes giuen to slouth vnder coulour of religion . 123 Bessation . 191 Berengarus . 139 Bying of the sielde of Ephron . 118 Bloud of Iesus . 163 Blessing of the brides bed . 147 Blessing of Torches and Tapers . 153 Blessing of the Pascell fire . 157 〈…〉 171 〈…〉 ●●6 . 138 〈…〉 195 〈…〉 of proposit●●● . 144 〈◊〉 and mourning for Iacob and Mosis . 117 C. Candelles of a good saiut . 181 Candelles blessed and prucessious . 151 Candelles for the health of soule and bodie . 152 Candelmes day . 147 Caru● the goddesse the porter . 167 Castor and Pollus . 1●1 The cause of the mourning of the Israelites . 119 The cause of the institucion of feasts . 147 Celerin and his family . 179 Cereales . 151 Certitude in the doctrme of faith required . 196 Ceremonies . 170 Chameleon . 1●3 Charmes . 152 Chastitie and secretly . 145 Chase away the diuell by fasting & prayers . 171 Charge of ceremonies . 130 Cloris . 166 Christians sauage wilde . 146 Combat of Mars and Mine●●a . 136 The true Commemoration of the death of Iesus Christ . 151 Commemorantes . 181 To Communicate sacramentally & spiritually . 186 Comparison of the Ashes of an Heiser & holy water . 163 Conformitie and deformitie of the Bacchanales and the Shroftide . 146 Conformities betweene the religion of the Pa●●ms and the Popes . 136 Conformitie betweene God mars and faint Ge●rge . 137 Conformitie of the feastes of the deade . 137 Conformitie of Cyble to our Lady . 138 Constancy of the Greekes . 190 Complaint of Saint Augustine . 130 Co●●uring of the water . 153 To put the Lorde about the necke . 144 Co●empaing of the Gospel . 14● Counsell and moderation of Saint Paul 144 Councile of Constance and of Basle . 187 Councile of Florence . 190 Councile of Lateran . 190 Councile of Basill . 190 Councile of Ferrara . 190 Councile of Innocent Pope and others . 190 Conuent of Monkes . 183 Couetous of renowne 156 Creatures of the Pope . 143 Creators of the creatour . 143 Craft and deceite of a Priest of Canopus . 157 Custome of the Romaines . 123 Custome of the Thracians . 122 Custome of the Cathercumenes . 172 Custome of the Lecedemonians . 123 Custome of the Lycians . 123 Custome auncient of the Massilians . 123 Cyble . 137 Cygales . 133 Cyp●●an . 177 D. Dayes appointed to mourne . & for what cause . 119 Dayes Aristotolicalls . 134 Dayes dedicated to the deed . 117 Dau●d and Abimelech . 141 Denis Areopag●te . 126. 177 Diana Strongilios or Diana Rotunda . 138 The disceite which Faunus did thinke to do vnto Hercules . 147 Difference betweene ●hisike and Philosphiie , a charmer and a Magicyan . 154 Dishonour vnto the Urigin Mary , 151 Little dispenses & costes about the dead . 132 Dispensation of mariage . 124 Dispensations of the Pope . 141 Disputations of the bablers of Diuinytie . 196 Disputations of the Athess of the hoast . 161 Diuersitie of opinions touching the suffrages for the dead . 196 Doctrine of the Apostles perfect . 193 Dionisiales . 146 E. Easter . 150 Ecc●● . 115 Egges of Serpents . 197 Elect in daunger to be seduced . 197 Aeneas . 129 Ende of mans life . 142 Ende of the Popes Lawes . 143 Eucratistes and Seuerians 141 Epitaphe of Lucresse . 141 Errour of the Idolaters and hypocrits . 164 Example of Dauid . 125 Excommunication for communion . 18● Exhortacion to repentance . 144 F. False following of the worke of Saints . 164 Fastings condempned . 170 Fastings of the auncients . 169 Fastings and abstinence of the Panims . 171 Fastings . 167 Fasting the principall vse . 170 Fannes and Satyres . 147 Februa . 131. 149 Feastes and Anniuersaries for the deade and their beginning . 128 Feasted for the deade in Februarie . 129 Feastes of Martyrs and confessors . 13● The feast of the dead . 138 An other feast of the dead . 139 Feasts of mad men . 140 Feast of saint Peters chaire . 133 Feasts of the dead in May . 129 Feasts cut in peeces . 139 An other feast of the deade in Ianuarie . 139 Feasts of fooles . 140 Feast of Kings . 14● Feast of the Panims comprised in the feast of Candels . 14● Feralis Coena . 132 Fire of Vesta . 158 Fire Diuturnall and eternall . 194 Fire kindeled in the Temple of Vesta . 160 Fire and water the Gods of the Papists . 157 Fire the God of the Persians . 154 Fire made a God . 159 Fires of S. Brandon & of Ihon. 168 The true fire what it is . 162 Flora. 166 Florales . 151. 166. Fluona . 149 The force of gold and of Iron . 159 Fraction or breaking of the hoast . 188 G. Gerion . 131 Gift of continency . 144 Gifts to doe myracles in the primitiue Church . 126 Goddesse Pecunia . 143 Goddesse of Beasts . 169 God Ris. 150 God compared to fire . 155 God Canopus . 156 Gods of fire and water . 162 The great God of the Pope . 14● The most puissant God of the Priests . 158 Good fryday . 150 Gold why it is pale . 159 Gregory the first . 116 Gregory the third . 116 Gregory the fourth . 138 H. Handkerchefe of Chambery . 160 Harpe of Orpheus and that of the pope . 131 Hecate triua & triformis . 131 Hercules . 131 Herostratus . 156 Hillaria . 150 Holy bread and the breade of saint Agathe . 165 Holy hoast 158 Hoostes the subtillest in the world . 186 Humilytie famed . 170 Hypocrits . 170 Hymenius the God of mariages . 136 I. Ieto me contrarie vnto mariage . 145 Saint Iessiye . 140 Ieast of a holy father . 134 Iewes among the Christians . 160 Idolatrie of the fire and plamrets . 155 Images Noses stopped and couered . 172 Images instruments of the diuell . 155 Image of saint George cast into Saine . 137 Imitacion of the Iewes and Panyms and of Mahomet . 128 Incredulytie . 171 Induction . 142 Institucion of the supper . 185 Infirmitie of man . 148 Interpretation of the blessing of the new fire . 157 Inuocation of Saints . 181 Iulian the Apostat . 132 Iuno Sospita . 167 Iuno and Diana Queene of Heauen . 138 Iupiter a sauiour . 167 L Laughing of the Soules . 134 Lawe of ●uma for the marriage of widowes . 124 Lawes of marriage what they ought to be . 124 Laws of the Romaines of the mourning of widowes . 124 Lawe of the Iewish funeralles . 120 Lawe of fastings . 169 Lawes cimles and obedience to Maiestrates . 142 Lewes King. 1●9 Lent. 240 Libertie of the Gospell . 120 Libertie Christian . 11● Lymit of mans affection . 121 Lugentibus in Purgatory . 166 Lupercales . 129. 149 M. Manner by the which the soules are de●uered . 176 Manner and fashion of mourning among the auncients . 123 Manners and life of Pope Iohn . 139 Manicheans . 140 Man without meanes and howe he vseth the exteriour things . 148 Mantell or cloake of Iuno . 149 Marriage forbidden . 139 Marriage forbidden among the Panims at certeine times . 136 Saint Marie le Rounde . 137 Saint Margarete . 138 Mars . 149 Masses for the deade first begun . 180 Massalians and Romaines . 123 Masse for the deade . 1●7 Masses priuate and particular . 185 The Caster Masse of the whooremonger Priests . 147 Masse what company it ought to haue . 188 Maske of Sathan . 138 Matter to make the Ashes . 171 Meanes that we must keepe at the mournings and funeralls , and the viees of the Panims . 120 Memento of the quicke and deade . 189 Meria . 169 Metellus . 160 Mondayes dedicated to the deade . 129 Monica . 176. 193 Mortie of the supper taken from the people . 187 Montanus hereticke . 169 Mourning vndecent for Christians . 122 Mourning of Samuel and Paul . 125 Mourning of the auncient Israelits . 125 Mourning for the liuing and those that be sicke . 125 Mourning for the dead . 117 Mute the Goodesse . 168 Multitude of Masses forbidden . 188 N. Names of the Popes chaunged . 189 Natiuitie of Alexander . 156 Nauclerus . 116 Nensuains . 127 Numa . 129 Nymphes of the Priests and of the Panims . 133 O. Obey for conscience . 143 Obiection . 117. 14● Obsequies of the Greekes in September 130 Odilo the good Abbot . 138 Office of Mercure 131. 131 Office of a wise man . 123 Olimpias . 156 Onction with oyle and extreame onction 126 Opinion of Saint Augustine touching Purgatorie . 191 Osiris and Serapis . 150 Order of the Christian assembles . 178 Ordinance and vse of mariage . 144 Order & vse of creatures turned vpside-downe . 153 Order of Saint Benet . 188 Order of the dead . 181 Oracle of Apollo . 132. 133 Originall of priuate Masses . 183. Originall of Images . 181 Orphens and Erridice . 131 Our Lady . 166 Ouid a Prophet of the Pope . 135 P. Palladium . 160 Palis a goddesse . 168 saint Pansard . 140 Pantheon and all saints . 137 ‛ God pardoneth not the moytie . 199 Pascall taper . 158 Perfumes holy . 171 Persians without Temple or Images . 156 Philosophie Pitagorieall . 119 Phocas . 138 Place of the 1. Samuel 21. Chapter . 144 Place of Ioel. 2. Chapter . 144 Plaister for all sores . 153 Pluto of the Christians . 131 Pope Sergius . 150 Pope Felix . 191 Pope Pelagius . 116 Pope Martyn . 146. 190 Pope Eugenius . 190 Pope out of the faith . 198 Pope what God he is . 142 To possede and keepe his vessell in honour . 141 Power of the Pope . 131. 198 Power of the fire vpon the Gods. 155 Prayer . 169 Praise of Tertulian . 177 Praxi●les . 1●8 Predecessors of the Papists . 135 Preparation to the Lords table . 14● Priest stroken . 153 Prose and sequence for the dead . 166 Preparation to the Bacchanales . 146 Prouerbe of the Moukes . 145 Procession of Mars . 136 Procession of the feait God and the holy fire . 158 Prolerpina and Hecate Queene of Heauen and Hell. 166 Profite of sackcloth and Ashes . 170 purgatorium sacrum quod vocant Februm 130 Purgations of men and beasts . 168 Purgatory and his beginning . 180 Purgatorie reiected of the Greekes . 190 Purgatorie is for all men or els it is not . 169 Purgatory receiued by the Greekes . 191 Purgatorie in this worlde . 194 Purgatorie for the quicke & deade . 171 Of Purgatory a question . 181 Purgatious . 162 Punishment for dispising the soules . 135 Purifications of women . 149 Purification after the funeralles . 120 Purification . 149 Put on sackcloth and ashes . 169 R. Raigne of Antichrist and the working of iniquitie . 197 The honorable recantation of Berengarius . 188 Recyting of the Psalter . 126 Remembrance of the dead in the supper . 182 Representation of the Euangelical light 151 Requeseant in Pace of the bawde . 133 Robes of the Priests doing myracles . 149 Rogations . 140. 149 Rome , old and newe . 128. 135 Romulus and Remus Lemuria . 129 Rudiments of Religion . 170 S. Sacraments . 134 Sacrifice of the Alter and of a Mediatour . 182 Sacrifice of praise & thanks giuing . 182 Sacrifice to the infernall Gods. 149 Sacrifice in the auncient Church what it signifieth . 178 Sacrifice of the Martyrs . 179 Sacrifice of reconcilietion . 182 Sacrum Purgatorium quod vocant Februm . 130 The saying of the Turke touching the Popish Masse . 186 Scismes and Antipopes . 190 Scrip of Mercury . 131 Selling of God . 143 Seperation of the husband and wife for a time . 144 Septanarii . 119 Septuagesima . 140 Sergius . 189 Seuerus . 14● Shrofe Sundaye . 146 Shadowes hauing teeth and bellyes . 133 Shadowes of the dead . 133 Sigismonde . 190 Signification of a Comet . 139 Signification of Februarie . 130 Signification of the fire of the perpetaal Holocauste . 157 Sinne against the Pope . 197 Sinne against the holy Ghost . 197 Sunne against the Pope and against God . 142 Sinnes beniall deaced . 163 Sinne mortall . 163 Soules and wandering shadowes . 135 Statutes for the communion . 189 Suffrages of the dead . 196 Superstition of Gregory . 145 Supper what sacrifice it is . 182 Supper deformed . 183 Supper for the dead . 172 Supper populer . 187 Supper despised . 189 Supper sacrifice of redemption . 189 To take the Supper for the dead . 183 T. Table set for the soules . 133 Tacianus . 141 Thanmus . 150 Temeritie to affirme 196 Temples burned in Asia . 155 Temple of Diana burned . 156 Temple of Diana Ephesian . 156 Temple of Fortune . 152 Ternatii . 119 Theologia Academica . 162. 196 Thelogia Aquatica . 162 Three Popish crownes . 131 Theseus and Py●othus . 131 Time ordinarie for the mourning of the Israelites . 118 Time prescribed for mourning . 121 Times of sastings . 140 Tytles of Christ . 167 Tytles of Images . 155 Tytles of the Goddesses of the Panims . 166 Torches of the Christians . 151 Translation of the bones of Ioseph . 118 Translation of Iacob into the lande of Canaan . 118 Transubstantiation . 139. 187 V. Valentinian . 152 The Uaile . 172 Uertue of Iesus Christ ●anfferred to the creatures . 153 Uictory of Canopus . 157 Uicare at the tuble . 187 Uicare of faith . 187 Uigiles for the dead . 149 Uisitacion of the sicke . 126 Use of extreme vnction . 126 W. Washings of the Turkes . 164 Washings of the Phariles . 146 The true washings . 165 Two wayes onely . 194 Water of seperation consecrated with the Ashes of an Heyfer . 120 True holy water . 165 The whippes of the Lupercalls . 149 The kinde of wine . 187 Witnesse of the faith of the Patriarks . 118 Witnesse of saint Augustin against papisticall Purgasory 193 Witnesse of the most auncient doctours against Purgatory . 194 Witnesse of Antichrist against his Purgatorst . 199 X. Xerces . 155 FINIS TABVLAE .

¶ THE THIRD PART of the Christian disputations .

By Master Peter Viret .

Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Asshe next Sandwich .

1. COR. CAPT. 1. XXX .

¶ Iesus Christ is made vnto vs of God , wisdome & righteousnesse of sanctification and redemption .

MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR Ē VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206)

¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East .

THE ARGVMENT AND SVMME of the fift Dialogue .

THomas declareth the causes , for which he did enterprise and take in hande his vioage vnto Sainct Patricke . And inasmuch as Eusebius could not mainteine his Purgatory by the aunerent Doctors of the Church , he laboureth and enforceth himselfe , if he can relieue it , through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture , and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second booke of the Marchabees : by occasion whereoff , is intreated , the difference which ought to be put , betweene the bookes that are Canonicall & those that are Apocryph : And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie & reputation that booke ought to be among the Christians . Afterwards , although peraduenture , there shal be some matters , which may seeme somewhat curious vnto some men , yet neuertheles shall be spoken of the Limbes , as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead , & dead without circumcision & baptisme , & of the difference which may be betweene them which haue ben vnder the new & old testament , as wel little as great , as wel quick as dead , & of their condition & estate . We do entreate of those things very amply bicause that many do moue questions , & that there is good , prositable & necessary points to be vnderstanded , for to correct many errors , abuses & false opinions , thuching those matters , which are come among the Christians . Ther shal be in like manner spoken of baptisine administred by women & declared by liuely & plain reasons , how Iesus Christ , is the onely health & satisfaction of all the elect , & children of God : & how the vertue & efficacie of his death & pasion extendeth it selfe from the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the same . Item , what is the true baptisme of Iesus Christ : the remission of sinnes , & the satisfaction worthy of the righteousnesse of God . To what ende the god woorkes doe profit the Christian . What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill , and by what means some are deliuered , and other some doe abide subiect . Furthermore , how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one , and whether we ought yet to attend & loke for it : And how Hel and Paradise doe begin already in this world , & when their full and whole consumation shal bee . It shal be in like manner declared , how the place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory : And there shall be also declared of the manner , by which the auncient people of God haue prayed for the dead , and for the comming of Iesus Christ , and wherein the Christians may follow it , without speaking against the word of God . It shal be also touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himselfe to establish his Purgatory , and the prayers for the dead , and what maske & instrument he hath chosen for to do that . Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels , bicause that wee doe declare how many hels the Papisticall doctrine hath forged for vs , and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded .

¶ THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels .

EVsebius . For as much as Thomas hath reserued for himselfe one part of this day for to make his Narration , and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greatest parte , therefore it is good reason that hée do begin first . Wherfore I giue him the choice , whether he will go before or behinde .

Hillarius .

I desire for my part , that Thomas doe rehearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage . For I doe much desire to heare it and vnderstand it .

Thomas .

Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it . For thou canst not heare of me any thing which is much worth . Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace , if you wyll . For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée , you will mocke me , chiefly Hillarius , who is so expert in that occupation . I beléeue that it is the chiefest cause , wherefore hée so greatlye desireth to heare my wordes . Wherefore I thinke it best Eusebius , that thou doe procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent . For the matters that you haue to intreat off , are better then those which you can heare of mée : And in hearing you , I may profite , but in speaking , I can but spende the time , the which you wil employ and best nine to a better ende . And therefore beginne , and after if there be any spare time , I will sée what I shal do .

Theophilus .

I beleeue that we shal haue time inough . Feare not them to begin , sith that thou hast alredy told vs , that thou wilt not be ouer long . But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good . For that cause dost loue to be entreated so much , knowing that the more thou refusest to tel vnto vs that we demaund , so much the more we desire it .

Thomas .

I haue regard vnto another thing . I consider the which Salomon hath written , saying : if a foole do hold his tongue , he shal be counted wise . For he compareth Pro. 17. d. 28 Iudgement by the world . man , to a loohing glasse , or a bell the which one doth know by the sounde ; whether they be broken or whole . So in like manner may one iudge of man , in hearing him speake , whether hée be wise or foolish . For one perceiueth the spirit of man , in his word . As his figure in a glasse : and one may beholde in the same , the nature of him , as the complection of the body in his water & vrine , by which it is easie to iudge , what drogues hee hath in the shoppe of his braine .

Hillarius .

Thou wilt that one should saye of thée , that which a Philosopher once said of a certeine man that he did sée sit at a banket , which spake not a word , although that all the others did put foorth certeine questions , & gaue vnto him matter inough for to speake in his course . If that man ( saith Apothegma . he ) be a wise man , hée playeth the part of a foole : if he be a foole , he playeth the part of a wise man .

Thomas .

I cannot well vnderstand that matter . For me thinketh that it conteineth & implyeth contradiction .

Hillarius .

He giueth therby to vnderstand , that euen as too much speaking apperteineth vnto fooles & ideots , so alwaies to holde ones peace , agréeth to beasts , and not vnto men . Wherfore ther must be a meane kept in all things .

Thomas .

That is the same to the which I pretend : And I doe thinke , that I speak ynough according to the place & men with whom I am . And bicause that I am not wise , for to speak wel . I wil at the leastwise thorow silence thorow silence counterfet the wise . For it is commonly said : it is euil to speak Latin before learned men . When Common pro●erb I am with ignoraunt men as my selfe , I doe speake as a Doctor , especially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or scruple more of knowledge then they . But when I come before you , I doe loose by and by all my babling .

Hillarius .

Thou wouldest héere very gladly make an ende . But thou must first declare vnto vs that thou hast promised .

Thomas .

Sith that thou vrgest mée so much , thou shalt haue it : But if thou doest mocke mée , bée assured , that I shall haue as good matter agaynst thee , for to render vnto thée the lyke . For thou thinckest to heare some greate secrete , and thou shalt finde thy selfe deceiued : doest thou not know mée yet , Hillarius ? First of all , thou art not ignoraunt , how that I was neuer verye wise . Thou mayst then presume , what merchaundise I can bring foorthe of my shoppe , and what Doctor contemplatiue I may bée . Thou knowest verye well that I am called

Thomas .

Now if I be Thomas of name , yet I approch nerer of the nature of my godfather , of whom I do beare the name then of his name . If hée hath ben incredule The incredulity of Thomas Iohn . 20. ●●● . and vnbleeuinge , insomuch that hée woulde not beleeue the resurrection of Iesus Christ , excepte hée dyd see him , himselfe , with his owne eyes , and touche him wyth his hand , and except he did put his fingers in his wounds . So for my parte , I doe doubt , and know not well whome I may beleeue . But I haue greater occasion to doubte , then Sainct Thomas had . For hée hearde the promyse which Iesus Christ made of his resurrection , of whiche hée had not so●iust an occasion to doubte , sith that hée had already so many times founde by experience Iesus Christ true in all his words , and that he had all his fellowes and companions , who with one accorde did tell him , howe hée appeared vnto them after his resurrection , and that they had seene him and touched him . But I , whiche am but a poore ideot and very ignoraunt , what ought I to thinke , and whereto ought I to staye my selfe , when I consider the diuersitie of opinions whiche is amonge men , touchinge the religyon , and namely touching the estate of the dead , and of the infernall and celestiall regyons and habitations , yea , amongest the moste sage and wisest ? As I haue proued in these dayes amonge your selues , who are of as contrarye a sentence the one from the other , as the fire and the water . Therefore haue I taken in hande the voiage of Sainct Petricke , in which S. Patricks wels as men say , one shall see the estate of all the dead : the tormentes of the dampned which are in bell , and of the soules detayned and kepte in Purgatorye and in the Limbe , and in lyke manner the ioyes of Paradise . Therefore I doe trust and hope , that I may be there informed in the truth of all those things , and that after I haue séene them I shal be out of all doubt . For I know no more to seeke any other remedies . Yet neuerthelesse , sithence that I haue beard these matters debated more amply and cléerely and better declared , then euer I did before , I haue very much lost my fantasie . You doe well remember , that I sayd , that after that I had spoken to the holy father , who hath so well disciffered that matter , that peraduenture I should haue gained my voiage , without going vnto him , I feare very much that before that I depart from you , you will cut off all the way , and make it shorter . For I hope through the helpe of God , that we will visite this day all those chambers & internall habitations without mouing our selues from hence , and before that we depart , if that the one and the other of you doe that , whereof you brag and vaunt your selues you will . For you haue promised on euery of your partes , that you will haue recourse to none other Iudge , but to the pure word of God . And as for mée , if you take it for the Iudge , I am wel content , The worde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa. 119. c. 05. to take it for my guide : And I am certeine that it will guide mée better , then Cyble guided Aeneas .

Theophilus .

If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured , Dauid , who speaketh by experience , can certify thée , saying . Thy woord O Lorde is a lanterne vnto my féete . That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead , as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bee lead of Syble vnto his father Anchises , but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God , thy immortall father , whome by the same thou shalt heare speake , for to put thee out of all doubt .

Hillarius .

Ther is also an other point , that when we shal haue ended The gates of dreames . the voiage , we shal not go by the gates of dreams , as Aeneas : or as our holy father , whom we haue heard dreame so wel , as all such as hee is doe , which repose & rest themselues in any other bed , then vppon the pure word of God . For it hath such vertue , that whosoeuer resteth vpon it shall neuer dreame nor raue : or it bee dreame , hee goeth not by the gates of Iuory , but by the horne gate , which is cleere The gate of Iuory & horne & through the which one may sée as with the eyes : in such sort that such dreames are more certeine , then that which others doe sée with their eyes : as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel . But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed , shall neuer cease to dreame and wander The dreames of the Saints & of the erring Theologisters astray out of the waye : And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory , which is thicke as the bones are , Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the same , as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all . For after the they haue well banketed & moisted themselues with that good Theological wine , they haue the spirite of wine that which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them , & maketh The spirite of Bacchus them to enter by the gate of Iuory , that is to saye , betwéene the téeth and chawes , which causeth so many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine , & so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine , that they do dreame more déeper , then the lowest parts of hell and the seate of Lucifer . Afterwards they returne beeing rauished in their Poetical furor & madnesse , as if they were departed all newly and freshe . But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of chewing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes , as the Organ bellowes , so doe they go foorth by the very same gate .

Thomas .

Let vs then go in by the other gate , and in suche sobrietie , that we may know the things , as though we saw them with our eyes . But who shal begin to declare & shew it vnto vs ? mee thinketh that Eusebius maketh himself ready . Begin then to knocke , & cause it to be opened vnto vs ?

Eusebius .

I will enter first by the olde testament .

Hillarius .

But take good heede you lead vs not awrye , and to take the one for the other : For if thou doe erre and go astray , we will direct and leade thee into it againe .

Eusebius .

But I will direct and leade you well . Giue 〈…〉 eare then vnto that which is written of I●das Machabens , Therefore I t●● trust and hope , that I may be there informed in the truth of all those things , and that after I haue séene them I shall be out of all doubt . For I know no more to séeke any other , remedies . Yet neuerthelesse , sithence that I haue beard these matters debated more emply and cléerely and better declared , then euer I did before , I haue very much lost my fantasie . You doe well remember , that I sayd , that after that I had spoken to the holy father , who hath so well disciffered that matter , that paraduenture I should haue gained my voiage , without going vnto him , I feare very much that before that I depart from you , you will cut off all the way , and make it shorter . For I hope through the helpe of God , that we will visite this day all those chambers & infernall habitations without mouing our selues from hence , and before that we depart , if that the one and the other of you doe that , whereof you brag and baunt your selues you will . For you haue promised on euery of your partes , that you will haue recourse to none other Iudge , but to the pure word of God . And as for mée , if you take it for the Iudge , I am wel content The worde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa. 119. c. 105. to take it for my guide : And I am certeine that it will guide mée better , then Cyble guided Aeneas .

Theophilus .

If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured , Dauid , who speaketh by experience , can certify thée , saying . Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vnto my féete . That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead , as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vnto his father Anchises , but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God , thy immortall father , whome by the same thou shalt heare speaks , for to put thée out of all doubt .

Hillarius .

Ther is also an other point , that when we shal haue ended The gates of dreames . the voiage , we shal not go by the gates of dreams , as Aeneas : or as our holy father , whom we haue heard dreame so wel , as all such as hée is doe , which repose & rest themselues in any other bed , then vppon the pure word of God . For it hath such vortue , that whosoeuer resseth vpon it shall neuer dreame nor rane : or if hée dreame , hée goeth not by the gates of Iuory , but by the horne gate , which is cléere The gate of Iuory & herne & through the which one may sée as with the eyes : in such sort that such dreames are more certeine , then that which others doe sée with their eyes : as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel . But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed , shall neuer cease to dreame and wander The dreames of the Saints & of the e●ring Theologisters astray out of the waye : And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory , which is thicke as the bones are . Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the same , as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all . For after the they haue well banketed & moisted themselues with that good Theological wine , they haue the spirite of wine the which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them , & maketh The spirite of Bacchus them to enter by the gate of Iuory , that is to saye , betwéene the téeth and chawes , which causeth so many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine , & so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine , that they do dreame more déeper , then the lowest parte of hell and the seate of Lucifer . Afterwards they refurne béeing rauished in their Poetical furor & madnesse , as if they were departed all newly and freshe . But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory , by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes , as the Organ bellowes , so doe they go foorth by the very same gate .

Thomas .

Let vs then go in by the other gate , and in such fobrietie , that we may know the things , as though we saw them with our eyes . But who shal begin to declare & shew it vnto vs ? mée thinketh the Eusebius maketh himself ready . Begin then to knocke , & cause it to be opened vnto vs ?

Eusebius .

I will enter first by the olde testament .

Hillarius .

But take good héede you lead vs not awrye , and totake the one for the other : For if thou doe erre and go astray , we will direct and leave thée into it againe .

Eusebius .

But I will direct and leade you well . 2. Mach. 12. g. 43. Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iudas Machabens , who sent to Hierusalem two thousande Dragmas of stluer , for to be offered for a sacrifice for the sinnes of those which were dead . In which place he did well and right . For he had some consideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time . For if hee had not thought that those which were slaine did yet liue , it had bene super fluous and vaine to make any vow or sacrifice for them that were dead . But for so much as he saw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God , are in good rest & ioy , he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconciling , to doe the same for those which were slaine , that the offence might be forgiuen . Is it possible to finde a terte more cléerer ? Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus send such a summe of Siluer the number of two thousand Dragmas The value of the thousand Dragmas which are worth a thousand and two hundreth Crownes , if wee accompt them after our money , if he had not bene certeine , that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead ?

Theophilus .

Thou doest here open vnto vs a goodlye field to dispute off , and wil eng●der to vs many questions , the which I will propound vnto thée , and we will declare them at large one after an other , and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can serue you , for to proue Purgatory . I doe then first demaunde of thée in what reputation thou hast that bookes of the Macchabees ? The authoritie of the bookes of the Machabces . and whether thou do holde them for canonicall , or Apocripha ?

Eusebius .

I hold it but for such as it is , that is to say , holy , Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church . For is it not conteined in the Bible ?

Theopilus

I do not benie but that it is fastened & sowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible , but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical , & of such Authority as the others which we haue receiued of the Hebrews , which alwayes haue bene receiued & allowed of all the catholicke Churche , without any contradiction .

Eusebius .

I am not now abashed , though you will not receiue the authority of the auncient Doctors , sith that you are so shamelesse , that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture . I doe know by experience that you must haue a Bible made according or after your owne pleasure . For you are like vnto the auncient heritickes which will not take out of the holy scriptures , but the places whiche they thinke moste méete and proper for to giue colour to their heresies : and do reiect all the other , as vnworthy of the spirite of God . Is not that to great arrogancie , to make the spirite of God , & his word to be subiect vnto your iudgement ? Thou mayst wel perceiue Thomas , that now they doe féele themselues muche gréeued , when they are constrayned to refuse the Iudge , vnto whom they haue appealled : and which in stéede to be iudged of him , they would iudge him .

Theophilus .

Stay a while

Eusebius .

Thou hast not yet gotten or obteyned thy sute . Thinke not that wée are become Papistes , sithens that we haue spoken vnto thée : And that we woulde attribute vnto our selues authority , power and iudgment aboue the spirite of God , as he doth : wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechrist , to whom alone it apperteineth . We haue not vsed to reproue one onelye stllable of the holy Scriptures : But if we discerne & put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical & those that are Apocripha , thou oughtest not to accuse vs Books canonical & Apocripha . therefore , except thou doe , by that same reason , render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church , chiefely Sainct Hierome , and in like manner your decrées and Canons : whiche doe seperate those that are Canonicall from those that bée Apocrapha , amongst whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees .

Eusebius .

I confesse that amonge the Iewes , it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue : but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church . Wherefore I conclude , that those that beny , that they are not canonicall , are not the sonnes of the Church ; but bastardes of the Sinagogue .

Hillarius .

Thou hast at the leaste kepte that same of ●ccius , Behold one shot of his Canons .

Theophilus .

If it be so , Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals , in that prolegne The iudgement of saint Hierom touching the bookes of the Machabee● . Hiero. Pauli . in whiche be hath recited them all in order ? doest thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted these here , then the other ? And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus , which he hath set before the bookes of the Kings , both hee not make expresse mention of those bookes amenge the Apocriphas ? and principally of the second out of the which the place by thée alleged is taken ? For hee saith that hée hath founde the first written in Hebrew : But not the seconde , the which hath bene onely written in Greeke . The whiche thing , as he saith , may proue it selfe by the p●rase and manner of the speaking , the which hée vsed . To the which agréeth well that which hee writing against the Pelagians , nameth Ioseph for the author of the historye Ioseph the anthor of the bookes of the Machabees of the Machabees , vnderstanding that by him it was written . Then if by the testimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome , that history hath bene written by Ioseph , b●ée ought not to estéeme it to be of more greater authority , than the other bookes of Ioseph , the which we do reade ● no receiue , The bookes of Ioseph . as histories , very profitable : But a greate deale wantoth , that we should attribute vnto them so much authoritie , as vnto those , the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt , to be the body of the holy Scripture . Therefore said S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouer●es of Salomon : The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees , but shee receineth them net among the Canonical .

Eusebius .

Then wherfore hath Sainct Augustin written , De ciui . Dei. li 18. ca. 36 that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall ?

Theophilus .

Consider well how he hath writen in that same place which thou alledgest , speaking of the number of the times , which haue bene sithence the returning from Babilon , vntill the comming of Iesus Christe . Did he not write , that the account and number of them , are not found in the holy Scriptures , which are called Canonicall but in the other , among which are the bookes of the Machabees ? Doest thou not sée and perceiue that he seperateth those bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures .

Eusebius .

Wherfore dost thou cut off fthe tayle ? why dost thou not adde , that which followeth afterwardes ? The whiche ( sayth hée ) the Iewes hold not for Canonical , but the Church doth .

Theophilus .

But doth he not adde by and by the reason wherefore , the which serueth to my purpose ?

Eusebius .

Hee sayth , that it is bicause of the vehement Martirs bescre the comming of Iesus Christ and merueilous passions of some Martirs , whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe , for the lawe of GOD , before that Iesus Christ came in the fleshe and suffred griefes and horrible torments .

Theophilus .

He vnderstandeth by those Martirs , the seuen brothers of the Machabees , The Machabees 2. Mac. 7. a. 1 Antiochus with their mother , who loued rather that Antiochus shoulde dismember and torment them cruelly , then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of God . It is easie to vnderstand by those words , that the Church hath not receiued those bookes , in suche authoritie , as those which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical & Apostolical church , nor to be sufficient , for to allow & confirme , or for to builde any doctrine , which ought to be holē for an article of faith , & for to vanquish the hereticks : But only in such stéede , as we haue at this day the ecclesiastical histories , & legends of martirs : not a heape of foolish & fabulous legends , made by a heape of dreaming The legends of Saints Dist. 15. ca. sancta . and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks , as are the liues of the fathers , the golden legend , and other like , more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras , Orson , & Valentine , the erring kinghtes , Mandeuill , or the true narrations of Lutian , and others like , made for pleasure , then among the Ecclesiasticall histories . But they haue bene in suche reputacion among the wise men , as the bookes of Iosephus , Eusebius , Sozomenus , Theodoritus , Socrates , and such other whiche haue written the Ecclesiasticall histories , and the liues of Martyrs , for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche , as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples : But not that they are of such authoritie , that they are sufficient for to sette foorth anye newe doctrine , of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apoostlicall doctrine . And that it is euen so as I doe saye , I will not proue it by anye other witnes , then by the same whiche thou bringest foorth against mee : That is to saye , Sainct Augustin , who hath written in an other place after this manner , saying : The Iewes haue not the scripture of the Machabees , as the Law , the Prophets and Psalmes , to the which the Lord Iesus rendereth witnes , as vnto this witnesses , saying : All must bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Luc. 24. g. 44. Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalmes . But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche , not without profit , if one doe reade and marke it soberly . Doth hée not euidentlye declare by those wordes , howe muche the authoritie of the same is abased in comparison of the others , the whiche Iesus Christe taketh for witnesses ? Asmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke , whiche contayneth the exposition of the Créede , and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian . Hée plainelye sheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche . Wherefore it is almoste folly to striue and fight so long time , if it were not , but that our aduersaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue , that it is of the holy Scripture , and that we doe deny it . After that sorte haue bene allowed The Canons the Apostles . Dsti . 16. casex againta . & can canoner propter . some bookes , called the Canons o● the Apostles , the whiche some among the auncients , and among the Popes and counsels haue bene holden some for Canonical , and others for Apocripha , bicause that they doe serue in many thinges confirmable to the Apostolicall doctirne : but they were not bound vnto them , as vnto the holy Scriptures , whiche they cannot reiect , as they haue done often times , when they haue found , any Canon , whiche séemeth much to differ from the Apostolicall doctirne . Euen so maye we do of the bookes of the Machabees . We may wel draw out of them examples , for to exhorte the faithfull vnto paclence , constancy and Martirdome , propounding and declaring vnto them the vertue and the faith of that good mother , with hir seuen sonnes , who stoode so constantlye vnto death , for to mainteine the Lawe of Gode , who had not yet neuerthelesse such an occasion to doe that , as we , whiche haue more sure and certeine witnesses of the resurrection and of examples more euident , aswell in Iesus Christ as in his Apostles & dysciples , then they had , And so said S. Augstyne . But it followeth not therfore that Dist. 16. ca. ●none . Glos . at● touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and religion , they should be with equall authority with the others . And therefore the glose made vpon the decrée recysith them among the Apocripha .

Eusebius .

I woulde gladly that thou wouldest declare vnto mée a litle more plainely , what thou vnderstandest by the Canonicals and Apocripha .

Theophilus .

I doe call canonicall , all the bookes of The e●onicall bookes . the new testament the whiche wée haue : and of the doe , in like manner , all those whiche are conteyned in the Hebrwe . Bible , the which we haue receiued of the holy Prophets and true seruaunts of God , and whose authors are certeine and knowen . And we doe cal them Canonicall , which signifieth asmuch as rules , bicause they are of an infallible veritie , & a certeine & sure rule whiche is giuen vs of god , for to ruel & examine al other doctrine , & to proue the spirites whelter they are of God , and for to liue according to the same .

Eusebius .

And what vnderstandest thou by Apocripha ? Apocrypha . Theophilus . Apocripha , signifieth a thing hid , secret or obscure , which hath no sure or certein author : or which is not alowed as are the bokes , to the title is applies & made at , which are not sufferable , but insomuch as their doctrin is confirmable vnto that of Canonicalls , the which ought to be ruled by them . And they haue no firme authoritie but that which those doe giue vnto it . For in steede that we may take a sure foundation and buylding , vppon any place taken out of the Canonicalls , we cannot doe it in those heere , if they haue not alreadye their foundation on the other . They haue not bene called Apocrypha , bicause that it was not lawfull to haue them in ones lybrary , and to reade them with iudgement , for ones profite . For that was not forbidden . But haue taken that name , bicause that they were not of such authoritie , the one should holde them for a sure and infallible doctrine of the church of God : And they were not red and expounded openly in the same , and with such authoritie , as those which without doubt were holden for the certeyne worde of God , to the which we are bounde to beléeue , and to submit & put our iudgement vnder them , not to eleuate it aboue them , or to iudge them by the other bookes , which ought to bée subiect vnto them .

Eusebius .

And wherefore haue some of them more that authoritie then the others ?

Theophilus .

Bicause that of the one we are cert eyne , which are the pure wordes of God : but not of the others , but to the contrary .

Eusebius .

By what meanes ? Is it not bicause the Churche hath allowed them and not the other . Now sith that their authority dependeth of the authority of the church if shee doe receine these here as the Canonicall , & maketh them of equall authoritie , wherefore shall not they bée in the same degree ?

Theophilus .

I doe beleeue that thou doest thinke that the church hath accustomed to legittimate the bookes , as Vnto whom the iudgement of the scriptures do appertcine the Pope doth legittimate his bastardes . The Popishe church may well take in , hande that , but that is not the propertie of the of Iesus Christ . And although she woulde Legitimation . legittimate them , yet they must be taken as bastards legitimated by the Pope , which cannot be notwithstanding borne in lawfull maryage , but do abide alwayes bastards and sonnes of fornication , How can the daughter engender and beget hir Mother , or hir Father . Howe can the The authoritie of the Church . Church giue authoritie to the woorde of God , who of the same receyueth hirs , and of the same is begotten and borne ? Of whome receiueth the Sunne his brightnesse ? Doth hée receiue it of men , whome hee illuminateth and lighteth ?

Eusebius .

No. But on the contrary men of it .

Theophilus .

Is it cléere and shining bicause that men doe iudge and confesse it to bée such ?

Eusebius .

No. But bicause that it is such , the men that doe sée it , and haue the experience are constrayned to acknowledge and confesse it to bée such .

Theophilus .

Thou meanest notwithstandinge that the Sunne should bee cleere and giue light , bicause that men doe thincke it to bée so .

Eusebius .

Thou doest mée wrong to impute vnto mée that which I neuer spake , but altogether contrarye .

Theophilus .

Thou hast sayd it , by other wordes . Whereby thou doest not perceiue thy selfe . For when The authoritie of the scripture thou saydest , that the holy Scripture taketh hys authoritie of the church , thou sayest that men do giue lyght and cléerenesse vnto the Sun. For as Dauid doth wytnesse , the word of the Lord is pure & cléere , that is the light which giueth Psa. 19 c 9 light vnto the eyes , & giueth wisdome vnto babes . It is then certeyne and true , not bycause the Church iudgeth it such , but it iudgeth it such bicause that it is so , and cannot iudge of it otherwyse , no more then he which hath cléere eyes can iudge of the lyght of the Sunne , of whiche the blinde person is not capable . Wherefore hée cannot iudge , no more then the Infidells and reprohate can iudge of the woorde of God , nor allowe it . Then thou mayst by this vnderstand , that the certeynetye , veritie and firmenesse doth not depende vppon mans opinion and iudgement , but vppon the holy Ghost , and of the proper force vertue and effectes by which it doth verifie it selfe , and compelleth the faythfull heartes to allow and receiue it as the lyght of the Sunne doth the eies . For the sheepe doe heare and vnderstand the shepeartes voyce , but not that of the straungers . And all that that the Prophetes haue forshewed and taught , the Apostles in lyke manner , haue bene verified and authorysed by the vertue of him which hath spoken in them , insomuch that all the worlde cannot resist it . Nowe wée cannot saye she lyke of the bookes of the Machabees , chiefely of the seconde . First , for that it is not founde in the Hebrewe , and that the stile of the same witnesseth The seconde bookes of the Machabees . cléerely , that it was first made in Greeke , and was not translated from the Hebrew tongue into the Greeke tongue . We may take it for a certeyne rule , that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet , or man worthy to bee accompted for such a one . For the Prophets haue wrytten in their proper language , to wit , Hebrew , or in the language of the The sangnage of the Prophets Chaldees , sithence the time of the captinite of Babilon . Furthermore , it is easye to knowe , that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Israell into Hierusalem , and the age of Esdras , Nehemias , The last Prophets . Aggeus , Zachary & Malachy , sithence which , wée do not read , that the people of God haue had any Prophet that hath written any thing : nor other bookes , of a certeyne and autenticke authour . Wherefore by . good ryght , this héere is accompted for Apocrypha . And although there were no other reason , for to diminishe his authoritye , but the excuse whiche the authour of the sayde booke made in the ende of his worke , that ought to suffice thée . Reade the laste Chapter and thou shalte sée it by experience . If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the spiryte of GOD , that all that whiche hée hath written , procéeded from him , as the Prophetes and Apostles haue done , wherefore shoulde hée excuse himselfe both of the stile , of The authoritie of the Prophets and Apostles the manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght haue committed ? If hée had bene alwayes inspired with the same spirite , by which the Prophets and Apostles haue spoken , he would haue spoken surely and in the authority of God , as those who without excusinge themselues haue sayd : The Lorde hath spoken it . And Sainct Paul with what authoritie speaketh hee affirming that the Gospell whiche hee hath preached was so certeyne , that although Gal. 1 , b. 8 an Angell came downe from heauen , for to bringe anye other vnto you , he ought not to bée receiued , but accursed . Learne then Eusebius to discerne the bookes of the holye Scripture , form the others : and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall , that seconde booke of the Machabees , but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected , and of which it might serue the Church , for declaration of the Scriptures , bicause of the histories conteyned in the same , whiche doe giue a certeine openinge , for the intelligence of the antiquitie , as the histories of Ioseph doe . Yet neuerthelesse if one marke them well , it shall be easle to iudge , that the first and the second are not all of one authour : not onely by the diuersitie of the stile , 〈◊〉 also bicause that in the second , are reiterated some bistories , and many things which already haue bene intreales ●● in the first , and a great deale better then they are in this . If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Testament , any like place vnto that which thou hast alledged , the argument should haue some colour by the shewe that the other would giue vnto it . But forasmuch as it is alone , his witnesse is not sufficient , as it shoulde bée in the one of the others . For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onely witnesse as The wstnesse of God . by a thousand : where a thousand witnesses of men , without the same of God , ought not to bolde any place in the religion , But sithence , that the superstition of the suffrages & prayers : for the dead hath begunne to haue crept into the Churche , thys booke also hath begunne to take greate authorytie , in suche sorte that it oftener is reade and songe in the Popishe Churche , then those that cont●yned more surer doctrine . And thu oughtest also to vnderstand , that the auncients haue sometime put a difference betweene the Canonical , Apocrypha & Ecclesiasticall bookes , as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded , the Creede the which some doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian : other that it was Ruffin . But whosoeuer if were of them both , they are both of them very auncient , and haue deuyded those bookes after that sorte : Yée must know ( saith he ) that thée be other bokes after the Canonicall , which are not called of the auncients & of our prede●●●●ors Canonicall , but C●●lessasticall : as are the wisdome of Salomon , and the other wysedome , which is called Iesus the sonne of Syrach , the which booke is among the Latins , by that generall tytle called Ecclessasticus , by the which woorde the author of the booke is not named but the quantie of the Scripture . The booke of Toby is of the same order , and of Iudith , and the bookes of the Machabees : the which they would that they should bée all read in the Church , but they would not that they should haue bene settle foorth , for to con●●rme the authoritie of the fayth by them . The other Scriptures , they haue called Apocrypha : the which they woulde not that they shoulde be read in the Churche . Thou 〈◊〉 sée héere most playnelye , howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vnto the Canonicall Scriptures then vnto the Eccleslasticall Scriptures : and vnto the Ecclessastical more then vnto the Apocryph● : but they haue not yet neuerthelesse estéemed those Eccleslassastical ( which they haue many times called apocrypha ) of equall and such authoritie , as the diuine scriptures : nor they haue called them Eccleslasticall for that cause , but bicause that they were in such reputation , that one niyght reade and signe them in the Churche ( the w●●●● was not permitted in the auncient Churche ) or bicause that theyr antiquitie or holynesse of their authours added vnto them a ●yttle more authoritie then vnto the other .

Thomas .

By that accompte Eusebius then shall bée vnweapened of his principall staffe that hée thought to haue .

Eusebius .

If they would after that sort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at theyre pleasure : it is méere folly to disputs with them . For all those which bée not to their mindes shall be Apocrypha .

Theophilus .

If thou wilt not be confen●ed with the reasons by me alledged , go and plead against Sainct Hierome Ad Chroma . dist 5. ca. sancta . and your decrees . If the auncients had not vsed iudgement and wisdome , how many bookes would the hereticks haue brought into the Church vnder the name of the Prophets , Apostles and of their Disciples : The which they haue re●●csed them , following that same rule , which I haue giuen vnto thée : as it appeareth by your decrees , which are a great rolle of them . But I wil yet do more , to the ende I leaue the● not an occasion , to be miscontented with me . I am content , by way of disputation , to put the case that the booke should be autentick & of a diuine authoritie . And although The place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all for Purg●●ory . it were so , it would serue thée yet neuerthelesse nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purga●ory , & that we must offer for the dead , to such intent , and in such sort , as you do make it , And for to declare this vnto thée more plainly , I demaund of thée , for to begin first ou● matter , in what time was that made , which the history conteineth ? was it before the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ , or afterwards ?

Eusebius .

Before .

Theophilus .

Tell me moreouer , was Purgatory before the comming of Christ . the Purgatorye in that time , such as thou beléeuest it is now ?

Eusebius .

There is no doubt of it .

Theophilus .

Sith that it is so , tell mée , what soules went thether ? For eyther it must bée altogether emptie and voide , or else it must be that some went thether , eyther those of the elect & faithfull , or those of the Infidels and reprobate . Now I do not thinke , that thou wilt say , that the Purgatory was for the Infidels and reprobate .

Eusebius .

One may so iudge by that which is written Luc. 16. c. 19. of the wicked rich man .

Theophilus .

Sith then that hell was for the reprobate , it followeth then necessarily , that the soules of the elect shoulde goe into Purgatorye . If it hée so , to what ende serueth the Limbe ? For you The Limbe . doe saye , that all the Patriarches , Prophetes and true faythfull , whiche are departed out of this worlde before the death and passion of Iesus Christe , were there kepte and deteyned , and they coulde not goe into Paradise , vntyll such time as Iesus Christe had satysfied for them . Wherefore I doe conclude , accordinge to your doctrine , eyther that the Limbe and Purgatorye were all one place and lodginge , or else that the one of them two was voyde and supers●uous : or that there was but one , or for to speake the truth , neyther the one nor the other . For if the Limbe were for to receiue the faythfull that dyed in the fayth of the promyse made vnto Abraham , what néede was there anye more of Purgatorye ? bad they not Purgatorye suffycient inough in the Limbes ? Were they not sufficientlye tormented to bée excluded from Paradise , and depryued from the ioyes thereoff , and from the fruytion of the glorye of GOD , as you doe affirme ? For what more greater torment can a faythfull man haue then to bee depryued from suche a good thinge ? That is not onely a Purgatorye , but a very hell .

Eusebius .

I do know , that in hearing thée speake , that thou , which wouldest teache others , art yet in greater ignoraunce , and that thou vnderstandest verye euyll this matter . The Limbe then , was for those which were in such estate , as those are nowe , which haue finished their penaunce , and haue made entire and whole satisfaction for their sinnes in this world , which doe go strayght waye into Paradyse , sauinge that those there cannot yet enter , bicause that the doore was shutte , vntyll that Iesus Christ came to open it , and to breake the gates of Hell.

Theophilus .

Wherefore was the Purgatorye ? Had it in it yet a certeyne other sorte of soules and of an other condytion , then those which went into the Limbes ?

Eusebius .

Yea. For thou mayst well vnderstande , that all the faythfull , which haue procéeded and bene before The reason vppon which Purgatory is builded . the comminge of our Lorde Iesus Christe , haue not all of them bene so holy and so perfect , as the Patriarches and Prophetes . Wherefore it were no reason , that incontinently after they are deade they shoulde receyue as much felicytie as they , wythout they doe first accomplishe and ende their penaunce in Purgatorye , and satysfie for their sinnes : the which they haue not done in thys world , as the holy Patriarches and Prophets haue done : or otherwyse GOD shoulde not bée iuste . For what reason is it , that hée whiche hath lyued in all viees and sinnes all the time of this lyfe vntyll the laste tyme of hys death , in whiche gée hath had repentaunce of hys sinnes , and hath asked mercye of God , shoulde haue no more gréeuous punishment , but should receiue as great reward , as he which al his life time hath serued God faithfully and hath alwayes lyued in holynesse , righteousnesse and innocencie .

Theophilus .

Take héede thou doe not blaspheme God , and doe imurye vnto his grace and mercye . For I doe greatly feare but that thou wilt bée like vnto the brother of the prodigall childe , who was enuious against his Hipocrites enuious of the grace of God Luc. 15. g. 28. Examples of the mercy of God . brother , and murmured against his father , béeing angrye at the gentle receiuing and of the grace and fauour that hee dyd vnto his sonne , whome he had recoured , béeing reduced and brought into the right way : or least that thou be one of the companions of them which were hired to work in the vineyard , which did murmure against the good man of the house , bicause that he did giue as much wages vnto those whom he called at the eleuenth houre , & a little before night , for to work in his vineyard , as vnto those whom hée appointed from the morning which haue borne the burthen and heate of the day . Wherfore dost thou not accuse our Lord Iesus Christ , who hath aunswered vnto that poore theefe who dyd hange vppon the Crosse ●●yth him : This daye shalt thou bée with mée in Paradise ? What good déedes Lu● . 23. l. 4● . had hée done before ? Art thou enuious of the grace which God doth vnto the poore sinners ?

Eusebius .

God forbid . But we must vnderstand , that as God is mercifull , so is hée righteous . And if the théefe which was crucified with Iesus Christ had had that priuiledge , it followeth not therefore , that all haue Priuiledge the lyke , or that they ought to haue it . For as the lawe makers doe say : the priuiledges of a fewe , are not common lawes to all men .

Theophilus .

If that théefe hath receiued so greate goodnesse by one singular priuiledge , I doe aunswere vnto thée further , that none is saued but by priuiledge .

For all wée haue meryted eternall dampnation , of our Saluation by priuiledge Rom. 3. 9. nature . Inasmuch then as wée be saued , that is , thorow a singular priuiledge , which is giuen of God vnto the elect by Iesus Christ , which is not common vnto the reprobate .

Eusebius .

There is yet an other reason , wherefore that théese went straight into Paradise , wythout passinge by the fire and the paines of Purgatorye : that is , bicause that he had alreadye done his penaunce in Payne for satisfaction . this world , and hath satisfied for his sinnes .

Theophilus .

What penaunce or satisfaction coulde hée haue made ? For the theftes and murthers for which hée was hanged on the Gybet .

Eusebius .

But it was the paine that hée endured and suffered , and the death that he hath receiued for his demerites .

Theophilus .

As much did his companion suffer which was hanged on the left hande : but yet neuerthelesse his torments haue serued him nothing at all , and hée dyd not heare such promise of Iesus Christ as the other .

Eusebius .

Bicause that hée dyd not take his death and torment quyetly and patientlye , and hath not beléeued in Iesus Christe and demaunded pardon of hys sinnes as his companion did .

Theophilus .

Thou alwayes commest vnto my compt , and thou shalt hée compelled to confesse that there is nothinge which was the cause of his saluation but the faith which he had in Iesus Christ , and the mercy of God , The only death of Iesus Christ doth satisfie . which hée hath obteyned by the same , without that that God had regard neither to his dignitie or worthinesse , nor vnto his workes , but vnto Iesus Christe his sonne , for whose loue he hath pardoned him , not for the forment and death , which the théese hath suffred , and the satisfaction that he could doe vnto him , but for the forment , death and passion which Iesus Christ hath suffred & the satisfaction that he hath made for him , the which Sainct Cyprian hath Cypr. lib. 4. de bapismo l● . sent 4. dist. 4. sunt . well vnderstanded , of whom the witnes is alleged by the maister of the sentences . For although all the deathes and forments that all men haue euer suffred , Patriarkes , Prophets and Apostles , Martirs and confessors should be put together , they should not be sufficient , for to put out the least sinne in the world . For God doth not take onlye for satisfaction , the torment , but regardeth the worthynes of the person , of which he receaueth the raunsome , the whiche was not found sufficient , but in Iesus Christ . Or otherwise if the torment which man doth suffer , were approued and allowed of God for satisfaction , and cause to auoyd the paines of Purgatory , there shoulde bee no men more happier and blessed then the théeues , murtherers , brigandes and other malefactors , which are executed by Iustice . And there would bee , none which would not but become a théese or murtherer , or to commit some fault worthy of death for to be executed thorow Iustice , to auoide the paines of Purgatory . For if the doctrine of your diuines be true , the fire of Purgatory surmounteth al the paine , that a The greatnes of the paynes of Purgatory . man can suffer in this life , and it is so hot and burning , that the visible and materiall fire of this world , is but as a painted fire in comparison of that same .

Hillarius .

I cannot vnderstand in what place of the holy Dist. 25. ca. Apostolus . Tho. 4. dist. 21. a● . 1. Ric. 4. dist. 20. arg. 2. A●ber . 7. li. com theo . ca. 2. Bona. 4. dist. 18 Plutar. l● . de sera . numi . vind. scripture they haue séene that , I woulde rather beleeue that they haue learned it of Plutarch , who hath witten , that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are so great and so cruell , that there is asmuche difference betwéene them , and those that wee do suffer in our body , and in the flesh , as there is difference , betwéene that which happeneth vnto vs in dreaming , and that which happeneth vnto vs waking : In somuch that all that whiche we doe suffer in this worlde , is but as a dreame in the respecte of the same . Fable of Gregory . Bart. fer. 4. heb. 4. quadrag . Ser , de poen. purg . Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians haue rehersed of Sainct Gregory be true , I shal not be abashed , that hee had rather choose ( when the Aungell did giue vnto him the choyce of two things ) to be in paine and sickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory , bicause that hée prayed for Traianus , and deliuered him from hell . For although that he complained in his Epistles , that hée is so much gréeuid with diseases , and so great dolours , that his life is vnto him nothing but paine , yet neuertheles it is verye casle in comparison to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory .

Thomas .

To what purpose hath the Angell giuen vnto him to choose one of those two paines ? By doing good , ought euill to happen vnto him ? Hath hée fetched out Traianus , from hell against Gods will ? If our Priestes had such a payment , for to drawe soules out of Purgatorye ; I belaue that they would not be very much hotte after their masses .

Hillarius .

It were necessary that sithens they haue begunne the fable , to ende it , for to make it accorde and Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus Verg. Aene. 6. agrée with that of Theseus and Pyrothus , who as the Poetes do witnes are punished in the hells bicause that they woulde take awaye Proserpina maugre the God Pluto .

Theophilus .

Difference beweene the fire of purgatory & of hell . Ric. 4. dist. 20. arg. 2. Bonau●n . 4. dist. 18. Albet . 7. li. com pe. that . ca. 2. Thom. 4. dist. 21. arg. 1. & 3 er . q. 46. ar. 6. That is yet nothing in comparison to that that I haue said . They do kindle that fire more . For they do affirme , that the same of Purgatory , and that of hell is al one , and that there is none other difference , but that the same of hell is eternall touching his office , but the same of Purgatory , is not but as touching his substaunce , bicause that the soules go out some time . Wherefore they do conclude that not onely the paine of Purgatorye is the moste greeuous that euer was , but whiche is more . Thomas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and surmounteth the dolours & torments which Iesus Christ hath suffred in his death and passion . What blasphemy can be more greater ? For what hell can be more truell then that which Iesus Christe hath suffred for vs , when hee take vpon him the cursse due for our sinnes , for to deliuer vs ?

Thomas .

Do they not alledge some place of the holye Scripture , for to proue that ?

Hillarius .

Barl. serm de p●na Purg. example Anto. ● par. sum . Where shal they finde it ? their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and propounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins , of a Frier of that order who appeared vnto a very friende of his , by whom beeing asked of the paines of Purgatorye , aunswered that if all the world and all the visible things were on fire and did burne , yet it could not be compared , to the paine and beate of Purgatorye : bost thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of such Theologians .

Eusebius .

Although that there were no Scripture , & that we had but our naturall sence the which God hath giuen Mans reason the foundacion of Purgatory . vnto vs , yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and necessarie that there be a Purgatorye , in whiche the sinful men may he punished , for those sinnes of which they haue not ended their penaunce . For it is not written with out cause : Nullum malum impunitum : Nullum bonum irrenumeratum . That is , ther is none euil which shal not be vnpanished , nor no goodnes which shal not be vnrewarded .

Theophilus .

Although that those wordes are not reryted in the scripture , after that manner as thou doost receyte them , yet neuertheles . I am content to allow it to be true . I doe not deny , but that God is as iust as he is merciful . The Iustice and mercy of God . For otherwise he could not be God . But we ought to consider , by what meanes he doth exercise his iustice & mercie towards vs . There is no doubt , but the our sinnes do deserue Esa. 9. b. 6 Iohn . 3. d. 34. Rom. 3. 24. Gala. 3. d. 2● . great punishment . And therfore hath he giuen vnto vs Iesus Christ his sonne , & hath deliuered him to death for vs , that our misdéeds should be punished in him , & that he do satisfie for vs to his souereigne iustice , for to obteine of him grace & mercy in his name . Thou seest them that there is none Punishment for sinnes . euil which is not vnpunished , for to satisfie the rightousnes & iustice of god : but ther is difference in the manner of punishing For●● he that hath b●ne the euil beleeueth in Iesus Christ , and hath full hope and trust that thorow his death & passion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remission of his sinnes , thorow that saith , he is the true member of Iesus Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12 Iohn . 15. Gala. 3. ●● Christ , and adopted for the sonne of God . If hee bee a true member of Iesus Christ , and a true childe of God , hée & his sinnes are punished in Iesus Christe , who for that cense , hath borne the iudgement and tursse of God , for all the elect . But if the sinner bee an Infidell , and whiche hath no parte with Iesus Christ , the wrath of God falleth Iohn . 3. d. 36 vppon him and he cannot escape the Iudgement of God , but that his sinne be punished in himselfe , in hell fire . And euen as our euill deedes are punished in Iesus Christ , so are our good déedes rewarded in him , and by him allowed The reward of good deades . of the celestiall Father , which crowneth his good works in vs . For nothing pleaseth him but Iesus Christ his welbeloued sonne , in whom he deliteth , and no workes Mat. 3. ●●● can be found agréeable , but his . For there is no goodnesse but in him . Wherefore if we will haue any good thing in vs , we must séeke ● borrow it of him . And if we will that our works be pleasing vnto God , it is necessary that Iesus Christ do them in vs thorow his holy spirite : or otherwise , the heauenly father cannot allow nor receiue them for good , nor yet giue vnto them reward .

Eusebius .

I doe greately doubt , that in magnifiyng so much the grace and mercy of God , and the efficacie of the death and passion of Iesus Christe , you giue occasion vnto many to doe euill , without euer caring to do any good workes : For if that men haue once this opinion , that they are saued thorow the onelye grace and mercye of God , and that they cannot merite paradise by their good works , what néede they care to do any good déedes if it doth not serue them no more then the euill ?

Theophilus .

I do feare moreouer , that the doctrin which thou holdest , doth induce and leade them vnto that which Purgatory the nourse of sinne . thou sayest For how many hath there bene , who hauing that opinion to satisfie in Purgatorye for their sinnes , haue giuen themselues vnto al vices , during their life , hoping that they will prouide so well to their affaires , that for golde and siluer , they shal be incontinentlye deliuered from the paines of Purgatory after they be dead ? And so by that meanes they did thinke , that it was not néedefull to studye to doe good workes . For they did hope to finde in their purse all that that shoulde bée néedefull for theyr saluation . But for asmuche as it is a question touchinge Good workes . good workes , whom doest thou thinke can doe them best , eyther the seruant which laboreth thorow feare and compulsion , who would doe no laboure if he feared not to be beaten of his master , or if hée hoped not but to receiue a good rewarde : or the sonne , who thorow an entier loue towards his father , and taketh pleasure in none other thing , but to serue and honoure him wel , bicause of the natural loue that he beareth vnto him , and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodnes and benefits that he hath re●●ed and doth receiue daily of him , without any seruile feare , but onelye for the reuerence and good affection that he hath towards him ?

Eusebius .

There is no doubt , that those whiche serue onely for feare to be punished , or for hope of rewarde , cannot serue faithfully nor lawfully : but are as the seruaunts which serue to please the eye , and do good seruice whilest Collo. 3. d. 22. that the master is present : notwithstanding they haue no good will towards him .

Theophilus .

Yet neuertheles those which do follow the Workes , Hipocrites . doctrine , the which thou holdest , are altogether like vnto those here . For either they do giue themselues altogether to their pleasures and delites , hoping that they will satisfie by money for their sinnes , and redéeme themselues ? or if they studie to doé well , they doe it not but thorow feare , as a subiect doth serue a Tyraunt , fearing ●o fall into his hands : or as Merconaries & Hirelings , not for the loue they haue to god , but for the loue they haue to themselues . And so by that meanes , eyther they do make GOD The God of the Hipocrites like vnto a cruel Tyraunt , or to a polling Iudge & théefe , who for money absolueth the euill doers , and as a companion of théeues , taketh his parte of the hootie with them : or els they make themselus god , & doe worship the workes of their handes , sith that by them they do saue themselues , and merite Paradise . Wherefore they haue no néede of Iesus Christ . I demaund of thee , which art but a sinful man , if thou wouldst take for a true friend a man which should do vnto thée seruice only for the feare that he hath of thée , least thou shouldest do vnto him hurt ? or for hope that he should haue to feare thée better , wout which hee would make none accompt of thée , nor would not set by thée ? Eusebius . I would holde him for a true freind of the kitchin , Friendes of the kitchin . which loueth more his belly than me , of whom he is a friend , & not of me .

Theophilus .

And yet neuertheles , if thou dost wel consider the nature of the Hipocrits , & Pharises , who do attribute somuch vnto their workes , thou shouldest finde them of such an amitye towardes God , for whose loue they doe not that they do , but for the loue of themselues : and doe not serue god , but after the manner as the beastes do serue men , or for the feare that they haue to be beaten , or for the nurrishment and foode that they doe receiue . But without staying our selues anye longer vppon that pointe , let vs returne vnto our talke of the Limbe : sith that thou puttest the Limbe for the one , and Purgatory for the other , what difference dost thou put betweene those which were in the Limbe , and those which were in Purgatory , sith that the one and the other , according to your doctrine , were depriued of the fruition of God ? I doe greatly feare , that in the ende thy Limbe and Purgatorie will become hell For if the holy fathers , aswell Patriarkes as Prophets , were depriued from such a goodnes , wherein did they differ from the dampned & And in like Difference betweene the L●● he . Purgatory and hell . manner those whom thou ledgest in Purgatorye , what néed haue they of any more greater torment , or of any other fire , for to torment them ? And what solace can they haue more then the damned , if they were depriued from the loves of Paradise . and yet besides that , to bee deteined in the fire ? Hillarius . But at that time , for that there was no Masse nor papistical Priests , for to pray and do sacrifices for the dead they should continue a long time in those paines & torments . And which is more , sith that in that time , none could enter in Paradise , when they had accomplished the time of their paines in Purgatorye , whether went they , when they departed from thence ? They could not but departe from one hell , for to go into an other , that is to say , from purgatory to the Limbe : where they were compelled to abide alwayes locked fast , in the prisons of Purgatory , vntill the comming of Iesus Christ .

Theophilus .

For to speake the truth , I finde no great difference , betweene hell and those other two lodgings .

Eusebius .

But there is great difference . For these here do hope to come once vnto the eternall felicitie , from the which the dampned are altogether depriued .

Theophilus .

There is then none other difference , but that the one are defeined and kept in hell , and dampned for euer : the others are not but for a time . And so your Limbe , and Purgatory shal be in nothing different from the hell of the Origenistes and Catabaptistes , who were The hell of the Origenists and Catabaptists in this foolish and false opinion , that there is neither man nor diuell dampned perpetually , but that all those whiche are deteyned in hell , after a long space of time , shal be deliuered , & finally all saued .

Thomas .

Now bare they say y● , sith that the holy scripture witnesseth so euidentlye , that the Esa. ●● . g. 24 Mat. 25. d. 46 Mar● 9. 8. 48. Apo. 14. c. ●l . paines of hel are eternall & that our lord Iesus Christ called the hel fire , eternall & inextinguible ?

Theophilus .

What other reasons haue the heriticks , for to fight against the veritie them their humain opinions ? or some place of the holy scripture , depraued & corrupted by their false vnderstanding ? They haue no building or foundation but that it is easie to ouerthrow . But we haue not now to dispute against those olde Origenistes , which are raysed vp againe of the Catabaptistes , the which are already vanquished ynough , but we haue to work against the papistes , whom by good right we may compare vnto those , & cal them new Origenistes aswel as the Catabaptists There is no difference , but that the Catabaptistes are not so much couered and disguised , and that they do rayse vp againe too openly the olde errors and heresies , the which are taken all readye for condempned . But the Papistes haue found an other maske , and an other manner to procéede , by which Sathan in them , hath founde the meanes to redresse and amende that bell of the Origenistes , in dysguising onely a little the building after an other sort . For when all shal be well considered , I knowe not wherein those whom you lodge in the Limbe and Purgatory doe differ , from those whom the Origenistes and Catabaptistes did hold and accompt for dampned : except you will saye , that the paine and hell of the one , continueth more then of the other .

Eusebius .

There is a great deale more . For notwithstanding that al were tormented , yet neuertheles those which were in the Limbe , were a great deale lesse , then those which were deteyned in Purgatory . For there is no fire in the Limbe , and they haue none other paine , sauing that they cannot yet sée the face of God and haue the full ioy & The payne of the Limbe fruition of Paradise , the whiche they doe farye for , much desiring it : which was vnto them a great torment , as vnto euery one which tarieth for the goodnesse that he desireth , and cannot haue it so soone as he would . In like manner those which were in Purgatorye , and are yet at this The payne of Purgatory present , do not suffer so gréeuous torments without comparison , as the dampned that are deteined in hell fire : But they haue yet neuerthelesse more fire then those whiche were in the Limbe .

Theophilus .

Thou shalt be yet compelled to come vnto my sayings . For what other thing may I conclude , by thy wordes , but that there is three helles , betwéene whiche thrée is no difference , but that the one os more cruel then Three helles . the other , as the torments & prisons of the Tyrants are . For Theologians do affirme that there is two sortes of Poena damni . & poena sensus Leo de viim . ser uim sest. mort . paines in Purgatory , to wit , the paine of Dam , and the paine of the sence . By the payne of Dam , they vnderstand the dammage and hurt that the soules doe receiue for the long tarying and let that they haue , to sée the face of God , and to bée in possession of the ioyes of Paradise . By the paine of the sence , they vnderstand the tormentes which the soules doe féele of the fire by the which they are punished . Now iudge , what difference can be . First , what more greater paine can the dampned haue then this héere ? Sith that your Doctors do affirme that the fire of Io. Maio. 4. sent dist. 44. q. 1. hell , and of Purgatory , is all one , as to his substaunce , and that after the daye of the last iudgement , Purgatorye shall bee mingled with Hell , and they shal be but one selfe thing ? Thou canst not heere finde any other difference , sauing that Purgatorye is not a perpetuall hell , neyther an eternall hell fire , but that it hath a certeine ende : and that the Limbe is a halfe Hell. For there is but the paine of Dam , sith that there is no fire . The which yet neuerthelesse your Doctors ds affirme to be so great that it surmounteth all the paines of the world . And for to proue it , they alledge Sainct Augustine , saying . To be an estraunger from the kingdome of God , depriued from the swéetnesse of God , is a paine so great , that ther are no torments that may be compared vnto them . And Chrisostome saith : Many are afrayde of the Bell fire , but I estéeme a paine a great deale greater then the hell fire , that fall from that glorye . Thou doest then see , whether I doe wronge to call the Limbe , Hell. But ther is yet a difference betwéene Barl. serm. de poen. infer . the paines of the auncient fathers , which were deteyned and kept in the Limbe , and the children that are borne dead . For that halfe hell , after your doctrine , is vnto them eternall : the which it was not vnto the auncient fathers . But the better to declare and shewe foorth that matter . I Abrahams bosme . Luc. 16. c. 12 demaund of thée what thou thinckest the bosome of Abraham to be , in which Lazarus rested ? I do not now dispute , whether the example that our Lord propounded of the rich man & of Lazarus , is alledged as a true history , or as a parable . For whatsoeuer it bée , Iesus Christ by the same , declareth & sheweth vnto vs the estate and condition of the elect & reprobate , after this mortal life , & declareth father vnto vs that which we ought to hold & beléeue . He maketh Two wayes onely mention but of two places onely , that is to say , of hel fire , in which the rich man was tormented , & of Abrahams bosome , in which Lazarus was receiued . He putteth not foorth a third place : In like manner when he did send foorth his Apostles to preach , he plainly declared the ther was but two wayes , the broad way which leadeth to destruction , and she narrow way which leadeth vnto life , saying : He that beléeueth Mat. 7. b. 13. Luc. 13. c. 24 Marc. 16. c. 16. and is baptised , shall be saued : But he that beléeueth not , shal be dampned , Wherefore I would gladly know of thée , what thou vnderstandest by Abrahams bosome : And whether thou doest take it for Purgatory or for the Limbe . For thou canst not vnderstand it of hell , nor of any place that is nigh vnto it : sith that Abraham aunswered the rich man , that there is a great space set betwéene those that are in Abrahams bosome , and those which are in hell Luc. 16. f. 26. with the rich man , that it is impossible the one can neither go nor come from the one of the places to the other .

Eusebius .

By Abrahams bosome I vnderstand the place , in which were receiued the Patriarches , Prophets & other holy men which dyed in the faith of Abraham , the father of the beléeuers , Gene. 1. 13. 16 Gene. 15. b. 6 Rom. 4. a. ● Gal. 3. 2. 6 & in the hope of saluation & benediction the they ought to receiue by Iesus Christ our Lord , the true séede of the blessing promised vnto Abraham .

Theophilus .

Then thou doest then take it for the Limbe . For Limbus in the Latin Limbus . Signification of the Limbe tongue , signifieth the hem or gard of a gowne or of any other garment .

Hillarius .

Yea , in déed , whosoeuer wil beléeue the witnes of al good Latin authors , as Virgile and other Aene. 2. 4. like , which often times do vse it , and not in any other signification . But peraduenture the papistical Theologians would héere vse their accustomed licence , which is to peruert The lycence of the Theologians & marre all tongues and languages : giuing vnto them an other sence a signification , & to make a new one , as the Iargon of the beggers & Ostirians which none vnderstandeth Pedlers French but themselues .

Theophilus .

It must néedes be so : or els that they dooe take the word of Limbe by a Metaphore , comparison and stmilitude , for extermitie : as farre as I can iudge , as well I by thy words , before alledged and allowed , as by those of you Theologians . For in disputing of those internal habitations , they confesse by their bookes , that it is vncertein , which is néerest vnto hell , either the Limbe or Purgatory . As touching the Limbe of the fathers , they affirme assuredly , that in the time when it was , it was situated in a place more higher . And as touching that of the children , they say , that after the latter iudgement , it shall bée in the earth a little aboue the same : and hell shal be in the bottom : and Purgatory shall be then all one with hell .

Hillarius .

I would gladly knows what meatinges and measurings they vse in those lowe territories , & whether they doe measure the landes & countryes , by cubites , elles , rodes , miles and other lyke measures , such as the Geometrians and Astronomers haue . At the leastwise they are more skilfull in such Arte then euer they were . For they doe measure the regions and countries , which yet are not . But for a ful resolution , we can conclude none other thing by their Geomitry and discription , but that purgatory and the Limbe are the confins , or the suburbes either of hel , or of Paradise .

Theophilus .

If the Limbe of the fathers were The suburbs of hell and of Paradise . one of the suburbes of hell , it must bée that the citie should be a great way off from the suburbes . For Abraham cléerely witnesseth that there is such a distaunce , from his bosome , the which thou taketh for the Limbe , vnto hell in which the rich man was , that it is impossible to passe from the one to the other , bicause of the horrible goulfe and depth which is betwéene them both .

Hillarius .

Peraduenture wée may deceiue our selues . For how doest thou know , whether they do pronounce Limbe , for Lembe . For Lembe in Lembus lembe . Plaut. in Marca & Bacch . Liut . li. 8. bel . punt . & 1. ab vng. Gene ● d. 23. 1. Pet. 3. d c Greeke and Latine signifieth a little ship and very swift : or a gally . Wherefore it may be , that they do meane , that the auncient fathers , were detained & kept in that Lembe as in a ship , as Noe was in his Arke , to the end they should not fall into that déepe lake of Hell , and be drowned in the goulfe of those deepe riuers , of which we haue spoken off so much . For all their ease goeth by poetical faynings . The Limbe of the Infants But howsoeuer they will take it . I dare proue it by the olde men of our countrey , that it is most lykest to be true that the Limbe , at the least the same of the poung children , ought rather to be in the suburbes of Paradise , then of hell . For they doe bolde for certeyne , that the younge children , which for wanting of exterior and outward baptisme , are sent vnto the Limbe , hearing from thence where they are , the ioyes of Paradise , but they cannot sée them : the which is vnto them a meruaylous torment . Neuerthelesse the good olde men woulde not haue spoken so assuredly , if they had not heard it so preached of the great Theologians and Doctors . Nowe sithence that from the Limbe , the young children do heare the ioyes of Paradise , reason declareth vnto vs that the Limbe ought not to be farre off from paradise , but that it may haue only some wal , or a certein vayle betwéene them both which may hinder and let their sight , either that they do make a great noyse in paradise : or else that the eares of the soules are merueylously sharpe and attentius .

Eusebius .

Sith that the Doctors doe say that it is situated & builded in a place more higher , I doubt not but that it approcheth nigh vnto Paradise .

Hillarius .

In stéede then that Virgile placeth the Limbe of the young children at the entering in to hel , thou wilt make it at the entering in of Paradise . Aene. 6.

Theophilus .

Sith that wée doe alreadye esloyne and make our selues so farre from Hell , I doe greatly feare , that in the ende thy Limbe and thy Purgatorye will not be sounds in Paradise . And therefore I demaund of thée againe , to knows whether that the bosome of Abraham be a place of voluptuousnes and pleasure , . or of sorrowfulnes & horror . And whether that the young children of the Hebrews A question of the infants of the Hebrewes dead without circumcision Gene. 17. b. 10. & Iewes , which died before the viii . day , which was deternined & appointed for to circumcise them , did go into the bosome of Abraham with the patriarches ? either into Purgatory : or into hell , or whether they had an other Limbe a varie .

Eusebius .

Thou doest propound vnto mée many questions together , to the which I cannot answere according to the order which thou hast kept in propounding them . For I will beginne with the latter , afterwardes I wyll descend vnto the others . As touchinge that which thou demaundest of the saluation of the young Infantes of the Hebrewes , I doe aunswere as the Master of the sententes , euen so as of the children of the Christians , which dyed before baptisme .

Theophilus .

Thou wilt then say , that they doe perish , The opinion of Lumbard . ●● sent. 4. dist. 1. St vero . Dist. 4. ca. necesserum . & ca filius . ●ka . de sacra . both the one and the other ? For the master of the sentences vseth this proper worde , saying : that it is most true that they perish . If they doe perish , they are then dampned : the which I am sure thou wilt not confesse . For you doe put a difference betwéene the dampned and them . Yet neuerthelesse you holde them not for the children of God . And therefore you denye vnto them to bée buryed in the Churchyard . And therefore that opinion of the master of the sentences hath séemed to the other scholastical Doctors too rigorous , which do witnesse that they holde it not commonly Vnde versus ex chan. de sacram Nullus aborttn . us , null●● niss fonte renatus : Infra sancta de● debet sepel●r● vt an lex . in that place , but they take it for an error , the which they haue adioyned with the others which they haue heaped vp together from their bookes .

Eusebius .

If he did vnderstand and meane that they went into Hell , I wyll not followe his sentencs . But I beléeue that he meaneth that they go no other where but to the Limbe .

Theophilus .

But was that Limbe whether they went , the very same , in which the Patriarches were shut in , or whether they had a chamber seperated from their lodging ?

Eusebius .

I beléeue that the young children haue their Limbe seperated from the others : or otherwise they should haue had no more paine then the others which haue bene circumcised : sith that they cannot yet enter into Paradise , but are all stayed in the Limbe .

Thomas .

I thinke , that you do not kepe the promise which you haue made neither on the one side nor on the other , & that you abide not within the circuit & field , the which you haue determined for your Ioustes . For you are bounde to flight by the onelye authoritie of the worde of God . And yet neuerthelesse , it is alredy a good while , that I haue heard any thing of you but the opinions of the Doctors . Wherfore I would gladly ( Eusebius ) that you would follow that matter , and I desire that thou wouldest proue by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmest of the young children dead without circumcision & baptisme .

Eusebius .

Doest thou thinke that I speake without the Scripture ? the which I wil not yet alledge with my gloses and expositions : But for to giue more weight and credite vnto my probations , I would thou shouldest beare the witnesse of them by the mouth of the auncient Doctors , namely , of the worshipful Beda , speaking after this manner . Hée which now cryeth Beda . Sant. 4. dist. 1. S● vero . Iohn . ● . a. ● . terribly & healthfully by his Gopell : except a man be borne of water & the holy spirite , he cannot enter into the kingdome of God . The very same he cryed by his lawe : the soule of him whose foreskinne of his flesh is not circumcifed , Gene. 17. c. 14 shal perish from his people : bicause he hath broken my testament . Beholde a cléere probation , as wel for the children of the Iewes , as for those of the Christians .

Theophilus .

How vnderstandest thou that threatning against those which were not circumcised ? For God hath prefired eight dayes , for to circumcise the young children . Nowe if they doe dye before the eight day , and the terme prescribed of God , doest thou thinke that the saluation of those children be in daunger ?

Eusebius .

The word of God excepteth neither little nor great , but speaketh generally to all men .

Theophilus .

But there could haue bene no fault , but in the transgression of the commaundement of God . Sith then that God had determined for them the viij . day , wherefore ought the young children to perish , which died before that terme ? For sith that God had lymitted the day . I doubte not but that those who should haue circumcised them before the day prefired should do contrary vnto the commaundement of God .

Eusebius .

I accorde vnto thée therein , in those which should haue done that without necessitie , and Sent. 4. dist. 1. S● vero . without the daunger of the death of the young childe . But I beléeue , that when there should haue bene any daunger they might circumeise them before that terme .

Theophilus .

And I beléeue the contrary . For I can proue my reason by the Scripture , the which thou canst not doo thine . If it were so then as y● sayst , it should follow that god was not well aduised , when he made that ordinaunce , and that the Isralites shoulde be wiser by right : and that hée should doe great wrong vnto them , sith that he hath not aduertised them of that doing , and that he gaue none exception . It followeth in lyke manner . if the circumcision had bene so necessary vnto saluation , that all the woemen children and woemen should perish , sith that they dyed all without circumcision : the which yet neuerthelesse no man dareth to affirme , sith that there hath bene so many holy women , of whom the holy Scripture beareth vs witnes .

Eusebius .

It is easie to reproue thy consequence . For in the institution of the circumcision , it is spoken expressely of the males , not of the females .

Theophilus .

The law yet neuerthelesse sayth , euery soule , euery person . Wherefore if we must take the wordes by rigor , without a fitte interpretation , wée must comprehend the females , if there had bene none other places , which doe giue vnto vs the intelligence & vnderstanding of the lawe : besides that the institution of the same doth sufficiently declare , that it extendeth not vnto the women . Then if the women be exempt , bicause that the lawe bindeth them not , so are the Infants which dye before the eight day . For they are not bound by the law before the terme : or otherwise , God would not haue held his peace , sooner then of ther thinges which were not of so great importance . But when the eight day was come , I doubt not , that if thorow contempning , negligence and dispising , the circumcision had bene omitted , but that the Lord Rebellion and dispising the commaundement of God . would haue bene greatlye offended : not by reason of the signe , but thorowe the rebellion and dispisinge of his woorde , the which hee taketh in greate displeasure : as he hath shewed the example of him that gathered sticks on the sabboth day . It seemed that the fault was not great , 〈◊〉 . 15. d. ●● nor such as though he had committed a murther . And yet neuertheles god punished him with a cruel death , as though he had committed the greatest crime in the world . It is then an other thing to haue omitted any ceremony commanded of God , thorow negligence , dispising & rebellion , or to haue left it vndone , thorow necessitie , or bicause that it was not possible . For when there is let , such that man cannot auoyde Necessitie it , and that this minde and will was good , and hath trauayled as much as hée can for to execute it . I doe not beléene that god imputeth the fault vnto him vnto whom hée was not bounde . For the saluation of men consisteth in the alliaunce which the Lord hath made with vs , by the which doth the small and greate are receiued and ioyned together in the company and fellowshippe of the people of God . We doe not denye , but that that alliaunce is signed and sealed by the sacraments , and that the baptisme is but the signe and seals among the Christians , as the circumcision was amonge the Iewes . But it followeth not therefore that it is firme and certeine inough without that signe and seale . Wherfore there is no doubt , but that those which do shut vp the kingdome of heauen vnto the infants for want and lack of the signe , do vnto them great wrong , and do béely the promises of God , which by them haue pronounced them to be his , before that they were borne , saying : that he is our God and the God of our children . And therfore those which do make that outward baptisme Gene● . 17. 2. ● so necessary vnto saluation , what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchauntments , attributing vnto the material & corruptible elements that which apperteineth vnto the only vertue of God , & wherto serueth it ? Wherefore we may wel know the error and ignorance of the scholastical doctors , which haue iudged that baptisme Iul● . 4. sent. necessary vnto saluation . For which cause they haue also permitted and establyshed , that the woemen might and ought to baptise in tyme of necessitie . But the auncient Patriarches an holy Prophetes were not in that superstition : and were not ignoraunt of the vertue and efficacie of gods promise and allyaunce , nor of the reasons by mée alledged : or otherwise the Israelites should haue greatly fayled , and chiefely Moses , which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God , to Circumcision deferred haue dwelled at the least , the space of fourty yeres , sithens the departing from Aegypt , vntil the entring into the land of Chanaan , without circumcising the children . Yet it is to be beléeued , that during that time , many dyed , without being circumcysed : and although none had dyed , did it not séeme rightly , that Moses , and all the other Israelites did against the ordinance of god : sith that they executed it not at the day appointed ?

Thomas .

Is it true that they haue abode so long time without circumcising the children ?

Theophilus .

If they had bene circumcised , it shoulde not haue bene written , that Iosua caused them to bee circamcised , after that they were entred into the land of Chanaan . Iosua . 5. 2. 2 But by that example those holy men do shew vnto vs , how we ought to vnderstand the matter of the exterior sacraments . For notwithstanding that it is written of the Genes. 17. 2. 7 Rom. 4. b. 11. circumcision : This is mine alliaunce with your generations by an euerlasting ordinaunce : and that the bay of the giuing and receiuing hath bene limitted , yet neuerthelesse they haue well vnderstanded , that that sacrament was a publike ceremony , for to witnesse the allyaunce of God betwóene that people , and in the Iewish Churche , as the Exo. 13. b. 12 Pascal Lambe and their other sacraments . Wherfore when they had iuste and lawfull lette , and that they had not the time , and place , and other things requisit to theyr ceremonies , they haue made it no great conscience to omit them , & did not thinke that therby their saluation should be in daunger , for that they dyd knowe that it came not thorow their negligence and dispising of God . As they had S●auation with out exteriour sacraments then the females saued thorow fayth , and the spiritual and interior circumcision , without carnal and exterior circumcision , euen so did they the males , knowing that they were comprised in the aliance of God , by the which , of his pure grace & mercie , he graunteth saluation vnto his elect : the which he giueth through his holie spirite , as it pleaseth him , aswel with out sacraments as with sacraments as it appeareth in Cornelius & those which were in his house , which haue receiued the holie Ghost before they were baptised of S. Peter . Cornellus . Act. 10. f. 44. But yet they neuerthelesse did not dispise the exteriour ● outward baptisme , although that they were alreadie baptised by the holy Ghost For y● man should be verie proud , which Honour vnto the sacraments . Daniel . 9. a would dispise the baptisme ordeyned by Iesus Christ , sith that he himselfe , which is the holy of the holyest , who alone can sanctifie the sinners , & baptise with the holy Ghost & with fire , did not dispise the same of S. Iohn Baptist . But if the Mat. 3. c. 13 elect , aswel little as great , which haue ben among the Gentiles The gentiles saued without circumcision Ion. 35. 3. & 4 4. Reg. 5. a. d 14 4. Reg. 24. a Iob. 43. & Panims , haue bene saued without exteriour circumcision , as it appeareth in the Niniuites , Nahaman , Iob , Nabuchodonosor & other like , which haue had knowledg of God , & haue had their recourse vnto his mercie , wherefore shal the same priuiledge be denyed vnto those that be hath , not only elected through his eternall election , belonging vnto all his seruants , but also he hath giuen vnto them the witnesse by the exteriour sacraments , if they had such lettes & excuses , & as reasonable as the Gentiles and Panyms could haue ? For why were not the elect which were among the Panims accused , in being not circumcised , but bicause that they were not in the land of Israel , nor in the visible church , & among the people which he had chosen , vnto whom he commaunded such things . If they had bene among the Israelites , and that they might haue communicated with them , it had bene requisite to be circum●●sed , and to vse the same sacraments . But when they were in a place , in which they had not that exteriour mym●re , nor could not haue it , the Lorde was contented with the meanes that it pleased him to giue vnto thé . Now if such necessitie happened vnto the Israelites , I doubt not , but that the obli●ation of the lawe hath ceased , when the causes , for which it was giuen are ceased : and the spirituall circumcision of the heart , suffiecth for it selfe & for the exterior , & the spirituall sacrifices , for the material . For when they were in the wildernes , & that they must be readie euery day to remoue their host & houshold stuffe euery houre , when God commaunded them they did well Iudge , that God woulde not that they should be murtherers of their young children , whom they could not circumcise , but that they would be very sick & in daunger of drath , if they had not had time & place to looke well vnto them , as we may presume , by the Sichemytes , who were so sicke after Sichemites Genes. 34. d. 26 their circumcision , that they could not defende themselues against the two sonnes of Iacob . And therfore Moyses hath well considered , that the circumcision was made for man & Mat. 12. a 1 Mar. 2. d. 27 Luc. G. a. 5 Iohn . 7. c. 22 not man for the circumcision , as he writeth of the sabboth . And also that the people were not in place , where they might haue their church garnished & bewtified as it ought to be . Then if the Iewes , which had such expresse commaundement had verie wel such dispensation & exception , shall we put the Christians & their young children in worse condition then the Iewes ? I cannot marueil too much , of the question which the Theologians made , to wit , whether we ought to accompt The question of the Theologians Gers in Flo. de baptis ca de t●s na de con. dist. 4. ca. ad . lunina 30. q. 1. & take an Infant to be baptised , which for want of water should be cast into a well , in pronouncing the sacramentall words , which apperteine to the substaunce & forme of the sacrament ? Upon which many Canonists & Theologians answered that he was : & said that the same hath ben some times done . Although that there are other of diuerse opinions , & which do not take such an Infant for to be baptised . Hillar. If I were the Iudge in the cause , I would condemne to death , as an homicide , him that should so cast away & kil the infant .

Theophilus .

We may wel know by such questions & theological resolutions , of what spirit the doctrine which thou mainteinest Euseb. proceedeth , the which putteth such necessitie in the exterior baptisme , that those which doe vpholde and followe it , are constrayned , euen to murther the Infauntes : or at the least , they are in doubt and perplexitie , eyther to kill them or drowne them after that sort , or to suffer them to die , doubting that they are lost and reiected of God . I am much abashed , how God is become more cruell in this time of grace and mercy , towards the children of the Christians , after the manifestation of Iesus Christ his sonne , then he The condition of he children of the christians . hath bene towards the children of the Iewes , before his comming .

Eusebius .

What is hée , that saith that God is more cruell towards the children of the Christiane , then towards the children of the Iewes ?

Theophilus .

Thou , and those which doe follow the doctrine which thou vpholdest & mayntainest . It is most true , that you doe not speake it openly , but your doctrine importeth no lesse . For what rigor should God doe , against the little Infants of the Christians , if for want of being w●tte with a little water , they were depriued eternally from the Ioyes of Paradise ? I haue alredy sufficiently proued , that the children of the Iewes , were not bound vnto suche necessitie : although that the commaundement of the circumcision giueth an expresse terme , the which is not in the baptisme : wherein then ought the children of the Christians to be more culpable , then those of the Iewes ? If it hath pleased god , to send vnto the mother , any aduersitie , or sicknesse , whiche was the cause that shée hath brought foorth hir child before hir ful time , what fault can be in the child ? and what consolation doth your doctrine bring vnto the poore mother , being alreadie sufficiently scourged and afflicted of the hand of God , to make hir beleeue that hir childe is condempned vnto perpetuall exile , and banished from Paradise for euer ? And that hee is detayned in the Limbe , in the which without ceasing hee curseth Father and mother ? At the least wyse the Carhards haue preached and perswaded them so .

Thomas .

Yea ; I haue heard them preach more ouer : that is to say , that it were better that a Towne , a Ceuntry , or a kingdome were drowned , then an Infaunt shoulde dye without baptisme .

Theophilus .

If the Infant did come vnto the age of discretion , and that hee despisoth the baptisme , I would not excuse his infidelitie and rebellion . Or if the father & mother , thorough their negligence , dispising & infidelitie , haue made none accompt to baptise their child , I would not also excuse them , but that they should yeld them selues greatly culpable before God , & worthy of greeuous punishment . But I will not , yet neuerthelesse therefore , iudge rashely of the saluation of the childe . For GOD 2. Tim. 2. c. 19 knoweth those that are his . And man hath not power to danipue , him whome God woulde haue saued . And if it hath not pleased God to shewe that grace and fauour vnto the Father and Mother , that they cannot sée their childe aliue , for to offer and present him vnto him and to his Churche by the baptisme , wherefore shall hée vse such furor towards that poore Infant and the Parents , which are already ynough desolate and without comfort ? What iniury doe you vnto Iesus Christe ? These Infants borne dead shoulde not haue great occasion to blesse his comming , nor to sing with those which haue receiued him , when he entred into Hierusalem : Blessed be the sonne Mat. 21. a 9 Mare 11. b. 10. Luc. 19 f 38. of Dauid , which commeth in the name of the Lord. They should haue hadde more iust occasion to cursse and detest him , sith that in steede to amende their condition , hée hath put them in worfe estate then the Iewes were before his comming : You cannot denye that absurditie and inconuenience , if you will mainteine your doctrine truely , the which declareth it selfe altogether contrary , to the doctrine of the gospell , full of all consolation , in stéede of which your doctrine bringeth but desolation and despaire . Hillarius . I can speake by experience . For I haue knowen holy wo●men , walking in true simplicitie of heart and great feare of God , which were so troubled in their conscience , bicause that such inconueniences happened vnto them , and that they were so perswaded , that with much a doe , one could finde any meanes to comfort them and set their conscyence at rest and in quiet : what soeuer things 〈◊〉 say vnto them . Although that one tolde and affirmed vnto them , that our Lady of Lausanne shewed grace vnto the Infant , and that those which were present did witnesse vnto them of the goodly myracle that she had done in rayāng to life the Infant for to baptise it being dead , afterwardes did put him in the graue , yet neuerthelesse all that coulde not assure them : and they coulde not be at rest in their conscience , vntill such time as thorough the preaching of the Gospell , they were deliuered from those false oppinions of Caphards and deuillishe doctrines .

Theophilus .

That is that which sathan and the false prophets do desire , the consciences shoulde be troubled & desolate : for then gaine they most . They haue of men that they desire : & their fishing is best in troubled water . Eusebius . Thou hast concluded that according to our doctrine it should followe , that Iesus Christ shoulde haue impaired the estate of the Christians . But wherein ? For those of the Iewes shal no more enter into Paradise , then those here .

Theophilus .

If they went into Abrahams bosome , by the which thou vnderstandest the Lymbe , there was no more greater punishment for them , then for the others which were circumcysed : sith that all doe goe thither indifferently : as I haue sufficiently shewed vnto thee . Afterwards those which then were in the Lymbe , hoped to be deliuered , the which is denied vnto the poore children of the Christians . Wherefore it should followe , that Iesus Christ shoulde rather come for to showe and bring vnto them the wrath and iudgement of God , then his grace and mercy . Furthermore , those which were in Abrahams bosome , were not without hauing some taste Consolation and comfort in Abrahams bosome and perticipation of the Ioyes of Paradyse : as it appeareth plainely , by the wordes of Abraham , answering vnto the rich man after this manner : Thou hast had pleasure in this worlde . Wherefore thou must howe suffer , Luc. 10. f. 25. and that the chaunce be tourned . And contrariwise Lazarus hath suffered greate tribulations and iniseryes . Wherefore nowe it is meete that hée bee at rest and ioy . Thou canst not denye but that these wordes are true . If they bée true , thou art constrayned to confesse , that in Abrahames bosome is consolation , rest and ioy . And howe can these thinges be , out of the kingdome of GOD , Rom. 14. c. 17 which is righteousuesse , peace , and ioye in the holye Ghost ?

Eusebius .

I haue not agréed to thée that the children of the Iewes , being deade without Circumsition , should go vnto the Lymbe of the fathers , but into another .

Theophilus .

It behoueth then to forge Lymbes . But where is the witnesse of the Scripture , for to prooue the same ? And do the children of the Christians go straight way vnto the Lymbe of the auncient fathers ?

Eusebius :

No.

Hillarius .

Then there is presently a chamber to heyre .

Theophilus .

Doest thou not knowe into what dreams and foolishnesse that doctrine doth leade you ? Truely I am ashamed . Wherefore I pray thée , that thou do holde thy selfe content with that that I haue aunswered vnto thée : and that nowe thou do come vnto the question which I haue propounded vnto thee , to wit , what difference thou puttest betwéene the bosome of Abraham and Paradise ?

Eusebius .

I do not meane to passe thy question without aunswering vnto it . But thou lettest slippe the principall obiection which I haue made vnto thee , without hauing satisfyed mee therein . Wherefore I would haue the resolution before thou doest escape mée . Howe may wée then vnderstande that which Iesus Christ hath said ? Except that a man be borne a newe of water and of the Iohn . 3. a. 5 Spirite , he cannot enter into the kingdome of GOD . Doth he not by those wordes openly declare , that the baptisme of the water is necessarie vnto saluation ? And Whether baptisme with water be necessary to saluation that he which shall not be baptised with water , cannot enter into she kingdome of heauen . For he hath not onely sayde : hee that shal be borne a newe of the Spirite , but he hath also added , the water , for to declare that the one and the other are requisit . I confess● that the water without the spirit suffiseth net : and that the vis●●l● 〈◊〉 , without faith , cannot saue . For it is first sayd●●●● th●● 〈◊〉 afterwards there is added , and is baptised shall bee saued . But I cannot vnderstand , Marc 16. c. 16. but that the baptisme of the water is in like manner necessarie vnto saluation . Or I know not to what ende Iesus Christe pr●tended by those wordes , that hee hath aunswered vnto 〈◊〉 .

Theophilus .

Before we do passe any farther , note d●●ygently , that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath sayed : Marc. 16. c. c. 16. He that beléeueth and shal be baptised shal be saued . Yet neuerthelesse in the contrary proposition which followeth he hath not re●terated the baptisme . He hath not saide : he that beléeueth not and shall not be baptised , shal be condempned : But hath made only mention of the faith and of the beléeuing , shewing that without the same , none can be deliuered from condemnation : the which he hath not affirmed of the baptisme . And yet neuerthelesse he speaketh there of the outward and visible baptisme : And not only of the same of the young children , but of the ●lde and greate ones , vnto whom the apostles were sent for to preach the Gospell . Now iudge , if Iesus Christ hath not required the visible baptisme of the greate ones , as necessary vnto saluation , how wil he require it of the young children ? I will geue none occasyon vnto any man , by my wordes , to despyse the Sacraments . For thou knowest already what sentence I haue giuen against those that do despise it . But I do●●eane an● sa● that if any good man were , eyther among the Turkes , or among the Idolaters and Infidels , which had knowledge of the gospel & true faith in Iesus Christ , and that it was not possible for him to bee baptised , I cannot beléeue , that he should be dampned for lacke of a little water : sith that he hath the principall , to witte , the faith : or otherwise , the water shoulde haue more vertue & efficacie , then the bloud of Iesus Christ or at the least as much . And the Priest which administreth the baptisme , should haue as much power as Iesus Christ himselfe . For it should follow , that euen as the water , or the Minister in like manner , can do nothing without the spirit & bloud of Iesus Christ , that Iesus Christes spirit also , nor his bloud could doe any thing without the water and the Minister . And so Iesus Christ and his espirit should be as much subiect vnto the Minister and the water , as the water and the Minister vnto them : And so consequently , his grace & mercy shall be bound vnto the corruptible elements & subiect Saluation and health bound vnto the elements vnto men . After that manner Iesus Christ should bée no more a true God , nor a true Sauiour . And so it is easy to iudge , that such doctrine procéedeth not of God , sith that it ●●pugneth euidently the grace of God : the iustification of faith , and the annalogy of the sa●ie , and bo●●● ouerturne altogether the mistery of the redeption made by Iesus Christ : The which thing , not onely the auncient Doctors , but also Sent. 4. dist. 4. Sunt . the Scholasticals and Questionaries haue wel perceiued , namely the master of the sentences , which proueth by good Saluation with ou● visible baptisme De ciuit . Dei. li. 13. ca. 7 De con. dist. 4 baptismi . De vni bap. ●● . 4 li. 4. de bap. glo . de cons. dist. 4. b●ptism● . & Cypris . Baptisme of de●●otion Vnde versus ex Io. chan de sacra . Indan●●●rreus , contritus ad ●● . mina templi . Si tibi defuerint aqua , presbyter & moriatur . reasons , and by the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Church , that some are iustified & saued without baptisme , amongest whom saint Augustine comprehendeth all those which are dead , and haue suffered martyrdome for the con●●●●ion of Iesus Christ . In like manner the authoritie of Cyprian is sette foorth by the master of the sentences , by the which he witnesseth , that the saith , the repen●aunce and conuers●on of the heart doth recompence and suffice for baptisme vnto those that haue not the time , nor place for to receiue it , & they doe call it baptisme of 〈◊〉 . And for confirmation of this , he ioyneth to the example of the thée●e which was crucified next to Iesus : the which saith he was not crucified for the name of Christ , but for his demerits and wicked déedes : And he did not suffer bicause ●e beléued , but in suffering he beléeued . It is then declared in that thee●e how much sayth a●ayleth , without the Sacrament of visible baptisme : The which the Apostle sayth : The beléefe of the heart iustifieth , and Firmiter in Cristum credens saluabitur ille . Rom. 10. b. 9 to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man safe . But then hée doth accomplish it inuisibly , when the necessitye shutteth vp and hideth the Sacrament of baptisme , not the dispisinge of the religion . Hee may haue some kinde of baptisme , where he shall not haue couersion of the heart . And the conuersion of the heart maye bée in some , without hauing receiued baptisme : But it cannot be ther where baptisme is dispised : and we must not in no wise call that conuersion of the heart vnto God , when the sacrament of De con. dist. 4. c. baptismi . Sent. 4. dist. 4. God is dispised . Be holde the witnesse , the whiche vppon that matter Gratian alledgeth in his booke of decretalls , and the master of the sentences , taken of Cyprian , & addeth the same of Saint Ambrose , touching the Emperour Valenti●ian , who dyed without baptisme , of whom he saith : Valentinian . Ambro. de obit. Valent. I haue lost him whom I ought to haue regenerated . But yet neuerthelesse hée hath not lost the grace , the which hée required . Now if we ought to haue such confidence and trust of the health and saluation of the great and olde men which coulde not haue the baptisme , by a more stronger reason we ought to haue it of the young Infants . For if they be of Gods elect , it is in his power to baptise them in their mothers belly by his holy spirit , & to sanctifie them , as it is written of Iacob , of ●eremy , Sainct Iohn Baptist , Gene. 25. c. 22 ●ere . 1. ● . 5 Lu● . 1. f. 64 Rom. 10 Gal. ● . c. 15 & of Saint Paul , Eusebius . How can we then absolue the proposition of Iesus Christ ? For it is generall , and exclusiue without excepting any person .

Theophilus .

As much may I say of that that he hath said of his flesh and of his bloud , speaking in this manner : verely , verely I say vnto Io●●s . 6. f. 33 you , except ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud , ye shall not haue life in you . Doth not that proposition counteruail● as much , as if he had sayd : whosoeuer shall not eate my flesh and drinke my bloud , shall not haue eternall life ? none can denie the same . It followeth then , that all the younge children are dampned and all those which doe not communicate in the Sacrament of the supper : if the Popish doctrine bée true , that Iesus Christ is really in the hoast , and that wée must there eate hys flesh and drinke his bloude , after the manner as they haue taught vs . It shall not be then no lesse necessary to keepe the consecrated hoastes , and of the Gods in the boxe , for to communicate to the little children , & to giue vnto them the Sacrament of the Euchariste , as the same of baptisme . For the wordes of Iesus Christ doe vrge no lesse in the one of the places then in the other . And if thou doo thinke , that there is great difference ; I wil shew vnto thée easely , that many among the auncients , haue perceiued & iudged it to be so as I say : or otherwise , in the time of Charlemaine they woulde not haue kept the Eucharistia , for to giue it vnto the little children , when they were sicke , if they had not esteemed the thing very necessary . Yet neuerthelesse it is written in the booke of Ansegisus , Abbot of Liege , that the Ansegisus . same was done in that time there , and reciteth the canon which was made . But yet at this day that errour continueth among the Bohemians and Morauians , the which Error of the Bohemians and Morauians yet neuerthelesse the Papists themselues doe not allow : no more then that which S. Cyprian & Origene did , which did distribute the supper vnto young children , when their fathers The supper giue to infants by Cyprian & Origen and mothers brought them in their armes , in comming to communicate the same . And they gaue vnto them not onely the breade , but also the cup. Now let vs thinke if already such errors were about the sacraments in that time there , what may chaunce afterwards . For Cyprian reigned about the yeare after the death and passion of Iesus Christ two hundreth and fiftie . Those worthy men would not haue so much attributed vnto the Sacraments , if they had not so much taken to the rigor and to the letter the words of Iesus Christ . Of the like beginning came vp the error of those which estéemed & thought the he , which after that he was baptised , & hauing once receiued the supper , could neuer be damned , or at the least , should be once delyuered from damnation , bicause that Iesus Christ hath said : I am that liuing bread that came downe from heauen : if Iohn . 6. f. 5 anyman eate of this bread , hée shall liue for euer . They vrge vpon the letter , & said that Iesus Christ could not lye , which hath promised the same . Yet neuertheles Sainct Augustine rebuketh & confuteth their errour . Beholde Aug. li. 21. de cius . Dei Error about the Supper the absurdities into which men do fall for fault of wel examining the Scriptures , & when they doe take them according to the rigor of the letter . For whosoeuer wil , according to the opinion which the Papistes haue of the Sacrament of the alter , take litterally the which Iesus Christ said of eating of his flesh & drinking his bloud , there is no doubt , but that we shall be constrayned to confesse , that all those which haue once taken the supper , are all saued : and that all those which shall not once receiue it , are all damned . And so it shal be no lesse requisite to giue the supper vnto the young children & to giue power vnto women to giue it them , then the baptisme : they that would take the words & those matters by the rigor . And therfore for to retourne to the place by thée alledged , by the absurdities which should follow of thy exposition , the which do repugne against the grace of Iesus Christ , as I haue declared vnto thee , thou maist wel know , that we must not vnderstand that place after that manner , as thou doest expounde it . For Iesus Christ speaketh not in that place there of visible baptisme , nor of his institution : Regeneration Exposition of the place of saint Iohn 3 But speaketh of the regeneration of man : and sheweth what thing he must haue for to be a Christian , to wit , that it is necessary , that he doe renounce & forsake his first generation & natiuitie , which is altogether corrupted and cursed , and that he be regenerated by the spirit of God , and 1. Peter . 1. d. 23 2. Cor. d. 17 1. Cor. 15. f. 45 thorowe the incorruptible séede of his woorde , insomuch that he is made a newe creature , bearinge the Image of Iesus Christ , the true celestiall Adam , euen as hée hath borne that of the olde and terrestriall Adam . And therefore Iohn . 3. 2. 3 hath hée sayd : Except a man be borne from aboue or a new , be cannot sée the kingdome of God . And after he expoundeth it by the other proposition following , which signifieth none other thing , then that which hée hath already sayd before . For to be borne from aboue , or to bée To be borne of water borne againe , and to be borne of water and the holy Ghost , are equiualent manners of speakings : And the two propositions of Iesus Christ , are equipolent y● one to the other : & ther is none other difference , sauing that the last is more ample , and expoundeth the first . For sith that our first natiuitie is carnal , it must be that the second be spirituall . Sith that 1. Cor. 15. f. 47 the first man is of the earth earthly , it is requisite , that the second , which is from heauen , be heauenly and spirituall . Now that regeneration & transformation cannot be made , but by the spirite of God . For as it is written in that same place : That which is borne of the flesh , is flesh . That that Iohn . 3. a. 6. is borne of the spirit , is spirit . And therefore Iesus Christ willing to expound vnto Nicodemus the which he had said before : Except that a man be borne from aboue or a new , he cannot see the kingdome of God : Afterwardes saith : which shall not bée borne of water and the holy Ghost : bicause that the holy Ghost , author of that regeneration , is giuen from aboue : which worketh a second natiuitie in vs , which is celestiall and spirituall .

Eusebius .

But what néeded it to adde the water ? was it not sufficient to name the holy Ghost .

Theophilus .

Wherefore hath Iohn Baptist sayd , speaking To baptise with the holy Ghost and with fire . Mat. 3 c. 11. of the ministry of Iesus Christ : That he would baptise with the holye Ghoste and with fire : what néeded it , sith that he named the holy Ghost , to adde vnto it the fire ? Shall it be therefore necessary to constitute a baptisme of the fire , as some do say , that some Christians which are amongst the Indians , Aethiopians & Persians do , who for that Indians cause did vse the fire for baptisme of the fire ?

Eusebius .

One may well perceiue there , that Sainct Iohn taketh the fire by a Metaphore : and that he vnderstandeth no other thing by the fire , then the holy Ghost , of whom he hath already spoken the better to expound the nature of the same : for as the fire , is pure & cleane , and cannot suffer any spot The holy ghost is a fire . or filth , but purgeth , maketh cleane , & illuminateth the consciences , & enflameth them to the loue of God . For which cause , he was sent vnto the Apostles in the liknes of tongues Act. 2. a. 3 of fire : the which S. Iohn did foresée & forespeak off , vsing such wordes .

Theophilus .

Thy exposition doth please me very much . Wherefore if thou makest it no difficultie , to take in that place the fire , for the spirit of God & for more ample exposition of his nature & properties , wherfore oughtest thou to make a doubt to take the water in that place for that same signification , séeing that agréeing that the water hath with the nature of the holy Ghost ? For there is no lesse reason : but a great deale more appearance . For Sainct Iohn putteth the holy Ghost first , & the fire afterwards . Wherfore it séemeth , either that he vnderstandeth two thinges seperated : or that he expoundeth the thing more cléere , by a more darker thing : Although that thy aunswere doth sufficiently satisfye that obiection . But in that place Iesus Christ putteth the water first : & afterwards , as if hée would Holy Ghost water expound his Metaphore and comparison , and giue vnto it more greater brightnesse , he declareth what he would signifie by that water : to wit , the holy Ghost : vnto whom he giueth that name for many causes . First , bicause that as the fire is an element meruailous pure and cleane , and so necessary vnto mans life , that it is impossible for men to lack it , so is it of the water : the which is also by nature cléere , pure and cleane and very proper for to represent the same of the holy Ghost . For it washeth , purifieth , cleanseth and refresheth the hearts and consciences , for to comfort them , and to make them bring foorth fruite pleasing vnto God : in such sort that the water causeth the earth to fructifie & renoweth and maketh it fertile , & washeth away the filthinesse Heb. 6. b. 7 from the body . It quencheth and putteth out in lyke manner the fire and heate of wicked carnall concupiscences , as the water quencheth out the fire : and quencheth the thirst and alteration of the poore féebled soules , & refresheth them for euer . The seconde cause is , that hée would haue opened vnto vs the intelligence and vnderstanding of ceremonies , baptismes and purifycations conteyned in the law of Moses & of the prophets in like manner , by which the holy ghost was promised , chiefly by Esay & Ezechiel : vnto Esa. 44. ● . 1 Ezech. 36. g. 33. whom he maketh allusion & hath had the regard thervnto . Therefore he would expound them vnto vs , and giue vs to vnderstand , that those waters promised of God , did signifie none other thing , than the aboundance of the holy ghost , which ought to be shed foorth vpon all flesh , as a riuer and a floud of water , whiche watereth and ouerfloweth all the earth . The which Sainct Peter witnesseth to haue bene Act. 2. 2. 1 accomplished both in him and in the other Disciples of Iesus Christ , the day of Pentecost , according to the prophecie of Ioel. And therefore Iesus Christ , would as well in Ioel. 2. g. 29 that place , as in speaking vnto the Samaritane , and bidding those which were in the temple to come drinke of those liuing Iohn . 4. b. 14 & 7. f. 38 waters , vse those manners of speakings : And for to declare vnto vs in like manner , to what ende he hath instituted the signe of the water , in the baptisme . And that it is true , I doe take Sainct Iohn for a witnesse : who expounding the words of his Master , saith : that he vnderstandeth by those waters , the holy Ghost the which the beléeuers ought to receiue . Thirdly , by that forme of figured speaking , be teacheth vs in like manner , what the Christian man ought to bée , that is , regenerated by the holy Ghost , setting foorth the water and the winde , which are bodyes more subtill , thinner , cléerer , & purer then the earth , which is an element more weightier , vnpurer , thicker and materyall . These wordes then doe signifie as much as if hée had sayde , that in stéede of that weightie , earthlye , carnall and corruptible man , wée must be regenerated into a newe man , heauenlye , spirituall and perfect : as much differing from this héere whiche is earthly and fallinge , as the water and the winde doe differ from the earth : And it must be that the same is done by the holy Ghost which is the true water , which maketh that purification in vs .

Eusebius .

Thy exposition is not without a fayre shew . But ought I therefore the sooner to receyue it , then the same of the auncient Doctours , who in that place by the water , haue vnderstanded the baptisme whiche is giuen by the water : and chiefely Saincte Iohn Chrisostome .

Theophilus .

I am well content , to magnifie with the auncients In. Io. ca. 3 hom. 24. the Sacraments , as much as shall be possible : So that thou wilt vnderstande them so as they themselues would they should be vnderstanded . For although that I would receiue the exposition of Chrisostome , it followeth not therefore , that by the same one may conclude , the element of the water to be so necessary vnto saluation , that without the same , man cannot obteine it . For wée must consider , that when the scripture & the auncient Doctors do speake of the sacraments , they haue not regarde onely The stile of the scripture & of the auncient Doctors touching the sacraments to the outward signe , but do staye themselues principally vpon the thing signified by them , the which they doe vnderstand properly . And therefore following their intellygence , we may expounde those wordes after that sence , as if Iesus Christ did say : hée which shall not wash away his sinnes , which shall not receiue truely the holy Ghost , and which shall not be receiued into my Church , and into my flocke , after the manner as I haue ordeyned that hée shoulde doe by the baptisme , shall not enter into the kingdome of God . It followeth not therefore , that he which shall haue héere all the thinges comprised and signified by the baptisme , ought to bée reiected and forsaken of God , if he lacke but the water . But yet the better to content thée , I will declare vnto thée euidently , that not onely the auncient Doctors , but also the scholasticalles and questionaries , doe confirme my sentence . For the master of the sentences , hauing moued the same question which Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem . thou hast propounded , touching those words of Iesus christ , aunswered that the same place ought to be vnderstanded , of those which may be baptised , and doe make none accompt The exposition of the schoolemen vpon the place of the 3. chapter of Saint ●ohn of it : or that one may thus expound it : he which shall not be regenerate of the water & the holy Ghost , that is to say , of that regeneration which is made by the water & the holy Ghost shall not be saued . Now the regeneration cannot be made onely by the baptisme , but also thorow penance and by the bloud . Behold the very wordes of the master of the sentences who vnderstandeth by the bloud , the same of the Martyrs , which is shed for the witnesse of the truth . For your owne doctours perceiuing the absurdities & inconueniences which would followe if one would vnderstand that place of Iesus Christ of the exterior baptisme , and to Three sortes of baptisme take it rig●rously haue béene compelled to say , that there shoulde be three sortes of baptisme , that is to saye , of the De cons. dist. 4. ca. baptis . Glos . ss. Bap. water : of the holy Ghost : and of bloud : by the whiche diuision , they doe confesse openly , that there is an other kinde of baptisme , then the same of the water , by the which man may be saued . There is the baptisme of the holy Ghost and of faith , which may be without the same of the water . Vpon which the maister of the sentences Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem Aug. de vni bap alledgeth Augustine , saying : Thou doest demaund which is greatest , either faith , or the water ? I doubt not but that thou wilt aunswere vnto mée , that it is the faith . If then that which is least can sanctifie , shal not that which is greater do it better , to wit , the faith , of which Iesus Iohn . ●● . c. 25 Christ hath said : he that beléeueth on mée , yea though he were dead , yet shall he liue .

Eusebius .

Obiection of the necessitie of baptisme Aug. ad Fortunat . De cons. dist. 4. ca. Cathecumenian . S. Augustine neuerthelesse concludeth of the words of Iesus Christ , that none can come vnto eternall life , without the sacrament of baptisme : but those which do shead their bloud for the trueth , in the Church . But which is more , he sayth : we do not beléeue that any Cathecumenian hath eternall life , although that he shall dye in good workes , if he be not baptised or martyred . You do well knowe that in the auncient Church , those which had receiued the Gospell , and were not yet baptised , were called Cathecumenes , bicause that one Cathecumenes . had instructed them in the faith . And following that same matter , he saith more ouer . We beléeue that there is no way of saluation but for those that are baptised .

Theophilus .

I beleeue that thou art not ignorant , how your Sent. 4. dist. 4. q. 1. ca. 10. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 aur. ope. de ver● contra 〈◊〉 1. p●●ce . owne doctours , do answere to that place : Among which Holcot repugneth Saint Augustine , saying : that his exception is not sufficient , and that the man which knoweth Iesus Christ , may be saued without baptisme , by an other meanes then by martyrdome . But which is more , he affirmeth , that the man which beléeueth himselfe to be perfectly baptised , & yet neuerthelesse is not , shal be out of all daunger of dampnation : and saith that that saith shoulde s●rue him to saluation , although that it were builded vpon a falsitie . But what is he among vs , which is perfectly assured whether he be baptised or no. Howe can we knowe it , but by the witnesse of an other ? Therefore the ma●ster of the sentences aunswereth , vppon the ob●●ctions made by thée , that we must vnderstande the wordes of saint Augustine , according to the declaration that he hath giuen in other places , in which he entreateth that matter more amplie : And therefore saith he , we must vnderstande those thinges , of those which haue had Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem . Solution . the time and leasure for to be baptised , & haue not done it . For if any hauing faith and charitie woulde be baptised , Saluation with ou● baptisme . and cannot , being ouertaken with necessitie , the benignitie & liberalitie of the most puissant God , recompenseth Aug. li. de fide . ad Pet. & in Eccle. do . ca. 44. the which wanted in the sacrament . For when he may pay , if he do not pay , he abideth bound : But when he cannot and yet neuertheles he is willing to do it , God which hath not tyed his power vnto the sacraments , imputeth it not vnto him .

I haue alledged vnto thée the very wordes euen as they be written in the booke of the maister of the sentences which yet proueth by saint Augustine , that the inuisible sactification , hath béene in some , and hath profited Aug. in leui . q. 88. them without the visible sacramentes , saying after this manner : the visible sanctification , the which is done by the visible sacrament , may be without the inuisible : but it cannot profite . Yet we must not neuerthelesse contemne and dispise the visible sacrament . For the contemner of the same , cannot be sactified inuisib●●e . And notwithstanding that Holcot alloweth that which others haue written of the baptisme of bloude , he declareth yet neuerthelesse sufficiently ynough , that he which without Sent. ● . dist. ● . q. ● . cas. 10 Baptisme of bl●●le being baptised sheddeth his bleude , for the name of Iesus Christ , is not baptised by that bloude which hath béene shed : But that the Church holdeth him for baptised , bicause that by the same , he hath sufficiently witnessed , that he hath not dispised baptisme , but that he woulde willingly receiue it , if it had béene possible for him : Sith that he hath shewed such faith in the Gospell of Iesus Christ .

Eusebius .

I graunt that thou saiest , as touching men of age , vnto whome the faith and repentaunce doe recompence the want of baptisme . But of young infantes it is otherwise . For sith that there is neither ●aith nor repentance in them , they cannot be saued without baptisme . Therefore saith the maister of the sentences , that those which dye without baptisme , yea though The sentence of Saint Angust● touching the children that die without baptisme L● . de fid. ad pe●re dia. De cons. dist. 4. ca. Fer●missume one bring them to bee baptised , shal bee dampned : and doth proue it by saint Augustine , saying : holde this for a suertie and doubt nothing at all of it , that not onely men hauing already reason , but also the young infants , which begin to liue in their mothers belly , and doe there die , without the sacrament of holy baptisme which is giuen in the name of the father , the sonne , and the holy ghost : or those which without the same doe passe out of this worlde after that they are borne , shal be punished with eternall fire . For although that they haue not had sinne by theyr proper acte and woorke , yet they haue neuerthelesse drawen vnto them by their conception and natiuitie , the dampnation of originall The Limbe of the young infants destroyed sinne .

Theophilus .

Thou hast nowe beaten downe the Lymbe of the young infants . For if the wordes of Saint Augustine be true , according to the sence whiche thou giuest vnto them , the little infantes dying without baptisme , are all dampned and punished in eternall ●re . They are then in hell . Wherefore it is not nowe néede to forge and make for them a Lymbe . By that meanes all the doctrine of your doctours is here ouerthrowne . And therefore they haue not all allowed that sentence , but haue iudged it too rigorous and cruell , in such sort , that some , for that cause , haue called S. Augustine , the hangman of the young In●ants : notwithstanding The hangm● of in●ants that he is well worthie that they doe speake of him more reucrently . For I do not thinke , that he himselfe would that these wordes shoulde be taken after such r●gour and extremitie . And therefore it is néede to consider the occasions which might haue moued him to write after that sort . For if the necessitie and the impossibilitie excuseth the great ones , wherefore shall the little ones ●e lesse excusable , which haue yet more excuse , then the great ones may haue ? For when they dye being young , or in their mothers bellie , or out of it , what fault then was in them , that they were not baptised ? hath God conceiued more greater hatred against them then against the great ones ? although the baptisme of the water shoulde be asmuch necessarie vnto saluation , as you do make it , if there be any exception for the ene , by what right & reason may it be denyed vnto the others , when the cause & the excuses are equall ? But we ought to consider , that in the t●●e of Saint Augustine there might be a great sort of people , which had not the Sacraments in such estimation and reuerence as they ought to haue , ( as wée Errors about the Sacraments haue proued it in our time ) in which some haue so much attributed vnto it , that they haue made of the visible signes a Iesus Christ , and an Idole . The others to the contrarie do holde them as signes , without vertue and efficacie , no more then the signes which the souldiours do beare , for to shewe what Prince they do serue .

Hillarius .

But haue we not had Anabaptistes , which would baptise them selues againe , and haue co●demned Anabaptists the baptisme of young Infants , willing to deferre it vntill they should come vnto the age of discretion ?

Theophilus .

Let vs not doubt , that from the time of Saint Augustine , but that there be many founde , more negligent , then they ought to he , touching the sacraments : the which thing hath compelled the aun●ients to magnifie them so much . And therefore those which are come after them , not considering the causes wherefore they did the same , haue taken the wordes rawly , without a fit interpretation , and without taking beede to their manner of speaking rethorically and figuratiuely , which hath beene the cause that they haue made Idols , as though the vertue of Iesus Christ , and of the Christian religion were in those visible signes . Wée cannot deny , but that in the time of those good auncient fathers , many after that they had knowen the Gospell , tarryed not long time to cause Baptism delaied themselues to be baptised : yea , often times vntill the latter end of their life . Nowe they did the same , some through negligence others , bicause of the opinion that they had , that thorough the baptisme , all the sinnes that might be in man , were defaced and put out . For that reason they tarryed as long as they could , for to depart out of this world more purer and cleane from their sinnes . But which is worse , some vnder that hope , did take the greater holdnesse to sinne . Whome Chrisostome rebuketh , shewing vnto them , that peraduenture God wil not giue Chris● . in epist. ad Hebr. De cons. dist. 4. ca. quando them the grace , to haue space to be baptised , if they did tarrie vntill the houre of their death , and if they did abuse so the baptisme , as he hath séene that it hath happened vnto many , who thorough that vaine hope & trust , haue béene deceiued . In like manner also hath Basill the great made a sermon expressing that matter and rebuketh very sharpely those which do so . Euen as then the greate and old ones haue delayed their baptisme , it is not to be doubted , but that for these same reasons , they haue done the like towardes their children . And therefore we must not be abashed , if saint Augustine hath written and spoken after such sort of baptisme , for to correct such faultes , negligences and opinions , and the better to incytate and stirre vp the Christians to giue their indeuours in that , as well for them as for their little children . For that To baptise twice in a yere . cause it was auncyently established in the Church , that they shoulde baptise twise in a yeare . That is to say , at Easter and at Whits●●tyde ● although that the baptisme De cons. dist. 4. was permitted at all t●●e in case of 〈◊〉 . There was yet an other reason , which ●ight haue giuen 〈◊〉 vnto saint Augustine to speake so . He did sée and pe●ce●ue that many 〈◊〉 infected with the here●●e of the Pelagians Pelagians . which did not attribute much vnto the grace of God , and did 〈◊〉〈◊〉 at all originall 〈◊〉 , but did greatly mag●●fie the vertues and strengthes of men . ●or which caus● they had not the baptisme in grea●e estimation .

And therefore woulde ●aint Augustine declare the nature of originall sinne , and induce men to giue and Original sinne beare more greater honour vnto the sacramentes . Then the better for to manifest the same , he declareth howe the young infants which haue not yet committed any a●tuall sinne , are not yet neuerthelesse without sinne worthy of death and eternall dampnation , bicause of their corrupt nature which they haue drawen , as from a right inheritance and proper heritage , of their fathers and mothers in their conception and natiuitie . For they haue béene conceiued and borne in sinne and in●quitie : and Psa. 51. ● 27 can be none others , then such as the sinnefull beginning , from which they are come . For that whiche is borne of the ●●esh , is flesh : And a wolfe cannot ingender but Io●n . ● . 2. ● a young Woolfe : a Serpent a young Serpent . And euen as wée doe not leaue off or cease to hate a young Woolfe , although that he hath not yet eaten any shéepe , or a Serpent , notwithstanding that he hath not yet cast forth his venym , but do iudge him worthie of death , bicause of the peruerse nature that is in them : so ought we to estéeme , and thinke that God hath no lesse occasion to hate and condempne vs , euen from our mothers bellie , bicause of our per●ersitie and naturall malyce engendred with vs . And though he shoulde dampne vs eternally , he shoulde doe vs no wrong , but onely that which our nature meriteth and deserueth . For although that the young infant hath not yet done any worke , which wée may Iudge to be euill and wicked , sith that he hath not yet the vnderstanding , discretion nor the power to doe it , it followeth not therefore , but that the peruersitie and malyce , which is naturall in man , hath alreadie his roote in him , as one part of his paternall in●erita●nce , the which cannot please God . For although that it bringeth not yet forth hir fruites , yet they doe remaine still there , as in their roote , which will bring them forth in his time : As the venym is alreadie in a Serpent , although that he bite not : and the nature of a Woolfe , in a young Woolfe , howe innocent so euer he seemeth to b●● .

But from whence doe the fruites of the fleshe procéede , and the sinnes which man committeth , when hée is of age , but of that vicious roote , of that originall sinne , and corrupt nature ? Then Saint Augustine did no wronge , to aggrauate that natural corruption , and to say that the infant , from his mothers belly is culpable of e 〈◊〉 fire , not onely the men that are of age , if they do dye without baptisme : if he doe vnderstande by the baptisme the grace and mercie of GOD which by the same is represented and communicated vnto the electe : As I thinke verely , that he did chiefely vnderstande it .

For if he woulde take it by the rigour , for the exteriour baptisme , and the materiall ceremony , I cannot nor may not agrée with him : sith that hée ●lledgeth not sufficient witnesses of the holy scriptures , for so proue that proposition so rigorous and so repugnant vnto the b●untie and grace of GOD , as wee haue alreadie sufficiently declared : But I estéeme and iudge rather , that hée vnderstandeth by the baptisme made in the name of the Father , the Sonn●and of the holye Ghost , the vertue and efficacie and the thing figured by the exteriour Baptisme , whiche is the true signe and witnesse of him , whiche is spirituall and interiour , as the signe and exteriour ceremonye , by the which yet neuerthelesse , hée signifieth and comprehendeth all the vertue of the baptisme of Iesus Christ , after the manner , as the holy scripture hath accustomed to vse . For in the same Signes and figures for the things ligned & figured the signe & the figure are oftentimes taken for the thing signed and figured , comprehending the whole for parte bicause that the scripture addresseth it vnto the faithfull , which do not receiue the sacraments in vaine , and without a spirituall meaning : Therefore the Apostle saith : All ye that are baptised haue put on Christ . And yet neuerthelesse , Symon the Magitian was baptised outwardly Gal. 3. d 27 The sayth of Simon Act. 8. b. 13. by Philip , and yet I do not beléeue that euer he did put on Christ , sith that he did not truely beléeue .

Eusebius .

Notwithstanding it is written in the Actes , that he belieued .

Theophilus .

It is certeine . But yet neuertheles he hath well declared af●ewardes , that the same which hée hath done was but dissembling , and that he had neuer true faith . But saint Luke , who hath written the history speaketh after the common manner of speaking , as wée doe say , that a man hath receiued the gospell : or that a Iewe hath made himselfe or is become a christian , and hath beléeued in Iesus which yet neuertheles may doe it , by hypocrisse , and not in déede . Yet neuerthelesse we doe speake euen as the thinges are shewed vnto vs , leauing the iudgment of the heart vnto God . So hath saint Augustine expounded that which saint Luke hath spoken that Symon Magus hath beléeued .

Hillarius .

I thinke , Eusebius , that thou oughtest to content thyselfe with the aunswere which Theophilus made vnto thée . For it is so cleare and easie , and so much confirmable vnto the Annallogie of the faith , that none can speake against it , except he do loue rather to contende and striue thorowe obstination , then to content himselfe with reason . And if thou doe diligently consider , and well way that which hath béene aunswered vnto thée , thou m●ist profite by it many wayes . For by the same thou maist knowe what ought to be the vse of the sacraments : what ought to be the true baptisme and the true regeneration of a Christian . If thou dost vnderstande that , thou shall bée 〈◊〉 more in doubt , nor in 〈◊〉 of the younge Infant●● which dye without baptisme : But wylt leaue them in the handes of God , and 〈◊〉 refor●e all vnto his mercy . And if thou bée once come vnto that pointe , th●● shalt also knowe the 〈◊〉 o● those which doe carie their children that are bor●● dead 〈◊〉〈◊〉 they dyd in that 〈◊〉 vnto 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of grace of Geneua , or vnto our 〈◊〉 of Lau●anne .

Thomas .

They did also cary them vnto the holye crosse , and vnto our Ladye of Butter . Our Lady of butter .

Hillarius .

Ther 〈◊〉 now then but a Lady of Chéese , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 of Butter , the whiche is nowe altogether 〈◊〉 . W●● shoulde haue but a little iudgement , if wée ●●●we not those great abuses , and to iudge of those false 〈◊〉 . Further more , by th●se same reasons thou maist iudge of the 〈◊〉 of those which doe giue authoritie vnto the wise and 〈◊〉 ●●emon to baptis● the younge 〈◊〉 of women 〈◊〉〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 daunger of 〈◊〉

Eusebius .

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 there in that Hillanius Th●● 〈…〉 can tell thée .

Theoph●●●● .

There is first of all this euill , that those that require such baptisme , are of an opinion that it is so necessary vnto 〈◊〉 , that without the same their childe cannot be saned . Wherein they doe 〈◊〉 vnto the grace of Iesus Christ , and doe presume 〈◊〉 of the vertue of his holy spirite , and do render publicke and open witnesse of their superstition and infidelitie . Againe , they sinne in that that they doe dishonour the Sacramentes , when they giue and bestowe them vnto others then vnto those vnto whome God hath giuen the charge to administer them . Wherefore they cannot fayle , either on the one side or on the other , but that they are greatly to bée rebuked . For if they doe adde to it necessitie , it appeareth already into what errour they are . If they saye that they doe not put to it necessitie , and that they doe not tye the grace of God vnto the corruptible elementes , and exteriour ministrie , wherefore then doe they giue that authoritie vnto woemen , without the word of God ? Wherefore doo they take any other 〈◊〉 then the same which is giuen them of Iesus Christ ? Wherefore doe they seperate that which God hath ioyned together ? For the baptisme & the administration of Sacraments are ioyned together with the 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 be seperated , without ouer throwing the orna● which Iesus Christ hath put and set in his Church . Nowe euen as the institution of the Sacramentes is a publicke Ceremony and ioyned together with the ministrie of the Gospel , so ought they to be Ministers of Sacraments administred publyckly in the Church , by those selfe same vnto whome the ministrie of the Gospel is committed , and which of God and of the same are ●lected pastor● and ministers . And therefore Iesus Christ hath not giuen charge to baptise vnto others then vnto those vnto whom Mat. ●8 . d 18 he hath commaunded to preach his gospel , & to exercise the Euangelicall ministrie in his Church . For it is expre●●y 1. Cor. 14 , ● . 34 1. Timo. 2. d. 1● Ecclesiastical offices . forbidden woemen to speake in the Church , and to vsurpe vpon them any ecclesiastical office : the which thing is not permitted but vnto woemen , & yet not vnto all indiffer●●ly , but vnto those which are elected & lawefully ordeyned to the same , the which he doth sufficiently declare , when he commaunded by his Apostle , that all things should be done honestly ● . Cor. 14. g. 40 & in order . For if in y●●●uile administration order be required , & that it is not lawful to exercise the offices , but to the officers , d● we thinke that Iesus Christ requireth lesse in the ecclesiasticall policie ? and that hée will suffer , that the same that he hath set should be ouerthrowen ? Those then that will allow the baptisme of women , ought first to shew in what place God hath ordeyned it : what witnesse or example of the Scripture they haue . If that is wantinge them , as I am well assured that it is , they shall bée constrayned to confesse , that that baptisme is giuen wythout fayth , and that it is builded but vpon mans opinion .

For faith commeth by the hearinge of the worde of Rom. 10 , d. 17 God . If then it haue not the word of God , it can haue no faith . If it haue no fayth , it is then sinne . For all that Rom. 14 , d , 23 whiche is done without fayth is sinne . We maye then Mat. 21 , c. 25 Mar , 11 , d , 30 Luc , 2● , ● , 4 aske them , euen as Iesus Christ asked the Pharises , touching the baptisme of Iohn . Baptist : to witte , whether it were from heauen or of men . Also in lyke manner that baptisme of woemen , whether it be of God or of men ? If they answere that it ●● 〈◊〉 God , where are the witnesses of the Scripture . I● they answere it is of men , as they shall 〈◊〉 constrayne● to say , they shal be compelled to confesse , that it is the procéeded from an other author contrary vnto God : ●●th that Iesus Christ directeth men vnto heauen and vnto God , declaring thereby that that which is not of the one , is of his contrary . I cannot then conclude but that that baptisme is procéeded of any other , but of the aduersary of God , which would aduance , women vnto the ministerie and ecclesiasticall offices , from which God woulde drawe and pull them from it , for to declare themselues in all thinges contrarye vnto GOD . Euen so hath hée done women priestes Martionistes Epiph. Tom. 3. lib. 1. contr. Mart. h● . 42 De cons. dist. 4. ca. Baptisandi , & constat . Mul●er . E● con● . Car●● 〈◊〉 30. q. 3. Super quis . Vnde versus ex Chans . de Sacra . Baptizat . laicus , multer si mors t●meatur . Est tamen officium solum modo presbyterorum . Mortis in periculo sufficit omnis homo . amonge the Pa●●ms , which haue vsed woemen Priestes : And amonge the heretickes Martionistes , who with their master Martion , haue permitted woemen to baptyse , as Epiphanius wytnesseth . Beholde the examples & witnesses which you may haue , for your baptisme of women .

Eusebius .

I doe agrée vnto all that whiche thou sayest , as touching the publyke office , and hauinge no necessytie . For the Councells , Canons and auncient Doctours , doe not saye much lesse , but doe witnesse playnelye , that it is not lawfull for anye person to baptise , but vnto the Ministers of the Church , as the Bishoppes and Priestes doe . But they doe vnderstande the same , when there is no extraordinarye necessitie , and daunger of death . For in such case they doe dispence and permit to doe it , not onely vnto lay men and handycrafts men , but in like mann●r ●nto women .

Theophilus .

Wée doe not dispute of that which men do permit , but of that which god hath commaunded . I finde no necessitie , but when God giueth vs the means , & that ther may be falt in vs . Neuertheles if it be néedful to arme th●selues with the authoritie of men , in this matter , yet wée will proue that the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 for v● . For first of all , 〈◊〉〈◊〉 i● 〈◊〉 that ●●er Iesus Christ hath sayd ●●to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 and baptise , Wherefore sainct August●●●ath 〈◊〉 ●● 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ●●●ly of the woeman , but of the pri●●te and p●●ticul●r man , to witte , whether hée do● 〈◊〉 i● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 i● 〈◊〉 of neces 〈◊〉 To the whi●h ●é● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 the rather for to 〈◊〉 it th●● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 the ●eas● , D● c●●s . dist. 4. in neces●●tate August . contr. parm● . li. 2. c● . 13. wi●e it is a thing 〈◊〉 that ●● 〈◊〉 ●ot 〈◊〉 that it is lawfull , but confe●●eth 〈◊〉 that there 〈◊〉 ● certeyne fault , although that ●ée made it light . But he hath taken it , as it happen●th 〈◊〉 ●●to the good Mariners , who through the ●iol●●c●s ●● the 〈◊〉 are constrayned to 〈◊〉 from their right 〈◊〉 and to followe whether the tempestes and windes will driue and cary them . There ●s no doubte , that 〈◊〉 from the time of Sain●t Augustine , that errour and custome was not any thing at all receyued . Wherefore Sainct Augustine ●●rst not altogether condempne it . No more also durst hée ●o allowe it , nor altogether excuse it o● 〈◊〉 Yet neuerthelesse , if wée doe followe the rule of Iesus Christe , that will put vs ●ut of all doub●e . Althoughe that wée yet haue on our side , the fourth Councell of Africa , whiche hath forbidden the same , without any exception . The ●ouncel of Africa . C●nc . Carth. 4. C●● . 100. It is most true , that in the ●e●ré●s ●f Gra●ian , that Canon is alledged , but not accordinge to the truth : as it is written in the booke of Councells . For hée addeth to it the exception , whiche is not in the true oryginall .

Hillarius .

Althoughe that ●here w●re none but the witnesses of the Priestes , they doe sufficientlye declare that it is euill . For when one bringeth the ●hildren to ●ée baptised , they doe demaunde : is there any thinge but good ? They demaund the same , for to know whether that the Infant hath bene baptised by the woem●n . If it hath not bene baptised , th●● aunswere , that all is well or there is nothinge but good . It followeth then that th●re was an euill when the childe was baptised by them .

Eusebius .

They d●● not vnderstand it so as thou takest it .

Hillarius .

I beléeue thée well , and I doubt not but that God will make th●m speake , ●● he hath made Ca●p●●es to prophecie , without vnderstanding themselues .

Eusebius .

For that thou 〈◊〉〈◊〉 thy selfe so much , that we haue no witnes of the Scripture , how wilt thou the● The example of Zipphora . Exo. 4. f. 25. excuse Zipphora , the wi●e of Moses , who circumcised hir sonne Eleaser , in Moses own presence , how hath then Moses pe●●●itte● the same ?

Theophilus .

The example is not like , but rather against thée , then for thée . For first , thou séest that Moses did not estéeme the circumcision so necessary , as you estéeme the baptisme : sith that he made so small accompt to circumcise his ●onne , although that he had more expresse commaundement , th●● we haue of baptisme : Furthermore , notwithstanding that that place is very obs●ure , bicause that Moses rehearseth the history ●o short and briefly . Yet neuerthelesse i● one doe examine it throughly , one shall not finde that that example can be better applyed , then to the ●ispi●●ng of the circumcision and of the Sa●●a●●e●●es . For that which is written , that the Lord or his Angell , came before him and assalted him , minding to kill him . 〈◊〉 ently declareth that the Lord was ang●● , bicause that Moses , notwithstandinge that he had the ●●●e and the occasion to circumcise his sonne , hath not done such diligence as he ought to haue done . Wherefore the Lord punished him . But as soone as the childe was circumcised , he was deliuered from that daunger , and the Lord did not pursue him anye more : But there is an other reason , when the Infantes doe dye , and that there is no negligence , nor default in the parentes . As touching that that Zipphora did the office to circumcise , & not Moses , we must consider that then Moses coulde not doe that , bicause that he was pressed and grieued by the hande of God , who would haue killed him . Wherefore , for to saue his lyfe , Zipphora laide to hi● 〈◊〉〈◊〉 For none other coulde haue done it but shée .

Eusebius .

Nowe thou art compelled to confesse that which I demaund . For thou wilt excuse Zipphora bycaus● of the necessitie whiche constrained hir : no more also doe wée allow the baptisme administred by woemen and others then the ministers of the Church : but in case of necessitie .

Theophilus .

I haue yet other reasons against thée . The first is that wée doe not reade , that God hath giuen expresse commaundement vnto men onely , to circumcise , as he hath do●e of baptising . The second is , there was not th●●●ny forme of the Church , nor polici● and publike ministrie amonge the Medianites , and where Moses was .

The third is , that it is lykest to ●ée true , that Zipphora did that by the commaundement of Moses hir husbande , who feeling himselfe stroke● of God , admonyshed hir to do that for to saue his life . For otherwise , how could ●he haue vnderstanded and knowen , that hir hus●ande had bene in daunger of death , for such cause , if hée had not aduertysed hir of it . Although that Moses writinge briefly hath not re●●●rsed all those thinges at large . But he hath made them sufficiently to bée vnderstanded . Nowe if Moses did commaunde hir , she did it not without the worde of God : Sith that Moses was a Prophet : yea him , by whome God addressed and gaue his ordinaunce in the Church of Israel . Furthermore , although that it be so , yet that example is not sufficient , for to builde the baptisme of woemen , against the ordinance of Iesus Christ : For we ought The examples of the Saincts ought not to be all drawen into a generall consequence not to draw into a generall consequence , the perticuler examples of Sainctes : and that which by a singuler priuiledge and dispensation hath bene somtime permitted them , if we haue no expresse commaundement as they haue had : or the same occasions and circumstaunces . Besides that , that there be some examples of holy men , the which the Scripture alloweth not alwayes , notwithstanding that it rehearseth them , or if it doe allowe them in those there , it followeth not therefore , that it doth the like in vs , if we haue not a certeine vocation and calling of God .

Thomas .

I greatly feare Eusebius , that in disputing after this manner , the Lymbe and the Purgatorye which thou vpholdest and mainteinest , will be altogether destroied and ouerthrowen . For as farre as I can iudge , the same of the young children is altogether throwen down to the ground , if thou do not helpe it . The Purgatorye hath but a little more holde : There remayneth now but the Limbe The Limbe of the Fathers . of the fathers , of which I do very much desire to know the resolution , and to vnderstande whether it bée all one with Paradise . For Theophilus hath already almost proued it to bée so , speaking of the estate of those which were in Abrahams bosome .

Eusebius .

I do not deny but that the auncient Fathers , which were deteined in the Limbes , had already a certein participation of the celestial ioyes , but not so great , as they haue had after the death and passion of Iesus Christ .

Theophilus .

I hope that we shal be soone agréed and that there shall be in the ende no other difference betwéene the Sainctes which are dead vnder the olde and new Testament , then betwéene the liuing , which haue bene both in the one and in the other . Thou canst not deny 〈◊〉 but that One onely church and eternall . the Church of Iesus Christ hath begun , thence the creation of the world , & the first that euer was last & righteous , & the which shal so continue vnto the ende & conclusion of the world , & shall continue eternally .

Eusebius .

I do confesse no lesse .

Theophilus .

I● followeth by the same reason , that the Church of the patriarches & prophets , which haue ben before the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ is none other but the very same of his Apostles , Euangelists & Disciples : and that the faithfull of the people of Israel and those of the christian people are but one people & one church . For they had one very God : one very Christ and the very Heb. ●● . c. ● promises : one very spirit of faith : and hau● eaten of one manner of spirituall meate , and did all drinke of one manner 1. Cor. 10. 23. of spiritual drinke with vs , as the Apostle witnesseth .

Eusebius .

Then there shall be no difference betwéene the auncient Fathers and vs . To what ende then serued the comming of Iesus Christ ?

Theophilus .

I haue not yet sayde so . For I doe finde great difference .

Eusebius .

What ?

Theophilus .

Difference betwene the old and newe Testament . As great as is betwéene a starre and the Sunne , from the day breake and dawning to hye none : betwéene the shadow and the body : betwéene the Image and the truth : betwéene the thing promised , and the thing giuen .

Eusebius .

Thou wilt yet come vnto my matter . For it séemeth by those wordes , that thou leauest to the auncientes but the shadowes and figures and that thou giuest vnto vs the body and the thing figured . There is then great difference .

Theophilus .

Yet thou vnderstandest me not very well . I doe not denye , but that they had all that which wée haue : but not so cléerely , so excellently and so gloriously , nor in such aboundaunce of glory and maiestie : For by 2. Cor. 3. c. 1● the comming of Iesus Christ the knowledge of God , and the intelligence of the holy Scriptures hath bene more greater , and more ample then before : not onely in the land of Canaan , & to the people of Israel , but in all landes , countries Act. ● . ● . & nations and the spirit of God with all his giftes , graces and riches , hath bene distributed in more greater aboundaunce efficacie vertue & magnificence then euer it was

Eusebius .

Difference betwene the dead vnder the olde and newe testament . That which thou speakest off , toucheth not yet but to the liuing which haue liued as well vnder the olde as the new testament . But what difference doest thou put betwéene the liuing and the dead , vnder the one and the other ?

Theophilus .

That should bée too great temeritie and rashnesse in vs , to define of the estate of the dead , and to affirme any other thing then that which standeth manifestly vnto vs by the holy Scriptures . Yet neuerthelesse , because that in the same there are some places , which giue light vnto vs of that same . I will not make it any greate repugnaunce to putte in that matter , such certeine difference betwéene them , as wée haue put betwne the liuing .

Eusebius .

It séemeth then , that thou wouldest say that the gates of Paradise were no lesse open , before the death and passion of Iesus Christ then afterwardes . And that there was none other difference , betwéene the heauenly ioy and fruition of the auncient fathers , and of the Christians that are deade , saying that nowe all haue it more ample and more excellent .

Theophilus .

As for my part there where I haue not the scripture well expressed , I doe leaue vnto euery one his frée iudgement , so that it be ruled by the worde of God . Touching my part , I will expounde vnto thée , that that I can drawe & comprehend out of the holy scriptures , by the which it is sufficiently made knowen vnto vs , that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath béene immolated and offered vpon the Crosse for to satisfie the righteousnesse of God for vs , at the time which was ordeined him of the father , yet hath he béene The sacrific● of Christ is eternall . 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Heb. 13. b. 8 ne●erthelesse killed and offered in the presence of God , from the beginning of the worlde . For it is written : Iesus Christ was yesterday and to day , and the same contynueth for euer . By those wordes , the Apostle comprehendeth all the tyme past , present and to come . To which Iesus Christ himselfe had-regarde , when he saide , Abraham did sée my dayes and reioyced . For although Iohn . 8. g. 58 that in respect of vs he was crucyfied in the fulnesse of time , in those latter dayes , yet neuerthelesse in the presence of God , he hath béene a●●ayes : and his sacrifice hath béene eternally presented vnto him . For with God there is up difference of times , as in vs , bicause that all Rom. 8. c. 15 Gal. 4. ● . 4 thinges are present to him , and that he is aboue , and out of the same . For a thousande yeares before him , are to Psal. 90. a. 4. ● . Pet. 3. b , 8 him but as one day . Wherefore in the same sort as the death and passion of Iesus Christe serueth nowe to vs , which beleeue that he hath béene crucified for vs , although that he hangeth no more in the crosse , so I holde it for certeine , that it profiteth those which liued before that he was cruci●●ed , and haue beléeued that he ought to come and dye for them , euen as we beléeue that he is come , and that he is deade for vs .

Eusebius .

To what ende hath serued then his comming ?

Theophilus .

Doest thou yet not vnderstande it ? If a man were detayned and kept in prison for certeine debt that he oweth , and that he hath a certeine friend who commeth to be his suertie and to pledge him , body for body , and goods for goods , and that the creditor & prince receiueth & alloweth him for his pledge , suertie and hostage , shall not the prisoner be deliuered by meanes of that suertie ? But yet neuerthelesse , vpon such condition , that either he , or his suertye doe pay and satisfie for him , at the time as shal be appointed him . After Christ our suertie . Genes. 3. c. 15 the same manner hath God done , with those good auncyent fathers . For sithen●e that he made the promise vnto Adam , of the séede of the woman which shoulde breake the serpents head , the which afterwardes he hath r●●●●rated and confirmed more amply and more clearely vnto Abraham , Gen●● . 12. ● 15 20. 48 2. Reg. 7 Psal. 40 Psal. 130 Iacob , Dauid , and to all the other patr●ark●● and celebrated by all his Prophetes , and by all the sacrifices , oblations , figures and ceremonyes commaunded in hys lawe , Iesus Christ offred himselfe to God his father , for to bee our pledge and suertye : and gaue himselfe to him as a pledge , for all those which haue beléeued in his promises , made of him . But vpon such condition , that Iere. 23. ● . 5 & ●3 . c. 14 〈◊〉 ● . ● . 47 he being very and true God , according to the good pleasure of the father , for to satisfie his will and his righteousnesse , tooke vpon him our flesh and presented himselfe before his iudgement at the time as by his prouidence was constituted and appointed him , for to satisfie in our stéede . Nowe sith that Iesus Christ hath once aunswered for his bretheren beléeuing in him , the heauenly father hath excepted it , aswell as though , he had alreadie satisfied it , as afterwardes he hath done it in his time .

Eusebius .

Doest thou think that 〈◊〉 of glory in the other ly●e . there is in the other life any augmentation and increase of ioy and of glory ?

Theophilus .

To the end thou maist not rebuke me in ouer rash defining of such things , I will propounde vnto thée the witnesses of the scripture , by whiche thou maist comprehend that which we may iudge off . Mark then first the witnesse of the Apostle , which saith , writting of the holy prophets and seruants of God which were before the comming of Christ : that all those there , hauing Heb. 11. ●● . obteyned witnesse by faith receiued not the promise , God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vs , to the end that they should not be come vnto perfection , without vs . He saith not , that they haue altogether receiued the promise : For it was made first of all to them . But he vnderstandeth the accomplishing and the fruite of the same , of which they haue not béene altogether depriued : But they haue not had it so perfectly , as we haue it nowe : For sith that he speaketh of fulfilling and ending , he signifieth then , that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie : But the perfection was not yet , nor shal be vntill the consummation and restoring of all things . For the terme of consummation and perfection , are relatiues , the which wée must necessarily referre vnto some beginning . To which agréeth the aunswere that GOD made vnto the soules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce against the persecutors of the Church : vnto whome the Lorde aunswered , that they shoulde tarrye vntyll the number of Apoc. 6. c. 10 their bretheren were fulfilled .

Eusebius .

make me to vnderstand that more clearely .

Theophilus .

Assone as we b●gin to knowe God in A comparison of the lyfe present and of that to come . Heb. 6. ● . 4 Io●● . 5. this worlde , and to beléeue in Iesus Christ , we begin also to tast the goodnesse of the celestiall life and of the worlde to come : But we haue not yet perfect ioy . Yet neuerthelesse sithence that we haue once tasted that celestiall goodnesse we grow from day to day , from knowledge to knowledge , from faith to faith , from good to be better , vntil we become vnto the age of a perfect man , to the fulnesse of Ephe. 4 Christ , to the eternall felicitie and ended blessednesse . Now if alreadie in this vale of misery , our soule , being charged with this terrestiall body , shut vp and kept in the same , as in a darke prison , altogether wrapped in miseries , sinnes and maledictions , receiueth such consolation and ioy , there is no doubt , but that after that it is deliuered from that prison and capti●●tie and hath put of all earthly corruption , it may growe into all goodnesse and perfection : or else in vaine hath Saint Paul saide : I des●re to be losed and to be with Christ , which thing is to ●e best of all . P●il . ● . d. 2● And yet neuerthelesse it hath not hir ●e●i●●tie and perfect glorie , vntill the resurrection of his glorious bodie , And that it be againe vnited wi●h it , and se● God face to face , and knowe him as we haue béene know●● of him : 1. Cor. 13. d. 12 1. Cor. 15 d 28 1. Iohn . 3. ●● Colos. 3. ● , 3 then when he shal haue vanquished all things , and shal be all in all . For it is not yet appeared , what we shal be : but our life is hid in Iesus Christ . Euen as then , those which doe nowe depart out of this life , haue not yet such ioy , as they shall haue after that Iesus Christ shall appeare in glorie , ●or to iudge all flesh , when we shall all arise , so by the like reason we may estéeme and thinke , that the auncient fathers , which haue béene before the comm●ng of Iesus Christ , haue not had altogether such ioy and felicitie , before ●is resurrection as afterwarde . For if the Angels themselues , which alwayes doe behold Augmentacion of the felicitie to the Angels the face of the heauenly father haue receiued increase of the science and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Iesus Christ , and there ought to receiue it more ample in the resurrection of the iust and righteous , we must not doubt , but that asmuch shall happen vnto the blessed spirites and iust soules . Wherefore wée may easely knowe by the same : howe great and admirable the misterie and secret of the redemption of mankinde is : and what is the excellencie of the Church of Iesus Christ : sith that the angels themselues do● receiu● so great profite and increase in all goodnesse .

Thomas .

By what place of the holy scripture ca●st thou proue that which thou speakest .

Theophilus .

They are sufficiently expressed in the Epistles of the Apostles for saint Peter , speaking of that matter , saith that of the Prophets & auncyent fathers , that it hath béene reuealed vnto them , that not to them selues , but vnto vs , they should administer the things ; the which ( saith he ) nowe are declared vnto you by them 1. Pe●er . 1. ●●● which haue declared the gospell , by the holy ghost sent from 〈◊〉 the which the Angels doe desire to beholde . The Angel● had not that desire , but that they did féele a greate goodnesse . But saint Paul sheweth vnto vs the same yet more expressely and declareth vnto vs sufficiently that sith that the Angels are the ministers of God appointed Psal. 9● . c. 11 Hebr. 1 , c. ● to the health of men , which cannot be in perfect and full blessednesse as we which are their compagnions , burgesses and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them , neither are we also come therevnto . For euen as they do reioyce ouer the sinner that repenteth and which Luc. 15. c. 10 ret●urneth vnto God : also without all doubt , sith that abo●e all things they do procure our helth and saluation , it cannot be , but that they are verie angrye and sorye when they sée vs yet pressed with sinne and death and to striue against them in great anguish . Forasmuch then as their ●●●y●itie is ioyned with ours , it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect . For it is written expresly that the saintes shal iudge the Angels and the worlde 1. Cor. 6 , ● , 2. And the Apostle affirmeth , that nowe vnto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation Eph● . 3 , b. 10 the manifold wisedome of God according to the eternall purpose which he purposed in Christe Iesu our Lorde . If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the knowledge of the goodnesse of God , the which they doe daily sée to be manifested by newe miracles towardes the Church , so in like manner it must be that they doe acknoweledge vs for their iudges , and princes in Christ , and bicause of Christe it is easie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth séeke his perfection of Iesus Christe . Therefore it is written that thorowe him all Christ the restorer of all thinges Ephe , 1 , b , 10. Collo , 1 , ● , ●● . thinges are repaired and restored , both in heauen and in earth . Wherein the scripture teacheth vs , that his comming was not onely healthful vnto men , but also vnto all creatures yea vnto the Angels themselues , which had no sinne . For euen as the f●ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them subiect vnto malediction with him ? so euery creature sigheth and groneth with him also , loo●●●g for their redemption Rom. ● . d. ●● and deliuerance , the which is ioyned together with his . Nowe if the Angells cannot be perfectly cons●mated in all blessednesse without vs , which are their compaignio●s , how shal our other bretheren do which are ioyned néerer vnto vs , & which do yet t●●●e for the redemption of their bodyes , and the consummation of their ioy ? the which they cannot haue without vs , and a great deale lesse then the Angels .

Thomas .

We● may also conclude by the contrarie , that the tor●ents of the diuells Torments of the reprobate aggra●ated . and reprobate doe increase : and that they shal be greater and more grieuous , after the latter iudgement , then they are at this present .

Theophilus .

Saint Péeter doth giue vs most euident witnesse , writing of the wicked and reprobate after this manner : howe will God spare them , if he haue not spared 2. Peter . 2. 2. 4. the Angels that haue sinned : but hath cast them down into hell , & deliuered them into chaynes of darkenesse , to be kept vnto iudgement ? And by and by after he saith moreouer : the Lorde knoweth howe to deliuer the godly out of temptation , and howe to reserue the vniust vnto the day of iudgement . We cannot deny , but that the diuels 2. Peter . 2. b. 9 and reprobate are alreadie in torment , and but that they are alreadie drowned in the bottome of hell , sith that they are reiected of God , & that they are in his wrath ● indignation . But yet neuerthelesse by the words of saint Peter we may easely vnderstand that they doe attend and ●ari● for yet , a certeine more grieuous iudgement , & gods anger more fearefull then they haue féeled . But for to make thée to vnderstand more plainely that which I thinke , I will expounde it vnto thée by a similitude and comparison taken of the very words of S. Peter . When a malefactor hath committed some certein great cryme , worthy of death The beginning of gods iudgment & grieuous punishment , there is no doubt , but that he féeleth his condempnation in his conscience , assone as he hath committed the euil déede . He hath his conscience which is his Conscience . C●nsc●●ncia 〈◊〉 ●●st●● . accusor : for a witnesse : for a iudge and for a hangeman : and it can be none otherwise . His conscience ●yteth and I●●●nal . Sa●y . 13. Cur tamen hos tu . Euasisse pute● quos d●●● cons●●● sacti . Meus reddit attonitos , & surdo verbere c●dit . Occultum qu● ti●nt● an●mum tortore st●gellū . Item . Exemplo qu●d cunque malo committitur ipsi . Displicet autori prima haec est vl●●● , quod se Iudi●● nemo no●●ns absoluitur . Item . Nocte d●●que suum gestat ●n pectore testem . Spartano cut dam respond●t Pythia ●ates Deut. 28. c. 15. accuseth him . Afterwardes he commeth to be vanquished of hys misdéedes , by his owne proper witnesse , which avayleth more then a thousand witnesses . And after it hath vanquished hym , it condempneth him . And euen as it constrayneth them to witnesse against themselues , so it constrayneth them , to condempne themselues , insomuch that although all the Angels and all the men of the worlde , woulde cleare them and pronounce them to be righteous and iust , yet neuerthelesse they cannot absolue and cleare themselues , nor auoide their owne iudgement . Now after the sentence giuen , it must be that it be put in execution , and that the malefactor be deliuered into the hands of the hangeman : the which he néede not to séeke farre , nor out of himselfe . His conscience with the rest , doth yet that office : the which whippeth and tormenteth him so cruelly that he cannot haue rest day nor night . If he sée any talke together , he thinketh they talke of hym . If he sée but a leafe of a trée to wagge he thinketh that they are seriants sent for to take and carie him to prison . If he thinke to sléepe and take rest , he dreameth that he is in the handes of the iudge which sendeth him to the hangeman , and that they doe leade him to the gallowes . And in waking and sléeping , he ceaseth not to imagine and thinke of hangemen , ●ortures and Gybettes : Wherefore the Prophete hath not saide without a cause : That the wicked are like the raging Sea , that cannot rest , whose water ●ometh with the myre and grauell .

Euen so the wicked haue no peace , saith the Lorde . Esa. 57. d. 20. Genes. 4. b. 8 , Mat. 27. ● . ● . Act. ● . c. 1● . Haue we not the example verie euident in Caine and in Iudas ? From whence procéeded that violence of mans conscience but from GOD ? Which maketh hys enimyes to féele hys iudgement and his furour , in such sort that they themselues cannot beare it ? But are constrayned to condempne them selues and despaire : whiche is a certeine witnesse that there is a iudgement and ● God vnto whome we must render accompte . The which The witnesse of conscience , that there is a GOD . we ought all to vnderstande and knowe , although wée should neuer heare speaking of God , nor of his holy scriptures : and although we shoulde haue none other witnes but the same heré : the which God hath naturally printed into the heart of euery one , the which ought well to suffice vs . For as saint Iohn saith : if but hearts condemne 1. Iohn . 3. d. 20 vs , God is greater then our harts and knoweth all things . That is as much as if he had saide , if we ourselues doe condemne vs , may not God well condemyne vs ? Sith that we haue such a feare and such a horrour doeth not our heart admonish vs sufficiently , that we haue a superiour and gouernour which will not suffer such thinges ? Sith that there is not so great a Prince , not so great a Tyrant , which feeleth not that hell in his conscience . Although there be not a man vppon the earth aboue him of whome he may be afraide . Doest thou nowe see , howe the hell The beginning of hell and of Paradise . of the wicked beginneth alreadie in him , here in 〈◊〉 worlde ? The which our Lorde Iesus Christ , woulde not haue vs to be ignorant off , saying : be that beléeueth in the Iohn . 3. 5. 6. sonne of God , hath eternall life , and shall not tast of death . For he is alreadie passed from death to life , but he that beléeueth not in the sonne of God , he is alreadie iudged and condem●ned . Doth he not shewe vs here with the finger howe the faithfull beginneth alreadie his paradise in this worlde , and the infidell and vnfaithfull hys hell .

Hillarius .

There is nothing more certeine then that which thou speakest . And although we had not the witnesses of the Scriptures , wee haue the witnesse of nature , printed into the hearts of all , which hath constrained The Fu●yes and she diuells Iuuenal . Sat. 13 ●ug . Aene. 6 Cic. in ora● . pro Piso . the Poets to inuent and finde out that fayning of the furies , the which we may call she diuelles . They do assigne their habitation in the helles , and say that they do torment the wicked and reprobate people , most horribly aswell in this worlde , as in the other . By the which they vnderstand none other thing , but the torments and assaltes of the euill conscience , and that worme which dyeth not , The worme of conscience Esa. 66. g. 24 Mar. 9. g. 41 but gnaweth and deuoureth incessauntly .

Theophilus .

I doubt not . But let vs sée how y●●el encreaseth day by day . If the malefactor be alredy so much tormented before that the Iudge hath layde his handes vpon him , before that he be put in prison , before that he hath ben on the racke , vanquished , iudged and condem●ned : Let vs thinke what torment he ought to haue , beeing in prison , after that his processe is made and concluded , looking & tarying for his sentence & cruel death euery houre . In what anguish thinkest thou that he is in ? Doest thou thinke that the horror that he hath of the looking for of the torments , which are prepared for him , are vnto him a great deale lesse paine , then the torments and the death that hée looketh for ?

Eusebius .

Truely I beléeue that there is no great difference , & that he dyeth so many times , as he liueth houres and minutes .

Theophilus .

Thou séest howe hée is already iudged , and yet hée is not . He is sufficiently iudged and condemned as to himselfe , sith that he hath his conscience , his confession , his witnesse and his processe against himselfe , and that he accompteth himselfe alredy as dead . But neuerthelesse , there is yet a more greater horror to be brought to iudgement , to heare the sentence of his Iudge , to be condemned and executed openly , notwithstanding that he is already sufficiently condemned being in the prison , yet neuertheles the Iudge must pronounce openly his last sentence : & that his iudgement be put in execution . As much may wée say The degrees of the Iudgement of God . of the Diuels and reprobate . Whilest that the wicked doe liue héere in this worlde , they are lyke vnto malefactors , before that they are apprehended and taken . When God calleth them from this worlde , hée cyteth them before hym , ●or to appeare in iudgement : And they are as though they were cast in prison , lookinge for their latter sentence , which shall bee giuen them in that great ●aye , in which all processe , all causes and appeales shall ende . Beholde the cause wherefore Sainct Peter maketh 2. Pet. 2. 2. 4 mention of the bondes and chaines , with which GOD bindeth the diuels , which he hath reserued to his iudgement , vsing humaine and materiall comparisons , for to declare vnto vs the heauenly & spirituall things . That is the cause wherefore the wicked spirites doe pray vnto Iesus Christ , that hée will not sende them into the déepe , complaininge Mat. 8. d. 29 Mar. 5. 2. 7 and lamentinge , bicause that they did féele by his comming their iudgement to approch nigh . And therefore they cried : O Iesu thou sonne of Dauid , art thou come hether , to torment vs before our time be come ? We cannot doubt but that they were already tormented before , as the malefactor , which is in the ●●ockes and chaines . But they haue dreadful feare when they do sée their Iudge , and that they doe féele their last sentence to drawe nigh .

Thomas .

It is to be meruailed at , how the one of the matters bringeth in the other , and giueth vnderstandinge of it . Thou hast deliuered me from one great doubt , & thou The estate of the soules after they be seperated from the bodye hast instructed me how I ought to aunswere vnto a very hard question , the which was propunded vnto me not long a goe : that is to say . If after that the soule is seperated from the body , whether that it goeth straight way into Paradise , or into hell ? For if it goeth into Paradise , or into hell , it seemeth that the iudgement is alredy done , & that we must tary no longer for it : or if we ought to looke and tary for an other , that the soules of the faithfull or vnfaythfull , haue not yet a place assigned vnto them , for to receyue felicitie or malediction . And therefore some doe saye , that they sleepe vntill that great iourney . But thou hast taken from mée the doubt , and hast satisfied mee thorowly .

Theophilus .

Wee must not bee abashed , althoughe those that sleepe doe dreame . But we ought rather to bee The sleepers abashed , to see those that be awake to dreame , and to beleeue and giue credite vnto the dreames of the sleepers . For if it were so , the woorkes of God , agaynst their nature , should rather diminish then increase and th● faythfull ought more to feare the corporall de 〈◊〉 then th● vnfaythfull : For by the death , the vnfaythfull should bée at rest , and the faythfull shoulde bée depriued from that portion of the eternall felicitie , the which they haue alredy tasted off in this world , the which they ought to haue mor amply , after that they be delyuered from the prison of this mortall body . I beléeue most assure●ly , that if Sainct Paul had thought that hée must haue slepte so longe 〈◊〉 in bodye and soule , after his decease , wythout hauing more ●●●ple fruition of the heauenly goodnesse and ioyes , then hée had in this worlde , that hée would neuer haue sayde . What to choose I wotto not : I am constrayned of two Philip. 1 , c. 22. thinges , I desire to be loosed , and to bee wyth Christ which thing is best of all . Neuerthelesse to abyde in the fleshe is more néedfull for you . For in stéede to receyue more greater goodnesse as hée desired , hée was ●●mpayred and made worse : and that portion of the heauenlye goodnesse that hée had already tasted off , lyuing in thys bodye , was better for him , then to bée altogether spoyled of it , and to sléepe , beeing insensible as a stone , two or thrée thousande yeares .

Hillarius .

Cycero was but a Panim and an heathen man , who was not very certeine nor assured of the eternall lyfe , nor perfectly resolued of the immortalytie of the soules , but yet neuerthelesse hee sayth , that he would not lyue nyntie yeares , in such sorte , that after that he had depassed thrée score yeares , hée shoulde sléepe the residue of Tus● . q. ●● . ● nentie yeares : But whiche is more , hée addeth is that matter : the Hogges woulde not desyre that , muche lesse I By that accompte , hée esteemeth the lyfe of Hogs better then that of man , all the whyle as hée abydeth a sléepe : bycause that the sleeper is an Image of death , The Image of death . the whiche alwayes representeth hymselfe in sléeping .

Theophilus .

And therefore I dooe conclude , that notwithstandinge that the Lorde by hys prouydence hath constituted and appointed that the bodyes doe sléepe in the earth , as in their hedde , vntyll the resurrectyon , that the number of their bretheren shal be fulfilled , yet neuertheles the faithful nor the vnfaithfull , neuer are without their Paradise , & their hell : the which the more as they doe approch to their consummation & ende , so much the more doe they encrease & augment , vntill such time as they are come vntill the latter degrée of felicit●e or infelicitie : bene●iction or malediction .

Thomas ,

After the same manner as thou procéedest , thou wilt leaue vs neither Lymbe nor Purgatory .

Theophilus .

As touching the Lymbe , if one doe take it for the bosome of Abraham , and the condition of the ●uncient fathers , which haue bene before the comming of Iesus Christ . I will not much dispute of the wordes , if we agrée in the thing . I am well contented to confesse , that the condition of the auncientes , as well those that bée lining as those that bée dead , compared vnto ours , in respect of the same , may be estéemed as a prison , in price of a 2 , Cor. 5. palaice : If we doe beholde the shadowes and figures , vnder whose darknesse they haue bene deteyned and kept , in respect of vs : and the seruitude and bondage of the Mosaicall lawe , vsinge suche comparisons as Sainct Paul : Gas● 4. ● . 2 who compareth all this auncient people vnto young children , which are vnder their Tutor and Master : and vnto seruauntes which are vnder the feare of their Master , in comparison of the Christian people : the which hée compaseth vnto the true natural & perfect children , which are already out of bondage & gouernment , saying , that they haue not receiued the spirit of bondage & feare , but the spirit of adoption & of libertie , Vpon which we ought to note , that the Ro● . ● , ● . ●● Apostle denieth not simply , but that those good auncient fathers haue had the same spirit of adoption and of libertie , as we haue receiued , & but that they were the sonnes of God , & as perfect in their estate & condition , altogether as wée . But for to magnifie the vertue & glory of Iesus Christ , meaneth to shew vnto vs that the goodnesse that we haue receiued by him in his comming , are ●●ut any comparison a great deale more excellent : insomuch y● one may cal their light darknes , in regarde of ours : as he calleth that of Moses , in comparison 2. Cor. 3 of that of Iesus Christ . Touching the Purgatory , I haue already sufficiently declared what I thincke of it . And I do not sée that the place that is alledged of the booke The insufficiencie of the booke of the Machabees for to proue Purgatory . The example of Iudas of the Machabees , is sufficient for to confirme it : although that the booke be very auncient and worthy of credite and to be beléeued . For although that Iudas Machabeus had done that which is there recited , it followeth not therfore that we are bound to doe the lyke . For the perticuler examples of some , are no generall rules for all : euen as I haue alredy touched , speaking of the example of Zipphora . Afterwardes , that witnesse is all alone , & is there recyted , more for to allowe the resurrection , and for a publike witnesse of repentaunce , then for to induce to praye for the dead , as promisinge deliueraunce from Purgatory , vnto those for whom it is offered .

Eusebius .

It is very true that the text sayth expressely that Iudas Machabeus dooinge the same , had a holy and a deuoute thought of the resurrection , but it is sayde immediatly afterwardes : that the aduise and thought to praye for the dead , to the ende they may bée deliuered from their sinnes , is holy and well done .

Theophilus .

Yet the same concludeth nothing , for the Purgatory . For according to your doctrine , the soules which are in Purgatorye , are alreadye deliuered from their sinnes , and there resteth no more but the paine . And therefore wée should rather saye , Vt à poems saluantur , that is to saye , that they maye bée deliuered from paines , then : Vt à peccatis saluantur : that they may bée deliuered from sinnes .

Eusebius .

Thou doest not consider that sinne conteineth two things : to wit , the faulte and the paine . I confesse , Payne & faulte that the true Christians , thorow the faith in Iesus Christ , are deliuered from the fault . But it followeth not therefore , but that they must yet beare the paine and satisfie in Purgatory .

Theophilus .

Whereto then serueth vs Iesus Christ . And whereto prof●teth us the forgiuenesse of our sinnes .

Eusebius ,

Iesus Christ serueth vs to abolish the originall s●●ne and the fault of our sinnes , that they make vs not culpable of eternall damnation , at the iudgement of God : and to mitigate and make lesse the paine , the which we haue merited and deserued .

Theophilus .

I can vnderstande none other thing by Grace but halfe thy speaking , but that God is as a prince , who at the request of one of his very friendes , or of the friende of the Malefactor , sheweth grace vnto the Malefactor , vpon such condition , that if he haue deserued to bée burned , or to bée put vppon the whéele , that hée shoulde haue onely but his head cut off : or if he had deserued to haue had his head cut off , that hée should haue but one of his eares cutte off , or that hée should bée but onely whipped : or that he should be raunsomed with some peece of money , the which he was bound to pay , yet besides his grace and pardon . Doest thou estéeme and thinke such grace and pardon to bée whole and perfect ? or whether thou wilt iudge that the Prince had wholy pardoned the Malefactor ?

Hillarius .

Not I.

Eusebius .

Is not that sufficient inough , that Iesus Christ hath deliuered vs from eternall dampnation , and that wée doe the rest if wée will : or otherwise we should be saued to good cheape .

Hillarius .

Art thou afraide of that Eusebius ? or art thou angry and not well content with the goodnesse that God would doe vnto vs ?

Theophilus .

Beholde Eusebius , what Iesus Christ thou makest for vs , and what credite thou giuest him towards God his Father . If he cannot obteine for vs perfect grace , Halfe a sauiour . and ful forgiuenesse from paine & fault , he is not a perfect Sauiour . And God is not God . For your owne Doctors do witnesse , & namely Raymond , who as oftentimes as God Raymond . pardoneth any thing vnto any one , he pardoneth him wholy . For otherwise God worketh not perfectly . Whervpon Vnde versus Gratta magna Det , ventam non dimidiabit Aut nihil aut totum prop●tiando d●bi● . they doe alledge the Verses which I haue already once spoken off .

Hillarius .

By that accompt Iesus Christ should not haue so much power & credit as the Pope , who by his Buls and pardons , promiseth ful forgiuenesse of paine and fault . Graunt at the least as much to the pardon of Iesus The Pope more puissant then Christ . God compared vnto tyrants Christ , as vnto the Buls and pardons of the Pope .

Thomas .

Take héede Eusebius , thou make not God a Tyrant : who béeing not content to chastice & punish the revels and reprobate , cannot pardon those which demaund grace and mercye , whatsoeuer request one doe make vnto him , but that he kéepeth still some roote of ve●geaunce , without forgetting the iniurye that hath bene done vnto him , but that hée receiue satisfaction and recompence , either on his body or his goods . The heauenly Father 1. Tim. 2. b. 6 béeing content with the raunsome of his sonne Iesus Christ , for whose loue he hath defaced & rent in péeces our bond , that our debtes and sinnes doe come no more in remembraunce : or otherwise he should not be true in hys promises , which he hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes and seruauntes .

Eusebius .

To what purpose is it then written . That it is a good thing to pray for the dead ?

Theophilus .

Sith that the booke is not allowed nor receiued for autenticke in the true Church , that shoulde bée great folly to stay vpon it any longer , if I would not beare with thine infirmitie , & content thée more fully . I do leaue off to alledge a coniecture very like vnto that which I haue spoken off .

Thomas .

Put it foorth .

Theophilus .

I haue somtimes thought , that that proposition , which is as a conclusion , taken out of the history going before , was not put by the author of the sayd booke : but rather of some studiou● reader , which hath no●ed the same in the margent , and that it hath bene added to the text , as it oftentimes happ●neth in many good authors . And I am not alone in that opinion but many wise and learned men besides mée . And if one doe examine the thing well , it is easy to sée , that the continuation of the narration séemeth to be broken & marred , & that the sentence hath ben put in , the which was a curtein annotation & consequence , which some did make vpon the text : as it oftentimes happeneth in reading the bookes , & noting the places the which we would haue to serue vs .

Eusebius .

What reason hast thou for to proue the same ?

Theophilus .

First this , for that I sée oftentimes the examples and copyes of many bookes to varye : the which varietie oftentimes is happened for such cause . Furthermore , I consider that in that time there was no mention made of Purgatorye . Wherefore if wée must praye for the dead , it is most lykest , that the prayer should haue bene ordeyned to that ende that they shoulde be deliuered from the Lymbes , if there had bene any , then from the paines Prayers for the resurrection of Purgatory : or for the comming of Iesus Christ and the resurrection of the flesh . But I doe not finde in all the holy Scripture , as well of the olde as of the newe Testament , that euer the Patriarches , Prophetes and Apostles , haue instituted or ordeyned , that one shoulde make anye speciall or perticuler prayers , for the dead , neither for to drawe them from the Lymbes nor from Purgatorye , nor for the resurrection of their bodyes . I will not denye , but that the holy Fathers haue greatly desired the comming of Iesus Christ , and but that according to their desire they haue made earnest prayers and requestes vnto God , euen as we doe praye dayly , that Gods kingdome may come , desiringe generally , all that which apperteineth to the fulfilling of the same . But it followeth not therefore , that wée must especially ordeine perticuler prayers in the church , for to demaund perticulerly all things apperteining vnto the kingdome , & depending of the same . For in making such prayers , wée regard not our selues nor our neighbour , but onely the glory of God : the which we desire to be eralted & magnified , without consideration of our persons nor of others , but insomuch as our health & saluation is ioyned together with the glory & ●raltation of his kingdome : But not in such sort that it is required or requisite to vse any other manner of praiers , thō those of which we haue the expresse worde of God , and the examples of the true seruants of God . And if it should haue bene otherwise , it is impossible that God would haue omitted it , without making expresse mention in his holy scriptures , as I haue alredy sufficiently declared vnto thée by reasons so euident , that none can gaine say them .

Eusebius .

Thou wilt then conclude for a full resolution that in the worde of God is no mention made of Purgatory , nor of prayers for the deade ? and that we haue no néede to pray for them ?

Theophilus .

I will abide firme and stedfast in that sentence , vntill such time as I haue founde aucthoritie , or example in the holy scripture worthy to be followed : the which I am certeine , that one shal not finde : except peraduenture we woulde pray for the deade , euen as Daniel , and other good Prophets , and princes of Iuda haue made confession and prayers for their sinnes , and those of their fathers and predecessors : not How one ma● pray for the dead Daniel , 9 , ● 4. Reg , 22. d 2. Cor 34. f to that end that God shoulde pardon those which were already deade . For they cannot put to more , nor take away any thing from them , sith that they were alreadie before their Iudge : But they praied to that ende that God should not impute vnto them the sinnes of their fathers . Eusebius . Howe shoulde he impute them ? sith that he hath said by his Prophet : The sonne shall not beare the fathers Ezech , 18. e. 20 offences , but the soule that sinneth shall dye .

Theophilus .

I doe agrée to thée , that if the father hath How the child beareth the offc̄ce of his father . béene wicked and the sonne do turne from his iniquitie not willing to followe it , that the iniquitie of the father cannot hurt hym , no more then his righteousnesse can profite him , if the father hath béene a good man & the sonne wicked : But when the sonne is a folower of his fathers iniquitie , sith that by hys doings he alloweth it , he yeldeth himselfe culpable not onely of his owne , but of hys fathers also , to the which he subscriveth & augmenteth it . And of those the Lord speaketh when he saith : that he wil visite the sinne of the fathers vpon the children vnto the Exo. 20. a 5 thirde and fourth generation of them that hate him . Therfore , when the Lordo did threaten to punish hys people , and that he yeldeth the causes of his yre and wrath , he 4. Reg. 17 checketh them not onely for the sinnes of the liuing , but heapeth together & rehearseth also al those of their auncestors and predecessors . And our Lord Iesus Christ menaced & threatned the Scribes & Pharises : that al the innocent bloud which was shedde from Abell , shall be required at Mat 23. d 35 Luc , 11 , g , 5● their hands . Wherefore we must not finde it straunge , if the Prophetes and true seruants of God in their confessions & prayers , haue prayed for the sinnes of their fathers and predecessors , that they should not be called to accompt for to kindle and prouoke the wrath of God any more vppon them , the which thing in like manner hath Iudas Machabeus done , as the historye witnesseth , in the which it is written , that they found vnder the cotes of those that were slaiue , iewels that they had taken out of the temple & from 2. Mach 12. f. 4c the Idolles of the Iamnites , which thing is for●idden the Iewes by the lawe . Then euery man saw , that this was the cause wherefore they were slaine . And so euery man gaue thanks vnto the Lorde for hys righteous iudgement which had opened the thing that was hyd . They fel downe also vnto their prayers , and besought God , that the fault which was made , might be put out of remembrance . For we cannot denye , but that sometime , for the sinne of one man alone , God punisheth all the people : As it appeareth Acham . Iosua . 7. c. 18 in Acham . Which defiled his hands at the distruction of Iericho . But how oftentimes hath God punished the cruelty of the fathers and predecessors , vpon their successors and their children ? as doe witnesse as well the historyes as the Prophecies of the Amelechites , Moabites , Amonites , Madianites , Idumeans , Babylonians and of the Israelytes themselues .

Eusebyus .

That which thou saiest should haue some shew , if that place did not make expresse mention of prayer , to the end that those that were deade shoulde be deliuered from their sinnes , as though they themselues had béene yet bound and kept in them .

Theophilus .

Although that the How those that are dead are punished in their successours . dead , in asmuch as they haue alreadie ended their course , haue no more place of repentance , nor of remedy , of whom , we haue certeine witnes in the word of God , yet neuertheles bicause of the coniosiction & felowship which they haue had with their families , or with their people , there is no doubt , but that their sinnes , which do redound vpon others in part , bicause of them , and for which it must be that others do suffer , and that their sinnes be vnto them aggrauated , cannot rightly be called theirs . For notwithstanding that for their part , they haue receiued already punishment , neuertheles they kindred and familyes , as it happened vnto Achab , and to all his house . And we must not thinke that 4. Reg. 10. a. 1. punishment little , sith that oftentymes , the fathers and parents do feare more the dishonour and domage vnto their children and lynage , then their owne , as we do sée sometime by experience in those which are brought to the gallowes , who although they cause them to dye without shewing mercie , yet they thinke it a greate grace and fauour , if one graunt them , that they wil not let their bodyes to hange on the Gibet , for feare of dishonour & infamy : the which yet neuertheles redoundeth more vnto their parents & friends then vnto them . But they forget themselues : or rather they think that they do yet foele & shal féele that dishonour , infamye and publike shame , which shall continue to their infants and lynage . And although that they bée sufficiently tormented with their euill , yet neuerthelesse they féele a great ease and refreshing if they vnderstande that their children haue none euill : & their torment is aggrauated and increased , if they vnderstande the contrarie . For that cause the Prophetes doe threaten not onely the wicked sort of their owne ruine and distruction , but doe foreshewe vnto them that of their children , and the euilles whiche shall happen vnto them , as it appeareth in the prophecy of Esaie against Babylon , and others Esa. 13. & 14. like . But for to stoppe all those euills , and for to appaise the wrath of God kindled vpon vs , as well for our sinnes as those of our fathers , there is no better prayers nor offrings then to runne with true repentance & amendement of life , to implore his mercy . Behold the good prayers for the deade , to that ende that their sinnes be not counted wish ours . Although that it be after whatsoeuer manner & 〈◊〉 wilt take that place , it sufficeth móe at this present , to haue shewed vnto thée , that thou canst not by the same proue thy purgatory , although that the booke shoulde bée of the holy scripture . And if thou wilt giue vnto it any credit , it may better serue thée , for to proue the Lymbe if there be one then the Purgatory . But sith that Iesus Christ is come and that you confesse that he hath drawen the ●athers from the Lymbes , the example of Iudas Machabeus can haue no more place among you : sith that according To pray for the resurrection of the body & the comming of christ to your doctrine , the cause is ceased .

Eusebius ,

Put case , that there were no more neither Lymbe nor Purgatory , can we not at the least pray for the resurrection of the deade ? And for the seconde comming of Iesus Christ , the which we doe looke for , as well as the auncyent fathers haue prayed for the first , and haue desired and sighed after it ?

Theophilus .

We may well pray , as I haue alreadye saide , and aske of God , all that which apperteyneth to the perfection of his kingdome : But to make prayers which are called prayers for the deade , and to pray in perticuler , Apoc. 6. c , 10 that God woulde raise vp againe the bodyes of those which are deade , and that Iesus Christ would soone come to iudgement , I haue no commaundement of God , nor example in all the holy scripture , but rather to the contrary . For when the Lorde aunswered vnto the soules of the saints ( which complayned of their persecutors ) that they shoulde ●arry vntill the number of their bretheren were fulfilled , he doth sufficiently shewe by the same , that he hath prefered the tyme , the which cannot be plucked nor driuen backe . And sith that the thing is altogether certeine and that we are alreadie all assured , what néede is it then to make perticuler praiers ?

Eusebius .

We are asmuch assured , that all thinges which ought to come , are passed by the counsell of God , and that he will giue vs Esa. 40 c. 13 Esa. 14. ● 26 all that which shal be requisite to our helth and saluation : that all the haires of our heade are numbred : and none shall fall to the grounde without his wyll : and his kingdome Mat. 10. d. 29 Luc. 12. ● . 7 shall shall come and shall be exalted aboue all creatures , but we may not leaue off therefore to pray continually ● to demaunde those thinges of God .

Theophilus .

It is an other thing of vs , which are yet in our voiage & earthly peregrination , ● of those which haue alreadie ended their course : vnto whome we can no more add too nor dimynish . For all the while that we are yet in the battaile , we may empaire or amende , and we haue alwayes néede to inuocate and call for the aide of God , both for vs and for our bretheren which are yet in combate & fight with vs . And which is more , God commaundeth vs so to do : not that he Mat. 6. d. 33 & , 7. b. 8 Luc. ● . b. 9 knoweth not better then we , what we do lacke , before we do aske , and that hee is not willing to giue it vs , but hee doth it for to hold and kéepe vs in his feare , & to learne vs to sanctifie his name & to exercise our faith towards him , and our loue towardes our neighboure , whilest that wée may serue him in this mortall peregrination . But after that the voctorie is gotten or lost , and that one is once come and arriued to the hauen and port , to which he must go , the cause and the occasion is no more such .

Eusebius .

Thou hast saide before that the soules of the blessed and the verye Angels were not yet in their full glorie . Also wee cannot denye , but that the bodies of the faithfull that are deade are yet kept in death , sith that they are in corruption , from the which they shal not be 1. Cor. 15. deliuered vntill their resurrection , that death shal be altogether abolished . What euill is it then to pray for the deade , that their bodie may be deliuered from corruption , and that they may haue their perfect consummation in bodie and soule .

Theophilus .

I haue alreadie satisfied thée in that , if thou vnderstandest what difference there is betwéene the lyuing and the deade . And although we had none other thing but that , the scripture maketh no expresse commasidement , that ought to suffice thée , For if it were a question To pray for the Sainctes which are in Paradise . to worke subtilly and sophistically in the worde of god , I shoulde well haue asmuch reason to put forth , that wée must make prayers in perticuler , for the virgin Marye : for all the Prophets , Apostles , Saints , and Saintes of Paradise : Yea for the Angells , and for Iesus Christ himselfe .

Hilla●ius .

It shoulde be requisite then by that accompt , to make out of hand a newe Letany . In stéede where the Pr●estes do sing , saint Michael , pray for vs : A nevy Letany saint Mary mother of God , pray for vs : saint Peter , pray for vs : and so consequently of others , we must say , O Lorde we pray and beseech thée , for saint Michael , saint Gabriel , saint Mary , saint Peter , saint Paul , ●nd ●or all the saints and saintes of Paradise , that thou do put them in full ●oye , and perfect ●elicitie , and that th●u ●aise vp their bodyes to eternall glorie .

Theophilus .

If our d●e examine well the greatest part of the prayers , which the priestes make for the deade , euen as they are written in their Messell and Breuiaries , one shal be constrained ●o confesse that such prayers cannot be made in the name of others then of those whome they do inuocate and call vpon in their Letanyes , and that they be of like condition .

Hillarius .

I haue heard the Cordeliers mocke at Frier Fryer Christopher . Masse of Req●●em for the Sainctes . Christofer , which was one of their order and couent , b●cause that he did sing the Masse of Requiem , for the Saints and Saintes of Paradise . But if he had knowen howe to defende his cause , it had not béene without reas●n . For he might haue verie wel alledged for his warrant , the Memento of the dead , and almost all the masse of Requiem , and other like prayers which seemed not to haue ●en made to any other end , then to pray for the saints which are in rest . This ma●ster Dector who would find out for vs a newe manner to pray for the dead , vnder ●olour of the resurrection & of the comming of Iesus Christ , it came well for him , for to mainte●●e & vphold his cause against the other Cordeliers , which mocked him .

Thomas .

Of what Couent was that Frier Christofer :

Hillarius .

Of the Couent of Riue at Geneua .

Thomas ,

Wherfore did he sing the Masse of Requiem , for the saintes ?

Hillarius

Thou oughtest to vnderstand that he was a man so expert in Theology , and so wel exercised in bookes , that he knewe not very well how to reade in his owne Missell and Brauerie . Wherefore he could sing but the Masse of Requiem , the which with great laboure he had learned by rote of heart , and it serued him as a plaister for all sores , and diseases .

Theophilus .

He did better then all the others . For as there is but one baptisme of Iesus Christ One onely baptisme of Iesus Christ . and not the baptisme of saint Peter , of S. Paul , nor of any other whatsoeuer it be , so there is but one supper of Iesus Christ . There is not of saint Fraunces , saint Tybaud , saint Roch , and of other like innumerable . Nowe if the Masse be in stéede of the supper , there ought to bée but one : and we ought not to say the Masse of saint Paul , saint Iames and of other saints , no more then of the supper and of the Baptisme .

Thomas .

And howe dyd he make his masse of Requiem agrée with the saints ?

Hillarius .

In stéede where others doe name those , in whose name they do sing the Masse in their Mementos and Oremus , he dyd but chaunge the names , and name those of the saints vnder the tytle of which he ought to sing Masse , euen as he should haue done for one that is dead . Thomas . I doe vnderstand his practise nowe . He was not altogether without wit. And as much the Masse of Requiem serued him all alone , as all the other did to his compagnions .

Hillarius .

All one .

Thomas .

But who is that doctor of whom thou speakest off ?

Hillarius .

It is Monsiour the Carolus . doubtful , which is come out of the Charbo●iere or Cole-house of Parys , I would haue said from Sorbonne . Thomas .

What is his name ?

Hillarius .

I would name hym but that I feare I shal do him pleasure .

Thomas .

Pleasure ? nay rather displeasure ?

Hillarius .

I doe not tel scorne to speake , For thou oughtest to vnderstand , that the man , of whom I haue told thée is so much ambitious & couetous of name & fame , that it is al one to him , so that men speake of him .

And I beléeue , that if hée coulde obteine that by any such prooues , as that of Herostratus , who burned the 〈◊〉 of Diana the Ephesian , for to make himselfe to Horostratus 〈◊〉 spoken off , he woulde doe no lesse . And I woulde to God that he did no worse , then he . For Herostratus burned a temple full of Idols , which caused al Asia to commit Idolatrie . But this fellowe here , as the Gyants dyd , The war of the Gyants would make war against the heauen : fight against God : burne his temple , and resist the holy Ghost , and the truth that he hath knowen .

Theophilus .

He hath very well declared it in all places where he hath beene : But god hath alwayes confounded him , with all his enterprises . God haue mercy on him , except he be of those which sinne vnto death , for whom saint Iohn hath written that we must Sinne vnto death . 1. Iohn , 5. d. 16 Ismael . Genes. 16. c. 12 , not pray for . I can giue him no fitter a name , then that of Ismael , whose hand is against al men , and al mens hands against him .

Hillarius .

It is impossible to finde out a better comparison . For he could neuer agrée with any man , among those with whom he hath liued & dwelled , whether thy were Gospellers or papistes : but hath troubled them all , and they haue béene constrayned to chase and driue him away from them , as a plague and troubler of the Church .

Theophilus .

Therefore the true church of Iesus Christ hath béene constrayned to driue him out of hir house , Gal. 4. d. 30 euen as Sara did driue away Ismael with his mother Agar , bicause that he mocked hir sonne Isaac , in such manner Sara and Agar . Isaac & Ismael . Genes 21. b , 9 as this fellowe here alwayes mocked the true children of God . And therefore the Church could not acknoledge him for hir lawfull sonne , but sent him out after his mother Agar . For he is more fitter for the Sinagog , then for the Church .

Hillarius .

What thinkest thou , who hath induced and persuaded him to propounde so many curious , vaine and vnprofitable questions , for to trouble that poore church of Lausanne , of which he thought to haue beene made bishop , The church of Lausanne . and was alreadie by his imagination . Bicause that hée was already olde , and that he had a gray heard , I am abashed how that he could not thincke well that those subtile Sorbonists did not agrée with that poore Church , the which was yet tender and newly planted , and but a grasse .

Theophilus .

I doe leaue the iudgement of the heart 3. Reg. 2. g 44 Psal. 139. b. 23 Act. 1. d. 24 vnto God , who knoweth it : But as farre as I can iudge by his workes , and by his beginning , procéeding and ending , I cannot perceiue and vnderstand but that hée dyd it for two causes chiefly . Firste to please the Papistes , Apostles of the circumcis●on . Gal. 5. a Phil. 3. a euen as the Apostles of the circumcision went about and endeuoured themselues to please the Iewes , and to holde with them , for to auoide the crosse and persecution , and to haue their fauour , and for to make the true Apostles of Iesus Christ more odious vnto all the world . The other is , for to shew himselfe , and for to get the brute and report that he was a wise man , more expert and of more knowledge , then all other preachers , and that there was Vayne glory none that searched out and vnderstood the holy Scripture so profoundly as hée . For he was angry that he dyd sée others , which had put their life in daunger for the glory of God , and the edifiyng of the Church to be of some estimation towards the good . And therefore he would inuent a certein new fashion , proper vnto himselfe alone , to the end that he should not séeme that he had brought no new thing , but that he had learned some thing of others . Therefore he was ashamed to follow their way , and went about but to renue all things , for to let men to vnderstande , that all that which others had made , was nothing worth , but that he was the great reformer of Churches , and yet neuerthelesse be toke no care to reforme the wicked manners .

Hillarius .

I haue vnderstanded that he called the good ministers , skirmishers , who , for to aduance the gospel , haue Skirmi●shers . broken the first I●e or giuen the first onset , and which haue put their heades , there where he dareth not to put his litle finger .

Theophilus .

Also he himselfe hath sayd , in dispising others , that he was not of those small skirmishers . But it was answered him to the contray , that he auailed then nothing in warre , & that he was not worthy to be taken for a good souldier : For a good champion must know to doo all thinges , and that he must bée found amongest the blowes and in the skirmishes and alaromes , not onely at the retraict , and to receiue wages . He dispised the simplicitie of the holy Scripture , and calleth the Theology inferiour and base , and would forge and inuent for vs a metaphisicall The metaphisicall Theology . Theology .

Hillarius .

Also peraduenture he would by the same as wel extract the fifth essence of the holy Scriptures , as the Alcumists do of mettals . At the least , I doubt not but that it will happen of his metaphisicall Theology , as of the Alcumy , which hath a faire shew & to be of great value , but it consumeth away into smoke . He speaketh neuertheles against the Purgatory of Priestes . Wherefore I am abashed of that which I haue heard spoken , that at this present he endeuoureth himselfe to set it vpp againe in that poore towne of Metz , the which he is gone to trouble , when he vnderstood that Iesus Christ would raigne there : But I greatly doubt , that the kitchin constraineth him to the same . For otherwise the har●th woulde be colde . But hée may as well doe that , as to be angry & pleased againe , and so many times to chaunge and rechaunge his coate .

Theophilus .

We may well make him such a monster , as Euse . de pra e●an . ●● . 14. ca. 2 Eusebius Cesariensis did make of the Philosopher Archesilaus , in his bookes of the preparation of the Gospell , and Archesilaus . to compare it to him , of whom he writeth in these words . They sayd of him , that as touchinge his fore partes , hée was Plato , and as to the hinder partes , Pyrro , & the middle Diodorus . For he hath troubled and marred the eloquence of Plato , thorow the subtilties and sophistries of the Philosopher Diodorus , and by the subtile disputations of Pyrrho : and now saying this , by and by that , he was easily rolled and lead now héere and now there , as a man not knowing any thing , and hauinge no rest : And yet neuerthelesse he séemeth thorow the shadow of eloquence , that he knoweth much : & he was neuer in that minde , that he would say twice one thing , and that hee woulde abide firme and steedfast in one opinion . For hée estéemed not a man to be ingenious and wittie , which preserued & continued in one matter and doctrine . And therefore he was called a cauiller , sophister and troubler , which knew nothing , and would not that others should perceiue any thing . He troubled euery one thorow his sophistries , & was as the serpent called Hydra . Hydra , which hath seauen heads : But he cutteth them off with his owne swoord , speaking agaynst & gainsaying his owne Doctrine , denying that whiche hee hath affirmed , and destroyinge that whiche hee before hath buylded .

Hillarius .

It is impossible to painte him out better . For Gerion . he is as a Gerion with thrée bodies . He is a Papist , an Euangelist and a Lutherian . He is a Sophister and a Sorbonist , and yet he would be accompted for a faithfull and a Christian , and holdeth himselfe neither to the one nor yet to the other . Hydra had neuer so many heads , as hée hath of opinions contrary the one to the other , and hée néeded none other Hercules for to cut them off , then himselfe . For the truth which GOD hath compelled him to speake , as vnto the wicked spiri●es , is a Hercules sufficient Hercules . inough for to vanquish the false doctrine , that he now mainteineth .

Theophilus .

By the same thou maist know the studye Mat. 8. b. 14. Ma●. 1. c. 29 of Sathan , and how many wayes he transfigureth himselfe into an Angell of light : and what is the nature of the 2. Cor. 11. d. 1● false Prophets . God by all his Prophets & Apostles hath commended to vs the faith in him , and the loue towardes A signe for to iudge the false and true Prophets . the liuing , without making any mention that we shuld haue care of the dead . The Diuell to the contrarye , by his false Prophetes and Apostles , endeuoureth himselfe with all his power , to drawe vs from the fayth , vnto vayne Ceremonies , and from the care that wée ought to haue of the liuinge and of the poore members of IESUS CHRIST , which with vs doe suffer want and indigence , for to make vs staye after the deade . They bring them meat and drinke , and suffer the poore Christian bretheren which are round about them to dye for hunger . This miserable Doctor , perceiuing that he could not A new transfiguration of Sathan . ther where he was , maintein the Purgatory of the Priests , and their broiling of soules , be would set vp a new Purgatory for the body . But when he perceiued that he could not bring it about , he is retourned to cary a coale to the same Purgatory for the body . of the Priests , for to heate it againe . Wherein he manifestly declareth , what faith and conscience he hath , & how much one ought to trust to his doctrine .

Hillarius .

Mée thinketh , that he should haue no lesse appearance , to build a Purgatory for the body , then the Priestes to haue builded one for the soules . For if there be any reason , wherefore the soules ought to suffer for their sinnes , after that man is dead , me thinketh that the body ought not to bée quit and frée , but that he hath more merited it , bicause that he was the occasion thorow his flesh , and the instrument for to make the soulé to sinne . Wherefore if you thincke Eusebius , that God should be vniust , as thou hast alledged , if he doe not punish the soules of the sinners in Purgatory , he should be no lesse , if he doe not punish the bodyes in lyke manner , which haue ben alwayes companions & instruments to the soules , in all the sinnes that they haue committed . And therefore God wil not onely punish the soules of the reprobate in hel fire , but the bodies also : euen as be will glorifie the elect in body and soule , in the resurrection of the Iustes .

Theophilus .

Also this good Doctor would giue vs to vnderstand , sithence that he hath entred into that dreaming , that all the prayers which the Church made in the name of the dead , were for the bodyes , and for their resurrection , and not for the soules : and condempneth the Priestes and their Purgatory , and be made no doubt to saye , that we must pray for the Saintes : for Saint Peter , S. Paul , and the others , in such sence as he vnderstandeth , euen as it hath bene touched .

Thomas ,

I doe vnderstand well of whom you speake . I remember , that at the disputation which was holden at Lausanne , he spake cléerely , not onely against the Purgatory of Priestes , but also against the transubstanciacion and corporall presence of Iesus Christ in the hoast .

Theophilus .

It is true , but in the meane time , thou takest no héede of the subtiltie of Sathan , and by what means he would be serued of that Sorbonist doctors . Bicause that Sathan did sée those errors to be already too much vncouered and opened , & that hée had no more hope to vphold them , chiefely in those Churches héere aboutes , hée hath chosen this instrument , for to set foorth that opinion , the which could not serue to any edification , but for to trouble the Church , chiefly in this time now , that the opinions of men are so diuerse , For how goodly a reason soeuer he can alledge , notwithstanding that he condempneth openly the Purgatory of the Priestes , and their suffrages for the dead , yet neuerthelesse , sith that hée putteth foorth that proposition : we must praye for the dead : It were impossible , but that in euery pointe , it should he euill spoken A troublesome doctrine . off and offensiue . For the Idolaters and superstitions , which were yet in their olde errour , touching that matter , doe drawe that proposition to their aduauntage , to the confirmation of their Purgatory , and care not for all his other reasons and sophistries , the which the most part cannot vnderstand , others wil not . It is mough for them that they can say : Monsieur the Doctor hath preached , that we must pray for the dead . They doe arme themselues with that proposition , against the truth , as with a buckler , and doe condemne more boldly the holesome doctrine . The other poore simple people , which haue already some knowledwe of the abuses , were not also without being troubled , fearing to haue ben euill taught . For all could not easily comprehend those sophisticall subtilties , but doe abide in perplexitie . Notwithstanding that that dreame which hée did put foorth , was not newe : It hath alreadye at an other time bene put foorth by others , the which yet neuerthelesse they haue not followed . Those which were best instructed and most firme in the doctrine of the Gospell , although that they had their spirites sharpe inough for to comprehend that which they sayd , yet they were not out of daunger . For sith that this proposition abideth and continneth : we must pray for the dead : And this héere , the Church hath alwayes duely p●ayde for them that they should be deliuered from death : it was much to be feared , that by succession of time , but that they should fall againe to the first errour , and that the Diuell which was driuen away , would retourne againe with seauen other wicked spirites , worse then the first . For after that the vnderstanding of man hath bene corrupted thorowe some false opinion , he is easy to fall agayne , and to withdrawe from Mat. 12. d. 44. his purpose all that whiche approcheth any thinge at all .

Hillarius .

I doubt not , but that the same was the marke , to which Sathan pretented : the which he hath yet better declared , when be induced and perswaded that poore man to returne againe , as the dogge , to eate that which he had vomited , and to bay and ●arke agaynst the ministers of the truth , enforcing and endeuouring himselfe to reedif●e the errours and heresies , which he had before condempned and destroyed .

Theophilus .

It is a great deale better that he declared himselfe what he was , then to dwell in the Church of Iesus Christ for to trouble it , and to ende that that he hath taken in hande . For in stéede , whereas before they did but sing Masse for the dead , whome they presumed to bée deteined and kepte in Purgatorye , they must also sing Masse and offer for the Saintes which are in Paradise , according to his Theologye . For it shoulde haue bene as easie to giue coulour vnto such Masses , as the scholasticall Doctors doe giue vnto those which they doe singe in the name of younge children , which are dead in their innocencie , immediately after their baptisme . Masses for the young children

Thomas .

What néede haue they ? For I beléeue that they will not denye , but that they accompte them for saued .

Theophilus .

They confesse that they are in Paradise ? Tho. dist. 12. li. 4. deffc . enche . Reisersp . de . mor. v●rt . Sermo dom. ● . aduent . and that they haue no néede to doe it for their saluation : But they affirme that it is good yet neuerthelsse to singe Masse for them , for to signifie & witnesse that they are of the Church , & members of his misticall body . And so by that meanes , the Priestes cannot fayle to get money of euery side , both of the olde and younge : or vnder the title of Purgatory , or of the communion of the Church , or of the resurrection of the body , or of the consummation of the eternall selicitie . In so dooing , they must yet at the ende come to pray for Iesus Christ , and to singe masses for him , as for his members , vntill such time as his kingdome hée fully consummated and ended , and that he hath put all his enimies vnder his footstoole .

Thomas ,

Now I haue heard al your matters and wel considered of them , I knowe that we haue bene meruailously abused , Wherefore from hencefoorth I remit and forgiue the Priestes , I will staye my selfe but onelye to the pure word of GOD . As touchinge my voyage , I am come backe agayne . I haue séene that which I desired to knowe . I thincke that Eusebius is as much pressed and ouercome as I , and that hee hath no more greater harneys nor weapons for to defend his Purgatorye nor his Lymbes , Eusebius . It is most certeine that I haue my spirit much troubled with so many matters , and not without cause . But neuerthelesse I haue not yet all disployed and shewed foorth my argumentes & reasons . You haue nowe robbed me of the place whiche I haue propounded vnto you of the booke of the Machabees , vnder the tytle that it was Apocripha : But those that I will propound vnto you now , shal bée taken out of bookes so Autentickes and Canonicall , that you can by no meanes reiect them . And if you can shewe by euydent reasons , that I dooe not alledge them to the purpose , and that they do serue mée nothing at all for to proue my intention , I will confesse my selfe vanquished , and wyll giue you my hand for to be of your side .

Hillarius ,

What pretendest thou to mainteine by them , either the Lymbe of the young children , and the baptisme of women : or the Lymbe of the auncient fathers : or the Purgatory ? For Theophilus hath ouerthrowne this day all that .

Eusebius .

Thou shalt vnderstande it , when thou shalt heare it . But at this time we haue sufficiently inough discussed of the matters at one time , and there r●maineth yet inough for a good while . Yet neuerthelesse I doe hope that we shall sée the ende .

Thomas .

I desire the same very much , and that wée may agrée as soone as shal be possible , that we may all abide and continue of one good resolution .

Theophilus .

God giue vs his grace , as I hope hée will .

THE SVMME OF THE SIXT and last Dialogue .

IN this latter dialogue Eusebius putteth foorth the places of the holy scripture , the which they alleadge commonly for the defence and confirmation of purgatory : to the which Theophilus answereth , and expoundeth them after the true sence of the scripture : and confuteth the false interpretacions of the Sophisters : and declareth many good pointes and places of the holy scripture . It shal be also intreated of the power of the keyes : and howe the Pope and his would stretch them euen to the other worlde . It shal be in like manner spoken , of the Popes power and deite : of ●ubile , and of the vertue of the bulle , pardons and indulgences . Afterwards shal be touched the opinion of them which thinke that there shal be preaching in the other worlde : And a manifestation of Iesus Christ to saluation , for such as haue not knowen him in this world . Wherevpon shal be entreated the place of Saint Peter , touching the preaching of Iesus Christ vnto the deade , & to the spirits that were deteined in prison : & for the end & conclusion of all those matters , the funeralles of purgatory shall be celebrated , and he shal be buried . For that cause this dialogue is called , the Requiescant in pace of purgatory . For he is deade and buryed .

THE SIXT DIALOGVE WHICH is called the Requiescant in pace , of Purgatorye . THOMAS ,

Although friend Eusebius , thou hast resisted Theophilus and Hillarie as much as thou canst , and that thou hast fought valyantlye , yet neuerthelesse thou couldest not so vertuouslye defende thy selfe , but that the forewarde , the winges and the hornes of thy armye , and almost all the whole hoast is discomfyted and ouercome : there resteth no more nowe but the arrierewarde . If it defende it selfe no valyentlyer , and that it bée no better armed then the others , thou shalt carry no good newes to the Pope of that combatte , and thou shalt giue him no greate occasion to receiue thee among his Capitaines , and to reward thée ritchly .

Eusebius .

I doe not fight for the Pope , but for the trueth . It is to me all one who d ee gaine or winne the battaile , so that the victorie abideth with the trueth , and that Iesus doe raigne in his Church .

Theophilus .

I am very glade for the good affection that GOD hath giuen vnto thée , and that thou art not like vnto a heape and company of ambicious and glorious men , who what so euer euill cause that they haue , will neuer confesse them selues ouercome and vanquished , but estéeme their glory more dearer then the same of Iesus Christ .

Eusebius .

It is verye true that at the beginning I was much offended with your wordes . But when I considered that which I haue hearde of you , I knewe not well to which side to turne . You haue alreadye very much ouercome and fayled me , neuerthelesse I haue yet many places of the holye Scriptures , which holde me in suspens , and leaue me in a greate scruple and doubt in my conscience , vntill such time as thou hast shewed me by liuely & euident reasons , that I must vnderstande them otherwise then they haue béene expounded vnto me : or else you shall be constrayned to chaunge your matter , and to denye and vnsay all that you haue saide euen vntill this present time .

Hillarius .

Propounde them all by order , and Theophilus wil addres & guyde thée to the true vnderstanding .

Eusebius .

For to kéepe the better order , I wyll beginne by the olde testament , and afterwards will follow The disposition of this dialogue the newe , after the order by which the bookes of the same are disposed and set , alledging out of euery one of them the pointes which may serue to my matters . I will put forth vnto thée that which Thoby commaunded his Thob . 4. d 18. sonne , saying : Set thy breade and wine vppon the buriall of the righteous . But thou wilt aunswere vnto me , that that booke is Apocripha , or onely Ecclesiasticall , and not The booke of Thobie . Canonicall , as thou hast already done of the same of the Machabees .

Theophilus .

Truely I may aunswere thée so . But although it were Canonicall , where too would it serue for thy matter ?

Eusebius .

Very well , following the interpretacion of Eccius , which expoundeth it of the Almoses for to refresh The exposition of the place of Thoby . the poore , that they should pray vnto God for the saluation of the deade .

Theophilus .

He that woulde followe the exposicions of Eccius , there is not a place in the Bible which he hath not corrupted and marred , for to make it serue to the popish tyranny . In the booke of Thoby , & in that place there , there is no mention made of praying for the dead . And although those words preceded thervnto , he ought rather to haue saide : Set thy breade vppon the buriall of the sinner , then vpon that of the righteous . For the sinners shal haue more neede of such prayers , then the righteous . But he saith altogether contrarye . For hée addeth : eate and drinke not with the sinners and wicked : The which is better expressed by the Greeke , saying : Set thy breade vpon the buriall of the righteous , and giue it not vnto sinners . Wherefore it is most likest to be true , sith that before he hath spoken of Almoses , that he recommendeth by those wordes , chiefely the righteous and faithfull , euen as saint Paul , aboue all other recommendeth those of the houshold of faith . Nowe there are many manners and wayes to bestowe ones breade and wyne vppon the burialles of the righteous : The first is 〈…〉 stowe ones bread & wine vpon the burtial of the righteous Thob●●●●● in burying them honestly , as Thoby did , without sparing that which was there vnto néedefull and requisite . For the Hebrewes by the breade , wyne and water , doe vnderstande all the things necessarie vnto man , and vnto mans life . The other is , when we doe helpe our bretheren , & succour so their necessities : that they dye not for want of vittailes , nor goe downe to the graue without being buried . If we doe otherwise , we kill them , when we f●●de them not , and that they do dye through our default . The thirde is when we comfort thorowe Almoses the children and friendes of the deade . Then we shed foorth our breade and wine vpon their burialles , behold the holy water that they desire . And it is a great deale better to doe after that sort , then to playe the glutton with the gluttons , drunkerds and wicked . But the manner of spech is somewhat obscure , bicause that the booke , notwithstanding that it was written in Greeke , yet neuerthelesse it keepeth the phrases and manners of the Hebrew speach .

Hillarius .

He that will then followe the counsell of Thoby , must no more banket and feast the Priestes , sith The place of Thoby 〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉 . that he forbiddeth to giue his breade and wine vnto sinners and the wicked . For there is not a people vpon the earth , of a more execrable life , nor which do more abuse the goods which GOD hath giuen vnto man : Amongst whom one may well accompt and number Eccius for one of the principallest Captaines of God Bacchus . For he was very angry , that day he was not dronken in . Wherfore it is no meruaile , if he woulde mainteine the spitt and the fryingpan . But yet no ueil 〈◊〉 although he and all such as he is would presse and take the words of Thoby by the rigour without admitting any exposition confirmable and agreable to the worde of God , it should haue had more colour for to allow the auncient custome which the Panyms had to cary breade vpon the burialls and to An other p●ace taken out of the psalme , 66 powre thereon wine , euen as already hath béene spoken , then for to proue the bankettes of the priestes , and the prayers for the deade . Neuerthelesse we are well assured that neither Thoby nor any other holy man but haue had regard not to allow such supersticious .

Eusebius .

Let vs leaue of Eccius and the pristes , and answere me vnto that which is written in the booke of the Psalmes : We haue passed thorowe the fire and water , and thou hast drawen vs out , and set vs in ioye and comforte . Howe vnderstandest thou that place ? The which many Theologians doe expounde it of the fire of purgatory , by the which the soules must first passe , for to be purged , before that they can enter into the celestiall rest . To which agréeth very well that which saint Paul The place of the 1. Cor , 3. c. 11 writeth to the Corinthians , saying : For other foundation can no man ●ay , then that which is layde , which is Iesus Christ . And if any man bylde vpon this foundacion , gold , siluer , precious stones , tymber , hay or stubble , euery mans worke shall appeare . For the day shall declare it , and it shal be shewed in fire : And the fire shall trie euery mans worke what it is . If any mans worke that he hath buylt vpon , byde , he shall receiue a rewarde . If any mannes worke burne , be shall suffer losse , but he shal be safe himselfe : neuerthelesse yet as it were thorowe fire . What fire can we here vnderstand then that of purgatory , which purgeth ? wherefore one is sauid by the same . The which we cannot vnderstand of the same of hel , from which none can be deliuered , nor consequently saued . What aunswerest thou to that ? I do here breake a lyttle the order that I had thought to haue kept , & do leape from the Psalter vnto the Epistles of saint Paul : But it is b●cause that the matters are like , and that the one of the pointes may the better be discussed and opened with the other . For we cannot vnderstand that fire , thorowe which one goeth and passeth , but of the same of which saint Paule speaketh by the which one is saued . For none can passe from the same of hell , but it kéepeth and holdeth fast all that that commeth to it . Declare and expound vnto me these two places , and afterwards I will go straite way to the newe Testament , and will kéepe order as I haue saide .

Theophilus .

As touching the place of the Psalmes , Aunswere to the place of the Psalmes . it is moste cleare , that in that Psalme the Prophete speaketh of the tyrannye and oppression , and of the greate afflictions and aduersities which the people of god haue suffered , from which God hath deliuered them . And the better to comprehend all in a summe , the great euills and daungers , in which that people hath beene drowned and plunged , he speaketh it in the person of him : wée are come vnto the fire and water , and thou hast ledde vs by them . He vseth commonly the comparison of the fire Esai● . 4. ● 4. ●ere 49. ● 27 1. Pet. 1. b 7. and water , bicause that there is nothing which sooner will kill & dispatch a man , then the fire and water , when they haue once power ouer him . And therefore they are many times taken in the holy scriptures , for the temptations persecutions , passions , daungers deathes , and iudgement of God , by the which all is examined , proued and tryed as by the fire and water , and there is none that can escape , if the Lorde do not delyuer and drawe him from it , as it is here spoken afterwardes . As touching 1. Cor. 3 ●●● . The exposition of the place of the Corrithians the place of Saint Paul , he pretended an other thing , then to the fire of Purgatory , as it is easie to know by his owne wordes . Wherefore I doe make thée thine owne iudge of the cause , & I demaunde of thee first , whether thou art of an opinion , that it behoueth that all the holy Prophets , Apostles and Martyrs , do passe by or thorowe that fire of Purgatory ?

Eusebius .

Noe.

Hillarius ,

Those which alledge that place for to proue the Purgatorie , dare not to confesse that . For they magnifie and extoll so much the merittes of Saints , that they haue made a treasure in their Church , of those which they haue of The tresure of the Church . superaboundance , the which they do vaunt themselues to distribute vnto others .

Theophilus .

Neuertheles the Apostle speaketh in that place of the principallest members of the church , to wit , of the Prophets , Apostles , Euangelists , Doctors , Preachers , and consequently of all those which do edifie by their doctrine , whom he calleth masons and buylders . He saith that euery ones worke shall passe by the fire , and that the workeman also shal be examined by the same . Wherfore , either you shall be constrayned to confesse that that fire cannot be vnderstanded of the same of Purgatorye , or that there is neither Saint nor Saintes but is compelled to passe by the same , for to proue & trye his worke , sith that he excepteth none . But saith plainly , that euery mans shal be tryed by the fire : The which thing saint Augustine was not ignorant off , but vseth the same reason , De ciui . dei . li. 21. ca. 26. Trac . defid . & oper. c. 16. Ench. ca. 68 against those which would mainteine by those words of the Apostle , that those which beléeue in Iesus Christ , shal be all saued , howe wicked a lyfe so euer they haue lyued , and buylded vppon the foundation , which is Iesus Christ , prouided that they had not altogether abandoned and forsaken the foundation . He taketh not that fire , for that of Purgatory : But for the tribulations , aduersities , and persecutions of this worlde . Although that some wil say , that the like is done yet in the other world , he saith that he will not repunge their opinion : the which as he saith may be true . But yet neuerthelesse he dareth not to affirme it , but expoundeth that fire of the tribulations of Theophila . in 1. Cor. 3. this worlde here . Theophilacte , who almost in all his commentaries hath followed Chrisostome , notwithstanding that he is not of the most auncientes , and that hée hath written sithence that the church hath beene verye much marred and spoyled , and that already that fire of Purgatorye was ve●ye muche kindeled , yet neuerthelesse hée made here no mention at all , not of one onely sillable : But taketh that fire for the same of Hell : saying , that the sinner shal be saued : that is to say , that he shal be reserued whole and entire , for to burne in the fire and to be punished perpetually . But for to come to the true and more cleare vnderstanding of those wordes , Saint Paul meaneth here briesely , that all buylding , all doctrine , and workes buylded and inuented without the word of God , shall turne into smoke and vanish away altogether , without being able to abide and continue firme , notwithstanding that all that shal be builded vppon the true foundation , which is Christ , who cannot beare vppe any buylding , if it be not pure gold , siluer , pearles and precious stones , taken from his worde , which is more pure Psal. 19 c. 11 then the gold and siluer fined and tryed seuen times . And therefore the Apostle vseth here a metaphore , translation , and comparison . For euen as he compareth the pure doctrine A comparison of the d●●●ne and hum●●ne doctrine . of the gospel to the gold , siluer & precious stones , which cannot be consumed by the fire , but are by the same tryed and doe appeare more faire and cleane : So he compareth the doctrines dreamed and inuen●ed by the braine of man , vnto wood , hay , chaffe and stubble , and by good right . For euen as those thinges cannot abide the fire but are consumed and perished assone as they féele it , so in lyke manner shall mens doctrines perish , and cannot abyde and continewe firme , when they shall come to the touchstone . It happeneth vnto vs oftentimes that we delyte and please our selues in our owne workes , and wée thinke that we haue made a faire and a goodly péece of worke . But wée must bring it to the touchstone : the which shall not be after our owne iudgement , but according to the same of GOD , who is the iudge of vs and of our workes . Therefore saith he , that the day shall declare it , and that the fire shall trye what euerye mannes worke shall bée . He calleth the day of the Lord , The day of the Lord. all tymes , in which hée manifes●eth his presence vnto men , by any manner of wayes : the which he doth chiefely by the manifestation of his truth , and reuelation of his Gospell . By the fire , although that in the Scripture it be many The fire . times taken , for the temptacions and tribulations , yet neuertheles it agréeth best héere to the sence & meaning of the Apostle , to take the fire for the towchstone which procéedeth of the holy Ghost , which is the true fire , which consumeth all doctrine inuented by men , the which cannot abyde the spirituall towchstone but vanisheth away assoone as one proueth the spirites , whether they be of God or not . Asmuch happeneth of all the workes , procéeding of such doctrine , the which cannot beare the iudgement of God . But to the contrary , it happeneth to the ● Pet , ● , b. 7 truth as to the faith , the which euen as the golde , becommeth more fairer , and sheweth it selfe more pure , when it is tryed and examined in that furnayce , and approcheth néerer of that spirituall iudgement . And therefore when the word of the Lorde is manifest by the vertue of the holy Ghost , then all things are reuealed . We shall know what worke we haue made : whether it hath any ●ault in it or not : and whether we haue lost our time : or whether we be worthy of a reward . If we haue not buylded a matter agréeing to the foundation , when the truth & the iudgement of the spirit of god presseth our conscience , or that the temptations also and the afflictions doe compasse vs rounde about , wée are compelled to condempne our worke , and we shall proue that that which we estéeme to be of some waight and importaunce , is nothing at all , and that in which we put our hope and trust , cannot serue vs , neither confirme nor assure our consciences ,

Eusebius .

But how are we saued by the fire , if our workes are lost , and by the same consumed ?

Theophilus .

The Apostle declareth it sufficiently himself , To be saued by the syre . if we do marke of what people he speaketh . He speaketh not of Hereticks , Apostates , seducers and false Prophets , which teach false doctrine , contrary to the faith , and which are seperated from Iesus Christ and from his body , which is the Church , by their infidelytie and peruersitie . But he speaketh of the Masons and buylders of the Churche , that is to say , of Euangelycall Pastors and Ministers , which haue not forsaken the foundation , nor the head , which Col , 1. c. 18. & . ● , b. 10. ●●hc . 1. d. 22 is Iesus Christ , that is to say , which haue not tourned themselues from the principall poynts and articles of the Christian religion , and from the saith in Iesus Christ , and from things necessary to saluation : But haue mingled some of their inuentions and traditions amongst the doctrine of the Gospell : and haue fayled in some lyttle and small things which are not very daungerous . Those then to whom such things shall happen : shall receyue domage and losse : For their wor●e , and that which they haue added to it of theirs shall perish : and shall haue no more profite , then if they were altogether dispossessed of them : But they shal haue rather shame and confusion for them . Yet neuerthelesse they shall be saued , but as by the fire : not their fault their errors and ignoraunce and their buildings , buylded without the word of God , may be agréea●le to God : But bicause of the foundation which they haue holden and kept , and of the head of which they remayne members , and of the faith which abideth in them , shall be purged and delyuered from error and ignoraunce by that fire of the holy Ghost , with which they shall bée illuminated . But yet neuerthelesse héerein , men will liken The 〈◊〉 of foolish builders . him vnto a foolish buylder , which shall buyld vpon a good and sure foundation of stone and a rocke , a house or buylding of wood , ●●ye , chaffe and stubble , which thinke to haue made a goodly péece of worke , and knowes not his fault vntill that he séeth that the fire bath taken and consumed it altogether . Then he knoweth by experience , that be hath lost his time , and the cost and expences that he hath bestowed about it ; and that be is forced to beginne his buylding a new , ●● though he had neuer put his hand vnto it , sauing that th● shame and the losse abideth with him . We call our selues all Christians , and doe confesse that there is but one foundation and one head , Iesus Christ , But although that in that behalfe we doe all agrée , yet neuertheles when they come to buylde vpon that foundation , all shall not be found good Masons . For many will be Masters , before they haue bene good schollers and apprentices : and will not follow the rule and the instruction of the master Masons , well expert and cunning in their mistery and occupation , but thincking to make some fairer thing , doe buylde after their owne fantasie . They doe preach or heare the Gospell , and will serue god after their affection , and as they thinke good : And thincking to make some faire péece of worke they marre it altogether . But they doe not know it by and by , vntill such time as the fire of the Gospell and of the spirite of God , which is the true Iudge , and the truth reuealed vnto men destroyeth all the goodly outwarde appearaunce , and maketh it to be séene such as it is , and not such as it appeareth outwarde : As wée sée by experience , in the Moonkish sectes , and in many other ceremonyes , superstitions , Idolatryes , and workes inuented of menne , in which wee doe glorye and boaste our selues , and thinke that we haue done mough for to merite foure Paradises , and for to make God to be in our debte . But when the Gospell is purely preached which beateth down all error , all vayne supersticion and mans trust , then we shall know our fault , and be ashamed of that of which we thinke to be much estéemed . Or when God sendeth vnto vs some great affliction temptation and aduersitie , that his iudgement presseth vs , that he examineth and prourth our woorkes , as the fire proueth and tryeth the golde in the furnayce . Then we shall know our hypocrisie , folly , vanitie , and false religion , the which wée doe not thinke but to be pure godlynesse and righteousnesse : And as the holy Apostle , esteeming as dongue all that which before wée estéemed as golde . But forasmuch as wée haue Philip. 3. b. 8 not renounced and forsaken Iesus Christ , nor the fayth which wée haue in him , wee are not altogether lost , thorow the fault that we haue committed , but it happened vnto vs , euen so as vnto him which hath escaped the fire . But he hath yet neuertholesse lost his house , and all that which was in it , bicause that it was not buylded with good stuffe : and could saue but his body all naked his lyfe . Wherfore he must buyld it altogether new : dost thou not thinke Eusebius , that this exposition agréeth better to the sence and meaning of the Apostle , then that of your Doctors which would tourne and wrest it , to their sence and vnderstanding , against the same of the spirite of God , and of Saint Paul , and of the auncient Doctors , which haue neuer expounded it of the fire of Purgatory , but almost al of them to the sence as I haue expounded it , chiefly Ambro. in 1. Cor. 3. The custome of the false and tru● doctors Saint Ambrose . I cannot be too much abashed of the manner of doing of those which will vphold mannes traditions . When we will propone any thing in the Church of Iesus Christ , for a doctrine of saluation and an article of faith , we ought first of all dilygently to examine , whether that which we would put foorth , hath any certeine and sure foundation in the word of God . If we find that it is commaunded of God and comprised in the holy scriptures , we may and ought boldely to propounde and affirme it . On the contrary , if the Scripture doth make no mention of it , it is not lawfull onely to open the mouth , for to speake one word , and for to propounde for certeine a thing vncerteine . For cursed is the man , which putteth foorth for a sure doctrine , a thing , of which he himselfe is not certein , and of which he cannot say with the Prophet and the holy Psal. 116 , b. 11 2. Cor. 4. c 13 Apostle : I haue beléeued it and therefore I spake it . For wée ought to beware and kéepe our selues , as from death , to teach vnto others , to beléeue and to do that , which we our selues beléeue not , and of which we are not certeine . Now it is impossible to be assured and certeine of such things , then by the word of god the which we ought to follow in all things . But I sée cleane contrary in those which haue taught mens traditions , in stéede of the worde of God . For in stéede to take counsayle of it , before they doe institute any thing , they haue first propounded and perswaded the people , that which commeth in their out béeing much aduised , whether God hath commaunded or forbidden it . It sufficeth them so that they haue some shew and appearaunce . And when they perceiue that one will examine their Doctrines by the rule of the word of God , then fearing to be ouercome and condempned , they séeke if they can finde any thing in the Scripture for to proue their intent : the which they ought to haue done before they put tho thing foorth . But sithence that they haue once ordeined and published it , and haue perceiued and felt the profit , it grieueth them sore to recant and gainesay it . And therefore they doe all their endeuours , for to finde in the Scripture some coulour , for to beautifie and shew foorth their worke : And there is nothing , so that it hath any appearaunce at all , but that they drawe it violently , depraue and marre it , for to make it serue to their purpose .

Hillarius .

They doe as those which doe fight together , which take and catch all that commeth to their hands , for to defende them with , bée it swoorde , launce , staffe forke , pole , fire brande , stones , dunge , myre , dust , asshes , and all that which they can catch or come by , without regarding any thing but to defende themselues and hurt their enimie . For that is all one vnto them , so that they escape , ● cary away the victory . These Theologians Proue●b● . Rogula Lesbia . Arist. ●● . ● mora . Eras . chil . doe make me to remember the olde pronerbe , of the rule Lesbia , the which was of Lead : Wherefore the Masons of Lesbia boowed it as they would . And in stéede that they ought to measure and compasse their worke by the same , and the stones which they hewed and the wals which they builded , and to correct and amende them if they were not right & wel compassed , they did cleane contrary . For they did bend & make crooked their rule for to make it to agrée with their worke , where they ought to make the worke to agrée to the same . And so it obeyed them in all thinges . And whereas they should correct and amend their worke by the rule , they corrected and amended the rule by their woorke . Euen so are many of the lawes , the which one maketh them to agrée to the manners , whereas by them they ought to be corrected , & not the lawes by mans affections .

Theophilus .

There is not a thing the which at this daye they doe more abuse in that sort , then the holy Scriptures . There is not a rule more firme , more surer and certeine , and yet neuerthelesse the false Doctors to all purposes dooe tourne and wrest it to their sence and vnderstandinge , as wée doe sée by experience in that matter of Purgatorye . For sithence that once that errour was brought into the Church of God , as soone as was founde in the holy Scripture one woorde that made mencion of fire , they haue by and by drawen and applyed it to their purpose , and haue taken it for a certeine proofe of Purgatorye , without hauing regarde , that the fire in the same is taken more then in a thousand places , as well in the olde as newe Testament , in so many diuerse significations , chiefely in the psalmes , Esay , Ieremy , and in the other Prophetical and Apostolical Scriptures , of which it is not now néede to bring foorth the examples .

Hillarius .

Thou hast hearde a sufficient declarati●n of that place , of which thou oughtest to content thy selfe Eusebius , and to kéepe thy selfe from following the example of your Doctors , which doe drawe and wreast the holy Scriptures , for to make them singe what it pleaseth them , more cruelly then ● Tyrant would draw and handle a malefactor on the racke and on the gallowes .

Eusebius .

They doe say the lyke of you .

Hillarius .

But it is ea●●ly to iudge vnto whome that office agréeth best .

Eusebius .

And howe vnderstandest thou this place of Saint Mathew ? where hée sayth : Agrée with thine aduersary The place o● Ma● . ● , ●● , ●5 . quickly , whilest thou art in the waye with him , least th● nouersary deliuer thée to the Iudge , & the Iudge deliuer thee to the Minister , & then thou be cast in prison . Verely I saye vnto thée : thou shalt not come out thence til thou haue payde the vttermost farthing . What other prison may wée vnderstande héere , but the same of Purgatory ? For from that same of hell there is neuer no hope to come foorth . But sith that it is heere spoken of the comming foorth , after they haue wholy and fully satisfyed , we cannot doubt , but that the same prison is Purgatorye , in which the soules are deteined and kepte in paines , vntill they haue fully satisfied for all their sinnes .

Theophilus .

Sith that thou expoundest the prison in such sorte , I demaund of thée , who is the Iudge , of whom is héere made men●ion off ?

Eusebius .

It is God .

Theophilus .

And who is the aduerse partie ?

Eusebius .

The Diuell .

Theophilus .

And who is The Sargeants of Purgatori● , the Sargent or Minister ?

Eusebius .

The Angell .

Theophilus .

Thou wilt then say that the Angells doo conduct and lead , the soules into Purgatorye , to the place of paines and ●orments ?

Eusebius .

Who then ? the Diuels ? Shall it be reasonable , that the faythfull should be put into the hande of the diuell , for to he subiect vnto him whom they haue vanquished and ouercome ? and punished ? by him ouer whom they haue triumphed ?

Theophilus .

They haue not yet wel triumphed , if they be yet so deteined and kept in sinnes , that for them they must be kept in a fire , altogether lyke vnto that same of hell , for the time that they are there . Mee thinkes that that office should be more decent and meete for the Diuels , then for the Angells . For it is not lyke to be true , that the Angells should be the hangmen of the soules of the faythfull , and that they shoulde take pleasure to imprison and torment so cruellye their neighbours and bretheren , whiche are Citizens of Heauen with them . I haue read in the holy Scriptures , that the Angells caryed the soule of Lazarus into the besome L●● . 16. b. ●0 of Abraham , into a place of ioye and rest , and that they haue deliuered Saint Peter and the Apostles out of prison : But I haue neuer read that they haue lead them Act , ●● b. 7 ●eon . de ●tin . se●● . d●●●or . Aut Flo●e●●ia Sum. into prison , nor into places of tormentes , nor that they did leade the rich man into hell .

For as much as your Doctors confesse that the Diuels do holde themselues next to the soules of those which are purged in Purgatory , and doe accompany them , for to reioyce themselues of their torments and to mocke them of the same : They may best gi●e that office vnto them , and to exempt and omit the Angells . But what appearaunce hath it with thy exposition ? If the Du●el , or the sinne ought héere to be vnderstanded for our aduerse partye , it followeth then that Iesus Christ commaundeth vs to agrée and to be at one with the diuel and sinne . But how can we be agreed with him and with God ? Furthermore , he would that that same agréement should be done whilest that one is in the way , that is to say , in this lyfe . For after that man is dead , he is out of the way . It must then followe that he must make héere his good déedes , before he doe dye , for to auoide that prison of Purgatorye . And the same shall be for to confirme the prouerbe of the Priestes , saying : that better is the candle that goeth before , then that Prouerbe The candl● before . that commeth behinde ?

Eusebius .

How wilt thou interprete that place ?

Hillarius .

Sith that there is an allegory , and that your Doctors doe play so with the word of God , I will also play and iest with them . First , although there were none other reason , but that you will heare build the Purgatory vpon an allegory , it is sufficient inough , for to ouerthrow and pull downe all your foundation . For there is not a Theologian The vse of alleg●●●es . which confesseth not but that the Allegoryes are not sufficient for probation and confirmation of doctrine , whatsoeuer it bée , if it haue none other foundation , more cléerer and more playne in the worde of God : but is more proper and fitte for to beautifie and set out the matters , to delite and mooue the auditors and hearers , then for to proue and confirme it . For one maye expounde them after diuerse manners , accordinge to the dexteritie and wit of him which declareth them .

And therefore if I woulde ieste and playe with the woorde of GOD , as your Doctours doe . I might allegorise Exposition allego●●●all . and declare that place , expoundinge the Iudge for the Pope , which is the God Pluto . The aduersari● for the Priestes . For they doe quarrell with vs alwaies for to get money from vs , and we can neuer be at one , and agréed with them , except they haue al , and that they haue eaten vs quicke and dead . The Sergeaunt that is the Angell and the God Mercury . For according to the Poetical Merc●●y . Theologie , he had wings and ●aryed the soules to hel , and was the God of gayne , of deceipts & larc●nyes as already hath bene touched . Now who leadeth the soules into Purgatory , but that S●rgeaunt héere of God Pluto ? As the cause of the gayne and hope of the money and raunsome which our Merchaunts and aduerse parties doe looke for ? They would gladly that we should agrée with them whilst that we are in the way , in this present lyfe : and that wée should distribute vnto them all our goodes , without leauing any thing , neyther to our children , parents , nor friends . I am very certeine , that after that we haue giuen them all , and that there is no more hope to gette any more raunsome of vs , that there shall bée no more prison for vs , nor Sergeaunts for to leade vs thether . Doest thou thinke Eusebius , that my interpretation is not as good as thine ? I am well assured , that as to the sence and meaning of the words of Iesus Christ , neyther the one nor the other approcheth nigh vnto it , and lesse thine then mine : but according to your Theologie , mine is more sufferable and more true .

Thomas .

Thou wilt then say , that the one and the other are nothing worth : and therfore Theophilus , expound vnto vs the true sence and meaning of Iesus Christ .

Theophilus .

We must wel note and marke that which Hillarius hath sayd of Allegories . How much difference there is betweene thi● héere of Iesus Christ , and those which the expositors do make commonly . For in these words The sence of the words of ● Iesus Christ . of Iesus Christ , there i● an example & a comparison wrapped in with an Allegorie . For Iesus Christ would not here declare any other thing , but into what dangers & inconu●niences those doe put themselues , which had rather to goe to the ●igour of right then to agrée friendly with the aduerse partie , before they doe come to iudgement : to that ende that hée doth the better incitate and stirre forwarde men vnto amitie and brotherly reconcilyation , of which he speaketh in this place . After the same forte doth Saint Bretherly re 〈◊〉 Ch●●s●●● M● . 5. Homil. 16. Chrisostome expounde it , without making any mention of Purgatory , and he alloweth not those which do vnderstand by the aduerse partie the diuell , but interpreteth that place o●●lees an● processe . Now our Lord Iesus the better to moue the hearers to brotherly reconc●lyation , taketh example vppon the pleaders , as if he shoulde saye : If thy aduerse partie do bring thée into iudgement , th●● canst doe no better for thy honour and profite , then to agrée with him , before thou proue and try the rigour of right . For if thou agrée friendly with the partie , he may shew thée some fa●our and forgiue thee the deb●e , and thou shalt auoyde the dishonour , shame , and the cost●s , which is bestowed vppon the playnts . On the contrary if thou doe not agrée , thou canst not so well auoyde the payment : but the Iudge shall know it , and thou shal● be condemned and compelled to pay to the vttermost all the debt , without rebating one farthing , euen as those which for debt are deteined and kept in prison , vntill the ende of th● payment . Beholde the example and the similytude which Iesus Christ propounded vnto vs , for to bring vs to reconcilyation . But he declareth not amply that which he would haue vs to vnderstand by the same : but it su●●seth him to haue set vs in the way , and he hath opened vnto vs the vnderstanding of that which he would teach vs , which auayleth as much as if he had sayd : Whilest that thou arte yet alyue and that thou hast time , retourne in grace , and agree with thine aduersary , that is to say with thy brother and neighbour , whome thou hast offended , and to whome thou art bound . For we are debters , vnto all thos● to whom we haue done iniurie and wrong .

And therefore let vs not suffer that the bloude of our brother should demaund ve●geaunce , and delyuer vs into the hande of the Iudge . Le●te vs not tary vntill we bée cy●ed and that the day bee assigned vnto vs , for to a●peare in his iudgement : But let vs con●●rre our contrauersies friendly the one with the other , whilest he giueth vs leasure , and he himselfe as a rightfull arbitrator exhorteth vs to doe it .

For be we assured that if wée doe it not , after that hée shall tary long time , he himselfe will set vs agréed . But that shall be to the great cost and expences and to the great hurte and shame of him in whom he shall finde the wrong , and who shall be the cause of the controuersie , and of the lette and h●●deraunce which shall be in the agreement .

For he ought to be assured that his malyce and obstination shall be vnto him déere solde , and that he shall not be abated one onely farthing : for if he be condemned to satisfie to the righteousnesse of God , euen to the vttermost penny , there is no more hope of health and saluation . For sith that the sentence is once giuen , and that man is out of this mortall lyfe , there is no more time to demaunde and aske agréement .

On the other side , it is impossible that man can euer haue wherewith to satisfie God , sith that thorow his infidelytie & peruer●●tie he hath made the satisfaction of Iesus Christ vnprofitable for himselfe . It followeth then necessarily y● that prison is not purgatory , but hel , which hath The prison . no issue , nor place of raunsome . Wherefore that place concludeth nothing for the Purgatory . And although it be sayde that man shall not come out of that prison , vntill that he hath payed the vttermost farthing , wée must not therefore conclude that he shall come out at any time , but rather that he shall neuer come out . For that manner of Do●●● . speaking is very common in the Scripture , and ought to be vnderstanded as the which is written of the Rauen which Noe did sende out , which retourned not agayne : vntil that Genes. ● , b. ● . the waters were dryed vp .

It followeth not therefore that hée retourned agayne at any time afterwards . And Saynt Augustine expoundeth that same place , eue● as that which is written by that same Euangelyst , speaking of Ioseph , saying , that he knew not the Virgin Mary , Math. ● . d 25 vntil she had brought foorth hir first begotten son . We must not conclude by these words , with Hel●●dius , that he hath knowen hir afterwards . For he meaneth none other Helindius . thing , but that he knew hir not , when she ●●re Iesus Christ . But it followeth not therefore that he hath knowen hir afterwards : Or otherwise he should be forced to conclude , that Iesus Christ shall reigne no more , after that he shall haue put all his enemyes vnder his feete , therefore it is written , that the Lord hath sayd vnto him : Sitte thou on my right hand , vntill I put all thine enemies thy footstoole . Psa. ●●● . ●● . Thou doest then sée that the exposition of Saint Augustine , ouerthroweth yours . And that which I say of that place , must be also vnderstanded of that which is writt●● afterwards of the seruaunt which would not haue compassion The sence and me●ning of the parable . Ma● . ●● . ● . ●0 , vpon his companion , nor forgiue him the debt . Ther is no difference , but that Iesus Christ by that example declareth vnto vs , that we must not hope to obteine pardon of God , except we haue done first all our endeauour , to obteine it of those whom we haue offended , and to satisfie and become friends agayne with them . Also in lyke manner by the other he declareth vnto vs , that we ought to haue no more hope , if we doe not pardon those which shall offend vs .

Thomas .

We must not then , by that reckoning , tary to pay our debts , and to amend the iniuryes done vnto our neighbours , vntil we be dead , for to make satisfaction afterwardes in Purgatory to the Priestes , vnto whome the wrong was not done and the debts were not due .

Theophilus .

Euen as by that example Iesus Christe exhorteth euery one of vs , to agree with our neighbour , during this lyfe : So he admonisheth vs to doe the lyke towardes GOD , vsing the very same similytude in the Gospell after Saynct Luke : Declaring vnto vs thereby , that if wee doe knowe howe to prouide and The 〈◊〉 ●●d meaning of the words of Sa●●t Luke . ●1 . g●u●rne our affayres and dooinges after the worlde , and to agrée with those vnto whom we are bound , for to auoyde the losse and inconueniences into which we maye fall , we ought by a more stronger reason to trauayle to doe so with God , whilest that the time of our visitation indureth , and that he giueth vs time and space to agrée with him thorow true repentance . For after that the sentence shall be giuen , there shall be no more remedie . Thou maist then Eusebius knowe , if thou doest well vnderstand the meaning of the words of Iesus Christ , that they doe destroy Purgatory , in stéede to buylde it . For he giueth vs no hope that we may take order and remedie for our affaires and businesse after we be dead , but he would that we dispose it both with God , and among our selues , before that we departe from hence , and that we appeare before his face .

Thomas .

Thou must then séeke some other way , Eusebius . For as farre as I doe perceiue and sée , that place will not helpe vppe thy Purgatory .

Eusebius .

Then before we goe out from that Euangelist , tell me Theophilus , The place of Sainct Mat. ●● c 31. Luc. ●● . b. ●0 wherefore Iesus Christ hath sayd , that the sinne agaynst the holy Ghost is not pardoned in this worlde , nor in the world to come .

Theophilus .

That poynt is one of the chiefest arguments which your Doctors doe put foorth for the defence of Purgatory . But what wilt thou thereby conclude ?

Eusebius .

That which Saint Gregory concluded , who Dialo . 4. D●st. 25. ca Qual●s . wayed and marked well those words , and sayd , that by that sentence is giuen vs to vnderstand , that there are some sinnes , which are pardoned in this world , and others which are in the other world , which out to be purged before the iudgement , and for the which it is to be beléeued , that there is a fire . If in the other worlde there bée forgiuenesse of some sinnes , it cannot be in Hell. Then of force it must be in Purgatory .

Theophilus .

I doe greatly meruayle of that Logicke , which maketh such Silogismes and conclusions : That sin is not pardoned in this world nor in the world to come . There is then some which is pardoned in the worlde to come : the which cannot be but in Purgatory . Wherefore there is a Purgatory . There is not a Sophister so ignoraunt , which ought not to knowe , that according to the rules of their Logicke , one cannot draw a consequence whatsoeuer it be , of propositions altogether negatiues . If then of negatiues , a consequence negatiue is nothing Ex puris negatiu●● nihil sequitur . worth , how shall the affirmatiue be good , such as you woulde héere conclude ? Why one you not conclude rather . This sinne is not pardoned in this world nor in the worlde to come . It shall be then neuer pardoned , For if there be a pardon , it cannot be but in this worlde or in the other . The consequence after this manner should be good . For the Antecedent hath comprehended al the times and places to whome the sinne may be pardoned .

And after that sorte doth Saint Marke expounde it , of Mar 3. d 19 whome the glose is more certeine , then yours . For in steede of that that Saint Mathew hath sayd , neyther in this world nor in the other , he hath said : neuer . Wherein it appeareth that those two propositions are equiualent and of equalytie . That sinne is not pardoned neyther in this worlde , nor in the other : and that sinne is neuer Propositions . , Eq●poll●●is . pardoned . Furthermore , you doe contesse , that it must bée that the fault of sinne , the which maketh man subiect to dampnation , be alredy pardoned in this world , & that ther remayneth but the payne , the which he must beare and suffer in Purgatory . For you doe putte none other difference , Di●ersitie of pardons . betwéene the soules of the blessed which are already at rest , and those of Purgatory , and the dampned , but that the Saints which are already in Paradise , are pardoned of payne and fault . Those which are in Purgatory , are not pardoned but of the fault , but they must heare and suffer the payne due to sinne , vntill such time as they haue satisfied for it , and that they be perfectly purged .

But yet neuerthelesse bicause that the faulte is pardoned them , their payne is not to them eternall , as the same of the dampned , bicause that the fault of dampnation is ta ken away from them , the which abideth and continueth vpon the reprobate . Now Iesus Christ speaketh héere of sinne which dampneth , the which agreeth not but to the reprobate . Wherefore he speaketh of the faulte of sinne , the which is not pardoned in Purgatory , according to your doctrine , for in the same one can but release the payne .

It followeth then , that although that we doe agrée and graunt vnto you that ther is some forgiuensse of sinne in the other worlde , euen as you woulde conclude of the words of Iesus Christ that the same should nothing at all relieue and helpe vp your Purgatory . Wée must then Sinne against the holy Ghost . consider the manner of speaking , by the which Iesus Christ woulde declare , how greate and detestable that sinne is , and to take away all the hope of pardon , vnto those which in that poynt will resist the truth knowen , and will goe about to quenche and putte out the lyght of the holy Ghost , which is offered vnto them .

And therefore hée was not contented to say : that sinne shall neuer be forgiuen and pardoned . But the better for to augment and amplyfie the thing , hée woulde vse that manner of speaking , which comprehendeth the iudgement of God , the which already euery man féeleth in his conscience in this lyfe : and that latter iudgement which shall be manifested in the resurrection .

Wherefore hee sayth briefely , that in this same lyfe , in the which God hath giuen to man , time and space to conuert and tourne himselfe vnto him , that sinne shall neuer be pardoned , and yet lesse in that latter iudgement , in which God will giue his latter sentence : except peraduenture there were some , which in him had some hope .

But it followeth not thererefore that he hath forgiuenesse of any sinne , in the worlde to come , which shall not bée héere pardoned . But to the ende that thou mayst yet better knowe , that Iesus Christ hath not spoken in that sorte without iust reason , we must consider that he furnisheth vs héere with a good witnesse against the Originists and Anabapti●●s , which doe promise forgiuenesse of sins Against the Crigeniste● vnto the Diuells and reprobate in the other worlde . Although I doe not beleeue , that Origines was of such an opinion : For his bookes doe witnesse vnto vs the contrary . But for to retourne vnto the words of Iesus Christ , sith that Iesus Christ sayth so cléerely , that that sinne , which is proper vnto them , shall not haue forgiuenesse in this world nor in the other , it followeth then , that it shall neuer haue : or els it must be that they finde out an other thirde worlde , euen as they haue founde out a temporall eternitie , to the which they doe giue an ende : and an eternall A temporal eternitie . fire , which is temporall , not perdurable . But although it should be so , that there should be in the world to come some forgiuenesse of sinnes , it followeth not therefore , that it is necessary to haue there a Purgatory . Now first of all there is no certeine witnesse that there is any remission and forgiuenesse after this lyfe , but a certeine humayne coniecture and presumption . Then if that proposition be buylded vppon humayne coniecture and presumption , yet that which affirmeth the Purgatory is best , sith that the same is none other thing but a coniecture and presumption , buylded vpon other coniectures and presumptions . For put the case that there should be forgiuenesse in the other lyfe , coulde it not be in any other place rather then in Purgatory ? or at an other time , then you do there limit ? Could it not haue bene giuen , either by and by after that one is dead , or delayed vntill the latter iudgement ? But which of the auncientest doctors of the church is there , that euer hath expounded that place in such sence as thou takest it ? Chrisostome expeundeth it after this Chriso . in Mat. 12. ●omel , 42 manner : Sith that that sinne is not veniall vnto you , you shall be grieuously punished both in this lyfe and in the other . He meaneth none other thing by those words , but that the Iewes which resisted the holy Ghost , shall not be only punished in this world , for to be chastised and corrected 1. Cor. ●● , 2 〈◊〉 ● Luc , 6. c. 23 as the Corinthians were : or onely in the other world , as the rich man was : but they shall be héere and there , as those of Sodome and Gomorra . For they were Gen●● , ●● , ● , 24 destroyed by the Romaines , and haue not escaped eternall dampnation . There is nothing in this exposition which can serue you . Those which are of an opinion , that the s●●les doe abide vncertein of their saluation , or dampnation , and that they may yet profit or empaire betwéene this and the great iudgement : In like manner those which doe esteme and thinke that the gospel shal be preached vnto the soules of the dead , to which it hath not bene heere declared , shall they not haue more colour héere to build their reasons and arguments , then you for your Purgatory ? For at the leastwise , those latter héere shal haue more appearaunce , a●cording to the scripture , bicause that they may or can alledge some places , which doe séeme expresly inough to fauour that opinion . And yet they haue other reasons very apparant , where you haue not but certeine colde coniectures Nowe Iesus Christ , who is the infallible veritie woulde not , that we should builde the articles of our fayth , vppon coniectures , but vpon the expresse veritie . For sith that he and his Apostles doe witnesse , that they haue man●fested Iohn , 15 Act. 20 ●● . 20 all that which was necessary to our saluation , & hath commended to vs so much the loue towards our bretheren , it is not lyke to be true , but is repugnant to the witnesse of Iesus Christ , that they haue spoken vnto vs so obscurely , & haue giuen vnto vs onely some coniectures of this matter , and of the loue that we owe vnto the dead , the which the Priestes doe wrest it more , then that which is due vnto those that be liuing .

Hillarius .

Bicause that Iesus Christ hath spoken so obscurely , therefore they would make commentaries & gloses , for to declare it , bicause that it bringeth vnto them more profit .

Thomas .

Thou hast opened a place , Theophilus , of which I would gladly be resolued , that is to say , Pre●ching to the dead . of the preaching to the dead . For to tell the truth I haue oftentimes dreamed & mused after it , bicause that I considered , that according to the witnesse of the Scripture , n●ne ●ohn , 35● can haue saluation , but thorowe the faith in Iesus Christ . Now if we do compare those which haue knowne Iesus Christ and haue beleeued in him , with those which haue not beleeued , and which haue neuer hard him speake , the number of those here shal be very little , in respect of others . Wherefore it followeth , that there should be a merua●lous number of the damned , & that the mercy of God shall not be so great as his rigor & iudgement . Now it is straunge to mans reason , to iudge that God will dampne so many , chie●●y , sith that he hath had as many which haue not known Iesus Christ , for want that one hath not shewed him vnto them . Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of those héere is not much out of reason : And I would gladly know what places they can haue of the holy Scripture for to proue it , for I will accord and agrée almost sooner to that , then to the opinion of Purgatory .

Theophilus .

Thou hast moued a question , the whiche cannot be expressed and absolued in few wordes . For we must first declare what knowledge of Iesus Christ is necessary vnto saluation : and how it hath bene alwayes preached from the beginning of the world , among all people & nations : And how it hath ben sufficiently manifested vnto the elect for their saluation , & to the reprobate for their condempnation : Insomuch that they are all inexcusable , & they cannot alledge ignorance sufficient for to excuse them : And it is not néedfull that they haue any more preaching after this lyfe . But I had rather that we would omit and leaue off that matter vntill an other time , that we maye speake more amply of it , and better to satisfie the question which is made dayly , touching the saluation or dampnation of our predecessors , which haue liued in errour and ignoraunce . Yet neuerthelesse bicause that the places , which we haue accustomed to alledge , for the preaching to the dead may also serue to the matter at this present time , I am contented that we do entreat of them , for to declare that they are not firme inough for to proue the same : nor the Limbe . nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make them serue . But for that that it may be , that Eusebus doth put them foorth amongst his defenses , it were better that we do delay that matter , vntil such time as he bringeth it in by course , in following his matter by order : or if be do it not , thou maist put me in remembrance Thomas . Yet neuerthelesse before that Eusebius pursueth the other places that he hath determined to put foorth or open , I wil propound vnto him an argument , concerning the point of which we haue entreated off , that is to say , of the remission & forgiuenes of sinnes in the other world ? Whervpon I demaund of thée Eusebius : when Iesus Christ did giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vnto his Church , as wel in the person of S. Peter as vnto al the church generally , & that he declare the power of them & of the ecclesiastical ministry , hath he not sayd namely : That which thou shalt The power of the keyes , Mat. 16 c. 19 & . 18. c. 18 binde in earth shall be bound in heauen , & that which thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen . He sayth not : That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde , in heauen or in Purgatory , or in hell , or in the other world , or in the other life , and in an other earth , but speaketh of this héere in the which the keys haue ben giuen , & in the which the Euangelical ministry hath his vigor and strength . I wil not reiterate that that you said of the forgiuenes of fault & paine . For al that is against you But me thinketh that the Pope and those that haue receiued the power of him , doe verye euill vnderstand their office , willing to extend and stretch the power of their keyes , pardons and indulgences , vnto The power of the keyes & the Indulgences for the dead . the other world , and vnto the dead , which haue their estate a part and seperated from ours , and are no more vnder the iudgement of the church which is in earth , which hath not to regard but on the liuing .

Eusebius ,

Alexander of Ales , & Gabriel Biel haue very wel satisfied the obiection . For they do In. 4. Sent. Res●erper . de mor virt serm. Dom. in sexa . answere , that the dead ought to be accompted , to be yet vpon the earth , as touching the absolution or ligation : binding or vnbinding , vntil that they are passed & entred into the kingdome of heauen . For whilest that the soules are in purgatory , they are vpon the earth , sith that they are not yet in heauen , & that Betwene whether the soules of purgatory are prented . they are yet of the Church militant , & not of the triumphant . Furthermore , euen as those which are in the earth are yet in the way , and not at the end & full marke , so are those which are deteined in Purgatory : They are in passing , for to goe to the countrey , as touching the purgation , by the which they are purged & passe to the country , as by the way . Although that they are at the ende & marke as touching the confirmation . For they can no more sinne nor merit . Furthermore , all the while that they are ayded , & receiue comfort of the temporall & earthly goods , by prayers , one may well holde & accompt them for to be yet of this world , sith that they doe communicate with vs of the goods which are there .

Hillarius .

He will accompt then of the dead , as of the Monkes , which are dead to the world in some pointes , Monkes dead to the world but not in other some . They are dead to the world , as to that that they doe serue and profit no person , no more then the dead . But they are not dead , as to eating and drinking , and to other carnall workes . For in that there is not a people which doe better liue in the world , nor which are more of the world . Euen so shall it be of the dead . They shal be dead to vs , for to giue vs any more ayde and succour . But they shal not be dead for to hurt vs and to eate & consume our goods and substaunce . It is said in a common prouerb : Prouerbe . Mortus non mordent . The dead do byte . That the dead do not bite : But there are none liuing more biting , then such dead men , except the Priests and Monks which do become vnto vs so biting , for to bite vs vnder the name and title of them .

Theophilus .

The Pope aduaunceth himselfe to be the liuetenant of S. Peter : But wherefore The Pope the 〈◊〉 of Saint Peter . doth he attribute vnto himselfe the office of S. Peter ?

Eusebius .

Bicause that S. Peter can no more execute it .

Theophilus .

Wherefore can he no more exercise & execute it ?

Eusebius .

Bicause that he is no more conuersant among the liuing , and bicause he hath ended & finished his course , and hath ended his ministry among men .

Theophilus .

Thou commest nowe to the matter . If then Saint Peter hath not belowe the Heauen power to absolue vs , nor they of the other worlde , those which are in this heere , how shall the Pope haue more power , for so absolue belowe the earth , and they of this world , those Absolucion of the quick and the dead . which are in the other ? Sith that he attributeth vnto himselfe the office of saint Peter , for that that Saint Peter is absent from those that are liuinge wherefore 〈◊〉〈◊〉 not content himselfe with the liuinge . What hath he to doe with the dead ? If in the other world there be an premission of sinnes , and the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : 〈◊〉 take place , wherefore doth he not leaue 〈◊〉 of the same vnto Saint Peter , and to the Prophets , Apostles , Martyrs and confessors which are there . For if it bée néedfull to pardon sinnes to the dead in the other world , those which are there present , and know their 〈◊〉〈◊〉 they not better doe it then the Pope : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 which 〈◊〉 ●●●sent , and altogether ignoraunt 〈◊〉〈◊〉 estate and condition ? They say that they cannot pardon sinnes to those that be aliue , nor absolue them except they confesse themselues vnto them ●●● to know and iudge of th●m how can they 〈◊〉〈◊〉 and giue 〈◊〉 vnto the soules of the dead , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 not , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 confession , nor know whether they be 〈◊〉〈◊〉 or not whether they be de●eined ● . hell 〈◊〉 Purgatorye , or already The office of a Lieutenant . passed and arriued into 〈◊〉 I 〈◊〉 thincke that a liuetenant is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 the place of an other ; which cannot 〈◊〉〈◊〉 prop●● person . Then if the Pope be the 〈◊〉 of Saint Peter : in this world , bicause that S. Peter is no more héere , howe can he be his liuetenaunt in the other world , in which Saint Peter is , and he is not ? Beholde a sort of liuetenauntes , the most straungest that euer was in the world . For in stéed to holde and kepe the place , in which they ought to be pr●sent , in the name of those that are absent they béeing absent , would holde the place in which they cannot be in the name of those which are there present . Wherefore I would counsayle the Pope and his , to let the dead alone from hencesoorth , and to meddle no more with them , and that they doe leaue the charge vnto Sain●t Peter and to Math , ● . c. 22 the other Apostles and Saintes which are with them .

Hillarius .

If Iesus Christ hath sayd vnto one of his Disciples : let the dead bury the● dead , we may well say vnto those héere : let the dead absolue the dead , & be you careful but for those that be ti●ing . For I doe assure them , that they shall haue inough to doe to gouerne the liuing , & they shal ●nde themselues more ●indled & letted then they thinke , and more then they would . Wherefore I beléeue that they shall be forced to let the deade al●ne , and to leaue all the charge vnto Saint Peter and vnto his compaignions : or for to speake better 〈◊〉 God ; which hath both the quick and the dead in his 〈◊〉 Wherefore wée haue no néede to ●●men● neither the quicke nor the ●end vnto the Saints nor Saintes , ●ut 〈◊〉 vnto the Lord Iesus , who is the Iudge and Sauiour 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 the Pope sayth also that he is 〈◊〉 , I know not what shall be his Church . For if the Pope be liuetenaunt of Iesus Christ : and the office of a 〈◊〉 is ●o holde the place of him that is absent , it follow●●● then that I●su● Christ i● not in the Popish Church , but h● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 . And so by that meanes the Popish Church shal be without Iesus Christ 〈◊〉 without God . Then of necessitie it must be that the Diuell 〈◊〉 , and that be is the ●ead and the God , as be is the God of this w●●ld . For in the Christian Church , Iesus Christ hath no néede of a ●●●ar neither liuetenant , sith that he 〈◊〉 alwayes present , and that he hath promised to be in the middest of his Disciples , and with them vntill Mat , 18. c. ●0 & . 28. d 20 the ●nde of the world . Except we will call his ●uly spirit , his ●ear after the imitation of Tertulian bicause that it r●igneth in vs by him , and qiutheneth vs . ●husebius . Mee thinketh that no reason can perswade ●●● . For the aunswere 〈◊〉 I haue alledged vnto you of Alexander of Ales , hath already satisfied all your obiections and replyings , 〈◊〉 although that S. Peter and the Apostles are in the other world , they are not therefore in Purgatory .

Wherefore their ministrie & their power of their ●eyes , cannot be stretched & pulled out the ●her , but are in heau● , in which ther is no more néede .

Theophilus .

Also , ●● more is the Pope neither the priests . I know not whether that The keyes of Saint Peter & the Pope . their key be longer , then that of Saint Peter , or whether that there were more space from the heauen vnto Purgatory , then from the earth .

Hillarius .

But how knowest thou , whether that Sain● Peter hath caryed his key with him or 〈◊〉 . For if the Pope haue it , Saint Peter hath it no more .

Theophilus ,

Saint Peter had two names , and was called before Symon , Now I beléeue in déede , that the Pope may haue the keyes of Symon , not of Simon Peter , but of Simon Peter . Mat. 16. c. 19 Iohn . 1. ●● . 42 Simon Magus : the which argée not with the true ●oore , which is Iesus Christ : nor with the true locke which is the word of God , the which is ●●●o the true key of knowledge The keyes of Symon . Iohn . 10. ● . 7 Luc. 11. g. 52 for to open vnto vs the kingdome of heauen .

Thomas .

He hath then chaunged the key .

Theophilus .

There is nothing truer .

Thomas ,

And his , to what doore doth it agrée ?

Hillarius .

Vnto that of the cofers ● scrips , for to stuffe and fill them ,

Thomas .

Then Purgatory is in our purses .

Hillarius .

We haue sufficiently pre●ed it . Purgatery of purses . For they haue so well purged vs , that thou wil● say that they are made of the 〈◊〉 of the D●●ell . For any one crosse may not ●ary in it , where that Purgatory is .

Thomas .

It must be called then from hencefoorth , Pag●tory , Pagatore . or purge purse . Now if the Purgatory be so ●●e , it is not now néedfall that the key be too long for to open it . But whatsoeuer it be , the Popes haue ben the subtilest lockyers , & the greatest ●othsmiths y● euer was in the world . The great lockyer . For ther was neuer none , as farre as I can see , which hath made and counterfaited more keyes , nor which hath made them to agrée better to all locks .

Hillarius .

The experience doth witnesse it .

Theophilus .

I do think yet vpon an other reason , against that of Eusebius . If thou wilt limit the ministry The priesthod of the dead . of Saint Peter and of the Apostles , within the compasse of heauen , and wilt not suffer their power to bée stretched foorth euen to the confins and ende of Purgatorye , at the least thou shalt not denye mée , but that there be some Popes , Cardinalls , Bishoppes , Priestes , and Monkes in Purgatory , 〈◊〉 thou wilt say y● the● do ●o all straight way into paradise , or into 〈◊〉 . Now if , they be in Purgatory , wherefore ●●e ye not suffer them to haue that office , in the places , where they are present .

Eusebius .

Bicause for that they are sinners as others are and subiect vnto one iudgement they are of the same condition as the others , and they cannot giue them that whereoff they themselues haue néede , and cannot haue it for them , Furthermore , as soone as they are dead , they are depriued from that office .

Hillarius .

I haue two reasons for to beate downe thy aunswere : The first is that I am abashed , that the Pope and his doe attribute vnto themselues the power to pardon all sinnes , how great and wicked soeuer they bée , yea , all Sodomy , and if néede hée , the sinne against the holy Ghost , notwithstanding that it bée irr●missible , and doe giue bul● and pardons for all , so that one doe bring them money , and that they haue also power to pardon the ve●●all sinnes in Purgatory . For according to your own doctrine , none are there deteined and kept but for the veniall sinnes . For the mortall sinnes , haue no purgation in the other world , but they must bee punished in hell . And as to that that thou sayest , that they are sinners , and subiect to the same paines in Purgatory , so are they in this worlde , and leaue not off therefore to absolue themselues the one to the other , although they shoulde haue killed Father and Mother : and so make themselues The papisticall creame . Character indelibilis . as white as the Collyers . Furthermore , you doe call the impression of your Creame and holy Oile with whiche you doe anointe the Pristes , when they doe take their orders , Charector indelibilis , that is to saye , a marke and a signe which cannot be put out nor defaced . If it be so , the P●iestes dooe abide and remaine alwayes Pristes , although they be dead . For you will not confesse , that that impression and marke is onely done vnto the bodye : But you doe affirme , that it penitrateth and pearceth euen to the soule : of which it can neuer be defaced nor abolyshed , yet neuerthelesse thou knowest better then I.

Theophilus .

They doe attribute vnto it such vertue , that they doe affirme for cert●ine , that a pr●est , notwithstanding so . Chanes . de sacra . Corp. Ch●● . that he be an heriticke , or an apostate , or desgraded , yet neuerthelesse be shall haue power alwayes to consecrate the body of God , as well as others , if he doe pronounce the sacramentall wordes vppon the hoast , with the intencion to consecrate .

Hillarius .

Beholde yet to confirme better my purpose I do not doubt for my parte , but that that Character is the marke , wherewith is marked the conscience of those The burning of the consience 1. T●●oth , 4. ● . 2. which shall giue héede vnto spirits of errour and deuilish doctrine , and which are Apostates of the faith , according to the prophecie of saint Paul . That is the marke of the great whore of Babylon without which one cannot sell The marke of the whore . Apoc. 13. c. 8 nor buy , nor haue any place in the Popish Church . That is a marke cleane contrary , vnto that which the Angell printed in the foreheads of the elect of God . Nowe sith Apoc. 7. ● , 4 that the Apostles of Iesus Christ , and the true bishoppes and priests , which by them were ordayned , haue not had that Cautor that is to say Marke ( I had thought to haue said Charecter ) I am not abashed , if they haue not such power in the other worlde , as the Pope hath in the same and in this . But it is an other thing of him and of his which do departe out of this worlde , with this Cauter ( I doe beguile my selfe alwayes ) I doe say The example of Fryer Roger . with that Char●●ter , which they do beare alwayes with them . Wherfore they ought to haue no lesser power there then here . And the same I wil proue by the example of Frier Rogers a C●rdelier , which is recyted in the booke of the conformities of saint Fraunces . It is there written , that after that he was deade , he appeared vnto a certeine woman , who confessed vnto him all hir sinnes , & hée gaue hir obsolution . If h● being deade had the power to come to heare the confession of the lyuing , and to absolue them , wherefore shall not his other compagnions béeinge deade haue , and chiefely the Popes and Byshoppes , who haue ordained them and confirmed them , as much power among the dead ? Furthermore , if according to the witnesse of your Doctors , others may satisfie for vs , not onely during our lyfe , but also after that we be dead , wherfore Tho. dist. ●5 q. 2. & dist. 20 q. ● . ar. 3. & dist. 4● . q. 4. ar. 1. cannot we after that we be dead satisfie for our selues , and to cause Masses to be song in Purgatory , sith that there are so many Priest's Popes , and Bishops for to doe it ? What thinkest thou Thomas .

Thomas .

Thou sayest well . But I thinke that they cannot haue their hoasts and singing cakes .

Hillarius .

Yet they had neuerthelesse fire inough for to séethe or bake their gods .

Thomas .

If it be so , as they say , there is too much . And therefore I thinke that they cannot haue hoasts , chalyces , aulters , nor vestements . For the fire will schorch and consume it all .

Hillarius .

Thou makest a good reason . But by that compt , how can the bulls and pardons of the Pope be kept and preserued from the fire , which are sent thether by hole cart loades , & which some do cause to be buried with them , for to cary them thether , sith that they are but paper and parchment ? The bulles in purgatory Asmuch may we say of the rule and habite of Saint Fraunces . What sayest thou Theophilus .

Theophilus .

There is yet an other poynt . If they will say that those which are in Purgatory , can no more merite , neyther for themselues , nor for others , they cannot say the lyke ( without speaking agaynst the doctrine , which they haue giuen vs ) of the saints which are in Paradise . For they doe affirme , that they pray vnto God for vs , & that they are our intercessors & aduocates towards The intercession of the Saints for vs . him , and that in séeing God , which séeth all things , they doe see all as in a Mirrour or looking glasse . If they doe pray for vs which are yet in this lyfe , bicause of the great Grego . Rat. 〈◊〉 off . ●● . 7 Rub. de off . Mort. loue and charitie that they haue towards vs , wherefore do they not also willyngly pray for their bretheren deteyned and kept in the fire of Purgatory ? For they shoulde haue a greate deale more reason to doe that , if they had anye care or charge of menne . And that for manye causes .

First that the estate and condition of the one and the other agréeth more , then it doth of the dead to the lyuing . Secondly , bicause that they themselues can better perceiue of their estate and condition , and whether they bée more in payne , or whethether they be out of it , then we . For there is more agréeing of the spirits to the spirits , which are seperated from the bodye , then to vs which are yet wrapped in them . And which is more , if that the soules of Aug. li. de ●ur . pro mor. Agen. 13. q. 2 Fatendum Ra● . d●●● . off . R●b . de off . mor. Purgatory doe know , eyther by diuine reuelation , or by the report of Angells , or of the soules of them which dayly doe depart out of this worlde , that which is done vppon earth , as your Doctors doe testifie and affirme , can they not aswell reporte and tell vnto the Saints that which is done in Purgatory ? It is not lyke to be true , i● there bée any , but that they are better aduertised then we , and that many wayes . And if they be aduertised , I cannot beléeue , that they are so inhumayne and vngentle , if they doe pray for the lyuing , but that they doe pray a great deale more for those poore soules : sith that they are in so gréeuous torments , without any comparison that may be in the world . I doe speake alwayes according to your doctrine . And this is the thirde reason , by the which I will conclude agaynst the Priestes , eyther that the Saints doe not praye for the lyuing : or the it is in lyke manner necessary and a great dele more néedeful that they pray for the dead . Now if they pray for the dead , I am of an opinion , that we leaue vnto them al the charge . For it agreeth better to them then vnto vs , sith that they are no more of this world , but of the other , in which are those that are dead : and that we haue no more cure and charge but of the lyuing . If they will deny that they doe not pray for the dead , I haue more iust and lawfull reason to deny vnto them , that they doe not pray for the lyuing : Except peraduenture they would say , that the Saintes were as cruell , as th●● which will suffer those poore soules alwayes to burne , which do bring vnto them no money .

Hillarius .

Thou hast put foorth very strong reasons .

But I will a little helpe Eusebius , to defende his cause , and will propounde and put forth reasons against th●●e to which thou shalt haue much a doe to aunswere . Thou speakest of the saints , what wilt thou saye , if I proue vnto thée by liuely & strong reasons , that the Pope The Pope hath more pow●r 〈◊〉 the sa●●ts hath more power and authoritie then they ?

Theophilus .

That should be an other ●atter .

Hillarius .

I will make thy selfe confesse it . Who hath more power and authoritie , either God or the saints ?

Theophilus .

There néedeth not an aunswere vnto thy question . For one may vnderstande it without speaking . There is not a Papist , but will ●asely confesse , that there is not a saint , which hath vertue nor power , but so much as God will giue vnto him .

Hillarius .

I haue my meaninge , and I will nowe make thée ye●de thy selfe vanquished . For thou hast alreadie confessed vnto me of thine owne prop●● mo●th , & hast co●firmed my proposition , the which I ●●l yet better proue vnto thee , and I will conclu●e all our dispu●a●ion in a little sillogisme . And I will take for my Maior and for the first proposition of my antecedent , that which thou hast confessed vnto me . Take then my Syll●gisme . God hath more power and authoritie then the Saintes . Nowe the Pope is God . ●●go , the Pope hath more power Syllogism● . and authoritie then the Saints . The Maior is alreadie confessed by thee . It resteth now but for to pr●ue the Minor , and the second proposition : and afterwards the consequence and conclusion s●albe cert●ine and ●●●uby●able . Nowe but that the Pope is God in ●arth , thou ca●st not d●ny●st , for many reasons , the which I will not n●we The pope is god ●●● more then god . sh●we forth . But I will do more . For I will pr●ue , that he is not onely the God on earth , but which is more , in heauen and in hell , and that he doth make things which God neuer did make .

Theophilus .

By that accempt , the Pope then shall not haue not only more power then the Saints , but more then God himselfe .

Hillarius .

It is very true , and thou thy selfe shalt Iudge it , prouided that thou do heare my reasons . I will not alledge for confirmation of my theame , that which saint Paul hath written of Antechrist , the man of sinne , Antechrist . 2. Thess. ● , 2. ● . ● the sonne of perdition , which exalteth himselfe aboue all that is called god , or which is worshipped , so that he shal sit as god in the Temple of God , and shew himselfe as God : Notwithstanding that that Prophecie and titles doe agrée meruaylously well to that God of whom we speake . But I will procéede by an other way , the which shall serue for an exposition of those words of Saynt Paul .

Theophilus .

If thou doest as thou sayst the Pope and all the Papists shall be much bounde vnto thée . For they say onely that he is God in earth . Now if he be but God in the earth , he hath then nothing in heauen : And he must not open the gates of Paradise vnto the soules of Purgatory . And so I may serue my selfe with their publyque witnesse , for to proue that which I said of his keyes , which cannot be stretched foorth out of this earth .

Hillarius .

A man may easely reply thereon . For according to their doctrine , Purgatory is in the earth . Wherefore , sith hat he is God in earth , he may well haue some power . There should be an other reason , if Purgatory were The place of Purgatory . Plut. l● . de fa●●● qu● v●situr in Luna● . betweee the Moone and the earth , where Plutarch putteth it : except they will say that with the earth they doe also compare the ayre and all the other elements , making the Pope aswell God in the ayre , water and fire , as in the earth : at the least thou wilt not deny , but that he may wel haue the keyes of hell , for to leade thether the soules : and The keyes of hell . that he is the God of the same , if it be in the center of the earth , according to the common opinion of his Doctors . But for to come vnto the matter , thou which art a Theologian knowest , that there be two manner of wayes to The maners to know God ●xod. ●● . ● 23 To see God bef●re & 〈◊〉 see and know God . There is a manner to sée him before : a●● a manner to see him behinde . To see him before , that is to say in his beeing , glory , and maiestie , it is not giuen vnto mortall man . For he shall not be capable of such vision and knowledge . And therefore hée aunswered vnto Moses , who desired to see his glory , that he should not sée ●●o . ●● . ● . 20 it before , but he would shew vnto him onely his hinder and backe parts . I doe vnderstand and meane according to that which I haue learned of some Theologians , that to see and know the backe partes of God , that is to see and know him by his workes , by his effects , and in his creatures . For sith that he is incomprehensible vnto man in his substaunce , glory and maiestie , the way and manner that he hath giuen vnto man for to know him , is this : to witte , by his word : by his workes : by his effects : and his creatures : with which man ought to content himselfe without enquiring curiously of the nature and essence of God , the which we cannot comprehende . what knowledge of god is necessary for vs For we haue no neede to enquire what ●e is in himselfe : but what he is towards vs : the which he hath manifested vnto vs chiefely by Iesus Christ his sonne : by the workes that hée hath done and made in him & by him , and that he doth alwaies . And the maner of knowledge , after the maner of the speaking Argument A posteriori of the dialecticians & Logitians , may be called A posteriori . I will then proue A posteriori , the deite of the Pope : that is to saye , by his workes and by his effects .

Thomas .

I will make heere a lyttle incident or state . Thou hast now altogether astemed mée , in hearing thée speake . For thou art runne more déeper and profounder in Theologie , then euer Theophilus hath yet done , which neuerthelesse is a better Diuine and Theologian then thou art .

Hillarius .

I haue also learned the greatest parte of that which I know of Theologie of him . But I woulde also that thou shouldest know , that notwithstanding that you doe accompt me but for a foole and a babler , yet I am notwithstanding some thing wiser then you doe thinke , but that wisdome continueth not with mee much .

For I will now cast my selfe into an other Theologie , contrary vnto this . Yet neuerthelesse for to enter therevnto , and the better to declare the difference that is betwéene the diuine Theologie and the Theologie Papall , I will beginne my probation by the author●tie of Ieremie saying : Iere. 1● . d. 20 Can a man make those his gods ? He rebuketh the Idolatrie of the people of Israel , and therefore he maketh that Man making gods . demaund , as of a thing impossible . For how can a man make gods , sith that he cannot be made himselfe , if God doe not make him ? How shal he then make gods ?

Yet neuerthelesse the Pope attributeth that power vnto himselfe . Wherefore it must néedes be that he be more then man : yea more then God . For we doe not read that God did euer make gods , to take God in his proper signification . For he alone will be God , and there can be no more but one alone : or otherwise he should not be God . Except One onely god . Deut. 6. ● . 4 we will doe as Plato , to haue a great God , which maketh other lyttle gods . Therefore hath he sayd that he is God , Psa. 42. ● , ● & . 48 ● and that he will not giue his glory and power to none other . But the Pope taketh authoritie and power not onely to make Gods and Saints , but also to vnmake them agayne : the which I will proue vnto thée briefely . And without alleadgeing many examples for to auoyde proli●itie , I will put foorth but one , by which one may iudge of the others . I will take Boniface the eight of whom Platin giueth this witnes , for the ep●loge & conclusion of his legend , Boniface the ● . saying : In this sort & maner died Boniface , he which enforced himself more to giue terror & fear vnto emperors , kings princes , nations & people , then to induce & lead them in religion : & which endeuoured himself to giue & take away kingdomes : to chase & banish men & to bring them againe at his To take away and giue ●ingdome● . pleasure : hauing more greater thirst and desire of the gold , the which he got out of al parts , more then one could declare . Now this differeth not from that which the Decrées and Canons d● witnesse of the power . of the Pope , saying : That it aperteineth vnto him that he may giue , take away , chaunge transport the empires & kingd●ms , principalites & s●ig●●or●es , as many among them of long time haue practised , and shewed by effect , of whom the examples shal be to long to rehearse . Now we cannot deny , but that the same is an act proper vnto God alone , according to the witnesse of Dan●el 〈◊〉 ● , 3 , 4. ● and of all the Prophets . Sith then that the pope vsurpeth vnto himselfe , that is already a c●rt●●ne witnesse of his de●tie : And without abandoning and forsaking Boniface , Plat in ●it . B●●●f 8 〈◊〉 ●ing of 〈◊〉 he himselfe did not sh●w himselfe ne●lygent in that matter , agaynst Philip king of Fraunce , of whom he demaunded the Arch●●a●ry of Na●bon , for to declare vnto him , that if he did not release out of pr●s●n a Bish●ppe which by him was sent thether , that his kingdome was co●●●●a●● vnto the Church , and that the king was excommunicated and cursed : and that he would delyuer and absolue all the Frenchmen of the oath and f●a●t●● that they made vnto the king .

Theophilus .

Behold there a goodly acte of deitie . But there is nothing which is more common vnto them then that .

H●ll●rius . I will yet declare vnto thée of others which are no lesse aua●leable , the which Plati●● rehearseth in like maner . What do the words signifie that he sayd vnto Prochet the Archbishop of Genes , when he did cast down himselfe Prochet Archbyshoppe of Genes. 〈◊〉 d●●● . 〈◊〉 The as●hes of pope Bo●●ace , Me●eto homo . quia 〈◊〉 ●● , & ●● 〈◊〉 reuer●●r●● . G●bell●●s . Memeto hom● quia G●bell●●●●●● , & cum Gibell●●● 〈◊〉 re●●r 〈◊〉 . at his f●●te vpon Ashwed●●sday ? Wher the Priests were accustomed to say : Remember man that thou art ashes , and into ashes thou shalt ●etourne agayne : he sayde vnto him , in chaunging some words : Remember man that thou art a Gibell● and with the Gibelli●s thou shalt retourne into ashes . And after that he had sayd vnto him that , hée did not put the ashes vpon the head as the custome is , but did cast them in his eyes , and depriued him of his Archbishoprick● : Afterwardes he restored ●t to him agayne , when he did vnderstand that the Card●●als were n●t 〈◊〉 red and come from Genes. Thou doest héere s●● that hée maketh and vnmaketh Bishops , as he lyst , and speaketh as a God : He maketh men to r●t●●●n● into ashes , euen as from ashes they came . And for to make that goodly act shew the fayrer , I wil rehearse vnto the two others , which are yet more better witnesses of the Popish d●●tie .

The first is of Stephen the sixt , who wa● so mad against The ●●g●●nd Pope Formosus , that after that he had taken his counsel , madnesse ●● Pope Stephen against ●o●●osus . caused his body to be taken out of his tombe , afterwardes spoiled him of his pontifical & Popish apparel , and in stéed of them caused him to ●ée cladded with laye mens apparell , and did cut off the two fingers of the right hande , the which the Priestes vsed in their consecration , afterwards , caused them to be cast into the ●●ud Tiber , and commaunded that he should be buryed as a lay man , in the graue and burial o● the lay men . Now consider , ●f one Pope hath such power ouer an other Pope , which neuerthelesse is God , and not onely God , but can make God , and vnmakers of Goddes , which doe take power of him to make Gods , let vs thinke what power hée can haue ouer others . For in the time that Formosus was Pope , he could not haue bene in the Popedome , nor in the order of Priesthoode , but that hée did make Gods , of his two fingers which were cut off , and cast into Tyber . Furthermore , how many Cardinals , Bishops , Priestes , and Monkes were made Plat. in vit. Steph. ● . St●ll●●leri●or● O ●e●era●d● sacerd●tum dign●tas , si digne & sacerdo ta●●●er vixeris ●ntra quorum manus , velut in v●ero virginis , filius d●i incarnatur . Item . Iste qui crea●●t me , ded●t m●hi crear● s● . Qui crea●it ●e sine me , creatur med●ante me . The creatours of the Cr●a●our during his Popedome : which all of them were forgers , and makers of Gods ? And yet neuerthelesse they could not haue that power but of him . Wherefore one might rightly say of him : The Lord , the God of Gods. For there is not a Priest of how smal learning soeu●r he be , which according to their doctrine , but dareth to attribute vnto himselfe the power to make Gods. For which I will haue none other witnesse , but their booke , intituled Stella clericorum , in which are written such woordes : O howe venerable is the dignitie of the Priests , betwéene whose handes the sonne of God is incarnate , as in the wombe of the Virgin : And afterwardes speaking●●n the person of the Priest . Hee which hath created mée , hath giuen me power to create him . Hée which hath created me without mée , is created by the meanes of mée . Afterwardes , hée concludeth : sith then that the Priest is of so greate a dignitie , that hée is the creator and maker of his creator , and of euery creature , it is not conuenient to loose or damne him . They do● finde it inconuenient that God should damp●e the priests , bicause that they are the creators Item Cum ergo tā●e dignitatis sit sacerd●● quod creator sit sui creator●● , & tot●● creaturae , ipsum perdere vel damnare incōuenien● est . Vnde Isidorus . Sicut patrem interficere filium impos●bile est , sie creatorem perdere creaturam in conuenient est . Sylla & Mar●●is . of him . And yet neuerthelesse the popes may wel condempne the popes , yea , out of this world , sithence that they are before God their souereigne Iudge , which are not onely priests , but which is more , doe make the priests . Doest thou finde this straunge Thomas ?

Thomas .

To speake the truth , those Gods doe handle very euill the one the other .

Hillarius .

I doubt not but that which pope Stephen hath done vnto Formosus , doth not séeme straunge vnto thée . But pope Sergius the third hath done vnto him worse .

Thomas .

Then that poore soule Formosus was most vnhappy after his death . They haue done against the prouerbe , which forbiddeth to fight with the dead .

Hillarius .

Thou maist haue well sayd it , if thou hadst heard the history all out . The crueltie of L. Sylla against Marius was not so great . But I thincke neuerthelesse but that those popes haue taken their patron vpon him . For so did he cause Marius to be taken out of the earth after that he was dead to be auenged of him . And Sylla fearing that one should not doe to him the like after he was dead , commaunded that his body should be burned . For vntill his time the famelly of which he came off , accustomed to bury the bodyes of the dead , and had not as yet burned them as others did . But for to retourne vnto Sergius , thou must vnderstande . First , that he hath so reproued all the actes of Formosus , that those whom Formosus did make priestes , shoulde retourne Plat. In vit● . Serg. 3. Sergius & Fermesus . againe to take their orders of him , iudging those vnworthy to be priests whom Formosus had made , if they did not the same . And not being content to haue done that dishonour vnto Formosus after his death , caused his body to be taken out of the sepulchre againe , and did not onely cut off the fingers , or the hand , as Stephen his predecessor did , but did cut of his head as a malefactor , euen so as though he were a liue . Afterwardes did cast the body into the stud ●yber , as vnworthy of buriall and humaine honour . ●hou canst not now denie Theophilus , but that the popes haue power ●oth ouer the Gods , and ouer the quick and the dead . And for more greater confirmation hereoff , To excommunicate the dead . 2. 4. q. Sane . 2 they haue their Canons , which do giue vnto them power to iudge , not onely the quicke but also ouer the dead , and to excommunicate & accurse the hereticks , but which to more , Pope Boniface hath better declared his diuine power , against S. Harman , whose body and bones he caused to bee Herman condempned by the Pope . Plat. in vit. Bonis . 8. digged vp , whom those of Ferrara haue honoured & accompted for a Saint already the space of xx . yeares , & condempned him for an heretick , and burned him : As some say that they haue also done the like of wikchf , who neuertheles was of better learning than his aduersaries . But that same is alwaies common to all the papistical sect , as de Roma the defiler of the faith hath well confirmed it those yeares past , in two poore faithfull Christians at Aix in Prouence . Hée hath stocked & imprisoned them so much , & hath so scorched and burned their feete & anckles within their bootes , which he filled with grease , and so putting to fire , that those poore people & martyrs of Iesus Christ could not tary the time to be altogether burned , but they died whilest that he was absent , & were buried by the hangman in vnhallowed ground , bicause that they were accompted by them for heretickes . Yet neuerthelesse that cruel tyrant de Roma could not be ●f ●oma the ●hler of the ●aith . contented with all that , but was very angry bicause they buried them , & caused them to dig them vp againe , & to burne the being dead , sith that he could not burne them being aliue . On the contrary , euen as Boniface , hath caused this S. Ha●man to be digged vp & to be condemned for an hereticke & bu●ned Saint Herman . him , who neuerthelesse was accompted for a Saint● he hath also canonised S. Lewes , who was of the bloud roial , who as Saint Lewes . canonized . some men say , was professed of the order of S. Fraunces . Also in like manner , pope , Felix & Gregory haue ordeined that one should celebrate yearely , feasts & sacrifices in the memory of the martyrs . Now what other thing is y● but to iudge than saints & to deify them ? But to the end that euery one do not attribute vnto themselues the power to make Gods as the popes , & that euery one do not honor him that commeth in their fantasy . Pope Alexander the third hath ordeined that no man should be holden and accompted for a Saint , and that no diuine honour shoulde be attributed vnto him except that he were first inrolled among the Saintes and canonised , by the commaundement and ordinaunce of the Apostolical seate . That commaundement and degrée is written in the decretals , in the title of the reliques of Saints . Sith then that he canoniseth and maketh Saintes , afterwards when they are made he vnmaketh them , it followeth then that he maketh and vnmaketh the Gods , & that he is Iudge both of the quicke and of the dead . For all that is God vnto man to whom he giueth the honour due vnto God . Now we cannot denie but that the superstitious and Idolaters do giue vnto their Saintes and vnto dead men , the ●onor Dead men the gods vnto Idolaters . due vnto God alone . Wherefore it followeth that they are their Gods , as well as to the Idolaters , those whom they haue accompted for Gods , which neuerthelesse were dead men , which haue ben canonised by the kings , Princes and Senates , and the common errour of the people , euen as the Herodia . li. 4. pope & the superstitious do yet vse at this day . Sith then that the pope maketh and vnmaketh such Gods , which are dead men , and iudgeth , condempneth , and absolueth them , it followeth then that he is the Iudge of the quicke & the dead : the which is also declared , by the example of the Emperour Henry the fourth , who was excommunicated : afterwards was put into a cruel prison , in the citie of Liege , by his proper Henricus . 4. and onely sonne , in the which he was strangled : and so as many do affirme , by the commaundement of his owne sonne , who secretly sent vnto him the hangman . And therfore for that he dyed excommunicated , hée was not buryed in the holy ground , vntil that he was absolued and deliuered from his excommunicating , after his death , by the pope : by the meanes of which absolution , hée was caried to Spire , to the sepulchre of his fathers . Wilt thou now deny , that the pope hath not more power then the Saintes , & that he is not greater Lord then Iesus Christ , & asmuch to be feared or rather more then God ? For Iesus Christ hath said , & witnessed ●●●rely , that his kingdome is not of this world .

But the Pope will haue it both in this world and in the other . Furthermore , he admonisheth vs not to feare those Math , to , c. 28 which can but onely kill the body and do no more , but let vs feare him onely which is able to destroye both body and soule and to cast them into hell . Sith then that the Pope attributeth vnto himselfe such power , that after that that he hath killed the bodyes , he persecuteth stil the soules after the body is dead , and excommunicateth the dead and sendeth them into hell , who will deny that he is not God , and that he may not vse the authoritie of his keyes , as well towardes the dead , as towards the liuing ? And that his buls and pardons doe not extend and stretch foorth vnto The vertue of the bulles and pardons . the dead and to the soules of Purgatory ? As it appeareth by the doing of Pope Sixtus the fourth , Innocent the eight , Pascale the fift , Calistus , and a great many other Popes which haue giuen full remission by their buls and indulgences both to the quicke and the dead : And oftentimes for small causes : As for to goe and visite a certeine Chappell : to make a certeine voyage , and other like matters : But vpon condition , that he haue alwayes ready money . And the better to witnesse that Popish deitie , Pope Boniface the eight would not haue his Iubile among the Iubile of the Pope . Plat in vit. Bems . 8. ●ubile of God . Leuit. 5 , b. 11 Christians , as God had it amonge the Israelites , but of an other sort . For God ordeined the yeare of the great Iubile , from fiftie yeares to fiftie yeares , for to comfort the poore people : for to render and restore the wages and possessions vnto the poore that are in debt : for to deliuer the poore bondmen out of seruitude & bondage , and for to prefigure and foreshew the yeare of grace , and the deliuerance & liberty which Iesus Christ ought to bring vnto the Christian people , according to the prophesie of Esay and of the Luc , d. c , 16 Esa. 61 , a , 〈◊〉 other prophets . But the Pope Boniface in the yeare 1300 as if Iesus Christ was not come , and that he had not by his comming declared vnto vs the yeare of the great Iubile , which shall indure vntill the ende of the worlde , & by the which we are affranchised from the ser●tude of sinne , death , diuell , and of hell , as putting himselfe in the place of Iesus Christ , hath constitute● his Iubile , by the which he hath promised full remission of sinnes , vnto all those which will come visite at Rome the Chu●ch of Saint Peter , and of Saint Paul : And hath commaunded that it should be alwayes celebrated from an hundreth yeares vnto an hundreth yeares . For he feareth least the olde custome of the auncient Panims should in succession of time be altogether abolished .

Thomas .

What custome ?

Hillarius .

They haue accustomed The playes of the panyms . to play in the honor of their Gods , iests , histories and diuers other playes , which they do call seculer playes , bicause they do not celebrate it but from an hundreth to an Luds seculares . hundreth yeares . And therefore the Heraldes doe crye which declare and publish them : Come & sée the games the which none of you shal neuer se any more .

Eusebius .

But Boniface hath done cleane contrary to that y● thou sayest . For he hath constituted the Iubile for to abolish the memory of those Panish plaies .

Hillarius .

He hath chaunged playes into playes , and those which profited him nothing at all he hath chaunged them into others more profitable for him . But the other Popes which came afterwards , seing and perceiuing that that Iubile was too long for them , and that they could not haue so good a part for their pray , haue abrogated and made shorter the time . And therefore Pope Clement the sixt hath remitted it from 50. years to 50. years . Clement . 〈◊〉 . Plat. in vi●. Clement . 6. Sextu● B●nauenture de●●ied . Alexander . 6 And after him , Pope Sextus the fourth , who hath dei●ied and put among the saints . S. Bonauenture , hath agayne remitted it from xxv . yeares to xxv . years : and hath celebrated the first , in the yeare 1475. Afterwards , Alexander the sixt , who was pope in the yeare 1500. following the example of Sextus , hath yet better enlarged that Iubile . For ●e hath not onely held & kept it at Rome , but hath so enlarged it thorowout all Christendome , that there remayneth almost no citie , village , nor parish , but that he hath made them p●rta●ers of it .

Thomas .

They may then bée well called Gods liuetenaunts in earth . For sith that they do it 〈◊〉 y●●●●t , Iesus Christ is well at leasure . He ●ught to haue no great care , neither for the quicke nor for the dead , sith that he hath such liuetenauntes : we shall bée compelled The Pope the iudge of the quicke and of the dead . to chaunge our Credo , and whereas in the same we consesse that he shall come from heauen for to be the Iudge of the quicke and the dead , we must giue that title vnto the Pope .

Hillarius ,

A good Sophister wil easily absolue thy doubt . For wee confesse that Iesus Christ shall come at the time appointed . Wherefore they will conclude that Iesus Christ is not yet really and in euery déede , Iudge of the quicke and of the dead , but that he shal be : Or if thou wilt that I doe tell thée in their language : That he is Iudge , Non actu sed habitu & aptitudine , but that the Pope is , not onely in power remote & future , but actu , & in potentra propinqua propinquissima : that is to say , of act , d●ede , worke and power néere and present .

Thomas .

Beholve a goodly solution . In the meane while then , Iesus Christ shal rest , and the Pope shall doc●all .

Theophilu● .

I am abashed , if their buls , indulgences & pardons haue such power . How Gregory hath passed them Gregory . 〈◊〉 . hath made no mention of the bulles for the dead . ouer , without making any mencion of them , when he comprehended all the meanes by which the liuing , might comfort the soules of purgatory . For hée did put a●d declare ●nt foure , and touched not one word of the buls and pardons . But there is yet an other pointe , that which the doctor Hostiensis , which is of great reputation among the papises , Hostiensis contrary vnto the bul●es . was not of opinion that the pope can doe such thinges by his pardons and indulgences , but hath holden the contrary . ●ea , and the other doctors , as Bonauenture , Thomas of Scolastical doctours doubting of the bulles . Re●sperg . de mor. 〈◊〉 . ser. d●m . sexa . Aquin , Alexander of Ales , Giles , D●rand , Richard , Peter of Tarentais● , and many other like , hau● had sometime the thing in doubt , and haue onely disputed of it , as of an opinion : afterwardes haue taken vpon them baldnesse to define vpon it , and to giue their sentence , as if they were wel assured of it . But if that which they do write of the buls and pardons be true , it is great felly for the papistes , to bestowe any more any pennye , nor halfe pennye , neither for the funerals , nor for the masses , vigils , nor other suffrages for the dead , & that they should reiect a● other manner Bulles doing all thinges . of doings , for to hold themselues onely to the buls & pardons , and to buy them for to draw the s●ules from Purgatory . For it should not cost them so much , & should haue sooner dispatched & ri● away the poore soules from Purgatory . For if the Pope hath in his hands the treasure of the The treasor of the church , and the dispensation of the same . Alex. de A●es . In. 4. Sent. Re●sperg . de mor. virt. serm. D●m . in sexa . Church , & hath the power , as Alexander de Ales witnesseth , by the power of his keys , & by the meanes of his indulgences to distribute & bestow them , as wel to the liuing as to the dead , the Papistes haue no more néede of any other thing . For euen as they haue by their Masses and other inu●ntions , abolished & put out the vertue of the death and passion , and of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ , so the Popes , which haue bene the authors of the buls and indulgences haue abolished masses , suffrages , & al meritorious works , for the quicke & for the dead , which their predec●ssors haue inuented , without the word of God . And so by that meanes one shal haue no more néede , not onely of Iesus Christ , but also of their masses , nor of all that that they can do : but it is sufficient for al , to haue paper & parchment written , and buls signed & sealed with waxe or with lead . ●ut which is more , I am very much abashed , how they dare to attribute so much power ouer the dead , to their buls , keys & absolutions , sith that the Pope Gelasius and their decre●als & Canons doe witnesse and openly confesse , that the church can bind● and vnbinde those that be liuing , & not the dead : and that w●e doe not read , that the same was euer commaunded or done , not of Iesus Christ himselfe , which al●ne hath the power to do that . But hath said namely vnto S. Peter : Al that that thou shalt binde or vnbinde vpon the earth , shal be bound in heauen . He hath said namely , vpon earth . For he hath neuer The power of y●●e●es limi●ted in this world . 24 q. 2 ca. Quod aut . & le●atur . Mat , 16. c 19 sayd , that he that shal be dead being bound shal be vnb●und . Beholde the very wordes of the Canons , which doe well way the wordes of Iesus Christ , and doe confirme y● that I haue said , of the authoritie of the keyes , at the least in this place : in which is said very plainely , that by those words of the gospell is declared , that none can be excommunicated , or absolued a●ter he is dead . For he saith : That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde vppon earth . He sayth not vnder the earth , declaring that we may binde and vnbinde those that be alyue , for the diuersitie of their merits but we cannot giue sentence of the dead . Beholde the question that Gratian propounded , & the resolution in his owne words .

Thomas .

How can that agrée with that which hath 24. q 2. ca. Sane . bene alreadie alleadged of the very Canons , which doe giue power to excommunicate the Hereticks after they be dead . It must néeds be that the canons be contrary the Contrarietie of the Canons . one vnto the other .

Theophilus .

That is not newe nor rare with them . But the glosers doe excuse that by their interpretacions and exceptions . I doe not denye , but that we may condempne To excommunicate the doctrine of the dead . dempne after that one is deade the false doctrine that a man and an Hereticke shall holde during his lyfe , if then it be manifested , euen as it might bée done by some of them of whom they doe alleadge the examples , for to aduertise the Churches , to the ende that the faythfull might the better kéepe themselues . But to excommunicate and curse the persons , I knowe or sée not how that can bée bo●ne with all by the holy Scripture , ●ith that they are before theyr Iudge , vnto whome the Angells did sende the Diuell , as is written of Michael the Archangell , who The angells durst no● curse the diuell . 〈◊〉 pist. Iud. b. 9 disputing with the Diuell about the body of Mo●es , durst not vse rayling iudgement agaynst him , but said vnto him : The Lord rebuke thée : Yet neuerthelesse those heere dare to enterprise more agaynst men both quick and dead , then the Angells durst agaynst the Diuels : although that they holde them already for most certe●●e to be condemp●●ed of God .

Hillarius .

I am yet abashed of one thing . If the Pope haue such power to giue full remission from payne and fault by his bulles & moulgences , aswell for the quick as for the soules of the dead , I meruayle that hée hath not already long sithence made empti● and cleansed Purgatory : and that he hath not fetched out all the soules , sith that he giueth so many pardons dayly and hourely , and not only he , but al ●is Cardinals , bishops , priests & monks .

Eusebius .

In. 4 sent. Re●s●erg . de m●r . v●r. ser. d●m . 〈◊〉 . There is a goodly aunswere vnto that question . The first is , for that there goeth euery day new into Purgatory . The other is , euen as Saint Thomas & saint Bonauenture doe aunswere vnto that obiection , that it is very requisite and needefull , before that the indulgence and pardon be auayleable , that it haue reasonable cause : The dispensation of the treasure of the Church . and that the dispensation of the goods and treasure of the church ( in which are assembled and comprised al the merits of Iesus Christ & all the merits of al the Saints and Saintes , which euer were ) should be done with moderation and discression : Vnto whome the pardons do profyt . or otherwise god will not accept it . And therefor the pardons & indulgences are not giuen vnto any person , eyther for him or for any other , be he quicke or dead , but by reason of some good worke that he hath done , eyther for him selfe , or in the name of those for whome the pardon is giuen . And therefore is lymitted the power of all those which haue the charge to giue them , & al do know , be they Cardinals , Archbishops , Bishops , Abbots , Moonks or Priests , The power to giue pardons lymitted . how many they may giue euery day : except the Pope , which hath not his power limitted , except he vse them vnreasonably , the pardons then that he wil giue , shal not be auaileable with god .

Hillarius .

I vnderstand what thou wouldest say . The pope hath heaped vp together all the merits of Iesus Christ , of the patriarchs , prophets , Apos ; tles , Martirs , confessors , virgins , saints & saintes of paradise , & of al the Christian Church in a treasure , and a garner of which he alone hath the keyes and can open or shut , & distribute little or much , when he will and as it pleaseth him . The great Lockyer or locksmyth . For he is the great lockesimth . But al the others are but as his seruaunts , of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of euery one , in such sort , that they cannot distribute , but that that he hath delyuered vnto them , and of whom they haue the keyes . Wherefore if it behoueth that hée haue in the treasury & garner a great many of seuerall chambers and cabins , of which many must haue the keyes euery one his owne , for to depart and bestow that whereoff he hath the dispensation , without daring to touche the rest , except that sometimes , those lyttle varlets and lockesmithes doe picke the locke and the dore of the great loksmith Picke lockes . and great treasurer , he knowing nothing thereoff , and that he be not therewithall content : although that vnder his name and title , they streth foorth their power , as séemeth good vnto them , and doe forge keyes , bulles and pardons as many as they lyst , and alwaies at the costs of the poore people . Now the great lockesmith hath no lymit , but that he hath alwaies reasonable cause , for to giue buls and pardons as many as one woulde , so that money doe come : or otherwise he will suffer the poore soules to be rosted and tormented in Purgatory , as long as the world shall continue , for want of one leafe of paper or parchment with a lyttle waxe and leade . As concerning the others which haue the daies limitted that they may giue pardons , I haue a certeine doubt , the which I would that I were resolued of it by thée Eusebius . For sith that the one hath power to giue two or thrée thousand , an other two or thrée hundreth , an other an hundreth fiftie , fortie , thirtie or twentie , either more or lesse . I would gladly know of thée what Clockes of Purgatory . horologes & clocks , & what quadrans they haue in purgary , for to measure those dayes there . For sith that there is no sun , moone nor stars , what daies & what yeres can they haue ? For the time is taken of the morning , of the heauen & of the course of the sunne . But those which are in purgatory , haue nothing of al this : Wherfore I cannot comprehend what yeres , what months , dayes & houres they can haue : & whether they be very long or short . Example of the long dayes in Purgatory . As far as I can imagine , by an example which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his sum , the daies ought ther to be meruailous long . For he saith , that an Angell caryed thether a soule of a man , to whome hée promised , that it shoulde tary there but an houre . And as soone as that Angell did come agayne to see that soule , it did begin to crye out vpon him , and to call him lyer , deceiuer and traytor .

Thomas .

To what purpose ?

Hillarius .

It sayd vnto him : Thou hast promised me , that I should be but an houre and I haue bene heere already more then an hundreth yeres . But the Angel aunswered vnto him : There wanteth a great many my friende . For thou hast not yet taryed a quarter of an houre .

Wherefore I doe conclude , that it must needes be that the dayes and yeares be there very long , sith that a quarter of an houre is there compared to a hundreth or thousande yeares of ours : or els that the fire is there meruaylous hotte , and that the time continueth long to the poore soules .

Eusebius .

I will tell thée as touching the pardons , it hath bene long time sithence , that many people doe know that there is in them great abuses . Wherefore I will not much breake my braynes to maynteine them .

Theophilus ,

I doe also iudge it lost time to speake of such abuse , if I did not sée that sithence the time of Gregory , so many people to haue bene abused , & that so many great Doctors , which are most estéemed amongst the Sophisters and Schoolemen , haue written of it , and haue confirmed it so assuredly .

Hillarius .

The power of the deal ouer the Popes I know that thou doest beginne already Eusebius , to agree with vs . I beléeue that thou art of this opinion , that the Pope ought to let the dead rest , without reigning ouer them , sith that they haue more power ouer the Pope , then the Pope ouer them : as I will proue it by an example taken from the Autentike booke , which is intituled the conformities of Saint Fraunces . For I haue neuer read that the Pope hath raysed to lyfe any dead person , and that he came to aunswere before him , of all those whom he hath cyted , condempned , absolued , or excommunicated . But that booke doth witnesse manifestly that Fryer Walter a Cordelier and Bishop of Poytiers , hath Pope Clement the 〈◊〉 by Fryer Walter being dead . caused to be cyted after his death by a Cedule , Pope Clement the firt , for to appeare before the eternall Iudge , bicause that he had vniustly deposed him from his office .

Thomas .

And did the Pope appeare there by vertue of that Cytacion ?

Hillarius .

If the booke lye not , that was no iest . For at the verye same daye which was prescribed vnto him , the Pope dyed of a sodeyne death , and departed sodeinely for to goe and aunswere there . What sayest thou by this Eusebius ? If this history be false , it is a great dishonor for the Cardeliers , who do make great accompt of that booke , and doe holde it to be very pretious among them , as a relicke , and reuelation . And for the Pope also which hath confirmed the order of saint Fraunces , and of the foure Mendicants . I know not what good meanes we may héere finde for to maynteine that buylding , and The foundacion of the order of the Mendicants . the honour and authoritie both of the one and of the other . For sith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Fraunces , the order of saint Fraunces is buylded and staied vppon the Pope , wherefore when the Pope shall fall , which is the stone and foundation of that Church and of that buylding , also shall fall the buylding , the order and the rule of the Mendicants . Now we cannot deny , but that example doth ruinate & ouerthrow the Pope & all his power . I do not dispute whether that the history be true or false . For I beléeue that is as true as it is true that the Pope is God , & saint Fraunces conformable & agréeing to Iesus Christ , as that booke ful of blasphemies enforceth it selfe to proue it . But I consider onely , that sith that the Cordeliers haue written such an history , & do maynteine it by their bookes , that they doe abate asmuch the authoritie and power of the Pope , as the Pope doth confirme their rule and order . For how can this witnesse agrée , with this proposition ? The Pope cannot erre ? And with the exposition which Eccius and his lyke doe make of those words ? Thou arte Peter and vppon that rocke I will buylde my congregation , and the gates of hell shall not preuayle agaynst it .

If the Pope be that rocke or stone , and that stone is fallen , it must néedes be that all the Popish church doe fall with it , and the orders of the foure Mendicants , which are his foure Euangelysts , and his principall pillers . And The Popes euangelistes . so by that meanes the Cordeliers whome the Pope hath made , doe vnmake the Pope , which hath made them , and the creature vnmaketh his creator , and the creator his creatures .

Theophilus .

It chaunced to them , as to the Madianits , The papistical Madianites . Iudg 7 , g. ●2 . which destroyed themselues the one the other , with their owne weapons , when they heard the sound of the trompets , and pitchers of the army of Gedeon , and saw the lyght of his torches . So in lyke manner sith that Iesus Christ , our true Gedeon , hath put the trompets of his gospell . The true Gedeon into the handes of his lyttle army , the which , by vertue of his holy spirite , he maketh to sounde euen vnto the endes of the worlde , and causeth the lyght of his worde and gospell to shine thorow out the earth , we ought not to doubt , but that all those Madianits shal be in short time discouraged and discom●ited , according to the Prophecie of Esay : notwithstanding that the flocke and company of Esa. 9. 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ be lyttle . For it is puissant inough by vertue of their capitayne : besides that they themselues shall bée discomfited with their owne swerde , and shall fall into ruine , with their Purgatory which hath but a lyttle hold or stay except thou do bring vnto it agayne some stone and morter for to repaire and amende it .

Eusebius .

I will employ all the meanes or wayes that I can finde out . And therefore marke and regard how thou shalt ryd and discharge thy selfe of that which is written in Saint Luke . where Iesus Christ saith : The seruaunt The place of Saint Luc. 12 〈◊〉 . 47. that knoweth his masters will and prepareth net himselfe neyther did according to his will , shall bée beaten with many stripes : But he that knew not his masters will , and yet did committe many things worthy of stripes , shal be beaten with few stripes . Now it is euen so , that in hell there is neither little nor much . For the paynes there are infinite . And therefore it is called the hell fire , the ertreame darkenes . Wherefore it followeth that that pathe Mat 22 b. 17 of which is heere spoken off , cannot be vnderstanded but of the same of Purgatory , in which may be more or lesse .

Theophilus .

There should be no hell if thou wilt so interprete the scripture . What opinion hast thou of those The iudgement of the Sodomits and Gomorrians Genos . 19. c. 24. of Sodome and Gomorrha : Doest thou thinke that they be in hell or in Purgatory ?

Eusebius .

I beleeue that they are in hell : sith that their iniquitie hath bene so great , that it must needes bee that God hath consumed them , thorowe the fire of his iudgement .

Theophilus .

If there were founde among them some , who féelyng the iudgement of God vppon them , haue remembred the preaching & admonitions which Loth made vnto them by the word of god , and which haue had repentaunce and were sory for their sinnes , in requiring mercie of God with a good heart and good affection in the middest of the fire : I will not maynteine that God hath refused vnto them grace and mercie . For he hath promised vnto E●e●h . 18 , 〈◊〉 . 2● the sinner , as often as with a good heart he shall retourne vnto him . Now if there be any such among them , I leaue that to the iudgement of God , who knoweth all things and those that are his . For he punisheth sometimes some 2. Timo● . 2. c. 1● . men with corporall paynes , with the reprobate , the which notwithwanding he condempneth not with them to eternall dampnation , he punisheth them corporally , as he chastiseth and correcteth his elect by aff●ictions , eyther bicause The punishment of the elect with the reprobate . that they haue bene neglygent in rebuking the wicked and vicious : or els that they haue giuen some consent vnto their vices , and haue not hadde in recommendation the honour of GOD as they ought to haue had .

But bicause that they haue not abidden and continued hard hearted , & haue not sinned against the holy Ghost , the Lord mittigateth their payne , and is contented to chastice and correct them corporally , for to humble them , to make them to acknowledge their faulte , and for to bée an example vnto others : As the Apostle witnesseth of the Corinthians , who for the dispising of the Supper of Iesus Christ , were chastised of God with diseases and death . Such might be the kindred of Loth. For it is not lyke to be true that Loth woulde haue taken allyaunce The kindred of Loth. with them , if they had ben altogether as abhominable as the others of the citie . Yet neuertheles bicause they were vnbeleeuing & of incredulytie , and that they lyghtly regarded all things , they were punished with the others , for to giue others to vnderstande , that it is not good to dwell among the wicked and to support their iniquitie . Yet neuerthelesse I leaue the same to the iudgement of God , who knoweth the hearts . But I onely speake this to the ende we doée not iudge rashly of his secrets and iudgements , & except we haue expresse reuelation : but those that haue perseuered in such a heart and such affection as they had , when they would haue done vyolence vnto Loth , and to his guests which he had receyued into his house , and are dead in that wicked minde , I doubt not but that they are perished . For we haue the expresse word of god , of the condempnation of such persons . For I doubt not that of those Iesus Christ speaketh not , when hée spake vnto his Apostles , of those which re●ected the preaching of the Gospell : Verely I say vnto you , that those of Sodoma Math. 10. b. 15 and Gomorrha shall be handeled more easely in the day of Iudgemet then those there . In what place shall be that handlyng ? That shall not be in Paradise . For where there is no payne , there néedeth no mitigation . Neyther shall it be in Purgatory : For according to your owne doctrine , it shall then cease . It must néedes be then in hell .

Eusebius .

But how can that be in hell , sith that the paine there is infinite .

Theophilus .

Thou must vnderstande , that there is not so lyttle a payne , which is not infinite and importable , vnto him which is forsaken of God , but yet neuerthelesse God may and can make his iudgement , his wrath and indignation to be felt vnto some more then to other some . But it followeth not therefore , but that all men are constrained to cary it , and but that it is a burthen importable to all men . Therefore it is so often written , that those which shal haue most sinned shal be most punished . Now those vnto whome God hath giuen more fauour and grace , and hath giuen more knowledge of his wil , then the others , doe sinne most griuously . For they declare a more greater ingratitude , malice and stubbernesse , & haue lesse excuse . But it followeth not therefore , that the ignorance and negligence doth excuse the others , but that they Ignorance doth excuse none . haue their part , Iesus Christ manaseth with a more grieuouser iudgement those which shall reiect his Gospell bicause that God hath shewed vnto them more grace and fauour , then vnto the Sodomites and Gomorrians . Wherfore they doe render themselues more culpable and inexcusable . But although that the Gospell hath not bene preached so cléerely and plainly vnto the Sodomites & Gomorians , as vnto vs , yet Iesus Christ doth not excuse them therefore altogether , nor absolueth them of the iudgement of God . But for to amplyfie the ingratitude & malice of Punishment vppon those which do reiect the gospell . those which reiect the benediction and blessing of God , he compareth them to the most execrablest that euer were vpon the earth . Not for to iustifie the others , but the better to confound those héere , demonstrating vnto them that their iniquitie is so abhominable , that God condempneth them whiche maye bée accompted and taken for good men , in comparison of these : not that they are , but in comparison of the excessiue iniquitie of those héere . After this manner we must vnderstand that place of S. Luke , without dreaming out a Purgatorye . For the paine of which Iesus Christ speaketh off , maye bée héere in this worlde : or at the daye of iudgement : or in hell , as the same of the Sodomites , Gomorrians and their lyke . Or thou shalt bée constrayned to put into Pargatorye all the wicked and reprobate , which haue bene sithence the beginning of the worlde . For the Lorde doth alwayes menace and threaten with more grieuous paine the successors sors , then the predecessors , bicause that they doe agrauate alwayes more & more the iudgement of God vppon them , bicause that the light is more greater reuealed vnto them , and that they haue more examples of the iudgements of God , that which they despise : & do yéeld themselues culpable , not onely of their wickednessé , but also of the sinnes of their fathers and predecessors , allowing them by their doings .

Thomas .

The sleepers and dreamers may take from that place an argument for to proue their dreames , bicause it séemeth by the words of Iesus Christ , that the paine of the Sodomits and Gomorrians is differred vntill the day of iudgement . But thou hast already shortned and cut off the way for them , in declaring vnto vs bow the iudgement is already done , and how it is yet to doe .

Theophilus .

These two places ought very well to incitate and stirre vs forward to follow veritie and to seke it . For ignoraunce exempteth vs not from the iudgement of God , the which commeth of our fault , chiefely in these dayes , that the Gospell is so cléerely reuealed vnto vs .

Eusebius .

Therefore I desire to know and well vnderstand all those places which might yet trouble my braines , amonge which there is one in the actes of the Apostles , which some men doe interprete for the Purgatory . It is there written , that God hath raised vp Iesus Christ , and 〈◊〉 place of the Act. 1. d. ●4 〈◊〉 s●d the sorrowes of Hell. Nowe he hath not loosed the sorrowes of the hell fire or gebenne , which are eternall : nor of the Limbe . For there is to be had ioy and consolation . It followeth then , that the same ought to bée vnderstanded of the sorrowes of Purgatory . As much may we say of many like places which are in the Psalmes , as these héere , vnto which Dauid said : The sorrowes of hell compassed 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ●e . Then Lord hast brought my soule out of hell . God shall deliuer my soule from the power of hell , when 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Psa● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , ●3 he 〈◊〉〈◊〉 . And Iob sayth in like manner : O that thou wa●idest ●eepe mée and hide mée in the hell , vntyll thy wrath ●ere stilled : and to appointe me a time , wherein thou mightest remember mée ? what other hel can we héere vnderstand , then Purgatory ?

Theophilus .

I am abashed of the great ignorance of such interpreters of the scripture . For first , in the place of the acts , it is not in the Gréeke copies the sorrowes of hel , and it was not so written of S. Luke . For he hath sayd , the sorrowes of death , and not of hell : although that in your common translation it is written as thou sayest . But although it were so , all shoulde come to one ende . For the text doth plainely declare , that Saint Peter speaketh in that Sermon of the resurrection of Iesus Christ , and that hée himselfe expoundeth hell , for the tribulations , extreme sorrowes , the death , the pit , the sepulchre , the low places , and the estate and condition of the dead , from which Iesus Christ is raised . He maketh there no mencion of the Limbe , of Purgatory , nor of the gehenne or hell fire . That same solution sufficeth for all the other places by thée alledged . For that is very common in the Scripture , to take hell in that signification , as it appeareth by those places the which thou bast put foorth . For how many times saith the Prophet in those same places ? The sighings of the dead haue enuironed me . I haue called vpon thée in my trouble . I haue Psal , 2● . 30 , 49 cryed vnto thée and thou hast healed mée . Thou hast deliuered mee from those that goe down into the pit . He meaneth none other thing by those woords , but that he setteth foorth and declareth that hell from which he was deliuered . Wherefore I am greatly ashamed , both of Eccius and of Cochleus , for that they were not ashamed , to alledge such places for to mainteine their Purgatory .

Eusebius .

Whatsoeuer thou sayest , it seemeth neuerthelesse The place of the 1. Cor. 15 To b● baptised for the dead that already in the time of Saint Paul , the Christians were of an opinion , that the liuinge might giue some ayde vnto the deade , by that that hée writeth of those which did baptise themselues for the dead . Nowe that could not profite , neither those which were in Paradise , nor those which were in hell . It must be then that it profiteth those of Purgatory .

Theophilus .

Thou oughtest alreadye to haue vnderstanded by that which hath bene sayde of that place , that it can serue nothing at all for Purgatory . I doe not denye vnto thée , but that in the time of the Apostles , there were suffrages and prayers for the dead . But that was among the Panims and Idolaters , as it hath bene already very amply entreated off amongest vs . And doubte not , but that there remayneth some roote of such superstition in some of those which are called Christians . But if it were so as thou doest vnderstande it , it followeth not therefore that Sainct Paul alloweth that manner of dooing : As the auncient Doctors themselues dooe witnesse it , namely Sainct Ambrose . For I may well take Ambro. in 1. Cor. 15. an argument against a Papist ( which will denye vnto mée the resurrection , or immortalitie of the soules ) with their manner of dooings towardes the dead , for to beate him with his owne swoorde , and yet I will not allow neuerthelesse their superstition . But it is not néedfull to stay any more vpon that place , sith that I haue already declared vnto thée , howe the auncientes haue vnderstanded it , and howe it is also expounded by others . For whatsoeuer exposition that thou maist giue vnto it , it cannot serue for thy purpose . And there was neuer any of the auncientes , which hath dreamed , that the same was done bicause of Purgatorye . For Epiphanius witnesseth , Epipha . li. 1 Tom. 2. heres. 18. that those which baptised themselues for the dead , which were dead before that they had receiued Baptisme , did it to that ende that when they shoulde rise againe in the resurrection , they shoulde not bée punished for that they haue not bene baptised in this worlde . He sayth that such was their opinion . Wherefore it is easily to knowe , that they did not thinke of Purgatory .

Hée toucheth yet an other exposition of that place , the which hée alloweth . But yet it maketh lesse for thée . To conclude , that place serueth as much for your broylers of soules for to proue your Purgatory , as for the Marcionistes heretickes , who as witnesseth Theophilactus , doe drawe them to their purpose , for to proue their Theophilact . 〈◊〉 , Cor. 15 baptisme , which they receiue for the dead . For when any dyed among them without baptisme , they had a custome , that one that was aliue should enter within the béere of the dead , or where the dead was layde . Afterwards they did come vnto the béere and demaunded of the dead , if he will be baptised ? Then the liue man , which was there hid , in a low place vnder the béere , aunswered that he would . Wherefore they dyd Baptise him in stéede of the dead .

Hillarius .

They had yet more appearance , than our Bishops & Priests which baptised the bels .

Eusebius .

If those two arguments doe séeme vnto thée weake and feeble , I will alldge vnto thée a stronger . When S. Paul did write vnto The place of the Phil , 2 , b. 9 the Philippians , that vnto Iesus Christ is giuen a name aboue all names , that in the name of Iesus , should euery knée boow , both of things in heauen & things in earth , & things vnder the earth . What vnderstandeth he by those which vnder the earth do boow their knées vnto Iesus Christ ? That cannot be vnderstanded of the diuels . For they haue not accustomed to honour God , nor the damned also . For their office is rather to blaspheme him . It must needes be then that they be in Purgatory which do boow the knée vnto Iesus Christ , which do honour him , or otherwise the words of S. Paul should not be true .

Theophilus .

If by boowing the To bowe the knee . knée , S. Paul did vnderstande the true diuine seruice , the true inuocation , and the true honour which the elect doo owe vnto God , ther should be some reason & appearance in the argument . But S. Paul by that manner of speaking , The seignyary of Iesus Christ . meaneth none other thing by boowing the knée , but that to Iesus Christ is giuen such domination , that it is necessary that euery creature bée subiect vnto him , and obeye him , and acknowledge him to bee Iudge and Lorde : the which the good and the elect dowillingly and with a good heart : the wicked and reprebate , in spite of their téeth . But they are neuerthelesse campelled . For they cannot resist the vertue and power of Iesus Christ , which maketh his enimies his footstoole . But the Apostle vseth such Psal. 110. ● . 1 manner of speaking , for to followe the stile of the Prophetes , and to declere vnto vs that which the Lord hath sayde by I say : I doe liue sayth the Lord : Euery knee shal Psa. 45. d. 23. boowe vnto mee . The which the Apostle expoundeth by other woords , saying : wee shall be all brought before the iudgement seate of Christ . Afterwardes hee confirmeth ●om. 14 b. 10 that proposition by the very wordes of the Prophet , declaring that all that commeth to one effect . For bicause that the good and euill are compelled to render obedience vnto their Lordes , and that they doe declare commonly their subiection and humilitie in boowing the knée and dooing reuerence before their Lorde , the Scripture vseth such manner of speakinge for to signifie the obedience , reuerence and subiection , that euery creature must she we towardes God . Although that the same may bée done diuerse wayes either by bowing the knées , and without bewing the knées . For the Angells and the soules can no better boowe their knees then the Diuels : sith that all of them haue no knées : which cannot be but to bodies : if we doe not vnderstande any otherwise those figures of speaking . And therefore there is no inconuenience , to vnderstande by those which do boow the knees vnder the earth , the Diuels themselues with all the reprobate , which shall all appeare before the iudgement seate of Christ , and shall be compelled to acknowledge him to be their Iudge , in great Who do bow the knees vnder the ●rch . horrour and feare , as they haue already shewed by experience , in the time that Iesus Christ was yet in his mortall body & passible , before that he was risen againe . For the wicked spirites were constrayned to obey him , and to confesse him to be Christ and to pray vnto him : Although that it was against their wills , saying : O Iesu thou sonne of God , what haue wee to do with thee ? Art thou come hether 〈◊〉 d. 10. Mar. 1● 24 to torment vs before the time be come ? We know that thou art the holy eue of God : And they besought him , saying : If thou cast vs out , suffer vs to goe our way into The prayer of the 〈◊〉 the herd of swine . In the very same manner as they are compelled to entreate & beseech Iesus Christ , & to confesse him , so shall they be compelled to boow the knee vnto him . And if they did that vnto him whilest that he was yet mortal & passible , what shal they do now , sith that he sitteth immortal & glorious at the right hand of God his father ? And if they doe beséech or pray to Iesus Christ , may they not as well boow the knee vnto him ? In the sence the auncients haue vnderstanded , & Theophilactus expoundeth it expresly of the diuels , Theophi . in Epist. phi● . 2. which shal be constrained to giue glory & honour vnto Iesus Christ .

Eusebius .

If thou hast escaped that place , I beleeue , that thou shalt not escape so easily of the like , written in the Apocalipse , where it is sayd : And all the creatures which are in heauen and on the earth , & vnder the earth , & in the The place of the Apoc. 5. 〈◊〉 13 sea , and al that are in them heard I , saying : blessing , he nor , glory & power be vnto him that sitteth vpon the seate , and The prayse geuen to God of all creatures . vnto the lambe for euermore . Thou canst not héere say but that it is spoken of the true praise & of the true honor which is due vnto God , the which the diuels , nor the reprobate cannot giue vnto him . And yet neuertheles it is here said , that there be creatures vnder the earth , which do giue vnto him that praise , which can be none other than the soules of purgatory ,

Theophilus .

You do lacke but the leg of a Fly for to build your arguments . Doest thou not see that the holy Ghost vseth an enumeration , by the which he witnesseth , that all creatures in al places do praise their creator , & Iesus Christ the true lambe , by whom all is restored ? But being not contented to vse an vniuersal proposition , he also woult by enumeration of creatures in perticuler , conclude that in general , bicause that that manner of speaking doth better expresse the thing , & doth amplifie better the glory of God , declaring that there is not an element , nor any place where God is not praised and magnified , from the highest part of heauen vnto the bottom of the earth & from euery part of the world . For as he writeth , that the heauens declare the glory of God , & the firmament sheweth foorth his handy works . Also there is not a creature whatsoeuer it bee , neither Psal. 19. a. 〈◊〉 in Heauen nor in the ayre , nor in the water , nor in the earth , nor vnder the earth , not so much as an Ant or Pismer , neither a worme , plant , trée , nor stone , which preacheth not , singeth , prayseth , & magnifieth according to his nature , in his manner .

Eusebius .

How can the mute and dumbe creatures speake , being without reason and insensible , which haue no sence , reason , vnderstandinge nor speach ? It must néedes be that we doe vnderstand that of men .

Theophilus .

How can the Angells & the blessed soules , speake and praise God , which haue no mouth as we haue ? And how can the Firmament , the Sunne , the Moone , and The speaking of the muet creatures & those that haue no bodyes . the starres declare and shew foorth the glory of God , and declare his vertue and power ? for they haue no soule , nor mouth as men haue . Yet they haue neuerthelesse their mouth agréeing to their nature , for to render vnto God the honour which apperteyneth vnto him . Euen so ought we to vnderstand of al other creatures , which are all the liuely Images of God , which declare vnto vs those meruailes , and doe speake better hauing no mouth , then the Images which haue mouthes and speake not , and which crye not thorow their throate . And therefore how many creatures Psal. 1●5 . b. 5 may there be vnder the earth which do praise God in that manner ? And notwithstanding that the dampned and reprobate doe not praise him in that sort as he is praised of the elect , yet they are neuerthelesse constrained to praise & glorif●e him against their wills , and they cannot doe nor speake any thing which serueth not vnto his honour and glory .

Eusebius .

Sith that by thy expositions thou hast already pulled out of my handes all the argumentes that I haue against thee , I will display at once that which remaineth behinde . What wilt thou say vpon that other place taken from the same booke ? in which is spoken of the holy Apo● 21. g , 27 citie of the celestial Hierusalem , after this manner : ther shal enter into it no vncleane thing . To which agreeth that which is written in Esay . This shal be called the holy way , Esa. 35. d. 8. no vncleane person shall goe thorow it .

Theophilus .

What wilt thou that I should aunswere thée vppon the same . There is none that will deny , but that he must be purged from all his sinnes , before he can come vnto the eternall lyfe . For flesh and bloud cannot 1. Cor. 15. ss . 5● inherite the kingdome of God . But the purgation is not done by the fire of Purgatory , but by the bloude of Iesus Christ , by the which we are washed & purified , when thorow Apo. 1 , b. 5 Act. 15. b. 9 Iohn . 15 a. 3 the word of god & thorow faith our hearts are sprinkled . Therefore sayd Iesus Christ vnto his disciples : you are cleane bicause of the words which you haue heard . We are purged , when we obteine remission of our sinnes , and that the Lorde forgetteth them , not imputing them vnto vs and remembring them , according to that which is written . Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiuen Psa. 32. a. 2 & whose sins are couered . Blessed is the man vnto whom the Lord imputeth no sinne .

Thomas .

I doe greatly feare Eusebius , sith that thou art already come vnto the Apocalips but that thou wilt be by and by at the ende of thy knowledge . For that is the ende of the new Testament , and of all the canonicall Scripture .

Hillarius .

I beléeue that he hath conducted and lead vs euen vnto the Apocalips for to bury his Purgatory to the ende we may helpe him to sing his Requiescant in pace . For I beleeue that he will dye héere , and that hée shall Requiescant in pace of purgatory . passe no further . Your Doctors doe write that after the Iudgement , Purgatory and hell shal be all one . But I beléeue that that Purgatory which thou wouldest haue proued in the Apocalips , to be none other thing then those pondes of fire and brimstone , in which the beast which The wells and ponds of fire & brimstone . Apoc. 19. d. ●0 hath engendered Purgatory , is cast with hir false Prophets into the eternall bottomlesse pitte .

Theophilus .

What sayst thou Eusebius to the same ? Hast thou no more refuge ? Or whether thy arriere woorde bee altogether disconfited ?

Eusebius .

I haue no more wherewith to reuenge me , The place of the. 〈◊〉 Pet. 3. d , 19 except I shew foorth that place of Saint Peter , which witnesseth that the spirite of Iesus Christ preached vnto the spirites which were in prisen : By the which prison I cannot vnderstand but Purgatory or the Lymbe . ●r●●ching to 〈◊〉 . At the leastwise it must bee that thou doest allowe the one or the other .

Theophilus .

That obiection commeth well to purpose , for to aunswere also to the question of Thomas , and to those which would haue a preaching of the Gospell in the other world :

Thomas .

I am very gladde that thou hast not forgotten it , and that the occasion serueth so well .

Theophilus .

But before I will enter into it , I will agayne admonish thee , that I wil not define nor determine any thing of the estate of the dead , besides that which the holy Scripture hath expressely reuealed vnto me . Wherefore I do conclude that although it should be so that those estéeme it to be true , yet neuertheles I shall not be of that opinion , that any person should trust vnto it and that hée should leaue off to doe his endeauour in this worlde , to seeke Iesus Christ : sith that the Scripture doth not promise vnto vs cleerely any ether remedie , nor any other preaching and reuelation for our saluation after this lyfe . Therfore I would gladly allow , in this matter that which Gregory writeth touching Purgatory . For notwithstanding that he did beleeue that in the same one might be purged Aduertisement . from his sinnes , yet neuerthelesse he sayth , that it is most sure to gouerne himselfe so in this worlde , that one néedeth not of that remedie in the other , but to haue there his recourse and hope .

Thomas .

I am of thy opinion . But expound vnto vs at the least the places , that one may alleadge them , to that purpose for to haue the intellygence thereoff . 1. Pet 3 , d 18

Theophilus .

That which hath most shew is that which Eusebius hath touched , in which is written that Christ hath once suffered for the sinnes , the iust for the vniust for to bring vs to God and was killed , as perteining to the flesh : But was quickened in the spirite . In which spirit he also went and preached vnto the spirites that were in prison , which were in time passed disobedient , when the long suffering abode exceeding patiently in the dayes of No● &c , The other is by and by after , where he saith , that the wicked 1. Pet. 4 , b. 〈◊〉 . shall giue accompt vnto him that is ready to Iudge quicke and dead . For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead , that they should be iudged lyke other men , in the flesh , but should lyue before god in the spirite . Behold two places , after which many learned men haue much trauayled , and haue expounded them many wayes . Yet neuerthelesse it hath bene most commonly taken for the Lymbe after that it was forged and inuented , bicause that he speaketh of the spirits which were in prison or in the lower partes , to whome Iesus Christ hath preached . Those there haue vnderstanded by those spirits , the soules of the auncient Fathers . By the prison , the Helles and the Lymbes , in which they were deteined . The others , which are so affectioned after the Purgatory , that there is not a place in all the Scripture , which they endeauour not to wrest & draw , either wrongfully or ouerthwartly , and haue taken that prison for Purgatory , & the spirits , for the soules that are there . But these héere haue lesse shew , and doe put themselues more out of reason then the others . Chiefely , sith that there is none of the Auncients , that I know , not of those which haue beleeued the Purgatory , that haue vnderstanded it after that manner , and which haue alleadged it to that purpose . Wherefore it is not needeful to aunswere them any further . But for to come to the exposition of those places , I will first aduertise you , that there are diuers interpretacions , the which I will recy●● some , to the ende that thou shouldest not thinke that I doe condempne all the others which haue expounded it : Or that I am more arrogant then all men , and that I doe attribute more to my sence and iudgdement , then to any other .

If I define rashlye of a thinge , the which all the Expositours haue founde it so obscure and harde , that many among them haue bene constrayned to confesse that they cannot vnderstande it . Then I will touch the diuers expositions , which are more sufferable . Afterwardes I will signifie vnto you that which I thinke to be most proper . There are some which doe not vnderstand that Saint The first exposition . Peter speaketh héere but of the lyuing vnto whom Iesus Christ hath preached the gospell , aswell in his owne proper person , as by his Prophets and Apostles , which haue all spoken by his spirite . Wherefore one may well say , that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto them , sith that it was not they that did speake , but Iesus Christ who by his holy spirite did speake in them . Those heere do take the words of Saint Peter by a Metaphore and by an Allegorie , and doe vnderstande by the spirits which were in prison , the dead , vnto whom it is sayd in the chapter following that the Gospell was preached , saying that saint Peter by that seconde place expoundeth the first . Now by these dead , vnto whom hath bene preached , they vnderstand not the dead : but doe take that word , by a Metaphore , vnderstanding The liuing called dead . by the dead , the sinners which are dead thor●w sinne : the which he hath called before the spirits which were in prison , bicause that the soule which is dead thorow sinne , is holden by the same , as a prisoner which is in bondes and fetters , in the stockes and in prison . Those which doe expounde it after that manner , notwithstanding that they doe accorde as touching the interpretation of the words , yet neuerthelesse they doe a lyt●le differ , touching that spirite , by the which Iesus Christ went and preached vnto the spirits which were in prison . For some doe expound What is the spirit which hath preached to the dead . it for the manifestation of Iesus Christ which hath bene before his comming . Others , for that which hath followed his comming . These heere doe vnderstand by the spirite the holy Ghost which Iesus Christ sent , A & . 2. 〈◊〉 4 and gaue vnto his ●pos●les , by the which he hath preached the Gospel to the Iewes and ●entiles , which before were rebellious and disobedient vnto the worde of God . ●phe 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , 2 Wherefore hee calleth them rebellyng and disobedient spirits , deteined in the captiuitie of errour and of sinne . For although that Iesus Christ ascended into heauen , and hath taken his body from vs , yet neuerthelesse he is alwaies Mat , 18 ●ohn , 20 1 , Cor. 12. among vs , by the vertue of his spirite , by the which he speaketh in his Apostles , Ministers , and Euangelycall Pastors , and preacheth and admonisheth alwayes the sinners , and toucheth their heart , and conducteth and leadeth their spirits by his , for to make them enter into his Church , & for to saue the elect in the same , as those which were saued in the Arke of Noe. There is nothing in this ●enes . 7. 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 1 , pet. 2. 〈◊〉 . 5. exposition contrary to the Analogie of the faith , and the sence of the Scriptures . But yet neuerthelesse it séemeth to some to be a lyttle allegorised and vyolated and to stray a lyttle too far front the Apostolycal simplycitie . Although that it be tollerable and Christian lyke . Others doe vnderstande by the spirite of Christ , his eternall vertue , by the which he hath bene long time agone the Sauiour and Iudge of the worlde , as he is at this present , the Sauiour by the water , as he doth now by the baptisme . And therefore they doe vnderstand that he is gone by his spirit , by his diuine vertue , & by his word , thorow out the world , as he passed thorow out Aegipt , declaring his power among the Aegyptians & sauing the Israelites . Asmuch hath hée Exo. 12. & 13 Genes. done in the time of the floude : and doth yet at this day . For he declareth his Iudgement vnto the wicked , & hath drowned them in the floude , euen as now he declareth it vnto all , to the ende that his seruaunts may be saued in the Arke of the Churche , and the others drowned by the Iudgement of God . Therefore is Noe called the herauld The herold of righteousnes . of righteousnesse for to declare , that by the same , the spirite of Iesus Christ declareth vnto men the righteousnes and Iudgement of God , as a king declareth the warre by an herauld of armes , vnto those which doe rebell agaynst him , and refuse peace . And the word which Saint Peter 2. Pet. 2. 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , vsed when he sayd , that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirits , doth not signifie onely to preach , but also to publish a commaundement and an ordinaunce as an Herauld . And that worde herauld , the which Saint Peter vsed speaking of Noe , is taken of the very same , of which he vseth , saying that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirites . And as to that that Saint Peter calleth them spirits , they The spi●●ts p●●so●e●s , thinke that he did it hauing regarde to their thoughtes and affections , beeing possessed with euill spirits . And doe buylde their interpretation vppon that which is written : God did sée that all the thoughts of mans heart was giuen Genes. 6. a , 5 vnto euill . And vppon that which Saint Paul ( speaking of the power which is giuen vnto him by the ministring of 2 , Cor. 〈◊〉 b. 5 the Gospell ) sayth that it is for to beat downe euery high thing , which exalteth it selfe agaynst God , and for to bring into captiuitie the thoughts and spirites of men to the obedtence of Christ , delyuering them from the subiection of the wicked spirites which doe holde capti●e the spirites , and vnderstanding of the reprobate . They doe vnderstand then by the spirites which were in prison , those which were in the spirituall prison , or whose spirits were deteyned in captiuitie and prison , by the wicked spirits . They haue yet regard vnto that that the scripture calleth those Genes. 6. a. 2 which perished by the floude , the sonnes of God , which did see the daughters of men : and to that which is there written , that the Lord did strike and destroy euery soule and taketh from the middes of them euery spirite , and that he hath sayd in threatning them , that he will take from them his spirite . For that cause they thinke that Saint Peter was induced to call such men spirits , bicause that whilest that their spirits did sleepe and were detemed by the wicked spirits , they were ouercome and drowned by the waters of the sloude , and the spirit was taken from them , as to him which was strangled and c●oked in the water . They also haue regarde to that , that that worde which Saint Peter hath vsed , which we doe interprete prison , doth also signifie , the watche and warde which is kept in the night : Insomuch that they thinke that Saynt Peter had regard vnto the parable of Iesus Christ , which admonisheth euery one to watch , as the faithfull seruant looking for his master , who knoweth not what houre hée will come , whether it be in the seconde , thirde , or fourth The sence and meaning of the wordes of Saint Peter . watch of the night : and for a full resolution , they will fall vppon this sence : Although that Iesus Christ be dead as touching his flesh , body and humanitie , yet neuerthelesse he is quickened by the spirite , that is to say , by his eternall vertue and diuine power , by the which hee is not onely risen from death , but also hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh , and hath tourned death into lyfe , quickening by the same all those which were dead thorow sinne , ●ohn , 6 And to the ende that none should dispise Iesus Christ , bicause that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect person , he declared that he is so dead , that there is no lyfe but in his death : and that none can lyue but by him : and that he is not onely to day , but euerlasting , and that by the same spirite and diuine and eternall vertue he Heb. 13. b. 〈◊〉 is already an other time come vnto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells , the proude and peruerse spirits , oppressed with wicked spirites , which were not vnder their kéeping , but did sléepe , not thinking on the iudgement of god , vntil such time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them , as he doth yet at this present , by Genes , 6 , & 7 that same spyrite , by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world , and saueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe.

Hillarius .

It seemeth that that exposition is also a little vyolated & far fetched , neuerthelesse it commeth not euill to purpose , but séemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter .

Theophilus .

Bicause that the place is obscure & hard , I dare not to define & pronounce of it rashly . But I would gladly put forth these expositions , to that ende you may iudge of them , & for to awake the spirits , for to finde out some better thing . Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the simplest , that is to say , that S. Peter willing to shew foorth the efficacie & vertu of Iesus Christ & of his An other exposition death and passion , witnesseth that it was so great , that the lyuing haue not onely felt & perceiued it but the dead also , vnto whom it is come . But in what manner or after vnto the dead what sort ? How is it communicated vnto vs , and all his giftes and graces but by his spirite and diuine vertue ? Euen as then by his spirite he hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh , which is vnto vs spirite and lyfe , and hath Iohn , 6 , 〈◊〉 . ●3 communicated vnto vs his vertue , so hath he manifested himselfe by the same spirite vnto the deade , both during their lyse and after their death . For it is sayde of Abraham , that he did sée the day of the Lord , and reioyced . Iohn , 8. 〈◊〉 . 56. If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe , felt the efficacie and vertue of Iesus Christ , long time before that he didde offer his eternall sacrifice , wée cannot doubt , but that he and all the others , which were in his bosome , haue felte it more fully , when he did manifest himselfe more fully .

By this we may well vnderstand , whereto this place can serue to proue Purgatory . For if the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ be of such efficacie , that it goeth vnto the dead , what néede haue we then of Masses and Suffrages of the Priests for to comfort the dead , and to apply vnto them the merits of Iesus Christ ? sith The predication to the dead . that none can do it but he himself , by the vertue of his spirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead . Now hée calleth that manifestacion predication : not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth , towards the dead , such as is among the lyuing , but bicause that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall ministring , Iesus Christ is manifested vnto vs and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion .

Also the spirits of the dead haue theirs , but in their maner , and such as apperteineth vnto them : euen as we doe vnderstande that God gaue himselfe to his Angells to be knowen , and to make them tast of his bountie and goodnesse , but by an other meane then vnto vs , bicause that their condition was contrary . We must not then dreame The descending of Iesus Christ into hell . out a Lymbe and a materiall prison and a locale descending of the spirite of Iesus Christ into hell : and a preaching such as wée haue . But wée must vnderstande all those things spiritually . For as it is not néedfull that Iesus Christ should descend locally from heauen , for to make vs feele his vertue , so it is not necessary to descend into hell . For the vertue of his spirite is such , that it filleth heauen and earth , and is spread abrode euery where .

Hillarius ,

As I thinke , our dreaming Theologians had very much leasure , when they setled themselues to dispute , whether the soule of Iesus Christ did suffer in the hell . Amongest the which , some of them are founde to bée of opinion , that he did .

Theophilus .

If they had wel vnderstanded that which Iesus Christ sayd vnto the théefe : This day shalt thou Lue , 13. ff. ●3 be with me in Paradise , and how Iesus Christ descended into hell , when his soule was sorrowfull , and in anguish , euen vnto the death , and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God , and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curse , and the dampnation due vnto our sinnes , insomuch that he was stroken & beaten of God , & hath suffered death , after which he descended into the sepulchre or graue , they should not haue néeded againe to make the soule of Iesus Christ to descend from Paradise , in which it was , for to goe into hell . For it is sufficiently giuen vnto the spirites of his elect to vnderstand , which haue receiued consolation , and vnto those of the reprobate , declaringe vnto them from what goodnesse they were depriued without descending or assending .

Eusebius .

To what purpose then doth he speake of the prison ? and what other thing can hée vnderstand but the Lymbe ? of which it is also spoken in Zachery , saying : I haue let thy prisoners out of the pit where is no water . The Li●●e . Za●h , 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉

Theophilus .

By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vs to vnderstand none other thing , but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon , he will deliuer his people that are captiue , kept in the bottom of all miseries . By the prisoners , he vnderstandeh his people that bée in The prisoners . The wells . capti●itie , by the euils he vnderstandeth a captinitie , a goulse and bottome of all miserye , from which it is not possible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himselfe . Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth : yea yet without water , in which one cannot swimme : to the ende they may the better knowe their miserie , and the grace and mercy of God towardes them . When S. Peter did speake of the prison of the spirits , The prison he did it for to amplyfie the better the grace of the Gospell , comparing those which wer vnder the seruitude & bondage of the law , & vnder those shadows & figures vnto those which shall be in a prison in respect of those which haue receiued the light of the gospell . But we must not therefore dreame , that the bosome of Abraham was a prison , or a Castle , as we haue alredy declared in the other disputacion . But we must be aduised & know that those things are spoken by a comparison , as we haue already declared the examples .

Thomas .

It séemeth that Saint Peter speaketh not , but of the reprobate . For after that hée hath spoken of those spirits which wer in prison , he addeth which late or sometune were rebells .

Theophilus .

〈◊〉 . Cor. He speaketh generally of all . For euen as the Gospell is a sweete sauour of lyfe , to lyfe vnto those which are saued , and a sauour of death , to death vnto those that perish , so the death of Iesus Christ bringeth a great reioycing , both to the Angells and to all the blessed spirits , and more greater confusion and grieuous dampnation vnto the wicked and reprobate . But after that he spake generally of the spirits he pursued not all the two parts , but stayed himselfe onely to the disobedient and rebells , bicause that he is fallen into that matter speaking of afflictions . Wherefore for to comfort the faythfull , he Gene● . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 s●ayed to declare vnto them the vertue which Iesus Christ hath , for to saue his , as he saued Noe and his family in the Arke : and for to punish the wicked and persecutors , as he hath drowned the Gyants by the floud . For that cause he stayed to declare the Iudgement of god , as in the chapter following , saying : that Iesus Christ shall Iudge the 1. P●● . 〈◊〉 . b. 〈◊〉 . quicke and the dead . For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead , that they should bée iudged lyke other men in the flesh , but should lyue before God in the spirite .

Thomas .

By that which thou sayest , thou doest declare vnto vs that that place , concludeth not that ther is any other Limbe nor Purgatory , then such which thou hast shewed vnto vs from the beginning . But what sayest thou touching the preaching of the which we haue spoken which ought to be done vnto the spirits after this lyfe .

Theophilus ,

First of all as touching those which are Those which haue not beleued in this world . departed out of this world , without hauing one grayne of that seede of the feare of God , but haue altogether resisted his spirite , and the naturall lyght and knowledge that hée hath giuen vnto them , or at the preaching of his gospell we cannot leaue vnto them any preaching , nor any other remedy after their death , for their saluation : except wée wil fall into the error of the Origenists and Anabaptists . Iohn . 〈◊〉 c , 1● For it is written : He which beléeueth not in the Sonne of God is already condempned . But if it be a question of the elect , which haue had alredy in this world some grain of the seede of God , which haue walked in his feare , although that they haue bene yet wrapped in many errors . and darkenesse , there is an other consideration . Not that I doe vnderstand that the gospell is preached vnto them after they are departed out of this lyfe , otherwise , saying that they shall haue more ful knowledge of that , that they haue onely héere known , as amongst the midst of darkenesse . For if they be the sonnes of God , the seede of god 1. Iohn . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 9 Cornelius Act. 10 〈◊〉〈◊〉 . which is in them shall saue them : As wee may iudge by the example of Cornelius the Centurion .

Before that he had heard the preaching of Saint Peter , he had not perfect knowledge of Iesus Christ . Hée was yet a Panim : but he was not therefore altogether without the seede of the feare of GOD , nor without some beginning of fayth & obscure knowledge of IESVS CHRIST : Or otherwise his prayers and almes deedes shoulde not haue bene approued of God , whome Heb. 11 , b , 6. one cannot please without fayth . If he had then dyed before that S. Peter was come vnto him , I do not thinke therefore , that he had ben altogether reiected and forsaken of God : and that that knowledge sufficed him not to saluation : or that he had not giuen himselfe more fully to be knowne of him either by some diuine inspiration : or by some other meanes , such as it pleaseth him : yea , in the Article of the death , or at his last gaspe , rather then to suffer him to perish . As we may presume as wel of the Iewes , as of the Panims , who before the comming and manifestation of Iesus Christ in the flesh , had the lawe of God written in their heartes : notwithstanding that they haue Rom 2. 〈◊〉 . 1● . not had altogether so full knowledge of Iesus Christ , as we haue at this present . For although that the knowledge What knowledge of God is necessary to saluation . of Iesus Christ be vnto all men necessary to saluation , it followeth not therefore , that none can be saued , if it be not full and perfect in him . For who euer had in this world so full knowledge of him , and a faith so perfect , that he had nothing to say ? There was neuer such a one found in this world . It sufficeth then that that knowledge & faith , hath taken roote in vs , & that we do trauaile as much as we can possible to augment and increase it . And afterwards when we shall doe our endeuour , as much as we can , the Lord which hath begun his worke in vs will bring it to passe , and will supply and recompense thorow his grace the default of the faith and knowledge which we haue receiued of him ( euen as he doth of our workes , which are all imperfect , bicause of the imperfection of our faith ) so that ther be not dispising , and to great negligence in vs , which cannot be but to the reprobate . Euen then as GOD , by his great mercye supporteth the imperfection of our fayth , and ceaseth nor leaueth off to receiue vs for his children , so that the seede and the roote of the same be quickened in vs , so I cannot vpholde and mainteine by anye witnesse of the holy Scripture , that any should haue iust occasion to hope for saluation after this lyfe , which from the same shall bée departed without any knowledge of God & of Iesus Christ his sonne . Wherefore I doe holde me to that which the Scripture hath reuealed vnto me , & do leaue the rest with the secrete iudgements of God , which are hid from vs and couered . But yet neuerthelesse I think that it is alwayes most sure , to trauaile very much after the knowledge of the truth , whilest that wée be in this worlde , that wee may haue so much as is néedfull for our saluation : and that our despising be not any cause vnto vs of dampnation . And if wée doe our endeuour , wee are very sure that the Lorde will not faile vs , and that he will not hide himselfe or withdrawe himselfe from vs , if wée doe seeke him and desire to approch and come vnto him . For it is impossible , that hee wil hide himselfe from those whom he hath chosen , & whom he hath purposed to glorifie , and to make them blessed by his knowledge . And notwithstanding that wée haue not all of vs , so great and high knowledge of him , nor so many of his gi●tes and graces as his Prophetes and Apostles , yet neuerthelesse hee will giue vs as much as shall be necessary and expedient for vs : wherewith wée ought to content our selues . Behold that that I had to say vpon that pointe , and whereto I will staye my selfe , without seking any further .

Thomas .

And I with thée : And praised be God for that I did finde your company , in which I haue heard so many good doctrines , and debating of so many good points of religion , of which I was before in great doubt , & had my conscience much troubled . But nowe , the grace of God hath resolued mée , and hath sette my conscience at rest . And thou Eusebius , hast thou chaunged thy opinion ?

Eusebius .

I doe yéelde my selfe : and doe confesse that I can no longer withstande the truth : and doe render thanckes vnto GOD which hath deliuered mée from those great darkenesse , errours and abuses , in whiche I was fallen into and drowned . For I was in greate daunger to be altogether lost , if God thorowe his grace had not retyred and pulled me backe . And so much as I did thinke that I was in the right way , so much was the daunger the greater .

Thomas .

I am very glad to heare such words of thée . For he that would haue sworne vnto me at the beginning when I did see thée so contrary vnto Theophilus & vnto Hillarius , that thou shouldest haue come vnto this resolution , I would neuer haue beleeued it .

Eusebius .

No more would I. But that which is impossible to men , is possible to God , who hath the hearts of Mat. 1● . d , ●6 Pro. ●1 . a , 1. his in his hand , and chaungeth them as it pleaseth him . And therefore we ought neuer to vispaire of the conuersion or of the saluation of any man , whilest that we do sée some little sparke of the feare of God to shine in them , vntill such time as we doe ther openly sée resistaunce against the knowen truth and the spirite of God .

Hillarius .

I haue not lost altogether the hope . For I was well assured , that thou wouldest not resist the truth thorow malice , but onely thorow ignoraunce . And God will not leaue such men willingly alwayes in errour , but will drawe them out of it in the time that he hath ordeined : As we haue the example of Saul the great persecutor , whome he hath made an Apostle and Euangelist of Saul● being a persecutor , made an apostle Act 9. 〈◊〉 . 1. the Doctrine which hée blasphemed , and hath tourned a madde Wolfe , into the most excellentest Pastour that euer was in his Church . But sith that God hath shewed vnto vs that grace and fauour , that we be all falled into a good concord , and vnitie , and that he hath conuerted and turned our warre , into so greate a peace , wée ought as well to remember to prepare the Funeralls for the The burning of Purgatory . Lymbe and Purgatorye , sith that they are deade and readye to bée buryed . But let vs bée aduised who shall furnishe the funerall pompe , and the Suffrages and Obsequies , and who shall doe the office .

Then must ringe the Belles Thomas , and Eusebius shall cary the Crosse : and Theophilus the holye Water stoppe : and I will carye the sprinckle and will doe the office , and the Priestes and Moonkes shall mourne .

Thomas .

I néede not to ringe the bells , for his death will be sufficiently published abroade without that : And the Priestes will soone know of it without Bells , when they shall sée their Kitchin to be so colde , and that the fire shall bée altogether extinct and put out . You saye in speakinge of the lamentations whiche the Priestes dooe make after the dead , that they doe make pitious moane about them , as to the outwarde appearaunce by wrything their mouthes , but doe laughe inwardlye in their heartes . But I doe not doubt , that in this forrowe and lamentation héere , that they will not doe it faynedly , but that they will wéepe earnestly . For they did neuer bury parentes nor friendes , whose death was so deere vnto them , and which dyd bring vnto them more greater sorrow nor domage .

Hillarius .

I do greatly feare least it happen vnto them as to the labourer of whome Esope speaketh off . He rehearseth a fable of a woeman who had newly buryed hir The fable of the fayned mourning of a laborer . husbande , who did goe euery daye to his graue to wéepe and lament . Nowe there was a labourer which ploughed in a fielde which was not farre from the Churchyarde . Wherefore hée seeing that woeman , and was in loue with hir , insomuch that hée lefte his Oxen , and went also vnto the graue , and beeing there sette downe , dyd also wéepe with the woeman . When the woeman asked him wherefore hée so lamented , hée aunswered hir : bicause saith hée , that I haue buryed a faire and an honest woman , for whome I am much sorrowfull and sad . But after that I haue well wept and lamented , I am eased of my sorrow . And the woman sayd vnto him : Euen so is it chaunced to me of my husband . Wherevpon the labourer aunswered vnto hir . For as much then as both of vs are fallen into one misfortune , wherefore maye we not marye together ? For I will loue thée , as I loued my first wife , and thou shalt leue mée in like manner as thou diddest loue thy first husbande . By those woordes ●ee he did put that into the woemans head , in so much that they accorded together . But whilest that hee vsed that deceite and plaide the Foxe with the poore woman , ther came a théefe more wily than he , which stole away his Oxen and caryed them away . When hée was retourned and that he founde not his Oxen , hée did begin to wéepe and lament , and to strike his brest very bitterly . The woeman also came : and when shée had founde him weeping and lamenting , shée sayd vnto him Doest thou wéepe yet . And hée aunswered vnto hir : nowe I wéepe earnestly . Before his teares were fained and did but wéep● outwardly , and laughed in his heart as our Priestes do at the Funeralls and Obsequies of the dead . But I am altogether certeine , that there shall bée no iestinge nor Crocodiles teares , in the burying of their Purgatorye . For as soone as he shall be dead , the Masse shall not liue longe after . And so they shall haue two bodyes whiche will bringe vnto them great sorrowe and heauinesse . But I beléeue that they will not bestowe so much money about them , for to make their good déedes , as they haue gotten and heaped together by their meanes . But let vs suffer them to wéepe their fill , as well as they haue made others wéepe , & let vs singe when they wéepe . Neuerthelesse I will yet doe for them this seruice , to make for them a lamentation and complaint , to moue them the better to pittie and compassion vpon that poore dead body . For me thinckes that I doe heare them already lament in this wise .

Now let vs lament we Moonkes and we Nunnes . Priests , bawdes and whoores , with our bastard sonnes . For now the hot Furnaces quenched are that haue made vs fat with their deintie fare . Now we may compt our selues in euill case for the good time we had hath lost his place . And dead is he that did heape vp in chest , Money wherewith we made our Gaudemus . Alas he is now at peace and at rest , Wherefore let vs sing an other Oremus .

Let vs suffer them to sing that in stéede of Vigiles and of Libera me , and of their Fidelium , and I will make his Epitaph , which shall serue him for his latter Oremus .

O gentle sir Iohn , who of Purgatory Hast gotten so much of siluer and golde : Make speedely to be known to all of the Popry , To sing Requiem aeternam for his sweete soule . By him an Epicures lyfe thou didst lead , But now alas he is dead an hath no place : And with him thy earthly kingdome is dead . Sing for him then Requiescant in pace . Thomas .

Amen . Now sith that he is buryed let vs goe to Supper , that he may haue also his funerall Supper , and that wée may as well banket as the priests in those of the dead in the dayes of their Anniuersaries & yeares minde .

Hillarius .

Let vs goe .

FINIS .

¶ A Table of the principall matters of the thirde parte of the Christian disputacions . A. ABsolution of the quick and the dead . 275. Aduertisement . 293. Against the Originists . 272. Alexander . 283. Amongst whom are reputed the soules of Purgatory . 274. Anabaptists . 238. Ansegisus . 234 Angells dare not curse the diuells . 285. Aunswere to the place of the Psalmes . 263. Antechrist . 276. Antiochus . 215. Apocripha what it is . 216. Apostles of the circumcision . 257. Apothegma . 211 Archesilaus . 257. Argument a posteriori . 279. Asshes of Pope Boniface . 280. Augmentation of the felycitie to Angels 246. Authoritie of the booke of the Machabees . 213. Authoritie of the Prophets & Apostles . 217. Authoritie of the Scripture . 217. Authoritie of the church . 217. B. Baptise with the holy Ghost and fire . 235 Baptise two times in the yeare . 239 Baptisme delayed . 239. Baptisme onely of Iesus Christ . 256 Baptisme of woemen . 241 Baptisme of water , whether it be necessary to saluation . 232. Baptisme of deuotion . 233. Baptisme of bloud . 237. To be baptised for the dead 290 Beginning of the iudgement of God . 247. Beginning of Hell and Paradise . 248. Bonauenture deified and made God . 283. Boniface the eight . 280. Bookes Canonicall . 216. Bookes of Thoby . 262. Booke second of the Machabees . 217 Bookes Canonical and Apocripha 214 Bookes of Ioseph . 214 To be borne agayne of water how it is be vnderstanded . 234. Bosome of Abraham . 225 Boow the knee . 291 Bulles doing all things . 284 Bulles in Purgatory . 277. Burying of Purgatory . 299. Burying of the conscience . 277. C. Candell before . 268 Canons of the Apostles . 215 Cathecismenes . 237 Circumcision deferred . 229 Christ the restorer of all things . 247 Christ our pledge . 215. Church of Lausanne . 256. One onely and eternall Church . 244. Charecter indebilis . 276. Charles . 256. Clement the sixt . 283. Clockes of Purgatory . 286. Comparison of the diuine and humaine doctrine . 264. Comperison of the lyfe present and that to come 246. Condition of the children of the christions . 230. Conscience . 247. Conscientia mille testes . 247. Consolation in Abrams bosome . 231. Contrarieties of Canons . 285 Cornelius . 298. Counsell of Africa . 242. Creame Papisticall . 276. Creators of the Creator : 281. Custome of the true & false doctors . 266. D. Day of the Lord. 264. Dead doe bite . 274. The dead how they are punished in their successours . 253 Degrees of the Iudgement of god . 249 Descending of Christ into hell . 296. Difference betweene the Limbe , Purgatory and Hell. 22● . Difference betweene the fire of Purgatory and Hell. 221. Difference betweene the olde and new Testament . 244 Difference betweene the dead vnder the olde and new Testament . 244 Dispensation of the tresure of the church . 284 Disposition of this Dialogue . 262 Diuersitie of pardons . 271 Doctrine troublesome . 259 Doctors scholasticall doubting of the bulls . 284. Dreames of the Saints and of the rauing Theologasters . 213 Dreamers or sleepers . 249. E. Eccius . 262. Encrease of glory in the other lyfe . 245. En●ant how it shall beare the iniquitie of his father . 253. Error about the Sacraments . 238. Error touching the Supper . 234. Error of the Bohemians & Morians . 234. Estate of the soules after the seperation from the body . 249 Eternitie temporall . 272. Euangelists of the Pope . 287. Example of the long dayes in Purgatory . 286. Example of Iudas Machabeus . 251. Example of the mercy of God . 220. Example . 212. 286 Example of Fryer Roger. 277. Examples that the Saynts ought not to be all drawne into a generall consequence . 243. Example of Ziphora . 243. Exposition of the place of Saint Iohn ca. 3. 234. Exposition of the schoolemen vppon the pl●ce of Saint Iohn . ca. 3. 236 Exposition of the place of Thoby . 262. Exposition of the place of the 1. Cor. ca. 3. 263. Exposition Allegoricall . 268 Excommunicate the dead . 282. Excommunicate the doctrine of the dead . 285 Ex puris negatiuis nihill sequitur . 271. F. Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus . 221. Fable of the fayned mourning of a Laborer . 300. Fable of Gregory . 221. Faith of Symon . 240. Fire . 265. Foundation of the order of the Mendicants . 287. Fryer Christopher . 255. Friends of the kitchin . 223. Furyed and she diuells . 248. G. Gates of dreames . 212 Gate of y●ory and of horne . 213. Gentiles saued without Circumcision . 229. Gerion : 258. Gibellinus . 280. God of Hipocrites . 22● . God compared to tyrants . 252. Good workes . 223. Grace halfe . 251. Great Lockyer . 276. 2●5 Greatnesse of the paines of Purgatory . 221. Gregory the first made no mention of bulls for the dead . 284. H. Halfe a sauiour . 251 Hangmen of Infants . 238. Harman condempned by the Pope . 282 Saint Harman . 282 Hell of the Origenists and Catabaptists . 224. Helindius . 270 Henticus 4. 282 Hercules . 258. Herostratus . 256. Herostratus burned the Temple of Diana . 256. Herauld of righteousnesse . 29● . Holy Ghost a fire . 235. Holy Ghost water . 235. Honour to the sacraments . 2●9 . Hostensis contrary to the bulls . 284. Hipocrits enuious of the grace of god 220 Hydra . 258. I. Ignoraunce excuseth 〈◊〉 . 289. Image of death . 250 Indians . 235. Incredulitie of Thomas . 212. Insufficiencie of the booke of the Machabees for to proue Purgatory . 2●1 〈◊〉 of saints for the dead . 277. Ioseph authour of the booke of the Machabees . 214. Isaac and Ismael . Iubile of the Pope . 283. Iubile of God . 283. Iudgement of the Scriptures to whom it apperteineth . 216. Iudgement by the word . 211. Iudgement of the Sodomites and Gomorrians . 288. Iudgement of saint Hierome touching the bookes of the Machabees . 214 Iustice and mercy of God . 222 K. Keyes of saint Peter & of the Pope . 276. Keyes of hell . 279 Keye chaunged . 276. Kindr●●s of Loth. 288 L. Languages of the Prophets . 217 Our Lady of Butter . 241. Legends of Saints . 215. Legittimation . 216. Lembe . 226. Lembus . 226. Limbus . 225. Saint Lewes canonized . 282 Licence Theologicall . 225 Limbe of the Infants destroyed . 238. Limbe of the Infants . 226. Limbe of the Fathers . 244. Limbe . 219. 297 Limbe what it signifieth . 225. Liuing called dead . 294 Lud● seculares. 283. M. Madiani●s papisticall . 287. Machabees . 215. Man making Gods. 280. Manner to know God . 279. Marke of conscience . 277 Marke of the great whore . 277. Mar●●●nists . 242. Martirs before the comming of Iesus Christ . 21● . Masses for the lyttle Infants . 259. Masse of Requiem for the Saints . 255 Mans reason the foundation of purgatory . 222. Men that are dead , Gods to the Idolaters . 282. Mercury . 269. Ministers of Sacraments . 241. Moonkes dead to the world . 274. Mortui non mordent . 274. N. Necessitie . 228. New Letanie . 255. New transfiguration of Sathan . 258. O. Obiection . 2●3 . 222. 232. Obiection of the necessitie of baptisme . 237. Office of a Lieuetenaunt . 27● . Offices Ecclesiasticall . 241. The onely death of Iesus Christ satisfieth . 220. One onely God . 280. Opinion of Lombard . 227 P. Pagatory . 276. Paynes of the Limbe . 224 Payne for satisfaction . 220. Payne and fault . 251. Paynes of purgatory . 224. Pardons to whom they profit . 285. Pelagians . 239. Poena damni & poena sensus . 224. Philip king of Fraunce . 280. Pickelockes . 286. Place of purgatory . 279 Place of Saint Luke . ca. 12. 287. Place of the Actes . ca. 2. 289. Place of Saint Mathew ca 12. decl●●ed . 271. Place of the Apoc. ca. 5. 292. Place of the 1. Corinthians . ca. 15. 290. Place of the Philippians . ca. 2. 291. Place of Saint Peter . 1. ca. 3. 293. Place of Thoby contrary to the priests . 262 Place of Saint Mathew . ca. 5. expounded . 267. Place of the second booke of the Machabees , serueth nothing at all for purgatory . 219. Playes and games of the Panims . 283 Pope God , and more then God . 278 Pope Clement the sixt , cyted by Fryer walter being dead . 286. Pope Lieuetenaunt of Saint Peter . 274 Pope more puissant then Christ . 252. Pope hath more power then the saints . 278. Pope Iudge of the quick and the dead 284. Power of the keies and indulgences for the dead . 274. Power of the keyes . 274. Power of the keyes lymitted in this worlde . 284 Power to giue pardons lymitted . 285. Power of the dead vppon the Popes . 286. Prayse giuen to God for all creatures . 292. Prayers for the resurrection . 252 Prayers for the Saints that be in Paradise . 255 Prayer for the deade how that may be done . 253 Prayer for the resurrection of the bodye and the comming of Christ . 254. Prayers of the diuells . 291. Predication to the dead . 273. 293. 296. ●he Priests or woemen Priests . 242. Priesthoode of the dead . 276. Prison . 297. Prisoners . 29● Prochet Archbishop of Genes. 280. Propositions equipolents . 271. The latter Prophets . 217. Prouerbe common . 211. 267 Priuiledge . 220. Punishment vppon those that doe reiect the Gospell . 289. Punishment of the elect with the reproreprobate . 188. Punishment of sinnes . 222. Purgatory the nurse of sinnes . 222 Purgatory by what reason it is builded . 219. Purgatory before the comming of Christ . 219. Purgatory of purses . 276. Purgatory for the body . 258. Q. Question of the Infantes of the Hebrewes dead without circumcision . 226. Question Theologicall . 230. R. Rage of Pope Stephen against Formosus . 281. Raymond . 251. Rebellion and dispising the commaundements of God . 223 Reconciliation fraternall . 269. Regeneration . 234. Regula . 267. Renumeration of good deedes . 222. Reward of foolish builders . 26● . Requ●escant in pace in Purgatory . 293. De Roma the defiler of the faith . 18● S. Sacrifice of Christ eternall . 24● . Saluation without exterior Sacraments . 229. Saluation without Baptisme . 237. Saluation ly●● to the elements . 233 Saluation without visible Baptisme . 213. Saluation by piruiledge . 220. Sara and Agar . 256. Saued by fire . 265. Saul a persecutor made an Apostle . 299. See God before and behinde . 279. Seigniory of Iesus Christ . 291 Sence and meaning of the words of S. Peter . 1. Epist. Cap. 3. 296. Sence of S. Mat. words . Cap. 5. 270. Sence of the words of S. Luc. Cap. 11. 270. Sence of the words of Iesus Christ vpon the 5. Cap of Saint Mat. 269. Sence of the parable . 270. Sentence of Saint Augustine touching the children that are dead without baptisme . 238. Sergeants of Purgatory . 268. Sergius and Formosus . 281 Shed out ones bread and wine vpon the graues of the iust . 262 Sichimites . 230 Signe to iudge the true and false Prophets . 258. Signes and figures for the thinges signed and figured . 240 Silla and Marius . 281. Sillogisme . 178 Signification of Limbe . 225. Sim●n Peter . 276 Sinne against the holy Ghost . 272 Sinne to death . 256. Sinne originall . 2●9 . Sextus 283. Skirmishers . 257. Solution of Baptisme . 237. S●●e of the Scripture & of the auncient Doctors touching the Sacramets . 236 Stella Clericorum . 281. Speaking of dumbe and incorporal creatures . 292 Spirite of Bacchus . 213. Spirites prisoners . 295 Spirite that preached to the dead what ●● it is . 294 Supper giuen to Infantes by Ciprian and Origene . 234. Suburbes of hell and of Paradise . 226. T. Theology inferior and metaphisical . 257 Those which haue not beleeued in this world . 298. Three sortes of baptisme . 237 Treasure of the Church and the dispensation of the same . 284 Treasure of the Church . 264. Three hells . 224 Torments of the reprobate agrauated . 247. Transfer and giue kingdomes . 280. True Gedeon . 287. Two wayes . 225 V. Vaineglory . 257. Valentinian . 233. Valew of twelue thousand ●ragmes . 213 Vertue of Iesus Christ come to the dead . 196. Vertue of the buls and pardons . 283 Vse of Allegories . 298. W. Warre of the Geants . 256. Wells . 297 Wells of Saint Patricke . 212. Wells of fire and brimstone . 293. What knowledge of God is necessary to saluation . 279 , 298 Who doe boow the knee in hell . 291. Witnesse of God . 218. Witnesse of conscience that he is a God . 248. Word of God Iudge and guide . 212. Workes of hipocrites . 223. Worme of the conscience . 249. FINIS TABVLAE .

blazon or coat of arms of Thomas East of a black horse on a wreath atop a chevron between three horses 'heads erased, a crescent for difference (McKerrow 209) MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EN VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE

¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East , dwelling by Paules wharfe . 1579.