FISHERS
folly
unfolded
:
OR
THE
VAVNTING
Iesuits
vanitie
discovered
in
a
challenge
of
his
(
by
him
proudly
made
,
but
on
his
part
poorely
performed
)
undertaken
and
answered
by
GEORGE
WALKER
Pastor
of
S.
IOHN
Euangelist
in
Watlingstreet
LONDON
.
IN
the
hot
Moneth
of
Iune
last
past
,
viz.
Anno
1623.
when
the
courages
of
our
true-hearted
English
people
were
generally
much
cooled
through
the
absence
of
our
rising
Sunne
the
illustrious
Prince
CHARLES
then
detained
too
long
in
Spaine
among
the
Antipodes
of
our
Nation
;
but
the
Priests
and
Iesuites
those
hot
lovers
of
the
Romish
Babylon
enraged
with
the
lusts
of
that
proud
whore
,
and
puffed
up
with
hope
of
prevailing
in
this
Land
,
were
as
busie
as
waspes
and
hornets
about
our
beehives
,
and
as
wolves
about
our
folds
seducing
our
flocks
,
and
sending
generall
challenges
of
disputation
to
our
Shepherds
every
where
.
It
so
hapned
that
Father
Fisher
the
Iesuit
,
a
man
as
famous
for
his
forwardnesse
and
impudencie
in
challenging
,
as
foolish
in
performance
;
and
of
as
great
esteeme
and
name
among
the
blinde
Papists
;
as
of
little
worth
in
himselfe
and
in
the
judgement
of
wise
learned
men
,
was
by
the
meanes
and
procurement
of
one
of
his
disciples
drawne
into
the
lists
to
fight
a
single
combat
with
Master
Walker
above
named
in
manner
and
forme
following
.
First
,
a
disciple
of
his
,
a
desperate
Popish
Novice
,
resorting
often
to
the
house
of
an
elder
brother
of
his
owne
who
dwelt
in
Cheapside
,
and
(
as
the
fashion
of
such
seduced
Popelings
is
)
railing
upon
the
religion
,
and
vilifying
the
learning
and
gifts
of
Protestants
,
did
most
intemperately
extoll
the
Church
of
Rome
,
and
the
learning
of
her
Priests
,
especially
of
Fisher
the
Iesuit
,
whom
he
did
by
name
praise
to
the
heavens
for
his
disputation
with
Doctor
White
before
the
Kings
Majestie
,
and
did
not
only
boast
of
a
glorious
victory
which
there
he
had
obtained
,
but
also
did
proclaime
him
a
challenger
of
all
Preachers
in
England
,
and
did
dare
the
most
hardie
to
meet
him
face
to
face
in
any
place
or
before
any
Auditors
,
where
they
might
dispute
conveniently
.
A
younger
brother
of
his
who
was
a
Protestant
,
and
lived
in
the
house
with
his
elder
brother
,
being
often
assailed
and
attempted
by
him
,
and
not
able
to
endure
any
longer
his
boasting
and
daring
speeches
,
did
by
his
elder
brother
and
others
importune
Master
Walker
to
accept
the
challenge
,
which
he
did
upon
condition
that
a
convenient
day
might
be
agreed
upon
and
appointed
by
both
parties
.
That
the
challenge
is
accepted
they
signifie
to
their
Popish
brother
,
Fishers
Novice
.
He
wonders
that
any
dare
be
so
hardie
as
to
yeeld
so
far
in
promise
,
and
tels
them
,
that
the
promise
will
never
be
performed
,
neither
will
any
Protestant
Minister
be
so
bold
as
to
meet
his
invincible
Master
Fisher
;
but
being
urged
and
pressed
to
make
a
triall
,
hee
brings
word
at
length
upon
a
Satturday
at
night
,
that
the
next
Munday
the
Iesuit
Fisher
will
come
to
his
brothers
house
to
encounter
with
any
opposite
whomsoever
.
They
send
word
to
Master
Walker
,
who
having
urgent
businesse
,
desired
to
have
the
meeting
deferred
till
the
next
day
,
or
till
the
evening
of
that
day
,
but
could
not
obtaine
so
much
;
neverthelesse
because
he
would
in
no
case
forgoe
that
opportunitie
of
disputation
with
Fisher
,
nor
give
occasion
to
the
insulting
Novice
to
triumph
(
who
upon
his
excuse
of
urgent
businesse
in
that
day
,
began
to
boast
that
the
victorie
was
gotten
,
and
that
he
knew
and
foretold
before
hand
how
they
should
finde
it
,
and
that
no
Protestant
durst
be
so
hardie
as
to
meet
Fisher
in
the
face
)
he
willingly
did
lay
aside
all
businesse
,
and
promising
to
be
ready
at
the
time
appointed
,
sent
word
to
the
Iesuit
,
that
if
he
did
not
appeare
at
his
owne
houre
,
which
was
upon
Munday
at
ten
of
the
clocke
before
noone
,
he
should
be
judged
the
coward
and
left
without
all
excuse
.
At
the
houre
appointed
Master
Walker
came
,
and
heard
nothing
of
the
Iesuit
,
for
he
came
not
till
toward
dinner
time
,
but
then
comming
with
his
Novice
,
who
was
brother
to
the
master
of
the
house
,
he
was
entertained
with
a
dinner
,
till
Master
Walker
was
againe
sent
for
.
Who
about
one
of
the
clocke
returned
,
and
by
the
way
called
upon
Master
Burton
Pastor
of
S.
Matthewes
parish
in
Friday
street
,
and
did
request
him
to
goe
along
with
him
,
and
to
be
a
witnesse
of
the
whole
cariage
of
the
businesse
.
At
their
first
entrance
Master
Fisher
complained
because
they
came
two
against
one
.
Master
Burton
did
assure
him
that
he
came
onely
to
be
an
hearer
,
and
promised
that
he
would
not
speake
nor
intermeddle
,
except
when
both
parties
should
agree
to
it
.
Then
(
divers
friends
and
neighbours
to
the
Master
of
the
house
comming
in
to
heare
and
see
what
passed
)
Master
Walker
began
to
speake
to
the
Jesuit
as
followeth
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Sir
,
if
that
fame
and
report
,
which
you
and
your
friends
have
raised
,
and
which
goeth
abroad
concerning
your
worth
and
learning
be
true
,
you
must
needs
be
a
man
able
to
doe
more
for
the
Romish
religion
,
than
any
other
of
your
fellowes
now
living
,
or
of
your
predecessors
going
before
.
We
who
have
heard
of
your
bold
intrusion
into
the
Court
and
the
presence
of
our
learned
King
,
and
of
your
challenges
which
you
have
made
and
sent
to
Doctor
White
,
and
other
men
of
great
learning
and
note
,
doe
expect
from
you
some
extraordinarie
grounds
and
arguments
for
the
Popish
religion
,
and
such
skill
and
learning
,
as
hath
not
beene
seene
before
in
any
of
your
profession
.
Our
desire
is
therefore
,
that
at
this
time
you
will
make
knowne
unto
us
some
of
your
best
skill
,
and
shew
us
some
of
the
chiefe
grounds
upon
which
you
build
your
faith
and
religion
.
And
I
for
my
part
,
if
I
cannot
overthrow
them
by
Gods
word
,
will
very
willingly
yeeld
unto
them
,
and
acknowledge
that
you
have
the
truth
on
your
side
.
The
Iesuit
at
the
mention
of
his
great
fame
and
report
shewed
a
kinde
of
itching
delight
,
and
used
never
a
word
tending
by
way
of
modestie
to
extenuate
his
learning
and
gifts
;
but
as
one
desirous
to
increase
his
owne
fame
,
and
to
justifie
the
report
which
the
blinde
Papists
give
out
concerning
his
worth
,
breaks
out
with
a
smiling
sigh
into
a
Pharisaicall
commendation
of
himselfe
to
this
effect
.
Mr.
Fisher.
Indeed
I
must
confesse
,
that
I
have
alwaies
from
my
childhood
loved
the
truth
,
and
diligently
sought
after
it
.
Once
I
was
a
Protestant
(
God
forgive
me
)
and
did
with
an
hungring
desire
inquire
after
the
truth
,
but
could
never
receive
any
satisfaction
among
any
sects
of
Protestants
,
but
spent
my
labour
in
vaine
,
still
remaining
full
of
doubts
and
scruples
.
Whereupon
I
did
with
all
humilitie
,
fasting
and
prayer
seeke
unto
God
,
and
pray
unto
him
,
to
guide
me
into
the
way
of
truth
.
Who
at
length
for
my
humilitie
and
the
sinceritie
of
my
heart
,
did
grant
my
request
,
and
did
draw
me
unto
the
Catholike
Church
,
where
I
found
the
truth
and
a
sure
ground
to
rest
upon
,
from
which
I
purpose
never
to
be
moved
,
but
will
hold
me
to
it
for
ever
.
Mr.
Burton
.
Mr.
Burton
grieved
to
heare
the
Iesuit
boasting
after
such
a
Pharisaicall
manner
,
could
not
refraine
,
but
taxed
him
of
pride
and
hypocrisie
for
ascribing
his
calling
and
his
knowledge
of
the
truth
and
of
true
religion
(
as
he
termed
it
)
to
the
merit
of
his
owne
humilitie
,
sinceritie
,
and
his
praiers
,
which
he
made
before
his
conversion
,
while
he
remained
in
ignorance
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Mr.
Walker
also
taking
hold
of
his
speech
desired
to
ground
a
disputation
upon
his
words
,
and
offered
to
prove
that
the
Iesuit
did
erre
most
damnably
and
heretically
in
the
first
grounds
of
his
faith
and
religion
,
in
that
he
builded
his
first
calling
upon
the
merit
of
his
owne
vertues
and
of
his
works
which
he
performed
before
his
calling
in
the
state
of
ignorance
and
blindnesse
.
He
also
taxed
him
of
manifest
absurditie
and
contradiction
in
his
speech
,
in
that
he
first
so
farre
vilified
and
condemned
the
Protestant
state
,
and
counted
it
so
sinfull
and
damnable
,
that
he
asked
forgivenesse
of
God
for
his
once
being
a
Protestant
:
and
yet
immediatly
did
attribute
his
conversion
and
calling
into
the
Catholike
Church
unto
the
merit
of
works
which
in
that
state
he
performed
.
Moreover
he
charged
him
with
extreame
folly
and
madnesse
for
abandoning
and
forsaking
that
Church
&
state
,
wherein
(
by
his
owne
confession
)
he
did
performe
works
meritorious
,
and
betaking
himselfe
to
the
service
and
slaverie
of
the
Church
of
Rome
that
whore
of
Babylon
,
the
reward
and
just
wages
of
whose
servants
and
followers
is
shewed
in
Gods
word
,
Revel.
19.
to
be
the
wrath
of
God
and
eternall
vengeance
in
the
lake
that
burneth
with
fire
and
brimstone
for
evermore
.
For
answer
to
these
obiections
,
the
Iesuit
complained
,
that
it
was
uneqvall
for
two
to
set
against
one
both
at
once
.
And
Master
Burton
desiring
to
bee
excused
for
that
he
could
not
but
out
of
his
zeale
reprove
his
palpable
boasting
of
his
owne
merits
,
promised
to
be
silent
hereafter
,
if
he
would
fall
to
disputation
with
Master
Walker
.
Then
the
Iesuit
proceeded
and
spake
to
this
effect
.
Mr.
Fisher.
The
Church
of
Rome
,
of
which
I
am
a
member
,
is
the
onely
true
Catholike
Church
,
for
it
holdeth
the
same
truth
which
Christ
and
his
Apostles
commended
to
it
,
and
hath
not
altered
nor
erred
in
any
maine
point
,
but
holds
the
same
still
,
which
all
true
Catholike
and
Orthodox
Fathers
and
Doctors
did
teach
,
as
here
is
manifestly
shewed
and
proved
in
this
booke
by
Gualtherius
(
meaning
Gualtherius
his
Chronographica
sacra
,
which
there
hee
had
brought
and
laid
before
him
on
the
table
)
who
doth
produce
plaine
testimonies
of
the
Fathers
in
all
ages
,
from
the
time
of
Christ
,
confirming
the
maine
points
of
the
Roman
Catholike
religion
,
wherein
Protestants
dissent
from
Catholikes
.
I
doe
challenge
you
to
shew
the
like
evidences
for
the
Religion
and
doctrine
which
your
Church
doth
hold
;
which
because
you
cannot
doe
,
it
is
manifest
that
you
have
not
the
truth
,
neither
are
a
true
Church
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Well
Master
Fisher
,
if
this
be
the
best
ground
which
you
have
to
build
vpon
,
wee
shall
easily
answer
you
,
and
make
it
appeare
that
you
are
not
the
man
which
flying
fame
reports
you
to
be
,
and
that
you
build
on
a
sandie
foundation
.
I
did
expect
some
grounds
and
arguments
gathered
out
of
the
sacred
Scriptures
,
and
hewed
out
of
the
rocke
of
Gods
word
by
the
hand
and
art
of
some
deeply
learned
Divine
:
but
I
perceive
that
the
best
testimonie
which
you
have
to
alleage
for
your
Religion
,
is
that
booke
composed
by
one
of
your
owne
side
,
and
all
you
can
say
for
your selfe
,
is
as
the
old
Proverbe
runnes
;
Aske
my
fellow
theese
if
I
be
a
true
man
,
which
you
know
it
stands
him
upon
to
affirme
whether
true
or
false
.
As
for
●●●●●rius
,
hee
is
as
bold
,
impudent
,
and
shamelesse
a
Pa●●st
,
as
needs
put
pen
to
paper
;
For
those
testimoni●s
of
forged
Fathers
,
and
of
old
Liturgies
,
which
all
the
learned
of
your
Religion
(
who
have
any
wit
,
learning
,
or
dram
of
modestie
appearing
in
them
)
have
reiected
,
he
doth
boldly
and
familiarly
cite
and
produce
for
proofes
without
any
shame
or
blushing
.
If
I
should
for
our
Religion
cite
and
produce
a
booke
of
Luther
or
Calvin
,
or
any
other
Protestant
,
you
would
laugh
mee
to
scorne
:
yea
,
you
reiect
the
bookes
of
the
Fathers
printed
or
set
forth
among
us
,
though
you
could
never
iustly
tax
or
convince
any
one
of
us
of
partiall
dealing
,
or
of
the
least
wilfull
falsification
.
Let
mee
further
admonish
you
,
that
you
shew
little
discretion
in
bringing
humane
testimonies
,
especially
of
late
writers
,
to
maintaine
your
Religion
against
me
,
or
to
confute
my
Religion
;
For
I
am
,
as
you
know
,
a
Preacher
of
the
Gospell
,
one
of
them
whom
yee
call
Protestants
,
and
wee
doe
not
build
upon
any
but
the
foundation
of
the
Prophets
and
Apostles
,
Christ
himselfe
being
the
head
corner
stone
.
We
doe
not
regard
in
a
controverted
point
of
faith
,
what
any
Father
or
Doctor
doth
hold
,
or
hath
held
in
former
ages
;
but
what
Christ
and
his
Prophets
and
Apostles
haue
left
recorded
in
the
infallible
Scriptures
of
the
old
and
new
Testament
,
and
what
the
Fathers
haue
truly
from
thence
observed
.
We
use
the
learned
who
have
gone
before
us
as
helps
and
guides
in
places
of
Scripture
and
opinions
which
are
doubtfull
;
but
wee
doe
(
as
they
desired
)
denie
their
testimonies
to
bee
grounds
of
faith
.
Wherefore
let
us
leave
off
all
superfluous
and
idle
allegations
and
discourses
,
and
let
us
come
to
a
strict
forme
of
disputation
about
some
maine
points
of
controversie
.
If
you
be
pleased
to
oppose
any
speciall
article
of
our
faith
,
I
will
defend
it
,
or
if
you
will
take
upon
you
to
answer
,
I
will
prove
against
you
,
That
your
father
the
Pope
is
Antichrist
,
That
the
Church
of
Rome
is
the
whore
of
Babylon
:
That
your
doctrine
of
merit
of
iustification
before
God
by
your
owne
workes
is
hereticall
;
And
that
your
Image-worship
is
damnable
idolatrie
.
Mr.
Fisher.
If
you
bee
so
forward
to
dispute
,
I
am
for
you
,
and
I
come
for
that
purpose
;
But
have
you
no
other
points
to
prove
,
saue
these
,
That
the
Pope
is
Antichrist
,
and
the
Church
of
Rome
the
whore
of
Babylon
?
I
remember
that
you
urged
me
to
dispute
upon
these
above
three
yeeres
agoe
,
when
you
came
to
me
in
the
New-prison
,
belike
you
spend
all
your
time
and
studie
in
these
questions
.
Mr.
Walker
.
It
is
true
that
I
desired
to
dispute
upon
these
questions
foure
yeeres
agoe
,
and
then
you
refused
,
I
hope
you
have
since
studied
how
to
defend
them
,
though
then
you
were
unprovided
.
Indeed
I
doe
offer
these
questions
first
of
all
to
every
Priest
and
Iesuit
with
whom
I
meet
,
because
the
proving
of
any
one
of
them
doth
at
one
blow
overthrow
all
Poperie
:
but
you
all
are
as
much
afraid
of
these
questions
as
a
dog
of
the
whip
.
I
could
never
yet
meet
with
one
of
you
,
which
durst
vndertake
to
maintaine
the
negative
part
:
For
you
are
as
wise
as
Serpents
in
your
generation
:
you
know
by
wofull
experience
,
what
hard
and
base
&
silly
shifts
Bellarmine
,
Suarez
and
others
of
your
most
learned
Iesuits
,
have
beene
driven
to
seeke
,
while
they
labour
in
writing
to
answer
vs
in
these
questions
,
and
how
miserably
they
are
confounded
,
contradicting
one
another
,
and
every
one
himselfe
in
many
things
.
And
this
is
the
cause
why
you
cannot
endure
to
deale
with
vs
in
these
killing
points
of
controversie
,
wherein
you
are
sure
to
be
overthrowne
.
But
if
these
please
you
not
,
doe
you
name
any
other
questions
,
and
you
shall
finde
mee
ready
and
willing
to
dispute
with
you
without
further
delay
.
Mr.
Fisher.
I
am
content
:
But
that
we
may
have
some
ground
to
build
on
;
First
,
I
will
propound
some
questions
to
you
in
writing
,
to
which
I
require
your
answer
in
writing
also
,
that
there
may
bee
no
mistaking
or
misreporting
hereafter
of
that
which
passeth
between
vs
.
Mr.
Walker
.
If
you
will
set
downe
any
question
in
writing
,
and
write
downe
also
your
arguments
,
I
will
also
write
my
answers
to
them
,
but
all
other
kinde
of
questioning
I
refuse
,
as
a
meanes
tending
to
prolong
the
time
,
and
keepe
us
off
from
strict
disputation
.
I
remember
that
when
I
was
with
you
foure
yeeres
agoe
,
you
did
trifle
away
a
whole
afternoone
by
ambiguous
questions
,
and
could
not
be
drawne
at
all
to
disputation
.
Mr.
Fisher.
Wee
cannot
dispute
without
some
ground
laid
downe
and
agreed
upon
:
I
will
therefore
first
here
propound
in
writing
this
question
,
(
then
he
wrote
downe
as
followeth
)
God
the
Father
sent
his
Sonne
our
Saviour
to
teach
all
points
of
faith
necessarie
to
salvation
,
bidding
his
Apostles
heare
him
.
Mr.
Walker
.
This
is
no
point
of
controversie
betweene
you
and
us
;
but
if
you
make
it
questionable
,
I
answer
affirmatively
,
granting
the
proposition
to
bee
true
,
doe
you
prove
the
contrarie
if
you
can
.
*
Then
the
Iesuit
taking
the
paper
,
wrote
a
second
proposition
,
viz.
Mr.
Fisher.
Our
Lord
said
to
his
Apostles
,
As
my
Father
sent
mee
,
so
send
I
you
,
hee
that
heareth
you
heareth
mee
,
goe
teach
all
Nations
,
baptizing
them
,
&c.
and
teaching
them
to
observe
all
things
which
I
have
commanded
you
;
behold
,
I
am
with
you
all
daies
untill
the
end
of
the
world
.
Mr.
Walker
.
To
this
Master
Walker
answered
when
hee
read
it
;
That
he
desired
an
argument
,
not
a
new
proposition
,
and
urged
him
either
to
dispute
upon
the
former
question
,
or
else
to
propound
some
point
of
controversie
;
for
hee
would
not
bee
deluded
nor
spend
any
more
time
in
trifling
and
writing
downe
propositions
not
controverted
.
Mr.
Fisher.
If
this
proposition
be
not
controverted
,
doe
you
grant
it
vnder
your
hand
,
and
I
will
upon
your
owns
confession
ground
a
controversie
and
an
argument
which
shall
hold
you
fast
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Before
you
can
make
an
argument
,
you
must
agree
with
mee
upon
some
point
of
controversie
,
let
us
therefore
know
what
I
shall
defend
,
and
what
point
you
will
dispute
against
.
Mr.
Fisher.
I
come
instantly
to
the
point
,
if
you
will
grant
the
last
proposition
to
bee
true
,
under
your
hand
,
(
this
being
done
)
he
takes
the
paper
and
writes
the
third
proposition
.
This
commission
of
our
Sauiour
to
his
Apostles
,
was
not
onely
to
their
persons
,
and
for
their
lives
,
but
to
those
which
should
by
them
bee
sent
,
and
should
lawfully
succeed
them
in
all
ages
,
yeeres
,
moneths
and
daies
,
untill
the
end
of
the
world
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Master
Walker
seeing
this
,
refused
to
answer
to
any
more
questions
or
propositions
in
word
or
writing
,
except
it
were
a
proposition
disputable
;
and
when
the
Iesuit
said
that
by
degrees
hee
meant
thus
to
bring
him
on
to
a
maine
point
of
controversie
,
upon
which
hee
would
dispute
;
Indeed
(
saith
hee
)
you
have
so
promised
,
and
deceived
mee
now
three
times
,
I
will
no
longer
bee
held
in
suspence
;
and
if
you
can
no
way
come
to
disputation
but
by
such
propositions
,
I
will
trie
whether
I
can
by
the
same
meanes
draw
you
to
some
head
of
controversie
:
Then
taking
a
paper
,
he
wrote
downe
this
proposition
:
They
who
teach
,
hold
and
maintaine
doctrines
contrarie
and
repugnant
to
the
Scriptures
,
even
the
word
of
God
taught
by
Christ
and
his
Prophets
and
Apostles
in
the
old
and
new
Testament
,
are
not
the
true
successors
of
Christ
and
his
Apostles
.
Mr.
Fisher.
This
assertion
the
Iesuit
granted
,
but
would
not
write
downe
any
thing
,
and
still
urged
Master
Walker
to
grant
his
third
proposition
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Stay
(
saith
Master
Walker
)
I
must
first
have
you
to
answer
a
second
proposition
,
before
I
answer
your
third
;
then
hee
wrote
downe
a
second
to
this
effect
.
The
Church
Teachers
and
Pastors
,
who
doe
teach
no
other
doctrine
as
necessarie
to
salvation
,
but
that
,
and
onely
that
which
is
taught
in
the
Scriptures
by
Christ
and
his
Apostles
and
Prophets
,
are
undoubtedly
the
true
Church
of
Christ
,
and
the
true
successors
of
Christ
and
his
Apostles
.
Mr.
Fisher.
To
this
the
Iesuit
seemed
unwilling
to
answer
,
till
at
length
being
much
urged
,
hee
for
very
shame
yeelded
to
grant
the
proposition
,
by
saying
,
I
doe
not
denie
it
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Whereupon
Master
Walker
spake
thus
:
Now
Master
Fisher
,
you
have
granted
me
two
maine
grounds
,
upon
which
I
will
dispute
,
and
upon
the
first
I
will
proue
,
That
the
Church
of
Rome
and
her
Pope
and
Priests
,
are
not
the
true
Church
,
nor
true
successors
of
Christ
and
his
Apostles
.
And
upon
the
other
I
will
prove
,
That
the
Church
of
England
and
her
Protestant
Pastors
are
the
true
Church
and
successors
of
Christ
and
his
Apostles
.
Mr.
Fisher.
But
stay
(
saith
Fisher
)
let
me
first
have
your
answer
to
my
third
proposition
,
and
then
wee
will
come
to
disputation
immediatly
.
Mr.
Walker
.
If
I
doe
answer
,
you
will
not
dispute
,
because
there
is
no
matter
of
controversie
in
your
proposition
.
Neverthelesse
,
that
you
may
have
no
excuse
nor
colour
of
delay
,
I
grant
your
assertion
thus
vnderstood
,
viz.
That
to
all
those
who
are
sent
by
the
Apostles
,
and
in
calling
and
doctrine
lawfully
succeed
them
in
all
ages
,
yeeres
and
daies
,
untill
the
end
of
the
world
,
Christ
gave
commission
to
teach
people
of
every
Nation
,
and
to
baptize
them
,
and
promised
to
bee
with
them
.
But
if
you
meane
by
the
last
clause
cunningly
to
imply
,
that
there
are
in
all
ages
,
yeeres
,
moneths
and
daies
,
a
continued
succession
of
Bishops
and
Pastors
in
one
and
the
same
visible
Chaire
and
Sea
,
sent
by
the
Apostles
,
and
lawfully
succeeding
them
as
in
place
,
so
in
all
points
of
doctrine
;
I
denie
your
proposition
,
and
if
you
please
,
let
this
be
the
question
betweene
us
,
and
let
it
be
your
part
to
prove
it
against
me
.
Mr.
Fisher.
This
answer
Master
Fisher
desired
him
to
write
downe
,
which
hee
promised
,
upon
condition
Fisher
would
first
write
downe
his
answers
to
the
two
propositions
by
him
propounded
.
And
after
much
adoe
,
the
Iesuit
takes
the
paper
,
and
under
the
first
assertion
which
hee
had
before
granted
,
viz.
That
they
who
teach
doctrines
contrarie
to
Gods
word
,
are
not
lawfull
successors
of
the
Apostles
,
hee
writes
an
ambiguous
answer
in
these
words
:
I
grant
,
but
Catholikes
doe
not
so
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Against
this
answer
Master
Walker
excepted
,
that
it
was
an
equivocation
,
and
might
bee
vnderstood
two
waies
,
either
thus
;
I
Fisher
,
out
of
my
private
opinion
,
or
for
some
purpose
,
grant
this
proposition
to
bee
true
,
but
it
is
not
granted
by
Catholikes
generally
;
or
else
thus
,
I
grant
that
they
who
teach
doctrines
contrarie
to
Gods
word
,
are
not
true
successors
of
the
Apostles
;
but
Catholikes
doe
not
so
teach
:
If
you
meane
the
first
way
,
and
in
the
first
sense
,
you
doe
but
mocke
us
:
But
if
you
speake
in
the
latter
sense
,
your
answer
is
more
than
needs
,
and
is
a
denying
of
an
assumption
which
I
have
not
yet
expressed
,
viz.
That
Catholikes
doe
teach
doctrines
contrarie
to
the
Scriptures
.
If
by
Catholikes
you
understand
all
such
as
hold
the
true
Catholike
faith
,
I
doe
not
,
neither
will
charge
them
with
that
which
you
denie
before
hand
.
But
if
by
Catholikes
you
understand
Papists
,
your
conscience
doth
accuse
you
before
hand
,
and
I
will
prove
that
supposed
assumption
which
you
denie
,
to
wit
,
That
the
Papists
teach
doctrines
contrarie
to
the
Scriptures
.
Mr.
Fisher.
I
pray
you
be
not
so
hastie
,
let
us
come
fairely
and
easily
to
another
chiefe
thing
,
unto
which
I
labour
to
bring
you
,
which
will
bee
more
materiall
,
as
you
shall
see
presently
;
then
taking
the
paper
,
hee
writes
a
fourth
proposition
in
these
words
:
This
companie
of
Doctors
and
Pastors
succeeding
one
another
,
appointed
to
instruct
people
in
all
ages
,
and
to
confirme
them
in
faith
,
could
not
performe
their
duties
without
being
so
knowne
in
the
world
,
that
all
men
of
all
ages
might
haue
recourse
to
them
,
and
might
learne
from
them
all
truth
,
neither
could
they
be
so
secret
,
that
all
stories
should
bee
silent
of
the
Doctors
and
doctrines
taught
by
them
in
all
ages
.
Mr.
Walker
.
This
proposition
when
Master
Walker
had
read
with
an
audible
voice
,
hee
asked
the
Iesuit
whether
it
were
his
purpose
to
dispute
upon
it
(
which
hee
affirming
)
hee
answered
,
that
it
was
not
a
fit
proposition
to
be
disputed
,
because
it
contained
a
great
number
of
questions
and
equivocations
,
and
being
urged
by
the
Iesuit
to
shew
his
exceptions
against
it
,
hee
noted
downe
these
particulars
.
First
,
that
it
is
absurd
to
hold
,
that
all
Pastors
and
Doctors
lawfully
succeeding
the
Apostles
,
were
knowne
in
the
world
to
all
men
of
all
ages
;
for
there
be
many
thousands
of
such
Pastors
who
were
knowne
to
none
but
to
the
men
of
the
ages
in
which
they
lived
.
Secondly
,
it
is
an
error
to
hold
that
all
the
men
of
the
ages
in
which
they
lived
had
recourse
unto
them
,
and
learned
of
them
the
truth
;
for
it
is
sufficient
that
their
owne
flocks
,
even
the
sheepe
of
Christ
,
did
know
them
and
heare
their
voice
.
Thirdly
,
men
may
bee
true
Pastors
lawfully
succeeding
the
Apostles
,
though
they
teach
not
all
truth
,
but
onely
the
maine
points
of
faith
necessarie
to
salvation
.
Fourthly
,
such
true
Pastors
may
bee
so
secret
that
all
stories
may
bee
silent
of
them
,
and
of
their
teaching
and
doctrine
.
Fifthly
,
though
their
names
and
doctrines
were
recorded
in
the
stories
of
those
ages
,
yet
the
stories
now
extant
may
be
silent
of
them
;
because
some
Popes
,
by
name
Gregorie
the
7.
did
corrupt
and
deface
all
sorts
of
records
and
writings
both
civill
and
ecclesiasticall
,
which
made
against
their
forged
primacie
,
pride
and
corrupt
doctrine
,
as
Aventine
testifies
,
lib.
5.
Annal.
Boiorum
.
By
which
meanes
many
ecclesiasticall
stories
perished
,
and
others
are
corrupted
untill
this
day
.
Mr.
Fisher.
To
the
first
of
these
exceptions
,
the
Iesuit
yeelded
,
and
limited
his
long
speech
by
adding
immediatly
after
the
word
(
ages
)
this
clause
(
in
which
they
lived
.
)
Concerning
the
second
exception
,
he
asked
this
question
,
Whether
none
but
the
sheepe
of
Christ
did
know
the
true
Pastors
and
heare
them
?
It
was
answered
,
That
it
was
enough
that
they
were
knowne
and
heard
by
the
sheepe
of
Christ
:
To
which
Fisher
replied
,
That
their
persecutors
must
needs
know
them
,
and
heare
of
their
doctrine
,
or
else
how
coula
they
actually
persecute
them
and
their
doctrine
.
Master
Walker
answered
,
That
their
persecutors
did
not
know
Christ
to
be
the
Lord
of
life
,
nor
them
to
bee
his
seruants
,
nor
the
truth
of
their
doctrine
,
for
then
they
would
not
have
persecuted
them
;
onely
such
as
in
persecuting
them
did
sinne
against
the
light
of
the
holy
Ghost
(
if
there
were
any
such
persecutors
)
they
did
know
them
and
their
doctrine
.
To
the
third
exception
Fisher
first
yeelded
,
and
inserted
after
these
words
(
to
learne
from
them
all
truth
)
this
clause
(
in
all
the
maine
points
necessary
to
salvation
)
and
then
he
asked
what
he
did
understand
by
a
maine
point
.
Master
Walker
answered
,
That
by
a
maine
point
he
understood
that
which
the
infallible
Scriptures
of
the
old
and
new
Testament
doe
teach
to
bee
necessary
to
salvation
,
and
require
that
we
should
so
beleeve
it
.
To
the
fourth
and
fifth
exceptions
he
gave
no
answer
,
but
labouring
to
decline
the
mention
of
them
,
takes
the
paper
and
writes
down●
a
cavilling
demand
,
concerning
the
maine
points
necessary
to
salvation
,
in
these
words
:
Name
what
particular
points
these
are
,
or
give
a
generall
definition
,
by
which
all
sorts
even
of
Protestants
shall
agree
to
be
such
.
Which
when
Master
Walker
had
read
,
he
answered
to
this
effect
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Now
Mr.
Fisher
you
doe
shew
your selfe
in
your
colours
what
you
are
indeed
,
and
what
I
have
ever
since
I
first
knew
you
suspected
you
to
be
,
even
a
very
idle
wrangling
Sophister
,
unskilfull
in
the
art
of
Logicke
,
and
ignorant
in
the
rules
of
disputation
.
First
,
if
you
demand
a
generall
definition
of
a
maine
point
necessary
to
salvation
,
that
I
have
given
already
when
I
wrote
downe
that
it
was
,
that
which
the
infallible
Scriptures
doe
teach
to
be
necessary
to
salvation
.
But
your
words
are
senslesse
in
themselues
,
and
I
cannot
tell
what
you
meane
by
this
clause
(
a
definition
by
which
all
sorts
of
Protestants
shall
agree
to
be
such
.
)
This
speech
savours
of
distraction
:
For
no
sorts
of
Protestants
doe
goe
about
to
make
themselves
to
agree
to
be
maine
points
of
truth
necessarie
to
salvation
,
we
desire
only
to
know
,
beleeve
,
and
teach
such
points
.
Mr.
Fisher.
Fisher
thus
caught
in
his
owne
net
,
had
no
other
way
to
winde
out
himselfe
,
but
onely
urged
Master
Walker
to
name
all
the
particular
points
which
the
Scriptures
doe
teach
for
maine
points
necessarie
to
salvation
.
To
which
Master
Walker
thus
answered
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Indeed
I
commend
your
wit
and
wise
providence
:
for
if
you
could
perswade
me
to
undertake
the
naming
of
all
such
particular
points
,
you
know
it
would
require
more
time
than
till
to
morrow
night
,
and
by
this
meanes
you
should
escape
without
disputation
,
and
sleepe
quietly
in
a
whole
skinne
this
night
.
But
you
shall
not
so
escape
,
For
I
doe
appeale
to
all
here
present
,
whether
this
be
not
a
meere
wrangling
shift
to
avoid
disputation
for
the
present
.
And
I
doe
here
charge
you
(
if
your
owne
conscience
doth
not
inwardly
tell
you
,
that
either
your
Religion
is
so
false
that
it
cannot
be
defended
;
or
you
your selfe
so
unlearned
that
you
are
unable
to
maintaine
it
)
that
you
doe
without
further
delay
agree
to
dispute
with
me
vpon
some
maine
points
of
controuersie
betweene
Protestants
and
Papists
.
If
you
refuse
,
I
will
tax
you
for
a
faint
hearted
coward
and
dastard
,
and
so
esteeme
you
hereafter
at
all
times
.
Mr.
Fisher.
But
if
I
yeeld
to
dispute
with
you
,
who
shall
be
Iudge
betweene
us
?
Mr.
Walker
.
The
chiefe
judge
of
all
shall
be
the
word
of
God
,
and
these
hearers
shall
judge
of
the
forme
and
cariage
of
our
disputation
,
and
to
whom
the
victory
doth
belong
.
Mr.
Fisher.
They
know
not
the
word
of
God
,
neither
can
you
your selfe
certainly
tell
which
is
the
true
word
of
God
.
M.
Walker
.
Yes
,
I
haue
it
here
at
hand
to
shew
(
and
taking
out
of
his
pocket
Plantines
Hebrew
Bible
in
octauo
without
pricks
,
bound
with
a
Syriacke
and
Greeke
Testament
)
Loe
(
saith
he
)
here
is
the
true
word
of
God
,
even
the
whole
Scriptures
of
the
old
and
new
Testament
,
in
the
originall
tongues
wherein
they
were
first
spoken
by
the
spirit
of
God
,
and
written
by
his
penmen
.
Mr.
Fisher.
How
doe
you
know
that
this
booke
is
the
word
of
God
and
the
originall
Scriptures
?
Mr.
Walker
.
I
know
that
all
,
not
only
Protestants
but
Papists
,
acknowledge
and
confesse
it
so
to
be
.
First
Papists
,
because
Arias
Montanus
a
great
learned
Doctor
of
the
Church
of
Rome
did
set
it
forth
,
and
Plantine
a
Catholike
Printer
did
print
it
,
and
that
at
the
charges
of
Philip
the
second
your
great
Catholike
King
of
Spaine
:
so
that
you
being
a
Romane
Catholike
cannot
(
except
you
have
cast
off
all
shamefastnesse
)
but
acknowledge
it
for
the
word
of
God
in
the
originall
tongues
.
Secondly
,
we
Protestants
are
so
confident
of
the
infallible
truth
of
the
word
contained
in
this
booke
,
that
we
altogether
build
our
faith
and
religion
upon
it
.
Mr.
Fisher.
How
doe
you
know
that
Plantine
printed
this
booke
?
Mr.
Walker
.
Loe
here
the
title
page
,
where
it
is
testified
to
be
printed
by
him
at
Antwerp
,
and
the
yeere
of
the
world
according
to
the
lesse
account
of
the
Iewish
Rabbins
is
here
specified
(
with
these
words
he
shewed
the
book
and
page
to
Fisher
)
who
discerning
it
to
be
printed
in
such
a
Character
as
he
could
not
reade
,
put
it
from
him
,
as
if
he
had
beene
afraid
to
looke
on
it
.
Whereupon
Master
Walker
began
to
play
upon
him
,
and
taking
advantage
of
his
ignorance
,
made
the
company
some
sport
,
saying
:
What
Master
Fisher
,
are
you
a
learned
Iesuit
,
and
one
of
the
Popes
great
champions
,
and
yet
can
you
not
reade
this
faire
print
?
I
cry
you
mercy
,
Graecum
est
non
potest
legi
:
yea
it
is
worse
than
so
,
it
is
Hebrew
printed
in
Hebrew
words
and
letters
,
which
to
the
common
sort
of
Popish
Priests
is
more
terrible
and
dreadfull
than
conjuring
figures
.
But
in
good
sadnesse
can
you
not
reade
it
?
or
doe
you
but
dissemble
,
Master
Fisher
?
I
am
afraid
by
your
gestures
that
you
are
in
earnest
,
and
your
countenance
doth
make
me
so
confident
of
your
ignorance
,
that
I
will
adventure
my
booke
upon
it
,
and
though
I
will
not
otherwise
take
twenty
shillings
for
it
,
yet
I
here
before
all
this
company
promise
to
give
it
you
for
your
paines
,
if
you
can
but
reade
one
sentence
in
it
out
of
the
originall
text
.
Which
offer
when
Fisher
refused
,
some
of
the
standers
by
laughed
at
him
,
others
wondred
whether
this
were
Fisher
the
Iesuit
,
and
made
a
question
of
it
.
Master
Burton
who
had
promised
silence
,
observing
the
Iesuits
folly
by
this
behaviour
and
other
idle
speeches
,
told
him
,
that
he
must
give
him
leave
to
laugh
and
not
be
offended
,
for
he
had
by
his
promise
at
the
beginning
bound
himselfe
from
speaking
,
but
not
from
laughing
.
Mr.
Fisher.
The
Iesuit
plunged
into
this
perplexitie
,
thought
it
best
to
be
gone
,
and
said
that
his
businesse
called
him
away
,
he
could
stay
no
longer
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Mr.
Walker
answered
,
that
this
was
an
idle
excuse
.
For
(
saith
he
)
you
know
Master
Fisher
that
this
day
and
houre
was
appointed
by
your selfe
and
set
apart
for
disputation
,
and
though
my
businesse
was
great
,
I
was
forced
to
lay
all
aside
for
this
worke
,
because
no
other
day
nor
time
would
be
accepted
.
Therefore
it
is
very
unlikely
that
any
businesse
should
now
call
you
away
,
or
that
you
should
appoint
this
time
for
any
other
imployment
,
except
you
came
either
in
hope
to
finde
no
adversarie
which
durst
encounter
you
,
or
with
purpose
,
if
any
appeared
,
to
shift
off
disputation
by
some
such
device
.
By
these
and
such
speeches
,
as
also
by
the
importunitie
of
the
standers-by
,
the
Iesuit
was
detained
,
and
falling
into
the
question
about
the
infallible
word
of
God
,
after
many
speeches
which
passed
to
and
fro
about
the
originall
Scriptures
and
the
translations
,
which
was
most
authenticall
,
and
which
translations
the
best
and
most
uncorrupt
and
free
from
grosse
errors
.
Master
Walker
to
cut
off
all
needlesse
discourse
about
such
questions
,
did
very
earnestly
demand
of
the
Iesuit
,
whether
he
thought
the
vulgar
Latine
translation
of
the
Bible
to
be
the
most
pure
,
uncorrupt
and
authenticall
edition
of
the
Scriptures
,
and
the
true
word
of
God
according
to
the
determination
of
the
Councell
of
Trent
.
Mr.
Fisher.
Fisher
answered
,
that
he
held
it
to
be
the
uncorrupt
word
of
God
,
and
the
most
authentike
edition
of
the
Scriptures
,
Mr.
Walker
.
And
though
I
doe
much
dissent
from
you
in
this
opinion
(
saith
Master
Walker
)
and
doe
hold
that
of
all
translations
which
are
of
any
esteeme
among
Christians
,
there
is
none
so
full
of
errors
and
mistakings
,
even
in
the
judgement
of
S.
Hierome
himselfe
,
upon
whom
the
Papists
falsly
father
it
:
yet
so
far
I
doe
approve
of
it
,
that
I
doe
not
doubt
but
any
learned
Divine
may
easily
gather
,
teach
and
confirme
out
of
it
all
doctrines
which
are
necessarie
to
salvation
.
For
whatsoever
necessarie
truth
is
omitted
in
one
place
by
mis-translation
,
it
is
plainly
expressed
in
some
other
places
of
the
same
,
which
are
truly
and
faithfully
translated
.
And
here
I
doe
make
a
faire
offer
,
and
most
equall
motion
to
you
before
all
here
present
,
viz.
That
I
will
undertake
to
make
a
plaine
confession
of
the
Protestants
faith
,
and
of
all
the
articles
of
religion
(
which
the
Church
of
England
holds
necessarie
to
salvation
)
in
the
very
words
and
sentences
of
the
vulgar
Latine
Bible
without
any
materiall
alteration
at
all
,
upon
condition
that
you
(
when
I
have
made
good
my
word
and
promise
)
will
grant
and
acknowledge
that
the
confession
so
made
is
a
true
confession
of
the
true
Christian
faith
,
and
that
all
such
articles
are
to
be
received
and
embraced
for
articles
of
the
true
religion
.
Mr.
Fisher.
This
offer
when
the
Iesuit
refused
to
accept
,
he
was
much
condemned
,
censured
and
reproved
by
the
hearers
.
Wherefore
to
avoid
all
further
urging
in
this
point
,
and
for
the
escaping
of
more
reproofe
and
censure
,
he
flies
backe
to
the
generall
question
concerning
the
word
of
God
,
and
taking
a
paper
wrote
downe
his
assent
:
That
the
word
of
God
comprehends
in
it
,
1.
The
Scriptures
.
2.
Whatsoever
by
good
consequence
is
gathered
from
the
holy
Scriptures
.
And
withall
he
wrote
downe
this
question
,
viz.
who
must
be
the
Iudge
when
the
Scriptures
are
doubtfull
,
and
when
the
question
is
of
the
goodnesse
of
the
consequence
.
And
withall
he
professed
that
for
his
part
he
held
the
Church
to
be
the
Iudge
,
and
that
when
the
Church
hath
iudged
,
no
private
man
must
oppose
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Mr.
Walker
on
the
other
side
professed
,
that
for
the
goodnesse
of
the
consequence
Logicians
must
judge
by
reason
and
the
rules
of
Logicke
.
And
for
the
sense
and
meaning
of
the
doubtfull
places
,
the
Scripture
is
the
best
expositor
of
it selfe
,
and
the
plaine
places
of
it
doe
give
light
to
the
places
which
are
obscure
,
and
doe
best
expound
them
.
And
therefore
every
private
person
,
and
the
whole
Church
it selfe
in
matters
doubtfull
must
flie
to
the
Scriptures
themselves
,
as
the
last
Iudge
of
controversies
in
matters
of
faith
and
salvation
.
And
here
he
asked
Master
Fisher
if
he
durst
,
in
this
controversie
,
stand
to
the
judgement
of
the
ancient
Fathers
,
such
as
S.
Augustine
,
Chrysostome
,
and
others
of
that
ranke
.
Mr.
Fisher.
The
Iesuit
answered
,
that
he
knew
the
Fathers
were
on
his
side
,
and
did
altogether
flie
to
the
iudgement
of
the
Church
in
matters
of
faith
,
when
any
controversie
did
arise
.
Mr.
Walker
.
That
(
said
Master
Walker
)
is
most
untrue
,
&
the
contrary
shall
be
shewed
presently
out
of
their
owne
writings
,
set
forth
and
printed
by
Papists
:
then
calling
for
two
volumes
,
the
one
of
S.
Chrysostome
upon
Matthew
,
the
other
S.
Austens
third
Tome
,
both
printed
and
set
forth
by
Papists
,
as
the
inscription
did
shew
,
and
Fisher
could
not
denie
:
First
he
turnes
to
the
Homilie
of
Chrysostome
upon
these
words
of
the
Gospel
,
Math.
24.
(
When
you
see
the
abomination
of
desolation
stand
in
the
holy
place
,
then
let
him
that
is
in
Iudea
flie
to
the
mountaines
)
and
shewes
the
Authors
exposition
,
which
was
to
this
effect
:
That
when
Antichrist
rules
and
beares
sway
in
the
holy
place
the
Church
,
then
all
professors
of
Christian
religion
who
are
in
the
true
Iudaea
,
that
is
,
Christianitie
,
must
flie
only
to
the
Scriptures
,
for
they
are
the
mountaines
upon
which
the
Church
is
founded
;
according
to
that
saying
of
David
,
Her
foundations
are
upon
the
holy
mountains
,
Psal.
87.
1.
And
in
those
daies
when
Antichrist
sits
and
succeeds
in
the
Sea
of
holy
Bishops
,
and
over-rules
all
,
workes
miracles
and
makes
great
shew
of
godlinesse
in
hypocrisie
,
then
the
Church
cannot
be
knowne
by
succession
of
Pastors
,
nor
by
the
miracles
and
holy
life
of
teachers
,
as
in
former
ages
,
but
only
by
the
Scriptures
.
Mr.
Fisher.
The
answer
which
the
Iesuit
gave
to
this
testimonie
▪
was
,
that
this
could
not
be
proved
to
be
the
worke
of
Chrysostome
.
Mr.
Walker
.
More
shame
(
said
Master
Walker
)
it
is
to
your
Doctors
and
Printers
,
who
cite
places
out
of
this
booke
under
the
name
of
Chrysostome
,
and
doe
print
and
set
it
forth
in
his
name
:
but
suppose
it
be
not
the
worke
of
Chrysostome
,
yet
you
cannot
denie
it
to
be
the
worke
of
an
ancient
writer
of
great
antiquitie
,
and
therefore
it
makes
much
against
you
being
approved
in
the
Church
so
many
ages
.
Neither
shall
you
so
escape
;
For
loe
here
in
the
third
booke
of
S.
Augustine
,
De
doctrinâ
Christianâ
,
which
was
never
questioned
,
but
is
generally
received
and
acknowledged
by
all
,
it
is
most
plainly
taught
by
the
learned
Father
,
That
the
best
way
of
expounding
the
Scriptures
is
,
in
words
which
have
many
significations
,
to
observe
the
scope
and
circumstances
of
the
place
,
and
thereby
to
expound
them
;
and
to
expound
obscure
places
by
comparing
them
with
other
plaine
places
of
the
Scriptures
,
which
speake
of
the
same
matter
and
subject
.
Then
hee
shewed
the
words
to
Fisher
,
and
read
them
in
Latine
to
him
,
who
could
not
deny
them
,
but
heard
them
read
with
much
impatiencie
,
as
his
gestures
shewed
;
but
when
he
began
to
expound
them
in
English
to
the
people
there
present
,
the
Iesuit
could
not
containe
himselfe
,
but
said
;
Away
,
this
is
nothing
to
the
purpose
,
we
will
examine
these
things
some
other
time
.
And
when
words
would
not
prevaile
,
hee
reacheth
with
his
hands
to
the
booke
,
and
did
strive
to
shut
it
,
that
the
words
might
not
bee
read
;
notwithstanding
Master
Walker
held
it
by
strong
hand
,
and
read
the
words
,
which
when
the
people
present
did
heare
and
see
,
they
confessed
that
Fisher
was
openly
convinced
;
some
of
them
told
him
that
his
owne
conscience
did
witnesse
against
him
,
and
all
condemned
his
impudencie
joined
with
most
intolerable
and
desperate
obstinacie
.
The
Iesuit
thus
condemned
on
all
sides
,
and
not
able
to
outface
the
matter
any
longer
,
did
make
shew
as
if
he
stood
vpon
coales
,
and
would
gladly
be
gone
,
and
his
Disciple
who
brought
him
thither
,
being
ready
to
helpe
him
at
a
dead
lift
,
when
hee
saw
him
so
confounded
,
calls
vpon
him
to
remember
the
place
which
they
were
to
goe
unto
,
whereupon
they
made
haste
to
depart
,
but
by
much
importunitie
were
staied
,
and
Master
Walker
still
urging
him
to
propound
and
prosecute
one
argument
upon
any
question
of
controversie
before
they
parted
;
he
answered
,
that
now
there
was
no
time
,
but
promised
to
dispute
at
some
other
time
.
At
length
,
out
of
an
earnest
desire
to
draw
one
argument
from
the
Iesuit
,
he
offered
to
him
this
advantage
,
That
if
for
the
iustifying
of
any
point
or
article
of
the
Romish
religion
,
hee
would
make
a
perfect
syllogisme
in
moode
and
figure
,
and
presently
upon
the
deniall
of
any
of
the
premises
,
second
it
with
a
prosyllogisme
,
not
failing
in
forme
,
to
prove
and
conclude
the
proposition
denied
,
the
point
or
article
so
farre
proved
,
should
for
this
one
time
bee
yeelded
to
him
,
and
he
should
haue
libertie
to
make
his
best
advantage
of
it
,
for
the
justifying
of
any
other
point
of
Poperie
which
hee
would
presently
dispute
upon
.
But
all
this
could
not
prevaile
to
wring
one
syllogisme
from
him
,
which
made
the
hearers
thinke
that
hee
had
no
art
nor
skill
to
make
an
argument
:
And
that
they
did
not
thinke
amisse
nor
erre
in
their
opinion
,
appeared
by
that
which
followed
;
for
although
hee
durst
not
undertake
,
during
the
time
of
the
conference
,
to
make
one
syllogisme
,
or
to
propound
an
argument
in
forme
,
yet
at
the
breaking
up
,
when
hee
was
ready
to
depart
,
he
tooke
his
paper
and
wrote
downe
and
gave
to
Master
Walker
,
desiring
him
to
answer
at
leasure
this
argument
which
followeth
,
and
which
is
yet
to
be
shewed
under
his
owne
hand
,
though
perhaps
to
men
of
judgement
it
may
seeme
incredible
that
any
Priest
or
Iesuit
of
his
name
and
note
,
should
be
so
absurd
,
as
to
propound
for
a
syllogisme
such
a
confused
speech
,
without
forme
,
moode
or
figure
:
It
runnes
word
for
word
thus
;
That
Church
which
beginning
with
Christ
,
and
his
Apostles
,
hath
visibly
professed
in
all
ages
that
faith
(
which
Christ
and
his
Apostles
taught
)
without
change
in
any
point
necessarie
to
salvation
,
is
that
Church
whose
judgement
is
to
bee
followed
,
and
no
private
man
must
oppose
his
judgement
against
it
.
There
must
bee
one
such
Church
in
all
ages
.
But
no
such
Protestants
can
be
shewed
.
This
syllogisme
no
doubt
will
appeare
(
as
it
is
in
forme
)
very
absurd
to
all
the
judicious
,
who
shall
heare
of
it
,
or
reade
it
:
And
yet
the
author
thereof
(
if
we
consider
either
the
time
when
,
or
the
manner
how
he
propounded
it
)
was
therein
farre
more
absurd
and
ridiculous
.
For
hee
delivered
it
for
an
argument
of
such
force
and
strength
,
that
it
was
not
to
be
answered
but
at
leasure
,
and
upon
much
studie
and
meditation
.
Yea
,
hee
wrote
it
downe
,
after
that
every
point
and
tittle
therein
,
which
requires
any
answer
,
had
beene
by
the
present
adversarie
Master
Walker
,
there
at
that
time
abundantly
answered
,
to
the
full
satisfaction
of
the
hearers
(
as
they
confessed
.
)
For
after
Master
Walker
had
fairely
offered
,
and
earnestly
urged
that
all
controversies
of
religion
which
were
betweene
them
,
might
be
tried
,
first
,
by
the
originall
Scriptures
;
secondly
,
by
the
sincere
writings
of
the
ancient
Fathers
;
thirdly
,
by
disputation
in
strict
syllogismes
:
and
all
these
were
refused
and
rejected
by
the
Iesuit
,
as
is
before
related
;
They
who
were
present
,
wondering
at
him
,
and
some
of
them
asking
him
,
whether
he
had
any
ground
of
his
faith
and
religion
,
besides
his
owne
sense
and
will
.
Mr.
Fisher.
He
answered
,
that
he
would
bee
judged
by
the
Church
.
For
(
said
hee
)
when
the
Church
hath
judged
,
no
private
man
must
oppose
his
judgement
.
And
this
I
made
a
Protestant
Preacher
confesse
heretofore
in
a
conference
,
and
that
under
his
owne
hand
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Master
Walker
answered
,
that
the
Church
of
God
never
judgeth
(
as
it
is
a
true
Church
)
but
by
the
Word
of
God
in
the
holy
Scriptures
;
and
as
it
is
said
of
a
just
Iudge
in
a
Common-wealth
,
that
hee
is
Lex
loquens
,
so
it
is
said
of
every
true
and
faithfull
Church
,
that
it
is
Scriptura
loquens
,
The
speaking
Scripture
.
Now
against
this
judgement
of
the
Church
no
private
man
must
oppose
his
judgement
,
that
is
,
his
owne
private
opinion
:
for
all
singular
opinions
of
private
men
are
vaine
errors
;
if
they
were
true
they
could
not
bee
singular
,
seeing
all
truths
necessarie
to
salvation
taught
in
the
Scriptures
,
are
common
to
all
the
faithfull
.
Therefore
the
Protestant
Preacher
which
you
named
,
did
grant
nothing
but
the
truth
,
from
which
you
can
picke
no
advantage
to
helpe
you
;
for
you
,
when
you
appeale
to
the
judgement
of
the
Church
,
doe
in
many
things
differ
from
this
truth
.
First
,
by
the
Church
you
understand
no
other
Church
but
the
Church
of
Rome
,
that
whore
of
Babylon
,
your
owne
mother
;
and
your
appealing
to
her
to
be
the
judge
of
your
Religion
,
is
as
if
a
Bastard
should
seeke
to
be
judged
by
the
whore
his
mother
,
whether
hee
be
lawfully
begotten
,
which
he
knowes
shee
will
affirme
and
judge
him
to
bee
for
her
owne
credit
.
Secondly
,
you
rest
on
her
judgement
in
the
maine
principles
of
Religion
,
which
are
already
most
plainly
and
infallibly
determined
in
the
holy
Scriptures
,
and
in
which
no
Christian
truly
sanctified
and
regenerate
,
being
growne
up
to
yeeres
of
discretion
,
and
well
read
in
the
Scriptures
,
needeth
the
judgement
of
any
other
judge
,
besides
the
Spirit
of
God
enlightening
his
heart
.
Thirdly
,
when
you
speake
of
the
judgement
of
the
Church
,
you
understand
such
a
judging
power
and
authoritie
,
as
doth
by
determining
points
of
faith
and
manners
,
make
them
true
and
lawfull
,
whereas
the
true
Church
of
God
hath
no
power
to
coine
new
Scriptures
,
or
to
make
articles
of
faith
,
but
onely
the
gift
of
revealing
,
propounding
and
expounding
of
the
word
of
God
,
and
the
articles
of
Religion
,
which
Christ
hath
commended
to
the
faithfull
.
Fourthly
,
you
require
in
the
true
Church
,
and
attribute
to
your
Church
of
Rome
such
properties
,
as
cannot
bee
found
in
any
particular
Church
on
earth
,
viz.
that
it
hath
continued
in
the
same
place
,
state
and
condition
,
visibly
and
sensibly
professing
from
the
daies
of
Christ
and
his
Apostles
,
the
same
faith
in
all
points
necessarie
to
salvation
;
whereas
by
consent
of
all
stories
,
and
by
manifest
experience
it
is
plaine
,
that
doctrines
which
by
the
Apostles
were
taught
to
the
old
Romane
Christians
,
as
justification
by
faith
without
workes
,
and
by
imputation
of
Christs
righteousnesse
,
Rom.
3.
&
4.
&
5.
are
now
condemned
by
the
present
Romish
Church
.
And
others
which
the
Apostle
did
call
Doctrines
of
Devils
,
as
forbidding
to
marrie
,
and
abstinence
from
meats
,
&c.
1
Tim.
4.
3.
it
urgeth
as
necessarie
to
bee
beleeved
and
obeyed
for
salvation
,
by
some
persons
.
Mr.
Fisher.
I
doe
hold
that
the
Church
is
the
chiefe
judge
of
all
controversies
,
in
the
matters
of
Religion
,
and
that
all
private
persons
must
submit
to
it
,
and
not
seeke
to
the
Scriptures
;
First
,
because
the
Scriptures
are
translated
out
of
the
originall
tongues
before
that
private
men
can
reade
or
understand
them
,
and
the
translations
are
not
to
be
beleeved
nor
received
,
but
by
the
authoritie
and
approbation
of
the
Church
.
Secondly
,
the
Church
gives
such
authoritie
to
the
Scriptures
,
that
without
it
we
are
not
bound
to
beleeve
them
,
nor
receive
them
for
Gods
word
,
according
unto
that
excellent
profession
of
Saint
Augustine
,
Non
crederem
Evangelio
nisi
me
Ecclesiae
moveret
authoritas
;
I
would
not
beleeve
the
Gospell
unlesse
I
were
thereunto
moved
by
the
authoritie
of
the
Church
.
Mr.
Walker
.
And
I
answer
,
that
all
this
which
you
say
makes
no
more
for
the
Church
of
Rome
than
for
any
other
particular
Church
;
for
all
other
particular
Churches
have
as
much
authoritie
in
this
kinde
,
yea
,
more
,
because
shee
is
more
impure
and
corrupt
than
any
of
them
,
and
hath
least
abilitie
or
sinceritie
to
judge
of
the
truth
.
And
undoubtedly
Saint
Austen
meant
not
the
Church
of
Rome
(
of
which
hee
was
no
member
)
but
rather
the
Church
of
Millaine
in
which
he
was
converted
.
Secondly
,
I
say
that
Saint
Austen
in
the
place
by
you
cited
,
speakes
by
way
of
supposition
,
and
not
by
way
of
asseveration
,
as
the
learned
have
well
observed
from
the
scope
and
circumstances
of
the
place
.
Thirdly
,
it
is
true
that
over-weake
Christians
,
who
are
babes
in
Christ
,
the
Church
in
which
they
live
and
are
baptized
,
hath
such
authoritie
(
as
you
speake
of
)
namely
,
to
translate
the
Scriptures
,
and
to
commend
them
for
the
word
of
God
,
and
for
truth
,
and
they
are
bound
to
give
credit
to
it
therein
,
and
not
to
oppose
their
owne
fancies
and
conceits
.
But
when
Christians
are
growne
up
in
grace
and
knowledge
,
and
have
felt
by
their
owne
experience
,
the
effects
and
worke
of
the
Spirit
in
their
soules
wrought
by
reading
and
hearing
of
the
holy
Scriptures
,
and
when
not
onely
by
the
inward
testimonie
of
the
Spirit
,
testifying
that
they
are
the
truth
;
but
also
by
the
inward
heavenly
comforts
and
spirituall
strength
which
they
thereby
and
from
thence
receive
,
doe
sensibly
perceive
that
Gods
hand
is
with
them
,
and
he
doth
in
them
speake
to
their
consciences
:
then
they
need
no
more
the
judgement
of
the
Church
,
nor
of
any
externall
judge
,
to
assure
them
that
the
Scriptures
are
Gods
true
infallible
word
;
for
though
all
professors
in
the
world
,
or
an
Angell
from
heaven
should
preach
and
affirme
the
contrarie
,
they
will
not
assent
unto
them
;
but
rather
count
them
as
Anathema
and
accursed
,
as
the
Apostle
commands
,
Gal.
1.
8.
Mr.
Fisher.
They
who
are
true
Catholikes
,
and
rest
upon
the
judgement
of
the
Church
,
have
as
much
assurance
and
certaintie
of
the
truth
of
the
Scriptures
,
as
is
needfull
,
from
the
testimonie
of
the
Church
;
for
they
build
vpon
the
rocke
against
which
the
gates
of
hell
cannot
prevaile
:
But
you
teach
men
to
build
their
faith
on
their
owne
private
spirit
,
and
you
are
lead
every
one
of
you
by
his
owne
conceit
,
which
is
the
cause
of
so
many
sects
and
schismes
and
severall
opinions
among
you
,
every
one
assuming
to
himselfe
presumptuously
such
an
infallibilitie
of
judgement
in
matters
of
faith
,
as
doth
not
belong
to
any
private
man
,
neither
can
bee
attained
unto
by
the
common
and
vulgar
sort
of
Christians
.
Mr.
Walker
.
You
shew
your selfe
by
this
speech
of
yours
to
be
not
onely
a
meere
carnall
man
,
such
a
one
as
hath
never
felt
the
lively
worke
of
Gods
spirit
in
his
heart
,
nor
tasted
of
the
heavenly
gift
;
but
also
a
brutish
man
corrupting
that
reason
and
darkning
that
light
which
by
nature
is
in
you
;
which
I
will
evidently
shew
divers
waies
.
First
,
you
preferre
the
externall
testimonie
of
the
Church
,
before
the
internal
testimonie
of
Gods
spirit
,
and
make
it
a
more
sure
rocke
to
build
on
,
than
the
Holy
Ghost
who
is
the
spirit
of
truth
.
Secondly
,
you
seeme
to
exempt
and
exclude
the
common
sort
of
Christians
,
and
all
private
men
from
the
communion
of
the
Holy
Ghost
,
and
from
that
gift
and
grace
and
inward
worke
of
the
spirit
,
by
which
they
are
illuminated
to
see
,
and
perswaded
to
beleeve
the
truth
of
Gods
word
every
one
particularly
in
his
owne
soule
and
with
his
owne
heart
,
contrary
to
the
Scriptures
,
which
teach
,
that
the
spirit
of
Jehovah
resting
first
and
originally
on
Christ
the
head
,
Isa.
11.
2.
is
from
him
inspired
and
infused
into
all
and
every
faithfull
member
of
his
body
the
Church
,
Rom.
8.
9.
in
such
sort
,
that
they
are
said
,
by
that
one
spirit
to
be
baptized
into
one
bodie
,
whether
they
be
Iewes
or
Gentiles
,
1
Cor.
12.
13.
and
their
bodies
are
said
to
be
temples
of
the
Holy
Ghost
which
dwelleth
in
them
,
1
Cor.
3.
16.
and
6.
19.
and
by
this
spirit
they
are
said
to
have
the
gift
of
knowledge
and
faith
,
1
Cor.
12.
and
to
be
led
into
all
truth
,
Ioh.
16.
Thirdly
▪
you
call
the
holy
spirit
of
Christ
(
which
we
challenge
in
Christ
by
a
common
right
,
as
common
to
all
the
elect
,
and
which
doth
worke
the
same
faith
and
knowledge
in
every
particular
Christian
)
by
the
name
of
a
private
spirit
;
wherein
you
shew
most
palpable
ignorance
overspreading
your
carnall
eyes
,
and
possessing
your
carnall
heart
.
For
that
spirit
which
flowes
from
that
one
common
fountaine
of
all
goodnesse
,
even
God
the
Father
of
all
,
and
is
sent
forth
in
and
through
the
name
of
that
one
common
Mediatour
and
Saviour
of
the
world
his
Sonne
Iesus
Christ
;
which
is
also
the
same
in
Christ
the
head
,
and
in
the
whole
universall
bodie
of
the
elect
and
faithfull
,
and
doth
worke
in
all
and
every
one
particularly
the
same
common
knowledge
of
the
same
truth
,
and
the
same
common
faith
in
the
same
promised
seed
:
And
all
this
by
no
private
motions
or
inspirations
separated
from
the
word
of
God
;
but
onely
by
that
common
meanes
,
even
the
word
of
Christ
spoken
by
his
mouth
,
and
written
by
his
Prophets
and
Apostles
in
the
Scriptures
of
the
Old
and
New
Testament
;
this
spirit
can
in
no
case
be
called
a
private
spirit
.
For
it
is
the
propertie
of
the
Holy
Ghost
,
the
true
Comforter
,
to
come
from
the
Father
in
the
Sonnes
name
,
and
to
teach
the
truth
,
and
worke
faith
by
the
common
rule
and
meanes
of
the
Scriptures
,
and
not
to
speake
of
himselfe
new
things
which
Christ
had
not
spoken
before
;
but
onely
to
speake
what
he
hath
heard
,
and
so
to
receive
of
Christs
,
and
to
give
to
us
;
and
to
lead
us
into
all
truth
by
calling
to
our
mindes
the
word
spoken
by
Christ
and
recorded
in
the
Scriptures
,
and
by
writing
it
in
our
hearts
,
as
our
Saviour
plainly
testifieth
,
Ioh.
16.
13
,
14.
This
spirit
which
is
discerned
by
these
properties
we
challenge
to
our selves
,
by
the
common
right
of
the
elect
in
Christ
,
and
he
it
is
who
doth
testifie
to
our
spirits
,
that
the
holy
Scriptures
are
the
true
infallible
word
,
and
doth
transforme
our
soules
into
the
obedience
of
them
,
and
doth
worke
in
us
that
same
faith
by
which
all
the
Saints
have
beene
justified
and
saved
from
the
beginning
of
the
world
.
But
now
as
I
have
shewed
you
,
which
is
the
true
spirit
of
God
common
to
all
the
elect
and
faithfull
,
and
that
by
his
properties
observed
from
the
words
of
Christ
our
Saviour
,
and
also
that
the
spirit
of
Protestants
is
that
spirit
:
So
I
demand
of
you
,
whether
you
Papists
have
any
such
spirit
working
in
you
that
faith
and
knowledge
of
the
Scriptures
,
which
you
build
on
the
testimonie
and
authoritie
of
the
Church
.
If
you
say
that
you
have
no
such
spirit
,
but
are
led
every
one
by
his
owne
sense
;
then
are
you
carnall
and
sensuall
men
,
not
spirituall
by
your
owne
conf●ssion
:
If
you
say
that
you
have
the
spirit
moving
every
one
of
you
particularly
to
rest
on
the
judgement
of
the
Church
of
Rome
,
and
causing
you
to
beleeve
that
the
Pope
cannot
erre
,
and
that
the
Scriptures
which
he
doth
commend
unto
you
,
are
therefore
Gods
word
,
then
I
would
know
of
you
,
why
that
spirit
so
resting
and
working
in
every
particular
Papist
should
not
be
esteemed
a
private
spirit
,
as
well
as
that
which
works
in
every
Protestant
.
Mr.
Fisher.
Your
spirit
is
a
private
spirit
,
because
he
leads
every
one
of
you
into
severall
opinions
and
private
interpretations
of
Scripture
,
which
have
never
beene
received
in
the
Church
,
nor
commonly
acknowledged
of
the
godly
Fathers
and
Doctors
.
Mr.
Walker
.
If
you
have
no
more
to
say
for
your selfe
than
this
,
I
shall
easily
convince
you
by
your
owne
mouth
,
and
prove
from
your
owne
words
,
that
the
spirit
of
Papists
(
not
the
spirit
of
Protestants
)
is
indeed
a
private
spirit
.
For
first
our
spirit
perswades
us
to
receive
for
Gods
infallible
word
no
other
Scriptures
,
but
those
which
by
the
common
consent
of
all
the
ancient
Fathers
,
and
of
all
sorts
of
Christians
,
even
of
you
Papists
your selves
,
are
held
for
Canonicall
:
but
you
Romanists
receive
divers
Scriptures
for
Canonicali
,
which
by
S.
Hierome
and
other
Ancients
,
and
by
all
the
reformed
Churches
are
and
have
beene
censured
for
Apocrypha
;
and
so
you
are
in
this
more
private
in
your
opinion
than
we
.
Secondly
,
we
Protestants
build
upon
no
other
rock
but
that
which
is
common
to
all
the
faithfull
from
the
beginning
,
even
God
himselfe
,
who
is
prima
veritas
,
the
first
truth
,
and
upon
his
word
of
promise
made
in
Christ
the
promised
seed
;
and
we
are
founded
on
the
Prophets
and
Apostles
,
who
are
the
common
foundation
both
to
all
the
fathers
in
the
old
Testament
,
and
to
all
Christians
in
the
time
of
the
Gospell
.
But
you
build
upon
a
new
rocke
,
even
the
Pope
of
Rome
,
whom
yee
call
the
universall
Bishop
sitting
in
Peters
chaire
,
a
foundation
which
all
the
faithfull
forefathers
before
the
comming
of
Christ
were
ignorant
of
,
and
never
heard
or
dreamed
.
Neither
did
the
first
Christians
in
the
primitive
Church
for
divers
hundred
of
yeeres
after
Christ
acknowledge
any
such
name
or
title
;
but
even
Gregorie
the
Great
,
a
Bishop
of
Rome
,
who
lived
560.
yeeres
after
Christ
,
condemned
it
as
a
note
of
Antichrist
and
his
forerunner
,
as
by
his
epistles
is
manifest
.
Thirdly
,
though
divers
sects
of
Anabaptists
,
Familists
,
and
Enthusiasts
,
men
of
fanaticall
spirits
,
have
growne
up
like
tares
in
the
field
of
the
reformed
Churches
,
who
follow
their
owne
private
fancies
,
imaginations
,
and
divers
inspirations
of
Satan
,
which
have
no
warrant
from
the
Scriptures
,
but
are
contrary
to
the
written
word
:
yet
they
are
not
of
us
,
we
renounce
their
society
,
and
expell
them
out
of
our
Churches
,
and
say
of
them
as
the
Apostle
did
,
1
Ioh.
2.
19.
They
went
out
from
us
,
but
they
were
not
of
us
.
And
as
for
the
interpretations
of
some
obscure
Scriptures
,
which
Luther
,
Calvin
,
and
other
learned
men
have
lately
found
out
,
and
doe
finde
out
daily
,
which
were
not
knowne
of
old
nor
commonly
received
;
we
embrace
them
not
for
novelty
,
nor
because
they
are
singular
,
nor
for
the
authoritie
of
the
expositors
themselves
;
but
because
we
finde
them
to
be
agreeable
to
the
originall
text
,
and
to
other
plaine
places
of
the
same
Scriptures
,
and
to
containe
the
old
and
common
doctrine
of
Christ
,
and
his
Apostles
and
Prophets
,
which
hath
beene
beleeved
and
embraced
in
all
ages
of
all
true
Christians
:
But
a
great
number
of
the
articles
of
the
Romish
religion
concerning
Image-worship
,
Canonization
of
Saints
,
Purgatorie
,
Pardons
,
Indulgences
,
Transubstantiation
,
Massing
,
sacrificing
for
the
dead
,
and
such
like
,
they
are
builded
vpon
private
visions
,
apparitions
,
dreames
,
imaginations
and
fancies
of
Friers
,
and
upon
singular
inspirations
of
Monks
,
and
other
doating
persons
slavishly
devoted
to
your
superstitions
,
so
that
the
Popish
spirit
is
indeed
the
same
with
the
private
fanaticall
spirit
of
Anabaptists
and
Enthusiasts
,
as
plaine
reason
and
experience
doe
shew
.
Mr.
Fisher.
The
Iesuit
taking
little
pleasure
in
the
hearing
of
these
things
,
made
great
shew
of
a
desire
to
breake
off
,
and
to
be
gone
,
onely
he
put
on
a
bold
and
impudent
face
to
deride
the
opinion
of
Protestants
concerning
the
gift
of
the
spirit
;
by
which
particular
Christians
are
enabled
to
know
and
beleeve
the
Scriptures
,
and
to
be
fully
perswaded
and
assured
of
the
truth
and
true
meaning
of
them
:
And
as
for
you
(
saith
he
to
Master
Walker
)
it
is
well
for
you
that
you
have
such
an
infallible
spirit
which
doth
enable
you
to
discerne
the
word
of
God
,
and
doth
more
assure
you
of
the
truth
thereof
,
than
the
publike
testimonie
of
the
Church
.
But
pardon
us
if
we
hold
it
doubtfull
,
seeing
we
have
no
more
but
your
owne
word
for
it
.
Mr.
Walker
.
Yea
and
I
will
have
your
word
professing
the
same
of
your selfe
also
,
or
else
I
will
make
you
appeare
to
all
here
present
,
to
be
void
of
all
true
Christianitie
.
First
,
you
shall
see
that
all
your
scoffs
shall
not
make
me
ashamed
to
professe
and
to
proclaime
the
grace
and
gift
which
God
hath
given
me
for
the
knowledge
of
his
word
,
and
how
I
come
to
know
it
by
the
worke
of
his
spirit
.
Secondly
,
I
will
urge
you
upon
your
conscience
,
to
answer
me
whether
you
have
experience
and
feeling
of
the
same
grace
in
you
.
That
which
I
can
with
a
good
conscience
testifie
of
my selfe
,
I
hold
to
be
no
singular
gift
,
but
a
grace
common
to
all
true
Christians
,
and
it
is
this
:
First
,
I
confesse
that
I
was
borne
of
Christian
parents
,
and
my
father
and
mother
who
tenderly
loved
me
,
and
were
also
of
me
dearely
beloved
,
did
teach
me
the
first
principles
of
religion
from
my
infancie
,
and
did
tell
me
that
the
holy
Scriptures
contained
in
that
Bible
which
was
read
and
expounded
in
our
Church
were
the
true
word
of
God
;
I
being
not
able
to
judge
of
it
my selfe
,
beleeved
it
so
to
be
upon
their
word
and
authoritie
for
the
reverent
respect
and
esteeme
which
I
had
of
them
.
Afterwards
they
caused
me
to
frequent
the
Church
,
and
to
heare
that
word
read
and
expounded
by
learned
Preachers
,
and
told
me
that
I
ought
to
beleeve
what
I
heard
out
of
it
preached
in
the
Church
;
and
so
I
did
:
for
I
beleeved
the
Preachers
publishing
that
word
,
in
so
much
that
partly
by
their
exhortations
,
and
partly
out
of
a
care
which
I
had
of
my
soules
health
,
and
in
a
desire
of
Gods
favour
and
blessings
which
were
thereunto
promised
,
I
did
even
from
my
youth
give
my
minde
to
reade
and
learne
the
Scriptures
.
Howsoever
I
must
confesse
,
that
at
the
first
and
in
my
childish
yeeres
,
I
did
finde
but
little
savour
&
sweetnesse
in
the
most
profitable
parts
of
the
Scriptures
;
such
as
Davids
Psalmes
,
Salomons
Proverbs
,
the
bookes
of
the
Prophets
,
the
Epistles
of
the
Apostles
,
and
such
like
;
yea
though
I
beleeved
that
they
were
Gods
word
:
yet
by
reason
of
my
naturall
corruption
,
I
did
take
more
pleasure
and
delight
in
Poeticall
fables
and
feigned
histories
,
which
did
feed
my
corruption
,
and
were
a
kinde
of
fuell
to
my
sinfull
lusts
and
vanities
.
Neverthelesse
whether
it
was
mine
owne
conscience
urging
me
,
or
the
spirit
of
God
which
moved
me
,
I
cannot
certainly
tell
;
but
sure
I
am
,
that
still
I
did
upon
the
testimonie
and
authoritie
of
my
Parents
and
Teachers
,
reverence
the
Scriptures
as
Gods
word
,
and
force
my selfe
to
reade
them
contrary
to
my
rebellious
nature
;
and
at
length
when
I
came
to
more
ripe
yeeres
:
I
found
that
the
word
which
was
most
opposite
and
distastfull
to
my
sinfu●l
corruption
,
did
worke
upon
me
most
strongly
and
effectually
,
which
is
an
infallible
token
of
Gods
hand
in
it
,
and
a
sure
signe
of
the
divine
power
and
supernaturall
excellencie
thereof
,
I
felt
the
promises
of
the
Gospell
,
and
the
words
of
the
Prophets
and
Apostles
which
before
had
little
relish
,
begin
by
Gods
grace
to
be
most
sweet
and
comfortable
in
all
crosses
and
afflictions
,
and
to
be
most
profitable
by
strengthning
me
with
the
spirit
of
prayer
and
faith
against
temptations
,
by
mortifying
my
fleshly
corruptions
,
and
by
reforming
my
life
;
so
that
I
began
to
rejoyce
in
the
Scriptures
,
more
than
in
any
earthly
treasures
,
and
did
devote
my selfe
to
the
studie
of
them
;
and
now
partly
upon
the
testimonie
of
Gods
spirit
witnessing
inwardly
with
my
spirit
,
and
partly
upon
the
sense
and
experience
which
I
have
of
the
power
of
them
in
overcomming
my
naturall
corruptions
,
as
it
were
against
my
will
;
and
partly
upon
that
particular
sight
and
knowledge
which
I
have
of
the
glory
and
divine
Majestie
shining
in
them
,
I
am
so
confident
and
assured
,
that
they
are
Gods
most
holy
and
infallible
word
,
that
my
conscience
tels
me
,
I
had
rather
forgoe
all
the
world
,
and
my
dearest
bloud
and
bodily
life
,
than
denie
the
truth
of
them
.
Yea
if
the
Church
and
Teachers
which
perswaded
me
first
to
receive
them
for
Gods
word
,
should
fall
away
by
apostasie
,
forsweare
and
denie
them
,
or
any
part
of
them
;
or
if
any
Angell
from
heaven
should
teach
the
contrary
,
I
would
count
them
accursed
,
as
the
Apostle
enjoines
me
,
Gal.
1.
8.
And
now
I
can
say
to
the
Church
and
my
Teachers
,
as
the
Samaritans
did
to
the
woman
who
brought
them
to
Christ
:
Loe
I
have
heretofore
beleeved
the
Scriptures
to
be
Gods
word
upon
your
testimonie
and
authoritie
;
but
now
I
see
with
mine
owne
eyes
,
I
have
the
inward
testimonie
of
Gods
spirit
,
and
feele
by
powerfull
effects
and
by
experience
in
my selfe
▪
that
these
Scriptures
are
Gods
holy
word
,
and
the
power
of
God
to
salvation
.
This
(
I
freely
confesse
)
is
my
knowledge
and
perswasion
of
Gods
word
,
which
by
these
degrees
I
have
attained
unto
.
And
I
daily
have
experience
and
evident
signes
of
the
same
grace
in
all
other
Christians
,
with
whom
I
doe
converse
familiarly
.
Now
therefore
in
the
second
place
,
I
charge
you
before
God
and
upon
your
conscience
to
answer
directly
and
plainly
before
this
people
here
present
,
whether
you
have
experience
of
the
same
grace
in
you
,
and
whether
you
have
by
these
degrees
o●
any
of
them
attained
to
this
full
assurance
of
knowledge
and
understanding
of
the
Scriptures
?
Mr.
Fisher.
What
is
that
to
you
,
whether
I
have
or
have
not
?
Or
what
if
I
hold
it
needlesse
to
assume
so
much
unto
my selfe
?
Mr.
Walker
.
It
is
very
necessarie
that
you
should
doe
either
the
one
or
the
other
.
And
whether
you
confesse
or
denie
,
you
are
taken
and
ensnared
.
If
you
say
that
you
have
experience
of
this
grace
in
you
,
and
of
this
gift
and
testimonie
of
the
spirit
,
then
you
are
plainly
convinced
by
your
owne
mouth
of
wilfull
blasphemy
against
the
Holy
Ghost
,
in
that
you
have
denied
,
contradicted
,
derided
,
and
scoffed
at
that
worke
of
his
in
the
Saints
of
God
,
of
which
worke
you
have
experience
in
your
owne
soule
.
But
if
you
confesse
that
you
never
felt
this
order
and
worke
of
grace
in
you
,
and
that
your
faith
is
nothing
but
an
implicit
beleeving
of
the
Scriptures
upon
the
Churches
testimonie
and
authoritie
,
without
any
sense
or
experience
of
the
power
and
vertue
thereof
in
your
soule
,
and
that
you
blindly
and
desperatly
cast
your selfe
on
the
Church
,
without
any
particular
discerning
of
the
truth
of
the
Scriptures
,
or
any
inward
testimonie
of
the
spirit
;
then
it
is
certaine
(
to
say
the
best
)
that
you
are
yet
a
babe
in
Christianitie
,
and
Christ
Iesus
is
not
yet
formed
in
you
.
Yea
I
feare
that
you
are
worse
than
so
:
for
(
if
after
so
many
yeeres
studie
of
Divinitie
,
and
so
long
continuance
in
the
publike
calling
of
a
Priest
,
and
teacher
of
others
)
you
be
found
not
onely
destitute
and
void
of
this
necessarie
grace
of
a
Christian
;
but
also
an
opposer
and
gainesayer
of
it
,
and
a
scorner
of
such
as
professe
it
;
we
cannot
but
deeme
you
a
very
Atheist
and
sonne
of
Belial
,
in
whom
is
verified
,
that
which
S.
Paul
foretold
of
the
slaves
of
Antichrist
,
2
Thess.
2.
12.
viz.
That
God
should
send
them
strong
delusions
,
that
they
should
beleeve
lies
;
and
be
damned
,
not
beleeving
the
truth
,
but
having
pleasure
in
unrighteousnesse
.
Also
that
which
is
testified
by
S.
Iude
of
such
reprobates
,
who
are
of
old
ordained
to
condemnation
,
viz.
That
they
speake
evill
of
those
things
which
they
know
not
,
and
whatsoever
things
they
know
naturally
,
as
beasts
which
are
without
reason
in
those
things
they
corrupt
themselves
,
and
that
they
are
corrupt
trees
,
and
without
fruit
,
twise
dead
and
plucked
up
by
the
roots
,
and
raging
waves
of
the
sea
foaming
out
their
owne
shame
,
and
wandring
starres
to
whom
is
reserved
the
blacknesse
of
darknesse
for
ever
.
Mr.
Fisher
You
are
very
sharpe
and
uncharitable
in
your
judgement
;
but
it
is
no
matter
what
you
say
;
neither
will
I
argue
more
with
you
at
this
present
,
for
it
is
time
for
us
to
depart
.
Mr.
Walker
.
I
doe
not
judge
you
but
by
your
owne
mouth
,
and
by
the
infallible
word
of
God
,
and
from
henceforth
I
leave
you
to
the
judgement
of
God
,
and
to
the
censure
of
all
here
present
,
who
have
heard
you
at
this
time
;
onely
thus
much
I
must
tell
you
,
that
I
doe
manifestly
discerne
by
your
cariage
,
speeches
,
and
behaviour
,
your
evill
conscience
,
and
that
you
doe
dolo
malo
wilfully
oppose
the
truth
,
and
factiously
cleave
to
the
Romish
religion
.
For
all
here
present
have
seene
that
you
refuse
,
and
are
afraid
to
be
tried
either
by
Scriptures
,
or
Fathers
,
or
disputation
,
and
reason
,
or
by
the
spirit
of
God
,
which
you
would
never
doe
so
openly
to
your
shame
,
if
your
conscience
did
not
tell
you
,
that
they
are
all
against
you
in
the
speciall
articles
of
your
religion
wherein
you
dissent
from
us
.
To
this
divers
of
them
who
were
present
gave
their
assent
,
and
professed
that
they
were
exceedingly
deceived
in
their
opinion
of
Fisher
,
wondering
that
one
so
vaine
and
ridiculous
,
as
he
shewed
himselfe
,
should
dare
to
undertake
the
defence
of
his
religion
face
to
face
against
any
learned
man
,
before
any
understanding
hearers
;
or
that
any
should
be
either
so
foolish
and
blinde
,
as
to
be
seduced
by
him
,
or
so
impudent
and
void
of
iudgement
,
as
to
give
him
the
name
and
report
of
a
learned
man
,
or
to
number
him
among
subtle
disputants
.
And
one
among
the
rest
calling
unto
the
Iesuit
,
asked
him
very
earnestly
,
whether
he
were
indeed
that
Fisher
the
Iesuit
who
disputed
with
Doctor
White
before
the
King
,
which
when
he
acknowledged
;
Surely
(
said
the
man
)
I
should
never
have
beleeved
it
if
any
other
had
told
me
so
;
for
it
could
never
have
sunke
into
my
minde
,
that
any
of
your
name
and
report
should
be
so
absurd
and
ridiculous
,
as
you
have
here
shewed
your selfe
.
For
I
see
that
neither
the
Originall
Scriptures
,
nor
your
owne
translation
of
them
,
nor
the
Fathers
,
nor
disputation
and
argument
are
of
any
account
with
you
.
Doe
you
thinke
that
any
man
will
be
so
foolish
,
as
to
beleeve
you
,
who
have
no
ground
but
your
owne
word
and
will
?
But
now
I
am
glad
that
you
have
given
me
iust
occasion
,
as
to
abhorre
your
religion
more
than
ever
before
,
and
to
esteeme
you
a
vaine
wrangler
of
no
judgement
:
so
also
to
stop
the
mouth
of
some
of
my
kinred
,
who
are
of
your
religion
,
and
great
admirers
of
your
person
,
and
praisers
of
your
learning
,
by
reporting
and
testifying
unto
them
concerning
you
,
what
I
have
seene
with
mine
eyes
,
and
heard
with
mine
eares
this
day
.
But
the
thing
which
did
most
astonish
the
beholders
was
,
the
desperate
behaviour
of
the
Popish
Novice
,
the
procurer
of
this
meeting
,
who
did
in
the
time
of
this
conference
most
lively
expresse
the
slavish
nature
of
a
seduced
Romane
Catholike
,
to
whom
God
hath
sent
strong
delusion
,
to
cleave
to
lies
,
and
to
reject
the
truth
.
For
he
did
most
manifestly
shew
,
(
as
the
standers
by
well
observed
)
that
he
came
with
a
full
purpose
and
resolution
,
and
an
heart
and
forehead
hardned
to
scoffe
,
deride
and
gainesay
whatsoever
was
said
against
the
minde
of
his
ghostly
father
Fisher
the
Iesuit
,
whether
good
or
bad
;
and
to
extoll
and
admire
with
most
intemperate
noise
and
clamour
,
whatsoever
Fisher
did
averre
,
without
regard
of
right
or
wrong
,
truth
or
falshood
.
In
so
much
,
that
one
time
when
Master
Walker
had
spoken
something
which
seemed
to
give
content
to
the
hearers
,
and
they
openly
applauded
,
and
the
Novice
(
as
his
manner
was
)
scoffing
at
the
speech
,
said
to
his
younger
brother
,
and
others
neere
unto
him
,
that
he
never
heard
a
more
absurd
and
foolish
reason
,
and
that
any
childe
might
answer
it
:
Master
Walker
over-hearing
,
urged
him
to
tell
wherein
the
absurditie
and
foolishnesse
of
his
reason
did
consist
,
and
what
it
was
:
But
he
was
not
able
to
repeat
one
word
,
so
that
all
the
hearers
laughed
,
and
condemned
him
for
an
headstrong
foole
,
in
speaking
evill
of
that
,
which
he
neither
knew
,
nor
cared
to
understand
.
But
all
this
could
not
bridle
his
tongue
,
nor
make
his
impudent
face
ashamed
.
For
a
little
after
,
when
Master
Fisher
the
Iesuit
was
speaking
something
,
which
Master
Walker
seemed
to
sleight
,
and
to
smile
at
,
the
popish
Novice
spake
out
in
a
passion
more
loud
than
ordinary
to
his
brothers
,
and
others
about
him
:
Loe
there
is
an
argument
to
the
purpose
,
which
I
warrant
you
can
never
be
answered
by
the
best
of
your
Ministers
;
let
him
answer
it
if
he
can
.
Which
Master
Walker
noting
,
turned
once
more
to
the
Novice
,
and
desired
him
to
repeat
that
strong
argument
,
or
if
he
could
not
doe
that
,
to
tell
the
meaning
or
the
matter
of
it
;
but
hee
was
not
able
to
repeat
a
word
,
nor
to
tell
what
was
the
matter
in
hand
,
which
made
the
beholders
astonished
at
his
desperate
impudencie
and
wilfull
blindnesse
;
in
so
much
that
some
sharply
rebuked
him
to
his
face
,
others
blamed
Fisher
for
nuzling
him
up
,
and
suffering
him
to
goe
on
in
such
notorious
impudencie
and
wilfull
blindnesse
,
and
divers
did
not
sticke
to
say
,
that
they
never
saw
nor
heard
of
such
a
dangerous
example
,
and
that
undoubtedly
they
perceived
this
Novice
to
be
so
devillishly
addicted
and
devoted
to
his
Master
Fisher
,
that
if
Fisher
would
blaspheme
the
name
of
Iesus
Christ
,
this
Novice
would
iustifie
his
blasphemie
,
and
maintaine
it
unto
death
.
And
thus
the
conference
ended
.
But
at
the
breaking
up
,
the
Iesuit
gave
in
writing
to
be
answered
at
leysure
,
the
confused
speech
before
mentioned
.
And
Master
Walker
wrote
downe
an
argument
,
which
he
gave
to
him
to
be
considered
and
directly
answered
in
writing
upon
mature
deliberation
.
The
summe
of
the
Argument
was
this
.
-
That
Church
which
hath
the
chiefe
properties
of
the
great
whore
of
Babylon
,
mentioned
Revel.
17.
is
undoubtedly
that
great
whore
,
and
the
Church
of
Antichrist
.
-
The
present
Church
of
Rome
now
subject
to
the
Pope
,
hath
those
properties
,
-
ergo
it
is
the
great
whore
.
The
assumption
confirmed
.
These
following
are
the
chiefe
properties
of
the
great
whore
.
First
,
shee
must
bee
such
a
Church
as
being
once
most
famous
and
renowned
over
all
the
faithfull
Spouse
of
Christ
,
hath
by
degrees
fallen
away
into
spirituall
whordome
,
that
is
,
Idolatrie
and
Image-worship
:
for
the
Scriptures
doe
never
stile
by
the
name
of
whore
any
Citie
or
Church
,
but
such
as
thus
fall
away
.
Secondly
,
shee
must
still
hold
her
visible
succession
of
Bishops
in
the
same
place
and
Sea
,
and
professe
her selfe
the
chiefe
spouse
of
Christ
,
while
she
commits
Idolatrie
in
the
Churches
of
Christ
,
and
mingles
it
with
his
outward
and
verball
worship
,
and
while
hee
doth
by
persecution
sacrifice
to
her
God
Molech
,
such
children
,
as
she
,
by
meanes
of
the
Scriptures
and
some
parts
of
his
worship
,
which
shee
still
after
a
sort
retaineth
,
hath
begotten
and
borne
to
Christ
.
Thirdly
,
shee
must
bee
the
mother
of
whoredomes
,
by
assuming
to
her selfe
the
power
to
canonize
for
Saints
whom
she
pleaseth
,
and
to
authorize
the
worship
of
them
and
their
Images
:
and
by
obtruding
upon
the
Churches
of
other
nations
,
Cities
and
Countries
her
formes
of
idolatrous
worship
.
Now
there
is
no
Church
or
Citie
in
the
world
which
hath
,
or
can
have
these
properties
,
but
onely
the
present
Church
and
Sea
of
Rome
.
1.
For
she
was
for
faith
renowned
in
all
the
world
,
as
Saint
Paul
,
Rom.
1.
and
many
of
the
ancient
Fathers
in
their
writings
doe
shew
.
2.
And
she
now
continuing
her
visible
succession
of
Bishops
ever
since
the
Apostles
,
in
the
same
place
and
Sea
,
is
become
a
worshipper
of
Images
,
which
is
Idolatrie
,
as
all
the
world
may
see
and
observe
.
3.
And
though
shee
doth
challenge
to
her selfe
the
authoritie
to
canonize
Saints
,
and
to
authorize
all
Image-worship
,
going
a
whoring
from
Christ
her
first
love
,
after
his
pretended
Vicar
the
Pope
,
and
his
superstitions
,
and
obtruding
upon
all
nations
her
abominations
:
yet
she
still
glories
in
the
name
of
the
chiefe
spouse
of
Christ
,
and
under
shew
and
colour
of
zeale
and
love
to
him
,
doth
persecute
and
murder
such
godly
men
as
(
being
converted
to
Christ
by
those
meanes
of
Christianitie
which
shee
still
retaineth
)
doe
reprove
and
rebuke
her
for
Idolatrie
,
superstition
,
and
other
vices
;
as
Ierusalem
did
when
shee
was
a
great
spirituall
whore
and
adultresse
,
Ezech.
16.
Therefore
the
present
Church
of
Rome
,
now
subject
to
the
Pope
,
hath
the
chiefe
properties
of
the
great
whore
of
Babylon
,
and
by
consequence
is
that
great
Babylonish
whore
,
and
the
Church
of
Antichrist
:
This
argument
being
to
this
effect
delivered
in
writing
to
the
Iesuit
,
hee
departed
,
and
hath
not
yet
returned
an
answer
.
Onely
hee
sent
within
a
few
daies
after
to
Master
Walker
,
by
his
disciple
above
mentioned
,
certaine
propositions
which
hee
commonly
carries
about
him
as
the
chiefe
weapons
of
his
warfare
,
and
by
which
he
doth
provoke
and
challenge
all
Protestant
Divines
with
whom
hee
doth
meet
in
any
place
.
FINIS
.