Mr D. Sutcliffes charge .

In the former kinde is his charge of Conspiracie with Hacket and Copinger to a mutuall communication with Copinger by woord , writing and consenting , Fol. 10. p. 2. and fol. 44 p. 2. And that he did not disswade him , but rather willed him that he should attempt nothing but by advise , and that he should bee wise and circumspect : which woordes he setteth downe in a diuers letter from the letter of his own booke : as if they were woordes of a letter of Thomas Cartwrightes to Copinger , fol. 48. p. 2.

T'hanswere of Thomas Cartwright .

Hacket was a man whom , to my knowledge , I neuer saw : so was Arthington , vntill he was freed of his prison he endured for his misdemeanor : with Copinger I had acquaintance vpon occasion of Mr Ambrose Copinger , chief officer to the right Honorable , th' Earle of Warwike ; For , comming to his house necessarily for the setling of th' estate of th' Hospital of the right Honorable th' Earle of Leicester : there I mette with this Copinger sundry times some three or foure yeares before his lewed practise brake foorth : with the former two I had neuer conference either by Letter or otherwise by message sent from them to me , or from me to them . Betweene Copinger and me touching this matter I am charged with , this onely passed which followeth : Whilest I was in prison in the Fleere , Mr Rafe Hockenhull propounded vnto me , as things he desired to be resolued of in the behaulf of one of his acquaintance , whether there were anie Apostles , Prophetes and Euangelistes in these daies , I answered that those callings ceased many hundred yeares agoe , and as no Apostles were euer hereafter to be looked for , so th' other two were not to be expected vnlesse God in th' vtter waste and desolation of the Church did extraordinarily raise them vp for th' erection of a church out of the dust : And therefore that there was no vse of such men amongst vs . To a second question , how and by what markes such a one as thought him self one of these , might in deed know whether he were so or not , I answered that this doubting of the matter , was an evident and an invincible argument that he was none : For that such as haue a calling immediatly from God , are not to aske counsell of fleash and bloud ; as those which haue th' vnboubted testimony of Gods spirit vnto their spirites that they are called of him . Wherevpon Mr Hockenhull telling me that it was Copinger which had entred into such conceite of him selfe : I desired him to deale with him for diswading him from such frantike opinions , which he told me he did accordingly . And afterwardes , some while before his lewed practise brake foorth , he admonished some of his kindred before Copinger him selfe , that if he belonged to him , he that day before the morrow would make him fast either in Bridwell or Bedlem . After some space of the demaund of these questions , he sent by Mr Hockenhull to entreate that he might come to me into the Fleete : For that if he might so doe , he did not doubt but he would shew me such evident tokens of an extraordinarie callinge , as I should haue no power to deny it , and that he would for further securitie in this matter , come wayting vpon Mr Hockenhull in a blewe coate . To whom I returned this answere , that if he came to me , I would not once so much as speake with him : For that his disease was of that kinde as needed some other remedie then disputation . And if he desired to be resolued of the trueth in that matter , there were other both for their learning & libertie more fitte to deale with him then I was . Not long after this , the same Mr Hockenhull tolde me that because Copinger might not come vnto me , he had written me a letter , which he had sent by him , to whom I saied , I would receiue none from him , and so returned his letter without so much as once taking it into my hand or looking vpon the superscription : Whereby may appeare how vntrue it is that I and Copinger had mutuall conference by word and letters , to whom ( in my knowledge ) I neuer wrote in my life : assured I am , neuer since he entred into this wretched practise . After this I heard of Mr Hockenhull , that Copinger would informe her Maiestie of certeine horrible treasons committed by personages of high calling , both in Church and common wealth : which as I alwaies esteemed vaine , knowing the broken witte of the man , so , when by report I vnderstoode the particulers thereof ( which argued one bereaued of common sense ) I desired old Mr Michil that if Copinger came to the right Honorable my very good Ladie the Countesse of Warwicke for her mediation vnto her excellent Maiestie for such matters as he would deliuer : He would signifie that , although I knew her wisedome otherwise able easelie without anie writing to sound his folly , yet that it would please her to take this notice of me ( which otherwise she might be ignoraunt of ) that he was ouertaken with straunge conceites of some extraordinarie calling and giftes he was farthest from . Againe this whole matter of Hackets Conspiracie , being by commission to certeine of her Maiesties most honorable Counsel and other wise and graue men commended to be examined : I leaue it to be considered whether Mr D. Sutcliffe bee so quicke sighted as by him selfe and his Inquisitours , hauing ( for anie thing I can learne ) but the same groundes her Maiesties Commissioners had , to finde out that which men of so great wisedome and circumspection , with so great meanes as they had of commaundement ouer all that might bring anie light vnto that matter , could not finde out : And whether this dealing of his bee not some charge of want in them either of wisedome in not finding it out , or of fidelitie in not once calling me to th' answere of it . Moreouer , Arthington being compacte in this conspiracie with Hacket and Copinger , if there were anie hande of mine in that wretched practise , in all likelihoode Arthington must needes be priuie vnto it : he is a man aliue let him be examined , and a man also whom I neuer spake too , nor caused to be spoken with in my life . His reasons to induce his reader to thinke his accusations to be true are ( so farre as I remember ) these : The first is touching our mutuall conference by letters , which is alreadie aunswered : Another , my concurrance with Copinger in fasting . I confesse that , as there was iust cause of humbling my self in fasting , in feeling the displeasure of her excellent Maiestie and others in great authoritie vnder her , so did I sometimes bestowe my selfe in that exercise . But that I did it the same day that Copinger and his complices , or at the least with anie notice either giuen to him of my fasting , or receiued from him of his fasting , I vtterly denie as a thing most vntrue . A third reason is , that Hacket and his fellowes commended me at the crosse in Cheape aboue the writers of our age : I acknowledge their great follie in that commendation or madnesse rather , who am scarce woorthie to beare the bookes after many that haue liued , and yet doo liue in this age , yea & in this Church of our lande . But Mr D. Sut. report herein is not vpright , for although I was not present , yet I heard of diuers ( and therein referre my selfe to the remembrance of those that were standers by ) that their excessiue praise was of Thomas Cortwright , that had bene sometimes when he first wrote in the cause of the Discipline of the Church , but not of him as he now was , for that ( as was saied ) he was faine away from his former loue . Lastly , that Mr Cartwright ( saieth he ) was a medler in those matters and well vnderstood them , it appeareth by a letter of Io. Bowmans ( seruant in Oundle ) to Wigginton : I desire you ( saieth he ) to send me the copye of a writing which you had from Mr Cartwright vpon the Court matters , when goodman Hacket was with you the first time . Mr Wigginton , I am assured , neuer receiued from me any writing during the time of my imprisonment or afterwardes , or at any time of my life , to my best remembrance , whereof let Mr Wigginton that liueth be examined . But if he had receiued a writing of the court matters in the starre Chamber , how thereof it can be concluded that I was a medler in this matter , let all men iudge , for my part I vnderstand no sequell of it , vpon all which both witnesses and reasons I leaue it to be iudged , how vntrue it is that Mr D. Sutcliffe dooth charge me with touching the matter of Hacket and Copinger , &c. both in wordes , writing and consent , which neuer spake with them of it in my life , neuer wrote vnto them , nor receiued writing or message from them further then I my self haue confessed : whereof let it also be further iudged whether I was consenting to that wretched practise .

Mr D. Sutcliffes accusation fol. 13. p. 1.

Yea and Thomas Cartwright ( they say ) dooth woorke extraordinary miracles : And fol. 58. p. 2. A legend of Mr Cartwright his miracles , which passeth from hand to hand and is much esteemed amongst the brethren is promised to come forth .

Th' answere of Tho. Cartwright .

Being ( as I feele my self ) short of th' ordinary works of my calling both in generall duties of christianitie , and in the particuler way of the gouernement of mine owne familie : woe should be vnto me if I should vainly boast of miraculous works , which my self haue especially written against , in condemning extraordinary callings whereof miracles are the seales : yet Mr D. Sutcliffe seemeth to insinuate thus much ( I say insinuate ) for that the brethren he brandeth to haue them in estimation ( I doubt not ) he meaneth to be men so fauouring me as they would bee loth to doo it if they thought it would not stande with my good liking . Now let the towne wherein I dwell be examined , whether any voice tending herevnto did euer come from me . And , as I thinke , none can be produced that will glory in this follie : so my desire is , that when this Legend shall come forth , there may be for the credite of him that setteth it out , the names of the reporters , & likewise of the brethren layed downe that are guiltie of the dotage he speaketh of , that thereby they may be cleared , or otherwise passe condemnation of the follie he chargeth them with .

Mr D. Sutcliffes accusation , fol. 45. p. 2.

Thomas Cartwright examined in the starre Chamber vpon certeyne poyntes of her Maiesties Supremacie , refused to answere , and pleaded that he was not bound .

Thomas Cartwrightes answere .

I refused it as esteeming it impertinent vnto that cause , not otherwise , vnto which afterward , vpon commandement I gaue answere in writing vnto her Maiesties most honorable Counsell . And to her Maiesties supremacie I haue bene sworne ( at the least ) fiue or sixe times , and if there be doubt of any change of my iudgement , I am ready to take th' oth againe .

Mr D. Sutcliffes accusation .

M. Cartwright highly commendeth Fenners booke , which giueth authoritie to superior persons to restraine their Soueraigne , as th' Ephori in Sparta .

Thomas Cartwrightes answere .

I take it Mr Fenner giueth no such authoritie , but only where the lawes of the lande doo establish such an authoritie as the Ephori in Lacedaemonia had . And if Mr Fenner did , yet how doth my Epistle commendatorie set before his booke make me of his iudgement , as if he that commendeth a book iustifieth what soeuer is in the booke , or as if , notwithstanding Mr Fenners singular learning ( which for his age many , I doubt not , both at home and abroade doo esteeme ) I might not or doo not differ from him in some things conteined in his booke : besides he him selfe confessing , that by oth in the starre Chamber I haue disavowed th' alowance of any such opinion which he fathereth of Mr Fenner , let it be considered with what minde he so often rubbeth vppon this point . And both for this and the former charge , I leaue it to bee considered with what christian modestie Mr Sutcliffe may now the second and the third time ( and that in print ) mooue question of those thinges to our discredite , which her Maiesties most honorable Counsell was pleased , should be no further proceeded in , and that he is not contented with that imprisonment we endured , which their Honors are satisfied with . Lastly , my iudgement in sundry matters of the Discipline excepted , wherein differing from sundry learned men in our Church , I haue the consent of many worthie Churches and godly learned both of this and other ages , I would bee ashamed for that singular mercy God hath shewed me by her Maiesties most gratious gouuernment to come behinde Mr Sutcliffe in anie duetie that my poore hand is able to reach vnto . And that he dareth me not once but sundry times to answere touching these matters of Discipline , I think it not so fitte for me to vndertake it , there being so many better able therevnto then I , especiallie in this declyning & forgetfull age of mine . And yet if my answere might haue either that alowance of print , or passage that his hath , and none other were found : I my self in this weaknesse I am in , would not be behind with answere to anie thing that he hath bene able to alleadge in this behalfe : If there be any thing in his writings , the answere wherof is not already set downe by such as haue written in that cause : And that my silence in the cause of Discipline is not altogeather either of th' inhabilitie or feare , Mr D. Sutcliffe would so willingly fasten , or rather force vpon me , let this be for an Argument , that where I was set on worke by the right honorable Sir Francis Walsingham for th' aunswere of th' annotations of the Iesuites vpon the new testament , & had traueled therin to a rude and first draught of a great part thereof : vnderstanding from some in authoritie that I might not deale with it , I did not onely not set any thing out my selfe , but also earnestly laboured by letters and friendes heere and in Scotland both the (a) (a) And if he stayed the publishing of that wherevnto he was once alowed by authoritie , it is not in al likelihood to be thought that he would hastely publish anie thing of him self , how soeuer he migt be perswaded of the truth of it ? hinderaunce of printing some partes therof , which beeing brought to Sir Francis afterwarde ( much against my will ) came into the handes of diuers to whom I would neuer haue let them come .

Mr D. Sutcliffes accusation .

Mr Cartwright vpon the comming forth of Martin is reported to haue saied that it was no matter , if the BB. were so handled , seeing they would take no warning . fol. 48. p. 1.

Thomas Cartwrightes answere .

Let it be iudged what christian loue it is to committe such things to print vpon a bare report . And if the reporters had bene named as in other cases where he doth call out the persons by their names , the trueth might haue the better appeared : For me , I am able to produce witnesses , that the first time that euer I heard of Martin Marprelate , I testified my great misliking & grief , for so naughtie , and so disorderly a course as that was . And therefore where fol. 51. pa. 1. he asketh when I will condemne th' vnlawfull and vnciuill practise of Martin and Penry ? I aske againe what office or charge I haue to publishe condemnation vpon euery vnlawfull and vnciuill writing that cometh abroad ? And yet I haue witnesses , that euen publikely when I was alowed to preach , I condemned all dealing in that kinde .

Mr D. Sutcliffes accusation , fol. 61. p. 1.

Extemporall prayers Tho. Cartwright commendeth most highly , as being vttered by the holy Ghostes secret inspiration : and scarse would be induced ( when time was ) to like of a prescript forme of prayer . And in the margen is added , Thomas Cartwrightes reply .

Thomas Cartwrightes onswere .

Where , in my replie , or in treatise of what matter I remember not , nor Mr Sutcliffe ( I beleeue ) shall euer shew that Thomas Cartwright hath so litle knowledge of diuinitie as to affirme that the extemporall prayers of anie ( how able soeuer in these daies ) are vttered by the holy ghostes secret inspiration . And in what place or time and in whose hearing could I scarcely be induced to like of a prescript forme of praier ? The noting of these circumstances , which he doth diligently , yea curiously ( where he thinketh they may serue the turne ) would easely haue bewraied , th' vntrueth hereof . My continuall practise in the ministerie witnesseth against it , for in the space of fiue yeres I preached at Antwerpe and Middelborogh , I did euery sunday read the praier out of the booke : And all the while I preached at Warwike there were few sermons I euer made there but ( to my remembrance ) I did shutt vp the praier either before or after the sermon with the Lordes praier : Besides that the praier before the sermon ordinarily was a set and accustomed forme of praier howsoeuer I read it not out of the booke , and likewise was that after the sermon some small part excepted , where in my praier I applied some principal pointes of the doctrine the handled : All which I would not haue done , if I had not alowed , yea well liked also a prescript forme of praier . And hitherto of the former kind of slaunders concerning the breach of necessarie dueties imposed vpon all christians . The second of things indifferent in their owne nature foloweth : For as touching his charge of odious and ignorant railing , &c. I referre my self to indifferent iudgement vpon the bookes which are extant .

Mr D. Sutcliffes accusation in his former booke , th' effect whereof is .

That notwithstanding Thomas Cartwright condemneth Executorship in other Ministers of the woord , yet that he was content to be Executor to his brother Stubbes his will : Looke also fol. 69. pag. 2. of his last booke .

Thomas Cartwrightes answere .

I was not so much as named in my brothers will , and to put of Mr Sutcliffes shift of answere he hath made to excuse him self in his latter booke , that by the woord of last will he would vnderstand anie conveiance lately made before his death , wherein trust was committed vnto me : I answere , that my brother Stubbes did neuer either long before or soone after his death put me in trust with anie of his worldly estate either by woord or writing . Neither is there ( as Mr Sutcliffe surmiseth ) any vnkindnesse of my Brothers towardes me , in not putting me in trust which would not that way be employed , or my vnkindnesse towards him , who trusted him with my whole estate that way . And that my Brothers wife and kindred rested not satisfied with my dealing : either is an vntrueth of Mr Sutcliffes report , or a most causelesse complaint of their behaulf . For where in regard of my wifes portion of twoo hundred pound , I had an annuity in fee-simple , for default of payment whereof after his death , ( besides th' annuity and arrierages ) I had a lease of a hundred yeres graunted me of certeine pastures to the yearely valew of six pound by estimation for a pepercorne only I was content , to th' end that the landes might be sold for the satisfying of my brothers creditours , freely and for naught to release my interest in that lease , which the law , for want of paiement of th' annuitie , did euidently cast vpon me : also to yeeld vp mine annuitie for the same summe of mony I had payed to my Brother , without both which my Brothers lande would haue found no conuenient sale for the paiement of his creditors vntill this day . And of my dealing herein , I take witnesse of Sir Robert Iermin of Suffolke , Mr Atkins & Mr Tindall of Lincolnes Inne : who were ( in deed ) the men my brother trusted with his worldly estate : and who ( in my iudgement ) acquited the trust my brother reposed in them accordingly .

Mr D. Sutcliffes accusation .

In his former booke he saieth , that I purchased three or fower good Mannours with the spoile of the Hospitall , and that only with the sale of a cottage and three or fower Acres of land : or ( as to my remembrance he speaketh in another place of his former booke ) as much land as would graze three or foure Goselings . Looke also fol. 68. p , 2. of his later Booke , & fol. 69. He may mend the matter if it please him , by conveying his landes and leases to his Hospitall : By which the law intendeth he hath gotte them for the most part . And fol. 70. He hath two leases at Welborne , he bought of Mr. Alexander Morgan , yerely woorth two hundred markes : His landes in Norfolk ▪ part wherof he had of his brother Stubbes , amount to halfe the summe : the valew of that he bought in Warwikeshire he knoweth best him selfe , some benefite hee hath made of the leases of the Hospitall .

Thomas Cartwrightes answere .

Here is a charge of a purchase of three or foure good Mannors , and two good leases , & both gott ( for the most part ) by the spoile of t'Hospitall , except the price of some small Cottage , &c. For the purchase of three or foure Mannours , I neuer purchased any Mannour in my life but the Mannour of Saxmundehā in Suffolke , wherof I haue yet but he moitie , nether shal haue these fourtene or fiftene yeres , if one Mr Iohnsons lease be availeable , as hitherto he hath enioyed it by me : who haue not disturbed his possession . The rent that he yeeldeth for th' one half of the Demaines is but xxx . shillings by yeare . The rent of the demeines that I receiue ( although enhanced as farre as the Tennant may liue thereof ) is yet but xxvi . pound by yeare . Th' other rentes for Copieholdes come yearely to a iij. pound or thereabouts , as I remember . So that the whole of that I receiue cometh to litle aboue xxx . pound by the yeare . To purchase this I solde of the inheritance my Father & grandfather left , as faire a house for a farme , not only as is in that towne where it standeth , but in diuers townes about , which had betweene eight or nine skoare Acres of arrable land belonging vnto it , with commons , medow & pasture agreable to the Farmes in that countrey , by yeere more then three times worth the valew that either my father or I receiued for it , & yet we receiued betwene eight and nine pounds yearely of cleare rent discharged of all quitte rentes . That Mr Sutcliffe may the better enquire into it , the Farme is scituate in Waddon in the county of Cambridge , seauen miles from Cambridge , where I had also a coate with a close adioyning vnto it , which I solde when I did sell th' other . Now where hee saieth I purchased my landes with my Hospitall , I know not why he should so often terme it my Hospitall , rather then ( as it is truly called ) the Hospitall of the Right honorable the Earle of Leicester : But this I know and professe constantly , that neither I nor anie for me purchased one foote of lande since I came to the Hospitall : I soulde an annuitie in fee-simple of xii . pound x. shillings by yeare since I came thither , as my L. chief Iustice of her Maiesties comon pleas doth wel know , before whom I acknowledge a fine : Leases of the Hospitall I neuer made but one onely , for which the house & not I receiued thirtie poundes . And because he draweth me to these accoumptes of th' Hospital , I will offer , and in the hearing of any equall and indifferent Auditour will make it cleare , that besides my continuall trauell for the setling and suites of the Hospitall , which I ( neuer brought vp therevnto ) would not haue vndertaken for anie money , but onely for conscience and duetie to the poore Hospitall my L. trusted me with : I haue laied out of mine owne purse fourty markes ouer and aboue that which I haue receiued or am like to receiue , vnlesse the stocke which is holden from the house be recouered . This partlie may appeare by an Accoumpt I gaue vp vnto her Maiesties Comissioners who had charge ( amongest others ) to enquire and certifie the whole estate of the poore Hospitall . Now for the two Leases in Welborne , They were bought by a friend of mine , who beeing the principall dealer is left out , whether to draw more envie to me , let it be iudged , especially of that which heereafter shall appeare : I confesse I should haue had a part therin , but they were neuer enioied either of him or me , but were released to Mr Morgan , for that he was not able without his vtter vndooing , to performe them . And where hee saieth they were worth to me twoo hundred Markes by the yeare , They neuer haue bene nor will be woorth to vs both two hundred farthings in all : More then that ( albeit my L. chief Iustice of England dealeth very honorably with vs ) yet I referre it vnto his iudgement ( if his Lordshippe will be pleased to speake in so priuate a matter ) that we are great loosers by Mr Morgan . And Mr Morgan ( if he haue but a sparke of good nature ) shall be constrained to confesse our kinde & christian dealing with him , both in releasing his bargaine for a summe farre vnderneath the valew it was woorth , and forbearing him many yeares with much patience , after the forfaiture of his Recognoisance and manie promises broken with vs . Now where hee excuseth these two last charges of being Executor to my Brother Stubbes , and of purchase of Lordships ( as he doth excuse many other things ) in that he dooth propounde it onely in a question , it is vnworthie of anie answere , not onely because a question doth more strongly sometimes avowe , then a bare affirmation , but because he is so violentlie & bitterly caried against the petitioner for the thinges hee hath set down by way of question . And for his excuse of being mistaken by the report of others , I referre it once againe to iudgement , how it fitteth with the credite of a Minister of the Gospell , to publishe ( and that in print ) what soeuer he receiueth by report , to the discredite of a Minister of the Gospel , and vnlesse Mr Sutcliffe will bring foorth his reporter , some will happily conceiue that it is the invention of his owne head . And if he did receiue it by report , yet seeing he would blow it abroad by so strong a blast , as is the print , at the least he should not haue simply affirmed it , but set it downe as a report . Lastly , where he saieth that he desireth not to be acquainted with my estate , He forgetteth him selfe . For in his former booke ( as I remember , for I haue not the booke at this present ) he promiseth to be a diligent Surveiour or Auditour of mine & others mens Landes . And in deed he is ouer diligent that can finde Landes of mine in Warwikeshire and Norfolke , wherof I my self nor anie of my friendes know not one foote , yet Mr D. Sutcliffe admonished in this behalf of his vntrueth set foorth in his former booke , and occasioned thereby to correct him selfe , feareth not in this later to affirme boldely that if he haue done amisse , it is because he hath set downe to litle , to much , ( sayeth he ) I haue not set downe , fol. 69. pa. 2. fol. 70. p. 1.