An ansvvere made by Oliuer Carter, Bacheler of Diuinitie: unto certaine popish questions and demaundes

● An answeare vnto the ▪ Papist , which made this Offer , or Challenge .

Papist .

CHrist did commit , at his departing hence , the testimonie of that trueth , whiche he 〈◊〉 for , & the c●●uersion of all nations to the beliefe in him , ●●tr●● church of God , which then stoode ●●pally , and almost onely , in the perso●● of ● Apostles and of a fewe moe : that , by their ●ching , and others afterwarde of their ●ng , the Christian religion might be plan●● all nations , coastes , and corners of the ●● : Wherefore , I aske the Protestant , ●t Church that was , which conuerted all ●s● countries , that nowe be Christen , to the ●th of Christe ? and let him shewe me that ●er his Churche conuerted anie people , or ●nde in the earth , from Idolatrie , or Genti●● or Iudaisme , to the true religion of Christ : or that this his faith was taught to anie nations , in steede of true Christianitie : or anie other Churche , but the knowne Catholike Church to haue done this : And I recant .

Answeare .

TRue it is , that Christ did commit the Mar. 16. 15. preaching of the Gospell vnto the Apostles , and vnto a few moe , and gaue them this commaundement : That they should go vnto all the world , and preach the same Gospel vnto al nations , who very painfully executed their office , & conuerted manie of sundrie countries , to the truth . Neuerthelesse , suche was the rage of the wicked Emperoures & Tyrantes of that time , that the doctrine of the Gospel , was not vniuersally receiued , nor generally taught , as it appeareth at large by the historie of the Acts of the Apostles : as by the assembling of the Apostles in corners , & by their preaching in the night season , in priuat houses : Yet we confes , that the voice of the Apostles was sounded abroad to al the world , so that as Tertullian saith , the Parthians , Tertul. cont. Iudaeos . the Medians , the Elamites , the people of Mesopotamia , of Armenia , &c and many other nations , and prouinces known & vnknowen , haue receiued the Gospel of Christ . Saint Paule tooke comfort , Phil. 1. 13. and reioyced in his imprisoment , for that there were some , euen in Neros court , that beganne to geue eare to the Gospell . Of the same matter writeth Eusebius , that the court of Valerian the Emperour was now become the church of god : so he saieth , because that some of his familie beleued the truth , albeit the Emperour himself was a tyrant . Euen in that sense it might haue bene truelie saide , that the churche of God was in king Achab his house , when 3. Reg. 18. 3. wicked Iezabel his wife did most of all persecute Goddes children , and when Elias complained , that he onelie was left aliue , seeing that Obadiah gouernour of Achabs house feared God , and fed an hundred Prophetes , with the meate whiche came from Iezabels table . But for bre●ities sake , I will answeare to youre que●ion , which seemeth to consist on these two ●ointes : First , What Church it was , which ●onuerted all countries , that nowe be Chri●ten to the faith of Christe : Secondarilie , whether the religion , or faith of the Protestantes , was euer taught to anie nations in steede of true Christianitie . Whosoeuer shall diligently peruse the ecclesiasticall histories , or the bookes of the auncient Fathers of the churche , they shall easily perceaue , with what difficultie Christianitie was embraced , sith that the name of Christ was so odious to the Emperour of Rome , ( whose Empire was exceeding large ) tha● whosoeuer professed himselfe to be a Christian , was tormented moste cruelly vnto death . So that it cannot bee proued , that manie nations or countries , were wholly christened , or receiued the gospel of Christ , but in secrete manner , vntill the time of Constantine the great , which was three hundred yeares after Christ , or thereabout . For before that time , whosoeuer sincerelie preached the Gospell , hee was forthwith accused of sedicion , of preaching heresie , and of new & strange doctrine . They were charged commonly by the Heathen , to bee adulterers against kinde , Manquellers , Killers of children , Churchrobbers , most wicked , most hurtful , the enimies of mankinde , Tertul. in . Apologetico . guiltie of all kinde of wickednesse , Enimies against the Goddes , against the Emperoures , against the lawes , against good order , against nature it selfe , & whatsoeuer mischiefe happened , the Ethnikes 〈◊〉 impute it alwayes to the Christians . The citie of Athens , which had beene the ●●●taine of all knowledge , was become the sinke of most horrible idolatrie : Where P●ule preaching Christ , the Philosophers ●●●e Epicures and Stoikes resisted him , 〈◊〉 saide , what will this babler say ▪ Others Act. 17. 18. said , he semeth to be a setter forth of strange Gods : Others saide , may we n●t know what this new doctrine , wher●● thou spekest , is ? in such rage the Ethniks and Infidels continued against the Christians , vntill God of his mercie , raised vp that worthie Emperour Constantine , who aduaunced mightely the Gospell , suppres●●● the enimies thereof , and gaue the truth free passage , throughout his dominion and ●mpire . In his time all nations were called from Idolatrie , Gentilitie , and Iudaisme , & so continued manie hundred yeares , vntill the Diuel was let loose , and supersti●on inuaded the churche : so that , albeit ●e name of Christianitie remained after●arde vnder the Popes gouernement , yet Christes religion was abolished and aban●oned . It is faith in Iesus Christe , and ●he profession of true religion , whiche maketh a Christian , and not the outward name , and therefore suche as were falle away from Christ his Gospell , vnto the inuentions of man , or suche as were conuerte onelie in name , not being instructed in tr● doctrine , were no more Christians then the shadowe of a man is a man , or● picture , the thing which it doth represen● so that it was , Nomen sinere , Christian i● name , and not in deede . By the Turke a● so both the name and profession of a Christian , was altogether vanquished . Thu● much for this parte . You aske moreouer whether the religion or faith of the Protestantes , was euer taught to anie nations in steede of true Christianitie . I beseeche you examine well the doctrine of the Protestants , and compare it with the doctrine , of Christ , of the Apostles , of the primitiue churche , and with the religion set foorth by the godlie writers , whiche wrote about the time of Constantine , or shortly after : And if you can proue , that we doe not in al pointes agree with the religion of Christ & of the apostles , as it is set down in the old and new Testament , ( Choose what translation you will ) or that we consent not in all thinges , concerning faith , and the substance of the true doctrine , which the auncient fathers , as appeareth in their bookes ( a few erroures by them mainteined , onelie excepted ) then wee will willingly yeelde 〈◊〉 you . As for example , I will note a fewe capitall pointes of religion , because I will not wander in generalities .

First we confesse with them , one waye to ●e iustified and saued by , which is , by ●●● free mercies of God , graunted vs by th● onely death & passion of Christ our onely Lord and Sauiour , and that faith is the onely meanes and instrument , to apprehend this our iustification and saluation : That Christ is our Mediator both of redemption , and intercession : that we ought ●● pray onely vnto God , not to anie Saints ●● parted , and that in the name of Christ , and not in the name of anie Angell or ●●int , whatsoeuer : To praye for those that be aliue , and not for those which bee deade : That in the Lordes Supper , according to his institution , we doo spiritu●●ly by faith , feed vpon the body of Christ , and that Sacrament truely and faithfully receiued , as the remembraunce of the ●eath and passion of Christ , is a spirituall foode and sustenaunce vnto our soules , and a pledge of eternall life to satisfie our consciences : We say further that Christ , his naturall body , fleshe blood and bone , is no● in the Sacrament vnder the fourme of breade , it being onely in heauen , on the right hand of God , according to the articles of our faith , where in body he shall remaine , vntill the day of iudgement , though Christ our Sauiour , as he is God in his diuine nature , filleth all places , and is with his children , powring daily the abundance of his graces vpon them : Lastly we say , that man hath no free will of himselfe , to doo anie good thing , no not anie Phil. 2. 13. good thought , but that it is God , that worketh in vs both the will , and also the deede , according to his good pleasure , euen of his free grace . If you will either giue eare to the doctrine which we do preach , or peruse the bookes which wee haue , and doe write , you shall see that the Protestantes , did neuer vary one ynch from these pointes of true religion , which I haue recited . But because you make mencion of a knowne catholike Church , it behoueth ( for that an Harlot may haue the countenaunce of an honest woman ) to distinguish betwixt the true church of God , & the counterfeit Church , and to shew howe they both may be discerned , and knowne . Wee must needes auouch with the holy spirit of God , that the true Church of Christ , being the congregation and companie of the faithfull dispersed ouer the face of the whole earth , is discerned and knowen by the woord of God : For the true Sheepe doo heare the voice of their Pastor Christ . Neither is there anie other signe or marke Iohn . 10. 3. to knowe the Church of God , sauing onely the Scriptures of God , which are the treasurie of all truth . For the citie of the Ephes. 2. 20. Saintes , and houshold of God ( as the Apostle saith ) is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles , and Prophets , Iesus Christ himselfe , being the chiefe Corner stone . So then , that is the true Catholike Church , consecrated a spirituall Temple 〈◊〉 God , which is guided and ruled by the doctrine of the Apostles , and Prophets . Therefore the Church of God is called the Spouse of Christ , for that shee ought in al ●inges , to harken vnto the voyce of the ●idegroome . In like manner , the church ● as a piller , which the Lord God hath ● in the earth amongst men , therein so to little his truth , that all stormes and Tempests , euen the gates of hell and all the fernall powers fighting against it , yet sh● they not preuaile , because shee stayeth ● selfe onely vppon the woord of God , a● thereby stayeth others , and therefore a g●ly father saith , The piller and strength ● the Church is the Gospel , and the spi● of Iraene . lib. 3. cap. 11. Aug. de Vinitate Eccle. cap. 3. lyfe . Likewise Saint Agustine , sa●ther be certain books of our Lord , vn● the authoritie whereof , ech part agreeth there let vs seeke for the Church , therb● let vs examine and try our matters . An in the same Chapter , I will ( saieth hee haue you to shew me the church , not b● the doctrines of men , but by the woor● of God . Saint Chrisostome saith , it cannot Chrisostom in opere imperfecto hom. 44. by any means be known , what is the true church , but only by the scriptures ▪ what the counterfeit Church is , it appereth by the promisses : truely euen that Church , which consisteth onely in outwarde shewe , challenging authoritie ouer the woord and spirit of God , prescribing a rule of woorshiping of God , by her owne deuise , without anie warrant of the woord of GOD : which deuiseth other meanes to be saued by , then onely Christ : which feigneth that her faith can neuer faile , notwithstanding ●●e neuer aspired vnto the true faith of Christ , but hath persecuted the same , keeping the sonne of righteousnesse , as vnder ●●●ile or cloud , not suffering him to shine in simple mens mindes and hartes , by his holye Scriptures , which are the keyes of Rom. 1. 16. knowledge , the very power of God , to saluation , to as many as beleeue . If we cannot vnderstand the scriptures , the fault is in vs , and not in them . As no man may condemne the brightnes of the sonne , because his eye is not able to sustaine the clearenes therof : so the hardnes of the mistery , which we can not sometimes compasse , or perfectly vnderstand , in the scriptures , ought not to take away from vs the vse of the scriptures . Now ●●●ing you depende much vppon the aunci●●● doctors & fathers , I purpose , for the satisfying of the reader , to knit vp this diffe●●●ce betwixt the church of God , and the counterfeite Synagogue of Sathan , with these woords of S. Augustine , Whether they haue the church or no , let them shew Aug. de venitat● . Eccle. cap. 16. ● the Canonicall bookes of the holy ●riptures : we must knowe the Church of ●hrist , euen as we likewise know Christ , ●hich is the head of the church in the ca●nical scriptures . And what can be more ●laine , then that which is spoken by the Euangelist Iohn , disseuering the t●●● Church from the false , the true Christia● from hipocrices , and the faithful ministe● , and preachers of the Gospell , from fa● prophets , and counterfeit teachers , in th● fewe woordes : Hereby shall ye kno● 1. Ioh. 4. 2. the spirit of God : euery spirit which c●fesseth , that Iesus Christ is come in th● flesh , is of God : & euery spirit which c●fesseth not Iesus Christ to haue come ● the flesh , is not of God : wherfore the sam● is not of God , which denieth either the d●uine or humaine nature of Christ , and t● true vniting of them both , or derogateth any thing , from the office of Christ , beeing● king , who onely hath all spirituall rule an● authoritie committed vnto him , beeing Prophet , who onely is appointed , to del●uer vnto vs his fathers minde and will● and to teach vs all truth , & being a Priest● who hath offered a sweete smelling Sacrifice for vs vnto God the father , euen his owne body vppon the Crosse , once for all : which onely Sacrifice is of force , and value to purge , and clense the sinnes of all those that beleeue . But who be they , which denie Christ in person or in office ▪ euen that Church , that woulde haue Christ , as hee is ●n , to be in any other shape & fourme , then that , which he receiued of the virgin Ma 〈◊〉 in sundry places at one time , contrary the nature of a true body : or affirmeth ●at mankinde lost through Adams fal and ans●ression , could be saued by any other lea●es , then onely by Christ , whether it be ●y mans merits and works , or by the par●ons and indulgences of the Pope , or by ●nie other deuise of man . Finally , that Church which teacheth anie other media●●● betwixt God and man , either of re●emption , or intercession , then onely Christ , ●he same Church denieth Christ to haue ●ome in the flesh , and therefore is not the 〈◊〉 Church of God . The bare name or title of the Church , is not sufficient : but as gold is tried by the Touchstone , so we must prooue the Church by the woorde of 〈◊〉 which is the Touchstone of all truth . This Church by the preaching of the Gospell , by the Lodestarre of Christ his holy ●ord , hath from time to time , brought the ●le of God , from Gentilitie , from Iu●me , from the grosse Idolatrie , whiche ● haue vsed in your Church , and from ● darke dungeon of ignorance , and blindnes , into the cleare light , & shining brightnes of true knowledge : Yea this same r●ligion , and doctrine , which nowe we d● teach , was deliuered first by Iesus Chri● vnto the Apostles , then preached by them afterwardes ( yet not without bloodshed taught from time to time , for the space ● sixe hundred yeares , as the writings of a● the auncient Fathers doo witnesse● and so forwarde vntill by little and little your superstitious patched religion increased , by fire and Fagot and other extrem● tortures and cruelties . These thinges being manifest , I , tendering your saluation ● which doo call your ●elfe a Catholik or Papiste , doo most earnestly admonish you that according vnto your promise , yo● would yeeld your self vnto the eternal God , who knoweth all secrets , and abhorreth all hipocrisie . Let Christ Iesus by the scepter of his woorde rule your conscience , and direct your hart in his trueth , suffer the holy spirit of God , to instill the sweete tast of Gods holy woord into your minde , that you may hate your owne ignorance , and blindenesse , and study to attaine the true light , and to bee guided by the motions of the same comfortable spirit of God , which the Lord graunt to you for his Christs sake .

Papist .

Aske of him , what Church it was , which ● hath induced the Christian people tho●row out the whole worlde , to giue most ● humble credit in all pointes to the holy ●●●kes of the Byble ? what Church hath had 〈◊〉 discerning and seuering them from o●●● writinges of all sortes ? what Churche ●●th had the custody of them , and most safe●● hath preserued them , for the necessarie vse of Gods people , and from the corruption of aduersaries , aswell Iewes as Heretiks of all sortes : and let the Protestant declare vnto me , that this congregation hath had from time to time , or euer had any right herein , ●● anie other Church sauing the catholike Church : and I recante .

Answeare .

I Do merueile with what face , you can ●rrogate vnto your Church , that you haue moued the people throughout the ●orlde , to giue credit vnto the scriptures , 〈◊〉 that your Church hath deterred the ●●●ople , from reading them , affirminge ●●●m to be harde and difficult , daunge●●●us Pigghius Libro . 3. Cap. 3. Hetarchia . to the simple , and vnlearned , a nose 〈◊〉 waxe , a shippmans hose , a dead letter , and either of enuie , vnto the poore sou● whom you call dogges , and hogges , a● sing this text : giue not that which is h● vnto dogges , or of hate vnto the scriptur● you haue kept the key knowledge , wh● is the holy woorde of God , vnder a va● in an vnknowne tounge : fearinge ( a● iudge ) lest the misty cloudes of your persticious deuises , would vanish aw● if the bright beames of Christ his G●pell might shine in simple mens mind● What humble credite do you giue vnto Scriptures , seing that one of the piller● Eckius De Ecclesia . your Church , saieth , That the Scriptur● are not autenticall , or of credite , b● onelie by the warrant , and aucthori● of your Churche of Rome : an other your Doctoures , hath these woorde● The Apostles , saith he , when they deliu●red the Creed , neuer said , I beleue t● holy Byble , or the holy Gospel : but the Hosius , in confessione Petri. cap. 80. saide I beleeue the holy Churche : A● likewise , in an other place , he saith . ● any man haue the exposition of th● Church of Rome , touchinge any plac● Hosius . De Expresso Dei verbo . of the Scriptures , although he neithe● knowe nor vnderstand , whether or how● it agreeth with the wordes of the Scriptures , yet he hath the very word of God . ●nd how doubtful & vncertain al your in●●●pretations be , Cusanus a Cardinall 〈◊〉 the Churche of Rome sheweth : It Nicholaus Cusanus de autoritate ecclesiae , et concilio supra et contra Scripturam . 〈◊〉 no meruaile , ( saith he ) though the practise of the Churche expounde the ●●●iptures at one time one way , and at ●●●other time another way : For the vnderstanding or the sence of the scriptures , run●●●h with the practise , and that sence , so agreeinge with the practise , is the quic●●ninge spirite : And therefore the scrip●●res followe the Churche , but contra●iewise , the Churche followeth not the Scriptures . And whereas in verie ●eede , the scriptures be the light , that ge●●●th sight to the blinde , and rightly called 〈◊〉 candle , whereby the theefe is taken , the truth which doeth disclose all errours , 〈◊〉 rule to square , and frame mans lyfe , 〈◊〉 power of God vnto saluation : I muse ●●●uely , howe you da●● presume , to keepe his hid treasure , from Gods inheritance , ●nd yet pretend , that you do perswade them ●●●stantly , to giue most humble credit there●●●to : And forsomuche as you do challeng , ●●●e discerning , & seuering the Scriptures , ●●●om other writinges of all sortes , you haue in verie deed not onely corrupted the tr● sense of the Bible , but also abased the authoritie of the scriptures , and haue mad● equall , or rather preferred your owne decrees and constitutions , before the hol● Bible : the errours in your old translation o● the Bible , ( which you falsly ascribe vnt● S. Ierome ) be so manifest , & so grosse tha● euery childe may easily espy them : as i● the third chapter of Genesis these worde● Gen. 3. 14. are to be found , Ipsa conteret caput tuu● She shall breake thy heade , meaning th● woman . Which text the Louanistes woul● seeme to reforme , do put in ipse , referring it to Christ . You may see into what miseries you woulde bring vs , to haue vs to beleue , that the Virgin Marie , should brus● the Serpents head , whereas the words are to be vnderstanded of the seede of the woman . Likewise in the Epistle vnto the Corinthians , your olde translation hath these wordes . Omnes quidem resurgemus ▪ 1. Cor. 15. 51 , sed non omnes imutabimur : Wee shall all rise againe , but wee shall not all be changed . Which words be vntruely translated : for all shall not rise againe , because that at Christes comming , some shall be founde aliue : yet neuerthelesse , All must 1. Cor. 15. 53. be chaunged , and this corruptible flesh must put on corruption . But you wil perhaps say , that the fault is not in the translation , but in the Printer . Why then hath your Church suffered the same translation , to haue beene printed so often , and hath not corrected these faultes . Nay , why with your Tridentine generall councell Concil. Triden . precisely say , Let no man be so bolde or presume by any manner of colour to refuse the old common translation of the Bible . To conclude you persuade the world if you haue authoritie , not onely to allowe what translation ye list , but also as your owne Canonistes doe auouch , that the Pope the heade of your Church , can at 〈◊〉 pleasure , dispense against the Lawe of God , against the Lawe of nature , against Extra . de constitutionibus statuta Canon . felici . the Apostles , against all the commaundements of the olde and newe Testament : That hee is Christes Lieftetenaunt , not onely ouer thinges in heauen , ouer thinges in earth , and ouer things ●● hell , but also ouer the angels both good and badde : whereas the true Church of God , hath not at any time made her selfe ●●udge ouer the worde , and lawe of God , 〈◊〉 alwaies hath vsed subiection vnto the ●●●e , grounding all her religion and faith ●●on the same worde . And this you must needes confesse vnlesse , you will denie a knowen trueth , that we ( whose religion you doe so vehemently withstande ) haue alwayes perswaded the people , not to beleeue vs one iotte further then we bring the woorde of God for our warrant . And whereas you further enquire , what Church hath had the custodie of the Bible , and hath most safely preserued it : I must needes say , that God of his singuler mercie towardes his Churche , by his diuine prouidence , hath alwayes preserued his woorde , to the comforte of his children : as he preserued Elias in the wildernesse , Daniel in the Lions denne , & the three children in the fornace . Howe , I pray you , hath the Byble bene preserued by your Churche , sith the whole worlde can testifie , howe you haue burned the olde and newe Testament , whiche thing is yet freshe in mans memorie● Did not Cutbert Tunstall , being then Bishop of London , cause the newe Testament to be burned at Pawles crosse in London : as your Churche learned of Iehoakim king of Iuda , who threw the boke Ierem 36. 23 which the Prophete Ieremie by Goddes commaundement had indited ( conteining the wrath of God , against Iuda ) into the fier ? But you will say , the Testamentes were falselie and vntrulie translated , and therefore were burned : If that had beene the cause , it had bene your partes , rather to haue disclosed , and quoated forth the erroures , and to haue amended the faultes . Doeth the mother cast away the milke , wherewith the children , shoulde be nourished , for that sometimes motes doe fall into it ? but rather culleth forth the moates , & giueth the Milke to the children : euen so you ought to haue done . What faultes were , I beseech you , in that translation ? you neuer noted anie , if there had bene , as indeede there were none , why haue not you set forth a better : what doctour of your Churche or fauorer of your Romishe Religion hath written , in whose workes can not be found some errour ? yet we burned them not , but are content to giue them the readinge , and do reuerence them so farre as they agree with Gods truthe . Further if ●n Angell should speake or write , we ought Gal. 18. 1. not to beleue him . Iudge you nowe ( laying away all affection ) whether your Church ●● ours doe better esteme of the Bible , or ●● the better preserue the same .

Papist .

SHew me why our common knowen church did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament , as the true religion contained in the same ? Shewe me why she kepte not as trulie and as faithfully the true sense of Gods woorde , as she preserued the worde it selfe ? Shewe me why we shoulde beleeue the Papistes ( as ye tearme them ) for the worde it selfe , and yet we shoulde beleeue you Protestantes for the meaning of the worde , rather than them ? Shewe me why you beleeued our Churche , telling you this to be Gods booke , and will not credite her , aduouching this to be the true and vndoubted sense of the same booke ? and last of all , shewe me why you beleeued the elder knowen Churche , affirming this to be the word , and doe not beleeue her , affirming Luther to be an Heretike ? Shewe me good reason or Scripture for these poyntes ? and I recant .

Answeare .

YF you meane by your common knowen Churche , the Churche of Rome ( as you will easily assent therevnto ) then your Church , is more common than true . For triall whereof , it is plaine , and that by Saint Barnarde , that the pastoures of your Churche of Rome , keepe not the spouse of God , whiche is his Churche but they destroy her : They keepe not the flock , but they kill , and deuoure . And one whiche writeth of your Church , in that great and solemne assemblie at Constance , saieth , They did quenche the spirite , they did dispise the voice of the prophetes Barnat . in synod Ramensi . they persecuted Christ in his members , and it was altogether a persecuting churche , Barnard in an other place , likewise crieth out , O miserable Rome , which in the time of our Elders , hast brought foorth the lightes of worthie Fathers : Parali . Vspergens pag. 396. but in our dayes hast brought forth the monstruous darkenes , shamefull , and slanderous to the time to come . An other calleth Rome , a schoole of errour , a temple of heresie . And your old friend Barnar . in concilio Ramensi . Thomas Becket , whome you haue canonized for a Saint , saith : Our holy mother of Rome , is become an harlot , and hath prostituted her self , that is , hath set her selfe open to euerie man for reward . Petrarch . And what neede we goe farre ? one of your Tho. Becket . ad Episco . Moguntinum , owne nest , in the late councell of Trent , sheweth his iudgement of your Churche of Rome . They haue brought to passe , ( saieth he , ) that godlinesse is turned into hypocrisie , and that the sauoure of Cornel. Bitonti●●s in c●ncilio ●ridentino . life , is turned into the sauour of death . Woulde to GOD they were not gone , with one generall consent , from religion , to superstition : from faith , to infidelitie : from Christ , to Antichrist : from God to Epicure , saying , with wicked heartes , and filthie mouthes , there is no God . Truth seketh not to be shrouded in corners . I haue noted before a fewe places amongst many , in which you haue corrupted the text of the Byble . You seeme to vrge this matter instantly , that your Church hath kept , and auouched truely and faithfully the true sense of the Scripture , and doo merueile verie much , why wee will not giue credit vnto you . I will giue you a taste of a fewe places , which your Church hath fouly wrythed . Where the Apostles ( yet so Luke . 22. 38 ●e maiorit . et o●ed . vnam sanc●am . Psalm. 8. 6. rude , that they thought with outward weapons to withstand the enemies ) doo offer vnto Christ two swoordes : Pope Boniface doth expound these words , saying : behold two swords , that is to say , the Pope hath the power , both of the spiritual sword & of the temporal . So they apply corruptly the psalmist , thou hast made al things subiect vnto him , that is to say , to the Pope : the catel of the field , that is to say , men liuing in Antoni . in sum . ma. p. 3. Titul. 22 cap. 5. the earth : the fishes of the sea , that is to say , soules in purgatory : the birdes of heauen , that is to say , the soules of the blessed in heauen . Pope Alexander treading most cruelly vppon the Emperour Frederiks neck , Psal. 91. 13. abuseth this part of the Psalme . Thou shalt walke vppon the Aspe and Basilisk , the young Lyon and the Dragon shalt thou treade vnder thy feete . What need many testimonies , seeing that your church hath wrested the whole booke of the Psames , which concerne God the father , and his sonne Christ , to magnifie the Virgin Mary withall : that whereas shee acknowledgeth Christ to be her Sauiour , and herselfe to be the handmaide of the Lorde , you go about to make her a Goddesse , and say ; that she is fidelissima Dei socia , a felow mate with God . As also another of your Cardinals calleth her Dominam & Dean nostram , our Lady and Goddesse . Where you Ambrosi . Catharin . concil . Tri. Session . 2. Bemb . Cardi. in Epist. ad Charol . say , that your Church gaue vs knowledge ●f the holy Byble , it is most vntrue , for that you hidd the same in an vnknowne tongue , and woulde not suffer the vnlearned to haue the vse thereof . And albeit you very rashely impute heresie vnto Luther , truely all the heresies , which euer he maintained , he sucked forth , out of the nurcerie of your Church , and treasury of your Pope . I● you knowe anie other in his writings , sauing that he defended with you the real presence of Christs body in the Sacrament , I would haue you to name it . But it is you● accustomed wont , to call vs heretikes , although you be not able to prooue , that w● defend any one heresie . Neuerthelesse , w● must be content to beare your woordes , fo● so the olde Prophets were charged with ●●dition and heresie : and so Tertullus charged Paule the Apostle , beginning his oration with flatterie , and ending the sam● with a manifest vntruth . We haue ( sait● he ) found this man a pestilent fellowe , ● mouer of sedition among all the Iewes , throughout the worlde , and a chiefe maintainer of the sect or heresie of the Act. 24. 5. Nazarets : ( for so the wicked tearmed the true Christian religion , as you doe , and to answere you fully , we say with the Apostle , ) That after the way which you cal heresie , Act. 24. 14. so woorship we the liuing God , and his sonne Christ , beleeuing all thinges which be written in the Lawe , the Prophets , and the Gospell .

Papist .

AGaine , what Church is that which hath exercised by Christes appointment discipline vpon offenders in all degrees : and for that purpose hath continually executed lawes and canons ecclesiasticall , with excommunication , degradation , suspension , and suche like ? Proue me this geare to haue proceeded from Protestantes , or from anie other Churche , then from the Catholike , and Irecant .

Answeare .

Concerning discipline . First you alledge excommunication , the true vse whereof you neuer had in your Church of Rome , sichens it firste declined from the auncient Church of Rome . Now , as a bloudie mother , you send out the thunderboltes of excommunication , against all those , which reiect your superstitious traditions : euen like your grandfathers the Pharisies , who Ioh. 9. 34. in the time of our sauiour Christ , did excommunicate all those , which did truely con●●●se Ioh. 16. 1. Christ , and yet thought they pleased ●●d highly . Iohn truely did prophesie of Apoc. 13. 15. 1. Cor. 1. 3. 1. Tim. 1. 20. 〈◊〉 Church , that she should excōmuni●●●e and kill , all suche as woulde not worship the image of the beast , that is , ●●●eiue the ordinaunces , and decrees of the sea of Rome . Excommunication w● not vsed in the primitiue Church , but ● graue offences , as appeareth by the Ap●stle Paule , who did excommunicate one ● incest , and Himeneus and Alexander , ● making shipwracke of the faith of Chri● They did not in the primitiue Church ● communicate without the consent of t● clergie & people : which discipline deca●ing in Saint Ambrose his time , at th● least in the church where he was , he lam●teth in these wordes : The olde congregation ( saith he , ) and the Church following Ambros . in . 1. Ti. ca. 5. had Seniors , without whose counsell , nothing was done : but I knowe no● by what negligence , it did grow out o● vse , vnlesse it were , either by the sloth fulnes , or rather the pride , of the pastors whilest they onely would seeme , to haue the preheminence . Saint Cyprian , disputing this matter at large , speaketh after Cyprian . lib. 3. Epist. 19. this maner : Euer since I was Bishop , I determined to doe nothing , without the● councell of the cleargie , and consent of the people . But you doe vse this kinde of discipline , or rather abuse it priuatly , in euery light monie matter : but chief●ie against suche as will not embrace your Romishe traditions . Iohannes Scotus alias Duns one of your Capitaines , who liued about the yeere of our Lorde 1336. complaineth Lib. 4. sent. dist. 18. of the abuse of your excommunication , and of the Papes keyes , sayin●● , That excommunication before his time , was not vsed but vppon greate and iuste causes , and therefore feared : but nowe ( saith he ) it is broched and published for euerie trifle , and therefore groweth in contempt . Furthermore you doe neither excommunicate , degrade , or suspende ( except it be a verie great chaunce ) for anie other cause , then is aforesaide . You haue rules to dispense with your gelding Priestes : Si non caste , tamen caute . If that thou canst not liue chaste , yet play the whoremonger cunningly . You degrade some , and when you haue taken your Popish robes from them , you turne their bodies to ashes , by cruell fier . But to knitte vp all in fewe wordes , our Sauiour Christe did not promise , to ●●ue behinde him a Church , which should ●●ecute suche ecclesiasticall discipline , as ●●u haue prescribed : or shoulde alwayes ●●twardly in great pompe appeare to the ●ewe of the whole world . But he calleth Luke . 12. 32. Iohn . 16. 20. ●●s Churche a little flocke , shewing them before hand , that in the world , They shou● Iohn . 16. 20. weepe , and lament , and haue tribulat●on : that the world shoulde reioyce , b● they shoulde be sadde : and that as all th● wicked persecuted him , the Lord : so shou● they persecute them , his seruauntes : d● proue this : and I recant .

Papist .

AND because Christ ( as Saint Pau● saith , ) hath established in his Chu●che , some Apostles , some Preachers some teachers and Doctoures , eue● till his comming againe , I aske the Protestant , what Church that is , which is abl● to shew , and proue the continuance and vs● of those functions euer since Christ his time , by plaine accompt of orderly succession , and is able to name by the hystories of all ages , the notable persons of al the foresaide states in their gouernement and ministerie ? And if he can proue vnto me , that their Churche hath neuer lacked the same appointed officers , or that anie other Churche or congregation besides oures , hath alwayes kept that charge : and I recant .

Answeare .

TRuth it is , that Christ gaue some to Ephe. 4. 11. be Apostles , some Prophetes , some Euangelistes , some Pastoures , and teachers : but where doe you reade , that our Sauiour Christe euer promised all these functions to continue successiuely , to the worldes end ? Shew vnto me anie , which was called apostle , or prophet , after Christ his Apostles . Saint Paule the blessed Apostle , maketh mention of false Apostles , which alwaies withstood the doctrine of the Gospell , maintained the ceremonies of the Lawe , and the inuentions of their owne braine , and set them selues opposite vnto the true Apostles , and if you will claime your succession from them , I will easily agree vnto you . There hath bene Preachers , and teachers at all times , saue onely when they haue bene kept vnder by your tyrannie , which haue preached Gods truth , and reproued your grosse Idolatrie , whom your Church hath alwaies persecuted vnto death : and euen vntill this time , there hath bene and are Christians in Graecia , and Asia , which haue euer●●●e , and doe yet , vtterly detest the Pope , the head of your Church , with all your de●●●s , and traditions . But shewe mee in one place , I pray you , of the Scripture where euer Christ promised anie such Paulus Aemilius . succession , to continue in all ages . Y● were so , that the truth of Gods worde , ● the functions in Gods Church should ●ceed alwaies by ordinary succession : t● you had a good foundation , to builde y● succession vpon : Then Christ our Saui● by right , should not haue controuled ● Scribes and Pharesies , which sat● Moses chaire , which bragged of succe●on , as well as you doe , saying : We are the seed of Abraham , we are the discipl● Io. 8. 33. Io. 9. 28. Luke . 20. 4. of Moses , vnto vs God hath made ● promisses , as for Christ we knowe n● from whence he came : And theref● they asked Christ , By what power he d● Acs. 20. 28. such thinges , & who gaue him that au●thoritie ? and so they might very well ha● said , in respect of their outward successio● For so Annas and Caiphas were Bys●ops , aswell as Aaron . But that warni● and admonicion , which Saint Paule ga● vnto the congregation of Ephesus , touc●ing succession , might satisfie you . I know this ( saith he ) that after my departinge● Rom. 10. 17. there shal greuous Woolues enter in amoung you , not sparing the flocke moreouer of your owne selues , shall m● arise speaking peruerse thinges . And againe he saith , That true faith , cometh ( not by succession ) but by hearing ( not Rom. 10. 17. the Bishoppe of Rome ) but the worde God . Yf Christ had appoynted anie such succession , would he haue forewarned vs , Mat● . ●4 . 15 . that desolation of abhomination should sit ●●●he holy place : and that Antichrist should ●●●rude him selfe , into the roome of Christ ? If you looke well about you , you haue no cause to glory in succession , for that by your writers sufficient is spoken , to discredit your succession : for one saith , That many Popes haue fallen into heresies : that ●ira in Matth. cap. 16. Hildebrand ( in whose time defection from the faith tooke place ) was charged by a generall councell , to be an adulterer , a Churchrobber , a periured person , a Platin. in Rom. 1● ma●queller , a sorcerer , and an apostata . Another calleth the Popes monsters and 〈◊〉 shapen creatures . If your heade and chiefe of your Church be such , what shall we iudge of the rest ? I wil take for proofe of your succession , euen the confession of Pope ●drian the fourth : Succedimus non Pe●●●o Adrian . 4. in pascendo , sed Romulo , in parrici●●●o . Aug. cont. Donatist . lib. 6. We succeede , saith he , not Peter in ●●●eding , but Romulus in killing . To be ●●●t , what auaileth the succession of your Church , vnlesse you coulde prooue , that she hath alwayes mainteined , the doctrine of Christ : For Saint Augustine saith , Tha● many doo giue the outward marke of a Aug. cont. Donatist . lib. 6. Byshop to wolues , and be wolues them selues . That the truth of Gods woord ma● be the touchstone of lawfull succession , giu● eare to the godly councell , of a learned father . It becommeth vs ( saith he , ) to obe● Irenaeus lib. 4. cap. 43. those Priestes in the Church , which hau● their succession from the Apostles , an● together with the succession of their Bishoprikes , according to the good wil o● God the father , haue receiued the vndoubted gift of the truth . An other being pressed with the like succession saith If any of my predecessors , haue not obserued , Cyprian . lib. 2. Epist. 3. and kept the same that our Lor● hath taught vs , both by his example an● also by his commaundement , his simplicitie may be pardoned : but we , if we do● the like , can hope for no pardon , bein● now admonished , and instructed of ou● Lord. And comparing all other Churche● with the primatiue ●hurch , the same fath● saith : If the pipes of the conduit , whic● before ran with abundance happen ● faile , do we not vse to search to the hea● The Pristes of God keeping Gods commaundementes must doo the same , that if the truth haue fainted or failed in any point we returne to the original of our Lord and to the tradition of the Gospel , and of the Apostles , that thence wee may take the discretion of our dooings , from whence the order it selfe and originall first began . Thus muche concerning the succession of your Church , hauing no warrant by Gods woorde ,

Papist . 6.

AND for the necessarie vse and execution of the foresaide offices , they must further bee asked , what sacraments the Protestants ministred for the space of a M. yeares together , in which they confesse their congregation to haue beene neare or wholly hidde : what correction or discipline they kept for offendors , to whom they did preache their heresies : Where did 〈◊〉 principall pastor sitte in iudgement ? ●●●re did they gather , as in a councell , ●●●ye the trueth in doubtfull matters ? H●●e might Christian men iustelie , of●●●d with some of their Bretheren , haue sought out your officers or congregation , to make complaint of him ? or how if it lacked any man to haue beene baptized of them or to haue receiued the communion of them or haue ioyned them selues in faith and religion vnto them ? How might ( I say ) that co●temptible and vnknowne companie ha● beene found out in this case ? If therefo● you can shewe me , that euer anie man soug● iustice or knowledge of truth , sacrament● faith , or anie helpe of saluation at the Pro●stants secret and close Church , or anie oth● where else , but of Gods knowne Cathol● Church : And I recant .

Aunsweare . 6.

TOuching Sacramentes , we fin● two appoynted expresly by the wor● of God , namely Baptisme , and the Lor● Supper . The one doeth signifie our ne● birth and regeneration , that as by wat● the filthe of the body is washed cleane : through faith in the bloud of Christ , o● soules are clensed from all sinne , and w● are incorporat , and ingraffed into the b● of Christ , and made members of his bo● of which he is the onely head : the other do● put vs in remembraunce , that Christ I●sus is our spiritual foode and sustenaun● that he is the celestial Manna , which came downe from Heauen , and we ( faithfully r●ceiuing the visible , and externall signes , according to Christ his institution , in remembraunce of his death and passion ) spiritua●ly doe feed vpon the body of Christ , a●● receiue the fruites of his death , euen remission of our sinnes . Other sacramentes we haue no warrant for , in the worde of God . These sacramentes were onely vsed by Christ and his Apostles , and by all their true successours . The sacramentes in the olde Testament , vnto which anie promise was annexed , were these two onely , that is circumcision , and the Passouer : which doe rightly and aptly represent 〈◊〉 two sacramentes set forth in the newe ●●●ament , as Baptisme , and the Lordes ●●●er : which haue bene vsed alwaies ●●●e true Church , euer since Christ , and ●●●ued of the auncient Fathers , as the onely knowne sacramentes , appoynted by ●●●rist . So Augustine affirmeth , That August . de Doct. Christian . lib. 3. cap. 9. 〈◊〉 Lord & the Apostles deliuered vnto ●●●ewe sacraments , in steede of manie : 〈◊〉 the same to be most easie in doing , ●●●st reuerend in vnderstandinge , and in ●●●eruation most pure : to wit , the sacraments of Baptisme & the celebration of th● sacrament of the body and blood of ou● Lorde . Likewise another sayth , The sacramentes Paschasius de coena domini . of Christ , in the catholik● Church , are Baptisme and the bod● and bloude of our Lorde . Which sacramentes also , and all the principle poynte of our true religion , Constantine the Christian , and godly Emperour , and al● his noble successours mightely defended and set forth the same . The same Constantine , was christened , not by the Pope , bu● by Eusebius Bishop of Nicomedia , no● Hierom. in Chro. in a corner , but in the presence of many other , not popishe , but Christian Bishopes Hee ouercame Licinium his sisters husbande , Onomasticon . who persecuted the Christians The same Constantine summoned a councell at Nice , against that blasphemous heritike Arrius : And as the historie saith the Emperour before named wrote vnto all Sozomen . lib. 1. Cap. 17. the rulers of the Churches , that they shoulde be at Nice by a day , to the Bishop of the Apostolicke sea , to Macarius Bishope of Hierusalem , and to Iulius the bishope of Rome . In that flourishing time liued sundry godly writers , whose bookes nowe extant , doe shewe that they embracced the same faith and religion , which we at this day do professe , touching the Sacramentes , iustification by faith onely , inuocation to God alone , saluation onely by Christ , and all other chiefe poyntes of doctrine , whose workes if your Romish Church , had kept inuiolable , and had not corrupted , as you did in like manner , with the Canonicall books of the Bible : you might haue learned a difference betwixt trueth and errour .

And if you would yet hearken to the doctrine which they doe deliuer , they will teach you that your Romish church is a cage of vncleane birdes , and that your religion is mingled with all heresies ( though you charge others with the same fault ) and that you haue no true discipline , but rather crueltie , no principall pastor , sauing Antichrist , no officers , but Blood-suckers , and no Churche in deede , but the Sinagogue of Sathan , that cruell mother , whiche will needes haue the Childe to be cutte in peeces , which spareth no Sexe or kinde , no Infant , though it bee in the mothers belly , no hoare heade , nor aged person : finally your church hath no truth , but falshood , and i● wholly imbamed with the heresies of a● ages . You take parte with the Iewes an● Pagans , you care not with whome yo● shake handes , so it be not with Christ or his holy Gospell , vnto which you doo beare ● deadly hate . And yet you stand vpon you● reputation , and would haue men to beleeu● you , whatsoeuer you speake . Whereas you call our Church , A contemptible , vnknowne , close , and secret company , at thi● day , the Lord be thanked , the greater part● of Europe , besides the countries I spak● of before , doo ioyne together with vs i● one truth of doctrine . I would haue yo● to prooue by the worde of God ( for you● wordes bee no warrant , to auentur● our soules vppon ) your Romish Church to bee the auncient and true Catholike Church , and to professe the same faith and doctrine truely , which Christ & his Apostles left behinde them , and that which was in the time of those godly Emperours of Rome , and a long tyme after : or that Christ did promise to leaue such a Church , as should haue on● generall and chiefe Pastor , to sit in iudgement to punish offendors , and to call a generall councell to try the truth , or else we cannot ioyne with you against God and against his sonne Christ . For we acknowledge no other principall Pastor , but Christ Iesus , whom the heauens must conteine , vntill the time that all thinges be restored , which God hath spoken by the Act. 3. 21. mouth of al his holy prophets , since the world began , who neuerthelesse is euer present with his Church .

Papist . 7

AGaine , I require of the Protestant , to declare by good histories , or by reasonable likelyhod , when the true church ( as they account theirs to be ) decaied : or in what yeare , the religion of the Papistes came in and preuailed ? Whether all their true Church was so soundly sleeping , that none would preach against it : euen at the ty●e when it first entred . Whether all nations , sodeinly , and in one yeare , were mooued vnto the doctrine of the Papistes , no one man of all their true ●hurch , either preaching , teaching , wri●●●g , nor attempting any thing against it , ● making mention of it ? Whether all ●●●kes of seruice were altered ? Whether 〈◊〉 a moment the masse was sayed in steede of their Apostolike communion : Whether sodenly men began to pray for soules departed , sodenly required the helpe of Saintes in heauen , sodeinly the tongue of common praier was altered . Tell me in what yeare of our Lorde , vnder what Emperour , vnder what Pope , vppon what occasion , this merueilous mutation was made , by whome all these thinges were wrought , who preached against it , what storie maketh mention of it , who of al your Pastoures preached against it . Was Goddes Churche so voyde of the spirite of truth , and strength that euen then , when it most flourished , it had none that durste open his mouth agaynst suche corruption of religion at the firste entering in of it , and when it mighte soone haue beene repressed ? If it coulde not haue bene stayde , tell me in what yeare of our Lorde , this mutation was made and who of the true Preachers withstode our doctrine : and yf wee note you not by the names , euerye one of your captaines , and the seuerall errours , whiche they taught , and the time and yeare when they rose against the receiued truth , and the councels , wherein they were orderly condemned : If I say this canne bee doone on your side towards vs , and wee do it not for improofe of your Church and religion : I recante . And for that purpose because the gouernement of the Bishoppes of Rome , is moste misliked of them , And yet moste notoriously knowne by euery Historie , let them note the Pope that first brake of the course of his forefathers beliefe , and Regiment in anie Articles of faith , or necessarie Christian vsage : And I recant .

Answeare . 7.

MY meaning is not to make anie long or large discourse or rehersal as concerning the Originall and offspring of your holy Churche of Rome , whose beginning was with moste detestable and heynous murders poysoninges , and other suche like meanes and practises : neyther yet to dilate vppon the proceading succession or continuance thereof , from time to tyme , and vntill this present day : neyther doo I mynde to remember you of the honour and reuerence , which by the collour of your succession , you haue wonne therevnto from God , vnto whome onely such honor is due : But to answeare you in few words the true Church of God began first to decay , whe● as your Byshoppes of Rome , not conte●ted with their dioces and their peculia● charge , vsurped other mens rightes an● interest : or when they chalenged aucthoritie , aboue their felow Byshoppes . Thi● was in Phocas time , who flew his Maist● Mauritius the Emperour , and ( to curr● fauoure with the Pope ) yeelded vnto hi● that superioritie , that he shoulde be calle● the vniuersall Byshoppe , and heade of th● Churche . And so saith Platina : Bonifa● ( saith he , ) the thirde of that name obtained Platin. in Bonis . 3. of Phocas the Emperoure , ye● not without greate contention , that h● should be called , the heade of the Churche . So saieth Sabellicus : The Pope Boniface Sabellicus . the thirde ( saith he ) at his beginning , intreated Phocas the Emperoure , that the Romaine Church might be the heade of all other Churches : and that was graunted vnto the Apostolike Sea , not without greate strife : the Grecians claiming that honour , saying , that they ought by Christian pietie , to be chiefest , in respecte of the Empire , whiche long before that time , was at Constantinople . Yet it appeareth by the writinges of Gregorie the greate , that this challenge shoulde rather be a signe of Antichrist , then of a true minister of Christ : and therefore he writeth vnto Iohn Byshoppe of Constantinople , saying , It is not my . cause , but it is Goddes , not I onely but the whole Church is troubled , because godlie lawes , reuerend synodes and the verie commaundementes of our Lord are ouerthrowne , by a certaine proude and pontificall name or worde of vniuersalitie . And againe he saith , Whosoeuer Gregor. lib. 4. Epist. 36. doeth call him selfe an vniuersall Byshoppe , is either Antichriste , or the forerunner of Antichrist . And agayne , None of our Romaine Bishoppes euer chalenged this name of singularitie , none of my predecessors euer agreed to vse this prophane worde , we will not receiue this honour , though it were offered vnto vs . And , to speake the playne trueth , euen from this time Goddes true Churche beganne to decay , and the superstitions of your Churche of Rome , by little and little to increase : and as your August . Churche grewe in wealth and riches , so it waxed proude and carelesse , as a good writer spake of it : Ecclesia peperit diuitias et filia deuorauit matrem . Th● Church brought forth riches , and t● daughter deuoured the mother . Fo● euen this same Gregorie who liued sixe hundred yeares and odde after Christ , not wtihstanding his owne bookes doe witnesse agaynst him , to all posterities : yet in his latter age , he claymed this name of vniuersalitie , though he could neuer attaine it : for not onelie he , but all before him , and manie after him , yeelded them selues vnto the Emperours , refusing to be called vniuersall byshoppes , or heades of the Churche . Marcellus , Meltiades , and Siluester Byshoppes of Rome , were in subiection vnto Constantine the Emperour , Sirilius in subiection to Theodosius Anno domini 388. Hilarius vnto Iustinian , Anno Domini . 528. Gregorie the first vnto Mauritius , Anno domini 600 Adrian and Leo to Ludouicus Pius , Anno domini 830. Sergius vnto Lotharius , Anno. 840. Benedict . 3. and Iohn 9. vnto Ludouicus the Emperour Sonne of Lotharius , Anno domini . 856. But some of these byshops with their successoures peeced and patched with certaine superstitious ceremonies your Churche , euen vntil ●ildebrandes time , otherwise called Gregorie the. 7. at whiche time ( as it was prophecied long before ) Antichrist ●d beginne his full raigne . Which Hilde●ande by a councell of nineteene byshops ●olden at Brixia , was condemned for a Abbas vrsperg , Anno. 1083. ●riured person , and a Necromancer . As for your masse ( which was and is a more abhominable Idoll then the idoll at Delphos , thoughe the Diuell himselfe was worshipped there in personall forme ) it was seuen hundred yeares in setting together , and in framing . And transubstantiation the piller of your masse not hatched vntil your Lateran councel beganne which was after Christ . 1215. yeares : and some 1215. euen the chiefest doctoures of your Churche cannot tell , whether it be true , or false , certaine or vncertaine , or a verie dreame , or no. For Petrus Lumba●●us rehearseth these doubtes , and therevnto he addeth his aunswere . Quibusdam ita videtur , Quidam dicunt , quidam Sentenc . 4. dist. Si autem . tradunt , quidam concedunt , alii putauerunt , substantiam ibi panis et vini remanere : Some men iudge thus , Some say thus , Some haue written thus , some graunt this , some other haue thought thus , that the verie substance of the breade and wine remaineth still . But marke your doctours iudgement and aunswere . Si autem queritur , qualis sit illa conuersio , an formalis , an substantialis , an alterius generis , definire non sufficio : Yf a question weare moued , what maner of conuersion or chaunge this is , whether it be in forme , or in substaunce , or of some other sort , I cannot define . You may see your great doctors to be as ignorant , and as doubtfull , as the rest . An other of your doctours saith . How Gabriel . Biel. in canon . lect. 40. the body of Christ is there , whether it be by chaunging of something into it , or Christ his body begin to be there to gither with the bread , both the substance and the accidents of the breade remaining still without chaunge , it is not found expressed , in the canon of the bible . Beholde your Church : Behold your doctours : Beholde your vniforme assent and agreement , whiche vntruely you so much boast of . What time prayers for the dead soules , Inuocation to Saintes , seruice in an vnknowne and straunge tounge began in your Romish Church , it is not much materiall , seing they be all expresly ●gainst the worde of God . The continu●unce of an errour , doth not make the er●our , a truth . You may knowe by the scrip●ures , that the soules of such as departe his life in the faith of Christ , be with La●arus in Abrahams bosome ( as Saint Luke . 16. 22. ●ohn saith ) in rest , and need not your prai●rs . Apo. 14. 13 Such as end theire life in wickednes , ● dye without true repentaunce , be in hell , ●here as the scripture saith , that there is ●o redemption . Concerning inuocation , ●nd praier , which is a parte of gods wor●hip , you robbe God of his due honour , if ●ou giue that to anie creature , which is ●roper to the creator : For God saith by ●is prophet , Honorem meum alteri non ●abo : I will not giue mine honour to ●nie other . And againe : Call vpon me ●n the day of thy trouble , and I wil heare Io. 16. 23. ●hee . So likewise our Sauiour Christ ●aith , whatsoeuer you shal aske my father ●n my name , he shall giue it you . And Saint Iohn saith . If anie man sinne , 1. Io. 2. 1. ●ee haue an aduocate with the Father , ●esus Christ the righteous , and he is the propiciation for our sinnes : and not for ●urs onely , but for the sinnes of the whole world . By the which words we ● taught , that Christ our sauiour is not on● the mediatour of our redemption , but also ● our intercession , & doth plead our cause w● god . Why would you haue vs to take Chr● his office from him , as you do by inuocati● & praying to saints , in making them mean● for vs , seeing that the Saintes depart● know not our estate , & vnderstande not o● infirmities ? as Esaie the prophet doth w●nesse , saying : Though Abraham be ignorant Esai . 63. 16. of vs , & Israel know vs not , yet tho● O Lord art our Father , & our redeme● thy name is for euer . Wherevppo● S. Augustine giueth this note : Tho● seest here ( saith he ) that neither Abrah● Aug. lib. de cura pro mortuis agenda . Cap. 14. nor Israel knewe after their death , wh● the estate was of their posteritie . And i● the same chapter ( he saith ) I am certainely perswaded , that the dead know● no more what we do here in earth , the● we being in earth , knowe what they do● in heauen . Touching seruice in an vnknowne speech , howe can it stande with the Apostles doctrine ? If the Trumpet ( saith Saint Paule ) geue an vncertaine 1. Cor. 14. 8. sounde , who shall prepare himselfe to battaile ? Also in the same Chapter . Let ● thinges bee done in the congregati● to edifying howe are the people ●lified whiche vnderstande not , what is ●oken ? But to make the matter more ●aine , the Apostle saith further : I had ra●er in the Church , to speake fiue words 1. Cor. 14. 19. ●th my vnderstanding , that I mighte ●so instruct others , then ten thousande ●ordes in a straunge tongue . You aske ●so who preached against the Churche ● Rome , for the space of a M. yeares ? ●uly euen from time to time , God had his ●hurche , which reproued your grosse ido●tries . And for a taste , I will name you a Reinulph . C●●● . ●we . The Monkes ▪ of Chester , which ●ere not idle bellied Monkes , but payne●ll Preachers , and lyued not vppon the ●eate of other mens browes , but by their ●ne handy labour , whom your Monkish ●ugustine ( sent into Englande by Pope ●regorie ) did finde meanes to murder ●ost cruelly , by incensing the king to make ●arre against them . Sabellicus saith , in the Sabellicus . ●are of our Lord 1111. the Bishop of Flu●ce beganne to teache & preach Anti●rist then to be born , & to be manifest . ●rnulphus a godly Precher , inueying a●ainst Anno. 1131 . the abominations of your Church was priuily hanged in Rome by you● Sabellicus . Platina . cleargie men : This is no tale but reco●ded by your owne histories . A counc● was holden in king Steuens time , vnd● Theobaldus Archebyshoppe of Caunterburie Anno. 1133. , charging the Byshoppes , that th● people shoulde learne the Lordes praye● and the Creede in Englishe . Gherardu● and Dulcinus , both being preachers , affi●med Anno. 1280. the Pope to be Antichrist , and Rom● to be Babylon . In the same yeare , king Henrie the seconde made Lawes at Claredowne in Normandie , abolishing th● Popes authoritie , taking away appellations , and Peter pence . In the citie of Tolouse in the yeare of our Lorde . 1178. a Anno. 1178. great number , both men and women professoures of the true religion , were by the Popes commissioners condemned to death . There were certaine christen people , called Valdenses or Leonistes , true professoures Roger Houeden . of the Gospell , as appeareth by the articles of their religion , which liued in the yeare of our Lorde 1170. And of these godlie Christians , speaketh one of your Laziardus . Anno. 1170. owne writers : who saith thus , The secte of these Leonistes hath a great shewe of pietie or godlinesse , because they liued iustly , and vprightly before men , Reinerius . ●nd doe beleeue all thinges very well , ●hich concerne God , and all the arti●es , which be contained in the Creede : ●nelie they doe speake ill of , and doe ●ate the Churche of Rome . I will not ●eake of king Iohn , who detesting your Romishe doctrine , was poysoned by a ●ayterous Moonke , at Swinested Abbey , ●n Lincolneshier . I let passe Iohn Wick●iffe person of Literworth , who reade the ●iuinitie lecture in Oxenforde , a zealous ●rofessour of all the pointes of doctrine , which we now mainteine : Whose bones , your cleargie tooke vp manie yeares after his death , and burned them . I coulde name Iohn Husse and Ierome of Prage Bohemians , whome the Emperour , and your Pope sent for , vnto the councell holden at Constance , vnder their safe Conductes , Co●cil . constan. to come and goe in safetie , yea , though they prooued verie notablie their faith , which word by worde agreeth with the true religion , now set foorth : Neuerthelesse contrary to promise & their owne hands & seales , most violently they condemned them for heretikes , & burned them . And to salue this sore , & bleare the worldes eies , they afterwarde decreed , that Fides cum haereticis non esset seruanda : that is , That faith ought not to be kept with heretikes . Gods name be thanked , it may sufficiently be proued , that in all ages there were some , which defended the truth , against your tyrannie . But to come to the Pope , this word Papa is a generall name vnto all learned men : and therefore doth not pertaine onely to the sea of Rome . Saint Augustine & Saint Hierome , writing one to another , calleth each other , Papa : though one of them was conuersant in Iewrie , & the other at Hippo in Aphrick . But to the matter . You woulde knowe , what wee mislike in the Popes gouernment , and what Pope declined first from his Forefathers faith and steppes . The Popes , or Bishopes of Rome , for the space of three hundred yeares after Christ , did for the most parte suffer martyrdome vnder the wicked Emperours , for the testitimonie of Christ , and the doctrine in these daies published : At which time they did not rule , but were ruled : After that , they liued other three hundred yeares , and more in a calme time , and in greate quietnesse , by Gods prouidence vnder Constantine the greate , and the god● Emperours his successors . Which time ●eeing expired and accomplished , they ●eeing pricked forwardes through pride ●nd ambition , did beginne to claime supe●ioritie ouer their fellowe Bishoppes , ●nd also to decline by little and little , from ●he perfecte rule of God his holy woorde ●nd veritie : And in steede thereof magnified , and extolled them selues and ●heir own inuentions & traditions , not stry●ing and contending who should excell or ●oe before one an other in pure and ●incere doctrine and holinesse of life : But ●ather who coulde woorke moste mischiefe and iniurie one towardes an other of them seeking one to depriue an other of theire Bishopprikes , and often times of lyfe , in taking one an other out of their Platina . graues , and also cutting of one an others ●ingers , and poisoning one another , and ●n making Lawes decrees and ordinan●es one against an other : there beeing sometymes two or three Popes at one time , in doctrine vnsound , in life wicked , and in this hurley burly , the Churche of Rome continued a verie long time , both before , and after Hildebrande . Neuerthelesse , this Hildebrande beyng yet Cardinall ( as one of your owne Cardinals ●enno Cardinalis reporteth ) did beate Pope Alexander with his fist , and kept him in prison ( for that he woulde not take vpon him to be supreame heade of the Churche ) which Hildebrande poysoned sixe Popes , was Auentinus . a coniurer , and raised vp Diuelles , and threwe the Sacrament into the fire . Another saith , that they were many , that both priuatly and openly cursed Pope Hildebrande , and said , that with his hatred and ambition , he troubled the worlde : and that vnder the colour of Christ , he wrought the feates of Antichrist . This was he , in whose time Sathan was let loose , and when your Churche of Rome , 2. Thes. 3. 4. 5. might truely be called the seate and harbour of Antichrist , the man of sinne , which setteth himselfe against God , which sitteth in mens consciences , & is euen that whore which Saint Iohn speaketh of , Which Apoc. 18. 3. shoulde make the nations of the earth drunken with the cuppe of her fornication , and hath imbrued her handes in the bloude of Gods Saintes . Surely , I muste needes say , if that these Poten●ates had bene but a litle whitled , and ●ot beastly drunke , they woulde neuer haue bene so deceiued by Antichriste , and receiued the marke of the beast . What Lorde , King , or Emperour woulde haue kissed the Popes foote , holden his stir●ope , & serued him at the table . To conclude , besides their wickednes in life , ( as many of them being coniurers , adulterets , namelie Siluester the seconde , whoe gaue him selfe bodie and soule to the Diuell , that he might be Pope : and Pope Ioane the woman Pope , who traueled with Childe , as shee was carried on foure mens shoulders Platina . about in procession ) their doctrine is most damnable and repugneth in all poyntes the Gospell of Christe : As one saying of Agryppa , speaking of the Pope , and and Churche of Rome , plainely sheweth . Agrippa . devanitate scientiarum . They commaunde ( saith he ) the Angelles : they haue power ouer the dead : they vse violence against the Scriptures to haue the fulnesse of authoritie : The Pope him selfe is become intollerable : There was neuer Tyrant , like vnto him in pompe and pride : The Legates of the Byshoppe of Rome , doe so riotte in their the Pope to be Antichrist , as Irenaeus a godly father sheweth : Antichrist ( saith he ) Irenaeus . being a runnegate , and a theefe , yet hee will be woorshipped as a God : And being but a bondseruant , yet he will be proclaimed and published as a King. Ancelm . 2. Thess. 2. Another saith : Antichrist shall faigne him selfe to bee holy : that hee may deceiue men vnder the colour of holines , yea he shall call him selfe God , and shal cause him self to be worshipped , and shall promise the kingdome of heauen . An other Gregorie in Iob. lib. 25. cap. 14. saith , Whereas he is a damned man , and no spirit , he pretendeth him selfe , to bee a God , and whatsoeuer he dooth no man may aske him , Domine , cur ita facis ? Sir why doo you so : Enter now into your owne conscience , examine these sayinges vprightly , looke vppon them with a single eye , and then iudge you indifferently . And I trust that you will recant , according to your promise .

Papist . 8

ITEM I aske what kinde and order of seruice or common prayer , what way of ministring the Sacraments , your Church had , before papistrie ( as you cal it ) preuailed in the worlde ? shewe me one booke or coppie of communion , or what else you list , that was in english , or lacked praying for the departed , or inuocation of Saintes in heauen , or that wanted oblation or sacrifice , or that charged a number to receiue , else the Prieste could not consecrate or say Masse , receiuing alone , or shewe anye note in a communion booke , that people should take the sacrament for plaine breade , or that they should giue no honour vnto it ? shewe this booke , or anie Church or congregation that euer had ani●●utenticall seruice , but ours : And I recant .

Answeare . 8

I Shal not neede to stand long in reciting what kind of seruice was vsed , before papistrie began : verely euen the same which our Sauiour Christ set foorth , which is recorded in the foure Euangelists , and in the Epistles and writings of the Apostles : from which , the Apostles & the congregations vnto whome they had preached the Gospell , departed not one iotte . And so the Apostle speaking of the institution of the Lordes Supper , saith : That thing 1. Cor. 11. 23. which I haue receiued of the Lord , the same haue I deliuered vnto you . As though he should say , euen he which ought onely to beare authoritie in the Church hath prescribed a way , and orders of celebrating his laste Supper : of whiche these are the chiefe partes : That the Minister shoulde shewe the Lordes death , by preaching his woorde and Gospell , by calling vppon the name of the Lorde in prayer , in deliuering the bread & wine , to bee receiued with thankesgeuing , that the congregation shoulde for their partes proue and try them selues touching the knowledge of GOD , fayth in the mercies of God offered in Christ , and true sorrowe and lamentation for their sinnes past , endeuouring them selues to leade a new life , & to shew forth the Lords death in consenting to his woorde , and institution . It is manifeste that the people , to the number of three thousande soules beeing of diuerse countries and nations , conuerted vnto the Gospell by Peters preaching , continued ( for so the holie Ghoste speaketh ) in the Apostles doctrine and felowshippe , and breaking Act. 2. 42. of breade , and prayers . This order of seruice was vsed in all congregations from time to time , amongest true Christians , and remayned perfect for the space of sixe hundred yeares and odde , yea , vntill the same was altered by your Popish Cleargie , who not being contented with that , whiche Chris●e , his Apostles and the auncient Doctoures and Fathers of the Churche had sette foorth , deuised a newe way of worshipping GOD , a new ●order of ministration , a straunge and newe ● deuised forme of prayer , and so turned all vpside downe . But in defence of the truth , we may boldely and truely answeare you , that we holde and mainteine the same order of seruice , the same ministration of Sacramentes , & the same prayer that the true Apostles and faithfull Christians vsed in all ages . And whereas you aske for Bookes in Englishe , which were written before Papistrie beganne , in which there is no mencion made of praying for the deade , of inuocation to saintes of priuate Masse . It is plaine that there were sundrie godly bookes of Scripture , whiche Dioclesian that wicked Emperour did burne in open markettes , whose steppes your Churche of Rome hath followed euermore in suppressing the truth by suche meanes : Notwithstanding , God be thanked , there bee manie volumes exstant , written both by the auncient and godly fathers of the Church , as also in the Saxon tongue & in verie old● English of which I haue seene one , veri● lately found in a verie olde ruinons wall which forbiddeth prayers for the deade whiche teacheth vs onely to inuocate th● name of God , which maketh mention o● no masse , but of the communion in bot● kindes , and to conclude doeth aduouche i● all pointes the same Sacramentes , th● same principles of religion , and the same manner of worshipping God , that we doe , and proueth the same by the scriptures . I● appeareth in histories that the Bohemians made peticion vnto the councell holden a● Basill , that they mighte bee permitted to haue still , the Gospels the Epistles and the Creede in their vulgare tongue : i● which peticion they affirmed , that in the Sclauon language , it had beene vsed of old in the Church , and likewise in their owne kingdome . Charles the great called fiue councels , namely at Mentze , Rome , Remes , Cabilon and Arelate & also decreed that onely the canonicall bookes of the Ex primo Tom. Conciliorum . Anno. 810. Scripture shoulde be reade in the Church and none other , as it was decreed long before in the councell holden at Carthage . He

●ame one of them in the whole Church , ei●her erected for your faith , Church and ser●ice , or not prepared for all sortes for catho●ke practises : proue to me that it was done , ●or any other seruice and religion , then ours , ●r that they be monuments of any other faith ●r church , then that common knowne catho●cke church : And I recant .

Answeare . 9.

WHereas you demaund , What furniture our Congregation euer ●ad , &c. I must needes tell you , that either ●he hauing of such furniture , or the want ●hereof are but weake & feble argumentes ● proue the true Church of God by . In ●utwarde pompe , in superfluous orna●ents , in vnnecessarie toyes , in vaine dec●ing of your Churches with gold and sil●er , and other precious and costly attire , in ●nprofitable rites , in furnishinge your ●mples with abhominable idols , in plea●ng the eare , in delightinge the eye , in ●uginge , in roaring , in toying , in trif●ng , in nodding , in becking , & in ducking , ● all such heathenishe shewes , and sensles significations , wee thinke your Romish● Church excelled all idolatrous Ethnicks before , and therefore in such superstitiou● trifles , wee will not compare with you , but willingly geue vnto you the preheminence , because they be not signes of true religion , but badges of Antichriste , and furniture to deck the whore of Rome withall : For all such kind of trumperie , be her very markes . As these was none of these toyes in the primitiue Churche , neither in anie true reformed Churche , sithence that ●●ine ▪ so there was no Churches vntill the time of Constantine the great , who builded churches and moued others to doe the like , for the people of God to repaire vnto , for to heare the worde of God truly preached , to receiue the Sacramentes faithfully ministred , according to Christes institution : & for the same vse and purpose , we haue builded Churches , and doe continually repaire and reedifie suche as be decayed and ●u●nous . But vnto the time of Constantine , the Christians were violentely and extremelie put to death , and persecuted of tyrantes hauing no publike places , to resorte vnto , but priuately assembled themselues , Ra●●lphus Ces●●iens . sometimes in dwelling houses , sometimes in hollowe caues and dennes , ●or feare of the cruel , & bloudie torments . I aurentius vall● de donatione Constantini . Laurentius Valla saith , that in times past before the raigne of Constantine the greate , the Christians had no temples , but secrete and close places , holie little houses , but no great and gorgeous buildinges , chappelles , no Churches , oratories within priuate walles , no publike and open Churches . For your chalices I will onelie vse the saying of Pope Boniface . Bonifacius . In time past ( saith he , ) golden Byshoppes vsed woodden chalices : but now wodden Byshopps vse golden chalices . In like manner in Constantine his time there were no altars of lime & stone , but communion tables of wood and a long time after , as it may easilie be proued by auncient writers . Athanasius writeth , Athanasius in Epist. ad sol●taria●● vitam agendam That the Arrian Heretikes in their furie and their rage , did carrie foorth and burne the seates , the pulpettes , the wodden table and boorde , and suche other thinges , as they coulde gett , out of Christian Churches . S. Augustine writeth the Augu. ad Bonifacium . Epist. 50. same of the Donatistes . Concerning your vestimentes , your catholike practises , and all your trumperies , and beggerly Ceremonies , for which you haue no warrant in Gods booke , we way not one rushe . Wee hould vs contented with that , which Christ our sauior , his Apostles , and other catholik godly Fathers vsed . Did not our sauiour Christ , I pray you , minister his last supper Math. 26. 26 . vnto his Apostles at the table , without any further ceremonie , euen as the Apostles , & 1. Cor. 10. 21. all true Christians haue done euer more ▪ whose example the Lord graunt vs to folow .

Papist . 10

I Aske of them , whether the Lutherans , Zwinglians , Illirians , Caluinists , Confessionists , Zwingfeldians , Anabaptists , and such like be all of one church . And if either they can proue vnto me , that these being of such diuersitie in faith and religion , make one church , or that eche of these sectes may giue saluation to their folowers being so disagreable one with the other , in high points of our religion : or that I should beleeue all these , rather then the catholike church , or one of these more then an other , all makinge such a bould chalenge , for the truth & Gospel , Let the protestants of all these conferr together , & shew me of these things , and with all , among them selues agree to what sort of these sectes , they would haue me , & I recant .

Answeare . 10

I Do merueile greatly , that you impute Aug. contra Anabaptists . B●llinger ▪ contra Anabaptistas . vnto our religion , the heresies of the Anabaptists , & Swingfeldians , seing that wee doe not in our daily sermons inueigh against their blasphemous errours : but also haue written sundry bookes , to confute the the same . You doe aske a verie hard & difficult question , which you do vtter , either for want of wit , or lacke of knowledge : to wit , Whether Caluin , &c. were of one Churche , & whether they gaue saluation to their followers . It is not in man precisely to define , who is of Gods Church , for that they only be of Gods inuisible church , Whome God hath elected vnto saluation in his sonne Christ before the foundation of the world Ephe. 1. 4. was layd , & God only doth knowe who are his . But it may be that you vnderstand it of the visible church , & then I will aunswere you accordingly that we are certainly persuaded , that they were Gods children , and that they ended their life , and closed vp their eyes in the true faith of Christe , & doe rest now in Gods Kingdom . Where you seeme to charg them with manifold scismes , & diuersitie of iudgmentes , the truth is , that they agreed in all points with the scriptures , sauing that Luther in the real presence dissented from the rest : which heresie ( as I haue noted before ) he receiued of your church of Rome . I would not haue you to thinke , that we ground our faith and religion , or repose any part of our saluation vpon any particular Church , or Councel , or vpon any mortall man , as you do . We receiue mens iudgments , and writings , as they are men , and so may erre . And so the godly Fathers in times past Aug ad Fortuna●ianum . ●pist. 3. were reputed and taken . S Augustine hath these woordes . Wee ought not ( sayth he ) to accept the disputations , & writings , of any one be they neuer so Catholik , and prayse worthie , as we do receiue the canonicall scriptures , but that sauinge their reuerence due vnto them , we may well finde fault with , or reiect some thinges in their writinges , if it happen we finde , they haue otherwise thought , then the truth may beare them : so am I in other mens writing , and so would I haue others vnderstand myne . It is most true that Origem , Ambrose , Augustine , Hierom , & the other fathers of the Church haue their seuerall errors , & one doth write against an other most vehemently . What maruell is it , that these did differ , seing that ●he Apostles them selues could not agree alwayes in all pointes . Paule did withstand Gal. 2. 11. Peter in the face before all men . Platina , one of your owne storie writers , affirmeth that the Popes them selues , whom you brage so much of , did repugne one an others decrees . The next Pope ( saith he ) Platina in Stephano & Romano . either breaketh , or vtterly repealeth his predecessors decrees : For these little petie Popes , had no other studie to occupie them selues with all , but only to deface , the name of the former Popes : of which church were not only these Popes , but also your owne scholemen , & pillers of your religion : How came it to passe , that these thinges were vttered in your owne boks . Barnardus non vidit omnia : Barnarde did not see all things . Hic magister non tenetur : Here Tho. Aqu. in quodlibet q●articulo vltimo . one maister is not to bee receiued . Thomas Aquine , saith , that we are not bōnd vpon the necessitie of saluation , to beleue not only the Doctours of the Churche , as Hierom. & August ▪ but also neither the church it selfe , sauing only matters concerning the substaunce of faith . But lett all mens aucthoritie passe , and receiue that remaining in eight Persons , the which which the holy Apostle wriceth . Whosoeuer bringeth not the Doctrine of the Gospell , receiue them not . And againe : If wee or an Angell from heauen doe Gal. 1. 8. preach any other doctrine , than you haue receiued , hold him accursed . To conclud we ought not to leane either to this man , or that , to the right hand , or to the left , to this church , or that church in any thing whatsoeuer , further then the truth of Gods word doth direct vs . Neither doeth our saluation depend vppon anie earthly man , but we ascribe it wholy to our lord , & sauiour Christ , by whose stripes onely we are healed .

Papist . 11

MOreouer I aske of the Protestants , whether in the time , on which they hold the true Church to haue bene hidden or lost , the people , that learned this article of their Creede , I beleue the catholik Church , was bound to goe from the church , which they sawe , and which taught them both that article & all other things touching their faith , by which they were christened & receiued al other sacramentes & commodities of saluation ? And whether they were bound to seeke for this vnknowne & closse congregation , which they could neither come vnto , nor by ●hich they neuer receaued any benefit , nor ●ould receiue any , & so forsake the church , ●y whome and in whome they receiued both ●heir faith & sacraments . Shew me therfore ●hat the Christian men of those dates were charged to beleue any other church or seke for any other church , than that which taught them the articles of the church , and baptized them : And I recant .

Answeare . 11

YOu further demaund , Whether the people , when the Church was hid , were bound to goe from the church , which they sawe , & seeke the vnknowne church , & beleue the same , If you will vouchsafe to peruse that , which I haue noted : heretofore , which is also confirmed by sundrie learned authorities , viz. that the true church of God is to be sought for , & to be found only by the scripturs , which are the foundations of the same church , you may be satisfied heerein , that the people ought to stay them selues vpon the scriptures , & not to beleue any further , then Gods word leadeth them . The true church of God , is not alwayes most apparant in earth , or consistinge of the greatest number . This appeareth by Noah , in setting him selfe against all the worlde Gen. 9. 1. ( the true Church onely excepted ) then were saued in the arke , and all the worlde else drowned . Was not Lot & his small familie , the true Church of God deliuered by Gene. 19. 16. the Angells , and the fiue whole citties destroyed ▪ where was the Church in the time of Elias , when he complained most bitterly , 1. Reg 19. 10. and said , I haue bene verie ielous , for the Lord God of hoastes : For the children of Israel , haue forsaken the couenant , broken downe the altars , & slaine thy Prophetes with the swoord , & I only am lefte , and they seeke my life to take it away . Where was the Church Esay 1. 21. when Esay the Prophet cried out . How is the faithfull cittie become an harlot ? it was full of iudgement , & iustice lodged therein : but now , they are murtherers , their siluer is become drosse , their wine is mixed with water , their Princes are rebellious , and companions of theeues . Where was the Church , when Dauid the Prophet did breake for the into theise words , there is not one that doeth good , Psal. 14. 4. no not one . If there were any Church of God , in these times , in which these Prophe●es liued , no doubt it was in verie fewe or els hid altogether , otherwise they would not so greeuouslie haue complained of the want thereof . And yet there was in all ●ese times , a Church in outwarde forme , & ●ewe , to the iudgment of man supposed to ● the true Church , where the Iewes the ●●e Church , at what time they bosted most ● the outwarde beautie of their Church , ●ying : We are the temple of the Lord , or Ierem. 7. 4. ●hen they sayd , wee are the children of God : whereas euen at that time , they went ● whoring after their owne inuentions . Io. 8. 41. But as the Scribes , & Pharisies vaunted ●em selues , that they were the true Church ●f God , the Disciples of Moses the sonnes Io. 8. 33. Marc 7. 7 , ●f Abraham , where as in deede by the te●●imonie of our sauiour Christ , they wor●●ipped God in vaine , teachinge the pre●eptes and doctrines of men , and erred , for ●hat they knowe not the scriptures , & were Math. 22. 29. Matth. 23. 14 ●ypocrites & dissemblers , deuouring wi●owes houses , vnder a colour of longe prai●r : euen so you , with your Church of Rome , ●hough you bragge neuer so much of your ●uccession , and aucthoritie , the holy ghost Apoc. 18. 10 ●lainly sheweth , that your Babilon shall ●aue a fal . Our sauiour Christ telleth both Luk. 19. 46 , ●ou , & the pharisees , that you haue made ( through your own deuises ) the temple of God adenn of theues . Triumph neuer so much , that you are the catholike church ▪ that you are in the arke of Noah , you are none of Gods , neither shall be , till you renounce , & abolish your vaine ceremonies ● false worshipping of God , & other thinges which you do contrarie to his holy worde● The true church of God , is compared to the Moone : which sometimes is full clere a● bright , sometimes in the Eclips is wan ● darke : so the church of God is now great now small , now calme and in quietnesse , nowe subiect to tempests , and troubles , nowe in many , nowe in fewe . And therefore you are greatlie deceiued , in that you do thinke , the Church vtterly extinguished , when it appeareth not at your pleasure . Thus you may learne by sundrie writers , that God hath had , & wil haue alwaies his church , whether it be more or lesse . One which hath written the Forte of faith , sayth● thus : In this battaile of diuells , notwithstanding Fortalitium fidei , lib. 5. the godly Princes , the souldiers the Ecclesiasticall Prelats & subiectes be ouerthrowen , yet euermore some remaine , in whom the truth of faithe and the righteousnesse of a good conscience is preserued . And although there remaine but two men in the world , yet in the same

church then al men yong & old for those yeres perished with out hope of mercy , because they coulde not vnite them selues and be incorporate to the companie and congregation whereof they neuer hearde , nor coulde by anie meanes surmise . Therefore let anie man aliue proue me , that either anie man could euer out of the trewe Churche be saued , or that anie other companie could bee knowne for the true and onely Church , but our common catholike societie , or that all men were damned for a thousand yeares togither , because they coulde not surmise of anie other Church , then that which practised all holie functions which Christ left for our saluation ●n the worlde : And I recant .

Answeare . 12

COncerninge your question , whether anie man for the space of a thousande ●eeres of blindnesse could be saued out of the Protestantes Churche , wee doe not yeld so much vnto you , that your blinde Church continued a thousande yeares , but of that I haue sufficiently spoken before , and haue shewed in what manner it began , how● i● grewe , and increased , and when it came to full perfection . You haue moreouer framed ( albeit vncunningly ) a dilemma or captious proposition , wherein you mean● to intrappe vs , in these words : If ( say you ) for the space of a M. yeres , the people could be saued by the popish sacraments , then the● was away to heauen , without Gods church : ● then al are damned which died , within the ●●● passe , of these M. yeres . Whiche argume● is vntrue in either parte : for wee neithe● can ascribe saluation to your sacramente● neither do we condemne those , which died ● the time of ignoraunce , but referre them ● Gods secret iudgement . Furthermore ● answere that without the Church of Go● there is no saluation , but this Churche ● not bounde , nor tied to place , time , or pe●son , but is inuisible , not knowne , saue onl● to GOD , who causeth his lighte to shin● forthe of darknesse , who doth by his hol● spirite breathe where he thinketh good● Who is no accepter of persons , as P●ter Ioh. 3. 8. Act. 10. 34. saith , But in euerie nation , he that feareth God , and worketh righteousnes is accepted of him : Who is sure in his promises & cannot denie himselfe . And Saint Paule groundinge vpon Gods election and mans faith , saith That the foundation 2. Tim. 2. 19. of God remaineth sure , & hath his seale , that the Lord knoweth who are his . Man cannot iudge whom God hath chosen . For although Elias supposed all the children of God in Israel , to haue been murdered , by wicked Iesabell , and cried out , I onely am left aliue : Aunswere was 2. Reg. 19. 1● made him by God , That hee had seuen thousande in Israell , that had not bowed there knees vnto Baall . And therefore we will not iudge those , which haue died in ignorance for want of knowledge , but referr al to Gods secret Iudgement , who knoweth whom he hath chosen . Touching the visible church , Saint Augustine saith , August . That acording to gods secret predistination , there be manie sheepe without the Church , and manie wolues within the Church , for he knoweth them , and hath them marked , that knowe neither God nor them selues . So that we neither condemne olde , nor younge , rich nor poore , noble nor simple , but leaue them vnto the Lorde , who knoweth his . God is able in a moment to turne mans harte . The theife that did hang vppon the right hande of our sauiour Christ when he desired him to remember him , when he shoulde come into Luke . 23. 42. his kingdom , was most louingly receiued . I haue knowen sundry persons which haue ben trained vp al their life time in your popish religion , and vppon their deathbed when they did see no waye but one , they haue renounced all your trumperie , and popish woorship and haue dyed faithfull Christians to mans iudgement . Therefore I ende this matter , with that saying of the Apostle : That Christ is able to haue Heb. 5. 2. compassion vppon them that be ignorant . So we referre all things vnto Christ as vnto our onely heade and Captaine , who hath conquered all our enemies , and reconciled vs to God his father . You repose a trust and confidence in your Sacramentes , wherevnto you doo ascribe saluation vsing them as a way or meanes to climbe vp to heauen , as though they coulde sanctificand , conferre grace , which , albeit you did vse them according vnto Christes institution , which you haue cleane altered , and doo not agree therewith in anie one pointe : yet they were but visible signes of August . inuisible grace , So we say that they bee true significations of Gods eternall grace , beeing ministred according to the rule , which Christ hath left . But if grace were necessarily ioyned with the outwarde Sacramentes , then the wicked receiuing the Sacramentall signes , shoulde also receiue grace which is farre from them . I will not vrge you with manie authorities for the proofe hereof , whether the sacraments conteine grace or no : Reade but your owne writers , and they can satisfie you herin , Bonauenture one of your own side saith : Bonauentura in 4. Senten . dist. 1. 4. 3. Wee maye not in anie case , saye that the grace of God , is conteined in the Sacramentes substantially , as water in the vessell , or medicine in the boxe ( for to vnderstand it so , it were erronious : ) But the Sacraments are saide , to conteine the Iohn de Parisus . de potest . Regia . cap. 26. grace of God , because they signifie the grace of God . An other of your schoole-doctors saith : The speciall grace of the passion of Christ is conteined in the Sacraments of the Church : euen as the power of the woorkeman is conteined in the instrument or toole , wherewith he woorketh . Euen as the children of the 2. Reg. 4. 40. Prophets sayde to Elizeus the Prophet : O thou man of god , death is in the pot : for that they feared , some poisoning herbe to be in the pot , because of the bitternes . Proueth . 18. And as the wise man saith , Death and life are in the power of the tongue and they that loue it , shall eate the fruite thereof . His meaning is that by the well , or euill vsing of the tongue , commeth eyther good or bad . But thus much of these matters .

Papist . 13

AGaine shew me anie church , or immagin , if you can by good reason , a Church of Christ , in which there is no gathering together for preaching , no spirit of prophesying , no rodde of correction , no order of ministring , nor anie spirituall function that can be named : prooue me that there can be a true Church for a thousande yeares togeather , and lacke all th●se things , and withall , that there was one vntrue Church , which for those many yeares onelye practised these offices to the saluation of many , And geue me a good reason , why this church that alwaies hath had these functions should be a false Church , and the other that wanted them all , shoulde be a true Church , and I recant .

Answeare . 13

THese be verie base , & childish reasons to prooue the true Church of God by , as though Christes Church shoulde bee alwayes knowne and disceened by outwarde offices , and functions . I haue shewed before at large , that the true church of God might be so hidden , & the t●ue religion so suppressed , that it might in mans iudgement seeme that god had no church at al , or else a very smal Church ▪ yet neuerthelesse God hath from time to time sent some Moses , some Elias , some Ieremie , some Baruch , or some one or other , to represent his true Church , to publish his true law & gospel , & to waken the people from sinne , that the world might thereby be without al excuse , as I haue named some , whiche liued in the time of ignorance , which diligently preached the Gospell and reprooued the idolatries of your Church . There was moreouer Crantrius . lib. 8. cap. 16. & . 18. Anno. 1240. certaine godly preachers in Sueuia , in the yeare of our Lorde . 1240. which preached against the Pope , affirming his authoritie to be vsurped , and the doctrine of the Churche of Rome to bee corrupt . Arnoldus de noua villa a Spanyarde complained , that Sathan had seduced the Lib. de testibus Veritatis . Anno. 1290. world , by your Church of Rome , from the truth of Iesu Christ , and said , That there ought to be no sacrifice for the deade . Which your Churche earnestly mainteineth . Anno. 1390 At Brugis were . 36. citezens of Moguntia burned for the doctrine of Christ , affirming the Pope to be Antichrist . Militius a Bohemian , a famous and godlie Preacher , inueighed against the Churche of Rome , saying , That Antichrist was alreadie placed . Marcilius Patauius , Extrauagant cap. Licet . intra doctrinam . Anno. 1300. Gulielmus Ockam , Iohannes Gandauensis , Luitpoldus , Andraeas Laudensis , Aligerius , Gregorius Arminensis , Andraeas de castro , Buridianus mainteined Francis . Petrarch . Epist. 20. Illiri . de sectis . all the Gospell against the Popes proceedinges . Dantes an Italian writer in his booke called , The canticle of Purgatory , declareth the Pope to be the whore of Babylon . Tauterus a Preacher of Germanie preached against mans merites and Inuocation to Saintes . Franciscus Petrarcha , about the same time did write an Italian meeter affirming Rome to be the whore of Babylon , the schoole and mother of errour , the temple of heresie , the nest of al trecherie . Iohannes de Rupe scissa Anno 1340. did write , that Rome was Babilon , and the Pope the minister of Antichriste . ●x bulla Gregorii ●nno . 1364. Conradus Hager taught twentie foure yeares togeather , the masse to be no sacrifice : & that monie taken for Masses , ●nno . 1384. was verie robberie and sacriledge . Iohannes Mountziger Rector of the vniuersitie of Vlme , disputed in open schooles against your Popishe doctrine . And at the same time , Nilus Byshoppe of Thessalonica Nilus . Anno. 1384. preached , and also wrote a booke against the Pope and the Churche of Rome , whiche booke is now extant in English . Truely there passed no age since Christ , as it appeareth by the histories , in which Christes Gospell hath not bene preached by some one or other , either priuately in the times of persecution , or publikely in the Chrisost. in Mat. 24. peaceable times , and tranquilitie of the Churche , when propheciyng of whiche Paule speaketh , and other godlie exercises hath beene vsed . But howe the true Churche may be knowen , it is manifest : surely euen in the Scriptures of God , in whiche we learne Christ , in which we may learn the church , & by which we may know the difference betwixte the true and false Church . S. Chris . saith : At this time all Christians ought to flee vnto the Scriptures : Because since heresies inuaded the Churche , there can be no triall of true Christianitie , neither can Christians , which be willing to know the true faith , haue anie refuge sauing the Scriptures . Againe he saieth , he that coueteth to knowe which is the true Church , howe shall he know it , but onely by the Scriptures ? The Church of God , I meane , euerie faithfull congregation , in the time of peace and quietnesse , doth vse preaching , Christian and profitable exercises and discipline , as ( Gods name be thanked ) wee haue at this day , especially in all reformed Churches , and we haue had since Christes ascention : your Churche hath alwaies persecuted the true Churche by fire , and faggotte and other exquisite tormentes . If I may be so bolde , I woulde aske one question of you : Whether the true Churche of God did euer from the beginning persecute , or that it hath bene persecuted . You will I thinke confesse with me , that Caine ( a figure of the malignant church ) did murder his innocent brother Abell , an image of the true Churche : that Ismael persecuted Isaac : Esawe , Iacob : Saul , Dauid : Gen. 4. 8. Gen. 21. 21. 9. Gen. 27. 4. the false Prophetes , the true Prophetes : the vngodlie Pharisies , Christe the Messias : the false Apostles , the true Apostles : the cruell tyrantes in the primitiue Churche , the faythfull Christians : and to conclude , your Romishe Churche , the true Churche , and professoures of the Gospell . And this thing was forewarned by our sa●iour Christe , That in the worlde his churche shoulde haue tribulation : that Iohn . 16. 20. the worlde shoulde reioyce , and his children Iohn . 15. 20. shoulde be sadde , that if the false Churche had persecuted the Lorde , it Iohn . 16. 2. shoulde in like manner persecute the seruaunt : and that they whiche shoulde Aug. de ciui . Dei lib. 22. cap. 6. persecute the Churche of God , shoulde perswade themselues , that they do God good seruice . Saint Augustine speaking of the persecution in the primitiue Church , saith : They were bounde they were imprisoned , they were beaten , they were ●acked , they were burned , and yet they multiplied . And Iustinus Martyr sheweth what he thought of those whiche suffered , being yet an Ethnike . When Eusebius . lib. 4. cap. 8. ( saith he ) I herd that the Christians were accused and reuiled of all men , and yet sawe them goe to their death , and to all manner terrible and cruell torments quietly , and without feare , I thought with my selfe , it was not possible , that suche men shoulde liue in anie wickednesse . But to returne to your Churche , we may say truely , that you neuer had , nor vsed in your Churche rightly according to the worde of GOD , either preaching , prophesiyng or discipline : as for prophesying vsed by the Apostles , and all other godlie reformed Churches , your Church of Rome neuer vsed . If you meane by the spirite of prophesiyng , which you chalenge as of right to your church , the forewarning of thinges to come , which office was ceased in the Church : then take heede least by your owne confession , you bewraye your church to bee that Sinagogue of Sathan , of which our Sauiour Christ geueth vs warning , that with signes and wonders if it were possible shoulde deceiue the electe . You preached very seldom , not in time , and out of time , as Paule admonished his scholler 2. Tim. 4. 2. Timothie : and when you preached , you preached not Christ and his death , to bee the onely raunsome for our sinnes , but your owne workes and meritorious deedes : not Christes Gospell , but your Legend of lyes , and your vaine and supersticious traditions , for whiche you had no warrant in Gods booke . The law of God and his true worship was either altogeather abolished , or else most wickedly corrupted before the times of king Iosias . Helias did also renue the same beeing before his time decaied . ●t seemeth in like manner that the people of ●e Iewes were fallen from God , when ●s they said vnto Ieremy , The words that ●ou hast spoken vnto vs in the name of Ierem. 44. 26. ●e Lord , we will not heare them of thee , ●ut we wil doo whatsoeuer thing goeth ●orth of our owne mouth , as to burne ●ncense vnto the Queene of heauen and ●o poure our drinke offerings vnto her , as we haue doone , both we and our fathers , our kinges and our princes in the ●itie of Iuda , & in the streetes of Hierusalem . Whereas in deede they woorshipped , Ie. 7. 17. & sacrificed to the Sonne Moone and Starres , and committed grosse Idolatrie , against God . Euen as you haue learned by that idolatrous people , and grounded I thinke vppon this place , to call the Virgin Mary Queene of heauen , and to sing Salue Regina , and againe , Regina coeli laetare . Reioyce O Queene of heauen . And euen from this same time wherein Ieremie liued and for the most parte , vntill the time of our Sauiour , there were false Prophets , and men of greate learning , which preached idolatrie in steed of Gods lawe , yet imagined that they serued God , shal we say that these were of Gods church because their religion continued so : long a time , woulde that excuse them ? or the Pharisees in pleading that they were the true Iohn . 8. 33. successors of Moses , the children of Abraham , and that they taught the Lawe of God , when as in deede they had corrupted the Lawe : Euen so albeit you boaste neuer so much of succession , or that your Church hath continued thus manie hundre● , or thus many thousand yeeres , or that your Churche is the knowne Catholike Church , if that you be not able to prooue by the woord of God , that your Church is the true Church , and the religion and doctrine of your Church is fully and wholy in euery point grounded vppon the Gospell of Christ ( which you shall neuer be able to doo ) then you boaste and bragge in vayne .

The Turke himselfe by this argument of succession and continuance , may approue the Alcaron and religion of Mahomet , and this to be as true a Churche as yours . This reason might the Aegyptians , the Persians , the Romanes and all Esawes broode haue alleadged for themselues . So that to ende this matter , it is neither the title or name of a Churche , neither the succession of Officers , or the continuance of the same , or the aucthoritie of anie man , that maketh the difference betwixte the true and false Churche , but onelie the true worde of God , which discetneth them .

Papist . 14

MOreouer let anie Protestant shewe , how that can be the piller of truth , whiche durst not for a thousande yeares together , claime either the preaching of Gods worde , or ministring the Sacramentes , or woulde vtter her selfe against falshood and superstition . Let any man shew that all the giftes of the Spirite , and functions of the holie Ghoste haue been taken from her for a thousande yeares together , and onely practised for the peoples vse by the adulterous Churche : Let it bee declared how the gates of bell haue not preuailed , and Christes woordes , promise , and warrant for her hath not bene voyde and frustrate of a bastarde churche exercising perpetuall idolatrie ( as they say , ) hath spoyled the true churche of all holie actions , and of the whole gouernement , and of the whole name of Christianity almost euer since Christes time . Let me see therefore howe the onely dareling and spouse of Christe shoulde be neglected so long of him : so long let the Aduersarie shewe that the Churche should euer by superstition and falshood committ adulterie , or deserue to be deuorced from him , or that Christ shoulde euer want his spouse in earth , or that he shoulde be either a heade without a bodie , or of such an vnknowen and small bodie : or that Christ his onel●e kingdome should become so contemptable , or that his spouse in earth shoulde euer lacke the singuler prerogatiue of Gods spirit , Shewe me these things , and I recant .

Answeare . 14.

COncerning the principal matter comprised in this your demaunde , it is sufficientlie answeared before , howe that all the Christians in Greece and Asia haue euer refused to agree with your Churche in faith and doctrine , & that God hath raised vp from time to time , since your Churche declined from the true and Apostolike faith , some which haue inueighed against your superstitious traditions , euen as it is recorded by a learned writer , who affirmeth , That there hath bene some in euerie ●ras . Paraphra . in . Iohan. age which haue honored , and embraced the Gospell : but that within the space of these foure hundred yeares , the zeale therof hath decaied in manie men . And whereas you aske , Howe the holie Ghost coulde be kepte so long from this close ●hurche , how the gates of hell haue not pre●ayled against it , howe Christes dearling ●ould● be neglected , howe Christe shoulde ●e head of suche a Churche , as hath either ●o bodie at all , or else a very small , and ●tle bodie ▪ I answeare , that albeit to your ●do ●mea● the Churche of God , whiche ●s the congregation of the faithful , be con●mptible and despised , yet neuerthelesse ● Gods eyes it is precious .

The holie Ghost commeth not in visi●le forme vnto the children of God ( as the Owle or Howlet presented himselfe in the ●ytime , and stared your Pope Iohn in ●e face , when he and his Cleargie were Nicholaus Clemaugis . ●t in a general Councell holden at Rome , by which occasion the Councel was dissol●ed ▪ ) but he is the comforter , which shall ●wayes remaine with the church of God , ●hich dwelleth with suche as be faithful , ●hich guydeth and ruleth their mindes , Iohn . 14. 16. ●hich doth sanctifie them inwardly , whiche ●pirite doeth breathe his graces , where ●e listeth , and when he pleaseth . And there●ore it is a great fault in you , to vtter suche ●ashe iudgement , and to propounde suche vayne questions , or rather as you seeme , to define where Gods spirite remayneth , as though you had him in a string , or that he should be at your becke and appointment . The wordes of Christ be true , That Hell gates ( which is the power of Sathan & Antichrist , which standeth in crafte Math. 16. 18. and violence ) shall not preuaile against the Churche of God . For you may burne their bodies , racke them in peeces , teare them in sunder with wilde Horses , boyle them in cauldrons , roaste them on spittes , broyle them vppon gridyorns , stabbe and prodde them in with bodkins or penkniues , throwe them vnto wilde beastes , or other waies to torment them , as your Church o● Rome hath vsed the children of God , euen this close Churche , whiche you so often do skoffe at . Neuerthelesse , their names are written in the booke of life . When yo● haue consumed the bodie , you haue no further power , you haue done all that you ca● for Christes Churche is Christes darling in deede , whom he wil not forsake , because he is alwayes faithfull , and sure in his promises . The mouth of God hath promised them helpe , whiche cannot lie . Christe i● deede is the true andonelie heade of his Churche , whiche be the faithfull children ●f God , truely called the temple of God , ●ecause that GOD is resident in them by ●is holie spirite : and these faithfull are the ●tones of the new Ierusalem , which is the Apoc. 21. 10. Ephes. 2. 20. vniuersall Churche of God , of the which ●uilding Christe is the chiefe corner stone , ●hough you haue taught the people of God ●therwise affirming , the Pope to be head ●f Gods Churche , and to be of equiualent ●ucthoritie with Christ . One of your schole●octors Panormitan . de election● cap. licet . abb . saith , That Christe and the Pope ●ake one consistorie , ( and sinne onely ●xcepted ) the Pope can doe whatsoeuer God himselfe can doe . And euen as you ●eale with Christe for the preheminence ●nd rule : so you will appointe him a body , ●r no bodie , or alter or chaunge his bodie , ●s you liste . You cannot limit GOD ●is Church , for his Church is in manie or ●ewe , as his heauenlie wisedome appoyneth . And therfore Christ saith That when●oeuer Mat. 18. 20. two or three are gathered togea●her in my name , I am in the middest of ●hem . And as one doth say , as is before Fortaliti . fidei lib. 5. ●lledged . Although there were but two ●en remayning in the worlde , yet in ●hem two , the Churche of God , which ●s the vnitie of the faithfull shoulde bee saued . Therefore , though man be ignorant whome God hath elected vnto saluation , and who be of Christ his bodie : yet God who vnderstandeth all secretes , doeth knowe who are his . And euerie member of Christ hath the spirite of God to assure his conscience , that he is the childe of God . God graunt you that inwarde testimonie , and the comfort of the same spirit , grounded vpon the Gospell , which they doe feele in themselues . Then will you neuer be so carefull for these outwarde shewes .

Papist . 15

SHew me that the church which ought to be a Christian mans stay in troubles ▪ and tempests of doctrine , might become so hidden , or so close , that no man could finde her , or so hartlesse that she coulde succour no man , nor instruct anie man in h● doubte of conscience or distresse in faith Proue me that there may be such a decay ● Goddes spirit , truth , and churche : And I recant .

Answeare . 15

IT seemeth that you are harping alwaie● vppon one string , but if you woulde dil●gently waie with your selfe the frailtie man , who is dailie slipping away from d●tifull obedience towardes God , and consider what bridles and bittes God hath ordained to pull him backe from the libertie of sinne , & to preserue him from daungers : You shal finde other staies to grounde mans faith , and settle his conscience , then anie such outwarde shewe of a visible Church , as you imagin . The ground worke , and foundation of faith , and the staie , and buttresse of mans conscience are the holie scriptures , which Dauid the blessed Prophet calleth the Mountaines , vnto which the faithful Psalm. 121. 1 shoulde lift vp their eyes , which are the onely comforte to them in their troubles . Ioh. 5. 39. Christ exhorteth vs To searche the scriptures , for they do beare witnes of him , 1. Cor. 1. who is our peace our iustification our sanctification , & our redemption . The Apostle Rom. 1. 16. assureth , vs That the scriptures are the power of god vnto saluation , to as many as beleeue , whether they be Iewes , or Gentils . What need we any further proofe to teach vs , that faith is staied vpon the scriptures , then that which is spoken by Paule Rom , 10. 17. the Apostle ▪ Faith ( saith he ) commeth of hearing , and hearing by the worde of God . Howe shall we knowe God ▪ Howe shall we knowe Christ ? How shal we know Gods spirit , howe shall wee discerne true faith from a fonde opinion , but onely by the scriptures . Faith ( as Saint ) Augustine affirmeth ) doth stagger , if the aucthority of gods scriptures do faile . True faith , true knowledge , and a right conscience , are grounded vpon the worde of God . Constantine that worthie Emperour Tripartit . His . lib. 2. Cap. 5. spake openly in the Nicene Councel to the like effecte : The writinges ( saith he ) of the Euangelistes , and Apostles , and the oracles of the auncient Prophets , do instruct vs plainely , what we ought to vnderstande and beleue of Gods will and 1. Tim. 3. 17. pleasure : and therfore all contention set aparte , let vs seeke the solution of those thinges , which bee propounded out of the scriptures of God : which by the testimonie of the holy Ghost be able to instruct vnto all good workes . The doctrine of the scriptures teacheth especiallie these foure principles : Knowledge , Faith , Godlines , & Iustice true braunches of a christian mans life . It is the parte of euerie Christian , to learne to knowe God , the Creatour and maker of all thinges , to knowe Christ the the redemer of mankinde , to knowe the holie Ghost the spirit of sanctification , & what benefits he hath , ond doth receiue by these ●hree persons , vnited in one Godhead : which ●noweledge the wise man calleth , Perfect Sapi. 15. 3. righteousnes , and the roote of immoralitie . Also our Sauiour Christ saith , That ●his is eternall life , that they know thee , ●he onely true GOD , and Iesus Christ Iohn . 17. 3. whom thou hast sent . Man created according to gods Image , may not be like the Psal. 32. 9. Horse & Mule , in whom there is no vnderstanding , or to bee such as God by the Esai . 1 , 3. Prophet complaineth vpon , That the oxe knoweth his owner , & the Asse his ma●ters cribb : But Israel hath not knowne , ●ny people hath no vnderstanding . It behoueth him to beleue , in these three persons , and all thinges , which he knoweth out of gods booke . It is his part , and duty moreouer , to practise pietie and godlinesse tow●rdes God , iustice and vprigh dealing towardes man . But I knowe what you ●hoote at : Verely to haue vs to beleue , and ●o stay our selues vpon the aucthoritie of your Church of Rome , and the vnwritten ●erities of the same Church . Because the true Church of God , hath not alwaies appeared to the view of the whole worlde in outwarde pompe or shewe : Therefore your indeuour to perswade ( yet I trust in vaine ) that man doubtfull in conscience and wauering in faith , coulde receiue no comfort by that close , inuisible , and hartles Church , as you call it . I haue proued before , that God hath raised vp in all ages , since the beginninge of the worlde , such as haue giuen a testimonie of their zeale , and true religion , vnto the worlde . You must not limit , and appointe God his Church , or vpon whom , hee shall power out his graces , or in what measure he shall bestow his spirite . God by the ministerie of his woorde doeth cure and heale suche as be broken in heart , geueth medicine to heale their sickenesse , maketh strong the weake faith , Psal. 147. 3 and doth comforte the feeble minde of man by his holie spirite . Gods spirite cannot decay , or be of lesse power , or Gods churche and spouse lesse honourable , albeit there were but one simple man in the vniuersall worlde , to mans iudgement , which doeth imbrace the trueth of God . Though Abell was but one , thoughe Elias in his time was but one , Noah and his housholde but a small number , Christe our Sauiour and his simple Fishermen his Apostles , men of no reputation , a very few in respect of all the world besides , had God therefore ●o Churche in these times ? Notwithstanding the law was corrupted before Christ , the true worshipp of God cleane extinguised , all the people geuen for the most part ●o idolatrie , yea , and no prophet to reproue the people from Malachie his time , vntill the comming of Christ , sauing Iohn Bap●iste , and he thirty yeares of age before hee preached : was there no churche or was Gods spirite decayed , and his trueth van●uished all this while ▪ God forbid , that ●ee shoulde bee so rashe in iudgement , as ●nce to thinke so . For Gods spirite , which ●s the conforter of the faithful , hath instruc●ed the churche of God , whether it hath appeared , or bene hidde , whether it hath beene close or open , whether in manie or ●n fewe euer since the beginning . So Christe Iesus hath promised that his spirit shoulde remaine with the children of God , though the wicked would not receiue him , because they see him not , neither knowe him . The comfortable Spirite of God doeth woorke saluation , ●oth adopt into Gods fauoure , doth puri●●e our heartes , doeth moue vs to all good Iohn . 14. 16. and godlie actions , doth comforte vs in al daungers , and confirmeth vs to expecte the comming of our sauiour Christ . Therfore to this spirite with the Father and the Sonne , be all honour laude and praise .

Papist . 16

SHewe me againe whether anie man can be saued , except he beleeue the catholike Church , and that is it , which in the face of all the world hath practised preaching the conuersion of nations to the obedience of the Gospell , that hath alwayes had the ministring of the Sacramentes the hearing of matters in controuersie the orderly succession of Bishoppes , vniformitie in solemne ceremonies , vnitie in faith , that hath in her selfe all holy functions of the spirite a woorking of miracles , remission of sinnes , the true sense , and interpretation of Gods word , that is beawtified with diuersitie of states , commended by Christ in the Gospell as with virgins , martirs , with confessors , and the rest , Prooue vnto me , that this is not the true Church , or that we be bounde to obey this Church and none other in all controuersies and doubts raised by the difficultie of the scripture , or by the vaine contention and pride of heresie : And I recant .

Answeare . 16

Suppose that there was neuer any man , which would looke to haue saluation by ●ods mercies in Christ , that euer denied ●e Church of God . So we beleeue that ●od hath had his Church euer since the beginning , which Church is the Company ● the faithfull dispersed through out the ●ce of the whole earth , which church is the ●ouse of Christ , builded vppon the doctrine ● the Apostles , and Prophets , Christ him ●fe beeing the heade corner stone . Yet ●e vtterly denye your Church of Rome to ● this true Church of God . The reasons ●d causes , why we will not close handes , ● agree with your Church be these : First , ●ur Church dooth refuse Christ Iesus to ● her head in that she setteth vp her Pope ● be her head , wherin she wil be gouerned ● all things , euen against gods holy word : ●erefore your Church is not of God . That ●hrist is the heade of the true church , not Ephes. 2. 22. ● but the spirit of God testifieth , that God ●ath appointed Christ ouer all things , ● be the head to the Church , which is ●s body : And again , The husband is the Ephes. 5. 23. ●yues head , euen as Christ is the heade ●f the Church , and he is the same , which ●eueth saluation vnto his body . Your church appointeth otherwaies to be saued by , then onely Christes death and passion yea , doth persecute Christ in his members taketh away the key of knowledge , whi● is the woorde of God from Gods people for that ye wil not suffer them to haue it ● their knowne tongue : you feede them n● with the sweete pastures of the holy scriptures , but with the dregges of your blind Ceremonies , and vayne traditions : yo● teach them to pray in a straunge languag● to woorship the creature , in steede ● the Creator : you mixe the woorde of Go● with your owne deuises , not to the benefite of Gods people , but to get mony , an● to enrich your selues , with the spoile ● their soules , You sett out all your practises ( as you call them ) to sale : For of you● church it is saide : Omnia Romae vaenalia● Baptist Manttan . All thinges are to bee had for monye a● Rome . The Poet saith , That Temple● Priestes , altars , sacrifices , crownes , fier● Barnard . Clunacens . in Satyra . frankencense , yea heauen is to be sold● and God him selfe . But you giue smal● credit vnto this author : Will you hear● what one of your approoued doctors saith Roma dat omnbus , omnia dantibus Decretale . omnia , Romae cum praecio . Rome doth : ●iue to al men , which doo giue all things ●o her ; all thinges are there to be had for ●ony at Rome . Your owne decretales ●y , That Rome is the head of coueteous●esse , and therefore all thinges are there ●o be solde . Your Popedome is in part ●ainteined , with the tribute of Curtesans ●r common stues , which is the rewarde of ●niquitie , Thus you forbid lawfull matri●onie , and mainteine open lecherie . And ●hereas you would haue the worlde to be●eeue that your Church of Rome hath alwayes had the due and right administrati●n of the Sacramentes , vnitie in faith , or●erly succession of Bishoppes euen from Peter , vniformitie in solempne ceremonies , ●ebating of matters in controuersie , all holy functions commended by Christ , as virgins , martirs , and confessors , and that all Churches are bound to obey the Church of Rome in all controuersies and doubtes , raysed by the difficulty of the scriptures , it shall appeare to all men , that these are but vaine ostentations , and shewes without truth . But you wil aske me , who shal iudge this matter ? for sometimes you stay vpon Counceles , sometimes vppon Fathers & sometimes vpon customes . Truly I would but wishe you , and euery indifferent reader , to examine whether your masse doe agree worde by worde with the last supper of our sauiour Christe . You haue culle● ●at. 26. 26. ●ark . 14. 24. ●uk. 22. 19. 1. Cor. 11. 23. foorth these woordes , Hoc est corpus meum : This is my bodie . And therevppo● haue framed your masse . The wordes be comfortable , if you would take them in a spirituall sense and meaning to signifie vnto vs the bodie of Christe , as the godlie Father Augustine doth expouude those same woordes : Non dubitauit dominus dicere , hoc est corpus meum , cum daret signum Aug. contra Adamantum . Ca. 12. corporis sui . Our Lord ( saieth hee ) doubted not to say , This is my bodie , when as he gaue a signe of his bodie Likewise Tertullian saith . Hoc est corpus Tertul. contra Marcion . lib. 4. meum , hoc est , figura corporis mei ▪ This is my bodie , that is to say , This is a figure of my body . But what shal I speak of al the abuses of your masse , as the consecration , the eleuation , the aduocation , the priuate receiuing the vnknowen tongue , the ministration in one kinde , keeping the ●uppe from the Laie people , making it a propiciatorie sacrifice , for the quicke and dead , which all are moste contrarie vnto Christe his institution , in his last supper . Furthermore , you haue corrupted Baptisme , and haue deuised fiue other Sacra●entes more then Christe hath ordained , ●d appointed in his worde .

Touhcing your succession of bishopes , ●d vnitie in religion , they are two things ●hich sound verie well together , If so bee ●u can proue your succession out of the ●orde of God , and your vnitie to agree ●ith Christs veritie , and Gospell . But is ●t this rather truely verified of your suc●ssion , which was vttered by Pope A●riā Adrian . 4. Succedimus non Petro in pascendo , ●d Romulo in parricidio . We succeade ●aith hee ) not Peter in feeding , but Ro●ulus in murdering . Succession of place ●uaileth not one strawe , if you cannot in ●ke maner proue the succession of Christ ●s true doctrine . The idolatrous priestes ● al ages , might verie wel haue boasted of ●ccession of place : And so might the Pha●sees , which bragged somuch of their tem●le , and of their succession , euen from Mo●es , and yet they were fouly fallen awaye ●rom the sincere & pure Law of God & wor●hipped god in vain , teaching the precepts , ●nd doctrine of men . You claime your suc●ession from Peter the blessed Apostle of Christ , for that ( as you saie ) he was Bishope of Rome : If nowe you can proue that your religion is the same , that Peter taught , written by the spirit of truth , for the comfort of the true Church of God , conteined in the newe testament of Christ : Then not onely I , but all which defende the same truth with me , will willingly ioyne handes with you . But and if you can not proue your doctrine by gods worde , you must then pardon vs , in that we wil not take your part against Christ . I woulde to God that you woulde vnfainedlie sect forthe to the vse of gods people , that religion , which the Apostle Paule , I will not say Peter ( for that there is no warrant in the scriptures for his beinge at anie time in Rome ) planted amongst the Romanes . Which faith , & true religion , the Apostle commendeth in them ▪ Then surely we woulde not onely goe , but Rom. 1. 8. runne with you to the building of gods temple , and woulde lay to our handes , and our harts . To this effect spaketh S. Ciprian , Cyprian . that alwaies wee builde our faith , succession , and whole religion , vpon a sure & stedfast foundation . If ( saith he ) The pipes of the cundit , which before ran with aboundaunce , happen to faile , doe wee not serche to the heade &c ▪ The priests of God ▪ ●●●ing gods commaundements , must doe the same , that if the truthe haue fainted or failed in any point , we turne to the very originall of our Lord , and to the traditions of the Gospell , and of the Apostles , that from thence the reason of our actions , or doings may arise , from whence the order it selfe , and originall first began . Thus wee may say of your vnitie in faith , your vniformi●ie in ceremonies , & your holy functions : If you can proue , & confirme these thinges by manifest places , of the holy scriptures , for my parte , I will recant , ●nd be of your religion . But though you , ●r an Angel would perswade me to the contrarie without the testimonie of Gods worde : God assisting me with his spirit , I will not beleue you . I marueile why you will seeme , to mainteine these matters , se●ng it is most repugnanc to the truth . The ●eade Capitaines of your religion , and Doctours of your Church do not agree in ●he vnitie of your religion , but do dis●ent in the principle pointes thereof . Some ●aye , That Christes naturall body , euen ●he same , which was borne of the vir●in Marie , is receiued in the Sacrament , ●ome denye ( saying ) that so soone as the forme of the bread , is grated with the teethe , straight way the body of Christ De conse. dist. 2. Tribas gradibus in glossa . is caught vp into Heauen . One sayth , That a mouse may eate the body of Christ : an other sayth , That a mouse can not eate it , and to dissolue these questions , the cheefe piller of your church , euen Petrus Lombardus saith : What the mouse Petrus Lombar . Sent. 4. dist. 13. doth take or what she eateth , God knoweth : I can not tell . And noting further the disagrement of your church men , he saith : Some men iudge thus , some say thus , some haue written thus , some graunt thus , some others haue taught thus , that the verie substance of the bread & wine remaine still . And if a question , saith he : were moued what maner of conuersion , or chaunge this is , whether in forme , or in substaunce , or in some other manner , Gabriel niel in can . lect. 40. I am not able to discusse . An other saith : How the body of Christ is there , whether it bee by chaunging of something into it , or Christes body beginne to bee there together with the bread , both the substance , and the accidents of the bread remaining still without chaunging , it is not founde exprest in the canon of the Bible . Innocentius the thirde Pope of that name , sayth : Innocent. 3. that there were some which sayde , that as after consecration there remayned the very accidentes , or formes of ●reade : so likewise the verie substance of the same breade remaineth still . Marke howe the pleas●●nt , and swete ●armonie , and concordaunce of your ●hurch of Rome , doeth agree and hange ●ogether , as concerning these weightie cau●s . I thinke you iudge this transubstan●ation , a matter of faith : You may see ●en , howe you agree , or rather disagree ● the vnitie of faith . Concerning your ●iformitie in your so manie superstitious ●uiteles and tedious Ceremonies and ●aditions of your owne inuentions , it ●ay easily be veiwed and seene by the ma●fold sectes of your religious stoare and ●ble of your heremites , your Ankers , ●d Ancresses , your recluses , your holy ●onkes of Benettes order , of Cluniacen●s order , of Lazarits order , of Saint ●ieronimus order , of Saint Gregories ●der , the order of the shadowed valley , of ●saphattes order , of the Humiliats or●r , of the Celestines order , of Gilber●nes order , of Iustinians order of the Charter house , Monks of the Templaries order , of the Iacobites order , the Monks of Mount Oliuete , Maries bretheren , the order of the Flagellatours , the Starred Monkes , some white , some black , some graie , some maled , so called for tha● they did weare male cotes next their skin , the order of Iesuites , and a greate company of orders besides these : Of Friers , som● were called crosse bearers , some Carmelit● or white Friers , some Minorities , or gre● Friers , some obseruant Friers , some Mendicant , or begging Friers , some Dominicke , some Franciscans , so called of Sain● Frances , whose coule , as Thomas Aquine Th●. Aquiz . faith , had power to remoue sinne I omitte your Channons , your Virgi● Nunnes of all sortes , but such as had n● oyle in their Lampes , your Nominals , your reals . I might make a long discourse here , in describinge the varietie of this religions crue and companie , not only in ceremoniall matters , but also in matters of faith and doctrine : But I trust all the world doth knowe , howe they haue bene bewitched with such kind of sorceries , and therefore I should but wast labour , and lose time . You aske further : Whether wee bee bounde to obey your Church of Rome , and none other in all controuesies and doubtes raised by the difficultie of the Scriptures , or by the vaine contention of heresies . Hereby you seeme to chalenge two thinges , not onely a prerogatiue , or preheminence aboue all other churches , but also the interpretation of the scriptures solely and wholy to appertaine vnto you . But I pray you tell me , from whence you had this priuiledge : I am sure you will say , that you receiued it of Peter the Apostle of Christ , because that herevpon you doe ground all your church and religion : For that ( as you say , ) Peter being the cheefe , and head of the Apostles , hauing the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen Math. 16. 19. committed vnto him , & being Bishop of Rome , it commeth by discent and orderly succession vnto all the Bishops of Rome . But this your supposition I vtterly denie : that either Peter was the cheife of the Apostles , or that the keyes were solely and only giuen vnto him by Christ : or that Peter euer was at Rome . That Peter was not the heade of the Apostles , it is playne by the testimonie of S. Paule , who saith , That he which was mightie by Peter in Gal. 2. 7. the Apostolike ouer the circumcision , was also mightie by him towardes the Gentils . And againe he saith , when Iames Cephas and Iohn knewe of the grace , that was giuen vnto me , whiche are compted to be pillers , they gaue to me , & to Barnabas the right hands of felowship , that we should preach vnto the Gentils , & they to the circumcision : And your ordinarie glose vpon this word saith , That Paule did not learne of others , as Glossa . ordinaria in Gal. ca. 2. of his superiours , but did conferre with them , as with his friendes , and equals . When the. 2. sonnes of Zebede , desired to be exalted , and that the other tenne disdayned therefore at them , our Sauiour Christ called them all before him saying : Ye knowe that the Lordes of the Gentils Math. 20. 25. haue dominion ouer them , & that they be great , & exercise auctoritie ouer them , but it shall not bee so among you , but whosoeuer will be great among you , let him bee your seruant : and whosoeuer will be chiefe among you , let him bee your minister . When the Apostles disputed Mar. 9. 35. by the way for superioritie , our Sauiour Christe saide : If anie man desire to be firste , or chiefe , the same shal be last of all , and seruaunt vnto all . And oftentimes 2. Cor. 6. 1. the Apostle Paule calleth all the Apostles , Fellowe laborers , Workers together , and Companions . That godly Cyprian . de si●plicitate prebatorum . father Cyprian sayth : Peter was euen the same , that the other Apostles were , indued with like fellowshippe , both in honour , and also in dignitie . And Chrisostome Chrisost. in Gal ▪ cap. 2. writinge vppon the Epistle to the Galathians , saieth : Paule had no neede of Peter , neither did he lacke his consent , but was his fellowe companion in honour . Nowe for the keyes : you say that Christ gaue them onely vnto Peter . Math. 16. 29. When he said : Vnto thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen . First you must vnderstande , that the keyes , of which our sauiour Christ heare maketh mencion , are the worde , and scriptures of God : And so Saint Chrisostome doeth Chrisost. in Mat. hom. 44. expounde these words saying .

Clauis est scientia scripturarum , per quam aperiturianua veritatis , The keye is the knowledge of the holy scriptures , by the which the gate of the trueth is opened . And these keyes were not proper to Peter , but common to all : For Saint Augustine saith , That when Christ did ●g . in Iohan. ●ct . 124. saie vnto Peter , I will giue vnto thee the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen , he meant his whole church : An other saith , The keye beareres , are the ministers of ●risost . Gods word , vnto whome is committed the teaching of the word , and the interpretation of the Scriptures . An other sayth : This saying , vnto thee I will giue ●igen . in Mat. ●ct . 1. the keyes of the kingdome of Heauen , is common also vnto other , & the words which followe , as spoken vnto Peter , are common to all . Thus you may see , that Peter neither hath any diuinitie aboue the rest , neither the keyes , which be the scriptures , do belonge more vnto him , then to the other Apostles , and faithfull ministers of Gods church . Nowe to proue that Peter was neuer at Rome : It appeareth euidently , that our sauiour Christ gaue Peter and the rest a charge , to tarry at Hierusalem Let. 1. 4. after his ascention , who continued there preaching the Gospel , insomuch that he conuerted at one sermon , three thousande Act. 2. 41. soules . Hee is put in prison , and beinge deliuered , was charged not to speak any more in the name of Iesus . Notwithstandinge , he with the rest did preach still , Act. 4. 17. and being put in prison againe , was deliuered by an Angell , who setteth open the prison doores . The Apostle Peter with Act. 5. 19. his fellowes , cease not to preach both dayly in the temple , and also in priuate houses . Paule is conuerted the first yeare after Christes ascention & receiueth the holy Act. 9. 17. Gal. 1. 18. Ghost : yet he remaineth at Damascus , and in the countreis adioyning , for the space of three yeares after his conuersion : in the fourthe yeare he cometh to Hierusalem to see Peter , where he aboade with him fifteene dayes . Peter then goeth to Ioppa , Act. 9. 34. where he healeth Aeneas , which had kept his bedde èight yeares , and was Act. 10. 44. sicke of the palsie : he rayseth Tabitha from death : Hee is sent for vnto Caesarea , where he conuerteth Cornelius . Peter returneth to Hierusalem , where hauing some contention with them of the circumcision , he sheweth the cause , why he went vnto the Gentills . Peter is put in Act. 11. 2. prison againe by Herodes commaundement , and sleeping betwene two souldiers , bound with two chaines , the Angel smot him on the side , and the chaines fel of , and Act. 12. 3. he was brought forth of prison , and entred into the citie , the iron gate opened to them by it owne accorde , and they came to Maries house . Shortly after he goeth againe to Caesaria , where he abideth . I ●ct . 12. 19. shewed before that in the fourth yeare after Paules conuersion , he came to Hierusalem to see Peter : Then fourteene Gal. 1. 18. yeares after that , he cometh to Hierusalem againe , where the Apostles helde Act. 15. 6. a Councell together , where Peter was present : where Iames , Peter , and Iohn gaue vnto Paule and Barnabas the right hands of felloweshippe , that they shoulde preache vnto the Gentills : And Peter , and his fellowes , vnto the Iewes . For Gal. 2. 9. Paule had saide before that the Gospell ouer the vncircumcision , which were the Gentilles was committed to him , as the Gospell ouer the Circumcision , which were in the Iewes , was committed vnto Peter . Then Paule goeth vnto Antioche ,

Whether Peter after a short time did also come , whome Paule rebuked before all men , because he caused the Gentills to Gal. 2. 7. 14. liue after the manner of the Iewes . These thinges should be done about nineteene yeares after Paule his conuersion : in which time it is manifest , that Peter had not bene at Rome . Whereby they bee deceaued whiche affirme , that Peter was Bishop of Rome fiue and twentie yeares , for that nowe he should haue bene in the middest of his Bishoprike , and that he could not after this time , be fiue and twentie yeares there , it is most plaine , for that he liued in all after Christes ascention , but three and thirtie yeares .

But nowe to proceede to my purpose , that is , to proue that Peter was neuer at Rome , by such coniecturall argumentes , as will hardly by the Scriptures bee disproued . About two and twentie yeares after , Paule his conuersion , vnderstanding Act. 18. 11. that Claudius the Emperour , had commaunded all the Iewes to depart from Rome , he being eighteene monethes together at Corinthe , afterwardes writeth this Epistle vnto the Romanes , in the which Epistle he saluteth Priscilla , and Aquilla , and the rest of the Congregation , Rom. 16. 3. being then in their priuate houses , and also saluted many other by name , and maketh no mention at all of Peter , therin . Who , if he had bene there , as you say that he was , he shoulde no doubt haue receiued salutations , as well as the rest of the faithfull . There fell some contention betwixt Paule and Barnabas at ct. 15. 39. Antioche , so that Paule tooke Siluanus otherwise called Sylas , with him , into all cities , where they had preached the woord ct. 16. 36. of the Lorde . Peter departed from Antioche ( where he had remained seuen yeares together ) into Assyria , yet further from Rome . Ye writeth an Epistle vnto the dispersed Iewes , and sendeth the same by Siluanus , sending salutations therin from the Church at Babylon , a famous citie in Assyria , 1. Pet. 5. 12. where Peter was then the Apostle of the Circumcision . But it may be , that you will say , that I mistake this place , because some writers doe interpret this Babylon to be Rome : and in deede , it is the onely place , wherevpon you do ground Peters being at Rome . But this doeth not sound with reason , neither is it likely , that a man shoulde vse the name of one cittie , when he subscribeth his letter , being written at an other citie , or to vse any Metamorphosis , in naming the citie , as though he were either ashamed of the place , or else that he would not haue had it knowne , where he had his aboade , & so he might better haue altogether omitted it , and not to haue named Babylon at all . But if you will nedes haue Babylon , to signify Rome in this place , sithe it agreeth neither with sense , reason , nor truth : then I besech you , let Rome bee that Babylon , of which the E●angelist Apoc. 14. 8. speaketh , Which is the whore , that hath made all nations , to drinke of ●he wine of the wrath of her fornication . Forasmuch as the sinnes , & vices which ●eined in Babylon are founde in Rome ● great aboundaunce as persecution of the ●rue Church of God , oppression and destruction of Gods people , confusion , super●ition , idolatry , and all kind of impietie , & ●ickednesse . But to my purpose : Christ commaunded Peter , and the other Apostles ( of which they had their name ) to goe ●nto all the world , and to preache the Gos●ell to all nations , and said that they should ●e his witnesses , both in Hierusalem , and ●n all Iudaea and in Samaria , and vnto the Act. 1. 8. ●ttermost part of the earth . By which it ●ppeareth , that if he had bene a resting Bishoppe , and tied vnto the seat of Rome fiue and twentie yeares ( as you ●ontruly affirme ) he had broken his mai●ters commaundement , and had answered , neither to his name , nor office . It may be that you will alledge the Histories against me , for the proofe of Peters Bishoprike : but I may truly answere you , that forsomuch as the Histories doe imitate , and followe one an others opinion , and in that the same were committed to printe verie lately in respect , and in such a time as no books might be printed , but suche as the Pope , and his cleargy would ratify and allowe : howe may it then seme straunge , albeit the truth of this matter agreeing with the scriptures were concealed ▪ For if they woulde haue suffered the truth of this cause to haue bene opened it woulde haue dashed altogether your Popes succession , and authoritie . But to conclude , you say that Peter was Bishop of Rome , at such time as Paule was first committed there vnto prison , which was two and thirtie yeares after his conuersion : but howe vntruly , let euery simple man iudge . For Paule complaineth , that at his comminge vnto Rome , when he was first called vnto his aunsweare , No man assisted him but all forsooke him . 2. Tim. 4. 16. No doubte if Peter had bene the Bishop of Rome , he would not haue forsak his fellow ●aule . Moreouer he exhorteth Timothy to ●ome vnto him , shewing that Demas ●ad forsaken him , and had embraced ●is present worlde , and was departed ●nto Thessalonica : That Crescens was ●one vnto Galatia , Titus vnto Dalma●a , 2. Tim. 4. 11. he addeth this clause , saying , Only ●uke is with mee , If Peter had beene ●en in Rome , Paule woulde not haue ●ed these woordes , Only Luke is with ●ee : For neither feare of imprisoment , ●either present death , would haue kept ●acke Peter , from Paules company . ●nd if Peter had bene in like authori●e , as you affirme his successours , the Pope nowe to bee in , hauing the neckes ●f all Emperours , Kinges , and Prin●es vnder his girdle , he woulde surely ●aue deuised , either some meanes , where●y Paule might haue bene deliuered ●om that filthy prison , or else woulde ●aue obteined , nay graunted him a par●on for his life . So that this can not be ●idden or cloaked , but that either you ●ust deny the Popes a●cthoritie , and ●premacie in that time , or else plain● , and freely graunt and confesse , that Peter was not then Bishoppe of Rome , as you may , I warrant you ( without any damage , or hurt to your soule ) agree vnto both . Thus much touching the prerogatiue of your Church . Now you say : Tha● the scriptures be difficult and hard , and therefore your church of Rome must haue the interpretation thereof . I haue shewed heretofore , that the Scriptures ● God be not hard , but very playne and easie , Psal. 19. That they are an vndefiled law , which conuerteth the soule , and giueth wi●dome to the simple . They bee a candle to Psal. 119. our feete , and a light to our steppes . The ophilact saith : That nothing can deceiu● Theophilact. de Lazaro . those , which do search Gods scriptures , for that they are the candle , whereby th● theefe is taken . An other auncient Do●tour saith : That all thinges are cleare , and plaine in Gods Scriptures , whatsoeue● Chrisost. in Thes. hom. 3. Clem●ns Alexan. thinges are necessarie , the same be manifest . Clemens Alexandrinus a grau● & wise man in an oration , that he made to the Gentils saith : Harken ye that be farre of , giue eare ye that bee neare , the woord of God is hidden from none , it is a common light , it doth lighten all men , there is no darknesse at all in the world . Yet this commeth into question , whether the interpretation of the scriptures do depend vppon the Churche of Rome , or no. Pigghius one of your owne doctors saith , That the scriptures ( as a man , both truly Pigghius Hierar . lib. 3. cap. 3. fol. 103. and merely saith ) are like a nose of waxe that easely suffereth it selfe to be drawen backewarde , and forward , and to be framed and fashioned this waye , and that way , and how soeuer you list . An other Lyra in . Deut , cap 17. faith of your Church of Rome : Although they tell thee , that thy ryght hand , is thy lefte hand , or that thy left hande , is thy right hand , yet such a sentence must bee holden for good . Thus you make the woord of God , which is easily and playne , to the vnderstanding of the simple , and a ●ertaine rule to direct the true Christian , ●ut a dumble schoolmaster , and deade letter , and that you must set the holy spirit of God ●o schoole , as though he had set downe the Scriptures , in a defuse and hard sense , and ●ere not able to expound and interpret his ●wn meaning Saint Paule saith , That we Gal. 1. 8. Aug. contra lite . r as Petilian . lib. must to not heare an Angel , if he bring a●ie thing contrarie to the Gospell . Augustine expounding these woordes saith , Whether it be of Christ , or of his church or of anie thing else whatsoeuer , pertaining either to our life , or to our faith , I wil not onely say , if I my self , but if an Angel from heauen shal teach vs otherwise , then we haue receiued in the bookes of the Lawe , and the Gospel , holde him accursed . An other godly father saith , As Origen in Mat. homel . 25. what Gold soeuer is without the Temple is not sanctified : so euery sense and interpretation , which is without the holy scripture , although vnto some it seeme woonderfull , yet it is not holy , because it is not conteined in the sense of the Scripture . Call to remembraunce , I praye you , how vntruely and cleane contrarie to the true meaning of the holy Ghost , your Church hath interpreted the Scriptures : As vpon these woordes , Fiet vnum ouile , et vnus Pastor : your Church giueth this exposition to these woordes , There Ioh. 10. 16. False interpretations . Apo. 5. 5. shal be one folde , and one shepheard : we may not vnderstand it of Christ , but of some other minister that ruleth in his roome . One saide vnto Pope Leo in the Councel holden at Lateran : Behold , the Lyon Concil. Lateran . sess. 6. of the tribe of Iuda is come , the roote of Dauid , &c. O most blessed Leo , wee haue wayted for thee to be our Sauiour . So it is likewise sayde , The Pope beeing the light is come into the worlde , and men haue loued the darkenesse more Ioh. 3. 19. then light , euery man that dooth euell hateth the light , that is to say , the Pope , and commeth not to the light : These woordes are to be vnderstoode of our sauiour Christ , who in deede is the Lyon of the Conc. Tride●● . tribe of Iuda , and commeth of the roote of Dauid : who is the lighte , that commeth into the world : and see how blasphemouslie your Church doth wrest these woordes , and applieth them vnto the Pope . Againe , Pope Sextus affirmeth , That hee can neuer Concil. Lib. Tom. 1. in purgatione Sixti be forgiuen , whosoeuer he be , which accuseth the Pope . And thus he reasoneth : He that sinneth against the holy Ghost , that is to say , Against the Pope , shall neuer be forgiuen , neither in this world , nor in the world to come : These Mat. woordes of the Scripture are thus to bee taken : That they shall neuer haue forgiuenes at Gods hands , which sinne against the holy Ghost : And the Pope wil haue them to be meant of him : I coulde rehearse infinite places to this same effecte and purpose : But let the indifferent reader iudge , by these fewe places , howe vntruely the church of Rome dooth interpret the holy scriptures . But let them beware betimes of the heauy iudgments of god . Wo be vnto them that cal good euel , & euel good : ●sal. 5. 20. darkenes , light , & light , darknes , sower , sweete , and sweete sower . What is this , but to diminish the authoritie of the heauenly woorde of God ? God dooth sharpely Apo. 22. 18. threaten , That if anie man shal adde vnto these thinges , GOD shall adde vnto him those plagues , that are written in this booke : & if anie man shal diminish of the wordes of the booke of this prophesie , God shall take away his parte out of the booke of life , & out of the holy citie , and from those things which are written in this boke . God graunt you true repentance , that you may imbrace Christ & his worde ; and escape these threatnings of God .

Papist . 17

MOreouer let anie man prooue vnto me , that the true & only church of god may at anie time be voyd of a spirit of falsly interpret any sentence of holy scripture , or induce any errours among the people , or approoue any vnprofitable or hurtful vsage amongst Christians , or that she suffreth any damnable abuse in her religion without open reprehension thereof prooue any of these proofes : And I recant .

Answeare . 17

I Haue prooued before at large , that the true Church of God is neuer without the comfort of gods spirit : which spirit doeth not visibly , and openly in anie forme or substance reueale and shewe him selfe , but inwardly ingraffe in the hartes of the elect , whether they be manie or fewe , the doctrine of the Gospell : doth increase true knoweledge in them : doth worke true sanctification & holinesse : and doth guide , & leade them in al good actions . I haue proued also that gods true church doth not corrupt , and falsly interpret the holy scriptures , as your Church of Rome doth , in wresting and wringing the sence of the scriptures , in comparing it to A nose of waxe , & a shipmans hose , or in calling it A dead and dumbe letter . But the true sheepe doth gladly here the voice of the shephearde : do acknowledge all thinges to be contained in the scripture necessary for mans saluation : doe confesse no hardnesse , or difficulty to be in the worde of God : But that the holie Ghost doth sufficiently expounde himselfe , and one place expresse another : The true Church doth not teach the people anie errours , anie vnwritten verities , any inuentions of her owne braine , or anie thing touching doctrine , or life , which shee findeth not written in the canonicall scriptures : doth not approue anie vnprofitable vsages , anie fond customes , or suffer anie damnable abuses in religion without open reprehension : dooth finde faulte , and doth openlie inueigh against all thinges , which be mixt with Gods true worshippe and seruice by the deuise of anie man whatsoeuer , and will alowe nothing to be vsed amongst gods people , but onely that which is warranted by the worde of God . In this your treatise , albeit you speake generallie , yet you haue a special meaning : But truly euen in that thing , wherewith you charge vs , you bee most giltie your selfe . For if those be worthily called Abuses in religion , which be matters of faith , and vsed in the Church , contrarie to the expresse worde of God ( so that Christ may be vmpeere ) lett al indifferent persons iudge , whether your Church of Rome , or we which professe the Gospell , doe more abuse true religion , and induce erours amongest the people . We say that wee must pray only vnto God , in the name of Christ , and vnto none other : your Church of Rome saith , That wee must pray vnto the saints departed , and vse them as meanes for vs vnto God . Neuerthelesse God saith , Call vpon mee Psa. 120. 1. in the day of trouble , & I wil heare thee . Dauid The Prophet saith , When I was in trouble I called vpon the Lord , and he heard me . And againe , he saith , I will confesse my sinnes vnto the Lorde , and Psa. 50. 15. so hee forgaue me the wickednesse of my sinne . Christ saith , Whatsoeuer you aske my Father in my name , hee will giue it you . Shewe me now by what aucthoritie of scripture , you can disprooue this , and prooue your inuocation of Saintes : we Ioh 16. 23. Luk. 5. 21. 1. Ioh. 1. 7. say , That it is god onely which forgiueth sinnes & that for Christes sake , whose blood doth purge vs from al sinne . You say that the Pope can forgiue sinne , and giue pardon for many hundred , yea thousand yeares , and that he can doo whatsoeuer God him selfe can doo . For in name , you giue him no lesse prerogatiue , Dominus Deus noster , Papa . Our Lord God , the Pope . We say that wee are iustified freely by Gods speciall grace , and mercie offered in Christ , and that faith is the instrument to apprehend this our iustification and so saith the Apostle : Ye are saued by Eph. 2. 8. grace , and that through faith , not of our selues , it is the gift of god , not of workes : least any man should reioyce : And againe Abraham beleeued God , and it was counted Rom. 4. 3. to him for righteousnesse . You say , that we are iustified by our owne works yea and that we haue workes more then wee neede , which you call woorkes of supererogation , or superfluous woorkes .

We say that we must confesse our sinnes onely vnto God , and so saith Dauid . I will ●sal. 32. 5. confesse , euen against mine owne selfe , mine vnrighteousnesse vnto the Lorde . You say , That wee muste confesse our sinnes to the prieste , and receiue absolution at his handes : And this you call Auricular confession : We say that the people of God , be they neuer so simple or vnlearned , ought to haue the vse of the scriptures of GOD in their knowne tongue , and both heare them , and reade them : So Christ biddeth al men . To search the scriptures . ●hn . 5. 39. Dauid sayeth . That they are a light to our feete . Saint Paule saith , That ●sal. 119. 105 whatsoeuer thinges are written they be ●om. 15. 4. written for our learnin , and eugery scripture sent from God is profitable to teach to instructe , to reprooue , and to exhort , that the man of God may be perfect prepared to euery good woorke . He saith 2. Tim. 3. 16. 17. further , Let the woord of God dwell in you aboundantly . Wherevppon Saint Col. 3. 16. Hierom. ad Col. 3. 16. Hierome noteth , That euen the Leye peoshoulde reade the Scriptures , and teache and admonish one an other : Your church saieth , That the vnlearned people ought not to haue the Scriptures in their vulgar toung , & that they are hard and full of difficulties . We say that no Images are to bee brought into the Temple of God , or to bee woorshipped : God hath forbidden it by Exod. 20. 4. expresse commaundementes , ●oth the making and the woorshipping . God curseth ●oth the maker thereof , the toole that ●eth it , and him also that worshippeth ●t . Christ saith , Thou shalt woorship the Sapi. 14. 8. ●ord thy God , and him onely shalt thou serue . The Apostle saith , that Idolaters , ●all haue no inheritance with Christ and Mat. 4. 10. Galat. 5. 21. Apoc 19. 10. ●ith God . The Angell of God refuseth ● be woorshipped , and saith moreouer , ●oorship God .

You say , that images are to bee made , at they oughte to bee placed in the tem●es , that they are to bee worshipped and that they are the Laie mens bookes , yea , and that not onely images of Saints departed , but also of Christe and of GOD himselfe : whiche image of God , you set foorth in the similitude of an old aged man , hauing a long gray beard and a hoare head , albeit God hath geuen a straighte charge Ioh. 1. 8. Aug. de fide et symbolo . cap. 7. to the contrarie . And Christe saith , that no man hath seene God at anie time , but the onely begotten sonne of God . Saint Augustine saith , That it is abhominable to set anie suche picture in the Churches of Christians . If a man had come into anie of your Churches in times past , and had vsed your images , as Epiphanius a godlie writer did vse the like long sithens , you woulde haue cursed him with Epipha . ad Iohana nem Heerosol . Apud Hiero. Tom. 2. bell , booke , and candell , and woulde haue burned him to ashes in the ende . I will repeate the wordes conteined in an Epistle , which Epiphanius did write vnto the Byshoppe of Hierusalem , whiche be these : I founde saith he a vaile hanging at the entrie of the Churche stained and painted , and hauing the Image as it were of Christe , or of some Saint , ( for whose picture it was in deede I do not remember ) Therefore when I sawe the image of a man to hang in the Churche of Christe , contrarie to the commaundement of the Scriptures , I toare it in sonder , and gaue councell to the wardens of the Churche , that they should winde and burie some poore bodie in it . &c. ● beseech you , charge the Priestes of that place , that they commaunde that suche ●ailes as be contrarie to our religion , be ●o more hanged vp in the Churche of Christe : it behoueth your reuerence to ●aue care hereof , that this superstition ●nmeete for the Church of Christ , and ●nmeete for the people , which be committed vnto you , be remoued . I might ●ande long in displaying and manifesting ●he erroures & superstitious trifles of your Churche of Rome , not onelie in secrete ●ractises and deuises , moste expressely a●ainst God and his truth : but also euen in matters of faith and in the principles of ●rue religion , how farre you disagree from Christe , and his Gospell , and from all ●odlie writers of auncient time . But these ●ay serue for a taste , sauing that I will ●peake one worde of your Popes greate ●hallenge . We say that all men of what calling soeuer they bee , oughte to yeeld their obedience vnto suche as are in aucthoritie . Math. 17. 27. Math. 22. 21. Rom. 13. 1. Christ our Sauiour paied tribute , he sayed , Giue vnto Caesar , that whiche is due vnto Caesar . Saint Paule sayeth , Let euery soule be subiect vnto the higher powers , for there is no power , but of GOD : whosoeuer therefore resisteth the power , resisteth th' ordinaunce of god . Saint Chrisostome vpon these wordes saieth , Chrisostom . in Rom. 13. Although thou be an Apostle , although thou be an Euangelist , although thou be a Prophete , or whosoeuer thou arte , for this subiection doth not ouerthrowe godlinesse : and he doeth not say simplie , let him obey , but let him be subiect . And Theophilacte writing vpon The ophilact in Rom. 13. the same place , sayeth , That the Apostle teacheth al men , whether he be a priest , or Monke , or Apostle , that he be subiect vnto Princes . Your Churche doeth challenge this aucthoritie from Peter , to be aboue Kinges and Emperoures , which also you say Peter receiued from Christe . For these be the verie words of Pope Nicholas : Dist. 22. Mediolanensis . Christ ( saieth he ) hath giuen to blessed Peter the righte , as well of the ●orldly , as also of the heauenly Em●yre . Wherevpon you grounde these ar●ments : De mai●ritate & obed. The Sonne is higher and grea●r then the Moone , Therefore the ●ope is higher , and greater then the ●mperour : The soule is aboue the bo●e , therefore the pope is aboue the ●mperour . Thus you take vpon you , not ●elie to haue the superioritie ouer Em●erours , but also to put them forth of their ●ates , and to remoue the Empire at your Auent. Adrian . 4. Anno. 1154. ●easure . And thus did Pope Adrian write ●to Frederike the Emperour , My seate ●saith he , ) is in the citie of Rome : The ●mperoures seate is at Acon in Arden , which is a Forest in Fraunce ) . Whatso●uer the Emperour hath , hee hath it of ●s , as pope Zacharias translated the Em●ire from Graecia into Germany : So ●ay we againe translate the same from ●e Germanes to the Greekes : Behold , ● is in our power , to bestowe the Em●ire , vpon whom we liste . But note how ●he writinges of Saint Peter doe agree ●ith this proud popish stile . Submit your 1. Pet. 2. 13. your selues ( saith Peter ) vnto all manner or●inaunces of man , for the Lords sake , Whether it be vnto the king , as vnto the chiefe : And to conclude he saieth . Honour Tertul. ad Scap. all men , Loue brotherly felowship feare God , honoure the king . Mark● also howe Tertullian a godlie Father agreeth with the Apostle against your sup●rioritie : We honour ( saith he ) the Emperoures maiestie , as a man next vnto GOD , for so is the Emperour greate● then all men , while he is lesse then onelie the true God . Of this minde wa● Pope Gregory , as hee sheweth in an Epistle , Grego . lib. 3. 〈◊〉 . 61. which he writeth vnto Mauritiu● the Emperour . Beholde ( saith he ) Thu● will Christe answeare you by me , bein● both his , and your most humble seruant● I haue committed my priests into you● handes , as for my parte , I beyng subiect vnto your Maiesties commaund●ment , haue caused your order to be sen● throughout diuerse parts of the world ▪ So that by the premisses , it plainel● appeareth , what dangerous errours , and corrupt doctrine moste repugnant to Christe , your Churche of Rome hath taught the people of God .

Papist . 18

LET anie Protestante in the whole worlde prooue vnto me , that their Churche coulde rightly be called Catholike , which was so particular , that ● man aliue coulde name a place , where ●y such churche was : or that it might bee ●lled holie , which had neither Baptisme , ●r anie other sacrament to sanctifie anie ● her felowes withall : or that it coulde bee ●e , which as it grewe vp in the worlde , was ●uided into so manie sundrie sectes ▪ or that ● might be called Apostolike , which coulde ●uer make an accompt by orderly successi● , from anie apostolike man : or that the se●ete , base , and disordered congregation was ●er of that maiestie , that it might require ●e obedience of all nations : or that it was ●er able to gather generall councels , or ex●cise discipline vpon offendours : or that ●hese titles proper by scripture and doctours ● the true church could euer be chalenged by ●ght to their congregation , I meane these ●itles following : Corpus Christi , the bodie of Christ : Sponsa Christi , the spouse of Christ : ●nicè dilecta Christo , the dearely beloued of Christ : Amica Christi , Christes louer : Do●us dei , Gods house : Columba speciosa , the beautifull Doue : Columna veritatis , th● piller of truth : Ciuitas Dei , the citie of God● Ciuitas super montem posita , a Citie set vpo● a hill : Hortus conclusus , a close garden Fons signatus , a fountaine sealed vp : Sponsa agnt , The spouse of the Lambe .

Answeare . 18

YOu doe v●ge often this Catholike Church , and doe seme as of right to challenge i● to be your Churche of Rome , but how vntruely , I haue partely touched before : This worde ( Catholike doth signifie vniuersall , as in deede the true church of God is vniuersally spread and scattered abroade in all coastes and countries of the worlde , and so doe di●erse good writers Aug. ad Seuerinum Epist. 170. speake of it . Saint Augustine sayeth , That the catholike Churche is dispearsed throughout the whole earth . And i● another place ( hee sayeth : ) That the Church is called Catholike , because she is vniuersally perfect and halteth in nothing , and is poured throughout the whole worlde . An other saith : That the Isichius . in Leuit. lib. 4. cap. 14. vniuersall Churche is Hierusalem , the citie of the liuing God , which comprehendeth the congregation of the electe and chosen , written in heauen . An other sayeth , That the churche is truely called catholike , which is separated by sincere , pure , and vnspotted communion or felowship , from all vnfaithful persons , and from their successours and companions . These thinges of duetie appertaine ●elasius ad An●● Augustum . vnto the Churche . First , that it is vniuersall , and therefore ( as I haue sayde before ) it is not limited , eyther to place , time , or person : Secondarily , that it is of ●he elect , whome God in his secrete and ●rcane knowledge hath sealed vnto life e●erlasting : Thirdly , that it hath no felow●hippe with the vnfaithfull , and with such ●s will not beleeue the trueth . Neuer●helesse in the visible churche , there be of ●ll sortes mixte together , both good and ●adde : beleeuers , and hypocrites : dar●ell , and pure wheate . But to answeare ●our interrogation : You woulde knowe , Howe the Protestantes churche , can be cal●d the true Catholike and Apostolike ●hurche ? And I woulde demaund the like ●f you : howe your Churche of Rome can ● knowne to be the true churche of God . ●ruly there is an vnfallible rule set down readie , howe the true Churche of God , may be knowne , and howe this controuersie may easily be decided . For if we will beleeue the holie Apostle of God : he telleth the Ephesians , That they are no more Ephes. 2. 19. straungers and Forrenners , but citizens with the sainctes , and of the howshould of God , and are built vppon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophetes , Iesus Christ himselfe being the chiefe corner stone , in whome all the building coupled together , groweth to an holy temple in the Lorde . So that you may see , that the true Church of God is discerned and knowen by the Scriptures . The true sheepe doe heare the voice of Christ , and will not heare a stranger . Iohn . 10. 27. And so the godly father Augustine saith , That in the scriptures wee learne● Aug. Epi. 166. Christ , in the Scriptures wee learne the Churche : Wherefore doe wee not then reteine in them , both Christe and his Church ? And writing against the Donatists , Aug. Tom. 7. con. Epist. Peulian . ca. 2. being notorious heretikes , he saith , Betwixt vs and you , this cometh in question : where the church is ? what shall wee doe nowe in this matter ▪ Shall wee seeke for the church in our owne words , or in the words of her heade , which is our Lorde Iesus Christ ? Aug. Tom. 7. c●● Petil. tra Epi. cap. 2. I thinke that wee ought to seeke it rather in his woords , who is the truth , and doth best of all knowe his owne body . So Chrisostome saith , That since the time that Heresies inuaded the church , there can bee no triall of true Christianitie , neither any other refuge of Christians , which woulde know the Chrisost. in Ma● . Hom. 49. true faith , but onely the scriptures of God , and therefore he which will know the true Church of God , howe shall he know it , but onely by the Scriptures ? Thus it appeareth , that the true Church of God dooth defend her selfe onely by the Scriptures and woord of God , which your Church of Rome doeth vtterly refuse , for that you boldly affirme , that the Scriptures haue not their strength , neither receiue their authoritie from God . But from the Church of Rome . Yea , moreouer you say , That the holy Church of Concil. Tom. 1. de primatu Rom. Eccle. Rome , hath power by a singular priuiledge graunted vnto her , to open , and to shut vp the gates of the Kingdome of heauen , from whom shee listeth , and that this power of binding and loosing , is no lesse in your church of Rome , then it is in Christ . But you will say , that I doe sclaunder you in saying , That you affirme the Scriptures of God , to haue their strength and authoritie from the church of Rome . Truly one of your owne writers hath these wordes , Who soeuer leaneth not ( sayth he ) to the doctrine of the Romaine church , and to Siluester Prieri . cont . Luther . the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome , as vnto the vnfallible rule of God , of which Doctrine the holy Scripture taketh her force , and authoritie , he is an heretike . He saith further , That the authoritie of the Romaine church , and of the Bishop of Rome , is greater then the authoritie of Gods word . An other saith : That this Nicholaus Cusa . de auctho . Eccle. ●t concil . supra & contra Scriptur . is the iudgment of all them , that thinke lightly , that ground the authhoritie and vnderstanding of the Scriptures , in the allowance of the Church , and not conrariwise , ●lay the foundation of the church in the authoritie of the scriptures . There be no commaundements of Christ , but such only as bee taken so , and holden by the Church : Therefore the scriptures followe the Church , but contrariewise , the Church followeth not the Scriptures . An other saith , That the Apostles haue written Albert. Pigghi . in controuers. de Ecclena . certaine things , not that their said writings should rule our faith or religion , but rather that they should bee vnder , and be ruled by our faith : the scriptures are dumbe iudges : the scriptures are like a nose of waxe . I might alledge many authorities out of your owne writers , which go about to extoll your church of Rome aboue God , and his holy worde : ●ut these may perswade all men , which be not wilfully blinded , how arrogantly and Luciferlike , you do preferre your Church , both contrarie to the manifest & expresse woorde of God , and also to the opinion , iudgement of the Godly learned fathers , whose authorities I haue cited . But let the indifferent reader iudge , whether our church ( which groundeth her selfe wholy & onely vpon the heauenly Scriptures , and submitteth her selfe to the spirit of God , as the true interpreter of the same ; hearkeneth onely vnto the voyce of her Pastor Christ , and acknowlegeth him onely to bee her heade , according as we are taught by the scriptures ) be the true Church of God , the Catholik & Apostolike church : or your church of Rome , which innketh her selfe equal with god , & vsurpeth authoritie aboue his most holy woord , will not haue Christ , but the Pope her heade , which wil be iudge in all causes , whether Christ will or no , which mainteineth , no not in one point , the Apostolike doctrine , and faith , but doeth persecute euen vnto death , the true professors of the same . Whereas you doo aske , Howe our Church can be one , For that ( as you say ) it is deuided into so many sectes ? I haue shewed before that we doo not disagree , now at this day in matters of faith and true religion , as your Church of Rome dooth in matters of great weight and importance . It hath beene a vulgar , and common prouerbe of long time vsed , that the Diuell will haue his Chappell near● Gods Church . Among the olde Prophets was some one Balaam , or other . In the small number which accompanied our Sauiour Christ , was one Iudas , & many carnal Capernaites , which sought rather their belly , then the aduauncement of Gods truth , which pretended a zeale , and followed Christ , yet depended vppon olde customes and ceremoniall traditions , and helde other Math. 24. 24. fond opinions . Among the true Apostles , were false Apostles , which ( though not altogether , yet in some parte ) preached either circumcision , or iustification by woorkes , repugnant to the doctrine of the true Apostles , as you doo . Our Sauiour truely prophesied , That there shoulde arise false Christes , and false Prophets Saint Paule 1. Cor. 11. 19. saith , yet in an other sence , There must be heresies euen among you , that they which are approoued among you , might bee knowne . By which he noteth , that Gods Church is not onely subiect to striffe and dissention , as touching orders and maners , but also to heresies , as touching doctrine . We doo not stand so stifely vppon our reputation , but doe confesse , that as we are men , so we may erre . But wee trye our iudgementes and opinions by the touchstone of Gods woord , not respecting the person , but the doctrine which we allow of , so farre , as the holy scriptures do approoue the same , in which is no errour at all . We doe not denie , but that there may be amongest vs some carnall & fleshly Gospellers : some Epicures , and Athistes : some giuen to mainteine vnprofitable , and straunge opinions , as there are in your Church of Rome . The like there were in the Apostles time , some which helde of Paule , some of Apollo , some of Peter , yea some which seemed to haue beene of the number of the faithfull , because they occupied a place in the Church , of whom the Apostle speaketh , saying : Babes it is the last time , and as 1. Iohn . 218. you haue hearde that Antichrist shall come , euen nowe are there many Antichristes , whereby we knowe that it is the last time : they went out from vs , but they were not of vs , for if they had bene of vs , they would haue continued with vs . It is manifest , that in the primitiue church therewere false brethren , which were Aug. Tom. 6. in Ser. contra . Arriano● . cloaked with the name of Christianitie . Arrius that damnable heretik & the fauourers of his sect , which deny Christ to be God , bosted themselues , That they only were Catholikes , and called others , which mainteined the truth against them , sometimes Ambrosians , and sometimes Athanasians : as you doo call vs , nowe Lutherans , nowe Caluinists , nowe Zwinglians . Ebion that Heretike , who affirmed Christ to be onely man , and saith that the obseruation of the Lawe was very necessarie to saluation , & would needes be called a Christian .

All other heretikes , which were many in the florishing time of the church ( as appeareth by the stories ) bragged , that they held the true faith : & that they were the true Church . Shal we therfore conclude , & say , that the Prophets , the Apostles , the godly Christians and fathers of the primitiue Church were not of the true Church of God , for that in their times there were manie sectes , which couered them selues with the cloake & collour of true religion ? Saint Paule forseing , through Gods spirite , what woulde come , gaue this watchworde Colos. 2. 8. to the Colosians , To beware least that anie shoulde goe about to spoyle them through phylosophie , and vaine deceit , through the traditions of men , acording to the rudiments of the world , and not after Christ . He also forwarneth 2. Thes. 2. 4. the Thessalonians , that Antichrist the sonne of perdicion shall sitt as God , in the temple of God , shewing him selfe to be God . It is wonderfull to see howe you are blinded , seing you stumble at a strawe , and doe leape ouer a bloke : You strain at a gnat , and doe swallow a Camel , You see a moath in another mans eye , and perceiue not the beame , which is in your owne eye : You are most giltie your selues in that , which you would haue to be a notorious crime in others . For you agree not in the principall poyntes of religion , as I haue noted before : but in that you demaund , Whether our Churche was euer of that maiestie , that it might require the obedience of all nations , or gather generall councelles , and howe the titles which you set foorth by name , can bee applied to our Church ? I saie that our Church hath , and doth enioy such priuiledges and preheminence , as is limited vnto hir by the worde of God : Neuerthelesse we doe not challenge anie such authoritie , to the obedience of all nations vnto our Church , but doe pray in the name of Christ , vnto the Lorde of Heauen and earth , to poure forth the aboundaunce of his spirit , vpon all Iewes , Turkes , Infidels , and Papists , that they may imbrace the glad tidinges of the Gospell , and become obedient children vnto the maiestie of almightie God . Where wee haue peculiar charge in our seuerall congregations , wee exhorte with Iohn Math. 3. 2. Baptist , all men to repentaunce : Wee say with the Apostle , That wee are messengers from Christ , to moue the people to 2. Cor. 5. 20. be reconciled vnto God , that we are fe●owe laborers , to beseech them not to receiue the grace of God in vaine , shew●ng that nowe is the accepted time , and 2. Cor. 6. 1. the daye of saluation , in the whiche , the God of all mercies doth offer them ●ardon of their sinnes , for Christes sake , ●hough they be neuer so manie in num●er , if they wil repent & beleeue the gos●el . We haue no warrant in Gods woorde ● which ought to be the square , or rule to ●●re●t all Christians ) to claime , or chaleng ●nie such authoritie ouer other nations . Christ our sauiour doth denie that superi●ritie vnto the Apostles , saying , It shall Math. 20. 26. ●ot be so amonge you . In deede your Church of Rome doth vsurp this , that shee ●s aboue all other Churches , that all nati●ns doe owe their obedience vnto hir , and ●hat all Kinges and Emperours doe owe ●heir subiection vnto hir , as in Peters right ●ou haue sought , and doe seeke the same su●eriority , as appeareth by the sayinge of Frederike the Emperour , vnto Pope Alexander the thirde , most tyrannically treading vpon him , and setting his foote in his neck : Non tibi , sed Petro : This submission ( saith the Emperour ) belongeth not to thee , but to Peter . To whom the Pope answered , Etmihi , & Petro : It is both due vnto me , & to Peter . The like proud behauiour shewed Pope Hildebrand vnto Henrie the fourth Emperoure , who caused him , his wife , and his sonne to attende and wayte three dayes , & three nights barefoote , and barelegged before his pallace at Canntium , or he would vouchsafe to speake with him . But to let these thinges passe , of which like examples the histories be plentilull , which doe argue the ambition and tyrannie of your church : As you haue made oftentimes this offer , That if such & suche thinges coulde be prooued , you would recant : So say I againe vnto : you , if you be willing to play the Proctoures part in the behalfe of your church of Rome , and proue these high dignities , which shee doeth challenge , by the worde of God , not onely I , but manie thousandes will ioyne handes with your church . But you shall neuer bee able to proue by the scriptures , that God either in the olde or newe Testament ●ath promised to establishe anie suche one ●hurche in earth , which shoulde appeare in ●utwarde pompe and externall shewe , to ●e viewe of the whole worlde , continually ● endure by orderly succession of anie Apo●olike man in one place , or to be of suche ●uthoritie & maiestie in earth , that it might ●equire the obedience of all nations , sum●oning and citing them , vpon paine of ex●mmunication , to appeare at her generall ●essions , or Councelles called by her : Nay ●ther the churche of God , as I haue decla●d before , hath beene for the most part sub●ct to persecutions , & of smal countenance ● the eyes of man , and so small , that often●mes shee coulde not bee seene , as in Elias is time it playnely appeareth , as also in ●e time , in which our sauiour Christ was ●uersant here on earth . But of this matter , ● haue spoken at large in other places . You ●eme to take it as graunted to you , that you ●aue authoritie to call all nations to your ●uncells : yet it appeareth by the ecclesi●ticall histories , that you haue no such pri●ledge or commission , but that of right it apperteineth to the temporall magistrate . Constantine the great being Emperour ouer all the world did call , and summon generall councell● for the establishing of true religion , without the consent of the Pope , For so a good writer affirmeth : Constantine Euseb. in vita Constant . oratio . 3. ( saith he ) as if he had bene a common Bishope appointed by God , called together councels of gods ministers , and disdained not himselfe to sitt in the middest of them , & to be partaker of their doings . Your owne Popes in like manner doe confesse Leo. ad Theodo . Epist. 24. this : For Pope Leo writing vnto Theodosius the Emperoure , hath these woordes : All our Churche ( sayeth he , ) and our Priestes most humblie beseech your maiestie , with sobbes and teares , that you will commaund a generall concell to be holden within Italie . I do not deny but that your Bishopps of Rome traueled earnestly , that no councell shoulde be called without their consentes , and to haue this prerogatiue of calling councells : but yet they coulde neuer bring it to passe , vntill they had gotten the Emperoures heads vnder their gyrdelles , and that appeareth by the saying of Pope Pius . 2. otherwise called Aeneas Syluius who ●doeth also note the inconueniencie , whiche woulde insue thereof : By these authorities ( saith hee ) they thinke them selues armed , that say Aeneas Sylu. de concil . Basilien . lib. 1. no councell may be kept , without the consent of the Pope : Whose iudgement , if it should stand as they woulde haue it , would drawe with it the decaye and ruine of the Church : for what remedie were there then , if the Pope him selfe were vicious , destroyed soules , ouerthrewe the people with euell examples , taught doctrine contrarie to the faith , and filled his subiects full of heresies ▪ should we suffer all to goe to the Diu●ll ▪ Verely when I reade the olde ●tories , and consider the Actes of the Apo●les , I finde no such order in those dayes , ●hat only the Pope should summon councels . And afterwardes in the time of Constan●tine the greate , and of other Emperoures , when councells should be called , there was ●o greate account made of the Popes ●onsent . Moreouer he saith , that before ●he councell of Nice , eche Bishope liued se●erally , and little regard was then had to ●he Church of Rome . But concerning ●hefe titles , wherewith the woord of God dooth beautifie , & adorneth the true Church of God calling her , The spouse of Christ , the dearelie beloued of Christ , the citie of God , &c. Let the scriptures & Gospel of Christ it selfe conteined in the olde & newe Testament be iudge in this matter , whether these titles doo belong and appertaine to your Church ; or vnto ours . Our Church affirmeth Christ Iesus onely to be the heade of the Church his Spouse : your Churche dooth affirme , the Pope to be her head : our Church dooth not mainteine any doctrine , Sacrament , or any tradition , which is not grounded vppon the doctrine of Christ , and expresly set foorth in the holy Byble : your Church dependeth vppon the decrees of man , dooth teache such ecclesiasticall ordinances ●chi . in Enchi . and constitutions , to be of equall authoritie with the Scriptures of God : setteth foorth fiue Sacramentes more then euer Christ ordeined , and corrupteth the other two Sacramentes onely appointed by Christ : for these fiue Sacramentes deuised by your church of Rome , were brought into England by Otho the Cardinall , in Otho Cardinal . Anno. 1236. the raigne of King Henrie the third , in the yeare of our Lord. 1236. To conclude , our Church dooth feede Christes people , and flocke with the Scriptures of God onely , which are called by Godly writers and Fathers , the Pastures for the Children of God to feede in : it dooth teache Christ onely to be our Sauiour , And no name to Act. 4. 12. be giuen vnto men vnder heauen , in which we may be saued , but onely the name of the onely begotten sonne of God , Iesus Christ : & that his blood doth purge vs from all sinne . Your Church of Rome 1. Iohn . 1. 9. dooth tell the people , that they must seeke their saluation in Trentalles of Masses , in pardons , in their owne woorkes , in the bloode of Hales , in the blood of Thomas , For these be your owne wordes :

Tu per Thomae Sanguinem , quem pro te impendit : Fac nos coelum scandere , quò Thomas ascendit .

Which is as much to say , O as , Christ make thou vs , euen for the bloode of Thomas , whiche he shed for thy sake , to climbe vp into heauen , whether Thomas is ascended . Seeing therefore that your Church dooth not vpholde and manteine the truth of God , but hir owne inuentions and deuises , howe can your Church be called The piller of truth ? Howe can your Church be called the Citie of God , or you Citizens of God , sith that you wil not submit your selues vnto the Lawes of God , set forth by his worde ? Howe can your church be called , The spouse of Christ , seing as a bloodie mother you deuide the child , and do persecute and crucifie a freshe Christe in his members . These titles alledged by you , ( are no doubt ) to bee vnderstanded of the inuisible Church of God , whiche is the number of Goddes electe and faithfull children , scattered abroade throughout the whole worlde : neither can they be applied vnto your church of Rome , whiche is no parte , or parcell of Goddes Church , for that ( as I haue saide before ) she neither holdeth the true doctrine of the Gospell , nor heareth the voyce of the onely begotten sonne of God , the true and onely pastor and teacher , as hee himselfe sayth , Iohn . 10. 27. My sheepe doe heare my voyce , and do follow me : neither ministreth the Sacramentes truely , according to the institution of Christ : neither obserueth the voyce in veritie , powred foorth by the spirit of God into the heartes of the faithfull , & true ●embers of Christ : neither doeth im●race the true Catholike and Apostolike ●aith , as necessarily the true church of God ●oth , with full consent and agreement . Wherefore to conclude this my answeare , I wishe you not to claime and chalenge ●hese glorious names and titles vnto ●oure Churche , vnlesse you were able to ●o proue the same by the holy word of God : ●or the trueth of Gods Gospell shall pre●ayle , will you , nill you , yea in spite of Mahomete , and Antichrist your Pope , ●ud the more that you shall spurne agaynst ● , the greater harme shall redownd to your ●lues . Though I am vnknowen vnto you , ●et this good will I doe beare you , that I ●oste heartily doe pray vnto God for you , ●hat your eyes may be opened , to vnder●ande what his will is , set foorth in his ●oorde , and knowing the same , that you ●ay imploy all your studie , to aduaunce ●nd extoll the glorie of God : whiche God graunte you for his Christes sake : To whom with the holie spirit , be all honour and glorie , now & for euer .

Amen .