A moste sure and strong defence of the baptisme of children, against [the] pestiferous secte of the Anabaptystes. set furthe by that famouse clerke, Henry Bullynger: & nowe translated out of Laten into Englysh by Ihon Veron Senonoys

¶ Thre moste frutefull Dialogues , treatynge vpon the baptisme of chyldren , very necessary to be red of all Chrystyans , in these moste paryllouse tymes . ¶ Symon the Anabaptist , Ioiada the true Christyan . ¶ That rebaptizatyon or baptyzyng agayne , is not of god : and that there is but one baptysme . Symon .

I Haue taryed here for the , more than an hole houre , Ioiada , I was almost perswaded , I dyd almoste beleue , that thou durst not come because that thou haddeste lyttle truste and confydence in the other articles .

Ioiada .

There is no artycle , that I am soo sure of : it is so farre , that I should be afrayde to speake of it .

Simon .

But I wil proue that rebaptyzation is of God .

Ioiada .

By what scriptures ? Actes . xix . chapi .

Symon .

By the .xix chapter of the Actes , where it is expressely set furthe , that the .xii. men , that had bene baptyzed by Ihon , or in the baptisme of Ihon , were baptyzed agayne by Paule in the name of Christe . If it was lawfull after the baptisme of Ihon , to receyue the baptysme of Christe , why shoulde it not be more lawfull , that the baptysme of the Bisshop of Rome , should giue place vnto the baptisme of Christ ? For as those men of Ephesus , had bene ignorauntlye and vnwyttingly baptized with the baptysme of Ihon , and agayne were baptyzed by Paul : In like maner , we were ignorauntly baptized with the baptisme of the Busshop of Rome : Ergo , we maye lawfully be baptyzed agayne , wyth the baptisme of Christe .

Ioiada .

As manye wordes as thou hast spoken , so many errours hast thou vomyted and spued out Fyrste , thou sayest that those men of Ephesus wer twise baptized , which thing thou canst not proue , Ac. xix . cha Baptisme is not taken for water , but for the doctryne . for the baptisme of Ihon , ought not here to be taken for water , but for the doctryne .

Symon .

Thys is the onely refuge that ye flee to , when ye be ouercomen by the truthe . But ye can not proue nor strengthen these your sayinges with the scripturs , nor by any truth

Ioiada .

But I wil proue vnto the , that baptisme is not alwaies taken for the wasshing that is done in the water , Ihon. i. & iii. chapter Mat. xxi . chapter . but rather for the doctryne . Ihon .i. & .iii. chap. And of thys thing , there be most sure tokens , signes , notes , as Mat. xxi . chap. where Christ asketh the pharises whether the baptisme of Ihon was of god , or of men , Baptisme is taken for the doctrine for as the water doth wash away the filthines of the body , so the trew doctrine doth clense the soul from all errours & superstytyon . Act. xii . cha Appollo . & sithens that it was of god , why dyd they not credite & beleue him , vnderstanding by baptism ( as it most manyfestly appeareth ) the doctryne or testimony , which they ought to haue beleued ,

Simon .

Well , go to , put the case that in this place it is taken for the doctrine : yet notwithstandinge , it foloweth not , that in the Actes of the apostles , it shuld be taken for doctrine .

Ioiada .

In the mean season , ye were to much ouersene in this thing , & ouer blinded , saying most shamefully , that we did affirme without any truthe , the baptisme is often times taken for the doctrine . But go to , we wil also proue , the baptisme is taken in the Acts , for the doctryne . In the .xii. of Actes , Luke saith , that a certain Iue called Apollo , being an eloquent man & taught in the way of the lorde , did come to Ephesus , and that he did teache dilygently those thinges that were the lordes , knowing onely the baptisme of Ihon. Here the very blind may se the Luke did speake , not of the water , but of the doctryne . The same Apollos did teache and instruct those . xii men in the way of the lord . whom afterwardes , Paul doth aske , whether after that they had beleued & giuen credit vnto the doctrine , What is to receyue the holy gost they had bene pacified in theyr hertes & consciences , by the holy ghost . ( Here it is to be noted , that faithe is not taken for that heauenlye gyft , Faythe is here taken for the doctryne of fayth . that illumynateth the hearte inwardlye , but for the doctryne of faythe , whyche one man dothe receyue of an other by hearynge ) But they dyd soo aunswere , that Paule myght easely gather by theyr aunswere that they knew not what the peace of consciences , nor what the holye ghost was . He marueylyng therefore , In quid initiati fuissent This word to initiate , whych we are compelled to vse in thys place , signifieth to instructe , or gyue instructyon in ani kind of relygyon , science or knowlege . what maner of doctryne thys was , that had not set furth vnto them , so necessary and principall poyntes , dyd aske them wheruntoo they were baptyzed , not wherin : For he knewe ryght well that men are baptized in water . But he asketh whervnto they were baptyzed , that is too saye , initiated and taughte , what at lengthe was the marke that they dyd shoote at , fithens that they knewe not yet the holy gost ? They made hym answere that they were baptized , that is to saye , initiated in the doctryne of Ihon. The Apostle dyd vnderstande and perceyue that they were not yet ryght well taught and instructed in the doctryne of Ihon. He begynneth therfore , and wyth expresse wordes setteth furth the doctryne of Ihon. Which wordes , if they were well weyghed and pondered , they make altogether against you For thus are the wordes of Paul : Ioannes baptisauit baptismo poenitentiae : that is to say , Ihon hath baptized with the baptism of repentaunce . What meane these words , What is to baptyse with the baptisme of repentaunce he hath baptized with the baptisme of repentaunce , but that Ihon did preache repentaunce ? or did teache how we ought to repent , that will be initiated in Christ or receyue the fyrst instructyon in the religyon of Christe ? Afterwardes he dyd speake of hym that shuld come after him that they might beleue in hym , that is to say , in Iesus Christe . Out of the whych fayth and beleife , peace doth spryng in the mynde and conscyence of man . Rom. v. Ro. v chap chap. When they had vnderstanded that they dyd receyue the baptisme of water in the name of Iesus . The wordes that folowe of the imposityon of handes , make me to expound thys last , of the baptisme of water . As I thynke now , I haue suffyciently proued , that this place helpeth nothing the Anabaptistes : for they , whom mentyon is made of , in the .xix. chap. of Acts , were not baptized againe , but baptyzed once for all , and twyse instructed and taught . Whether the baptisme of Ihon , & the baptisme of Christe , be all one .

Symon .

By thys it shoulde folowe , that the baptysme of Ihon , and the baptysme of Christe is all one , and that there is noo dyfference betwene them .

Thys can not be , for the doctrine of Ihon dyd differre from the doctryne of Christ

Ioiada .

In this thing ye are greatly deceyued , for the doctrine of Ihon , and the doctryne of Christe , are all one , and their baptisme all one ( Here I do speake of the baptisme of water ) and by thys we doo gather and conclude truly , that these men of Ephesus were not baptyzed with the baptysme of Ihon , ( I speake of the water ) for if they had bene baptized wyth the baptisme of Ihon , it had not bene necessary and nedefull , that Paule should had baptized them againe in the baptisme of Christe , for bothe theyr doctryne & their baptisme are all one .

Symon .

If the doctryne of Ihon , & the doctryne of Chrste were all one , why dyd Luke wryte that Apollo was taught onely in the doctrine or baptysme of Ihon , and that therefore Priscilla and Aquilla , dyd take him vnto them , and did teache him more exactly in the way of the lorde . What is ment by this , that Appollo was taught more exactly . If the doctryne of Ihon , and the doctrine of Christ were al one , what did nede to teach him more exactly ? for he that did know the doctryne of Ihon , did also knowe the doctryne of Christe .

IOI.

Luke sayth , that they did expound vnto hym more exactly in the way of the Lorde . The doctryne was all one : but in Apollo there wanted somewhat , which knew not all thinges exactly and perfectly . For these .xii. do saye also , that they were taught and instructed in the baptisme of Ihon , whose doctryne for all that they vnderstode not perfectly , although they were instructed in the doctryne of Ihon , yet notwythstandynge are they taught more exactly by Paul .

SIM .

But Paul sayth not that the doctrine is all one .

IOIA.

Thou dost euery foote bring darkenes into the manifest lyght . Tel me , I pray the , which is the summe of Christes doctrine , and of the apostles ?

SIM .

And I do aske the whether Paul in the .xix. chapter of the Actes , did teach that Ihons and Christes doctryne were all one ?

IOI.

To that wyll I answere after that I haue herd of the , whych is the summe of Christes doctrine , & of hys Apostles . Note the obstnacye of the Anabaptists

SIM .

I will not giue the ouer hand , but persyst and abyde in the wordes of Luke , which are written , Act. xix chap

IOIA.

Thou dost persiste and abide in thy contention and obstinacie . And this are ye wont to do , eyther when ye haue nothyng to answeare , and when ye perceyue that ye are ouercommen with the truthe . Go to , I will declare what is the summe of the doctrine of Christ , The sume of the doctryne of Christ , and of the Apostles . Marke . i. Chapter . Math. iiii . Chapter . and of the Apostles . Mark . i. chap. It is written after this maner : Iesus came too Galilee , preachyng the gospell of the kyngdome of god , and saying . The time is fulfilled and the kyngdome of god is at hand , repent ye , and beleue the gospel . Mat. iiii . chap. Iesus departed into Galilee , & did begin to preache and say : Repent ye the kingdom of heauen is at hand . Chryste doth also sende his Apostles , sayinge : As my father hath sende me , soo I do send you , Ihon xx . Chaptre . Ihon . xx . chapter . But the father did sende Christ to preache repentaunce and forgiuenesse of synnes ergo , Christe sendeth his Apostles too preache the same . Luke xxiiii . Chapter . This is manyfest and playn by the .xxiiii of Luke , and laste of Marke . So it behoued Christ to suffer , and to rise from death vpon the thyrd day , and that repentaunce and remission of sinnes shoulde be preached emong all nations in his name , beginning at Ierusalem , and ye shal be witnesses of these thinges . Actes .ii. iii. Chap. The boke of the Actes doth testifie , that the Apostles did preache the same .ii. iii. chap. Haste thou any thing against so manifest scripturs ?

SIM .

Nothing : The doctryne of Christ and the doctrine of Ihon be all one . But now I aske the whether the doctryne of Ihon , and the doctrine of Christe be all one .

IOI.

I doo proue and conclude by the places afore alledged , that it is all one . It is sayd that the fame of the doctrine of Christ & of the Apostles , is comprehended in this one thing , that men shuld repent , know the kingdome of god to be at hand , and beleue in Iesus Christ . Dost thou graunt these thinges ?

SIM .

What then ?

IOI

Ihon did teache that selfe same thing : ergo , their doctrine was al one , I proue the first proposityon by the third of Mathew : Ihon baptist did preache in the desart of Iury , & did say : Repent ye , the kingdome of god is at hande . In like maner , Luke .i. Luk. i. cha. Ihon . i. and iij. chapter chapter And thou chylde . &c. It is manifest by the first and thyrd of Ihon , that Ihon baptyste did preache the Gospell , Actes .xix. ( Whych place we haue treated vpon alredy ) he preacheth the same , as we maye gather by the wordes of Paule . For he speaketh there after thys maner : Ihon did preache the baptisme of repentaunce speaking of Iesus Christ , in whom they should beleue . Here I do beseche the to confesse and tell plainely , whether these thinges do not sufficientlye proue that the doctrine of Ihon , & the doctrine of Christ be all one .

SIMO .

What dost thou gather & conclude therupon . The Anabaptystes do teche the thynges that they can not proue by the scryptures .

IOI.

That ye Anabaptistes are agayn ouerthrowen and that ye haue taught that thing whiche ye could not proue by the scriptures and yet for all that , ye are so obstacle and stubburne , that ye wyll in no wyse gyue place vnto the truth . Who woulde haue beleued the to be so stiffe necked , that I should be fayne to dryue the to it wyth the scripturs ?

SIM .

What make these thinges to the baptizing agayn ?

IOI.

Very muche . for if the doctryne of Ihon and the doctrine of Christ be al one , their baptisme alsoo is all one . There is no exaumple of baptizinge again in all the scryptures . Ergo , ye haue no example at all of your rebaptizatyon or baptyzing gayne . Also they , whome mentyon is made of Actes .xix. Chapter could not haue bene baptyzed wyth the baptisme of Ihon. that is done in the water and againe be rebaptized by Paule . For so they shoulde had bene twise baptized with one baptism of water , and the one should had abolisshed the other , which thing can not be done by no mean . For theyr baptisme is all one .

SIM .

Thou sayest ryghte well , yf there were onelye one baptisme .

There is onely one baptysme which the anabaptystes do deuyde .

The doctrine is more excellente then baptisme .

IOIA.

Ye do not onely deuide the churche , but also baptysme . I do bring against the , the wordes of Paul which saith : Chryst hath sent me , not to baptyse , but to preache the gospel . Now I do aske the whether of these two is more excellent , the doctryne of the Gospell , or the baptysme ?

SIMO .

The doctryne is more excellente then baptisme , for baptisme , is annexed and ioyned , to the doctryne .

IOIADA .

If Christe and Ihon do agre in the doctryne , it foloweth that they did also consent and agre in the baptysme , ergo , theyr baptysme is all one .

SIMON .

It can not be alone , for the Apostles and Christe dydde baptyse in the name of Iesus , alsoo in the name of the father , of the sonne , and of the holye ghost , Ihon dyd not so : Ergo , it can not be all one baptysme .

IOIADA .

Christ hym selfe dyd not baptyse , but hys Apostles in hys name . Ihon .iiii. Chapter . Ihon .i. Chapter . Marke .i. Chapter . Iuke .iii. Chapter . Ihon and the Apostles dyd baptise in the name of Iesus . Ihon .iiij. Cha. Where as thou sayest that Ihon dyd not baptyse in the name Iesus , thou doste greatlye erre . For Ihon .i. Chapter . Mar. i. chap also , Iuke the thyrd Chapter , it is most manyfest and playne by his own words that Ihon dydde baptyse in Iesus . For there he doth expound his baptysme , sayinge , I doo baptyse wyth water , but he that shall come after mee , wyll baptyse you wyth the holye ghoste . What other thing is thys , but that I do prepare you to Christe , whyche shall make you perfecte . Is not thys to baptise in the name of Iesus ? In what , I praye the , dyd the apostles baptyse , but in the name of Iesus ? Actes .ii. Chapter . Actes .ii. Chap. Se nowe what thou hast wonne , truely none other thing , but that with thine own wordes , thou haste confyrmed and proued , that theyr baptisme is all one .

SIMON .

Yet he dyd not baptyse in the name of the father , the sonne , and the holye ghoste .

IOIA.

Although Ihon did not know Christ to be one god with the father , & the holy gost . Whereby it shoulde folowe , that when Ihon dyd baptyse , and sende or directe men vntoo Iesus , that he dyd baptyse & directe or sende them vntoo a bare man . Whych thinge how vngodly it is , who doth not see ? Ihon Baptist dyd knowe Christe to be the sonne of god , equall with the father in all thynges , he knew also that the spirite of god did inhabyte and dwell in hym , whych was geuen vnto hym after no measure , Ihon .i. Chapter . but of whose fulnesse all men did receyue . Ihon .i. Chapter . For this cause he attributeth so muche vntoo Christ , that he did send all men vnto him and prepared the people for hym . Farthermore he dydde baptyse theym in the name of Iesus , because that he knewe hym too be one god with the father and the holy ghost .

SIM .

These be thy reasons , & not the word of god .

IO.

I wyl proue the these thinges by the worde of god . When Ihon did baptise Christe in Iordan , the heauens did open , & he did se the spirit of god descending and comming doun vpon him . And behold a voice from heauen , saying : Thys is my welbeloued son , In whom I am pleased . Who wil say now that Ihon knew not the father & the holy gost . Ihon .iij. Ihon .iii. Chapter . Chap. He dothe celebrate and set furth with manye goodly praises , the maiestie of Christe , emong al other thynges , speakyng after this maner : He whom god hath sent , speaketh the word of god . For god doth not geue hym the spiryte after a measure . The father loueth the son and hath giuen al thynges into his hand These thinges doo testifye and wytnesse that Ihon dyd knowe ryght well the mistery of the trinitie and vnytye in Christe

SIMON .

I graunt that he did know as thou saiest , yet it foloweth not therby that Ihon did baptyse in the name of the father , the sonne , and the holy gost .

IO.

It foloweth plainely . For I do aske the whether he that baptizeth in Christ , doth baptyse in man , or in god ?

SIMO .

In god truely .

IOIA.

Nowe I aske whether Christ touching his own godheade be seperated from the father & the holye ghost ?

SIMO .

No , for there is but one god onely .

IOIA.

Now make thine argument after this maner : Christe Iesus touching his diuine nature , is not dyuyded from the father and the holy ghost . And he that baptizeth in Iesus , baptizeth not in his humain nature , but in his diuine and godly nature . Ergo , he that baptizeth in Iesus , baptizeth in the father and the holye gost . Ihon ( as it is proued before ) did baptise in Iesus Christ , that is to say , in hym that should come after him : Ergo , Ihon dyd baptise in the father & the holy gost , for these sentences are of lyke syngnificacion and importaunce : he did baptise in god , he did baptise in Iesus Christ , he dyd baptise in the name of the father , the sonne and the holy gost . For , there is one god onely vnto whom we are brought , and grafted by baptisme .

SIMO ,

I neuer vnderstode this thyng afore , for I thought that Ihon had onely begon with hys baptism , but that the baptisme of Christe had them at length begonne , when he dyd sende his apostles in the last chapter of Mark , and of Mathew . Whiche thyng if it were true , the baptisme of Ihon , and the baptisme of Christ coulde not be all one .

IOIA.

Of thys dyd come and springe the errour of of the Anabaptistes . Because that they thinke , that baptism was then ordeyned & instituted after that Christe did ryse from death . And I do merueyle , that they did falle in too thys errour , sithens that with playne testymonyes of the scryptures it is set forth and expressed , that Christ had by his apostles , baptized before his death and afore that they had receiued the holy ghostes Ihon .iii. Ihon .iii. and .iiii. Chapter . and .iiii. Chapter . After thys Iesus dyd come and his discyples , into the lande of Iuery , and there he did abyde with them , and did baptise . Ihon also dyd baptyse before Christ , wherfore he was called baptyste .

SIMON .

Ergo , baptysme hath hys beginnynge and institutyon of man .

IOIADA .

Truly Ihon was a man , whych thing no man can denye , yet notwythstanding , his doctryne and baptysme , were not of man , but of God . Math. xxi . Chapter . Mathewe one and twenty Chapter . But it is called the baptysme of Ihon , and of the apostles , not because it is theyrs , but because it is mynystred by theym . I wyll speake more playnely . Math. xi . Chapter . how thys sayinge . The lawe and the prophetes were tyll Ihon cam . Christ . Mathewe .xi. Chapter , saythe that the law and the prophetes were tyll Ihon came , whereby Christe doth shew that the thynge that the Prophetes dyd afore prophecye , to be or too come , was more fullye set furthe and declared by the preachyng of Ihon. For the thynges the afore by the prophetes were prophecied to come , vnder darke fygures of wordes the selfe same thinges are sette furthe by Ihon , as fulfylled and presente , Ihon begynneth wyth hys baptsme , the gospell and newe testament . and are in a maner shewed with the fygure . The lawe had a misticall lambe : Ihon dydde shewe the true lambe wyth hys fynger . Ihon therfore doth begyn first the gospell and the newe Testamente , and sheweth that the Messias is come . It was necessarye then , that he should abolisshe the olde sygnes , and chaunge them into other , that should be without bloud , worthy of the new testamente . Circumcyon is chaunged intoo baptisme . For circumcision was chaunged into baptysme . Therfore Ihon beginneth baptisme first , as a signe or seale of the people of God . But let vs heare his owne wytnesses and testimonyes of that thynge . Math. iii. Chapter . Mat. iii chap When he did se manye of the Pharyses and Saduces , comming too his baptysme ( that they also might receiue baptism of him ) he said vnto them : Bryng ye furth frutes , worthy of repentaunce . By the whiche wordes Ihon doth plainlye declare , wherfore , & for what purpose & vse , he did minister baptism , although he shuld saie , It shal not be sufficient to haue your body wasshed in the water , but rather this , ye must haue a respect vnto , that ye be new men that ye be sory and repente of your mysdeedes that are passed , and take heede of them , that are to come . There is no cause why ye shuld boste your selues to be the children of Abraham , onlesse ye do folow the fayth of Abraham . What did Abraham ? he dyd beleue in god , hee was obediente vnto the worde of god , hee dyd approue hym selfe , or shewed hym selfe faythfull in all thinges vnto the same god . For I say vnto you , the god is able , to rayse vnto Abraham , Chyldren of these stoones ( that is to saye of the gentils ) Now also the axe is laid to the roote of the tree , What is to be vnderstanded , by the vnprofitable bowes wher wyth the vnprofytable braunches that bring forth no fruyte , are cutte of . That is to saye , the bowghes , that dyd growe of the naturall olyue tree , I meane thee vnfaythefull Chyldren , beynge cutte of and cast awaye from the Testamente of god , shal be destroyed and burnt . Vnderstande therfore my wordes a ryght . Prepare your heartes agaynst the comming of the Messias , the newe king , I do baptise you wyth water , and in a maner initiate you , or giue you the first instruction in the religyon of Christ , to the intente that ye be such , the wil repente & receiue Christ When he is receiued , he shal baptise you with the holye ghoste , that is to saye , Too baptism with them holi ghost he shal seale and make you perfect , with his holy spirite , he shall pardon and forgeue you your synnes , he shall also endue you wyth fyer , that is to saye , wyth feruente charytye . Study wyth all diligence to receyue hym worthely . &c. By these testymonies we do conclude and gather , that Ihon dydde baptyse fyrste , and that he dyd also baptise in Christe . The apostles after that they had receyued Christ , dyd vse none other baptysme , but the same that they had learned of Ihon. Yea , Christe hym selfe was alsoo baptyzed in the baptysme of Ihon. The baptisme of Ihon , is the true baptisme , els Christ , was not well baptized . Yf Ihons baptysme is not trewe , it foloweth that Chryste was not truely baptyzed , and that he oughte too be baptyzed agayne . Who is soo madde too say so ? Ergo , the baptysme of Ihon , is the true baptisme , whych Chryst dyd confyrme and sanctyfye in him selfe

SIMON .

I doo agre vntoo all these thynges : but what doo they make agaynste rebaptyzatyon ?

IOIADA

Thys trewlye , that the men of Ephesus , whome mentyon is made of , Actes . the nynetene Chapter . Were not baptyzed again , syth that the baptisme of Christ and the baptisme of Ihon be all one . Yf they were not baptyzed agayne , the anabaptistes haue no example at all , of theyr rebaptyzation . Whereby it foloweth , that theyr rebaptyzatyon is not of God For they deuyde that one onelye baptysme . Paule sayth . One god , one fayth one baptysme , whyche is in the churche of god , wythout the whych , there is noo baptysme . Syth then that the anabaptystes do forsake the church , The anabaptistes haue no baptisme . yea , do deuide the churche , and are felowes of herytykes , they haue noo baptysme . For they are not in the churche of Christe . Ergo. theyr rebaptyzatyon is repugnaunte vntoo GOD , and is nothynge elles , but a newe secte , agaynste the vnytye of the churche . Obiection both foolyshye and chyldyshe .

SIMO .

But thou doest dissemble this , that they do abhorre the baptisme of the busshop of Rome , none otherwise then in tymes passed , the holy fathers dyd abhorre the baptysme of heretykes , or minystred by heritykes . For they that had bene baptyzed by herytykes and scysmatikes , were baptyzed agayne .

IOIA.

Who dydde euer baptyse men wyth the baptysme of the Busshoppe of Roome ? Dyd the busshop of Roome begyn baptisme ?

SIMON .

No , Ihon did begyn baptisme , but the busshops of Rome did adde manye thinges of theyr owne .

IOIADA .

The thynges that were added by the busshop of Roome , as salte Oyle , coniurynges , &c. are they baptisme , or parte of baptysme ? Thoughe the byshoppes of Roome haue added many thyngs to baptisme , yet it ought not to be called the baptisme of the Byshope of Rome .

SIMON

Neyther of them , for then , neither Christ nor Ihon , had baptyzed truely , whyche dyd not adde those thinges .

IOIADA

If these new added thinges are not baptysme , nor yet parte thereof , whye do ye call it then the baptysme of the busshop of Roome ? Or was euer anye man that dyd baptyse in the name of Clemente , Bonyface , Leo , or Gregorye ?

SIMO

No manne .

IOIADA .

In what then were ye baptyzed ?

SIMON .

In the name of the father , of the sonne , and of the holye ghoste .

IOIADA .

Ergo , ye were not baptyzed in the baptysme of the Busshop of Roome , but in the baptysme of GOD . And they that baptise you nowe , in what , or wyth what wordes doo they baptyse you ?

SYMON .

With water , and in the name of the father , of the sonne , and of the holye ghost

IOIA.

Were ye baptized in the same and with the same worde in your youth ?

SIM .

Yes truely .

IO.

What neadeth them thys laste baptisme ? doest thou not se the ye are starke madde ?

SIM .

When we were children we knew nothyng of baptism . We vow now vnto god purenes , & a lyfe without sinnes .

IO.

Could ye not do this without baptism ? Yf ye could , ye neded no water , yf ye coulde not , the vertue is in the water . Ergo , our saluatyon is alligated and bounde to the elementtes , agaynste the nature of faythe and of the scriptures . What answere canste thou make here .

SIM .

It is better , that we thus consecrate our selues vnto god . Anabaptistes are like vnto monkes .

As monkes did heare before tymes bynd themselues vnto god with there vowes . Here poyson is hydden , that ye do chalenge nad attribute vnto your selues purenesse of lyfe , ye do detest & abhorre other as vnclean , & as the catharians in times passed ye do gather and assemble vnto your selues a peculiar churche , markyng and sealyng your selues as though ye were the purest of all men . Rebaptyzation is a newe secte againste the vnytye of the church Wherfore I may well cal your rebaptization a newe secte against the vnitye of the churche , whiche thynge appeareth more and more by thy words Tell me , I praye the , if youre churche is without sinnes , or is no more in the flesshe where is then the lost & prodigall chylde the straying shepe , the fyeld sowen with cockle and darnel , the net that draweth all kindes of fisshes , the supper or banket where all they that are bidden , doo sitte also they that haue not the bridegromes liuerie . Yf ye be pure & wholl , then haue ye no nede of Christ , the phisition of the soules . O moste bolde and shameles hipocrytes , O disguysed and masked hery tykes , who hath bidden you , to make dyuision afore tyme ? Or if ye be so holye & pure , when wyll ye of charitye , beare with vs , our heauy burthens , wherewyth we are ouercharged and burdoned , that ye maye fulfyll the lawe of Christe ? When wyll ye haue compassyon of our infyrmities ? When wyll ye that are strong , take vs that are weake , vntoo you ? Whye do ye cut of and contempne the sicke and weak members ? What are ye but scismatykes ?

SIMO .

Thou hast not yet told why the aunciente fathers dyd baptyse them agayne , that had bene baptized by heritykes .

IOIADA .

They were not baptized againe , It is no baptisme onlesse it be ministred in the name of the father , the sonne , and of the holy ghoste . but they were baptized as they that had not bene baptized . For herytykes dyd denie the trinitie , the god head of Christe , and the holy ghost . Besides that , they were not of the churche : Ergo , they had no baptisme , nor did baptise in the name of Iesus , whom they dyd denye . Moreouer , the custome of rebaptizyng , or baptyzing agayn , was not commonly vsed in the church . For they that had bene baptyzed in the name of the father , of the sonne , and of the holy ghost , were not baptyzed agayne , but were receyued by the imposition of handes , and also were admonisshed to persiste and abide in the sinceritie of fayth . This therefore helpeth you nothynge , but rather doth make against you . Emong the true christians , ye haue no exaumple at all of your rebaptization , but emong these auncyent heritikes , that haue bene alreadye condempned of the churche . For ye doo renew the heresyes of Aupentius . The Anabaptistes do renew olde heresyes . Nouatus & Pelagius .

SIM .

What maner of men were they .

IOIA.

In the yere of our lorde . CC.lv. there rose in Roome , a ceraine man , called Nauatus , a verye arrogante , proude , obstinate and bold man He did teache , Nonatus errour . that a man after baptisme was pure and cleane , which purenesse yf he had ones lost through sinne , he coulde neuer be forgyuen . And if anye man for feare and dreade , or necessitie of deathe , had denied Christe , that he ought not any more to be receyued intoo the church ( thoughe he lamented neuer so sore for hys fall ) but that he oughte to be separated , and as a dampned creature , too be shunned of all men . Thys thynge dydde cause a counsayle of graue and holy men to be gathered at Roome , A counsall agaynst Nouatus . whiche by the scriptures , beynge truelye vnderstanded did condempne this opinion , as vngodly and herytycall . Yet in the meane season , Nouatus dothe not leaue of , nor yet recant his vngodly opinion : but rather did assemble and gather a peculyar churche , condempning the churches , where synners and repentaunt personnes were , he dydde call hys churche pure . Therefore were the Nouatyans , Why the Nouatians wer called Catharians . called Catharyans . Whome he dydde receyue into his church , them did he bind vnto his errour & consecrate vnto his vnpure clenlynes , by reqaptizatiō or baptizing again . I do not bring these thinges out of mine own head , but out of those auncyent doctours , Cornelius , Ciprianus , Dionesius , Alexandrinus , and Eusebius . Of whome some did lyue in Nouatus time . The Nouatians & Anabaptistes are lyke in all thynges . Now if thou dost diligently loke vpon these auncyent Nouatians , & the anabaptystes of our tyme thou shalt find very litle difference betwene them , for as Nouatus beinge openly conuinced in that most famous counsayle of learned Bishops , doth not forsake hys errour , but obstinately dothe defende it . so the Anabaptistes do at this present . For howe often haue they bene ouerthrowen in the open disputations , that haue bene kepte wyth them in Tigure , Sanctogallum , Berne , Basile , Constance , Argentyne , and Auguste ? And yet for all that , they wyl rather loose theyr lyfe , then for sake theyr errour : yea , they do gather & assemble peculier churches , they baptise agayne , they condempne oure churches as vncleane , they doo atribute vnto them selues , purenesse of lyfe , to be shorte , they doo all thynges that Nouatus dydde . In the meane season , they are ambitious , arrogante , proude , pufte vp , and verye hipocrytes .

SIMON .

I vnderstande that the Anabaptystes are Nouatyans .

What sayest thou of the other two ?

IOIA .

Aupentius was busshop of Milan , Aupentyus condemneth the baptisme of children . afore Ambrosius , of the sect of Arrius . He did condempne the baptisme of children His errour was condempned in the counsayle of Miluent .

SIMON .

But it foloweth not thereby , that infantes muste be baptyzed .

IOIADA .

Verelye it foloweth , whych thyng we wyll proue by and by .

¶ The second Dialogue . That the baptysme of children , is of God . SIMON .

Whatsoeuer thou sayest , I wyll proue by most stronge argumentes , that the baptisme of children is not of god .

IOIADA .

And I wyll gladly heare howe thou canst do it . The chyef Argumentes of the Anabaptistes agaynste the Baptisme of infantes .

SIMON .

In the last of Marke , Christe sayth to hys apostles go throughout all the wholl worlde , and preach the gospell to euery creature . He that beleueth and is baptyzed , shall be saued : He that beleueth not , shall be condempned . Also in the laste of Mathewe it is wrytten after this maner : Al power is giuen vnto me in heauen , and in earth goyng therfore teache ye al nations , baptizing in the name of the father , of the son and of the holy ghost . By these it semeth to folow , and that necessarely , that baptisme ought onely to be ministred vntoo them that can be taught and instructed . For he sayth first , teache them , and then afterwardes : baptyse them , whereby it foloweth also , that baptisme is a signe of the faith that wente before . For he saithe : he that beleueth and is baptyzed shall be saued , Let vs nowe adde and ioyne vntoo these , and ponder dilygently both the examples and factes of Ihon , and of the apostles , and that whych I say shal be manifeste and playne . For Ihon dyd baptise them onelye , that dyd confesse theyr sinnes . Actes .ii. Chapter . Actes .ii. Chap. Luke doth wryte after this maner : And they which receyued gladlye the worde , were baptyzed . Philip doth then at lengthe baptyse the stewarde of Quene Candace , after that he had declared vnto him . the .liii . Chap. of Esay , & had questioned wyth him of his faith . Actes . viii . Chapter . Actes . viii . chapter . All the apostles after that they had preached the Gospell , and that the faith was receyued , did baptise the faithefull . It foloweth then , that baptysme as a signe is due vnto them that can both heare and receyue the doctryne . Infantes , because that they want the vse of reason , can neyther heare nor receyue the doctryn , & therfore they haue no faythe . For Paule teacheth that faith commeth by hearynge , and hearyng by the word of god . Rom. x. Chap , Roma .x. Sith then that Children can neyther heare , nor vnderstande the worde of god , they can not beleue . Ergo baptisme is not due vntoo them , which is a signe of the faythe that goeth before . Yf thou canste , A solution to the argumentes of the Anabaptistes . answere me to these : I wil tell and set forth , myne other argumentes hereafter .

IOI.

Thou hast rehersed the chief and principal foundatyons of the Anabaptystes , that haue anye showe or appearaunce , but thys is noo newe thynge vnto vs , whych haue learned and red in hystories , that aboue three hundreth , xlviii . yeares agone that is to saye , in the yeare of Christe . M.C. lxxxii . there haue bene heretykes , The sum of the Anabaptistes arguments . that haue taught the same doctrine . But because , that ye do leane vpon a weake & brickel foundation , your fote shal easely be subuerted & ouerthrowen , in al your doctrin ye do most vrgently beat this into mens hedes , the baptisme is a signe of the faithfull or of them that haue faith alredy . Infantes or yonge babes haue no fayth . Ergo baptisme ought not to be ministred vnto infantes . In very dede ( if the wordes be wel and truly expounded and vnderstanded ) we do gladly graunt this thinge vnto you : That baptysme is a sygne of the faithfull people . But we do not deffyne , cyrcumscribe , This word fidelis , faithfull or fidel ought not to be limited as the Anabaptists wil haue it or limite the faythful , as ye do : for yf no man shoulde be baptised but they that beleue truly , and from a sincere hearte , Iudas , Simon , of Samaria , Demas . and other hipocrites , had neuer ben baptized . Let no man thus take my sayinges , although I would haue baptysme to be ministred vnto theym , whome it is manyfeste and playne to be infydels , but myne intente is to shewe , that by thys word , fidelis , faythfull , some what more is to be vnderstanded , then the Anabaptistes do expresse ,

SIMO .

What canst thou make of a faythfull but a faythfull ? I can not vnderstand how infantes and yong babes can be faithful , sith that they do wante the vse of reason .

IO.

But in thys busynesse , we do soo speake of the faythfull that we do in noo wise exclude the children from the number of them , syth that the children and infantes are of god whome god doth alwaies admitte and receyue into his churche emonge the faythfull .

SIM .

It behoueth the to haue proued the same , Who be the fideles & faythfull . Gene. xvii Chapter . O comfortable sayinge , both to vs and too oure children . as I haue alredy proued the contrary ,

IOI .

I wil proue it . Genesis xvii . chapi . Where god doth make a couenaunt with Abraham . the lorde doth peculyarly comprehend the chyldren in the couenaunt , for he sayth . I shall be thy god , and the god of thy sede after the. And afterwards he commaundeth the infantes to be cyrcumcised vpon the eyght daye , & to receyue the signe of the Testament . Wherby it foloweth that god is not only the god of them that be of age , and canne beleue in God , but also of the infante , Children are fideles or faithful and be in the churche the members of Christe . which for lacke of age can not yet beleue , for they through grace and the promyse , are receyued in to the couenaunt and number of the faythfull .

SIM .

I care not for the olde Testamente of the Iewes , these olde thynges are abolished by the gospel .

IO.

By Iesu Christ the ceremonies are abolished and the figures fulfylled , What parte of the olde testament is abolyshed by Christ . but the couenaunte made with Abraham , standeth styll . Elles god were not our god , and the God of our sede , and shuld be made by Christ more vnmerciful and more straunge , than he was to the aunciaunte fathers before Christ . Which to thynke , were a foolysh thyng , that I should not say an vngodly , specially syth that in the newe Testamente , The faythfull are the chyldren of Abraham . Roma . iiii . Gala. iiii . Mat. viii . Luke .xiii. and .xix. Chapter . Ihon .i. Chapter . alsoo the faythfull are called the chyldren of Abraham . Rom. iiii . Gal. iiii Mat. viii . Luk. xiii . & .xix. Chap. Besides these , Christ which expresse words , doth say : Suffer yonge children to come vnto me , for to suche doth belong the kingdom of heauen . Paul speaking of the children of the christians , saithe : Youre chyldren are cleane : How should that be , onlesse it were thorow grace , mercy , & the promise of god ? It foloweth then , that the children of the christians , are of god , & ought to be numbred emong the children of god .

SIM .

These thinges do altogether repugne vnto the scriptures and gospell , as thoughe the carnall birth should auaile some thyng before god , wheras Ihon saith : Whych were not borne of bloud , nor of the will of the flesh , or of man , but were born of god Ye say that the chyld doth belong to the church , because that his parentes are of the churche .

IOIA.

We doo saye thys through the grace & mercy of god , wherof is the promise : The children are of the churche , not for theyr carnall generation & birth , but for the promise of god , whyche he hath promysed , that he wil be the god of the children .

SIM .

What if the parentes of the childe , Whether the children of them , the feygne them selues to beleue ought to be baptized Act. viii . Chapter shuld feigne their fayth , and not beleue truely : should not these children be borne of vnchristian parentes , and therfore ought not to be baptyzed ?

IOIA.

I aske the , Symon , dyd Symon Magus of Samaria , beleue or not ?

SIMON .

He dyd not beleue , but he did feygne hym selfe to beleue .

IOI

What yf thy sayinges be repugnaunte vnto the scriptures ?

SIMO .

I do not thinke it .

IOIA.

I will shewe the therfore . Act. viii . chap. it is written after this maner : When they of Samaria had gyuen credyte vnto Philippe , which preached vnto them of the kingdome of god , & of the name of Iesu Christ , they were baptized both men & women . Then dyd Simon Magus beleue also and being baptized dyd ioyne hymselfe , too Philippe

SIMON .

He did beleue , that is to say he did confesse the faith with his mouth and sayd that he did beleue .

IOIADA

This that I say , this word fidele , or faithful is of a larger sygnificatyon , and can not be so narowly taken , which thinge thou thy selfe dost graunte with me , being constrayned therto , by the aucthoritie of the scriptures . But I aske the , why did Philyp baptise hym , sith that he dyd not beleue truely ? Diddest thou not say before that baptysme oughte too be mynistred vnto no man , except he doth beleue truely ? and that baptism is a signe of the faith that goeth afore ?

SIM .

Because that he saide wyth the other , that he did beleue in Christe , Philyp dothe not se the hearte , but being contente wyth the confessyon of the mouth , doth pronounce and baptyse . God only seeth the hearte .

IOIA.

So thou shuldest haue spoken and confessed , that god onelye seeth the heart , and that we oughte to be contente with the outward confessyon , & vpon this confession to baptise . Sith then that the father of the infant , doth confesse the fayth with his mouthe , and saith that he beleueth in Christ Iesus , moreouer doth beleue and confesse that god is his god , & the god of his sede , and that he doth therefore brynge hys chylde vnto baptisme , it is conuenient & mete , that we beleue his wordes : & thoughe some time we doubt of the words of the father , yet know we that the chylde shall not beare the iniquitye of the father , and that the carnall generation doth make nothynge to this , but that they are , and shal be called the children of god , which partayne too the free election and gratuite promyse of god . Do not all men knowe , Ezechias . that Ezechias being a faithful king , was borne of a wicked parent ? But yet this thing did harm or hinder him nothing at all : Esau . euen as Esau got no profit therby , that he was borne of a godly parent : ergo the election of god doth remain fre .

SIM .

What if the child that is brought to baptism , were not of the elect ? were it not better that a man shuld than at length be baptized , when we shuld se & perceiue that he is of the elect ? For they whiche are not elected , are not of god , & they that are not of god , ought not to be baptyzed .

IOIA.

When shuldest thou then baptyse him that came at the euening in too the vineyarde ? when shouldest thou baptise the thief on the crosse ? By this mean no man should be baptized , and baptism shoulde be abolyshed , for the electyon of god , is not alwaies knowen vnto vs : yea , we shulde by that meane , take that vpon vs which belongeth to god only : God only knoweth who be elected and who be not . for god onely doth searche the heart & knoweth only , which be elected , & which be not . I do let passe , that we coulde not thus auoyd the hipocrites . For Simon Magus did feigne his faith wherby ye anabaptistes do iudge & measure the election , and yet he was not elected . Ismael and Esau were not elected , & they were cyrcumcised . Other that are alredy of age may do the same . But tell me , were Ismael , and Esau elected or not ?

SIM

They were not elected .

IO.

When they were yet babes and infantes , were they numbred emong the people of god , or not ?

SI.

I can not tell .

IO.

But it behoued that to know it , syth that thou takesse suche matters in hand . That they wer of the people of god , I proue it by the circumcision They were circumcised by the commaundement of god : circumcision was the signe of the people of god , ergo , in their infancie they were the children of god , and also they weare of the people of god , yea , though they were not elected . It is plain and manifeste by the lyfe that folowed , the they were not elected and chosen .

SIM

I could wel graunt , that they were of the people of god , but I can not recken them emonge the faythefull .

IOIA.

Are not they , that be of the people of god , faithful ?

SIM .

They that be of age are faithfull infantes and yonge babes , can not be so for they can not professe theyr faith .

Ye synge alwayes one songe , haste thou not heard a great while agone , that chyldren , though they can not confesse theyr fayth , are rekened emonge the faythfull Or is god onely the god of them that are of age , and not also of the chyldren ? Or dyd Christ suffer onely for them that are of age , and not also for the Chyldren ?

SIMON .

He dyd suffer for the satysfactyon of all the synnes of the whole world .

IOIADA .

Haue the Chyldren anye synne ?

SIMON .

They haue the origynall synne . Chyldren are restored by Chryste , and not only they that be of age .

IOIADA .

Syth then that Paule sayeth , that whatsoeuer was fallen by Adam , the same was restored by Christe , and not onely they , that be of age , but also Chyldren , be loste in Adam , It foloweth that children are restored agayne by Christ , Yf they be restored by Chryst , they are of God , & ought to be sealed , with the seale of the people of god Baptisme is the seale of the people of god Ergo , chyldren ought too be baptyzed .

SIMON .

Proue that baptisme is the signe or seale of the people of god .

IOI

I proue that by your owne confessyon . For ye say that baptisme is the sygne of the faythfull . Actes . x. Chapter . What is to receue the holy ghoste . I proue besydes , by the wordes of Peter , whyche Actes . x. Chapter speaketh after thys maner . Whoo can forbyd them to be baptyzed , that haue receyued the holy gost as well as we ?

SIMON .

But children haue not receiued the holye ghoste .

IOIA.

In this place to receyue the holy gost , is too receyue a wytnes that we are of god , whych receiueth vs , and that we are clensed and purged by god . Act. x. xi . xv . Chap. This may be proued by the x. xi . and .xv. Chapter of Actes . Chyldren are clensed & purged by God : ergo , they haue the spiryte of god . If they haue the spiryt of god , they are of God , and baptisme is due vntoo them : as it is suffycyently proued by the olde and new Testamente .

SYMON .

Yf Christ should say The kyngdome of heauen belongeth vnto them , I would easely agre to the , but he sayth not vnto them , but vnto suche .

IOIADA .

But thou most thynke and consyder , that there must be some lykenesse and affinitye betwen the thinges that are compared together . I can not saye , If thou wylt be saued , do as Iudas dyd , for Iudas is not saued : but damned . If the chyldren wer not of god , nor the kingdom of heauen theirs : the Lorde had not saide . Yf ye wyll enter into the kyngdome of heauen : be ye made as these chyldren are . Therfore when he sayeth : vnto suche , he sheweth that chyldren are such , as he wil haue them to be , that are of god .

SIM .

It were better , to proue with expresse testimonyes of the scripture , that children haue the spiryte of god .

IOI.

By what argumentes , wylte thou haue those thynges that are playne and manyfest , to be proued vnto the ? But heare thou , a more playne testimonye . Paule . Romaine . viii . faythe : that he that hath not the spirite of god , is not his . Wherby it foloweth that he , which is of god , hath the spirite of god , the chyldren are of god : Ergo , they haue the spirit of god . Children haue the spirite of god Yf thei haue the spirite of god , then ought thei by good ryght to be baptized . For Peter sayeth : who can forbyd them , that haue receuid the holy ghost , to be baptyzed .

SIMON .

I wyll not contende . Howe beit I merueyl , that it is so expressely said . Teche ye , baptizyng . Agayn , that Peter baptized them which reaceaued gladly the worde : so lykewise Philip did baptise the steward of Quene Candace . Howe the places aleged by the Anabaptestes ought to be vnderstanded .

IO.

Both the places and examples , which thou hast brought & aleged , ought to be vnderstanded of them that are of age , and not of chyldren . Christ did not sende hys disciples to preche the gospel vnto chyldren but vnto them the were of age & had the vse of reason . Nor we do not teache , that children ought to be baptised in those places , wher the gospel was neuer preched . But wher the word of god & the holy gospel , hath ben both preched & also receiued by faith , it is no dout , but there it is both taught & beleued , that the children are of god , and that it is the wil of god , that the children , which be of god should be sealed with baptism , & in a maner brought vnto god . The doctrine is greter than that baptism Therfore they are not excluded from the people of god , but are receyued and rekened emonge the people of god . Or elles tell me Symon , whether of the twoo is greater , baptisme or the doctryne ?

SIMON .

The doctryne is greater than Baptysme .

IOIADA .

What is the doctrine ?

SIMO .

The holy gospel : For Marke saith : Go thoroughout all the wholle worlde , and preche the gospell vnto euery creature : Mathewe lykewyse : Teache them to kepe what soeuer I haue commaunded you .

IOIADA .

Dothe then thys gospell teache that the chyldren are not of God ?

SIMON .

No , elles it should be harder & more vnmercifull then the lawe .

IOIO .

Doth Christ commande his discyples to preache that chyldren oughte too be reiected and caste awaye ?

SIMON ?

Noo , But rather he dothe chyde hys dyscyples because that they rebuked theym , that broughte children vnto hym .

IOIAD

Thus I doo conclude then , syth that in these wordes of Chryste . ( Teache Baptise ) the doctryne is more excellente and greater , and yet chyldren are not forbydden it , but rather broughte vnto it : It foloweth that they are not forbydden baptysme , which is lesse , Infantes that dye without baptisme are notte dampned but rather ought to be brought vnto it . Thus it is manyfest and playne , that thys commaundement of Christ standeth with vs , and not with you .

SI.

It shuld folow that the infants which die without baptism , are not dampned .

That foloweth plainly , & also this dothe folowe , that thou being ouercommen with the truth , dost seke how to bring me into an other purpose , least I should bind the more straightly .

SIM .

I confesse that I can say nothinge againste so manyfest truthe . But I haue broughte this of the children , to the intent that thou shuldest teache and instructe me in thys poynte .

IOIA.

Iustifying & saluatyon is much lesse bound to the outward elements than in tymes passed in the law . Why the infante is baptised . Heb. ix . chap The infante therfore is not baptized for this intent , that by baptism , that is to saie : by the outward wasshyng of water , he shuld be made the child of god , but he is therfor baptized because he was afore the child of god throughe grace & promise . Wherefore if they die afore that the water of baptism be poured vpon them , they are neuertheles the children of god , & are saued through the grace and promysse of god , by the force & strength of the couenaunt , by the satisfaction of Iesus Christ , that he made on the crosse , for all mankynde . In the generalitye of mankynd , not only they , that are of age , but also children are included .

SIMO .

By thys meane , we shuld nede no baptisme . For if the chylde is alredye before the chyld of god , what good doth the water ? wherby this also should folow , that baptisme is bare water .

We ought to speake reuerently of the Sacramentes The outewarde elementes & signes beinge omitted & lefte in necessytie can not dampne one .

The baptisme of bloude .

IOIAD .

We must speake more reuerently of the sacramentes . None of the faithfull is so alligated and bound to the elementes , and outward thinges , that they may condemne him if they be omitted and left in necessitie : for the bloude of Iesus Christ , hath clensed him . I do call necessitie , as when a chyld departeth before baptism , or when a man , beyng conuerted to the faith , is afore he can be baptyzed , taken to martyr do●n , which thing was often times done in the primitiue churche , for vnto hym the crosse was in steade of baptisme , wherefore the auncient fathers did call it the baptisme of bloud . Howbeit no man ought to neglecte or contempne the order that Christ hath instituted , nor to despyse baptisme , if he may haue it . If he contempneth or doth neglect to receiue baptisme when he may haue it , he is noo christian , but the disciple of Iulianus & Porphirius For if baptism were vnprofitable , Christ would not haue instituted it . All thinges that Christe hath gyuen and lefte vntoo vs , are excellente , holye , and profytable . Ergo , baptism is not onely profitable vnto vs , but also moste necessarye : Farther more , we do adde thys also , that baptism touchyng the mattyer , is water , and yet it ought not to be contemned and cast awai , or estemed as the comon water of the well . For the water is onely parte of it , and a certayne signe . The whol action of baptisme conteyneth great mysteryes But the wholle action conteyneth a greate mysterye , and an honorable sacrament . Wherfore it was called by the holy fathers , a purging , & remission of synnes , also , regeneracion or renuyng , and other lyke names . Not that the water hath the strength to purge or renewe . For then Symon of Samaria , Iudas , Himeneus , Phyletus , and other false brethern and hipocrites had bene clensed and renued , for then were wasshed with the water of Baptism . But it is playne and manyfeste , that they were not purged inwardely , but defiled with all iniquitye and wyckednesse , that they were not the chyldren of god , but the chyldren of the diuell . When therfore these godly & spiritual things are attributed vnto baptisme , they be not attributed vnto the outward wasshing , but to the wholl action , which conteyneth the faith of the minister , of the church & of him that is baptized , also the grace , election & promise of god . It is then chiefly attributed vnto the , which is signifyed by the pouryng on of the water .

SI.

what is signified them ? What is signifyed by the pouryng on of the water .

IO.

That he whych is baptized , is of the people of god , & that he is clensed inwardlye by the grace of the holy ghost , the wholsome water , that he is wasshed by the bloud of Christ . & initiated vnto a new lyf , euen as water doth wasshe and clense the outward filthenesse .

SIM .

verie well , Syth , then that the mysteries of batisme are so hygh excellente , & holy , why , Circumcision was in tymes passed , a great sacrament . I pray that are they geuen & ministred to infantes , that are not able to receyue so excellent thinges ?

Was not circumcision in tymes passed , a great sacrament , a signe of the people of god , & an initiation or entraunce into the true fayth and innocency of lyfe . Deu. x. Hier. iiii . Roma ii & iiii Cha. And yet it was geuen & ministred to the chyldren , whiche long after wer instructed in the lawe . Deu. vi . Whie shuld we not do the same ? Why shuld we not seale our children beyng newly born with the seale of the people of god ? & when thei be of age , bring them into knowlege of the gospel ? Of this , Confirmation . did spring among aūctant fathers confirmacion or bisshoping , that is to say , an establyshyng of those thinges , that were begonne in baptisme . The chyldren were brought forthe , they were asked of their faythe , of the Lordes prayer & other necessary articles , wherin they were instructed & confirmed . Wherfore they that dyd bryng the chyldren to baptism , are witnesses that the child whiche is brought , is borne of chrystian parentes , askyng both in theyr name , and in the parentes name , that the seale of the people of god may be geuen & ministred vnto the childe . Wherfore they be called in oure vulgare tonge godfathers & god motheres , because that they brynge the chylde to god , and wytnesse that he is of god , promysing that they wyl bryng vp the chylde in the true fayth , if nede shuld require . Yf ye aske , by what scripturs we do strenghten these oure sainges , we doo bryng vnto you the Analogye , or conueniencie of the ceremones of the olde lawe , that is to say , of circumcision : For euen as in circumcision the chyldren were brought vnto the Lord , so we do read in the gospell the chyldren were brought vnto Christ .

I do lette these thynges passe nowe , & retourne vnto the fyrste . Thou dyddest say yf I remember well , that where Christ is not preached , that men must be taught fyrste and then at length baptized . They ought not to goo aboute to baptise where the gospell is not preached .

IOIA.

So it is , nor it can be done none otherwyse ( as thou thy self doest knowe ) for yf any man shuld come in to Greekland where the Turke doth now raygn , & there wold baptise , afore he had taught : should not lose his labour , for men beynge not yet taught what baptisme is , or what it sygnyfieth , wold neyther them selues receyue baptisme , nor suffer it to be ministred vnto their chyldren .

SIM .

Did not , I prai that , the Iues knowe , the god was their god & the god of their chyldren ?

IO.

They kenw it ryght wel , & therfore they circumcised their children .

SIM .

what nedeth them ani preaching emong the Iues , that knew god alredy before ? Why did they not by & by bryng & intiate the children by baptisme vnto Christ ?

IO.

The Apostles did preache baptism against circumcision . The Iues which toth & nail defended circumcision . Therfore ther was nede of long preaching emong the Iues , that they myght vnderstand the baptisme shuld be in sted of circumcision .

SIM .

The anabaptistes do say that ye teache these thynges without the scriptures .

IO.

Thei shuld easely vnderstand the baptism is com in the stede of circumcision if they woulde diligently looke vpon the vse of them both . For in baptisme , as in tymes passed in circumcision , the name is geuen vnto chyldren . So it is wrytten . Luc ii chapter . But these thynges are of lytle weyght emong you . Therfore we do referre all our saynges to the Actes of the Apostles . x. xi . xv . and Collosse. ii. chapte . For there Paul doth comforte the faythfull that were of the gentyles , & byddeth them that they shuld not be sory , because they were not circumcised : for why ? Baptisme was the circumcision of the faythful .

SIMON .

But there he doth playnely and with expresse wordes speake of the circumcision that is done without handes , vnderstandyng therby a renewynge of the mynd & of the inward man .

IO.

We speak of none other . But in the meane season Paule dothe meane that Iewysshe circumcysyon , that was done in the priuye membre wyth a flynte stone , and wyth handes . I saye that ye are cyrcumcysed , O ye Collossenses , and haue a cyrcumcysyon , not that cyrcumcysion that is done wyth handes , but in stede of the bodelye & outwarde circumcision , ye haue Christes circumcision , that is to say , baptisme . For as by circumcision , the cuttyng away of affections was signified : so by the wasshing , done in the water of baptism , the purging & clensing from sin , is fygurated & betokened . That thys is the true meaning & sence of this place I wil proue by the very words of Paul In Christ ( saith he ) ye are complet , whiche is the head of all rule & power , by whom ye are circumcised with the circumcysion that is made wythout handes , when ye dyd put of the sinfull body of the flesh , by the circumcision of Christ , being buried together with him , through baptisme , in the which also ye be risen with him , by the faith wrought in you of god , which raised him from the dead . Bring hether to thys place that .vi. to the Rom. & conferre them together , and thou shalt vnderstand the baptism is called the circumcision of Christ , & also the baptisme hath bene placed in the stede of the circumcision . Vpon these things I do conclude after this maner : Yong children were in times passed , circumcised . Baptism occupieth the place & roum of circumcision : ergo , our children must be baptized

SI.

What , on the .viii. day ?

IO.

We are bound neither to time nor too place , but we are fre from all those thinges by Christ Al thinges then being considered , We are free from al outward ceremonies of the lawe by Christ . it is manifest and plaine , that the baptism of children is of god , against the which , sith that the anabaptistes do repugne , it is wythout doubt . that they do contrary the gospell , the election of God , and the euerlasting couenaunt . They are therfore ouer bold & rash , they are open violatours or breakers of the couenaunt of god , vnfaith ful against god , sith that they do exclude and debarre them from the couenaunt of God , whome gods grace dothe comprehende in the couenaunte .

SIMON .

Yet ye haue no expresse word of God , the children ought to be baptized .

IOIA.

Shall not all that we haue hetherto aledged and brought , proue the same ? But go to , put the case that we haue no expresse word therof in the scriptures . Tell thou , where haue ye one expresse word the chyldren ought not to be baptyzed ?

SIM .

Teache baptyzyng . Agayn : They came and confessed theyr sinnes . Item : They that receiued the word gladly . were baptyzed . Baptisme is in the stead of circumcision . And he that beleueth and is baptized .

IOIA.

I haue answered alredy before to all these : but so ye are wont to repeate euery foote , your bald reasons and argumentes . The Anabaptistes are prompte & quicke to speake , but not redye to gyue place to the truthe . For ye are very prompt & quicke to speake , but not so ready to giue place to the truth . I haue not yet hearde in all thine allegations , any suche saying or sentence . Children ought not to be baptized .

SIM .

But that doth folow of the places afore alledged .

IOIA.

Thys is neither commaunded there , nor yet forbydden . Besydes that , your consequences are false , and wythoute foundatyon . If ye be nothinge ashamed of youre false consequences , we wyll be nothinge ashamed of our true . Therefore when ye crye out saying . Where doth the scripture teach that children ought to be baptised ? we crye agayne : Where doth the scripture forbid to baptyse them ? Ye do answeare in the last of Marke . We bring agaynst you . Gene. xvii. Marke .x. i. Corinth . vii . Acte . x. Colloss. ii Chap. Moreouer , we do submit these our sayinges and writinges , to the iudgement of all godlye persons . Whether that it be more like vnto the truth , that they do exclude & debarre the children whom Christ hath wasshed with his bloud , from the couenaunt of god ( for why do they denye vnto them , the signe of the couenaunte : and of the clensinge ? ) or that we do teche the children to be of god , redemed by Christ Iesus , whom he biddeth & wylleth to be brought vnto him , & also too be baptized ? Iudge thou Symon , and tell me whether of theim is more like to be true .

SIM .

If the matter be considered by it selfe , all contention being laid aside , the whiche ye say is moste true , and most weightie . But this I doo wonder and maruaile at , that thou doste say , that the baptisme of children hath continued in the church , euer since the tyme of the apostles , which apostles did neuer baptise chyldren . Here I doo moste earnestly desire the to bringe furthe whatsoeuer thou hast yet in store , I wyll gladly receyue all truthe : for manye of vs haue thought hetherto , that the baptism of children was brought in by the busshop of Rome

¶ The third Dialogue . That the baptysme of chyldren hath contynued in the church of Christ , euer since the apostles , vnto this time . IOIADA .

No man can denye , but the the busshop of Rome & the fathers haue added certaine things to the baptism of Christ , but no man that is wise , will say that it had his beginnyng of them , that is to say , that did begin the baptisme of children . Those things then that were added , and were repugnaunte vnto the word of god , were taken away againe , lest any man should make any busines for it . As for that , that ye bringe against vs , that the apostles did neuer baptyse children , no man lyuyng is able too proue it . For I wyll shew no small argumentes , that the apostles did baptise children , wherby thou shalt easely vnderstand that the baptisme of children hath contynued in the church of Christ , euer since the apostles time , & that it is no new inuention of the busshop of Rome . i Certayne argumentes against the Anabaptistes . First , we do make our argument vpon the force & strength of the precept and commaundement of christ & of the doctrine , after this maner : Christ did send his disciples to preche the gospel & to baptise : ergo , he did send them to baptise children . The proue of the consequence , or argument

SI.

I denye the consequence

IO.

But I wil proue it after this maner It is so farre , that the gospel shuld : reiecte & cast backe the chyldren , that it dothe rather bring than vnto Christ . Now the doctrine is greater then baptisme .i. Cor. i. cha. If the , which is greater , that is to say , the gospel is the chyldrens , that then , which is lasse that is to say , baptisme shal be theirs , Ergo , the apostles dyd baptise the chyldren

ij The seconde argument may be made and gathered vpon the nature of him , to whome baptysme is due , and whyche is able too receyue baptisme . As manye as god doth recken emong the fideles or faithfull , they are fideles , or faithfull . For Peter dyd heare this sayinge of the Lorde . That god hath purifyed or made cleane , call thou it not common or vncleane . Actes . x. chapter . He doth put the chyldren in the number of the faithfull : Ergo , the children are of the number of the fideles or faithfull , and oughte to be compted & reputed of vs emong the fideles , or faithfull , onlesse we will repugne against god and be stronger then he . Now it is most certayne , that the apostles did baptise all them that Chryst commaunded them to baptyse . Christe commaunded them too baptyse the faythfull ( as ye youre selues do graunt and confesse ) Ergo , the Apostles did baptyse the chyldren . The seconde proposition ( which is , that the children are of the number of the faythfull ) is knowen well ynough .

iii. The thyrd argument is gathered vpon the fact of Peter , which is peculier , but yet in it the publike administraction of baptism is touched . He coulde not forbyd theym the water of baptisme , that had receyued the holy ghost , but sealed them as the people of god . Ergo , he could not deny baptisme vnto the children , syth that he had learned in the gospel that the chyldren be of god , & that the kyngdom of heauen is theyrs . Who woulde thynke , that any man is mete for the kyngdom of heauen , without the holy spiryt ?

iiii . We do make & gather the fourth argument vpon the strength & force of circumcision , in stede wherof , baptisme is in the church of Christ . As many as were the seruantes of god , did afore al thinges , labour & endeuour themselues , to circumcise theyr children . Iosu . v. Exo. iiii . The Apostles were the most faithfull ministers of god : Then did not thei omit or leaue the thinge , that was not brought in , in stede of the circumcision , Ergo , thei did baptise , not onli them that were of age , but also children .

v. Fyftely we do thus reason vpon the vse & custome of the Aposltes . The Apostles of Christ did dyrecte al their doinges to the conueniencie & example of the old testament .

This we do proue by the .iiii . Euangelists , the Actes of the apostles , by the epistles of the Apostles , Rom. xv . ii . Cor. ii . ii . Tim. iii. ii . Peter .i. chap. Ergo , they dyd order baptisme after the Analogie and figure of the old Testament . The going through the red sea , The goynge thorough the read sea , is a figure of baptism was a type & figure of the baptisme that was to come .i. Cor. x. cha. Children were in the fygure ( for bothe men and women went through with theyr children ) Ergo the apostles dyd not denie baptisme vnto the children . The custome & maner of the scripture ( whiche custome and maner is vsed almost emong al nations ) is not to reherce by name , women & children , and yet neuerthelesse it doth include them , for in the name of the father of the famylie , or of the good man of the house , al hys whole famylie is comprehended , as in the chiefe or head . Yf thys were not , women shuld be in no small ieoperdy , yf therfore they were not of god , because that they be not circumcised . Al these thynges are done , by the meanes & helpe of a figure that is called Sinecdoche . The sixte argument shal be taken out of the manifest and expresse testimonies of the apostles . The apostles did baptyse al whol housholds and famylies , ergo they did baptyse children also , for the children are in the number of the famylie or housholde . Thys we do proue by the .xvii of Gene. For Abraham doth circumcise al the male children that were in his house . For he vnderstode the promys of god , that saith . I shal be thy god , & the god of thy sede . Likewyse in the new Testament , when the goodman of the house , had herd & beleued the gospell , that is to saie , the god was his god , & the god of his sede also , he caused all them that were in his house bothe greate and small , to be baptized . Thus the apostles dyd baptize hole housholds and famylies . That the children do perteyne vnto the fathers housholde & famylie , it is plaine & manifest by the .xii. of Exodus & ii . of the Actes : this do I inculcat & beate the oftener into mens heades , because that I se the Anabaptistes to be at this poynt that they do exclude the children from the famylie & houshold . for they can not denye but the hole housholds were baptized by the Apostles . But who doth not se , that this cometh of mere contention ? For though they could proue that there were no children at all in the famylies & housholdes , that the apostles dyd baptise , yet had they not proued that al families or housholds were , or be without children : wherfore we do make againe our argument after this maner The Apostles baptized al wholl housholdes , ergo , thei did baptise children , syth the children are the princypal & chief part of the familie & houshold . But let vs put the case , that there were no children in those families & housholds , that the Apostles dyd baptise , yet do they perteine & belong to the houshold , & are rekened in it , and yf there had bene any , they wolde haue baptized them . For they did baptise the wholl housholde . The fault then shuld not haue ben in the Apostles nor in the children , that thei were not baptized : but this had bene the cause that they had bene baptized , because that there were none : For if they had had children they would haue baptyzed them .

Seuenthlye , we do gather by the hystoryes & chronicles that the baptisme of children hath continued euer sens the apostles time , vnto this time . Origene , which in the yeare of our saluation . c.c . & .xii. did liue in the church of Alexandria , doth in his v. boke , that he did wryt vpon the epistle to the Romaines , testifie and witnesse that he hath receaued the baptisme of children , from , or of the Apostles . After this time , about the yeare of oure Lorde . C.C.lv. the holy man Cipryan was , he doth proue , & that with no small argumentes , the baptisme of children , in the .iii. boke of hys Epistles , and viii . epistle Adfidum , To fidus . In the yere of our lord . c.c.c.xx . Lactantius did wryte in the .iiii. boke of his diuyne Insttucion , the baptism was come in the stede of circumcision whereby all natyons should be gathered vnto the faith , & into the church . Lactantius in hys iiii . boke , & iiii . chapte Hierome which did lyue about the yere of our lord c.c.c. & lxx . doth with playn & expresse scriptures proue the baptism of children to Leta and agaynst the Pelagians . In the same self tyme and .xl. yeares after . Augustyn , beyng a man endued with great holynesse of lyfe , with exceading great erudition & learnyng , & with a sharpe and exacte iugement did teche in Aphrica . This man writeth many thinges of baptism against the Donatistes , to Marcellinus & Petilianus , where he doth manifestely saye , Chryste coulde not be baptized afore the baptism was instituted by Ihon . For the lawe dyd regne tyll them . that the church hath receiued the baptisme of children , from the apostles . I haue brought these thynges therfore that thou mayste see & vnderstand , that the baptisme of children is no new inuention , & that they whyche teche suche thinges do leane to no truth , but to plaine errour . For although christ was not baptized , tyll he was .xxx. yeares old , yet being an infant he was circumcised vpon the eyght daye , that I shoulde in the meane season let passe , that baptisme was not yet instituted , which had hys begynnyng of Ihon. But now we wyll stryke vp our sayle clothes , and shewe how vnkunninglye ye gather your argumentes , when ye do reason after this maner . We do not read that the apostles dyd baptise the chyldren of the faythfull : Ergo , they oughte not to be baptised . If we shoulde onelye goo by coniectures and reason , it is more lykelye , that the Apostles dyd baptyse the infauntes then otherwyse in the famylye , and housholde of Stephana , of Lidia , of the keper of the prison , & of other , yf at leste , there were any infantes in those famylyes and housholdes , Do not thynke good reader that we goo about to defende vnwrytten verytes . which examples ye shall neuer be able to confute . There be many things done both by Christ and by the apostles , that neuer were written . Nor we can not make our argument after this maner : This thinge was not done . ergo , it may not lawfully be done . That we shuld graunt vnto you the the apostles did baptise no children , yet haue ye not proued therfore , that children ought not to be baptized . Again we may not to thys affyrmatyue . ( The apostles dyd baptyse them that were of age & did beleue ) inferre or bringe in , this negatiue ( Ergo children ought not to be baptized ) for we may neuer , neither in the prophane nor yet in the holy scriptures , make oure argument , a facto ad ius , To argument or reasone a facto ad ius is when we go about to proue a thynge to be lawfull because the it was don afore , or elles to be vnlawfull because it was not don afore but then it is lawfull to bringe the fact and dede for a law , when it is proued that the dede was done rightfully .

SIMON .

As I do hear the controuersye is of the facte , and of the ryghte or lawfulnes .

IOI.

Thou saiest truth if anye thinge be lawfull , as soone as thou hast done it , thou hast done well though that none of the apostles did it afore the. Therfore baptisme oughte not to be denyed vnto infantes , because that we do not reade expressely , that the apostles did baptise infantes . Both because that it may be , that they did baptise infants ( as we haue proued & shewed alreadye , and hereafter , if nede be , wil shew more largely ) & yet it was not written , & also because that no mans factes ought to be preiudicial vnto the law , much lesse the things that are left vndone . Therfore , if it were written any where with plain & expresse words of the apostles after this maner : The apostles dyd not baptise infauntes , yet it shoulde not folowe that they oughte not too be baptyzed : but we oughte too enquyre and searche , whether that they lefte it vndone , because that it was notte lawfull , Christ did not baptise . Christ did not baptis & yet we ought to baptise . Ihon. iiii . Ergo , after or according to your saying , we ought not to baptise at al. Who is so mad to say so ? For the Apostles did baptise & that lawfully . Ergo , If the apostles , did baptise lawfully , though christ him silf did neuer baptise , we shal also lawfully baptise infants , though the apostles did not baptyse . There is no diuersitie at al , yea , we haue gotten the better end of the staffe , syth that we haue Christ the did not baptise , & yet we ought to baptise , and ye onelye haue the apostles . Bring ye therfore any lawe that forbiddeth to baptise children . We do not go about by these reasons & examples , as by some strong foundacion , to proue or strengthen the baptism of infantes ( For we haue many other strong arguments & foundations ) But we will shewe , the ye do both rashely & lyingly say , that the apostles dyd neuer baptise infantes or yong babes . For ye haue no testimonye of that thynge . And though ye had neuer so much , yet it shuld not folow therfore , that infantes ought not to be baptized : For vpon a thyng that is done , or left vndone , nothing can besureli concluded , but onely vpon that , whyche is sure by goddes worde to be lawful . Agayne , we did bryng so many reasons & examples to this intente , that we myght proue that it is more likely , that they dyd baptyse chyldren than otherwise .

SI.

Thou doest bost much of foundations , The chyldren are as wel of the people of god , by the strength of the couenaunt as theyr parentes . but thou bringest forth very lytle . I praie the , which be these strong foundations .

IO.

I haue cast thys foundation , that the children of the faithful are as wel within the church , and emonge the Children of god , as the parents & that by the force and strength of the promys , as wel as they were in the olde Testament . Besides the , circumcision ( as touching the sacramental meaning ) was the same thynge vnto them , that baptisme was vnto vs . Dyd I not alredie both saye & proue these things ? Why sayest thou then that I haue brought yet litle or nothing ?

SIMON .

Why dost thou take all thinges out of the olde Testament .

IO.

I know what the matter is , ye cast away the olde Testament , for ye se that the baptisme of chyldren may be proued & defended by it Dyd not both Christ and his Apostles a alege the old Testament , when so euer they wold proue and strengthen their sayings Or tell me now when Christ doth byd the Iewes to serch the scriptures , doth he not send them to the old Testament ?

SIM ,

I do not denye that .

IOI.

Why do ye blame vs then , if we folowyng the example of Christe , do strengthen & confirme our sayings with the scriptures of the olde Testament ? The newe Testament & the olde are included one with in an other The new testament is included in the old , and the old doth shadowe & proue the new . If thou be sufficyentlye perswaded in this conclusion , let vs passe furth to the other .

SI.

Certain thinges do please me wel , but that thou doest recken & number the children in the familie and houshold , I do not se it proued yet .

IO.

Diddest thou neuer se then , that men are borne of men ? & that parents ( I meane fathers and mothers ) do nourish , kepe , & brynge vp their chyldren ? Haste thou so caste of all humayne reason , vnderstandyng and affectyon ? But yet in thys moste plaine matter , I wyll bringe and alege the scriptures . Actes .ii. Chapter . We reade after thys maner : And all they that beleued , were together , or in one place , and had al thynges commen emonge theym . Here I doo aske the , whether the faythefull hadde theyr chyldren with them , or not ? If they hadde them , whye shoulde they not be then of theyr famylye and houshold . If they had them not , whye do we not reade then , that the faythefull tooke thoughte , because they myghte not haue theyr children wyth theym ? Or was the spiryte that gouerned them so cruel , that it did teache them to put away their children ,

SIMON .

We wyll not say , that they had not theim wyth theym , or that they dyd not brynge theym vp , but that they were not in the famylye and housholde of Christe .

IOIADA .

Whome do ye comprehend then , vnder the name of famylye or housholde ?

SSMON .

Suche as be of that age alreadye , that they may know what the law is , & what synne is . For he that wyll be baptyzed , muste repente : sythe that infauntes can not repente , they can not be comprehended vnder the name of the famylye , or housholde .

IOIADA .

Whye doest thou styll make vp a rope of sande , haue we not proued alreadye before that , not onelye they that be of age , oughte too be baptyzed : But yeare soo styffe necked that ye wyll in noo wyse beleue , that anye maye be baptyzed , onlesse he maye repente of hys misdedes . And by and by ye do conclude that , ergo , children ought not to be baptised . But in the meane season , ye haue not yet shewed anye lawe the orbiddeth to baptyse the chyldren . We ( as we haue declared before alreadye ) do knowe , Isaac . Agar . Ismael . that Isaac being an infaunt was so of the familie & houshold of Abraham that he did cause his father to put awaye the bond woman , with her childe . For Paul saith with Moises : The sonne of the bond woman shal not be heire , with my sonne Isaac , he was heyre , then without doubte he was of the familie , for they that be not heires , as seruantes & fre men are of the familie . Exo. xii . We reade after thys maner : If ani stranger wil come to dwel emong you , & kepe the passeouer of the lorde , let al his male children be circumcised , & then he shal kepe it well . Why is it said , al his male children ? Doth this pertein onely to them the be of age ? It is your part then to proue , that they which receiue the seale of the church of god , according to the religion of theyr parents , are not of the familye and housholde of their parentes . But I wil bryng an oher testimonye . In the .xxi. of Acts , Luk writeth after this maner : And after certen daies , we departed from thens & they al brought vs on our way , with their wiues & children . Were al these children of age ? Or if they were not of age , were they not of the familie & houshold of theyr parents ? What myracle , or what affection was it if the men did onely bring forth the apostle on his way , with their wiues & yong men ? But this was the greate affection , that the fathers with their wiues , did beare & draw their children with them , as in suche a busines it is wont to be . Now , they dyd not draw with them , other mens , but their own children . Ergo , they were of their familie .

SI.

What though they pertain to theyr familie & houshold ? Doth it folow therfore that they wer baptized ?

IO.

How shuld then Paul say , that he hath baptized the houshold of Stephana , which he had not baptized , if there were children in it , whom he had not admitted or receued ? Again , in the Acts , it is said . He was baptyzed ( that is to say ) ( the keper of the prison ) & al his houshold . At the begininge of the church the faythfull wer wont to folow the example of Abraham and of his posteritye . Why wil ye not se that at the beginning , the faithfull wer wont to do as Abraham & his posteritie , which did circumcise al their seruants , & not only their children ? And in the .xii. of Exodus ( as it is said alredy before ) al the male children of the familie , are commaunded to be circumcised & yet there no mention of faith , or of the knowlege of god ( which thinges ought to be cared for aboue al thinges ) is made there .

SI.

Thou semest too me alwaies to leaue those things , the make agaynst thee . For in the epistle to the Corin. Paule nameth such a familye and houshold , doth manifestly declare , that not infants & yong babes , but suche as haue reason & vnderstanding , ought to be vnderstanded . For he saith : ye know the house of Stephana , that they are the first frutes of Achaia , & haue giuen them selues to the seruice of the saints be ye obedient to them , and to all the worke & labour with them . Why do ye not speake of suche a familie & housholde ?

IO.

We haue said alredy , & that often , that thys is a Sinecdochicall phrase , or maner of speaking : such as is .i. Cor. x. . Al our fathers were vnder the cloude , for infantes were also vnder the cloude : but no expresse mention is made of them . Al went through the sea , but the infants could not go through Thei went through then , that went not thorow , but were born by them that went thorow . So there were some in the familye of Stephana , that beleued first of al Achaia , there were also some of the congregation that could not yet beleue in dede , for lack of age , nor giue them selues to the ministerye & seruice of the Saints . Al wer baptized in Moses : he speketh al things of the fathers that is to lay , of the aunceters & grandfathers whom notwithstandinge , we do so take , that thei that were then children , are now called fathers by Paul . For the people of Israel was of them . Therefore , not onely they that were of age , were baptized in Moises , but also the infants . For if they that were then infants , were not baptized in the going thorough of the red sea , then Paul said not wel that al were baptized in Moises . For they were also ( as we haue said afore ) the fathers of them that came after .

SIM .

This was a figure , what shalt thou then proue by it ?

IO.

I am wel content . It was a figure that as the infants were then of the family as wel of the earthly father , as of the heauenly , and were signed or sealed with theyr sacramentes , that so now , they that are the children of the christians , syth that they are the chyldren of god also , ought to vse the sacramente of the children of god . Thou canst finde no starting hole , to escape at . For ye do folyshlye vpon factes and exaumples , brynge in a negatiue : yea , rather vpon neyther factes nor examples , that is to say , ye do vnwisely make your argument , after this maner : Thys thing was done , as we maye proue both by testimonies & examples : Ergo , that thinge oughte not to be done . For what other thing can ye alege for your selfs : but we do not read , that the apostles did baptise infantes : ergo , they ought not to be baptized . We do not so : but we might stay our selues vpon facts & examples ( if ye woulde stand to ) after this maner . The infantes of the Hebrues were al baptized vnder the cloud , & in the sea● , as well as ours . For Paul doth altogether proue there in the foresaid place , that they were no lesse initiated with our sacraments , than we are our selues . First & formeste , then it foloweth , that in Paules time , The fathers had the same sacraments that we haue the apostles were wont to baptise infants . Secondly , that whosoeuer denieth that he doth deprauate & marre the sentence of Paul . For what other thing doth he there , but make al things equal ? and that we are not aboue , or superiours vnto them , nor they inferyours vnto vs ? For he attributeth the same sacramentes vnto them , that we haue , & the same vnto vs , that thei had , as Colloss. ii . Now al those auncient fathers could not haue bene baptized as wel as we , yf we be not al baptized with our familie & housholdes . Them al therefore being baptized and made equall vnto vs it is manifest and plain , that as all their infantes were baptized in the red sea in Moises that so in the apostles time , al the children of the christians , This figure Senecdoche is when eyther some whol thynge , is taken for parte of it , or part of it for the wholl , as ye shall herafter haue examples enowghe . were baptized in Christe . It is then Sinecdochically spoken of the children of Israel : They went al through the sea , where as , after the letter or literally , the going thorough , is applyed onely vnto them , that were in health , & of age to go through their selfes . And al thei did eate one spiritual meate , where as thei only did eate , that were spiritual , & yet neuerthelesse it is spoken of al them that did eat . In lyke maner , yf paul in this place had added this word ( All ) & so had sayd : All they of the house of Stephana haue geuen them selues to the ministerie & seruyce of the saintes , yet by the force & strength of this figur Sinecdoche we shuld vnderstand , that there were infantes in the familie and houshold , and that they , which had beleued alredie , had geuen them selues vnto the Lord . For this is the nature of this figure Synecdoche , that when there is some wholl body , that hath many partes , which in some thinge are lyke , & in some thinge vnlyke , yf any thing is spoken of the wholl body , the same may be vnderstanded of a singular part of it : Again , yf any thinge is spoken of any singular part , the same may lyke wyse be vnderstand of the wholl body . Learne ye this that I say , by familyar examples . All wholl Iurye went forthe vnto hym : Here ye se , that al Iury is put only for them , that went forth vnto hym , & that ther be to maner of Synecdoche , the one wherby that which conteyneth any thyng , is taken for that , which is conteyned , as the contrey of Iurye , for al the inhabitours : & the other , wherby , it is sayd that al the inhabitours went forth , wher as parte only did go forth vnto him . Contrary wyse in Esaye . The daughters of Syon . iii. Because that the daughteres of Syon , are waxen proude , there the daughters are parte of Syon . and yet they are taken for all the wholl people , and especyally for the prynces and rulers , whiche vngodly did rise agaynst the Lorde . Exo xvi . All the congregatyon dyd murmure against Moses . But how did the children murmure , whyche knewe not what was done ? The anabaptystes are ignoraunt in those thinges that serue to expound the letter which thei stycke to alwayes . If they did not murmur & grudge al the congregation did not murmur : For the infants were of the congregation . Nowe se , I praye that , what pratinge smatteres ye are , the thinge , that ye trust most vpon , ye are most shamefully ignorant in . For ye stick to the letter , but ye are ignoraunt in the thing , that doth most chyefely serue to vnderstand & expound the letter . Tel I besech that , Simon to whom is it sayd : Do not take the name of thy Lorde god in vayne . Thou shalte not steale , & suche like ?

SI.

To them that were of age , which are the people , & congregation of god .

IO.

Ergo , because that these thinges can not be said vnto the children , shall thei not be of the church & people of God ? God forbid : For Infantes were the members of the people of god , & fathers of nacions & peoples . Gene. xxv . It is plaine and manifeste then , that what soeuer is spoken , to any wholl body or generalitie : Marke ye this . And in the same generaletye there is some part , to whom that which is spoken , is not applied , yet notwithstanding it is of the body , yea , though certain thing do pertain nothing vnto it . Agayne , if any thyng be spoken to part of the body , or of the generality , whiche not withstandyng , doth not pertayne vnto the parte : It perteyneth so to the wholl body , that it toucheth and admonisheth only those partes , that maye be subiect vnto that , which is spoken . Thou art myne enheritaunce , O Israel . To whom is this spoken ? Is not this spoken to the wholl posteritye of Israel ? But children do not vnderstand it . It foloweth not therfor , that thei are not of the enheritaunce or of the peculier people . But though it is a parte , that vnderstandeth not what is said , yet neuertheles it perteineth to the whol body . In like maner , when Christ saieth : Go ye , teach al nations baptizing them &c. The apostles did teche as many as were able to receaue the doctrine , & baptized as many , as were able to receaue baptism ,

SI.

Therfore I do thinke the infantes ought not to be baptized , syth that Christ saith so expressely : Go thorough out al the wholl world , & prech the gospel , whosoeuer shall beleue & is baptized &c. Going forth , teache ye all nations .

IO.

This is the only refuge that ye alwaies flee to , although Christ , had instituted baptism there , where as Ihon & the apostles did both prech & baptise long afore , when Christ was yet a lyue : The contention was emonge the apostles touchyng the preching of the gospel to the gentles . There was a contention emong the apostles , whether the gospell ought to be preached to the gentyles , or not . Which contention did rise partlie of a false conclusion & coniecture , & parttely of a likelyhode . The false conclusion or coniectur was this : Christ is promised vnto vs , ergo he doth not perteyne or belonge to that gentyles . Who is so without vnderstanding , which doth not perceaue , that this can folow by no mean ? The messias is promissed vnto vs that be Iues , ergo , he doth nothing perteine to gentyles . For it maie be that he is also promissed to the gentyles , which thing the scriptures do testefy in many places . In the same self maner do ye gather your argument , but falsely : The wrytinges of the apostles do testifye & witnesse , that they did baptise them , that had both harde & beleued the word : ergo , thei did not baptise infantes . For these .ii. sentences mai both be true . The apostles did baptise them that beleued : & : the Apostles did baptise infants . Ye do make an indefinite proposityon , an exclusyue or negatiue proposition , that is to saye , ye do make of a sentence that affyrmeth , a sentence the vtterly deneith . For both these are negatyues : No man ought to be baptized , onlesse he doth beleue , & : Infants ought not to be baptized . Ye were not hetherto able to proue anye of them by the scriptures . The lykelyhode wherby the apostles were moued to think , that the gospel ought not to be preached , vnto the gentyles , was thys : In their fyrst mission & sending , they were forbiden to go into that waye of the gentyles : whyche word myght had caused them to contend & stryue , and that stoutely , that Christe was mynded to kepe him selfe for the hebrewes onely . Yf ye had now any such word , O lord god , so ye would triumphe agaynste vs . Marke thou therfore . These .ii. commundementes ( Go ye & teche all nations baptizing them : & : Go through out all the wholl world , & preach the gospel ) were a dispensation & an abolisshyng of this interdicte or prohibition ( ye shal not go into the waie of the gentilles . ) For they had alredy before both taught and baptyzed , which thyng eyther ye do not marke , or elles ye do dissemble it craftely . He doth therfore open the wholl prouynce of al the wholl world vnto them the were afore included & in a maner shut vp with in the borders of Iury . These places then are set against the fyrst , Antithesis is a figure where by one contrary is set agaynste the other . as twoe Anttytheses .

SI.

The place the thou hast aleged before out of the second of the Act , doth make greatli against thee . For it shuld folow , the infantes had both solde & distributed theyr goods , & many other thinges myght be gathered thervpon .

IOIADA .

When ye gather your argument after this maner : Yf the infantes be numbered emong the faythfull : It foloweth , the they dyd sel and distribute theyr goodes , the they dyd praye & breake bread , for they the beleued , dyd so . Who doth not see , that ye expounde all thynges after the letter , & yet ye doo not weyghe & ponder it ? The infantes are of the familie & houshold of their parentes , which thynge we haue proued sufficienly before , whom sith that ye had rather to comprehend vnder the name of houlshold stuffe , then of the faithfull , ye do not only in this thing , most vngodly , but also most cruelly . It is not requieted in this figur Synecdoche , that whatsoeuer is spoken or said of some whol body the same be verified of al partes . For then it is no Sinecdoche : When that which is spoken , may be veryfied of al partes , it is no trope nor figur . But then it is a true sinecdoche , when eyther some part is taken for the wholl body , or elles the wholl bodi for part therof . As in Exo. xxiii . where it is written : That al the male kynde shal apeare before the Lord thrise in the year , here thou seest thys word ( All ) Tell me now , were all the chyldren in the cradelles caried from al Palestina thrise in the yeare to Hierusalem ? If thou say est that it was so , ergo the infantes ( according to thy reason ) did .vii. dayes eate unleauened bread , did sowe fyeldes , did offer the fyrst frutes . Which thyng syth that they did not : it foloweth that the male chyldren are not comprehended . If they were nott brought , then this is not true that all the male kind did thrise in the year apear befor the lorde : & though at the first sight , it semeth to haue a shew , that al the male children are commaunded to come to the thre feastes , yet for al that , thei are onely bound by the lawe , that are of the age , that may heare & vnderstand the doctryne , or offer the fyrst frutes , or beare about branches of trees accordyng to the variety of the feastes & fashion of the rightes As it is written Deut. xxxi. of the commyng to the lecture or reading of the lawe : it apeareth the those children did come , which did alredi begyn to vnderstand , what was red .

SI.

What is this figure Sinecdoche , or from whens doth it come ?

IO.

Synecdoche , is compounded of Syn , Wherof synecdoch commeth . ek , and Dechome . As yf a man should saye : When I do take an wholl bodye , I do vnderstande some thinge a parte , or by it selfe of those thinges , the are together comprehended in the same body . It maye in laten be called comprehensio , howbeit it agreeth not all together with the Greke word . But what do we stryue for the word ? Tell me now , haue these things that we haue reasoned vpon he therto , satisfied the ?

SI.

I haue nothing to say against so manifest scriptures . Nor it is not decent that a man shuld repugne agaynst the trueth . I would that thou shuldest take mine obiections although , thei did procede from an ignoraunce person , which yet coueteth to be taught and instructed .