An aunswer to the first chap : concerning our pretended manifest folly , & apparent bad spirit , in chusing the argument and subiect of our former Bookes .

IT is a world to see the boldnesse of F. Parsons in all his writings , concerning these our late garboyles in England , but especially in this his last rayling Treatise , intituled A manifestation of follies , &c. I must needs lay the worke vnto his charge , so euidently doth it shew it selfe , both in the manner of style , phrases , particuler words , vsuall in other his writings , as also diuers things related and excused , which could proceede from no other forge , then Vulcans .

In this his Treatise , as he immodestly , and most falsly dealeth against vs , yea and contrary to his owne knowledge , and conscience , ( as you shall most euidently perceiue by this reply ) so also , after his accustomed manner , doth he deale with no small cunning , as well in concealing of truths , sometimes totally , sometimes in part , as also by couert , and fine colouring , and fashioning of the falshoods hee deliuereth in such sugred , and pleasing manner , as with ease hee may deceiue the well-meaning minde , especially drawne by affection towards his habite , and religion , from whence nought els , but veritie and iustice should flowe . But as this kinde of poyson is most dangerous , and infectiue , because tempered with sweete mixtures , and shewe of compassion , where indeede nought els but deceite lurketh ; so I hope it wil be with more care , and diligence auoyded , and reiected of all sorts , when by this our reply , his cunning deceits shall euidently appeare in theyr proper colours , the poyson beeing extracted from the hony , and the subtile deceauing vntruths , sequestred from the sugred and smooth sentences , Declaratio motuum . wherewith they are cloked .

First therefore concerning our first booke intituled Declaratio motuum et turbarum , he sayth it containeth nothing , but a certaine intemperate inuectiue against many good , and worthie men , &c. and is prooued by no other reasons , authorities , or testimonies , but the wordes of passionate writers , &c. Let euery indifferent man , that vnderstandeth the Latine tongue , reade our aforesaid discourse , and but indifferently iudge thereof , whether it be without proofe , authoritie , or testimonie . First it was published not by one man , but by diuers , and in the right and name of many , which were men woorthy to be thought sufficient , whose testimonies might passe currant in law .

Secondly , the matters related , were matters of fact , and euen then in practise , and too too well knowne vnto all our Country at home , if not to all the world abroade . For proofe whereof , I refer my selfe to all Cath: in England , concerning the matter of schisme maintained by the Iesuits , & Archpriest against vs , with infinite violence , much infamy for the time , and innumerable particuler wrongs therupon , not vnknown to the meanest Cath: in England . All which seuerall iniuries are touched in that discourse , besides diuers other particulers , as of intermedling in matters of state , discouer'd by theyr owne foolish bookes , pamphlets , euident practises , letters , & messages , which I omit as needlesse to rehearse , referring the Reader to the booke it selfe .

Thirdly , that booke was but a declaration , or setting downe of many things in generall to be particulerly proued in time , and place conuenient , where reformation was expected : as I doubt not , but they haue found to no great aduantage since ; and therfore not to containe particuler proofes of euery assertion , though for the most part they be euident ( as I haue sayd ) in themselues .

Fourthly , I wish the Reader to consider the weakenesse of this Calumniation , besides the vntruth , and folly thereof by this one Consideration , that the booke was dedicated to his Holines , in a quarrell which wee meant to pursue ( as you see we haue doone ) and therefore not like to containe such iniurious , and manifest false slaunders , with an intemperate inuectiue against good men , ( as this good Father affirmeth ) vnlesse we were mad men , and cleane depriued of wit , and common sence . For in so dooing , wee should haue prouided whips & scourges for our selues , and ouerthrowne our cau●e ( though otherwise neuer so iust , and honest : ) when wee had come to the tribunall of his holines . Add to this , that the booke hauing beene presented to his holines , and perused , and by vs iustified still : no condemnation thereof hath yet come from thence , but it passeth currantly without imputation of such slaunderous falshoods , and inuectiues against good men , as this man would make you belieue . See by this what weight his assertions carry , and marke how worthy of credit hee will proue heereafter .

Of the second booke , The copies of discourses . intituled The copies of discourses , &c. he affirmeth that the first part is contrary to the second , & so doth both aunswer and confound it selfe , &c. And why ( forsooth ) are they contrarie to themselues ? Because ( saith hee ) in the former discourses , we stoode onely vpon the Popes owne Letters to confirme those of Cardinall Caietane , assuring them that when any such should come from his holines , there should be no more controuersie ; and yet in the next ensuing discourses , his holines breve of approbation beeing then published , he saith wee were much farther of from obeying the Archpriest , then before . This is the worthy contradiction which aunswereth and confoundeth all therein written .

Beleeue me I doe stand heere at a non plus , doubting whether I should excuse this poore man , by imputing some strange weaknes of braine , or distemperature in his head of late befallen him , which bereaueth him eyther totally of his wit , or partly impayreth his iudgement , or wholy depriueth him of his memory : or whether I should flatly condemne him of ouer-much impudencie . Faine I would that some of the former defects in nature might excuse his folly : but I feare me , that if I should goe about so to excuse him , I should not be beleeued . Wherefore I must of necessity leaue him to himselfe , as hee is , and let the burden light vppon his shoulders , as it may . For hauing vndertaken it , I must needs open the truth , though to his shame and losse .

You shall therefore vnderstand , that in very deede the first occasion of our standing out from the Archpriest , was the strange and vnusuall bringing of him in vppon vs by the Iesuits , and the iust doubts , and difficulties which wee conceiued in his pretended authoritie , as well concerning the manner , as the substance thereof : yet were we content , and offered ( though to our wrong ) to submit our selues , when by any Apostolicall writ wee might be assured of his holines pleasure that so he had appointed , & would haue it so to be . And to be informed heereof with more speed , we sent two of our brethren to Rome , to propose our difficulties to his holines , & expect his resolution .

Wee will omit heere to speake of their good entertainment by Fa: Parsons , theyr Iaylor , being els where sufficientlie discoursed . In the interim how we were vsed at home , you both saw with your eyes , & haue heard often related . Whilst our brethren were in durance in Rome , Fa: Parsons procured this Breve hee speaketh of . To the which wee all presentlie without delay ( as himselfe knoweth , and in the Apologie professeth , though with vncharitable interpretation ) submitted our selues , as we had promised : but that there would be no more controuersie , neither could wee , neither euer did wee promise ; for that was more in the Archpriest , & the Iesuits to hinder or performe , then in vs . All cause of former controuersie had beene occasioned by them by intermedling in our affaires , and appointing Superuisors for vs , and in raysing , and maintaining the note of schisme against vs most vniustly , as all the world now seeth . And therefore , although we might promise for our selues , yet could wee not make any such absolute assurance , the greatest stroke thereof lying in them , and so little hope giuen vs of true performance of sincere peace indeede .

But to proceede , hauing thus submitted our selues , a generall peace ( as we thought ) was concluded by each partie , and order taken , that the note of schisme should perpetuallie be buried in obliuion , and no more vrged against vs . This the Archpriest promised , both for himselfe and the Iesuits , aswell at the attonement , as also to some afterwards in particuler . But yet so wel was this performed on his , & the Iesuits parts , that within one month , or six weekes , the same was a fresh set a flote against vs , as well in places , where we conuersed , as in other places also where we neuer had beene . And to confirme , and concurre with these proceedings , the Archpriest sent his directions into all parts , that none of vs should be admitted to the sacrament , without speciall acknowledging that we had been Schismatiques . Whereuppon we were indeede refused in sacraments , reiected from the Alter , and accounted as infamous persons : and Listers Libell was defended , as sound and true doctrine , which charged vs with disobedience , rebellion , and I know not what .

The Archpriest spred Letters against vs , made Decrees , refused conference , commaunded vs silence , and forbad vs to appeale , &c. All these things are not vnknowne to Father Parsons , and that by these vncharitable courses , wee were enforced against our wills , to seeke for remedy to the Sea Apostolicke , by course of lawe , and iustice : from the which notwithstanding the Archpriest , and Iesuits sought against all law and order of iustice to hinder and forbid vs . How can it then iustly be saide , that the ensuing discourses , which proceeded vppon this second wrong , were contrary to the first , that proceeded onely vppon difficulties of the institution of the Archpriests office : or how doe they shew , that we were much further from obeying the Archpriest then before ? or doe they not rather shew the vniust & yncharitable proceeding of the Iesuits , and Archp : in reuiuing after the attonement their old calumniations of schisme &c. against innocent priests , and their obstinate violence in prosecuting the same , notwithstanding the euidence of the matter , and the resolution of the most famous Vniuersitie of Paris against them ? Where were then this mans wits , or his honestie , that hee coulde shufle vp such contradictions , and gather out of our due proceedings , such great repugnancie in vs from obedience ? What way in the world I beseech you , ( if you be of any iudgement or capacitie ) could Catho : priests rather take in these so great difficulties , and controuersies , to shew theyr dutie and obedience to Gods Church , then by seeking humbly vnto her bosome and lap , for euidence & reformation in such doubts and troubles ? And nowe add to this the effect therof , clearing vs from all note of disobedience in those proceedings , which may giue sufficient testimonie of our sinceritie , and of their iugling .

To the other two bookes , viz. The hope of peace , and Relatio Turbarum to the Inquisition : The hope of peace . hee saith so little , but yet so vncharitably , Relatio turbarum . as it well discouereth more enuie , ( of which he speaketh so much in the Preface ) then either sufficiencie , or modestie . For well he might haue left the approbation , or condemnation of the booke to the holy Inquisition , vnto the iudgement and censure of those woorthy persons ( whom his holines hath made presidents , and Iudges in such affaires ) and not haue arrogated the same by preuention vnto himselfe . But the poore man sawe well enough , that the acceptance thereof was not so vngratefull or hatefull vnto the wisedome of those Fathers , ( who proceede not ordinarily in such cases after his will , but maturely , with iudgement , iustice , and discretion ) and that no such censure or reprehension was likely to come from thence against the booke ; and therefore hee thought it good to beginne betime to play his part , least the Comedie should die for want of Actors .

For the hope of peace , let them of iudgement , that haue read it , censure whether it be nothing but vanity & scurrility , or doth not rather open much bad dealing of the Archpriest , in those Letters . Now let vs come to the discourse of the stirrs begun at Wish : concerning which matters , as hee refers you to the 6. chapter of his Apologie , so to countermaunde him therein , we refer you to our relation , being more large and perspicuous . But ( saith hee ) in the sixt chapter of the Apologie , matters are set downe plainly , sincerely , with order and perspicuitie , without amplifications , or exaggerations , as in our discourse hapneth . To this wee retort the same in effect for our aunswer : that in our discourse , howsoeuer the method misliketh his Mastership , there is more sinceritie , more plaine dealing , & perspicuitie vsed , then in his Apologie , and not so much amplification and exaggeration as the matter it selfe required . Who now shall be iudge in this , whether this good Fa: or we say truest ? But ( saith hee ) wee haue this with approbation by Letters vnder the Priests owne handes and testimonie : Yea but ( say we ) this is but good Fa: Parsons owne saying , and to vs vnknowne , howsoeuer belieued . But to controll this vanitie , wee say that our relation was writ by the Priests themselues that liued in these garboyles , and are yet aliue , and readie to proue , what they haue writ . Yea but ( saith hee ) they be of the contrarie part , and partiall relaters . And who I pray you ( good Fa: ) were your informers ? were they not of the other side , and as partiall in theyr owne cause , as the other ? Besides , your informations were in fragments from this man , and that man by flying Letters ; in which it is probable men will speak the best for themselues , and excuse the worst ; which others will be aduised , how they doe in publishing things to the worlds view , that euery man may controll as they finde occasion .

And it partly appeareth , that our friendes dealt somewhat more faithfully then this Fa : would haue you to thinke ; in that they omit no wordes , or circumstance , or action in the aduerse part , which might make shew of any excuse for them : as appeareth in that this Fa : collecteth some matters thereby to excuse his friends intentions , euen out of the discourse it selfe , which might haue beene either omitted , or otherwise related , if our friends had studied falshoods , as he affirmeth . Furthermore , we haue testimonies of those proceedings by such , as were dealers in the composing of matters there , and heard both parties ; which this good Fa: wanteth . And for my selfe , I can say somewhat in that behalfe , both for the proofe of that discourse , as also the detecting of this Gentlemans shufflings in the setting downe of matters , ( as yee shall heereafter see ) hauing beene my selfe present , and a dealer with my poore indeuours to haue helpt forward , the composing of matters there , by which both hee , and you shal easily see ( if you will see ) where the truth goeth , and where the discredite will lie .

And now to his first question : That if all had been true , that Fa: Weston had sought , or accepted the Agencie , how that odious consequence might be inferred : that , if they had preuayled heerein , by the same platforme they would haue gouerned the priest abroad . To this question : because the good Fa: will make himselfe ignorant in his owne plots , and policies , I will helpe him forth , to put him in minde thereof , that you may see a little into their dealings , and the cunning of theyr proceedings . First you must vnderstand ( as I imagine you will easily conceiue ) that no Statist in the worlde ( in which degree the Iesuits will giue place to none ) will openlie set forth to all mens view , the last end , and intentions of theyr workings , or plots : For that were to discouer their drifts to their opposers , & to procure preuention , which no man that intends a worke would willingly finde . Suppose then , that the Iesuits should haue had such an intention ( as I will easilie demonstrate them to haue had ) would you thinke them so simple ( beeing such exact polititians ) as to make known this theyr drift and intention vnto vs ? Well then meanes they must finde fittest , and most conuenient for the secret compassing of this designe , that their policie might not presently be spied , before the matter were cock sure .

Now let me but aske you in your reasonable setled iudgement without partialitie ; could there be a better meanes deuised , then first to begin in that place , where the grauest , and best deseruing Priests of our Country were in durance for Gods cause ; by the presence of whom , the very house was a Sion vnto our Country , and a Lanterne vnto all Catholicks abroad ? For why ; if once they had setled their gouernment there without checke , or controll , what Priest durst to haue gainsaid their dominion abroad , but straight way hee should haue had his mouth stopped with the voluntary submission of those graue priests , and designed Martyrs ? Which , how great a checke it would haue beene to any contradiction in that case , and how sufficient a reproofe vnto the contradictor , I leaue to euery indifferent man to iudge . And he which is not willing to conceiue heereof , let him but read the annales of the Primitiue Church , and he shall finde what authoritie the actions , and examples of Confessors in prison carried with the Christians in those daies : insomuch that what was done by them , was helde as inviolable , yea haynous to be contradicted of the Bp: himselfe , as may well appeare by the dissention in Affrica , about the receauing of some lapsed Christians by the Confessors , & examples of peace deliuered them , and the reiecting of the same by S. Cyprian & other Bishops : whereupon grew great garboyles , both in the Clergie , and Laïtie , with parts-taking , and running , and writing to Rome about the matter . But you will say , that although indeede this had beene a probable course , to haue attained vnto that scope : yet doth it not proue , that the Iesuits had any such intention , neyther is it likely they should goe about any such matter , beeing indeed odious in the sight of any indifferent man , as also Fa: Parsons heere confesseth . To this I aunswer , that not my words , but their owne actions , and words shall discouer their intentions . And by the way I request of you , but open eares , and indifferent iudgements to thinke , but what you shall see more then probable , yea euident , and iudge accordingly . Let not the conceit of a religious habite abuse your vnderstanding , where reason conuinceth the contrarie . The habite is not to be blamed if men abuse it , but rather the man to be condemned , that abuseth the habite . Wee iudge all those to be sheepe , which carrie woll on their backs : yet experience saith , that somtimes the fox clothes himselfe in the sheepeskinne . Shal we therefore cry out against the wooll , or not rather chasten the fox , which abuset the pelt ? If then an exorbitant religious person be found , condemne not his habite : for that is innocent ; but correct his manners , which proceede not from his clothes , or profession , but his person : neither let your iudgments fall , where experience is too manifest : for that were but ouermuch simplicitie , and to giue place to all hypocrisies .

Consider therefore two thinges , the religion with the habite , and the man inuested in both . The religion , & habite , challengeth reuerence , but the person , as he deserueth . He is a mad man , I thinke , which should deeme ambition , to be no ambition , because it is couered with ragges : so shall he be no lesse foolish , who thinketh a man to be no man , because he is a religious man . No no , they are men , and therefore may erre , & erroneous were the contrarie conceit , yea meere foolishnes . Wherefore , I request but indifferencie , to measure their intentions by their manifest actions , and open wordes ; and then if you finde not the spirit of a Monarchie to haue raigned amongst them in these their endeuours , blame me of rash iudgement , and no vnderstanding at all .

First then ( as I haue manifested vnto you ) Wisbitch was the fittest place to assay this enterpise , and to lay the surest foundation of such intentions . Nowe would I but faine knowe , what other intention , then gouernment , & soueraigntie they could haue in that practise ? You will aunswere ( I dare say ) as this good Father doth , that they were requested vnto it : yea , and ouer-pressed too , by the importunitie of the rest , liuing in that place , and that Fa: Weston vnwillingly accepted therof , yea also refused to be any Superiour , but onely a spirituall directer vnto the rest , and therfore reiected all names of superioritie . Oh Sir , let me come a little neerer vnto you : you may not run away with this faire smooth tale ; there is more in the winde then so . I pray you good Fa: if dominion were not heereby affected in your fellowes , how chaunced it , that your subiect Fa : Weston , when hee was scarce well warme in the house , at his first comming thether , had dealing secretlie vnderhand for suffrages to get the gouernment of the rest ? If you will not belieue there was any such matter , let them speake which gaue their names , and your subiect Ma. Pond the Collector : let Ma. Wigs ghost come in against you , who perceiuing the drift thereof , after he had giuen his name , called to see the paper againe , and tare it in peeces , and so ouerthrew that first practise . What els could this shewe , but an affectation of rule and gouernment ? But you wil say to countermaund this illation , that Fa: Weston beeing named afterwards one of the three , which should gouerne the rest , vtterly refused it , as a thing against his institute and order , which argueth that he affected no such matter .

Alas , hee should haue had copartners , which is no small checke to soueraigntie , ioyned with ambition : and therefore refused not the thing , but the manner of the thing , not suting his humour . Yea , say you , these are but wordes : what proofe , or iudgements haue you , to drawe you into this conceite ? Marry sir I haue his owne actions sithence , in the last garboyle , more then manifesting his former intentions , wherein he not onely sought the soueraignty , but maintained it with such violence , that no man might alter , or moue him to let fall those desperate attempts , begun with the scandall of all the world . Witnesse this , a Gentleman or two that came vnto him vpon their knees , intreating him with great griefe of mind , to respect the generall scandall arising by those proceedings , and to forgoe and reiect that course ; whom he answered in peremptorie manner , wishing them to content themselues , for that it was gone further , then could be recalled : & that shortly it should be seene confirmed vnder hands , and seales . Witnes this the directions giuen by his Prouinciall Fa: Garnet , that he should not begin the separation , but suffer his associats first to begin , that the enuie ( so it pleased him to say ) might not fall vpon him , but his followers . Witnesse his ouermuch hast in beginning the separation himselfe , contrary to his directions ; which shewed ouer-much desire of rule . Witnes his backwardnes to be drawne to any indifferent composition , beeing moued thereunto by such , as dealt about the composing of such stirres ; of which my selfe can and will witnes vppon my oath . Witnes his resisting of his owne Superiour , beeing commaunded by him to surcease : which commaundement he refused to obey , affirming that he was not bound therein to obey him , vntill such time , as his owne associats beganne to draw backe from him , and mislike him therein : Let Ma: Mush , and Ma: Dudley testifie this point , and the rest there present . If all these proceedings so euident , doe not manifest both his , and their desire , of ruling their brethren , iudge you .

But you will say , that this affectation of rule , if it were affected by him , was not generall ouer all in the house , but only ouer some voluntaries , who chose willingly to submit themselues vnto his direction , and not to inforce any to submit themselues . To this I aunswer you , that in this lay more subtiltie , and craft , then you will seeme to perceiue . Here indeed was couched the chiefest policie , and cunning of their plot , and intention . For although they made shewe onely of a voluntarie retire , leauing the rest to themselues , yet had they so involued them with calumniations , and slaunders , ( which is a common ground of the Iesuits building ) that , without manifest note of infamie , they could not , but submit their necks vnto the Iesuits new gouernment ; which you shal easily perceiue , if you but consider all circumstances . For before they had made their separation , they gaue out many rumors of haynous offences , practised in that house without specifying any particuler person . And when they burst out into their separation , they published these causes in excuse of their fact ; sct : propter scandala , siue peccata mortalia , &c. for scandals , & mortall sins committed , or like to happen amongst them , they were enforced vnto that separation , & retyre of gouernment . Now would I but aske of you this one question ; When such things are spred of a communitie , or house in generall , and thereuppon a retyred life prescribed , and vndertaken of some and refused of others , whom you would iudge in your conceit , like to be those disordered companions , amongst whom such enormities were frequent ? I doubt not but you will presently suppose the refusing part , to be of that bad disposition : for that louing libertie , they refused to submit themselues to discipline . This I assure my selfe you would aunswer , without scruple ; and to confirme this to be so , euen when these things fell out first , it so hapned , the generall voyce condemning the refusing part vpon the foresaid grounds .

Iudge now ( I beseech you ) whether this was not a pretie policie to haue enforced the rest to submit themselues , being drawne within these streights by this plot : and then had the breach been made , and way to the sequell we speake of . But you wil yet say , that happily such disorders were in the house , yea , and amongst those men also , as they had not onely reason , but were in a sort constrained vnto that separation . To this I aunswer : first that such a separation from Communion at the table , and at diuine offices vpon such reasons , is not verie far from Donatus the Arch-hereticks case , who at the first vpon the like reasons , refused ( as hee said ) to communicate with other Bishops of Affrica .

Secondly , I say , that if such things had beene , yet were they bound in conscience to haue concealed them , because they were secret , and vnknowne abroade , as I appeale vnto all the Catholicks of England for proofe hereof , whether any fame of such matters were heard , before the beginning of this ambitious seperation . Thirdly , I answer , that of mine own knowledge , being present at the ripping vp of these matters , generall leaue was giuen by the vnited part vnto the separated , to say what they could , & accuse whom they could of any such crime , sub pena talionis , and they would admit any competent or indifferent iudge , to haue the hearing & censuring of the delinquents ; and they refused to ioyne any such issue with them . Furthermore , my selfe being present , and witnes vnto all this , I went vnto Fa: Weston , and asked him , if hee would accuse any man in particuler , and he refused : wheruppon I told him , that hee , and the rest of his company , were then bound , to cleere them of such iniust suspicions ; which if they would doe , either by word before witnesse , or vnder their hands , the refusing part would suffer them , to goe forwards with their course begun , which if they refused to doe , beeing in conscience bound thereto , ( as I told him my opinion was they were ) then could not they suffer them to proceed in that maner , vnlesse they would willingly vndergo such infamie , as thereby redounded vnto them , which none ( vnlesse they were cruell to themselues ) would permit . But all was in vaine ; hee refused & reiected all offers , without regard to my motion .

By this you may see how guiltie these poore men were of such crimes imputed vnto them , & how iniuriously forsooth the Iesuits were charged with a purpose and policy , to compasse a monarchiall dominion , and gouernment ouer them . And yet will the Iesuits go about ( as Fa: Weston then did vnto me ) to defend that no wrong heereby was doone vnto any , in that no man was named in particuler . A cunning policie ( which yet is common vnto the Iesuits ) to spread generall suspicions , and infamies abroad ; and when they come to the touch , to excuse themselues by certaine generalities . Did they not so in the matter of schisme , first spread the infamie , and then excuse themselues , because no man was named in particuler . Howsoeuer this shift may seeme cunning , yet I am sure no man of iudgement , or reason , wil think it very honest .

But saith Fa: Parsons , all that should haue been in Fa: Weston , was but by way of direction , not by way of commaund , or superioritie . First , if it were onely so , then would I aske you , why he should so earnestly affect to direct others ? had hee not enough to direct himselfe , but he must needes intrude vppon his brethren ? Or must he needes thinke , that all the rest were either so simple men , or imperfect persons , as that none of them could direct themselues in spirituall matters , without the help of a Iesuite ? What arrogancie is this ? If he obiect their congregations in Italy , Spayne , and els where , vnto which Cardinals , and great men resort : I aunswer , that there is no necessitie , to inferre an insufficiencie in those parties , to direct themselues , or others , but rather a voluntary acceptance of such occasions , to exercise themselues in those places which they might else where performe , if it pleased them ? But for a Iesuit to challenge that peculiar prerogatiue vnto himselfe , is not tolerable . And yet that this was more then arrogating a direction of others , yea a formall dominion & gouernment ouer them , is not onely manifest , by what we haue heere before reheased ; but also by the very rules of this affected institution , or Agencie .

For amongst others , one rule was , that matters of greater weight should be censured by common Suffrages , but those matters of lesse moment , by the Agent himselfe . And to iudge which matters were of great moment , and which of small ; that should be in Ma : Agent to determine . What greater priuiledge can a superiour haue , then to determine of matters , what they be , and how they shall be ordered ? If this be not to giue superioritie and gouernment , I must confesse my wit is but shallow . For I would but aske you what he might not doe by authoritie giuen him by this rule within the compasse of that societie , or brother-hood ? or what partialitie might he not vse towards his affected pupils , and rigour towards his not well affectionated by this rule ; sith the power was in him to iudge what matters were of moment , or not of moment , and so to draw within his own managing what delinquents hee would , and smother vp theyr crimes in corners , and bring to publique barre what pettie matter he list , if the partie delinquent were not of his affectionated ? Would any man require more soueraignty then this , to bring all men vnder his check and controle ? Be iudges heerein with indifferencie I beseech you . But saith Fa: Parsons , is it likely that Fa: Weston , a man of those parts , and looking euery day for martyrdome , & one ( as you say ) who had beene Prouinciall for the time in England , should seeke so greedily for so poore a preferment , as to be seruaunt and Agent to a few of his fellow prisoners ? I confesse there was no reason he should seeke it ; but that hee did seeke it , let the reasons alledged shew the truth . And for his hauing beene Prouinciall , it more confirmeth the matter to such , as know the natures of the Iesuits : who hauing once beene Gouernours , loue not to be depriued of their soueraigntie in no sauce . This by experience is best knowne to them that haue liued amongst them . Witnes all those that liued in the time of the expulsions of Fa: Alphonso Agazara , Fa: Creswell , Fa: Hieronimo Fierouante , out of the gouernment of the Romane Colledge , how heauily , and vnwillingly they tooke their depriuations . Of which number one of them making a speech at his departure vnto the scholers , vsed these words : Decedendum est , immó cras decedendum , and burst out so into teares , that he could hardly proceed in his speech . Witnes this Fa : Parsons shufling in Paris , ( when he came out of England from his Prouincialship ) to get himselfe deliuered from subiection , to the Rector of their Colledge there .

Now would I request the indifferent reader , to iudge , whether these practises in Wisbich were ambitious or not ; & whether the vnited Priests had not reason to stand out , & controle such exorbitant and peeuish insultations , which were acted with such a shew of hipocrisie on fa: Westons behalf , as it hath made me often to wonder at his follies & puritane ostentations . A hobby-horse in time of Christmas , went to his hart forsooth , the publike & bitter reprehension whereof , this father will haue to be such zeale of vertue . I surely think he would also haue found fault at a May-pole in Whitsontide ; if this be not a right imitation of puritanizme , let the world iudge . And yet if you knew as much as I doe ; you would scarse excuse it from grosse ostentation and hypocrisie ; especially if you vnderstood how frequent such showes of hobby-horses , and mountebankes &c. are with them in their Colledges in Rome . Witnes this all such as haue liued there , especially in Fa: Hieronimo Fierouante his time . Add to this Fa : Westons eating but one meale a day , so long as there was hope of his Agencie ; but when his hopes were frustrate , he could finde a stomack to eate 3. meales ordinarily in one day , and those sound ones too . As for Fa: Parsons insulting vpon Ma: Bluets speech to Fa: Weston , concerning th' vse of Sacraments , and his diuers comments there-vpon ; It is but the superfluitie of his owne vanity . Ma : Bluets speech was both graue , and iudiciall in any reasonable mans iudgement . For if the sacrament , and good counsell of the Confessarins , would not , or could not reforme a Priest liuing in prison for conscience , & Religion ; how should we thinke that Ma: Westons Agencie was like to effect it ? where-vnto no man could be tyed in these times by force , but of free will , & so might refuse those remedies at his pleasure ; his Agencie hauing neyther power of life nor death , imprisonment , nor chaines , and therefore not to be compared ( as wise Ma: Parsons seemeth he would haue it ) with a common wealth or publique authority , where iustice may be executed in foro contentioso . But you will yet happily call me to reckoning further for my first assertion ; wherein I affirmed , that the Iesuits intended a generall dominion ouer all the priests of England , by their attempt at Wisbich , for the truth of which assertion , although I haue alreadie giuen you sufficient reason , yet wil I further satisfie you heerein by obseruation of that which hath followed since .

You know ( I suppose ) how the Priests were about a Sodalitie amongst themselues , which was chiefly intended ( as by the rules thereof you may gather ) for the prouision of such as came newly , and rawly ouer : for the disposing of them abroad to their better securitie ; for the prouision of prisoners in durance ; for the better reliefe to Cath: abroade in matters spirituall ; for the particuler good of euery priest ; and for the checking of some exorbitant , and vnnaturall courses , taken by the Iesuits against their Prince and Country : to abolish such medlings in those affaires , as impertinent to our function , and vocation , and to strengthen and inable our selues in these matters by a mutuall vnion : this I say , was the end of our sodalitie , which we imparted vnto the Iesuits , that they should see our sinceritie and honesty in those proceedings : but we were too sincere , and plaine , to deale with such craftie crowders ; for they well perceiued , that this course would discouer much of their iuglings in matter of state , & also put an euerlasting blocke , or bulwarke against their intended superioritie . So that although openly they seemed to like of the course , ( because for shame they durst do none other ) yet they thought it high time to worke some cunning meanes to delude our indeuours . Whereupon they secretly addressed Ma: Standish , ( one that had been most forward for the association , ( but a secret Traytor vnto all the rest ) vnto Rome , and there by the working of Fa: Parsons , he was brought before the Pope , as hauing great affaires , concerning the Clergie of our Countrie . Wherein an oration furtiue , vniustly , and vntruly , in the names of all the Priests of our Countrie , he desired a gouernment , and subordination . Which false office being by him performed , Fa: Parsons himselfe busily folowed the matter , with many vntrue suggestions vnto his holines , of great discord betweene the Priests , and Catholicks in England , and we wot not what : for the suppressing and reformation whereof , some subordination & gouernment was forsooth necessary .

Vpon these , and many other such like vntrue suggestions , his holines referred ( as sithence wee haue learned ) the whole disposition of this affaire , vnto Cardinall Caietane theyr Protector . Whereby Fa: Parsons had in effect as much as he desired , or could haue wished . For the Cardinall euer stood at the Iesuits direction in all matters concerning our affaires , as all the world knoweth . Thus was Ma: Blackwell , by the Card : commaundement , and through Fa: Parsons practicall deuises , inuested in his authoritie ; a man wholy prostrated at the feete of Fa: Garnet , and standing meerely at his deuotions , and directions in all matters of moment , as by all his violent courses against vs in their behalfe , the world may see .

But to manifest this point more palpably vnto you , that you may see , wee speake not of passion or emulation against the Iesuits , but directly , as the truth is . In the instructions sent vnto the Archpriest concerning the execution of his office , one and the chiefest prouiso , was that hee should in all matters of weight , be aduised by the Prouinciall of the Iesuits Fa : Garnet . Doe but thinke hereby how matters were like to be managed heere , when all the controuersie was onely betweene vs the seculer Priests , and the Iesuits , & not between Priests and Catholicks , ( as falsly Fa: Parsons suggested ) and that our Archpriest must be taught by the Iesuits Prouinciall what he shall doe in any matter of moment . Iudge indifferently I beseech you , whether this was not a trick to keep the managing of all matters in their owne handes ; and hold the Priests in slauerie and subiection vnto them . Which because they saw by experience they could not obtaine imediatly to themselues , they deuised to procure it more cunningly by a third person , hauing a Secular priest in a corner wholie depending vppon them . So that our superiour beeing to be directed by their superiour , all the soueraigntie & gouernment , should indeed haue rested in the Iesuits .

Adde vnto this fa: Garnets owne words , deliuered before Ma: Mush , & Ma: Dudley , when they came vnto him about the appeasing of the broyles in Wisbich , vnto whom shewing himselfe discontented , that they had not concurred to the confirming of fa: Westons Agencie , he vsed these or the like words to this effect ; That hee saw no reason why the priests in England , should not as well be gouerned by the Iesuits here , as they were , and had beene in the Colledges beyond the Seas .

Now let any man that is not ouermuch blinded with affection towards the Iesuits , ( of which sort I know there be many , who will belieue nothing that maketh against any of them ) indifferently iudge , whether all their indeuours and intentions from the beginning , were not to attaine vnto a monarchiall gouernment ouer the Clergie of England . And yet this inference seemed strange vnto good Fa: Parsons . Beleeue me , I thinke he so much presumes vpon his wit , and policies together , that he thinketh he may walke in a Net , and not be seene . But softly good Fa : other men haue eyes aswell as your selfe , and can discerne such grosse colours , especiallie when the sunne shineth so cleerely . But yet before I proceed any further , I cannot let passe an admirable shew of a detracting spirit in Fa: Parsons , who in the close of his quipping , & carping against the foresaid discourse of the stirrs raised at Wisbich , is not ashamed to note certaine particuler accusations , as whoredome , drunkennesse , dycing , pewter stolne , which Mary the maide found in ones Chamber , &c. spoken of in the foresaid Relation . Which he so cunningly shuffleth vp , and leaueth hanging so suspiciously , as if they were things euident without controle , condemning the parties accused . Whereas in the aforesaid discourse , and place , where they are deliuered , as accusations by his faction , they are so apparantly , and inuincibly confuted , as that I admire much at the mans brasen forehead , that he durst so palpably lay open his follies , if not his malice .

Touching the pewter stolne , that matter was publiquelie conuinced for a notorious calumnie before Ma: Mush , and Ma: Dudley , with great shame and checke to his Pupill Ma: Pond , who vrged the matter against Ma. Potter , and others . So that S. Paules sentence brought by himselfe , may iustlie be retorted against him , set . Insipientia eius manifesta erit omnibus . I pray God in place of insipientia , I may not iustly say malitia .

By this time we are come vnto the Memoriall giuen vp in Rome against the Iesuits , The Memoriall . by one Fisher , which is printed in the end of the foresaid Discourse of Wisbich : and at which this honest Father seemeth much agreeued , taxing the publishers of it with excommunication , and the Memoriall it selfe as most false and calumnious by Fishers owne deposition , &c. As concerning this Memoriall , all men know that it was generally published heere in England by the Iesuits themselues , at what time they sought for suffrages abroad in theyr owne behalfe against it . Now therefore , if any excommunication or censure depend thereuppon , not the Printers , but the Iesuits , father Garnet , and others , the first publishers thereof , are within that compasse . For I hope Fa: Parsons is not so simple a Canonist , or Casuist , but that he knoweth , that when any report is famous and already publick to the world , he that shall afterward speake or write thereof , incurreth not the offence of a Detractor , or spreader of calumnies , nor by consequence any censure of the Church . For if that were so , then could no Historiographer relate the euill actions of any Ecclesiasticall person , though neuer so pertinent and necessarie to his historie . Which is contrary to the practise of all Writers , both in prophane and Ecclesiasticall stories : yea the old Fathers themselues , as S. Ierome , Cassian , S. Bernard , and others . Secondly , the printing of those thinges , was but the bare setting downe onely of such accusations , as were spred abroad by themselues , without either glosse or comment vppon them , but left indifferent , as themselues published them , vnknown to vs certainly , whether any such matter was deliuered vp against them , but by their owne reports .

Thirdly , that they are printed , as giuen vp by some English residing in Flaunders , is but their owne report heere : for I will testifie vpon my oath , & so will diuers others also , that they layde the burden thereof vpon certaine there resident , as Ma. D. Gifford , Ma. Char. Paget , and others . Fourthly , that it was also reported here by some of themselues and their fauorits ( of which report I am also an eare-witnes ) that Fisher should confesse , that himselfe not onely penned the foresaid Memoriall , but also collected diuers of the accusations . Which report they gaue out , when they were pressed with the iniurie done to D. Gifford , to lay the matter from him . Somtimes also they would report , that the instructions were giuen by some in England . So various and vnconstant they were in their reports at that time , as vnsetled ( it seemed ) in their opinions thereof .

Now whereas Fa: Parsons saith , that by Fishers examination , and deposition , as also by Letters of the Assistants , and diuers other , the matters were prooued meere slaunders and vntruths . To the first I aunswer , that Fisher being suiiuris , at libertie , ( according to this Fa : owne report ) exhibited this Memoriall into the Court against them as true accusations , but his denials thereof were at such times as he was imprisoned , where happily for feare of torture , he might be drawne to say or denie any thing , to procure thereby his libertie and safety . Add to this Fa : Parsons own words , spoken in the hearing of diuers scholers in Rome , concerning the said Fishers examination , viz. that he thought in his conscience the fellow lied in many things . If this be true , and that Fa: Parsons may not be accounted a lyar heerein , then iudge you whether the fellow was not drawne to say any thing through perswasions & feare together , sith that in this good fa: opinion , yea and conscience , many of his depositions were vntrue . Besides consider the Fa : sinceritie , in that hee is content heere to bring his deposition and examination , be it what it shal be , to be a bulwarke , and conuincing testimonie in the behalfe of himselfe , and his fellowes innocencie . But this is but an ordinary trick with him , and his complices : that euery man , be he neuer so honest , if he once speake against a Iesuit , must be esteemed a bad man , and a suspected companion ; mary if hee run along with them in their courses , let him be neuer so lewd a varlet , he shal be reputed for most honest . Witnes this , Tomson , Coulson , Tunsteed , and many others of that rable which I could name .

Moreouer , to confirme a very probable opinion of some iugling with this poore man , Fisher in his examinations : Fa: Parsons ( as himselfe affirmeth ) put him into very good apparell , being but in ragges before , and gaue him money in his purse , and dismissed him his troubles with great shew of kindnes , as they can witnes , who were then in Rome . Iudge you but what suspitions this kinde and ouer-kind dealing of Fa: Parsons , with this lewd companion ( as he often tearmeth him ) may giue to the world of bad dealing in his examinations , and depositions . Seldome I think shall you finde a man that will performe such extraordinary effects of loue and kindnes towards one , that came about such an hatefull office , as to informe in publique and open Court against him : neither can I yet be induced to think Fa: Parsons charity so superaboundant towards his enemies , by any former example in his proceedings . But letting Fishers action passe , and the rather because he is about , as I heare , to speake for himselfe : I will come a little nearer vnto him , and canuase his other testimonies of the assistants and other letters . First , what letters the assistants writ concerning that memoriall , I know not , onely I had the view of one writ by Ma: Doctor Bauand , in their behalfe , which was sent abroad into the Country together with the memoriall . Which letter did not onely free the Iesuits , from matters imputed vnto them in the said memoriall , but also concerning those stirres in Wisbich , and whatsoeuer in England layed vnto their charge . Vnto which generall , and free example , many were vrged to subscribe ; and diuers did it diuersly : some generally freeing them of all matters , others excusing themselues ; onely as vnguilty of the concurring to the fore-said accusations . But what verity or iustice was in the fore-said letters excusatorie , giue me leaue a little to search . First , you shall vnderstand , that no one man liuing in England , could in conscience write such a generall excusing letter , neither could any generally without exceptions subscribe thereto ( as but few generally did or had done , when the said letters came to my hands . For the most part of the subscribers vsed the subscription of the 2. classe ( as I remember ) viz: Dicti memorialis conscius non fui , nec habeo que accusem : Although some were drawne by fauours , feares , or perswasions , to subscribe generally vnto the letter ; which thing , that neither the writer Ma : Doctor Bauand , nor subscribers in conscience could doe , I will manifestly shew you . I suppose you will easily vnderstand this one generality ; that no man may iustly in conscience hinder publique iustice , whereby an innocent party may be oppressed and vniustly vexed . This then being a iust and most true ground , no such generall testimonie could be giuen in the behalfe of the Iesuits , to free them from all such accusations . For what one man in England , could tell whether any Iesuite in England had wronged any particuler person , Priest , or Catholique , or were faulty in any the fore-said obiections or no ? If then no one man could be certaine of this ; how could any in conscience giue so generall a testimonie in their behalfes , sith therby he exposeth himselfe at the least to probability of wronging some innocent or other , that might haue iust accusations against the Iesuits , or some of them , in that by the credite of such a generall patronizing example , fortified with testimonies , and subscriptions of priests , the hearing of a iust cause might be deferred , delayed , or denied ? And yet who knoweth not that an affirmatiue testimonie sufficientlie proued , de iure is auaileable to ouerthrow , & controle 20. negatiues . As for example : if I will say that such a man hath defamed me , and bring 2. or 3. sufficient witnesses , & his owne words , wrytings , or actions , shall they not conuince against an hundred , that shall denie the same in all law and iustice in the world ? sith that a wrong may be done in the sight , or hearing of 2. or 3. of the which an hundred may otherwise be ignorant , and yet deeme the contrarie , eyther through good opinion , and conceite of the parties offending ( as happened in this case ) or deluded by some other circumstance , seemed probable to them . Seeing then that this might happen in this affaire ( as I will shew it hath ) neither could Ma: Doctor Bauand write such a generall letter , to free them from all such imputations ; nor any other subscribe generally thereto . For no man may giue witnes in any thing more then he hath of knowledge , and is able to depose . But no one man in England was able to depose , that no such crimes imputed , were in any Iesuit liuing in England ; because he could not be priuie to all , and euery action of theirs , and euery one of them : therefore no man in England could so generally and peremptorily free them from all such matters obiected against them .

Consider now I beseech you , how rash Ma. Doctor Bauand was in writing this generall testimonie : as also the other Assistants ( of whom Fa: Parsons heere speaketh , if they did the like , as this Doctor did ) and how vnaduised those Priests were , who generally subscribed without any limitation at all . And this Position of ours , shall more euidently appeare in the examination of the particuler accusations , layd vnto theyr charge ; where we shall shew you most euidently , that many things were , & are most true , whatsoeuer the parties were , that exhibited , & framed the Memoriall against them . And this I wil performe , not because I am ouer-willing to enter into other mens actions , or to take the burden of others vpon my back : but leauing euery man to aunswer for his owne actions , I will onely set downe some proofes of certaine particulers , which my selfe know , & wil auouch before any Iudge in the world , that all men may see how this mans hastie posting ouer these matters , maketh more shew of confidence , then there is cause a parte rei , and that theyr actions haue beene , and are such , as cannot be iustified , either in law , or conscience .

But first concerning the subscriptions vnto Doctor Bauands letter : I remember there were three testimonies of 3. Priests woorthy to be heard , which gaue no such glosing prayse vnto the Iesuits actions , as freeing them from all such imputations , but manifestly insinuating the contrarie . Marie for ought I could heare , theyr testimonies were neuer presented in Rome , or if they were , I see no reason , why they should not haue taken so much effect , as eyther to be belieued , or farther examined ; neither of which followed as I trow . The reason perhaps was , because two of the aforesaid Priests dealt plainly and charitably with them in particuler letters , after their subscriptions making Fa: Garnet acquainted with such things , as were amisse both in them , and theyr followers , which discontented diuers .

Now to the particulers of the Memoriall . The first paragraph cited by fa: Parsons , is this . They holde no doctrine to be Catholicke and sound , that commeth not from themselues , no dispensation auaileable , that is not graunted by them : and ( which ) is worse , they haue beaten into the heads of most , that the masse is not rightly celebrated by any , but a Iesuit . Because fa: Parsons sayth no more vnto this point , but only asketh a question : whether we belieue this to be true . I will note some things not far vnlike vnto these , wherby you may gesse the probabilitie of them . At what time Maister Iohn Gerard liued in the East parts of England , such fame , and singuler respect was had of him , because he was a Iesuit , ( for no other parts in this kinde could make him famous , whose talents are known to be far inferiour to the most of his time , as Ma. Oldcorne a Iesuit likewise reported vnto a Priest ) as that when any case of difficultie came in question to be resolued in those parts , it was scant currant , vntill Ma. Gerards sentence had passed in the matter . And sometimes it happened , that when Ma. Blunt ( now a Iesuit , but then a secular Priest onely ) had resolued a case ; there wanted not such , as would make stand thereat , vntill Ma. Gerards opinion was demaunded therein . Vpon what ground these fantasticall conceits should arise , I know not , vnlesse it were some suggested opinions , that nothing was currant , which had not vigor from a Iesuits determination . For otherwise I thinke there be many , who know that there is so great difference betwixt Ma. Blunt , and Ma. Gerard , in matters of learning , as Ma. Blunt might well be a Reader in Diuinitie , where Ma. Gerard were fit to be a scholer . And as for dispensations graunted by any Priest in any case whatsoeuer , it hath beene a common practise amongst the Iesuits , and theyr followers , to call such things in question , whether the priests ( for example ) had any such authoritie : yea , sometimes giuing suspitious doubts abroad , whether they haue any faculties at all , or not .

This hath happened so often , & onely towards such , whom they haue had some auersion from ; that I suppose few to be ignorant thereof . Witnesse theyr dealing with Ma. Clarke at his first comming ouer , & some others since the last stirrs in Rome . Witnesse also to this poynt , theyr drawing of diuers matters within the compasse of particuler faculties , and extraordinary dispensations , which are proper to all pastors in generall : As for example , to giue leaue to eate white meats in Lent , or at other times , to dispence with such as haue reasonable cause for fasting . Which cases they had drawn vnto themselues , making Priests to seeke for theyr faculties yeerely at theyr hands , when as in very deede , this faculty belongeth vnto the Priests , ex ordinaria potestate , quatenus sunt pastores , and not to the Iesuits , but extraordinarily onely , by way of indulgence , as coadiutors vnto vs , as happeneth in all other exemptions or faculties which they possesse .

As touching the third part of the first Paragraffe : that it is beaten into the heads of diuers , that Masse is not rightly sayd , but of a Iesuit : sure I am , and I thinke all the world knoweth it to be true , that they haue such tricks , and pollicies to put some such extraordinarie conceits into Catholicks heads , that I see not , but in some part this assertion may be verified . For they haue theyr men , and followers or precursors in places where they come , who must suggest it for a strange and extraordinarie matter to be present at theyr Masses ; and that euery Cath: that shall come vnto any of them to confesse , & communicate , shall haue ( I know not what ) plenatie indulgences for the first time . Let but the indifferent Reader iudge , whether this kinde of practise be not a prety Iesuiticall tricke , to suggest such strange conceits of them , and theyr administrations of Sacraments , or saying of Masses aboue others . And whether they haue any such extraordinary indulgences , or no graunted vnto them , I know not . But this I am sure , that if there be any such , it sauoureth somewhat of too much pollicie , as thereby to draw a greater opinion of men towards them then to others . Which might giue sufficient occasion to suspect the verity of any such peculier graunt vnto them from the Sea Apostolicke . Yet this must be more then petie-treason , to call any faculty of theyrs into question , though great reason may moue me thereto , which in them to do by others , must be accounted but a religious care , and prouidence to auoyd imposture .

I might heere also alledge the seditious Treatise of Wiseman , called The three farwells , tending to no other end , but to draw mens conceits wholy to this one point , that nothing is sufficiently done , which proceedeth not from a Iesuit , or such an one as is gouerned in all things by them . But because this is more particulerly intreated of in the late booke of Quodlibets , writ by Ma. Watson , I refer the Reader thether . Now will I leaue you to iudge , whether wee haue not some cause to belieue the accusations of Fisher , ( if the Memoriall was of his deuise ) in part to be true , and not so voyd of ground , or reason as Ma. Parsons would haue you beleeue . But to proceed yet farther with this confident Fa : in his own cause . Perhaps hee thinketh euery bare assertion that comes from his Mastership should be had , as an Oracle with all men , though otherwise neuer so absurd and vntrue . Howbeit , let vs track him in his folly , and see what hee can say to the Accusations following .

No Iesuit goeth to visite anie in England , The fourth paragraph of the Memoriall . or trauaileth from one place to another , but he is richly apparelled , and attended on with a great traine of seruants , as if hee were a Baron or an Earle . This paragraph also our good Fa: shufleth off with an interrogation , sct : whether in our conscience this be true ? Would you not think by this kinde of confident ostentation in Ma: Parsons ; that this imputation were more then sottish , yea malitious without all ground , or showe of ground in the world ? Yet if by some examples I doe not manifestly shew this , to be grounded vpon some true , and reall experience ; beleeue me not in the rest . First I will but referre you vnto all the Priests & Cath: that liued in England in Fa: Hawoods time of liberty , and knew him , and his manners , and fashions well : and if they doe not assure you that his port , and carriage was more Baronlike , then priestlike , all the world will condemne them for most partiall , and impudent deniers of the truth . Was he not wont to ride vp , and downe the Country in his Coach ? had he not both seruants , and priests attendants that did hang on his sleeue in great numbers ? did he not indict Counsels , make , and abrogate lawes ? was not his pompe such , as the places where he came seemed petie-Courts by his presence , his traine , and followers ? See whether heere be not one notable example of excesse , at which Fa: Parsons himselfe was wont to carpe , there being emulation betweene them about his superiority , and the others exemption . Fa: Parsons claimed the Prouincialship , & Fa : Haywood an exemption , beeing sent immediatly from his holines . Againe , for present I referre you vnto Fa: Garnets pompe , and expences , of which I haue heard some honest priests ( who haue beene much with him ) report that he cannot spend lesse then 500. pound by the yeere . But wee will not much stand vpon his pompe or expences , because being prouinciall of his order , he will claime a prelacie , and therefore more honour , and more pompe , although our times , and case ( well considered , ) will scant tolerate such excesse . But let vs come , I pray you , vnto some priuate men of their order , and his subiects . The mighty , and extraordinarie excesse of Ma: Iohn Gerard hath beene such , and so notorious , that I suppose few priests ( besides other Cath: ) to be ignorant thereof . His apparrell at one time hath beene valued at a higher rate then I will for shame speake of , which he hath had in store , as it hath been reported by such , as were well acquainted there-with ; One Gentlewoman gaue him a vest : of needle-worke valued at an 100. marks at one time . his church stuffe was worth no lesse then 200. marks , and the last time he was taken , losing but such stuffe , as was onely portable , I referre me to the officers , that seazed thereon for the value thereof ; his horses were many , and of no small price . My selfe haue knowne him to haue two Geldings in a Gentlemans stable at 30. pound a Gelding , besides others else-where , and horses of good vse .

S. Ambrose in times of necessity would breake Chalices , and other precious vessels of the Church , to relieue the wants of poore Christians , but these men in the great afflictions , miseries , & wants of afflicted poore Cath: may possesse not onely superaboundance of Church stuffe , but also great excesse of apparell , horses , iewels ; et quid non ? Whilest others starue in prison , and abroad without scruple of conscience , and this quia Dominus opus habet . You will imagine that the expences of this man could not be very small ; that was thus richly furnished : and I beleeue as much , and for experience thereof , I will set downe his expences , during his imprisonment in the Clincke , well knowne to diuers that liued there with him , by which you may gesse at the rest .

During his being there in durance ( liuing as a close prisoner in shew , though with more fauour , then any other ) howsoeuer the matter hapned ( which we will not wrest vnto the worst sence , as Ma: Parsons dealeth with vs ) he kept a priuate Table , continually with great store of dainties , & much resort daily . Besides , he payed his ordinary commons at the common table , and chamber rent : let them which haue liued in the Clinck , but iudge what this would come vnto in the yeare . But he will say that the company resorting vnto him , prouided the meates and wines : Be it so , that we may beleeue him in this ( which is more credit , then we owe him , ) yet the excesse was no one iot the lesse , & continuall . Which I think any man of iudgement will imagine , that he might haue ( in some good portion at the least ) imployed better , and with more merit , and edification . But that you may not think this to haue beene the vttermost of his excesse , and so excuse him as aboue ; you shall vnderstand that he ordinarily kept his Geldings in towne , and his man , which I suppose to be some round charge vnto him . He also so wrought the matter , that he rode into the Country at his pleasure , and returned : which I thinke you will suppose cost his purse well in bribes to such , as were his Keepers , if to no other . He also maintained two houses in the towne , with seruants in them , and not this without great expences , I weene . Now if you can spell , put all this together , and iudge what it might cost this Gentleman by the yeare , whilst he liued in Durance , and by that gesse at his expences abroad , of the which there want not diuers , who can sufficiently informe you . Sure I am , that such as liued with him in the Clincke , were of opinion , that he could not maintaine all this , I haue spoken of , vnder 400. or 500. pounds by the yeare : See the pompe of a young Baronet at the least .

I may not omit Ma : Oldcorne , though but a petty Iesuit in this kinde ; I know that his apparrell is seldome lesse worth , then 30. or 40 pound . Hee is alwaies extraordinarily well prouided for horses , and those of the best . An honest Gentleman , and one whom I think you will iudge to be no lyer , ( besides that he is not euill affected towards the Iesuits , ) told me that he had 8. good Geldings at one time . I could alleadge you diuers other examples in particuler of their excesse ; but I esteeme it very needlesse , to spend time in a matter so euident to the world . But at all aduentures , I wish that euery 5. of our ordinary brethren , had but as much to maintaine them yeerely , as an ordinary Iesuit commonly spendeth by the yeere . As for their traine , few of them are vnwayted vpon , wheresoeuer they goe ; which ordinarily is but to places of account , where their entertainment may be good , and with the best . This is a thing so vsuall , that all the Cath: in England of any account , as I suppose , do both see , & know it well . And such as haue heeretofore been secular priests , and were then wont to goe on foot sometimes , & visit poore people willingly , to relieue and comfort them : becomming afterwards Iesuits , haue beene so a cockhorse , that it must be thought no small fauour to be worthy of their presence , and that not without their attendants , & other ceremonies ; Witnes this Ma: Bancks , Ma: Blunt , and others now Iesuits .

They neuer send one Scholler out of England , to the Colledge of Doway , The 5. paragraph . to st●●●y there , &c. Nay , they haue laboured by all meanes vtterly to dissolue it . After his accustomed manner , he asketh vs , whether this be true , and referreth vs to the President , and bookes of the Colledge . But by his leaue , whatsoeuer he may coyne out of the Colledge bookes , and father vpon the President ; hee must giue vs leaue by the effects to iudge the cause , and intention . Wee know that they neuer haue beene willing to send any vnto Doway , that had anie maintenance of his owne to liue on , but haue alwayes perswaded them to Saint Odemars . And this I can witnes to be so . Besides , Doctor Barret did much complaine , that such as had where-with to maintaine themselues , neuer came thether , and others who had nothing , were continually sent to him . Moreouer , the opinion of all men of iudgement is , and hath beene from the beginning ; that the first institution of Saint Odemars , would be the ruine , & ouerthrow of Doway . And their opinion was grounded vpon good , and forcible reasons : for knowing by experience ( as we doe know ) that in euery thing the Iesuits draw all they can vnto themselues ; we could not but assure our selues , that they would hold the like manner of proceeding in this , as the sequell hath made manifest . For since the erecting of this Seminarie , what Gentlemans sonne hath been sent ouer by any Iesuit in England , but to that house ? So that , vnder the pretence of a Colledge with pension , they haue drawne thither all the prime youths of our Country , and such as liue of themselues . Whereby now it is come to that passe , that ( notwithstanding all their pensions from the King , or others ) there be few English youths there , whose parents doe not largely pay for their educations ; neither can any poore youth be admitted thether ( for all the pensions ) but he must eyther haue anuall stipend of 20. marks plus minis by the yeere , or 40. 50. or 60. pound portion in grosse summe . And such will they foyst into Spaine , or Rome , within one yeere , or thereabouts , to giue place to others . This is so common , and so well known , to all our brethren , and others also , that I need not to inculcate the same ouermuch . And I would set down a Catalogue of many names , were it not to discouer them , to the hurt of themselues , and their friends .

Now iudge you , whether the drawing of able youths , and such , as haue to maintaine themselues ( & were wont in times past to be an ease vnto the Seminarie at Rhemes ) from the Colledge of Doway , vnto this new Seminary , be not a means to impouerish and vtterly begger that Colledge . And euen so hath it hapned , as is manifest , and the last President , Docter Barret , was wont to lament it . Add vnto this the stopping of the Colledge pensions in Docter Barrets time . Consider also the bringing in of a Iesuit Confessarins ouer all the house : which was the first practise of theyr entrance into the gouernment of the Romane Colledge . Behold their putting downe of the Lectures euer vsually read with great credite , and applause in that Colledge : Marke but the turning out of the house of all the Docters , Readers , and Seniors , the chiefe pillers , and countenaunce of that house . What can any man think this tendeth vnto els , but to intrude themselues into the gouernment thereof , & vtterly to dissolue it , as they haue already not onely beggerd it , but disgraced , & discountenaunced it ? Besides , as now it is , who knoweth not that it wholy standeth at theyr deuotion , & that the President dare not creake , but as they would haue him to pipe , vnlesse hee will not onely lose his place , but also depart with reproch , infamie , and disgrace ? Into which extremities Doctor Barret was brought by them ( as all the world knoweth ) and had so departed vnto his Canonrie at Rhemes , if he had liued : howsoeuer this good fellow in his Apologie , laboureth to make him their friend , & fauorite at his death . The contrarie wherof , those that were at his last end , best know , when hee cried they had burst his backe , and that he could no longer beare , and this not long before he died .

The seuenth paragraph is , The 7. that women also are induced by them to become Nunnes , and to leaue such goods as they haue vnto them . How much need soeuer Nunnes haue of their own dowries , there be some that both haue , and will taxe them with this kinde of fishing . For the which I refer you to what is writ of late in the discoueries of such their proceedings . But thus much I can say , that there haue been Gentlewomen sent ouer by them , who haue returned back , as wise as they went , with no small waste of their portions . I must conceale theyr names of necessitie , to auoyd their daungers .

All Vniuersity men , & such as haue taken any degree in schooles , the Iesuits hate , despise , & contemne . Howsoeuer Ma. Parsons asketh you , whether this be true , or verifiable , we can assure you , that they so little esteeme of any , who haue taken degrees in schooles , that often-times in open words , they will derogate both from the men , and their degree . Witnes their dealing with D. Bagshaw , tearming him Docter erraticus , et per saltum : Witnes their repyning at D. Norris , and D. Hills taking degree , for preuenting the like whereof heereafter in others , Fa: Parsons ( as he said ) procured a Breve against taking of that degree : Witnes their contempt of the reu : Doct: of Paris , concerning their censure & iudgement in our matter of schisme , for which they derogated most disgracefullie from them , as all men know : Witnesse their contemptuous dealing with the Vniuersitie of Louaine : Witnes their arrogancie in all Vniuersities where they come , and their insulting against all auncient customs and priuiledges , for the which neuer Vniuersitie did , or could affect them , as they do other orders of Religion .

To conclude , Catholicks stand in more feare of Iesuits , then of the hereticks , &c. and that indirectly they cause Priests to be apprehended . This he remitteth vnto all good Catholicks iudgement . Which although I meane not to draw vpon my selfe , as an accuser : yet must you giue me leaue to shew you , vppon what grounds or reasons such thinges might in part be obiected against them . It is not vnknowne vnto our world heere , how vncharitably the Iesuits haue dealt , and doe continually deale with all sorts of persons , as well priests , as lay ; noble , as meane ; if in any sort they stande in their waies , or seem to dislike any course of theirs . For manifestation wherof I will set you downe some particuler examples , by which you may gesse , whether sufficient cause be not daily giuen by them , to make all sorts of Catholicks stand in feare of them . I neede not here to stand much vpon their practises in countries beyond the seas ; how , and in what sort they haue dealt with all our Countrimen abroad , aswell Priests , as lay , seculer as religious ; the fame thereof beeing so loude , that almost the whole world doth ring therof : Witnes their dealing with Docter Barret , in most notorious and infamous sort : Witnes their dealings with the worthy Bishop of Casana , Doctor Lewes : witnes their proceedings with Ma. Doctor Gifford , of which we shall haue cause heereafter to speake more at large : witnes their continuall infamies cast vpon Ma. Charles Paget , Ma. Robert Markham , Ma. Tho: Throgmorton , Ma. Nicholas Fitzherbert , Ma. Fran : Roper , Ma. Charles Browne , Ma. Tresham , Ma. Godfrey Foulgeam , whose vntimely death was occasioned by Fa: Holt , as many men affirme . But to conclude , because a whole volume would be little enough to comprehend the Catalogue of such Gentlemen , & priests , as haue tasted of this kinde of whip from the Iesuits , and theyr followers , beeing sometimes reputed for espialls , somtimes termed seditious , other-some taxed with ambition , others noted as factious , and some worse . So that belieue me , I know no one eminent man or person of sort , and qualitie liuing beyond the seas , whom they haue not wronged in some degree , or other , by way of calumniation , especially if they haue but so much as made any shew of dislike in their proceedings . Let vs see some examples within our Country : amongst the multitude whereof onely some few I will name , well known to many : that thereby you may haue a further tast of theyr proceedings in this sort . And first for such as haue lately died Martyrs ( as I thinke : ) notorious were the Iesuits calumniations against the Franciscan Frier Ma. Iones , alias Buckley , I my selfe was particulerly acquainted therewith , and his letters writ to Fa: Garnet after his condemnation , may be a sufficient testimonie thereof .

Ma. Harrington was so oppressed with such calumnies in like sort , that hauing honest meanes for his libertie offered him , he reiected it ; saying , that then he should be accounted for no honest man , and that he must be hanged to proue him selfe honest , and free from such calumniations . Ma. Fixar was in such sort slaundered by them , that hee was forced to leaue England , and they afterwards forced him with theyr bad vsage in Spaine , to loose his life , with griefe and sorrow . Ma. Pibush , during his remaine in Gloucester prison , was calumniated by them as vnconstant in his fayth , and suspitious of reuolt : my selfe am witnes thereto . It is not vnknowne , that Ma. Plasden was so wronged by Ma. Iohn Gerards dealing , and others of them in this kind , that he could not be receiued amongst his old acquaintance in London . By which meanes he fell into the officers hands , and was executed . Ma. George Beesley , was notoriously abused by them .

The day would faile me to recite all I could , for proofe of this one point . As for men yet liuing , how many be there , whom they haue of late touched with defamations , both in Wisbich , and other prisons , as well as abroade ? Witnesse this Ma. Wingfield , called into suspition for Ma. Southwell his apprehension : Witnes this all the Priests whom they haue charged with schisme , disobedience , and mortall sinne : Witnes this all the Priests that came from Rome during the time of the stirrs there , defamed , and held as spies by them . Verilie , I thinke the third priest now in England hath not escaped theyr spightfull tongues .

And as touching lay men , what man is there , that hath in any matter taken course against any of theyr proceedings , and hath not felt theyr bitter sharpe calumniating tongues : besides others of woorth , not huing any dealings with them ? Witnes this their invectiues against my old Lo: Mountacute , when hee liued : witnes theyr disgracefull speeches against my Lo. Dacres of the North , my Lo. Paget in Flaunders , Sir Thomas Tresham , Ma. Talbot , Ma. Sheldon , and others , whom they haue not spared to detract in very vnciuill sort . Witnes this Ma. Ashfielde now in the Tower , whom openly they made a spy . Witnes this Ma. Antho : Copley defamed in the same manner . It were an infinite labour to set downe all particuler wrongs done by them in this kind . Assuredly to me it seemeth a common practise amongst them , to slaunder , defame , & detract whomsoeuer they affect not , or that opposeth their proceedings ; which is no lesse then a Machiuillian practise . And that I haue no small reason to presse them heere-with , one of theyr owne speeches vnto a Priest , complayning of the wrongs , doone to Ma. Edward Bennet in this kinde , import no lesse , which were these , or to this effect , that it was necessary or conuenient he should be disgraced , because he was against theyr societie . Iudge of the honestie of this necessitie or conueniencie , and then thinke you , whether Catholicks , & priests both , may not iustly stand in feare of them , holding such diuelish principles whereby they may at pleasure defame ; whom they please ; and ( theyr sway and power being so great at it is ) may also driue the same into the heads of many , and infinite their followers , who are ready to belieue , whatsoeuer they affirme , yea to affirme whatsoeuer they suspect . And this I thinke in my conscience maketh many of both sorts to feare to encounter with them . I know it to be true in some , who will spare to open no mans faults , ( if he haue any they know of ) & inuent or exaggerate , what they can deuise against such as oppose them , as you may see by these last bookes of Fa: Parsons . Yet haue not we dealt so with them , as to enter into theyr particuler liues , and discouer their imperfections ( as you may not thinke , they be all Saints , vnlesse you affect to be deceiued ) but onely presse them with theyr vniust proceedings , ( which beeing not priuate to their owne particuler hurt onely , as secret infirmities are , but tend to the hurt and ruine of many , yea the generall damage of both our Country and Clergie ) may no way be tolerated , because euery man is more bound to prouide for a generall , then a particuler good , and more bound to hinder a generall , then a particuler mischiefe .

But to come at length to the second part of the conclusion , which is , that they indirectly cause priests to be apprehended , let the example of Ma. Plasden before cited , be duly considered , and their dealing with Ma. Edward Bennet , whom they so defamed with the note of espiall , and the like , that he was thrust out of his residence , and the calumniation so generally spred in the Country about him , that had not a good old Gentlewoman been , he could not haue told whether to haue gone ; being not very well acquainted in the Country . Besides , at that time he was so ill of an hurt receaued in his legge , that if he had one day rode , he had not beene able to haue stirred of a fortnight , or three weekes after at the least ( as they can testifie , who had the curing thereof . ) Iudge you then what might haue beene likely to haue followed , ( if he had been reiected of that old Gentlewoman ) through those reports , being but slenderly stored with mony at that time , nor very wel prouided for his horse . Furthermore , I think there is no man so simple , but he must needs imagine that this kind of course of defaming priests for spies , &c. can doe no lesse then hazard their liberties , and lyues both ; when as thereby they shall be reiected of Cath: and driuen to shift for themselues at six , and seauen , in these dangerous times . And thus wee will end the pursuite of Fishers Memoriall , and leaue the indifferent Reader to iudge , whether there were not somewhat á parte rei , to occasionate such accusations against them . And heere I cannot choose but a little note good Fa: Parsons folly , ( which he so much vrgeth against vs ) in that he would call in question so sleightly ( besides simply ) those accusations of Fisher onely set forth simply , and barely by vs , as themselues had divulged them , without further exaggerations ; leauing the truth thereof vnsifted ; thereby to cause vs to open those dealings , and practises in him , and his , which they will neuer be able to cleare , whilest they liue , and there-withall to giue that light vnto all men , not onely to looke into the grounds of these accusations , but also to looke further into other their dealings heereafter .

Now to the 2. and 3. Catalogue of chiefe points of accusations , where-with many English men haue iustly charged the Iesuits . These accusations ( Ma: Parsons saith ) were written by some of our friends , and sent to Rome vnderhand , to increase the flame of sedition there , when it was on fire , and that wee haue divulged them without scruple of conscience ( being notoriouslie false ) or respect to our friends credite , who were authors thereof . As touching the falshood or verity thereof , ( whosoeuer was the author ) wee will examine by leysure . But for our divulging them , they were first published ( as wee haue said ) by themselues , & put in print by vs , but as they came from their hands . And therefore for quotations , let good Ma : Parsons impute the blame thereof vnto his owne subiects , that sent copies abroad , without quotations of either the parties , or their letters , and not impute iugling or cunning shifting vnto them , that printed but what they receau●d from his pupills . For that kinde of iugling is not so common with any , as with his maistership , and his Schollers . Neither would it haue made against vs , or the verity of the accusations , to haue named Ma: Doctor Gifford , or Ma: Charles Paget , for authors thereof , as hee cunningly deciphereth in letters , with a seeming vnwillingnes to reueale them , though his characters make them no more knowne , then the nose vpon a mans face . For if it may goe current , that they were the authors thereof : I suppose that all men of wit , and iudgement , that euer haue eyther known , or heard of those two parties , would begin ( at the least ) to suspect something , when they should see such matters deliuered by men of their sort , and calling . For whatsoeuer this Fa: pretendeth , the credites of these men will extend as farre as his , in any place in the world , where all parts are knowne ; and therefore there was no reason at all to haue concealed their testimonies , if it had beene knowne that they were authors of these accusations .

But to speake a little of the imputation layde vppon these two worthy men , concerning these Memorialls . I would faine know of this honest Father , if Ma. Doctor Gifford were accessarie hereto , how chaunced it then , that master Blackwell , our Archpriest , publiquely before witnes cleered him , affirming that he was not Authour thereof ? Againe , how happened it , that a commission being procured for his examination , nothing could be proued , Fa: Baldwine comming in against him in the behalfe of Ma. Parsons , and all the Iesuits ? Furthermore , how came it to passe , that you Ma : Parsons wrote to Fa: Baldwyne to make an end with the Doctor , and in any case to procure peace with him ? Wherupon he with great and earnest intreatie , vrged the Nuncio to send for the Doctor againe when hee was gone , and perswade a mutuall peace . Which the Nuncio performing , your Factor Fa: Baldwyne vpon his knees asked forgiuenes of the Doctor , both in your name ( good Fa: ) and in the name of the whole Societie ; and the Doctor afterwards in some sort , performed the like to him of humilitie , not as hauing offended , but if in any thing he had wronged any of you . Although it pleased you afterwards , against the Nuncio his commaundement of silence , to publish the act out of the pulpit in Rome , as though the Doct. had asked you forgiuenes , and not you him : & writ so both into Spaine , England , and into other places , whilst the good Doct. kept silence vpon conscience , which in such cases was yet neuer found in you . These are the ordinarie iugling tricks which are too too familiar with you , good Fa. Now ( my good Sir ) was Ma. Doct. Gifford authour of these accusations ? If he were , why did you not then take your pennyworths of him , and make him to doe publique satisfaction , these things beeing so notoriouslie false ? I am sure you might haue had iustice , when the matter came to hearing before his holines his Nuncio .

Beleeue it , good Fa: these circumstances will make all the world thinke these accusations true , if you maintaine the D. to be Authour of them , sith that he not onely went vnpunished , but that you also by your Proctor asked him forgiuenes . And as for Ma. Charles Paget , the world knowes , you would neuer haue spared him one iot , if you had found the least hole that might be in his coate . But ( to let this passe ) it skilleth not much from whom the accusations come , the author must beare his owne burden . Yet will wee performe our office , and sincerelie examine the truth of euery particuler accusation .

The first article is this . Artic. 1. The Iesuits are so ambitious , as not content with the bounds theyr Fathers had placed , they haue in theyr insatiable desire , alreadie swallowed vp kingdoms and Monarchies . Ma : Parsons in a marginall note termeth this an absurd contumelious speech : and in the text asketh with what conscience we could publish this slaunder to the world , &c. To this I say , that being but printed , as themselues divulged them , whether the words may be stretched in worse sence , then in the originall in Latine ( if any such be ) wee know not , and might suspect ( perhaps not without reason ) the worst at their hands ; yet , as they are , I will not say , that this is so absurd & false as Ma. Parsons affirmeth . For if you will but indifferently consider what we haue said concerning their practises with vs heere , both in Wisbich and abroad , as also theyr plots and practises concerning matters of state , apparant by theyr owne bookes , letters , and open actions , discouered in part , both in the Important considerations , & in the booke of Quodlibets , and others of late printed ; I do not see how a man can well auoyde the suspition of a desire in them of the whole Monarchie of England . Which suspition is not a little fortified , by their forecasting of matters , both for generall & particuler affaires to be ordered by them , or at their discretion & directions , when the time serueth : as appeareth by Fa: Parsons proude pamphlet of Reformation , intermedling with all estates . See more thereof in the Quodlibets . Which points considered , may not a man reasonably suspect , that they haue swallowed alreadie in their desires the kingdome , & Monarchie of England . Doe not their late attempts in Ireland shew as much for that kingdome ?

I will omit their stratagems in Fraunce , and Scotland , and that which is reported of Iapona , and other places in the Indies : where they keepe to themselues the sole dominion , & will admit no other Clergie , but play Bishop , priest , and Munck themselues . Neither is it a sufficient aunswer to reply , that they take not vpon them the name or title of King . For that importeth not , so they may gouerne and direct Kings , Nobles , Bishops , prelates , and others . Therein consists theyr ambition , Artic. 6. and swallowing of kingdoms here spoken of . And by this you may see the truth and veritie of the sixt article of accusation against them . sct . That if this ambition do remain vnpunished , the age that is to come , shall see that it wil bring bondage , not onely to Prelates , but to Princes & Monarches themselues . &c. Iudge whether this doe not probably , yea euidently follow vpon the first . And for the subiecting of Prelats , it is too too well knowne by experience , that manie Bishops haue much to doe with them , their force is so great , and they stand so much vpon their priuiledges . Besides , the foundation layd by Ma. Parsons , in the forenamed Treatise of Reformation , Artic. 7. sct . of making all Bishops & Prelates pensioners , doth conuince no lesse . For which they had cause ( whosoeuer they were that dealt in this matter ) to beseech his holines , that he would lay the axe to the tree , and cut of the pride of this Societie , &c. which we likewise pray & beseech ( for their good ) may be done by the axe of Reformation ; that beeing brought within order , as other Friers and religious men be , they may attend vnto the quier , and their deuotions , and not to kingdoms , and Monarchies ; which must needes eyther breed their own ouerthrow , or the destruction of kingdoms , and sedition to all Christian common welths , as by many examples in Fraunce , Swethland , England , and else where they haue alreadie wrought .

The Pope can commaund nothing in all his Mandates , Artic. 9. but the Iesuits finde meanes to frustrate it by seculer power . This is the 9. article of accusation , of which this our Fa: asketh whether it can be true , or probable . Hee hath forgot belike the notorious fact at Louaine , where the Iesuits , by the power , and authority of the King of Spaine , forbad the publishing of the Popes order for the Vniuersitie against the Iesuits . This fact belike this good father thought to haue beene so secret , as it was vnknown to the world , or at the least forgotten . He likewise thinketh , that the world tooke no notice of their dilation euen in Rome it selfe to admit the Popes Breve against vti scientia habita in confessione , making vse of any thing , which was learnt by confession ( which al other religious men presently admitted without reply , ) vntill such time as his holinesse sent them a new Mandate , in virtute sanctae obedientiae , sub censuris ipso facto incurrendis , presentlie without delay to admit thereof . Many more examples in this kinde might be produced , to shew their aptnes to resist the Popes Mandates , and the little esteeme , or reuerence they beare towards such of them as check , or controle their disorders . Witnes this their irreligious irreuerence towards Sixtus quintus , and open preaching against him in Spaine : and rayling against him else where , vsing approbrious , & irreuerent speeches of him in Rome it selfe .

That the Iesuits doe eagerly waite for the death of the Pope , and of the renowned Cardinall Toled , Artic. ●0 . that they may bring slaughter vpon all , &c. What their desires haue been concerning the death of his Holines , I cannot affirme , but sure I am , they affected him but a little in the beginning of his raigne , both for his proceedings against them , in the behalfe of the Scholers in the English Colledge in Rome , ( as by the History thereof you shall shortly see at large ) as also for his ioyning with his Maiestie of Fraunce , that now is against the Spanish intentions , and designes , wherein their fingers were deepely plunged ( as all men know ) and they yet feele : but as for the worthie Prelate Card : Toled , I thinke few men be ignorant of their clamours against him of ambition , and partiality for his dealings in the affaires of the English Colledge . Which might giue a probable conceite of their desire , or expectance of his death . For they vse not much to lament the death of their enemies . And if any man shall goe about to denie , that any clamours or detracting speeches were euer vsed by them against this worthy Card : I will say , hee is impudent , and hath a face of brasse , and is as shamelesse as Ma. Parsons ; who wil affirme , or denie any thing . For my selfe haue heard the fore-said irreuerent speeches from some of their owne mouthes . Now for the sequell of slaughter , or blood-shed , I leaue it as divulged by themselues , and to the proofe of the author , if any such thing were laid to their charge by anie . And for the truth thereof , their owne consciences must aunswer , though they giue no great occasion of our good conceite towards them , for their future actions by their former dealings , touching the 23. 24. and 25. art : of the Iesuits , seeking the gouernment of the Colledge of Doway , or dissolution thereof ; we haue said sufficiently already . As concerning the 13. art : preposterously brought in heere , that it is a knowne maxime among the Iesuits diuide et impera , set diuision , and them you shall gouerne at your pleasure . I thinke no man that is not wilfully blind can excuse them heerein , if he doe but halfe indifferently consider their proceedings from time to time , as well in the Colledge at Rome , and amongst the English in Flaunders , as also in England at Wisbich Castle , and in these late generall garboiles . In all which stirres , their chiefest busines hath beene to set men first together by the eares , by strange slanders , calumniations , and other Machiauilian policies , and then to attempt their purposes , and designes of rule , and dominion . He that readeth what is already shewed in this reply , and what hath beene said in former discourses , concerning their proceedings both at home , & abroad , must needes confesse as much , vnlesse he will denie apparent effects to proceed from their proper and vnknowne causes .

That the Iesuits vse to intercept all manner of letters , Artic. 10. is so generall an acclamation in forraine Countries , that it seemeth not to be clean void of verity , though for my own part I cannot say that I haue seene them intercept any Card : or Princes packets . But for experience of this matter , concerning meaner mens letters , many a score will beare witnes with me , that it is too too vsuall amongst them , not onely in Rome , but also in the low Countries , and in England to , and some letters cited by this good Fa: in his Apologie approue as much .

As concerning the attestation in the 12. article , Art. 12. see what we haue said before to the conclusion of Fishers Memoriall , as also for the 13. article following . Art. 13. For more proofe ▪ and verity whereof , consider but their late dealings both in the Romaine Colledge , low Countries , Wisbich , & now generally throughout England . Which I omit heere to recite , because you may read more at large thereof in the former treatises , heeretofore published .

For the verity of the 19. article , touching the contempt of the President , & the renowned Card : we referre you to what is said before to the 20 article .

To speake much to the 17. article of the reuolt of eyther priests or Iesuits , Art. 17. I am not willing , pittying , and lamenting as well the fact of the one , as the other . Yet this I must tell Fa : Parsons , that it is a very common practise amongst his people , and their followers , to note not onely the reuolt of any priests , but also whatsoeuer infirmity they can imagine to be in them : and this of purpose to the disgracing of priests , euery where suggesting , that neuer any of their order fainted in the least sort . Which how contrarie to truth it is , we know , & are rather sorie for them , then purpose in vaunting manner to presse them with the ignominie thereof . But if they will needes prosecute such vncharitable courses to our disgraces , I promise this good Father , that I will note him aboue eyght of his order that haue incurred this disgrace , and bring him testimonie thereof , sed qui stat videat , ne cadat . I pray GOD hartily neuer any of them may reuolt .

And by the way , I must tell you that it is but a iugling trick to delude your eyes , when they say that neuer any , sent in obedience of his superiour , fell . For hereby will they exclude any one that shal incur this disgrace ; either affirming that they had dismissed him before he fell , or that they came not from their superiours , but of their owne heads . This is a politick shift which they haue in their order , aboue all other religious societies ; that they may dismisse any out of their order before his last vow , which fewe , in respect of the multitude of them , are admitted vnto . Where-vpon it happeneth , that sometimes a man is 20. or 30. yeeres a Iesuit , and afterwards is dismissed . By which shift they put of many notorious things committed by them ; dismissing the persons delinquent out of theyr order secretly , to auoyde the note of their crimes , which other Religious orders cannot doe . Yet cannot this iustifie them neither , if wee would enter the lists with them in this point . Now to the other articles of English matters , and English Iesuits , the first is of their dissension , and particulerly of Fa: Garnet , and Fa: Weston , which this Fa: saith we contradict in our latter bookes , complayning that Fa: Garnet , Father Weston , Fa: Parsons , and the rest , are too much vnited , the one obeying the others becke .

You haue read I suppose the history of Sampsons Foxes , who were all tied together by the tayles , running with their heads diuers courses , yet all into the Philistians corne . To let you therefore vnderstand more , both of their owne contradictions , & of theyr vnitie , it is with them , as it often times happeneth amongst children of one familie , s●t . brothers and sisters , who will very ordinarily fall out amongst themselues , but when they come to a third controuersie , or conflict , to wit , that any one of them falleth out with a third person , a stranger vnto them , they will all take part together , and fall vpon the forrainer : like as the seditious in Herusalem quarrelled daily , and hourely one against another , to theyr miserable destruction by ciuill mutinie , yet would they alwayes ioyne together against the Romans . So the Iesuits , howsoeuer they iarre amongst themselues , yet are they all bent together , & vnited against all others that oppose any one of them , or their proceedings . Heereupon Sixtus quintus , of famous memory , was wont to say of them ( as diuers of credit in Rome reported ) Qui tangit vnum , tangit omnes , and themselues many times haue affirmed no lesse , in the late stirrs of the Romane Colledge . But for this Fa : or any other to say , that they haue not many and often iarres , and those no small ones neither , is to fall into the depth of impudencie . Witnes the great controuersie betwixt the Spanish and Italian Iesuits not manie yeeres past : witnes the iarrs betweene fa: Crighton and father Parsons , for Scottish , and Spanish affaires : the like betwixt him and fa: Haywood in England ; him and fa: Holt , & diuers others of them , as fa: Cresswell , and fa: Edmund Harwood , against fa: Hieronimo Fierouante , and fa: Iulio , the Confessor of the English Colledge in Rome ; whereupon the remooue of the two latter followed , as all know , who were then in the Colledge . This poynt is so euident to all the world , as I assure my selfe no one religious Order in Gods Church commeth neere vnto them therein : witnes their daily expulsions out of theyr order , and the multitude departing from them yeerely .

The 3. 5. and 7. articles are , that the Iesuits be firebrands of all sedition , enemies to all secular priests : such notable lyers as none will belieue them , no not when they sweare : that by the schismaticks in England , they are called Horsleeches . &c. For the two first poynts , theyr late actions both at home , and abroad , do witnes so euidently , that none , who are therwith acquainted , can iudge any otherwise of them . For the last , concerning the imputation of lying , so famous and notorious are theyr equiuocations , & so scandalous , that the very Protestants take notice thereof , to the great preiudice of our profession , alwaies heretofore famous for our truth and sincerity . But such iuglings and shiftings of late haue beene vsed by them , that not onely Protestants , but also Catholicks , yea Priests can scarce tell , when they speake sincerely , when otherwise .

I know they will vsually make great shewes of kindnes , where they least affect : witnes this a pretie cunning policie of one of them , Ma. Iones . not long since practised vpon an honest gentleman : who beeing to haue entertainement in a certaine place , before his repaire thether , this Iesuit vsing great shew of kindnes towards him , would needes of curtesie bestow his Letters vpon him for his better credit , and kinder entertainment : which the honest gentleman , receiuing as a kindnes , departed . But by the way ( beeing somewhat acquainted with their tricks , and hauing no great cause to put ouer-much confidence in their dealings ) hee thought good to see , whether hee caried not hote coales , to burne his owne coate . Wherevppon opening the Letter , he found such stuffe against him selfe , as had I not seene the same , I should hardly haue belieued it to haue beene true . But this tricke of honestie was borowed of worthy father Parsons , the cunningest polititian in these practises aliue , I thinke .

Witnes this his dealing with Robert Shepheard , in his commendations to Doctor Eley in Musepont : Witnes this his dealing with diuers scholers after the attonement in Rome . How soeuer this kinde of dealing may seeme excusable vnto them , vnder the name of honest equiuocations : sure I am that fewe honest men will excuse it from dishonest lying . I remember that a reuerend * * Ma. A. R. honest Priest once told me , that he discoursed aboue an houre with a * * Ma. Ioh. Gerard. Iesuit , and many complements passed , but not on reall intended veritie from the good Father . A worthy practise in Religious men to affect such dishonest dealings , which tendeth to nought els , but to take away all societie & conuersation amongst men , which is hatefull euen vnto Pagans and Turkes . For howe should a man conuerse with such a one , whose conceits and meanings hee shall neuer vnderstand , whereby he shal often conceiue most good , when the other intendeth most knauery and villanie .

But to make an end of these articles . Fa: Parsons collecteth one ( in close and end of all ) to make you laugh , to wit , that he , and his companions ( as is reported ) gathered fiftie thousand pounds out of England to their owne vse . But Fa: Parsons merry iest is , the multiplication of this summe to 200. millions of Italian scudi . Heere forsooth he telleth you the people must laugh . I know some persons so merrily disposed , that eftsoones they can laugh at a feather ; but if wisedome with discretion , and grauitie , consider this multiplication , I verily think no such merry mood will moue their conceits , but rather iudge that error to haue beene either in the transcription to the presse , or in the Printer , then of malice which were too too blind , or ignorance ( which were as grosse , ) to mistake so much the alteration of the summe out of one kind of coyne into an other . See now whether there were more malice or ignorance in the error , or more folly in the carping exceptions . But we must giue him leaue to snatch at the least aduantage ; for all will be too little to iustifie themselues , or excuse their actions . But let vs come a little to the accusation about their collections . It is well knowne that collections in England haue not been small , yet haue the distributions been so scant , and sparing , that poore prisoners neuer liued in the like want , as of late yeeres they haue done : let them speake heereof , that haue felt the smart ; yet all the world knoweth , that such Collections haue passed generally thorow theyr hands , what becommeth thereof God knoweth . But sure I am that for themselues , ( howsoeuer prisoners are pincht ) they liue in aboundance , and excesse , ( as before I haue noted some examples thereof , and something by the way I will tell you . It is not long sithence 22. hundred pounds in gold were taken going ouer the Seas , which being confiscate to her Maiestie , neuer any came to claime the same , neither could it be knowne whose it was , and more then this ; by some of the highest it was thought verily to be the Iesuits money . I will not say absolutely it was theirs , because I was not of their counsaile : but it was a wonder that the owners ( if it belonged to any others ) would make no meanes by way of suite , or supplication , to haue got ( at the least ) some part thereof backe againe , sith the chiefest penalty was but the confiscation of the money taken ; which no man going about , made the matter more suspitious to all men . But more wil be said heereof , if there be any further occasion .

Now I will onely proceede by coniectures , and add to the rest some other probabilities , or inducements , in that the Iesuits being religious men , and therefore poore , yet some of our English Iesuits beyond the Seas , who haue no reuenues , or commings in any way knowne ; will sometimes bestow largely in crownes , of their owne purse , vpon such fauorites or factors , as they imploy in their affaires , & practises abroad in the world . This is a thing not vnknowne to many of our English men , liuing abroad in the low Countries , and else where . How many did Fa. Holt deale with-all in the low Countries in this kind , keeping correspondencie with many needy fellowes , and imploying many bare mercenarie men in his affaires ? There be also that will affirme ( and of credit ) that Fa: Rich. Walpole in Spaine , giuing good store of crowns vnto a certaine English man ( whom it was thought he meant to vse in some honest peece of seruice , ) was afterwards ( the matter being knowne ) examined how he came by so much money , and he aunswered , that he receaued it out of England from his friends : But we all know that Fa : Rich. Walpoles friends in England are not of such ability , as to send him such exhibition . Now would I aske Fa: Parsons whence this money came ? But you perhaps wil demaund how such summes should come to their hands ? I aunswer , that it is wel known that they haue had the disposition of the common purse for many yeeres , and the receits of almost all legacies in pios vsus , yeerely almes , extraordinarie gifts , besides restitutions de bonis incertis , much for dispensations in diuers cases , ( euery one running to them by reason of their large faculties ▪ ) and for alienations , ad-vousions , &c. All which receites rise to no small summe . There hath falne by way of legacies within these few yeeres of my knowledge ( besides what other men can say ) 2000. pound , ( some affirme 3000. pound ) from one man of worth , 500. pounds from an other priuate Gent: 800. pound from another , and some 100. pound yeerely in lands , and rents besides . All which portions , besides infinite other legacies of lesse summes , haue come vnto their hands , and disposition : and whereof no man can say iustly that he hath receaued one penny , I verily think . Besides , Ma : Iohn Gerard for his part , got by one Gent: 200. pound at one time , ( the bonds for which I once saw by chaunce ) & 700. pound at another time , ( as his neerest kinsmen will depose , ) besides the disposition of 100. pound by the yeere : of which the Gent: ( all accounts being taken to a pot of beere ) neuer spent 50. pound yeerely . The said Iesuit had in another place by a priests procurement , who told me thereof , Clx. pound , of another he receaued 500. pound in a matter of restitution , certa pro incertis , the party hauing compounded before by the aduise of another priest , for 300. pound , which he should haue giuen to the prisoners of Wisbich . But this young Father comming to the party hoysed the sum vnto 500. pound , and tooke it vnto himselfe , depriuing the said prisoners therof . Furthermore , he receaued at times of a Gent: and his mother , by his meanes , aboue 1000. markes . All this to me is knowne , besides what I know not of , and what he hath gotten by the vse of his exercises , in which kinde many will say he hath got no small summes . Iudge then by these few examples , what great summes may soone accrew vnto theyr purses : and with this doe but consider how their factors , and such as haue imployments for them in this kind , grow from meane estates , and small expences vnto good shewes in the world , and much encrease in their yeerely expences . Of which number two for example are generally knowne ( I dare say ) vnto many .

There is a Gentleman in London , I. G. whose estate we know to haue beene so weake , as that his shew could not reach vnto his ranke ; but shortly falling in with the Iesuits to be a factor for them , since these late garboyles , he is become a man of no meane reputation . His maintenance is sound , and large , insomuch that whereas xx . shillings hath been money in his purse heere-to-fore , he can now hazard twenty nobles at play . I verily thinke you will say that this encrease can come no other way then from their box .

There is likewise another Gentleman , that hath beene longer acquainted with the Iesuits affaires , and a man wholie imployed by them , especially as Dispensator , or rather receauer of such beneuolences as haue beene giuen in pios vsus , for the maintenaunce of poore prisoners . We haue knowne this man somtimes of the Temple , not so largely prouided for by his friends , as able to make halfe that shew he now doth : yet did he then enioy all that his friends had left him . For if he remember , when he vsed the Ordinarie , at a kinsmans house of his owne with other Gentlemen , his commings in were so small , that diuers times , and ( vnlesse I be very fowly deceaued ) for some yeeres together , his kinswoman to maintaine his credit with the other Gentlemen , gaue him his ordinarie money before meale to pay with the rest . Belieue me , by the port he now carrieth , and the state he taketh vpon him therwith , you would thinke him a man of no small reuenewes . Whereuppon you may gesse , that eyther his fortunes haue beene very extraordinarie of late , and vnknowne too , or else hee is largely beholding vnto his good Maisters that imploy him in these affaires . But howsoeuer the world fareth with him , I would his charitie , or iustice , or both , were more indifferent in his distributions , then they haue beene : and that hee would not at his pleasure , and small discretion , discerne betwixt the deserts , or not deserts of prisoners , lay , or priests , and exempt at his will whom he list . If he will be an Oeconomus or Dispensator , hee must one day reddere rationem villicationis .

I remember once this Gentleman came vnto Bridewell to certaine poore prisoners there to see their wants , and finding them in extreame necessity , he began to examine them , whether they resorted , and to whom ; and finding that they were acquainted with a priest in the Clinck , he turned his backe in a choler , saying ; that they deserued nothing , and that they should lie , and doe as they would for him , and so departed leauing them neuer a penny . How true this is , the poore prisoners , that felt the smart , can tell ; and one can testifie that was within hearing , when this passed which I haue declared . Many more hangers on this box , and those hungry ones too , could I name , if I would spend my time so idly as to enrole them here . Wats : I could name one that was of late a prisoner ( not for building of Churches ) who ( by his owne confession ) receiued 30. pound of the Archpriest , and Iesuits . This man should haue beene imployed for them in our affaires . All this , to any man of wisedome , and indifferencie , can import no lesse , then that the Iesuits be Maisters of no small commings in , when as , both themselues are so well furnished , and theyr followers , and hangers on so extraordinarily prouided for .

But you will say , that although much come to their hands , yet doth it not follow , that they either heape it vp for themselues , or send it ouer vnto their Societie beyond the seas . For it is well knowne , that very much is sent by them vnto prisoners abroade in all places . And sith there must be some to haue care of those matters for prisoners , it is more befitting vnto the Iesuits , ( being religious men , & therefore not of the world , nor to gape after worldly thinges , or to respect anie thing in the world more then for necessity to maintaine nature ) then to any other , who haue not forsaken the world , & preferments thereof . First I aunswer , that I take not vppon me to charge them with sending ouer of summes beyond the seas , neither doe I meane to draw vpon my selfe the maintaining of these obiections and accusations layd to their charge , ( as at the first I said ) but onely to deliuer sincerely such matters which I know to be true , and that euen plainly as they were , leauing the iudgment thereof vnto the indifferencie of the Reader ; onely to that end , that the world might see vpon what grounds such accusations might arise , and that we haue had more occasion in very deed to complaine against them , then the world would take notice of .

And for their large dispensing of almes giuen , & receiued , let any that hath wit and vnderstanding , iudge by that little , which we haue set downe , ( which in very deed is very small , in respect of that , which hath been giuen ) whether there be any proportion betwixt the receits , & the distributions : besides , wee talke not heere , nor speake one word of the common Collections which are yeerely made for prisoners , nor such yeerely exhibition , as we know good deuout Cath: doe giue to prisoners , and prisons , neither of priuate almes giuen in particuler , from particuler friends , vnto particuler men in prison : all which considered , I think it will not be found out , that very much more commeth to prisoners besides this . What then ( thinke you ) may become of that which wee haue spoken of , and such like summes ?

And touching the Iesuits sending so largely to prisoners , let the Clincke , Framingham , and other places , witnes theyr great charitie for these two yeeres past , or there abouts . Concerning their abnegation of the world , and worldly preferment , whereby the credit and trust of such collections , & distributions , should rather be committed to them , then others ; I would it were with them , as it is with other religious men , that forsake the world . But it is otherwise , for they are neuer without one foote in the world , and that deepely to . I might say ( I feare me ) hands , legges , body , and all , howsoeuer they make shew to the contrary . And for to shew you , that they too too much affect the world , and seeke too earnestly after the wealth thereof , I will set you downe one pretie Spanish example , omitting infinite other which I could relate .

It fortuned that a rich man in Valledolid in Spaine , lying at the point of death , had giuen largely vnto the Iesuits , & vppon compassion towards the English men liuing in the English Colledge there , he layd out a good summe of gold vpon a table , by him in the chamber , where he lay , with order that it should be giuen to that Colledge , towards the maintenance of the English there . This gold lying thus in view , in commeth a lay brother of the Iesuits to visite the sick ; and falling into discourse with the party deceased , began to relate vnto him what care was had of him by their Fathers , and that there was continuall prayer for him in their Colledge . The sicke man thanked him , and them for their mindfulnes of him in those extremities , and told him that he had also taken order , that the poore English men which liued in the towne for Gods cause , should haue such a summe of money , which lay vpon the table , to pray for him . The lay brother perceauing the gold to make a faire shew , repined that it fell not also to their share . Where-vpon he entered into a discourse with the sicke person of the pouerty of their Fathers , and that they being naturally borne in the Country , were forgotten of euerie body , and by that meanes were very poore : but the English men were very rich , and euery man gaue vnto them , adding with-all that their Fathers would be more carefull to pray for him then the English men , and their prayers more effectuall for him . By this discourse he got the gold into his fingers , and departed merrily : but the English Iesuits , who were in the English Colledge , when they vnderstood thereof , were euill appayed , and complained thereof . If this be a lye , blame the English Iesuits of Valedolid , who spared not to complaine heereof to the Scholers . I should wearie you , to relate all the stories I could tell you , of them in this kinde : but to auoyde tediousnes , you shall content your selfe onely with this at this time .

After that Fa: Parsons had done with these accusations , he bringeth in againe preposterously a thing deliuered in the 25. page of our Relation , viz. that after Cardinall Allens death , the students in the English Colledge at Rome , felt no lesse oppression there by the Iesuits tyranizing Gouernours , then wee did at home , &c. How true this accusation is , the story of those stirres shall shew you , as in part hath already beene deliuered , neither will this Fathers threats , and bigge words serue his turne , to out-braue innocent men for telling truth , and shaming the deuill , and the authors , and actors in such vniust , vncharitable , and irreligious proceedings : which his Apologie deceitfully shufleth of , and vntruly relateth , as shall appeare in the discourse thereof . Concerning Fa: Garnets bestirring of himselfe for subscriptions against the fore-said accusations , wee haue already said sufficiently how vniust both the letters , writ in that behalfe were ; as also how vndiscreete the subscriptions were of such , as without all limitation freely subscribed thereto . Yet heere by the way , I may not omit Fa: Garnets letter in that behalfe , wherein ( the rather to moue all men to subscribe to a generall acquiting them of all such things ) he protesteth coram deo et angelis , that there was not mica veritatis , in those accusations ; which yet Fa: Parsons durst not so peremptorily affirme : when hee sayeth onely that all was not true therein contayned , couertly insinuating that some things were true . And I will referre my selfe , and all my poore credite vnto the Reader heereof ; whether manie things in that Collection be not true , yea , all things either in whole or part ; whereby you may note , what a dangerous protestation Fa: Garnet entered into , materially contayning a manifest vntruth ; howsoeuer the formality thereof may seeme to be excused by some hidden equiuocation or other . And as for his modesty or scrupulosity in his triple diuision , ( as Fa: Parson sayeth ) you must giue me leaue to think it rather to haue proceeded vpon a guilty conscience , or policie , or both ; thereby to draw euery man to subscribe . For hee might well imagine , that some men would look into the matter , at least so neere , as not to subscribe more , then they could auouch , howsoeuer some few might be induced thereto . And what reason , or shew of innocencie there was in the performance of that office , on the Iesuits behalfe , I know not ; neither doe I see that necessitie in the prosecution thereof , that Fa: Garnet could doe no lesse ( as Fa: Parsons affirmeth . ) For I would but aske him this one question ; why he did not procure a iuridiciall examination of matters , that men might speak , what they knew vpon their oathes ; but would shuffle them vp in corners , and seeke to draw men by fauours , perswasions , & the like , to testifie for them , as I am able to proue they did . This kinde of couert dealing in any wise mans iudgement , could not but yeeld great suspition of guilty consciences in them : For all men know , that a man will conceale many things , which he could say , being but ordinarily thereof demaunded ; which he would not doe , being examined iuridicè vpon his oath . Besides , who is ignorant , that such as should haue accused them by their subscriptions , should thereby haue incurred their high displeasure , ( which for ought I see many yet feare ) and yet haue done thereby small good , in that their subscriptions should haue been concealed , or by some meanes or other frustrated of their ends , as the subscriptions of the three priests were , who subscribed somewhat disliking to their humors . But there was a farther policie in these matters . The procuring of these subscriptions , were but an introduction to other poynts , which they had in hand , concerning the Archpresbiterie . For by this meanes did they first sound the affections of priests towards them , & try what they could doe with them , if the like manner of occasion should serue afterwards , as in the same sort they did , after the institution of the Archp : by priests subscriptions to a congratulation procure his confirmation .

After the end of all this , our good Fa: seemeth to lament our case for defaming of theyr order : and hee citeth manie Authors against diffamations , and defamors of others , & specially of Religious orders . But I would faine knowe to what end hee so much laboureth , in quoting Authors to this purpose . Can he thinke that men , who professe to direct other mens consciences , can be ignorant of the sinne of detraction , and penalties thereof ? Well , in execution and practise men may erre , but it were great folly & rashnes for him to thinke them ignorant in the knowledge or speculation of it . Or is Fa: Parsons so vnobseruaunt of his owne actions & writings , that he doth not see that wee can retort all that hee hath said heerein against himselfe ? Is there any man liuing that hath more defamed Ecclesiasticall men then Fa: Parsons ? Was it not Fa: Parsons that defamed so many vertuous Priests & scholers in the Seminarie of Rome , and divulged the same to all the world , and now in print in his Apologie ? Is it not fa: Parsons that in the said Apologie hath defamed 12. or 13. reuerend priests prisoners in Wisbich ? Is it not Father Parsons that hath divulged in the said booke , & by letters through the world , diffamation against all the priests of England , that refused to subscribe to the Archpriest ? Was it not fa: Parsons that enformed falsly vnto his Holines , against not onely all the Priests of England , but also all Cath: suggesting to his Holines , that they were at varience and quarrelling one with the other ? Was it not Fa: Parsons chiefely that defamed Ma: Doctor Gifford , and now renueth the same course againe in his Apologie ? Nay , who liueth amongst vs , that euer opposed himselfe against any proceedings of the Iesuits , & felt not this Fathers good words ? See now good Sir , what danger you stand in , through your vniust and slaunderous calumniations . But as for that we haue sayd or done , you shall see that wee will sufficiently purge our selues of all such dangers , which he shall neuer be able to doe .

First you know , it is a generall receaued ground by all , that when the actions of any particuler man or men , ( be they of what degree they will be , secular or religious , Ecclesiasticall or Lay ) do tend vnto any generall , or common hurt of a communitie : ( as for example , the actions of some particuler seruaunt in a familie , to the ruine or ouerthrow of the familie , some particuler scholer or scholers in a Colledge , to the subuersion of the Colledge , or some particuler men in a common wealth , to the destruction of a Common wealth , ) it is then not onely lawfull to disclose these particuler men , and theyr particuler actions , though otherwise priuate and diffamatorie vnto the said particuler parties ( as all such actions of theyr owne nature must needs be ) but also euery honest seruaunt , euery faithfull seruaunt , euery true scholer , and loyall subiect , is bound in conscience vpon his duty to his Master , faith vnto his Colledge , loyaltie to his Prince , and loue to his country , to disclose such persons , and their facts or intentions , with our regard or respect vnto the hurt , or damage , that may redound vnto the said particuler parties so offending . The reason heereof is this , because a generall good is alwayes to be preferred before a particuler , and a greater hurt to be eschued before a lesse . As for example , when two euils concurre so that both cannot be auoyded , but that necessarily the one must happen , it is not onely charitie , but euery man is also bound to preuent the greater euill with permission of the lesse rather then the contrary .

This foundation beeing layd , which is grounded vppon the law of nature ; now will I easily make you see , that our divulging of some proceedings of Fa: Parsons , and other Iesuits , is not onely voyd of iust imputation , but also lawful , iust , and necessary , all circumstances considered , & therefore free from the danger of those penalties cited by Fa: Parsons in this worke . And first , for the reuealing , or indeede divulging of things already reueled by theyr owne foolish open dealings . Concerning matter of state , who can be so ignorant , as not to know , that he is bound more to loue his country then a Iesuit , yea , the whole order of the Iesuits : sith vnto the first he is bound by the law of nature , to the second onely by the law of fraternall charitie . Now then the actions of the Iesuits tending so euidently as they doe , and haue done to the ruine , subuersion , and ouerthrow of our Prince , and country , both by secret practises , & open incursions of Spanish inuasions , ( as is manifest both by theyr own books , letters , & other dealings , as well in Ireland , as England ) what good subiect , or true-harted Englishman can doe lesse then disclaime with his mouth , resist with his blood , and open with his tongue , all such vnnaturall and trecherous attempts ?

And if any man be so simple , or so deluded by theyr fayre words , as that he hath not , or doth not see any such practise , or intention in them , let him not therefore blame vs for speaking therof , or divulging the same , who are too wel acquainted therewith , and therefore bound to reueale , what we know therein , when it shall be necessary for the preseruation of our Prince and Countrey . Neither let any man be so simple as to thinke , that because they are religious men , and Catholicks , therefore they may be priuiledged the more in such courses , vnder pretence of Reformation , for such a conceit were very erroneous . If in a Lay person , ( vnder what pretence soeuer ) it be vnlawfull to worke the ruine of his country , much more is it vnlawfull in a Religious person , vnto whom such affaires belong not . But some will say , they tend not vnto any subuersion of theyr Country , but to a Catholicke reformation . To such a fond obiection ( yet too too common ) I aunswer , that whatsoeuer they pretend , they goe about to effect it by externe hostile meanes . And how this should be without conquest and mutation , and subuersion of all , is impossible to be conceiued . Besides , he that hath wit will know , that the kingdome of England is a faire marke to shoote at : & therefore cannot be so fond or foolish as to imagine , that an inuader hauing got the field , will leaue the crowne , which once possest , he will seeke to keepe . And I suppose you will imagine that a Spaniard will rather put himselfe in trust to himselfe , and his force , by which he entereth , then vnto the curtesies of those , whom he conquereth . If so , must he not doe as William the conquerour did , erect his vassalls , and Country men , and suppresse the nobility , and other the naturall inhabitants of the Countrey ? Doth hee not so in other places , which he hath got by the sword , transferring in some parts of the Indies , and rooting out all the inhabitants almost of the Countries , and planting Spaniards and Aliens ? And can any Cath: be so simple , as to perswade himselfe of any regard to be had to him , in such an inuasion , because he is a Cath: Truly I doe wonder at such fond conceits . Haue they forgot , or haue they not heard that in the yeere 1588. all had gone to wrack , Cath: and others ? If they will not heerein beleeue me , let them beleeue Fa: Parsons affirming as much to diuers . And that the Duke de Medina , generall of the Nauie , affirmed , that he knew no difference : let them beleeue Fa: Southwells speeches , vttered to the same purpose at Wisbich , amongst the priests there . Incredulous men heerein doe not certes vnderstand of their proceedings at the winning of Antwerpe , where they made no difference of murdering , & spoyling whomsoeuer ; amongst whom were diuers Cath: slaine , and spoyled after their entrance ; and the sooner when the Souldiers perceaued they were Cath: ( as I haue heard ) for feare of loosing their pray : See what reason wee haue to presse them with these matters .

Secondly , for the opening of their proceedings concerning their Clergie , we haue much more reason to disclose the same , because they tend to a greater mischiefe being against a greater , and more pretious Common-wealth . Wherefore if those things by vs divulged touching such affaires be true , there is no man of iudgement , and vnderstanding , can blame vs for manifesting the same ; sith it is more , then necessarie , that such euill attempts , and indeuours , which tend to the ouerthrow , and destruction of the ecclesiasticall Hierarchie , be knowne , and fore-seene of all men ; that thereby the vniuersall mischiefe , which otherwise would ensue , might be auoyded , and their insultations against ecclesiasticall persons , and the priuiledges of the seculer Clergie with more speed checked , and controlled .

This is so true a position , that I suppose no man will denie it , in that the church of Christ cannot stand , without the seculer Clergie , viz. Bishops , Priests , &c. But it is certaine , that it may stand without any particuler order of Religion , being magis ad ornamentum , et adiumentum ecclesie ex conuenientia , quam ex necessitate . And therefore euery man is bound in conscience more to the preseruation of the seculer Clergy , and priuiledges thereof , then to any perticuler order of Religion in the Church ; yea , then to all orders whatsoeuer of particuler obseruations . Now then the question onely remayneth , whether the imputations of those things , obiected by vs against them , be true or no : which knowne , all the controuersie of detraction , or penalties thereby incurred , is easily aunswered . And for the proofe of this matter , I refer you to what we haue already written , as well in this reply , & in our former bookes ; as also to an indifferent consideration of their late practises heere amongst vs for a subordination , to depend at their direction , & deuotion : and their attempts in Wisbich , together with Fa: Parsons new worke of reformation . All which duly , and indifferently considered , I know you will say no lesse , then we haue said , and condemne them , as deepely as we doe , for such vniust insultations to the peruerting of all true order in Gods Church , tending to the defacing of that excellent Hierarchie , instituted by Christ him selfe . Neither haue these practises beene onely attempted in England , but also in diuers other parts beyond the Seas ; and diuers Cath: writers haue taxed them there-with . If you vrge yet the divulging of other particuler actions , and proceedings , as particularly those matters of Rome against the Scholers , and also some particuler proceedings against some priuate men : I aunswer , that those proceedings in Rome had the same end , and scope , which these in England haue in seeking to impose a yoake of bondage vppon the Scholers there , before they came into England , that they might tyranize at their will without check , or controle , & disgrace such as contradicted their desires , as you shall more at large see in the discourse of those stirres . Besides , Fa: Parsons , and the Iesuits had defamed many Priests , and Scholers vniustly , and vntruly : whereby they were inforced to enter into the opening of such their proceedings for the maintenance , and recouery of their fames , and credits by them vniustly assaulted , which course ( iustice and truth being obserued ) no man can denie to be lawfull . And as for other particuler wrongs done to particuler men , they haue for the most part tended vnto one and the same end , and therefore vpon one and the same ground reuealed .

Furthermore also , An other case deduced out of the former grounds . to acquaint you with an other case of conscience , wherby all such particuler obiections may be answered , & we easily cleered : you shall vnderstand , that when any person or persons take such courses , as that thereby vnder feyned shewes , or faire glofes , they obfuscate or blind the eyes of the people , whereby they cannot see into the miseries , or dangers whereinto they draw them , then is it lawfull for any man that seeth into the generall euils , which will ensue therby , not onely to open their said practizes , but also ( if it be necessarie , and that otherwise the parties will not be seene into , and such mischiefes auoyded ) to open some other particuler facts or practizes more familiar , or apparent , therby to giue light vnto such , as otherwise wil not conceiue the dangers , and mischiefes following the actions , and practises of such men , or be induced to belieue any such manner of dealings in them , and thereby auoyde them , as dangerous .

As for example : If I knew any one man neere to a Prince or generall Magistrate , whose secret actions , & priuate workings tended vnto the subuersion of the Prince , and Countrey , or Magistrate , and Citty , and that this being vnknowne to the Prince , or Magistrate , affection would not suffer them to see their owne danger , and the danger of their Countrey , Common-wealth , or Citty ; it were not only lawfull for me , to disclose the particuler actions of the said party , though priuate , thereby to giue occasion vnto the Prince or Magistrate , to be more vigilant vnto themselues , and their estates , and more obseruant of the aforesaid dangerous person , but also an act of allegeance to my Prince , and of loue vnto my Country , vnto which euery man is bounde in duty and conscience . So in our case , if any particuler actions of the Iesuits be discouered , they are but matters of proceedings with particuler men , that thereby you might learne by particularities , and matters of lesse moment , to conceiue the better what , & how dangerous their practises be in matters of greater waight ; and how theyr proceedings hold one and the selfe-same course , both in particuler and generall affaires , in matter of lesse and greater moment . And this ( so long as we obserue truth in our relations ) is both lawfull and necessary ( as the case now standeth with the Iesuits , and their actions in England , ) and we are free both from the note of detractors , in reuealing theyr exorbitant proceedings , & penalties thereby incurred . The like cannot be said in theyr behalfe for defaming of vs . For they haue not onely vniustly , and vntruly detracted from our good names , and credits in these matters of our proceedings ( as all the world now seeth ) but also entred into our particuler liues , most falsly going about to touch therein our good names , which no way is excusable , in that if any such thing had beene true in any of vs , yet could it not ( beeing a secret infirmitie ) haue tended to any generall hurt of any whole body , or common-wealth , but onely to a particuler hurt of a mans selfe , which by no law of conscience could be reuealed by them : Neither haue wee done so by them , though I thinke no man will recken them all saints . But those secret diffamations proceeded doubtlesse of a machiauilian ground , and not of iustice , or charitie .

Now let vs come at length vnto the booke of Important considerations , Important considerations . at which our deere Father spitteth no lesse then fire , with words of folly , frensie , fury , mutinie , warre , and defiance , parasiticall , pernicious , erroneous , hereticall , wicked , reprochfull , trayterous , ridiculous , impious , base , and wickedly minded , proctors for hereticks , accusers against persecuted Catholicks , transformed with passion , enuy , malice , sold our tongues to the common enemy , vnited in wicked attempts , contemptible to all Catholicks of discretion , & the like . Certes this good mans zeale was great , when in his heate of choler hee vttered so many fierie and passionate speeches . But yet I must needs craue pardon at his hands to runne ouer this matter a new , and request his patience , that wee may examine the booke againe , and see , whether it deserue so mightie blame , as hee maketh shew of . Belieue me , if it doe , we will cancell it , and blot out his date : but if it proue otherwise , hee must be content to let it passe with a more fauourable interpretation , and not wrest matters into worse sence , then euer the Authors intended .

In the very first entrance into this booke , I wish you to note a cunning falshood of this Father , in the relating of the title of this booke , which he setteth downe thus . Important considerations to mooue all true Catholicks that are not wholy Iesuited , to acknowledge all the proceedings of the state of England against Catholicks , ( since it excluded the Romaine faith , and fell to heresie ) to haue beene not onely iust , but also mild , and mercifull . &c. In this altered title , ( which is not verbatim with the title of the booke ) Fa: Parsons sheweth himselfe not a little ; first in foysting in of the world all before proceedings , thereby to take aduantage of euery petty matter , that hath happened perhaps sometimes by the knauery of some Pursuiuant , or other odd fellow without commission , or warrant ; as also in adding with a Parenthesis ( since it excluded the Romane fayth , and fell to heresie ) therby to make the matter shew more hatefull and haynous . Whereas in very deede , ( as euery man may see , that list to read ouer the Treatise ) the intention is not to excuse , or iustifie euery particuler action of the state , as the action may be in it selfe considered without further respect , then to that particuler bare action . For who will or can iustifie , or excuse the killing of a priest as a priest , or confiscating or hanging of a Cath: as a Cath: meerely for religion . This ( I say ) is not intended in that booke , as all the world may see , for therein is lamented the hard course taken , as well against Priests as Catholicks ; neither for ought I see , doth the state make shew of persecution quo ad vitam et necem , for matter meerely of religion , and conscience , but vppon pretence of treason , or attempts against her Maiesties person , or state , or ( at the least ) vpon the feare thereof .

Now then all the end , and scope of this booke , is none other then this ; to excuse the state from such generall imputation of infamie layd vpon it , especially by the Iesuits ( who haue been the chiefest causers of those vehement afflictions ) as though the state without all cause , or shew of cause , had made lawes against innocent men , and there-vpon persecuted them vnto death , no true occasion of exasperation hauing euer been giuen from any such person , eyther to prince or state . To take away ( I say ) this vndeserued infamie , this treatise was written of purpose , to lay the fault truly , where indeede really it hath beene ; humbly desiring at the feete of our Soueraigne that we being innocent in such actions , may not sustaine the burden of their offences ; but may obtaine so much fauour in her gratious sight , as to be numbred amongst her loyall subiects , and those that hate such vnnaturall , and euer accursed practises , least otherwise we be inforced to say ( lamenting our case ) with the Prophet patres nostri peccauerunt , et non sunt , et nos inquitates eorum portamus . This I say is the whole scope , and intention of this worke , and therefore doth the author giue reasons by particuler mens actions , and vndiscreete attempts , as well by writings , as practises , that the state hath had iust cause to feare , when it perceaued such dealings , and there-vpon was moued to prouide by lawes , and premunitions against the like afterwards . And if by these lawes , and prouisions it happened , that innocent men sometimes were wronged ( as in all generall lawes it happeneth sometimes ) yet was not the state ( all causes first giuen considered ) so much to be condemned ; nay , rather it was to be excused , in that it is most certaine , that it hath not proceeded with that rigor , vpon such causes giuen , as otherwise it might haue done , to the extirpation of all such persons , from whom , or from whose degree , such actions proceeded . And I would but aske Fa: Parsons ( because I know him to be a great statist ) this one question , whether in his conscience he doe think there be any Prince in the world , be he neuer so catholicke , that should haue within his dominions a kind of people , amongst whom diuers times he should discouer matters of treason , and practises against his person , and state , whether he would permit those kind of people , to liue within his dominions , if he could be otherwise rid of them , and whether hee would not make straight Lawes , and execute them seuerely against such offenders , yea , and all of that company , and quality , rather then he would remaine in any danger of such secret practises , and plots ? I thinke Fa: Parsons will not for shame denie this ; especially if he remember the examples of the French religious men , for the like practises expelled England generally , in a Cath: time , and by a Cath: Prince , and theyr lyuings confiscate , and giuen away to others . The like was of the Templars , both in England , and Fraunce . Yea , to come neerer vnto him , was not all their order expelled Fraunce for such matters , and yet the King , and state of Fraunce free from imputation of iniustice in that action ? If these things proceeded from Cath: Princes iustly against whole Communities , or orders of Religion vppon such causes ; wee cannot much blame our Prince , and state , being of a different Religion to make sharpe lawes against vs , and execute the same , finding no lesse occasion thereof in some of our profession , then the fore-said Princes did in other religious persons , whom they punished , as you see . But you will say , that there is no reason , that the innocent should be condemned for another mans fault ; if some one Cath: or Priest were faulty in this kind , all were not so ; how then can the actions of the state against such be iustifiable ? To this I aunswer , that you cannot think that euery particuler French Monke , was guilty of treason in that Kings dayes , when all were expelled , nor is it like that all the Templers were so irreligious , as some of them were , neither doe I think that all the Iesuits were accessarie , or consenting vnto their practises in Fraunce ; yet all ( you see ) payd for the delict of some . Princes are iealous , and haue cause so to be , there depending so much vpon their safety as there doth . When therefore they find trecherie in any Communitie , they will be sure to prouide for the worst , and rather extirpate that Communitie , then liue in feare thereof . Doth it not so happen alwayes , when the Gouernours or Magistrates of a Cittie , counite , or concurre vnto any treason ; doth not the Cittie presently lose all her priuiledges , and the Prince seaze vpon the same , and take all into his owne hands , & gouernment , suppressing the whole state of the Cittie , for the faults of a few onely ? what meruaile then , if this hath happened in our case , where there hath been such difference in religion ? And then iudge whether we , that haue beene innocent in such practises , ( as GOD and our conscience can witnes , and yet haue felt the smart of such proceedings ) haue not great cause to cleere our selues ; to exclaime against such as will neuer leaue to irritate our Prince , and state , and to make known vnto her Maiestie , and our state , the innocencie both of vs , & of our ghostly children ( who haue beene pressed with the burden of afflictions , by reason of such vndutifull attempts in some few vnrestrained persons ) most humbly crauing at her sacred hands , some redresse for such miseries , that the stroke may light where the offence hath been giuen , and not henceforth vpon the necks of poore innocents . If there be any offence in vs towards her Maiestie , or her proceedings , it is onely in matters of religion , which beeing a thing not onely proceeding of mans will , but by a light from God , informing first the vnderstanding , and then the will , ( and therfore not to be altered or disposed as other indifferent actions or conceits may be , ) wee hope may , and will be more excusable in her gracious sight . But for matters of practising against her person , crowne , or state , that is a thing onely proceeding from a peruerse , and passionate will , the vnderstanding still remayning sui iuris , able to discerne ad vtrum libet , eyther of the conueniencies or mischiefs of such affaires , which no way can be excusable .

Now whereas some woorthy men are touched with such vndutifull proceedings in the afore-said Treatise , you must vnderstand , that thereby the persons of the men are not condemned , but rather theyr facts , or they onely in those facts , yet worthy men in themselues . And you must vnderstand , that good men , yea Saints , haue had their errors , ( as these proceedings in these woorthy men must be acknowledged ) neither may we approue such errors because the Authors of them were Saints .

No man approueth the defence of rebaptization in Saint Cyprian , because S. Cyprian is a Martyr , and yet whilst hee liued he defended the same very earnestly , & practised it with great contention against other Bishops . Dauids fact of murthering Vrias , must not be excused , because he was secundum cor Dei , and now a Saint : no , no , passions and errours haue raigned in Saints whilst they were vpon the earth , yea euen amongst the Apostles , and disciples of Christ , whilst he was with them . Therefore let no man be scandalized , that good men and worthy persons are condemned in some particuler facts , sith no man liueth on earth without error .

But you will say , it is commaunded in the Law non reuelabis turpitudinem patris tui , & the two sonnes of Noe were cursed of God , for reuealing and laughing at theyr fathers nakednes : therefore we should rather haue buried such defects of our worthy parents in perpetuall obliuion vnder ground , then haue published them thus to the world . Alas , I would to God it had beene in our power to haue hid these things , without the mischiefes before expressed , belieue vs assuredly the world then should neuer haue had knowledge of them , but it was not in our power , their facts were so publique to the world , & better known vnto our state then to our selues . But it will still be said , if such men of worth , and great vertue , dealt in such matters , why should wee so much exclaime against the Iesuits ? Is their fault so haynous therein aboue the others ? To this I aunswer , that the Iesuits faults are much more , as you also will confesse , if you consider all circumstances well . For first , what was done by these worthy men , was done almost in the first heate of change of Religion , wherin both more passion might mooue , and greater hopes of recouery of religion stirre them vp to such attempts . Besides , their hopes of sincere dealing in such as should haue concurred in those actions meerely for religion , & not of ambition , might draw them on to follow such deuises . For as then the ambitious intentions of the Spaniards were not discouered vnto them ; which once appearing , such as liued , and saw how little sinceritie or care of Gods cause they had , ( but meerely sought after the Crowne , and the subuersion of our country ) not onely repented them of theyr former dealings , but also detested , and hated such proceedings : as was manifest in Cardinal Allen : and doubtlesse would so haue happened in the rest , if they had liued to haue seen the handling of matters since . But for the Iesuits they are so headlong , and violent in these courses , that they seeme no more to regard the good of our Country , or estate thereof , then the Spaniards themselues . For notwithstanding the manifest intentions of conquest , and subuersion by the Spaniards intended , yet do they so concurre with them , as whereas the Spaniard of himselfe seemeth slow , they pricke him on continually with plots & suggestions . Witnes Fa: Parsons actions concerning two seuerall Nauies which miscaried : in one of which Ma: Doctor Stillington tooke his death : of the other since he speaketh in a letter writ from Rome to Ma. Thomas Fitzherbert . Witnes this the late attempt in Ireland , in which Fa: Archer , an Irish Iesuite was a great actor . Who will not say now , that the Iesuits are much more to be blamed then any of the former woorthy persons , sith they desist not to prosecute that , which by some of them was afterwards disliked , & continue an offence begun , yea and vppon knowledge of the infinite deformitie thereof , into which the other saw not so deepely , as is probable .

Hauing thus giuen you some light , whereby you may trulie see into the drift & end of the foresaid Treatise of Important considerations , & the reasons we haue to purge our selues of such inexcusable practises , ( for the which hetherto wee haue all smarted ) and the causes wee haue , not onely to condemne those facts , and attempts , ( how woorthy soeuer the persons were , that dealt therein ) but also to exclaime against those , that still runne such disloiall races , and with all our power and might , not onely to disclaime , but also resist , and reueale such vndutifull practises , and indeuours , of her Maiesties disloyall , yet naturall subiects , be they what they may be , and of what condition , and quality they will be , ( for no condition , or qualitie may patronize disloyaltie : ) hauing I say , giuen you some light hereof , let vs now consider , what particuler obiections , ( or indeed barren exclamations ) this Father maketh against this Treatise .

We will let passe his vaine quipping at sundry : and seculer : beeing both scurrilous , and irreligious , in abusing the phrase of seculer priests vsed , and approued alwaies in Gods Church , with great reuerence to the order of priesthood , which he not without note of contempt , ioyneth with an allusion vnto secular minds and desires ; saying , not onely secular in order , but also in mind , hart , and desires , making the word secular in one sentence to be predicatum indifferently , and in like sence ( as a man would thinke ) vnto order , mind , harts , & desires , & so may a man say , ordo saecularis , mens saecularis , corda saecularia , desideria saecularia , in one , and the same prophane vnderstanding , which how irreligiously it soundeth from the mouth of a religious man , iudge you . Verily if he had been carefull of his penne , he might haue seuered the sentences at the least so , as the sence of the word might haue appeared diuers , and therein haue shewed a reuerent respect to priesthood , howsoeuer he had otherwise despised our persons . But let vs see I pray you , what he saith to our mislike of certaine Treatises , letters , and reports written , & made in diuers parts of the world .

All that hee sayth to this matter , is nothing but a shufling vp of graue , and worthy men of our nation , who haue writ or dealt in such affaires ; but whether therein they did wel or ill , hee neuer sheweth by any reason or proofe in the world . Onely he exclaimeth at vs , as enuious , and malicious , & such as haue sold our tongues to the common enemy . This kinde of shifting dealing is common , & ordinarie with this father , but how simple in the sight of wise men , I leaue you to consider . If it be a sufficient proofe , or excuse in euery particuler fact , viz. such a graue , and woorthy man did the like , what matter of fact may not be excused ? Did not S. Cyprian rebaptize such as had beene baptized before by heretiques ? Is it therefore vppon this ground a sufficient warrant to anie man to rebaptize such as are baptized by protestants ? Haue not diuers Saints , and Martirs , done diuers things not to be imitated of the generations following ? What good conclusion then is this ? Graue and worthy men haue writ , and dealt in this affaire , therefore it is good , conuenient , and lawfull . If such graue and worthy men had infallibilitie in their actions , ( which Saints in this life haue not had ) then such an infallible inference might be made , but not otherwise . Therefore good Fa: you should not onely haue produced the actions of such men , but also the reasons , and grounds of their actions , and proued them to haue been good and currant , by some conuincing reason and proofe : but this you neuer touch . Any shadow seemeth sufficient to you to bleere mens eyes , but this may not serue your turne .

Wise and graue men haue erred , and sometimes doe erre ; and yet remaine both wise , and graue . Wee are not Angels who intuitiuè see into the natures of things , what is conuenient , or inconuenient ; but we are men subiect to passion , and mutability , gathering things à posteriore , whereof follow manie errors , and imperfections in our actions . And heere-vppon it commeth , that posteriores cogitationes solent esse meliores ; and we often finde that by experience , which at the first we were ignorant of . A notable example heereof we haue in this very matter by Card : Allen , both a graue , and a wise man , ( as all the world knoweth . ) For he was somwhat faultie in the beginning in this kinde ( as by a certaine treatise wherein his finger was , is too too manifest , ) yet doe we well know , that in his latter time this worthy prelate was such an enemie vnto those proceedings , as he neuer could endure to heare of them , and much complained of the proceedings of some Iesuits therein , as many can witnes . Now then eyther Fa: Parsons must condemne the former actions of this worthie man as erroneous ( as well as we doe ) or else disclaime from his latter proceedings , being not in the same course with the first . Yet heere by the way I must tell you , that I verily think , that this worthy man was drawne vnto these proceedings , more by others , then of his owne nature ; and I haue no small reasons to induce me thereto : For first you know the generall expectance of the whole world , concerning the Armado of 1588. as well for the greatnes thereof , as the opinion of the Spaniards sincere pretence of Religion , which was nothing so . This conceite might draw the good Card : to be deceaued , as well as Pope Sixtus , who ( it is well knowne ) was drawne into a conceite thereof , and deceaued by them . Secondly , you are not ignorant , that euen against that pretended inuasion , he was aduanced vnto the honour , and dignity of a Prince , which might moue a right good man . And that he had an opinion of a moderate course to haue been taken by the Spaniards in that attempt ; his owne words in the said treatise doe plainly shew , saying , that he was made Card : for the sweeter managing of things in our Country after the conquest . Yet I cannot , but much wonder at this honest Fa: that in his marginall notes vpon this point , he was so blind , or so bold , as to cite Doctor Saunders works de visibili Monarchia , and de schismate Anglicano ; which works containe so many irreuerent speeches , and the divulging of such odious matters against her Maiestie , and her noble progenitors , as the vntruths of some , and the incertainty of others considered , could not but irritate the most Christian Cath: and patient Prince in the world . But because the things are not meete to be repeated , yea , are scandalous to proceede from an English man ; I referre my selfe for proofe heereof to euery man , that hath read the bookes . I would to God so worthy a man had not stayned his works , with such stuffe in these times , then would I dare to say , that he had beene the greatest honour to his Country , and the worthiest man of the world . The like I may say of Didamus veridicus : For it is well knowne , that although the man was most worthie , and one of the most famous Clarks of this age , yet was he very cholerick , and would sometimes bite more , then was conuenient . But as for Philopater and Perni , I scorne to think of such foolish stuffe , hatcht by this Fa : and Fa: Creswell . And this shall serue in aunswer of the first point , leauing euery man of indifferencie to iudge , whether such proceedings in matters of state , to the ruine , & ouerthrow of our Prince , and Country , daily practised by the Iesuits ( wherewith they are charged in the treatise of Important considerations ) be sufficiently iustified by the example of such like proceedings in other men , & whether there be any wrong done by vs , in disliking of such courses , in those worthy men , whereof some of themselues afterwards disliked .

Although I was purposed to haue omitted that point , because I thinke you shall shortly see a particuler Treatise therof , yet will I now say a word or two , briefely of it . And the rather I will so doe , in that I see Ma. Doctor Ely in his notes vpon the Apologie somewhat distasting the mention thereof , induced ( as I verily thinke ) by this onely respect , that our state , being onely Protestants , and in nothing consenting vnto the authoritie of the sea of Rome , therefore there should be no reason , why the Pope should in any thing ( necessarie , or conuenient for our Church ) stay , or respect the consent or permission of our Prince , notwithstanding the pretence of the said law of Premunire . But to satisfie in part Ma. Doctor , and whosoeuer els in this point , I thought good to add this consideration or motion , which drew mee , and others of vs , to make the matter more weighty , & vrgent , then it seemeth Ma. Doctor Ely , and others apprehend .

You must therefore vnderstand , that the chiefest occasion of this law at the first was , to preuent many mischiefes , & inconueniences , which happened heere in our Realme , by diuers priuiledges and indults , that were procured from Rome by surreption , vniust fauours , and false informations , by vertue of which indults and priuiledges , many contentions arose , aswell amongst the seculer Clergie , as the religious , yea often times to the spilling of blood . To auoyde these so great inconueniences , our Cath: Kings , with the free and full consent of all the Clergie , and temporalty , enacted that no such graunt , procured from Rome , should be executed within the dominions of England , vppon the penalties specified in the said statute , vntill the Kings consent thereto were first obtayned .

Now then to the purpose , if his holines had instituted any vsuall authoritie , heeretofore accepted by our Kings & Clergie , and in vse in Cath: times amongst vs , and by the ordinary course of law ( to wit by election or otherwise ) ex plenitudine potestatis , ( so that we had had sufficient notice thereof , to bind vs to obedience ) it may be said , that heerein the offence vnto the Cath: law of premunire , had been onely a materiall offence , if any at all , because we may iudge all Princes to be bound in conscience , to become Cath: and to accept , and concurre with such ordinances of his Holinesse , as are vsuall , or necessary for the vpholding of the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie of Christes church . As now her Maiestie , being a Protestant , and so perswaded in conscience , is bound to concur & accept of such Ecclesiasticall subordination , as is both vsuall and necessary for the preseruing of the Protestants Church , and Clergie . But to accept and admit of an extrauagant iurisdiction , vnusuall not only in the Church of England , but also in the whole church of Christ , from the tyme of Christ himselfe vnto these dayes , and such an one , as was altogether vnnecessary for our Church , yea very hurtful both to our poore afflicted Cath: and state also , ( as wee will shew at large hereafter , if occasion be offered ) could not ( in my opinion ) but draw after it the penalties of the law aforesaid , & iustly . For if that law were iust , when it was first instituted , it not beeing abrogated , is still iust , and in force .

Well then , this authoritie of the Archpriest being such an exorbitant , vnusuall , and inconuenient iurisdiction , & therefore such an one as could not in conscience bind any Catho : Prince to admit thereof , or consent thereto ( were the times Catholick ) I doe not see why the same reason doth not hold now with vs in these times , and how any man can be excused from the penaltie of that law , in admitting an externall iurisdiction without the knowledge of theyr Prince , and against her consent , vnto which if shee were a Catholick , shee were not bound to consent , but contrariwise to repugne . This I say is wilfully , without all reason or necessity , to contemne her princely prerogatiue , and therfore no excuse of religion , conscience , or the like ▪ can ( in my conceit ) free any man , thus accepting of this authority at the first , but meere ignorance of the law , and case which I thinke was invincible in most .

The third point of the argument of this worke of Important considerations , is so falsly & so maliciously related by him , that ( belieue me ) it doth not a little amaze me , to consider so strange boldnes in a man of his coate . First hee saith , that in the said booke we affirme : that neither the Pope , nor any other Ecclesiasticall power , hath authority to restraine , punish , or represse , by way of force , or armes immediatly , or by others , any christian temporall Prince whatsoeuer , for anie delict of heresie , Apostasie , impugnation of Christian fayth , extirpation of religion , or other crime whatsoeuer , though neuer so much danger , or damage should ensue by his default to the Common wealth , or the rest of Christendome . If any liuing man vnder heauen ( reading the aforesaid discourse ) doe finde any such speech , as this heere deliuered by this vnhonest Iesuit , let all that hee hath said , be belieued against vs : yea I say moreouer , if any man of indifferencie , do gather any such meaning , or intention in the foresaid Treatise directly , or indirectly deliuered , by any phrase or sentence whatsoeuer , I will say , what he will haue me . How wicked , and spightfull a collection then this of Father Parsons is , Iudge you .

All that is said to this purpose in that Treatise , is this , in the 37. page . Secondly , we doe acknowledge by our learning , ( secluding all Machiauilian Maximes ) that Ecclesiasticall persons , by vertue of their calling , are onely to meddle with praying , preaching , and administring the Sacraments , and such other like spirituall functions , and not to studie how to murder Princes , nor to licitate kingdoms , nor to intrude themselues into matters of state , successions , and inuasions , as Frier George did in Pannonia , to the vtter ruine of that beautifull Realme . Let any man of reason say , whether this be not a most Catholick and true discourse , or whether out of this , any such irreligious paradox ( as fa : Parsons affirmeth ) may iustly be deduced . And note here by the way , that all this speech is of inferior Ecclesiasticall persons , not of the Pope , for that is afterward touched precisely by it selfe .

Note also that it is said , that Ecclesiasticall persons , by vertue of theyr calling , that is , as they are persons spirituall , are onely to meddle with praying , preaching , and administring of the Sacraments . &c. Which is so true a Position , and Catholick , as no Catholick dare to denie it , the institution therof from Christ himselfe beeing to no other end . Yet you must vnderstand , that many times ecclesiasticall vocation , is also ioyned with temporall iurisdiction , as now in the Popedome , & in diuers Bishopricks in Germanie , and some heere in England , if I be not deceaued . We doe not denie , but such ecclesiastical persons as they , being also temporall Princes , may execute temporall lawes , and punish etiam quo ad vitam , et necem , theyr subiects , and those that liue vnder theyr gouernment : but as he is a Bishop or spirituall person , hee cannot muster souldiers , beare armes , or march against his enemies in the field . But you perhaps will say then , that an Ecclesiasticall person may not defend his right by force , when otherwise he cannot , & by that meanes he shall be subiect to all incursions of thieues , murtherers , & other barbarous and wicked people . To this I aunswer , that as he is a man , and therewith enioying all the priuiledges of the law of nature , hee may defend himselfe in such cases , not defensoriè onely , but also offensiué , not onely by bare resisting , but euen by striking , wounding , slaying , &c. And heereupon he may take armes in his own , or countries defence : ( such I meane as in their precincts haue absolute authority ) but this is not as he is an ecclesiasticall person , but as he is a ciuill Magistrate , and enioyeth the freedom of the law of nature , which he looseth not by beeing ecclesiasticall , seculer , or religious . And vppon these grounds oftentimes haue Religious men defended their houses , and Monasteries with armes , and iustly .

But that ecclesiasticall persons , as they are ecclesiasticall , should goe about to reduce either Pagans , Turkes , or hereticks by force , and dint of sword , by poysoning , or murdering of Princes , by solliciting rebellions , or inuasions , to the destruction of their Prince or country ▪ leauing thereby the ordinarie meanes of preaching , and teaching , with sufferings , and bloodsheddings commaunded by Christ , and by himselfe , and his disciples , and all former Christians practized , is scandalous , not religious , Pagan like , & not Christian like . Could not Christ ( thinke you ) haue enforced the Iewes to the Gospell , hauing so many legions of Angels at his commaunde ? Were not the Iewes as much bound to harken vnto him , and follow his doctrine , as the Protestants , or any other can be to vs ? Or can wee thinke that Christ did not commaund the best way , when he sayd vnto his disciples , euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate euangelium omni creaturae : qui crediderit , et baptizatus fuerit , saluus erit , qui veró non crediderit , condemnabitur ? Did he not hereby leaue it to the liberty , and freedome of the hearers , whether they would beleeue , or not ? Or did he commaund them to murder or take weapons against such , as would not beleeue them ? or could hee not haue subdued the whole world by force of armes , vnto the Gospell , if hee would ? If then Christ gaue these directions , why should we seeke new stratagems for conuersions of countries ? But you will say vnto mee , that our Protestants haue beene of the Church , that they are Christians , & by their baptisme borne true subiects vnto Christes church , and afterwards are revolted from theyr due obedience , which they owe vnto her : wherefore , they may be constrained vnto their obedience againe as well , as any naturall subiect rebelling from his naturall Prince vnto his temporall obedience . To this I aunswer , first , that the case is not all one : for why , the obedience of a subiect to his temporall Prince , consisteth onely in the will , which is in euery mans power within himselfe , but the obedience of euery Christian catho : to Gods church , consisteth as well in the vnderstanding as the wil , and chiefly in the vnderstanding , which ought to direct the will .

Now I thinke all men know , that the vnderstanding of a man cannot be forced by any , to this , or that ; but as it is informed and conuinced by reason . For who is he that can enforce his vnderstanding to iudge it to be midnight , and extreame darknes , when the Sun shineth at noone-time of the day ? Whereuppon it followeth , that there is more reason , & lesse difficultie for a temporall Prince to enforce his subiects to temporall obedience , then for the Church by temporall force to constraine Countries and kingdoms vnto the fayth . But you will againe obiect , that by the same reason , a Catho : Prince , or Bishop in his owne absolute dominion , or soueraigntie , may not , by the force of the lawes of the Church , or state , enforce any subiect to liue a Cath: but hee may follow what religion he list ; which would breed both confusion in the Church , and common-wealth quickly . To this I say , that there are two things to be considered in this case ; the first is his religion , the second is his example , whereby there ariseth not onely danger , & hurt vnto the Church , & sound members thereof , but also damage vnto the setled Common-wealth , and preiudice vnto the Prince in his quiet estate , in that by one , or two particuler peeuish mens example , deuision and strife may arise in his Common-wealth , to the ruine or subuersion thereof by inward mutinies , and dissention , which ordinarily followeth nouelties , and innouations . For the first part , which is his difformity in fayth and religion , the Clergie , or Bishop , hath to looke vnto it , and reforme it if he can ; if hee cannot , but findeth him obstinate in his opinions , he executeth the spirituall law vpon him , by the sword of excommunication , whereby hee is spiritually slaine and cut off from Christes flock . Which if hee still continue , then doth the Church iudge him not onely withered in the branch , but also dead in the roote , and therefore as a dead tree , deliuereth him vp vnto the seculer power , to execute law & iustice vppon him . Where note , that the Church taketh not away his life , but contrariwise , deliuering him vp vnto the seculer power , intreateth for him : and then doth the Prince , or seculer Magistrate , execute the sentence of death vppon him , as a person dangerous to the state of his Realme , and his other good and loyall subiects for the reasons aboue-said .

These kinde of proceedings in Gods church , shew how far shee hath euer been from so violent courses , as to plant religion , and fayth , by blood ; and that vnto a Clergie person , as he is a Clergie person , the power of life and death belongeth not ; neither doe such proceedings in deede imitate the clemencie of Christ , whom the Church and Clergie ( framed vnto him ) should imitate . Neither did the Bishops in the primitiue church , put to death such hereticks , as fell from theyr fayth , and taught false doctrine , ( as they might haue doone many times , no doubt , especially if priuate murmurings in such cases had beene tolerable . )

S. Bernard , a religious man , dealing with S. William , Duke of Aquitaine , ( a great persecuter of gods people at that time , did not seeke to poyson , or murder him secretly , to rid the world of him , and yet hee had him priuately for some time together in his Monasterie , where hee might with great facility haue done it : neither did he seeke to suggest practises against him in his owne country , or invasions from the King of Fraunce , or other Princes adioyning , but to win him by wholsome instructions , spirituall conferences , and the like . Neither did the Pope at that time seeke his subuersion , but his reformation , sending perswasiue messages vnto him to desist , yea and embassages by the said holy Saint Bernard , to moue him to better courses : and by these kind & wholsome means praying continually for his conuersion with patience , and expectance , they won him from a persecuter , and a very wicked man , to become the rarest penitent , and strangest paterne of austerity in the world . Whereby of a vessell of ignominie and reproch , he became a vessel of glory , and of a bad man , a Saint . Why should wee not haue delt so with our prince , and state , by prayers and supplications , if they had beene neuer such cruell persecuters , which ( all occasions that haue beene giuen them beeing well considered ) wee cannot iustly affirme , who knoweth whether God by such prayers , and meanes , would not haue conuerted their harts to other courses , sith the harts of Kings are in the hands of God .

But saith Fa: Parsons , this paradox tasteth of Lutheranisme & Anabaptisme . We answer , that by Gods grace , we are as far off from either Luthers , or the Anabaptists doctrine , as hee , or any of his Societie . Neither doe we either denie externall force , or ciuill Magistrate , or dispute ( as Martin Luther is said to haue done ) to proue that it is not lawfull to wage warre against the Turk . We haue not in all this discourse once gone about to affirme , much lesse to proue , that any one king may not vpon iust causes , make warre against another . Nay , we did neuer say , that cause might not be giuen of such iust warre euen in some case of religion : but leaue that as a matter not pertinent to be handled of vs at this time . This onely wee haue said , and doe say , that religious men or priests , haue not to doe with kingdoms , and those of our owne Nation , which haue dealt in such affaires against their prince , and country ▪ we do therein condemne their actions , and disclaime from them , as vndutifull and vnpleasant to all true English natures . And we wish also with all our harts , that no Pope , or other Clergie person , had euer medled therein to exasperate our prince & state against vs at home . Yet if we had generally kept our fingers from such matters , howsoeuer they had been attempted by forrainers , wee are perswaded , that the wisedome of our prince , and state , would not haue imputed their actions vnto vs , in whom wee could not haue had so much interest , as to infringe either their wils or indeuours . But it beeing otherwise too euident , that some haue intermedled in such matters ( though sore against our wills ) we can doe no lesse , but acknowledge it to be a fault , and woorthy of punishment : humbly prostrating our petitions at the feete of her Maiesty , that it will please her to make distinction of the innocent , and such as neuer haue offended in this kinde , from those , that haue intangled themselues in such monstrous , and vnnaturall attempts ; that poore harmelesse innocents , and such as with their soules loue her person , and with their blood are ready to defend her estate , and their countrey , ( as I am perswaded all the Catholicks in England are , which remaine vntainted with Iesuitisme ) may not perish for the offences of others .

Another falshood of this Fa : is in relating another place in the 38 page of the aforesaid Treatise of Important considerations , which he thus reporteth , viz. The word of the spirit , and not the sword of the flesh , or any arme of man , is that which giueth life , and beautie to the Cath: Church , and that the promise made to Saint Peter , is a sure , and sufficient ground to defend Catholick religion without armes . Thus he relateth our words , and then exclaimeth against the paradox forsooth . How sincerely & truly he setteth our words downe , you shall see , and thereby iudge of his honestie . Our words are no other then these .

The Catholicke fayth , for her stabilitie and continuance , hath no neede of trecherie , or rebellion . The promise made to S. Peter is her sure ground , and is more dishonoured with treasons , & wicked policies of carnall men , then any way furthered or aduaunced . The word of the spirit , and not the sword of the flesh , or any arme of man is that , which giueth life or beautie to the Cath: Church . Confer I beseech you , this speech deliuered as it was by vs , & as Fa: Parsons relateth it , and see whether he hath plaied the part of a faithfull and honest relator . First therefore before we enter into his false dealings herein , it is most euident in the iudgement of wise men , that armes , & weapons neuer beautifie Gods Church , or the Catholick faith , howsoeuer they may be necessary or conuenient , sometimes to defend the same from incursions of aduersaries , or oppressions of Infidels , Turks , or Hereticks , as in some sort is before expressed . For all beauty of the Catho : Church , consisteth in vnitie , and consent of doctrine , true , and reuerend administration of Sacraments , true , and sincere preaching of Gods word , holy obseruations of the rights , and ceremonies thereof , and the like . In these consist the beauty of the Catho : Church , and Religion , and not in any arme of man , or sword of flesh , as all men I think will confesse . But see now his fidelity . In the place of this sentence , set : the promise made to S. Peter , is her sure ground , and is more dishonoured with treasons , &c. He putteth downe these words : The promise made to S. Peter , is a sure , & sufficient ground to defend Catho : Religion without armes . Who would thinke a religious man would deale so falsly in relating one poore sentence ? verily if he were not a Iesuit , I would think it impossible . What vnconscionable dealing is it in him to add vnto our words ( sufficient ) therby to make apparance , as though we excluded all meanes else of preseruation of Gods Church , but onely relying vpon that promise to S. Peter , without any other indeauours ? Would he haue the world to think vs so simple , as that we doe not know , that God vseth secondarie meanes , and mens particuler indeauours , both for the aduancement of his Church , as also the continuance thereof , as well as he did for the Sinagogue of the Iewes ? Or will hee make it a necessary consequent , because we exclude treasons , and wicked policies of carnall men : therefore we exclude all honest , iust , and lawfull meanes of defending , or propagating of Gods cause ? How doth this follow , vnlesse there be no other meanes , but by treasons , and wicked policies , which none but wicked persons will affirme , and such as will make treasons , and wicked policies acceptable sacrifices vnto Christ ? as though God delighted in wickednes , or had neede of such meanes , to defend what he hath erected in manu forti , et brachio excelso : No , no ; wee say further , to confirme our former proposition , that although God doth vse second causes in diuers his works , and the helpe , or concurrence of man in the aduauncing of his Church , yet is his promise made to S. Peter so sure a ground , that if it were possible , that all mens indeauours should surcease , yet should not his Church faile . Ipse enim dixit , for he hath said , it shall not faile , nor hell gates preuaile against it . And further wee affirme to strengthen , and stablish the second part , that treasons , and wicked policies of men , are so farre from aduauncing Gods cause , that both he , and his cause are much disgraced : he dishonoured , and his cause much hindered thereby . Now let Fa: Parsons preferre these propositions to the Inquisition , and we will be defendants , and yet in all things submit our selues , actions , and words , vnto the iudgements of Christes spouse , as willingly , and readily as any Iesuit , or Christian else ( by Gods grace ) in the world .

Furthermore , also he foysteth these words in the taile of our sentence , ( to defend Catho : Religion without armes ) which are his owne additions , and no words of ours . These vnfaithfull dealings cannot hold out : God will not be mocked with his iuglings , and shiftings ; truth will be seene doe , what Fa: Parsons can doe , with all his cunning shifts . To conclude therefore vpon the ground layed , we say againe , and with as great confidence affirme as before ; that all arguments brought to the contrary of this we haue said , whether by the Iesuits , or any other disloyall subiect , they be mere vntrue Sophistications , and therefore not to be beleeued . And as for the labour which Fa: Parsons hath bestowed , in citing of authors , hee hath done , but as Ma: Lyster did in his Libell of schisme , labour about a matter not in controuersie , alwayes flying the true point of difference betwixt vs . For in all the worke of Important considerations , the Popes indirect authority in temporalibus is not called in question , nor any one word spoken thereof ; neither is the power of deposing Princes examined or medled with-all , onely therein we complaine of treasonable practises , and attempts against our Prince , and state , by some of her disloyall subiects , & of false subordinations , and informations to his Holines ; whereby some Popes haue been drawne to consent , and enter into such inconuenient courses . And what we speake of resisting the Pope , is not in respect of his ecclesiasticall authority ( whereof we onely speake , ) but of hostile inuasion , against which to defend our selues , and Country , we are taught by the very law of nature , without respect of person , or intention of the Inuader , as I shall shew manifestly in the aunswer to that poynt obiected . By this you may see , whether the reasons , and authorities alledged by Fa: Parsons , be not sophistications , and false arguments ( as he vrgeth them , and draweth conclusions from them , ) in that he proceedeth vpon a false ground , and maketh therevpon vntrue illations . Because forsooth the Pope hath indirectam potestatem etiam in temporalibus ( according to the common opinion , ) that is , such power as is necessary for the reformation of the subiects of Christes Church ; therefore if he goe about to transferre gentem in gentem , ( which is onely a power belonging vnto almighty God ) or to inuade with weapons in hostile manner , he is not to be resisted . This is the conclusion he would , and must inferre vpon the reasons , and authorities alledged by him ; or else he proueth nothing against vs . Which conclusion how false , and absurd it is , both against the law of Nature , and common practise of the world , I leaue euery man of wit , and wisedom to iudge .

Now whereas in the 4. point , he vrgeth against vs these words , that if the Pope should come in person with an Armie , where we are , vnder pretence to establish catholick Religion by force : we would oppose our selues against him , and spend the best blood in our bodies in that quarrell , &c. and termeth it a braue , and resolute protestation against the Pope . This fellow was ashamed to relate , what we had spoken concerning our obedience , and loue to the Sea Apostolick immediatly before , which was , that if eyther his Holines should come in person , or send some Damianus or Augustine , &c. we would lye at his , or their feete ▪ and defend with them the Catholicke fayth by sacred Scripture , and authority of the Church , though it cost vs our liues . This saying ( which cannot but shew our sincerity towards Gods Church , and Vicar generall to all charitable men ) this good Fa: left out of purpose , snatching onely at our heeles like a Cur , and taking the ends of speeches to comment vpon at his pleasure .

But to shew you that Fa : Parsons cunning wit cannot infringe our protestation ( as hee termeth it ) of resisting the Pope , if he come with Armes to inuade , though with pretence of Religion ; you shall vnderstand first , that ( as wee haue often said ) euery man is bound by the law of Nature , to defend his life , his Country , and freedome of both . Vpon which irrefragable ground , I doe inferre this sequell : that if any man in the world , vnder what pretence so euer , doe enter the bounds of my Country , with fire , and sword in hostile manner , ( by which of necessity , spoile of my Country , subuersion of the state , oppression of Innocents , losse of my life , or friends will ensue ) I am not onely patronized therein to defend my selfe , friends , and Country , opposing my selfe against such euils , but also am bound thereto . Neither therein can I iustly be said to resist , or impugne the Catho : Religion , or defend heresie , in that I onely stand directly for that , which the law of nature bindeth me vnto . And if any hinderance thereby of Cath: Religion should follow , it were not to be imputed vnto me , not intending any such impeachment , or damage to Gods Church , nor doing any act , which of it selfe tendeth to any such end .

Secondly , it is well knowne vnto me , that Christ hath left other meanes , by preaching , teaching , and good example of life , for the conuersion of Infidels , Hereticks , or sinners , and to me it is not knowne , that Christes will is , that my Countrey shall be conuerted by the sword , and not by his word , and such other holy meanes : Yea , it rather appeareth vnto me , that our relapsed Country is to be conuerted by the way , and meanes that Christ himselfe , and his Apostles vsed , and not by such bloody , and desperate courses . Therefore I may , and am bound , rather to cleaue vnto that meane , then to any other extreame , or vnnaturall enterprises . Thirdly , we see by practise , that GOD hath euer disfauoured such attempts , to the admirable preseruation both of her Maiestie , and our Country , which may giue vs iust cause to think , that God is not pleased with such violent courses .

Fourthly , whatsoeuer cause may be in a forrainer , or in the Pope himselfe to impugne , or inuade our country , which may make his quarrell iust , and lawfull on his part , yet am not I to take notice thereof . Yea , though the cause were euidently iust in my knowledge , and conscience , yet I am not bound to leaue my countrey , and assist him . For the common good of my country , and weale thereof , is to be preferred before the particuler right of any person whatsoeuer . And hereupon it falleth out , that many times the inuader or oppugner , hath iust cause to inuade with armes , and therein doth no iniustice ; and yet for all that , on the contrarie side , the defendants may iustly by force of armes keepe , & defend themselues , and countrey , from such hostile incursions , their liberties and country beeing more deere vnto them , then the righting of any particuler parson .

For if a priuate person , possessing goods or lands in controuersie , be not bound in conscience to forsake them , and deliuer them vp vnto the owners ( who by sentence of law hath recouered them ) vntill such time as by execution of the ciuill Magistrats or sherieffe , the possession thereof be giuen from him , what reason is there that a whole country , wherein alwaies are many innocents , not guilty of any iust cause of such oppressions , should yeeld vp their rights , and become slaues and vassalles to forrainers , loosing the rights and priuiledges of their country ?

But you will say vnto me , that neyther the Pope is a forrayner in respect of his authority , and dominion , extending ouer the whole world , neither is this cause , beeing Catholicke religion , his particuler right , but the right , which ought to be in euery creature . To the first I aunswer , that notwithstanding that the Pope , according to his spirituall authority , might be said to be no forrainer , yet if he come as an Inuader , vnder what pretence soeuer , hee may be said to vs a forrayner , in that his power consisteth of forrainers , and cruell souldiers , by whose villanie , many miseries and oppressions , were sure to light vppon innocents , and vtter spoyle vpon our whole country . Neyther were I bound to belieue the Pope , though hee should affirme the contrary ; because the wills of souldiers , ( by whom such villanies and oppressions would be committed ) could not be in his power . And therefore I say , that if the Pope could bring Christ with him in person , or an army of Angels , whereby we might be assured , that reformation should follow without oppressions , or extreame miseries and calamities : then we might take part with him : but if he come with an armie of men , ( and such men as souldiers are , whom all villanies follow ) he must not blame vs , if to auoyd such euils , we sticke to the law of nature , and defend our selues , our Prince , and country . And heereupon it is , that we say wee be perswaded , that priests of what order soeuer , ought not by force of armes , to plant or water the Catholick faith , but in spiritu lenitatis , et mansuetudinis , to propagate and defend it : considering the inconueniences , which follow armes , and inuasions , and the little fruit , that commeth thereof , or the small number of Catholicks that arise thereby , so little good example of vertue beeing giuen by souldiers , especially Spaniards . Yet by the way I may not omit to note againe Father Pars : his perfidious dealing , in displacing of the word defend , saying , that no priests ought to plant , water , or defend , which followeth not in our sentence . For a man may by armes somtimes defend a thing got , which by armes he could not iustlie get .

As for example , Munks or religious men , may not get themselues Monasteries or lands by force of armes , but hauing iustly got them otherwise , and hauing an absolute authoritie within their precincts , they may by force keepe them from such forrainers , as vniustly inuade them , if otherwise they cannot . So may and ought religious men , and priests , to defend catholick countries from the incursions of the Turke , Infidels , or hereticks , as oft times they haue done . But it followeth not therfore , that they may goe into the countreys of Infidels in hostile manner with armes , onely to plant the catholick faith by force . But this is after the old fashion of Fa: Parsons iust dealings .

I could heere vrge him with an obiection , which would please him but a little ; to wit , that if euery man be bound to assist the Pope , inuading as he would haue him , it is for that the cause he pretendeth is iust . And then doe I say secundum magis , et minus , that not onely the Pope , but euery Prince , or other person , comming with force of Armes into any Countrey is to be receaued , and assisted by the inhabitants , and subiects of the Country , if his cause be knowne to be iust vnder payne of deadly sinne . Which if it be true , why then did not his great Maiestie of Spayne , in Paule the fourths time , restore Naples vnto the sea of Rome , when as Caraff inuaded the same with force of armes ? The world will say , and the Pope himselfe will affirme , that he hath more right thereto , then the Spaniard : how chaunced it then that hee kept it by force from the Pope , & still doth ? See what confusion would follow Fa: Parsons doctrine .

But he will say , that religion is not onely a matter of iustice , but also of necessity , binding all men thereunto . To this I aunswer , that though it be a thing of necessity , yet is not this necessity of force , or compulsion , but vpon election , as Christ left it : and euery man hath in his free will , whether hee will accept of Gods grace offered , or no. Neither can any law , or necessity in the world , contradict or impeach the law of nature , borne with man , and alwaies remaining in him .

To the 5. poynt obiected by Fa: Parsons , wee haue said sufficient already , for our honest and lawfull excuse , in blaming or condemning of some actions , done by worthy men , not therby defaming , or condemning such persons , but such acts , as errors , in these worthy persons . Which is not ( as hee falsly affirmeth ) to cast any fault vpon any worthy person or Martyr , or to defame them in any sort : sith the facts imputed vnto them , were too too well knowne vnto the state , and too publique vnto the world . Whereby wee were but constrained to purge our selues , as guiltlesse of any such matter ; rather choosing that the fault that was , should fall vpon particuler men , dealers therein , and so knowne to be to the world , then vpon the whole company of innocent priests , & Cath: which was ( I thinke ) but according to the rules both of iustice and charity .

And whereas it is sayd , that if some of vs had beene of the counsell , and knowing as much as we doe know , wee should haue giuen our consents to straight lawes , for the suppressing , and preuenting of such wicked designements ; you must vnderstand , that this is deliuered but as the particuler speech of some few , and not of all in generall ( as Fa: Parsons falsly setteth downe . ) Neither did we say , that we would haue giuen our consents to that , which hath beene done against Catho : as he maliciously peruerteth our words , but onely to some straight lawes , for the suppressing and preuenting of such wicked designments . Which I thinke any good Common-wealths man in the world , of what religion soeuer , would haue done , and could haue done no lesse , then haue yeelded , and giuen consent to make some straight lawes for preuenting the ruine , and subuersion of his prince and country , vnlesse he had beene perfidious vnto his prince , and trayterous to his country .

But by your leaue Fa: Parsons , these lawes should haue haue been made to haue brideled such good fellowes , as your selfe , and others , that haue dealt so perfidiously with theyr prince and countrey , and not generally , against all priests and Catholicks . And we perswade our selues , they had not been made so generall , if her Maiestie , and the state , had seene into the rootes of such proceedings , and knowne that they had growne only from some few particuler persons , such as your selfe , and not from the body or most part of priests , and Catholicks . Which the state could not see into & discerne from the beginning , beeing ignorant of the distinction which ought to be made betweene vs and your fellowes : and therfore is not so much to be cried out against , and defamed for tyrannie ( this ignorance considered ) as by you her highnesse , her lawes , and gouernment haue beene traduced : making your selues thereby , and by others , the wicked enterprises , the principall , and chiefe cause of all such straight , and bloodie lawes . But rather is her Maiestie , and the state to be excused , and implored for more pitty and compassion towards vs for the time to com : sith they now see farther into the true rootes , springs , and causes , from whence , and from whom such attempts haue come .

Neither is Fa: Parsons recapitulation of some lawes made , and some executed before their comming into England , a sufficient excuse ; because it is well known that her Maiestie , and the state , was diuers times ( as by the Important considerations you may see ) irritated by sundry vndutifull attempts of her subiects , and forrainers together , before shee made anie bloody law at all . And there are many pregnant presumptions , that the Iesuits fingers were medling in some , or most of them . For there be Priests , who haue heard Fa: Parsons ( when they were Scholers in Rome ) make set Lectures for a whole Lent , ( as I remember ) of all matters , which had happened from her Maiesties beginning of her raigne : In the discourse whereof he was so ready , and could descend so farre into particuler plots , and intentions of plots , which neuer came to passe , and were vnknowne to her Maiestie , and the state , ( as in the practise concerning the Earle of Northumberland , and the like ) that you would sweare , he or his , had been in the bosome of euery such plot , and deuise .

To the sixt , and last point brought in preposterously , as he commonly vseth to doe , taking his bits by snatches heere and there to make vp his gallymaufrey , it deserueth no other aunswer , then hath already beene giuen , it being no other , but a fond exaggerating of his old common points , with exclamation , and bitter words ; without reason , or proofe of any one absurdity , or vniust vntruth deliuered by vs . Which argueth his spirit to be more fraught with spite , then power , or ability . We will not aske him , which of the seauen deuils rayleth , and biteth with so many bitter words , and false calumniation vniustly , and vntruly against vs , but hartily pray God to deliuer him from all incursions of the deuill , and all Atheisme , and Machiauelisme , that he may sincerely see , how he hath offended God by his plots , and practises in abusing his poore afflicted Church in our Country , and setting dissension , and diuision in his Clergy , for the compassing of his policies , and designes , which so long as he , and his shal practise , we cannot but still intreate Cath: to forbeare the sending of their children vnto the schooles , where such maisters , as Fa: Parsons , and his associates , shall be teachers , and gouernours : but rather to send them to other Vniuersities abroad in other Countries , vntill God shall prouide better for vs . And thus we will end our aunswer , vnto the first Chapter , in which we haue beene ouer long , and tedious , because of the diuersitie of matters hudled vp therein by Fa: Parsons , after his accustomed manner , desiring the Reader to beare with vs therein , in that we were willing to open some things more largely , that such as were ignorant , or not so well acquainted with these our affaires , and the true causes of them , might see the better into the very grounds of all , which being so largely deliuered in this first chapter , we shall with more facility , and more briefly passe ouer the rest that followeth : alwayes ( as occasion happeneth ) referring you to what is deliuered at large in this first treatise .