A stay against straying. Or An answer to a treatise intituled: The lavvfulnes of hearing the ministers of the Church of England. By John Robinson. Wherein is proved the contrarie, viz: The unlawfulnes of hearing the ministers of all false Churches. By John Canne. Canne, John, d. 1667? This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A17914 of text S115149 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 4575). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 435 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 78 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A17914 STC 4575 ESTC S115149 99850368 99850368 15565 2240877940

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A17914) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 15565) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1511:05) A stay against straying. Or An answer to a treatise intituled: The lavvfulnes of hearing the ministers of the Church of England. By John Robinson. Wherein is proved the contrarie, viz: The unlawfulnes of hearing the ministers of all false Churches. By John Canne. Canne, John, d. 1667? [8], 142 [i.e. 140] p. Richt Right Press], [Amsterdam : Printed in the yeare 1639. Place of publication and printer from STC. Pages 137, 138 missing in number only; text unaffected. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Robinson, John, 1575?-1625. -- Treatise of the lawfulnes of hearing of the ministers in the Church of England. eebo A stay against straying. Or An answer to a treatise, intituled: The lavvfulnes of hearing the ministers of the Church of England. By John Robinson. Wh Canne, John, 1639 156 77800 436 0 0 0 0 0 56.04 D The rate of 56.04 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-06 Assigned for keying and markup 2006-06 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-05 Sampled and proofread 2007-05 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

A Stay against Straying .

OR , An Ans●●● to a Treatise , intituled : The La●fulnes of hearing the Ministers of the Church of England .

By JOHN ROBINSON .

Wherein , Is proved the contrarie , viz. The unlawfulnes of hearing the Ministers of all false Churches . By JOHN CANNE .

ESA. 57. 14. And he shall say 〈◊〉 ye up 〈…〉 prepare the way , take up the 〈…〉 way of my people .
coat of arms or blazon

Printed in the Yeare 1639.

ERRATA .

P. 2 , l. 1. read they . l. 39. the wanting . P. 5 , l. 28 , r. Calfes . P. 11 , l. 38 , r. Ministry . P. 52 , l. 6 , r. doer . P. 57 , l. 25 , r. Claidon . P. 59 , l. 11 , r. resorted . P. 83 , l. 16 , r. follie . P. 86 , l. 2 , r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 P. 88 , l. 30 , r. dicit . P. 120 , l. 2 , r. streathned .

For other faults , if thou findest any , I desire that thy love may be such as to amend them thy selfe .

To all such as desire to receive and follow the truth in Love , and with holines ; The feeling assurance of life and peace , be wished in Iesus Christ . Men Fathers and Brethren :

WHAT the Lord saith , touching the revealing of the Man of sinne , 2 Thes. 2 , 8. and the consuming of him by the brightnes of Christs comming : We may see ( blessed be God for it ) now accomplished in a great measure . For whereas in times past , many of the Professors , have used both their tongues and pennes , to plead for their Parish-Churches , Ministerie and Worshipp ; They now ( beeing of sounder mindes , and better informed ) let those things fall : Insomuch , as there are few ( if any ) except Formalists and Familists ( virtutem qui verba putant , ut lucum ligna , as Horace speaketh ) and men of corrupt minds , who suppose that gaine is godlines ; That will appeare in the defence thereof . So that in likelyhood , for the time to come , there wil be little use , for any man , to write any more , against that Church-state , Minister ie , Worship & Government , seeing the falsnes thereof , is now seene and acknowledged , of the honester and better sort every where .

Notwithstanding as Pharoah used sundry meanes , to stay Israell still in Egypt , after he saw them desirous to depart ▪ So doth Satan labour what hee can , to hold Gods people in spirituall thraldome , after he perceives they are willing to obey Gods call , and come out of it .

And that he may bring to passe what he desireth , hee useth most effectuall delusions & deep deceits : Well knowing that the snares which he laid in our forefathers blind and ignorant dayes , are now out of date , and will not serve the turne , to beguile many people withall ; But he must more transforme himselfe into an Angell of Light ; I say , use more artificiall and craftie devises , then formerly he hath done .

It is said of Praxiteles * * Clemen : Alex ●in protrept . the Painter , that hee made the sillie people worship the Image of his strumper , under the title and pretence of Venus . Now sure I am , in those dayes , there are some , who under the name of Gods worship , doe cause many people to worship Satan and Antichrist ; And that men may the easier and sooner be perswaded to it ; they set forth their lies and vanities in as plausible & faire away as can be .

What man would seeme to deale so plainly as a Iugter : Hee will strike up his sleeves and make bare his armes , and open his hands and fingers , and lay all things before thee , and bid thee behold , and thou wouldst thinke him to be a man of a faire carriage , and not imagine thou couldst possiblie be deceived ; And yet indeed , his whole skill and seeking , is nothing else but to deceive , and the more simplie and plainly he would seeme to deale , the sooner and easier he doth beguile thee . For thou shalt thinke thou seest all , and seest nothing ; Feelest it senceablie with thy fingers , holdest it fast , canst not loose it , and yet shall open thy hand and finde nothing .

The passages of some men , in points of Religion , are carried much after such a sort : For one would thinke , to heare the smoothnes of their tale , and what integritie and plainnes they doe professe ; That it is all Gospell they speake , and that their cause , is cleare , and nothing is to be said to the contrarie : Notwithstanding when another comes forth , and replies against them , rips up their tale , weighs their reasons , discloseth the errour and weaknes of their pleading . Men wonder at their owne simplicitie and ignorance , and that ever they should be so fond as to beleeve them . But seeing I am now to deale only in the point of hearing of false Ministers : I will not therefore step out of the beaten way to take in any by-discourse ; Only I thinke good to certifie , that I marvaile , that such men who walke not as we doe in Church-way , but thinke us to censorious and over just : Why they doe not publickly answer our grounds and arguments published to the world , and so prove their new Principles in as faire and open a way ; that either we may come to them , finding them to walke more agreeable to the Scriptures , or shew our reasons to the contrarie .

For the matter here in controuersie : That the Reader may profit the more by it , there are 5 things , which J desire him to doe . 1. When thou settest thy selfe to read , set thy selfe as in Gods presence , looke on with a single and impartiall eye ; weigh the arguments well on both sides , not by shewes and shifts , but by the just Ballance of the incorruptible and unchangable Word of God ; In judging , judge I beseech thee righteous judgment ; and let the truth be deare to thy soule ; and doe not side with any side , because thy minde gives thee , it leadeth most to ease , credit , profit pleasure , or such wordly respects , but to that which most tendeth to the glorie of Gods great name , the purity of religion , and to the most comfort and peace of thy own conscience .

2. I would have thee to live by thy owne faith , and not build upon anothers fancie , it is a great fault in some , in that they see nothing , but by other mens eyes . What this man , or such a man holdeth , that is their beleife ; And besides this , they can give no more reason for what they hold , then the Parrat of her speaking . I need not goe farre for proofe ; The point in controversie cleares it sufficiently . For as one ‡ ‡ Galen : Clas. 2. lib. de cuiusq : animi peccat ▪ notitia at que medela . well saith : That which a credible person telleth , is easilie thought credible by such as are well perswaded of him . What hath drawn many unto this practice of Hearing unlawfull Ministers ? But taking the thing upon trust , without due triall and examination . Sure I am , had men measured it by the Goulden Read of the Scriptures , they would soon have perceived , that it was never set apart by Gods appointment , for the spirituall building .

3. Be not wise in thy owne eyes . But rather deny thy selfe in thy own judgment , will , affection , reason , &c. And be contented to bee guided by the alone Word of God . What is the reason that some men doe seeke after the truth , as a coward doth his enemie , loath to find him ? But because loving their owne conceit ( as Apes their yong ones ) beyond measure , they are not willing to heare of any thing that is said against it .

We see in nature , he that will heare well , must stopp his breath ; It is so in things spirituall : if a man will not keep in his breath , I meane set aside conceitednes & selfe-love , & be willing to embrace the truth , though it be contrarie to that which he formerly held he shall not profit by any thing , he heareth or readeth , but like Pharoahs● kine remaine lean & ilfavored still .

Things in the earth will grow as they find roome ; A Light in the dampes of mines , goeth out : Thus stands the case with men , when any good helpe is pur into their hands : If their hearts then , be free of selfe-love , spirituall pride , personall prejudice , base desire of vaine glorie and humaine applause , &c. They will profit by it ; Contrariwise if their hearts , like a deepe hole , be full of those filthy Foggs & Mists , the truth then ( how clearely soever it shine ) will dampe & quench in them , as a light in the mines of the earth .

4. Civile dig . 4. de legib. Senatusque consult : Whereas the Civil Law saith , it is uncivil for any man not having weighed the whole Law , to give advice or judgement some one parcel of it , alone proposed . I doe therefore intreat the Reader , to forbeare his Censure , till he have read the whole booke over . And if it be so , that he thinkes , in some point I have erred ( as who liveth & erreth not ) I would not have him , for such a particular fayling to condemne the whole . But let that beare its owne burden , and let the rest be received , as ( after due trial ) the same shal be found agreeable to the Word of God .

I speake not this , as beeing privy to any known crime this way ; But because I am privy to many known wants & great weaknesses in my selfe . Besides , it is the manner of some , if they can spy some thing not well handled in another mans writing , to take such advantage , as hereby they seeke to bring the whole under reproofe and condemnation . Of this shal be all their talke , at this they will gird and jest ; not beeing able in the meane time to take away the force of any one of the maine arguments . Neither indeed dare to attempt it , but like the snaile keepe in their hornes .

5. I thinke good to speake here a little concerning the manner of this answer . And that no man may be offended as it ; I doe professe in the Word of truth , that it hath much greeved me all along the discourse , to speake so much of the Treatiser , whose learning I doe much reverence ; But the cause beeing the Lords , and I seeing how much it lay upon me , to take away the Maskes and visards , whereby many have been deceived , I have done my best to shew the absurdities , contradictions , unskilfulnes & daungerousnes of that Treatise . And for this not sparing but speaking home , I have had some reasons for it , as partly here follow .

1. Because the Booke containes a pernitious & most hurtfull errour ; and by how much it is caried forth , under a colourable shew of a pious and godly practice , by so much the more hath it caused many greevious & long lasting miseries . I know there are many viler errours dayly maintained ; But if we respect mens walking in the Holie Order of the Gospell , this is a main stumbling block & barre in the way to it : There are some humours , which some where placed in the body , are quiet and doe little hurt , but in other places , specially in the passage , they doe much mischiefe . This errour , is as a corrupt humour , fallen into the passage of the bodie , the Church ; and therefore it must needs be the more perilous .

2. I have spoken the more plainely against it , because they say , there are manie in England and in other Countries , who hold it unlawfull to be present at their divine service , and to receive the Sacraments in the Parish-Churches ; and yet thinke it lawfull to heare the Ministers of that Church . Now , if such men have ( as had David ) tender hearts , and hearts that will smite them for a little ; They will surely come off from this too . Seeing I have here proved , that the ground they build on , is very sand , and their pleading for it , wants both Religion & reason .

3. Such a general fame is gone forth of the booke , as to be so learnedly & absolutely done , that it gives all men satisfaction ( some few riged spirits only excepted ) & that no man would ever be able to make any sound reply to it . And for my selfe , I have been by name chalenged ( as it were ) to answer , with much base insulation , as if I d urst rather eate my pen , then put my pen to write against it . And this both before my thoughts were setled on thing , and since too . Now , whether the worke be according to the praise of it , let all indifferent men judge .

4. Seeing it is given out ( but me thinkes it should not be true ) that there are some learned men , which plead for the Hearing of false Ministers ; and upon the Treat . grounds ; I have therefore discovered the sleightnes of it ( to say no worse ) the more : That such ( if there be any such ) may see their errour ; If not , reply if they please & when they wil.

But for the person , or persons that shall reply ; These 3 things I desire may be considered : 1. That they change not the state of the question ; which is not , whether it be lawfull to heare the Ministers of the church of England , or of Rome , or of any Church ; But taking it granted , a Church to be false , & the Ministerie Antichristian ; whether Hearing in such a case be lawfull ; For the question now stands thus , & no otherwise .

2. J exspect an answer , in a more honest & fairer way , then I had the last time namly , by a sort of gnats , * * It hath been objected as I heare , that I should answere dead men ▪ now how so ever it is wel known that my former booke was both finished and at the Presse , before Dr. Ames death : yet say I had writen after his death : doe not all men know , that in points of differences , we haue respect to the matter it self , & no to any person on either side holding the same ▪ whom I felt but never saw : the Law of God and Light of Nature teacheth .

Quod tibi vis fieri , hoc facias & alteri .

Indeed it is a very unbeseeming thing , that men who doe professe Religion & learning , should disgrace other mens worke , behinde their backs , shunning in the meane time the open light , whereby their deeds might be made manifest . As for such Replyers , whose arguments are Trencher-squibs , and reach only as farr as to the end of the table ‡ ‡ Not soe farr as to pen , Inke & paper , to answer in a faire & honest way . ; well they may satisfie men of the same humours ; But with men fearing God they shall finde no acceptance .

3. I exspect plaine dealing ; Truth is like the glassie sea before the throne , which is bright , cleare , not a clouded bodie or covered with the vailes of mens fond fantisies & dreames . Let such Childish toyes be kept for Children . I require the voyce of the Shepheard , read it me out of the Prophets shew it me out of the Psalmes , read it out of the Law or Gospell . For without this mens judgments have no credit . * * Ego vocem pastoris requiro , lege haec mihi de Prophetis , lege de psalmo ; recita de lege ; recita de Evangelio ; recita de Apostolo . August . de Pastorib . cap. 14.

Before I end my speach , I thinke good to mention you my Brethren , with whom I am in speciall communion , & over whom the Holy Ghost hath made me overseer . This answer will serve to cleare us , from such untrue reports , as some malitiously have raysed up , as if we were declined from our ancient profession , Now , what we hold concerning the fallacies & fantasies newly broached , I desire all the Churches of God , here to take knowledge off , for our clearing & justification .

I thought when J first began with this Treatise , in ending of it , to have ended with publick controversies ; and so have followed a more quiet kind of studie ; But seeing , what the truth suffers in regard of adversaries to it on both sides , the love of God constraineth me not to be silent , but according to that measure which the Lord hath dealt unto me , & as my smal abilities are , to contend for the faith , against dexteriores & sinesteriores , adversaries on both hands , & to deliver it from the evill report which both have sought to bring upon it .

And as I have made way now for Gods people , to enter into the sweet order of the Gospell & covenant o● the Lord ; So J purpose very speedily to publish something for their stay and preservation therein .

You know ( my Brethren ) for the divisions of Reuben are great thoughts of heart . Lord , how are we spoken of in Gath & Askalon , for the rents & Schismes amongst us . In truth , I doe not know , for what our profession , is beholding unto , in respect of some men , but only to be dispised & reproached for their idle & giddle courses * * Of certaine turbulent spirits it is said : Illis quieta movere magna merces videbatur . Salust . They thought the very disturbance of things quietly established an hyre sufficiently to set them on worke . But that the truth of God may no longer suffer , but the sinne & shame lie where it ought ; I will by the good hand of God assisting me , cleare our Religion , as that it leads not to Schismes & Church-breakings ; but such things are rootes of bitternes & cursed taires , planted & sowed by the Envious man , in the unsanctified hearts of ungodly people ; Besides , I purpose to shew from the Word of God , why men ought to keep themselves with true Churches . Howbeit , in their opinions very corrupt , & how . Againe , how farre particular men have libertie to deale with a Church ; & when they are to rest , & how , a why ; Moreover , how farre a Church-Covenant binds every member of the body to that bodie ; & wherefore there must not be divisions , neither from , nor in the bodie . Againe , in case there be a division in Church , I wil shew by what signes & tokens , the Church may be known from the Schismaticks . In a word , I will shew how farre the Office of the Eldership extendeth in matter of Government ; and how farre obedience is due unto them of the people . These things & many more of the like nature , you shall shortly see them handled ; For J purpose to publish a large Treatise of Ecclesiasticall Politie , even the whole externall regiment of the Church of God . And thus commending you to God , J take my leave ; and will during life alwayes rest

Amsterdam , Moneth 1. day 28. 1639. Yours in what he can , to doe you service I. C.
A STAY AGAINST STRAYING , OR A Reply to a Treatise published in the defence of hearing Antichristian Ministers .
SECTION I. An answer to the nameles Epistoler .

HOwsoever the publisher of the Treatise hath thought it fit to conceale his name : * * it is question , whethe● he were not a shamed , to put his name to it . a. pro : 27. 14. yet he hath prefixed to it , a large preface , wherein with a Loud voyce a he blesseth the authour , his friend , and the worke it selfe , and seekes by manie unchristian speaches , to disgrace some men what he can , inregard they Zealouslie opposed his new minion Idol .

Three reasons he giues , why ( after 9. yeares concealement , ) he hath now Published the booke ▪ first the large abilities of the author a boue many others . &c.

Answ: 1. this ground is sandy , and he speakes ( * * Ar●●● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) besides the matter : For howsoeuer we confesse , that the Author , was a godlie & learned man : notwith standing it followes not , that whatsoeuer he said , it was therfore true , & necessarilie to be published . Without offence that fitlie may be applyed to him , which a learned writer , writes of Chrisostome , a a Cal●ehil Treatise of the Crosse pag. 26. he was not without his fault . his goulden mouth wherin he passed others , had otherwhile leaden wordes , which yeelded to errour & abuse of the time .

2. Had the Pistler respected ( as he should ) the authors large abilities , he would not haue made that booke so common as he hath done , to the mans great dishonour . When one Pammachius b b Ieroms 〈◊〉 Epist: ad pamm : a Learned Man , vnderstood that Hierome , had writen some thinges amisse , against Iovinian , he sought to suppresse all the Copies , & to haue them concealed , till the faults therein were corrected . If the Publisher c c Let such as had a hand this way thinke of Christs worde● in mat. 18. 7. wo● to them by whome offences come . or others , had so don with that first copie which they found in his studie , they had don wel , & manifested good affection to the author : but in that they caused so vile a thing to be spread abroad , they did ill , & were his enemies . And here I thinke of that sentence in Eccles : 10. 1. dead flies cause the oy●●●ēt of the Apothecary to send foorth a stinking sauour : so doth a little folly , him that is in reputation for wisedome and honour . I acknowledge to Gods glory , and the Treatisers due Prayse , that there are in print of his , sundry fruitfull treatises d d Specially his Iustification of separation . a booke so sufficientlie penned as no Adversary hetherto durst reply . : but certanelie this published since his death , is like the wild gourd in the Pottage , a cheife cause that the former are the lesse accepted with the godlie . It is true therfore as Ferus e e ferus Annot. in Ecclesic ; 10. v. 1. fol. 95. 2● Chro: 19. 12. 1. King : ● . 46. sayth one fault depriues men of many fauours . Iehosaphats neere affinitie with Ahabs house , marvelouslie eclipsed his other vertues : so the Treat : his pleading for Antichristian Preists , & the hearing of them , lies as a great blott vpon him . But what shall I say , there is no man that liueth & sinneth not . Wise men doe not thinges somtimes wiselie . f f Nemo morta●●●● omnibus 〈◊〉 sapit ▪ plin .

3. It is a weake ground to perswade men to embrace any doctrine from the large abilities of some persons holding it : for we are charged , not to beleeue what an Angel from heauens g g Gal. 1. 8. should teach us , if he speake not according to the Oracles of God . The imitators of Alexander thought it not enought , to follow him in his vertues , but in his stouping & other gestures . But christians haue learned to doe better : to wit , In a certaine sermon which he made to ▪ young men . to leaue all men ( be he kinge , minister , maister &c ) where they leaue the truth . Basil for this purpose vseth a fine similitude ; we must ( sayth he ) be pertakers of other mens sayings , after the manner of bees : they fly not to all flowers , nor where they sitt , doe the cropp them quite away , but take only so much , as sufficeth to their honie making : so we , ( if we wil be wise ) must take from others , so much as is sound , & agreable to truth , & for the rest not meddle with it .

His second reason is , the worth of the worke . For it were ( saith he ) great I ittie * * It seemes the 9. yeares before he printed it he wanted pitty . that such a worke as this should be concealed : And therfore he tels vs in the title page , he hath published it for the common good . And in the conclusion of the preface , desires the Lord , to make the whole worke ( for the generall good now set foorth ) profittable to those that loue the truth .

Answ: 1. The thinges that are not faire , seeme faire to him that is in loue . * * Theocrit ▪ i● Bucoliast . So Daphius , in the poet saith to Polephemus . It is iust so with superstitious men , they thinke passinge well of their vaine in ventions , howbeit they have no reason for it .

And surely , were it not , but that this man is Fallen excessiuelie in loue with the Treatyse , * * Quid non cogit amer . martial , l. 4. Encolp he would not so applaud it , much lesse haue been at the charge of the printing . But what may be reason , that he & others , are so in loue with it ? if they would answere here [ bona fide , ] my mind giues mee , they would say as Samson did when he desired to take a wife of the vncircumcised Philistines : she pleaseth me well a a Iudg: 14. 3. So these covet to be vnequallie yoaked with this harlot-hearing : because it pleaseth them wel . & why so ? oh it leads them vnto an easie & plausible walkinge : they haue a tricke now to deceiue the Prelates , & to shunne Persecution for the crosse of Christ .

2. Touching a common good , this is the common pretence of all deceiuers , b b Pro ; 1 , 11. 12 1. Pet. 2. 19. Eze. 12. 22. and the same as old almost as the world : for the Devil used it , c c Gen. 3 , 2. 30. to beguile the woman in Paradise saying God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof ye shal be as Gods . He reasoneth here ( as Pareus d d Comment: in Gen: c. 3. v : 5. p. 115. Tom: 1. observeth on the place ) to this effect that which wil be for your good , e e Duaran : distinct : 8. Field of the Church . l. 3. p. 157. 158. Sanders de visib : m●n : lib : 5. ought not to be omitted : But the eating of the forbidden fruit wil be so : ( for yee shal be as Gods : ) Therefore , &c.

And the children of this wicked one , haue since in this followed their fathers stepts : for what lies & beastlie vanities are there extant , but the authors in publishing of them , haue professed an ayming at Publick profitt ? Was not the Hierarchie that monstrous monster , cunningly erected at first ( & to this day justified ) vnder couler of common good : e e 22. Gui● . hard l. 4. c. 6. sun . Lomb. l. 4. Rhem in 1. Cor. 14. Soct . l. namelie to Preserue the vnitie & peace of the Church : for the auoyding of schisines and factions and that there may be no Tyranny or oppression among brethren . The like may be said of the masse , merits , purgatorie , d d 2● . Qu●st. 1. art 1. Polidor l. 6. c. 12. invent : pilgrimages , bowing at Altars , praying to Angels , worshipping of Images , Crosses , Pardons , Holie oyle , Fasts , Feasts , absolution by preists , prayer in an vnknowne tongue : & the rest of the filthy trash & dung in Babilon : Allexan ab . Allexxan : l 3. doe not the couetuous marchants of that see , tel theire chapmen all is for common good : [ se * * Sotus l. 4 distinct 43. art 3. Bellarm. de purgat . l. 2. c. 17. Thomas Aquin : ● dist : their Bookes ] Not but their bels in the tower , and the crosse on the steeple , are set vp vnder a pretence of common good : the one beeing to driue away euil spirits ▪ & the other to keepe the Church from burninge , To vel vs therefore of common good , we tel him , Plus aloēs . quam mellis habet . * * Iuvenal : Sat: 6. . This is but a cunning bait , which imposters formerlie have vsed , to draw simple people into a snare . But to keepe our selues from it , we need goe no further , then to a saying of an Ethnicke : That onlie are we to esteeme good & profittable , which we see to be right and lawfull * * Nihil vtile , quod non idem iustum et honestum . Cic : De Offic li● : 3. .

But seeing the thinge he pleads for , is most vnrighteous , ( for it tends to the dishonour of Gods great name , the discredit of the gospel , the keeping backe of many from receyuing the loue of the truth a a Witne sie many in England , which hold the parish Churcher false , and yet goe thether to heare , beeing misled by this Treat : ) great pitty it was , so corrupt a thinge euer saw the light , but rather had perished in the birth , or at least , upon the first sight of it , the finders had burned it , as the bookes mentioned in Act: 19. 19. For so a great deale of common hurt had been prevented in the Churches of God , and in the world too , Woe vnto them that call euil good . b b Esa. 5. 20. .

His third reason is , to preserue the Churches priuileidge : defend Christs cause against the enemies of God , which ayme at the vtter ruinating of the Church , & labour to rent it in peeces , &c.

Answ , The Romanes [ as it is reported c c Varre . ) keept in Capitolio certaine dogs & Geese , which by their barking , & gagling should giue warning in the night , of theeues that entered in but if they cryed out in the day time , when there was no suspicion , their legs were to be broken of , because they cryed when there was noe cause . If the Publishers contending here , be [ d d Doctrinsa vana est , rati● ut accesserit . Tull : as he sayes himselfe ] to preserue the churches privileidge . & the thinge certaine which he chargeth his brethren with : to weet , that they were the troblers of Israel . let him then ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * * Suidas : ) we are the laurel . But if he be erronious in the one , & a false accuser in the other , I hope among the godly wise , he shall haue his demerit accordinly . To the matter .

First that hearing of false ministers is a privileidge of Gods Church , I denie it , this is but the froth of his owne lips , neither soled nor sauerie : as wel he may say , that whoredome is a womans priviledge : theift a servants : rebellion a subjects : disobedience childrens : reason and ground there is alike . And to proue this , thus I reason .

What soeuer God hath bestowed vpon his Church as her priviledge , the same is to be found in his word : But it is not mentioned there , that true beleeuers ( as their priviledge ) ought to heare Antichristian Teachers : Ergo : &c.

The proposition is vnquestionablie certaine by these scriptures . Psa: 19. 7. 2. Timot 3. 15. 16. Esa. 8 20. Iohn . 15. 17. Act. 20. 27.

Besides this is the vnanimous consent of learned writers . The scriptures ( sayth Athanatius e e Cont , Gent. In Iohn . hom. 49. ) doe helpe vs with the knowledge of euerie truth . Here ( saith Augustine f. ) we find whatsoeuer is to be don , or not don Allthings ( sayth Chrisostome g g Comment: in 2 These : 2. ) that are meet to be knowne , in Gods word are manifested . The same sayth Iustine h h In Apol: 2. et . inst. Stror● . l. 6. , Clemens i i 2. Lib. 2. e. l. Paraeus k k Disput. Aphoris in Bellarm de verb. dei . Aphor. 1. Polanus , l l Synt. theol . lib. 1. C. 46. , Cartwright m m Answ . to the Rhem on Heb. 9 sec● . 2. , B , Hall n n Rom. irrecon . sect. 16. , D. Iames o o Manuduct . to divinit . Pag. 1. . & others . The Assumption is proved thus : If the hearing in question be condemned in scripture : then it is no priviledge of the Church : but the first is true . therfore the second .

The first part which is only controversall is evident & cleare by these scriptures . Levit. 17. 3. 4. deu. 12. 5. Pro. 5. 8. Hos. 4. 15. Mat. 7. 15. 2. Cor. 7. 15. 16. 17. Reuel : 18. 4. Son . 1. 6. 7. To this all sorts of writers ascent . Zanchie p p Explicat . in Philp. c. 3. ver. 2 , pag. 17 4. Tom. 4. on philip. 3. 2. Beware of doggs : Writes thus : Tales doctores , qui testimonium non habent ab Apostolis , Apostolicisque viris atque ecclesijs : nempe summa diligentia ac studio curandum esse , vt eos observemus , cognoscamus , et fugiamus : Such Teachers as haue not their authortie , From the Apostles , and Apostolical men , & true churches , we ought with great studie and care to obserue , know , & auoyd them . The Authors q q Admon . ● . pag. 27. of the Admonition to the parliament affirme : Whosoeuer preacheth by an vnlawfull calling he may not be heard : noe , though he speake the truth , no more then the Devil was to be suffered , howbeit he preached Christ . As God ( sayth One r r T. C. repl. 1. p. 83. 155. ) hath ordained that the word should be preached , so also in what order & by whome : And therfore as we care for the truth , so we must of whome we receiue it . So judicious Rolloc : s s Comment. in 1 Thes. 5. 21. l. P. 228. : Non audiendi et explorandi sunt , nisi qui antegrestam ad id vocationem habent aliquam . They are not to be heard & tryed , who haue not a lawfull fore-gooing calling to the ministerie . And of the same iudgment , is Rivetus , t t Comment. in psa. 16. pag. 52 , musculus v v Comment. in Mat. 7. 15. , Oecolampadius x x Comment. in Esa. c. 2. sol . 20. , Calvin y y in Psal. 16. , Fenner a a Interpretat . Son . chap. 1 , ● . 6. 7. , Lation b b Syons Plea . pag. 283. : yea the papists in this point are sounder then either the Pistler or his Leader . : Paul , c c The Popes first Breue , dated in the years 1606 , , the fift , in a certaine Bull sent to his Calues in England ( Catholikes Imight haue said ) chargeth them by all meanes , not to goe to the parish Churches , or heare their sermons , least they incurre the wrath of God . The Rhemists d d Annot in 1. Cor. 10. sest , 21 say the like : so the Doway translators . & adde thus : Such as goe vnto false Churches , are to be counted of that ranke Paul speakes of , in Tit. 1. Vit. who confesse they know God but in workes deny . him . e e In 1 king . chap. 5. v. 19. .

For the munition therfore which he speakes of here , if this sinsull hearing be his best , to preserue Gods Church from the attempts of adversaries . Let him keepe it himself : for we know ( oh that we had neuer knowne it ) by vnhappy experience , the use & nature of it . As the Iewes of old by taking the Aegyptians for their munition f f Esa. 30. 2. 3. , where it hath entertainment , a very fyer-brand that consumeth the building : a Gangrene that stayes not in one place but corrupteth by degrees the whole body , & kils It a a Fernel , Amb. physiolog . l , 7. ●● p 6●● . : in a word it is as the wild Bore of the forest , which wasteth the Lords vineard . b b Witnesse the Church of Leiden whe by this meanes now sits sol●tary , that was full of people . thy Calse O Samaria hath cast thee off . hos. 8. 5.

The Butler talkes of Athalias spirit , & compares his opposites to her , but surelie were not his eyes blinded , with the vnlawfull loue of his deare Delilah , he might see that the similitude holds better another way . Did not that wicked woman occasion trobles in Israel , c c 2 King . 11. by seekinge to put downe their right kinge , & set vp her selfe ( a vsurper & murderer ) in the place of him : now what else ( speake on your credit ) hath this idolatrous hearing don , since the time it was hatched ? but like the thinge that God hates , sowed discord among brethren , d d Pro. 6. 19. & why ? because it tendeth to the putting downe , of our true king Christ Iesus , & to rayse vp Antichrist againe , that bloodie Tirant .

2. Touchinge the personall wronge here offered to his opposites : as naming them the enemies of God , church renters , schisme-makers : matching them with most notorious sinners : & publishinge to the world private thinges purposelie to disgrace them . I thinke this not worthy of answere : the men are now at rest : besides such was their good walking when they liued , as that his vncharitable tongue and pen , cannot weaken their wel deserued praise , among the saints that knew them . Notwithstanding sober words would better haue becommed him . Is this religion ? is this conscience ? is this charitie ? To tell in the eares of the world priuate things against brethren . Methinkes the man should blush at it : specyallie beeing reputed ( or at least would be ) one of large Charitie , e e tantane animis calestibus ●rae , Aneid . l. 1. and a great reprouer of others for rash censuringe : Now knowes he not what an odious thinge it is , to condemne that thinge in another , wherein he himselfe in the meane time is a transgressor , this not onlie lies vnder the iust reproofe of the scriptures . f f Mat 7. 3 4. Rom 1. 21. But also condemned by heathens . It is note of follie ( saith Tully ) g g est enim proprium stulriti●● aleg●ru● vitiae cernere oblivissi suorum . Tul : de offi● . l. 3. to see another mans faults & forgett oure owne , foe in the Poet.

Turpe est doctori , cum culpa redarguit ipsum .

But it is no new thinge , for such as are earnestlie zealous for the churches reformation , that all thinges may be there according to the divine patterne , to be tongue-bitten by innovators & corruptors of religion : for so were the Prophets vsed , h h ● King . 18. 18 Eze: 4. 15. Ame 7. 10. so was Christ i i Luk. 23. 25. Ieh. 19. 12. & k k Act 19. 12. Act. 17. 6. Act. 24. 6. his Apostles serued by the Iewes . So in ages after , Constantine l l S●zomen : l. 1. c. 8. was accused as a pervertor of Gods order , because he furthered and followed christianity . Other goodmen wanted not thier crosse this way , but were alwayes reuiled with most words of reproach , & deemed of their adversaries the vilest persons of the earth . When the Scythians as Justine m m Just. l. 2. reports saw they could not overcome their enemies with weapons : they laid them aside & tooke vp whips . Men in errour doe so : finding in scriptures nothinge for them , they make whips with their tongues : that is , slaunder allwayes their opposites with heresie ; schisme , pride , obstinacy , disloyalty , sedition , et quid non : hoping to get that by rayling , of which they haue no 〈◊〉 to get by reasoning . a a Such a one he seemes to be ▪ that hath sett forth the New English Canaon . the prophane Ismael seekes to disgrace the truth by scoffing at it . As he loued cursing , so let it come unto him as hedelighted not in blessing , so let it be farre from him psa : 109 , 17.

3. But to speake a litle of the accusation it selfe : How soeueuer I will not meddle with their division , neither iustifie his opposites in the manner of their departure : not withstanding , al though he wipe his mouth , & would make others , cheife authors of the breach : yet the truth is , he & such which went ordinarilie unto false churches , with such as iustified and abetted so vile a practice , were principallie the instruments , of that great scandall . It is a receiued Tenent amongst the learned : Such are the causers of contention , that bringe new doctrines into the Churches of God .

b b Commen . in Rom. 16. 17. 18. ot . 1 Cor. 1. p. 7. Pareus describes the authors of dissentions , to be men that adulterate pure doctrine by humane inventions , violate the discipline of the Church , & seeke by sugred words , & counterfeit zeale to pervert others . To the same effect writes Gaulter , c c Comment. in Rom: 16. 17. Mornaeus , d d lib : de Eceles . l. 2. Martyr , e e de Calib et vot : cont . Smit . Morton , f Parker : g g On the Crossed pa. 2. c. 9. sect. 3 p. 116 yea some Papists too , as Cassander h h De Rora . Eceles . art , 7. & others .

To apply this , seeing the Publisher and others with him , haue committed apparent idolatry , meantained it in the Church , & sought thereby , to pervert the right wayes of the Lord , and to draw the sincere into errour & sinne : it must follow necessarilie , that the strife & contention which hath fallen out vpon it , either among brethren of their owne congregation or else where , came cheiflie by their occation , & meanes .

For the exclamation therefore , which he and others take vp against the godlie , i i Apol. l. 2. for their contentions , I mind it truly , as a great prophanes in them . We would count him a most vile person , that would doe whatsoeuer he could , to make another angry , and when he saw him so , would reproach him for it , blaze it abroad , speake of it behind his back , to his great disgrace . It were happy for some if they had neuer abused Gods people this way , by seeking ( as it were ) to anger them in hearing vnlawfull ministers , marying their wiues by Popish licenses , thorow justifying halters & neuters , comunicating spiritually with Antichristians : & other such muddy stuffe found the valy : & afterwards perceuing them to be stirred hereat , cry out with a full mouth . oh what a contentious people are they , oh how scandalous , better for aman to walke alone , then with such a compaine . And this shal be published in Gath & Askelon , that the enemies of the Lord may rejoyse & triumph . * * A seru●●● that runns awaye 〈…〉 of his maister .

But good it were , that these make bates did consider of that great day , in which Christ shall appeare in the brightnes of his father , to auenge the quarle of his least commaundement ? when God ryseth a a Ioh 31. 14. vp , wh●● 〈◊〉 they answere him ? what will they say , when he shall not only cl●●ge them , with idolatrie & covenant-breaking . But also to be the cause , & ground of the diuisions , & schismes in his churches : by meanes whereof , his name was blasphemed , the soules of the righteous greeued , the truth slaundered , the weake scandalized , & the wicked hardened in euil .

It is sure [ as some doe obserue b b Pareus in Rom: 14. ver: 13. pag. 469. ] that a more greeuious punishment is reserued for them which cause others to offend , then for they which doe such things themselves . Thus the serpent was punished more then Eue , she more then Adam : so lezebel felt heauier & deeper judgment then Ahab . To sinne hath not so much perdition in it as to induce others to sinne , so Chrisostome . c c Peccare non tantum in se per litionis habet quantum quod reliqia ad peccandum inducuntur . hom. 25 in Epist: ad Rom. in mor. ad locum .

Who is wise , that he may vnderstand these things , & prudent that he may take knowledge of them : ffor the wayes of Jehouah are righteous , & the iust shall walke in them , but the d d When at the day of Iudgment it so●lbe laid to their charge that they haue giuen scandal , they will wish rather to haue been drowned Parre on Rom: chap. 14. v. 13. p. 173. rebels shall fall in them .

SECTION 2.

THus [ Reader ] thou hast seen the reasons , why the Treatise was published : Now in the next place the Epistoler intreats thee , to take notise of two things : 1. That this practice of hearing vnlawfull ministers , Is not against any article of sayth , which is by the Church professed whereof the author of this treatise was pastor .

Answer 1. Nay stay there , that is not so , for in Article 31. of our profession , ( consented vnto by maister Robinson e e Iustification of Separat : pag: 123 , ) this thinge is absolutelie condemned . We , speakinge there of Antichristian Assemblies professe , that the faythfull may not haue any spirituall communion in their publick administrations . And for proofe thereof , these scriptures are alleaged f f Reu : 18. 3. 4. Hos: 4. 14. 15. 1 Cor: 10 14. 17 2 cro : 6. 14. 15. Son . 1. 6. 7. . But sayth he in the same place , this is no act of communion . I answere , our Christian predicessours so vnderstood it , and so doe the faithfull generally to this day : besides this new deuise wants , as truth so common sence : for it is , as if one should affirme , that he eates and drinkes , but partaketh not in the things he useth . g g Hoccine credibile est , aut memorabile Teren. And: Act. 4. so. 1 : ● .

But it may be he thinkes the following lines will helpe him . If hearing simplie were an act of communion , then euery heretique , or Atheist , or whatsoeuer he were , that should come into the church , should haue communion , which if it were true , it were good that euery Church that will auoyd Communion with prophane men to meete in priuate , and then shutt the doore , when their own companie is mett together , or else I cannot see , * * New you may , if you shutt ● et your eyes against the lig●● a Regula 〈◊〉 est distinguere aliter omnia quae a so invicem Possum seperari . how they can auoyd communion with wicked men ,

Answ. It is a certane rule ( as Logicians teach ) thinges are really to be distinguished , which in themselues are to be separated each from other . The ignorance of this distinction , is a maine cause ( as I haue obserued ) of some mens erring in this point of hearing : ffor they thinke , ( as the Pistler here vnwiselie writes ) that if members of true Churches haue not communion with the vnbeleeuers which come vnto their meetings : that then it will follow , that they may be present in false Churches in time of publick exercise , and yet haue no communion . Melano . l. 4. distinct . Systemat . theol. 1. c 4 P. 58.

To reply breifly : ( for I purpose to speake more largely of this in an other place ) There is besides Church communion , a communion in the ordinances of the Church : as in the state it selfe , ministerie , worship , Gouernment : Howsoeuer therfore a man be no member actually , of such , or such a body : And so in that respect ( to speake properly ) he hath no Church communion : yet beeing there a worshipper , he communicates in the actions don , I say whether they are good or euill .

The christian Corinthians were separated formally from the Heathen-state , and constituted in a true Church-state : notwithstanding Paul sayth , b b 1 Cor. 10. that such among them , as went vnto Idol Temples , had there communion : as how ? not Church communion , but they communicated in the euils there practised . They communicated as c c Comment. 1 Cor. 10. ver. 18. pag. 640. Pareus layth with idols , or as Ierome d d on the same place . phraseth it , the participation of devils . To be short according to Bezas e e ciusdem cultus ac sacrificij sunt conscij , siue in eodem sacri ficio consortes , ac socij , ac ejus quasivinculo in eadem religione cop●●lati . interpretation , they were guilty of the same seruise & sacrifice , or were companions and consorts therein , and coupled themselues ( as it were ) in the same religion .

To apply this to our point in controuersie , If an Heretick Atheist , or whatsoeuer he be , come to our Churches , we acknowleidge he hath communion : to weet , in the ordinances : how be it no Church communion , that is , no communion in , or with the saints gathered into the faith and order of the Gospel : so in gooing vnto vnlawfull Assemblies , if a man be no member , his communion there , is not with the people in that state , but in the humane inventions : Beza Anno●● in 1. Cor. 10. 1 , pag. 137. that is the Idol Church , wil-worship , false ministerie , and other such abominations : And this common reason sheweth , for he that is not a member of a Corporation , may yet communicate , in the administrations thereof , howbeit ( true it is ( in , or with the body he doth it not .

We need not therfore shut our doores against any person , for there followes no daunger , by their comming vnto vs : ●for howsoeuer [ as I said ] they haue communion , yet not with vs , but rather in the thinges practised with vs . Now what can the Pistler hence conclude ? only thus : [ vnlesse he be Graculus inter musas ‡ ] If I may doe a lawfull thinge , then I may doe an vnlawfull thinge : Jf a foreiner may pertake in the ciuil iustice of true magistrates , then he may so doe , in the sinfull administrations of Rebels and Traitors . I wrong him not : for his reasoning and this [ ● ] is all one in substance : If it be lawfull to communicate in a true Church , Omnia idem pului● , Lucian . with Christs ministerie and worship ; then a man may lawfully communicate in a false Church with Antichrists ministerie and worship . I could say more , but I am loth to discouer his nakednes too farre . But no maruaile when men leaue the way of truth if foolish and false thinges doe follow ,

2. But admit this hearing were not against any article of our Churches ? what is the note , that the Reader must then obserue : Surelie vnlesse the Epistoler would be noted for nonsence , we must needs conceiue , that he holds , as the Papists f f Bellarm●de c Rom. po●● : l. 4. 1. 4. Rhemist . n Luk. 18. sect ▪ 4 ▪ doe : to wit , that the Church cannot erre : and therefore we must beleeue as the Church beleeues . But are you in good earnest ? wel , we will so take it , till we are better informed . In the meane time take you notise what the Lord saith g g Esa: 8 : 20 , To the Law and to the Testimony : h h Serm , : de●em 〈◊〉 . if they speake not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them ,

Take notise also , what Augustine k k Iust mart . cont : tryph● sayth : we ought to beleeue a Church , but not in a Church , because the Church is not God , but the house of God . To the like purpose others : Neither Pastor , Councell , i i B : Bilson . par 2. p. 266 or Angel , ought in point of faith to be receiued , I say not against , but without or besides the scriptures . These k are only safe . & l l Hilar : in psa 86. to be credited ▪ for humaine pra●pts they want weight : m m Lactan : l 3. c 17. they bind not . n n Id cont: Faist : l. 23. ego soli scripturae fido said Theodoret o o Z●nch . de Tripl . Epis. p ▪ 103. . J giue trust to the scripture alone . And some papists in words say no lesse : as Thomas of Aquine , p p l 9 art. vlt. Abbas , q q Deelect cap , significasti . pan● 〈…〉 Gerson , r r In locchi P●pper . Mech●inien● . Picus Mirandula . s s Quaest ●an Pa su● . con . Occam , t t Dial. l. ● . p. 1. c. 28. P. Pi●s the second u u Abba● Vespers●n●is : ? p. 443. and Others .

In conclusion then , seeing the hearing of vnlawfull Ministers , is flat against scripture articles , ( as we ha●e partly manifested , and God willing , more will doe ) we ● must 〈◊〉 as Ierome ▪ x x in Mat. 23 speakes ) it , though it should in the meane time be iustified and practised by many Churches and people .

The second thing , which he desires may be noted is , that this hearing was not in the iudgement of the Church esteemed as a thinge that might not be borne with all .

Answ: 1 : The doctrine of the Nicolaitans ( which was a a Trenan ▪ l. 1 ▪ 27. Epiphanc . 1. Tom. 1. E●●●● 3. 29. that adulterie and fornication were no sinnes , and that men might communicate with the sacrifices of Idolaters , in their idol temples ) was not in the iudgment of the Churches at Pergamos , and Thyatira esteemed as a thing that might not be borne withall : was the same therfore good ? indeed such a conclusion we must either here gather from his wordes : or conclude he knew not well what he wrote .

2. To the iudgement of that Church , when they wrote to London : I may oppose their former and better iudgment : ffor with reverence to the Phrase , from the beginning this was not soe : ffor in their constitution , and many yeares after , they held * * Remember therfore from wh●nce thou art fallen , and repent , and doe the first workes . Reu. 2. 5. hearing of vnlawfull Ministers a very vnlawful practise .

And so much appeares in sundry passages Published to the world by the Pastor himselfe . And for the Readers better satisfaction , I thinke it not amisse to sert downe their Owne words ,

Those b b Munumission to a manuduction pag. 5. who partake in the worke of Preaching of one sent by the Bp: DOE PARTAKE IN WHAT LYETH JN THEM IN THE AVTHORITY OF THE SENDER . Againe The authorite of Ministers in their Parishionall Churches , c Page . 4. may not be , by Gods people partaken with , no not in actions otherwise Lawfull , vnder the paines of Babilons Plagues . Againe in another booke d d Religious Communion pag. 20. thus they write : Let all them that feare God , consider , that when they come to worship in the Parish Assemblyes , they joyne themselues where God hath not joyned them , and doe acknowledge that societie for the Church of God , and communion of saints , which he hath not sanctifyed for that purpose , and in saying ourfather with them , they acknowledge them , for the children of God , who in the perswation of their consciences are of their father the divel . And in the same booke a little after : e e pag. 32. Their very administrations by vnlawfull calling , are the sinnes , and so to PARTAKE WITH THEM IN THEIR ADMINISTRATIONS , IS TO PARTAKE WITH THEM IN THEIR SINNES : contrary to . Timot. 5. 22. Reu. 14. 4. In their answere to , Maister Barnerds booke , thus they write largesie of this point . f f Justification of Separat : pag. 78. 79. 80. ●e also page 17. 162. 276. 433. Some of which , is as followeth .

But the thing which most grieves Mr. B ▪ and at which he hath greatest indignation Pap. 62. is , that we will not heare his sermons though he preach nothing but the true word of God . And so he desires to heare of vs , where the hearing of the true word of God onely preached is sinn and forbidden by Christ , or the Prophets or Apostles .

For answer hereof I would know first whether Mr. B. speaking here and in many other places , of the true Word of God , do means that God hath a true word and a false word , or rather bewray not an accusing conscience , that they in England have not the true word truely taught , that is , in a true office of Ministery ?

Now for the demaund ( referring the reader for more full satisfaction to that which hath bene published at large by others ) I do answer , that as it was vnlawfull to * * N●mb . 16. 2. C● . 26. 1 King . 12. communicate with Corah or with vzziah though they offered true sacrifices , so IS IT VNLAWFVL ▪ TO COMMVNICATE WITH ADEVISED MINSTERY , WHAT TRVTH SOEVER IS TAVGHT IN IT .

Secondly the Lord hath promised no blessing to his word but in his owe ordinance , though by his superaboundand mercy he oft tymes vouchsafe that which no man can chalendg by any ordinary promise

Thirdly * no man may partake in other mens sinns , ●●m. 5. 12. but euery Ministery eyther devised or vsurped is the sinn of him which exerciseth it . Rev. 18. 4. And as no good subject would assist or communicate with any person in the administration of civil Justice to the Kings subjects , ( no not though he administred the same never so equally and indifferrently ) except the same person had commission from the King so to do : so neyther ought the subjects of the kingdome of Christ to partake with any person whomsoever in the dispensation of any spirituall thing : ( though in it self never so holy ) withot sufficient warrant and commission from the most absolute and sovereigne King of his Church Christ Iesus . And where Mr. B. speaks of hearing the true word of God only preached , he intimates therin , that if we would heare him preach it would satisfy him well ▪ and so teacheth vs with himselfe and others to make a schisme in the Church , in vsing one ordinance and not an other .

It is all one whether a man communicate with the minister in his pulpit or with the Chauncelor in his consistory , both of them minister by the same power of the Bishop . The Chauncelor may iudge justly , & who knowes whither or no the Minister will teach truely ? And if he doe not , but speak the vision of his owne heart , what remedy hath the Church , or what can they that hear him do ? May they rebuke him openly according to his sin , and so bring him to repentance ? or must they not beare his errors yea his heresyes also during the pleasure of the Bishops , even their Lord , & his ?

And would you Mr. B. be content your people should heare a masse-Priest or Jesuite , though he professed as loud as you do , that he would teach the true word of God ? And think not scorne of the match , for you haue the selfe same office with a masse Preist though refyned . If he be ordayned by a Bishop ( though it be the Bishop of Rome ) he may minister in any Church of England by vertue of that ordination . Andbesides masse-Preists preach some and those the mayne truthes , and the Ministers in England neither do nor dare preach all , no nor some which ( it may be ) the others do .

Is it not better then for the servants of the L. Iesus to exercise and aedify themselves according to the model of grace receaved , though in weaker measure , then to be so simple as to come to your feasts , though you cry never so loud vnto them , thinking that because your stoln waters are sweet , and your hidden bread pleasant , that they have no power to passe by , but must needs become your guests ?

And here ( to use the Pistlers words , ) it is wel to be marked by the Reader , how the Church when these thinges were written , enioyed as a Pastor , so a iudicious Ruling Elder too , and their company greater by farre then it was , when that letter was framed .

Such as write of the Government of Common-wealths doe hold it for a rule , that to redresse abuses in any State , a better Way cannot be taken , then to haue thinges brought to their first institution . Hence it is , that the Venetians , haue a supreame Magistracie , which they call A Syndicate that once in a few yeares , ● survey● all the Offices and dignities in their wealth that so all things may continue and stand entyre , according to the rules and precepts of their first Constitutions and Ordinances .

If the Pistler had desired the common good of that Church : he would haue sought , to haue had thinges reduced to their primitiue Originall , and good beginning : and not Mention as he doth , their depriuations , declinations , departures * * ser●en● qualitas vi●i dignoscitur . : as a rule for all Posterity to measure their faith and actions by . It is an infallible maxime , ( as D : Vsher g g De Christianor Eccl. success . et stat●● cap. 1. pag. 19. and other obserue out of Tertullian h h Id verum quodcunque primum . id adultorum quod cunque posterius . ) whatsoeuer is first , that is truest , and what comes after is adulterate . The first in any kind , or sort of thinges is truest and best : so Feild .

3. But admitt there were many that held this hearing lawfull , and soo haue don along time , what of this ; is the thing he better for that ? in no wi●e : For not custome or multitudes must be followed , but the truth of Gods word . Walke ye not in the statutes of your fathers , I. Of the Church . l. 2. c. 5. p. 49. neither Obserue their iudgments , nor defi●e your selues with their idols k k Ezech. 20. The like precept we haue , in 3 : ●ch : 11. Follow not that which is euil , but that which is good .

Cyprian and others of the Fathers ( as they are called ) speake wel to this purpose : we must l l Non debemus attende●e quid alius ante nos f●cerit aut faciendum putauerit sed quid ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit . Cyp● Epist. 63. not regard what others did be fore vs , or thought fitt to be don , but what Christ did who was before all . We Must m m non est de consuetudene praescribendum sed ratione vin cendum . Epist. 74. not prescribe vpon custome , but perswade by reason . Whatsoeuer n n Tertullian lib de vi●g : sauoreth against the truth , it is heresie be the practice thereof , neuer so ancient . Non illa tantum in religione fugienda , quae Verbo dei adversantur : sed ea etiam quae verbo dei , non sunt praescripta , etiamsi ab acutissimis hominibus excogitata , a doctissimis defensa , et diuturna consu etudine recepta . Not only in religion must we auoyd all thinges contrary to the word of God ; but also whatsoeuer is not therein prescribed : o Polanus Comment: in Ezec : 20 pag: 481. yea howbeit the same should be deuised by the acutest men , defended by the most learned , and receiued by long custome .

Then we serue God , p. Fox Act. and mon: p. 18 29. when in his worship , we follow his word , and not mans fantasies , custome , multitude &c: so Bradford the martyr .

Thus we haue ( according to his intreatie ) taken a vew of his two thinges , the which are so vaine and frivelous , as indeed deserued no answere . yet least any of that faction should thinke we passed them over without any examintion , because we feared the weight and force thereof : I haue breiflie replyed : and desire the humble and godly Reader , to con●ider what both haue written .

SECTION : 3.

●The Epistoler hauing ended his two obseruations , prepareth now himselfe in the next place ( in earnest ) for disputation * * Dulce bell●●● in expertis . : And first of all , ( after some spitefull words cast on his opposites , ) like Thraso in Terence ( who thought himselfe a none-such , o. Metuebant omnes iam me . in Eunuch : and thereupon boastingly prayseth himselfe : They are all affraid of me , Act: 3. sc. 1. as if he had don some great pe●ce● of seruice , ) he daringlie prouokes who * * Et calum territat armis . Virg. in Aeneid : will to reply , if their stomacks serue . And because he will speake ( omissis nugis ) to the purpose indeed . He vndertakes to handle the point in controversie methodicallie : that is , to propound first his opposites obiections . And afterwards to giue some answere to them ,

First ( sayth he ) they obiect & say that we hould the Church of England to be a false Church , and the ministers thereof to be Antichristian , and yet we goe thither to worship , and this say they is absurd .

His answere hereto is : Before wee answere directlie to this obiection , we shall intreat the Reader , and themselues to consider of what followes .

Answ: we read of one Doria the Admiral of Genua , that fighting at sea against the Sarasens , he fetched his course so farre about to gaine the wind , that he could neuer come to strike a blow before the battle was ended . The Epist: is here fallen into such a wild and wandring course , for seeking to get some advantage by windy wordes , he goes quite away from the thing which he propounded , and comes not againe to speake either much or little of it .

But no maruaile our new maister * * It seemes the Pist: is one of Antontes scholers mentioned in Tullie , who wisheth men if they be trobled about a hard question to say nothing to it . hath shewed vs such a trick : Cic , de orat , l. 2 , the truth is ( as one a a D. Couel , Church Gouerment . c , 1 , p ▪ 5 , speakes in the like case ) he made the obiection stronger then he was able to answere : Better therfore to be silent then light a candle to discouer his owne nakednes .

But it may be he , or others of that side , wil be the more willing to reply , if they shall se this argument laid downe in some better forme . If that will doe it , we will doe our best to make way for them . Thus then we reason .

To worship God in any other way or manner , then he hath in his word prescribed , is vnlawfull :

But to heare Antichristian Ministers in false Churches , is to worship God in a way and manner which he hath not prescribed :

Therefore it is a sinne to doe it .

The maior no man dares deny I assure my selfe : For it is manifest and certane by the whole course of the scriptures . Deu: 12. 8. Leuit. 10. 20. psa : 119 : 133 : Mic. 7. 18 : Hos: 9. 15 Ihon 4. 23. mat. 15. 3. 4. Colos 2 , 8. 2 Ioh. 16. 17.

Moreouer all sorts and sects of writers acknowledge this For a truth . Zanchy b b Explicat : in Coloss: 2● 23. pag. ●19 . To●● . 4 , saith , Deus et solus vult coli , et eo solo cultu , quem ipse instituit . God wil be worshipped alone , and with that worship alone , which he himselfe hath appointed . So writes Luther , c c Comment. in Galat. Cap. 6. pag , 871. Omnis talis religio , qua colitur deus sine verbo et mandato eius , idolatria est , et quo ea est sanctior et spiritualior in speciem , hoc pernicior et p●stilentior est .

All such religion wherein God is worshipped without his word & precept , it is idolatrie , and the more holy and spirituall the same is in shew , the more daungerous & pernitious it is .

Brentius * * Qui●unque cultus 〈…〉 tam aut verbum 〈…〉 ta tum ab●st , 〈…〉 vt major●m ab●●t 〈…〉 ●psi 〈…〉 cap. ● , ●0 , 2 ▪ a man of rare learning among the followers of Luther sayth ; whatsoeuer worship is sett vp without the commaundement or word of God , it is so farre from beeing acceptable to him , that a greater abomination thou canst not put upon him . the like saith Chrisostome Etenim quod fit iuxta dei voluntatem quamvis videatur improbum ess● , tamen omnino deo gratum est , et accceptum : contra , Quod fit praeter dei voluntatem , quanquam existimatur 〈◊〉 deo , tamen est omnium pessimum et iniquissimum . Of a truth that which is 〈◊〉 according to the will of God , although it seeme to be wicked , yet it is altogether pleasant & acceptable ●o him : 〈…〉 Contrariwise whatsoeuer is don besides the will of God , & otherwise then he will haue it don : though it be esteemed as a thing acceptable to him , yet it is of all other the worst and most wicked .

Famous Iunius e e Election ●n Ion: cap. 3. ● . 48. writes so too , God will not be worshipped either for matter or manner , but in his owne way . And this is the iudgment of Calvin , f f Instit. l 4. c. 10 Sect. 30. Chemnitius , g g Exam. par. 1 pag. 82. Cha●sanio , h h Loc. comm. pag 328 Aretius , i i Exam Theol. pag. 42 ▪ Piscator , k k In deu. 12 ▪ Observ. 4. Keckerman , l l System . The●l . pag. 401 Trelca●ius , m m Loc. comm. pag. 10 ▪ D. Fu●ke , n n Refutat . of Rastel . pa. 339 D. Androwes : o o Catach : upon the second comt : B. Jewell , p p Repl. to Hard. Art. 1. divis. 29. pag. 604 and others .

Touching the minor or second part , I may spare all proofes , and send them to their own consciences , For confirmation and conuiction .

For : 1 : That this hearinge is a worship , the same is manifest and cleare to any that haue an eye of reason , and any light of religion shining in them : None to my knowledge ( saving a poopish Parasite q q Howson . Serm ●n Psal. 118. pag. 78 or two ) euer held otherwise , And they by men of better iudgment r r Dr. La●ton ▪ in Syons Plea ▪ p. 327. haue been sharpely blamed for it .

Againe , that this worship is don in a way and manner which the Lord neuer appointed , it is as cleare as the sunne at noone day , & cannot with any modest face be denyed .

The Treatiser * * Pag. 37 ▪ confesseth that it is no perticular Ordinance left by Christ : marke that : and , in another place , s s Iustificat ▪ Separat p. 93 , 94 a false Church , sayth he , is a real and substantial idol .

Also t t Re●●giour communion . p. 37 Every such Government & ministery , as is not commaunded by God and Christ , is an idol forbidden in the second commaundement : & all subiection to it , is a bowing downe to an idol .

To compare now all this , first with the scriptures : Is the Church an idol , Abridgement p. ●3 the ministery an idol , the Government an idol &c. In the words then of the Prophet : u u Hos. 14 , ● what haue we doe any more with idols ? what agreement hath the Temple of God with idols ● x x 2 Cor. 6 ▪ 14 For we are the Temple of the living God ? Is it not said : Little children keepe your selues from idoles . Againe , my dearelie Beloued flee from idolatrie . But how ? mente et corpore : ( saith Pareus , ) a a Comment ▪ in 1 Cor. 10 , ver. 14. pag. 614 in mind & body , that is the worship & reverence of Idols : And to flee idolatrie , is not only to absteane from it , but with all the heart to auoyd it , as an abominable thinge & a most hurtfull plague .

Againe , a little after on the same place , whosoever 〈◊〉 a christian , it is necessarie that he be carefull , to keepe himselfe from all idolatriè , & the occasions , kinds , and instruments thereof : so he .

2. To compare their former positions , with the doctrines taugh● vs by learned men . Iunius b b Sacrifica●ur autem da●●nibus fi a●●a ●●co aut ●●tù & modo sacrificatur , quam prascrip●it dominus . in his notes vpon Leuit: 17 ▪ 17 ▪ sayth thus , men sacrifice to divels , if they sacrifice either in any other place or after other rite or manner , then the Lord hath prescribed .

B : Babington c c Comfortable notes upon Levit. 17. pag. 130. writing on these words , what mansoeuer there be of the house of Israel , that killeth on oxe , &c. And bringeth it not to the doore of the Tabernable , &c. sayth : Hereby was signifyed that only in the Church , by fayth in the cheife high priest Christ Iesus , sacrifice and seruice accepted of God , is , and can be offered and don , and no where else . And of this iudgment was d d Deu. 12 , p. 178 Luther , Brentius , e e Exegis . in Ioh: 4. Calvin , & others . f f Levit. 17.

Touching the high places * * 1 Kin. 12. 31 2 King . 12. 3 2 King . 4. 14 Ier. 1● . 5. Eze. 6. 2 and 6. 25 of which we read often in scripture . The time was when it was lawfull to offer sacrifices vpon them , So writes Augustine g g Qua●st. 36. in lib. Iudg. , Drusius h h Ad diffic●l . loc. Deu. 12. cap. 68. pag. 571. , Rivetus i i Comment. in Hos. 4. 13. pag. 148. , and others . And so much our Learned Ainsworth in his Annotations vpon Leuit: 17. 5. obserueth out of the Hebrew Rabbins . Before the Tabernacle was sett vp , the high places were lawfull , & the seruice was by the first borne : after the Tabernacle was erected , the high places were vnlawfull and the seruice ( was performed ) by the priests . Thalmud : Bab : in zebachim : chapt. 14.

Besides the Fathers of old , many hundred yeares there worshipped k k Brint . Amos : c. 7. pag. 43. almighty God , in spirit and truth . Notwithstanding it was Israels great sinne so to doe l l Amos 7. 9 ▪ . And the reason hereof is laid downe by Zanchie m m Comment. in Hos. 4. 13. pag. 81. . Quia verba non habebant , cur debere hoc facere , they had no divine precept for it : and wanting that , idcirco fornicabantur , sayth Mercer n n Comment. in Hos. 4. 13. pag. 42. : they committed therefore Fornication . Here also it must be noted , that in these places they worshipped not idols o o Calvin . pralect . in Hos. 4. but the true God , * * Deum quidem col●bant pa●●um ▪ sed ●li●i quam loco quem ●legerat : Iunius Ann●t . in 1 King . 12. v. 4. & the sacrifices which they there offered , were according to the law , p p 1. 50 their intention and meaning good q q Lavaterus in Iosh: c. 22. ●om. 59. p. 70 ▪ : and the reason why they made choyse of them , was out of deuotion , and for imitation sake of the Patriarchs r r Al●●ed . prae● : 2. p. 370. cognit . ●●eol , & quasi caelo propriora s s Brentius Comment. in Amo : 7. p ▪ 42 O●●●●mp . in Hos. 4. 13. , as beeing neerer to Heauen and the like .

Now if it were a fault in them , to cary the oblations vnder the law , to a place ( howbeit somtimes lawfull , and where their godlie ancestors had before trulie worshipped ) because they had no commaundement so to doe : Then certainlie more in fault are those , which ( with the worship of the Gosple ) goe , where it was neuer lawfull publicklie to serue God , and where their forefathers neuer to this day , rightlie served him : I meane to an idol-Church , and there offer vp spirituall sacrifices , in , by , and with an idol-ministerie : I say there beeing in the word of God no one precept for it .

If the Pistler can shew vs , what coulorably can be sayd , for the iustification of this latter : which the old idolatrous Iewes , could not say as wel , or rather better in the defence of the former .

Et eris mihi magnus Apollo .

In conclusion I shall desire every christian heart , vnto whome the Lord hath given wisdome , to consider seriously of these things . If the Prophet , only for his ciuil eating in a place prohibited , felt so sore and greevious a punishment : ah ▪ what iudgements then , may all such iustlie exspect , who dare eat spirituallie any where , against the expresse commaundement of God .

Was the Lord so zealous For the ordinances of the old law , to haue his people obserue as the substance , so euerie circumstance : whether it respected the place , the person , the time , or any other rite : and shall we thinke that now he cares not , whether men be precise & strict in dooing all the particulars belonging to the worship of the new Testament .

Ought we not to beleeue , that as God hath commaunded vs to worshipp him , that is , to heare his word , receive the sacraments & to vse other his ordinances , so he hath also called , and separated vnto himself a Church , a communion of saints and holie ones , in , and amongst whome , those holy things are to be vsed : And that we are to looke in what fellowship and communion we receive the holie thinges of God as what the thinges are , we doe receive . In a word ought we not to be perswaded that as the legal sacrifices out of the Tabernacle or Temple , within whose circle they were prescribed by the mouth of God , were vnlawfullie offered : so all the ordinances and exercises of the Church vnder the Gospel , don out of a true constituted Church , are altogether and euerie way sinfull .

Vnto the place which the Lord your God shall chuse out of all your tribes , Deu. 12. 5. 6. 7. 8. to put his Name there , euen vnto his habitation shall ye seeke , and thither thou shalt come . And thither ye shall bring your burnt-offrings , and your sacrifices , and your tithes , and heaue offrings of your hand , and your vowes , and your free-will offerings , and the firstlings of your heards and of your flockes . And there shall ye eate before the Lord your God , and ye shall reioyce in all that you put your hand vnto , ye and your housholds , wherein the Lord thy God hath blessed thee . Ye shall not doe euery man whatsoever is right in his owne eyes .

But seeing the Epist●ler hath something to say , we will now giue him audi●nce : the summe of his long discourse is this .

A Church may be said to be false in diverse respects , as first in respect of outward order , when the same is not gathered according to the rule of Christ .

2. In respect of faith and doctrine . To the latter we will not counsell any man to goe : but onelie the other . Howbeit he confesseth this la●ter false & Antichrictian .

Answ: Eu ipides . 1 : Pantheus in the poet * thought he saw two sunnes in the firmament , when there was indeed but one : it was the distraction in his head , that made him so to thinke . I will not say , that the Pist : when he wrote this was in such a distemperature ; But this I am sure of , their conceptions are both alike : For where ( I pray you ) doe yo● read in the scriptures , of two kindes of Antichristian Churches ; speake out man ? shewe vs the place , the Chapter , the verse : ingenious dealing requires it : As for your bare saying , it is farre from proofe : To affirme or denie ( according to Aristotle a a Propter nostrurm affirmare , vel negare , nihil in re sequitur . De ●nterp lib. 1. c. 6 ) is of no consequence . That some false Churches in some thinges may be lesse : corrupt then others , this is possible ; Notwithstanding if we consider in what respect they are both false , that is , the ground & cause of their Antichristisme , or falsenes , heere we shall see no difference at all ; Noe two respects as the vnaduised man affirmeth .

For example , one harlott may committ more whoredome then another : notwithstanding as they are harlots both , so it is of one and the same ca●se : namelie Fornication . The like may be spoken of other thinges , whether Animals , vigetals , minerals : howsoeuer in goodnesse or badnes they may differ , I meane , as it respects degree , e Lib ▪ ● . de prop necess c. 8 measure , quantitie , &c. yet in the Genus or kind they are one , and no otherwise to be considered . To this purpose writes A●uinas b b Aquinas 1 Sent. dist. 9 , Scotus c c Super predicabili● Qua●t . 18 ▪ , Porphirius d d Cap. 2. Sect. 32. , Zarabel Keckerman , f f Systemat . Log. l. ● , c. 3. and others .

Besides if that be true in the Philosopher : g g Opposita sunt sinul in natura Arist. Tropic . l. 6 , ●●num est , cutus contrarium est m●lum . R●ctor . l. ● . opposite thinges . in nature are alike . Againe , this is good whose contrarie is euil : it must needs follow , vnlesse the Pist : be a false Teacher , that as some Churches are visiblie true , in respect of faith and order : so others may be true too , hauing onlie outward● order albeit the members thereof haue no faith at all . The which astertion is not to be answered , but abhorred .

2. The ten Tribes which departed from the Lord , from his Temple , sacrifices , Preists , alter , and other holie signes of his presence at Ierusalem : from that time , and still after , were not Gods Church and people : so the scriptures shew : Hos: 2 , 2 , 2 Chro: 15. 3. Ier : 3. 8 , Hos. 13. 1. Amo : 9. 7. This beeing soe , I would gladlie know of the Pist : in which of his two respects they were a false Church ? I take it he will say the latter : not only in respect of outward order , but likewise in respect of fayth , and doctrine .

If he grant this , as needes he must ( vnlesse he haue their spirit , whome the Apostle h h 1 Pet. 2 , 10 termeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prosumptuous and selfe-willed ) note then the consequence : as his respects are foolish , so the Church he pleads for hearing in , is false in both his two respects . The reason is ; because the Israelites when they worshipped at Dan and Bethel , were not in respect of faith and doctrine ( to vse his termes ) more corrupt then the other now is .

And because he vndertakes nudo capite bare-faced and bouldlie to defend Antichrists cause : we shall exspect in his next Pistle-making some thing from him , which hitherto no man hath attempted : that is , to answere Mr. Ainsworth : i i I●roboam●●●pology in his Arrow against idolatry . and the non-conformists k k Course of Conformity ▪ p. 161 , 162 who affirme that the Apostate Jewes could justifie their way and course of religion : as well if not better , then the other . In short therefore , if he can shew vs what essentiall truths his disordered Church retaineth , or grosse errours reiecteth , wherein we cannot manifest that the other went as farre , For my part I will freelie confesse my errour , in beeing a long time perswaded omnia similia that they are both alike , & one no better then the other .

3. Are the Lords ordinances with the Pist : only matter of order ? What is the Church of Christ , his ministerie , the right administrations of the Sacraments & Censures , no points of fayth : oh fearefull saying . Not only is there wrong here don to the scriptures , but also to many worthy Christians : For were this true , they haue sunne in vaine , their suffrings haue been invaine : I meane , our predicessors , and others , who haue suffered joyfullie the spoyling of their goods , spilling of their blood , &c. I say for this , which according to his writing is no point of faith and doctrine .

But we need not wonder , that Gods house and his Ordinances are thus slighted of him ? doe not all adulterers after they haue sett their vncleane affections on strangers , thinke meanlie of their own wiues , disgrace them what they can : so doe Idolaters , &c.

Now I doe not know ( this gentleman excluded ) one man that hath affirmed , that the whole outward worshipp of God to be no point of faith . Cartwright speaking of this , termes it the substance of the Gospel k k T. C. l. 1 , pag. 48 Pag. 26 And in the same answere to Whitgyfe he writes thus : You say that in matters of faith and necessarie to saluation it holdeth , which thinges you oppose afterwards and sett against matters of ceremonies , orders , discipline , and Government : as though matters of discipline , and kind of government , were not matters necessarie to saluation , and of faith . The case which you put whether the Bishop of Rome be head of the Church , is a matter that concerneth the Government & kind of Government of the Church , and the same is a matter that toucheth faith , and that standeth vpon our saluation . Excommunication and other censures of the Church , which are fore-runners vnto excommunication , are matters of discipline , and the same are also of Faith and Saluation . The sacraments of the Lord his Supper , and of Baptisme are ceremonies , and are matters of Faith , and necessarie to salvation .

So Fenner l l Difence of Eccles. discipl . pag. 33 , certaine points of discipline , are of necessitie to salvation , in such absolute degree of necessitie , as is of any ordinarie outward meanes . Of which sore is the ministerie of the word , and of the sacraments , and of the censures of the Church .

Others of the Non-conformists . I could alleidge which say the same , as Parker m m De pol. Eccles. l. 1 , c. 11 , pa. 30 , Traverse n n Necessitie of discip . p. 21. , Vdal o o Demonst. discipl . pref. , Baines p p Dioces . Trial. pa. 50. , Bates q q Pa. 60 Yea and Conformists too ; as Bilson r r Perpet : Govern . ch. 1 , p. 3 , Whitgyft s s Treat. 2 , c. 1 , divis. 2. pa. 80 , Sutclift t t C●●t . Bez. c. 2 p. 32 , Loe u u Compl. of the Church p. 60 . Adde to these Scultingius x x Hierar . Anacr . l. 9. p. 1 the Papist . Who cals Ecclesiasticall Politie , the soule , joynts , and synews of the Church .

Besides howsoever the Pist: puts out the whole externall worship of God , from beeing points of faith , yet the Reformed Churches in France y y Art. 25 and the Low cuntries z z Art. 30 doe put this in , as an article of their faith . To be short , that which he cals order , is in the Treatisers a a Iustif . separ : p. 348 opinion , absolutely necessarie to the Church , an essentiall propertie . And as D. Ames b b De consc : l. 4 c 24. p. 214 saith , it cannot be a true Church that wants it . For by this , the parts and members thereof are knit together . And this is true , as in divinitie , so in Philosophie . For Forme ( according to Aristotle c c 3 Phis : 3 , 5 ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the reason of the essence . Another : Euerie thing is senceable by matter and intelligible by forme . d d Averr : in 1. de Calo. As thinges by the light are decerned : so we vnderstand the matter by its forme e e Boeth . de vnit . . It is a knowne Tenent . Forme guies to things , being , distinction and operation . So Keckerman f f Syst. Theol. l. 1. c. 17. p. 161 , Timpler g g Metaph ; l. 3 , c. 2. Pr●bl . 71 , 72. , C●●rlm h h C. 6 , pag. 35 , Scallger i i Ex. 6 , S. 3. , and others .

4. Seeing he holds it vnlawfull , to goe vnto any Church which is false in respect of order and doctrine : it must needs follow , that all Antichristian Assemblies are to be wholy left , because they are false in both , these respects .

And touching the Church of England here pleaded for , what notorious errours and abuses , she mainteaneth and practiseth , may be seen in her Convocation-Canons , visitations , Articles , the English masse booke , their manner of making of Bishops , Priests , and Deacons . To let passe the many scoores , of heathenish , Iewish , and poopish superstitions , which the Nonconformists * * See Souldier of Barwick . Table . haue in printed bookes branded her for .

And that the measure of her iniquitie , Syons pleà . may come to a speedie fulnes . Admonitions to the Parliament Altar of Damascus , and other of their bookes . Let the Reader obserue , the multitude of grosse errours , which she hath added latelie to the former : And these not onelie in printed bookes , the high commission & sermons in the court , city , vniversity , & cuntry averred , but also allowed them by publick authority : among sundry other . Romish erronious positions these . p p Sec Chowne , Reeve , Pocklinton , Heylen , B. White , B. Mountagùe , Shelford , P●imerose , Laurence , Studly , Coale from the Altar , Bishcp Wren , & other Prelates their visitation Articles .

The Church of Rome is a true Church : That she hath neuer erred in fundamentals , no not in the worse times ; That personal succession of Bishops is requisite and essential to make a true Church ; That the Archbishops and Bishops of England deriue their lineal successions and Episcopal dignitie from St. Peters Chaire , and the verie Sea of Rome , and that we should not acknowleidge them for Bishops in case they either did not , or could not doe soe . That the Pope of Rome or papacy is not the Antichrist , nor Antichrist yet come , or reuealed ; That Crucifixes and Images in Churches are lawfull , and necessarie comlie ornaments ; That Christ is really present vpon earth on the high Altar and Communion table ; That Communion tables are Altars ; Ministers of the Gospel , Priects serving at the Altar , the Sacrament of the Lords supper , the Sacrament of the Altar , and may yea ought so to be phrased , That men ought to bow to Altars & Communion-tables , and to place & rayle them in Altar-wise at the east end of the Church , and come up to them , and receiue when there is a Sacrament , and that Ministers must read their second seruise at them when there is none . That auricular confession to a Preist and absolution are very fitting and necessarie ; That the Lords day is no Sabbath ; That it is lewish to call it or keepe it as a Sabbath ; That it is not of divine , but humaine institution , not with in the morality of the 4. commaundement ; That two howres only of it , is to be sanctified , not the whole day ; That Morises , dauncing , sports and pastimes ( yea labours of mens calling , not speciallie prohibited by 〈◊〉 : ●●maine lawes , even out of cases of necessitie ) are lawfull on it . That men may fall totally & finally from Grace ; That they haue freewill , and may exactly fulfill the Law of God if they please themselves ; That men are justified by workes , yea by charitie , and not by faith alone ; That men are elected from the foresight of faith and workes , and reprobated only out of the foresight of their sinnes ; That there is a vniversall grace given to all men whereby they may be saued if they will ; That Christ died alike for all men whatsoeuer ; That preaching is an extraordinary thing * * Welfare the Bishops who are true to their ground , for it is an extraordinary thing with them to proach . only for extraordinary times , and belonging to none but extraordinary men ; That one Sermon in a month is enough , and better then two a day ; That reading is properly preaching ; That Archbishops & Bishops Episcopall jurisdiction and degree aboue other Ministers is jure divino ; That the Ministers know more then the Lay-people , the Bishops more then the Ministers , the Archbishops more then the Bishops ; And therefore what ever the Ministers shall teach or prescribe the people , what ever the Bishops , the Ministers & people , what ever the Archbishops , the Bishops , Mininisters & people too , are bound to beleeve & obey without further question or dispute ; That the Popes Lawes , Decrees , & Canon Lawes are still in force , & our Church ought to be governed by them , & our Ecclesiasticall Courts proceed lecally according to them ; That Bishops have power to make & publish Articles , Canons , Injunctions , Oathes , Rites , Ceremonies , in their owne names & rights , and to enforce both Ministers & people to obey them ; That they may silence , suspend & excommunicate , ( yea deprive & imprison ) Ministers at their at their pleasure without any legall cause .

That Bishops are not bound to preach so much , or so oft as other men , ( though they have greater wages , and so should doe more worke . )

That they may Lawfully and laudablie neglect their spirituall functions , to mannage temporall Offices and affaires , exercise both Swords at once , and rule both Church and State together .

Now , that the Reader may be sure , what I here set downe is true , let him peruse a Booke entituled the Quench-Coale , and there he shall finde all these Assertions affirmed , in an Epistle written unto the King .

5. Whereas he saith , in a Church that is false in respect of outward Order , there may be taught many sound and seasonable truths .

This I grant , for Iesuites and other Heretickes , deliver oft-times many true Doctrines : And what of this , may we therefore Lawfully heare them ? In no cause ; For as one a a Vsus est Nabuchodonosor Musicis Instrumentis in erectione statuae , ut homines ad ejus honorem & venerationem excitaret . Pintus Comment. in Dan. cap. 3. pag. 195. saith of the Musicall Instruments which Nabuchadnezzar had in the plaine of Dura , they were brought thither , that men thereby might be the sooner drawne to honour and worship the goulden Image . So truly are the Truths taught in false Churches , a bewitching Musick to lead people unto them , and to cause them to fall downe before the Idols of the place , set up by Worldly Princes , against the expresse Commaundement of Iesus Christ .

Againe , howsover the Priests he pleads for , Preach sometime sound truths , notwithstanding otherwhile they speake vaine and foolish things .

Mr. Fox b b Acts & Monum . pag. 1027 reports of one Hostius , who being in Gaunt , was tould that a certaine Fryer there , used to preach good and sound Doctrine : But when he came to his Church , he heard him justifie Transubstantion , and nothing else .

And the like comes many times to passe , that men reputed rare Preachers , make whole Sermons in defence of grosse Idolatry , and speake most reproachfully against the way and worship of God .

This being so , I would know of the Pist : if a man be present , when such blasphemous Positions are delivered , whether he offend . If he say , No , then it followes that a man may heare any one and any where , and his distinction between hearing this Priest , and not that , is ( nihil adversum ) impertinent and idle . If he say Yes , then it must follow ( from his owne grant ) that no fal●e Minister is to be heard , unlesse a man know before hand , that he will not speake perverse things .

SECTION . 4.

THat the Church here pleaded for , is Antichristian and false : the Epist: doth acknowledge . Yet ( saith he ) that worshipping of God , which consisteth in hearing his Word , is warrantable for us to doe there : And so much he undertakes to prove by this Argument .

That Preaching which ordinarily begits men to the faith of Christ , may lawfully be heard .

But the Preaching of many Ministers in the Church of England hath and doth ordinarily beget men to the faith of Christ .

Therefore the Preaching of many Ministers in England may lawfully be heard .

The first part of this sillogisme is proved out of Rom. 10. Where the Apostle telling what is the ordinary way God used to beget men to the faith of Christ telles us , it comes by hearing of the word of God preached , if faith comes by hearing the Word of God preached ( to wit , if that be the outward meanes ) then there is no question but that a man may heare such preaching , and any man may blush for shame , that shall deny this : So that the major part of the Argument is cleare :

And for the Minor parte they can not deny it , no more then a man at noon day can deny the sunne to shine : for if any man make question whether faith comes ordinarily by the preaching and hearing in England , it is a great question whether they euer had faith or no : yet because some are so grosse as to deny this , we will therefore : proue the contrarie by this Argument : Ne puero gladium .

That preaching and hearing which makes them which were altogether carnal , & so not capable of a church estate , to become saints & so fit for a church-estate : That preaching must needs beget men to the faith .

But the preaching and hearing in England , made them that were unfit and carnall to become saints , and so fit members to the true Church , which were not so before .

Therefore the preaching in England and hearing the same doth beget men to the faith . That the preaching and hearing in England hath done this : Witnesse the Church of Leyden and of Amstelredam .

I cannot say of this mans Logick , as Aristotle a a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . did of Theodorus his making of Epethites , it is his whole art . But rather if that be true , the Bird b b E cantu dignoscitur avis . is knowen by her singing , then the Publisher is very unskilfull this way .

Touching his Sillogisme , the same is many waves peccant , as I shall make it obvious and cleare in the particulars following .

1. To reason from the effect of things is unsound and unconcludeable by the Scriptures : This is , as if a man would say , the Midwives c c Exo. 1 , 9 which lyed unto Pharaoh , did mvch good to the Israelites : Therefore they did well to Lie .

It hath been ( saith Cartwright d d First repl. against D. Whitg . p. 79. the manner alwayes of wise and learned men to esteeme of things by the causes and not by the event : And that especially in matters of Religion . D. Twist e e The Doctrine of the Synod of Dort & Arles reduced to practice , p. 5. 6. in his reply to the Arminians : cals it a strange course , because a thing is usefull , therefore it is to be concluded that it is true : And a litle after , they that doe such things manifest hereby ( saith he ) that their case is desperate , and that they have very litle or no ground for their opinion out of the Word of God .

And this no doubt is most true , touching the Pist : For were he able to prove the hearing in question lawfull , he would not have published ( as here he doth ) so vaine a reason : Or rather indeed that which hath no weaght of reason in it .

Tertullian , f f De praescript . advers. haerec . Epiphanius , g g Haer. 38 , p. 124. Irenaeus h h L. 1. c. 16. and 17. and other Ancients : make mention of a Sect , named Cains , which held that ludas did well to betray Christ : The reason they render for it , is the same which the Pist : here brings for the hearing of false Ministers : To wit , the good effect * * Quoniam per ipsum parata est nobis crucis salus , & per hoc propositum supernorum revelatio . , that followed upon it . Thus he gratifies vile Hereticks , in raking up their old ground , to build his new errour upon .

2. Seeing this practice of hearing , is condemned by the Scriptures : should it be granted ( the which I deny ) that ordinarilie their preaching begits men to the faith : yet his proposition is unsound : For no evill may be done that good may come of it . k k Rom. 2 , 8 No , not the least to procure : he greatest good ; that is a true saying : E malis nullum . May not I lend God a lie l l Iob. 3 , 7 for his glorie : Much lesse doe any other evill for any other whatsover . As well the meanes ( saith one m m D. Slater Expos. on Rom. 3 , v. 8 , pag. 308. ) as the meaning must be good . i i Hos. 4. 15 , Mat. 7 Rev. 18 4 Son . 1 , 7. So writes Pareus , n n In Rom. 3. v. 8 , ad bonum finem , bona & legittima requirantur media . Timpler , o o Exerc. Philos. Sect. de act. h●man . nat. quest. Lavater . p p Comment. Iosh. c. 2 , hom. 8 , fol. 10. Vnto a good end , lawfull and good wayes and meanes are required . The reason is , ( q q D. Willet . Comment. in Rom. 3 , Quest. 12 , p. 154. Par: no sinne is eligible ; for whatsoever is eligible , and to be made chose off is good , but sinne is no wayes good , for then it should not be sinne .

Moreover , according to this mans Argument , men may commit Schismes and Heresies , for good comes of them ; namelie , a clearer Illustration of Orthodoxall verity : So they may lie , steale , committ adultery , &c. because of some following good effects : Which is the glorie of Gods wisedome in his mercie towards the elect , and justice upon the reprobates .

But this I know he likes not : Notwithstanding his and it ( pedes ad caput ) for the matter of reasoning is all one : For thus he disputeth ; If the effects of false Ministers prove good : Then may they lawfully be heard : But the first is true : Therefore the second .

But stay , the consequence followes not : For non mox bonum est , ex quo bonum sequitur ; sayth a judicious Writer . r r Comment , in 1 Cor. 11. We may not straight way say the thing is good , because good followed of it .

As for the good effect it is not perse , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : But ex accidente , as Logicians s s Dionis . Areopag . c. 4 , de divin . nom : Fr. Pieolomen . in Doct. Ethica Rod. Goclen . cont . Philos. Theol. par. 3 , p. 85 , Keckerm . Syst. log . l. 1 , c. 13. phrase it , By an accident . It cometh , sayth Lyran , t t In Rom. 6 , ver. 1 , ex bonitate Dei , qui bona elicit ex malis . The like sayth Theodoret. v v Lib. de providenc . fol. 85. ) Deus malis ad bonum aliquod utitur . So Paez x x Cantic . Moys . Text. 4. An̄ot . 1 , p. 67. peccata a Deo ordinantur in bonum .

To conclude though in evils of punishment , we may chuse a lesser to shunne a greater . Yet in evils of fault election hath no place . For Divines y y Dispute against Eng. Popish Ceremon . part. 2 , ch. 1 , pag. 10 , hold absolutely , that no thing which is evill in the use of it , may be done , either for prevention of evill , or for any good whatsoever , inter duo vel plura mala culpae sayth Alsted z z Theol , Cas. cap : 12 , p : 210 , nullum est eligendum . And Pareus a a In Rom: 3 , 8. the like : Nec ullum admittendum malum , ut even iat aliquod bonum , sive per se , sive per accidens .

3. The maine drift and scope of his reason , is not onlie untrue ; But indeed very daungerous , to say no worse of it , as rending to restraine people from hearing the true Ministers of Christ . And that this is so , I prove it thus . That preaching which hath not , or doth not ordinarily begit men to the Faith of Christ , may not lawfully be heard . But the preaching of many true Ministers in their Congregations neither hath , nor doth ordinarily begit men to the Faith of Christ ; Ergo , &c.

If his Argument in the affirmative be true : Tam forma , quam materia ; To say nothing of mood and figure . Then in the negative this is true also , according to that knowne rule , parium par est ratio : There is alike reason of things alike . So in the Philosopher : b b Arist: Eth: c. ● Contrariorum est eadem ratio . For instance , let it be in the affirmative thus ; The godly please God ; Must it not on the contrarie follow : The ungodly displease God .

To applie this : If this be a reason and ground , why some Ministers ought to be heard ; Namely , because true conversion ordinarily followeth their Ministerie . If this [ I say ] be a main cause that they should be heard ; Then surely it must follow : Where such effects of ordinary conversion appeare not ; There must be no hearing . I say such Ministers are to be rejected , be they in their places never so painfull and conscionable .

This being so , marke the inference : Noah preached a 120 yeares , and yet there followed no ordinarie conversion in the old World . The like may be said of Elias , Isaiah , Ieremie , Ezechiel , and other Prophers ; Therefore it was not lawfull to heare them .

Hath not the Pist : here shewed himselfe an acute disputer ; For to build Babel , he puls downe Bethel ; To justifie false Prophets , he condemnes the true . In a word , whiles he seekes to open a doore unto the Synagogues of Satan , he shutteth up the way & passage unto the Courts of the Lord of Hoast . Had he thought on the Wisemans c c P●o : 16 , 20 saying , I thinke he would not have written so unaduisedly . He that handleth a matter wisely , shall find good .

4. For the proofe of his Major , there is not one sound sentence in it .

For 1. touching the disdiapason or il-favoured coupling of the matter . The Scripture he alleadgeth is Rom. 10 , vers. 17. Fayth commeth by hearing the Word of God . Now , what of this ? His Argument hence is not proved , neither doth this place , Rom. 10. look that way . For example , suppose I should lay downe this Position , the ordinarie way to have right , between man and man , is to seeke unto the lawfull Magistrate : Would any one ( unlesse he had Boeoticu●n ingenium ) hence inferre , that those who had right ordinarilie done them by Vsurpers and Tyrants , did well to take it .

2. The hearing there mentioned , is not ( as the Pist : imagineth ) a hearing promiscuously of all preachers , but it respects such only , as ( legitime vocati ) have a true outward calling to the Ministerie . Thus Tertsllian d d Lib. cont . Mareien . , Danaeus e e Comment. in 1. Tim. 5 22. , O●colampadius f f In Esae 52 , Mayer g g On Iam. 3 , Doct 3 , p. 179. , Pareus h h On the place . , Guiliaudus i i Id. , Beza k k Jd. , Piscator l l In Rom. 10. Obser . in ver. 17. , and others understand the place ; Therefore should his words be cast into a forme , the very expression wil be confutation enought ; For so they must runne . If the Apostle , Rom. 10 , say , that the ordinarie meanes of mens conversion is by hearing the lawfull Ministers of the Gospell ; Then may unlawfull Ministers be heard ; If he can make it hang otherwise , he were best to doe it , and save his credit what he can .

Thirdly , Paul Rom. 10 , speaketh of the ordinarie way , which God hath ordained to begit faith ; But the practice here stood for by the Publish . is quite another thing : Even a tempting of God ; For as the Learned n n Muscul . in Mat. 4 , Tom. 1 , p. 47. Moller . in Psa. 78 , v. 18. p. 684. P. Mart. Loc. Com. Clas. 2 , c. 4 , p. 209. Polan . Syntag. l. 9 , c. 8 , P. 596. well observe , God is tempted , when men , leaving the ordinary and appointed meanes , use their owne devise ; to obtaine either spirituall or temporall good thereby .

That this hearing is so , we have in part proved , and more will , if God permitt .

Now , for his Minor . 1. All Sects doe boast of the effects of their Ministerie in converting men unto Christianitie . Bellarmine o o De not . Eccles. lib. 4 , c. 12 tels us , that Iew●s Gentles , and Turkes too , are converted in multitudes by their Church . Another p p Masse-Priests supplication to the King , Sect. 31. layes downe the particulars , viz. Bessites , Dacians , Getes , Scythians , Morins , Nervians , Armenians , Huns , Burgunnians , Scots , French Pictes , Bavartans , and well nigh an hundred other Nations are there reckoned up . The Arrians in old time sayd q q Freculphus in Chronico Tom. 2 , l. 4 , c. 20. no lesse : By their Ministers the Gothes and others , were turned to the sayth from Paganisme . But this is not proved or true , because they say so .

2. If it were needfull , I could bring their owne testimony against him . For ( to use Mr. Robinsons r r Justificat . Separ . p. 51. words ) there is nothing more common both in the Sermons and Writings of the forewarder sort , then their complaints how litle good their preaching hath done . For Example , marke what some Ministers of good note among them doe affirme .

This J dare warrant ( sayth Mr. Gifford s s Countrie Divinity , fol. 48. ) if it be not so let me loose both my eares , that goe through the Parishes of these graue and learned Divines , and unlesse such as runne to such their victuals otherwhere , ye shall not find five among five skore , which are able to understand the necessary grounds and principles of religion . Another t t Catholike Conference , p. 164. saith more : Were it not for the good Làwes of our Kingdome , which doe constraine and compell men to make outward profession , the greater number of our people of all sorts in this Iland , would makè none at all . Mr. Nichols v v P. 218. in his Plea of the innocent , reports , that conferring with the particular persons in his Parish ( after he had preached some good space among them ) about the means of salvation , of 400 Communicants be scarce found one , but that thought and professed a man might be saved by his owne weldoing , and that he trusted he did so live , that by Gods grace he should obtaine everlasting life , by serving God and good Prayers .

This being so , what credit is to be given to the Pist: Minor . Seeing the men he speakes for , give in their evidence and witnesse against him .

3. Howsoever many liuing in jdola●rous places are converted ; yet how knowes he , that the preaching in question doth it . For private men & wemon , may & doe turne their neighbours from evil , & that ordinarilie : som●●ime by teaching , & witnessing the truth , otherwhile by reading , talking , conferring of the Scripture , informing their Children and family in the fayth . And this the Scripture x x Levit. k. 27 , 28 , Prov. 31. 26 , Ma●. 3 , 16 , Mat. 18 , 15 , Iam. 5 , 19 , 20 , 1 Cor. 14 , 24 , Act. 8 , 4 , 26 , 1 Cor. 7. 16 , Ephes. 64 , Deu. 6 , 7. shewes , and the Treatiser y y Iustif . Sep. p. 457 , acknowledgeth ; D. Fulke z z In Rom. 10 , ver. 15 , in his answer to the Rhemists , sheweth out of Ruffinus ; how divers great Nations have beene converted by men and women out of office : As a great Nation of the Indians , by Aedesius & Frumentius ; The Country of Iberians by a captive woman .

And here by the way , this may serve to his demaund : Let them tell us where they have received their faith ? We answer , the wind bloweth where it listoth . Sure we are , faith we had , when we left our unsanctified standings there ; But if any should hence affirme , that we had it by hearing false Ministers , he should shew follie and rashnes . Secret things a a Deu. 29 , 29. belong to the Lord ; Quae supra nos nihil ad nos . Augustine b b Melius est dubitare de occultis , quam litagare de incertis Lib , 8 , c. 5. de Trinit. adviseth us well : It is better to doubt of secret things , then to strive for uncertainè things .

If the Pist : had minded this , I thinke he would not have written so peremptorie in a matter unknowne .

4. Where reads he in ▪ Gods Booke , that men are named visible saints , and judged firt matter for Church estate , they being in the mean while actually members of false Churches , and practise dayly grosse idolatry .

I thinke with the Treatiser c c Iustific . Separ . pag. 269. , true visible Christians , have Christ for their King , visibly or in outward appearance , & so far forth as men can judge : ( For by visible , we mean that which may be seen of men , opposed to invisible which only God seeth , ) for Christ is not divided , but looke to whom he is a Priest to save them , and a Prophet to teach them , to the same persons he is also a King to reigne over them .

That Christ then should be said to be a King , unto any people continuing members of Antichrists Kingdome : Or that such ought to be deemed visible saints , and firt matter for a true Church , which live under a false Ministerie , Worship ; and Government . For my part , as yet I cannot see reason for it ; But thinke the word is against it . * * Rev. 14 , 45 , Ephes. 2 , 20. Deu. 33 , 3 Esa. 4 , 34 , Rom. 1 , 7. 1 Cor. 1 , 2 Philip. 1. 1

If a man should give up his name unto a Vsurper , take his part , obey his precepts , joyne with him in rebellion and treason ? May he for all this , be counted ( and that justly ) a visible good subject unto his King . To me it is fide majus .

For his wordy and windy insultation ; That any man may blush for shame that shall deny this ; I passe it by , wishing him hereafter to lay things downe according to allegata probata ; Let the Scripture speake d d Sanctis Scripturis non loquentibus quis loquitur ; Ambr. de vocat . Gent. l , 2 , c. 3 , Tom. 2. in the points between us : For without it , nothing is to be affirmed e e Omne quod loquimur debemus affamare de Scripturis sanctis . Hierom. in Ps. 98 Tom. 8. : and beyond it , nothing to be concluded f f Nihil ultra quam sacris literis proditum est definiendum . Erasm . in Hiliar . : Gods word alone is certaine , other proofes uncertaine and false , if they discent from it . g g Solum Dei verbum certum : caetera falsa si dissentiant . Ferus in Epist. ad Roma . c. 3. p. 303.

5. Howsoever it is true ( as Polanus h h Comment. in Ezech. cap. 16 , pag. 365. , Deering i i 23. Lecture on Epistle to the Hebr. , Whitaker k k Rom. Pont. Cont. 4 Quaest. 5 , pag. 681. , and others say ) in a false Church by the preaching there , some sometimes are brought to the faith : yet ( with these ) I deny , that this is an ordinarie worke , but rather extraordinarie ; The reason is , because their hearers generally by their Doctrines , are kept in blindnes , idolatry , wilworship , &c. So that they fit not members to true Churches , but unfit them rather ; For no sooner see they a man to set his face that way , but they seeke immediately , to keepe him from it ( nolens volens ) either by flatterie , persecution or the like .

Lastly , if there be any weaght of reason in his words , they make then against himselfe , and quite overthrow his owne cause . And thus I prove it : No man can lawfully heare false Ministers , unlesse he know before hand that they have and doe ordinarily begit men to the faith : But such fore-knowledge is not to be had : Ergo , &c.

The proposition is certaine by his owne grant ; For the maine ground whereon the whole weaght of his matter relyeth , is this , viz: that some Antichristian Ministers ought to be heard , because they have and doe ordinarily begit men to the Faith : Now , this must needs be understood of that which is visible , for otherwise ( n●que Coelum neque terram attingit ) he speakes idly and from the point .

The Assumption cannot possiblie be denyed , except men wil be senceles ; For who can say upon certaine knowledge , that any false Minister in the world , hath and doth ordinarily begit men to the faith . Thus the man is snared in his owne words ; And may say with the Poet : Heu patior telis vulnera facta meis .

Before I end this point , I thinke i● good to present here unto the Readers view , one observation or two , from the Pist : Argument .

1. Howsoever he sayth but litle , yet that which he sayth is so abstruse , darke , full of evasions and starting holes , as a man cannot tell what to make of it . He sends us to the effect of preaching : But to what end is this ? What light ? What information can a man take hence : considering that as God is the Authour of true faith , so the time , instruments , meanes , &c. by which he exhibiteth it unto man , is knowne only to himselfe , and not to others of others .

Indeed here we may observe a cleare difference between truth & falsehood ; Between Christs institutions , and mans inventions . Whatsoever God will have us to doe , or not doe , he layes downe the same openly , precisely , manifestly : All the words l l Pro. 8. 9. of his mouth are plaine unto him that understandeth . The spirit speaketh expresly : m m 1. Tim. 4 , 1. Non obscurè , & in voluiè : Sed manifestè , praecriptè , praecise , sayth Guilia●dus . n n Comment. on good the place . Whereunto accordeth Augustine : o o Divinitus visum est , ut sacra Oracula simplici & pershicuo exararentur dictionu ●enere , ne praetendere quisquam possit nihil a se , in illis intelligs Ad vonsianum It was thought good unto Almighty God , that the Scriptures should be penned in a simple and plaine kind of speach , least any man should pretend , that he could understand nothing in them . Another p p Sam: Bachiler Serm. Campe Royall , p. 36. Gods Oracles are plaine , and labour with no ambiguities , like those of Pyrrhus , and Croesus , whereof no certaine meaning could be gathered .

That the truth is simple and plaine , Ethnickes by the light of nature , could sufficiently see into such things . One of them touching this matter , saith thus : q q Veritatis sermo est simplex & apertus nec varijs indiget explicationibus & ambagibus ; sed iniusta causa cum per se sit morbida , necessario indiget astutis pharmacis . Euripid. The truth is simple and plaine , and needeth is not variety of windlaces and fe●chings of matter about the bush : But an evill cause in that it is sick and deseased , hath need to have a cunning plaster set unto it . Another r r Aristo . of them hath these words : That phrase and forme of speaking hath truth in it , which is common and used of all , having in it nothing craftily devised , neither cloking some other thing then is professed .

Contrariwise when Satan speaketh by his instruments , he speaketh so ambiguously and clokedly , as fitly , that of Apollos Oracle may be applied to it : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . * * Quod ambiguis ambagibus responsa consulentibus daret . For one knowes not how to take it , nor which way to apply it . Pertinently to this purpose writes Sibelius s s Desacrific . Abra. p. 56 , 57. : Humaine Doctrines are various and ambiguous , wrapped and foalded with abstruse labrynths of opinions , whereby peoples minds are so troubled and tyred , that they cannot plainly open themselves , neither have any quietnes , or come to their desired end . But the Doctrine of God is right , that is , plaine and perspicuous , not wrapped with un-even and crooked suttleries and delusions of Sophistrie , neither leads us into by-pathes and errours ; but bringeth peace to the conscience , ad removeth àll scruples and doubts : So he .

Sadeel t t Opera Theol Pref. de Meth. Theol. disput. Error . 3. p. 8. writing of deceivers , & the sundry wayes they use to beguile the simple : Notes them to be men affecting darke sayings , and seeking by mists and fogges of strange & unfamiliar arguments , to blind their spirituall eyes , and puzzle their understandings . And this is no late devise ; For Augustine in his Booke of Heresies maketh mention of the Hereticks Marcitae , so named of one Marcus . And touching them , thus I find it written : v v Obscurissime & quibusdam verborum tanquam misteriorum in volueris utentes loquebantur de Deo , ut stuperent audientes homines , potius quam intelligerent . They did speake darkly , and used such a wrapping kind of words , that the hearers were rather astonied with the strangnes of the words , then edified with any understanding they had of the meaning thereof .

The thing being thus , the Reader hence ( as by a light ) may gready helpe himselfe to discerne , on whose side the truth is , in the difference between us . Our dispute is about Church-hearing : We say , that Christians are bound to performe this service unto God , in true constituted Churches ; There ( we say ) must men heare the whole Counsell of God , taught unto them , either by lawfull Ministers , or by Brethren out of office ; For confirmation hereof , we can produce many divine precepts ; Also the Example and practice of our forefathers from the first age of the word hitherto . Besides , this is a Position , so certaine and cleare , as it is holden in all Schooles , written continually in Bookes , preached every day in Sermons , taught in all Churches : So that ( haec Momo ipsi satisfaciant ) no body can speake against it . Danaeus in August . haer .

Our Opposites howbeit they grant us this , yet affirme that in false Churches Antichristian Ministers may be heard also : * * Pag. 3. And this is not only ( they say ) lawfull , but in some cases necessary for all , of all Sects and sorts of Christians , having opportunity and occasion of so doing .

This indeed they say ? But how prove they it to be true ? Not by any law of God taken out of the old or new Testament : For that they cannot doe ; Not by any holy mans Example , for they know there is none extant ? Not by any sound consequence rightly drawne from the Scripture , for ( quid si Caelum ruat x x Teren. in Heautont . ) that is impossible . What doe they then ? as Ieremy y y Ier. 2 , 13. sayth , they forsake the fountaine of living waters , and hew them out cesternes , broken cèsternes that can hold no waters .

They devise certaine obstruse , darke and ambiguous phrases and distinctions : As of naturall hearing in a Church , and of a hearing wherein there is Communion : Of some Churches , false in respect of order : Others in respect of fayth and order : of hearing false Ministers , not ( quatenus ) as they are false Ministers , or their Ministers , but as men gyfeed and the Bishops Ministers : of certaine effects which followes mens teaching , &c.

Thus their proofes are only their bare and bould affirmation : For leaving the Scriptures , they use Paralogismes , fond cavils , and false arguments . The which course not only shewes an il case , but also manifesteth , that the embracers thereof , are either ignorant people who cannot judge of things that differ , or some , that have some mens persons in admiration : Or such as are unwilling to suffer affliction with the people of God .

I could here mention some other devises in this kind ; as an implicit Church-covenant . A true outward calling which some have , to the Ministery from their Congregation , but secret and unknowne either to the Minister or the people .

But I will at this time abstaine from such by-controversies , and the rather because I shall have a firt occasion to speake hereafter of it ; Namely , when the Vndertakers have finished their answer to my former Booke , and Mr. Davenport published his many things that he hath to say against it . For so much he insinuateth in his Treatise betweene him and Mr. Pagit . * * Pag. 282 283.

2. Observe againe , to what grosse absurdities his argument leadeth ; For unles it be only wind and vanitie , these sweet collections must needs follow . 1. No Minister comming newly to his place , is to be heard . 2. Before any are , inquirie must be made , whether they ordinarily begit men to the faith . 3. If after triall it be found , that they doe not so , then they must not be heard what true Doctrines soever they teach .

Is not this workman-like done ? ( say Reader ) hath not the Pist: ( omne tulit punctum ) made the way cleare now , for the hearing of false Ministers ? Truely I thinke , except a man be partiall in the point : And of his mind who said : z z Non persuade bis e●i imsi persuaseris . Though you doe convince me , yet I will not be convinced ; He must acknowledge , that he hath made it doubt fuller then ever it was , and such as were not well satisfied formerly in the thing , have enought here from his owne pen , to put them quite and wholy off .

SECTION . 5.

THe Pist : having done with his Logick : comes in the next place to charge his Opposites , with contradiction , absurdity , and speaking little better then Blasphemy . A great fault , if true ; But how doth he prove it ? They say , it is not the Word of God , as it is preached in Antichristian Assemblies .

Answ. The Publish : had done well , if he had published out assertion ( de manu in manum , ) truely and faithfully . But seeing he hath not done so , I will here lay it downe ; Thus it is : The word preched by false Ministers , is not that word unto which God hath promised a blèssing of increase . Or it is not the ordinary way and meanes which the Scriptures speakes of , to begit men to the faith . Had he so alleadged it , he might well have held his tongue , and not talke so vainly as he doth , of Gods Word , if Mr. Canne shall preach it ; And none of Gods Word , if another doe preach the same . For our difference is not about the Word simply , as it stands in sillables and letters ; But rather in respects the time and place preached in , and the persons preached by and to ; That is , as the one beeing an ordinance of Christ , the other of Antichrist ; As the one ( that is the word preached in a lawfull office ) beeing like Mount Gerizim under the blessing ; The other like Mount Ebol under the curse .

I will expresse this paticular more fully in this manner , put the case , a Companie of Rebels going apart , should take with them the Statute-booke of the Realme , and set up among them , one or more to administer civil justice according the contents thereo● , now though no man can denie but this is the Kings Law which they have , yet as they administer it , so it is not his Law , or more plainly , that is not his Law , which they administer , neither may any good subject in such a case receive any administration at their hands .

The holy Vessels in Babilon were the Lords still , yet the Israelites there , might not make any religious use of them ; So in spirituall Babilon , the Bible there is Gods Booke ; Neverthelesse the Godly are forbidden to goe thether , to heare it , either read or taught to them .

We finde under the Law a difference between the Creatures , some are said to be clean , others not ; But how comes this ? Not of themselves , for so nothing is evill or uncleane ; ( for all Gods Workes were created good ; a a Gen. 1. ult. But in respect of the use forbidden : So thouching Gods Word preached , in one respect it is pure , in another not ? How ●o ? Not but the Word in itselfe is still good and true . The difference is , because of Gods Commaundement , he having as flatly forbidden the use of it ( taught or heard ) in false Churches , as he did some beasts under the Law . b b I would haue the Pist: to tell me , what contradiction , absurditie , or blasphemy it is to say : though Circumcision in itself were of God : yet as it was used in the false Church under the Kings of Israel : It was none of Gods ordinance ; If was Gods ordinance , if a true Minister in Gods Church administred it ; But if a Priest of Ieroboams making did administer the same , It was none of Gods Ordinance .

I wish therefore the Reader , to note in what respect we place our difference , between the Word preached in a true Church and in a false Church ; We say in the one ( that is in the true Church ) it is cleane . In the other , we say it is not : Neverthelesse , if it be considered , as God is the authour of the whole Scripture ; And as it containes words and sentences , so we say , it is all cleane and good ; The reason then , why we say their preaching is uncleane , is in the same respect , that some creatures were uncleane under the Law ; Namely , in respect of the use forbidden .

As the tree of knowledge of good and evill , hurt not of itselfe , I mean the fruit , but the transgression after the commaundement , the thing in itselfe good , but the use forbidden ; So Gods Word in false Churches ( as that fruit ) in itselfe is good , but the use there prohibited .

And because the Publish : takes it so ill , that any difference should be put between the same word preached in Bethel and Babilon . I will ( to appease him ) adde one word more . As a false and forged Constitution , makes a Church a reall and substanciall Idoll ; So all that comes from it , is touched with the Idolatry of that Constitution . This is a ruled opinion of many Divines , the State makes all the publick actions to be formally good or evill ; For as the Temple c c Matt. 23 , 17 , 19. sanctifieth the gould , the Altar the offrings ; So the ordinances of the Church under the Gospell , are sanctified to us ; That is ( as Bucer d d In Mat , 23 , v. 17. truely speaketh ) in the use of them made lawfull to us , in that they have their Ryse , from a true and right Power .

Seeing then the Church in Question , wants a right Constitution , it must follow , that all spirituall actions done in it , ( whether prayer , preaching Sacraments , Censures ) as they are there done , are none of Gods ordinances ; though true it is , in themselves they are of God . Yet I say , as the Word is there preached , the Sacraments there administred , &c. So they are not his ; I say not his , though in outward performances they are practised , as in true Churches . But of this more in another place . e e Jn defence of Object. 15.

Another thing for which he blames his Opposites , is , their misapplying the Example of Nadab and Abihu ; I will here set downe their words , as he reports them , and his answer thereunto .

It was true incense which Nadab and Abihu tooke , to offer up to the Lord , but because they tooke strange fire ; and not the fire which was from the Altar , as the Lord had appointed , therefore the Lord sent a fire to destroy them : So say they , it is the true Word of God , which is preached in England , but because they preach the same by an unlawfull office , therefore the Lord abhorres it : A stranger collection I thinke can hardly be heard , for here strange fire is opposed to an unlawfull outward calling ; which nothing can be more absurd , for Nadab and Abihu had a true outward calling to Offer , they were the sonnes of Aaron ( saith the text ) therefore if any thing hence might be concluded , in just proportion , it must be to the Doctrine taught , and not in the least to the calling : So that we may from thence gather thus much , that if a Minister in regard of his outward calling true : shall teach any thing that is not from the Lord , they are to expect Gods judgement for the same , and more cannot hence be collected .

What Origen f f Non est periculum ut eis subvertuntum ullus fidelium , lib. 1 cont. Cels . said of Celsus workes , may fitly be applyed to this mans writings : There is no daunger , least any faithfull man should be subverted by them ; For he talketh and not reasoneth .

To answer : But are you in earnest , speake out aloud ? Can no more be concluded ? What ; will a little more be ( aliena are ) beyond the marke ; So you say ; But a stranger collection I thinke can hardly be heard ; Dicclare Teren. in And. For I dare say , you are alone ✴ ✴ Solus sapit . here in your opinion ; Learned men generally give a more●large exposition of the place .

The scope of that text , we are taught by an English Bishop , Babington , in his Notes on that place : We may hence learne and settle in our hearts , with what severitie the Lord challengeth and defendeth his authoritie , in laying downe the way and manner of his worship , not lea●ing it to any creature to meddle with , but according to praescription and appointment from him . Content he is , that men shall make Lawes for humaine matters , &c. But for his divine worship , he will prascribe it himselfe , and what he appointeth , that must be done , and that only , or else Nadah and Abihu their punishment exspected , that is , Gods wrath exspected in such manner as he shall please .

And this he learned of Calvin g g Alium ignom sacris adhiberi vetuit Deus , ut adventities omnes ritus excluderet , ac doceret , se detestari quic quid aliunde profectum erat . discamus ergo sic attendere ad Dei mandatum ne eius cultum ullis extraneis Commentin vitiemus . who upon the Place saith : God forbad other Fyre , &c. to be used , that he might exclude all inventious rites , and teach that he detested whatsoever was come from else-where . Let us therefore learne so to attend to the Commaundement of God , that we defile not his worship with any far fetched devises .

Iunius h h Peccatum in eo fuisse , q●od in ratione divini cultus non attenderint ad mandatum Dei , &c. Anal , in loc. mentioning their sinne , sayth : It was in that they kept not Gods Commaundement in the matter of his worship . And a little after : They should not have added of their owne any thing thereto .

Piscator i i Cultum Dei exten●●um praecise ex Dei praescriptum exercendum esse : itaque non habet hic locum bena hominum intentio . from the place , rayseth this observation : The outward worship of God must be strictly done according to his Commaundement : A good intention therefore hath here no place .

Mr. Attorsall also in his Commentarie upon Numb. 3. 4. doth largely declare out of this Example , how God disliketh and disclameth mens devises in his service , as trash , trumpery , and meere dotage . So Beda , Bruno , Brentius . Pelargus , Chytraeus , Sarcerius , S●rigelius , Aretius , Borrhaeus , and other interpret the place .

And whereas he applyeth it to false Doctrine taught by one that hath his outward calling true . He may say in the words of that boasting City : k I am , and there is none besides me ; For this is his owne devise , and it must live and die with them .

The place beeing thus understood ; Let us now see , if the same may not be ( ab uno de grammate ) fithe applyed against this practice of Hearing . From the place then I doe thus reason :

All will worship and superstition is sinne .

To heare Antichristian Ministers in their unlawfull assemblies is superstition and will-worship .

Therefore it is sinne to doe it .

The first Proposition is grounded upon the fore-mentioned example : Levit. 10. 1. 2. and the same is without exception . The second Proposition is thus proved .

1. Lib. 1. vit. ex : cult : oppose . Col. 501. 502. From the nature of superstition , which is , as Zanchy describes it a taking into the worship of God more then he requires in his worship .

Hence superstition ( as some derive the word ) is that which is done supra statutum ; And in this respect the hearing in question , is superstition , as beeing used in Gods worship , upon no other ground but mans devise .

2. According to the Schoolemen , m m Vel cui non debet , vel non e● modo quo debet . that is Superstition , when divine worship is not exhibited , either to the person it should be , or not in the way and manner as it ought . And this is held to be a sound truth by all Orthodoxal Writers .

Now , Aquin. 2. 20. q. 92. Art. 1. howsoever the Hearers of False Ministers doe exhibit worship to God , yet it is not in the manner and way that they should worship him : And this is cleare by the Treatisers owne confession ; For he confesseth that the hearing which he pleads for , n n Pag. 37 is no particular ordinance left by Christ . Againe , he saith : It were to be wished , that no Church Ministerie were to be found which is not approveable by the Word of God , notwithstanding any good act performed by them that posses it .

If I am not deceived , in these words he destroyes what he built before : Is this hearing no ordinance left us by Christ ? Is the controverted Ministerie so evil a thing , as that every good Christian is to pray for its rooting up ? How then can it be both lawfull and in cases necessary for all Sects and sorts of people to pertake with it . If this be not ( ex diametro ) crosse worke , and grosse contradiction , I know not what is .

3. This hearing cannot be free of superstition , in regard men are present at false worship ; The which presence ( as the Learned write o o Praesentia est communicatio quaedam in cultu , Slater . Epist. 1. ad Corinth . c. 10. ) is a certaine communion therewith .

4. It is great superstition to approve , countenance , or give honour to any of the wayes of Antichrist . They that are sincere Christians ( saith p p in Censura cap. 9. fol. 471. Bucer ) cannot abide any thing that is his . The least shew ( saith Vigandus q q Syneps . Antichrist ) to please either him or his followers , is will worship . Of this judgement were Iunius r r Jn Hos. 2. 16. , Musculus s s Loc. com . de ●radit . p. 421. 422. , Beza t t Tract . theol . vol. 3. pa. 210. , Mollerus u u In Ps. 16 , Zepperus x x de Polit. p. 72. , Sadeel y y Contr. Monachos p. 70. , and others .

Now , me thinkes there should not be a man so voyd of reason , as to say , that a Minister of Antichrist , as he is preaching by vertue of his Masters commission , and under his seale and authority , may even then be heard , and yet no honour , no approbation , no countenance , nor any shew thereof , be given unto Antichrist therein .

5. It is vitious and superstitious to simbolize with idolaters ; The Scriptures * * Levit. 18 , 3. Deu. 12. 30. Exo. 23. 24. 2 Chro. 13 9. Levit. 19. 27. 28 forbidd it . And the Saints in all ages have carefully shund it , as we shall shew in another place . But this Hearing is no other ; For idolaters in this , are imitated in sundry acts of their idolatrie ; In so much as Papists and Atheists too , may well twitt our balters in the words of the Samaritane woman , how is it that thou beeing a Christian joynest thy selfe to us Antichristians ? Is it not strange that thou who professest our Church to be false , our Ministerie unlawfull , our Church-government Popish , shouldest yet come to us , and pertake in our administrations ? Surely this argueth , that either thou understandest not the practice , which thy grounds lead thee too , or else for some by respect ; refusest to walke accordingly to them .

6. Superstition is committed , when more estimation is had of a thing , more dignitie and excellency placed in it , and more regard had to it , then God alloweth or can stand with his will revealed in his Word ; And so much Zanchy a a Lib. 1. de vit. ext . cult . oppos . col. 504. 505. proves by sundry instances ; In this regard also , hearing false Ministers , is supersticious , because that thing is honoured and embraced , which we finde not in the Scripture to be lawfull : and thus an idol is set up , tanquam Deus ex parte , though not vt Deus simpliciter .

Thus I have answered the Prefacer : Now , how he will take it , J know not . Cotis , a Thrasian King , breaking some vessels to pieces , was asked a reason ; He answered , that he might not be moved to anger at another for doing of it . Had the Epist: been so wise , as to have torne his writing himselfe , and so not published it , he would not ( as it may be he now will ) have been angry at another for laying open the weakenes and vanity of it .

AN Answer unto the Treatise .
SECT. 1.

WHen Satan cannot draw men to one extremitie , he seekes to bring them unto another . The truth of this , the Holie Scriptures a a 1 Cor. 5. 11. compare with 2 Cor. 2. 6 , 7. not only shew , but sundry examples also prove it in this present age .

It is true ( as the Treatiser saith ) there are many who affecting alienation from others , Numb. 14 35 , 45. make their differences as great , and their adverse opinion or practice as odious as they can . Deut. 1 , 42. 44. A moat shal be a beame with them , a knatt , a Camell . And hence through want of a take heed , they become rejecters of persons and things which they ought not .

Againe , on the other hand , there are not a few , who desiring liberty , and large walking , and to have the credit and love of all men , use all their witt , skill , & power , to have great things ( I meane evils and sinnes ) esteemed small things : And what is small , that nothing . That so they may finde a doore of entry , to accord and agree with others in unlawfull practises .

Here therefore is the wisedome of the Saints , namely , that they shunne both these two extremities . Medium tenuere beati . And for my part of this later number , I shall , while I live , professe my selfe ( by Gods grace ) be to both a Companion & guide : That is , not at any hand to condemne what is to be justified , neither to approve that thing which ought to be condemned .

There are two reasons laid downe by the Treatiser , wherefore he penned this discourse . 1. For the freeing of his owne conscience . 2. The information of other mens .

Answ. 1. J dare not thinke , but the Treatiser when he fell first upon this point of Hearing , spake as he thought of it , and did nothing but what his minde gave him to be right and good : But this makes not the thing therefore justifiable ; For as Martyr saith : b b Lex Dei is regula conscientiae . Loc. Comm. Class. 2. cap. 1. pag. 165. The Rule of our Conscience must be the Law of God . Gideons Ephod was erected with a well meaning minde , but it became a snare , c c ●udg. 8. 27. and a scandall , and an occasion of great idolatrie , and the overthrow and ruine of his whole familie . What hath this hearing been ? but a snare in Israel , an occasion whereby many people have turned aside from the streaght wayes of the Lord .

2. I doe not see what satisfaction any man can have from his writing : Seeing he hath not alleadged any one Sentence of Scripture to prove the point in question lawfull . Omne quod loquimur , debemus affirmare de Scriptur is Sanctis : saith Hierom in Psal. 98. Tom. 8. But this he hath not done , onely he tels us , that Hearing is a naturall action : Hearing is no Communion , &c. Now , where this so ( which is not in the sence he intendeth ) yet it serves not his turne in the least .

If a Theefe , to cleare himselfe , should say , that he hath not stolen such particulars : Yet if he have done other things , he is a Theefe notwithstanding . So in this case , thought to heare false Ministers , be not a sinne in such a respect : Yet if it be in some other , the action is neither Lawfull nor necessarie .

And here by the way , let me speake a word to you , whose warrant for your going unto unlawfull Assemblies , is only the Treatisers writing : This J doe affirme and will make good against all gainsayers , that if the thing could be justified , yet for his part he hath not proved it so , but hath left the point it selfe wholy untouch'd , and taken up a by-thing .

Therefore what Alcibiades said of the Athenians , I may well apply to you , You take things from other men , not by triall , but by trust , and doe them rather of affection and will , then out of any sure knowledge you have of the truth of them .

That the Treatiser made account to meet with Opposites , I marvaile not : Onely I marvaile , seeing he fore-saw so much , that he had not done his worke to some better purpose .

The first sort of Opposites are such who truly desire , Treat : and carefully indeavour to have their whole course both in Religion , and otherwise , framed by the holy and right Rule of Gods Word .

Answ. These cannot chuse but be his Opposites , and that for 3. reasons specially .

1. Because of his lightnes and inconstancie in the matters of God : and for that he seekes to build againe the thing which hee had before destroyed . What he hath said against this Hearing , the World is not ignorant of ; and therefore here is a fitt place to lay downe his own words , & to apply them to himself : He sucks up his former breath ; and eates the words he had formerly uttered , as though he had either forgotten what he wrote before , or cared not how he crossed himselfe , so he might oppose us . * * Iustificat . of Separ . p. 276.

2. Because the drift and scope of his writing , thwarteth the truth , and leadeth unto sinne against the Lord .

3. Causeth troubles in the Churches of God , and hinders many from receiving the love of the truth .

But did the Treatiser thinke , that the closest walkers with God , would oppose him in this thing ; Then it must needs follow , he made account , that the loosest people for judgement & practice would be the embracers of it .

A second sort is of them , Treat : whose tender and scrupulous conscience makes them fearefull & jealous of everything that hath in it the least appearance on shew of evill , &c.

Answ. He that will not fall into a deepe pit , will not come very neere to it in his travell .

Gods people ( saith Theodoret e e Comment. in Thes. 5 , 22. ) must be so abhorrent from evill , both in Doctrine and manners , that the shew of both ought to be avoyded . And thus the Scriptures f f 1 Thes. 5 , 22. Iam. 1 , 27. Iud. 23. Rev. 16 , 18. presse , and the Saints g g Dan. 1 , 8 Rev. 3 , 4. Luke 1 , 5. have practised .

For his distinction between things onely naturally good in their kinds and use , and others morallie , &c. I see nothing in it , wherefore he should desire the reader to take knowledge of it . For as for riches , credit of the World , and outward peace , here instanced , as they are good things in themselves , so they may be desired , and in a right way and course Lawfully sought after .

For the other , namelie , Hearing of the Word , obedience to the Magistrate , &c. In these things too , we must keepe our selves within the limits and bounds , which God hath set us . For his phrase of streaning and gooing as neere the Winde as may be , J hope he meant no streaning of a good conscience ; If he did not , then his counsell is of no use at all : except it could be proued , that the Lord requires his people to heare in the way and manner hee pleads for : a worke ( ab Asino lanam ) not possibly to be done .

As there are some scrupulous in things amisse touching outward Ordinances , and yet faultie otherwayes : So I beleeve there are many not scrupulous in things amisse touching outward ordinances , and yet in their course of life , base and scandalous enought .

But what of this , must not Gods House and Ordinances be deare to our soules , because some mens conversation is not according to their profession ? God forbid . For in the holiest Society upon Earth , it is possible that there should be wicked persons . When there was but 4 : in the World , one was a Kaan : when 8. onely in the Arke , one was a Cham : Among the 12. one a Iudas . The purest Wheate hath some chaffe with it ; The fairest garden some weeds in it ; Therefore let no man forbeare to practice any knowne truth for other mens lewd lives ; onely let them be carefull to doe well themselves : Mourne for such as doe otherwise , and seeke by all due and lawfull meanes their Amendment . And this is the burden , and no other , which the Lord layes upon them .

The last sort he divides into 5 rankes ; at which he either girds , or right-out chargeth , with Hypocrisie , partialitie , pride , ignorance , mallace , and the like .

It is said of Tamberlane * * Richard Knowles in the life of Baiazee that he raised warre against Baiazet the fourth King of the Turkes , because he refused to receive certaine strange Garments , which he sent unto him . I beleeve , had these men , embraced the Treatisers opinion in this point of Hearing , they should not have heard him speake so bitterly against them . But to the particulars .

Some are carried with so excessive admiration of some former guides in their course , Treat . as they thinke is halfe Heresy to call into question any of their determinations , or practises .

Answ. Howsoever we must live by our owne faith ; notwithstanding we are not lightly to esteeme of the determinations and practises of our guides , specially when we know they are no reeds ; but men stable and unchangeable in the truth . He is a foolish traviler that will leave the way which he hath long kept , unlesse he be sure , he is out . There is ( as Polanus h h Comment. in Ezech. cap. 20. pag. 487. saith ) a laudable imitation of Elders . That is , so farre to follow them , as they are followers of Christ .

2. J know none more faulty this way , then such as have learned of him to heare unlawfull Ministers : For were not these men superstitiously addicted to his new devise , they would beware , how to reject ( as they doe ) the unanimous judgement and practice of all Learned Men and true Churches , and follow the blinde trodd of his single opinion .

Such as lay downe rules to finde out the truth by , write thus : What the Fathers i i Quid-quid omnes pariter uno codemque consensu , &c. Vincent : Lirenens . cont . prophanos haeret . c. 4. all with one consent have held and written , is a necessary token to know the truth by .

Againe , k k D. Feild of the church , l. 3. c. 43 , p. 175 Whatsoever hath beene holden at all times , and in all places , by all Christians , that hath not beene noted for novelty , singularity and division is to be received as the undoubted truth of God .

If these Assertions be true , the Treatisers then is untrue . For not onely are all old Writers against it , but the most Learned of later times : Yea ( and let it be minded ) all Sects and sorts of people , professing Christianitie , abhorre it ; J except onely Familists : For they and he ( ●●dem in lud● docti , ) are for the pleading and practice here much alike .

Some againe are much addicted to themselves as the former to others : Treat : Conceiving in effect , though they will not professe it , the same of their Heads which the Papists doe of their Head the Pope , that they cannot erre or be deceived . And this specially in such matters us for which they have suffered trouble and affliction formerly .

Answ. 1. Wee are all more ready to blame faults in others , then to see our owne and amend them . Had not the Treatiser thought to well of himselfe , I doubt whether he would so lightly have singled himselfe out , and become ( as it were ) every mans opposite , Humble minds , are affraid to meddle with novelties : but such as seeke humane praise , imagine they cannot enought be observed , unlesse out of the dreggs of Sophistry , they raise some strange quiddities , whereby to crosse truths generally received .

2. That any man should love and like a thing , because it leads to persecution ; That J cannot thinke ; But this J thinke : There are some which doe professe & practice many things ( and namelie this of Hearing ) on no better ground or reason but hereby , to keep themselves out of troubles .

There is also a third sort who bend their force rather to the weakning of other men in their courses , Treat : then to the building up of themselves in their owne ; halfe imagining that they draw neere enought to God , if they can withdraw enought from other men .

Answ. I cannot devise for what end the Treat . * * Aliquid latet quod non patet . should seeke thus to discover other mens nakednes , except it be , he thought that the more vile and contemptible he made his Opposites appeare in the Readers eye , the easier he would be won , to embrace this his opinion of Hearing Antichristian Ministers ; a prittie trick ; Much like that Lesson of the Cannon Law : Si non caste tamen cause . But such shifts profit not , for a godly minde will search and looke into the cause it selfe ; and not on the persons either for , or against it .

To oppose a bad course , is meet and lawfull , and should we be silent when we are called to testifie against it , we should make our selves hereby open transgressours .

Touching the building up of our selves : This ( as Iude † † Ver. 20. teacheth ) must be in our most holy faith . He that rayseth up a House with rotten stuffe , * * What is there else in Babilon . will loose his cost and labour by it .

I know not what withdrawing he meanes from other men : if he intend a withdrawing from the Hearing of false Ministers , then I answer , they doe well that doe it . For if the Temple made with hands , defiled through idolatrie , was odious unto God , how much more will he loth our Spirituall Temples ( not made with hands ) if we suffer them to be polluted with filthy superstition . But so absolutely we shall doe , if we doe the thing which the Treat : here contends for .

A good man ( saith Ambrose m m Lib 5. Epist. 30. ) will be earnest and Zealous against idolatry .

Another saith : n n Bradshaw on 2 Thes. 2 , p. 130. The better a man is , the more carefull will he be to withdraw himselfe from it . These witnesses are true .

Fourthly , there are some to be found so sowred with modines and discontentment , Treat . as they become unsociable : If they see nothing lamentable , they are ready to lament : If they reade any Bookes , they are onely invectives specially against publicke Sa●es and Governours .

Answ . 1. As to be unsociable , is inhumaine and brutish , so to be carelesse with whome we joyne in communion , is sinfull and vicious . A traviler were better goe alone , then have one in his company that should rob him , and cut his throat .

2. This is not an age , which wants cause of just lamentation , considering not onely the evils without , but what perverse things are brought into the Churches of God , whereby poore people are dayly deceived .

3. That we should looke into publicke States and Governours , there is reason for it ; and specially , if the same be Ecclesiasticall , for else , how can we walke as men of knowledge , and hold fast onely that which is good .

Lastly , Treat . some thinke to cover their owne both grosser and more proper and personall corruptions , under a furious march , not onely against the faylings , but the persons also failing of infirmity in matter of Church-order and Ordinances .

Answ . I suppose by Church-ordinances and Order , he meanes the Ministerie , Worship , and Government under Antichrist . Now , that some of ignorance submit to these things , there is nothing more certaine ; notwithstanding this gives not allowance to others others ( knowing better ) to doe so too . If there failing be of infirmity , there is the more hope of their reformation , I meane when they shall heare the truth taught , and see the Teachers walke closely in it .

In conclusion , the Treat : pleas the Rhetorician , and makes a shew , as if he could say more , but he will spare his opposites .

Answ . As for his minsing figure of extenuation ( to let much passe ) I like it not ; For he doth here no otherwise then if a Theese when he hath stript a man out of all that he hath , would faine yet be counted mercifull , in that he doth not murder him , or bind him as some others have done . Let any indifferent man read his writing , and he will say , the Treat . hath not spared his opposites . but short at them arrowes of bitter words , and made them as odious and vile as a man can doe . But blessed is he , that is not offended at the truth for such things .

SECT. 2.

THE Objections undertaken to be answered by the Treatiser , are ( as he layes them downe ) of two sorts : Some of them are framed upon supposition , that the Ministers in that Church are in themselves Lawfull and of God ; But yet not to be heard by reason of the abuses & evils to be found in their administrations . Others with-draw herein ( and those the more ) upon the contrarie supposition : to wit , that the very order and constitution of that Church and Ministery is papall and unlawfull .

Answ . For the first I have nothing to say to it . It beeing a point beside our present dispute . Againe , for my part , I am of his minde in the thing : that is , to use his owne expression :

Supposing a Church , and the Ministerie , thereof essentially lawfull , it cannot but be lawfull for the members of other Churches in generall union , and association , with it to communicate therewith , in things lawfull , and lawfully done : seeing the end of union is communion . God hath in vaine united persons , and states together . But he , who would have us receave the weake in faith , whom God hath receaved , would not have us refuse the fallowship of Churches in that which is good , for any weaknes in them , of one sort or other . And this we have so plainly and plentifully commended unto us , both by the Prophets , yea by Christ himselfe in the Iewish Church ; and Apostles , and Apostolicall men in the first Christian Churches ; In which many errours and evils of all kindes were more then manifest : and the same ofttimes both so farre spread , and deeply rooted , as the reforming of them was rather to be wished then hoped for : as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any , who desire to follow their holy steps in faith towards God , and charitie towards men , and effectuall desire of their owne edification .

What he here writes is surely true ; for the Scriptures approve not of rending away from true Churches for any corruption : I use the word any , because so long as we acknowledge the Church to be true ( whatsoever her sinnes are ) a separation from all communion with it , is utterly unlawfull .

Our godly Predicessours had in them the zeale of God , and love of his truth ; * * Two things I would know of these men 1. Whether they thinke not that the primitive Christians were as zealous and sincere as themselves . 2. Whether they thinke not , that the Churches from whome they separate , have as few , if not fewer corruptions , then such Churches had , in which the Apostles and other godly people dayly communicated . But how shewed they it ? Not by forsaking their Brethren for offences , but in witnessing against them , and seeking their reformation . But now ( ah that I could not say it ) some men know not how their zeale like Iehues may be seene of men , unlesse they make publick Schismes in Churches ; and this many times , not for any sinne , that they can justly prove the Church to be in , but upon discontentment , and because they cannot have their way and will .

But of this no more now : For I purpose ( if God spare my life ) to set forth a Treatise touching this very point .

The Treatiser in pag. 23 , Treat . would have us consider distinctly of Religious actions , according to the severall Rankes in which they may rightly & orderly be sett . And how we should conceive of them , a little after , he tels us thus : Some such actions are Religious only , as they are performed by Religious persons . And of this sort is Hearing ( and so Reading ) of Gods Word . The Scriptures teach , and all confesse , that Hearing of the Word of God goes before Faith , for Faith comes by Hearing , as by an outward meanes . Hearing then beeing before Faith , and Faith before all other acts of Religion inward or outward ; it must needs follow , that Hearing is not simply , or of it selfe a worke of Religion , and so not of Religious Communion .

Answ. That the Reader may the better perceive , how greatly the Treat : was deceived in this matter of Hearing : as to thinke it not to be of Religious Communion : ● 1 Cor. 1. 9. 2 Cor. 6. 14. I will speake here a little touching the nature of Communion . Philip. 2 1. 1 Ich. 1 , 3.

For the word : the Greeke koinoneo , signifies to have a part , or share , in , or with persons and things , answerable to it , is the Hebrew Chabar , and imports a consociation , copulation , or meeting together .

Againe , Communion is three-fould ; The first between God and Man ; The second between Man and Man ; The third between Man and actions ; For the two later , the same is either civill , or spirituall . I call that a civill Communion , when the matter or ground of it is not in , & of it selfe divine and spirituall , but earthly and temporall : For spirituall Communion , this is practised two wayes : 1. With persons and things : 2. With things , and not persons . Where there is a foregoing joyning of people together in a spirituall outward societie , or body Pelitick , there is a Religious Communion with persons and things . But where this is not , there is a Communion with things , as the State it selfe , and the administrations done by the power thereof . Howbeit , as I have said else-where , they have no Church communion , that is , to speake properly , they have no Communion with the persons , who are not in Church-estate or union with them .

And that this is so , the Scriptures * * 1 Cor. 10 , 18. not only shew : but also the deniall of it , leads unto grosse absurditie : For if a man communicate not , in , and with the Worship he doth , then it must follow , that he neither helpes himselfe in performing true Worshipp unto God , nor hurts himselfe to doe the contrary ; And so by this ground , it is all one whether I doe the one or other . But of this we shall have occasion to speake more hereafter ; Now to his distinctions .

1. It cannot be proved , that Hearing and so Reading of Gods Word , are actions Religious only , as they are performed by Religious persons .

This is not so : for it is not the person that makes the action Religious ; The reason is , if the action in it selfe be Religious , it must then be reputed a Religious action , be the dore Religious or not .

That no man may mistake me , let it here be observed , that actions are Religious , either in respect of the matter alone , or the matter and manner too . I confesse , it by a Religious action , we understand the later , that is , a thing well done for matter and manner , in this sence , none but Religious persons can performe Religious actions .

But if by a Religious action , we meane the thing it selfe , and as ( eo nomine ) it is to be distinguished , from what is , civill , naturall , worldly ; then I say againe , it is a Religious action ( and of this sort is Hearing and so Reading of Gods Word ) howbeit performed by irreligious people .

2. Whereas he saith , that Faith goes before all other asts of Religion inward or outward .

This also is untrue : For men wanting faith ( witnesse Kaan , Ahab , Saul , Iudas ) may yet performe acts of Religion . The Scriptures here cited ‡ ‡ 1 Timo. 1 , 5. are ( extra organum ) not to the point ; For they doe not say , Rom. 10 , 10. that Faith goes before all acts of Religion ; But thus , without faith , we cannot please God by them . So then , note the difference between the Scriptures , and what he inferreth from them . Gal. 2 , 20.

Without faith all acts of Religion are without acceptation with God ; So these Scriptures ; Ergo ( saith he ) faith goes before all acts of Religion .

To his mis-applying here , J may well apply that in the Poet : Ego de alijs loquor , Lucan : tu respondere decepis .

3. Here is made true the saying in the Poet. a a Fallacia alia aliam tradit . One falsehood or suttlety bringeth in another . Teren. in Andr. His needs must follow , followes not , but it is an unsound inference from a false principle . Hearing the Word of God , is more ( though he deny it ) then a naturall action . viz. Religious and Spirituall ; He reasoneth a specie ad genus negative : because Hearing in some cases is so , therefore it is so in all .

If it be his meaning , that Hearing is a naturall action , as it respects the Organ or meanes , in , and by which a man receives the knowledge of what he heares . Then it is true , according to that rule in Philosophie b b Relata esse simul naturâ . , Relations in nature are alike . But this is nothing to the purpose . Arist. in Categ . Relat.

He that eates and drinkes bread and wine at the Lords Table ; or speakes to God in prayer ; performes naturall actions , I meane as the members of the bodie are here used : But if wee consider either the Sacrament or Prayer in the subject or object thereof , so they are not naturall actions , but religious , and the like is Hearing of the Word of God .

For his two reasons , they are of no weight ; For 1. though the light of nature teacheth a man to listen to another , yet this proves not , that it teacheth him to Heare in the way and manner here pleaded for .

2. Were it granted it did : yet might the action be Religious ; For the light of nature c c Rom. 1. 20 , 21. Epictetus a Stoick writeth thus : It is before all things to be learned that there is but one God ; that he ruleth all things ; that he provideth for all ; that whatsoever we doe , speake , or thinke , nothing can be hid from him ; that we should worship him as our Creator and Father , and the only authour of our felicity . Epictus apud Arrian . , leadeth us to sundry divine duties , howbeit insufficient to guide us in the right manner of dooing them .

3. I grant , a meere naturall man ought necessarily to heare Gods Word ; Notwithstanding it will not follow , when he heares in a Church-way , that he performes no Religious action . This is as if one should say , because a rebel is no good subject , he cannot doe any civil service to his Prince ; I speake not of the ayme of his heart , but only of a formall dooing .

That which the Treatiser unjustly layes as a fault on Mr. Iohnson in pag. 23. is most true of himselfe in pag. 26 , 27. to witt , a want of distinction betweene things . It is so as hee saith , Preaching by some , and Hearing by others , may be performed without any Religious Communion passing betweene the persons preaching or hearing .

This I say is right , but that which afterwards he makes one with it , is different and otherwise ; namely , that a man may heare a Minister teach officially , and yet not have communion with the state of the Teacher .

I may apply here against him , that in the civill Law , testes dome stici househould witnesses are of no validitie . This is but his owne saying , said over many times , and indeed argueth more witt then truth , and sophestry then sincerity .

Scholers are taught out of the Topicks , that it is ill arguing a consequenti , when in two positions things utterly unlike , shal be compared together , and the one by no meanes can inferre the other .

I have proved before , that howsoever a man stand not in spirituall and politicall church communion with a Church and ministery thereof , yet he is there a participant or communicant in , and with the ordinances , as with the doctrines taught , so with the state of the Teacher .

For the better clearing of this ; Let vs in few words consider , a Church state , Ministery , and administrations , make vp ( as I may so say ) the body of divine worship . Now it is a knowne Maxime quidquid est pars partis , est etiam pars t●tius . The hand is a part of the body , the finger a part of the hand , he therefore that holds either my hand or finger toucheth my body . So in iust proportion , hee that toucheth any part or member of the spiritual & politicall body , hee toucheth the body or state , bee the same true or false : if true , his communion is lawfull : if false , he toucheth an uncheane thing , and ●o● sinneth against that precept in 1. Cor. 6. 17.

To end this Section howsoever hearing of the word of God , lies in common for all , for the good of all . Yet hath God appointed away and order vnto all , how to heare it . Food and rayment lies in common to all , for the good of all : What of this , shall wee hence conclude it is noe matter by what meanes or course men have it ; indeed so he reasoneth or else ( Oleum et operam perdidit ) he speaketh neither for himselfe nor against vs . Mr. Baines f f Diocesen . triall . p. 7. writes well , no people can worship God in repairing to any Church , or ministery without warrant of his word . Let the reader note it .

SECT. 3.

THe Treatiser for this opposities , hath framed 16 : objections : the which ( as himselfe saith * * Pag. 13. he hath either heard from others , or could conceiue of himselfe , ooulerably against the practice by him propounded . The first is laid downe thus :

No man may submit his conscience to be wrought vpon , Object. 1. by an unlawfull and antichristian ministery : neither hath God promised , or doth afford † † These words in a different letter , are the Treat . owne , and we disclaime them . any blessing upon it , neither can any have the sanctified vse thereof .

His answere hereto is this . The office of the ministery workes not vpon the conscience of the hearer properly : the office gives onely power and charge to the Teacher , to teach in such aplace : it resides in the person of the officer alone , the communion lawful or unlawfull which any hath with it , is in regard of the lawfull or unlawfull relation and vnion foregoing between the persons , and not in any working of the office vpon the conscience of any : God may and doth blesse the truths taught fauls ministers .

Answ. It was Heiroms k k Paulum quotiescunque lego videor mihi non verba audire , sed tonitrua : cont . Iovinian . censure of Pauls Epistles , that when hee read them He thought he heard not words but Thunder . This cannot be well applied to his reply here . For should I speake my conscience , it is a meere Phrasiologie , words without weight of reason .

1. He denies our first assertion : But how cleares he it to the contrarie ? As is his ground , so are his proofes : Only bare saying : Sit pro ratione voluntas .

That the Office of the Minister , workes upon the Hearers conscience ; It is certaine , and not to be denyed , without losse of credit , both to the person and cause of the denyer in the eye of all reasonable men : l l Exo. 28. For this is evident by the Scriptures , whether we respect an Office true or false . Ephes. 4 , 11. 2 Thes. 2 , Rev. 9.

Againe , if it be considered , what we meane by the Office working upon the conscience ; Common reason will prove it too : Our meaning is , that the state or power by which he administers , is herein submitted too . As Magistrates are obeyed in civill Justice , because of their calling , and were it not for it , men could not for conscience sake receive their administrations : So the conscience of a Hearer is brought in subjection to the ordinance of Hearing , even for the Office sake of him that teacheth ; We intend here Ministeriall teaching .

It is most certaine ( saith one m m Mr. Peitry of the Ministery of the Church of England : Pag. 37. 38. ) Satan ruleth in the consciences of men , not only by false doctrine , but also by his false power and ordinances ; His Kingdome of darknes not only consisteth in the lies and false doctrine , and worship which he hath coyned , but also in the false and Antichristian Ordinances , which he hath invented for the ruling of his Idolatrous denne : And therefore the Children and Saints of God ought to avoyd both the one and the other . So hee .

2. It is not true , that the Office only gives power and charge to the Teacher to teach in such or such a Church-state . For properly it respects not that at all , but rather the Office of the person gives him power to preach , pray , administer the Sacraments , &c. according to their Order and Canons . He that that hath not a Church-state to preach in , yet beeing ordained Preist , hath power by his Office to doe the worke of a Preist any where . And so much the Treat . n n Manumis . to a Manuduct , p. 70. in another Booke acknowledgeth : The Office is the very state and function conferred upon a man by his calling , from which Office ariseth immediate * * Note this . power , and charge to administer , and to performe the works of that Office : In the performance of which workes the Office is executed & . power used .

And whereas he mentioneth here , the truths they teach : J grant these are from God , but the Office which gives them power and charge to speake them , is from Antichrist : And a speciall Character or Marke ( as the Learned o o Mr. Symon on the Rev. pag. 120. write ) of the Beast . Thus said Iohn Chaydon , p p Acts and Monuments , Edict . 5. pag. 588. a Martyr of Christ : The Bishops license to preach the Word of God , is the true Character of the Beast , that is of Antichrist . The like Mr. Bale q q On Revel chap. 14. 9. , and others .

3. Whereas he saith , the false Office resides in the person of the Officer alone ; Here I might take that exception of the Law r r In testimon . dig : de testibus against him . They who wander against the credis of their owne Testimonies , are not to be heard . Against this , we have his owne testimony ; For thus he saith s s Manumiss . to a manuduct . pag. 5. those that pertake in the worke of preaching of one , sent by the Bishops , doe pertake in what lyeth in them in the authority of the sender . And this is so indeed . The sinfull Office of the Teacher , becomes his sinne , who practiseth will-worship with him : For hereby hee enwraps himselfe into the guilt of the Office ; And this thing by another is so clearely proved t t Treatise of the Ministery of the church of England , by Fran : Iohnson . Pag. 5 , 6 , 7 , &c. , as no man can deny it , that hath any light of reason or Religion shining in him .

4. What can be vainer said ( our enimies themselves beeing Iudges ) then to say , God may and doth blesse the truths taught by false Ministers : A posse ad esse n●n valet consequentia . To reason thus , is both against Logick and Divinitie . To dispute ( saith King Iames u u A speech in Parliament , anno 1609. ) what God may doe , is blasphemy , but quid vult Deus , that divines may Lawfully , and doe ordinarily dispute and discourse .

It never came into our hearts to thinke , that God may not blesse the Truths taught by false Ministers : But this we hold , he hath not in his Word promised any blessing unto it . And in this Luther is with us . God blesseth not ( saith he x x Comment. in Galat. cap. 1. pag. 42. , meaning by any ordinary promise ) their labour , who are not lawfully called to the Ministery .

The injunction y y Injunction 3. of Q. Elizabeth , set forth by publick authority , is much to this purpose . Workes devised by mans fancie , ( so is every unlawfull Ministerie , and condemned as Cartwright z z Christ . Cate●h . of R●lig . chap. 16. Pag. 98 saith in the second commandement ) have not only no promise of reward for doing of them , but contrariwise great threatnings & maledictions of God .

The Treatiser a a Iustificat . of Separ . pag. 79. was of this opinion too , when he said : The Lord hath promised no blessing to his Word , but in his owne Ordinance , though by his super abundant merey he oft-times vouchsafe that , which no man can chalenge by any ordinarie promise .

And because the Treat . is here so breife , a touch and away : As if our Objection had no weaght ; I will therefore lay the argument downe in this manner .

Such Churches , unto whome God hath made no promise in his Word , to blesse the things there done ; ought not by Gods people to be resorted to .

But God in his Word hath made no promise to blesse the things done in a false Church .

Therefore Gods people are not to goe unto false Churches .

The Proposition cannot be excepted against : For 1. The Scriptures prove it clearely . * * Ier. 23 , 21 , 22.

Againe , there is no duty charged upon us , Ex. 20 , 24 but there is a blessing promised , Psa. 134 , 3 & 147 , 13. unto the due performance of it .

The assumption is as cleare , and thus we prove it .

If false Churches have not the promise of Gods presence , they cannot from the Word of God , exspect his blessing upon what they doe . But the first is true : Ergo the second .

The Major , which is only controversall , wee prove thus .

If every false Church be an Idoll b b Exo. 20. 45. , and God require his people to come out thence c c Rev. 18 , 4. , threaten to destroy it d d Rev. 20. 8 , 9. , and will doe it , and promise his presence unto the true Church e e Mat. 18. 20. : Then is he not present * * We mean such a presence of God , as by his Word we can be sure of it . in the false : But the first is true , therefore the second .

Here I might name sundry learned Men , who give witnes to this thing . Christ ( saith Raynolds f f De Rom. Eccles. idolat . l. 2. c. 1. pag. 99. the Pastor of his Chruch , doth tell us , that he feeds not in Antichristian assemblies ; in the denne of Theeves , neither is it his will , that his flock should there rest at noone : But in the pleasant pasture , by the still waters , that is in the shadowes of the true Christian Churches , detesting idolatry .

Another thus : They that doe usurpe Ministeriall function in the Church , g g Dr. Slater on Rom. 1. Pag. 8. cannot exspect Gods blessing on their labour . Doctor Ames layes it downe as a reason why a lawfull calling is necessary ; namely , that so they may exspect a blessing from God .

It is true which these men say , for our ground for Hearing in church way is not because the speaker is a man gifted , able to open and apply the scriptures . &c , But because that which he doth is a a divine institution , an ordinance charged on vs , to practice , & to which God hath promised his presence and blessing .

Let our opposites shew vs where it is writen , that the gyfts and personall graces of the man , is sufficient to iustifie the hearing of him * * We intend Ministeriall teaching . a Chap. 23 2. but rather the reason wherefore we he are him , is , because of the lawfull calling which he hath to administer the holy things of God .

Our Saviour as it appeares by Matthew approves of the hearing of the Scribes and Pharisees ; But upon what ground , not because they were able to open and apply , the doctrines of Faith by that Church professed : but ) as Piscator saith because they were called and ordained of God , Adeo vocati at que constituti su●t vt legem Mosis in Synagogis populo praelegant cumque ad 〈◊〉 observationem exh●●tentur . Analis . in Mat. 23 , v. 2. that they should preach the Law of God in the Sinagogues to the people , and exhort them to the observation thereof-Aretius on the place saith the like and adds , their calling bound the people to heare them .

Soe then here wee see that men , being lawfully called to the ministery are to be heard howsoever in some qualifications defective : but that such who have taken on a false office , are to be heard th●s I deny : and ever shall doe , vntill they shew me some divine precept for it , as wee have for the other , which is ( Tantah horto fructus colligere ▪ ) a thing that they can never doe .

For his phrase Balaam-like to curse : I passe it by : onely I thinke good to put our opposites in mind , of that which is writen in I●sh. 6. 26. Cursed be the man before the Lord that raiseth vp and buildeth the city lericho .

J am sure , God of old-hath devoted Babilon to destruction : let men therefore see to it that they bring not themselves vnder a greater curse , by using their pens and tongues , to rise vp againe one part of the Kingdome of the beast which the Lord before had consumed with the spirit of his mouth .

SECT. 4.

THE Treatiser frames our second objection in this manner .

To heare such a minister is to honour approve and vphold his office of ministery . Object .

In confutation of this , thus he saith .

If this hee simply true then when the heathenish Athenians heard Paul preach : Treat . or when an unbeleever comes into the Church assembly , an a heares the preacher he approues , honours and vphold the office of the ministery .

Answ : The virgins in Cypryans time granted , they walked with young men , talked with them , went led with them , but when they came to the act , they absteyned .

The Treat . writings here , and in all the rest of his Booke , is much to the same purpose : He grants , that men may walke to the Harlots House * * But the Word of God forbids it , Pro , 5 , 7. Lyran expounds this place of the false Church , Tom. 2 , p. 314. , heare her told gueists , and yeeld to sundry dallying gestures ( as bowing the knee , uncovering the head , &c. ) but when they come to the act they must absteane : What that learned man a a Non est locus dondus Diabolo : Nemo diu tutus periculo proximus , l. 1 , c. 11. then answered , so doe I : No place must be given to the Divell , no man is long safe , who is neere the point of daunger . To the matter .

That our argument may appeare strong ; Secundam legem oppositionis ( as the Lawers terme is ) we will put it downe in this forme .

To yeeld any approbation , liking , or reverence unto mens institution in the exercise of Religion is a sinne .

But in hearing Antichristian Ministers , there is approbation liking , and reverence yeelded unto mens institution in the exercise of Religion .

Therefore it is a sinne to doe it .

The Major cannot be denyed ; for the Scriptures b b Mat. 15 , 19 , Ps. 16 , 4 Colos. 2 , 20 , 21 , Deu 5 , 9 , 10 , 1 Cor. 6 ▪ 17 , Hos. 2 , 16 , Ex. 23 , 13 teach us the very thing . Besides the most judicious Writers affirme so too .

God forbiddeth ( saith Mr. Iacob c c Exposition on Com. 2. ) all approbation , liking or reverence , though never so small shewed towards any institution and inventions of men whatsoever in the exercise of Religion , yea all words either of tongue or pen , tending to defend or excuse such humane inventions in Gods service .

I might alleadge . Calvin d d Serm. 52 , on Deu. , Mollerus e e In ps. 16 , 4. p. 108. , Smilerus f f In Exo. fol. 90. , Macabeus g g Enarrat . in Deu. 12 , loc. 1. Vrsinus h h Explic. Catech. p 759. Vigrandus i i Synops. Antichrist , Zanchy k k De redempt . fol. 90 . , D. Andrew l l On the Com. 2. , D. Fulk m m Confut. of Allen. 378. , Perkings n n Catech. c. 16 , p 96 , Cartwright , Ainsworth p p Annot. on Ex. 20 45. , and others , who in their writings affirm the same .

The minor is as cleare : for 1. Jt is not possible that men can come unto Antichristian churches to worship God , but they must by their presence there , shew reverence & honour to the publick false state and ministery .

Note what an English Prelate q q Determinat . Quaest. 7 , p. 40. saith , it appertaineth to the vertue of truth , that as a man sheweth himselfe by externall signes , so he is indeed to be esteemed .

The Doway r r Annotat. in 2 King 5 , 19 , p. 771. translaters of the Bible write thus , such as frequent , or repaire unto unlawfull assemblies , for the publick service of God , by their being there are to be reputed of the same religion , or else dessemblers : as it were to have noe care of religion , knowing God and not glorifying him as God .

Cornelius a lapide s s In Epist. 2. p. 505. ) in his commentary on Iohn , saith , false ministers are favored and approved in their vnlawfull way , when they are heard .

Chytraeus t t De Eucharistia , p. 317 , 318. handeleth largely this point , & from 1. Cor. 10. 14. concludes , that all false Churches are to be left vtterly , because ( saith he ) a mans presence there is an approbation of them , Rivetus v v Comment. in Psa. 16 , p. 53. adds this : Etiam si nemo ad confessionem adigeretur : Yea though a man came not thether for confession sake .

If the fathers thought that the Christians could not weare garlants of bay , x x Tertull. de corona milit. nor deck their houses with leaves , and green bawes ; Nor sit after they had prayed , nor rest from their labour those dayes that Pagans did , nor keepe the first of every moneth as they did . y y Brac. z Tom. Can. 73. But they should countenance and honour heathenish ceremonies , and superstitions .

If these fathers ( I say ) conceived so , of these things , surely then vpon the like , or better reason , may I conclude , that to goe unto false churches , and there heare unlawfull Ministers is , to shew approbation , liking , and reverence vnto mens institutions in the exercise of religion .

The Prophet Hosea a a Hos. 2. 13. reproves some , for kissing the Calues : But what was this sinne . Pareus b b In Hos. 13. 2. pag. 557. Tom. 1. saith it was , their bodily presence at false worship , by which presence they shewed aliking to it . So Calvin . c c Praelect. in Hos. 13. 2. pag. 157.

Againe , the point is further cleared , in that idols by this practice are honoured . Observeable it is , whereas on Evangilist a a Ma●. 4. 9. See Pareus on the place . ( setting downe the Tempters words to Christ ) saith , worship me : Another b b Luk. 4. 7. hath it , worship before me : Shewing that it is all one to worship before the Devill , or to worship him ; Now , he is worshipped , when idols c c 2 Chro. 11. 15. 1. Cor. 10. 20. Rev. 9. 20. 1 Tim. 4. 1. are worshipped , or any false institution are observed and practised : Yea ( as Cartwright d d Histor. Christ lib. 1. pag. 14. saith ) ta●etsi ex amino , aut superstitione quadam deceptus hoc non faciant .

To apply this , the Treat grants , that a false Church is a real idol , apart of Antichristisme , and of the apostasie of the man of sinne ; If so ; then hearing there , must needs be unlawfull , because it is to worship before an idol , & such an idol as that the worship there done , issues from it , as the streame or river from the fountaine .

To the particulars of his reply . 1. For the Athenians hearing of Paul , it is as impertinent a speech as was ever used by a man of learning ▪ For we dispute only of Church hearing , and not of what is occasionall , and done out of publick-state , or Church-way . Wee never held it unlawfull , to heare any man deliver the Word of God , as the circumstances may be . But what of this : hence the Treat , will inferre , that we may heare any where , and in any way .

If another should have framed such an answer to him , he would have said , that either he had not learn'd his Sophestry , or else thought he had to doe with fooles ; For he reasoneth , ab eo quod est secundum quid ad simpliciter . Makes a generall consequence of that which is true in part .

2. To say , if I approve of the Office simply , because I heare the Officer preach , then I much more approve of all the Doctrines which he delivers . This is not so , nor so ; For the Office is an institution , by which the Officer hath power to administer : And howsoever , we have our freedome to like or dislike of the administrations , as we see just cause for it : Yet by our joyning and communion with them , we certainly approue of the state it selfe , whether lawfull or unlawfull ; For Example :

If I come where the Majestrates are sitting , and have civill justice there administred to me ; Albeit by this going of mine to their Court for judgement , I really approve of the state that they are in : yet J am not therefore necessitated to approue of all the acts & conclusions they make , but may dislike them , if I see they are not as they ought to be .

The Corinthians , for ought I can see , resorted unto the Feasts of idols , upon the same ground that the Treat . layes downe for hearing . They went not of superstition ; for they were to well instructed ; and Paul in their person brings forth an excuse for them : * * 1. Cor. ● . 4. We know that an idol is nothing . As if they should say , we regard not what they have devised their publicke false-state concernes us not , for we have left it : We are in no Church-communion with their Officers , our meaning is not to worship as they doe , they intend one thing , we another . But did this satisfie the Apostle ? Not in the least ; For he knew their private differing intention , was ▪ but a strong fruit of the flesh , monstrous presumpt on , and a meere delusion ; For their eating was not to be looked upon , and judged after their secret meaning . But according to that publicke state where they were .

And here I desire the Reader to note the difference betweene Paul and the Treat . Paul makes the sinne of the Corinthians to be their resorting to an idol-state ; Not simply their eating ( for tha● they might have done else-where ) but because it was in , by , or from an institution of the Devil .

The Treat . layes us downe a contrarie Doctrine , and tels us , a false Church-state , is nothing : And Antichristian Officer nothing ; And that we may lawfully worship God in the one , and heare his Word preached by the other , provided we be not in Church-communion with the Officer , &c.

Truely the difference here is great : For the Treat . cleares the Corinthians of the thing for which the Apostle condemnes them . But I will not presse this further now ; Only what Augustine * said of the learned Fathers , I may speake of the Treatis . in stead of him , or rather above him , Paul the Apostle commeth to my mind , to him I runne , to him I appeale , from all sorts of writers that thinke otherwise .

For conclusion , if the false state of a Church and Ministerie defile only the members thereof : And as for other present worshippers , they are blameles : Jf this ( I say ) be a true saying , them hath he vainely confind himselfe to the Ministerie of the Church of England ; For his Position will serve as well to justifie hearing among Papists , Arrians , Sorcinians , Iewes , Turkes , &c. Yea further , and to be present at any service or worship they doe .

For what should hinder , but according to this ground , a man may lawfully goe to the Temples of the Saracens , and he are their Preists : considering they doe deliver many materiall truths . As that God is true and righteous in all his wayes a : ● In Alcho ran Azoara . 1. : The Creator of all things b : The giver of every good gyft c c Azoar . 14. Ad that Iesus Christ is the Sonne of Mary d d Azoar . 11. , the Messenger of God , and a true Prophet e e Azoar . 7. .

If any object , but they utter many lies and blasphemies . I answer , the hearing simply of errours , corrupts not the Hearer : For so he consents not to them in judgement , not practice , but testifieth against them , he delivers his owne soule .

SECT. 5.

THE Treatiser layes downe our next OBJECTION thus :

By this then it seemes , a man may be present at any act of Idolatrie , and doe as others doe , that practice Idolatry , yet not approue of it . And so the three Nobles in Danial needed not to have put themselves upon such pikes of daunger as they did , for not falling downe as others did in the place .

To this he answereth : Treat : 1. In preaching of the truths of the Gospell , no idolatrous act is performed .

Answ. I perceive it is an easie thing to conquest , if begging may procure one that : But wee are no such children as to give the cause so away .

1. Therefore J say , in preaching of the truths of the Gospell ( viz: by a false Minister , about which is our dispute ) an idolatrous act is performed ; And that the Reader may understand this thing the better : He is to consider , that divine worship is not to be determined by a particular thing ( howbeit in it selfe good ) but as all the essentiall parts belonging thereto ( whether they are persons or things ) are kept and observed .

The Church of Rome in Baptisme useth water , and in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper , gives bread , and otherwhile wine too ; doth this cleare their administrations of idolatry ? So runns the Treat : reasoning : But wee cannot receive it , for the Lord never spake so by him .

J thinke all men doe thinke , that Vzziah a a 2 Chro. 26. 16. committed an idolatrous act , when he invaded the Priests Office . But what made it so ? Tooke he unlawfull incense ? No. Used he strange fire ? No. Offered he prohibited sacrifice , or upon a wrong Altar ? No. Where then lay the fault ? The Scripture tels us it pertained not to him to burne incense unto the Lord , but to the Sonnes of Aaron b b Ver. 18. To apply this , if his act were idolatrous , because he wanted a calling , howbeit observed many truths of the Law ; By the same reason , the Church-acts of Antichristian Ministers , are idolatrous ; Yea & as for the truths which they preach , this clears their acts no more from idolatry ; then Vzziahs true incense and Altar , quitted him from transgression .

It is truely said of one c c Lavaret . in Josh. 22. Hom 61. pag 7. We ought not to conclude of an action , that it is good , because it hath in it some thing which in it selfe is so .

And this is true , as in divine things , so in humane too : For it is a knowne Tenent of Philosophers , d d Omne totum suis partibus ordinatur , mensuretur & determinatur . the whole is composed , measured and determined of all the parts .

Vnto the constitution of the whole ( according to Aristotlec ) is required 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 .

2. As Iob f f Iob. 24.4 . saith , who can bring a cleane thing out of an uncleane ? Not one . The false Office by our Opposit●es is acknowledged to be uncleane . Now , to deny that their Ministeriall acts are not from thence , is against common sence . And this further may be amplyfied by that passage in the Prophet , g g Hag. 2. 12 13. See Iunius on the place . where it is shewed , that holy things are polluted by touching things uncleane . e e Arist. 12. Met. 3 , & Lib. de Poet. cap. 7.

3. If in preaching the truth ( according to the point in question ) no idolatrous act is performed : Then it will follow , that a man may remaine a Minister of a false Church all his life time : Provided , he only teach * * Note that such whom they call Lecturers , in some places only preach , and doe nothing else : As I my selfe for some yeares stood son . the truths of the Gospell ; Our reason is , for in this , if he doe no idolatrous act , then he sinneth not , & so Consequently no just cause of his comming out from among them . The vilenesse of which thing , I leave to the Readers censure .

4 , By the Treat : assertion , all usurpers of civill Offices can justifie themselves easily ; For although they are inrtuders and Tratours : Yet seeing their administrations are so and so : No Rebellious Act is performed . I could note here many more such absurdities & inconsequences , tualoga in theologa , as they cal them : but enough is said ; Considering the truth brings forth no errour nor absurditie by true consequence . Neither doth one part contradict another , as Augustine h h Scriptura sancta in nulla parte discordat . De verb. dom. 2. & 11. well observeth .

Let us heare what he hath further to say : Treat . The Jewes after Christs death , and the taking away and abolishing of the legall ordinance thereby , circumcised their infants , and frequented the Temple for purification and other M●saicall Ceremonies , as parts of Gods Worship , and still remaining of divine institution . Paul also circumcised Timothy , entred the Temple , and yet did not approve any manner of way of the errour and evill of the Iewish worshippers .

Answ. It is truely said of the Orators , there is nothing done so evill , but with faire coulers a man may defend it . To alleadge the Legall Ordinances for the justifying of this Hearing , is a poore shift , and shewes a desperate case . For 1. it is doubtfull to some , whether any did well to practice the Mosaicall Ceremonies after our Lords suffering ; I could name not a few , who say , it was their failing that did so .

But 2. grant ( and so I thinke ) that yet the Iewish Rites were tollerable , I say in respect of the time , of an indifferent nature , and therefore their observation till further propagation of the Gospell in offensive , and in it selfe not evill ; And so thinkes Calvin i i Instit. l. 3 c. 19 , Sect. 10. Bez● k k Annot. in Act. 21 , 27. P. Martyr l l Loc. Coom . in Clas. 2 , c. 4 , pag. 200. , Zanchy m m In praecept . 3 , pag. 338. , the Writers of the Centuries n n Cent. 1. l. 1● pag. 416. , the Rhemists o o In Act. 21 24. . God minding ( saith Augustine p p Ad Hierom. Epist. 16. ) to have them honourably buried .

Now , what makes this for his purpose : if there be any agreement betweene this Example and the thing he stands for , thus it must be : if it were lawfull for Paul and others , to doe a thing which might be either done or not done , according to circumstances ; then it is Lawfull to heare false Ministers , howbeit the practice be against the Word of God . I shall need say little more , for if his best friends will but draw the curtaine and looke on both parts with a single and impratiall eye , they must without more adoe , confesse that I have rightly applyd it , or they themselves applyed to it , what we say commonly , non causam pro causa ; he takes that for defence of his cause , which maketh naught to the purpose .

3. To speake a little further in this thing , ( because some of our Opposites conceive it is much for them : ) I desire these few particulars may be considered : 1. The Ceremonies whereof we speake , had a necessarie use of avoyding scandall q q Act. 15 , 28. 2. They were expedient for drawing of people unto the faith & order of the Gospell r r 1 Cor. 6 , 20 , 22. : 3. Of Gods owne institution at first . 4. No part of worship . 5. During a time after Christs resurrection in their nature indifferent s s Rom: 14 16 , Gal. 6 15. . 6. In the use of them it was not a holding of conformity with idolaters in their Ceremonies .

Contrary to this is the Hearing in question . For it giveth offence to Brethren , hinders many from entring into Church-estate ; it hath no other ground but mans invention , it is a speciall part of divine worship , in it selfe a practice sinfull and unlawfull , and makes the observers like idolaters in their idolatrous actions .

That which next followes , is his Wodden Reason of a Crosse . I will sert downe his owne words .

To come neerer home , Treat : it is the custome in Popish Countries , that all that passe by a Crosse , must in honour of it leave it on the right hand , as they may doe , by reason of the placing of it , comming or going . t t D. Rainold against Hart. c : 1 , divis : 2 , pag: 46 Now , if I ride with others that way , I may doe the thing that they doe , and keepe Company with them , and yet not honour the Crosse .

Answ. It was a common practice ( as a wise and learned man observes ) among young Students , in the time of the Dunses , that if in disputation they were brought to an inconvenience , were it never so absurd : they would have a distinction , though without braine or sence .

I will not say , that the Trea. distinction here is sencelesse , but this I say ( and will make it good ) it is truthlesse , besides hurtfull and dangerous .

For to take the things as he layes it downe ; that is , there are two wayes to passe by a Crosse , and I know there are in company some , who in honour of the idol , will leave it on the right hand ; Now in this case , if I should silently passe on that side with them , I should offend , yea though I did it , for no other cause , but to keepe on with my company .

My reasons for it are these : 1. The practising of an indifferent thing , wherein others superstitiously put holinesse and necessity , is an occasion of confirming and hardning of them in their superstition . Of this judgement were the German Churches in the Confession of Auspnrg a a Harm . Confess . pag. 222. , and Musculus b b Loc. Com. pag. 422. , Chyereus c c In Mat. p. 342 , 343. , Bucanus d d Loc. pag. 353. & 332. , B. Jewell e e Defen . of Apol. p. 386. , D. Whitaker f f Descript. pag. 483. , and others .

2. Gods Word chargeth us to avoyd all appearance of evill , and condemnes all such , as with their bodies , and in outward shew g g Levit. 18. 34. and 19. 19 Exo. 23. 24. , give any appearance to idolaters , of conforming themselves to them in their idolatrous actions ; howsoever they doe it not with the same minde and intent that the others doe . And this is affirmed by Bucer h h Com. in Mat. c. 18. fol. 143. 6. , Polanus i i In Ezech. c. 16. , Calvin k k In Levit. 19. pag. 207. , B. Hooper l l Vpon Ionas : Serm. 6. fol. 146. , and others .

3. Deu. 14. 1. and 12. 4. 30. 31. Gen. 35. 5. I must please my neighbour to edification * * Rom. 15. 2. 1 Cor. 8. 33. . Now marke it , if I yeeld him not due helpe in fitt time and place , whereby to with-hold him from sinne , I become accessarie to the evill he doth , So write The●philact m m Com. in Rom. 15. , D. Ames n n De conscien . l. 5. c. 10. p. 282. and others .

4. Here the Proverbe is fulfilled , Silence is consent , For not only by words , workes and Examples , may a man become partaker of anothers sinne ; Verum etiam silentio , & dissimulatione vel conniventia , communionem possimus habere cum aliorum peccatis , saith D. Ames in the fore-named place .

Another o o Danaeus Comment. in 1 Tim. c. 5. ver. 22. p. 339. thus : Agentes & consentientes pari paena puniuntur , qui cum furibus pro fures habentur apud Deum .

5. If that passage in Calvin p p Instit. l. 3. c. 19. Sect. 11. be true , they give offence who doe any thing unseasonably , rashly , and out of order and place , unto the hurt of others : then is not this thing voyd of scandall .

6. Dissimulation is a kinde of deniall of Christ . So saith Zanchy q q Praecept . 3. pag. 554. Tom. 4. And Aquinas r r Aquin. 2. 2. quaest. 3. art. 1. cals it mendacium in factis . And that this is dissimulation : the discription of that vice will make it evident . For according to Davena● s s Determ . quaect . 7. pag. 40. that is dissembling , cum aliquis per signa factorum contrarium eius significat quod in mente clausum habet . And these reasons may bee applyed against the going with others to an idol-ministerie , Church , Worship , &c , as here unto a Crosse .

The Treat . goes foreward thus : If I have just and reasonable cause of comming or standing before the Magistrate ( to whom I owe civill honour ) while he is performing some act of idolatrie , in the streets or else where ; I may upon the same ground , goe or stand uncovered by him , without just blame .

Answ. I may say ( as another said t t D. Fulk . Confut. Rhem. on Philip. 2. 10. in a like case ) with such respects , relations , and distinctions , all idolatry and will-worship may be defended .

It greeves me truely , to see his fearefull retyring into the battered workes of the Familists : for howsoever he minseth it , and would make his thread somewhat fairer ; notwithstanding their web and warpe is one : for let the doctrine of the Familists be perused , and it will appeare , it is all one here with the Treatisers . Men ( say they u u See a Booke set forth by Edmond Iessop . against Anabapt. ) upon occasion may be bodily present where idolatrie is practised ; yet so , as they loth the same , and keep their hearts to God only . So they

What they ( by Occasion ) do meane , and he by a just and reasonable cause , I know not , neither doe I much desire to know ; but this I know , there can be no reason given , that a man should come where idolatry is practised , ( be the Magistrate present ) and there in any outward signes and gestures doe as the rest , secretly proposing to himselfe , not to give any honour to the false worship , but to the Magistrate , to whome he owes civill worship .

If Namaan had beene of the Treat . judgement , he would not have questioned the lawfulnes of going with his maister into the House of Rinnon : For he had as just and reasonable a cause , as the Treat . I thinke could instance . Moreover , he meant only in applying himselfe in civill service to the King , and had renounced before all superstitions of the Heathens , so that he would not bow in respect of the idoll , for he detested it with his heart : Notwithstanding all this , to goe thither , he could not lawfully doe , I say upon no termes was it lawfull for him , to doe any civill reverence and honour to the Magistrate ▪ while he was performing acts of idolatry . And so , say Calvin a a In 2. King . 5. , Martyr b b Loc. Cō . p. 199. and 643. , Sedelius c c Comment. in 2. King . 5. , Bidembachius d d Id. , Zanchy e e Praec . 3. p. 536. , Musculus f f In a dial . translated out of French into English , Virel g g Ground Rel. l. 2. p. 103. , and others .

We are to serve God in the sight of the world , and what wee thinke in our hearts , that should bee written ( as it were ) and seene in our foreheads . But many now a dayes , make no conscience of dissembling in Religion , so it be for some worldly advantage ; as that Iewd fellow professeth in the Poet h h Teren. in Phorm . Act. 3. Scen. 2. , Non pudet vanitatis , minime , dum ad rem .

But such as desire to walke ( ● i i Gal. 2. 13. ) with a right foot , cannot indure it . Policarpus k k Euseb. l. 4. c. 15. might have saved his life if hee would have dissembled before the Magistrate , but he saw it would have beene an appearance of evill , and a discouragement to the breathren , and therefore spake boldly , Christianus sum .

Sozemon l l Hist. l. 5. reports that Iulian the Apostate calling all his souldiers before him , gaue to every one a grain of incense to cast into the fyer , and a peice of gould ; they that were christians , having also receaved each man his insence and gould ; not vnderstanding at the first that he was performing any act of idolatry , but that the rite tended either to his owne per●onall dignity , or to make some sweet perfume ; but hearing-afterwards that this perfume was made unto the idols , they returned every one with his gould againe , gaue it to him , deplored their oversight , though in so dooing they endaungered themselues of martyrdome .

The protestant princes of Augusta , in the daies of Charles 5. could not bee wonne either by faire meanes of foule to stand by the Emperour vncovered while he was performing som acts of idolatry : For if they would have done so , there estates , honour , liberty , &c. would have beene granted to them .

I could preduce the examples of many others , who rather then they would come and stand by the magistrate whilst he was performing some act of idolatry and there bow the knee , or vnc●ver the head and suffer both their krees and head to be cut of ; and good reason too : for such a practice , is the high of delusion and deph of dissimulatio : and as one m m Calf hill on the Crosse , fol. 185. truelie sayth howsoever men flatter themselves with a hidden opinion yet the evident and apparent worke of capping bowing and kneeling , shewes that the heart is unsound , and the dore a meere idolater . Blessed is he therefore , that condemneth not himselfe in the thing he approveth .

In conclusion he saith : To apply these things to the Objection moved , Treat : seeing no other cause could reasonably be conceived of the Kings commaunding such a thing , or of their doing the thing at his commaundement , saue the worshipping of the idoll , in so doing they could not have escaped the iust plaime of idolatry : But now I have iust cause more then one of my hearing , and amongst the rest mine edification ; & therefore cannot be challenged therein , to appr●of the ministers state , or standing , besidee that , as I formerly answered here is none idolatrous act performed .

Answ. 1. Thine owne mouth ( saith Eliphaz in Iob n n Chap. 15 , 6. condemneth thee , and not I : Yea thine owne lips testifie against thee . His application here , is indeed against himselfe : For Jf the 3 : Nobles in Daniell , had committed idolatry in falling downe before the idol● ( yea howsoever they had not intended to honour it ) because it was the knowne and publick intent of the setting up of it , to be adored , and the Kings commaundement was that it should be so : This being so , then it followes , that seing false churches and false ministers are real idols , set up by earthly Princes ; & their knowne intent by publick proclimation is , that all people within their dominions should come to them , bow before them , and by outward gestures approue of them : This I say being so , the conclusion is ( certo certius ) not lyable to exception , that whosoever comes , and bowes before those idols , cannot e●cape the iust blame of idolatry , howsoever in himselfe , hee intendeth no such thing .

And here let it bee observed ( what wee even now said ) if a man performe an action in a state , and of publick nature , he is to be considered ( in respect of himselfe ) as is that state , and according to the publick ordinances : For If the state , bee false , and the officer unlawfull , it is familisme for him to say , I knowe this state , is set up against the Lord Iesus Christ , and every commer here to worship , according to the constitution , is an idolater : but I will have in my selfe asecret meaning from the rest , and in this regard , I cannot be accounted an approver of the state , or that I doe any worship here , as the same is publickly established and intended it should be don .

The learned condenme this , and stile it grosse dissimulation , and a mocking of God . So Scarpius , o o Symphom proph. pag. 238. Caelius , p p A little Treat : to all faithfull Christ . Hemingius , q q In Ephe. c. 5. Rivetus , r r In Psa. 16 p. 53 , 54. Zanchy , s s in Comt ; 3 , p. 534 ; Mr. Philpot , t t Act. mon. pag ; 2002 ; yea the thing is so vile , as a Papist u u Called the love of the ●oule ; hath writen against it , a whole treatise .

The authors of Pirth assembly write thus : Wheresoever the publick intent of a Kirk is to worship the sacrament , every private man following that intent , is formallie an idolater : if his private intent be diverse from the publick , yet he is still materially & interpretative an idolater .

What they say , wee say : and heare lies the difference betweene our opposites and us . Wee both , grant the publick intent of a false Church , is , to have their State , Worship , and Governement , approved , x Pag. 49 ▪ But here is the ods ; they say , seing their private intention , is diverse from the publick , they are not trespassers with the publick : though in publick they doe the same action . We on the contrary affirme , seeing the publick intent of the Church , is to honour the idol , every private man following that intent is formably an idolater : if his private intent be diverse from the publick , yet he is still materially and interpretatiue an idolater .

Ismenias ( as the same authors note ) stoping downe before the king of Persia , Ibid. to take up a ring , which hee of purpose let fall ; was not excused , because this stoping in common vse , was the adoring of the Kings of Persia : Let the godly reader consider of it , take advise , and speake his mind .

2. J deny , that any man hath iust cause to heare ( in the way wee speake of ) for his edefication . For what he saith here , he produceth neither scripture nor reason , nor any authority but his own ; as if his ipse dixit , like the popes sentence were penitus definitiua , absolate difinitiue and to be rested in : but to vse his owne wordes a a Iustificat . separat . pag. 47. 48. seing he soeweth himselfe barren of Divine authority . I will proofe what I doe deny by these reasons .

1 Whatsoever Christ hath thought fitt to teach his Church & the instruments & helps whereby , that hath hee fully set downe in his word b b 2 Timot. 3 16 ▪ 17. Act. 20. 27. Ioh. 20. 30. 31. 2 Pet. 1. 3. : soe that to acknowledge any other meanes of edefication , then such as he hath appointed , is to receiue another Teacher into the Church besides him , and to confesse some in perfection in those meanes which he hath ordained for our edefication ; this argument is brought against the vaine traditions of Rome and England by Gualter c c ●n Habac . fol. 270. , Lavater d d in 1. Chron. 10. 11. , V●sinus e e Catech. par. 3. p. 758. 760. , Polanus f f Partit . Theol. pag. 83 191 ▪ , Ames g g 〈…〉 , the authors of the Abrigement h h 〈…〉 , and it holds every way as firme and good in our dispute .

P. Martyr speakes * * 〈…〉 home to this point . For as much as God ▪ is most wise , he needs not our devise for instruments to stirr up faith in vs , which thing no tradesmā in this kind would indure ; but would chuse to himselfe at his owne pleasure wha● hee should thinke most fit , &c. How bold are these 〈◊〉 who w●ll P●aescribe to God after What manner and by 〈…〉 shall edefie ●s . Soe hee .

2 Seeing our discourse 〈…〉 edefication , which Christ the onely Teacher of his Church hath appointed , then is it is set downe , by the appostle in Ephes: 4. 11. 12. 13. the reason is , because Paul there mentioneth all ministeriall meanes for the perfect and complet building of the Church from the first to the last : soe write , Fenner i i Sacr. Theol. c. 7 , p. 119. , Laiton k k Syons p. 10. , Piscator l l Aphorism . loc. 20. , Cartwright m m Repl. 1. to Whitg . p. 85. , Beza n n in Ephes. 4 , 10. , Calvin o o instit . l 4 c. 1. Sect. 5 , Polanus p p Syntag. l. 10 , & 11. , and others .

But ● thinke our Opposites wil not say , that Paul there intendeth this Hearing , as a meanes of our edification : Jf they should , l the Treat : would be against them , for hee confesseth it is not any perticular ordinance left vs by Christ . Ergo. &c.

3. As Augustine saith q q Mori fame , quam idolothytis vesci . de bono congug . c. 16. it is better to dy with famen , then to eate with Idolothites , Daniell chose rather to live upon pulse , then to be fed , with the most delicate meats from the kings table , seing they were such meat as he ought not to eat . For he knew ( as one r r Osiand . in Dan. 1. p. 367. writes on the place ) Not by the power of the meate , but by Gods divine blessing , is the body preserved : To apply this , seeing the Hearing stood for , p Pag. 37. is a spirituall eating with idolaters : and men cannot receive the food without pollution ; Our best course , is to content our selvs with what meanes of edefication , we find in Gods way , be it much or little , I say not dispise ‡ ‡ Zach. 4. 10. the day of small things : and the rather , considering , that it is not the meanes , but Gods blessing on the meanes , that edefieth vs .

4 : Whosoever takes to himselfe , a practice , which is not grounded on Gods word , and therein is strict , he is just overmuch * * D. Gouge on Ephes. 6 , 14. and presumeth bove that which is writen : and this is their case who heare unlawfull ministers for edefication .

5. Jt is not true , that a man being out of the false Church , and a visible member of a true , should bee furthered in the way grace , by returning thither to heare the word . Vpon better ground I may say , his grouth in knowledge and sincerity hereby wil be hindered , and probably he in time drawne back to his former vomit ; or if he escape ship-wrack this way , Treat. 2. par. 4 , p. 78. yet to meet with such heavy terrors of conscience , as that his time after wil be spent with griefe , and his yeares with sighing .

And here ( christian reader ) I thinke fit ; to make knowne unto thee , Cartw . Hom. in Eccles. 7 , fol. 149. what happened about 7 yeares past in England , there was a gentle man of warick sheir , by name Mr Edward Grefwold , aman very religious , as many besides my selfe can testifie : He and I , being bosome Freinds ( or to use his owne common saying o●hearts being as Davids and Ionathans , knitt together ) vpon iust cause , wee both left the parish assemblies . He afterward by the meanes of some crafty men , was perswaded vnto hearing againe : vpon this he fell into great troble of spirit , and could have no feeling assurance of any peace with God : remaining thus awhile , at length he sent a letter by his servant vnto me ( the which I have kept a long time by mee ) in this letter he largely acknowledgeth his offence , and among other passages writes thus : You , ah you are happy : but I by my fall am miserable and wretched : and for the present time , I feele my soule to bee no otherwise , then if it were in hell : &c , ever since I went to their Assemblies I have observed the Lords hand against me : &c , wherefore I beseech you by the mercices of God , set a day apart for mee , and seeke the almighty by fasting and praying , that the waterflood over flow mee not : &c. what his refreshings were after this , J cannot say , the report is , that to his changing , he had sad & sorrowfull dayes : notwithstanding I am confident , that his soule is with Christ in paradise . As I am writing this , I thinke of the words in the Prophet s s Psal. 119 120. My flesh trembleth for feare of thee , and I am afraid of thy judgments . He that is wise will consider of these things : For as one * * Hal. antiq. Rom. l. 11. saith providing before is better then repenting afterward .

It is no marvaile that false churches by some are called Officina scelerum , & carnificina sanctorum , shops of wickednes , and chambles of the saints ; for what can a tender conscience expect in frequenting them , but indeed , pricks , racks , and tortures . Aquila & Symmachus for the Hebrew Aven , which signifieth the false state vnder Jeroboam , render it in Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an vnprofitable house : and well they might for whosoever goes to such houses , he may be sure he shall lose by it . And this is the judgment of Botsach a a Prompt . alleg . c. 21 , de minist. , Lutz b b In Evang ; Dom. 8 , post pent . p 339. , Polanus c c In Ezech. 44 ▪ pag. 800. , Pelargus d , and others . And whereas some put difference betweene the Preachers there ; as one sayth e the best are the worst : a Quaest. Evang in Mat. 23. Motives to the king and state , Pag. 32. For these as evill workers , secretly , and by degrees , and with as little noyse as may bee , seeke to keepe people in errour and disorder .

3. The consequence of his ( therefore ) conclusion , no logician can make it good : For he argueth iust for all the world , as if one should say , Because I goe to the assize or session for right or to schoole for education , therefore I cannot be chalenged therin , to approve of the Iudge , Iustice , or maister their state or standing : J could goe on thus a tribus ad centum , for there is no end of such absurdities ; the very naming whereof , is answere enought .

But to the point , the Treat here yeelds the cause ; For if a man shall heare in a false church for edefication ; therein he approues directly of the state , For this is a sure thing ( and let it be noted ) no administration performed in a state , and by a power and constituted office , can bee sought , e e There are maine difference betweene a mans bare presence in a constituted stat● ; as beeing there , unawares , unwillingly , or by compulsion ; & presence there of purpose to partake of the admistrations . desired & receaved , but in so doing , the doer ( Ipso facto ) really approves of that state , power , and office be the same lawfull or unlawfull . And as for any mans saying to the contrary , it is sine capite fabula , a vision of his own head , and will prove as good as the miracles which Iamnes and Iambres wrought , even meanes to harden his owne heart and some others , as they did Pharoahs by doing them .

Lastly where as hee tels vs , Hee hath formerlie said here is noe idolatrous act performed , in stead of this twice sodden Coleworth , I looked hee should have alleaged some Scriptures from whence this might have beene gathered , or concluded at the least , or brought some convincing argument , which might have cleared it , or if none of those , yet that he would have shewed some authority or author , which had soe written or spoken ; but here is deepe silence ; and we must take all ( pro confesso , ) vpon his bare word ; but by his leave , wee purpose to try his novelties , and not take them vpon trust .

And howsoever I have said enought before in confutation of this , yet I will add a word more , and the rather , because not only is this a main point between vs , but also here is a ground laid , for grosse idolaters , to iustifie their evils by : For If in preaching of the truths of the Gospel in a false Church ( say by a Pope , a Cardinall , an Arch-bishop , a Lord-Bishop , or any other enemy of God ) no idolatry be done , then may a man worship God in a way of his own divising blamelesse . We have hitherto been instructed , that unto divine worship two things are required , matter and manner , First it must be a true matter of worship , grounded on the word : Secondly done in aright and lawfull manner , order , forme , way , &c. and if either of those be wanting , it cannot be a resonable service ; and of this judgement were Perkins , f f Jdolat . last times , p. 674. 675. last volum . Brinsley , g g True watch , p 28. Elton h h On Colos. p. 308. , Dod , i i On the command . 2. Hieron , k k On Psa. 51 , pag. 4. Bates , l l His booke against Ceremonies , p. 191. Trailor , m m On Tit. c. 3. v. 10. p. 715. and others . But according to the Treat : teaching the later here , is ( etrivio ) of noe vse at all ; for so a man preach the truths of the Gospell he doth no Idolatrous act ; although in the mean time he exercise an antichristian office ; hence this must follow : viz , soe the truth be preached it is no matter whether the preacher bee sent from Antichrist , or from Christ ; nor whether he preach at Dan and Bethell , or at Ierusalem in the temple . For if the former committ no idolatrous act , hee is then as blamles in his way , as the latter is in his . Better the Treat , had spared his words , and lookd better to his answere , or eat them both , then to blott paper , and abuse the reader with such unsound and hurtfall assertions .

SECT. 6.

OVr . 4. Objection is laid downe for vs thus : Hee that heares them preach , heares them as ministers of the Church of England , and as sent by the Bishops , and soe in hearing them heares & receaves them that sent them : according to that of our Saviour hee that heares you , heares me , and hee that dispiseth you , dispiseth me , and hee that dispiseth mee dispiseth him that sent mee .

It was some addition to Davids n n 1 Sam 17 ▪ 51. victory over the Philistime , that he slew him with his owne sword . The ta●ke is very easie , to confute all that the Treat : here writes against vs , by the engine of his owne acknowledgements : For to say the truth , Howsoever hee frames Objections for vs , yet originally they are his owne , and even word for word published by himself in former books to the world : so that Obliquus cursus forgetting ( as it were ) What he had before held and written , he makes himselfe in this controversie his owne greatest opposite .

Th●t this Objection can call no man Father , so properly as the Treat ; Jt is certane ; for to my knowledge no man but himselfe hath used it : Indeed he hath done it , and applyed i●to the same purpose , that he brings it here for us , that is , against the Hearing of unlawfull Ministers . His words are these o o Manumiss : to a Manuduct . pag: 9. .

If it belong to the chief Prelates to call Ministers , & that in calling them , they give them power and authority ( though no absolute charge ) to preach according to the order of that Church ; Then followeth it undeniably , that those Ministers thus preaching doo therein exercise the Prelates power : And that it may be said of the Ministers , & Bishops , as Christ said of his Disciples and himselfe , that whosoever receives them that are sent , receives them that sent them . In submitting unto , or withdrawing from him that is sent by the King in a worke of his Office , men doe submitt unto , or with-draw from the King himselfe , and his authority ; So it is in all estates and subordinations whether Ecclesiasticall or Civill ; as every one that is not dimme in himselfe , may see by the light of nature . So writes the Treat : Now let us see how he confutes himselfe .

I grant the former part of the Objection , Treat : and account the denying of it a point of Familisme , seeing the Officers of publique states in the executing of their offices , are to be esteemed according to the publick Lawes and Orders of those states , and not according to any under hand course or intention either by themselves or others .

Answ. A man that goes with a vaile before his eyes ; comes now and then into his waye , although he know it not . The Treat . in this walke about Hearing in false Churches , is sometimes cut , otherwhile in , he sayes and unsayes ; But so farre as he speakes the truth , he speakes it against himselfe : for his answer here , it is nothing but a yeelding the case , in some compasse and circumlocution of words ; and that the Reader may perceive it is so , I will make it obvious and cleare to him by an argument or two ; and first thus :

If to heare Antichristian Ministers , be to serve God in , and by an ordinance , way , or institution , devised by idolaters , and with idolaters ; Then is it unlawfull .

But the first is true , therefore the second .

The proposition is undeniable by the Treat . owne confession : For he grants that 〈◊〉 course of hearing is no ordinance left us by Christ : Then 〈◊〉 it must be from Antichrist : Againe he professeth ▪ they 〈…〉 as they preach , and preach as Ministers of the 〈…〉 according to the publicke 〈…〉 is , to speake 〈…〉 forme religious worship to God , in , and by a publick ordinance , way and state which idolaters have invented , and with idolaters .

This I say ( aperto pectore ) he grants to the full : And no marvaile , for to deny it , were an audacious fiction , monstrous unparelled presumption ▪ and would marke a man out , for an Athesticall Familist , as perspicuous as the leprosie of Vzziah , which brake forth in his forehead .

The Assumption is as manifest ; For 1. by the Scriptures a a Deu. 12. 30. Levit , 18. 3. Exo. 23. 24. Levit. 9 , 27. 28. Deu. 14. 1 Levit. 19. 17. Gen. 35. 2. 3. Esa , 27. 9. wee are prohibited from all conformitie with idolaters in any of their wayes , order , and manner of worship , and Religious Observations . It was the custome b b Herodot . in Thalia : Becan . in analog . vet. & nov. Test . c. 15. of the Arabians and other Heathens , in imitation of Dyonisius , that is Bacchus , to round the corners of their head ; Now this the Israelites might not doe c c Levit. 19. 27. ( though in it selfe an indifferent thing d d Calvin . in Levit. 19. 17. ) because God would not have them to bee like idolaters .

This also may be further proved by the testimonie of learned men ; For to have any thing common with idolaters , or to serve God after any way of theirs ; Or to take up , and make use of any of their rites , orders , observations , institutions for to worshipp God in , or by them : they hold to be unlawfull . Yea howbeit a man be not in Ecclesiasticall union with them . Thus have the old Fathers affirmed e e Tertull : de Coron. Milit. Greg. lib. 1. Epist. 44. ad Leon. Theod ▪ l. 1. c. 10. August . Epist. 86. ad Casul . ; So our later writers : Calvinists f f Pareus in 1 Cor. 10 ▪ 14. Bucer in Mat. 18. fol. 143. Beza Tract . Theol. vol. 3. pag. 210. , Lutherans g g Cent. 4. c. 13 col. 406. Chemn●t . Exam. Theol. Melanct. par. 2. pag. 491. , formall Protestants h h B. Iewell upon 1. Thes. 5. p. 219. Sulclief . Chal. pag. 62. in England , Reformists i i Perth . assemb . p. 55. 56. Alt. Damas . p. 539. Papists k k Bellar. de Monach. c. 40. & de effect . sacr. l. 2. c. 31. Sect. 10. Rhemist . annot. on 1. Cor. 6. 14. & 1. Timot. 6. Sect. 4. in Apoc. 1. 10. , and Schoolemen l l Aquin. 1. 2 a. q. 102. Art. 6. c. 6. m. , yea many Iew-Doctors m m See Mr. Ainsworth in Levit. 19. 27. , some Councils n n Toledo Can. 5. & 40. Laod. c. 38. Brac. Can. 32. & 73. , have thus concluded , and the Cannon-Law o o Deer . Par. 2. Caus. 26. quaest. 7. c. 13. &c. 14. &c. 17. speakes so too .

And here I desire the Reader to observe , that were the grounds true which he layes downe for hearing : to wit , that there is no Religious Communion betweene the persons preaching and hearing ; They cannot be chalenged to approve of the Ministers state or standing : They have no communion with the office of the Ministery , &c. I say , were these things so , ( which are not ) yet would this practice be found sinfull ; because ( as we have before shewed ) herein men worshipp God in , or by a way and meanes , which idolaters have instituted .

Our second argument is taken from the Treat . words following , which are these : Treat . I professe I heare them , as Ministers of the Bb. sending , and of the Parishes sent 〈◊〉 . Hence I argue thus :

He that heares the Ministers of the Bb. sending , and of the Parishes sent too : hee heares ( in the sence of the Scriptures ) false Prophets : But it is not lawfull to heare false Prophets :

Therefore it is not lawfull to heare the Ministers of the Bb ▪ sending , or of the Parishes sent too .

The Major is proved clearely in the defence of our 12. Objection . The Minor is certaine by these reasons .

1. The hearing of false Prophets is forbidden in the Word of God a a Ex. 20. 5. Pro. 5. 8. Mat. 7 15. Philip. 3. 2. 1. Timot. 5. 22. . 2. The practice of it is will-worshipp b b Joh. 4. 23. Rom. 12. 1. 2. Mat. 15. 9 ▪ Col. 2. 23 ; the which is vnacceptable to God . 3. It is to rebel against the Lord , and to seeke what is in man , to uphold that thing which the Lord will cast downe and consume . c c Num. 16. 2 Thes. 2. 10. 11. Rev. 18. 1. 2. 1 Sam. 15. 22. 4. This is to embrace the bosome of a stranger , & so to committ spirituall whoredome against the Lord d d Pro. 5. 20. Psal. 106. 39. . 5. It defileth the name of God e e Ezech. 43. 7. 8. . 6. This is to hold conformitie with idolaters , and to be like them ; The which thing ought not to be f f Levit. 18. 3. and 19. 19. 27. 28. Exo. 23. 24. Deu. 12. 30. 32. . 7. It shewes that a man is not one of Christ sheepe , but carnall and unconverted g g Ioh. 10. 4. Esa. 30. 22 , & 27. 9. . 8. It manifesteth great want of the love and zeale of God h h 2 King . 23. 4. Rev. 2. 3. 4. Psal. 119. 128. Ioh. 2. 16. . 9. It is to serve Satan and Anti-Christ ; as it is written : His servants ye are whome ye obey i i 2 Chro. 11 , 14. Rev. 9. 20. .

10. It defiles the soule k k Eze. 20 ▪ 7 Lastly , the doer hereby is exposed , to the wrath of God l l Re. 144. 2. Thes. 2. 8 , 10. .

Thus the Treat : like the Bee is drownd in his owne Honie ; And truely pitty it is , but all pleaders for Baal were alwayes thus entangled in their owne words , Rev. 14 ▪ 9 Eze. 16. 54. according to that in Ovid.

Non est lex iustior ulla Quam necis artifices arte peri●e sua .

The Treat . Lib. 2. de arte amand . speakes on thus : But not as my Ministers , either sending , Treat : or sent to , except I be of those Parishes , or at least in Ecclesiasticall Vnion with them .

Answ. A man bent to declyning , is glad of every couler which he may pretend to justifie him●el●e in declyning ; It is a poore distinction , which he use●h here to declyne the point in question : For 1. what use was there to tell us , He beares them not as his Ministers ; This well might have beene spared , and something said , to warrant by Scripture the hearing of them at all . If a woman be accused of adultery , and to excuse her selfe , shall suy : The adulterer is in no covenant or band with mee . Is this enought to cleare her ? No. I have proved before , that all religious performances in false Churches , are idolatrous actions ; Now then to worship God there , & for excuse to say , we are not in Ecclesiastical union with the state or Ministery ; I may well say ( lingua quo vadit ) it is idly spoken ; and much like the Fryars plea , we are exempted Lord .

Againe , for his distinction , it is the same which Papists , and others alleadge , to justifie there idol-Ceremonies ; They say , how soever these are things , which Iewes & Pagans did be ore them , yet their end and respect in doing them , is different . What is said of some , in answer thereunto , I may here say the like : To practice that thing in Gods worshipp , which neither directly nor consequently is included in the word , is an open breach of Gods Law , bee the doers meaning this or that .

What jealous or wife husband , if his wife should receive some love-tokens from a knowne adulterer & one that goes about to undermine her honestie ; would take it for a sufficient excuse , if she should say , I receive indeed such things from a knowne adulterer , and as he is an adulterer , but not wine &c. The weight of the Treat : distinction , lies betweene meum & tuum ; Hee pro●esseth to reciue love-guifts from spirituall adulterers and as they are so , but not his .

Now I maruaile how his pen could drop such poysen , and he not smell the stinck of it When he wrote it . I wish all men in all places , to take heed , that they deceave not their owne soules by such folish distinctions : for if such things will not stand before sor-ry-man : how then before the greate God , Who is a jealous husband , and a consuming fire .

Now let vs heare what followes in the Treat : Treat . By hearing and receiving there , Christ meanes properly the hearkening too , beleiving & obeying the doctrine taught by the Apostles , which many dispised , vnto whome he opposeth the former that heard it .

Answ: He that comes to the field without his weapon it is an argument , he meanes to save himselfe by flying , and not by fighting . Whether the Treat : had on any armour to fight with against this objection . I will not determine , but this I say ( and will abide by it ) he flyes away from the poynt , and speakes nothing either for it , or against it : For 1. Were his distinction granted , betweene hearing them as BB: Ministers , and not as his . And againe that by receiving the Apostles , Christ meanes properly hearking to , and obeying their doctrines . I say suppose this ( but I grant it not ) yet doth not this take a way the weight of our reason , nor in truth so much as touch it .

I shall expect that he who comes nex to the field , in the behalfe of Antichristian Ministers , doe prepare a better Answer to this objection . And that he may know , what he hath to confute , I will a litle inlarge the poynt .

1. The Treat . in applying hearing & receiving to the doctrines of the Apostles , doth not well ; For the first only respects their teaching , the latter their persons ; This is evident in the Text Mat. 10. 14. whosoever shall not receiue you , and hea●e my words &c. Implying that Christ is two wayes received , in the ministerie of the Gospel ; viz. In the person of the Teacher , and in the doctrines taught by him . And thus doe out best Expositers vnderstand the place . Caluine , Pareus , Piscator , Aretius , Musculus .

It is further to be noted , where Christ sayh ▪ he that receiveth you , receiveth me &c. His meaning is that such as hearken to , and obey the doctrines of his Ministers , therein doe acknowledge his authority , power & kingly office over his Church , to appoynt her lawes , I meane in a worke of their ●ffice . offices , ordinances ; &c. and also the fathers donation or the delivering up of the same into his sonnes hand .

To apply this ; As they who hearken vnto Christs ministers ; doe therein approue of his lawfull power over his Church , & of the fathers guift this way to him ; soe contrariwise , such as hearken * to Antichrists Ministers , doe therein approue of Antichrists vnlawfull power over the false Church , and the devils ‡ ‡ Satan is the author of false ministries in the apostasie of the man of sin . donation ; or his putting of that power into his eldest sons hands . If any say we intend not so , I answere ( Res ipsa aliud ostendit ) the action which they do is so . quid verba audiam cum factae videam . And here that saying of a learned ( a ) man is fulfulled : There are some ▪ which deny that they worship Idolls , T. C. Repl 1. p. 88. & 204. when in the meane time their owne doings chargeth them with it : Now there are too many in those daies grosly guilty this way .

His next words are , Lavat . in Iosh. 22. Hom. 61. Treat . The Minissters in the Parishes , haue not the doctrines of the Gospel from the Bishops as they haue their offices , but from God in his word .

Answ. It was a law b b Eugin . Boron . Iure consult . l. 1. p. 120. among the Romanes , that whosoever passed not into their Citty at the gates , but attempted to break throw the walls , or to clyme over them , should be put to death . The Treat . in pressing the hearing of the truths of the Gospel , would perswade us , so we do receiue them , it is no matter whether it be by order or disorder , whether from the Ministers ; of Christ or Antichrist . Whether in a true Church , or in a false . But this counsell we cannot take , because to our knowledge , ther is a divine statute in force against it : & therefore as we must c c T. C. Repl. 1. p 155. care for the truth , so must we care of whom we haue it : & he giues this reason . d d Ibid. p. 83. As God hath ordained that the truth should be preached , so also hath he ordained in what order , and by whom it should be preached . We may not therefore adventure e e Penry Exhort . to the govern . of Wales pag. 46. to go vnto him for those , things , which he hath no commission to deliver .

Suppose Carah or some other in that Conspirasy , should haue said thus : Come to us yee men of Israell , and hearken to ; beleeve and Obey the truths taught in our Tents . If you object that our Calling is anti-Mosaicall and false : we answer , this cannot be any barre or let in the thing , seeing the doctrines we teach are from God in his law .

J cannot see according to the Treat . arguing , how in such a case they could haue staid without : for if we may go into the Sinagogues of Antichrist ; so the Doctrines of the Gospel be there preached ? I would know then of our Opposites , why an Israelite vpon the same ground ( viz. to heare the Doctrines of the law ) might not haue gon with them rebels into their Tents . I beleeve if we come to open termes , these will be found to be par pari things alike , and the one as lawfull as the other , & both starke naught .

But to come more neerer to the point , the thing which the Treat , harpes most vpon , is , that they teach the truth : And our opposites vse this as their speciall and main position viz. Where the truth is taught , there they may lawfully heare . To discover their follow herein . J pray let it be minded what was said before , As the hearing in question , is a religious action , so to haue it lawfull and good , the circumstances perteyning to it , must necessarily be observed , of which circumstances the truth taught , is only one particular . It is a received maxime both in divinity and Philosophie , that circumstances make actions formally good or bad , so write Junius f f De pol. , Aquinas g g 1a . 2 a. q. 8. Art: 3 ▪ , Camerius h h Praelect ▪ Tom. 2. p. 49. , and Burgesse i i of the lawfullnes of kneeling C. 1. confesseth they are intrinsecall and essentiall to actions , and especially making up there nature . Fed : Morellus vpon these words of Seneca , k Scho. 2. Lib. refert quid , cui , quando , quare , saith that without these circumstances of things , persons , time , place &c. facti ratio non constat . Friar Ambrosius Caturinus l l Counc . l. 2 p. 224. following the doctrine of Thomas , meanteyneth in the covnsell of Trent , that to do a-good worke the concurrance of all circumstances is necessary .

What these circumstances or parts are , is shewd in that old vers. Quis , quid , vbi , quibus auxilijs , cur , quomodo , quando . And to apply them to our point , howsoever it be granted , that their teaching may be without vitium rei , yet in it there is vitium perfōae , loci , ordinis , relationis , &c as the. Tr● . * * in aletter to D. Ames published in Brownists schis . phraseth it else wher .

1. The Person designed is not lawfully called : now a false Office and a true worship ( are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) they are no way compatible . 2. As it respects the place , ( that is the Idoll-Churchstate ) so it is to worship God there , where he hath forbidden men to worship him . 3. For the instruments and meanes , in this men make themselues beholding to Antichrist , for his order , constitution , manner and way to serue God in , and by . Now fye for shame , that any should be so base , as to scrape acquentance with that Babylonian whore , who is the greatest enimy that the Lord hath vpon the earth . I● is a most certaine ●igne ( saith one m m Estque merae proditionis certissimum indicium si quis aliquem ex suis , videat , concilia clam cum hoste captantem aut in eius aurem insu●ure antem . of a very traitour , when a man shall see one of his owne , take secret counsell with his enimy , & whisper him in the eare .

Touching the other circumstances : viz. why , how , when : these all are also here wanting , as I could instance in sundry particulars , if need were . But to winde vp all , & bring all the former into some fewer heads . the goodnesse or badnesse of divine worship , is to be considered either in actu signato and quo ad specium : or in actu exercito and quo ad individium . Divine worship is said to be speciated by its object , and individuated , by its circumstances : when divine worship is good or evill , in respect . of the object of it . we say it is good or evill , quo ad speciem . when in respect of the circumstances , we terme it good or evill quo ad invidium . Cartewr . kist . ch. l. 1. p. 253. Now I will not deny , but this hearing worship quo ad specium , as God is made the object of it , so it is right : but quo ad invidium , as it hath circumstances and parts , so it is a false worship : and this is so cleare a truth as no man will deny it vnlesse the denier will deny all religion and reason , all sence ' and scinence . It is not sufficient ( saith Rivetus n n Comment , in Hos , 4 , 14 , p , 152 , vnto them true wor' shippe of God , that a man erres not in the object which he ought to worship , that is , if he propose to himselfe to worship the true God , but also that , that manner bee exactly kept , which God hath prascriin his law : from the tenour or rule whereof whosoever in the least departeth the same cannot be held lawfull .

He endes thus : Treat . And so farre forth as a man heares , that is bearken too , & reciues them by receiving it , he so farre bearkens too & receives Christ . 〈…〉

Answ. This is spoken gratis , and without any foundation , and therefore not more easily avouched then rejected . But say we grant that So farre forth Christ is hearkened too , &c. yet doth not this hinder but So farre forth as he heares in an Antichristitian assembly and a false officer , 〈…〉 and performes a religious worship in away and manner which Idolaters haue divised , &c. I say let his ( so farre ) stand , yet in these respects and consideration , He so farre forth hearkens too and receiues Antichrist .

If I should put over the Treat , reasoning in spiriturl things , to things civill and worldly : the very expression of them , would make them odious : For suppose aman should vse the helpe of a known sorcerer , to recouer some lost gould or silver ; & being afterward reproved for it , would reply , Seeing they were good things & from God , hee did well therefore to get them in the way & manner that hee tooke . Or if a theese offering certaine stollen goods , should perswade another to receive them , because howsoever he hath no right to give such things away , yet seing they are good , and from God , hee may take them safely : for it is all one , whether they are received in away of false-hood & theift , or by the Ieaue and grant of the true owner ,

If these things appeare vile and absurd , no otherwise is his reasoning here , if it be with the eye of Iudgment lookd vpon : the Priests for whom he pleads , in the Scriptures are said to be robbers and theeues , yea Spirituall sorcery is charged vpon them . But all this with the Treat . is nothing ; For so they deliver good things , the same may be received from them in a worke of their office . But if a man stood before an earthly Iudge , accused of vsing a forcerers assistance to recover his lost mony● or for receiving goods from a knowne theise , it would not free him to say , the things are good which I tooke . Neither will it excuse men when they shall appeare before the Iudgment seat of Christ , to say it was the truth which they heard , though not in the way and order , which the word taught them .

Be not deceived God is not mocked : Gal. 6 , 7. for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reape .

SECT. 7.

NOw we come to the 5 Objection , the which is laid down for us , by the Treat . thus : Yet such as heare them , haue communion with their office of Ministery , what in them lyes .

It is the manner of some to set up markes , and afterwardes to shew their art , in shooting of them downe againe . One would thinke that the Treat . former writings against the hearing of false Ministers , were written by him , to be ( as it were ) his But marke , that thereby he might shew his skill and witt in striking downe the same afterwards . Touching the objection which he here frames for vs , & vndertakes the confutation of ; It is his owne , and vnder his owne hand , even word for word published to the world , and in defence of the same thing which he brings it here for vs : as the Reader may see in his manumissi on to a manuduction : pag. 5.

But to let this passe , hoping it was rather a slip in his penne , then a downfall in his judgment : Let us see now how he hits the marke , his answer to it is thus .

That is , they haue no communion at all with it , if it ly not in them to haue any , as it doth not . If I hold vp my hand as high as I can , I touch heaven with my finger , what in me lies , do I therefore at all touch it : if such thinke to haue , or that they haue any such communion , it is their errour and Ignorance , but makes not the thing to be the more then if they thought not so .

This is all his answer ( a capite vsque ad pedes ) from head to foot . Vnto the which I answer : 1. To his peremptory affirmation , ( they haue no communion at al ) may apply the saying fathered on the old Philosopher multa dicti●sed pauca probat . I le speakes much , but proues little : For our parts ( as I haue said ) we cannot take his bare saying , de iure et de fide , to bee a rule of faith to us , For our consciences are not ( like Sampsons shoulders ) strong enough to beare it ,

2. He dallies & deceives by a generall & ambigious terme of Communion : If it be intended in the order & way of Church-state , it is true then here is no such communion , as haue members gathered into a body politick . But if by the word we vnderstand such a communion , as makes the hearer really pertaker of the sinne of the Officer ; in this sence here is a communion of fellowshipp . For 1. Hereby is allowance and approbation given vnto a work of darknes ; I say his very presence there to heare , is an open countenancing of an vnlawfull officer in an vnrghtteous course , tanquam legimae et sacrae actionis approbatio . As Davenat . a a deter● Quaest. 7. p 40. Slater b b Explic. Anal : in 1 Cor. C. 2 p. 92. and others note in the like case .

2. It is apparent to a right discerning eye , that the ministers of Antichrist , in all acts of their ministery , do vse such waies and inventions in worshipping of God , as are not commanded of God in his word , but be devises of men . Now whosoever joynes with them in the practice of such worship , becomes a pertaker of their sinne and trangression . Of this writes Ioan. David . c c Veridicus Christian . c , 28 , p , 7. And the reason is , because he commits will-worship : for what is well-worship ? but to worship God not after his appointment , but our owne . And hence was Ahaz an Jdolater , eo ipso , for that as P. Martyr d d Comment: in 2 Reg , ● , 17 notes , he tooke the patterne of an Alter from Idolaters to serue the true God , with it & by it .

3. When Israell did eat with the Moabites , they did communicate e e Ainsw ; Annot , on Numb , 25 , 2 , with them : but how was it ? it was in that the meat there given and taken , was in a publick way of a false institution . This holds proportionably true here : for we cannot separate the false state of the office , from the administrations done by vertue of it , that is to make the latter so ours , as not to be polluted in one respect or other with the foulnes of the former . Zanchie f f Quicumque facris ali cuius comunicat , is particeps quoque ; sic ejus , ad cujus c ●emmuni onemha bendam et conferuandam sacra illa sunt ordinata . de vitio , ext . cult● . Opp. l. 1. Thes 11. cleares this very well . Whosoever communicateh in the holy things of another , he is made partaker with him , for whose communion the holy things ordained , are kept & obserued .

3. For his comparison , it is soe farre fetch , as that it comes not home to the matter , but is an evill and idle wandring from it . When Saul fought to excuse himselfe , he was demaunded of Samuell , e e 1 Sam. 15. quid ergo sin vult vox pecuduin astarum , what meaneth then the bleating of the sheepe in my eares : we may aske the like of those men , who say it is no sinne to heare in false Churches . what meanes your vncouering the head and bowing the knee before idol ? your keeping companie with Idolaters in their publick worship ? your observing the time and comming to the place of their worship ? your serving of God in such a way ? is bring it to the text of the word , compare it with the example of the Prophets , Christ & his Apostles , bring it to the practice of the primitive Churches : it is quite differing from it .

wee are sure in a true Church , the bending of the knee ‡ ‡ Psalme 95. 6. , & other signes of reverence , is to giue honour and countinance to that state . Now the reason of contraries is a like , and therefore as Calvin f f Comment. in 1 Corin. 15. saith , the same being done in a false Church , is no lesse allowance and approbation of it : J say againe every reverend submissive gesture , * * Deut. 5 9 hos. 13. 12 Eze 18 6. 1 Cor. 10. 16. 18. as bowing downe , kneeling , prostrating , lifting vp of the eyes , and all other like lowly and louely behaviour do appertain and lead to Idolatry .

Againe if the Ordinances of God , do associate and ioyne the the faithfull with God , then the observation of superstitious institutions must needs linck men to the society of Idols , and so reasoneth the said Calvin g g Ibid. 2. 17. And for any to say , they do not countinance such Churches and Ministeries , or they will not ; herein their acts giue their tongue the lie , for we are not to Iudge of a worke , h h Non exarcana intentione operantis , sed ex manifesta conditione operis . Davan . Quaest. Determ . pag 40. by the secret intention of the doer , but by the outward condition of the worke it selfe . For what Augustine i i Eo damnabilius agit , quia quod mendaciter agit , sic agit tamen , vt eum populus veraciter agere existimet . De Civit. 16 , C. 10. blames Senica the Philosopher , may be said and truely applyed to these men , in this he did the more wickedly because what he did , he did lyingly , for he did it so , as that the people though he did it truely . If the Corinthians sinned , when they sate downe at the Idols table , because they kept them company whose end was superstitious , then it follows questio●●● , that where the publick end of a people is to committ will , worship , whosoever hath any fellowship with them , is partaker of the same vngodlines . Now no man J dare say , will affirme , that the publick end and intention of the people , is not to allow , honour , and reverence , their false Church , ministery , Government &c , therefore howsoever some particulars , intend not so , yet ioyning with such , as so professe and practice , they are guiltie * * Society in sinne bringeth felloship in wrath . Forbes Com. in Rev. 18. pa 189. of the same sinne , though I will not say in measure & degree a like .

4. Howsoever the comparison here brought , proues nothing : yet so much there is in it , as it overthrowes the cause he stands for . For be it granted , that a man holding vp his hand as high as he can , doth not touch heaven materially , yet vnderstanding it in another way or sence , he may be said , and that truely to do it . ‡ ‡ I desire our opposites to speake here sincerely as of God , in the sight of God , whether a man bee lesse bound to make vse of any institution of Antichrist , in divine worship : then bound , to joyn with a Harlot in any practice of her vncleannes . As for example : suppose a man with a lustful desire , put forth his hand after a woman who is locked vp , & so out of his reach , doth he not touch her ? yes saith Christ , and hath committed adultery with her k k Mat. 5 28. Againe say he covet his neighbours monie , and lift vp his hand as high as he can after it : doth he not touch it , though the same be out of his reach ? yes saith God , for he breakes the tenth commandement l l Exod. 20. 7. In short , imagine , a man treacherously minded , streach forth his hand after the Prince , doth the not touch him , albeit the other be out of his reach ? indeed Gods law and mans law too , so concludeth . Hence then I conclude thus ;

Whosoever lusteth after aspirituall harlot , committeth with her spirituall adultery . But such as heare the word in false Churches do so : Ergo , &c.

The later part of the argument , which is onely doubtfull , is proved by opening and applying the similitude thus . As they commit carnall whoredome , who haue fellowship with harlots in any degree ; kinde , or Practice of their whoredomes : so in this cause , it must needs be spirituall adultery , to heare the word in the way and manner we despute of : because it is to haue a fellowship or society with the great whoorantichrist : I say it is to go all along with him in some acts , orders , and deuices of his spirituall whoredomes . And what I here lay down , is laid downe by the best learned in all ages , viz. that we must go out from idolaters , as not to be behoulding to them , for any of their rites , or ders , institutions : neither serve the Lord in , or by any helpes , meanes , furtherances of their sinfull devices , for to do otherwise , is to commit spirituall adultery with them : so write Agustine m m Confes , lib 6 , c. 2. , Haeimo n n Comment. 1. Corin , c. 10. v , 17. , Calvin o o Serm. on Levit. 19 27 , p. 207. , Bucer p p In censu●a c 9 , fol. 4. 71 , , Martyr q q Comment. on Iudg c. 2 v 3. , Polanus r r Comment in Eze c 12 p 229 , Pareus s s Comment. in Hos c. 2. 16 , 17. , Zanchus t t Comment , in Hos c. 16 , 17. , Ainsworth u u Arrow against Idolat . c 2 , p 8 , Iacob x x Expofit ; on comm 2. , Marburie y y Catech. on comm 2 , Bilson z z Answ. to the Apol. of the semin . p , 22. Iesuitisme par , 2 , p , 515. , D. Humfrey ( a ) and others . ,

5. If a mans cause should be judged , onely as his adversary laies it down , it would bee a great prejudice and losse to him . might we haue liberty to speake in our owne cause , we would bring in more exceptions against their delectable thing b b Isa. 44 , 9 , then the state of the officer , albeit the Treat , speakes but little else for vs .

For 1. In this kinde of hearing , men vndertake to doe an impossible thing that is to serve two Masters , viz Christ and Antichrist , and each opposite to other , and requiring diverse and contrary service at on and the same time c c se a booke intituled a light for the ignorant or the 3. estates . ffor the first commands that the doctrines of the Gospell bee heard in a true Church , and Taught by a lawfull minister , and forbids the contrary , the later prohibiteth what the former requireth , and requires that the word he heard , in a false Church , and taught by an vnlawfull minister . Now whether it be right in the sight of God to obey Christ rather then Antichrist judge ye . d d Acts 4 , 19

2. This is not only to simbolize with Idolaters , and to give speciall honour to Antichrist , as we haue before proued : but also a reviving of an errour held by certaine old Hereticks , as the Nicolaitans , e e Irenaen : l ; 1 ; c. 27 , Euseb: l : 3 , c , 29. Bisilides f f Cent , c , 5 , p , 77. , Helchesaits g g Cent , 3 , c , 4 , p , 98. Priscillanists h h Cent , 4 , c , 5 , p , 403. , &c. condemned inscripture , & by the fathers which lived in them times . Their errour was , that Christians in worshiping of God , might outwardly conform themselvs vnto the practice of such waies & means as Idolaters had divised , yet so , as they did inwardly & secretly dislike of the intentió & ends , which the others had in the observation & use of them . Our opposites are here ( manium inania consilium ) in judgment alike corrupt with them . For though they daube it over with more artificiall cunning , to make their , delusion the stronger , yet for their principles & maine grounds ( aspis a vipera ) they are all one and alike , as I shall make it good whensoever any of them gives me occasion to reply .

3. It is such an act of religion as the paltre petigree of it , is only grounded vpon the witt and will of man , voyd of all scripture , yea indeed all shew therof , & therfor by learned rightly termed a mocking of God i i Luther in Amos c , 7 p. 134 , grosse superstition k k Lavarat in los . 22. , great rebellion l l P. Mart in 1 Sam. 15. , & wichcraft .

4. n n ibid 2128. It is so vile a thing as our blessed Martyrs , would rather giue their bodies to the fier then doe it . witnesse , Thomas Reed m m Acts & Monum , pag ; 2197 , & his wife and daughter , Rafe Allerton o o bid 2●08 : , Iohn Fetty p p ibid 2256. , Iohn Moyes q q ibid 2217 : , John Hallingdale r r ibid 2222. , Joan Wast s s ibid 2134. , Thomas Whut ●ll t t ibid 2029 : , I fabell Foster u u ibid 2030. Iohn Cavill x x ibid 2074. , Thomas Spicer y y ibid 2092. Thomas Ha●land a a ibid 2099. , Iohn Rough b b ibid 2226. , Roger Barnard c c ibid 2098 : , Adam Foster d d ibid 2099. , Robert Lawson e , John Carelesse f f ibid 2114. , Alice Benden g g ibid 2167. , Thomas Harding h h ibid 1117 ; , William Tims i i ibid 2078. , mother Sem●n & her Soane k k ibid 2234 : , Angels wife l l ibid 2299. , & many more . If any should object but these went not to the Church because of the Masse : I answer ; 1. they refused to goe thither at all . 2. many of them shewed their dislike against this Hearinge in particular , and suffered for it greevious persecution , as the Reader may see in the places quoted .

5. By this meanes men breake their vow which they haue vowed vnto God : Among other vows vnder the Law , the Iews had one which they named Cherem * that is of the curse , a word derived of Charam , to wast , destroy , kill &c. and it implied that such a thing , was seperated and quite set of , and so a great sin , either to-touch it , or put it to any vse afterwards , Such a Vow doe all the faythfull make , when leaving Babilon , they plant their feete in the pleasant waies of Sion . Their promise then is , not to touch the vncleane thing any more , but vtterly to forsake all the orders , customes , institutions waies and worship of antichristisme , and to practice intirely and onely , i i ibid 2099. , both for matter & † † See P. Mart , Comment , in Iudg , c , 1 ; v ; 17. 18. m 1 Cor. 10 14 , Esa: 2. 18. 20. manner whatsoever the Lord their God commandeth : Therfore in going back to make vse againe , of any of her constitutions , and divised meanes , whereby to worship God : in this men certainly foresweare themselves , and soe are guilty of fearefull perjury before the Lord .

6 It is a worship before Idols , and marke it , not accidentallie but purposely present before them : and such Idols , as haue a religious state in the worship : And to do this , is against the cleare tax of Scripture . n n Exo 20 5. 1. Cor. 10. 20. Psa. 106. 37.

And as Pareus o o comment . in Hos● . 8 p 529. saith , is a post a sie from God , great Idolatry , very scandalous in it selfe , ahorible abomination in the Lords sight , and the end of it , causeth death and wrath eternally . Rivetus , p p còment . in Hos. c. 4 , p. 151. writing of the same thing , ads thus : Howsoever such worshippers haue their minds voyd of superstition and intend to serue onely the true God , yet in truth ( saith he ) this they do not , but worship and serve the Deuill . Ainsworth q q Annot. in Exod. 20. 5. & Cartwright , r r Histo. Christ . lib. 1. pa. 140. say the same .

7. In this men cast themselves vpon temptations , s s P. Mart loc. com . clas. 2 , c. 4 p. 209. Aret , in Mat. 4 , 7 , p. 155 and provoke the Lord so to wrath , as justly he may give them up to satan & Antichrist , for to blinde them and harden their hearts .

8. A tender conscience by it wil be wounded , & afterwards tanckle inwardly as a thorne in the heele : in that it leads men to equivocation , dissimulation , reservation , and in a kinde to a deniall of Christ , & to condemn themselvs in the things which they approve of . Davids heart smote him for a little . † † See beefore in M. Gres molds cause .

9. It gives just cause of offence t t Melan. in Evang fest , mich ▪ p. 552. vnto the brethren weak & strong , and lies as a stumbling block in their way to hinder the due practice of Gods ordinances .

10. By it Idolaters are caused to shut their eyes and harden u u Cornel. a lapide in Epist. Ich. Secun p. 505. their hearts against the truth : and soe consequently held the longer and stronger in the snare of the Devill .

11. Jt is for nature and kind the sinne of the high places : For wherein did the Isralites offend that way . But because ( as Rivetus , w w quod fi bi adoratio nis loca arbitrio delegerint in Hos. 4. p. 146. saith ) of their owne accord , they made choyse of them places for divine worship . Iunius x x Annot. levit , 17 , 7. saith soe too : when they sacrificed in ALIO LOCO in any other place then the Lord had prescribed , it was offered to D●vils . I will not here dispute of the materiall place , I meane their temples of woode and stone , whether Christians in them may lawfully performe publicke worship : But this I do affirme , and will stand to it , that it is every way as evill to bring our spirituall offerings unto an Idoll●state , and there in it , by it , or with it , to present the same vnto God , as it was vnlawfull for the Iewes vnder the law , to offer in the places beefore named : some say , a a Lyran. comment . in Amo. 5 27. the former is much worse , because the same was never warrantable , whereas the other somtime was , as we haue else where noted . pag. 18. 19.

12. To conclude this practice takes away the crosse of Christ & persecution for righteousnesse . It decks an adulterer with the spoile of the spouse of Christ . It maks schisme in the Church in that men breake the order , and bounds which God hath set in it . b b Melan , in Evan dom. 4. Advent . p 94. Maks way for greater evils as apostacie from God , sliding back to great vngodlines , c c Pare . in Hos. 8. p. 592. and to bee corrupted in the substance of religion and purity of Doctrine . And what shall I say more . Jt gratifies the Iesuits in commending d d Maffeus In vita Ignat Laiola . blind obedience . and argues great presumption & pride of heart , as if man were wiser then God , & could devise either some better meanes , or some other way for his edefication , then the Lord hath prescribed e e D. Willet Comment. in 1 Sam. 15. 23.

I do not know what engine of wit and art some men haue , to elude these reasons , and to batter them so downe , as to make a safe passage through for a good conscience ; For my part I confesse such do goe bejoynd my line and measure of faith , I dare not bewise aboue that which is writen , it is enough for mee to know and beleeve , that in this point wee haue the word of God with vs and for vs .

SECT. 8.

OVr six Objection , Object. 6. as hee layes it downe for us is thus . If there be no communion at all between the Teacher and taught , what profit then commeth by such hearing .

To this his answere is . Treat . The Church Officer feedes the stocke of Christ over which he is set , as the object of his ministery . Such as come in , ( beeing not in Church vnion therewith ) heares him so doing as a stander by heares mee talke or dispute with another , &c , Here is communion onely in the effects of the truths taught . It were vsurpation in any to pertake in a Church previleidge ( which the office of ministery is ) that were not in Church state first , & so if hearing imported Church Communion none but in Church members might lawfully heare .

The Treat . answers , are much like to one that turnes himselfe many times about , but moves not out of the place . All that he saith is ( Homoeologia ) one thing often said over and over . That is a change of the state of the question , which is not about Church-communion , but whether a beleever , when hee heares a false minister in a worke of his office , doe such an action as can be proved lawfull by the word of God . Now to this ( which is the maine * * Sacra scriptura tota vera , necessaria sufficiens viatori consequen dum finem suum : nec est dubia via salutis . Harum etiam explicatio & quantum adcreden da , & quam tum ad speranda , et quantum ad operanda ex plicatur , ex diversis scripturae locis . Scotus in 1. sent. quaest. thing ) we finde nothing in the Treatise , but much paper blotted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 about questions and strifes of words , which are indeed vaine and vnprofitable , & and whereof commeth envie , strife , evill surmisings , rather then edefying which is in faith so to doe .

Jf J should say nothing to this , some would say there were some thing in it . Therefore I answere . 1. It is a false kind of resoning ( which Logicians condemne vnder the tearme , non causae vt causae ) when a thing is spoken either with limitation or without , to conclude more than the proemisses : this fault the Trea. commits here ; For he would perswade vs , that because the Church-officer & his flocke are relatives , therefore no man , not in Church vnion hath relation to his office . a a M. Const. Cnrin . Metaph. l. 2. c. 1. R. Goclen . in cōtr●v . log . p. 1 , c. 18 , Seal . c 93 , de caus . Lat. But we are not altogether such novices , but know a little how to distinguish Sophestrie from Philosophie .

Touching Relation , the same may be considered , 1. in ordinatione , 2. in applicatione . For the first , which is a Relation by order , or coniunctione , that is , relatio per se , as Logicians b b Fonsec . 5. Metaphy . c. 18 Quoest . 2 , Sect. 3. Timpl. Metap . l. 4. Phrase it ; Here now I grant in this kind of Relation no man hath relation to the office of the Teacher , that is not in Church-communion therewith . But for the second , which is , relatio imperfecta , or per accidens ; Here I affirme that in this kind : The Hearer , howbeit not in Church-estate , yet hath relation , to the Office of the Teacher , and so farr forth is the object of his Ministerie .

Aristotle c c Meta. l. 5 , c. 5. speaking of sundry wayes of Relations unto persons and things , sets downe these particulars : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . So then , to goe where unlawfull Ministers teach , observe the time , hearken to their Doctrine , shew the like outward submissive gestures and reverence that others doe , performe divine worship there with them , and among them : This is to have relation to the idol-state , both of Church and Ministerie , if the Philosopher speake truelie .

Againe , consider a relation in the parts thereof . 1. Here is subjectum , viz. Hearing . 2. Fundamentum , i. e. a false-state . 3. Terminus , viz. superstition ( but our Opposites name it edification ) 4. Relatum , to weet , the speaker . 5. Correlatum , viz. the Hearer .

And howsoever , it may be said , that in respect of Church-union the Relation , here is properlie in the two later , that is , between the Church-officer and his Flock ; notwithstanding this cannot be denyed : But for the other kind and way of Hearing , albeit it be not the Relation , yet it is in Relation , and belongs reallie to the praedicament or matter of the Relation .

I am sorry , that J am constrained to speake so often of Philosophie , but indeed I can doe no lesse , considering , that leaving the Word of God , he seeks to lead men a stray , by abstruse and ambiguous distinctions , strange and wrapping words : Now , howsoever this may puzzel the understanding of some people , as not able to apprehend the strong delusion , yet the truth is , let them be brought to the rules and grounds of true Philosophie , d d Vera Philosophia cum S. Theologia nusquam pugnat : & quod in Theologia verum est , etiam in Philosophia ; & contra . Keckerm . disput. Philos. p. 5 they are as unable to be defended by art and reason this way , as by the Seriptures . Notwithstanding I doe desire the person , whosoever he shal be that undertakes the cause here against me , to prove what he saith by divine authoritie ; For I would willingly deale with him by that booke alone , as by the book of all truth ; Nay , I require Scripture , for without it , I shall beleeve nothing , though he bring whole Cartloads of such carnall caveling devises . But to proceed .

2. To apply the hearing in question , to a stander by , that heares a man to speake occasionallie , and in a private way : Here againe , as in al the rest , he takes his scope without orbe or order ; For where things are done , ex mero alterius obsequio , by a power & institution , there can be no participation in the administrations thereof , e e M. Const. Cnirim . Metaph. l. 2. c. 1 but it is a submission to the power , whether it be true or false . By such a gloze , the Corinthians might finelie have put of Pauls reproofe : Seeing we are not in union with them , we can at their sacrifice only as standers by , and in a private way : and so have no relation to the idol . But such a shift would not serve their turne ; For whatsoever they did , it was to be determined , and reputed , according to the publick acts , and not as themselves vainelie fantised : So f f comment : in 1 Sam. c. 27 v. 4 Martyr , Chytraeus , ‡ ‡ De Eucharist . p. 216 and others .

The time was , when the Treat . thought that there was use g g Preface before religious Commun . of a distinction of Religious actions , into personall and Church-actions ; & how he understood it , he shewes afterwards : h h Treat . of private Communion , pag. 10 in private I communicate onlie with the presons and personall graces of holy men ; in publique I communicate with their Church-state and order , as also with the publick Ministery , and in , and with it with the Prelacy , whence it is .

The truth here , is never the worse nor lesse , howsoever he left it , for he that joynes in the exercise and practice of publick actions , he must necessarilie joyne himselfe ton the State , Order , Ministerie , &c. in which , and by which the same are performed .

3. In this answer he plainly confutes himselfe : For marke all Readers that have sence : In a true Church he grants , there is Communion between the Teacher and taught , and the reason which he gives for it , is , because the Flock is the object of his Ministerie .

Now , if that in this way , make a Lawfull Communion ; then by necessarie consequence , there can be no hearing in the other way , but must be an unlawfull Communion ; My reason is , because the Office of a Preist , is not an institution of any one independent bodie , but of universall Hyerarchicall state , and extendeth it selfe too , and over all manner of persons whatsoever , I say so many , as doe congregate and bend an eare thereto .

If any should object and say , but many of them , are Parish-Priests , and so resident in one place . I answer , this respects not the state of their Office at all , but onlie imports a licence that some have from their Prelate , to doe certaine services speciallie in this or that Assembly ; not that their Office of Preisthood is here by anie way limited or circumscribed , but is , ( as we said before ) universall and every where over Sea and Land : Hence then , everie hearer must needs be the object of such a Ministerie , and so communicateth therewith , if there be any weight of reason in the Treat . words . And here we have verefied the old saying .

Ipse sibi nocet is alium qui laedere quaerit .

4. Where he saith , here is communion only in the effects of the truths taught . Here is another invention of his owne head , and makes true the saying , i i Vno absurdo dato , mille sequuntur grant one absurditie , and a thousand will follow . That the effects should be dividuated from the working-cause , is against the rules of reason , k k Clement . Templ . Metaphy . l. 3 , p. 251 , 260. for common principles shew , that there is an essentiall connextion between them , and the former is to be considered for qualitie & kind , as the later is . These Canons are well known , as is the cause , so that which is caused of the doing of the thing . n n Idem qua idem , semper facit idem , Arist. l. 2. de Gen. & corrupt . c. 10 , Againe , l l Rodolph Goclen . c. 9 p. 90 as is the same , so alwayes followes the same effect .

We speake not here , of what may fall out by accident , o o Arist. 2 Topic. c. 9 , 5 , 31 , but of things considered in themselves . m m qualis causa tale causatum , And to take it thus , and say , they effects are right and Lawfull , when the instruments , and working-causes are wrong and unlawfull ; Or to say , I may communicate in the effects , and yet not with the instruments , or working-cause . It is ( caput vacuum cerebro ) as vaine a thing as ever man held .

If a Traitor or Rebel should set up one to be a Iudge , another a Major , &c. and give them commission to administer , justice publicklie ; Were it Lawfull for any of the Kings subjects to communicate in the effect of their administrations , because the same in it selfe was just ? I say no : For it were treason so to doe . And is it a lesser offence , to offend God in a matter of the like nature ?

If a man may communicate in the effects of such actions ( say good in themselves ) whose instruments and working-causes are unlawfull : I say , let this be granted , there are few Idolaters , Adulterers , Theeves , Witches , but will easilie excuse themselves . But as it is a Maxime in the civill Law , p p Fr. Connanus Comment. juris civil . l. 5 , c. 9 ; and grounded on the Law of God . q q Mart. Azpilcueta Enchyrio , c : 17 , p. 330 , cals it a breach of the 7. ● Command . That to have any thing rightlie : just and lawfull instruments must be used ; So it is in this cause here ; For howsoever God may use what instruments he will : I say , bring his purpose to passe by what secondary meanes he pleaseth , yet hath he bound vs straightlie , not to make use of any unlawfull instruments or working-meanes , ( whether it be Church , Ministerie , Worship , or any Rite or Order ) in hope thereby to have some good effects .

And here I desire our Opposites to tell me , seeing as the Treat . r r Treat . of pub . commun . p. 29. confesseth , that the Chancelour in the Consistorie , and the Preist in the Pulpit or Desk , doth administer by one and the same power : Namelie , that of the Prelate ; which , from , and by him , both the one , and other doth receive . Why a man may not as well communicate in the effects of the administrations , done by the Chancelour in his Consistorie , so they are truths : As in the effects of the truths taught by a Priest in his Pulpit or Desk ?

5. Though hearing simplie imports not Church●communion : yet all hearing in a Church-way , imports a justification and allowance of the state , both of the Church and Ministerie , in which , and by which a man is taught . And this we have alreadie so proved , that unlesse men resolve not to yeeld to the truth , which is most plaine , but to kick against the prick , and with Cavils , Glozings , and facing out of things ( like so many fovle feer to trouble the cleane water ) they must needs see , and say , that the Treat . in this point held an errour .

SECT. 9.

THe two next Objections , and his answers to them , are not worth the writing downe . If any other , doe otherwise thinke , I wish much good it may doe him , that can make any good of it . But I proceed to the 9. Objection , which he frames in this manner .

He that heares , Object. 9. appeares to have communion with the Church and Ministerie ; and all appearance of evill is to be avoyded , 1. Thes. 5. 22.

To this , Treat . thus he answereth : The Scripture is not to be understood of all that appeares evill to others out of an erronious and deceived judgement , &c. but it is meant either of the Doctrine in Proph●sie , &c. or of that which appeares evill to a right discerning eye . By this imagined exposition I might not hyre a house in a Parish , where I were not knowne : seeing thereby I appeare a Parish member .

Answ. 1. I know not in truth , what better to liken this answer , then to that Nightingale , of whom a Lacedemonian * * Plutarch . in Apothed . lacon ( when he had plucked of her sethers , and saw only a little Karkesse left ) said : Thou art a voyce , and nothing else . The truth is , the utmost that he hath here said , is a meere colour of some thing , while nothing is to be found in it . For , what was in the Objection , remaines still virtualiter , for ought he hath said to it , or against it .

2. If a man were to make a sword for his enemie , he would set as little edge upon it as could bee , for to save himselfe . The Treat . in framing this , and other Objections for us , is sure to make them blunt enought , that so they may the lesse hurt him , and profitt us .

But seeing we have the weapon now in our owne hands , wee will doe our best to sharpen it . Our argument therefore here , shal be thus laid downe .

Whatsoever is an appearance of evill , to a right discerning eye , the same ought to be avoyded .

But to heare unlawfull Ministers in Antichristian Assemblies , is an appearance of evill , to a right discerning eye .

Therefore it is a sinne to doe it .

The Proposition is proved from 1. Thessal. 5. 22. and here granted by the Treat . The Assumption is as certaine by these reasons following .

For 1. This going to the place where they goe , and hearing as they doe , is an occasion whereby a man comes into a suspition of idolatrie , and that he is of the same mind with the rest , whatsoever otherwise he pretendeth ; And thus have our Martyrs testified , as Smith a a Acts & Monu . 1876. , Bradford b b ibid. 1829. , and others . And that this is an appearance of evill , both Papists , c c Eckius Tom. 3. in fest. 5. Mich. p. 706. and Protestants ( d ) , doe acknowledge it . Peters adjoyning himselfe to the Iewes . Gal. 2. was ostentatio falsae opinion ; is ; as Pareus e e Exercit . Theol. ib. 2 , p. 111. saith , a shewing of the same errour that they did , though his private meaning was other wise : So here . B. Iewell en 1. Thes. 5. 22. p. 219 Cent. 2 , l 2 , c. 4.

2. It is an appearance of evill , when men doe that , which causeth others to feare they are unsound . But such a feare is here justly caused ; For many holy men have counted these Table-Gospellers f f Act. Monum . p. 1876 , & 1829. and said they did it , to avoyd persecution ; And reputed this action much like the Counsell in the prophane Orator . g g Servire temporibus apientis semperest habitum . Tul. in Ant. It is alwayes thought great wisedome to apply ones self unto the times . The reason wherefore Iohashaphat is blamed for his affinitie h h 2 Chro. 18. 1. with Ahab , was quia scandalum dedit subjectis quass foris non improbaret idolatriam , quam domi abrogaverit ? This is their cause , i i Pareus Exer. Theol. l. 2 p. 101. who goe to false Churches : It makes the Godlie to thinke , that their performances among them , are not perfect ; But that they have some sinester ends , both in comming to them , and going back againe to the other .

3. When idolaters see us present at their worship ; they must needs hereby be hardened and hartened in superstition ; And this is another breach of that precept in 1. Thes. 5. 22. It is observed of some k k P. Mart. Loc: Commun . Clas. 3 , c. 2 , p. 241. that Namaan might not doe any civill reverence in the House of Rimnon , least through any appearance or shew of idolatrie , some might be strengthned by it , in false worshipp .

Augustine l l Tom. 10 Hom. 6. writes very well to this purpose : Doe ye aske me ( saith hee ) how the Gentles may be won ? How they may be called to salvation ? FORSAKE THEIR MEETINGS , let goe their toyes , and then if they agree not to our truth , let them be ashamed of their fewnes . This Counsell wee shall doe well to follow ; For there is not a readier way to bring people off , from their idolatrie , then to let them alone m m Hos. 4 17. See Iunius on the place . as Gods bids us ; Keep away from all their humaine formes and fashions of Religion , and especiallie such as are round about us , and live amongst us , as Cartwright n n Reply 1. to Whitg : p. 131. excellently shewes .

4. It hath a shew of evill , in that it is a matter of active scandall , and giveth occasion to our brother , to fall into that evill . whereof it hath ashew ; to wit , that there is no just cause to separate from false Churches , but that people may remaine members thereof : And howsoever , there be not here an intention in the doer , to draw another into sinne , yet of itselfe o o Quando ipsum factum est tale , quod de sui ratione habear , quod sit inductivum ad peccandum puta cum aliquis publice facit peccatum , vell quod habet similitudinem peccati . Aquin. 2. quest. 43. Art. 1. a. 4. this is an inducement to it ; And gives another occasion to fall . And so much in effect writes Zanchy p p Explic. in 1 Thes. 5. 22. p. 419 , Tom 6. , on the place .

5. This is not without appearance of evill and scandall , because hereby , men seeke to uphold such wayes and inventions in divine worship , as the Lord of old hath ordained to destruction q q ler 51. 26 2 The. 2 8. Rev. 18. , Merdecah would not give countenance , nor reverence to one of that Nation r r Brent . Comment. in Hest . c. 3 , v 2. , whose name God had appointed to be blotted out under Heaven .

Wherfore did the Lord give so straight a charge unto Israel , to breake downe Altars s s Deu. 7 , 5. , groues high-places , &c. Vt ex eo intelligamus , because , saith Junius t t Anal. in Deu. 12 p. 71. by this we should understand , that they were not to retaine any thing that concerneth either the substance or shew of Idolatrie . Calvine u u Comment. in Esa 27 , 9. speakes the very same : ( So detestable is idolatrie before God ) Vt eius memoriam vult penitus deleri , ne posthàc ullum eius vestigium appareat . ) That he will have the very memorie of it utterly to bee abolished , least any footstept thereof should appeare afterward .

Iacob abolished out of his House not only the idols , but the ear-ings , Gen. 35. 4. because they were superstitionis insignia : Monuments of superstition ; As Calvin y y Comment. in Gen. 35 4. , Monilia Idolis consecrata : Iewels consecrated to idols ; As Pareus a a ibid. : Res idolatriae pertinentes : Things appertaining to idolatrie , as Iunius b b ibid. .

To be short , would not God have the Iewes under the law , to countenance any humaine devise , whether Ministerie c c Numb. 8 22. 24. Numb. 4. 24 , 31. & 1847 , Ministration , Altar , Sacrifice , Sacraments , either by word , d d Psa. 16. Hos. 2 , 16 , 16 , 17. writing , presence , assembling together e e Deu. 16 , 1 , 6 1 King . 12 , 32. , observing the time , comming to the place , bowing downe f f Deu. 5 , 9. Ps. 95 , 6. Hos. 13. 2. Eze. 18 , 6. Neh , 10 , 32. 37. Ex. 30 , 16. Eze. 5 , &c. , kneeling , lifting up the eyes , paying of tithes ( g ) , Offerings , Contributions , &c. And shall wee thinke that all these outward obseruances , are now out of use , and that men in such respects may publickly countenance the wayes of Antichrist . As for such , as so thinke , let them know , they are in errour and sinne ; And as the Papists have condemned Montanus for an Heretick , and yet raetine among them his vile opinions . So doe these men , embrace the lies and beastly vanities of H. N. that monstrous Monster , although in words they will disclaime all Familisme . ‡ ‡ As cats loue not the Master of the hous , but his housholds-goods : so many say they cannot abide the Pope , & yet loue his houshold stuffe to well .

Consider what I say , and the Lord give you understanding .

For the instance , which hee brings of hyring a House in a Parish , it is discrepant and impertinent , and so of no validitie . For , let Barnards g g Consirat . Eugen . l. 3. usefull Canon be observed , an liceat , an deceat , an expediat , wee shall soon see , there is no agreement between it , and the thing he applies it to .

For first , the Law of God alloweth us , to live where wicked men doe ; and to have necessarie society with them in civill things ; And thus the godly in all ages have practised . But let them shew us , where it is written , that we must goe , unto their unlawfull-Church-meetings , and there worship God with them , and among them . I aske againe , who of the Saints hath done this ? The Lord h h ler. 15. 19. sayth : Let them returne to thee , but returne not thou unto them .

2. It is seemely that we dwell among them ; and reciprocally give and take earthly helpes each of other . * * Compossessores mund non erroris . Wee must be cò partners with them in the world but not in their errours , saith Tertullian . But in Religion we may not use any of their devises , as meanes and furtherances of our edification .

Elias was carefull to repaire the Lords Altar ; For as Martyr i i In his Comment. on the place . saith , he judged it an unbefitting thing , and a great indignitie to God and his truth , to Offer Sacrifice on Baals Altar . If men in those dayes had the Zeale of that good Prophet , they would scorne and loath to make use of any thing that is Antichrists . I say it againe , were men zealous for the Lord God of Hosts , they would feare to runne to false Churches and Ministers to be edified . Is it not because there is not a God in Israel that ye goe .

3. This also is behovefull and expedient , as the Apostle k k 1 Cor. 5. 10. saith ; But the other is not so , as we have before proved . For Conclusion , wheresoever I live , my constant absence from their Church is an evident token , that I have left them ; But on the contrarie ; if I goe thither to worship , this gives them just cause to thinke that I approve of their unsanctified standing ; Whosoever therefore can make these two things hang together ? I must needs say , quid libet equolibet , of every thing hee can make any thing . But of this no more now : let us hearken to what followes .

SECT. 10.

THe next Objection is thus layd downe : None can heare without a Preacher : None can preach , except he be sent , Rom. 10. 14. 15. Therefore I cannot Lawfully heare him , that hath not a Lawfull sending .

His answer to it is : Treat . 1. That Conclusion is neither in the Text nor sound . 2. I may Lawfully heare him that hath no Lawfull calling , as I have formerly shewed . 3. The sending there intended is Gods gracious worke of providence in raysing up men , by enabling and disposing them to preach , &c. 4. If faith came by the preaching of unlawfull Ministers , it followes thereupon , that such Preachers are sent in the Apostles sence . This is the summe of his answer .

Answ. It was a cunning trick , which Themostocles was once taught by a man of Lacedemonia , that because they might not take the Tables away , wherein a Law was engraven ; He should therefore turne them up-side downe , which was as good as to take them away altogether . Howsoever , the Treat : takes not from us the Tables of holie Scriptures , wherein is written the Law of Christs Ministers , yet by a prittie devise , hee turnes them here upside downe : Which is as good as to take them quite away . J know what J speake , and will stand to it ; For if this place , Rom. 10 , 14 , 15. respects not a true outward calling , but is to be understood promiscuously of all Ministers , be their calling never so false , divilish , Antichristian . I say , if this Text be so to be interpreted , then have not the Ministers of God any more to say for the justification of their standing , then the Ministers of Satan ( I use Pauls phrase * * 2. Cor. 11. 15. ) have to say for theirs . Yea moreover , hence the base Familists a a H. N. his Exhort . to his Childr . , and such giddie-heads , who deny all outward calling to particular men and say , every one that can preach the Word , are Ministers alike ; Are justified ‡ ‡ He that justifies the false claime of a usurper ▪ condemnes the partie , whose title is right and good . in their most vile assertion . ☉ facinus horrendum , sancti viri .

But to cleare the Text from the Treat : false glosse ; And by it , to prove the truth , which we hold ; I will here lay downe this argument .

If Paul by sending , Proofe 1. Rom. 10 , 14 , 15. doth not at all intend unlawfull Ministers : Then are not unlawfll Ministers to be heard : But the first is true , therefore the second .

The proposition which needeth only to be cleared , may bee thus manifested : Such as the Apostle intended , Rom. 10. ought and may Lawfully preach : But Antichristian Ministers , neither ought nor may Lawfully preach ; Ergo , the Apostle , Rom. 10 , meanes not Antichristian Ministers .

The Major is most evident , and cannot be denyed by any that beares the face of a Christian . The Minor is cleare and certaine by these Scriptures b b Heb. 5 ; 4. Numb. 16. 5 , and 18 , 7 , 2 Chro , 26 18 Act. 14 23. ler. 23 21. . Besides granted of all , both Papists and Protestants . To wit , that it is great sinne to exercise any spirituall function or Ministerie , without a true outward calling . Of this judgment were Francis Ribera c c Comment. in Heb. 5 , 4. , Toletus d d In Joh. 10. pag: 597. , Royardus e e Feria Ter : Post . Pent. , Luther f f Comment. in Gal. c. 1 ; v. 8. Pareus g g Comment ; in Heb. 5. 4 ; , Piscator h h ibid. , Ames i i Cas. Consc. l. 4. c. 25. Slater , k k On Rom. 2. v. 3. , Cartwright l l Repl. to Whitg ; p. 54 63. , Wilson m m Comment ; on Rom. 10 ; v. 15. , Bilson n n Chur ; Gov. , & others .

2. If we may Lawfully communicate in , and with that Ministery , which the Apostle speaketh of , Rom. 10. 15. then he intends not here any unlawfull Ministerie . But the first is true ; Ergo the later is true also .

The Proposition cannot be doubted off . The Assumption wee prove by our Opposites Confession ; For they grant , it is unlawfull to communicate in , and with a false Office .

3. If the Holy Ghost doth testifie that by sending , Rom. 10. the true and Lawfull Ministers of Christ are intended : Then are not false and unlawfull Ministers intended in that place . But the first is true ; Ergo the later is true also .

The Proposition is grounded on the words of the Text : How shall they preach , except they be sent ? As it is written , how beautifull are the feet of them that preach the Gospell of Peace , and bring glad tytings of good things .

These words are taken out of Esa. 52. 7. where the Prophet ( according to the interpretation of all Learned men upon the place ) hath reference to the Ministers of Christ ; I say , to such only , whose outward calling ( whether extraordinarie or ordinarie ) was Lawfull and true .

So Cyrillus o o Comment. in Esa. 52. 7. , Dionysius p p ibid. , Areularius q q ibid. , Wigand r r ibid. , Hyperius s s On the place . , Bullingerus t t ibid. , Mollerus u u ibid ; , Zwinglius ( x ) , Marloratus y y ibid ; , Gualte a a ibid ; . Musculus b b ibid ; , Vrsinus c c ibid ; , Oecolampadius , and others .

The Assumption needs no proofe ; except a man would make some question , whether it should be day , when it is manifested to him , that it is not night .

4. If unlawfull and false Ministers are not sent from God ; But from the Devill and Antichrist ; Then doth not the Apostle in Rom. 10. 15. intend false and unlawfull Ministers ; But the antecedent is true ; Ergo , also the consequence .

The Major or antecedent is ground d d ibid ; on these Scriptures * * Ier. 14 : 14 ; Rev 9 3 ; and 13 ; 14 ; 15 ; 16 and 18 ; 15 17 ; 2 Thes. 2 ; 3 ; 4 ; 2 Chro. 11. 15 ; Rev. 16. 3. . And among other reasons layd downe by Zanchy e e Quia non mittuntur ab eo , sed a Diabolo . Explicat . Philip ; 3. 1 p. 176 ; Tom. 4. , wherefore unlawfull Ministers ●h●uld be avoyded , he gives this for one ; Because God sends them not , but the Divell . So Cartwright ‡ f f Repl ; to Whitg . p. 88 ; 204. speaking of the Hierarchy ( which comprehends all false Offices in the Kingdome of the Beast ) sayth , it came out of the Bottomlesse pitt of hell , and from the Devill . Perkins g g Expos. Serm ; mount . Mat 7 ; p. 239 ; vol. 2. , Pareus h h Comment ; in Mat. 24. 23. , Musculus i i Comment , in Mat. 7. , Latton k k Syons Plea . , the Authors of the Admonitions to the Parliament l l Admon . 1. , and others say so too .

The Assumption is as manifest ; For durst any man affirme , that Ministers not sent from God , but from Satan and Antichrist , are here meant by the Apostle .

5. Such have a promise of Gods gracious presence with them , and of his blessing on their labours and Ministerie , who are said , Rom. 10. 15. to be sent ; But unlawfull Ministers have no such promise of Gods presence with them , nor of his blessing on their labour and Ministerie . Therefore by sending Rom. 10. the Apostle intendeth not unlawfull Ministers .

He that should denye this argument , would shew more spight then wit ; For both pa●ts are as cleare as the Sunne at noon-day . For the other part of the reason , there can be no exception against it ; For seeing this place , which is the foundation of their cause , is very Sand ; the whole building ( like a tottering wall ) must needs fall to the ground .

2. For his saying ; He hath before shewed , that it is Lawfull to heare him that hath no Lawfull calling .

I answer , I cannot finde this proved any where in his Booke ; For I professe in the word of truth , I see little difference betweene his grounds for hearing in false Churches ; and the Nicolaitants reasoning for eating in idol-Temples .

For thus they would plead : m m Euseb: lib : 3 ; cap. 29 ; Ireuaen lib : 1. c. 25 Meats and Drinkes are the good Creatures of God , and may be used in a civill way Lawfully ; Now we receive them no otherwise , whatsoever ends and respects others have .

Convenient rebus nomina saepe suis .

What is the Treat . plea but the same : Hearing is a naturall action : And although he heares false Ministers , yet is not his private meaning to honour the state of the Office , as the rest doe . Thus ( Chius ad Coum ) their Doctrines are alike .

But doth not this in the meane time , shew a desperate cause , which hath not any authenticall records of the Holie Ghost . Vnder the shadow whereof , it can find any shelter to shrowd it selfe .

What , in the whole Booke of God ‡ ‡ Evangelicae & Apostolicoe literae , & veterum Prophetarum Oracula perspicuè nos instituunt , quid oporteat sapere de voluntate , & sensu Dei. Ponentes ergo contentionem ex divinitus inspiratis Oraculis queuaeram is solutionem eorum , quae proponuntur . Theod. lib. 1 ; c. 7. is there not one place of Scripture to be found ? What , nothing in the Prophets ? Nothing among all the writings of Christ and of his Apostles ? But it must bee held up ( as the Apostle speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) by the sleight n n Ephes. 4. 14 ; of men , and cunning craftines , whereby they lay in wait to deceive .

Against this kind of reasoning , I might here bring that exception which Tertullian o o De praescript : advers: haeret . did of old against his Opposites . What hath Athens to doe with Jerusalem , the Schoole of Philosophie with the Church of Christ .

Jn matters of faith men should so weigh and consider of things , as not to write what reason , but what Religion , not what Philosophers , but what the Prophets and Apostles , not what fancie thinks , but what the Spirit of God doth say . p p Sensus nostri , & enarrationes sine his testihus non habent fidem . Origen : in Hierom. Hom. 1.

Indeed , if a man list to be contentions , he may finde something to say to every thing , though little to purpose to any thing ; For what cause so bad , but some will have a colour for it .

Hath not the Stewes of Rome found Patrons p p Harding in confutat . of the Apolog. Have not some defended commones of Wives q q P. Clemens . ; yea and worse too ; Therefore with the Prophet this shall alwayes be my prayer : O let mee not wander from thy Commaundements ; Remove from mee the way of Lying ; And take not the Word of Truth out of my mouth .

3. For his Exposition , it is drawen in by the haire of the head ; And well , r r Psal. 119 10. 29. 43. it resembleth a Shipmans hose , for you may apply it to what you wil , rather then to the point in hand . There is not a Writer , I am perswaded , that ever gave such a sence of the place ; As if wisedome had been borne with him ▪ and should dye with him .

I shall not steppe out of the way , to call in here a few well deserving audience of the Learned . Famous Pareus s s Comment. in Rom. 10. 15. an interpreter one of a thousand ; upon the place writes thus : How shall they preach , except they be sent , why so ? What hinders but he may preach that is not sent ? indeed he may so to doe , but not as Gods messenger : For as no man is the Kings Ambassadour , unlesse he have his Commission : So such Preachers as will declare in Gods name his mercies and benefits , ought necessarilie to be sent by him ; For he rejecteth all them as intruders , which runne and teach without his Commission . Vnto the preaching therefore of the Word , a calling is required , &c. And though hee speake here properly of the Apostolicall Commission , which was extraordinarie . Notwithstanding it must also be understood of ordinarie Ministers : For none is a Lawfull Preacher of the Word , except God call him . Now , the Lord cals some immediately , as of old the Prophets and Apostles . Others mediately by an outward calling of the Church . So he . The very same Hyperius , Fagius , Ochinus , Tossanus , Olevianus , Grinaeus , Martyr , Rolloc , Hunnius , Rungius , Brentius , and others on the place .

Now , howsoever false Ministers are not sent of God , according to the intent of the Apostle , Rom. 10. 15. yet I confesse , he hath a speciall guidance , government and direction , both in their raysing up , comming forth , and preaching such and such truths , for the good of his elect in many places where they come .

It is said of Josephs Brethren , that out of envy they sold him to the Midianites t t Gen. 4 , 8. ; and yet the Scripture else-where saith u u Gen. 45. 3. 8. Psal. 105 17. ; God sent him into Egypt .

Now , surely the same God , which could use their mallace , by which he was sold into Egypt , for the corporall profit of his people there ; he can use as well the power x x Pareus in Comment. Gen: 45 7. p. 429. Tom. 1. of Antichrist , ( by which the Ministers of false Churches have their calling ) for the spirituall comfort and good of his chosen ones . And howsoever hee is no author of unlawfull Ministeries : Neither can it be properly said that he sends them : Yet he so wisely ordereth and disposeth of them , that he brings to passe hereby his owne purpose and will , to the prayse of the glorie of his grace , in the propagation of the Gospell , to the conversation of many .

But let it here be remembred , that their places for all this , are not the better , neither their administrations the more warrantable ; Nor any people the more justifyed to heare them , then were Iacobs Sonnes to be justifyed in what they did to their Brother , because the Lord by it did them good .

That which God doth this way , is not of any promise a a Cartwright , Hom. in Eccles. c. 3 fol 83. 84. that he hath made , but out of his superabundant grace , turning the sinnes of his people ( as the Apothecarie doth poysen to Medicines ) to their profit and good . b b Things done by unlawfull instruments , so farre as they respect the accomplishment of Gods will and pleasure , either in the safety of his Church trial of his Children &c. the Scripture attributeth them to God ; as author & doer ; and so farre forth are most holie workes ; But so farre as they respect the action done , and instruments ; they are wicked workes , and they instruments are sent from the Devill Pareus in Hos. 8. p. 529.

Lastly , that which he saith followes , it followeth not , but is ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) a Conclusion il-gathered . But I see it is an easie thing to conquer , if begging will procure one that . Put case usurpers of civill offices , should by their administrations profit some people ; Must it follow therupon , that such men are sent forth by the King ? Indeed so it must be taken , or else the Treat : exposition is neither in the Text , nor sound . But ( cadet in cursu ) he runnes in vaine , as he hath done all the way before .

Before I end this Section , I desire to aske one thing of our Opposites . Suppose there be a man whom they would heare , but know not whether ever any conversion hath followed his preaching : May they in such a case heare him or no ? If they say yes , then wherefore are the effects of false Ministers made the maine ground of hearing them ? If they say no ? Then how can they heare any ? Considering they know not certainly by whose preaching another is converted . As is the way of an Eagle in the aire , such is the way of an adulterous Woman , it is hid and cannot be seen .

SECT. 11.

THE 11. Objection is thus laid down : The sheep of Christ heare his voyce , but strangers they will not heare : Joh. 10. 3. 8. 37.

He answereth : Christ doth not there speake of the outward hearing , but of the hearking unto ; that is , as he expounds himselfe , Vers. 3. 4. 5. 14. 16. 26. 27. of the knowing and beleeving of his voyce , and following it , &c.

Answ. It is a speach of Augustine a a Ne sitis multi Magistri dissentientes a Doctrina vnici magistri Christi . in Lib. 1. detraction . : Be not many masters , dissenting from the Doctrine of Christ , our only Master .

The Counsell is good , for it is a great sinne and hurtfull vice , to be rash and adventurous upon opinions , in matters of Religion , where men are not first well informed in judgement , by true grounds of knowledge . Now truely I have not seen in so short a Tract . any man that hath more adventured to broach private conceits ‡ ‡ In Ecclesia ponitur idolum , quan do novum dogmastatuitur . Ier. in Her. 32. , then the Treat : and to single himselfe out from all writers , ancient and moderne . As if his fancies like Oracles were to be lickd up ; and his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he said , as another Pythagoras b b Diogen . Laer. in Pythag. must be rested in ; or as the Popes Traditions c c Counc . Tren . Sess. 4. dec. 1. p. 11. distinct. 19. c. sic omnes . to be received , as if Chrst spake them . But before I come to discover the nakednes of his answer , I will first from this Scripture lay downe this argument .

Such as Christ intenteth by strangers in Ioh. 10. 5. may not Lawfully be heard .

But Christ by strangers in Ioh. 10. 5. intendeth unlawfull Ministers .

Ergo unlawfull Ministers may not Lawfully be heard .

The Major is without controversie . For 1. the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is of that plainenes , as no witt of man can put by the ●orce thereof ; Properly it imports a going after another bodily d d Mat. 4. 20. 22. 25. Mar. 1. 18. Ioh. 1. 37. 38. 40. Act. 11. 18. ; as a Scholer followeth the Master to be taught .

2. It cannot be shewed * * If they can , let them . that words so generally laid downe , as these , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. ) are used any where to restraine a person only from beleeving the Doctrines of false Teachers , and allowing him in meane time freely to heare them .

3. Whereas Christ saith , they will flee from him , this must surely bee understood , animo & corpore : For otherwise with reverence be it spoken : The prohibition here were unnecessarie and vaine : Considering if true Ministers shall erre in Doctrine , wee must flie from it e e 1. Thes. 5 21 ; . So then by this Exposition , there is nothing more meant of flying from strangers , then from Christs owne Houshold servants . The which to affirme is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as the Philosopher saith f f Arist. l. 2. Elench . c. 3. , absurd & idle .

Finallie , Learned Men generallie , understand it of flying with bodie and mind . And so not to come neere the breath of unlawfull Ministers . So Augustine g g De verb. Dom. Serm. 49 , Cyrill h h Comment. in Ioh: 10. l. 8 ; Tom. 1 , Chrysostom i i Hom. 83. in Ioh. , Calvin k k Comment. in Ioh. 10. 5 ; , Hunnius l l ibid ; , Zepperus m m ibid. Tossanus n n Comment. in I. 10. 5. , Stumfius o o Postel : Alleg. Dom. 8. Post . Trinit. p. 481 , Royardus p p Hom: in seria tert. Pent. , and others .

The Minor is undeniable , and proved 3. wayes . 1. By divine * * Pro 2 , 16 & 10 , 20 , 24. & 7. 5 authoritie , which gives them often this title . 2. By their agreement and likenes : in Scripture men are named strangers in 4 respects . 1. Of their strange sect . q q Mat. 17 25. Esa. 62 8 2. Of their strange Religion . r r Mar 2 11. Ps 81. 9 ; 3. Strange Lawes . s s Iudg. 19 , 12 ; Neb. 92. And lastly , of the strange work u u Luk. 16 , 12. and service which they doe . This holds true here in the case of unlawfull Ministers ; For 1. they are not citizens with the saints and of the Houshold of God * * We speake not here of the invisible Church , but the true visible . 2. Their way and manner of serving God , is contrarie to the rules and orders , which hee hath praescribed . 3. Their Canons and Institutions are none of his , but Satans and the Bishops . 4. In their administrations ( according . to their Service-Booke ; ) they serve not Christ , but Antichrist . Mali thripes , mali ipes .

3. By the testimonie of Learned men , as Pareus a a Comment: in Hebr: 5 , v. 4. p. 211. , Polanus b b In Ezech. c 44 ; p 800. , Danaeus c c Comment. in 1 Timot. 5 , 22 , p. 343 ; , Toletus d d in Ioh. 10 , p. 597. , Luther e e Enarrat . in Evang. Tom. 5 , p. 158. , Hoffmister f f Hom. in Evang: Dom. 9 ; Post Trinit. , Guiliaudus g g Comment. in Gal. 1 , p. 241. , Poligenarus h h Dom , 7 , post pont in Evang: p. 26. , Topiar i i In Evang ; Dom. 8 ; post . Trin ; p. 73. , Anton: Gonigston k k Postil ; Oct ; post . pent ; p. 175 ; , the Rhemists l l Annot ; in Ioh: 10 ; v. 5. . All these affirme , that whosoever taketh upon him to preach without a Lawfull sending , commeth in , not by a Lawfull Election , and holy Church Ordinance , but breaketh in against Order ; By force and favour of men , & by humane Lawes . he is a stranger , a thiefe , a murderer , according to Christ , saying in Io. 10. and thus have the old Writers expounded the place . As Irenaeus m m L. 4. c. 4. , Clem : Alexand. n n L. 1. Stromat . Cyprian o o Lib. 1. Epist. 6 & 76. , Didymus p p In Ioh: 10. , Rupertus q q In Ioh. 10. , Theodorus r r ibid. , and others .

To come now to the Treat : 1. His whole answer is meerely a declyning from the state of the question .

A negatione unius disparatorum ad positionem alterius non valet argumentatio .

He reasoneth for all the World , as if one should reason thus : A man may not put in practice the bad Counsell of a murderer or thiefe ; Ergo , he may heare them . Christ ( saith he ) will not have us to beleeve and obey the unsound Doctrines of strangers ; Ergo , he doth not speake of the outward hearing of them .

Diffido oculis meis , & identidem interrogo , an legerim , an viderim s s Plin. Paneg.

I suspect my sight , I question my Copie , I aske of my selfe againe and againe , could the Treat . write so unskilfully ; For if this be not a non-sequitur , then fooles cannot speake Nonsence .

2 His distinction betweene hearing and hearking , is much like to that of the Papists t t Bellarm. de Eccles. triumph . l. 1. c. 12. , between Dulia and Latria . The Scripture forbids worshipping of angels : True say they , as Mediators , u u Hassels pro invocat . c. 19. p. 47. so it is unlawfull , otherwise not ; Christ bids us to fly from strangers , and not to heare them : yea , saith he , as to obey their Doctrine ? otherwise we may follow them , and heare them ; is not this to presume above that which is written ? Surely , if men may take such boldnes in expounding of the Scriptures , the grossest Idolater may excuse himselfe easily .

3. I grant that to heare is some time taken for beleeving , approving , following , &c But what of this ? Will it therefore follow , that Christ in Ioh. 10 , 5. doth not speake of the outward hearing of strangers .

I may safely protest his proofe here , is onely his bare opinion ‡ ‡ And so it is all along the booke . And he argues ex non concessis : From that which is not granted . I thinke no wise man will engage himselfe to defend the conclusion , which cannot be defended . * * Ne conare quid fieri non potest .

4. Where he saith , the strangers of whom Christ speaketh , were of the true Church and of Israell .

Jf his meaning be , that Christ here hath respect only to them , he is greatly deceived . For he intendeth all strangers , which in the sence of the Scriptures , either then were , or afterwards should come into the world , whether of the true Church & of Israel , or not .

It hath hitherto been a ruled case among divines , not to distinguish where the Word makes no distinction ; But the Treat : keeps seldome this Canon ; For as Lizards , who out of the open field doe runne into Bushes ; So he leaves the plaine Text , and literall sence of the Scriptures ; And turning their necks cleane about , * * I heare that some say , that these later workes of the Treat . are farre better then the first . Now , these say so , because they lead to loose walking , and therefore they like them the better . For otherwise they are much worse . Vnles to prove a thing soundly by the Word of God : is not so good as a bare and bold affirmation , makes them speake what he pleaseth ; And by this meanes neither dealeth with the Objectson , nor cause of the Lord , as is meet . * * I heare that some say , that these later workes of the Treat . are farre better then the first . Now , these say so , because they lead to loose walking , and therefore they like them the better . For otherwise they are much worse . Vnles to prove a thing soundly by the Word of God : is not so good as a bare and bold affirmation

5. Jt is a question , whether the Godly in the Iewish Church , having by hearing discovered the Scribes & Pharises to be strangers , that is , false Prophess , mought afterward heare them againe . The Treat a a See his justificat . separat . pag. 434. was once of the mind that they might not ; and gave some reasons for it b b To be lightly moved in Religion , is Childish weakenes , sayth he : divine & Mor. Observ . p. 44. It had been a happy thing , for the Church of God , if he had not shewed such a Childish weakenes . . But howsoever , the case is not easily to be determined ; considering the state of that Church & time ; Yet this is cleare to all men of sound judgment , that in the Churches now under the Gospell , false Prophets may not bee suffered ; But after due and orderly conviction , ( beeing found so , and abstinate ) they are to be rejected , and so no outward hearing of them any more . Of this judgment Camerius c c Comm. in . Apoc. c. 3. , Borrhaeus d d In Apoc. c. 3. , Tossanus e e In Mat. c. 7. , Oecolampadius f f In Mat. c. 7. , and others

Lastly , by his answere , all false Prophets may bee heard ; For , if nothing make a false Prophet , but ( as hee sayth ) unsound Doctrine ; And Christ doth not forbid the outward hearing of such ; Then what I said followes necessarilie . Now , if this were true , Lord , in what a miserable case were Gods people . But it is neither so nor so ; For the Scriptures shew the contrarie ; besides he contradicts here himselfe , and is so variable and unsetled in that thing . As it may be said of him as it was said ‡ ‡ Melanch . in Cron. of Severus : Omnia fuit & nihil fuit . Hee turneth every way , and cannot passe any way . He anglieth in all waters , and yet catcheth nothing ; he hath spent all his oyle , in making a salve for the foule sore Antichristian Preists ; and yet to say ( as the truth is ) hath left them in a worse cause * * For they need not by his writing leave their unblessed standing . For so they only preach the truths of the Gospell . They sinne not . And then what need is there to lay downe their false Office . then he found them .

SECT. 12.

THe 12. Objection followes thus : The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament warne Gods people of false Prophets ; which the Ministers of that Church are , having an unlawfull calling .

To this he thus replies : Treat . 1. They warn not to hearken to them , nor to beleeve them ; But to try them , which without hearing them , cannot be done . Not that all false Prophet are to be heard by all , that they might try them ; For that were to tempt God : But now I answer * * Not as Apollo answered the Iewes by the Scriptures Act. 18. ult. for so he could not : seeing hee writes against them . the Scriptures cited ; which speake of Prophets in the true Church , which were to be heard , till they were orderly repressed , or at least plainly discovered by their Doctrine heard to be such .

Answ. The souldiers which served Marcus Antonius , fell unawares on an Herbe * * Appian . de Bell. Parth. , the which greatly distempered their heads . To say , what my mind gives me , it was an unhappie thing , that ever the Treat . found out this Wild gourd , for it much weakned his large abilities , and caused him in this point , to be no more like the man , that he was , when he was against it ; Then an apple is like a nut . ‡ ‡ We cannot apply the saying in the Greeke Proverbe to him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Our later thoughts be wiser then our first . For here he rather striveth then teacheth ; As Ierom. confesseth of himselfe , beeing reproved by some , for writing some thing against lovinian ( as the Treat : doth against us ) by way of contention , rather then of Doctrine , Hierom , in Apolog. ad Pammachium pro libris adversus Iovinian .

Some thing he would say here , but to professe my owne ignorance , I doe not understand him .

For 1. he peremptorilie denies the whole Objection ; and so conquently affirmes that all False Prophets may be heard ; yet presently with the same breath , he unsayes what hee had sayd before ; And sayes , all false Prophets are not to be he heard by all ; And within 4 lines after , le ts both sayings fall againe , and sayth , false Prophets , beeing discovered so to be , are not to bee heard . This is so deepe and inextricable a riddle for me to unfould , that I must confesse my selfe here Davus , not Oedipus . And therefore will leave it for what it is , and come to the defence of our A●gument .

1. * * 1 Cor. 6 15. Howsoever the Treat : in the point of hearing of false Prophets , is off , and on , so that no bodie by his words can well tell , what he held ; yet , as I have before shewed , † † Pag. 81. Gods Word damnes it utterly .

And to the former reasons , these may be added , 1 , That the members of Christ , and the members of Antichrist , must not bee mingled together , but in all the points of Religious Communion , as Prayer , Prophesie , Preaching , &c. be separated and apart . For to doe otherwise , is as great indignitie offered to God , as to take the members of the bodie , and make them the members of an Harlot .

2. Jt Christ , who in those last dayes speakes evidently by his Gospell and Spirit , had judged it fit , that his Children should goe unto false Churches , he would certainlly have made known the same to them . a a Cirill observeth that such of the things done by Christ , are written , as the Writers thought to be sufficient for manners and Doctrine . In Evang. Io. lib. 12. c. 68.

3. This seemeth much to eclipse the glorie of Christs wisedome and faythfulnesse , in providing for the full and perfect instruction of his people in his owne Ministerie : That they should neverthelesse ( like an unchast spouse ) goe out from , and make use of a stranger . ‡ ‡ An honest man would bee ashamed to be seen to be familiar with an Harlot .

Moreover , for the Learned , they are against all hearing of all false Prophets , and speake downe right , as the Word of God doth in the thing ; I find in their writings , no such false and idle distinction , as the Treat : deviseth ; namely , that some false Prophets may be heard ; Others not .

As for the weaker sort a a Pag. 17. , and lesse able to discern of things that differ : they must not heare them : but the stronger and wiser may . As this is the idea of his owne head , so for ought truly I know he walkes alone in it . For , I am sure , Calvin b b Serm. against idol . . Musculus c c Comment. in Mat. 7. ver. 15. , d d In Mat 7. 15. Pareus e e Comment. in Psal. 16 , p. 52. , Zanchy f f Explicat . in Philip. 3. v. 1. p. 174 Tom. 4. , Fenner g g interp . Son : ch ; 1 ; v. 7 , 8 ; , Palladius h h Postil ; Dom. 8. Post . Trin ; p. 256 ; , the Rhemists i i Annot. in 2 Cor. 6. 14 ; and 2 Ioh. 10. , the Douay - translaters k k Notes on ps. 16 ; p. 56 ; & on 2 King : 5 ; p. 941 ; , &c. those speak otherwise ; yea , and some Elder Writers too . As Theodorus l l L. 4 ; c. 14. , Chrisostome m m In Mat. 7 , v. 15. , Eusebius n n Lib. 4 ; c. 22. , and others .

These say ( as I before said ) that no false Prophet is to be heard , by any person whatsoever .

2. For those two Scriptures , Deu. 13. 1. 1 Ioh: 4. 1. here brougth , to prove it Lawfull , to heare unlawfull Ministers : They are as fitly brought , as were the two witnesses brought against Christ , to prove him a transgressour .

For 1. the hearing , mentioned in those places , respecteth only a true Church .

Againe , it concernes no hearing of false Prophets ; but the godly are there admonished to examine the Doctrines delivered to them in a right way and order ; And if they find any by teaching to bee a false Prophet , they are to depose him , and afterwards not to heare him againe o o Populus Christianus detectis eorum erroribus fidem non habeat , aures ne praebeat , sed tanquam lupos fugiat . Par: in Mat. 7. 15. ; And thus our best Writers , interpret the places : as Frantzius Imlerus , Orinaus , Danaeus , Bugenhagius , Selneccer , Hunnius , Oecolampadius , and others .

Now , marke ( good Reader ) how this hangs together . If the Saints in a true Church may heare one that is not known , to bee a false Prophet , but afterwards by his unsound Doctrines plainly discovereth himselfe so to be ; Then may they goe unto a false Church , and heare one , whom they certainly know to be a false Prophet before they goe , &c. The expression of it is conviction enought . * * If it be a fit thing to use a Touch-stone , for triall of coyn , and that finding the same false , to refuse it ; then it is meet , to receive mony knowne to us to be counterfeit , and false . If this be absurd , so is the other too .

The Treat : goes thus foreward . 2. No mans unlawfull outward calling , makes him a false Prophet ; Nor his outward lawfull calling , a true ; But his true or false Doctrine only , makes him a true or false Prophet . A man may have a Lawfull Office of Ministerie , and yet be a false Prophet : if he teach false Doctrine ; so he may be a true Prophet , if he teach the truth , though in unlawfull and Antichristian state of Ministerie .

Answ . I never saw in my life , an errour held by a man of learning , that hath lesse brought to countenance it then this ; For whereas others commonly doe quote Scriptures ( albeit ill applyed ) & alleadge for themselves the judgments of other men . He goes not this way to worke ; But as if he had to deale only with Papists ; we must take ( as they must the Popes a a Distinc . 40 , c. 51. Papa . Decrees ) his will for a reason , and measure things by the rules of his breast .

But surely such kind of reasoning will have little waight in the conscience of any truely fearing God . For they wil be loath to leave an old faith for a new fancie .

He sayth , No mans unlawfull outward calling , makes him a false Prophet ; But J say , it doth ; And the Prophets b b Numb. 16. 2 Chro. 26. 1 King . 12. Son . 1 6. 7. Jer. 14. 14. & 23. 21 & 27. 15 , Christ c c Mat. 7. 13. , and his Apostles d d Heb. 5. 4. Rev. 2. 2. say so too . Perkins e e Exposit. on Christs serm : in the mount . Mat. 7 , v. 15. p. 239. vol. 3 is held among all the Godlie Learned or a soled and judicious Writer ; Now , what his judgement herein was , hee sheweth it thus : The first note which we must make of a false Prophet is this ; Namely , to come on his owne head ; and to preach not beeing sent ; And by this marke are false Prophets noted , Jer. 14. 14. I have not sent them , neither did J commaund them , and yet they Prophesied in my name .

And no lesse doe these words of Christ import , they come unto you , that is of themselves , without a calling from God and his Church , So he .

What he sayth , is said of Hierom f f Comment. in Mat. 7. in Ier. 14. 14. , Chrysostome g , Cyrill ‡ ‡ in Mat. 7 , Tom. 1. , Pareus * * Comment. in Mat. 7 , 15. , Luther h h Enarrat . in Evang. Dom. Oct. Post. Trin: Tom. 5 , , Pelargius i i Quaest. Evang. p. 97. , Aquinas k k In Comment: in Ier : 14 , 14. , Corvinus l l Post : in Sexages . p. 54 : , Bullinger m m Comment: in Ier : 14. 14. , Ferus n n in Io. 10 , p. 239. , Guiliaudus o o In Ephes. 1 , p. 292. , Bugenhagius p p Comment: in Jer: 14 , 14. , Toletus q q In Jo: 10 , p. 599. , Topiar r r ●●st : Dom: S , Post : Trin: p. 73. , Hoffmister s s Homil. in Evang. Dom. 9 , post : , and others .

Againe , if an unlawfull outward calling , make an unlawfull Minister ; then it makes a false Prophet ; For according to the Scriptures , it is all one thing , only expressed in sundrie tearmes .

The Treat . ‡ Divine & Mor: Observ : pag: 60. tels us that their sinne is great , and full of presumption , who shorten and strengthen the Scriptures to make way for their owne devises .

This fault he commits here himselfe ; For where the Scriptures take all for false Prophets , which are unlawfull Ministers , he ( to make way for his owne devise ) will restraine the appellation to such as erre only in Doctrine . And thus he makes good the rule , which Logicians terme de omni & de nullo , as if true in the general , but not in the particular ; As if true , that all unlawfull Ministers in the sence of the Scriptures , are false Prophets ; yet such as are unlawfull Ministers in respect of their unlawfull outward calling , are not false Prophets .

Lastly , I would know , whether Corah burning true insence , and Ieroboams Preists , offering true sacrifices , were false Prophets : if they were , ( as no rationall man will denie , ) then the other followeth consequently .

But J gesse what caused this errour in the Treat : hee found in the Scriptures , that some are false Prophets , because of their false Doctrines ; Hence hee concluded , there were no other false Prophets ; But it followes not , unlesse a man will say , he that robs a house , is a theife ; Ergo , there are no theeves , but House-Robbers . The which thing , whosoever holds , shal be Paralogizer , a deluder of his owne soule ‡ ‡ And this may serue for answer to the Pistle maker ; who inclosing up of his Epistle , crows out ; Like a Cock of the game that hath beaten all his fellowes out of place , now let them tell us , where they find in the Scripture , that men are named false Prophets , for want of a true outward calling ; Forsooth here we shew it , if you have eyes to see it , and grace to use it well . .

Touching the other point ; he speakes ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) in consideratelie , for to say , No mans outward Lawfull calling makes him a true Prophet ; For as in Wedlock a woman is truely a wife immediatelie upon the action of her Lawfull marriage ; yea though she should afterward never doe the duties of a wife ; So he is a true Ecclesiasticall Officer , incontinently upon his outward lawfull calling , Let his practises afterwards be good or bad ; The reason is , because his administrations after his calling , as prayer , preaching , &c. gives nothing to the formall beeing of it ; As I have shewed else-where t t Necessit . Separ . p. 236. .

His words following are : Treat . Balaam * * Num. 22 & 25. Iosh. 13. 21. 2 Pet 2 , 15. 16. Rev. 2 14. Num. 25. 5. 9. 10 , &c. And chap. 24. 2 3 , &c. was a false Prophet , in cursing ( in purpose ) where God would have him blesse , and in teaching Balak , to put a stumbling block before the people of Israell ; and yet a true Prophet in blessing Israel , by the spirit of Prophesie , and Word of the Lord put into his mouth .

Answ. Would men receive his sayings , as they doe gould and silver , by due triall and proofe , they should find reason enought to refuse them , & turn them back ; Now , for the falsenes of this * * Ea doceat Episcopus quae a Deo didicerit , non ex proprio corde . Let the B. teach those things , which he hath learned of God ; And not of his own heart or fancy . . My answer to it , shal bee in the words of another man u u Attersol hist. of Barak and Balaam . on Numb. 22. p. 8 11. : We know no mean between true Prophets and false , for whosoever is not a true Prophet , is a false Prophet ; and whosoever is a false Prophet , cannot be a true Prophet of God . He that is of God , is a true Prophet ; He that is of the Devill , is a false Prophet ; Neither doth the † † Marke this well , for it shewes all the Treat : answer to be caecum insomnium , a vaine dreame and nothing else . DELIVERIE AND UTTERANCE OF SOME TRUTH , MAKE HIM A TRUE PROPHET ; For then the Devill should be a true Prophet , who sometimes speaketh the truth ; albeit to a sinester end . And a little after , he concludeth thus : Balaam was a uery Witch , a Wizard , a false Prophet , a true sorcerer , famous or rather infamous , for his Devilish Magick , which he practised among the wicked idolatrous Nation , So Attersol . And manie others write so too ; As Iunius x x Annal Expli . Num. 22. p. 109. , Symson y y Exposit. on 2 Pet. 2 ; v. 16 ; p. 372. , Ferus z z Comment in Numb . 22. Canutus a a ibid. ; and before them , Origen b b ibid. , Greg Nazianzen c c ibid. , Basil d d ibid. .

Againe , as hee writes against the truth ; so against himselfe . For in Pag. 70. 71. * * A Letter sent to London , written by the Treat . he saith , to name men idolaters , adulterers , murderers , &c. because they doe some acts of idolatrie , murder , theift , &c. agrees neither with Christianitie , nor civility , but is a consequence and collection made without rule of Charitie , Hierom : distinct. 36. ca. fin . or ground of Truth . Yet see ( aliud stants , aliud sedens , ) How he is one while for the thing , another while against it . Balaam delivereth some truths : Therefore he must be a true Prophet . But if another ( cum Care Carizas ) doe reason after the same sort , hee cals it ( and that rightlie ) a consequence made without ground of truth . * * Testimonium tuum , quod aliena re leue est , hoc contra re grave , &c Thine owne testimonie , which in another case is of small weight , but this against thy selfe is of great moment . Tull.

3. Whereas Balaam in 2. Pet. 2. 16. is said to be a Prophet : the Apostle meanes a false Prophet . And the like we read in other places e e 2 Kin. 3. 13. Hos. 9. 8. See Iun. notes , on the place . , not that the name ( Prophet ) is due to them ; But given them ironicallie , that is , because they falselie assume it f f Non quibus hoc nomen vere congruebat , sed qui illud arroganter & falso sibi summebant . Bright●● . Comment. in Cant. Cant. cap. 4. fol. 78. & 16. T. W. Expos. upon the Booke of the Cantic . pag. 18. , glorie in the title , and willinglie would be so reputed and taken . For the other Scriptures in the margine , I know not for what end they were quoted , unlesse to shew the reader , in how many places he may find the word Balaam , in the Old & New Testament .

The Treat . goes on thus : He is a Prophet that speakes or declares a thing past , present or to come . And to prophesie in our sence , is nothing else but to speake to edification , exhortation and comfort . He that doth this is a true Prophet ; He that speakes the contrarie , a false .

Answ. Men pleading for errour , are driven oft times to use that kind of reasoning , which in Scholes they call fallacia ex ignorantione veri Elenchi : which is to change the state of the question , and to draw Conclusions contrarie to the true rules of the axiomes , or propositions disputed off . The Treat . is fallen into this fault : For whereas our question is onlie about hearing in Church-way , and of Church-Officers ; Hee alters quite the state of the point ; and speakes of hearing at large . As if we should question , whether Hearing simplie bee unlawfull ; and not rather hearing with certaine adjuncts : That is , in an Antichristian Church , of a false Minister , & the like .

But to come to his answer . 1. What it is to Prophesie in his sence ‡ ‡ The Trea. wrote once that no Scripture justines preaching out of a true Church ; much lesse in a false Church ; justificat : Separ : p. 73. , I know not , neither doe I inquire after . For it is sufficient for me to know what Prophesie is , and what true Prophets are , in the sence of the Scriptures .

In the Booke of God , I find true Prophets to be taken three wayes . 1. Strictly , for one , who from the inward counsell of God could foretell things to come g g Gen. 20. 17 ; Numb. 12 6 ; Deu. 18 55. . 2. For Lawfull Pastors and Teachers in the Churches of Christ h h Mat. 10. 41. 1 Thes. 5. 20 ; Rev 11 , 6 ; . 3. And more largely ; For such private members i i 1 Cor. 14 ; Rom. 12. 6. , of particular Churches , as have received the gift of the interpretation of the Scriptures , and so are able to speake to edification ; exhortation and comfort . Of no other true Prophets doe I read in all the Scripture : Seing therfore the Preists he pleads for , are not of any of these rancks k k Quae. in what ranck of Prophets unlawfull Ministers are ; And under what Scripture they are comprehended . I would haue a private Christian aske this question of some learned divine , whome hee knowes doth hold it lawfull to heare false Ministers . And it is very likely he will answer him by deepe silence . : Then needs must they be false Prophets , and so consequently not to bee heard .

2. Againe in p. 77. He sayth , No man teached the Gospell , but was a member of a true Church . For the other part of his answer ; Which is , hee that teacheth false Doctrine , is a false Prophet . Here I thinke wee must take his meaning , and leave his words ; But what he meanes J know not ; And therefore will cast it aside ; only here is a fitt place to propound a question or two . 1 Whether to hold , teach , and practice the errours and lies conteyned in their Canons , Service-Booke , Bookes of Articles , and the Ordering of Bb. Preists and Deacons , doe make a false Prophet . 2. Whether to hide from the people the knowledge of all the main truths , which concerne the outward regiment of Christs visible Church , make a false Prophet . 3. Whether it bee Lawfull to heare any false Prophet , known so to be l l There is one question more , viz. whether the Lords Lawfull Preists , which served at the Altar in Ierusalem , mought not as well urge their people to heare Ieroboams Preist at Dun and Bethel ; As the Ministers now under the Gospell , to perswade men , to heare in false Churches . If it bee not all one , shew the difference . . The simple beleeveth every word m m Pro. 14. 15. : But the prudent man looketh well to his going .

There is nothing more in this answer , but a little girding at some mens persons , and at their exercise of Prophesie ; to which J will say no more , but in the Poets n n Iuvenal . Satyr. 2. words : Dat veniam Corvis vexat Censura Columbas .

SECT. 13.

THE 13. Objection is laid downe in this manner : The Lords forbids Iudah going to Gilgal , or to Bethel . Hos. 4. 15. 16.

Treat : The meaning is plaine , & the words expresse , that they were not to goe thither to offend and play the Harlot , in joyning to idols , Ver. 15. 16. This I grant ‡ ‡ Nos qui Christiano nomine gaudemus dicemus nos abjicere Deos alienos , & verum colere , cum pars idola defendat , adoret , colat , breviter divinis honoribus pro sequatur . Lavar . in Josh. c. 24 Hom. 71. p fol. 81. is to be done in no place . But deny any such thing to be done in the hearing by mee pleaded for ; The Scriptures every where forbid the going , or comming to such places , or persons , as in , by , or with them some evill is done , to wit , for the doing of any thing evill , or unlawfull in , or with them . This is all a primo ad ultimum .

Answ . When Children find any hard words in their Lesson ; They wil be sure to passe them quickly over ; Hoping thereby to save themselves . I must needs say , the Treat . met here with a strong argument ; And therefore it is no wonder , though he shew us a Scholers tricke : To wit , leave that speedilie , the which hee knew not how to answer * * See the like answer to our 1. Object . It is Antonies precept in Tullie , if men be troubled about a hard question , to say nothing to it . De Orat. l. 2. . If the Reader doe not see the weaknes of it ( to say the best of it ) I will set before him a glasse to vew it in .

For 1. He makes himselfe here an Opposite to science . 2. To Conscience . 3. To the truth ; And lastly , to himselfe . And first of the first : They were nor ( sayth he ) to goe thither to offend . J professe in all good conscience , my desire is not to pervert his meaning , but to understand it ; But how to understand it , J know not ; For his speach is much like the answer , which Pythius the Preist gave to Pyrrhus the King Epire. a a Cicer. de divin .

Ajo te Ae●cida Romanos vincere posse . An answer so dubious & discrepant , as it cannot be gathered from it , whether He , or the Romanes should overcome . The Treat : answer is of the like ambiguitie and darknes ; It is an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as the Philosopher b b Arist. 1 Seph . 4. , speakes ; For you cannot directly say , whether hee intends that Iudah might Law●ully heare Ieroboams Preists at Dan and Bethell , or not . You may take it either way , or no way ; For it is ( utroque nutans sententia ) a speach like an Echo , and will say whatsoever you will say before it .

But it is no marvaile , Hoc neque prophetae predicaverunt , neque Dominus docuit neque Apostoli tradiderunt . Iren. l. 1. c. 1. though hee leaves the matter thus in a doubtfull sence . For I beleeve what Augustine c c Liberius improbare non audio . ad Ian. Epist. 119. sayth of himselfe , was here true in the Treat : hee durst not freely speake his judgement .

But in the meane time , this sheweth a wretched cause ; For whosoever sees his cause to be good , hee will search and weigh rather what should be said plainly and to the full : then what may be said darkly and coulorable , and so to put it off with a shift .

2. If he meant to say any thing , his meaning then must needes be : that it was lawfull for Judah to heare the Doctrines of the Law Preached at Dan and Bethell by Ieroboams Preists . The which exposition is an unsufferable perverting of the Text * * Sua si docere velint , nolite audire , nolite facire ; certe enim tales sua quaerunt , non quae Iesu Christi . August . in Iohan : Tract. 46. , & leads unto great impietie ; For to distinguish things in such a sort , is for all the World , as if one should say , the Law of God forbids adulterie ; True , but how ? To satisfy lust , not to begit Children , as Sejanus did d d Tacit. Annal: Lib. 4. .

Againe , the Law of God forbids perjurie , as how ? As it tends to the shedding of innocent blood , but not to accommodate a freind , as Cicero merrily speakes of Clunius e e Pro Q. Rassio Comaed . . I could multiplie instances this way of the same nature with his exposition : The Lord sayth expresly , goe not to Gilgal . But how say our Opposites ; As to Offer Sacrifices ; but not to goe thither to heare the Doctrines of the Law preached by the Preists of Jeroboam . Is not this horrible presumption to contradict * * Sua si docere velint , nolite audire , nolite facire ; certe enim tales sua quaerunt , non quae Iesu Christi . August . in Iohan : Tract. 46. the plaine Word of God ?

For to establish their owne inventions : What Heresie held by any Heretick , may not by such bold distinctions be justified . I may say as a Learned man sayth f f Verba sine crimimine sunt , sensus in crimine . : The words are without fault , the sence is in fault .

Of this corrupt handeling of the Scriptures , Bucer g g Impium esse , verba Christi ultra propositum materiam extrahere . de regno Christi , l. 2. c. 29. p. 149. writes judiciously , Hilari : de Trinit: lib. 2. and shewes what a wicked thing it is , to applie the Word of God , beyond the proposed matter . If it be an unjust thing ( saith he ) to streatch the Doctrines and answers of a wise and pruaent man , beyond the matter and question unto which they are given ; But specially to apply them to the thing which he intendeth not , neither doth it agree withall ; Then much more is it , a vile thing to abuse the Doctrines and precepts of Christ in such a manner , &c.

Of such as doe so , that fitly may be said , what Hierom h h Rhetius eloquens quidem est , sed ineptus interpres . Hieren . ad Marcellam : saith of one Rheticius , they may be wise men , but are foolish interpreters .

3. If the Prophets had so meant ( as the Treat : closely insinuates , but durst not , it seemes speake it out , ) viz. that the Hearing of the Word preached by Ieroboams Preists at Bethell , Dan and G●lgal , ( able to open and applie the Doctrines of fayth by that Church professed ) both Lawfull , and in cases necessarie for all , &c. They could easily have expressed it i i We ought not so much , as to know the things , which the Booke of the Law conteyneth not . Hilai : in Psal. 132. The Scripture denyeth it what it noteth not . Tertull. Lib , de Monog . ; For they were filled with Spirit of God in all wisedome and Spirituall understanding ; But the truth is , in plaine expressions , they speake the contrarie . And unlesse mens mindes be overcast in like sort , as were the eyes of Elymas , they cannot but see it .

But to presse them downe with authority , for the preventing of errour in the simple , and for caveling in such as desire to contend . We will here set downe the judgement of the most Learned , touching this thing . The Prophet ( saith Zanchy k k Comment. in Hos: 4 , 15. p. 82. ) sayth not Sacrifice not at Bethel and Gilgal , but simply and plainly com ye not thither , noting that they were interdicted not onely from sacrificing there ; BVT JNDEED THAT THEY SHOVLD NOT THITHER COME AT ALL. Rivetus l l In Hos. 4. p. 156. understands it of such a keeping away : As that they might not be bodily present at any spirituall exercise there performed . So Calvin m m Praelect. in Hos. 4. p. 52. Pareus n n In Hos. 4. v. 14. p. 504. Tom. 4. , Oecolampadius o o In Esa. 2. l. 1. fol. 20. , Lyra p p In Amo. 4. 4. , Brocardus q q In Levit. 10. pag. 69. , Luther r r In Amo. 4. , Brentius s s In Amo. 4. , Fabritius t t t t t In Hos. 4. , Mollerus u u In Hos. 4. , Osorius x x In Hos. 4. , Shaddaeus y y In Amo. 4. , Sedelius a a In Amo. 4. , Cramerus b b In Hos. 4. 15. , and others .

Moreover , of the same judgement are the Iew Rabbines , as Mercer c c ibid: noteth . He that desires to see more , let him read what the Lovanists d d Annot. in August . Brevic. Collat. cum Donatist : Collat. dici . 3. c. 9. And Annot. in August : Post : Collation : ad Donatist : c. 20. , have written about it .

4. Jf we may not come , to such places , or persons , for the doing of any evill and unlawfull thing with them , then I conclude from his owne mouth , that the practice he pleads for , is sinfull ; And so I have alreadie manifested unto all men , except some men will contend without cause , and against reason , out of a Spirit of contention and contradiction .

SECT. 14.

OUR 14. Objection is thus framed : They that eat of the Sacrifice , partake of the Altar , 1 Cor. 10. 18. So they that receive the Word , from an unlawfull Officer , partake with his Office .

To which he thus answereth : Treat . I deny the consequence ‡ ‡ A Child can say so much , but hee had need be no Child that shall prove so much : . The Office is not to the Word , as the Altar is to the Sacrifice . The Altar makes the thing to be offered actually to become a sacrifice , which it was not before , save only in destination ; as Christ plainly teacheth : saying the Altar sanctifieth the gift . But so doth not the Office make that to become the Word of God , which was not so actually before .

There goes a story among Scholers of AEsops deceiving Mercurie : He having promised him one part of his Nutts , keeps all the meat to himselfe , and delivers the shels to the other . As the Treat : gives us here but halfe of the Argument , so that halfe , is only the barke or outside . For had he laid it downe ( unum ad unum ) according to the scope of the place , and as we apply it , thus it should have been .

Such as did eat of the sacrificed flesh , taken off from the Altar under the Law , approved of the Iewish worship a a Par. Comment. in 1 Cor. 10. ver. 15 18 , and shewed themselves to be of the same Religion b b Calv. in 1 Cor. 10. 18. , Againe , they which went unto the idol-Temples , and did there eate of the Heathen Sacrifices , joyned themselves by this outward act to that society and superstition , So by just consequence , whosoever goeth unto false Churches , to eate spiritually of any of the Sacrifices there administred , in and by an Antichristian state of Ministerie ; Hee justifieth c c Guiliad . Comment. in 1 Cor. 10 , 18. by his going , their idolatrous Church , Ministerie worship , &c. and makes himselfe a will-worshipper with the rest ; according to Pauls Doctrine in the former Examples . * * See the Rhemist . on the place .

How they will chop this argument small , that they may the easier swallow it , I know not ? But this I am sure off ; they cannot presse it downe with divine authoritie d d Auserantur de medio , quae adversus nes invicem , non ex divinis Canonicis libris , sed aliunde recitamus . August . de unita : Eccles. cont . Petilian . c. 3. . But either they must verba dare , as they speake : and use technas peiseis , uncunning proofs : Or acknowledge it to be a truth , as in truth it is .

To come to his answer , which is like a fagot of thornes , full of prickles , bound up with straw , the which by the fyre of Gods Word is quickly burned . 1. He applies things here ( aschematiston ) very ilfavoredlie . The Office ( saith hee ) doth not make that to become the Word of God , which was not so actually before . True ; Neither did the Altar make the thing to be offered , to become that which it was not so actually before ; For we know , before it was laid upon the Altar , it was flesh , but afterwards it became a Sacrifice . The same is true concerning the Word ; For howsoever the Office makes it not to become the word of God : ( as neither did the Altar make the thing to be offered to become flesh ) yet by the Office it is made a Church-sacrifice , the which it was not so before . e e Daverba & decive nerves Persius Sat: 4.

And here I desire the Reader to observe , how disorderly he sets things downe . The Altar makes the thing to be Offered , actuallie to become a sacrifice , which it was not before .

But so doth not the Office make that to become the Word of God , which was not so actually before .

Inguinis & Capitis , quae sint discrimina nescit .

What Child may not see the absurditie of it ? For all that hee could conclude from the first assertion ; unlesse he would conclude nothing ; was either thus : The Office makes the Word of God to become a Church-sacrifice , which it was not before , but in destination ; Or thus : The Office makes not the Word of God to become a Church sacrifice , for it was so before This latter howsoever it be voyd of truth , yet there would have been some sence in it . ‡ ‡ Doe not thinke that the Treat . wrote this Elenchum sophisticum ignorantly , but rather fore-saw what inconvenience would fol low , if he should let the argument runn out orderly and proportionably . I beleeve hee saw well enought , should he grant , that the Office makes the word to become a Ministeriall Church-Sacrifice ; This Scripture would stand in force against the thing they pleaded for .

2. For the place of Scripture , Mat. 23. 19. the meaning is : As they had erected an Altar , and dedicated it to the Lord , according to his appointment , whereon to offer Sacrifices ; So the things offered to God on it , and by it , were after a sort sanctified by the Altar ( f ) ; That is , it made them publick Church-services , acceptable to the Lord . And the same is true of Christs Ministerie ; As it is a divine institution , given unto the Church , for the performance of Holy things , so it sanctifyeth the things , that is , makes them to become Lawfull Ministerial Church-Ordinances , without which they were not so ; Neither could they be so reputed .

And this may be as applied also to a false Ministerie ; For as it is an institution of Satan and Antichrist , to have their wicked devises administred ; So it defiles every administration , done in it , and by it ; And for the administrations , they are all false , unlawfull , Antichristian Church-actions , † Quamvis Dei solius sit sanctificare ; tamen aliquo modo quae principalius Deo sunt-consecrata , ad se pertinentia , sanctificare dicuntur . Muscul . in Evang. Mat. c. 23 p. 477. Tom. 3. offered to the Devill g g Hoc est judicium Dei de quavis cultu & de de quavis Religione , quem non secundum verbum eius exercetur : Non Deo sed demonijs prestatur . Pare . Com. in 1 Cor. 10. 20. Fingere enim falsum cultum , est falsum Deum fingere ; quia tunc fingitur falsa Dei voluntas , & sic falsus Deus . Par. in 1. Cor. 10. 7. , and otherwise to be taken .

3. Where he saith , the eating of the Sacrifices in Israell became their Sacraments , and the Heathen sacrifices were their Sacraments : Howsoever , were this so , it neither hurts us , nor helpes him . Yet I cannot see how it can be so applyed . For 1. Circumcision and the passeover were Israels Sacraments ; And therefore by Altar , their whole Religion and Worship is understood . As Zanchy h h Altare pro tota religione & cultu accipitur . praecept . 3 p. 534. truely observeth .

Againe , the Apostle prohibiteth not only the eating of the Heathen Sacraments , but all going to their Temples , to doe any thing there , with them , or among them ; Yea , though it were not with any intent to performe a Religious Action . So i i Respicit congressus &c. Comment. in Psul. 16. p●g. 53. Rivetus .

4. As meats considered in themselves , may Lawfully be eaten any where , if it be done without the offence of the weake , as Paul Teacheth at large , 1 Cor. 10 25 29. Yet if meats bee considered as they are offered to idols , and eaten in the Idol●Temples in the honour of idols , * * See his justificat . of sep. 94. they be unlawfull . The like may be said of the word , if we consider it in it selfe , the same may be preached Lawfully any where ; But if the Word be considered , as Antichrist useth it , Distingue tempora & locus & reconciliabis scripturas . or rather abuseth it , in setting up a false Church and Ministerie , to teach it in , and by ; In this respect the Word is not Lawfully preached ; How oever here againe he insinuateth the contrarie . Distinguish ( saith Augustine k ) times and places , and thou shalt reconcile the Scriptures .

Lastly , J desire the Reader to make it well : Howsoever the Treat . hath said something , yet nothing at all to the Objection : For he should have proved , that howsoever , they who did eate of the sacrificed Beasts of the Altar , justified the Altar : And they which went to idol-Temples , honoured the idoll ; Yet now wee may Lawfullie take and eate the spirituall sacrifices , which come off from the Altar of false Churches , and false Ministeries ; And yet not justifie the Altar , nor give any honour or consent thereto ; No nor any shew or appearance thereof † † Quae : Whether such as pretend to ground their practice of hearing on this Treatise : doe not shew either lightnes in not weighing what is said : Or ignorance in not discerning what they read : or wilfulnes , in doing a thing , for some by respect , pretending this Booke as a Cloak for it . Hic labor hoc opus est .

But it may be , we shall heare hereafter of some other , that will say something to it ; In the meane time we will wait for it , and proceed to the rest .

SECT. 15.

THE 15. Objection we have thus framed : The places called Temples and Churches , having been built for idolatry , should be abolished ; And therefore are not to bee frequented , specially beeing accounted and made holy place , Deu. 12. 1.

Ans. What is said of some mens Sermons , I may say of the Treat : answer here , the matter had been much better , if he had named no Text ; For he toucheth not the Objection at all ; which is concerning Antichristian Temples , in the unlawful use of them , but of the Lawfull Worship of God , in those places , from whence the idols and idolatries are removed . Now , howsoever J purpose not to speake of those materiall places , in regard our exception lies rather against their false Constitution , not of stones , but of people , yet this I doe affirme , that as the idol-Temple in the use of Antichrists idolatrous worship , is a part of his false worship a a Page● . Arrow . ag . separat . pag. 173. : So they doe pollute in the use of such worships , as are practised in them . And that they should be destroyed , having been corrupted with idolatrie , there are many Examples for it . b b Guagninus de Lituania Casstod . lib. 3. hist. Tripart . l. 9. Sozom . l. 5. Theodorit . l. 3. & l. 5 c. 20. 37. Euseb. de vit. Const. lib. 5. c. 53 Socrat. l. 1 c. 14. August . de Civ . Dei , l. 18. c. 54. Cranz . Saxon. c. 9. & 12. Helmoldus in Sclaevorum Chron. 11. Cent. l. 2. c. 9. Cramer l. 15.

But to let these things passe , if we may have leave to put down our owne argument , it shal be thus .

If the false Churches of whom we dispute c c They hold as we doe , that the Church , Ministerie , Worship , and Government of the Church of England , is Antichristian and false , so that our difference is not , whether these things are so , but beeing granted on both sides , they are so : The question is , whether we may Lawfully heare there or no. be that spirituall Babilon , mentioned in Revel. 18. 4. Then it is not Lawfull for Gods people to goe unto them , to performe any spirituall or Religious action ; and so consequently not to heare there .

But the first is true ; Ergo the later is true also .

The Proposition needs no proofe , because our Opposites and we herein are of opinion alike .

The Assumption is manifest by these reason . 1. The words in the Text prove it plainely : Come out of her my people ; That is , remove your selves from all false Assemblies , covenant together to walke in all the wayes of God , serve the Lord among your selves in ●pirit and truth , and returne not from whence you are come . But repent rather that ye have suffered your consciences to be wrought upon by any unlawfull Offices . And thus doe they Learned interpret the place ; namely , of such a comming out , as that we may not be bodily present at any of their worship d d Artopaeus in Rev. 18. p. 198. Place . Illyric . in Rev. 18 4. : Ne quidem spectatum , saith Pare●s e e Comment. in Hos. 4. pag. 506. Tom. 1. no not so much as to behold it . Bullinger f f In Apocal. cap. 18. Concio 77. p. 241. in his Exposition saith , we must flie from their Temples , and not enter afterwards into them to doe any spirituall worship . So Rupertus , Theophanes , Lambertus , Winckelmanus , Wirth , Camerarius Ribera , Leoninus , Conradus Brocardus , Capella , & others .

2. Seeing a devised Constitution , is an idol , all that comes from it , is taunted ‡ ‡ 2 Cor 6. 1. Ioh. 5. 21 Zach. 11. 17. with the idolatrie of that Constitution ; and therefore not to be touched , because they are uncleane things : A false Church-state , is rightly likened g g Botsac . Promp : Allegor . c. 21. de Minisi . , to the Leprosie spread in the wals of the houses of the Lepers , because of the pollution * * It is like that filthy Bird , which carries this motto , contactu omnia ●oedat . , which it causeth to persons and things . Take for instance a city or towne ; If the civill state or corporation , which they have , bee usurped , devised , or derived from a false power , all their publick administrations are unlawfull , and every one partaking thereof , offendeth ; So all administrations done in a false Church , ( whether prayer , preaching Sacraments , Censures , &c. ) are uncleane actions , and doe defile every receiver ; I say , because of the idol-state , which is devised out of mans braine , and used as a meanes to serve God in it and by it .

As poyson is caried from the fountaine to the Cesterne , and from the root to the branches ; So from a false Constitution , ( as from a poysened fountaine and roote , ) a spirituall poyson is carried and conveyed into every one of her administrations . Nature teacheth this , where generation is betwixt 〈◊〉 of one kind , the like doth ever bring forth the like ; Neither can a Sheepe bring sorth a Wolfe , nor a Wolfe a Sheepe ▪ but one nature is ever common to the breeders and to the brood .

This holds true in the cause of a spirituall Harlot , as she is a viperous body , so she begitts a brood of vipers : I say all the ordinances , done after the invention and will of Antichrist , can no other wise be judged ●hen a brood common to the nature of the breeders , that is the Devill and the Whore of Rome , the Father & Mother that begat them .

3. Because the Lord hath not promised to them , his presence and acceptance ; what the Lord may accept , or will , we dispute not : Only this I say , whoseoever heares in a false Church , cannot by any promise that he hath in the Word of God , exspect Gods blessing on that which he doth ; The reason is , because a true constitution of a Church , that is , where men are gathered together , according to the Gospell of Christ , is that only Lawfull Religious societie , or Communlon of Saints , wherein God wil be honoured , whereby he wil be served , and whereto he hath promised his presence and acceptance ; So then , howsoever we are not bound unto hearing in a true Church , necessitate medij , as if Gods grace were tyed to the meanes this way ; Yet as they say in Schooles , necessitate praecepti , if we consider Gods Commaundement , so wee are bound to Church hearing , only in a true Church , and in no other Church can we exspect Gods presence , promise and acceptance .

4. Lots flying from Sodome , and Israels departure out of Egypt and Babilon , shadowed out h h Bulling . in Apocal. 18. Con. 78. Ciril in Esa. c. 48. l. 5. Tom. Zwinplius Comment. in ler. c. 51. Chytraeus in Apoc. c. 18. our comming out from Antichristian Assemblies ; Now they came off wholie and fullie ; And were not one while out , and another while in againe . But made an intyre and constant separation .

That this may accord with the thing tipified ; we must come quite away from Sodome , Egypt , and Babilon spirituall . Not come neere the doore of the Harlots i i Pro. 5. 2. 8 , and Chap. 7. 24. 25. house , nor eate of her Offerings ; as the wise man speaketh . We must not be one part of the day before the Lord in Sion , and the other part at Dan & Bethell , worshipping before the Calves . As the Manner of some is k k Componistae ergo , & temperatura vel ferruminatio eorum Deo ita disciplent , ut fasti lium ei ingenerant , abominationi sint , & abdicet eos . Bulling : Com: in Apocal. c. 3. Con. 20. pag. 57. I speake it to their shame .

5 In hearing there , men doe countenance , that false-state : As he that receives stolen goods of a theife justifies him : so l l Pro. 17 15. &c. 6. It is a strong presumption they are not Gods people : m m Rev. 18. 4. speciallie when they stay in Babilon after many warnings to come out . 7. Such as will not leave Babilons sinnes , must looke for her plagues and judgements . n n Forbes in Rev. 14 p. 135

And so sayth the Treat . * * Mànumiss : to a Manu : pag. 4. The authority of Ministers in their Parochiall Parishes , may not be by Gods people partaken with , ( no not in actions otherwise Lawfull ) under the paines of Babilons plagues .

Before I end this Section , it will not be amisse , to examine what our Opposites doe say , beeing pressed with the authoritie of this Scripture .

Their plea is that which the Treat . ‡ ‡ Pag. 3. & 64. hath taught them , viz : So they sequester and withdraw themselves from all Communion . with the Hierarchicall Order of Church Government and Ministerie , there established , they may Lawfully heare , and are come out of Babilon so farre as the Lord requireth .

Answ . 1. They have no reason for all this they say , nor authoritie but their owne .

2. What they say , is a grosse contradiction , and meere nonsence ; For it is , for all the World , as if one should say . Be thou joyned to an Harlot , and be not joyned ; Be ye partakers of other mens sinnes , and be not ; Have no fellowship with the unfruitfull workes of darknes , and yet have . Magna inter molles concordia ; This and theirs is all one : Withdraw your selves from the Hisrarchicall Order and Ministerie , and yet heare : As if men in hearing are not so farre from withdrawing from the Hierarchical Order & Ministerie , that by the verse action they joyn themselvs to it , are partakers of it , and have fellowship with it ; As I have before shewed and proved . p p What deceiver ever taught men to commit sinne in plaine expression , that it was so ; But rather under termes of the contrarie perswaded them to it . Nicolaitas contagia , cultus idolorum , scortationes , adulteria & omnes libidines , pro adiophois habuisse . Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 29 Irenaen . l ● ▪ c. 27.

3. Such distinctions as these are the wiles of Iesuits , ( q ) D. Rayn . de idolat . p. 348. as some Learned Men have well observed . Yea the truth is , out of this quiver all Hereticks draw their arrowes . For let a Familist bee pressed with such Scriptures as these . Fly idolatrie , keepe your selves from idols , &c. How will he answer ? By a distinction r r To uphold the Heresies of H. N. this is one speciall & principall practice , that the historie & native sence of the Word of God is altogether neglected of him , and in steed therof , is entertained an allegoricall and bastar lie construction , foolish & fond distinctions , which thing utterly defaceth the certainty of the sacred Scripture , & maketh no other thing of it , than a nose wax . J. knew stub against the heresies of H. N. p. 61 , the bodie is not meant , but the mind only ; When we alleadge to our Opposites , Rev. 18. 4. Come out of her my people , what is their answer ? by the same distinction , to come out from hearing it is not meant , but this and that , and I know not what . Behold here how they reason alike , and resemble those two , of whom the Poet speaketh : Alter in alterius jactantes lumina vultus . One looking asit were babies in anothers eyes .

4. This is to gratifie the errour of Montanus † † Discipuli Montani dicunt paracletum plura in Montano dixisse , quam Christum in Evangelio protulisse : Nec tantum plura , sed etiam meliora atque majora . Epipha : lib. 1. Haere . 27. Tentull : de praescript . , who professed , that he knew more then the Apostles . Now , I am sure John the Disciple whom Iesus loved , knew nothing of this distinction ; to weet , how to come out of Babilon , in one respect , and yet in another to stay there still ; For , had he known it , surely he would have taught it ; specially it beeing such a weaghtie point , as ( saith the Treat : ) is both Lawfull , and upon occasion necessarie for all of all Sects and sorts of Christians .

Were our Opposites of that Companie , who are called by the name of Apostles , I should thinke that they thought themselves to be some new Apostles indeed .

5. When the words of a Text are plaine , agree with the circumstances of the place , with the Analogie of sayth , and with other Scriptures ; For men then , to leave the native sence , and to force a sence contrarie to that which the letter expresseth , It is ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to wrest the Scriptures , and not to expound them by the true rules and Canons of Divinitie . s s 2 Pet. 3. 6. So Augustine t t Lib. 2. de Doct. Christ . c. 31. , Hieron . u u Comment. in Am. 4. , Keckerman x x Rhet. Eccles. l. 1. , Perkins y y Prophetia c , 2. de modis inter pretendi . , & others .

But so doe these men , For whereas this Scripture speakes of leaving all the administrations in false Churches . And this well agrees with the scope and drift of the place , with the rules of faith , and with other Scriptures ; Notwithstanding against the literall sence , they peremptorie say , that men must not leave all the administrations in false Churches ; But heare there Antichristian Ministers ; how be it , this is no more expressed , then their Sacraments , or Service-Booke . ‡ ‡ Quaer . Why a Familist using the libertie & boldnes that these men doe , may not say , and prove it as well , that there is not comming out of the outward man here meant at all

6. As their distinction is untrue , so it is also new ; For we find no such Doctrine in other mens writings ; whether Calvinists a a Par. in Rev. 18. 4 , Lutherans b b Brent . in Exeges . Ioh. 4. , Papists c c Doway Transl . in Psal. 26. p. 56. . Besides the martyrs d d Pag. 93 , first and last would not receive it , least to save their lives , they should lose their soules . It was the answer of Fredrick the Duke of Saxonie . Who beeing prisoner to Charles 5. was promised releasement & restitution of dignitie , if he would goe to the false Church ; Summum in terris Dominum agnosco Caesarem : in Coelis Deum . I am ready to yeeld to the Emperour in civill accommodations ; But in Heavenly things I acknowledge but one Master . Christ is more welcome to me in bonds , then Caesars honour without Christ . The like did the Prince of Condee ; yea the zeale of Q : Marie may condemn our Opposites ; For she would not heare B : Ridlies Sermon , because she thought he was no Lawfull Minister .

I remember what Diogenes f f At malo inquit sal Athinis lingere , quam Craternm frui magnifice instructa mensa . Diog. Laret . invit . Diog. lib. 6 c. 2. said to Craterus , one of Alexanders cheife Captaines , who beeing a man of great wealth , invited the Philosopher , to abide with him , promising him great entertaynment ; e e Sleid. But he replyed that he had rather lick salt in Athens , then fare delicately with Craterus . Preferring libertie , albeit accompanied with povertie , before the delicates of rich men , where freedome is diminished . This we may apply to all upright men , they will more esteeme of the meanes , which they finde in Gods way , and which they may enjoy with libertie of conscience : ( how little soever it be , and what afflictions soever accompanie it . ) Then the the large entertainment , which false Ministers promise them in the wayes of Antichrist , unto the enslaving of their consciences , and losing of that pretious libertie , which Christ hath purchased for them with his owne blood .

SECT. 16.

OUR last Objection is laid downe thus : Seeing whatsoever is not of faith is sinne , what word of God , and so of faith , is there for this practise .

To which he thus replies : Treat . Every Scripture that either commaunds the hearing of Gods Word , Mat. 7 , 24. Luk. 11 , 28. or promiseth a blessing to them that heare and keepe it ; Or that commaunds me to edifie and build up my selfe : To obey the Magistrate ; or to follow after peace ; 1 Pet. 2 , 5 Or to prevent offences ; warrants , and in cases enjoyns this practice . Tit. 3 , 1 , Heb. 12 , 14.

Answ. He that can make anything of this answer , I will say of him , as they say of the Pope ‡ ‡ Papa ex nihilo potest facere aliquid . Extra . de Translatione Episcopi quanto in Gloss. Ext. de concess : praebendae proposuit : in Gloss : ; Of nothing he can make something . For indeed it is as frothy & unsoled a speach , as can be expressed . And if it carrie any force with it , 1 Cor. 10 , 32. the frame must stand thus : If the Scriptures commaund the hearing of Gods Word , promise them a blessing which keepe it ; Commaund men to obey the Magistrate ; follow after peace , prevent offences ; Then they warrant and enjoyne them to heare unlawfull Ministers in false Churches . ( In eodem haesitat luto . ) Jt is either thus , or it is nothing .

He reasoneth here like one whom I well knew , who having accused another , alleadged 2. or 3. Sentences of Scriptures , for to prove his chardge ; Now all men know , that the Scriptures could not testifie and witnes , that the person had so sayd or done ; But only condemned such a fact , if it had been proved .

To as good purpose is this answer ; He saith the Word of God commaunds us to edifie our selves , obey the Magistrate , follow after peace , &c. And hence verie handsomely concludeth , that the Word warrants this practice . He might have cited all the precepts in the old and new Testament , and from everie one of them , as wisely have inferred this practice .

But the Reader needs not wonder to see the Scriptures so alleadged , for the truth is , either our Opposites must so apply them ; Or leave them out ; Considering there are not any authenticall records of the Holy Ghost , neither any inevitable consequence grounded upon the same , to be produced for the justification of this practice . As for the 3. first precepts : ( viz. the Hearing of the Word , with a promise of Gods blessing to it , and how wee are to be edified : ) J have already spoken off ; And therefore doe now passe them by .

To answer the other places : 1. He saith , Our obedience to the Magistrates doth warrant and enjoyne this practice .

I answer , we are not ( throught Gods mercie ) so ignorant of our dutie this way ; But we know wherein our obedience concisteth , and how it is to be limited in things Lawfull a a Parr . Exposit. on Rom. 13. v. 1. p. 6. and not contrarie to the Word of God . As for the Oath of our Allegeance b b Cartw. Hom. in Eccles. c. 8 fol. 195 , 166. to them , it binds us not simplie , but in the Lord ; For we are entered so strictly into a Covenant with God , as no authoritie of Man or Angell can breake it . c c Obligatio haec tam arcta est , ut nullius creaturae imperio possit ullo modo solui . Ame : de consc . lib. 1 c. 3 ; p. 6.

Now , we are sure it is against Gods Law , that Magistrates either of themselves or by others , should devise false wayes d d Bucer de regno Christ . lib. 1 , c. 1 , 2 , 3. Martyr . in Iudg. 19. , as Churches , Ministeries , Worshipp , Discipline , &c. For to serve Iesus Christ in , and by them . But say they doe ? We say then wee must not give any approbation e e Bast . Castalion Annot. in 1 Cor. 8. , honour , or allowance unto them ; No not so much as with our outward presence and bodily gesture : For as their institutions are reall and substanciall idols , so they are by bodily presence and outward gestures 3. wayes honoured and reverenced . Genuflectione , capitis apertione , & corporis inclinatione . By kneeling on the knee , uncovering of , the head , and bowing of the bodie f f Zanch. de redempt . lib. 1. p. 401.

To be short , this our refusing to doe their unlawfull commaunds , is no disobedience at all g g perkins Comment. on Heb. 11 v. 23. Pareus Comment. in Hos. 5 , pag. 514. Tom. 1. Taylor on Tit. 3. p. 549. , because the fift Commaundement , in this case ceaseth to bind , and gives place to the Commaundements of the first Table which are greater . Some Papists are so reasonable in this thing , as they say the Pope is no further to bee obeyed and followed , then it may be done without sinne . So Felinus h h De Rescriptis : Si quando ver: sed nunquid . Hostiensis i i De Concess : praebend . proposuit . , Alphonsus de Castro k k Advers. hoeres . lib. 1 , c. 7. , & others . A reason for it is given by Ambrose l l Comment. in 1 Cor. 7 : They are the slaves of men , that make themselves subject to mens superstitions .

2. He saith , Every Scripture that commaunds them to follow after peace , warranteth and enjoynoth this practice .

Answ. Our concord and unitie with men , must be held , ( usque ad aras , ) not in errour and sinne , but in truth and goodnes m m Parr : Expos. on Rom. 15. 6. p. 250. For if it be otherwise , it is no peace but warre n n Orig. in Rom. 15. 5. Cyprian de lapsis Serm. 5. ; Yea a mutual conspiracie against Christ . I confesse , the name of peace o o Cicer. Philipp. 12. , is sweet , the thing it selfe both pleasant and desireable . But this is when it is with Puritie & Holines p p Zach. 8 , 19. Rom. 15. 4 Heb. 12. 14. Chrysost. Hom. 30. in Heb. 12 , Tom. 3 p. 64. nihil laeden pietatem , according to pietie , & in the Lord . If peace should be made ( as the Treat : here would have it ) with Antichrist and his adherents , that is , to worship God , in , with , and by their false Church and Ministerie , it would be like the peace with Antonie q q Cicer. Philipp. 12. and his Mates , that is not a peace , but an agreement of slaverie to them ; Yea truely of great impiety . Wherefore as Agamemnon ( in a Greeke Poet r r Eurip : Iphigen . in aulid . did answer his Brother , of whom he was requested to shew himself a brother , in giving his consent to a wicked act . So doe J answer the Treat my Brother , who would have me to joyne with others in the fellowship of false Chùrches & Ministers .

〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . My witts with thee J would retain , But mad to be I doe not mean . a a Melancth. in Rom. 14.

3. For this place , 1 Cor. 10 , 32. which speaketh of the preventing of scandals ; It is as fitly brought , as if a man defending adulterie , should bring for it , the words of the 7. Commaundement , Thou shalt not committ adulterie . For what is more directly against the thing he pleads for then it , if we consider the many offences which are caused by it ; And that the Reader may see how forceably the place is , to overthrow his owne cause . I will speake here little touching offences .

The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greeke , hath the signification * of breaking a Rule , Order , or institution . In Hebrew it is named Micesol of halting , or causing another to tripp or fall by something cast in his way . The Chaldee Takul , and Sireak Cheshela , is of the like derivation .

In the Arabian tongne the word is Shuch so named of unsetling another . In propriety of speach , it signifies the crooked peece in a trap , to which the bayt is tyed ; at which a Mouse , Rat , Wolfe , or any other vermine biting , the trapp falls down & catcheth the beast .

According to Tertullian , a scandall is Example of a thing not good , but evill , leading or emboldening unto sinne . Or thus it may be : It is a Word or deed , either evill in it selfe , or in appearance giving occasion of falling to others . b b Daven . Quaest. 7. p. 40. Aquin. 2. Qu 43.

Againe , Touching offences , they are given 10. wayes . 1. When false Worship is practised c c Eze. 23 33. Pelarg Quaest. Evang. in Mat. 18. p. 205. polan. Syntag. Theol. l. 6 , c. 3. p. 339. . 2. Bad counsell given d d Mat. 23 , 22. Hunnius in Mat. c. 18. p. 606. Melancth. in Evang. fest. 5. Mich. p. 552. . 3. Weake Christians caused to goe a stray e e Willet . on Rom. 14. Quaest. 3. p. 641. . 4. The stronger greeved f f Eckius Hom. fest. Mich. p. 700. Tom. 5. . 5. Evill men hardened in sinne g g Zanch : prae : 3 ; p. 539. Aret : in Mat : 18 ; p : 643 . 6. New opinions broached h h Pareus in Rom: 14 v. 13 ; p : 173. 7. The Gospell caused to be evill spoken off i i Eze: 36 Cent : 1 , l : 2 ; c. 4 ; p : 448 : . 8. Our duties neglected to the Brethren k k Ames de Consc: l. 5 ; c. 11 ; p : 286 , 287 ; Chrisost: in 2 Dom: advent : p : 309. Ton 6 . 9. Ill Example shewed l l August ; cont : Adimant : c. 14 fol. 136 , 6 , . 10. Consent or approbation given to unlawfull things m m Perkins on 1 Mat : 5 ; p. 58 , Ton : 3 .

The hearing stood for , causeth scandals in everie one of these particulars ; For it breaketh the Holie Order n n See Par: Rivet : Calvin , Mercer ; Comment ; in Hos: 5 , 10 ; , which the Lord hath set and setled in his house ; makes way unto down-right halting between Christ & Antichrist ; drawes many aside from their former carefull walking . And sooke as when a man sets up & baits a trap , we say now woe to rats & mice ; woe to Foxes , Wolves & the baggage vermine ; So when this scandalous snare was first laid , men might have said , woe , woe , woe , considering how many would be ensnared , catched , destroyed , and killed thereby . Againe , what is it , but a will-worship , a pernitious & most hurtfull advice ; a readie way to perswade weake ones o o Daven ; Quaest ▪ 7 ; p : 40. , to thinke that the false Church is not so bad , but that they may goe back unto it . Hence are many righteous hearts made sad : Idolaters countenanced & made beleeve , that such as come to their worship , doe like their way well enough● in their hearts , but for some by respects differ a litle from them .

For the practice it selfe , it is that which Paul never planted p p Chrisost: de in comp: nat. Dei Hom: 3. nor Apollo watered , nor God increased : Of it I cannot say as one said in Sophocles q q Soph. Anti. : It is no Child of two dayes or yeares birth , but hath been , no man knoweth how long since . For if we looke beyond the Treat : there wil be found no footsteps of it , either in the Example of former churches , or among the Orders , rules , & commaundements of our Saviour Iesus Christ & his Apostles , or in any learned mans writing ; either ancient or moderne ; So that I may say of it , as one r r Leo Epist: 97 ; c. 3 ; said , How are th●se new devises brought in , that our forefathers never knew ▪

To be short , our Profession for it lies under contempt & reproach ; witnes , Mr. Pagets , s s Arrow ag : Bro● ; p. 59. passage in his booke against us , where he scoffingly writes , that the Treat . first book , being his Iustification of separation , sick of Iehorams incurable desease , the guttes of it fall one day by day , yea he openly plucks out some of the bowels thereof with his owne hands .

Againe , what watch can the Saints keepe each over other , when some are in the true Church , other at the same time in the Sinagogues of Antichrist . Finally , seeing we have not one Example for it in all the Scriptures , we may wel say , it is a bad Example ; and he that alloweth of it , allowes that which the Lord never allowed . For the rest in his writing , seeing it concerneth not the point in hand ; I will not therefore meddle with it . But for the present will here conclude ; desiring the Lord to shew mercie to such as have offended in this hearing of false Ministers ; & with the right hand of his power to rayse them out of this pit ; and to keep the feet of his saints from falling into this or the like snare .

FINIS .