An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...

REASONS OF CAMPIANS CHALLENGE RENDRED AND GIVEN TO THE Students of the English Vniuersities .

EDMVND CAMPIAN .

My principall reasons are ten , 1. Holy Scriptures . 2. True meaning of the holie Scriptures . 3. Nature of the Church . 4. Generall Councels . 5. Fathers . 6. Sure ground of the Fathers . 7. Historie . 8. Paradoxes of the Aduersaries . 9. Sophismes of the Aduersaries . 10. All manner of witnesses .

The first reason , which is holy Scriptures .

WHereas there are many things . which euidently open the Aduersaries mistrust in the cause , yet nothing so much , as the maiestie of Gods bookes , by them most filthilie * * It is false : for we haue corrupted no part of the Bible . corrupted . For they , who after that they haue reiected the voyces and testimonies of all other witnesses , and are neuerthelesse , driuen to so narrow shifts , that they cannot defend their cause to be good , except they lay violent hands vpon the holy Scriptures also , assuredly shew themselues to be in great distresse , and all other helps failing and fainting , must now trie the last and vttermost shift . What cause had the Manachies to cancel a a Aug. lib. 28. contra Faust . cap. 2 & de vtilit . cre . c. 3. S. Matthewes Gospell , and the Acts of the Apostles ? Desperation : for they were tormented with these bookes , both because they had denied Christ to be b b Matth. 1. borne of a Virgin , and also had falsely affirmed , that then the holy c c Act. 2. Ghost came first downe from heauen amongst Christians , when their d d Manes . Paraclete , that most wicked Persian leapt out . What made the e e Jren. lib. 1. cap. 26. Ebionits to abandon all S. Paules Epistles ? De●peration : for so long as these kept their authoritie , Circumcision is abolished , which they had brought backe againe . What enforced f f Praefat in Epist. Iac. vide etiam lib. de capt . Babyl . & centur. 2. Luther that most wicked Apostata , to call the Epistle of S. Iames , * * This is most false , for Luther greatly approueth of this Epistle , neither euer did he call it a contentious , swelling , barren , or strawne Epistle . contentious , proud , barren , rushy , and iudge it to be vnworthy an Apostolike spirit ? Desperation : g g Iaco. ca. 2. For by this Epistle that miserable caitife affirming our iustification to be by faith * * This is false : for the place maketh nothing at all against Iustification by faith only . only , is vtterly confuted & confounded what incensed h h Bibl. Geneu . Luthers whelpes , on a suddaine to put out of the * * It is false , th●se bookes were neuer accounted part of the true Canon . true Canon of Scripture , Tobias , Ecclesiasticus , & the two bookes of the Macchabees ; & in despight of them many other i i Of the old Testament . bookes , vnto which they picked the like quarrell ? Desperation : for by these heauenly k k Tob. 12. Eccles. 15. 1. Macha . 12 1. Machab. 15. Oracles they be expresly conuinced , as often as they dispute against the defence of Angels , as often as they dispute against Free-will , as often as they dispute against praying for the dead , as often as they dispute against praying to Saints . Is it so indeed ? Is there such frowardnes , is there such presumption amongst men ? when they had trodden vnder foot the authority of the Churches , Councels * Seas , Fathers , Martyrs , Emperours , People , Lawes , Vniuersities , Histories , all Monuments of Antiquitie & holines ; & had openly proclamed , that they would haue all controuersies decided by the written word of God only ; would they then haue dismembred the very same word , which only remained , by cutting out of the whole body , so many , so good , and so excellent partes therof . For the Caluinists haue cut out of the old Testament l l Baruch . Tob. Iudith . Sapient . Eccles. Macha . d●o . seauen whole bookes , besides certaine other small peeces , which I let passe vnspoken of The Lutherans likewise haue cut off S. Iames Epist & for spight of it , m m Epistol. ad Hebr. Epist Jud. Epist. 2. Pet. Ep. 2 & 3. Iohannis . it a censent Luth. in praefat. Mag. Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap 4. Kem. in exam. con. Tri. Ses. 4. De doct. chr. lib. 2. cap. 8. Ses. 4. vide Mel. Can. lib. 2. de Loc. Theol. cap. 9.10.11 . de praedest . Sanct. cap. 14. fiue others , which some where els also were once called in question . To these also , do the late Geneuans adde the booke of Hester , & a great part of the third chapter , & al the two last chapters of Daniel , which the Anabaptists their school-fellowes had a little before condemned , & laughed to scorne ; But how much more modest lie delt S. Austine , who making a Catologue of the books of holy Scriptures , tooke for his rule neither the Hebrew Alphabet , as the Iewes do , nor yet his owne priuate spirit , as Heretikes vse to do ; but that spirit wherewith Christ quickneth the whole body of his Church , which Church being not Lady ( as Heretickes do cauil ) but only keeper of this gage , hath by old * * This is false , for the Laodicene Councel doth so number the bookes of the Scriptures as we do , and not as the Councell of Trent doth . auncient Councels , openly challenged this whole and entire treasure of the bookes of Scripture , which the late Councell of Trent also hath embraced ? The self-same S. Augustine , intreating particularly of one parcell of Scripture , could not perswade himselfe , that the booke of Wisdome , should by any mans rashnes , or secret false suggestion , be thrust out of the Canon of Scripture , which euen in his time , by iudgement of the Church , processe of time , testimonie af auncient writers , and instruction of faithfull men , had kept his authoritie , as a sound and Canonicall booke ; what would he say if he were now liuing vpon the earth againe , and should see the Lutherans and Caluinists to be Bible makers , who with their sine and smooth stile , haue raced both the old and new Testament , and put out of the Canon of holy Scriptures , not only the booke of Wisdome , but many bookes more also ? so that , that which shall not be vttered out of their shops , must by their brain-sicke decree be reiected as a thing most rude and loath some . They that are driuen to this horrible and detestable shift , though their Armes be blazed neuer so farre abroad , by their owne disciples , though they buy and sel● benefices , though in their Sermons , they cry out against Catholikes , though they procure them the sword , racke . and gallowes , yet are they ouercome , naught set by , horrible in mens sight , and quite ouerthrowne . For as much as the taking vpon them the authoritie of Censorors and sitting as honorable Iudges , do dash out at their pleasure such holy Scriptures , as they found would not serue their turne ; is there any body though neuer so simple , which can feare these sub●tle sleights of the Aduersaries , who , assoone as they should enter within your assemiblie that are learned men , and flie vnto such their vsuall snifts , as it were vnto their familiar spirit , should , though not with reproach full words , yet at the least with trampling of your feet be thrust out of your schooles ? I would demaund of them , ( for example sake ) b● what authoritie they mayme and robbe the corpes of the Bible ? They answere they doe not cut out any true Canonicall Scriptures but cull out only such as are not Canonicall , that haue been forsted into the Bible , and are indeed but counterfeits . Who shall be iudge ? the * * Campian refuseth the holy Ghost as Iudge . holy Ghost ; for this very answere doth o o 1. Lib. Inst. cap. 7. Caluin giue , thereby to escape the iudgement of the Church , by whose authoritie all spirits are tried ; why then do some of you cut off certaine bookes , and others of your crew , allow the same , seeing you all vaunt of the self-same spirit ? The Caeluinists spirit alloweth of six Epistles , which the Lutheran spirit doth d●sallow , and yet both of you ( as you say ) haue the holie spirit . The p p Xistus Sen. lib. 7. Anabaptists doe call the historie of Iob a fable interlaced with tragicall and Comicall meeters : how know they that ? by the spirit that instructeth them . q q Praefat. in Cant. Castalio , that lecherous varlet made no more account of that mysticall booke of Salomon , commonly called Cantica canticorum ( which the Catholikes do as highly esteeme as a Paradise of the soul , as that heauenly food Manna , which was laid vp and kept in the tabernacle , and as delicate dainties in Christ ) then he did of a * * This is falsoe for Castalio in his preface hath no such word . baudie song , and ribaudous ta●be of a Courtly wayting mayd with her louer ; where had he this ? of the spirit ? In the Apocalyps of r r Epist. ad Paul . S. Iohn , euery little title whereof S. Hierome affirmeth to containe some high and notable mysterie ; yet neuertheles , these s s Praef. in Apoc. seuere Iudges , Luther , Brentius and Kemnitius find I know not what lacking shooting all at this marke , that the booke might be defaced , and be of no authoritie : whom did they aske ? the spirit . * * This is most false : reade the answere to it . Luther vpon a prepostorous zeale casteth a bone amongst the g g Praefat. in nouum Test. foure Euangelists , and preferring S. Paules Epistles farre before the three former Gospels , in the end concludeth , that the one only Gospell of S. Iohn is from henceforth to be taken , for the gay , for the true , and the principall Gospell ; as one that asmuch as in him lay would gladly haue made the Apostles also partakers of his brawling in religious matters : who was his Tutor ? the spirit . Besides this , that peeuish u u Ser. de Pharis & Publican . Fryer was so malapert , as to endeuor to make * * This is false : for Luther neuer spake saucily of S. Luke . S. Lukes Gospell to be suspected to be written in a wanton style , because therein good workes are often commended vnto vs : whom hath he consulted with ? the spirit . Theodorus Beza was so bold as to reprehend that mysticall word taken out of the 22. Chapter x x Luc. C. 22. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . of S. Luke , Hic est Calix nouum Testamentum in sanguine meo , qui ( calix ) pro vobis fundetur : This is the Cup of the new Testament in my blood , which ( Cup ) shall be sh●dde for you : as very corrupt and euilly placed there ; because this sentence cannot admit any interpretation , but of the * * This is false : for by no meanes can he endure thi● exposition . wine of the Cup changed into the very true blood of Christ : where learned he that ? of the spirit . Finally , when euery man committeth euery thing to his priuate spirit , they belie the name of the holy Ghost most blasphemously . Do not these fellowes which deale thus , bewray themselues , and shew what they are ? are they not easily confuted ? are they not in the assemblie of such men , as you of both the Vniuersities be , quickly perceiued , and soone represt : Ought I to feare disputations with these in defence of the Catholike faith , who with much falshood haue handled the very word not of man , but of God himselfe ? Here I passe ouer such things , as they haue depraued in their false translations , though there be intolerable matters wherewith I may well charge them . I am very loath to take away any part of the matter , either from my old Colledge fellow Master Gregory Martin , a man of excellent great knowledge in the three tongues , y y Latin Greeke and Hebrew . which will handle this matter farre more learnedly and copiously then I can ; or from some others , which ( as I vnderstand ) haue already vndertaken this matter . The matter that I now write of , is farre more heynous and horrible . There were lately discouered certaine pettie Doctors , that vpon a drunken pange laid violent hands vpon the diuine Scriptures , and haue condemned them , as corrupted , as maymed , as falsified , as craftily foisted in , in sundrie places ; some parts thereof they haue corrected , some they haue raced , and some they haue quite pulled out . And lastly they haue changed , as the fortresse of this authenticall writing of Gods owne hand , wherewith before it was fenced , vnto certaine Lutherane spirits , as though it were into vaine bulwarkes of their owne imaginations , or into bare painted walles , least peraduenture they should haue bin mum for want of matter , when they should stumble at such places of Scripture , as are plaine against their heresies . Of which neuerthelesse , they could no sooner shift their hands , then suppe vp hot coales or eate hard stones . Then this first reason seemed to me vrgent and iust , which when it had euidently laid before mine eyes , that the Aduersaries side was but counterfeited and feeble , truely it incouraged me much , being both a Christian , and also somewhat beaten in this kind of studie , in defence of the euerlasting Kings Charter , to encounter with the remnaunts of these discomfited enemies .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the first Reason .

THat Campian , which made you most cheerefull in the cause you haue vndertaken , and boulder then a Iesuite ( being newlie come out of your den or cabbine where you haue lurked these diuers yeeres ) to proclame warre against vs all , and challenge to the combate the most valiant of vs ; that , you saie , was the euident apprehension of our distrust and diffidence in our cause . But what manhood is this for so valourous a man as you make shew to be , to prouoke and with sharpe warre to pursue so timerous aduersaries , who are readie to betake themselues to their heeles , not daring to stand to it , but distrusting their owne strength ? But tell vs in what things our distrust hath bin so sensible . There are many things , say you , which euidently bewray the aduersaries mistrust in the cause . Verelie if boldnes in oppugning and withstanding Religion were of as great force , as vsually it is in making of warre , and scaling the enemies walles , and racing his townes , we might well feare your furious and desperate attempts : for whatsoeuer could be compassed by rage , furie , and crueltie , that hath not in this combate and contention been wanting . But such weapons cannot dare religion and truth , neither can they displace it . Let it be graunted , we haue not been so cheerefull and readie in the defence of a good cause as we ought , and as the cause it selfe well deserued , neither haue we put to flight your forces so soone as we ought to haue vanquished them , yet we neuer gaue ground , we neuer turned our backs vpon you , neither euer fled out of the field . a a DVR . You boats much of your valour . but whether thinke you is he valorous or fearefull , who dare not otherwise buckle with his aduersarie , but vpon condition he may forbid him what weapons he list , and choose for himselfe what he list ? Now here is your valour , you forbid vs the weapons of the Church , Councels , Fathers . You only leaue vs the weapons of the Scriptures ? WH. Pag. 4. He that will ouercome in this cause must onely vse those weapons , which are allowed in this kind of sight . For it is not lawfull heere , as in warre , to take any weapon , by which you can wound your enemie . But weapons must be fetched out of the armorie of the Scriptures , and the spirit of God , or else there will be no foyling of an aduersary . And this is that which the Scriptures doe warrant ; and Constantine commanded the Fathers of the Nicene Councel to vse against the Arrians , and to end controuersies ; the bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles , and the oracles of the old Prophets . Theodoret. lib. 2. cap. 6. And the like teacheth Hillarie de Trinit. lib. 7. August . Epist. 3. and contr. liter . Petil. Donat. lib. 3. cap. 6. and in diuers other places . Why doe you then repoue this thing in vs ? Tell me , whose cause thinke you is best ? whether ours , who are content with the S●riptures alone , and being armed with them can defend our owne , and refel others ; or yours , which in no case can be safe , if the cause must be tried by the Scripture only . Therefore at the fi●st you are forced to confesse that you must come into the field vnarmed and naked , if no weapons will be afforded you besides the Scriptures . For tell vs Campian if you can , and remember the bypast times . Did we euer cunningly auoid any disputation ? did we euer refuse any combate ? did we euer shift off any of your offers and challenges ? But how often haue we publikely entred the combate with you ? how often haue we refuted your oft iterated Sophistications ? what writing of yours is yet vnanswered by vs ? or what course of disputation haue we not yeelded to ? Are not all those disputations held at Wittenberge , Ratesbone , Augusta , Spire , Wormes , Bearne , Possia , London , Cambridge , Oxford , most plentifull and pregnant witnesses , with what spirits , with what learning , with what truth we defended our Religion ? what shew or signe of feare , or diffidence found you amongst vs ? nay rather how true and singular confidence did there appeare in vs ? you it is , and not we , when it comes to a trial indeed that begins to sweat , chaunge countenance , tremble euery ioynt of you , and bewray your deepe distrust and the naughtines of your cause . Wherefore , Campian , take it from me , if you thinke our distrustfulnes will helpe you any thing , you much deceiue your selfe , for if we haue with courage stood against your predecessors so far surpassing you , we will not yeeld a haire to you ? nor feare your manner of conflict , being so childish in the iudgement of all men . But this diffidence , you so cast in our dish , tell vs what it is , and how it appeares so clearely , Forsooth we distrust our hold in the Scriptures , and the maiestie of Gods bookes we haue most filthilie corrupted . This indeed is a very great crimination you obiect to vs , and an vndoubted proofe of our distrust : for they who are not able to maintaine the Religion they professe , vnlesse they lay violent hands vpon the Scriptures , and impeach the sacred authoritie of those heauenly bookes , the cause on their side must be very naught and desperate indeed . Therfore I graunt vnto you , that it was very fearefull desperation , which made the Manachies renounce the old Testament wholy , and cancell part of the new : the same also made Ebion reiect all Paules Epistles , and other heretikes to do so too : for there was nothing fitter for them to vphold those their monstrous opinions , then by denying those bookes of holy Scripture .

But I pray you Campian , let vs see how these things make for your purpose : or what it is wherein we are so like those forenamed Heretikes . Me thinkes it little beseemeth your learning and eloquence , to slaunder vs , and to pinne vpon our sleeues such odious crimes of auncient heretikes so vndeseruedly . If we haue shaken hands with the Manachees , if with the Ebionits , tell vs wherein ? But if we are culpable of no such thing , the Lord shall iudge your outragious and bold slaunders , and maintaine our vprightnes and innocency . For who euer thought and spoke more honorably , reuerently and with more due regard of the Scriptures then we ? who haue receiued and imbraced all Scripture giuen by inspiration , as the very voice of God himself ; holding it for the only mysterie of our faith and religion , and so resting in it , as that we desire no other helpe as necessary to saluation ? which if we had not with more diligence and deuotion defended , then you euer did , long ere this the glorie of it had perished , and it had bin counted as a dead letter : For what haue we done for these many yeeres with more endeuour and diligence , then maintaine the maiesty and excellencie of the Scriptures , which you haue so vnworthily violated ? And yet you blush not to match vs with the Manachees and Ebionits , who haue violently laid most impure and villanous hands vpon those sacred bookes . But , say you , Luther that most wicked Apostata , called the Epistle of S. Iames a contentious , swelling , barren and strawen Epistle , and iudged it vnworthy the spirit of an Apostle : still the fatte would be in the fire , Campian , if you had not one fit of rayling at Luther , for this is to shew your selfe a right Iesuite , as indeed you are , shamelessely and audaciously to breake out into rayling , and specially to teare Luther with most bitter reproches . This is your facultie and profession , this you haue vndertaken to do , whatsoeuer you● leaue vndone : surely he is an happy man , whom the Lord thus honoreth with the enmitie and hatred of such wicked men : for he cannot chuse but be an excellent man , whom wicked men do so deadly pursue . But you obiect against Luther his Apostasie : look to your selfe Campian , if you may not bee more iustly accused of this crime : for doubtlesse you are either an Apostata , or you were a cunning hypocrite . But if it be Apostasie to forsake Apostataes , then was Luther such an Apostata . For hee abandoned theeues , heretikes , Apostataes , and separated himselfe from that Curch , in which that daily Apostasie from religion , 2. Thess. 2.3 which the Apostle did foretell , was now come to the height : they then who would not be Apostataes must flie from the Apostasie of your Church .

But say you , Luther spake not so reuerently of the Epistle of S. Iames as was fitting : It is well all you can challenge him with , is touching this Epistle only : he neuer did by any one word impeach the Gospels of Matthew , Marke , Luke , and Iohn , neither the Epistles of Saint Paul , or Saint Peter ; only a little he taxed the Epistle of Saint Iames. Is Luther alone in this crime ? hath all Antiquitie receiued this Epistle of S. Iames , & Luther only reiected it ? vndoubtedly , no : neither was Luther ignorant what censure the auncient Church gaue of this Epistle : * * Lib. 2. c. pa 23. Eusebius aduentured to write expresly of this Epistle thus . b b DVR . But Eusebius onely saith , that this Epistle was thought of diuers , not to be written by S. Iames ; and denies not the canonicall authoritie of it . For after hee saith : It was receiued of many Churches . WHIT. Pag. 12. You wrest both the words and sence of Eusebius : for he alleageth not other mens opinions , but his owne direct iudgement . But if wee admit that you say , it must the rather bee counterfeit ; for if Saint Iames did not write it , and yet hee calleth himselfe James the seruant of God , and of our Lord Iesus Christ : must it not bee forced ? ●aue the pen-men of the Scripture vsed to take other mens names vnto them ? If you deny it to bee written by Saint James , you must needes confesse it to be Apocrypha : and so after your sense , Eusebius hath reiected this Epistle ; which thing to him that readeth Eusebius will manifestly appeare . And that hee saith many Churches receiue it , and not all ; must needs proue that he thought it was not Canonicall . Be it knowne to all men that this Epistle which is fathered on Saint Iames , is counterfeit : what can be written more plainely ? it may be you will except against Eusebius . But tell vs why ? therefore not to stand with you , Hieronym . in Catalogo . will you heare what Hierome saith , who as you well know was an Elder of the Church of Rome ? The Epistle of Iames is held to haue been published vnder his name by some other . The one saith it is counterfeit , the other writeth , that it was thought to be published not by the Apostle , but by some other . Why then are you angrie with Luther , whom you see not vnaduisedly and rashly to doubt of the authoritie of that Epistle , but therein followeth the iudgement and censure of the auncient Church ? for from hence it is very cleare , c c DVR . Doth hee therefore doubt of the authoritie of this booke ; what shall we then say to Caluin , who hath plainely denied that the Epistle to the Hebrues was written by Saint Paul ? and if you had not been a deceiuer , you would haue alleadged Hierome wholy : for it followeth . Though by little and little in succeeding ages it obtained authoritie . WHIT. Pag. 16 He that saith , It is thus held , and neither dislikes nor refures such a suspition , sheweth he not himself also doubtful of it ? Caluin had some reason , because that Epistle was not published in the name of Saint Paul , as this was of Saint Iames. What comparison is there in these two ? the Epistle of Saint Iames hath his name in the beginning of it , as the author of it ; so hath not the other the name of Saint Paul : so that hee that denies that to bee written by Saint Iames , must needes make it counterfeit . But no such thing here . Therefore may this be held to be canonicall , though it be denied to be written by Saint Paul . If you had read but a few lines more , you should finde that I vsed no deceite , neither had you caus● to be so bitter . And these words of Hierome prooue directly , that the authoritie of this Epistle was sometimes doubted of . that the first age of the Church doubted somewhat of the credit and authoritie of this Epistle . But you will say , it was afterwards receiued , and Hierome witnesseth as much . I inquire not how iustly that might be receiued in a succeeding age , which once was reiected , that the credit and authoritie it had not in the beginning , it might gaine in time by mens calmnesse in iudging : neither will I contend about the authority of this Epistle . Let it be as great as euer any booke had ; we verily receiue it , and put it in the Canon of the Scriptures ; for whatsoeuer Luther or any other may conclude touching this Epistle , or lessen the credit of it any way ; yet all our Churches willingly imbrace it , and iudge it written by the Apostle , or some Apostolike man ; and in it do vndoubtedly acknowledge the doctrine and spirit of an Apostle . * * Caluin . in argument . in Epist. Iacob . I , saith Caluin , willingly and without controuersie receiue this Epistle , because I see no iust cause to reiect it . Therefore obiect no longer vnto vs other mens sharpe censures and hard speeches , whereof we are no wayes guilty : for what is it to vs , what other men thinke of this Epistle , who dispraise no part of it , neither detract any thing from the authority thereof ? But where I pray you writ Luther any such thing , which you make mention of ? let vs see the place , that we may perceiue how faithfully you deale . You tell vs of a Preface he writ vpon the Epistle of S. Iames , such as I thinke few men know : for it is no where to be found amongest Luthers workes : yet by accident I light vpon that preface , and read it from the beginning to the ending , in which not any of those things is to be seene which you mention : so that we may easily coniecture what we are like to find of you in the sequell , when in the beginning you are not ashamed to lye so palpablie . For Luther begins his preface thus . The Epistle of S. Iames though reiected of Antiquitie , I much commend & hold very fitting & profitable . And in this booke of the Babylonish captiuity , he thus writeth of this Epistle . I passe ouer that which many probablie affirme , that this was not the Epistle of S. Iames the Apostle , nor agreeing with the spirit of an Apostle . These things very grauely and modestly hath Luther written concerning this Epistle of S. Iames ; d d DVR . Jf you had seene the copie printed at Jena you should see that Luther thus speaketh of this Epistle . WHIT. p. 22. I acknowledge that Luther in a most auncient preface published by himselfe at Wittenberge 1525. called it a strawen Epistle in comparison of the Epistles of Saint Peter and Saint Paul , but finde not that , you affirme any where . & neuer culled it as you affirme , a contentious , barren , swelling , or a strawen Epistle : though I deny not but Luther was of that opinion , that he greatly called in question the Author and Argument of this Epistle . And it had been your part , who condemne his opinion , to haue confuted his reasons . Erasmus euidently writeth , that this Epistle hath no tast of Apostolike authoritie ; so that Luther iudged more tolerably of this Epistle , then Erasmus . But howsoeuer the case stand , Luther in his iudgment is not without the consent of the e e DVR . Jf he agreed with the first and purest Churches : you differing from him , doe dissent from them . WHIT. I call them the purest Churches , not for their sincere iudgement of this Epistle , but for that they flourished in the best and purest times . first and purest Churches . And yet to let Luther passe , we haue no other opinion of this Epistle , then your selues haue , and honor it as much , as you thinke it deserues . And let me promise and anow this for vs all ; whatsoeuer in this combate , which you haue vndertaken , you proue out of this Epistle , we will most willingly imbrace , and not shift it off , as you suspect we will . All the sentences of this Epistle , we allow of , and reiect not any one . For as for that instance , which you giue of sole faith , it is but a sillie and lame tricke of your sophistry ; our doctrine of iustification by faith only is most true & holy ; which S. Paul also clearely teacheth , though he doe not f f DVR . Saint Paul neuer in plaine words hath affirmed our iustification by faith onlie . WHIT. pag. 27. When S. Paul saith we are iustified by faith , it is as much as by faith alone , because faith respects onely mercy , and withall excludeth workes : Rom. 3.28 & cap. 4.5.6 . & cap. 3.20 . Gal. 2.16 . and lastly he saith we are freely iustified by grace : Eph. 2.7.8 . Rom. 3.24 . then he affirmes that faith only doth iustifie . expressely vse these words , Rom. 3.24.28 . Faith alone . And the auncient do so expound and interpret S. Paul . Ambrose saith ; g g DVR . Ambrose by his sole faith excludeth only the workes of the ceremoniall law , and so he speaketh in that place . WHIT. pag. 33. It is enough that he affirmeth that this is S. Paules position : we are iustified by faith only . And when he excludeth only the workes of the ceremoniall law , in that he is against the iudgement of Augustine and Hierome and himselfe also , in lib. 2. cap. 2. de Iacob . & vita beata . They are iustified only by faith , it is the gift of God . h h DVR . Basil excludes only those workes which are wrought by the sole power of freewill . WHIT. pag. 38. Basil excludes not only the workes wrought by the power of freewill , but euen those which proceed from faith and grace ; for he produced S. Paul , and Saint Peter whom he denies to haue been iustified by workes , yet had they both faith and grace . Basil saith ; They are iustified by faith alone in Christ . i i DVR . Nazianzene excludeth only that high knowledge of diuine mysteries . WHIT. pag. 41. Nazianzene excludes not only that high knowledge of diuine mysteries , but also by it all other workes ; for seeing it is the most excellent , and so excluding the greatest , he must needs exclude the lesse . Nazianzene saith ; Righteousnes consisteth in faith only . Why should I recite any other sayings of other of the Fathers of the Church ? This doctrine is both Euangelicall and Apostolicall ; contrary to this , if Iames or an Angell from heauen should preach , let him be held as impious , wicked , and accursed . But you will say S. Iames denies iustification by faith only , yea affirmes that we are iustified by workes . We answere , that the Apostle speaketh of a k k DVR . Saint Iames speaketh not of a faigned faith : for how can be then speake of Abrahams faith ? how is it fayned to beleeue that God is ? WHIT. pag. 42. S. Iames speak●th of a fayned faith , as is plaine vers. 14. for it is in words only vers. 15.16 . it giueth nothing , when reliefe is required . verse 17. it is without workes and dead . vers. 18 only that is true faith , which can be shewed by workes , heere no workes vers. 19. It is only such a faith as the diuels haue : so a fayned and dead fa●th . pag. 44. And Augustine thus expoundeth it , De fide & oper. Cap. 14. & in Psal. 31. in Praefat. and pag 45. Though Abrahams faith was a true faith , because it shewed it selfe by true fruites and true workes : that proues not , but their faith is fayned who haue no workes . Of which Saint Iames speaketh . pag. 46. faith is not the lesse fayned and vaine , because it beleeues that God is : seeing Saint Iames affirmeth the di●els beleeue as much . feigned dead , idle , and counterfeite faith , which many boasted of , and falsly perswaded themselues they were iust by it . This faith , which we may more truly call a carcase of faith , Saint Iames denieth to be sufficient for saluation to any , and he that is iustified he teacheth must be iustified by workes , that is , must be proued , and declared to be iust : for it must needs be , that faith be liuing , fruitfull and accompanied with good works , that all may clearely perceiue and discerne , you are indued with true faith . And so doth S. Iames very fitly accord with S. Paul , while he disputes from the effects ; when as S. Paul argueth from the cause . The principall & immediate cause of our iustification , S. Paul makes faith ; S. Iames writeth that a man is iustified by workes , that is , euery man by his workes as by most pregnant testimonies is l l DVR . It is ridiculous to thinke , that Saint Iames should teach men how to shew themselues iust , and speake nothing of true iustice . WHIT. pag 47. We say not that Saint Iames teacheth only how a man may obtaine the opinion of iustice with men , but how he may shew and declare himselfe by certaine proofes and arguments to be indued with true iustice . And that this place toucheth the declaration of true faith by workes , and so the demonstration of our iustification , not we , but your owne men do so teach . Thomas Aquin. in Iacob . 2. Glossa-Ordin . in Iacob . knowne and acknowledged iust , while his inuisible faith is witnessed and declared by his visible workes . Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with , or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul , that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie . Wherefore , saith m m DVR . Augustine maketh nothing for you , but against you . WHIT. pag. 50. Augustin● affirm●th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith , which is as much as we here produce him for . Augustine ; Aug. quaes●. 85 quae●t. 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles , S. Paul , & S. Iames , are not contrarie each to other , when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes ; and the other saith , that it is a vaine faith which is without workes ; because S. Paul speak●th of workes which goe before faith : Saint Iames of workes which follow faith ; at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places . Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not , neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification , which Luther learned from S. Paul . Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder , then this iudgement of Luther , touching faith alone , shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne .

From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther : for so you , as an vncleane dogge , terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities . But why you should so call them , I well conceiue not , vnlesse it be , for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes , and other Church robbers , like your selfe . But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed . They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture , Tobias , Ecclesiasticus , the two bookes of the Macchabees , and many other bookes . Say you of a suddaine , Campian ? Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers , that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon ? Looke I pray you into Hierome , and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done . That we may know , saith n n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall : but denies them not to be Canonicall . WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical , but himself o●ten times denies them to be such , and plainely cals them Apoch●ypha bookes , which he w●uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall ; yea and as Duraeus confesseth , they were not so taken vntill ●lmo●t 70● ye●res af●er Christ . Hierome , Hieron . i● Prologo Galiato . Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these , they are to be accounted among the Apochrypha . Therefore Wisdome , which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon , and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach , and Iudith , and Tobias , and Pastor , are not in the Canon . Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon , which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church , and the truth it selfe , denieth to be in the Canon ? marke well his owne words : They are not in the Canon . You say that we haue dashed them out ; and why should we not so doe ? For , saith Hierome , they are not in the Canon . Desire you any further testimonies ? Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome , who after he had recited diuers bookes , which you say we haue put out of the Canon , he thus writeth ; as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke . These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull , Epiphan. in lib. de mensur . & Ponder . but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued . Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron , neither in the arke of the Couenant . But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things . Hieron . praefat. in lib. Solomon . As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith , Tobias , and Macchabees , but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture : so also these two bookes ( he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus ) it reades for edification of the common sort , not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church . If , Campian , you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight , where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine ; but if you know them , you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs , to obiect to vs , I know not what desporation , because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture , which Antiquitie tels vs directly , were neuer admitted , neither are to be admitted : Caietan . in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan , feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees , in a certeine prophesie of Daniels , was a lyer : but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture . Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles , as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels , as often as we dispute against freewill , as often as we dispute against praying to Saints : You must fi●st , before you can conuince vs , proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes , to confirme the doctrine of the Church , which Hierome demeth , and you shall neuer be able to proue , though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation . And seeing you obiect desperation to vs , see ho● you bewray your owne miserable ●esperation ; who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures , but you she to the Apoc●ypha , whose authority hath bin ▪ and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church . The Lord hath commited his Will and Wo●d to writing , and commended it to his Church : Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence ; we are content with them , and we maintaine thei● sufficiency ; let goe then these questionable , obscure , and Apochrypha bookes , and out of these contend with vs about religion . But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture , and hath broken forth into many superstitions . And hence it is that you doe the thing , than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable ; that is , make of like authoritie with holy Scripture , not only the Apochrypha bookes , but euery o o DVR . Pag. 5● . ●●e do not aff●me Traditions , to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it , yet the Councell of ●rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them , as it doth the bookes o● the old and new Testam●nt . See Dec●et . 1. Sess. 4. vnwritten . Tradition , whersoeuer you come by them , at the second or third hand . But what do I telling you of these things , who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and inf●inge all the lawes , both of God and man ? Take this from me : if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke , or any p p DVR . Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn : Euery spirit ●hich diuideth Christis not of God : ●nd the historie of the adulterous woman Iohn 8.3 . WHIT. pag. 65. We haue not raced it out of the ●cripture ; for it is not to be found in the mo●t auncient Greek copies , but as we read it , 1. Ioh. 4.3 . Cyprian also l. b. 2. cap. 8. testim . contra Iudaeos so reads it , and Augustine also ad Po●●ent . lib. 2. cap. 7. reads bo h. The history of the woman taken in adultery we race not out : though some of the auncient haue done , and Beza though he demurred about it , ve● neuer dashed it out . part and portion of any booke , which appeareth to haue bin written and confirmed by diuine authoritie , I will neuer contend any longer , but yeeld you the day , and giue vp our weapons to you . But if we haue euer most faithfully kept the whole corpes of the Scriptures , and haue seuered the true bookes from false , and haue defended the heauenly truth of God , and preserued it vncorrupt , why doe you poore silly F●ier cry out of our desperation , when your selfe is so farre plunged in desperation it selfe , that there is no certainty of your saluation , but by the deprauation and corruption of the holy Scriptures ?

Now in that you affirme we are conuinced by those oracles : As often as we dispute of the defence of Angels , of freewill , of praying for the dead , and of praying to Saints : they are thing which we haue discussed a thousand times , and haue exactly determined them out of the true oracles of God . The defence of Angels is taught vs in the Scripture , where we are taught that God hath set his Angels ouer certaine people , Dan. 10. & 12. ●sal. 91.11 . places , and men ; and of this in general we nothing doubt , but that Angels haue that commission from the Lord , that they must prouide for mens safety and saluation . So that we deny them not some kind of ministration , yea we attribute as much to them as the Lord hath taught vs we should . And as for your q q DVR . Denys ●as S Pauls disciple , and he hath manifested such m●●teries . WHIT. pag 68. Why did not S. Paul , who wa● rapt vp into the third heauen , and saw such great things , declare vnto vs the hierarchy of Angels ? did he bur●e it in silence , and his disciple tell it abroad ? But Denys was not the disciple of S. Paul , as shall in another place be proued . Hierarchie and manifold degrees of Angels , we are willingly ignorant of them , and no whit enuy your knowledge , who haue had the reuelation of such great mysteries from your Denys , who hath ( that I may vse the words of S. Paul ) aduaunced himselfe in those things whic he neuer saw . But it is another patronage of Angels which you defend , and hold that we ought to worship them and call vpon them , which the Scripture in plaine words forbiddeth , for r r DVR . Saint Paul forbids onely the offering vp of sacrifice to Angels , and making of them new mediat●rs . WHIT pag. 70. S. Paul fo●bids all worshipping of them , and so prayers , a swell as sacrifice● ; they being a part of worship . pag 71. Chrysost. in Coloss. 2. hom. 7. in these words : Occumen . in Coloss. 2. whom you alledge , do not interpret them for you , but for our opinion , and as the truth is . S. Paul condemnes Worshipping of Angels . Coloss. 2.18 . And the Angell once and againe called S. Iohn from this kind of worship . s s DVR . Saint Iohn did n●t worship the Angell , but tooke the person of those who held that Angels were to be worshipped with sacrifices , that he being forbidden , they might be reproued in him . WHIT. pag. 72. John did not as you say ; for neither offered he any sacrifice● , neither affirmeth he that he dissembled ; but saith directly : I fell downe to worship before him . You on the contrary say , he fell not downe to worship . And your Thomas vpon Apoc. 19. saith , S. John intended to worship with Dulia . And vpon Apocal. 22. with Latria . See thou doest it not , Apoc. 19.10 & 22 9. Tob. 12. I am thy fellow seruant , and one of thy brethren : worship God . As for Raphael in t t DVR . The auncient Fathers haue cited the booke of Toby , a● Irene , Cyprian , H●la . WHIT. pag. 73. Then will it follow : th●t out of what booke soeuer the Fathers haue alledged any testimony , it must be of the Canon , & ●o the 3 & 4. bookes of Esdra ; for Augustine , Cyprian , & Ambrose cite them , yet your Church reiecteth them . DVR . Hierome putteth them out of the Iewish Canon , not of the Canon of the Church . WHIT. pag. 74. It is strange those Fathers should make them Canonicall , when i● Hieromes time long after them , they were not ; no they were neither in the Canons of the Church , nor of the Iewes Canon . Hieron . in Prasat . in lib. Salom. DVR . Your English Synagogues reade Toby very much . WHIT. pag. 76. And other Apochryphae● , but accounteth them not in the Canon . Tobie , we passe not greatly , neither do acknowledge those seauen Angels of whom he speaketh . All that which was spoken of Raphael , or which he speaketh of himself , i● far differing from the holy Scriptures , and it sauoureth strongly of superstition . The place of Ecclesiasticus doth not much trouble me , neither should I the sooner beleeue u u DVR . pag. 76. If you de●y free wil● to man by nature ; a●d that be cannot but sinne , you establish the Fate of the S●●ickes . WHIT. pag. 77. No more , then when we say Angells necessarily doe good , and diuels euer euill . Againe we deny not mans freewill to naturall and ciuill actions , but to the duties of faith ; because till the sonne hath made him free , he must needs be a seruant of sinne . free will , though he an hundred times should repeate that sentence ; Ecclesiast. 15.17 . Gen. 6.5 . before man is life and death : seeing that the x x DVR . The Scripture doth not teach that men haue lost free will by nature . WHIT. p. 78. What then meaneth it , 1. Cor. 2.14 . If man cannot vnderstand the things of God and eternall life , how can hee will them or doe them ? Phil. 2.13 . The will and deede is wrought in vs by God . Gen. 6.5 . If hee can thinke nothing but euill , where is free will ? Scripture teacheth that man lost his freedome by sinne : the same thing teach the y y DVR . The Fathers doe not deny free will . WHIT. pag. 79. August . Enchirid. cap. 30. Ambrose de vocat . gent. cap. 9. Bernard de libr. arb●t . doe deny it . Fathers also , and euery mans owne experience : howsoeuer these words may be vnderstood of mankind , as he was sometime in Adam . For thus he writeth a little before . Ecelesi●it . 15. vers. 14. He made man from the beginning , and left him in the hand of his owne counsaile ; if he speake of the first condition and state of man , and of his perfect and vncorrupt nature , wherein he was created of the Lord , he speaketh very true : but if he made it now free for vs , as we are naturall men , to chuse or refuse life or death at our owne pleasure ; I am not so bound by the authoritie of this booke and testimonie , but that I may appeale from his Apochryphall sentence to the tried Oracles of God . Now for your booke of the z z DVR . No Church euer reiected the booke of the Macchabees . WHIT. pag. 83. The Church of the Iewes did wholy : and the Church of the Christians as I haue shewed before . Yea , Gregory , the great , who was Bishop of Rome , in Iob. lib. 17. Cap. 16. denies them to be in the Canon . And the Fathers , though they cite them as he did , yet so accounted them for no better . DVR . Augustine placeth them in the Canon . WHIT. pag. 83. Yet Gregory who liued 200. yeeres after him , denies them to be Canonicall , besides Augustine so calleth them , because the Church of Christians read them , and did not reiect them so as the Iewes did . August . de ciuitat . De● lib. 18. cap. 36. & August . cont. Gauden . lib. 2. cap. 23. further , Duraeus , confesseth that they were neither written by a Prophet , nor confirmed by a Prophet : then certeine it is they are not in the Canon . DVR . Christians must be ruled by the iudgment of the Catholike Church . WHIT. pag. 85. The Catholike Church cannot make those bookes which are not Canonicall to be Canonicall : besides I haue shewed , that the Catholike Church doth reiect them . Macchabees , I make far lesse account of it , which Hierome , Epiphanius , Athanasius , Cyprian , haue hissed out , and the Leodicene Councel hath reiected . Moreouer that which is therein spoken of the sacrifice offered vp for the sinnes of the dead , is meerely matter of supposall , and forced into the text : for neither in Iosephus is any such thing to be found in the Greeke , neither in Iosephus the sonne of Gerion , who yet writ the self-same history in Hebrew , is there any mention of any such sacrifice , neither had the a a DVR . The Iews Machzor sheweth that they do pray and offer sacrifice for the dead . WHIT. pag. 85. I much ●egard not what the Iewes do now : I affirmed that the old Iewes had neither precept nor practise for it . Iewes either by precept , or practise any such custome , to offer sacrifice and prayers for the dead . Lastly in the Greeke copy there is that inuersion and disordered placing of the words , that you can hardly make any true sense , or any whole sentence hang together . View the place in the Greeke text , and if you can fitly translate it so , that all things may hang well together , I will yeeld , you are a better Grecian then I tooke you for . Shall I be tied then by the authority and force of this booke , place , or sentence , to offer with you prayers and oblations for the dead ? you are too too childish , Campian , to thinke such things can incline the Students of our Vniuersities to like your side : other manner of matter must you bring , and of more force , if you will gaine our fauourable audience and good conceite : for these things long agoe we haue distasted and spit out ; but who euer said , your selfe excepted , that this place of the Macchabees doth proue and confirme inuocation of Saints ? It is one thing to offer sacrifice for the dead , and another thing to say that the Saints departed make intercession for vs . As for Iudas b b DVR . Many things were declared to the Prophets by dreames . WHIT. pag. 87. Must I therefore beleeue euery dreame written in the Apochrypha bookes , as diuine oracles ? neither did that dreame make the Macchabees pray to Onia or Jeremie , but to the Lord only . 2. Mac. 15.21 . DVR . The Iewes thought that Christ had praied to Eliah , when Matth. 27.47 . he said Eli Eli Lamb. &c. therefore praying to Saints was familiar and common with them . WHIT. pag 87. It is plaine that the Iewes said this only to deri●e Christ , whom they thought God had forsaken , and therefore he fled to Eliah for helpe . dreame touching Onia , of which we read 2. Macchab. 15. I passe it ouer as a dreame : but the matter is not great whether you vnderstand the intercession of the dead , or oblations for the dead : both is yours , and both most false . And heere againe you cry out with great vehemency ; Is it true indeed ? is there such frowardnes , is there such presumption among men ? heere is neither the one , nor the other , Campian● we haue done nothing frowardly ; nothing presumptuously : I wonder at your frowardnes and presumption , that those bookes which God disclaimes , as none of his , which reuerend antiquitie hath put out of the Canon ; yet you in your horrible & detestable frowardnes & presumption , will bring into the Canon , whether God wil or no , the holy Fathers denying them , & the bookes themselues disclaiming it . The Caluinists , say you , haue cut off from the body of the old Testament , These are Ba●uch , Tob●as , Iud●th , Su●●ent a. Ec●●ejias●icus . t●●o Macchabees . H●●ron prae f●t . in Ier. seauen whole bookes : Why you shamelesse Frier , did not Hierome a thousand yeeres before Caluin was borne , race them out ? Why then slippe you ouer Hierome , and quarrell with Caluin only , when they are both in one predicament ? Heare yet againe what Hierome saith . Whatsoeuer is besides these bookes , is to be accounted Apocrypha : but these seauen bookes which you reckon vp , and calumniously auouch that we haue raced them out , are besides those Hierome makes mention of ; they are then to be accounted Apochrypha . For most of these we haue sufficiently answered . For Baruch , Hierome saith , We neither reade it , nor find it in the Hebrew ; all the other he casteth out of the Canon , Hieron ad Domnion , & Rogatian . and writeth freely . Those bookes which are not to be found in the Hebrew , neither are any of the 24. are to be reiected of those , who are of ripe yeeres and knowledge . But you Iesuits are alway Children , as the Egyptian Priest answered Solon touching the Grecians . I wonder why you say neuer a word touching the third and fourth booke of Esdra : it may be you are ashamed of them , being bookes , as Hierome writeth , full of dotages : yet your Church hath had them in great account , and the Fathers often times haue alledged testimonies out of them ; why do you , Campian , suddeinly dash these bookes out of the Canon ? If you iudge they must be kept in the Canon , why doe you not taxe the Caluinists , who , as all men know , haue cut them out of the old Testament ? Why when you number vp all those sacred bookes , cut out of the Canon by the Caluinists , omit you these altogether ? Or if these be Apocrypha , why should we deeme the rest to be Canonicall ? I am not a little desirous to know , what is your iudgement of these bookes : but you say further : Epist. Iacob . Ep ad Heb. Epist. Juda. Epist. 2. Pet. Epist. 2. & 3. Ioan. The Lutherans haue cut off Saint ▪ Iames Epistle , and for spite of it , fiue others , which somewhere else also were once called in question . That these were once and elsewhere in question , you cannot deny . The light and euidence of the storie hath wrung this from you . But tel vs who made question of them ? Did heretikes onely ? Then account Eusebius & Hierome amongst heretikes , who haue reported to vs their owne iudgement of these Epistles , with the iudgement of the Church . Can you prooue that they were accounted heretikes , in the first and pure ages of the Church , who tooke out of the Canon these Epistles ? For the Epistle of Saint Iames , I haue answered sufficiently : we neither reiect that , nor any of the other Epistles , which you falsely accuse the Lutherans to haue cut out ; this is no fauit of ours , whom you knowe to be farre from Lutheranisme : quarrell then with them : as for vs , we neuer cunningly shifted off the testimonies and allegations of those Epistles . Can you in equitie require any more of vs ? At length then forbeare to vpbraide vs with I knowe not what desperation , frowardnes and presumption : wee willingly admit , receiue , and allow of your owne bookes , which your selfe make vse of in disputation ; to their iudgment will we stand , if you can conuince vs by these you winne the field .

That which you adde of the booke of Ester , and of almost three whole chapters of Daniel , is nothing but cauilling . The booke of Ester we account Canonicall , as much as by Gods authoritie is written in b b DVR . As if the Hebrew tongue were the rule of the Canon , and of diuine authority . WHIT. pag. 90. No booke is a part of the new Testament , which is written in Latin , yet is not Greeke the rule of the Canon . Hebrew : but those fragments , which commonly are annexed to that holy history of Ester , we cannot so highly account of : as for those three chapters , they are none of Daniels , of which read , if you please , c c DVR . Hicrome to Ruffinus , seemeth to approue those three chapters of Daniel . WHIT. pag. 92. Erasmus noted that Hierome delt craftely , hauing in his preface shewed he thought otherwise . Hieromes preface vpon Daniel . And there you shall find , that not the Anabaptists only , but the auncient Iewes haue reiected and derided them . But , Campian , why doe you trifle thus ? were you wont to build much vpon the authority of those bookes ? did you in these lay the foundations of your faith ? why then do you seeke to make vs odious by these bookes , which if they were neuer so Canonical , would further your cause neuer a whit the more ?

Now you much commend Augustines modestie . Who , August . de doctrin . Christ . lib. 2. cap. 8. say you , hath made a Catalogue of the bookes of holy Scripture , farre better then either the Iewes , or Sectaries . I could wish you Iesuits had a little more modestie , that ye might be more like Augustine ; for all men speake and cry out of your male pertnes and insolency . But Augustine counted those bookes Canouicall , which we do not ; true , I deny it not , but what of that ? is not Augustine opposite to Hierome ? for Hierome expressely denies those bookes to be numbred in the Canon . And Augustine setting downe the whole Canon of the Scripture , doth annex these to it . It seemeth there is a great difference in their iudgements : for those which Hierome denies , Augustine affirmeth to be Canonicall : both famous men and such as haue deserued well of the Church of God ; how then may we satisfie Augustine , whom Campian obiecteth vnto vs ? No otherwise then as the truth is . The termes of Apochrypha and Canonicall Hierome vseth in one sense , and Augustine in another : Hierome accounted all these bookes Apochrypha , which were not written in Hebrew : Augustine though in deed and in truth he differed not , yet he gaue this name especially to those bookes , which were not fraught with fables and lies , such as those times afforded very many . For so he writeth lib. 15. cap. 23. de ciuit . Dei . Though there be some truth found in the Apochrypha bookes , yet they haue no Canonicall authoritie , there being so many lies in them . Therefore he names in the Canon the booke of Iudith and Toby and Ecclesiasticus , & other of that sort , because there was more truth and sinceritie in them , then in those common and diuulged fables . Therefore Augustine vseth the terme of Canonicall Scripture more largely then Hierome , and of Apochrypha more strictly : vnlesse happily we will suppose that of set purpose Augustine would differ from Hierome in a thing of that moment . Besides the Romish Cardinal , Caietan . in fine comenta . in histor. veter . Testameuti . of whom we spake before , writeth that certeine Councels with Augustine accounted these bookes Canonicall because they were rules for manners , not for faith and doctrine . And what reason Augustine had to plead for the booke of Wisdome , De predest . Sanct. c. 24. least it should be turned out of the Canon , let him looke to it himselfe ; this very booke Hierom , ( whom you Iesuits vsually preferre before Augustine ) hath by name excluded , and from the selfe-same place where Augustine confirmeth the authority of this booke , euery man may gather , that it was not commonly receiued in the Canon ; for when Augustine cited a testimony out of that booke . He was taken away , Wisd. 4.11 . least wickednes should alter his vnderstanding , many of the brethren who were present cried out ; It was not alledged out of a Canonicall booke . d d DVR . But you reuiue not Augustines answere , and how he obiected against them , the consent of all Bishops , faithf●ll Laitie . &c. WHIT. pag. 97. Augustine doth not accuse them of impudency or sacriledge for denying it , nor reprou●s them much , only he saith it is better then other treatises ; which I acknowledge . And the consents of the former he alledged to proue that a sentence of this booke , is not lightly to be reiected , seeing many Churches did reade it , though all did not receiue it , as himselfe saith de ciuit . Dei lib. 27. cap. 20. Now it is like , they neuer would haue reiected the argument and testimony of this speech , if the authoritie of that booke had been Canonicall in the Church . And yet I denie not but that Antiquitie might thinke more reuerently of this booke , then of other of the bookes of Apochryphaes . For I obserue in Eusebius , that c c DVR . Melito affirmeth this booke to be Canonicall . WHIT. pag. 98. Be it so , yet he reiectes all your other and what haue you got by it ? But by the name of Wisdome some thinke , he meaneth the Prouerbs of Salomon . Melita , the Bishop of Sardis , in a certeine Epistle written to Onesimus , wherin he setteth downe exactly the number of the sacred bookes of the old Testament , and accounteth this booke as one of the Canon : yet he mentioneth not one of the others which we call Apochrypha , neither Toby , nor Iudith , nor the Macchabees , nor Ecclesiasticus , nor yet any of the rest , for which you striue so much ; yet he affirmeth that he tooke great paines to know exactly those auncient bookes , and professeth that he fully attained his end . Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. After , saith he , I had learned exactly what bookes belong to the old Testament , I sent them here vnder written vnto you . And this it may be induced Augustine to attribute the more to this booke , and yet it cannot be proued hence , as you would haue it , that this booke was Authenticall and Canonicall by the account of the Church , for Augustine himselfe witnesseth that it was not allowed as Canonicall by the iudgement of the Church ; neither indeed if the Church would haue giuen it all the allowance she could , could she haue made it Authenticall , except it had before it owne Authenticalnes in it selfe from aboue .

But you who glory so greatly in Antiquitie , in the voice of the Church , in Councels , what will you answere to the Laodicene Councell , Concil. Laodic . Canon . 59. which forbids the reading of those bookes , which are without the Canon , and commaundeth the reading of those only which are of the Canon of the old and new Testament : f f DVR . It hath been answered a thousand times , that as yet in this age all the bookes were not receiued into the Canon . WHIT. pag. 102. Then by your confession , for 300. yeeres after Christ these bookes were not in the Canon ; it skilleth not much what the latter Churches haue affirmed , when the purest and most auncient Churches affirme the same wedo . DVR . The Councels of Carthage , Florence , and Trent , haue allowed them for Canonicall . WHIT. pag. 102. We acknowledge not the two last to be lawfull Councels , the first allowed it for manners , not doctrine and faith , and if the authoritie of it bee so great with you , then you may not call your Pope vniuersall Bishoppe ? for that Councell denied it to him . Carthag. 3. cap. 26. distinct. 99. prima sedis . But which are they ? are all those which the Tridentine Councell hath put in the Catalogue ? nothing lesse , but those only which our Church doth hold Canonicall . If Campian , you will stand to the iudgement of this Councell , neither the booke of Wisdome , nor any one of the other shall haue place among the Canonicall Scriptures . Now then whatsoeuer Augustine should say , if he were aliue , doth not much trouble vs : for whatsoeuer he should say in this kind , he could speake nothing against vs , but it would touch the Fathers of the Laodicene Councell , whose decree in this point , touching the Canonicall Scriptures , either he had seene , or at least might take notice of it .

Now for the things which follow you shew much colour but little reason . You call this a horrible and detestable shift . Then doe you , Campian , if you can , driue vs out of this hold . Me thinketh it is so safe and well fortified , that it will easily beare off and repell all your assaults . Though , say you , their armes be blased neuer so far abroad by their owne disciples , though they buy and sell benefices , though in their sermons they cry out against Catholikes , though they procure them the sword , racke and gallowes , yet are they ouercome , naught set by , horrible in mens sight , and quite ouerthrowne . But yet young Frier , ●ow thus much , by Gods blessing we hitherto stand vpright on our seete , neither euer were we soyled at your hands , but haue long agoe by the helpe of God scattered , ouerthrowne , and put to flight many of your armies . And the whole huge forme of your pontificall and glorious synagogue hath long since tottered , and in short time will fall to the ground , as Dagon before the Arke ; vnlesse you Iesuits manfully vphold and susteine it : for it is impossible for vs to be vanquished of you , in the defence of this cause . Therfore with good courage and cheerefulnes we pursue this flight , nothing doubting but that the Lord in the end will represse you , and all the enemies of his name and glorie , and make you his footstoole . And for that you write , touching buying & selling of benefices , if any be yet amongst vs , it is but the reliques of your wicked practises heretofore among vs . For you know the custome of the Romish Court , you know their filthines , their auarice , their Simony , yea you know how the whole world crieth out , and that continually of your most gainfull Marchandizes . Haue you now leisure since you left Rome , to prie into our carriage , are all things so wel at home , that you can without shame find faults abroad ? Suppose you were now become honest and holy ; yet you shall neuer bee able to cleere your Church of those filthie blemishes , wherewith it hath bin defiled in former times . And if there be any yet amongst vs that vse so foule a trade , they are well worthy to heare such reproaches from you , as such practises do deserue . But I maruell the lesse that you obiect to vs buying and selling of Benefices , when you complaine of our crueltie . Now , good God , are we so cruell and you so mild ? what shall I say to it or what answere may I make ? sure it is , there is nothing more inhumane , then cruelty , or more opposite to a Christians vertue : for the disciples of Christ ought to be gentle , clement , and meeke , master-like : what then ? are we more cruell then you ? I will neuer deny this triall , that their cause should be iudged the worst , whose cruelty appeares to be the greatest : I call to witnes all the people of the Christian world , who haue yet any sense of humanity and equity remaining in them . Let Italy speake , also Germany , Spaine , Fraunce , and our England . It were tedious to recite the horrible murders , the fearefull burnings , and exquisite punishments you exercised amongst vs . Your cruelty is knowne , and is yet fresh in memory , neither shall euer be buried in obliuion : what like to these did we euer practise , or wherein is our cruelty so great ? was it because we suffered not our throats to be cut by you , nor receiued your weapons into our bodies , nor laid our neckes vpon the block , nor willingly gaue vp our liues , that we might giue you leaue to liue as you list . This is it indeed you wished for , for this you labour , and goe about : we poore wretches are accounted cruell , because we liue , and liue to withstand your proceedings . But I doubt not but all indifferent men do sufficiently discerne , g g DVR Campian himselfe had experience of your cruelty . WHIT. pag. 105. If Campian was by publike proceeding condemned for treason , and put to death : who will accuse our cruelty , and not the greatnes of his offence , yea and that he suffered not for religion , appeareth thus ; others who were condemned with him at the same time , and for the same offence , when they renounced the Popes authority of deposing of Kings , and freeing of subiects from obedience , were not put to death , as he was . how iniuriously you lay this crimination vpon vs , for these things which you name as the sword , the racke , the gallowes , and fier , are the instruments of your cruelty , and had it not been for these , your Church had been ouerthrowne long agoe : for by these weapons it was first founded , after increased , and is now maintained ? if once these faile you , questionlesse it cannot long continue .

But you now begin to presse your aduersaries somewhat more forceably ; and you demaund of them , for example sake , by what authority they maime ; and robbe the corpes of the Bible , I answere we offer no violence to this body , ne●ther do we cut off any which doe appertain to the substance , and perfection of it ; we dash out no part of it , we pull away no member . For ( to vse your owne words ) we do not cut out any true Canonicall Scriptures , but cull out such as are not Canonical , but foisted in and counterfeit . But you would know who shal be iudge ; you make Caluin to answere for vs : the holy Ghost : and you suggesting that he giueth this answere , to escape the iudgement of the Church ; if you enquire how we know these writings , which we call Scriptures , to be heauenly , and giuen by the inspiration of God , that is , by what testimony we are perswaded that those writings are holy Scripture , which are so called : I would aske you with as much reason another question , how know you the sonne is the sonne , or how ye come not to doubt , that God is God : for we verely haue as much certeinty that th●se bookes are the sacred Scripture , commended of the Lord to the Church , written by the Prophets and Apostles , proceeding from diuine authoritie , as that the Moone is the Moone , yea as wee are sure of any thing else , which by vndoubted knowledge we are full assured of ; this answere Caluin also hath giuen you , Iustit . lib. 1. cap. 7. sect. 4. cap. 8. toto . writing that many things might be produced , which would easily proue , that if there be a God in heauen , the Law , the Prophets , and the Gospell came from him : yea and with many words at large he vrgeth it with most strong arguments , such as may satisfie any reasonable man touching the authoritie , and credit of the Scriptures . There are in the bookes themselues proofes enough , both certeine ; and perspicuous , which will proue and demonstrate the credit of the Scriptures , that no man need boubt of them . But because the sense and reason of man is often times weake , and easily distracted into diuers and doubtfull cogitations , the inward and hidden testimony of the spirit must be had , that men may firmely rest in the Scriptures . For though outward testimonies will so conuince vs , that for shame we cannot deny the Scriptures to be the word of God ; yet then only do we attaine a certeine and sauing ful assurance , when the same spirit , which writ and published them , doth perswade our harts of the credit of them . And this is that spirit , which the Lord hath promised to his Church , and which dwelleth in the harts of the faithfull , and is as a seale vnto them , he that hath not this spirit , shall euer in himselfe be vncerteine and doubtfull , though he heare the Church a thousand times . What is the fault then you find , Campian ? Caluin , say you , doth make the spirit Iudge thereby to escape the iudgement of the Church , by whose authoritie all spirits are tried . The iudgement of the Church ought not to differ from the iudgement of the spirit : the same spirit gouerneth the whole h h DVR . What an absurd thing is this , that you contemne the voice of the Church , and allow your common people to iudge rather of the Script●res , and giue all to the spirit ; when the Fathers haue obiected the Church against heretikes ? WHIT. pag. 109. We contemne not the voice of the first Church , wherein these were written , and from them commended to succeeding Churches . But , pag. 108. we much regard not the voice of your Romish Church ; for as we know there is a God , though it tell vs not so much : so that the Scriptures are the word of God , though it be silent ; and by the same grounds that your Church knoweth the Scriptures to be the Scriptures , by the same proofes may euery priuate Christian know them . pag. 111. If you know not , that the grace of the spirit is necessary to discerne the Scriptures , then reade these places John 14 , 26. 1. Iohn 2 , 26 , 27. 1 , Cor. 2 , 14 , 10. Esay 51 , 16. Now the same spirit who w●it them , seales them vp to vs : without which some knowledge may be had of them , b●t no faith ; we may acknowledge them , but not certeinly beleeue them without the spirit . And if the Fathers haue obiected the Church against heretikes , in the like case we will do the same . For the testimony of the spirit is not of validity to confute others , but to confirme our selues . Church and euery particular beleeuer . But your Church knoweth not this spirit ; no maruell then if it dislike the iudgement of the spirit : yet I would haue you take this for an answere once for all : that the authority of the Scriptures doth not depend vpon the iudgement of the Church : for let the Church iudge what it will , yet can it neuer by all the authority it hath make the Canonicall bookes to be no Canonicall ; and that those which are not Canonicall , should be had in reputation as Canonical . The Scripture hath it owne proper authority in it selfe , not borrowed from another . And as little can the Church add authority to the Scripture , as it can to God , the authour of it . But say you , how commeth it to passe , that the Caluinists spirit alloweth six Epistles , which the Lutheran spirit doth disallow ? you go in a ring , making only the repetition of the same things without any proceeding . Those Epistles the Lutherans i i DVR . That the Luthe●an● do not like these Epi●iles , t●ey of Magdeburg . Centur. 1. lib. 2. cap. 4. tell vs plainely . WHIT. pag. 117. What is that to vs who thinke as honorablie of them as you do ? but if they , by the example of auncient ●hurches haue spoken somewhat hardly of those Epistles , is there heere any such difference of ●pirits ? All things are not reue●led to all a like : all haue not the like measure of the spirit . If any be otherwise minded , God will in his time reue●le ●t to him . doe not reiect , nor dash them out of the new Testament ; yea they acknowledge them , they make vse of them in vnfoulding of controuersies , they expound them in their schooles and churches , and they reade them both priuately and publikely : vpon many of them Luther hath written k k DVR . By the same reason , if Luther should comment vpon certeine of Aesops fables , and Illyricus vpon al , then by their spirit they are certeinly receiued into the Canon . WHIT. pag. 117. And why may not Aesops fables be in the Canon , if your Church please ; seeing your Wolfangus & Hermannus affirme , the Scriptures are of no more authority , then those fables without the authority of your Church ? But I adde if you would haue seene it , that they vsed them in preaching , in expounding Scriptures , in deciding controuersies , and did interpret them both priuately and publikely . Commentaries , Illyricus vpon all . That of the authority of those Epistles in times past the Catholike Church made some doubt , they discouer to their Auditors , and shew withall the causes of that doubt , and that done , leaue it vndetermined . I pray you , Campian , what contradiction find you heere , betwixt the spirit of the Caluinists and the Lutherans ? Yet still you cauil at this iudgement of the spirit , which of all other is most certeine and heauenly : and heere you produce Anabaptists , Castalio , Brentius , Kemnitius , Luther , and Beza . And by these you hope that you may diminish the authority of the spirit . Sixt. Senens . lib. 7. The Anabaptists , ( say you ) call the historie of Iob a fable , interlaced with tragicall and Comicall matters . As though we were ignorant , how wickedly and blasphemously they conceiue , not only of the history of Iob , but also of the whole bookes both of the new and old Testament ; and that spirit of the Anabaptists , what was it but a kind of frency , and a violent and head-strong madnes ; which no spirit euer did more represse , then l l DVR . The Anabaptists will aswell accuse the spirit of Calnin of madnes and folly . WHIT. pag. 119. Yet I durst make you iudge of this controu●●fie , & vnles you were also as mad , you would iudge them very vnlike . the Caluinist and Lutheran spirit ? Why then doe you mention their madnes , therby to scoffe at the certeine iudgements of the holy Ghost ? Prafat . in Cantic . Castalio , say you , made no more account of Salomons Song , then he did of a bandy song and ribauldous talke of a Courtly waiting maide with her louer . I will not take vpon me to defend all that any man hath written at randome , much lesse will I trouble my selfe to defend the credit of Castalio , whom I well know hath erred in many great points very shamefully . Yet in this place I find you haue notably abused Castalio : for in that short preface which he hath set before this booke , he hath none of those you speake of , neither a song , nor a Loue , nor courtly waiting maides , nor wanton talke , nor any such thing , but hath truly , learnedly , and modestly in few words comprised the summe of the whole booke : his first words are these : A conference betwixt the Sauiour and his Church . Now you may see how highly Caestalio accounted of this song , and how shamelesse your cauill is against him . I cannot now be much offended with you , for casting so many false things vpon Caluin and Luther , when you are not ashamed so palpably to bely Castalio . And that you say next touching the Reuelation , is much like to the rest of your cauils . In it , say you , Luther , and Brentius , Praefat in Apo●al . lib. 3. cap. 24. & cap. 39. and Kemnisius , find , I know not what , lacking . What is the meaning of this , They find somewhat lacking ? do they reiect it , do they disallow it ? you cannot say so : therefore you speake faintly and diffidently : They find somewhat lacking . Howsoeuer , if you will reade Eusebius , you shall vnderstand that in it many things were found lacking , and that it was not receiued of all , yea plainly reiected of many . But what is this to vs , when as you cannot deny wee haue receiued this booke , and do no lesse reuerence the mysteries that are in it , then your selues ? and perhaps it had fitted your turne well , if this booke had either perished , or been of no credit at all : for it doth so liuely paint out your Pope , & your purple whore in her colours , that it cleerely discouereth to all men , who is Antichrist .

Haue you yet any thing more against Luther ? Praefat. in nouum Testamentum . Luther , say you , casteth a boue among the foure Euangelists and preferring S. Pauls Epistles farre before the three former Gospels , in the end concludeth , that the only Gospell of S. Iohn from henceforth is to be taken for the gay , the true , and the principall Gospell ; Luther indeed preferreth the Gospell of Iohn before the other three , because he setteth downe the Acts of Christ more briefly , and his Sermons more fully . Now a Gospell consisteth rather in heauenly doctrine , then in the history of things done . Yet he denies not but that the other Gospels are well set out , true , and very excellent ; and farre is he from esteeming this the only gay and true Gospell . Now this very point you speake of heere , I find also in the preface of the first Epistle of S. Peter . And I would intreate the Christian reader to take thorough notice of this thing , so shall he easily perceiue both Luthers integritie , and Campians cauilling . First Luther teacheth what a Gospell is : and writeth that a Gospell signifieth nothing else , But the preaching and publishing of the grace , and mercy of God by the Lord Christ , merited and purchased to vs by his death . He that either preacheth or writeth this grace and mercy of God in Christ , he , as Luther affirmeth , teacheth the Gospell . And therefore not the foure Euangelists only haue taught the Gospell ; but also all the Apostles haue done so too , and especially Saint Paul & Saint Peter in their Epistles . And moreouer he affirmeth , that of all those they are the best m m DVR . What Scripture teacheth vs , that be is an Euangelist , which teacheth iustificatio by faith only ? Jf any , then Luther was the best Euangelist . WHIT. pag. 125. I can recken you vp many , but these may suffice , Esay 52 ▪ 7. Rom. 10.15 . Now peace ●iseth of our reconciliation with God and remission of sinnes , which things faith only layes hold on . Rom. 5.1 . 2 , Cor. 5 , 19. Rom. 4 , 4. And this matter S. Paul principally , in his Epistles to the Romans and Galathians , hath fully and plainly handled , and not Luther so much . DVR . But the Angell tau●ht no such thing Luk. 2.10 . WHIT. pag 126. If you had looked to the next verse , you should haue found that the Angell did te●ch as much in effect . Euangelists , who haue therein specially laboured , to teach iustification by faith in Christ alone : for this is the summe of the Gospell . And hereupon he concludeth that the Epistles of Paul may more fitly be called the Gospell , then those things Matthew , Marke , and Luke haue written : for that he doth more fully & plentifully decipher to vs the grace of God in Christ , then those three , whose history is for the most part spent in the declaration of the Acts and Miracles of Christ . And this is the true cause wherfore he preferred the Gospell of S. Iohn and the Epistles of S. Paul before the three other Gospels ; whereby he neither casteth a bone among the Euangelists , nor goeth about to make the Apostles partakers of his brawlings ; neither hath said any thing either frowardly or preposterously : for why , I pray you , may we not say , that S. Paul hath more cleerely and excellently described the power of the Crosse of Christ in his Epistles , then any of the Euangelists in their historie ; when as by it the authoritie of the historie of the Gospell is nothing disparaged ? And now I doubt not but I haue sufficiently defended Luthers innocency against your rayling and outragious saucines .

But yet againe you assault Luther : whom you say doubted not to taxe S. Lukes Gospell , Serm. de Pharis . & Publi . as if it were written in a wanton stile , because therein good workes are often recommended vnto vs . Was there euer read or heard of the like impudencie , audaciousnes , and treacherous dealing in any man ? The place you note in the margent I haue very diligently and heedfully obserued , that I might discerne ; wherin Luther hath shewed such male pertnes : but I haue not found one vnholy , nor dishonorable terme , vnfit to be giuen to S. Luke , as being an heauenly Euangelist . For that which Luther propounds to himselfe is to take out of mens minds a scruple , which S. Lukes often mention of workes might moue in them ; lest any happilie might thinke that S. Luke by often speaking of works , should detract somewhat from faith , or place our iustification in our workes . And this is , as you affirme , saucilie to giue S. Luke a wipe ; if you can tel me of any greater matter , I will no waies defend or excuse Luthers malepertnes . But what malepertnes is this of yours , Campian , whom neither the feare of God , nor the reuerence of men , can restraine from writing or diuulging of those things , which your owne conscience tels you are most false ? and you cannot passe by Beza neither without the like Calumnious censure . Who , say you , was so bould as to reprehend that mysticall word , Hic est calix , n●u●m Testame●tum in s●●guine meo , qui ( calix ) pro vobis fundetur , This is the cup of the new Testament in my blood , which ( cup ) shall be shedde for you ; a● corrupted and depraued . I see well where your error is in following that corrupt and adulterous vulgar translation , for 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , you thus translate . a a DVR . I confesse there is a Metonymy in the cup : the cup being put for the blood . WHIT. pag. 130. Then , this cup , is as much , as this blood : Then see what a sentence you haue made : This blood is the new Testament in my blood , which is shed for you . As if Christ had said : This blood is the new Testament in my blood . And so heere are two bloods , and the one in the other . Hic est calix nouum Testamentum . This is the cup of the new Testament : when the words are rather thus to be placed . Hic calix est nouum Testamentum , This cup is the new Testament : and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 being a participle of the present tence , you translate by a verbe of the future tence : Qui fundetur , shall be shed for you : for , Qui funditur , is shedde for you . But you dare not goe a haires breadth from the vulgar translation , for feare of incurring that curse of the Councell of Trent . But heere Theodor Beza apparantly is caught in a haynous crime : for he writeth that Luke hath committed a Solecisme : what then I pray you ? a very foule fact and very intolerable . Is it so indeed ? how shall we then defend Hierome , who writeth that Paul committed such solecismes in his words , that by no good ordering any good sense could be made of them ? In cap. 3. Epist. ad Ephes. If S. Paul might commit Solecismes in his words , why may we not thinke S. Luke may doe as much ? and if Hierome without sinne might accuse S. Paul , not to speake properly or scholer-like ; why might not Beza note some want of propriety of speech in S. Luke ? for you are wide , Campian , if you thinke this any thing diminisheth the authoritie & dignity of the Scriptures , for Hier●me construeth it quite contrarie . Let vs looke therefore vpon the place of the Euangelist , that we may iudge where this fault is .

The words runne thus . This cup is the new Testament in my blood which is shedde for you . If you change nothing in the words and exclude all incongruitie , then these last words , Which is shed for you , must be referred to the first , This cup. And so this should be the meaning , This cup is shed for you : But not the cup , but the blood of Christ was shed for vs . But you will say the cup is put for the wine in the cup. So that whether you will or no , you must acknowledge that in these words there is a trope or figure : though you Papists vsually deny the same , and vehemently cry out , none of them is to be taken figuratiuely . But you your selues in these words make two figures ; first you take the cuppe for the wine in it , then the wine for the blood of Christ , which in no hand you can do without a figure : therefore heereafter stand not vpon words ; for if you will now stand to the words , you must either graunt that the cup was shed for vs , or you must admit a solecisme and vnproper speech . If we will read them as Basill doth ; Basil . in Eth. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Which blood is shed for you : the meaning wil be plaine , when these words which is shedde for you , are referred to the blood of Christ . These are Campians collections of such things , wherein our men haue offended against the authoritie and dignity of the Scripture . These he crieth out do euidently open our diffidence and desperation , these are those things he propoundeth vnto you , that are most learned of the Vniuersity . Whose iudgement I am therefore also wel contented to stand vnto , because I well know your learning and wisdome , together with your studious endeuours in the best authors , to be such , that this sillie foolish sophister with all his slaunders and lies shall neuer be able to remoue or corrupt you : for what matter hath he brought , or what inuention , which may seeme to sauour either of deepe learning , much reading , or witty conceit ? Therefore you shall do wel to set light by the threats of this Philistine , and to cleaue with constancy to that holy religion which you haue learned out of the holy Scriptures : as also proceed in that course of vertue and learning you haue begun , that the Iesuits with all their inchauntments may lose all their labour in seeking to seduce you .

Hitherto Campian hath busied himself in discoursing vnto vs , what he could , concerning the holy bookes , being desirous also to deliuer vnto vs , such things as we haue depraued in our false translations : saue that , as he saith , he reserues this labour for his old Colledge fellow Gregory Martin , & some others , whom he well knoweth will performe it farre more learnedly and copiously then himselfe . Therefore if you thinke good , we will expect this Martin of whom you speake , and whom I shall easily conceiue to be a man of more learning then your selfe , vnlesse he be a very doult indeed . And I doubt not but we shall be able to maintaine our translations , both Latin and English , against your Martin and all your Colleagnes . And as for those petty Doctors whom you lastly reproach , I neither know them , nor the nature of their offence . But when once your friend Martin shall come abroad , who now perhaps is hammering some speciall peece of worke , we shall learne from him many new and excellent points . This your first reason seemed very iust in your conceit to maintaine your glorious challenge of disputation , with some of the learned of our Vniuersities . But Campian , you had delt a great deale wiser for your self , if either you had neuer conceiued thes● reasons , or streightway vpon the birth smothered them . For before by your great challenge you begat a maruelous and wonderfull conceit of your selfe in euery mans mind : and now when they shall read● those slender reasons of yours , they will easily perceiue , there is no cause why you should take so much vpon you , and they wil tontemptuously deride you , as you well deserue , & hisse you out of their scholes . Therefore the counsell which Archidamu● gaue to his Sonne headily venturing to right with the Athenians , the same doe our Vniuersitie men giue to to you : Either adde to thy might , or abate of thy mind : for no man , Campian , euer tooke more vpon him , and performed lesse than you haue done . But let vs see what other things you bring vs .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The second Reason , which is the right sense of the Scriptures .

ANother matter that prouoked me to vndertake this enterprize ; and that enforced mee little to feare these my aduersaries slender armies , is the vsuall inclination of my enemie in expounding the Scriptures , full of deceite , and void of wisdome . These things you Philosophers would quickely finde out ; and therefore I was desirous of your audience . Let vs demaund ( for example sake ) of our aduersaries , what caused them to deuise this new opinion , whereby Christ is * * This is false , for we doe not exclude Christ from the Supper . excluded out of the mysticall supper ? If they name the Gospell , we ioyne with them , the very words they are for vs . a a Matth. 26 Mark . 14. Luk. 22. This is my bodie , this is my blood : which words seemed to b b Luther in epist. ad Argen . Luther so forcible , that when he earnestly desired to be of Zuinglius mind , because by that meanes he might haue wrought the Pope most displeasure ; yet notwithstanding he yeelded , being ouercome and vanquished by the most plaine text of Scripture , and as vnwillingly confessed that Christ is truly present in the most holy Sacrament , as the c c Matth. ● . Marke 1. diuels in time past being ouercome with miracles , with outcries confessed that Christ is the sonne of God . Goe to then , the written word doth fauour vs : the controuersie is about the true meaning of the written word . Let vs trie out this by the words thereunto adioyning : d d Luk. 22. Mattb. 22. Corpus meum quod pro vobis datur , sanguis meus , qui pro multis e●lundetur : that is , My bodie which is giuen for you , my blood which shal be shed for many . Yet the matter goeth hard on Caluins side ▪ and maketh very manifestly and plainely for vs . What say they else ? Conferre say they , the Scriptures together . Agreed . The c c Iohn . 6. Matth. 16. Marc. 14. Luc. 22. Gospels make for vs , f f 1. Cor. 10. & 11. S. Paul accordeth also . The words , the sentences , the whole connexion of Scriptures doe often most reuerently repeate the bread and the wine , a not able miracle , heauenly foode , his flesh , his bodie , his blood . Here is nothing figuratiue , nothing obscured by doubtfull speeches : yet notwithstanding the aduersaries stand stiffely in their opinion , and neuer cease wrangling . What shall we then doe ? I hope antiquitie may be heard , and that the reuerend hoare head of Fathers of all former ages , to Christs time more nigh , & farther off from the time of these controuersies , may be their iudgement , determine this debate , which we cannot end amongst our selues , being suspected one of another . * * This is false , for in this controuersie we willingly admit Antiquity as witnesse . They cannot away with that ; they say then they are betraied . They crie out for the sincere and pure word of God : they vtterlie reiect all mens commentaries : trecherouslie and witlesselie done . We will vrge them with the word of God ; they darken it : we call the Saints in heauen for witnesses ; they refuse them . In few words this is their drift , that vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guiltie , there is no iudgement to be had . And so they behaue themselues in euerie controuersie betweene vs . As concerning grace powred into vs from heauen , inherent iustice , the visible Church , the necessity of Baptisme , Sacraments , and sacrifices , meritorious works of good folke ; hope and feare , inequality of offences , the authoritie of S. Peter , the keyes , vowes , Euangelicall counsailes , and other like controuersies , we Catholikes in sundrie of our books , in our mutuall conference , in churches , in schooles haue brought forth many and waightie places of Scripture , and haue both tried and applied the same . They haue scorned at this . We haue alledged the interpretations of the auncient Greeke and Latin Churches ; they haue refused them . What say they then ? marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther , or else M. Philip Melanthon , or certainelie M. Zuinglius , or without doubt M. Caluin , and M. Beza haue faithfullie entreated vpon these matters . Can I imagine any of you to be so stuffed in the nose , that being forewarned , cannot quicklie smell out this subtile iugling ? wherfore I confesse plainlie that I am desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersitie scholes , that after I haue called these Ruffian-like knights out of their dark dennes into the open and plaine field , I may before your eies discomfite them , not by my owne strength , which am not to bee compared with the worst of an hundred of our side , but by the puissance of the cause , and certaintie of the truth which we maintaine .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the second Reason .

WHat could be said touching the Scriptures wee haue heard , wee must proceed to heare what can bee said for the interpretation and exposition of them ; for our vsuall inclination in expounding the Scriptures , ( saith Campian ) hath encouraged and incited him earnestly to desire this encounter . And we also ( Campian ) haue long ago desired to buckle with you herein . And at length the Lord hath brought you out of your lurking holes into the broad light , that we might trie it out with you ; but what is our disposition you speake of ? It is full of deceit , say you , and void of wisdome . Thus you being a man of small reach , and lesse discretion , do conceite our inclination . Assuredly the matter you haue now in hand is a cause of great waight : for the force , the substance , and as it were the soule of the Scripture consisteth in the meaning : very well said Hierome : The Scriptures are not in the letter , but in the vnderstanding : Contra Lucifer . in 1. cap. ad Gila . and in another place : a a DVR . Then Luther and Caluin obtruded a new Gospell vpon the Church ; when they brought in a new sense of the words , such as the whole Christian ●orld knew not ; yea it had a far other sense of the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 138. If this last be graunted you , yet it followeth not that they brought in a new Gospell , because they differed from that sense : for the sense is not to be sought for among the multitude ; but we must looke to the Scriptures and to God speaking in them : as the men of Berea did not take the sense of the most , but searched the Scriptures whether Paul taught things agreeing vnto it . The Gospell is not in the words of the Scripture , but in the sense . They then haue the best end of the staffe , and are the best patrons of Religion and truth , who find out and keepe the true and natural meaning of the Scripture . For the letter or word is plaine ; all controuersies depend vpon the meaning of the Word . The state of the question is then thus , whether of vs twaine haue attained the true and naturall meaning of the Scripture : whether you Iesuits , falsely called Catholikes ; or we , who oppose your opinion and iudgment . First therefore in generall , and in few words we will see what is your opinion and iudgement : then we will answere to your cauils . Now it is most cleere that you make both the Scripture it selfe , and the interpretation of it to depend vpon the authority of the b b DVR . Js it some haynous offence to require the iudgement of the Church in interpreting the Scriptures ? WHIT. pag. 142. We contemne not the iudgement of the Church , but highly esteeme it as profitable to the well interpreting of the Scriptures . But we contemne the iudgment of your Church , which hath not any thing which a true Church should haue . DVR Whither then should we goe to finde the sense ? WHIT. Euen whether Christ biddeth vs , go search the Scriptures , Iohn 5.39 . And this vse they haue , saith S. Paul . 2. Tim. 3.15.16 . Church . And the Church you call not the whole multitude of Christians and faithfull men , but you restraine both the name and nature of the Church vnto your c c DVR . You reprooue vs , that wee giue the interpretation of the Scriptures to Bishops : they verily ought to deliver the true sense they haue receiued from their predecessors to the people . WHIT. pag. 144. S. Paul alloweth all Ministers of the Gospell this power to interpret the Scriptures , 1. Cor. 14.29.30 . who ought aswell to deliuer the true sense , as Bishops . Besides , you must know that the knowledge of t●● Scriptures and the gifts of the spirit are not hereditarie , or to be deliuered from hand to hand . Bishops . But your Bishops may differ touching the sense of the Scriptures , so shall we be vncerteine and shall not resolue which of them to beleeue . But you can helpe this , generall d d DVR . Great and many controuersies haue been decided by Councels . WHIT. pag. 145. It followeth not hereupon , that the interpreting of the Scriptures is to be sought for of them ; or if good Councels by the true interpretation of the Scriptures haue taken away some errors and heresies ; that there●ore all interpretation is theirs , or that we must looke for the same from imp●ous and vnlearned Councels . Councels must decide and determine all questions and controuersies . Shall we then rest in them ? no more then in the other : for the e e DVR . And why not ? seeing no Councell is of any authoritie , which was not confirmed by the Pope ? WHIT. pag. 146. This is false : for the sixt African Councell , and the Calcedon Councell haue their authority without him . And Emperors , Patria●kes , and Bishops haue confinued Councels . And the Councell of Constantinople by letters desired the confirmation of the decrees from Theodosius the Emperor . DVR .. God set ouer the Iewes one High Priest . Deut. 17.11 . Then would Christ neuer neglect his Spouse , but leaue her a chiefe iudge vpon the earth . WHIT. pag. 151. Yet that iudge was to determine according to the Law ; Deut. 17.11 . But the Pope maketh interpretations , not out of the word written , but out of his owne braine . Againe it followeth not , if ouer one little nation God set one chiefe iudge , Christ must set but one ouer the whole world . Besides the Iewish iudge was a type of Christ . Lastly , it followeth not that Chri●● hath left his Church no iudge ; i● he haue not le●t it one only ; for euery Church ha●h her Pastor to teach her , and to d●●ermine questions in her . Pope must be iudge ouer the Councels . So in the conclusion , the whole interpretation of holy Scriptures is transferred to the Pope , and must be fetched out of his brest : yea and as a proper right he so challengeth the power of interpreting of the Scripture , that whatsoeuer he thinketh , that must be accounted the sense and meaning of them . This is your constant and perpetuall propertie and disposition in interpreting the Scriptures , full of dotage , error , and falshood , void of aduise , knowledge and wisdome . For what an absurd and horrible thing is it , that the sense and meaning of the holy Scripture should depend vpon one mans iudgement and voice ? specially being such a one , as commonly the Bishops of Rome haue been , vnlearned , wicked , hereticall . And hence haue proceeded all those goodly interpretations , Take , Eate , that is , you Priests say priuate Masses : Dist. 31. Tenere . Drinke yee all of this , that is , only the Priests must drinke . Be yee holy , for I am holy , f f DVR . Which o● the Popes or what Catholike ●riter euer collected this out of that place ? WHIT. pag. 159. Pope Syricius did first of all so collect : and after him Pope Innocent , as you may reade in Gra●●an Dist. 31. cap. Ten●re ; Dist. 82. cap. prop●suisti : cap. plurimos . therfore it is vnlawful for the Minister of the Word to marry a wife . Giue yee not holy things to dogges , therefore the people must be forbidden to reade the Scriptures . What should I number vp innumerable moe of your interpretations , by which you doe nothing but peruert and wrest the Scriptures ? Is this indeed , Campian , the right interpreting of Scripture ? or must all Christians receiue this exposition as the oracle of God ?

But what should I speake of the constant tenour you keepe in the interpretation of Scripture ? for you make the sense of Scriptures so changeable , so diuerse , and inconstant , like to a nose of waxe and a leaden rule , Pighius . that at all assaies it may euer serue your turne . So writeth g g DVR . Cusanus hath written very rightly , for there are diuers senses of the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 162. What rule then can be more vncerteine then the Scriptures ? or what can be spoken more vilely of the Scripture ? how then is the Scripture one rule ? Phil. 3.16 . how is i● firme induring for euer ? 1. Pet. 1.25 . how no deceitfull ballance . Augus● . d● ▪ Baptis . cont. Don. lib. 2. cap. 6. Nicholas Cusanus , a Cardinall of Rome , Nicol. Cusan . Epist. 2. Epist. 7. to the Bohemians . This vnderstand that the Scriptures are fitted to the time , and diuersely to be vnderstood ; so that at one time they may be expounded according to the common & customable course : but change that , and the sense is changed ; so that it is no maruell if the custome of the Church at one time interpret the Scriptures after this manner , & another time after that . Was there euer the like bouldnes heard of ; that men would wrest the eternall and immutable word of God , which euer hath but one and the same sense , to serue the will of the Church , that is , of the Pope of Rome ? Thom. 1. ● . 1. art. 10. besides this you haue made so many h h DV● . The Fathers and Antiquity haue euer made these foure senses of the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 163. To faine such foure senses in euery sentence differeth not much from a learned kind of madnes . Allegories I confesse many are in the Scriptures , but such as the holy Ghost himselfe hath made ; but to make other Allegories , when the words may be vnderstood without a Trope , or when the Grammaticall sense is not absurd and repugnant to sound doctrine , I thinke is too great bouldnesse and temerity . A Tropologicall sense is not a new sense differing from the Grammaticall , but one ●s it were with it . Finally , if the Fathers as men haue erred , must we needs follow their errors ? The Fathers reiected the errors and false interpretations of their predecessors , why may not we deale so with them ? senses of euery place , to wit , an allegoricall , a tropological , an anagogicall sense , that by your Ledgerdemaine , you haue abolished the true and natiue sense . Now , Campian , since you know that this is the manner of your Church in the interpreting of the Scripture , than which what can be more corrupt , how dare you presume to reprehend our manner of interpretation ? But we follow no other course then that which the Fathers haue prescribed , and which the thing it selfe argues to be most fit . For that is our course which Augustine aduised : we interpret obscure places by those which are plainer , we obserue the phrase and stile of the Scripture , we weigh circumstances , we compare scripture with scripture , we go not one iot from the Analogie of faith . They who take this course , adioyning their harty prayers , that the Lord would open this sealed booke vnto them ; and teach them the true sense of the scripture , shall neuer need to runne to Rome , and enquire of that sacred Oracle of the Pope , who himselfe neither vnderstandeth the true sense of scripture , neither is able to expound them to others .

But to returne now to Campian : what is the vsuall fault he finds in our dealing with the scripture ? and what be the arguments by which he doth confute vs ? Let vs demaund , saith he , ( for example sake ) of our Aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion , whereby Christ is excluded out of the mysticall Supper . We , Campian , do not i i DVR . If you place Christs body and your supper so farre asunder , how do you not exclude him from i● ? WHIT. pag. 168. It is true , if things that are seuered could no way be ioyned but by a corporall ouching ; but without it , it may fitly be , as all beleeuers are ioyned together , though they be farre distant and distracted one from another ; as Iewes , Grecians , and all other godly , make but one body with Christ : what is that bond of this vnion , but the power of the spirit ? Such an vnion is this in the Sacrament , and it hath the some bond . exclude Christ out of the Supper , neither do we otherwise thinke of the Sacrament then both Christ hath taught vs , and the old Church hath prescribed . We certeinly affirme , that the faithfull in the supper receiue whole Christ , God and Man : we beleeue and teach that they eate his body and drinke his blood . Neither doubt we to affirme , but that he , that comes to the supper , and doth not in the supper partake of Christ , that he is in danger of condemnation . Doe we now exclude Christ from the supper ? But whosoeuer includeth Christ in the supper as you doe , he faineth and forgeth a new Christ to himselfe , he confoundeth heauen and eart● together , he offereth violence to nature , and mu●● needs admit innumerable absurdities . Wherfore we following the scripture , as our schole-masters , not taking vp any new opinion , place the naturall and humane body of Christ in heauen ; for so the Apostle Peter speaketh , whom the heauens must conteine , vntill the time that all things be restered ; Act. 3.21 . yet the k k DVR . The● is Christ as present in Baptisme , and in the word , and wheresoeuer your faith seekes for him , as in the supper ; yea as present to the Father● in the old Testament as now to vs . WHIT. pag. 169. So quest●onlesse he is , vnl●sse all men be without hope of life and saluation , who are depriued of the Supper . For John 6.53 . yea all Christians communicate of Christ alike , as well such as come to the supper , as they who cannot partake in it : And that he was present to the Fathers it is proued . 1. Cor. 10.3.4 . vertue , the communion , the benefit of this body we exclude not from the supper : but stifly maintaine , that in the supper whole Christ is present to each mans faith . This is the summe of our opinion , which I no lesse doubt to be the true sense of the scripture , then that Christ is Christ , or that to be scripture which is scripture . This opinion out of all others which we hold , haue you made choice of , as an example to impugne and gain-say : Let vs see now how scholler-like you acquite your selfe . If they name the Gospell , say you , we ioyne with them . The very words make for vs . This is my body , this is my blood : I acknowledge the words do , but I enquire now for the sense of them : whether they should be so expounded as your Church teacheth : that the bread is Transubstantiated into the bodie , and the wine into the blood of Christ : or by a Trope and in a mysticall sense , that the bread is the Sacrament , the signe and symboll of the body , and so the wine of the blood of Christ , as we interpret them . Whether opinion hath more truth in it , we will now discusse . As for that which you tell vs of Luther , I suppose you will not expect any answere from me : and vndoubtedly in this thing Luther was farre more opposite to your opinion , then ours . For he euer condemned your Transubstantiation , as it is , for an accursed inuention and fiction of Satan . Luther we acknowledge was a man , who though he saw the truth in many things , yet he might erre in some things : his good things wee embrace , but wee are bound by no law to defend his errors .

But how shal we find out the meaning of this saying ? Let vs trie out this , say you , by the words thereto adioyning . Nothing can be spoken more truly , nothing more fitly , nor more ingenuously . And verely I could wish you would alwaies doe , as you pretend in this place to doe , sist out the meaning of the scripture by the circumstances of the words . But what are the words adioyning ? My body which is giuen for you , my blood which is shed for you . Campian , you are too sparing and scant in the point : repeate , and say , that which goeth before . As they did eate , Christ tooke bread , he blessed it , he brake it , and gaue it to his disciples , and said , Take , eate , this is my body , and he tooke the cup , and gaue thankes , and gau● it to them saying , Drinke yee all of this , for this is my blood &c. So now , Campian , I will deale with you from the words which are now adioyning . What was it Christ tooke ? you will say bread : what brake he ? bread : what gaue he to his disciples ? bread : wh●● did he bid them take and eate ? bread : what said he was his bodie ? was it any other thing , ●hen the very same bread which he tooke into his hands , brake and l l DVR . He tooke bread , but he gaue not bread to his disciples , but his bodie . WHIT. pag. 183. Then one body of Christ is made two , one sitting among them , another deliuered vnto them ; yea as many bodies as there were Communicants . And the disciples did receiue , chaw , and eate him , whom they saw s●ting with them : but when was the change made ? for before he had spoken these operatiue words , This is my bodie , he brake it & gaue it ●o his disciples : either these words make not the change , or he ga●e to his disciples , bread vnchanged . DVR . ●f there was no change , then the blessing wa● without profit . WHIT. pag. 185. As if all blessings were without profit if they change not the nature of things : God blessed our first parents , Gen. 1.28 . Noah and his Sonnes , Gen. 9.1 Christ his disciples at his departure , Luk. 24.51 . was their blessing without profit , because they changed not their natures and substance ? Besides to blesse is nothing else but to giue thankes , as Luke hath it , which was done by words before , not by those , This is my body . gaue to his disciples . Therfore that when Christ saith . This is my body : this is my blood ; is as much as if he said : This bread is my body , and this cup is my blood . But the bread and the body of Christ , the cup and the blood of Christ , are they not differing , and wel-nigh contrary ? Then tell vs , how they can affirme , or be spoken one of another , vnlesse you will admit a Tropicall speech . Yet , Campian , to vse your owne words , the matter gocth hard on your side , and maketh very plainly and manifestly for vs . For Christ saith plainly that the bread is his body , which cannot be true without a figure , that bread made to eate , should be properly Christs body . And this is that figure which we find so often in the Scriptures , specially when any Sacram●nt is spoken of . So in Genesis cap. 17. the Lord saith of Circumcision m m DV● . This is neither heere , nor any where else to be found in the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 173. Ma●ke well . This is my couenant which you shall keepe , that euery manchild be circumcised : what I pray you is , This , but that euery man-child be circumcised , and ●o you haue it in this place directly : but see , Gen. 17.13 . My couenant shall be in your flesh , what is this but circumcision ? reade Act. 7.8 . DVR . This , signifieth not circumcision , but agreement or couenant betwixt God a●d Abraham touching circumcision . WHIT. That agreemen● , was it the couenant or not ? ●f it was , then see what a goodly sentence you haue made , This my couenant is my couenant . But if it was not : them you must needs acknowledge a Me●●nymy ; that is , that the name of th● thing is giuen to the signe , howsoeuer then it must be vnderstood by a figure . This is the couenant betwixt me and Gen. 17.10 . you . Yet Circumcision was not the couenant , but the signe of the couenant . Now tell vs I pray you , what difference betwixt these two : This is my couenant & this is my body ? The former you cannot deny , but must be vnderstood by a Metonymy : and can any man make doubt , but that the latter likewise is to be so expounded . The like we reade of the Lambe . Exod. 12.11 . n n DVR . These words are not to be found there . WHIT. pag. 174. Obserue the words . Thus shall you eate it , for it is the Lords Passouer . That which was to be eaten is called the Lords Passeouer . Now they we●e commanded to eate the Lambe , reade Exod 12. ve●se 27. 〈◊〉 is the Lords Passeouer . And yet the Lamb was not the Passeouer , but a memoriall of it : like to this is that of S. Paul . o o DVR . There is no figure in the word Christ , but in rocke ; for the rocke was the signe of Christ . WHIT. pag. 175. Then you acknowledge a Metonymy in the word● , because the rock was the Sac●amen● of Christ . And if heere there be a Trope , then why not in these words of this Sacrament ? The rocke was Christ . 1. Cor. 10.1 . Now as the rocke was Christ , so is this mysticall bread the body of Christ . Thus as yet you see the matter is neuer the better on your side ; haue you any thing else ? The Gospell , say you , makes for vs , S. Paul accordeth also . Nay S. Paul vtterly ouerthroweth your opinion : 1. Cor. 11. for when he speaketh of this Sacrament in one continued speech , he vseth the word p p DVR . S. Paul call●th it so because it was now Christ , who wa● the liuing bread . WHIT. pag. 188. many of your fellowes interpret it far otherwise , yea your sh●●t S. Paul ouerthroweth , 1. Cor. 10.16 . The bread which we breake , is it not the Comunion of the body of Christ ? Now not Christ was broken but the bread . bread , foure seuerall times , and that after Consecration ; so that it appeareth ▪ ●earely to haue the proper nature of bread , though it be said to be the body of Christ . But yet you adde : The words , the sentences , the whole conuection of Scripture , doe often most reuerently repeate the bread , the wine , a notable miracle , heauenly food , his flesh ▪ his bodie , his blood . In good earnest you discourse of these things with great reuerence and shamefastnes . For you would proue that in this Sacrament , there remaineth neither bread nor wine , but certeine qualities of these things , hanging in the ayre , and void● of the things themselues . And for any notable miracle , I acknowledge none , but answere you with Austen . They may be honoured as religious things , De Trinit. lib. 3. c. 10. but they cannot be wondred at as q q DVR . Augustine speaketh of thes● miracles which are made of a bodily substanc● , and so are sensible : now no such thing is seene in the Eucharist . WHIT. pag. 191. But if there were a true miracle , it would be sensible , and haue the witnesse of the senses , as all oth●r miracles of the Scriptures haue . For thing● that are hid ( saith Augustine ) are not miracles . He writ three bookes of the miracles of the Scriptures , in which he hath not spoken one word of this miracle . Therefore he knew not the Popish Transubstantiation . minacles . No man euer denied , but that in the Sacrament heauenly food is both prepared , and offered to all the godly . But those heauenly and holy banquets , whereby our soules are nourished vp to eternall life , you make prophane and common , when you imagine , that Christ may be receiued and eaten like other meates , aswell of the r r DVR . Not we , but the Scripture , the Fathers , and reason it selfe doth affirme it , but speciallie S. Paul . 1. Cor. 11.27 . Whosoeuer eateth this bread . WHIT. pag ▪ 195. None of these affirme it , and least of all S. Paul ; for he saith not , whosoeuer eateth the body of Christ , but whosoeuer eateth this bread . wicked , as of the most deuout men in the world ; which is an horrible opinion , senselesse and vnsound . For that you adde of flesh , body , and blood , I confesse : for being the Sacraments of these things , they haue their names giuen vnto them : for signes of things ( saith Augustine ) are said to be the things of which they are signes . But , say you , heere is nothing figuratiue , nothing obscure by doubtfull speeches . True it is there is neuer a riddle in the words , no obscuritie . For the obscurity that is , is not in the words , but in your interpretation of them , which ten Apolloes cannot so vnfold and open , that things might agree and answere fitly one to another .

What resteth yet , is it not that at length wee find out some certeine and true sense of these words ? I hope , say you , Antiquitie may be heard . I verily in this controuersie will reiect no Antiquitie , no Councell , no auncient Father , neither will I refuse any monument of true Antiquitie . For that same reuerend hoarie head of Fathers which you speake of , could neuer come to the knowledge of this new doctrine of Transubstantiation lately hatched . If those holy Fathers and reuerend Elders did now liue , they would neuer acknowledge this monster , nor indure the sight of it , but iudge it worthy to be abandoned into the vtmost parts of the world . Whereas then you say , They cannot away with that , They say then they are betrayed . You trifle and say nothing to the purpose : for we can away well with this triall , and feare no treachery in it . But will call you very willingly to this reuerend Antiquitie , as to a barre of triall . Therefore if you please we will demaund of those reuerend Fathers , what they iudge to be the meaning of those words , which you haue produced for example sake . And seeing there is no necessity to collect all their sayings , some few of them shall speake , to giue vs a tast of the rest . s s DVR . Tertullian speaketh not of that bread , which Christ in his last supper made his body , but of another bread , which was the figure of his body vnd●r the law . WHIT. pag. 2●0 . The pla●e sheweth very plainly that he speaketh of no other bread , then of tha● which Christ had said , this is my body : and which , in the night he was betrayed , he tooke , brake , and gaue to his disciples . Tell vs where vnder the law Christ euer said thus , or did thus with any bread ? DVR . Bread & wine in the old Testament were Figures of Christs body & blood : therfore in the new Testament of the bread must the true body of Christ be made , & of the v●ine his blood . WHIT. pag. 202. It will well follow from this , that Christ must haue in the new Testament a true body & true blood : but it cannot be inforced hereupon , that it must be made of bread & wine . As if because their Sacramen●s were figures , the●fore ours must be transubstantiated into the things themselues . Then will it follow , that because the flood , the ●edsea , & the cloud were types of our Bap●isme , therefore it should not be a figure or a signe , but be turned into th● very blood of Christ . Tertullian saith , Tertul. lib. 4 contra Marc. Christ professed his desire to eate the Pass●ouer , as his owne , and hauing taken bread , and distributed it to his disciples , hee made it his bodie , by saying ▪ this is my body , that is , the figure or signe of my body . You acknowledge both Tertullians words and his meaning . t t DVR Augustine signifieth the Sacrament by the name of figure . WHIT pag 204. It is true , Christ gaue the Sacrament to his di●ci●les ▪ but Augustine vseth not the word Sacrament , but figure : to shew that as no figu●e or signe is the thing wherof it is a fi u●e : so the bread is not properly the body , nor the w●ne the blood of Christ . Augustine saith , August . in Psal. 3. Christ admitted Iudas to that banquet , in which he commended to his disciples the figure of his body and blood . In another place also . u u DVR Augustine disputeth in this p●ace against the Ma●●chees , carp●ng at Moses words . The blood is the soule of the beast . And saith , it is so spoke , as the Sacrament of the body of Christ is called his body , the blood is called the soule , because it is as the signe of the soule , which lieth hid in the blood , as the Sacramet is the signe of the body of Christ , which is conteined in it WH T pag. 206. Nay I infer the contrary as the soule is not the blood , when it is o●● of the vaines , & may be eaten ; so Christ is not in the Sacrament . And as the blood is the signe of the soule , which is not in it : so is the Sacrament of the bodie which is not conteined in it . The Lord verily doubted not to speake thus . Contra. Adimant . cap. 12. This is my body , when he gaue the signe of his body . And that you may vnderstand , that this was Augustines perpetuall tenor in interpreting of these words , and that he determined farre diuerse to you touching the eating of Christs flesh : heare what he saith in his bookes of Christian Instruction , where he giueth diuers precepts for the vnderstanding of the phrase of the Scriptures . If , saith he , any sentence there seeme to commaund any impious act , De doctr. Christ . lib. 3. cap. 16. or to forbid any duty tending to the profit or good of others , it is a figuratiue speech ; vnlesse , saith Christ , you eate the flesh of the Son of man , and drinke his blood , you haue no life in you : It seemeth to inioyne an * * DVR Augustine did not thinke that it was an heynous thing , to eate the flesh of Christ , but to eate 〈◊〉 ( as the Capernites thought ) that is , torne and rent in peeces . WHIT. pag. 209. You answere somewhat as touching the fact , but nothing for the figure . But Augustine saith there is a figure , which cannot be , if the flesh of Christ be either eaten , as you say , whole , or chopt in peeces , as the Capernites affirme . And if it be an horrible fact to eate the smale parts of Christs bo●ie , is it not a more beastly & bloody thing to deuoure the whole body of Christ at one mor●el● ? DVR . It is no more heynous for a Christian to eate the flesh of Christ whole , then it was for the blessed Virgin to conceiue & to nourish it in her wombe . WHIT. pag. 211. What is this , but as if you had said , It is no heynous thing to conceiue and bring forth an Infant : Therfore it is none to deuoure it after it is borne . heynous act . It is therefore a figuratiue speech , commanding vs to communicate in the Passion of the Lord . Doe you thinke this reuerend old man dotes , or hath he not giuen a iudicious interpretation , wel agreeing vnto the iudgement of the auncient ? I thinke matters yet goe worse on your side , then they did before : but perhaps you will say , these are too auncient to serue your turne , heare then some of latter times . Theod. Theodoret a Gretian and a learned man writeth thus in his Dialogue● x x DVR Theodorets meaning is , that the signes haue not lost their naturall properties , though their nature be changed . WHIT. pag. 214. If the naturall properties remaine , then certeinly their natures must , for esse●t●all properties can neuer be separated from ●heir natures : yea in the words following in this very place , Theodoret affirmeth , that the nature remaineth . The mysticall bread , saith he , remaineth in the nature it first had , in the figure , and in the forme . Mysticall signes doe not lose their proper nature . This very speech quite ouerthroweth your Transubstantiation , for if their proper nature remaine , without doubt nothing can be Transubstantiated or changed . Now the bread keepeth his proper and old nature , therefore there can be no Transubstantiation : but I will ioyne to Theodoret Marcarius ; whose homilies Morelius had out of the Kings Librarie , and hath published them in Greeke : and I suppose that you being a Frier , will not reiect the testimony of so auncient a Monke : he writeth thus . In the Church , saith he , Marcar . homil. is offered bread and wine , y y DVR . An antitype or resemblance of the type is not the type or figure , but the substance signified by that type or figure . WHIT. pag. 217. An antitype is neuer properly the substance of the type , though sometime it be another type answering to it , and both of them are but similitudes & figures of the substance . And sometimes a type and an antitype are both one and the same : as Heb. 9.24 . The Tabernacle is called an antitype of heauen , being the substance signified by the Tabernacle and no answering type to the Tabernacle . And in this sense doe diuers of the Fathers vse the word Antitype : as Basil , Nazianzen , Theodoret , Chrysost. antitypes or resemblances of his body and blood . What , saith he , bread and wine ? but bread is already turned into flesh , and wine into blood . Ought a Monke to speake after this manner ? giue you them so slender a name , as similitudes ? Pardon mee , Campian , this Monke was neuer vsed to speake after your manner , neither was your Transubstantiation as yet come abroad ? what say you now ? are you pleased with this reuerend hoare head of the Fathers ? If you rest not heere , it shall be free for you to appeale to any one of the whole reuerend company of the holy Fathers ; not one of them , no not any one of them , do I except against . For I make no doubt , but if they may be iudges , you shall euer haue the worst . From henceforth therefore do not cast any such calumni●●ions vpon vs , and boast your selfe of the bare names of the Fathers ; for the Fathers both in this controuersie and in many others are firme on our side . As for the Fathers of whom you name many , but I beleeue haue read but a few , I thus answere you . We are not the seruants of the Fathers , but the sonnes . When they prescribe vs any thing out of the Law and diuine authoritie , we obey them , as our parents . If they inioyne any thing against the voyce of the heauenly truth , we haue learned not to harken to them , but to God . You as Vassals and base seruants receiue whatsoeuer the Fathers saie , without iudgement or reason , being affraid , as I think , either of the whippe , or the halter , if euery thing they speake be not Gospell with you .

In few words , say you , this is their drift , vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement , that are guilty , there is no iudgement to be had . Verily this fits you a great deale better then vs , for you will receiue no iudgement but the iudgement of the Pope , and Church of Rome ; which Church and Pope wee haue proued long agoe to be guilty of most heynous crimes , and there hath been a perpetuall variance betwixt him and vs . Is there any equity then in your demaunds that we should stand to his iudgement , who 〈◊〉 both a person guilty , and an aduersarie to vs ? And well should we deserue to lose the cause , if we would be so witlesse contenders . Much truer speaketh Augustine , Let one matter encounter with another , Contra Maxim. lib. 3. c. 14. one cause with another , one reason with another , by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures , which are not proper to either side , but common z z DVR . How foolishly do you alledge Augustine , who maketh the Scripture a witnes of the truth , not a iudge , as you would haue it . WHIT. pag. 243. If the Scripture be the witnes , where shall we find a iudge answerable to this witnes ? Is it the Church ? Then must it be of more authority then the Scripture , which heere you affirme not , neither may it be granted ; for the Scripture is the word of God , therefore he that is the iudge of it , must be the iudge of God himselfe . To deny the Scriptures then the preheminence in iudging , is to thrust God out of his throne Therefore as God , so the Scripture the word of God , hath the authoritie both of a witnesse and a iudge . DVR . Augustine euer thought , that the Popes iudgement was the highest tribunall ●pon earth , where all controuersies must be decided . WHIT. pag. 244. Augustine neuer thought so , but writ the contrary De ciuitat Dei lib. 15. ●ap . 3. The Lord , saith he , hath penned the Scripture , which is call●d Canonicall , because it is of highest authoritie , yea hee neuer once pressed the Arrians , either with the authoritie of the Pope , or of the Councell , which vndoubtedly he would haue done , neither could he haue done better , if the highest iudgement had been in the Church . witnesses for both . And to their iudgements would we haue you to stand , not ours . As for other things you speake of , I passe them ouer , for you will reserue them for vs till another place ; and wheras you say , you haue cited many and worthy places of Scripture , we haue weighed those places in their ballances , and haue found them to light to proue what you proposed . And it is your vse indeed , rather to take them by number , then by weight . But you charged vs with scorning at this and shifting them off , we did nothing lesse ; all we did was to free them from your cauils . We haue , say you , alledged the interpretations of the Greeke and Latin Churches . I confesse it , but we haue wrung all those weapons from you , and haue by them battered all your holds . But say you , what say they then ? marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther , or M. Philip Melangthon , or certeinly M. Zuinglius , or without doubt M. Caluin , and M. Beza , haue faithfully intreated vpon those matters . Tell vs , Frier , what should hinder , why euery one of these you haue nominated , may not as faithfully intreate of th●se things , as those who haue liued before them in ages past ? what wanted they , which the other had ? what skill of art , what knowledge of the tongues , what other helpes ? there is not any one of these , but hath far surpassed in learning , and all deserued commendation , the whole society of Iesuits .

But why doe I compare these burning lights , bright starres of piety and religion , with the base scumme of your Doctors ? and this now is another of your reasons , why you were so desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersity Schooles . If you be , Campian , sodesirous , as you would make the world beleeue , I maruell why you are so long a comming : for our schooles were euer open for you , but you could neuer find the way into them . If you hereafter come , you shall find many in our schooles , that will encounter with you in all kind of learning . And heere you end your discourse of the right sense of the Scriptures .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The third Reason , which is the nature of the Church .

SO soone as the Aduersarie heard the Church named , hee waxed wanne : yet notwithstanding hee hath deuised one thing , which I would wish you to note well ; that thereby you may perceiue , the ruine and hard shifts of falsehood . The enemie perceiued that both in the a a Apoc. 2. Psal. 7. Isay q. & 32. Cant. 6. old and new b b Mat. 13. Ephes. 5. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. 3. Ioan. 15. Matth. 16. Matth. 18. Testament , there is euery where * * The scripture maketh honorable mention of the Church , therefore the Romane Church is that true Church of Christ , of which the Scripture speaketh so ●●ten . honorable mention made of the Church , and that it is called a holy citie , a fruitfull vineyard , an high hill , a direct path , the only doue , the kingdome of heauen , the spouse and bodie of Christ , the pillar of truth , the multitude vnto which the holy Ghost being promised , powreth all things needfull to saluation . The congregation , against all which the gates of hell shall neuer so preuaile , that they shall vtterlie extinguish the same . The congregation , which who so repugneth , though he confesse Christ with his mouth , yet hath he no more to doe with Christ , then hath a Publican and heathen man . He durst not say any thing against this openly , neither would hee seeme to gain-say that Church , whereof the Scriptures so often make mention . He kept craftily still , the name of the Church , but the thing it self by describing it , he * * This is false , for your definition maketh a true Church took quite away . For he hath portraied the Church with such properties as doe altogether hide it and make it , as if it were Plato his Idea ; c c Caluin . Jnst. lib. 4. cup. 1. Num. 2.3 . Apoc. 1.2 3. vnapt to be seene with the senses , but subiect to the priuy insight and speculation of a very few men , such onely as by speciall inspiration , might in their imagination comprehend this arrie bodie , and could likewise with a sharpe eye discerne such as are members of this chosen societie , what is become of truth ? where is plaine dealing ? what Scriptures ? what iust iudgmentes , what Fathers describe the Church in this sorte ? * * Particular Churches are visible : therefore the Catholik Church is visible . There are Epistles in the Apocalyppes of S. Iohn written by d d Act. 8.10.11 . & seq . Christ himselfe to the seauen Churches which were in Asia . There are also diuerse Epistles written by S. Peter , S. Paul , S. Iohn . and by others vnto sundry Churches . In the Actes of the Apostles , we finde mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged : what were those ? were they knowne to God onelie , and to his Saintes , or also to all sortes of Christians ? But truly necessitie is a deadly dart ; pardon them : for they that all these * * This is false , our doctrine hath been deriued from Christ himselfe vnto vs , by the faithfull of all ages . 1500 yeeres cannot spie out so much , as one time , one village , one house embrued with their doctrine , vntill that vnhappie e e Lutherus . Moncke by his incestuous marriage had destoured a Nunne , dedicated to God by former solemne vowe : or vntill that quarrelling Swizer f f Zuinglius . had conspired against his countrie : or vntill that infamous runagate g g Caluinus . had vndertaken an vsurped authoritie in Geneua . If they will haue any Church at all , they must needes fetch the same out of blind corners , and challenge those for their ancestors , whom they neither knew themselues , neither any mortall man hath seene , except they brage of such forefathers , who were manifest heretiques , as Aerius , Iouinianus , Henri . Pantal . in Chrenogra . Heluidius , Vigillantius , the Image breakers , Berengarius , Waldensis , Lothardus , Wyclife , Husse , of all which they haue begged some peices of their diuelish doctrine . Maruaile not though I haue not feared these smoders , which if I shall once come to the cleare light , I shall easily expell . For this is our speech together . Tell me , dost thou beleeue as the Church doth , which flourished these many hundred yeeres past ? Yea verilie : let vs therefore discourse of our countries and times ; what Church dost thou beleeue ? The congregation of the faithfull , whosenames are vnknowne , but it is apparant that many such haue been : Is it apparant that manie such haue been . To whom it is apparant ? To God ; who saith so ? we that haue receiued our doctrine from God himselfe . This is a loude lie , how may I beleeue it ? If thou were feruent in faith , thou should know this as assuredlie , as thou dost that thou art aliue : Can you refraine laughing when you heare such foolish answers ? All Christian people are commannded to cleaue fast vnto the Church , they are warned to take heed , lest they be slaine with the spirituall sword : they are bid keepe peace in the house of God : to commit their soules in trust vnto this pillar of truth , there to make all their complaints to take for heathen all such as are cast out of this Church : and yet all that , haue so many men , so manie hundred yeeres , been ignorant , where that Church is , or who belong vnto it ; will they in darkenesse still stand vpon that point ? that where or in what place soeuer the Church is , there are contained therein , onely saints , and such as are predestinate to goe to heauen : whereby it falleth out that if any man will refuse to obey his prelate , he may thinke himselfe to be blamelesse in so doing : if hee perswade himselfe that his said prelate hath committed any great offence , & by that meanes is excommunicated out of the Church . When I perceiued that my aduersaries inuented such deuises , and that they would not associate themselues to any Church , that heretofore hath been : and that when they were quite depriued of the thing it selfe , they would needes ( though with much adoe ) keepe still the bare name in possession , I solaced my selfe , with the hope I conceiued of your ripe iudgements , yea and I nothing doubted , but that assoone as you should find out euen by their owne confessions , these their iugling trickes , you would straightwaies , like plaine honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares , framed of set purpose to worke your ouerthrow .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the third Reason .

WHat is it , Campian , you further bring vnto vs ? you propound vnto vs the nature of the Church , wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vaine and childish oratorie , neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuersitie men , or answerable to the opinion that is held of you . As touching the Church there are many questions and great controuersies , and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head . For your a a DVR . Jt is well , that once you will acknowledge vs to be Catholiks . WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name , my meaning is to giue it you no otherwise , them vsually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes , where nothing is but skinne and bone . He is a Catholike , not who followeth the popish Apostasie , but that professeth the doctrine of Christ . Catholikes being tossed with the boysterous stormes of other disputations , haue been willing to take b b DVR . Is it so great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church ? WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for , but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church . And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture , reproue and refell your heresies , you cry out you are the Church , and by that thinks to defend all things , though they be neuer so absurde . harbor in this hauen of the Church . Here they dwell , here they place all their hopes of safety and victorie , heere they hide themselues , whensoeuer they are beaten out of the field . Therefore they fortifie this sconce with all the skill they can , and strengthen it with munition on all sides ; for which cause I maruell so much the more to find you , from whom so great things are expected , in this controuersie to be so sleight and shallow ; for you neither teach , nor conclude , nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours , which hath in it either forceable reason or proofe . But it may be this is but your first skirmish , you will happely afterwards deale with vs hand to hand ; yet I wil trace you out in your owne steps , that I may lay hold of you , if happely I may find you any where certeine .

So soone , say you , as the aduersarie heard the Church but named , he waxed wanne : yea Campian , it made him blush , when he perceiued so chast & holy a matron , so impiously & insolently to be abused by you . The Church doth euer expell you , and deny al commerce with you . Yet you as very audacious & importunate wooers giue not ouer your suite to compasse her . Sure there was no cause why your aduersary should wax so wanne , vnlesse he feared some euill measure from such cutthroats as you are . Yet notwithstanding , say you , he hath deuised one thing , which I would wish you to note well . You will sure acquaint vs with some great and vnheard of matter ; verily I much desire to know what is this one thing : yet I feare it will proue starke nothing ; and for all your throes , you wil bring forth but a mouse . As for the honorable praises of the Church , you mention , we both acknowledge those , and speake far greater things of it : but verily they agree not to your Church at all ; for it is the Babylonish whoore , a branch cut off from the true Vine , a denne of theeues , a broad way leading to destruction , the kingdome of hell , the body of Antichrist , a sinke of errors , a great mother of fornications , the Church of the wicked , out of which euery Christian ought to depart , which Christ shal one day fearefully destroy , and giue her the iust recompence of all her sinnes . In vaine then do you reckon vp the praises of the Church , vnlesse you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church , which you shall neuer be able to doe , so long as Rome standeth . He would not , say you , seeme to gain-say the Church , hee kept craftily still the name of the Church , but the thing it selfe by his definition he tooke quite away . We verily , Campian , c c DVR . Why do you not then defend her authoritie , but diminish and lessen it , yea and horriblie blaspheme , affirming that the spouse of Christ may erre and be deceiued ? WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme , making the Church equall to God , to whom it is only peculiar not to erre , not be deceiued . For the Church may erre though she be his Spouse , but not persist in any deadly error : as the Church of the Apostles did , when shee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world , yea and after shewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles . reuerence and honor the Church , as our mother , and in our definition wee both retaine the name , and cleerely set out the nature of the thing it selfe . But you hauing lost the Church long since , do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church . Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you ; why I pray you ? because we describe the Church by those properties which doe altogether darken and hide it . Wee ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church , whose presence make a Church , and their absence marre or destroy a Church . But what are those properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church ? we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church , to d d DVR . The Church is not to be sought for by these , as by notes , but they are to be learned from the Church . WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached , but in the Church , nor the Sacraments purely administred , that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then ? Yea the contrary followeth , because they are not elsewhere but in the Church : therefore by these notes the true Church is to be knowne and demonstrated . For if only Peripatetians professe the Philosophy of Aristotle , then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians , and distinguisheth them from all other sects of Philosophers . DVR . Thus to search out the Church , is but to secke out one vnknowne thing by another , which is more vnknowne . WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture were more hidden and vnknowne then the Church , and the Scripture could better bee knowne by the Church , then it by the Scripture : vndoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church ; and then is a ting hknowne , when the cause is knowne . 2. I here are many and diuers Churches , but there is but one constant Scripture alwaies like it selfe . 3. If at any time there was euer doubt made of the Scripture ; yet there haue been many moe questions and doubts concerning the Church . Lastly the Scripture is called a Canon , a rule ; now the rule as it is straighter , so is it more certeine then the thing that is squared by it . DVR . The notes of the Church ought to be such , as are agreed vpon among all , as are proper to it , neither can be challeng●d probablie by any other Church . WHIT. pag. 356. I conf●sse as much , and such are our notes in all things ; whereas yours , are nothing leste . DVR . But euery sect layeth claime to your notes . WHIT. pag. 256. What then , what if you lay claime to the things I possesse , are they therfore not mine owne ? Be it that heretikes do lay claime to the Scriptures , yet they doe it without all shew of reason , and out of the Scriptures only can they be confuted . heare the word of Christ , and keepe it , to vse wholly and purely those Sacraments , which Christ , when hee departed from his Church , left her , as a pledge of his loue to her , and as a proofe of her loyalty to him . These we maintaine as the most true and substantiall properties of the Church , and this definition , made of the naturall and inbred principles and grounds of the thing , which we define , you shall neuer bee able to ouerthrow . I pray you what is there heere that hideth the Church ? doth the word of God ; do the Sacraments hide the Church ? yea these are they that make the c c DVR . Why say you then that your Church lay hid for so many yeares together ? WHIT. pag. 260. Our Church did neuer lie so hid , but it was discerned by your Pope , vnlesse for so many yeares he persecuted shadowes . Church appeare as cleere as any thing at noone day , these giue vnto the Church strength , health and beauty : abolish these , there will remaine nothing but the carkase of the Church . What drowsie dreame then is this , you tell vs of an airy body ? as if we denied that the Church could be found on the earth ; wee neuer doubted but the Church euer hath been , and euer shal be vpon the earth : though we also grant that the sight of it being sometime so cleere that it may be seen of all : at another time is so obscured & euer shadowed , that one can hardly know it . But no Church pleaseth you , saue that which is continually flourishing , and which is visible to all mens eies , which hath a continuall succession of Bishops to be fetched from the beginning , and which is subiect to the Pope . Now Campian , as for you , you come to late to tell vs of these frantike popish dreames ; wee haue heard , discussed , and distolued them , aboue a thousand times . Doe you thinke you are able to make vs beleeue , that the state of the Church is such , that it cannot be hid , that treachery should preuaile nothing against it , an open enemy nothing , Antichrist himselfe nothing ? These can neuer quite ouerthrow the Church , they may driue it to straits and thrust it into corners . August . 4.8 . Augustine compareth the Church to the Moone , which sometime while it is inlightned by the Sunne-beames , shineth out , a● another time it is depriued of the greatest part of the light , and sometime shineth not at all . So the Church sometime shineth most brightly , sometime is more obscured , sometime hardly appeareth , and her whole course is continually gayning and losing of light .

Will you that I manifest it to you by examples ? while Dauid and Salomon raigned , the Church flourished in Israell ; but when Ahab raigned , the face of the Church was so far obscured , that the most diuine Prophet f f DVR . Elias spake not of the whole Church , but of the kingdome of Israell , wherein he liued . WHIT. pag. 261. He liued at that time , not in the kingdome of Israell , but in the mountaine of God , Mount Horeb. 1. King . 19.8 . But grant he spake of Israell only : it is no lesse for our purpose . For that which hapned there , that no good men appeared , though many lay hid , so it may fall out in other churches , and at other times , that none or few of the faithfull appeare ; yet God may haue a multitude of vnknowne beleeuers . Eliah complained that there was not one remaining saue himselfe . If there could be such a hauocke made of the Church , 1 King . 14.10 . hhm . 10.3 . that of all that great number of the godly , there was scarce one to be seene , ( though there was a good summe remaining of them . ) it need be no wonder that in the kingdome of Antichrist , who surpasseth all Ahabs and Iezabels in all brabarous cruelty , that the Church should be so wasted , that there should appeare a maruellous scarcity of faithfull men . And yet could Antichrist in that great hauocke of religion and the Church , neuer so far preuaile , but there was a remanant of many thousand thousands of Saints , who neuer bowed their knees to the beast , neither euer receiued the marke of the beast . Let vs passe along to those times when Christ liued vpon the earth , and consider the state of the Church of Ierusalem . For no Church can be more like to the Church of Rome , then that , as the state of it was , when Christ did performe the worke of our saluation . They had the Scripture , they were a people zealous of the law , they had the Temple , they had Leuits , Priests , yea a high Priest ; what was wanting here to make a perfect Church ? Christ at length sheweth himselfe openly , and bringeth that happie message of saluation ; this very Church hated , persecuted , cursed , and in the end killed this Christ , the Son of God , the lagat of his Father , the teacher of celestiall doctrine ; the author of our saluation . This Church then , Campian , was it a true Church or no , what think you ? If it was , then the true Church hated Christ , and iudged him worthy of death . If it was not , then where and what is the true Church ? for Christ at the first had a very smale number , that if you answere g g DVR . The Church vndoubtenly was in Christ and his Apostes . WHIT. pag. 262. See then what followeth for our aduantage ; it it so fell out that the true Church was not amongst them who had a lawfull succession ordeined of the Lord ; who also had the place , the name , the dignity , and magnificent ornaments of the Church ; but it was in a few , who after a sort were cut off from the Church , it is a thing without question , that the Church is not alwaies to bee sought for in a visible multitude , and an outward succession of men : but often times in obscure places , and amongst a very few . Christ and his company was the Church , then you fall into that crime , which you reproue vs for . If then this might befall the h h DVR . That which befell the Synagogue of Hierusal●●● , cannot befall to the Church of Christ , whieth the Prophets haue plainly foretold should neuer perish . Isay . 19.21 . Icrem . 31.31 . Eze● . 37.26 . WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Hierusalem was not the Church of Christ ? what then happened vnto it , which may not befall my others ? And for the Prophesies you recier , they belong to the company of the elect , and not to your popish Church to which the Lord neuer promised any such thing . Christ verily will neuer endure that his Church should be abolished or perish : but it is one thing for it to perish , and another to lye hid for a time , and not to bee seene ; he hath promised it shall euer be preserued , not that it shall euer be visible and glorious . DVR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world . WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall neuer be hid , nor shut vp in a few ? nothing lesse : for hee hath promised that wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in his name , he will be in the middest of them . Church of Hierusalem , that though it had , and by continued succession inioyed the name of the Church , yet in very truth it was nothing else but a caue and denne of theeues : I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it selfe , why it may not be said long agot to haue lost the body of the Church , though it keepe still the visard , the name , and the vestments of the Church . What if the Romish Church condemned Luther ? shall we say therefore Luther is an heretike , and that it is the Catholike Church ? The Church of Ierusalem condemned Christ , and him and his they would haue denied to be the true Church , if by any colour they could , that they might free themselues out of those straights , they were brought into . But happily they will say , there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church . 2. Thess. 2. But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasie , that should be before Christs comming to iudgement , i i DVR . The Fathers haue vnderstood the place of Antichrist , or of a defection from the Romane Empire . WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hierusalem ( a man you much esteeme ) Catech. 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasie from the true faith , so doth Chrysostome , Oecumenius , so many others . Yea your Diuines of Rhemes haue so expounded it . which Apostafie is from religion and the Church , as the most auncien● Fathers do vnderstand it : and Christ prophesied euidently of the small number of his . Luke . 18.8 . When the Soune of man shall come shall he find k k DVR . Augustine de vultat . Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith , WE vnderstand this speech , either for the perfection of faith , or for the multitude of the wicked , or for the small number of the good . So doth Hierome contr. Luciferano● . WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistooke the place , must we rest in their exposition ? we haue Nazianzene cont. Arran . Theophyla . in 28. Luc. Caietan vpon this place against them : nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked , and the small number of the good , doth he not defend our opinion , that the number of the wicked shall be great , but of the godly small ? faith on the earth ? If hardly any faith shal remaine on the earth , and the Church cannot be said to be a Church , but improperly without faith , it followeth necessarily that when Christ commeth , their number shall be very small , who may truly be called the Church . You haue now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vnto vs , vnlesse you thinke your selfe better able to puttray it , then the holy Ghost himselfe could do , who hath set out the Church in farre better colours and manner , then I find yours to be , in which there is nothing left but painted walles . But , say you , there are Epistles of Christ written to the seauen Churches which were in Asia ; there are also diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter , S. Paul , S. Iohn , and by others vnto sundrie Churches ; in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged . What then , Campian , what think you may be inferred hereupon ? These were not knowne to God only , but also to all Christians : who euer denied that ? These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians , Philippians , Thessalonians , Colossians , to which Paul writ , were particular visible Churches . Did we euer seeme to make question whether a Church might be visible or no ? we verily call all those visible and apparant Churches , which professe the pure word of God and hold those rights and Sacraments which are commaunded by Christ . And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England , Scotland , Germanie , Fraunce , and other parts of Christendome , though it greeue you Iesuits they should be so visible and apparant . But what kind of reasoning is this ? l l DVR . All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church consisteth , as on parts , are visible : therefore the Catholike Church it selfe is visible . WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike , are not visible : because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only , but of Churches of the times past , and of those which shall be in the time to come . But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only , yet it followeth not that it must be visible : nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible , it cannot , for when all the parts are growen into o●● , then is the whole visible , but not each seuerall part ; so when the seuerall parts may be seene , the whole cannot be seen , because the parts are no●●ow become one . So the contrary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible , the whole cannot be seene . Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible : therefore the Catholike Church is euer visible . Haue you learned such Logicke as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of Iesuits ? or doe you , Campian , thinke that these manner of Allegations should goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuersity men ? but where are those Churches now , which were then so flourishing ? Shew me the Church of Ephesus , Smyrna , Pergamus , Corinthes , and the rest . Now they are no where to be seene , and are no longer Churches . And that which we haue seen already befal those Churches , teach vs , I pray you , how it may not also betide the Church of Rome ? And though Rome become a heap , yet the Church shall be safe : neither shal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to abolish it . And at this day there are many flourishing Churches , which are equall to your falsly called Catholike Church , for the number , & vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold .

But you say , That for 1500. yeares we could not spie out one towne , one village , one house seasoned with our doctrine . Nay , Campian , that is very false , m m DVR . The Arrians , M●●cedonians , and all other auncient heretikes may by the same probability say as much . WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures , they may answere the same which we doe , for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine , may professe that all cities , village● , 〈◊〉 which were religous , were seasoned with their doctrine . for in the Apostles time , all Churches , all cities , all townes , euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe . After that by little and little , the purity of doctrine n n DVR . Tell me then from whom , and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church . WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift , that we may see it hath moued , though we cannot discerne the mouing of it : so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall ; but the time when , and the manner how they were brought in , is not much to our purpose . And it were too long to tell all , yet heare some , Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops th●ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church . After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces , when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes , after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches , and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice : but he was repressed by the African Councell . Then Gregory the great , greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople , because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop , and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist . Lastly , Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide . And since that hee grew to that height , that hee made not only Churches and Kings , but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete . But see another example . Time was when there were no images in Churches : As that of Epiphanius proueth , who rent a vaile in peeces , because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint . But in time they were receiued into the Church , but no honor giuen them : yet after that , good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe ; as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did , whom he thus checketh for it . In that you forbad them to be worshipped , wee commend you , but that you brake them , we reprehend you . Gregor. regist. lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed , that they were not to be broken , yea that they were religiously to be worshipped . And thus hath it succeeded in other things , as S. Paul did foretell●e saying ; The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke . 2. Thess. 2.7 . began to be corrupted , and diuers superstitions spread far and neare ; though the holy Fathers did as much as they could , resist , 2. Thess. 2.7 . vntill that mystery of iniquitie , which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time , spread it selfe o o DVR . What can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious . WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously , when he did so ●●●ell of a departing , and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God . Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church ? by all the parts of the Church , and at length possessed it wholy . Yet Antichrist that man of sinne , could neuer preuaile so farre , but a great multitude of the Saints remained ; and those , whose names were written in the booke of life , did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked superstitions of Antichrist . For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it , yet many were euer found , who worshipped the God of their Fathers , and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie . And this can histories of all times witnesse , which I could now recite if it were needful , and reckon vp to you , many houses , villages , townes , cities , and countries , where Christ had many and populous Churches . The p p DVR . This is very false , for in the Florentine Councell the Emperour Paleolus , together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ , and imbraced the Romane faith , yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things , as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written . WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes , or why obey they not the Pope ? why came they not to the Councell of Trent ? the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue them subiect to him , but they stil contemne him to his no small griefe . It is true , the Emperour , the Patriarke , and a multitude of Bishops came to the Florentine Councel . They agreed with them in many things , ●●●hers they dissented ; your Transubstantiation they vtterly renounced . At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died . Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a new election . They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople . See you not how well they agree ? I haue a booke of yours , not of Ieremies , neither will a small thing make me beleeue it is his : for both the Grecian● , and particularly he , hath giuer great approbation of our Churches , as we find it in his workes published both in Greeke and Latin . Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church , and it is 〈◊〉 opposite to you , as euer our Church was . And yet you so forge these things , as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection . Vntill that vnhappy Monke , as you say , by his incest●●●● marriage had defloured a Nunne , dedicated to God by 〈◊〉 sole●●●● 〈◊〉 or vntill that quarrelling Sw●●● had c●●spired against his country , or that infamous ●●●●gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Ge●●●● . So , Campian , go on to raile and reuile euery good man , powre out the gall of your bitternes , seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them . Luthers name is written in the book of life ; and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men , and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him . It is a true saying , that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne : you call him Monke , & your selfe is but a Frier ; now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers . But he by incestuous marriage de●●oured 〈◊〉 Nom●●● , dedicated to God by solemne vow . q q DVR . But you goe against S. Paul , who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry , hauing broken their first saith ; which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages . WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstandeth by that faith , the vow of virginity ? Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary , for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes , whom he perswadeth to marry , should be taken into that office ; only such as were threescore yeares old , who may well abstaine from marriages & follow this calling . Now if they be not of this age , he sheweth what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many , they would wa● wa●●on against Christ , and breake their first faith , which is not their vow , but the profession of Christian religion , which such light buswiues would easily co●●●●● , that they might inioy their pleasures . And that this is his meaning the 1● . verse sheweth : For certeine are already turned backe after Satan ; shewing what some had done , he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like . And as for the Fathers , if they did also expound these words , ( as indeed they doe not ) yet the argument is very weake in diuinity : The Fathers haue thus expounded it , therefore the exposition is true . Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke , a Virgin that once was intangled by a rash & superstitious vow , after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion . Exclaime bitterly as you list . Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler , seeing your self is a player of a Price . But tell vs wherein he did euer shew himselfe such a cutter ? forsooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens . Slerdum lib. 8. Occolam . Ephes. lib. 4. If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre against the enemies of his countries & religion , where he perished by cruell theeues , who lay in waite for him , what did he vnbefitting a valiant man , a good citizen , and a faithfull Pastor to do . For whereas you challenge him with conspiracie against his country , besides that it is a shamelesse lie , I wonder why you should obiect such a crime to him , seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country . As for Caluin whom you call a seareback : runagate , the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man , and a most constant seruant of the Lord : who was as farre from lewdnes and dishonastie , as you are from shamefastnes and honesty . If he was seared , S. Paul was so too , Gal. 6.17 . yea & diuers others : but indeed he was not . And whereas you call him a runagate , I pray you tell vs , where you haue liued for these diuers yeares , and remember what your selfe were . Caluin neuer forsooke the Church , hee once tooke vpon him to gouerne , but there he liued with the speciall loue of all , and there he ended his daies : but why doe I answere you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men , whom you shal neuer iustly defame , though you burst your hart with lying .

But let vs now heare your communication as you call it . And heere you demaund , Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred youres ? we answere , we will subscribe : but say you , to which Church ? I answere r r DVR . He did not demaund whether you would subscribe to that Church , which had continued in the precept of the Apostles , but whether to that Church , which hath flourished these many hundred yeares ; which if you would , you must needs yeeld as ouercome , when none but ours haue flourished thus long . WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred yeares : or for many ages together in the opinion of men , it only h●● the name of ●●e church : 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine : but you shall neuer proue 〈◊〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place , Sea , & succession , no more then Christ & his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing vpon the earth . to the Church which is built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles : that is , to the Churches of Hierusalem , Antioch , Ephesus , and all those famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epistles written by the Apostles , yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome , to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oyste● . Finally we subscribe to those Churches , of whom we reade in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine , which the Apostles taught among them , sound & vncorrupt . These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine , were true Churches ; & to those Churches we haue and euer will subscribe . And by this I thinke we haue cut off the progresse of your conference , for we haue not giuen you such an answere as you fained to your selfe . Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand . but no answere will please you , vnlesse we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church : but that we iustly disclaime , because it hath fouly corrupted the ●●●stles writing . You must find you out other subscribers , Campian , for wee will subscribe to none but the Apostolicall Churches . But one thing , say you , they will still stand vpon in darkenes , that where and in what place soeuer the Church is , there are con●eiued therein only Saints , and such as are predestinate to go to heauen . We speake not so of the Church as you write : for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church , that it is sometimes s s DVR . I beleeue only one Catholike Church , as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me , which conteineth both the elect , and as many as professe true religion . Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches . WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church , no more then when the Church is said to be m●●●an and u●●●phant , vniuersall and particular . For the visible and ●●uisible Church make but one : called visible , for the outward policy or order of it , which is seene and discerned ; inuis●ble because Gods election and the electes faith is not to be seene with eies . And this distinction we haue , Esay . 1.9 . Matth. 22.14 . As for the Creedes you mention , we beleeue them in this point aswell as you . But tell vs ; this one Catholike Church what is it ? If you restraine the name to the visible Church ; first , you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints , and that which shall be of these which a●e vnborne , and yet do belong to the Catholike Church : secondly you place faith in the sense , which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seene , Heb. 11.1 . As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue , it is the company of all the elect , euen as many as haue been from the beginning of the world , and shall be to the end ; therefore it is called the Apostolike and holy Church , the communion of Saints . And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men , no hypocrites ; because they haue no fellowship with Christ . For the holy Church is the mysticall body of Christ , of which body no member can at any time perish . visible and sometimes inuisible . In a particular visible Church , of which they are members , who will heare the Word , and receiue the Sacraments : we confesse there are many fained Christians , who had rather haue the visard of faith , then true faith indeed . An inuisible Church we affirme to containe only the godly , who with a true faith lay hold on the Gospell . These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men , seeing they are men as others bee , yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue , which maketh them members of the Church , is visible , we affirme that this Church , consisting of holy and faithfull men , is altogether inuisible . Christ is the head of this Church , to this only the elect ca● ioyne themselues , wee then acknowledge another Church besides that , which conteineth only Saints ( for so should there be no visible Church at all ) but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets , we professe that to be the true Church of Christ , though many wicked men be found in it . Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things , as you say of vs , but are ready to proue them both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity . Comfort then your selfe , Campian , as much as you can , with the wits of our Vniuersity men , and promise to your selfe great things from vs , but see you bring more dexterity of wit , or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit . If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men , I perswade my selfe , they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts , but do as much by you too , for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The fourth Reason , which is generall Councels .

AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law , which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people , was by a Councell gathered together , of the Apostles and some elders decided . Children then beleeued their Parents , and sheepe their Sheepheards , charging them in this sort : a a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost , and vs ; after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers , for the rooting out of heresie , which budded vp aboundantly in euery age , which were of such authoritie aboue b b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe , that * * Gregorie made the foure Councels , equall to the Euangelists . great honour was attributed vnto them , as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels . I will seeke no further ; euen here in our owne Countrey by an c c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament , the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force , and pure authoritie : which said acte I will heere alleadge : And call thee , thy selfe O England , my most louing Countrey , to witnesse . If thou reuerence , as thou pretendest , those Councels , Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act. 4. & 16. Constan . c. 5. Eph. conc . in epist. ad Nestorium . Nic. con. 14 Chal. act. 11 Nic. conc . apud . Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can . 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea , that is , to Saint Peter . Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar , the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ . Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee . Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation , and open incest . Then wilt thou build vp many things , which now thou pullest downe , and wish many things vndone , which now thou doest . Moreouer , I promise and vndertake , as occasion and time shall serue , to proue , that the * * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell . Councels holden at other times , and namely the Councell of Trent , haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels . Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall , securely and couragiously , to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe , seeing I am * * This is false , ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith . ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels ? For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside , and also most substantially prooued , which he dare not contemptuously reiect . He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time , with multiplying of many words : but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for , you will take so good heed vnto him , that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes . If there shall be any at all so mad , as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome , and those , such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie , are too great to be challenged ; I would willingly behold that brazen face , the which when I shall sh●w you , I will leaue the rest to your imaginations . In the meane while , I will giue you this caueat , that whosoeuer affirmeth , that a generall Councell , * * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell , nor lawfully held . And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged . Sleidan . anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men . duly and orderly kept , and finished , is of no force or authoritie , the same man seemeth to me , to be one of no iudgement , nor of any wit ; and not onely an asse in diuinitie , but also voide of discretion in worldly policie . If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church , surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost , when the religion , perfection , knowledge , wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome , are assembled together into one Citie : and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane , whereby the truth may be searched out , Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost , promised e e Joh. 14. by God vnto them , that by his assistance , they may establish godly lawes , for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church . Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out , let him looke vp stately , let him scorne and mocke , let him lay all shame aside , let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges , what game , what pastime shall he make ; we haue spied out such a one , euen Martin f f Lib. de capt . Bab. Luther , who saith , that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ( ye may well imagine his owne , and Philip Melancthons ) if they come together in Christs name , then he did of all generall Councels . O worthy companie ! We haue found out also , another of the same crue , to wit g g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini . Kemnitius , who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent , by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine : what hath he gained ? an euill name : so that he , except he preuent it by recanting , shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius : whereas the Councell of Trent , the elder it waxeth , by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually . * * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent . O good Lord , with what diuersitie of people out of all countries , with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome , with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales , with what profound diuines , with what * * Two Bishops were taken in adulterie and put to death . Illyric . deuotion , with what lamentations , with what abstinence and fasting , with what flowers of Vniuersities , with what knowledge of strange tongues , with what sharpe wits , with what studie , with what endlesse reading , with what store of vertues and exercises was that sacred place replenished ? I heard with my owne eares Bishops reioyce , being men of great birth and very well learned , of which , one was Anthony Archbishop of Prage ( who created me Priest ) for that they had been brought vp certaine yeeres in that famous Schoole ; so that they acknowledged no benefite that euer the Emperour Ferdinando bestowed on them ( to whom otherwise also they thought themselues no little beholding ) to be more princely and bountifull , then this was , that by him being sent in Embassage from Pannonia , they sate in the Councell of Trent , together with the rest of the Fathers there present . This thing the Emperour full well perceiued , who greeted them in this sort at their returne : We haue maintained you in an exceeding good Schoole , why made the aduersaries no hast hither , being promised to goe and come safe ; that they might openly haue confuted them , against whom they croke like Toads out of their hoales . They haue broken promise ( say they ) with Husse and Hierome , who ? the heads of the Councell of Constance . That is a lye : Ioh. Huss . for they made them no promise . And yet Husse had not been put to death ; if that he , false and treacherous villaine as he was , not only by an escape , which the Emperour Sigismundus had forbidden him vpon paine of death ; and being taken , was brought backe againe : but also by * * This is false , for he broke no conditions . breaking certaine couenants which he had made in writing with the Emperor had not lost the benefit of that safe conduct : Husse was hedged in for his hastie knauerie ; for whereas at his countrie in Bohem , he had stirred vp barbarous tumults , and was therfore commanded to appeare before the generall Councel at Constance , he contemned the prerogatiue of the Councell , and made suite for a safe conduct to the Emperor . The * * Note . Emperour sealed him one ; all Christendome , which is greater then the Emperour , vnsealed it again : the arch heretike would not recant , and therfore he was burnt : Hierome of Prage . As for Hierome of Prage , he came priuately without any safe conduct at all to the Councell of Constance , and being apprehended did appeare , and had libertie to say what he could , and was verie curteously intreated , and suffered to goe abroad at his pleasure . Hee was cured of his disease , and abiured his heresie , hee fell againe , and therefore was burnt . But wherefore do they so often inculcate and call to memorie , this one example amongst sixe hundred ? Anno 1518 Let them peruse their chronicles : Martin Luther , one hated both of God and man , personallie appeared at Augusta before the Cardinall Caietane , and did he not belche forth of his venemouse gorge , what poysoned speeches he could , and at length being protected with the Emperour Maximilians safe conduct , went he not safe away ? Anno 1521 The same Martin Luther being sent for , to come to Wormes , though hee had both the Emperour , and almost all the Princes of the Empire his Enemies , did hee not vpon the Emperours word come and goe safe ? Finally , did not the ring-leaders of the Lutherans and Zuinglians in the presence of Charles the fifth , the open enemie to all heretikes , Conqueror , and soueraigne , vpon a truce graunted them , exhibit at an assemblie at Augusta , August . confess . Vide acta Conc. Trid. the confession of their faith , which before they had so often altered , and went they not without hurt away ? Likewise the councell of Trent prouided for the aduersarie most large warrants to come and goe safe , but he would not vse the same . He beasteth forsooth of himselfe in corners , where when he can vtter three greeke words , he may seeme to bee a great learned man : He flies from the light , which would make a slender scholler to bee accounted learned , and so aduance him to seates of great dignitie . Let them purchase for vs English Catholikes , if they loue their soules health , * * There is not the same reason . such a safe conduct in writing : wee will not alleadge Husse for our excuse , but make our speedie repaire to the court , putting our whole trust in the Queenes Maiesties word . But that I may returne thither from whence I digressed : All generall Councels are on my side , the first , the last , the rest ; these shal be my weapons . Let the aduersarie expect , a well headed dart , which he shall neuer be able to shake off . God graunt that Satan in him may be quite ouerthrowne , and Christ reuined .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the fourth Reason .

THE next place is concerning Councels , not much differing from the former ; for what is a Councell but the flower , and as it were a little modell of the whole Church ? And therefore whatsoeuer may be said of Councels , it appertaineth to the nature of the Church ; but when as these for more plainnes sake , are sometimes distinguished , I doe easily permit you to propound them distinctly . a a DVR . But you coutemne the authority of the holy Ghost , speaking by Councels , which al the auncient Fathers haue had in singular respect . WHIT. pag. 290. You accuse vs falsely , for howsoeuer we assent not with you , who make them shoulder the Scriptures with equall authority ; because we know that both they might , and also haue grossely erred in many things , as the Fathers haue confessed , and yee your selues cannot deny ; yet wherein they are consonant with the Scriptures , we embrace their authority ▪ and haue them in singular respect , and estination . And in preferring the Scripture before them , we follow but the example of the Fathers . August . de Baptis . contra Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. idem contra Maxim. lib. 3 ▪ cap. 14. & de vnitat . Eccle. cap. 16. Hieron . in Galatas . Ambros . Epist. 32. Now the name of Councels is honorable , their credit singular , and their authority of great esteeme , and you doe neuer more insolently bragge , then in this place : for when you doe but name Councels , you thinke that you haue sufficiently confuted your aduersaries , and promise vnto your selfe assured victory . Neither will I go about to extenuate the dignity of Councels , wondering that b b DVR . Nazianzene d●d not iudge inturiously nor writet● bitterly of Councels , as you suppose ; but only a●fi●med that the fraud and malice of the heretikes of those times , hindred the assembling of lawfull Councels . WHIT. pag. 264. It seemeth you haue not read his Epistle , or but very sle●gtly , ●eeing he therein plainly set●eth downe two reasons why he absented himselfe from the Councell , when he was called : f●●st the weaknes of his body , and secondly , his iudgment concerning Councels : which was , that he thought such assemblies were to be auoided , because he had seene no good of any Synode , and that hereby occasions of euils were rather increased then taken away . DVR . Yea but he hath shened his contrary iudgment writing his Cledonius . WHIT. Nothing lesse : but only hee affirmeth that he would subscribe to the Apollinarian heretikes , if they could proue that they were receiued of the west Councell ; which hee knew they could not . Nazianzene , Nazianz. Epist. 4● . ad Procop. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . should so vniustly iudge , and so iniuriously write of them . For he saith , that he had deliberated with himselfe and fully resolued to auoid Episcopall Conuocations , because he had neuer seene a good issue of any Synode . Which howsoeuer it hath bin true of many , which by reason of the ambition , and busie medling of some , haue not taken away auncient controuersies , but rather haue sowed the seed of new contentions : yet many Councels haue been approued and commended by their most wished euent . Whereas therefore you appeale to Councels , we will follow you in many , & in their most weighty censures and decrees : for in all neither do you your selues iudge it necessary . But let vs now heare you discoursing concerning Councels .

A waighty question , ( say you ) concerning lawfull cere●●●ies , was cleared in a Councell of the Apostles and Fld●rs assembled together . The children beleeued their Parents , and the Sheepe their Sheph●ard , commaunding in this forme of speech ; It bath pleased the holy Ghost and vs . Where you make mention of a Councell most excellent , and aboue all exceptions : in which nothing was done rashly , peruersely , and factiously ( as sometimes in other Councels it hath been accustomed ) but al things diuinely , and by the authority of the holy Ghost himself . and therfore if we did not beleeue this Councell , we were vnworthy of the name , either of children or of sheep . This Councel resolued that important question concerning ceremonies , and freed the neckes of Christians from that most grieuous yoke of Mosaicall rites : whereby the greater cause of griefe is offered vs by you , who haue imposed vpon the Church , contrarie to the expresse commandement of this Councell , another yoke much more intolerable , then that of Moses . For this is cleare and manifest , that the ceremonies brought into the Church by you , and imposed vpon the consciences of men , are twice as many , as those which in time past Moses by Gods expresse commaundement inioyned vnto the people of Israell . August . ad Ianuar. And this is that of which c c DVR . Angustine when he writ this , did not after your manner carpe at Ecclesiasticall ceremonies , but sheweth that be would not haue them instituted at euery mans pleasure . For in his first Epistle to Ianuariu● he thus writeth . If the whole Church vse any of these , it i● insolent madnes to dispute , whether such a thing is to be done or no ? WHIT. pag. 296. Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time , and would haue vs rest contented with those few ceremonies , which are commended vnto vs in the Scriptures . Ad Ianuar. Epist. 118. cap. 1. & Epist. 119.19 . His words which you alleage , I willinglie embrace ; for we vse and esteeme those ceremonies , which all Churches haue receiued as necessary for order and comelinesse . But of this kind yours are not , neither can you wrest those speeches concerning the ceremonies of the Church to approue your Traditions : seeing the Church of Rome long since ceased to be the Church of Christ . Augustine long agone complained , namely that by the multitudes of ceremonies , the state of Christians , was become worse then the state of the Iewes themselues , which if Augustine spake of the ceremonies of his time , how much more would he haue thus complained , had he seene the great multitudes , which were afterwards added to them . But if the Apostles and Elders according to the meaning & iudgment of the holy Ghost , did determine that those ceremonies which the Lord himselfe had ordeined , were to be abolished , how intolerable is your boldnes , who contrary to the decree of this spirit , and Councell haue obtruded , vpon Christians your innumerable traditions and needles ceremonies . Did the Lord therfore abolish his owne ceremonies , that he might establish yours ? did he abroga●● a few , that he might bring in a multitude ? did he ease vs of lighter , that he might impose heauier . Whereby it appeareth that the diuine institution of this Councel , which , as it was before all other in time , so aboue all other in excellency , is most wickedly by you violated . And is it to be thought possible , that you , who haue demeaned your selues so impiously towards these Parents and Pastors , will be more respectiue towards others ? Nay there is not any Councell , which you haue not long ago trodden vnder feete , so that euery one of you , are infoulded in a thousand excommunications . And dare you , Campian , notwithstanding make mention of Councels , which if they were in any force , surely you should no more be tolerated in the Church , then Publicans and Pagans . There followeth this , say you , for the rooting out of heresie , the foure general Councels of the auncient Fathers , which were of such strength and authority , that a thousand yeares since , they were had in singular account euen as Gods word it selfe . And we likewise doe freely confesse , that the authority of those foure Councels was good and profitable . Luthe . de Concil. Reade what learned Luther hath writ of those foure generall Councels , and so also you may know our iudgement of them . Notwithstanding there is no reason why we should assent vnto Gregorie , Gregor. lib. 1. Epist. 24. who professeth that he doth imbrace and reuerence these foure Councels , as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell . For this were rather to violate the Gospell , then to reuerence the Councels . Although as I take it , Gregories meaning was , that what was decreed and concluded in these foure Councels , out of Gods word against Arriu● , Eu●●onius , Macedonius , Nostorius , Eutyches , and Diosc●ru● , that he firmely embraced , and would not suffer these decreet , which are approued by the Euangelicall writings , and in which this impious heresie is condemned , to be reuoked and repealed no more then the Gospell it selfe , neither can I imagine that it was Gregories purpose to affirme this of all these Councels , that the Councell of Nice , Constantin●ple , Ephesus and Chalced●n , were fully equall vnto the holy Gospell in authority and dignity . And so we our selues do not doubt , that those things which these Fathers haue determined against those heretikes , before named concerning the consubstantiall subsistence of the Father and the Sonne , of the diuinity of the holy Ghost , of the one person of Christ in two natures , are as true as the Gospel it selfe ; not because these Councels so iudged and concluded , but because in the Gospell , the selfe same doctrine of faith is deliuered . Further you say , That also i●●●r owne country , by our Parliaments , the same Councels retaine their auncient right . It is true indeed , that in these and all other things , which they propound , if they be consonant to the holy Scriptures , they doe still retaine their auncient right and dignity . But lest you should suppose that we did euer attribute thus much to these Councels , that we iudge all that to be necessarily embraced , whatsoeuer they haue decreed ; heare you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these generall Councels . Councels , not only may erre , but also sometimes haue erred , In the Artic. of Religion , Artic. 21. and that in these things , which belong to the rule of piety , and therfore whatsoeuer by them is decreed as necessary to saluation , hath no vertus nor authority , vnlesse it may be shewed that it is taken ou● of the holy Scriptures . Cite you now these words , and then contest ( as you call it ) your sweet country . And in like manner , this your most deare countrie in which you were borne , brought vp and graced , doth contest , intreat , and beseech you , by all those things , which are vnto you most swee●e and best esteemed , that you desist any more in this b●dde cause to be troublesome vnto her ; that you will no● corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion ; that you will make more preciou● account of her dignity , then of a forraine enemie : and that you would at length returne thither , from whence you haue stra●ed . And surely you would not contemne this speech of your country , if you could , euen for a litle space , lay aside , that preiudicate opinion which you haue sucked from Rome , and brought with you hither into England .

But let vs heare , what is this your contestation ? If , say you , you will re●erence these four● Councels , you will chiefely hon●r the Bishop of the chief● S●● , that is Peter . And so do we ascribe great honour , vnto Peter , and that worthily ; neither doe we contend with you about him ; but this affirme , that those things which were proper vnto Peter , cannot in any wise appertaine to your Pope , who was neuer like either Peter or Paul . And in truth what madnes is this , so insolently to bragge of Peters great vertues , when in the meane time , you cannot proue that your Popes are indued with any such ? Do you suppose that any man that is in his right wits , will thinke that Peters faith , piety , and all the rest of his vertues , haue bin deriued to your Pope by a lineall descent , from so many other Popes , of whom a great number , were not men , but monsters ? This doubtlesse is a grosse dotage , and fit to be taken away , Quouis helleboro dignum . with the mad mans purge , and as one saith , for those diseases , reprehension is the best ma●●●r of cure . Should I entitle your Gregori● the 13. who now gouerneth at Rome , with the name of Peter ? doth he teach ? doth he feed Christs sheepe ? surely he cannot . Doth he performe the duty of an Apostle , or of a Bishop ? nothing lesse . How therfore doth he demeane himselfe ? Sitting in the Vatican , he prouoketh to warre , moueth seditions , armeth subiects against their Princes , and filleth the whole world with vpro●●●● ▪ Did Peter thus behaue himselfe ? is this to be Peter ? can you deny that these things be true , and shall I then yeeld vnto him the like honor , that is due to Peter , being so vnlike him in conditions ? But let vs further examine your words ; You will ( say you ) chiefely honor the Bishop of the chiefe Sea , that is Peter ; but by what Councell doe you proue that necessary ? you alleage the Councell of Nice Can. 6. In which there is not so much as any mention of the Bishop of the chiefe Sea , or of Peter ; neither in truth could any thing be produced of greater force against your Bishop , then that decree of Nicene Synode : for it matcheth all Metropolitanes and Patriarkes in an equall ranke of honor with the Bishop of Rome ; neither doth it attribute any more to him , then vnto the Metropolitanes of Antioch , Alexandria , and the rest of the other Prouinces . If you please , you shall heare the words of the Councell : Concil. Nicen . Can. 6. d d DVR . This cause by you alleadged maketh much for establishing the authority of the Romane Sea ouer all Churches . For when as the Fathers to proue the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria , alleage the custome of the Church of Rome , they shew hereby that Alexandria dependeth vpon Rome ; as the mother Church from which she hath all her authority . And that this was their mind appeareth by the words of Paschasmus the Popes Legat in the Councell of Chalcedon , & is also proued by the 39. Canon translated out of Arabicke into Latin . The same Fathers likewise assembled at Sardis approued the Supremacy of the Romane Sea . WHIT. pag. 299. Nothing could be alleadged more direct against the Romish Supremacy then this Canon , wherin their own proper limits of iurisdiction are assigned to euery Metropolitane . For if the Pope should rule ouer the whole Church , it had bin absur'd to limit euery one their owne borders , wherein they should haue supreame authority according to the custome of the Church of Rome . Neither doth this proue the supremacy of the Romish Church , because they alleadge her custome and example , as you ignorantly inferre : seeing an example may be taken aswell from an equall or inferiour , as from a superious . It is no maruell if Paschasinus , being the Popes Legate , spake for the supremacy of the Romane Sea , neither is his testimony to be regarded , being a party . Your Arabicke Canon is meerely Arabicke , and not Nicene ; for of this Councel there were only 20. Canons written in Greek , and not in the Arabian tongue . The Canon of the Councell of Sardis helpeth you not , seeing the Councell of Africke testifieth that i● was counterfeite . Let the ancient custome be in force , which was in Aegypt , Libya , and Pentapolis , that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the chiefe dignity , ouer all these things : because also this was the custome of the Bishop of Rome : and in like manner at Antioch , and in the rest of the Prouinces , let the Primacy and authority be receiued vnto the Churches .

You see ( Campian ) I suppose that no extraordinary prerogatiue hath been giuen to the Bishop of Rome : and that his Prouince and Iurisdiction hath been circumscribed within determined bounds and borders . Ruffin . lib. Decim● . And after this same manner doth Ruffinus , ( if you do not credit vs ) interpret this Canon . This Auncient custome is obserued at Alexandria , and in the citie of Rome , that the Bishop of Alexandria take the charges of Aegypt , and the Bishop of Rome of the Churches of the cities neire adioyning . And therefore let the Bishop of Rome take care of the bordering Churches of the neighbour cities , with which the Nicene Synode hath enioyned him to rest satisfied ; and hereafter let him not trouble himselfe , with the care of our Churches , which appertaine not vnto his charge . And so you see , that if you had been well aduised , you would neuer haue mentioned this Councell . Act. 4.16 . But you adioyne also vnto this the Councell of e e DVR . The Councell of Chalcedon standeth so directly for the supremacy of the Romane Sea , that you ca with no shifts auoid it . For therein Dioscorus , as for diuer , other faults , so especially for excommunstating the Pope , was depriued of Episcopall authority , Act. 3. Besides they writ thus to Pope Leo. He extendeth his madnes against him , vnto whom the custody of the vineyard is committed by our Sauiour , and against thee who labourest to vnite the body of the Church . Againe , they desire that their decrees should be confirmed of the same Pope . And Paschasinus saith that the Pope of Rome , whichus head of all the Churches , depriued him ; because as Lucentius addeth , hee presumed to call a Councell without the authority of the Apostolike Sea . WHIT. pag. 302. This councell is so far from confirming the Popes supremacy , that it plainly ouerthroweth it : for though Pope Leo with all earnestnes opposed against the honor and dignity of the Bishop of Constantinople , yet he obtein●● of the Councell that degree of honor which he desired , which he could not haue done if the Councell had acknowledged the Popes supremacy . Concerning Dioscorus , he was depriued for many notable crimes , as murther , blasphemy against the Trinity burglary , adultery and excommunicating the Pope ; and you make this last a speciall cause of his depriuation , as though it were a more heinous crime then murther , adultery and blasphemy . Therein aduauncing your Pope , as your manner is , aboue the blessed Trinity . The committing of the vineyard to Peter , maketh nothing for your Pope , who is not Peter , nor any thing like him . Proue that it was committed to the Pope and you say something . The confirmation of the decrees was not a thing proper to the Pope , but also appertained to the other Patriarckes and Metropolitanes ; yea to the Emperors . Paschasinus and Lucentius accusing Dioscorus , say not a word of the Popes supremacy , although they were the Popes Legates . And whereas he calleth Rome the head of all the Churches , his meaning was , that it was the first , greatest , and most famous Church . Chalcedon , that thereby you may proue that the chiefe honour is to be ascribed vnto the Bishop of the chiefe sea , that is vnto Peter . I graunt , Campian , that this sea in time past , was had in the chiefe place of honour , and I know very well that the chiefe dignitie was attributed to the Bishop of this sea ; the reason whereof you may easilie perceiue out of the selfe same Councell . For this was not done by any commaundement of Christ , that the Church of Rome should excell in dignitie , all other Churches of the world : but the Fathers testifie , that the cause why that Citie was inuested with greater priuiledge than others , was this , because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire . You may finde the words themselues in the same acte which you cite . Act. 16. But if ( as you say ) the Church of Rome ought to haue the preheminence aboue all other Churches in the world , in diuine authoritie , what then ment the Chalcedonian Fathers , to affirme that there were some prerogatiues graunted vnto that Church , for this cause alone ; in that Rome was the head of the Empire , and therefore they thought that the Bishop of that Citie , which was the Empresse of the world , was worthie of some more honour than others ? And this honour to speake of was onely this ; that the Bishop of Rome should haue the preheminence of place in Councels , the prioritie of speech in deliuering his opinion , and the precedence in rancke and place . And thus neither doe we our selues , now much enuie this honour to the Romane Bishop , but that if so it please him , he may enioy it ; so that he doe not ( because he hath the chiefe place ) imperiouslie tyranize ouer his brethren , as he hath done for many ages , and perswadeth himselfe that he may doe it lawfully . But seeing it pleaseth you to obiect vnto vs , the Councel of Chalcedon , that you may challenge the chiefe honor , as due to your Bishop of the chiefe Sea , before I proceed further , I would gladly you should resolue me in this question , why the f f DVR . This was not the iudgement of the whole Councell , but of certeine men . Neither did the Constantinopolitanes require that their Sea should be of equall authority with the Sea of Rome , but that it should haue the like soueraignty in Ecclesiasticall matters , and obtain● the next place to it . WHIT. pag. 306. This was the iudgment of the whole Councell , except the Popes owne Legates Paschasinus , Bonefacius , and Lucentius , who in vaine opposed : for the decree runneth thus . These things we all say , these things please vs all . And contrary to your assertion , these Fathers decreed that the Bishop of Constantinople should be matched in equall priuiledge , with the Bishop of Rome ; which equality of priuiledges , cannot stand with the vnequality of authority . Neither did prioritie of place proue , that the Bishop of Rome had any priority of authoritie , s●●ing this was only for orders sake : otherwise by the same reason the Bishop of Constantinople should haue had the like authority ouer the Bishop of Alexandri● , because he sate aboue him . Fathers of this Councell , made the Sea of Constantinople , equall to the Sea of Rome ? for so they decree , and diffinitiuely determine : that seeing great priuiledges were graunted to the Church of Rome , in respect of the Empire of the citie , they thought it a matter of great equity , that the new Rome that was now graced with the Empire and Senate , should enioy the same priuiledges which old Rome had done . And although the Bishop of Rome did most earnestly contend and labour , that the Bishop of Constantinople might not be made his equall , yet he could not by his best meanes effect his desire , but that the decree of the Councell preuailed , which had equalised the Bishop of Constantinople , with the Bishop of Rome . And therefore me thinkes you haue but ill defended the honor and dignity of your Bishop , when you alleadge the decree of that Councell . Moreouer , the Councell of g g DVR . The filth Canon of the Councell of Constantinople , ascribed greater honor to the Romane Sea , then to any other . WHIT. pag. 311. This honor was only of precedence and place , and not of authority ; as plainly appeareth in the words of the Councell it self● . Chap. ●8 . and in that the like prerogatiue was graunted in the next place to the Bishop of Constantinople , and therefore by the like reason he might ●rrog●●● authority ouer the whole Church . Constantinople which you also cite , Canon . 5. decreed no other thing for the Romane Sea , then that the Bishop of Constantinople should haue the prerogatiue of honor next to the Bishop of Rome . And this we also confesse , that in times past the Prouinces were so distributed , that Rome had the chiefe , Constantinople the next , and so euery one in their owne order . But what maketh that to this cause , which we haue now in hand ? For this is not the honor which the Bishop of Rome challengeth vnto himselfe : this not the height of power and maiestie which he so often arrogateth . Ephes. Conc. in Epist. ad Nestor . The Councell also of h h DVR . In the Councell of Ephesus diuers things are conteined , which approue the supremacy of the Sea of Rome , &c. WHIT. pag. 313. Campian cited the Epistle of the Councell to Nestorius , wherein there is nothing which any way fauoureth the Popes supremacy ; the which you perceiuing , do rake together other fragments concerning things which are not in controuersie , and leaue out those points which make against you . Ephesus is alleadged by you with as litle reason , seeing it ascribeth nothing to the Bishop of Rome , which did not also agree to other Bishops : for if you take hold on this , that Celestinus the Bishop of Rome , was called the holy president , & most reuerend Father , because he threatned to excommunicate Nestorius , vnlesse he abiuted his heresie ; these things are common vnto the Bishop of Rome with others : neither was he only intitled reuerend , neither could hee alone pronounce iudgment against heretikes . But if these would rather please you ; This is the faith of the Catholike and Orthodoxall Church , vnto which all the Orthodoxall Bishops giue their assent ; you interpret these words amisse . For in these words all the Orthodoxall Bishops are said not to assent to the Church , but to the faith : and that faith , which the Fathers in those their letters embraced , all Orthodoxall Bishops in euery place haue approued , and we also do defend .

But what now followeth in your contestation ? Thou wilt ( say you ) acknowledge the vnbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ on the Altar . And for this you cite the 14. Canon of the Nicence Councell , in which there is not so much as any mention made neither of vnbloody , nor of i i DVR . The word Sacrifice is in the 14. Canon of the Nicene Councell . And in the institutions of this Councell , it is said that the Lambe of God is on the holy table , which is offered of the Priests without blood , &c. WHIT pag. 316. It is not to be found in the words of the Councell in the Greeke , but they are your words of the Translator . And concerning the institutions , their authority was alwaies doubtfull in the Church , neither do they make for you , seeing we grant that in the right vse of the Sacrament we receiue the Lambe of God , Sacramentally . sacrifice , nor of Altar . But Deacons are there prohibited to arrogate so much vnto themselues , that Bishops or Priests being present , they should take vpon them to administer the Sacrament of the Lords supper , because it was not lawfull for Deacons to deliuer the Lords body vnto Priests . Now it is an vsuall thing to call bread the Lords body , because it is a Sacrament of the Lords body ; neither in the meane time do I deny that the supper of the Lord is called by many of the k k DVR . The testimonies of the Fathers which you alleadge , wherein the Sacrament is called an vnbloody sacrifice , make nothing for you : seeing that with them is called vnbloody , not that is without blood but without effusion of blood . WHIT pag. 318. The word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , vnbloody , vsed by them , signifieth such a thing as hath no blood in it . If therefore this be 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , an vnbloody sacrifice , as the Fathers call it , then it is a Sacrifice without blood , and not only without shedding of blood . Againe if it be a sacrifice wherin no blood is spilt , then is it not the sacrifice of Christ ; for in this blood was shed : nor any true sacrifice , for there is no sacrifice that hath blood without the shedding therof . Heb. 9.22 . auncient Fathers , an vnbloody sacrifice : both because wee retaine the mysteries of Christs death without any blood , & also offer vp praises & thanksgiuing as it were for sacrifices vnto God ; and therefore Cyrill ioyneth in the supper , these together , vnbloody sacrifices and praises . Cyril . ad Regin. Eusebius de Demon. lib. 1. And Eusebius writeth , that we build an Altar to the Lord , of vnbloody and reasonable sacrifices , according to the new mysteries . Now if you aske what manner of vnbloody sacrifice this is , let Eusebius himself answer you in his own words . He hath deliuered vnto vs , a l l DVR . Eusebius doth not call it a sacrifice , because it is a sole & bare memoriall of the new Testament , as you suppose : but because wee offer an vnbloody socrifice , for a memoriall of a bloody sacrifice . WHIT. pag. 323. Neither doe I affirme it , for this is not a bare memoriall , seeing the thing it selfe , thereby signified , is therin conteined in the right vse of it . But withall I deny that this memoriall is the same sacrifice which Christ offered , as you would haue it ; for how can a sacrifice be the self same with it of which it is a memorial ? If therfore this be an vnbloody sacrifice , them it is not the Sacrifice which Christ offered , which was bloody , & the memorial of no other sacrifice . See Eus. de Demon. l. 1. memoriall of his death , which we offer vnto him in place of a Sacrifice . Again , you propound the eleuenth act of the Councell of Chalcedon , which conteineth nothing at all , which appertaineth to this matter in hand , neither that place of Socrates which you quote . Lib. 1. cap. 8 You might haue dealt better and more simply , if you would haue cited the words themselues , and not only quoted vncertaine and confused notes in the margent : but you feared lest you might haue bin too easily discouered , vnles you had masked your selfe vnder the vizard of deceite .

But let vs examine the remainder of your contestation : Thou wilt pray ( say you ) vnto the Martyrs and all the Saints , that they would mediate for thee vnto Christ . Thou wilt restraine effeminate Apostataes from wicked copulation . Whether the Martyrs and heauenly Saints pray vnto Christ for vs or no , m m DVR . You cannot be ignorant of this , that the Saints pray for vs , if in the doctrine of faith you insist in the steps of the Fathers . WHIT. p. 328. We are ignorant therof because there is no such thing conteined in the Canonical Scriptures , which should not haue bin omitted if the spirit of God had thought this knowledge necessary . Neither is it con●●ouersed what the Fathers thought of it ; not doth it follow because they haue care of vs , they pray for vs ; neither if they do pray , therefore we should pray vnto them . we know not : but certaine it is , that they are n n DVR . We know the blessednes of the Saints in heauen , and therefore they are not ignorant of our misery in earth . Againe , Christ hath reueiled vnto the Saints liuing on the earth , diuine and heauenly things , and therefore he reueileth to the Saints in heauen , what is done in earth . WHIT. pag 330. Although we generally know that the Saints in heauen are blessed , yet we know not their particular state , their actions , the manner & degree of their happines : and therefore if your argument be good , it confuteth your self ; seeing therfore it followeth , that they likwise are ignorant of our particular state & actions . Moreouer Christ reueiled to the Saints on earth , heauenly things , but not what was done in heauen , only he made those diuine mysteries knowe vnto them , which were necessary to saluation ; whereof it followeth not that he reuealeth to the Saints in heauen , what is particularly done on earth , vnles you can proue that there is the like necessity of this knowledge . ignorant of those things we doe . And therefore we rather goe vnto o o DVR . S. Paul desireth the Romans and Corinthians to pray for him , and therfore we may desire the same of the Saints in heauen . We know that we obtaine all in the name of Christ , but seeing all are not in like grace with God , the Fathers and we haue made choise of those who are most gratious . WHIT. pag. 336. The first part of your answere confuteth the latter , vnles you will say that Paul was lesse gratious with God , then the Romans and Corinthians ; and both are weake & of no value : for first Paul praieth not to them as you do to Saints , but only desireth them to performe a mutual Christian duty , which the Saints liuing , who are acquainted with one anothers estate and wants , ought not to neglect : if he had made the likesuite to a Prophet departed , Iohn Baptist , or Iames slaine by Herode , you had somewhat to say . Lastly if those are to be made choise of for mediators , who are in greatest grace with God , to whom should we goe but vnto Christ his dearely beloued Sonne , in whom God is well pleased and we reconciled ? Eph. 16. Matth. 3.17 . Ioh. 14.6 . 1. Tim. 2.5 . Christ , and pray vnto him alone , who both knoweth our wants , and also will and can grant vnto vs such things as we desire . You if you please may seeke after the pirling streames , but wee will draw out of the fountaine it selfe , neither doe we regard the inueterate custome of praying vnto saints ( for though this custome is auncient ; neuerthelesse , it hath flowed from the well-head of humane superstition , and not from diuine authoritie : ) and whereas you adioyne your conceit concerning the restraining offeminate Apostataes from wicked copulation ; and for this purpose alleadge some Canons of the Councell of Chalcedon : Concil. Chale . can. 4.15.23 . in this you follow your olde wont : for there is only one Canon to be found against ministring widowes , which after they had taken vpon them the office of ministration , married againe : but how vniust this law is , it may easilie appeare . 1. Tim. 5. For when as Saint Paul would haue these widowes to be p p DVR . There is nothing determined in the Scriptures concerning the age of widdowes . That which S. Paul writeth , was profitable for the insancie of the Church ; but when the Gospell had taken deeper ●oot in mens harts , they began to preferre contiuency before marriage . WHIT. pag. 337. Your impudency is to be admired , seeing S. Paul hath plainly determined that they should bee fixtie yeares of age at the least , 1. Tim. 5.9 . neither were such Apostolicall constitutions to indure only for a time , but vntill the comming of Christ , as appeareth . 1. Tim. 6.14 . And whereas you say the Gospell after the Apostles times , tooke deeper roote in mens minds , it is meerely false ; it was indeed further propagated , but the Church was neuer in after ages indued with the like measure of grace , and extraordinarie giftes , as it was in the Apostles times , when they receiued the first fruits of the spirit . And I would pray the Reader to consider that Duraeus doth confesse , that in the first age of the Church single life was not so much desired of most , and in later times they onely beg●n to preferre continency before matriage . But how much better it had been to haue kept the Apostolike institutions , and to haue chaunged compelled continency for lawfull and holy marriage , the lamentable euent hath sufficiently proued . sixtie yeares old at least ; this Canon doth admit of those who are but fortie : and yet notwithstanding permitteth them not to marrie . But you will say they haue vowed single life : First , proue that they ought to make any such vowe , and then , that if they shall perceiue , they can by no meanes performe their vowe , that they haue done otherwise then they should when they married . q q DVR . You say , to vow that which we cannot performe , is to mocke God ; but this we may performe , seeing God bestoweth the vertue of continencie vpon those , who seeke it by fasting and prayer : and seeing the vestall Nuns and Aegyptian Priests atteined vnto it , and wines also , when their husbands are longe absent vpon necessary occasion . WHIT. pag. 340. God granteth not all things wee pray for , but those things which hee hath promised , as appeareth in the example of S. Paul 2. Cor. 12.8 . But we haue no promise of the gift of continency ; yea contrariwise Christ hath taught vs , that all are not capable of it , but those only to whom it is giuen Matth. 19.11 . & the Apostle saith that it is a gift proper to some onely . 1. Cor. 7.7 . and therefore wee haue no ground absolutely to pray for it with assurance of being heard . The vestall Nuns & Aegyptian Priests are fit examples for your imitation , who liued single , but not chast : and yet the Vestals might marrie when they were past thirtie yeares old ; and some Aegyptian Priests , as appeareth , Gen. 41.45 . Concerning the chastitie of wiues in their husbands necessary absence , the reason is not alike ; for it is one thing to impose vpon our selues a voluntary necessitie , and another to vndergoe it when it is imposed by God . God will keepe vs in our waies , Psal. 90.14 . but not when wee rashly thrust our selues into needlesse difficulties . To make a vow in things indifferent , which you cannot possibly performe , is to mocke God , and to commit the crime of impious temeritie : but to persist in this wicked vowe is a double sinne . And therefore that which the law prescribeth is to be embraced : The best course in euill promises made , is not to obserue them ; and we are so to behaue our selues , as Bernard counselleth his sister . In euill promises keepe not touch . Bernard . ad Soror . de modo bene viuendi Serm. 62. r r DVR . Bernard writeth not against the vow of virginity , but only willeth vs to breake a dishonest vow , neither is this booke , you know , thought to be his . WHIT. pag. 342. It is not much materiall who was the author , but his iudgement is to be embraced : seeing then that is a dishonest vow , the performance whereof is ioyned with dishonestie , it followeth that the vow of single life is such , when as it causeth men to burne in the flame of lust , and therefore is rather to be broken then obserued . In a dishonest vowe change thy purpose . Doe not performe that which thou hast vowed vnaduisedly ; for that promise is impious which is wickedly performed . Now what can be more wicked and odious in the sight of God , then to be inwardly inflamed with the fire of lust , and to refuse that lawfull mean●● whereby it might be quenched ? But you are alwaies harping vpon this string ; that they are bound by the lawes of a vowe : Cyprian . lib. 1. Epist. 1. 1. Pet. 1. therefore let Cyprian make you answere . s s DVR . The words of Cyprian are not to be vnderstood of Virgins already consecrated vnto God , but he willeth those who will not perseuere in virginitie , that they doe not consecrate themselues to Christ , but rather marry , WHIT. pag. 343. Cyprian speaketh plainly of such Virgins as were alreadie consecrated , for hee reprehendeth such as hauing consecrated themselues to Christ , did liue incontinently , and willeth them , if they will not perseuere in chastitie , to marrie . lib. 1. Epistol. 11. And Erasmus thought thus as appeareth by a marginall note of his . Here marriages are permitted to holy Virgins . If they haue by their vowe , consecrated themselues to Christ , 1. Pet. 1. let them perseuere honestly and chastely without any feined deuises . But if they will not or cannot perse●ere , their best course is to marrie . And would Cyprian , thinke you Campian , haue giuen this counsell to Virgins , if he had iudged such marriages wicked , or no better than publike incest , as you in your intemperate stile tearme it ? And indeed how much more honest course were it for you Monkes and Friers , to auoid your too too publike and notoriously wicked fornication , by imbracing chaste marriage ? for so it might come to passe , Plus secund. as your olde Pope Pius was wont to say : That many of you might be saued in marriage , which are now damned in single life : But he that is filthie , let him goe forward in his filthines vnto his olde age ; and let him that is holy , ●lie vncleanenesse , and prefer sanctimonie of life , before vice and wickednes . And these are the maine matters which you haue deliuered vnto vs , in that your graue contestation , and haue laboured to perswade by interposing the authoritie of Councels . But you might haue considered ( Campian ) that the counterfeit names of Councels , ought to be of farre lesse authoritie with vs , then the most vndoubted truth of Gods word . And whereas you further affirme , that The Synods of other times , and namely that of Trent , are of equall authoritie and credit with those first Councels : I must tell you , I beleeue you not , although you promise and take vpon you to proue it , when need requires . You promise indeed much , but performe nothing . But here I intreate the godly Reader , and beseech all Christians , that they would attentiuely marke , what Campian here auoucheth , to wit , that all Synodes , and namely that of Trent , are equall to the foure generall Councels : which foure Councels , are by t t DVR . Gregorie doth not match the foure Councels in equall authoritie with the foure Gospels ; but onely saith , that as hee doth vndoubtedly and certainely beleeue the scriptures , so also the foure Councels . WHIT. pag. 348. Gregorie saith , that he doth imbrace and reuerence the foure Councels as the foure bookes of the Gospell , Epist. libr. 1. Epist. 24. And what is this , but to make them equall ? For if there bee any inequalitie , wo cannot imbrace and reuerence them both alike . Gregory , whom Campian citeth , marched in equall authoritie with the foure Gospels : from whence it necessarily followeth , that all Councels of other times are of the same authoritie and credit with the foure Euangelists . I will not vrge this poynt further , neither will I now shake you vp , as you vsually doe Master Luther , but rather leaue you to bee beaten with the rod of mens silent iudgements . After this you being shadowed with this impenitrable shield of Councels , enter the lists , and obserue whether your aduersarie conuaieth himselfe ; for so great a warrier you are , such a skilfull Champion , and so fierce in fight , that assoone as you but shew your selfe , forthwith all your enemies betake them to their heeles ; and eftsoones you declare how you meane to behaue your selfe in this fight , and what a great slaughter you intend to make . But take heede , Campian , least that may worthilie be applied to you , which is spoken in the Prouerbes : He that is rashly confident , before the conflict , is commonly a coward in the combate .

You speake much of the dignitie of Councels , which we also acknowledge to be very great , but neuerthelesse , the holy Ghost is not bound to multitudes of men , to stately preparations , nor to sumptuous pompe . And we may often obserue that in Councels there is much contending amongst contrarie factions , and sometimes the greater part preuaileth against the better . You say that Luther durst presume to affirme , that hee preferred the iudgement and suffrages of two good and learned men , before the Councels . And in truth why might he not preferre them ; and who could iustly finde fault with that speech ? Seeing Gerson the Moderator of the Councell of Constance , doubted not to preferre the iudgement of one man , before the whole Councell . u u DVR . Gerson did neuer preferre the iudgement of one man before a whole Councell . WHIT. pag. 349. It is vntrue , for he thus writeth . We ought rather to b●leeue in a point of ●octrine a simple man not authorised , but yet excellently learned in the scriptures , them the Pope . Againe a man thus learned , ought to oppose himselfe against a generall Councell , if he perceiue that the greater part incline to that which is contrary to the Gospel , either through malice or ignorance , Gers . de exam. doctr. 1. par. Considerat. 5. We are , saith he , to giue more credit vnto a man learned in the holy Scriptures alleaging catholike authority , then to a generall Councell : Tit. de elect . can . signifi●●sti . which also Pa●ormitan hath confirmed , writing in this manner : We ought ( saith he ) rather to beleeue a simple lay man , alleaging the Scripture , than the whole Councell together . You say further , That Kemnisius dared to peise the Councell of Trent in the ballance of his owne giddie braine . But Kemnisius did not examine that Councell by his owne square , but by the rule of Gods holy word : And what gained he ? ( say you ) and answering your selfe in your owne question , you say , nothing but infamie : If Kemnisius haue not your good word , it is no great wonder ; for he hath atchieued that by his learning , vertue and industrie , that he may seeme worthie of enuie and hatred from such as you are . But if true and deserued praise be due to good deeds , he hath obtained an honourable reward ; euen the euerlasting glorie of a good name . Yea ( say you ) if he take not heede , he shall be buried with Arrius . But it behooued you , Campian , to trouble your head , rather about your owne , then Kemnisius his funerals : and take you heede , least for your euill deedes , there be a sepulchre prouided for you amongst the damned .

Now here againe you begin more highly to extoll the Councell of Trent ; as though we knew not the notable carriage and behauiour of that famous and goodly Synode . But for my part I easilie allow you to be so farre in loue with it , neither in truth will I become your riuall . Sleidanus . Illyricus . Kemnisius . Caluinus . Ioan. Iuellus . Others haue spoken of it those things that are most true : both how it was called , how handled , and how it was dismissed ; and therefore I will not goe about to refute your affections . Let it enioy , for me , that credit and estimation which it can . Although euery one knoweth thus much , that it was not to bee esteemed a Councell of the whole Christian state , An assemblie of certaine men . but rather a Conuenticle of a few men running together into the same place . There was there present a sort of sill●e Friers which did susteine the greatest part of the burthen , by disputing , writing and playing the Orators . For as for the Bishops and chiefe Cardinals , they busied their heads about other matters , for which they were speciallie assembled . But as I said , let it be such as it was , for I am not offended at your commendations . And let the Bishops make their glorious bragges , that they long abode in that schoole ; out of which as yet , as farre as I know , not many , either learned diuines or good Pastors haue come . You also vsher in Antonie of Prage greatly congratulating with himselfe ; for you would needs shew him some kindnes , because he made you a Priest . Well ; Campian was created Priest by Antony Archbishop of Prage ; surely I feare lest you trauelled too far to buy such base wares . But now you may celebrate your Masses , seeing you are shauen and annointed , and made a Priest .

Moreouer you demaund & exceedingly triumph , why your Aduersaries called hither , and secured by the caution of publike promise , did not make all hast to come vnto it ? In which you are sufficiently answered in the Apoligie of our Church . For what should wee doe there ? or to what end should we vndertake so long a iourney , either that being mocked and abused , we might returne home againe , or being burned in the Councell , we should pay for our rashnes ? For what place of disputation was left amongst those , who had euery man plighted their faith to the Bishop of Rome , & had religiously bound themselues by oath , that they would neuer either doe or say any thing againg his dignity and pleasure ? what therfore might be hoped for from these , which might draw any to the disputation ? besides the * * DVR . Iohn Husse was not called by the Councell of Constance , neither receiued from it any publike promise . And whereas you say that it was decreed in this Councell , that faith is not to be kept with heretikes , it is false . WHIT. pag. 352. The Emperour Sigismund gaue him his publike warrant , which the Councel most dishonorably infringed . And after they had put Husse to death contrary to publike promise , they enacted a law that a promise made vnto heretikes by the Emperour or by any King or secular Prince , should not hinder any Ecclesiasticall Iudges from proceeding against them according to law . Concil. Constant . Sess. 19. calamity of Iohn Husse of Bohemia , and Hierome of Prage , whom the Fathers burned in the Councell of Constance , brought iust cause of feare . And yet Husse came to the Councell , trusting in the protection of a publike promise . Yea but ( say you ) the Constantine Fathers made no promise , and therefore did not breake any . But Sigismonde the Emperor gaue his publike warrant , vnto whom it was fit that he should giue credit . Notwithstanding , comming to the Councell , he was presently apprehended and cast into prison , and pleading his cause before the Councell he was condemned and burned , although Sigismond stormed at it . Neither did hee flie , as you falsely report , neither in truth could hee escape : but thus this holy and innocent man was deuoured like a sheepe by furious wolues . And what I pray you , did the Emperors authoritie , commandement , or publike warrantize profit him ? The Emperor ( say you ) signed it , but the state of Christendome , greater than the Emperors , did repeale it . And who then can be safe , if the Emperors beare no sway in the Councell ? Neither doth the horrible murther of Iohn Husse , contrarie to a publike warrant of protection , so much discourage vs from comming to your Councels , as that decree published by the Councell it selfe , That promise is not to be kept with Heretikes . Should I then beleeue you , who I know will keepe no promise ? If I doe , surely I am worthy to perish after the same manner . Hierome of Prage likewise came to the Councell of his owne accord , and making publike profession of his faith , was burned . So that the case of these two , ( than the which all Christendome at that time had not any more holy or learned ) shall remaine as a perpetuall monument of your treacherie and most horrible crueltie ; and as a notable caueat vnto all the godly , to beware of you for the time to come . Concerning Luther , whom you , cursed Frier , call the hatred of God and men , the hand and power of God himselfe so defended him , that you could neuer hurt him . For will was not wanting to you for the destruction of Luther , but opportunitie . But he was safe ( say you ) vpon the Emperors word : neither in truth durst the Pope attempt Luthers death , after the Emperor had promised him safetie . For would Charles the fifth , thinke you , haue endured it ? It was not behoofefull for the Pope to haue attempted any thing , whereby the Emperors faith might appeare falsified : for Charles would neuer so easilie haue put vp such an indignitie as Sigismond had done in time past .

But ( say you ) they doe too much brag in corners , in which when they haue but sounded three Greeke words , they would seeme to be very wise . They might perhaps seeme wise to you , who scarcely ( as I suppose ) can sound three Greeke words . They cannot ( as you say ) indure the light , which would bring a Scholler into account , and would recall him into some place of reckening : and is this it , Campian , which you hunt after , a name , same , places of account , to be poynted at with the finger , and to be thus spoken of , This is the man aduanced to greatest grace , excelling in worth , and worthy place ? Doth this grieue you that you are not highly esteemed of , and doe not sit in high place ? Well man , proceede in your vertuous courses , and goe forward in the way , into the which you are entred to your great praise , and there is good hope you may ascend vnto such an high place as you are worthie of .

But wheras you desire , That the English Catholikes may obtaine a Patent of impunity , if they loue the saluation of their soules , surely you require a thing vniust & vnequal . For what liknes is there in this , that learned men should assemble from all parts , vnto a publike Councell , and that Runnagates should be permitted to returne vnto their countrie ? We will ( say you ) with winged speed hast vnto the Court , relying our selues vpon the Princes word . And so indeed you safely may : for if shee giue her word , you may promise vnto your selues assured securitie . And I the more easilie beleeue you speake the truth , seeing some of you already , haue hasted into the Gourt , hauing no promise from the Prince to rest vpon . But Campian , flie you rather to the Indians , that you may take a suruey of your Popes new Prouince : for our most wise Prince desires no such guests , but banisheth you as farre as she can from her .

But now at length you returne thither whence you haue digressed , and gloriouslie conclude this poynt , concerning Councels : saying , The generall Councels make all for me , the first , last , and middle . You haue gotten an easie and speedie victorie : I am almost perswaded that you are become another Caesar : V●ni , vidi , vici , I came , I sawe , I ouercame ; but this is not to dart your Iaueling , which you say is looped for the purpose . I see words as it were tied together with strings , or rather franticke speeches ; but as yet I discerne no speare : either a Iauelin , or a thongue , or strength , or ( which I rather beleeue ) all these are wanting vnto you . Surely we of the Vniuersities , Campian , doe greatly desire to trie how skilfully you haue learned to tosse your speare , and we hope it will come to passe , that you being pierced with our darts , will at length know and acknowledge your audacious temeritie and slothfull ignorance of this fight .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The fifth Reason , which is the Fathers .

AS that famous Sirname of Christians increased first in a a Act. 1● . Antioch , so b b 1. Cor. 12. Ephes. 4.1 . Cor. 14. Doctors , that is , very deepe Diuines , and Prophets , that is , most famous Preachers , first flourished there . Our Lord himselfe prouided for his flocke in time to come , such a sort of c c Matth. 13.23 . Scribes and wise men , as were experienced in the kingdome of God , bringing forth both old & new things , that is , hauing God still both in Christ and Moses , in the new and old Testament . How mischieuous an act is it to expel with rebuke these men , which were giuen vs by God for a speciall benefit ? The Aduersarie hath * * This is false , for we neuer hissed out any learned scribe . expelled them . For what cause ? for that if they had stood vpright , he of necessity had fallen downe . So soone , as I throughlie perceiued that , without any more adoo , I desired to make , not that flourishing fight which the common sort of people vse , when they contend one with another in the open streetes , but that seuere and sharpe combate , by which we buckle ▪ one with another in your Philosophy schooles , foot by foot , & man by man , close ioyned together . If we may once come to the Fathers , the field is fought , & the wager wonne , on our side . For they are all ours , assure as Gregory the 13. is a most louing Father to all the Churches children . For to d d S. Dion . Areo pag. de quo vide Adon Treu. in Martyrel . Adon. Turon . Syng . Suid. Metap . omit diuers places , which here and there dispersed , being gathered together out of the auncient writings of the Fathers , do very fitly and plainelie fortifie our faith : we haue their whole bookes , which of set purpose do expresly and copiously paint out liuely that selfe same Euangelicall religion which wee maintaine . What orders of heauenly powers , what sacrifices , what solomne rites , doth that two-fold Hierarchy of the Martyr S. Denys , make knowne vnto vs ? That matter touched c c Coment . in 1.13 17. Deut. Item in cap. ●ab . Luther so nigh the quicke , that he affirmed this blessed mans writings to be most like to dreames and most pernicious . f f Dial. 5. & 11. Caussaeus an obscure vpstart in Fraunce , following the steppes of his Father Luther , blushed not to tearme this Apostle S. * * This Denys is counterfeice and forged . Denys borne in a noble countrie , an old dotard . g g Cent. 2. cap. 10. Inst. lib. 1. cap. 13 num. 29. The Magdeburgeans which lately set forth the Ecclesiasticall historie in Centuries , were greatly grieued at S. * * This Ignatius is counterfeite . Ignatius , so was Caluin also . Insomuch that these bench whistlers pried out certaine foule blemeshes and vnsauorie speeches in his Epistles . In these mens conceits also S. Ireneus writ one foolish toy ; and S. Clement , who was author of the booke called Stromatum , yeelded out of his works cockle and dregges . And the residue h h Cent. 2. cap. 5. vide Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. & Seqq. of the Fathers of this age , which were in very deed * * They were Apostolike men , yet they did not commit to writing all the things the Apostles did . Apostolike men , left vnto their posteritie blasphemous and monstrous doctrine . In i i Lib. de Prascript . contra Ha● . Tertullian they greedily catch at that fault , which being told therof by vs , they with vs also detest . But let them call to mind , the booke which he writ de Praescriptionibus , wherwith the heretikes of our time had so sound a blow , was neuer hither to reprehended by the Church . How sufficientlie and euidently hath * * This Hyppolitus is counterfeite . Hyppolitus k k Orat. de consum . Secul . Bishop of Portua foreshewed the raigne of Luthers heresies , which was a strong pillar ▪ in Antichrists building ? And for that cause they call him a most childish scrible , & a masker . That l l Iuel . &c. causs . Dial. 8. & 11. criticall French man Caussaeus , and the m m Cent. 3. cap. 4. Magdeburgeans do call S. Cyprian ( who was the flower and honor of Africke ) a blocke head , a man cast out of Gods sight a deprauer of the true doctrine of Penance : why , what hath he done ? he hath writ for sooth one booke of Virginity , and another of those that are Relapsed , and certaine treatises of the vnity of the Church , yea & such Epistles also vnto Cornelius Bishop of Rome , that except this blessed Martyr be disgraced , Peter Martyr the Vermillian , and all his confeder a●s , must bee taken for worse then adulternous & Church-robbers . And lest I should stand too long vpon particularties , aft the Fathers of that age are n n Cent. 3. cap. 4. generally * * This is false , for none doe condemne or reiect the Fathers of this age . condemned , as men that haue corrupted wonderfully , the sincere doctrine of Penance . Ho● I pray you ? the Austerity for sooth of the o o Canones Poenitenti● ve●eres . Canons which at that time was vsed , doth highly displease this plausible sect , which are fitter for Chambers then for Churches , and is accustomed to tickle sensuall eares , and to so ●cushions to euery elbow : wherein , I say , wherein hath the next age offended ? forsooth S. Chrysostome and other Fathers of that time haue fouly darkened iustification by faith only S. Gregory Nazianzen , whom auncient writers for honor sake , haue Sirnamed Theologus . 1. the Diuine , by Caussaeus iudgement , was but a q q Dia. 6.7.8 brabler and knew not what to say : S. Ambrose was bewitched of an euill spirit . S. r r Beza in Act. Apost. ca. 23. Stancha . li. de Trin. Hierome is as * * This which concerneth S. Hierome is all false . deeply damned in hell , as the diuell himselfe , because he was iniurious to the Apostle , a blasphemer , a naughty man , a wicked fellow . Gregorie Massonius esteemeth more of one Caluin , then of an hundred Augustines , a hundred is but a few . s s Lib. cent . Henrie . 8. Reg. Aug● . Martin Luther careth not a button , if there were against him a thousand Augustines , a thousand Cyprians , a thousand Churches . I thinke it will be to no purpose to wade any further in this matter , for who may maruell , if they that thus raile against these worthy men , haue also been saucy against Optatus , Athanasius , Hilarius , both Cyrils , Epiphanius , Basill , Vincentius , Fulgentius , Leo , and Gregorie the Romane ? And yet if there may be any iust defence of an vniust cause , I do not deny but the Fathers haue , wheresoeuer you reade in their workes , such matter , as may cause the Aduersarie to take pepper in the nose , so long as they follow their owne humours . For they that cannot away with prescript daies of abstinence , how is it likely that they can abide S , Basill , S. Gregorie Nazianzene , S. Leo , and S. Chrysostome , who haue set forth in print g g z●ch . 13. Praef. in cent. 5. very godly sermons , concerning Lent , and Ember daies , as things vsually at that time obserued among Christian people . Can those men chuse , which haue sold their soules for riches , bodily pleasure , daintie fare , and fine apparrell , but beare deadly hatred to S. Basill , S. Chrysostome , S. Hierome , and S. Augustine , whose excellent bookes of the order , rule , and vertuous life of * * But these Monkes were most vnlike to ours . Monkes , are vsually in euery mans band ? May they that haue intruded seruill will into man , that haue cut off all Christian funerals , that haue set on fire the reliques of Saints , continue friendship with S. Augustine ? who hath penned three whole bookes of mans * * But in these bookes he doth not establish freewill . freewill , t t Lib. 22. de Ciuit. Dei . cap. 8. & ser. de diuers . 34. & sequent . one booke of care to be taken for the dead , one long chapter of that his noble worke De ciuitat . Dei , concerning miracles wrought at the Churches , Chappels , and sepulchers of holy Martyrs , and certaine Sermons of the same matter . Can such as measure faith by their own captiousnes , refraine from anger towards S. Augustine , of whose penning there is extant a notable o o Cont. epist. Man . quam vocant . fundam . c. 4. Epistle against Manachie , wherein he confesseth , that for his faith he will cleaue vnto * * Yet in that very place Augustine preferred truth before all these . Antiquitie , vnity , continuall succession , and to the Church , which by prescription alone challengeth among so many heresies , the title of Catholike ? u u Li. 1. cont. Pa●men . Optatus * * This Optatus is an old Father newly printed . Bishop of Miletan confuteth such as tooke part with Donatus , by the Catholike community . Their wickednes he accuseth by the decree of the Pope Melchiades ; he reproueth x x Lib. 2. their heresie by the succession of the Bishops of Rome . He displaieth their y y Lib. 3. madnes , by their dafiling both of the blessed Eucharist , and also of the holy oyle . He abhorreth their z z Lib. 6. sacriledge , in breaking downe of holy Altars , whereupon Christs body is laid , and also in polluting of the Chalices , which contained Christs blood : I would gladly know what they thinke of Optatus , who is commended by S. a a Aug. lib. 1 cont. Parmen. De Vnit. ca. 16. & lib. 3 de Doct. Christ . c. 40. Augustine as a worthy and Catholike Bishop not inferiour to S. Ambrose , and S. Cyprian , and whom S. b b Fulgent . li. 2. ad Monim . Vide epist. Synod . Alex. ad Feli. 2. Fulgentius also recordeth to haue been an holy man and faithfull Interpretor of S. Paul , not vnlike vnto S. Augustine , and S. Ambrose . They reade S. Athanasius Creed in their Churches : Do they for all that beare him any good will , who hath highly commended as an auncient writer in an exact booke , S. Antony that hermite of Aegypt , and also hath humbly appealed , with the Councell of * * A counterfeit Epistle . Alexandria vnto the Sea Apostolike of S. Peter ? How often doth S. Prudentius in his Hymnes pray vnto the blessed Martyrs ? what Hymnes doth he endite in their praise ? how often doth he worship the King of Martyrs at their ashes and bones ? will they allow of this man ? S. Hierome in the defence of Reliques , and honor of Saints writeth against Vigillantius , and for the preheminence of virginitie against Iouinian : will they tolerate this ? An high solemne feast was kept by c c Vide Epist. de Ambros . ad Epist. It al. Fom . 3. Sil●● & tiusdem Amb. Epist. 85. Item Serm. 91. S. Ambrose in the honor of his Patrones Geruasius and Protasius , to the great reproach of the Arrians ; which act the holy d d August . lib. 22. de ciuie . Dei . cap. 1. Fathers haue highly commended , and God himselfe adorned with many miracles : will they be friends with S. Ambrose ? c c Greg●r . Tur. lib. de gloria Mar. cap. 46. Metaphrast . S. Gregorie the great , that Apostle of * * Gregorie the great was neither our Apostle , nor an Apostle at all . ours , is flat on our side and for that title is hated of our Aduersaries , whom Caluin in his fury doth deny to be brought vp in the f f Iust. lib. 1. cap. 11. n. 5. schoole of the holy Ghost , because hee called holi● Images the books of vnlearned people . A whole day would not be enough for me to reckon all the Epistles , Sermons , Homilies , Orations , Treatises , and disputations of the old Fathers , wherein of set purpose both grauely and eloquently , they haue confirmed our Catholike doctrine . So long as these bookes of these Fathers shall be sold at the Stationers shop , in vaine are the hauens and sea coasts watched so narrowly ; to no purpose , are houses , coffers , and chests straightly searched ; to no end , are penall proclamations set vpon so many gates . For none of our late writers , neither Harding , nor Sanders , nor Allen , nor Stapleton , nor Bristol , do more vehemently inueigh against these their new found dreames , then those Fathers do , whom I haue named : which things when I well considered , my courage began to rise , & I had a desire to fight , in which conflict , on which side soeuer the aduer sarie shall start , except he yeeld due honor vnto God , he shall haue the foyle : if he allow of the Fathers , he is caught ; if he disallow of them , he is no body . Thus it fell out when I was : a yong student at Oxford . * * This word Bishop Iewel did neuer eat , neither wil we euer renounce . Iohn Iewel the captaine of English Caluinists , challenged in most bragging sort all Catholikes at Paules Crosse in London , vrging and alledging like an hypocrite , all the Fathers that euer flourished within sixe hundred yeares after Christ . Certeine worthy men , which then for religion liued as banished men , in the Vniuersity of Lonan , thoug through the iniquity of the time , they liued in great distresse , yet answered his challenge . That subtiltie , follie , impudency , and saucines of Iewel , which the fore said writers haue luckily discouered , hath done so much good to the common sort of people in England , that within my remembrance I dare boldly say , there scarcely hapned any one thing more profitable , to the afflicted English Church then this . Proclamations forth ▪ with were set on euery gate , that no such * * But Bishop Iewel published the whole booke of the Aduersaries that all might reade them . bookes might lawfullie be read or kept in their houses , whereas Iewels exclamations at Paules Crosse , did almost extort the same out of the writers hands . But they that came to the scanning of this matter found that the Fathers were all Catholike , that is , on our side . Neither did g g Lib. de vita Iuclii . Laurence Humphrey conceale this blow giuen him and his fellowes , who when he had highly extolled Iewel otherwise , noted yet want of * * This is false , he neuer vpbraided him with any impudencie . discretion in him for this one thing , that hee for his part had allowed the iudgements of the Fathers in matters of controuersie , which when the said Laurence Humphrey without any circumstances plainly protesteth that he neither hath , nor will haue any thing to doe . I did once also familiarly request Toby Mathew , who new for preaching beareth the bell , whom for good learning sake and likely seedes of other good vertues , I dearely loued , that he would plainly tell me , whether he that so diligently read the Fathers , could be of that side , whereunto he laboured to allure his audience . He replied no , if he both read them , and withall beleeued them . * * This is most false , they who giue most to the Fathers are most dissenting from you . This his answere is very true , and I perswade my selfe , that neither hee now , nor Mathew Hutton , who as I heare is a famous man , and bent much to study the Fathers , nor any other of the Aduersaries , which do the like , do otherwise thinke . Wherefore , yet I might come surely to this combate , to encounter with such , who as though they had a Wolfe by the eares , are inforced to discredit their cause for euer , whether they reiect the Fathers or stand to their iudgement . For by doing the one , they trusse vp their trinckets to flie away , and by doing the other , they are streightwaies strangled .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the fifth Reason , which is the Fathers .

NOw Campian calleth vpon the Fathers , from whom , because hee presumes of a firme defence , he earnestly desireth a conflict , not like those light skirmishes of men in the streets , but a serious and constant disputation , such as Philosophers vse : Campian ( you see ) hath a better minde to conuerse with Philosophers , than with Diuines : for being furnished with Rhetoricke and Logicke , and hauing spent most of his time in often declaiming and in inuenting and answering sophisticall captions , he doubteth not of a famous victorie , if Philosophers were Iudges . But ( Campian ) these matters are not to be disputed among Philosophers , which are otherwhiles deceiued with probabilitie and apparance of truth , following that opinion which themselues iudge most agreeable to reason . This question in hand , must be discusted in the assemblie of most graue and learned Diuines , whom no iugling of words , no subtiltie in disputation , no wit , no cunning , no youthfull insolent boldnes , in quarrelling lying , or soolish vaunting , can once moue , much lesse remoue them from the truth they are perswaded of . Here can you not haue libertie to bragge of your counterfeit deuises , Philosophie may not sit as iudge in these controuersies , neither will those things , wherein you chiefely trust , be heere of any authority : you must leaue your owne erroneous and endlesse walkes , and be drawne perforce into the compasse and limits of Scripture and true diuinitie . For Christ and his Apostles ( as that discreete man said in the Nicene Councell ) commended not Logicke and vaine subtiltie vnto vs , Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 8. but a naked opinion , consisting in faith and good works : And this simple and sincere word of truth , will easilie dissolue all your cauils , will dispell your artificiall mists , and will hold you fast as in a net , so that the more you struggle to get out , the faster and straiter are you tied . But you haste to the Fathers , and say , If we may once come vnto them , the warre is ended . Now I must tell you , you make too much hast , and ouerslippe many things . Is the battaile ended , say you ? Why , who had the victorie ? This is verily childish and too ridiculous , but yet vsuall in your combats , to triumphe before the victorie . But I would heare how you haue finished the warre , with such admirable expedition : For ( say you ) the Fathers are as surely ours , as Gregorie the thirteenth himselfe ; the most louing Father of the Children of the Church . Giue me leaue to answere you in your owne words : My friends who are present , can you forbeare langhing ? What could be affirmed , more weakely , fondly , or absurdly ? Call you him , the most louing Father of the Churches Children , whom wee knew to bee their furious and mortall aduersaries ? And conclude you that other to bee as true as this ? I graunt aswell the one as the other , for both are most false . What thinke you ? haue you not got a famous victorie ? And thus ( Campian ) you vse to make an end of battailes , and put to flight great armies of aduersaries . What remaineth , but that as Conqueror , you bee crowned with a Laurell garland , and carried with triumph into the Vatican , and solace your self many yeeres with your deare Father Gregorie , that good old man ? But now ( Campian ) proceed and prosecute the victorie , which you haue gotten . We haue ( say you ) whole volumes of the Fathers , which doe fully , distincty , and purposely declare that Euangelicall religion , which we now defend . Now you muster and reckon vp your armies ; whereby you procured this victorie , looke well to them , you were best , and lay sure hold of them , lest they reuolt , and forsaking you , come to our Tents : for you force them to bee with you against their wils . So that in the most dangerous and important fight , they flie vnto vs with speede , and doe most sharply assault and batter you . But let vs consider your volumes : The two fold Hierarchie of Denys the Martyr , what orders doth it teach vs , what sacrifices , what rites ? Assuredly it teacheth vs nouelties , vnheard of in the Scriptures ; we therefore leaue both them and their author wholy vnto you . For , though this Denys , whosoeuer he were , was both for time ancient , and in his stile of writing , not vnlearned ; yet , that he should be the Ar●●pagit● , whom Paul at Athens conuerted to the Faith , is altogether incredible . If you aske me a reason of this my opinion , I pray you reade diligently and consideratly that which Laurentius Valla , and Eras●us of Roteradam haue written of him . Both of them perswade , by no fained surmises , but by very weightie reasons , and such as ( I weene ) you will hardly gainsay , that this Denys cannot be the partie you report him to be . You then haue no reason to be angrie with Luther or Caussaeus if they handled this a a DVR . You say that Deny● is counterfeite , but proue it by no reason . But Origen , Nazianzene , Zoph●ine Archbishop of Hierusalem , Damascene , Nicephorus , Euthemius , Dionysius Archbishop of Alexa●dria , acknowledge his bookes & him to haue been a disciple of S. Paul . WHIT. pag. 357. But I say that Antiquitie was altogether ignorant of his bookes ; which could not be if they bad been written of Denys Arc●pagita : for Eus●biu : diligently searching out , and setting downe all auncient writers , and all th●●r bookes and Epistles which they writ , mentioneth not ●im , nor his workes , neither doe any 〈◊〉 the Greeke and Latin Fathers speake of him . But who can thinke that the bookes of a disciple of Saint Paul should be vnknowne , and not highly esteemed● of all in those daies ? Besides he citeth the Epistles of Ig●●tius , as also the Gospell and Reuelation of S. Iohn , which must needs be written diuers yeares after the death of Denys Ar●●pagita : hee writeth ▪ an Epistle to Polycarpus and calleth him a ruler of the Church , when at his detah Polycarpus must needs be very yong ▪ for Denys was slaine Anno Dom 96. Polycarpe died 1●6 . being but 86. yeares of age ; he calleth Timothy his sonne , who was conuerted before euer that Ar●●pagita was : he acknowledgeth that his maisters had their learning from the Apostles , doth he not thereby deny himselfe S. Paules scholer ? finally the Church Hierarchie and all the names of the officers reckoned vp by him , were neuer knowne in the Apostles time ▪ For your authors they are all new and late writers , but two . The first Origen , whom Erasmus denieth Annot. in Act. 17. once to haue made m●otion of him in all his writings : neither euer doth Nazianzene . counterfeit somewhat roughly , and censured him freely . Where you say Caluin and the writers of the Centuries were offended with Ignatius , Ignatius . I confesse they had iust cause of offence . If heretikes alleaged him , to bee a patron of a wicked and detestable opinion , Caluin might with reason and discretion reiect him : how aptly and truly he was by them alleaged , I cannot tell , let them look to it . Howsoeuer it be , the truth ought not by his authoritie to be borne downe , whose credit is little , if any at all : you are not ignorant what the iudgement of all the learned is those Epistles of Ignatius . Eusebius indeed makes mention of some of his Epistles , and Hierome of others : but now many more goe vnder his name , which they haue not mentioned . Hierome b b DVR . If diuers of those things there cited out of him bee not to bee found , how . followeth it that those works of his which are extant , bee forged and noue of his ? WHIT. pag. 360. From thence verely it will follow that his works are not perfect , yea many things are found in his Epistles , which are incredible to haue been taught in those daies : as the strict keeping of Lent , and fasting vpon the Sabbath daies ; yea it was but latelie that these Epistles were printed and published , and so of the lesse credit and authority . also reports a saying of his ; Hier●n . Dial. 3. con. Pel. Theod. Dial. 3. and Theodoret another , which are not found in those Epistles which are caried about : what would you haue more ? Gratian himselfe fauours not ouermuch this your Ignatius . You see then , of how obscure , suspected and vncertaine reputation are these two , which you place in the forefront of your armie .

You are offended , that the Censors , as you call them , vpbraide Irenaeus , as in some thing fantasticall . We vse not to speake reprochfully of Irenaus , whom we confesse to haue been both holy and learned : but what is this to the purpose ? If Iraneus haue written something foolishly , must be therefore by and by , be wholy yours ? And if some where we haue noted his opinion , as not true and sound , doe we therefore reiect all his works ? Is this your manner of disputing ( Campian ) is this your skirmishing ? are you of opinion , that neuer any word passed from Irenaeus vnaduisedly , or which might iustly be tearmed vnreasonable ? Then tell c c DVR . You that acknoweledge , and admit nothing but the Scriptures , can by no argument confute this err●r . WHIT. p. 362. What may worse beseeme a liuine , then thus to speake ? What thinke you of these places : Christ when he began to preach the Gospell was about thirtie yeares of age ? Luke 3.23 . After his Baptisme Iohn maketh mention of three Pasleouers , and that in the third he was put to death ? Is not the time then very plainely set downe ? and indeede what can be more plaine and casie ? Hence we may obserue that the Fathers haue plainely erred , where you would hardly beleeue any man could erre . me , Campian , Lib. 2. cap. 39.40 . how Christ preached onely one yeare , yet was baptized the thirtieth yeare of his age , and died the fiftieth ? what , shall we beleeue , that Christ taught onely one yeare , and that the fortieth yeare ? will you denie this to be a very new , strange , and almost franticke noueltie ? Besides that , many write Irenaeus to haue been one of them , whom the Fathers call Millenaries ; thinke you that was not a franticke opinion ? And can you doubt of Clemens , whether hee hath sometimes sowne Tares ? what call you that , where he denieth , that Christ indeed did either hunger or thirst ? Againe , that Christ taught but one yeere , which he had of Irenaus ? Againe , Clement . Stromat . lib. 3. idem lib. 1. idem . lib. 5. that the Philosophers in hel expected the comming of Christ , & being taught by owne mouth beleeued ? Wil you deny those to be Tares ? and many of this kind are his to be found in the worthiest writers of that age . If you denie it , bring me one whom I will not conuince to haue erred by your owne iudgement . You dare not say , Tertul. we haue wronged Tertullian : But you will vs to remember , that the book of Prescriptions was neuer taxed ; which , for ought I remember , neuer was : though I confesse that writing , which you name , is notable , in which many things are written , very diuinely , against your Church . d d DVR . But you tell vs not any one particular whereby this may appeare . WHIT. pag. 365. I suppose you neuer read this booke , or else you would not make doubt of it . Is any thing more against your traditions , then that hee pronounceth a curie to them that shall bring any doctrine , but the selfe same which the nations receiued from the Apostles , and they from Christ himselfe ? And that men cannot be otherwise perswaded of the things of faith , then from the writings of faith ? when he gathereth from Christ sending of his Apostles , that no Ministers are else to be receiue , but such as Christ hath ordeined ? when whatsoeuer is later brought is forraine and false ? when he w●●●eth , that faith must be built and borne vp , vpon the writings of the Law and of the Prophets , the Euangelists and Apostles ? I wonder you are not ashamed of Hippolytus ; of whom Harding himselfe was almost ashamed . Hippolyt . Thinke not that we are ought moued with e e DVR . Why do you reiect this booke of Hippolyte as counterfeite ? Hierome affirmeth , that he was a Bishop , and hath written many Commentaries vpon the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 367. Will it therefore follow that this booke is not counterfeit ? nay it is the rather forged , because Hierom doth not number it amongst his bookes . Hyppolitus was a very worthy man , of whom Eusebius . Hierom , Theodoret , Nicephorus haue made verie honorable mention . But this booke is childish in the beginning , and in the whole altogether vnanswerable to his eloquence and iudgement . authors of so small credit , so lately drawne but of darknes , as they scarse yet haue learned to looke vpon the light . For what was this Hippolytus ? He writ , you say , of Antichrist . But how worthily ? that foolish booke of Hippolytus , which a certaine man , I know not who , of late daies published , gesseth , that the Diuell is Antichrist , and faineth many other things : which neither can be true , nor were euer esteemed for true . And yet you marueile we set him so light , whom no man regards or reads , or almost knowes . I can giue you good leaue to recken him for your owne , and if you will , let him haue a better note in your armie .

The accusation concerning Cyprian , Cyprian . is more haynous , whom all men reuerence for his singular faith and excellent learning . But Caussaeus tearmeth him senselesse and without God . They of Magdenburge , call him a corrupter of penance . Shall I be tied to take vpon me , and defend euery speech , which any man hath at any time vttered ? This Caussaeus I neuer saw , nor before this euer heard of him . But in as much , as you so odiously accuse him , I suppose him to bee some learned and godly man . Vnto that he saith of Cyprian , I answere that which I remember I haue read in f f DVR . That Cyprian which Nazianzene speaketh of , was not our Cyprian the Father of the Church . WHIT. pag. 367. Nazianzene certainely speaketh of the same Cyprian . for see how hee describes him ; He did not only gouerne the Church of Carthage , and all Affricke , but the whole West , and almost the East , the Southerne and Northerne parts : how thinke you , is it not the same Cyprian ? Nazianzene , viz. that he was in his youth dissolute and giuen to much vice , and worshipped Diuels , and vsed the helpe of Diuels : He was ( saith Nazianzene ) a worshipper of Diuels , and after a disciple of Christ . Nazian. de Cypri . Your vnreasonablenes forceth me to mention those things , which I had rather haue concealed . For in the Fathers imperfections , you sticke fast like a burre , and cease not to rub vp the remembrance of those things , which you should doe better , not once to touch , If these things which Nazianzene reporteth of Cyprian be true , then Caussaeus might say , that Cyprian at that time was foolish and godlesse . For I cannot thinke that Caussaeus would write so of him , but in regard of those times , or that any man would conceiue so iniuriously , of that godly Martyr : whereas they of Magdenburge complaine that hee corrupted the doctrine of repentance , therein they forge against him no new accusation , but rather disclose that which all men know to haue been too true . Cyprian wrote some thing of Repentance very vnseasonably and vndiscreetly , and not he g g DVR . O singular impudencie ! O intollerable arrogancie ! what , haue all the Fathers in that age erred so sousely in so great a matter ? As if they were ignorant that the works of repentance had any vertue any where else . but from the merits and blood of Christ . WHIT. pag. 369. What neede all this heate ? It had been your part to haue shewed that the Fathers who then liued , haue spoken nothing vnfitly of repentance , so had you confuted that I charge them with , which your heare will not cure . And what if the Fathers haue thought that mens works haue all their vertue and power from the merit of Christ ; will it thence follow they haue spoken nothing vnfitly of repentance and works ? As if Christ by his death had onely merited that we might by our works and merits deserue eternall life ; or that they who hold the foundation may not build timber or haie vpon it . alone , but all the holy Fathers of that time , were tainted with that error . For being desirous by seuere lawes , to limit and restraine the euill manners of men , they made the greatest part of Repentance to consist , in certaine outward disciplines , which they appointed : which seuere censuring of sinne & sharpe punishing of wickednes , might happely be borne withall : but when they thought the punishment of sinne to be discharged , Gods iustice satisfied , freedome from sinne , and certeine forgiuenes with righteousnes hereby to be procured ; herein they diminished the power of Christs death , they attributed too much to their owne inuentions , and in a word depraued the doctrine of repentance : because our sinnes are clensed and remoued , by no offices or workes of ours , but only by the blood and passion of Christ . And so your obiection of Repentance is answered . We doe not for all this deny the workes of Cyprian , nor reiect the bookes of any Father of that age , as you falsely affirme , seeing both he and they agree with vs in the greatest questions : but this is the priuiledge of you and your fellowes , that you euen greedily hunt after , and pursue , whatsoeuer is faulty in any author , as if all the Fathers errors , serued to make vp the body and faith of your religion . Something , you say , Cyprian wrote to Cornelius , which if we giue credit vnto : then Peter Martyr and his confederats , must be held for worse than adulterous & sacrilegious ; but what that is , I cannot so much as couiecture . I know that Cyprian sent many letters to Cornelius , but none of them accuse vs , either of adultery or sacriledge ; neither can you out of those letters alleadge any thing to our preiudice or your aduantage : but this is euer your manner , to proue nothing clearely and distinctly , but only to name the Fathers , and from their names , to raise certaine rouing & vncertaine suspitions . That which you write of Chambers and pillowes , I passe ouer as nothing else , but scoffing and reproachfull taunts , such as is common in euery varlets mouth . Now you come to the next age , and heere you mention Chrysostome , Nazianzene , Ambrose , and Hierome . But to what purpose I pray you ? Chrysostom . for what if Luther do censure Chrysostome sharply , because by too much aduauncing our works and merits , he obscureth the righteousnes of faith ? what though Caussaeus find some thing fabulous in Nazianzene ? Nazian. h h DVR . You freely graunt that Chrysostome , Nazianzene , Ambrose , and Hierome are on Campians side : and yet you pleasantly demaund are these Fathers wholy yours ? we , who are then true sonnes , doe not challenge them as halfe Fathers , but wholy our Fathers . WHIT. pag. 370. When did I euer grant Campian so much ? I should certeinly doe the Fathers great iniury , if I should adiudge them for Campian , who are so farre different from him . And for your kindred with them ; it is but as the Iewes were Abrahams children : for if you were the children of the Fathers , you would hold the faith of the Fathers . For the Scribes and Pharisies were not the children of Moses , because they sate in Moses chaire . Neither are they the children of the Saints , who hold the places of the Saints ; as Hierome . Neither haue they the inheritance of Peter , which haue not the faith of Peter ; as Ambrose : neither ought faith to be tried by persons , but persons by saith , as Tertullian hath written . We verily loue and duly reuerence the Fathers , yet wee acknowledge but one Father in heauen , and one teacher , which is Christ . And if you acknowledge them wholy your Fathers , why doe you forsake many of their opinions ? therefore are these Fathers wholie on your side ? what is this else but dotage , and to speake without witte or feare ? Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the diuell ; Ambrose . whether any euer said it or no , I neuer knew , neither is it greatly materiall ; the best & most righteous men , may sometimes be so farre bewitched , as they doe not in some things perceiue the truth : and you doe too openly bewray your malice , by labouring to raise an euill opinion of him , and to make vs infamous for such speeches as may haue a good construction , though at the first they seeme odious . Certeinly I haue read many Papists , and heard of some , all passing shamelesse , and malepere ; but more impudent then your selfe , in all my life , did I neuer know any . There is no end of your lying , you feare no mens censure , there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speake . Euen now you set vpon Beza with a fresh lye . He ( you say ) hath written that Hierome is as surely damned , as the diuell , because he was iniurious to the Apostles , a blasphemous , a wicked , and an vngodly man . That Beza affirmeth not these things , I protest and a●ow : let any man that will , see the place ; if it be otherwise , let me be accounted very infamous . For as for those first words , that Hierome was damned aswell a● the diuell , either they are by malicious cauelling fetched out of some other place , as all the rest are , or altogether forged , as the most . In the place alledged , there is no such thing : Concerning that he saith of Iniury and Blasphemy , I will set downe Beza his owne words , that all men may know your impudency . Euen Hierome , Beza in annot. noui Testam . in Act. Apost. cap. 23. saith Beza , if it be true that Erasmus vpon this place saith of him , is not only iniurious to the Apostle , in that hee findeth want of moderation , in this speech , wherin rather appeareth his Diuine courage but also is openly blasphemous , in that euen in Christ himselfe he hath found some signe of imperfection . Thus far Beza : the matter of his complaint , is about S. Paules sharpe answere vnto the high Priest , in which Hierome , ( as Erasmus testifieth ) in his Dialogues against Pelagius , findeth some want of moderation , & not only so , but euen in Christ himself , he looketh for some imperfection of piety ; which reports of Hierome , if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth , why might not Beza iustly esteeme him , in the one iniurious to the Apostle , in the other so blasphemous against Christ ? For what can bee deuised more vnworthy the Apostle then that in his answere to the high Priest , he should shew too much spleene , or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ , than that the grace , wherewith he was indued , was imperfect . But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldnes , in wresting the Scriptures , wherein he hath most iust cause of complaint : for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures , or they are so weake and easie of themselues , as they may be any way turned . And truly he must be very desperate , that should defend Hieromes interpretations . Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Caluin , then of a thousand Augustines : Luther is not moued though a thousand Austens , Cyprians , Churches ▪ be against him . The answere is ready : whosoeuer speaketh truth , in that respect , is more to be esteemed , then a great multitude that could not discerne the truth . They therfore that haue obserued the errors of the Fathers , either those you haue named , or the rest , which heere also you recken vp , Optatus , Athanasius , Hilarie , Cyrill , Epiphanius Basil , Vincentius , Fulgentius , Lee , and Gregory of Rome , and haue admonished the Readers of them ; are so farre from malepertnes herein ; as that contrary , they haue performed a work , for the Church needfull , profitable , and acceptable to all good and godly men . For as the true expositions of Scriptures , are to bee expounded to the Churches , so are the contrary to bee reiected . Hierom. Paul . August . Hierome saith well , it is the worst kind of teaching , to depraue sentences of Scripture , and to draw them perforce to serue our turnes . Wherefore we professe with Augustine ; All writers and their sayings must bee i i DVR . That trial must not be made by Apostate Monks , but by lawfull Pastors and doctors . WHIT. pag. 372. And why not I pray you ? is it because they are Monkes ? I thinke not : or because they haue departed from you ? That is the matter ; as it none might touch , reade , & examine the scriptures , but those who haue plight their troth to you , neuer to assent to the Scriptures , though they directly contradict popish doctrin we would willingly harken to lawfull Pastors , examining & interpreting the Scriptures , such as you haue none . Because with you examinations must not be made by the rule of the scriptures , but after the wil of the Pope , and all your Pastors haue tyed themselues to the iudgement of the Romish Antichrist : that , that which they see , they wil not see , if it displease the Pope , by whose spirit they are guided . iudged , according to the holy Scriptures , the authority wherof is more excellent , then the whole nature of man is able to conceiue : not that I disallow the opinions of the most worthy Fathers , but I follow those that come nearest vnto the Scriptures , and when the Scripture it selfe is manifest , I embrace it before them all . Whereas then we consider the sayings of the Fathers , and examine them by the light of Scriptures , we do here nothing vnwonted , nothing boldly or arrogantly ; but you haue alwaies been fliers of the light of Scriptures , as Tertullian speaketh : Tertul. de Resurrect. and therefore do so diligently prouide for lurking holes in the Fathers , that you may alwaies haue some place of refuge . For seeing Scriptures faile you , what remaineth , but that you seeke aide from any , euen the meanest ?

But you tell vs , why we do so much anoid the Fathers . I had rather you would tell vs why you doe so carefully auoide the Scriptures . For ( say you ) they that cannot away with set times of Fasting , must needs be offended with Basil , Naziancene , Leo , and Chrysostome , which haue published excellent Sermons of Lent . Christ ordeined no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospell , k k DVR . Who hath but so much as saluted the Fathers , and knoweth not this to be salfe ? for the obseruation of Lent is most auncient and ordained by the Apostles . WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be most auncient , but not instituted by the Apostles ; for Apollonius writeth that Montanus first made lawes for let and certaine fasts ; and Tertullian when hee was become a Montanist , writeth as much in his booke wherein he defendeth the fasts of Montanus . Againe , the Apostles neuer put any religion in choise and change of meats , Rom. 14.17 . Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1 . 1● . and so ordeined not Lene . Lastly the Churches of the Apostles differed much in this fast , both in their times , & in their kinds of meat ; as Eusebius & ●ocrates record ; which would neuer haue bin if it had bin Apostolical , at least as Papists do affirme , who take in for a truth , that those Churches would faithfully persist in the Apostles decrees . Lent was appointed long after , and the manner of obseruing it in those times , was not one & the same in all Churches . We both allow and vse publike and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occasions : as for your appointed , and yearely solemne fasts , we do with good reason reiect them , because they are full of superstition , and iniurious vnto Christian liberty . Our iudgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught : August . Epist. 86. I find it not set downe in any Commandement of the Lord , or his Apostles , what daies we ought to fast , what not . Augustine then knew not these your set yearely ceremonies of fasting , not your Lenten fast , which hath a certeine time and number of daies prescribed . Further ( you say ) they that haue set their soules to sale for gold , lust , excesse , and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil , Chrysostome , Hierome , and Augustine , whose bookes of the profession of Monkes are in euery mans hands ? what will you censure all to be couetous , lustfull , gluttonous , or ambitious that are not Monkes ? backe with that foot you were best , for feare of your head : for neither the Pope , nor his Cardinals and Bishops , hold it either necessary , or conuenient for them to lay aside , their abundant wealth , continuall pleasures , their dainty fare , their kingly honor , and thrust themselues into a Monasterie ; whosoeuer liueth after their fashion , cannot be well affected to Basil , nor any man that is holy . l l DVR . When you are ouercome by the truth , you slander our liues , and speake euill of our persons . WHIT. pag. 377. I do not slander you , nor detract from you , the world hath vnderstood long agoe what manner of men you were . If you be growne better I should be glad of it . But I know men haue iudged otherwise of this order , and such as did not hate your Monasticall life . For the Romish Cardinals and Priors did write thus to the Pope himself . There is another abuse amongst the orders of religious men , for many are so deformed and out of order , that they are a great scandale to the people , and hurt much by their example . We thinke that all orders ought to be abolished . For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excesse , making themselues drudges vnto their ambitions , banquets , and delights . And to conclude : in the whole course of their liues , so behauing themselues , as becommeth better sensuall and voluptuous persons , proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures , then graue teachers out of Christs Schoole . Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame vpon you , and hath done continually and most deseruedly ? you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge , which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault ; your Prelates and Monkes , whose goodly order and straite rule of seuere discipline , ( you report ) differ as much from other men , as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others , who giuing themselues wholy ouer to pleasures , ( while the most tooke great paines and alwaies did something whereby to liue ) thought their life the only true life . Such is and hath bin your life , that others must seeme not to liue , if that be to liue which you haue esteemed . But what need I answere you any more of fasting and Monkish orders , which haue not one Monke in your whole Church any thing resembling those of auncient time , neither do you obserue the old manner of fasting ? but you goe on , and vpbraide vs with fouler matters . They that haue brought a bondage vpon mans will , which haue taken away Christian funerals , which haue burned Saints reliques can they ( say you ) be well pleased with Augustine ? we ( Campion ) haue wronged no Saints , we haue neither burned their reliques , nor taken away their funerals : m m DVR . Therefore you haue taken away the reliques of the Saints , and the funerals of Christians , as superstitions and iniurious to the maiestie of God . WHIT. pag. 370. Are you so without iudgement , that you cannot distinguish betwixt things and the superstitious vse of them ? It is not these not any comely buriall we dislike , but Popish pompcions funerals and impious worshipping of reliques . only we could not suffer any prophane superstition , iniurious to the Maiestie and glorie of God ; and for this we haue the direction of God himselfe , being our patterne whom we follow , and Augustine also herein consenteth with vs : But we haue captiuated the will of man , and then ( you say ) how can we be well affected vnto Augustine ? well inough , why not ? for ( say you ) he writ three bookes of free will . A most witles and ridiculous collection : Augustine writ three bookes of freewill , ergo Augustine affirmeth that men haue freewill . If that reason be currant , then this also : Augustine writ a booke of two soules against the Manichees ; also a booke of lying ; another of the quantity of the soule ; ergo Augustine defendeth two soules in a man ; ergo he praised lying ; ergo he attributeth greatnes & quantity to the soule . I pray you what difference is there ? I graunt Augustine writ those bookes you mention , but they ouerthrow not our opinion , who affirme that the will of man is in bondage : & if euer you had perused those bookes , you would neuer haue affirmed it , nor once named the bookes in this matter . Augustine writ these bookes against the Manichees , wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill , which is the point in controuersie , but of the cause of sinne which proceeded from freewill , and he entituled those bookes of freewill , because in them he intendeth to shew , that the originall and beginning of sinne is to be found in mans freewill , not in God . This you might easily haue learned out of his retractations ; for thus he writeth . Retract . lib. 1.1 . q. The discourse was vndertaken for them that deny sin to haue his originall from the free action of our will , affirming , that from this would follow , that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable . And so proceedeth , vtterly denying , that he had any purpose in those bookes , to speake of that will , which is made free by Gods grace . And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen , which seemed to fauour the Pellegians , then Patrons of freewill , as you are now , all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke , and cleareth it from their cauils . Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine , which in this question is not against vs ? And that you may plainly perceiue , how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will , marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes : n n DVR . Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorance ? all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man , though free , is able to do nothing to merit heauen by , but by the grace of God . And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this , that by no necessitie it is carried to either part . WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much . But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace , and not made good by grace : so you teach that no new will is infused , but the natural is helped , and as it were vnloosed by grace ; which is not much from Pelagianisme : for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature , that it need not be giuen him from aboue , but only by the helpe of grace , to be drawne out of certeine difficulties , in which the corruption of sinne had left it . And as for my ignorance I confesse it , and thinke it more learned then your knowledge ; for if those who do things necessarily , do them not freely , then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely ; for God worketh well , and the diuell euill , necessarily . So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill : for not necessity , but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will . Hold thou fast ( saith Augustine ) this principall of piety , Delibere Arbit . 61.2 . cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee , either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest , or any way imaginest , which is not from God . And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill : after that being stirred by the Pellagians , he throughly vnderstood the question , viz. that he iudged it , to be vtterly lost and gone . o o DVR . The meaning of the place is this , that man so lost his freewill , that be lost himselfe ; yet so as no man in his right wits will deny , but he is a man still . WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire : for as man lost himselfe , and yet remained a man , but not such as he was , good , iust , holy , indued with perfection , but cleane changed : so the free will of man was lost , not that no wil remained , but that it was changed from good to euill ; for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all ; but no good wil : as we affirme not , there is no man at all remaining , but no good man . Man ( saith he ) by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe . Enchir. 3.

But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs , for ( say you ) they that make their captious deuises , the rule of their faith , must not they bee offended with Augustine , which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus ? An Epistle ( Campian ) do you call it ? it was euer accounted a booke : but what is there in that Epistle ( as you call it ) against vs ? in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity , vnity , perpetuall succession , and with that Church , which alone amongst so many heresies , hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription . We also agree with that Church , which hath all these . And yet to these must be added ( as Augustine saith in the same place ) sincere wisdome and truth ; else all the other bind vs not ; for they are of no value without that wisdome ; but this wisdome and truth , though without these , is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things : so saith Augustine , Cont. Fundam . cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly , so as it cannot be doubted of , it alone is more to be esteemed then p p DVR Augustine affirmeth , that these cannot be without the truth . WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie : for if truth cannot be separated from these , he had spoken very vnfitly , when he said , he preferred the truth before all these . If you can take or rightly challenge the possession of truth , in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity , Vnity , & Succession . all those reasons , that keepe me in the Catholike Church . Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone , and sincere wisdome , then all those things you mention , Antiquity Vnity , Succession , and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches , that none , that will see the truth , can doubt whether we hold the truth or no ; do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge , whilest you list , of antiquity , vnity , & succession , without the truth . There is then , as you see , no cause , why we should be angry with Augustine , either now or before .

But at length you leaue Augustine , and call out Optatus , Bishop of Miletum ; of whom you say , you desire to know , what our opinion is . I verily thinke he was a good Father , and very like vnto Augustine , and I take the things to be true , which many worthy men haue said in his commendation . But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church . Why should he not ? or what doth that concerne vs ? Augustine also obserued the same course , and it was a good motiue , that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists , which seditiously without cause , separated themselues from the Church . But wee deny your Church to be Catholike , and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs , though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists . It must first appeare , that it is the Church , before we can be conuicted of schisme . The q q DVR . So indeed Caluin answereth , but it will not serue your turne : for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church , because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire . WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire ? the externall seate , or the succession of Bishops ? you shall neuer proue it , and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe . Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow , and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement . With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship , by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination : Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike , because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops . Finally his argument was good against the Donatists , who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church , while they consented not with these Churches , where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did euer flourish . But it is nothing to vs and you . Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion , the maintainer of the true faith , and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches : no maruell then though the most holy Fathers , esteemed much the reuerence of this Church , & vrged the heretikes with the example of it , Irenaeus . August . as a great preiudice vnto them . Hence it is , that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome , therby prouing that the heresies , by them refuted , were not heard of , in the most famous and honorable Church . But since that time the course of the Church is turned , and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith , to detestable falshood . Restore vs ( Campian ) the old Church of Rome , and we will neuer separate our selues from her : but of that Church you haue nothing left , but the walles and old rubbish , yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church . And whereas you mention Altars , on which the members of Christ are carried , and Chalices containing his blood , I know well many things concerning Altars , are to be found in the auncient Fathers , which Altars in Africa , were not of stone , but r r DVR . What difference is there ? the Donatists ouerthrew woodden Altany , and you Altars of stone . WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge : not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament , but the ordination of Bishops , which yet was lawfull : we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry . Is there no difference , thinke you ? woodden , as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface : and I graunt the members of Christ , and his s s DVR . Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar . WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body , and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe , , as is vsuall in all Sacraments . For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father , where it shall remaine to the end of the world . blood are receiued in the holy mysteries , but after a heauenly and spiritual manner , Epist. 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith . As for your deuouring of flesh , Optatus was not acquainted with it , and the auncient Church of Christ , not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster .

They sing ( say you ) in their Churches , the Creed of Athanasius , but they fauour him not ; and why ? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit . You speake wisely ; as t t DVR . But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise , whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony ? WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt we well approue of the old Hermits , yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes , as we haue done and professe it for iust causes , seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements . Antonius the Hermits grandfather was wont to say , that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage , as for fishes to leaue the water . If you praise Antony so much , why do you not follow him ? why do you swarme in all cities and famous places , and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse , as fishes swim in the Sea ? so should you be more like to Antony , and free these parts from great damage . though we were so enuious , that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised : nay there is somewhat else . Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria , humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea : this Epistle is all counterfeit , compacted of many lies , and monstrous flattery . Prudentius I grant as a u u DVR . Because he was a Poet , forgate hee to be a Christian ? or did he any thing in verse , which infinit & learned ●athers haue not done before in prose ? WHIT. pag. 392. Who knoweth not that Poets were wont to weigh what the verse required , more then what piety called for , and to follow the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures ? And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault with : yet see how foolish it is to auow poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion . And if Prudentius followed so many Fathers , why name you not one of them ▪ For 300. yeares after Christ there was no such custome in the Church , which you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed : and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies ; but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the word . Poet , sometimes called vpon the Martyrs , whose acts he describes in verse , and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church : which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error . As for Vigillantius and Iouinian , against whom Hirr●●●● writeth most bitterly ; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge , we maintaine them not . That * * DVR . It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all . WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing , when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church ? was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers ? What gaine you by this , if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time , who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points ; whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church & consumed it , & the beginnings of corruptions in them , is growne to an height in you without hope of cure ? Ambrose should be carefull , to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius , we willingly permit . Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory , with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended , then we . But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes , hee neither learned in x x DVR . Answere me , in what schoole did you learne to breake downe Images ? not in the schooles of Christians , but of Iewes . WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost , Deut 5.8 . Iosh. 24.23 . where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship , and to cast out of the Church , to breake and burne the Images of men , though neuer so holy . Moses beate the Calfe to powder , & the holy Ghost commended Hez●●●a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent , though it was set vp by God● authority , when the Israelits abused it to super●●●ion ; how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images & monuments of cursed idolatrie ? Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple , hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint . As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia , who tooke downe & broke the Images of his time . I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of the Iewes , ●innike● and Idolaters , but out of the schooles of Christians , which may not be polluted with Images . the schoole of the holy Ghost , nor found y y DVR You shew your ignorance or impudency , when you know not , or deny that which is euery whereto be read among the Fathers , as in Theodoret , Domasen , Augustine , Gregory Nissen . Metaphrastes , Athanasius and others . WHIT. pag. 399. These testimonies do rather shew your rashnes & desire to deceiue ; for they are partly faired , as that of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius , & partly not to the purpose by them I vnderstand that Images were made , but they proue not that they were placed in the churches & worshipped . Your reason concludeth not , There were Images among the Christians before the times of Gregory : therfore they placed them in their churches to teach the people , and to be worshipped of them with holy worship . it in the books of the Fathers that were before him ; and thus at length , haue you finished this longe catalogue of the Fathers . The reason I would faine know , that moued you to go thorough them on this manner . For what ? are you so blockish your selfe to thinke , or hope you , that any others will like of this kind of reasoning : viz. Luther , Caluin and their confederates , doe write that Irenaus , Tertullian , Cyprian , Chrysostome , Augustine , Hierome , Ambrose , Gregory , Basil , and Nazi●●zen , do otherwiles erre in some questions in this or that booke , and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture , but were sometimes deceiued , that is , they were men : therefore they banish , reiect and condemne all these Fathers ? Is this your meaning , Campian ? why then do you your selues , being verie often by plaine authorities of the Fathers conuinced , deny flatly that you are tyed to the authority of any father , and from them you appeale to the iudgment of the Church ? Would you not thinke your self hardly dealt withal , if hence I should inferre , that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes ? But this is the issue of your disputation , and the marke whereat all this your discourse aymeth , namely , that because we dislike some things in the Fathers , which in their writings cannot be defended , therefore we violate all , we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers , we commit a hainous and vnhard-of wickednes .

Thinke not ( Campian ) our Vniuersitie to be so childish that they cannot discerne the indifferencie of our proceeding herein , from your vniust calumniation . The Fathers wee esteeme highly , wee peruse them daily , we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently studie Diuinitie . By this meanes we encrease our knowledge , and are better furnished with armour of defence against you . You are afraide to want time , and therefore you omit many things , Epistles , Sermons , Homilies , Orations , Works , Disputations of Fathers , by which the Catholikes opinions are confirmed . Some fragments perhaps , say you , throwne in corners , which without much paines and wearines you could not collect , yet your fellowes of late yeares haue diligently sought out and published : Whilest they ( say you ) are to be solde at the Stationers , so long our mens bookes are in vaine prohibited : we are sorry you should write such things , as we must of necessitie restraine , your bookes are such as it behooueth vs to stoppe their passage , vnlesse we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition , the Church in danger of heresie , and mens minds filled with cursed opinions . For if Magistrates ought carefully to preuent , lest the infection of the plague , be from other places brought into their cities ; much more care is to be had , that pestilent and pernicious bookes bee nor openly spread abroad , out of which simple and vnlearned men doe sucke poyson of deadly error . Neither are we the first that haue taken this course . You may remember in Queene Maries time , that they proceeded by marshall law against all those , with whom any of our bookes were found . If this were in vs a matter worthie of death , so that we were by and by drawne to punishment , as men guiltie of high treason , and that without any iud●●●al proceedings , small reason haue you to looke , that your bookes now , should haue such free libertie , to bee euery where publikelie solde . We take order , that the bookes of the holy Fathers , are brought vnto vs from euery matte , we buie them , we haue them in our priuate studies and publike Liberarie a wo● place them in open view , that they be knowns ; nor onely by face , but by dailie familiaricie . Where you affirme , that neither Sanders , nor Harding , nor Allen , nor Stapleton , nor Bristol , doe more ●●gerly inneigh against those dreames , then the Fatherd before mentioned : you haue added this saying as an ouerplus to the things that went before . These your old souldiers haue imployed in this case , whatsoeuer , either reading or leysure , or cunning , or wit , or diligence , or malice , could supply vnto them , and for all this haue gained nothing : and hope you , that are not worthy to be compared with these , to performe that , wherein they haue failed ? yet you said , that thinking of these things , your courage increased , and you desired the combate . I bewaile ( Campian ) your rashnes , and foolish hardines , which will needs take vpon you , the patronage of a desperate cause , with the vndoubted losse of your credit and safety ; and I wish that the day may once come , wherin you may make triall of your strength in the combate which you desire .

Iohn Iewel ( say you ) challenged the Catholikes , when you were a young student , calling vpon and desiring the helpe of the Fathers , as many as flourished 600. yeares after Christ . That worthy man , did that he knew himselfe able to performe : he had read ouer all the Fathers with speciall iudgement and diligence ; hee saw how you deceiued the ignorant , he had a care to preserue his countrimen from your dangerous error . And hereupon without any boasting , as you would haue it , but trusting only in the power of God , and the truth of the cause , he calleth forth all the generation of Papists vnto this triall , viz. if they could confirme their opinions by the holy Scriptures , or by the witnes of Fathers and Councels , they should ouercome : if they failed , they should confesse themselues were vanquished . Certeine renowmed men ( say you ) liuing as Exiles as Lo●ane , entertaine th● offer , and allow of the condition . Harding was the captaine of these , he aduentured himselfe hand to hand , in this combate , but how worthily performed he the condition ? I●wel calleth for Fathers ; Harding produceth certeine Clements , Abdies , Martials , Hippolyes , Amphilochytes , and others of this rancke , Fathers of worshipfull antiquitie : If all the auncient Fathers of the Church , be ( as you bragge ) of your side , why should Harding turne his backe so cowardly , bringing in for witnesses in a most waighty cause wherin we demaunded the iudgement of antiquitie , a company of vpstart bastards , I know not fromwhence , whom no man before had saluted , seene or heard of , passing by of purpose , the knowne and truly noble Fathers ? Is this the reuerend antiquity you talke of ? must wee haue these fellowes digged out of their graues , to helpe you in your desperate cause ? heare me ( Campian ) that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently , challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity , offering also to yeeld you the victory , if you brought one plaine and manifest authority , out of any Father or Councell ; that same we do all professe and promise , and will surely performe it .

Twentie yeares are expired , and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition : if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto , then your masters before haue had , why stay you ? why sit you still ? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause ? But alas , you are no body , you haue read nothing , you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor . The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel , as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers , or performed lesse then he promised ; but only that he had yeelded further vnto you , then he needed , and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures , to the authorities of the Fathers ; which yet he did not , as though he distrusted any thing , the triall of Scriptures ; for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors : but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie , which preuailed with many . You say further that you haue conferred sometimes familiarly with To●y Matthew , and w●●led him to answere freely , whether hee that read the Fathers diligently , could bee of that part which ●e fauoured . Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things , which we would not haue further reported , or dispersed , yet I doubt not , but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere , as was both agreeable to the truth , and fit for his iudgement and wisdome . Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers , nor doth our faith depend vpon their word . Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others ; yet may we reade them , & by their truthes be more learned , by the contrary more wary . And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man , whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers . And this also is all our opinions . After you haue thus finished your discourse , you will now ( as you say ) without feare come into the battell and fight with vs . You are still telling vs of armies , skirmishes , warres , campes and of your battailes : but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides , and the issues of battailes vncerteine . The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes , not in the stoutnes of words .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The sixt Reason , which is the foundation of the Fathers .

IF euer that saying ( a a Iob. 5. search the Scriptures ) was loued , and liked of by any , which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs ; the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded : for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out , and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages ; by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies , and from destruction ; by their paines and teachings , haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully ; they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures ; they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures ; they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures ; with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures ; they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting , with holy Scriptures . And finally they exercised themselues , euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures . And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors , vppon the common practise of the Church , vpon the succession of Bishops , vpon generall Councels , vpon Traditions of the Apostles , vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs , vpon the decrees of Pre●●●s , vpon strange signes and marn●●●●us ●●●racles , yet their greatest desire was , especially to fill their treatises , with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures . These they vrge , vpon these they make their habitation , to these Scriptures as vnto the coate b b Cant. 4. armor of valiant souldiers , they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place , like noble captaines , daily desending the Catholike Church , which is the citie of God , by them kept in good repaire , against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie : the which thing maketh me the more to maruell , at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie , who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer , complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures , where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged . So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures . Doth he speake as he thinketh ? I will see then that these most famous writers , most auncient Fathers , and most holy men , Saint Denys , S. Cyprian , S. Athanasius , S. Basil , S. Gregory Nazianzen , S. Ambrose , S. Hierome , S. Chrysostome , S. Augustine , and S. Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ , with the Prophets , with the Apostles , and with the whole furniture of the Bible . Grant good Lord , that , that religion may * * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England , which those Fathers did had and defended . raigne in England , I say good Christ grant , that , that religion may raigne in England , that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures , so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures . Looke what Scriptures they bring , wee will bring the same ; looke what Scriptures they conferre , we will conferre the same ; looke what Scriptures they alleadge , we will alleadge the same . Art thou also contented with this ? cough out Sir a Gods name , and tell me plainly what you thinke . I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly ; what meanest thou by saying rightly ? ô now I know , after thy owne fancy . Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing ? Then for as much as I am in good hope , that in the foresaid Vniuersities , that most freshly flourish , there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies ; not grosely , but with sharpe iudgement , and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially , but in equall ballance ; I will therefore , with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell , as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility , & force of Christs Church , against a monkes● multitude of ragged Rogues .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the sixth Reason , which is the foundation of the Fathers .

I Cannot wel coniecture , Campion , what these new foundations of the fathers may bee , which you propound vnto vs . As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere , and haue plainely prooued , that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpon . And it is probable that you thought so your self ; therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them , vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselues . For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers , that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles , because you saw that was too slender , and that no man would iumpe with you in that point , you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers . Now the strength , and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a a DVR . Campian doth not dispute so ; but say he do , what reproue you ? for he speaketh not of one Father , but of the consent of all , who flourished in one age , whom Saint Paul saith , Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church , Eph. 4.11 . WHIT. pag. 408. Then , as you confesse , I swarued not much from his sense . But thinke you the reason is of force ? The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures , therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation . If i● hold in the Fathers , why not in others which do search the Scriptures as well as they ? which if you once grant , you ouerturne your owne cause . And though they were Pastors of the Church , yet were there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church , who either writ nothing at all , or their writings are perished ; so that what they deliuered , we possibly cannot know : what a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all , when you can hardly name twenty in the most flourishing age that euer was , whose bookes came to our hands . Besides , the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs , except it were in the most corrupt ages . Lastly , the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church , were men , such as might erre , and who had no promise to be kept from error , if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures . The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently , they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures , they haue attributed the chiefe place to these : therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures ; and without sinne wee may desire no better . This either is the sense of this place , or else there is no sense in it . And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie , that I can hardlie discerne their scope : for what , I pray you , can bee spoken more loosely ? The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures : therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred . But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers ; which all may well be false , but more then one of them cannot be true . I will giue you one example for a thousand . b b DVR . We confesse euery Father may err● , but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error , which was contrary to faith . WHIT. pag. 412. As if this were not a matter of faith , whether S. Paul lyed , or whether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did . For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly , then may it be lawfull for vs to dissemble , and after confirme it with a lye ; both which are contrary to sound doctrine . But particular dissentions you stand not vpon , you desire to see some generall , when you grant euery particular may erre , will it not follow that all may ? But see an example . In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope , the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches . But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon , yea and by a third Councell held in Germany , this decree was againe condemned . One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued . Againe , haue you forgotten that Augustine with Innocent the Bishop of Rome , & other Bishops of the Church , did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants ? which error continued a long time in the Church . Thinke you these are not points of faith ? S. Paul writeth , Gala. 2.11 . that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face : what a kinde of opposition this was you would know , but cannot of your selfe find it out . You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter , one Apostle another , and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it : you goe to the fathers , you enquire of Hierome , August . & Hieron . in Epistol. and of Augustine , two very famous lights of the Latine Church . What do they tell you ? Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly . If you approue the one , you must needs reiect the other ; for you cannot consent with both . Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you . I know how , sayth Hierome , otherwise to account of the Apostles , then of other writers . Hieron . in Epist. ad Theophilis . They euer sp●●k● the tr●●● , these as man haue erred in some things . Yet they read the Scriptures , they were conuersant in them , and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them . From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust , and our defence most equall and iust . I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations : so you will confesse they are men , extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens , where they are now free Denizens . I could wish , that that which they constantly did , either you would do , search the Scripture , or suffer vs to do : then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue . But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice , and commended to our diligent search , you flie from and abhorre , as theeues doe the gallowes , you abandon them out of mens sight , and yet you haue neuer done searching ; for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried , mens inuentions , decrees of Popes , the corruptions of Churches , fained and forged bookes , diriges , scrappes ; dreames and fables , but the holy Scripture you touch not at all , lest , as I suppose , they would make against you . At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after , and search the Scriptures , c c DVR . We allow all to read the Scriptures , as many as can well and safely do it . And then we account the search good and sound , when men are able to interpret them not out of their owne heads , but by the authority of the auncient Fathers . WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature , that you will not reproue that which is well done . But may none else reade the Scriptures , but men qualified as you write ? then very few must spend their labour in them . But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures , not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers , yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life , and desire to know Christ , Joh. 5.39 . and not the learned only . as Christ hath commaunded , Origen . in Isas . hom. 1. and the ancient fathers haue done . And would to God ( as Origen writeth ) we all would doe that which is written , Search the Scriptures ) If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church , vnwritten verities , the Popes Canons , wee would willingly set vp our rest there ; but when wee are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures , doe not much blame vs , if we so farre , as you speake , subscribe to the fathers , as they agree with the Scriptures . For you cannot iustly blame that in vs which you confesse is commendable in them . d d DVR . If you thinke Christ commanded all , you are greatly deceiued , for how should the rude and ignorant search the Scriptures ? who as Augustine witnesseth must be saued , not by sharpnesse of understanding , but by simplicity of beleeuing . Moreouer Christ gaue vnto the people , Pastors and Doctors , and not the bookes of the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 417. Christ verily spake to the people , not to the learned , and if he commanded all the Iewes to search the Scriptures , why not all Christians ? but that they ought , is proued by these places , Act. 17.11 . Coll. 3.16 . Chrysostome vpon that place , Hom. 9. Hierome vpon the same . Origen . in Jsaiam hom . 2. Chrysost. in Euangel. Ioan. hom. 13. Further if the people be ignorant , you take the way to keepe them so . But they verily ought to haue knowledge ; and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect . Augustine as you would haue it , doth not maintaine the ignorance of the people , only he requireth not of them any subtile knowledge : all must beleeue , which none can doe without the knowledge of the Scripture , but the same quicknes of vnderstanding is not required in all . Finally Christ who gaue them teachers , gaue them also the Word ; neither were the Pastors to teach them any thing , but the Scriptures ; why then speake you thus ? as if these things ordeined one vnder another were contrary : It is worthy the obseruing , that in your iudgement Christ gaue not the Scriptures vnto the people ; if then they reade them , they meddle with other mens right . For Christ commanded vs aswell as them , to search the Scriptures . That therefore which is inioyned vs both , to search , it ought to be the purpose of both to finde out . And doe you iudge it equall , e e DVR . Who will beleeue that you haue found out , that they could not ? or who are you that accuse them of ignorance and error ? WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning , I am so farre from accusing them of ignorance . But if the Fathers haue often and greatly erred , which you must confesse whether you will or no : why may not we , who are commanded to reade the Scriptures aswvell as they , hold fast the truth we haue found , and reiect the errors they haue deliuered ? who while they liued , ingenuously confessed themselues ignorant of many things , and that they erred not in a few , and would also doe no lesse if they were aliue againe . that if they haue erred in searching , wee should treade in their steps , and reiect the trueth wee haue found out ? For wheresoeuer they find out the truth they sought after , wee receiue it and consent with them . And therefore , Campian , make you no doubt , we speake vnfeinedly ; wee will subscribe to the fathers , while they consent to the Scriptures . Doth this thing please you ? so it seemeth . For you say , You will see that these most ancient writers , S. Denys , S. Cyprian , S. Athanasius , S. Basil , S. Gregory Nazianzene , S. Ambrose , S. Hierome , S. Chrysostome , S. Augustine , and S. Gregory the great , shall come foorth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible . But what if they will not obey your commandement , neither serue for wages in your tents ? will you compell them against their willes to beare armes in your campes ? It is more then you can doe : they will not indure themselues to bee thus compelled or forced . You call them man by man , but they wil not answere to those names : yea , both these now named by you , and all auncient fathers doe proclaime open warre against you , and if you please , let vs spend a little time in the triall of it .

This Deuis whosoeuer he was cannot be on your side , while you maintaine f f DVR . We Catholikes neither defend nor acknowledge a priuate Mass● , for all Masses are said by a publike Minister of the Church , in the name of the whole , and for the saluation of all the children of the Church is it offered . WHIT. pag. 428. It is childish to contend about the Word , you defend such a Masse as the Church knew not in the daies when Denys liued ; for your Masses are performed by one , but the forme he speaketh of , is performed by many . And what if a publike Minister do it , yet that being done of one must needs be priuate , specially when either there are no people present , or if they be present , yet they do nothing but looke on : and what profit can come to them by that hee doth ? as if that meate the Priest eateth feedeth the people . Besi●es Christ neuer ordained such an offering , himselfe once offered , is the sacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church . Againe , what needeth the people once to communicant with him , or what greater fruits shall they haue by it , if they doe ? Lastly if the whole people may receiue saluation from that Masse which they neither tast , see , nor yet dreame of , why will you not grant that Christ may be present to our faith , though we be farre disioyned from his body . priuate Masse . For he hath described the publike communion of the whole Church , such as Christ at the first instituted , and the ancient Church euer held . The very same thing doth Iustine the Philosopher and martyr , Iustin. Apol. 2. who in his Apologie before Anthony the Emperour , layd open the order of discipline , which Christ held in his holy assembly . At that time the whole people receiued g g DVR . Jf you had but lightly read ouer Iustine , you would neuer haue been so impudent , for hee altogether alloweth our iudgement , and no where speaketh he of bread and wine giuen to the people . WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place , you might haue seene the contrary to your opinion and to all that you say , his owne words shall manifest all . They , who with vs are called Deacons , giue to euery one that is present part of the bread , wine and water , for which thankes are giuen . Can any thing be said more contrary to your , and more manifest for our opinion . bread & wine , now with you they receiue neither . h h DVR . Yet Cyprian writ thus Epist. 55. The premacie is giuen to S. Peter that it might appeare there is one Church and one chaire . WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words , but Pamelius who hath corrupted Cyprian , bringing out of the margent into the text , as appeareth by auncient copies . And Gratian also obserued the same , Causa . 24.9.1 . loquitur . Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter , Cyprian . de Simplicitat . praelat . Lib. 1. Epist. 4. and directly affirmeth that they haue like honour and authoritie with him , and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome . Therefore he must needes deest your Pope , who preferreth himselfe both in dignity & authority before all other Bishops , & from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales . i i DVR . Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale . WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well , you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops , who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes , would haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop . And in his discourse . 1. He shewed that causes ought to be heard where the crimes are committed . And so not things done in Afrike , at Rome . 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke , for which he must giue an account . Then not the Bishop of Rome the whole , nor the administration of all causes : finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men , who thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries , and so with reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome . Is there heere any thing lesse then we haue affirmed ? Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without question . Lactan. 2. cap. 19. k k DVR . Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians , but of the Idols of the Heathen , which he condemneth because they are made of the earth : besides the Ieves had their Cherubins . WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols , but Images , such as your Church is full of , and so can there be no religion in it . Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs , but made of the earth as theirs , who pretended for themselues , as he writeth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do , that they worshipped not the Images , but the God , expressed by them . Further for the Cherubins , they were placed in the most holy place , into which the people might not enter , not yet looke in : and shew vs particular precepts for yours , as they had for theirs , and we haue done . But he that commanded theirs , forbiddeth euery where all others . There can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image . If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images , would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion ? Athanasius affirmeth , Athanas . conts a Gentas . That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth : wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of your l l DVR . Will not all your Vniuersity men account you a cosener , when Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius , say asmuch as I affirme : The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues , why do you reptoach me ? but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers : he doth , but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures , but as Commentaries vpon them . For , saith he , by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture . These words make not for you , neither against vs , therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite . traditions . Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women , Epipham . lib. 3. Haeres. 79. who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship , and condemneth all that superstition . m m DVR . Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints , but reproueth ●omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary a● to a G●●ld●●●e . WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only ; his words are plaine . ●et none of the Saints be adored . The word he vseth signifieth to bow and prostrate our selues , and to worship one with Diuine honor ; which being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none , saith he , worship the Virgine Mary . What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women , but also men , and all mortall wights n n DVR No C●t●o●ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary . WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints : I pray you what may be the meaning of this ; you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints ? let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women ; what Scriputre ●peaketh any thing of this matter ? Then answere ; your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary , or for her ? whether soeuer , Epiphanius saith It is foolish , strange , and that which proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe , who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints ? And no man is found either so greatly couetous , or so little superst●tious , but he voweth somewhat to some Saint , specially to the Virgin Mary offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary ? Basil . in Epist. ad Cleric Neocaesariae . Basil is the author , that in his dayes there was a o o DVR . Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches . WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil , reade the place and you shall find these words there . The c●●ome we now keepe , is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God . And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt , Afrike , Thebes , Palestine , and all who vse singing of Psalmes . custome in all Churches , that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies . But in your Churches the people can p p DVR . As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people , vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈◊〉 : what a foolish dreame is this . WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle , then watch with you ; for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6 . He that speaketh a strange tongue , speaketh not vnto men , but vnto God , vers. 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues , what shall I profit you ? Strange tongues then profit not , vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had . neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read ; but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes . q q DVR . Gregorie neuer thought so , but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition ; neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians , but of that which is spent in the duties of charity . WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words . Hierome the Philosopher , saith he , proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues was more to be wished for , and more profitable , to the end he might make choice of it . And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only , but for all others , who beare the same nature with him , he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life . Doth he not now preferre this life ? and from the praise he giueth the other , he hath somewhat detracted , when he sheweth that it is only for themselues , and so lesse profitable and fruitfull ? Finally what is a Christian life , but that which is spent in the duties of charity , for all Christians are bound vnto these duties . Then notwithstanding all these , Gregorie is still with vs . Nazianzen . de haer. Philosoph . Nazianzene speaketh no lesse honourablie of this ciuill and sociable life , than of the solitarie life of Monkes : which your cloister men cannot indure . Ambros . in Rom. cap. 1. r r DVR . Ambrose codemneth suffragators , not intercessors , that is , such as might informe God , what we are , not such as might commend our wants to him . WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants , without an intercessor , as what we are without a suffragator . If he do , why should the one be allowed more then the other ? This new distinction of yours , I thinke our Vniuersity men , neither know , not wil acknowledge : or what is intercession but a suffragation ? or what do you els desire of the Saints , but that they would speake fauourablie for you to God ? Ambrose enueigheth bitterly against them , who thinke it necessary for them , when they would goe to God to vse some mediatours , as men doe in courts of Princes , before they can bee brought to the King himselfe , they must seeke the fauour of some of his neere attendants . Doth not this thing touch you , doth not this speech draw blood of you ? who neuer aske any thing of God in your prayers , but first you seeke some of the Saints to bee a mediatour for you , to whom you commend the care of your businesse and requests . Hieron . Ep. s s DVR Hierome neuer writeth thus , but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest , and a Deacon , as was betwixt Aaron , and his sonnes and the Leuites . Epist. ad Euagr. And if there be equality , it is in iurisdiction , not in power of order . WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely , that the Apostle doth plainly teach , that a Bishop , and a Priest are all one : and this he proueth by many testimonies of the Scripture . And vpon the 1. chap. to Titus , hee affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is aboue a Priest by custome , not by Gods ordinance . And so must that be vnderstood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle . And where you acknowledge the same iurisdiction of both by the law of God ( which happely slipped from you vnawares ) their vnequall power must needs be only by the law of man . Hierome did too much contemne your Pope , and other your glorious Bishops , when hee writeth that a Priest and a Bishop , by the law of God are all one ; doe you iudge him worthy to bee a Father of the Romish Church , the Bishop whereof you make not onely to be farre aboue all Priests , but also all Bishops ? t t DVR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all , and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it , least any of the Manichies . who superstitiously and wickedly abstained from blood , might looke among the Catholikes . WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answere , though your Gratian bee against it . But who seeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause , who make the Manichies the first author of the dismembring of the Supper . But whosoeuer did it , Gelatius censureth it thus . The diuision of one and the same mystery cannot bee without great sacriledge . And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacriledge . Gelasius who himselfe was a Bishop of Rome , condemneth your drie and maimed supper as Sacrilegious , and strictly commandeth , De consecrat dist. 2. Comperimus . Vigil . lib. 1. cont. Eutych . that either the whole be receiued , or it be wholly omitted . Will the authoritie of the Pope moue you no whit at all ? Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from vs in his humane nature . u u DVR . Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrew from the world the visible presence of his humanity , and not the humane nature himselfe . WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after shew the cleane contrary . He therfore is with vs , and not with vs , because whom he left , and from whom he departed in his humanity , he hath not left , nor forsaken in his Diuinity . And againe , in lib. 4. contr. Eutych . when he was in the earth , hee was not in heauen : and now that he is in heauen , hee is not in the earth . And againe : hee was circumscribed in a place according to his humane nature , and not conteined in a place according to his Diuinity : this is the Catholike confession and faith , which the Apostles haue deliuered ; the Martyrs haue confirmed , and the faithfull haue kept to this day . If this be the Catholike faith , then are not you Catholikes who iudge farre othe●wise of the humanity of Christ . The Sonne of God in his humane nature is gone from vs : but in his diuine nature hee is alwayes with vs , whereas you say Christ is present in both natures . * * DVR . Chrysostome , because hee saw many so addicted and giuen to theaters , stage plaies , and impious Interludes , did thus admonish them , lest they should distast the reading of the Scriptures . WHIT pag. 458. Be it so : haue you also no impious places and spectacles and prophane exercises ? And yet with you any thing is lawfull , saue reading of the Scriptures . But who so readeth Chrysostome , in Ioan. hom. 13. in Epist. ad Coloss. hom. 9. de Lazaro hom. 3. shall find that he required this simplie , necessarily , and generally of all men . Chrysostome exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles , Chrysost ad Coloss. hom. 9. & in Ioan. hom. 8. reade the Scriptures , and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife , the father with his children , would conferre among themselues of the Scriptures . But this neither can , nor lawfully may be done in your Church , yea , it is a certaine proofe of an heretique , for any to haue the Bible in his house . What shall I say of Augustine , who in the greatest and most principall controuersies , as of grace , predestination , free will , iustification , the Scripture , the Law , the Gospel , sinne , good workes , Sacraments , and Church is wholly and fully ours . I should neuer make an end if I should pursue particulars , and collect but a little of euery thing . Gregor. lib. 4. Epist. 30. & 34. Gregory the great , though he was a Bishop of Rome , yet will he take our part against you : For tell mee , doth hee not touch your Pope to the quicke , when peremptorily he affirmed , that whosoeuer should call himselfe the x x DVR . Gregory condemned Iohn , because he sought for such an authority ouer all Bishops , as the Emperour had ouer the Kings , who are subiect vnto them . WHIT. pag. 460. Whether Iohn of Constantinople sought such a power or no ; it is not certaine : but no man can be ignorant , how the Pope affecteth it : And long ago hath not only got authority ouer the Bishops , but hath subdued the Emperour himselfe : which Iohn of Constantin●ple neuer once assayed to do . Gregory telleth vs what he meaneth by vniuersall Bishop , he who endeuoureth to bring into subiection to himselfe all the members of Christ by the title of vniuersall . Whereby he toucheth home your Pope , who subiecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head : neither did euer any Emperour rule more tyrannously ouer his Kings and vassals , then the Pope hath ouer the Bishops of all Churches . vniuersall Bishop , vndoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist ? Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome . Iohn of Constantinople being a proud man , and very insolent , and ambitious , first challenged this vnto himselfe : Gregory while hee liued earnestly and constantly withstood him . And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople , and giuen to the Bishop of Rome . Leaue trifling , Campian , and euen tell me plainely , y y DVR . Who seeth not in what sense th●se Bishops of Rome would not this name vnto themselues , though they alwaies professed them Bishops of the vniuersall and Catholike Church , and the Vicars of Christ . WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not meane to be vnderstood of any who speake on this manner : but tell vs , is the Pope vniuersall Bishop or no ? If he be , how commeth the change , that , that which was Antichristian in the Patriarke of Constantinople by the iudgement of Pelagius & Gregorie , both Bishops of Rome , should be Catholike and holy in the Pope ? For that which so insolently Iohn of Constantinople tooke vnto himselfe , and enioyed for a while , not long after Boniface the third earnestly tooke vnto himselfe , and translated to his successors , as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. & Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca . They then haue not only the thing , but the name , and so are Antichristian . if that name in the Bishop of Constantinople was a signe of the approching of Antichrist , why may wee not iudge it in the Bishop of Rome , a notable ensigne of the same Antichrist ? now I haue giuen you a taste by which you may iudge other things : you must either get you other fathers , or for all these you must needes yeeld as ouercome . Doe wee at length speake without riddles ? what is it you els desire of vs ? wherefore Campian , get you into this campe , and shew forth all your valour : you shall verily finde you haue to deale , not with naked and vnarmed beggars , but with well appointed and well harnessed aduersaries .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The seauenth Reason , which is the Historie .

THe auncient Histories of former times , do plainly discouer the true forme of the Primitiue Church , thither doe I appeale : as for the auncient Historiographers , Generales Historici . whose authority all the aduersaries doe sometime vsurpe , these are well nigh all of them . Eusebius , Damasus , Hierome , Ruffinus , Orosas , Socrates , Sozomenus , Theodoretus , Cassiodorus , Gregory of Tours , Oswaldus , Regino , Marianus , Sigibertus , Sonoras , Cedrenus , Nicephorus . What song , I pray you , doe these men sing ? a song in praise of Catholikes of their prosperous proceedings , of their interchangeable alterations , & what enemies they had ; yea moreouer ( which I would haue you wel to mark ) these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake , Hareticorum Chronica & Historica . Anno Dom. 1500. to wit , Philip Melangthon , Pantalion , Functius , and the Magdeburgeans , when they went about , to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiasticall History , they should haue had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. yeares after Christ , except they had gathered together the acts of those men , that take our part , and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church . Consider also the particular Historiographers of some speciall countries , Historici certarum Gentium . who bended themselues curiously and busily to search out the speciall affaires of euery such people as they vndertooke to write of . These as men desirous by all meanes they possibly could to enrich and beautifie that worke they had in hand , omitted not so much as banquetting feasts , or long sleeued coates , or strange haftes of daggers , or gilded spurres , and such like trifles , but they made mention thereof , if it had any smacke of noueltie . These men doubtlesse , if there had been any alteration in religion , or any digression , from their former faith , which was in the Primitiue Church , that had come to their eares , many of them would haue recorded it : if not many , yet some few of them at the least ; if not some few , yet some one or other doubtlesse would haue made mention thereof . * * This is false , for many haue made mention of the corruption of the Church . But no body at all , neither friend nor foe , made any muttering , or gaue any inkling of any such matter . As for example sake , the aduersaries grant ( because they cannot otherwise chuse ) that the Church of Rome , was once an holy Catholike and Apostolike Church , euen then when it deserued these commendations of a a Rom. 1. S. Paul , Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world . I cease not to remember you in my prayers . I b b Rom. 15. know that when I come vnto you ; I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of c c Rom. 16. Christ . All the Churches of Christ do greet you , for your obedience is spread abroad in all places . Then also , when S. Paul hauing free d d Act. 28. liberty of the prison , there preached the Gospell abroad . Then also , when S. Peter gouerned the Church , gathered together long agoe in that Citie of Rome , which hee called by the e e 1. Pet. 5. name of Babylon . * * Campian acknowledgeth that Rome is Bayblon . The when that same S. f f Hieron . in cap. semp . Eccl. & Papias apud E●s●b . 2. Hist. 15. Clement , whom the g g Philip. 4. Apostle so highly commendeth , was chiefe head of that Church : then also , when h h Fren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Inst , lib. 4. cap. 2. num. 3. & in Epist. ad Sadol . vide Co●l in Anno 1523. Heathen Emperours , as Domitian , Nero , Traiane , and Antonius most cruelly murthered the Bishops of Rome . Then also , * * This is false , Caluin testifieth no such thing . Caluin himselfe doth witnes , * * This is false , Caluin testifieth no such thing . when Damasus , Syticius , Anastasius , and Innocentius were gouernours of the Sea Apostolike . For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swarued , especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospell . At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul ? when fainted faith which before so flourished ? In what age , vnder what Pole , vpon what occasion , by whose compulsion , by whose power , hath a new strange Religion inuaded , not only that citie of Rome , but the whole world besides ? what outcries , what rufflings , what weeping and wailing hath it caused ? were all men in all the world besides in a dead sleepe , while Rome , I say , Rome brought forth new Sacraments , new sacrifice , and new doctrine of religion ? There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greeke , neither abroad nor at home , which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his bookes of so notable a matter , though it had been neuer so slenderly . Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough , if the Historie which is a faithfull witnes of antiquity , and the life of memory , do in many and sundry places copiously entreate and spoake of that faith which we professe : and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirme , that , that faith which the aduersaries do thrust vpon vs , was 〈◊〉 allowed in the Catholike Church ; then are all the Historiographers on our part , and the inuasions of the aduersaries are not friuolous , and such as can make no man afraid , except it bee first granted , that all Christians throughout euery age , haue fallen to grosse infidelity and consequently into the deepe pit of hell ; vntill that Frier Luther committed aduoutrie with the Nunne Katherine Bore .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the seauenth Reason , which is the Historie .

NOw you call vs to Historie , the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity : and all that haue taken paines in publishing the Ecclesiasticall Historie , their names you set downe , and like dumbe showes , you carry them in great pompe : as though , Campian , the particular naming of all that haue published any Historie were sufficient for the remembrance , and searching out the monuments of Antiquitie . What insolent new kind of Logicke is this , to recken vp the Historians of the whole world , and of particular countries , and then conclude they are your owne ? Haue you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge , that whatsoeuer you lay your hands vpon , shall by and by become yours ? we haue long since perused the auncient Chronicles , wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set downe , and we find not that they fauour you more then vs . If in them be some things against vs , many moe , and more waightie testimonies they haue against you , and such as giue you a deadlie wound ; else would wee neuer haue collected the Histories of the auncient Church so accuratelie , and diligentlie , penning them exactlie , and distinguishing the seuerall ages and times ; neither would wee haue published them in the world , if they were so contrarie vnto vs , as you surmise : for who haue taken more paines to finde out , or more faithfullie restored the Ecclesiasticall Histories , then our men , without whose labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlinesse ? We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie , and seeing you appeale to auncient Histories , wee condiscend ; yet with this caution , that we be not tied to those things which were apparantly blemishes in the auncient Church . Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done , doe not so much teach vs what ought to bee done , but haue an eye to that which was then performed , and by that meanes set downe many things worthie of reprehension , rather than imitation : and for the most part it happens , that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ ; and euer the later writer the more corrupt . But here you exclaime that wee seeke euasions , and very peruersly you slaunder vs , that because wee doe not allowe all , wee refuse all . They that reforme what is amisse , doe not blame the rest that is not faultie . Striue while you list ( Campian ) and crie out of mazes and labyrinths , at length will you , nill you , by the cares must wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures .

And herein , Campian , you very much a a DVR . And why may not Campian trumph , for what impudencie is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies ; and yet you cannot tell , when one of them euer began , in what Popes time , by what meanes , how it increased in the Church ? WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons , not raylings . But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt , because wee cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt ? but being so manifest as it is , what need we search the Histories to shew the beginning ? what I pray ? if you see a man sicke of the pestilence , a citie corrupt with riote and wickednesse , a house ruinous and readie to fall , a shippe sincking ; will you deny all these , vnlesse one can tell you the time when he began to be sicke , the meanes how the city grew corrupt , who was ownet and in what yeare the house grew ruinous , and in what da●e the shippe began first to leake ? And what is the force of your reason and demaund other then this ? But , doe not your owne Histories tell when and by whom innouations and corruptions entred ? see a few of them . Hee that first vsurped authoritie ouer other Churches was Pope Victor , after him Zozimus , Boniface , Celestiue , and the● successura . Pope Syricius first fo●bad Priests marriages . The Manichies first denied the Cup to the people . The Nicene Councell first ordained worshipping of Images . Pope Nicolas the second , first taught : the bodie of Christ must carnally be handled , broken and eaten . Pope Jnnocent the third , first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation . Boniface the third , that the Pope was the head of all Churches . Gregorie the great taught Purgatorie first for a certeine truth . The Florentine Councell , that the Pope was aboue Councels . Jnnocent the third , brought in auricular confession . If these were not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more . triumph , when you demaund at what time , vnder what Bishop , by what way , and proceeding , was a new religion spread ouer the Citie of Rome , and the whole world : and doe not doubt , but that if any change and declining had been , many writers would haue made mention of it , or diuers , or one at the least . It is hard for vs to answere at what time , neither is it necessarie to set downe the very instant of time . All things were not at once ouerturned in the Church of Rome , sinne and wickednes came to his height by degrees , and by leisure to ripenes ; the haires of our head are not all gray of a suddaine , neither doth any thing suddainely come to his maturitie , and the growth of euery thing appeareth long after . This is manifest in such things , as hauing small beginning goe on forward vnto a greater quantitie , vntill they come to perfection ; you cannot deny , but there was a great alteration of Religion , in the Church of b b DVR . It is not hard to know the heresies of the Iewes , for Philastrius , Epiphanius , Iosephus , haue written of them . WHIT pag. 484. It is as easie to know the heresies of Christians , being more in the Christian Church then euer were in the Church of Ierusalem , and of these also haue many bookes been written . Ierusalem , what then ? was the change all at once ? shew vs then how those nouelties entred into the Church , what time , what way , who was Bishop , and by what proceedings it increased . You Romanis● condemne the Greeke Church , and yet it is nothing so corrupt as yours . c c DVR . You require an easie thing ; for the authors of the heresies of the Greeke Church , we can easily number out of their stories , Samosatenus , Eutyches , Sergius , Arrius , Nestorius , Macedonius , and such like . WHIT. pag. 486. It is a wonder that you will obiect these heresies vnto the Greeke Church : when you cannot bee ignorant but that moe and more horrible heresies sprung vp in the Romish Church , and almost in the middest of Rome : For Valentinus , Marcion , Cerdon , Florentius , Blasius , Tatianus , Nouatus , Pelagius , Julianus , Celestinus , and other such did broach most pestiferous heresies in Rome . If you answere the Latin Church condemned these ; I can answere so for the Greeke Church . And if you thinke you haue obiected well in numbring certeine heresies of the Greeke Church , you may thinke I haue answered aswell in reckoning the heresies of the Latin Church . Declare now vnto me those circumstances of time in the declining of this Church , which you demaund for your owne . Poynt out the time , the Bishop , and the growth of their Apostasie . As the alteration of these Churches was then easie to bee discerned when it first beganne , though now it be very hard to finde out those circumstances : so we see plainely a great change in the Church of Rome , yet can we not certainely pronounce the seuerall times of their seuerall declining . Many are manifest , which were too long to rehearse , and those are distinguished according to their times and seasons . The case was with the Church of Rome , as we see it is in a great building : for as a house which is strongly built at the first , continueth so of it selfe a long time after sound and whole ; but if for a time it be left and neglected , it beginneth in some place to decay , and to bee full of chinkes , which in time waxe big by degrees , till they threaten ruine to the posts and roofes themselues , and at length by this meanes , the whole building is ruinated and falleth downe : so the Romane Church in processe of time declined from her auncient estate , and by the infection of error and superstition daily preuailing , at length shee lost the very spirit and life of the Church . Eusebius reporteth , that one Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus , had written of the Church , that she was , whilest the Apostles liued , a chaste and vndefiled Virgin . For then they that would haue altered the holy paterne of sound doctrine , did it faintly and fearefully , not daring to creepe out of their holes . d d DVR . O horrible fact ! ó intolerable wickednes ! with what face can you thus speak , if you remember how Christ promised his spouse perpetuall preseruation ? Hose. 2.20 . Isa , 59.21 . Psal. 131.17 . and such like WHIT pag. 4●8 . If your arguments were as great as your outeries , who could deale with you ? That the Church may be corrupted , see these places Matth. 13.25 . 1. Cor. 5.6 . 2. Cor. 11.3 . Isay . 1.21 . Gal. 1.6 . and 2.1 . Further what haue I else spoken that Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. & 10. haue not before time written ? And when I writ these things , I remembred well those promises and many other of that kind . But I know that they belong to the Church of the elect , and hinder not , but that particular Churches may bee corrupted by error and false doctrine . DVR . Eusebius doth not anouch these from Polycrates , but from Hegesippus , who called the Church a Virgin , because heretikes as yet had not openly opposed her , and corrupted the seates of the Apostles : and did not say that shee was corrupted after them . WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great which of them spake the words , for whosoeuer shall wergh the words , shall see that the sense of them is as I haue said . And if the Church was euer to remaine a chast and pure Virgin , how foolish should that Hegesippus be in affirming that hitherto she remained a Virgin , or what may his meaning bee else then that the Apostles being dead , she began to be corrupted , which the words following proue , when that age was ouerpassed ; then she began to be corrupted with impious error ? Yea and when you say that as yet heretikes had not assaulted her , nor inuaded the tents of the Apostles , either you say nothing , or you graunt that after the Apostles time , they did assault her , and preuaile against her . But after that the Apostles departed vnto the heauenly mansions , and none of that age left , that had been hearers of Christ himselfe , neither any of the Apostles liuing , then began abhominable error to gather strength , and openly in the Churches to aduaunce it selfe . What more pregnant testimonie of antiquitie and historie can you desire ? Whilest the Apostles liued the Church was a Virgin , assoone as they were dead , she became corrupted , and the mischiefe no doubt in time increased and spread it selfe abroade . But I woonder that this e e DVR . Nay rather if hee were liuing hee would wonder at your fo●lie , who are either so ignorant or so forgetfull , that you obserue not , how Polycrates sent letters to Pope Victor touching the new controuersie about the cele bration of the Passeouer . WHIT. pag. 492. It seemeth in policie you passe ouer this place in silence , without answere ; and tel vs a tale of another different thing , which affordeth vs a strong argument against the tyranny of the Pope : for if the most learned and holy Bishops of the Greeke Churches , dissented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Easter , and would not follow the custome of the Pope and Romish Church , though the Pope sought it by all meanes , who can doubt , but that this supreame power of the Pope ouer all Churches vnder Christ as his Vicar , was vnknowne and vnheard of among them ? Polycrates , was either so ignorant or forgetfull that hee considered not this , that the Pope of Rome was left vnto the Church , in the Apostles roomes , to defend this Virgin , and preserue her chastitie . Why calleth hee the Church a Virgin ? Because the Apostles were liuing , by whom her audacious aduersaries were alwaies discouraged and discomforted . But either in this respect the Church now wanteth a Pope , or else shee needes him not at all . But Polycrates , although there were none left to preserue the puritie of this Virgin , bewaileth her want as you see , which surely had been vnaduifedly done , if his opinion had been , that this charge belonged to the Bishop of Rome . The Church then from the Apostles time began to decline , and inclined to the apostasie , which the Apostle did foretell should be , and we see now fulfilled . Then those Wolues of whom the Apostle did forewarne , Act. ●0 . 19 . came into the Church and ceased not to destroy the flocke . Then those Antichrists , whereof Iohn affirmeth some were in his time , 1. Ioh. ● . 18 . began to vndertake the worke , which after was perfected and accomplished : I might heere shew you many euident tokens of your Churches Apostasie , out of these your owne Chronicles : they are no secrets , but such as any man that will reade and obserue , may easilie discerne .

And since you call vs vnto Histories , f f DVR . Two things here are , of which you would perswade the Reader , one that the Fathers of the Councell allowed not that which the Pope affected by his Legates : another that the Legates did malitiously produce a forged Canon . What would you doe if you could find any thing of waight in any storie against vs ? WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader , and what can any storie afford vs more solide and perspicuous , for whether you respect the a●●bition and fraud not vsed in former times by the Bishops of Rome , or the authority of the Councell , or that famous sentence giuen against the Bishops of Rome , there is no man so ignorant and vnexperienced , but he will confesse that they enacted and decreed a great matter , and of no smale importance . I will put you in mind of one thing related in an auncient storie , consider it well whether it touch your Pope , or no , and then answere fully concerning the whole matter . A Councell was assembled in Africke , of 217. Concil. Carthag. 6. cap. 3.1.7.9 . Bishops ; whereof Augustine himselfe was one , the glorie and starre of Africke : I will set downe the story briefly . Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates , which should perswade the Fathers of Africke , that appeales might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops . The Legates make relation hereof vnto the Fathers , and withall produce a Canon of the Councell of Nice , wherein the priuiledge was recorded : the Fathers wonder at this new decree , and answere the Legates that they neuer saw any such Canon in any copie Greeke or Latin , and that , as they thought , the true and perfect copie of that Councell remained with them , which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage , which was himselfe present at that Councell , had brought into Africke ; notwithstanding they determine to send to Constantinople , Alexandria , and Antioch , such as might receiue the true and naturall copies , from the Bishops of those cities . The Popes Legates would faine haue stayed them from sending , but could not . Cyrill Bishop of Alexandria , and Atticus of Constantinople deliuer vnto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Africk , wherin they do auouch that those copies were most true and sincere . Concil. Af●●c . Can. 105. Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Councell of Nice no such thing can be found : so they writ to Celestine then Pope , and command him to surcease from making any such claime euer after and not to send abroad his Collectors , lest thereby they may seeme to bring the presumptuous smokie pride of the world into the Church of Christ . The Pope for the time yeelded not voluntarily , but perforce : for an hundred yeeres after Boniface the second in an Epistle vnto Eulalius inueigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage , which was now President of the African Councell , and affirmeth that hee and his fellowes , whereof Augustine was the chiefe , were all moued by the deuill to withstand the Church of Rome ; thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatikes , Aurelius of Carthage , & other the African Bishops , yea and Augustine himselfe among the rest , because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter : as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage , he giueth him great thankes because he made friendship with the Church of Rome , that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome ouer the Church of Africke . These things I haue related out of their truest records , and of this kind I could rehearse many more , so little cause haue you to promise your selfe much helpe out of Historie .

Hence may bee perceiued what the purpose and endeuour of the Bishops of Rome haue bin these many yeares , viz. to make themselues Lords of all Churches , which also at length they obtained . But because you aske the question and desire answere , when Rome lost her faith so much commended , and what that , which once was ; ceased to be ? I may truly affirme that though in many things she had made shipwracke of faith before , yet then did it begin to be the seate of Antichrist , when Phocas the murderer granted vnto Boniface the third , that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches , and the Bishop of Rome should be called Vniuersall Bishop . I will not too curiously search into the moments of times , a mischiefe creepeth priuily , for a time vnespied of men . But the common opinion which men conceiued of those times was , that Gregory the great was the last good , and the first ill Bishop of Rome . He was no better then he should be , and all that succeeded him were starke nought , euery one striuing to goe beyond his predecessor in all lewdnes : so that , now a sincke of all wickednes hath violently burst into the Church , and hath possessed all the parts therof . You force me , Campian , to open the sores of your Church , which I had rather not touch , but you are so vnreasonable , that you neither spare vs nor your selues . Barnard , who was the only religious man , your Church had for many yeares , how often , and how grieuously , doth he bewaile , the most desperat estace of your Church ? g g DVR . Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church , but of the manners of the wicked . and in the Church the euill men were euer mixed among the good . WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder what was in your mind , when you confesse that the manners of your predecessors were such , as he describeth both heere , and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor , walke decked with much pretious apparell . If I durst speaze it ; these are rather pa●●ors for diuels then for Christs sheepe , Your Court vsually receiueth good men , but maketh sew good . There the wicked are not made better , but the good farre worse . A number of such places I could alledge out of him , neither bewail●th l●ethe mixture of the bad , as you say , but the perishing of the good , and the ru●ne of the Church . A shamefull contagion sprea●●●h ouer the body of the whole Church : Bernard . in Cant. Ser. 33 De conuer . Pauli . the seruants of Christ serue Antichrist . From the sole of the foote to the crowne of the head nothing is sound . With these and the like speeches vsed Bernard to bewaile and complaine of the intolerable wickednes of your Church , which he would neuer haue done without sufficient reason , mouing thereunto . Aeneas Syluius ad Casparem Schlik . Aeneas Syluius , afterwards Pope , writeth that charity was waxed cold , and faith vtterly gone , and what manner of Church shall we iudge this to haue been , when shee had lost both faith and charity ? But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice vnto the Church , and that after hee changing his opinion , when of Aeneas he was made Pius , for that was euer his vsuall speech . Cast away Aeneas & take Pius . What shal I further recite Petrarch , Mantuan , and other Poets both learned and famous , which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie ? all things were then so out of order , that all sinnes might without controul●●ent both be practised and openly blamed . I need not to seeke farre , remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine , not many yeares agoe , at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church : whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you , though of it selfe it bee little worth . Thus he saith , Cornel. Bicontin . in concil . Crident . Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition , from faith to infidelity , from Christ to Antichrist , from God to Epicurisme . Behold the Marks of your Church , su●●●stition , infidelity , Antichrist , Epicure , for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter . But Campian , the more you defend the integrity of your Church , the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it .

Our aduersaries , say you , doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church . This we confesle , and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthie praise , which you remember ; and yet those praises by you mentioned , doe not belong to that Church alone , but were giuen also to other Churches . Rom. 1. ● . For what if the faith of the Romanes were published in the whole world ? this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church . Hath not the Apostle written asmuch of the Church of Thessalonica , 1. Thess. 1.8 . Your faith to wards God is spread in all places ? What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceasing ? Rom. 1.9 . so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians . 1. Thess. 1.3 . What though he doubted not but hee should come vnto the Romanes in abundance of the blessing of Christ ? Rom. 15.29 . thinke you his comming into other Churches was lesse fruitfull ? Rom. 16.19 . What if all Churches saluted the Romanes , and their obedience was euery where spoken of ? know you not that all the Saints vsed to salute one another ? or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this ? But we grant you , that at this time it was holy : what would you more ? Act. 28. Then also when Paul preached the Gospell there in his fauourable restraint . This also wee grant : what more ? 1. Pet. 5.13 . And then also when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there , calling it Babylon . We deny not this . And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon , for I doubt not , but it is the same of which h h DVR . Saint Iohn speaketh of Rome when it yet abhorred the saith of Christ , a●d persecuted Christians . WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. J●●n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist , for when ●e w●●teth Apoc. 18. ● . who seeth not that this cannot be vnderstood of auncient Rome , but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels , and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule spirits . Iohn writes so much in the Reuelation , the mother of whoredomes , and abominations of the earth ; yet I cannot be so easily perswaded that i i DVR . Yet Oecumenius , Hierome , Eusebius . Tertullian , to say nothing of others , do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome , is as if you should doubt , whether euer Romulus , Iulius Caeser , or Pompeie was there . For if Cyprian , Eusebius , Do●o●heus , Epiphanius , Optatus , Hicrom , and many others may not be beleeued , what shall euer be certeine in any History ? WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies proue nothing that I haue either doubted of or denied ; for I desire authority of Scriptures , not the opinions of men ; I desire euery man who desireth saluation to weigh this one thing well . That whereas the whole gouernment & Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this soundation , that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome , yet they haue no word in the Scriptures to shew that he euer was so : and so the whole Papacie is hanged vpon the coniectures of men , as vpon a rotten threed ; for what if many Histories say he was there , if the Scripture say no such thing , what assurance can be of it for matter of faith , the mind must needs bee suspicious and doubtfull ; it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there . But who knoweth not that , that which one deliuereth at the first , may increase by fame , and be by many reserued to posterity . At the first an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Symon Magus and saith it was at Rome , and him haue many followed since : and hence from the common rumors and suspi●ions of men sprung vp the Popes chair● . And who shall then giue assurance of faith in this thing , when there is no place of Scripture for it , nay when many places are against it . These specially Galat. 2.7.9 . Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome & for so many yeares , it was against both his order of life and his faith . Act. 28.22.23 . Now they could not be so ignorant , if that S. Peter for so many yeares before had gouerned that Church : S. Paul abode in Rome two yeares and thence writ many Ep●stles , and in them spake of many of the brethren , but neuer once named S. Peter ; supole you hee would bee two yeares from his Church ? Galat. 2.1.2 . But he ought rather to haue been at Rome , as a good Bishop ought to be with his flocke , vnlesse you can proue he might substitute a Vicar . Besides the Histories themselues are in such ●ariety of opinions , that you can hardly tell whom to follow : some say he came ●o Rome in the first yeare of Claud●us the Emperour , some in the second , some in the fou●●● , and some in the tenth yeare : and it may be that none of these is true , sure it is all cannot be true . Peter meanes Rome in this place ; here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus , & could yet neuer pro●ue that Peter was at Rome . But you take this for granted , and as alreadie prooued ; which if any man once deny , then like the Mathematicians , you haue done , and can goe no further . But why may I not reasonably think , that Peter meaneth that Babylon , which once was the chiefe Citie of the Assi●ians , in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes , Galat. 2.9 . vnto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly . If I should set downe that which I could alleage in this cause , I feare I should trie your patience too much . In the meane time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon , and hereafter , at your leisure , you may declare vpon what occasion the name of it was altered . You may not now bee angrie with vs , if following Peters example , from hencefoorth wee also call Rome Babylon .

Now I hope at length you will rest and be satisfied . Nay , but you proceed still vnto the ages that succeeded : Then when Clemens gouerned the Church : then also , when the Heathen Emperours massacred the Bishops of Rome : Euen then I confesse , Rome was an excellent Church of Christ . Will this content you ? Nay further you say ; Then also when Damasus , Siricius , Anastasius , Innocentius executed the Apostolike function . This is not to discend by degrees , but to leape ; for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these . But how will you perswade vs to yeeld you thus much ; Because Caluin ( as you say ) frankly confesseth , I●st . lib. 4. cap. 2. s●ct . 3 & Epist. ad Sad●l . that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell : Doe not you , Campian , catch hold of that which no man will giue you , nor be too confident of others liberalitie ? Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted : therefore you must redeliuer it . Caluin in that place answereth to your ouerworne argument of succession , and sheweth that the purpose of the Fathers , when they alleaged the succession of Bishops , was not to proue those to be true Churches , where Bishops succeeded one another : but this first they assumed as most certaine , that from the beginning of the Church vnto the ages , whereof they speake , there was no alteration in religion ; and thus they opposed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserued in the Church . Caluin then saith not that they had k k DVR . Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Christ , which swarueth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine ▪ what can be sp●ken more absurdly . WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect absurditie to others are most absurde your selfe , for w●● not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors , the Church of God . The Corinthians and Galathians , when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Gospell , yet S. Paul saluted them 〈◊〉 Churches , 1 Cor. 1.2 . Gal. 1.2 . which he would not haue done , if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors . altered nothing in any point of faith , but that the Fathers vsed this argument of succession onely in those cases , wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing . Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ ; but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell , that Caluin neuer confessed , and wee constantly denie . To say nothing of the rest . Thus l l DVR . This error is common to you and many of your fello●es : for Syricius was not the first , we ha●e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage , which numbreth this among the Apostolike tr●ditions , Carthag . 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemen● it in his Epistle to S. Iames the Lords brother . Amongest the Grecians the custome of the Priests wa● not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Priest-bood , Epiphan. h●●rel . 59. And Hierome against Vi●ilantius vigeth this auncient custome of the Church . WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law . The which many Priests before him of their owne acccrd embraced single life , yet none was compelled by law against his will : and as for the Councell of Carthage , it was held in the time of this Syricius . And so not before him , for your Cleme●s you know hee is of no worth , but a meere counterfeite . That you report of the Grecians is incredible , when as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this law , neither would the Grecians euer endure this snare : Hierome indeed produceth an old custome , but no Apostolike , nor yet perpetuall custome . Syricius swarued from the doctrine of the Gospell , when he intangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of inforced continencie : and this doubtlesse was no small digression , but a plaine departing from the m m DVR . What Catholike euer said that marriage was euill ? S. Paul teacheth vs to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnostikes , and other heretikes of that sort . WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my answere is easie : your Syricius and Innocent when they feared Ministers from marriage , vsed those reasons which either condemned marriages simplie , or els they conclude nothing . For when they thus reason , Priests may not marrie , because they must be the temple and the vessell of the Lord , and the Chappell of the holy Ghost , therefore they ought not to giue themselues to chambering and vncleannes , because they ought to be holy : because they shall bee polluted with carnall concupiscence , and to the vncleane all things are vncleane : because they who are in the flesh cannot please God . What I pray you is this else but to affirme that marriages are euill , impure , and wicked ? Make these then no Catholikes , or else your question is answered . To tye S. Paul to those auncient heretikes only , is absurde , as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times : yea and he hath taxed not those only who condemne marriage , but who forbid them , which cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth . Apostolike doctrine . 1. Tim. 4.3 . Heb. 13.4 . Now at length you make a stay , and pursue the histories of the Church no further : only you demaund , when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin ; vnto which question we haue sufficiently answered . If you make doubt whether it now bee the same it was , you may also if you list doubt whether the sunne shine at noone . For this is as cleere and without question , as that the present citie of Rome , is become vnlike the auncient flourishing Romans common wealth . And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius , and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh wittily , who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome . So if you would now in the present n n DVR . What impudencie is this ? there was neuer heresie that assaulted this Church , of which it caried not the victorie . As ouer the Donatists , Iouinian , Pelagius the Britaine and others . WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches , and stand to that I haue saide . The Church of Rome which once flourished is now so oppressed with Antichrist , that besides the outward face , image , countenance of a Church , & a vaine pompe , there is nothing else left in it . There is no word but it is corrupted with pestiferous leaued , no Sacrament but polluted with sacriledge and corruption , no discipline but Antichristian : I passe not for your Popes chaire ; your Colledge of Cardinals , the glorie of your Bishops , your Priests , Monkes , Temples , riches , nothing moue me ; I search for a liuing Church , not bare walles , for a man , not a picture , for a body , not a shadow : as for your criumphes you boast of , they are no more proper to the true Church , then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus , Anniball , Perses , Antiochus , are to be esteemed the triumphes of Rome now being . Finally as for Pelagius , he triumphed ouer the whole Popish kingdome . For did he not teach that grace was inbred in nature ? and your Popish crew defendeth the same ; who seeth not then Pelagius sitting in your triumphant chariot ? Romish Church , seek for the auncient Church of Rome , you shall neuer find it , for shee hath now lost , not the life only , but the very colour and appearance of the true Church .

Seeing therefore all other things faile you , and also Histories themselues , on which you seemed much to relie , helpe you nothing , what remaineth but one of these two ? either must you yeeld before the battaile , or die in the battaile . I wish you would once at length take knowledge of that which Nazianzen writeth . We haue learned it to bee commendable , aswell to yeeld vnto reason , as with reason to ouercome .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The eighth Reason , which is the Paradoxes of our aduersaries .

WHen that ( most excellent men ) I reuolue in my mind amongst many heresies wherewith I haue to doe , certaine monstrous opinions of such as are fantasticallie giuen ; I could not but condemne my self of slouthfulnes and cowardlines , if making triall thereof , I should bee afraid of any mans actiuitie and strength : let him be as eloquent as yee would wish , let him be as much exercised as you would desire , yea let him be one that hath throughly studied all sorts of books , yet must he needs be to seeke , both for matter and words also when he shall vndertake to maintaine those his vnpossible propositions as follow : for ( if he perhaps will giue his consent ) we will dispute of God , of Christ , of Man , of sinne , of Iustice , of Sacraments , and of Manners , I will trie whether they dare maintaine their opinions , & such sayings , as they , lingring after their owne lure , haue bruted abroad by their writings . God graunt they will acknowledge these their owne a a De Deo . Cal. Inst. lib. 1. cap. 18. lib 2. cap. 4. lib. 3. cap. 23. & 24. Pet. Mart. in 1. Sam. 2. Methanct . in cap. Rom. 8. Wittem . 1524. Sic docet Luther . in asser . 36. & in resol . asser . 36. & in lib. de ser. arbit . Praesat . in anno Phil. In Apol. Eccl. Ang. Vide Ench. pre . an . 1543 axiomes : * * This is most false , not any one of our men haue affirmed that God is the author of sinne . God is the author and cause of sinne , willing , prompting , making , commaunding , and working it , and their gouerning the wicked counsels of naughty men . * * This is false , we do not so compare togither . The adultery of Dauid , and the treason of the Traitor Iudas , was as properly the worke of God , as the calling of S. Paul was . This monstrous doctrine , whereof Philip , Melancthon was once ashamed , yet Martin Luther from whose brest Philip suckt the same , as highly extolleth , as though it had been some heauenly oracle , and therefore matcheth his said scholler in a manner with the Apostle S. Paul . I will demaund also what mind Luther was of whom the English Caluinists affirme to haue been a man sent from God to lighten the Word , when hee razed out of the Letany vsed in the Church this verse , O blessed Trinitie , and one God haue mercy vpon vs : then in order I will proceed to the person of o o De Christ . Inst. lib. 1. c. 13. nu. 23. & 24. Beza in Hess . Beza contra Schmidel . lib. de vnit . Hypost . dua . in Christ . nat. Christ , & demaund of them , what these Paradoxes meane , whereas the Catholike Church holdeth that Christ is the Son of God , and God of God . * * Christ is Son of the Father , but God of himselfe . Caluin saith that Christ is God of himselfe , and Beza affirmeth that he was not begotten of the substance of the Father : also be it agreed ( saith he ) that there are in Christ two vnions consisting in one substance , the one of the soule with the flesh , and the other of the Diuinity with the humanity . That place of S. c c Caluin . in Ioh. 10. v. 30 Iohn , I and the Father are one , doth not proue that Christ is God of one substance with God the Father : yea and my soule ( * * This is false , reade the answere . saith d d Luther cont. Laton . Luther ) cannot brooke this word ( Homouotin . ) Proceed yee forward , e e Bucer . in Lu. 2. Calu. in ●ar . Eu. Christ from his infancie was not full of grace , but daily encreased in gifts of the mind , as other men vsually doe , and waxed wiser through experience euery daie more then other , so that in his childhood he was subiect to f f Luth. Loss . Hem. Mela. in Euang. de. 1. post . Epist. Marl. in Matt. 26. Cal. in Har. Euan Brentius in Luc. par. 2. Hom. 65. & in Catech. an. 1551. & in Ioh. Hom. 54. ignorance , which is all one as if they should say that Christ was corrupted , with the spot and staine of * * This is false , for all ignorance riseth not from originall corruption . originall sinne . But listen and you shall know more pernitious doctrine then this . Christ when he praied in the garden , and plentifully sweat both water and blood , trembled through feare , and sensiblie feeling of eternall damnation , vttered certaine speeches without reason , and without consent of the inward spirit , yea speeches without consideration through the vehemencie of his griefe : the which speeches as vnaduisedly spoken , he quickly corrected . Is there any more such stuff ? giue diligent eare : Christ , when he cried out with a loud voice , hanging on the Crosse , My God , my God , why hast thou forsaken me , was tormented with the flames of hell fire , he let ouer-slip * * This is false , neither Birutius nor any of our men euer said so . him g g Caluin . in Har. Euang. in eand . sent. Loss . in Matth. 26. desperate speeches , being no otherwise affectioned , then if he should haue died an eternall death ; if they haue any worse stuffe then this , let them emptie their gorge . Christ they saie , descended into hell , that is , Christ after he was dead , tasted of the paines of hell , nowhit h h Schmidel . conci . de Pass & c●●ua Dom. Aepinus Com. in Psal. 16. lesse then the damned soules doe , sauing that he was to be restored againe ; for as much as by his corporall death , he could haue profited vs nothing , it was therefore requisit that his i i Caluin . Instit lib. 2. cap. 16. Bren. in Catechis . 1551. soule also should striue with eternall death , and in this manner to tolerate the paine , and paye the ransome of our sins . And lest peraduenture any man should suspect , that this escaped Caluin by ouersight , the said k k Instit. lib. 2 cap. 16. nu. 12. Caluin calleth you all forlorne knaues , if any of you , haue debated vpon this * * They who deny this doctrine to be full of comfort may worthily be accounted desperate men . comfortable doctrine , oh cursed times ! oh cursed daies ! what miserable doctrine haue you bred vp ? Hath that precious and princely blood , which gushed out of the torne pierced side of that most innocent Lambe Christ Iesus ( euery little drop of which blood , for the worthines of the sacrifice , was sufficient to haue redeemed a thousand worlds ) reliened mankind nothing at all , 1. Tim. 2. Apoc. 2.6 . except the man Christ Iesus the mediator betweene God and man had suffred also the * * Which of vs spake after that manner ? second death , the death of the soule , the want of grace , which is due only for sinne , and detestable blasphemie ? In comparison of this madnes . Bucer . in Matt. 26. Bucer shall seeme modest , though absolutely he is indeed very impudent in that he taketh this word Infernus in the Creed only to signifie Sepulchrum , that is , a graue , by a very ouer thou art figure Epexegesis , ( which is a latter recitall , or rather by a foolish and fond figure , which is commonly called Tautologia , ) that is an idle and superfluous telling of one●tale often . Of the English sectaries , some are accustomed to hang vpon Caluin , whom they make their God , and some to take part with Bucer their great master . Some also mutter in their slieues against this article , dewising with themselues how without causing of an vproare , it may be quite cut out of the Creed , that it molest them no more . That , that also was * * This is most false , this was neuer assayed in our Church . attempted in a certaine assemblie at London , I remember one Richard Chenie , a miserable old man , that was amongst them told mee , who though hee was euilly intreated of theeues abroad , yet did hee not repaire home into his fathers house . And thus farre , as concerning Christ his owne person : now what say they of man ? marry that the l l De Homine Illyri . in par. lib. de ●●t . Pec. col . Inst. lib. 2. ca. 3 Sacer. de cons. ve . Eccl. Aepin . de ●●b . & Pecc . Sanct. Rem . contra Cens . Col. De peccato . Image * * This is false , we deny this directly . of God is cleane blotted out of a man , so that there is not so much as one spark of goodnes remaining in him . His whole nature as touching all the whole faculties of the soule , is so quite altered , that no man not euen he that is lately christened , nor any holy vertuous man , is any thing else inwardly , but meere corruption and contagion ; but whereto tendeth this ? forsooth to no other purpose , but that they who will snatch at heauen , by their onlie faith , leading their liues in loosest sort , may accuse nature , may despaire to attaine to vertue , and cast off the burden of the holy Commandements from their backes . To this hath m m Jllyri . in vari . lib. de peccat . orig. vide Heshis . in Epist. ad Illyr . An peccatum sit substantia . Cal. in Antid. Conc. Trid. idem docuerat Wiclef apud Wald . lib. 2. de Sacra . c. 154. De gratia . Illyricus the standard bearer to the Magdeburgeans annexed , that his diuellish decree of originall sinne , which he holdeth to bee the most inward substance of mens soules , because ( saith he ) after the fall of Adam , the very Diuel himselfe doth shape them anew , & transforme them into his owne substance . This is also an vsuall saying amongst these abiects , that * * This is most false , our men euer abhorred this doctrine . all sinnes are equall ; but with this condition , ( lest peraduenture the Stoickes do quicken againe ▪ ) that they be weighed in the ballance of Gods iust iudgement : as though God , which is as a most gentle iudge , would rather aggrauate , then ease our burden ; and notwithstanding that he is most righteous , he would yet exaggerate the offence , & make it more then it is in very deed . By this ballance a silly poore Tauernour that killeth a cock when there is no need , offendeth God no lee , if he giue iudgment in his furie , then did that vile butcherly fellow being great with child of Beza his doctrine , that secretly with arpistolet most treacherously murdred that great nobleman of France , the Duk of Guise , a Prince of rare vertue , which was the most horrible , & lamentable deed , that euer was doue in any time , within the compasse of the wide world . But peraduenture those men that are set so eagerly in handling of the nature of sinne , De Gratia . will shew themselues great Philosophers in disputing of Gods grace , which wil helpe to heale and cure this maladie . n n Luth. in resp. contra Louan . Bucer . in Ioh. 1 Wel . in nat. Christi . Brent . hom. 12. in Ioh. Cent. lib. 1. cap. 4. De Iustitia . Good offices it seemeth , that they appoint for this grace , the which they impudently crie out to be powred into our harts , or to haue sufficient ability , to withstand all sorts of sinnes : and place it altogeter out of our reach , in the only fauour of God : which fauour ( they say ) * * This is false , the grace of God begeteth iustification , and sanctification followeth iustification alwaies , and necessarily . doth neither amend the wicked , nor purifie the corrupted , nor lighten those that bee in darknes , nor inrich them that want good workes , but only doth hide that old heape of sinnes still remaining and sticking within vs , by Gods wincking thereat , to the intent that it be not imputed as deformed and odious in his sight : with which their vaine imaginations they are so well pleased , that euen * * This is false , we confesse Christ is euery way full of grace . Christ himselfe , for no other cause in their iudgements may be said to be full of grace and truth : but because that God the Father did wonderfully fauour him . What manner of thing then is Iustice ? a certaine respectiue relation : not composed of the three Theologicall vertues , Faith , Hope , and Charitie , which do close the soule with their beautie , but only a cloaking of sinne , the which whosoeuer can apprehend by his bare faith , that man is as sure of his saluation , as if hee were already in present possession of the endlesse ioyes of heauen : but go to , let him dreame of this , yet how can hee assure himself of future perseuerance vntill his death ? which o o Matth. 12 Luc. 11. gift of perseuerance whosoeuer wanteth ; he commeth to most miserable end , though for a season hee embraced iustice both sincerely and zealously . Nay verily , except this thy faith ( saith p p Inst. lib. 3. c. 2. nu. 40. Caluin ) doth foreshew thee thy perseuerance so infalliblie , that thou canst not be deceiued therin , thou oughtest to account it as a weake and feeble faith . By this point I know him to be Luthers owne scholler : for a q q Lib. de capt . ●ab . Christian man ( saith he ) though he would , cannot * * Luther speaketh of the grace of Baptisme which is not lost by sin . damne himselfe , but only by incredulitie . I will make hast to the sacraments : De Sacramentis . they haue lest ( O blessed Christ ) no Sacrament , I say none , not two , not one ; for their bread r r Caluin . Instit. lib. 4. cap. 15. Cent. 1. lib. 1 cap. 16. Luth. lib. de cap. Babyl . Cent 2. & 5. cap. 4. Luth. aduer. Gochl . item Epist. ad Melanct. 10.2 . & in Epist. ad Wald . Anabaptistas . is starke poyson . Their Baptisme , though it be true Baptisme , by their iudgement is nothing at all : It is not water of saluation , it is not a conduite of grace , and doth not make vs partakers of Christs merits , it is but * * This is false , we say not that they are only signes . onely a bare signe of saluation . Therefore as concerning the nature of the thing , they esteeme Christs Baptisme no more then the outward ceremonie of Saint Iohn . If thou haue it , it is well , * * This is false , he speaketh not so of Baptisme . if thou want it , it is no hurt at all : onely beleeue , and thou art sure to be saued before thou be baptized . What then shall wee say of sillie yong Infants , who except they be holpen by the vertue of this Sacrament , can purchase nothing by their owne faith ? Rather ( say the Magdeburgeans ) then wee will attribute any vertue to the Sacraments of Baptisme , let vs grant that there is faith in such infants sufficient whereby they may be saued , certaine secret motions of which faith they feele in themselues ; whereas without doubt , as yet they cannot discerue by any sense whether they liue or no. A hard case surely for poore Infants : but if this seeme so hard , marke what medicines Luther will minister for it . * * This Luther speaketh vpon their supposition , who affirme that children want all faith . Better it were , saith he , to omit Baptisme altogether , for except the infant beleeue himselfe , the washing of him in water is to no purpose at all . This tale they tell that stand wauering , what they may absolutely affirme in this point . Why then let Baltazar Pacimontanus intrude himselfe to strike the stroke betweene them , Anabaptista . as an indifferent man , who being the first founder of the Annabaptists , when he could not conceiue in his minde that there was any motion of faith in yong children , allowed of Luthers simple shift , and abandoning the Baptisme of Infants out of all Churches decreed that none should bee christened vntill hee come to yeares of vnderstanding . As for the rest of the Sacramentes , though that * * the Pope of Rome . beast with-manie heads , spoken of in the Apocalyps , doe belch out many horrible blasphemies against them . Neuerthelesse because they are common at this present and haue hardned our eares with the sound thereof , I will here let them passe . De moribus . There remaine certeine pestiferous fragments of heretical doctrine , concerning life and manners , which s s Serm. de Matri . lib. de ●o . con. & asse . art. 16. Lib de vo. mona . Cha● . lib. in censor . suum Luth. Serm. de Pis. Pee . asser . art. 32 Lab. de Ser. arb. & Ser. de Moyse . lib. de cap. Babyl . Luther spued out vpon papers , for to infect those that reade his bookes , with such poysoned stuffe , as issued out of the stincking sincke of his filthie brest ; listen patiently , and blush for sham , and pardon me for reciting them . * * A notable slaunder , as all the rest which follow be : reade the answere . If my wife will not come , or cannot , then let my maid come to my bed . For the vse of a woman is as necessarie for euerie man , as either meate or drinke or sleepe is : Matrimonie is better then virginitie , Christ disswaded and S. Paul disswaded Christian people from virginitie . But peraduenture he will saye that those are Luthers peculiar heresies . I say they are not . They are also maintained by Charke , though faintly & fearefullie . Will you see any more of this stuffe ? why not ? By how much the more wicked thou art ( saith he ) by so much the more art thou nigher to grace . All good works are sinnes ; yea if God deale with vs iudicially , they are deadly sinnes , but if God deale with vs mercifully , they are but small veniall sinnes : No man thinketh of his owne freewill any euill thought . The tenne Commaundements of almightie God , belong nothing at all to Christians . God hath no regard of our workes . Those only are worthie partakers of the Lords Supper which bring with them sorrowfull , afflicted , tormented , confounded and vnconstant consciences . We ought to confesse our sinnes , but it forceth not to whom . For if any man obsolue thee , though it be but in * * This is false : for Luther speaketh not this of euery man , but of the Ministers . iest , if thou beleeue that thy sins are forgiuen thee , thou art absolued . It is not the office of Priests , but of Lay men to say their daily appointed seruice . Christian people are exempted from the lawes of men . But I thinke I haue raked deepe enough , and I feare me a little too deepe in stirring of this stincking puddle : wherefore now I will make an ende : and I would not haue you thinke that I haue delt vniustly in reprouing the Lutherans and Zuinglians iointly together : for the Zuinglians well remembring out of what schoole they came , wish with al their harts to be accompted as deare friends and louing brethren one with another : so that they thinke they haue great wrong done vnto them when there is any difference put between them , except it be in one only matter . I for my owne part , truly doe thinke that I am vnworthie to take vpon me so much as a meane roome amongst a great number of chosen Diuines , which in these daies haue proclaimed warres against all sorts of heresies . But this one thing I know assuredly ▪ that be I neuer so simple , I cannot by the grace of Christ he in any hazard , whiles that I shall contend against such fayned ▪ odious , foolish , and brutish deuices , so long as I haue both heauen and earth to helpe me .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the eighth Reason , which is the Paradoxes of our aduersaries .

HIerome said that hee would not haue any man to bee patient , if hee were suspected of heresie . And therefore , Campian , in so much the worser part do I take it , that these which you terme Paradoxes , being so false , so many , and so horrible , be now by you obiected against vs . And certainlie you that haue euer exceeded all other Papists in impudency and audaciousnes , haue in this place in very deed surpassed your selfe : for vnlesse you had quite and cleane put off both all religion of God , and reuerence toward men , and now of late made shipwracke of your owne conscience , and cast off vtterly all humanity , you would neuer haue admitted so much impietie into your selfe , as to vpbraide vs with these monstrous opinions . But I perceiue what you intend : for you hope that by slaundering boldly , as he being most like you , was wont to say , somewhat would alwaies cleane fast . For sith you lacke true imputations , whereby you might oppugne our Churches , it remained that either you should leaue off writing , which had been your honestest way , or at lest deuise some slaunders , which you would cast like vnomed darts vpon vs ; which thing is both in it selfe very filthy , and also a sure argument of your desperatenes . But now if I shall so wipe away these your Paradoxes and impossibilities , that al men may perceiue , they were ascribed to vs by you most falsly and most impudently ; I do craue not only of all men of our Vniuersities , but also of all Christians , that haue care of true religion , and of their owne saluation , that they will not suffer themselues to be misled by any lies and impostures of the aduersarie , from that holy doctrine which they haue learned . Wherefore I will set vpon these your monsters , Campian , that after I haue stopt your mouth , being ful of blasphemy , both the glory of God , which is in hand , and our innocency , which is oppugned , may be preserued from your violence . You say , the disputation shall be , if they please , of God , of Christ , of Man , of Sinne , of Righteousnes , of the Sacraments , of Manners . But we are readie to dispute with you not only about these , but also about other points , which are now in difference : of the Scripture , of the Church , of the Bishop of Rome , of Transubstantiation , of Freewill , of Indulgences , of Purgatorie , and of the rest of your doctrines . Neuerthelesse either many are deceiued , or else you do rather thinke of fighting then disputing . And I hope that you shall once haue freedome granted you for that disputation , which you so often desire . But now let vs attend how you endeuour to make vs know these positions of our men .

God ( say you ) is the willing , Of God . suggesting , efficient , commaunding , and working author and cause of sinne , and such a one as therein gouerneth the impious counsels of the wicked . It is an horrible thing and not to be vttred , Campian , that any one should make God the author of sinne : such an one were worthy to be smitten instantly by the Lord , with a thunderbolt into the deepest pit of hell . If a a DVR . But if I do not shew , that Caluin is the maintainer of this so horrible ablasphemy . I refuse no punishment for so great a slander : thus he writeth Instit. lib. 1. cap. 18. sect. 1. Absolom defiling his fathers bed with incest committed a detestable crime : yet God pronounceth that this was his worke . WHIT pag. 525. I wonder that there is any man found like to Campian , who will ●uow that to be said and defended by our men , which they haue euer most plainly condemned , as Melanct. on Rom. 1. &c. Pet. Mart on Iudg 9. and Caluin on Iam. 1. vers. 13. Beza against Castellio , of eternall predestination : for touching these words which you obiect to Caluin , what doth he affirme , but that which the Scripture hath deliuered , 2. Sam 12.11.12 ? vnlesse perhap● you will deny that to be Gods deed , which God himselfe witnesseth to be his . Neither will your sophisme follow hereupon , ergo God is the author of sin : for Caluin ascribeth not the sinne , but the worke to God . For if in that incest you can consider nothing but sinne , it must bee imputed to your ignorance . Caluin , or Martyr , or Philip , or Luther , or any of vs do affirme it , I do not denie but we are all guilty of horrible blasphemie and impiety . If I would largely prosecute this whole cause , which you doe but touch , I should make no end : therfore I will declare in few words , both what we teach , and wherein you lie . We professe , not only that God is good , but also goodnes it self ; yea good in himself & in his owne essence : in whom there is no euill ; from whom nothing but good can come : who is so good , that all his doings be very good , and that not so much as any of his thoughts can be euil . These things we speake , these things we teach , these things we beleeue with our harts , and confesse with our mouthes . Seeing therefore God is so perfectly good , that all his things be in a certaine excellent manner good , it hath been in times past inquired and most grauely disputed , whence that euil sprung , which had spread so far , & what might be the cause of this euill . This question Augustine often handled , because of the M●nichies , In 12. quest. 79. art. 1. & 2. and therein also Thomas of Aquine imployed himselfe much and diligently . Wee say that this euill was brought in by the b b DVR . But Caluin saith , that when the Diuel moueth men to sinne , hee is rather the instrument of God , than th● author o● sinne . Instit. lib. 2. cap. 4. Ser. 5. WHIT pag. 528. This allegation is full of slander . This is Caluins meaning , that albeit the Diuell be rather an instrument than the author of the action , yet hee is the supreme and chiefe of the sinne in the action . Diuell , who although hee were made good in the beginning by the Lord , yet by his freewill he made defection from the Lord and sinned ; ●nd did perswade , and was the author vnto man , to commit sin : from hence , whatsoeuer is sin either in the diuels , or in men , did wholy flow , and not any the least peece of it had being from God , whom we do maintaine by infinite testimonies of Scripture to be the author of no c c DVR . But what is more often in the mouth of Caluin & all Caluinists , ●hen this , that God doth not only permit but will sinne , that he doth moue and thrust vs forward to sinne , nay that be doth by the efficacie of his will impose a necessity of sinning vpon vs ? WHIT. pag. 529. God willeth sinne , but not simplie , and so farre forth as it is sinne , but as it is a chastisement , so 1. Pet. 4.19 . and God doth stirre vp and moue that sinne which lieth hidde in vs , yet he doth not frame or put sinne into vs : as the Physitian , is not the author of d●seases , when he purgeth out the most corrupt humours . And man not indued with the holy Ghost , falleth of his owne accord into a necessity of sinning , so as he sinneth , not by any fault of God , but by his owne fault . sinne ; and so do teach it in our schooles and Churches . Psal. 44. Zach. 8.17 . Gen. 18.25 . 1. Ioh. 1.5 . For he hateth sin , he loueth righteousnes : he which is the Iudge of the whole earth , it must needs be that he is euery way most iust : God is light , and there is no darknes in him . And these are the things which wee teach the people concerning God , that all may vnderstand hee is a most seuere reuenger of all sinnes . Now then , Campian , with what face dare you , seeing you know these to bee our doctrines , impute vnto vs such a slander not to be vttred , in so much as you affirme that we speake and thinke things flat contrary ? But you say Caluin and Martyr haue taught this this thing . Nay rather they are wholy bent vpon this , that they maintaine , that can by no meanes bee . It would be long to set down their words . I do beseech the Reader , to reade with an attentiue and peaceable mind , these same very places , which Campian hath abused vnto slander . And if they doe not both deny most plainly that God is the author and cause of sin ; and also if they do not proue that they do most truly deny this , which they deny , I will submit my selfe to any punishment . But yet there is doubtlesse somewhat , which these men say , and which Campian doth attribute to them : what that is , let vs consider .

There was a certaine inueterate opinion among men , that whatsoeuer sinne was committed by any , all that was done , God only permitting , and not willing it : now they did separate this permission vtterly from all will of God , so as they affirmed that God did no way will those things which he had permitted . But now seeing the Lord is to be held to d d DVR . Here you , while you , would defend that God is not the author of sinne , yet do nothing else but make him the author of sinne : for if he do not only permit , but also willeth that man sinne , tell me which way , if the will of God be the first and effecting cause of sinne , God is not the author of sinne . WHIT. pag ▪ 535. There is no need that I should expound to you that which you demaund for we do not make the will of God to be the first and ●ffecting cause of the sin , but of the action , which as it commeth from a wicked man , is vitious , so then not the will of God , but the naughtines of the instrument , is the cause that those things are done wic●edly , which the Lord doth rightly . permit those things which are done , not only that they might bee done , as if hee did no whit intermeddle himselfe in those things , nor had nothing at all to do therein , but also doth by his speciall prouidence so gouerne all things , as that nothing in the whole world happeneth against tha● , that he hath willed & decreed : certainly it cannot be denied , that God doth will after a sort those things , which the wicked doe , & that this wil of God is so effectual , that in the wicked actions of men , God doth execute his owne decree . For in sinne two things are to be considered , the action it selfe , and the corruption of the action : which thing your Aquine might teach you , which also he learned from Augustine . The action so farre forth as it is a thing and a worke , is good ; for God effecteth it : but so farre forth as this selfe same action is vitious , it proceedeth not from God , but from the corrupt nature of man . Although therefore God who worketh all things in all , and against whose will nothing can bee done ; doth bring to passe a certaine worke of his in the euill actions of men ; yet hee doth those things that are iust , nor ought he any way to be thought to be guiltie of the sinnes of the men themselues : therefore that which a wicked man doth , that , as it is a sinne , and as it hath the proper nature of sinne , the Lord neither willeth nor suggesteth , nor biddeth , nor effecteth ; nay he detesteth and reuengeth it , and iudgeth it worthy of euerlasting punishment . But that which is spoken of the thing , that you applie malitiously and vnskilfully , to the qualitie of the thing , that you may conclude , that God , because he is the author and cause of the action , is also the author and cause of whatsoeuer corruption is found in that action . I will not prosecute any long digression , nor ouerwhelme you with that multitude of Scr●ptures , which I could here vse : for I haue not taken vpon me to expound any poynt in the Schooles , but briefely to confute your filthie slaunder .

Now answere me , Campian , doe you thinke that that which any one doth , how wicked soeuer , is done whether God will or no ? If you hold that any thing is done against Gods wil , what prouidence or omnipotencie doe you leaue him ? For he which permits that to be done , which he would by no meanes haue to be done , it is certaine that he is not endued with so great power , as that he can forbid that which he would not haue done . Wherefore you must need● confesse that all things which are done , are done by the will of God ; not that God doth will , that is , e e DVR . You say that God willeth euill , but that he doth not allow it : as if God could will that which he doth not allow , or as if he could not allow his owne iudgement and decree . WHIT. pag. 538. It is no hard thing to proue this , that God doth will many things which he doth not allow : for if is do happen to Princes , that they doe not simplie allow of warre , as being dangerous to them and their subiects , but they would willingly shun it it they could , and yet they are compelled sometime to will it for the publike peace sake : and so to a Magistrate , who spareth the liues of his people , and neuer liketh of murther , yet now and then doth willinglie deliuer some one or other malefactor vnto the executioner ; shall we thinke that the like cannot happen vnto God , that hee willeth some thing in some sort and for some other respect , which hee doth not allow simplie and of it selfe ? Thus then God cannot but allow the action , which he hath destinated to a certaine end : but he doth not allow the corruption and sinne of the action , whereof not he but man is the author . allow the sinnes of men , but because by this means he doth exercise his iudgement and execute his decree , which he both willeth and alloweth . God can vse euill instruments well , and bring to passe by wicked men , those things which agree with his will and liking . Now whatsoeuer things God doth by euill instruments , those he neither doth nor alloweth , as they be euill things , but as they be his good and holy iudgements : so as although he both willeth those things which be done , & doth moue the wils of men , and doth exercise in euill instruments , though vnknowne to the instruments themselues , an effectuall power , and doth gouerne the wicked counsailes of impious men , that they can doe nothing which hee willeth not ; yet both men are wicked , albeit they doe those things which the Lord willeth ; and the Lord is holy , howsoeuer he willeth those things which the wicked doe . This may be made manifest by examples ; but I had rather you should heare Augustine than me . When the Father ( saith he ) deliuered the sonne , August . Epist. 48. ad Vincent . and the Lord his body , and Iudas the Lord by treacherie , why is God iust in this deliuerie , and man guiltie , but because in one thing which they did , the cause was not one for which they did it ? Againe , In that the wicked sinne , it is their owne : in that in sinning they doe this or that , it comes from the power of God , who diuides the darkenes as he seeth good . And in another place : It skilleth much ( saith he ) what will agreeth to man , and what to God , and to what end each one referreth his will , so as it may be allowed or disallowed . For God fulfilleth certaine of his wils , being surely good , by the euill wils of euill men : as by the ill willed Iewes , through the good will of the father , Christ was slain , which was so great a good , that the Apostle Peter , what time he would not haue had it done , is termed Satan by him who was willing to be slaine . And elsewhere : God ( saith he ) hardened Pharao by iust iudgement , De Grat. & lib. arbit. cap. 23. and Pharao hardened himselfe by his owne free will . And that you may plainely perceiue there is nothing taught by vs touching the will of God , but that which the Church of Christ long since hath taught , I will annexe some other sentences which the same Augustine hath written in another place : Great are ( saith he ) the works of the Lord distinguished into all his wils , Enchirid. ad Laurent . cap. 100. so as after a wonderfull and vnutterable manner that is not done without his will , which also is not done against his will : because it should not be done , if he did not suffer it , neither certainely doth he suffer it vnwilling , but willing . And againe : God worketh in the hearts of men to incline their wils whither so euer hee will , De Grat. & lib. arbit. ca. 21. whether to good according to his mercie , or vnto euill , according to their merits . And that certainely in his iudgement sometime open , sometime secret , but alwaies iust . I can vse infinite testimonies in this matter , but I thinke , not very needfull . I will raise vp out of your owne schoole Hugo de Sancto victore , who shall most clearely approue our opinion with his owne words . For thus he writeth : De Sacra . part. 2. c. 14. His will is neuer idle , so as that is not done , which he willeth : neither in a word can any thing bee done at any time which hee willeth not . And a little after : Cap. 15. The will of God is euer fulfilled , and wicked men are not therefore excused , because the will of God is performed in them and by them , for that they are not directed by their owne will , to fulfill the will of God , but by his secret prouidence .

Doe you perceiue at length ( Campian ) that no new paradoxe is defended in our Churches , which was not both receiued in times past in the Churches of Christ , and is also defended as the truth it selfe ? For that which you adde , As the calling of Paul , so also Dauids adulterie , and Iudas his treacherie , were the proper worke of God : from whence you drew these positions I know not . These works of God not one of our writers doe so compare together , as that wee should say that God wrought alike in Dauid and Iudas to the committing of hainous offences , as he did in Paul for his effectuall conuersion . Indeed the Lord wrought both in this and in them , but not after one and the like manner : he did inspire inwardly the heart of Paul by his spirit , and endued his minde with true faith , which he lacked before : but to Dauid and Iudas hee did cast in no new kinde of impietie or inclination of will , nor did hee stirre vp new motions vnto sinning ( God forbid that any Christian should so much as thinke it : ) but they running of their owne accord , and stirred vp by and of themselues , be did so hold and bend , that they vnwitting to themselues , and not imagining any such thing , did execute Gods decree . For by this adulterie of Dauid the Lord did both chastice Dauid , in that he did punish sinne with sinne , as hee is wont , and also hee made a way open for his purposes in time succeeding . Like hereunto is that of Absalom : he defiled Dauids Concubines : 2. Sam. 17.22 . the h●inousnes of which offence cannot bee vttered : yet this way the Lord had decreed to take punishment of Dauid . But the treacherie of Iudas , if you respect the couetousnes and perfidiousnes of the man , did so displease God , that neuer any thing did offend him more : and yet the Lord vsed both Iudas treacherie and the Priests crueltie for the finishing of that worke of our s●luation , and he would haue these wretched instruments to effect that diuine worke . Therefore the Apostles doe testifie that all these did nothing else but those things which the hand and counsaile of the Lord did decree to bee done . Act. 4.28 . And yet there is not here any monstrous thing , wherof either Philip Melanchton or any other ought to bee ashamed , vnlesse perhaps the holy doctrine of the Scripture seeme monstrous to you .

As for that that you demaund with what minde Luther did take away this verse from the Church prayers , O holy Trinitie , one God , haue mercie vpon vs , certeinly you are too suspitious . If Luther did think erroneously touching the Trinitie , conuince him : his bookes are in mens hands , and they are read by you , as it seemeth , very diligently . Alleage , if you can , any one word , iniurious either to the Trinitie or Vnitie . For if out of all his writings , which are innumerable , you can draw no probable inkling of this suspition , why doe you make question about one verse taken away from the Church prayers ? which whether it bee taken away or no , I know not : and though it bee taken away , yet how appeares it that it was taken away by him ? But Luthers condition is very hard , who must stand vnto , both what hee hath written , and what hee hath not written . And these are those our paradoxes concerning God , which you could carpe at in the bookes of all our writers , which haue come foorth in a manner infinitely . The matter is safe and sound : the aduersarie hath viewed ouer all of them , and yet hath found nothing .

By and by you proceede to the person of Christ , Of Christ . and you demand what these words of Caluin meane ; Christ i● the sonne of God , God of God , God of himselfe ▪ What reprooue you here Campian ? what , that hee said , Christ is the Sonne of God ? or for that hee termed him God of God ? or else , that he affirmeth him to be God of himselfe ? But which of these assertions is it , that is not holy , not granted , not agreeable to the Catholike faith ? which if you deny , you doe not conuince any Paradox of ours , but you bewray your owne heresie . But this is the point , vnlesse I be deceiued , wherin you haue found , I know not what , knot , as it were in a rush . The Nicene Fathers doe professe Christ to bee God of God , to the end they may teach that the Son is of the same substance with the Father . This saying , some afterward catcht at so , as that they did maintaine that Christ is not God by himselfe and of himselfe , but that hee receiued it of his Father : wherein they quite tooke away the Diuinity of Christ . For vnlesse he be God of himselfe , he cannot be God at all . For that hee may be God , hee must needs be God of himselfe . Wherefore howsoeuer those Fathers did say that Christ is God of God , yes Calain maintaineth that it is most firmely to be beleeued , that Christ hath this , to be God of himself , vnlesse we will rob Christ of his Diuinity . To be the Sonne , he receiued that indeed of the Father : for he is the Son of the Father . To be God , he hath that of f f DVR . If the Sonne of God haue not his essence from the Father , surely be is not the Sonne of the Father . WHIT. pag. 542. And why so ? did Caluin euer deny that the Son hath his essence from the Father ? he and we all teach that the Sonne was begotten of the Fathers essence ; and that the Sonne hath the whole essence of the Father , and that not by decision or propagation , as the wicked Prithe●●s dreame , but by communication . And yet h●●e you multiply Scriptures and Fathers needlesly . This we say , Christ is God of himselfe , but in this sense , that , that essence which is in the Sonne , is not from any other essence , but of and from himselfe , seeing that the essence of the Father and the Sonne is one and the same . For essence , as Basil truly writeth against Eunomius , cannot be generated : and pag. 543. wherefore Christ , so farre forth as he is God , is of himselfe ; and so farre forth as he is the Sonne , is of the Father : for he cannot be God , whose essence is not of and from it selfe , so Basil and Augustine . himselfe , because he is God by himselfe . What say you now Campian ? God of God , is with Caluin , God of himselfe : and say you so indeed ? hath not Caluin admonished you of this , that the name of God is to be taken for the Father , when as Christ is termed the Sonne of God ? That therefore which the Nicene Fathers deliuer , that Christ is God of God , that is so to be vnderstood , that we should confesse the Sonne to be begotten of the Father , and not that we should attribute the name of God only to the Father : for we must looke to it , that wee doe not so determine the Sonne to bee of the Father , as that wee should deny him to be God of himselfe . And these things Caluin hath interpreted most diligently and most holily , nor hath he set forth any one word at all different from the faith of the Scriptures and of the Catholike Church . Remember that sentence of Augustine : Christ in respect of himself is termed God , Hom. de Temp. 38. but in respect of the Father he is termed the Sonne : wherein you may acknowledge the opinion of the auncient Church .

Now you set vpon Beza : for like to the fashion of mad dogges , you stand not in one place , but flie hither and thither , and vpon whomsoeuer you light , you bite him shrewdly with your venomous teeth . Beza saith ( as you say ) he is not begotten of the essence of the Father . Why are you angrie with Beza , if he say the same things , which are wont to be said & maintained by your owne selues ? For you cannot be ignorant , what your Lombard teacheth touching the oslence of God , which both he , and the schoole men that haue followed him do affirme , neither to get , nor to be begotten . For that essence is not begotten by essence , but person by person . If Beza would imitate these , in saying that Christ was begotten not of the essence but of the person of the Father , why doe you reproue him ? and yet we may not imagine that the essence is separated from the person , as if the essence of the Sonne were another from the essence of the Father : ( for there is but one simple essence of the Deity ) but for asmuch as person is distinguished from essence ; albeit not in the thing , yet by rolation ; and sith tho Ancient were wont to speake after this manner , that they said Christ was begotten of the person of the Father , rather then of his essence : it is no maruel that the same forme of speech did like Beza best , whose iudgement it was euer , that we ought to set downe determinations touching the highest mysteries very warily and with great consideration . Now that the essence is not begotten , the whole auncient Church held , as Basil writeth expresly : C●ntr . Eu●●m . lib. 1. God is not begotten either of himselfe 〈◊〉 of any other . Albeit I do not very wel know , whether these be Beza● words which you recite : surely I remember not that I haue euer read them in Beza , nor can I find them in this place which you quote . But those that follow , are very malitious . Beza said once , that there be two personall vnions in Christ , as you say , the one of the soule with the body , the other of the Godhead with the manhood . Which speech of his Iames Andreas reproued : and indeed not without cause ; albeit this doth not follow out of that speech , that there are two persons in Christ , though there bee two personall vnions : but that , because it was written ambiguously , Beza professeth that he would willingly mend it . And what can you desire more ? if he haue erred , yet he persisted not in his error , but hath amended his fault : with what face therefore can you vpbraide him with that , which fell from him but once ere he was aware , seeing he corrected it after ? And touching the person of Christ , Beza euery where teacheth those things , than which nothing can be more true and sincere : nor is there any of vs that is wont to affirme or defend that which you obiect concerning those two personall vnions . For we confesse but one person , constituted of the two natures , as also we acknowledge but one personall vnion : for although Christ did assume both body and an humane soule ; yet these parts are not so personally ioyned together in Christ , as that they do make any person separate from his Godhead , lest we should imagine that Christ consisteth of two persons .

Now againe you make recourse to Caluin , whom I thought you had quite giuen ouer before . Caluin denieth ▪ that the place of Iohn , I and my Father are one , doth shew that Christ is God of the same substance with the Father . What then Campian ? was it so hainous an offence , to dissent from the auncient Fathers in the exposition of one place ? Did he euer deny that Christ is of the same substance with the Father ? you cannot maintaine it . For hee alwaies taught it most constantly , and confuted the Arrians by other innumerable texts of holy Scripture . For what ? doe you thinke that he cannot be of the same substance with the Father , vnlesse this place teach it ? he that heedfully readeth ouer that dispute of Christ with the Iewes , which Iohn in that chapter setteth downe , Ioh. 10. shal easily perceiue that rather g g DVR . What is this that you say ? Iohn signified the vnion of power & will , and not of essence : are you so rude , as that you are ignorant that in God , power , and essence are the same ? WHIT. pag. 546. I am not so rude , but that I well vnderstand , that the power of God is the essence of God : but doth it follow , if Christ being endowed and enuironed with the power of God could not be ouercome , but that God also should be ouercome , that the essentiall power of God and Christ is the same ? an vnity of will and power , then of essence , is signified . Christ affirmeth that no man can take his sheepe out of his hands : & that he may perswade it plainly , he adioyneth , I and my Father are one . I doe not see how you can thereout conclude an vnity of substance , vnlesse you still vnderstand that same word , One , of the substance . What is it then that Christ saith , not of himselfe only , and his Father , but of all the faithfull , Job . 17.21 . 1. Ioh. 5.8 . that they all may be one , as thou O Father art in me , and I in thee ? That place in the Epistle of Iohn , These three are one , the Ordinarie Glosse doth thus expound , that is , witnessing of the same thing . Erasmus in annot. in 1. Iob. c. 5. But Erasmus doth much more vehemently find fault with the old Fathers , because they abused these words , I and the Father are one , against the Arrians . Not , I think , for that he did any whit fauour the Arriant , but because he thought it was done by the Fathers with no great reason . But you say , that , that word , Homoousion , was odious to Luther . For he saith , my soule hateth this word , Homoousion . Luther neuer said that : only this he said , if he had hated that word , Homoousion , yet he should be no heretike as long as he held the thing it selfe . These are Luthers words : But if my soule did hate that word , Homoousion , and would not vse it , I should not bee an heretike : for who should compell me to vse it , so as I hold the thing , which was determined in a Councell by the Scriptures ? h h DVR . What more foolish then to hate a name vncopable of hatred ? WHIT. pag. 547. Then is he no heretike for hating the name , when he loueth the thing : and out of these words to faine and cast such a position vpon Luther as this ; My soule hateth that word , Homoousion ; it is a deuise most worthily deseruing perpetual hatred . But howsoeuer he did hate the name , yet he did loue the thing it selfe as his owne soule . And with this same name , it is certaine that many and those very excellent men were in times past offended , in so much as they haue wished it had neuer been heard of . For this name being once brought in , the Churches were at such conflicts betweene themselues through hatreds and contentions , that the holy Fathers themselues did not a little repent them of that name : nor if a man would haue perhaps some name to be taken away , which hath giuen occasion of many dissentions , is he therefore to be thought to disallow the thing declared by that name . Hieron . in Epist. ad Damas . Hierome could not be perswaded to receiue the three Hypostases , because he had that new name , Hypostasis , in suspition : for he was afraide lest there lay some venome vnder that name : yet hee did acknowledge and preach three persons . And now both those tearmes are receiued , nor ought any one to be offended with it .

Goe yee forward , say you : goe you also forward , Campian , seeing you will needs doe so , but it had been better for you rather to giue ouer , than to goe on of this fashion . It is better to retire than to runne ill . You reproach vs now for this , that wee say , Christ was not perfect in Grace from his infancie , but that he grew in the gifts of his mind as other men doe , and was made wiser euery day by experience . I doe easilie endure you to obiect many paradoxes against vs , seeing you taxe the very historie of the Gospell with the same fault : for who may hope that he can escape your slander , who sticke not most audaciously to fly vpon the writings of the Gospell : for what doe we teach else herein , but that which the Euangelist hath expressed in his writings once or twice ? for thus we reade in Luke . The Child increased , Luk. 2.40 . and was strengthned in the spirit , and he was filled with wisdome , and the grace of God was in him . And againe , Vers. 52. Iesus grew i i DVR . That is , saith Ieremy , and the auncient Fathers , Christ grew in wisdome , because together with his age that his wisdome did euery day more shine forth and shew it selfe to men . Ieremy thus , a woman shall compasse a man ; and Augustine , Iustine , Clement , and Hilary say , to ascribe to Christ ignorance , is an impious thing , and not to be beleeued . WHIT. pag. 550. Thus you ●rgue , Ieremy chap. 31. wrot : A woman shall compasse a man : therefore Christ was a man in his mothers wombe , full of knowledge and wisdome . Out of all doubt with these arguments you will win the field : but yet take this with you ; if a woman compassed a man , in such sort as you affirme , then it will follow that Christ was a man , before he was borne ; and Marie did beare him , not an infant , but a man ; and old Symeon tooke in his armes a man , and not a child . These are expositions worthy your patronage . As for the Fathers that you cite , they speake only of Christs Diuine nature . DVR . Adam in his creation was indued with excellent wisdome and knowledge : what madnes is it then to attribute to Christ the infirmitie of ignorance ? WHIT. I answere , you dispute very admirablie . Adam was created with excellent knowledge , therefore Christ was ignorant of nothing : first , Adam know not all things , but you say Christ was neuer ignorant of any thing . Againe from this ground you may conclude , that Christ is not dead . For if Adam in the beginning was so created , that he could not die , what madnes is it , ( to vse your owne words ) to attribute the infirmitie of mortalitie to Christ ? Tell me I pray you , which is more befitting to Christ , mortalitie or infirmitie ? But when the Scripture is manifest , that Christ did not take our nature whole and sound , as it was then in Adam , but infirme and weake , yet without sinne ; it is no maruell if he would be borne such as we are , not such as Adam was created . in wisdome , and in stature , and in fauour both with God and men . What els can be vnderstood out of these words , but that Iesus did increase both in stature and wisdome , & the more he grew in age , so much the greater progresses had he in the gifts of the holy Ghost : for so our Euangelist had written a little before of Iohn : The Child grew and was strengthned in the spirit . Luk. 1.82 . Doe you thinke that Iohn was presently as soone as he was borne endewed with perfect wisdome and grace of the spirit , so as he had no addition euer made him ? But Luke saith that Christ was full of wisdome . I doe not deny it : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . albeit Luke doe not say filled , as though he were full of wisdome , but filling , wherby some growth and addition is signified . But to grant that he was full , will you therefore haue it that nothing was added afterward ? what then doe you determine of Iohn , of whom the Angell foretold that he should be full of the holy Ghost from his mothers wombe ? Wherefore if Christ had this , that at what time he first was made man , absolute & perfect wisdome , and other gifts of the spirit were heaped vpon him , certainly he had it not alone ; nor am I moued with the authority of the schoolmen , who lest they might seeme to thinke lesse honorablie of Christ , doe attribute to him presently all perfections . And Damascens argument taken from the personall vnion doth not conclude it , Damasc . lib. 3. de Orthodox . side . vnlesse we will thinke that the Deity did infuse all the quality of it selfe into the humanity of Christ . That which the Euangelist writeth of this progresse of wisdome , pertaineth only to the human nature of Christ ? And seeing that Christ would assume the whole nature of man , Heb. 4.15 . sauing in sinne , and lay off that person of God , and emptie himselfe , and take the forme of a seruant , Phil. 2. will it be vnbeseeming the person of Christ , that wee say hee was made both wiser and fuller of grace by little and little ? He was indeed most full of grace , ●nd whatsoeuer grace any bodie hath , al that he drew out of this euer remaining fountaine of most abundant grace : Ioh. 1.16 . but yet this hindreth not , but that Christ , as the Euangelist writeth , might grow in grace : which thing also Ambrose confesseth . For so he saith : Ambros . in Luc. lib. 2. cap. 2. k k DVR . But he saith , lib. 5. de fide cap. 8. I say that the Sonne was ignorant of nothing , but he tooke vpon him our affection , that hee might say , hee was ignorant by our ignorance . WHIT pag. 553. If Christ as a child was ignorant of nothing , because of the personall vnion with the Deity , yet it is a very childish argument , to reason from the person to the humane nature ; that because the man Christ is ignorant of nothing , therefore the humani●y of Christ is not ignorant of any thing . If Ambrose sometime vpon occasion diffe● from himselfe , let him looke to it . According to the flesh certainly hee was filled with wisdome and grace . Nor doe some of your men , Campian , differ from this iudgement , lest you should perhaps imagine it to be so horrible , as that it cannot fall vpon a Catholike : for I ansenii●● Bishop of Gandaua , Comment. in concord . cap. 12. Erasm . annot. in Luc. cap. 2. who was present at the Conuenticle of Trent , professeth that he doth willingly incline to this iudgement : and Erasmus ( albeit I name him not among writers on your side ) doth giue his note that it is the truer opinion .

But , say you , they affirme also , that Christ was ignorant of some things . And why may they not affirme it ? This ( say you ) is as much , as if they affirmed that he was defiled with originall sinne . Now at length you begin to argue very wittely , that our Vniuersitie men may vnderstand your wonderfull subtiltie in disputing . Would you deale on this manner with vs , Campian , if that dispute , which you so often wish , might bee permitted you ? For what could be spoken more absurdly ? Christ was ignorant of something : therfore Christ was defiled with originall sinne . As if he that is ignorant of something , which may be knowne , or he which is not endued with the perfect knowledge of all things , it must needs be that he is defiled with sinne . Thus then I will returne you a like argument : l l DVR . Though they were ignorant of many things , yet they had not that ignorance , which commeth fr● originall corruption , which if you say Christ had , you must affirme that he was defiled with originall sinne . WHIT. pag. 555. All ignorance commeth not from originall sinne , as appeareth by the ignorance of Adam and the Angels ; therefore Christ might be ignorant without sinne . And though we affirme all ignorance is now the punishment of sinne : yet will it not follow that no ignorance was in Christ , nay rather that there was ; for hee was to take vpon him the punishment of all our sinnes . Therefore hee vnderwent not only this punishment , but also death , being the punishment of sinne , Rom. 6 . 2● . yet for all this was he not defiled with originall sinne . DVR . The Fathers say he knew not the day of iudgement , because hee hath not reuealed it , and would that others should be ignorant of it . WHIT. pag. 556. This interpretation is easilie refelled . For from this will follow that the Father also was ignorant of it , seeing the Father did no more tell it and manifest it to others , then the Sonne did . The Angels are now ignorant of many things ( for they know not that day and houre ) and Adam , Mar. 14.36 before he sinned , was ignorant of many things : ( for he did not vnderstand that Satan lay in waite for him ) therefore both the Angels are now defiled with sin , and Adam in his greatest innocencie was a sinner . You shall neuer pricke vs with these goades so , as that wee may feare any deadly wound . If you know not that there is an ignorance void of all fault , learne it of Thomas , who wil teach you , that negatiue ignorance , which he termes nescience , 12. q. 76. art. 2. is not sinne , but the priuatiue . If you can conclude that consequent out of our iudgement , that Christ was ignorant of somewhat , which hee then ought to haue knowne , when he was ignorant of it , then you put vs downe from this our standing . For it is not a fault not to know those things , which yet may bee knowne , vnlesse it concerne vs to haue them knowne . For who will blame a Porter , for that he is ignorant of the Mathematikes ? But concerning Christ , I answere now that vnto you , which toucheth this cause neerer . Although he were most pure from all spot of sinne , so as nothing could be more vncorrupt ; yet hee tooke vpon himselfe the punishment due to sinne , that he might deliuer vs from it . Therefore also hee would die , albeit death issued from sinne . He then that suffered death for vs , which sinne brought in ; can any thing , which is ours , be vnbeseeming him , so as it be not infected with sin ? And you can neuer proue , that ignorance in Christ was any whit more faultie , than death . Christ as he was a true man , albeit a pure man , so hee did neuer thinke , imagine or vnderstand all things at once , and he did sleepe sometimes . Do you thinke that Christ while hee was sleeping , did comprehend all things in his memorie ? which though you should affirme , yet I see no reason to beleeue you . That which Christ spake of that day and houre , ( no man knoweth it , Marc. 13.32 . nor the Sonne himselfe ) Cyrill writeth that Christ spake it of himself , and that he knew not the day of iudgement , Cyril . Thesaur . lib. 9. cap. 4. as he was man , because it is proper to the humane nature to bee ignorant of things to come .

But now , say you , wee shall take knowledge of worse things , and here you recite many things concerning Christs swea●e , horror , and sudden outcrie . I acknowledge that which you alleage , but I see no paradoxe therein . I am not ignorant what is wont to be giuen out by you in corners , that Christ is reproched , when wee say he was tormented with so great griefes of minde . But it is so farre off , Campian , that I doe either denie or dissemble those things which you now obiect , that I doe teach and auow them openly and freely . And though the whole nation of Iesuits should set vpon me , yet I will neuer be ashamed to celebrate Christs mercie , which I see to bee violated by them with vnspeakable iniuries . For what thinke you was it that Christ felt , which brought so great sadnes and vexation to him , that it wrung from him a bloody sweate ? was it only death , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 which takes away life and sense ? Doe you thinke that Christ could be broken so with the feare of that death that he should conceiue so much griefe in his minde , to make him sweate water and blood , for the desire he had to escape tasting of that cup which hee came to drinke of ? Did Christ so much abhorre this death , which the Martyrs haue gone vnto , ioyfull and cheerefull ? That were indeede to cast a greater reproch vpon Christ , while ye would auoide the lesser . Wherefore that which raised so great horrors in Christ , was the most bitter wrath of God against mankinde , which Christ must needes haue suffered for a time . For the whole weight of our sinnes was imposed vpon Christ , which brought with it a most heauie remembrance of Gods wrath . Seeing therefore Christ our Mediatour being laden with our sins , did suffer the greatnes of Gods displeasure , and did alone endure the punishment of our sinnes , certainly he did quake , as man , and did expresse those incredible sorrowes of his minde many waies . Hence came that speech vpon the Crosse , My God , my God , why hast thou forsaken me ? which he vttered not fainedly , but from his heart ; not despairingly , as you wickedly write , but vpon the consideration of Gods wrath , which then he was to be subiect vnto . m m DVR . Christ truly was the Sonne of God , who knew nothing in himselfe worthie of wrath , and so could not feare the paines of hell . WHIT. pag. 558. You dispute wittily : as if he were not the Sonne of Man also , and sustained the person of sinfull men . Neither did he so feare hell , as you imagine : but when the punishment of vs all was vpon him alone , he must needs as a man be greatly affected and moued with it . For God was exceedingly incensed against vs for our sinnes : Christ interposed himselfe ; and he alone vn●erwent the greatnes of that wrath powred vpon him , he therfore that saith , Christ felt nothing , diminisheth the greatnes of sin , the iustice of God , and the merit of Christ . I hat he was not swallowed vp of those torments , it must be imputed to the power of his diuine nature . DVR . But how could hee thinke himselfe forsaken of God . who offered himselfe wholy to God ? WHIT. pag. 559. If be did nor feele this defection , why did hee say vainely and rashly that he was forsaken ? he o●●ed himselfe by his eternall spirit , that is , his Diuinity , Hebr. 9.14 . Therefore this freewill offering did not hinder , but that he might feele in his mind those sorrowes which men should haue suffered . This is that Hell , of which Christ while he was aliue , and not as you obiect against Caluin , after he was dead , did taste . And certainly this vexation , which Christ endured at that time , did equall after a sort the very paines of hell . But these things are reproued by you , because they bee not vnderstood . For the Papists with their dull hearts cannot conceiue , what Christ performed for vs by his death , and what paines hee endured for the satisfying of his Father . Therefore they thinke wrong is done to Christ , when we say he suffered those things which hee both would and ought to haue suffered for vs . For it was necessarie not onely that Christ should die in n n DVR . Christ being God and man satisfied the diuine iustice , not by the greatnes and multitude of his punishment , but by the weight of his actions , euerie one of which is sufficient to be a full price of mans redemption . Neither was it necessary that Christ should vndergoe the same punishment ; which man should haue suffered , as if any man would free another from prison , who is cast into it for debt ; it is not necessary that be go into prison for him . Besides , who will say that the body of man aid sinne ? it is man that sinneth , not the bodie . WHIT. pag. 562. See I pray you what followeth vpon your defence , that it was needlesse that Christ should die at all : for if any action of him being God and man , would haue satisfied Gods iustice , and wrought mans redemption , in vaine did hee shead his blood and suffer death But if this be contrary to the decree & iustice of God , and not euery punishment but extreame sufferings both of body and soule was to be vndergone , as Christ suffered in his body the most b●●ter ●eath , so did he in his soule exquisite and extreame sorrowes . And out of your similitude it will follow ●s well , that he need not to haue descended from heauen to haue been made man , or to haue suffered any sorrowes : and yet who knoweth not , that not only the debtors themselues , but their su●●ies must be cast into prison , till the creditor be sa●●fied ? And seeing that in such a suerty as this , not the bare payment of money , but a reall suffering of grieuous paines was necessary , why should we doubt but Christ hath most truly accomplished the part of a suertie ? Lastly if the bodie doe not sinne , why should it suffer the punishment of sinne ? for is it equall , that the body , which in your iudgment doth not sinne , should be grieuously and eternally punished for sinne ? And if it bee as you say , that the man doth sinne , then must the body haue a finger in it ; for the soule of it selfe is not a man . And if Christ tooke mans sinne vpon him , it was certainly the sin of the whole man , because he hath redeemed the whole . bodie , but also in his soule wrastle with death , because not onely mans bodie , but also his soule had offended God , and deserued euerlasting death . And they that speak against this doctrine , being very full of diuine comfort , if Caluin doe prosecute somewhat eagerly , no good man ought iustly to bee displeased with him for this cause . But that you cannot abide : and therefore you cry out , Oh wicked daies ! oh monstrous times ! It may be you haue seene a monster at Rome , or rather many monsters , which trouble you now with furious thoughts , and vrge you to make an outcrie . But we Vniuersitie men are not woont much to bee moued with the clamours of mad men . For he ouercomes in the Schooles , not who can crie out most shrilly , but who can dispute most sitly vnto the truth . But I pray you , Campian , spare your voyce a while , and gather your wits together , and then I trust you will be somewhat milder anon , when you haue rested you a little , for I doe not heare that this is the continuall dint of your minde , and I doe not doubt but you may bee pacified with words . You say that Christ hath contumelious iniurie offered him by vs . Wherefore ? because he is by this meanes too much abased , and much is detracted from his Maiestie . Concerning that Nazianzen answers you : Is Christ therefore spoiled of his honour , Nazianz. because hee is become humble for thy sake ? Now how great bitternes of griefe Christ felt , learne of Rabanus , Rabanus , in Catena Thoma . if happely you regard him . Thus doth he expound those words of Christ , Why hast thou forsaken mee : Our Sauiour ( saith he ) spake this , carrying about him our affections , who being in danger thinke our selues to be forsaken . For his humane nature was forsaken because of sinne : but because the Sonne of God was made our Aduocate , he bewailes their miserie whose fault he tooke vpon him . And Hierome though he did differ from this opinion because of the Arrians , Hieronym . yet the very power of truth did wring from him some confession . Concerning Christs prayer , wherein he entreated , that that cup might be taken away , thus he writeth : Neuerthelesse returning to himselfe , that which he had refused somewhat fearefully in his nature , as man , he ratifieth in his nature as he was God and the Sonne : Yet not as I will , but as thou wilt , saith he , let not this be done which I speake in my humane affection , but that for which I came downe to the earth by thy will . Ambrosius . And Ambrose vseth these words to Gratian : As he tooke my will , so he tooke my sorrow . Finally , Melch. Canus . lib. 12. cap. 13. I will annexe the iudgement of Melchior Canus , to whom you owe much on good cause , that you may know the opinion of a flat Catholike touching this matter . Surely ( saith he ) it was conuenient that the Sonne of God , being to exhibite himselfe a sacrifice for sinne , should take vpon him not onely the sorrowes of the bodie , and of the sensitiue facultie of the soule , but also the o o DVR . But it followeth not that so he did dispaire or feele the paines of hell . WHIT. pag. 564. There was no danger , lest Christ might perchance despaire , nor is it necessary , that whosoeuer sustaineth the paines of hell for a while , the same should bee ouerwhelmed with perpetuall despaire : many of the godly are sometime afflicted with a very deepe sense of Gods anger , which they yet ouercome through Gods spirit , much more then could Christ ouercome all the paines of hell . torments of the spirit , and the griefe of the will , to the end that that most acceptable sacrifice to God for all our sinnes , might be by all meanes broken and bruised . And a little after : Hee being forsaken of God , and destitute vtterly of all comfort , did not reioyce .

You say that Bucer in comparison of this madnes was modest , although hee were very impudent , who takes Hell in the Creed for the graue . I let passe your reproch , which you lacke not in any place , nor am I disposed to extend any longer answere about this Hell . The matter is in some difference among learned men , who albeit they agree not so well among themselues about the thing , yet they agree herein excellent well , in that they affirme that the Papists doe very wickedly vnderstand it of Christs descent into Hell . For as for Hell , whether it signifie the buriall of Christ , as Bucer thought , or that sorrowe of minde , wherewith Christ was affected a little before his death , as Caluin would haue it ; yet we retaine the Article , and we teach that Christ did descend into Hell . If that cannot bee otherwise vnderstood than thus , that Christ did descend into , I know not what , Limbus Patrum , wherein you suppose the Fathers to haue been , and that hee did out of that place bring with him an infinite multitude of holy men , I will confesse that Bucer did erre , and that Caluin made a foule slip . But those your dreames concerning Hell , are worthie to be buried in Hell it selfe . Now as for that you say , that it was in deliberation in a certaine conuenticle at London , how that article might bee taken out of the Creed , this certainly is the first time that euer I heard of it , neither doe I giue any credit either to your selfe , or to your wretched Cheiny , who told you this tale . Although if the ancient Creeds of the Romane and East Church did lacke that Article , as hee affirmeth , whosoeuer hee is , that in Cyprians workes expounded the Creed with his Commentaries , perhaps their fault was p p DVR . Js it a small fault to crosse out of the Apostles Creed Christ his descension into hell ? It is solid in the Creed of Athanasius , where there is mention of buriall , and in the Nicene Creed , when his buriall is mentioned , this descension is not expressed . And who seeth not that it was necessary that his soule must descend into the common place of other soules ? WHIT. pag. 568. If it be a haynous fact to put out this article , then the Church of Rome ( which you say cannot erre ) is guiltie of this , as Ruffinus writeth in exposit. Symb. And it is no strange thing , when in very few auncient Creeds it is to be found . I could produce fiftie Creeds , which haue it not ; in certaine it is found , but then saith Ruffinus it must be vnderstood by the precedent article , for it is the same with that , which saith he was buried . And this was Bucers opinion , which the two Creeds of Athanasius and Nice do confirme : for if they be so diuersly set downe , that in some of them is mention of his buriall only , in others only of his descension ; it is manifest , that there is one and the same sense in them , and that to be buried is as much as to descend into hel , and this as much as that . Finallie it is true his soule went into the common receptacle of soules , but how proue you that that place is in hell ? for if his soule went into Paradise , it could not go into hell , vnlesse Paradise be there . lesse , which would imitate the Church of Rome , which you hold cannot erre .

Of Man . Now you make your question concerning man : and you bring vs in speaking on this fashion . The image of God is vtterly blotted out in man , no sparke of good being left : For so , say you , haue Illyricus and Caluin taught . I know well the iudgement of Illyricus , which I doe not thinke ought to bee laide to our charge . For you are not ignorant , Campian , that his opinion touching the image of God , and of the nature of originall sinne , hath been reprooued and confuted by our men : he went somewhat farther than he should ; I beleeue he did it , that he might remooue himselfe farthest off from you , whom hee throughly hated . But I would he had amended some things : then certainely had he been a very excellent man . As for Caluin you doe him open wrong , whom you ioyne with Illyricus in the fellowship of this iudgement : for he writeth directly and flatly contrarie to that , Inslit . lib. 1. cap. 15. sect. 4. that you bring him in speaking ; q q DVR . But Caluin saith , that the Saints haue nothing within but contagion and corruption . For if there be in the Saints no true iustice , but all their workes are sinnes , what can be in them besides corruption , and contagion . WHIT. pag. 572. Doe you neither feare God , nor reuerence man ? Shew v● any such words of Caluin , if you can : if you cannot , why doe you repeate that which Campian most falsely obiected at the first ? There are in the Saints and the regenerate many excellent vertues and graces of the holy Ghost , as faith , loue , hope , patience , &c. who euer said that these were nothing but corruption and contagion ? fie , away with you and your slander . As for your argument it is maruelous slender , for though the Saints haue no iustice of their owne , which doth perfectly satisfie the Law of God , yet they are indued with many excellent vertues and ornaments of the holy Ghost . If I should reason , because there is no sound learning in you at all , therefore there is nothing but meere ignorance in you , I should conclude the one as truly , as you the other . As for your last slander , that all the workes of the Saints are sinnes ; we say no that they are sinnes , but that by reason of the inherent corruption they are tainted with some spot of sin , and haue not that perfection which the law and iustice of God requireth . Wil you say , that he who is lightly touched with some disease , is nothing else , but the disease ? you should certainly stand in need of Physitions and much Physicke , if you should thus speake . That the image of God was not quite blotted out in man . But this is your fashion , that when you cannot reprooue those things which we doe say , then you faine those things to be said by vs , which may easily be reprooued . We teach , that man was created and formed so in the beginning , that hee was answerable to the image of God in all things . Now that image was a most perfect entirenes of all parts , heaped vp with all good graces and vertues , which could bee incident to the pure nature of man . Whatsoeuer he did imagine , desire , will , thinke , or vnderstand , was holie and right , and agreeable to Gods will , yea euen to the rule of that law , Thou shalt loue God with all thy heart , with all thy soule , with all thy strength , and thy neighbour as thy selfe . But after that Adam had slid backe from God , we say that this image was pitifully corrupted and deformed , that neither the vnderstanding did retaine that ancient light , nor the will did loue God , nay the whole will was turned from him , neither did there remaine entire any facultie either of bodie or soule . Although therefore we denie not that some reliques of that most noble image do remaine still , yet we hold that all that which may reconcile and make vs acceptable vnto God , and bee sufficient for vs to saluation , is blotted out and extinguished . All reason , and iudgement , and vnderstanding , which was some little peece of that image , is not vtterly lost , there is not no will at all left in vs ; but yet the fall of Adam did inflict such a blow vpon all these faculties which yet remaine in vs , that neither can our will of it selfe will any thing , which God may like of , nor our minde thinke , vnderstand , or iudge right and true things without error . Therefore Iohn saith that the light shineth in the darkenes , Joh. 1.5 . but yet the darkenes comprehendeth it not . But now those greater things , faith , righteousnesse , holinesse , and perfect vertue , which may leade vs vnto euerlasting felicitie , these did not onely receiue a wound to become weaker , but they did quite perish , and became none , vntill that they bee renewed in vs by the holy Ghost and the grace of regeneration . Wherefore thus doth the Lord speake touching man whom hee had fashioned after his owne image , whom also he knew throughly : Gen. 6.5 . The wickednes of man was great in the earth , and all the imagination of the thoughes of his hart was onely euill continually . And that we might vnderstand that these things were pronounced of mankind as it is in it selfe , and not onely of those wicked men , who liued before the flood , the Lord doth againe repeate these things after the flood , what time Noah onely with his familie were left aliue vpon the earth : Gen. 8.21 . Hereafter ( saith he ) I will not curse the earth any more for mans sake , for the frame of mans heart is euill from his youth . Can you , Campian , iudge better and righter of the image of man , than the Lord himselfe could ? If all the thoughts of mans heart bee both alwaies and onely euill , and the very frame and beginning & fountaine as it were of al his thoughts most corrupt , what now is left of that image which was sometime so excellent , which may helpe any whit to attaine happines ? Hitherto belongeth that which Christ saith , That which is borne of the flesh , Ioh. 3.6 . is flesh : and that which is borne of the spirit , is spirit . If the whole man be flesh , certainly the whole is vncleane . And Paul saith , we were the children of wrath . Eph. 2 . 3● But the Lord doth not hate his owne image , nay wheresoeuer he beholds it , hee loueth it entirely . And Paul pronounceth that the whole man euery whit is the child of wrath : wherefore that image which may make vs acceptable to God , can neuer now be found in vs . For he saith , not onely that wee are so hurt and wounded , as that yet some hope of life remaineth , but that we wholy , such as wee are in our selues , are obnoxious and subiect to euerlasting death , as if nature had framed vs thereunto . What should I heape vp more testimonies of the Scriptures , which are so plentiful through the whole Scripture , that nothing is oftner repeated than the losse of this image ? wherfore we iudge so of man after sin , before restitution , euen as Augustine writeth , whom the very Schoole-men themselues durst not reprooue . Naturall gifts were corrupted in man by sinne , and the supernaturall extinguished . But of man regenerate wee doe not say those things , which you affirme , that nothing is found in him but meere corruption and contagion . For he is indued with the spirit of Christ , he possesseth Christ dwelling in him , he is indued with faith , hope , and charitie . But he who hath nothing in him but corruption , it is certaine that he is no whit regenerate . For the new man which is created according to God , Eph. 4.14 must bee reformed after righteousnes and true holines . Indeed that which the regenerate man hath of his owne and proper to himselfe , is vitious . For so the Apostle saw another law in his members rebelling against the law of his minde : Rom. 7.23 . but those things which he receiued from God , are contrarie to this corruption and contagion ; which if any do denie to be good and holy , he may well be held blasphemous against the holy Ghost . As for that you both faine that we speake these things , and also expresse for what cause wee speake them , you bewray your wonderfull wisedome , which for those things that are not at all , can set downe a reason wherefore they be . But we doe willingly preach faith , and doe easily permit it to bee contemned of you . For you that defend nature against grace , and doe trust rather to your owne power than to Christs mercie , and doe make voide the promises by precepts , cannot haue an honourable opinion of faith .

You neuer keepe your standing , Of Sinne . . Campian , and you begin the battaile like a runnaway . For you haue a wandring and vnstable wit , as it seemeth . You oppose Illyricus to vs againe in the same cause , whose testimonie ought not to be of force against vs . For herein I professe my selfe no lesse an aduersarie to him than your selfe , I had almost said , than to your selfe . For what an vniust and vnreasonable thing is it , that you should taxe that opinion as defended by vs , which your selfe knoweth to be condemned by our Churches ? Obiect our owne opinion to vs , Campian , if you can obiect any : wee are not such , as that we should thinke whatsoeuer Illyricus could , as being a man , erre in , did any whit concerno vs . But either Illyricus must needes be drawne into this taxation , or else this place was quite to be left voide by you . For beside Illyricus , I thinke you haue no man that thinkes so . If you desire to know our opinion of this matter , I confesse indeed that that defence of Illyricus did seeme euer very absurd to me . For it both smels of the follie of the Manichies , and it maketh two soules in a regenerate man : and which is a greater matter , it destroyes the soule . That was alwaies the iudgement of the Catholike Church , which I professe to be ours , that the substance of the soule was not quite slaine by sinne , but onely charged and infected with vitious qualities : and that sinne is no inward substance of the soule , but an r r DVR . The Catholike Church neuer beleeued that sinne was an accident or qualitie , but only a priuation , for if it were an accident , God should be the cause and author of it . WHIT. pag. 573. But this priuation is it not an accidentall thing ? why then make you a scruple in words , when you vnderstand the sense ? An accident is commonly called that which is in some substance , but is no part of it , which may either be absent or present without the corruption of the subiect and such a thing euery man knoweth sinne is . And though I confesse that the nature of sinne consisteth in a priuation ; yet it is not a bare priuation , as you may learne ou● of your Thomas . For. 1.2 . quaest. 82. art. 1. he saith , sinne is not a meere priuation , but a corrupt habit , like vnto a disease , whereby not only health is taken away , but bad humours are brought vpon the bodie . And the Schoole men when they make priuation of originall iustice to be the forme of originall sinne , and the matter to be concupiscence or a corrupt inclination of the faculties of the soule , what doe they teach , but that in sinne there is some positiue thing , as Thomas vseth to call it ? But why do I endeuour to refell you , for whom Physike is fitter then a refuration ? As for your reason it hath no force ; for God is not to be accounted the author of all accidencies , but indirectly and by accident . Basil saith , That the roote and cause of sinne is in our selues , euen our freewill . accident . s s DVR . Basil saith not , that sin is an accident or a quality , but an affection contrary to vertue . WHIT. pag. 575. Then must it be somewhat , for nothing cannot be contrarie to vertue . Basill writeth truly , in that hee denieth that sinne is any liuing substance , or indued with a soule , Basil . i●ub●●p . hons . 2. August . de nuptijs . lib. 1. cap. 25. but a qualitie contrarie to the vertue of the soule . Augustine : t t DVR . Augustine will accuse you for slandering him , because he spake not of sin , but of concupiscence , which he accounted to be no sinne . WHIT. pag. 576. Doth Augustine account concupiscence no sinne ? why then calleth he it an affection of an euill quality ? why doth he compare it to a disease ? why doth he demaund the question , how concupiscence should remaine in the regenerate , whose sinnes are all remitted , if it were not a sinne ? his answere proueth it yet more fully . For he saith , concupiscence is remitted in Baptisme , not that it should be no sinne at all as you would haue it , but that it should not be imputed for a sinne . If it were no sinne , how could it be imputed for a sinne ? Finally August . cont. ●ulian . lib. 5 cap. 3. affirmeth that it is a sinne , and a punishment of sin , and a cause of sinne , and that in the regenerate . It is manifest in the place , that he speaketh of that concupiscence against which the spirit lusteth , and which in without the consent of the will . It at any time he denie it to be a sinne , it i● not simplie , but in opposition to actuall sinne ; for how should that be nothing , which is remitted in Baptisme , which Christ satisfied for by his blood ? or is God angry with vs for nothing ? It must therfore needs be sin . Originall sinne ( saith he ) remaineth not substantially , as it were some bodie or spirit , but it is a certaine affection of an euill qualitie , like a disease . Finally Ambrose most plainly : Ambros . in Rom. 6. c. 7. u u DVR . Ambrose his words refell your error . WHIT. pag. 577. Nay they refell your error . For hee saith , it is a straying from good . Now this straying is an action , and not a meere priuation . And you your selues earnestly defend that sin is an action . If it be an action , then an accident , then no meere priuation , them not nothing . How dwelleth sin in the flesh , seeing it is no substance , but a straying from good ? Therfore let vs , if you please , send away the suspition of this error imposed by you vpon vs , to the author himselfe .

As for that you adde , that it is a thing commonly held by this filthie sect , that all sinnes be equall , verily nothing could be spoken more impudently . Pardon me , Campian , if I answere you somewhat sharpely : for your vnmodest and intolerable impudencie wrung that terme from me . Are you so far spent that you are not able to charge vs with any true crime , but shamelessely to obiect those things against vs , from which we , of all others , are farthest off ? For who did euer more vehemently disallow , or more strongly confute this paradoxe of the Stoiks , than our Diuines , whom you now pursue ? All records of these times may be witnesses hereof , our bookes , Churches and Schooles be witnesses , as also both the ciuill and Church Discipline may be a witnesse . Did you thinke that you could creepe into the minds of our Vniuersitie men by these meanes , by lying so openly , so shamefully , and so boldly ? O Rome , what a Campian hast thou returned to vs ! how much chaunged from him that he was when thou receiuedst him ? Art thou wont so to instruct , adorne and polish thy pensioners , as that they retaine nothing of their auncient shamefastnes ? What may I complaine of , or to whom should I appeale ? surely euen to the very same our Vniuersitie men , to whom you your selfe write : they may conuince you by their testimonies . For within these two yeares our Cambridge men haue heard this very matter twise propounded and defended in the diuinity Schooles , That sinnes are not equall . If neither our owne confession , nor the testimonie of all mortall men can make enough for the defending of our innocencie ; be it , that we are Stoikes , and heretikes , and euery thing else .

But these are * * DVR . Herein Caluin made sinnes equall , for that hee thought all sins to be deadly , and worthy of euerlasting punishment . WHIT. pag. 578. Therefore doth Caluin make all sinnes equall , because hee proueth that all sinner are in their owne nature deadly ? but the Scripture hath taught this most plainly . For if euery sinne be the transgression of Gods law , and an auersion & defection from God , which is the chiefest good , it must needs in it selfe deserue eternal death , Rom. 6.21.23 . Iam. 2.10 . though euery sinne in Gods iustice is odiudged to eternall death , yet it doth not equally deserue it . Caluins words , saith Campian , howsoeuer with an exception , if they be pondered by God the Iudge . What are these the words of Caluin ? that he saith sinnes are equall , but so , if they be weighed by God the Iudge ? nothing lesse : for Gods iudgements could not be right , if so be he did iudge sinnes to be equall . But marke yee a singular witnesse . The Fathers of the Councell of Trent pronounce a curse on them , who affirme that a iust man doth sin either mortally or venially in euery good worke . To this Caluin answereth that which Salomon saith , Antidot . 6. Sess. in Can. 25. that man thinketh his owne waies right , but God pondereth the hearts . But in the iudgement of God nothing is sincere and honest , but that which floweth from the perfect loue of him . Caluin speaketh not one word of the equalitie of sins , nor was there any cause why he should . Only this he intendeth , if the Lord would weigh in his ballance the excellentest works of godly men , that he would easily find what to condemne : what is this to the purpose ?

As for that , that Thomas Walsingham did obiect against Wicliffe , it is not much materiall , he wrote many things against Wicliffe being dead , and let passe no slander which witty malice could deuise . While Wicliffe was aliue , no aduersaries could hurt him , but being dead they condemned him , they plucked him out of his graue , burned his body , when they might without danger deuise any thing against that most holy man . Neither can I euer be induced to beleeue , that Wicliffe taught these things , if this imputation depend vpon no greater credit than of an aduersarie . As touching that , that you report of the Duke of Guise , I defend not the fact : he that committed it , suffered punishment greater I wis , than Tauerners are wont , that kill pullen when there is no need . I confesse that the Guise was a man of admirable fortitude : I would he had been of more clemencie . He was slain , euen as you say , by a wicked man , whom if perhaps either hope of impunity or feare of punishment did induce , that being examined , hee did accuse verie noble and innocent men , it is neither marueilous nor new . Him that he did appeach as the Ringleader of his plot , the King himselfe did pronounce an innocent : but as for Beza all good men haue acquitted him in their iudgements long ago .

From Sinne you passe your speech to Grace : Of Grace . I would rather you your selfe did make passage : and you hope , that we who are so strict in the matter of sin , will play the Philosophers so gloriously about Gods Grace . Surely we shall thinke we play the Philosophers very well , if we referre all our Philosophie for the amplifying of the Crosse of Christ . Gal. 6.14 . You also do treate of Grace , but as still you are wont , in few words . But what do you reproue in our Philosophie ? because we place Grace out of vs only in the fauouer of God . For you , Campian , would haue your men to be perswaded , that we take all Grace from man , and doe place it only in the mind of God , like Platoes Idea . But either you know not what you talke of in this place , and that you are ignorant of this Philosophie , or els you suffer not our opinion , being infolded in your slanders , to bee manifest . For wee make grace to bee twofold ( that I may omit many distinctions ) wherein wee doe not disallow the Philosophie of your Schoole men . For either Grace declareth the free goodwill and clemencie of God toward vs , or else it signifieth those gifts , which flow out of that mercy of God to vs . That they commonly call , Grace making acceptable ; and this , Grace freely giuen . Now for that x x DVR . I know well your doctrine of imputatiue iustice , than which I know not whether any man can deuise one thing more against the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 582. Thus you speake , like a Iesuite : but what is there that the Scripture doth more celebrate than imputatiue iustice ? Rom. 4.3.4.5.6 . is a most cleere text for it . But what ? know you not that our sins were imputed to Christ ? and why then may not Christs righteousnes be imputed to vs in l●ke manner ? Thinke you that Christ had our sinnes really infused into him ? I suppose , you will neuer say so : seeing then in the one part you are compelled against your will to confesse an imputation , why do you not also grant it in the other , specially seeing the Apostle himselfe propoundeth vs this Antithesis , 2. Cor. 5.21 . Christ was made sinne for vs , that we might be made the righteousnes of God in him ? Therefore we are so made righteousnes in Christ , as he was made sinne for vs , which must necessarily bee vnderstood of imputation . And ve●●ly whereas our iniustice or iniquitie is a debt , and Christ hath payed it , then must it of necessity follow , that , that payment is ours no otherwise then only by imputation . Againe , I pray you , what can bee imagined more absurde , then that the merit● of Saints should be imputed vnto vs , and Christ his righteousnes cannot bee ? for they who buy indulgences with money , doe not doubt but to reape much fruit from the merits of others . It then the merits of Saints , as you thinke , can make them more iust , in whom they are not inherent , what an impious and absurd thing were it to giue lesse power of imputation to the merits and righteousnes of Christ ? DVR . Charity i● the end of the Law . Rom. 13. For he that loueth his brother hath fulfilled the Law. So that if charity be truly in vs , we haue true iustice : and well said Augustine , Charitie begun , is iustice begun ; charitie encreased , is iustice encreased ; great charity is great iustice ; perfect charitie is perfect iustice . WHIT. pag. 583. All is true you say touching charitie . Loue your neighbour as the law requireth , and you haue fulfilled the second Fable : but this you cannot doe ; therefore be not brag in the opinion of your charitie , which if it were as great as euer any man had , yet it should be farre short of that the Law requireth , neither can it make you iust . As for Augustine wee confesse as much as hee saith : but this is not the iustice which fre●th vs from the wrath of God , for that neuer increaseth or groweth , but is euer most absolute and perfect , that is Christ his obedience imputed vnto vs by faith . Of charitie August . Epist. 29. writeth thus . As long as charity may be encreased , that verily which is lesse , is faulty : by that which is faulty , there is none iust vpon earth . goodwill and fauour whereby the Lord embraceth vs in Christ , and forgiueth vs our sinnes , and receiueth vs into fauour ; we place it in God : but the effects of this Grace are in vs : which effects are these , that we do by the holy Ghost perceiue that wee are loued of God , that we beleeue in God , and repose al hope of saluation in that mercy of God . We do not therefore take away all grace from man , and place it only in Gods fauour : but that first grace , wherby he hath reconciled vs to himselfe in Christ , and wherin our saluation is contained , that alone wee place in God ; which being felt by vs , faith , hope , and charity and other vertues do follow it , which are ours , and resident in vs . But we deny that position of yours of infused grace , whereby you defend , that the grace whereby we are iustified , is a certaine habite situate in our minds within : and we acknowledge no other iustifying y y DVR . Why do you not then freely confesse that you doe place all grace only in the fauour of God without vs , which fauour doth neither amend the wicked , nor purge , nor illuminate , nor enrich them , but only dissemble their old remaining & stinking chanell , God winking at it ? WHIT. pag. 584. You cease not to trouble vs with your ignorance : for doth it follow that wee remoue all grace from vs , because wee place iustifying grace , which is the mercy of God in Christ , not in vs , but in God only ? for beside this grace , there is another grace communicated to all the Saints , wherby their soules ●re purged and renewed . This consisteth in faith , and in the fruits of faith , which they commonly cal Grace infused : therfore that chanell of sin doth remaine not within them , that haue attained true righteousnes , as you slander vs to teach ; but by the power of the holy Ghost it is daily purged out ; yet so , that as long as we liue there remaine some reliques of sin & old Adam . For if that chanel were so purged , that no blots of sinne did remaine in vs ; neither would S. Paul complaine of the law of his members , and the body of death , Rom. 7.23.24 . Neither should wee neede the renuing of the spirit , 2. Cor. 4.16 . grace , but the great and free mercy of God , whereby hee did elect and predestinate vs in Christ before all eternitie vnto life euerlasting , and hath called vs in time and iustified vs . z z DVR . But what place of Scripture doth distinguish iustification from sanctification ? S. Paul doth not , 1. Cor. 6.11 . Rom. 6.13 . That also is a strange thing , that faith should iustifie vs and not sanctifie vs : but more strange that Christ should impute his righteousnes to vs , that we may be iust , and yet not holy and sanctified . WHIT. pag 586. Who can reade the Scripture , specially the Epistle to the Romanes , and not find these two distinguished ? for in the first part of it he treateth of iustification , in the latter of sanctification ; what is more manifest then that he writeth , Rom 8.30 . whom he hath called , those hee hath iustified ; whom hee hath iustisted , those hee hath glorified . Now this glorification signifieth the glorious renouation , which is begun heere , and perfected in another life , as your Thomas vpon this place hath obserued . Againe , 1. Cor. 1.30 . Is not heere iustification and sanctification distinguished ? iustification and sanctification are inseparable , yet must they be distinguished : which because you do not , you place iustification in sanctification Your place out of the Epistle to the Corinthes , doth plainly distinguish them . Your second place sheweth that a kind of iustification is in sanctification : but it is not that perpect iustice , by which we are iustified before God , but only an imperfect one . As for your wonde●s and strange things , they come from your ignorance : for we haue neuer sepa●ated these two , but affirme that he who is by faith partaker of Christ his righteou●nes , must needs haue the old man crucified , and the body of sinne destroyed in him , that he may no longer serue sinne . For grace infused , wherein regeneration and sanctification consisteth , and which the Scriptures call the new man , is not strong enough to iustifie vs , a a DVR . Grace infused and our inherent righteousnes , though it be not perfect , yet it is true iustice , and doth iustifie vs . WHIT. pag. 58● . By this you ouerthrow your doctrine of iustification : for that iustice which doth reconcile vs to God ought to be most perfect , that such as neither the law nor God himselfe can require a more perfect . That which is not perfect , is in it kind corrupt . If then ●n imperfect iustice can please God , then a corrupt thing will please him , and so should he not be perfectly iust : but being most iust , that only pleaseth him , which is according to the prescription of the law , most perfect . Luk. 10.27.28 . Leuit. 18.5 . because it neuer satisfieth the law of God in this life , and ought euery day to be restored , and aspire to greater perfection . For so Paul saith , 2. Cor. 4.16 . Although our outward man perish , yet our inward man is renewed daily : which place Augustine hath very often vsed in this cause . You see therfore both what grace we place in God , and what we confesse to be infused into our hearts . For as for that you say wee barke out , that grace is not strong enough for the resisting of sinne , therein you goe about thorough our sides to wound Paul himself , vppon whom this your reproch reboundeth . Rom. 7.18.19.21.23 . For though he were indued with infused grace , as much as any other , yet he denieth that he could attaine , to perfect that which is good : b b DVR . S. Paul saith only , that hee was assayed and tempted by those motions ; but seeing it is not sinne , where the consent of the will is not , bee saith , it was not hee that did it , but the flesh , for hee doubted not but grace was sufficient for him , whereby be might ouercome all these , seeing he had the word of Christ for it . 2. Cor. 12.9 . And he shevoeth that by this grace wee may ouercome our corruptions , Rom. 7.25 . WHIT. pag. 594. But the Apostle sheweth that he was not only tempted by these , but ouercome . Rom. 7.15 . he ●aith , he did that which he hated . Why did he hate it , vnlesse it were worthie hatred ? Now nothing is worthy hatred , but sinne . And vers. 19. he addeth , hee did the euill , which he would not . Then he sinned : for to be tempted with euill , is not to do that a man would not : but to be tempted and to ouercome them , is to do that a man both should and would do . And vers. 23. he saith , he was led captiue to the law of sinne . How can he be a captiue and not be ouercome ? Beleeue the Apostle then , and he could not resist sinne alwaies by all his grace . But you say his will did not giue consent : bee it so , yet those motions are sinne against the tenth Commandement . For Rom. 7.7 . he sheweth that he speaketh of concupiscence without consent . For lusts with consent , subduing the will , the Philosophers confessed to be sinne . For the place you alleage 2. Cor. 12.9 . the sufficiencie of Gods grace is but so much , that hee should not bee swallowed vp of temptations . The godly fall often , but God lifteth them vp againe . For the other place , Rom. 7.25 . you are deceiued by the corrupt Latin translation . For in the Greeke it is , I thanke God by Iesus Christ : you reade it as if asking the question , who should deliuer him from the body of death ; he had answered himselfe ; The grace of God by ●esus Christ , when he giueth thankes to God , as if hee had said ; Though this body of death be troublesome vnto me , because it compelleth me to serue sin , yet I rest in that hope , which I haue placed in Christ . for that he did not the good which he would , but the euill that he would not : and that when he desired to do good , euill was present with him : finally that the law of his members doth so rebell against the law of his mind , that it maketh him captiue to the law of sin . Hence you may know how great strength sinne hath , which euen the Apostle himselfe , albeit hee were indued with singular grace , could not so fully resist , but that sometimes he was both ouercome of it , and bound vp in it , as Augustine speaketh . If you doubt , Campians , whether the Apostle spake this of himselfe , I had rather you should take aduise of Augustine , August . de verb. Apost. Serm. 5 & ●libi . Gal. 5.17 . than of the Masters of Trent , seeing they be very bad interpreters of the Apostle . What should I remember to you Dauid , and the rest of the Fathers , who haue taught by their examples , that it is not easie to resist sinne ? but herein you are like your selfe , in that you say , that Christ is no otherwise said by vs to b● full of grace and truth , but th●● , that the Father did very much fauour him . I pray you Campian , whence could you gather this ? Do we not say that Christ was full of grace so ; that from his fulnes we all receiue grace : who of vs did euer deny that there was very great and infinit grace in Christ . For they that say that Christ was so full of grace , that all men did declare that hee was worthy of the vnspeakeable fauour both of God and men , they doe not only hold , that Christ was no otherwise full of grace , but herein that God did very much fauour him ; but also they doe set out Christs grace to haue bin more abundant . For they doe confesse , Ioh. 3.34 . both that the grace of the spirit was plentiful in Christ without measure , and also they hold that there did an outward grace so shine forth in Christ , that all did loue him and did perceiue that he was beloued of God , this doth Brentius and Bucer , and all our Diuines acknowledge .

What thing therfore ( say you ) is Iustice ? Of Iustice . you make answere to your selfe , a Relation . If you commence an action against vs about Aristotles Predicaments , certainly we feare not , but we shall haue a Philosopher gentle enough in this cause . For though Iustice be c c DVR . That which is not at all cannot bee a reall Relation . WHIT. pag. 600. But Christs righteousnesse is not , not at all . For Christ performed all things which the Law required , therefore was indued with the qualitie of perfect iustice : but that reason which perswadeth vs , to confesse , that this righteousnesse of the Law in Christ was a quality , the same compelleth vs to thinke that this righteousnesse is not a quality inherent in vs ; for that wee neuer in our owne person obeyed the Law. Now what doth let , that that righteousnesse in Christ cannot bee made ours by relation and imputation ? for common sense might haue taught you this , if a man do pay money in your name , this payment is yours by imputation . If you aske , how that is yours , which is not inherent in you ; I say againe , which thing the Apostle doth so oft presse , it is yours by imputation . Now rub vp your Philosophie , if you can , to proue that nothing is made ours by imputation . a Relation , yet Philosophie will not be cashierd : but that it is a quality you can neuer proue , either out of the Predicaments , or out of the chiefest Philosophie . But your Theologicall vertues , faith , hope , and charity , had neuer any iniurie offred to them by vs : indeed they be so handled by you , that you seeme to take them not for Theologicall , but for Philosophicall vertues . But the cause that maketh vs not to hold , that our righteousnes is compounded of these vertues , as you would haue it , is this , because they are neuer so perfect in this life , as throughlie to satisfie the law of God : now the law must be satisfied or else we cannot be iust . For the Lord doth allow no other righteousnes , but the very same which is described in the law , which whosoeuer cannot attaine , are pronounced guilty of eternall death . Therfore if we will be righteous and saued , and free from that horrible curse , such a righteousnesse must bee sought out , than which the law cannot require a more absolute . And where shall we find this ? Is it in our vertues , in our faith , in our charitie ? But these are weake many waies , and want that integrity which the law requireth , & wherunto it propoundeth righteousnes . For faith is but begun , & we are alwaies to pray that it may bee increased in vs . Now if faith be weak , Rom 1.17 . Luc. 17.5 . other vertues which spring from faith , cannot be perfect . But righteousnesse must be of that kind , as that nothing at all may be added thereunto . From hence it followeth , that righteousnesse is not compounded of our vertues , as you vnfitly speake , but it must be fetcht elsewhere . Seeing therefore wee had no such vertue , as might obtaine righteousnesse for vs with the Lord , Christ was giuen vs by the Lord , who performed perfect obedience to the law , that by his obedience we might be made righteous . For this obedience of Christ imputed to vs , and apprehended by faith , Rom. 5.19 . is that righteousnes of ours , which you enquire after , not heaped vp with our vertues , as you would haue it , but place in Christ , who is made vnto vs of God , 1. Cor. 1.30 . wisedome , righteousnesse , sanctification , and redemption . And this is our d d DVR . The Scripture plainly witnesseth , that as we are made sinners by Adam , so we are made iust by Christ . Rom. 5. WHIT. pag. 602. You vnderstand not the Apostle . For though we bee iust in Christ , as we were sinners in Adam , yet not after the same manner . In Adam we sinned , and had his sinne by propagation deriued to vs : but the iustice of Christ , thought it was communicated vnto vs by imputation , ye 〈◊〉 ●as it not so deriued vnto vs . The Apostle would only teach and say this , as Adam was the author of sin , so Christ was the author of righteousnesse . righteousnes , euen Christ e e DVR . Answere me I pray you , why the Apostles and Christ do so oft exhort vs to the obedience of the law ? and neuer bid vs apprehend the righteousnes of Christ by faith ? as Luk. 10. Matth. 25. WHIT. pag. 603. Christ and his Apostles do exhort vs to the obedience of the law , not to the end wee may deserue euerlasting life by our workes , but because it is our duty to walke in that race of piety wherein wee are placed , that wee walking in those good workes , and insisting in that way which the Lord hath propounded to vs , may come at length to that most happy mark For albeit we neuer come to a marke vnlesse we goe the right way , yet the way is not the cause of the marke . Now whereas you say that we are no where commanded to apprehend Christ righteousnes by faith , you bewray your miserable ignorance . Peruse therefore better these famous places for proofe of that the Scriptures do commaund vs this . Rom. 4.5 . Rom. 5.19 . Rom. 1.17 . Gal. 2.16 . Gal. 3.14 . Ion. 3 18. Ioh. 5.24 . Act. 10.43 . As for the cause for which Christ in Matth. 25. saith he will make mention of workes in the day of iudgement , it is for that as Iames ( chap. 2.18 . ) saith , works do make shew & proofe of faith . But in that very place vers. 34. before Christ mentioneth those workes of the Saints , he toucheth the true and proper causes of saluation . 1. Gods adoption in Christ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 possesse by the right of inheritance . For that which one possesseth by the right of inheritance , hee doth not deserue it by his merits . 2. The eternall election of God , when hee saith that it is a kingdome prepared for them from the foundations of the world . Now if your opinion be this , that God did prepare them this kingdome , because he did foresee their great good workes , your owne Thomas is an aduersarie against you . Thom de verit . quast. 6. art. 2. & Thom. 1. part quaest. 23. art 1. himselfe , whose f f DVR . Christ is called by S. Paul our righteousnes : so in the same place hee saith , that he is our wisdome , and our sanctification . WHIT pag. 609. That wisdome , and righteousnes , & sanctification , which S. Paul affirmeth Christ to be made vnto vs , are not resi●ent in vs as qualities , nor are they otherwise ours , than as we doe embrace and possesse whole Christ by faith . righteousnes and innocencie being ascribed vnto vs , doth bring assured remission of sinnes , and true righteousnes . This the Diuines cal the first iustice , after which followeth another , compounded of these vertues of yours . For with that remission of sinnes , which dependeth on Christs obedience , faith , and hope , & charity are ioyned , which make vs iust also after a sort , but inchoatiuely not perfectly .

I haue declared to you in few words our opinion touching righteousnes , sith you make inquiry , what it is . But your vertues cannot so cloath the soule round about , as that no naked thing may appeare . For all our righteousnesses , are like g g DVR . Jf you speake of that iustice , which we get to our selues without the helpe of Christ , you say truly : but if of that which Christ hath purchased for vs by his blood , and powred into our harts , you doe an intollerable iuturie vnto Christ . WHIT. pag 610. I speake of that righteousnes which euerie regenerate man hath by the help of Christ . For do you thinke the Prophet wanted the helpe of Christ ? yet he professeth his righteousnes is impure and imperfect : if you thinke hee did speake of their workes which are not regenerate , you must deny that hee was regenerate , who confesseth the imperfection of his workes . Of this righteousnesse Beruard doth vnderstand it , Serm. 5. de verbis Isay And all the godly haue thus confessed of them clues . Psal. 130.3 . Dan. 9.7 . Ezra . 9.15 . Iob. 9.3.28 . 1. Ioh. 1.8 . & 1. Ioh. 2.7 . filthie clouts , Esay 64.6 . and those not only defiled , but also torne and rent in many peeces . Rom. 13.14 . Phil. 3 9. 2. Cor. 5.19 . Christ himselfe must be put vpon vs , that we may be found in him , not hauing our owne h h DVR . Saint Paul calleth the righteousnes of the law , that which is gotten by the doctrine of the law without the helpe of Grace : And the iustice of faith , not any apprehended by faith , but because they come vnto it by faith . WHIT. pag. 613. In examining the place we shall see of what iustice S. Paul speaketh : first he denieth that to bee any part of iustice , whatsoeuer he had gloriously done when he was a Pharisie ; that though he was then according to the iustice of the Law without reproofe , & indued with many good qualities , yet he accounted all loffe for Christs sake . vers. 4.5.6.7 . And lest any should thinke that he attributed any thing to his workes ofter faith ; he addeth that he reiecteth these also , neither ascribed his iustification vnto them . Adding in the 8. verse . that hee accounted all things losse . Not the other , but these also I contemne : and vpon this inferreth . vers. 9. Not hauing my owne righteousnes , which is of the law ▪ but that which is through the faith of Christ . When then he excludeth all kind of workes , hee must needs vnderstand the iustice of Christ . righteousnes which is of the law , but that which is by the faith of Christ ; namely the righteousnes that is of God through faith . For God was in Christ and reconciled the world vnto himselfe , not imputing their sinnes to them . With this cloathing our soules must be cloathed , that they may be beautified and gloriously adorned : neither are wee ashamed of that word , vpon which you play , when we say that our righteousnes is a couering of the fault . For so doth the Prophet Dauid pronounce him to be a blessed man , Psal. 22.1 . Rom. 4.6 . whose iniquities be forgiuen , & whose sins are couered . And this pardon we apprehend only by faith : now this faith is not feined , nor dead , nor separate from other vertues , nor void of good workes , but it is of that nature , that it worketh by loue . It is therefore faith alone , which iustifieth , that is , which embraceth Christs obedience wherin our righteousnes consisteth ; but yet this faith which iustifieth , is neuer alone : for it is euer accompanied with hope , and charity , and doth not suffer it selfe to be disioyned from it . For as the heate alone of the fire doth set the wood on fire , and yet this heate is not alone , but continually ioyned with the light : so faith alone of it self doth iustifie , albeit it can neuer be quite alone .

Now seeing that all our righteousnes and happines , do consist in the pardon of sinnes , we also teach that this ought to be most certainly perswaded to vs and knowne of vs , so as our soules may rest therin as in a most safe and quiet hauen . For being iustified by faith , wee haue peace toward God , through our Lord Iesus Christ . Now what could this peace be , it we were alwaies distracted with a doubtful hope & thoughts , and tossed as it were with waues hither and thither about our saluation ? Albeit therefore our consciences are set vpon oftentimes by many terrors , so as they cannot be so secure in this life , as if wee did alreadie enioy the endlesse ioy of heauen ; yet we say that this faith ought to depend most certainly and strongly vpon the promises of God , so as wee may expell all doubting about the grace of God , our adoption , and saluation . For true faith cannot agree with vnbeliefe . It is the propertie of this to distrust Gods promises , but the property of that is to ouercome and driue away all doubting ; as much as may be . But if faith be full of doubting , wherein doth it go beyond vnbeliefe ? let vs beleeue the Apostle , who both knew very well , and hath described exactly the nature of true faith . He propoundeth Abraham vnto vn , in whom wee may behold a most notable image of true faith . What did he ? did he stagger ? was hee in suspense with himselfe ? did he doubt ? nay in him al things were contrary : Rom. 4 . 1● . he against hope did beleeue vnder hope : he was not weake in the faith : hee did not discourse against the promise of God through vnbeliefe : he was strengthned in the faith : hee was fully perswaded , that God which had promised , could performe it . And this faith was imputed to him for righteousnes . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . This was Abrahams faith : shal ours bee vnlike it ? but he is our Father , wee his children , and children should bee like their father . The conclusion is made now against you Campian , that by faith wee are i i DVR . You can neuer shew out of Gods word , that forgiuenes of all sinnes is giuen to them , who apprehend the righteousnes of Christ by saith . WHIT. pag. 618. This that you deny to be shewed in the Scriptures , is most plainly taught in them , as Ioh. 3.16 . Act. 10.43 . Act. 13.39 . DVR . But we know not whether we be endued with true faith . WHIT. pag. 620. Indeed it cannot be denied , that many are deceiued with a fained faith : but they who are indued with true faith , they do know that they haue true faith : so did Paul 2. Tim. 1.12 . know for himself & in 2. Cor. 13.5 . he biddeth other learne to know it . So a Christian may know that he hath true faith , & that by the spirit that he hath giuen vs , as 1. Ioh. 3.24 . made certaine of our saluation , and that your variable and suspicious faith is liker to infidelity than to faith . Basil . in 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . k k DVR . That which you bring out of Basil and the Tridentime Catechisme doth ouerthrow your selfe : & what certaintie can a man haue of his iustification , when as S. Paul saith . 1. Cor. 4.4 . I know nothing by my selfe , yet am I not thereby iustified . And the like hath Iob. cap. 9.15.20 . WHIT pag. 622. If they attribute to faith a most certaine perswasion without doubting , as they do , do they not confirme our doctrine , that a man may be certaine of his saluation . For those temptations which come from the flesh , though they may shake it , yet they cannot ouerthrow it . As for S. Paul doth hee denie himself to be iustified , doth he doubt of his saluation ? Reade the end of the eight to the Romans , and you shall find him so certaine of his iustification and saluation , as that you Papists are glad to answere , that he had it by an extraordinary reuelation of the spirit . And do you now make him doubting of his saluation ? But you vnderstand not Saint Paul in the place you alleadge : for he doth not not deny that he is iustified ; but he saith that thereby he is not iustified , because he knoweth nothing by himselfe . Iob also though he dare not trust to his owne workes and innocency , yet he sheweth himselfe to be certaine of his owne saluation . Iob 19.26 . Basil saith excellently : What is the propertie of faith ? a full or certaine perswasion void of all doubting . But what meane I to conuince you by testimonies of the auncient , whom the very Catechisme of Trent doth confute ? Catechis . Trid. in 1. art Symb. The word beliefe ( saith it ) as the holy Scriptures teach , hath the force of most certaine consent . Wherefore he beleeueth , to whom any thing is certaine and assured without doubting . Now we beleeue euerlasting life , therefore it ought to be most certaine & assured to vs without any doubting . I require now nothing more , the Catechisme of the Councell of Trent , ratified by the authoritie of the Pope and Councell , teacheth me that a man ought to be certaine of his saluation .

But are you not yet quiet , but stil question farther , for ( say you ) how can a man be sure l l DVR . Who could euer be certaine of his owne perseuerance to the end , without the peculiar reuelation of God ? WHIT. pag. 626. In this speech you cut in sunder the sinewes of Gods euerlasting decree . For seeing Gods predestination is certaine and vnchangeable , it doth cause our calling , iustifying , and glorifying to be as certaine as it selfe . For is it in your power to dissolue and breake in sunder that golden chaine of the Apostle ? Rom. 8.30 . and to whom can his owne perseuerance be doubtfull , seeing God testifieth his perpetual good wil towards vs , as these scriptures fully teach . Ier. 32 40. Ioh. 13. 1. Luc 22.32 . Iob. 17.20.21 . Matth. 21.22 . Rom. 8.9 . Ioh. 14.16 . Ioh. 10.28 . Phil. 2.6 . Rom. 11.29 . 1. Ioh. 3.9 . Matth. 24.24 . of his future perseuerance ? That may be certaine , Campian , by faith , which if it be true cannot vtterly decay . Heb. 11.1 . The Apostle termeth faith the m m DVR . No man euer doubted but that all those things which we beleeue are most certaine . But you ought to shew that euery ode ought to beleeue that he shall perseuere in that faith to his end , Saint Paul sheweth that certaine had made shipwracke of faith . 1. Tim. 1.19 . WHIT. pag. 627. The question is not whether things beleeued be certaine or no : for that the Diuels do certainly know ; which is as much as you Papists doe beleeue , by your owne confession , and so you confesse your selues to bee void of true faith But the faith , the Apostle speaketh of , doth not only beleeue those things are true in themselues , but that they are partakers of them . Therefore he saith , it is the ground of things hoped for , because it enioyeth those good things which are prepared for another life by a certaine & an approued hopes and the euidence of things not seene , because it now beholdeth things that are hid from our eies . The perseuerance then of the faithfull is so certaine , that they may thinke they haue the possession of those things which they shall receiue in another world . Now the faith S. Paul speaketh of , is not a iustifying faith , but only true and sound doctrine , of which Hym●naeus and Alexander had made shipwtacke . ground of things that are hoped for , & the euidence of things that are not seene . Now how are those things extant which bee hoped for , or demonstrated which are not seene , if faith bee not perpetuall ? But they which are endued with this faith , they doe now after a sort enioy those good things , which are yet hoped for , & they do contemplate those things , which cannot be seene with mens eies . So that faith admits vs being aliue here , and as the Apostle saith , 2. Cor. 5.7 . walking by faith and not by sight , into the very possession of heauen , so as because we are n n DVR . 1. Cor. 10. He that standeth let him take heed lest he fall . Phil. 2. worke out your saluation which feare : the like . Heb. 4. WHIT. pag. 633. 1. You haue falsified , 1. Cor. 10. for Paules words are , he that thinketh he standeth let him take heed lest hee fall . Wherein you go against euen your owne authenticall Latin translation . Blush you not at this ? 2. The very Saints themselues are diligently to be admonished , to flie carnal securitie , to be ware of Sathans assaults , and to be in continual care . And yet this hind●eth not , but that they are in the meane while most certaine of their saluation . For although Paul ( Act. 27 ) sayling , did not doubt a whit whether he should come safe to land , yet he let passe nothing , which it behooued a man carefull of his safetie , to care for and to do . certaine that wee shall one day bee there , wee seeme now after a sort to liue and conuerse in heauen . But all these things would be fading and light , if saith could not perseuere . Therefore o o DVR Will you say that the Apostle speaketh in the person of all t●e elect . WHIT. pag. 629. The Apostle proueth it , speaking ●n their person ; what shall separate vs ( not me only ) from the loue of Christ . And againe , I am perswaded that nothing shall separate vs ( not me only ) from the loue of God which is in Christ Iesus . Therefore he speaketh of all those who are predestinated . Paul had a most certaine perswasion , that neither life nor death , nor things present , nor things to come , nor any other creature can seperate vs from the loue of God which is in Christ Iesus . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Rom. 8.38 . But such as doe not perseuere , they may be separated : but these cannot bee separated , therefore they perseuere . And for this cause the pledge of our adoption , euen the holy Ghost himselfe is giuen to vs , who assureth vs most certainely that we are the sonnes of God , so as now we do not doubt to call God Father . Cal. 4.6 . But how dare such a one call him Father , who thinketh that he may be sometime not his sonne ? for the Saints may professe with the Apostle , 1. Ioh. 3.2 . we know that we shall bee like him . Knowledge is certaine , & consisteth on assured principles : to doubt is the property of opinion , not of knowledge . Heare Cyprian : Cyprian . de mortal . Let such a man feare to die , who not being borne againe of water and the spirit , is thrall to the fire . Let him feare to die , that thinketh not hee hath his part in Christs Crosse and Passion . Chrysost. cap. 5. ad Rom. Chrysostome vpon these words of the Apostle , Into this grace wherein we stand , writeth thus : The grace of God hath no end , it knoweth no full point , but it maketh progresse vnto greater . And anone after , saith he , we must be fully assured not only of things giuen , but also of things to be giuen as well as of things giuen alreadie . And Augustine : August . in Psal. 88. because therefore ( saith he ) the promise is firme not according to our merits , but according to his mercy , no man ought with fearefulnes to preach ( the kingdome of Christ in his Saints ) whereof he ought not to doubt . But Augustine is wholy ours . For as you did lately conclude , that Augustine did allow free will , because hee wrote three bookes of free will , so may I reason after the same manner , that Augustine did thinke of perseuerance , as we do , because he wrote one booke of the good of perseuerance . To this I will ioyne Bernard , whose golden words these be , Bernard . in Can. Ser. 61. My conscience is troubled , but it is not ouer troubled , because I will remember the wounds of the Lord . But I will alleadge no more testimonies . Faith is either perpetuall , or else it is none at all : either it perseuers to the last breath , ot else that which is esteemed for faith , is but some fancie .

As for that , that you alleage touching Luther , who you say affirmeth , that a Christian though he will cannot lose his saluation , vnlesse hee will not beleeue , this Luther neuer affirmed , either in that booke or any where els . For if you shall turne ouer all Luthers writings , which you haue not saluted , nor I beleeue , so much as seene , yet you can finde this sentence no where . The Fathers of Trent haue condemned this proposition and worthily : for it is impious , and to bee reckoned among the chiefest paradoxes . But whose soeuer it was , certainly it was not Luthers . But , say you , Luther wrote so in his booke of the captiuity of Babylon . That is false : yet he wrote some such thing . I will tell you what it is ; and that in a word . Luther reproueth the Papists , for that they thought that the grace of Baptisme is quite lost by sinne , and withall they brought in Penance a new Sacrament , which they terme a second boord , wherby the grace of Baptisme might be recouered . Therefore he denieth that the power and grace of Baptisme can so bee lost by sinnes , but that it may bee repaired by faith ; which thing he proueth by many and mighty reasons . In that therefore Luther taught , that the grace of Baptisme cannot be lost , vnlesse one will not beleeue ; and this the Fathers of Trent and our countriman Campian do so interprete , as if hee had said , that which these men obiect , that a Christian though he will cannot leese his saluation , vnlesse he will not beleeue . Why should I confute so vnsauoury an imagination with more words ?

You make hast to the Sacraments . Of the Sacraments . And I will pursue you as much hast as you make . Now here you cry on t most pittifully , O blessed Christ , they haue left neuer a Sacrament , not two , not one . Dare you appeale to Christ , whose Sacraments yee haue banished with great reproch out of the Church , that ye might bring in certaine impure Sacraments not worthy to be named ? we retaine those Sacraments which Christ hath commended to vs : if there had been need of more , he would haue left more . We haue two Sacraments , Baptisme , and the Lords Supper : these Christ did institute , p p DVR . Our seuen Sacraments stand vpon good ground and reason , & hath antiquitie for them . WHIT. pag. 643. You should then produce some antiquitie for the proofe of them ; but hauing none , why do you so brag of it . I wonder not at your silence , because I know that , that this number was neuer heard of before Hugo de Sancto Victore , and Peter Lombard brought them into the Church : and yet for them Lombard neuer gathered any testimony of auncient Fathers . Neither euer any Councell , before the Florentine Councell , did approue or establish this number . But your fiue bastard Sacraments , 1. Order . 2. Confirmation . 3. Extreame Vnction . 4. Penance . 5. Marriage . I proue thus to be no true Sacraments of Christs Church . 1. In euery Sacrament is necessarily required and element or visible matter . But that neither your Order , not Confirmation , nor Penance , nor Marriage haue , by any warrant of Scripture . 2. Those which are the proper Sacraments of the Church Christ did institute . But Christ instituted not any one of those fiue for Sacraments . 3. Sacraments belong to all Christians , But your Order , and Marriage pertaine to a few in comparison . 4. Seeing you faine that grace lye●h hid in the Sacraments , and is by them transmitted vnto men , proue vs which parts of these Sacraments do containe the grace inclosed . What answere soeuer you make you will be taken napping . Therefore these fiue bastard Sacraments , are no true Sacraments of Christs Church . these the auncient Church acknowledge , and with these the later Church ought to haue been contented . For that it is most euident , that for seuen Sacraments , for so many you hold , that not a footstep of antiquity can be found . O blessed Christ , they haue seuen Sacraments , & yet they haue no Sacrament , because they haue not thine . For those Sacraments which are not thine , are no Sacraments at all . Their bread , say you , is poison , and what is our wine ? but the common people among you taste not of that at all : belike , lest they should thinke that you did drinke to them of a poison . Wee doe vse that bread and that wine in the Lords Supper , which Christ himselfe commanded to vse . That which hee deliuered , we haue receiued : that which he did , we do : in the bread and wine we celebrate the remembrance of our Redeemer . If those were wholesome , ours cannot bee deadly . Baptisme ( say you ) although it be as yet among them true , notwithstanding in their iudgement it is nothing . You your self confesse that our Baptisme is true● I take it for granted . But why is it true ? because wee baptize so , as Christ hath commanded vs . We keepe the law of Christ , we throw your , I know not q q DVR . What is that you call trash ? which of the auncient Fathers haue been . who haue not made mention of our ceremonies . WHIT. pag. 658. Christ commaunded nothing to the Church touching these trifles ; & though we reade often of Baptisme in the word , & of many , yet there is no word touching any of these Shall we then thinke that the Church in later times hath knowne better , what ceremonies were fitter for the Sacrament then Christ and his Apostles ? where did euer any of them vse salt , spittle , candles , &c. in this Sacrament . what , trash away ; the like haue we done in the other Sacrament , not haue wee departed a nailes bredth from Christs precept . If ours be true Baptisme , then is out r r DVR . When bread and wine is your Eucharist ( neither doe you beleeue Christ gaue any other thing in the Supper ) wee leaue you your Eucharist also . WHIT. pag. 660. If wee haue true Baptisme ; why not the Eucharist ? wee follow Christs commandement in both . Further you falsely accuse vs , who thinke bread & wine to be but one part of the Sacrament , as Ireneus and antiquity hath done ; & Christ his body and blood the other . But you haue no Eucharist at all , who professe you haue neither bread nor wine . Eucharist true also . But in their iudgement ( say you ) it is nothing . Why so ? It is not the water of saluation , it is not the conduit of grace , it doth not deriue the merits of Christ into vt ; but only it is a signification of saluation . All these things are feined & false . For we preach it to be the sauing water , and a s s DVR But Caluin denieth all this , making it only a signe and seale , by which we are assured of the grace best●●ed vpon vs . WHIT. pag. 663. Doth it follow hence that grace and remission of sinne is not giuen vnto vs in Baptisme ? As if by the seale of the Kings Charter some thing is not both giuen vnto vs , and confirmed ? And in Baptisme this confirmation is but a more bountifull donation . chanell of grace , and we doubt not but it deriueth Christs merits into vs . For it doth not only signifie saluation , but also it performeth & bringeth it indeed to them that vse Baptisme aright and holily . For in Baptisme we receiue forgiuene ▪ of our sinnes , we are accepted into the familie of Christ , we are endowed with the holy Ghost , we are raised vp to a most certaine hope of euerlasting life . Are these matters of nothing to you , Campian ? shall this Baptisme be nothing , wherin we obteine so many and so great good things ? but what manner of thing is your Baptisme : or what hath it more , which ours ought to haue ? hath it grace ? or the merits of Christ ? or saluation ? Ours also hath these things ; what then is wanting in it , why it should not be true both in ours and others iudgement ? I know your meaning . It conueigheth not grace by the worke wrought . This indeed is a magicall and pestilent deuice , that you should thinke t t DVR . We thinke not so , but that it is in it , as in an instrument . And so hath Thomas taught . WHIT. pag. 664. Then you reiect and condemne all your old Sophisters , who haue taught that grace is included in the Sacrament , as health is in a medicine or salue . For as that doth cure the disease whether he beleeue or no that is sicke , only if he take it : so the Sacrament doth giue grace without any faith or good motion of the receiuer , so he hath no mortall sinne to hinder it . grace to be inclosed in the water it selfe , as it were in a pipe , which sheadeth it self forth into all men , though quite void of faith . For what auaileth the Sacrament without faith , but to his perdition who receiueth the Sacrament : that monster I doe abhorre and detest with mine whole hart . You adde , therfore they haue made no more reckoning of the Baptisme of Christ , then of Iohns , that is , a meere ceremonie . I am not ignorant what the Fathers thought of the Baptisme of Iohn . But I heed what the Scriptures teacheth , not what they imagined . In them both there was the u u DVR . But Matth. 3.11 . Iohn baptised with water only , Christ with the Spirit . WHIT. pag. 669. Here is no comparison betweene the Baptisme , but the persons : for not Iohn only , but not Peter nor any Minister of the Gospel , can giue the holy Ghost to those whom they doe baptise . Men giue but the outward signe , it is Christ who giueth the Spirit . DVR . Why were they Act. 19 4.5 . baptised againe whom Iohn had baptised , if it be the same Baptisme . WHIT. pag. 671. They were not rebaptised , as Ambr●se saith , de Spirit . Sanct. lib. 1. cap. 3. And the 5. vers. being S. Paule● words , they are to be vnderstood not of those Ephesians , but of the people whom John baptised . As if S. Paul had said . John taught those who came to his Baptisme to beleeue in Christ who was to come : and they when they heard it , were baptised in the name of the ●ord Iesus . From this then can be gathered no differenc● of thes● two Baptismes . same ceremonie , the same doctrine , and the same grace . If there were any thing vnlike in these things , I refuse not to confesse , that the Baptisme of Iohn and Christ were diuers . Now Iohn ioyned repentance , Mat. 3 . 2.1● Luk. 3.3 . which is the fruit of true regeneration , with his Baptisme , and off●ed this Baptisme for the remission of sinnes . If the Baptisme of Iohn wanted not repentance and remission of sinnes , I see not why it should bee held so much different from the Baptisme of Christ . And what is the cause , * * DVR . Because that Baptisme did prepare men to regeneration , of which preparation Christ had no need . WHIT. pag. 673. This is but your coyned distinction , for the Fathers speake and answere otherwise . Chrys●st . in 3. Matth. not that he should receiue remission of sinne by ●aptisme , but that be might leaue sa●ctified waters for those who should after be baptised . And August . in cat . ●ur . in 3. Matth. Our Sauiour would therefore be baptised , not that Bee might bee sanctified , but that he might sanctifie the waters for vs . why the Fathers demand , wherfore Christ , who needed no regeneration , did come to the Baptisme of Iohn , but because they iudged that his Baptisme had the power of regeneration ?

Concerning that which you annexe : If you haue it , it is well : if you want it , there is no hurt : beleeue , and you shall be saued before you bee baptised ; wee doe not speake so loosely , as you imagine . For wee will not haue it to be in any ones choice , to be baptised if hee will , and to leaue it if hee will not . Yet wee doe not thinke that Baptisme is so x x DVR . What ? If without Baptisme infants may obtaine eternall life , is it not your iudgements , that it is no hurt to them though they want Baptisme ? But Christ thought farre ●therwise . Ioh. 3.5 . WHIT. pag. 675. It is a wicked and batbarou● opinion to thinke that they who die before they can come to Baptisme , are damned . For who will say , that the infants of the Iewes , who died before the eight day did p●rish ? And when in former ages they deferred Baptisme till the houre of death , did they think it so absolute necessary ? Will you say that an infant is not of the number of the elect , because God wil that he die before Baptisme ? if you will , you shall be accounted bold , rash , and impious . As for the place of Iohn . Christ doth not thinke that none can come into heauen , which wanteth the outward Baptisme . The theefe was with Christ in Paradise , and yet was vnbaptised with the outward Baptisme . But the truth is , by water Christ meaneth there the Spirit , as appeareth by conference of places . Matth. 3.11 . As there fire , so here water signifieth the power of the Spirit : & Ioh. 4.10 . simplie necessarie to saluation , that he that is not entred by Baptisme , must needs perish euerlastingly . For the saluation of a Christian man consisteth in the mercie of God , which is not so tyed & bound to any Sacraments , y y DVR . God hath shewed his will , Ioh. 3.5 . And ●hen S. Paul makes all by nature the Children of wrath : Ephes. 2.3 . If there be no remedie against this euill in the Scripture , but Baptisme , what can be , but that they who die without Baptisme , must needs die in the same condition ? WHIT. 677. God in no place hath shewed this to bee his will ; that they who die without Baptisme , shall perish . Of the words of Christ haue ●in spoken , which if they be vnderstood of Baptisme , they belong only to those who are of growne yeares . That by no other meanes we can be freed from the miserable state of nature , but by Baptisme , is very false . For the Spirit of God doth in and without the Sacrament , doth communicate his graces . as that he cannot saue those , whom he will not haue perish , without them . Where the opportunity of Baptisme is not , Gods promise alone is abundantly sufficient of it selfe . But whosoeuer either neglecteth Baptisme through heedlesnes , or boldly contemneth it , him we condemne of very hainous sin . For he doth both diminish the Maiestie of Christ , and also refuseth his owne saluation . But he that committeth neither , shal not answere for the fault of another . Therefore verie right was that iudgement of Bernard , z z DVR . He speaketh not of infants , but of those who indued with true faith , were preuented by an vntimely death that they could not be baptised . WHIT. pag. 680. How truly you speake we may iudge out of the same Epistle . For he thus writeth . Who is ignorant that in former times they had other remedies against originall sinne ; besides Baptisme ? for to Abraham and his seed vt as the Sacrament of Circumcision giuen to this end . But in other nations , so many as were found faithfull , wee beleeue that they , who were of yeares , were sanctified by faith and sacrifices : but the parents faith did profit their infants , yea and was sufficient for them . If this was so before Christ , shall we thinke the condition of infants is now worse ? not the want , but the contempt of Baptisme is damnable . Bernard . in Epist. ad Hugon .

In the rest that follow , as being small matters , you doe but trifle . For neither doe you your selfe declare any thing of your owne opinions , nor can you reproue any thing in ours . But I long to know , what you thinke of the faith of Infants . I suppose , you wil grant that they haue grace ? For ( say you ) Baptisme conferreth grace . But will you not yeeld that they haue faith ? I wish therefore you would teach me , to the end you may draw me wholy into your opinion , how there can be any grace more ancient than faith . But ( say you ) how can they beleeue , who doe not yet vnderstand whether they liue or no ? and do they therfore not liue , because they vnderstand not that they liue ? It is absurd . Wherefore if they liue , although they doe not vnderstand they do so : a a DVR . But speake plainly ; if Infants haue no faith , your new Euangelicall doctrine , teaching that the force of the Sacrament doth depend vpon the faith of the receiuers , must vanish . WHIT. pag. 681. I do no : thinke that Infants do beleeue , there being neither reason nor Scripture for it . And I answere that is not our doctrine you faine to bee . Wee say , that to men of yeares without saith it is a Sacrament , but not a sauing Sacrament : to children of beleeuing patents , though they cannot for their yeares beleeue , yet it is a sauing Sacrament , as Circumcision was to the Infants of the Iewes . For wee doubt not but the Spirit of God is powerfull vnto them after a hidden and wonderfull manner . As in the examples of Iacob , Ieremie , Iohn Baptist , and others . happily also they doe beleeue , albeit they perceiue not that they beleeue . That is hard ( say you : ) bee it so . Nor doe I speake these things , as if I were wholy of that mind , but to the end I may fish out your mind , which our Vniuersity m●n doubtles make great account of . But let vs heare Luthers medicine : It is better ( saith he ) to omit it , because except the Infant beleeue , he is washed ●e●er a whit . But this medicine came out of your shop , not out of Luthers . And indeed you haue offred vs many such like medicines , very vnsauourie , and ill fauouredly seasoned : so that all your confections seeme to be corrupt . But Luther did neuer perswade that Baptisme should be omitted ; & he was alwaies earnest on that part , that Baptisme should be giuen to Infants : and therefore you are so much the more vniust in this place , in that you would marre Luthers opinion with your medley . For these things are so alledged by you , as if Luther said , it were better to omit Baptisme . Therfore let vs heare Luther himself , and let Campians medicine alone . And yet ( saith he ) we deny not that Infants are to be baptised , Luther . aduers . Coc●laeum . nor do we anow that they receiue Baptisme without faith : but wee say , that at Baptisme they do beleeue by the power of the Word . He addeth : Or otherwise there would bee meere and intolerable lies , when the Baptiser demandeth of the Infant whether he do beleeue : as intending not to baptise , vnlesse it be answered in the child● stead , I beleeue . Wherfore doth the Minister aske whether he do beleeue , if i● be a certaine thing that they do not beleeue , as Cocleus maintaineth ? Then he concludeth thus : But we hold that Infants are not to be Baptised , ●f it be true that they in Baptisme do not beleeue . Luther then maintaineth and determineth , that little children do beleeue , and he reproueth the Papists , because they teach things contrary each to other , while they deny that an Infant hath faith and yet , to the end he may be baptised , they require faith of him . Who seeth not to what these things may be referred , so that hee must needs bee a most malicious man , who maketh Luther in these words a perswader of so wicked an opinion ?

And these things doe they speake ( say you ) being doub●full in their own mind , what to maintaine positiuely . Howsoeuer some doe doubt of the faith of infants , yet wee all determine cleerely and positiuely that they are to be baptised . Therfore there was no need that you should send for that Pacimentan● dayes-man , who was alwayes more enclining to your side than to ours . But why doe you obiect the Anabaptists to vs , who hate vs much more eagerly than you , and not without cause ? b b DVR . I know you doe fight hotly against the Anabaptists , but with what weapons ? Caluin was glad to flie to the Tradition of the Church : for be brought no place of Scripture against them , neither could be bring any . WHIT. pag. 685. You betray the Scriptures that you may establish Traditions . What can be spoken either more contumeliously against the Scriptures , or more for the aduantage of Anabaptists , then that this their heresie cannot be confuted by Scripture ? But are you ignorant that Caluin vsed Scripture to refell this ? And yet he produceth these places . Gen. 17.4 . Matth. 19.13 . & 28.19 . which sufficiently ouerthrow the Anabaptists . And in the place you alleadge , hee rather renounceth Traditions , then flieth to them for any defence . Jast . lib. 4 cap. 16. sect. 8. for we haue both conuicted them for heretikes by our arguments , and also haue expulsed them as seditious and pernicious men out of our Commonwealths , who if they dwelt not with you , could find no place to remaine in through the Christian world . You passe ouer the rest of the Sacraments , which I acknowledge to bee none at all : nor doe I vnderstand which is that beast of many heads , whereof you make mention , vnlesse perhaps you meane that threeheaded beast , of which Iohn writeth many things in the Reuelation .

Hitherto Campian , Of Manners . you haue examined certaine opinions and positions of our men : in all which you haue found as yet neuer a Paradoxe . For either the things that you obiect are such , as that nothing can be truer then they , or else they are craftily and treacherously wrested by you into a peruerse meaning . But now , as if you were some new Censurer , and Master of the auncient discipline and seuerity , you make search into our manners , not , I thinke , to make them better , but to make them seeme much worse than they be . Although he that reproueth the manners of other , it were meet that he should bee without fault . And is there so great a change made of Rome vpon the sodaine ? is their life now such ? are their manners begunne to bee so goodly , that you being returned thence a Frier dare striue with vs about vertue , shamefastnes , and hon●stie ? howsoeuer there be here many things done which ought not to be , yet if you shall say that there is as great impunity and licenciousnes of sinnes in England , as you your selfe haue seene at Rome , the very towre of your religion and kingdome , all men will iudge you to bee too too impudent . Wherefore then doe you propose to vs those peeces of faults in Luther , seeing among you not only some fragments of vices , but huge bodies of the greatest crimes are plainely seene ? surely as long as those publike stewes and dens of whoores stand still in Rome , you could scarce honestly make mention of manners . But what are these peeces of faults in Luther ? Is it for that you reproue some crime in his life ? but that you neither can do , nor go about to doe . You obiect certaine sayings caught out of his bookes , and as you are wont torne from the rest of the body of the sentence ; which seeme presently as soone as they bee propounded by you , to make shew of some filthines . About the most of which , seeing that you haue had an answere made you by him whom you name , Reuerend Charke , I maruell that you haue returned them to vs heere againe . There must needs be great lacke of true imputations , seeing that you haue no varietie at all of false ones . And seeing that my fellow souldier and companion in Christ William Charke did labour diligently in these things , those things which are largely enough confuted by him , shall bee run ouer now by mee briefely and shortly . It shall bee therefore enough for mee to cut in sunder these your peeces , which haue been before so broken in shiuers , as that they might seeme able to hurt none .

Wherefore now spue out these your morsels of reproches . And heare ye them : If the wife will not , or cannot , let the maid come . A filthie and vncleanely speech as it seemeth . Luther wrote a little booke of marriage , in the second part whereof hee remembers three causes , whereby hee thinketh marriage may be dissolued . The first is Impotencie : another is , Adultrie : the third is , Desertion . Now hee expoundes that to be desertion , when as the wilful and obstinate wise can by no meanes bee perswaded to performe the office of due benouelence to the husband , for there are some such froward wiues found , that although the husband doe fall ten times into whordome , yet they regard it neuer a whit . Wherefore Luther thinketh it fit for the husband , to fray his wife with words , and to threaten hir on this manner : If you will not , another will : If the mistrisse will not , let the maide come . With whom if threats preuaile not , let him conuent her before others , and bring the matter to the Church . But now if she be neither moued with priuate threatnings , nor by the publike reproofes of the Church , then , saith Luther , diuorce her and take Ester into Vashties place . Only to propound these things in this manner , is a very euident confutation of Campians reproch . For who doth not marke what counsaile Luther gaue to the husband ? not that he should presently take his mayd , but that he should propose threats of diuorce to his obstinate wife , and breake her stomacke by that meane ? Now as for this opinion of Luther about this kind of diuorce , though I doe not defend , yet you cannot accuse it . c c DVR . You are ignorant that with vs only adultery is the cause of diuorce . WHIT. pag. 688. Nay you are ignorant of your owne Canons , for to omit others , see what the Tridentine Fathers decreed . If any shall say that the Church doth erre when shee decreeth that for many causes diuo●ce from b●dde and cobabitation , may be had either for a certaine or vnlimited time , let him be accursed . Do not you now differ from your owne Councell , as also from the Apostle ? For among you there be infinite causes of diuorce , so as in so great liberty of diuorce , it is maruaile that any marriage stood in force . If Luther had at any time written any such thing , as wee reade was written by Clement , whom you brag to haue beene Pope of Rome , what tragedies would yee haue raised ? Heare Campian , & I would haue you marke whereto this speech tendeth : d d DVR . If you had seene some old copies , or waighed the scope of the Epistle , you might easilie haue seene that the place is corrupted . WHIT. pag. 689. I can be content you should defend Clement , for I easily thinke that Clement would neuer speake so dishonestly . But when you father Epistles vpon auncient Bishops , such as they neuer writ , God would shew your perfidie by manifest demonstrations For copies we haue none whether old or new but from you ; and many I haue seene , and they all haue it . Yet remember that you here confesse the Popes decretall Epistles to bee corrupted ( why 〈◊〉 forged ? ) which other where you peremp●orily deny . The common vse of all things , Clement . Epist. 5. that are in this world , ought to be to all men . But through mens naughtines one said that this was his , and another that ; and so there is a diuision made betweene mortall men . Finally one of the wise men of the Grecians , knowing this to bee so , saith , that all things among friends ought to be common . Now among al things , without doubt are husbands and wiues . You may think you heare some Plato discoursing of the communitie of things : alleadge some like place of Luthers . What then followeth after in those patches of yours ? For because the carnall knowledge of the wife is as necessarie to euery one , as meate , and drinke , and sleepe are . e e DVR . Tertul . de Monog . Hieron . lib. 1. contra Iouinian . vnderstand it only of those who are married , that they might lawfully keepe and haue their wiues still . WHIT pag. 690. That which Tertullian writ for the heretike Montanus , that you greatly approue of . And hee that knoweth not Hierome to bee further carried in the contempt of marriages , then the Scriptures do allow of , he accounteth the authoritie of Hieromes writings more then of the Word of God . But the Apostle reiecteth this interpretation , for when he commandeth that euery man should haue his wife to auoid fo●nication ; who seeth not that this law concerneth the vnma●ried , who are forbidden fornication as well as the married ? And after in the 9. vers he speaketh to the vnmarried ▪ If they cannot absteine , let them mar●●● : for it is better to marrie then to burne . Therefore hee doth not onli● commaund that they who haue wiues keepe them still ; but that they wh●● haue not , should marrie , if they found it necessarie for them to auoid inconti●●●cie . The Apostle commandeth , 1 Cor. 7.2.9 that euery one for the au●iding of fornication , haue his wife , and euery woman her owne husband : and that they that cannot conteine , should marrie . They therefore who haue it not giuen to them by God , as that they can alwaies be without wiues ; to such it is necessary that they marry wiues if they will bee honest and chaste . For I confesse that marriage is not necessarie for them who may wallow without punishment in all manner of vncleannesse and lust . But goe forward : Marriage is much better than Virginitie , and against this , Christ and Saint Paul perswaded Christian men . The same things doe not agree to all men : and that which is most profitable to some one , may be contrarie to the inclinations of others . Virginitie is one of those indifferent things , which are as they are vsed : for it is not simply good ( for then it were vnlawfull at all to thinke of marriage ) but after a sort . f f DVR . What is this else but euen the same that Iouinian ans●vered vnto Hierome & the rest of the auncient Fathers ? As Augustine sheweth De. Sancta Virginitate cap. 21.22.23.24 . WHIT. pag. 691. Whosoeuer will be single for this only end that he may liue so much the more 〈◊〉 ●ase and in the more pleasure , and not be troubled with the necessary cares of marriage , do deserue to be blamed with Iouinian . And this sort of men it is that Augustine doth iustly reproue . For virginitie is to be desired , not simplie for that end that we may ●idde and free our selues from the necessarie businesse and cares accompanying marriage , but to the end we may with sitter opportunitie and more conueniencie serue God , as also the Apostle ●peaketh ; That you may so ●●w that which is honest , and that you may cleaue fast vnto the Lord without separation . 1. Co. 7.35 . 〈◊〉 DVR . Who seeth not that that is more excellent in it selfe , which is more difficult and hard ? And Christ saith , that after this life there is no marrying at all . And S. Paul , He that giueth his virgin to marriage , doth well : but hee that giueth her not to marriage doth better . 1. Cor. 7.38 . WHIT. pag 69● . I do not dispute against holy virginity , which I acknowledge is both hard & excellent . But single life must be distinguished from holy virginity . Very few attaine this of that euery one may make choise of . But your reason is of no great force , for the hardest things are not the most excellent . It is most hard for a man to liue an hundred yeares : shal we therfore thinke that they who liue so long , are more excellent then others ? As for that in the kingdome of heauen there are no marriages , it is not of force against vs : for we speak of the state of this life , after which , as there shall be no marriages , so no vowes of virginitie . In S. Paul , better , is as much as si●●es and more commodious : for if it were su●plie better , it were neuer lawfull to do otherwise ; which he alloweth . Therefore he thus spake not for the nature of the thing , but in respect of circumstances : as you may see , vers. 26.28.32.35 . Thus therefore stands the matter : they that can preserue their chastitie in Virginitie , they may be desirous of Virginitie , and yet not absolutely , but by reason of the troubles which for the most part accompanie marriage : but they that cannot liue chast , such must betake them to marriage , and that so as that if they doe otherwise , they infolde themselues in great sinne . So that Virginitie is neuer , saue onely in some respect better than marriage , but g marriage oftentimes is absolutely better than virginitie . Surely we doe thinke honourably of both these estates of life : but among you virginitie is aduaunced , but marriage basely esteemed . Basil holdeth rightly , Let virginity be honored , let not marriage be despised . I had rather you should approue virginitie by your deeds , than praise it with your words . Hieron . ad Furiam . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Why doth the tongue sound out chastity , and the whole bodie shew forth vncleannes ? For so do ye . Euen as Epiphanius writeth of the Origenists . You refuse marriages , but not lust : it is not holinesse , but hypocrisie that is in honour among you . For neither did Christ nor Paul enioyne virginitie to any one that had not power to receiue it . For ( saith Bernard ) virginitie is not commaunded , Bernard . de Virgin ser. 21. 1. Cor. 7.9 . but aduised . Nay , they that cannot conteine , are commaunded to marrie . Wherefore the Apostle was not onely of opinion that those ought not to keepe their virginitie , but also he disswaded them from it : nor would he haue disswaded them from it , if Christ had perswaded them to it . Neither are these positions proper to Luther : for all good men doe both acknowledge and defend them .

But let vs heare the rest : h h DVR . Doe you not thinke therefore that the diuell himselfe is neerest of all to grace ? WHIT. pag. 6●6 . It is diuellish so to dispute ; Luther meant nothing els , but to stay mens consciences afflicted and troubled with the greatnes of sin , and to comfort them with the mercie of God which , the greater sinner thou art , the greater is it on thee , when thou dost truly turne vnto the Lord , as the Apostle saith , where sinne abounded , grace abounded much more . Rom. 5.20 . The more wicked that thou art , ( saith he ) so much the neerer art thou vnto grace . The grace of Christ is sufficient not onely for small sinnes , but also for the greatest : nor are small offenders onely inuited by Christ to come to him , but they also that are laden with the burthen of their sinnes . Luther exhorts thee not to goe forward in sinne , but that thou shouldest not despaire of pardon . And certainely the i i DVR . Where learned you to call him a wicked man , that is truly penitent for his sins ? WHIT. pag. 697. Christ saith , Luk. 15.7 There shal be ioy in heauen ouer one sinner that repenteth . Aske now , who taught Christ to call him a sinner that repenteth him of his sinnes ; or why do you not quarrell with the Apostle , when he saith , God iustifieth the ungodly . Rom 4.5 ? For he that is vngodly is not iustified . more wicked that thou hast been in thy life by-past , so much the more aboundant grace shall imbrace thee , if thou be truely penitent for thy sinnes . Rom. 5.20 . For where sinne hath abounded , grace hath ouerabounded . If you condemne Luther , who will thinke that you let Paul passe free ? For you haue the same action against both , sith they be of one and the same iudgement . What followeth ? All good actions be sinnes ; of God be seuere in iudgement , they are damnable sinnes ; if hee bee fauourable , they be but small ones , k k DVR . The Apostle S. Paul then said not truly ; If thou take a wife thou sinnest not . 1 Cor. 7. Then S. Peter said not truly , 2. Pet. 1.10 . For if yee do these things , yee shall neuer fall . Neither said Sa●nt Iohn truly , 1. Ioh 3.8 . For this purpose the Sonne of God appeared , that heo might loose the workes of the Diuell . Neither did S. Paul well to compare good workes to siluer , gold , and precious stones . 1. Cor. 3.12 . Neither did the Prophets and Apostle● well to exhort vs to good works . And if all our actions ( though good ) be sinne , doe not you your selues sinne whilest you beleeue to be iustified by faith ? For faith is a worke , seeing Christ saith , This is the worke of God , that you beleeue . WHIT. pag. 698. That euen our good actions are tainted with some sinne , no man can doubt , that either knoweth the Scriptures , or himself . As Isay saith 64.10 . Now it euen al our righteous actions be like vnto a stincking & filthie clout , they are surely tainted with some sin . The Prophet Dauid prayeth Psal. 143.2 . Wherefore no worke , ( though good ) can deliuer vs from the iust iudgement of God . And this is that which the Apostle Paul speaketh Gal. 5.17 . and Rom. 7.21 . also Job 9.2 . Vpon which place Gregorie Moral . lib. 9. cap. 1. thus writeth . The holy man because he seeth , that euen all the merit of our very vertue is sinne , if by an inward iudgement it be rightly iudged of , doth well adde &c. Heere Gregorie calleth the merits of our vertue , that is , our very best workes , sinnes . And againe the same Gregorie cap. 14. As we haue often said , all humane righteousnes is conuinced to be v●righteousnes , if it be rightly iudged of . Now he that calleth our rigeteousnes vnrighteousnes , what saith he else , then that which Luther said , That there is some sinne in euery good worke ? This Paradoxe therefore Luther learned our of the Scriptures and auncient Fathers . But to come to your slender reasons . If thou take a wife , thou sinnest not . I answere heere is a fallacie . For we say not to marrie a wise is sinne , but that they who marrie wiues intermixe some sinne in that good action . And to the place of S. Peter . I say that there you vse also a fallacy : for to fall , in that place signifieth to fall away wholy and altogether from grace and saluation . For the place of S. Iohn , we meane not that good workes are sinnes , but that they haue some sinne mixed with them . For it followeth not that siluer is drosse , because it hath some drosse mingled with it . And Christ came not to the end there should be no sinne left in his Saints whilest they liue here , but that he might take away the guilt of sinne . And what if S. Paul hath compared our good workes to siluer , gold , or precious stones ? Know you not that euen in the best mettals , and in such stones there may some drosse be found ? But the Apostle compareth sound doctrine to these things ; than which there is nothing more precious if it be kept pure and incorrupted . The Prophets and Apostles do well to exhort vs to doe good workes : but if they bid vs do our duty , doth it therefore follow , that wee may not commit some sinne in doing thereof ? Last of all touching your demaund concerning faith , you bewray your ignorance ; for we are not iustified by faith , as it is a worke or action of ours , for it is imperfect : but because it is as the hand wherby we lay hold on Christ , and Christ calleth faith a worke either by imitation , or because it is the worke of the holy Ghost that kindleth it in our hearts . Luther said this , and hee saide it truely . For in euery action of a man , l l DVR . Therefore no action can euer be either excellent or good . Well said Dionysius , That that which is good , must n●edes come of a cause perfectly good . WHIT. pag. 701. Is there any so dull , as to say that there is no health not soundnes in the body at all , because there is onlie some thing in the body not so sound as it should be ? As for Dionysius , he speaketh of that entire and perfect good which we neuer attaine to in this life . For as long as the flesh lusteth against the spirit , there can be no such entire good in vs , proceeding from entire and perfect causes . though neuer so excellent , there is some fault , which may wholy marre the action , and make it odious to God , if that which is done bee weighed in the ballance of diuine iustice . But after that the Lord hath receiued vs wholy to fauour in Christ , those things which are but begun in vs , & besprinkled with some blots , m m DVR . What a monstrous speech is this ? Is it possible that euen sinnes should please God ? WHIT. pag. 702. Can you put no difference betweene the corruption of the action , and the action it selfe ? A good father loueth the obedience and dutie of his sonne , which he knoweth neuerthelesse is not such as it ought to be , and how much more doth God accept the slender and weake endeuours of his children ? yet they please him as if they were entire and pure , because he looketh vpon our persons , and he doth not make search into the worth and merit of the worke . These things spake Luther and confirmed them by the sentences of sacred Scriptures and holy Fathers : which you could much more easilie passe by than confute . Goe forward . No man of himselfe thinketh euill . This is maliciously obiected , as are all the rest . God doth throw into no man an euill thought , he compelleth the will of none to sinne : yet nothing is done by chaunce or fortune : and in the very sinnes of men the prouidence of God ruleth . Those thoughts of men which are euill , spring out of a certaine inbred naughtines proper to euery one : and yet the Lord can applie them to his owne will . For so Ioseph answereth his brethren : Ye thought euill against me , but the Lord turned it to good . Gen. 50.20 .

Now you adde : n n DVR . Then why answered Christ the yong man in the Gospell with this , keepe the Commandements ? And how doe theeues and adulterers sinne ? or how is it a sinne now to omit the duties of the morall Law , more then to omit offering vp of sacrifices ? WHIT. pag. 703. That which Christ answered to the yong man Matth. 19.17 . may well bee said vnto you . For you seeke righteousnes by the Law : wherefore keepe the Law if you will enter into life . But here you shall find no way to enter . Luther nor any of vs , euer denied that the Law pertaineth vnto Christians . For the righteousnes of the Law is eternall , and euery man ought with all endeuour to frame his life according to the same . But it is one thing to bee bound by the Law , and another thing to conforme and fr●me our liues by the rule of the Law. Wherfore theeues do sinne , and are iustly punished ; and much more they that establish the ceremonies of Moses Law , which are wholy abrogated . The decalogue belongeth not to Christians . God doth not care for our workes . Touching the decalogue and workes , this answere I make you briefely . In the law the olde couenant is contained ; Doe this and liue : Gal. 3.10 . Deut. 27.26 o o DVR Moses denounceth not the cursse against the breaches of euery small precept , but to those only , which he there reckoneth vp : which were certainly very haynous sinnes . WHIT. pag. 708. If that curse be only proper to those , who are guilty of the sinnes there numbred and set downe , what shall we then thinke of blasphemers , adulterers , and of other horrible malefactors ? are they free from this cursse ? if this be impious and absurde , then must it be vnderstood of all , euen as many as do transgresse the Law. And so S. Paul interpreteth the place , who vndoubtedly vnderstood the meaning of Moses better then all Iesuites . For he instructing the Galathians , as concerning the iustice of the Law , proueth by this testimonie , Gal. 3.10 . that none can be iustified by the works of the Law , but he that continueth in all things . Either then deny that any law was written touching small offences , or else confesse that that cursse belongeth to the least offences . If the Apostle had vnderstood it as you doe , the Galathians might haue answered him , that they were free from those great sinnes , and so from the cursse , and therefore might well hope to be iustified by the Law. Finally if Gal. 3.13 . Christ hath freed vs from the cursse of the Law , shall we thinke that this is only , from the cursse due to a few grieuous sinners ? I hope by this time , you see the error of your interpretation , which you haue sucked from your corrupt maisters . Cursed is euery one that continueth not in all things which are written in the booke of the law to do them . The law promiseth life to them , which obey the Law in all things : they that offend in any thing , to them it threatneth death and damnation . p p DVR . Yet Christ Math. 11.30 . saith , My youke is easie and my burden light . And S. Iohn . 1. Epist. 2.4 . Ho that saith , I know him and keepeth not his Commandements , is alayr . WHIT. pag. 705. S. Ioh. 1. Epist. 5.3.4 . expoundeth the speech of Christ , His Commandements are not grieuous : For all that is borne of God , ouercommeth the world : and this is the victorie that ouercommeth the world , euen our faith . This yoke then to those who haue faith seameth not grieuous , because they are inflamed with the loue of Gods Law , neither feare they the curse of it because they are ingrafted by faith into Christans for the place of S. Iohn , I answere ; they are said to keepe the Commandement● , who do their best enendeuour to keepe them . If any do thinke that he so keepeth them , that hee is without all sinne , that is , that he perfectly keepeth them , S. Iohn calleth him a lyar , 1. Ioh. 1.8 . An hard condition , and which no man can euer satisfie . Christ doth propose to vs another condition much easier : Mar. 16.16 . Beleeue and thou shalt bee saued . By this new Couenant the old q q DVR . If it be abrogated , how are we not freed from the obedience of it ? If God require only that you beleeue ; then by beleeuing you fulfill the Law , and so haue not only an imputed , but an inherent righteousnes . WHIT. pag. 614. I say not , that the Law is simplie abolished , but in some respect . Therefore it will not follow that we are freed from the obedience of it . Againe , wee say not , that faith fulfilleth the Law , as if it did performe perfect obedience to it , but because it layeth hold on Christ , who is the end and perfection of the Law , and on his righteousnes . Therefore is it not an inherent , but an imputatiue iustice . is abrogated ; so as whosoeuer beleeueth the Gospell , is freed from the condition of the Law . Gal. 5.18 . Rom. 6.14 . For they that r r DVR . Christ saith not as you write , but Hee that beleeueth and is baptised shall be saued , Now they who are baptised , haue receiued from God a good will to keepe the whole Law , which they determine afterwards by the grace of Christ to obserue . WHIT. pag. 715. The words of Christ confirme as ●●ch as I brought them for . For Baptisme is not a worke of the Law , but a wale of faith . And Christ sheweth that our saluation consisteth only in faith . And though the baptised frame theirliues according to the rule of the Law , and are endued with new wills and new strength , yet they do it not with that mind to iustifie themselues by their obedience before the Lord . Then should they lose the righteousnes of faith , which doth not consist in our merits and good workes , but is such as the Apostle describeth Rom. 4.5 . beleeue are not vnder the Law , but vnder grace . What needs many words ? s s DVR . This is your new Diuinitie , that wee should be freed from the cursse of the Law , which wee cannot fully obey , when as Christ at the last shall pronounce the cursse against those who haue not obered And Christ ( as S. Paul saith ) hath freed vs from the cursse , because by his death be ●ath deserued grace for vs , whereby we may keepe the Law. WHIT. pag. 713. This is your ignorance in Diuinity . For who is ignorant of that , which the Apostle affirmeth plainely , Gal. 3.13 . that Christ hath freed vs from the cursse of the Law ? Though then we cannot fully keepe the Law , yet being ingrafted into Christ , and he communicating his righteousnes vnto vs , wee escape the cursse of the Law. At the last day it is no maruell if Christ pronounce the cursse of the Law against the reprobates , who neuer were freed from the cursle . And if Christ by his death brought vs grace to keepe the Law , why might not the Galathians haue kept the Law , and obtained righteousnes by it ? But the Apostle sheweth them , that Christ tooke the cursle , because he tooke both the sinne and the punishment vpon him , & not that therby he procured them grace to fulfill the Law . Christians are deliuered from the curse of the law , but not from the obedience of it . As for our works , surely God regardeth them : and if they be good , he rewardeth them : if contrarie , he iudgeth them worthy of punishment : t t DVR . Jn those who are iustified , God much respecteth their workes , as in Abraham Iam 2.21 . and 1. Ioh. 3.7 . And in Phinehas , Psal. 106.31 . his worke imputed for righteousnes . WHIT. pag. 716. To the places of Saint Iames and Saint Iohn you haue been answered before . The fact of Phin●ha● proceeded from faith , and so the praise of it to bee giuen to faith , not to the worke . If you accounted of Th●mas , as you make shew of , your iudgment would bee sounder in these things . For thus he writeth on Galat. 3. Workes are not the cause that any one is iust before God . but they are aff●ctes and manifestations of righteousnes . Neither Luther , not any of vs say any more . but in iustifying of vs , God hath no respect to our works : u u DVR . The Prophet saith not that a man is iust , because be beleeneth , but that be who is iust , doth liue by his faith , that is , doth vphold himselfe by his faith , and sainteth not . It is as absurd to be iust by another mans iustice , as to liue by another mans life . WHIT. pag. 716. I could admit of your exposition , but that I am perswaded the Apostle vnderstood the Prophers mind beuer then you . For the Apostle hath vsed it to proue , that we are iustified by faith , and not by the workes of the Law : no not by those which are wrought after faith ; for thus he reasoneth , Gal. 3.11 . That 〈◊〉 man is iustified by the Law in the sight of God , it is euident , for the iust shall liue by faith . And the Law is not of faith . What hath he concluded but that you demy ? that is , that the Prophet hath said , that a man is iustified , because hee beleeueth . So Chrysast in Gal. 3. sheweth that saith iustifieth by the testi●●●nie of the Prophet Abakuk . Which if it were not , what concerneth it the Galathians , who were endued with faith , and ioyned their workes with their faith . If it be absurd to be iust by another mans righteousnes , I pray you tel me , how the Scripture calleth Christ both the cursse and sinne ? As for vs we had rather be absurd with the holy Ghost , then wise with you . for the iust shall liue , not by his works , but by his faith . Now goe on . * * DVR . Then where is your faith which assureth you of the remission of your sinnes , and quiteth all your troubled thoughts ? But holy men diligently prepared themselues , and so came to this Sacrament . hauing quiet minds , free from guilt of sinne . And in the Primitiue times they who had fallen , were not admitted to the Eucharist , but after confession & full satisfaction made for their sins . And then a Deacon was wont to crie . Holy things are for holy men . WHIT. pag. 718. You haue not tasted what true faith is , if you thinke all sorrowes & doubts are remoued , so soone as faith is begotten . The Prophet often remembreth his sorrowes , Psal. 42.5.6 . & 32.4 . And this all the faithfull haue experience of , and yet are vpheld by their faith . They are the best prepared who haue the greatest sorrowes for their sins , and in the word and Sacrament seeke a salue for them . For wherefore was the supper ordained , but to strengthen and confirme our faith . Therfore the best prepared haue many temptations and sorrowes in themselues . The custome of the Church proueth nothing against this . For will you account them wicked and prophane , whose consciences are frighted with the sense and bitter sorrowes for their sinnes ? So shall you wickedly condemne the most holie seruants of God . Only they do rightly receiue the Lords Supper , who bring sorrowful , afflicted , & confounded consciences . And so it is indeed , for they are no right receiuers , who trusting to their owne merits come audaciously , but they who heing opprested with the greatues of their sinnes , Psal. 51.19 . doe desire to bee eased . For they which are whole desire not the Physitian . A contrite and broken hart is an acceptable sacrifice to God . wherefore they which haue greatest feeling of their sinnes and sorrow for them , to them that heauenly food is wont to bee most wholesome . Good Lord , who would euer thinke it might come to passe , that anie Christian should dislike these things ! But is there any thing else ? x x DVR . Who knoweth not that the Nouatians were condemned of the whole Church for denying this authoritie to the Priests ? And that it was an old custome of the Church , as Tertullian hath it , that penitentials were sent to none but to the Priests : to whom , as Ambrole , Hierome , & Chrysostome writ , the keyes and power of binding and loosing are committed . WHIT. pag. 720. That you speake of the Nouatians and the custome of the Church toucheth not Luther , for they admitted neither repentance not confession in the Church : did Luther euer any such thing ? or did he euer reproue the custome of the Church , that they who had offended publikely , did publikely testiue their repentance . It was a priuate auricular confession of all sinnes which hee reproued , which is without testimonie either of Scripture of sincere Antiquitie : which made Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople put it out of the Church for the offence of a Deacon . For the Fathers by which you would establish your keyes , we haue against them Augustine in Ioan. tract. 124. and Theophil in Matth. 18. You may confesse you sinnes , but to any bodie , y y DVR . What is then more manifest then that hee may giue a Sacrament which neuer intended 〈◊〉 ? We beleeue that Priests as Iudges can absolue the guilty from their sins . WHIT pag. 722. When as faith dependeth vpon no mans will , and faith bringeth remission of sins , another mans will cannot hinder , but that they who beleeue , may haue the pardon of their sins For that to the Centurion , Mat. 8.13 . is to eu●ry man ▪ As thou beleeuest , so b●●t ●●to thee , & not as another wil. If absolution were then in the Ministers will , it should not be as men beleeue , but as their Minister thinketh : than which nothing can be more abs●●d . What skilleth it , whether the Minister be in ●est or earnest ? if I beleeue seriously his iest shall not hurt mee . And what is more mi●erable , then to ba●g the dignitie of the Sacrament vpon the thought and intention of the Minister ? which if it were true of Sacraments , yet what is that to absolution , which neuer was a Sacrament ? wheras you say you beleeue that the Pries●● do absolue men , as Iudges do , I do not find fault with it . And such ●u●ges are they , as Priests vnder the Law were of diseases . The chiefe Pr●●st iudged of the Leprosie , which he neither inflicted nor cured . So the Minister doth pronounce and iudge all beleeuers to be absolued , and the contrarie vpon the wicked and vnbeleeuers . who if he do absolue you but in iest , so as you beleeue , you are absolued . And why not ? for it is not need full , either to number sins by our fingers , or to vse a Priest or a Frier , such a one as your selfe . Iam. 1.16 . 1. Ioh. 1.9 . We may confesse our faults one to another , so as Friers may be idle hereafter . And whosoeuer beleeueth that his sinnes are forgiuen him , him saith it selfe absolues , whether he be absolued in iest or in earnest .

Well , make haste . To reade prayers by the houre , belongeth not to Priests , but to lay men . What your Priests do , or what they thinke they ought to do , it concernes me not . Let them reade , let them pray , let them say Masse , let them drinke , let them play , and in a word , let them be alwayes like themselues . It behoueth a Minister of the Gospell not to recite certaine Collects by an houre-glasse , and to make his walke in them certaine spaces of houres , but to giue daily diligence vnto reading , 1. Tim. 4.13 exhortation , and doctrine ; which things your Priests haue euer thought to be farre different from their office . But these same prayers by the houre albeit they do not ill agree to your sacrificing priests , who vnlesse they should spend the time on this fashion , would neuer goe out of Stewes and Tauernes , yet are they vnworthie of a Christian man , because of their infinite z z DVR . Js it superstition to sing Psalmes vnto God , to pray for remission of sinnes , and other temporall and spirituall graces , and to performe other exercises of religion ? who knoweth not , that Christians had their night Psalmes ? that the Hymnes of Ambrose were at set times . In the Acts we read , that Peter and Iohn went into the Temple at the ninth houre of prayer . WHIT. pag. 726. These things I reproued not as superstitious and impious , but that all the time , which should be bestowed in instructing the people , should be spent in saying their daily appointed houres , specially in that tongue which not the people , and often times not the Priest himselfe doth vnderstand . No man is ignorant that Christians had their night houres , but it was because they might not assemble themselues in the day time : will you keepe this custome , and not be accounted superstitious ? The Hymnes of Ambrose are full of piety , and sarre from superstitious chaunting As for the Apostles , they went not vp to sacrifice nor to keepe Canonicall houres , but to instruct the people who came thither to the euening sacrifice in great multitudes . superstition . Let vs heare the rest . Christians are free from the lawes of men . That neuer came into Luthers mind , to pluck in peeces the authority of the Magistrates , which he did alwaies defend most diligently against the Anabaptists . a a DVR . It they be bound to obey , how are their consciences free from the religion of them ? Jf was a humane law , Act. 15.20 . touching , strangled and blood . And Rom. 13.2.5 . and 1. Pet. 2.13.13 . WHIT. pag. 730. To the first I answere , that some things may be done , whereunto we are not bound in conscience : we must ●bey humane and politike lawes , because they are necessary for peace and publike tranquillitie . Yet we must distinguish humane lawes from Diuine . For the Lawes of God must simplie bee obeyed without any difference of time , place and circumstance : but the lawes of men as he circumstances require . For example , he that is a Romane and liueth at Rome must obey the Romane lawes ? If hee goe into Persia , he is not bound to keepe there the Romane lawea vpon any necessitie . Then they bind not the conscience , for then should they in all places bind alike . 2. That Law of the Apostles did not simplie binde the conscience , but in respect of the weake brother lest he should be offended : whom the law of God bindeth not to offend . Againe this was the law , not of men , but of the spirit of God . 3. For the places of S. Paul and S. Peter , I answere , the Apostles doth not insnare the conscience with euery particular precept of the Magistrate , but they speake of his authoritie , which is sacred and holy , and cannot with any good conscience bee contemned . It is the commandement of God , that we obey Magistrates , and this doth bind the conscience : in generall therefore he is to be obeyed for conscience sake ; but his particular lawes do not bind the conscience . Againe , when we obserue their particular lawes , wee doe not so stand vpon the precepts , as if doing of them would quiet the conscience and satisfie it : but wee looke to the end , that is , the will of God , which commandeth obedience to honest and iust lawes . Christians are free , not that they may obey no lawes , and liue only to themselues , but that they may vnderstand that their consciences and minds are freed from making the lawes of men to be religion . The Pope of Rome hath bound the consciences of Christian men with his Decrees and Canons , and thereby hath laid such a snare vpon their minds , as that they might thinke they are no lesse bound by the Popes Canons , then by Christs precepts . Therfore Luther freeth Christian liberty from those euill opinions wherein it had bene infolded , and bringeth it into that state in which Christ would haue it to be , that we should acknowledge him only to be the Lord of our conscience , and that we should obey the lawes of men with a free conscience . We are now at length come to the bottome of this puddle , which although you haue stirred with all your diligence , yet you haue not found so much as one paradoxe , or a peece of a paradoxe of ours . But now if I would but a little make search into the most filthy puddles of your writers , as to recken vp what they haue affirmed , of God , of the Prouidence of God , of Predestination , of the Person and Offices of Christ , of Originall sin , of the Law , of Righteousnes , of the Sacraments , of Purgatory , of the Pope of Rome , and of the rest of the greatest controuersies in Religion , how many Carts should I fill with paradoxes , horrible to be spoken , or thought ? But it is better not at this time to stirre this common Sewre : and otherwhere ( I hope ) occasion will be giuen to speake hereof . Now in that you would ioine the Lutherans and Zwinglians together , therein surely you haue not offended vs , for we both reuerence Luther as a father , and we embrace them as very deere brethren in Christ . And verily we hope it will come to passe , that this controuersie , which is betweene vs being compounded , we shall all with ioint minds and studies set vpon the common enemie . As for that you say touching your selfe , I am easily perswaded to thinke it to be true , whether it be that you speake it hartily or sainedly . For what ( I beseech you ) haue you alledged , for which wee should not rather thinke you to be some Rhetoricall Actor vpon a Stage , then a learned and experienced Diuine ? Campian , if you be wise , be quiet , for ( beleeue me ) you cannot indure the force and violence of this combate . Let those choise and old souldiers put themselues into the camp , who are , if not more bold to prouoke , yet more wary to auoid blowes , and much more skilfull in all discipline of warre . To enter combate with these , both the Vniuersities haue many worthie men , and I trust there will neuer want excellent Diuines to wage perpetuall warre with the broken bands of Antichrist .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The ninth Reason , which is the Aduersaries Sophismes .

IT is an auncient Prouerb , that a pore-blinde man may be a King amongst the blinde . Amongst the ignorant sort of people many times a coloured argument taketh place , the which the Philosophers schoole doth hisse at . The * * This is false : you can produce none of our sophismes : and those you speake of are yours , not ours Aduersarie herein much offendeth , but namely in foure kinds of fallaces he is well practised , which I had rather disclose in the Vniuersitie schooles , then in the common streets , whither only rude people do resort . The first fault is called Schiamachia , Schiamachia . which is a forcible striking of the ayer , and beating of shadowes on this sort , against those that are single and haue * * Those oathes and vowes are taken and made against the scriptures . sworne and solemnely vowed to liue in Chastity , because Marriage is good , but Virginitie is better . They bring scriptures that speake very * * Marriage is honorable in all conditions of men , therefore in Ministers . honorably of Matrimony : 1. Cor. 7. Whom do they pierce with their darts ? Against the * * All he can do are his duties , therefore there can be no merits . merits of a Christian man dipped in Christes bloud , without the which there is no merit at all . They recite testimonies , which commaund vs to put our affiance neither in nature nor in the lawe , but in the bloud of Christ ; whom do they confute ? Against those that honor Saints , as the most acceptable seruants of Christ , there are vouched whole pages of scripture , which prohibit the * * They who worship many Saints , worship many Gods . Papists worship many Saints ergo . worshipping of many gods ? Such Arguments as these , which I see swarme amongst the Aduersaries , cannot hurt vs , well may they be loathsome vnto you .

The second fault is Logomachia , Logomachia . which is a leaning of the matter it selfe , and contentiously to striue about a bare word . Find if thou canst ( say they ) this word Missa , 1. Masse , or Purgatorium . 1. Purgatorie in the scripture . What if I cannot ? Is there not a * * A most foolish and vniust comparison . Trinity , a consubstantiality , or the person of God to be proued out of the Bible , because these words Trinitas 1. a trinity , Homoousios , 1. of the same substance , Persona , 1. a person be not there found ? Of great alliance to this fault is Literarum aucupium , when neglecting the common vsage and true meaning of the speakers , which is the very life of the word , they cauill against the bare letters . For thus they argue : Presbyter 1. a Priest , is nothing else in Greeke but Senior , 1. an Elder . Sacramentum 1. a Sacrament , signifieth all kind of mysterie . But S. Thomas herein as in all other matters saith most wisely , that in words we must marke not so much from whence , as to what purpose they are spoken . The third fault is Homonymia , Homonymia . which they most commonly vse , as when they say to what purpose was the order of * * Heere is no Homonymy , for there are now no Priests in a Christian Church . Priesthood instituted , seeing that S. Iohn hath called vs all Priests ? Esay . 48. So hath he also added this , We are all Kings and shall raigne vpon the earth . Wherefore then were Kings ordained ? Againe , they say , the Prophet biddeth vs obserue a spirituall feast , that is , that we should refraine from our old sinnes : Farewell all * * Campian placeth fasting in the choise of meates , and obseruation of daies , which in meere Iudaisme . change of meates , and prescript times of fasting . Is the matter so indeed ? Then Moyses , Dauid , Helias , S. Iohn Baptist , and the Apostles were starke fooles , who ended their fasting from vsuall food after two dayes , three dayes , and certaine weekes , whereas their fast from sinne should haue endured so long as they liued . What this fallacy is you haue now seene , I hast forward . The fourth fault added to this , Circulatio . is Circulatio , a going about the bush in this manner : Tell me ( I say to one of them ) the true marks of the Church . He answereth the word of God , and the purest ministring of the Sacraments . Are these marks to be found amongst you , say I ? who doubteth of that , saith he ? I vtterly deny it . Then quoth he peruse the word of God . I * * If you had consulted with the word of God , you should easily haue perceiued that it was so : but you consult with the Church of Rome and not with the word . haue already perused it , and I thinke worse of your side then I did before . Tush , saith he for all that the matter is most plaine ; proue me that , say I : because ( saith he ) we swarue not a finger breadth from the word of God . Where is thy sharp wit thou braggest of ? Wilt thou still for thy proofe inferre that which is in controuersie ? How often haue I blamed thee for this . Wilt thou not awake out of thy dreames . Must thou haue a torch lighted that thou maist see to speake ? I tell thee once againe , that thou doest malitiously misconstrue the word of God . I haue for my witnesses fifteene hundred yeares . Stand to the iudgement , neither thine nor mine , but of these 1500. yeares . I will stand , saith he , to the iudgement of the word of God . Job . 3. The spirit doth breath where he listeth . Behold what roundabouts he fetcheth , what round rings he treadeth . I know not to whom this iester and coyner of so many waste words and foolish fallaces may be a terror ; troublesome peraduenture he will be : may it please your wisedomes to tollerate his troublesomnesse ; as for the feare , the cause it selfe hath alreadie quite taken away .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the ninth Reason , which is the Aduersaries Sophismes .

IT is a goodly thing that Sophisters complaine of fallacies , and that you , who your selues are altogether compact of fraud , lies , and impostures , do vpbraid vs with Sophistrie . All your Diuinitie , which ought to be honest and sincere without deceipt and fraud , hath of late degenerated into a subtle sleight of disputing like Schoole-boyes and Sophisters : for after that you had abandoned true Diuinitie out of the Churches , and as it were exiled the light from mens eyes , then you began at last to put forth curious questions in the Schooles ; and so , as pore blind men , to be admired of those who saw nothing . Hence arose that innumerable army of Sophisters , who confounded themselues with their refined idle disputes , as with mutuall wounds , in so much as who so could best skill of counterfet and captious trifling conclusions , he should be reputed as some King or petie God ouer those blind and squint-eyed smatterers in Diuinitie . And this hope of domineering amongst so many blind ones hath egged on you Iesuites thus diligently to dwell vpon this craft , and to put downe all the ancient Sophisters for deceipt and fraude , your selues being yet but vpstarts : For if there were euer any kingdome of pore-blind men ouer the starck blind , questionlesse it is now wholly descended vnto you , to whom the ancienter orders of Monks and Friers do willingly yeeld the garland , because they thinke ▪ you see something . Play your prizes now you noble Sophisters , and execute with all diligence the Sophisticall dominion which you haue gotten , lest some hereafter happily sleely dispossesse you of this honor : for shortly some one or other new family and sect of Sophisters will gather strength , which ( if you looke not well about you ) will at last shoulder and shuffle you violently out of place , and enter vpon this soueraigntie ouer the schoole of Sophistrie , which now for some yeares you haue possessed . For out of doubt , kingdomes themselues entitled vpon pety sleights and deceiptfull conueiances of words , cannot long continue . Seeing therefore this your whole shew of new learning consists in furbushing vp of vntruths , and refining the former Sophistrie , verily I make no question , but as it is of yesterdayes building , so it will shortly fall to ruine .

But for as much as you mention certain Sophismes as ours , and perswade your fauorites that we vse very much sophistrie ; before I answere to these your falshoods which you lay to our charge , I will giue the reader a tast of your owne most notorious false-grounded a a DVR . Our Auncestors , otherwise most wise men , hauing not alwaies to deale with wilfull spirits , did not strictly stand vpon exact forme of teaching . WHIT. pag. 734. The cause is the more desperate when such wise men could find no better arguments to maintaine it , but such as euen your self confesse to be but weake : and both their hearers were then too credulous to beleeue , and you are now ridiculous to defend such loose arguments . disputations , and deceiptfull Elenches ; that so , Pvralogismis & Elenchis . whether you or we be more truly to be tearmed Sophisters , the Schoole and Vniuersitie it selfe may determine betwixt vs , where you desire rather these things should be discussed , then amongst the vulgar . I for my part do appeale vnto this schoole of Philosophers , and Vniuersitie of Diuines ; and I earnestly beseech all men who haue vnderstanding in the principles either of Diuinitie or Logick , and as many as euer tasted of any Schoole-learning , that they will heedfully obserue how current these your conclusions be , and examine them by the rules of right and true disputation .

And indeed to chuse , I will there begin , where you your selfe haue made an entrance . We mainteine , that it is lawfull for Ministers of the Gospell , and for Deacons , to be maried . You skorne the arguments whereby we make it good . Wherefore let vs consider what goodly stuffe is brought on your side for the contrarie .

Pope Innocent , the second of that name , Distinct. 82 Proposuisti . Rom. 8.8 . thus concludeth ( you must suppose ) by diuine inspiration against these mariages : They which are in b b DVR . Pope Innocent spake of Priests , who had vowed single life of their owne accord , but afterward yeelded to lust . WHIT. pag. 735. Nay he spake that of all Deacons and Priests , for hee saith further ( Distinct. 82. cap. proposuisti ) It is not lawfull to admit them to holy offices , which vse carnall companie ●ith their wiues , because it is written , ●●e yee holy , for 〈◊〉 the Lord your God am holy : for then hee esteemed marriage duty to bee an vnholie thing in it selfe ; not in respect of their vow , of which he speaketh not a word . the flesh cannot please God : Tit. 1.15 . Vnto the pure , al things are pure , but vnto them that are defiled and vnbeleeuing , is nothing pure . Be yee holy , because I the Lord your God am holy . And because S. Paul permitteth married people ( by consent ) to sleepe apart for a season , to the end they may more conueniently giue themselues to fasting & praier ; Distinct . 31. Tenere . here hence the Pope gathereth , that this is much more c c DVR . This argument is good and can haue no shew of error . For , aboue all men , a Priest must be chaste , saith Origen , Homil. 6 4. in Leuit. Also Ierome and Ambrose , and Epiphanius taught the same WHIT. pag. 736. Yea you er●e and mistake S. Paul in theree things : 1. What he wrote to all Christians , you expound of Lay-men only . 2. He speaketh only of extraordinarie fasts & prayer , but you applie it vnto all sorts thereof . That the Apostle speaketh of extraordinarie , appeares , 1. Because he hath ioyned fasting with them , 1. Cor. 7.5.2 . Because Christ and his Apostle haue commanded all to pray continually , and so all ought to l●ue a single life . 3. From a short abstinence of Lay-men , you childishly would proue a perpetuall single life to be necessary for Ministers . You abuse also Origens words , ( & play the heretike ) as if chastitie were contrary to matrimony ; whereas the Fathers of the Nicene Councell , consented to Paphnutius , who said openly , that society with a lawfull wi●e , is chastitie : Socrates lib. 1. cap. 11. Jerome indeed disputed too sophistically against matrimony , seeking victory more then verity , as himself confessed . Ambr●se and Epiphanius disswaded Ministers only from second m●●riages , allowing their fi●st . to be done of Priests , whose office is to pray alwaies , & to offer that daily sacrifice . Distinct. 28 Decernimus Last of al , seeing they must be a temple of the Lord , and an oratory of the spirit , d d DVR . Tertullian vsed this same argument against second marriage . WHIT. pag. 739. Tertullian therein erred with Montanus , ( as all the learned know ) condemning second marriages , of vncleannes , not only in Ministers , but in all Christians : yet he himselfe being a Priest , was married , and liued with his wife , continuing his Ministery : so that he neither iudged marriage to be vncleanenes , nor vnlawfull in Ministers , simplie ; but only second marriages . they ought not to abase themselues with bed-pleasures & vncleannesses . Now out of all these he concludeth that which he propounded , that Deacons and Priests are flatlie forbidden to marry . Harding and Dorman and others . If these things be absurdly disputed , let vs heare others . Seuerall Pastors haue rule ouer seuerall flockes : c c DVR . The Pope challengeth no Lordship ouer the Churches , but professeth himselfe the seueruant of Gods seruants . WHIT. pag. 740. But his dee●s bewray his tyranny : for he prescribeth , commandeth , threatneth , punisheth , and doth whatsoeuer any Lord can do . DVR . You can dispro●e this consequent by no argument . WHIT. pag. 741. It is an absurd argument , like these ; Euery seuerall man hath one head ; therefore all men must haue one head : Euery seuerall flocke hath his shepheard ; therefore all flockes must haue one to rule them . Againe : no one man can possiblie teach and feed the whole Church with the Word and Sacrament as a faithfull Pastor should , and may doe in a particular Church Christ only can thus feed al particular Churches , which can neuer be made one visible body , and therefore can haue none but Christ the generall head and Pastor ouer them . DVR . Ierome , Cyprian , and Ireneus , haue written the same we doe . WHIT. pag 742. Not one of them . First , Ierome defendeth the superiority of one Pastor in the Church , not as a matter of accessitie , but of conueniency , to preuent schismes : and saith , that the Church is founded vpon all the Apostles alike , and that euery one equally hath receiued the keies of the kingdome of heauen ; euen in that place where you quote him : ( against Iouinian , lib. 1. ) Secondly , Cyprian concludeth only , that there should be but one Pastor in one Church and neuer thought vpon the Popes primacie ; but saith plainly , that euery particular Bishop hath all whatsoeuer any one hath by right ; in the same booke which you alleadge , of the Churches vnity . Lastly , Ireneus called the Romane , the chiefe Church , not for any superiority , but because she excelled all others in constancie , largenes , fame , and soundnes of faith . therefore the Pope ought to haue dominion ouer all Churches . Christ said to Peter feed my sheepe ; f f DVR . Jt is manifest by this place , that Christ gaue greater authoritie of feeding to Peter , than to the other Apostles , and so made him head of all his Church . WHIT. p. 744. It will not follow vpon this place , that Peter had greater authority to feed , or that he only must feede all : for he said to them all alike , Matth. 28.19 . Goe yee , teach all nations : and Iob. 20 21. As the Father sent me , so I send you : Therefore he spake so often then to Peter , to confirme him after his grieuous fall , that he might not doubt of his Apostolicall calling , as saith Augustines treatise on Iohn 123. so that it no whit concerneth the Pope . therefore Peter is the chiefe & principall Pastor of the Church . The Lord made two great lights , the Sunne , g g DVR . The Pope vseth this as a similitude to amplifie , not as an argument to prooue by authoritie . WHIT. pag. 746. This is an idle shift ; a similitude is an argument , and Johannes Andraeas would prooue hereby , that the Pope excelleth the Emperor in dignitie , seuentie times seuen degrees . & the Moone : therfore the Pope excelleth the Emperour in honour and greatnes . Heere are two swords ; therfore the h h DVR . We gather nothing hence , but what Bernard did : saying , This sword ( of temporall power ) is thine also , happily at thy commaund , though not to be drawne with thy hand : speaking to the Pope . WHIT. pag. 747. Duraeus is ashamed of this sophisme , bu● yet he fathereth it vpon Bernard , which also Iohannes a Capistrano ( of the Pope and Councels , p 77. ) and others of them haue handled ▪ and Pope Boniniface girt himselfe with a sword in signe hereof : but this place speaketh nothing at all for any such power . Pope must beare both swords . The seruant is not aboue his master : therefore i i DVR . What Catholike euer taught , or wrote thus ? howbeit the Fathers of the Sinuessan Councell said . The chiefe seate is iudged of no man . WHIT. pag. 749. Thus you will make the Pope no Catholike who saith ( Dist. 40. si P●pa ) The Pope may bee reproued of no mortall man , though he leade with him innumerable people vnto hell . And who knoweth not these two pillers of Popery ; the Church of Rome cannot erre , whatsoeuer it teacheth : and the Pope may not be accused whatsoeuer ●e doth ? The Bishops of the Sinuessan Synode spake to Marcellinus the Pope , who had denied Christ , and committed Idolatrie , and might bee accused by the Popes owne lawes , so that in citing that authoritie , you contradict both your selfe and your lawes . it is lawfull for no man to accuse or reproue the Pope . Christ prayed that Peters faith should not faile him : k k DVR . Christ made Peter his Vicar on earth , and by his prayer obtained that his Vicars faith might not faile ; by force wherof the Pope cannot erre : as Augustine and Cyprian also perceiued . WHIT pag. 750. It is not true that Christ made Peter his Vicar , nor doth it follow ; Peters faith failed not , therefore no Popes faith hath failed , who are his successors : for Popes haue done , and may fall into heresies , as you will confesse ; and may erre in faith , saith Pope Boniface ( D●st 40. Papa : ) which he could not do it this argument of yours were true . Further Christ prayed for all his Apostles , and the whole Church : shal we say Christs prayer was lesse effectuall for the rest then for Peter ? If it be not , then none of their successors could erre no more then Peters : which I suppose you will not affirme . And Augustine , and Cyprian neuer reasoned as you do ; you abuse their names . therefore the Pope cannot erre . The vulgar people commeth seldome and negligently to the Lords Supper : l l DVR . If you beleeued the Prophet Malachie , or the Masse , you would confesse this argument to be good . WHIT pag. 753. You can neuer proue your Masse by the Prophet Malachie , who speaketh of the prayers of the godly , as Tertullian , Eusebius , and Jerome expound him : and if the Masse were a sacrifice indeed , ( as you call it ) the peoples negligence , is no sufficient cause to make it priuate , and yet to profit the people , yea though they be absent : you may aswel abuse the Word it selfe so ; and say it is inough , when it is in publike , it the Priest handle it and heare it , and beleeue it alone , yet the people being absent and not dreaming of any such thing , may be saued by it . therefore the Priest may celebrate priuate Masse . Christ admitted onlie his Apostles to Suppe : therefore Priests alone must m m DVR . The people also receiue the whole Sacrament , vnder one kind . WHIT pag. 754. It is childish dotage to say so ; as though one part of a thing , were the whole ; or , as if Christ appointing both bread and wine , ordained more then a whole Sacrament : that Pope was wiser , which said of certaine heretikes that refrained from the Cup , as you do● , ( De concil . dist. 2. cap. Comperimus : ) Let them either receiue the whole Sacrament , or refuse all . DVR . Christs words , Drinke yee all of this , proue n●t that all Christians must doe so . WHIT. pag. 755. They doe proue it , as those words , take eate , doe proue that all must eate : and you may as well keepe both the elements from the people , as one , contrarie to S. Paul , 1. Cor. 11.23 . DVR . The Passeouer might be eaten without wine . WHIT. pag. 756. It might , because God had not commaunded wine , but Christ himselfe commaundeth it in his Supper , 1. Cor. 11.45 . DVR . The common people are a●t bound to drinke of the Cap : for S. Paul saith , As oft as ye drinke it , to signifie they were not commanded so to doe . WHIT. So he saith of the bread also , As of , as yee eate , 1. Cor. 11.26 . so that , by your argument , neither is the bread commanded them . receiue the Sacrament ; the people ought to bee contented only with one part . The title which Pilate fastned vpon the Crosse , was written in Hebrew , Greeke , & Latine : therfore n n DVR . No Catholike doth so reason ; we say , that title had in it a mysterie : and Augustine proueth by it , that the word , coessent●all , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , may be vsed in the Creede . WHIT. pag. 757. Papists often reason thus , as all men knowe which read their writings , though you bee ashamed of it . Tell vs what mysterie you meane , if it bee worth the labour ; as for Augustine , hee speakes no word that makes here for your cause , yet you blush not to quote him . prayers must bee read in the Churches in no language , but either Hebrew , or Greeke , or Latine . Harding . That which is holy must not be giuen to dogges : o o DVR . We say not , that all , but that some of the people may not haue the Scriptures committed to them . WHIT. pag. 758. Who doubteth but that wisedome is to be vsed in teaching the people ; and that they which shew themselues dogges , and hogges , must be barred from the Scriptures : but this is nothing to the present question ; whether this reason be good , which Papists sometimes vse : and which here you should haue spoken to , and not thus wander . therfore the vulgar people must be forbidden to reade the Scriptures . This is my bodie : therefore the p p DVR . Christ said it way his bodie . WHIT. pag. 759. Christ by an vsuall phrase of Scripture , called the thing signifying by the name of the thing signified , because of the sacramentall ioint receiuing of both , to wit , of the bread with the mouth , and of his bodie by faith . Againe , if that which was in Christs hands were his reall body , when he said so , then was transubstantiation before ( which you deny ) and then he had two bodies : but if it were bread , then is there a metonymie in his words , as wee truly say . bread is turned into Christs bodie . Fall downe before his footestoole : q q DVR . Ambrose and Augustine reasoned so from this Scripture . WHIT p. 761. That is false : they teach onely , that we must worship Christ in the mysteries and Sacrament ; not the my●teries and Sacrament themselues . therefore the Sacrament must be worshipped . God is no respecter of persons : Pighius . r r DVR . That was Pighius his error : but the iudgement of Catholike Vniuersities is , that foreseeing of merits is no cause of Predestination . WHIT. pag. 762. Thus you fall from your champion Pighius in words , but indeed many of your Schooles defend him : saying , the kingdome of heauen is prepared for them which haue merited it by their good works . therefore hee chuseth no man to life eternall , but with respect of merits . S. Iames commaundeth that sicke persons should be anointed : s s DVR . The sicke want health now as well as then , and therefore must now haue the same helping remedie . WHIT. pag. 763. Anointing was a signe of healing in those times of extraordinarie giftes in the Church ; your anointing healeth nothing that wanteth health ; and so is friuolous . therefore we must now euer and anon anoint the sicke . This is a great mysterie : t t DVR . The Apostle speaketh that properly of Matrimonte . WHIT. pag. 764. Nay , he himselfe expoundes it of the mysticall vnion betweene Christ and the Church . therefore Matrimonie is a Sacrament . Elias and Iohn Baptist liued in the wildernesse : u u DVR . These men left a famous example of Monkish life . WHIT. pag. 765. The Monkes life is not proued by their examples : for Elias was commaunded to goe into the desert during perill ; they doe that without both precept and perill : John Baptist indeede liued in the desert , but wherein men did dwell , to whom also he preached ; and there were many cities and townes in that desert , Josh. 15.61 . what is this to idle Monkish life ? therefore they inuented the manner of life and discipline of Monkes . There are seuen deadly sinnes : x x DVR . Name him that thus disputeth . WHIT. pag. 766. It is Iohn L●d●wicke , in a booke intituled . The golden worke of true contrition , leafe 128. Where are abunuen sorts of men in the Church , &c. therefore there are iust seuen Sacraments . God made man after his image : y y DVR . Pope Adrian proueth not the vse of images by this place , but saith it was signified by it . WHIT. pag. 767. Then you confesse he alleageth that Scripture to proue the vse of images was signified by it , and who but a superstitious doctor , would haue done so ? therefore images must be set vp in Churches . The chiefest of these is charitie : z z DVR . The chiefest gift must come from the chiefest vertue . WHIT. pag. 768. S. Paul 1. Cor. 13. doth not in all things preferre charitie before faith , but onely because it indureth in the life to come , when wee shall not neede faith , as Chrysostome expoundes it : now faith onely apprehends Christ our righteousnesse , and therein excelleth charitie . Lastly , you erre grossely in effect , ascribing our iust●fication to the merit of vertue in vs ; which onely is merited by Iesus Christ . therefore we are iustified more by charitie than by faith . I will goe , Osea . 5.15 . saith the Lord , to my place , vntill they ponder in their heart , and seeke my face : ( which indeede he spake a a DVR . Do you thinke that God calleth men to repentace ironically . WHIT. pag. 799. No ; but when men will not se●k God , being called thereto by his bountie ; no maruaile though hee withdraw it from them , and ( as it were ) laugh at their madnes : of which ironies there be many examples in Scriptures . ironically , and after the manner of men ) therefore men may be conuerted vnto the Lord , by their owne meere will and disposition . The Lord commaundeth vs to doe many things : b b DVR . Augustine denieth that God hath commanded impossible thin●s . WHIT. pag. 770. Hee expoundeth his owne meaning , that Adam before his fall could , and that we in heauen shal be able to keepe all Gods commandements ; but he often saith , that no man in this life can fulfill the Law of God . DVR . Men vse not to make lawes impossible to be kept . WHIT. We must not measure Gods doing by mans : Againe , when these lawes were first giuen , man could performe them , and wee must not looke that God should alter them to fit our corruption . DVR ▪ God could not iustly punish lawbreakers , if they could not keepe it . WHIT. pag. 771. Answere then Eusebius , ( Euangelicall demonst. lib. 1 ) who saith , that Moses Law was impossible to be kept of any man : And Thomas Aquinas , vpon Gal. 3. sect. 4. saying : Moses commaunded many things , which no man could fulfill . therefore those things may be performed of vs . Christ descended to the dead : therefore he deliuered c c DVR Tell me for what other cause Christ went into bel , but to deliuer the Fathers from Limbus ? WHIT. pag. 772. Nay , first proue you that he did go so to hel , as you thinke ; for my part I beleeue it not , but that his soule went presently to heauen . Againe , you begge the question , saying , he went to hell to deliuer the Fathers . DVR . I proue it by these Scriptures : Zac. 9.11 . Psal 68.18 . Heb. 9.8 . WHIT. ●acharie speaketh only of the Iewes deliuery from the captiuitie of Babylon . Dauid speaketh of Christs ascending into heauen , and triumph ouer his enemies ; and you childishly inferre hereupon , therefore he descended to hell to deliuer the Patriarkes from Limbus : but most ridiculously you abuse that place to the Hebrewes , the true sense whereof is ; that we are not reconciled to God , by the Iewish sacrifices , but by Christ ; therefore you inferre , that none of the Patriarkes went to heauen , vntill Christ came out of hell , and opened heauen by his bodilie ascension . the Fathers out of Limbus . The Church discerneth the Scriptures : d d DVR . Catholikes say not so . WHIT. pag. 773 But your false Church doth so ; for it interpreteth Scriptures as it listeth : and constraineth all Christians to rest therein , bee it neuer so false , and contrarie to the Scriptures ; else it doth condemne him for an heretike . therefore the authoritie of the Church is greater than the authoritie of the Scriptures . Saint Paul commaundeth the Thessalonians , 2. Thess. 2.15 that they keepe the ordinances which they had learned : therefore e e DVR . What error find you in this argument ? WHIT. pag. 774. I find in it a threefold false consequent : first you cannot proue hence ; that the things which S. Paul spake by word , were not the same in effect which hee wrote to them : secondly , if he wrote not all to them which he had taught them , it followeth not that hee taught something which is not written in the Scriptures : thirdly ; admit many things were left vnwritten , yet it followeth not , that all things necessary to saluation be not written : nor do the ancient Fathers say so . all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation . 2. Cor. 3 , 15. Hee himselfe shall bee safe , yet as it were through fire : f f DVR . Sundry Fathers expound this place of Purgatory fire . WHIT. pag. 776. But the place it selfe sheweth that it cannot bee meant of any such fire : for 1. S. Paul speaketh of the purging away that which is a fault : but in your Purga●orie faults are not consumed , but ( you say ) punishments are s●ffred for f●u●●s . 2. S. Paul saith euery mans worke , be it gold or wood , shall be tried ; but you cast nothing but wood , hay , and stubble into your fained Purgatory . 3. S. Paul saith euery mans worke shall be manifest by this fire ; but your Purgatory fire is obscure , and neuer sheweth such light . 4. The word fire , is vsed by S. Paul Metaphorically , as also are gold , siluer , hay , wood &c. but you say your Purgatory fire , is true fire . The fire which S. Paul heer● meaneth , is the holy Ghost , who proueth all doctrines , and seuereth the false from the true . Ambrose on Psal. 118. saith , This fire is the word of Christ : Angustine indeed spake doubtfully of Purgatory , saying , ( Enchiridion , cap. 69. ) it may be that there is some such thing , but whether yea or no , it is a question ; and in his booke of the Citie of God ; he saith , perhaps it is true : many others of the Fathers thought this purging should bee at Christs comming to iudgement ; which much differeth from your Purgatorie . Chrysostome in his Preface on Esay , saith ; God at one instant abolisheth sin , freeth from punishment , and giueth righteousnes ; Tertullian in his booke of Baptisme , saith : Guilt and punishment are taken away togither . Hierome saith , vpon the 31. Psalme ; the sin which is couered is not seene ; that which is not seene is not imputed ; that which is not imputed shall not be punished : so that nothing is left for your Purgatorie , by these mens iudgements . therefore men passe thorow the fire of Purgatorie to life eternall .

To what purpose should I rehearse innumerable others your disputations like these ? Now , Campian , let vs heare a few of your owne . Augustine wrote three bookes of free will : therefore Augustine approued that man hath free will . Christ was ignorant of some thing : therefore Christ was not without sinne . The Fathers diligently searched the Scriptures : therefore it is neuer lawfull to dissent from the Fathers .

These your argumentations I haue thus briefely collected : which what goodly ones they be , our Vniuersitie students easilie perceiue . Doe you acknowledge them to be your owne , Campian , so sophisticall , so inconsequent , so full of deceite and falsehoods ? You were in a great straite if you could not denie it ; but if you confesse it , you are quite ouerthrowne : for all these are very vnlearnedly concluded ; either by mistaking words of double signification ; or by wresting phrases figuratiuely spoken : or without any consequent ; or from ignorance of the Elenche ; or ( to conclude ) altogethe trifling . It sufficeth that I haue touched these but lightly : now I come to those which you obiect against vs .

There be foure chiefe heads of deceitfull disputing , Sciamachia . wherein you say our sophistrie chiefely consisteth : to wit , Sciamachia , a fighting with a shadow , Logomachia , a contention about words . Homonymia , a mistaking of the sense of words : and Circulatio , a going about the bush . Let vs see how grossely wee vse to erre in them . Sciamachia , or a fighting with ones shadow , you first define , then you produce examples ( of our supposed practise . ) I dislike not the definition , and hasten to those examples . Against those that haue vowed single life ( say you ) they alleage Scriptures which speake honourably of mariage ; whom smite they with such weapons ? Whom but your selfe , Campian , and those so worthy Prelates on your side , which first imposed the vowe of perpetuall virginitie vpon Ministers of the Gospell . For if the Scriptures doe indeed speake honourably of wedlocke , then Pope Syricius , and Innocent the second of that name , and such others your stoute maintainers of single life , can by no meanes be defended , who , as is well knowne , haue spoken many things basely , a a DVR . This is your impudencie , for we say matrimony is so holie , that it is euen a Sacrament , yet not equall with Virginitie . WHIT. pag. 778. All men know what Syricius and Jnnocentius wrote of Matrimony . By the Scriptures it appeareth to be equally holy with virginity ; if not , why bring you no testimony to the contrarie ? And it is very absurd , that you account virginity more holy , and yet wil needs haue matrimony to be a Sacrament : virginity should rather be a Sacrament , seeing ( by your opinion ) it is the more holy . despitefully , and wickedly of matrimonie . Consider well those speeches which euen now I produced , taken out of your law : deny , if you can for shame , that they be dishonest in themselues , and egregiouslie iniurious to wedlocke . Certainely if these Scriptures doe indeed wound ( the auncient heretikes ) Saturninus , Seuerus , b b DVR . What Catholike euer esteemed marriage to be no better than pollution , as those heretikes did ? WHIT. pag. 779. Pope Innocent in effect , in that he disswaded Deacons from it , because they must be holy , and haue nothing to do with pollutions , and bed-pleasures : than which Tatianus himselfe could say nothing against mariage more impious . Tatianus , the Encratites , and the Archontici , needs must they also most sharpely touch you to the quicke , which commonly are woont to iudge and speake no whit more honourably of wedlocke than they haue done . For shew me , Campian , if you can , wherein those reprochfull speeches may any whit more touch the marriage of Ministers , than of other men . Thus then both you your selues haue apparantly fled to the heretikes holdes ; and also these Scriptures which doe speake so honourably of wedlocke , doe disproue your heresie , and giue you a very deadly wound . For thus I presse our argument more effectually ( than you : ) If wedlocke be honourable in euery degree of men , and the bed vndefiled ; then in no degree ought they to be esteemed dishonest or impure : but the antecedent is c c DVR . By this argument , you may as well condemne Saint Paul : for marriage is honorable , euen in those widowes , who yet haue damnation ( saith he ) because they will marry . WHIT. pag. 779. S. Paul disalloweth such widowes , not because they would marry , but because they would reiect their faith & Christian profession , by waxing wanton , & marrying with Infidels . true ; therefore the consequent is necessarily true also . Hebr. 13.4 . What can you here disproue ? or why hath it not the force of a necessarie conclusion , out of which you shall neuer be able to winde your selfe ? As for your sleight euasion , because of a former vowe , I haue already confuted it . Let vs now proceede vnto your other examples .

Against the merits of a Christian man , dipped in Christs blood ( say you ) they recite testimonies , which commaunde vs to put our affiance neither in nature , nor in the Law , but in the blood of Christ : whom doe they confute with these testimonies ? Those arguments which are vrged by our side against mens merits , doe most clearely confute you and strike you dead . Mans nature is corrupt ; Gen. 6.5 . ●● . Rom. 4.15 . and the Law sheweth the disease , but doth not cure it : therefore all our hope of saluation consisteth in Christs blood . But you haue deuised vs a kinde of merit , forsooth , dipped in the blood of Christ , which may auaile much to deserue saluation . For so you maintaine , that saluation doth not wholy consist in the blood of Christ , but that it much what dependeth vpon your owne merites ; yet so as that they be dipped with Christs blood ; lest you might bee thought downe right Pelagians . To speake more plainely : this is that you teach , wherein the whole summe ( first and last ) of your righteousnesse consisteth : namely , That Christ hath merited for vs by his blood , that we might d d DVR . Wee teach plainely , that all the merits of our good workes , haue their force and effect only from Christs blood . WHIT. pag. 780. Thus you detract saluation from Christs merits , and ascribe it to ou● merits , dipped with his blood : which the Scriptures no where teach , but vtterly condemne , prouing that all our good workes , are in something faulty , and so merit not eternall life . Againe by your doctrine , euery man should bee redeemed by his owne workes , and so not by one only Mediator . 1. Tim. 2.5 . Thirdly , Christ vndertooke to obtaine for vs remission of sinnes by his owne death , which he performed not perfectly , if it be in part by our owne workes . Fourthly ; so should we not trust in God only , but also in our workes dipped in Christs blood , which were blasphemie . DVR . The Scripture saith , we are worthie the kingdome of God . WHIT. pag. 782. It saith we are worthie , not because of our owne merits , but in that Christs merits are communicated vnto vs . DVR . Life eternall is often called a reward in Scriptures , and the Fathers . WHIT. pag. 78● . Reward doth not alwaies argue merit , but is oftentimes freely giuen : and the Scriptures neuer mention any of our merits . merit saluation . This is that merit dipped with the blood of Christ , which you speake of , Confute now our arguments , if you can , which vsually are alleaged against it . Whatsoeuer is required as a e e DVR . The Angels haue merited , & our first parents might haue merited blessednes before their fall , yet all that they could doe , was a due debt vnto God . WHIT. pag. 785. If Christ say truly , that they are vnprofitable seruants which do all that is commanded , & no more ; then neither may the Angels , nor might those out first parents ascribe any thing to their owne merits , but to Gods free mercy , seeing they could do no more good then they ought , and was commanded them . debte , that meriteth not : but whatsoeuer ( good thing ) we doe , Rom. 8.12 . Luk. 17.10 . Rom. 4.4 . is wholy a debt : therefore we haue no merit at all of our owne . And that you may vnderstand , that we ought to put confidence in the blood of Christ onely , and not in our owne merits ; I will thus reason from Saint Pauls doctrine . ●al. 2.21 . If righteousnesse be by the Law ; then Christ died in vaine : but if we be iustified by our f f DVR . W●e are iustified by the merits of our workes , not done by our owne power , and helpe of the Law only , but by grace in Christ .

WHIT. pag. 786. Thus might the Galathians haue answered S. Paul , whose faith was all one with yours in this point ; when be reproued them for ioyning the workes of the Law with grace to iustification : but S. Paul shewed them , that the inheritance is of promise only , and so meerely of grace ; and no whit of works ; which are euer of the Law , whether before or after faith .

merits , we are iustified by the Law : therefore if we be iustified by our merits , Christ died in vaine . What neede I here mention innumerable other our arguments , not one whereof , but it is concluded demonstratiuely , and infallibly : whereas your owne merits , alas , are verie pittifully and shamelesly defended by you , against the blood of Christ .

You adde to these a third example ( saying ) Against those which honour saints , as the most acceptable seruants of Christ , there are vouched whole pages of Scriptures , which prohibit the worshipping of many gods : where are they now ? Verily the Lord by his owne authoritie reserueth vnto himselfe , Psal. 50.15 . that we inuocate him alone : wherefore who so worshippeth and inuocateth g g DVR . We worship not Saints as Gods , but as the friends and seruants of God ; and Saint Paul himselfe desired to be helped by the prayers of sundrie Christian Churches : so that you cauill with vs , as the heathen and heretikes did of old against the Fathers . WHIT. pag. 787. The honor of inuocation may not be giuen to any of Gods friends ; for we must pray to none , but whom we may call , Father , Luk. 11.2 . and in whom we may beleeue , Rom. 10.14 . therefore not to Saints at all . As for Saint Paul , he craued the prayers of Saints for him , whilest they liued ▪ but he neuer either prayed to them liuing , or dead . Nor did the Catholike Fathers worship , adore , or inuocate Saints departed , as you doe : For Augustine Epist. 44. saith to Maximus the Heathen , know you that no Catholike Christian doth worship any of the dead , & Ierome to Vigilantius , saith , who is so madde , as to worship any of the Martyrs ? Saints , hee giueth to them the honour due to God : for he both presupposeth that they can performe any thing whatsoeuer , and also that they be h h DVR . The Saints heare our prayers , though they be absent .

WHIT. pag. 790. Euery one that prayeth to Saints supposeth them to be present , & to know euen his thoughts , and so ( in effect ) maketh them Gods : as Basil proueth the holie Ghost to be God , because hee heareth godly mens prayers whersoeuer .

DVR . The Saints are in many far distant places at once , though not euery where . WHIT pag. 791. Duraeus doteth to say so : for as well they might be in all , as in many places at once : But Damascene , lib. 2. cap. 3. and A●●●nas , quaest. 52. art. 2 say of the very Angels , that when they be in heauen , they are not in earth . present euery where , both which are the peculiar properties of God onely . So that whatsoeuer is ( truly ) alleaged against many gods , that is altogether effectuall against your Saints in heauen , whom both you worship more zealously than God himselfe , and robbe him of his due honour to adorne them . 1. Tim. 1.5 . Rom. 8.34 . Heb. 7.25 . There is ( indeed ) one mediator of God and men , the man Iesus Christ ; he for euer maketh intercession for vs ; therefore they which bring in new intercessors , and mediators , are i i DVR . Christ is the only Mediator of Redemption ; and Saints may be Mediators of Intercession , without iniurie to him . WHIT. pag. 793. Christ alone is Mediator of both , as these Scriptures proue plainly : and Christ himselfe saith , no man commeth to the Father but by me , Iob. 14.6 . and , hee will giue you all things in my name , Ioh. 16.23 . and 1 Ioh. 2.2 . so that it is sacrilege against Christs Priesthood , to make Saints mediators to commend vs to God . iniurious vnto Christ . Tell me , Campian , haue you any face to defend these your sentences following ? k k Duraeus excuseth this , perswading himself the writer meant no ill in it ; though it be indeed intolerable , as are many other such their vsuall speeches of the blessed Virgin : see Whit . pag. 794. Commaunde him by thy motherly authoritie ; and those which are often chaunted in the rude ryme of the Masse of the virgin Maries conception , thus :

Tu spes certa miserorum , verè mater orphanorum , Tu leuamen oppressorum , Medicamen infirmorum , Omnibus es omnia ?

That is to say , Thou ( blessed Virgin Marie ) art the infallible l l DVR . Saint Paul calleth the Thessalonians his hope , 1. Thess. 2.19 . WHIT. pag. 796. But hee neuer put his trust in , nor called vpon them , as you doe the Virgin Marie : hee called them his hope , because he receiued great hope and ioy by his labours in their conuersion . You make the Virgin an instrument of our saluation , and therefore you trust in her , but the Scriptures teach euery where to trust in God and Christ only . As Psal. 71.3 . Ier. 17.5.7 . 1. Tim. 1.1 . and 1. Pet. 1.21 . hope of such as are in miserie , the true mother of Orphanes ; Thou art the consolation of such as be oppressed , the medicine of such as bee diseased , Thou art all m m DVR . The sentence of the Catholike Church , hath no where alloued this ; but if it had , it might be conueniently defended .

WHIT pag. 797. Duraeus can conueniently expound that , which most absurdly taketh the office of re●emption from Christ and giueth it to the Virgin Mary .

in all to all men ( or ) in all necessities ; and other such like abominable speeches , and full of strange blasphemie ? If happily you thinke our reproouing of these things , be but some fighting with a shadow , then doe you no more respect the glorie of God , than the shadow of an Asse .

The second error in disputation wherewith you charge vs , Logomachia is , that wee often vse Logomachia , which is when the sense is neglected , and men contend about the word . I vnderstand it well : but which bee those our faults committed in this kinde ? Can you finde vs ( say they ) the Masse , or Purgatorie in the Scriptures . And is not this our demaund reasonable ? For where should these be found rather than in the Scriptures ? There was nothing wont to be accounted more holy than the Masse , and there could nothing be inuented more gainfull than Purgatorie : that neither of these now at last should be found in the Scriptures , certainly it may well seeme a very strange and vnreasonable thing . Belike then ( say you ) Trinitas , the Trinitie ; Homousios , coessentiall ; Persona , a person , are no where in the Bible , because these very termes are not to be found there . Neither say we so , Campian , nor will it follow at all hereupon ; and these things be altogether vnequally compared . For albeit these very termes are not in Scriptures , Epiphan. contra Semiarian . l. 3 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . yet the matter it selfe , and the sense , as Epiphanius writeth , commeth to hand in all places , and is easily euery where to bee found . But your n n DVR . Did you neuer reade these words of Christ in his last Supper : this is my body ? WHIT. pag. 799. Yea ; but Christ ordeined then a Sacrament , not a sacrifice : he offered himselfe a sacrifice only once vpon the Crosse , Heb 9 10. not in his last Supper , except you will say , he died then also , which he must haue done to make it a sacrifice ; but he was then aliue , & it were most absurd to say he was aliue and dead at one time , which he needs must be , both then and in al your Masses , if there be any sacrifice in the Masse at all . Againe , externall sacrifices , as you say your Masse is , are subiect to the sight & outward senses , but no man euer saw Christ to be sacrificed , either in the Supper or in the Masse . Therefore there is none , neither in the one nor in the other . DVR . Jt was a sacrifice , for Christ was really conteined vnder those former of bread and wine : and so the Masse is now an vnbloodie sacrifice . WHIT. pag. 801. You cannot prooue him to be so present there as you teach , by no Scripture ; and if he were , yet that was not therefore a sacrifice , except you will haue his reall being in the Virgins wombe also to be a sacrifice , in which he was conteined . As for your vnbloody propitiatorie sacrifice : first , it is absurd , for to sacrifice killeth a bodie , but your Transubstantiation maketh a bodie : secondly , it hath no word of God for it : thirdly , it is needlesse , Christs sacrifice being perfect : fourthly , Christ ordained that supper in memorie of his sacrifice , not to be it selfe a sacrifice : WHIT. pag. ●03 . DVR . Many of the Fathers call the Eucharist by the name of sacrifice . WHIT. pag 805. Not because it is that same which Christ offered ( as you teach ) but because it is a memoriall and Sacrament of it . DVR . Purgatorie is most plainely prooued by the fact of Iudas Machabaeus , in the second booke and 12. chapter . WHIT. pag. 806. Those bookes are not Canonicall Scripture , neither doth that act prooue a Purgatorie by your owne doctrine , who say those that die in deadly sinne , ( as those did there mentioned ) goe to hell , and not to Purgatorie . Masse and Purgatorie , are not in this manner in the Scriptures , seeing neither the names nor the things themselues any where do appeare : yea they are plainly against the Scriptures . For what else is either the Masse , than as * * Bustum coenae Dominica . an empty sepulchre where is onely the title of the Lords Supper ? or what is Purgatorie more than a shamelesse merchandise of soules , and an intolerable contempt against the blood of Christ ? Wherefore this is not a trisling contention about words , but a most waightie one about matters of moment ; except peraduenture you make account of the Masse and Purgatorie , not to bee matters of moment , but words of Arte only . As for the name o o DVR . The office of a Presbyter , or Elder , in the Gospell is the same that the Priests office was in the Lawe .

WHIT. pag. 807. It is not so : for if the office did remaine ; why should the name be changed , for Elders are neuer called Priests in the new Testament . And there be ruling Elders in the Church , which labour not in the Ministerie of the word and Sacraments , as the Priests did .

Presbyter , and Sacrament , it is appropriated from the common signification , to some certaine and particular things , as likewise many other names are ; ( to wit ) Ecclesia the Church , Episcopus a Bishop , Apostolus an Apostle , Dia●onus a Deacon : and these names wee willingly vse , but so that wee carefully shunne their impertinent significations . Neither was that indeede sufficient cause , why you should register Matrimonie in the catalogue of Sacraments , because S. Paul wrote ( thus ) Sacramentum hoc magnum , Eph. 5. This is a great mysterie . For in that place , Sacramentum , is vsed in a large signification for any mysterie , not for that ceremony which may properly be called a Sacrament . As for that counsell of Thomas Aquinas , we doe very well approue it .

The third head , Homonymia or kinde of deceitfull disputation which you say we vsually erre in , is Homonymia , equiuocation , or a mistaking the sense of words : whereof you propound two examples : For ( say you ) we both confound the order of Priests , because S. Iohn hath tearmed vs all Priests ; and also abolish choice of meates , and prescribed obseruation of daies , Apoc. 5. because the Prophet highly commendeth a spirituall fast . Esay 48. I wil speake a few words both of the one and other , that I may cleerly quit vs of this crime of Homonymie . Saint Iohn alone hath not named all p p DVR . By this argument you may as well proue the Iewes had no Priests ; properly so called . WHIT. pag. 809. Not so , for the Lord ordained such a Priesthood amongst them , which he hath not amongst Christians . Christians Priests , 1. Pet. 2.5.9 but S. Peter also hath tearmed them a holy , and a royall Priesthood : and this name is in no place of the new Testament q q DVR . So the name , Sacrament , is neuer giuen to Baptisme , nor to the Eucharist in the New testament . WHIT. pag. 810. But the substance of it , agreeth to them both , and is there , whereas the name , Sacerdos , a Priest , is not in the new Testament , nor doth the thing it selfe properly belong to any but Christ , since his death . DVR . Yea Christ instituted a sacrifice in his Supper , and where a sacrifice is , there is a Priest also . WHIT. pag. 810. Christ ordeined them no sacrifice , but only a Sacrament of a sacrifice . DVR . Esay calleth the M●nisters of the Gospell , Priests , cap. 6● . 6 . & 66.21 . WHIT. Esay in the first place speaketh of all Christians ; and in the second , of Ministers in the phrase of that time ; whence also you may as well say Deacons are Leuites , which you will not say they are prope●ly . DVR Ministers are needlesse , except they be Priects , and as mediators betwixt God and men vnto saluation : and your Ministers are but Lay-men . WHIT. pag. 810. ●15 . They must preach the Word , and administer the Sacraments , but not offer sacrifice of mediation betwixt God and men , as you say , you do in the Masse : to do these we haue a calling ordeined of Christ ; for your sacrifice you haue none . DVR . The Apostles name them not Priests , because they are not of the order of Aaron ; but the Fathers call them Priests , who knew the Apostles m●a●ing : and you call them Priests in English . WHIT pag. 812. Christ only is a Priest , after the order of Melchisedecke : Heb. 7.3 . so then there be no Priests at all , you confesse : the Fathers call them so by custome , but not properly & the Apostles of purpose abstaining from the name of Priests , might teach vs hereafter better wisdome to do so also . properly applied to the Ministers of the Gospell . For Christ being made an high Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech , hath no copartners of this r r DVR . True , for it is Christ that presenteth himselfe in the sacrifi●e , we onely are as ministers .

WHIT. p. 814. If you be Ministers only , then are you not properly Priests ; & why then will you be so called ? DVR . Yet we as truely sacrifice , as baptise . WHIT. Thus you will be Ministers only , and no Priests , nor be copa●tners in Christs sacrifice ; yet you will b● tearmed Priests , and truly sacrifice ; these be contraries , and cannot stand together , yea , meere madnes and dotages .

Priesthood : therefore Christ hath left vnto his ( Churches ) a Ministerie , and not a new Priesthood . Neither doth there remaine to vs s s DVR . Thus you strippe the Gospell of all sacrifice and ●eligion . WHIT. pag. 816. 817. All your religion by this your doctrine , is in your Masse , which we willingly haue not ; but notwithstanding we haue the sacrifice of Christ , which is perpetuall and inchangeable , Heb. 7 2● . 28 . and 10.14 . your inuisible sacrifice the Scripture knoweth not . any such sacrifice ; for the administration whereof some speciall Priests must needs be authorised . For that sacrifice of praise , and doing good , Hebr. 13.15.16 . which the Apostle mentioneth , and which now remaineth onely ; that ( I say ) appertaineth indifferently to all Christians . Notwithstanding we permit none to execute the administration of this ministery , which Christ would haue to be perpetuall in his Church , but them whom it concerneth , and who are by due order t t DVR . Who called Luther , Caluin , Beza , &c. your Ministers ? WHIT. pag. 820. Luther , Zuinglius , Bucer , &c. were Priests of your owne , and so had a calling ( except your order of Priesthood be no calling ) and might call others by your law . Againe , God is not tied so to order , but that he may for the good of the Church , call Ministers extraordinarily . And the Churches haue lawfull power to chuse Ministers ( so that we need not to call any from you that seruice ) as saith Cyprian . Epist. 68. Thus were Calui● and Beza chosen . called thereunto . Albeit then Christ haue made vs all both Kings , that we might be able to subdue our sinnes ; and Priests , that we might offer him spirituall sacrifices : notwithstanding as it is not lawfull for euery man to dreame of a kingdome , so it is a thing detestable for any man to enter vpon the holy Ministery , who hath not that function committed vnto him by diuine authoritie . Wherefore I see not at all why you should charge vs with any such Homonymy ( or falshood from ambiguous signification ) in this word . As for your maner of fasting , that indeed is wholly in shew , and hath nothing in it of a Christian fast , but the very name . For to make choyce of meates , as a thing more religious , and to prescribe certaine , and perpetuall set dayes , wherein we must necessarily fast , the u u DVR . This sauoureth of Luthers spirit : but Pope Leo saith , that the holy Ghost taught the Apostles , the discipl●ne of fasting , for one of the chiefe Sacraments of heauenly doctrine . WHIT. pag. 8●1 . &c. Wee allow Christian fasting ; but what spirit taught Leo to say so of your solemne superstitious fasts ? the Scriptures speake no such thing , which wee preferie before all mens iudgements . one is witlesse , the other superstitious . For what man , which is not depriued of iudgement and all sense , will thinke that he fasteth , who ( so that he abstaine x x DVR . No Catholike euer said , that the force of fasting consisteth in only abstinence from flesh . WHIT. pag. 822. All men know that you call your abstinence from flesh in Lent , in the Ember daies , the Saint Eues &c. fasting : and that he , who then eateth ●●sh and other meate in abundance in not said amongst you to violate his fast ; but if one doe but tast flesh , you esteeme him a grieeuous malefactor . DVR . But Elisha , Daniel , & Iohn Baptist made religious choise of meates , which you thus call madnes : yea Daniel absteined from flesh and wine to apprease Gods anger ; whose example teacheth vs also to absteine from daintier meates in time of fasting , as the Church hath long accustomed , WHIT. pag. 823. These holy men did not fast as you doe , and teach : for Elisha fed the Prophets with wild and bitter herbes , not for religion sake , but in time of f●●mine , for want of other victuall , 2. King . 4.39 . and Daniel absteined not from some only , but from all desireable meates , Dan. 10.3 . not to appease Gods anger , as you say , but that he might with more liuely sense of his brethrens miserie , humble himselfe to God : as for John Baptists continuall diet , it was locusts and wild hony , nothing like your fasting . It is meere dorage and superstation to call abstinence only from some delicate meates , fasting , though other as delicate be eaten , as you doe ; no Prophets , nor auncient Christians in the Church euer fasted thus . from flesh ) may at his pleasure glut himselfe with all maner of dainties ? Or who can suppose that the Fridayes fast is holier then the Wednesdayes fast , but he must too much sauour of Iudaisme ? If S. Paul reproued the Galathians , Gal. 4.10 . because they did obserue dayes , and y y DVR . This is an auncient cauill of heretiks ; long since ansevered by Ierome and Augustine : that we obserue not the same dayes that Iewes and Gentiles did . WHIT. pag. 824. The Church in th●ir time did not bind mens consciences to the obseruation of daies as you doe ( and as did the Galathians ) iudging it necessarie for Christians to fast at your set times : which if it had done , yet the authoritie of men must not preuaile more than Scrip●ures . moneths , and times , is it likely he would endure our Papists , which erre more grossely and shamefully ? If he forewarned the Colossians , that they would not be intangled with their superstition , Colos. 2.21 . which thought that some certaine meates were not to be z z DVR . Saint Paul reprooueth there , the practise of Iewish ceremonies . WHIT. pag. 8●6 . True , and all other like them , which are mans ordinances and doctrines , as he saith plamely , verse 22. of which sort yours are ; else shew vs Scripture for them . touched , not to be tasted , not to be handled , would he allow the papisticall choice of meates ? If he determined long since , 1. Tim. 4.2.3 that it was diuelish and a a DVR . You sight against vs with the Manichees weapo●s ; whom Augustine a●swered against Faust . lib. 30. cap. 5. That true Christians abstaine from certaine meates and fruites , more or lesse , as they please , and are able ; to tame the bodie , and humble the soule against sinne ; not as though th●se creatures were vnc●●●e . WHIT. pag. 817. Thus you make Saint Paul a Manichee ; but indeed he there condemneth them , and all that forbid to eate meates , vnder paine of damnation , which you doe : and that place of Augustine plainely sheweth how your fasts differ from the Christian fasts in his time : first , they were to tame and humble men , yours doe not so : secondly , they thought no meates vncleane , you say men are polluted by eating some forbidden : thirdly , they abstained from sith and fruites , as from flesh in their fasts , you doe not so : fourthly , they fasted as they thought good , and could , but you make generall lawes of fastings , to binde men thereto . hypocriticall to absteine from certaine meates , if he were now liuing , would he change his doctrine , and command this abstinence to a Christian ? We truely for our parts do alwayes and very highly commend a true fast , whether it be priuate or publike ; neither do we commend them only , but also we vse them , as this yeare last past may most plentifullie witnesse for vs , during which , publike fasts were most religiously obserued in very many places . As for those fasts of Moses , and Dauid , & Helias , and Iohn Baptist , and the Apostles , wherein were they any whit like vnto yours ? for if fasting do consist in choyce of meates , and in appointing set dayes , as you resolutely iudge it doth , informe me ( if you can ) that they either at any time b b DVR . The auncient obseruation of Lent , of Wednesday and Fridates fast , and of the Ember daies might haue informed you hereof .

WHIT. p. 828. 829. You play the Sophister here in graine , for Moses , Elias , Dauid , ●ohn Baptist , and the Apostles nouerkept those fasts ; neither did they nor any of the auncient Fathers preferre fish before flesh in their● fastings , as you doe .

DVR . Aeriu● was counted an heretike . who taught the same doctrine of fasting which you do . Epiphan. haerel . 75. WHIT. pag. 829. 830. The auncient Church disliked Euslathius his eagernes against Aerius in this point , as witnesseth Socrates , l. 2. c. 43. & Sozomen . l. 3. c. 13. Aerius might be an Arrian , and so an heretike , but of fasting he taught the same with Augustine , Epist. 86. that there were no certaine times of fasting appointed by the Apostles : & Tertullian ( contra Psychico● ) witnesseth that in the auncient Christian church men vsed to fast voluntarily & freely , not by Canon or precept : & Epiphanius defended Eustathius against the churches iudgment in this point touching Aerius

preferred fish before flesh , or vsed inioyned and yearely set fasts . For Iohn Baptist vsed continually to fast in his manner , and the others fasted as the times and present occasions required , in which their fasts , they absteined as well from fish as from flesh . Therefore in one word to wipe away your imputation of Homonymie , I denie that we vse any . For in that , that we require the spirituall fast , we dislike not the externall , 〈◊〉 . Tim. 4.8 . howsoeuer this outward fast be nothing profitable without the spirituall . But this deceitfull argumentation , if there were any such here , is rather by inferring a weake consequent , then by Homonymie , or equiuocation ; how be it , what the truth is we haue sufficiently ciscussed .

You haste forward and ioyne vnto these a fourth manner of deceiptfull disputation , Circulatio . named Circulation , which is , when one after a few words to no purpose returneth againe to the same , and beggeth the question . I acknowledge it to be a grosse , and vnsauorie kind of sophistry so to do , but shew me an example of our so doing . You propound one example , namely , about the true notes of the Church , for heere , you say , we alwayes make circuits and rounds , and vse that very same thing for an argument , wherein the question lieth . But how prooue you that ? forsooth because we say the notes of the Church be , the word of God , and the Sacraments . And so we say truly , for they who haue these , haue a Church of Christ ; but they who altogether want these , are vtterly without both the Church and Christ . Let vs contend about these notes , that it may be discerned whether you or we haue them . Tell me , in what Court shall we try this title ? before what Commissioner , before what Iudge shall we commence our plea ? I suppose the word of God must be consulted with . But you say you haue alreadie consulted with it , and you now fauour our cause lesse then you did before . But I say , Campian , we rest vpon the word of God , and not on your iudgement . Yea but ( say you ) prooue vnto me that this is the word of God : nay it were more meete that you should proue it is not . And I also require of you , that you will do the same thing which you commaund me to do , namely , that you will proue your word and Sacraments to be the very same , which Christ hath commended vnto his Church . Wherefore this is no more our fault , then yours ; the controuersie is about the word of God . You contend that you haue it ; I contrariwise defend that we haue it : if you like not my iudgement , why may not I dislike yours ? But you say , we expound the word c c DVR . You doe so , for you proue the sense of Scripture which you alleage , neither by authoritie of Fathers , nor by decrees of Councels , nor by the rule of faith , that is , the common vse and custome of Christians . WHIT. pag. 831. The meaning of the Scriptures in matters necessarie to saluation is plainely taught in the Scriptures ( as the Fathers themselues confesse ) and may bee found out by religious conferring of easier and harder places , and such like meanes , and so we proue the true sense of them . The Fathers expositions often erre , and varie one from another , as their writings witnesse , and you will confesse : the auncient Councels expound little of the Scriptures : as for the vse and customs of the people , it is no rule of faith at all , nor must wee expound the Scriptures thereby . amisse : I againe auouch that it is false which you say . Whither are you now come at last ? go one foote further forward if you can . Why , say you , I haue the testimonie of fifteene hundred yeeres . This is nought else but a friuolous , a foolish , and an insolent bragge . You haue not , I say , you haue not Campian . You are euer heere deceiued , and turne round againe , as it were into a circle , and are faultie in that same very thing , for which you reprooue vs . Touching the Fathers , I haue answered you alreadie . In the questions of greatest waight , they are wholly on our d d DVR . Jf it were so , you would not extenuate their authoritie , nor refuse to stand to their iudgement as you doe .

WHIT. pag. 833. We giue the Fathers their due , but rely more vpon the Scriptures , which are infallibly true . you are driuen from the Scriptures , and rake vp , euen out of the Fathers ouersights , whatsoeuer seemeth to fauour your errors : neither doth it follow that the Fathers are not on our side in many and the greatest controuersies , because wee say with Augustine , that all controuersies of religion must not bee determined out of the Fathers , but onely by the Scriptures .

side ; in those of smaller moment , their iudgements are diuers , and they make for you in very few , and those of least importance . How much better would it stand with wisedome , that ( as Augustine sometime wrote of Councels ) neither you should obiect Ierome against me , nor I Augustine against you , Aug. contra Maximian . lib. 3. cap. 14 thereby to preiudice each side , but that matter might be tried with matter , cause with cause , and reason with reason , by the authority of the Scriptures ? Aug. Epist. 111. ad Fortunatian . For indeed , as the same Augustine hath elsewhere taught vs , we must not haue any mens disputations ( howsoeuer otherwise they be men of sound iudgement and worthie praise ) in like estimation as the e e DVR . No Catholike euer esteemed any mans wittings to be compared with the Scriptures . WHIT. pag. 834. But Papists not onely compare them with , but also preferre them before the Scriptures : for they will not haue controuersies tried by the Scriptures , but by the Fathers , and they sooner allow a sentence of one Father , than many Scriptures , so did not Angustine nor Thomas Aquinas . Canonicall Scriptures . Such an vnderstander ( saith he ) am I in reading other mens writings , such would I haue other men to be of mine . And because you haue mentioned Thomas Aquinas , The. Aquinas 1. p. 1. q. 2. Art . learne of him what manner arguments may be taken out of the Fathers writings . Diuinity , or holy learning , saith he , vseth authorities of Canonicall Scripture to proue or disproue a thing necessarily ; but it vseth the authorities of other f f DVR . We say not that the iudgement of one or two of the Fathers , but that the common consent of the Pasters and Doctors of the Church is the strongest argument to confute you . WHIT. 833.835 . Augustine and Thomas spake also of all men , opposing onely Scriptures vnto them : so that apparantly they taught , that the consent of all Fathers and Doctors could bee but a probable reason , and that the Scriptures onely yeeld necessarie arguments , which no consent of men , though neuer so learned Doctors and Pastors can confute . Further I say , pag. 854. that you haue the common consent of all the Fathers in no one cause against vs ; yea , that all the auncient Fathers , doe together with vs , with one voyce condemne your halfe Communion , Transubstantiation , reall presence , sole Communion , bread-worshipping , externall reall sacrifice , seruice in strange language , your Popes absolute iurisdiction , and many other such like . Doctors of the Church to dispute of a thing probably .

These , forsooth , ô you truly learned Vniuersitie students are those so notorious sophisticall errors , which Campian could finde worthie his censure in our mens writings : I could wish you might haue this so famons a Sophister to canuas awhile at home in your Schooles , then verily would it easily appeare how much truth excelleth falshood , and how farre sound learning preuaileth against vaine bragging words : for I know well such Sophisters as this is can neither any whit affright , nor greatly perplex you .

EDMVND CAMPIAN . The tenth Reason , which is all manner of Witnesses .

THis shall be to you a direct path , so that the simplest that bee , neede not wander out of it . For who is , Esay . 35. though he be but of the meaner sort of common people , so senselesse ( so that he haue an eye vnto his soules health ) that cannot see , ( if he looke but a little about him ) the path of the Church so plainely trodden , that cannot keepe it , if he dislike of by-wayes that lead him through brambles and ragged roches , and places that cannot be passed ? These things shall be well knowne euen of those that be ignorant as Esay hath prophecied , and therefore most manifest vnto you . If you will , * * Campian bringeth nothing in this place , but a continuall begging of the question . let vs take a view of all things that are any where to be seene : let vs trauerse ouer euery thing wheresoeuer it be . All things do minister matter fit for our purpose . Let vs ascend into heauen by imagination , there may we finde such as through martyrdome , Coelites . are as ruddie as the red a a August . Serm. 37. de Sanct. rose , and also such as for their innocencie while they liued do glister as beautifully as the white Lilly . There may we see ( I say ) those * * Of which , not one was a Papist . three and thirty Bishops of b b Dam. in vit. Po●● . Rom. Rome , which for their faith were immediatlie murthered one after another . There may we see such Pastors as throughout all nations vpon the earth shed their blood for the testimony of Christs name . There may we see the stock of faithfull people that tread the steps of their Pastors . There may wee see all the c c Hiero. in cat . script . saincts of heauen that through their pure and vertuous conuersation vpon the earth , gaue a rare example vnto all sorts of men . Thou shalt finde that they both liued here , and died members of our Catholick Church . And that we may take a tast of some few by name d d In Epist. ad Smyr . on our side was Ignatius , that so earnestly thirsted after martyrdome , who in ecclesiasticall matters aduanced a * * And we in those thing● which are proper to a Bishop , make none equall to a Bishop . Bishop euen aboue a King , who penned also certaine traditions of the Apostles , whereof he himselfe was a witnesse , least they should be quite forgotten . e e Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 30. Dam. in vit. Telesp . To. 1. con . c. stat. d. 5. On our side was that Anchorete Telesphorus , who commanded that the fast of Lent which was before instituted by the Apostles should be kept more strictlie . On our side was S. Ireneus , f f Lib. 3. c. 3. who proued that the Apostolike faith descended vnto vs by the succession and sea of Rome . On our side also was that high Bishop g g Euseb. 5. hist. 24. Victor , who by a generall Proclamation * * This is false , for he could not subdue it . kept the whole Countrie of Asia in due obedience , which Proclamation , though to some it seemed somewhat hard , but specially vnto this most blessed man S. Ireneus , no man yet attempted to deface as * * This is false , for many Bishops haue bitterly inueyed against Victor for this cause . forraigne authoritie . Polycarpus h h Euseb. 4. hist. 14. Suidas . was on our side that about the question of the keeping of Easter day , went and conferred with the sea of Rome , whose reliques after he was burned , the faithfull Christians at Smyrna gathered together , and gaue due honor vnto their Bishop , by obseruing yearely the day of his death , as an high and solemne feast . On our side were i i Euseb. 7. Hist. 2. S. Cornelius , and S. Cyprian , those golden paire of Martyrs , which were both very worthy Prelates , but the former was the greater , who when he was Bishop of Rome , abolished the Affrican errors . The latter also got great commendations through his loyall obedience which he shewed to his superior , and dearest friend he had in the world . On our side was Sixtus , who when he song Masse at the Altar was solemnely serued with seauen men of the Cleargie . On our side was S. Laurence , this mans Archdeacon , whom the aduersaries cancell out of their Calenders . To whom k k Prud. in Hym. de . S. Laur. vi . Aug. ser. de S. I aur. Ambros . lib. 1. off . cap. 4. lib. 2. off 28. Leo serm. in die S. Laur. Prudentius , a man that had been Consull in Rome about 1200. yeares ago prayed in this wise : O most glorious seruant of Christ , what power is giuen thee , and what authoritie is graunted vnto thee in heauen , the great ioy of the Romanes doe sufficiently shew vpon the obteining of such requests as they make vnto thee . Amongst the which number , I beseech thee mercifullie giue eare to me thy rude Poet that doth confesse vnto thee my sinfull thoughts , & also disclose my wicked actions , heare benignly , I pray thee , me thy humble suppliant Prudentius , that hath highly offended Christ my Sauiour . On our side l l Metaph. Ambros . ser. 90. tom. 3. & lib. 1. de Virg. Ado. Tae . in martyr . Euseb. 8. Hist. 27. were those most blessed virgins , S. Cecilia , S. Agatha , S. Anastasia , S. Barbara , S. Agnes , S. Lucia , S. Dorethy , and S. Katherine , who constantly kept their vowed chastitie against the tyrannie both of men and diuels . S. Helen was on our side , who was most famous for the finding of the crosse of Christ . S. Monocha the mother of S. Augustine was on our side , who when she lay on her death-bed most deuoutlie desired to be praid for after her death , Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 8. Ex Aug. lib. 9. con . cap. 7. vsque ad 1● . Hiero● . in Epist. Paul . Hiero● . in cap. Semp. Athanas . Ambros . in orat . fut . de Satyro Ioan. Diacon . Seu. S●lp . Metaph. Grae. lib. 2. Dial. and to haue the * * This was not the sacrifice of the Masse : reade the answere . sacrifice of the masse offred for her at Christs altar . S. Paula was on our side , who forsaking her faire pallace situated within the citie of Rome , and her goodly farmes abroade in the Countrie , went on pilgrimage by long iourneys euen vnto to the caue of Bethelem , where Christ lay crying in his cradle , there in solitarinesse to spend the residue of her time . On our side was S. Paulus , S. Hilarion , S. Antony , who liued in solitarinesse till they were old men . On our side was Satyrus , that was brother germain vnto S. Ambrose , who carrying about him in a stole that dreadfull hoast , and being in present danger of shipwrack , hoping assuredlie that he would protect him , lept into the raging sea and s●ome to land . On our side were S. Nicholas and S. Martin , who were both Bishops much exercised in watchings , cloathed altogether in haire-cloth , and fed with fasting . On our side was S. Benet , who was father vnto a great number of Monks . Ten yeares were not long ynough for me to recite this infinite number of Saints , neither do I heere make mention of them , whom before I placed among the Doctors of the Church . I do not forget my promise , that I would passe ouer things as briefly as I could conuenientlie : let him that would know more hereof peruse not only the large histories of auncient writers , but also much more rather the graue authors , which haue almost euery one of them written speciall bookes of the liues of the Saincts , for a remembrance to their posteritie : * * And you of al those , name me one Iesuit . then let him tell me what his opinion is of those most auncient Christians , Vide. 12. tom . Surij . and most blessed , of whether religion were they , of the Catholikes religion , or of the Lutherans religion ? * * After this manner Campian vseth to dispute . I call to witnes the throne of God , and that his tribunall seate , before which I shall stand to render an accompt of these my ten reasons , and of my said act in making my challenge , that either there is no heauen at all , which I and my adherents do detest , or that it belongeth properlie to such only as are of our religion , which thing we for our parts hold for sound doctrine . Now on the contrary side , if you thinke good let vs looke downe into hell , Damnati . where lye some burning in euerlasting fire . Who ? the Iewes : what Church are they against ? ours . Who else ? the heathen : What Church haue they most cruellie persecuted ? ours , who besides these ? the Turks : What Churches haue the pulled downe ? ours , who yet ? the hereticks : to what Church were they enemies ? to ours . * * The Catholike Church , of which your Church is no part . Forwhat Church I pray you hath alwaies withstood the gates of hell , Matth. 16. Judai . Eusch . 4. Hist. 5. Hieron . in Epist. ad Paul . & in Epist. ●●d Marcel . & passim in Epist. but ours ? When after the expulsion of the Iewes vnder Vespatian , and Titus his sonne , Christians increased at Hierusalem , O immortall God what comming of good people was there to the holie places that were there ! What wonderfull deuotion was there among all sorts of people to see that Citie of Hierusalem ! What zeale to see Christs Sepulcher , what desire to see the manger wherein Christ lay , what thursting after the sight of the crosse whereon Christ was nailed , what longing to behold all sorts of monuments there , in which the holie Church taketh as much delight , as doth a spouse in the garments laid off by her husband ! Vpon this began that mortall hatred and implacable of the Iewes against vs ; for euen at this day they * * But they complaine without cause , for they haue . no reason why they should be angrie with our ancestors . complaine , that our Ancestors were the cause of their Ancestors ouerthrow : as for Simon Magus , and the Lutherans , Ethnici . they receiued neuer ablow at their hands . Among the heathen there were many tyrants , who during their raigne for the space of 300. yeares , by fits at diuers times , inuented most bitter torments against Christians . Against what manner of Christians I pray you ? Leo serm. de D. Laurent . Truly against the Fathers of our faith and their Children . Marke well with your selues the speeches of this tirant , that broiled S. Laurence on a Gridyron : It now well appeares , Prud. in hym . de S. Laur. that this is the order and fashion in your sacrifice . This doctrine you all agree to , that Bishops must offer vp their sacrifice in plate of gold , and the people say , that the sacred blood smoketh out of your cups of siluer , and that ye haue tapers burning on golden candlesticks , during all the time of your night sacrifices . Also as common fame doth testifie , your brethren haue a speciall care to offer vp thousands of pounds , though they sell their lands to get the same , the lawfull heire being thus disinherited and brought to beggery , though his holie parents greatly complaineth for such shamefull sale of lands , as should by right discend to him from his grandfathers . This wealth lieth hid in some secret corners of your Churches , and you thinke it a great godlie deed to make your sweet babes goe naked : fetch out these treasures which thou hoordest vp by thy craftie perswasions , and wicked witchcraft , the which I say thou haddest in one darke hole or other : the commonweale , the Kings Eschecker , and the common treasure haue need thereof . That mony being imployed for souldiers wages , the generall lieutenant may be fully fraughted with souldiers . I vnderstand that this is an vsuall doctrine amongst you . Restore to euery man his owne , behold the Emperour acknowledgeth his owne physnomie stamped vpon his owne coine . Giue to Caesar that which thou knowest to be Caesars . Truly I demaund nothing but that which is iust . Thy God ( except I be deceiued ) cometh no money , neither brought he with him at his comming into the earth any golden gilderds , but ministred his commandements by word of mouth , being purslesse himselfe . Performe faith fullie that his doctrine which you openly preach abroad , restore your money willingly , content your selfe to be rich in words . * * Campian demonstrates his Church by the wealth and riches of it . A note of the Popish Church . What manner of man seemeth this to be ? against whom doth he thus rage ? Whose Churches , sacrifices , lights , ceremonies , and ornaments hath he gone about to abolish ? What Churches , golden goblets , and chalices of siluer and costlie gifts and rich stuffe enuied he at ? This man vndoubtedly doth hold on Luthers part . Gen. 10. For what other colour haue our mighty * * The Pope of Rome is that Nimrod . the mighty hunter of the Church . Nimrods pretended to couer their theft withall , when they robbed 1441 0536 V 3 Gods houses , and made hanock of Christs inheritance ? On the contrary part , what Church was it that Constantine the great , the very terror of Christs enemies , hath brought to quietnes , euen that selfe-same Church , ouer which the high 〈◊〉 Bishop Siluester was gouernour , Dam. in Syl. Zonaras . whom the said Emperour called out of the mount Soract , where he lay secretly for feare of persecution , that by the helpe of the said Siluester he might be * * This is false , for Siluester was dead many yeares before Constantine was baptised . baptised with our Baptisme : vnder what banner fought he , that he became so great a conqueror ? euen vnder the banner of the n n Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Con. c. 7 . 8.9 ●ozom . lib. 1. cap. 9. Crosse : who was his mother , that he attained ●o so great honor ? euen that blessed woman Saim Helen : what fathers took he part with ? with the Fathers for sooth of the Nicene Councell : what manner of men were they ? namely they were S. Siuester , S. Iulius , S. Athanasius , S. Nicholas : to whose prayers did he commend himselfe ? to the prayers of o o Athan. in vita S. Aut. S. Antony : what roome exacted he in the Councell ? * * This is false , for it was the chiefest and of beaten gold . the very lowest of all . Oh how much more Prince-like was he ; when he sate in this seate then they , that since that time ambitionsly haue made sale for a l●ttle , that is far vnfit for a King ! It were too long to declare euery matter in particular ; but by these two Emperors , wherof the one was our deadly enemie , the other was our most faith full friend , one may easilie coniecture of euery other circumstance , which are like to these afore spoken of . For as vnder the Tyrant our Catholike Christians , had a trouble some encrease , so vnder this Emperor through Gods great mercie , they were brought to a most happie end . Let vs looke a little into the Turkes affaires : * * It is manifest that the Turkes haue no lesse in creased by the helpe of the Pope , then by their owne strength . Mahomet and Sergius the Monke , that fell from his religion , by howling in the deepe pit of hell , oppressed both with their owne sinnes , and the sinnes of their posteritie . This monstrous and outragious beast , Vide Volat. Jouium . Aemil. lib. 8 Blond . lib. 9. de. 1. I meane the Saracens and Turkes , if they had not bin quailed and driuen backe heretofore by the orders of Knights , in our holy warfare and by the Princes and people that take our part : as for Luther , * * Hee hath good cause to be thankfull to the Pope of Rome . to whom it is reported , that Solyman the great Turke , for this cause gaue great thankes by his letters , yea and as for the Lutheran Princes , to whom the fortunate successe of the Turkes is but a laughing matter , as for them , I say , this ●aging furie , and most mischieuous to mortallmen , had before this time destroyed and ouerthrowne all Europe , and would haue occupied himselfe , as busily in pulling downe of Altars and signes of Christs Crosse , as euer Caluin was himselfe . Wherefore they are our peculiar enemies . Seeing that by our mens industrie , hitherto , they haue been kept backe from off Christian mens throates .

Let vs take a view of heretikes , Haretici . Clem. lib. 1. recog. Iren. lib. 1. cap. 2. Cyp. Epist. ad Iubatam . & l. 4. Epist. 2. Theodo●o de fab. haeret . & Aug. her 46. Epiph. haere 75. Socrat. lib. 2. c. 35. Hier. in Iou. & Vigil . Aug. her . 82. which are the verie dregges and bellowes , and fit food for hell fire . The first that commeth into my mind is Symon Magus : what did he ? * * This is false , reade the answere . he tooke from man freewill , he was still prating of faith only . The next that I remember was Nouatian . What of him ? he opposed himselfe to Cornelius the Pope of Rome . He was an enemy to the Sacramets of Perance , and holy Vnction . Thirdly , I thinke of Manes the Persian , who taught that * * He taught that Baptisme did auaile nothing at all . Baptisme was not a sufficient meane to worke our saluation . After him there started vp Aerius and Arian , who condemned prayers for the only , and was therefore forenamed the * * This was Aetius not Aetius . Atheist as well as Lucian was . Then followed Vigilantius , which would not permit men to pray vnto Saints , and Iouinian , who maintained marriage to be as excellent as virginitie : Finally there came after all the whole rable of heretikes , as Macedonius , Pelagius , Nestorius , Eutyches , Monothelites , Image breakers , and others ; to which number our posteritie will adde also Luther and Caluin : what of all these ? Euery one of them like carion Crowes , hatched al of one kind of egge , rebelled against the chiefe rulers of our Church , and by them were confounded and brought to naught . Let vs now leaue speaking of hell , to returne to the earth againe . Terrae . Sedes Apostolica . Ep. 162. Whither soeuer I shall cast mine eies , and incline my cogitation , whether I behold the Patriarkes , and Seas Apostolike , or the Bishops of other countries , or renowmed Princes and Emperours , or the first entrance of Christian religion , into euery nation , or any monuments of antiquitie , or the light of reason , or the comely sight of honestie . Vide Tert. de praes● Aug. lib. 2. de Doct. Christ . cap. 8. I find that all of them doe dutiful seruice , and speake fauourably for our religion : witnes hereof the Romane succession . In whose Church ( that I may say as doth S. Augustine ) * * While Augustine liued , the principaline of the Apostles chaire flourished in that Church . But that apostolike chaire is long agoe ouerthrowne . the principality of the Apostolike chaire , hath euer been in force : witnesses also hereunto , are the seas of the rest of the Apostles , to whom the name Apostolike most excellently agreeth . Because they were first erected by the Apostles themselues , or by those that heard them preach . Witnesses also are the Pastors of euery Church throughout the wide world , who , Terra disiunctissima . Hieron . in cat . scrip . eccl. & alij . though their abode was in diuers places , yet our religion was common to them also . As S. Ignatius , and S. Chrysostome liued at Antioch : S. Peter , Alexander , Athanasius and Theophilus at Alexandria ; Macarius and Cyril at Hierusalem , Proculus at Constantinople . Gregorie & Basil at Capadocia , Gregorie sirnamed Tha●maturgus in Pontus : Polycarpus at Smyrna : Iustinus at Athens , Dionysius at Corinth . Another Gregorie at Nissa : Methodius at Tyrus , Ephreenus in Syria , Cyprian , Optatus , Augustine in Africke . Epiphanius in Cyprus , Andrew in Creet , Ambrose , Paulinus , Gaudentius , Prosper , Faustus , Vigilius in Italie , I●encus , Martyrus , Hilarius , Eucherius , Gregorie of Toures , and Siluianus in France , Vincentius , Orosins , Heldefonsus , Leander and Isidorus in Spaine : Fugatius , Damanus , Iustus Mellitus and Bede in England . Finallie , lest I should seeme ambitious in reckoning so many names , what treatises or fragments of treatises so euer be extant , of those as in the Primitiue Church preached the Gospell , though in countries farre asunder , yet all of them doe deliuer vnto vs , one and the selfe-same faith * * This is most false . which we Catholikes doe at this present professe ; what cause ( good Christ ) could I alleadge , before thee for my example , but that thou mightest iustly exclude me altogether from thy blessed company , if I should prefer a number of hedge-creepers , both few in account , and also vnlearned , diuided amongst themselues in opinions , & of a ●●so lo●● befor● s●●●●y * * You ought not to hang your soule vpon men . light ●●●●pes of the Church ? Witnesses also are all Pri●●●s , Principes . Kings , Emperours and all their C●●●●-weales , the godlinesse of which Princes themselues , Vide C●p. To● . 〈◊〉 . de s●●ctis . and also the people vnder their iurisdiction and their good gouernment , both in times of peace and of marres , haue at the first grounded themselues vpon this sound rocke of our Catholik doctrine . What famous men out of the East might I heere recite vnto you that beare the name of Theodosius ? what worthy men out of the West , of the name of Charles ? what Edwards out of England , what Lewesses out of France , what Hermingildes out of Spaine , what Henries out of Saxony , what Winceslaes out of Bohemia , what Leopaldes out of Austria ? What Steuens out of Hungarie , what Iosephats out of Indie ? And finally what noble gouernours of many Empires , and Rulers of particular Countries , throughout the whole world , who by their good example , by their force , by their lawes , by their continuall care , by their charges , haue maintained our Church ? For so hath Esay prophesied , Esay . 48. Kings shall be thy foster Fathers , and Queenes shall be thy nurses . Giue eare , O Queene Elizabeth most mightie Princes , to your Maiestie this great Prophet telleth this tale , he teacheth you precisely , what you haue to doe . And I tell you plaine that one heauen cannot containe * * You tell vs this thing most foolishly . Caluine and these Peeres . Let your Maiestie therefore take part with these honorable Princes , that you may shew your selfe a condigne heire vnto your noble auncesters , answerable vnto your excellent wit , correspondent to your profound knowledge , worthie of high commendations , and finallie fit for your royall dignitie . Onely this I indeuour as touching your Maiestie , and will indeuour whatsoeuer become of me , against whom , as though I were your deadly enemie , these fellowes do so often threaten hanging on the gallowes : ô welcome sweet crosse to me , ô welcome , I say , ten thousand times sweet crosse of mine ! the day will come ( most soueraigne Lady and Queene Elizabeth ) euen that day I say will come , which shall ●●●dently s●t before your Maiesties eyes whether of the two haue more sincerely loued you , the * * Shee hath long agoe and very sufficiently perceiued , that how greatly your society hath loued her . Fie away varlates ! societie of Iesuites or Luthers progenie . Nationes ad Chri●●●● tra●●●● . I go forward , there will witnesse with vs all coasts and quarters of the world , wherein the ●●angelicall trumpet hath beene sounded euer since Christs natiuity . Was this , thinke you , an easie matter to shut the mouthes of idols , and to translate the kingdome of God vnto the Gentiles . Luther speaketh of Christ , and we Catholicks speake also of Christ . Is Christ then * * He is diuided by you . diuided ? 1. Cor. 1. no surely , but either we preach a wrong Christ , or else he . How then shall we know who preacheth Christ aright ? I will tell thee . Let him be true Christ , and on their side by whose bringing in Dagons necks were broken . 1. Reg. 5. That Christ which is on our side was well content to vse the seruice of men of our Church , when hee expelled out of the harts of so many people , such a number of Iupiters , Mercuries , Dianes , Phebades , and an horrible darke rabble and lamentable hellishnes wherewith many in former time were oppressed . I haue not respit to fetch matter out of farre Countries . Let vs then consider of such as either border vpon vs , or else are familiar with vs at home . All these that follow sucked into their breasts either no faith at all , or the selfe same faith vndoubtedly which we professe , that is , the Catholick faith ; namely the Irish men from S. Patrick , the Scots from Palladius , and the English men from S. Austen , who were all consecrated Bishops at Rome , sent from Rome , and alwaies vsed great reuerence towards Rome . Cumulus testium . The matter is manifest ; I run forward : witnesses hereof are all Vniuersities , witnesses all written lawes , witnesses are the common manners of all people euery where in their owne countries , witnesses are the fashions of chusing Emperours , and the solemne ceremonies vsed in their Coronation , witnesse are the auncient rites exercised in the annointing of Kings , witnesses are the orders practised in dubbing of Knights , and their very * * Cloakes , cloakes . Also witnesses 〈◊〉 the Church windowes , Church windowes , gates of Cities , houses , all manner of things great and small , are wonderfull testimonies . witnesses are the peeces of money , witnesses are the gates & houses of euery Citie , witnesses are the worthie workes and vertuous liues of our au●●●st●rs ; finally , witnesses are all manner of things both great & small , & all kind of orders , that neuer any other religion but our catholick religion that euer took any deep roote vpon the face of the earth . When I saw my selfe guarded with all these helps , and felt my selfe comforted with the consideration thereof , I thought it a point of insolent folly , to forsake the great companie of all these good Christians , and to ioyne fellowship with the veriest ra●●hels that liue : therefore I confesse that I was greatly animated and vrged vnto this scholasticall combate ; wherein , vnlesse the saints be driuen out of heauen , and proud Lucifer recouer heauen againe , I cannot take the faile . Wherfore I trust , M. Chark , who hath conceiued so euill opiuion of me heretofore , will yet now shew me a more fauorable countenance , in that I had rather commit in trust this sinfull soule of mine , which Christ hath so dearely bought , to a safe and certaine way , and vnto the Kings high way , then hang it vpon the rocks and bushes of Caluines diuellish doctrine .

The Conclusion .

HEere haue you ( most flourishing men of both the Vniuersities ) this my slender gift , composed at vacant times as I trauelled : I minded herein both to acquit my selfe before you of arrogancie , and to answere your expectation , why I had so great a trust in this cause , and in the meane while to giue you a taste of some reasons to find you eccupied vntil you may be inuited to take my part in the Schooles , and to forsake the aduersaries . If you iudge it to be right and reason , if you thinke it a safe thing for you , if you thinke it to be an honest point that * * It is as ment that Luther and Caluin should be so accounted of , as the Pope . Luther and Caluine should be taken for the true Canon of Scripture , for the true meaning of the holie ghost , for the rule of the Church , for a Schoolemaster ouer all Councels and Fathers , and lastly for a God , and therefore to be beleeued before all witnesses and ag●● . There is no cause then at all why I should conceiue any good hope of your indifferencie , either in perusing of these my ten reasons , or else in giuing eare vnto me if I might be allowed to dispute . But if you be such men as I haue alwaies perswaded my selfe that you were , I means wise Philosophers , very circumspect , and embracers of truth , simplicitie and modestie , enemies to rashnes , fables , and sophistical cauilling ; then I doubt not but you which now spie a little light at a narrow chinek , will quicklie see the day light in an open place : freely and franckly I will let you vnderstand of that which the loue I beare you , the danger you stand in , and the weightinesse of the cause requireth . It is well knowne to the diuell that you shall see the truth of this cause , if euer you begin to cast vp your eyes . For what a senselesse part were it to preferre such as Hanmer and Charke before the antiquitie of all Christendome ? * * As though Poperie had no baites by which it intangleth the professors of it . But there be certaine pleasant baits in Luthers doctrine , wherewith he inlargeth his kingdome , with which baites he being first caught himselfe , hath intangled as many of your coat , as bite at the same baits . For what are these baits ? forsooth gold , vaineglory , delicate fare , and Venus games . Despise them ; for what are they else but the very off-scumme of the earth , a loude blast of wind , delicate wormes meate , and faire dunghils ▪ I say regard them not , for Christ is rich , who will not faile , but finde you all things necessary . Christ is a King , and will adorne you . Christ is well stored with daintie fare , and will satisfie your appetites . Christ is most beautifull , and will plentifully bestow vpon you great store of all felicities : adioyne your selues as souldiers vnto this Captaine , that so gallantly goeth on warfare , that like most learned men indeed , and of most valure , with him at the last day you may triumph for the victorie which you haue obtained . Fare you well . From the large Citie of the wide word .

WILLIAM WHITAKERS . The answere to the tenth Reason , which is all manner of Witnesses .

CAmpian , you are now low drawn and doe plainely bewray your want and desperate beggerie . Hitherto haue you found no place of sure footing , and therefore now you haue resolued to wander and runne thorough whatsoeuer is in the world . So one while you flie alost into heauen , by and by you slippe downe to hell : after you visit the Iewes , Pagans , Turkes , Heretikes , Lands , Seas Apostolike , Nations and Countries farre remote , searching diligently for any monument of your superstition . I am sorrie and ashamed on your behalfe , whom I see painefully busied about meere trifles . For what a witles kinde of reasoning is this ; first to recken vp the Saints in Heauen , and say , these are ours ? Then to number vp the damned , Iewes , Gentiles , Turkes , Heretikes , and affirme those are the enemies of our Church ? To rehearse those Countries that haue been conuerted to the faith of Christ , and conclude by and by , these are of our Religion ? would you take this man to bee well in his wits , compassing Heauen , Earth and Hell so childishly , a a DVR . Jf heere he any thing ridiculous , then may you laugh at the Prophet , who a● speedily runnes ouer the whole world . And S. Paul tooke a testimony for a truth out of the beathen Poet , Act. 17 . 2● . WHIT. pag. 856. Who knoweth not that God may be knowne by his creatures , & religion illustrated by nature vncorrupt ? but what nature , I pray you , hath taught Camptā thus to iudge of the heauenly spirits and the damned soules , and of the whole fr●me of things ? can he learne by nature that those who haue professed the Popish religion , doe now enioy heauenly happines , and that they who dislike it are tormented in hell ? These weapons of Campian were those that impure Symmachus opposed Christian religion withall , Ambros . Epist . 30. Prudent . contra Symmachum . ridiculouslie , and impertinently taking vnto himselfe , what he liketh , and reiecting the rest ? A worthie cauil , fit for none but Iesuites , which when a man hath by one negatiue discharged , can neuer be proued by their peruerse sect and whole societie . These dreames of yours ( Campian ) are vnworthie any answere , one word of denial confutes this whole Chapter . I will not bestow much time in answering this Sophisme , so vnhansomely framed , and patched together ; it shall suffice lightly to passe , and only touch euery thing in a word . First therefore you alledge the prophecie of Esay , of a straight way wherein the simple should not erre . b b DVR . You shew your ignorance in the Prophet ; for he speaketh not of the way to the Church , but of the Church it selfe , which is the high way to heauen .

WHIT. pag. 857. Howsoeuer you interpret the way , it maketh neither much for me , nor for you . The question is who shall find out that way and walke in it , for it is not discerned of all , because it is a plaine way , nor held of all , because it is a right way : but he that hath learned Christ is he that walketh in this way without any error , though he be but sillie and vnskilfull . DVR . Jf this be so , then can it not be the true Church , which conteineth sinners and men polluted . And the Fathers by this place exclude only those who are not clensed by Baptisme . WHIT. pag. 858. The Prophet speaketh of the Church of the elect and Saints , because he saith vers. 8. The polluted shall not passe by it : and vers. 20. the redeemed only , whose ioy shall be euerlasting : but the visible Church conteineth those which are impure , whom Christ hath not redeemed , and whose ioy shall perish . As for Baptisme it purgeth none but such as lay hold of the promise of free iustification by Christ , as Tit. 3.5 .

Heere the Prophet describes the entrance into Christs Church , viz. that it should be ready , plaine and easie . But this way brings vs not to your Church : c for of this way the Prophet reports , that no prophane man , no Lion or cruell beast shall be found in it ; whereas all your waies are compassed with polluted men , raging beasts , Lions , Beares , Leopards , Dragons , Diuels ; and in conclusion , they leade miserably bewitched men , vnto wofull destruction . As for vs , we treade that way , which Christ and his Apostles haue traced out before vs , wee auoyde your erroneous and strange waies , because it is the way of sinners , that you s●●●d in ; which way whosoeuer tread● , Psal. 1.1 . Rom. 3.17 . the way of pe●ce they haue not knowne . First , vnderstand the path well your selues , and then direct the way vnto vs .

Let vs ( say you ) as●●●d into heauen : I feare you Iesuites haue no place there , Heauen is for Christians , not Iesuites . But suppose your selues for the time to be in heauen , what followeth ? Let vs behold ( say you ) the Martyrs ▪ 33. Bishops of Rome slaine together , the Vniuersall Pastors , companies of the faithfull , all holie Saints . Well , suruey ( Campian ) heauen it selfe , and all the heauenly host , looke well in all the parts , and coasts of it whiles you list , you shall not find there ( vpon my word ) one Iesuit not one Papist ; for none shall stand in Mount Zion with the Lamb , Apoc. 14.1 . that haue receiued the marke of the beast , or belong vnto Antichrist . But in heauen are 33. Bishops of Rome , and many more , I doubt not ; but of all these , name me one , if you can , of your religion , whom you may iustly claime as yours . Those were holy and faithfull Bishops which shed their bloud for the name of Christ . But your Popes for these many hundred yeares , what else haue they done , but persecuted Christ , and murthered his true seruants ? If those 33. Bishops be in heauen ( as doubtlesse they are ) how many late Popes could I recken vp , which possibly cannot be where they are , in all things they are so vnlike them ? You pick out a few , let vs see who these are : Ignatius , say you , was ours ; why I pray you ? He thought no man equall to the Bishop in causes ecclesiasticall , not the King himselfe , and left in writing certaine Apostolike traditions ; neither say we that any man is to be compared with the Bishop in such things as belong to his office : d d DVR . If these be so proper to Bishops , that they cannot belong to Kings , then , you being iudge , the Queene cannot be the head of the English Church . WHIT. pag. 160. We acknowledge no other head of the Church saue Christ . And Prince though they may not do any of th●se 〈◊〉 , yet they rule ouerthem , who doe and ought to command them , diligently to execute their offices ; which if they neglect , they ought to reproue , compell , and punish them , as we reade the good Kings of the Church Iewish and Christian haue euer done : and the reason hath no force , Princes haue no authoritie to preach , therefore they haue no authority to punish those who teach false doctrine to their people . He only ought to ouersee holy things , viz. instruction of the people , administration of the Sacraments , vse of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen . These are matters of great weight , and exceed the kingly authority ; yet are Kings aboue Bishops in wealth , honor , gouernment , maiestie , and they may lawfully both admonish them of their dutie , and restraine them when they offend . If Bishops herein would equall themselues with Kings it were too intolerable . As for the Apostles traditions which Ignatius hath left in writing , we receiue them so farre as they agree with the Apostolicall Scripture : if they dissent from those , we refuse them . The Epistles of Ignatius were most of them counterfet , as euery man may see : heere you rehearse many , and still the vndersong is , these are ours : Telesphorus ( say you ) Ireneus , Victor , Polycarp , Cornelius , Cyprian , Sixtus , Laurentius , are ours . But I affirme that all these do belong vnto vs : let vs then consider how you will perswade vs they are yours .

Telesphorus enioyned a more strict obseruation of Lent fast , appointed by the Apostles . e e DVR . But J proue it by these witnesses , Augustine , Hierome , Basil , Ambrose , Epiphanius , Clemen● . WHIT. pag. 862. And I proue the contrary by the Fathers . August . Epist. ●6 . writeth plainely that neither Christ not his Apostles ordained any certaine time for fastings . And so not Lent . Tertul. aduer. Psychicos : In times past Christians indifferently fasted , of their owne free will , as euery mans time and occasions required , and not by any command of new gouernment . Doth not this ouerthrow the necessary obseruation of Lent ? Chryso . in Mat. hom 47. freely confesseth that Christ did not command vs to imitate his fast . But what is Lent but an imitation of it ? Further , Montanus was the first who brought vp set solemne daies of fastings , Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 17. Finally , Ireneus in Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 26. sheweth that in the Primitiue Church , there was great variety about the keeping of this fast , and that this difference began not in his time only , but was long before . Therefore it is false that Christ and his Apostles appointed the fast of Fortie daies . I deny that the Apostles ordeined any such Len●en fast , or that Telesphorus , commaunded a more precise obseruation thereof . The Apostles were farre from ordeining , and Telesph●rus from reuiuing so great superstition .

Clemens his Constitutions where this is reported , are not sufficient authoritie . But if this fast were prescribed by the Apostles , I wonder how afterwards it was discontinued , so as it should bee necessarie for Telesphorus to enioyn the keeping of it more precisely , especially seeing such strife was in the Church about the celebration of Easter . The epistle of Telesphorus wherein he commaunds the 7. weekes fast , hath the same authority with the rest of your decretall epistles of your Pope , which were not framed by the most holy Bishops themselues , but coyned since by the most impudent Parasites of the church of Rome . Jren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Ireneus ( say you ) declared the Apostolike faith from the succession and sea of Rome . So he might well then : for as Ireneus elsewhere saith , They retained with the succession of Bishops , the gratious succession of truth : for succession is nothing worth without truth . Your Chaire and Sea hath Bishoply succession ; it hath not the succession of truth . Victor ( say you ) by his edict subdued Asia . He endeuored it indeed ( Campian ) but failed of his purpose : for being a man very passionate , he would needs excommunicate all such Churches of Asia as refused to keepe Easter according to the Romane custome . When he began thus insolently to abuse his authority , f f DVR . Neither Ireneus nor any other denied to Pope Victor this power to excommunicate the Churches of Asia .

WHIT. pag. 863. But Eusebius wri●eth lib. 5. cap. 25. that both Ireneus and many other Catholike Bishops sharpely reproued him for assuming that power .

Ireneus tamed and restrained him . As for the controuersie about Easter , Victor was so farre from composing and ending it , that it continued vnto the g g DVR By the same reason you may say the Councels decree preuailed nothing to endi●●● controuersie . WHIT. pag. 864. The reason is good , & proueth that when he could preuaile neither by examples , reasons , nor threatnings , that those Churches did not account Pope Victor for the head of the Church . And though after that Councell of Nice , some Churches obserued the Passeouer after another manner , yet the most Churches followed the iudgement and authoritie of the Councell . So the Councell preuailed more then the Pope could doe . Councell cell of Nice . You may see how well Victor subduer all Asia .

Polycarpe in the question about Easter went to Rome , Smyrna gathered his reliques . Wonderfull reasons . Polycarpe went to Rome to consult with Anycetus about Easter , and Smyrna gathered his reliques ; ergo Polycarpe is yours . Doth not the learned Vniuersities make you ashamed of this childish sophistrie ? h h DVR . Enuie maketh you forge an vntruth . And whil . for eunie you pine away a● the honor which is giuen of Christians to the reliques of Martyrs , you imitate the Jewes and the Diuell . WHIT. pag. 865. I haue spoken neither lesse nor more then Eusebius hath written who than liued ▪ After we had gathered his banes being more precious then pearles and gold , we buried them where it was thought sit . And as for the reliques of Sai●ns , I enuy them not , the Saints themselues I euer honorablie remember . But that the reliques of Saints were worshipped with religi●us honor , as they are in your Church , you shall neuer be able to proue . His bones indeed were gathered by the Church of Smyrna , not to worship them , but to bury them , as Eusebius in the same place recordeth . But why are Cornelius and Cyprian yours ? forsooth , because Cornelius abolished the ⁱ African error , and Cyprian had him in great reuerence . Oh wonderfull Iesuiticall Logick l l DVR . His supreame authoritia appeareth in this , because hee decreed that controuersie , being not the Bishop of Africke , but of Rome . WHIT. pag. 866. Saint Paul confuted many errors of the Churches of Galatia , Co●inth , Rome and diuers others , yet was hee neuer supreame Bishop . So did Augustine : But what error did he suppresse ? was it touching Baptisme by heretikes ; that he neuer could doe , but Cyprian and the Bishops of Africke constantly held it : which proued they neuer acknowledged that he had any such authoritie . who can chuse but be much moued with such strong reasons ? But let vs heare another .

Sixtus is ours : and why so ? Seauen of the Clergie ministred vnto him , while hee serued at the altar . Seauen Deacons helped Sixtus to celebrate the Lords supper , ergo Sixtus is yours . If this reason be of force , let him be yours hardly , I will not striue with you about him ; but herein is nothing why he may not as well be k k DVR . Pope Sixtus a Priest , offred vp the body and blood of Christ , Deacons assisting of him could not bee a Caluinist , but on our side . WHIT. pag. 868. As if we had no Deacons , who helpe the Minister when he celebrateth the Lords Supper ? ours as yours . Doth it become you ( Campian ) thus to trifle , thus to abuse our patience ? What followeth ? Laurence is yours : how so I pray you ? Our aduersaries haue cast him out of their Calouder . We remember him with reuerence as a saint , and a friend of Christ ; though we worship him not as God . But Prudentine prayed vnto him a thousand yeares agoe . Giue leaue ( Campian ) to a Poet , to vse poeticall auersions , from whence yet no strong reason can be drawne . But if Prudentius were something too superstitious , what is that to vs ? Now you recken vp virgins , C●cilia , Agatha , and others : but what haue they done why they should not be ours ? When the Tyrants examined them of their faith , they professed themselues Christians : if they were Christians , they were ours . But Helen , say you , was ours , who is euery way famous for finding the crosse of Christ . That which Ambrose reports of Helen , is very suspitious , and Golasius Bishop of Rome calleth these things that were bruted of the inuention of the crosse , Dill. 15. Sanct. Romana . new reuelations . But graunt that Helen found the Crosse , for it is not greatly materiall : Did she adore it ? for that is to the purpose . Heare what Ambrose saith : She found the stile , Ambros . in Orat. suneb . Theodos . she worshipped the King , not the wood certainly : for this is a heathenish error , and a vanity of the wicked . Wherefore though she found the Crosse , that is no reason to prooue her yours , seeing she worshipped not the crosse , as you do : for not finding , but adoring of the l l DVR . Wee giue not Latria diuine worship to the Crosse . WHIT pag. 868. The distinction will not excuse you , for you reach that the Crosse and the Image of Christ , is to bee worshipped with Latria or diuine worship , Thom. 3. part. 25. q. act . 3. & 4. which is so horrible and pernicious , that it exceedeth all the superstition of old Idolaters . Crosse makes a Papist .

Monica is ours , who at her death desired they should pray , and offer sacrifice for her at Christes altar . Monica desired not that the m m DVR . Shee desired to be sacrificed for , and what other sacifice is there , but the sacrifice of the Altar , to take away the hand a ritiue against vs . WHIT. pag. 870. That I haue answered in Augustines 〈◊〉 words , Confess . lib. 9. cap. 13. hee only desired to bee remembred at the Altar . It was a custome in the Church to make honorable mention of the Patriarkes , Prophets , Apostles , the Virgin Mary , the Martyrs , and Confessors , whom they neuer thought to be tormented in Purgatorie ; but your Masse is offered for those , whom you thinke as yet not to be freed from that fire , and to be in heauenly ioyes . And what a kind of sacrifice it was , Augustine sheweth in the same place , saying : Thy hand mayden kuit her soule by the bond of faith , to the Sacrament of that price of our redemption . He calleth then the Eucharist a sacrifice which taketh away the hand-writing against vs , because it is the Sacrament of that sacrifice . sacrifice of the Masse should be offred for her , for the forgiuenes and expiation of her sinnes , neither did Augustine either pray or offer for his mother in this manner . The desire of Monica was only this , that at the celebration of the Eucharist there might alwaies be a remembrance of her , insomuch as she assured herselfe she was one of the heauenly societie and communitie of saints . Augustine indeed prayed for his mother , I denie not ; but this his fact proceeded more of affection to his mother then for any necessitie . And the custome of prayer for the dead , which preuailed in many places , was not deriued from the authoritie of the scriptures , but only from an excessiue kind of loue and reuerence of them that liued , towards their friends that were dead . But that Augustine neuer beleeued his mother to be in Purgatory , that his prayers might releeue her there , it is manifest ; for thus he saith , Forgeue her Lord , forgiue her , I beseech thee , August . confess . lib. 9. cap. 13. enter not into iudgement with her ô Lord , yea ô Lord , I beleeue thou hast already graunted that which I desire , but accept ô Lord the freewill offrings of my mouth . But if we should graunt that both Augustine and his mother went a little awry , you cannot heere inferre that either of them are yours , for so much as we are not to giue censure of the Fathers ( in greatest causes ) by one particular iudgement , but by their continuall and constant opinion . You annex hereunto Paula and Paulus , Hilarian and Authony . I could recken sixe hundred Monks like vnto these , whereof not one was a Papist , none of them yours . All these were Christians louing solitarines , that they might more quietly intend the meditation of heauenly things . Compare not your Monks with these , which are of an other sort , and sect of Monks . These were holy , painefull , faithfull , full of good works : yours are impure , idle , idolatrous , deuourers , hogges , oxen , asles : how are those like ? But how shall it appeare vnto vs that Satyrus the brother of Ambrose was yours ? Being in danger , he leaped into the sea and swimming escaped by the strength of his faith . A goodly reason ; he was a good smimmer , ergo n n DVR But which of you did any such thing armed thing armed with the Caluinist Supper ? WHIT. pag. 872. And which of you armed with the Host , durst cast himselfe into the sea , vnlesse he had learned first to swimme ? And at that time Satyrus was not only saued , but also others who had not the Host . yours : other pretence you make none . Why Nicholas and Martinus should be yours , you shew no cause , for wearing haire-cloth , fasting and watching , are no marks of your Bishops . Benedict ( say you ) was the founder and father of the Monkish profession , therefore without doubt he must be yours . I could be content to leaue him , as too superstitious , yet can you not prooue that he was yours , or fauoured your religion in all or the most things . Heere you say you passe ouer thousands , Francis I thinke you meane , and Dominicke , and those huge swarmes of white Friers and blacke Friers : I freely bequeath them vnto you , and willingly suffer you to enioy them , and all such as were like them . They were not of that worth that we should need greatly to striue about them . You passe ouer the Doctors in silence , which you formerly remembred ; wherein I commend your wisedome , seeing to them you can make no claime without doing them too apparant wrong . You demaund of all those before recited , whether they were Catholicks or Lutheranes ; to which I will answere , when you haue shewed how Lutheranisme dissenteth from true Catholick religion . Luther taught no new doctrine , he restored and mainteined the auncient Catholicke faith . What though he was vnknowne vnto those auncient Fathers , as being himselfe of later yeares , yet the doctrine he brought was Euangelicall and Apostolick , which you had welnigh extinguished , which he restored to his former beautie and perfection . Answere me ( Campian ) this one thing ; of all those you haue named , what one was a o o DVR . But all these did euer consent in faith and differed only in such things which might be disputed without any hazard of faith .

WHIT. pag. 873. Be it granted , they did agree in matter of faith : why then do they not follow all one rule ? But S. Paul reproued the Corinthians agreeing in faith , because they attributed to their Ministers more then was meete , whilest one had deuoted himselfe to S. Paul , another to S. Peter , another to Apollo . What then shall be done to the Scotistes , Thom●stes & others ? are the names of Scotus , Thomas , Francis more holy and lawfull names in their disciples , then the names of S. Peter , S. Paul , and of Apollo ? Besides the difference is very great , not in the name , but in things also As thus Let the question be whether the Crosse and Image of Christ bee to bee worshipped with the same kind of worship that Christ is adored withall ? Doth not this appertaine to faith ? But error in this will be plaine Idolatrie . And yet you know some of the Schoolemen stand for it , some against i● : what of that question , which hath exercised al Churches and Schooles so long ; Whether the Virgin Marie had originall sinne , or was euer pure and without spot ? And infinite such differences I omit , being matter of faith .

Thomist , Scotist , Dominican , Franciscan , or Iesuite ? when you haue answered me touching those , I will answere as touching Luther . You call the Throne of God to witnes , that if there be any heauen at all , it is proper to you . In any case auouch this boldly and confidently ; though he that looks into your lines may wel thinke there is no heauen at all . For neither will you enter into heauen your selues , nor suffer those that would ; and the liues of those of your side are such , as are far fitter for hell then for heauen . I know not ( Campian ) what heauen you dreame of ; if you meane the eternall habitation of God , and his Saincts , I take God to witnes the maker of this palace , and all the heauenly citizens , that there no place can be for you Papists , false Catholicks , Iesuites . As you haue deuised a new faith whereby you must enter thither , so must you seeke a new heauen ; in this you may not be . God graunt you may returne at length into the right way that leadeth into heauen .

Now being fallen from heauen , The damned . you looke into hell . I wish ( Campian ) you could seriously view those infernall regions and places of the damned ; for though I do willingly thinke nothing but well of the dead ; yet I feare you should find too too many of them that haue flourished in your Church , in those places . Certainely ( to say nothing of the rest ) your later Popes , as those which were called by the names of Boniface , Innocent , Siluester , Gregory , Calixt , Vrbane , Alexander , Adrian , Pius , Leo , Paul , & almost all the rest ; were such , as hardly can any man thinke they could enter into heauen . And further , I call Christ the only teacher of heauenly doctrine to record , that such is your faith and religion , that who so maintaines it fullie and wholie , cannot raigne with Christ , nor be partaker of that heauenly life ; and therefore not Iewes only , Pagans , Turks , and notorious Heretikes are tormented in that fire that neuer goes out , but Papists also , of all Heretikes the most vile and odious . Infinite are the soules of Christian men , which haue been throwne headlong into this most wofull destruction these many hundred yeares by that Antichrist of yours , who alone hath more inlarged that infernall kingdome , then all Iewes , Nerves , Mahomets , Arians , Nestorians , Macedonians , Eutychians , and the rest . To you ( Campian ) I wish that saluation which consisteth in the true knowledge of God , and whom he hath sent Iesus Christ , and desire from my hart that now at length you will renounce that Romane Antichrist , with whom you haue conuersed , and returne vnto Christ the onely giuer of eternall life , from whom too long you haue banished your selfe .

But let vs consider what these damned ones will further your cause . Jewes . The Iewes you begin with , and heere you reckon Hierusalem , holy places , our Sauiours Sepulcher , the Manger , Crosse , and other 〈◊〉 from all which you cannot draw one argument for your purpose . I denie not , but great concourse of people thronged vnto the Citie , partly to heare and see the Apostles whiles they liued , and also to behold those places , where Christ the Sonne of God had conuersed ; and at Ierusalem were many things , which might moue and perswade men to goe thither , that were any thing curiously inclined . And although the Church then was too much addicted to these obseruations , and as a Spouse exceedingly delighted with any remembrance of her deceassed husband , yet was she then farre from those superstitious p p DVR . Wee doe but imitate our fore fathers , who did such things not of curiosity but religiously , Hier. Epist. ad Macel & Pailon . August . Epist. ad Clerum & Pop. Hipp.

WHIT. pag. 878. But Christ saith , Joh. 4.21.23 . If then I may worship God with great frui●e in mine owne countrie , I see not why I should go to Hierusalem or any other place on Pilgrimage . And if I haue the authoritie of the Scriptures , obiect not vnto mee Hierom , or Augustine , or any other , whom I cannot allow to speake without Scripture against Scripture . And as for Fathers , know you not that Gregorie Nyssen hath with pregnant reason confuted all superstitious peregrinations ? w●it not Bernard ; Monkes must search for the heauenly not earthly Hierusalem , which they must goe vnto not by their feete , but by affections ?

pilgrimages , and dotings on Images , which with you Papists is now vsuall .

Neither was this often recourse of Christians into those places the cause of the Iewes hatred vnto them , as you vntruly surmise ; but the Gospell was the true cause of difference betwixt them and vs . Rom. 11.28 They vrge Moses ; wee teach that Moses must giue place to Christ ; q q DVR . They hate vs not so much for our faith and profession , as because wee haue spoiled them of their kingdome and Priest-hood , and haue cast them out of their countrie . WHIT. pag. 877. But what Christian euer spoiled the Iewes of their kingdome , or thus expelled them ? Did Caligula , Titus , or Adrian destroy the Iewes for the religion of Christ ? And if they hated you , because you haue bereft them of their Priest-hood , why not vs for the Gospell , which teacheth that the Priesthood is translated from the posterity of Aaron vnto Christ ? from hence only proceeds their hatred vnto vs : but you are odious vnto them in many respects ; r r DVR Many Jewes haue become Catholikes , but not Caluinists , as Jeuer heard of . WHIT. pag. 878. We desire they might be made Christians not Caluinists , as our Churches hath many of them , I will 〈◊〉 you one , of whom it were strange you should not haue heard , Emanuell Tre●●lius a Iew borne , being brought to the religion of Christ , whom Caluin loued dearely , and his Catechisme he translated into the Hebrew tongue . your manifold idolatries continually hindering them from receiuing the Gospell of Christ . Remoue your idols , that we all that are called Christians , may worship God in spirit and truth . The Iewes then will ioyne themselues vnto vs , and will speedily in great multitudes betake themselues to the sheepfold of Christ . The Iewes complaine they haue been destroyed by your Auncestors ; whom meane you , the Romanes who raced the Citie vnder the conduct of Titus ? These were enemies of the faith of Christ : will you be their posteritie , or what other Auncestors haue you , that haue been author of so great calamitie vnto the Iewes ? They haue , I graunt , many things in their religion , which will euer alienate them from you : yet in many respects the Iewes are much beholding vnto you ; so as vnlesse they will incurre the suspition of great vnthankfulnes , they must loue you againe deseruedly . For you giue them leaue to vse their auncient Ceremonies , and that in Rome , and freely to vtter their blasphemies against Christ without blame ; so they pay tribute , they haue impunitie for all their sacriledges and blasphemies . The Lutheranes ( say you ) neuer opposed themselues against them , neither did they euer receiue any damage from the Iesuites . Heathens . You proceed to Heathens , among whom you affirme those were most violent which deuised the most grieuous torments for Christians . I will easily graunt , that those Tyrants that killed and murthered the Christians for the space of 300. yeares , were violent and outragious aboue measure . What of this ? These ( say you ) that were thus drawne vnto all kinds of torment that could be deuised , These were the fathers and children of our faith . Nothing lesse ( Campian : ) this should haue bin soundly proued , not barely affirmed . No likenes or affinitie of faith or works can be found betwixt you and them , so farre are they from being your fathers , or you their children . For as our Sauiour said to the Iewes , If you were the children of Abraham , Ioh. 8.39 . you would do the works of Abraham ; so if these had been your fathers ( as you say ) & you their children , you should haue resembled them as your fathers . But beware ( Campian ) lest that which followes agree more fitly vnto you ; You are of your father the Diu●ll . Joh. 8.88 . These holy Fathers if they were now liuing , would disclaime you from being their of-spring , so little you resemble them in any thing . Be ashamed at length to call your selues their posteritie , from whom you haue so fouly degenerated ; or if the name please you , indeuour that it may be proper vnto you . But to what purpose make you mention of that Tyrant that broyled Laurence on a Gridyroul and why repeate you all these verses out of Prudentius ? He speakes indeed of gold and siluer and torches ; what of all this ? Torches were needfull in the night season , at which time the Christians then vsed to meete , because they durst not assemble on the day , but to s s DVR . Yet was this a most auncient custome : as diuers do testifie , and they were kindled then to shew that the sight of faith ought to bee kindled in the mind .

WHIT. pag. 879. That which was done in the night , came in time to be done at noone day , I deny not : but I inquire by what Scripture , or what reason : as for your inuented mysterie , I say this is the way to fill all places with ●ignes , figures , and foolish mysteries . But I can easily pardon you , whose ignorance and blindnes of mind is so great , that no light is sufficient for you .

light candles ( as you do ) at noone dayes , is meere madnes . The accusation laid against him by the Tyrant , of gold , siluer , plate , and summes of money , was t t DVR . Yea your answere is false and fained for it was true which the Tyrant obiected to Laurence . WHIT. pag. 880. Is it like that the Church being vnder Tyrants could abound with such riches of siluer and gold ? But at the very same time their pouertie appeareth . For Gratian de Co●sp●●ra . Dist. 1. c. v●s● . bringeth in Boniface affirming that in time past they had golden Priests , and wooden Chalices . And Xepherinus the sixteenth Bishop of Rome , did ordeine that Masse should bee celebrated in dishes made of glasse . Pope Vrb●●e was the first who made all the ministring dishes of siluer , and so in this as in other things , by successe of time the glorie of Churches increased . forged . He had heard that the Christians had a great masse of gold and siluer , and concealed treasure , and being exceeding earnest after it , he sends for Laurence , and commaunds him to bring him that money . But where ( Campian ) was the plate of gold and siluer which he brought vnto the Tyrant ? what Cups , vessels or treasures did he bewray . The Church did not then abound in wealth , neither had they then such plentie of golden basons , siluer chalices , costly hangings , or any other great and pretious treasure . They had then woodden dishes , but golden Bishops and Priests ; but now ( as Boniface said truly ) we 〈◊〉 golden vessels , Bonifac. de Consc. dist. 1. vasa . woodden Priests ; neither doth he therein play the Lutheran● , as you play the Papist , Campian . These Nimrods & Church-robbers came not out of Luthers schoole ; those that made greatest spoile of the Church came from you , not vs .

Against this Tyrant you oppose Constantine , and make a needlesse digression in his commendation , rather to fill vp roome , then frame a reason . For to what end rehearse you these things ; Constantine quieted the Church , was baptized by Siluester Bishop of Rome , vsed the signe of the crosse , had Helen to his mother , ioyned himselfe to the Fathers of Nice , commended himselfe to the prayers of Anthony , chose the lowest place in the Synod , ergo , what will you inferre ? From this loose ware cannot you euince your Church to be the true Church , vnlesse you straine them very violently . Constantin●● indeed brought peace vnto the Church in her most troublesome time , and adorned and honored it with all the preferments and possessions he could , and since his time , as she increased in wealth , so she decreased in piety . Whereas you say , that Constantine sent for Siluester from Soracte , that he might be baptized by him with our baptisme , you might better haue said , that Siluester was fetcht from heauen to baptize Constantine , for Siluester died many yeares before Constantine was baptized , as is manifest out of u u DVR . You know the first of your authors and witnesses was an Arian ; and him the rest follow . WHIT. pag. 881. It is incredible to thinke hee would lie in so famous a thing , which might so easily be proued to the contrarie . And if he had been baptised at Rome , as you say , it is like the other three would ha●● come to the knowledge of it by some meanes , & haue preferred the credit of the thing , before the lie of Eusebius . As for your witnesses they are not to be compared with these of ours . Eusebius , Socrates , Theodorus , Z●zomen , Euseb. lib. 4. de vita Constant . Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 39. Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 31 Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 34. who haue recorded the baptisme of Constantine to haue been not whiles he was yong , but in his age , not by Siluester of Rome , but by Eusebius of Nicomedia , an Arian Bishop . Now Siluester was extreame old when Constantine was a yong man . He vsed the signe of the crosse which he had seene in the ayre as an Ensigne , declaring himselfe thereby the souldier of Christ , and an enemy of Tyrants . But that he worshipped or adored this crosse , you shall neuer approue . As concerning his * * DVR . What can bee spoken more foolishlie ? WHIT. pag. 881. And yet what is my follie , which was not the follie of Eusebius and Sozomen : for Eusebius who was present at the same Synod , writeth that Constantine in the first rancke sate downe in a golden chaire . And Sozomen saith there was a throne prepared for him , and that a great one , and aboue all the other . place in the Councell it skilleth not greatly : for what if he chose the lowest seate amongst the Bishops ? Euseb. lib. 3. de vita Constant . Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 19. but you thinke he did it rather forced by necessary dutie then moued by voluntarie humilitie : marke then what Eusebius writes . When he was come to the chiefe place , he stood vp in the middest of the assemblie , and there , when a little seate made of gold was brought for him , he sate downe . Heere you see that Constantine sate in the highest place , a seate of gold , which was the chiefest , and aboue all the rest , as Z●zomen relates . But these your proofes are passing strange , they strengthen the cause of your Pope excellently well .

Now you passe forward vnto the Turks , Turkes . wherein you do too manifestly bewray your ignorance in historie . For the Turkish gouernement neuer lesse preuailed , then since Luther began to publish the Gospell : Before he did ouer-run , and like a troublous sea breake into all Countries , with a furious and vnresisted violence . But since Luther like a good husbandman began to sow the seed of the Gospell , this raging sea hath as it were retired or stood still , and conteined it selfe within his owne bounds . Vicuna was kept by the Lutheranes , and assaulted by Solyman , but he returned with losse and with shame ; and prooue if you can , that euer the Christians became weake , or the Turks stronger by their default . The Letters which you pretend , as written from Solyman to Luther , might with better reason haue bin sent to the Pope : for the Turks are beholding to none more then your Pope , as they well know ; and vnlesse they will be vnthankfull , they will euer acknowledge it . For if as our Sauiour Christ saith , a kingdome diuided against it selfe cannot stand , then the breaking of the strength of the Empire , and weakning the power of Christians , and consequently strengthning the Turks , all must be imputed to him which rent and diuided the Romane and Christian Empires , and of one kingdome made two : As long as the prouinces and dominions of the Empire were vnited , we were strong ynough against the Turks ; but after Pope Leo the 3. diuided the Empire , the Emperour of Constantinople which before had much ado to resist the Turke , was now no longer able to sustaine the burthen , wanting the greatest part of his Empire . There is then no reason why the Turke should thanke Luther , but the Pope rather , as he hath good cause . It were too long to rehearse all the intercourse which hath passed betwixt the Pope and the Turke : let vs now heare the conclusion . They are ( say you ) onely professed enemies to vs . Certainely they haue infested them of the Greeke church more then the Latine . So that if they be the best Christians that are most persecuted by the Turks , the Grecians must goe before you . Whereas you adde something of Altars and Images , know you that the Idolatry of your Church is so great , that the Turks themselues are ashamed , and therefore they breake , and euill intreate your Images and Idols wheresoeuer they find them .

Now you come to Hereticks , the lees , bellowes , Heretikes . and fewell of hell fire . As long as there wants no Papists this fire will want no fewell . The first you meete with is Simon Magus . Indeed your Church is something more indebted to this Simon then the other : but what of him ? He denied freewill vnto man , and bragged of faith alone . Where finde you that ? tell vs Campian , for this is not affirmed by Ireneus or Clemens in the places alleaged ; he thought that all things came to passe by destinie , and an ineuitable necessitie , whereby he vtterly abolished mans freewill : x x DVR . If you be a Caluinist , then this must needs be your doctrine , when as Caluin had so taken away all freedome , that he hath brought a necessitie greater then Stoickes fate . WHIT. pag. 882. I am a Christian , you a Iesuite ; Caluin , as you wel know , neuer tooke away the freedome of will , vnlesse you reason thus : the will of man is not free in good things , before it be regenerate by the spirit of God , therfore there is no freedome of the will at all ; which verily hath no strength of consequent in it . We hold no such opinion . Neither did he boast of sole faith ( as you say : ) but this was his opinion , that from the doctrine of Iustification by grace and faith , he let loose the raines to all impietie & dishonestie : where do we defend any such things ? Nouatianus would himselfe be Bishop of Rome , and opposed himselfe to Cornelius the lawfull Bishop , hoping by force to get the Bishoprick . What is this to vs ? But he was an enemie to the two Sacraments of penance and extreme vnction . y y DVR . It was not for this , but because he tooke away the Sacrament of Penance , in which Priests do pardon sinne . WHIT. pag. 882. Whether Penance was a Sacrament or no , was not the thing in question betwixt Nouatus and the Catholikes , but whether there was any place for repentance left vnto those that did sinne , that the Minister might assure them of remission of sins , if they repented : we grant that this power is giuen to the Ministers of the Gospell ; therefore we are far from the error of Nouatus . He denied pardon and repentance to them that fell in persecution . Herein he was an enemie of repentance . Our case in farre different , which exclude no true penitent from hope of pardon . Manos wholie reiected baptisme , as vnprofi●able and not necessarie . Do we affirme any such thing ? We z z DVR . You take from Baptisme all power to remit sinnes and confirre grace as the Manic●es doe . And yee Caluinists deny that the deed done doth confirre grace to them who beleeue . WHIT. pag. 883. We beleeue and teach that in Baptisme sins are forgiuen , which the Manichies vsually deny . Therefore we differ much from them . And as for the inuention of the deed done we reiect it , euen in those who are indued with faith , for what neede haue wee of any such inuention , that grace is conferred and giue● by the deed done , if faith be not wanting ? denie ( indeed ) that baptisme confers grace to the vnbeleeuer by the worke wrought : he denied it to be profitable at all : are we like him ? Austen and Epiphanius accompt Aerius for an Heretick , so did few of the auncient Fathers besides these . And if to condemne praiers for the dead , Hierou . ad Euag. & in 1. Tit. and make equall a Priest with a Bishop be hereticall , what shall be Catholick ? Hierome was altogether of Aerius his mind , about equalitie of Priests ; for he determines them to be equall with Bishops by Gods law . This was not that Aerius , Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 35. whom they vsually called Atheist , but an other , Aetius ; the likenes of the names deceiued you . To that you obiected concerning Vigilantius and Iouinian , an answere is formerly giuen ; a a DVR . You speake wit●ilie , but you must of necessity do the one . WHIT. pag. 884. If they haue defended any thing against the Scriptures , they are heretikes ; but if not , they cannot bee condemned by the iudgement of any Church . for my part , I neither meane to defend them , nor can I greatly accuse th●m . If they were hereticks , conuince them of some error they held against the scriptures : Hieromes passions can make no man an heretick . Now you bring in the swarme of hereticks , Macedonians , Pelagians , Nestorians , Eutychians , the M●●otholites , and Iconomachs . These first we hate as hell it selfe ; those last haue committed nothing deseruing the name of hereticks . To set vp and worship Images is hereticall , but not to ouerthrow them . What you iudge touching Luther and Caluin● is nothing materiall : whiles they liued they nothing regarded you , now they are dead they despise you , what will you conclude at length from this hereticall companie ? A●● these ( you say ) forsooke the gouerment of your Church , and were ouerthrowne by them . Nay Campian , these were your forefathers , and you their progenie and successors : for your monster of Poperie hath been hatched by the impure commixtion of all heresies .

But you now appeare out of hell , Lands . and are come to land , and wheresoeuer you cast your eyes or thoughts , All is your own ( as you say ) all subiect themselues , and subscribe to your religion . Me thinks I see that brainsick Merchant , who standing by the sea , and beholding the ships , cried out , all he saw was his owne ; otherwise such senselesse dreames could not proceed , but from a wit and iudgement exceedingly weakned . Sedes Apostolica . For ( say you ) the Romane succession witnesseth , in which Church ( as Austen speaketh ) the Primacie of the Apostolike chaire hath alwaies had the preeminence . Many causes there were , why speciall accompt in times past should be made of the church of Rome , especially for that Rome was the seate of the Empire , as approued in the Councell held at Constantinople . Concil. Constantinop. 1. cap. 5. b b DVR . Why then may not he that is Bishop of this Church be ouer all other Bishops , and so the Prince of Priests , the chiefe Priest , and supreame head of the rest ? WHIT. pag. 885. Because authoritie and dominion is not proper to them who are more excellent then others ; which may bee shewed by infinite examples . Who can be ignorant that the tribe of Iudah was the chiefe , the first and the Prince of the other tribes ? will it therefore follow that the head of the principall family in this tribe had authoritie ouer all other tribes ? Aristotle was accounted the prince of Philosophers , Homer of Poets , Hippocrates of Physitians , Apelles of Painters : did they therefore exercise authoritie ouer all the rest of the same profession ? So though for a long time together the church of Rome for many respects was excellent among the rest , yet it neuer had domination and rule ouer the rest of the Churches of Christ . I graunt therefore tha●●his Church was accompted the supreme , chiefe , greatest , and the principall , preferred before other Churches . Trow you hence to conclude , the Bishop of Rome is the chiefe and principall Bishop or head of the Church ? Concil. Carthag. 3. cap. 26. Dist. 99 prima sedis . Austen himselfe forbid it in the Councell of Carthage , viz. that the Bishop of the chiefe Sea should not be called Prince of Priests , or any like title . Although then the holy Fathers for diuers respects gaue the preheminence to the church of Rome , yet ●●d they neuer acknowledge c c DVR . This prohibition was giuen by the Fathers , because they knew that a● the soueraignty of the Apostolike Chaire did euer flourish in the Romane Church , so they did not doubt but the manner of the chiefe Priest did appertain● onely to the Bishop of Rome .

WHIT. pag. 885. Nay , the proh●bition of the Councell did as well concerne the Bishop of Rome , whom all acknowledge to be the Bishop of the chiefe seate , as the Bishops of other Seas .

Therefore for the time he obeyed the decree of the Councell , and was content with his names and refused to be called the soueraigne chiefe Priest .

that infinite p●●●●●●●ll authority which he now challengeth , neither ●●d other Apostolike Churches , whether they were founded by the Apostles themselues , or by some of their schollers , yeeld any testimonie of truth to the church of Rome . Heere you stick in a quagmire , and ●●e faine by intreatie to beg that which by strong reason you should prooue and cannot .

But you vrge further , and recompt the Pastors of seuerall countries , to wha● end I pray you . The remainder● , say you , of the labours of all those that haue published the Gospell in all nations farrs and wide , all , present vnto vs this same religion which Cathol●kes at this day professe . What could be affirmed more weakely ? for the Greeians are opposite vnto you , which vnto this time haue their succession of Bishops not interrupted . And further , the spye● which you send in your new found lands , haue found in the furthest coasts thereof many monuments of that faith which we mainteine , Os●rius . neither may you preferre vs before them , at least afore all , you ought to preferre the truth , Aristot. as the Philosopher saith . But if you thinke your Popes and other glorious titles more auncient then the Gospell , what can you alleage why Christ should not denie you to belong to him , seeing you value any thing more then him . Heere you tell vs of Princes , Princes . Kings , C●sars , Emperours , and make a goodly shew of names , as your manner is . At length you mention our noble Queen● Elizabeth , and will needs teach her , her dutie . But she , Campian , needs no such Masters , ●say 48. or instructiors . She knoweth her selfe to be the nursing mother of the Church , and that by diuine dispensation , and accordingly doth she with all watchfulnes and care procure the good thereof , and labours by all possible diligence to preuent all dangers intended by you and your adherents . You say of Caluine and these Princes , 〈◊〉 you haue spoken , th●● 〈◊〉 heauen can no● containe them . But it passe●h your skill to pronounce certainely hereof , nay your Pope himselfe cannot with all his might pull Calui●● out of heauen , not any of them whom Christ hath made witnesses of his truth . As for you and your fellowes , we wish you not the gallowes , but saluation . I desire to hope the best of you ; and I doubt not but you might attaine to the knowledge of the truth in controuersie betwixt vs , if for the time you could lay aside all preiudicate opinions , and consult with the word of God , and the holy Fathers of the Church . As for the societie of Iesus , whereunto you are admitted , it braggeth that it is wholie at the Popes dispensation , and loues Gregory the 13. too well , to loue Queene Elizabeth any thing at all , who is so farre differing from him . Nations conuerted to Christ . You proceed , and produce the vtmost coasts and countries of the world to testifie for you : you should distinguish auncient and later times . For graunt that the whole world had conspired with the Pope against Christ ( which it hath not ) that is no aduantage to you , nor preiudice to vs : d d DVR . You had spoken better , if you had said that he forsakes the Gospell , who affirmeth that the whole world conspire● against Christ . O miserable Caluinists , who cannot defend their saith otherwise , than by bereauing Christ of his kingdome , and the whole christian world of faith ! WHIT. pag. 886. This is very true you say : but Duraeus , did we euer speak after this manner ? Will you keepe your custome of rayling and slaundering ▪ euen to the last act ? Nay rather , O miserable Duraeus , who blinded with malice and ignorance , doth not feele your owne miserie ? Not the whole world , but your Synagogue which is but a small part of the whole world , hath conspired against Christ . And is it to be feared , least Christ should loose his kingdome , and the world faith , if your shaueling with his whole rabble fall from the Gospell ? Though you be perfidious and wicked , yet God will remaine alwaies faithfull and true . whosoeuer forsakes the Gospell , he is necessarily diuided from the Church . To put to silence the oracles of the heathen Idols , and carry the name of Christ vnto the Gentiles , was no doubt a great worke , and a diuine worke : but that is none of your worke , for you haue filled the world with Idols , and as much as in you lay , ouerturned the kingdome of Christ . The Idols of the he●●●en haue been o●e●●●owne , and the kingdome of God enlarged by the Apostles and Apostolike men ; ●●●e ●●e o●e Papist , or one Ies●ite amongst these . For the Iesuites , which assay to make new kingdomes amongst the Indians , serue not Christ , but the Pope : not do they enlarge the kingdome of Christ , but they prepare for the Pope a kingdome farre from the Lutheranes , where he may raigne after he shall be banished from these countries . c c DVR . You set vpon our societie , and say we haue diuided Christ . Because certeine men haue chosen vnto them this name aboue all others , to be accounted of the societie of Iesus ; because they haue consecrated themselues wholy to aduance this name , must they therefore of necessitie diuide Christ ? haue not you Christ Colledge in Oxford ? WHIT. pag. 8●6 . I will not striue much with you about your societie , of which I ●●●e very small account . If you haue for some speciall consideration dedicated your selues vnto Christ , what is that consideration ? why doe you not tell vs what Iesus requireth of you , which all other Christians are not bound to doe ? If the order of your profession require that you propagate honour , and magnifie the name Iesus , if for this all Christians ought not to labour , at least Bishops , and specially your Pope : and if they be Ies●ites who doe this , why ●re not all your Diuines , Bishops , Cardinals , and Popes Iesuites ? It may bee this care is ●arre from them . Whereas then name● are for distinguishing of things , they be needlesse and vaine , when there i● no difference in the thing . Either shew vs what is the proper & peculier duties of Iesuits , or confesse that without any cause you haue app●opriated such a ●●me vnto them . In Cambridge aswell ●s in Oxford we haue both Christ and Iesus Colledge : but they that li●e in those Colledges are called onely Christians . Thinke you that because there are many Colledge● different in names , there are many different Orders & professions of men ? In places distinctions of names are necessarie and without danger , vnlesse some schisme may happen betwixt the w●ls . Haue you no other thing to say for your sect & societie ? You aske , is Christ diuided ? I answere , you Iesuites haue diuided him , els why haue you separated Iesus from Christ , and leauing the auncient ordinary names of Christians , which you scorne as too common , you desire rather to be called Iesuites , a new name of your owne framing , then Christians ? As though there were some societie of Iesus appropriated to one kind of men separated from other Christians ; If there be , then is Christ deuided , if not , then you Iesuites are too impudent to deuise a new societie .

You say either we or he preach a wrong Christ . This of necessitie must be so . But Luther preached the true Christ , storme the Pope neuer so much : looke then what Iesus , what Christ you haue amongst you ? the true Christ it is not . I beseech you , Campian , for Christes sake consider well whom you haue forsaken , to whome you haue betaken you , into what danger you haue cast your selfe . But you will tell vs who is the true Christ , I listen to heare it : let him b● true Christ , and on their side , by whose bringing in Dagons neck was broken . With a good will . Christ by vs preached , hath within these few yeares throwne downe an infinite sort of your Dagons : for so soone as Christ accompanied with his Gospell got footing in any place , your Dagons out of hand fell downe , and had not only their armes and legs broken , but necks also . Patrick in Ireland , and Palladius in Scotland , what they were I meane not to search . We Englishmen , I graunt , receiued much good by Austen the Monke , and much euill also and superstition which he brought in with him . It is plaine that we had receiued the Christian faith in Brittany many ages before his comming hither . How it was by him increased or hindred , I will not say . But he liued sixe hundred yeares after Christ ; which as I iudge was not the purest time of the Church , but as others affirme , the age was most corrupt .

Now to conclude , because to prosecute all were infinite , you gather a heape of witnesses together , the Vniuersities , written lawes , the common fashions of all people , choyce of Emperours , kingly rites , orders of Knighthood , habites , church windowes , coines , gates , houses , all things great and small , vnto all which I answere in a word , if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto vs an other Gospell then that which Christ hath taught , the Apostles published , our Churches now professe , we would reiect and detest it , much lesse do we stand vpon these toyes of yours , and ma●●ers of ●o●om●nt . The florishing Vniuersitie● , auncient law● , and i● all kinds , monuments of great antiquitie , all these afford vnto vs an open testimonie of the truth we professe . Thus haue we heard your ten-fold Apollogy , wherein I perceiue you haue bestowed no small diligence ; how you haue therein preuailed , I leaue the iudgement to others . If you haue satisfied none more therein then our Vniuersitie men , I can assure you , you haue lost your labour , and are disappointed of your hope . For my owne part though in this case I professe my selfe your aduersary , yet your person ( Campian ) I loue as farre as a Christian may loue a Iesuite . And I pray God the Father of Iesus Christ , that he would open the eyes of your mind , and direct you in his waies , least you cast away that silly soule so deerely bought which you desire to saue . Therefore leaue off to resist the truth , and wittingly to ●ick against the prick , you cannot by force stop the waues of the sea , you cannot darken the beames of the sunne , nor restraine the arme of God . Falshood driuen back shall giue place , and truth at the length ( resist while you will ) shall haue the victorie .

The Conclusion vnto the Vniuersitie men .

CAmpian ( most worthy men ) would present this gift of his vnto you , which of what worth it is you can best iudge . I will not go about to turne or allenate your affections from him , whom I know more firmely resolued , then that any such slender reasons can any whit moue you . He may ( I graunt ) make some shew , and get some applause from the vnlearned multitude ; but that he should be able to beguile you , or cast a mist before such and so great iudgements , if I should suspect it , I should be too in●●tio●s to the Vniuersities . Therefore I a● well content that Campian haue such place is your conceipts and affections , as he can procure , and referre the censure of the matter most willingly vnto you . This worke he composed at vacant times us he trauelled , if we may beleeue him of his word . He would not seeme to write any thing purposely and ●●●rately , wherein he both apparantly distrust his cause , and bewraies the vanitie of his disposition . For whereas before he had prepared it with great deliberation , and brought it into England from Rome , he would seeme to vs to haue penned it on a suddaine , at idle times in his trauaile , which plainely shewes the badnes of his cause , and argues more then ordinarie arrogancie . But this is ordinarie with our Papists , to pretend all their writings are done of a suddaine , and ex tempore , hoping thereby to be easily excused in their errors : besides they will hereby make vs beleeue , that when they write more deliberately , and take greater paines , then their writings shall be vnanswerable . After Bishop Iewell that famous preacher of the truth , had challenged all Papists , and called them to the triall of antiquitie , some yeares ago , certaine bookes were published by men of great name , Harding , Rastall , Dorman : but obserue their notable policie . When they had been full three yeares in preparing their answere , and at length had finished somewhat , fearing they should be but lightly respected by the learned and circumspect reader , they dissembled their intent , alleaging that they were written in hast , not with purpose of publishing them , but only to satisfie the particular request of some priuate friends , what could they haue fained more foolishly , or affirmed more featefullie ? But Campian thought good to follow their politique example , affirming this worke of his was made by the way 〈…〉 houres , when he at great leisure had prepared is beyond the seas . And yet the matter of the booke , the manner of his stile , and his whole gift ( as he calleth it ) is such , as I easily beleeue it was rather done in great hast , then by mature deliberation . For what 〈◊〉 these his ●en reasons , but a little summe of slanders , laid , and drawne together out of the bookes and lectures of Lindane , Sanders , Canisius , Melchior Canus , Bellarmine , in composing whereof , Campian might easily make hast , especially seeing his greatest care was not how true , but how slanderous all things were that he should set downe . For I doubt not , but you that are the learned of the Vniuersities , perceiue by this time that those things written in this booke by Campian , are such , as for the matter are most vntrue , for the stile , spitefull and malitious . I testifie before God , and I call heauen , earth , and whatsoeuer creatures in the world to witnes , that either there is no truth , or those things thus by Campian propounded are most false . View it well , search it , and know it altogether , Campian is an aduersary , and deceiptfull , trust him not , he is deceiued himselfe , and laboureth to deceiue you . By him none can be deceiued , but such as willingly will be intangled with error . Al things he hath , are common , only his audaciousnes , in affirming , and faining any thing , it is strange and incredible . If it were fit that he should be respected more then Luther , then Caluine , then Christ himselfe , the teacher of truth , then he had some cause to hope : but seeing this is vnmeete and vnreasonable , he can preuaile nothing at all with you , by his reasons . Night remaines till the day be light , but the Sunne rising darknes is dispelled ; and the truth appearing , falshood vanisheth .

God the father of lights , the only teacher of heauenly wisedome , vouchsafe vs his spirit , that ignorance and deceiue●●●● error being 〈◊〉 we may harken to the voice of that g●●●● Shepheard , auoid the inti●●ments and b●●tes of Antich●●●● , and may know God the Father in Christ Iesus , to whom with the holy Spirit , bee all praise and glory as●●●ed for euer .

FINIS .