The second replie of Thomas Cartwright: agaynst Maister Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Churche discipline

The replye vnto the answer pag. j. &c.

FOr the foure fyrst sectyons / being either false accusations / bare repetitions off my wordes / or profes off thinges which I haue set downe and confesse : I will not answer . His fifte section answerethe not any thinge / to diuers reasons which I haue set downe / to proue that this cause can not be charged with disorder / whose whole worke is / that nothing be donne owte off place / owte off tyme / besides the boundes off euerie one His seuerall callinge . in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing / doothe gwilfully passe by the reason which I haue alledged / why this doctine which we mainteine / can not be thowght enemy vnto princes / seing yt was a freende to princes / when princes where enemies vnto it . For him selfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders / the choise off the ministers by the churche / the moste off those thinges which he especially supposeth to haue warre with the ciuile magistrate / and are in controuersie betweene vs / were in the tymes off the Apostells / when they being troden vnder feete off the ciuile Magistrate / did neuer lifte vpp their heele againste his power .

And where he saithe / it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cause / which is trewly spoken off the gospell : he needed not to haue charged vs with wante of plaine dealing / seing we offer to shew the discipline to be a parte off the gospell / and therfore to haue a comon cause / so that in the repulse of the discipline / the gospell receiueth a checke .

That the discipline off the church / is not in the nomber of those thinges which are varyed / is disputed in the second tractate / and in her seueral partes / thorowe out the whole booke . That the distinction off the common welthe / and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men / which haue spoken or written with any Iudgement / shall be shewed in the 20. Tractate : and therfore althowghe the answerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions : yet the reader shall once for all / looke for the answer off thes thinges in those places .

In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authoritie off the magistrate vppon no occasion / to no purpose / with greate wordes / with no proofe . Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the priestes of Aegypte : he complaineth of my obscuritie / and that he can not vnderstande what I meane : wheras I coulde hardely haue vsed greater light of speache / if I had bente my selfe therunto . For I proue the singuler benefite that the discipline bringeth to the comon welthe / for that by the Ecclesiasticall censures off admonition / reprehension / suspension / &c. the lesser faultes off lying / vncomely iesting / and cholericke speaking being met with all : the passage is stopped againste the greater faultes off thefte / adultery / and murder . Wherin obserue his vnfaithfull dealing / which feining him selfe not to vnderstande that which my wordes doo fullie sounde : doothe notwithstanding forge thinges off me / wheroff there is not the smallest ynkling . For here vppon he asketh / whether I thinke not the punishemet of thefte / and murther sharpe enowghe / with diuers other which folow : vnto all which sylence yff they were handled as they deserue / were the fittest answer . Howbeyt to shut vpp the mouthe off them / which seeke occasion / I answer : that as the Ecclesiasticall censures / shut not owte the ciuill punishementes / nor hinder not in any parte their course : so the ciuill punishementes can not displace the churche censures / considering that as the one is occupied in the punishement off the bodie / so the other is conuersant in the instructing off the conscience : and we haue a manifeste example off the ioyning off them together in one / and the same action in the scripture . Where yt was ordeined / that he that came not at the daie appointed / should be 10. Es●● ▪ punished by the losse off goodes which was meere ciuill / and by separation from the congregation / whiche was altogether Ecclesiasticall howbeit it shal be sufficient here to shewe / that where as the answerer shoulde haue disputed againste this that the Ecclesiasticall censures together with the ciuille punishementes / haue more force to resiste synne / then the ciuill punishementes onely : not being able to answer to the reason / as thoughe his nose blead / turnethe a syde and looking another way / so reasonethe / as if the question were / whether the ciuill punishement were off greater strenght to holde owte sinne / then the Ecclesiasticall / which neither is / nor shall be the question at this time / yt is sufficient that they be bothe necessarie . And whereas he asketh whether the magistrate hathe not power to correcte lying / vncomely iesting / cholericke speaking ( off which onely question he might seeme to haue some colour of occasion giuen by my wordes ) I answer that in saying that the magistrate doothe not commonly punishe them / I neither saye that either he maie not / or he will not ( as he doothe vntrewlie surmise ) but I had regarde vnto the estate bothe of our comon welthe / and of all other which I knowe this daie / where there are for the moste parte in thes cases / no courtes or iudgemente seates / which doo once take knowledge off thes causes it being also a common principell / that the lawe doothe not take care of smal things , as it is alledged in one of the lawe cases / which is reported in Kinge Henry the eight his yeares . And in respecte that suche like matters are onely corrected by thes censures off the churche / they are called off certeine consistorie matters . And therfore I refuse not onelie the iudgement off the indifferent but off the moste enemy reader / which hathe but a sparcke off equitie in him : How vntrew it is / that either we wringe the sword by thes wordes owte off the magistrates hande / or suspende the drawing off yt in anie respecte / vppon the pleasure off the eldershipp off the churche .

In the 9. section pag. 6. as thowghe the imperfection off the churche were not confessed off our partes / he setteth him selfe to proue / that men commit faultes as longe as they be in this liffe . Secondly to proue that the churche florisheth with vs / he alledgeth that the common wealthe florisheth : wherunto forsomiche as it is with owt the compas off this treatise to medle with the recitall off the breaches off the common welthe / and there are other proofes enowghe to conuince the deformities off the churche : I will make no answer / sauing that he muste vnderstande that in supposing diuers crackes in the common wealthe / we are so farre from staining the carefull watche / and painefulnes off the godlie magistrate ( as he surmiseth ) that his faithfull and godlie trauailes are rather herebie commended / who in so sore a sicknes / and amonges so manie partely vnfaithefull / and partely vnskillfull physicions / hathe hetherto kept liffe in yt .

In the 10. section / pag. 6 where he saithe / that the threatening off the Prophethe appertaineth to other realmes / whiche Esay 60. 12. refuse and persequute the gospell / and can not belonge vnto ours : the discipline being as it is propounded / and offred to be proued / a parte off the gospell / muste needes arme the lorde againste the refusers and so miche the more / as it coming into the churche as into her home / is therfore more dangerouslie reiected . And where the answerer in wordes calleth for fruicte off the gospell : In this enemitie which he hathe with the discipline off the churche pulling downe the hedge wherwith the lordes orchyarde shoulde be false from the inuasion of hurtefull beastes : he is as freendlie to the fruictes of the gospell / as the Easte winde is to the fruites of the earthe . For the Discipline off the churche being one off the moste excellentest meanes that the lorde hathe ordeined / to cause the doctrine of the gospell to fructifie : he is founde a nourice of that barennes againste which he exhorteth .

In the 11. section pag. 7. he hathe broken his bridell againe / and in leuing the matter in hande / he run̄eth to his olde accusations / wherunto I haue not to answer . That there ys no heade off the churche but onely Christ / shall be shewed in the treatise off the Archebishopp / into whiche question this falleth . And leste nothing shoulde be saide for answer to that which I had set downe : the glosse hathe here charged me / that I make more off the gouernement then off the gospell / whiche is a manifeste vntrewthe / for I speake of the discipline as off a parte off the gospell / and therfore neither vnder / nor aboue the Gospell / but the Gospell . But the reason which he addeth is to be noted : for ( saith he ) he likeneth the estate off the churche / to the wandring in the wildernes . Firste off all iff I did liken the estate off our churche now destitute off the discipline / vnto the estate off the churche whiche was in the wildernes : there is wherwithe that similitude is supported . For as diuers lawes were giuen vnto the Iewes in Mounte Synay / the practise wheroff they coulde not haue / vntill they came into the lande off Canaan : euen so the doctrine off the Gospell / cannot haue the full practise / vnles yt haue therunto ioyned the discipline . But to cut off all occasion off cauilling / iff I had not fallen vpon them that seeke yt / I expressed wherin the bringing in of the discipline shoulde haue bene like the conduction of the people into Canaan : not in that yt is ether better / or not so good as the doctrine off the gospell : but in this / that as then the people had their full deliuerance / when they came into that lande : so we by this addition off Discipline to the doctrine off the gospell / together with a whole and entier deliuerance owte off the thraldome off the popishe Aegyte / might haue greater fredome in the citie off God whiche is his churche .

The other Cauill is off the same sorte . For as I propounded the vpright kinges to be folowed / in their whole and full reformacions : so those which halted I set before / to the intente they should be avoyded / in that their reformacions were not throwghe / and therfore where a reformacion is not full / althowghe the wante be not in the same poincte in whiche they were behinde : yet therin yt resembleth them / that as they / so this is vnperfecte . Beside that it is vntrew that all those kinges / which I saide to haue caried the marke and spott off their imperfection / suffred manifest Idolatrie / as it appeareth 1. Reg. 15. in the example off kinge Asa . Vnto the nexte section I answer nothing .

To the 13. sect. pag. 9.

GEinge the church off Christ gathered amonge the Iewes / Act. 10. and S. Peter him selffe were ignorant off one of the greatest misteries off Christianitie / concerning the maner off the calling off the Gentillee : yt owght not to seme straunge vnto vs / iff those famous Martirs were ignorant / off some principall point commaunded by the word off god . And iff it be replyed / that this ignorance falleth not into the holie ordre off the martirs off Christ / and that the lord leueth not those which are witnesses vnto death / in ignorance off any such necessarie pointe : Cyprian and Iustin Martyr / ( wheroff besides other smaller errors the one helde / that those which were baptized by the heretikes / were to be baptized againe : the other was a Chiliast / and said that the faithful / should in the generall resurrection line with Christ here vppon earthe 1000. yeares : ) I say these two godlie Martyrs are sufficient profes / that the glorie off martyrdome / dothe not free men from being in danger off ignorance / off some necessarie doctrine commaunded in the scripture . Origene ( if he were as it written off him a Martyr ) had so many / and so grosse errors / that he had neede haue verie fauourable interpretation / to make him holde the fundation of Religion : especially iff they be his workes whiche goo vnder his name .

And if it be further said / that albeit those martyrs did erre in suche weightie matters : yet it is to be supposed that before their deathes / they chaunged opinion : I saye that that can be by no likelihoode supposed . For then vndowtedlie they would haue called backe their former opinions / and not haue suffred them to the hurt off the church / to haue liued after theredeathe . If this be not sufficient / to shew that godlie Maxtyrs maye remaine in the ignorance of some necessarie point of Religion : our owne Ecclesiasticall stories / do furnishe vs with diuerse examples off godlie Martyrs / off all sortes / and all times / but especially in the beginning ( when the daie off the light off the Gospell / beganne to peepe owt off that night off popishe darknes wherin we were ) who euen in there examinations before theire martirdome / affirme the contrary off that wheroff we are clerely taught in the word of God . I haue not the booke by me / but I well remembre there mentioned of a notable man / and off the later Martyrs / which affirmeth a verie grosse descent off our sauior Christ into hell : which is an error in one off the articles off our faithe . Another graunting such a Purgatorie after this life as the papistes do imagine / and others also diuerse failing in substantiall pointes of doctrine : wherby whatsoeuer becommeth off this place off Nehemias / yet that is trew which I set downe : that both good men / and learned / and martyrs / may not onely be ignorant / but also holde / the contrarie off some substantiall pointes off Religion . So that iff the example which I vsed / should not serue : yet the doctrine which I set downe is trew and vnshaken / yea ( sauing onelye a bare deniall ) vntouched .

And because the Answerer holdeth oute the Slidinges of the moste excellent seruantes of god / to hide this vnfaithful dealing withe the church in this resistance against the trewth : he must vnderstand that their want in these thinges / is so farre from making his fault lesse / that it shall weighe so much more to his condemnation / by how much the lord hathe offred the knowledge off those thinges vnto him which ( he disdainefullie reiectinge ) would withowt all controuersie haue bene ioyfullie embraced off those blessed Martyrs . And iff he had rather here this sentence off an other then off me : it is that which Cyprian in a certeine Epistle writeth / wher all Cyp. lib. 2. Epist. 3. this is confirmed when he saith : That yff any off our predecessors either by ignorance , or by simplicitie did not hold that which the Lorde did by his commaundement and example teache : that the Lord would forgiue that simplicitie : But vnto vs ( saith he ) which are admonished & instructed , there is no suche pardon lefte .

And althowghe he now whiteth there tombes withe a fewe faierr wordes : yet it is to be feared / that iff they were aliue / and should but a litle touche his bile : all the learning and godlines they had / should not be able to harnesse them from those dartes of his tonge / which others haue felte . And it shall appeare I dowbt not or euer we haue done / whether he beare that reuerence / which he pretendeth / when I shall haue shewed / that the principall pointes which are debated betwene vs / and which he is so looth to forgoo / be clere and manifest assertions / partlie off the eldest and moste auncientest professors off the gospell / and partely off the moste famous / learned martyrs in this our land : I saye when these thinges shal be shewed it shal be discouered : whether this price which he seteth of there iudgement / hathe risen of their exellencie in vertew / and learning / or rather of that cause which I haue before obserued .

In the allegation off the place of Nehemias / yff I would followe the answeres traine / I need not retracte any thinge . For I could alledge / vppon that that bothe before and after ther is rehearsed the same storie which was spoken off in Esra / the feast off tabernacles is like to be all one / spoken off in Esra / and in Nehemia : howbeit because there are reasons which leade me to thinke otherwise : I willinglie confesse that the storie of the celebration of the feast of tabernacles in the third of Esra / maketh against that I said / of not holdinge that feast so manie yeares . But I denie that the answerer in all this great triumphe / either dothe or can lose my holde off that place / wherby I confirmed the continuance off so many yeares in omittinge that / which owght to haue bene done by the commaundement of god . For notwithstanding the feast were celebrated : yet it can not be shewed / that it was kept in suche 23 , Leui. sorte as it owght / with boothes made of certèine leaues / and bowghes commaunded in the law . And that the wordes off the booke of Nehemias / which affirme that the children of Israel had not done so from the time / &c : are not referred onely to the ioie which was great in that feast / but vnto the kepinge of it with bowghes ●● in times past omited / there is this likelihood : that the storie sheweth / how they had celebrated the first day off the feast withowt any off those bowghes prescribed / and that the second day of the feaste / hearing the law read which commaunded those bowghes / they corrected their error werupon im̄ediatelie folowe these wordes of the booke that the children of Israel had not done so , from the time of Iosuah the sonne of Num , wherby appeareth that there was a generall ignorance of the manner of solemnizing that feast / euen in Esra the highe priest / whose expertnes and knowledge in the law off god / together with a feruent zeale to seke the lord / is so highlie commended off the holie ghoste . And iff the Hebrew coniunction Vau , which followeth immediately / be taken in the proper signification : the wordes off the texte will not suffer that worde ( So ) to be referred to any other thinge / then to the omitting off that commaundement of the lord / by the space of so many yeares as I haue assigned . so that vnlesse I will yealde him this place willinglie : he is not able withe any force of reason / to wring it owt of my handes .

The places off the kinges and Cronicles are not like vnto this : for the speaches are plaine and clere there which is not so in this place / especiallie to that ende / that he would carie them . Where he asketh whether he should saie ) That I haue not read the place , or doe not vnderstand yt , or willinglie and wittiinglie abuse it or receiued it in some notes from others ) let it be free to him for me to saye either of them / or all off them togither . But wher he saith he , will saie none of them / and yet in another place twentie lines after / chargeth me with the most heinous of them all that is with wilfull deprauing off the Scriptures : excepte he can bring it to some figure of Rhetoricke / which wil be harde for him to doo : it is to open an vntrewth / ioined as it should seme / withe a great excesse of enuie and displeasure : the streme wheroff was so stronge / that it did as it were by force / carie awaie the trewth off his promise .

Vnto the 14. section .

I Onelie proue that their highe estate owght not to shadowe the cause in hand : I saye nothing lesse then that men in highe estate can not haue the trewth : their is no syllable sounding that waies / the contrary I plainely affirme / that manie off the Nobilitie and gentrie / are Zelous and Religiouse . To what ende therfore these places owt off Isay / Gualter / Bullinger to proue a thing not onelie not denied / but plainely afmed ? For iff he thinke Maister Bullingers sentence dothe hinder / that the saiynge off S. Paule to the Corinth . can not be vnderstanded of these times : he is greatlie abused / consideringe that the reason which the Apostell there vseth / which is that no fleshe should glorie in the sight off God / reacheth to the whole estate of the kingdome of Christ / and is not proper to that time . And when Maister Bullinger saith that it came to passe especiallie in that time / he excludeth not the times that folowe .

Where as he saithe the simple and plaine meaning of the texte to be / that god in his election to eternall life / hathe neither respecte to learning / nobilitie / riches or any suche thing : he do the manifestly corrupte the sentence off the Apostle / and the whole proces off his diputation . for the apostle going abowt to mainteine / the naked simplicitie off the preaching off the word of god / against those that would haue the word preached in the swelling wordes off mans eloquence : amongest other reasons vseth this / that the lord vseth for the most part other meanes to doo his / then the wisdome off men would chuse to doo their matters . And therfore that the simple kind off preaching / withowt all pompe and brauerie off speach / might semelesse strange : he sheweth the same to come to passe in the callinge off god / in which he taketh the moste vnlikely in mans iudgement / and passeth by those that the wisdome of man would sonest take . And albeit it be to an other ende / this sentence off S. Paule is the same in effecte with that off S. Iames : that god chuseth the poore in the world riche in faith . Now althowghe it be trew / that god hathe not respecte Iam. 2. 5. to riches / or pouertie / nobilitie / or base degree in his eternall election : yet who is there so voide off all iudgement / that will saie that the trew and simple meaning off S. Iames in this place is / that god in his eternal election hathe no regard to riches / or pouertie ? When he therfore reproueth them to whom he wrote for that they reiected the poore which the Lorde for the moost part chuseth / and made much off the riche / which he for the moste part reiecteth .

Saint Paule therfore sheweth not onely what came to passe in those times : but what for the moste part commeth / and shall come to passe / vnto the worldes ende in the Kingdome of Christ : euen that he had before learned of our sauior Christ / that the poore as those that are afflicted / and cast downe withe the sense off their miseries / oftentimes do gladlier receiue the gospell . Neither followeth it herevpon that the riche and noble are shut owt off the kingdome off God / or that riches off them selues make men lesse apte to the kingdome off heauen / seing Abraham the father off the beleuers was riche : or els that the riche sometime goo not before the poore in receiuing off the gospell : whiche we reade to haue come to passe in Beroe / and Thessalonique / and which sometimes commeth to Act. 17. passe not onelie in one citie / but in a whole realme / that the nobilitie embrace the gospell / and the baser sort despise yt . But this I say which also the Apostle meaneth / that the common and most vsuall calling off God / resteth in more off the porer then off the richer sorte : that the riche and noble that haue receiued that benefite of this holie callinge / maie learne therby the better to esteme the treasure they haue / and the faster to hould y● . But I feare lest in confuting his absurditie / I become almoste as absurd as he .

Yow allow nothing which maketh against yow / and that yow may saye trew all Scriptures be they neuer so plaine / must be falsified . The place off the Cronicles in the 29. chapter / is no collection / but the plaine and manifest wordes off the Scripture / and so clere that it was not possible to haue had clerer wordes . For after that the holie goste had said / that the leuites the priestes brethern / had helped them vntill the worke were done / and vntill the priestes had sanctified them selues / he addeth the reason 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 that is , for the leuites were more vpright in harte in sanctifyinge them selues then the priestes . And here the faithe of the Answerer which he vseth with his reader is to be obserued . Which hauing one onelie translation to meintaine him selfe / against a manifest truthe of the scripture / hathe followed that / and left not onely the trewthe of the Hebrew / but all other translations bothe of the greke ( wherof the oulde interpretour is nothing els but a translator ) and of the latin Munster / Pagnine / Leo Iuda / Castalio and other translations in other languages / which I am perswaded with one full consent / haue amended the error off the vulgar translation in latin . and yet he is not ashamed to saie / that some translation semeth to insinuate some suche thing as I haue set downe / in steede that he should haue said : all translations the ould onelie excepted / so expound it : he speaketh as thowghe some one translation onely had so turned . And in steed that he should haue said they plainelie and clerelie declare it / he saith that yt semeth in some translation to insinuate : and where he should haue said / the same thinge that I haue sett downe he saith some suche thinge . And on the other side when he speaketh of the translation Which serueth his humor . He saith / That yff credit may be giuen to those which be notable lerned men , speaking in the plural numbre / as thowghe there were a numbre / that had so translated it : when beside the oulde translator / he is not able to shew so muche as one . For wher he saith that Pellicane translateth those wordes / &c. he is a-abused : for they are the wordes off the ould translator / and not off Pellicane / who neuer set forth any translation . I graunt that Pellicane being deceiued by the oulde interpretor so expoundeth it : but what is that against so manifest both light of the texte / and consent off all other learned men / which all with one consent refuse the oulde translation as that which dooth open violence vnto the trewth : so that I perswade my self that euen the verie papistes / as the monke Isiodorus Clarius / hath in this point reformed the oulde translator . And it is a mere fable / that the Leuites could be sanctified easlier / or in shorter time then the priestes : neither is their any suche thinge in all the law of Moses . For as touching the corporall pollutions / that happened vnto men by touchinge of thinges which the law counted vncleane and common or off what other meanes soeuer men were made vnmeete / to come either into the congregation of God / or other societie of men : the purgation and clensinge accordinge to the kind off pollution / was the same and in the same time / not onelie vnto the priestes and Leuites but also vnto the common people / and this answere is manifestlie ouerthrowen by the wordes off the text . for in that there were some priestes sanctified as well as the Leuites : it proueth manifestly that the cause off staie was not in the time that the ceremonie off sanctifing required / for then that should haue also staied the rest off the priestes .

And wher he saith Surelie the verie circunstance off the place doth proue that sence to be true : there can no wordes be sufficient to declare this bouldnes . For wher the holie ghoste doth assigne the cause off the fewnes off the priestes in the worke off the lord / in plaine wordes for that the leuites were more vpprighte in hart to sanctifie them selues then the priestes : he would make vs beleue that the cause of their fewnes in that worke was that which he hath imagined : wherof there is not a lettre in the scripture . For that there were to few priestes to fleay the sacrifices I graunt : that the Leuites helped the priestes vntill other priestes were sanctified / I likewise graunte : but that the cause off this fewnes was either the want off nombre off those which were in the order and degree of priesthood / or for that more time was bestowed in sanctifying the priestes then the leuites ( which he imagineth ) I denie / and against his imagination oppose the manifest wordes of the holie goste .

In the place also off the 30. of the Chronicles / it is manifest that the people were more earnest / then either the priestes or the leuites . And althowgh the answerer haue here neither corrupte translation / nor vntrue exposition / nor patch off reason to set against it : yet he wil not yelde him selfe to the truthe . The holie goste declaring the readines off the people off Iudah / in assembling them selues so spedilie / and withe so generall a consent / and their zeale in breaking downe the monumentes of Idolatrie / first at Ierusalem ( as appeareth bothe in the last verse of the 29. chapter / and in the verse goinge before this place ) and afterward in the whole contrie off Iudah ( as appeareth in the beginning off the nexte chapter ) iff he had said nothinge els yet it might haue bene gathered . But when he addeth immediatelie after he had spoken off the readines / and zeale off the people / that the Leuites and the priestes were ashamed : Iff this be not the cause / I would gladlie learne of the answerer what should be . And the Rabbins althowghe they often times wringe the wordes off the texte / to couer the shame off their nation / and especiallie off those which were in publike charge : yet durst neuer attempte to striue against suche light off wordes as be here : but in bothe those places off the Cronicles / confesse the faultes off their Schelomo Iarchi . priestes and leuites . And one of them in this place giueth this reason / why the priestes and Leuites differred their sanctifiyng of them to the worke of the lorde / namelie for that they could not beleue that king Ezechias ment good faith and therfore held of and stode aloufe / because they suspected that the king would returne to his fathers traine of Idolatrie / as it commeth often to passe in those that serue the time / which waite vppon what side the wind will turne .

And that owght not to seme so strange a thinge vnto the answerer / considering that beside this place / there is example off this vntowardnes of the priestes / and Leuites in respecte off the people in an other place / for when king Artaf hasta had giuen leaue vnto the Iewes to returne vnto Ierusalem / Esra . 8. ca 15 , vers . for the aduancement off the seruice off God with Esra : it appeareth that there were of all sortes off men which willinglie accompanied Esra in his iorneye / but of the the leuites either priestes / or which were simplie leuites / ther was not founde one / vntil suche time as Esra was faine to vse his authoritie which the king had graunted him for the causing of them to come .

Vnto the three next sections being reproches / I answere not / for it is vnworthie to be answered / which he speaketh off contrarietie with my selffe / because I acknowledge the Bishops my superiors / which would haue equalitie off the ministerie .

To the next pag. i3 . I answere .

IT is not enowghe for yow to corrupt the holie scripture sentence by sentence / but yow must also ouerthrow at once the meaninge of thre whole chapters togither . semeth it a smale thinge in your eies to confound thinges diuerse / but yow must mingle those which are cleane contrarie . For S. Paule dothe not in the eight / ninthe / and tenth chapters speake against those which strine aboute owtward thinges / but quite contrarie disputeth against those which meinteined the free vse off all owtward thinges withowt exception : not against the spiced conscience off some weake brethren / that made scruple off thinges wher was none / but against the senseles conscience of those / which vnder pretence off libertie off owtward thinges / gaue occasion of daungerous falles vnto the weaker brethren / and which considering onelie what was in the owne nature lawfull / had no regard to the circumstances off place and persons / wheryvpō he sheweth thinges otherwise in them selues lawfull / to be throwgh circumstances as towching the vse vnlawfull . And especially in the tenth chapter he confuteth the verie selfe same reason / which the A. towieth so roundlie with in this place : which was / that for so muche as the eatinge at the Idolles feast / was but an owtward thing / and went no farther then to the bellie : therfore it was indifferent to be vsed or left at a mans discretion . So the place ( then the which their is none stronger in the whole bodie off the Scripture / to bind and kepe in the lauishe vse off Christian libertie ) that the A callendgeth for the enlarging of it betonde the boundes that God hathe set in his word .

And wheras he saith that S. Paule declareth their contentions which seperate them selues from the church for externall thinges : S. Paule maketh no mention there either off contention or diuision from the church / neither in deed they which abused then their libertie contended withe the weaker / but contemned them . Also off deuiding them selues from the church in that place is not a worde / who soeuer will reade those places with a litle diligence / shall easely perceiue that this is the matter which the Apostle giueth owt in that place . As touching externall thinges for which the church of Christ may not contend / they are suche as ( there being no commaundement of God directlie to vse them or not to vse them ) are left in the discretion of the faithful to be ordered the most to Godes glorie and edifiyng one off an other : therfore as I thinke termed off learned writers externall / for that they come not vnto the conscience / nor bind not yt . For otherwise that difference off externall and internall thinges / is not sufficient to giue to vnderstand / which are thinges indifferent / or vnindifferent . For neither are all externall thinges left to our discretion / as I haue shewed : and there are some internall thinges / as off certeine inward thowghtes and opinions which are not imputed vnto vs for synne / whether side soeuer we thinke or iudge of them . As if I thinke in my selfe that there was neuer suche a Hector / or Achilles / or troye as is described off Homere and virgill / I sinne not : and if I thincke there was / neither is that imputed vnto me for synne . But these thinges which be in controuersie seing we offer to proue them commaunded / and necessarie by the word off God : how commeth it to passe that yow lashe owt so manie places owt off Bullinger / and Zuinglius against those / which trouble the church for indifferent thinges : as thowghe yow had alreadie gotten that which yow confesse by and by to be in triall : that these things which we demaund are not necessarie ? What order of iudgement is this / first to giue iudgement or euer the cause be heard ? iff yow will needes be bothe partie and Iudge / at least yow should haue saued these vntill yow haue as yow promised shewed the vntreweth off our cause . And therfore hereafter as often as yow doo importunatelie and vnstill fully heape so many places togither : yow shall haue for answere ● plaine blancke .

To the 16. sect. pa. 14.

WHether yow haue either scripture or godlie learned author for your warrant in your assertions / partely hath bene alreadie shewed / and more shall appeare . But yow must learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god / is neither to propound any thing to the church / neither to reiecte that which is propounded by other / off credit off any godlie / learned / zelous man . And althowghe this be to much / yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al square . Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie / whether owt off the Scriptures / or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs / is the best reason that can be browght in diuinitie . To bothe I will answere here in the beginninge that the reader may haue wherewithe he maye beware / and know how to estenie bothe his and our proufes . And first of all seing the Apostle teacheth Timothie / that the Scripture inspired by 2. Tim. 3. the holie goste / is the onelie rule for the minister ( which he calleth the man off god ) either to establishe or ouerthrowe what soeuer maye fall in question in the churche : And S. Peter saith that who soeuer speaketh in the churche must speake as the wordes of god : And seing all the godlie zelous learned men in 1 Epist. 4. the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god : I leaue it to be considered how daungerouslye he mainteineth his answere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god / or the iudgement of some godlie iearned man / and let it be waied whether this be to set vp an other Doctor in the church then Moses or our sauiour Christ .

Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diuine matters owght to preuaile / I willinglie graunte : but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche haue interpreted the Scriptures / is the beste reason in controuersies off diuinitie / but off the Papistes ( whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors ) was neuer hard off . And thowghe there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion : yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospell / maye to the vtter subuersion off it / cause this to be printed and flie abroade . And that the authoritie off learned men should be the best proufe in diuine matters / hathe more absurdities in yt / then yt hathe wordes . For first their authoritie is here set in the same ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture / in that / as the authoritie off the Scripturr / so it also / is set in the superlatiue degree off the best proufe Then their authoritie being preferred vnto all reasons / is preferred vnto the reasons drawen owt off the Scripture : which in euerie diuinitie cause almoste / besides the authoritie are diuerse : drawen off the causes and off the effectes / &c. Thirdlie yt ys absurd / to perferr the authoritie of any man ( which ys onelie his bare affirmation ) vnto his one reason and discours . And seing the ende off proufes in controuersies off diuinitye / is that faythe maye be engendred in mindes / whiche onelye can be grounded on the worde off God : what a miserable / yea what ● cursed faith shall that be / that is hanged off the authorit●● off men : which be they neuer so learned / yet are they ( because they be men ) Lyers / suche as deceyue / and be deceyued .

And wheras he saithe that an Argument off authoritie hathe an other weight in our profession / then yt hathe in humane sciences : I confesse it hathe so / iff the authoritie off the Scripture bee consydered : But as for the authoritie off men / for the which cause he alledgeth this / y● is farr otherwise . For yff the authoritie off man in humane sciences / and in mens matters / be off small force : off how how muche lesse force owght yt to be in Godes matters ? yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. sayth . For althoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men / is Good neither in humane / nor diuine science : yet it hath some smale force in humane sciences : for as muche as naturallie / and in that he is a man / he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences . Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all / as off him which naturally and as he is a man / can no more Iudge off them / then a blind man off colours . Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture : that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth / whatsoeuer proceded from him / which the Apostle did well note when to signifie Rom. 3. a thing corruptlie spoken / and against the truthe / he saith : that it is spoken according vnto man : he saith not as a wicked or lying man / but symplie as a man . And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye : yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advanced / there remaineth bothe ignorance / and disordered affections ( wheroff either / turneth him from speaking off the truth ) no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie / and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God / can bring any assurance vnto the conscience . So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew ( as it is vntrue ) : and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie / and according to the meaninge off the writers cited ( as they are almost all writhen / and falsified ) yet being for the most part / vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men / they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them .

And iff he saye / that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god : then besides that he is greatly to blame / that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so / and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand : it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force : as that which hathe no credit off it selffe / but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other . And then the D. should haue considered / that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other / that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places : it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth . for that for whose cause another thinge is / is better than the thing which dependeth vpon it . And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good / and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe : that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons / are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie . And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache / in the wordes which he addeth ( of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture : ) that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie : so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche . For besides that he taketh that for graunted / which is the question / that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo : he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation / dependeth not vpon the authoritie of the man / or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it : but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte .

And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe / may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie / he is not so good a scholer o● disciple off his pretended masters : of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues ( wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason / which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others : some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude man alledging reason / vnto companies off learned men ) I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences . Ireneus saith / Whatsoeuer is to be shewed in the scripture : can not be shewed but of the scriptures them selues . 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith : No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after vpon the 86. Psal. Epist. 18. the Apostles . Augustin saith : that he will beleue none how godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not contrary to them . And in an other place / heare this the Lord saith , heare not this Donatus saithe , Rogatus saithe , Vicentius saith , Hilarius , Epist. 48. saith , Ambrose saith , Augustin saithe , but harken to this the Lord saithe .

And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian / affirmeth : Against Maxim. ● the Arrian . 3. 14. chap. that neither he owght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece , nor the other the councell of Arimin , therby to btinge preiudice eche to other : neither owght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one , nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other : but by the scriptures whiche are witnesses proper to neither , but common ro bothe , matter with matter , cause with cause , reason with reason owght to be debated . And in another place against Petiliane De vnitate ecclesiae cap. 3. the donatian hereticke he saith : Let not these wordes be heatd betwene vs , I Saye : yow Saye : let vs heare this , Thus saithe the lord , and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche , there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe / which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off : likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth . and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie / owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince / but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned : iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely : let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is / which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight / that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause . And iff at any time Contr Iulian Pelagiann̄ lib. prim . lib. de natur . & grat . it happened vnto him ( as it did against the Donatistes ▪ and others ) to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him : yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures / and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth / who bare themselues highe off some Councell / or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte . And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places : yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation / either of any scripture or colour of scripture : and being prouoked flieth still from it / as from the rocke and sandes o his cause : it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side : yet the vse off it in this sorte / were bothe by the rule off the word off god / and example off the auncient fathers altogither vnlawfull . And so the estimation which yow haue off the learned maie easelie appeare vnto all men / to be as they make for yow / or against yow : so that when they make for yow they are as sharpe of sight as Egles : afterward when they are against yow they see no more then Iayes .

Yow giue me adresse vnto the wisest / godliest / and best learned emongest the Ecclesiasticall order / to know off them whether they thinke whith yow : but your addresse is verie vncerteine : for those are not alwaies peraduenture best learned to me that are to yow / and iff yow meane those whiche at there ease do not vnwillinglie beholde yow in this wrastle for the crowne of ease and honor ( whereoff they may be peraduenture some ) I maie yet haue Good cause to doubte / whether they be off that iudgement with yow / or at least whether they would oppugne this cause as yow doo . for albeit they be content to take some frute off your labor : yet it followeth not alwaies that they would doo the like them selues . Yow know that there are some whiche will receiue that which is taken by others / that would not venture them selues to take yt : and Ierome Ier. 3. To praefat in Iob. writeth some where : that faultes euen confessed please oftentimes .

Vnto the three next sections

THat your counsaile vnto the reader off lookinge before he leape is Good : onelie I admonishe that he looke by the candell light off the word off God . For that off allteringe our Iudgement yt cometh after to be answered pag. 45. Vnto that which foloweth in the 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. I will answere nothinge / sauing that for the proufe off that which I haue set downe and he denieth towchinge the aduantage taken by the faultes off the printer : I referre the reader to the corrections in the ende of the admonition . And where he denieth that the admonition quoted anie places for the phrase off speache / and not the proufe off matter : to goo no further / I referre him to the first page / wher the 7. and 11. off S. Mathew are noted for the phrase / and can by no meanes be drawen whether he would drawe them .

To the 27. sect. pag. 24.

WHere he accuseth me that I answere not to this sectione in the nexte line I answere to it : for confessinge it to be a fallation / and shewing afterward how vntruelie it is obiected / what more could I answere ?

To the 28. pag. 25 :

HEre M. D. sekinge busilie to hide his nakednes / findeth not so muche as a figge leafe to couer his shame with all . Na in sekinge a hole to hide it in he hathe met with a hill to shew it further of . He accusethe me of dishonestie / that I haue falsified his wordes in saying that he affirmeth it To be a thinge indifferent to come to the communion clothed or naked for that he hathe not vsed this word ( indifferent ) . yow bind me verie streight iff yow will let me vse no other wordes then yow / that which yow said in manie wordes I vttered in one . I refuse not to be counted vnhonest / iff I haue differred in sense from yow . For whether that be a thing indifferent or no / whiche is neither commaunded in the scripture nor by necessarie collection maye be gathered theroff : I leaue it to the Iudgement off all those / whiche haue learned that the scripture is a perfecte rule off all thinges publike or priuate necessarie to be done off a Christian man : which thinge also after is more at large declared . And where the glosse saith / that the proufe owt off S. Paule that it is no indifferent thing For men to come either clothed or naked is superfluous : I merueile that he seeth not that it is directlie against that he setteth downe whiche is / that it can not be shewed owt of the scripture either by plaine wordes or by necessarie collection , that men and women owght not to come naked vnto the communion . yt was peraduenture more then he woulde haue had / but his absurd assertion required it . After he saith he knoweth it is necessarie to comelines / that a man or woman come clothed : but he denieth it to be particularly expressed in the scriptures ▪ as thoughe this were all one withe that which he set downe before / and that there were no difference betwene these saiynges : yt is not commaunded in the scriptures , nor can by no necessarie collection be gathered off them , with this it is not particularly expressed in the scriptures . And to helpe to clense M. D. Maister Ridley a singulier learned man and constant martir of Christ must be defiled withe this grosse error . Who althowgh being a man mighte wel erre : yet it is incredible that a man of his learninge and godlines / coulde fall in so plaine a way as this . Therfore / onlesse it be made to appeare / I can not beleue that euer he wrote so and iff he did / I am sure he is well content that as stubble it shoulde passe throughe the fire .

Wher yow aske whie I toke that example and lefte the rest : I gaue yow the reason for that the other came to be spoken off more properlie in another place / and that was onelie founde there : besides that they are farre off another sorte then this . Now let me aske yow : whie yow placed that with the rest / seing yow confesse these in other places to be thinges indifferent / and at the ordre off the churche : and here denie that yow propounded this as a thing indifferent . iff yow graunte the other to be indifferent / and denie this to be so / yow did euill in couplinge them togither which were not matches : yff yow saye they are all off one sorte / and confesse that the other be indifferent then I haue truely reported your iudgement / in saying that yow houlde this also as a thing indifferent .

The like cauill vnto this / is that he chargeth me as thowgh I had falsified his saying / for that I put in steade of his word Argument fallation . I would knowe off him whether when he findeth fault withe the argumentes off the Admonition , he meane to finde faulte withe trewe Argumentes or false . iff ( as needes must ) he answere false argumentes : I saie that there is no difference betwene a false argumente and a fallation , sauing that the word fallation is more proper / and the other worde in this signification is vsed 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or ( as I maye terme it ) abused : for in deede a false argument argueth nothing : and therfore is no argument / no more then a peinted man is a man . And where he saithe that I am not ignorant that there are manie false argumentes / which be not amongest the fallations : and further askethe to what fallation this and that is referred : albeit I coulde shew his ignorance in them / especially in the two last / yet because that were to drawe the reader to moo questions and those altogither impertinent vnto this matter / I will stopp vp this heade / and put yow in remembrance / that if al were graunted yow that yow demaunde / yet your faulte remainethe still . For I noted your vnskilfulnes / in that yow setting downe certeine argumentes which yow referred to the fallation off Secundum qui● , afterwardes make the argumentes off authoritie negatiuely , and negatiues by comparison , two seuerall kind off argumentes from the first / whiche notwithstanding are not diuerse / but conteined vnder the former place . And that we walke not altogither in the cloudes from the vnderstanding off the simpler / yt is all one as yff a man should saye / there are three sortes off English men / one sowthren / the other Bentishe / the thirde Middlesex . Yff Maister Crammer neuer vsed suche Logicke / suche a personage hath great iniurie to be compelled to communicate withe this absurditie : for it nothing helpeth yow that he vsed this manner off speeche off Negatiues by comparison , vnlesse that yow shew that he makethe them a seuerall kinde from those off Secundum quid . And when M. D. is not affraid to offre thes vnto the tast off the learned men / he askethe me whether I blushe not trifle in this sorte . The trewthe is : I am ashamed to haue taried so longe in soo smale a matter / and iff yow had charged me withen ignorance onelie / and not with falsifiyng your wordes / I would ( I assure yow ) haue let yow gone withall : and I will promise yow from henceforth what occasion so euer yow giue this wayes / ( excepte it be manifestly ioyned with defence off the cause ) yow shall doo yt withowt answere . Where he complainethe off wante off answere in the nexte section / he dothe me wrong / seing I referred him to another place for answere . To the next section I haue answered .

To the next sect . pag. 28.

IFF this sentence ( he that is a good and a modest preacher will not disdaine as well to be taught as teach ) be not an idle vagabonde / and broken loose from all his followes : then it must needes be a reason off that wherin yow said before / that yow knew no man so well learned , but yt might become him to reade and learne Maister Nowellles Cathechisme and the Argument is as I haue gathered it . For yow to proue that yt becommeth the authors off the admonition to learne that Cathechisme / adde that the place off Timothie / dothe not forbidd to learne . And againe a Modest preacher will not disdaine to be taught . So that this is your argument / A modest preacher must be taught / therfore he must learne that Cathechisme / and therfore must be enioyned to learne yt . And iff yow saie that yow set yt downe to shew / that no man is so well learned but he may learne still / or to shew that the place off Saint Paule dothe not forbidd to learne : I aske to what purpose ? Considering that the authors off the admonition / do not denie that a Minister owght to learne : but that yt is vnmeete for a Mynister to be enioyned to learne Cathechismes . And as for all the argumentes which the D. gatherethe himselfe owt off this place / they are so manie witnesses against him / that he fowght with his owne shadowe . For where he still concludethe they may reade Cathechismes / he concludeth that whiche the admonition denieth not : but that whiche the admonition denieth to be meete / ( which is to driue a minister to learne Cathechismes ) he neuer concludeth . Yt shal be therfore at your owne choise / whether yow will haue that your argument that I haue framed / or els that yow haue not spoken to the matter .

Vnto the 32 : sect: pag: 28 :

IN orators I graunt it is a great point off arte / to hide arte / that it appeare not : but when a man setteth him selffe to confute / the opener and plainer way hathe alwaies bene most commendable . So that iff this were your order / yt had bene good that yow had set vp some marke by a transition / wherby we might haue vnderstanded yt . I know not what happened vnto others / but I confesse I sawe no suche order . I see this / whiche also is true in your former answers / that in goinge abowte to heale one wounde / yow giue your selffe an other . for going abowte to put from yow the absurditie off this argument / yow confesse that yow bestowe great labor to proue that / which was not in controuersie betwene the admonition and yow : the other shal be sene in there places .

To the next section answere shal be made in the place wherunto he referreth vs . For the next vnto that : I answere that this is a vaine shift / the aduantage wheroff he can not take to excuse his folie . For this reason which he here alledgeth / he had cited owt off Maister Bucer / and Maister Martyr / page 258 / and immediately after in the page . 239. he pretendeth that he will bringe other reasons / besides this to proue that the surplis dothe edifie : and therfore beginneth a freshe withe furthermore , and then addeth Secondlie , wheras iff it be trew which he here alledgeth / in his pretence off going further / he standeth still and remoueth not an ynche . For the next vnto that / I saye as I said before / and referre it to the iudgemente of the reader / whether I haue not onelie not corrupted your meaninge / but almost conceiued mine argument in the same wordes which yow vse . And wher yow so boudlie ( in asking ) affirme that capp gowne and tippet vsed in poperie are good signes / for that they are signes of good thinges / namely off the ministers off the worde : I shewed how vntrue that rule is in the 57. and 60. pages / against whiche if yow haue any thinge to saye / yow shall there vnderstand further .

To the next pag. 30.

MD. taketh it for a thinge assured / that the authors of the adminition in sayinge that those that first authorised the booke of common praier / were studious off peace / and buildinge off the church / meant that they were so / in collectinge and authorisinge that booke : for why els saithe he should they speake of them ? I answere that they had good occasion to saye so / to meete withe slaunderous tonges / which for the mislikinge off some thinges donne by them / are ready to charge them as thowghe they condemned the men / or misliked off all thinges they did . And althoughe that be graunted whiche he presumeth vppon / yet the faulte off the argument remaineth the same it did . for thowghe they were studious off peace and buildinge the churche in so doinge : yt might well be that they toke not the best way to peace / and propounding them selues a good ende / chose not the best meanes of comminge thervnto . And for this purpose ( iff I be not deceiued ) in our Ecclesiasticall storie off king Edwards times / it is set foorth / how vpon . sute made by the Emperour / that the ladie Marie which then was / might for her selfe haue the exercise off the masse : M. Crammer / and Master Ridley / and I know not who moo / became suters to the kinges maiestie / that the request off the Emperour might take place . I dowbt not but those good men / were studious off the peace and buldinge off the churche in this request / and propounded that for their ende : and yet king Edward that resisted their requeste / was neither puller downe off the church / nor disturber off the peace / but pleased god / and lefte a notable example to all posteritie off Kinges and Queenes / that they should not for any respecte of kindred / league / or allie / suffer any suche pollution in their landes .

The same also might be fall vnto them in gatheringe off the booke / for it maye well be / that there purpose was / by that tempere off popishe ceremonies with the gospell / partly the easelier to drawe the papistes to the gospell / ( whilest fearing that they would not frame them selues to yt yt should be some what framed vnto them ) partely to redeme peace therby / the breach wheroff they feared might haue ensued off suche a perfecte and throwgh chaunge / as the sinceritie off the gospell required . Yff this were there purpose they were studious of peace and buildinge of the churche / but yet erred in the meane : so it appeareth / that it being graunted which the A. demaundeth / yet my gathering off his argument is iustified .

To the 37. sect. pag. 30.

WHie should yow note here that Cyprians place was abused by the Papistes ? yt is besides your purpose / and contrary to the law to leaue your matche withe whom your are collered / and take yow to a stander by . For so vnhappelie is it come to passe / that the papistes / ( whose disorders and corruption off the discipline off Christ were here oppugned ) haue founde yow their champion to fight for them / whilest they looke on . And to what ende seruethe this headlesse arrowe / not shott / but picked owt against the Papistes ? They are ( god be praised ) substantially conuinced off the corruption off this place off Cyprian / by diuerse learned men : so that this bare affirmation / that Cyprian speakethe not off the vsurped authoritie off the Bishopp off Rome , besides yt is owt off season / dothe rather moue laughter / and confirme the enemie in his obstinacie / then giue him remedie against his error . But what weighethe this word ( for ) in our language / is it not a causall / and rendreth a reason off that which goethe before ? Whiche yow haue therfore by all lykelihoode lefte owt / that this poore shifte might haue some colour . the reste is answered before . Vnto the next I answere / that yt shall appeare when I come to that place / whether there be suche reasons or no.

In the next section he chargeth me in great wordes withe vntruthe / and askethe me where I finde in the ●3 . page this argument / that by that there was one offeuerie congregation / he prouethe that there was one ouer a whole prouince . To whom I answere that in that he concludethe an Archebishopp ouer a prouince / vpon Ignatius places whiche speake off a Bishop in euerie churche he makethe : the same argument whiche I haue made .

To the next page 32. being bare denials and false accusations / I answere not

Vnto the next sect . pag. 33.

LEauing his vntrue accusations / I answere / that where he saithe that the case off Luther and Zuinglius off Circumcision and preaching vnto gentilles / which I alledged are not like / for that they be substantiall pointes of religion / and these be not : it is his oulde cuckoes songe . For we offer to proue this also off the substance off Religion . And I browght the examples onely to shew / that to be vntrue which he goethe abowt to perswade / that all those which contende where the gospell is preached / are to be holden for disturbers . Thother difference which he placeth in that Luther and Zuinglius did that which they did in strininge abowt the Sacrament / by consent off theire seuerall magistrates : althoughe he dothe not make that appeare : yet I aske him what Zuinglius / &c. should haue done / iff the Magistrate would not haue suffred him to answere : should he haue suffred the truthe to be destitute off his defence ? Where he citeth owt off Zuinglius that the gospell is a sworde to deuide the faithfull , and therfore that this doctrine which hathe made a diuision in the church can not be good : I answere that althoughe he might well saye it to the Anabaptistes / and that yt so comethe to passe for the most parte : yet that can be no generall rule / consideringe that the preaching that circumcision was not necessarie / although it deuided those off the church which beleued it from those that did not beleue it : : yet those which did not beleue it / did not ther fore cease to be off the churche / and off the numbre off the faithfull .

The Sermon which our Sauior Christ had amongest his disciples / and those that beleued in him touching that his Io●●●● . fleshe was the true meate / and his bloude the true drinke / which who soeuer did not eate and drinke could not haue life in hym / did make suche a cut amongest the Disciples / that all ( sauing Iohn 6. 66. twelue ) departed from our Sauiour Christ . Yff they made a full departure and Apostasie / it is euident that the gospell cureth euen those which be in the church cleane from it : yff they did not vtterlie forsake the gospell / but offended at that sermon were not as before dailie folowers off our sauior Christ : yet it is cleare that that doctrine of the gospell / did make apartition betwene the twelue / and those other which went there waies / in that they beleued that sermon / which the other did not / they were taught / and the other offended . Wherupon it foloweth / that ether the doctrine which our Sauiour Christ preached / was not the truthe : or els the truthe may sometimes / deuide the faithfull amongest themselues .

I could cite diuerse other examples bothe owt off the Actes off the Apostles / and owt off S. Iohn : but these shall suffise to shew the vanitie off M. D. reason . And iff he will saye that iff he err / M. Zuinglius errethe withe him : he is vecelie vnworthy the name off a Deuine / that carethe not how ofte he fallethe / so he maye fall withe companie . Howbeit I haue shewed howe M. Zuinglius sayinge may be vpholden / and yet make nothinge for the confirmation off that which he would proue .

To the next . pa. 36.

IT fareth withe M. D. as withe malefactors : whiche hauing left somethinge behinde them wherby they may be knowen / for feare off that whiche foloweth / renounce it vtterlie to be theirs . But that the conclusion off all thes articles is as I haue set downe / that is to saye / that the authors off the admonition are either Anabaptistes / or in the waye to Anabaptisme ( albeit he here denie yt : ) I reporte me to the conscience off all those that shall reade him . And let his wordes be considered / which be that Anabaptiisme is almost plainely professed in the admonition , and so be iudged whether I haue trulie gathered his meaning yea or no. I haue spoken so plainelie in that the Answerer maketh so straunge / and weroff he requireth more open speache / that I can not speake plainlier . I vse the wordes which are worne in all schooles and writers which haue occasion to speake off these matters : I gaue that which I said light by examples . Notwithstandinge he can not see / how the Ministerie off England maye be commonlie and for the moste parte vnlawfull / and not right / and yet some founde whiche either maye haue there calling according to the word off god / diuerse from that which is commonly vsed : or els ( the lawfull callinge by the church ceasing ) haue it by an immediate calling from God . Iff M. D. will Ier. 3. To praefat in Iob. be so ignorant / as not to know how these two maye stand togither : let him be ignorant : if he delight in his blindnes / what should he doo with a guide .

After he saith my distinction is not good off lawfull and ordinarie : for that whatsoeuer is lawfull in a churche established , the same is ordinarie , and for proufe hereoff he addeth that common reason teacheth it : but what is that common reason / it had bene good yow had set it downe . This is a simple confutation which yow vse / to proue that in an established church / lawfull and ordinarie are all one . And iff I should replie and saye / that the distinction is good / and that common reason teacheth soo : if I light off as fauorable a reader as yow / my proufe will be as good as yours ▪ but this is but to abuse the time / and to delude the world . And it is the more vntollerable / that yow are not contente to haue said it once withowt proufe / onlesse it be also quoted in the margent / as thowghe we could not withowt some great damage / want this highe sayinge . And wher yowe make common reason the iudge hereoff ( althowghe she be an euill scholemistris oftentimes in these cases ) yet she teacheth here plainely against yow . For iff a man will consider it in naturall thinges / yt is euident in the birthe off children / that some thing is lawful / which is not ordinarie . It is nor ordinarie for a woman to bring foorthe thre or fower children at once / and yet it is lawfull . And if this common reason be considered also in politicall thinges : there it shall appeare likewise / that thinges are lawfull in a well gouerned and established common wealth / which are not ordina●rie As if order be taken that none shal clime the walles of the citie / and the citizens climinge the wall vpon the sodeine comming off the enemie / driue him backe : no man can denie but this acte is lawfull / and yet it is clere / that it is not ordinarie / being otherwise ( but in suche a case as this ) punishable .

But let these goo / and let vs see how this oracle agreeth withe the word off god . And first iff by a churche established / yow meane a church which hathe one vniforme order grounded owt off the word off god : yow take that for graunted which is the controuersie / for we denie that the churche off England is so established . But iff yow vnderstand by a churche established / a church of god wherin ( with other thinges well donne ) the corruptions which are in yt / are by common consent off those which rule the churche / agreed vppon : it is manifest that in suche a churche / there hath bene a calling lawful / which was not ordinarie . For before the comminge off our Sauior Christ / it is confessed that there was amangest the Iewes ( and in Ierusalem especially ) a churche of god established / the ordinarie ministeries off the priestes and Leuites vsed / th● prescribed sacrifices offred / the law read and taught : the corruptions of the churche were not the seuerall opinions of particular persons / but the vniforme decrees off those which had the gouernment . And yet there the lord raised vp Simeon / and Iohn Baptiste / whose vocations being extraordinarie / were notwithstanding lawfull . And that there be no hole for M. D. to hide his bouldnes off castinge forthe whatsoeuer taketh him first in the heade : it is to be shewed that in the moste orderlie established churches off god / and moste purelie reformed according to the worde of god / there haue bene ministers lawfull / and yet not ordinary .

In the wildernes the churche vnder the conduite off Moses and Aaron / was for the owtward face exactlie gouerned according to the rule that god had giuen theroff : and yet we reade off the 72. vpon whom the spirite of Prophesie fell / which was no ordinarie calling / as that which endured but for a time as the wordes of the texte ( howsoeuer they be otherwise translated ) do declare / which saith / that they added not Num. 11. 25. to prophesie anie more . When was the churche better established according to the rule off the worde of god / then in Dauids time ? and yet then ( besides himselffe ) there were diuerse extraordinarie ministers . For there was the Prophete Nathan / and Gad / withe others not off the Leuiticall order / whiche onelie was the ordinarie callinge off the churche . In the new Act. 15. Testament the churche off Antioche / ceased not after it was established / to haue the extraordinarie function off Prophetes . And onless . M. D. will saie / that all these functions were vnlawfull : he must confesse that in an established churche / ordinarie and lawfull are not all one . And albeit in these times where there is a churche established according to the word off god / the lord dothe not vse to raise vp anie suche extraordinarie ministerie / neither is it to be looked for : yet yt is a thinge which may come to passe / and whiche hathe nothinge in the worde off god to the contrarie . In steade of that yow saye Iff any church in England doo electe there minister otherwise then the lawes off the churche dothe permitt , it can not be excused off schisme : yow should haue said / otherwise then the worde off god dothe permitte . For iff it be shewed that that order established be corrupte / and the other whiche they folowed in the calling off their minister according to the word of god : then they neede not to be afraid off the slaunder off schisme . And where yow saye suche and suche parishes muste be loked vnto , verely they nede not therin be ashamed who looke vpon them . But If eare the looke yow meane is / to put owt their eye in taking awaie the Minister / that they should be the lesse hable to looke vnto your vnfaith full dealing withe the churches off God . Yow vnderstand not yow saie what I meane , when I saie that the choise off the Minister by the churche is suche , as the examples off the scripture do shew to haue bene before the Eldershipp and gouernment off the churche be established . I know in deede these thinges before haue bene vnhearde off by yow / whose ignorance the churche must rue . And now when yow are tolde it in so plaine wordes / as I nothinge dowbte but a childe off nine yeres oulde dothe vnderstand yt : yow can not yet comprehende it . Yt was the practise off the Pharises against our Sauior Christe / when they Iohn 10. 24. had nothing to answere / to charge him that he spake not plainlie / but propounded thinges dowbtfully that men coulde not tell where to haue him . For they come vnto him and saye / how longe doest thow holde vs in suspence ? Iff thow be Christ tell vs plainlie : as thowghe he had not tolde them plainlie before . This Pharisaicall practise the D. vseth against me diuerse times / gropinge at noone dayes / and complaining that I am not plaine and open enoughe / and going abowt to make men beleue / that I haue some thinge that I would not haue men vnderstand . And althoughe he confesse he vnderstand it not / yet he reprehendeth it / and so it commeth to him which S. Iude chargethe the false teachers withe in his tyme / that he Iud. 5. 10. speaketh euill off that he knoweth not . He asketh here for examples / and they stick still in his throate vnswalowed and vndigested / whiche the admonition gaue him : when he hathe ouercome those / then let him aske for more examples . And wheras he ascribethe as a great absurditie to vs / that we make the order off chusinge the minister before the eldershipp and gouernment be established , somewhat diuerse from that which is before , putting this florishe vppon it : that we allowe off all thinges owt off order thoughe against our owne order , so it be against common order : I will not goo abowte to confute that here / or to shew what good cause there is off this diuersitie ( it being sufficiently declared in that booke / whiche togither withe the right forme off gouernment commaunded owt off the worde off god / notethe the disorders off our churche ) onelie I will aske M. D. whether the consecration ( as it is called ) off the Archbishops and Bishopps at the first entrie off the Queenes maiestie / was the same altogither withe that whiche hathe bene sithens . And iff there were a difference betwene that and this : then in this great desire off his to stricke he care not how / nor after What sorte / his strooke is fallen vppon him selffe / and vpon those whom he vndertaketh to defend .

That the wordes off the admonition haue not that sense which is here ascribed vnto yt / I haue shewed in the proper place : neither will I touche it here / althoughe the A. set it twentie tymes before me . Yff he haue any thing to saye against that whiche I haue said / there it shall be considered . Althoughe here the D. was taken euen in the verie acte of false coyninge : yet he shameth not to denie yt / and withe that bloudnes and foreheade / that he is readie also to accuse him that taketh him withe the manner . He biddeth me peruse more diligentlie the wordes off M. Bullingar . I haue perused them / and set them downe / first in latin and then in Englishe : and iff I haue not turned them truelye / shew wherin I haue faulted : and iff they be truelie turned / then I demaunde againe / where these wordes be founde in any of those leaues of Bullinger whiche yow quote / That they could not teache truelie because they had great liuinges ? Yow saye they be word for word there , shew but the same sense or meaninge / that is to saye that this off M. Bullingers that the Anabaptistes said they could not teache the truthe whiche had any liuinge , is all one withe that whiche yow haue set downe / that they can not teache the truthe which haue great liuinges . And iff yow can not shew it : your falsification remaineth increased withe the open facing of an vntruthe . In deede if yow can put owt all men eyes / and take away from vs our senses / and all light off grammer / and off the knowledge off signification and proprietie off wordes : it will not be impossible for yow withe suche confident speaches as yow vse / to make vs beleue that all is turned vpside downe / and that the earth hangeth ouer our heades / and the heauens are vnderneath our feete . but yow deceiue your selffe / if yow thincke that yowe can beare downe the truthe so / or that yow can hide falshoode by adding another vnto yt / wherby it is made bigger and more easie to be sene then before .

The place added owt off M. Zuinglius Ecclesiastes / maketh nothing to the saluinge off your falshoode : and how farre our men ( as it pleasethe yow to call them ) are farre from all suche sayinges / I haue before declared . Yff yow shew as yow saye that I do giue to litle vnto the magistrate / I will confesse my faulte and confesse my felse detter vnto yow for yt . As for the cleanelines off my termes which I vse / they are not so foule as the thinges wherunto they are applied / and the prophet Malachy and S. Paule vsed them in honester matters then Mala. 2. 3. Phil. 3. 8. these are : so that iff the phrase off the Apostles and Prophetes be manerly enoughe / there is lesse godlinesse in yow / which in me houe thus accused them off inciuilitie . Vnto the nexte section pag. 40. I answere not .

To the 44. sect. pag. 41. I graunt the corruptions off the churche of England to be suche / that man in absteininge from the pollutions theroff / owght not so seuer him selfe from those open assemblies / wherein the eternall worde off the Lorde God is preached and the Sacramentes administred / althoughe not in that puritie which they owght to be . But I saye againe / that the name off conuenticles is to light and contemptuous for those meetinges . For here in is to be considered for what cause they departed . Which was not for the mis likinge off any thinge which Christ ordeyned / but throughe the mislike off that which Antechrist had browght in : not as the Anabaptistes did / and the D. surmiseth they did / for that they iudged them selues pure and others vnpure / but that they feared that their presence where suche corruptions were / should be allowance or confirmation off them : not so muche forthe hatred off the estate / off the churche off England / as forthe loue that they had to a better : nor so muche for the hatred off the Ministers whiche were vniustly set ouer them / as for the loue off those which were vnlawfullie by the Bishoppes taken from them . Thedorete declareth how the Catholikes which mainteined the faithe of the Nicenc councell / Lib. 3. c. 4 throughe affection to their teachers / deuided and seuered them selues into seuerall compaines : will the. A. faie that all their meetinges were conuenticles ? iff he do / he speakethe farre otherwise off them then Theodorete : and yet that diuision continued 86. yeares .

And iff this be off no authoritie whith yow / yet I would gladlie vnderstande / what yow will answere to the sentence off M. Caluin / which yow haue alleadged your selffe pag. ●1 . where he saithe : This honor is meete to be giuen to the worde off god and to the Sacramentes , that whersoeuer we see the worde off God truelie preached , and the Sacraments withowt superstition Ministred : there we maye conclude withowt all controuersie the church to be . Iff this meeting withe some disorder be the church off god / how is it a conuenticle ? Besides that it ought to haue bene considered off yow / whether they continued in that diuision / and whether being taught and shewed their error / they did obstinatelie perseuer : according to whiche circunstance that off Augustine owght to be expounded / for not euerie one which departethe for any cause whatsoeuer from that whiche is the churche off God / by and by is to be accoumpted no membre of the churche . For 1. Cor. 11. ca. 18. 19. seing that heresie is more heynous then a scisme / and yet heresie dothe not cut a man from the churche / onlesse he remaine obstinate : muche lesse can a scisme cause forthwith him that faulteth that waies / to be no membre off the churche . S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were : and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse : neiter dothe he cut them of from the church / but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them . And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe : yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe .

Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed ( as Mat. 1 . yow would beare vs in hande ) and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches / had not giuen the occasion of suche departure : the departure had bene more vntollerable / And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte : so muche yow encrease off the sinne of the bishops / which withowt iust cause / gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes / and the preaching off those brethren . for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions / and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe : but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow . And where yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes , or the Sacramentes administred : in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes / or like vnto them / bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither . And therfore if yow did purposely put that ( Or ) rather then and : then whilest yow wrote / your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren . And iff yow did not put yt purposely / but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the word off god is preached / and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely : I would gladlie know off yow what difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes / and the churche off God / seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff . Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde / yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection / rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe . Because it is your oulde wont / and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god : I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie / withowt any proufe owt off the word off god / yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche . yf yow bind so harde / and locke so fast : yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god / that the conscience ( which onely looketh vnto the word off god ) seinge it selffe in that daunger / might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered . The glosse and the Text varie here . For the one ( in saying that it standeth me good name vpon , to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche : The other by saying that thēre are not so manye , and that they are not iustified : do the indirectlie confesse it . And if yt were not confessed / the thinge is so notorious / that albeit I name them not / yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe / in that which hathe so manie witnesses . And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes : As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England / so it standeth not by any diligence / good foresight / or discipline off yours / that the churche swarmeth not with them / seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche / where ( with the leuaine off their false doctrine ) they may sowre not one towne / as it were thre peckes : but whole shires / as it were a whole heape / or fatte / or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey . And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined : yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined / but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded . Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge . Ephes. 4. 13. Coloss. 3. 10.

In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul ( wherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement ) he answereth / that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement , and broching new opinions , which is no answer to the question . For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions : yet we owght to correcte our oulde errors / as often as we are made vnderstande them . So that vnles he will saye / that those which beleue the gospell are withowte the daunger off error / in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche / &c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them ( boothe which are absurde ) : it muste needes folowe / that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader / whiche vppon that we haue chaunged Iudgement / woulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie . And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise / after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell / and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before : either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant / or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell / and established in a certeine order off gouernement / maye with owte feare off suspition off that līghtenes which he dooth surmise / displace the former order and place an other . Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing / sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie : I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is / betwene thes sayinges / the churche can not longe continewe withowt common welthes , and the churche maye be established withowt a Christian magistrate . Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate : then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth . But he shoulde vnderstande / as longe as their be magistrates / althowghe they be not onely vnchristian / but Tyrannicall and persequuting : yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance / so ouercometh all their malice : that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement / some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche . The answer which his glosse asketh for / towching churlishe answering ( althowghe yt deserued none ) is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante / but I referred him in the answer / to the seuenth article .

Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing . For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe ( wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie ) I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off ●he churche lately set forthe / where this is answered at large . Vnto the fowre nexte sections I answer nothing / sauing that where in the seconde sec● pa. 5● he saith that master Caluin in his booke against the Anabaptistes affirmethe / that the churche as towching the external pollicie can not be perfecte : I doo assure my selffe that ( as in other places ) so heere / he hathe vntrewly saide off Maister Caluin . And yt cannot b● vnknowne but in Moses and the Apostl●● times / ther was a perfecte patrum of the owtwarde gouernernment off the churches / bothe giuen off the lorde and receiued off the churches . neither can there be any parte of the owtwarde gouernement off the churche / assigned by the answerer / which draweth any suche impossibilitie withe yt as he imagineth . And iff he saye / that ther were faultes committed againste those perfecte patrones : that is not to the purpose . For the faultes off particular persons doo no more ouerthrowe the perfection off the gouernment whiche was receiued : then the faultes off the officers in our churche againste the lawes theroff / are to be imputed vnto the lawes them selues wherby that gouernment standeth . And as for the examples off the churches off Corinthe and Galatia whiche he alledgeth : they rather make against him . For that disorder whiche the Apostle chargeth them withe / being a slyding backe / and falling awaye from that estate wherin they were firste off all set by the Apostell : argueth that there was a time / when the contrarie off those disorders had place in their churches .

In the nexte section he alledgeth diuers examples to proue / that enemies one withe another conspire against the trewthe , whiche no man do which / and where I shewed that the churches frindes / may doo some thinges which some of the churches enemies doo / against him ( whiche in that the admonitors doo certaine thinges with the Papiste and Anabaptistes / woulde giue to vnderstande / that they are conspired with them ) : he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the churche in thinges whiche are againste the churche , which is a manifest begging off that whiche is in controuersie . Towching that which I sayde he hathe tawght / that there is no commaundement in the scripture to put heretikes to deathe : althowghe he denie that euer he did so : yet beside that he mainteineth the same in the seconde treatise ( where he leaueth yt in the libertie off the magistrate whether he will doo yt or no / and reiecteth all the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe as Iewis he : there be moo witnesses off this / then his bare deniall is hable to beare downe . to whose knowledge I wil so reporte me in this behalfe / that if they confirme not the same : I refuse not to beare the blame off that reporte . where he saieth there is no cause that he shoulde be better thought of emonge the papistes , which teache and practise the contrarie : althoughe the Papistes abuse this doctrine to the horrible murther off the church / yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god / and not the Papistes : and yow by staying the course off yt / nourishe them to the daye off slawghter / and shedding off the bloude off the sainctes off god / which is their feaste / and whiche they so greatly delight in / and longe after . In althat which foloweth vnto the first tractate / which beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worthe the answere . And as for that whole tractate / because yt perteineth to the question off lordeshipp / and dominion off the Archebishopps ouer the bishops / and off the Bishopps ouer the reste off the Ministers : yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate / where the answerer shall receiue his replie

What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders .

Chapter 1. pag. 77.

THe playster wherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche . by these wordes placing in the churche , will not cleane . For to let pas the meanig off the admonition ( whiche he shoulde haue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt / and not as he doothe ( contrary to all lawe of disputation ) bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth ) I saie to let that pas : yt appeareth by bis plaine wordes / that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition / but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche , and tollerating in the churche . For himselffe confesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke / that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the churche / whiche the lorde himself in his worde com̄aundethe . and ascribing this iudgement vnto them he afterwarde expoundeth / that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide : that nothing shulde be tolerated , &c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed , &c , ( as the A. confessethe : ) and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche ( as he doothe also confesse : ) yt must folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition / was not ( as he saithe ) that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde . And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion . For in that he saithe / that their meaning was ( so farr as he coulde gather ) that nothing shoulde be placed , &c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoulde be tolerated , &c. he chargeth them farther / then he was then hable to gather off their booke .

Afterwarde he chargethe me / withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion / for that I say : that many thinges are commaunded in the scripture which are not expressed in yt . He neded not to haue trauailed far / to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe : iff he woulde haue but considered / the wordes which folowe in the same diuision : that god hathe set before vs in his worde , a perfect patrone off his churche . But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache . Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer / and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gram̄er schoole doo well knowe / that their is difference betweene expressed and conteined , betweene expressed and included , betweene expressed and implied , betweene expressed and gathered : He woulde neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies . And as for that which I set downe / I did yt vppon Good groundes . For who is there which knoweth not / that thes thinges / that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade / that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures : are not expressed / but onely conteined in the worde off God ?

And iff proofe must be had off thinges ( which is to greate shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off ) let the answerer know / that lerned diuines speake afte this sorte / Their wordes be thes . Off the father , of the Acta Ratilboncusia . Sonne , and holy ghoste , there is one nature one essence and thre persons : In Christ our lorde there be two natures and one person , and many other thinges which the catholike churche doothe receiue , rather layde oute by the interpretation Quàm ipsarum scripturarum verbis expressa ipsis tamen scripturae verbis implicida . off the Scriptures / then expressed in the wordes off the Scripture . Here the answerer may lerne / that certaine off the cheiff pillers off our Religion / by the Iudgement off this councell are not expressed in the worde off God / and yet notwithstanding bothe conteined in the worde off God / and commaunded to be beleued .

And where he saithe that he coūntethe that expressed in the scripture when yt is either in manifest wordes conteined , or theroff gathe red by necessary collection : I answer / that I suppose / that there was neuer writer / holie nor prophane / that euer spake so : and that yt byddethe defiance bothe to devinitie / and humanitie / being forged ( as yt is to be feared ) contrary to his owne knowledge / onely that he might giue some colour vnto that absurdytie / which he woulde so gladlye fasten on me . I saie that it is against his owne knowledge : forasmuche as in his former booke / and euen in the nexte diuision / ( which is in the 78 / page off this his later booke ) he confessethe this difference off being expressed in the worde / and gathered off it / which is the same in effecte which I haue saide . For he saithe that nothing owght to be tollerated in the churche ' &c. onles yt be expresly conteined in the worde off god or maye manifestly therof be gathered . Here he plainely opposeth as member off one diuision / expressely conteined , and manifestly gathered : now in this later booke cleane contrarily / he maketh gathered to be a part of expressed . And in an other place off his former booke / ( as it appeareth in the 24. page off his booke ) he saithe : and none off these circumstances are commaunded in the scripture , or by necessarie collection theroff may be gathered . Where he supposeth some thinge necessarie to saluation / which is not commaunded / namely which may be necessarylie gathered of the scripture . And iff those wordes commaunded in the scriptures ( which are generall ) will not conteine al that which is necessary ( as his diuision teacheth : ) how much les will thes wordes / expressed in the scriptures , compas them ? and iff commaunded and forbidden be all one with expressed ( as he here affirmeth ) : then did he absurdely to make gathered off the scriptures / to be an opposite member vnto commaunded . That which I sayed off the argument off authoritie off a man / to be neither good affirmatiuely / nor negatiuely / farther then to induce thereader into somelikinge / or mislikinge / and not to haue force to compell : is apparaunt vnto al which haue any sparcke of iudgement . That which is broug● out off Aristotle / is to no purpose : and it maketh also against the A. Forasmuche as where Aristotle saithe / that credite is to be giuen to him that is cunninge : he speaketh off thinges / which haue a likelihoode / and may be disputed off on bothe sydes : and not of thinges / which are to be receiued without gainesaying . And I merueile that the A. will not see / that amongest men / the cunningest in any profession / haue in diuerse thinges bene off those which followed them iustly founde fauls with . And if he will bothe sticke to Aristotle / and interpret● him as he dothe / that a man ought to beleue euerie one , in that as to and profession where in he is conninge : then euerie learned Deuine in his profession / is to be beleued whatsoeuer he saithe . Which beinge absurd / and seinge it hathe bene before shewed / that an argument of the authoritie of man affirmatiuely is not good : let vs holde that for somuche as man / cannot come ( through his infirmitie ) vnto the perfection of any thinge / ( which reason being assigned of me / is vntouched of the A. ) and forasmuche as the giftes off god / are giuen in measure / and not in perfection : that an argument off ●he authoritie off man / can not enforcevs / and that it is proper vnto the Aposties / and Prophetes / whom the Lorde had chosen to be his notaries / and whose handes he helds continually / to be without the hazarde off errour .

To the places which I alledged owte off the worde off god / to proue that an argument drawne of the authoritie off the scripture negatiuely / is good : he answereth / that the examples which I bringe / be of thinges of great importance / and forbidden in other places of the Scripture . I graunt they are so / and that maketh much against hym : for that the Lorde hauinge this aduantage against the Israelites / off charginge them that they had doone contrarie vnto his commaundement / chose rather to saye after this sorte / that they had doone that which he had not commaunded , therby to teache his to hange vppon his mowthe . And the answerer owght to haue considered / that the reason is generall whiche the prophetes vse : which otherwise shoulde be no reason at all . And it maye be shewed / that the same manner off argument / hathe bene vsed in thinges which are not off the substance off saluacion or damnation / and wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrary . In Iosuah / the children of Israell are charged by the Prophete / that they asked not counsaile off the mouthe off the lorde / when they entred into couenant with 9. Iosuah 14. the Gabeonites : and yet that couenant was not made contrarie vnto anie comnaundement of god . For howsoeuer yt seemeth to some / that vpon the wordes off Moses / they owght to haue bene put to deathe / being of those nations which dwelte in the inheritaunce off the people off god : yet iff yt be considered what the causes were / why they might not enter in to league with them ( which was / lest they dwellinge amongest them shoulde drawe them to a false worship of god : ) yt will not be Deut. 20. harde to vnderstande / but that withe condition off yelding themselues / bothe to the subiection of the Iewes / and to their institution in the Religion of god ( as thes did ) they might be receiued .

There was in deede difference betweene these nations / which dwelled in the lande off the inheritaunce off the children of Israel / and which dwelt rounde abowte them . For where the Iewes might make league with the nations rounde abowte them / withowt anie their submission vnto Religion : they coulde not doo so with the Cananites / &c. And where in other nations after peace refused / the children off Israell hauing taken a cytie / owght to kepe a liue women and children in these ether resistinge them / or not submitting themselues vnto the seruice of god / it was not lawful to spare ether wemen or children . But that it was simplie vnlawful for them / to make league with them with any condition / I thinke yt can not be shewed . for them Iosue and the princes shoulde haue doone euil / to haue kepte their othe with them / after they had vnderstanded their frawde / considering that all othes made againste the com̄aundement of god / are to be broken . And if it be saide / that Iosue and the princes did euil in keping their othe : the approbation off that facte is apparant in an other place / where the 1. Sam. 21. vengeance for the lorde / fell vppon all Israell by famyn / and vpon the housse off Saul particulerly / by executing those off his familie : because the gabeonites / had bene ( contrary to the tenure of the othe made with them ) put to deathe . And vnles this 2. Iosue be admitted / we shall be compelled to condemne the spies / which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot : and Salomon / 1. Reg. 9 : which receiued the Amorytes / that voluntaryly yelded them selues vnto his obedience / and withall vnto the obedience off the lorde / as it maie appeare in the bookes off Esra / and Nehemias : where their posteritie ( which are there called the sonnes off the seruantes of Salomon ) hauing of olde time / growne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Israel : ioyne them●elues with them in the restoring of the temple . 2. Sam. 7. 7. Wheruppon the A. may vnderstande / that the Scripture reasonethe negatiuely againste the Israelites / in a thinge wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie .

Moreouer we reade / that when Dauid had taken this counsell / to builde a temple vnto the lorde : albeit the lorde had 1. Chron. 17. 6. reuealed before in his worde / that there shoulde be suche a standing place / where the arke off the couenante / and the seruice off god shoulde haue a certeine abydinge : and albeit there was no worde off god / which forbad Dauid to builde the temple : yet the lorde ( with commendation off his good affection / and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie ) concludeth againste Dauid his resolution to builde the temple with this reason : namelie / that he had giuen no commaundement off this / who shoulde builde yt .

Where he woulde grounde this answer / vpon the wordes off Zuinglius : yt is manifest that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptistes / not for reasoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture / but that they reasoned negatiuely off an acte / or an example . And there is great difference betwene them that saye / it is no conteined / or it can not be concluded off any place in the scripture : therefore yt is vnlawfull / and betweene the Anabaptistes / which reason that therefore the baptisme off children is vnlawfull because it is not founde in the Scriptures / that the Apostles did babtize any children . Wheras iff they had reasoned thus / that the baptisme off yonge children was vnlawfull / forasmuche as yt was not commaunded in the scriptures : althowghe the grounde off their reason had bene false : yet their conclusion had bene faste and sure . And therfore iff the answerer wolde haue delte trewly / he shoulde not haue fathered this answer of Zuinglius / whiche hathe no suche thinge ) but off the Papistes whose proper defense this is againste those / whiche manifie the sufficiencie of the worde off God / as that whiche giueth men addresse / vnto all thinges whiche are to be doone .

Maister Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salusbery In the 29. diuision of the first Article . / with this kinde off reasoning / whiche the answerer obiectethe againste vs so often / vnto whom the Bishopp answereth . The Atgument Maister Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely : which is taken to be goode , when soeuer proufe is taken off godds worde and is vsed not onely by vs , but also by many of the catholike fathers . And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. disputeth negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture / for that the Apostel vppon the wordes off Moses in thy seede and not seades , concludeth that our sauiour Christe was vnderstanded . likewise he shewe the how Origine / reasoneth after the same sorte . And a litle after / sheweth the reason why the argumente off authoritie off of the scripture negatiuelie / is good / namely / for that the worde off God is perfecte . In another place vnto Maister Harding In the defence off the Apologie 5. parte ca. 15. diuision 1. casting him in the teethe / with the negatiue Argumentes : he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus / Chrisostome / Loo / which reasoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the scripture The places which he alledgeth / be very full / and plaine in generalitie / withowt any suche restraincte as the A. imagineth / as they are there to be seene .

Wheras he saithe / that the reason that God coulde giue a perfecte patrone off the churche / therfore he hathe so doone / doothe no more folow then in there all presence off the Sacrament : he doothe but trifle withe his reader . For I reason not off the bare power off God / but haue ioyned his will with his power . For my wordes be / that the Lorde determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche , is bothe hable to doo yt , and hathe doone yt . Where yt is euidente vnto all men / that I grounde my reason not onely off the habilitie off the lorde / but vpon his determination : not onely off that which he coulde doo / but off that he hathe doone .

Diuision 2. pag. 79.

VNto that wherin he was towched / for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding / in that bothe matters off gouernement / and matters of faithe ( which he deuideth / and by diuiding opposethe ) meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Pope : he answerthe not . And yet hauing nothing to answer / he findeth him selfe the talke / of a whole sheete of paper . For first off all / how ridiculous ys it that he saithe / he did not put a case but an example ? Then / whether perteines it / that he settethe doune / what the Papistes saye off the pope , what the pope doothe himselffe ? That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest / that no gouernement owght to be receiued / direcly againste the worde off God : that he repeatethe / and repeateth againe / his negatiue argument of the popes supremacie : are they not all strey spreaches / fraied owt of ther wittes / carying not the weight of a fether / to the profe off any thinge in controuersie : hauing no knot / either with the cause / or one of them with another ?

Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies / and gouernement / off substantiall and accidentall / of externall and spirituall / are altogether vnprofitable / brought to auoide his apparant ignorance in diuiding . Likewise his dalying in his questions what gouernement I meane ( which is apparant in the discours off all our bookes off boothe sydes ) also his groping at none dayes / by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation , which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusion / and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision . Afterwarde / when he setteth him selffe to proue / that there is no one finde off gouernement certaine and vnuariable in the churche : let yt be obserued / how loosely and childishelie he doothe yt . For beside the firste reason / which is a begging of that whiche is in question and the later reason / drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage / vnles ( with master Gwalter ) he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary / nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate : all the reste of his authorities / drawne owte of M. Caluine / the heluetian confession / Bullinger / are quite beside the cause . For they are to proue / that there may be a churche withowte excommunication . As thowghe the question were / what thinges the churche ( of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God ) may wante / and yet be the churche of god : and not / what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off God . Or as thowghe the question were / how sicke the churche might be / and yet liue : how meimed / and yet not slaine : and not what are the meanes / which the lorde hathe appointed / for a whole and wholesome constitution off the bodie of the churche . And iff excommunication or the one forme off gouernement were not necessarie for the churche / because the churche which wanteth them / maie be the churche : by the same reason a man maie saye / that the holie sacrament of the supper of the lord / is not necessarie for the churche : seing that in that companie / where the worde of god is onelie preached and receiued / there is the churche off god . And hereof also the practise is to be sene in some places / where the magistrate ( according to the churches / the preaching off the word off god ) for certeine occasisions / will not accorde / the ministring off the supper . Last off all / M. Beza shewing the true markes of the churche / addeth to the two former / the discipline framed accordinge to the word / con. 5. 7. so that whatsoeuer necessitie commeth vnto the worde and Sacraments in that they are notes / the same commeth also to the discipline by M. Bezaes Iudgement . Where he quarrelleth with me / as thowghe I had concluded off particulars onelie : beside that he owght to know / that man maie conclude a particular / either affirmatiuely or negatiuely in any figure / not onelie off particulars but off singulars : he must vnderstand / that a particular instance ouerthroweth him / which opposeth matter of ceremonies / and gouernement / vnto matters off faithe / and saluation / generally and withowt exception . His accusation against me ( for callinge the holie Sacramentes ceremonies ) considering that kind off speache / is receiued amongest the diuines / and I had no further occasion to speake off them / then to shew they were ceremonies : is vtterlie vnworthie any answere .

To the third Diuision pag. 81. The Answerer broileth thinges togither off the infinite mercie off god / and of repentance in a moment / of his vnsearchable iudgementes / hauing neither heade nor fote in his talke . And althowghe he would seme to saie somewhat against me : yet in deede he confirmeth that which I haue set downe . For when he saithe / that the doctrine of free will being damnable of it selffe / dothe not preiudice the mercie off God . iff he meane that the merrie off God embraceth him that being infected with that error / dothe by no especiall repentaunce call it backe ( as that which is vnknowen vnto him : ) then he fullie agreethe with me . Iff he meane that vppon speciall repentance / and chaunge off minde in that pointe / he obteine mercie : he speaketh truelie / but to no purpose off that matter whiche we haue in hande .

Therfore to bringe some light vnto those thinges / which the A. withe his disorder / darkeneth : it is to be vnderstanded / that first off all euerie transgression off the law / be it neuer 6. Rom. so litle off it selffe and in the owne nature / is damnable . Secondlie it is to be obserued / that no synne vnto those whiche are throwghe faithe grafted into the bodie of Christ / can bringe 8. Rom. damnation : as also withowt faithe ( I speake off those whiche haue vnderstanding ) there is none which bringeth not certaine deathe / the mercie off god ( althoughe neuer so infinite ) being shut vp against all vnbeleuers . Which I therfore add / because the D. speaketh so confusedlie off the infinitenes off Gods mercie . In the third place / it must be seene / what faultes vtterlie destroye the faith which is in Christ . For it is cleere / that those that doo not pull vp the rootes / and rase the foundations of faithe : can by no meanes shut the kingdome of heauen / against those which are infected with them : althowg he they do neuer come to the knowledge off them . Wherin I thinke that no man off any Iudgement / will denie that errors not in the hearers onelie / but also in the teachers / maye be suche as do not destroye the foundation . And this thing maie be 1. Cor. 3. 12. Col. 3. 19. 2 , Pet. 2. 1. easelie shewed / by diuerse places off scripture / where this distinction off errors ( which destroie the foundations / and which do not : which hold the heade / and which do not : which are deadly / and which are not : ) may be easely gathered .

It remaineth onelie to see / whether the erorr off fre will be amongest them whiche do not rase the foundations ( as I haue alledged ) or no. And when as one which mainteineth fre will / maie holde the fre remission off sinnes in the grace off god / and likewise holde / that that grace is shewed vnto him for Christes sake ( these being the growndes off our saluation ) it must needes folowe / that fre will dothe not rase the foundations . For there is no necessitie / that he who saithe that the spirite off God / by the new birthe hathe giuen him power to die to synne / and to liue vnto righteousnes : should also affirme / that it is giuen him off merite . In the opinion that S. Peter had of his owne strenght and habilitie to die for Christ / Math. 26. ●3 . 35. entangled ( as it may seeme ) with ignorance off this pointe off Religion / touching the bondage off mans will : he ceased not therfore / to haue a true and iustifyinge faith in the sonne off God / wherunto our sauiour Christ himselfe had giuen testimonie . And if their were not sufficient holde in this example off Peter / against the A : yet in the greke doctors / and some also off the latin / ( as in Ierome especially / which did not by one acte or two as Peter / but by argumentes and open sayinges / declare there liking of fre will ) this is manifest . for dare the. A. saie / of all them that they beleued not the fre remission off synnes For Iesus Christes sake / or helde not the foundation of religion / all that time that they taught in the churche of god / and helde that opinion ? And if he graunt that they had faithe : then I conclude that euen then / when they helde fre will / they helde the foundations . which is not so in the example off beleuinge / that the masse is a sacrifice for the quicke and the deade / whiche he vnskilfullie comparethe withe this error off free will : consideringe that that ouer throweth / and turnethe vppside downe the materiall cause off our saluation / which is the sacrifice off the sonne off god / that he once for euer in his owne person / offred for the sinnes off the worlde . And therfore that error can not be / in any in whom there is faithe .

I brought three reasons off comparison / to proue that the worde off god is a rule to square out / whatsoeuer thinge is to be doone in the orderinge off the church : and the A. in callinge them bare wordes / hathe made a quicke dispatche off them / sauinge that his marginall note / dothe kepe the wonte off vntrue surmisinge . which vpon that I compare the gouernement / with chaines and bracelets / saithe : that I account yt more pretiouse / then the doctrine . As iff the apparell which clothethe the nakednes / were not alwayes more necessarie / and sometime also more preciouse / then those iewels . And if I had not this defence : yet if I had fallen vppon an aduersary which had not bene disposed to trifle / the lawe off comparisons / ( which exacteth not likelihood in all thinges / but onely in that where in the comparison is made ) would haue cleared this margent .

To the Diuision 4. pag. 84. The Admonition saide / that nothinge ought to be established in the church , which is not commaunded by the worde off God : the A offended hewith / condemned this sayinge : the replie shewethe / how the saying of the A. is maintenable / namely for that thoughe there be not expresse wordes for euery thinge / which may be established : yet there are generall commaundementes / whereby all thinges which can fall into any Ecclesiasticall consultation / are to be directed . The A. ( to mainteine his sodeine / and vnaduised condemnation ) saithe : that in those thinges which are varied by time / and other circumstances / and whereoff there is no precise determination in the worde off god : yt is enoughe that they be not against the worde of God . So that this is the difference betwene the Adm. and him : they will haue those thinges not onely not to be against the worde / but to be grounded vpon the worde : and he saiethe / it is enough they be not against the worde . Wherin iff there were no diuersitie / the Ans. is in fault : which in his greedines off findinge fault / condemneth that in the Adm. which he is constreined to allowe off . But in deed they are not all one . For albeit it can not be / but that which is not agreable vnto the worde off God / is against the worde off God : and off the otherside / that which is not against the worde off God / is agreable vnto yt : yet he that so saithe / that certaine thinges must be doone not against the worde / that he wil not also accorde / that they should be doone accordinge to the worde : gyuethe thereby to vnderstand / that there is some star or light off reason / or learninge or other helpe / whereby some act may be well doone / and acceptably vnto God / in which the worde off God was shut out / and not called to counsaile : as that which either coulde not / or neede not / giue any direction in that behalfe . Nowe in this later boocke / and in this diuision he saithe : that nothinge ought to be doone in the churche , but accordinge to the true meaninge off the worde . And afterwarde saithe / that he agreethe vnto this sentence off mine : that in makinge orders , and ceremonies off the churche , it is not lawfull to doo what men liste : but they are bownde to followe the generall rules off the scripture / that are giuen to be a squire / whereby those are to be squared out . And thus in the end the A. is constreined / to yelde him selfe to that / which he hathe before founde fault with . for if nothinge may be doone in makinge orders off the churche / but accordinge to the generall rules off the scripture / and those generall rules be commaundementes : it folowethe / that nothinge may be doone in makinges orders for the church / but accordinge to the commaundement off God . Which is that which the Adm. did set downe .

And wheras he woulde make the reader belieue / that we haue giuen backe / in that we confesse certeine orders may be established in the churche / which are not expressed in the worde off God : I haue shewed / howe the Adm. is very vntruely charged with that sentence : there beinge neither the same / nor the valew off those wordes to be founde in it . This therefore beinge agreed on off bothe sides : we might haue here shut vp these controuersies / sauinge that the A. holdinge this doctrine in wordes / dothe notwithstandinge in deede continue the siedge against it : in that all those places / which I haue alledged for proof off it / he doothe by shamefull and open corruptions / essaye to ouerthrowe .

And to the first place / whiche is that the wisdome of god in his worde / doothe teache men euery good way / and therefore 2. Proue . the way which ought to be taken in the establishement of orders / and ceremonies in the churche : he asketh me in great scorne / what that maketh to the purpose ? in deede to proue that which he vntruly / and contrarie to my playne wordes / in his answer to al my argumentes surmiseth to be my pourpose ( that is / that no lawe ought to be made in the churche / which is not expressed in the worde ) I say to proue this / I graunt it is not sufficient : but to proue that all thinges owght to be doone in the church / not onely not against the com̄aundement / but also accordinge to the commaundement of God ( which was that which I propounded / and he denied ) it is more sufficient / then he is hable to answer . His answer also / which supposeth this sentence directed vnto princes and magistrates ( onely belike in that he saithe my sonne ) is vttered withowte all iudgement : consideringe that Salomon / by that title speaketh vnto all the children off god / of what callinge soeuer they be / as it is manifest by the writer to the Hebrues . 12. 5.

To the next argument / grounded vppon the authoritie off Saint Paul / ( which is / nothinge can be doone to the glorie 1. Cor 10. 1. Tim. 4. off God / withowt ebedience : all thinges doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God / are withowt obedience : therefore nothinge doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God / can be doone to the Glory off God ) to this argument / which he calleth vndigested : he answereth by repetition off my wordes / and that Saint Paul● meaninge is / that nothinge be doone against the worde . Which how absurde an answer it is / when bothe that is the question / and I haue expressly vrged the Testimonye off the worde off God to be required / let all men Iudge .

The next argument / which he saithe is euill framed / is apparant . Wheresoeuer faithe is wantinge / there is synne : in euery action not commaunded / faithe is wantinge : therfore in euery action not commaunded / there is sinne . To this be answereth : that the wordes off Saint Paul ( not to be 14. Rom. off faithe ) signifie that we ought to doo nothinge / against our conscience . Which both is very absurde / and ouerthroweth the sense off the Apostle . For hauinge shewed / that he which doothe any thing doubtingly / is condemned : he assigneth immediately / this to be the reason / because he dooth it not off faithe . So that the Apostle calleth that doone not off faithe / which is doone doubtingly : But he is sayde to doo agaynst conscience / which hauinge his knowledge / and persuasion setled / goeth agaynst yt .

And where he saithe / that the wordes going before ( which are Blessed is he that condemneth not hym selffe , in the thing which he allowethe ) do proue that sense off his : it is spoken withowt all consideration off the place For how commeth yt to passe / that he rather referrethe these wordes off Saint Paule not to be off faithe , to this sentence / which is farther remoued : then to that off doing with dowbte / which goeth immediately before / yea wherwith it is coupled in the same verse / withe a coniunction causall ? And althowghe the reason sometime be referred / vnto that which goethe farther off : yet that is bothe rarely / and then / when by no meanes yt can agree withe that / wich goeth immediatelie before . Which can not be here / considering especially / that it could not be vnknowen / but that he which dothe against his conscience / sinneth / wherby the Apostle should neede make any proufe of it . but off him which doothe a thing staggering and waueringe / ther might be some dowbte / whether he synned . and therfore the Apostle hauinge said / that he is condemned in so doinge : addethe this reason / for that he dothe it not of faithe , which beinge sinne / is therfore damnable .

Where he saithe / that if a man should do nothinge wheroff he hathe not assurance by the word off God , that he dothe well : that therby should be ouerthrowne Christian libertie in indifferent thinges : the faulte is / in his want off vnderstanding . For euen those thinges that are indifferent / and maye be donne / haue their fredome grounded off the word off God : so that onlesse the word off the lord / either in generall or especiall wordes / had determined off the free vse off them : there could haue bene no lawfull vse off them at all . And when he seethe / that S. Paule speaketh here off ciuill / priuate / and indifferent actions / as off eating this or that kind of meate ( then the which their can be nothing more indifferent : ) he might easely haue seene / that the sentence off the Apostle / reacheth euen to his case / off taking vpp a straw . For iff this rule be off indifferent thinges / and not off all : I would gladlie know off him / what indifferent thinges it is giuen off / and off what not . And the same also I require off him in the other generall rule / off doing all thinges to the glorie off god . For iff that reache vnto all indifferent thinges it must needes comprise also this action of his . Which iff it doo / then as no man can glorifie God / but by obedience / and here is no obedience / but where there is a worde : it must followe / that their is a worde .

And semethe it so strange a thinge vnto him / that a man should not take vp a straw / but for some pourpose / and for some good pourpose ? or will he not giue the lord leaue / to require off a Christian man / endewed with the spirite off God / as muche / as the heathen require off one / which is onelie endued with reason / that he should do nothing / wheroff he hathe not some ende / and that in all his doinges whether publicke / or priuate / at home / or abroade / whether withe him selfe / or with an other / he owght to haue regard / whether that which he dooth / be donne in dutye or no ? And iff the taking vp off a straw / be donne to good ende / either off helping him selfe / or others / regarde of profite / or pleasure / or what els : it hathe testimonie off the word off God . And if it haue not an ende / and a Good ende : will not the A. giue the lord leaue to condemne that in his infinite wisdome / which men by the light off a litle wisdome / do accompte folishe ? or will he be so iniurious to the iustice off god / that he maie not iudge that to be synne / whiche they saye is donne against dutie ? What also ? that some euen off those heathen men / haue tawght / that nothing owght to be donne / wheroff thow dowbtest whether Cic. 1. off . it be right or wronge . Whereby it appeareth / that euen those which had no knowledge of the word off God : did see mutche of the equitie of this / which the Apostle requireth of a Christian man : and that the cheifest difference is / that where they sent men for the difference off good and euill / to the light off reason / in suche thinges : the Apostle sendeth them / to the scoole of Christe in his worde / which onely is hable thoroughe faith / to giue them assurance / and resolution in their doinges .

And althoughe to mainteine his former vnaduisednes he had rather saie / that men should doo nothinge but which they beleue Caluin vpon the cpistle , and Insti . l. 3. ca. 15. s . 5. not to displease god , then with the godly learned to say / that they ought to doo nothinge / which they are not assuredly perswaded of / that it pleaseth God : yet euen this / which he sayeth off beleuinge that it doth not displease God , I would knowe off him / Where he can fetche the grounde off / but in the worde off God . For iff he doo beleue / that it doeth not displease God / and beleife be not but in respect of the worde off god : it must followe / that he hathe some word off God / which tellethe him / that that dothe not displease the Lorde .

And where he accusethe this doctrine / of bringing-men to dispere : he dothe it wronge . For when doubtinge is the waye to dispere / againste whiche this doctrine offrethe the rēmedie it muste needes be / that it bringeth comforte / and ioye / to the conscience off man .

The reason which I assigned / why it is necessarie to haue the worde off God / goo before vs in all our actions ( namely for that wee can not otherwise be assured / that they please God ) : he dothe not once touche . His seconde signification of these wordes / not to be of faithe , that is not to be an article of faithe : if it had any grace in it / yet it is merely idle in this place / and helpe the no more / to the vnderstanding of the place of Saint Paul nowe in hande / then smoke dothe the eyes . And where in the ende he saieth / that thes places doo proue as muche for all cyuill actions / as for ecclesiasticall : and that I can no more proue by thes / that a certaine forme off discipline is appoincted in the Scripture / then that euerie ciuill action is precisely commaunded to be doone without any change : I graunt it : neither did I alleadge them therefore / but was driuen into this disputacion / onely by occasion before alleadged in the beginninge off this diuision / and manifestly expressed in the next .

7. Diuision pag. 86.

WHere as I alledged / that in making ceremonies and orders off the churche / this owght to be obserued / which 1. Cor. 10. sainct Paul requireth / that they offende none / but especially that they offende not the churche off God : the first exception off the answerer is / that this rule prescribeth the dutye vnto priuate men , and not generally vnto the churche . As thoughe the rule were not generall / or this thinge were prescribed vnto them / in respect of that they were priuate / and not in respect off beinge Christians / whether priuate / or publicke : in which case that which is commaunded to one ●s commaunded to ahor as if the Lorde were so carefull in priuate offences / and careles in publike . And iff offence ought to be taken heede off in thinges doone withowt many witnesses / withowte all countenaunce off autoritie / and once onely : how muche more owght yt to be taken heede off / in the orders off the church / which haue so many lookers on / so greate continuance / and suche force off autoritie to strike yt deeper in ?

His seconde exception is / that by this meanes the orders off the churche , shoulde be subiecte to one or twoo mens liking , or misliking . which answer procedeth off two foule an ouersight / and wante off vnderstandinge off the worde offense , For Saint Paule by offense / doothe not meane displeasure / or discontement : but that wherby / occasion is giuen to anie / of synne and transgression off the lawe off God / which maie as well be with alowance / as disalowance / when all are pleased with that which is doone / as when they are displeased . And therfore in that signification which Saint Paul and our sauiour Christ before him take this word offense / the churche owghte to Mat. 5. 29. prouide / that there be no offense giuen to one alone .

His thirde exception / that I added this worde especiallie to the texte , is a mere cauill . For althowghe I vsed that worde / more then is in the texte : yet I bothe kepte the meaning / and layde y● more open vnto the symple reader . And wher he sa●th / that the Apostell would haue men more carefull off offending those whiche are not yet come to the churche , then those which be off yt : yt is altogether vntrew / and not onely againste the meaning off the Apostle / but against the generall rule off loue : wherin thes degrees are assigned / that we ( leuing all men ) should especially loue those / which are members off the same bodye with vs . Whereupon yt foloweth / that the fruictes off loue ( wheroff this is one off the principall / that we ●iue no occasion off offense ) owght rather to be performed toward them off the churche / then towardes straungers . And y● being certaine which S. Paul saithe / that we muste doo Good vnto all Gal. 6. but especially to those which are off the how shoulde of faithe : yt muste needes folow off the contrary / that we owght not to doo hurte vnto any / but especially vnto those / which are off the howshoulde off faithe . And this degree doothe our Sauiour Christe him selfe note / when he thundering againste offences / addethe this as an encrease / and an higher stepp in synne : if be yt doone againste one of those which beleue in hym . 18. Mat. 6 And where he saithe / that straungers may be so withdrawne , wheras there can be no suche feare off those whiche are alredie members off the churche : he speaketh bothe contrarie to all experience / and directly contrary to the Apostell / which disputing in this case 1. Cor. 8. 11. Rom. 14. 15. 20. of offense / saithe that the weake brother perisheth throwghe thes offences .

Laste off all ( yff he require authoritie ) Oecumenius / a man myche liked of the answerer / thincketh that he had an especiall care / to those that be alredy members of the churche : and Bucer hathe a longe treatise / wherin he proueth / that if either the Papistes / or those that are members off the churche muste be offended : that yt is more agreable / to prouide againste the offence off the churche / then off the papistes . Bucer vpon the 18. of S. Math.

The seconde rule he aloweth / but admittethe no competent Iudges of yt / but suche as made the orders : as the papistes / whiche ( alowing off the Scriptures ) take them selues onely able / to iudge off the sense off them . And if there were but some few as he saithe / where as there are many thowsansandes / and those all priuate men / where there be which haue charge : yet I wolde know of the A. whether the spirite off God / is tyed so ether to multitude / or to autoritie : that bothe a fewe / and priuate / may not espie faultes in the orders / which haue bene deuised by many and publike persons .

To the thirde rule / that all shoulde be doone vnto edifying : he saithe that yt can not be applied to all thinges generally vsed in 1. Cor. 14. the churche , but to praiers , tounges , &c. specified in that chapter , as if it were not the ordinary of the Apostell / to proue the particulers / by the generall / and so to conclude / that the exercises off praing / singinge &c. shoulde be doone to edifying / because all things muste so be doone . And where he woulde seeme / to ●ye the Signification / off edifying / onely vnto instruction in the churche : yt is manifeste that the Apostell / carying yt also vnto thinges indifferent / will haue this to be the rule / off our priuate actions / myche more off suche publike actions / as I haue before declared . And the wordes which saincte Paule vseth / doo not require / that ceremonies Rom. 14. 19. and orders of the churche shoulde edifye ( as he surmisethe ) : yt is sufficient to come vnder this rule off the Apostle / that they tende to edifyinge : and he can not be ignorant / that yt is one thinge to builde / and another thinge to tende to building .

For the 4 rule / which ys that they be doone to the glory of God / he will acknowledge yt to be no rule / to direct ceremonies Rom. 14. by / because yt is a rule to guide all actions whatsoeuer . which ys a very straunge argument / that because yt is a rule to guide all actions : therfore yt is no rule to direct the churches . And yff this be a sufficient cause off refusing yt as impertinent to this purpose : then that rule ( which he off thes fowre dothe onely allwe / as of that onely which he him selffe browght ) muste also be iudged impertinent to this purpose / and so thruste owte off the doores with her followes . For there is nothing whatsoeuer a man doeth / whether priuately or publickly in matters either ciuill / or Ecclesiasticall : but he owght to kepe this rule / that yt be doone in order and in comelines .

Where vppon my wordes / And yet so left to the order off the church , that it doo nothing agaynst the rules aforesayde , he noteth that I am contrary vnto my selfe , and contrary vnto the the Adm. Why dooth he note not the contrarietye ? Are these contrary ? Yt is not enough , that the orders off the church be not against the word , onles they be grownded vppon the word : and this / that they are so left to the order off the church , that yt / doo nothing contrary to the rules aforesaide ? Declaring my minde at large before / I haue in this last sentence / put lesse then was in the other : but there is nothing contrary . I neuer dissented from him in that he saith / the church may in making orders , doo nothing agaynst the word : but in this / that he by reiecting the Admonition / denieth that they ought to be cut owt according to the word and commaundement off God : I bothe did / and doo still dissent from him .

The article off the Duche church / as yt is set downe off M. Beza / we doo fully agree with : which is / that we owght 24. Epist. to esteme thinges indifferent , by the circumstance off time , place , and person , weighed by the skoles off the word off God . There are diuers thinges besides in this diuision / that are nothinge to the pourpose / and vnworthy any answere . And amongest others / what an vntollerable mockerie off the reader is yt / that where yt hath bene shewed / that the wordes off the Admonition / not commaunded in the scripture , owght to be taken for that / which is either particularly / or in the generall commaunded : he notwithstanding saith / that peraduenture we may shift yt , in saying that they ment , either generally , or particularly . Wherin in steade that he should haue proued / that they ment not so : he maketh a paraduenture off that / which hath bene before in so many wordes disputed .

Diuision 6. pag. 89.

IN that yow wounde vpp the lordes daye / withe other thinges which yow accounte merely indifferent neither set any marke in the foreheade off it / whereby we might vnderstande that yow had anie other estimation off it then off the reste : al men doo see / that I had Good cause to charge yow as I did . And euen now yowr answer which yow make / is expresly againste that which yow haue written before . For yow affirme that the lordes daie is in the nomber off those which not to obserue / or once to call in question / is meere madnes . But in your former booke / after recitall of the lordes daye / and other thinges which yow accounte indifferente : yow close vp which this sentence / that there is none so simple , which vnderstandethe not , that the churche hathe authoritie in those matters . Yf yt be mere madnes for the churche not to obserue the lordes daye : how hathe the churche authoritie in that case ? And yf yt maye not once moue question off it : how can yt take order in yt ? your manner off speeche / wherby yow would goo betweene thes two sentences / and helpe to set at one suche manifest contrarieties / are absurde : for yow saie / that the continuance off the lordes daye so longe , doothe proue yt necessarie to be obserued : and yet add / that yt maye be altered vpon great and especiall considerations . wheras if it be necessary to be obserued / it may not be altered : And if yt maye be altered / then it is not necessarie . Wherby appearethe how trewly I gathered off your wordes / which yow can not auoyde withowte suche senseles speeches .

Against that which I saide off Ecclesiasticall discipline / instituted in the 18 / off S. Mathew for contemners and neglecters off the worde / and common praiers : yt is saide / and saide with greate wordes / that that place is to be vnderstanded off secret and particuler faultes , and not off open , and knowne . Wheras yt is more then manifest / that if the scripture giueth authoritie to reprehende priuate faultes : yt doothe myche more authorise to rebuke publike faultes . And if those faultes / which are doone againste one man : miche more those which are doone against the whole churche . And iff those which are doone againste the profit off men : myche more against those / which are doone againste the glorie off God . And if vppon refusall off Admonition / in those particuler and secrete cases / he will haue the churche procede to excommunication : how myche more will he / that that proceeding be obserued in thes open faultes ? And yt ys to childishe / thus continually to stumble at this : that the wordes off the scripture shoulde haue no farther reache / then to that speciall case wheroff expresse mention is made in the texte : and to leaue no place to argumentes off like / of more to the les / off les to the more / of contraries &c. and therbie to cut off all meditation off the worde of God / to destroye a greate parte off the vse off teachinge in the churche . Albeit in folowinge his owne interpretation / the contemners or neglecters off the worde and praiers / maye well be subiecte to this rule / ( for it maye come to pas that one maye contemne the worde / &c. And yet in that manner as it shall be known wne onely vnto one what opinion he norishethe of them ) yet because that is not alwaies / let vs see further / what vnskilfulnes it is which the A. doothe so greatly accuse in this allegation .

Saint Paul grounding him selfe vpon this place off our 1. Cor. 5. Sauiour / doubted not to drawe forthe the authoritie he had to excommunicate / against the incestuous man / whiche was notoriously knowne to haue offended the whole congregation / and Hymineus / which had corrupted the puretie off the doctrine . 2 Tim. 2. 18. 1. Tim. 2. 20. And iff the A. saie trewly / that that doctrine off our Sauiour Christ touching excommunication / may be caryed no farther then to that case off priuate and secret iniuries : then Saint Paul drewe the sworde / and tawght to drawe yt / where yt owght not . And althowghe there be no mention made off the admonitions : yet they muste be off necessitie presupposed / forasmiche as it was not lawfull / to haue proceeded to that extremitie off cuttinge off by excommunication : if the offenders had lefte any place to admonitions / and wolde haue suffered themselues to haue bene cured by gentler medicines . What also that Saint Paul vpon the publike admonition which he 2. Cor. 13. gaue vnto certeine offenders / menaceth them that if they admit not his admonitions / and reprehensions / he will not spare them : doothe he not in those wordes giue them the threat off excommunication ? And if he doo ▪ then yt is cleare / that those admonitions being publike / were off publike / and knowne faultes / wherby folowethe that this rule off admonishing and reprehending / are forerunners vnto excommunication / euen in publike faultes . And as he here fighteth against a manifeste trewthe : so he hathe himselffe for aduersarie : which affirmeth Pag. 667. / that againste an heretike / bothe thes two admonititions which oure sauiour Christe speakethe of / and the excommunication afterward / owghte to be practised , oneles he will saie / that an heretike which is knowne to one onelie / owght so to be handled and that he which is notoriously knowne / owght to be free from that censure . The place of M Caluin / is altogeter from the pourpose , for I doo not say that priuate admonitions ought to be applied vnto publike offences / the Apostell of them giueth order that suche offenders shoulde be rebuked openly . 1. Tim. 5. Onely I saide / that for contempte / and neglecte off the wordes ( I might haue said for euerie faulte that tendeth either to the hurte of the neighbour / or to the hinderaunce off the glory off God ) there be prescribed in the worde off God / admonitions / and reprehensions / and if those will not serue / excommunications : but whether the admonitions and reprehensions shoulde be priuate or publike ( that thinge hanging vpon the qualitie and kinde of the faulte ) I affirmed nothing .

Now let vs see / what reuel he maketh with the ciuil Discipline / appointed by the lawe of God : Where before he can 8. sect pa. 5. off his booke . giue one answer / he muste aske three questions : the firste is answered before in the beginninge / the laste is handled afterwarde in the 6. Ch. and 5. diuision . And as for that parte of the seconde question which withe other his sainges folowing surmise that I woulde haue the negltcte of the worde punished by deathe : yt is directly against my expresse wordes / which ( hauing shewed the punishementes / that shoulde be executed vpon contemners ) add that there are other punishementes for those / which neglecte the worde &c. And as to that parte off his question / which is whether contemners off the worde owght to be put to deathe : yt is as his other questions be / of thinges not onely affirmed / and set downe / but disputed off bothe partes . For this is that which we plainlie affirme / and bringe argumentes to proue . And when he that despiseth the worde of God / despiseth God himselfe : the equitie of this muste needes appeare / vnto all those in whome there is but a corne off the zeale and looue of the glorie off God / or rather in whom there is not some pleasure / to see the glorie of God troden vnder feete . But he saithe / that the place off Moses off putting Idolaters vnto deathe , maketh nothing to proue this . The reason 22. Exo. wherof he assignethe to be : because contemners / are not Idolaters . This is his ordinary faulte / that he can not vnderstande / that iff an Idolater owght to die : miche more a contemner of the worde . For contempte ( althowghe yt be not in an action / which doothe vtterly ouerturne the seruice of God / as Idolatrie : but in one which staineth / or cracketh yt onely / as is the breache off the Sabbothe ) is yet shewed to be so displeasante vnto the lorde / and so detestable : that that which off yt selfe / was not deadly / onely by this circumstance of contempte / was punished with presente deathe / which may appeare in him that gathered stickes on the Sabothe daye . The breache off the sabothe daie / was not simplie punishable by Num. 15. 30. 31. & 32. deathe / as Idolatrie was / myche les so small a breache / by the gathering off a fewe stickes : yet because yt was doone ( as the scripture saithe ) in a highe hande / that is to saie proudly and contemptuouslie : the lorde commaunded / that he shoulde be put to deathe / and setteth that downe for a generalle lawe . How myche more then / shall he which despisethe the worde off God / ( which is the rule off the whole bodie off the seruice off God / and off that trew reste From our owne workes and from sinne / whereoff that bodelye reste / was a figure ) be punished withe deathe ? And iff because the lawe doothe not saie in thus many wordes / that a contemner shall die , yt be not lawfull to conclude / that he owght to be put to deathe : what wil the answerer saie / vnto the writer vnto the hebrues which 10. Heb. 28. saithe / that he that despisethe the lawe off Moses vnder two or three witnesses / was put to deathe withowt mercie ? For by those wordes yt appearethe / not onely that a contemner of the lawe off Moses / owght by the lawe to die ( which is that which I sett downe : ) but also that the writer vpon th●● and suche like places as I haue here alledged / gathered that whiche is no where in the lawe / found in the same wordes wherin he vttereth that sentence .

Touching the place off Deutronomy , which he saithe is onely vnderstanded off false witnesse : yt is apparant / that althowghe yt folowe 19. Deut. immediatly the lawe off puttinge a false witnesse to deathe : yet it is a generall sentence / and hathe regarde vnto all the crimes which are capitall . for iff false witnesses be put to deathe / and Idolaters or contemners remaine : how is the lande purged off the euills whiche drawe the wrathe off God vpon yt ? or how is a terror stricken into the reste wherby they may be kepte from the infection off that synne ? And if no punishement / but deathe / be hable to giue a sounde full enoughe to stricke a sufficiente terror of the synne off false witnes in suche a case : how myche more ys yt needefull / that there be as brymme / and as audible a punishement against Idolaters / and contemners of the worde / to the ingendring of that feare in others / wherby the reste maye be kepte / in the feare and trewe worship off the lorde .

The place off the Chronicles / is not answered : for yt is more generall / then the A. taketh yt : and is an exposition off Chron. 2. 15. the lawe . For where the lawe saithe / that he that seruethe straunge Gods shall die : this place saithe / that he shall die which seekethe not the lorde , wher in are comprehended not onely Idolaters / but Atheistes / and mockers / and contemners off God : which is that which I had to proue . As for that he asketh off the perpetuite off thes lawes / yt is afterwarde spoken off .

In the ende he findeth faulte / that I ( saying there are other punishementes for suche as neglecte the worde of God / according to the faulte ) doo nether tell what they are / nor where they be to be founde . I thowght that the mowthe of his vnderstanding had not bene so narrowe / but yt coulde easely comprehende / that if contempte be by the worde off God to be punished by deathe : that the neglecte off yt / owght not to escape the ciuile punishement / either in bodie / or Godes / &c. Why I did not recken them vpp / I assigned sufficiente cause : in that the varying / according to the quantitie off the faulte / more or les : coulde not be sett downe . And iff he will see in generall / what punishement the lawe of God aloweth of in such cases : he may reade in Esra . Where ( beside the punishement off deathe / againste the transgressors off the lawe ) there ● Esra 26 be also appointed banishement / losse of Good / or imprisonement / as the qualitie off the faute required . And if he saye / that that was doone by the authoritie not off the lawe of God / but of a heathen prince : the answer is easie / that yt is very like / that the commission given to Esra / and authorised by the kinge / was drawne by Esra : which was a cunninge scribe in the lawe of God . At the lefte yt is manifeste / that he bothe accepted that / and amongeste other thinges gaue God ver. 27. 28 thanckes for yt : which he wolde neuer haue doone / oneles ●t / had bene a Good interpetation off the lawe in that behalffe / considering that euen the ciuill and politike lawes / Wherby : the Iewes were then ( and in Iurie especially ) gouerned ▪ ought to be no other / then those which the lorde had prescribed in the lawe . And thus let yt be Iudged / what Good cause I had to aske / what was become off the A. iudgement : when he set downe , that there is no Discipline appointed ●n the worde off God , for those which shall contemne the worde off god , and common praiers .

Diuision 7. pag. 91.

THe answerer saide / that there was not one worde in the scripture off pulpites or off sytting at the communion : in a worde I shewed / that ther was . And where he saithe the pulpit was placed in open streete : That was / because off their dwelling in tentes / 2. Chro. 6 the feaste wheroff they celebrated . For otherwise yt appeareth / that suche a highe place in the temple / owte off the which the voice off him which spake might be hearde / was ordinary . The reason off calling the doctrine of Moses / the chaire of Moses / by a metonumie off the subiecte For the adiuncte : I will leue to the reader to iudge of . for my iudgement off them / I saide / that they are not lightly to be chaunged : and he dispurethe against me / as if I had saide : that yt were not lawfull to chaunge thes vppon any occasion . And beside this disputing againste his owne phansie / and not against my wordes : he hathe violently broken into the question / off reading and interpreting the worde off God / withowt any the leste occasion giuen therof : and hathe also shamefully corrupted / the place off Nehemias / as shall be seene in the proper place .

8. Diuision pag. 92.

Here he accusethe me of falsifying his wordes / whiche haue charged him with saying / that yt ys an indifferent thinge to preache the worde of God in churches or howses priuately or publikely : wherin he still vttereth his forheade / harder then any steele . For thes being his owne wordes / that the scripture speaketh not a worde of preaching or baptizing , openly or priuately , at home or in the church : doothe he not saye the same that I laye vnto him . What ys indifferent / yf that be not / which the scripture saithe not a worde of / hathe not prescribed / hathe not determined / hathe not appointed ? all whiche phrases he vseth / as those which signifie the same thinge . And when he addethe in the ende / that there is none so symple , that vnderstandeth , not that the churche hathe authoritie to take order in thes thinges : dooth he not affirme the same ? for the churche hathe authoritie onely in indifferent thinges to take order . So that it is more manifeste then the daie / that which I haue charged him with ones / he hathe saide twise / althowghe not in the same / yet in as full wordes . And where he asketh / whether yt be all one to saye / the scripture hathe not determined whether baptisme should be ministred openly or priuately , at home or in the churche , and to saye / the churche maye make baptisme priuate or publike : verelie they are in mine and I thinke in all other indifferent iudgement / all one : and iff they were not / yet as I haue shewed / yow haue saide bothe the one / and the other .

And where yow saye / that I therby giue the reader to vnderstande , that yow affirme yt is in power off the churche , to apointe that ther shoulde be no publicke baptisme : althowghe I giue no more to vnderstande that / then that yow affirme / that it is in her power to appointe that ther should be no priuate baptisme : yet all men see / that this ys at the leste the weight off your wordes : that althowghe the churche shoulde abvse her power in apointing alwaies priuate baptisme / yet that must be obeied . For as when yow saie / that the scripture hathe not determined , whether the communion shoulde be celebrated sitting , standing , or kneeling , baptisme in fontes , basons , riuers , &c. Your meaning is to affirme / that iff the churche will haue the communion alwaies receiued kneeling / or baptisme alwaies ministred in basone : that so it owght to be / and neuer either standing or sitting or in fontes : so in saying that the scripture hathe not determined , whether the preaching off the worde shoulde be publike , or priuate , &c. and that the churche hathe the ordering of this thinge , yow affirme / that if the churche should allwaies ordeine / that preaching and baptizing shoulde be priuate : that so yt ought to be . Iff yow had saide / that yt had bene in the churches power / according to the former rules prescribed / to haue ordered / whether preaching and administring the Sacramentes shoulde be in the towne or in the fielde / in a churche ( as they call it ) or in some one / mans house or other : I wolde haue moued no question againste yow . but when yow saye / that yt is in the power off the churche / to ordeine whether yt should be publike / or priuate / I can not abide yow for euen in the time of persequution / when it is preached in the howse off a priuate man : I haue shewed / that the churche assembling there / the meeting is publike / wherunto yow answer not a worde .

Againste the place I alledged oute off Salomon / he excepteth Prou. 8. that it is strangelie applied , and farr fetched . Salomon in the chapter before / had shewed how the harlot / doothe lye in waite for men secrethe / and in the nighte time / and so ( pressed with conscience of the euill / which she goethe abowte ) shunneth the lighte / and sekethe secrete corners . In the beginninge off this chapter / he comparethe the wisdome off God in his worde / vnto a noble woman / whom he opposethe vnto the Harlot : and shewethe How she off the contrary parte / doothe not lie in waite / or seeke corners / or night / to hide her selffe in / or whisper in the eares off men / but exalteth her voice and speakethe in the moste open places / and corners off streates 6. Mat. 5. where the greateste concourse off people is . wherupon it may appeare / that iff the A. ether will / or vnderstanding were at home / and not far from him : this place had bene nere enowghe the pourpose . For iff the worde muste be taught in suche sorte / as it maie best be conueied vnto the knowledge of moste men / and leste be charged with the seeking off corners / or the couer off the night : and yt is manifest / that that is better doone / when yt is preached publikly / then when yt ys preached priuately : yt must folowe / that by that saying of Salomon / yt is prescribed vnto the churche / that the preaching owght to be publike . And if there be not onely examples off Christe / and off his Apostles / but also a plaine commaundement ( as I haue shewed ) to preache the worde openly : then yt folowethe / that yf the churche haue power to order / whether the worde should be preached publikely / or priuately : yt hathe power to order / contrary to the commaundement of our sauiour Christe .

And where he saithe that the worde off god maye be taught prtuately , and that a man may exhorte priuately : that is nothing to the purpose . For we speake of the order which owght to be keepte in the exercises that concerne the bodie off the churche / and not of the priuate exhortations / teachings / and admonitions / that ether the minister owght to vse towardes the seuerall persons off his flocke / or one priuate man towardes another / or the father off a howsholde in his familie / &c. And this is so farre from helping off him / that it makethe altogether againste him . For as yt is not in the churches power / to forbyd thes priuate teachinges / admonitions / exhortations / or to ordeine that thes teachings / &c. be publike / because the lorde hathe commanded them to be priuate : so yt is not in her power / to take awaie the publike preaching of the worde : considering that the lorde also hathe commaunded yt . And therfore yt ys vntrew / which he set downe : that the scripture hathe not determined , whether the worde shoulde be tawght , priuately , or publikely . For by priuate men / yt hathe determined yt shoulde allwayes be doone priuately : by publyke persons also / yt shewethe how / and in what case / yt shoulde be spoken priuately : and how / and in what case / publikely : contrary wherunto the churche can not determine / and iff she determine a 100. tymes / she is not to be obeied .

And wheras vppon that / that neither the place / nor the nomber off Persons / be off the substance off the wordes and Sacramentes / he woulde conclude / that it is in the power off the churche / to make the preaching / and administring off the Sacramentes / publike or priuate : he maye aswell saie ( which he saide in his former booke ) that yt is in the churches power to take order / whether men and women / shall come clothed / or naked to receiued the Sacramentes : considering that to come either clothed / or naked / is not off the substance off the Sacramentes . Where he owght to vnderstande / that there are diuerse thinges annexed / and hanging by / which being commaunded by the worde off god : are no more in the churches libertie to alter / then yt is in her power to change the daye into night . Howbeit as I haue shewed / that the place otherwise priuate / being by the order of the churche appointed for the assemblie off the whole churche / is for that time of the assemblie publike : so yt may be well said / that the nomber which meete in that place which is so apointed by the churche / to heare the worde off God / ( how small so euer yt be ) can not hinder the publykenes off that assemblie . The places quoted in the margente / to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacramentes : are handled in another place .

That which is alledged / owte of an article of the Suche churche / that thinges otherwise indifferent , doo after lawfull commaundement ( after a sorte ) chaunge theyr nature : we willinglie subscribe vnto howbeit / withe any thinge which is here in controuersie / it hathe no knot at all / but is a wandring sentence / which hathe no fellow . For yt is not debated here / what force off authoritie the thinges haue / whiche the churche ordeineth : but the question is altogether / what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order .

The nexte diuision / wherin he requireth answer vnto the place off the Corinthes / off doing all thinges decently / and orderly : ys answered in that I haue shewed / that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies / is therbye tyed / not onelye to place nothinge in the churche agaynste the commandement off God / but is bounde euen according to the commaundement / to frame her orders in indifferent thinges . Wherin the answerer ( althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vsed for the proofe off yt ) doothe ( I suppose ) agree with me / and therfore there was no cause / he should haue required any answer .

Caput 2. Diuision 1. pag. 95.

IF he would haue proued / that which I denie : he shoulde haue shewed / that thes authorities affirmed / that the churche in making lawes off thinges / wheroff the scripture hathe not precisely determined / neede not to haue respecte to the generall commaundements off the scripture before receiued . but that he is not hable to doo with any approued sentence . And albeit / he hathe subscribed to this sentence before : yet in the ende off this diuision / he beginnethe to s●lyde into his former error / saying / that in matters not prescribed in the scripture , he can not tel whether to resorte , to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them , but vnto councells , stories , and doctors . As thowge the scripture were not the loode starre vnto the churche / in her decrees towching suche thinges : and as thowghe the firste churches whhich had not suche stories &c. had not sufficient addresse in the light off the worde off God / to make constitutions by . I graunte the church by stories &c. vnderstandeth of their antiquitie : but the knowledge of their antiquitie maketh litle or nothing to know / how profitable / or conuenient for the churche they be : which being that onely / which is looked into in ther establishing / is drawne from the scriptures / and not from antiquitie . Howbeit because he pretendith agreement in this / that there be certeine thinges lefte vnto the order of the church with this condition / that they be doone according to the generall commandements off the Scripture : we will houlde him by his former wordes / and will not suffer him to breake from vs / vnles he doo not onelie priuilie nibble and bite abowte / but in manifest wordes eate vp / his former saying . Notwithstanding in the great plentie the A. hathe off places / for the proofe off this which we denie not : let yt be obserued / what partly vnproper / partly vngodly choise / he hathe made .

The first sorte off Testimonies owt off the auncient writers / and councells / are off off those which are in controuersie / as whether bishopps maie haue suffringanes / whether there owght to be metropolitanes / &c. Wheroff althoughe he bringe no testimonie owte off his antors / that they are in the churches power / to order : yet he settethe them downe / as thowghe there were neuer question moued off them / and as if he had gained them by stronge hande off reason .

The seconde sorte are off those thinges which beinge determined by the worde off God / off or on / are owte off the churches compas to take order in : As is that which he reciteth owte of Iustine / off the deacons carying the brede of the holy supper off the lorde , to those which were not present at the action off the supper : and that which he alledgeth owte of the councell of Neocesarea / that no man should be minister before 30. yeare off his age , Likewise that which he bringeth owte off the Amyran councell / that a minister can not s●ll the churches rightes especially in that sense the councell meaneth / which is for his owne priuate profit . The first of these is contrarie to the institution / and the laste being sacriledge are simply forbidden in the worde of god . The Scripture also determining that a man off those giftes which be required off the Minister off the word / maie / and ( if nede require ) owght to be receiued vnto the ministery / and shewing further / that those giftes fall into yonger yeares then 3● . yt muste needes folow / that the churche determining flatly / that none shall be receiued to the ministery before those yeares / shuttethe the doore off the ministerie vnto those / to whom the worde off God settethe yt open . And also / that this Councell is altogether owte off place alledged : considering that it determined not off this / as off a thinge wheroff the Scripture had not giuen sentence / but as off a thinge vnlawfull by the Scripture / and for that purpose it alledgethe the example off our Sauiour Christe / which preached not before he was 30. yeare oulde . Thes thinges daungerously set downe off the An. as indifferent / which are not : I thought it necessary to giue the simple reader warning / that the Answ. measure wherwithe he meteth indifferent thinges / is vnsealed .

Ther is a thirde sorte owte off Tertull. de corona militis ●d prax . & Basil . de sancto Spiritu , Wheroff beside that diuers off them were neuer conuenient / some off them vnlawfull / they are all suche as the authors doo not permit to the order of the churche / but vnder a false clocke off tradition / put the churches necke vnder a seruile yoke off them . And wheras he would faine saue thes places owte off the fire / by saying / that althoughe some grew in time to superstition , and that one of his autors gaue to myche vnto vnwritten traditions : he doothe but burne his fingers / the places he can not saue . For yt behoueth him to shewe / that certen thinges / not determined in the word off God / are in the churches power : and thes places ( yff they proue any thinge ) proue that the churche / is bounde off necessitie to certaine thinges / wheroff there is no commaundement in the worde off God : for the which cause they are alledged off the papistes / from whom it is not vnlike but they were borowed . Hosius de tradit .

But yet it appeareth , that there were thinges in the churche , not expressed in the worde : I graunte : and more then that / thinges contrarie : but by what right yt doothe not appeare . And in deede iff the answerer had light vppon some weywarde aduersarye / that woulde haue debated this question with him : these places wolde haue giuen him greate aduantage / considering that bothe the ceremonies / are for a greate parte naught / and the opinion off the necessitie off them a greate deale wors . And Ieromes wordes also / in tying the later churches / vnto the customes off the ancient which are not against faith / ( albeit they be smoothed / by translatinge praesertim namely , and with his exposition of matters off faith ) yet euen as they are set downe off him / ouerthrowe the churches libertie in thinges indifferent . For althowgh they should be inconuenient / and vncomely yet the matter off inconuenience / and vncomelines / being ( by the Ans. ) no matter off faith : the churche must still be clogged with them / nether can it by that rule / shake them off .

There are a fourthe sorte of places owte of the aunciente fathers / wherin he putteth the greateste confidence / and vpon which he hathe laide greateste weight : and therfore by handes set ouer againste them / moueth the reader to laie sure hould on them . Thes places drawne owte off Ambrose vppon the Ephes. and of Tertull de virginibus velandis . that of Ambrose being ( as hathe bene shewed ) very corrupte / is also a conterfaite / as shall after be noted . The other off Tertull / is a flat and a plaine Montaniste . yt is not vnknowne / that Montanus helde / that there was no sufficient instruction giuen by the Apostles vnto the churche / but that there were onely certeine principles off Religion giuen by them being vnperfect / and were afterwarde to be finished / and polished / by the conforter whiche himselfe did forge . This poison Tertullian hauing druncke / he lefte the Sauour off yt in diuers places / but in no place more brimly then in this . which maye appeare / by the comparisons he vseth / off likening the churche off God in the Apostels time / vnto a tree whose fruicte was not blomed / and vnto one which is in his base age : and the churches after the Apostels times / throwghe reuelations ( suche as he imaginethe the Apostels were not hable to beare ) allwaies marching forward towardes a greater ripenes in fruicte / and perfection in age . And if the D. had bene a litle awakened / he might haue smelt the fraude euen in thes wordes / which he hathe bene ab vsed by . For when he imagineth a nother rule off conuersation / and leading of liffe of a Chirstian / then that which hathe bene giuen : he might haue iustly suspected the sentence : seing the rule off conuersation / comprehended in the commaundementes / is vnchangeable . And when he addeth / that that should be doone by the grace off God / receiuing increase dailie vnto the ende : he did not obscurely touche / the head off his error / which is / that there shall be still vnto the worldes ende / greater graces off the spirite off God giuen to the churche generally / then hathe bene before in the Apostels tymes . Wherbie appeareth / that the places which the A. will haue the reader laye so faste houlde of / are thornes not to be once touched / withowte a hedging gloue in one hande / and a hatche● in the other . We willingly subscribe / vnto the Iudgement off M. Caluin alledged here .

And where the Ans. woulde make peraduenture the reader beleue / that by the wordes off pollicie and gouernement lefte to the iudgement off the church , Caluin meaneth / to make thes pointes in controuersie at the churches disposition : it shall appeare / bothe by his seuerall sentences of thes thinges / that he holdethe them vnchangeable / and by the exposition off M Beza his wordes / the same in effect with thes off Maister Caluin / which cometh after to be considered .

It remaineth that seing the answerer woulde oppresse vs / with the authoritie off the fathers . We consider / whether there can be any fitter places browght / for the maintenance off the Admonition / then the A. hathe alledged for him . Augustin / Whether yt be question off Christe , or whethet yt Contr. literas petit . lib. 3. cap. 6. be question off his churche , or off what thinge soeuer the question be off : I say not yf we , but iff an angel from heauen , shal tel vs any thinge beside that yow haue receiued in the scriptures vnder the law , and the gospell , let hym be accursed . And lest the Answ. should restreine this generall saying vnto the doctrine of the gospell / so that he woulde therby shut owte the discipline : let him heare what Cyprian saithe . The Cypri . in ser. de bapti . Chr. Christian religion ( saithe he ) shall fynde that owte off this scripture , rules off all doctrines haue spronge , and that from hence doothe springe and hether doothe returne , whatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doothe conteine . And euen Tertull himselffe / before he was imbrued with this heresie off Montanus / giueth testimonie vnto the discipline / in De praescript . advers. haeret . thes wordes . We maye not giue our selues this liberty , to bringe in any thinge off our will , nor choose any thinge that other men bringe in off their will : we haue the Apostels for autors , which them selues brought nothing off their owne will , but the discipline which they receiued of Christe , they deliuered faithfully vnto the people . And if the sentence were any thinge worthe / which he browght in towching the discipline / owt off Tertull : yt maketh against him . For in that he will haue that correction off the discipline / to haue the authoritie of the holy goste ( speaking in his fantastical conforter ) he declareth / that it is not a thinge which hangeth vpon the will of mortal men . And that in indifferent thinges / it is not enowghe that they be 2. lib. ad ●●xorem . not againste the worde / but that they be according to the worde : yt may appeare by other places / Wherehe saieth / that what soeuer pleasethe not the lorde , displeaseth him , and withe hurte is receiued . And in another place he saithe / that the scripture denieth that , whiche yt noteth not . And to come yet neerer / where De Monogam . he disputeth against the wearing of crowne or garland ( which is indifferent off it selfe ) to those which obiecting asked / where the scripture saithe that a man might not weare a crowne : he anwereth De coron militis . by asking / where the scripture saithe , that they may we are . And vnto them replying / that yt is permitted which is not for bidden : he answereth / that yt is forbidden , which is not permitted . Whereby appeareth / that the argument off the scriptures negatiuely / holdeth / not onely in the doctrine / and Ecclesiasticall discipline : but euen in matters arbitrarie / and variable by the aduise off the church . Where it is not enoughe / that they be not forbidden / vnlesse there be some word / which dooth permit the vse of them : yt is not enoughe / that the scripture speaketh not against them / vnlesse it speake for them : and finally / where yt displeaseth the Lorde / which pleasethe hym not : one must off necessitie haue the worde off his mouthe / to declare his pleasure .

Whether I commonly vse to propounde thinges in controuersie / in bare affirmacions / or denials / withowt reason : and whether yowe applie the scriptures / better then I : and howe true yt is / that yowe haue in yower former booke alledged more scriptures / then I did in mine ( all which thinges this glosse affirmeth ) I leaue yt to the Iudgement off the reader .

Cap. 3. Diuision 1. pag. 100.

IN the first whole page / there is nothing to be answered : yt being shewed / that yt is not our question ( which the A. dooth so shamefully affirme ) whether the scripture haue expressed all externall ceremonies / &c. In the next page / vnto me shewing that the place off August . to Casulanus is against hym / for that where he would proue / that certein thinges are in the churches power / the wordes which he alledgeth say / that the decrees of the forefathers / and coustomes off the people off God are to be obserued / tying the church to the decrees / and coustomes off those which went before : he answereth / that August . giueth a rule vnto priuate men and not vnto the church . Wherein he condemneth him self / off hauing alledged that sentence cleane beside the cause . For it is manifest / by the wordes immediatly goinge before / that he alledged it / to proue the autoritie off the church in thinges indifferent : neither can yt in any other respect / haue any bonde with that / which he pretendeth to proue . And nowe that yt is shewed / howe vnfitly the place is alledged : he shifteth his footing / and in steade off a rule towchinge the church / he maketh yt a rule for priuate men : and in steade off shewing the libertie off the church / he sheweth the bondage / that a priuate man is tyed by .

Where I conclude against hym off that sentence off Augustine / that we ought to followe the coustomes / and orders off the Apostels / and off the primatiue churches / seing yt ys certein / that they were our forefathers / and the people off God : and that we owght not to followe the Papistes / which are neither the people off God / nor our forefathers : to the first / off folowinge the Apostels / he saith / there were certeine thinges conuenient onely for their tymes / which are not to be folowed . Wherein onlesse he meane those thinges / which are in controuersie / yt is nothing to the pourpose : and iff he meane them / yt is a manifest begging off that / which is in demaunde . Vnto the seconde point / off not taking the Papistes coustomes / and decres : he referreth me to other places . Where notwithstanding he neuer answereth this argument off Augustin : and so in pretence off a fitter place / he hath taken a longer day .

Where he noteth me of ignorance ( in that I saide / I could oppose Ignatius / and Tertull / vnto August . and Ambrose / towchinge the fast vppon the Lordes day ) saying / that there is no difference betweene them , th one part speaking off the Saturday , the other off the Sonday : I am contented to beare his charge off ignorance . But is there any man / so forsaken off all not learninge onely / but common reason / which dooth not vnderstand that thes propositions differ / and fight amongest them selues / yt ys a detestable thinge to fast on the Lordes day : which is the Iudgement off Ignatius / and Tertull : and / yt is lawfull to fast on the Lordes day : Which is the Iudgement off Augustine / set downe off him selffe ? And when Ambrose / speaking not onely off the Sabbothe off the Iewes / but generally / willeth that whatsoeuer the coustome off the church be in that behalffe off fasting , yt should be folowed : dooth he not manifestly ouerthrowe his saying / which saith / to fast on the Lordes day is to kill the Lorde ? And euen in the case off the fast off the Iewes Sabbothe / which Casulanus demaundeth counsaill off / yt appeareth there was great disagrrement betweene the auncient fathers / consideringe that in the Canons / which are attributed vnto the Apostles / 65. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . it was ordeined / that if one were founde to faste on the Lordes day / or on the Sabbothe ( one onely exepted ) : being a clerke / he should be deposed / and being a layman / separated from the supper off the Lorde . If I haue off ignorance / set the fathers together by the eares ( as he saith ) : let vs see / howe with his knoweledge / he can part them / and set them at one in this behalffe .

That the fastes which were kept / in the tymes off Ambrose / and Augustine / and longe before / and their allowance especially off the Lentenne fastes Were corrupte / and prophanations off the true vse off fast : yf neede were / as I haue in part / so yt might in more wordes easely be shewed . That the counsaile giuè for the keeping of those superstitious fastes / might haue place in a straunger / and priuate man / which owght not to stand towardes a Citisen / and hym that hath charge : yt is apparent . And yet bothe thes the Answerer would beare downe with wordes / and nothing but wordes .

Where the answ. saying that he knoweth nothing in the place off Augustine / or Ambrose / towching fasting / which may not be obserued withowt iust offense / may be taken either to speake of the places which I alledged / thouching merite off fasting / or the places which him selffe alledged : I will rather esteme ( vntill I knowe the contrary ) that he ment off those which he browght him selffe / then together with the slipp off standing daies off fast / he should also fall flat by opinion / off the merite in fasting . And so I would haue the reader to take him / that there be no offense taken at this place / so doubtfully left . Where he bringeth me in concluding / that because the auncient fathers erred in some thinges / therfore they saide true in none : my wordes cary no suche sense . But for so muche as they erred / and euen in this matter off fast / which was in hande : they owght to haue no further credite / then their authoritie is waranted by the word off God / and good reason . and that therfore the Answ. which presseth their bare autoritie / withowte any warde off the word of God / or assistance of good reason / ether browght of him selfe / or fetched from them / bringeth an intollerable tyrannie into the church of God . This I gaue to vnderstand / which because he durst not in plaine wordes gaine saie : he hathe tourned my wordes vnto another sense .

Cap. 3. Diuision 2 pag. 103.

Augustine saithe / that the feast of Easter , Pentecoste &c. are the statutes off the Apostles , and commended to the churches , and addeth / that they are not conteined in the scripture . Whereuppon I concluded / that there is some thinge ( by this reckening ) commanded off God to be obserued / not conteined in the scripture : and consequently / that there is no sufficient doctrine / conteined in the scripture / whereby we may be saued . To this the Doct. answereth / that yt is a pretie and sound collection . I haue in deed for shortnes sake / trussed that into twoo or three propositions / which to put in full / and comptere argumentes / required a greater nomber : Howbeit the soundenes off the collection / is apparant to all / which will open their eies . And because the Ans: will yeald no obedience vnto the truthe / vnlesse she taking him by the collar / haue her handē vppon his throat : the foundenes off the collection shall thus appeare vnto him . What soeuer was decreed off the Apostles / and commended vnto the churches to be obserued / is necessarie : but some thinges ( by Aug. and the D. ) not conteined in the word off God / were decreed and commended by the Apostels / vnto the posteritie of the churches : therfore some thinges ( by Aug. and the D. ) not conteined in the word of God / is necessarye to be obserued . The first proposition is manifest / considering that the statutes off the Apostels / are the statutes off Christ : the seconde is Augustines / allowed off the D. and iff bothe these be true / then the third must needes be .

This being thus gathered / that which I added / that therupon yt folowed / that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scriptures : is thus concluded . That which doothe not conteine all the will off God / necessarie for vs to doo / conteineth no sufficiente doctrine vnto saluation : but the scripture ( by Aug / and the d. ) conteinethe not all the will off God / necessary for vs to doo : therfore the scripture ( by Aug. and the d ) conteineth no sufficient doctrine vnto saluation . The first proposition is manifest / in that S. Paul to deliuer him selffe from the gilte off bloude / towards the Act. 20. Ephes. alledgeth / that he had taught them all the will off God : the second foloweth off that which Aug. and the d. allowe . for iff there be some thing commanded off the Apostells / not conteined in the worde off God : that being necessarie / yt must folowe / that some necessarie thing for vs to doo / is not conteined in the worde .

And where the A. saithe / that neither Aug. nor he say , that any thinge not conteined in the scripture is so necessarie , that it may not be altered ( vpon iust occasion ) by suche as haue autoritie : he can not mocke the worlde after that sorte / withe faste and loose at his pleasure . For if they be statutes off the Apostels / and commended vnto the churches : what autoritie is there vppon earthe / whiche can displace them which the apostels haue placed ? and iff it be madnes ( as he saith afterward owte off Augustin ) not to obserue them / or once to reason off them : how can they take order in them ? And this answer is ouerthrowne / by the wordes off Augustin whiche folow immediatly . But other things ( saith he ) which are varied by regions ( as that some faste vpon the sabbothe daye , some doo not , &c. are at libertie to be obserued : neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes , then to do as the churche doothe where he comethe . Where it is manifest / that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostels / and ther statutes receiued by tradition : vnto those thinges / whiche are in the churches power to ordeine / and to those wherin yt ys safe for vs to applie our selfes / to the order off the churche . They being therfore in this opposed / the one beinge in the churches power / the other are nor the one being of that sorte / that off which side soeuer the churche determine off them / a man may saflie obey / the other muste needes be off that sorte / that if the churche woulde otherwise ordeine of them / then the Apostels : that a man may not safely obey . And in the nexte sentence / the thinges which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostels vnto / he calleth indifferent : and therby giueth to vnderstande / that he tooke them for vnindifferent . and hitherto perteineth / that he alledgeth owt off August . in Zuinglius name / and is Li. 4. con . Don. ca. 23. found in his booke against the Donatistes / where yt ys said / that they are to be holden as giuen by Apostolicall autoritie . Which is more then if he had said / giuen by the Apostels : considering that there are thinges giuen off the Apostels as counsailes / and left at the churches order to chaunge vppon occasion as were the traditions / which M. Caluin speaketh off / but they were neuer left vnto the church / with an Apostolical autoritie . Which autoritie is off the higheste nature / and proceding from the higheste court that can be .

And that this was Augustines meaning / appeareth manifestly by the place which I alledged / out of his booke againste the donatistes . De bapt. contr. Donatist . 5. lib. 23. ca. Where he saithe / that all those thinges which the churche houldeth generally , are to be houlden as praeceptes off the Apostels , althowghe they be not writen : wherunto he answereth nothing . And by that place / the folie off the answerer wherby he woulde tune Augustin by maister Caluins wreste / is more plainly discouered . For where he wolde haue vs thinke that August vnderstood those traditions onely / which perteine to order / and politie / that may be varied / and not vnto doctrine : yt is manifest / that Augustin in that place saithe / that the Apostels gaue commaundement , towching the not rebaptising off those whiche were baptized by Heretikes , and that the custome of off the churche in not rebaptizing , which was obiected against Cyprian , had the beginning off the Apostels tradition . Nowe I would knowe off the answerer / whether he dare saye / that this iudgement off rebaptizing / be off traditions / which may be chaunged : or whether there can be any iust cawse / wherefore this may be altered ? And if he dare not saye this / then let him confesse his faut / and not seeke to make vp his breaches / by sutche vntempered morter .

Where I saye / that thereby there is a gate opened vnto the the Papistes / to bring in vnder the colour off traditions / all their beggery : he answereth / that the Papistes are rather confuted by this meanes / considering that the Pope / hath nether at all tymes / nor in all places bene receiued . Where to let pas / that to helpe him selfe / he addeth at all times which is not in Augustines rule : he towcheth not the point off the cause . For in that onely that it is saide / that there be precepts off the Apostels vnto the church / not conteined in the word of God : is pusshed at the strongest bulwarcke / which the church hath to defend yt selfe / against the Popishe beggerie / and all other corruptions / Which bullwarke is / that whatsoeuer is commaunded of the Lorde vnto the church / is conteined in the worde off God . yff this be once shaken : there is no sufficient resistance left vnto the church / against this assaut . For althoughe yt hath some great likelihood / which hath bene generally / and from the Apostels times receiued : yet for somuche as yt is not vnpossible for the whole church to erre in some point / and to haue taken vp / or reteined off that which yt had before / some thing not deliuered by the apostels : it can be no sufficient bar / to withstand the corruptions offred to be brought in by the Heretikes / to saie that the church hath ether doon / or not doon / so / and so / sythens the Apostels tymes . And althoughe we might be assured that they are the precepts of the Apostels / which haue bene so generally receyued : yet the doore is not so close shut against corruptions / as he pretendeth . For this thing standing that there are commaundements giuen of the Apostels / not conteined in the word of god : they may thrust in thinges / which haue not had that generall / and continuall obseruation . For althowghe Aug. saie / that they are the traditions of the Apostles / which are generally receiued : yet he dooth not saie that they onely are / and the Heretikes whose corruptions should be repulsed in this respect / that they haue not bene generally nor alwaies receiued / might haue an easye replye / that there is the same preiudice against certen off the commandementes off the Apostels committed to writing : considering that they haue nether generally / nor continually bene receiued .

Where he alledgeth Zuinglius / vsing a sentence off Augustine not muche vnlike / to confirme childrens baptisme : yt is to be noted / that Zuinglins vsed not that sentence / but in the confirmacion off a thing / which hath certeine testimonie owt off the word off God / as hath childrens baptisme / whereit could not be dangerous . and then yt is to be obserued / that thereby is ouerthrowne his whole answer . For Zuinglius taking that sentence off thinges / which haue a necessarye obseruation in the church off God / and can not be chaunged : putteth to flight his whole answer / with the defense theroff / which supposeth Augustine to haue gyuen this rule / off thinges indifferent . And therefore either the A. is abused / in vnderstanding thes places off thinges indifferent : or els Zuinglius / in vsing this for the necessitie off childrens baptisme / gaue his aduersaries great aduantage / whilest they might haue answered with the D. that that authoritie off the Apostels is suche / as the church vpon consideration may alter . And where he alledgeth M. Caluin / as one which had vsed that rule off Augustine : I answer / that yt is one thing / to alowe the sentence off a writer : and another thing / to take some aduantage off it when his aduersarie presseth hym with his authoritie . A man vseth some time that defense / prouoked by the manner off assault off his ennemie / which he would not doo / iff he might choose his owne fight : and it might serue M. Caluin in part / for arm our against the bare autoritie off Augustine vrged off the Papistes / which is not of proofe / against the shot off the word off God .

Where he saieth / that the Papistes haue no wicked thing , which ether hath bene generally obserued , or whereoff he is not able to shewe the first autor : I answer / that it is well the church standethe not in neede / off this defense off yowres . For if the Lenten fast , ( which in Augustines time had bene by longe coustome receiued ) if holy water / Epist. 119. holy oyle / the superstition off praying towardes the East ( which are off those traditions / that in the place by him alledged owt off lib. de spirit sanct. Basile / are attributed vnto the Apostles ) yff those I saie / and suche like / be against the word off God : let hym tell howe he will cleare the Apostels / of being autoures off these corruptions / which are fathered of them by men off suche credit / onlesse he flye to this rocke ( which by the doctrine off traditions he goeth abowte to vndermine ) that is to saie : that the Apostles haue left in writing / whatsoeuer they would haue the churches obserue . For what autoritie soeuer he bring to shewe / who were the first inuentors of these thinges / yt being humane / is counteruailed by them / which haue caried them vnto the times off the Apostels .

Where vppon on that I saide / that all the commandementes off God , and off the Apostels , are nedefull for our saluation , he maketh such a terrible owtcrie / as if all the church had bene set on fire : I dowbt whether ( for the vanitie of the accusation ) I should vouchesafe yt of answer / which for the strong / and bitter wordes / might seme to require a large defense . Howbeit let him vnderstand that when I speake of all the commandementes of God / and off the Apostels : nether by the deduction off that which I handled / nor by any Iudgement / not altogether peruerted / could I be thowght to meane any other commaundementes / then those which perteine vnto vs . And iff I had met with the vainest trifler / and hawker after syllables / which can possibly be : yet the sentence I set downe / is sufficiently fenced against all his greedines / of snapping at yt . For the Ceremoniall lawe / and personall lawes giuen in times paste ( being nowe no commaundementes off God / and the Apostels ) can not be comprehended vnder my wordes / off the commandementes off God , &c. And iff a man leuing the deduction off the cawse / which I had in hand / will staie in the bare wordes / which I vsed : then euen bothe cermoniall / and those which were giuen to particular persones / albeit they be not to be doone / yet are they for our better instruction in the will off God / needefull for our saluacion .

To the argument which I vsed / that iff Augustine would haue vs doo those thinges / which the Apostels vsed in the churches / not committed to writing : then muche more he would haue bene off aduise / that we should kepe that / which is committed to writing / towching their gouernement off the church : he answereth nothing .

In the thirde diuision pag. 107. to that I found fault with / off the second rule off Augustine / which is / that yt is madnes , ether not to kepe , or to reason off that , which is vniuersally obserued off the church : he answereth / that was a rule for Augustines time , and not for all times . Wherein / he first condemneth him selfe / off wandring from the cause : which to shew / that some thing may be established in our church / not commaunded in the scripture / alledgeth a rule that belongeth not vnto vs . Then it is manifest / howe helpeles a shift this is / considering that the rule is generall / and as generally gyuen / as any other the rules / which the A. comendeth vnto vs / out off Augustine . Beside that I alledged / that euen in August . time / yt was wicked to giue any such autoritie / to the decree / or custome of men / as not to enquire into yt : which because he durst not denie / he left vnanswered . And whereas he addeth / if it be not repugnant to the word : I shewed that Augustine / could haue no suche meaning : which althoughe he confesse in one word / contrary to that which he set downe : yet in the same page ( lest the truthe should get any victorie at his handes ) he dooth in effect denie yt . For he saithe / that Aug. hath sondry times in suche rules , made this exception , iff they be not against faith , &c. Where yt is manifest / that this exception is of those rules / which are diuersly obserued / and which he openly opposeth / vnto this rule / and suche as this is / off the necessary obseruacion off thinges .

The place vnto the Gall. was needefully opposed . For if 〈…〉 . there be commandementes off the Apostells vnto the churches / and thinges which yt is madnes not to kepe / or to enquire into / not writen : there ys something necessary to saluacion / which S. Paul preached not : considering / that the whole summe off his preaching / is cowched in writing .

The place off Augustine / off abrogating ceremonies otherwise indifferent / he answereth / was not for his pourpose . Howbeyt / of his pourpose had bene / to haue boulted owt the truthe : yt ●● cleare / that hauing this cawse in hand whether ceremonies in them selues indifferent / owght to be remoued : he would not haue dissembled yt . As for that he chargeth me / with leuing owt off thinges before / in the middest / and after / and thereof hath almoste fylled a whole syde : it is vtterly vnworthy any answere / considering that I haue left nothing owt / which is in controuersie / nothing which I doo not willingly confesse / nothing that he hathe any aduantage by : yea I left that owt / whereby I could haue taken aduantage . For beside that the ceremonies with vs are in greater nomber / then August . alloweth / all men see / that they are more vrged / and the omitting off them seuerelier punished / then the breache off the commaundementes off God : in which case he will haue them abrogated . For he scapeth far better / which hath not preached a whole halfe yeare in his church / then which preaching euery weeke twise / leueth off his surplis once . And yt is better with him / whose whole liffe / then whose capp is owt off square : which is ennemie off the crosse off Christe / then which can not abyde the crosse in baptisme : with those which leaue owt some ceremonie / in burying the bodyes off the dead / then with those which murder the soules off the liuing . All which thinges / the place of Augustine giuing me occasion off . I notwithstanding for shortnes sake / passed by .

The Answer to the laste place off Aug. was needeles / being the same with the third / which I subscribed vnto . The answer to your conclusion / had bene superfluous : I hauing before declared / wherein I agree with yowe / and wherein I withstand yow . And whereas I laye to his charge / that he fetcheth rules owt off the writinges of men , to square the Ceremonies by , which he might haue had in the word of god , here certeine , and altogether true , which are there vncerteine , and in part vntrue : he answereth / that he browght them not for that pourpose . wherein / beside that he calleth them rules / his answer is directly against that / which he hath set downe . For he ( chap. 1. diuision 9. pag. 94. ) making his beginning off the sentence off Saint Paul / which he saithe is a rule for the church / to examine her ceremonies by pursueth the selfe same point vnto this place . And where he saithe / they are meete for a Diuine to know : yt is no answer / considering that yt may be profitable / for a Diuine to know many thinges / which yt is daungerous to propound vnto the church / muche more to propound them / as rules to grownd the churches lawes vppon .

In the next diuision / there is nothing to be answered / or which hath not bene answered before . In the next / where he saithe / that the priuate sentences off men in their Epistels of these pointes , are off more credite , then that which they haue published vnto the whole world : yt is a saying / meet for such a cawse as he defendeth . For all vnderstand / that men be more soudeine in letters to their freindes / then in their bookes : and that they burne more candell / and make the file off their Iudgement / and vnderstanding passe oftener vppon those writinges / which they will submit to the Iudgement off all men / then to the iudgement off one : vpon those / which they knowe shall come on the racke off their wrangling ennemies / then which shal finde rest / in the bosome of an easie and frendly interpretation : vpon those / which they thincke shall remaine vnto all posteritie / then which they thincke shall dye / at the least with him to whom they wrote . And therefore iff there were occasions / to moue them to speake otherwise in their publike writinges / then in their priuate : yet that turneth all to the aduantage off those / which alledge that which was spoken vppon the howse toppe : rather then off those / which presse that was rounded in the eare off one man . Yf their priuate writinges / varie not from their publike / yt is so muche better for vs : which are well assured / that the publike we haue alledged / stand off our syde .

Where I suppose him / to attribute the order off church matters / vnto the Bishoppes / which he parteth with the prince / and other wise men ( albeit yt will appeare / that he shutteth owt diuers / which haue interest in that consultation : ) yet he might haue some cawse to complaine in that behalfe / and yt was I confesse / my ouersight .

Vnto the two next diuisions / pag. 117 / &c. Where I haue shewed the places off Deut. 4. 12. are still in force / against the error off the A. which ( in saing / that in the time of the Iewes , and during that estate , yt was not lawefull to adde any thing , &c. ) gyueth to vnderstand / that we are not so streightly bound vnto yt at this tyme : he answereth / that he applied that rule , vnto the lawe off faithe , and manners ▪ but he shoulde haue vnderstanded / that in restraining the rule after that sorte / therby shutting owt the lawes off making orders / and ceremonies off the church : he still falleth into that fault / whereoff he is accused . For hauing shewed / that not onely in thinges which he calleth matters off faithe / and manners / but euen in the variable Ceremonies off the church / there ys a worde off God : yt is also true / that he is accursed , which in making orders off the church / foloweth not the rule off the lawes off God / prouided in that behalfe . And I hauing shewed / that the Iewes them selues had certen Ecclesiasticall Ceremonies in mariadge / buriall / &c. which are not expressly commanded vnto them : yf they ( as he confesseth ) had addresse owt off the word off God / for all their lawes off what sorte soeuer and this curse fell off them / if in their variable lawes they ether added or diminished from the word of God : yt muste needes folowe / that the Christians nowe in their variable lawes / bothe haue a word to direct them / and a curse for either adding / or diminishing from that word . Onles he will saie / that the Christians / in thinges which were a like left vnto the libertie off them / and the Iewes / are les bownd to folowe the prescript off the worde off God / then were the Iewes : which ys absurd .

In the places owt off Ieremy / and Isay / yt is euident / that there is set forthe / howe there shal be greater knowledge off the will off god / vnder the Gospell / then vnder the Lawe . And euen that which I haue set downe / off the people which should be as learned vnder the Gospell / as the Leuites / and Priestes vnder the lawe : beside that yt conteineth a manifest truthe , and therfore can not be to flatter the people ( as he surmiseth ) : may be also gathered off the 5. verse off the 56. chap. off Isaie . Where the Lord / promising to bring the Gentils into a better place of his temple / then the Iewes had before / dothe not obscurely declare / that which I saide .

Vnto the twoo next diuisions pag 118 / &c. for replie I saie / that he answereth not to the matter . For the question is not / whether we haue fewer or moe lawes then they / but whether we haue direction by those lawes which we haue / to all thinges whatsoeuer belongeth vnto vs to doo / as they had to doo that / which apperteined vnto them . To proue that there is a word off God / for all thinges we haue to doo : I alledged / that otherwise our estate should be worse , them the estate of the Iewes : Which the Ans. confesseth to haue had direction , owte of lawe , in the leste thing they had to doo . And when yt is the vertue off a good lawe / to leaue as litle vndetermined / and withowte the compasse off the law / as can be : the A. in imagining / that we haue no word for diuers thinges / wherein the Iewes had particular direction : presupposeth gteater perfection in the lawe / gyuen vnto the Iewes / then in that which is left vnto vs . And that this is a principal vertue off the lawe / may be seen / not onely by that I haue shewed / that a conscience well instructed / and towched with the feare off God / seeketh for the light off the word off God / in the smallest actions : but euen by common reason / the masters whereoff giue this rule / 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that is to saie / that yt greatly Aristot . ad Theode . behoueth those lawes , which are well made ( as muche as can be ) to determine of all thinges , and to leaue as fewe thinges as may be to the discretion off the iudges . Where he saithe / that the examples I browght off orders / which the Iewes did well obserue / whereoff there was no expresse mention in the lawe off God / make not to the pourpose , for that , he spake off ceremonies , vsed abowt the worship off God : I answer / that that which I haue alledged is a manifest confutation off those wordes / which he hathe set downe / nether was ther the least thing , to be doon in the church , omitted in the lawe . For are not these thinges / which I browght example off / to be doon in the church : are they not Ecclesiasticall orders : yea are not part off them ( which he denieth ) perteining to the seruice off God ? Yf these orders / off the howre for the morning / and afternoone sacrifice / off preaching the word off God in a place where yt may be best hard / off fasting for the better humbling off the people before the lord in praier / be not orders / and Ceremonies perteining to the worshipp off God : then the daylie sacrifices / preaching the word off God / and calling vppon his name / ( whereunto these belonged ) are no partes off the worshipp off God : then the which there is nothing more absurde . And verily this is not / by iugling / or sleight off hand / to deceiue the eyes off the reader : but by flat facing / to endenour to make hym tourne them from the truthe . That which I said / off the Iewes Ecclesiasticall gouernement / by the morall and Ceremoniall lawe onely / and not by the iudiciall : ( as that which may be cast downe with reasons owt off the word of God / which is here onely doon by autoritie of men ) I am well content it fall . So that I haue no fault to finde with the Ans. in this behalfe / but that the weapon he strooke this with all / was not sharp enoughe .

Diuision 5. pag. 120 &c. Of the nomber off thinges / which the Iewes had not particulerly decided by the lawe / the reason is apparant / which I haue assigned : that this hyndereth not / but that there is a word / and generall commandement to direct them by / hath bene shewed : that it is a vaine cauill / that maketh doubt / whether in saying / that we haue the same lawes to direct vs in the seruice off God , which the Iewes had , I meane the Ceremoniall lawe , or no , appeareth by that / which I set downe ( in the third diuision . p. 118. ) where / I receiuing the morall lawe / for our direction / left the Ceremoniall . and of the same sort is that which he wrangleth in / becawse I saie / the newe Testament is a noble addition vnto the ould : considering that I adding wherein / namely that it maketh the ould more manifest , and bringeth greater light : shut owt all / euen the least occasion off suche trifling . And Vpon 2. Tim. 3. this maner of speach that I haue vsed / Maister Caluin which is here opposed / hath him selff vsed . Where he calleth in this respect / the gospell an addition vnto the lawe . yt remaineth to see / whether in the matter off the iudiciall lawe / that which I haue set downe be straunge / and daungerous ( as the A. surmiseth ) or no.

It is not ( as the A. surmiseth vntruly ) that the magistrate is simply bound vnto the iudicial lawes off Moses : but that he is bound to the equitie / which I also called the substance / and marrowe off them . In regard off which equitie / I affirmed that there are certen lawes amongest the Iudicialles / which can not be chaunged . And hereof I gaue example / in the lawes which command / that a stubbern Idolater / blasphemer / murtherer / incestuous person / and suche like / should be put to death . For the first point / that the equitie of the iudicialls doth remaine / and therfore owght to be a rule / to Cal. Institu. 4. cha. direct al lawes by / to let passe the autoritie of M. Caluin / M. Beza / and other writers off our time / that haue writen with any iudgement off this matter ( which doo in plaine wordes affirme that 20. s . 15. Bez. in his booke of putting Here. to death . there is a perpetuall equitie in them / and that our lawes albeit they differ in forme / yet owght to reteine the reason / or ground of them ) I saie to let that passe : yt is to be considered / that all these lawes morall / Ceremoniall / and Iudiciall being the lawes off God / and by his reueled will established / must so far forth remaine / as yt appeareth not by his will / that they are reuoked .

And seing that the alteration which is come in this behalfe / is by the comming off our Sauiour Christ onely : yt is to be inquired / what those lawes are / which he put end vnto . Which thing may be considered / in that diuision which Saint Paul vseth / where he saith / that our Sa. Christ came / to make peace / first betwene God and men / and then betwene men and men : that is to say / betwene Ephes , 2. the Iewes / and Gentils . The Ceremoniall lawe therefore / beinge a lawe of enimitie ( which as a wall held owt the Gentils / from ioyning them selues vnto the Iewes ) was necessary amongest other cawses / in this respect / to be taken away . The curse off the lawe / for the breache of any the lawes of god / ether perteining to the Iewes in tymes past or vnto vs nowe / being that which maketh the wall betwene the Lord and vs : was for our reconciliation with his maiestie / necessarily to be remoued . Wherevppon followeth / first that the morall lawe ( as that which nether hindereth our reconciliation with the Lord / not our good agreement with men ) is in as full strenght as euer it was before the comming of our Sauiour Christ . For the curse off the lawe / beside that it is in regard off the elect / rather fulfilled / and executed in the persone off our Sa. Christ / then abrogated : beside that also / yt hath a necessary vse as yet towardes the elect / not onely to driue them to the faith which is in Christ Iesus / but also to kepe vnder the remantes of rebellion / euen of them which haue already beleued : and beside that the force thereoff / is daily / and shal be for euer / execured vpon the wicked : beside all this / seing this curse was annexed / not onely to the breache off the morall lawe / but also off the Ceremoniall / and Iudiciall : there is no iuste cause why the morall lawe should be sayde to be abrogated . At the least / it can not stand ( which the Ans. hathe very daungerously set downe ) that the whole lawe off god generally is abrogated . For if a man will make the curse a part of all the morall lawe / wher yt is rather a necessary adioinct / vnto the breache of the lawe / then a part therof : yet notwithstanding / that part off the morall lawe which standeth in commaunding and forbidding / remaineth vnshaken / and as concerning abrogation / vntowched off our Sa. Christ .

Secondly / it foloweth hereuppon / that those iudiciall lawes off Moses / which are merely politik / and withowt all mixture off Ceremonies / must remaine / as those which hinder not / the atonement off the Iewes / and Gentils with God / or off one off them / with an other . Beside that / it being manifest / that our Sa Christ came not / to dissolue any Good gouernement off commen wealthe : he can least off all be thowght / to haue comme to dissolue that which him selffe had established . And off this point / the Ans. hath twoo contrary sentences : one off Musculus / which saith / that the iudiciall lawe is abrogated , the other off Beza / which is the same with that which I haue brought reasons off : that is to say / that the iudiciall lawe being giuen vnto the Iewes , is not Beza in his former booke . yet abrogated , so that iff they had any estate off common wealthe , in the Land off Canaan , they should be constreined , to vse that forme off gouernement , which was gyuen vnto them of Moses . Nowe albeit those lawes / gyuen vnto the Iewes for that land doo not binde the Gentils in other landes / for somuche as the diuersitie off the disposition of the people / and state off that country gaue occasion off some lawes there / which would not haue bene in other places / and peoples : yet forsomuche as / there ys in those lawes a constant / and euerlasting equitie / whereuppon they were grounded / and the same perfecter / and farther from error / then the forge off mans reason / ( which is euen in this behalffe / shrewdly wounded ) is able to deuise : yt followeth / that euen in making politike lawes / for the common wealth / Christian Magistraites owght to propound vnto them selues those lawes / and in light of their equitie / by a iust proportion off circunstances off person / place / &c. frame them .

Furthermore / that this equitie off the Iudiciall lawe / remaineth not as a counsaile / which men may followe yf they list / and leaue at their pleasure / but as a lawe / whereunto they be bound : what better proofe can we haue / then the Apostle ? Which after he had alledged diuers similitudes / fetched off the common 1. Cor. 9. vse off men / to proue that a Minister off the Gospell / ought to be mainteined off the churches chardge / vnto the aduersarie / which might except / that those were but humane reasons : he alledgeth / as the eternall lawe off God / one off the Iudiciall lawes Deu. 25. 4. off Moses / which was / that a man should not mousell the mouthe , of the oxe which tredeth owt the corne . Where it is manifest that he doubteth not / to binde the conscience off the Corinthes / 1. Cor. 9. vnto the equitie off that lawe / which was Iudiciall . Likewise / of the finding off the priestes / in the seruice off the altar / commaunded in the lawe : he concludeth / that those which preache the gospell / should liue off it . And this maintenance off the preistes / albeit in the maner off prouision / yt was ceremoniall : yet as it was a reward of their seruice / due by men ( as the punishementes also / iff they had failed in their duties ) was mere iudiciall . Whereuppon it is brought to passe / that in those iudicialls / to all the circumstances whereoff we are not bound : we are notwithstanding bound to the equitie .

Yt remaineth to shewe / that there are certein Iudiciall lawes / which can not be chaunged / as that a blasphemer / contemptuous / and stubborne Idolater / &c. ought to be put to death . The doctrine which leueth this at libertie / when they can alledge no cause off this loosenes / but the comming off our Sauiour Christ / and his passion / faulteth many wayes . And first / yt is a childishe error / to thincke that our Sauiour Christe came downe / to exempt men from corporall death / which the lawe casteth vppon euill doers : when as he came not to deliuer from death / which is the parting off the bodie from the soule / but from that which is the separation bothe off bodie / and soule / from the gratious presence off the lord . And iff it were so / that our Sa. Christe had borne in his owne bodie / this ciuill punishement off publike offenders : yt must folowe thereupon / not ( which the Doctor Phansieth ) that it is in the libertie off the Magistrate , to put them to death : but that he must / will hee / nill he ( yff they repent ) kepe them aliue . For if our Sa. Christe hath answered that iustice off God in his lawe / whereby he hath commaunded / that suche malefactors should be put to death : yt should be great iniustice / to require that againe / in the life off the offender . So that ether our Sa. Christe / hath answered that iustice off God / which he requireth in his lawe / concerning the death of suche offenders / and then yt can not be asked againe / in the bodie of the offender : or els he hath not answered yt / and then yt remaineth of necessitie / to be answered in the life off the offender .

Againe / this opinion ys iniurious vnto the death / and whole appearing / off the sonne of God in fleshe . For where he appepeared for this cause / that he might destroy sinne / which is the 1. Iohn ● . worck off the Deuill : the Answerer in his imagination of choise / which he leueth to the Magistrate / towching the putting of suche horrible offenders to death / doth at vnawares as muche as in him lieth / make our Sa. Christe build againe that kingdome of sinne / which he hath destroyed . For when bothe in common reason / and by the manifest word off God before alledged / the Lord giueth Deut. 19. this blessing vnto the punishement of suche greiuous offenders by death / that others not onely which see / but also which heare off them / haue the bridell off feare put vppon them / whereby they are withholden from the like crimes : yt must nedes followe that whosoeuer maketh our Sauiour Christ / autor of this loosenes / in punishing suche offenders : maketh him forthwith / to lose the bridell / whereby others are staied / from throwing them selues downe the hill off wickednes / which was before committed . And what is / if this be not / to make our sauiour Christe / a troubler off common wealthes ?

Moreouer if our Sa. Christe by his comming / loosed thes cyuill punishementes / and pourchased this grace off his Father / for blasphemers / &c. that if they could finde fauour in the eies off the Magistrate / they might escape the handes off death / which the lawe off God adiudged them vnto : howe cometh it to passe / that the Apostels / to whom the Lord committed the publishing off all that pardon / which he obteined for vs / did neuer make mention off the slacking of these punishements ? Yf our Sa. Christe / had obteined this libertye / yt was worthye the preachyng . And therfore onles the A. can shew something / owt off the wrytinges off the Apostels / to warrant this sanctuarye / which he would so faine build to the support off blasphemers / murtherers / &c. yt followeth / that the Apostles ( by his saying ) haue not answered the trust committed vnto them . But if all godlie mindes doo abhor these absurdities / there is no cause / why they should like of this corruption off the Doctor / whereupon all these depende . Na / in that the Apostell putteth a sword in the hande off 13. Rom. the Magistrates / and in the vse off it maketh him a Minister / and seruant off the vengeance and iustice off the Lord against sinne : he striketh thorowe this opinion / which imagineth that our sa. Christe / came to hange the sword off the Lordes iustice / vpon the pleasure and will off men . For the Magistrate being the Lordes officer / as the Sheriff is the Magistrates : yt is no more in his choise / to withold the sword / which the lord hath put in his hand to drawe : then in the power off the Sherif / to staie the execution off that iudgement / which the magistrate him selfe hath lawefully commaunded . Nowe seing there is a sword in the Magistrates hand / by the doctrine off the Apostels / and that also which the magistrate must of dutie draw : I would gladly knowe off the A. where that necessitie can be found / if it be not in these crimes of blasphemy / &c. Which I haue set downe ? And if he saie that S. Paul by the sword / vnderstandeth all manner off ciuill punishements / as wel by the pourse / as by other bodelie chastisementes / which spare the life : I graunt it / but by an vsed maner off speache / which noteth the whole by the part / he rather chose to vtter those punishemets by the sword / then ether by the whip / or by the pourse . Wherby he did not onely not exclude / this necessitie off punishing malefactors by death : but laied rather a streighter bond vpon the magistrate / to execute those / which committ thinges worthie of death . Hytherto generally / of putting those to death / which commit thinges against the lawes remaining still in force / as they were in times past established off the lord / in the bloud off the transgressors .

Nowe I wil come to the particular crimes / which I haue set downe . And first for the crime off adulterie / it is to be considered / that yt is a breach off the most holy / and auncient both institution / and solemne couenant off the Lord . Then / that it is an iniurie doon vnto the innocent part / in the moste pretious possession that can be / in thinges perteining to this present life / ioyned with dishonour / caste not onely vpon the person / but vpon all his children / and in a maner of al those which belong vnto him . Thirdly / that this fire / doth not onely waste the familie where yt is / but maketh a breach into the common wealth / whilest the right of inheritance ether of landes / or offices / is oftentimes thus translated from the true inheriters : whilest the children which are so begotten / hauing oftentimes les care / and coste bestowed vppon them in their education / become hurtefull members off the common wealth . Wherby all men may clearly see the perpetuall equitie off the lawe off God in the reuengement off this sinne by death .

And when the lord addeth this / for a reason off putting the adulterer to death / that the euill may be taken owt off Israel : Leuit. 19. 29. vnto the heape off incommodities before rehersed / for fault off exequuting his Iudgement off death / he threateneth the whole common wealth / with mischeif to fall vppon yt . And the equitie off this punishement by death / hath so ligthsome colours vpon it / that euen in this glymmering sight / which remaineth in the accursed nature off men / it hath vpholden it self against the ignorance / and iniustice off all which haue not willingly put forth / that sparkle which standeth in the discretion of honestie . For euen before this candell light of the lawe off God was set vp / not onelie the Godlie ( as Iob ) which were in some part reformed / of the Iob. 31. 11. Generall blindenes : but euen those which were not of the church of god / as Abimelech the king of Gerar / and the very Cananites ( as longe as there was any step off equitie amongest them ) did see Gen. 26. 11. Gen. 38. 24. that the filth off this sinne was such / as ought to be washed away with the bloud of the offenders . For vnhereas Isaac feared the assault / both of his life / and of the chastitie of Rebecka : the king ordeined / that whosoeuer ether laide violent hand of him / or had to doo with his wife / should dye . And in that Iuda / called for Thamar / to be led forth to death in the land off Canaan / where him selfe was but a priuate man / for that she being made sure vnto a housband / plaide the harlot : he gaue to vnderstand / that the Cananites / which had euen then filled a Good part off that measure off sinne / vnto the brincke whereoff they came afterward / did notwithstanding poursne adulterers vnto death .

And when the Lord did afterward gyue testimonie vnto this punishement / by the expresse wordes of his lawe : yt is manifest / that the lawe which God hath written / in the table off the hartes of all men / pronounceth the sentence off death agaynst adulterers . So that onles men / will like Gyantes fight agaynst the light of nature / or saye that our Sa. Christe / came to abolishe that which in all times / and with all nations ( not alltogether spoiled off the discretion off honestie / and dishonestie ) was obserued : yt foloweth / that the punishement off death against adulterers / and consequently muche more against incestuous meetinges / standeth in as full force nowe / as euer yt did / before the comming of our Sa. Christe . And when as adulterie being the least off those faultes which I haue set downe / is found worthy of death . Yt is easye to see / what is the iudgement off the reste .

Howbeit hauing spoken somewhat before / off the ciuill punishement off those which offend against the seruice off God / and more being to be saide vppon occasion afterward : that the necessary punishement off murtherers by death / may haue with the rest some particular defence / let some thing be said thereoff . Firste the consent off all nations ( were they neuer so sauage ) in punishing this sinne with death / teacheth that yt is the lawe of nature : which can not be broken / nor dispensed with . yt is further to be noted / that the causes remaining / whereupon that necessitie off punishement by death / was grownded in the lawe : the punishement must still remaine . The Lord sheweth these causes / Nomb. 35 33. 34. of not sauing the life off a murtherer at any hand / first because the bloud which his hand hath shed , poluteth the land , so that there can be no purgation off yt , but in the bloud off the murtherer : secondly / because the Israelites , / whiche were the people of God ) and thirdly / because the lord him selfe , had his abode there . considering first / that the strenght of this sinne in polluting a land / is as great as euer it was ( onles for grace / giuen to one murtherer / men will / call the wrath off God / vppon a whole people : ) the necessitie off putting murtherers to death remaineth vnshaken . Then / forasmuch as Christian common wealthes / are the people off God / amongest whom he maketh speciall residence : beside the common obligation / whereby all men are bound in the lawe of nature / to punishe a murtherer by death : Christian common wealthes / haue two newe bondes / whereby they are tied to a more streighter obseruation / of this seueritie . Last of al / as this iudiciall lawe was giuen of God long before Moses : so not to be in the Gen. ● . nomber off lawes / corrected by the comming of our Sa. Christ : yt is manifest by his owne wordes / whereby he confirmed this lawe of God / saying / that whosoeuer tooke vpp the sword should Math. 26 : perishe with the sword . And there is no doubt / but if he had had like occasion / to speake of other ciuil punishement by death / established in the lawe / as he had of this / he would haue brought the same confirmation of them / that he did off this .

The exceptions against this doctrine / are off no valwe . For if this be the truth of God / there can be no prerogatiue against yt : onles he can shewe / some higher court then heauen / and some cheif iustice aboue the Lord , yt is not denied / but the punishementes by death / wherewith men haue established lawes / which them selues haue for their better commoditie deuised / may be ether mitigated or taken away / by those to whom it apperteined / nether is the magistrate / by any thing I haue set downe / bound to mitigate the punishement of theeues . for their punishement may growe / by the circumstance of place / as in Scithia / where all thinges lying open to the spoile / had neede to belocked vp by a streighter punishement : and some times / by the disposition of the people / lighter handed then others / as if one had to doo with the Lacedemoniens / or some other nation / in whom that sinne had taken deeper roote . And I will not denie ▪ but euen these crimes of murther / and adulterie / may varie by diuers circumstances : and therefore yt is in the discretion of the magistrate / according to the quantitie of the fault / to appoint the maner of death / sharper or softer . But that there is any place / time / or other circumstance / which can lessen these crimes / that they should not be worthie of death : vpon the reasons before alledged / I vtterly denie .

As for the casting away / of the studie / and large volumes of the lawe / which he imagineth to followe of this assertion : he deceiueth hym selfe . For euen when these lawes were fully in force / the Iudges thereoff ( by reason of their shortnes / comprehending many thinges not expressed ) had matter enoughe to occupie the greatest diligence / memorie and sharpnes of wit / that could fall into any . And if he aske our lawiers / vppon what groundes the greatest part off their houge volumes ( as he calleth them ) stand they will answer him / they partly stand vppon the plaine wordes off the lawe off Moses / and partly off reason vncorrupt / which is the equitie off the lawe vrged off vs . And therfore althoughe our lawes / be some time in forme diuerse / from the lawes off Moses : yet they will neuer graunt him ( which he hath / not so aduisely set downe ) that our healthsome lawes , be contrarie to Moses lawes . For both being Good / one off them can not be contrarie to the other . where he saith / that we of the clergie , should be the best iudges by this meanes , &c. it is to open iniurie / to charge vs with that / which we openly renounce / and condemne in him : which is / that in medling in ciuill affaires / they put their sickle in an other mans haruest . Notwitstanding if in establishing of lawes / for the Godly / and peaceable gouernement off the common welth / there may be no assistance of the ministerie / wherby the lawes should be the better compassed / to the equitie prescribed in the word of God / and to take heede that nothing be doon against it : there is no iust cawse / to vphold the Bishops presence in the Parlament howse . Where he saith / that the lawes which our sa. Christe made Mat. 5. 19 ▪ towching diuorcement for adulterie , had been to no pourpose , if the adulterer should off necessitie be put to death : first / he may be here iustly charged with that he hath vntruly surmised off me / because he bringeth in our sa. Christe / a maker off lawes vnder the gospell , whereas he made none in those places / but expounded the lawe of God / which he had made from the beginning . The other refusals made by the Iewes off their wiues / were neuer any lawes / but permissions onely : and therefore in there abolishement / there was no lawe of God abrogated . Secondly / yt was necessarie to vse that exposition / notwithstanding that the punishement of the lawe by death remained . For beside that the Iewes / being vnder the gouernement off the Romanes had those ciuill punishements by death / suspended vpon Iohn 18. 31. the pleasure off their officers / which were often corrupted : our sa . Christe ( forseing all thinges ) did forsee / what loosenes would followe in this behalfe . And therfore as the office off a Good Doctor required / he instructed the conscience / and taught / that albeit the Magistrate failed / in the execution of the lawe / yet that the former yoke being broken / men were at their libertie / to enter into a newe contract of mariadge with other . Whereby he met with the corrupt opinion off those / which dreame that the knot of mariadge / is not cut a sunder by adulterie / during the life of the parties maried . Of the autorities which are brought / to proue that the punishements by death off the lawe off God / are taken away there is not one onely / but Cyrill / which maketh agaynst this cause / yea which doth not ether in part / or alltogether / ouerturne his assertion .

And as for Cyrill / I can at no hand allowe : the reason shall appeeare / where the clawes of this sentence are more plainly seen . Augustine in the place cited vnto Pollentius / hath nothing for the Doctor . For he setteth him selfe to proue vppon the place off S. Iohn / that the howsband ought to forgiue his wife / seing our sa. Christe forgaue the adulteresse . Wherin / not to enter into question / whether that be well reasoned of Augustine / or no / and to passe by the aduantage / which Erasmus autoritie may giue / which calleth that sentence off August . a hard sentence : I answer / that yt is one thing to say / a priuate man should forgiue his iuiuries , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . and nother thing to say / that the Magistrate is not bound to take aduengement of them . A priuate man / may with commendation forgyue the trespace agaynst him selfe / where the magistrate shal be in great fault / if he poursew not yt . And iff that place of August . perteine vnto the Magistrate / and our Sa. Christes example proue / that the Magistrate neede not punishe adultery by death : yt proueth as well / that he neede not punishe adulterie at all . For bothe our Sa. Christe / forgaue her f●ely / and gaue no sentence of any ciuill punishement against ●●r and Augu will haue the howsband / freely forgiue his adulterous wife Nay the place off Augustine maketh against him . for ●n that he exhorteth the howsband / to spare the bloud or life of his wife / yt appeareth / that in the church of God / in his times / this crime of adulterie was punished by death .

Musculus / albeit his maner off speache ( in saying that all Moses is abrogated ) be hard : yet I would first aske hym / what aduantage he can take here / for the abrogation off the Iudiciall / which is not the same against the Morall . Then let it be obserued / howe far against the meaning of the autor / the Ans. hath wrong this sentence and howe he is but a snatcher at sillabels / and a tearer of lerned mennes wordes from their meaning . The meaning off Musculus was / that these lawes abrogated as they were giuen by Moses / remaine notwithstanding as they conteined a perpetual equitie . For in the same title off lawes he writeth thus . There are In them c. of punis . of forbidden lust . ( saith he ) which thinck , that Christe did abrogate the punishement , prescribed by the lawe against adulterers , when he saide , nether doo I condemne the , goo and sinne no more . These be gaie fellowes , they thinke not of this , that our Sa. Christe came into the world , not to iudge , or punishe , but to saue sinners : and yet in the meane season , not to take away the punishementes of the lawe , gyuen of God his father , by Moses . Whereupon he sayde not symply , I condemne the not , or thow oughtest not to be condemned off any , &c. And so sheweth / howe if she had bene condemned / according to the sentence off the lawe : that the Lord would not haue saide against yt .

The like trust he hath vsed / in alledging off M. Caluin . Which albeit he saie / that there be certen Iudicialls / to the precise obseruation whereoff the magistrate is not bound ( which I did likewise set downe ) yet that he esteemed certen Iudicialls vnchangeable / and those especially which I haue alledged : it may appeare / in that he calleth it the Popishe diuinitie , that the sentence In his com . vpp Iohn . Har. in Mo. super iudic . 7. mandati . off our Sau. Christe / in the eight off Iohn / brought any grace to adulterers / as towching the ciuill punishement . And in an other place he saithe / that yt is the common right , or lawe of all nations , that adulterers should be put to death which he affirmmeh also of murtherers / in the place set downe by the D. ) and that yt is a sortishe imitation off our Sauiour , and proceding from a grosse ignorance : Vnder colour off the place in S. Iohn / s. to release the punishement of adulterers / prescribed in the lawe . And in an other place / speaking off the false Prophet / which tourning Har. in c. 13. v. 5 : Deut. away the people from God / is commanded to be put to death ) he saithe / that lawe is euerlasting , apperteining as well vnto vs nowe / as vnto the Iewes in times past : and pincheth them which say otherwise .

As for M. Beza / which is here brought / yt is knowne / that euen in the same booke / owt of which these testimonies be cited off the Ans. he proueth / that heretikes owght by vertue off the lawe off God gyuen by Moses to be put to death . Whereby appeareth / that all these will haue certen Iudicialls / off moses / and those especially that giue sentence off death / against the crimes which I setdowne / to be still in as full force as euer they were . Vnto whom I could adde Peter Martyr / which hath a longe dispute off the necessarie obseruation / off the punishement off the lawe against adulterers . And as for Hemingius / considering that he agreeth / that so much remaineth off necessitie / as perteineth to the lawes of nature : he maketh nothing against me which both haue shewed / and further am readie to shewe : that all those crimes are off that kinde / which by the lawe off nature / ought to receiue the reward of death . Howe for so much as the 8. Diuision off the 2. cha. in the 3. Tract. perteineth vnto this matter : I will here set downe the answer off yt .

8. Diuiston . pa. 149.

Here is to encounter withe Zacharie the Prophet / Cyrill / and suche a corrupte sentence off Cyrill / as doothe at once / bothe ouerthrowe vnder the lawe / the iustice of God againste synne / in the worlde to comme : and vnder the Gospell / all manner off corporall punishementes in this worlde / to be executed by men / vppon those whiche hauinge done euill / repente them . For yt dothe not onelye affirme / but yt goethe a bowte to proue : that the synne whiche was vnder the lawe punished by corporal deathe / coulde not be punished off the lorde / by eternall deathe / which as it is a wicked error ( the rewarde off synne beinge not onely deathe off Rom. 6. the body / but off the sowle also : ) so the two pillers wheroff yt standethe / are as detestable .

For the firste / whiche is / that they haue suffred punishemente fo their synnes , and receiued the rewarde off their wickednes , so that for that faulte whiche they so suffer for , there can be no reuengement afterwarde hange ouer their sowles : yt is no les despiteful to the iustice of god and iniurious to the deathe of Christe : then the popishe doctrine of supererogation . For if an adulterer by suffring deathe for his crime / hathe answered the iustice of god / so that the lorde for that faulte / can not take aduenge mente of his sowle : when a man suffrethe withowte cause and for righteousnes sake / howe owghte he not beside his owne purgacion for synne / purchase somewhat for him that lackethe ?

As for the other reason / yt is moste false . For the lorde , punishe the one synne / by other synnes / by deathe in this worlde / and by deathe in the worlde to come , yt is also a false grounde off the Pelagian heretike / wherwithe he woulde proue / that our original corruption is no synne / whiche can deserue the wrathe off God . And as the former parte fighte the for the Papistes / and for the Pelagians : so this other / standethe for the Anabaptistes / men whom the aswerer pretendethe / to haue war withe / but to whom in deede / he ministrethe weapons ( suche as they be ) to fighte againste the trewthe . For yf this be not Anabaptisticall / that there is no bodily punishemente laide vpon publike offenders vnder the gospell , and that whatsoeuer offence he committe , if he shewe tokens off repentance , he maye be deliuered from bodylie punishemente : I knowe not what is Anabaptisme For what murtherer is there / what traitor / &c. whiche althoughe he be neuer so vnrepentante / and obstinate in his synne hauinge hearde tell off the answerers gracious pardon / will not enforce himselfe / to shewe all tokens off repentance ? whiche if he doo / the eie off mens iudgemente beinge not hable to perce further / then to thes owtwarde signes : they muste haue him for repentante / althowghe he remaine the same whiche before . And if there be one suche sentence / in all either the admonition / or my replie / so iniurious to the office off the magistrate / so pernicious vnto all manner of common welthes / as this is : wee refuse not ( that I maye also promise for the Admonitors ) to be taken as enemies / vnto the magistrate and as ouerturners off common welthes . For this is the sworde ( whiche S. Paule put in the magistrates hande Rom. 13. / to be drawne not of pleasure / but off dewtie / not againste the vnrepentante onelye but againste the vnrighteousnes off those whiche shall publikly offende whatsoeuer ) either striken cleane owte of his hande : or els if ante remaine / yt is more worthie to be called the signe off the sworde / then the sworde . Nowe yf twoo notable errors / be hable to proue one trewthe : he maye be thowghte to haue browghte something / for the iustifyinge off this pullinge downe off the walle off the common welthe . But iff it muste needes be false / whiche hath nothinge to leane vppon but error : I dowbte not but as the vntrewthe of yt doothe by yt selfe appeare : so by this so shameles defence / yt is laide more open .

And where he saithe / that this sentence off Cyrill , maie Minister occasion of quarrelinge vnto suche as be disposed : I answere / that there can be no peace withe this sentence / but by betrayinge the trewthe : and that the vntrewthe of yt is so apparante / that all the patched shiftes whiche he hathe / shall neuer be hable to hide yt . But howsoeuer yt be ( saithe he ) this is euidente . What : forsooth that the quantitie off synne is not to be estemed , accordinge to the externall punishmente . Howe is it euidente / by what worde / or by what sentence ? yff the autoritie off the sentence fall : iff it consistinge vppon two partes / haue neuer a one trewe : yff in that verie poincte for whiche yt is alledged / yt is moste false : where ys your Howe so euer ? yow are a daungerous aduersarie to deale withe al / for whether the profes yow t bringe be trewe / or whether they be false : they fall still vpon your syde .

But if the heynousenes of the synne / be not to be estemed according to the corporall punishmente : wherby is it then to be estemed ? accordinge ( saie yowe ) vnto the commaundemente of god , accordinge to the threates of god pronounced againste yt . As thowghe yt were not the commaundemente off God / that there shoulde be bodylie punishemente : and as thowghe the ciuill punishementes in this worlde / were not parte off those threates / wherwithe the lorde threatneth the breakers of his lawe . Yow make therfore an opposition / where none is : And it is all one as if yow had saide / the corne maye not be moten withe a bushel / but withe a measure . For as the busshell / is one measure : so is the corporall punishemente / bothe one off the commaundementes / and off the threates Prouer. 6. of god / againste open sinnes . Salomon prouethe Adultery to be a greater sinne / then thefte : for that where a thefe was not / the adulterer was purswed vnto deathe , wherbie it is manifest / that She lomo was of this iudgement / that in open faultes / committed against a godly / and honest peace : the greater faultes owght to be punished / with more greauous punishement . And if equalitie of punishement in vnequall faultes / be iniustice : how myche more is yt iniuste / to punishe greater faultes / with les / and lesser with greater punishements ? And therfore that nothinge shoulde be wantinge / to proue the doctor a perfecte confounder / and tumbler of thinges in to the heapes of disorder : he dothe not onelie put no difference / betwene the thinges whiche are seperate : but in those also whiche are ioyned together / he imagineth suche enemitie : as yf the one standinge / the other coulde not remaine . And as for his reason / that we see smaller faultes punished withe greater tormente : the question is not what we see doone / but what owghte to be done . I graunte that one / and the same faulte / maie be punished sharpelier in one contrie / then in an other : in the same contrie also sharpelier at some tyme / then at an other : But I denie / that theroff yt followethe / that in the same contrie / and at the same tyme / a greater faulte shoulde be punished withe lighte punishmente / and a lighter withe a greate : whiche thinge / seinge yow excepte againste a generall rule / owght to haue beene shewed . And the vanitie off this startinge hoole / whiche is soughte in the diuersitie of contries / maye partlie appeare / in that to the people off the Iewes / and in the countrie off Iewry the lorde did neuer make lawe / to punishe a les faulte / by a greater punishement . And yet yt is certaine / both that people and countrie / had some thing different from others : and that in gyuinge lawes to that people / he had respecte boothe to them and their countrie . whereby I conclude / that diuersities off punishementes / accordinge to the state off the countries / may be established : althowghe ther be no suche disorder committed / off punishinge small faultes greuously / and greuous faultes . smallye .

And wheras he saithe / that he makethe the difference off the seueritie off the lawe , and lenitie off the gospell no further then in respecte off the temporall punishemente off the lawe : euen that is the very poincte / wherin a greate parte off the error off the Maniches / doothe consiste . For they were led / to condemne the iustice off God vnder the olde Testamente : because off the owtewarde punishementes / whiche were exercised / partly by the hande of God by iudgementes from heauen : partely by the ministerie off men / at the commaundemente off the lawe / therfore the sauour off Manichisme / is still as hoat as euer yt was .

And because I am entred into the mention off this / althowghe the answerer can not hyrte off yt : yet the trewthe is / that euen in thes outwarde punishmentes / the dispensation off God vnder the lawe / is diuers from that whiche is vnder the gospell . For vnder the scolemastershipe of the lawe / as he crowned the obedience of yt / for the moste parte / withe greater aboundance off owtward blessinges / then he dothe the obedience off his sainctes vnder the Gospell : so did he withe more terrible / oftener / and more manifeste iudgementes / reuenge the breache off yt in that time / then he dothe nowe . And herein indeede is the difference whiche he is gropinge a bowte : but that this shoulde bringe any diuersitie / in the set and ordinarie punishementes / prescribed by the lawe : I for my parte can not vnderstand / The contrarie rather I can gather . For euen as althowghe the lorde dothe not nowe by owtward blessinges / giue so plentifull testimonie vnto the obedience off the gospell / as then off the lawe : yet the magistrate owghte to be as diligente / to procure the Good off the churche / as euer he was in the time off the law : euen so / althowghe the lorde by bodilie punishementes / doothe not so seuerelie reuenge as he did then : yet the magistrate / maye not remitte any thinge therfore off that seueritie / whiche he was wonte to vse . Nay more : euen as the magistrate / owghte so muche more carefully procure / the owtwarde welfare of the churche nowe : as the lorde withdrawethe his hande that waies / more nowe / then he did then : euen so owghte he to kepe / by so much a harder hande / ouer the punishemente off synne now / then he did then : as the lorde / more rarely thundereth by his Iudgements from heauen / nowe / then he did in the time off the lawe .

And surely / if there euer had beene any time / wherin the magistrates sworde mighte haue rested / and rusted in the sheathe : the time off the lawe / of all had beene fitteste : when the lorde / did so visiblye sit in his iudgmente seat / and him selfe in proper person / holde the assise / and gaile deliuerie . The causes off that diuersitie / betwene the lawe / and the Gospell / whiche I haue alledged / maye be fetched from those lerned men / whiche handle this poincte : yt is enowghe for me / so to haue helped the answerer owte / withe that whiche he trauailed with : that I haue not onelie shewed / howe this cause is nothinge hindered / but greatly helped therby .

Yff the plaine wordes off the Prophete Zacharie / will not serue for our pourpose : what shall become off your cause / that hathe neuer a worde of the scripture ? let vs then heare / why it will not serue . Because forsoothe by that meanes , the parentes shoulde haue powre of deathe vppon their children : and therfore their muste some other sense be sowgthe / then that whiche the wordes doo proporte . Wherunto I answere / that Moses shewinge what owghte be Deut. 13. 9. ver. doone / against those false teachers / whiche goe abowte secretly / to withdrawe from the trewe worship of God : saithe / that allthoughe he be his brother / his soōe / his dawgther / or his wiffe / he shal not spare / but fill them . Tell men owe I praie yow / doothe not Moses meane there truly / and as his wordes sounde / that the false teacher shall die ? If yow dare not denie yt : then yow see / yowr reason whiche yow heere assigne / is nothing worthe : for there also / yt is commanded to the father / to kill his sonne .

Now if yow liste to lerne / yow maye perceiue that by thes wordes / vnderstanded simplie / there is no powre giuen to one priuate man / to kil another / nor for the parente ( as a priuate man ) to kill his children : but this manner off speache / is grounded vppon the lawe off God / wherby yt was prouided / that the witnesse Deut. 17. 7. ver. whiche had accused / shoulde throwe the firste stone againste the conuicted person . for so muche therfore / as boothe Moses / and Zachary after Moses / wil haue the father accuser of his owne childe / if the knowledge off his inticemente to Idolatrie / remaine withe him alone : therfore also they ascribe the killinge of the giltie person vnto them / as a thinge belonginge vnto the dewtie off the accuser .

But seeinge this sense please the yow not / let vs heere what yow bringe . Yf ( saithe he ) yow will referre yt to the tyme of the gospell , then this is the true meaninge : if to the time off the lawe , then that . Yf al be gospell yow speake / we muste needes beleue yow ▪ yf your wordes haue no further aucthoritie / then yow gyue them by Good reason / and conference off the scriptures : then castinge a waye the sense / whiche hathe warrante off the manyfeste wordes off the Scripture : yow shoulde haue confirmed by substanciall argumentes / that whiche yow haue set downe . The prowde Sorbonistes / and Magistri nostri off Paris / did neuer vsurpe a more absolute auctoritie / and more owte off rule then this is : And yt is to bringe in an intollerable Tyrannie into the churche off God / and lordeshippe not to be abydden . Whiche when I vnderstande off all interpretations off men / be they neuer so lerned / and sharpe : muche more off suche wooden interpretations whiche the answerer thruste the vppon vs . But tell me Good Sir / what difference is there betwene yowr firste interpretation / and yowr seconde ? For iff vnder the gospell , it be lawfull ( as yowr exposition suppose the ) for parentes to kyll ther children whiche shall prophecey falsely : what leue yow to the Iewes / wherin they differ from the Christians ? and tell me also / howe yow differ herin / from that whiche I set downe : that Idolatrie owghte to be punished withe deathe vnder the gospell ?

But pardon me / I thinke I see yowr difference / which is / that the Iewes muste doo yt accordinge to the lawe off Moses / and the Christians accordinge to the lawe off whome ? why kepte yow backe that ? Surely iff the Christians be bounde to doo yt ( as yowr interpretation saythe ) they are bounde to doo yt by the lawe off Moses : for I knowe no other lawe off preceptes / but that .

There is yet another difference / whiche yowr wordes maye gyue suspicion off : that is / that the Christian parentes shoulde rather put them to deathe / then be withdrawne by them : so that the Iewes haue a symple commaundemente to put them to deathe / but the Christians haue yt vnder condition / yf they can not otherwise kepe still the trewe worshippe off God . But where / and in what shopp is this difference coyned ? Whose Image / and superscription beare the yt ? the Doctors . What Paules ? no Whitgyftes . I knowe him not / yt is not good . For howe shall they be sure they shall not be withdrawne by him : onles they procure hym to be put to deathe ? And althowghe they were owte off perill off beinge withdrawen : how are other prouided for / whome he maye corrupte ? And yff it were possible that poison which he hathe / coulde not hurte any other : where is the reuenge off Godds glorye / whiche hathe bene dishonored by suche false teachinge / and in the maintenance wheroff / the zeale off the children off God / aswell vnder the gospell as vnder the lawe / dothe consiste ? Thes differences betwene his interpretacions he giueth incklinge off / but the folye off them was so apparante / that he durste not laye them open .

And althowge we haue alredy to manye interpretations by one : yet here comethe the thirde . And this is an allegorie / whiche expoundeth killinge , confutinge . Where firste / the answerer shoulde haue remembred / that he condemned in the Admonition allygoryinge as Papistical / ( whiche in deede is not so muche Papisticall / as Anabaptisticall ) allbeit they fetched their allegorie / from two famous men / maister Hoper and Maister Alasco . Here yt is Catholike in him / that was there Papisticall in them . then obserue Good reader / howe he that chalenged the Admo . For makinge the holy scripture a nose off wax , and me that I make yt yt a shipmans hose : hathe here set vpp three interpretations off one / and the same place . Off whiche althoughe neuer a one / can stande with a nother : yet becawse he thinkethe they all make for him / he stickethe not euen to strike hym selffe / to gyue a pricke vnto the truthe .

And as for maister Luther / I answere withe Ierome : whiche ( albeit he did not so well practise it him selfe ) yet in one place of the smaller Prophetes ( that cometh not now to my minde ) saithe / that to seeke for an alligorie , where a Plaine and litterall sense maie be had : is to seeke a knotte in a rishe . Seinge therfore the scripture meaneth here as it speaketh / and calleth a spade a spade / and a figg a figg : to expounde killinge confuttinge , and corporall weapons spirituall / and heretikes heresies : is by Maister Luthers Good leaue / owte off season .

Futhermore if Maister Luther shoulde by confutinge off their herysies / shut owte the corporall punishmente off deathe : he hath the Answ. interpretation ( whiche he calleth them true meaninge off the place ) for enemie . So that either maister Luthers meaninge was / that they shoulde not onely put them to deathe / but also confute their heresies : or els yt serueth as well to ouerthrowe that / whiche the answerer hathe set downe / as that which we mainteine .

But obserue here I beseche yow / the shamfull practise off the Answ. If Maister Caluine / or Maister Gualter vppon thes places / had had any thinge for him / that shoulde haue bene set downe : iff they had had nothinge againste him / he woulde ( as h● hathe doone in diuers places ) haue vsed that nothing / as a preiudice vnto the truthe : nowe he perceyued they were directly againste him / he is fledd to Maister Luther / to borowe this sentence off him . What iff I had alledged the authoritie off Maister Caluin / Maister Beza / Maister Martyr / Maister Gwalter / and diuers others / for the confirmation off this sentence / that heretykes owghte to be put to deathe nowe / as well as false Prophetes vnder the lawe : what if I had browghte maister Caluins / and maister Gualters interpretation off this place off Zacharie / expoundinge yt as I haue doone ( wheroff also one off them / callethe those fanticall spirites / whiche contrarie this doctrine ) What place shoulde Maister Luthers allegorie haue had / againste suche an hoste off learned men / cominge so strongly with substantiall argumentes / fetched from the symple meaninge off the scriptures ? Yet all men of any reading knowe that this might easely haue bene doon : if I would haue sought to preiudice yowr parte / by the authoritie off men

I concluded onelie off that place off Zacharie ( againste yowr fonde distinction ) that the same seueritie off punishemente / that was vsed againste false Prophetes then : owghte to be vsed nowe vnder the gospell / againste false teachers / comparing one parson / and circomstance withe a nother . As he that hathe fallen awaie from God / and goone abowte to drawe others away : to be handled accordinge to the lawe prescribed in that chap. 13. off Deut. if this be bloudie , and extreme : I am contente to be so counted / withe the holie goste : and then shall not yow smell off Manichisme / but be a flat Manichean . And althowghe in other cases off Idolatrie / vppon repentance liffe is giuen / as in the examples off the Lenytes / fallinge awaie from the truthe / in the generall reuolte off the people : yet in this case off willing sliding backe In the next treatise . / and mouing others to the same : and other some cases / whiche are expressed in the lawe / as off open / and horrible blasphemie off the name off God : I denie that vppon repentance / ther owghte to followe any pardon off death / whiche the Iudiciall lawe dothe require .

And where yow saye / that there is no example , from the natiuitie off Christe vnto this howre : firste yow greatly forget / how euill yow intreate them whiche reason negatiuely off autoritie : and how yow crie owte vppon them / which ( as yow saye ) off a thinge not doone , conclude yt owghte not be doone . And this reason is yet worsse : for yt woulde conclude / that no Idolater repentante / shoulde be put to deathe / because ther was none so handled / within a certeine space . Then yow maye vnderstande / that the princes whiche haue mainteined the gospell all this while yow speake off / by whome thes executions shoulde haue bene doone / haue bene bothe fewe in number / and off small endurance off tyme . And yet althowghe Constantyne the Emperour were to mylde a prince / and did as Eusebius witnessethe / muche harme in the churche 4. lib. off the liffe off Const. 1. lib. 9. cap. with his clemencie : yet he made a lawe as Socrates testifiethe / that as manie as were founde to haue any writinge off Arius shoulde die for yt . iff that were put in execution / as is to be thowghte : the example theroff comethe nothinge behinde in seueritie / that which is here defended .

Thirdely they did not lacke / Good / and faithfull admonitours to vse this seueritie . For one writinge vnto the two bretherne Emperours / Constance / and Constantins / shewethe that they owghte Iulius firmicus Mater●us . to punishe Idolatrie withe all seueritie : and alledginge this lawe in 13. Deutr. and another off the destruction off a whole citie / whiche shall be partaker off suche slyding away / saythe / that they are commaundementes vnto the Emperours . I haue read also in some storye / off Aluredus a Kinge off Englande whiche made a lawe / that whatsoeuer he were that wente frome Christianitie to Paganisme / shoulde render his liffe for yt . and not onely the newe testamète / but the olde also / is the store howse where owte we take our argumentes / to proue the truthe / and to impugne the contrarie . Therfore yt is an euill argumente / to saye / yt can not be shewed owte off the newe Testamente , therfore yt is not true : when as a man maye rather reason / that forsomuche as yt can not be shewed owte off the olde testamente / therfore yt is not true . Consideringe that there is no doctrine in the newe Testamente / which is not conteined in the olde : and there is somewhate in the olde Testamente / whiche is not to be found in the newe . And yet forsomuche as I haue shewed / euen owte off the newe Testamente / that he that killethe a man / and takethe awaie his corporall liffe owghte to die : yt followethe muche more / that he whiche takethe a waie the liffe off the sowle / shoulde die . And iff yt be meete to mainteine the liffe off man / by the punishement off deathe : howe shoulde the honor off God / whiche is more precious then all mens liues / be withe smaller punishemente established ?

Therfore to close vpp this question / I will ad this : That the magistrates whiche punishe murther / and rheftes / and treasons / withe other transgressions off the seconde table seuerely / and are lose in punishinge the breaches off the firste table / beginne at the wronge ende : and doo all one withe those / whiche to drie vpp many riuers fedd continually by one fountaine / begynne at the chanels where yt deuidethe / and partethe yt selfe into manie armes : whiche as yt is an endles labour / so is this also that they Goo abowte . For when as S. Paule teacheth / that God for iuste reuenge off the dishonor off his name / and staininge off his glorie / 1. Rom. giue the men into wicked mindes / to the committinge of all kinde off synnes / conteined in the second table / be they neuer so horrible / and so makethe the breache off the firste table / cause off the breache off the seconde : yt can not be ( let the magistrate late as Good watche as he can / boothe multiplie / and aggrauate his punishmentes as muche as he can ) I saye yt can not be / but where ether the firste table is broken / or the breache not dewly reuenged swarmes off treasons / theftes / murthers / adulteries / periuries / and suche like / muste needes breake owte in those gouernmentes . And therfore as the shorte / and easye waie to drie vp the chanels / and riuers is to stoppe the heade / and fountaine off all : so the onelie remedie of purginge the common wealthe off thes pestilences / is to bende the force off sharpe and seuere punishementes / especially againste Idolaters / blasphemers / contemners of trw Religion / and off the seruice off God And therfore I conclude / that those whiche woulde haue the seueritie of the lawe againste Idolaters abated / doo at vnawares / not onelie therby vtter the small price whiche they set / ether off Godes glorie or of the saluation of their brethren : but withall declare them selues enemies to common wealthes / and off all bothe cyuill / and Godly honestie of liffe .

Your conscience Maister W. and the conscience of all men beare witnes / that bothe here / and almoste euery where / yow wringe my wordes clean contrary to my meaninge : and therin I am well contente the Iudgemente remain with the reader . And althowghe I am fully perswaded / that ther was no occasion taken off euill by this doctrine : yet if any weare / it beinge the doctrine of the holy Goste / whoso euer hathe taken occasion of euill / hathe without repentance borne his punishemente : and so shall yowe moste assuredly in that daye / wherin the mouthe off wickednes shall be stopped .

Yt maie not be passed by / that he in the begininge of the firste of thes sections / matched the lawes off the Iewes / whiche were the lawes gyuen by God him selfe / withe the lawes of the moste barbarous / and Prophane Tyrant that euer was : suche is the reuerece he beareth to the lawes of God . Note also that where I saie / that I will ioyne withe him , that the transgressions off the lawe vnder the gospell , are to be seuerelyer punished , then they were vnder the lawe : He in pretendinge / and makinge a brage that he woulde ioyne / slyppethe me clean a syde / and saythe / that he will ioyne withe me that the magistrate is not bounde to the iudiciall lawe off Moses , for the manner off punishinge : as thowghe that were any thinge like / that whiche I propounded . And in that he answerethe no one worde / to the two reasons whiche I alledged / that is to saye / for that bothe the knowledge off the lawe is greater nowe then than , and other gyftes off the spirite off God , wherby the lawe shoulde be better kepte , more aboundantly powred oute nowe then then : he dothe not onely slyppe a side / but turnethe his blinde partes towardes me .

Nowe to returne backe / to the Diuis . pag. 123. I leaue to the iudgement off the reader / howe importunate an aduersarie the D. is : which requireth answer of that / which hath been so often answered . In the next Diuis . p. 124. seeking to mainteine his logicke in diuiding / and defining / he maketh him selffe pytifull / to all that euer saluted that scoole . For what an absurd saying is yt / that becawse the definition off a generall thing , agreeth vnto his particular : therfore yt is the definition off the particular ? As though euery thing / which were verefied of an other / were by and by the definition off it : or as thoughe the same coulde be the definition / of the generall and of the speciall . And what a miserable defence of his diuision is yt / which to proue that his three last partes / are not conteined vnder the first : alledgeth / that they are not all one with the first ? But as I promised / I will leaue this to the learned reader : that I leese not the tyme / in confuting off these tryfles . The rest off his section is answered before .

In the next / beside the sentence which I denie / and he vntruly fathereth off Zuing. that in Ceremonies , thinges are to be vsed in the church , which are not conteined in the scriptures ▪ There is nothing / which maketh any thing vnto the question . For where he saieth / that I mislike that of Zuing. ( If they be not repugnant to the word ) I haue tould him before / that I neuer found fault with that / but becawse he condemned the Ad. which will haue them caste in the mould off the word off God . And as for Maister Bezaes sentence repeted here / off discipline left in the order off the church , and that some thinges doon off the Apostles , are not alwaies to be followed off vs : whereby it seemed the D. would make the reader belieue / that he meaneth this / off the pointes of discipline nowe debated : yff I should herein charge him with vntrue dealing / vppon Maister Bezaes booke off Epist. Which declareth in so many Epist. 11. 14. 20. 83. places / and wordes / that there is a Discipline off God left vnto his churche vnchangeable / and precisely determined in the word off God : and howe he maketh the partes thereoff / the same which the D. fighteth against with might / and maine : he would paraduenture saie / that he could take no notice off that / which was not yet brought to light . But when the same booke from whence he drewe thes outorities / mainteneth those partes off discipline towching the Eldershipp / the consent off the church in Eccesiasticall elections / the right institution off Deacons / &c. as necessarye / which he will haue arbitrarie : he owght to haue vnderstanded / that those thinges which M. Beza noteth / vnder the name off Discipline left at the order off the church , are nothing lesse then these / which he would insinuate . Which he might yet easelier haue vnderstanded / by the place which he alledgeth out off the Corinthes / that leaueth yt not in the churches power / ether who shall gouerne / or what they ought to doo which must gouerne : but howe that gouernement which is prescribed / may be vsed most decently / in regard off circumstance off time / &c. For euen in that place / the Apostle defining off certen pointes of discipline / ( as that wemen ought not to speake in the church , &c. ) declared sufficiently / that he ment not to leaue the gouernement off the church / in her owne disposition / and order . But what M. Beza ment by this arbitrarie Discipline / yt shall yet better appeare in the next tractate / off the Election off the church : where this here spoken generally / shall there belaied open by example . the reste off this Diuis . is answered .

In the next Diuis . I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader pag. 130. / whether I haue truly gathered off his wordes . As for the defense he maketh to proue / Truly and Purely all one ( for so he must / if he mainteine his answer ) the first reason he bringeth / ( that a man may preache true thinges , and not truly ) is cleane ouerthrowne by his owne answ. for to ouerthrowe ( that which he falsely attributeth vnto the Adm. ) that the word is not truly preached , becawse the Ministers are not duely called : he saithe / that the reason is not Good / becawse ho we wicked soeuer the man be which preacheth , yet he may preache the true word off God . Here ether the Ans. must make to preache true thinges / and to preache truly all one : or els he hath not answered to the argument he supposeth the Adm. to vse . The other is / for that S. Paul vseth these wordes in truthe , for syncerely . Wherein beside the former fault ( which is the contrarietie with him selfe ) he should haue learned / that that maner off speach / is taken off the Ebrues : which as they call a lie / not onely that which is spoken / but that which is doon / or imagined against the truthe : so likewise contrary . Which maner off speach not being receiued in our tounge / is fondly / and out off time pretended : considering also / that the translations in our tounge ( as in others ) haue shunned that phrase / as that which they could not reache vnto .

Tract. 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the minister . Cap. 1. Diuis . 1. Off the Tryall off ministers in learning and conuersation .

THe replie standeth vpon the certeine / and vnfallible grounde Pag. 133. off the worde off God : which is / that the churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Ministery / without good tryal off his sufficientie . Then yt is vpholden / off the wordes off the texte / that twoo were set vpp / and caused to stand before the congregation . For after that sainct Peter had declared / what maner off man he owght to bee / which Act. 1. 23. should fill vp the voide place off Iudas : immediatly S. Luke sheweth / that twoo were put vpp / as if he shoulde saye / consider whether thes he suche / or no / as ought to chosen / and which agree with that which is required off him / that must supplye this place . The reason wheroff was / for that all the men which where in the churche at that time : were not capable off that function / hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our sauiour Christe continually / from the begininge off his preaching / vntill the day off his ascension .

And vnles that S. Peter mente to subiect those vnto the tryall off the churche / which were to be chosen : why instructed he the churche / and gaue a rule to seuer / and trie them by ? After the churche agreed / eyther by voice / or by silence / that they were suche as behoued : S. Peter wente forwarde / and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte . And that this is the plaine / and naturall order off that action : he that hathe but one eye / may easely see . The scripture is shorte / and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges : and touchinge certein pointes off a storie / leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader : sometimes which was doone before / by expressing that which was doone after : other sometimes that which is doone after / by expressing that which was doone before . Whereoff ( yff neede were ) yt is not harde / to shew diuers examples : And theroff is that sentence so often vsed off the Hebrew Doctours / 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 The Scripture stayeth yt selfe vpon , or presumeth an vnderstanding reader : withowt the whiche yt shall seme very vnsufficient / that ys most perfect / and withowt the which / a greate portion off the worde of God / ys loste .

And where as yow saye / that yt is certaine that there was no tryall , because they were sufficiently knowne : first / yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte / that they were sufficiently knowen . And considering that ( as yt comethe comonly to passe / in a persequuted churche ) there were by al likelihood some / lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to them / althowghe they were well knowne to others . Then the question is not / whether they were examined or no : but wether they were set vpp to be tried : so that iff there were a proferr off tryall / althowghe no tryall folowed : the place ys aptly alledged . For albeit they were knowne to the whole companie / so that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour / or other thinges whiche are in the compas off the churche / to iudge of : yet that ys no cause / why they shoulde not be offered to the examinacion . Nether is yt reason / that the knowne habylytie off some one / or twoo : shoulde breake an ordinary lawe / in the churche off God . And yow that haue serued your selfe / more than once / or twyce / withowt cause ( as shall appeare ) off the manner of ciuill elections / to ouerthrowe the Ecclesiasticall : might here by the consideration off them / haue bene delyuered / from this abusinge off yowr selfe / and others . Yow knowe in the election off followes / and scolers / where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be chosen be neuer so sufficient / and there sufficientie neuer so well knowne / to all to whom the choise belongethe : yet the offer of themselues to be examined / is so necessary / that if that be not : they can by no meanes be chosen . If therfore mans lawe / in suche small elections / hath suche force / that yt will giue place to no mans excellencye / or singularitie : how muche more owght the lawe of God / which byddethe generally without exception / that they shoulde be tryed which are promoted to the ministery , in so greate / and weighty an election / 1. Tim. ● . ver. 10. to kepe her force ?

Where yow say / ther was no other cause off presenting them , then that which is expressed in the text : tell me what cause is expressed / off presentinge them in the congregation ? surely none that I reade . those two which I alledged in my replie / are gathered / but none is expressed . So that yf there were no other cause / off there presenting / then that which is expressed : there shoulde be none at all / and that action off the Apostles / should be to no purpose . What expresse wordes are there in the texte , contrary to this tryall , or at the lest offer off triall ? the wordes shoulde haue bene noted / the meaning shoulde haue bene beaten owte : where we neede your helpe / there you forsake vs . where the meaning is cleare / and without controuersie / there you trouble your selfe / and vs boothe .

Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt must be followed wholy , saith the answere . This is very definitiuely / and magistrally said : and being a dangerous error ( as that which tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifest heads of Christian religion ) is notwithstanding farced / with scoffing questions in derision off the truthe . I neuer learned , nor I doo not vse / to add , or take away from the word off God : I expounde the scripture / and gather off it / which is not to add : and in saying / that something is not to be followed off vs , I take nothing away : for I confesse yt to be so as the storie reporteh . And althoughe that parte be no example to follow : yet euen now / and to the ende / yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine . But if I take away from the scripture / because I say / that some Parte of that action is not to be followed : you do muche more / that saye / nothing theroff ys to be followed . I distinguishe beweēne that which was for a tyme / and that which is perpetual : and to distinguishe / is not to dismember . Al the reuelations I haue / are owt off the reueled worde off God : I knowe that this parte off this action , touching the examination / ys to be followed , because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture : thother not so / for that yt hathe not / the like confirmacion . This spirite off slumber / whearwithe the lorde hathe striken yowe in that yowe say / that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obserued wholely : shall better appeare when I come to yower answer / of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke / where this is handled .

No doubte ( saith he ) this is an extraordinary example . As Archidamus 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Plut. said to his sonne / beinge to venterowse / and boldhardy / either put to more strenght , or take awaie some of this courage : so I must admonishe yow / that either yow woulde come stronger withe argumentes / or els goo softlier / to thes doctoral determinations . Is yt without all doubte , that all thinges are here extraordinary : nothing of necessitie to be followed ? For so yow say / when yow will not haue yt followed in other parte / because some one is not to be followed . What is yt not necessary / to admonishe those to whom the election off the ministers belongeth : to tell them what maner a one owght to be chosen ? if that be not / yet ys not this necessary : to commend the election of the minister of the worde / to the praiers of those whiche are presente at the election ?

And where as he saithe / that yt being extraordinary , is not off necessitie to be followed ; he should haue saide / that being extraordinary / yt owght not to be followed . Now when he graunteth them to be suche as may be vsed / althowghe not necessaryly : he concludeth against him selfe / that they are not extraordinary . for as those thinges whiche are ordinarie in the worde off God / owght to be followed : so those thinges that are extraordinary are by no meanes of vs / withowt an extraordinary spirite / to be followed : thinges whiche may be doone / or lefte vndoone / are nether ordinary / nor extraordinari / but haue a meane nature betweene bothe . But as it is in in prouerbe / the egle ketcheth no flies : Maister D. hathe greater matters in hande then thes : and yet to keepe the proprietie of speche / profiteth muche / to the keping off the purenes of doctrine .

But the wordes off maister Caluine ( saithe he ) are plaine . So they are in deede / plaine to shewe your great vntreuth / and plaine to shewe that which I contende for : that is / that althowghe some thinges are not to be followed : yet other some thinges in this election / are and owghte to serue / for the direction off the election off the ministers nowe . And because you shall not abuse the reader / nether with the deniall off thinges to be so / which are manifest / nor guilfull escapes / wherwithe yow goe aboughte to defeate the autorities which I alledge : although yt be muche against my will / to lenghthen my booke with translating so thicke / and three folde of other mens sentences into mine : yet being driuen to yt / I had rather be somewhat troublesome to the reader : then that yowr vnhonest practises shoulde not appeare / to all that will not willingly close there eyes against the truthe . But before I cum to maister Caluine / I will set downe Cyprians wordes which are there commended by maister Caluin . Cyprian therfore ( speaking off the election of a Minister ) writethe amongest other thinges / thus . God commandeth that the preyst shoulde be placed before the face off the whole congregation off the Iewes : that is to 1. li. Epi. 4. say , he dothe teache , and shewe , that the ordeininges off the ministers , owghte not to be made , but withe the knowledge of the people standing by : wherby they being presente , either theyr faultes shoulde be discouered , or their vertues commended : and so it may be a iuste , and a lawfull ordination , which is by the voyces , and iudgementes of all examined . The whiche after ward according to the dyuine mastershippe , or authoritie , is obserued in the Actes off the Apostels : where Peter speaketh vnto the people , off ordeining a bishop into Iudas place . Off which place fyrst yt appeareth / that the people not onely had / but oughte to haue to doo / in the appointing off there minister : and that not by any custome / or decree off men / but by the eternall worde off God / bothe in the olde / and newe Testament . Also / that theyr right consisteth / bothe in examining the life off him which is to be chosen / and in the approbation off him yff they like off him / or refusall iff they like him not : which Cyprian proueth bothe by the 20. off the numbers / by this place / and the sixte off the actes / which he also citeth .

Now I come to maister Caluin . After he hathe in the 13. section / shewed that the election off the Apostell into Iudas place / is no certaine rule for our elections : he sheweth further whearin 4 li. 3. ca. yt is no rule : namely / for that the election there was committed to lotte / the vocation off an Apostell so requiring / that by the iudgement off the lotte / as yt were by Gods owne mowthe / a successour might be appointed in steed off Iudas . But in the 14. section / he sheweth the lorde so approuethe off the iudgment off men ( which he after expoundeth the churche ) that euen in the Apostels appointement / which haue this prerogatiue that they shoulde be created immediatly from God / the iudgment off the churche shoulde not be passed by : and to that endecitethe the 13. off the actes and 2. verse / and this place off the first off the actes and 23. verse / and off those places gathereth a perpetuall document / to establishe the discipline / and order off the churche in elections / for euer . Whearby appeareth / that maister Caluins minde / is not ( as the doctor woulde make vs beleue ) that ther can nothing be gathered out off this place / perteining to our elections .

Afterward / confuting them which vppon the places off Timothy 3. cap. 15. s . / and Titus / gooe abowte to proue that the election off the ministers / is in the Bishopps powre , he saithe thus / Wel therfore sayd CyPrian , whyle he contendeth that yt commeth off the authoritie off god , that the minister shoulde be chosen the people being presente , in the eies off all : and shoulde be by the common iudgment , and testimonie approued worthy , and fitt . And forth with reciting Cyprians wordes ( before alledged ) and quoting this place off the Actes / he concludeth in this sorte : wee haue therfore ( saith he ) that this is the lawfull vocation by the worde off God : where those which are chosen , are appointed by the consent and approbation off the people . Here againe yt is manifest / that Maister Caluine vseth this place off the Actes / to proue that the election owghte not to be withowte the approbation / and consent off the people . Furthermore / speaking against 4. li. 5. c. 2. s . the popishe election / for that in yt all is in the pleasure off the bishoppe . He citeth Leo and Cyprian / which proue that by the worde off God / the church owghte to haue her interest / in the election off the minister : and many Synodes / which dooe severely prohibite suche elections / and if they be made / commaund that they shoulde be off none effect . Then concludeth / yff thes thinges be trwe , there is this day in poperie no canonicall election , nether by Godes , nor by any ecclesiasticall lawe . And if there were nothing els , howe can they excuse them selues , that they haue spoiled the churche off her righte ? And so goeth forthe / with confuting off the same reasons off the Papistes / which are afterwardes alleadged off the doctor . This may be sufficiente / to let the reader vnderstande / howe the Ans. woulde shamefully abuse him / with the authorytie off M. Caluin . Wherin I doe not forget / that in going abowte to proue that this place off the Actes hathe place in diuers pointes in the ordinary election / I haue together with those places / belonginge to the examination / pressed also those which touche the election yt selffe . Which I did pourposely that I myghte not be compelled / to set downe thes places againe a litell after : Where yt beinge alleged for the election / which is here alledged for the examination / receiueth the same answere off the S. which this doothe .

Vnto my reason in the second Diuision / that if an examination pag. 133. be necessary for a deacon yt is muche more necessary for the minister , ( againste that he saide / that the fixt off the Actes , coulde not serue to proue any thinge , touching the ministers election , because yt was off deacons ) he answerethe not / but passethe by quietly / and maketh no wordes . But his other sayinge / that there is no mention made off any tryall , he holdethe still for good / askinge me what one worde off tryall is there ? I answere / that albeit there be not this worde trie , yet ther is that which wayeth as muche : for the greake worde loke 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 owte , can not be seuered from a triall . And if S. Luke had but vsed the symple verbe / which in our tounge signifieth consider / yet that off yt selffe had force to haue leade the chusers to a tryall / off them which were to be chosen : nowe vsinge the compounde / thereby he laide vppon them / a greater necessitie / and a more carefull diligence off triall off them . Where iff the Aposteles had not mente herby / to haue called the church to a diligente serche / and tryall off those which were to bee choosen : they woulde haue contented them selues to haue saide / take from emongest you , &c. And althoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were the fittest to be chosen to that office ( which is bothe vnlike / and almoste impossible / seinge there were certeine thowsandes off late added vnto the churche ) : yet euen those which are well knowen vnto vs / when they be to be chosen vnto suche great charges / are to be inquired into a freshe . For that knowledge off a man / whiche is sufficiente for vs to liue with him in priuate societie / and common course off life / is not enoughe to promote him to suche a dignity in the churche : and that experience off one / vppon confidence wheroff wee durste truste him with our weightiest affaires / is not sufficiente thereupon to commit vnto him the lordes matters . So that consideringe the weighte off an ecclesiasticall office / the manifolde creuisses off mans dissimulation / with the dullnes off our sighte to espie them : there can be no feare off too muche triall / euen off those whiche we thinke we knowe already . And therfore allthoughe the whole churche / had knowledge off those which were apte for that office : yet the Apostels admonition / off diligent considering whome they chose ( which coulde not be withowt tryall ) was not owte off time .

Againe that the Apostels giue in charge vnto the churche / that they shoulde chose suche as had testimonie off there good behauiour : perteineth to the examination / for the churche in seking testimonie off there good conuersation / tried them what they where . And vnles this be tryall : towching the conuersation off him which is to be chosen minister / in the churche of England there is no tryall at all : considering that the triall which is had / is by the testimonie off certeine . So I conclude that this place off the actes / makinge for the examination off the Deacon : is muche more stronge / for the examination of the minister . To the nexte section I answere not .

Diuis . 4. What is in the begining off the boke / because you pag. 135. set it not downe / and I haue not the boke to see : I will leaue to euery one to consider . Howbeit the wordes which I alledge owte off yt / where ( speaking to the Archedeacons ) he saithe / Take heede Pa. 25. that the persons whom you presente vnto vs be apre and meer● &c. declare that the bishope passethe his election / vppon the only examination off his Archedeacon . But yt makethe no great matter howe many examine / seinge the election / and ordination hangeth only vppon the Bishoppes pleasure . And he partly seinge / that all the matter standeth in the courteousie off the Bishoppe : and partly ( as yt semeth ) willinge / that that gowlfe shoulde swallowe vpp / all other mens interrestes in this election : setteth him selfe to proue yt .

And where as I alledged / that yt is not safe in so weightie a mater , to commit that to the powre of one , which may be with lesse daunger doone by many : he goeth abowt to proue / that the bishoppe is off all other fittest for that matter . Wherin obserue / that the D. is quyte goone from the cause . For the question is not / whether he be off others most fytt : but whether yt be fytt that he alone shoulde doe it . So that if he will haue it a reasone againste the cause / this yt is : The bishoppe is more hable then any one / to make a good examination / therfore more hable to make yt then a great sorte : more hable to make yt then any one / therfore more hable to make yt alone / then when he hath other ioyned with him . Which is all one / as iff he shoulde haue saide : The righte hande is more apte to doe thinges then the lefte / therfore yt is better they be doone by yt alone / then with the helpe off the lefte . I doe not here take exception / againste the longe experience in thes thinges , which he saithe the bishoppe hathe : yet he cannot haue it at his first orderinge of ministers : and others mighte haue yt as wel as he / if the examination were as well permitted vnto them / as vnto him . I medell not also with the bishopes either sounde learning , or ruled affections : which what they be in some / is well knowen / what theye maye be ( consideringe that they be not tied to the rochet ) yt is easie to be considered : Let him be as well experienced / learned / affected / as suche a bishopp maie be : yet hath he wonne nothinge by all this / but that the bishopp owght not to be shute oute / in this examination .

Where he saithe / Surely if any one man , or mo be voyd off such affefections , and thought meet to haue such matters committed vnto him , yt is the Bishopp : yt had bene good he had assured that Surely : with some reason : otherwise yt must ( as yt is ) be holden for an vnshamfaste begging / of that which is denied . And off the same sorte is that which followeth / that if he be worthie the office off a bishope , he maie safely be credited , with al thinges incident vnto the same : for this is that which lieth between vs : whether yt be incident to the office off a bishoppe to haue th onely examination off those , which are chosen to the ministerie . Which yff I coulde geue you : I woulde / to be ridd off thes importunat askinges .

Y● followethe not / because ciuill matters whiche touche the commoditie off this liffe / maie be committed to one : therfore ecclesiasticall also / whiche concerne the liffe to come / maie be so hazarded . Nay for so muche as mans insighte into ciuille affaires / and iudgement in them / is sharper then in matters perteininge to the churche : it is cleare / that there ye more helpe required in thes / then in the other . Besides that / when as princes by takinge counsailes vnto them in their weightie affaires off the whole realme / and for better deciding off priuate mens causes / appoincte whole be●ches off Iustices / standing off fiue / or sixe : they doo sufficiently declare therby / howe they haue the Iudgement off one ( be he neuer so wise ) greatly in suspition off error .

It is sufficient that the prouer be off moo eies seinge better then one , be trewe for the moste parte / which is the nature off a prouerbe : And in makinge off lawes / the lawe giuer respecteth what is for the most parte expediente / and not that whiche maie be good some times . For otherwise it might be saied / the bishoppe shoulde not medle withe the election / but his chapleine : because yt may happen / that he is more hable to medle in that matter / then the bishoppe : It is no smale owtrage yowe doe the churche off God / to accounte off yt / as off an ignorante multitude . For onlesse yowe meane the churche / when yowe saye / then a thowsand other whiche be ignorant : yowe speake beside the matter / seing wee doe not permitte either examination / or election off the ministers to euery multitude / and blinde assemblie : but vnto those onely / whiche make an open / and cleare profession off the trewthe . Therefore yowre glorious / and great speaches alwaies off the Bishoppes / are affectioned / and aspire somewhether . For yf they preceded off the feare off God : yt can not be / but that feare of God / and spirite of humilitie / whiche taughte yowe to speake so of them : woulde haue spoken muche more reuerently off the churche / whose seruantes they owghte to be . And when yow saie / or that in suche matters be farr inferior to him : yff yow meane ten thowsand off those whiche be off the churche : the voice is straunge / and needed some reasons to acquainte vs with yt : especially seinge it touchethe ( as yowe thinke ) the cause . But yowe wander still / and the prouer be yowe confute not . For let yt be / that the bishope seeth more then 10000. off the churche ( whiche proportion beinge more vnequall / then that betwene the sonne / and the mone / carieth withe yt a sente off the popishe insolencie ) admitte I saie that the bishopes eie be so good : yet if the churche haue anie eie at all / that beinge ioined with his / will see better then his alone . And that is the meaninge of the prouerbe / not to compare one good eie with manie bad : but to shewe / that that whiche alone i● hable to doe somewhat / withe company / and helpe is hable to doe it better . And therfore oneles yowe will haue yowre bishoppe so full off sighte / that he can leaue no thinge vnseene : and to haue receiued the spirite withowt measure / which is onely proper vnto our sauiour Christe : yowe haue yet browghte nothinge / to shewe why he owghte not to haue the assistaunce off others / in the examination off the minister . S. Paule refusethe not to learne of the Rom. 1. 12 churche off God / in those thinges wherin he wente as farr beionde the bishope , as any bishope can goe beionde the simplest of his diocese . Apollos was instructed / and tawghte of a powre handycraftes Act. 18. 26. Socrat. 1. 8 Sozom 1. 18. man / and his wiffe . In the counsell of Nice / a simple man / and one that knewe nothinge but Iesus Christe / bothe ouerturned / and turned a Philosopher / whome all the 318. Bishopes / coulde not moue . bothe S. Paule / and Apollos / and the 318. Bishopes / were off Singuler knowledge in those thinges / wherin they were aided / and desired to be aided / off those which were a great deale inferior vnto them . What honie haue our bishoppes eaten off / that they can see so clearly / into the fitnes off a minister : that the churche off God / can not bothe see that whiche they see / and that also whiche they haue ouerseene ? Belike yt is / because our bishopes are more sharper of Sighte / then euer any were : and our churches more ignorante then any haue bene before . And if the churches were tawghte of them ( wherein they are for the moste parte / smalliest beholdinge vnto them ) : as the plentifull knowledge of the churche / shoulde haue bene a seale of their aboundance : so what soeuer is saide off the ignorance / argueth nowe the wante of their knowledge / and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation . Which yff it were well considered of him : yt semeth / that for the ialousie he hathe ouer the estate of a Lorde Bishope , he woulde haue spoken more reuerently off the churche .

Wheras yowe say that offices off greatest charge are onely in the Princes choise : Still yowe confute your shadowe : for I speake off those elections wherin diuers haue interest / sainge that yt seldome commeth to passe , that vppon one mans reporte off his habilitie which is to be chosen : all the reste which haue interest in that election , will giue theyr voices . What worde is here / which giueth occasion to speake off the princes elections / which are made by her selfe alone ? yowe haue therfore picked a quarel / to speake off the welbestowing of offices / onles yt shoulde be some profit vnto yowr selfe / which yow imagined might come by sprinckling off thes faire wordes : I see no ende of yt . sure I am / yt is no answere vnto that / which yt pretendeth . For my parte / I will not contrary that yow speake / of the good bestowing off the offices by the prince : And I am well assured / that some of them be bestowed / of moste worthye men . But yt is good for princes / to haue as it were eares off horne / againste suche sweete songes as these be : and notwithstanding them / to stire vpp them selues to greater warenes in the bestowing off their offices .

Therefore to let passe the offices off charge in the common wealth : for the Ecclesiasticall charges / which her maiestie bestoweth / althowghe they be off the greateste porte : yet they will appeare / not off the greatest charge . vnlesse yow meane charge actiuely / that is to saye great charge / and vnprofitable burden vnto the churche / not bearinge the churche / but borne of yt / euen almoste to the breakinge off her backe . And those also ( as I thinke ) are not chosen off the prince alone , but named onlie / and chosen off the canons off that sea / wheroff he is to be appointed bishoppe / and confirmed off the Archbishoppe . But lett yt be here obserued / that Maister D. seemeth by affirmation off this thing ( although falsely ) without saying any thing against yt / to gïue the election off the bishop onely vnto the Prince : whiche if he maie doe in the bishopes / whiche he taketh head ministers : muche more maie he doe it / in the other ecclesiasticall orders / which he accounteth vnder the bishope . here first I woulde knowe / wether he will stande to this / or no : or whether hauing nothinge to answere / he vsed this for a shifte . Then whether the Bishopes will take in good parte / this translation of the churche righte into the handes of the ciuil magistrate : and whether for there temporalties / as it wer for a messe of rise potage / they will suffer the churches inheritaunce to be thus riotowsly alienated : to be offered where yt is not asked / to be geuen where it is not receiued . And iff they be contente to parte from this iff need be / that they maie kepe thother : or be contente that maister D. forrewarde off his proctorshipp / shoulde haue the disposing off it at his pleasure : then I shall haue something more to saie in this behalfe .

The election off ministers / committed to the bishoppes alone / is made off custome / that is twise a yeare at the least / iff any come : at the intreaty off some in authoritie of tentimes : and not vpon any neede off the churche . For when almoste / is the request of suche as be in authoritie / refused in that election ? In deede there is no extreme sute / the doore is not so harde locked : ther neadeth but the liftinge vp off the latche . And yt is also I graunte withowt contention , For howe can the bishope contende with him self ? Vnles he and his conscience sometimes fall owte / which contention is to be wisshed / that it were greater . And set me all the borowghes / and cities together in the whole realme / where elections passe by voice : yowe shall finde / they can not all afforde / so many vnworthy officers : as haue swarmed ministers / from the sole election of the moste parte off the bishopes in Englande . Yf yowr affirmacions be so clear / that yowe dare com̄itte them so barely withowte profe / to the iudgement of men : I dare with better reason / let these goe : which are donne before the sonne / in the conscience off all men : which the brwte beastes them selues woulde witnes / iff they coulde speake .

Yf he be condemned off the Apostell / which iudgeth off one 1. Cor. ● . 5 mans action before the time / that is before he seeth what it i● ▪ what great presumption ys it / thus to iudge the churche off God ? And therfore that I be no partaker off yowr sinne / and plage / which ( withowt repentance ensueth ) : I answer that I thinke they will chuse the meteste : that they will followe the lorde / before the lorde of the towne , yf the lorde off the towne drawe not with the Lorde : that they will not doe one off their neighbours pleasure , to the dishonour off the lorde / and the hurte off all them selues / and the whole congregation : that the peace off God / not contention will be in the churche off God : that they being the church off God / and the mysticall bodie off our fauiour Christe / shall haue an hable / and fit pastor / if they haue one lyke vnto them selues : and so shal be like people , like pastor . And iff a whole churche assembled together in the feare off God / with inuocation off his name / be ouercaried by affection off loue / or feare / to chose him that ys vnmeet / the bishope maie muche more / beinge but one man / subiecte to the same passions they be : onles yow can happely shewe some prerogatiue / to exempte him from the common infection . So for any thinge yet alleadged / the lighte off reason / rather fauoureth the election off the minister by many / then by one . Nowe let vs see whether the holie scriptures / wheruppon wee laie the weighte off this election / receiue any better answer .

To youre answere to the ● . and sixte off the Actes / yow haue my replye before . And where yow add further to the firste off the Actes / that Maister Beza saithe / that they were not presented by the multitude , but by the Apostels onely : I know not wherfore yow shoulde bringe that in . For I say not that the multitude had the presentation : yt appeareth manifestly / that no one had the handlinge of that action / which striketh the bishopes sole election to the harte : yt appeareth also / that the iudgement / and consente of the churche was required / which is that wee desire . Maister Beza writeth thus / Augustine with whome this whole chapiter is reade very Vpon the 1. Act. corruptly , interpreteth this worde they set vpp , he set vp , not withowt a daungerous error , for here was nothinge done off Peter , by him selfe as one endewed with greater dignitie : but euerie thinge is done publikely , and by voices off the whole churche . Vppon the worde 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , he saithe thus / The Ma. Beza vpon the 14. of the actes . strenght off this worde , which is to ordeine by voices , is to be noted : that we maye knowe that Paule , and Barnaba● did nothing by their owne priuate pleasure , nor exerciced no tyranny in the churche , as the Romishe Harlot dothe nowe , and his assistants which they call ordinaries . And in other place vppon the Vpon the 5. of S. Pa. to Timo. ver. 22. wordes / lay not thy handee suddenly vpon any , &c. That is ( saithe he ) admitte not all withowt choise to any Ecclesiasticall function , as muche as in the liethe . For all the authoritie was not in Timothie : but after the election made by voices off the whole churche ( as we haue saide of the election in the 14. of the Actes , and as appeareth by the election off Matthias , and the Deacons ) he that gouerned the companie in the name of the whole Eldershipe , did by the putting on off his handes , consecrate Vpon the first vnto Titus . hym that was chosen . And in an other place were the apostle willeth Titus / that he shoulde appointe elders towne by towne : he referreth the reader to his exposition off the place off the 5. to Timothy / and the 14. off the Actes . And in the same chapiter ( owte off the whiche maister D. hathe borowed this place ) he sheweth / that albeit all those thinges are not allwaies to be followed / whiche were done in the apostolicall elections : notwithstanding that they had one vnchangeable ende . and asking what that was he answereth amongest other this / that nether pastors , nor Deacons shoulde be thruste vppon the flocke againste the will theroff . And after in the same chapiter he saithe plainely : that it is tyranny , that the gouuernours off the churche , shoulde be geuen vnto the churche , withowte the consent theroff : also that it belongethe to the Presbytery / to choose the offices off the churche / when they be voide . There are a nomber off moe places to be founde in him / to this pourpose / that I may leaue owt heare it . epistle in his boke of epist. ( because I suppose yt is in euery mans handes ) which is moste cleare for the deciding of this controuersie .

To come therfore to the examination off this dealinge : fyrste in that he saith / that it had bene a dangerous error , if S. Peter had done any thinge off his owne authoritie , withowt the assistance of other the Apostels : in that he saithe / that Timothie had not , not onely not the election off the ministers , but not the ordination in his powre , but that whiche he did / he did in the name off the reste off the eldershipe : and in that he saithe / yt belongethe chefly to the office of the elders , to chuse the offices of the churche , as ofte as they be voide : and addethe / that he neuer founde in any Christian churche established , that kinde off election whiche is in the powre one : yt is cleare / that he vtterly condemnethe 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Imperium . as altogether vnwonted / as vsurped / as tiran̄icall / that election whiche is made by the bishope alone : and that this is one of the substantiall poinctes / off a lawfull Ecclesiasticall election / that it be donne by the Eldership . Secondly / in that he saithe / yt was the vnchangable pourpose off the Apostels , to prouide that the gouernours off the churche , shoulde not be thruste vppon the churche , againste her will : that Paule , and Barnabas , to then-tente they woulde bringe in no tyrannie into the churche , permitted the election off the elders vnto the voices theroff : that they bringe tyranny vnto the churche , whiche withowte the consent of the multitude , at their one pleasure , call any vnto a publike function in the churche : yt is moste manifeste / that maister Beza holdethe this / for an other substantiall poincte off a lawfull Ecclesiasticall election in a church established / that yt be made with the peoples consente . So that yt appearethe / that the election made by the Bishope alone / receiueth off Maister Beza twoo deadly woundes / as yt were in the harte / and in the heade : one / for that it is not as well done by the authorite off the Eldershipe / as by the bishoppe / or pastor : an other / bicause yt is not done by the consente off the churche . Nowe what doe wee require / in the election off Ecclesiasticall officers / which Maister Beza dothe not ? wee require / that yt be not permitted to one , he detestethe it as tyrannie : we saie / that yt oughte to be done by the elder shipe , and by consente , at the leste off the people , he saithe / the same .

What are the thinges then / vsed in the Apostels elections / that M. Beza saithe may be altered : and wheroff there is no certeine rule prescribed / whiche the churche is allwaies bounde to followe ? forsouthe thes thinges / as may be easely gathered : that 6. Act. where sometimes the people vppon particular occasions / did first chuse / and the approbation off the gouernours did followe / other some times / and for the moste parte / the gouernours wente before / and directed the iudgementes off the people : that in this circunstance / Act. 1. Act. 14. the churche shoulde be at her libertie / to order / and vse whiche off theis waies she shoulde thinke moste f●tte / hauinge regarde to the times / and other circumstances / whiche mighte moue to take ether the one / or the other . Againe where the Grecians vsed in their elections / the cerimonie off holdinge vpp the hande / to testifie their liking off him that was chosen : other ( as the Romains ) goinge from one syde vnto an other ( Whereoff cam / pedibus ire in sententiam ) : others by silence / did approue that whiche was propounded : that in thes / and suche lyke the churche mighte vse that ceremonie / whiche is bothe receiued in that place / and leste subiecte to slaunderous speache . And that whiche the Answ. hathe browghte here / dothe especially belonge vnto this : and is geuen off M. Beza where he shewethe / that the manner off the Asians was / to testifie there consente by liftinge vp of handes .

But off what thinges so euer in the election / that rule is giuen : Yt can by no means take awaye the election from the Eldershipe off euery churche / nor the peoples consente / to put all in the Bishopes hande : Seinge that ( as hathe bene shewed ) he makethe these twoe substantiall poinctes / off a lawfull ecclesiasticall election . And if the Answ. will accorde vs those : wee shall soone agree for the reste . Vppon all this matter I leaue to the reader to esteme / howe ether vncircunspectly / or vnfaithfully / M. S. hath not borowed / but taken awaye whether Maister Beza wil / or no / his sentences to ouerthrowe that / whiche he so often times / and in so vehement wordes / so plainly dothe establishe .

Nowe for your questions yowe praie me to answere / althowghe they come so often / that yow maye aptelier be called the Questioner , then the Answerer , and that I neede not by any order off disputation / be driuen to speake to suche flying demaundes : yet I am contente / to let yow vse this aduantage off venting them after this sorte / which yow can not put in any forme off argument / and whiche beinge a litle streighte girte / shrinke a waie / or euer they come to be examined . But I muste praie yow also that where yowr questions be no weightier / yow will be contente that I answer them as shortly / as yow propownde them : Albeit I haue in effecte / answered them already in this section . I saie therfore / Answ . to his first question . 1. Act. 13. Act. 14. Act. Act. 6. 3. & 5. that where the Apostles in the firste off the Actes / good before the reste off the churche / and directe them : that is the moste conuenient waie / for ordenary elections : as that whiche was bothe moste vsed in the Apostolicall elections / and whiche is borne vp by apparante reason : whiche is / that they shoulde shewe the waie to others / which are likeste to knowe it best . And wheras the people present firste / and then the Apostels approue after : for as muche as that roose of a particular occasion / whiche was / for that the Apostels dealing was somewhat suspected / as not altogether indifferent / but to muche bending to the poore off theire one nation : yf the lyke case shoulde fall / the like remedy may be vsed . beside that / that election off the Deacons might be more safely committed vnto the people / then that off the pastors : the people being more able / to iudge off their abilitie in disposing off the mony / then off the knowledge required for the preaching off the word . To his second . The casting off the lottes / for so muche as yt was to this ende / that the election off an Apostle shoulde be immediatly from God / and not by any mans voice : that consideration ceassing / the lot also in ecclesiasticall elections ( howesoeuer yt semeth otherwise to some ) owghte to die . In the sixt off the Actes the imposition of handes / being vsed in all elections by the churche / and hauig a profitable To the third . aduertisement / that he whiche is ordeined / is sett a parte from the rest / for the seruice off the churche / and that from thence forthe / he muste not serue him selffe / and his / but the churche : and conteining also an assurance off the lordes hande / and helpe alwaies readie in assisting of him : muste needes be holden still for ordenary / to be vsed in all elections . The praier be fore the lot in the 1. of the Actes / being expressedly vsed in all elections : And being To the fourth . nowe by so muche more necessary then it was then / as the habilitie is lesse nowe in the chusers / then yt was then : muste needes be thoughte a paterne / to frame owre elections by .

And where yow saie / ther was no suche thinge as praier in the 〈◊〉 off the Actes : yt is a token yow haue litle truthe in yow / whiche will denie that whiche is expressed manifestly in the texte . for although S. Luke doeth not declare / what were the wordes they vsed : v. 6. To his fifte . yet there being praier made for them there was suche a thinge . That in the 1. Act. twoo were presented for one office / that was / that waie mighte be made to the deuine election by lotte : that one onely was taken / was becawse there was but one place voide . That in the sixte of the acres 7. were presented / was / becawse the church was thowght to haue neede off so manie / for the prouysion off their poore : that all were ordeined / was for that the Apostels liked well off them all . Be there yet any more behinde ? I loked when yow shoulde saye / that in the firste off the actes there was a bowte sixe score / in the sixte almoste six thowsande : there but eleuen Apostles / here twelue : there speaking withe one tonge / here with many . For the matters in controuersy / that is to saie / whether the peoples consente is to be had / &c. Thes differences woulde haue serued yow / as well as those : and possiblie yf they had taken yow in the heade / yowe woulde neuer haue let them goe / withowt giuing some tribute to the lengthening off your boke . But in all this diuersitie yow recken vp / there is a perpetual harmonie againste the election made by one bishope : againste the ambition off the elder which thrusteth owte his fellowe elders : against the church robbers / especially which bende ther force / to spoile the people of ther consente / in election off their ministers . Yf yowe had shewed any diuersitie in this : yow mighte haue helped your cause somewhat .

To those which are bleare eide / one light semeth two : and ther Cap. 1. Diuis. 5. pag. 136. fore to M. D. which hathe the eie sight off his minde scattered / they seme to differ which agree well together . I well remembred what I wrote , and yt hathe not the weighte off a feether / to ouertourne the election off the minister by the people . For yt followethe not because one deacon is inferior to the pastor : therfore the whole churche is inferior / to ether the pastor / or the deacon : or the deacon may not chuse the pastor / therfore the whole churche may not chuse him . But this had bene wel concluded : one deacon is inferior to the pastor / therfore muche more one of the people : and one decon can not chuse a pastor / therfore muche lesse one off the people . Which mighte haue bene casely considered / by proportion off the bodye / which S. Paule dothe so often poincte owte the estate 1. Cor. 12. Rom. 12. off the churche by . For sett a parte the heade / which is our sauiour Christe : and ther is no one parte so noble / or so necessarie / but being compared together with all the partes off the bodie that are vnder yt : it giueth place / and is inferior vnto them .

And it may be shewed by example / that they that in a societie be equall / yea superior vnto any one in that societie / are notwithstanding inferior to the whole . Peter / and Iohn were equall / vnto any two / in the whole colledge off the Apostels : and yet they were inferiour to the whole companie off the Apostels . For beinge sente Act. 8. off them / they muste be inferiour to those that sente them : and being Ambassadors from them / they receiued commaundement . A & . 13. Paul / and Barnabas were by their dignitie off Apostleship / superior to any whiche were in the churche off Antioche : and inferior to the whole churche / for the cause before alledged . Furthermore / wee doe not permit the choise off the pastor to the people onely / but to the choise off the eldership : so that althoughe the people alone / shoulde not be superior vnto the pastor / yet all together are / which haue to doe in that election .

And althoughe thes thinges are so plaine / that they coulde not lightly be hydden from him / that hathe but moued his lypp to the cuppe of sounde diuinitie : yet maister D. standeth still amased / merueiling as he that hauing stepte manie years / when he awaked / thowghte al thinges straunge . Thes are the knowen lawes of the howse where yow were borne / where also yow vndertake profession of Do. yt is a great fault that yow are a straunger at home . The peoples examination off their ministers especially / standeth in their behauiour : And seinge in the churche off God / from him that cleaueth wood / to her which grindethe in the mill / ther is none so ignorant / but knowe / and can giue reason off principall poinctes off the Christian religion : the Elders ( which be the flowre off the church ) can much lesse be so ignorant as yowe make them . Naashe 1. Sam. 11. the Amonyte / meaning to dishonour the people off God / thowghte yt reproche enoughe to the Gilcades / yf he mighte haue put owte their right eies / and ( althowghe a barbarous / and cruell enemie off the people off God ) yet woulde haue satisfied him selfe with that ; but yow are not contente with that / onles yow put owte bothe their eies / and leaue them as blinde / and ignorant bussardes . Thes reproches off ignorance / so oftentimes caste vpon the people off God / are not spoken with the tounge off Canaan / but is the proper dialecte off the Papistes / and yt is reprochefull not vnto men / but vnto the sonne off God / whose bodie the churche is / and whereoff he is the heade .

The prophet speaking off churches which should be gathered Esa. 11. 10 vnder the gospell / saithe / that the earthe shall be full of the knowledge off God / as the waters which couer the sea : the accomplishment wheroff maie appeare in all places / where there is any teaching minister / which dothe the office of a faithfull pastor . I coulde a great deale easelier / beare the reproches which you vtter againste me : but when I heare yow thus raile vppon the lordes hoste / so indefinitely speakinge of the churches of God / yow are vntollerable . yet if I shoulde speake againste this / as oft as yow giue occasion : I shoulde neuer haue doone . And if nether yow will ceasse this language / nor those that shoulde looke vnto yt / will stope this incircumcised mouthe : I will commit the cause vnto the lorde / and waite for his iudgement .

Off the meanes of an exacte examination off the habilitie off the pastor / with owte the helpe off the lorde bishoppe / is spoken in an other place : where shall be examined / what the D. hath to saie . It hathe appeared howe vntrwe yt is that the Deacon is superior / or hathe moe giftes than the reste of the bodie of the churche . And besides that yt shall appeare in place / a moste absurde sayinge / that the deacon is aboue that elder which I meane ( for I meane the same / which S. Paule meaneth ) ther was no occasion at all here to speake / off the superioritie off a deacon vnto a senior . For ether he owghte to proue a deacon / aboue a pastor : or els he hathe saide nothinge / to that whiche is in question .

In the 308 page the Bishoppe is auowed to be a Pastor , here he is Superior to a Pastor , and therfore no Pastor : for there can be no comparison / but betwene twoo thinges at the leste : and yt is very strange / that a man shoulde be higher then him selffe . So that to defend these bishops / and Archebishops / the Ans. hath neede haue a newe grammer / and a newe logicke : for they transcende / and goe beionde all the rules / that euer yet were hearde of . I knowe what is vsed with vs , but is that a sufficient answer ? is this yowr defense off the booke ? I proue him to be deacon / and yow can not denie it : therupon I conclude / that he is inferior to the pastor , and yow saie / I knowe an archdeacon withe vs , maie be minister off the worde . But the Question is not what he is / but what he maie be by the worde off God : for yow owghte to haue shewed / that a man may haue the order off pastor and deacon at once . For yf he be but a deacon / and no pastor : then beinge inferior to the Pastor / he owghte not by him selfe alone / iudge of the sufficiencie off a Pastor . yf he be bothe a Deacon / and a pastor / at once : then in steade off ministers / yow bringe monsters into the churche / and make off the hande and the eie / whiche are twoo members / but one . Vnles yow will saie / that he that is promoted from one Ecclesiasticall degree vnto another : kepethe the same still which he had before he was promoted . by which reason / the bishope / and the Archbishope are deacons also : because they sometimes had that degree . And then yt is required off them / that they doe the offices off all those functions / the names Wheroff they beare : for there are no idle / and voide names in the churche / whiche can be seuered from doinge the dewties / that those titles require . And it is as if a man passinge from one office / or dignitie in the common wealth / vnto an other / vntill he come to the highest : beinge in that office / or dignitie / shoulde be saide still to haue all the vnder offices / and dignities by the which he hathe passed . And not that onely / but when a man from priuate estate / is called ether to office in churche / or common welth : together with the publike parson / whiche he hath gotten / he kepeth his priuate estate still .

Yt hathe bene sometimes ( I graunte ) that either throwghe ignorance off the institution of God / or throwghe ambition of some / which desire to haue all in their owne handes / or vpon some extreme necessitie / the pastor hathe donne that whiche belongeth to the office off a deacon / and contrariwise . But althowghe I should graunte / that one might be ordeined to be bothe Pastor / and Deacon ( whiche is as monstruous in Theologie / as yt is in nature / that one / and the same shoulde be halfe a man / and halfe a woman ) yet yow helpe not your selfe that way . For in sayinge that he may be a minister of the worde , yow confesse that he may be also none / but a deacon onely : whereoff also there are examples i● in our churche . Last off all / those Archedeacons which haue the degree off a pastor in our churche / do not examine by that they are Pastors / but onely in respecte that they be Archedeacons . And so whether he be pastor / or deacon together / or deacon onely : the disorder remaineth still / that the inferior / and he whose callinge is contented with smaller giftes / is made iudge off his sufficiency whiche is superior / and whose callinge requirethe greater giftes . Whether the Archedeacon haue the examination committed vntho him onely : I referre me vnto the booke off ordering ministers / and to that whiche I haue before alledged . Here I would haue the reader mark / that this disorder / of ordeininge ministers / at the testimonie off an Archedeacon / came from Rome : as Ierome Ierome ad Euag. Ca. 1. Diuis. 6. pa. 137. bothe notethe / and confuteth .

This reason is altogither different from the seconde . For althowghe he were by neuer so many / and neuer so well examined : yet were it vnlawfull for the Bishop / to admit him / as this third reason dothe suppose / that is to saie / vppon the credit of the Archedeacon , withowt his owne knowledge . whiche I doo not gather off the wordes off the Archedeacons presentation ( as yow would make me ) but off the answere of the bishop / Take heede that the persons whom yow present vnto vs , be apte , and meete for their godly conuersation , to exercise their ministeri dewly , to the honor off God , and edifyinge off the churche . which wordes whether they haue that sense / whiche I alledge : I leaue to all men to iudge off . the forme off the vniuersities presentation , helpethe yow not : because there is no suche answere made by them againe vnto the presenter / vpon whiche I grounde my argument . and yt maketh muche against yow . For I dowte not / but that forme of presentation / by some one of that facultie / wheroff the presented person is / was therfore browght in : because neither all the vniuersitie / to whom he is presented / nor the vicechauncelor / off whom he is to be admitted / can allwaies take knowledge off his sufficiency / for the degree he asketh . As the vicechancelor beinge a lawier / neither he / nor diuerse other off the vniuersity / off them selues are able to iudge / whether he be meete to practise in phisike : but are driuen to stay vpon the faithe off the presenter , so that yow likening herein the Archedeacons presentation to the vniuersities : doo therby confirme / that bishops admittance is oftentimes suspended / off the trust of the Archedeacon . I would yow had that reuerence of the holie scriptures / that yow pretend often : we should then passe this controuersic easely . But for the place wheroff it is 1. Tim. 3. said I make a shipmans hoose : yt shall be seene / how trwly yow haue spoken . For the declaration wheroff / I take the 10. verse off that chap. For when S. Paul saith / let them first be tried , and then minister : yt is as muche as he should saye / that he should not applie them to the ministery / before they were tried . Whereupon I conclude / that if that place commaunde Timothe / that he shoulde not applie any to the ministerie / before triall : the same implieth / that he should trie them . for so muche as any other mans triall withowt his owne / is no triall wherupon he might proceede / to the applyinge of them to the ministery : especially considering that otherwise / he should offend against that which he forbiddeth in another 1. Tim. 5. 22. place / off sodeine laying on of handes . And if it be said / that it is to be vnderstanded of the deacons : the answere is that iff he commaunde that off the deacons election / muche more he requirethe it in the Bishops . And wheras he saithe / I am still contrary to my selfe : I aske him wherin ? In that forsoothe I therby conclude / that the bishop should be the examiner . where did I euer denie it ? But if he thinke any thinge grow vnto the lord bishops / or that therfore the bishopp alone may examine and ordeine / because I graunt that he hathe interest in booth he hathe ouercast / the summe is not so great . To shew that the same owght to be the examiners / that are the chusers / it is sufficient to haue shewed it in one : the law beinge the same in all / which is in one . That it can not be restreined vnto Timothy alone / which S. Paul commaundeth him to doo : and that he was no bishop / but an Euangelist : shal be handled hereafter . Yow that charge me with contrarietie / wher there is no coulor : must be here this second time admonished off off this faulte / in this short section . for in affirminge not once / nor twise / that those thinges which touche the election is that epistle , are spoken vnto Timothe alone : yow affirme that plainly / whiche yow denie vnto me / that is / that S. Paul maketh the same the ordeiners / and examiners .

Salamon saith / that all the wordes of the mouthe off god are plaine to him that will vnderstand , and streite to them Diuis. 7. pa. 138. 8. prou. 8. that would finde knowledge : Wherfore I meruaile not / if the answer ( because be would so faine haue a broad way / wher he may driue a sumpter horse / and is nor content with the lordes path waie ) finde many difficulties / and stoppes . But alas what paines he taketh in liftinge at a fether . And of the three difficulties that are here moued / two of them ( whiche are towchinge triall of him by sermon , or otherwise , and the feare least he shoulde be an hipocrite ) fall as well into the bishopps choise / and examination as the peoples .

Therfore the answere is / that that meanes which the Bishop may vse / before he is Minister for his triall : that also may the church . And as the hipocrisie / which vttereth not it selffe / before 1. Tim. 5. 24. iudgement giuen off takinge him to the ministery / steineth not the circumspection off the Bishop : no more can it blemis he the triall / off the church .

Ther remaineth onely / whether to take knowledge off him / he shoulde come dwell with the parishe , and how longe , and at whose charges , and whether before the death off the former pastor , or after . Yf I should saie / that the iourney he taketh to the bishopp / he should bestowe in goinge to the parishe / and be amongest them / what woulde follow ? then he must be there a great while / or euer they can haue triall off him / and therby grow charges . As who should saie / the whole church can not take as good notice off him / as the bishop being but one : or as thowghe the bishop can take better knowledge off his conuersation in one houre / then the whole church can doo in one weeke . Yf therfore the churche / for triall off his conuersation / haue neede to keepe him at hir charges a quarter off a yere : the bishop hath nede / to kepe euerie one that he will admit / in his howse a whole yeare . Which if he should doo / I dowte not but we should haue an easie disputation . And if the Bishop maie proceade to election / vppon the testimonie off others : why maie not the churche doo thè same ? That which was in ould time touchinge colledges off learninge in euery citie : might be now muche more iff the Bishopes palaces / and the Canons cloisters / which serue now to nourishe a sorte off idle seruinge / and singing men / were turned into colledges / and nourceries off painefull studentes .

Wher yowe say / but admit all these impossibilities : No admitte nothinge : hould all that yow haue / for all is to litle . Whatsoeuer perteineth to this cause / we are ( God be praised ) able to gett it at the swordes pointe / I meane off the word off God . yow take me vpp ( for if and and ) In all my whole booke where haue I so manie / as yow haue in diuerse pages ? But what are thes dowtfull dowtes ? In your first if ( which is if the parishe be wholy or the most parte ignorant ) for parishe / yow should haue put church / that is to saie / the number off those which doo professe the gospell off Christ . For as in the time off persequution / when there is no Christian magistrates / the churche seuereth those / whiche being off the paris he / are none off the church : so when there is a Christian magistrate / he owght to prouide / that those which are not off the churche / thrust not in them selues into suche affaires / as ( because they are none off the church ) they haue nothing to do with . Other wise in that pointe / the church should be in worse case vnder a Christian magistrate / then without him : Which were absurde . So your first question is answered / that the church off God is not ignorant / nor vnable to iudge off the soundnes off Docrine .

To the second yf which is of corruption off religion : I say / that if / the corruption be suche / as destreiethe the foundations / as in the Arrians ( whiche ouerthrow the person off Christ ) as in the Papistes ( which ouerthrow the office off Christ ) : they being no church / owght to haue no priuiledge off the church . If the corruption touche not the harte / and bowels off Religion / but as a scabb / feadeth off the owtward partes / to the deforming onely off the bodie theroff / as the churches off the Iewes in times past / which thowght the ceremoniall law off meates / and drinkes / and daies not taken away : and as some off the churches bothe Iewes / and Gentiles / which thowght it lawfull to haue many wiues at once : thes and suche life / because they take not awaie the title off the church / they can not barr them from their interest they haue in choise off there minister● / and if they chuse suche a one / as is no● fitt : the magistrate is to hinder suche elections / and to driue them to an other . wherunto what yowe answere / shal be considered when I come to that place .

And wher yow aske what if they agree not amongest them selues ? Euen the same that is donne in other elections : that the election be estemed off the moste voices . And I beseche yow / what is here that may not be said off all other elections off offices in the common wealth / which passe by the voices off many ? So that in going abowt / to driue the church from this election : yow inferre a necessarie change / off the whole state off the common wealth . And excepte the last off these questions / which is touching contention amongest the people ( which is a great deale more tolerable / then when one bishop withowt resistance / sendeth foorth suche vermin amongest the people as we haue to great experience off ) ther is neuer a one / but may fall into the election made by a bishop . For what if he be vnlerned / as diuers Bishopes be in Ireland ? What if they be corrupte in religion / as some in England ? What if a gift blinde their eies / that they can be content to winke / at the manifest faultes off him which is to be admitted ? What if they be ouerruled off some noble man / of whom they stand in feare / or from whom they looke for some pleasure ? Yow will saie / all thes be besyde the booke : so are all these which yow recken vpp / beside all lawes of elections that euer were made / either ciuill / or ecclesiasticall . And it is a verie vnequall / and ( as of one that feareth the insufficiencie of his cause ) altogither a cowardly matche / thus to compare the least disordered ( for orderlie I can neuer call them ) elections / which the bishop maketh : with the least orderly / and moste troublesome elections off the people .

And if a man should iudge / off the most fittest maner of chusinge off ministers / by the euent : I am well assured / that all the Ecclesiasticall stories extant / are not able to furnishe vs / of so many vnworthie ministers / chosen by all the churches throwgheowt the world / which haue bene since the Apostles times : as haue swarmed thes fewe yeares / out of the palaces / as owt of the Troiane horse : off that smale nombre off Bishops / which are in England . Of the other side / if a man will cast his eies into Fraunce / bothe in persecution / and in peace / and from thence looke into the churches of some partes of Sauoie / and yet stretche them ow● farther / to certeine commen wealthes in Germany / and come home to our neiggbours the Scottes : and compare generally the ministers chosen off the churches / withe the most parte off those which the bishops make : ( if he loue not him selfe to muche / and be not a stubborne defender off that he hathe vndertaken ) he shal be compelled to confesse / as muche difference betwene the one / and the other : as betwene gould / and coper / or any other refuse metall . And yet their is nothing / which the Ans. doth suppose may come to passe here / which may not happen to them all a part / and to the greatest parte off them / altogither . And therfore for any thing yet alleadged / the bishops election is further off then before / and the equitie off the churches consent / in chusinge off Ecclesiasticall officers / more apparant .

For the Westmerlande Minister : I doo / not here appointe any certeine parlicular rule / althoughe I doubte not / there are many wates / which the churches vpon the persente occasion / shal be able to take : but it is answered before in generall / that what way soeuer the bishop may take / for his knowledge : the same may the churche . Yow tell me often / that it is no matter what I thinke off this , or that : and I desire not / that any man should weighe what I saie / further then it hath weight off the word off God . Which rule if it be kepte / in the examination of yours also / as I dowbte not it willt we shall not neede to feare any great praie yow shall carrie away at this meetinge .

I haue shewed in part / and more also will appeare / how the reformed churches agree withe vs . And I am assured / that he can not bringe one example off any other church which professeth the gospell / where the elections off the ministers / depend vpon the pleasure of one .

Where he saithe / none is admitted of the bishop / which hath Diu. 8 p. 1●● . not dwelt a conuenient time in his dioses : The scolers of Cambridge go indifferently for orders ( as they call them ) either to Elie / or Bugden / or Peterborowghe / and sometime to London : and I am sure they can no haue dwelt in all their dioses . Therfore either there is no suche law / or it is cuill kept . And what will yow doe with the Archebishopp : may he not ordeine in his prouince ? so that if yow thinke the diocese so narrowe a place / as all those that dwell in yt may take sufficient triall off him that is to be ordeined : yet yow answere nothing for the largenesse off the prouince . To whom is that singulier person borne owt off time / and in a darke corner of the bishops chappell before the rest / to whom ( I saie ) is his habilitie so sufficiently knowen ? if to the Bishop so owght all the rest : to others off the diocese / how can he ? And wher dothe the booke prescribe any suche rule / that for some suche singuler person / there may be suche a darke election ? so that for any thing that I know / it is still at the bishops pleasure . Sure I am there haue bene in that sort admitted / which for any singularitie that gaue them any commendation to the ministerie / might haue well bene in the taile / with a nomber of the reste .

And the ende off notifyinge the daie off orders ( which yow say is especially / that there may be resorte thither / of suche as haue any thinge to obiect against any / that is at that time to be admitted into the ministerie ) is ( as I think ) but a shifte / to serue this turne . the confutation wherof may be fetched / from the Bishopps bull / which being set vp vpon the church dore / as by the sounde of a trumpet to gather an armie ( wheroff the greatest parte off of them / after the bishops hand is laid vpon their heades / haue power to inuade the church of God at all occasions ) propoundeth this as the cheife ende / that if any be disposed to receiue orders / he should repaire to the bishop at suche time / and place . For it maketh no mention as I remember / of any suche ende / or at the least / that that is the principall ende . And if that be so ( which I will not precisely affirme / but referre it to the reader / which may haue more assured knowledge then I can haue off it ) then the vntrewth off this saying / dothe notably appeere . for if it had bene the principall cause off the settinge vp theroff / it ought so to haue bene propounded : at the leaste / not to haue bene left owt .

But whether it be / or no : it is manifest mockerie of the people off God / and if it should be approued off the Bishops / which is here alledged : I can not see / how they could deliuer them selues / from that sore accusation / off making merchandise off the people off God / by coulorable and deceitfull wordes . For to omitt that the bishop / was w●nt to goo to euerie church which had a pastor or bishopp / to be ordeined ( as I am able to proue ) and not all the churches to come vnto him : and to let the inconvenience passe / how the churches throwghowt the whole diocese can be lodged / especially oftentimes in a litle village / wher the Bishopp giueth his orders : and to let passe that the bill which is set vp vpon the churche doore / is in the latin tonge / wherby they can make no preparation / not vnderstanding the sounde off the trompet : I saie / to let all thes passe : what should the churches doo there / to haue triall off the sufficiencie off the ministers / which haue alreadie an incumbent ? for the Bishops do as well giue orders / when the places are full : as when they are not . And what should those which want doo there ? when they know not / whether they shall haue one of that creation / or of some before : one made in that diocese / or in an other .

And if so be they were ( which they can not be ) sure that they should haue one off them / there being peraduenture fower / or fiue which want : either they must enquire into the sufficiencie off 40. 50. yea a hundreth sometimes ( which is impossible ) : or els they may be deceyued . For the Patrone / and the bishop are not tied nether will be / vnto these which they haue made enquirie off : but will chuse which they list of all that nombre / which hath passed throwghe the bishops handes . And if ther were no moo made / then they wanted : yet when they haue not bene conuersant in that parte off the diocese / wher the voide / and widowe churches be : how can they stand vp against those / which they neuersawe / nor heard of before ? Therfore if there had bene any trewth ment by this pretence : the Bishop should first haue haue knowen / what they be which would enter the Ministerie / and so giue the churches which want / warning to enquire by suche a day / of suche / and suche as be suters / and woers vnto them . So that by these / and many other considerations / whiche I leaue to euerie on s estimation with him selfe : it appeareth / what reuerence he hathe of the church / which dare offer suche a broken vizard / to hide from their knowledge / the disorder off the bishops election .

Where yowe say / that he muste off necessitie be admitted into the ministerie , before they can gyue any iudgement of his abilitie in teaching &c. In deede I heare yow speake sentences / and looked for some argumentes for the confirmation off that / which condemneth the order off diuers churches / which for better triall off their ministers / giue them some pece off scripture to interprete . They haue bene moued with some reason : and will yow cast yt awaie with a worde . But the order of trying his gifte off expounding / is good / and for the moste parte necessarie . For althowghe yt may be perceiued by questioning shortly with him / what his vnderstanding is in the misterie off Christ : yet his vtterance / disposition / and memorie ( giftes necessarie for a minister ) can not be tried / but by suche a profe or by long acquaintaunce with him : which can be seldome betwene the ordeiners / and him that is to be ordeined . And iff in well ordered cities / ther is no man admitted to set vpp in any mysterie / onlesse he haue offered to the Maisters off the companie / some worke for a masterpeece / and declaration that he hathe skil / in that he will open his shop for : how muche more in the ministerie off God / owght it to be prouided / that before he be allowed to worke / in the great misterie off our saluation / and laye hand to the framyng of the siluer vessels of the church off God : the maisters off the companie especially ( whiche are the Elders off the church ) being best able to iudge / owght to haue triall / how he handleth the goulden hammer off the word off God .

But if M. D. which at other times loseth the corde off lawfull vocation / will here to pinche me with all / girde it so streight : I answere / that neither he which is to be admitted / doth it withowt vocation / being therunto called by those whiche haue to doo in the election : nether doo they admit him / withowt warrant of the word of God . For the lord in com̄aunding to take a sufficient triall of his abitilie / and that precisely before he be admitted : doth in that 1. Tim. . 3. 2. 10. commaundement include / all thinges that pertaine therto . For as when any peace off grownd is giuen vnto one / ther is also a waye to come vnto it / graunted withall / althowghe the same be not mentioned : so the lord in giuing to his church / power to trie his ministers / can not by any meanes bethowght / to haue hedged vp the way / which leadeth neerest vnto that triall . And beside the reason heroff owt off the word off God / ioyned with the practise off diuerse churches : We haue plaine examples in the scripture p. 4. ●● . as I haue shewed in my former booke . And how dothe not the A. here condemne manifestly / the exercise of common place vsed in the vniuersities / wherin younge men ( that they might he better prepared for the ministerie ) do interprete in there courses the scriptures / which haue no admittance or ordination vnto the ministerie ? I will let yow passe heere / with this contrarietie with yowr selffe / that yow graunt to euery minister the rule off his flock / whiche deni it so stoutlie in other places / where yow giue it to the Bishops / and Archbishops . If yow had found suche a one in me : yow would haue made suche hue and crie / sufficient to haue raised a whole countrey . But I will not presse your contrarieties / but wher they be pregnant . And so I leaue it to the iudgement off the indifferent reader / how well the answerer hathe mainteined the wantes off the booke / which were by me in this behalffe assigned .

Their wordes are to be seene / my replie / and your answer : let the world iudge what forehead there is in him / which saith / they Diuis 9. pa. 140. condemne all as euill , and as vnlearned : lest I spend moe wordes in prouinge / that it is light at noone daies . There is more likelehoode / that for want of iust triall / they might be thowght to denie a lawfull callinge / to those which are admitted by the common order . But it followeth not theroff / that they saie / there are none lawfullie admitted / for the cause before alledged . And it is vnreasonable / yow 1. sect. 38. pa. should charge them with that which I write / or with that the second admonition writeth . Touching the nombre off sufficient ministers in Fraunce / I wrote that which I receiued : wether it be trew or no / it may easely be knowen of those / which will enquire off it .

Take yow good leaue / to speake all good off the vniuersitie : it shal be my recreation / after your importunate barkinges . yt is my dailie praier it may goo well with her / and althowghe I be from her . yet I caried some of her boweles with me : so that whether there be in her / either iust cause of ioye / or sorowe : I haue them in common with her . I can take no exception vnto yowr 450. vniuersitie preachers / not hauing the register of the vniuersitie . but yow did warely saie / knowen preachers , and not godly preachers : for some of those / haue troubled the vniuersitie / and other places with popishe leauen of pargatorie / free will / and Abrahams besome cut owt by a larger measure / then euer our sauiour Christ taught . But to le● the corruption off some / and the inhabilitie off other some / with the so rare preachinge off certeine ( that as at the appearinge off a comete / or blasinge starr / or some other notable change in the heauens : so at their preaching / there may be feare off some calamitie to come ) to let all those goe / to helpe to make vp this garlond off 450. yow owght not haue forgotten to subducte / those which are taken awaie by death / those which are thrust owt off the ministerie / and musled by the bishops / those which are mued in cloisters / those which beside the necessarie vse off the vniuersitie / remaine / there / and those which hauing charges in the countrey / lurke there . These being subducted / excepte the accomptes doo rise better then yow shew : I feare me / that I may cut of from the numbre of 2000. hable ministers in the whole church of England / which I assigned before : as many as yow take from that nombre / which I reported to be in Fraunce . And alas what are these fiue loues / and 2. fishes to so many thowsand churches . So that if yow had not doone it at vnwares / and had not had an other ende / then is false owt : we should haue had to thanke yow for this leuie of ministers / which the vniuersity hathe bred / as that which strengtheneth the fewnes off hable ministers / which I assigned .

M. D. hand is still on his halfepennie / and as Plautus Euclio / he suspecteth euery man for his treasure : and by putting his hand so often to the sore / when he is not touched : he declareth plainely / what is the greife . The feare of spoile off the churches goodes , is not withowt cause : But there was no cause to suspecte it in the Innes off court , which off their yearly exhibitions / giuen to mainteine there studies / haue erected vp three diuinitie lectures : more for any thing I know / then all the bishops haue doone . Therfore yow euill requite this liberalitie / with such suspitions . Yf the Centurion deserued praise / for building a Synagoge / and is Luk. 7. commended by the holie Gost to all posteritie / for his liberalitie in prouidinge a place for the preachinge off the word : then they for there liberalitie / in prouidinge for the minister him selfe / deserued a better gratulation then this . Yf they had throwen in somewhat into the Corban / and botomlesse bagge / it should haue bene counted to them for great liberalitie : But this aide which the church getteth by encrease off godlie / and hable Ministers / receiueth litle thanck . But the hatred off this cause draue yow headlonge vpon them : as your aduertismentes which followe doo declare . As there are some among them that fauour this cawse : so there are some / that like not off it . And yet seing they haue ioined togither / yea ( which is verie straunge ) made great sute vnto the Bishops / that they might of there owne charges prouide suche / as in seruinge off them might discharge that / which the bishop hath charged him selfe with : your suspition off spoilinge the church , might haue had a fitter lighting place / then vpon the Innes off courte . Thus muche against your disordered suspition / not altogether from my purpose : for it shall serue to shew / wherupon I conceiued so good hope of them / and off other the gentrie off the realme / which haue in diuerse places made the same contribution . Yf any haue forsaken the ministerie withowt iust cause / they are giltie off a horrible fault : but I see yow accounte them forsakers off the Ministerie / which yow haue thrust owt : suche is your equitie to whipp them owt / and for going owt also . And if they hould any off your tenthes / and would be counsailed by me / they should yelde them into your handes : least in beinge partaker off your non residencie / they drink also off plages which belonge therto . Diuis. 10. pag. 142.

Wher yow saie / I haue not answered : in deede if your one man be wise / and godly / and the hundreth fooles / and wicked : I haue said nothinge / nor meane not now to doo / being worthier to be hissed owt / then to be answered . Yow saie / that the 16. Actes ▪ sheweth how well Timothy ●er. 2. was thowght off : a noble interpretation . This is allwaies your fashion / either to corrupte the places of the scripture : or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of . But for what cause dothe S. Luke tell / that he was so well thowght of ? dothe he not shew in the nexte ver. to be the same which I haue alledged ? And therfore Master Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke / addeth the word ( therfore ) declaringe for what cause that testimoniall was giuen . This is your reason / S. Luke sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off : therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off euill speache , receiued him not , but vpon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Listra , and Iconium . I doe not saie that S. Paul would not haue receiued him / vnlesse that euerie singuler person had giuen testimonie vnto him / which was in those places . but I shewed how circunspecte S. Paul was / in takinge any into any part off the ministerie : and how it is not to be thowght / that he would haue vppon the Testimonie off one / proceeded vnto any election / seing that in one which he him selfe was not ignorant what he was / to auoid the euill speache off some / he was carefull to haue the testimonie off the church .

As it can not be proued ▪ that he would not haue receiued him , if all had not consemed therto : so may it easely be shewed / that if the most part had not liked of him / he would not haue taken him . For besides that it was against S. Paules maner / to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God : it had not bene aduisedly done / to haue procured the testimonie off the church / for the admitting off him into his companie / if the churche not consentinge / he would haue taken him , for that would haue bred a great flame off displeasure / betwene the church / and S. Paul : and should haue bene alwaies shot in the mouthe off the aduersaries / against the authoritie of Timothes ministerie / yea off Paules also vnto whom he was ioyined / for that he had receiued one / disaproued of the Christians them selues . All which he might ( by your iudgement ) easely haue auoided / iff either he would haue rested in his owne knowledge off him : or els haue addressed him selfe to some one for his testimonie / and not to haue hazarded the alienation of the church / by com̄ittinge the allowance of Tim. vnto their testimonial .

But mine argument is nothinge worthe , because it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle . Yf this be trew / S. Luke was euil aduised / to in title his booke the act . or deedes of the apostles . For it is as much in the ans. language / as a booke of deedes / which christian men are not bound to followe . and yet it was not withowt cause / that when there are conteined in that booke / bothe the doctrine / and deedes of the Apost. S. Lu. as off the greater parte / intitled his booke / the deedes or actes of the apostles . wherfore dothe he in the beginning of that booke / repeating the summe of his gospell / by that transition / or passage Act. 1. ve. 12. 3. make one bodie of them bothe / and bind them as it were in one volume ? was it not to giue the same authoritie vnto the one / a● to the other : to shew that the church had wanted so muche / of a perfecte direction / as it wanted of that storie ? Wherfore dothe he in the beginninge / shew that our Sau. Christ instructed them / with the commaundementes thowchinge his kingdome ? was it not to teache vs / that whatsoeuer they did in buildinge of the church : they did it not of there owne heades / but by his authoritie ? And if a cōmanndemēt vnto them / be not a commaundement vnto vs : then haue we no word in the Scripture / to warrant baptisme with . For the commaundement of baptisinge / was spoken to the Apostles onely / withowt any further lymytation . Fynally / wherfore dothe S. Luke set owt the Apostles / fylled with the holye Goste ? Was Act. 2. yt onely to gyue credyte vnto there doctryne / that yt should be beliued : and not vnto there Actes / that they should be folowed ? yes assuredlie / vnto there acres / that they should of euerie one / according to his vocation ( where they maye ) be folowed .

For the further confirmation wheroff / yt ys to be consydered what S. Paul wrote vnto Tymothe . Whom he instructynge / 2 Epist. 3. 10. vers . how he should behaue hym selffe / towardes the troublers off the church : dothe not onely call him to the regard off his doctrine / but also his conduite / or maner off doing . Wherby he meant to note / his order / and maner off doyng in the church off God / and publykly : for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose / off that wherfore yt ys alledged . Sanct Paules pryuate doynges / could gyue Tymothy lytle instruction how he should behaue hym selfe / towardes the troublers off the Church . To the Phillippians also he callethe the Bishoppes / Deacons / and whole 4. Phil. 9. church / both to doing off that which they heard / and which they had sene in hym . Yf therfore S. Paul / will haue the churches followe that which he did amongest them : yt ys manifest / that the Actes off the Apostles / are rules for vs to followe . And vnlesse this be admitted : I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can proue / the imposition of handes which I think he will not denie to be necessarie . And this is that / which M. Caluin doth flatly affyrme / that the example off the Apostles 4. li. insti . ● . cap. 16. se●● . in layinge on of handes / vpon hym which ys to be ordeined / counterualleth terualleth a commaundement / and owght to be folowed . And if where I haue said / the doinges of the Apostles owght to be folowed in the gouernment of the churches / he aske how : I answere / that that they did in especiall cases / then is to followed / when suche cases fall : those which they did ordinarily / and generally / to be ordinarily / and generally followed . Those thinges which they did in founding off churches / and before they were established / to be in life maner vsed : those which they did / when the churches were established / to be in the same maner ordered .

And ( to enter yet further into this matter ) Where he saithe / that the argument is nothing worth , which is drawen of the facte of the Apostle : by the same reason he also condemneth / argumentes browght of the factes of our Sauiour Christ / and muche more / of all other holie men / and Prophetes . Wherof the scripture is full / as when our Sau. Christ / proueth that it was lawfull in some case to breake the corporall reste of the Sabothe / by the example off Dauids Marc. 2. 26. 4. Luk. 25. 26. 27 , eating of the shew bread . As when he excused him selfe / that he did not worke his miracles in Nazareth / where he was nourished vp / rather then in Capernaum and other places : by the examples off Elias / and Elizeus / by which he tawght that a man may attempte nothing without a vocation . all these argumentes if M. D. had had the answeringe of them : he would as it semeth / haue said vnto our sauiour Christ / that they are nothing worth .

I graunt / there be some actes of our Sauiour Christ / and other godlie men in the scripture / which being commendable in them / would not be so in vs : they hauinge some either extraordinarie spirite / or commaundement which we haue not . Off which sort / Idowbte not but Maister Zuinglius mente this sentence / which yow alleadge : As would haue bene easely seene / yf yow had quoted the place . I think he hathe bene alledged / and quoted aboue fortie times before / and neuer a sentence that maketh either whot / or coulde to the matters in controuersie / or which might once prouoke me to look whether they were so / or noo : this onely place was somewhat materiall / and here it is not quoted . But to come againe to those extraordinarie factes : I saie / that as the spoilinge off the Egyptians by the Israelites at the commaundement off God / and the killinge of Cosby / and Zamry by Phinchas / throwghe the inspiration off the spirite off God / can not let vs from teachinge generally that theft is vnlawfull / that the Magistrate only owght to punishe publike malefactors : so those fewe Actes which doon of our Sau. Christ / the Apostles / and other godlie men / are not to be folowed off vs / : can not let vs to teache generally / that there Godly deedes which lie in vs to doo / owght to be followed . And as I may reason notwithstanding those examples / that he is a thefe / because he hath taken that which an other hath labored for against his will / and he is a murtherer / because he hathe slaine a malefactor / being no magistrate for that purpose : so I may saie he dothe well / for so our Sau. Christ did / so did the patriarches : and he dothe euill / for our Sauiour Christ / the Apostles / the patriarches did otherwise in that case . And he that shall denie this argument / withowt shewinge some speciall / and manifest reason / Wherfore it was lawfull for the one to doo that / which was not for the other : he is vnworthie to be a scholer in the diuinitie scooles much lesse Doctor . Yf therfore the Ans. would haue by any Good order / put me from the possession of this place : he should haue shewed / that S. Paul of some speciall occasion / which falleth not into our ministerie / vsed this circumspection in taking suche a clowde off witnesses / for the assurance off Timothies good behauior : or that there is some generall rule / and commaundement to the contrarie . But that as he hathe not done : so he can not doo / there being no one stepp / of any such either particular cause / or generall rule / either mentioned / or to be gathered of that place / or of any other scripture . It must therfore be estemed that S. Paul did that / of a generall equitie / and common conuēience / which owght to be vsed in such graue / and weightie matters off the church .

Yea if M. D. Would haue a litle laid a syde / his inordinate desyre off mainteining that which he hath once written . he should haue founde / iuster cause of this circumspection in our elections / then in this . For if S. Paul an Apostel / endewed with suche a gift of discretion of spirites / would not take Timothy / which had bene browght vpp from his cradell in the knowledge of the Scriptures / and had liued in all commendation from his infancie / Timothe I say / whom he had now knowen ( as it may be verie probably shewed ) of some reasonable time / into companye of his ministerye rye / withowt suche diligent circumspection : how muche lesse may a Bishop / in authoritie inferor vnto him / in gifte of discerninge spirites / not to be compared . receyue into the mynistery / vpon the Testymonie off one onelie / a man whom he hathe not knowen before / and whatsoeuer he be / in knowledge of the word of God far behinde / Timothy ? And yt is not to be let passe ( for further answere to that which ys alleadged owt of Zuinglius / Of a deede , or an example to make a law ) that yt hath bene shewed / to haue bene the practise of all the Apostles at other tymes / in there elections : and therfore this is not of one facte to make a rule / but off the continuull practise of the Apostles .

Moreouer by defense of receiuing at the testimony of one onely / what doth he els / then make as easie an entrance into the highest place off the church off God : as a man off any calling / and wisdome ioyned with yt / would make into one of the least offices of his howse ? for surely if he haue any regarde vnto the good order of his howse / and consider that the misbehauiour off his seruante / whom he will put in any trust / reacheth vnto the dishonour of him selfe / and his whole howshold : he will neuer admit him whom he knoweth not / withowt some one mans commendation / off whom he is well assured .

But the law of God in this behalfe / is most clere : which to the deciding of a weighty matter in dowbt / requireth two witnesses / and if it can be thre : and namely where the iudgement is of bloude / yt expresly forbiddeth / that iudgement should passe vpon Numbr . 35. Deut. 17. the Testimonye of one . But in the iudgement of a minister / where the question is of a great numbre / of destruction of bodie / and soule / and that for euer : shall it being dowbtfull / be giuen vpon one mans testimonie / how sufficient so euer he be ? Especially / seing that there owght to be greater triall / and more plentifull witnes in the churche matters / then in ciuil causes . which may appeare further / by that which S. Paul writeth vnto Tymothie : Where he willeth / that he should not receyue an accusacion against an elder / but vpon two / or there witnesses . For wherein ciuill causes / euen off bloude / the iudge may proceede vnto the sentence off condemnation / vppon two or thre witnesses : S. Paul will not haue Tymothie / not so muche as to receyue an accusation / against an elder / withowt 1. Tim. ● . so many . In ciuill causes a man may be dryuen to his purgation of bloude / and to his answere / vpon the accusation off one / althowghe he can not be so condemned / withowte his owne confession / or other triall / that falleth owt after the accusation commenced : but the elder shall not be driuen to answere vppon one mans Testimonie .

There remaineth to answere that / which is alledged off Paules receiuynge into the companie off the Apostles / by Testymonie of one . which if I should answere as M. D. dothe / I would aske him how he proueth / that which he saith ys manifest : for yt ys not expressed there / that they receiued him vppon Barnabas reporte . If I had said so / he would haue charged me with arrogancie / th●● I dare set downe that / which the holie goste hath not reueled . For it is said he was receiued / but that he was owt off hand receiued , or at Barnabas report , it is not expressed . And if I would walke his way / I could answere / that it might be / that they fyrst enquired off the trewth off those thinges / which Barnabas testified / before they receyued hym . But I leaue this answere / to those which thinke there ys no light in the worlde / to discouer suche follies : and thinke / that S. Lukes meaning was / to shew that he was receiued vpon Barnabas witnesse .

For answere therfore I saye : fyrst / that he vseth weight / and weight / measure and measure / which being abhominable before God / in biyng and selling suche base thinges : yt ys seuen folde more / in this holie traffyke off the glorious word off God . For when we gyue M. D. for profe off triall in the ministers election / that which was vsed in the Deacons / which ys like / and comprehended vnder one heade : he laieth in so heauie a weight / wherby he would make vs beliue / that the prose ys to light / saynge / that it is of the election of deacons , and maketh nothinge for vs . Now when he deliuereth vs a profe / that an election may passe by one witnes / he putteth in a lighter weight / for he bringeth in an example off S. Paul / one not then to be chosen / but alreadie chosen : Which came not to receiue any authoritie / wherby he might be enhabled / to doo that afterward which he could not doo before : but to conferre of that / which he had done before : Which came not to submit him selfe to any triall / but which had as good right to trie / as to be tried / to enquyre / as to be enquyred vpon . And that I take a● aduantage off this / that it wil be hard at any tyme to find a witnesse / so withowt all exception as Barnabas / which knew Saint Paul so well off whom he witnessed / and was knowen so well vnto the Apostels / to whom he commended him : I think there i● no glew so stronge / as can ioyne thes togither / A man which is dowbted off may be receiued to talke / and conferre with an other at testymonie of one : therfore he maye be receiued to the mynisterie / of the lyke Testymonie . Againe / three Apostles may receyue one to there conference / vpon one mannes witnesse : therfore one bishopp / may receyue one to teache others / vppon a syngle witnesse . Last off all ( which is most absurd ) three Apostles may at the witnesse off one man / receyue one that is dowbted off for a disciple / or one off the church : therfore one Bishop may likewise receiue one dowbted of / to be a mynister of the church . for it is cleere by S. Luke which saith / that S. Paul first assaied to ioyne him selfe vnto the church : that their consultation was not / whether Act. 9. 26 they should receyue him as an Apostle : but they feared that he was a wolfe / and went aboute vnder the colour off professing the Religion of Christ / to betray the whole churche off Ierusalem . So that yf they had bene persuaded off him / as off a Christian : they would haue admitted him into the church / withowt the Testymonie of Barnabas .

Touching the place of the kinges 1. 12. 3● . The holie Goste doth there / laye to Ierobohams charge / bothe that he made them Duis . 11. 12 pa. 143 off the basest off the people / which was a great prophanation of the Mynisterie : and that he toke them not owt off the tribe off Leuie / which was an other fault . For if he had taken off the wisest / and honestest families of other tribes / he would not haue said that he toke them of the basest of the people . And therfore that place was fitly alledged in that sense which I set downe : and yow that can see no other cause , why yt should be quoted , vnlesse yt were to proue that the ministerie should be tied to one degree , or calling : doo your selffe more iniurie / then a modest aduersarie would . For the light off the place is suche / that it will suffer no man to be ignorant / which hath but halffe an eye to see . And yet yow blushe not to require in your next section / an other answere vnto it . I could haue repeated my answere as yow haue there twise hard togither / obiected the same thing : but if I be not able to intertaine my reader / with that varietie which I would : yet would I be lothe to deceiue him / and make him beleue / that mutton rosted / and rosted mutton be two seuerall dishes . For let the reader iudge / whether ther be any other difference / betwene that which yow confesse my answere vnto / and that first section in the page followinge / wherunto yow require answere : and with those colewortes twise sodden / yow see I was content to let yow goo / as I haue done withe a numbre off other your faultes . To the rest I answer not .

What is the necessitie off Iudicialls / I haue declared . Touchinge Ca. 2. Di. 2. pa. 144 Eze. 44. the not entrie off the incircumcised in harte , and fleshe into the sanctuarie of the lord , which the Ans. alledgeth to proue / that the law touching the reiectinge off Idolatrous priestes , is abolished : change the sanctuarie into church / which it be tokeneth / and incircumcision into the want off baptisme / which was the same vnder the law / which this is vnder the gospell : and then it is the morall / and euerlastinge law off God / that none which is heathenish in minde / and withall professeth the same / by the not receiuinge off the holie Sacrament off baptisme / should be admitted to the church off God . And if he saie / that it is not perpetuall / for that incircumcision of the fleshe / is now no fault : he owght to vnderstand / that the estate off the church in the gospell / is shadowed owt by those thinges / which were vsed vnder the law : As when it is said / there shal be an aulter built vp vnto the lord in the middest off Aegypte , that their shal be no Canamite in all the mountaine Isa. 19 19 Zach. 14. ●● . off God . And therfore as the remouinge off aulters owt off the church / which then were in vse / and receiuing in one off the nation off Canaan into the church / which was then vnlawfull / derogateth nothing from the stablenes of these lawes : so the admittinge off one which is incircuncised in fleshe / doth nothinge diminishe the vnchaungeablenes off that law / which the Prophete there mentioneth . I am well content therfore that these two be matched / and that they die / and liue togither .

The other place / of entringe in clothed withe linnen , compared withe this : hath no coulour off argument . For it dothe not folowe / that because the ceremoniall law is abrogated / therfore the iudiciall is also . Are these your circumstances / that declare the meaning off the place ? let it be admitted that bohte these lawes / the one which goeth before / the other which followeth after / are abrogated : doth it followe therefore that this is also / of reiecting idolatrous preistes From the ministerie ? That which is alleadged by the admonition / is the 10. verse . of 44. chapter / and althowghe one of the places alledged by yow / be the verse next going before / yet the second is the seuenth verse / after the place of the admonition . Now if it be sound reason which yow alledge / all those lawes in the Testament which are so placed / that they haue either a ceremoniall / oriudiciall law next going before them / and another following within the compasse off 7. verses : are either quite abrogated / or els not perpetuall . Which if it be trew : fare well Moses / fare well the Prophetes / fare well the morall lawes off God : they may all depart with the D. good leaue / nay for that they wil not serue him / he thrusteth them owt . Before he picked them here / and there : but this is an engine / to ouerthrowe them all at once . For I appeale to all your knowledges / which haue euerreade the law / if there be any one off the perpetuall lawes off God : which may not be found in some place off the law / and Prophetes so placed as this is : and against the which this exception which the D. doth so bouldly auouche / may not be made . I could I am well assured / runne throwgh all the commaundementes / and by this reason hurle them euerie one owt of the church / yf yt were not follie to labour in confutinge of suche phrensies as these are : and the thing also were not so plaine / as none of any reading in the oulde Testament / can be ignorante . so that his pen̄e is a penknife to cut a sonder al the scriptures .

Touchinge the interpretation off the wordes of the Apostle / that the ministers being tied , should execute their functions , as longe as they continue vnblameable : I toke the sense which was fyt for my cause / and neither against the scope off the Apostle / nor any grammer construction . Yow saye the greke is / if in triall 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . they be found blamelesse . Because yow tie me so fast vnto the nombre of wordes / where haue yow this translation ? or in the greeke wordes yow alledge / what haue yow to beare thes wordes ( in triall ? or shew me whie I may not / as well resolue the participle into the coniunctine mode / by the coniunction ( so longe as ) as by the coniunction ( if ) : as longe as I doo it / neither against the trewth / nor against the purpose off the Apostle . I graunt that sense trew / but why may not this also be ioyned : seing bothe the wordes / and scope off the Apostle / will beare bothe ? yow should therfore haue shewed / that these wordes will not beare this sense / and yf yow shew me that / yet can yow not put me from houlde of that place . For as muche as yt is most iustlie concluded / that if the ministers must be blamelesse / before they come to the ministerie ▪ they owght muche more so to be / in the execution off it : considering that falles in execution off the ministerie / are more daungerous to the church / then those before .

Althowgh triall be made before admission / and off thinges past : yet is it done in respecte off the ministerie that shall followe . Therfore yt agreeth well with the triall / That S. Paul should giue warninge / that they should no longer be suffred to Minister : then they remaine suche / as by triall they were supposed to be . And where yow saye / that it is spoken in that place off deacons : yt ys muche more off Bishops . And yff a Deacon fallinge awaie from the trewth / owght to be put from the charge / or honor which he had in the church : muche more a bishop . But I nothing dowbt / but that the Apostel referred this sentence / vnto bothe a bishop / and deacon . For hauing before spoken / off them bothe aparte : he dothe here ioyne them together / in that which is common to them : ye● belonging rather to the bishop / then to the deacon . And it is as muche as yff the Apostle should saie : I haue set before thine eies / what be the qualities / bothe off the bishopp / and deacon : looke now none be permitted to come vnto these offices / which haue not bene tried before . And that this is soo / it may appeare / for that the nexte verse / which is thouching the qualities off wiues / is not onely a description / what wiues the deacons / but what wiues also the Bishops / should haue . Vnlesse we will saie / that S. Paul trauailed in describing off the deacons wiues / and lefte the bishopps wiues vntouched : which how yt soundeth in other mens eares / I can not tell / in mine it is absurde . Againe if the 10. and 11. verses had bene to be vnderstanded off the Deacons trial / Paule and their wiues onlie : S. Paule would not haue begonne his 12. verse as he did / by a repetion of the name off Deacons . For yt had bene enoughe to haue said / let them be the husbandes of one wife : now when he saith ( let the deacons , &c. ) he declareth / that he had discontinued his proper treatise of deacons / which he resumeth againe / by that maner off expressinge the name off a deacon .

The sense which I haue alledged / soundeth no whit that way / that the vertue off the word , &c. should depend off the good life off the minister . What likelihood is there betweene these / a minister which hathe fallen into idolatrie , owght not to be receiued , althowghe he repent , and be neuer so holie : and this / that yow surmise off me / that the vertue off the word , &c. dependeth vppon the holines off the minister ? Was the spirite off God Anabaptisticall / whiche ordeined this first ? did he therfore forbidd the Leuites approche vnto the table off the Lord / be cause he woulde teache men / that the vertue off the Sacramentes , depended off the holines off the ministers ? did the churches which vsed and established this order / the fathers which taught it / therby establishe Anabaptistrie ? I did not take vppon me to translate the place / neither doo I vse for euerie place which I alledge / to goo to the translations : I toke ( as I said ) that which was for my purpose / and whiche I thowght warranted / bothe by the wordes / and intent of the Apostle . And yf I shoulde consulte / and conferre all translations : could yow helpe me to a greeke text that doth translate the newe Testament . Either yow be a great straunger in Grece : or yow haue traueiled further into it / then any man that I haue heard off . I haue heard off a greke paraphrase / which is with some moo wordes to bringe light to the texte / as off the Scoliast : and off Metaphrase / which is to chaunge the profe into meter / as Nonnus did S. Iohn : but off a greke translation off the newe Testament / I neuer heard . But this was not off euill will / and therfore I easelie forgiue yt yow .

The rules which S. Paul giueth in that chapter / are not onelie to teache that he that is endued withe those qualities there 1. Tim. 3. described / owght to be chosen to the Ministerie : but also teache / that those which haue them not / should not be admitted : and yf yf they be / should be deposed . And this yow might easely haue learned 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . by common reason / which saith / that there is the same knowledge off contraries .

S. Peters , and S. Paules admissions vnto the Apostleshipp , was to be handled in the next section / where I preuent these obiections / and giue no occasion to speake off them here : yet they are plucked in before the time / and barely affirmed / withowt any confutation off the reasons / which I alledge . What confusion is this / and how lothsome repetitions are these ?

I saye that one that hathe bene an adulterer / should not be receiued into the ministerie : I proue it / for that S. Paule will not admit one to the ministerie / that hath had two wiues at once . And that it owght to be extended / not onely to the tyme off his choise / but also to the rest off his life : I proue by that which is said / of the choise of the widowe / where S. Paul makethe this one 1. Tim. 5. condition / that she should be suche a one / as hathe had but one husband at once / and whiche had not bene maried vnto another / after an insufficient diuorce . For that that is the meaning off the Apostle ( althowgh Maister Caluinfolowed an other sense ) is verie plentifully / and substantiallie shewed by M. Beza . Wherupon I concluded / if S. Paule would not admitte her to the lowest office in the church / which at any tyme had two husbandes : muche lesse his meaning was / to admit to the cheiffest office in the churche / one which at any tyme had had two wiues at once . This the Answerer / as thowghe he had neuer feene or hard off yt / passeth by : for what answereth he ? Forsoothe that he dowbteth not . but the whoremonger if he repent , &c. may be admitted vnto the ministerie . And if I should haue answered / I doubt not the contrarie : What then ? what answereth he further ? that S. Paules minde is not , to seclude him that had two wiues , or hathe bene a whoremonger , &c. I haue denied it / and haue shewed the reason off the contrarie : he hathe answered nothing . For wher he afterward speaketh of the widowe / which be denieth can be said , to haue ledd all her liffe in good workes : he answereth not to that / wherin the point off the reason liethe / which is / that she owght not to be admitted , which hathe had more husbandes at once ▪ then one : yff that be graunted vnto me : it is sufficient for the purpose / I alledged that place for .

Nether was it enowghe for yow to passe by my reason / but yow must most shamefullie moue suspition vnto the reader / off my fauoring off the popishe bigamie . What likelihoode is there betwene whoredome / or hauing two wiues at once : with hauing two wines one after the deathe off an other / or marying a widowe / which the Papistes call bigamie ? yff yow haue no feare of God before your eies : ys there no reuerence off men ?

The first off your reasons / to proue that a knowen adulterer may be receiued into the ministerie : is that S. Paule by forbidding to receiue vnto the ministerie , one which had bene a whoremonger , or which had two wiues at once should deale otherwise withe them , then he was dealt withe all him selfe . I gaue the reason off this in the section folowinge / that our Sau. Christ ( hauing the law in his owne hande / and making no law to him selffe / but for vs ) might doo that which is not lawfull for the churche to doo : whiche reason being neither answered here / nor els where / owght to haue staied yow from this answer . I gaue this weapon / but I turned the edge of it / and made it flat : yt was not therfore to warre withe all / vnlesse yow had set a new edge .

This solution / that it is not lawfull for the churche , nor for all the churches in there elections , to doo that whiche was lawfull for our Sauiour Christ : yf it doo not plainlie enowghe appeare / in the examples off these two Apostles / it may be seene in the election off them all . For it is not lawfull for any Apostle / or for all the Apostles / or for all the churches ioyned together / to appointe any to the mynisterie / which is not fit for the mynisterie / at the tyme when he is chosen vnto yt : But our Sauiour Christ chose / and apointed eleuen Apostles / to preache throwghe owt the whole Math. 28. 19. worlde / when as they had but one onely tonge / off the contrey where they were borne / the charge wherunto they were appointed / requiring the knowledge off many tongues . And in this example off S. Paules calling vnto the mynisterie / yt is clere / that our Sau. Christ dealt otherwise / then S. Paule deaiethe withe other . For he was called to the Apostleshipp / as sone as euer he was called to the churche ? whiche he forbiddethe by expresse wordes / 1. Tim. 3. 6. when he warneth / that he be no new plante , that is to saye / latelie come to the knowledge off the trewth / which is to be taken to the ministerie . So that yow see S. Paule dealethe otherwise withe other ministers , then he was dealt withall himselfe .

The next reason is / that we reade off none deposed from their ministerie in the new testament , althowghe they were founde in manie thinges giltie . is it not lawfull for vs / to reason against the vnlawfullnes off a thing / for that yt is not in none off bothe the testamentes / neither directly / not indirectlie / neither expressedly / nor conteinedly : and shall yow conclude negatiuely / vppon the examples onelie off the new Testament ? The new Testament makethe mention off notable 4. Ioh. 8. Ioh. Harlots / and those also whiche were off the churche / and yet yt makethe no mention that either they receiued any ciuill / or ecclesiasticall correction : therfore ( by your reason ) notable Harlots / are not to be punished / either with ciuill / or ecclesiasticall correction .

But Christ knewe Iudas to be a traytor , and yet he did not depose him : so he knewe him to be a traitor / when he chose him . Therfore if this be a good reason / that a traitor to God and the gospell should not be deposed : it hathe the same force to proue / that a traitor may be chosen to the ministerie . Moreouer / Iudas was admitted to the lordes supper / therfore if this reason will serue to proue / that a traitor should not be deposed : yt is good to proue / that he may be also receiued to the lordes table . Iudas treason was as yet hidden / there were no witnesses off it / and therfore by no law off God / either ciuill / or ecclesiasticall / could be proceaded against . For the law off God in all ecclesiasticall / and ciuill punishmentes / requireth either confession by the partie / off the faulte whiche is committed / or els profe by witnesse .

He proceedeth saying that the Scribes , and Pharises criminous &c. are commaunded to be hard in the chaire , &c. Good lord be mercifull vnto vs / whether will this man goo ? will he haue traitors vnto Christ / sworne / open / and professed enemies vnto the gospel / to haue charge in the church off God / and not to be deposed ? for whether can these examples tend els ? our Sauiour Christ commaunded the people that they should be heard / in that they said trewly owt off the law / and that their faultes should not hinder them / to embrace that which they taught well . What is that to our question ? this dothe aptely proue / that the vertue off the worde / dothe not depende vpon the worthynes off the minister : and thetherto it is referred . But to proue that they owght not haue bene deposed from theire ministerie / there is not a word . But why did our Sauiour Christ not depose them ? And why did he will there doctrine agreable to the law to be receiued ? He deposed them not for that as he was the Minister off circumcision / he coulde not : hauing not to doo that wayes / but withe those that woulde submit themselues to his doctrine . And if he should haue giuen sentence off there deposition / they would not haue obeied yt : and he had not the sworde to compell them . This therfore remained for hym to doo / that when neither the people could shake off their yoke / nor he displace them : that as he had often giuen warning / off their false doctrine : so he should will them to take heede / that neither the hatred off there euill liffe / nor off their false doctrine driue them to mislike off that / which was well taught . And iff this be a good reason to proue / that those that be criminouse should not be deposed / because our Sauiour Christ willed the people to Ioh. 10. Matth. 7. Luk. 16. Luk. 10. 25. heare , &c : Then spirituall theues / and murtherers / corrupters off the law / teachers off iustification by workes / owght not to be put owt off the ministerie . For those off whom our Sauiour Christ spake these thinges / were suche .

And as for the wicked preachers in the church off Philippos : fyrst yow are greatlie abused . For althowghe he write vnto the Philpiane / yet these preachers he there speaketh off / were in the church of Rome / and not in the church of Philip. And then / if I should aske yow how yow know / that he did not will their ministerie to be taken from them your owne mouth condemneth yow . For by your rule it is presumption / to speake any thinge that the holie gost hathe not expressed . And it is not onelie not expressed / but it can not be gathered . For if yow thinke / that therfore he willed them not to be deposed / because he was gladd / that Christ was preached by them : yow deceiue your selfe . For he saith if he were offered vp and should die 2 cap. phil. 17. 18. for confirmation of his ministerie : yet he would reioice in it , and requireth the whole church to reioyce withe him for yt . Would not therfore S. Paule haue escaped the Tirantes hand / if he might lawfuly ? or owght not the church of Philippos / to haue forbidden the puttinge to death off the Apostell / yff they could haue done yt ? So that yow see / a man maye reioyce at the fruite off an action / that an other doeth : which if it laie in him to let / he owght not suffer to be done . For when as of euill doinge / maye come good / as we owght to be sorie at the euill which is done : so it is lawfull for vs to reioice of the good / which hathe followed that euill . And this distinction off reioycinge / S. Paul dothe include in these Philip. 1. cap. 18. v. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . wordes in this , which he setteth downe to be / in that Christ is preached . As yff he would saye / yt greueth me that the word is preached by suche men / but yet I am glad that yt is preached .

And althowghe it be hard to knowe / how they sought to add to S. Paules bandes / yet if be trew that the greke Scoliast writeth / that they did it to this ende / that the persecutors seing the numbre off the professors of Christ / might ( beinge more inflamed against S. Paul / as one which had sowen the first seed ) the rather hasten his death : who seeth not that it had bene the churches parte at Rome / to haue to the vttermost off their power / endeuored to haue stopped the mouth off those preachers ? therfore I am well assured / that yf the godlie off the church which was at Rome / could haue restreyned those preachers : they would not haue suffred them / to haue abused the gospell to his streighter imprisonment / much lesse to the taking away off his life . And therfore that they were not restreined / proueth nothinge that they owght not by any meanes / so to haue bene : but rather argueth the fewnes of the church / which fauoured sinceritie off the gospell / that S. Paule preached / which fewnes also appeareth in an other place . ● . Tim. 4. 16.

The next reason is verie straunge / that everie one which is a membre off the inuisible church , should be a minister off the visible . For by this meanes / may be taken not onelie the most vnhablest in the church : but those also / which are not yet called to the church . But your meaning is / if he be off the church / and other thinges correspondent . yet one off those conditions is no where expressed / and the other is almost thirtie lines before in an other section / and in an other case : so that it is daungerously spoken / and may gyue very great occasion off offense . And I leaue it to the consideration of the te●der / how often yow haue quarreled / where there is nothing the like occasion / as yow giue by this losenes .

I will also let goo / your vnproper / and vnwonted speach / wherby yow make one / and the same / at one / and the same tyme / a membre off the visible / and inuisible church . For seinge the inuisible church vppon earth / is off those onely / which either are not called / or lie hid / and vngathered vnto any knowen felowship where the word of God is preached / and the sacramentes administred : he which by repentaunce ioineth him selffe to the visible church off God / can not be said to be a membre off the inuisible church . For as when the triumphant church is opposed vnto the militante / one man / at one time / can not be said to be a membre off bothe : so here where yow oppose the visible / and inuisible church / it can not be that he that is said / to be a membre off the one / should be also a membre off the other . But for answere I saie / that if there were here any comparison at all / yet it halteth downe right : althowghe we owght charytably to thinke / that he that hath giuen good tokens off repentance / hath trewlie repented / and therfore is of the electe church of God : yet that foundation alwaies remaineth / that when the question is of an others mans election / God knoweth who are his . So that yow can draw no argument from 2. Tim. 2. 19. his election / which is vncertaine vnto vs : to conclude a certeine election / vnto the ministerie .

Againe why doo yow saie / he that is a membre off the inuisible , maye be a minister in the visible ? as thowghe the inuisible church / were off some higher nature / then the visible : or as thowghe the trew membres off the visible church / did not make one misticall bodie off Christ with the inuisible .

Therfore when all commeth to all / the reason is nothing els / but he is a membre off the church / ergo he is fit to be a minister off the church / which is very absurd . For by this meanes all good order off discipline is troubled / in howse / and in common wealthe . The maister which hath bene deceiued off his seruant / which he moste put in trust ( as for example in the office off stewardship ) if he giue good tokens off repentance / must off necessitie restore him to his place . For will he seclude him from his stewardship / whom Christ dothe receiue into his kingdome ? and shall not we think him / to be a meete officer in his maisters howse / albeit he haue committed adulterie with his mistres : which is a membre off the electe churche off Christ ? And this reason standing / common wealthes must goo vpside downe . for besides that all those lawes are condemned / which debarre men from certeine freedomes / and honours / which haue bene stained with especiall vices : as he that is once conuinced off periurie / from bearing witnesse at any tyme / &c. there maie none either traitor / or murtherer / be put to death / if he be repentante . For his pardon is caselie pleaded by the Answ. rule / that if he be meete to dwell in heauen / he is meete to remaine vppon earth / and if the lord giue him euerlasting liffe / should we denie vnto him this transsitorie liffe ? And not that onely / but if he had had an office before / it is meete he shoulde be restored to it againe . If this be an absurde / and anabaptisticall kind off reasoninge / in the discipline off the howse / and gouernment off the common wealth : how is it not the same / in the discipline of the church ?

And iff yow sticke so hard to the example off God : it is not hard to shew / how that the lord remitting the faulte vnto his children vppon their repentance / hathe notwithstandinge kept them in sharpe discipline for their faultes / all the daies off their liffe / bothe in there owne persons / and sometimes in there childrens / and in all that belonged vnto them . so that yf yow will needes tie 2 , Sam. 12. 10. the church / to the example off goddes mercie / and forgiuence : that dothe not onelie not hinder these chastismentes / and church discipline : but also extendeth it further / then the church / or the common wealth may doo .

The holie goste by Iethro / prescribinge what officers should 18. Exod. be chosen / dothe not onelie require / that they should feare God ( which is to saie / be of good religion ) be wise / and valiant : but also requireth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 7. Neh. 2. that they be trustie , which ( as appeareth by other places off the Scripture / where this here commaunded / was put in execution ) signifieth suche as were faithfull / and trustie to the commonwealth / and which had of their former life / giuen good argumentes off there fastnes that way . Therfore if in choise to the greate / and weightie charges off the common wealth it is not enoughe that they be of good Religion / able also for their wisdome / and courage off minde to execute : vnlesse they haue bene founde faithfull in that estate / wherin they haue liued before : how muche more owght that to be obserued / in committing the greatest charge / that is vnder the sonne / which is the Ministerie off the worde ? And if in common wealthes / men will committe no greate trust vnto him / which hathe deceiued the trust / which was put vppon him : how much more owght that to be obserued in the church ? Where as the losse / and daunger is greater : so owght the trust to be slower / and the parties to whom it shoulde be committed / more vnsuspected . And yet for further confirmation he must vnderstand / that for as muche as our Sauiour Christ / and S. Paule require / that a minister off the word off God should be faithfull in his office : as those to whom the choise belongeth / owght to haue regard to his former sobrietie / continencie in liffe / and other vertues / to induce them selues to a good persuasion off him / towching those vertues : so owght they vppon his former life / to gather suche argumentes of his faithfullnes / and trust : as therby they may be able to meintaine a stronge / and mightie presumption off the faithfullnes which is to come . which thinge when they can not doo in one / whose vntrustines is freshe before their eies : they can not haue sufficient testimonie / to perswade their conscience / that he is of that trust / to whom they may commit the church of God . For if they looke vpon repentance which he professeth : it commeth alwaies to minde / that countenance / the eies do lie oftentimes / and mouth oftenest off all . And albeit vppon good / and likelie tokens / the church owght to thinke it a trew repentaunce : yet it can not be so sure thereoff / as it is off the vnfaithfulnes . So that in weighing the repentaunce / which is vncertaine / with the counterpoise of his vnfaithfulnes / that is certaine : it will be harde to conceiue that strenght of opinion / off his ●●faithfulnes / wherupon they may aduenture / to put him againe in trust with the church . At the leste / if there be one fit for the Ministerie / which neuer was stained with that fault : all men must needes graunt / that he is meeter / to satisfie the consciences off the chusers / then the other : which the Ans. denieth .

And as before I haue shewed / that the example of our Sau. Christ / in putting . S. Paule / and S. Peter into the ministerie / is not to be folowed off vs : So vppon the matter I haue here alledged / it may Ioh. 2. Psal. 139. easelie appeare why . That is to say / for as muche as he knew the harte off man / and sawe their cogitations longe before they were conceiued : he needed not any time to trie / how they would behaue them selues in their ministerie / nor any either Testimonies / or argumentes of former liffe / to helpe his persuasion off their fitnes thereunto . Therfore he knowing / both by the fulnes off the spirite off discretion / gyuen hym withowt measure / and by his diuine knowledge / how faithfullie they would employe themselues in that mynistrye : mighte well open the dore vnto those / againste whom the churche owghte to kepe yt shutte .

If any man woulde here excepte againste this answer / with the example of Iudas / which did so traiterously behaue hym selfe in his office : yt ys not worthe the answer . For who knoweth not / that that was doone / that the Scripture mighte be fulfilled : and that for that cawse our Sauiour Christe / forseinge the treason Ioh. 13. Act. 1. to come / did notwithstandinge gyue him a place in that mynisterie ? So that yf they woulde conclude any thinge off that example : they muste conclude / that the churche maie chuse one / which yt thincketh will deceyue the truste / that ys laide vppon him . I coulde here dispute / whether althowghe he repented trewlie / yet forsomuche as he is subiecte to another suche fall / as well as any other : yt were boothe lesse daunger for hym / and les hurte for the churche / to receiue suche an ouerthrowe vnder an other capitayne neuer foiled / then vnder him / vnder whom yt hathe already bene put to flighte . But forsomuche as yt is not so cleare / and requireth a longer discourse : I am contente to let that passe .

Yet that maye not be omitted / that as in the refusall off a minister / which hathe defyled hym selfe withe Idolatrie / prouision is made for the safety / and securitie of the churche : so an eye ys had to a more plentifull fruicte / which maie redounde vnto it / by hym that is placed in the ministrie . And forasmuche as no smale portion off that / shoulde be by greate likelihoode turned a waie / by restoring suche one / as hathe fallen so grieuously : amongest other reasons that also hathe force / to hinder his restirucion . For when S. Paule requireth aucthoritie in a deacon / purchased by continuall 1. Tim. 3. tenor / and as yt weere by an euen thread / of a holye / and innocente liffe / that he might withe greater libertie / and boldnes execute his office : he sufficiently declarethe / that suche a fall / especially in the bishoppe / and mynister / taken in the race off his ministerie / maketh a deepe wounde into that authoritie / and freedome off rebukinge others / which is necessary for hym / for furtherance off hy mynistry / to retaine . And as yt taketh awaie from his freedome in reprehending : so that which he reprehendethe / hathe so muche lesse aucthoritye withe the hearer : as yt is not onlye not confyrmed / but contraried by his example . And yf Tymothe / beinge endewed with suche rare gyftes off knowledge / and holynes 1. Tim. 4. 12. off lyffe / had muche a doo to mainteine his authoritie in the churche / againste the contempte of his yowthe / which was no faulte : he had neede haue very extraordinarie gyftes / which can deliuer hys mynisterie from contempte / ten folde more occasioned by suche a fall / then by wante / of a fewe years . Seinge therfore the wounde beinge healed by repentance / the skarr dothe yet remaine in the eyes of the churche / to the blemishinge of his Mynistrie : yt ys good he be taken downe / and set in some les lightesome place / off the churche off God .

There was yet a thirde reason / whiche no doubte moued the churches to keepe this order : that this barre off hym from the mynistrie / whiche had so fallen / mighte serue for example vnto other mynisters / to take heede . For they consydered well / that as common wealthes / so the churches of God / are preserued by rewarde / and punishement : and that as in the rewarde off some / other are prouoked to make after those thinges / which are by that rewarde crowned : so by the punishement off some / other are terrified from doinge that / for whiche they see them dishonored . Therfore they thowghte yt vnmete / that he which had faulted in the qualytie off a mynister / shoulde no other wise be disciplined / then a pryuate person : but rather as his faulte exceded / so his correction shoulde encrease . Whiche thinge beinge so muche commended / in common wealthes well gouerned : I see no cause / why yt shoulde not be as conueniente in the churche off God : so farre / and in suche kinde off corrections / as are in the churches power . And therfore yt appeareth / that the commaundemente which is gyuen in Ezethiell / and in the booke off the kinges / for the separatinge off the Leuytes from their Ministerie / which had fallen to Idolatrye : was not a lawe for a tyme / but drawne from the springe off that equytie / which can not be changed .

And so farr is yt / that the gospell hath made this lawe voide : that yt hathe also confyrmed yt . for yf the ministerie off the lawe / were so gloriouse / that yt woulde not be handled off those / which had once fallen from yt by Idolatrie / althowghe they did repente : howe muche more / owghte the mynystrie off the gospell 2. Cor. 3. ( which so surmounteth the mynisterie off the lawe / as the gospell dothe the lawe ) be vntowched off suche / as forsaking yt / haue defyled them selues with that synne ? And if for a lesse faulte / they were kepte from a lower place in the church : for a greater faulte / shoulde not they muche more be kepte from a higher dignitie ? for wheras nowe the seconde tyme he faithe / that vnder the lawe , there were certeine corporall pollutions , which made a man vncleane for a tyme : yt proceadethe of too great ignorance off the Scripture / either in not knowing / in what shorte tyme those polutions mighte be purged : or els assigning anie cawse off the Leuytes putting forthe off their ministrie for euer / for the polutions which were in so fewe dayes clensed .

Yowr allegation owte off maister Caluin towching the widowes / is nothing for yow / nothing to the cause . For what if he saye / that the Apostell requireth that they shoulde be benyficiall : doothe yt therfore followe / that respecte shoulde not be had into their whole life . Yt may be easely vnsterstanded / that the apostel hauing drawne the office off a wydowe / throwghe diuers sortes of good workes / becawse yt had bene to longe / to recyte all : shutteth vp with that clause / as yf he shoulde saie / that I stande not in rehersall off all / I will haue her suche / as hathe exercised her selfe in euery good worke .

But I desire the reader to obserue the vnfaithfullnes / and open corruption that he vseth / in cyting off maister Calu. For his iudgement being not called for / but answere required to the wordes of S. Paule / he hath taken that which serueth not to the purpose / and hathe lefte owte that in the exposition of the same verse / which is directly againste that he alledgeth maister Caluin for . Whose wordes are these / There is no dowbte , b●t there were worshipfull , and very reuerent colledges , or companies off widowes : vppon 1 ▪ Tim. 5. therfore Paule will haue none chosen thether , but such as be commended by a notable testimonie , off their whole former lyfe .

And wheras he asketh / howe coulde that be , when they had but one parte off theire lyfe knowen Christe : not to speake off the Iewishe widowes / which might haue led their whole life in good / and holy worckes in deede : he muste learne / that S. Paule dothe not there speake onely off good workes / which are the fruictes of faithe : but callethe those good workes / whiche are cyuilly / and in owtewarde shewe / and estimacion off men good . So that he requireth / that those onely be chosen emongest the weomen / which were neuer detected off any notable cryme : but haue allwaies lyued in an honeste / cyuill behauiour amongest their neighboures . And thus S. Luke calleth those weomen religious , and honeste , 13. Act. 50 which were moued to persequte S. Paul. There was nether trewe Religion / nor honestie in them / but so he calleth them / because they were so estemed . S. Paul also saithe off him selffe / when he was the enemy off Christe / that he was before his conuersion / as Phil. 3. 6. towching the iustice of the lawe , vnblamable : Which muste needes be vnderstanded / off a cyuill / and owtward kinde off iustice / and not off any good workes / which were trewe fruictes off the spirite off God . Hereoff he requireth / that he that is to be chosen 1. Tim. 3. 7. bishope / shoulde haue the Testymonie off straungers from the churche : that is to saye / which liued with owt breache off that cyuill honestie / which the very heathen haue in recommendation . Which Testimonye he could neuer haue yf he were knowen / to be either a drunckard / or an adulterer / &c. the knowledge off which crymes / God hathe written / so deeply in the harte off man / that no ignorance off God / or sauagenes off liffe / coulde euer rase yt owte . So yow see S. Paule / mighte require a Testimonie of good behauior off the whole liffe of those / which had led put a parte of yt in Christianitie .

Who goeth abowte to excuse S. Peters denyall ? doothe he that saithe yt is a greate and a haynous cryme , excuse it : I saide / I thowghte Diuis. 3. pag. 146. I shoulde trouble yow , if I put yow to proue his faulte to be as greate as his that slydeth from the gospel , to Idolatrie , and therein abyde the some years : And I perceiue I haue troubled yow / for yow can not answer vnto that poore reason / whiche I in passing interlaced . To helpe to mainteine your vntrwth / yow haue here set S. Peters faulte of the laste / sayinge / he did yt wittingly , and willingly . For yt beinge doone off infyrmitie / and to saue his life / althowghe yt is was not doone withowte his will : yet I reporte me to the vse off our speache / whether this wittinge , and willing doing be not spoken of those onely / whiche doo yt withowte any manner off compulsion / or drifte off feare .

But therein yow doo hym open iniurie / when yow saye / that his faulte was as greauous as any binde of idolatrie . For I beseche yow is not the denyall off the gospell / as greate a faulte / as the deniall of Christe ? so farre therfore the faultes are equall . In denyinge twise / he is matched withe a greate number off Idolaters / whiche at one clapp haue renounced hym withe mouthe / and subscribed againste hym with their hande , and where he forsware hym once / they haue forsworne hym oft / according to the number off dioceses / where they haue had their lyuinges / and diuersytie off tymes wherin suche thinges haue bene required . That warning S. Peter had a lytle before / by the mouthe off our Sauiour Christe , they had by the voice off the minister / whiche hathe the authoritie off Christe . That he did almoste in the presence off his master , yt semeth by that whiche hathe folowed in some / they woulde haue done / yf he had stoode / and loked on .

But let that encrease his faulte / yet this circumstance makethe yt not so greate / that where Peter denied Christe cast downe / or in time off his humility : they haue denied hym risen from the deade / ascended vpp into heauen / fytting on the righte hand● off God the father in glorie . I leaue to be consydered / whether hetherto the faulte off Sainte Peter / be not onely matched / but also ouerweighed . Now for a surcrease / and ouerrunninge measure / S. Peter did yt to saue his skin / they to saue their honor : He for his liffe / they for their lyuinge . I speake fauorablie / for otherwise I mighte saye of some / that they did it not onely to saue that whiche they had / but to get more vnto yt . S. Peter did it pe●●●●●ly / and in a corner : they in set / and open iudgement . He onely denied that he knew hym / or that he was one off his disciples / but spake no euill off him / nor of his doctrine : they affirmed that they knewe the gospel to be nawghte / and so spake euill bothe of Christ and yt . He did yt sodenly / and at a pushe : they deliberatly / and withe tyme giuen to consulte : he althowghe he forsoke his master Christe / yet he neuer serued the scribes / and Phariseis / whiche were the enemies off Christe : they did not onely forsake Christe / but serued in the courtes off his sworne enemie Antechriste .

Now if their faultes were in the very kinde / so manye waies greater then his : it muste needes followe / that the longer they spunne the thread off their sinne / then he did off his : so muche more growethe vnto theirs / then vnto his : and therfore what difference betwene howres / and yeares : so muche betwene theirs / and his . I leue to speake how S. Peter / was wakened at the voice of a ●ocke / whiche they were not at manie voices off the sonne of god : he was checked at a looke off our Sauiour Christe : they not at his frowne / and chidinge voice .

I haue spoken this / neither to excuse Saint Peter / whom I knowe to haue sinned heinouslie / nor to throwe downe the seate off mercie agayinste those / which haue thus sinned / whiche standeth sure vppon the brasen pillers off the promisses off God / to all which doo repente : but to this ende / that I mighte shewe / howe vntrewe it is / that is here so auouched off the Ans. that S. Peters faulte was more greuous , then any kinde off idolatrie . and that suche as haue so sinned / vnderstanding their sinne to be of a longer laste / than S. Peters / mighte not deceiue them selues in the measure .

Yt makethe nothing to the purpose that is heere alledged / of the vnchaungablenes of the mercye of god : or that owte off S. Paule to Timothie . As if the question were / whether they whiche had fallen from the ministerye of the gospell to Idolatrie / shoulde be receiued to mercie : or that the mercie off God were denied vnto him / to whom the ministrie is denied : or as if mercy / and correction coulde not stande to gether : or as if the Leuites receiued not mercie / bothe of God / and off the churche / whiche receiued not their ministerie : or as thowghe Ciprian / and other fathers / whiche shutte the doore of the ministerie againste suche / were not enemies vnto those that denied repentance vnto the fallen / when Ciprian callethe Nonatus ( author off that error ) the murtherer off repentaunce . I meruaile therfore what he meaneth / thus to goo abowte to abuse his reader / in seeminge to saie something / when he saith nothing .

In the ende he saithe / that these examples off our Sauiour Christe , are not to be followed in all poinctes . In what poinctes to be followed ? and in what to be avoided ? this was necessary to haue bene shewed . And haue yow forgotten / what yow asked off mee : how I knewe certeine thinges to be followed , and other not ? and howe either all muste pag. 133. be followed , or none ? and what reuelation I had receiued to knowe what thinges in the election off Matthias perteined to ours , and what not ? howe pernicious a voice it is / / bothe to the churche / and common wealthe / that no man what cryme soeuer he hathe committed , is to be secluded from anye lawfull vocation yff he repent : howe licentious / howe nere approching to Anabaptisme / if I had saide nothing at all / yet hathe it plentifull confutation / bothe off reason / and off all good policed churches / or common wealthes that euer were . I haue shewed generall commaundementes to the contrarie : therfore vnles yow can shewe them repealed / by a contrarie acte : they are still in force . For the examples off S. Peter and S. Paule / here tediously repeated : I haue answerrd before at lardge .

Towching the wyping a waie off Ambrose example , I did it firste in place : which yowr glosse denieth . For prouing that no newe conuerte / Diu. 4. p. 14● . should be chosen to the ministerie / allthowgh our Sauiour Christe did chuse S. Paule / Ambrose example stoode in the waie : and therfore I gaue him in deede the wipe / but it was with the sworde off God . His choise was also / againste the allowed practise off the churche / if yow knowe whose voice this is : yester daie cathechised , to daie a bishop . Where he merueilethe / that 〈◊〉 . ad Oc●●n . so plaine a precepte off S. Paule is not kepte / and callethe them sodaine , and momentany minsters , whiche are so made . And albeit that some differred their baptisme , longe after their conuersion , and in deede to the time off deathe : yet yow doo not shewe / that Ambrose was in that ●●●ber . If he were / yow fasten therby greater ignorance vppon him / then I haue doone : who ( yow saie ) speake contemptuously off hym . Besydes it is one thing not to be baptized , and another thinge to be catechumenus . For those whiche were not baptized / beinge sufficiently instructed / were admitted to the supper off the lorde : but in that yt is saide / Ambrose was Cathecumenus , Socrat. 4. lib. 30. is declared / that he was not yet sufficiently instructed / in the principles of religion . Whatsoeuer yt is / I saie yt coulde not be withowte great disorder / that a man shoulde be chosen gouernour off the cytie / whiche had neuer tasted off the water theroff . I knowe Ambrose was a notable man / and learned in humaine knowledge : yet I mighte withowte either greate disgrace / or any contempte / saie that whiche I saide . And yf this were the place for it : I coulde easely shewe vppon howe good grownde I saide / that it had bene safer for the churche , he had bene better instructed in the scriptures , before he occupied the place off Doctor . Whereunto I coulde vse his owne testimonie / whiche saithe / 1. lib. offi. . that he was constrained to teache / that whiche he himselffe had not learned .

Albeit he is constrained / to agree to that whiche is affirmed : Diui. 5. p : 147. Cyp. 1. li. Epist. 7. yet for the great desire he hathe / to strike at me / he woulde wreste this epistle owte of my handes / then the whiche there can be nothinge more plaine . For Cyprian / reasonethe againste Fortunatius chalenge off his bishoppricke / after that he had fallen to Idolatrie : by the generall rule / that none owghte to be admitted vnto the ministrie / whiche had so fallen . And therfore almoste in the beginninge off the Epistle / he chargeth him that he dare chalenge vnto him the ministerie , whiche he hathe betraied : as thowgh yt were lawfull after hauing bene at the alter off the deuil , to come vnto the alter of god . And after he had shewed the horrible punishementes / that the lorde God willed they should be punished with / that faulted that waies : he addeth / Seing therfore the lorde threateneth suche tormentes , and punishementes in the daie off his wrathe , to suche as obey the diuel , and sacrifice to idoles : howe can he thinke , that he maie doo the office off the minister off God , whiche hathe obeied , and serued the prie stes off the diuel ? or howe dothe he thinke , that his hande can be translated to the sacrifice , and praier off the lorde : whiche was captiue to sacriledge , and to suche a crime ? Off thes wordes and diuers other in that epistle / yt is euidente / that he dothe not therfore seclude Fortunat. onely / becawse he did not repente : but becawse yt was not lawfull / for those that had sacrificed / &c. to be restored vnto their mynisterie . And therfore he purge the hym selfe / and his fellowes in an other place / off that he was supposed to 4. l. 2. ep. haue receiued Trophimus to the ministrie / and otherwise then a laye man : althoughe yt be there declared / that Trophimus did submitte him selfe in all humilitie / vnto the churche .

Wherfore hathe he browghte in here / that there was certaine tyme off repentance appointed in Cyprians time , &c. doothe anye bodie denie yt ? or maketh yt any thinge to his purpose ? That whiche he he shoulde haue proued / he to wchethe not . For againste that he saide / Off the examples off the primatiue churche , in restoringe off those vnto their mynisterie , whiche had fallen vnto Idolatrie : I haue shewed the vse off the moste ancientest tymes / and he bringeth nothinge at all / but onely affirmeth those thinges / which no man deniethe / and make nothing to the purpose .

The councell off Carthage ( whiche ordeined that none mighte be receiued againe to the ministerie / which had defyled him selfe with Idolatrie ) is here reiected : the reason whereoff is also added / for that the same Concell decreed , rebaptizing off those whiche were baptized by Heretikes : The Ans. maye throwe awaye the authoritie off a councell / because of an error in yt / withowte either scripture / Doctor / or councell : when I doo yt / not withowte either all thes authorities / or at the leste / off the scripture : yt is cried owte againste / as an vnlearned shifte , and I can not tell what . But I am contented yow shall throwe a waie the councell off Carthage / which established that error : yet yow shall not throwe awaie that / wherin it was agreed / againste restoring off ministers / fallen into Idolatrie . How so ? Because they were decreed in seuerall councels . For profe theroff / I alledge the wordes off Cyprian . And when there be other boothe many / and greuous faultes / where withe 1. li. E. 4. Basilides / and Marshal are inwrapped : such doo in vaine goo abowte / to occupie the place off a bishoppe . Seing yt is manifeste / that suche men may not gouerne the churche off Christe / nor offer vp sacrifices vnto God . Especially when off late / boothe withe vs / and with all the bishoppes in the worlde / euen Cornelius also / our fellow in ministerie peacable / and iuste / and whom the lorde vouchesafed the honor off a Martyr / decreed / that suche men mighte be admitted to repentance / but shoulde notwithstanding be kepte from the honor of the clergy / or ministrie . Of this place I conclude / that forsomuche as the Councell of Carthage / was prouinciall / as that whiche was gathered off the bishoppes off Africke / Mauritania / and Numidia / and this generall / as that whiche was assembled of all the bishops of the worlde : that the councell wherin this was determined / is not the same whiche determined rebaptization . Againe at this councell Cornelius was / and gaue his consente : at the other he was not / neither woulde euer giue his consente . And so also is answered / that whiche yow cite owte of the seconde booke off Cyprian / and firste epistle / that for so muche as / the councell that there is spoken off / was in Stephanus time / the bishoppe off Rome : it can be by no means vnderstanded off this councel / that decreed againste the restitution of the ministers whiche had fallen / whiche was holden before his time . Therfore the councell there spoken of / was but a conference of bishops / or minsters whiche were nere vnto that place / where Cyprian remained . For if it had bene anye solemne councell / Cypr. woulde not firste haue holden that / and then after they had decreed off matters in consultation ( as yt appeareth in that epistle they had ) conferred withe him by letters . And if he shoulde : yet yt dothe manifestly appeare / by that whiche I haue alledged / that this was decreed longe before . I will therfore waite / what aduise yow will take / to answer to this Councell : which was bothe catholike / and generall / and more aunciente then that off Nice : puttinge yow also in remembrance / what a greate extoller off councels yow be / when they make any thinge for yow .

None of the places whiche they alledged / declare anysuche meaninge : and the place quoted owte off Eze. manifestly declareth / that they mente of those whiche had fallen from the trewthe . Besides Diu. 6. p. 148. that al men maie see / that yow browght thes examples of M. Luth. &c. to proue that ministers which had fallen into Idolatrie / might be restored vnto the ministerie . And where they speake off kinge Henries preistes / kinge Edwardes / &c. Yt is apparente / that they mente not to seclude them / for that they were kinge Henries preistes : but because they were kinge Henries / and Queene Maries preistes bothe / seing they also shutte forthe / kinge Edwardes preistes / which by no means they can be suspected to haue doone / vnles they had mente off those / which beinge ministers then / were preistes also in Queene Maries tymes . Yf They had saide thus simplie / all indifferent iudgemente muste needes so haue expounded them : but when they expounde them selues so plainly / in these wordes / men for all seasons : I mighte well saie / as I haue saide / what hathe so blyn̄ded your eyes , &c.

For his iudgemente off certeine preachers nowe , massmongers in Queen Maries times , comparable with any in the lande : I leue to speake of it . For seinge he hathe a seuerall diuinitie from others / he muste be suffred also to frame his iudgemente therafter . The sclanderous vntrwthes / that are here vttered / I will not defile my penne withe . Off the places off Deuter. and Ezechiel I haue spoken . Howe the iudiciall lawe / is in the powre off the magistrate / is declared / and here was no place to speake off it . Forasmuche as the question is here / off the discipline off the churche / and not off ciuill punishmentes : and whether the churche owghte to admit a minister / that hathe fallen vnto Idolatrie . The nexte section / I leue to the iudgemente off the reader . The nexte vnto that / is answered before in the first tract . and 6. chap.

Yt was a greate parte off Alexanders commendation / that Diuis. 9. pa. 151. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Plutar. in his liffe . he was fearce in fight / and gentle in victorie . The D. is cleane contrary . For a lam is not so meek / and so tame as he is in his disputation / and reasoning : but in his triumphes / althowghe false / and imagined / there is nothing more fearce . To beare oute all this storme off wordes / prophane Philosopher , and druncken poete , &c. There is not so muche as one Philosopher / prophane / or diuine / one Poete / sober / or druncken / to improue that the gentils , did neuer take oxen , serpentes , fire , water , &c , to be god : or , that they toke the Images before whiche they fell , for wood , stone , &c. Yff I shoulde alledge all the places owte off them / which mighte be browghte to the confirmacion off that / whiche I set downe : yt were muche more easier to fynde a begynninge / then an ende . Howbeit / because off the shamefull / and foreheadles deali●ge off the D. off an infinite number / I will alledge one / or two : Wherby it maie appeare / what opinion was off these thinges / amongeste the gentils .

And to beginne withe Philosophers / it can not be vnknowen to those whiche are learned / that amongeste others / Plato / and his secte / approched neereste / to the trew knowledge off god . Epist. ad Herm. In Epin . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Viues ex Numen . Philoso . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . De leg & rep louis omnia plena And albeit he confessethe in diuers places one God / by whome the world was ruled / yea and makethe mention / off the father / and off the sonne / whiche he calleth the moste deuine worde / and hathe many other thinges / consonante vnto that whiche Moses writethe / in suche sorte / that he was called off some / Moses speakinge in the moste pureste manner off the Grecians : Albeit I saie / this Philosopher did well knowe / that there was but one God whiche made heauen / and earthe : yet he taught / that diuers spirites / and men also whiche had bene famous vppon earthe / shoulde be worshipped .

For the Poetes / the saying of Virgill / all are full off Iupiter : maie declare / that the honour / and seruice which the Gentills did to the Images / bestes / and other creaturs whiche they worshipped / was for an opinion that they had / off the presence off Iupiter in ●hose thinges / and not for the thinges them selues . and there wanted not diuers amongeste them / whiche saide / there was but one God / whiche they called Iupiter / and that Appollo / Venus / Diana / &c. Were but vertues / or partes of Iupiter / so that in those they worshipped Iupiter . And althowghe the Egyptians / were comparable in grossnes off Idolatrie / withe any nation : Yet Isocrates thus writeth off their manner off worshipp . He appoincted off all sortes off diuine worship , o● exercise vnto In Bousiris . them , and made a lawe for the worshippinge off beastes , despised amongeste vs : not that he was ignorante off their powre / but because he woulde accustome the people / to the obedience off those thinges whiche were commanded by their princes : and withall / meaninge thereby to take a profe / how they were affected towardes the inuisible thinge / by thinges visible . Here yow heare the Philosophers / the Poctes / the Orators ( whiche were the Prophetes off the gentils ) : yet none ascribethe vnto them suche a dotage / as to thincke a peece off wood / &c. to be God .

And iff this knowledge were in the grosseste Idolaters : howe can suche ignorance haue been in the Israelites / as he imaginethe ? But I had forgotten the boye off the grammer scoole , whom he appointethe for my scoolemaister in this matter : wheras if euer he toke heede vnto the firste verse off Cato / he muste needes giue Si Deus est animus , &c. witnesse of our side / that the gentils toke God for a spirite / and not for a peece off wood / &c.

And this that is here spoken / off sondrie off the Idolatrous Gentils / S. Paule pronouncethe off them all / where he goinge abowte to proue / that all the nations were shut vnder condemnation : Rom. 1. saithe / that they knewe God by his creatures , but did not glorifie him as God . This opininion the Gentile had of one God / Iustine martyr prouethe / by that whensoeuer they entred into any earneste consyderation off God / they were wonte to name De Monarc . one God onely . And that they imagined their Godds to be in heauen / besides that yt is easie to gather off their gestures / in holdinge vp their handes / and castinge vp their eyes vnto heauen / as ofte as they felte them selfes in any daunger : may likewise appeare / where the Idolaters of Listra / and Derbe conceiuing off Barnabas / and Paule as off Goddes : to mainteine that error off theirs / are driuen to saie / that they were cum downe from heauen : declaringe therby / Act. 14. that the receiued opinion off them was : that the ordinarie Goddes / were in heauen . For yt is not to be dowted / but they had the images of Iupiter / and Mercurie whiche they worshipped in that place : and yet they did not take them for their Goddes / but Imagined that the Goddes wherof those were the Images / were in heauen .

Nowe this that euery dronken poete , and boy , &c. can tell to be otherwise , let vs see whether graue / learned / sober / and anciente diuines / doo not plainely confirme . Augustine ( which is here alledged / to proue that the gentils did take the verie images them selues to be Vpon the 215. Psal. ● part . their goddes ) shewethe that the verie vulgare / and grossest sort of Idolaters / coulde answere when they were rebuked of their Idolatry / and heathenishe worship : that they worshipped not the visible image , but that which dwelt inuisibly in it . and that they off the finer sort answered / that they neither worshipped the image , nor any spirite in the image , but by that bodelie image did beholde the signe off that thinge , which they owght to worship . M. Caluin ( answeringe vnto the Papistes obiection / 1. l. Ins. 11. c. s. 9. that their images are not taken for goddes ) saith thus . Nether were the Iewes ( saith he ) so vnwise , that they did not remember that it was God , by whose hande they were browght owte off Aegypte , before theye made the calfe : yea vnto Aaron sainge , that those were their goddes which browghte them owte of Aegypte , they did withowte staggeringe consente , gyuinge therby to vnderstande assuredly , that they woulde kepe still the same God for their deliuerer , so that they mighte see him goo before them in the calfe . Nether is it to be thowghte that the Gentils were so blockishe , that they did not vnderstande that God was some other thinge , then wood , or stone . For they changed their images oftentimes , and yet kept the same goddes still in there mynde : and their were many Images set vpp to one God , neither did they therfore according to that multitude , imagine many Goddes . Besydes that daily they consecrated newe Images . and yet they thowghte not therfore that they made newe Goddes . And towardes the ende off that section he writethe thus : Notwithstandinge boothe the Iewes were Perswaded , that vnder suche Images they worshipped the eternall god , the one , trewe lorde off heauen and earthe : and the Gentils also that by them they worshipped their goddes althowghe false , yet whiche they imagined to haue their abode in heauen . And in the beginninge off the tenth section : Those whiche denie , that this was doone in tymes paste , and is doon in our age , lye impudentlie . And towardes the latter ende off that section / vnto the Papistes obiecting that they doo not call the images their godds / he answerethe : Neither did either the Iewes , or Gentils so in times paste , and yet the Prophetes in euery place did not cease to caste in theyr teathe fornication with wood , and stone : onely for the things , whiche are dayly doone of those , which wil be counted Christians , that is to saie , for that they worshipped God carnally in wood , and stone . Nowe take awaie that which yow haue partly in your glose / and partly in your texte / moste vntrewly surmised : and shew me one worde in all this section / whiche yow haue made such horrible owtecries off / that Maister Caluin doothe not speake more fullie / then I.

For where in your glosse / vpon my wordes / And who knoweth not that they thowghte that by them , and in them , they worshipped the God whiche made heauen , and earthe , yow note in the mergente a grosse error , making me to affirme that all the Gentills beleued , that God made heauen , and earthe : yow change not your skin / stil yow seeke aduantage by falshoode . For tell me are thes all one / they thowghte they worshipped God , whiche made heauen , and earthe , and they / they thowghte that God made heauen and earthe ? When it is saide / that the Papistes thinke they swallowe Christe / whiche onelie sittethe at the righte hande off God : Fallac : compos : doth one affirme / that the Papistes thinke / that Christe sittethe onelie at the righte hande off God ? For when there are two propositions there : Wheroff the one is / that the Gentills thowght they worshipped God / the other / that that God made heauen / and earthe : the Answ. woulde make them as one . But what a veration off spirite is it / to haue to doo withe one / which either knoweth not what the valewe off a proposition is : or els knowinge / doothe so shamfully wrest yt ?

Yet the other which he ascribethe vnto me in his texte / is yet farther from honest dealinge . For he askethe me / whether iupiter , Apollo &c. were goddes whiche created heauen , and earthe : as if I had giuen any occasion of that question . He addethe / and asketh / whether they were thowght to haue made heauen , and earthe ? To whom I haue answered before / that the wordes importe no suche thinge : neither had I either in that proposition / or in any before / made mention off Iupiter / or Appollo / &c. And if I shoulde answere / that Iupiter was thowghte off some / abused by fables of the Poetes / to haue made heauen / and earthe : What woulde folowe therof ? I saie therfore againe / that take awaye your vntrew additions : and there is nothinge set downe off me / which Maister Caluin dothe not precisely affirme . And that which I haue set downe owte off Expos. 1. commaund . tit. Against . the worshipp off dead sainctes . Maister Caluin / I coulde recite as fully / and as plainly owte off Maister Musculus / which I omite .

For your places which yow haue heaped together here / I knowe them wel / and had them before me when I wrote . Yow gyue me them in grosse / withowte applyinge : yow either coulde frame no argumente of them / or feared the answer . I can not examin all those chapit . which yow giue me / oneles I woulde write a whole booke off that matter onelie . Yow take vp the Adm. becawse they applie not their scripturs / and frame not their argumentes : yet they let not yow wander in the whole chapiter / but gaue one verse to speake vnto . I muste also admonishe yow to beare more reuerence vnto the scripture , then to confounde yt with Baruche , and especially with the storie off Bell , and the Dracon : if yow will not be admonished / I will desyre the reader to take heede off suche confusion : there being as much difference betwene the one and the other / as betwene heauen and earthe / God and man .

Why ? is this the profe yow promise in your glose / wherby yow saide / yt shoulde appeare to be vntrewe that I alledged ? Those greate wordes made me hope after some stronge reasons / yff we will folowe hym here / he will leade vs the ready waie to the popishe transubstantiation . For he stickethe in the very worde / and will admit no sacramental speache / and therfore where the arke is called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . the lorde off hostes , the kinge off glorie : in his diuinitie / yt muste needes be taken so in deede / that the arke made off woode is Psal. 24. very God . For in the wordes off the texte it is expressly signified . And euen as that is / so is this a sacramentall speache : wherby they hauing the goulden calfe for a token / and signe of the presence of god / Exod. 32. called yt by the name off God . now hauing no reason but off the papistes onely / to warante this opinion : off his accustomed lyberalitie / in giuing that whiche he can not holde / he admitteth for soothe that yt is metonimically spoken yet after that by force off the trewthe / yt is writhen from him : he reachethe owte his hande after yt / saying / that yt is but a coniecture . yt is a certeine trewthe M. W. and no coniecture : standinge not vppon the iudgemente off men / whiche I coulde alledge of diuers lerned / that haue written of that place : but vpon vnfailible reasons / wheroff that is one which I haue alledged / off the vsuall phrase off the scripture / in speaking of signes . And iff it had beene lawfull for them / to haue likened the maiestie off God vnto a calfe / or to haue had suche a token off the presence off God : it had not bene vnlawfull / to haue called yt Sacramentally / by the name off God .

Moreouer forasmuche as the knowledge off God / is a habyte whiche god gyuethe by lytle and lytle / throwghe teachinge / yt is impossible / that the Israelites so well instructed / and hauing gyuen also good experience before / that they knewe the trewe God : shoulde so sodenly / at one instante / so many / leese all that knowledge off God / and take a calfe to be that / whiche browghte them owte off the lande of Aegypte : but as yt cam by litell and litle / so it muste of necessitie haue a tyme / wherby it mighte by litle / and litle be loste . And hetherto is referred that which Maister Caluine alledgeth / off the consente off the people to that / whiche Aaron saide off kepinge holy daie vnto the lorde : wherby they declared that they helde that for good / whiche Aaron saide .

Further if the Israelites had taken the calfe for their God : Moses in gyuing them yt to drinke after he had beten it to powder / should haue driuen them to a greate synne / and haue killed their consciences / in compellinge them to drincke that / whiche they were perswaded to be a peece of the true God / which browghte them owte of Aegypte . Whiche thinge when no man of any knowledge can saie : yt is certeine that Moses did thinke / that the Israelites did knowe that the calfe was not the true God . Beside that albeit Aaron faulted greuously / yet it is great iniurie doone vnto him / to thinck that euer he woulde haue either cawsed / or consented / a calfe to be made : if he thowghte that the Israelites woulde haue taken that / for the true God . yea after they had vttered that voice / Thes are they Gods , &c : Yt is saide that Aaron seinge that / made an altar before the calfe : Whiche he woulde neuer haue doone / if he had vnderstanded the Israelites as the D. doothe .

I had not the texte before me / when I wrote / but I tooke the sense which I was well assured off . Seinge they bothe consented to Aaron saying / ye shall kepe holy day to the Lorde , Exod. 32. 6. and did so . Therfore allthowghe it be subiecte to the reprehension off a cauiller : yet I altered nothinge off the meaninge off the place / in that I set downe / that the Israelites saide , they would kepe holy day to the Lord.

I put yow ouer to the learned writers , and now I haue toulde yow off twoo / which doo in plaine wordes / whet their stiles directly againste yowr distinction . Yow mislike off the distinction , but yow are driuen to vse yt : yow excuse not the papistes , but yow lessen their cryme / and therfore yow may well be called their Patron . For yt is a precepte amongest the Rethoricians / that iff the clients fault be apparante : the aduocate shoulde confesse it / and then employe the strenghte off his witte / to cawse it seme as lytle as maie be . And where in the distinction of degrees off Idolatrie / yow saie / that the Iewes did oftentimes offende in the laste , and the worste , and the Papistes not yow in deede saie it / and saie it againe / but yow bringe nothinge to proue yt once . I coulde replie / that the Papistes vsed more detestable Idolatrie / then euer did the Iewes . For shewe me by any good authoritie / or reason / that the Iewes did euer thinke / or teache / that a deade Image off wood / and stone shoulde be worshipped with the honor off the holy trinitie : and this notwithstandinge ● . Coun. Nic. is tawghte off the Papistes . Or shewe me where euer the Iewes did worshippe / so vile a thinge / as a peece off breade : whiche receiued into the stomacke / is after caste into the priuie . And as yt can not be denied / but they take that breade for the verie God / whiche made heauen / and earthe : So I am perswaded that yt can neuer be shewed / that the Iewes were euer so grosse to beleue / that anie symple creature seen with their eies / was the liuinge God .

The Ans. bindethe well in the endè / withe his therfore yf they repente , &c. Wherfore ? because their Idolatrie is not so greate as that off the Iewes ? as if their mercie / whiche they receiue vppon repentance / depended vppon the smalnes / or greatnes off their Idolatrie : or as if the Iewes / which repented off their Idolatrie / receiued not mercie likewise . Verily I can see no bande / to tiethis therfore . with that whiche wente before . yt is a weffe / not worthe the takinge vpp . For what needed this nowe thrise at the leste / that they are not to be reiected owte off the churche ? as iff any denied that . but where yow add / nor owte off the ministerie : if yow mean off suche / as haue fallen from the gospell / and mynisterie especially / to Idolatrie : I can not beare yow / it is to heauy a conclusion for so weake premisses : for Maister D. is to muche abused / if he thincke that the same kaie / openeth the doore off the Ministerie / and the churche doore .

Where he snatcheth at the example of Aaron / who after that he fell / was receiued into the preisthood againe / which he did before in the example off S. Paule that I browghte forthe : he declareth what a hongrie cause he hathe / whiche is gladd to pull the meate oute off the fire / that yt fedethe on . But alas this helpethe not : for it is a singular example / and maie not be drawne into imitation . At which answer my thinke I see the D. buskell / and prepare him selfe to crowe / saying / that so all maie be wiped whatsoeuer is browghte . I will not doo therfore as yow / to whom yt is enowghe to saie withowte proofe : but will shewe the reason / whiche onles yow reste in / yowe shal haue the controuersie withe yowr selfe . yowr self affirme that the lawe in Ezech. and in the booke of the kinges , towchinge the not admittinge of the Leuites to the ministerie , is a iudiciall lawe of Moses , and gyuen to the Israelites onely : whiche if yt be trewe / yt being generall / muste needes comprehend the faulte off Aaron . And therfore yt followeth / that the admittance off Aaron to his ministerie againe / beinge directly contrarie to the lawe / was by an especiall dispensation .

Moreouer / Aaron beinge appointed to the ministerie immediatlie / and by the expresse mouthe off God : I see not what man coulde put him owte off yt withowte the same authoritie whiche put him in . Laste off all / it is verie probable / that where yt is Deut. 9. 20. saide in an other place / that Moses stood vp / and praied for Aaron : then Moses receiued answere / what shoulde be doone withe Aaron / towchinge his continuance in the ministerie . Where yowr glosse in the ende supposeth contrarietie , seinge yt settethe downe none . I haue not to answere . yt may be the A. lawghed when he wrote that / wherby he requireth sincere dealing in the scriptures . For if this be sitting in his mouthe / which corrupteth in a manner all he toucheth : why should not also a light housewiffe / talke of the chastitie off a graue matrone . The nexte diuis . belonging vnto the 6. Tract. off vnpreaching ministers / shall there God willing be answered .

Off election off Ministers / vn voices / or other consente off the people Chap. 4. pag. 155.

IF Chrysostome had had anie thinge to saie towching the election off Deacons : he shoulde haue spoken when tyme was / and when that place was handled . Yet for answere / the reader maye vnderstand / that Chrysost. in that place makethe comparison / betwen the election in the firste off the Actes / and this : and sheweth howe the Apostels did otherwise there / then here . For there they chose two / whiche they set vpp before the churche . So that when Chrysost. saithe / the Apostels myght haue chosen the deacons : yt may be he meaneth they might haue chosen them / as they did the two / Mathias / and Barsabas : In whiche choise I haue shewed / the consente off the people was required . Yff vpon Act , 1 there were but this place / whiche the D. citeth / I woulde stande vpon this answer : but considering that Chrys. in another place / affirmeth that Peter might haue chosen him selfe ( which I would not kepe from the knowledge off the reader ) I will not denie but that Chrysost. might haue heere the meaning the D. supposeth . Wherto as I can by no meanes agree / vpon the reasons both before / and after alledged so the D. is not helped . For when Chryso . commendeth Peter that he did all thinges by the aduise off the churche , nothing off his owne autoritie , nothing with dominion : When he addeth also that the same was to auoide contention , vp . Act. 1. vp . Act. 6 and that nether he nor the reste off the Apostles should be thowght to chuse off fauour : he declareth sufficiently that there is no bishop of that ether authoritie / or holines off life / which in making the election without consente of the church / dooth not bothe laie him selfe / and his ministery open to suspicion of parcialitle : and giue occasion off pernicious debates in the churche .

He shoulde also vnderstande / that this proportion is vneuen / and that if yt were granted whiche he desyrethe : yet he is not where he woulde be . For iff it were lawfull / for the Apostels indued with extraordinarie giftes off discretion off spirites / to chuse : yt foloweth not therfore that one Bishopp may doo so . And because yt was lawfull for the 12. Apostels / to chuse them withe whome they were dailie conuersante : therfore it is lawfull for one bishoppe to chuse those / whiche he neuer see / nor knewe before ?

Before I goo any further / yt is to be obserued / that althowghe 2. Diu. p. 156. the Ans. holde owte in the defense off this cawse / off election by the Bishope / certeine wordes of learned men / racked from their meaninge / and contrarie to the continual practise off the authors : yet the trwthe is / that as this assertion is the Papistes / and Papistes againste the Protestantes : so all his principall bothe argumentes / and solutions haue bene worde for worde / ministred vnto him owte off the bokes / off the ranckeste enemyes off the trwthe . Phigius li. 2. Hier. c. 2. 9. Phigius 5 li. Hierar . Phigius countro . 16. Hosius de legit . iud. rerum Eccles. Phigius l. 5. Hierar . Ecclesias . cap. 9. Diu. 2. p. 156. Yff the reader will see this question diducted at large / betwene the catholikes / and the papistes : let hym reade Hosius / and Phigius / in thes bokes which I haue noted . I will onely note the places whence the Ans. argumentes are fetched / with his startinge holes wherwithe he woulde abuse the worlde . And firste off all Marsilius a Catholike / whome the lorde had stirred vpp to mainteine the trwthe off the Gospell / Aboute the time off Pope Iohn the 12. disputinge againste the sole election off the bishope : vsethe this reason whiche wee haue heere in hande / namelie / that forasmuche as the churche chose here Deacons / as it appearethe in the Actes : therfore yt owghte muche more chuse her mynisters . This reason Phigius ( as the D ) derideth : no more hable to answer yt then he .

The manifeste wordes off the texte are / that Paule / and Barnabas ordeined elders by voces / neither is there any learned , and godlie man browghte / or as Iam perswaded can be browghte / that euer denied that the churches were in election off their ministers / ioyned with Paul / and Barn. That Zuingl . saithe / some were called to the ministerie off the worde , by the Apostels onely : what is yt to proue / that Paule / and Barnabas did here in this place ordeine myinisters / withowte the voices off the churche ? yt is well therfore M Zuing. hath expressed / whiche the D. hathe vnfaithfully holden backe : who translatinge whole pages to no purpose / coulde not here aforde vs one poore sentence / off the lengthe off two lines . The other halfe off the sentence is this : As ( saithe he ) when Act. 8. 14. by the decree off the Apostels , Peter and Iohn were sente vnto Samaria .

Marcke I beseche yow / what manner of election this was . The Apostels chose two / but suche as were approued mynisters before : what is this to proue / that the byshope maie chuse those / whiche were neuer approued / or chosen vnto the ministrie ? The Apostels chose them to goe an embassage / whiche shoulde be ended in a fewe daies : and what is that to proue / that a bishoppe maie chuse to a perpetuall function ? The Apostels did yt withowte the consente off that churche / vnto whiche that matter did not belonge : what is that to proue / that the bishope maie chuse a minister / withowte the consente off that churche / whiche that election dothe concerne ? for that election belonged not / vnto the churche of Ierusalem where they were : if yt had there is no doubte but the Apostels woulde not haue doon yt / withowte the consente therof .

I leue here to speake of the difference of bishop / and Apostel / off twelue / and one : whiche beinge obserued in the former section / needeth no rehersall . And as this maketh nothinge for the election off the bishope : so yt maketh against that / for the whiche this place is browghte . For iff maister Zuing. had bene off that iudgemente / that Paule / and Barnabas did by them selues chuse / withowte the churche : he woulde likely haue browghte that example / consideringe that this can not be properly called any election to the Mynistrie / whiche was off those which were ministers before .

But that yow may yet better knowe the D. vnfaithfull dealinge / ioined with shameles bouldnes off alledging authoritice : I will set downe Maister Zwinglius iudgemente in this cause / which he vttereth in diuers places off that booke / owte off whiche the D. hathe alledged this : but most manifestly / within les then a dowsen lines of the place / from whence he rente this . Hauinge inueighed againste the Popishe election / bothe for that in yt one bishoppe hathe all the powre / and for the vnworthines off those which were chosen : he addethe / yt semethe therfore , that there ys nothinge so agreable to the ordinance off god , and to Zuingl . in Eccle. the oulde institution , as that all the whole church off the faithfull amongeste a people , together withe certaine learned , and godlie bishopes , ad other faithful men hauinge skill in thinges , shoulde choose a pastor . and a lytle after / Let therfore thes prowde bishops , and folish Abbats goo shake their eares , for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election , shoulde be in the powre off the churche off the faithfull , instructed by the counsels off learned men . for as that matter owghte not to be in the powre of one : so owghte not the rude , and vnlearned multitude , chalenge vnto yt selfe alone , so great weighte off the election , &c.

Let vs nowe see whether the Ans. be anie faithfuller in alledginge Maister Bullinger . Firste who denieth / that Paule / and Barnabas did chuse elders / and ministers there ? When we gyue vnto them the gouernmente / and direction off the action / there is no reasonable man can Imagin / that we shut them owte off the election . But iff yow thinke / that because maister Bullinger saithe / they chose , therfore he affirmethe / that they chose alone / and withowte the churche : thes wordes can by no means proue yt / his iudgemente in other places quite ouerthroweth yt . heare therfore what M. Bull. writeth : Those whiche thincke ( meaninge In the 4. Serm. off off the 5. decade , Tit. 1 , 1 , Tim , 5. the papistes ) that the bishops , and Archbishop haue powre to make ministers vse thes places of the scripture , Therfore I lefte the at Crete , that thow mighteste appointe elders towne by towne : and againe , take heede thow laye not thy handes rashely of any : but we answer , that the Apostels did not vse anie tyrannie in the churches , nor to haue them selues alone , doone these thinges whiche perteined ether to the election , or ordination , other men in the churche shut owte . For the Apostels , and elders did create bishops , and elders in the church : but communicatinge their counsaile withe the churches , yea and withe the consente and approuing off the people : whiche dothe appeare plainly , by the election , and ordination off Mathias , &c. And there citinge howe Moses did communicate the choise off the magistrates withe the people . he addeth / And so no dowbte did blessed Titus , althowghe he had hearde thow shalte appoincte elders in Creta : yet vnderstood , that nothinge was permitted hym to doo priuatly , withowte the aduise off the church .

And because this place is cited also / to proue that Maister Bullinger shoulde thinke / that the Election 14. Actes / shoulde be made by Barnabas / and Paule : let the Doctor heare what maister Bullinger writethe in the page before / sayinge / That the lorde from the beginninge gaue authoritie to the churche , to chuse , and ordeine fit ministers , hathe been shewed before in the second sermone off this decade , by the example off the moste eldeste churches in the worlde Ierusalem , and Antioche : wheroff the one did not onely ordeine seuen Deacons , but also Matthias the Apostle , the other did set aparte to the ministrie , the twoo notable Apostels off Christe Paule and Barnabas : wherunto is added , that the churches off the gentills beinge instructed , or directed off Paule , and Barnabas , did chuse by voices elders , or gouernours off the churche . Where also he quoteth the same place off the Actes / whiche is here in question . Thes was I constrained good reader to set downe / that thow mighteste vnderstande / that the weapons wherwithe the D. fightethe againste this cawse / are not ( as he falsly pretendeth ) drawne from the Iosu. 5. 3. Deut. 1. 15 Act 15. 22 & 16. 4. godly writers / but ministred vnto him by some owte off the armorie off the papistes / whose they onely be . The places whiche I alledged / proue firste that yt is vsuall in the scripture / to ascribe that to the principall in an action / whiche is commen to them withe other : then that althowghe S. Luke / had made no mention off the election off the churche / but onely saide / that Barnabas / and Paule chose : yet therby coulde not be concluded / that the churche had no intereste in the election / but onely this / that Paule / and Barnabas were the cheife in that action . Yff that be ascribed vnto Iosue / whiche he procured onely / and layed no hand vnto : howe much more maie yt be ascribed vnto Paul / and Barn. whiche they bothe procured / and had some doinge in ? and therfore that example of al is moste apte / for that wherfore it is alleadged . I perceiue there is nothinge so cleare / whiche the D. will not essaie to darcken : seing he saith / that yt rather appeareth , that the people permitted the election off those gouernours , to Moses . The contrarie wheroff manifestly appearethe . for after that in the 9. verse / Moses had bydd them chuse gouernours : in the nexte verse he saithe / that the people accepted that commaundmente / and thowght off yt as a thinge equall . Therfore it is moste vntrwe / that they retourned yt into Moyses handes againe : for then they woulde haue answered / that yt was not meete for hym / to committe the election vnto them / but rather for the wisdome wherin he excelled / to doo yt him selfe .

And where the D. reasoneth off the 15. verse / vpon the wordes I toke , &c. that phrase dothe rather ouerthrowe his purpose / then confirme yt : for it semethe to haue a relation / to the gyuinge / and presentinge of those whiche they they had chosen . And the very same Phrase is vsed afterwardes in the 23. vers. of the spies whiche were sente to spie the lande : which notwithstandinge were not onely sente off Moyses / but off the people also / as appeareth in the 22. verse / and in the booke off numbers : where the lorde doothe not 13. Num. vers. 3. onely attribute / this sendinge off spies / vnto Moises : but vnto the people . Moyses gaue no further authoritie vnto them : then they whiche in ecclesiasticall elections / ordeine those whiche were chosen before / and confirme the elections whiche are made . Therfore as those ordinations exclude not the authoritie off election : so this confirmation off Moyses / did not deuoure that powre off election / whiche he had gyued them : but theyr elections / and his confirmation / made vp a full creation of those gouernours . Towchinge the false accusation off pushing at the magistrate / I haue answered .

Those verses off the 22. and 23. off the 25. Actes whiche yow alledge / shewe who bore the swate / in the makinge of that decree : But yet in that the letters were written in the churches / and not onely in the Apostels / and Elders names : and for that the decree ver. 23. ver. 25. is ascribed vnto them / by whome the letters are subscribed : yt is manifeste / that that consente / and subscription off the people / occupied some rowme in that decree . Nether is that alledged owte of M. Calu. any thinge againste that I saied / that the people had to doo in yt / and gaue consent : but giueth asmuch to the church as I / in saying / the churche committed the matter vnto the decision of the Apostels , and Doctors : as thowghe it belonged vnto the churche / and the churche / had put yt ouer vnto them . Yt is enoughe for me / that the churches subscription was there / and that not for a cyphre . Therfore althowghe S. Luke / for shortnes sake did call yt the decree off the Apostels / and Elders : yet S. Paule whiche gaue them to the churches / and whiche in other places standeth so muche vppon the authoritie off the churches / to stoppe the mowthe off the contentious : did not ( by all likelihood ) omyt the authoritie off the churche / to gyue them the more grace withe the churches / vnto the whiche he delyuered them .

The Ans. whiche will proue nothinge him selfe / but off whome wee muste take all moste althinges at his bare worde / hathe notwithstandinge a great grace in settinge me to proue all thinges / Institut. li. 4. ca. 3. s . 15. The former decade . Liuy 2. lib. ab vrbe . Liu. 3. li. ab vrbe . Diui. 3. p. 158. be they neuer so manifeste . Let him then vnderstande / that this whiche he requirethe profe off / is confirmed by the authoritie off maister Cal. and maister Bulling. The manner off speache also is in Liuy : where the consul is sayed to set vp an other consul / into the place off him whiche was dead : when he did yt not by his owne authoritie onely / but by voices off the Senate / and people .

Yf the Answ. coulde haue firste gyuen his reader a drinke off the riuer off forgetfulnes , to haue made him forgette what he owghte to proue / peraduenture this talke off his mighte haue some ende : but iff he carie in minde that he hathe to proue / that almoste al ecclesiasticall writers doo affirme , the word liftihg vp of handes to be vsed in the scriptures , for the solemne manner off ordeining ministers 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . by imposition off handes , and not for the election by voices : I say iff he cary this in minde / he shall perceiue easely / howe idle for the moste parte / this talke is . And verily all thes authorities here browghte / are either vaine : or directly againste him selffe : or in sufficient to proue that / whiche he vndertaketh . For to what pourpose are here alledged / two places owte off maister Caluin / two Canons gyuen to the Apostels / and the Testimonie off Ierome ? They proue that lftiing vp off handes , is taken in ecclesiasticall writers 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . for imposition off handes / whiche is confessed by me in plaine wordes : But to the perfourmance off your promise / that almoste all the ecclesiasticall writers affirme , that this worde is so taken in scripture : yet there is not one syllable . In this rancke also off idle testimonies / is that whole section off maister Gualter . For I confessed him to thincke / that the word was so taken : but yet so that withall / he ioyneth the election off the people by voices : Whiche the Answ. woulde by that signification off the worde / ouerthrowe . So that all thes browght in off the D. looke another waie / then he woulde haue them .

That the Canons attributed vnto the Apostels / make not to proue the sole election off a bishoppe / shall be discussed after : here it is onely sufficiente to haue shewed / that they make not to proue that whiche the Ans. alledged them for . Wherin I meruaile also what he meaneth / to aske leaue of me that yt may be as lawfull for him to vse them , as it is for me : as if I had vsed them otherwise / then I owght . I neuer vsed them as the naturall canons of the Apostels / I haue shewed that they are not / nor can not be theirs : but as the Canons off other Councels where amongest the bad / there are founde some good . And I neuer vsed them / but where I confirmed by Testimonie off the worde off God / that which I bringe them witnesse for . Therfore this phrase beinge vsed thrise / or fowre times / withowte all occasion : argueth hym to be a vaine trifler / whiche becawse he hathe nothing to answere / gyueth hym selfe the bridle to forge / and surmise all maner off vntrwthes . And where by this preface / yt semeth the man woulde haue stricken this matter / as dead as a dore naile : yet hauing leaue to vse them / he hathe not so muche as once come neere vnto the matter ▪ onely he hathe gained some fewe lines / to encrease his confused heape .

The next rancke is of those / whiche are not onely not profytable / but directly hurtefull vnto his cause . In whiche number is the witnes off Maister Bull. that worde which signifieth lifting vp of handes , is so placed that we may vnderstande , either that they were chosen by voice off the people , or ordeined by laying on off handes : especially if he had added the fowre next wordes / I thinke bothe were doone Wherby appearethe that Maister Bullingers opinion is / that bothe the churches chose by voices / and the Apostels laied on their handes / which directly ouerthrowethe the Answ. For his answer is suche / that onles the worde doo onely signifie there the ceremonie off imposition off handes / and not the election by voices : yt goethe to the grownd . therfore Maister Bulling. sayinge / that boothe were doone in this place : there coulde be no flatter testimonie againste hym / then yt .

And where he cyteth Maister Bullinger / that he is elected In 5. sect. 159. pag. by common suffrages off the People , whiche is chosen by the testimonie off the beste : I knowe good reader thow merueileste / not / that it comethe owte off tyme / for that is his ordenarie : but doest thow not meruaile / what misticall rethoricke hathe seperated so farr a sonder / this sentence from the other whiche he before alledged ? Leue to meruaile / there is no greate arte in it / but there In the same diuis. 2. se . p. 158 I thinck both were doon . is some crafte . For if thow gyue heed vnto him / yt may appeare yt was onely to couer the trechery whiche he vsed / in takinge bothe that whiche goethe before / and that whiche cometh after : leuing quite owte those wordes by me alledged / whiche stande in the myiddest off those two sentences / marringe his whole marcket . And becawse yt woulde haue to palpably appeared / if he had doone yt in one / and the same place : he makethe them to come as it were strangers owte off two seuerall countries / that dwell harde together .

For the sentence it selfe / what would he trowe yow conclude ? That the bishope muste haue the election ? yf it be not that / I knowe not wherfore yt is browghte . Yf he meane to vse yt therun to : then muste off necessitie Maister Bullinger speake thus / that he is elected by the common suffrages off the people / whiche is approued by the testimonie off the beste bishops . Doe yow lawghe at thes thinges / when the D. is in so good earneste ? Seinge he seeth that both the testimonie off the Scripture / and writers oulde / and newe ( Papistes onely excepted ) gyue intereste off election vnto the people : yet rather then yt shoulde fall from the bishopps / he maketh a metamorphosis / and change off the Bishoppes into the people . The meaninge off Maister Bullinger ( if any coulde be so ignorante as not to vnderstand ) is / that the faithfull onely haue intereste in the election off the churche : and that the Papistes haue not / nor owghte not to haue to doo in it / nether any other heretickes / and scismatickes from the churche . Whatsoeuer yt be / yt can be by no means drawne to preiudice the churches interest / whiche he dothe so plainly bothe here / and els where affirme .

And where yt is supposed / that the churche hathe leue to oppose againste him that is to be elected : I haue shewed howe manifeste mockerie yt is / off the churche off God . As for that whiche is saied off maister Bulling. and Maister Caluin iointly / that they haue affirmed off the signification off the worde as muche as he : yt is a manifeste vntrwthe . For maister Caluin neuer affirmed / that the scripture euer vsed that worde , to note the ceremonie off layinge on off handes . Off M. Bullinger yt hathe bene before spoken .

There followeth in this seconde rancke Oecunemius / whose testimonie is so flat againste the Ans. signification off the word lifting vp off handes , and therfore also againste the sole election off the bishoppe : as a clearer coulde not be required . His words be thes / yt is to be noted , that the disciples withe fastinge , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . praiers did make elections by voices . Nowe seinge by the worde disciples Saint Luke / and the Scoliast followinge him / continually throwghe the storie of the Actes / note the people whiche belieued : it is manifeste that the Scoliaste dothe both conclude vppon this place / that the people did chuse : and concludethe yt also of the worde / lifting vp off handes . Whether in attributinge the same worde vnto Paule / and Barnab . he meane therby the ceremonie off imposition off handes : I will not ( as in a thinge not worthe the trauaile ) stande . yt is enowghe for me to haue shewed / how this testimonie makethe directly againste that / whiche the Doctor affirmeth : that is to saie / that the worde lifting vpp off handes signifiethe in this place off the Actes / onely the ceremonie off layinge on off handes . For if it signifie bothe the election by voices / and the ceremonie off layinge on off hands : then our cawse standeth as sure / as if it onely signified the election by voices .

And to this testimonie off the Scoliaste agreeth the same Ignatius / Ad Philadelph . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . that the Ans. in his former boke maketh so greate accompte off : who writeth thus / yt is meet that yow as those whiche be the church off god , should chuse by voices yowr bishopp . Wherby not onely appeareth / that that author wil haue the churche chuse her minister : but also how this worde is vsed off him in the proper signification / to note the election whiche is made by voices . Chrysostome remaineth / which taking the worde for the imposition off handes / doothe not exclude the naturall signification . Brentius translating Chrysost. had folowed that sense I set downe : yf the D. can confute him by the greeke example / he is worthy off credite .

Let vs now see what the Ans. hath to say against those reasons / wherby I shew that S. Luke by lifting vp off handes , ment properly the election by voices . I may not ( saithe he ) teache the holie goste to speake : God forbid I should goe abowte yt . But shall not he whiche made the mouthe speake / and he whiche teacheth all other to speake properly / speake properly him selfe ? I doo not therfore teache the holy goste to speake , whiche applie his words to make them agree withe the thinges they signifie : but yowr opinion supposeth wante off knowledge off the tonge in the holy goste / whiche woulde haue hym signify layinge downe / by liftinge vp . And where yow saie I trifle , becawse he that laieth on his handes , muste firste lifte them vpp , or euer he can laie them on : who trifleth in this poincte let all iudge . For who dothe not vnderstande / that the name is vsually giuen off the principall / and nearest action wherwithe it is doon : and not off those actions whiche are farr off / accidentall / or for the cause / and sake off the principall . And yt is all on / as if a man should call the takinge off a knife into his hande / cuttinge off breade : because he that cutteth breade / muste before take the knife into his hande .

How be it / if there were the same manner off layinge on off handes in the primitiue churche / whiche is in poperie / and withe vs / where he that is chosen kneeleth on his knees / to receiue the bishopps layinge on off handes : yt is so farre from any neede to lifte vp his hand / or euer he can laie yt on : that onles he carie his handes verie vnmanerly / like a paire off hanging sleeues : he muste let them downe / or euer he can can laie them on the heade off him whiche is chosen . Therfore althowghe an other mighte vse this poore shifte : yet yow which haue vndertaken to defende whatsoeuer the bishops generallie doo in their elections / haue ( if I shoulde deale hardly with yow ) loste this aduantage .

Yt is nothinge with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the ould Testament / nor that S Paule / and Luke him selffe / vtter the layinge on off handes by other words . Thes are bare coniectures beinge alledged againste him : but ye shall heare by and by / where he hathe not halfe suche a reason / the greate bell goe with certeinly , and manifestly . Howbeit althowghe thes seem bare coniectures to him : yt muste needes haue weighte with those / that haue their senses well acquainted with the holy scripture . For they knowe that the writers off the newe testament / frame them selues vnto the manner off speache off the oulde / when they speake off the same thinges : and for the gentils sake whiche had knowledge off the translation of the seuentie interpreters / they kepe them so carefully to that : that sometimes they vse it / althowgh yt be not in euery poincte so iuste / and so answerable vnto the trewthe of the Hebrew / as mighte haue beene . Which thinge doone off all those especially / whiche laboured in the tillage off the gentills / amongeste whom S. Luke ( S. Paules Companion ) was : whosoeuer considereth muste nedes confesse / that this coniecture is not so bare as he maketh yt .

I aske yff any man can reasonably thinke / that in one and the same ceremonie / commen aswell vnto vs off the Newe Testament / as those off the oulde / Saint Luke woulde leaue bothe the maner of speache of the Hebrewes / and the wordes off the 70 interpreters : to take a straunge phrase from the one / and diuers wordes from the other ? or whether he woulde leaue the phrase / and wordes which the Iewes / and gentils were acquainted withe : to vse a phrase whiche the Iewes neuer harde of / and a worde whiche was in that signification / vnknowen vnto the Gentils ? off all whiche when there is no one / which hath not force to perswade this sentence : so the laste is suche / that yt leuethe no place vnto any resistance . For when the holy goste speaketh with the tonges off men / and to their vnderstandinge : if by this worde lifting vp off handes , he had signified a layinge on of handes : he coulde not haue beene vnderstanded / seinge that worde was of no suche signification in that tonge .

And where he saithe / I oppose my bare coniectures , to improue so many learned mennes iudgements : I haue shewed howe he hath ouer toulde . I haue no where reasoned againste yow / as if yow shoulde affirme that by that worde , the laying of on handes , shoulde be mente . Therfore if yow had spared that cauil / yow mighte haue bene cleare of two moe errors which yow are fallen into / by affirminge partly / that S. Luke by the worde lifting vp off handes , signifieth the whole solemnitie of creatinge ministers ( which can not be true / seinge he expresseth two other parts off yt / whiche are praier / and fastinge ) partly in affirminge / that he dothe in the wordes off laying on off handes all waies vnderstande , the bare layinge on off handes onely : when as in two off those places 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . 9. Act. 17. 19 Act. 6. 8. Act. 15. whiche I haue alledged / it maie appeare / that by those wordes is noted / not onely the puttinge on off handes : but also the praiers whiche were made / for the receiuinge off the giftes off the holie goste . Which thinge expressed in an other place to haue bene done by Peter / and Iohn / we must esteme obserued / at othertymes .

Yf I had not browghte the place off the Actes / the A. had 10. Act. 41. had nothinge to saie / to that I alledged of Saint Lukes borowinge this phrase / not off those which came many yeares after : but of those which were before . But seinge destitute off yowr owne / yow are entred vppon my possession / againste my will / and so also that yow will thruste me owte : let yt be sufficient / that yow haue eased yowr selfe heere a while . I saie therfore / that this place maketh againste yow / in that this worde in that place / signifieth not a layinge on off handes vppon the heades off the chosen : Luk. 6. 13. Math. 28. 19. but a chusinge by voices / consideringe that wee reade plainly / that he chose his Apostels by voice .

Let vs heare now how it maketh against vs . Firste becawse the word is not there taken , for liftinge vpp off handes : but for appoinctinge and ordeining . As who shoulde saie yt is not vsuall vnto the scripture / and to all speaches / by figure in one parte to note the whole : and therfore S. Luke by that one forme off election / passed by the céremonie off liftinge vp off handes / notethe this election whiche was made by voce / off our Sauiour Christe . yt maye be also applied vnto other elections / wherin by goinge from one syde to another / or by writinge his voice in a table / the consente off the chuser is vttered . So dothe the scripture by bondes / and chaine / 2. Tim. 1. 16. Act. 28. 16. & 30 : whiche are particular kindes off restrainte : note all manner off restraincte off libertie / althowghe a man haue nether bondes / nor chaines a bowte him . So that that which is so often saide in the gospel simply / off our Sauiour Christes chusing his Apostels : S. Luke did here in figure / not without greate grace vtter .

Where yow saie / that by this means yt signifieth not to ordeine by suffrages : in deede in this place yt can not / consideringe that our Sauiour Christe was but one . But where yow woulde conclude Act. 14. therof / that Paule , and Barnabas by their voices onely chose the ministers , and elders : Yt is further a sunder / then euer yow can sett together . heere yow muste be admonished / that where the moste off yowr witnesses did forsake yow before : yow beheere forsaken off them all . For there is neuer a one off the newe writers especially / named of vs bothe : but vppon that place off the Aces / hathe in plaine wordes approued the election by the churche .

Secondly the person off our Sauiour Christe whiche chose / with whome none mighte be ioined in commission / and the person off the Apostels / whiche coulde not be chosen of any but off God : did sufficientlie off them selues / withowte further addition / argue the sole election off our Sauiour Christe . But in the 14. Actes / seinge nether the Apostels whiche did chuse / were suche as mighte not be accompanied off the churche / nor the Mynisters that were chosen off suche degree / as mighte not likewise fall into the choise off the churche : and consideringe also that all the elections off the ministerie spoken off before / in whiche the Apostels had to doo / were by consente of the churche : yt is cleare that if S. Lukes meaninge had beene / to tye this election as streighte vnto Pau. and Barn. as the other to our Sau. Christe : he woulde haue put in wordes which mighte as clearly haue declared that meaninge in this / as the circumstances of the persons doo in the other .

Thirdly if this worde whiche notethe the choise by voices / shoulde be restreined vnto Paule / and Barnabas : then also the worde which declareth that they praied shoulde onelye be restreined 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . vnto them : for as that is gyuen vnto them / so is this . Nowe if it be absurde to saie / that in those publike praiers Paule / and Barnabas onely praied : yt is as absurde to saie / that they onely chose : and the same may be saide off fasting . For that which followethe 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 with fastinges , is all one as if he had saide / fasting , sauinge onely that S. Luke for elegancy sake / and to a voide the multitude of participles comminge so thicke / turned the verbe into the nowne . so that for so much as Paule / and Barnabas did not onely faste / but the churche also : yt muste followe that they chose not onely / but the churche with them . Therfore as S. Luke in saying that Paule / and Barnabas praied , and fasted , meaneth not that they praied and fasted onely / but that they wente before the reste / in gouerning those Ecclesiasticall actions : euen so in sayinge that they chose by voices , he meaneth not that they chose alone withowte the churche / but that they guyded / and directed the iudgementes off the churche . Laste off all / seinge that all the twelue Act. 1. Act. 6. to gether / woulde not enterprise to doo any thinge off their priuate autoritie / withowte consente of the churche : muche les can yt be thowghte / that Paule / and Barnab . woulde attempt yt .

Hereto make an end of this dispute / I will answer that which is brought off this word p. 163. And first I deny that euer I saide / that this word by it selfe , withowte ioininge any thinge vnto yt , signifieth election off many by voices . for yt can not signifie any thinge / vnles yt be ioyned with somethinge . These wordes ( off the churches ) althowghe they declare of whome the election was made : 2. Cor. 8. 19. yet they are not added to note the manner of the election / as the worde Act. 14. but to gyue credite vnto the embassadors / with the churches vnto which they wente / that they mighte safely committe their monie vnto them / for the behoufe of the churche off Ierusalem . Therfore it is nothinge yow alledge / that this addicion off the churches had bene needles , if the word liftinge vp off handes , had signified off it selffe an election by voices . For Sainte Paule shoulde not haue to the full / aduanced their credite with the churches : if he had giuen onely to vnderstande / that they were chosen by voices of many : considering that they were chosen / not only by the voices of many men : but by the voices off many churches . Wheruppon I conclude / that S. Luke Act. 14. vsed that word as the Grecians before him / for election by suffrages : and withal put him in minde / that his certein and manifest thinges , haue neither grownd to stand on / nor light to shew them by .

There are but two communities / one Anabaptisticall which Diuis. 4 , pag , 161 , maketh equalitie off all thinges / which is / and euer was vnlawfull ; the other Christian / which prouideth for neede of those / whiche haue not wherwith to finde them selues / which is / and owghte to be perpetuall / amongeste all Christians . Therfore yow can not escape with this circuit of wordes / for either that communitie in the Actes / was suche as owghte to be amongeste vs / whiche yow denie / and propounde as an absurde thinge : or els it was Anabaptisticall / which is blasphemous againste the spirite off God.

Althowghe men maie be good Christians withowte sellinge their landes , and distributings of the price off them vnto those whiche haue nede : yet they can not be good Christians / if for necessarie releife of the poore of the churche weroff they are / they be not contente to sell ( the neede so requirring ) euen their landes . And suche was the estate of the churche off Ierusalem / where there were so manie poore / and so fewe riche / that the wante of those whiche had not / with muche a doo was supplied by sale off landes / and howses off them / that had suche possessions . Which extreme pouertie maie easely be seene in other places / where not hable to be fournished of the riche of that churche / yt was faine to be supplied by diuers other . Vnto Act. 11 19 Rom. 15. 25. 2. Cor. 8. the reasons alledged owte off S. Paule / to proue that the same communitie is commaunded of him to all Christians : yowe answere not one worde . Vnto the whiche I will ad this / that I doubte not but that whiche was doone there / was so farre from oxtraordinarie doinge : that yt was doone by the commaundemente of God in the lawe / where the lorde chargeth the Israelites / that there shoulde be no beggers amongeste them For Saincte Luke Deutr. 15. 4. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 seemeth to haue alluded to that place / when he saithe / there was no needy amongeste them : which expresseth moste aptely / the Hebrew worde which Moises vsethe .

That which I browghte off Ananias , and Saphira , was to proue there was no suche communitie amongeste them as yowr answer supposed / and to glase vp the the windowes of Anabaptistry / which yow had opened . And surely if the anabaptistes had ( as they neither haue / nor can haue ) warrant of their communitie / by this example off the moste pureste / and ancientest church / and in deede then the onely church in the worlde / approued by all the Apostels replenished with the spirite off God : they shoulde haue stronger houlde then M. D. shoulde euer be hable to pull from them . I doo not thincke yow fauour the Anabaptistes communitie , but partly seduced off others / and partely overcaried with the violence off yowr affections : yow are vnawars fallen into that errer / wherby the Anabaptistes grownde it .

Where I saide / that all off the churche did not sell their possessions : I confesse the worde possession / was not so aduisedly put / seinge therby is properly signified howse / and lande / and those which wee call vnmouable goodes : whiche Saint Luke saithe were solde off as many as had them . But yet nothinge falleth of that for which I did alledged yt : and it is rather therby confirmed . For shewinge that all owners off howse / and land did sell them / and not that euery one which had other goods did the like : therby is gyuen to vnderstande / that not euery one which had monay / or other mouables / brought them vnto the Apostels .

The Adm. reason yow are not able to stir . For yf S. Paul. For auoiding suspicion in a monay matter , did communicate the election with Diui. 5. p. 163. 2. Co. 8. 19. the churches : why should he not to auoide suspicion , off percialitie / ambition / and tyranny / communicate with them the election off the ministers ? Surely he was as far from suspition off this couetous trechery with all men : as from suspition off these faultes . And so much farther / as such excellent wittes / and learninge as was in him / are easelier ouercome off those other vices / then off this pilferinge off monay : which the grosser / and vnlearned sorte for the moste parte offende in . Na why shoulde not S. Paule be in feare off this monay suspicion / if he had taken vpon hym the election off the ministers / shuttinge owte the churches ? Doo yow thincke that those which woulde haue doone hym that iniurie / to thinke that he woulde haue turned the churche money vnto his Act. 20. 34. owne vse ( which often times with his owne hande erned bothe his owne lyuing / and others too / which refused the wages which he might iustly haue chalenged ) woulde not also haue suspected hym off the same faulte / if he had chosen the ministers at his pleasure / withowte consente off the churche ? Or doo yow not thincke that there are manie / which suspecte diuers off the Bishopps that waie : which saie that for a dishe of fruicte of the goulden gaiffe / they lease owte / and make all manner off marchandise of the Lordes orchardes : that he which hathe no gifte in his harte / yet if he haue a gifte in his hande / neede no other keie to open the church doore / and enter into a benefyce ? Yf therfore for the auoidinge of suspicion of corruption by moneie / it was needeful for Sainct Paule / to communicate the election off such ministers with the churche : howe muche more was yt needefull / for the auoidinge off bothe the suspition off that vice / and diuers others / he shoulde doo the like in the ordinary ministers ? And if that where needefull in S. Paule / for vpholdinge off his honeste estimation to the greater fruicte off the gospell : I saie as I saide / what Archebishop shall dare take vppon him the makinge off a minister , withowte consente off the churche ? For if Saint Paules innocencie of life / which ( as the diamonte a peble stone ) might shame all the Archbishoppes that liue this daie / had neede off this aide : they muste off necessirie runne into suspicion off all those vices / whiche contemninge the iudgemente off the churches / make suche elections off their owne autoritie .

Where yow saie / that Saint Paule mighte have chosen them him selfe , if he woulde : I saie that it is vntrue / and a manifeste begginge of that in controuersie . And to saie so is asmuche / as if yow had saide : he mighte haue hazarded his good estimacion if he woulde / and lefte it at the curteousye off quarellers / which sowghte euery occasion of speakinge euil of his ministerie Beside that yow muste vnderstande / that in the gouernmente of the churches / the Apostels were gouerned by the spirite of God : whose counsaile when this was / it was no more lawful for him to refuse yt / them to disobey the lorde . Touching the vntrewth he chargeth me with / in that I saide / In his 3. Tr. 1. c. d. 4. the churche chose 1. Act. it is before answered . And it is a vaine quarell of the A. that there was no election off the church , becawse an Apostel maie not be chosen by men . As thowghe I had not set downe before / when I spake off that election / that I mean not the choise / which was made off one owte off those two : but the choise off those two owte of the whole churche : not that choise which determined / the Apostellshipp / but which determined / who they shoulde stande for the Apostelship . And if no election of the church can be saide to haue beene in the fyrste off the Actes / because an Apostell can not be chosen off any / but off God alone : then can not the Apostels ( which the D. affirmeth ) be saide to haue chosen Matthias and Barnabas / owte of the reste off the churche .

In the 1. 2. 3. sections off this diuision / he hathe filled vp allmost Diu. 6. p. 164. a whole side / wherin ther is nothinge at all / which either is not gone before / or commeth not after / and so grosly repeted / withowte ether newe coate / or newe colour : that I meruaile he is not ashamed . For the places Act. 1. 6. 14. for that also Cor. 8. 2. I haue replied before : to the other / answere shall be made in their places . Now then to begin̄e with the falsifyinge yow charge me with / I saie that althowghe I haue not gyuen yow the same wordes : yet I haue gyuen yow the same weighte / and I acknowledge yow for no M. of the tonge / by whose autoritie I shoulde be bound / to the same wordes which yow vse . I haue not taken yow / as yow doo me at the worste : but I haue gyuen yowr wordes a fauorabler meaninge / then they deserue / bycause I perceiued that yow mente to comprehende Cyprians tymes / althowgh yowr wordes euen to Cyprians time , woulde not so well beare it . yt is disputed whether this worde vntyll , or vnto , dothe shutte owte / or shut in the tyme wheroff it is spoken : but there was neuer I think anie / that dowbted whether that sayinge in common speach / mighte be stretched owte / beyonde that time wherunto it is particularly applied . Notwithstanding yowr wordes are yet more restreintiue . For yt restreineth more to saie / euen to suche a time : then to saie simplie / vntill suche a time . for that encrease off the worde euen , makethe the wall off separation higher .

But nowe he seethe the vntrwthe off this sayinge / he castethe yt vppon Maister Musc. and he must beare the weighte off yt . But suche moste grosse ignorance off the estate off the primitiue churche / was farre from him . And Maister Musc. cleareth him selfe off it well . For when he saieth / that the election of the minister by the voices off the churche , endured vnto Cyprians tyme : he meaneth not as the D. to put difference betwene the elections made by the people / and the bishopp : but shewethe onely a difference / betwene elections made by consente off the people / withowte the magistrate : and betwene the elections made by the consente of the people / withe the confirmation off the Magistrate . And that this is his meaninge / yt maie easely appeare . For pursuinge the profe of that election by the churche without the magistrate / alledging certein Canons thus he concludeth . After this sorte therfore were the Elders , bishops , and deacons in times paste Muscu . de elect . & ord. chosen : whiche fashion they still reteined , vntill the tyme off Christian magistrates , whose consente vnto the election off the bishops , was required . Therfore this absurditie beinge the Ans. owne / he muste be contente to beare yt .

Yt makethe no matter that this forme of election , was not in some fewe churches off the worlde in Cyprians time : nether is it meruaile . althowghe in some places at that time / they had departed from the institution of the Apostolicall churche . If it be proued that Cyprian teachethe / that it owghte to be so / and that it is Gods ordinance : if all the churches had declined from yt / as there were verie fewe : Cyprian muste needes by that sentence / disalowe them . Althowghe I muste also admonishe yow / that if those fewe examples in Cyprians tyme coulde preiudice the trwthe : yet yowr bishops election is not confirmed therby . for it mighte be doone by the eldershipe of the churche / by assemblie off manie bishops . moste vnlikeste is yt off all other / that it was doone at the pleasure off one bishope . Let vs therfore come to examine Cyprians iudgemente / and see whether I haue reported trwly of him .

Firste / as a trewante lothe to goe to scoole / seeketh the furthest waie : so the A. afraide off the lighte off Ciprians wordes / makethe entrance into this sentence by halfe a score lines / which mighte haue bene in one . Heere good reader as the A callethe for thy diligence / so if thowe gyue a litle heede : thow shalte see suche open / and violente peruertinge / as coulde not be doone withowte cracke off conscience .

Firste therfore let vs holde that ( which I thincke is accorded off both partes ) that Cyprians purpose is to withdrawe the people / from communicatinge with the ministrie off those / which had fallen from the gospell vnto Idolatrie . To the confirmation wheroff when he had alleadged / the greuousnes off that crime : he addethe / especially seinge the people haue powre to chuse worthie , and to refuse vnworthie ministers . As if he shoulde saie / if it were not in yowr powre / to refuse those vnworthie ministers / yow mighte haue some excuse : or if beinge in yowr powre to refuse the vnworthie / yow had not also powre to chuse another worthy / yow mighte haue likwise somewhat for excuse . For yow mighte alledge peraduenture / that it were better to kepe him stil / then to be with owte altogether / or to haue a nother as euill / or worse then he . but seinge yow haue bothe power to refuse the vnworthly / and to a chuse a nother : there muste needes befaulte . That this is the meaninge off Cyprian / and his argumente wherwith he calleth them backe / from communicatinge with the ministrie off those which had fallen : all which can set the nominatiue case / and verbe together / muste needes vnderstande .

Nowe let vs see whether the exposition off the Ans. will lib. 1. Ep. 4 : mainteine this sayinge . To accorde him and Cyprian / we muste firste expounde thes wordes to haue powre to chuse , and to haue powre to refuse , to be to stande by while they be chosen , or refused . Whiche maister D. gatherethe belike / becawse Cyprian saithe / the election muste be had the people beinge presente . In deede it appearethe the maner was then / that he that was to be chosen / was before them : but is it a good reason / that Cyprian woulde haue the people presente at the election / therfore he woulde not haue them to chuse ? seinge he had sayde immediatly before / that they had powre to chuse . Yt is well therfore / that he added / that yt owghte to be doone by their iudgemente : so that if the churche iudged him not meet / he owghte not to be minister . And further addeth ( which the D. is afraid of / and whiche he shamfully deniethe in state wordes ) by their voices .

The examples out off the Actes wherwith he bringethe lighte Diui. 1. p. 133. vnto that which he thawghte / are touched before : and amongest others by the election off the Deacons / whiche becawse the D. can not denie / but it was by the churche : he hathe lefte yt clean forthe . and yet most plainly he sheweth this by example of an election / which was lately made in the churche wherunto he writethe : sayinge / whiche wee see to haue bene doone withe yow , in the ordeininge off our fellowe in office Sabinus : that the bishopricke shoulde be gyuen him , by the voice off the whole brother hood and by the iudgemente off those bishopps which were presente , and which had written vnto yow off him , &c.

Thus therforey may be reasoned / that was the ordinance off God whiche Cyp. taught to haue bene practised by thos examples ( for he stil coupleth them together withe his doctrine giuen before / and grounded owte of the booke of numbers ) : But he taught that in thes examples the people were not onely presente at the choise / but also gaue their voices : therfore it was Gods ordinance / not onely that that the people shoulde be presente / but also that they shoulde chuse .

And here yt is againe to be obserued / that this is another off the popishe shiftes . for vnto Luther ( whiche alledgeth that the people owghte to chuse there minister / leste the churche shoulde Pig. hierarch. 2. lib 9. cap. 5 li. 10. c. 16. contr. Hos. 1. li. de legit . iudic . despise / or hathe him which is thruste vppon it / whilest it mighte not haue him whom yt desyred ) Pighius answereth that the meaninge off those wordes be / that the people shoulde be presente / and beare witnes : and the same answer is made by other Papistes / to other testimonies which are browghte . This by the waie that it maie be knowen / from whence the Ans. prouision comethe .

Nowe to procede : Where he saithe / that the people had no voices in Eleazars election : I aske him howe he prouethe that . If he answer because it is not mentioned in the scripture / he hathe answered hym selfe more then twentie times / when he saieth / that it is an euill argumente to reason negatiuely off the scriptures . Let him now take this answer / That there was no like necessitie off examininge Eleazars ministrie by voices / as ther is off other ecclesiasticall electione : forsomuche as he was chosen by the voice off God / whiche 20. Nom. 25. coulde not be deceiued . But Cyprian did well see / that if the lorde woulde not haue the iudgemente off the churche passed by in those / which he him selfe had chosen by his voice from heauen : muche les woulde he haue / any minister thruste vpon the churche againste her will / in elections which are made by men / withowte suche speciall direction .

Nowe as this interpretation off the A. is directly againste the wordes off Cyprian / directly againste his meaninge shewed forthe by practise / and examples : so dothe yt directly ouerthrowe the whole scope / whiche Cyprian alledgeth those wordes for : which is / that he mighte therby withdrawe the churches / from communicatinge with the ministerie of those whiche had fallen / seinge they mighte bothe put them owte / and chuse other in their places . For if he mente the churche shoulde stande by to see who were chosen / and to obiecte againste him if neede required ( albeit not thus muche was euer obserued of our bishops ) tel me who are they Cyprian ment shoulde chuse ? magistrate there was none / The eldershippe the D. dare not saie / for he trembleth at the verie name of it : I dare saie his meaninge is / to gratifie the bishoppe withe this morsell / but yt will choke him if he swallowe yt . Yt is the porcion off a nomber / and therfore if it coulde be caried from the churche : It muste come vnto the bishops that dwell rounde abowte that churche / where the election is to be made . And if the election / and depriuation by Cyprians minde / be in their handes : howe hathe the people powre to chuse / and refuse ? For if they woulde / they coulde neither depriue the presente incumbente / nor depriuinge him chuse another . Anye off thes thinges ouerthroweth Cyprians drifte / and armeth the people withe replies againste his exhortacion : namelie that they communicated withe their poluted minister / becawse yt is not in them to depose him / but in the Bishoppes rounde abowte : yt is not in them to chuse another / but in the Bishopps . Therfore his reprehension / and exhortation shoulde haue beene directed againste the bishopps / and not againste them . And so it is manifeste / both by the wordes / and whole drifte off Cyprian : that his iudgemente was / that by the ordinance off God in Ecclesiasticall elections / the consente / and iugemente off the churche is necessarie .

The Cuckoe is heere come againe : for looke the D. booke / Diuis. 7. pa. 167. pa. 136. s . 3. 4. & pa. 163 sec. 1. and yow shal see ether the same wordes / or at leste the same matter withowte any addition / Which are heere in the 1. 2. 3. 4. sect. off this diuis . In the 164. and 165. pag. sect. 1. 2. Yow haue yt set before yow almoste all againe . This is not Colewortes twise / but thrise sodden . Yt behoueth that he imagine a great famine of learned writinges / that dare thus abuse the cares / and leysure off his reader .

Touching the variety of Elections / which he citeth out of M. Caluin / onles as vnnatural weomen doo their children conceiued in adultry / he purpose to make awaie withe his cause : I knowe not what he shulde meane / to offer yt thus into the handes off her enemies . For he writeth thus in that place alledged . In oulde tyme Inst. li. 4. ca. 4. s . 10 ther was none receiued , not so muche as in to the nomber off clerkes , withowte the consente off the people : so that Cyprian doothe diligentlie excuse him selfe , that he had appoincted Autelius a reader withowte aduise off the churche . And so rehersing Cyprians wordes / after he addethe : But becawse in those smaller exercises , there was no greate danger , for that both they were in dailie tryall , and the function was not greate : the consente off the people ceased to be asked . And by those small exercises yt muste needes be / he meaneth the Acoluthes / the Exorcistes / and the Readers : whiche maie appeare to haue beene in 1. l. Epi. 3. 3 li. 22 4. li. 7. Inst. 4. li. 4. c. 10. s . Cyprians tyme by his Epistles . And maie yet better appeare / wheras Maister Caluin ( shewinge the cause / why the people was not so carefull in that behalfe off retaininge their righte ) saithe / For there was none made subdeacon , which vnder that seueritie off discipline that was then , had not gyuen longe experience off him selffe in the clerkshipp : and after he was tried in the subdeaconshippe , he was made deacon . So that yt is manifeste / that by the order off Clerkes there he meaneth those / whiche were vnder the degree of a subdeacon .

He saith also / that afterwardes the people did permitte the iudgemente , and choise off other orders likewise vnto the bishope , and elders , excepte the bishoppricke , or when any newe elders were appoincted . where firste yt makethe directly againste yow / that in times paste not so muche as a poore Exorciste / or reader was chosen / withowte the consente off the people . Secondly / that he saithe Cyprian did excuse him selfe vnto the people / that he had chosen Aurelius : implyinge therby that althowghe he had some reason / to leade him to doo so : yet he was in the peoples daunger . Thirdly / that yt was the peoples righte / in that they permitted this powre vnto others . Fourthly / that this righte was giuen to the elders / and not to the bishop alone / as yowe woulde haue yt . Laste of all / that bothe the choise of the bishoppe / and elder remained in the powre off the people . Wherfore yow vntrwly reporte / when yow saie / that the people committed the choise vnto the bishopes , and elders : excepte yt were in the election off the bishoppe . For althowghe he saie so / immediatly after he addethe . Excepte peraduenture newe elders were appoincted to the parishes : for then the multitude off the place , muste namely consente . And after he saith / Althowghe in the elders alwaies the consente off the cytisens was required . Hytherto appeareth / that all the elections Inst. li. 4. cap. 5. sc. 3. were made by consente off the people : if otherwise / by their curteousie / or ( as maister Caluin in an other place note the ) negligence .

Where the D. addeth / And some times onelie the minister did firste choose , and then offer those whome he had choosen to the magistrate , who ratyfied the election if he liked it , if not chose other , &c : In deede here is an election withowte the consente off the people / but what is that & caetera ? belike some straunger / which perteineth not to this matter . Marke then againe good reader / that if this were his owne doinge : there was neuer suche a clypper off koine / as he of the writinges off Godly men . For yt followeth euen in the same sentence / wherin the whole weighte off the cause dooth consiste / Then the matter was browghte to the multitude , which althowghe it were not bounde vnto those foreiudgements : yet therby was hable to make the les tumulte . or if the people did beginne , that was onelie to knowe whom they did moste desyre : And when the peoples voices were hearde , then in the ende the clergie chose . So that nether the clerkes coulde set in the ministerie , whom they listed : nor it was not necessarie to obeie the folishe desires off the people . Coulde there be anie plainer wordes / then that the people was not bounde by that bothe the elders / and the magistrate had doone / but were yet at their choise / if they liked not the chosen ? After Maister Caluin saithe / that this manner off election by the ministers , magistrates , and people was in force in pope Gregories time : and like to haue continued longe after .

Off yowr Canons heere alledged one onely excepted / which maketh nothinge for yow : the reste make directly againste yow . For the canon attributed to the Apostels yt is there saide / that if a bishop chosen vnto a churche , doo not receiue yt : he shall bee seperated from the communion , vntill he take yt But yf it be throwghe the naughtines off the people , which will not receiue him : then he shall remaine bishop still , and the clergie shall be seperated from the communion , because they tawght their people no better to obeie . Where appearethe / that the bishoppe coulde not enter / onles the people were willinge . And where the canon woulde haue him bishop still : yt meaneth that he should reteine the name of a bishop / because he was put by withowte his faulte . Whiche thinge was graunted to Miletius / to whom the Councel Socr. 1. 9. cap. ▪ Theodor. ● . lib. 9. c. of Nice in the Synodall Epistle / gaue the naked name of a bishop .

In the Ancyran Councell whiche yow alledge / there is the same : sauinge onely that yt is more directly againste yow . For there the Councell willethe the bishopp appoincted vnto a churche / yf it will not receiue him to retourne vnto his olde place of eldershipp / where he was before . The selfe same dothe the Canon Which yow alledge owte off the Councell of Antioche / confirme . So that thes three Canons can tel the bishop / apoincted by other bishopps off the prouince / no other remedy if he be refused off the people : but to quiete him selfe and retourne to his oulde place off Eldershipp . And that yow maie knowe howe contrarie alwaies maister Calu. is / vnto the Ans. obserue that off the same Councell off Antioche / and no dowbte of the same Canon / whiche the D. gathereth / that the churche hathe nothinge to doo in the election : Maister Caluin gathereth / that the Councell ordeined , that none shoulde be thruste lib. 4. Instit. c. 4. sect. 11. vpon the people againste their will .

The 12. Canon off the Councell of Laodicea / in sayinge that a bishop owghte not to be appoincted to the gouermente off the churche , beside the iudgement off the Metropolytan , and other bishopps harde by : gyuethe to vnderstande / that as they had a stroke in that election / so ther were other that had to doo beside them . For otherwise yt woulde not haue spoken so koldly off yt : For it saithe not / that the Metrapolitaine / and other Bishoppes / shoulde onely appoincte a bishoppe : no not so much as that they should appoint / but onely that the Bishoppe shoulde not be appointed / without them .

The 13. Canon / which prouideth that it shoulde not be permitted vnto the people , to make election off the minister : agrethe well with the 16. Canon off the Councell off Antioche . Which as it woulde not haue a bishopp put vppon the churches otherwise frowarde / without their consente ( as hathe bene shewed ) : so will it not / that those which the churches had chosen without the iudgemen off the bishoppes rounde abowte / shoulde stande in force . And if either Maister Caluin / or Maister Beza haue any credite with yow / yow haue their interpretation / that the meaninge off the Councell was not / to shutte owte the consente off the Cal. Inst : 4. li. 4. c. sec. 12. & vpon the 14. Act. Beza confess . ca. 5. Art. 35. church : but onely to prouide / that the ministers / and elders shoulde haue direction / as beste hable to iudge off the fitnes of him that shoulde be chosen . If they haue no credit with yow / yet whether ye w●l● or no yt may manifestly be shewed / that the canons meaning was not to shutte owte the people / by other Councels / off Nice / off Constantinople / off Toled / off Cartage / alleadged in the former booke . Wheroff some goinge before / and some comminge harde after / with suche cleare testimonie off the peoples consente in the election : decleare sufficiently / that the Councell of Laodicea cannot be thowghte / to haue had any suche meaninge / as yow suppose . but that there be no controuersie / I wil add to them the testimony off suche / wherby shall appeare / not onelie what the iudgmente off those Councels are : but what was bothe the customē off the churches / and the iudgement off other Councels from time / to tyme in this behalfe . In the Councell off Paris yt was thus decreed / 2. Tom. Concil. can. 8. And because in certeine thinges the oulde custome is neglected , and the decrees off the Canons are broken : yt is our decree that accordinge to the olde custome , the Canons off the decrees be obserued . Let none be ordeined bishop , againste the will off the cytisens : but he whom the election off the people , and off the clerkes with moste full consente hath required . Nether by the commaundement off the prince , nether by any other condition , let hym be thruste in againste the will off the Metrapolitane , and other the bishoppes of the same prouince . Orleans canon 10. 11. In an other Councel / Let yt not be lawfull to get any bishopricke by rewardes , or by other procurement : but by the will off the kinge , accordinge to the election off the clergie , and off the people , as it is conteined in the auncient canons , that the bishop shoulde be ordeined by consente of the clergie , and of the metrapolitan , or him that he will appoincte , together with the bishops of the same prouince . And after / Besides this accordinge as the olde canons haue decreed , no bishopp maie be gyuen vnto the people againste their will : nether by oppression of mighty men , whiche is detestable , let the cytisens , or clergie be drawen to gyue their consente . And thus muche for answer to yowr Councels .

To fetche a commaundemente out off the booke off numbers , is to fetche yt out off the higheste courte off heauen : And I was not constreined vnto it / for off more then halfe a score reasons brewghte / whether one off them be once moued by yow / I leaue it to be iudged . This commaundement pinched yow so / that albeit yow pretende lawghter : yet I dowbte not but yt is * * Yt is an her be which he that eateth dieth , but yet maketh the countenance and shew of one Sardons lawghter / that is to saie / from the teethe owtwarde . where yow saie / there is no worde which signifieth an election : yt is yowr olde boldnes / off denying that which is as cleare / as the none daies . Where also yow saie / that it speakinge off layinge on off handes , can make nothinge for the election off the church : I beseche yow syr how doo yow proue / that Timothe hathe the choise of ministers ? ys it not by thes wordes / which lawgheth . Pa. 160. that he is bidden not to laie on his handes ? and haue yow not saide / that by the layinge on off handes / the whole solemnitie off creatinge ministers is vnderstanded ? this is faste and lose / and not onely as Teconius said / that that wee will is holie : but when wee Aug 2. li. cont. Lit. Pet. 13 c. will / and as longe as wee will . Belike the laying on off handes signifieth nothinge / or if it doo / and not the consente off the people : Why doothe not the Answ. tell vs what ?

And where he goeth abowte to finde some difference in this / and that which I saie off the layinge on of handes by the Eldershippe / and heroff besides the peintinge off his mergente / speaketh ones / twise / and the thirde tyme / accordinge to his olde manner of repeticions : He purposely as seemeth / passeth by my answer to that obiection / that not the people , but certeine that is to saie the elders in the name off the people , did laie on their handes : as it is to bee seene in other places / where the gouernours in the Leuit. 4. 15. name off all the people / laie on their handes vpon the sacrifice for synne . Where yow will mee to speake in good earneste : If I had onely to doo with such a trifler / I woulde either answer nothinge / or els as such a one is worthie : but because I haue to doo with the church off God / for iudgement off the iudiciall / and Ceremoniall law / and for proofe off yowr vntrew dealing : I refer my selffe to In his 2. Tract. p. 120. that I haue saide before .

Yff this I haue alledged off layinge on off handes vpon the ordeined / bee a Ceremoniall lawe / which tooke ende by the comming off our Sauiour Christe : then the Apostels were iniurious vnto his deathe / that translated that Ceremonie from the Iewes vnder the lawe / into the churche vnder the Gospell . Therfore in this poincte yow haue to doo with the Apostles / and not with me . For as vnder the lawe the gouernoures / and the people consentinge into one action / testified the same by layinge on off handes off the gouernours onely : so vnder the Gospell the elders / and people consentinge in the election off one / doo testifie it by layinge on off handes off the Elders onely .

Where yow woulde proue yt abrogated / because yt yt is ioined with other thinges , which are abrogated : I haue shewed howe that In 1. 3. P. 144. is an engyne / to wreste owte off the handes off the church / all the morall lawes that euer were written . Where yow saie / there coulde be no election off the people in the leuytes , for that God had chosen them : Yow mighte haue vnderstanded / that althowghe the tribe of Leuy onely were vsed to the ministerie / yet all that tribe / was not applied that waies : but as many as were thowghte enoughe to supplie that office / and those also not at all aduenture / but by choise accordinge to their habilitie . I feare not Maister W. the iudgemente off the greateste enemies I haue / and frendes yow haue / in this cause : but that their owne consciences shall witnes withe mee / off my faithfull alledginge off the scriptures , and off yowr either notable ignorance / or very euill conscience .

And in thes iestes off yowres / and accusations off my byndinge men vnto the Ceremoniall lawe / and bringinge them to Iudaisme , and fetchinge off a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall lawe : Were yow not a fraide by my sides / to thruste thorowghe Cyprian ? Who fetcheth his profe for the election off the ministerie by the Nom. 20. chap. voice off the people / owte off the booke off nombers / where mention is made also off the preistes garmentes which was ceremoniall . Or were yow not afraide thus to handle Maister Caluin ? His profe is fetched owt off Leuiticus / whose speciall argumente 4. li. insti. 3. ca. s. 15. is to handell ceremonies and mighte not I fetche a commaundement out off nombers / which hath an other scope ? He onely vppon that it was commaunded / that Moses shoulde bringe the Leuites before the congregation , concluded that the peoples consente owghte to be had , in the ministers choyse : and was yt not lawfull for me hauinge the same grounde / and further also the comaundement that the people shoulde laie on their handes / to conclude as muche ? He toke his place from thence / where nether in the chapiters before / nor in that owte of the which he fetcheth this there is any thinge but ceremonial : And was it not lawful for me to take this sentence / becawse other thinges in this chap. were ceremoniall / but that I muste needes be thus iested on / and my discretion so greatly required / in handlinge the scripture ? Therfore I saie that I citing this place am no more Iewish / then the Apostels / then Cyprian / then Caluin .

Where I alledged for the establishing off that which he calleth a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall law , that the grownd of childrens baptisme , standeth vpon the ceremony off Circumcision : He answering that circumcision was a figure off baptisme , but that the Leuiticall priesthood was no figure off the Ministery off the Gospell , is deceiued . For certein thinges in the Ministrie off the lawe / were figures off thinges in the Ministrie off the Gospell : as their anointinge / signified that none maie bee admitted vnto the 8. Leuit. ministerie off the Gospell / but those which haue giftes meete for that purpose / as our Sauiour Christe him selffe owte off Esai expoundeth yt . Euen their sacrifices ( which off all other thinges are 4. Lu. 18. furthest from the ministrie of the gospell ) shadowed out the mortyfyinge off synne / by the sworde off the worde off God : that the mynisters mighte offer the people vnto God / an acceptable sacrifice throwgh Iesus Christe / as appeareth by Saincte Paule . And Rom. 15. 16. the lawes off the leuiticall priesthoode / are not onely figures off our ministerie : but often times also / rules to directe yt by . therfore as off that Aaron toke not vppon hym the preisthood / before he was called off God / the writer vnto the Hebrewes concluded / Heb. 5. 4. the callinge off our Sauiour Christe to his preisthood / so farre different from the preisthood off Aaron : so wee conclude / that no man maie put his foote into the ministrie / oneles he bee called . Thes argumentes if Maister W. answer be good / are auoided with a floute / that they be a mandatum owte off the bookes off Leuiticus , and Nombers : that they carie vs to Iudaisme , &c.

Yt is well the D. hath not to doo with the Anabaptistes . For he is like enowgh to betraie that cawse / which hauinge so sure groundes in the scripture ▪ is here by him laied open / to their mockerie . For he saith / that the 28. off S. Matthew is a generall grounde to proue the baptisme off Children : When our Sauiour Christe speaketh there onely off those which were off discretion / as appeareth by that he biddeth them baptise those / whom they haue made scolers off Christe by their doctrine . And therfore for so much as the Apostels coulde not teache children / nor coulde not make them disciples by teachinge before their baptisme : yt is manifeste that he speaketh not there off childrens baptisme . And this might he haue learned for his vse / in the same booke off Zuinglius / oute of which he hath taken so manie thinges to no pourpose . And it is not onely De baptismo . 2. Tom. Maister Zuinglius answer / but other learned mennes which haue had to doo with that secte . As for the promise alledged / that god is our God , and the God of our seede , albeit that bee the grounde / wherupon the holy sacramentè off Baptisme is ministred vnto infantes : yet yt is not sufficiente / without addinge the commaundement off God / touchinge the circumcision off yonge children . For iff the lorde hauinge gyuen that promise vnto Abraham / had commaunded no circumcision at all / or had onely commaunded yt to be gyuen / to those off discretion : yt had not bene lawfull for Abraham to haue circumcised his infantes / yet they shoulde haue remained vnder the promes . So that whether Yow will / or no : wee muste come to reason from circumcision vnto baptisme . Neither is that yow alledge / of Circumcision to haue beene a figure off baptisme , sufficient to deliuer yow oute off the nettes / wherwith yow snare yowr selfe . For albeit yt bee a figure off baptisme : yet yt is aceremonie / and a principall parte off the ceremoniall lawe : and yowr answer is generall againste all reasoninge from the ceremoniall lawe / vnto that which is established vnder the gospell . Therfore I vpholde still / that yowr answeres here , and in other places / tende to spoile vs off diuers pillers , and principall buttresses off our religion .

Where he saithe / he condemnethe not other churches , which haue Diuis. 8. pag. 169. appoincted other orders of electing pastors : I reporte me to thè reader / whether the wordes be generall / and whether the reasons he alledgeth for that purpose / be likwise . Nether can the D. shewe any reason why in Geneua / why in whole Dominions in Germanie / Why in Scotlande / in Fraunce also in the tyme off their peace / this order off election by the consente off the people / shoulde bee good / and pernitious in England . Which notwithstandinge owghte to haue bene shewed / if there be anie .

I expounded the worde owght , as reason wheroff the lawe is founded / and experience which is often times the interpreter Cap. 5. pag. 170. off the lawe / tawgte me / to shewe that where the consente off all can not bee had ▪ there the thinge shoulde passe / by the moste parte of those which haue intereste . And where yow affirme / that lawiers doo saie , that that sentence is to bee vnderstanded of compartners , or iointe tenantes in some howse , or possession , and not off the interest off bodies politike : I am well contente they be interpreters of the lawe which they professe / and therfore iff that be shewed me / I will reste in that interpretation . But the reason assigned / that it seldome commeth to pas that they will all consente / semethe not so stronge : consideringe that there is not so great violence doone vnto the wordes off the lawe / which may not be founde in other places / if by the worde all , the moste parte be vnderstanded . Especially when allthowghe all doo not agree : yet all haue had free voice in that matter .

And where yow saie / that euen that lawe admitteth diuers exceptions : that is not materiall . For I laie not so muche weighte of this sentence / as thowghe the cause should rise / and fall with it . I mente that as much credite mighte growe vnto the cause by this / as by a prouerbe which is trewe For the moste part : off which kinde off reasons not onely orators / but the scripture yt selfe diuers times vseth . And therfore if I gaine by this lawe / that the ordinarie choise off ministers / owght to be by the people : I hath at I loked for . But yt is to be obserued / that where the A founde faulte with me / for mitigatinge the necessitie off the worde ought , by this exception if it maie be : he notwithstandinge alledgeth fowre exceptions , wherby the necessitie which he saithe that worde importeth / is quite ouerthrowne . And if those condicions be trewe : then be like I did well vnderstande the worde ought , the vnderstandinge wheroff he can not aforde me . Yt is well you be no lawier . For yowe that are so liberall off a dinners talke / as to tell vs off Many together , and Many senerally , with so many exceptions to so smale pourpose : if yow had beene studied that Pluribus vt vniuer sis , pluribus vt sin gulis . waies / woulde haue troubled vs all . for then yt is like wee shoulde haue had alwaies Cesar / for Christe / and Paule the lawier / for Saint Paule the Apostell .

But marke what a trymme waie he hathe founde / to proue that the whole parishe chuseth when / the bishopp onely chusethe : that they are willinge to haue hym / whom they are compelled whether they will or no / to receiue . Yea and not onely that / but that euery minister is chosen by the whole realme , that is to saie by those which neuer sawe him / nor heard off him . But hath he forgotten firste that it is our controuersie / whether the parliament haue doon well / in establishing off suche an order off makinge ministers and whether this egge off the bishoppes election / laied in propery / could by the sitting vppon off the Parliament ( although neuer so godly ) leese the poysoned nature it had before . If that bee not agreed / this deuise that the people chuse when the bishop , be-because yt was so ordeined by all estates ) serueth not . This libertie as hathe bene shewed / is a peece off the liberties which Christ hath purchased vnto his churches / by the sheddinge off his precious bloud : wherin they owght to haue stood / and which is no more lawfull for them to alienate / or set ouer to others : then to giue awaie the inheritance of the kingdome of heauen / wherunto this is annexed .

Moreouer we speake off an election / wherin consente is to be gyuen / as ofte as the church is destitute off a minister : and he off consente ones gyuen for euer . We off an election which is passed / by all the howsholders off euery church : he off that which was passed / by a fewe burgeses in the whole realme . We off a free election : and he off an election wherin yt is by yowr leaue / againste yowr will . Now the Papistes may clap their handes / for againste all the argumentes that Maister Caluin / Beza / Bullinger / Zuinglius / and others bringe to proue / that the church ought to haue right in the election off their minister / and that yt belongeth not to one bishopp to choose a minister : they may answer / that the bishop chuseth not but the church / yea the whole realme . For the prince / and the people / and the whole lande haue giuen that powre vnto the Pope / and the pope to him : so that whatsoeuer is doon in that election by the bishoppe / is doon by the people . But see howe I forget my selfe / which alledge this vnto him as a greate absurditie / whose case in this question / is all one with the Papistes : yet euen with him / it shall be sufficient to vntie the bande , which wee haue bounde our selues with , onles he will haue the election still continewe in the Popes handes .

And indeede he calleth vs heere / to the consideration off our sinnes : wherby wee haue thus prodigally wasted / and gyuen into the handes of straungers / the liberties which were bowght with so great a price . And wee haue better cawse to thinke the earnestlier off them / for somuche as the Answ. lawgheth vs to scorne / and woulde make vs beleue that wee consente to elections when wee are a sleepe / that we chuse those / whom wee refuse : and so other eatinge the kernels / he maketh vs not a diner / but a feaste with the shels .

To all thes accusations off the A. wherby he chargeth the Diuis. 2. pag 101. ciuill elections off bodies politike / if I shoulde answer that The disorder off the bishoppes election is suche , the peace with Sathan / and synne / and contention with all goodnes that hath / and dailie dooth issue by them into all the partes off the Realme / so horrible / the ambition of the person standinge in election so shameles / the corruption off some / the partiall affection off others to their kinsfolke , their seruants / their seruants freends / the carelesnes of others / in some the wante of sufficient knowledge / in other some of sinceritie / and purenes of doctrine / to be shorte in all the wante of dewe consyderation of weightynes of that ministerie / is so apparante : that as that manner off election for necessarie cawses / is altered in the best ordered churches in Europe / so it is desired to be altered , in the churche of Englande / by those which be wise , godly , and learned , and by those which loue the godlie quietnes , and prosperitie off the churche : and that experience crieth that those are the worthiest ministers / most apteste to set forthe the glorie off God / muste profitableste for the church / which are chosen with the consente of the people : I saie if I shoulde answer thus / I dowte not but all the worlde will witnes with me / that I haue iuster cause thus to speake off the bishoppes elections off ministers : then the A. hathe to speake so slaunderously / off ciuill elections made by consent in townes / and cities . God be praised this cause off discipline wee mainteine / hath bene / and by Godes grace shal be vpholden / withoute towche off any lawfull estate / or forme off gouernment off commen wealth : but yt appeareth that the Answ. can not mainteine his cawse / without open oppugninge off one off them . And therfore to keepe the bishoppe in his throne / downe muste goe all elections by manie / and by the same reason all trialls off controuersies by manie / all determinations / and iudgmentes by manie / and in a worde the whole estate almoste off our commen wealth / muste bee remoued . Yow ac●e vs off confoundinge the commen wealth / which yow are neuer hable to proue : here yow are taken in the verie acte doinge / not by conclusion / or implication / but by a flatt / and directe affirmation . I dowbte not that wise men doo see yowr folie / which beinge so vnskilfull of the gouernment of the churche / the knowledge wherof you doo professe : will take vpon yow as Phormio vnto Haniball / to prescribe what forme of gouernemente / muste be vsed in the commen wealth . And if it were not beside my profession / I coulde shewe that it agreeth moste bothe with the definition of a cytisen / which those gyue which handell this matter / and with the practise off the beste gouerned cities / that the cytisens should haue this intereste off choise off their Maiors / and Bailifes : confirmed by experience off daungerous seditions / and seperations from the commen wealth / which haue happened by abridginge the people off this / and suche liberties . But for somuche as yt belongethe not vnto a diuine / to medle with those / but to contente him selfe with what forme off gouernemente soeuer ( so it be lawfull ) thowght good to those / to whom the orderinge of that doothe perteine : I leaue to speake of that matter . But a man maye smell the D. farre off . For this is put in for defence off that spoile / which he / and others by vntrew surmises / moste vnnaturally made in the vniuersitie / when to th ende the Idlenes / couetousnes / and ambition of certeine might be the more secure / and without checke they by their longe / and crooked talones / seased vpon the authoritie off the Vniuersitie Senate .

But because he casteth so scornefully awaie / those reasons which are alledged by me : I woulde knowe what he will answer to Maister Martyr / who vseth the same reason I haue here / saying that it is no meruaile , that the church hath this righte to Vpon 1. Cor. 16. chuse her ministers : seinge the ciuil lawes doo giue this powre to incorporate townes , to chuse their Physicions , and Scolemaisters .

Where he saith / that the multitude is for the moste parte ignorant , careles , and oftentimes euill disposed , and commonly led by affection , hatred , feare , &c. There is no vice which anie one off the churche is subiecte vnto / but the bishopp is subiecte vnto the same . Nether i● there any affection enemie vnto a good election / wheroff the bishoppe is not liker to be ouercomed : then either the whole churche / or the greateste parte theroff .

What neede this goinge abowte the bushe ? I speake off the visible churche / called by the preaching off the gospell : not off those whose callinge is yet hydden / and folded vp in Godes election . And of those I saie / not as yow ( for what can yow els doo : ) vntrewly reporte / that they can not erre in chusing their pastor : but that they are not such : ignorant dottrels / as yow woulde make vs beleue / and such as haue no taste to discerne betwene good and bad / holie and vnholie . And this knowledge / and discretion off good and euill / is not onely in those whiche are effectually called : but in those also which haue onely the outward callinge / without the spirite off sanctification / and adoption off the children off God . So that the pretence off suche ignorance as yow speake off / can not fall into anie whiche are off the visible church off God . The D. coulde not hale in the corrupte interpretation off the pope in this place / to helpe to make vp his answer / but he muste ascribe a notable vntrewthe vnto me / that I shoulde goe abowte to proue , that the churche can not erre in the election off the minister . Where haue I pretended any suche thinge ? or what neede haue I to proue that ? As if I coulde no otherwise driue the bishopp from this sole election / onles I coulde proue that the people can not erre in their election : Or as if bishoppes elections were without danger off error / so that he whiche will change them / muste be driuen to seeke for suche electors / as no error can take holde off . And iff any barres were stronge enowghe / to kepe yowr tonge from this vntrew dealinge : my wordes which followe by and by after / wherin I confesse the church maie erre , had beene sufficient to restraine yt .

Againste my reasons here be bare wordes / that the pastors are Diuis. 3. pa. 172. neuer the worse loued , that are thruste vppon them . I coulde haue as well as yow alledged the experience in other places / if all men coulde haue seen yt : and haue referred them to the manifolde fi●tes in lawe betwene the pastor / and the people in our churches . How often shall I tell him that the papistes are not the churche / nor off the churche off Christe : and therfore not to be suffred / to haue to doo with the election off the minister ? this needed he not to haue asked / if he had had his ( to be shorte ) which he repeteth so often / in any commendation . He asketh / whether men allwaies continue in loue , off those whom they haue chosen . yt is easier to continew loue / where loue is : then bothe to fal into loue of him whom they coulde not awaie with / and also to continew the course off that loue still . And if the not seruinge off their affections , breed hatered towardes him whom they loue : yt will muche more make yt flame againste him / againste whom yt was before kindled .

But still the A. imagineth off the churche as off dogges / and which receiuinge meate at the hand off their pastor / turne againe Mat. 7. 6. vpon him / and rent him : and not as sheepe which heare the voice off their pastor . And althowghe there be some hypocrites vhhich doo so : yet all the church doth not so . And therfore for their sakes / 10 ▪ Iohn . 4. and for the giuinge the deeper roote off loue in their hartes towardes the pastor : yt is meete that this waie off free consente shoulde be taken . As for the Hypocrites / when they shall ceasse to loue theyr pastors / for rebukinge their faultes : that shall be to the encrease of godes glorie . Forsomuch as they are by so muche more inexcusable before God : as they haue refused his admonition / whom they them selues chose for that purpose . And not that onely / but the hatred conceiued off that dewtie off the minister / shall be bridled / and holden in rather by ●●e remembrance off the iudgement / which he once in token off good will gaue off him . For euen the earthely / and naturall man hath this in him / that whom he hath once loued : hym if he hate afterwarde / onles yt be for some thinge apparantly worthy off hatred / he will be lothe to vtter it . And althowghe for that his maners please him not / he can not loue him yet leste he shoulde appeare inconstante / and deceiued in his choise : he will pretende to loue him still . So that the consente off the churche in the election of the ministerie / beinge profitable vnto the godlie / and those which are trewe sheepe / that their loue maie abounde towardes their minister / and in respecte off the Hypocrites / and goates / that they maie be more inexcusable before God / and lesse hurtefull to men : thes reasons stand still vntouched off the A.

Yt is an easye thinge for M. D. Which neither proueth / Diuis. 4. pag 173. nor improueth any thinge by scripture / to aske by what scripture proue , that if the parishe choose an vnfitt minister : the ministers , and elders of the churches should aduertise , &c. The scripture I proue yt by ys / that Saint Paule when he teacheth that all the faithfull are members off one misticall body off Christe / which owghte to haue a mutuall Rom. 12. 12. 1. Cor. care one off an other : laide the foundations off this politie . for as in the bodie off one particular church / euery faithfull man compared with an other in the same / is a member one off a nother : so in a more generall bodie off a whole Realme / euerie particular churche compared with other / is likewise member of them . therfore as nature teacheth my hande to helpe the disorder which is in another parte of my bodie : so the spirite of God owte of his worde / throwghe a fellow feelinge teachetche one churche to stretche owte her hande / to put a waie as yt can / the euill which yt seethe approche vnto another . And therfore when the scripture willeth Rom. 15. 14. 3. Heb. 13. that one shoulde admonishe another / it is not onely a commaundement to euery singular man / towardes his fellow : but also to one whole companie / towardes another societie .

And off this care extended so farr that one churche hath 2. Cori. 8. 23. sente to admonishe another / wee haue example in the epistle to the Corinthes : where the Macedonian churches sente their embassadors with Saincte Paules Epistle / bothe to moue the Corinthians to liberalitie towardes the poore / and to receiue that which was giuen by the churche vnto their vse . And this maie serue to proue / that one churche owght to admonishe a nother : and therfore also those which are nexte / as those which are fitteste for that pourpose .

That from the admonition off the churches , yt is meete to come to synodes , if the iudgement off the churches be contemned : maie beshewed Math. 18. by proportion / from the place of our Sauiour Christe in Saint Mathew . For as when one brother is not moued with the admonition of two / or three / the matter muste be referred vnto the churche / to see whether the maiestie of it will moue him / whom the authoritie off twoo or three woulde not : euen so it is meete that the church / that maketh lighte off the iudgement off twoo or three churches / shoulde be pressed with the iudgementes off the diocese or prouince / as shall be in that behalffe aduised . And if I were in this poincte destitute off the worde off God : yet the naked examples off the reformed churches / owght to weighe downe a popish custome .

And that the magistrate owghte to laie to his hande , iff the admonitions take not place : it is manifeste by the reason which is alledged . I haue looked maister Zuinglius Ecclesiast ouer , and ouer againe . The summe wheroff is / that none shoulde take vpon hym any ministerie / which is not called of some churche / and of the ministers nere abowte / contrarie to the practise off the anabaptistes : which entred into all churches / and sometime put the pastor beside the pulpet / from which whether yow / or we be further / let the reader iudge .

Where yow saie / that I forgett my selffe which suppose now the churche maie err , that said before yt was spirituall , and iudgeth all thinges : if yow coulde forget this vntrue dealinge / I remembred my selfe well enowghe . Thes cauilles which come so often / without any colour off trewth / are vtterly vnworthy off answer : but as I haue saide in another place / require rather a censor / then a disputer . Howbeit becawse there is nothinge so vnsauerie / which some taste maie not be abused by . I haue answered yt before .

There is nothinge so easie which is not harde / to him that is vnwillinge . And therfore the A as Salomons sluggard , saith prou 22. 13. that the Lion whose delighte is in the foreste / and in the wildernes / is in the highe streat , or in the burse : that is to saie / maketh difficulties wher none is . And as this partly cometh of his vnwillingnes : so diuers of thes questions ( if he doo not dissemble ) come of wante off knowledge / not onely of the gouernemente of the churches nowe / but off all aunciete tymes . For he asketh / who shall complaine off the faulte committed in the election , to the churches by ? if the elders to whom that care especially apperteineth / doo not : others owght whom that disorder offendeth . Ther needeth no callinge together , and therfore no danger off tumulte , disorder , confusion , charges , partes takinge , runninge vpp and downe , losse off time , offence , quarels : yt is enowghe that yt be doone by the eldership off the churches and if were needfull to haue the churches / whole consente : it might be doone in ordinarie meetinge for the seruice of god / without anie of those things which the D. imagineth . The churches maie admonishe by their seueral / or commen letters emongeste them . But aske me not who shall carie the letter / what he shal haue for his paines / whether he shal ride / or goe a foote : whiche yow might as well / as those fonde questions which you haue moued .

It is meete the prouinciall Synodes be certeine / and standinge / as often also as maie be conueniently : and it was ordeined as I thinke in one of the Africane Councels / that their shoulde be at the leste / twoo or three euery yeare . So there shall be as spedie prouision off a pastor for the churche / in suche cases off difference : as now when they be without a pastor six whole monethes . For the questions who shall summon the Synodes , and in what place they shall be holden : they perteine not to this question / onles the A. will haue no Synodes at all . for if he admitte them : the sum̄oner / and the place which are meete for the assemble generally / and for the decidinge off all causes which fall into the consideracion off the Synod / are meete also for this cause . And where he asketh what if the prince doo not his dutie : then yt is as if there were no godly magistrate / then yt is with them as if suche a disorder shoulde happen vnder an vnchristian prince : and then the people shall perishe in their sinnes / but their bloud shall be required at his hand . But still the A. seethe not how hee reasoneth againste hym selfe . For if none of the bishoppes off the foresaide parishes / none off the elders / neither those bishoppes and elders which emongeste the reste / and in the name off all are chosen as the flowres oute of the prouince / and sente to the Synode / nor the magistrate / I saie if none off all thes / nor all thes together doo their dutie : how shall we thinke that the bishopp will doo it ? And iff hee doo yt in appoinctinge a fitt bishopp for the parishe / and the parishe will not admitt him / but take one which is vnmeete off their owne choise : what remedy hath he / when he is forsaken off the magistrate ? Thus as shortly as I coulde / I haue answered this legion off questions : and if my answer in speakinge off thinges so commen / be tedious : take thy selfe good reader vnto the A. which merueileth at them / as if they came oute off India .

Where he saithe / I thus appointe the Prince a good office : I haue shewed that the scripture appointeth yt / and not I : and it is the moste honorable office which the Prince can haue / to see the churches be kepte in good order : nether taketh yt any thinge from the royall estate that he muste obey / and serue the lorde . And where he saithe / by this meanes the Prince muste stande , and loke on all this while , and in the ende laie to his hande : I answer / that wheras thes waies off admonition by the churches / and Synode are sente before his authoritie : yt serueth not onely for the ease off the magistrate / whilest that after this sorte oftentimes / the difference is ended before it come to him : but also agreeth better with the maner off Phisicke / which owght to be vsed in such diseases . For that which may be conueniently wonne with a worde / shoulde not be gotten by the sworde : and that which maye begotten to bee doone with conscience / shoulde not be essaied by compulsion . Yowr slaunder ( that wee gyue no more to the cyuill magistrate , then the papistes ) so often repeted / is already / and god willing shall be more / apparante . Yt is also a notable / and an impudente slaunder / that the Magistrate muste onely at the commaundement of the seniors , execute suche lawes as they haue deuised : wher as wee holde / that if al the bishopes / and elders in the realme / woulde decree vnlawfull thinges / the Prince owght to make them voide : and that he may / and owght to punishe all ecclesiasticall persons / which walke disorderly . Likewise yt is a fond dreame / of surcharginge the Prince with thes matters : as thowgh the Princes authoritie / necessarily deriued vnto diuers in euery shire / for other affaires off gouernment / maie not likwise depart also this care vnto them .

Therfore if yow haue no better exceptions then these : I am not afraied / stil to commit my reasons to the iudgement / not onely of the godly / which rest in authoritie of the word / but euen off the wise / and reasonable man / which maketh his account of likelihoodes .

THes highe wordes / that he remembreth no learned writer new nor Chap. 6. pa. 165. oulde , which denieth that there were fewe professors of the gospell in the Apostels times , in respecte off those professe nowe : what haue they beside a crake ? And in respecte off the oulde writers / yt is absurdly saide . For howe coulde they compare the nomber of the professors of our times , with those which were in the primitiue churches / onles they shoulde prophecie : seinge they were dead long before ? And maketh yt for yow / if the newe writers doo not denie this ? Iff it he no good reason from the scripture negatiuely , in those thinges which yt professeth to speake off : is it good from other writers / and from one parte off them / in thinges which they make no profession of ▪ I looked therfore yow shoulde haue browghtesome / which by affirming that yow saie : mighte if not make it true / yet at the leste seeme true . I could off yowr chalenge take occasion / to bringe all the peregrination off Sainct Paul / declared in the Act. Epistles / and especially in the 15. Rom. drawen to my hand / by which appeareth that he for his parte onely / had caused the Gospell to sounde in more then halfe off the worlde . I coulde also fetche in Euseb. and Ierome / which testifie what the other Apostels did Lib. 3. c. r Iero. ad Marcell . for their parte . I propounded that which I saide withoute proofe , because the thinges are manifestly knowen / and suche as can not be denied : yow affirme withowte all proofe that in controuersie / and wheruppon yowr cause in yowr iudgement dependeth / that no one parte off the worlde , no one citie , no one the leaste towne , receiued the gospell wholy in the Apostles time .

If I shoulde suffer yow to goe awaie with this greate / and vngrounded sainge : yet therby can not be concluded / that there are more Christians nowe in a parte off Europe , then was throwghoute the worlde in the Apostles time . But I require proofe of that yow set downe so precisely / not onelie because I thinke yow can not warrant yt by any : but also because I haue somewhat to excepte againste Act. 8. yt . For yt maie appeare that Samaria did wholy receiue the gospell . For beside that yt is recited / that with one accorde the multitudes gaue heede vnto that Philipp saide : S. Luke declaringe in the 10. and 11. verses / that all that were in Samaria from the litle to the great / were bewitched with the inchaunmentes off Symon : addeth in the 12. verse / that when they beleued they were baptised . This hauing relation vnto that which goeth before / which is that all were abused by the magycian : yt followeth that the whole cytie receyued the gospell . Wherunto maie be referred 9. Luk. 53. 4. Ioh. 9. the emulation betwene Ierusalem / and Samaria : wherby yt came to passe that the gospell thruste oute off Ierusalem / was both easelier / and more generally receiued in Samaria . Lykewise that yt is saide in the 13. verse / that euen Simon him selfe off al Act. 8 : other moste vntoward / beleeued : and that in the 14. ver. that Samaria had receiued the word off God , and not many in Samaria / Act. 14. 1 & 21. & 17 4. as he speaketh off other places / where the Gospell was but in parte receiued . Yf one excepte / that it is not like euery singular person turned / at the preaching off Philip : I answere that in suche streight signification of all / there shall be at this daie founde no kingdome / and almoste no citie which hath receiued the gospell . But if the whole profession off the gospell / be estemed off that which is doone by the bodie / and state of the cytie : yt seemeth that the wordes off Saincte Luke will beare owte / a whole / and generall profession at the leaste off the moste parte / which yow denie . And yf it be trewe that Euseb. writeth / we haue a manifeste testimonie off the whole receiuing off the gospell in the 2. li. 1. ca. citie off the Edissens / which was wonne vnto the Gospell by the preachinge off Thaddeus / sente to kinge Agbarus by Thomas the Apostell : off whom yt is written / that he browght all to the knowledge of the gospell / and that the whole citie of the Edissens , hauing at that time giuen her name vnto the profession off Christe , so continued vnto the time wherin Eusebius wrote .

Where yow woulde seeme to saie some great matter / when yow add not at Ierusalem : yt is asmuche as if yow shoulde say / that no towne receiued the gospell / because Ierusalem the moste murderinge towne in the whole worlde / did not : whose rebellion / and for it destruction / beinge foretolde off our Sau. Christe / muste needes follow . For touchinge the Apostles abode there / it was not for the hope off any plentifull haruest to be reaped in that cytie : But partly for that the Iewes / vnto whom they were sente to preache first / had their concourse thether from all corners of the worlde : partly to fullfill the prophecye / off the sounde of the gospell from Syon / into all partes of the worlde : and thirdly to prepare a readier passage / for his heauy iudgementes to Esa. 23. come vppon that cytie .

That also also which yow add / that the tenthe parte off the inhabitans off Ephesus , Antioche , and Rome , was not Christian in the Apostles times : is onely saide / and it is muche for yow to speake so largely off the tenthe / not hable to proue the fyueth / or thirde . And althowghe yt can not be certainly knowen / what nomber of beleuers were at thes places : yet it maie be by all likelyhood shewed / that it is vntrwe especially off the twoo first . Of Antioche wee reade / that when they which were scattered by persecution moued in Act. 11. 20. 21. Ierusalem / preached there : the hande off the Lorde was with them , and a great nomber beleuinge turned vnto the lorde . And in the 24. verse yt is saide / that at the preachinge off Barnabas / there was a great multitude added vnto the lorde . And yet in the 26. verse yt is declared / that afterward Barnabas procuringe Saint Paules comminge thether / they bothe together abyding there by the space off one whole yeare / tawght a great multitude . Here is mention off three great multitudes / which at seuerall times were turned vnto the lorde in that citie : and how dare yow yet saie / that al thes were not the tenth parte ? Of Ephesus also it is written / that the fruicte off S. Paules preaching there by the space of twoo yeares / was so greate / that the bookes off those which had exercised curiouse / and vnlawfull artes / were bourned in the sight off all men : which coulde not be doone without great daunger vnto the church / onles the greatest parte off Act. 19. 19. ibid. 27. the citie had beleued . Which maye yet more appeare / for so much as Demetrius the siluersmythe / affirmeth that the arte of makinge shrines , and Dianas temple , was in danger to be set at nothinge .

And as the A. is to narrow / in esteming the fruicte of the Apostles preaching / accompanied with suche powre off miracles / and diuersities off giftes off the holy goste / wherby were gathered greater nombers off professors off the gospell / then nowe by the symple preaching off the worde : so in his accompte off the nomber off professors off the Gospell now / he is marueilously lauishe . For where are those whole contreis , nations , and kingdomes which professe Christe ? If he take in the Papistes to make vp his reckuinge / they will not be receiued . For wee speake off the churche off Christe / and off those which imbrace the gospell : and so himselfe had put yt in his answer to the admonition . The papistes therfore / which pretendinge the name of Christe / persequute the gospell / are the Synagogue off Sathan / and must in this accounte off Christians / be shut owte : howsoeuer by changing off the professors off the gospell , into those which professe Christe , yow woulde seeme to winde them in The mixture which was in the Apostels times / off professors off the gospell / with those which were professed enemies vnto yt / beinge yet in those kingdomes yow speake of : yow are so farre from shewinge / that the multitude off professors off the gospell in Europe / is greater now then yt was in then in all Asia / Africke / and Europe : that yow doo not so muche as shewe / that the nomber off Christians in Europe yt selfe / is nowe greater then in time off the Apostles .

When it is saide / that the whole church assembled for election : all men knowe that therby is mente / that particular companie off professors off the gospell / which dwellinge nighe together / make one assemblie : and therfore that yow write off the impossibilitie , off gathering all the church scattered throwgh out the whole worlde into one place , is but a meere daliance . Yow saie / they mighte well meete withowte confusion in the Apostles times , which can not be nows : the reason yow assigne / in the fewnes in one place off the professors then , and multitude now . Althowghe yt be graunted that there are moe nowe in the cities / then were then : and that be geuen yow too / that the multitude owghte to chaunge the forme off elections ( neither wheroff yow are hable to shewe ) : yet yt still fallethe owte againste yow . For allbeit ther be moe professors in a citie then were : yt followeth not / that there are moe belonginge vnto one assembly / then there were them . Wherin I wil goe no further / than to the example of the church / which yow alledge to haue chosen the deacons : where coulde hardly be lesse then sixe thowsande persons / seing that at the second sermon of Saincte Peter / there beinge fiue thowsande / it is affirmed afterward that multitudes 4. Act. 4. 5. Act. 14. off men / and weomen were added . Now where shall yow haue lightly in the cities which professe the gospell / one onely church of so many thowsand persons ? considering that for the greater commoditie of meeting / and gouerning the whole masse off Christians in one citie / yt is deuided into seuerall churches / as it were flockes into seuerall feedinges . And if yow woulde haue proued any thinge / yow shoulde not haue considered howe the nomber off Christians are increased in their cities : but howe they are encreased in their churches . And so yow shoulde haue founde that by your owne reason / the elections in the time off persequution / owghte rather to haue bene made by one / and the elections now / by many : seinge in persequuted churches / for wante off the commoditie off diuiding them selues into proportionable assemblies : the nomber beinge more / the danger off tumulte / and confusion / muste by yowr owne sayinge be greater .

Yow saie yt is a verie good reason / that because the churche was vnder the crosse , therfore yt was few in nomber in comparison : but yow answer not the auctoritie which I alledged / touchinge the Exo: 1. 12. encrease off the children of Israell / more vnder the crosse / then in prosperitie . The reason yow add / off many hypocrites in the peace of the churche , hath small force . For that there are in persequuted churches manie hypocrites / maie appeare by the Israelites / which dred in persequution / made often rebellions in the wildernes : likewise by the complaintes off S. Paul / that al sought their owne not Phi. 2. 21. 2. Tim. 1. 15. Christes / that al were turned from him .

That one example onely / is hable to ouerthrowe that which yow put so generally : yet yowr one example off London , is not hable to confirme your pourpose : yt serueth yow therfore for a pinche at the citie / and for no reason off yowr cawse . And albeit the backslyding from the Gospell / was throwgh the realme verie horrible in Queene Maries daies : yet there is no cause to picke London owte as the worste / seinge there were great nombers there / which with hasarde off all they had / and of their lyues / frequented assemblies where the worde off God was truly preached / and the Sacramentes purely administred : the like meetinges beinge rarely founde in other places / no ( to our owne shame be yt spoken ) not in the vniuersitie / where of moste righte / they should haue beene .

What gaine yow by that the churche was diminished in Ierusalem ? seinge the decrease of one churche / was the encrease off diuers other / wherunto those off Ierusalem adioined them selues . Therfore yow conclude not well / in sainge that particular churches by persecutions are diminished , because one churche off Ierusalem was so : no more than yow can saie / that a man hath a white head / because he hathe one white heare on his head . but I maie rather saie / that by persequution the particular churches are encreased / for somuche as Samaria / and other churches were by that flight of Ierusalem / partly adorned with teachers / partly augmented in disciples . And therby is confirmed that I haue set downe / off the merueilous spawne off the churche vnder the crosse : bothe becawse euerye one dryuen from Ierusalem / was as good seede which browght his hundreth / or fiftie folde : and for that after Ierusalem was deliuered of that birthe / she conceiued againe / and browghtforthe ( as maie appeare ) a greater nomber then before . 21. Act. 20

What are my wordes werby I affirme / that the churches in time off persecution meete often , and kepe together ? yt is that I precisely denie . Verely this is too homelie rhetoricke / to affirme I saie / that which I manifestly denie . And althowghe it be more clearer then the sonne / that a smaller nomber maie better knowe one a nother / then a great : those which dwell nere one to a nother / then that dwell farre of / and scattered : those which meete oftener / then which meete seldomer : yet the A. dowbteth not to saie / that the contrarie of this is a knowen trwthe . Wher he alledgeth for profe / the often conference , and triall off euery one before they be receiued : For the firste / yt maie be easelie vnderstanded / that seinge yt is daungerous for them to meet together / godly politie doothe teache them / to breake their companies as soone as they maie conueniently . And therfore the publicke action ended / off preaching / prayinge / and receiuing the Sacramentes : the conference which may be / and is commonly in the churches peace / one withe another / throwghe feare off the daunger / which maie come off being seene man it together / is cut off . As for the knowledge by triall off those which are receiued into the churche / if he knewe that yt comethe onely off the reporte off twoo / or three / which giue testimony off those which are to be receiued : and that yt extendeth not to any vnderstanding gyuen to the churche / off his giftes either of teaching / or gouernment / but onely that he is a faithfull man : I saie if he knewe thes thinges / or knowing them woulde acknowledge them : there shoulde be no cause vppon confidence off that triall / to fasten such knowledge one of a nother , in a churche persequuted .

Before I further answer the D. reason / touching the change Diuis. 2. pag 177. Hosius de Sacram. ordinis cap. 54. of the manners of the Christians in times off peace / from that they were vnder persequution : vnderstand good reader / that this is the very reason off the archpapist Hosius / againste the election off the church : which affirmeth that there is greater grauitie / and constantie in the Christians vnder persequution / and therfore that this manner off election by the bishop / was browght in . nowe to Hosius / and the D. I answer / that when wickednes breaketh into open actions / then they are no more Hypocrites / but openly wicked / and suche as owght not onely be taken heed off : but without speedy amendement / remoued . I graunte yt is no shame to the churches to haue Hypocrites / for asmuche as the iudgement off man can not discerne them / and off them and none Math. 13. 29. other is the parable off tares / which forbiddeth weeding vntill the daie off haruest : and they are onely those which can not be rooted owte . But to saie that beside those which are corrupt in religion , yt is full off dronkardes , whoremongers , &c. Yt is more then euer S. Paule reproched any the moste diffigured churches / he wrote vnto . For how manie suche persones as be founde in her : so manie botches hath she / which doo not onely staine her bewtie / but put her in hazarde off her liffe . And if Sainte Paule for one vnclean 1. Cor. 5. 2 person / thowght that all the Corinthians had good cause of mourning : ryuers off teares in euery mans heade / are not sufficient for vs to bewaile / the estate which Maister D. telleth vs wee be in : which by his saying / haue fewe sober / fewe chaste / &c.

I leaue to the reader how euill the three places off Sainte Mathew / are patched vpp together : and how there is neuer a one off them / which proueth that he taketh in hande / that there be in the churche open offenders / which can not be rooted owte . I giue warning onely to the simple reader / that the A. beinge deceiued in interpretation off the parable off the sower / doo not also deceiue him . For there is nothinge les ment / then that where one hearethe the worde profitably , three doo the contrarie , which is bothe courious / and vncomfortable : onely he sheweth / that off fowre kindes off hearers / one onely receiueth fruict : but off the nomber off those which heare fruictfully / or otherwise / not a worde . And it maie be for anie thinge our Sauiour Christe setteth downe / that in some places / that one sorte of men which heare with fruict are moe in nomber / then all the other three which heare without fruict . Yf wee shoulde saie that there is no church where suche faultes be / or that for suche faultes we shoulde make a departure from the church : thes charges off Anabaptistrie which sounde so often / and so full in your mouth● / mighte haue place . But that it is an Anabap●istic●l cauil to saie / that the multitude and swarme off knowen / and open faultes / argue wante off good gouernment / and wholsome discipline in the churche : yow are neuer able to shewe / nether yowr selfe by argument / nor owte of Maister Bull. or any other godly writer . Shall there be no ende off this vnfaithful dealing ? Where in a syllable ys yt saide / that the gospell can not be syncerely preached where great corruption off manners dooth appeare : yet whilest yow confute this / Yow woulde make men belieue that wee affirme yt .

When I saie there be no knowen drunkardes / or whoremongers in the churche : I speake off that which shoulde be / vnto which meaning the tenure off my disputacion would haue led yow / if yow had bene willinge to follow . For yow opposinge that for a bar vnto the peoples election / th effecte off my answer was : that yt is not meete to take aduantage off this / that there be many suche dronkardes / and whore mongers : seinge they bothe maie / and owghte either be browght to repentance / and so are none suche as they were / or thruste owte of the churche / and so not hinder the election . This my meaning was cleare / and the manner of speache if it had beene simply considered / withowt circumstances restraining to this meaning / is such / as the scripture doth admit . As when Paul saithe / that the churchs of God haue no coustome 1. Cor. 11. 16. to contende : he setteth forth not that which alwaies cometh to pas but what owghte to be alwaies . For it may be that contention may continew in a church many yeres : and yet it not cease to be the churche of God . The prosperite of the Gospell / sheilded by authoritie of the Christian magistrate / draweth by no necessitie with it / suche aboundance of wicked as yow suppose . for althowghe hypocrisie may be more then vnder persequution / yet knowen wickednes / of whoredome / dronkennes / &c. may be easilier purged out Psa. 101. 8. Pro. 20. 8. off the church / vnder a Christian magistrate . So that the swarme off suche wickednes vnder the Christian magistate / more then when there was none / is not the faulte off the time / but off the gouerners off churche / or commen wealth / or bothe . As for hypocrites / I haue shewed that there is not so great daunger in them : consideringe that their owteward doinges are the same with the children off God / and the difference is onely in the harte . Which althowghe yow denie : yet my reason drawne of the nature off an hypocrite / yow doo quite passe by .

That which yow call the prosperitie , mighte well be called Diuis. 3. pag. 178. the crosse / and whip of the gospell : yf it drewe suche a taile off synne / as yow suppose . For if vnder a Christian Magistrate / either alwaies / or for the moste parte / not onely the nomber off hypocrites / but of barefaced / and knowen wicked / shoulde be multiplied : and not that onely / but the good them selues shoulde wax worse : that time mighte peraduenture after a sorte / be called the prosperitie of those which professe the gospel : but how the gospell maie be saide them to prosper / which is so manie waies plucked downe / I can not vnderstand . And this is cleane contrarie to the fruictes of peace / which the scripture declareth . The Prophet as soone as he Nah. 1. ca. 15. had spoken of peace / which shoulde be published amongest the Iewes : addeth that Iuda shoulde then kepe her solemne feastes , performe her vowes , because the wicked enemie off the churche , was cut off . Wherby he doothe not onely shewe / that the ende off the peace of the church / is to serue god more wholy then before : but also that the peace gaue them more commoditie off seruinge off God / then they coulde haue in time of persequution . And if yow replie that so it shoulde be / but it is not : the answer is / if it be not so / yt is throwghe the greate / and vnexcusable faulte off all / and gouernoures especiallie : which hauinge moe meanes to intertaine all godlines / suffer it to goe to wracke .

But that peace off it selfe is an aide to godlie increase / and confirmacion off the church : yt is manifeste / by that all the churches in Iurie , Galile , and Samaria , beinge in peace were edified , Act. 9. 31. and walking in the feare off God , were multiplied . Now if they in the time off peace multiplied / hauinge no further aide of the magistrate / then that he hurte them not : what condemnation shall yt be / if our churches which haue assistance off the magistrate / cannot vpholde them in that feare off God / but they muste fall into suche riote / as the A. supposeth ? And if multiplying off open wickednes / and decrease of former godlines were so generall / and so incident to the peace off the gospell / as yow pretende : there is no cause why wee shoulde praie so earnestly / and often for it / nai rather there shoulde be good cause / off praying againste it . For when it is giuen vs of God / partlie for our ease / and especially for the glorie of God in encrease of all vertue : the cheife parte which is the glorie off God / beinge by yow shutte owte : there is no cause why we shoulde praie for the other . Yowr reason of hauinge a better fealinge in the time off persequution , then in the peace of the gospell , is very insufficiente : especially to that yow vse it vnto / off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off persequution / then in peace . considering that those wicked which neuer were in persequution / nor haue that spirite which is often times sharpened / and quickedned by persequution : knowe notwithstanding the misteries of God / as the children of God them selues . And althowghe the persequution shoulde giue some aduancement to knowledge that waies : yet it hindreth more otherwaies / in that it letteth the often meetinges to heare the worde of God / wherby knowledge is bredd : in that also pouertie ( wher with it is continually yoked ) draweth many cares for this present life / for them / and theirs . Likwise continuall feare they be in / euen duringe the time of their meetinges for the worde off God ( enemie vnto the vnderstanding / and puttinge to flighte the powres of the minde / wherwith knowledge is gotten ) and also the often / and soudein shiftinges from place / to place : muste needes be a lett to that tainment off knowledge / in the word off God . Where yow call vpon answer vnto your reason : yow haue it / that the time off peace drawethe no more ignorance in the professors off the gospell / then the time of persequution : and therfore the difference between thes times in that poincte / to be euill assigned . I alledged also / that the elections off the bishoppes were so euill and of so vnfitte persones / that althowgh the election off the churche shoulde swarue muche : yet it can hardly choose worse / then the bishopes doo / wherunto yow answer not .

The distinction of being of the churche , and in the church , I browghte / and allowed of it : yet as thowgh yow had browght Diuis. 4. pag. 179. it / and I refused it / yow labour in confirmation of it . But that which needeth yowr helpe / and for proofe wherof I aske some testimonie of scripture / that Idolaters , and papistes are in the church , is not proued . As for dronkardes / and whoremongers / 2c . Yt is spoken off before : close papistes / and Atheistes which dissemble their wickednes / are in the nomber off Hipocrites / and therfore muste be holden to be in the church / vntil the Lorde discouer them . For professed Papistes / and Atheistes / which neuer made profession off the gospell / it is not needefull to waite for the sentence off excomnnication to cut them of / seinge they wer neuer of the church . If notwithstandinge their professed enemitie vnto the gospell , they should be accounted off the church , because they agree to heare the worde and receiue the sacrament with vs : then a Turcke / or a Iew professinge his Turkisme / or Iudaisme / if he be contented to heare the worde / and receiue the Sacrament / is so also to be accoumpted . Which if it be absurd / it can be no good reason to saie / that they owghte therfore to be holden off the churche / because they are in some respectes contente to he are the worde / and receiue the Sacramentes .

And I woulde gladly learne / where the Lord hath willed vs / so to caste awaie the vse of our iudgement / that when men make open profession that they are members off the bodie of the Pope / which is Antchriste / yet wee muste accounte off them as off members off Christe : or howe this is to iudge iustlie . Yow 7. Ioh. 14. are very vnfaithfull in reporting my wordes continually . I nether saie / that Hypocrites onely are in the church , and not of yt : and the place in the margent / I alleadge to another purpose then 1. Cor. 5. 12. yow affirme / that is / to proue that the papistes / and Idolaters beinge withowte / haue not to doo with the church / nor the churche with them . where yow woulde proue by those wordes / if any brother be an Idolater , that Idolaters maie be in the churche : yow muste vnderstand / firste that it is one case off him that hath giuen his name to the gospell / and afterward slydeth from that profession to Idolatrie : and another of him which neuer gaue it / but hath bene from his infancie an Idolater . For althowghe the firste can not be seuered from the church / withowt solemne sentence of excommunication / because by a publike profession off the trwth / he was once receiued into the bodie therof : yet there is not lyke reason off him / which was neuer so setled . And this difference Saint Paule dooth make / when he giueth leaue to a Christian to 1. Cor. 5. 11. haue to doo with an Idolater of the worlde / that is which hath not bene of the churche : and yet will not suffer him to haue to doo with one / which is famously knowen ( for so the the word signifieth ) 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . to be a brother . Wheruppon followeth / that forsomuche as our Idolaters professinge their poperie still / are not / nor can not be famously knowen for professors off the gospell : this place of S. Paule openeth no dore for them / to enter into the churche .

Furthermore yt muste be obserued / what kinde off Idolatrie yt is / which Saint Paule saithe maie fall into a brother / and yet he reteine the name of brother . This appeareth vpon the discourse 1. Cor. 8. & 10. he maketh in that Epistle / to haue bene onely a sittinge downe to eate at the feaste of Idolaters / made in honour of their Idoles / withowt any honour doone to idoles by sacrifice / or bodily worship / and withowt anie conscience of that meate more then of other . Which althowghe he proue a spice of Idolatrie : yet was yt one of the leasie / and lighteste kindes / and such as holdinge stil the foundacione off Christianitie / coulde not withowt obstinacie in it / cut from the church . Wherby falle the owte / that the papistes which in their Idolatrie rase the foundations of trewe religion / can not by that place / come into anie accounte off the church off God .

For the first place off Maister Caluin / that there are in the Church contemners off God , and which lyue dissolutely : if the S. had added the nexte wordes that suche owght with all diligence to be taken awaie by excommunication : he might haue bene as hamed / to alledge this sentence to so small purpose . The other that Saint Paul meaneth the absteining from a disordered 1. Cor. 5. 11. brother off priuate societie / and not of the publicke communion : yt is true in deede but to no purpose . For withal he confesseth / that the other owght to be seuered from the communion . But forasmuche as it is not in the power of a priuate man to excommunicate / that perteining ( as he saith ) vnto whole bodie off the churche / by whose consent yt owght to be doone / and yet in his power to kepe him selfe from his priuate societie : he concludeth against the Anabapt. which absteined from the holy communion if any liuing offensiuely were receiued / that it folowed not because S. Paul woulde haue one absteine from priuate familiaritie / therfore he would haue him absteine from the communion . Which is no parte off our question / and is too shamefully alledged / considering that the place making nothing to this question / striketh starcke dead another off his cawses / towching the sole excommunication of the bishopp . And althowghe it be owte off place / yet hauing gotten the booke / yt shall not be vnprofitable / to admonishe the reader off the S. vnfaithfull dealing in his former allegations off Maister Caluin / for where pa. 81. he to conclude that the discipline is not of the substantiall notes of the churche / alledgeth a sentence owt off this booke : beside that I haue shewed how euill he concludeth off his wordes / it is to be noted that in the same booke he affirmethe precisely / that the discipline is required to the substance off the church onely he denieth that which the Anabaptist . helde / that there was no churche / where there was no excommunication . Likewise pa. 90. where he would make vs beleue / that excommunication 19. Math is not by Maister Caluin iudgement vnderstanded off publicke offences / Mai. Caluins declareth onely that those priuate admonitions / doo not belonge vnto publicke offences : but that those publike offenders ought to be excommunicated / if they reste not in the churches Iudgement / and consequently first complainned of to the churche ( Which are two off the Ecclesiasticall censures / mentioned in that place off S. Mathew ) he dothe more then once or twise affirme . Now leuing the D. in his threchery let vs returne . if al were trwe yow alledge here ( as they are very vntrwe ) yet they helpe not . For yow will not denie / but dronkardes / whoremongers / papistes / &c. owghte ether to be driuen to repentance / or owte off the churche : which whether soeuer come to passe / taketh awaie the inconuenience yow alledge / againste the election off the church . So that onles yow meane to nourishe them in the churche / as bandogges to kepe owte this election : this barre againste it / is easely remoued .

It is appointed vnto the magistrate by the word off God / that he shoulde not onelie prouide that his subiectes liue paceably / one with another : but also and that especially / to see that they 2. Tim. 2. 2. hauing the trwe knowledge of God / maie serue him as he hathe prescribed . This waie off gathering them to the nexte parishes / seemed vnto me fitteste to be vsed in that case : if yow can shewe better / mine shall giue place . Onely therfore I made mention of it / to shewe that the impossibilitie which yow so often caste in the teeth of the reformacion / can haue no place : if they continewe vncorrigible / I haue before shewed that yt is the commaundement of God vnto the magistrate / to vse cutting / and burning / and nether to suffer God to be dishonored in them / nor the reste off his subiectes infected . If they can be discerned for dogges or swine , which are not onely filthie ( in which regarde I called dronkardes / &c. Swine ) but also treade the worde vnder their feete : then I graunte / he which hath that iudgement off them assured by the testimonie of the spirite of God / owghte not to teache them . But this commeth owte of time . For I made no mention off dogges / and the name off swine I gaue not to the papistes / but to filthie liuers : and yt ouerturneth yowr pourpose : for if they maie not heare the worde / muche lesse can they be off the church . The preuenting off an obiection / is no digression : whether yt bee friuolous , the iudgement shall bee with the reader .

I tooke the likeliest signification off yowr worde established : Diuis. 5. pa. 181. which is / surely grounded withowte remoue / and which hathe all the partes off a church : nowe I see that by ( established ) yow meane allowed by the magistrate . Althowghe I haue shewed before by storie / that there were churches then / which had maintenance of the magistrate : yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me / not helpeth yow / I wil not striue . speake of the church visible / standing off good / and euill / of the owtwarde gouernment of the church / which standeth in administring off the word / and Sacramentes / and exercise of all partes off church discipline : and that I haue shewed to haue all her partes / althowghe not all her ornamentes . Which I did not withowt reason annexed / againste which cometh nothinge but a bare affertion / and a charge off ignorance off that distinction , which I my selfe did first propounde . towchinge this that the cyuill magistrate is not the heade off the churche / yt falleth into the question of the Archbishop / where it shall be ( god willing ) handled .

That he saithe that the state off the churche was in the Apostles tyme popular : by his owne iudgement ( which gyueth the name vnto the forme of gouernment , of that parte which moste rulethe ) is vntrwe . for the State off the beste , did beare the greateste rule : considering that there were matters belonginge vnto the church doone by the eldershipp / wherat the people were not / nor coulde not by any conuenience be present / yet there was nothing in whiche the peoples Iudgement was required / wherin the Eldershipp was not bothe present / and president . And this saying off the D. that the people in the Apostels times , had to doo almoste in euery thinge : is directly contrarie to that he hath before discoursed . For to the Admo . and me opposing the places off the Actes / where Act. 1. 14 : 15. thinges were doone ether by voice / or consent off the church : his answer hath bene / that the churche had nothing to doo there / but onely in the election off the Deacons / and that popularitie he Act. 6. affirmeth to haue bene / not in respecte that the church was vnder persequution / as here in this place : but for a speciall cause off contention / then in the church . Now I would gladly knowe of Maister D. What are those places off scripture / wherby he will proue that the moste thinges in gouernment / were doone by consent off the people : if those places wee haue alledged / doo not proue yt . That which yow ad / off the conuenience that nothing shoulde be doone in the church , withowte the consent , and knowledge of the magistrate : yowr addition taketh nothing from the consent of the churche . For the magistrates consente / and the churches are not at warre : but one may / hathe / and dothe stande well with the other . Because the recytall of a 100. differences is vnprofitable : I leaue yt in the readers iudgement / howe trwly / and withowte bragge , or figure I haue spoken . But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet yowr cause shoulde be neuer the better / onles yow can shewe / that those differences pull with them / a necessitie off change off the forme off election : which yow nether doo / nor can .

That one churche shoulde admonishe another , and that there are Diuis . 6. Pag. 183. Diuis. 4. pa. 173 & pa. 175. many Hypocrites vnder persequution , is before shewed . Off wicked ministers which had their followers / and louers in the churches of God / which notwithstanding kepinge the profession off the gospell / were in daunger off the lawes of the contreis where they dwelte / is spoken off almoste throwghe all the epistles off Saint Paule . yea yt maie appeare throwgh owte the whole course of the ecclesiasticall stories / that many churches of Heretikes partly Arians / partly Nestorians / and especially of the Nouatians / were persequuted / and banished of heathen Emperours / together with the catholike church of Christe . And it appeareth plainly / by that which hath bene of both partes alledged owte of Cypr. that certein churches abowte him / did chuse vnmeet ministers . Therfore Maister D. doth wounderfully forget him selfe / when he saithe / that yt is not lyke that the churche in persequution will chuse an vnmeete , or wicked mynister or that they which suffer persequution for the gospell , doo yt allwaies off conscience , or off good conscience / wheroff the question is . And if he will admitte none off thes proses / yet if he stand vnto his exposition off the parable of the sower in the 13. of Sainct Mathew / forsomuch as ( according to his saying ) for one in the church which heareth profitablie , three doo the contrarie : yt muste follow that euen in the persequuted churche / there muste be thrise as manie euill / as good . Onles peraduenture he will saie / that our S. Christe spake that off the estate off the church in time off the ciuill magistrate / which was spoken off the whole estate off the churche / vnto the worldes end : and especially to that present churche / which was vnder the crosse .

Ys it trewe which yow heere affirme ? can yt not be otherwise in the time off persequution , but that churche offices muste be chosen by common consent ? Howe cometh then to passe / that yow denie the election Actes 1. and 14. to haue bene made with the consent off the churche ? How happeneth yt that yow affirme / that Timothe . and Titus off their owne authorities , withowt the consente ether off eldershipp / or people appoincted ministers vnto the churches , in Ephesus , and Creata ? that in Cyprians times ( which were times of persequution ) the election was made in some places withowt the people ? verily he had need be a verie kun̄ing ioiner / which should set the● together for the impossibilitie which yow imagine / yt is not such but that if the commoditie of the churche / and the institution off God had so suffred : the churches woulde haue submitted them selues / and their voices in their elections / vnto the order of one . And besides that christian humilitie / and loue off aduancing the trwth for which they had forsaken all / woulde haue let them to that submission there was Ecclesiasticall discipline to driue them vnto it . Onles they woulde rather quittethe church / which lightnes doothe not agree with the zeale / which yow ( for yowr aduantage ) ascribe vnto a persequuted church .

HEere he denieth that he hath saide , that the consent off the churche in Cap. 6. Diu. 7. p. 184. &c. the choise off the minister , can not stand with the time off the Christian magistrate . All the reasons which he alledged are to proue / that the election vnder a Christian magistrate / can nor be safelye / and conuenientlie committed vnto the churche : and euen here he saith / it is in thes times pernicious , and hurtfull . But that which can not be safely / and conueniently doone / owghte not be doone : muche les that which is pernicious / and hurtfull . Therfore if yow thinke as yow speake / yow think as I haue saide : that the churches election can not stand / with the time of A Christian magistrat . And your salue wherwith yow woulde plaster yt / that the ciuill magistrate maie ordeine so if he liste , is nothing worth . For if it be daungerous / if yt be inconuenient ( as yow say ) to committe the election to the churche : he owgte not althowge he woulde / giue it into her handes .

Where yow conclude that yt was in powre off the ciuill magistrate to order that matter / because the Emperours made lawes off the election , which they woulde not haue doone , yff yt had bene ordered by the worde off God : yow are to farre wyde . For wee reade that Aza made a lawe / that who soeuer did not seeke the Lord / should die . Chron. 2. 15. 13. And there are lawes made with vs that men shall heare the worde off God / and receiue the sacramentes : and yet thes thinges are commaunded of God / and vnchangable : nether is yt at the pleasure off any magistrate to order them otherwise . Yf the reasons which Musc. bringeth for conformacion off the election off the churche / can be answered / then I will leaue them / and followe his authoritie : otherwise I accounte that althowghe he wrastel with it with his lefte hand / yet he vpholdeth yt with his righte .

T. C. concealed nothing subtilely , in leauing owt that the ministers owght to be blameles : he lefte owte that which made nothing ether for / or againste the pourpose . If the A. had considered what I proue owt of this place : ether he should haue omitted this / or spoken yt againste his conscience . For I propounded onelye / that the election off the churche / was both in the times of the Christian magistrate / and confirmed by them : and the D. can not denie / but this place proueth that fully . whether it be according to the doctrine of the Apostles / or no : I shewed before . Therfore this disputation is with your selfe / and with nothing which I set downe . And if I had so set it downe / whether the decree off the Emperour would haue borne yt owt / considering that the sentence which I lefte / owghte to be shut in a parenthesis : I leaue yt vnto the iudgement of the reader . As for the reasons which are vsed for that pourpose / the one that he would haue said decre● , and not wee decree : is answered before . Thother of propounding three , owt of which one should be knowen not practised at any tyme by the Apostles : is not sufficient to proue / that the Emperour did not set before him / their example : seing that in the principall poinctes / and causes off the election ( amongest which the chusers are the efficient ) he kepte him selffe vnto the election of the Apostles . Yea if it be well considered / yt shall be easely perceiued / that he stucke too curiously / and precisely vnto the election Actes 1. whilest as there were two sett vp / of which one should be taken : so in a grater multitude he would haue three / out of which he would drawe one . And althowgh the imitacion of the doctrine off the Apostles / were onely as yow would haue yt / that the moste pure should be taken : yet yow can not denie / but the Emperour tooke this to be the best way / to haue most incorrupt ministers : that the election should be made by the inhabitantes off the citie . Howbeit because I propounded onely to proue / that elections by the church haue bene confirmed by Emperours : I will not striue with him in this point / because I will stop vp the holes as muche as may be / wherat he breaketh owt alwaies / from that which is in question .

Yt were an euill interpretation / to expound the inhabitantes off the cytie / the cheife off the citie : especially considering that the decree of other Emperours which followed / ordeined that the minister should be chosen by all the people . And considering that the Nouelles in latin / are corrupte in many places : yt is vnreasonable to expound the Code / and other lawes by them / especially with such open violence . And yt may be that the translator in steed off the heades of families / put the heades off the citie : but for this also I will not striue . What ether against my cause / or for yowres / conclude yow off that the Metropolitan ordeined one off the three , which were chosen after that sort ? Likewise what gaine yow / if ( which is vntrue / or very doutefull as that which hath autoritie off bothe sides ) a man should accord yow / that Charles the great , was Emperour of the French , and not off the Duch ? Thes are nothing but baites to draw from the cause / which yow would so faine shifte yowr handes of . The shelter also yow seke in those wordes ( according to the canons off that diocese ) will not holde owt the whether . For although it might be therby gathered / that there were seuerall Ceremonies in the elections off the dioceses : yet it is plaine by his wordes / that the elections were throwgh owt , made by the church : which is that we desire .

Because yow busie yowr selfe so much to proue / that this was not decreed by autoritie of the word of God / althowgh yt be not that which I tooke in hand to proue : yet the wordes off that decree proue yt fully . And albeyt he saied not according to the rules of the Apostles , yet he saith that in effect . For in saing that the church should vse that election in the name , and authoritie off god : what is yt els / but that god hath so ordeined : And in that he calleth yt the honor of the church , which he giueth not him selfe / but assenteth vnto : he declareth yt incident to the church . And what a reason is this / Th emperour for bad that any man shoulde spoile the churches of their elections : therfore it was in the Emperours powre , to take awaie the election from the churches ? Which is in this diuision for feare of forgetting / fowre times repeted : and vnworthy once to be confuted / as I haue before declared . And as that which the A. alledgeth off the rest of the decree / maketh nothing to proue / that the election off the church is in the Emperours powre : so that which immediatly foloweth / which he hydeth in ( &c. ) doth manifestly proue / that he helde yt for grounded of the word off God / that the churches should haue the election off their mynisters . For he addeth / Because we haue bene tawght by the holie fathers , that this thing ( that is to saie the taking awaie off the election from the church / as the D. himselfe expoundeth yt ) is most greuous synne . If therfore it be greuous synne to spoile the church 1. Iohn . 3. 4. of this honor / and synne is defined the breach of the law off god : yt followeth that the Emperour toke yt for a lawe of God / that the church should chuse her minister .

And if I had bene bente vppon that poincte : I could haue cited diuers testimonies / which Illyricus vseth / wherby this off the vnchangeable necessitie off the election by the church / is confirmed . Lib. 4. instit ca. 4. sect. 11. 5. cha. 2. se . As that Leo the firste affirmeth / that no reason suffereth that he should be bishop , which is not chosen by the people : alledged / and pressed against the Papistes off Maister Caluin to the same pourpose . Which place how violently / and vnfaithfully yt is wrested off the D. in the end of this treatise shall be considered . Also that he alledgeth off Leo the fourth / and Celestine which confirmed the same ordinance with this testimonie . it is not conuenient , and yt is againste reason yt should be otherwise . Likewise owt off the epistles off the Archbishop off Reines in Fraunce / who diuers times vseth this saying / he owght to be chosen of all , whom all must gyue obedience vnto . Last off all a whole treatise owt of the second booke of Cusanus : which proueth of diuers places out off the scripture / Cyprian / and canon Lawe : that yt is no constitution off men / but the lawe off God / that the minister should be chosen off the church : and that whosoeuer doth not enter into the church by that means , entreth not in by the doore , but is a these and a murtherer . Thes I would haue browght at large / if I had not contented my selfe with proofes owt of the scripture / for the necessitie off yt : which I here haue shortly set downe / because I see the D. more afraied off the iudgement off the auncient church / then of the scripture . so that althowgh yt be a slender buckler to shild him selfe / that the constitutions in that behalfe make no mention off any grownd owt off the word of god ( wheras he should rather haue shewed that they protested in their lawes off the indifferencie / againste the necessitie off it ) : yet euen that buckler also is by diuers Testymonies / taken from him .

Yt is a poore falsifying off Platina , which is nothing but change Diuis. 8. pag. 186. 187. of one worde for another / without any gaine at al. For the Emperours commendacion serueth me as well / to proue that the election of the church was alowed of / and confirmed of the ciuill magistrate : as if he had commaunded yt . The second place off Platina proueth nothing les / then that it was in the Emperours powre to change the election : seinge that he nether made / nor altered any forme off Election / but onely off two Elections by the people / mainteined that which was lawfull . Seinge also Platina / supposeth no right off makinge the election in the Emperour / but by the resignation off the Bishopp : if that place proue any thing / or thother after alledged owte off Bale / and Barnes : they proue that yt was in the Bishoppes hande / to order yt at his pleasure . Which howe vntrwe yt ys / maie be considered off that which hath bene before spoken / againste the sole election off the Bishopp : and off that which is here confessed / that the Bishopp of Rome began to vsurpe , that which belonged not vnto hym . For iff he encroched vppon the Emperours right : no meruaile althowgh he brake in vppon the possession off the church .

Where he saith / yt is to be noted that the libertie for the people to chuse , was graunted by Charles the greate : note also tha● that note / is worth nothing . For where he would haue yt seeme / that he was the firste that gaue that libertie : he is confuted manifestly by the wordes off Charles / a litle before alledged : who speaketh of that election / as of a thing accustomed of ould / and doth not make any newe lawe therof / but gyueth his assent vnto those which were made . The wordes yow ascribe to me ( that the election perteineth not to the Emperour ) I haue not : I kepte the very wordes of Platina / and nether added / nor tooke awaie from them . Where yow would seme to confirme owt of Platina in the life of Iohn the 13. by the worde ( creating ) that the Emperour chose Leo : yt is but an abusing of the reader . For Platina in the next chapter sauing one / where he speaketh of Leos election / declareth that that creation was nothing els / but a confirmacion of the election made by the people / and clergie .

Therfore I saide the Emperours permitted the elections Diuis. 9. pag. 187. vnto the churches , because by powre / and violence they might haue taken them from them : wherfore yt followethe not / that he mighte withowt breache off Gods lawe , take them from the churche . When yt is saide in the stories / that the Emperous permitted vnto the churches the exercise off their religion : maie yt therby be concluded / that it was at their pleasure / to haue without offence of God restrained them of that libertie ? verely I am ashamed to confute / which the D. is not ashamed to obiecte . Yet the testimonies alledged / make no mention of this word ( permission ) wherby this aduantage ( yf yt were anie ) should betaken .

Yow might easelie haue forgiuen me this fault / where the iniurie which I doo is a gainst my selfe . For where I might haue 10. Diuis . pag. 188. vsed the authorie off the Centuries / to the vtter reiection off the canon off the councell off Laodicea ; I vsed yt onely to bringe the canon into suspicion / whether yt were made then or no. If I had had the booke before me / yow might well thinke I would not haue doone my selfe that wrong . As for the Canon I haue shewed bothe by the conference off other councels / and authoritie / of Caluin / and Beza / that yt can not be vnderstanded to seclude the people from the election / but tendeth onely to the directing In the 4. cap 7. di. pa. 193. of them / by the foreiudgemente of the elders . And wheras to the authoritie off Calu. which I allege owt of the Actes / he opposeth his authoritie in the Institutions : besides that faulte which he reprocheth me with / off opposinge the authors vnto them selues : the vntruth off it is shewed in the former place / neither can the A. haue excuse off his moste vnfaithfull dealing . For as well in the edition he foloweth / as in the later : this iudgement touching the canon / is not once / but twise set downe / not simply / but with confirmacion off the decree off Leo the firste / and that in the same section / owt off which he hath fetched thes wordes . If he will stil speake against the sonne / and denie that which he doth so plainly affirme / touching the vse off the churches election onely in the Apostel● times , and times off persequution : I can doo no more / but leaue it to the iudgement off the reader / referring him to the places where he saith / that this election endured vnto Cyprians times , and to his whole disputation wherby he goeth aboute to proue / that this election can by no means be conuenient for the prosperitie off the gospell .

The exception he maketh againste the peace off the church / in the time off Constantine / because Maxentius , and Lycinius persequuted yt , is nothing to the purpose . For Albeit the churches vnder them / were in persequution : yet those vnder Constantine were quiet . And euen vnder Licinius the church was at quiet for a time . Euseb. 9. lib : 9. ca. For Constantine , and Lycinius made a moste perfecte , and full decree for the peace off the church : and by their letters sente to Maximinus ( which was then the persequutor in the East ) procured peace there . So that the peace was generall throwgh the churches . And althowgh that peace was in certein partes broken of : yet yt appeareth / that both Lycinius Maxentius / and Maximinus being taken awaie / Constantine obtained dominion 1. li. Socr. 1 cap. 1. Theod. cap. 1. Diuis. 11. pag. 189. Theod. 1. lib. ca. 8. ouer the whole empire / and pourchased peace vnto the whole church .

When the Nicene Councell alloweth not off the election off the clergie / vnles the person chosen be both worthy / and likewise chosen by the people : can there be any plainer wordes inuented / to confirme that I haue set downe ? And where he would darken so cleare a light / by wordes which saie that those thinges belonged peculiarly to Aegypte , and to the church of Alexandria , as if this order off election by the church / were not holden good in other places : he dooth but as a man which hath made shipwracke / snatcheth at euery thing he can laye holde off / at all aduenture . For Ariu● heresie bearing sway in those partes / draue the councell to enter into certaine peculiar considerations off them : but that the election off the church / was a peculiar thinge vnto those prouinces / yt is too absurde . For what wisdome off the councell shoulde yt be / to permitte that vnto the people in those places / which were moste corrupte with Arianisme : yf other places of the worlde / which were sounder then they / had not that priuiledge ? And if the foresaied wordes / cause this condition so that the people chuse , to be a peculiar thing vnto those places : then yt followeth / that thother condition which is ioined with yt / was likewise / that he which was chosen should be meet to be chosen : which no man that hath not loste his senses / will euer saie . So that wee still haue the councell off Nice / confirming absolutly the election off the church . As for Grineus he maketh nothing to this matter . for the right off the clergie , shutteth not owt the churches . Diuis. 12. pag. 190 : li. 9. c. 14.

The wordes off the tripartite storie / are as I haue alledged / and the wordes of Theodoret haue nothing to the contrarie : onely the D. must saie something . Thouching the next diuision I leaue yt to be iudged / whether I haue shewed that which the A. saith I haue not .

It is neuer a whit the better / althowgh those yow alledge / 14 Diuis . pa. 101. and all the world should allow of that sentence yow bring forth / vnder Ambroses credit . I vsed no contempte towardes Ambrose / nether haue I so much as reiected him : onely that sentence as blasphemns against the gouernment off the Apostels / Idetested / and yt owght to haue bene mainteined by confutation off reasones I alledged / and not by bare autoritie . For yf that had bene enoughe to wype awaie that place : I had a great deale more manifester againste yt / then yow be hable to alledge for yt . For Vpon the 4. Ephes. of that place off Ambrose Caluin writeth thus . As for those thinges which are redde in the commentaries off Ambrose , they are too childis he , and vnworthy of Ambr. And yow doo but coulor this matter with the names off Georgius / &c. Which what they saye / I reporte me to those that haue the bookes to see : assured notwithstanding / that if they had any thing for yow / yow woulde haue made them speake .

If yow would haue doone symply / yow should haue named 3. li Eccl. Hier. c. 7. Pighius / who proueth diuersitie of gouernment off the church / as yow doo by this counterfaite place of Amb. As for the shifte wherwith the D. Would helpe it / that yt was permitted to al men to preach , and minister the sacramentes , but not withowt a calling : yt is spoken witthowt reason . For what needed there / or howe can there be a calling / when all were vsed to the seruice of the ministrie ? Seing that calling is a seperation from other by election / and election is choise of some / with leuinge off other some : And the churche of Christe is a bodie standing off manie members / and not all an eie / or 1. Cor. 12 ▪ 14. any other one member . And for that there were manie in the time off the Apostles / which had not ether knowledge / or dexteritie to teach : yt can not be saide without making the Apostles / Authors of horrible confusion / that they called all men to the ministerie off the worde / and sacramentes . That which is browght owt off Bull. and Sleidan / is but filling vpp of paper . For they condemne not the Anabaptistes / because they chose their ministers : but that they excluded the authoritie of the magistrate .

Your reproches heere are answered . I gaue yow as readie a waie to finde those testimonies / as I had giuen me . If yow tooke Diu. 15. p. 193. yt owte off Musculus yowr selfe / then mighte haue noted the place : if yow had yt of others / yow should haue named yowr collector / as I did mine . Heere is occasion taken to repeate / and translate a great deale owt of Musculus / but nothing to purpose . For I denie not / but that he is off Iudgement / that a man constrained by corruption off tymes / maie departe from the Apostolicall election shuttinge owt the people : but I denie that that is warranted by substantial argumentes . Beside I haue shewed / that heere in wordes against vs / in his reasons he standeth for vs . Which shall beste be vnsterstanded / in that the D. being not hable to lyfte the whole / hath mangled them / and snatched here and there a worde : if peraduenture vntwisted he might deale with them / which otherwise he coulde not breake . For where I cited owt off Musculus that yt is a boundage vnto the church , to haue their minister thruste vppon yt withowt choise off the people : he answereth / that subiection to magistrates is no bondage : wherin he toucheth nether heauen / nor earth . For he should haue answered as vnto Musculus / and not as vnto me : considering that I alledged that owt off him / off whome he hath taken all his reasons . And therfore the note off Anabaptisme , which he markethe all those with / that saie yt is bondage vnto the churche , to haue their pastor thrust vppon them : lighteth vppon Musculus / which thus speaketh / and affirmeth yt constantly .

Then his answer is abegging off that in question / when he saith / that subiection in lawfull matters is no bondage : yt being in question whether yt be lawfull for the magistrate / to take awaie the election from the church . To that also owt of Musculus / that the minister chosen by the church maie rule with a good conscience / and the people obey vnto him / easelier / then when he cometh in againste their will : and thervppon concluded / that forasmuche as that manner of election is to be followed / which maketh moste to assure the mynisters conscience of his calling / and that the people should be more obedient vnto his doctrine / therfore that onely was to be holden : his answer is / that he maie be assured otherwise , and that the people otherwise will obey . which if yt were true / as yt is not / is not sufficient : for that he is not so easelie assured / nor they so easely obey .

And where as he saith / that he which is assured off an inward calling , need not to doubte of his owtward : yow should vnderstand that the assurance of the inward calling / dependeth a great parte of the owtward . for allbeyt the sprite of God worketh that assurance : yet he worketh by the owtward means of the iudgement of the elders / and off the church / touching his aptnes for the ministrie : whileste he considereth / that that calling is not the calling off men / but off God throwgh the ministerie of men . Nether is there any one ( excepe those which are called extraordinaryly ) which can haue assurance off any inward calling / but by the means off owtwarde . For if he were assured that God had called him / without the calling off men ; he owght to obey his voice / althowgh men would not call him . So that this not distinction / but seperation off the knowledge off an inward calling / from the owtward / is not onely absurde : but confirmeth the Anabaptistes / which boste off an inward calling / where no calling off the church wente before .

That he addeth / yf yt be according to the forme of that church where he is called : is but a begging off the question . For it being in question whether euery calling that any church vseth / be lawfull / and seing the minister can not be assured off his owtward calling / oneles yt be lawfull : it followeth that he which presumeth one / must needes presume the other . Vppon Musculus saying / that the thrustinge off the minister vppon the church without her election , draweth bondage , &c. and the D affirming / that suche elections are meet for the church , vnder the christian Magistrate : I concluded that therby great iniurie was doone to the Christian Magistrate / giuen off God not onely to preserue / but to encrease the churches libertie . To all which firste the D. answereth / that he giueth nothing to the magistrate but which belongeth vnto him , and that yt is the magistrates right to vse that kinde of appoincting off ministers , which he thincketh good : which is a grosse begging off that in controuersie .

Secondly he saith / that the pastors had neuer better cause to obey their pastors , neuer les cause to complaine off bondage , and constraint , then nowe when the pastors are chosen without the consente off the churches : which as it is barely saied / hath no reason to leane vppon / is confuted by common sense : so it is directly contrarie to that Musculus his author / affirmeth in the wordes before alledged . Onely for the matter off libertie / he alledgeth that the true libertie of the church , consisteth in libertie of conscience , and freedome from false doctrine : wherunto I answer / that it consisteth in them / but not onely . for to vse assemblies for the ministring of the worde / and Sacramentes / &c. is a libertie of the church : And they are not myne / but Musc. wordes : which calleth the election by the church / a libertie , and the other a bondage of the church . I imagine not the corrupt estate to be in the lawes , and goūernment off the Christian magistrate : but contrariwise giue that vertue to his godly gouernment / that the estate off religion maie be easelie pure with him : which can be hardly / or not without great daunger / pure without him . Yow if not in wordes / yet in deede / make the gouernment off the christian magistrate , alwaies fraught with dronkardes , Idolaters , whoremongers / Atheistes / &c. pa. 176. & 178. which was not so before he entred : which is nothing els / then to make him Lorde of misrule / and in steed of a noursing father / a fosterer of synne : which is the iniurie I complaine off .

Where yow saie / that it is commendation vnto the magistrate to correcte such disordered persons : yow saie well / but smally to the pourpose / smally to your aduantage . For if the church hath by benefite of the Christian magistrat / besides her owne censures / his helpe off ciuill punishmentes for repressing synne : she hauing better meanes to weed oute the wicked than before / maie be more easely discharged of those vnprofitable burdens . I haue not therfore transferred the faultes off men vnto the gouernement : but yow haue laied to my charge / that which your felfe faulte in / and I before confuted . The forme off election in the Apostles tyme , is not chaunged by the magistrates confirmacion . For beside that that is properly no parte off the election / but a thing which followeth yt : this right off confirmacion of elections / was in the Apostles . times . And althoughe the practise was not generall / yet there being euen in in their times some Christian magistrates / as appeareth by that which hath bene spoken : there can be small doubte / but this forme off election had in certeine places / euen during the Apostles times / his approbation . If it had not / yet the forme theroff is no more changed therby : then the forme of preaching / and administring the Sacramentes / when the magistrate did not allowe of them / differeth from that which is nowe / when he mainteineth them . so appeareth that the magistrates confirmation / standeth without breache of the Apostical forme of election : which he denieth .

Thes trifling questions here / albeit moste vnworthy / yet are In the 4. diu . p. 163 answered almoste all before . And if there were a legion moe / they are not onely confuted / in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magistrate / hath bene vsed more then ●00 . yeares together : but also by the D. owne wordes / wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleasure / so to order yt still . For if there were such inconueniences / and absurdities as he imagineth : how hath the practise continued so longe / bene thowght good by so many good Emperours / and so many learned men in all those ages ? Or if all they were a sleap / or of so shorte sighte / that they could not see thes inconueniences / which the D. hath espied : how commeth yt to passe / that he leaueth yt in the magistrates pleasure / to establishe this order encombred with suche inconueniences , and absurdities ?

For the chalenges wherby he would giue to vnderstand / that I haue not faithfully alledged Musculus : the firste is / that I affirme that he wente aboute to defend the election vsed where he was by this , that it approched to the election of the primatiue church , which he saith is vntrue . But the reason wherwith I confirme yt / that Muscu . saithe yt vavs made not by one minister , but by al , by the voices of the Senate , where some nomber off the people were : He toucheth not . The second that I call the choise off the minister by the churche the Apostolicall forme : yet they are not my wordes / but Musculus his authors / which calleth yt In the title of the Minist. the oulde , the fytteste , the deuine , the Apostolicall , and lawfull election .

Where he saith / that Musculus dooth not call the other elections , forced : I woulde gladly knowe / what difference there is betwene forced , and thruste vpon . For Musculus in the same tytle / maketh Obtrudi . all one a mynister thruste vppon the church / and a minister which is not chosen off the church / in thes wordes . The forme off election vsed in the Apostles times , is conformable to the libertie , and priuiledge off the church , wherof Cyprian made mention : and that forme off choise , wherby men began to be thrust vppon the people off Christe being not chosen off yt , dooth agree to a church which is not free , but subiecte to bondage . Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Musc. Iudgement be not wholy for vs : yet the reasons which he alleadgeth for this cause / are suche as can not be shaken . Now I will further shew / that as there is some disagreement betwene ours / and his Iudgement : so there is further distance / betwene hym Titulo de Ministr. elect . and the D.

First therfore he saithe / that as the election by the church endured vntill the time off Christian magistrates : so the election made by the church / and confirmed by the christian magistrate / endured vntill that time / that the bishoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte / both from the Emperour / and the people their right in the election / tooke it all to him selfe . The D. denieth this stoutly . Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off elections by chusinge vnmeete persons / or by corruption throwghe giftes / or parciall fauour / to beginne then especially : when the election taken from the people / cam into the bishoppe of Rome / and his suffragans handes . The D. cleane contrary / that thes disorders were especially / in the elections by the people : and beste auoided / when the election is called to the will / and becke off one bishoppe . Thirdly Musc. maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election / when yt is made of the prince : but maister D. saith / that yt is in the princes powre to make election off ministers him selfe if he will / or committe yt to others iff he liste . Fourthly Musc. helpinge him selfe off the authoritie off Ierome / saith that there was no election in poperie : becawse they were made without the knowledge off the people / and condemneth also the election of the bishopes made by the Canons / for the same cause . But M. D. saith yt is a moste conuenient / and sufficient election : which notwithstandinge in that poincte / is all one with the election in poperie . Last off all / wherin ( lieth a great weight of this controuersie ) he dooth not saie simply / that this forme off choise by the church is vnmeete / and inconuenient for this age off he churche : but that it coulde not be by and by / and out of hand restored : and after a litle / that it could not be in al churches / by and by restored . Wherby he gyuethe to vnderstand / that in some places yt might be forthwith restored : and in other / all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe / withall conuenient speed . So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended : yet Pigghius / and Hosius be his storers .

Here cometh to shewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche / wheron the D. heareth hym selfe so much : which pag. 139. Bull. vpo 1. Tim. 4. ( as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth ) is this . After he had shewed that in all lawfull ministeries off the worde / there is required that with innocencie of life / he shoulde be learned / then chosen accordinge to the worde off God / thirdly after he is chosen / and presented to the church / haue imposition of handes : he addeth / Heruppon the Tigurine church , hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popishe bishoppe , chuseth off the learned , and off the ministers , off the Senators , and off the councell off the 220. that is to saie off the common people : which out off the learnedest , and honestest deacons , should present certeine that are to bee made Bishoppes , vnto the Senate , and people . Off which when the Senate , and people haue chosen one : they sende him vnto the church ouer which he is set , and with him a counseiller which doth commend him vnto his church . Then the cheifest off the bishoppes off that citie , or other place where this newe bishop muste be , maketh a Sermon , and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe , layinge on his handes , commendeth the church vnto him . Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cause / and openly fighting against the D. vppon that I haue before noted / of the election of the churches of Berne / I leaue to be considered .

ALthowghe the D. ( as his vse is ) speaketh off one thinge so Cap. 7. Diuis. 1. pag. 197. often / and that in the same diuision / and with spaces put betwene / so that yt is harde to giue answer with any conuenient vnderstandinge off the reader : yet I will as well as I can / referre his scattered sayinges to certeine heades . Wheroff the firste is / that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe , and Titus , that the election belonged vnto one man : Wheruppon he chargeth me / with willfull deprauinge off his answer . Yt muste be therfore considered / if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe . The Adm. saithe / in the primitiue church no minister was placed in the congregation but by consente off the people , but nowe that authoritie is giuen to the bishoppes handes alone : the D. answereth by the place off Timothe / and Titus . Now this beinge a commaundement / and by his iudgement both directed onely to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishoppes : yt followeth that he hath taught / that Sainct Paule commaundeth that they / and in them all bishoppes / shoulde onely chuse . Wherby are condemned all election by the church / as those which haue intruded vppon the bishoppes possession .

Where he saith / that the Adm. dothe coulorably affirme , by thes wordes th autoritie is gyuen to the bishopp alone , &c. that the right off orderinge ministers doth at no hand apperteine vnto the bishopp : I would knowe what word there is heere / where this coulor is to bee seene : and what light he is able to giue vs / to make yt appeare . The other sentence wherwith he woulde proue yt / followeth after / nether was he come vnto yt . Yf he did therfore confute that : it is as straunge as iff a man shoulde shutte off / and spende his arrowes / or euer he come within the reach off his enemie . And I thinke there is no example off suche confutation / onles he had coupled that place with this / and comparinge them together / sett vpon them both at ones . beside that it is Absurde / that where the Adm. heere spake off the election : he answereth off admission .

Here cometh to be considered the A. dealinge in the end off the booke / where ( charged with vnfaithfullnes for that as in this pa. 796. place / he would haue in synuated / that the Adm. would haue the people chuse onely ) to proue hym selfe giltles / he alledgeth a place of the Adm. wherin yt is said / Then the election was made by commen consent off the whole church . To this answer I rep●lied / that it was his ouersight / that he tooke the people which is but a parte of the church / to be al one with the church which is the whole / conteininge as well gouernours of the church / as the people , in which replie the D. crieth owte off manifest falsification . Why so ? forsooth because I lefte owte this worde whole : that is to saie / because I spared hym / and kepte backe a peece of his folie / and that with disaduantage off that which I pretended to proue . For the word church simply set downe / doth comprehended as well the gouernours / as the people : howe much more doth it comprehend them / when this worde whole is added ? And if it were falsely concluded off him against the Adm. that they would haue the ministers to be called / allowed / and placed off the people / because they saide / that the election was made by commen consent off the church : how much more is yt falsely concluded of thes wordes off the Adm. the election was made by consente off the whole church ? Thus appeareth that the D. together with his diuinitie / seemeth to haue loste his commen sense : yt is time therfore to carie him owte off the schole to some other place / iff peraduenture by some sharper discipline / he might gather vpp him selfe againe .

In the same place also / vpon that I shewed that in proper speach / the church / and people differed / hauing there declared that difference to be / in that the church is the whole / and the people a parte theroff ▪ this complainer off falsification saithe / that I seeme to seperate the people from the election of the ministers , for that I will not haue the worde church in the Adm. comprehend the people : which is manifestly againste that I set downe . For I precisely reprehended hym for that vppon the worde church , vsed off the Admon . he woulde haue mainteined his false insinuation againste them / that the election should perteine to the people onely : consideringe that the word church cited off him / was the whole : and the people one parte / and necessarily comprehended vnder it . This is not onely falsifyinge / but flat facynge .

Nowe to retourne backe / I aske what he needed twife in this diuision / in so many / and greuous wordes complaine off corrupte dealinge ? seinge him selfe flatly affirmeth / asmuch as I saie of him / and otherwise can not mainteine his cause . The truth is / that he absteined then from the wordes electinge , and onely , bycause he sawe he had nothinge to mainteine them : which nowe by my replie / he was driuen to put downe / or els to forsake his cawse . Wherin as he dissenteth from the trwth : so he is driuen to haue a newe combat with him selfe / in that he heere maketh yt indifferent / and at the discretion of the church in tyme of persequution / to make elections ether by one / or by the multitude : which is contrary to that he hath before in thes wordes . Lastly in time of Diuis. 6. pa. 183. persequution when they haue no magistrate , they be all equall , nether is one bound to obey another by any ciuill lawe : none hath cheiff , and especiall care ouer the reste , as magistrate to compell : wherfore yt can not be otherwise then , but that such offices should be chosen by common consente . Where he alledgeth Zuing. and Bull. owt of place / and contrary to the title of his chap. to proue the callinge of certeine by one Apostle : In diui . 2. pag. 156. because they be Euangelistes which wee haue no vse off / and for that I haue shewed / that they both are clearly of this Iudgement / that the minister owght to be chosen with consent off the church : I will not much busie my selfe with this matter . But althowgh the Apostles did send thes Euangelistes off their Embassages / to knowe howe the churches did / and such lyke thinges as required no tariance / nor execution off any set ministrie in the churches wherunto they where sent : yet that they euer set them to rule any congregation by their priuate autoritie / is not to be estemed . wheroff this is an apparant reason / that Timothe was not set ouer the church off Ephesus by Saint Paule onely / seinge that Paule confesseth that he receiued imposition off handes / 1. Tim. 4. 14. by the eldership . Thother also here mentioned beinge Euangelistes / it is like the order vsed in one / was in thother . Nether doo the wordes I lefte the at Creta , proue it . for he doth not saie / that he ordeined him : and if he had / yet it muste be vnderstanded / that he did ordeine him as he had doone in other churches / with consente off the church .

And that this is not my iudgement / yt maie appeare by that I haue alledged owt off Caluine / and Musculus / in the former booke / and Bez. in this . nether could Bull. be thought to haue here Pa. 40. Diuis . 4. Pa. 135. Diuisi . 2. pag. 156. such meaning / as the D. giueth him : that the Apostles alone should sett ouer the churches ministers / as appeareth by that I haue alledged . So that onles he will make Bullinger contrary vnto him selffe : thes wordes that Paule / and Peter called certeine / can not be vnderstanded off placinge them ouer any congregation / no further then being cheife in that action / they directed the iudgement of the churches . there remaineth zuinglius / which I meruaile the D. will charge me with / seinge he himselffe will not stande to him / in the place which he hath alledged . For that which he hath lefte owt / off Mathias chosen by the whole church : is directly againste that / which he hath in diuers places before affirmed .

After many vaine wordes againste the replie vnto the places off Timothe / as that it is against th authoritie off learned writers , against the whole course off the Epistell , againste the circunstance off the place : he alledgeth that the moste off the preceptes conteined in that epistell , doo properly perteine vnto Timothe , as he is a bishop . Which is vntrwe / especially in that sense he taketh a bishop / which the Apostels neuer knewe off : for there shal be scarse two sentences found in the whole epistle / which agree not to euery pastor . And set aside those whiche concerne teachinge / there are very fewe not commen with him / vnto an elder which onely gouerneth . Beside diuers belonging vnto the whole church / as well as vnto him : and some rather to other partes off the church / then vnto him , yet iff the moste shoulde properly belonge vnto him : howe can he proue that the sentence off not layinge one off handes rashly / doth onele belonge vnto him ? he hath cyted many to proue that Saint Paule saith / yt doth belonge vnto the bishop , which is not denied : but that yt doth onely belonge by this place off Saint Paule / which is denied / he hath not one . Nay diuers off his authors heere alledged / haue the contrarie off that he pretendeth to proue by them . For Bull. I haue saide . Calu. denyinge that ether Paule / or Timothe did any thinge in elections / withowt the consent off the church / towching the bare ceremonie off layinge on the handes / he dowteth whether yt were doone by one / or many . And Ierome althowgh he saie / that the ordinacion belonged to the bishop yet I haue shewed in the former booke / that he confesseth that that was by no order of God / or rule of the Apostles ( by which he confesseth that the bishopps were equall vnto the reste of the elders ) but onely by constitution off men . Therfore he is vntrwely cited / to confirme that by this place off the Apostell / the bishoppe hath ether the election / or ordination vnto him selffe .

As for Chrysostome / and Oecumenius / vnto whome is added Beza pag 226. Where this is repeted : I answer at ones / that yt semeth violent that the Apostle vsinge the worde eldershipe / shoulde shutte forth those / which were properly called elders . And where I alledged pag. 226. that Chrisostome ment not by those wordes / to put a distinction betwene elders by age / and office : I was deceiued . The occasion was / because he doth so in the same epistle / where he had no more cause then heere : and not lokinge vppon the the place when I wrote / I tooke one for another . But yt is to be noted / that their interpretation is directly againste the D. for Chrysostome affirmeth / that the Bishoppes off Actes 20. 28. Vpon 1. Timo. 4 : Ephesus ( which appeare to haue bene diuers in the Actes ) did lay on their handes : and Beza / that all those which had the mynistrie off the worde , are meant by the word presbitery : So that by their iudgement / one onely did not ordeine , nor lay on handes : both which the D. affirmeth . As for the other sentence off Chrysostome / with Theophilacte / althowgh Paule lefte vnto Tite to doe those thinges which were ioined with most honour : yt foloweth not / that he lefte them to be doone otherwise / then himselfe did them .

But he doth to much abuse his reader / which would make hym beleue that he drewe this from the godly writers / which he hath from professed enemies off the trwth . For thes are the reasons off Pighius / which to proue that the bishopp onely should Li. 2. Hierar . eccle. ca. 3. & 9. & 5. li. ca. 10 & controuer . 16 choose / and not the church / alledged thes twoo places off Tite / and Timothe which the Answerer hath . Thus the firste reason off the D. with all the authorities wherwith he hath walled yt / is gone to the ground . for as for Ambrose testimonie / yt maketh nether whot / nor kolde : no man dowteth but that Timothe owght to be circumspecte , in ordeininge ministers .

The second reason is / that iff the election off a bishop had off necessytie perteined vnto the people : them S. Paul would not haue written to Timothe of yt , but vnto the churches as well as vnto him . As though there were not many thinges in those epistles / necessay for the churches to doo : or as though they inscribed vnto Titus / and Timothe / are not written for the instruction of the whole churche / euen in that very sentence off imposition off handes . For when Saint Paule tawght / that Timothe mighte not lay on his handes rashly : he tawght the whole churches / that they shoulde not chuse any rashely . What is I besech yow in Saint Lukes two bookes / dedicated vnto Theopilus : which doth not aswell perteine vnto all sortes off men in the church / as vnto him ? That the holy ghoste therfore intituleth his bookes sometimes vnto particular persons / was not that the Doctrine conteined in them / shoulde more perteine vnto them / then vnto others : but ether because he woulde lifte vpp their heade aboue the reste / or for some other particuler In the argument vpon the epistles . circumstance ..

And in Maister Caluines iudgement / they were both written rather for instruction off other in the church / then for Timothe / and Titus . For there beinge great resistance made vnto those younge men / off diuers in the churches off Ephesus / and Crete : the Apostle to supporte them againste their aduersaries / and to gird them with more authoritie / so intituled their epistles : that they mighte knowe that those thinges they did / and tawght / they nether did / nor taught of them selues / but by his commaundement . As therfore all thinges conteined in thes Epistles / were to be knowen off Timothe / and Titus : so were they all to be knowen off euery one in those churches . And as there are thinges in them / the exercise wheroff concerned Timothe / and Titus onely : so there are other / the exercise wheroff / did at no hand apperteine to any off them .

As for the circumstance off the place , which he saieth is against my replie : he sheweth none . But there is a manifest circumstance againste him / which the Apostle by and by addeth / kepe they selfe pure , and communicate not with the faultes off other , as iff he 1. Tim. 5. 22. should saie / althowghe thow canste not hinder the ordeining off insufficient officers of the church : yet kepe they selfe pure . Moreouer if this writing vnto Timothe alone / that he should laie handes off none rashely / shoulde giue him alone authoritie to ordeine / and electe pastors : then yt should followe / that not onely the church / and elders off Ephesus / but the Bishopes which were there together with Timothe / should haue bene shutte owte . Act. 20. which iff the D. dare not saie / beside that this holde is gone : he muste recante the sole election / and ordination by Timothe .

Yow maie easely put me owte off dowbte , off : that which I neuer dowbted / and which I haue somewhere confessed : that by the ceremonie off layinge on off handes , the whole forme off orderinge is vnderstanded . But off that yow shoulde proue / that in that place off Saint Paule it is so vnderstanded ( althowghe yt is not that / which can hurte our cause ) yow bringe not so much / as maie induce vnto any the leaste suspicion . Your reason that he did electe , because he did appoincte : is to symple . For albeit to chuse be to appointe : yet euery one which appointeth / chooseth not : no more then yt followeth / that because euery man liueth : therfore euery thinge that liueth / is a man . And I woulde gladly vnderstand / by what maisters off our tounge yow can proue / that thes two wordes to appoincte / and to ordeine / differ . Iff they be all one / why seeke yow aduantage in the one / which you can not finde in the other ? But if it be absurde / to saie that ordeininge is nothinge els but to call , to chuse , and to appoincte : yt is as absurde / that to appoincte is nothinge els / but to call / to chuse / and to ordeine .

I am well contente yow expounde the place vnto Timothe , off puttinge on of handes / by that vnto Titus , of appoincting towne by towne . For I dowbte not but that which the eldershippe doth / or one in the name off the eldershippe after the election / is therfore called appointinge / or ordeininge to the ministerie / because yt is a solemne inuestinge / and puttinge him in possession off that / wherunto he was before chosen . Althowghe Cal. be directly against him in this question / whose iudgement is / that yt doth nether belonge vnto the bishoppe to choose him selfe alone / nor yet 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Chrysost. Oecume . Beza . Bulling. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Vpon the fourth c. 1. Timot. to ordeine by him selfe alone : yet to helpe to ouerthrowe the right signification of Presbytery / he is contente to folowe him / at the leste dowting : leauinge so many bothe olde / and newe / which all take that worde for a companie off those which gouerne the churche . And it is certeine that those formes off nownes / are vsed to signifie ether a societie : or els the place where a societie meeteth . And Caluine him selffe interpretinge that place / where he had better occasion to consider of it / semeth to haue retracted his iudgement : for thus he writeth . They which doo here take this word ( presbytery ) for a nowne collectiue , and for the colledge of elders , in my iudgement thincke well . Althowghe all thinges consydered , I graunte an other sense will not euill agree : that is , that yt be the name off the offyce .

Yff those wordes as I appoincted the , be referred as yowr learned interpreters will haue them / by laying on off handes , and praier : they Tit. 1. helpe yow nothinge . And therfore I will not striue abowte yt . Where yow saie / Musculus meaninge is not much otherwise , meaninge therby to conclude / that he mente not to barr Timothe / and Titus off their sole election : let his wordes then be iudge . Hauinge shewed howe Mathias / and the Deacons were chosen by the church : he saith / there is no doubte but the Apostles kepte that maner of ordeininge . and alledginge the example of the election Tit. elect ▪ Ministe● . off the 14. off the Actes / headdeth / therfore after fastinge , and prayinge ( which was wonte to be doone , in the congregation off the faithfull ) they ordeined elders , which were firste chosen of the faithfull . And this forme off electinge , and ordeininge elders , and bishoppes , the Apostle commended vnto his fellowe workman Titus , and Timothe sayinge , for this cause I lefte the at Crete , &c. for who woulde beleue that he ordeined , that Titus shoulde doo otherwise , then both he , and the rest off the Apostles were accoustomed to doo . And althowghe thes wordes declare so plainly / that Titus and Timothe chose not them selues alone / but by consente off the churches / as more fuller coulde hardly be deuised : yet to put all owt off dowbte / that he mente that Timothe / and Titus conformed themselues to the examples off the Apostles / in the churches election ioined together with theirs : he doth immediatly add this conclusion . Therfore bothe by the example , and ordinance off the Apostle in the primitiue churche , elders , pastors , bishoppes , and Deacons were in the Ecclesiasticall meetinges chosen off the people , by lifting vpp off handes . Where the reader maie consyder what trwth he hath to loke for at the D. handes : which denieth thinges that haue so manifeste / and so easie confutation .

And where he saith / that herin althowghe he hath lefte Caluin , yet he hath folowed the iudgement of other learned men : he maie see that he hath not lefte Caluin onely / but Muscul . Bulling. and Zuing. As for his learned men , I thinke verely that Pighius / Hosius / and others off that stampe excepted / he is not hable to alledge one / to confirme that Titus / and Timothe had onely the election off the ministers . For those alledged / to proue that Timothe / and Titus did ordeine / are nothinge to the purpose : considering no man denieth that : but that they ordeined alone / was to be shewed . And ●● he had shewed that they alone ordeined / which he shall neuer doo : yet is not the election off the people therby shut owte : forsomuche as election / and ordination are seuerall thinges .

What ether godlines / or honesty is in him / which dare so bare faced denie / thinges so openly vntrwe : I will leaue to bee iudged Diuis . 2. Pa. 202. of that which is saide / towching that the election doth not belonge vnto the bishoppe alone / but vnto the church . Here I will shewe that not so much as the ordination / can by the testimonie of th auncient fathers / or councelles agree vnto one bishop onely : which is another poinct that he would haue the reader beleue / and therfore owght ether to haue shewed yt / or els to haue holden his peace : seing none euer denied / that the bishop hath to doo in the ordinacion . Firste yt appeareth in Cyprian / that both in the prouince where he was / and in all other prouincs almost / the nexte 1. lib. 4. Epist. bishopps off that place where ther was a minister to be chosen / came to ordeine hym whom the people chose . The great councell off Nice / decreed that he shoulde be ordeined off all the bishopps off the prouince / at the leaste of three . Moreouer August . sheweth / that when the Donatistes accused Cycilian / for that beinge cheife bishop off the Prouince off Carthage / he waited not lib. cont. Donat. post . coll. cap. 5. to bee ordeined off the cheife bishoppe off Numidia : the Catholikes did answer / that it was the coustome of the Catholike church / that the bishop of Num. should not ordeine the bishop of Carthage / but the bishops which were next . And in an other place of the same booke / he sheweth that yt was the coustome that 12. bishoppes shoulde be at the ordination off him / which was chosen bishop / and pastor off any church . Which appeareth in the same booke to haue bene obserued / in the ordination off Cycilian .

And that yt may appeare / that this was by continuall consente / and Harmonie off Councells decreed againste the ordination by one bishoppe : that one place off Theodoret iff there were no more / mighte suffice / where he saith / that Euagrius came to 1. lib. ca. 23. the office off a bishoppe vnlawfully / because onely Paulinus ordeined him / contrary to the tenure off manie canons which prouided that they shoulde not be ordeined / but by all the bishoppes off the prouince / or at the leaste by three . Thus yt appeareth that by all antiquitie / not onely the election made by one bishope alone / but the ordinacion also is flatly condemned / as vnlawfull / and contrarie to the coustome of the Catholike churche / and olde Councelles ▪ wherby is manifest how vaine yt is / which is cited owt off Caluin / and others / to proue that because the Metrapolitane ordeined / therfore he ordeined alone .

Yow answer not to the difference I shewe to haue bene / betwene your bishop / and Ieromes ▪ yow tell that I took my worde ( onely ) owt off Illyricus / as yow did your worde off ( excellinge ) which is vntrw . For I gathered yt owt off Ieromes manifeste wordes / which denieth that the bishop differeth from an elder / but in ordinacion : not knowing whether Illyricus hath that word or no. Nether are yow helped by the colledge election . Because that ther is great difference / betwene the libertie which maie be vsed in Cyuill elections / and in Ecclesiasticall / confirmed euen by placinge off bishops with vs / whose ordeiners are not also choosers . I haue shewed how the election / and ordination are doone off diuers : and the next diuis . handleth that matter / nether is there any thing in yowr manifolde questions / to the contrary : then all which one onely reason had bene a greate deale better . Nether forget I my selfe one whit / in that I alledged owt off the councells off Carthage / and Toledo : where the ordination is gyuen to the bishops , but no worde that the election belongeth vnto them . Howbeit because I see yow hauing not to answer / seeke startinge holes : I will not suffer yow to runne owte thether / nether will I make yr any question betwene vs / whether the bishop maie both chuse / and ordeyne ▪ yt shall be enowgh for vs / that he can not electe alone / and withowt the church / nor ordeine alone withowt other ministers .

T. C. hath many ouersyghtes , because the D. doth not / or will not see / what he setteth downe . Yow had to proue that the election belongeth to the bishoppe : to conclude that yow bringe / that he ordeined . Therunto I answered that yt followeth not / but rather the contrarie / that he ordeined / therfore he chose not . I saide not symplye that the contrarie folowed / but rather the contrary . Your example of the vertues , is altogether vnlyke / they beinge so ●●ncked that he that hath one / hath al fowre : which is not in election / and ordination by your owne testimonie / confessing that the election may be the peoples / but not the ordination . The example off the foot , and hande , declareth manifestly that I reasoned againste that false conclusion off yours / which vppon that the bishop did ordeine / woulde needes haue yt followe / that he also elected . Yow gett no aduantage in that the worde off election / is sometimes taken for ordination / and contrariwise . For althowghe the wordes be confounded : yet the thinges remaine still seperated . And if yow thinke that the right off election is gotten to the bishop / because in steed off saying the bishop ordeined / yt is saide the bishop chose : it foloweth that when in steed of saying the people chose / yt is saide the people ordeined / the people also gaine the right off ordinacion . And iff yow shoulde gaine yt / yet be yow neuer the nerer your pourpose / vnles yow be hable to shewe / that the bishop alone / withowt the church did chuse / or withowt the colledge off elders / and other bishops did ordeine . Therfore in makinge so great accompte off this / yowr hookie is greater then yowr harveste .

Heere be vaine quarels againste the quotacion / because yt is Diuis. 3. pag 204. saide the glosse vppon the Act. and not the ordinarie glosse : all which retourne vppon Illyricus . Belyke to auoide the place which saith precisely / that the people owghte to chuse / wherunto the D. answereth not a word : althowgh it be warranted by example off the Apostles / and directly to the cause / which is that the Bishoppes ordination / owght not to shut owt the peothe peoples election . The D. vppon the coniunction disiunctiue / ad Rust. mom woulde proue Ierome falsified . For that in so much as he saith / if ether the people , or the bishop choose thee to be of the clergy , he woulde conclude / that the bishope did choose withowt the people . But he shoulde remember / that if therby the bishoppes election be established / withowt the people : by the same reason the peoples election off the minister is established / withowt the bishoppe . If he dare not saie that / then let him vnderstand / that I haue faithfully followed the meaninge off Ierome / and that this worde ( or ) is not alwaies a note off separation . Which that it maie yet more clearly appeare / I will shewe the like manner off speach off Leo the firste / whose wordes are , no reason suffreth that they shoulde be counted amongest the bishopes , which Dist. 62. are nether chosen of the clergy , nether desyred of the people , nether consecrated of the Metrapolitane with the conprouinciall bishoppes . Here althowgh the bishoppe vse a disiunctiue / as if it shoulde be sufficient to haue any off thes / and not all together : yet yt appeareth both by the decrees off other ( Which foundinge them selues off those wordes / haue decreed that the people owght to choose with the clergie ) and plainly by his wordes after / that he mente they shoulde all be ioyned together . For he addeth / when the question shall be to choose the cheife prieste ( whiche he called before the Bishoppe ) let hym be preferred whom the consent off the clergie , and people shall require : and after sheweth the reason / why the peoples consent owght to be had .

I graunte that I tooke Musculus wordes / for Ieromes : yet iff that make to the pourpose / I had redd the place . And Ierome Ierom. epistola ad Pam. aduers . error . himselffe / in an other place / hath a sentence not much vnlyke . For in a epistell againste the bishope off Ierusalem / he reprocheth him that he dispised the laitie deacons / and elders / for that he coulde in one howre as himselfe boasted / make a thowsande clearkes , wherby appeareth the corruption which Muscu . speaketh of / and which is nowe vsed with vs / off makinge so manie at a clappe at the bishopps pleasure onely / both the people / and the elders beinge neglected : to haue bene in those times / and yet not to haue gotten such footinge / nether to haue bene so vniuersally doone / but that the bishoppes which vsed that manner / were therby subiecte to shamfull reproch . And how cometh yt to passe / that yow send Musculus here withoute all answer ? Which dooth bothe flatly condemne all such odinacions / which are made off the bishoppe before election off the church and bringeth Ierome for his warrante / referring Ierome ( which saith / there was no election off mynisters at all ) vnto that the bishoppe did appoincte ad Nepo . whome he lifted / withowt the consente off the church . As for the place yow cyte owte off that epistle : yt maketh not to pourpose . For it is not denied that the bishope hath to dooe in the choise off the minister : but that he alone hath to doo .

How Cyprian is wholy oures in this cause / hath bene shewed : Diuis. 4. pa. 205. this exception also is answered . onely here it is to be added / that in the epistle owt of which the D. cyteth this example of Aurelius / yt is expressly saide / that Cyp. did not chuse him reader of his owne autority / but by autority of his felow ministers which were presente at that time . That he saith heer / and alledgeth after owt of Diuis. 2. pa. 212. Gratians glosse / that the peoples intereste in elections , consisteth in bearinge wittnes off the good conuersation of the ministers : beside that yt is a popishe shifte ( as I haue shewed ) sufficiently before confuted / Diuis. 6. pa. 164. yt hath no grounde in the worde testimony , wherout he woulde pull yt . For by a fygure off metonymy he noteth the peoples voice : because by giuinge it / they gaue also testimony what they the wght off him . Where it is to be noted / that the D. giueth no more to the churche off God / then S. Paul giueth to straungers from 1. Tim. 3. 7. Epi. 100. yt / of whom he willeth that the bishop shall haue a good report .

There followeth the open violence doone vnto August . wordes . Where first let the reader obserue againe / that this wresting of the example of Eradius / against the election of the church / was taken from Pighius / as appeareth manifestly . But for answer Contr. 16 vnto Pigbius / and the D. it muste be vnderstanded / how for that election of Eradius to be bishop after August . decease / there were assembled two bishopes besides August . 6. Elders beside Eradius / with the reste of the clergie / and people . For what purpose all thes / if it were in Augustines powre to choose onelie ? After yt appeareth that Augustine did call the people to haue there consente / because he had experience off trouble / and discontentement of the people off Millen : for that Seuerus the bishop there / did appoincte his successor before his death / withowte speakinge any thinge theroff vnto them : which could not be auoided off Augustine / if he mente to chuse any againste the will off the people . For yt had bene better for him to haue appoincted one as Seuer us did / withowte communicatinge the matter vnto them : then in communicatinge yt / to take one againste their willes . Againe where the D. vppon those wordes I will haue Eradius my successor , woulde haue that Augustine onely had the election off him : he is confuted by and by after with his owne wordes / I saie that I will haue him , because I knowe that yow will haue him . And after he willeth that the publike notories / shoulde as well note their voices , as his will in this matter : that ( saith he ) your consentes fall not to the grounde , or become voide . Wherunto also pertaine / the subscriptions of them which folowed . Which althowgh the D. saith are referred onely vnto the peticion off Augustine , to be discharged off the hearinge off ciuill matters : yet the wordes sounde otherwise . For when he required their subscription to those Actes : yt is cleare that he muste be vnderstanded / to haue spoken off both those matters . otherwise he woulde haue required subscription to that Acte / and not vnto the Actes .

And where in the ende for an other reason he addeth / Augustine was appointed bishope , when Valerius bishope off Hippo was aliue : I see not howe it maketh for him one word . For if he think that Valerius off his Authoritie did it / he is vtterly deceiued : seing Possidonius Possidonius in the life of Augu. Epis. 225. writeth / that Valerius spake vnto the people / to prouide / and to ordeine an elder off the cytie / and sheweth how he was ordeined by the consente off all the people . Which thinge yff it were not more lighter then the none daies / off this Epistle off August . yet yt mighte appeare by other / as where he declareth / that Pinianns was ordeined off the people / elder off the church / againste his will . moe might be alleadged / but thes shall suffyse . Sauinge that I muste put Maister D. in remembrance / howe he merueilously forgetteth him selfe . For grauntinge me before / that Pag. 191. the councell off Carthage wherat Augustine was presente / decreed that the election shoulde be made by the commen consente off the people / clerkes / and bishopes in the same prouince : he must heere needes confesse / that ether Augustine did there ioine together in election with the church / and the clergie ( as they terme them ) : or that he brake the order off the Councell / which could not be withowt his fault / although the election off the church had bene ( as the D. esteemeth yt ) but a thing indifferent . And the truth is / yt appeareth that August . had in that election / an expresse regard vnto the decree off the councell : which caused him beside the eldership off the church / and people / to send for two other bishops / to be assistants . Wherupon the reader may see / how there is no light off wordes so cleare / which Phighius / and the Ans. misled / will not giue th●nser to darcken .

Besides that Ambrose calleth yt a diuine election which is made by the church / which he could not onles yt were by the institution off God : the whole discourse off the Epistle teacheth / that the election off the people is there accounted off / as necessary . For when the church off Vercella did linger the time in not chusing a bishop / when it was also infected with Heretickes : why did not Amb. at least by way off Lapse , take the election vnto him self / but writeth vnto them / reprehending them that they did not aske for a bishop / as other churches were wont to doo ?

Gregor. Nazienz . speaking there off diuers elections / wherin still the people bore one part / and that withowt controlement : In the or . vpon the death off his father . speaketh more for that election in that one place / then the D. hath hitherto / or in the residue of his treatise is able to shew . And where he might seeme to haue somewhat nipped at it / in shewing how at certeine elections some off the people were contentious : he healeth that euen in the next sentence to this / saying that at that time it was to be feared , lest he owght to iudge the popular regiment better ordered , then their owne : and after maketh mention off the corruption off those / which were fellow elders with his father . but obserue I pray yow againe the D. faith fulnes / which expoundeth the worde churches , the clergy . Where learned he thus to expound ? Let it be that as in the scripture sometime / so in the auncient fathers the eldership off a church / is called by the name off church : where can he euer shew that the eldership / or as he termeth it the clergy / of one onely church / wherof Greg. speaketh / is called by the name off churches ? In steed therfore that he should haue translated / both the richer , and they off great authority in the church , were cleane from that euill : he hath translated / the churches that is to say the clergy , &c taking the nominatiue plurall / for the genitiue syngular . Which although in the latin toung / if one take not heed vnto the sense / may deceiue : yet when the D. had the Greeke ( which hath 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 off the church ) before him / as it seemeth by cyting the greeke in the same place / by and by after : ether he vnderstood it not / or willingly peruerted the meaning . So I leaue to the reader / whether I haue reasoned to the pourpose , or no : and whether yow besides wordes / haue any thing at all .

As in certeine other places / so in this / in steed off that I Diuis . 5. Pa 207. should haue taken the quotacion which came after / I taking the quotacion in my paper booke which went before / was deceiued : and for the 6. and 7. of Socrates / set downe the 6. and 7. of Eusebius . This verely is the error which the D. maketh so great triumphes of . For the first off the places / it appeareth how Chrysost. Socr. 6. 2. ca. ( there called Iohn / elder of the church of Antioche ) was chosen bishop of Constantinople by commen voice of all both people , and clergy : and how he had his election ratified / by the Emperour Arcadius . For the seuenth booke / yt appeareth that Chrysanthus Lib. 7. ca. 12. was chosen bishop off Costantinople / by the people . And when as Sabbatius ( because Chrysanthus hid himself / and would haue none off the bishopricke ) gat certeine bishops to ordeine him into yt : the story sheweth / how the people sowght Chrysanthus owt / and put owt Sabbatius . diuers other examples there be / which I leaue : as I would also haue doon thes / if it had not bene to haue shewed / the vaine triumphes off the D.

And where he saith / that there is nothing in those 6. and 7. of Euseb. which maketh mention of any election by the people , but in one onely , which he goeth about to wipe a way : that thow maiest know the D. changeth not his skin / I will note them in a word . To leaue therfore the election made by reuelation / where he saith the election was Lib. 7. ca. 30. made by the ministers , and pastors : yt is manifest that the churches had to doo in the elections . For in the indorcement of the letters / wherby an other was appointed at Antioche / into Samosatenus roume : as well autority off the churches is pretended / as off the bishops / elders / and deacons . Where also he would elude the other place / firste because it was a miracle , then for that by the word brethren , it is not certeine whether the people were noted : for the first / Euse . 6. 10 yt may appeare how vaine yt is / seing the story saith / the brethren came together to chuse a bishop . The miracle therfore which came vnloked for off them / and after they were assembled / was to direct them in their election / and not to authorise them to chuse . For autority they had before : els they would not haue come together for that purpose . As for the other / it is a boldnes too insufferable / withowt shewing any one example / and contrary both vnto the phrase off the scripture / and aucient fathers / shewed in my former booke / and off Eusebius him self / as may appeare pag. 88. Eus 7. l. c. 11. & 24. Diuis. 6. pa. 209. diuers times in some one chapter .

In all thes sentences / set downe owte of Euseb. there is not a worde for the D. nor againste vs . The D. confesseth that Origine tawght beinge a laie man in the church publikely : he can not denie if he woulde / but that he tawght by the appointment off bishoppes . Thes two beinge put / what followeth but that in those daies / he was counted a laie man / which toke vppon him the ministerie vppon the bishoppes appoinctinge onelye ? And that he abuse not his reader with such rouinge treatises / my reson I will set downe in a fewe wordes . That appointement vnto the ministrie / which was thowght not to inhable to be minister / was thowght insufficient : but the appointement off the bishops onely / was thowght not to inhable to be minister ( for Origene that had that appoinctement / and authoritie / was still coumpted a laie man ) : therfore that authoritie onely / was then thowght insufficient . Eusebius therfore giuinge me this houlde / which the D. is driuen whether he will or no to confesse ▪ there is wherwith to vpholde that I haue saide . For if the bishops appointment off Origine to preach / did not gyue him any degree in the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Ordinationem presbyterij non est as se quutus . ministrie for what cawse did it not / except yt be it at I haue assigned ? his translation of Euse . words / when he was yet not ordeined minister ( wherin another point off this matter standeth ) is not warranted . For by this means / he must take one of his wordes / which properly signifieth the choise by lifting vp / and vsed sometimes of eccesiasticall writers / for laying on of hands / for a degree : which hathe no example . Likewise he must take the other / which I haue shewed to signifie the company of all the gouernours off the church / for the office off one onely elder : which wanteth proofe . Beside that Muscul . which translateth yt / semeth to haue folowed the sence I haue : where if he had folowed the D. he would haue doone otherwise . For in steed of he had not appoinctment of the eldership , he would haue saied the degree of an elder . Where Ordinem pre●●yteratus . he alledgeth / that Demetrius suffred hym to teach at Alexandria , when he was a laie man , belike therby to proue / that the reprehension of Demetrius / was not to be regarded / which did himselfe that he found faulte with in other : yt maketh nothinge to this question . For yt is enowghe to that in hande / that yt is confessed bothe by Demetrius / and Eusebius ( Which taketh the defense off those / whom Demetrius rebuked ) that Origene was a laie man / althowghe appoincted to the preachinge off the worde / by the Bishops . Whether yt be lawfull for a laie man to teache the worde off God in publike place / is an other question .

The nexte sect . I leaue to the iudgmente of the reader . Of this Chap. 8. the 1. diui. pa 21. greate heape which foloweth / the moste parte haue bene broughte before / some foure times at the leaste : they haue bene thresshed / and there is no yelde / it shal be seen that the rest / are no better then their fellowes . the places off scripture alledged heere / are all answered sauing onely that of the Actes 13. which is borrowed of Hosius : who vseth this place / againste the choise by the church . De Sacramento or dinis 54 : cap. For answer wherunto I saie / that it is nor question there off such election / as wee spake off : that beinge the election off God / and not off the church . I for my parte rather thinke / that it was the voice off God by the Prophetes / or one off the prophetes : and for proofe alledge the storie in the Crome . which may be commentary to this . For as the church then in distresse / by publike praier / and 2 20 cap : 3. 13. 14. 15. vers . faste / receiued comforte throwghe a Prophet / whom the Lorde sodenly in the myddeste off the congregation / raised amongeste them : euen so the church off Antioche beinge in great distresse / and feare off ruine off the church off God / partly by the sworde / and famine / partly by contentions / and serchinge remedy by puhlike praier / and faste : receiued by a Prophet which the lord stirred vpp amongeste them this oracle / wherby he shewed them a singular meanes / not onely to mainteine / but to amplifie the borders off the kingdome off Christe . If the S. will not receiue this interpretation / but take the holy gost to haue sounded immediatly from heauen : yet it helpeth him nothing / there was no place lefte for any election / but needes muste Paule / and Bar. besent .

Iff therfore the bishop haue the spirite off prophecie at any time / wherby he may haue such a certeine / and vnfallible direction / as this was / wee will les sticke with him for his sole election : Iff not / yt is in vaine to alledge this example : sauinge that it maketh much againste him . For if the lorde woulde haue the approbation off the whole companie of Doctors / and elders in that election which him selfe had made / and where there was no daunger off error : howe much more owghte the bishops election / which hath so manie bankes both off ignorance / and euill conscience / to put him from the waie of a good election / be susteined by the iudgement off others . And yt ys vntrwe that it is plaine , that the church was heere shut forth . For althowgh yt was nether in the ministers powre / nor the peoples / to chaunge this election : yet the faste there mentioned beinge generall / and the accoumpte off their embassage / and successe therof beinge afterwarde made 14. Act. 27. vnto the churche : yt is not vnlike but in the approbation which that election coulde admit / the church also had her parte . That which is heere added owte off Beza / which the D. woulde haue so diligently noted : is but to waste paper . For wee holde that it is moste conueniente / the people shoulde haue the ministers / and elders goe before / and directe them in their elections . But yt is moste directly againste the D. For therby appeareth that Beza is off that minde / that althowgh the people be ignorant / and vntractable : yet they owght not to be cut of from ecclesiasticall elections / but directed / and called to some moderation .

Off that which remaineth in this diuision / the canons called 2 : Diuis . pag. 212. the Apostels / that off Antioche / Eusebius / and others which speake off ordeining / make nothing to this question which is off election : consideringe that yt hath bene shewed / not onely that ordinacion differeth from election : but also that the councells from time to time / haue confirmed the election by the churches . So that iff there haue bene any elections made by the Bishopes alone : they haue bene directly contrary to the tenure of the councelles . In the councell off Nice ( althowgh his boldnes be greater / then in the other canons ) hauing chaunged the wordes off the councell / and in steede off ordinacion / put election : yet hath he no more warrant off the wordes off that canon / then off the others . And albeit the generall answer is more then sufficient / to resiste suche naked assertions : yet euen in this councell / it is manifestly to beshewed / that that canon is to be vnderstanded of ordinacion / as it is distinguished from election . For in the letters which the Synode off Constantinople / wrote vnto the councell holden at Rome / yt is thus written . Touching the care off the Theodo . li. 5. ca. 9. gouernement off euery church , yow know that the oulde decree , and appointement of the fathers off the Nicene councell , hath preuailed from time to time : that the inhabitants in euery prouince , taking to them if they will , and if yt be profitable , those which are next adioining , should make the elections . According to the tenure wherof vnderstand yow , that the residue of the churches with vs , are gouerned . Wherupon we haue in our generall councell , set our bishopp off Constantinople Nectarius , in the sight off the Emperour Theodosius , and clergy off that citie , the whole citie giuing theyr voices therunto . And so goeth forward with the election off the bishop off Antioche / and confirmacion off the bishop off Ierusalem . Where yt appeareth manifestly / not onely that the ordinacion gyuen by that canon to the bishop / did not shut owt the election off the people : but that yt implied necessarily / an election by the people / and clergy ioined with yt . For the Synode saith / that those elections which were made by consent of the church / were made according to the decree off the Nicene councell . And if it should be as the D. pretendeth / that the councell off Nice ment to gyue the whole interest off election vnto the bishops / and to take yt from the church : then coulde not that councell haue saied / that Lib 2. Histor. tripart . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Dist. 67. they made the Nicene councell the squire off their elections / when they admitted the suffrages off the people . And that there be no doubt heroff / I will set downe the wordes off the councell off Nice / which are these . Let the people chuse , and the bishop approue , and seale vp the election with them .

For Gratians distincions with his glosse : first them selues gyue me defense enough / against all the force wherwith they assaile this cause : as when he saith / that the other priestes vnder degree off a bishop , may be ordeined off their owne bishop , so that both the citisens , and the rest off the priestes gyue their assent . And the glosse vpon the second canon off that distinction / saying / the Bishop alone may gyue the degree vnto priestes : addeth / alone that is to say , withowt other bishopps . Then I In catal . test . veritatis . coulde oppose the authoritie off Illyricus : which sheweth plainly / that the wordes cited owt off the 63. distinction by the D. be a mere lie off Gratian. Howbeit I will not gyue ether Gratian / or his glosse that honour / as once to vouchesafe hym off any answer in the church of God . And that thow maiest know good reader / what maner of man he was / of whom the D. plunged seeketh helpe / with commendation also of his interpretation / euen where it is condemned off protestantes writers off our time / as heere thow seest / and further shall appeare : I will in a word aduertise the.

That whether he were the brother off Lombard / tharchepiller of Antichristes seat / borne with a third brother of a strompet ( as they write which couer the shame of his birth ) or Lombardes bastard / conceined by a Nun / which by reuelation accompanied her selfe with Lombard : whether so euer I saie he were off thes / this is certeine / that in gatheringe the canons off the councelles / he endeuored by mighte / and maine / to make them agree with the Patrone off the adulterous church off Rome . Therfore in goynge aboute / to reconcile thee gouernemente off the elder churches off Christe / with that vpstarte Synagogue off Antechriste / as yt were to make accorde between the owle / and the rauen : there is no kinde of false dealinge / nether in addinge / changinge / dimynishinge / false interpretinge / nor other corruptions / and that contrarie to the cleare lighte off wordes / controrolmente off recordes extante to confute him / wherin he hath not caried awaie the bel of vnshamfastnes / from all that euer wrote before him / or in his time . Off thes corruptions there are almoste as many both witnesses / and gath erers off our owne cotrey men / and of others : as haue at any time bene exercised in this fielde off confutation / off the popishe religion . As for his glossers / as the Popes hyred seruantes / such as flattered for a cruste off breade / sayinge yea to his yea / and nay to his nay : they shall goe to gether with their maister . And let euen this place of the D. befor a sey off the glosses impudencie / in expounding Leos wordes . For where Leo speakinge of election / setteth forth the intereste Tom 1. Concil. Epist. Leonis primi 82. & 90. Diuis. 2. pag. 264. Diuis. 4. pag. 205. of the churches with all thes wordes / that the minister owghte to be chosen by the consente off the people , by the voices off the people , by their good willes , and that none be ordeined which they desyre not , which they wishe not for , which they require not : all thes wordes this good glosse bringeth me vnto this / that the people shoulde onely gyue testimonie off his good behauiour , which is before confuted . And if he saie here that I deale not equally / which barre him off that authoritie that I haue sometimes vsed my selfe ▪ he owghte to remember that a foreine testimonie / and witnes off an enemie is glorious / and that I hauinge warre in thes questions off the discipline / not onely with him / but with the Papistes / mighte with commendation strike the● thinges with their owne sworde / which he ( hauinge herin the same cause which they haue ) can not doo .

That which is gathered off Ambroses election / owte off Theodorete / is moste vntrwe ▪ for yt is manifeste / that Ambrose was chosen by the whole church off Mylane / and neuer a word to proue / that the Byshops had the righte off election : but the contrarye by the wordes / and circumstances off the storie . And wheras vppon the bishoppes offer vnto the Emperour to appointe one / the D. woulde make the intereste of election / a runninge / and walkinge righte : firste as the emperours gaue vnto the bishoppes / thinges which were vnmeete for them : so yt was no meruaile if the bishops sometimes offred vnto the Emperours / Theod. lib. 4. ca. 5. that which perteined not vnto them . Which may well appeare there by the answere off the good Emperour / which refused yt as a thinge which he had not to doo with / and vnmeete for him . Secondly yt is very like / that for the diuersities of iudgementes which were emongeste the people / the bishoppes perceiuinge that they shoulde run into displeasure off one off the parties / woulde haue bene glad to shifte off that euill will / and lay yt on the Emperour / which was better hable to beare it . last of all / they offred the Emperour that / which he willed them to doo : which when yt was to ordeine onely / as the issue declared / and not to chuse / the churches election can be by no meanes preiudiced / in that offer off the bishops . As for Chrysostomes 3. booke de Sacerdotio , besyde that I doubte not but if yt had any thinge of Valewe for yow / yow would alledge yt : yt is the same authoritie which Hosius De Sacr. ordinis . alledgeth / and alledgeth in grosse ( as the D. doth ) againste the churches election .

To the D. firste reason againste the churches election / which standeth in that there haue bene great contentions , and diuersitie off Diuis. 3. pag 213. myndes amongeste the churches : I answer / that the Apostles when there fell a contention / and a iarr amongest those off the church / neuer entred into any such deliberation / off cuttinge awaye Act. 6. the churches libertie : contrariwise they estemed the neareste waie to heale vppe the breach / to gyue them some thinge more in that election off Deacons / then was ordinarie . For where they were accustomed to shew the way in other elections / and by ripenes off their iudgemente helpe the weaknes off the People / there they suffring the church to goe before / folowed with their approbation . And not onely in respecte off that election / but if a man will consider the whole estate off the primatiue church in the Apostles time : it shall appeare plainly / that if there were euer good cause / to take away the churches election throwgh contentions / and diuersities off mindes / that was in the Apostles times . For the churches off God then / almoste throwghowt the world standinge of Iewes / and gentils / and there beinge such a naturall hate betweene those two peoples / as whatsoeuer the one woulde / the other commenly woulde not / and contrarywise : if the Apostles had iudged that for reason / which the D. estemeth highe wisdome : they shoulde neuer haue permitted any election vnto the churches . For albeit the knittinge off both those peoples into one profession off the gospell / did mortefy that deadly hatred / which was naturally in them : yet notwithstandinge yt appeareth by diuers places off the scripture / that there were such remnantes Act. 15. 24. Rom. 14. 15. Ephes. 2 off that hatred lefte / that nether the Apostles them selues which were so wise peace makers / and so kunninge tiers off loue knotes / nor yet the ministers / and elders which had receiued the firste fruictes off the spirite off God / coulde kepe them from moste daungerous contencions . And Maister Zuinglius off whom the D. woulde seeme to receiue some succour in this cause / euen when their churches were moste dangerously infected with Anabaptistry / Ecclesiastes . and many nourished it inwardly which durste not vtter it openly : teacheth that this forme off choise by the churche / was to be kepte . Nether is it to bee passed by / that Basil noteth Basill . Epist. 58. that one Anthimus / in choosinge a bishop withowt the churches voices / filled all Armenia with sedition . Whervnto add the testimonie off Chrysostome : where he askinge why Peter communicated the election withe the Disciples , answereth / leste the Vpon Act. 1● matter shoulde be tourned into a brawle , and haue fallen to a contention . When he assigneth the cause off contention ( cleane contrarie to the D. ) that the election was not communicated with the church .

Secondarily iff the churches elections shoulde be taken awaie / because off contentions which happen in them : Monarchies which oft haue declyned into tyrannie / and bene abused to oppression off the subiectes / shoulde haue had an ende long a goe : and other such moste lawfull / and necessarie aides off this present life / owghte to be taken awaie / as those which are abused . And to come to ecclesiasticall affaires / councelles by the D. reason owght to haue no place in the churches off Christe / off which it is saide / Nazianz. Ep. 42. ad Procop. Bas. 102. Epist. that there was neuer seen good issue of them : and that throwgh merueilous ambition / and desyre off contention in them / thinges owte off order were not remedied , but made worse .

Thirdly the examples off the contentions which the D. hath heaped vpp to gether / beside that they are in parte not off the churche with yt selfe / but off the church with hererickes / which is her commendation / as in the election off Ambrose : beside that also it is noted specially / that the people off Alexandria was off a Mutinous / and stirring nature / and therfore vniustly obiected againste the whole estate of the church : beside this I saie / thes examples alledged by the Answ. are so farre from weakeninge the churches election / that they make yt stronger . For notwithstandinge those contentions had / vnder bothe Christian magistrates / and Bishops : there was not onely no counseill taken / to barre the churches off their election : but were ( as hath bene shewed ) councells from time to time / to ratifie yt . And if the Emperours / and Bishops had not thowght yt necessary / that the churches shoulde haue intereste in their elections / or had thowght ( as the D. ) that bothe the churches were put in hasarde of false teachers / and the commenwealth off vprores / by reason off popular elections : yt had bene greate folie / or madnes rather / to haue suffred that which they mighte haue so easelie remedied . Which opinion off the necessitie off the churches interest / as yt hath appeared by diuers examples before alledged : so maie it clearly be seene / in the letters off the good Emperour Constantine / to the Cytisens off Nicomedia . which althowghe they had chosen to his great greife / Theodo . li. 1. c. 19. one Eusebius Bishop : dooth not therfore take awaie the election from them / but moueth to a newe . And albeit they had abused their righte / in chusing such a one as was an Arian / a runnigate from his former bishoppricke / a railer of the Emperour : yet he confesseth still / that yt belonged vnto them / to make a hewe election .

Fourthly / what will he say to that / that the people bridled the rage of the scribes / and pharises againste the truth / and ministers Math. 21. 26. Act. 5. 26. Sozo . li. 7 ca. 7. Theodo . li. 2. ca. 7. theroff / in that they were a fraide off them ? that the Bishop off the church being an Arrian / the people haue bene for the most parte Catholike ? That also the Emperour hath displaced the catholike bishop / chosen by the church / and placed an Arian ? Which disorders beinge often committed by the Bishops / maie by the D. rule / as well depriue them of their intereste in ordering / and confirming / as the people in chosing . What also that the euill disposition off the people / hath for the moste parte proceded off the mouing off their euill gouernours ? So that people diuers times good / when the rulers were naughte / hath bene seldome naughte / when their gouernours were good . besides all this / there are other faultes off Symonie / off choise off moste dissolute / and most vnlearned ministers / wherwith the sole election off the bishops is so infamous / and the churches election scarsly to be touched with : that many contentions off the people / woulde drawe les blould off the churche / then the choise onely off one suche blinde / and lame minister / as many off the assemblies off the bishoppes for that purpose / sende forthe by whole armies .

Laste all / as in other reasons before I haue shewed / that the D. defendinge the same cause which the Papistes / vseth the very selfe same armour / bournished by the names off Zuinglius / Insti . lib. 4. c. 5. se . 2. 3. Caluin / Beza / &c. so here he hath the very selfe same reason / which the Papistes vsed for the bishoppes sole election / wherunto Caluin maketh answer . For vnto the Papistes sayinge / that the people were shut forthe because off the contentions / and tumultes which happened often times : he answereth confessing there were such motions / and sturres / but that the taking awaie off the churches election / was browght in for a remedy against those sturres / he affirmeth to be a plaine lie . and sheweth that there were other waies to meete with those disorders / as to punishe them which should moue any tumult . And so goeth forward in shewinge the trewe cawse off the falling awaie off this libertie / from the churche . To all the reste off his reasons I haue answered before at large / sauinge that he hath embossed owte this laste / with a sentence Hosius li. de legit . iudic rerum eccl. off Chrysostome vpon Iohn / drawen from Hosius : who vseth this testimonie againste the election of the churche . Where both Hosius / and the Ans. shoulde haue learned / to haue put a difference betwene a confused multitude , and the church off God . For I woulde aske off Hosius ( howe shamles so euer he be ) whether he dare define the church off God / which is the spouse / and body off Christe / to be a certeine thinge full off tumulte , and sturres , consistinge , ad rashly compacted for the moste parte of folie , &c. and yet ether the answer is not afraied to saie / that this is the difinition / that is to saie the very nature / and vnchangeable propertie of the church off God : or els if he vnderstand yt of some other companie / he hath saide nothinge againste the election off the church . And verely I can not see / howe he coulde speake more vilely / of the moste disordred rowte / off moste godles people : then he semeth to doo off that assemblie / which beinge indewed with the wisdome of the moste higheste / he calleth a thing consistinge off folies : and which beinge the piller off trewth he lykeneth vnto waues off the sea . By which symilitude the scripture setteth forthe the estate of the reprobate / or at leaste off the wicked which haue as yet no Iam. 1. 6. societie with our Sauiour .

Therfore to conclude / seinge that the election off the churche in her ministers / hath grounde owt off the worde off God / both in commaundement / and continuall practise / both in the olde Testamente / and in the newe : consydering also it hath allowance off commen reason / the approbacion off all times after the Apostles / as longe as ther was any sinceritie / in peace and perquution / both by councells / and Emperours decrees / both by godly writers ancient / and off our time : and considering he hath not so much as browghte an example to the contrarie / owte off any auror / and if he coulde yet the same is condemned / not onely by the worde off god / but by continuall good harmonie off councells / one in the necke of another diuers 100 yeares : and forasmuch as the Ans. hathe this question of election by the bishope onely / commen with the Papistes / and hathe had both sworde / and buckler ministred him owte off the moste grosseste Papistes : I conclude / that both the church owghte to haue her consente in the election off her ministers : and that the sole autoritie / off bishops creating ministers / is vnlawfull .

Vnto this question off election / and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract . of ceremonies in ordeining : off which the 2. Diuision beinge answered / and the first / and third vnworthy of answer / there remaineth onely the fowrth . Againste that he alledgeth / that the bishop mighte as well say receiue the holy goste to the ministers made by him , as to vse the wordes off the Lordes supper , Pag. 228. I replied that there was a commaundement for the one , and not for the other : wherunto he saith / that there is no speciall commaundement , Which is no answer . For if the generall commaundement off kepinge that whole institution / doo comprehende this beinge aparte theroff / then the argument standeth . That he bringeth off the minister , sayinge withowt inconuenience This is my bodie , and in recitall off the commaundementes , thow shalte haue no other god but me : is nothing worthe / seinge the inconuenience is taken away by preface / off God spake thes wordes : Christe tooke bread , &c. The place of Timothe with Maister Caluins exposition / is vtterly impertinent . For it is not question whether God doth gyue his giftes to them which he calleth / or no : but whether he giueth them by this means / of sayinge receiue , &c. where he saith / that the Apostels when they laide on their hands , likely vsed thes wordes : it is vntrwe / considering that Saincte Luke / pursuing the leste of those ceremonies which were vsed / made no mencion off it / being in the D. iudgement / worthiest off all other to be followed . And if they had vsed yt / yet yt folowed not that the bishops maie doo it : considering that it was proper onely to the Apostles / to giue the giftes off the holy goste / by layinge on off handes .

Where he saith / that Christe commaundinge the sea to be quiet , and breathing vppon his disciples , confirmed his diuinitie : I answer that he did the same / in commaunding to receiue the holy goste / which otherwise he woulde haue praied for / as at other times when he gaue testimonie off his humanitie . Caluin althowgh he vse not the same 4. lib. Instit. 19. c. 29. sect. Ioh. 11. 43. Mat. 9. 5. example / yet vseth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes wordes / receiue the holy goste , with those being saide to Lazarus dead in his graue / come forth , and to the Palseie man / ryse , and walke . And his breathing beinge the Sacrament off those wordes receiue the holy goste : they muste off necessitie be referred to the same ende . So that if our Sauiour woulde declare his deuinity by one : it was his minde to doo the same by the other . And if because he instituted a minister by those wordes / they are to be vsed : then the breathing also must lykwise / considering that he vsed that / for the confirmacion off the wordes . Where he saith / they conteine a perpetuall promise , off the presence off the spirite , with those which Christe shall call : euen so doth the commaundinge off the sea / &c. to be quiet / conteine a perpetuall promise / that the winde / and sea shoulde ryse / and fall / for the profite off those which be the Lordes . But as there is no promise / that that shall be in abating their rage / so foundainly as our Sauiour Christe did : so there is no worde / that the Lorde will giue his spirite / by pronouncing off this sentence .

The bishop ( saithe he ) hath no meaninge to commaunde . Nether had the Papistes : but why he shoulde speake one thing / and meane another / he can shewe no reason . therfore our faulte beinge in this poincte / the same with the Papistes : hath the same Censure off writers / inueighing againste this vnaduised imitacion . That which is saide / that if any patron off calling is to be followed , our sauiour Christes owghte : is a grosse begging of that in controuersie / and then apparantly refuted / in that our Sauiour Christe gaue newe names in his ordination / sente forth two by two / commaunded Mar. 3. 16. 17. Luk. 10. 1. Matt. 10. 10. they should cary no weapon / &c. which can haue no place in our ordinacions . Where I alledged that the reason was not one in thes wordes / and in the wordes off the supper / in that the minister doth not commaund that the bread be the body / but saith yt is : he answereth nothing .

Tract. 3. and 4. according to the D. That all ordinarie Ministeries / are annexed to a certein place .

THe A. in heaping vp certein differences / betwene the office off an Apostle / and Pastor / answereth nothing to the Diuis. 1 : pag. ●16 . matter . Yff this be true which is set downe / that they be like in this / that a certein church is to a pastor / or a minister / which the twelfth place was then amongest the Apostels : the reason off the Adm. is mainteined . For then as it was not lawfull for them / to haue proceeded vnto a newe election / if Iudas had not fallen from his ministerie : so it is not lawfull to ordeine Pastors / so longe as the place is full . likewise if the Apostels would not vndertake any election / but where they had the light / and guide off the worde off God / to shewe them the way / not onely what manner a one / but when he should be chosen : muche lesse is it lawefull for the Bishoppes . The first off thes being so cleare as the A. durst not plainly denie / he doth notwithstanding pushe at priuely / saying / that Paul , and Barnabas were added aboue the nombre off twelue . But he should haue knowen / that they were added by the Lorde / and not by the church : where he should haue shewed that the Apostels / &c. chose the thirtenth Apostle . And we denie not but the Lorde may nowe ( if yt seme good vnto him ) choose some Minister / which hath no certein place .

That which he obiecteth off Epaphroditus / &c. to be Apostels / suche as we speake off : is an absurd begging off that which is in question . Where against the second point he saith / that there is no suche thing in the Election off the Pastors , as that in their election , the scripture should be fulfilled , &c. allthoughe there be not so particular a worde / as off chusinge one into Iudas place / yet there is a certein rule / in obedience whereoff the scripture is daily fulfylled . And so falleth also his other exception / which supposeth that off one example , we make a generall rule . Considering that we craue no further helpe off that example / then the same was compassed by the worde off God . The A. grauntinge the distinction Diuis . 2. Pa 217. off ordinarie / and extraordinarie Ministeries / and yet denying that it can be warranted by the scriptures poursueth his former traine / off shrincking the scriptures . Seinge yt followeth thereuppon / that some truthe in Diuinitie / cannot be warranted by the worde off God . The question moued off the Elders / is out off place : the answer whereunto shal be differred / vnto the proper treatise . The absurd speaches which he hath here / and in the next Diuision off Apostels / Euangelistes / and Prophetes / come to be examined in the answer to his third chap.

Heere first he trifleth with his reader / whilest he supposeth Diuis. 4. pag. 229. that I ground the function off Elders / vpon the 4. off the Ephes. and that Iesteme that place a perfect rule of Ecclesiasticall functions , when as not onely I haue no syllable sounding that way : but haue declared the contrarie / in that by a long discourse in the question off the Archebishop / I haue shewed that that place is onely of the Ministeries / occupied in the worde . That which he speaketh heere off ouerseing shepherdes / and watchmen / belongeth to the 6. Diuision where yt is repeated . That off one shepherd hauing many flockes / belongeth to the question off hauing many benefices . Yt remaineth to mainteine that part off the Diuision / which setteth downe the Doctor off the church / as a seuerall member from a Pastor . Which may appeare by that the Apostle placeth them both to the Romanes / and Ephes. as diuers . Ro. 12. 7. Eph. 4. 11 beside that the giftes differing / whereby those functions are executed / and there being apt to teache / and therfore meet for the office off a Doctor / which haue no grace in exhortacion / or mouing the affections off the hearers / and therefore not so fit to be Pastors : yt must followe / that the functions be diuers .

And where the Ans. opposeth vnto vs the iudgement off one / or twoo : it is easye to shewe / not onely moe authorities off priuate men / but the vse off the Elder churches / euen from the Apostels time : Epecially in Alexandria / where the distinction off the Bishop / and Doctor off the church / is so often obserued by the ecclesiasticall story : also the coustome continued in cathedrall churches ( as they are called ) wherefrom time to time beside the Bishop / hathe bene a reader . And if thes were not distinguished : them must it needes follow / which in an other place the A. denieth / that there were ordinarily two Bishops in one church / considering that beside the Elders / and him which they commonly called the bishopp / there was also a Doctor . Nether ought it to be any hinderance to this distinction / that Saint Paul coupleth the Pastor , and Doctor together , where as he sundred the rest that goe before , by this worde Some . For the coniunction dothe not couple them in signification / but maketh them onely couples off the liberalitie off Christe / towardes his church . Especially considering that bothe this coniunction And , is oftentimes a note to couple seuerall members off one diuision : and the Apostel would rather haue saide or Doctors , then and Doctors , if he had ment to make them all one . But all this had not needed / if the Ans. woulde haue stoode by his former worde / in the writinge intitled The Doctors booke . For in sayinge / there that the Apostle in the Epistle to the Corint . speaketh onely off Apostels , Prophetes , and Doctors , Leauing out Euangelistes , and yet Euangelistes , and pastors necessarie : he dooth manifestly confesse / that thes functions differ betwene them selues . Nether can he saie / that he spake there accordinge to my sense . For I had not then ether spoken / or written any worde off that matter .

Thus in that he is called the Doctor off suche a churche / in pag. 234. parte is answered the question how yt can be shewed , that he is tied to a certeine churche . And for further answer / when as admitting that there is suche an office / he can not denie but the institution off it / is amongest other spoken of vnto Titus : all those mynisteries being appointed to a certein towne / and congregation / yt foloweth 1. Tit. 5. that that office ys likewise . Moreouer considering that exhortation / and doctrine be necessary for the interteinement off a churche in the trwe seruice off God : in that S. Paul parting thes betwene 12. Rom. 7. 8. the Pastor / and Doctor / and placing the office off the Pastor especially in exhortation / ascribeth that off teaching principally to the Doctor : yt followeth that the Pastor being tied vnto a place / the Doctor muste also . wherby is likewise answered his other question / how it can be proued , that the doctor was gyuen in aide off pag. 234. the pastor . for the pastor being by the bandes of his vocation / especially tied vnto exhortation : a supplie of teaching being nedefull / it must be fetched at his handes / whose proper profession that is . Last off all / herby appeareth / what an abuse yt is in the vniuersitie / that they are created doctors which not onely doo not the office / but haue not so muche as a certeine place assigned to teach in : which amongest other / are the two principall thinges I mislike / as vnlawfull . Where in the end off his booke he saith / that it Pag. 781. were cofusion , and Barbarisme to take away such degrees : he doth shamefull iniury to diuers reformed churches in Sauoy / and Swisserland : where all kinde of learning / and good behauiour florishing / those degrees are not . But it is to be noted that together with the churches / Musculus especially hath his part in this charge off Barbarisme , &c. The churches not hauing the other degrees in artes / which are indifferent / gyue no sentence off the Doctorshipp : but Musc. doth plainly declare his misliking . For hauing spoken against the popish Doctors / he addeth : wherfore I haue Vpon 1 : Cor. 12. often merueiled , what diuers notable ministers off Christ meane , that they glory so much off the title off an vniuersitie Doctorship : as though any autoritie came to their doctrine therby . Where it is knowen that those whom he ment / were modest / gloriyng no further / then that as a meanes to draw more credit to their ministery / they receyued it : which Muscul to wcheth them for . Therfore onles he had bene driuen headlong / he would at least haue left his degrees indifferent : and not such as withowt which / no godly honestie / nor ciuilitie can stand .

In the next diuision his answer is vnsufficient . For the reason against reading Ministers / is not onely because they are appoincted to no certein place : but for that they are vtterly without all ministerie / and whether euer they shal be or no / yt hangeth ether off their owne / or off their patrones pleasure . So that if ether he forthincking him selfe / like the shop better then the churche : or the patrone will kepe the dore shut against suche insufficient men / which the bishopp opened so wide : or ( as sometime falleth out ) they can not agree of their market : yt comet to passe that he is made a Minister / which ether can not / or will not / not onely not fulfill / but not so much as lay hand off that ministerie / whereunto he was appointed . Contrary vnto the rule off Saint 1. Timo. 3. 10. Paul / that leueth not this in choise : but commaundeth precisely / that if after triall they be found blameles / they should exercise their ministerie .

To proue that there may be a rouing ministerie / and some which may haue the walk of a whole prouince / here is first alledged Diuis. 6. pag. 220. that the Apostels visited the places where there were seuerall Pastors . Whereunto the answer is / that that function off the Apostels was extraordinary ( as shall appeare ) and therfore at no hand to be drawne vnto our times . Secondly is brought the example of Darius / which beside 120. gouernoures set ouer the seuerall prouinces , made three other to ouersee the● . Wherunto I answer / that the Lord hath in assigning offices off the commen wealth / left the libertie vnto men / which he hath not doon in offices off the church . The reason whereoff is manifest : considering that they bothe are off greater sufficiency to ordeine offices / for the commodities of this life / then for those off the life to come : and the errour in appointing of them / is not so daungerous . Eusebius sheweth howe Lib. 4. de vit. Constant . Constantine inuented newe degrees off honour / to pleasure those which were about him . This not being forbidden in ciuill gouernement / I thincke the A. dare not say it is lawfull to be doon in the gouernement off the church .

Hereby also is answered the surmise off kinges which being called sheapherds , should by this meanes haue their dominions restreined vnto the gouernement off one cytie . For the scripture hauing not determined / whether there should be a Prince ouer euery citie / as it hath that euery assembly should haue a pastor : and the enmities / and assaultes against the ciuill estate / not being so great / and daungerous as against the spirituall : yt can by no meanes followe / that the tying off the Minister vnto one church / should enclose the Princes aucoritie in the circuit off one citie . But it is to be obserued / that both the D. reasons / off the Apostels visiting / and of Darius pollicie / leade to Rome . For yt followeth vppon them / that one may haue ouersight of all the Ministers : seing that both euery off the Apostels / had autoritie to visite any church through the world / and euen off those three which were ouer the gouernours off 120. prouinces / Daniel was the cheif . And albeit we leaue no place / ether to those rouing / or owtgrowne ministeries : yet the sheapherds / and watchmen want not therefore their ouerseers , considering that the Ecclesiasticall Senate / doth not onely watch ouer the body off the church : but euery one off them ouer an other / and especially ouer the mynister . off thes also as euery one in brotherly equalitie ought to admonishe : so iontly they haue autoritie not onely to admonishe / but by Ecclesiasticall censures to chastise the default off their minister . Yf they also faile / the Synodail assemblies haue interest / as I haue before alledged . And if the fault be suche as requireth cyuill punishement : the Magistrate is the watchman / appointed off God for that pourpose .

Where he saith that a similitude maketh a matter plaine , but proueth not : when I added / they were argumentes drawne off the nature off thinges / wherunto the Ministers are likened / and are for the moste part vsed by the holy gost himselfe : I preuented that obiection / wherunto the S. saithe nothing . But if they proue nothing / because they were similitudes : then his answers to ouerthrowe them / being bare similitudes / and in thinges wherein they be compared moste vnlike / are insufficient . The rest off the second section off this diuision / which is almoste a whole syde / ys perteining to the question off Residence / and off hauing twoo benefices . Vnto thes argumentes which I vsed / as howe they should know his voice , when they can not heare yt ? acknowledge him , when they can not know him : followe him when they can not see him goe before ? or howe he should heale their diseases , when he can not possibly knowe them ? he answereth Diuis. 7. pag 222. 1. Tit. 5. Act. 14. 23. not a worde .

That S. Paul in commaunding to appoint Elders throwghe euery citye / ment euery companie off the faithfull / rysing vnto a nombre conuenient to meet in one assemblie : yt is manifest by the place off Saint Luke / where yt is saide / that elders were ordeined thorowghout euery congregation . Wherunto albeit the Ans. could say nothing / yet in pressing the word cytie / he sheweth his good will . Vnto this yt may be added / that the scripture vseth oftentimes for shortnes sake / by a cytye to comprehend as well townes / and villages / as the great cities . For where Saint Matthew hath citie / or towne / S. Luke hath citie onely : and in Mat. 10. 11. Luk 10. 8. diuerse places off the tenth of Saint Matth. 9 and 10. off Luke / the precepts gyuen off the Apostels behauiour in the cities / are necessarily vnderstanded off other places . Likewise that both M. Beza / and Erasmus reformed herein the ould translatour / changing his translation off citie by citie ( as that which attained not fully to the meaninge off the Apostle ) into a more generall speach / off towne by towne . This shall yet better appeare / in the 3. cha. 8. Tract. where it shal be shewed / howe the institution off God is / that a Bishop shoulde be not off a diocese ( such as ours ) or prouince / but off a particular church . Which treatise I would haue drawne hyther / as vnto the proper place / but that these places are so intangled with the question off the Dominion off the Bishop / that I could not without too great trouble off the reader / seuer yt . Where he saithe that Saint Paul commaunding to appoint Ministers to certein places , did not thereby forbid Titus to make Ministers hauing no certeine place : he should vnderstand / that S. Paul knewe he had to doo with one / which had learned well that lesson off the lawe off God / Thow shalt onely doo that which I commaund the. And it is shamefull iniurie doon to Titus / once to thincke that he made kindes off Ministeries / whereof he had no commission by the Apostle . The rest is nothing / but a manifest begging off that which is in question .

Where I alledged the councell off Calcedon / that none shoulde be ordeined losely / but vnto some speciall congregation : the D. being at a bay / and hauing no place to escape / commeth vpon me with open mouth / and will beare the reader in hand / that I haue falsified the Councell , and why ? forsooth becawse I haue left out these wordes , Or in the place off Martyrs buriall , or in monasterie . I left them out in deed / because we haue no vse off 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . them . Howbeit what syllable is there here / which helpeth him / or in all the canon which he hath set downe ? That the councell men● not , that a man must off necessity be ordeined to a certein place , but that he should haue some stay off liuing : is directly contrary to the councells wordes / which expresseth the first plainly / and off the later speaketh nor a word . The reasons vsed haue not so much as any sense / and are drawen first from the filthie puddle off Popish diuinity / that there be eccesiasticall ministeries withowt cure / and places not neding any pastorall charge : wheras if those monasteries &c. were lawfull assemblies / euery ecclesiasticall ministery was as necessary for them / as for other . Afterward they are drawne from a shameles corruption off the councels wordes / by sworne ennemies off all good order in the church : which to ouerthrowe a plaine meaning / haue interpreted withowt hauing some title , withowt hauing some possession , or liuing .

And that I haue set downe the true meaning off this councell / may easely appeare by an other : which forbad this wandring from citie to citie . For Theodoret reprehending Eusebius Theod. 1. 19. bishop off Nicomedia / for leauing his owne church to be bishop in an other : alledgeth a canon wherby yt was ordeined / that none ether bishop , or elder should goe from citie to citie . Wherby appeareth / they had all certein places . Yea the D. Denis shall giue testymony vnto vs in this behalf / whose wordes be : we haue appoincted to euery elder his proper parish , and church 1. Tom. conc . Epis. ad Seuer . yeard , and ordeine that euery one kepe his owne right , so that none enter into the boundes off an other parish : but euery one content him self with his owen , and so gouerne the church committed vnto him , that he may giue account , &c. But that this shameful : facing off the D. may be manifest / I will set downe Caluins iudgement off this canon / wherby shall better appeare who hath vsed most faith herein / he or I. Speaking against the Popish making off ministers / he saith : But it was ordeined in Inst. 4. li. ca. 5. se. 4. the councell off Calcedon , that there should be no absolute ordeining off ministers , that is to say , onles there were a place assigned , where the ordeined might exercise his charge . Here is the same sense / and exposition off the councell which I haue followed / as full in euery point . now let vs heare owt off what schoole the D. exposition commeth . He addeth a litle after : But our Romish maisters , which thincke nothing to be cared for but the belly , fyrst interprete a title , a sufficient reuenue wherby he may be able to liue , whether left off his freindes , or by some benefice . Therfore ordeining a priest , or Deacon if he able to liue , they giue him the degree : not regarding where he should exercise his ministery . But who will euer admit , that the litle which the councell requireth , is a yerely reuenue to mainteine himselfe with ? And after shewing other fraudes / Sect. 5. wherby they haue deluded other councells / which confirmed this / he addeth is yt not alwaies absurd , to ordein an elder , to whom there is no place appointed ? wherby appeareth not onely Calu. iudgement off this question : but how impudent a corruption off the councell / he estemeth this / which the D. so greatly alloweth .

The councell off Vrbane owght to make the D. blush : and the corruptions which he to so small pourpose / chargeth his booke with / cause it to speake so lowde / that the very deafe eares owght to heare . For this diuinity off the later popery which he mainteineth / being condemned off the former : hath therby a brand of corruption / wherby it may be knowen . Consydering that popery geue still from euill to worse / and that it was not able to put this order off the church to flight : vntill yt approching vnto her full age / had gotten greater strenght off wickednes . What Ierome hath of this matter / I haue shewed . In the next Diuision beside this question / whether yt be conuenient for a minister to take wages , which can liue off his owne / which I will not enter into / there is nothing but bare repetition / and open petition of that in controuersie . The next chap. of Ceremonies in ordeining , is answered before .

That functions off Apostels / Euangelistes / and Prophetes are not ordinarie . Chap 3. pag 229.

TO th end it may be better vnderstanded / that the D. hath here in maintenance of his Anabaptisticall dreame / so confusedly turned vppon heapes : I will first mainteine the argumentes which I haue set downe : after answer vnto his reasons taken out of the scripture : thirdly shewe howe impudently he hath abused the autoritie / both of elder / and later writers / to couer this phrenesie . Which shal be doon so much the shorter / as he is vnworthye any answer at all . First to nip at the distinction off ordinary / and extraordinary functions / receiued off all which haue but a sparkle off iudgemente / he saith / that the gift off foretelling thinges to come , was for the tyme wherin yt was , ordinary . Which beside that yt is senseles / yt being ordinary in this part / which is doon by a setled order / and rule appointed off God vnto his church : yt ys also from the pourpose / consideringe / that the question is not off an ordinary function / in the beginning off the Gospell : but off the gospell symply / which reacheth to the whole estate off the church / vnder the Gospell . Therfore forasmuch as he can not deny / but such Prophetes ( if any were ) should nowe be extraordinary : the distinction standeth .

After to that I set downe off the word Apostel , extended in the proper signification to all Ministers that are sent , which the knowledge of the Greek word might haue led him to / he opposeth Diuis. 2. pa. 230. Caluin / which saith / in the proper signification it onely comprehendeth the nombre off 12. Wherin he declareth himselfe but a trifler . For onles he be at defiance with his grammer : he shal be constreined will he nill be / to confesse it to be true which I haue set downe . That which Maister Caluin saith / is not contrary : considering that where I spake off the generall vse off the worde / he spake of the vse off it in the newe Testament / where it is most vsually taken in that sense . As for that he saith / it is the proper signification : he meaneth not the naturall as I ment / and expressed : but the particular / in which sense proper is also taken / which appeareth in that he calleth the other generall . Vpon Philip. 2. pag. 231.

Where I assigned a proper note off an Apostell , to be called immediatly off God : he setteth him selfe to confute it / when a litle before he had statly confessed / that yt is a thing proper vnto the Apostels , to be called off God immediatly . His first exception is of Matthias , pag. 229. which he saith was not so chosen : which is vtterly vntrue : where he saith also that I confesse the same : that is an open vntruth . For pag. 132. I shewed that the election out off those two / was permitted vnto lot that thereby the Lord might from heauen / declare whom he would haue to be an Apostell . So that the church chose no Apostle / but onely chose twoo off the which one was taken by the Lord / to be an Apostle . His other exception is off Barnabas , which being an Apostle ( as he saith ) appeareth by the 11. off the Actes , not to haue bene called immediatly : where there is not a word which confirmeth that / and therfore he durst not note the place / whereoff he gathered yt . Where he saith it can not be proued by the scripture , that he was so called : he beggeth the thing in controuersie / not able to answer the reasons alledged . For where he saith / that S. Paul doth not say that he sawe Christ to proue that he was an Apostel , but to proue that he was not inferiour to other Apostels : he is manifestly confuted both by the wordes going before / and folowing after . For hauing propounded this for his question / am I not an Apostell , 1. Cor. 9 12. and not as he saith / am I inferior to any Apostel : he addeth for a reason / haue I not seen Christe . And in the next wordes that followe / yf I be not an Apostell vnto others , yet I am to yow , he declareth that the estate off the question is there / whether he were an Apostel / or no. To that I alledged off the protestantes / prouing that the Pope can not be Peters successour , because there is no succession into the office off an Apostell : he aswereth not .

To that I alledged off Epaphroditus called an Apostel , not in respect of the ministrie of the word , but as sent with relief Diuis. 3. pa 231. vnto Saint Paul : he patcheth out an answer almost of as many coulors / as he alledgeth autorities . out off the Centuries / that he was an Apostel in that sense that Paul , and the rest off the Apostels were . Which beside that yt is false ( they onely affirming that he was an Apostel ) is cleane contrary to that he alledgeth out off Caluin / that it is taken there generally , for any sent to preach : and therefore it can not be taken in that signification off Apostels / in which the 12 and Paul. yt is contrary also to that owt off Ambrose / which saying that he was therefore called an Apostel , because he was sent off Paul : confirmeth in part that which I haue set downe / that he was called an Apostle / not in respect off any dignitie off ministery / aboue others Ministers off the word : but onely in that he was sent . Finally contrary to that alledged owt of Theodoret / which so calleth hym an Apostle : that forthwith also he maketh him to be a Bishop . When as if he be a Bishop / he can not be such an Apostell as the 12. considering that they be twoo seuerall members off the ministers off the Gospell / differing by the D. owne confession / at the least in the place of exercise off their misterie : the bishop hauing an especiall bonde to his Bishopricke / and the Apostel preaching Where he thincketh need

Where he saithe also that it confirmeth his side , that he is called the Apostell off the Philippians , and other the Apostels off the churches , for that thereby it may appeare , that one may be Apostel off a kingdome , or off a prouince : he dalieth with his reader . For in that place I alledged out off the 2. Corinthes 8. the Apostels off the churches are not so called / in respect off any ministery off the word / but off the almes which they were sent with . And beside that the church off the Philip. was nether prouince nor kingedome / but a particular church : Epaphroditus is not called their Apostel / in that he was sent off Saint Paul vnto them : but in that the Philip. sent him to Saint Paul : as the wordes which followe immediatly after / obserued off Maister Beza doo declare . So that yf that place proue 2. Phil. 25. an Apostel : yt proueth one sent / not to a prouince / or kingedome / but vnto one singular person onely . But who would voutsafe an answer / to such scrapinges ?

Against that I alledged to proue / that Iunias / and Adronicus were no Apostels / for that a man may be famous amongest Diuis. 4. pag. 232. the Apostels / and yet no Apostel : he opposeth Martyr , that semeth to doubt whether the wordes will beare that sense : which I leaue to the readers iudgement . The other reason that S. Paul calleth them kinsfolke / and fellowe prisoners / and not fellow labourers / which his vse is when he speaketh of those / which haue any ministery of the gospell : he towcheth not . He hathe raked vp to no no pourpose a number off bare opinions / which I will not wrestell with : considering that nothing thereby falleth from our cause . For if both Epaphroditus / and these be Apostels / such as Paul / and Barnab . I refer my self to that where I haue shewed / that that function is ceassed . If in the generall signification / for that they are sent to preach : yt maketh nothing to the question / seing the D. must shewe that there is an ordinary particular function off Apostelship / seuered from the office off a Pastor / Euangelist / and Prophete . Where he saith / he alledged them to proue that some nowe may preache , which haue no certein clere : I could not thinck himso forsaken off all iudgement / that he would make such a conclusion : howbeit I trust nowe he hath his answer .

That I alledged the Apostels declaring that they would not haue this order continued in the church , in that they renewed not that order of Apostels , as they were taken away by death : he answereth / first that the scripture doth not expresse it . As yf S. Luke which so diligently described the election off Matthias / would haue quit ouerleaped this / if there had bene any . And considering that they had not such cause to drawe them to a newe consultation of a newe Apostel / as in the 1. Act. which was an expresse word / off taking an other into the roume off Iudas : it is manifest that they attempted no such thing after . So that alththough yt be not expressed : yet it is conteined in scripture / that there was no consultation off an other Apostel . Yf not / howe is he ( as he saith ) persuaded / that there was none chosen into their places ? or how knoweth he / that it was not necessarie ? will he still haue his persuasions in diuinitie / without the word ? without which they are no persuasions / but idle phansies . After he asketh who euer saied , that there muste be twelue Apostels , nether more nor lesse ? as though my reason tended to that . But yf the Apostels did not vphould that small nomber off twelue / which the Lord instituted : yt proueth that their minde was / not to choose about that nomber . And if they would not continue 12. to gather the ●2 . tribes off Israel / scattered thoroughe the whole worlde : they ment not that there should be a greater nomber / to gather those which were scattered in one Iland ,

To that I alledged off Ambrose / which saith / that he would not take vpon him the estate of an Apostel : he answereth / that Diuis. 72 pag. 234. he saied so , to abase him selfe , because in an other place , he chalengeth not the circumspection off a pastor . will he neuer wake out off this sleepe ? for to let passe that not to acknowledge the grace of God bestowed on him / is a fault / as to chalenge that which he hath not receiued : and not to enter here into his abilitie / of doing the office of a Pastor : doth he not see that the cawse off not taking vpon him the estate off an Apostel / is assigned not in his disablenes / but in that which the greatest wit / learning / and godlines off those times / could not come vnto / that is to say / that none could chalenge Ad Trall . & al. the office off an Apostell , but he whom the sonne off God him selfe had chosen ? He might aswel say / that it is a point off great modestie for a man to professe / that he cannot clyme vp into heauen / withowt a ladder . Nether is this Ambrose iudgement onely / but Ignatius : which in those epistles that the D. will haue rightly borne / saith that he will not commaund them any thinge , as an Apostell . In deed a a Euse . 7. lib. 31. Nouatus a runnegate / b b August : Tom. 6. catal . heresi . Manes a Phranticke / c c Orthodoxo . in vit. eius . Martiall a coleprophet / d d Epist. Bonif. ad Lanfr . Romish Augustine / the Anabaptistes off our time / and such brambels haue intitled them selues by the name off Apostels / and taken vpon them to ordeine others : but all that haue had together with pietie / any spark off iudgement / haue beside their heresies condemned also this phrensie . e e Lib. Epist. 2. Cyprian reprocheth Nouatus / that he sent forth newe Apostels . f f Cont. epist. fundam . & l. 1. de Act. cum Felice , August . presseth the Manicheans once / or twise : which saied / they were Apostels / and demaundeth what scripture they could shew / to shew themselues Apostels . Whereby he declareth that he estemed no other Apostels / then which had particular testimonie off the scripture : which thing he neuer laide to the charge off other orders off the Manichean Ministers . g g Zuingl . Ecclesias . Zuinglius also chargeth the Anabaptistes / aswell for that they tooke vpon them the office : as also for that they chalenged the name / off Apostel .

But the D. seing his folie laide open to the derision off younge children / hath in fauour off his Apostels / and Prophetes / inuented a newe distinction . For where I alledged certeine proper markes off the Prophetes / as foretelling thinges to come / and Apostels / as immediat calling from God / seing off Christ / embassadge into the whole world / which not falling into any function nowe in vse / proue that they are ceassed : he aswereth / that Pag. 229. 231. 218. Prophetes , and Apostels in such respectes are ceassed , but continue still as towching preaching the gospell . Then which what can be more bluntly spoken ? For yt as much as yf one should say / that a beast is a man / although not in respect that it hath a naturall capacity off reason / and speach : yet in that it liueth / and hath sense as a man . For as a man / and a beast being both liuing thinges / are seuered one from an other by their properties / and speciall differences ( as they be called off the Logicians ) : euen so Apost. Prophetes / Euangelistes / Pastors / Doctors / being all preachers off the Gospell / are seuered by that wherein they differ / one from an other . And as he can be no man which hath none off those differences / whereby a man is seuered from other liuing thinges : so he can not be Prophete / or Apostel / which hath nothing whereby he may differ / from a Pastor / Doctor / or Euangelist . Yt is also too childishe / that he vnderstandeth not how the difference off a thing ( which is the substantiall forme ) being taken away / the thing it selfe can not remaine .

Therefore yf the D. will haue Apostels / Prophetes / and Euangelistes remaine : he must shew howe both euerie one off those / nowe differ from them selues / and from the functions off Pastor / and Doctor . In which behalf he hath bene hacking / but his tooles will not enter . For this newe Apostels office , is placed in preaching the word where need requireth : the Prophetes in an especiall gift off 129. interpreting the scriptures : the Euangelistes office being set betwene three opinions / as it were three stooles / ether off preaching more feruently then other , or off preaching the gospell , or off preaching symply , falleth flat to the ground . For howe dare he take vpon hym to set vp Euangelistes / when as appeareth here / and especially pa. 407. he knoweth not what their office is , and wherein it consisteth ? Which might haue serued him for a peece off instruction / that that function is ceassed . For euen as the Iewes if they were not altogether blinded / might vnderstand that the Lord hath taken away the difference off cleane / and vncleane beastes / in that ( by their owne confession ) they can not come to the knowledge off meates forbidden : euen so if ( as he saith ) the Lord hath not left any exact knowledge in the scriptures of this office / beside other reasons / he declared by this also / that his meaning was / that it should haue no continuance . Considering that there is no office off continuance / whereoff all the partes / haue not a full sight / and manifest shewe in the scriptures .

But let the Answ. reape that he neuer sue / and not able to proue any / let him enioy ether all / or that signification off Euangelistes / which serueth his turne best . First it can not be denied / but all these three agree in preaching off the gospell . Likewise that which the D. assigneth in the description off Apostels / that they preach where need requireth , agreeth vnto his Euangelistes / and Prophetes / both by the practise of their offices in the scripture : and by the D. owne confession / especially in Euangelistes / whose ministrie he appointeth in going from place to place . This difference then remaineth / that Euangelistes do preach with greater zeale then other , the Prophetes with greater dexteritie off interpreting . Wherein first he is a small freind off the Apostels . Whom contrary to their Ephes. 4. 11. Cor. 1. 12. 28. institution / he hath thrust downe vnder the degre off Prophetes / and Euangelistes / which hauing certen giftes off Zeale / and dexteritie off interpreting aboue them : muste needes haue the vpper hand . Secondly he hath gyuen a checke to the Prophetes / whom the scripture preferring before / he placeth behinde the Euangelist . Ephes. 4. 11. For the gift off Zeale in preaching the word symply / being more excellent then to haue a speciall dexteritie / and red●nes in interpreting ( th one proceding off greater knowledge / thother off greter loue ) : the office whereunto yt is knit / muste needes be higher . Thirdly let him shewe / how thes Euangelistes / Prophetes / and Apostels / may be chaunged into Pastors . For yf their giftes off interpretation / and Zeale / be greater than fall into a Pastor : then yt is nether lawfull for the Bishop to admit / nor for them to accept the office off a pastor / after they haue once exercised thes offices : which is directly contrary to the practise off our churches . Fourthly if there be such offices / why are they not ordeined euery one to their seuerall function : Apostels to their Apostelship / Prophetes to their Prophetship / Euangelistes to their Euangelist ship ? that they may knowe to what kinde of Ministerie to applie themselues / and poursue after that gift / which is moste agreable with their office . Fiftly / considering that yt is commen to them all to preache whereneed requireth / how commeth yt to passe / that some beinge restrained vnto a Diocese / other haue for their circuit / a whole prouince / other a whole realme / other two realmes off England / and Ireland ? or if this diuersitie off limitation / make diuersitie off function : let him tell vs / which off thes we shall take for Apostels / which for Prophetes / which for Euangelistes . But there would be no end / yf I should poursue all the absurdities / which hang vpon this assertion . I come therefore vnto that spoken a part off the Euangelistes .

He saith that he hath shewed by scripture , reason , and autoritie , Diuis. 5. pa. 233. that thoughe the name off an Euangelist be changed , yet the office remaineth : which is moste vntrue . For nether hath yt any autoritie at all / and yt is both against reason / and scripture / that the office by his saying remaining fully / and in all pointes : the name should be Diuis. 2. pa. 217. chaunged . I say by his saying fully / and in all pointes / forasmuch as that towching writing off the gospell ( wherein onely he maketh our Euangelistes / to differ from those in the Apostels time ) shal be shewed not to apperteine vnto the office off an Euangelist / such as Saint Paul speaketh off . Where I saide it is against reason / that the name shoulde be taken away : both I saide it for that there is a profitable admonition in it / to kepe them in remembrance off their dutie : and for that it conteineth a marke off Honour / aboue certein other ministers . Which being a part off reward / ought not to be cut of from them / which doo faithfully bestowe themselues in that office . yt is against scripture manifestly : which by this meanes is set to schoole / whilest the name which yt gaue being caste aside / an other as more fit / is receiued . Whereunto ad / that it is against commen experience . For it commeth often to passe / that the duties commaunded falling away / the names anexed vnto them remaine : but that they remaining / the names ( especially which cary a note off honour / that men so willingly lay hould of ) weare out / is very seldome / or neuer heard off . So that here I haue to thancke the D. which putteth me in remembrance off a very probable reason / against all his newe found aswel Prophetes / and Apostels / as Euangelistes . Which is / that for so much as the names were worne out many ages agoe / the offices them selues had also an end : and forasmuche as no ordinary minister nowe / owght to be called by thes titles / or being called to receiue them : ther fore the offices whereof these be the names / are ceassed . Otherwise these titles both ought to be giuen / and may be receiued / as well as those of bishop / or Pastor / and Doct.

Where I alledge that Timothe , and Philip Euangelistes , had their vocation confirmed by miracle : towching Philip he maketh an outcrie / for that he was entred into his ministerie off Euangelistship , before the miracle 8. Act. 29. As if the same came not to passe Num. 17. 8. in Aron / which had his calling confirmed by miracle / long after he had don the office of the high priest . Likewise he answereth / that it was rather doon for the Eunuches sake , then for Philips . Albeit yt were so / yet by that ( rather ) is not shut forth / that yt was doon for Philips . If he had learned that Dauid / and other seruantes off 1. Sam. 27 1. Psal. 116 11. God / come oftentimes ether through small successe in their ministrie / or manifould contradictions off the wicked / or sense off their owne weakenes / into doubt off their calling : he would not haue found it so straunge / that the seruantes off God in their owne respect / haue had these confirmacions . Where he saith / these particular examples make no generall rule : I shewed the likelihood / wherevpon I thought the rest to haue the same / forsomuch as these twoo which the scripture onely calleth Euangelistes / had that confirmation . Which I leaue to the iudgement of the reader .

Where he saith / the place 1. Tim. 1. 18. proueth not that Timo. had his calling confirmed by miracle , first becawse Prophecie is no miracle , then becawse he being ordeined by putting on off handes , needed no confirmaton by miracle : the first is nothing but daliance in the word / my meaning being apparant / which is / that he was by an extraordinary calling / and in our Ministers vnwonted . Albeit yff to haue thinges hid / and which no knowledge off man is able to come vnto foretould / be miraculous : yt can not be denied / but that a Prophecie may in a generall sense / be called a miracle . The other exception is friuolous : considering that both Paul / and Barnabas which were miraculously called of the holy gost / by the voice off the Prophetes / vnto acerten ministerie / had notwithstanding for a further confirmacion / the laying on off handes Act. 13. 3. off the Mynisterie off Antioche . And yt ys also vngoddly / as that which directly contrarieth Sainct Paul which drawing argumentes for the confirmacion off Timothe / as well off that Propheceie / as off the imposition off handes : esteemed them both needfull . That which he addeth / that there is 1 Tim. 4. 14. 2. Timo. 1. 6. no mention off any Euangelistship in that place off Timothe : is vnworthy any answer .

An other answer is / that Timoth. was Bishop . in proofe whereoff like an euill shoomaker as one saide / which putteth a great shoo on a litle foot / he hath spent a whole sheet off papir . When Diuis. 59. pa. 404. Agesilaus in Plutar . yf he had gained this point / yt would serue him to small aduantage : which notwithstanding how far he is from / shall plainely be seen . Therfore to giue the onset off this great heape / his first reason that Timothe was bishop , because the Epistels written vnto him conteine the office off a bishop : proueth as well that he was a Deacon / a widowe / a man / a woman / old / young / and consequently a monstre : seing he wrote off all their duties . Yea rather that he was a Deacon . Considering that there is nothing in the description off a Deacon / which agreeth not vnto him : but in the description off a bishop / that which he requireth off not being giuen to wine , and not being a young Christian , could haue no place in Timothies instruction : nourished in the truth from his 2. Tim. 3. 15. cradel / and so sparing in the vse off wine / that S. Paul was faine to call him to a more liberall vso off it . let him shew therfore but one onely precept directed vnto Timothe in both those Epistels 1. Timo. 5 23. which is proper vnto a bishop : nay let him shew one procept ( that onely excepted which I alledged / off doing the worck of an Euangelist ) which owght not as well to haue bene obserued off the Apostel him self / yf he had tawght where Timothe did . Yf he be able to shew no one such point / which maketh him to differ from other ministers of the word : then all may see how vaine a reason this is / which he hath made the growndsell off this cawse .

His second reason drawne ( as he calleth yt ) off the subscription of the second Epistle / is as vaine . For who is there onles be which hath his nose stuffed / with selfe willed preiudice against the truth / that can not easely smell that subscription / not to be in the canon off the holy scripture ? for considering that he had in the beginning off the Epistle / made the direction vnto Timothet what needed he in the subscription / repete the same againe ? Likewise that he was first , and that he was ordeined , or chosen by voice : sauoreth not S. Paul. Considering that yf there were any such thing / both Timot. and the Ephesi . knew it well : and there was more cawse to write that in the former Epistel / then in this whereby he calleth him from thence : also in the superscription / then in the subscription . seing it is contrary to all vse of letters / to set ether the name / or titles off him to whom we write / in the subscription / or vnderwriting of our letters . This riot / and disorder hardly happen vnto a man off meane Iudgement / and shall we thinke that they were committed off Saint Paul / or rather of God by him ? last off all / that the subscription hath was written , and not written , and when Paul appeared , not when I / or when I Paul appeared : doth manifestly argue / that yt was none off his / considering that there ys no suche subscription in all his Epistles / where he speaketh off him self / in the third person . And seing in those thinges wherein he vsed the hand off an other / which copied out his letters / he neuer vseth that manner of speache : that he would vse yt in the subscription / which can not be otherwise esteemed then off his owne hand / yt is altogether incredible ▪

Where for confirmation off this he saith / that it is so in the most , best , and auncientest greeke copies : him self setdowne his answer / which he is not able once to remoue . For yf those subscriptions be vntrue / as appeareth / especially in that of the first epistle to the Cor. which haue testimonie off the moste / best / and auncientest writers / as well as this : how cometh yt to passe / that there being the selfe same autoritie in both / yt should be off such strenght in Beza . vpon the 1. Cor. in this subscription / which is off no value in the other ? nay when that subscription to the Cor. hath the testimonie off all greeke copies / and this off his is forsaken not onely off the Syriake paraphrase / but off diuerse the auncientest greeke copies : howe is he not ashamed to lay such weight off this cawse / in that testimonie ? Vpon 1. Timot. yt is true therefore that M. Beza saith / that these subscriptions were not S. Pauls / but some others / for the most part ether vnlearned / or not so well aduised .

His third reason is drawne off autoritie off writere . wherein not to examin howe truly he hath alledged these places / as a thing vnworthy the tourning off a leafe / nor to speake off his fond allegation off diuers autorities / especially Chrysostome / and Theodoreis / which make no manner mention off any bishopely state off Timothe / off Zuinglius twise cited which making th office off a bishop / and Euangelist one / serueth not to proue / ether that he was more a bishop then an Euangelist / or that the same may haue diuers functions at once : I say not to examin these / they are all ( yf I would vse his owne weapon ) ouerthrowne pag. 325. in a word / that histories are not curious , in calling men by their seuerall titles . If that be true in histories / which off all other seeke after euen from the cradell to the graue / thinges of les importance / then the office which a man hath borne / ether in church / or commen wealth : much more is it in other writers . But that writers especially when they speake by the way / and not off set pourpose / speake thus / and call men by vnpropertitles : shal be once answered against all the rakinges / both here / and pag. 230. when I come to the D. arguments whereby he proueth Prophetes / Euangelistes / Apostles / &c. In the meane season I will not sticke to confesse / that diuers off these writers / histories especially ( peraduenture deceiued by that subscription ) estemed him a bishop / and no Euangeliste . But what then ? if they were for one a 100. they can not counteruaile / much lesse beare downe / the testimonie of the Apostle . ● . Timot. 4. 5.

Howbeit not all the auncient writers / are ( as he vntruly saith ) of that iudgement . For not to speake of Ambrose / which calleth Timot. a Deacon / where he opposeth a Deacon to a bishop : In Epist. ad Phil. Ad Trall . Ignatius an auncient writer saith / that he was a Deacon / and that where he deuiding the ministeries off the church into Bishopes / and Deacons / &c. doth openly oppose a Deacon to a bishop . Where all his testimonies are not able to aford one sentence / wherein Timothè is so called a Bishop / that he is opposed / vnto an Euangelist . Therfore althowghe thes places proue him nor an Euangelist : yet they haue more to proue that he was no bishop / that all those to proue him a bishop / which are raked here together . Albeit Ignatius missing the proper name / assigneth him the true office off an Euangelist : which was to be assistant to Saint Paul in his Apostelship . Where he saith / that all the new writers are off that minde that he was a bishop , Maister Beza onely excepted : I trust the Doctors faith in alledging autorities / ys too well knowen / to abuse the simplest any more / with these visardes . I onely had Calu. and Muscul . at hand / the reader may looke others yf he Cal insti. 4. 3. 4. Tit. de minis . ca. de off . thinke good : both which plainely say he was an Euangelist / where they handle properly the seuerall ministries off the church / and make a manifest difference betwene a bishop / and an Euangelist . And such is his dealing / that he feareth not to bring euen from thence a peece of proofe / where Calu. mouing the question / whether the word Euangelist verified off Timoth. be taken in a generall sense / for any that preacheth the word / or for that proper office 2. Tim. 4. which S. Paul expresseth to the Ephes. vppon two reasons concludeth / that he speaketh off that office off an Euangelist . Yet vppon that he saith / Timothe was excellenter then common Pastors : this trimme interpreter concludeth directly against Caluin / that he had the proper office off a Bishop , and that Caluin ment that he had a notable gift aboue the rest off the Pastors . As though Caluin reasoned not off the degree off offices / one aboue an other : but off the degree of giftes in one / and the same . Yt is too great shame to striue with suche light of wordes . Considering that he dothe there make Timothes office , a middle degree between Pastors , and Apostels : higher then Pastors / lower then Apostles .

This man also which reprocheth me as one setting the fathers together by the eares , without cawse where the disagreement is manifest / 102. Pag. 114. and which saith symply / that yt is great iniurie to learned men , to accuse them off contrarietie with themselues : goeth about to proue Beza directly contrary vnto him selff . For where Beza sheweth Vpon 1. Tim. 1. that Saint Paul did not leue Tim. at Ephesus , as their bishop , which the D. in affirming that Beza is against him confesseth , he busieth him self / to proue him to haue contrary sentences . For proof hereoff he alledgeth / that all were bishops which S. Paul sent for from Ephesus to Miletum : and therefore Timothe being one off those which by Bezaes iudgement was sent for , must needes be a Bishop . Albeit it he graunted which Beza saith / that Tim. was sent for : yet that they were all bishops wanted proof . For all know that it is not vnwonted / to call a whole companie gathered off diuers degrees / by the title off that whereoff there are muste in the companie / without speaking to euery one by their particular titles : especially seing he speaketh indefinitely / that the holy gost , had appointed them , and not all them Bishops . Where Saint Luke saith that both the princes off the people / Elders / and Scribes / and those of the race off the highe pristes were assembled : Peter in speaking vnto Act. 4. 5. & 6. them maketh mention onely off the Princes / and Elders / without naming the scribes / and priestes / which notwithstanding he spake vnto with the rest .

But I can hardly graunt that Timothe was then sent for / to come with the rest off the Ministers vnto Miletum . considering that there was as appeareth so small a space / at the least betwene Act. 20. 4 the time which Beza supposeth Timoth. to haue bene sent to Ephesus from S. Paul / and this sending for the bishops vnto Miletum : that Timo. taking the streight course vnto Ephesus / was litle more then onely arriued / when Saint Paul sent from Miletum . Secondly for that S. Paul writeth vnto Timothe / that he left Trophimus / one off his companions in that iourney / 2. Tim. 4. 20. Act 20. 4 sicke at Miletum : which had bene nedeles yf Timothe had bene with Paul / as the bishops off Ephesus were / vntill he parted from Miletum . Thirdly / for that S. Paul in that oration vnto the bishops / saith that he knew that none off them should see his Act. 20. 25. 38. face any more : which he would neuer haue saide off Tim. His other reason that he calleth him president , a generall word agreing to any in preeminence / is nothing worth . That which he ioineth to backe yt with / as added by Beza out off Cypri . that the Bishop ruled the colledge off Seniors : the place is in his confessions / and not where he assigneth . howbeit yt maketh nothing to the pourpose . For althowgh the Bishops were presidentes in the Eldership in Cyprians time / when that office was the highest in the churche : yet yt followeth not therefore / that the bishops were alwayes the first in the Apostels times / when there were higher functions . Onles the D. will say that the bishops toke the vpper hand off the Apostels / and Prophetes / when they came vnto their churches / and ioyned them selues vnto their consultations .

And albeit yt hath appeared / and shall appeare that the Answ. hath not wun so much as a poore cottage : yet as though he had taken great Babylon / or Niniue / he maketh his Triumphes : which yf he had had any hould off him self / at least he might haue differred / vntill he had answered the reasons to the contrary . For yf ( as he moste vntruly saith ) he had all the writers calling Timothe bishop : yet yf the scripture stand for vs / yt ys reason that he with all his writers / should vaile their bonnet . Nowe therefore although he say / I forget my promis , of prouing Timothe an Euangelist : yet the reason I alledged / that the scripture so calleth pag. 232. him , will proue better memorie in this point / then he can well aford . To this reason he answereth / first that the scripture doth not call him so , but onely biddeth him doo the worcke of an Euang. which in deed is more against him . For they are sometimes called by a title / 233. which not doing the worck belonging thereunto / can not be properly so called : but they which doo the worcke which the title pretendeth / may alwaies properly be called by yt . And the vsuallest argumentes in scripture / to proue or improue a man to be such / as he beareth countenance off / are fetched from this place off effectes .

His second answer standeth off the interpetation off these wordes / the worcke off an Euangelist . Which being alledged out off Bulling. Muscul . Heming . to be preaching the gospell purely , and constantly is nothing to the pourpose . For we graunt yt is true / but that there is further vnderstanded / which may seuere hym from other ministers off the word . Whereoff Caluin assigneth Vpon 2. Tim. 4. 5. thes reasons : one that by ascribing vnto him this degree aboue that off Pastors / he might procure him more autoritie : the other that he might thereby gyue the spur to stir vp / and enforce him self to all carefull trauaile / off answering so highe a calling . Off both which reasons he assigneth a manifest cause / which is that the Apostel throughout his whole epistle / driueth vnto those two endes : This is yet clearer / for that where other titles off Apost. Prophe . &c. be caried off the scripture from their particular / vnto a generall signification : this word off Euangelist ( set a part this place in controuersie ) is not vsed but to note that proper office / opposed vnto other ministeries off the word . And therefore 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . 1. Tim. 2. 7. 2 Tim 1. 11. pag. 232. li. 3. 37. the Apostel hauing occasion to speake off this word preacher / shunneth ( as semeth ) the word Euangelist / and vseth an other : when as notwithstanding the word Euangelist was proper to holy writ / and thother commen to prophane : off which reason also I left a step / in the place before recited . Againe Eusebius ( howsoeuer otherwise he forgetteth him self ) where he speaketh off that proper office / noteth it out by the same manner of speache which the Apostell : saying / they did the worcke off Euangelistes . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Act. 17. 18. 19 1. Cor. 16. 1. Thes. 3. Act 20. Phil 1. 21. Colos. 1. Philem. Eph 4. 11 1. Cor. 12. 28. ●0 . Last off all it appeareth by that the scripture setteth forth off him / both before he was at Ephesus / and after / touchching his ministerie in many places where the Apostels had tawght before : that the worcke off Euangelist / is taken in that particular signification / whereby it is seuered from other Ministers : considering that the Euangelistes office was / to water where the Apostles had planted / and to be assistant vnto them .

His third answer is a mash / and bruing of all together / drinck fitter for horse / then men . For to be sure to make Timothe a bishop / he thinketh that one at one time / may be Apostle / Euangelist / Doctor / bishop / and I can not tell what : which is directly against the word off God . As when yt saith that God gaue some Apostels , some Prophetes : againe he set first Apostles , secondly Prophetes , &c. Againe are all Apostels , are all Prophetes , &c. Whereby appeareth / that the holy gost placeth thes diuers giftes in seuerall persones / and that they are one vnder an other : so that onles one / and the same man may at one time / be second and third / inferior and superior / before and after him selfe : yt can not be that one at one time / can be Apostle / Euangelist / &c. hetherto perteineth ( which is towched in the former booke ) that the Apostel bringeth off the likenes off constitution off our bodies / with Rom. 12. 4. 5. 1. Cor. 1● , 12. the church , that as the naturall bodie / so the spirituall of the churche / is best preserued / and mainteined in most comelines / when euery member doth his proper office : and of the contrary side / ●● th one so thother is hurt / and disfygured / when one breaketh vpon an other . Whereuppon yt is euident / how vntrue yt ys which the D. doth in so great assurance set downe : that one may be Euangelist / and Bishop at one time .

Besides that / he is confuted by his owne wordes . For if the office off an Euangelist / be to preach more feruently then others : ( which signification those three which he hath set downe onely ( as that which putteth a difference betwen yt and others ) can stand ) them he can be no bishop : considering that euery office hath his proper gift / according to the measure whereof it is exequuted . And yt is as absurd / that a bishop should preach more feruently / and beyond the measure of a bishop : as yt is that a man may leape beyond him self / ouerrun himself . yt is saide that one in his full age / differeth from him selfe in his childhood : and a man at one time / may after a sort passe hym self at an other : but that he should differ from him self / at one and the same time / as the D. iudgement implieth / this is the first tydinges I haue heard off yt . Againe yt is houlden off all that I haue red ( Zuinglius onely excepted / which maketh a bishop / and an Euangelist all one ) that both an Euangelist is not / and a bishop is / bound to a certaine place . And this difference is thus far confessed off the D. that the Pastor is more bound to one speciall church / then the Euangelist . which yf yt be true / a man being ( as he saith ) at one time both bishop / and Euangelist / may be also at one time bound / and not bound vnto one place / haue a speciall charge off one / and indifferent off all : which will be hard for him to bring to passe / without he worcke miracles .

For his reasons whereupon this opinion standeth / that Saint Paul is called a Doctor , S. Mathew , and Iohn being Apostels , are off writers 1. Tim. 2. called Euangelistes : they are far from prouing this . Touching the fyrst / Saint Paul ys not called a Doctor symply / but with addition Doctor off the Gentils : declaring that his Mynistry perteined not to one kingdome / but vnto all / which is all one with an Apostel . Towching thother / he should vnderstand that our question ys not off an Euangelist as writers / but as Sainct Eph. 4. 11 Paul taketh Euangelist : which can be by no meanes vnderstanded off him / which writeth the storie off the gospell . considering that Philip which is confessed to haue bene an Euangelist / in that sense was none . Yff he say that the Apostle ment / to set forth twoo kindes of Euangelistes / one preaching onely / an other preaching / and writing too : I answer / that Saint Paule pourposing there to set forth the liberalitie off the Lord / in giuing preaching ministries vnto the church / was nether so negligent a commender off the grace off God / nor so drie / and poore off speach : but yf there had bene an other seuerall ministerie ( as this answer supposeth ) he both would / and could haue vsed an other word / as a seuerall dishe to haue presented this gift with . And seyng the D. bringeth in S. Paul / offring one onely gift of the bishoprik / vnto the church / in two wordes as it were two dishes : Pag. 219. what likelihood ys there / that he would thrust vp so narrowly thes two giftes / whereoff ech off them being more excellent then the bishoprick / asketh greater roume ?

Moreouer by the same reason that men may call Saint Mathew / and Saint Iohn Euangelists / becawse they wrote the stories of the gospell : they may call S. Paul / and Peter / &c. For as they wrote the storie / so thes wrote the summe off the whole doctrine off the gospell . They being therefore both writers off the gospell / in this rule of esteeming Euangelistes by writing / muste needes be a like Euangelistes . For the greeke word fauoureth the one as well as the other : yt being as ioyfull newes / which S. Peter / and Paul wrote / as that which S. Mathew / and Iohn . For the difference off storie and summe , bring not a graine weight to pull the name of Euangelists more to these / then to those . Nowe therefore forsomuch as yt ys manifest by the subscription of S. Pauls epistels / that he writing did the office of an Apostle : it is also cleare / that both S. Mathew / and Iohn being Apostels / in writing the storie off the Gospell did the same : and that the committing off the Gospell to writing / was not the proper difference off any speciall office / but according to th occasions offered / and mouing of the holy spirit off God / commen to other functions off that time . And as the Pastors off our time which both preach / and write / differ not in ministerie from those which preach onely / and are oftentimes more excellent pastors / then they , so the w●sting off Saint Iohn / and Mathew being Apostels / off Saint Lucke / and Marck Euangelistes / might paraduenture make them more excellent Apostels / or Euangelistes / then those which wrote not : but to chaunge their ministerie / it could not . Last off all / off this answer followeth th absurditie before noted / that one man at the same time / should be first / and second / before and behinde himselfe .

That an Euangelist at one time / may be a bishop at an other , maketh litle for the D. considering that we shewe / that Timothe 2. Tim. 4. 5. was euen then at Ephesus an Euangelist / when he supposeth hym to haue bene bishop . Howbeit it is vnlike that they which were ordeined Euangelistes / and set in higher degree aboue the Pastor / were without their fault / thrust downe vnto the order of Bishops . Men nowe a daies peraduenture may chuse to an office off charge / one whom vppon better triall as not altogether sufficient / they may cause to rise out off his chaire / and sit in a lower place : but in the Apostels ordination / especially of Timo. in whom they were directed by the voice off God / it could by no meanes 1. Tim. 1. 18. comme to passe . This being vntrue / in the Euangelists cast down to th office off bishops : ys yet more vntollerable in the Apostels . For they are by this meanes not let / but cast headlong downe / from the highest staier in the ministerie / vnto the lowest almost : yea by the D. saying ( which maketh the Pastor / and the Doctor all one ) euen vnto the lowest . But it can not be / that they which were appointed by the voice off Christe immediatly to the Apostelship / can ether off theyr owne / or any other autoritie in yearth / be put from that ministerie . And therefore our men doo substantially dispute against the Papistes / which would haue Peter bishop of Rome : for that being ordeined an Apostel / he could not betake him vnto th office off a bishop . which the Answ. with diuers other groundes / would to mainteine his phantasies gladly shake .

The reason pretended out off Zuing. for that they abode in one place : yf it be his / is vnsufficient . For to omit that it is easy to shew / that Iames immediatly after he was ordeined to the Apostelship at th ascension off our Sauiour / exercised his charge in one place / namely Ierusalem / during his whole life / whereby should follow that he was neuer any Apostell : and to let passe that Eusebius citeth out off Clement / that all the Apostels remained 5. li. 18. c. by the space off xij . yeares in Ierusalem / after our Sauiour Christes ascension / whereby they all should be bishops during that time : to say nothing also off Saint Paule / which teaching at Rome / and there looking to end his life / euen from thence writeth 28. act. 30 Eph. 1. 1. 2. Tim. 1. 1 him self an Apostle / and not a bishop : I say to let all this passe / which notwithstanding casteth downe this opinion / the Ans. must know that th abiding long in one place / doth not make a bishop differ from an Apostel : but the necessitie / and bond to abide in one place / by reason of his particular function . Which when it nether can be shewed off any Apostel / and is as hath bene shewed / directly contrary to his function : yt can not be / that the abode in one place / should proue a chaunge off the Apostelship / into the function off a bishop .

Whereby is also answered the last reason off the D. that Tim. was bishop , becawse he retourning to Ephesus died there . For yf that were graunted / what reason is there / that whereas by the biscours off the scriptures before alledged / it appeareth Timothe tawght in diuers churches : he should be saide bishop off Ephesus / becawse that was the last church he instructed ? why not off the first / or second as well as off the last ? it is all one as yf a man being a straunger in diuers places / should be saide to be Cytisen of that / were he laieth his bones . Wherein the D. againe approcheth vnto the absurditie off the Papistes : which against that the Protestantes alledge / that Peter is saide off writers / as well bishop off Alexandria / and Antioche / as off Rome / answer that the difference is great / because he died at Rome . Nether helpeth it him any thing which he alledgeth in an other place out of Cal. that Tychicus was sent to supplie Timothies absence . For beside that the Apostle doth pag. 336. not goe so far / and whatsoeuer can be saide in that point is coniecturall : Calu. wordes do not necessarily enforce a deputie / considering that absence may after a sort be supplied / by a successour .

And if beside the first ordination off Timoth. vnto the function off an Euangelist / which is vnlimited / we will consider the manner off his embassage towardes the Ephes. there can nothing les be gathered then this / that Timothe was off Saint Paul instituted bishop off Ephesus / whereby he should need a 1. Tim. 1. ● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 deputy . For in that he sent him / desyring him to tary for him there : he declareth that he was not sent to remaine alwaies / but for a tyme . But if the Answ. take exception that I haue found out this newe translation / to make the place serue for my turne : fyrst I trust that those which haue still in the greek / will easly graunt that the word will bear this sense : then it hath some confirmacion of that / which Saint Paul writeth off diligence to be vsed in his caling there / vntill his comming . Which word vntill although 1. Tim. 4. 13. Sustineres me . 2. l. cont. epist. Par. not alwaies : yet for the most part / maketh an end of that / whereunto it is applied . Last off all / it appeareth by Augustin which vseth this translation / that yt was off auncient tyme receiued : which testimonie off antiquitie cast in / when the skoles are euen on both sides / may cary it away . Thus I leaue it to the Iudgement off the indifferent reader / what truth it hath that the Answ. affirmeth / of Timothes being bishop at Ephesus . I returne back to the generall treatise off the Euangelist .

Where I shew that if there were Euangelistes , yet the bishops could not ordein them ; being their inferiors : he answereth Diuis. 6. pa. 233. Eph. 4. 1● that yt can not be proued , that an Euangelist is of higher degree , than a bishop . Yf O. Paules autoritie be not sufficient / which setting the ministries off the word so precisely in order / preferreth the Euangelist / and Prophet vnto the Pastor / or bishop : nor the Iudgement off writers ( whereoff although some make an Euangelist next in honor vnto an Apostle / some the Prophet : yet both sortes prefer Euseb. 3 : 27. Calu. vp . the Eph. Beza . pa. 226. the Euangelist / and Prophet vnto the Pastor / or bishop ) yf I say none of these be sufficient : yet the D. hym selfe will help vs / which in appointing the giftes off Prophetes / and Euangelistes greater then those of the bishop proueth that he here denieth . And although he take this libertie off denying thinges / which none durst euer call into doubt : yet he escapeth not so / considering that although he make the bishop to take the wall off the Euangelist : yet he can not do yt in the Apostels / and Prophetes . Therefore the absurditie remaineth still / that the bishop being an inferior minister / taketh vpon hym to make ministers / which are aboue him . He saith that the 7. of the Heb. maketh not for me , becawse blessing is not there taken for consecration to the ministery . yet the reason is all one . For as the Apostel proueth that Melchizedech was greater then Abraham / because he was the minister of God / to pronounce the bessing vpon him in the name / and autoritie of the Lord : so he that ordeineth being a publike Minister off God / to pronounce his assistance to wardes him that is to be admitted / owght by the same reason / to be greater then he .

Where I alledged out of Euseb. that the Euangelistes did li. 3. c. 37. ordein bishops , hauing nothing to answer he was content to take the benefit off the printers / or writers fault : which as casely might come to passe / for the figure off 3. had set the figure off 2. where I shew that thes Euangelistes are superfluous , yf the pastors , and Doctors doo their dutie : he asketh what iff there be pag. 34. not for euery church , a sufficient Pastor . Which being answered in an other place / I answer also here / that his Euangelistes should helpe to make vp the nomber . Where he saith if euery church were prouided off an able Pastor , yet for confirmation off the doctrine , oftener preaching , diuers worcking of God by one rather then an other , the Euangelistes might doo good : beside that he easely forgetteth the churches charge / which being hardly able to mainteine their proper ministery / should be ouercharged with those that ride abowt : and beside that the Pastor being prouided vnto euery church / the ouerplus owght to serue to fournish them off Doctors / an other ordinarie mynisterie off the word : he must know that able teachers / can teach as often as the church can conueniently meet . And it can not be denied / but they haue the blessing off God promised to their labours / before any other . Yf there be any such great / and vrgent need off confirmation off any point off doctrine / the churches hard by may by dutie off godly neighbourhood / help one an other in that behalff .

The place to proue the ceassing off this Mynisterie out off Euseb. lib. 5. ca. 9 Eus. is manifest to all that wil vnderstand . For in that speaking of the time about the yeare 162. he saith there were yet Euangelists , he declareth that there were none in his time : and that he saith 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . with repetition / there were there were , all see that he wrote that with declaration off sorow / that they hauing bene before / were not then . That which he answereth / that they can not now goe from kingdome to kingdome , becawse the miraculous gift off tounges is ceased : maketh vtterly against him . For Euseb. putting that amongest other an̄exed to the office off an Euangelist : left the reason off the want off that ministerie / which he had before bewailed . Which being the same now / that was then : yt followeth that as there was not then / so there is not now / any such function . Thus much for the maintenance off the reasons / which were set downe by me against the D. Apostels / Prophetes / &c. it followeth to examin his .

First the reader may see the hardnes off the D. countenance / which hauing diuers reasons alledged out of the scripture / asketh notwithstanding for one word out off it / which doth but insinuate thes Pag. 229. offices to be temporall . After he alledgeth Ephes. 4. where vpon that it is saide / that those with other Ministeries off the word / were giuen off God for the gathering together off the sainctes / vntill we all come vnto a perfect man : he concludeth but vniustly / that they are perpetuall ministeries . For the offices off Apostelship / &c. may well haue their worck in the perfection off the church / without such continuance . Which he might haue easely knowen / if he had considered that which our Sauiour Christ saith / that the fruit off their preaching should remaine . Therfore although 15. Iohn . 16. their ministrie were but for a time : yet for as much as the fruit thereoff hath / and shall haue her worck vnto the worldes end / in the perfection off the church off God : it might be well saide / that they were gyuen for the gathering off the sainctes / vntill they cam to a be perfect man . Nether doo the wordes off the Apostle / import continuance off all these offices . For if all thes amongest them / and euery one in his turne / finish this worck : yt is enough / nothing falleth from the liberalitie off the Lord / nothing from the truth off this word . no more then he breaketh promis / which vndertaking to furnish an other off all manner of worckmen vntill his howse be finished / after foundations layed / and patron left vnto carpenters / and masons / how to proceed in the rest off the building : with draweth the master builder . for as the lorde abated the nomber of sortes of builders : so hathe he deminished the varietie off workes / requisite to the building . And as the offices off Pastor / and Doctor which were not in the beginning off this building / are saide to be gyuen to perfecting off it / euen so thes functions off Apost. &c. although they be not in the end / may likewise be saide . But I merueil that the Answ. doth not vnderstand / that both this place of the Ephes. and that off the Corinthes ● . 12. speak of such Apostels / Prophetes / and Euangelistes / as were noted with such markes off immediate calling / extraordinary giftes / &c. as fall not into the Apostels / Prophetes / &c. which he dreameth off . If therefore he think that the Lord hath bound hym self by those wordes / to continue thes degrees : yt followeth that he is bound to furnish them / with giftes proper to them . For if promising such as S. Paul here meaneth he giue other kindes / much inferior vnto them : he thereby ( which all godly eares detest ) is argued off vntruth .

His other reason is / that Prophetes in the 1. Corint. 14. and Prophecie p. 229. 230 12. Rom. are put as ordinary . Whereunto I answer / that the word Prophecie / is taken sometimes not for that particular function Saint Paul speaketh off / but generally for any publike instruction off the people / in the will off God . As when it is saied extinguish not the spirit , dispise not prophecie . That it ys so taken 1. Thes. 5. 19. to the Rom. yt ys manifest / for that yt ys deuided / and altogether consumed into the ministeries off the word . So that there being no ordinary minister off the word in the church / which it embraceth not : yt must follow that it is taken there / for no particular 1. Tim. 3. Phili. 1. 1. function . Which thing may better appeare / for that in other places where S. Paul deuideth the whole mynistrie of the churche / the ministrie off the word / which he vttered here by the word off Prophecie / he there attributeth not vnto Prophetes / but vnto Bishops . And when as the prophecie which the D. phansieth / is a simple Ministrie off the church : that Prophecie mencioned there being compounded / muste needes be diuers . Likewise that a Prophet to the Corin. is taken generally / for any which instructeth with any word off exhortation / yt is apparant both by that S. Paul attributeth prophecying / to all which haue 1. Cor. 14. 1. 2. 3 4. 5. 6. 23. 24 3● ▪ 39 , any gift off teaching : and in that he doth so often oppose it / to the fruteles speaking in a straunge toung / amongest the assembly of the faithfull .

His testimonies out off writers remaine / wherein amongest the auncient / he hath onely a counterfeit sentence off Ambrose / as I haue before declared : which as yt ys full of confusion / and disorder : so yt maketh nothing for the D. for if Apostels be bishops / and Euangelistes / and Euangelistes be Deacons / &c. what maketh that to proue / that there are beside the bishops / and Deacons / seuerall functions of Apostels / and Euangelistes / which is the question . But how this fable is beaten down by all Tertul de Cor. mil. Athan. in diuersis Epist. Euseb ● . lib. 30. ca. Ieron . ad Euag. Igna . ad Tral . Magnes . &c. Insti , li. 4. c. 3. s . 4. Vpon Ephes. 4. auncient antiquitie / that may be a sufficient argument / that the auncient writers in great consent / speake off the whole ministrie off the church / as deuided into thes three orders / Bishops / Elders / and Deacons . After that other ministries entred / as doorkepers / subdeacons / &c. yet there were none but such lightheaded spirits as I haue before spoken off / that durst peint out any their mynysteries / with the names off Apostels / Euangelistes / and Prophetes .

For the new writers ( that the D. if his forhead be not of yron / may learn to blush ) I will towch their Iudgment onely / which he hath alledged for him self . Maister Caluin diuiding the mynistrie off the word into Apostels / Prophetes / Euangelistes / Pastors / and Doctors : affirmeth that the two last onely , that is to say Pastors / and Doctors are ordinary . Bucer likewise deuiding them into perpetuall , and for a tyme , affyrmeth that these perteine vnto th estate off the former church / and correcteth the D. Ambrose for appliyng them to his times / by the true Ambroses sentence to the contrary / in the fyrst of his Offic. Peter Martyr vsing the same diuision / sheweth that the function off Apost. Vpon 1. Cor. 12. and Prophets / are not in vse : and that the ministrye of Prophets / is not onely expyred in respect of telling thinges to come / but also for the manner off interpreting the scripture . That he speaketh not the same off the Euangelist / was for that the Apostle maketh no mention off him in that place . Musculus deuideth the mynisteries Loci . com . de minist. of off the word , into those which serued for the beginning off the gospell , as Apost. Euang. Proph. : and those which continue for euer , as Pastors , Doctors , Elders , Bishops . Bullinger saith the office off Apostleship / Prophetship / and Euangelistship Dec. 5. ser. 3. / were instituted off the Lord for a tyme : and that thes many ages / euen synce the foundacion off the kingedome off Christ , both Apostels , Euangelistes , and Prophetes are ceassed , into whose place are come bishops , Pastors , Doctors , and Elders . Last off all the confession off the churches / hauing spoken off all mynisteries off the word / mencioned off the Apostel : concludeth / that off all those now it is lawfull to esteeme mynistries off the churche / Bishops / Elders / Pastors / and Doctors . Thes autors affirming that thes mynistries be extraordinary / that they were for a time / that other are come into their places : the reader may see how the D. dealeth with him .

Let yt now be noted / how he hath haled thes sentences taken from them . Out off Maister Caluin he alledgeth / that God hath stirred vp Apostels , or Euangelistes synce the time of the primitiue churche , and hath doone so at this tyme . Within a lyne after he addeth / yet I Instit lib. 4 ca. 3. se 4 call that extraordinary , because in churchs well dressed , it hath no place . Of the like sort yt ys that he alledgeth owt off my booke : whereas vpon Maister Caluin / so of my wordes / which affirme that God hath raised vp sometimes Euangelistes immediatly by his spirit , without any calling off men : he woulde conclude / that the office is ordinary / and perpetuall : then which bouldnes what can be greater ? Out of Bucer he alledgeth / that there be now Euangelists . Where if his maner of speach / that there are found Euangelists , could not / yet that which he addeth / that God doth it by merueilous meanes : ought to haue kept him from that allegacion / except he thinck that a miraculous calling / be perpetuall / and ordinary . Out of the Confess . is brought / that thes offices off Apostles , &c. are mynistries off the new Testament : els should they haue great iniury / seing they were both in tyme / and dignitie first . but who ( the D. set a part ) would euer conclude therof / that they are perpetuall ministeries ? especially considering it addeth immediatly in plaine wordes / that the Apostles are ceased , and Pastors come into their places : which could not be / yf it had any such meaning as the D. phansieth . Where it saith / that there are yet Prophetes : yf that were not which I alledged out of it / towhing the shutting owt of those three ministeries / from them which are now in vse : yet the manner off speaking there are yet found , the same with that of Bucer before alledged / declareth that they ment therby an extraordinary calling . For so we vse to speak of thinges rare / and not in commen vse .

Last off all / where yt is alledged owt off Bullinger / that the wordes mentioned to the Ephe. are confounded : yt doth not make for him / but is answer both against the most places brought to proue Timothe a bishop / and against those which he hath cited / in the 3. and 4. Diuision off this chap. for if those ministries being separate one from an other / their names notwithstanding be confounded : yt muste follow / that not euery one which is called an Apostle / or bishop / &c. hath that function which is by some proprietie seuered from other / and which the Apostle ment to the Eph. for where one man being an Apostle / is sometimes called a Prophet / Bishop / Doctor / Elder / and Deacon : yf he will say that because he is called by thes titles / he did therefore all those functions proper vnto those mynistries : beside th absurdities before shewed / the vntruth doth manifestly appeare / in the office off disposing off the churches money / Whereoff the Apostles discharging 6. Act. 3. 4. 2. Cor. 11. 23. them selues / ceassed not therefore sometime to be called by the same name off Deacons . And to vse those authorities which he hath brought / Ierom calleth I say the Prophet / both Euangelist / and Apostel . Yet I think the D. doth not esteme Ierom to haue had so litle iudgement / as to think that he was ether off them / in that signification they are taken of Saint Paul. likewise Proaem . sup. Esa. Pag. 405. Li. 1. inst. ca. 9. se . 1. vp . 20. Act. 2. offic. alia est enim , &c. cum veritas ipsa limatur , &c. Ephes 4. 11. where he hath cited out off Caluin / that Timothe was a Pastor : when Caluin calleth him also an excellent Doctor , and maketh that a seuerall function from the Pastor / yt is cleare that he spake not off the speciall function off a Pastor . The same may be saide off Beza / which calleth S. Paul a Bishop . with diuers other / wherin writers speaking off one in passing / and not off pourpose : content them selues with those generall titles / which notwithstanding when they inquired into the natures off them ( as we doo here ) spake otherwise / which vse is also noted off Cicero .

And to shut vp this matter / it is to be vnderstanded / that there be diuers significations off thes wordes Apostles / Propheres / Doctors / &c. for in generall signification they agree vnto all ministers off the word . Considering that all are sent / all feed / teach / and by a trope are saide to prophecie . Their other signification which S. Paul setteth forth / is particular / and agreeth onely to onely to one seuerall ministrie . Obserue then how the D. hath trifled / when as a part off our question being / whether there be now Apostels / Prophetes / and Euangelistes in particular signification / and as they differ aswell one from an other / as from Pastors / and Doctors : he hath brought certein places / where thes names be taken generally / and as euery off them may be verified off all mynistries off the word . as yf vpon that the Maior off the citie / is called sometimes the officer / sometimes the Magistrate / he should conclude that he hathe three seuerall offices . And where ( an other part off our question being / whether these functions are now ordinary / or extraordinary / perpetuall or for some ruinous time ) he hath taken vpon him to proue them ordinary / and perpetuall : he hath alledged testimonies / which confessing that some off thes ministeries haue bene found in our daies / ad partly in expres wordes / partly in wordes / and circumstances of like valew / that they were extraordinary / that they are but for a time : then which what can be greater mockery off his reader ? And so I trust yt appeareth / aswell vpon the argumentes Ephes. 4. 11. I haue vsed / as vpon the shame off the D. answers : that off all the mynisteries of the word / reckened of S Paul / there remaine onely Doctor / and Pastor : and that the function off Apostles / Prophetes / and Euangelistes / haue no place in the church / onles the lord immediatly styr them vp / withowt the ordinary calling by men .

Off the necessarie residence of the Pastor 4. Tractat. 5. according to the D. Cap. 1. Diuis. 1. pag. 235.

THe D. to deliuer the Non residents / from the crime he ys charged with / flieth from the iudgement off the word off God / vnto his owne conscience : so that yf he / and his conscience although astonished / or blindled / can agree off some easier way than is debated / all mouthes are shut vp to speake against him . And pa. 238. he saith that preaching , and priuate exhortations , must be according to the conscience , and discretion off the Pastor : which is too shamefull a saying . In stead wheroff if he had put a good conscience ( which will admit no persuasion but out off the word off God ) : he had openly begged that in question . The lord knew too well the vnreformed corners / and false doores of the best consciences / to commit his church which he loued so dearly vnto their 1. Cor. 4. 3. 4. courteousie . When Saint Paul confesseth that he was not as towching his ministrie iustified / albeit his conscience cast him not in the teeth / of any thing he had doon : he declareth that the conscience is no sufficent rule / to direct the minister in his charge ▪ Yet his was more Chryst allike / then is to be hoped after off any now . and when he saith / that all the worckes off a good minister / are 2. Tim. 3 ▪ 16. taught out off the scripture inspired off God : he incloseth the Pastor within streighter boundes / then the Answ. which leaueth him in the large field / or wildernes rather sometime off his conscience / sometime of the peoples pleasure . That which he bringeth off the examples off the Apostels / and Euangelistes / is absurd : considering that both the callinges are diuers : and euen in the very point whereoff the question is towching the place / yt is confessed of him / that the Pastor hath one certein appointed him to exercise his charge / which the other haue not . Off this sorte Diuis. 12. pag. 244. is that he alledgeth after off sonas the Prophet : whose mynistery was altogether extraordinary towardes the Nineuites . Whiche yf yt proue any thinge : yt proueth that the pastor / after he hathe once laide open the synnes off his flocke / and denounced the iudgement against them / may goe his waies withowt ether deputy / or returne . Likewise that off S. Paul Act 20. free from the Ephes. bloud , becawse he had declared them the whole counsail off God . Which is first impertinent : considering that the pastors teaching at his Diuis. 13 : Pa 244. charge / is not to be compared with the Apostels teaching at one church / but at all the churches of his Apostelship . Then yt ys apparantly againste him : considering that the Apostle which cleareth him selfe off their bloude / doth nowithstanding all the knowledge they had / charge the pastors with watche / and warde ouer them / as those which should answer for them . So that onles S. Paules diligence had bene poursued in feeding them / which were alredy so well fed / not the people onely / but the pastors also / should haue perished .

And euen the extraordinary callinges / are so far from strenghthening thes startinges a side from appointed charges : that they help to binde them more streitly to them ▪ for they had not onely a generall calling to execute their function : but withall speciall direction vnto the persons / and places vnto which the Lord would haue their ministrie to apperteine . for when those off Nazareth thought muche / that our Sau. Christ healed in other cyties Luk. 4. 23. &c. off Galile / and not in theirs / where he was brought vp : he alledgeth the calling off God / which sent him to doo miracles in other places / rather then there : and sheweth the cawse why Elias rather relieued the extreme famin / and Elizeus cured the leprosie of straungers / then of their owne countrey : for that they were sent vnto them . Also desired to tary in a place / he saide it was not Luk. 4. 43 at his libertie to tary / but that he muste preach to other cyties . alledging this reason / that he was sent off his father so to doo . Considering therefore that they had not onely generall callinges to doo their duties / but also where / and to whom : muche more in the callinges which are ordinary / and certein it owght to be obserued / that men haue not onely callinges to preach / but direction vnto the place / and parties to whom they should preach . Which because yt is not now / without calling of the church : yt followeth there can be none such . That he addeth / if he haue care off them , is altogether from the cawse : considering that the pastors care / is but one part of his duty : and may be taken off one neuer present . Likewise that of his sufficient deputy ( beside that yt cometh after to be spoken of ) if the absence he phansieth be vnlawfull : the deputy for yt ys idly mentioned .

I alledged that the Euangelistes , and Apostles taried more in one place then in an other . Which may be easely vnderstanded / not onely in that S Paul / preached somewhere yeares / other where moneths / in some places weeks / in other not all but in that by certein vocation S. Peter / &c. were more bound to Gal. 2. the places where the Iewes / then where the Gentils were : and Saint Paul / and Barnabas had in their generall charge / a more streight bond to preach vnto the Gentils / then to the Iewes . And albeit the Euangelistes he imagineth / are let so lose that they may preach through the realm : yet euen in that scope he leueth them / they haue a neerer knot / and further dutie off preaching in places of their natiuitie / abode of freinds / and kinsfolk . Therfore if the residence off a Pastor / be no more then the D. plainly setteth downe / that he ought to doo it especially in that place , and more in that then pag. 242. in others : the difference betwene a Pastor / and them / towching the bond to a place / graunted also off the Answ. is cleane taken away . Burhe will not answer the former reason / because it cometh owt off place . Where forsomuch as preaching in other places / is alledged to be one off the cheif cawses off non residence : all men see that this arrow was shot at the heart off his cause . And yf yt had no place here : why did not he cary yt to the proper place ? how cometh it to passe / that he answereth yt not els where ? But how vaine this excuse is / it appeareth : seing euen in this diuision / to proue that the Pastors may preach in other places / then in their charges / which is that he refuseth to speake off / as impertinent : he alledgeth the example of the Apostels / and Euangelists / and so continueth almost a whole side off repetitions .

Likewise to that alledged / that Timothe , and Tite , cam not from Ephesus and Crete off their owne heades , but called off the Apostle a cheiff gouernour off the church , which can be no warrant to those which leue their charges without any such calling : he answereth not . That which is saide off the D. that S : Paul sent for Timothe for his owne priuate busines : is vntrue / nether hath any grownd off the word . And if he thinck that those wordes help him / that Timothe should bring Marck as one profitable to serue him : they rather confute him . for yt is absurd to imagin / 2. Tim. 4. 11. that S. Paul would take twoo such notable lightes from the seruice off the church / to serue his priuate busines / and to doo that which m●ght be doon by others / which had no publike charge in the church : especially considering that he had Luke with him before . Therfore that seruice must be expounded / of the seruice off the gospell / whereunto he would employ them .

Whereas I alledged for residence / against those which leauing their proper charges wander in other places / that they Diuis . 2. Pag. 237. should not attempt any thing in the ministerie , without calling : the Ans. saith / a man is not so called to one place , that he is restrained from doing good in other : which is not the question . For it is not denied but he may doo good by praier / counseill / and writing After be saith / that he constantly belieueth that in the moe places he laboureth , the more his seruice is accepted vnto God : and p. 241. that he is a member , and minister off the whole church generally : and pag. 224. wheresoeuer the preacher may doo most good , thyther he is called of God . Wherein beside the miracle off making Apostles / he bringeth in other wonders which the Lord him selff neuer wrought : which is / to chaunge a Pastor into an Apostle . And beside that it is directly against the Act. 20. 17. Philip. 1. 1 Socrat. li. 5. ca. 8. pag. 224. order off the scripture / which calleth them bishops off such / and such a particular church / and not off the whole church : against the Canons off the ould Councels / which forbad the bishops to goe beyond their owne boundes / and assigneth that cause off appointing Patriarchs : yt is against that him self hath set downe / where putting difference betwene pastors / bishops / and other preachers / he saith / that Pastors , and bishops haue their cures limited Whereuppon foloweth that if they goe to other places / they both passe their limits / and destroy the difference assigned off the Answ. between them / and other licenced preachers .

Yea if he be minister off the whole church / he hath a necessary calling to preach in as many places / as he can possibly : as he which otherwise shal be gilty off their bloud / ouer whom hauing a mynistry / he hath doone no duty . But forasmuch as the Pastor hath his calling vnto one certein place onely / yt must needes be that he goyng to other churches off his owne head / goeth withowt calling . Onles he will here / flie vnto secret persuasions off the spirit off God / without the voice off the church : which is mere Anabaptisticall . And where he saith / that God calleth him to that place where he may doo moste good : first he doth presumpteously / that taketh vpon him to determin where he may doo moste good / and that which controlment off the churches iudgement / which placing hym in a certein church / thereby gyueth her sentence / that he might doo moste good there .

Then I answer / that although he could know where he might doo most good : yet that is no sufficient calling off God . For the lord calleth sometime his ministers vnto places / where they gaine least / and sendeth none to those where after preaching would folow repentance / as appeareth by that our Sauiour Christ speaketh off Corazim / and Bethsaida / compared with Tyre / and Sydon Math. 11. 20. Ezec. 3. 6. / off Capernaum compared with Sodom : and by that the Lord saith to Ezechiel / off the Iewes compared with the Gentils . And our Sau. Christ which knew where he might do moste good / and best fill his hand off the Lordes corne / folowing the calling off God his father / euen in the land off Iury where his charge was / preached more in certein stoncharted townes / then in those which were better affectioned to his doctrine . Which may appeare both by Ierusalem / and the examples before recited / and especially in Capernaum . In which for that he preached so often / and wrought so many miracles / yt is in an other place called his owne cyty . Now if our Sau. Christ preached no where but by the calling off God his father / and yet few in places more 9. Math. 1 aboundantly / where he knew he should haue a thinner haruest : yt foloweth that yt ys both vntrue which the Answ. saith / that God calleth a man to preach / where he may doo most good : and true / that the lawfull voyce of the church ( being the same to the Mynisters now / which the holy spirit off God was in those extraordinary callinges ) owght to goe before euery one in his mynistry / not onely for direction off hym to preach / but also for the place where . Whereuppon foloweth / that he which being placed in one church / leapeth into an other / without an other calling off the church / runneth or euer he be sent . So that althowgh the Pastor had neuer so harty a desyre to profyt , in his wandring from place to place : yet hauing no calling / there is no obedience : and therefore if in casting his net into an other mannes fishing / he should enclose neuer so great a multitude : yet with owt pardon / he shall one day heare / that to obey is better than sacrifice ▪ and to harken better then the fat of rammes ▪ Where he addeth that God 1. Sam. 15. 22. enclineth not so to one church , that he would haue the other neglected : I graunt / and further that euery one ought to take care off all the churches / but according to the boundes off that calling / wherein he is set off God . And beside that I haue shewed / that the loue off God towards men is no certein rule / to direct the minister in his function / but his calling : the Answ. by this reason / must take shipping ouer to Rome / and Constantinople / and to whatsoeuer place he shall vnderstand to haue need off his help .

Yow doo as yow say dally , not with mine / but with the holy Diuis. 3. pag. 237. Gostes metaphors off pastor / and watcheman . And fyrst where yow would so assigne the resemblance betwene these / and a Pastor off the church in other thinges / that yow would not haue pag. 220. yt come to the diligence / and continuance in feeding : yow are manifestly confuted by the words off the scripture . for in the person of Peter / yt requiring off all ministers off the word / that they should feed , feed , feed , according to the charge committed vnto Iohn . 21. 15. &c. them : sheweth that the similitude reacheth to the diligent continuance . Which may better appeare / in that as the gouernment of the Pastor towardes his church / is set owt in the picture off a shepherd : so is the spirituall gouernment of our Sauiour Christ / shadowed forth in the same similitude . and life as our spirituall Psal. 23. Iohn 10. feeding is off Christ : so the principall meanes which he vseth to feed vs by / is the Pastor . Whereuppon yt followeth / that if it be needfull for vs at all times / to haue our spiritual feeding of Christ : yt is needfull also to haue alwaies / that hand which the Lord especially hath appointed to giue it by . Likewise noting a good minister by watch day and night / without cease / yt is cleare that Esa. ●2 6. the resemblance reacheth vnto the continuance vpon their charge . Whereunto perteineth / that the scripture compareth the spirituall watch ouer the churches / with the watch which shepherdes kept in those countreis / which for the multitude off wolues / and other hurtfull beastes / watched day and night . For thereby Luk 28. Gen. 31. 40. is implied a greater attendance / then if the comparison had been drawne off the fashion off our countreis . Which although it be expresly set downe in my 49. pag. yet the Ans. will not vnderstand ●t : but saith he knoweth not wherefore the 2. of S. Luke should be quoted .

To conclude it is to be obserued / that albeit he grateth the cares off his reader / by so often repetition off thes syly differences : yet he will not once acknowledge the strenght off the argument : which is not as he imagineth off like , but off the lesse to the more . For if there owght to be such diligence / and continuance off watch for thinges off so small valew : how much greater owght yt to be for those / which are bowght with the precious bloud off the sonne of God . If for those which haue sometimes truce with their ennemy : much more for those which haue restles war. If against the hazard off this life onely : much more against the daunger off euerlasting death . Therefore to let the vntruth off some differences which he raketh vp / vnworthy off confutation / rest in the iudgement off the reader : yf they were all true / the argument remaineth still vnanswered . For albeit the absence / and substitution which the D. imagineth / be allowed in the wordly watch : yet it followeth not that the same is to be allowed off / in the spirituall .

Nether helpeth yt which he alledgeth / and that in an other pa. 221. & 244. place / owt off Chrysostome : that the sheep are here reasonable , which are there vnreasonable . Wherein first cometh to be obserued / how all is fish with the Answ. that cometh to net . To briue the church from the election off her minister / he alledged owt off Chrysostome / that the people is nothing but a tumultuous stir , compacted of folie . Here where he would make more elbowroume for the Pastor / they are reasonable sheep / such as can feed themselues / such as can pag. 215. prouide for them selues . Thus he is content for aduantage / both him self to play on both handes : and to drawe his Doctor to the same . But yf this reason be oftentimes in the reasonable sheep pag. 221. more ennemy then freind vnto the spirituall feeding ; if the setld : sheep haue naturally more appetite to desire / tast to discern / and Rom. 8. 7 Math. 16. 17. meanes to enioy their conuenient feeding / then thes reasonable haue for theirs : then this sentence off Chrysostome helpeth not . And yt may peraduenture seem to smell off the smoke of free will / and off the naturall power of man : whereoff he is often too lowd a preacher .

Likewise that which he bringeth / off the difference off the temporall meat soone digested , and off the spirituall which continueth for euer , 221. 556. 244. so oft repeted : and of that no man can take the sheep off God owt of his hand , is ashamefull abuse off the holy scripture . For to let pa● how many waies this feeding is through the malice off the deuill / Math. 13. 4. &c. and corruption off mennes natures / ether clean taken away / or turned to the hurt off the hearers : likewise not to stand in that the Pastor knoweth not what time the Lord calleth effectually / and gyueth that meat that neuer consumeth / to those which are vnder his charge / which ought to kepe him in a continuall exercise off his function / and wayting for that howre when the Lord will towch their heartes : I say not to stand vpon thes / the D. should haue knowne / that as the Lord declareth / that none can take them owt off his hand : so he hath disposed off the meanes / whereby he will hould them / which is the ministry off his word . And as he sheweth the vertue of the word / in the heartes of those which are effectually called / to be perpetuall : so he ordeineth y● should haue that perpetuite / by that meanes off preaching / whereby it first took root : In watering that which is planted / feeding ● . Cor. 3. 7. first with milk / then with whole meat / them which are once conceyued by the immortall seed of the word preached / vntill such time as they come to their perfect growght / and stature off the ● . Pet. 1. 23 & 2. 2. Ephes. 4. ●5 . full age off Christ . Ad hereunto / that thes places applied vnto the vse the D. putteth them / serue to proue that preaching off the word / is needles amongest those which haue belieued / and aswell that the pastor may be away without any deputy / as with one . For if the residence off the Pastor may be lesse / because the sheep off God can not fall from their calling / and because the spirituall food which they haue once tasted of / endureth to life : the same comming to passe withowt any further instruction / yt followeth by the D. reason / that they may be without all ministry off the word . And iff this may diminish the continuall residence off the Pastor / yt may aswell abate the diligence off the hearers : so that after they feel them selues to haue belieued / they need not seek so carefully / the food off the word off God . But as sentence giuen by God that S. Paul should appeare at Rome / and not perish Act. 23. 11 Act. 27. 23 &c. & 27. 31. with his company in the sea / it being vnpossible that he should perish / or any off his company / he truly saied / that they could not be saued / onles the mariners did abide in the the ship : euen so it impossible to take Gods sheep owt of his hand / is truly saied notwithstanding / that yt is impossible for them to be saued / withowt continuance off feeding by the word off God . For as that was the ordinary meanes / to deliuer from ship wrack : so this from spirituall destruction .

In the next diuision that which he answereth of a Pastor acepted of God , though he be not so wise as Salomon , &c. is from the pourpose . pa. 23● . if he would haue answered / he shoulde haue saide / that a man hauing both his handes full / and more then he can ouercome / off the charge committed vnto him : may voluntarily / and off his owne head / reach owt his hand for more . The mildnes off Christ hindreth not his iustice / not onely against the vnfaithfull seruant / which hideth his talent in a napkin : but against the foolish / which hauing enough to doo at home / maketh him self worck abroad . The cauill of baptisme is vtterly vnworthy of answer : considering that I expound my self in the next wordes . The example off celebrating baptisme but once or twise in the year , is fondly / and without iudgement alledged : seing that it was very inconuenient / and not to be followed . Preaching at the discretion off the Pastor , is confuted : that other may mynister sacramentes , then mynisters off the word , is a begging off that in controuersie / and after disputed .

To that that I propounded of the necessary / and continuall abode / to the end that the preaching thorough knowledge off th estate pag. 139. off the people / might haue the better effect : he answereth / that the Apostles althowgh they did not long continue in a place , yet preuailed muche . as yf the Pastors now had the discretion off spirits / which the Apostels / or were armed as they / with power off working miracles / and distribution off giftes / whereby their preaching was made so fruitfull : or as yf there were not more particular knowledge required in a Pastor toward his flock / then in an Apostle towards his charge . Considering that an Apostle might execute his Apostelship / towards those whom he neuer saw / or was present with : which I thinck he will not say off a 2. Colos. ● pag. 241. Pastor . Where he saith / yt is not so hard a matter to know the peoples conditions : all wise men see the contrary : yea the experience of men deceiued in the natures off their frendes / wiues / and children / best knowen vnto them / might haue taught him otherwise . And yf he were so righthanded in this matter / as he pretendeth : yet considering the estate off his people chaungeth / in the whole / or in the particulars : yt is meet for the knowledge of their estate / he should waite vpon the alterations .

He saith also / that admonition being giuen them in due time , and order , their bloud shall be vpon their owne pates : and in other place / that if the the city be sufficiently admonished , leauing some behinde him , the watchman hath doon his duty , and may goe to another place . Wherin first ( as his wont pag. 244. is ) he taketh that for graunted / which is the question . For yt is in question what is sufficient admonition / and what is to admonish in time / and order : whether as long as he continueth Pastor of that churche / which wee maintein : or vntill he shall esteem his church lightened with the knowledge off the truth / which the D. supposeth . Then the similitude of the watcheman / confuteth his imaginary sufficiency . For as where the war is durable / there yt ys not enough for the watcheman to haue discried the ennemies once / or twise / onles he doo yt as oft as they come against the city : euen so yt can be no discharge vnto the spirituall watcheman / to haue giuen warning / onles he doo yt during the whole time off the spirituall war : which being continuall / and withowt truce / requireth his continuall watch . And this being alledged pa 244. off me afterward / ys altogither vnanswered .

Moreouer there is herein / difference between the spirituall / and bodely watch / that there yt ys enough of one daunger to haue gyuen one waarning : but in the spirituall / the alarme bell must be rung oftentimes / for one / and the same daunger / yea and Philip 3. 1. 2. 2. Pet. ● , 12. that in thinges well knowen . Againe although in bodely watch / the watchman after he hath gyuen warning may goe to his rest : yet it is not so with the spirituall watchman . For he is bound not onely to admonish them of the comming of the en̄emies / but to fortify / and confort them : they must as the preists in the battailes of the Israelites / blow continually the syluer trumpet / not onely that they should euery one take him self to his armour : but that in the fight through that passioned / and stirring musicke off trumpettes / they might blow vp / and whet the courage off the souldiers . And herein he is greatly abused / that in this whole disputacion / and precisely here / he imagineth the duty off the Pastor / to be onely in instructing the sinner / and giuing to vnderstand what he must doo : when as the Lord teacheth / that this watch consisteth aswell in admonishing the righteous / and those that haue liued Ezec. 3. 18 19. 20. long in all commendation off good worckes / as the sinner which neuer was lifted vp / owt off the myre off his wickednes . Likewise that the Pastors agreement with the fieldshepherd / is not onely in leading them to the pastures / and setting meat before Ezec. 34. 4. 2. Pet. 1. 12 them / whereby they may be kept from staruing : but in healing the sicke / bringing home the straies / strengthening the weake : whereunto if wee ad that off S. Peter / which teacheth that he owght to strengthen the strong : I would gladly know off the Answ. what time there is / wherein one off these duties is not in season to be doon off the Pastor .

Further this answer cleaueth not together . For if the Pastor haue discharged his duty after his supposed warning , that their blowd shall light vpon their owne pates : what need he leaue a deputy behinde him ? He dare not answer that the deputy is but off pure grace off the Pastor / and if he leaue hym to instruct off necessitie : how hath he discharged his duty / that in necessary substitution off an other in his place / he still confesseth him self bownd vnto ? And those other duties off conforting the sad / binding vp the broken / &c. be aswell commaunded vnto the Pastor / as the bringing them to the knowledge of the truth : and be also more proper / considering that his gouernement is properly off those / which haue some entrance into the church . by what rule is it lawfull more / to turne ouer vnto his deputy / thes other offices off ministry : then that which him selff esteemeth hym bound to / in his owne person ? Yf he may set ouer his second / and third instructions / and admonitions / &c. why may be not the first ? So it may come to passe ( which he deniing in wordes / doth in deed confirme ) that a Pastor pag. 243. may doo all by deputy .

That he alledgeth off God directing the preacher in his wordes , and matter : tendeth to Anabaptisme . For aswell may it be alledged to proue / that the Pastor may preach without study : as withowt knowledge of the estate of his people / as a meanes to direct both his wordes / and matter / to the most profit of his hearers . Where he saith / a discrete preacher will so temper his matter , as he may profit all , and hurt none . Yf he had tould vs how / and off what droges tha● receipt is made / which is fit at all times / in all places : I should better haue knowen what to haue answered . In the mean season / he is cleane beside the question : which is not whether a man may profit / in preaching to the people / whose estate he knoweth not : but whether he profiteth more / that knoweth yt . He that casteth blindefold / may hit the mark : but no wise man will lay any thing on his head . The reasons I brought to proue / that the want off knowing the estate / may ether hinder the fruit / or gyue occasion off that daunger / which by knowing it might be auoided : are for the moste part vntowched .

Heere his memory serueth him not / for any place owt of the Diui. s 6. pa. 240. 1. Reg. 6. 1. Chron. 28. 11. 12. 13. 19. 1. Sam. 19. 12. 1. Cor. 9. 13. law , which proueth continuall residence off the Pastor . I will let passe the howses built rownd abowt / and ioyning to the temple / which being doon off Salomon ( as was the rest off the building ) according to the word of God / might declare how neer their charges the lord will haue the Ministers off the church . Likewise I will not presse the example which is alledged / off Ely sitting at the dore of the Tabernable / to espy the manners / and answer the doubtes off those which entred . I will content my selff with the Apostel / the best expounder off the law : who setting forth the Priestes function / by that part off it which consisted in sacrifices : vseth a word off great strenght / to binde them to a continuall residence / and signifieth in effect / a continuall sitting at their 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . charge . Now considering that the Pastors diligence is the same in his church / that theirs was in their charge : continuall presence being required off them / the same / or greater rather if greater can be / is required off the pastor : as he which hath greater trust / committed vnto him .

That which is spoken off diuers beside the Pastor , able to dissolue doubtes which arise : not to meddle with the truth thereof / nor to stay in the great giftes required in one / that should comfort him that is cast downe / whom the scripture affirmeth to be so care / that a man shall skarce finde one amongest a thowsand : I answer Iob. 33. 23 that it helpeth not / not onely becawse they hanging of their Pastor / know not to whom to haue recourse : but also considering that the dissoluing off the doubt / or comfort according to the necessity off the person / dependeth not off knowledge onely / but vppon the blessing which the Lord giueth . that being therefore greater / and more aboundant / when yt is doon by the instrument which the Lord hath sanctified for that pourpose : yt followeth / that if there were such supplies as he speaketh of : yet the Pastors presence is necessary . And therefore yt helpeth him not / which he pag. 244. alledgeth afterward owt off the Coloss. that they should admonish one an other in psalmes , &c. but maketh against him / considering that if particular persons / haue a duty off admonishing those that are fallen : the Pastor hath much more . And if the lord will not spare the meanes off the admonition off a priuate man / for restoring off hym that is fallen : he will much lesse spare the mynistery off the Pastor .

That which he often repeteth of help by reading off the scriptures , is not to the pourpose . For if the help of the Pastor be not requisite / when the sheep are particularly stricken off the Lord : there ys no necessary vse off hym at all . And where the Lorde hath prouided resistance agaynst tentation / not onely by reading / but also and that especially / by the lyuely voice off the Mynister : what is els to betray the sheep vnto the woulf / yf this be not / to leaue them destitute off the moste principall meanes off their defense ? beside that / the place off Tymothe 2. 3. is abused / whilest he draweth those thinges to priuate men / which the Apostle speaketh off the Mynister off the word : whom he calleth the man off God , as the manner of the scripture is to call the Prophetes / in which respect Saint Paul so calleth Timothe in an other place . Nether dothe it belong vnto priuate persones 1. Tim. 6 : 11. to teach / and to confute false doctrine : which the Apostle sheweth to be a part off those good workes / which scripture storeth that man off God with . To the next diuision he answereth nothing / but yet filleth vp the place / as is there to be seen . Diuis. 8. pag. 241. 1. Tim. 4. 12. Io. 10. 4.

To that out off the Apostle / and our Sauiour Christ / off the Pastors presence , that in going before his flock , he might serue for a patron off good woockes : he answereth that our Sauiour Christ / and Sainct Paul serue for examples , to those which neuer saw them , and with whom they were not continually . Albeit the light off their example shining so cleare / might be seen off those which were far of : yet the same followeth not in the pastors / whose light is a great deal dim̄er . Likewise the pastor being notas our S. Christ / and S. Paul lightes off the world / but off those howses ouer which they are set : ought to be placed where they may giue most light vnto them . Considering that it is vnmeet / not onely to put the light vnder a bushell / where it is altogether vnprofitable : but also vnder the table / where notwithstanding it may giue some comfortable remedy / against the darcknes . Therefore forsomuch as the example that may be both seen / and heard / hath more force to conforme the followers vnto yt / then that which is onely heard : the reason remaineth still vnanswered . seing the question is not onely / how he may serue for example / but how he may doo yt to their moste aduantage .

To that of the restreint of Pastors to their proper flockes , 1 Pet. 5. 2. Act 20 28. he answereth / he wrote not to Pastors onely , but to all in generall , that haue the name off Elders . his reason therof that Peter saith he was also an elder , is senseles / and hath no manner of tast . I will not stick to confesse / that S. Peter wrote in those wordes to other Elders then the Pastors : yet that he wrote to them onely / that weretied to particular congregacions ( which mainteineth the reply ) yt ys manifest by the wordes alledged owt of S. Peter . Wherein yf I haue brought the right sense / he owght to haue rested : els to haue confuted thereasons / wherewith that translation is warranted / and the other which he setteth downe / remoued ; and not thus confusedly to make a mashe of all . And it auaileth him not / to seek corners in the diuers interpretation off the place : when as that off the Actes doth in plaine / and confessed speach / vtter the same that is here debated off .

After he addeth howsoeuer the place be expounded , yet it maketh not against him . No if S. Peter / and Paul crye neuer so highe / in this language of continuall residence : yet the D. is deaf / and will not heare . Yf both the Apostles doo not only commaund the Pastors to feed in their proper flockes : not onely that they must employ their talentes / but where : yt ys manifest that they shut owt / that rouing abroad vnto other churches / which is pretended for Non residence . I shewed how the argument is good / taken from the place off the Thessal . that for so much as S. Paul conceiued a great greif / in being absent a small space from those / to whom 1. Thess , 2. 17. he was not so streitly bound / as the Pastor to his flock : the Pastor owght muche more to be greiued / to be away from his flock . And consequently thereoff must follow / that if their absence sat so neer their hartes / as yt owght : yt would hang such plummets off their heales / as should hinder them from those lightfooted leapes / which he mainteineth . I added also / that the Pastor hauing the same dutie vnto his proper church , which the Apostles had towardes all the churches of their charge : yt must follow , that as they were continually in their ministery towardes some off those churches : so the Pastor should be continuall vppon the charge off his church . That he bringeth against this / that the Apostle did not speake this in any duty off mynistery : for that a learned man noteth off that place , how the sainctes desire to see one an other bodely , is ridiculous : as if his desire to see them / could not stand with the duty off the his mynistery .

In the two next diuis . vnto the reasons alledged / off the pag. 242. 243. Pastors care so much more stirred vp , as he seeth the blessing of God vpon his labour : and of familiar acquaintance needfull in a Pastor towardes his flock , to embolden them to come vnto him , both which are best procured by continuall residence : he answereth nothing . where I alledged / the singular loue by this meanes wrought betwene the Pastor , and the flock : he asketh me how I know it / seing I had neuer experience in any ? I know yt of the cawses off loue / whereoff the daily conuersation / and delight to be together / is one off the principall . off naturall reason which I cyted owt off Aristotle / that teacheth how men haue greater care / ouer thinges proper vnto them / then ouer those that are commen to them with moe . And hauing greater care / yt followweth they haue greater loue / from whence the care proceedeth . Likewise I know yt by experience in the Apostle S. Paul : which vttereth greater affections off loue towardes the Corinth . and Philip. and other with whom heremaineed longest / and suffred moste for : then towardes the other churches / where he made not that abode / nor tooke so great paines .

He asketh what Aristotle had to doo with non residence ? if yt had bene but Balams asse / he should haue bene schoolemaster fit enough for some / which refuse to be taught by the word off God . But this is one off M. D. oracled / which he saith owght to be belieued ? considering that speaking off the naturall causes off preseruation of thinges / for which I alledged him / he spake of thinges perteining to his profession . That he chargeth me with not reporting Aristot . wordes truly / is a wrangling cauill : for I kept the sense off the autor / considering that a thing commen to many / requireth the care off many . That he saith / it can not be true that it is neglected off all , which is cared for off all , is to childish : considering the flower off speach so often vsed off all writers / both prophane / and holy : as they liuing are dead / hauing nothing possesse all thinges / he that is euery where / is no where . Nether is care taken in lesse measure then yt owght to be ( which I speake off ) contrary to neglect , as he supposeth : but a kinde off neglect . That he addeth a man owght not so take care off hit priuate thinges , as to neglect the commen wealth , is from the pourpose : seing the pastor in his charge ouer his flock / serueth not him self / but the commen profit / and that off the whole church . forasmuch as it perteineth to the commoditie off the whole body / that the part which he hath the nourishement off / be well preserued : beside that I haue shewed / how the care for other churches / may be with a continuall residence at his owne .

In the next diui. skowring ouer againe the remouing of Apostles / and Euangelistes from place to place ( which is answered ) Pag. 243. 〈◊〉 he addeth that the Pastors did the same , which is vtterly vntrue : that a man may be transferred from one place to an other , which is no part of the question : that those which haue gyuen their names to the gospell , are sufficiently armed with faith , although the Pastor be not present , which is absurd / when the armour off faith / with the rest off the complete harnesse off o Christian / which he speaketh off in the next diuis . is not so put vpon / but that it is daily to be put on / and that by the preaching off the gospell especially , He saith further that although they be tempted , yet they can not be ouercome : which is confuted not ●nely by diuers examples of moste excellent sainctes / Noe / Dauid / Peter / &c. but by whole churches off Galatia / &c. which haue bene caried away by false teachers . For if he speake off the finall victory / yt is absurd : consydering that that dependeth off the election off God / vnknowen vnto him / and may be aswell saied off the elect which haue not yet belieued . Likewise that it is a more acceptable worck , to gaine those which are altogether in ignorance : wherein beside that he taketh vppon him to be a planter off churches / Pag ▪ ●●● . which before he assigned to be proper to the Apostles : I answer that albeit it be neuer so good a worck in yt self / yet it is not good / much lesse the best / vnto him which hath no calling therunto . And in that he presumeth a calling / he doth but beg that in controuersy / which is also before refuted . That he alledgeth off the loste groat ▪ Prodigall sonne , &c. maketh against him : considering that those places are not off straungers from the church / but off them which after knowledge off the truth / fall into some corruption of life / or doctrine / as appeareth in the parable of the stray sheep / Lu. 15. 14. &c. which although it be of the same kinde with thother two / he hath by all likelihood left owt / because it did more plainely shew his folie . In this respect also S. Iames saieth / that a man that gaineth his brother straied from the truth / s●ueth a sowle . He saieth 5. Iam. 19 : 20. his brother / not his neighbowr . Therefore this moste excellent worck off conuerting sinners / and finding off those which are lost / being alwaies in the purest churches / through the ambicion / couetousnes / idlenes / licentiousnes / &c. off one / or other : it followeth / that the pastor hauing exercise of the moste excellent worck which can be / in his owne church / owght not by the D. owne reason / cast him self vppon others . All in the two next diuis . is answered : nether conteine they any answer / proper vnto the reasons alledged off me .

He answereth that the similitude off the eie , and sowle in the body , Diuis. 14. 15. Pag. 245 : 246. compared with the Pastor in his church , agreing in some pointes , can not be applied to the residence : becawse the Pastor may be absent from his flock withowt present destruction , which the eie , and sowle can not . Yf this be a sufficient exception / there be few similitudes in the scripture / which are able to hould owt : and he might aswell say / that as the eye waxeth worse / and worse through age / so the Pastor may w●r euery day more foole then other . Howbeit this is clear / that forsomuche as the Pastor doth the office off an eye / and off the sowle Mat. 6. 22 vnto his church : his absence from it ought to be such / as the body off the church may nether see the worse / nor be les disposed / and liuely vnto all good worckes : which is enowgh to break the neck / both off his monethly / much more quarterly sermons / and off his reading deputies .

Hetherto perteineth which the D. intitleth / the moste effectuall Theleuenth Tract. Pag. 554. &c. kinde off preaching : where he would if he durst / expound diligent preaching / preaching once a moneth : to which end he stowreth vp a freshe / the difference betwene spirituall food / and corporall / before answered . But because he dare not take vpon him this defense / and the rest of the treatise hath nothing but a childishe excuse / off his reproches against the Ministers of London , an impudent deniall off his Lewdenes towardes the weomen , an intollerable bragg off his benefites / and off his preaching often , owt courses against me / all beside the cawse : I will leaue them in the readers iudgement .

In the next Tract. off the great conuenience off preaching before administration off the Sacramentes / falling also into this pag. 562. treatise ( as that which pulleth at the least one of those feathers / wherewith non residentes so willingly take their flight from their owne charges ) there should haue bene almoste as title to answere / as in the other : if the D. had not vsed such open false accusations / as he may thereby seem to haue striuen for the mastrie thereoff / with the father off them . And first to let pas his correction off th order off my reasoning / whereby he maketh him selff more then ridiculous / to all which haue a graine off knowledge that waies : to that he saith / that Iohn as minister preached in the wildernes , and baptised in Iordan , and therupon will conclude / that if preaaching before the Sacramentes now haue grownd in Iohnes example , preaching in the wildernes , and baptizing in riuers haue the same : I answer that the case is nothing like . For his preaching in the wildernes / was by speciall vocation / wherunto he was directed by an expresse propheceye . This instance therefore is vnfitly alledged / which Es. 40. 7. albeit it were incident to his ministerie : yet that was by extraordinary calling . The baptizing in Iordan / was for that he sought the commoditie off water / as appeareth by other places / where Iohn . 3 23 he likewise baptized not as the D. pretendeth / for that his mynisterie called him more to that place / then vnto an other .

Yt is also vntrue / that the Apostles in that they were ministers of the word , preached in all places , and wrought miracles . For then all ministers pa. 563. off the word / should doo the same . Considering that as whatsoeuer agreeth vnto one man / as he is man / agreeth vnto all / euen so whatsoeuer agreeth vnto one minister off the word / as he is minister theroff / must needes be verified off all . The reason wheroff is more knowen / then that the D. withowt blusshing / owght thus to be ignorant off : that whatsoeuer is verefyed off a generall , as generall , is verefyed off all vnderneth yt . Therefore that the Apostels preached the word / they did it in that they were ministers off the word : but that they preached in all places / and ioyned therewith miracles / they did it not as ministers off the word / but as such ministers / that is to say / extraordinary / and Apostles . Where he saithe / there is an other reason off preaching before Iohns baptisme , then before ours , for that Iohn had to doo with those that belieued not in Christ , whhich he calleth a litle after infidels , and we haue to baptise infantes onely : to passe by his ignorance off calling the Iewes at that time infidels ( the onely people off God / euen before Iohns baptisme ) which notwithstanding deserueth the whip : he owght to vnderstand / that albeit the baptisme be administred vnto infantes / which haue no vse off preaching yet forsomuch as the knowledge off that mynistery / necessarily perteineth to the whole assembly / and particularly to those which vndertake the bringing vp off the infantes ▪ the necessitie off preaching before the Sacrament / doth remaine .

He saith / that it can not be gathered off S. Math. that S. Iohn preached immediatly before he baptized and yet the first reason I alledged / Diuis. 2. pag. 563. 19. ca. 4. 5 that he baptized after he had preached , he cleane passeth by : the other off the Actes / he vnderstandeth not how it can be gathered . Although the interpretation I noted was not commenly knowen / as that which towched off some fewe / was not seen of diuers writers off name : yet when I pointed him to it / I supposed he would haue vnderstanded . But I presumed the ●●che off his vnderstanding / and yet not knowing what I would note / he condemneth the sense I haue followed / as tending to Anabaptistry or Papistrie , or I know not what . S. Paul meaning to refer the giftes off the holy ghost / which the twelue disciples at Ephesus / were to receiue by putting on off handes / vnto the performance 1. Act. 5. off the truth off the promise figured by baptisme / and so to ioyne the signe with the thing signified : in the fourth verse sheweth how Iohn preached , that his disciples should belieue in Iesus Christ which came after him . After in the 9. vers. he sheweth Act. 19. that those disciples off Iohn , and not ( as is commenly supposed ) those twelue disciples off Ephesus / hauing heard Iohns preaching , and not ( as is also supposed ) Paules / were baptized into 4. vers 5. vers . the name off the lord Iesus . Which interpretation as yt floweth / and hath plaine proofe off the twoo coniunctions / which haue relation one to an other / and can not without violence be seuered : so off all other yt moste stoppeth the mouth off the Anabaptistes , and Papistes , taking all coulor off Argument from them : and withall noteth the order I alledged yt for / that after they had heard Iohn preach , they were baptized .

Where it being most boldly affirmed off the D. that it is manifest Diuis. 3 pag. 505 that our Sauiour Christ was baptized without preaching , he owght to haue shewed yt by manifest reasons : he not onely set downe no reason / but agaynst the reasons I alledged / opposeth his naked saying . For that that S. Luke hath not , that S. Iohn preached immediatly before he baptized , is vnworthy off answer : as if the order off the storie could not shew that / withowt the word immediatly : or as if nothing might be saide doon immediatly after an other / but where some such precise note off time is added . That he saith / he knoweth no pourpose why our Sauiour Christ should be at Iohns sermon : yt was answered / that he vouchesafing to be baptized off Iohn / yt was probable / that he would honour the ministery off the word with his presence : which he passeth with silence , beside that he must learne / that our Sauiour Christ growing in wisdome / Luk. 2. 52. and stature vntill the time off his baptisme / when he receiued the holy ghost withowt measure : no more neglected the ordinary meanes off God / whereby he receiued his increase off wisdome / then the ordinary nourishement whereby he grew in stature .

That the disciples were preached vnto of the vse of the supper / Diuis. 4 : before they receiued / the reason followeth in the 6. diuis . That S. Luke noted the sommes / rather then laied owt at large / the sermons of our Sa. Christ : howsoeuer the D. will not acknowledge yt / is more manifest then his impudent deniall / owght to cawse me enter into profe off . To the next reason / of continuall practise Diuis. 5. of preaching immediatly before the Sacramentes / proued owt of S. Luke / his answer is insufficient . For beside that it is vntrue / that the assemblie infantes excepted / are sufficiently instructed off the vse off baptisme : his answer off preaching immediatly before the sacramentes , to those that are not conuerted , hath no place / considering that S. Paul preached to those in the administration off Act. 20. 7 the supper / which were already conuerted .

Where I confesse that nether the Adm. nor I hould for a Diuis. 6. 566. thing simply necessary / that the word be preached immediatly before the Sacramentes : he saith that there is then no cause to contend , yt being agreed off the conuenience . Yf it be very conuenient that preaching be immediatly before the Sacramentes : then the coustome off reading onely / is not sufficient : which is that he found fault with in the Adm. for at the least a great conuenience is wanting to that sufficiency . And seing the scripture commendeth thinges conuenient / as it forbiddeth the contrary : the order of preaching immediatly before the Sacramentes / euen in this respect / owght ( onles yt be rare / and vppon great causes ) to be obserued . Where I say the life off the sacramentes dependeth vppon the the word preached : the D. saith yt is a fowle error . no meruaile according to his black diuinitie . But how cometh it so fowle ? because the life off the Sacramentes dependeth vpon the promisses in the word . I graunt / and nether vpon preaching , nor reading . that is vtterly false . for when baptisme belongeth not vnto infantes / but in that their ancesters in the conuenant / and those no otherwise in conuenant / then by faith which cometh are preaching : yt followeth / Rom. 4. 12. & 10. 14. that the parentes hauing no Fruict off the couenant but by preaching by / can much les haue profit off the Sacrament without it I graunt their infantes saluation / dependeth vpon the election off God : yet that they may be partakers off baptisme / dependeth on that the promise preached was receiued ( at least in the churches iudgement ) off those off whom they are descended . Thus the doctrine fowle in the D. iudgment / is beautifull in the scriptures .

Let vs now se whether yt be so vncourteously handled off others as off the D. Caluin shewing that the Sacrament Instit. lib. 4. c. 14. 4. standeth of the word / and element / saith we muste vnderstande the worde , notwispered , withowt vnderstanding , and faith , with a noise onely , as if yt had power like an enchantement , to consecrate the Element : but which being preached Har. in 3. ●arg . causeth vs to vnderstand , what the visible signe meaneth . Likewise vppon these wordes ( Preaching the baptisme of repentance ) the word sacrament doth not signifye a vaine Ceremonie , which standeth of shewes withowt doctrine , but the word off God is alwaies annexed : which gyueth life vnto the outward Ceremonie . I vnderstand the worde not mumbled betwene the teeth , but pronounced with a cleare voice , fit to edifie the faith ▪ for yt is not saide simply that Iohn baptized to repentance , as though the grace of God were shut vp in the visible signe : but that he preached the vertue of baptisme , that the signe might haue effect , by the word he preached . Here is not onely the same iudgment / but almost the same wordes : that the life of the sacrament dependeth vpon the word / and that preached . In his dispute after / as though I had saide that the sacramentes are dead / vnles the word be preached immediatly before / he declareth that be is gyuen to speake all vntruth / be yt neuer so apparant . For it is directly against that I set downe / in the same place / he rayseth this false accusation : where I confessing that there is no precise necessitie off preaching immediatly before the sacramentes / affirme notwitstanding / that preaching owght to Diuis 7. pag. 567. goe before them .

In that he bringeth owt off Zuing. against the Anabaptistes / the first place is altogether against him . For although the disciples baptized withowt teaching : yet it being saide there that our Sauiour Christ tawght , yt is euident that preaching went before the sacrament . The other place is to fill vp roume . For we say not that young infantes must be tawght before they be baptized : but that doctrine must goe before the sacramentes in the church of God / as the publishing off the graunt before the seale . Where he would conclude that I vnderstood the necessitie off preaching before the Pag. 568. administration , not in respect off the rest off the church present , but off the infantes , for that the life off the sacrament perteineth not vnto others then those which be pareakers : Who hath so blinded hym that he vnderstandeth not / that baptisme receiued off the standers by in their infancie / taketh effect daily by preaching after they be off age : and that withowt preaching in those which be off discretion / yt remaineth vnfruitfull / and seruing onely to condemnation . Yea euen the baptisme off the infantes / not onely perteineth vnto the parentes for whose comfort yt is also ministred : but dependeth as I haue shewed off this / that they off whom they come / haue through preaching off the word before that baptisme / gyuen their names vnto Christ . Thus hauing obteined that yt is very conuenient / that there should be preaching immediatly before the administration off Sacramentes : I returne back with one band more / to hold the Pastor from rouing beyond the tether off his church . Other thinges impertinent vnto this place shal be answered in their places .

His triumphes vpon that I confesse / that the Pastor may Diuis . 14. & 15. pag. 245. &c. for some busines with leaue off his church , with an able deputy be absent : notwithstanding he would so faine mount them on highe by his questions / are beggerly / and doo scarce crepe vpon the ground . For where he asketh first / whether he may not aswell be away for publicke affaires , as for priuate : he may if they be of that sort / which agree with his vocation . But what then ? will he conclude of an ynch an ell / off a week a moneth / off a moneth half a yeare : and off a case off necessitie / make an ordinary licence ? when S. Paul will haue him which entreth into this warfare off ministry / to vnwrap him self off all occasions which may drawe him from 2. Tim. 2. 4. yt : being already entred / he will much lesse suffer that he should ether seek new occasions off absence / or take all that are offered . Our Sauiour Christ not suffring those whom he called to this worke / to goe bury their dead / and giue the farewell vnto Luk. 9. 60 61. 62. those off their howse : declared sufficiently that they owght to be very vrgent cawses / which should drawe the mynister off the word / from the charge committed vnto him . And when his loue towardes God / must be moten by feeding off his flocke committed vnto his charge : his long / and often voluntary absence / must Iohn 21. needes proue a small loue in him towardes the Lord . Which reason being alledged / is altogether vnanswered . This rare absence / and that vppon vrgent cawse / may appeare a so by the practise of the church . The Councell off Mens / decreing that the Bishop vpon sickenes or some other vrgent cause off absence not able 2. Tom. Cal. 25. to preach , should haue some euery sonday , and other festdayes to preach in his steed : declareth that the vse off the church / did nether suffer the bishop to be away but vpon great cawse : and that not so much as one holy day / withowt a preaching minister to supply his place . Augustine saieth / that he was not absent from the church of Hippo , but compelled by sickenes . Zuinglius putting Epist. 138 difference betweene an Apostel / and Pastor / saieth that he that doth the office off a Pastor , is alwaies in the power of Ecclesias . the church ouer which he is set , and neuer goeth from it . Vppon which both testimonies off the scripture / and practise off the church yt appeareth / how to haue a deputy owght not to be ( as the D. would haue it ) an accoustomed thing : but rare / and vpon vrgent causes .

Where before he alledgeth for profe off a deputy / that there Pag. 221. is no shepherd which hath not a boy , or a man to supply his absence : he owght to vnderstand / that our Sauiour Christ is that master shephherd / and therefore he being but a seruant / can no more set ones his charge / then one seruant discharge him self vppon an other . Beside / what sheepmaister is there of so smal housbandry / which will be content that his stipend should be mangled / and a portion giuen vnto an hyreling / for a monethly / or quarterly ouersight off his flocke / suffer the shepherd to enioy the rest ? yt may well be for the poursprofit off the shepherd : but it can not be but to the great scare off the sheep . considering that not onely the hyred can not by any likelyhood / haue that care ouer the flocke which the proper pastor hath : but also that all this disputacion tendeth hether / that they may haue a reading / or other in sufficient substitute : which as the shepherdes boy / or rather eurr / content with a locke / or twoo / will leaue Maister Person the maister shepherd / the rest off the fleese . For such is their fidelity / that where as in times past the preistes are commaunded to beare the arck vpon Nom. 7. ● their owne shoulders / so they should feed their flockes them selues : they are not onely content to shift yt from their owne shoulders / but as the foolish / and idle preistes in committing yt to 2. Sam. ● . 6. such vnstilfull gouernours / they lay yt vpon a cart / hale yt with oxen / not with the aduenture / but with certeine euent of an ouerthrow . Although herein I speak too fauorably off the greatest nombre off them : which doo not bestowe so muche coste as a new cart / and a draft off oxen come to . For they haue learned their howsebandry rather off him which teacheth / that alwaies it standeth Plin. l. 18. natur hist a man in least , which may be doon by a poore asse . And if this carting off the church of God / were sent home to our popish Philisthins from whence yt came : the kitchen fyre being thereby 1. Sam. 6. 8. well abbated / this disputation for adeputy / would be well cooled . For an able man would either for conscience / or honesties sake / kepe him selfe from this hyrelingship . I say conscience / because amongest other corruptions / he can not auoide the crime off Simony ( as they call yt ) whylest to obteine a place / he is content to part stakes with the Pastor . Honesty / whylest all not seruill minded / will rather choose to be free / then vnder the yoke off an other 1. Cor. 7. 24. mannes seruice .

His second question / whether the flocke be not in like daunger in the Pastors absence with leaue , as withowt : is altogether from the pourpose / when it is no lawfull for him nether with leaue / nor without leaue / to be away with daunger off his flocke . His third / where I finde in scripture that the Pastor owght to haue leaue off his parish : is answered in that I shewed that the Pastors are belonging to their churches / and are their seruantes : which he altogether passeth by . His laste asketh how he can in his absence haue an able deputy , seing he may not be admitted to the ministery , which hath not a certeine flocke . As though in suche necessitie for so small a time / the supply may not be made by the Pastors hard by : which is also answer to that he obiecteth pag. 249.

Vnto the next diuis . I answer not . Vpon that many parishes Chap. 2. Diuis. 2. pag. 247. of Pluralities of Benifices . may be ioined in one , and fix townes in Fraunce ( as he saith ) are committed vnto one Pastor , he concludeth that one Pastor may haue diuers flockes : which is vnworthy any answer . As if a thowsand sheep in one pasture / were not easelier / and with more commoditie tended / then three in three sheepgates . For as towching the preaching off the word / and administring the Sacramentes / vnto diuers townes assembled into one bodie vff a church : the labour is almoste all one in ten / and ten hundred . The residue off the charge being commen with him vnto the rest off the elders / may be ( especially in such necessities ) borne owt by increasing their numbre / according to the compas off the churches territorie . Yt is also vntrue that he affirmeth I haue saide / that the numbre , or distance off place is all one . And yt is inconuenient / that ether a greater numbre be assembled into the bodie off one particular church / then can be at once tawght off one mouth / or that the numbre should be taken owt off townes / farther remoued from the places off the churches resort / then that they may haue conuenient accesse . Likewise yt is vntrue which he saith off six townes to one Pastor in Fraunce . For although one church be assembled owt off diuers townes : yet it falleth owt that the least part off those townes perteineth vnto the church : and those fewe meet together in one place / to receiue the nourriture prouided for them off the Lord / by the hand off their Pastor .

To that alledged / that the Pastor if he will haue many flockes , should content him selff with that stipend off them all , Diuis. 3. 4 5. pag. 247. 248. &c. which he hath off one , when that one is able to mainteine him , and his familie honestly : he answereth not . yet was it necessary to be answered / considering that therby the peinting of that Zeale / vnder pretence whereoff they spred their nettes ouer so many churches / is washed away . Where he accuseth me whotly / other of deceiuing , or being deceiued , in that the Councell off Nice , is put withowt the addition off Second . wherby yt might be seuered from the purer Councell off Nice : I can not precisely say / whether the leauing owt off Second / were my fault / or the fault off some other . but that I meant to deceiue none / there be which can witnes : by that that in the second edition ( howsoeuer yt was omitted ) I gaue a note wherby that should be corrected . His reason wherwith he would proue / that I ment to abuse the reader , for that I set it before Damasus , is to friuolous : considering that that conterfeict Damasus / mentioned in the first Tome off councels / was not before this second Councell : and yt is not vnwonted to put the iudgement off a councell before that off a particular person . As for the corruption off the Councell , I haue shewed how that maketh more against the D. pa. 223. then if the testimonie had been fetched from the first Councell . And where he saith / the Councell ment that one should not haue permitted vnto him moe great cyties then one : yt is a shameles corruption off the minde off the Councell . Considering that the drift theroff is / that one should not haue more to liue one / then is needfull to mainteine him self competently : and therfore is content as it were to wincke at those / which are placed in poore churches not able to mainteine their Pastor : albeit it inclineth rather to this / that he Propter homin● inopiam indulgeatur . should supply that which is wanting / by some honest occupation .

That he addeth that Gratian him self doth so expound it : all men vnderstand how vnsauourly yt is spoken . As yf it were any meruaile that Gratian so expounded yt / which is knowen to be an open corrupter off the Councels / and manifestly in this point off hauing many benefices / not onely in this councell / but in that off Calcedon . For where the Councell decreed that no man might be ordeined in two cyties : he doth impudently dally with it / saying he may be notwithstanding Archebishop of one cytie , and bishop Can. 2 , Clericum . of an other : prouided that he enioy the one as intituled to yt , and the other by way off commendation . Which is but a toy to mock an ape . As if a man should say / that yt were not lawfull to haue two wiues at ones / but yet he might haue two weomen / one vnder the title off a wife / an other of a lem̄end . This interpretation off the Councell / is yet made worse by the D. for he addeth that a Pastor may not be ordeined in moe great cities then one : as thoug the Councell would permit one to be ouer diuers small cyties . The proofe browght by the Councell / that 1. Cor. 7. 20. euery one owght to tary in that vocation wherin he is called , is fit . The reason against yt / that the Apostle speaketh off the kinde off vocation , and not off the place , is fonde : as thowgh yt were not a mannes calling / to doo that he hath to doo / in one certein place : or as thowgh yf the soldier / or embassadour commaunded to serue in one place / serue in an other / he offended not against this rule off the Apostle . Where fault is found / that I set downe councels in the plurall numbre , alledging but one : he dealeth very streightly which will not suffer me to speake as other doo . but that there may be councels / let him learne that the same was decreed in the councell off Toledo . Wherunto I ioyne Maister Hopers iudgement / Caus. 10. can . 3. Vpon the com̄aun . Thow shalt not steale . which saith that no man off what giftes soeuer may haue two liuinges . and therfore he is not so much a shepherd which hath many flockes / as the D. saith / as a theef : seing not able to doo the office of a Pastor towardes them / he pilleth them .

Towching Damasus / that his pourpose was nothing les then to condemne idle bishops / him selfe idlest off all : shal be seen in an other place / when yt shall appeare that he had no good meaning in thes wordes . Notwithstanding the comparison ( which likeneth the Pastors that put ouer their charge , vnto harlots that gyue their children to other to nourse , that they may sooner gyue them selues to lust ) being apt / I tooke as a good stone set in an euill place . In the next diu . the first part / that it is better pag. 149. that one should haue diuers flockes / then any be vntawght / is answered : in that yt is both better that one church be sufficiently fed / then all insufficiently : and it is alledged before / and after / how the want off preachers is in part becawse they are not sought after / in part because they are driuen owt / which were placed . In the 2. diuis . off this cha. Diuis . 7. ●ag. 250. The other part is also answered .

All the Answer . witnesses / browght in to proue that Denis the Monkish pope fyrst deuided parishes , and Dioceses , are suspected . Polidore whom he hath chosen to speake in the name off the rest / doth ( as the D. hym selfe hath doon ) falsifie the wordes off the Monke . Considering that he saith not that he appointed dioceses / but parishes / and churche yardes onely / making no mention off dioceses . Wherupon the Canonistes them selues say / that boundes 80 distin. gl●s . cau. 13. quest. 1 ca. 1. vpon the wordes of Denis . off bishoprickes were deuided long before . Both which opinions shall appeare more at large to be false / where I shall shewe God willing / by what practises the bishoppes stretched owt their armes so far . Afterward the man in going abowt to shew mine / proclaimeth his owne ignorance . For where he saith ther was no limitation off place in the Apostles tyme , he is greatly deceyned . For beside that there is almoste in euery story before the Apostles / often mention off prouinces / wherinto the gouernementes were deuided : Cicero maketh mention off the diuision off prouinces Li. 13 Epist. sam . into dioceses . The Romans likewise before the Apostles had their Curias / the same with the greeke word wherof our word ( parish ) is taken . Also towching the very word parish , by Euseb. 5. 17. that Eusebius reciteth owt off Apolonius / a Senator off Rome / who liued about the yeare off our Lord 180. of Montanus which could not be receiued , not so much as of his owne parish whence he was : yt appeareth that it was both in vse / and in the same signification that we take yt / long before Denis ( off whom the D. would father this diuision off Parishes ) was bishop . So yt is manifest thes diuisions were before the Monkes tyme / yea before the Apostles time .

And where he saith / all men may know that limitation off Parishes , and dioceses could not be made but off men in authoritie , and theruppon concludeth / that it could not be made by the Apostles : yt is very true towching the precise limitacion . but how is he so blinded that he can not also therby see / that yt is an idle dreame that he so greatly stryueth for / that Denis limited dioceses , parishes , & c ? considering that the Denis he supposeth / lyuing about An. 266. had no authoritie / but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours . And if the Emperours had been Christian then / as they were heathen : yet how cometh yt to passe / he doth not vnderstand / that in going about to make men belieue / that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses / parishes / &c. in the church off God : he setteth vpp a Pope / and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after . Finally if this Monke were off any credite / he is directly against him euen in this cawse . For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare / that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish : wherin he should keepe him selfe : which is against the pluralitie off benefices / that he so greatly striueth for .

He asketh where it appeareth , that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations , and parishes ? I answer that off that the scripture Act. 14. 23 Tit. 15. 1. Cor. 41. 40. Psal. 122. 3 willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation / and particular bodie off church / and also that thes assemblies ( as all other thinges in the church ) should be with the greatest conuenience / so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together / euen so the church as much as may be conueniently / should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie / but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other : yt is apparant / that although the scriture doth not mention parishes / nor precisely define off the compasse / yet yt giueth the rule / wherby they are squared owt . For when a parish well bounded / is nothing els but a nomber of those families / which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort : and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged / as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection : yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort / gyuen the churches tarriers / and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning / hath testimonie owt off the word off God .

Where he asketh proofe off this / that dioces is taken for a parish : yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church / bishops in steed Euseb. 6. li 9. 10 20 21. that they are now off such a dioces / were then of a parish . afterward when they began to hooke into their possession / moe churches then they were able to feed : they were called bishoppes off dioceses ▪ yet the name parish was not quite worne owt / but indifferently vsed for a dioces : as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran / where one translation hauing dioces , thother hath parish . Ca 18. And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract. that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas : that diuers parishes in England / may appear to be off greater circuit then they .

That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb. wat in the field , may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church : which I haue noted in an other place . That the churches of Christ had nether then / nor in the time that the D. imagineth / any churchyardes / ys manifest : considering that then the temples ( wherunto the churchyardes were annexed ) were possessed off idolaters . The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes / that by that reason churches , and other thinges must necessarily be remoued : is a begging off that in question / and otherwise insufficient . For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient : and if it had been / yet being not necessary / it owght for such abuses to be taken away . And beside the incommodities assigned / it was as may appeare / taken of the Papistes / from the superstition off the heathen . For Lycurgus Plut. in vit. Lycur . made this law / that men should burye in cyties , and round about the temples . Now residence being necessary / and that principally for preaching off the word / it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop : off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined / must depend / in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord / and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt 1. Tim. 3 : 10. 1. Cor. 9. 16. Chap. 3. Tract. 6. pag. 255. of Gods course / is from heauen throwen vpon him . Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach / shall be heere in a word or two dispatched .

First the D. charged with false dealing / in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth : answereth their meaning is plaine . belike he hath it by reuelation / for in their wordes there is not a title sounding that waies . But he saith yt was their owne case , which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will . Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof / I answer that he towcheth not the matter . For both they speake / and my reply was of those / which ordeined to preach the gospell / are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence : as if a man charged to doo a thing / should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym / and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him . Wherunto he answeretth not a word . Thirdly he laieth to my charge / that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will : a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book . then which what greater dotage can there be ? as yf there could be default off answer / whera there was no such thing obiected .

In that I saied / withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth : he excepteth that there is an equiuocation , yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made . Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise / what we think in that behalf / and owt of place to speake off it heere : his exception is too childish . For to whomsoeuer th election doth appertein / this case remaineth the same . whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word / and yet to keepe it still in his power / whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith / I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge , and onely in yt . Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention : yet howsoeuer yt be taken / this case remaineth one . Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense / that he whom he sendeth prisoner to his church / is ether heritik , or schismatick , or suspected , for that he owght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery : he vseth open falsehood . For he saith I suppose that hypocrites , schismatikes &c. may be knowen forthwith : or suspected may be by and by remoued . Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites / and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth / that the church can not procede against Hypocrites , that is those whose sinnes are not discouered : and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self . Then where I shewe / that those which are to be admitted to the ministery / owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy / or schisme : the D. answereth as if I had saied / that those which haue already bene in the ministery / were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed . Which what seely Sophistery it is / and whether this whole diuis . declare the D. spoiled off all both conscience / and iudgement : I leaue yt to be considered off all men .

The 5. Tract. and 6. vn the O. Off preaching Mynisters .

HEere may be iustly renewed the complaint of the prophet / Eze. 44. 8 that the preists did not onely them selues not execute their charge / according to the lawes giuen in that behalf : but gaue those also entrance / to whom the lord had vtterly denied it . For yt is not enough for the D. to feed hym selff / and others with the bloud off the church / in defense off the vnlawfull absence off the Pastor : onles by this maintenance off vnpreaching ministers / as yt were by banner spred / he make a feast theroff vnto all the rauening / and Cormorant foules in the land . And so as if it were a small thing / to beare the condemnation off his owne parishes : he stretcheth owt his hand / to haue part in the gilt off others . And although this defense may seem to be gyuen to thes wofull readers : yet if we gyue a litle heed / we shall easely perceiue / that both this puddle / and others which depend vpon it / returne to fill if it were possible / the Ocean sea off non residents . For non residence would bring litle ether to filling off cofres / or bathing off them in the delightes off the world / or to what other thing soeuer they in their absence propound : vnles there were such hungry knightes / as would for a crust of bread / supply this absence . Now for remouing off thes sweepinges owt off the church ministery / we must come backe to a diuis . towching this matter .

Where yt is saied that the people need not pine away for lacke off foode , seing they haue one to reade , &c : yt is but a begging off that pag. 153. in question . for is this the diet which God hath appointed to his children / or portion he hath commaunded his faithfull seruantes to gyue vnto his family in due season / or that delicate table / and Math. 24. 45. Math. 13 : 52. cup that runneth ouer ? are thes the housholders which before they set vp / or take the charge off housekeping / haue filled all the ir garners / furnished all their cellars / frawght all their threasuries with all store newe and oulde / fitte to enterteine the sonnes / and dawghters off the great kinge off heauen ? we is vnto that hows holde that hathe such a stewarde / and wo shall be vnto that stewarde that vppon suche prouision / vndertaketh the stewardshippe off the howse off God . But wo and wo againe shall be to him / that not onely him selfe famisheth the how sholde which he hathe / but teacheth others to doo so : and not onely doth euill / but iustifieth the euill doer . A. great parte off the D. alowance here / cometh to be examined after : as that bare reading is not able without Gods extraordinary worke / to deliuer one sowle / and that homilies are not seruiceable in this solemne bancket .

Now to runne throwgh the reste / I answer prayers , and Sacramentes forasmuche as they take effecte by the preachinge off the worde / where that is not / those doo not onely not feede / but are ordinarily to further condemnation . That whiche the Curates can gyue before they haue learned their Cathechisme ( of wiche tyme is here spoken ) is poison and no meate : so that hetherto they maie pyne / for any thinge that the Answ. setteth before them / in suche sorte especially as he settethe yt . All the hope therfore off delyueringe them from famyn / hangeth vppon the well disposed preacher , whiche if he feede another flocke withe the hinderance off his owne / or hauinge no flocke goe abowte in circuite whether so euer he thincketh good : I will not dente but the one and the other maie haue a good meaninge therin / but whether the lorde alowe off it ( onles he be able to shew the seale off some extraordinary calling ) I leaue yt to be considered / of that which hathe bene before disputed . I omit that I know my selfe / that within seuen myles of Cambridge / there haue bene parishes where one off thes sermons was not / in fowre whole yeares . Which if y● be so neere Cambridge / where the greatest number off those preachers be : what is to be thowghte off other places off the Realme ?

Onles yow counte euery reproche / and raylinge worde an argumente / here is no worde to proue , that yt is meete to enioyne mynisters to learne Cathechismes : that is to saye / to proue that they maie be ministers off the worde / before they haue learned the Christian A. B. C. which children off seeen yaere olde in reformed churches / can answer vnto . They are necessarie poinctes wh● he are tawghte there . So ys the A. B. C. to him whiche will learne to reade . they are the weightieste thinges in our Religion . Els they coulde not be the foundations whiche vphold the whole buildinge . To haue saide somethinge yow shoulde haue saide / they are the hardeste / and difficulteste poinctes off religion , but that yow can not / those beinge without the circuite off a Cathechisme . I am contente therfore yow shall praise the booke withe what wordes yow will : but when yow haue doon / looke that yow leaue yt a Catechisme / that is to saie a treatise of the firste elementes / or A. B. C. off Christianitie . And then yt followeth / that yowr enioyninge off yowr mynisters to learne it : doth necessarily presuppose ignorance off those thinges / the wante off knowledge wheroff in that age / not onely owghte to remoue them from the colledge off mynisters : but leaueth them no place till they be better instructed / to syt amongest the Christians . And if yow thinke this no discredite at all , yow haue yowr credite seperate from the credite off the churche : whiche is discredited / dishonored / yea vtterly destroied by suche blinde eyes . And I maie further saie / that he whiche thinketh this no discredite , maie be feared to seeke credite in the ignorance off the mynisters : whilest amongeste such a blinde companie / his sighte maie be somewhat / and whilest he maie vse their simplicitie / to the establishmente off that tyranny / which a learned mynistrie woulde neuer beare .

But because the Ans. can saie nothinge / let vs heare what the Heluetian confession ( fully repeted againe 253. and yet againe 484. mentioned also the fowrth time ) saithe for them . wee condemne all vnmeete mynisters , not indued with gyftes necessarye for a shepherd , that shoulde feede his flocke . What doo I heare ? doo yow condemne all / & c ? hearken Maister D. heere is sentence off condemnation gyuen off those / whiche yow defende . Was there no easier worde to vse but condemninge ? yf they had onely saide they approued them not / speakinge owte off the worde off God / as they doo yt had bene a shrewde blowe . But in sayinge flatt'y that they condemne them : they haue saide what they coulde / for the vtter sweepinge them owte of the church / as longe as yt standeth . And take this also with yow / that in condemninge them / they condemne the making / and defence of them Thus our ignorante ministers haue once passed the condemnation off the churches and in this condemnation they lie / and shall lie as longe as the worde off God remaineth / if all men in the worlde woulde absolue them . But let vs heare whether they be repriued by the iudgemente of these churches / or whether they giue any pardon / which gaue the condemnation .

There followeth that they allowe better off the harmeles symplicitie off some , then off the exquisite learning off others , ioyned withe pride . And worthily . For nether can pride agree withe manners off the minister off God : and harmles symplicitie maie well agree / with a competent learninge meete for that function . In the ende they conclude / that they reiecte not the good symplicitie of certein , so they be not altogether vnskilful off God , and his worde . Firste this can make nothinge for excuse off our mynisters . For when they are to learne their Catechisme / and the principles off Christian Religion / what knowledge is left vnto them off God / and off his worde ? Then yt is like / that by harmles symplicitie they meane some rare / and singular holines / wherby they goo as farre beyond the other in life / as they come behinde them in learninge : whiche all see to be otherwise in our ignorante ministers / oftentimes the maisters off misrule to all the parishe . Otherwise they knewe what Ierome saithe / Ad Oceanum . that in that S. Paule requireth that a bishop shoulde be wise , he barreth those which vnder the name off symplicitie , excuse the folie off mynisters .

Laste off all by that skill off God / and off his worde / they muste needes vnderstande suche giftes / as are necessarie for a shepherd to feede his flocke : whiche is habilitie to teache / to exhorte / to conuince the aduersarie : and if he haue those / althoughe he haue not the knowledge off tounges / and artes / in the name off God let him haue the chaire . And suche I confesse our churche hathe had / and hathe some / but they are very rare : and off thes I doubte not but the confession meaneth . Nether can they be withowte manifeste iniurie / thowghte to receiue those whiche they had before condemned . for shall wee saie off them that with one mouthe / yea with one breathe they blewe whout / and kolde ? wheruppon I conclude / that the condemnation beinge heere greater then the pardon / and the wound wider then the plaister : yow were verie neere driuen / when yow were compelled to vse the testimonie off thes churches / to couer the nakednes off the ignorante mynisters ▪ your notable slaunder off the Adm. I am contente shall ( as yow saie ) reste in the readers iudgmente . That I haue gathered yowr argumente faithfully / towchinge the learninge off Catechismes / is shewed before . There foloweth the 2. diuis . ( the first being a blank ) where beside the causes by him assigned pa. 2●2 . of want off able Ministers / be to no pourpose / considering that we shewe there can be no cause off instituting a reading ministery / and be also owt off place / considering that he shoulde haue opposed them / to those which I alledged in that behalf : that pa. 484. which onely was materiall / that we be in cause off that fewnes , is onely saied .

Where I alledged owt off S. Paul / that yt is an expresse commaundement that a pastor should be able to teach , and Diuis. 3. 253. 1 , Tim. 3. 2 Tit. 1. 9. conuince gaynsayers , and therfore to be broken vpon no occasion : he answereth that S. Paul sheweth the qualities off a pastor , but saieth not that we may not haue reading Pastors , if there be none , or not a sufficient nombre in whom all those qualities concur . Then which what can be more bluntly saied ? For this being a generall rule / he owght to haue shewed where the Lord gyueth leaue to take vnteaching mynisters / contrary vnto the tenor off this commaundement : which he is neuer able to doo . For the scripture commaunding the pastors should be able to teach / and conuince doth forthwith shutowt all other : it being a generall rule / that it both commaundeth the contrary off that it forbiddeth : and forbiddeth the contrary off that yt commaundeth . And there is no commaundement in the scripture / which may not be eluded by the D. answer . For thus yt may be sayed / that we may haue images in churches to teach the ignorant : for that although the lord forbid them / yet he hath not saied that where there are none / or not a sufficient numbre off able teachers / we may not haue such supplies . Those also which pressed with extreame hunger seeke remedy in stealing / finde him their proctor . For the lord hath not saied in so many wordes / that one which is hungerbitten / may not steale as much as will saue his life . But when all commaundementes be generall in the scripture / albeit they haue not alwaies the vniuersall note off All / or None : onles there be some exception declared / this off the sufficiency off the pastor / being not onely vniuersall / but vniuersally propounded / is better armed against all thes fond cauils . For our sauiour declaring that euery one instructed Mat 13. 52 as a scribe vnto the kingdome off God / owght to be prouided aforehand with store off doctrine / and iudgement to apply yt according to the present occasion : doth gyue manifestly to vnderstand / that no one may be receiued into the order off pastors / which is not able to teach his flocke .

And the D. may as well say / that in default of sober / chast / and quiet pastors / they may chuse dronckards / whoremongers / swashbucklers : as that in default off a teaching pastor / they may take vnteaching . Yea rather may he say the one then the other / considering that sobriety / chastitie / and quietnes are commen with him to all Christians : but abilitie to teach / and confute are his proper duties . Therfore although thes be both vntollerable / yet the church receiueth les harme / by pastors which infected with 〈◊〉 doo teach : then by them which free from thes / are vtterly vnable to teach . For the good life off the pastor withowt doctrine / wherby they may be both tawght to put their trust in god / and see the good workes they should follow / is as a faire coulor withowt light to shewe yt by / vtterly vnprofitable : where the word truly preached / shineth oftentimes clearer in the heartes / then the clowde of the pastors disordered life / can stay the fruict of . And albeit all commaundementes off God / are such as may not for any cause be broken : yet this S. Paul gyueth off the Pastor / hath a speciall fense cast abowt yt / wherby it might be kept in greater safety . For the spirit of God / foreseing this shamefull prophanation off the ministery / together with the present daunger vnto the church / vseth a preface to this description of the pastors office / vsed rarely / and but in matters of greatest stablenes / saying yt is a certein doctrine . As if he should say / that which foloweth is an vnuariable / 1. Tim. 3. 1 and vnchangeable rule / which can by no autoritie of men / for any cause not onely be broken / but not so much as bowed / or once wrinched a side .

His reason that Paul was glad those preached , which swarued from Diuis 2. pag. 44. that rule , beside that I haue shewed it ridiculous : is here owt of place / considering that thes readers which would haue rent his heart in peeces / being ordeined with breach off the rule off God could not cheare him vp againe by preaching : wherunto they are as fit as an oxe to flie . Witnes the D. him selfe / which addeth that our ignorant ministers may by study so profit in knowledge , that they may be able priuately to exhort Where yt is merueilons to see how he fometh owt their shame / whom he hath taken to his defense . Yf he had saied / that in time with study they might be able to preach : yet forsomuche as while that grasse groweth / the people perish / his answer had bene vntollerable . Now gyuing no further hope / then that in time they will be able priuately to admonish / Rom. 15. 14. Heb. 3. 13. which euery Christian owght to doo : he hath gyuen sentence off them / that they will neuer be able to doo the worcke off Pastors / wheroff they beare the name : that is that they will neuer be but idoles . What they doo by reading is after to be seen . The place of Osea which resecteth from the ministery / those that haue not kn●●●●●ge Cap. 4. vers. 6. off the lawe / becawse it failed a litle in the quotation / he hath let quietly goe by .

Where he gyueth me the lie , for that I ascribe vnto him this argument / there must be reading in the church , therfore ministers that can doo nothing but reade : his wordes be thes . I see not how yow can condemne reading ministers , seing reading is necessary in the church . let the reader iudge what a hard forehead he hath . Where I concluded theruppon / that euery one which coulde breake bread , distribute the cup , &c. should be a meet minister : all see that it followeth vpon the former reason . And this which the D. counteth a iest , he is not able to answer in his greatest earnest . His answer to the place off S. Iames is friuolous . For Diuis. 4. pag. 260. Iam 5. 14. Lu. 9 c 2. Pag. 133. his reason why the place off ● . Luke commaunding the 12. disciples to preach / can not be applied vnto our Ministers , is for that other thinges ioyned with yt were temporall . And this is his reason before / that the example off the Apostels elections is to be followed wholy , or not at all . Therfore the place off S. Iames / did fully confute his answer : considering that the anointing of the sick coupled with praier / by the elders off the church / being temporall : thother notwithstanding is perpetuall . And this shift that that place was spoken off all ministers , and thother off S Luke off the 12. onely , will not couer his shame . For what wil he say vnto the rules gyuen as the same tyme / that they should be symple in their ministery as doues , wise as serpentes , Math. 10. 16. 17. take heed off men ? are they not spoken to the ministers now / becawse they were spoken then to the 12. onely ? What vnto that our Sauiour Christ commaunded to goe into all the world / Math 28. ●● . teaching / and baptizing in the name off the Father / Sonne / and Holy Ghost ? which place shaketh hym owt of both his ragges : for that was spoken to the eleuen Apostels onely / and the commaundement off going into all the world / was temporall . Yet I thincke he dare not deny / but the commaundement off baptizing in the name off Father / Sonne / and holy Ghost / is perpetuall / and belonging vnto all Pastors . Wheruppon followeth that the place off S. Luke standeth still / to whip owt vnpreaching Pastors . In the pag. 483. this is handled againe . Diuis. 15.

Where I alledge that they be vnchangeable lawes 〈◊〉 God , that he should not be minister off the church which can not teach , nor Minister Sacramentes which can not preach : the D. leauing the first which was the very cause / shppeth to the second / which is handled in an other Tract. as that wherin his prouision was better . Howbeit because I would not the D. cause should leese her aduantage by his ouersight : I confesse that Chrysostomes testimonie / may seeme to perteine to the cause in hand / forasmuch as he maketh a kinde off preisthood not able to teach . To whom ( with this exception that I will not be pressed with his autoritie / further then he bringeth reason off the word off God ) I answer that as the word preisthood / is often times in ecclesiasticall writers taken for the pastor / and cheif minister off the church / off which our present question is : so sometime yt is taken for the elders / ioined as helpers in gouernement vnto the pastor / and whiche had not ( as shall appeare ) to doo doythe the preaching off the word / and administration off the Sacramentes . As when yt is saied / that the Bishop chosen by Gods ordinance , and the Elders ioyned with hym in the priestly honour . Cypr. l. 3. Epist. 1. According vnto which sense / Chrysostomes saying maketh nothing to this question . For we deny not / but that he may be an elder / and consequently ( as they terme him ) a preist assistant to the pastor / which is not able to preach : but that he may be the pastor / we vtterly deny . So remaineth onely against vs in Chrysost. testimonie / that he may baptize that can not preach : which with the rest perteining to that head / shal ( god willing ) be in their proper place answered . As for the 5. 1. Tim. towching the Elders which rule well / in the treatise off the Presbytery yt shall appeare , that it is not vnderstanded off these caterpillers . where he requireth warrant off the word of God , for that I confesse the church may appoint for a reader onely some graue man , he confessing yt lawfull as well as I : for answer to his request / I refer him to that disputation where 2. Tracte . according to the D. Diuis . 16. pag. 484. I haue proued / that it is not lawfull to place any thing in the church / not iustified by the word .

That the cawse off this fewnes off able ministers , is partly the thrusting owt off those which are fyt to teach , partly that others fyt are not sought after : it is manifest . Whether they owght to be sought after / and not to offer them selues : I leaue to be estemed off that which is written in this point / in the booke intituled off the discipline , &c. Whether they be off right thrust owt , I leaue to be iudged off the discours off these controuersies : whether they which are not yet entred / haue iust cawse to forbeare / I leaue to be considered off the disputation before / and off that of the Archebishop / Archedeacons / Commissaries / &c. which followeth . For if it fall owt that the calling be vnlawfull / wherby the entrance should be made / and the autoritie of the church tirantes such / that being entred / one can not walke in the way off his ministery prescribed off the lord : then it must followe / that although those that are entred / hauing testimony off their conscience that they serue the lorde / and keping themselues from the pollutions / may poursue their course : yet thes can not withowt shipwracke off conscience ( I speake off ordinary callinges ) euen in the very port / or euer they launche forth / commit them selues to this viage .

Where he saith there want no prouokinges to drawe them to the mynistery : euen that is an other cawse off this scarcety . for the church-liuinges so vnequally deuided / that some fewe being druncken / the moste hunger : discourage from that study . For the parent which followeth the sente off honour / and gaine in Archbishoprickes / bishoprickes / and other such poisons off the ministery : is oftentimes beaten backe by dispaire / that they shall not atteine to that gaine / which desired as they thincke off many / can be obteined but off few . He that is willing his sonne should serue in the estate off a Minister / and looketh with a more single eye / to the continuence off true religion vnto his posterity : yet when he considereth how fewe liuinges there be ( those excepted wherwith he will not haue his sonne defiled ) able to mainteine the pastor with his competent howsehold / honestly / he applieth hym to an other trade of life . Wheroff although occasion be gyuen by horrible vnthankefullnes off men / which in steed off gyuing some thing into the treasury off the churche / haue by their pillage browght her almoste to starck beggery : yet that parent shoulde consider / that the lord will neuer leaue / nor forsake his / and that Heb. 13. 5. Agg. 2. 9. gould and syluer is the Lordes . Which seing he fournished to those / that in symplicity sought the building off his howse / owt off the cofres off heathen Princes : he will much les suffer them to want necessaries vnder godly / and Christian . But this place is plentifully handled in the foresaide booke off disc●p●●ne . I onely ( because the question was heere off the cause off w●nting sufficient pastors ) towched yt .

Heere the D. light estimation off the churches saluation / Diuis . 17. Pag. 484. and off preaching is notably discouered . before he saied / that thes reading pastors were taken for necessity : now he teacheth / that ●f there were sufficient pastors to supply the roumes / yet the readers should kepe their places still Yf ye aske why : lest forsooth they with their families should goe a begging . Heere a whole church is sould for 30 peeces off siluer / or rather as I may say / for ould shooes . For the D. weighing in his skiles / whether yt is better that the church should want a preaching pastor / whom God hath ordeined the principall instrument to saue his church by / or that the reader with his familie should goe a begging : hath found the sowlehealth off a whole church / farr lighter then the bodely commodity of one reader with his familie . Where he saith / yt seemeth that I would haue the minister renant at will / or by courtesie : it is an vntrue surmise . For I complaine that thes reading Ministers / were not onely placed vntill other might be gotten : but had a free hould / wherby the sheep are not onely committed to the woulf / but the doore sparred also vpon them .

Where he asketh for the place , in which Augustine calleth them woulues that teach not : if he haue not the word woulf , yet he speaketh Lib. de Past . to that effect / when vpon the place off Ezechiel I haue gyuen the a watchman , &c. he proueth that he which holdeth his peace / murthereth . Which also euen the Pope himselfe / as long as there was but a sparcke of true knowledge / confesseth . Yf the D. Greg. Epist. 1. 33. say / that his men hold not their peace , because they reade : it is a cauill vnworthy answer . As though when the Prophet calleth the rascall ministers off his time / domme dogges , and suche as could not Esay . 56. 10. not barcke , his meaning were to charge them that they could not spell / or reade in a booke off their owne language laied before them . And so I trust appeareth / that this taile off reading ministers owght to be cut of : and that they are none off these princely giftes / which our Sauiour Christ ascended into heauen / sendeth 4. Eph. 11 vnto his church / but the bishops ( to speake no grieuous lier off them ) more then beggerly presentes . But we are not yet at an end . For that which the D. can not get / in comparing a preaching pastor with a keading : he thincketh to obtein in comparing reading with preaching / wherunto perremeth his 13 Tract.

First he mainteineth his vntrue accusation off the Adm. to Diuis. 1. pag. 568. wching their condemning off reading off scriptures . Which in comparing the wordes alledged by the D. with those of the Ad. in ould time the word was preached , now it is supposed sufficient iff it be redd : I commit vnto the readers iudgement . And if his vnhonest realing were not euident there / because off an other sentence off the Adm. subiect vnto reprehension : yet he laieth yt open in the same behauiour to wardes me . For althowgh I haue not a word against reading / and diuers commendations of yt : yet pag. 717. he feareth not with full throat to accuse me / as a despiser off reading off the scriptures , as companion off the Papistes vngodlines in that behalff . Which although he doo often / yet further then his reasons gyue occasion : he shall neuer gaine off me / that I will vouchesafe him a word off answer / to all this owtcries . After vpon that I say / yf I may call hym mynister that can doo nothing but reade ( which is as indifferent to gyue him the name off a mynister / as to take it from him / being left betweene bothe ) the D. according to his ould equity / concludeth that I signifie and that plainely , how I esteme them for no ministers . Which he likewise gathereth / for that I say as they call them . Wherin I will not deny but there may be occasion gyuen / to hym especially that hunteth after yt / off that surmise . But my meaning was / to note how vnworthy they are / as off the office / so off the name off a Minister off the gospell : not to make voide their mynistery such as it is / in administration off the Sacramentes . which I confesse as in the Popish Preistes baptisme / for that they be the publicke officers appointed therunto / althowgh vnduely ministred / to be the holy Sacramentes off Christ . And that this was my meaning might easely haue bene gathered / in that I allowing off the administration of Sacramentes by Heretickes / so much worse then they / as as it is to teach falsely then not to teach at all : could by no equall interpretation / be iudged to condemne the Sacramentes ministred by them .

Where I say that albeit the D. cawse in this point be Diuis . 2. Pag. 969. good , that the reading off the scriptures is profitable : yet as one be pitched , he defileth yt in euill handling : he answereth as though I confessed / that I misliked the matter well handled , onely for that yt was doone by hym : which is a shameles vntruth . Bucers sentence Diuis. 3. pag. 569. ( reading is a kinde off preaching ) I thincke will not be found : and I dowbt not but the D. would haue brought yt / if there had bene any . So he is destitute off his good autoritie , and withall remaineth the absurditie / before assigned . The sentence set downe owt off Bucer is altogether idle : seing the profit off reading the scriptures / both publickely / and priuately is confessed . Where to proue that reading is not so effectual as preaching , I alledge S. Paul / that one can not beleeue withowt a preacher : he answereth Rom. 10. 14. that by preaching there is ment all kinde off publishing the gospell by owtward voice . but off reason off this exposition / ether owt off scripture / or any other / more then his owne I say , he bringeth not a lettre . For that he addeth / off taking away by this meanes from the maiestie off the scriptures , and making them d●●●e , &c. ( amplified in the next diuis . by asking why the scriptures were then written ? with other suche too too idle questions / which I am ashamed to defile my penne with ) is vnworthy the name of a reason . As yf in that reading maketh men fitter to heare the word preached / and to seeke after yt / in that yt helpeth to nourish faith engrended / in that it confirmeth a man in the doctrine preached / when by reading he perceiueth yt to be as the preacher tawght / in that it renueth the memory off that was preached / which otherwise would decay : I say as if in thes respectes / and such like / the profit off reading / and committing the word to writing / were not singular / and inestimable , beside that it is not denied / but the Lord may extraordinarily gyue faith by reading onely : although the order which God hath put / is to saue by folishenes ( as it is esteemed ) off preaching . 1. Cor. 1. 21. beside also that yt is absurd / that the D. asketh why els the gospell should be writter ? as yf there were no other cause of writing off it / then that it should be simply redd : or as though the principall cawse was not ▪ that yt should be preached .

But to retourne to the D. exposition : First it ouerthroweth the argument off the Apostle . For the Iewes offended that he / and other preached to the Gentils : prouing first that the inuocation off the name of God perteineth vnto them / he concludeth therupon / that preaching vnto them was lawfull : considering that they could not otherwise come to call vpon the name off God , where by the D. exposition / the Iewes might haue excepted / that his mynistery towardes them was not therby iustified : forasmuch as they might come to inuocation by reading onely / withowt his / and others ministery off preaching . Furthermore / the Apostle S. Paul affirming in plaine wordes / that the preaching he speaketh Rom. 10. 15. off / can not be made but by him which is sent : yt is first manifest / that reading priuately is cleane shut owt / from being conteined vnder this preaching . For faith comming onely by that preaching / and that preaching onely lawfull by the sending of God / and publicke calling : it followeth / that except he will say / that the scripture may not be redd priuately / onles a man be publikely called therunto / that both priuate reading of the scripture / can no be conteined vnder the Apostles word of preaching / and that faith ( onles by extraordinary worcke of God ) can not be engendred by priuate reading . Forasmuch as it is engendred only by that preaching / vnder which priuate reading is not conteined . And so goeth to the ground one peece off the D. assertion .

Now if priuate reading onely / can not ordinarily engender faith : I would know how publike reading onely / can doo yt . Beside that / when publike reading may be by a simple reader / which hath no other charge in the church / and off whom this solemne fending can not be vnderstanded : yt followeth / that faith can not by publike reading onely be engendred . Forasmuch as he being none off those sent his reading can not be that preaching / by which faith is engendred . I say that a reader onely can not be off those sent the Apostle speaketh off / not onely because he hath regard vnto the ministeries off the word / appointed by God : but also for that the place off Esaie / owt off which he proueth that faith cometh not but by preaching / will by no meanes suffer to cary the word preacher vnto a simple reader . For beside that it were friuolous / to refer the lifting vp off the voice off those preachers Esa. 52 8. wherunto the Prophet exhorteth / vnto a loude reading / which is vnderstanded of earnestnes / and diligence in preaching : that voice he speaketh off / is the voice off the churches watchmen ▪ which title when yt can not agree vnto a simple reader / that hath no further charge then to reade in a booke / according to the prescript off others : yt is manifest / that a simple reader can not be conteined vnder S. Paules preacher / seing he can not be conteined vnder Esaies / which is the same with S. Paules . For when the title off watchman , draweth a continuall care / and circumspection ouer those he watcheth : and the reader for any thing his office requireth / may occupy him self in any worldly busines / sauing onely the time off his reading : yt is cleare that he is no church watchman .

Nay the reading mynisters / which haue charge off sowles committed vnto them / can be none off this order of watcheman : seing they can not onely not see the ennemy a far of / but not hard by / much les discry him : yt perteining to an instructed pastor / which according to the circumstance off the inuasion / knoweth to apply his watche word . Now seing simple reading / nether priuate / nor publicke can be conteined vnder the preaching S. Paul speaketh off Rom. 10. ( which is an interpretation / and laying open the scriptures by a publike mynister / apt / and autorised therunto ) : yt followeth / that faith which the Apostle teacheth no otherwise to come / but by that preaching / cometh not ordinarily by symple reading . I omit heere / that the Apostle vseth to expresse 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . this preaching / both by crying and telling good newes : wheroff when yt can not be shewed owt off scripture / or ( as I am perswaded ) owt of any other autor / that ether of them / much les both together / is vsed for simple reading : yt followeth that simple reading can not be vnderstanded / by the word preaching .

To proue that bare reading ingendreth faith / he citeth Diuis. 4. 570. Iohn 5. repeted pag. 574. 2. Timo. 3. . whereto perteine Math. 7. Act. 17. 1. Iohn 4. Gal. 1. disorderly placed pag. 717. but to no pourpose . For when our Sauiour biddeth the Iewes search the scriptures : he referreth them by that search / to iudge off the doctrine he had preached before : which proueth no fruict off reading / when there is no preaching . beside that / it will be hard for him to refer the word search / to reading onely : as if one could not search the scriptures / when he attendeth to them alledged in sermons . yea he is confuted / by the place him selfe hath alledged : Where he would proue that the scripture red / in respect off making the hearers more apte to discerne off preaching / is better then preached . for when the Apostle teacheth the Galatians to hould them accursed / which preache other doctrine then they had receiued by his preaching : he dooth flatly make his preaching / 1. Gal. 8. 9. the rule to examin other preachings by . The place off Tim. being ( as I haue shewed ) off the proper duties off the minister off the word in preaching / making no manner off mention off reading / is alledged withowt all iudgement . Hether refer Bucers Testimony in his former diuision / which maketh for that set downe in this . For Bucer setting him self to commend reading in the churche / saith twise / bare , or onely reading , confirmeth in the knowledge off the Doctrine : which necessarily presupposeth a knowledge foreplaced / or euer yt can be confirmed by reading onely . Where as if he might / it is to be thowght he would haue saied that it ingendreth knowledge off the doctrine off saluacion .

Where I alledged that the consideration off the creatures may nourish faith , not able yet to breed yt : he answereth / then let vs haue images that they may be lay mennes bookes . Which beside the commen fault off being nothing worth / is a wicked / and popishe answer . For if I had made the consideration of the creatures equall vnto reading off the scriptures in that teinement off saluation / as I compared them onely in that both nourishing faith / nether could ordinarily breed yt : had yt bene lawfull therfore for hym to match instruction by images / with that which cometh by beholding the creatures ? ys there ether the same / or like proportion between the schoole of Imagery / and of the creation of the world ? are thes bookes of the same print ? the one comming from the lordes presse / the other owt off the deuils printing howse : the one giuing a good report off the Lord / and a a Psa. 191. setting owt his glory / the other b b 1. Ro. 23 dishonoring him : the one c c 1. Ro. 18 teaching the truth / the other being d d Iere. 10. 14 Abac. 2. 18. Doctors of lies / and vanity : finally the one being e e Iob. 12. 6. 7. 8. Mat. 6. 26 commaunded / the other f f Io. 1. 5. 21 forbidden ? But thus must the iudgement off God be fulfilled / against the ennemies off his truth : in closing vp their eyes / which seing will not perceiue . The like blindnes yt is / that he accounteth an image a visable creature , making therby a carpentour / a creator . In graunting that preaching is the moste ordinary meane to worcke saluation by / his opinion shaketh : a token that yt will fall flat in the end . For if it be the moste ordinary / and the moste ordinary ordinarily moste effectuall : then it is vntrue he saith / that the word simply redd , is as effectuall as preached .

Where vppon lifting vp off our Sauiour ( as Moses lift vp the serpent ( following Caluins interpretation / which expoundeth Diuis. 5 ▪ pag. 571. Ioh. 3 14. yt off the preaching off the gospell ) I shewed that the word preached being lifted vp higher then when yt is redd / is easelier seen of the eie of faith : this trifler frameth first my reason of the ●● . ver. wheroff I make not a lettre mention . Secondly bringeth an other interpretation off the place I alledge : but answereth not Caluins reasons / who confuteth it . Thirdly / he saith that although the interpretation be graunted / which I followed : yet the cause is not proued therby / for that Christ is lifted vp by symple readīng ▪ which is no sufficient answer / onles he had added / that it is lifted vp as highe . For when I affirme the word set in a lowe place / I meane not that all reading symply / and in it self considered / is on the ground : but in comparison off that when it is expounded by preaching . And if preaching doo make yt better vnderstanded / and easelier seen then when yt is redd onely ( which Diuis . ● . Pag. 172. at vnawares he manifestly confesseth : then yt is true which I haue set downe / that preaching in respect off reading , doth as yt were set the word in a more sightly , and therfore higher place . As for Caluins interpretation which I followed / becawse yt is dowbtfull / and the conference off an other place semeth rather to confirme Augustines / who referreth yt to the crosse off Iohn 12. 32. our Sau. Christ : to spar owt the D. from his owt courses / let him follow that he bringeth / I will not striue , especially seing the same sense off lifting vp our Sauiour by preaching / appeareth otherwise : where by yt he is saied / to be crucified before our eyes . Gal. 3. 1.

Vnto that I alledge off the sauour off the word , sweeter , and more nourishable when it is braied , and cut , then when Diuis 6. pag. 572. yt is by reading giuen as yt were whole , and in grosse : towching the first / he asketh whether the word redd is not a sweet sauour , in steed that he should haue sayed / as sweet / which he durst not . In the second / whether there be no discretion required in reading ? yes / but 2. Cor. 2. 16. 2. Tim. 2. 15. more in preaching . Although thus he towcheth not the matter . for vnto the point of breaking / and cutting off the scripture / doone by preaching which applieth the generall doctrine to the particular circumstance / wherin it is like vnto aromatique spices / sweeter broken then whole / and vnto holesome meat / apter to nourish when yt is chewed / or cut / then when yt is not : he answereth nothing . For as thinges aromatiquall / and meates both broken / and whole / haue the same sauour / and vertue off nourishing in regard off them selues / yet in regard off vs are sweeter / and more nourishable broken &c : so the word off God / off the same vertue in yt self both redd / and preached / ys vnto vs more profitable preached / then redd . wherunto perteineth that Saint Luke calleth the interpretation off the scriptures / an opening of them : which in the second edition / because yt was leo figuratiue then the comparison off aromatique thinges ( that being a metonimy off the preacher for preaching ) I put in the place theroff . for if interpretation off the scriptures be the opening off them / as Saint Luke declareth calling yt opening in one verse / which 24. 27. 32. he called interpreting in an other : yt followeth that the word redd / in respect off being preached / is as it were shut / and clasped . for this cawse are the ministers off the word / saied to haue Math. 16. 19. the keyes off the kingdome off heauen : for that withowt their ministery off preaching / the kingdome off heauen ys as yt were locked .

Where he asketh whether I thincke the praise of preaching , the dispraise of reading : all vnderstand that it is easter to strike water owt off a flint / then to finde honest dealing in this man . For is this to dispraise reading / to prefer preaching before yt ? In commending preaching before praying / and priuate meditation of scripture more then priuate reading / and practising more then both : doo I dispraise priuate reading / or meditation ? and yet the word off God is the same redd / meditated / and practised . But this is a Popish practise : which vpon that we prefer faith to good worckes / concludeth that we make no account off good worckes .

Where vpon that preaching is called both planting / and watering Diuis. 7. pa 722. 1. Cor 3. 6 yt is shewed that as the howsbandman receiueth not fruict , onles both be doone , so no saluation to be looked for , where is no preaching : he answereth that there is shewed how the word off God is not effectuall , onles God gyue encrease : which is to no pourpose . For he not onely sheweth that / but that God gyueth his encrease through their preaching : and that they be the howsbandes by whose preaching the Lord maketh his orcheyard . He answereth further / that in this place there is no comparison betwene reading and preaching : but considereth not how the scripture giueth this / as also those before cited / vnto simple reading / therby singulary exalting preaching aboue bare reading . So that although some off thes in some degree / or all extraordinarily may be doone by bare reading : yet by thes commendations / as it were by a more precious apparell / is aduanced the grace off God / more richly rached vnto vs by the hand off preaching / then reading . Last off all he answereth / that tilling , and watering may be applied also vnto diligent reading : where not daring ( as it semeth ) say planting , he hath chaunged it wheroff the question was for tilling : belike becawse he remembred he had saied before / that yt is proper vnto the Apostles to plant . Where againe his cawse receiueth an other wound . For if planting be by preaching / and not by reading : then in this respect / preaching is more effectuall then bare reading . Then that he saith killing / and watering may be applied to reading : he should to mainteine his cause haue saied / as well / or as muche .

To that off the people perishing withowt prophecy , Pou. 29. 18. which is not bare reading , but expounding , and applying off scriptures : he answereth that the people muste needes decay in holines , and knowledge where there be no preachers . but why doth he say decay , and not perish as Salomon speaketh ? where his cause falleth flat to the ground . For if the people perish / where be no preachers / althowgh there be readers / and contrariwise preaching withowt bare reading / saueth / engendreth faith / and nourisheth yt : yt is manifest that the word redd is not so effectuall as preached / and that by bare reading ordinarily / there is no saluation / and therfore also no faith / both which he before denied . And if the people perish withowt preaching / which haue already bene lightened by it . how muche more ( except the Lord worcke extraordinarily ) must they perish / that neuer had preaching ?

Where he saith / both preaching , and bare reading be necessary in the church : yf he meane publikely / as yt is true in preaching / so yt is vntrue in simple reading . For although yt be very conuenient which is vsed in some churches / where before preaching time the church assembled hath the scriptures redd / in suche order that the whole Canon theroff is oftentimes in one yeare run thorough : yet a nombre of churches which haue no such order of simple reading / can not be in this point charged with breach of Gods commaundement : which they might be / if simple reading were necessary . Considering especially that some off them beside their set sermons / expounding euery day paraphrastically two chapters / with the principall pointes theroff taken / and applied vnto their auditors : gaine that which the D. owt of Bucer / presupposeth to come onely by simple reading / that the scripture therby is made familiar vnto the people . Where he saith they be moste profitable : the wine off this error so fumeth into his head / that it hath taken away the vse off his toung . for two thinges to one and the same end / can not ( but very vnproperly ) be saied most profitable . For if preaching be moste profitable to worcke faith by / then is not reading : if reading / then is not preaching . it is true that men sometime speake so ) when the question is not of comparison betweene those thinges they speake off : but otherwise / it is altogether straunge .

Where he saith preaching is more apt for the ignorant , and vnlearned , and that he denieth not this : the vntruth theroff is apparant . For if preaching be more profitable to the vnlearned then reading / and de at least as profitable to the learned : then yt is false that he hath set downe with so great assurance / that reading is as effectuall as preaching : seing the effect we speake off / is the profit off the hearers . Yet as a man strawght off his wittes striketh him selfe : he ouerthroweth this also in an other place . for in asking why Iosia caused the lawe to be redd ▪ except it had as great force to pag. 577. perswade redd as preached : he signifieth the contrary off that heere affirmed . Considering that the greatest part was off the commen people / and that grosse : as those which newly came owt off filthy idolatry . Further if preaching were as meet for the learned / and meeter for the rude : then his reason there / which imagineth that Iosia would not otherwise haue caused the law to be redd / onles there had bene as great fruict in reading as preaching / falleth flat . Considering that the D. confesseth / that preaching is more effectuall to the people : and I thincke dare not deny / but it is as effectuall to the learned . Therfore the reason why Iosias cawsed the law to be redd / was not becawse reading was as effectuall as preaching : but because being both redd and preached / yt profiteth more then when yt is symply redd .

Where he saieth marry haue bene called by bare reading : he saith yt againe and againe / but withowt all proofe . For where ( altogether owt off place / his pourpose being to proue that reading edifieth more then preaching ) he faith God vsed reading at a meanes to call Augustine : yt is vaine / seing the question is / whether he vsed that onely meanes , for yt appeareth that August . had greatly profited in godlines / before that time wherin he heard the miraculous voice / which sent him to reading . Beside that / the voice he telleth off going before his reading / will not suffer that that reading onely / may chalenge the whole meanes off conuersion . Likewise that he affirmeth owt M. For / off many browght to light pag. 576. off the gospell by reading onely : he maketh not / nor ( as I am perswaded ) could make yt appeare . Although yt be confessed / that that may be doone by the Lordes extraordinary worcking / which feedeth sometime with quarles in the wildernes . Yet yt is hard to shewe any time / wherein there haue bene professors off the gospell / and God hath not raised vp some ministers / which haue ether openly / or secretly as the time required / preached the word : considering that euen in those desolations of the church / the Lord Apoc. 11. 3. by his two witnesses promiseth / that the church shal not be destitute off true ministers .

Where confessing the word preached and red all one , I Diuis . 8. Pag. 573. shew notwithstanding that as the fyre stirred gyueth more heat , so the word as yt were blowen by preaching , flameth more in the hearers , then when it is redd : he answereth that this is to ione with the Papistes in condemning the scriptures of obscurity . but reason he can shew none : and it is all one / as if one should be charged to haue saide that the Sonne is darck / for that he affirmeth yt lighter at noone daies then at the Sonne rising . Then he muste vnderstand / that we place not this difference of lightsomnes in the worde / which is alwaies in it selfe most lightsom / red and preached : but partly in the ordinance off God before noted / making that the speciall meanes / partly in the darcknes of our vnderstanding / which withowt the aide off preaching can not come to sufficient knowledge off yt . Lastely he must learne / that althowghe all thinges necessary to saluacion / might by reading onely be vnderstanded : yet yt followeth not / that a man may by reading onely be saued . For yt is one thinge to haue the scripture in his head / another to haue it in his heart : one thinge to vnderstand yt / another to beleue yt / which beleef being onely able to saue / ys ordinarily onely ingendred by preaching . Heb. 11. 6. Ro. 10. 14

Wherby also we haue a peece off remedy / against another poison spit forthe in this diuis . that to those which vnderstand the scriptures they are as whot , and lightsome red as preached . For where in his former assertion although not in wordes / yet in deed he vtterly condemned the wisedome off God / ordeining pastors / and Doctors for continuall functions in the church / of whom there is no vse / if simple reading be as effectuall as preaching : that being wrung owt off his handes / in that he is compelled to confesse greater efficacy off preaching towardes the vnlearned : yet rather than all this cobweb should be vnweaued / he maketh the ministery off preaching voide towardes the learned . Wheras the scripture doth not onely generally / but particularly / and expresly shut vp the saluation off the learned in the meanes off preaching / as Ro. 10. 14 ● . Cor. 21. Ro. 1. 14. off the vnlearned . But this is a peece off the doctorall diuinity of some in Camebridge / which to excuse their shamefull contempt off preaching / and to make them a pillow to sleepe on / or to pane them an alley to bowle in during sermons in the afternoone : shame not to alledge / that they can profit as much in reading the scriptures / or an homily owt off Chrysostome in their study / as by hearing a sermon in the church .

Vnto the example off the Eumuche , which reading the scripture belieued not vntill he heard Philip preach , he answereth that he vnderstood yt not , and that he speaketh off an vnderstanding reader . Which although it be vntrue / the wordes off his former booke being generall / withowt so much as the least signification off exception : yet it is nothing worth . For the cause why he could not vnderstand yt is there assigned / for that he had no teacher Act 8. vers. 31. to shew him the way . Wherby followeth not ( which the Papistes conclude off this place ) that the people owght not to read the scriptures : seing the Eunuch which both knew / and confessed that he could not vnderstand withowt a guide / exercised him self diligently in reading off them . but this followeth / that a man can not ordinarily not onely come to saluacion / but not so much as to a sufficient knowledge off it / withowt preaching . Where off infinite examples he saith one is as few as may be : yt appeareth this one was to muche for him to answer .

Now for all the false accusations / off ioyning with papistes in despising off reading the scripture , &c. once heare yowr one proces / that yt is yow that strengh then their handes . For as in popery / by committing the office off preaching especially vnto the beggerly friers / and by declaring it more honorable for the bishop to reade a masse / then to preach a sermon / they set reading in the head / and preaching in the taile : so yow making simple reading as profitable as preaching / hasten after them / and if yow keepe the same pase yow haue begon / it will not be long or euer yow ouertake them .

The D. hauing before made simple readers equall with preaching Diuis. 9. pag. 574. pastors / in that he holdeth simple reading / as effectuall as preaching : heere in making bare reading better then preaching / preferreth the readers aboue the preachers . But in this later absurdity / first as before he woulde make Musculus his pack-horse / and therfore brawleth becawse I laied it not vpon Musc . so princely is the D. that he would haue his faultes whipped vppon an other mans skin . but at least I should haue deuided it between them . As if I were matched with Musculus . but the truth is / that he maketh not for him . For he compareth the profit taken of symple reading / and off a sermon made of him which endeuoreth to make a glorious shew off eloquence / and learning rather then to apply him self to the capacity off the simple : which is nothing to that in hand / where good reading is compared with good preaching . And therfore it is ridiculous the D. bringeth of bitter inuectiues , and contentious sermons , &c. compared with orderly reading . For in this comparison / it were not hard to proue ( which is blasphemy ) that yt is better to reade a peece off Lyuy / then the bookes off the kinges : namely if Lyuy be simply red / and the other with interlining / and mixture off popishe interpretation . If one defending this would for maintenance off his comparison bring this escape : would not all men hisse at him ? this is his refuge also Pag. 717. to salue that he saied / off homilies red better then sermons preached .

His other instance off a papist carying preiudice against all preachers , and therfore not moued once by their doctrine , in which notwithstanding after by reading he is established , is insufficient . for if the Lord by his vertue shewed throwgh preaching / doo conuert men vttenly peruerted / and at enmity with all truth / and consequently with Ephes. 2. the ministers theroff : how much more will he therby conuert papistes ? which by doubting whether the gospell be truth / or their superstitions haue ground / or no / cary not that enmyty the other doo / which haue no such entrance . Then yow muste vnderstand / that as in the Sacramentes the Lord doth not alwaies at the same tyme they are ministred / worcke by his spirit / but chooseth the time that seemeth good to his wisedome : so yt is in preaching . wherby yt cometh to passe / that the spirit of God worcking faith at the time of reading / wrought it not by that meanes onely : but vsed therunto the help off preaching / which went before . For as greene wood laied vpon fire / and her with many strong blastes / as laste set on fire / and flaming with one / and that a soft blaste / is not to be be saied chiefly set on fire with the soft blaste / because it went immediatly before : euen so the word off God blowen by preaching / and after sensibly burning in the hearres of the hearers / by the meanes off reading immediatly gone before / is not so muche to be ascribed vnto reading / as preaching . Considering that so it might comme to passe ( which is absurd ) that contemplacion off the creatures / should profit more then reading . For wheras the Lord hath seth the print off the moste off his promises / and other Math. 6. 16. &c. doctrines in the creatures : for example / off his fatherly care off prouiding al thinges necessary for his / in the prouision for birdes off the ayer / and rich array off the lilies off the field : yt may comme to passe / that that doctrine knowen by meanes off preaching / and lying as yt were dead in the heart / may after by sight / and earnest vewe off the thinges them selues / be quickened . yet none off iudgement will say / that the beholding off the creatures wrrowght more in this / then preaching . Howbeit if the cases he putteth in this point were true : yet he is inexcusable / thes plaisters comming a ye are and a half / after the wound giuen by such straunge speach : which owght to haue gone with yt / if peraduenture they might althowgh not heale / yet somewhat hide the lothsome rawnes .

Hytherto perteineth that which he hath disorderly put pag. 176. where he saith / that the reading off Saint Paules epistles did the Romanes more good , than preaching : which is contrary to S. Paules meaning / 1. Ro. 1● . who sheweth / that he could not haue the like fruice off his ministery towardes them / as off other nations / because he was letted to comme / and preach vnto them . His proofes comming a mile after / are first that a mans meaning is commenly better expressed by writing , then by word . Which beside that it is confuted by commensense / all men knowing that there is more certeine vnderstanding by word off mouth / then by lettres ( which if any doubt arise in any word / can say nothing to the resoluing off it ) as yt is alledged / it can not tend but to vtter subuersion off the lordes order / and to proue that commenly , and for the moste part / it is better to haue reading / then preaching . The other is that writing remaineth : as if the question were wether canonicall writing off the scriptures / were better then preaching : and not whether there be more fruict in bare reading that which is written / then preaching vppon yt .

In this chap. which supposeth reading preaching , beside straunge Diuis . ● . pag. 575. asseuerations / and begging of that in controuersie : there is nothing / sauing that as absurdities are fruictfull / this beggetteth other . for pressed he shameth not to say / that a child off 4. yeare olde , is a preacher off the gospell . And why not also a popeniay / tawght to pronounce some sentences off scripture ? for the D. reason ( because preaching 10 Rom. 14 is all publishing off the gospell by externall voice ) 569. serueth for one / as for the other . And beside that it is friuolous that off that God speaketh to vs by reading / he would conclude that he preacheth to vs / as though all speaking were preaching : yt is absurd that he saith / the scriptures are not preached in respect off him that readeth , but in respect of the spirit of God worcking in the hearers . For if reading were preaching / yt should be preaching although it wrowght to condemnation : wheras by the D. all which hearing the word preached / profit not / are not preached vnto . Which as it 2. Cor. 2 : 15. Heb. 4. 12 Diuis. 2. pag. 576. 1. Tim 32 is a grosse error : so it is a shamefull derogation to the ministery off the word / worcking mightely not onely to the saluation off the elect / but also throwgh their fault / to destruction off the reprobate .

To the places prouing that it is necessarily required in a minister / that he should not onely be sufficiently learned / but haue Is. 50. 4. also the gift off vtterance : he answereth not . Towching that the priestes lippes should kepe knowledge / and not his papers : he Malach. 2. 7. answereth that he shall haue it readier in his lippes , if he haue yt in his papers : which is not to pourpose / seing we spake off those which haue yt onely in papers . Then he hath a childish cauill / that if he reade he must vse his lippes : as if the Prophet contented him self if the priestes were able to reade onely / and did not note therby the aptnes to teach / as by vncircumcised lippes / is noted heauines / Exod 6. 12. or vnreadines off speache . That a Preacher able for vtterance , and learning to preach , may reade a sermon , if he meane priuately / is not in question : if publikely / yt belongeth to the question off Homilies . His case off a man pronouncing an other mans sermon withowt booke / beside the fondnes is from the cawse . That the reading of Ieremies , and Baruchs bookes was preaching , becawse the bookes were sermons : ys to dreame / and not to dispute .

The 15. 16. verses Rom. 15. make nothing to proue reading preaching : but make rather against him / in that the Apostle shewing Diuis. 3. pag. 576. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 that his writing to them was grownded off Gods calling / sowght a more generall word / off worcking for the gospell : which agreeth to any action the minister doth by reason off his ministery / ether in ministring the Sacramentes / or otherwise . The difference Sainct Paul putteth between his preaching / is apparant 1. Ro. 15. althowgh the D. hath lost his sight . That S. Paul ment he could not personally preach vnto them , is his addition / corrupting the minde off the Apostle . For where shewing that he had great desire to be personally with them ( form spirit he was not absent ) he addeth for a cawse that he might preach : the D. by this answer / drowneth the effect in the cause / and so maketh the Apostle assigne cawses / which cawse nothing / nor haue any thing to be referred vnto . Where I shewe that S. Paul writing , is no more preaching then his hand , or penne he wrote with be his toung , lightes , or other instrumentes he spake with : he answereth not / for that as he saith it is a iest . Where if his cause could speake / it woulde complaine that he maketh no more account of it / then to esteme her head stroked / when it is cracked a sonder . for the reason is of the efficient cause / seing they can not be the same / which can not be made by the same instrumentes .

To mainteine his ridiculous demaunde ( was not reading off Diuis. 4. pa 577. Deut. preaching ) he should haue shewed / that the reading off yt is rather preaching / then reading off Exodus : which he doth not . Howbeit he concludeth / that the reading theroff was preaching / becawse the Lord commaunded that the priestes should reade yt , that the people might learne to feare God : which is as ridiculous . For so peinting / and grauing off the scriptures is preaching / and peinters and grauers ( which sometimes knowe neuer a lettre off the booke ) shall be come preachers . Considering that the Lord commaunded / Deut 27. 2. 3. & 6. 9 & 11. 20. 21. that the lawe should be grauen in the entrance of their land / and written vpon their cytie gates / and howses : to this end that the people might learne to feare God / &c. After he asketh / why Iosia should cawse the lawe to be redd , if reading had not bene off at great force to perswade as preaching : which phrensie belonging to another question / is answered before . Where he concludeth / that for that reading Diuis. 4. pag. 570. is as effectuall as preaching , therfore it is preaching : beside the falsehood off the antecedent / the conclusion is too bad . for if the raine be as effectuall to cawse the fruictes grow / as the sonne / and meat as effectuall to perserue the life / as drincke : it followeth not therfore that the raine is the sonne / or meat drincke .

Where vppon Nehem. 8. he would proue reading preaching : vers. 3. 4. there is not a word wheron it may be gathered / but contrariwise they are manifestly distinguished in that chap. For beside reading there mentioned / he setteth forth preaching by all these wordes / that the Leuites cawsed the people to vnderstand the law , gaue the sense off the law , cawsed them to vnderstand the reading . And where pag. 91. he saith / that the wordes translated off some they gaue the sense , signify nothing les than that there was any exposition 8. Nehem 7. 8. ioined with reading , bearing him self vppon learners interpreters : seing he seeth no further into this / then with other mennes eies / why should not he haue followed the iudgement off the Geneua translation / which he pincheth ? they being learned men / and moe in nombre then as ( I thincke ) he can alledge . Which I say not to iustify that translation throwghowt / or to shut vp the way gainst a better : but because it seemeth an vnworthy thing / to refuse their iudgement vpon bare autoritie . I haue none off his learned men to looke their iudgementes / howbeit for that I finde one off the Hebrues so expounding the wordes : I will not deny but some other deceiued by him / might fall into that error . Vnto whom althowgh I could oppose an other / flatly expounding these verses off reading ioined with exposition / the exposition off the former not shutting owt preaching : yet I had rather my confutation stand of reason / then autoritie . Which is that the holy gost shewing in the 7. verse / that the Leuites made the people vnderstand the law / in the 8. sheweth howe they did it . for ( saith he ) they redd in the booke off the law distinctly , and in giuing the sense , caused them to vnderstand the reading Wheras those wordes which are tourned ( gyuing the sense ) can not 〈◊〉 withowt a gap / be caried to the peoples attentiue hearing : considering that it is spoken in that verse off the Leuites / withowt resuming off the people ether expresly naming them / or obscurely by any article . Which hard translations when an other sense doth well agree to the suit off the text / are by all meanes to be auoided . That thes wordes ( the Leuites cawsed the people vnderstand the law ) be nothing els but they made them gyue diligent eare vnto the reading : yt is violent . For beside that it is against the generall rule / not to run to a figuratiue speach / when the simple will ( which the D. can not deny ) agree with the residue off the text : especially when both this / and the other interpretation ( they Luk. 4. 17 &c. Act. 13. 15 & 15. 21. vers. 12. gaue the sense ) are confirmed by the practise off the churche : yt is vnconfirmed by any conference off scripture / or circumstance of place : confuted also by that this word is expounded by an other / they made them know the law . Where the scripture speaking off one thing diuersly / if it speake figuratiuely in one word / vseth to speake properly in an other .

Where both by the wordes and practise of the church in other places / I shewed the place off the Actes to be vnderstanded Diuis . 5. Pag 577. Act. 15. 21 off reading , and preaching iointly : the D. not answering the reason / saith that the place is euidently for him , which is a begging off that in question : that he can reade no interpreter which enterpreteth yt otherwise , no one being browght which followeth that sense : that the circumstance off the place maketh for him , becawse Saint Iames vseth for a reason , to proue that the Iewish ceremonies could not be forthwith abolished , that Moses had by reading of the law euery Sabboth so great autority : which is manifestly against him . for it maketh more for the confirmation of S. Iames sentence that he was both redd / and preached euery sabboth / then if he had bene onely redd : considering that his authority was so much the deeper setled in the heartes off the Iewes .

Hytherto perteineth that in the end off his booke / where he trifleth for that the Adm. expoundeth ( reading is not feading ) Pag. 784. by this it is bare feading : which is vnworthy answer / considering it is receiued in all tounges / often to deny that to be doon / in diu . 10. pag. 243. which is doon insufficiently / as is before noted . That also he saith there / repeted p. 718. off dissent with my self , for that saying there that bare reading withowt a miracle can not saue from famishement , I say in an other place that the word off God is easy , giuing vnderstanding to idiots , is friuolous . Considering that I spake off reading / not vtterly separate from preaching . Yf it be easy and gyue vnderstanding by preaching / and reading togither / although not so by reading onely : that standeth which I haue set downe . That he exclameth off that sentence / as Papisticall , &c. I haue shewed how it is catholike / and his Papisticall that maketh so easy a way to saluation withowt preaching . yt is well with vs / and the scriptures kepe their honour / if they bring to the elect saluation / vsed / and applied as the order which the lord hath set / requireth . onles paraduenture he will say the holy Sacramentes leese their honour / when it is saied they are not effectuall to saluacion / without men be instructed by preaching before they be partakers off them .

Hauing shewed that bare reading off scriptures / can not make vnpreaching ministers occupy any place in the church : remaineth yet the reading of Homilies / with the Apocrypha : in which couer is sowght for them against the sentence of condemnation / and storme of the Lordes wrathfull iudgement / which will follow if they repent not speedely . for where thes dry nources haue no milke of their owne : the D. will haue them yet giue sucke / although of the becastes of others . But this kinde off milke hauing taken winde / shall appeare not to be so fit to nourish / as that it may come into the church for a supply of sermone . yt is enough if as for support off the nource / sometimes other then hers be taken : so to spare the pastor hardly able euery day to preach / the godly Christian strenghthen him self with them at home . In which treatise first cometh the D. reason ( Augustin , and Chrysostome preached sermons in their Pag. 297. churches , therfore we may reade sermons in ours . ) The absurditie wheroff lest it should be hidden / he hath made a great deale bigger . for charged with it he answereth / that the committing them by writing vnto posterity , argueth that they thought them very profitable vnto the church . so that his argument is / they are profitable / therfore they may be red publikely in the church . As if there were no profit reaped by reading them priuatly : or as if al thinges profitable for the church / may be red openly in yt . where are browght in to publike reading / whole cartlodes off disputations of the Catholikes with Papistes ▪ Anabaptistes / Arians : likewise of Ecclesiasticall stories a hudge heape / and other rables of heritikes / and schismatikes : which being profitable / haue the D. ladder to clime vp into the pulpit . But one thing we may note ▪ what is that ? that August and Chrysostom writ their sermons , therfore it may be they red them sometimes in the church . If yow be in earnest / in earnest yow are a sleepe . For so far be yow from concluding iustly / that it is meet to reade them in the church : that yow conclude not they were so much as red . I pray yow haue any off our homilimakers / red their homilies in the churches ? I thinck not : onles it haue bene since yow wrote / to make yowr argument seeme good . So in thincking to make one note , yow make two shamefull blots . yow see not why they may not aswell now be red in the church , as then preached : a pitifull blindnes / wheroff the remedy if yow will open yow eyes / followeth . Now to come to the 3. chap. Tract. 21.

The first / and second diu . be not worth the answer / the third is answered / except that he saith / the Adm. proued not the sufficiency off the scripture by 1. Cor 1. 18. 1. Ro. 16. becawse there be manifest places for that pourpose : as though it were thus to be charged / if it vsed places which proue that / although not the fittest . Where vppon that the Lord admitteth no instrumentes be they neuer so vile , in the Exod. 30. 29. Num. 10. 2. seruice of the temple , nor trumpets in assembling the people , but which were sanctified to that vse , although others were as apt to doo the worcke as they , I concluded that homilies , &c. not sanctified of the Lord to that pourpose , owght to be kept owt : he answereth / that similitudes be no sufficient proofe , and that the Lord did not commaund that nothing should be red in the church but canonicall scripture , not remembring that it is the holy ghostes / which teacheth that the tabernacle with the vessels / were made according to the patron off the church now . The which in the holy trumpetes is Heb 8. 9. more clearly seen : considering that the holy gost commaunding them to be blowen by the priestes alone / and comparing the publicke Num. 10. 8. Is. 58. 1. teaching with the sound off them : doth not obscurely declare / that they were shadowes therof . Therfore as the trumpet● were sancrified to the temple / by the commaundement off God : so to make Homilies holy in Gods principall / and publicke seruice / the like autoritie is required .

Where I shew that nether homilies , nor Apocrypha are to be compared in goodnes in themselues , nor in fruict toward the hearer , with the scripture , and reading theroff ( wherin the D. laboured not , but ●o●●ered / against the Adm. ) he answereth that nothing can therby be concluded against homilies , which may not be against sermons , and other interpretations , and rather against sermons then homilies : which is detestable . For therby he affirmeth / that homilies are both better in them selues / and red more fruictfull to the hearers / then the word off God preached . Wherin he controileth also the order off our church / which will haue homilies gyue place / ●f there be any to preach . For confutacion wheroff I send the reader to that before disputed ▪ for if the word preached / be more fruictfull then the word yt selff red : then reading off homilies inferior in fruict to the reading of scriptures ( by the D. confession heere ) must be muche more inferior to the word preached . His reason is / for I make no make no other difference betwixt homilies , and sermons , but that one is pronounced within booke , the other not so . Belike homilies / and sermons are equall in all other thinges : yet homilies excell sermons / in that they are red in the booke / the other is doon by liuely voice . But is there no difference at all but this ? first ●et h●m vnderstand / that sermons in the churche / are expresly commaunded off the Lord / are such as are necessary for all churches / and which no one can want . As for homilies / if they were in this dearth off preaching graunted conuenient for our church : yet haue they no commaundement / wherby they are made necessary / and such as the church is bound vnto : they also are such / as ether all / or the most florishing churches haue not . In which difference there is as great a goulf between them / as is betwen heauen and earth . I speake off them now / as if they were conueniently ordeined . For although in such case / during the conuenience / they ought to be kept as profitable orders off the church : yt thes chaungeable constitutions / compared with the eternall sawe off God / are infinitely inferior . so it is vtterly false which he saith afterward / all kinde off publishing the doctrine in scripture , haue necessary vses in the church . Wherby he maketh thinges necessary to saluaceō / nether expressed / nor necessarily concluded of the scripture : and condemneth in this behalf / all churches which ether haue bene / or are / not receiuing the vse off homilies . Thus ones the singular fruict off preaching the word / is manifest to be so much greater then homilies reading / as the meanes ordeined off the lord / is more fruictful then that off men .

Secondly if they were conuenient / yet they might both be made / and publickely red / withowt any of those ordinary ministeries which the lord hath appointed in his word . for a priuate man may write them / as he may doo a commentary : and if a minister make them / yet he doth nor that by bond off his ministery . for then he should leaue a part off it vndoon / which wrote not homilies : and hauing doon all other partes / should be gilty off the not fulfilling off it / for omitting this . seing therfore there is no commaunded ministery off God required / nether in making / nor reading Rom. 10. 15. of them / and sermons can not be made withowt : there is heere an other singular difference / lifting vp preaching with the fruict theroff / so far aboue homilies red ▪ as the Lordes autorised Embassadour with his broad seale / and letters patentes / is aboue him in whom no such markes appeare , withowt whose ministery when ( as I haue shewed ) faith can not be engendred / nor men ordinarily saued : there being plentifull saluacion withowt homilies reading / as appeareth both otherwise / and by other churches where they are not : the difference of preaching with the fruict theroff / is incomparably more / then that by homilies reading .

The third difference is / that where sermons are applied to the present circumstance / which by chaunge off times / budding off new vices / rising of errors / &c. vary almost euery day this kinde off interpretation ( as that which is starcke / and annūmed ) can not poursue them . for where the preacher with his sermon / is able according to the manifold windinges / and turninges of sinne / to winde / and turne in with yt / to th end he may stricke it : the homilies are not able to turne / nether off the right hand / nor off the left / but to what quarter soeuer the enemies are retyred / yt must keepe the traine wherin it was set off the maker . And if it were possible ( which is not ) to make homilies against all diseases off vices / and errors : and that were also graunted / that the reading ministers could both discerne the sickenes / and apply the medicine laied vp in the homily / which requireth the skill off a learned man : yet as no physicion ( how cunning soeuer ) can so well prescribe at ones / and in grosse against a disease / as he that vpon euery step yt maketh giueth counseill / and applieth his medicine : so no homily maker / be he neuer so great a diuine / can at ones / and before hand prescribe so apt / and strong remedies against sinne / as he that doth yt vpon the present occasion . Homilies then not able to comme to the vices / further then vices comme to them : their vse for this / and other cawses aforesaied / is priuate . For a man feeling him self assaulted in any wise / and knowing a treatise arming him against that assault / may for his vse be profitably occupied in it . I leaue the difference in giftes / instrumentall causes off sermons / and homilies : when as beside the giftes required in homilies ether reading / or making / there are in sermons required the gift off vtterance / and memory . I passe also that the D. in saying there is no difference between an homily red , and a sermon preached , but that the one is pronounced within booke , the other not so : maketh no difference between hym that writeth his sermon / and readeth it / and him that readeth an other mannes / not able to make one him self . this shall be sufficlent to haue shewed that absurdity .

Where also goe to the ground other absurdities / laied vppon this foundacion : as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit , is as well gyuen to writers of homilies , and their hearers : as to studiers for pag. 718. sermons , and those which heare them . as if he had saied / the Lord will giue testimonie to his word / as wel by the meanes which men haue deuised : as that him self hath ordeined . Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church , as well as homilies , if they should be shut Ibi. diu . 5. owt because they are mennes interpretation . considering that the preacher albeit he be a man / yet in respect off his publicke ministery / instituted / and commaund of the Lord / is as the angell off God / yea as Christ him self : which can not be saied off homily readers / Gal. 4. 14 2. Cor. 5. 20. Diuis . 5. Pag. 718. nor makers / especially in that respect . To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches / before our Sauiour Christes comming / and after / towching homilies not vsed in the church , and that in such time when there was greatest vse off them : he answereth / that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely . where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader / what likelihood there is / that there were any homilies red in the church / when both holy / and ecclesiasticall writers / making mention of the forme of seruice of God in the church / to the least / and smallest ceremonies : there is none diuers 100. yeares / that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading / which the D. matcheth with preaching / the highest seruice off God in his church .

Where he saith / that I condemne th argument drawen off mennes autoritie , yt is vntrue : I said it constreineth not . And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter / wherin many easely deceiued / none knoweth the full off it : and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth / wherof he making profession to write / can not withowt grosse ouersight / passe by . where he saith / yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon , that it shovld not be doon : if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes / and Apostles did it not / it being put as a peece off the seruice off God / and as the D. saith . necessary : ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes / which is absurd / or the D. which defendeth the vse off it . He saith / I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red , to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes . so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe / why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies , namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture which is best : he setteth his cause at my courtesie . But if I graunt that he asketh / he is nothing nerer : onles he can proue that a learned homily / is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light / which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote . So that although they expounding darckly / according to the time they wrote in / be not so fit now to reade / as an homily : yet yt standeth still / that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily . Where he saith / I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red : I shewed both by scripture and otherwise / that they had them not openly red / when there was greatest neede off them . Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred / or now when they are the synagogue off Satan / tha● maketh rather for me . They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ / if they ment therby to confute that I set downe / should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged . Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ / and then too : considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon / off whom S. Luke maketh mention .

The testimonies off Denis , and Clements Epistles red in the church , to proue it vntrue which I affirmed / off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone / after the Apostles tmes / are in that respect idle : considering that I onely shewed / that that coustome continued after their tymes / which were the best / and purest . Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches / vppon some occasion / let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome / and practise . Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued / that Denis epistles were red / as Clementes : yet that proueth not that they were red generally / considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches . But what if it be saied / that they were red in those churches / for that they were vntruly Hieron . in catal . illustrium script . thowght of the Canon of the scripture ? Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike / but Clements weighty / and wonderfull . Likewise that Euseb. esteeming Clement the canonicall 3. lib 16. Lib. 3. 27. translatour off the Epist. to the Hebrues : yt is not vnlike / but he had that epistle in like estimation . Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames / Iude / and second off Saint Peter : so he lightly held those for canonicall / Lib. 2. 23. Lib. 3. 3. which were not yf I answer thus / my coniecture hath better reason / then yow yet shew : and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not . yow haue onely Soters / which help nothing more / being red onely at Corinth . Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer / that as other corruptions crept in then : so the seed of this began to be sowen / and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them : yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not . Likewise it maketh against him / that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies / but in extreme cases off sicknes / &c. off the minister : where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food . The councell as it were in a great drowght / or snow when all is couered / will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance . Beside that it is the obiection / which I myself immediatly after preuented : pa 720. my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree , and no cawse off corruption : which is grosse beggery . considering / that I shew how vppon occasion theroff / in time came in the popish Legend / and Gregories homilies : which iustled owt the holy Bible .

Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit / Diuis. 6. pag. 720. wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies , when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers : forasmuch as there were then learned preachers / able to make homilies / which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible : he answereth / that there is no cause to suspect them , but the reason he can not answer . After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly . for if the autority off all those which established that order / be not able to make yt good : much lesse his alone / and being a party in this cawse he owght not ( albeit a singular man ) be witnes . Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea / ordeining that nothing should be red in the Diuis. 7. pag. 71● . 59 can . church / but the canonicall scripture : he answereth / the councell ment , nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures : which is an open / and shamefull corruption . for after the councell had saied / that the gospels with other scriptures / should be red on Sabboth daies : yt addeth / we must not read bookes which are owt off the canon , but the canonicall bookes off the old , and now testament alone . And where he would confirme his interpretation by the 47. canon off the third councell off Carthage : he is againe indebted In the def Apolo. 5. part. 3. cha 10. dluis . vnto Harding / which against Maister Iewell / alledging the councell off Carthage / to proue that it commaunded nothing should be red in Christes congregation / but the Canonicall scriptures answereth with the same wordes the D. doth / charging him with falsehood . To whom as now also to the D. the bishop answereth / that the meaning off the councell was , that nothing els shoulde be red : which he proueth by the councell off Hippo / an abridgement off that off Carthage : whene it is thus written . The scriptures canonicall which are to be red in the chap. 38. church , and beside which nothing may be red : and so goeth forward alledging other testimonies / affirming partly that nothing owght / partly that nothing was wont / to be red in the church beside holy scripture .

His answer to the councell off Colen / is too childish . The councels wordes in the sixt Canon are these / where in times past yt was ordeined off the most holy fathers , that the holy scriptures alone shoulde be red in the church : we knowe not by what carelesnes , other not to be compared with them , are come into their place . Wherby appeareth / that it condemneth not onely reading off sainctes liues , wheroff it speaketh after : but generally the breach of the councels decree / that nothing should be red in the church / but holy scripture . Where he museth how we can say , that reading off homilies were meanes to instle the bible into corners , seing we will haue the reading of scriptures giue place to preaching : I haue shewed how grosse / and intollerable ignorance it is / where I proued the excellency of preaching before simple reading off scriptures / but especially before homilies . The obiection which I made off Diuis . 8. Pag. 721. praier / is answered : the answer is not ones moued , as for that the necessity off chaunging the wordes off scripture in praier , is as strong against sermons preaching , as homilies reading : I haue shewed how false it is : when as that chaunge is autorised by precise commaundement off God / which can not be shewed for reading homilies His reason that the Apocrypha may be red in the church / becawse the councell off Carthage decreing onely the reading off canonicall scripture / tooke them in that nomber / adding that they be aswell red in the church / as counted portions off the ould / and new testament : is absurd . For seing it is vtterly vnlawfull for them / to take them as portions off the ould / and new testament : yt followeth by his owne reason / that it is vtterly vnlawfull for them / to be openly red .

Where he saith / there is nothing in them contrary to the rest off the scripture , accounting them as a part : althowgh the reason be nothing worth / considering that so a booke gathered owt off Cato / Theognes / and Cebes tables / &c. may be red in the churche : yet I answer / that there be many places partly plainly contrary to the holy scripture / partly friuolous / and vnworthy to be red . For Esoras Apocrypha / I will refer the reader partly vnto Caluins In his Opusc . censure of them ( the treatise I doo not precisely remember / sauing that it is like to be in one of those against the Anabaptists / or Libertines / whose gospell those bookes be ) and partly to the manifest contradiction with the holy scripture : which referring Apoc. 〈◊〉 li. 1. c 2 &c ●sd● ● 2. Gen. 34. 2● Gen 49 5 Iudith . 9. 2. 3. 4. the genealogy off Esra vnto Eleazar / to whom the priesthood belonged / is by the Apocrypha referred vnto Ely / and consequently vnto Ithamar / to whom yt did not apperteine . Off some off the other I will gyue a few examples . Where the holy gost condemneth the fact off Simeon / and Levy towardes the Sichemites : Iudith in propounding it for example / and to strenghthen her faith in the cutting off off Holofernus head / alloweth yt . If it be saied / but the booke doth not allow it . The scripture neuer propoundeth a faultie praier withowt condemning off it / especially so long .

The sonne off a a Chap. 4● . 20. Syrach / affirming that the true Samuell prophecyed after his death / leaueth the disquieting off the iust / in the courteousie off coniurers : which is vngodly doctrine / and contrary to that peace the b b Luk. 16 22. scripture saith they be in . where c c Dan. 3. 23. 25. Daniell sheweth that the fire bourned / after the three young Apoc. 14. 13. men were throwen into it / to the commendation of the power of God / which kept them from suffring in any part off it : the counterfait d d ver. 49. off the 3. childrens song . Daniell / affirming that the Angell smote the flame off the fire owt of the fournace / and cawsed as it were a moist hissing winde in the middest / &c. partly falsifieth / partly discrediteth Daniel / as one that lefte owt such weightie thinges as he there supposeth . I passe by how vnworthy yt is / that e e Ecclesiasticus 31 21. he that hath ouereaten him selff / is bidden to rise / and goe vomit / and after get him self to rest : which are preceptes fitter for the kitchin / then for the church Likewise f f Macha . 2. 2. 1. &c. the Iewish fable / of the fire taken to be hidden / and other such toies / and of g g & 2. 14. 38. 42. commending him that slue him self : off h h & 2. 15. 39. demaunding pardon off the reader / a language vnmeet for the holy gost . Thes few off a nomber which come to minde / shall suffise for a tast .

And be cause the D. tasteth nothing but autoritie off men / he hath i i ad Laetam . Ierome of this minde : which writing to a woman / biddeth her take heed off all the Apocrypha , affirming that they are not theirs whose names they beare , that there are many faulty thinges mingled , and that it requireth wisdome , to seeke for gold in durt . k k Ierom. In praef. in Dan. ibid. Ieron . praef. in prou. The hymne also off the three children / he runneth throwgh : where Erasmus iestingly saith / it is merueill that Ierome putteth this song vpon the spit ( meaning / condemneth it ) seing it is both red , and soung in churches euery where , as if it were some speciall holy thing . Wherby it is not vnlike but that he speaketh in another place / off the reading off Apocrypha to edyfying off the people , not to confirmation off the doctrine is spoken rather story wise / in telling what was doon in that time / them what he allowed . for if it be daungerous for one to read them priuately / howe must it needes be more to read them openly ? onles it be with exposition / which is yet more absurd . Except paraduenture to reconcile Ierome / one had rather interprete those wordes the church reades , off the priuate reading of euery one off the church : wheroff there are examples .

Now I must put the D. also in minde / that nether in his first / nor later booke / he hath answered the Adm. reason / towching priuate reading onely of the Apocrypha : because their name which signifieth secret , or hid doth speake as much . If he will say / they are so called because the writers of them are vnknowen : he can not so escape / considering that this name doth put a difference betwene them / and canonicall : which it could not / if that signification should be followed . for part of the writers of canonicall bookes / as of Iosue / Iudges / Sam. Chron. Kinges / &c. are vnknowen . To that wherin the booke is charged / for lifting vp of diuers cha. of the Apocrypha , to be red as extra ordinary lessons vppon feast daies , wherin there are greatest assemblies , some chap. off canonicall scripture being not red at all : he answereth not a word / but leaueth it to speake for it self . Seing then the scripture precisely forbiddeth to ordeine a pastor not fit to teach / and bare reading off homilies is conuenient / off holy scriptures insufficient to saue the people by / which are the cruches wherewith the D. would vphould this lame ministery : it followeth together with the shamefull absurdities / off reading to be preaching / to be as good / yea better then preaching : that vnpreaching pastors as the pestilence off the church / owght to be throwen owt .

Now I retourne backe to the 7. Tract. off Ministers apparell / Pag. 256. in 32. sec. pag. 28. wherunto albeit I was determined ( as may appeare ) to reply : yet considering after / that this cawse hath bene so fully debated / both by bookes in print / and other treatises written in the handes of as many as desire after them : considering also that the D. second answer ( beside false accusations / as that men haue Pag. 256. learned off me , and my parteners to esteme the surplis , &c. corrupt in them selues &c. open facing downe off thinges in knowledge off all men / as that none are hindred one iot from comming to the gospell by prescript apparell : bare affirmacions withowt proofe / as that no minister 257. making conscience off wearing th apparell , will rather weare it moued by example off other , then by the law which commaundeth it : almost continuall 258. reasoning not to the matter / which he cowardly dissembleth / as that Prophetes ( which were extraordinary ministers ) had an extraordinary apparell , which is not denied ( which traine taken at 262. the beginning / is followed to the end ) : triumphes in his owne shame / ●● appeareth in the place off Salomons Ecclesiastes ) : I say beside thes considering that he hath almost nothing at all ? not before answered / and that he hath not fetched from any treasury off good learning / but as taken vp by the highe way side● and considering that we haue this question with very few ( him / the Papistes / or those which haue already cast an eye vnto the papistes / onely excepted / with whom to trauaill in this point before their other gale be purged / were to heale the skinne / and leaue the bones still broken ) all thes things considered / with that that it may better appeare / we take not these thinges for the greatest matter we complaine of : I thowght good to tread this treatise vnder my foot / and to saue some good howres / which might be lost in vnripping this beggery . That I saie off hauing this question with very few / him / &c. excepted / I meane in that where he saith the surplis , square cap , and tippet be most conuenient , decent , and comely : pag. 25● . 285. others in whom there is any loue off the truth / confesse it a weed vnmeet for a minister of the gospell / which not able to root owt / they are for certeine causes content to beare with . And althowgh destitute off answer / he plie his matter with accusations of disobedience / and contempt of magistrate : yet I doubt not but with all indifferent / our open / and simple profession off the necessitie off higher powers / and off the honour / and humble submission to Her Maiestie / and all magistrates vnderneth her / ether in doing thinges commaunded / or patiently suffring for that which we can not with good conscience doo / shall be sufficient defense , especially seing that euen in this matter off apparell / it is confessed / that obedience owght to be giuen / where the commaundement is with iniury to the ministery .

As for the D. ether error / or flattery / that in thinges indifferent commaunded by the Magistrate , we owght not to haue such regard to the offense Diuis. 4. pag. 258. 1. Cor. 8. 7. 11. Rom. 14. 50. 20. Rom. 14. 15. 21. off the weake , but that if all should be offended , that is to say perish / and make shipwracke off conscience ( for that is the offense which S. Paul / and we after him speake off ) yet we owght to doo that which is commaunded : the Magistrate being therby lifted aboue the Lord / we vtterly condemne . Considering it being a flat commaundement off the holy gost / that we absteine from thinges in their owne nature indifferent / if the weake brother should be offended : no autoritie ether off church / or commen wealth / can make yt voide . And where the magistrates commaunding / and owr obedience vnto him / owght to be squared owt first by the loue off God then off men / our brethren especially : this new carpenter / as one that frameth his squire according to his tymber / and not his timber according to the squire / will make our obedience to the cyuill Magistrate / the rule off the loue off God / and our brethren . So that in steed that he should teach / that we may obey no further vnto the magistrate / then the same wil agree with the glory off God / and saluation off our brethren : he teacheth that in thinges off their owne nature indifferent / we must haue no further regard / nether to saluacion off our bethren / nor to the glory off God ( which in neglect of their saluacion is troden vnder food ) then will agree with doing that the magistrate commaundeth . 1. Cor. 8. 12. But I am gone further then I thowght : seing there can hardly be any so symple / which perceiueth not easely / both the fondnes / and absurdity off his answers in this question .

The replie to the D. 8. Tract. off Archbishopes / and Bishopes .

Vnto the firste / and seconde diuision / being beside the question / I answer nothing . Before I come to the thirde / Math. 20. Luk. 22. In the 1. tract . forsomuche as the place off the Euangelistes / which is before / is generall / and striketh at all the loftie / and swelling titles off the ministrie : I will set it here downe in the foreward off the reasons / browghte againste the names off Archbishopes / &c. as that which speaking againste all the smoky names / muste nedes comprehende thes . In the D. answer therfore / wherby he goeth aboute to proue that thes wordes gratious ; or bountifull Diuis . 1. Pag. 63. Luk. 22. 25 Lordes , make nothing againste the great names / and magnifical titles off the ministers : this is the firste / that Saint Marke , and Muthewe haue no wordes bearing any suche sense . Wherunto I answer / that as yt is a generall rule almoste throwghowte the scripture / that repetitions are not withowt some vsury / and increase : so in the writinges of the Euangelistes / yt is to be obserued almost euery where . And therfore yt owghte not to haue bene strange / if other Euangelistes speaking off the autoritie onely / S. Luke added also touching the titles .

Secondly he answereth / this clawse yt shall not be so with yow , is not referred vnto those wordes ( are called bountifull and benefyciall ) but vnto ambition , and tyrannical dominion onely . wherunto I answer / firste that forsomuch as the things there affirmed of the Ministers / and the worde off gracious Lordes , is as well affirmed 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . off kinges / as the worde off bearinge dominion : therfore those wordes ( yt shall not be so with yow ) are as well referred vnto the wordes ( gracious lordes ) as vnto the word off domynion . Secondly yowr answer is contrarie to the authoritie yow haue alledged owte off Caluin . For if yt be true / that thes wordes bountifull benefactors , be all one with the wordes off Mathewe kinges exercise autoritie ouer them , and yowr selfe graunte Math. 20. 25. that thes wordes ( yt shall not be so with yow ) are referred vnto the dominion / and exercise off autoritie : yt followeth that they muste needes be verified also / off bountifull benefactors .

Thirdly he answereth / that this word bountifull is off no such imperiousnes , but it mighte well agree to the disciples , and consequently to ministers . Wherunto I answer / that it is no worde off empire / but annexed vnto yt : and therfore that which can not agree to the ministers / whom God hath shut from any suche domynion . And that it is a worde off greate porte / and statelines / appeareth forsomuche as not onely the Egyptian kinges were so called : but as the D. him selfe confesseth / the Ebrewes did so call their princes . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Now he muste vnderstande / that that Hebrew worde which he hath set downe ( bountifull ) was nether gyuen vnto the Hebrewe princes by flatterie off their subiectes / nor wronge from the subiectes by tyrannous ambition off their princes : but was a title gyuen vnto them by the holy ghoste . Therfore it is apparante / that S. Luke in those wordes / ether respecting the coustome off the prophane kings / or of the good princes of the Iewes in 〈◊〉 paste : mente that style was proper to the cyuill magistrate / and to highe for the lowe countenance off a minister .

Againe this title off munificence / and bountifullnes as Aristotle sheweth / is much more then liberall : and is not said but of Ethick . 4 those / which besides a great readines of mynde to gyue / haue also wherwith to bestowe great gyftes / and that to many . So that yt is no meruaile / althowghe this title be giuen off S. Luke vnto princes / as they which for the moste parte / are onely hable to vse the bountie answerable vnto that title . Againe where he saith / that thes wordes off S. Luke are to be expounded by S. Mathewe , and Marke , which haue for ( bountifull ) they that are greate : yt is manifeste by his owne confession / that this title off bountifull importeth some great pompe / and owtwarde statelines . And therby foloweth that S. Mathewe / and Luke vsing thes three wordes ( princes , great , kinges ) to note one thing : yt muste needes be that this worde bountifull , beinge as yow saie all one with ( great ) is forthwith all one with the other two wordes / princes , and kinges . Laste off all / Caluin gyuing a reason off the signification off this worde / a litle after the wordes yow haue alledged / saith that theruppon yt commeth that men paye tributes and impostes , that princes maie haue to mainteine the porte , and magnifycence off their estate . Wherby yow mighte vnderstande / that this word doth drawe withall a more glyttering / and glorius estate / then can agrree to the simplycitie off the ministrie off the gospell .

Where also againste me makinge two members of the sentence off our S. Christe / one towchinge the autoritie / and domynion of the cyuill magistrate / thother towching his title / and name / the D. owte of Caluins wordes woulde proue / that they be all onethe muste vnderstand that Calu. wordes are not full enowghe to carie that meaning . For when he saithe / that S. Luke calleth kinges bountifull , in the same sense that S. Mathewe saithe they exercise autoritie : his purpose is to shewe / that they perteine / and are referred both to the description off his estate / and to put the difference betweene hym / and the minister of the word . For otherwise they can not be saide to he all one / seinge one of them is verified off the other : and Luke beside this title of bountifull lordes , maketh mention off exercisyng autoritie , and Domynion ouer them . Therfore if this be an absurde saying ( they which exercise autoritie ouer them , exercise autoritie ouer them ) : yt is clear that Caluins meaning is not / to confound one of those with an other . and if yt shoulde / yet the Euangelistes wordes will not suffer yt .

Where further he saith / that the name off graciouse Lorde beinge a name off svperioritie , and reuerence , may therfore be gyuen to ecclesiastical persons , as well as vnto ciuill : I can see no corde off reason which bindeth thes together . For the name of Kinge / Prince / Duke / &c. names off superioritie / and reuerence / by his reason maie be gyuen to ecclesiasticall persons : which him selfe denieth . Therfore the D. muste seeke another distinction then this . Nay let him deuide tytles off dignitie when he will / making as he doth thes two off superioritie / and reuerence one member : whatsoeuer he maketh the other / yt will fall within their compas . Furthermore the names off Erles / and Dukes are no more proper to cyuill magistrates in our countrie / then the name off gracious lorde . For as the one is a note off one lyfted vp into highe degree / so thother : and as the name off a lorde with vs / is not the name off an office / but off honor onelie : so be the names off Dukes / and Erles . For men being borne dukes / and Erles are not therfore borne magistrates : which notwithstanding they shoulde be / if the names off Dukes / and Erles were proper to the ciuill magistrate .

In the name off Archbishop / the firste parte which signifieth a prince / is proper to the ciuill magistrate / and can not withowt robberie / be translated from him vnto Ecclesiasticall persons . Which is to be shewed firste in that our Sauiour Christe / and the Apostles when soeuer they speake off the superioritie off the ministers off the newe Testamente / doo so carefully auoide that worde / with all those which fall from yt / or are deriued of yt . Then in that Aristor . saith / the worde domynion , doth signifie an imperious rule , as Beza obserueth : where he sheweth that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . vpon them 13. off the Actes . it can not agree to the ministers of the gospell . Thirdly euen by the D. owne confession in this place . For the greke worde signifinge a prince / which name he confesseth proper vnto the ciuill magistrate : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . yt muste folowe that the name off Archbishop / which is asmuche as prince off bishopes / breaketh vpon the possession off the magistrate . wherupon foloweth that that name is not onelie iniurious / and tyrannicall in respecte off the order off ministers / while it chalengeth princedome ouer them : but presumptuous againste the magistrate / whyleste yt pulleth that name vnto yt / which is proper to him . So that if it were lawfull for him / to exercise any superioritie ouer his felowe mynisters : yet yt owghte to be by an other title . My maior which yow saie is ouerthrowne , hath not so muche as felte any attempte . for the ouerthowe therof were to proue / that the names proper to the cyuill magistrate / belong vnto one minister ouer another : which is not once endeuored . The minor ( which is that a cyuil magistrate is seuered from the ecclesiasticall persons by lofty titles ) hath nothing againste yt / but this that gracious lorde is commen to both ciuill magistrate , and ecclesiasticall person : which is taken for graunted / where yt owghte to be proued . for all thowghe he saie / I maie see it : yet he sheweth forth no lighte off reason to make me see yt by . as for that he alledgeth / that in some places he is called Dominus , which hath but small lordship : I haue answered yt in another place / where I shew that lord with vs / can not be so taken / vnles he meane a Christmas lord / our lorde off misrule . Nowe both the propositions standing / the conclusion is moste treue . When as also the tytle off Grace , is gyuen to ecclesiasticall persons / which is gyuen vnto the prince / and doth not agree vnto any vnder the degree off a Duke / the nexte vnto the prince : I woulde gladly know what difference there is / betwene the titles off ecclesiasticall persons / and the ciuill magistrate / so great that he muste needes be very blind which doth not see yt . And where the D. saithe / that ecclesiasticall persons may shewe forthe the countenance of their degree : he nether sheweth what that is / and muste be belieued off his bare worde / for there is no profe at all . But off the pompe in other thinges / there shall be ( God willing ) spoken off afterward .

Wheer the D. saith yt is the poincte off a Sophister to striue for Diuis 3. pag 300. names off thynges , where there is agreement off the matter : vnto the reasons / and examples I alledged to proue / that the very bare in 5. diui. Pag. 32. vse off certeine names is vnlawfull / althowgh the thinges noted by them be not / he answereth not a worde . And if those examples be not stronge enowgh / to obteine that at his handes : I would knowe of him which maketh so smal accounte off names / whether a man which confesseth him selfe mortall / may be called by the name of Iehouah / &c. The answer to the first proposition is insufficient . I could take exceptions to the examples here aliedged / as that thes wordes I haue said yow are Gods , are not gyuen vnto magistrates that they should be saluted by the name off God / or that one king should be called the God of England / another the god off France ( which were not tollerable / and approching to the pride off Antiochus ) but to this end that the autoritie which they exercise according vnto God / might be acknowledged in them : yet I answer generally / that those speaches be therfore lawfull / because the Lorde in his scripture hath communicated them with men . wherfore if the D. will proue that the tytle off archbishop / proper vnto our Sauiour Christe / may 1. Pet. 5. 4 be imparted vnto a mortall man : he muste shewe that as the name off God / light off the world / &c. is gyuen vnto men in the scripture : so is also the name of Archbishope . which when he shall neuer doo / yt ys in vaine to pretend thes examples . For as yt had bene an intollerable arrogancie for any man / to haue ether taken / or gyuen the autoritie off God vnto the sonnes off Adam / onles he him self had so honored them : so is yt full off presumption / ether to gyue or take this so highe a name / which being the seuerall off our Sauiour Christ / was neuer by no worde off his / laide owte in commen vnto any symple man whatsoeuer .

The D. answer vnto the second proposition by distinction ( the ignorance wheroff he doth so often times reproche me with ) is full of disorder / and hath nothing sound . first yt faulteth in that yt rendeth a sunder thinges which can not be seperated / and that two waies : one in separating the gouernement of the church by pastors / doctors / &c. from the spirituall . For when the ecclesiasticall ministrie hath respecte to the sowle / and conscience : when yt is called the mynisterie off the spirite / spirituall : when they which 13. Ebr. 17 〈◊〉 yt / are called mynisters in the kingdom off heaue●● when the owtward preaching / excommunication / and other discipline 1. Cor. 3. 8 1. Cor. 12. 1. 5. Mat. 11. 11 2. Cor. 10. 3. 4. which they vse / be spirituall : this seperation off the owtward gouernement off the church from the spirituall / and making off them opposite members / doth not distinguishe but destroie the gouernement off Christe . Thother is that where our Sauiour Christ gouerneth his church spiritually / both with his spirite / and word : he placeth his sprituall gouernement / onely in that he toucheth the heartes off his electe , by his spirite . And where our Sau. Christe vseth the externall ministerie off men / not onely in distribution off his word / but also off his spirite : the D. maketh th externall ministrie / to serue onely for the dispensation off the word / and not off the spirite . wheras he owghte to haue considered / that as Christ him selfe sitting in heauen / nowe teacheth by the mouth of the ministrie : so he giueth also his spirite by the same ministrie / in which respecte yt is called the ministrie off the spirite . Seing therfore the externall gouernement off Christ in his church is spirituall / and euen that inward towch off the spirite of God / is not ordinarily / but by the subordinate ministeries which God hath appoincted in his church : yt is manifest that that distinction / that Christ hath no subordinate pastors vnderneath him in the spirituall gouernement , is false .

And if no man should touche yt / the D. hath gyuen it the fall him selfe . For where he saith / Christ in the spirituall regiment is the onely Pastor : by and by he saith / he is the onely archbishop in spirituall gouernement . Which if yt be true : then hath he also in the spirituall gouernement / other bishops vnderneath him . for he can not be saide arche or cheife bishop / but in respecte off other bishops vnder him . And if this distinction were not false : yet is it here idle / and owt off place . for S. Peter owt off whom I cited this testymony / appropriateth to our S. Christ the name of archbishop / in respecte off the externall regiment : that is to say / in respecte that euery bishop had a particular charge of ministrie vnderneath him . And where the D. faith / there are other archbishops beside Christe in the externall gouernement : seing he can not denie / but the autoritie off Christ in euery prouince / is greater then off his Archbishop : I would gledly know off hym / when he hath gyuen the name off Archbishop to another / what name he leaueth vnto our Sauiour Christ / wherby that exellencie / and preheminence off autoritie / may be noted . if yt fall owt that there is no name aboue an archbishop : I see not how he must not be constrained / to confesse that that name is excessiue / which being the greatest that can be in ecclesiasticall gouernement / is giuen to him that hath not greatest autoritie .

The other faulte of this distinction is / that yt confoundeth / and shuffleth together the autoritie of our Sauiour Christ / as he is the sonne off God onely before all worldes / coequall with his father : with that which he hath gyuen off his father / and which he exerciseth in respecte he is mediator betwene God and vs . For in the gouernement off the church / and superiorytie ouer the officers off it / our Sauiour Christ himselfe hath a superior / 1. Cor. 4 ▪ 23. 1. Cor. 11. 3. 1. Cor. 15. 27. 28. which is his father : but in the gouernement off kingdomes / and other commen wealthes / and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges / and iudges / he hath no superior / but immediate autoritie with his father . Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates / and gouernementes together / is to lay the foundations off many errors . Last of all admitting this distinction / how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his / that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church , being that which is denied : is lefte withowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture ?

Here remaineth onely to proue / the title Head off the church / to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe . I muste therfore desyre 4. Diuis. 301. the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis . pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I / that Christe is onely the head of the church . If Christe be onely head : then that I set downe / that the cyuill magistrate is head of the commonwealthe / and not of the church / standeth . But if the magistrate be head off the church : then Christe is not onelie . Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all / made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe : he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it / and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church / wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities . firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowen / Ephes. 1. 21. 1. Col. 18. which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church / was gyuen to our Sau. Christe / to lifte him aboue all powres / rules / and domyons / ether in heauen / or earth . Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate : then yt ys manifeste / that there is a powre in earth / wherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior . And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title / he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures / the fyrste begotten off the dead / yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth . For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym / as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures . And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places / lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church / can not be saide of any creature : yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article / wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially / whom Saint Paul folowed / vse to tie that which is verified off one / vnto hym selfe alone . For he saith he is the head : as if he should saie / he 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . and none other is the heade of the church . Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe / and of the cyuill magistrate / yt shall haue two heades : which being monsterous / is to the great dishonor off Christe / and his church . So also shoulde come to passe / that the church hauing the magistrate for head / is accomplished / and made a perfecte man without Christe : so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe / should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked / but an addition off that which is to much . And if the churche be planted in a popular estate : then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen / and all haue autoritie / all shall be head there / and no body at all : which is another monster .

Now yf we consider the cawses / why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church ( which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man / aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body : so he ys the cheifest / and highest in his churche / inseperably knitte with yt / and that as the head gyueth sense / and mouing vnto all the bodye : so he quickneth / and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges / gyueth strenght to walke therin ) I say when thes be the causes : yt ys manifeste / thes thinges nor no one off them / ether agreing / or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen / or earth / ether towards the whole church / or towardes any partycular assembly : that the name off the Head of the church / can not be without great violence / gyuen vnto any symple creature . And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate / and mynisteriall head off the church / as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe / hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym : he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted / becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people / nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all . But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body / nor from any parte off yt / and is able / and doth performe that wherfore he is called head / vnto all his churche : yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth / where there can be none in the church .

And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture / that this tytle of head of the church / is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man : so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme / by writers both olde / and newe / which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation . Let vs therfore see whether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church / not onely in respecte off the whole / but in respecte also off a particular congregation / haue De simplicitate praelat . Apol. 2. part. 2. c. diuis . 1. Li. 1. contra liter . Petil. c. 5 : Li. 3 contra liter . Pet. c. 42. their approbation . Cyprian saith / there is but one head off the church . The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same . Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth / can not be the head off him which is baptized / because Christe is the head off the whole church . And in another place / that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted / becawse Christe is head off the whole body . which reason should be nothing worthe / if ether Saint Paule / or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe . And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted / can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte / and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head / that is to say spirituall / no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title / and to bring yt into dowbte / whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule / or to him : yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title / whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes / as he is head off the church .

And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes : so haue they from Emperours / and princes in regard off their subiectes . Ambrose saith / yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue , to be called sonne off the church : Epist. 32. and in the same Epistle / a good Emperour is within , not aboue the chutch . Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head Institut. li. 4. ca. 6. sect. 9. of the church , which is Christe : that the name doth onely agree to him , that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth . Where yf yt be saide / that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches : althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope : yet his reasons are generall / and proue that no man maie vsurpe that tytle . But to cleare that matter / in an other place he vpon the 7. ca. off Amos. sheweth / that it is to muche to attribute vnto a Kinge the name of the head of the church : and that they are blasphemous , that gyue hym yt Nowe where he saith here / and repeteth p 301. that in respecte off the supreme autoritie which god hath gyuen vnto the magistrate , he may be called the head off the church : the supreme authoritie ouer the church / being onely gyuen vnto Christe : yt muste folow that this name onely belongeth to him .

Where partly in this diuis . but more fully pag 301. he saith / althowgh in respecte of life , and nutriment gyuen , and spirituall blessinges powred into the body off the church , our Sauiour Christe is onely head : yet towching the externall societie , and owtward gouernement , the magistrate Pigh. hierar . ecclesiast li. 3. ca. 4. Harding in the def of the Apol. part 2 o● diu . 2 ▪ Diuis 3. pag 300. also may be head off the church : yt is first to be noted from whom this prouision was browghte hym . For as Harding borowed yt off Pighius : so the D. pourueiers had it from Harding / or from both . For to ouerthrowe this doctrine that Christe alone is head of his church / this distinction is browghte / that according to the inward influence off grace / Christe onely is head : but according to the owtward gouernement / the being of head is commen with him to others . For answer wherunto / I referre my self in parte to that I haue written before / off the absurde distinction betwene the gouernement off the churche by the mynisterie off men / instituted off our Sau. Christ / and his spirituall gouernmente . For that if there be no head but Christe / in respecte of the spiritual gouernemente : there is no head but he in respecte of the worde / sacramentes / and discipline administred by those whom he hath appoincted . forasmuch as that is also his spirituall gouernmente . And euen in the owtward societie / and assemblies off the church / where one or two are gathered in his name / ether for hearing off the word / or for praier / or any other church exercise / our Sauiour Christe being in the myddeste off them as mediatour / muste needes be there as head : and if he be there not idle / but doinge the office off the head fully : yt followeth that euen in the owtwarde societie / and meetinges off the church / no symple man can be called the head off it . Seing that our Sauiour Christe doinge the whole office off the head him selfe alone : leaueth nothing to men / by doing wheroff they maie obtaine that tytle . Wherfore whosoeuer in seeking to profite the churche according to his calling / doth any thing to the preseruation off this body : he doth yt as an eye / an arme / an eare / or as some other member / and not a● head off it .

Now to his distinction owt off Andreas . who after he confesseth that Christe is onely head / as he gouerneth the church with Pag. 18● . his spirite : addeth / that for somuche as the church off God being visible / is not onely ruled by the word / but by sword off the magistrate / that there be so many heades off the church / as rulers off countries . Where firste let it be obserued / that he quoteth no place : peraduenture leste some ether wordes / or circumstance might gyue the answer . Then that he enhaunceth his credite whith the tytle off a learned man : where for any thing I haue redd ( and I haue redd his defence off the real presence against Beza ) yt might well haue bene lefte owte . Howbeit both for his corruption in iudgement / and otherwise : I refer the learned reader / to that Vrsinus a learned man hath written against him . Wherby he may vnderstand howe this commendation was without discretion / onely to serue the present tourne . And I beseche yow Sir / who is this Vergerius whom Andreas reprehendeth : which you haue so nakedly set downe / clothing Andrue so gorgiously ? This is is good reader Petrus Paulus Vergerius / with whome whether the other be once to be compared / ether for sownd knowledge / or innocencie off lyfe / I leaue to their iudgement which haue redd / and knowen them both : and withall whether if an argument of autoritie be off such weighte as the D. will haue yt / he hath by this testimony made a hole in his owne cawse .

In the distinction yt ys firste to be obserued / that as Andrue dissenteth from the truth : so he doth from Pighius / Harding / and the D. for when he opposeth the gouernement by the sword / vnto that off the worde / making yt off the word a peece off the spirituall gouernement / and then saith that there be diuers heades off the church in respecte off gouernement by the sword : he gyueth to vnderstand that his Iudgement is / that in respecte off the ecclesiasticall mynisterie / our Sauiour Christ is onely head . Which may yet better appeare in that he saith / ther are so many heades / as rulers of countries : and saith not so many heades as bishops off churches . And if this be not his minde : yt will stand the D. vppon / to bringe owt other wordes to declare yt . Now Pigh. Hard. and the D. vppon the bare word off Athanasius / will haue heades in respecte off the ecclesiasticall gouernement : pa 30● . they one ouer all churches / he one in euery diocese . Wherin the reader may see / that yf this rotten seede take rooting / howsoeuer the Princes honor be pretended / the fruiete perteineth also to the bishops . In which distinction off bishop head off his / but not of the whole church : albeit the D. woulde gladly seme to slip from the Papistes / yet they will not so parte with him . For beside that I haue shewed how the godly learned / vppon that our Sau. Christ is head / conclude as well against heades of particular churches / as against one head off the vniuersall : this Iudgement off his is the deuinitie off two Popishe Councels / Constance / and Basile . Where the Bishops ( those especially before partners in this robberie off our Sauiour Christ with the man off Rome / and namely he off Antyoche ) displeased that the Pope alone should haue all that boutye : to make Roume for them selues / shut his headship vp in the compas off his owne countrie : opening their eyes to so muche trwth / as serued their owne tournes .

But to come to the poinct off Andrues distinction : let yt be consydered fyrst that our Sauiour Christ ys in one respecte creator / and preseruer of man kinde / in another redemer / and vpholdder of his church . For he created once / and preserueth daily as God coequal with his Father / and holy spirite : but he both redemed once / and daily gathereth his church / as mediatour of god and man . in which respect euen yet in his infynite glory he enioyeth / he is / an shall be vnder his father / and holy goste : vntill hauing put downe all rule / and power / he shall render the kingdome to his 1. Cor. 1● , 24. Father . Secondly yt ys to be considered / that as our Sauiour Christe doth thes in dyners respectes : so he doth them by diuers means . To wyt that as God symply he hath ordeined certein means / to serue his prouidence in the perseruation of man kynde : so as God and man / he hathe ordeined other certein / for the gathering / and keping off his church . Thes groundes laied / yt is to be considered / whether the exercise off the sworde by the magistrate / come from our Sauiour Christe preseruer off man kinde / wherin he is coequal to his father : or as mediatour off his church / wherin he is inferiour . Where forasmuche as our Sauiour Christes kingdome was not of this world / and that against horrible disorders in his church / punishable by the sworde / he did not ( one extraordinary whipping excepted ) draw yt : and considering that this lawfull ordinance off God / is not onely in the churche / but withowt : yt is manifest that our Sauiour Christ in respecte off his mediatourship towardes vs / exerciseth not the cyuill sword . For in that he said his kingdome was not off this worlde / he made an opposition not vnto the wicked off the worlde / as other some times but vnto Cesars autoritie / which was the ordinance of God / wherto he was falsly charged to haue made claime . And in that he drewe not the sword againste open disorders / it argueth that that was without the compas off his vocation : otherwise he would neuer haue suffred the glory of God / to haue bene troden vnder feet . And in that the autoritie off the sword in heathen princes ( althowgh not a like vsed ) is the same ordinance off God that in Christian : th one proceding off God immediatly / and not from our Gauiour Christ as mediatour / thother doth likewise . But why should wee wrastle further in this poincte with Andrue ? seing the D. which buildeth of his autoritie / in confessing that the magistrate is ordeined off God immediatly / standeth with vs that he ys not ordeined off our Sauiour Christe / in respect that he is mediatour betwene God and vs . heruppon followeth that the office off the cyuill magistrate is properly one off those means / which serueth the Lordes prouidence in the preseruation off man kind . Now yf the cyuill magistrate should be the head off the church : he must be an vnder / and subordinat head off Christ . Consydering that the lorde hath committed the gouernement off the church / vnto our Sauiour Christe / and that otherwise there should be two heades off yt / wheroff one were not vnder another : which is absurd . But he is not an vnder / and subordinate head off Christe / consydering that his autoritie cometh from God symply / and immediatly / euen as our Sauiour Christes : and therfore not the head off the church .

To this disputation perteineth that which the D. els where Diuis . 19. Pag. 310. Pag. 630. in synuateth / off the Magistrate comprised , albeit not expressed in the 12. 1. Corinth . vnder the word gouernementes : but in an other treatise more plainly . in the fyrst place to hale in the Archbishop / in the second to thrust out the elders : which notwithstanding is easely refuted by the same place . for if the cyuill magistrate shoulde be comprehended vnder that worde off gouernement / and be one off the officers off the church there mencioned : yt should followe that he should be an vnder officer / not onely to the Apostles / but also to Prophetes / and Doctors . For S. Paule putteth thes as the principallest mynisteries in the church : as the degres off first , second , and third declare . But I thincke the D. will not make him vnder officer to all thes : therfore he is not comprehended vnder that diuision / but is of an other sorte off officers . Secondly yt should follow / that Christian magistrates were in that tyme / yt being graunted that the offices there reckned / were already in the church . But the D. saith / that there were then no Christian magistrates : yt foloweth therfore by his owne wordes / that the magistrate could nether be expressed / nor conteined in those wordes . yf yt be said that althowgh the D. say there were none / yet I / and the trwth yt selfe saie otherwise : I answer that all the gyftes / and offices there reckned / were not onely then / but were then most plentifull . Considering therfore that the Christian magistrate / was then a gifte more rare then at other times after : yt can not be that he is comprehended vnder that wordes Vppon all which yt falleth / that the Magistrate is head off the church as Andreas saith / in respect off that he exerciseth the sword . Likewise it goeth to ground which the D. putteth / that by the same reason the magistrate is head off the commen wealth next vnder God , he may be also head off the church . Which is a grosse peticion of the principle / being nothing but the contrarie off that I set downe .

That owte off Chrysostome / that certeine weomen were head off the churche off Philippos , will not serue : considering that he speaketh not off any cheifdome in powre / or autoritie / but off excellencie 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 in godlines / and zeale . And the greek word he vseth signifying also a summe / nedeth not to be taken in signification off head : but that Chrysost. meaninge was / that in those weomen / there was as it were a summe off the church / in whose godly vertues / a man might beholde the estate off the whole . Nay yt can not but with great violence there signifie a head / for then he should haue said / they were heades of the church : and not head . And if it shoulde : yet yt muste be vnderstanded / that head there is to say the cheife off the weomen off that church : which is nothing to purpose . for I am sure yt was not Chrysost. minde to preferre them to the Bishopes / &c. The cauill also that the magistrate being but a member off the church , is not therby barred from being head : is vnworthy answer / In def. Apol. part . 6 ▪ cap. 4. Diuis . 2. Daniel 10. 13. Colos. 1. 16. seing yt is manifest off what members I spake : and the Bishop off Salsbury speaketh euen in the same wordes .

Yf yt be said / that the magistrates honour ys touched here : I answer that then the Angels them selues are dishonoured / which hauing gouernement of kingdomes / and nations / add also of the churches which they serue : haue not / nor owght as I haue shewed to haue / the title off head off the churche . Nay those which goe abowte to gratifie Princes / with the spoile off our Sauiour Christe / are found dishonorers of them : as those which leaue them no place in the church of Christe . for if the magistrate be head of the church of Christe / which is within his domynion them he is none of yt . For all that church maketh the bodie of Christe / and euery one of the church fulfilleth the place of one member of the body . So that he that is not of the body / can haue no place in the church . yf yt be further said that he hath iniury / considering that he bringeth such singular comforte / and profit vnto the church / establishing the purenes off religion / ouerthrowing the corruptions / repressing sinne / crowning vertue : beside the weight of glory which attendeth for good Princes in the life to come / and that they are honoured with most honorable names / which owght more then contente the moste excellent seruantes off God / which are but symple creatures : yt muste be also considered / that as the godly magistrate being head of the common wealth / bringeth singular commoditie vnto the church : so doo the godly pastors / which be the church officers / bringe singular fruict vnto the commen wealth . For whilest they conquere by the word / riote / adultry / couetousnes / pride / idlenes / &c. wherby diseases / beggery / translations off inheritance from the right heires / needles dearthes / seditions / rebellions ( whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth ) : they may be well called the horse / and chariot of the commen wealth . But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied / officers of the commen wealth : no more can the magistrate / which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche / be called properly the churche officer . Yf ( as I see ) it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche / because they being members / by publike calling Bez. confess ca. 5. artic. 23. procure the quiet theroff : they which are disposed may so speak / I will not striue . But why I esteme the title off head of the church / not to agree vnto any simple creature / etherin heauen / or earth / I haue shewed my reasons / let the church Iudge .

The question is not whether the name of Archbishop is / but whether it owght to be continued : and if the continuance of it in our Diuis. 5. pag. 302. church / draw such credit / the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt Christendome / must needes bring great preiudice . But it is lawfull : therin is the question . Which althowgh he hath often affirmed : yet we are come to an end of the decision of this question by the scriptures / and no word browght to confirme it . Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse / which will minister him nothing to say : or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute . For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficient : yet if he would haue this title continew in the church / he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word / both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it / and confirmed them which wauer . For the sixt diuis . let the Iudgement be the readers . Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise / take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math.

Yowr trans●ation the kinges off the Gentils , wherby yow would pag 62. prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil / and ecclesiasticall power / is faulty : as that which withowt necessity / goeth from the proper signification off the word . For it signifieth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Gen. 10. 31. 32. Deut. 32. 28. Psal. 43. 1. Math. 28. 19. Act. 10. 35. Luk. 7. 5. naturally / not the Gentils / but symply any nation / in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould / and new testament : and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations / but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part / he calleth them by the same word here vsed . Therfore it appeareth / that there is nether any such meaning of the Euangelistes : and if there were / yet he gaineth nothing . For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils / forasmuch as there was no King / nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes . Wheruppon our Sauiour was compelled / to take example off princely autority from the Gentils . And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes : yt was the high priestes / and other ecclesiasticall persons . Which beside that yt was bastard / and degenerate from the institution off God : it was both more ambitiously sowght ( as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories ) and more tyranically administred / as appeareth in scriptures / then any the most disordered Act. 4. 3. & 5. 1. &c. & 9. 1. 2. gouernement amongest the Heathen . So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition / and tyranny in gouernment : he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils / when he had it at home .

Yt may be saied further / that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills / would therby pull owt off the peoples heades / that fond opinion amongest them / and the rest off Iewes : that they at the comming off the Messias / should be Emperours off all the world / and all the Gentills be their subiectes . Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy / was grounded off that idlephansie . And if neede required / it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges / and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils / which both came vnto their gouernement modestly / and vsed yt with all equitie / and commoditie off the subiectes ; as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes / whose entry hath not bene so honest / nor gouernement so easy . vpon which consyderations it may appeare / that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place . Last off all / there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ / which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretation . For when as it is certeine / that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before / and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others / to this to be ministred vnto by others : it must needes follow / that the place which went before / must be vnderstanded simply of domynion / and not tyrannicall domynion . for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning : he should haue saied / as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto / or ambitiously to desyre it / but modestly to rule .

The distinction also of the Magistrate / and off the minister / wherin the weight of this cawse lieth / is not towched . This diuision off domynion , is altogether idle . for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion / from the ecclesiasticall person : I ment lawfull . and when as I deny / that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all : what place is there left to this diuision ? for what dominion soeuer he had proued / to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person / had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe . And as the diuision is superfluous : so yt is vnskilfull . For the two first partes / the rule with oppression , and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one : and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before . And so it is not onely no good diuision / but no diuision a● all . Nether is he any happier in applying off it . for where my second proposition was / that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion : he saith / that is true in the two fyrste significations . Wherby muste follow / that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression / or els for the Bishop . For if it be lawfull for nether of them : them one is not seuered from the other / in those kindes off domynion . The last section off the 62. page / &c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices . I will put ouer vnto the proper place . Here the question is onely / what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery .

The autoritie off man in Gods cawse / weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason . Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place / by Bucers Iudgement : especially / considering it hath counterpois / of other as learned . Howbeit although Bucer followed an other interpretacion than wee : yet yt shall appeare he ment nothing lesse / than therby to approue any of this stately Lordlines vsed of our bishops / and that he is in this cawse ours . As for his interpretacion / for my part although I confesse that Princes in prouiding for the peoples vnder them / doo after a sort serue them : yet I deny that our S. Christ ment to note here / Princes duties in their gouernment . And fyrst the circumstance of the place doth confute yt . For when as the disciples gaping after worldly rule / depended of the opinion conceiued / that our S. Christ should be a great king vpon earth : it is apparant that his answer / that he came to be a minister and to serue , was to ouerthrow that phantasye of theirs . as if he should say / yow looke to be Lordes vnder me / and I my self came not to be a lord / or Prince : wherfore yowr desyre of rule vnder me / is in vaine . And if this be the naturall sense of those wordes : then yt is manifest / that this word of ministring / being opposed vnto the state of a Prince / this sentence can by no meanes agree vnto ciuill magistrates .

Further / when he calleth his disciples to the imitacion of his seruice / and ministry ( him self being a minister of the gospelly : it is cleare / that he speaketh of such a ministery / as can not agree vnto the ciuill magistrate . This may yet better appeare / by the adiointes / or cleauinges knit vnto the mynistery : which being suche as can not agree to the cyuill Magistrate / it followeth that thes wordes can not be vnderstanded off both gouernementes . For our S. Christ in his mynistry / did not onely serue vnto others / but was as a seruant : and did not onely minister / but was as a minister / that is to say caried the face / and countenance of a seruant / in apparell / in diet / in obedience vnto the cyuill Magistrate . Wherunto the Apostle hath regard / when he saith / that our Sauiour tooke the shape / and forme off a seruant . But Princes althowgh they serue Philip. 2. 7. the profite off their peoples : yet they nether carye / nether is it meet they should carie / the forme / and shape off seruantes / ether in apparell / or diet / or any part off cyuill behauiour ▪ but contrariwise it standeth with the ordinance off God / that they should haue some owtward marke off excellency / aboue the rest .

Moreouer in that our Sauiour Christ / declareth that the cheiftye of the disciples shall neuer be so great in the churche / but that the highest shall be seruant vnto the rest : it muste needes be that he meaneth an other kinde off seruice / then can agree vnto the cyuill Magistrate . For although he be called a minister , and Rom 13. 4. 6. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Act. 13. 36 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 2. Corin. 45. Psal 2. 11. & 18. 1. publicke officer of God for the profit of the people / and it be saied that Dauid did minister vnto the age wherin he liued : yet that the holy gost doth euer call them seruantes off their people / as he saith here his disciples shall be / it can not be shewed . for this word seruant / which our Sauiour Christ attributeth vnto his disciples / and S. Paul vsed in saying that he was the Corinthians seruant , signifieth a lower / and more humble kinde off seruice then the other : and is neuer attributed ( as I thinke ) vnto the ciuill Magistrate in respect off his subiectes / but onely in respect off his subiection vnto the Lord . Wherupon followeth / that forsomuch as our Sauiour Christ speaketh here / of a more humble seruice then can fall into the Maiestie of the cyuill Magistrate towardes his people . this place can not be vnderstanded off the cyuill gouernement .

That in the end hath also force / that wheras the Euangelistes speaking off principalitie / and greatnes which the Magistrate hath ouer his subiectes / vse with full consent the word Prince : when they come to describe the superioritie / and greatnes which 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . our Saui. Christ will haue in his mynisters / they also with full consent absteine from it / being proper ( as I haue shewed ) to the Magistrate : and set in place theroff a leader , a word off lesse autoritie / 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Heb 13 7. and by th apostle ascribed vnto mynisters . Where yf he had ment in that later part / to haue described the duty off the cyuill magistrate : he would by all likelihood haue kept the same word / saying / whosoeuer amongest yow shal be Prince / shall be as yowr seruant . Therfore yt is euident / that our Sauiour ment this sentence off the ministry off the word / and not of Magistrates .

I know well yow say this place is fitly alledged against the Pope , Diuis 2. pag. 64. and that in wordes yow thrust him far away / whom in deed yow cawse to approch . But forasmuch as yowr wordes seruing against the Pope / yowr reasons are for him : and that his person being changed / his cawse is still defended : it behoued me to looke / not so much at yowr defiance in wordes / as at that maintenance which the course off yowr disputation bringeth vnto him . And let it be now considered / whether yowr toung being with the Bishop / yowr hand be not with Harding . He to proue that the Pope may exercise both ciuill / and ecclesiasticall iurisdiction / In the def. off the Apol. part 6. c. 11. diuis. 4. 5. bringeth forth the example of Moses both priest , and Prince . The Bishop to confute that / alledgeth this text off S. Mathew . which if it put not a difference betwene the office of a Prince / and off a minister ( as yow say it doth not ) : then hath the Bishop answered nothing . For the question is not there / whether the Pope may tyran̄ously / or ambitiously ether seeke after / or exercise cyuill iurisdiction : but whether he may exercise any at all . Nether is the question / whether the Pope may exercise that autoritie as a thing belonging vnto him self / or of the graunt off Princes . For then his rule should be auouched good in some times / when the Emperours haue willingly submitted them selues / with their scepters vnto the pleasure off Popes . As for his reigning in mennes consciences , it peteineth not to this place . So that if the D. answer be good : then this place which the Bishop alledgeth / maketh nothing against the Popes ciuill sword / prouided that he seeke it not , and that he haue it of the kinges graunt . Which how contrary it is to the Bishops meaning / may easely appeare by that which followeth .

Yf therfore he agree with the bishop ( as he saith ) : he muste allow Defens . Apol. ib. off thes wordes off Cyprian / Christ by seuerall dutyes , and distinct honours , hath here set a difference betwene both the powers . And then doth Bucers autoritie faile him : who thincketh that those offices are not distinguished in those wordes ( it shall not be so with yow ) . and then also is he goen from his strongest hold / that our Sauiour Christ , did onely discerne betwene the affections : when as it is saied / that he discerned betwene the offices . Moreouer then must he allow off Bernardes saying : yt ys plaine that temporall domynion is forbidden the Apostles , now therfore thow being Pope how darest thow vsurp ether the Apostleship being a prince , or the Princehood , being successour off the Apostle ? doubtles from the one off them thow art forbidden , &c. And if he allow off this : then falleth he from his conning distinction / off hauing it ambitiously , and by election . For considering that Bernarde saith / he is forbidden it / and speaketh not there against the abuse / but against the vse off dominion in a bishop : it followeth that domynion nether falleth into a bishop / in that he is a bishop : nor can be receiued off him / being offred off the cyuill Magistrate . The reader therfore may see / that the exposition yow follow off this place / doth quite ouerthrowe the bishops answer / and openeth the Papistes mouth which he had stopped .

* * Diuis . 3. Pa 65. &c Yf this cawse should be tried by autoritie / yow could gaine nothing . Not onely Caluin / Iewell with the auncient fathers which he alledgeth / but a a 57. serm in Apoc. 5. Dec. 2. serm. Bulling. b b Praef. in Eccles. Zuing. c c Vpon the place & 1. Act. Gualter with a a nomber of d d Melan . vt apparet 9 × 16. cont. Pighij . d Heming as appeareth 419 pa. alledged in my former booke . others / doo expound it as I haue doon : and proue by those places off the Euangelistes in plaine wordes / that there is no superioritie off one minister ouer an other / and that with fuller wordes then Caluin vseth . And euen the very same word Maioritie , which yow say in the margent off the text / is proued by these places : Bullinger affirmeth to be ouertrowen by the same . As for yow / albeit yow pretend Musculus , &c. yet in very deed these answers which yow make / are taken properly owt of f f 5. li. Hierar. 5. c. & 8. & 16. cont. de potest . eccles. Pigghius : which hath all those corners / reasons / and shiftes / almost word for word / as yow haue cowched them here in this treatise .

I report me whether I haue spoken to the meaning or no : yow haue mustered them by fyrst , second , third , I will also answer them seuerally . And to the first I answer / that although our Saui. Christ saied not , no man owght to be great amongest yow : yet he saied as muche . for when he saith / the greatest shal be as the least , he that is first , as seruant to all : he fetching downe the greatest to the least / and making the cheiftie amongest them a seruice vnto them all : taketh away all dominion off one ouer an other . This reason I hauing answered before / was vnneedfull to be here repeated . so remaineth for him to proue / that if our Sauiour Christ had ment to take away all domynion off the Apostles , one ouer an other : then he would haue saied , no man owght to be great amongest yow , and that there was no other way to giue owt this sense but this . The second concludeth / that our Sauiour had no meaning to take away superiours amongest Christians , nothing to this question . For no man denieth / but there owght to be superiours . As for that he interlaceth off Peter● cheifty : it is answered afterward .

The similitudes he vseth / can not win his superioritie off one minister ouer an other . For as for heauenly bodies , althowgh one off them be more excellent then an other : yet they exercise no dominion one ouer an other . Therfore if it proue any thing : it proueth that excellency off giftes amongest ecclesiasticall persons / doth not lift them vp in autoritie / and commaundement one ouer an other : but onely maketh a difference in order / and comelines . Which we haue shewed in the beginning to be in ecclesiasticall mynistery : where we willingly receiue order / opposed to confusion : refusing domynion opposed vnto subiection . For the heauenly spirites . what will yow alledge to proue / that they haue domynion one ouer an other ? The place of the Ephesians / thrones , domynions , principalities , powres ? if yow doo : it is boldier then Augustine durst doo . But if they be superiour one to an other : that superioritie is Enchi . 58 ca. answered in the church by superioritie off mynisters ouer the people . If they be seuered in orders one from an other : that is not denied to be in officers off the church . If they exercise domynion one ouer an other : that is expressed in commen wealthes . So that if the Answ. were able to proue all these / which will be hard for him withowt Denyses dreames : yet he may see they conclude not a domynion / off one minister ouer an other . The third reason likewise / concludeth not against this cawse : and to thes two reasons I answered at large . Which if the Ans. would haue taken away : he owght to haue shewed / that there can be no superioritie of one ouer an other in the church / onles one minister be superior to another . but that he passeth slily by / and picketh a quarell vnto the examples .

To his exception against the first example / that there is inequalitie amongest seruantes : I answer there is none / but by the maisters expresse appointement . And therfore if he will haue aduantage theroff : he muste proue that it is the Lordes ordinance / that one minister shoulde rule ouer an other . beside that / it is enough to mainteine mine answer / off equalitie off seruantes in a familie / that it is so for the most part : and when my meaning was of seruantes left in one / and the same order / yt is owt off time to alledge this example . Secondly the inequalitie there made / is not of one steward ouer an other / but ouer the familie which he ministreth vnto : and therfore this similitude maketh to shew / that one minister is not ruler ouer an other / but euery minister ruler off his flock . Thirdly that similitude off gouernement off the steward , Math. 24. being propounded as a picture to set forth the rule off ministers ouer their flockes : declareth not onely how there owght no gouernement to be erected in the church / but by commaundment off God : but also how far it owght to be from that absolute domynion / or lordly pomp / which the Answ. would bring in . which Musc. a great man with the D. declareth / when he saieth : He speaketh after the commen faschion : for this was the office of the principall seruant , to gyue euery man his diet : he was not Vpon 24. Math. appointed to be lord off others .

As for his exception against my other example / of equalitie off brethren : the inequalitie which the scripture maketh betwene the elder brother , and the rest , is nothing les then any rule / or autoritie to commaund them : but onely a reuerence which the younger owght to beare to the elder / which we willingly graunt amongest the ministery / that the younger men gyue place to the gray heares off the elder . Thother preeminence off hauing two partes off the goodes , wheroff the younger brethren had but one / is no matter off inequalitie in autoritie / wherof onely we speake : wherin also we will not deny / but one minister according to his charge off children / may haue greater portion then other . And both these exceptions are not taken against my allegation so muche / as against the godly writers off our tyme . Which to proue the equalitie of autoritie off the bishop off Rome / with other bishops : haue alledged that they called one an other brethren , that they were fellow seruantes .

Dominion here forbidden ( saith the Ans. ) is not of one minister ouer an other , but ouer the people : wherin he is greatly deceiued . For our Sau. Christ speaking to his 12. disciples according to S. Math. saith whosoeuer shall be great amongest yow , shall be yowr minister , and whosoeuer amongest yow shall be fyrst , shall be yowr seruant : restreining their seruice off ech off them / vnto the residue off their fellowes . Againe the circumstance in S. Math. and Marck / that the other ten disdained at the two brethren , and which S. Luke expresseth / that the contention was amongest the 12. which off them might seeme to be greatest : do manifestly ouerthrow that saying . For if they had not desired to be aboue the residue off their fellowes : there had bene no cawse off disdaigne . And the strife was not / what gouernment they should vse ouer the people : but which amongest them selues should be greatest . Wherupon onles we will say / that our Saui. Christ laied his plaister beside the sore / and spake from the pourpose off that the cawse required : yt must be confessed / that this domynion forbidden / is in respect off one minister ouer an other .

Whereby him that sitteth at the table , he would haue the people vnderstanded : he is grosly ouerseen . for so by the testimony off our S. Christ / the people should be greater then he him self : seing he affirmeth / that he which sitteth is greater then he which waiteth . For noting the dignitie off a minister / by that vsually annexed vnto maisters / to sit at the table while their seruantes wait : he teacheth that forsomuch as he their maister / to whom it apperteined to sit / and be waited vpon / was vnto them rather as a seruant waiting / then a maister sitting at the table : much more they being fellowes / should serue one an other . Where yow charge me for not truly translating the greeke word : I appele to the maisters 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . off that toung / whether I haue followed the naturall etimol●gie . Where yow ad that it signifieth the cheif ruler , or guide in euery busines : I acknowledge yow for no Lexicon / and being in controuersie / it owght to haue bene proued . Stephen doth affirme that In this Thesau . they which translate it a prince , haue no ground that he can tell off . What cheifty S. Peter had amongest theresidue off the Apostles / shal be considered in a more fit place : it shall be sufficient here to haue noted / that the Ans. exposition off the word / first is the same with Hardinges : and my exposition which he here confuteth / alone with the bishops which he confirmeth by good argumentes / where he denieth that S. Peter was Prince of the Artic 4. diuis. 31. Apostles / or Lord ouer them / or had power / or dominion ouer them . Then it ouerthroweth Musculus . For where he saith that Peter was found in many places to haue bene cheif amongest the rest : the D. by this exposition / maketh him cheif symply in all places . Thus it may appeare / that yowr cawse findeth small harting at Musc. hand .

Yow say my exposition is contrary to the truth , and iudgement off the learned : but yow shew onely that it agreeth not with certein Diuis. 4. pag. 69. interpreters iudgement / that the truth is otherwise / yow shew not . If yow had shewed the fyrst / that it is contrary to the truth : the second had bene needles . I propounded that doubtfully / and although that signification of the preposition hath good warrant owt of the vse off that toung : yet I will not stand at the armes and / with so learned interpreters for it . Howbeit when I gyue place / yet S. Luke may not gyue back : who vsing the simple verbes withowt the preposition / maketh manifest that there is no peruersenes / or deformitie off gouernment noted . for if he shoulde meane to set forth a peruersenes / or deformitie off gouernement / and hauing so many wordes to doo it with / yet did not : I can not see how he should haue bene voide off some fault . Where yow say he must be expounded by thother Euangelistes : that can by no meanes be admitted . For it commeth often to passe in the greek toung / that compound verbes are put for simples : but that simples haue a compound signification / the vse off that toung will not suffer . For the vse off the word in the Actes , and S. Peter : beside that it is not straunge for one word in scripture / to be taken diuersly : that place maketh nothing to proue this signification . For what word soeuer S. Luke had vsed in the Actes : yet forsomuch as that action came from those vncleane spirites / it must needes be disordered . Therfore the peruersenes off it / doth not appeare in the word / but in the subiect from whence it came .

And if a man would make that word to signifie a deformitie / becawse that rule was beyond measure : by the same reason the wordes Prince / Rule / Power / names off lawfull autoritie / should be condemned : For that a scribed vnto Deuills / Ioh. 14. 30. 6. Ephes. 12. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . they are allwaies tyrannicall . And Beza also here alledged / in that place saith / the word noteth not any dominion there , but onely that they gat the vpper hand of those exorcistes : which when it may be taken aswell in good part / as in the euill : the Answ. can by no meanes help hym selfe therewith . For that off Saint Peter / where he saith it is manifest that it signifieth violent dominion : I graunt that that rule which it signifieth / is violent in a Pastor / but that which is violent in him ouer his flock / is moderate / and lawful in a Prince ouer his subiectes . and so S. Peter kept the same distinction off gouernement off the ciuill Magistrate / and the Minister / which he had learned off our Sauiour Christ . For if he ment by that word / a dominion simply tirannicall : he would haue opposed yt vnto a moderate dominion / not as he did vnto being an example off the flock . As if he should say / yow must not beare dominion ouer yowr flockes as Princes / which with diuers notes of their magnificence get autoritie ouer their subiectes : but yow not hauing thes meanes / to get reuerence and autoritie amongest yowr flockes / must so much the more enforce yowr selues / to all commendable example off life .

Wherunto agreeth that which Saint Paul writeth vnto Timothe : whom he exhorteth to kepe vp his autoritie in the 1. Tim. 4. 12. churche / and deliuer him self from contempt which his yowth was subiect vnto / by being a patron off good worckes vnto his churche . And Beza in that place / saying by those wordes care , and no kingdome ys commytted vnto Mynisters , and that by that place yt appeareth , that Pastors may not beare rule ouer their flockes , after the manner off kinges : doth sufficiently declare / that the word doth not signifie simply a tirannicall dominion / but one such as agreing vnto kinges / is notwithstanding vnfitting for Pastors . For he saith kingdome / and Kinges : not Tyrannie / nor Tyrantes / which he owght to haue saied / if he would haue confirmed yowr interpretation . Beside that Stephen putteth both the simple / and compound to In his Thes. signifie one thing : that is / a simple dominion withowt any suche taile off tyrannie / as is here imagined .

Yow may deny if yow will that the snow is white . By ( all thes places ) must needes be vnderstanded those which Musc. off whom yow speake / doth interprete : but yowr self had sayed In 1. diui. off this chap. before / that he expoundeth those three off S. Math. Marck / and Luke : therfore although yow added not three , yet that muste needes be vnderstanded . And in this yowr shift yow breake yowr grammers head : seing Aristotle teacheth that the numbre of three , is the least numbre that this word all can be verifyed off . Lib. 1. de coelo 1. c. Where yow saied Christ did not say no man shall be great amongest them : my answer was that he had saied that before , and needed not to repete it , wherunto yow answer nothing . The place I alledged owt of S. Luke / ouerthroweth yowr answer . For if by thes wordes whosoeuer will be great , desire off dominion had bene onely found fault with : then he would not haue spoken simply / whosoeuer amongest yow , withowt adding any thing off ambition / or desire to rule : and to this yow answer nothing / but couer yowr self onely with Musc. autoritie . For where yow say / yow spake as the wordes be ▪ yow vnderstand well that they doo not specifie any ambition / which yow must needes meane / or els yow mainteine not yowr answer . Where yow say , S. Lukes wordes make against me , as which insinuate that there must be some great amongest them : yow take it otherwise then it is . For if yow will not admit the interpretacion I alledged / in referring this greatnes vnto excellency of gyftes one aboue an other : nor Cal. interpretation sauoreth not in yowr tast , that it is as much as if our Sauiour should say , yowr greatnes , excellency , and dignitie shal be , in submitting yowr selues vnto yow brethren : yet yow will not refuse Bucer / whom yow here build vpon . which by great in this place / vnderstandeth him that is elder in age : and proueth it by the word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 younger , opposed to him . And it is not vnlike but one of those reasons / wherby some off those disciples would haue grounded their principalitie ouer other their fellowes / was for that they were auncienter in yeares . Which soeuer of thes expositions yow admit : yow see that to be great here / signifieth nothing les / then any dominion off one minister ouer another .

First the Ans. saith / that I goe about to proue that our Sauiour Diuis . 5. Pag. 70. Christ doth not reproue th ambition off his disciples : which is a manifest vntruth . For I say that he doth reproue it / and gyue also larger place to the reproofe off their ambition / then he . for where he would haue it to consist onely in that they ambitiously desired to rule ouer their fellowes : I affirme that he did not onely take them vp for that / but also that they desired to rule one ouer an other / which was not lawfull . Secondly he saith / I haue falsified his wordes , in that I father off him that our Sauiour reprehended onely th ambition of his disciples . which I doo not / for my wordes ascribe vnto him that he saied / they were reproued not onely for desire off rule / but for rule to oppresse . Then to maintein this quarrell / he affirmeth he saied / our Sauiour reproueth the tirannicall rule off kinges off the Gentills : as thowgh that made any thing to proue / that he did in his disciples onely reproue ambition . For reproofe of oppression in kinges : was not part off reprehension off the disciples .

Moreouer he coulde not be ignorant by the course off disputation / that when I saied / yf ambition onely were reprehended in the disciples : I ment that , if our S. Christ had forbidden his disciples ambitious desyre off rule one ouer an other , and not rule it self : which doth manifestly towch the cawse . Thus partly with a manifest vntruth / partly with a trifling cauil / which ( if it were true ) maketh nether whoat / nor kold : it seemeth he would haue cast a mist before his readers eies / that he should not see him giue the slip from my first argument in this diuis . For vnto this reason / that in that sense off the place which he setteth downe , the answer off our Sauiour Christ shoulde not haue benefit : considering the Disciples might haue replied , that he forbad tyrannicall rule of their inferiours , but they desyred moderate , and well ruled gouernement : he answereth not a word . To his answer vnto the second reason / that they are called bountifull , which haue no sparck of bountifulnes : I replie that althowgh that may sometimes come to passe / yet it shoulde haue bene owt of time / to haue made mention of it here in that sense . For if as yow say / our Sauiour speake here against the tirannie , and ambition of Princes : then it was owt off place to make mention off the flatterie off their subiectes / which call them by the title off bountifull . For that is rather the fault off the subiectes / then off the Princes . If yow say that they desire that title : first the wordes off S. Luke doo not beare it owt : for he saith they are called gratious Lordes / and not they desire to be so called . Then it being a thing not simply vnlawfull / for a Prince to desire to be called / and counted bountifull / to this end that by that fame men might be more seruiceable : althowgh it should be graunted to yow / that S. Luke ment that they desire that title : yet forasmuch as there is no staine off ambition / or tirannie in that desire / yow are still behinde with yowr answer .

For yowr example off the Pope called most holiest , &c. yt is nothing like . For men deceiued by error / call hym so : and althowgh they say vntruly / yet they speake as they thinck / which can not be in this case , considering that no man can be abused by a false opinion off his bountifulnes / which not onely giueth not / but is an oppressor . And although as there are found which knowing the wickednes off the Pope / call him notwithstanding most holy : so there be which knowing the illiberalitie off their Princes / call them notwithstanding bountifull : yet yow should haue considered / that S. Luke speaketh not here / how Princes are called off certein particular persons : but by what titles they are called generally / of all their subiectes . So that if yow would haue spokê to pourpose / yow should haue shewed / that it is a commen thing for tyrantes / to be called generally of their subiectes whom they pill / bountifull : and that which is harder for yow to doo / that men will call ministers bountifull / which giue nothing . Otherwise the interpretation which yow imagine / hath no place .

To my third reason / that it is not to be thowght off all the Apostles , that they desyred rule one ouer another , to the end they might vse crueltie , and oppression ouer their fellowes : he answereth not a word . It may be as I haue shewed / gathered off the scripture / which is not expressed in it : els how take yow vpon yow to set downe / that the 10. were as ambitious in disdayning , as the 2. were in desiring , seing that is not expressed ? If I be deceiued , in thincking that those greek wordes be all one : I am deceiued with the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Hesychius . Grecians / for so I haue red . And if yowr autoritie were any in this case / yet it is suspected : and therfore needed better proof / then yowr bare word . and albeit it were true / that the one hath sometime a more larger vse , then the other : yet hereit appeareth / that the indignation off these Apostles was such / as Aristotle defineth thother word by : that is / conceiued off an opinion they had , that those 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . two were not worthy to rule ouer them .

The wordes off our Sauiour Christ in the 20. of S. Math. &c. are spoken vnto the 12. onely / whom he had set apart for the Chap. 24 Diuis . 1. Pag. 72. ministerie off the gospell : but his wordes S. Math. 23. are spoken not onely vnto them / but vnto the commen people . Wheruppon it followeth / that our Sauiour ioining the people with his disciples / in the dehortations which he maketh here : could not as in the other place / where he speaketh vnto them alone / speake off the proper listes / and boundes of the ministerie : and therfore there is no cause why M. shoulde be glad , that I agree with hym in the exposition off Math. 23. Further / Math. 20. making comparison betwene the 12. disciples / and Princes : here so far as towcheth the disciples / he maketh comparison betwene them / and other ecclesiasticall ministers . There being therfore thinges in the state off a commendable Prince / which agree not vnto the ministery of the gospell : it followeth that he may be well thowght / there not onely to haue forbidden the disciples ambition / damnable in bothe estates : but also those thinges / which being commendable in Princes / agree not vnto them . Off the other side / all thinges commendable in the Pharises ministrie Ecclesiasticall / agreing likewise to theirs : it followeth of necessitie / that there he must needes speake against ambition onely . Vnto the next diuis . being reproches / I answer not : onely where he chargeth me with falsehood , becawse I affirme he saith / the booke off commen praier is a perfect rule to gouerne the churche off England by / where nothing is wanting / or to much : I answer that there be not the same wordes / but when there is nothing he will acknowledge to be off the order of the booke / which he mainteineth not / and refuseth to haue added thinges which haue their ground off the word : I leaue to the reader to iudge / whether although my wordes are with the fullest / yet I am far from his meaning .

Now I returne againe to his 8 Tract. The Ans. skoffing vppon my vnskilfulnes in logicke / saith he can finde nether head , nor foot Diuis. 7. pag 303. in my reason . Thus I will finde both . They which deny the lawfulnes of Iohns ministrie / because there was no suche ministerie conteined in the scriptures / thowght no ministerie lawfull / not conteined in them : but the Scribes / and Leuites did so : therfore they esteemed no ministerie lawfull / not conteined in scripture . Against this he taketh exception / first to the translation / which is altogether frivolus . for beside that both the wordes may beare that signikication / and it is not vnlike but by the article / the Euangelist ment not some one singular Prophet / spoken of in the law beside the Messias / but rather any Prophet extraordinary / to whom the Lord shewed him self / ether by vision / or dreame : Nom. 12. 6. the interpretation which he citeth owt of Beza / altereth not the argument / but rather strenghtheneth it / noting therby that it was necessary not onely to haue the function off a Prophet : but off one which was especially noted / and marked owt by the scripture . Secondly where he saith / that if they had asked Iohn whether he had bene a Prophet , he would not haue denied it , and addeth for proofe theroff / our Sauiour Christ saied he was one : he is abused . for our Sauiour saying that he was greater then a prophet , and that the Math. 11. ● . 13. Prophetes endured vntill Iohns comming , denieth that he was a Prophet / and maketh his ministerie a meane function betwene the function of a Prophet / and ministerie off the gospell : more excellent then the first / and inferior to the other . If he would haue had a coulor off his defense / he should rather haue cited his fathers saying of him / which calleth him the Prophet of the highest : 1. Luk. 76. but that could not haue serued the turne nether / For that the worde is there taken generally / for those which teach the will off God : which is often as hath bene shewed .

Yowr third exception / that all the functions are not reckened vpp , becawse they aske him not whether he was a Priest , or Leuite : is as vaine as the rest for therfore they aske him not / becawse he tawght not being consecrated vnto any of them / according to the ecclesiasticall order prouided in that behalf : and that was one occasion off this embassadge vnto Iohn . Last off all / where in the margent he saith / that the Pharises made false argumentes , and that I doo the same : he speaketh vnaduisedly . for howsoeuer there was otherwise great ignorance in them : yet that their reason was good herin / it appeareth by that S. Iohn to proue his ministerie lawfull / browght testimonie theroff owt off the scripture : and for that our 1. Ioh. 23. Mat. 21. 25 Sauiour Christ / meaning to confirme the ministerie off Iohn / asketh whether it were from heauen / or off men . In which wordes condemning all ministeries which men institute / and that come not from heauen : he confirmeth the Parises argument / which was that Iohn exercising a mynisterie not ordeined by the law / should haue bene gilty of breach of the law / if he could not haue shewed some extraordinarie vocation . Thus appeareth that there was both bead , and foot in this argument : and that by all likelyhood true / which he could not impugne but by vntruth . The 8. and 9. diuis . which follow / haue ( as commonly the rest ) nothing but bare sayinges : which becawse I shall meet withall againe / I will heere passe ouer ▪ onely in the eight yt ys to be noted / that he saith it is seruile to tie the church off Christ to the patrone off the Iewes Synagoge . Wherin ether he saith nothing / or he would haue vnderstanded more / then he dare veter . For if he meane that the church of Christ may not be in all ordinances / and ceremonies conformable to that off the Iewes : it maketh nothing to the pourpose . but if he meane that the church hath now more libertie in adding ministeries / then the Iewes had / as his answer to that I set downe doth require : then I see no cawse why he should not haue so saied . But that although he would say / yet he durst not : and therfore spa●● thus vncertenly / that when I should shew the contrary : he in this generall speach / might haue some corner to hide him in .

Seing I must needes proue that the crow is blacke / that is Diuis 10. pag. 304. to say / th archbishoprick a new ministerie / thus yt is proued . That which hath diuers efficient cawses / is an other / and diuers : but there are diuers efficient cawses off the ministerie off th archbishop / and those expressed in the word off God . That there are diuers efficient cawses / is manifest : for that the office off Bishop / Elder / and Deacon being by God him self / the office off th archbishop / was deuised / and browght in by man . And although this be proof enough / to them that haue their senses exercised in the holy scripture / where in the ministerie oftentimes they are called straungers / which haue not their offices limited by the Nomb. 18 4. prescript off Gods word : yet that it may appeare how litle modestie there is in this strong deniall / I will ad others . Wheras a Bishop may be ordeined by two / or three other Bishops : th archbishop must be ordeined by all the Bishops off the prouince / ether present / or at the least consenting . Now seing the ordination is off the forme off their ministerie / and thes formall causes be diuers : yt followeth that thes offices must needes be diuers . And that the substantiall / and essentiall forme of a Bishop / is differente from that off th archbishop / yt is plaine also by that they are members off one diuision / and therfore off necessitie differ in the substantiall forme : as a man differeth from a brute beast / not in circumstance / but in that he is off an other nature . And when the D. graunteth the effectes / and worckes off th archbishop / to be diuers from those off the Bishop / the one ruling / thother obeing / and that by oth gyuen and taken : it seemeth very straunge / that he should deny that it is a new / and diuers office from those appointed in the scripture .

Furthermore / when as the subiectes off the Bishop / and Archbishop be diuers / where about they be occupied / the one hauing one church / or to speake according to his sense / one Diocese / thother a whole prouince : still it must fall owt / that they are diuers offices . Last off all / forasmuch as offices in the scripture / are perpetuall / and th office off an Archbishop may be taken away by men ( by his owne confession ) : yt must follow / that they be diuers offices . And if he looke when I should conclude a new minis●●●e : beside that yt is all new which is straunge / and straunge which is not commaunded by the word of God : yt comming as shall appeare some hundreth yeares after the Apostles times / whose onely autoritie is able to make the grey heares / and antiquitie of a thing be reuerenced : it followeth that this word new / if . he nourish any misterie in it / is also truly verified of the ministerie of th archbishop .

Timothe , and Tite , shall neuer be proued to haue had any such autoritie ouer the rest / and if they had / yet yt falleth not on th archbishops side : seing they were no Bishops / but Euangelistes / as hath appeared . When the church appointed one Bishop to rule ouer all Ministers , Elders , and Deacons in the same church : yt did appoint a new ministerie . and all thes reasons almost / before browght against the newnes off th archbishops functions / returne vpon the head of that institution . And if there be any hould in the Ans. word / he hath otherwhere affirmed / that th office off a Bishop is superior vnto the office off a Pastor . yf so / it is not the same . But why dare not the D. pag. 137. aswell confesse / that the church may erect a new mynisterie ? seing he affirmeth flatly as much in effect , for to proue an Archbishop / he alledgeth / that beside those in the scripture / the church may appoint both names / and offices . now I would gladly know / first whether when the church appointeth an office / that was neuer before a new office / or no ? and then whether a new office be a new mynysterye ? And yff to erect vpp an office which was neuer / be to erect a new office / and a new office be a new mynysterie : it must follow that the churche in erecting an other office / then is set forth in scripture / erecteth a new ministerie . The Ans. is afraied to confesse a new ministerie / and not afraied to confesse a new office : off which superstition I would gladly vnderstand some reason . Now where he would haue the care off our Sauiour ouer his church in time off the gospel , to consist in that he hath set downe the doctrine more plainly in all poinctes , then vnder the law : this being a doctrine off saluacion vnder the law / that there should be ministers in the church : yt followeth by his owne saying / that he hath set yt downe more plainly in all pointes now / then vnder the law . Therfore also this point / how many orders / and degrees off ministerie owght to be / considering that that was precisely defined in the law / is more narrowly bounded in the gospel . Thus he defending more in deed / then in wordes he dare set downe : is almost at continuall battaile with himself / and hath scarce at any tyme his proofes / and propositions of one measure .

But that I follow not the chase off wordes / leauing his meaning / where 〈◊〉 any light footing of it to be found : that which he would say / and wherwith his pourpose is vpholden / can not stand : that albeit our Sauiour hath tawght the doctrine more plainly now , then vnder the lawe : yet it followeth not that he hath performed that in the gouernement off the church . If this be his meaning as I saied / there is great iniurie doon vnto the church / great dishonor vnto our Sauiour Christ . For he hauing at all tymes doon the office / not onely off a Doctor in teaching / but also off a king in prescribing the manner / and forme off gouernement vnto yt : howmuch soeuer he is saied to haue doon lesse / in appointing the outward gouernement off his church now / then vnder the law : so muche is both he robbed off that part off his kingly office / which God his heauenly Father annointed hym vnto / and the church spoiled of the fruict which should come vnto her therby . Yt ys therfore a most certein doctrine / that in all thinges perteining to the kingdom of heauen / whether in matter off doctrine / or gouernment / the Lord hath in as great specialtie marcked them owt / as ether before / or vnder the law . In cyuill matters / and thinges perteining to this present life / he hath I graunt vsed a greater particularytie with them / then amongest vs / framing lawes according to the qualitie of that people / and coontrey : wherin the leauing of vs at greater libertie / ys so far from prouing the like libertie in thinges perteining to the kingdom off heauen / that they rather proue a streighter bond . For euen as when the Lord would haue his fauour more appeare by temporall blessinges off this life towardes the people vnder the law / then towardes vs / he gaue also polityke lawes most exactly / wherby they might both most easely come into / and most stedfastly remaine in possessyon off those earthly benfites : euen so at this tyme / wherin he would not haue his fauour so much esteemed by those owtward commodities / is required that as his care in prescribing lawes for that pourpose / hath somewhat fallen in leauing them to mennes consultations / which may be deceiued : so his care for conduit / and gouernement of the life to come / should ( if it were possible ) rise / in leauing lesse to the order off men / then in times past .

And the D. should ether haue cut off quite / that part off the Kingly office off Christ / which consisteth in owtward gouernement off his church : or els haue let yt had the full course . Now when he graunteth that beside the doctrine off saluacion / he entred into the description off outward gouernement off the church ( saying beside the doctrine he ordeined there should be not onely fit ministers to publish it , but officers to gouerne the people in godlines ) as if in beginning off that description he declared his care ouer his church / and not ●● making an end off it : he signifieth that he declared lesse care . For if to describe the three offices of gouernement / Bishop / Deacon / and Elder / were an argument off his loue / and care towardes his church : had not also the adding to off the fourth ( yf any were ) bene a token off the same ? But if as the Ans. would make vs belieue / the Lord declared his great care , and loue more towardes his church , in leauing that office at her arbitrement : then yt should also follow / that in appointing no more but the Deacon / and Elder which gouerneth onely / yea in appointing no officer at all / he should haue shewed him self more carefull / and louing . Which if yt be absurd : that he saith wherof this followeth / is not to be admitted .

Againe wheras he graunteth that our Sauiour Christ hath gone throwgh with the doctrine : I would ask off him why in that point he hath made so cleane worck ? Whatsoeuer he answer here / and what cawses soeuer he assigne : he can not deny but one cawse is / the blindnes of men to see / and their peruersnes of iudgement in thinges perteining to the kingdom off heauen . Which if it be true : then I would gladly know off him / how they come to be so egleeyed / in the matter off discipline / and gouernement / which are such bussardes in the sight off the doctrine ? and how their eyes be opened here / which were shut there ? As if we were in lesse perill off error / in inuenting the Discipline off the church : then we should haue bene in deuising the doctrine . or as thowgh it were an easier matter / to finde a rule wherby the whole church ioyntly , then wherby euery one in his seuerall / might be directed .

And if part of this gouernement / and order being propounded / part also is left owt : why rather were not the greater offices / and off more weight expressed / leauing the smaller to the stamp off mans head ? for who knoweth not but it is harder / to institute a ministerie for the gouernement off a whole prouince / then for a companie comprised within the territoire of a furlong ? to institute a ministerie for gouernment / and commandement of both people / and Bishops too / then for the people onely ? So that off the twoo vertues required in all sufficient dispensation / faithfulnes / and wisdome / and which were both most fully in our S. Christ : by the Ans. account / there was nether . For in that he is made to haue described some part off the gouernement / and not all : he is argued of vnfaithfulnes . in that he is made to haue propounded the les / and easier / leauing owt greater / and more difficult : his wisdome is reproched .

Nether may the D. thinck here to escape / with the distinction in 4. diu . off this chap. off externall thinges variable by circumstances / which els where he alledgeth . For first I haue shewed that yt is most vntrue / that all externall thinges be variable . Then he must remember / that he making his Archbishops office to begin in the Apostles tymes / hath drawen owt his continuance vnto this tyme : all which he hath ( as he yet doth ) accounted off him as a head piller of the church off God . Now if he be such a profitable officer / both in the purest tyme off the church / and the corrupt , both in persequution / and peace / vnder a Christian Magistrate / and vnder a Tyrant : yt is cleare that this ys an office not variable by circumstance off times / but which our Sauiour Christ / and his Apostles might haue aswell established in perpetuitie / as he did any off those vnchangeable ministeries / Bishops / Deacons / &c.

In calling yt a seruile tie , to haue the whole gouernement at the prescript off Gods word : he forgetteth that the greatest libertie / and freedom off Christians is / to serue the Lord according to his reuealed will / and in all thinges to hang vppon his mouth . But that he addeth ( yt ys to be tied vnto the lettre , as in the law ) fyrst is Papisticall / and Anabaptisticall : proceeding from a grosse ouersight / and want of vnderstanding off the Apostles meaning / when he speaketh of the lettre of the law . For wheras the Apostle setteth agaynst the lettre of the law / that is to say / the bare commaundement Rom. 7. 6 doo this , &c. the worcking off the spirit gyuen by promesse / wherby the law in part is obteined off vs / and made healthfull which otherwise bringeth death : the Answ. with the Papistes / and Anabaptistes / opposeth the lettre vnto that not written / nor commaunded in scripture . When in that sense which he taketh lettre ( if there were any such ) we are as streightly / and precisely bound vnto the lettre / as euer were the Iewes .

The examples brought as exceptions / against the certein / and commaunded mynisterie / are such for the most part / as might seem to haue bene brought / to set the D. cawse in the mockerie and lawghter of all men . For yt is well knowen / that the name off a Scribe : was no name off any certein order , and particular kinde off ministerie : but a generall name gyuen vnto the skilfull in the law of God . For although we read of some to whom yt ys gyuen / which beside the ordinary function wrote something : yet yt may be easely 1. Chron. 24. 6. shewed / that they had that name not off writing / but rather becawse they were expert in the law off God written . Which as yt may be proued by diuers autorities off the scripture : so yt doth by Math. 13. 52. the autoritie off our Sauiour Christ manifestly appeare . And when our Sauiour speaking off the tymes of the gospell / saith he will send Scribes , and yet neuer heard tell off that there was any certein order / or particular function off Scribes vnder the gospell : Math. 23. 34. yt ys cleare that vnder title off Scribe / there was neuer vnderstanded any seuerall degree off ministerie . The same is to be aswered vnto the name of Doctor of law : that yt was a generall name where with they were named / which were learned / or taken for learned in the law of God . Which may appeare for that whom S. Math. calleth a a lawier / or Doctor of the law / S. Marck 22. 35. 12. 28. calleth a Scribe .

To change the Capitain off the Temple into an Ecclesiasticall officer , needeth a very strong exorcisme . The Temple of Ierusalem being the strongest place in the whole citie / and by reason off the height commaunding the whole cytie round about / was by all likelihood taken of the Romans to be their fort / or Cytadell . Considering that Herod had also builded a fort there / called Antonia : where Calu. vp 4. Act. they placing their garrisons / did the easelier / and with greater securitie / holde the Iewes in that bondage / which they sought at euery occasion to shake off . Herunto leade the prophane mindes of the Romans / which beside the safetie they sowght that waies / tooke pleasure also in prophaning the temple off the Lord : ad also the practise off our daies / which may serue for confirmacion herof . But howsoeuer the matter be / this appeareth plainly / that that office was not ecclesiasticall / but both a cyuill / and warlike function . For when S. Iohn beside the seruantes off the Scribes / 28. Iohn 3 and high priestes / maketh mention off a band off men : yt may appeare that as the seruantes / and ministers belonged vnto the high Priestes / and Scribes : so the band belonged vnto those Capitaines off the temple / and that they were there as those which had the charge off the band .

The same may yet appeare further / by that where he laying hould off certein off the Apostles / put them in prison : after they 4. Act. 1. came owt they confirmed them selues against their threates / by that the fame thing was happened vnto them / which was propheceyed of by Dauid / and wheroff our Sauiour had experience : in that both Iewes / and Gentils / and both powers cyuill / and ecclesiasticall rose vp against him . Wherby it is cleare / they had regard to the owtrage which they suffred / both off the Priestes / and Scribes Iewes : and of the Capitain off the temple a Gentill . As for the cheif of the Sinagoge : they are the same which be called Elders / and Ancients off the church in reformed churches / wheroff in euery Synagoge / and assemblie off the Iewes / there was some nombre ( as shall in place appeare ) called cheif / not for that they had ouer the mynisters / but becawse they had the gouernement off the people . Whether the Seniors off the people , were before the restoring off the captiuitie of Babylon , shall appeare in place not to be much materiall .

Yt is a certein reason which is drawen from the figures / to Diuis. 11. &c. pag. 305. &c. 7. Act 44 Heb. 8. 5. the thinges figured / in this sort . for if they were not like vnto them they shadow forth : they should be no figures . I apply not particularly the partes of the Arck / to the partes of the church : but compare generally the building off the one / with the other . Which point also . S. Stephen / and the Apostle to the Hebrues doo likewise presse . Therfore th alledging off Caluin / against th application off euery part thereof vnto the church / is ydle . The exceptions are to small pourpose . For when I ask what : I deny not but some thinges might haue bene left . for if he had would he might haue knowen / that as the Lord aduanced his glory towardes his church / and approched vnto men by knowledge of him selff : so he did more precisely / and particularly set forth all thinges / perteining to the church / and gouernement therof : and that therfore vnder the gospell / wherin he hath opened the threasures of knowledge / yt must follow that he left thinges more cleare / and certein then before . Yet I will towch the vanitie off his exceptions .

For pinnes , and nailes : I would ask him how he can make a cofer without them / especially for the water . And therfore if he had prepared bordes / &c. and not set them together / I thinck he had not obeied the voice of God . and it is asmuch as if he should say / that he was not bidden to take a nedle into his hande / which is bidden to sew . Whether the windowes were off glasse , or Christall made not to pourpose : so that they gaue a cleare light ( which the word Moses vseth signified ) it was enough . Howsoeuer yow were misled by certein expositours / the couer mentioned Gen. 8. Gen. 6. cap. 16. is cmmaunded in the making off the Ark / where the Lord also prescribeth yt should be a cubit aboue the Ark : very fit to shut the waters / that they should not fall continually vpon the Ark. The ouerseer , and maister off this work , coulde be no other then Noa : at whose prescript yt was to be doon / and which was to answer if any thing had bene doon otherwise then the commaundement . The Rauen , and doue sent forth , were not thinges belonging to the building off the Ark : and yet as meat / and drink they are commaunded him / forsomuch as they perteined to preseruation off his life / which the Lord had gyuen him in charge .

That out of Pellicane , and againe and againe out off Caluin , are such as graunted / conclude not against this cawse . That the learned writers say , God charged the Iewes with ceremonies of his owne , that they should haue no leysure to vse any other : they neuer vse it to proue that there is more libertie to the churche now / then in times past / to deuise any thing : but it is their buckler which they hold owt against the Papistes / who by example of that church / would lode this now with such a multitude off ceremonies . Therfore hem doth not in this allegorie follow their autoritie : but rather clean contrary / walketh herin in the Papistes steppes . Which where they are pressed / by this so diligent prescript off all thinges by the word of God in the ould people : answere as the D. that that was doon for the rudenes off that people / and because they were but children / and that it were iniurie to the church off Christ / to shut her vp so short as that was . Where he concludeth of them / that there was onely expressed what should be doon in the worship off God , and not in externall policie : first there be no such wordes wheruppon he may pull in that ( and not in the external policie ) . And in deed it is not to distinguish / but to pull in peeces . for what whorship off God can there be in the assemblies of Christian men / withowt the ministerie of the word / withowt externall policie / withowt administration of Sacramentes / without praying openly / and with owtward sound ? all which are externall . When Caluin calleth yt spirituall worship , his meaning is nothingles / then to oppose spirituall to all externall / doon with mouth / and other partee of the body : but he calleth it spirituall / by comparison off the worship of God vnder the law / which consisted in corporall washinges / cleansinges apparell / &c. and this is that which ether abuseth him : or wherwith he would abuse other .

And although no singular partes off the Tabernacle / or Temple themselues should set forth vnto vs / the externall policie of the churches : yet when not onely they be described / but yt is prescribed how many kinde of officers there should be / and what euery one should doo : that might suffise to proue / that if he will needes separate the worship off God / from th externall policie : yet as the Lord set forth the one / so he left nothing vndescribed in the other . Towching the alteration made by Salomon , and Dauid in sorting the Ministers off the Temple , and other thinges ( an other of the Papistes reasons / to proue that they may ordein thinges / beside the 1. Chron. 24. 19. 2. Chron. 29. 25. prescript off the word ) : yt is answered in the same chap. the Ans. alledgeth / where yt is saied / that all that was doon by commaundement of God . And in an other place is set forth / that those were instituted by commaundement of Dauid / which had commaundement off God / browght by the handes off Gad the seer / and of Nathan the Prophet . But seing the Ans. will not accord with me in this point / of appointing thinges vnder the law : let him at least beare him self speak in his former booke . God in the ould law , Pag. ●●● . prescribed vnto his people perfect , and absolute lawes , not onely morall , and iudiciall , but ceremoniall : nether was there the least thing to be doon in the church , omitted in the law . Let him shew how this will agree with that here in the tenth / and 13. diuis . I haue shewed that it is one thing to be conteined / an other to be expressed in scripture . Therfore if yowr cawse haue no better hould then that : it must goe to the ground .

I haue shewed how this answer / of leauing thinges to the order Diuis . 14. Pag. 307. off the church , varied by circumstance , &c. can not stand in the Archbishops case / nor ordinary gouernement of the church . The argument is not off lykes , or payres , but of the smaller vnto the great . And although it should be true / that yow say / that the Lord loued the church then aswell as he doth now : yet the reason is still of the les vnto the great . For yf he did so particularly describe the offices / not of Math. 11. 11. 2. Cor. 3. such excellencie / and weight as the offices / and mynisteries of the gospell : yt must follow / that he hath much more vsed that dyligence / in particular description of the mynisteries hereof . If the 4. off Iohn , meane that our Sauiour should tell all thinges necessary to saluation : then the Mynisterie with the degrees theroff / being necessary / and withowt the which the Lord doth not ordinarily gyue any saluacion at all / yt is cleare that he hath also declared all Rom. 10. 14. degrees thereoff . That owt off Sainct Iohn 20. is spoken of the miracles our Sauiour did / not off his doctrine : and is thrust in by strong handes in this place . The cheif amongest the rest off the Mynisters / I might well with S. Paul / call the pillers : and therfore if the Lord should haue made no mention off the Archbishops / they keping suche a place as they doo : yt is truly saide / that the pillers should haue bene forgotten . Yf the Magistrate were an officer of the church / and not of the commen wealth : there are many places in scripture both ould / and new / that describe his office / and all that perteineth to him at large . Wherof if the Ans. can bring but one for his Archbishop : this controuersie is at an end . Here be many ( we knowes ) wherof some are not indebate : and those which be / haue no causes annexed with them / wherby other might come to knowledge off them / as well as he . Yt is therfore enough to haue mentioned mine answer / without staying in confutation of all those thinges / which he at all aduentures throweth owt / to make vp an answer .

He saith it is daungerous to say , that the ministeries owght not to be Diuis. 15. pag 307. reteined , withowt which the church is fully builded : becawse the Magistrate is therby shut forth , as well as the Archbishop . Our question is / what ecclesiasticall ministeries are sufficient : the mention therfore off the ciuil Magistrate / is absurd . Also it is too great ether ouersight / or peruersenes / not to vnderstand that an vniuersall rule / is not to be racked to euery thing : but is true off those thinges / wheroff it is gyuen . Beside that / hereby at vnawares he confesseth / that the church may be fully builded , and accomplished withowt a Christian Magistrate : which is against that he saith / the magistrate is the head of the church . His exception ( that there is no perfection off vnitie off the church / by reason off good / and bad mingled ) first is nothing to this question : secondly yt is a quarell not against me / but S Paul whose wordes I vsed . Thirdly as the ministeries off the word Ephes. 4. 13. 1. Timot. 4. 16. are saide to saue / and bring vs to the kingdome off heauen / becawse they gyue both entrance / and aduancement therunto / although we come not to full possession off them / so long as we being in this life / need them still : so they are well saied / to bring vs to perfection of vnitie / because hauing begun to knit vs together here / they follow still with new increases / vntill we come to perfection in the life to come . As for that there must be offices , as well to preserue , and kepe the perfection off vnitie , as to build yt , and bring it therunto : beside that for shift off answer / he is driuen as yt were with one breath / to affirme that he denied before / off the perfection of vnitie : he must vnderstand / that the church is alwaies in building / as long at it is here vpon earth / and alwaies in knitting . Therfore if those offices be sufficent to build / and knit : they are perfectly sufficient . and if th archbishops office be to kepe the church builded / and knit yt is manifest we may spare him here / and that his seruice must then begin / when all other ministries take end . The next diuis hath for answer ( according to the D. coustome ) onely that which I preuenting answered afterwad : sauing that he addeth as an exception / that there be Apostles which there reckened / are notwithstanding by vs shut owt from the present estate off this church . as yf he vnderstood not that in the founding of the church / thes may be necessarie / which afterward are not : which also being intreated off in an other place / needeth not here to be repeated .

Yt is Calu. which reasoneth of the place of the Ephesians / that Diuis. 17. pag. 308. forsomuch as the Apostle saith / that the church is fully builded withowt a Pope : therfore there owght to be no Pope . and how slenderly soeuer he seemeth to the Ans. to haue reasoned : yet shall yt appeare by the vanitie of his exceptions against it / comming afterward to be discussed / that yt is weighty . But where he saith / albeit the argument be good against the Pope , yet yt ys not so against the archbishop : onles he can exempt hym by miracle / or teach vs some other Logick then hath hitherto bene heard off / the reason includeth him as well as the Pope . For if it be graunted that the Popes office is therfore vnprofitable to the church / becawse S. Paul made no mention off it in the ministeries requisite for the building theroff there being like wise no mention off the office off an Archbishop / yt must theruppon follow / that th archbishop also is vnprofitable . yf there be the same cawse : there must follow the same effect . The reason added / off the Pope doing thinges which th archbishop doth not , claiming thinges which th archbishop claimeth not , &c. hath no place at all . for the question is not off the abuse / and tyrannie off the Pope : but whether as it is vnprofitable that one should gouerne all the churches in the world / so yt be also that he should gouerne all in a whole prouince . And by the D. answer the office off Pastors should be vnlawfull / if they chalenge vnto them selues thinges vnlawfull : and the Popes office good / and lawfull / if he bearing rule ouer all churches / would absteine from those / and such like chalenges which the Ans. setteth downe . The contrary wheroff is true . For as the Pastors office can by no owtrage of him that exerciseth it / be made vnlawfull : so the vsage of dominion off one ouer all / be yt neuer so moderate / and qualified can neuer be lawfull . Last of all / the Archbishop him self / if he should chalenge those thinges in his prouince / which the Pope chalengeth ouer the world / should be by this reason as vnlawfull an officer as the Pope . Therfore this difference betwene the Archbishop / and Pope / being accidentall / and not towching the nature off the gouernement wheroff we haue to enquire / is vnstilfully alledged . Yet it is the hole wherunto the Ans. is compelled diuers times to haue his recourse . That the ministerie is a matter of saluacion / that th archbishop is a new ministerie / that it is absurd here to flie to th example off the Magistrate / where the question is what Ecclesiasticall offices are profitable : is before declared .

The Ans. conclusion off my replie / touching the place to the Ephes. is euill shut vp . For where he saith that th archbishoprick Diuis. 18. pag. 309. may stand , becawse that place reckening vp onely the ministeries of the word , that is a ministerie off order , and policie : how could he forget / that th archbishop medleth with the ministerie of the word ? and therfore it was necessarie to be here mentioned / if the Apostle had gyuen hym any place in the church . If he will say / that he hath not onely the mynisterie off the word / but off order also : the answer is at hand / that so had both the Apostles by his owne confession / and all the rest off those ministeries / as appeareth afterward . Whether therfore th archbishop be considered in his ministerie of the word / or as together with that he holdeth the raignes off gouernement / or as one of the most principall ministeries of the church : ether he hath his place here to the Ephes. or not a● all . For both all ministeries off the word ( to speak as the D. ) separate from gouernement / and order / and all occupied in the word / and gouernement ioyntly / and all principall ministeries of off the church / are here reckened vp . Euery one then off thes three cawses being sufficient / to haue made mention of th archbishop : all together put a necessitie vpon the Apostle to speake off him / if he had bene worth the speaking off .

Where he thincketh there was no cause to speake off him , for that he differeth not from a bishop in ministerie off the word , but in order , and gouernement onely , and that therfore yt is no diuers ministerie from the bishops office : by the same reason I may say / that S. Paul needed not to haue mentioned Pastors / &c. For the Pastors preached the word / as the Apostles . But yf this one difference alhough there were no moe / make the ministerie of Apostles / and pastors diuers / that th one hath charge off one onely church / thother off a●ry● must follow / that the ministerie off an archbishop is diuers from the bishops / th one watching ouer a whole prouince / thother ouer a diocese onely . Yea it is plaine off that spoken before off the Archbishops new ministerie / that there are as many / or moe thinges wherby he differeth from a bishop : then any of thes ministeries S. Paul reckeneth vp / differ one from an other . His answer to the place off the Corinth . consisteth in that he would proue / that the diuision off offices there , is perfect . Wherin it it easie to see what extremitie my reply ( which he calleth a vaine shift ) draue him vnto : and how he could not couer his nakednes here / but with discouering an other place as vnsemely as this . For amongest his answers to the place off the Ephes. wherby he would proue / that that diuision is not perfect / this was one in the latin pamphlet / that to the Corinth . S. Paul speaketh off Apostles , Prophetes , and Doctors , leauing owt Euangelistes , and Pastors : and now to auoide my replie to that answer / he saith / cleane contrarie / that the Apostle made there a perfect diuision of offices . But let vs see whether this chaunge be for the better .

Where he saith / Saint Paul did more perfectly deuide to the Corinth . then to the Ephes. he is deceiued . For euen by his owne confession / he speaking there of preaching offices onely / not off all offices off the church / and there being none other preaching offices / but those which he reckeneth vp : yt followeth that he made there a perfect diuision . In the place to the Corinth . that there is no perfect diuision / although the D. wordes he chaunged / yet his reason he vsed standeth still : that the Euangelist is not there mentioned , nor Pastor , which were offices in the church . Beside that he kepeth in this refutation his ould wont : which is to cut the knot / and not to lose yt . For he bringeth reasons of his to proue the perfection of the diuision / withowt answering mine . And yet his be such / as are vnwothy answer . For in the first / beside that yt is vntrue / that the Apostle made a perfect diuision of giftes in the church : if he had / yet it followeth not that he made the same in offices / especially when he wil needs separate offices from giftes . The second reason ( therfore yt is a perfect diuision , because there is added first , second , third ) is as simple as the first . for those wordes are not put there to note the nombre of offices / but to declare which is highest in degree / and which next / &c. and if they did : yet I neuer could yet read / that they were notes off a perfect diuision . His third ( because yt hath moe members then that in the Ephes● . ) I think he vnderstandeth by this tyme what strenght yt hath : if he remember that which I answered / that the Apostles meaning to the Eph. was / not to deuide the offices of the church in generall / but those onely which handle the word . onles par aduenture he thinck / that he maketh a fuller partition / which deuideth both the handes into eight fingers / then which denideth one into fiue . Martyrs autoritie doth not help him . For he saith not that he reckeneth all the partes of the church particularly / or how many it hath / which he should haue saide to help him : but onely that he reckeneth vp what members the church hath / which he doth that reherseth some .

Whether a bishop be conteined vnder a Pastor / or rather a Diuis . 19. Pag. 310. Pastor vnder a bishop : shall not now be the question . But yow are inconstant in all yowr waies / and haue one sentence standing / an other sitting . For albeit I should agree with yow / that a bishop is a Pastor : yet yow doo not agree with yowr self . For otherwere in stretching owt the Bishops armes / yow haue thes wordes : a bishop is both superior in office , and giftes vnto a Pastor . If he be so / he can not be conteined vnder him : for that which conteineth pag. 137. an other thing / hath at the least all in it self / which the conteined hath . Againe if I graunt a bishop conteined vnder the Pastor S. Paul speaketh of : yet I will not graunt that the bishop yow meane ( which hauing so many churches to rule / hath neuer a one where he doth the office off a bishop ) is conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor . For seing his foundacion is laied in Ieromes bishop / proued before / and after / not to be of the institution of God / but off man : yt can not be / that our kinde of bishop shoulde be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor . Wheruppon also followeth / that th archbishop which hath a necessarie relation to that kinde off bishop / and can not stand withowt him : is not by any meanes conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor . The proofes of yowr diuision of bishops into archbishops / and those called by the commen name of bishops / are as doubtfull as that wherfore they are brought .

To proue that the office off an Archbishop was in S. Paules tyme / although the name were not / is brought the word Consubstantiall ▪ which being the commen hooke off the Papistes / to 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . pull in their vnwritten verities / owght to serue the reader for a watch word / that th arbishops office needing this phisick / is sick off the same disease . And for the word it self / although it be lawful / and very conuenient / and the councell off Syrme did not well in yealding vnto the Arrians to the displacing of it : yet yt is not necessarie / as withowt which the doctrine off the truth off the diuinitie off our Sauiour Christ / can not be mainteined . For to say so / were to accuse the holy writers / S. Iohn especially : which debating that cawse against the heretickes of his time / Cerinthus / Ebion / &c. did neuer vse it . But what is this vnto the Archbishop ? let vs haue but one testimonie owt off the word off God off the office off an Archbishop / for the infinite testimonies off the diuinitie of the sonne of God : and then this example may help yow . And although the word Consubstantiall were not in S. Paules tyme : Yet wordes off the same weight were . If yow can shew therfore wordes of the same valew with Archbishop / although yow shew not this / yt shall be sufficient : if yow can not / then this example maketh against yow . Here also is further to be obserued / that this answer off the D. off the office of the archbishop being in the Apostles time / although the name was not / is the armour wherewith the Popes title of vniuersall bishop is mainteined . Diuis. 1. art. 4. For this is Hardinges answer to the bishop / that although the name of vniuersall bishop / was not at the first gyuen to the Pope : yet the autoritie was . After he flieth to his ould refuge of the Prince / and there seeketh couer for the Archbishop : asking whether he shall haue no autoritie in the church , becawse he was not in S. Paules tyme . Although S. Paul had saied that our Sauiour Christ had gyuen princes vnto his church immediatly after his ascension / as he beareth vs in hand he gaue archbishops : ether they must haue had autoritie then / or neuer after . So keeping yowr similitude / if our Sauiour gaue Archbishops when he ascended / and in S. Paules time : ether they must haue had their autoritie then / or neuer after . And the case is nothing like . for if there were no Christian Princes in the Apostles times / they being needfull for preseruation off the churches : the cawse was that it was not in the Apostles power / to ordein Christian Princes . But it was in their power to haue prouided the churches off Archbishops / if they had bene needfull : and therfore they had bene inexcusable for not appointing them / seruing so greatly to the building off the church / as we are borne in hand .

Moreouer the comparison is most vnfitly made : seing the cyuill magistrate is a perpetuall office for all times / persones / places : wheras by his owne confession / the Archbisop is temporall / and arbitrarie . Where also he asketh whether the ciuill Magistrate shall not haue the cheif autoritie in gouerning the church , because there ys no expresse mention off him in thes two places : I answer that the Princes autoritie is established in other places / so that it may florish withowt thes . But the Archbishoprick / seing yt ys an ecclesiasticall function / ether must be planted by one off thes places / or die in the church considering that there is no ecclesiasticall function / which is not here set forth . Yowr collection off my wordes is euill bound together . for how cleaue thes ? Some offices instituted off God endured for a time , therfore men may deuise new offices . Where lieth the strenght of yowr argument ? Whether in this that becawse God instituted offices for a time / therfore man may : or in this that God did abrogate certein offices / therfore man may institute ? Which soeuer yow say ( as yow must needes say one ) : the absurditie is apparant . for in both the comparison is made / between the autoritie off God / and th autoritie off man . Betwene whom how great distance there is : so great difference is there between yowr argument / and a iust conclusion . The cleane contrarie is gathered rather . For as we reason against the Papistes / that God did not abrogate his owne ceremonies / that men should thrust in others considering that if he would haue had ceremonies / he would haue taken off his owne : so yt may be saied / that God did not cut off his owne ministeries / to make place for others : and that if moe ministeries off preaching / and gouerning iointly had bene necessarie / beside Doctors / and Pastors : he would rather haue kept his owne / then taken those which men deuise .

Here all shiftes / and coulors failing him / and not being once Diuis. 20. pag 311. able to lift at this reason : he hath chaunged my argument . For where I had saied yt forth in a plaine hypotheticall Syllogisme : he hath altered yt . But I will offer yt him againe , yf vnder Saint Paules Pastor th archbishop be comprehended , then he is necessarie , and commaunded by the word off God : but yow say he is comprehended : therfore he is commaunded and necessarie . Which if it be true : then yow are fallen from yowr distinction / of thinges necessarie to saluacion / and not necessarie / off thinges arbitrarie / and commaunded by the word off God . But let vs see now yow haue prepared the argument after yowr owne fashion / and as yow thowght yow could weld yt / how yow deale with yt . Yow say first this proposition ( Pastors are necessarie at all times ) is particular . verily the masters / by whom this should be iudged / neuer tawght that an indefinite proposition in a necessarie matter / is particular . But because yow like not the forme which I vsed / yow shall haue it after yowr owne in this sort . All S. Paules Pastors are necessarie : the Archbishop ( as yow say ) is one off S. Paules Pastors : therfore he is necessarie . Here if yow denie the first proposition : yow haue the whole councell / and Senate almost of learned men against yow : affirming that those two / Pastor / and Doctor / are amongest the rest perpetuall offices . And if to be a perpetuall office be verified off the Pastor / which S Paul speaketh of : then it must be verified off all conteined vnderneath / amongest whom yow say the Archbishop is . Secondly the Archbishop being made one off the giftes / which our Sauiour ascending sent vnto his church : if yt were in the power off the church ether to establish / or not to establish him : yt should be in her power to refuse the giftes off Christ . which if it be absurd : that also must be wheroff this followeth . Thirdly if the Archbishop be necessarie at any time ( which must needes be if he be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor ) : then goeth to the grownd his commen refuge / that his office may be instituted / or not / at the churches will .

Moreouer if he say that it is necessarie / and commaunded a● some tyme / and not at others : what a miserable case is the churche in / that hath no certein addresse owt of the word / when that necessitie and commaundement beginneth / and when it endeth : when this office is in season / when owt of season ? Lastly forasmuch as S. Paul speaketh of offices then in the chuch / not of those which came after ( as the Ans. him self is forced to confesse ) the Archbishops office must needes haue bene in the Apostles tyme . Which if it be true : those times being ( as the Answ. hath borne In 2. Tractat . vs in hand ) so vnlike ours : the persons in the church then off so different dispositions from those now / the place also / the gospell being then in the East partes / where now it is in the West : it must needes follow that this monely office off the archbishop / which ebbeth and floweth / being fit for the Apostles times / is by all likelihood vnfit for ours . His distinction vnto the second proposition is / that an Archbishop in respect off the ministerie off the word , and Sacramentes is necessarie alwaies : but not in respect of policie , and gouernement . Which is asmuch to say / as an archbishop when he is an archbishop / is alwaies necessarie for the church . For when he hath not the owtward gouernement / then by yowr owne rule he is no archbishop : then which speach what can be more absurd ? And of this answer followeth / that there is a time when the Pastors haue nothing to doo with the externall policie / and gouernment off the church / but onely to administer the word / and Sacramentes : and then the church shal be an heape / and not a bodie / a confused multitude / not an orderly societie . Yet in the next section / he gyueth the gouernement off the church and order vnto the bishops / and archbishops / and will haue them part the stake off the Apostles autoritie which they had in the church . And as this answer is absurd : so yt ys contrarie to that he hath set downe in his former booke / that not onely the office off the Archbishop is necessarie , pag. 351. Diuis . 1. Diuis. 21. pag. 311. but most necessarie .

I saied before that the Apostle speaketh to the Ephes. off mynisteries which haue to doo with preaching the word : but neuer added ( as yow in yowr Doctors booke / and here ) and not those which haue to doo with order , and discipline . Therfore I had nothing forgotten my self , if be would haue vnderstanded that which is plaine to all the world . for thes two may well stand together / the Apostle spake there onely off functions conuersant in the word : and the Lord spake of those functions which Preach the word , and administer the gouernement . for the word onely / doth not seclude gouernement from those ministries : but shutreth owt all ministeries not preaching / as that off the Elder / and Deacon . And yt is one thing to say / the Lord spake there onely off preaching mynisteries : an other to say / he spake there of ministries onely preaching : which ( me thincketh ) yow could not be ignorant of . Therfore Saint Paul reckening vp the ministeries there / which haue together with the preaching of the word / the administration off gouernement / and making no mention off the Archbishop / supposed to haue both : yt followeth that yow are yet behinde with yowr answer . I haue not confuted my shadow , but yowr fond phantasie . For if S. Paul speake in that place , of those that haue the ministerie off the word , and Sacramentes onely , and not off those which haue to doo with the order of discipline : yt followeth that Apostles haue nothing to doo with order / and discipline / forsomuch as they are amongest those / which S. Paul there speaketh of . If this cogitacion neuer entred into yowr head : how cometh it to passe / that yt ys found in yowr papers ?

Lastly yow say the administration off discipline , and gouernement in the Apostles , is fallen vpon the Archbishops , and bishops , the ouerthrow off my whole assertion Yf a man will belieue yow speaking / he may : otherwise here is nothing but I saied yt . And surely yt must be a very simple hould / that is cast downe with this paper shot of bare affirmation . but if yow will weigh a litle what yow say : yow shall see that if there be any bullet at al in this yowr saying / yt is charged wholy vppon yowr self . For before yow haue saied once / or twise that the office , and autoritie off an Archbishop was in the Apostles tymes . Which if yt be true / how doth the Archbishop receiue his auauritie off order / and gouernement by their death ? for hauing yt before / he cannot receiue yt by their departure . Ether therfore this is vntrue / that the archbishop exerciseth the same autoritie which the Apostles : or that which yow saied before / that the office off the Archbishop was in the Apostles time : or els this third is true / that he hauing in the Apostles time / autoritie which he hath now : by their death obteined beside their former autoritie / that which the Apostle had also . Which how neere it pricketh at the papacye / I leaue to euery one to consider . But yf the Archbishop will succede vnto the administration off order / and gouernement off the Apostels : why sheweth he not his euidence ? why bringeth he not forth his recordes of bequest / off resignation : that it may appeare he is not entred as a trespasser .

In that sense which I haue shewed in an other place / I In 3. diui. Pag. 231. Ad Euagr . graunt it true which Ierome saith / that all bishops succede vnto the Apostles : but shew me who speaketh any thing off the succession off the archbishop vnto them . Nay verily that is flat against the archbishops autoritie . For if euery bishop haue that autoritie in his church / which the Apostles had in all the world : it followeth that there nether needeth / nether can be any archbishop to receiue any theroff . And that if any archbishop chalenge a greater autoritie / then is in any one bishop : he pulleth to him self greater autoritie in his prouince / then euer the Apostles had in the world . And by the same reason that they be Lordes / and superiours ouer bishops : they must be lordes / and superiours in their prouince ouer the Apostles them selues / if they were aliue . Considering they rule ouer those / which in their dioceses haue the same autoritie that the Apostles had . This I speake / not that I thinck the Bishops had not this autoritie / from the very birth / and foundacion off the function / as towching the gouernement off their churches / or that there came any autoritie vnto them by the Apostles death / which they had not in their tymes : but that yt may be vnderstanded / that if there were any such succession vnto the Apostles gouernement / as the D. phansieth : the bishops are the right beyres / and that not certein ( other some shut forth ) but euery one as Ierome saith . Although if th archbishop should haue an Apostolicall autoritie in gouerning his prouince : it hath appeared / and more shall ( God willing ) that the Apostles gouernement was far from that principalitie / and rule one ouer an other / which th archbishops chalenge ouer their vnder bishops . The next diuision I will not answer . The next vnto that / I report me to the reader / whether I haue faithfully / and allmost seruilely bound my self vnto his wordes / in translating thes peeces of his latin pamphlet . For the next also / I hauing shewed that yow placing the Apostles function in preaching / and ministring the Sacramentes / not in gouernement : and assigning to th archbishop both Administration off the word / and Sacramentes / and order and discipline / must needes lay greater weight vpon th archbishop / then vpon the Apostles : yf yow now reuoke yt / I am glad . Howbeit ashamed to speake it in so many wordes / euen yet the course off this treatise doth breath nothing els .

This is no answer vnto my reason . For if the church withowt Diuis . 25. Pag. 313. the Archbishop / and Archdeacon / be a bodie consisting of all the partes / comely knit together / wherin nothing wanteth / nor nothing is to much : then it followeth / that thes offices bring nether ornement / nor accomplishement to the church / but make onely an vnprofitable knob / and lump off flesh / to the both disfuguring / and hinderance off the growght off the bodie . And the ministrie off order / and policie of the church / being one part off this bodie : if it be not whole / and complete / but need to be peeced owt with archbishops / and Archdeacons : it must draw with it this absurditie / that there being one member vnperfect withowt them / the bodie also off Christ is not perfecte . And where it ys saied / that as in the Apostles times the church was not perfect withowt them , and Prophetes , &c. so it is not now , meaning therby ( as both before / and after hath appeared ) that th archbishops should supplie the roume off the Apostles : I answer that the Argument holdeth not . For considering that the perfection off the bodie / must be measured by the will off him whose the bodie is / that is Christ : as when he gaue Apostles / Euangelistes / &c. he made it appeare that he would not haue his bodie perfect withowt them : so when he tooke them away from his church / he made it knowen that the bodie was perfect withowt them . Yf Apostles / and Euangelistes had bene put downe by autoritie of man : then yt might haue helped yow / that as men put downe Mynisteries / so they might supplie them with other . But seing they were taken away by the Lord : this yowr reason in effect ( becawse God taketh away , therfore men may administeries ) hath no strenght in it . And where all this drift is / that yow would haue th archbishops office come in for the Apostles / and therfore say that their autoritie ouer the pastors doth , and must remaine in such places , as there be churches : besides my former answer vnto this point / yow are againe taken in the wordes off yowr owne lippes . For if it must remaine : then the office off the archbishop which yow make the vessell to receiue this autoritie in / and whose office ( yow say ) consisteth in the rule off other pastors , is not variable / and depending off circumstance off time / &c. but perpetuall / and constant .

Yf Bucer speake as yow make him : I can by no meanes subscribe vnto him . For S. Luke saith plainly / that there were many Act. 20. 28. bishops at Ephesus : and gyueth the name off bishop to many . That the name off bishop did properly remaine in one off them , and improperly in thother / if it haue so good autoritie as the former / I will belieue that too : if not / I hould me vnto the wordes off S. Luke . And if the name off bishop doth vnproperly belong vnto those / whom Saint Paul saith the holy gost had appointed bishops : ouer the church : I confesse that I can not tell what autoritie is sufficient / to make that name off bishop proper vnto them . And if the name off bishop did not properly belong vnto them all / but vnto one onely : yt followeth that the name also of an Elder / did not properly belong vnto them . For the one of them ys Act. 20. c. 17. v. as well verified of them / as the other : and there is no more restreint off the name off bishop then of an Elder / vnto any one singular person amongest them . And how is this sentence off Bucer here pulled in by the heare ? for albeit it were concluded / that one bishop should beare dominion ouer the ministers of one churche : yet yt followeth not which is here in question / that one also owght to rule ouer all bishops in a prouince . The rest is answered .

In deed I denie , but yow affirme that there be still Apostles / Diuis. 26. pag. 314 Prophetes / &c. and therfore by yowr saying / that order which was then / owght now also to be continued . And although yowr archbishop were vnder gownde : yet order in ecclesiasticall mynistries remaineth / that the teaching Elders should be a degree aboue those which gouerne onely / and they aboue the Deacons . The marck I shoot at is certein / that is to confute yowr distinction off Diuis. 27 : pag. 314. mynisteries off the word / and Sacramentes onely / and ministeries off gouernement / and order : and it seemeth I shot so nigh / that I haue driuen yow away from the marck . For yow wander / and tell vs of thinges that haue nether head / nor foot : and which if they were true / make nether whot / nor kold vnto this question . For if your learned interpreters , haue well defined S. Paules rule ( the Elders which rule are worthy ) &c. when they say yt is to serue Christ , and his church faithfully , in doctrine , and integritie off life &c : then it must suffice yowr Archbishop to doo so / and no more . For if yow thinck that euery minister in his church / is barred by that definition from further gouernement / then which consisteth in preaching / administring the Sacramentes / vncorrupt life / &c : it followeth that he medling with moe then those / breaketh the boundes off good gouernement . After yow make an other rode owt off the question / bearing the reader in hand / that I would conclude owt off that place equalitie off ministers when as my pourpose was as I haue shewed / to confute yowr vaine distinction . Which although yow here denie : yet the print off yowr hand is deeper / then yow can wipe owt by thes so strong / but litle honest denials . For onles yow refer this word onely , to the secluding off the ministeries mentioned to the Ephesians / from the gouernement / and policie off the church : yowr answer falleth as is before declared . Considering that yow labouring to make a difference betwene those mynisteries / and the Archbishops / make none : if they together with administration off the word / and Sacramentes / handle also order / and gouernment . And although yow had quite left owt the word onely : yet thes wordes ( the Apostle doth recite those ministeries which are occupied in praier , the word , and Sacramentes : not off them which are instituted for order , and discipline ) haue that sense which I haue gyuen them . For if he speake off those which minister the word / and Sacramentes / not off those instituted for gouernement / &c. yt followeth that he speaketh off those which minister the word / and Sacramentes onely . As he that saith a man is iustified by faith / and not by worckes : saith that he is iustified by faith onely . The bolt shot vppon no occasion / towching the papacie off euery pastor in his church , and off shaking off the Princes autoritie , being that which cometh euery hand while / when he hath nought els to say / shall be broken in an other place . For the two next diuis . let the reader iudge off the writinges off both sides .

My wordes haue light enough to haue kept yow from this Diuis. 30. pag. 316. wandring / but that yow take pleasure in vntruth . for beside that the scope off my disputation / doth beate yow from that vagarie : my wordes are plaine . For I say not that euery one that occupieth a mynisterie in the church , hath gyftes sufficient for his calling : but euery function , or mynistrie off the church , hath giftes sufficient , &c. And if yowr vnderstanding be so narrow as yow pretend : vnderstand it by examples . And becawse our question is of offices necessarie for our times / and therfore likewise off the giftes : yow may learne that the office off a Pastor / is ( as hath bene shewed ) a seuerall office from the Doctor / because beside the knowledge / and dexteritie in teaching / the wisdome / and discretion in gouerning : yt hath also annexed the grace to moue affections / ether to the loue of good / or hatred off euill . Likewise the Doctor from the Elder : becawse beside the gift off gouernement enough for that function / there is required as I haue saied abilitie to teach . The Deacon from the Elder : for that beside faithfulnes / and reasonable wisdome / which is sufficient for the gathering / and bestowing of the church money : is required with greater wisdome a singular diligence / as off him whose charge reacheth vnto the whole / where the other perteineth to the poore of the church onely : and which is occupied in relieuing the pouerties off the minde / where the other is off the bodie . This is that I saied / euery function hath proper giftes for the execution of it : and that forsomuche as now ther is no gift necessarie for the ecclesiasticall ministerie / not conteined in thes / and that all thes fall into the ordinarie ministerie instituted / and specified in the scripture : therfore thes ordinatie Ministeries specified in scripture / are sufficient . And as it is a good reason that there are no moe Sacramentes but baptisme / and the supper / forsomuch as there is no promesse off life euerlasting not expessed in thes / considering that th one sealeth vp / and assureth that we are receiued into the howse off God / the other that we shall befed in it to life euerlasting : euen so thes ministeries / are proued to be sufficient / becawse all giftes necessarie to good order / and conduit off the church / are promised vnto them .

Against this is saied / that God tieth not his giftes to a certein nombre off names , but bestoweth them where it pleaseth him . I spake not off all giftes / but of giftes necessarie to gouerne the church with all : and those being necessarily tied vnto the offices which haue / and owght to haue / those names : all other church offices are shut forth / as those which are ether idle / or hurtfull . That there are functions necessarie Coriath . 12. not mentioned to the Ephesians , and againe that the Apostle did not make a perfect diuision in ether off those places , is onely to trifle owt the tyme . forsomuch as I added expressely / that I grounded my reason off both places ioyntly besides that it is vntrue that Deacons , and widowes are left owt to the Corinth . being conteined in the word helpes . Moreouer this is the third contrary 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . sentence / which he hath gyuen off Corin. 12. for in the latin booke he proueth / that there is no perfect diuision there : in this he goeth in 18. diu . pag. 309. abowt to proue by reason / and autoritie / that it is pecfect : here he saith it is not perfect Such force hath the truth / that yt maketh them all guiddy / and turnesick that wrestle against it : not perfect , perfect , not perfect . so that the very Camelion it self / could neuer so soudenly / and into so contrary coulors change it self . Against his exception that there are reckened vp in those places offices which endured for a time : I graunt there were so / but those ceassing ( as hath bene shewed ) their proper giftes also be gone with them . Where he addeth that he could tell me , that the church hath autoritie to appoint names , and offices : yt is that in question / which he often saith / but neuer proueth . Towching Readers / it is answered : as for Catechistes / they are to be discussed after .

The argument which yow say is too bad for a boy , is as good as I can make any . I will leaue it to the iudgement of all which haue skill / how yow vncouer yowr self in yowr exceptions against it . For to omit that I haue said / and leaue to be iudged / of argumentes good of particulers : my first proposition is vniuersall / if this be / the seruant that knoweth his maisters will , and doth it not , shall be beaten with many stripes : and this / they that doo the will of my father which is in heauen , shall enter into the kingdome off heauen : he that is not with me , is against me : those which goe after other gods , shall lose their good : and an infimite nomber moe / to be seen both in holy / and prophane writers . But as the ruder sort know not the King / onles he haue his crowne vpon his head : so the D. hath no marck to know a generall proposition by / onles it haue this word All , vppon the head of it .

Likewise where he saith this worde ( onely ) is not to be founde in the seconde proposition : He shoulde haue vnderstanded / that it is a parte off the principall extremes / and therfore coulde not enter there . It ys his greate wante / that he can not knowe one terme / from another / onles they stande in their naturall order . for becawse he saw not thes wordes ( onely are sufficiente ) in the naturall place off the extreme / as one that had no marke to discerne the master from the man / but by going before and behinde / he takethe one for another . When S. Iohn saithe in the beginning was the worde , and by and by after / God was that worde , with many such examples both in holie / and prophane writ : those that haue but a litle iudgement can tell / that althowgh he chaunged the naturall order / yet those are still the fyrste partes / which are put in the later place : and that it ys asmuch as if he had said / The worde was in the beginning , and the vorde was God . This is therfore the argumente , which in the Ans. sight hath no manner off forme . Those functions which haue all giftes needefull / ether for the ministring off the worde / and Sacramentes / or for the gouernemente off the churche / onely are sufficient : the functions reckened vp off Saint Paul in bothe the places / to the Ephes and Corinth . haue all giftes needefull / ether for ministring off the word / and Sacramentes / or for gouernement of the churche : therfore those functions onely are sufficient . Let the reader therfore iudge / whether this argument be like vnto thes sweepinges / that he hath matched it with . That an archbishop is a Diuis 31. Pag 317 in diui . 10 pag. 304. in 3 Tra newe ministrie / is declared . Where he saith if no man appoint new offices , but he which can gyue giftes to discharge them , it should follow , that no man might appoint offices : if he vnderstand as he owght to doo ecclesiasticall offices / it is that I mainteine . if he leap ouer here ( as his coustome is ) to ciuill : I haue shewed that the reason is not like .

Half this diuis . is in the tenth off this chap. where yt hath answer . My argument here ( a man may not ad to the ministeries , Diuis 32 pag. 318. because he may not take away ) is fyrst off thinges apparantly like : as those which are likewise forbidden / likewise punished . Deut. 12. 32. Apoc. 22. 19. Then it hath this grownd / that they being contrary fall into one subiect : except one be naturally in it / as heat in fire . ( Which I am constreined to speake of / because I haue to doo with such a trifler / as would snatch at this exception / although nothing to prurpose . ) So that as he that hath autoritie to make lawes / hath also to abrogate / he which may absolue may condemne / he that may binde may loose : so he that hath power to ad / hath also to deminish . But marck what the D. answereth . The question is whether men may ad to the ministeries : the meane / and argument wherby I proue they can not , because it is not lawfull to deminish : now when he answereth / that men may ad / doth he not gyue that for answer which is the question / and take that for his proofe / which is to be proued ? And as for that which followeth ( the added ministeries may be helpes to ministeries instituted off God ) : yt is likewise in controuersie / being as doubtfull as the rest . And the Papistes may as well answer thus / for the multiplying off their Sacramentes : as the D. for encrease off the ministries . But forsomuch as thes are yowr commen answers / here is nothing new / or to be wondred at . Vnto the second proposition he saith / men may take away offices off God which are temporall ( that is enduring for a time ) but not perpetuall . Wherin he is greatly abused . For nether any man / nor all men in the world / could haue put downe the temporall ministeries off Apostles / Euangelistes / &c. which the Lord ordeined / onles the Lord him self had withdrawen them : and therfore they so long remained in the church / vntill he by their death / withowt raysing vp any seede vnto them ( by distribution of those giftes wherby those ministeries might be furnished ) declared that they had an end .

The Ans. in defense of this forged Doctors / is like vnto one Chap. 2. Diuis. 1. pag. 319. which to defend him from the kolde / couereth him self with a wet sacke . For before his ignorance might haue in part excused him : now by this maintenance off his answer / he hath doubled his folie . For first to make him self cleane / he defileth as much as he can / Maister Caluin / and the Bishop off Salisburie : both which he nether sheweth to haue vsed this Clement / and if they doo : yet their vse of him / or such like / is so farfrom lessening his fault / that is maketh it more appeare . For they vse them agaynst the Papistes / which for the moste part attributing vnto them as great weight of autoritie / as to the scriptures themselues / are so set vp . Which they doo also therby to driue from them : that if they can not be browght from the confidence they haue in such / becawse they are false : at least they might be browght to mislike them / becawse they make against them . Likewise when they alledge them / they gyue them such an eare marck / that all may know them forged . But the D. doth vse them against those / which hunger for proofes at his handes owt off the worde off God / in the matters debated : which haue that estimacion that is meet should be had / off such filth as that is : which could not giue credit vnto this autoritie / withowt renouncing the profession off the gospell / which we haue in commen . And in steed off giuing him his eare marck : he putteth a night cap vppon him / to hide it with . for in steed off alledging off him owt off the epistles / where he appeareth with his hornes / and clawes plainly : he maketh him come owt of Polidore / as disguised owt off a straunge contrey . and becawse Polidores wordes did not muffle him sufficiently / in saying that this was conteined in a litle summarie off Christian religion : he ( that Clement might goe the better vnknowen ) added / in a booke intituled , &c. which I merueil with what face he citeth Polidore for . as if there were no difference between his / and Polidorc● wordes . And he is not content onely to haue alledged the autority : but as in a certein / and vndoubted victorie / he triumpheth / and insulteth vpon his aduersarie : saying / Peter was not Antichrist , ergo the name off an Archbishop , is not Antichristian .

In the second place he saith / he vsed them not ●● sure grownde● , but as probable testimonies off antiquitie of the name . Wherin his hand being with the Papistes / is against not onely the manifest truth / but all those godly writers / which reiect those epistles as vpstartes / and lately forged vnder a hedge . For against them all the D. saith / that it is very probable that they haue that antiquitie which they pretend . Thirdly / he compareth them with the Canons attributed vnto the Apostles : wheroff albeit diuerse ●●e falsely fathered : yet those creeping in at sundrie times / were ●●●w●●standing some 100. yeares / before this drosse came ●●to the church . Wheruppon also the corruptions in them / although they ●a●ter the walles off the cytie off God : yet they rase not the foundacions off it / as this Clement doth : nether are they alledged off me ( as he pretendeth ) but with atteint off the basenes off their birth . And for my alledging off Higinus : I refer me to the indgement off the reader / what a cognisance I haue gyuen him there / pag. 4●● to be knowen by .

His last refuge is / that yt is like Polidore ment some other booke . not now extant . For confutation off which vnshamefast speach / to what end should I other alledge the latenes off the time wherin he wrote / or vnfoundnes off his iudgment ? wherby he hauing not made half a turne from Poperie vnto the gospell : might by all likelihood think / that those were Clementes epistles . The weakenes off his owne proofes doo betray him / as those that make more against / then for him . For if he will make difference between a grosse epistle / and a litle booke : the precise distinction tendeth rather to proue a booke / then an Epistle . And for the lenght / it is manifest : considering that Tully calleth such long letters / a volume : and in two or three epistles drawen owt beyond the ordinary / correcteth him self / as breaking the bondes off an Epistle . The same may be saied both off the matter handled / and off the manner off handling . Which being nether commen / nor familiar if a man will speake as the Latines ( whom Polidore followeth ) vse : they were fitter for a booke / then an Epistle . That Clement scarce knowing what difference there is / between the nominatiue / and accusatiue case : yt was no merueill if he were ignorant off the difference / between a booke / and an epistle : and therfore not vnlike / but Polidore helped him in his title . for the next diuis . I am content that the issue declare / from whence the archbishop came .

This is deintie / and tender geere / and such as I can not deale with . diuers times before his answer hath bene / that th archbishops Diuis. 3. pag. 320. ministerie differeth from the Bishops towching order : here he saith / they differ not in order . before to proue that the church might appoint an archbishop / he saied / that it might appoint an pag. 317. office / beside the offices off the scriptures : now he is gone from that / saying the Archbishops ministerie is no other ministrie , but an other degree . Also in an other place / he to mainteine th archbishop saith / the church may ad ministeries : here because he is ashamed off that / he pag. 318. denieth that yt is a new ministerie . Then forasmuch as his answer standeth in this difference / off ecclesiasticall office / and degree / and againe betwene ecclesiasticall degree / and order : becawse I thinck they were neuer heard off before / they need some autoritie off the scripture / at least some Ecclesiasticall writers to confirme them . And beside that in ecclesiasticall writers / the mynisteries are separated one from an other by degree : the Ans. Pag. 587. him self in an other place / will haue the word degree ( when it is saied / they get vnto them selues a good degree ) to signifie a diuers ministrie from the Deaconship . Likewise in an other place / to proue that a Bishop is aboue a priest / he vppon certein autorities Pag. 361. concludeth / that in those times there were three degrees off ministers / bishop / priest / and deacon . whereuppon yt must follow / that if the Archbishop differ from the bishop in degree ecclesiasticall : he must differ in ministerie / euen as the degree off deacon / being different from the Elder / maketh a seuerall mynisterie from yt . yea theruppon followeth / that there being then but three degrees in the church / wheroff the archbishop was none by his owne saying : there was then no archbishop / seing he maketh him a seuerall degree from them : which is a manifest ouerthrow off that he defendeth .

In an other place to proue Timothe archbishop / he alledgeth pag. 325. that th office off th archhishops , and bishops be one , becawse whatsoeuer is necessarie for a bishop , is necessarie for an archbishop : which is ridiculous . For then a bishop is all one with an Elder / considering that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an Elder / is necessarie for a bishop : and the Euangelistes office the same that an Apostles / considering that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an Euang. is necessarie for an Apostle . Where to proue the offices all one / he should haue saied / not onely that it is necessarie for an archbishop which is for a bishop : but also that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an archbishop / In the same place ●s likewise for a bishop . Where he saith / they differ onely in order , and policie , and therfore all attributed in the Epistle to Timothe the Archbishop , agreeth vnto euery bishop : theroff followeth that a commen ( as he is called ) not differing in office from our bishop ( as himself confesseth after ) shall by the same reason / haue power to doo all thinges described in that epistle / and consequently make ministers / and put owt as well as our bishops doo . Thes thinges therfore were giuen owt / or euer they were well thowght off : some time th archbishop differeth in office from a bishop / sometime he differeth not : sometime he differeth in order / sometime not : some time in degree / sometime not .

To proue that S. Peter by him self / withowt the autoritie off other Apostles / instituted Archbishops / ys browght the example off S. Paul , which made Timothe , and Tite Archbishops : which is to proue one thing in controuersie / by that which is likewise . and is all one as if one doubting the suffiencie off his creditor / in steed off some substanciall man to assure his debt / should haue a banck rowt browght to be bownd vnto him . Which manner off reasoning when all men know how absurd it is : it appeareth that the Ans. vsing it continually / is ( as they say ) at the end off his rolle . That S. Paul did not appoint Titus / and Timothe of his owne in 2. Tractat . autoritie onely / hath before appeared : that he did not appoint them Archbishops / shall afterward ( God willing ) be shewed . Beside that yt hath bene already off Timothe shewed / that he was an Euangelist : and the same reason is off Tite .

To my other reason / that S. Peter would not graff the most noble plant ( as it is counted ) off the ministerie off the gospell / in the rotten stocke off Archflamines : he answereth that Peter might place Archbishops where the Archflamines were , not in respect off them , but in respect off the cytie . Which distinction I confesse I vnderstand not : onely I see / that in this clowde / and mist off confused / and vndistinct distinction / he would steale away vnespied . for yf in the same cyties onely where there were Archflamines ( as we are borne in hand ) and in place off them Archbishops were placed : and as the Archflamines were set to ouersee the flamines / so the Archbishops to ouersee the bishops : how can it be but they were placed as well in respect off those Achflamines / as off the cities ? For they differ not in this point from Archflam . considering that as archbishops were placed in respect off great cyties : so were the Archflam . before them . Here also the Answ. floteth in his iudgement off Peter . For before he saide / he had the cheife rule off the ●●●stles in all matters : and here / he was not aboue them in power . so that onles Pag. 68. he can mynce vs a diuersity betwene superior in rule / and superior in power : yt is cleare that he is not the same man here / that he was there .

The lordes preistes / and Sacrafices were before the preistes / and sacrifices off the Gentills . therfore that exception ( God instituted Diuis. 4. pag. 321. preistes and sacrifices though the Gentils had the like ) ●● vaine to proue that there may be Archbishops / as there were Archflamines . A Kinge was necessarie for the Israelites , to shadow owte to them the kingdome of our S. Christe : therfore that example is owte of place . To proue conformite betwene the people of God / and Idolaters in thinges which are not necessarie / as the Archebishoprick is confessed / beside that yt ys an euill conclusion / to saie there maie be conformitie betwene the people off God / and Idolaters in cyuill affaires / therfore in ecclesiasticall : to ordeine a bishopp , and mynister being the institution of God / in euery churche where there was other a flamen , or masse preiste , can not be saide to be framed according to those orders . But to ordeine an Archbishop not instituted off God / bothe in that place where the Archflamen was / and with that rule / and autoritie ouer the bishopes / which the archflam . had ouer their flamens : can not be imagined / but to haue bene framed according to that Idolatrous function . Yf yow will therfore make the like : yow must proue that as yt ys the institucion of God / that in euery churche there sholde be a bishop / or mynister : so yt ys likewise his institution / that in euerie greate cytie / there shoulde be an Archbishop . The allegation owte of maister Fox in the nexte / perteineth not to this place . For the question is not heere / whether the Archbishops came in steede off Arflamines / but wether S. Peter did ordeine archbishops in place off the archflamines : which I assure my selfe yow can not shew owte off him .

Here he hath at one push / thrust the archbishop quite owte off the churche . For if this be a good reason / there were no deacons Diuis. 6. pag. 312. emongeste the Iewes / becawse they were not specified in the oulde Testament : then yt is likewise trew / that forsomuche as there ys no Archbishop specified in the new Testament / there was no Archbishop in the Apostles tymes . Againste this take off Peters ordeining off Archbishops in the place off Archeflamens / add this / that the vanitie off yt maie appeare : forasmuche as if there were any Archeflamens in S. Peters tyme / they were vpholden off the Magystrates that lyued in those dayes . And therfore to put downe them / and place other in their roumes / there was required S. Peter / besyde his keyes sholde haue a sworde / and an armie off men . For the Magystrates being then ( as the Ans. himselfe graunteth ) heathenishe / and Idolatrous : this alteracion could neuer be made / but by stronge hand / and at the swordes poynt . The rest / bare affirmacions / and confuted in other places / I leaue . Whether the Sadduces were collectors for the poore / I will not enter further into : although his reason / off not being specified in the ould testament , is vnsufficient . For yt ys enough yf yt be in new or ould : consydering that the baptisyng off the Israelites in the sea / and spirituall feeding by Manna / and the water following them / being vnder the ould Testament : are onely specifyed in the new . besyde that his argument is negatiue off one part off 1. Corint. 10. &c. the scripture / which he condemneth in vs off the whole .

Agaynste the reason I bring to proue / that there were no Archflamines / ys answered that the matter ys not great yt standeth Diuis. 7. pag. ●●● . vppon the lyfe off the Archbishop . For yf yt be found a Canturberye tale / off Saint Peters placyng off Archbishops in place off Archflamynes : being not off the Apostles planting / We may both boldlyer / and easelier pull hym vp by the rootes . Then he saith / an argument off humane autorytye negatyue , ys not good . Wherin I refer my selfe to that sayed before in that behalf / and leaue yt to euery mannes consyderation / what lykelyhood there ys that there were suche / when Tullye dyuiding / and distinguyshing the offyces occupied about their Gods / maketh no mention off that / supposed to haue bene cheyf . Where he asketh why the Grecians might not call him Archflamin , whom Tullie called Flamen Dialis : I am content / let that be triall . And yf he can shew me ether Plutarch / or Dyonisyus Halicarnaseus / or any other good greek / or latin auncient wryter / that there was any such office : I will moue no further disputation in this matter . Therfore I woulde gladly know of yow / what pr●ph●●e 〈◊〉 they be which make mention off thes Archflamines . For the founteines from which this report cometh / are not ecclesiasticall / but papisticall .

Last off all / to proue that there were Archflamines / and withall to lay open my vnskilfullnes in stories , yt is alledged that there were such in England . But how doth he shew my vnskilfulnes / which sheweth nothing wherin I preuented hym not ? I knew well that there were that saied so / I alledged them : but with what truth / and fidelitie / that ys the question . To deciding wheroff besyde reproches / what ys browght ? he will say paraduenture M. Fox . Yf thow turne gentle reader thother side off the leafe / wherowt the sentence ys taken : thow shalt vnderstand manifest treacherie . for M. Fox disputeth against this opinion / and vseth diuers reasons which confute flatly this fable / off the conuersion off England by Eleutherius Embassadours : and setteth downe that sentence by way off concession / rather caried agaynst his will by certein stories in this vntruth / then led by his owne Iudgemente . Note also that the D. ys directly here for Harding / agaynst the Bishop off Sarum / both in this fable / off Eleutherius / and the Archflamines . For towching archflamines he saith / yt ys a mere phantasie , grounded vpon an vnsauorie fable off Clementes , and Anacletus : and that nether the name Archflamines , Apol pa 2. ca 4. d. 3. or protaflamines , is to be found in any auncient allowed writer . and towching thother fable of Eleutherius / obiected by Harding as now by the D. he answereth / it is vntrue : adding reasons there to be seen . And that this fable wherof Geffrey Monumetensis Apol pa 1. ca 2. d 2 was autor / may better appeare : hauing a litle treatise theroff sent me with M. Foxes leafe / well written in that behalf / that in the profit the church shall receyue / the autor also may haue some fruict off his trauaill / I will here set yt downe .

Geffrey Monumetensis maketh here in Britayn before Lucius tyme / 28. flamines / and 3. Archflamines / and when Lucius receiued the Christian fayth / that the 28. flamines were changed into 28. Bishops / and the 3. Archflam . into 3. Archbishops / which had three seates in the three cheif cyties off the Isle / London / Yorck / and Caerust . Vnto London was subiect Loegria / vnto Yorck Deira / and Albanya / vnto Caerusk Cambry● . Thus all the Isle by this storie off Geffrey / should become Christened in Lucius tyme . But this could not come to passe vpon Lucius receiuing the Religion of Christ / onles he had been king ouer all Britayn . Now the manner off the Britaynes was not to haue one king alone / but many : as may most plainly appeare both before Lucius time / and after / by the ould Romane histories / and also by Gildas the Britanie historiographer / who liued about 1100. agoe . Diodorus Siculus saith / there are many kinges / and Frinces : lib. 5. ca. 8 when he speaketh off Brytain / shewing what yt was in the daies off Iulius Cesar . After whom the Emperour that did attempt to subdue the Brytaines / was Claudius / more then 50. yeares after that Iulius Cesar made warre vppon them : at which tyme what the gouernement of Brytanes was in hauing Kinges / thus writteth Dion Cassius . The Britaines were not free , but subiect In vita Claudiꝭ . to diuers Kinges Now an hundreth yeare after this almost / which is nigh the tyme that Lucius is saied by Geffrey to be King of Britayn / thus writeth Cornelius Tacitus . In tymes past they obeyed Kinges , now by Princes they are distracted with factions , and partes taking , nether is there any other thing more profitable for vs against most mightie nations , then that they take no commen counsaill : yt is seldome that two or three cyties come together , to withstand a commen daunger . so whilest they fight seuerally , they are ouercommed wholy . This writeth Tacitus / sonne in law off that Lucius Agricola / who had the rule off this Isle 8. yeares continuall in the raigne off Domitian the Emperour : and therfore could not but well vnderstand / the manner off the Britaines in hauing at once many Princes / gyuen to tumultes .

Now in the daies off Seuerus the Emperour / who raigned by and by after this tyme / in which Lucius ys saied King of Britaines : heare what ys reported by a writer euen off that age / and Dion Cassius . which was for the most part / in the warres off the Romans him self . Amongest the Brytaines , the people for a great part haue the rule . To conclude Gildas himself / in his inuectiue Epistle agaynst the Britaines / maketh mention of diuers kinges / as liuing all at one tyme , but admit this were true / that Lucius was King alone ouer all Brytaine : yet was he vnder the Romane deputie / and could attempt no change of Religion / specially the Romaine / and so vniuersally as ys supposed / but with his allowance : the Brytaines hauing amonge them at that tyme / so valiant a Romane deputie called Albinus / of whom Seuerus then Emperour / stood hym self in some awe / and durst attempt no warres abroad / before he had fyrst ioined in sure amitie with him . For a a Dionifi . Halicarnassaeus . to haue flamines was proper to the Roman religion : b b Cornel. Tacit. li. 14. but Druides proper to the Brytaines . Which if at any time the Romans did put away / to establish their owne flamines ( which doth not yet apeare by any historie ) yet that could they not doe ouer all Britaine according to Geffreis storie / but onely so far as their owne prouince did extend . For ouer all Britaine they were neuer Lordes : seing that a c c Dion . Cassius . Roman ( which saith he wrote that he saw ) writeth thus . Part off this Island , is a litle lesse then half owres : which when Seuerus would wholy subdue , he entred into Calidonia . For a litle before thes wordes / he maketh the Britaines consist of two kindes of people / whom be calleth Meatas / and Calidonios / and that the Romans had in their power / onely the Meatas .

Againe consider what was the life off the Britaines in the daies of Seuerus the Emperour / who liued a lytle after that Lucius ys saied King off Britaine : and it will appeare most plainly / that the Brytaines had not onely no such shew off a generall / and open Christian church established amonge them / as setteth forth Geffrey : but also that they were far from any litle tast off Christ . For thus yt ys written off them . They liue in tentes naked , Dion Cassius . in loco supra cita●o . their wiues are commen , &c. Ys it like that a people that abuseth wines in commen / had such a constituted forme of a Christian church / as Geffrey gyueth to vnderstand ? or was there euer such barberousnes off going naked off men / and weomen / where the word off God was tawght ? which commaundeth not onely modestie / but semelynes . It is therfore rather true / which that ould father Gildas / their owne countrey man speaketh off them : the Britaines receiued the faith off Christ , euen from the comming off Christ , and in the daies off Tiberius the Emperour : but that was not publikely nor vniuersally by autoritie off Prince / but off some few / and off those how ? Of some Koldly , off some soundly . and how long ? vntill the tymes off Dioclesian the Tyrant : which was after Lucius / at least 132. yeares .

But if we will narrowly exact this storie of Geffrey / yt will hardly fall owt / that Lucius him self became a Christian / according to his deliuering off the sterie . For he saith yt came to passe by meanes off Eleutherius / wo was made bishop off Rome in the daies of Commodus the Emperour / anno 180. and yet maketh Lucius to die an 156. so by that reckening / Lucius became Christian after he was dead / at least xxiiij yeares . Further if we well marck / after what long blindnes off time / this storie commeth to light / and in what defect off any ould / and good writer to keepe the memorie therof : I dare warrant yow / yt will proue but a fable . The time when this is saied to be doon / lacketh a good deale off 200. yeares after Christ : a thowsand yeares after this we haue no knowen writer / nether off our owne / not forein / that maketh any litle report off this chaunge off Archflaminrickes into archbishoprickes / vntill the tyme off Geffrey : who was made bishop off S. Asse / in the daye off Henry the second . And from whence fetcheth he this storie ? yt may be some will say / he had yt off the ould Britaines / and was by him onely tourned into latin . but how likely is this to be true ? when ould Gildas dealeth thus plainly / in report off his owne countrey monumentes . The monumentes In his epistle aforesaied of writers , yf there were any , be ether burnt by fyre of ennemies : or by nauy of citisens exiled , caried far off , doe not appeare .

But if any man will say / perhaps this booke of Geffrey was one off those so caried away / and afterwardes found he woteth not where / was browght home againe : this besides it is off yt self but a coniecture / ys also plainly refuted by Geffrey him self : who writeth storie almost off 200. yeares after Gildas / and hath the bistorie off Bede in some places / euen word for word . That I speake nothing off his vntruth / and toto childish errors in many places / especially when he maketh report off any matter of auncient tyme : which might be some argument also / to draw from hym opinion off antiquitie . After that Geffrey had once coiued this storie / there lacke no writers which also make mention theroff : but so as they make some chaunge off his report . As Platina / who maketh but 25. flamines . and 3. Archflamines : belike in vita Eleutherij . moued by the Epistle off Gildas / who maketh the nombre of all the cyties in Britaine / to be but 28. although he alledge for his autor Ptolomey . Thus far this autor : vpon all which matter may appeare / what folies they be which the D. auowcheth for truth / and wheruppon he hath laied the foundacion off his archbishop .

Yow shall not be hable to shewe that the bishops which the Apostels planted were other , then which with th elders had the ouersight Diuis . 8. Pag. 324. of one particular congregation : and therfore yowr proofes are alwaies by other thinges / as dowtefull as the question in hande . And if that were true / yet maketh it nothing for the archbishop . For what synewes are in this argument ? The Apostles placed bishops in euerie cytie , therfore an Archbishop ouerseer off them in euery prouince . After he saith / yf by a piller of Antechriste yow vnderstand him or him : as if I had not sufficiently shewed whom I mente . Who can patiently answer this wandring where the way is so plainly beaten ? and this is his commen practise to peece owte his answer . Thirdly he saith / he may take reportes off Antiquities from the papistes : no man hindereth him . But if he will take their reporte in their owne cawse / and in a matter inuented to aduance the credite of the romishe seat / that whilest Peter is made the founder of Archbishops / and Patriarckes / the Pope his supposed successor / might haue the stewardship off them / and they be the easelier holden in his obedience : yf I saie he will belieue suche stories / yt is to be feared leste it be the Lordes anger againste him : wherby it is iuste that they shold belieue lies / which will not belieue the truth . And if the sentet of the archbishop had so occupied his sense / that he hathe not smelte this frawde of the papistes / and the cawse hereof : Distinct . 22. Diuis. 9. pag. 325. he mighte haue learned it of Gratian / who carieth this whole fable vnto that ende .

Yow wipe not awaie the filthe off the times wherin Volusianus wrote / and him yow purge not : who ( by that he is so deepe in his masse ) appeareth to haue bene defiled with it . And where yow say / yt is not like that he would write any thing in that matter , which he had not certeinly learned of worthy writers : I pray yow what worthyer writers coulde there be in this behalfe / then Denis bishop off Corinthe / and Euseb ? I am sure he coulde not fetche further then thes . So that from whom soeuer he took yt ( yf he receiued yt of any ) : yt is cleare he receiued yt off those / which being further off the Apostels times / can haue no credite herin / further than they shew forthe the autors of their reporte . but to make reume for the archbishop / we must belieue those thinges as certeine / which nether are now / nor yet were then extante when Eusebius wrote / which gathered his storie off writers before his time : and not onely testimonies which neuer were / but wherof the bare names are not to be founde . Wheras the maner of writers is / when they alledge any thinge that the former times had not spoken off / as at the finding of some greate treasure / to note the meanes how that fell into their handes .

Against the autoritie alledged owte off Eusebius / that Denys was bishop / is opposed that it is a negatiue argument of autorisie : which is an engine to wringe owte off the churches handes / a singular meanes which all the writers of our times / vse againste the forgeries off the Papistes . For when they reason against the forged Epistles / againste Chrisostomes leytourgie / against the bastard writinges of Augustine / &c. that there are thinges conteined in them which no writer of that age wherein they are supposed to haue writte / maketh mention off ; the D. hath tawght an easie answer / that yt is an euill argument off autoritie negatiuely / and that yt followeth not that there were no suche thinges then / becawse they were not mentioned in their writinges . Likewise when the bishop of Salis . made this chalenge after performed / that yt coulde not be shewed owt off any alowed writer 600. Yeares after Christe / that there was any mention off suche / and suche thinges mainteined by poperie : the Answ. hath with one worde / wiped awaie the profite off all those trauailes . for yt maie be answered / that suche thinges were / althowghe none made mencion of them . The Papistes in their defences haue harde foreheades : but I thincke there is scarce founde amongeste them / that would not blushe at suche an answer . Yet this is almost the salue for all sores / namely where I haue shewed / that in none of the writers within certeine hundred yearés after Christe / which haue filled their bookes with the mention of bishops / there is any the leaste mention of an Archbishop . Againste which ryot off answer oftentimes repeted / yt shall be sufficiente once here to haue spoken generally .

Now I come to that more proper to this place / that histories are not so curious in calling men by their seuerall tytles : because we vse to call the bishops of Canturbery , and Yorke , oftener by name of bishop then archbishop . But he should vnderstand / that yt is one thing to speake after the commen sort : and an other to write to the approbation of the learned . And when there ys no kinde of writing so narrowly bound to the obseruation of circumstances off place / time / person / as a storie : yt must bring a great mist in it / to put no difference betwene a bishop / and an Archbishop : considering that that perteineth to the policie off the church / wherunto they had regard . So that althowgh he vse some libertie off speach in other places : yet in this place yt was more insufferable / and that so continually / in Denys twise / in Iames / in the bishop of Rome / of Alexandria / &c. he might withowt reprehension haue spoken so once / or twise : but him perpetually to call all Archbishops bishops / I thinck yow will hardly perswade any man off iudgement . And if there had bene any such titles allowed : yt would haue appeared in the superscriptions off bishops to archbishops . At least the lower degrees off Deacons / and Elders would haue acknowledged it / as both dutie / and honest ciuilitie requireth : otherwise if the archbishops had bene froward / they would not haue red the letters . But not Eusebius onely / Denys the Bishop / who wrote vnto the church off Athenes / so called him euen in that place / where Euseb. li. 3. ca. 4. & 4. 23. ( if he could truly ) he would haue awakened those of Athenes / with the honorable mention off Denis their former archbishop : and not haue let passe that weight off autoritie / to haue made his admonition more sounding .

Furthermore if Eusebius had spoken so vnproperly : he is yet to be charged with further confusion . For he assigneth hym a parish / which is a territorie belonging vnto a simple bishop : and not a prouince / which is an archbishops kingdom . Yf therfore he confounded archbishop with bishop : at least he should haue spoken dinstinetly off their charges . Last off all / how idle a pharisie this is off Denises archbishoprick / may be considered forasmuch as Euseb. in both places by me alledged / calleth him the first bishop off Athenes . And that he was first in those partes may easely be seene / for that it was the wisdome of the holy gost / to settle first the Gospell in the mother townes / and head places of dominion● : that from thence it might haue passadge to places rownd about / as the practise in the Actes doth declare . Now if he were the first bishop chosen after the conuersion of Athenes : by the D. saying he was made Archbishop / before there were any other bishops to ouersee . But forasmuch as th archbishop is in the nombre of those which hang of other / and that there could be no archbishop where there were no bishops / nor bishop where there were no churches rownd about : it is browght to passe / that there being no bishops in those partes / at that time when Saint Paul ordeined Denys bishop : he can by no meanes be thowght to haue ordeined him archbishop . And that which I haue saied in this point against the archbishoprick off Denis ( the last onely excepted ) is to be vnderstanded off Iames / Titus / Timothe / &c.

Yf a spade be but a spade / and a fig but a fig : then a bishop is but a bishop . Then also Erasmus saying ( alledged pag. 405. ) Diuis. 10. pag. 325. that Timothe was a bishop / and no where that he was an archbishop / affirmeth that he was but a bishop . Nether doth this make against , but for me . For if Erasmus speaking but of two / called one of them archbishop : is it like that Eusebius speaking of so many / supposed archbishops / called neuer one of them by their proper name ? nether will I stick to confesse / that Erasmus deceiued with the corruption of times wherin he liued / spake as he thowght : imagining Titus an Archbishop / as left in Creta an Isle / and Timothe a simple bishop / as left in one cytie . But it is good to obserue by the way / how the Ans. building with one hand / ouerthroweth with the other . For let all men that haue but a graine of salt / iudge how likely it is / that Timothe was Archbishop : when so many writers both ould and new / yea some in those times that archbishops were / speaking of him : not one calleth him archbishop / but all bishop / as in his treatise may appeare . but thus their tounges must be confounded / that build vpp Babylon . Pa. 404. As for Titus whom Erasmus calleth archbishop / to make his autoritie of any weight / he muste needes raise that title ether of some name giuen vnto him in the scripture : or of some effect which he was knowen to excute / proper to an archbishop : or els off some auncient writer . But he could not raise it of any title the scripture giueth him / there being none such : nor off any thing Titus did / forasmuch as there is nothing doon off him / which the Ans. affirmeth not to be commen to euery bishop / nothing prescribed to him / which was not prescribed to Timothe / whom Erasmus calleth simply bishop : nor off any auncient writer / there being none browght / nor as I am perswaded can be browght : therfore it is cleare / that Erasmus calling Titus archbishop hath no weight : as one which spake according to the corruption off time / wherin he liued .

The rest of this diuis . is answered before : for the next / let yt In 3 diui. pag. 320. be iudged how yow haue ouerthrowne that alledged / towching Timothe / and Tite being Euangelistes . I will also refer to the readers iudgement / what vnlearnednes yt ys to confute autoritie by better autoritie : and in what place the D. will haue vs receiue mens autoritie / when he will not haue them controlled by other men . How by this meanes he that hath the first place to speake / may stop the mouth off all that follow : forasmuch as yt shall be vnlawfull for them / ether owt off the autors which the first speaker alledged / or any other / to oppose a contrary sentence . How also this being so vnlearnedly doon off me / is notwithstanding learned in him : which hath vsed it diuers times . I leaue also to be iudged / how to the pourpose he hath alledged thes examples off Iustice , and cheif Iustice , seing I helped him with this kinde off diuision : and yt might haue easely appeared that my argument was / that forsomuch as the Scoliast called them simply bishope : therfore yt could not be thowght / that he esteemed them archbishops / which is opposite member in this diuision . Last of all how absurdly ys it saied / that he which calleth an archbishop a bishop / speaketh properly ? When he that hath litle more then learned his Grammer / knoweth that it is a Trope / wherin the generall is taken for the speciall : which is contrary to proper speach . Diuis. 12. pag. 326. &c.

To the first reason / I haue shewed what mighte lead Erasmus / to cal Titus archbishop ouer Crete / and not Timothe ouer Ephesus . To the seconde / I am content that my reason off framing titles according to times , be nothing worth : yf Erasmus in a matter off diuinitie / and hauing the vaile off corrupt tymes to hinder his sighte / could not be deceiued : which erred in many thinges , and in those he sawe was ofte more * * That is halting of both sydes . Cretian / than Christian . The third ( Erasmus did not gyue Titus a title according to the custome off that age wherin him selfe lyued , for that there was then no bishop of Crete , ●s there was of Rome when Vincentius lyued ) ys sensles . Consydering that my answer is apparante / that in speaking of Titus / he applied him selfe to the coustome which had preuailed in all places / off calling the bishops off the metrapolitane cyties / archbishops : which this answer towchech not . Let him shewe one approued autor for the name of archbishop / or patriarch once onely vsed in Eusebius time / or before / to note the superioritie off one bishop ouer all his fellowes / and wee will all clap our handes vnto him : if he can not / then yt ys shame to say / those names were vsuall in Eusebius tyme . That Nicephorus spake no otherwise off Victor then yow haue set downe / yt is all one to me : which pourposed to shew that he spake otherwise / then ether Eusebius / or the trwth would suffer / hauing regard vnto the tymes wherin he lyued So that my vntrue reportes off autors , are such as they are no more beficiall to my cawse / then if I had vsed their very wordes . For my answer made vnto Volusianus / and Erasmus / that men vse to speake / and to thincke for the moste parte of thinges past / by the measure off thinges present : yf yt had no examples to warrant yt with / yet yt is so manifest / and sensible / that I durst barely leaue yt to the conscience off all . and yf the D. would gyue the rule of his toung / but a litle into the hand of his conscience : I dowbt not but he would also confesse yt ? Howbeit we haue a manifest example in the Centuries / which confessing there was no Metropolitane Cent. 3. c. 7. pag. 368. in Cyprians time / call him Metropolitane Another in Cornelius / whom M. Philpot calleth patriarke of Rome : when all know that ther was no patriarke many yeares after him . Laste off all / when yt happened vnto me to call Cyprian Metrapolitane / which am an enemy to that estate ( as I am also charged therwith by the pag. 470. D. ) following therin the custome off the tymes which folowed : pag. 470. how muche more might that befall to others / which had no such combat with that office ? That next conteining vaine excuses / to salue ether his ignorance / or his vnfaithfullnes / I haue a a Diuis. 1. pag. 319. answered . His escape that Iames called bishop by Eusebius ( to whom may be adioined b b in catalogoscripillust . Ierome ) yet might be Archbishop , I haue c c Diuis. 9. pag. 325 confuted . The plenty off testimonies for the Archbishop , browght now / hideth not his pouertie in his fyrst boke . for all may know that this haruest cam in sithens . For the exposition of Ireneus / which interpreteh ( they , euery one seuerally : yf they seuerally ordeined bishope euery one in his circuit / so it be vnderstanded with the churches consent , as is before d d in 2. Tract. Diuis. 14. pag. 329. declared : I am well content .

Yf the error off my argument had bene so grosse , as yowr sight had perceiued yt : I had bin sure to haue heard of yt . Whatsoeuer / and how many cawses soeuer yow assigne of appoincting an archbishop : yet this is a perfect diuision off the subiecte / that forsomuch as the Archbishopricke ( if any owght to be ) muste needes be both in some person / and place : not found by th apostels ordination which knewe the best gouernment / nether in that person / nor place both most fittest / and moste likest to receiue yt : yt muste folow that yt owght not to be . As for yowr exception off the time : fyrst yt is your manner that yow might be thowght to haue store off answer / to make fowre off one . for wheras the tyme , and persons to be gouerned , the suppression off sectes , and peace off the church ▪ are put for seuerall cawses : yt ys manifest that one time maketh no difference off gouernement from another / but in respecte off the persons gouerned : nor the persons them selues / but in respecte of their contentions / and alteracion of disposition . Then it shall appeare after / that the tymes off persequution suche as those ) were the fittest for that office : yf that had bene conuenient .

This Archbishop saied to be the officer off order / confoundeth all order / and changeth all : an Euangelist into a bishop / a bishop Diuis. 15. pag. 329. into an Archbishop / an archbishop into an Apostel / an Apostle into an Archbishop which folies are before confuted . If S. Iohn were Archbishop / or did an Archbishops office in those places / where he abode : then the other Apostle . in their circuites did the like / and were likewise Archbishops ouer them / and the bishop there . so it foloweth that ether there were no Archbishops in the Apostles tymes : or if there were any / they had nothing to doo / their offices being not yet fallen / but in the Apostles handes . And if the Ans. will needes haue S. Iohns antoritie / the pose to measure owt the Archbishops autoritie yt muste folow that forasmuch as he had the care / and ouersighte of all churches in the world : the Archbishop must haue the same . For the next section / lett the reader iudge / whether I haue delte syncerely : and whether in saying Anaclete , and Anicete are but suspected , although he ad ( not without iuste cawse ) he leaue to them some credit . For the next also ( of the yeare wherin the Nicene councell was houlden ) being not to pourpose / althowghe I could mainteine the account I folowed / I will leaue the Ans. in his earnest disputation : whose practise is to handle trifles earnestly / and earnest thinges triflingly

The leape is as great as I haue saied / and consequently as Diuis . 18. Pag. 331. &c. daungerous to th archbishops neck . For yt falleth still forth / that for the space off 300. yeares from the time off the Apostles / there is no syllable in any one approued autor / off any ether archbishop / or Metrapolitane . for as for the Canons attributed vnto the Apostles ( those onely excepted which are to be found in their writinges ) being as is agreed amongest men off any iudgement / gathered off diuers councels in sondry times : that which is here alledged off the Ans. was by all likelihood drawen owt off the councell off Antioch / hauing almost the very wordes theroff sauing as yt cometh to pas / yt being somewhat later / is somewhat worse . The councell of Antioch / a good while after that of Nice / can not make the fall off th archbishop les daungerous . As for the fable off Archbishops in Englande in Euleutherius tyme / yt is before confuted . So that if a Metrapolitane were all one with an Archbishop : yet he is destitute of the testimonie off the purest / and best tymes . Where the D. thincketh those wordes off the councell off Nice ( Let the auncient custome be kepte ) will saue his necke , and his body from harme : he is deceiued . For this word auncient / being in nomber off those / which haue relation / and depend of others : signifieth a greater / or smaller time according to the thinges wherwith it is compared / or hath relation vnto . so that that maie be / and often is called auncient / which is but of very fewe yeares : and which other sometime can not be so called / withowt a greater nomber . The bishops therfore comparing that decree / with other made at that tyme / and not before / called that an auncient custome .

And yt can be no straunge kinde off speach for the ministers being assembled together / to speake off a matter continued a score off prouinciall Synodes / and houlden in the space off 10. yeares / after this sorte : In suche and such thinges , wee will kepe our old coustome . And that yt could not be long before the councell off Nice beside no testimony to the contrary ▪ Aeneas Sy●uius gyueth this for vs : before the Nicene councell euery bishop lyued Epist. 288 vnto him self , and smale regard was had to the bishops of home . But admit yt had bene so before the councell off Nice / 20. yea 30. yeares yet by yowr owne counte / there is no mention off him all that time which I haue affirmed / which is 300. yeares after our Sauiour Christes ascension . Now therfore that the auncientie off the Metrapolitane / appeareth not by this councell to be other / then I alledged : Let vs see what credite yt owghte to haue to proue that this decree off theirs was good . For therunto the D. regardeth when he saith / the notable , and famous councell off Nice , muste be off all wise , and learned men nexte vnto the scriptures reuerenced , &c. It is sure that hauing regard to the decision off the different / touching the perfect vnitie off substance / of our Sauiour Christ with God the Father / it giuing sentence vppon the vnfallible word off God / is worthy to be reuerenced . But if the D. will haue their soundnes in that poincte / autorise the rest / and that our reuerence to yt should close vp our mouthes / from demaunding from whence the other canons come / what ground they haue : yt is that which we can by no meanes consent vnto .

And that yt may appeare how iustly we call this canon off the councell / vnto the towch stone of the word off God / let it be considered what is ordeined off them in the 12. and 23. Canons after Ruffin : where they prescribe seuen yeares vnto one fallen in . 1. lib. 6. c. to Idolatrie / all which tyme ( althowgh very repentante ) they forbid him the supper off the lord : where also yt kepeth owte one which coming from the warr retourneth thether againe / by the space off thirtene years / &c. which seueritie ( to let pas the rest ) as yt is againste the rule of S. Paule : so yt could not but put a halter 2. Cor. 2. 7 in the deuiles hand / to snare a nomber of soules with all . what corruption there was further at that time / ether by ignorance / or ambition / may appeare by that if one Paphenutius had not beene : they had all concluded against the honorable societie off bishops 1. lib. Soc. 11. cap. / elders / and Deacons with their lawfull wiues . Yf the Ans. say / thes errors were but the errors off those bishops onely / but the canon off a Metrapolitane hath beside their allowance / the approbation off the former times also / so that althowgh their single autoritie be not hable to waie yt downe / yet helped with the auncient coustome before / yt will carie yt away : I answer Ibid. that in the same councell appeareth / that to those chosen vnto the ministrie vnmaried / yt was not lawfull to take any wife afterwardes : onely being maried before entrance into the mynistrie / it was lawfull for them to vse the benefite of that mariadge . And Paphenutius sheweth / that not onely this was before that councell : but was an auncient tradition of the churche / which both him selfe / and the reste off the councell rested in . what soeuer credit therfore in any respecte / cometh vnto the Metrapolitane by this sixt canon : the same in euery : point cometh to this so great a corruption / that nether single ministers might mary / nor those which entred maried / might after death of their wiues mary againe Yf the fame of the councell can not wipe away the infamy of this : nether can it of that : and if the auncient tradition of the church / doo not autorise the one : nether can auncient coustome / autorise the other .

The Ans. before / for one onely error touching rebaptising / Pag. 147. casteth away the whole councell of Carthage : I will not deale so rowghly with the councell off Nice onely I desire that their autoritie be lifted vp no higher / then yt hath state off the word off God . Howbeit it must not be let goo in this canon off Nice ( which is the ouerthrowe of all that the Ans hath said before ) that saying this was oulde coustome , it confesseth therby that it was no ordinance of God wheras if it came from S. Peter / Paule / &c. they would haue said according to the institution off the Apostles . it is also worthy to be obserued / that the iurisdiction the Metrapolitanès had in their prouinces / was before onely voluntary / and vnconstrained : for that this was the firste time / that any lawe passed of yt : which noted off me in an other place / is here well confirmed . so that thes wordes the old coustome , which the D. putteth so great affaince in / if he make his accompts well / shall be found to haue bene a reed of Egypte vnto him : wherupon he leaning / is not staied but pricked .

To proue that the name off archbishop was not before the Diuis. 19. pag. 332. councell off Nice / nor within three hundred yeares after the ascension off our Sauiour / I shewe that there is no mention off him in Theophilus / Ignatius / Clemens Alexandrinus / Iustine / Martyr / Ireneus / Tertullian / Origine / Cyprian / in the histories owt off which Eusebius gathereth his storie / nor in Eusebius / nor ( in a word ) in no alowed writer / nether greeke nor latin / within that space . The D. asketh whether the councell off Nice , Antioche , Epiphanius , &c. be not as good ? all which are bothe later writers then those I alledged : and after the 300. years before assigned . So that to proue the antiquitie off the name off Archbishop / and Metrapolitane / he saith in effect / yt is all one to alledge the stories / and writers which came after / as those which wente before : and to proue that thes names were with in 300. yeares after Christ / he alledgeth stories / and other writers which testyfie thes titles to haue bene after 300. yeares : which how absurde yt ys / all men vnderstand . And what likelihoode off trwth yt hath / that thes names were within 300. yeares / and od / when as not one onely writer hauing so often occasion to speake off them / doth once name them : it may be considered partly of that the bishop writeth . For as he asked Harding / was there no man in the world for the space off 600. yeares , hable to expresse the name off vniuersall Art. 4. diuis. 31. bishop : So I aske the D. was there none in the world by the space off 300. yeares / and od / hable to expresse the metrapolitans name ? no man for the space almost of 400. yeares / hable to expresse the archbishops name ? partly also I leaue yt to be considered / off that I haue saied before .

Then he must vnderstand / that as those stories / and writers he alledgeth / make nothing to proue that antiquitie which he supposeth : so they being further from the Apostles times / and nearer vnto the time off Antichrist / are not off so good credit / to proue the lawfullnes off that ether office / or name / as if they had had testimonie of the purer times . moreouer off thes sixe autors which he maketh mention off / two wroote after 400. yeares : all the rest wrote from abowte 350. yeares / vnto the prick off 400. And althowgh he hath browght owt so smale a number : yet he must be faine to cut off halfe off them / as those which make no mencion off the archbishop . for nether Chrysostome / nor Ierome / no not Ambrose ( as shall appeare ) in their so great workes / make any mencion off him . Where I shewed that as the ced●● off Liban can not be hydden amongeste the Box trees , so the archbishop coulde not haue bene hydden in the ancient writinges amongest the other Mynisters : and further / that if he were , he was contemned off them , which once woulde not defyle their pen by writing off him : the Answ. as thowghe thes perteined not to the matter / vnder coulor of calling them frumpes , passeth by them wheras a few such frumpes will breake the archbishops backe / if they be not better looked vnto .

The Ans. can neuer be holden in the railes off any lawfull forme off disputacion . All men see that whatsoeuer he heapeth Diuis. 2● . Pag. 3 , 8 ▪ &c. vp / toucheth not my reply . For he owght to improue the signification which I haue set downe / off the word Metrapolitan bishop : which is , to be nothing els then bishop of that cytie , which yt pleaseth the Emperour , or Prince to make cheife : and therfore that ●f the office swell no more then the name / there is great difference betwene his / and th archbishops name . This becawse he could not doo / the signification being so cleare : he starteth a syde / and goeth abowte to proue / that Metropolitane and Archbishop are taken for the same . when the question is not here how they are taken / but what the wordes signifie . If he had shewed that the word metrapolitane bishop / is as loftie in signification / as the word archbishop : then he had spoken to the pourpose . Beside this / in a matter that is in controuersie amongest writers / he maketh his profes by bare autorities : the controuersie being not onely betwene the Ciuili●●s , and Canonistes , but also betwene others off our tyme .

Likewise it is to be obserued / how cuill he hath peeced thes together / bringing in M Caluin contrary vnto Maister Fox / in that the one maketh a Metrapolitane / and Archbishop to differ from a Patriarck / the other maketh them all one . M. Fox also to differ from himselfe : which in the second place alledged out off him / maketh difference betwene a metrapolitane / and primate : in the third / maketh them all one . Beside that also he is beside the forowgh off his cawse / he gaineth not that which he goeth abowght . For let vs admit that a metrapolitane / and Archbishop are taken for the same : yet therof foloweth not / that the name off an archbishop was in the church as soone as the name of Metrapolitane . For althowgh a Prophet / and a seer be all one / astranger / 1. Sam. 9. 9. Cicero 1 officiorum and an ennemie in war betokened one thing : yet nether haue the wordes the same signification / nether were they all at one time / but came one after another . For I would gladly know whether yt seeme vnto him / that all thes titles Metrapolitane / Archbishop / Primat / and Patriarch / came in at a clap . if there be no likehoode in this : yt foloweth that his autors meaning is not / that thes names were all at the councell off Nice : but after they crepte into the church / were attributed vnto one / and the same office off metrapolitanship / specified in that councell . For the autoritie ouer other bishops / which is gone abowte by this Nicene councell / to be proued like to that of our archbishops : that I make not with the Answ. a confusion off all / I will ( God willing ) shew in place / how the Nicene / and Antiochen Metrapolitane / haue beside the name / almost nothing in commen with our Archbishops .

Here will be no confession : yt was not enowghe for the Answ. before to alledge thes forged canons withowt correction / Diuis. 20. pag. 334. yea with commendation : but euen now also detected / rather then he will yeald to the trwth / the commen ennemy must haue the aduantage . He will not forsooth greatly sticke in the defense of thes canons : then he will not giue them quite ouer . There is no smale controuersie ( he saith ) abowte the number of canons of this councell : and a litle after / there is great difference in writers for the number of the canons . Let him name one ( Papistes excepted ) that euer moued controuersie abowte this number of 70 and 80. canons which he talketh off . Athanasius in an Epistle that he as some thincke writeth , &c. what some are those ? Pighius / Hosius / Harding / and their likes / and they doo but say yt : for that they did thincke so / there being nether coulor / nor shadow off trwth in that so kold a deuise / yt is hardly to be thowght . He saith after / he hath doone nothing straunge in alledging thes canons . I graunte : for he hath those spoken of before / to kepe him companie . And in the next diui. to make vp the matter / he alledged not those canons as the vndowbted canons of the councell off Nice , but as probable . Is it in deed probable / that there was such filthe in the church / in the time of the Nicene councell / as those canons you alledged make mencion of ?

The reasons wherby he would bring some credit vnto thes canons / are to light . For where he reckeneth vp certeine thinges found in other writers / not conteined in those canons : he should haue knowen that there might be other thinges handled in that councell / which were not browght into canons . For example / that which he reciteth owte off Ambrose / towching the second mariage off the clerckes , was talked on in the councell / as I haue shewed before : but yet there was no canon made off yt / as may appeare by the stories before alledged . For yt was browght in / not as a thing wherof they would consult : but alledged as a reason by Paphnutius / to bar that which they would otherwise haue decreed . As for the councell off Arles : yt speaketh not off the councell off Nice / but onely off a great Synode : and to restreigne that to that councell / is but a frierly note / which the gatherer off the councels maketh / to get some credite to those 70. canons / which the Ans. would thruste vppon vs . There were thinges alledged in the councell / which those nigh the times wherin yt was holden / might come to the knowledge off by reporte off those present at the councell : which make nothing for profe off a greater number off canons ▪ For it is not like that the Canons of the Nicene councell / wheroff euery Bishop throwgh the world ( as the Bishop off Salisbury proueth ) had a copie / were loste . And if there were suche a nomber as he woulde haue vs belieue : yet when the auncient writers which folowe so nere the councell / or liued in that time / could not come to the knowledge off them : ys it like that this vpstarte / not led with any desyre off searche off antiquitie / but as appeareth with a deuelishe appetite of aduancing the seate off Antechriste / should discouer suche a hoord of Canons ? But if this new recorder seeme vnto you to haue browghte the other canons to light : then belike he hath those yow cite owt off the Councell off Arles / off Ierome / and Ambrose . if not ( wherin I refer the reader vnto the Canons / not hauing the booke : ) then yt might haue bene argumente / that those canons came not owt of any store howse off learned monumentes / but owt of his one forge .

Yow saie yow agree with the bishop off Salisbury in his reply againste Harding touching the canon he alledgeth . The trwth is that you haue done the beste yow can / to ouerthrowt the whole defense off the bishop in that behalfe : which standeth in profe that those be counterfaicte / and that there were no other canons off the Nicene councell / then are commonly extant . And where yow say / Hardinges canon muste needes be counterfaict , becawse yt is contrary to the canons off that councell , but that which you haue alledged , and in those poinctes which you haue alledged them , to be of the same substance the. 6. and 7. firste those newe canons being off one litter / yf you giue credite to one / yow can not take yt away altogether from the rest . Secondly all those canons which are not contrary to any thing determined in the councell off Nice / haue by this answer gotten that credit / which the autoritie / and name of the Nicene councell can giue them . So that a nomber off wicked thinges which the Councell off Nice spake not againste / conteined within thes canons / are commenced by the Ans. for decrees off the great Nicene Councell / which were long after decreed in the Popes kitchin .

Thirdly where he saith the : 25. 26. 27. differ from the 6. and 7. but in number , and not in substance : beside that he taketh still for graunted which he should proue / he imagineth all those learned fathers of that Councell / des●●●ute of iudgement / and commen sense : which in setting downe one / and the self same canon fowre times / might worthely haue bene esteemed as bablyng dyuines / as Bat●us a Pocte . And if the Councell had bene so grosly ouerseen : yet how cometh yt to passe / that that escaped the abridgers ? Which are said for shortnes sake / to haue browghte the 80 , Canons into 70. Laste of al / to make this answer good / the reader must belieue / 〈◊〉 onely that some of thes canons which this forger hath added be true / and some false : but ( for as much as in the Canons alledged / the D. nowe seeth that all in them conteined / can not befathered of the Nicene councell ) that in the same canon / one peece is trwly / and another falsly fathered . As if we should not onely not take them for bretherne / which were begotten of one father : but in one / and the same child / to esteme that the head / and the foote is base / and the armes / and legges with the reste off the body / begotten in lawfull matrimony . Thus yt cometh to passe / that as the deformitie off the visadge is not helped / but made worse by peinting so the D. faulte / which mighte haue had some excuse in that he was abused / by this vaine defence is inexcusable . Where vppon I will leaue to the reader ( which foloweth in the nexte diuisi . ) whether vppon lighte credit vnto some dissembling papistes , he receiued thes thinges with owte examination : and whether in avoiding that / he maketh him selfe giltie off a greater faulte .

Where haue I refused ambrose for an historicall witnes ? perteineth this to the story / whether an Archbishop be profitable for Diuis . 22. & 23. pag. 336. the church / or no ? whether he were or no / perteineth : but whether meet / or vnmeet / is withowt the boundes off story . Yow had set downe that Ambrose alowed of an Archbishop : prouoked by me / you can not shew off his allowance . And yet becawse yow put me in remembrance off the story witnes / when I considered that nether the reste of his writinges / nor other writers off the same auncientie / and quarters / as Ierome / and Augustine / mention an Archbishop : yt made me suspecte greatly / that there was corruption in that place . After seing howe proudly / and swellingly he speaketh off bishops / and howe basely off kinges / saying the bishops are gold , and kinges in comparison off them but lead , and kinges muste put their nekes vnder the knees of the bishops , and kisse their right hand ( which speaches are ●a● vnlike Ambrose stile of kinges ) : considering also that Erasm. nippeth that booke in the head / I assure my selfe that yt is a false Ambrose / and therfore that testimonie to be of no force . Wherin I am yet further confirmed by Ambrose owne testimonie / who saying it is comely , that there 1. li. offic. cap. 50. should be equalitie in the churches : which taketh away bishops dominion . For seing that can not be vnderstanded off the whole companie of the church : yt is manifest that it muste be restreined vnto the mynisters theroff . and sauing this aduantage / I answer to the next diuis . that yt shall appeare after how straunge the name off the Archbishop was at that time .

For that alledged out off the Centuries / Ambrose was Metrapolitane off diuers churches ioined together : besydes that yow take that for graunted which is in controuersy / that is to say that the name of Metrapolitane / and Archbishop be all one : yow owghte to haue shewed the reasons wherby they say so . For seing they haue not that they wrote by reuelation : in a matter of controuersie they owghte no further to be belieued / then they shew reason . Otherwise I can oppose also autoritie which saith in plaine wordes / Ambrose was a bishop not of a whole prouince , or of Iohannes Costerius in vita Ambros . many cyties , but off one onely citie . whose testomony yet is so muche more off credyt / then that off the Centuries / as by a neerer sighte into Ambros . workes which he reuewed / he was better able to giue iudgement in this matter : then they which occupied in reading off so many / could not performe that diligente in all / which he in that autor he especially laboured in .

That I said of the Archbishop ( if any were ) ruling the action wherin the bishops were ordeined / and after the action ended hauing no more autoritie than the reste / is vnconfuted / by any writer yow alledge . Caluin ( the ignorance of whose writinges , with all otther , yow obiecte vnto me ) doth not onely not speake against yt : but saith in some respect more then I. For I speake this onely of the Archbishop / alledged owt of the counterfaict Ambrose : but he ( as I haue shewed ) saieth generally of those auncient times / that the Diuis. 71. pag. 418. office off the Archbishop was rarely vsed . And that I said not ( as yow vse ) withow reason : but with those reasons which yow lifting at / can not moue . For where I shewed yt not hke that one Archbishop ordeined bishops / but other bishops with him / Diuis. 24. pag. 336. whose voices he gathered / the auncient councells expresly forbidding that : yow say yow shewed yt not straunge at that time , for a bishop alone to ordeine ministers . Which thing howe vntrue yt is / I refer my selfe to that before said . And if yow had shewed yt : yet in 2. Tra. yow making difference betweene a minister / and a bishop / in prouing that one bishop onely ordeined mynisters / haue not proued that one bishop ordeined bishops . And in saying that Ambrose is to be vnderstanded , of that done by all bishops in all places : yow make them all gilty off breach off canons off the generall councells in that behalfe . Which how vntrwe yt is / may likewise appeare by that before said . Then how vaine is yt / that for that the people had in 2. Tra. to doo in the bishops election , one bishop alone withowt other his fellowes , did ordeine ? After he asketh . Where is nowe my distinction of election , and ordination . Firste I declared that they being for the moste parte distinguished / are sometime taken for one . Secondly I haue vttered no word wherby it is once towched . Thirdly yf I had taken yt away : yet : he same toucheth not this matter / as he saith / but nether sheweth / nor can shew how . onely hauing nothing to answer / he speaketh in the clowdes : where he is so far from being vnderstood of others / that I thinke he vnderstood not him selfe .

His answer ( Ambrose mente not off the Archbishop in the prouince where him selfe was bishop ) is firste vpholden by flatte begging of Diuis . 25. Pag. 337 : diuers thinges in controuersie : as whether an archbishop / and metrapolitan be all one / whether Ambrose were metrapolitane / and whether being / he had autoritie him selfe to forbid such disorders . Secondly that he alledgeth to remoue yt from Ambroses prouince / maketh rather against him . For if that corruption he complained of / were in all places : then it was in his prouince also : Where he saith I am deceiued , that I thincke he wrote his booke for his owne diocese onely : my wordes importe no such thing . yt is enowghe for me yf in the prouince where he was / this corruption had place : the further he will strech those wordes / the depelier he woundeth the gouernement off the archbishop . But this is more then dutie / vnto that counterfaicte Ambrose .

What truth this deuise hath / I am content yt be iudged of the Diuis 26. Pag. 337. reasons before alledged . my quotacion off the Centuries , was easie to find ? if yow had not helpe of the table / the time yt selfe would quickly haue directed yow . yt is in the beginning of the chapter which yow alledged / so that if yow had red any more then serued for yowr tourne : yow should haue found how he affirming / that in those daies there were but three principall degrees off the ●lergie / bishop / elder / and deacon : alledgeth for profe Ambrose . The name off Archbishop owte off Sozomen . maketh not againste this . considering that he writing abowte the yeare 430. calleth Simeon Archbishop / according to the time wherin he wrote / and not wherin Simion liued . Nether doth the place off Epiphanius ( alledged after owte of the Centuries ) make againste this . For albeit the name of Archbishop was in his time / which liued ether in Ambroses time / or somewhat before : yet there is no likelihoode that it was then receiued in the latin churches / seing none off their writers of those times / once make mention off that name . And it is certein that it being a greeke name / was firste receiued in the greeke churches / and Easte partes / or euer it came into the latin / and weaste .

Nowe for this great shewe the A. bringeth into the stage / they are scarce worth the looking on : they shall haue therfore a shorte answer . their autoritie shall be considered after / being here altogether owte off place / and contrary to the litle off his chapter / and ( according to the oulde coustome off repetitions ) propounded after : I here therfore deale onely with the names . And firste for that off Metrapolitan : yt is shewed that it is not the same in signification with the Archbishops : yt is confessed that it was in the time off the councell off Nice / before which yt can not be shewed / in any allowed writer . for where the D. citeth the Centuries / which call Cyprian which was before it / Metrapolitan : they doo so call him according to the coustome of times which folowed / as is before proued owt off their owne testimonie . As for the name of Primat / the firste tydinges of it is a great while after 400. yeares : which is without our compas . for the name off an Archbishop / the firste mention alledged off him in any councell / is nere vppon 500. years .

Where yt is said / the name of an Archbishop is attributed vnto Athanasius : he should haue tould who doth attribute that name / and then he had had his answer . For nether in his worckes / nor in any auncient writer that speaketh of him / is it found . Indeed a Lou●nist doth so call him : but he hath no credit in this cause . Where he alledgeth that the name of Archbishop is found in the 2. Apologie of Athanasius : if he shew ▪ Athanasius him selfe speaking so in his owne language / I belieue him : if he can not / he must change his stile / and in steed off Athanasius / say the translator off Athanasius . And beside that the Emperour set one Iohn a Miletian / ether heretike / or schismatike to be more then quarter master with him : yf yt be true that he hath so earnestly disputed before / that an archbishop , and Metrapolitan be all one , Alexandria being the metrapolitan citie pag. 334. onely / and the bishop therof the onely metrapolitan : yt muste needs fall owt / that where this other Archbishop is supposed off the D. to haue bene / there could be no archbishop / and consequently that that is the translatours faulte .

There remaineth onely Epiphanius , the firste off auncient writers that gaue this name place in his writinges . I am content therfore let this be the firste flight off that name in to the church : which being abowte the yeare off our Lord 389. at what time Ephanius florished / neere vppon 400. yeares : yt is apparant that both the Ans. ys greatly ouershot / which would make vs belieue this name to haue bene from the times of the Apostles : and that I kepte my selfe within my boundes / in saying the name off Archbishop can not be shewed in any allowed writer , by the space off 300 years after Christ . As for that he would proue yt to haue bene in Peter the bishop of Alexandrias tyme , which was before the Nicene cocell , becawse Epiph. doth call him Archbishop : yt hath bene often answered / that that title was not of the Person / but of the times wherin Epiphanius wrote . For when the writers before him / and those in Peters time / speaking off Peter call him bishop allwayes / Euseb. li. 7. ca. 32. and not archbishop / and not him onely / but Achilles / Alexander / and Athanasius / which succeded hym : ys there any man of so smail iudgement / as not to vnderstand that this alteracion off title / came off the alteracion off times ? So we see that off all the testimonies the Answ. hath mustred / there is not one that hath stricken one stroke / in the quarell off that antiquitie off the name off Archbishop .

The two next sections / I leaue to the Iudgement off the reader : sauing that besides the vanitie off th excuse of Basils pouertie / ioined with vntrwth / considering that Basil had not bene so small a while bishop in one place / and other / but he might haue gotten some wull on his thread beare gowne / if the fleese off his Archbishopricke had hand yt : yt shal appeare ( God willing ) that as this pouertie accompanied the bishops in perfequution : so the ordenary of all godly bishops off those times / and long after / which liued in great peace / was as far from this lordly estate / as the honest frugalitie off diuers mynisters with vs / is from the riotous porte off a bishop . As for my narrow search off a comma , wheroff he speaketh his pleasure : he might know that althowge a comma be but a litle pricke : yet yt ofte maketh a great matter . The greatnes off the metrapolitanship of Basile ouer Capadocia , was scarce a plowghe land in comparison off that which yow imagine . I for there were at the least two Metrapolitanships in Capadocia : one in Caesaria / where Selladius which succeded Basil was bishop / an other in Nissa / where Gregory Basils brother was . Beside Soc. lib. 5. cap. 8. that / if it were trwe yow say after / that Pontus perteined vnto the Bishop of Constantinople : Capadocia being in yt / Basil was his vnderling / and therfore no cause why he should be called so great a metrapolitan , as yow pretend . Diuis. 28. pag. 342.

Here destitute off all defense / he flieth from the cawse vnto by matters / partly vaine / and partly false : which I will void in as fewe wordes as I can / before I come to the poincte off the cawse . Where he saith Simeon th archbishop was a bowte the councel off Nice , and therfore no cawse to accuse those times , more then the former examples , and for profe alledgeth that he was martyred by Sapore : yf yt Niceph 7. lib. 20. cap. he trw that is written / Sapores beginning his reigne abowte the yeare of the lord 310. and reigning 70. yeares / yt might be well for any thing yet alledged / that he was martyred abowte the yeare 380 and yf we follow his accompte / yet yt is answered . Where he saith I declare my vnskillfullnes , in saying the bishop of Constantinople Diuis. 26. 337. chalenged not the preheminence ouer all : let yt be noted that the hunger he hath to reprehend my vnskillfullnes / presseth him so violently / that feeding one yt so gredyly / he hath not so soone swallowed / as he is compelled to regorge / and lay them vp againe . For in the nexte sentence reprehending me as if I had saied / that the bishop Pag. 334 off Constantinople chalenged the title off vniuersall Patriarche in the councell off Calcedon / he plainly affirmeth he did not chalenge yt : yet I say not that he chalenged that name / but onely that he mighte ordein bishops off Asia , &c. Where he woulde proue my vnskilfulnes , becawse Pelagius / and Gregory Bishops off Rome / write agaynste the Bishop off Constantinople for that cawse : in deede so he maie easely finde him selfe talke / yf when I speake of the bishop of Constantinople which was in the time off the Calcedon Councell / he talke off the Bishop off Connstantinople more then 100. yeare after . Whether this be ether to trifle / or not to know thes thinges the knowledge wheroff he so often chalengeth / let the reader iudge . Againe he saith / the name off vniuersall bishop , was offered vnto the bishop off Rome in the councell off Calcedon , and notwithstanding saith / yt was firste gyuen vnto the bishop of Constantinople in the Councell of Constantinople , being long after : Which are thinges vnlikely . For he making the Bishop of Rome / to begin his clayme to that tytle / so longe before : yt is not to be thought / that being then offered him / he would refuse yt . Which yf yt were true / the bishop of Constant . could not be the firste that had that title giuen him / in the Councell of Constant . long after .

But yowr lodes man here as in other places / hath seduced Pigh. 6. l. Hierar . Apolo. 2. part . c. 4. Diuis. 3. yow . For this was taken owt off Pighius / and obiected off Harding againste the bishop off Salisbury : vnto whom alledging for the proofe therof the Epistles off Pope Gregorie / the bishop answereth / he could not refuse that which was neuer offered him . And the trwth is / that not onely there is no such offer to be founde in that Councell / but thinges plainly repugnant . For yt saith expressely / the bishop off Constantinople shall haue equall Calced. 16. Actio . Cap. 28. preuiledges with Rome . And the same Councell gyueth the same honor throwghowt vnto the bishop off Constantinople / which yt gaue the bishop off Rome : sauing that becawse yt was the firste seate off the Empire / yt is content that yt shall haue the firste place . The same also may appeare by the second prouinciall Councell off Constantinople / where this is repeated 3. Cap. owt off the Calcedon Councell . Now seing this councell made the Bishop of Constantinople equall in priuiledges / and honor with the Bishop off Rome : yt muste needes be a meere fable off Pope Gregory / the Papistes / and our D. that this Councell offred vnto the Bishop off Constantinople / the title off vniuersall Bishop . Thus with my vnskilfullnes , I am constrained to make vp the gap / the D. laieth open vnto the Papistes .

Where he saith Constantinople required nothing , but according to the 6. canon off the Councell of Nice : he greatly erreth . For firste the priuiledges of the church of Antioche / in that councel were cleane dashed / and the whole state off the church being deuided into the rule off fowre / that is the bishop off Rome / Constantinople / Alexandria / and Ierusalem : the churches were browght into myserable seruitude / which may appeare by the Councell off Constantinople : which decreeing this afterward / autoriseth the canon off that matter / by the councell off Calcedon . Secondly wheras the Concil. Constant. 2 cap. 3. 6. Councell of Nice reserued to euery prouince her priuiledges / and honor wherof this was parte ( as appearethe by other decrees ) that the bishops of euery prouince should choose their metrapolitane : he off Constantinople toke a way thes priuileges / from the greateste parte off the churches throw owght the whole worlde : considering that he had by this councell / th appointing of the Metrapolitans off parte of Europe / and of all Asia / sauing a litle corner wherin they had pinned vp the bishop off Ierusalem . Thirdly yt is cleare / that not onely at the time of the Nicene Councell he had no suche large domynion : but his Iurisdiction long after / was shut vp within the bandes off Thracia onely / withowt hauing any thing to doo ether in Pontus / or Asia : as appeareth clearly both by Socrates / and by a former councell off Constantinople . Thus may the Answ. great skill / for the shew wherof he hath thus ranged from the cawse / easely appeare .

Now let yt be considered what is answered vnto the argument / wherby vppon the wordes of the councell off Carthage ( the bishop of the fyrste seat , should not be called the cheife off the Preistes , or the high preiste , or any such thing ) I concluded the title off the Archhishop forbidden . He saith that was made agaynste the bishop off Rome , and the meaning off that Councell was , that no bishop should be called by the name off vniuersall bishop : which is firste directly againste that he hath said before / off the title off the vniuersall bishop / offred in the Councell off Calcedon vnto the bishop of Rome . For if Rome desired not that title / yea refused it offered : then there was no such cause off the decree off the African Councells / to bridle it in the title off vniuersall bishop . Secondly this exposition bringeth manifeste force to the councells wordes . For if the name of an Archbishop be not sufficiently forbidden / by thes wordes ( Prince off the preistes ) which in the councells language confounding preiste / and bishop / is all one with the name off an Archbishop : yet it is forbidden by those wordes which folow / no bishop shall be called by any such name . And if that be not sufficient / 10 stop the waie againste suche trifling cauils as thes : yet the wordes that follow ( he shall onely be called the bishop of the firste seate ) are so plaine that he muste haue a very hard forhead / that will goe abowte to owtface them .

Moreouer Gratian addeth as a parte off this canon : but vniuersall bishop , let not the bishop off Rome himselfe be called . distin. 9● . Wherby is manifest how vaine the D. shifte is . For onles he had in the former wordes / mente all other bishops : there can be no place for thes / no not the bishop off Rome . and onles the councell had ment some other thing then vniuersall bishop / by thes wordes cheife preiste : ther is no place for thes / vniuersall bishop . For if wee should folow the D. exposition / wee should make the councell speak after this sorte : the bishop off Rome shall not be called vniuersall bishop : but vniuersall bishop , no not the bishop off Rome him selfe shal be called . Which when yt ys absurd / wee muste needee hold that this Councell prouided / not onely againste the ambition of the bishop off Rome / but off all other : and not againste the puffe of the name / of vniuersall bishop onely / but againste the smokeie title off Archbishop / Patriarch / &c.

Furthermore / in another councell which confirmeth the canons off this / it appeareth plainly / that that canon was made especially for the African churches / for the prouinces off Numidia / 4. Councell Carthage . Mauritania / and Tripolis . For Aurelius / and Musonius presidents off that Councell / in their Epistle to the Bishop off those prouinces / charge them that they had not kept those canons : and shew how some couered them selues by ignorance off them . And not onely the councell off Carthage / holden somewhat more then 400. yeares after Christe / forbiddeth thes loftie titles : but the councell off Carthage wherat Cyprian was / within 200. and od years after Christe / is found off the same iudgement with this / that no bishop should be called bishop of bishops So that to auoid this argument / the Answ. muste be compelled to say / that the bishop of Rome claimed the title off vniuersall bishop / within about 200. and 50. yeares after Christe : which althowghe he dare much / I thincke he dare not answer . Againe / he may vnderstande that he hath the bishop for partie . For he alledging owt off Origine / that the mynisters in the very time off Bishop off Sar. 4. Art. Diuis. 33. persequution whileste he liued / passed the owtrage off worldly Princes : addeth that for that cawse / this canon of the Councell of Carthage which I haue set downe / was made . Gyuing plainly to vnderstand / that it was to kill the yche off ambition in the whole order off ministerie : not as he beareth vs in hand / onely in respecte off one person . And if there be any credit to be gyuen vnto Gregory / there were nighe 600. yeares at the leaste run owt / or euer the bishop there / made claime vnto this title . For he saith / no bishop off Rome vntill his time , had taken to him self that 4. lib. Epist. 32. title off singularitie , or would euer consent to be called by so prophane a name , off vniuersall bishop .

Now let vs see his reasons . The first is / Celestinus bishop of Rome , claimed the hearing of matters in the Africane churches , as appeareth by the Africane Councell But how doth he not see that the Councell off Carthage / the Canon wheroff I alledged / was before that councell ? His answer therfore is / that the Councell off Carthage by way off Propheceye / decreed against the ambition off Celestinus / not then bishop . And althowgh this be absurd / yet that which followeth is yet more : that this canon should be to prouide againste the ambition of the bishop of Constantinople , which chalenged the name off vniuersall bishop / about two hundred yeares after this canon made . To vnderstand faultes so particularly / and prouide remedies so especiall against them before they be / requireth a higher watch tower / then any councell off bishops could euer clyme into . And as for the Africane councell / nether in the wordes alledged by the D. nor any other off that Councell doth it appeare / that the Bishop off Rome claimed the title off vniuersall bishop . But as Iulius bishop off Rome had doon at the Councell off Antioch / he owtreached in claiming the hearing off cawses / which perteined not vnto him . In which respect the Councell made a speciall chapter / that whosoeuer should appeale beyond the seas / should not be receiued into communion off any in Africk . Which chapter is not the 6. but 92. nether is it off titles , and Afric . concil . ca. 92. names , but off iurisdiction .

Where he saith / there were as hauty names in those times , as off Primat , and for proof prouoketh vnto the greek copie off that Councell off Carthage : there is no aduantage in the Greek copie / which onely maketh mencion off one first amongest the bishops : and he is greatly deceiued if he think / that to be first bishop / is as much as to be Prince off Bishops . For the Bishop off Rome in respect of the three other Patrigrckes / was first : yet not their Archbishop / but onely had the first place in their meetinges . Especially seing the Councell doth flatly forbid / that the first bishop amongest them should be called by that name / but onely bishop off the first seate . For that owt of maister Fox / that thes names Archbishop , &c. are not forbidden by this canon : I refer the reader to his owne worckes / with this remembrance that I haue shewed in the former booke / how Maister Fox counteth thes degrees ambicious . As for the name high priest owt of Ignatius : if need were it may be shewed both by reasons / and autoritie / that he is not off that auncientie the D. supposeth . Beside that he giueth it not to any one especially / but to all a like .

Affording yow fowre witnesses , I allowed yow one to many / Diuis . 29. Pag. 344. two off them being counterfaicte . And if he will haue parte off those decrees lawfull / and parte bastard : he muste shew that this was off Samasus / owt off some other then off this forger . Whether off thes true bishops was firste / maketh nothing to this question : yt is certein those yow haue alledged / are counterfaictes . But becawse Ierome which liued in the true Samasus tyme / maketh mention off an archdeacon / let yt be graunted to the D. which he desyreth : doth he thinke that Damasus mouth was so holy / that with once naming an Archdeacon / he could sanctifie th office for euer ? yes for he was a vertuous , learned , and godly bishop . But I haue shewed that amongest men / the beste ground beareth th●sseis . Yea what if the D. praise / wheroff he is so liberall when yt serueth his tourne / be to highe / and it be found that he was not so godly as he pretendeth ? what if althowgh the tyranny were not so great / as in his counterfaicre Damasus time / yet this Damasus off whom he would father th archdeacon / spake in the Dragons voice : when he shameth not to write that the bishop off Romes sentence was aboue all other / to be attended Soz. li. 6. 23. for in a Synode ? wherby still appeareth how dangerous yt ys / to fetche example off gouernement from those times .

To that I alledged off the names off Acoluthes / and Subdeacons / &c. auncient / and yet not conuenient : he answereth / peraduenture they were profitable . So the profite off th archdeacon being yet vpon the die / and in dowbt : wee muste notwithstanding haue him thruste vpon vs . To that off Monkes auncienter then thardeacon / he answereth nothing : but that yt foloweth not if they were vnlawfull , that th archdeacon is so . but yt foloweth well that if the monke / with others are antichristian / notwithstanding their auncientie : that yt is an euill proofe yow vse / that the archdeacons &c. are not Antichristian / becawse they were auncient : wherin stand all yowr proofes . Wheras he saith / his pourpose was onely to shew the antiquitie of thes names , and therfore I doo him wrong , which require he should haue browght the approbation of thes autors towching them : bothe he hath vndertaken to proue / that thes names are not against the word / and after he concludeth vpon thes testimonies / pag. 298. that thes names are not onely auncient , but allowed off the beste , eldeste , worthieste writers , and councels . So appeareth that my accusation is iuste / Pag. 348. and that he toke vpon him to great a bourden . As for the auncientie off the name Archdeacon / yt is not shewed before almoste 400. yeares after Christe : which times howe corrupte they were / hath in parte / and will after more appeare .

Can there be plainer wordes to proue that the Archdeacon was no minister / then those wherby Sozomene putteth difference Diuis . 30. Pag. 345. Soz. 7. lib. 19. ca. betwene an Archdeacon / and an elder / making them seuerall members ? And where he saith / by that reaso● the Archdeacon shoulde be no deacon , nor the bishop no preiste , considering that thes are there likewise distinguished : I merueill that he will dally after this sorte . For althowgh vnder the name off Deacon / and priest / th archdeacon / and bishop be comprehended : Yet who vnderstandeth not / that as when bishop / and archbishop are compared together / one doth not / nor can not comprehend the other : so deacon / and Archdeacon / there expresly compared / are opposed members / and can not be comprehended one of another . For Deacons being deuided into archdeacons / and those called by the commen name of Deacons / likewise priestes into bishops / and which are commenly called priestes ( onles we will imagine that Sozome could not tel how to speake ) we must needes take them for distinct members . Further if the Archdeacon be comprehended of any the rest of members in this place / it is vnder the Deacons : and if he be conteined vnder a priest also / then bothe the Deacon which comprehendeth an archdeacon / must be conteined vnder priest / and Sozome is yet more ridiculous / which of one onely coustome hath made fowre . Beside that / Ierome opposing an archdeacon vnto an Epist. ad Rust. monach. arch elder / or in yowr language archpriest / saying euery church hath her archdeacon , and archpriest : declareth manifestly / that the archdeacon was no priest . And by Gregories epistle / which writing vnto the archdeacon off a certein church / maketh the title vnto the Deacon off such a church : appeareth that the Archdeacon Epist. 1. lib. 10. was not a priest / but a Deacon .

It is a simple exception against the Councell off Vrbane / that it is not to be found in the tome off Councells , especially when I cite Diuis. 31. pag. 346. it but for a storie witnes : seing there are some Councells of more weight owt off that booke / then some in yt . When Sozome tieth the archdeacon to the church of Alexandria / as well as the Elders / and Deacons / onles he will say that the Elders / and Deacons were not tied vnto that church : he must confesse that the archdeacon was . Which if it were not cleare by Sozome / is manifest by the wordes of Ierome / and Gregory before recited . Where he saith / we haue no archdeacon not tied to one church : seing he is called the archdeacon off such a shire / and hath his office not in one / but a hundred churches : I leaue it to the readers Iudgement / with what boldnes he determineth to owtface all truth . Likewise I leaue to his iudgement / whether Ieromes wordes ( which to declare the Ierom. ad Euag. manner off the bishops election / bringeth for example the choise of the archdeacon by the Deacons ) be cleare to proue that I haue alledged them for : and how friuolous he is in his shiftes / as thowgh it were so strange a thing / for the soldiers to choose their Capitaine : and how he taketh it for graunted / that it is not materiall who chose the archdeacon / which is before confuted : and last of all / how well he concludeth / that forasmuch as a bishop is aboue a Deacon , therfore he is aboue the whole colledge off Deacons . Likewise how soundly he hath answered vnto the 2. next sections : which to auoide the subiection off the archdeacon vnto the minister / is driuen to denie that an Archdeacon is a Deacon / which notwithstanding affirmeth that an Archbishop / is a bishop : yt being also before shewed / that Gregorie calleth an archdeacon Deacon / and being more clearer then the day / that as the archelder was both an Elder / and vnder any bishop : so the Archdeacon was a Deacon / and of right vnder any Elder . Considering that Ierome speaketh of that Deacon / at whose testimonie an Elder was made : which one may easely vnderstand / to haue bene an archdeacon .

I leaue the thinges before handled / off Residence on a certein place for euery minister : here is question onely / what likelihood Diuis 33. pag. 347. our Deanes haue with the ould . Which becawse the D. will not perceiue / I must be compelled to shew Augustines wodes to him better . First therfore the Deanes were monkes ( for Ierom. ad Nepot . & ad Rust. often monkes one was Deane ) and consequently not ministers : when it is manifest by stories / that the ould monkes were not onely no ministers of the word / but not so much as within any order ecclesiasticall . Secondly it was a reproche for those monkes / and Deanes to be in any citie / or great towne : seing that a citie Ierom ad Rusticum . Sozom 1. lib. 13 , was a prison vnto monkes / and agreed vnto them as drie land vnto fish . Thirdly their profession was to labour / and to gaine their liuing by hand : nether was it lawfull for them otherwise to liue / so that he that did not labour / was esteemed as a theefe : beside that / their diet was very homely / and grosse . Hetherto I think there is nothing like with our Deanes . Now where the Answ saith / the Deanes were set ouer the other 9. Monkes , and so in their rule resemble ours : he forgetteth that their rule was but in prouision for meate / and playing the part off their Cater / wheroff they made account vnto the Father . Of whom there was no cawse the D. should make mention here : but that he finding no deanly autoritie in this poore Deane / would faine make it owt in the father : whilest he would make the reader belieue / that the Father / and Deane / were all one .

Where he saith / thes were godly societies which Augustine speaketh off : I will not denie but that Ierome / and August . with others commend them / as it is not hard to shew that discommend them : Theodor. li. 4. ca. 11. but that they were so ( what shew soeuer they bore ) being instituted besides the warrant off the word / I vtterly denie . Wherin I will refer my self to the treatises off diuers learned men / which haue handled that matter : that I be not compelled here to set vpon this vermin / which the Ans. raiseth againe from hell / to help the office off the Deane . it is enough to haue shewed / that beside the name / and institution withowt warrant of Gods word / they haue nothing in commen . As for the vnspeakable profit he saith they bring vnto the church , it is but his coustome with riotous / and ouerrunning wordes / to supply the beggerie of his reasons : and yt is confuted in an other place . There remaineth one testimonie pag. 472. perteining to this question off th archbishop / taken owt of Beza / wherby the Ans. would proue thes names good / and holy . Wherunto before I answer / to th end yt may appeare that the D. doth but hunt after wordes / contrary to mennes constant practise / and manifest writinges : I am compelled here to open / what Bezaes iudgement is off them .

a a vpon 13 Act. First I haue shewed before / how he holdeth that the name of dominion , wheroff the Archbishop / and archdeacon be made / doth not agree vnto the ministerie . Secondly / in b b vpon 1. Philip. an other place he so far misliketh / that any should be called archbishop / that he saith the order which for policie sake was taken in the auncient church , that one onely amongest the Elders of euery churche , should haue the name off bishop , or president , was the first foundacion which the deuill laied off tyrannie in the churche . After it came to Metrapolitanes , which they call archbishops : which distinction had notwithstanding a glorious pretence , that Synodes might be the easelier called , and some order kept in gouernement of thinges . Then , to fower Patriarches : from fower to two , from two to one , which is the Pope . In the end for conclusion he addeth : behold what it is to goe a naile breadeth , from the word off God . Thirdly / that the auncient Confess. 5 ca. art . 29 fathers established amongest the bishops Metropolitanes / he confesseth a good intent : but forsomuch as that horrible tirannie which proceded off them , did ruine the churches , and now hindereth the reformacion off them , we will ( saith he ) content our selues with the coustome , and order off the Apostles , &c.

But what will the D. say to that he saith / Archbishops , In his Epist. ep. 1. and Primates are a shadow , and image of the policie of Rome , which came in by litle , and litle ? that he calleth them pety tyrantes in respect off the Pope ? that althowgh the names be neuer so auncient , yet it owght to haue bene inquired whether it were lawfull to bring them into the church : and if it were , yet whether it be expedient now in this regeneration off the gospell , to set vp a fresh , or to abolishe them ? that he saith / it is an other reason of a Bishop , Pastor , Deacon , Elder , as those which are instituted by the holy gost ? that he is so far from allowing Archbishops / that our kinde of bishops he calleth counterfaict bishops , reliques of poperie such as will bring in Epicurisme ? that all which wil the churches safe , must take heede of that pestilence ? that M. Knox which had put them to flight / should take heede that he suffred them not to come in againe , althowgh it pretend to haue great force to kepe vnitie , vnder which pretence it deceiued the auncient Fathers ? Thus yt appeareth what Bezaes iudgement is / both off thes names / and offices .

Now I retourne to the places alledged off the D. Where he is saied to affirme that archbishops , &c. are called in scriptures by one commen name off Pastors , and Bishops : his wordes can not be referred vnto the name / or office of Archbishop . For considering there is no mention off them in scripture / the scripture can not call them Pastors / and Bishops : especially seing he sheweth how they are Pastors / in respect off administration off the word / and Sacramentes / not in that they rule ouer Bishops : in which regard onely it is confessed that they were called Archbishops / &c. Where he affirmeth him to call the names holy : the names which he calleth holy / are the names of Apostles / and bishops / not of archbishops &c. which may appeare by that following ( and therfore they glory off the succession off the Apostles , and true Bishops ) . For seing they conuey them selues vnto the succession off the Apostles / and Bishops vnder the cloke off names : what names are so fi● to disguise them / that they might be so taken / as those ? And where he saith / he reckeneth vp archdeacons , Canons , Seniors , Deanes , subdeacons , clearkes amongest degrees taken owt off the word off God , and from the Primitiue church : fyrst he hath not they were taken , but they seeme to haue taken , &c. Then if the auncient church be taken / for that almost 400. yeares after Christ ( as yt may be / compared with that ●00 . yeares after Christ ) : we deny not but thes names were in the Primitiue church Moreouer the Ans. to help the Dean / hath falsified Beza / translating for Deacon , Deane : which haue no more kindred / then a mat and a mattock . Last off all / if he could haue brought this testimonie owt off Beza / for allowance off names : yet he should haue bene afraied to haue vsed this aduantage / seing that place ministreth moe weapons to beate / then to defend him . For there he condemneth flatly / as a rable , and filthy assemble of monsters , vnheard off in the auncient church , the degrees of Suffraganes , Officials , Proctors , Vicares , Chapleines , &c : none off which I suppose the D. may well spare / in vpholding that estate which he phansieth so good .

I appele not vnto the Apostles times onely / but vnto the doctrine / Diuis. 36. pag. 349. and order established : where we are sure there is light withowt darcknes / truth withowt daunger off errors . And if we leauing th apostles / should take a patron off gouernement off men / which may be deceiued : yt owght rather to be drawen from the Apostles times / then from those 500. yeares after : those being so much purer / as they were neerer the incomparable brightnes of the gospell which shyned then / and further from those mistie times off Antichrist / wherwith after the whole earth was ouercast . For if this man off sin being in the eg in th appostles time / receyned by litle and litle continuall increase / vntill he came to his full growght : I see not why there was not as great oddes / betwene the purenes off the church in th apostles time / and that 500. yeares after / as betwene this / and that 1000. yeare after the Apostels . And if there were no remedie against the corruptions off those purest times / but in taking heed to the light which the Lord had set vp in the doctrine / and gouernement off th apostles : how muche more for remedie against such palpable darcknes / as couered the face off the earth in our times / owght we to haue resorted vnto that perfect / and vnmedled light ? not vnto them whose both heauens were darker / and sight dimmer : and which beside greater night within them selues / by reason off their infirmitie / had lesse day withowt by reason of the glowmie times . To that alledged / and confirmed / that thes dignities off Metrapolitanes / archbishops / &c. were as the handes that pulled , the feet which browght , the shoulders that lifted vp the Pope into his seat , which otherwise he could neuer haue atteined vnto : the Ans. saith onely / that sectes , and heresies gaue strenght vnto Antichrist : which is nothing to pourpose / as thowgh both thes coulde not stand well together .

Where he saith / the writers , and Councells off 500. yeares , laboured to kepe owt Antichrist , and therfore thinges taken from them , can not iustly be suspected : I merueill he vnderstandeth not / first / that diuers off that auncientie he speaketh off / and off the cheifest a a Athana fius quaes . 29. & 30. Ambr. 10 lib. vpon Luke . ca. 13. Ierom vpon Daniell 9. 11. of them / knew not what Antichrist was : but imagined fnodly of him / as of one singular person / and that he should starte vp soudenly / &c. that Elias should come to destroie him / that he should be borne of the Iewes / that he should raigne in Ierusalem / and diuers other suche fables . Secondly / that he remembreth not the ignorance off men to be such / that they often times make him a bridge / against whom they thinke to stop the passage . Thirdly / that being oftentimes ouermastred off their affections / with hinderance off the truthe / they giue somewhat to them . Further / that errors / and heresies ( as he saithe ) strengthening Antechriste : he coulde forgette the manifolde errors / which are to be founde in the fathers of the time he prescribeth . Laste off all / if he coulde be ignorante off thes thinges : yet examples off our daies might haue tawght him / that euen now there be which knowing Antichriste / and detesting him / cease not to mainteine thinges / wherby that kingdome partly standeth .

Where he saith / no man of modesty , and learning , will condemne orders of that time withowte manifeste proofe , especially in gouernement : I would gladly knowe of him why he should add / especially in gouernement . what reason can he shewe / why we shoulde not call their gouernement to as narrow a searche / and as streight a trial / as their doctrine ? When as yt can not be but where the Doctrine is attainted / the infection theroff muste nedes come vnto the discipline : especially when the Mynisters / which sitte at the sierne off gouernement / be seased with that euill . And the discipline of the churche being the wall / wherwith the doctrine ys kept safe : as in a citie the wall is that which feeleth the firste assaulte / and is battered before the citie can lie open to the violence off the artillery : so in the siege off the churche by spirituall ennemies / the discipline / and gouernement is that / wherinto the firste breache is made . So that hauinge good cawse to holde for suspecte / whatsoeuer either in doctrine / or in gouernement those times lefte vnto vs / not confirmed by substanciall proofes owte of the worde : we haue yet better cawse to mistruste their gouernement / as that which hauing abidden the greatest brunte / hathe more neede off reparacions . This appeareth in the firste Councell of Nice / Concil Nic. 11. 12 13. can before towched . where the moste off errors decreed vppon / were in the discipline / and not so much in the doctrine : beside the vngodly coustome / which may appeare to haue occupied almost all the churches / towching the forbidding of the second mariadge off ministers / before that councell .

Furthermore / I would know what charter the Answ. can shew / that the firste 500. yeares ( within compas wherof he hathe browght his testimonies ) be iuste the time off the primitiue churche / nether more nor lesse . But thus muste he doo / that hauing nothing els / he might with this glorious title off the primitiuē churche / dasell the eies off the simple . Laste off all / when he saithe there was no function browght into the churche the first 500. yeares / alowed by generall councell / or credible writer / not meete for that time / and alowable by the worde off God : besides the grosse demaund off that in question : I woulde know off him wherfore serued exorcistes / when the gifte off casting forthe euill spirites / was ceased ? what he will answer vnto a a Ad Eustochium de custodia virginitatis . Ieromes monkes / b b De vita Pauli . Eremites / c c De vita Hilarionis . Anchoristes ? Which were at that time very grosse . what to the fower Patriarches / or rather three ? Which by the generall Councell off Calcedon / soone after 400. yeares / had the gouernement off churches throwghe owte all the world . whether he allowe of that famous robberie / wherby the bishop off Rome / Constantinople / and Alexandria ( for the bishop of Ierusalem beside the name / had scarce aplowgh lande in comparison off the rest ) parted the state off the whole inheritance off Christe ? And if it be true which he d d pa. 344. affirmed / that the Councell of Calcedon offred the name vniuersall bishop / vnto the bishop off Rome : how will he mainteine that no generall Councell within 500. yeares , alowed any office not agreable vnto the word of God , and meet for those times ? Finally / what will he say to that yt was ( as Iulius bishop Sozo . li. 3. ca. 10. of Rome saith ) decreed by the lawes off the churche / and immediatly after the Nicene Councell / that the Bishop off Rome must be called to the Synode : and that it was voide which was doon there / beside his sentence ? Thus yow may see / that yowr selfe enemie to Antechrist / throwghe your inordinate desire of making good that you haue once setdowne / haue giuen him more grounde / then he coulde euer by stronge hande off disputation conquer .

If there were no other difference betwene the times off the Diuis 37. Pag. 349. Apostels / and those from whence the D. fetcheth his examples / but this that then there was none so litle an error , which was not beaten downe as soone as euer yt peeped vp , no infection Euse . lib. 3. ca. 32. being hable to laie holde off the cheif gouernours , which in his times had possessed the beste off them : that alone is sufficiente to shewe / that examples may be safely fetched from the Apostels times / which can not be withowt greate daunger / drawne from his times . But dothe not the D. see how greatly he is abused / which compareth the heretikes off the Apostels times / with the Catholikes off his ? their vtter falling away / with the corruption of others ? Whereas if he woulde haue answered to that I set downe : he shoulde haue compared Catholike gouernours / with Catolike gouernours . But he to lift vp the credite off his times / and to make them equall / or rather for the matter off gouernement superior vnto the Apostels : compareth the rose of his / with the thornes off the Apostels times / the golde off those / with the drosse off thes . And althowghe yt be grosse answer / yet as if one shoulde glorie in his shame / in the nexte sextion he insulteth vppon me / as thowghe he had answered very aptly / and I had spoken in the ayer . Wherupon I will leaue yt to the consideration off the reader / whether he seeking to aduance his testimonies in those wordes ( b b Pa. 348. hetherto Antechrist had not inuaded the churche off Rome , and in thes / approued off the best , worthiest , and eldest Councels , fathers , and writers , and a litle after / c c pag. 351. thes names were vsed in the purest times of the churche ) : I haue to the pourpose shewed / that those times were not pure / nor virginlyke / but that the churches were then muche departed / from the singlenes wherin the Apostels had lefte them . I leaue also to iudgement / whether the answer I make in this behalfe / be other then all those gyue which haue to doo with confutation of those popishe errors : for the establishement of diuers wherof / the Papistes vrge the same antiquitie / which the D. now presseth vs with .

Clementes place which he can not finde , is ( as I saide ) not far from the beginning of the booke . who after he had shewed that certeine receiued the doctrine immediatly at the Apostles handes / to note how corruption entred / interlaceth this prouerbe in a parenthesis : few children are like their fathers . And if it be grieuous 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . for him with reading off two or three leaues / to seeke yt : he shall haue a shorter way / for yt is repeated of d d li. 4. c. 11. Eusebius . As for the nexte section / wherin Socrates testimonie is wiped awaye / by accusing him of the Nouatian heresie : besides a proofe off the light esteme off autors which make againste him / he gaineth nothing . For there is nothing saide off Socrates / which is not confirmed otherwise . The bishop off Salisbury alledgeth somewhere owt of Origen / off the whole estate off bishops / which Origin . in . Math. Tract. 12. Socrates saide of them of Rome / and Alexandria : that the bishops euen in his time / and vnder the clogge off persequution / seemed to passe the rage of wordly Princes . And where he saith Socrates vniustly reproueth the bishop of Rome , &c. how vntrue that is may cuidnetly appeare / for as much as the bishop whom Socrates speaketh of was Celestinus : whom the Ans. before saith to haue claimed superioritie pag. 342. off all churches , and taken vpon him as yt were the name , off vniuersall bishop . Nether did that proude statelines of the Romishe Bishop / which Socrates speakethe of / beginne in Celestinus which banished the Nouatians / but was in his predecessors / Boniface / Zosimus / and Innocentius / &c. as may appeare by diuers monumentes of that time . And Socrates doth not reproue them for that they were ennemies to the Nouatian heretikes / but for that they tooke vpon them to exile them which perteined not vnto the Bishop / but vnto the magistrate . Also it appeareth that Theodosius the Emperour / had permitted the Nouatians to haue Socr. 5. li. ca. 20. a churche there : so that there was double fault in the Bishop / which in steed that he should haue contented him self to preach / that it was not meet to haue suche heretikes in the church : tooke vpon him to put them owt / both by strong hand / and contrary to the Emperours permission . And if Celestinus were suche as the D. hathe tolde vs : then it is so farre that Socrates speaking off him as I haue alledged / did it of euill will / that he is rather to be be accused for to soft speache / in suche a heinous faulte .

Where he saithe I haue falsified Socrates , which for passing beyonde the limites of priestehood to an owtwarde dominion , haue set downe , leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule , and dominion : I leue yt to the iudgement of all indifferencie / what cause he hathe to make suche an alarme / for so small a matter : when yt is plaine that how much a minister bestowethe in a vocation which is not his / so muche he leaueth his owne : and therby manifest / that in altering the wordes / I kepte the sense . And so yt still fallethowte / that my falsifying which the Answ. penne doothe so willingly runne vpon / is nether with any aduantage to my cause / nor disaduantage vnto his . The two nexte sections I let passe / as hauing no matter off answer . What attendance the prelatship Diuis. 42. pag. 352. off the Garter requireth / and what absence from a Bishops charge / being a thinge in the knowledge off all / I leaue . whether he hathe manifestly peruerted the wordes off the Admonition / which here he denieth / the bookes off bothe sydes are witnes . His slaunders ( first we take a waie the princes authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons , then / we woulde giue to vnderstande , that he maketh yt in her maiestyes power to minister the worde , and Sacramentes ) still confirme his shameles impudencie : of the one there is no syllable that can be pulled that waies . The wordes of which he would wreste the other / be / yt is not lawfull to take those which god hathe appointed to the mynistry , to applie to other vses there mentioned . Which because yt falleth into the question off residence / before handled / and into that bearing cyuill office by the Ecclesiasticall person / herafter ( God willing ) to be disputed : the resolution ys to be taken from those places . Where in the laste dyuision he calleth vppon my answer , to the tytles off Lordes grace , &c. beside that he hathe nothing but bare sayinges withowte shewinge forthe any matter : he hathe answer . Thus after large promises off shewing In this Tract. vpon the place of Math. 20. and after 20. diuis . Pag. 448. the greate antiquitie off thes names / that they were not onely in the Councell off Nice , but are manifestly to be founde in all stories , and writers before the councell off Nice : after highe wordes againste those which denie the pretended antiquitie : after rifling / and ruffling vp euerie darcke corner where thes greate / and glorious names might be hidden : after hell yt self hath bene moued / and sommoned to witnes of this antiquitie : yt is manifest that thes names nor no one of them / hathe hetherto bene shewed in any one Councell / writer / or storie before the Councell of Nice : and then onely the name Metropolitane / which by the Answ. owne account / was abowt the yeare 330. yt ys manifest also that the names Archbishop / archdeacon / Primate / &c. be not shewed owte off any ether Councell / storie / &c. before Epiphanius time / which was aboute the yeare 380. and so manifeste / that thes names being not founde in moste aunciente monumentes / could not haue their allowance . what approbacion they haue had sythens they came into the church / I leaue yt to be estemed partly off that which hathe bene / and partly off that which shall be ( God willing ) alledged ▪ being bent as well against the office / as name off archbishop . Which I therfore forbeare to set downe here / leste I shoulde be compelled to repeate them againe .

Caput 3 , Diuis. 1.

THat the reader maie haue clearer light / to iudge of our writinges on both sydes in the rest off this controuersie / and that we may be better furnished of weapons / againste this greate leuie off pretended autorities ; two questions seeme necessarie to be decided / before we come vnto them . The one / whether the worde off God hathe ordeined that in euery seuerall congreation there shoulde be a bishop : which the Answ. dothe flatly denie / and Pag. 328. further saith / yt appeareth owte off certeine ecclesiasticall writers , and the exampels off Timothe , and Titus , that the Apostels appointed bishops , onely in principal townes and cities . The other is / whether there were allowed in one citie / 2. or moe bishops : which likewise he flatly denieth can be shewed to haue bene from Christ●● time , and that the whole practise pag. 366. Pag. 444 off the prymitiue churche is againste yt . Yf thes thinges be shewed to haue bene ordeined off the Apostels : yt muste folowe that this institution off God / banished by Satan / owght to be called home / an that all autoritie off men / and coustome exalted againste this / must yealde them selues prisoners . Likewise if these be shewed / the trwthe of exposition of the testimonies of the moste aunciente writers / shall better appeare : wherby we haue shute the bishoplike autoritie in the circuite / and roundell of one church : which the Ans. would haue extended vnto a realme / or diocese . And so shall come to pas / that they which hauing all their senses possessed of the coustome of thes later / and corrupter times / when they reade or heare off a bishop in the scripture / or in the moste aunciente writers / conceiue forthwith a bishop of the same mould that ours be / shall a greate deale easelier correcte their error . For if a bishop in the Apostels time / and off their institution / was the bishop off one churche onelie : by all likelihood those times which folowed nexte after them / kepte them neerest vnto that image : whervpon will fall owte / that this vsurped autoritie of bishops ouer their fellow ministers / did by litle and litle encrease / according to the measure of time further from that wherin th apostels liued / and nearer vnto that wherin Antichrist was fully setled . which thinges although they haue light enough in them selues : yet to cleare this matter better / there shall be ( God willing ) set downe certein testimonies of the most auncient times : wherby as by certein traces / the truth off thes thinges may be easelier found owt .

The first that euery particular church should haue her bishhop / is manifest by Paul to Timothe . For seing the description of 1. Tim. 3. a bishop which he gyueth / doth agree vnto the minister of euery congregacion / and nothing there required in the one / which is not in the other : it followeth that the minister off euery congregacion / is the bishop theroff . For the description agreing with euery of them : the thinges described must likewise . Secondly / onles he doo by this description off the bishop / set forth the nature off euery minister of the word in his congregation : in describing the offices off the churche / he hath left owt the principalest membres / and was more carefull in describing the Deacons ministerie / not occupied in the word / then the preaching ministeries , but that is absurd : yt must follow / that he vnderstood them by the name off bishop . Furthermore S. Paules bishop was appointed to the same place / wherunto his Deacons : but his d d Phili. 1. Act. 6. Deacons were assigned to a particular congregation / as appeareth both by the vse of the scriptures / and also by that after this corruption entred / that euery church had not her bishop : yet it had her Deacons / as is to be e e Athana . Apol. 2. Ierom. cont. Lucifer . seen by that alledged of the Deacons off the churches off Mariotes . S. Paul also there assigning the charge / and care of the bishop / ouer the church of God / must ether gyue him charge ouer the whole bodie of the catholike church : or ouer one particular congregation : or of the faithfull companie of one howse . but he extendeth not his charge ouer all the Catholike church / for that were to make a Pope / not a bishop : nor restraineth him to the faithfull of one howshoulde / considering that he opposeth the gouernement off his howse / to the gouernement of the church : yt followeth therfore that he appointeth hym to one particular church . That by this word church / must be vnderstanded one of thes three significacions / yt standeth vpon this grownd : that in none off S. Paules other Epistles / or S. Lukes writinges / that word church is euer vsed otherwise / and neuer signifieth the church ether off Prouince / or Dioces . For when the Apostles vtter the companie off belieuers in such a circuit : they alwaies speake in the plurall nombre / and call them the churches of such / and such a place . And if it can be shewed that this word is taken in them / for the faithful in a whole prouince / or dioces : I will giue ouer the hould of this argument . If ( as I perswade my self ) that can not be doon : then the church assigned vnto S. Paules bishop / is a particular congregacion .

Moreouer S. Paul writing to Tite / to appoint Elders throwgh euery towne / which were vnblamable : addeth because a Tite 1. bishop must be vnblamable . Wherupon ether euery towne must haue a bishop : or his reason is not well knit . For he should both giue his rule off one thing / and his reason off an other : and it should come to passe / that those churches which haue no bishops / might lawfully haue slaunderous / and spotted bishops seing his onely reason why elders of euery towne owght to be withowt reproche / is because a bishop must be so . Againe where it is saide that Paule / and Barnabas apointed by voice elders in euery Act. 14. churche / ether beside the auncientes off the churche the Bishop was ordeined : or els the famous cities of Antioche / I conium / and Listra / in the number of those churches there mencioned / receiued no bishop . But the Ans. him selfe affirmeth / that the Apostels ordeined bishops , in the principall cities , and townes : therfore vnder thes wordes ▪ they ordeined elders by voice in euery churche , ys vnderstanded that they ordeined bishops in euery churche . For S. Luke vsing the same wordes to set for the the ministerie off all other churches / wherwith he settethe forthe the ministerie off those famous cities / vnlesse he will denie there were Bishops there : he muste off necessitie graunt / that the other churches had their bishops aswell as they .

Laste off all vnles yt be the institution off God / that euery particular congregacion shoulde haue her bishop : in that largies / and bountifull liberalitie of ecclesiasticall ministers / which S. Paule shewethe our Sauiour Christe bestowed vppon his churche Ephes. 4. 11. after he was ascended / nothing falleth to the lot of the partilar churches . But yt ys horrible iniurie vnto the liberalitie off Christe / so to shutte his hande which he opened so wide : therfore it muste needes be / that our Sauiour Christe gaue euerie churche her Bishop as for the apostles / Euangelistes / and Prophetes / beside that their ministerie was not streightned vnto particuler churchs : they are ( as before hathe bene shewed ) ceassed . There remaine therfore of the ministeries there reckened / the Pastor / and Doctor : wherof whether the bishop be the same with the Pastor / as some thinck / or whether he conteine both Pastor / and Doctor / as other some esteme : it ys manifest that ether euery particular churche must haue a bishop ▪ or els none of those ministeries there recited . For if it be saied that taking a bishop for the same with a Pastor / the particular congregations hauing the Doctor / may haue one off them / althowgh they haue no bishop : it is easy to answere / that if the Pastor most necessarie / and whom the churche can worst spare / doo not belong : the Doctor can les be thowght to apperteine to a particular church . And thus far owt of the scripturs / for proofe of a bishop in euery particular church : yt followeth to shew the traces of this institution in the primitiue church / which succeded next vnto the Apostels .

The same the D. supposeth the true Ignatius / writeth thus : Euery church should haue her altar , and euery churche her bishop . And lest peraduenture the D. should interprete / euery Ad Philadelphios . church , euery dioces / or prouince : beside that I haue shewed that signification of churche was vnknowen vnto those times / the autors meaning is cleare to the contrary / when he saithe / euery church should haue her communion table , which he calleth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . vnproperly an altar . Onles therfore the D. will say / that his meaning is there should be but one communion table in a whole dioces / or prouince : this hole is stopped vp against him . And if ( as he would make vs belieue ) this was Iohn th apostles scholer : then amongest the testimonies of men / this may worthely beare the bell . Yf not ( as I for my part thinck ) : yet the later he is / the longer is proued this order of hauing a bishop / in euery particular congregation / seing he sheweth what the face off the church was / in those times when he liued . Epiphanius prouing a bishop / and preaching Elder to differ ( which cometh after to be Epipha . l. 3. Tom. 1. hae . 75. examined ) saith : where ( not as the Pope / and the Answ. in what great cytie soeuer ) there was found any worthy to be bishop , there a bishop was appointed : yea and where there was not to fournish both bishop , and preaching Elder , there th apostles made a bishop , and left the Elder . So that by his Iudgement / bishops were in greater nombre then / then preaching Elders . That the same was also in Cyprians time / shall appeare ( God willing ) in the places after to be handled owt off him . From his time vnto the Councell off Nice / we haue the storie of Eusebius : wherin as in a glasse we may see / that the churche in this point was litle altered Considering that he assigneth the bishops charge / continually ( for any thing that ether the Ans. sheweth / or I can gather ) to one church / or to the churches in one citie onely . Which maie better appeare in that his bishops / are so often times called the bishop off a parishe ( as hath bene shewed ) and that he confoundeth a parishe with a churche / a pastor with a Bishop ( as shall appeare ) : so that onles the Answ. will saie / that there was in those times but one parish / church / pastor / in compas off a prouince / or dioces : he muste be constreined to confesse / that euery particuler churche for the moste parte / had a Bishop .

And althowgh after time of the Nicene Councell / there is no dowbt but that as the Bishops had more occasions of enlarging their boundes / throwghe the disordered zeale off the godlie Emperours / so they let not slip those occasions : yet if we consider the estate off the churche / what yt was abowte 400. yeares after Chryste : we shall finde that bishops were not the tenth parte so thyn sowen / as ours be now . If a bishop ranne in to any slaunder / and the slaunder pressing him he coulde not assemble a greate nomber of bishops : to the ende he shoulde not remaine in that Tom. 1. 2. Carth. ca. 10. slaunder / the Councell off Carthage was off aduise / that his cause shoulde be hearde off twelue bishops / and his owne bishop . And an other / that if an elder were accused / he might call 6. bishops from the places harde by / and lykewise a deacon three : which Tom. 1. c. 8. 3. Cart. together with their owne bishop should haue autoritie to heare / and determine the causes in debate . Now if for euery accusation of a bishop / there were assembled 12. bishops at the least / and that when the matter required haste : for euerie accusation of an elder six / and off a Deacon three / beside their owne bishop : and that those might be taken in places harde by : all men maye vnderstande / that there was more neighbourhood in bishops then is nowe / and that yt behoued that those bishops dwelte within no greate compas / which might be assembled with suche commoditie . For if we shoulde imagine the same condition off bishops then / which is nowe : how euill aduised should the Councell haue bene / to cawse so manie bishops to come so farre / with so greate charges / with suche longe absence from their churches / with suche delaie / and suspence off the purgation off them / whose speedie dispatche stoode so greatly vpon the glorie off God / and edification of their churches ? Herof yt may easely be seene / that this blessing and gifte of God in hauing off a bishop / rained not onely vpon greate cities / and greate townes : but euen ouer litle borowghes / and villages where there was a sufficiente congregacion / hable to mainteine this mynisterie off the worde .

And althowghe there be diuerse cawses / why the aunciente stories doo not so often make mention / of the bishopes of vplandishe townes / as that in those tymes of persequution / a nomber off them did scarcely yelde one sufficiente companie / hable to mainteine the mynisterie off the worde : and that by all likelihoode the countrey men rownde abowte / made their resorte vnto the good townes nexte them / which had a bishop : and for that the stories for the moste parte / keepe the memorie onely of the moste famous bishops / which by godly policie off the churche / were placed in the moste peopled townes : yet notwithstanding yt ys not harde to shew diuers / which are expressedly called bishops off small townes / or villages . As off one a a Euseb. ● li. 16. cap. Zor●cus Bishop of the village of Coman : of b b Theod. 5 li. ca 4. Mares / Bishop of a small towne / called Dolicha : of c c Ierom. Tom. 1. catolog . Gen̄adi ▪ vir . illus● ▪ Asclepius / Bishop of a small towne in Africa ; and of others / which partly I haue alredy shewed owte off the testimonie off Ierome / and partly shall be shewed ( God willing ) in discourse off Cyprians testimonies . I leaue also to speake of d d Socrat. 4. 26. Gregorie / bishop of a small cytie / called Naz●anzum : of an other which was e e Quaest. 16. priest of the Castle Cumane / that is f f 80. dist. Bishop : both which are as well forbidden / as to haue a bishop in a village . I followeth to shewe vpon what cawses / and by what meanes the churche so fruictfull in Bishops became afterwarde so baren . wheroff albeit yt is moste certein / that the principall cause was the wrathe off the lord / who angrie with his churche / sente suche a dearthe : yet the doings off men which God had disposed of wisely / for the accomplishement of his counsell towchinge the man of synne / were partly vnaduised / partly proceeding off ambicion : and that not alwaies after one sorte / but taking encrease / and gathering strenght with the time . So that the ambition which at the first was kepte in some awe / and restraincte / in the ende brake owte / and shewed yt selfe as yt were bare faced .

In the Africane Councell / yt appearethe that before a certeine lawe made of the Emperour / whersoeuer and in what diocese 1. Tom. Concil. 66. ca. soeuer there was a churche off Donatistes conuerted vnto the Catholike churche / that those proselytes / and conuertes had a Bishop of their owne : and the Councell there confessethe / that they deserued so to haue . Wherupon yt folowethe / that how many churches so euer off the Donatistes were conuerted : so manie Bishops at the leaste / there might be in one onely diocese . And if this were a good lawe and equall ( as the Councell confessethe ) : what cause can be assigned / why yt shoulde be taken awaie / as appeareth yt was afterward ? In the second Councell of Carthage yt was decreed / that those dioceses which had no bishops 1. Tom. Concil. 5. cap. should haue none : and those which had / should kepe their proper Bishop Notwithstanding if the number off the faithfull should encrease in that diocese / that the people desyring a Bishop / if the bishop of the diocese consented therunto / might haue another bishop . Now in that the Councell ordeined that there should be no bishops in that diocese / where there had bene none : yt is apparante that their dioceses were not the twentith parte so large as ours . For is there any likelihoode / consideringe the nomber off the bishops before proued / that the Councell woulde decree that there should be no bishop within 30. or 40. myles / as it is with vs ? And when it ordeineth that in that diocese where there was a bishop alredy / the nomber of the faithfull encreasing / there might be at the instance off the churches / and consente of the bishop other bishops ordeined : yt vttereth the cause why diuerse parishes rounde abowte / were the diocese of one bishop : namely for that here and there / in this and that towne / there was scarce gleaned owte a sufficient number / off those which hauing giuen their names to the gospell / were hable to make one sufficiente congregation to maintein the ministrie . And therfore ordeined / that when the harueste of the faithefull should be more plentifull in those places : then also counsell might be taken / off moe Bishops .

Wherupon we may gather / this to haue bene a cause of this scarcitie / that it being lefte alwaies in the discretion off the Bishop / whether he woulde haue any moe Bishops : throwghe Ambicion yt came to passe / that the nombre off Christians increasing / they woulde not suffer the people to haue moe bishops / but ordeining them Elders / and Deacons / together with the name off the Bishop / reteined vnto them selues a greate parte off the autoritie / and gouernement to other belongyng . And this ys In his booke off the practise off Prelats . that which that excellent Martir of God William Tindall / shortly noted : when the multitude off Christians encreased , and the church was endowed with greate possessions : the bishops made them substitutes , which they called preistes , and kept the name of Bishop vnto them selues . And how vnhappely it was lefte in the Bishops choise / ether to suffer another bishop to be instituted or no / in his diocese : maie appeare by this shameful ambition / which euen then beganne to shew yt selfe . For so far was yt / that they woulde departe with any already gotten : that they a Africanum Concilium c. 84. 85. 87 assaied to encroche ( and sometimes by stronge hande ) vpon the boundes off others : as appeareth by the manifolde debates / which they had one with another / aboute their precinctes / testified in the booke of Councells .

Another cause off this dearthe was / an order taken amongest b Tom. 1. Concil. Mileuit ca. 24. them / that where in Afrike there were greate swarmes of Donatiste heretikes / and other straungers from the churches : as euery Bishop gained those foreners vnto the churche / so he enioyed them . Which thinge extended not onely vnto euery ones owne diocese : but also to other dioceses / if the other Bishop were somewhat sluggishe in that behalfe . which what a greate prophanacion yt was of the giftes of God / no man of any iudgement in the worde of God / can be ignorante . For semeth it a meete thing / that for the blessing off God gyuen vnto their preaching / they shoulde be made rulers off all those peoples which they gained ? And what differeth this from symonie : but that as one selleth the giftes off the holy goste for monie / so this made march andrise off them for honor / and money both ? And verely hauing before a competente stocke / in this poincte they did not so much get disciples vnto Christe / as to them selues : nor so much enlarge his kingdome / as their owne : not doo th office of pastors / as of hirelinges / and st●pendarie souldiers bente vpon the spoile .

Another cause off this scarcitie was / that as they prouided / that there should be no bishops where were none before : so they African Concil . ●● . 66. decred / that in dioceses where there were / if after the deathe of the bishop / the people of that church had rather yelde them selues subiecte vnto another bishop / then chuse a newe : that it shoulde be lawfull for them so to doo . And theruppon / yt is very like that diuers churches ( when good bishops beganne to be rarer / then wedges of golde ) seing any one which behaued him selfe more tolerably : yelded them selues vnto him . Not muche vnlike those times off the Lordes indignacion / which the Prophete speaketh of / wherin a nomber of weomen laide holde off one man . Beside that it is not vnlike / but the stately pompe off bishops hauinge Esay 4. 1. taken deepe roote ) the people did not vnwillingly quite the estate of a bishop : and as off an euill neighbor / and one which laie to heauy vpon them / were glad to be rid off him . yt might be also the peoples faulte / which ( as our experience teachethe to muche ) rather then they woulde beat the charge of mainteining a sufficiente mynistrie off their owne : were contente to yelde vp their priuiledge off hauing a bishop / to receiue with abatement off their charges / a mynistrie they cared not what .

Laste of all / when Sathan had lifted vp the sonne of perdition into his feare / and had made a full conqueste off all synceritie off religion : yt was flatly decreed / that yt should not be lawfull Tom. ●● Epist Zacha. Papad Bonifac. pag 44● . to ordeine any Bishop / ether in villages / or small cytie : leste throwghe the multitude / bishops should waxe vile / as I haue alledged in the former booke . Wherupon cometh here to be considered / what ys answered : that I be not compelled there to renewe this question againe . His answer is / that I haue falstfied the place , that I haue not redd the Epistle , that yf I had , hauing anie modestie I would neuer haue so written To let the reste goo / and withal his vnworthy reproche / so often repeated / for saying Boniface to Zacharie , in steade off Zachary to Boniface / seing the quotation in the margent is right : I say to let thes goe / consider wherin I haue vsed falshoode Y● ys firste assigned / in that where the wordes off the Epistle are / leste the name off a Bishop shoulde wax vile : I saide / leste they shoulde waxe vile throwghe the multitude . If I haue falsified in adding throwgh the multitude : what truth / or faithe hathe the Answerer vsed / in adding / becawse the contemptiblenes off the place , often tymes bringeth contempte off the person ? This addicion off wordes ys greater then mine / and no more founde in the Epistle then mine : whose interpretacion is more aggreable vnto the minde off the writer / his that the daunger off contempte was conceiued by reason off the place , ormine that it was by reason off the multitude : let the reader iudge .

Which that he may he may the easelier doo / let it be considered ad Euag. 2. what Ierome writeth / where speaking off the pride off the Deacons : he assigneth the cawse that they were so much set by / to haue bene their fewnes / and the cawse why the Elders were so light made of / becawse they were moe in nomber . For the aboundance of any commoditie / doth so commenly bring downe the price of it / that there is no nation I thinck where it is not in prouerb / that rare thinges are greatly esteemed : as contrariwise thinges off excellent / and necessarie vse / are throwgh their multitude called vile . Which is declared there by example of Poley / a commen / and vile herb in those countreis : and yet for the rarenes more esteemed in India / then pepper . Of the other side where he saith / they were not placed in villages ▪ or small cities , because the smallnes of the place doth make the person often times contemned , in steed that it is meet the bishop should be reuerenced : by that reason there should be no minister of the word in those places at all . For it behoueth that the minister also haue the reuerence of his people / which becommeth the embassadour / and steward off Christ : and if the bishop looke for more / he pricketh at a further marck / then euer the word off God set vp . But how cometh it to passe / that the bishop off Canturbery is more esteemed / then the bishop off London : and he off Winchester / then he off Norwich / if the place cawse the estimacion of the Bishop ? When gentlemen / and noblemen build their howses more commenly in small townes / and more solitary places : doth the Ans. thinck that they lose any of their estimacion therby ? Also by this reason it owght to be forbidden / that Iustices off Peace , and Quorum shoulde dwell in countrey townes / and commaunded to dwell onely in great townes / lest they be contemned off the people . But beside that it is contrary to the wisdome of God in the scripture : the Paganes which neuer saw that light / could tell that the places doo not make men honorable , Plutarch . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . but men the places . And Ierome saith / the bishop off an obscure citie , hath as much autoritie as he off the most famous . If the D. answer / that it owght to be so / but it is not / throwgh the folie off certein : yf that were graunted / yet yt is vnmeet that the ministrie should be according to the euill disposition off certein . for then forsomuch as yowth is subiect to contempt / it shoulde be vnmeet to choose a young man ( of what giftes soeuer ) vnto the ministerie .

Thother falshoode the Ans. chargeth me with / is / for that I gather off this canon , that in times paste there were bishops in seuerall parishes , and small townes , when there was no bishop before off anie parishe . yt semeth that his vnderstanding can not be so simple / but that he maie perceiue if there were no other proofe / that those canones made so often for the forbidding of ordeining of bishops in villages / and small cities / proceeded theroff / that the churches in villages / and small cyties / had their bishops as other places had . For to what pourpose doo they defende yt / but that yt was vsed ? And wherfore was that lawe so often renewed ; vnles there had bene resistance / and vnles the churches refused to subiecte themselues / to suche a wicked order ? yf men make not lawes but vpon erperience of thinges which they mislike : how muche les doo they renew them againe and againe / but vpon gainsaying ? And in that Boniface which wrote vnto Zachary / had appointed those three bishops in small parishes / and townes : all vnderstand that yt was no new thing then / to haue bishops in such places . But because he closethe his eyes / and will not see thinges set before him : at leaste let him grope them . The false Damasus / 1. Tom. Concil. Epist . 4. Chorepiscopi . Villani Episco . and verie Antichriste / writing of this matter / inueiethe vehemently againste the appointinge off Bishops in villages / which he calleth countrey bishops . And yt appeareth plainly in that Epistle / that they had the selfe same autoritie in all thinges / which citie Bishops had . There he saith also / that yt was forbidden that there shoulde be any bishop ether in small cytie / or in village / or Castell : leste the name and autoritie of a bishop / should waxe vile . And therfore commaundeth / that those bishops off villages being disgraded off their Bishoprickes / shoulde be throwne downe to the order off preisthoode . Heere the D. maie vnderstande / that euen in the time off Antichriste / this order off euerie churche hauing her bishop / was not so abolished / but that there were remnantes off it in diuers places / and some which mainteined the libertie wherin God had sed them / againste that owtrage off Satan : who becawse he woulde make off bishops yong Princes / and saw that euerie parishe was not hable to mainteine that pompe / wente abowte with robberie off the reste / to lifte vp the heade off one . Heroff yt may be seene what cawse the D. hathe / to charge me with the falsifiyng of the Popes wordes / and how his habilite to defende the Popes decree / doothe not answer his desire .

As for the reasons I browght to proue / that the placing● off bishops in villages , and small cyties , coulde no more bringe them in contempte , then the shininge of the sonne , or falling off the raine in villages as well as in cyties , breedeth contempte off those benefites : or the name or autoritie of father , gyuen to poore men as well as riche , maketh that ordinance off God nothing set by : he answereth not a worde . Where I further alledged the foresight / and wisdome of God / which shoulde receiue a greate wound if in instituting for euery churche a Bishop / he shoulde not haue foreseen this inconuenience / which the Ans. vppon the Popes autoritie meinteineth : he askethe when and where ? I haue ( I truste ) shewed him now bothe . althowghe he if he had ether vnderstoode / or remembred what he wrote before twise / or thrise / when with Ierome he propoundeth vnto vs / that Bishop / and elder were all one by Gods worde : he should not haue fallen into this extreme boldenes / of denying euery thing which is enemie vnto his vnaduised assertions . For yf yt be the institution off God / that euerie churche shoulde haue a teaching elder / and that elder ( according to Ieromes saying alowed off him ) were a bishop : yt muste needes folowe / that to haue a bishop in euerie churche / ys the institution of God . And because the D. boweth so casely vnder the autoritie of men / that he estemeth it the beste proofe : let him vnderstande that this was the iudgement off twoo of the moste famous men / which our lande browght forth thes manie yeares . And the same also executed for the testimonie off the truth off god : wheroff one of them amongest other thinges / suffred also for this cause nowe in hande .

ᵃ The sixte Article which M. Barnes was condemned for / is this : I will neuer belieue , nor can neuer belieue , that one In M. Foxes booke of Barnes , Tindall , &c. fol. 216. or there about . man maie by the lawe off God , be bishop off twoo or three cyties , yea off an whole contrey : for that yt is contrary to the doctrine of S. Paul , which writing vnto Titus , commaundeth that he should ordeine a bishop in euery towne : prouing that by the worde elder / the Apostell meaneth a bishop . b b M. Hooper vpon the 8. commaund . pag. 90. M. Hooper shewing that one man may not haue two lyuinges / addeth : but this is claw me , and I will claw the. If the bishops permitted not their priestes to haue 2. benefices , it may fortune the priestes would likewise say , the bishop should be bishop but of one citie . And in deed so it should be : and till magistrates bring them to that point , it shal he as possible to heare a bishop wade godly , and symply thorowgh the scripture in all case off religion , as to driue a camell thorowgh the eie of a nedle . A great pitie it is to see , how far the office off a bishop is degenerated , from the originall in the scripture . It was not so in the beginning when bishops were at the best , as the Epistle to Tite testifieth : that willed him to ordeine in euerie citie of Crete a bishop . And in case there were such loue in them now , as was then towardes the people : they would say them selues , there were more to doo for the best off them in one cytie , then he could doo . They know the primitiue church had no such bishops . vntill the time off Siluester the first , &c. Off thes thinges partly / and partly of that which shall be hereafter ( God willing ) spoken / I leaue yt to be esteemed off the indifferente reader / with how small ether knowledge / or conscience the D. hathe affirmed that yt can nether be shewed by scripture / nor confirmed by anie ecclesiasticall writer / or practise off the primitiue churche : that ether euery churche shoulde haue her bishop / or that there should be bishops in villages / and small Cyties .

Thother off the two questions remaineth / whether yt can be shewed by scripture / and by examples off the primatiue churche ▪ that there were in one churche moe bishops then one . which we might in parte haue bene eased off / if the answ. hauing fallen owte with the trwth / were not likewise fallen owte with him selfe . For he approuing off the testimonie off Ierome / which affirmeth elders / and Bishops all one / and that the elders off a churche chose one amongeste them / which onely kepte the name of bishop : dothe withall necessarily affirme / that before the time that this ordinance was established / there were diuers bishops in one church . And in saying the word bishop is not commenly vsed / but Pag. 383. for him that in degree is aboue the rest : he at vnawares confesseth / that there were diuers bishops in some churches / althowgh not commenly . But becawse he hath a facultie in denying / and affirming withowte shewing any reason / and that his worde is no bonde to tie him with all / when yt maketh againste him : some thinge also muste be spoken / towching this matter . And seing I haue shewed that he is by S. Paules determination / a Bishop / which is ap●e to teache / and to exhorte / to conuince false doctrine / and reproue corrupte maners ; and that the Ans. can not denie but one suche alwaies is not sufficiente / for some churches especially where the commoditie of assemblies is so good / that euery daie the worde off good ys to be preached : yt can not be denied but that there bothe maie / and owght to be moe bishops in a churche ( muche more in a cytie ) then one .

And that this was the institution off God / it appearethe by 1. Phil. 1. the practise of the churches in th apostels times : at Philippos / where Paul expresly / saluteth diuers bishops : at Ephesus / from whence a a A & . 20. certein bishops sent for / came to Miletum . Likewise in the church off b b 1. Thess. 5. 12. Thessalonica there were diuers Presidentes / the same ( by the c c Pa. 410. D. diuinitie ) that Bishop / or Archbishop . And as it was in those churches : so yt ys like to haue bene in other off greate resorte to heare the worde off God / and habilitie to enterteine a more plentifull ministery . Nether let him ( as he is wont ) oppose vnto the manifest wordes off the scripture / Ambroses exposition vpon the place to the Philippians / nor that which goeth vnder Ieromes name vpon the same . For as for Ambrose / a childe may see how violently he forceth the texte : and what inconuenience he runnethe into / to make yt agree with the coustome off his times / wherin this order was for the moste parte / worne owt . And as for the other / he is a counterfaicte / and so marked not Erasmus . onely because he contrarieth that which Ierome did plainly teache : but also for that the forme off writing / is farre off another complexion .

Yt can not be denied but that this order of God was stricken at by diuers canons off Councels / and that as this was the firste attempte / which the deuill gaue to abridge the nomber off Bishops in the churche : so yt was more aunciente then that other / off robbing the villages / and small Cyties off their bishops . Vpon what rotten groundes this abuse crepte in / cometh afterward to be considered : here yt is to be noted that this corruption was not so generall / but that often times yt admitted exception . And notwithstanding bothe custome / and Canons in that behalfe : good men vpon occasion made no conscience / to ordeine twoo bishops of one citie . a a lib. 6. c. 10. Euseb. maketh mention of Narcissus / and Alexander Bishops at ones in one parishe . and if yt be true which he reporteth / that the same was by reuelation from heauen : yt ys a good argumente / that this voice was as yt were a repeale off that custome / which had bene browght in contrarie to the firste institution off God . Yt is written off Augustine / that he was made b Possido nius in the life of Augustine . bishop off Hippo / bothe by the instante requeste off Valerius / then another bishop there / and by the consente off the Metra politane Bishop off Carthage . And albeit in consideration off the canons made to the contrarie / Augustine was lothe to take the charge : yet instantly required / he accepted yt . c c August . in collat. primi diei cum Donat. August . in gestis cum Emerit . Donat. Augustine him selfe also was off aduise / that in those places where was a Donatiste Bishop / and a catholike / if the Donatiste returned vnto the vnitie of the churche / then he should be receiued into the felowship off the bishops office with the catholike bishop . Where he putteth onely thes exceptions / if the people will suffer yt : yf becawse yt is not accoustomed , the people will beare it . Wherby is cleare / that notwithstanding it was forbidden by canons : yet he thowght yt not vnmeet / to haue two bishops in one church / if the people would beare it . and if he were of this aduise / notwithstanding the councels to the contrary : how much more would he haue thought it meet if the church had required / and made sute for it ?

Also it is not to be forgotten / that although this corruption off gyuing the name bishop to one in a church / from the rest to whom it did off right belong / be auncient : yet godly men misliked it / and by all likelihood broke it of . Which Ieromes wordes do apparantly import : this coustome was in the church Ierom. ad Euagr. off Alexandria from S. Mark , vntill Heraclas , and Dionysius . For onles there were some change then : why would he not rather haue saied / from S. Mark vntill his time ? considering that all that time / there was continuall succession of church / and bishops . Therfore belike those godly men / seing the mischeif like to ensue of that coustome / and vnderstanding that thinges owght to be called to the apostolick institution : changed that coustome . Furthermore it is diligently to be considered / that this order off hauing one onely in euery church to haue the name of Bishop / ouerspred not the church soudenly / and at a clap / but entred by litle and litle : Ierom. vpon the epist. to Tite . so that it is like there were diuers ages past / or euer this had a generall passage / thorowgh all the churches in the world . By all which it may appeare / how the Ans. is abused in saying / it can not be shewed from Christes time , that euer there were two bishops in one church . Thes thinges being thus laied / let vs now come to Cyprians Testimonies .

Caput 3.

VNto the firste diuision / I haue answered . In the second / to pag. 355. proue that Cyprian speakethe off an Archbishop / the D. concludeth thus . yt is the principall office of the archbishop , to prouide that peace , and vnitie be kept in the churche , &c. but the office off him whom Cyprian describeth , is to keepe peace in the churche : therfore Cyprian speaketh of an archbishop . This argumente is caste in the same moulde that those / which he hathe vntrwly compared my reason vnto before : pag. 316. and yt hathe almost more faultes / then wordes . But that the simplest maye see his dealing / yt is to be vnderstanded / that as the pretence off institucion off the Archbishop was to keepe peace / and suppresse scismes : so the onely pretence off translating the name off bishop / from manie in one churche vnto one onely / was the same : as appeareth by the place off Ierome after Ierom. ad Euagr. discussed . To let passe therfore that I haue proued / and will after more appeare / that there was then nether Archbishop / nor Metropolitane / and for disputacion sake to imagin Archbishops then : yet when bothe the name / and office Cyprian speaketh of / agree vnto him which gouerneth in euerie churche / or ( to speake as the D. speaketh ) diocese : and the office onely withowte the name / agreethe to the Archbishop : yt must needes be meeter ●o refer Cypcians wordes to the Bishop / then to the Archbishop / seing that there be more cordes off reasons to pull them that waies / then the other . At the leaste yt is cleare / that the Argument off the A. is faultie : seing yt was not onely the principall office off the Archbishop / to prouide for peace / &c. but the same also was the principall office off the Bishop / as that vnder pretence wherof / that kinde off Bishop was instituted .

Where he cometh to his oulde hole / that althowghe the name be not there , yet the office is : I refere my selfe vnto that written before pag. 354. in that be halfe . Howbeit here yt appeareth how he spake withowt booke / saying all writers before the Nicene Councell , make mention bothe off their names , and offices : when as Cyprian one off them / hathe no worde off them . Where he saithe Cypr. speaketh off Cornelius , who had gouernement off all the prouince : that is the question / which becawse he coulde not proue / he taketh graunted . Where he addeth Cyprian had the charge , and ouersight off all churches in Aphrica , and for proofe alledgeth the 4. booke , 8. Epistle : he is abused / for Cyprian dothe saie no suche thing . He speaking there off himselfe / and off his fellowe bishops assembled in Councell / saithe in this sorte : but because our prouince is spred forthe larger , and hathe bothe Numidia , and Mauritania ioyning . he saith not my prouince , but our prouince : which is manifestly referred vnto all the bishops assembled / as the course off the epistle declareth . Nether dothe he there speake off any iurisdiction / or ouersight which he had more then an other Bishop : nether yet off two Mauritanias / as the D. saieth / but off one onely . Yt appeareth therfore that the water where he drew this / was trowbled : and from whence soeuer he haue yt / Eusebius is off more credite in that matter . Who speaking of Cyprians large dominion / shutteth him with in Euse . 7. li. ca. 3. the precinctes of Carthage : saying / he was bishop of the parish which was in Carthage . And allthowgh it be cleare that Cyprian had no suche iurisdiction / yet to th ende this vnfaithefull dealing maie better appeare / let it be considered what was the estate off the churche in Africa / aboute 150. yares after : when there were Metrapolitanes which had ouersight ouer Prouinces / and this weede of Ambition had spred yt self much further in the churche . In the Councell of Africke yt appeareth / that Aurelius which longe after succeded Cyprian in the churche of Carthage / had not 1. Tom. Concil . him selfe anie iurisdiction ouer ether Mauritania / or Numidia : for that as he was bishop off the firste seate off that prouince wherin Carthage was : so Xantippus was Bishop of the firste in Numidia / and Nicetius of the firste in Mauritania . I omit that Mauritania was deuided from Carthage by sea : so that ( contrary to the D. interpretacion ) men must haue passed the sea for decision off causes . Wherby appeareth what a fable yt is / that Cyprian was Metropolitane off those three prouinces / when euerie one had a seuerall Metrapolitane .

Where he cyteth Gregory Nazianzene , that Cyprian ruled not onely the church off Carthage , but Afrike , Spaine , and almoste the whole easte partes : yt is to be obserued / that where the D. seeketh by sea and lande / in euery corner for bishops of the largest spred / and longest armes : at the laste he hathe met with one / which hathe more then he woulde gladly shoulde be knowen . for otherwise why hathe he concealed the reste of Gregories sentence ? Why hath he cut of the feet off yt ? why hath he pared Nazianzens wordes ? Because I haue not the booke : I will set it downe / as the bishop of Salisbury Def. Apol. part. 2. c. 5. d. 1. hath doone . Cyprian was a bishop , the mightiest and noblest off all bishops . For he had rule not onely ouer the churche off Carthage , and Afrike , which vntill this daie is famous off him , and by his meanes : but ouer all the weast , and in a manner ouer all the East , likewise ouer bothe Northe , and Southe . Thus appeareth he hath in this place / lefte owte both sowthe and North partes off the worlde / and for that the Bishop turneth Hesperiam . weast / he turneth Spaine . where if he complaine of the bishops translation ( althowghe I dowbt not but the bishop had reason / seing Hesperia / is opposed vnto the East ) : yet if it shoulde note any one seuerall countrey / yt is like to note Italy . For so Ierome writeth / that they vsed in times paste , to call Hesperiam Italy : especially when it ys vttered simply / withowt addyng vtter most . vpon the 5. ca. off Isay . nowe all maie vnderstand that Gregories meaning was not / that Cyprian was ruler off all churches in the worlde / in that sense the D. meaneth / and that he had autoritie off an archbishop ouer all churches in the world : but that he was famous amongest all / and sowght vnto for counsaile from all partes . Wherby appeareth / that the iurisdiction bishops had in times paste / owte off their certeine congregacions / was nothinge but a reuerent estimacion / purchased by opinion of singular learninge / and godlines / wherby others willingly / woulde bothe aske / and folowe their aduise / in gouernement off their churches .

And if the D. wil haue Cyprian archbishop / and Metrapolitane ouer all thes places : let him answer what shall becomme off his exposition / wherby he woulde haue euery Archbishop in his prouince / to haue peereles autoritie / withowt controlement of any other Archbishop ? what off the Prouince of Italy , ascribed vnto Cornelius ? what off that wherby he saithe / none owghte to goe ouer sea , for triall off cawses ? for althowghe we follow his vaine off interpretacion in all thes / and for a bishop vnderstande an archbishop / for a churche a Prouince / for the particular place where the quarell riseth / all that circuite which is not parted by sea : yet this one assertion off his / that Cypriane was Metrapolitane of almoste all the Easte , Weaste , Northe , and Sowthe , ouerthroweth whatsoeuer hathe bene saide in anie off those poinctes . For the wyde throate off Cyprians Archbishopricke / hathe swallowed vp all the rest / and made them all but Suffraganes : and by / this reckening / not onely men must passe the sea / but manie seas / to haue ende off their cawses . Laste off all / iff yt be true he beareth vs in hande : let him tell vs why the Bishop off Rome maie not haue a souueraintie ouer all churches / aswell as he phansieth off the bishop off Carthage ? considering they are in the same / and felowlike degree . Therfore onles he will ouerthrowe all / that euer he hathe gone aboute to establishe / in this cause : and onles in trauailinge with the Archbishop / he will be deliuered off a Pope / and a Pope off the largest cyse / and longest laste : he must be compelled whether he will or no / to expounde this worde gouerned , by consailed , or excelled , or some other worde as kolde / and as vnconfortable to the office off a Metrapolitane / or archbishop .

Why Illiricus calleth him metrapolitane , I haue shewed . He saithe I forget my selfe , which call him in one place metropolitan : they are selie contradictions allwaies which he chargeth me with . For he might haue remembred that I said / that this worde metropolitane doothe signifie nothing but bishop off the cheife Citie : in which sense I can easely aforde Cyprian to be a Metrapolitane / withowte any greate hinderance off my cawse / or helpe off his . I passe the nexte diu . hauing nothing but importunate / and shameles begging of thinges in controuersie . As that Cornelius had a prouince vnder him , that Cyprian was Metropolitane , that the place off Cyprian is trwly expounded off an Archbishop , that I gyue the Papistes aduantage , in saying that the place maketh as muche for a Pope , as an archbishop , that is to saie nothing for ether . Vnto the nexte / I haue answered where I laied open the vanitie off his answer / that writers passe by the title off archbishops : sauing that it is to be noted / that where the D. hathe before affirmed in plaine wordes / that the name off Pope was commen to all bishops : here to gyue some coulor Diuis . 5. Pag. 302. vnto his answer / he woulde make vs belieue that the name off Pope was commen not vnto all , but to manie bishops , &c. what M. Fox saithe in that behalfe / I referre yt to the reader . That the name off Pope was commen to all bishops / besides the testimonies I alledged before / may be seene in the bishop of a a In the 4. article 8. diuis . Salisbury / and M. b b Confess . ca. 7. Artic. 12. Diuis 5. pag. 357. Beza : which both affirme the same .

As the D. coulde frame no argument oute of Cyprians place / for the office off th archbishop / withowte begging : so he can not answer the reasons againste the Archbishop owte off Cyprian / withowt the same . For where I shewed that the whole people mentioned of Cyprian / being not the people of a diocese / or Prouince / were notwithstanding those which Cyprians bishops gouerned / and therfore that they were not ouer a diocese / or Prouince : he answereth that if I hadred any stories , I might vnderstande , that bishops were chosen onely by the Cytisens of that place , wherof they were called bishops , and by no other in their Prouince , or diocese . Which is a grosse answer . For althowghe the stories off later times ( wherin yt is not denied but thes offices were ) make suche mention : yet what is that to our cawse ? whose controuersie is whether yt were so in Cyprians times / as in times that folowed . If he can shewe any ecclesiasticall storie off like auncientie with Cyprian / that maketh mencion off suche election : then he saith somewhat : yf he can not / he doothe to much abuse the time / and the reader . And certenly if Cyprian said had no more / but the people chuse them bishops : yet ( withowte contrary proofe ) he owght by all reasonable vnderstanding / be iudged to speake off all that people / ouer which he had gouernement . but when he addeth all the people , he leauethe no controuersie . And in the same place he saithe : for the due making Epist. li. 4. 1. of Elections the nexte bishops of that Prouince where the place is voide , must come vnto the people ouer whom the bishop is set : and the bishop owght to be chosen in the presence off the people . Vppon which wordes yt maie thus be further reasoned : that people in whose presence the Bishop was chosen / was that over which the bishop was set : but the bishop was chosen in the presence off the people off one congregacion : therfore the people ouer which the Bishop was set / was the people off one congregacion . The firste proposition is manifeste by Cyprians wordes / ( the people ouer whom the bishop was to be set , owght to be presente for election off the bishop ) . The seconde is also cleare : forsomuch as it coulde not be with any conuenience / that all the people off a diocese / or Prouince / shoulde meete allwaies for the chusing of their bishop / especially in time of persequution . And therin I will refer my selfe to the iudgement of the reader / how absurdly the D. saith afterward : all the people of a prouince or diocese , might meete then withowte perill , or inconuenience . And where he saithe there were suche metinges at Synodes in those tymes : he is abused / considering that the churches met not / but their gouernours : and not all / but certeine owte off euery quarter / as he might easely knowe by the practise off all times . For althowghe it was not denied vnto priuate men to be presente at Councells : yet yt was very rare that they were found there in anie number / vnles vpon some notable controuersie : and that not by appointment or order taken / as in th election of their bishop / but onely at their pleasure .

And if yet the D. be off that boldnes / that withowte any proofe owt of antiquitie / he will expounde this worde all , by some , or ( as he doothe in the nexte diuis . ) by manie : and whole by parte , and that the smallest parte : and people by cytizens , to the open violence off Cyprians wordes : yet that all his starting holes maie be stopped / let vs further examin the place of Cyprian / owte of which he woulde confirme the office off the archbishop . Neither haue heresies , or schismes rysen of other occasion , then of that the priest of God is not obeied , nether one preist for the time in the church , and one iudge for the time in steede off Christ thowght vpon : to whom if the whole brotherhood would be obedient &c. To shape an archbishop / or bishop such as is with vs / owte of this place / the D. is compelled to expounde this worde church , by Diocese , or Prouince , Which if it be truly downe : then thes wordes also ( the whole brotherhoode ) must be expounded of all those which are in the Prouince / or diocese . For both the whole brotherhood are those which belong vnto that church : and if there should be any moe in Cyprians church / them those conteined in thes wordes ( the whole brotherhood ) : yt were no remedie against heresies / and schismes / to haue the whole brotherhood obedient vnto the preiste . Yf I can therfore shew / that thes wordes the 1. li. Epist. 4. whole brotherhood , signifie onely one particuler assembly : yt muste folow that nether Cyprians bishop is an Archbishop / nor the churche there specified / a diocese / or Prouince / but onely a particular congregacion . In the nexte sentence therfore / yt is saide : in the election off Sabinus , the bishopricke was giuen him , by voice off the whole brotherhood . Now considering that the whole brotherhood did chuse Sabinus / and yt is certein that nether the whole Prouince / nor dioces chose him : yt is manifest that thes wordes whole brotherhood , with Cyprian signifie not the people off a dioces / or Prouince / but off one particular churche .

Againe in Cyprians wordes ( heresies rise , and schismes begin , off this that the priest off God is not obeyed ) is an other argument to proue / that by priest must needes be vnderstanded / the minister in euery seuerall congregation . For seing obedience vnto this priest / hindreth the beginning / and seed off both heresies / and schismes : and this can not be if obedience be giuen onely to one bishop in adioces / or archbishop in a Prouince / onles also euery minister in his particular congregation be obeied : yt must follow / that the priest Cyprian speaketh of / is the minister off euery particular congregacion . For otherwise the remedie against heresies / and schismes ( which his wordes promise ) doth not follow . For it is diligently to be weighed / that Cyprian saith not / heresies / and schismes therfore continue in the church / or therfore are not taken away / becawse the priest is not obeied : but rise , haue their seedes , and first beginning becawse , &c. Wheras if he would haue set forth a bishop of a dioces / or archbishop of a Prouince : he should haue saied / the cawses why heresies / and schismes are continued : and not why they rise . Considering that the vertue off thes offices / is phansied to compose / and decide schismes / and heresies : and that althowgh the people be by them cured off their heresies / and schismes / when they are fallen into them : yet they can not by their teachinges / be kept from entrance into them / being so far off / and seldome or neuer hearing their voice .

Moreouer / as it is saied here / there is one priest in the church : so in an other a a Cyprian de simp. praelato . place / there owght to be but one pastor in one place , and againe / b b Li. 1. Epist. 3. euery pastor hath a portion off the floock committed vnto him , wheroff he must gyue account vnto the Lord. Yf therfore he will not suffer this one priest in the church , to be applied to moe then the bishop off the dioces / and the archbishop off the Prouince : yt must follow that in Cyprians tyme / there were no pastors off particular churches . For one pastor / and one priest or Bishop / being all one in Cyprians language : there can be no moe off the one / then off the other . Last off all / it may appeare by the councell of Cathage in Cyprians time / that there were diuers Bishops off villages / and small townes . For off the number off Bishops there assembled / the names off their townes wheroff they were bishops / being there set downe / are scarce fowre / or fiue that are to be found ( as I thinck ) in any Cosmographer / which reckeneth vp the principall cyties / and townes off Africk : and namely there is expresse mencion off one Ianuarius / bishop off a village called Cesars village . Thus I trust yt ys cleare / that by one church , one priest , nether an archbishop of a Prouince / nor bishop off a dioces / but onely a minister / or bishop off one particular congregacion / is signified . Th accusacions off passing forgerie , &c. deserue no answer .

I haue no where reasoned , that one should not be rightly chosen Diuis . 6. Pag. 358. bishop , if any be absent that haue interest in th election : my reason is / that forsomuch as all the people off Cyprians Bishop / was by the Ecclesiasticall discipline appointed to be present at his choise / and by no good order off discipline the whole dioces / or Prouince could be so appointed : therfore the whole people off Cyprians Bishop / was nether the people off a dioces / nor Prouince . And where yow haue ( to shew the vanitie of my assertion ) translated almost half a side : let the reader consider to what pourpose . For where he noteth that Cornelius was made bishop , by testimonie of his fellow bishops thorowghowt all the world : I can not tell for what cawse he should note it . Onles yt be that because the bishops thorowghowt the world testified their agreement by letters vnto his election / occasioned therto for that Nouatus denied it to be lawfull : therfore it is not vnlike / that the people of a whole dioces / or prouince were present in proper person / at the choise off the Bishop / and archbishop . And if he ment that : he is far short of his reckening : nether is it made vp by his third note / which I thinck tendeth to the same end . For where it seemeth that by thes wordes ( and good men ) he would haue it thowght there were other people beside the cytisens off Rome / at Cornelius election : the wordes are / of auncient priests ▪ and good men in the colledge : referring the word colledge , to good men / as wel as to priestes . So that by good men he ether meaneth those auncient priestes / or some other ecclesiasticall companie : where the Answ. restreining colledge vnto the Priestes onely / would haue his reader thinck / that the people off the Prouince were gathered thether / to chuse Cornelius archbishop . But this is a wonderfull change / that he which before esteemed it inconuenient / that a seuerall congregacion should● meet to chuse their pastor : is now browght into such streightes / that he seeketh to make the whole dioces / or Prouince assemble / for choise off their pastor . His other note ( that Cornelius passed thorowgh all ecclesiasticall offices , &c. vnto the bishoprick ) is idly put . Whether a preacher was the same with a bishop : belongeth to an other question / and is altogether owt of season here . For althowgh an Elder which ruled onely / were inferior vnto a bishop : yet therby followeth not / that an Elder which preached / was so . Where he saith / I falsefie Cyprian , and that yt is too great boldnes to say , Priuatus was condemned by 90. Bishops of one Prouince : the truth is / Cyprian saith not they were off one Prouince . But forsomuch as Priuatus was off the same Prouince with Cyprian / and controuersies rising in euery Prouince / were for the moste part voided by bishops of the same : onles a generall Councell can be shewed / a Prouinciall is presumed . beside that / it is vnlike that Cyprian / to then tent he might draw Priuatus into greater hatred / would haue omitted that circumstance off Generall Councell / if it had bene . And where he asketh / what if there were so manie bishops in one Prouince ? whether yt he conciuded therof / that euery seuerall congregacion / had her bishop : I answer that if there were 90. Bishops in one Prouince off Afrike / and that were obserued then / which ether the moste commen practise off all times hathe tawght / or which was ordeined after ward in the Councells Carthag 5 ca. 10. Carth. 6. ca. 43. off Afrike / that the Bishops off euerie Prouince being parted into twoo / or three companies / owte off euerie off them certein should be sente in the name off the reste / wherby a greater nomber remained at home / then came to the councel : and that be also remembred / that there were diuers places / where there were Nouatian Bishops : and further that the moste parte of townes / and cyties being heathen / and Idolatrous had no bishops at all / as yt was in those daies : Ad hereunto that in Stephen Bishop off Romes time / which liued in the same time with Cyprian / there Augusti . cont . Gaudent . were innumerable catholicke bishops : Lastly in those times of persequutions / the nomber off them which professed the Gospell in one towne / being for the moste parte sofewe / that fowre or fyue of the nexte townes / were scarce sufficient to make a competent assembly / hable to mainteine the ministrie : I saie all thes thinges considered / and bound vp together : I thinke yt will appeare vnto the indifferente reader / that euery congregacion where the word of God was preached / and sacramentes administred / had a seuerall bishop . For if they had bene such bishops as ours / althowgh the whole world had bene Christian : a litle Arithmetick would haue serued / to count them . Where he saith / the Patriarche off Antioche , had 160. Bishoprickes vndernethe him : yf all those were in one onely Prouince / I am glad to heare of it . If by a Prouince he meane the fourthe parte of the worlde / the Patriarche hauing then gotten vnder his gripes / so manie metropolitaneships : yt was no meruaile althowghe the bishops vndernethe him / drowned as many bishoprickes . Besides that it is ridiculous / to alledge this example which was long after / against th estate of Cyprians Bishop . Where he saith / by keping back the place off Cyprian , I gyue suspicion off forgerie : I know not how I could haue giuen him more particular knowledge of it , then in telling him / that yt was in the same Epistle / owte off which both he alledged his sentence / and I my answer .

First I requiring autoritie to proue / that by the worde Diuis. 7. pag. 359. churche ys vnderstanded a Prouince : he answereth all learned writers so expound yt . He dealeth but hardly which hauing al : will not vouchesafe to shewe one . for as for those which he makethe shewe of afterwarde : yt shall appeare how litle they serue his pourpose . His nexte answer is / that it is no vnacustomed thing to call the churche throwghe a prouince , by name of the metrapolitane seate of the prouince . If this were accoustomed / and in those times wherin Cornelius / and Cyprian lyued ( for otherwise yt is nothing ) : why doth he let his cause fall / for wante of shewing yt . For where he saithe / he hathe shewed yt before : there is no word founding that waies . And Eusebius saying that he did fulfill the office off a Bishop Euse . li. 7. ca. 2. in the cytie of Rome / will not suffer the D. to lurk in that corner : onles paraduenture he will say / the church in the cytie off Rome / was spred thorowgh the whole Prouince . And when Ruffine sheweth / that the Bishop of Rome about a hundred and fiftie yeares after ( at what time the Bishops had spred the 1. lib. ca. 6 winges of their dominion ) had but the churches in the suburbs / and round about Rome : is it a like thing / that Cornelius had rule off all churches of Italy ? For althowgh the coustome / whiche the Nicene Councell speaketh of / should haue bene euen from Cornelius tyme : yet yt is cleare / that Cornelius had not gouernement off the churches off all Italy / but onely of those in the suburbs of Rome . For answer vnto thes bare / and bold sayinges ▪ I refer my self partly to that before spoken / that thes wordes must be vnderstanded nether off Prouince / nor dioces / but onely of particular assemblies : partly / to that which followeth .

After I saying / that forsomuch as Cornelius , saied to haue banished one owt of his church , could not banish him owt of the Prouince , therfore church and Prouince be diuers : he answereth / thowgh he could not banish him owt off the prouince , yet he might excommunicate him , from the congregation thorowghowt the Prouince . wherin beside that he still presupposeth an archbishop / which is in controuersie / whilest he gyueth Cornelius power to excommunicate / thorowgh the whole Prouince : he is also deceiued / that thincketh by thes wordes / is ment that Cornelius did excommunicate Felinus . For he was excommunicated before / by the Bishops off Africk : so that Cornelius had not to doo / to excommunicate him . Where for confirmacion of his answere / he asketh / whether he forcibly shut him owt of the locall church of Rome : I answer / that if he had remembred that there were then doorekepers / to withstand those that cut from the church / would enter in : he should not haue thought it so straunge a thing / that Heretikes were shut forth from the locall church : especially seing he seemeth to haue allowed dorekepers / as officers necessarie for those times . And althowgh it were permitted vnto heretikes by Cornelius / and his fellowes / to enter into the locall church : yet he might haue considered / that when they offered them selues vnto the lordes table / Cornelius with his assistance owght to see them remoued . Seing therfore this not suffring of Felicissimus to enter into the church / is no excommunication / ( as the D. saith ) and carieth necessarily with yt / that which Cornelius coulde not doo / throwghe the Prouince / but onely in place where he was present : yt muste folow / that by the worde churche , where this was doone / a particular place muste be vnderstanded / and not as is supposed / ether diocese / or Prouince .

Where I shewed / that forasmuche as by churche is mente the place , where the poenitents confessed their faultes , that being nether diocese / nor Prouince / but a particular congregation / the word church also must note a particular congregation : the D. answereth / that forsomuch as Nouatus denied forgiuenes vnto the fallen , the meaning off Cyprian is nothing els , but that Nouatus did not receiue them , into the generall and catholike church off Christ . Wherin he hath cleane ouerturned the meaning off Cyprian / which is not to shewe ( as he saith ) that Nouatus woulde not suffer those that had fallen / to be receiued into the lap of the church ( which thinge was notoriously knowen of it selfe ) : but to shew / what were the impieties which waited vppon that heresie / amongest which he placeth thys / that therby publicke confession off faultes / to be made in euery particuler congregacion ( a singular exercise off pietie / and true worship of God ) was quite taken awaie . And wherfore in translating my wordes to no pourpose / nor to no aduantage off his / hath he passed by so slyly those wordes / the threshoulde off the church ? For if by confession of faultes in the churche / Cyprian meane the generall / and catholike churche off Christe : I would gladly know off hym / whether the catholike churche off Christ haue a threshould : and if it haue / where he will assigne it .

Laste off all / where as owte of thes wordes off Cyprian / they dare nor approche the threshould off the churche , but wander abroade in the Prouince , I conclude that the worde churche , can not be taken for the Prouince / being opposed vnto yt : he answereth / that Cyprian dothe oppose there / the churche vnto heretikes / and not vnto a Prouince . This is straunge / that by a churche / Cyprian muste meane a Prouince : and by the worde Prouince , he must not meane a Prouince . and in saying / they roued abowte the Prouince to deceiue , and spoile the brethren : yt is cleare that by Prouince / are not vnderstanded the heretikes in the Prouince ; for brethren be not heretikes . Where he would gyue to vnderstande / that the Prouince ( yf yt be Christened ) being the churche , can not be opposed vnto the churche : in deede yf by opposed , were mente contrarie / he had saide truly . but when by opposed , or set againste / he coulde not be ignorant but I mente that which was diuers : he might haue knowne / that as a Christian diocese maye be opposed vnto a Christian Prouince : so a particular Christian churche / maye be opposed vnto ether off bothe .

I would yow would omit nothing which might make for yowr Diuis . 8. Pag. 361. pourpose : but I woulde wish that yow woulde not repete one thing so often . For if they had no good tast at the first : surely by this often seathing / they are altogether vnsauory . Cyprians matter is answered : the diuision of ecclesiasticall functions into three degrees / bishop / Elder ( as yow say priest ) and Deacon / I haue Diuis 3. pag. 320. shewed to make flatly against yow . There remaineth here / that I answer vnto Demetrius . which was about the yeare off the Lorde 291. Who if he were bishop off so many churches / as is supposed : there is the greater likelihood / that in Cyprians time there might be bishops of the same breede . First if I graunt that he had such a superintendence / ouer all the parishes off Alexandria and Egypt / as Cyprian is saied of Gregorie Nazienzen / almost ouer all the world : that is / that for his learning and godlines / he was sowght to off all the bishops of those partes : the Answ. seeth he can gaine nothing therby / to settle ether his bishop / archbishop / or Metropoliran . But I answer / that he hath vnfaithfully reported Eusebius / yea and that also pretending to set downe the autors wordes : as appeareth / for that he hath set them in latin . Euse . 6. li. ca. 1. Eusebius very wordes are thes . Laetus was then gouernour off Alexandria , and the rest of Aegypt : and Demetrius then , newly after Iuliane , receiued vpon him the Bishops office off the parishes there . Here yt appeareth that Eusebius saith / that Laetus the magistrat / gouerned bothe Alexandria , and Agypt : but speaking of the Bishoprick off Demetrius / onely saith / he was Bishop off the paris hes there . which when by common construction / yt maye be aswell referred vnto Alexandria onely / or vnto the reste off Egypte onely / or to bothe together : yt was to greate boldnes / not onely to gather this sense of Eusebius / but also to bringe him in so speaking . But that the worde there , can not be referred vnto the reste off Aegypte / but onely hathe relation vnto the parishes off Alexandria / and that as there are no suche wordes as yow ascribe vnto Eusebius / so there can be no suche sense as yow Imagin : yt may easely and clearly be vnderstanded off that before / and after . For if nether the bishops of Alexandria before Demetrius / nor those after him vnto the times wherin Cyprian / and Cornelius liued / had that Iurisdiction ouer Egipt which yow Imagin : then by all reasonable vnderstanding / yt muste be estemed that this worde ( there ) owght to be restreined vnto Alexandria .

Abilius / the thirde Bishop off Alexandria after Marke had bene in that churche / about the yeare of our Lorde a 100. Eusebius Euseb. 3. li. 21. ca. Euseb. 4. li. ca. 1. lib. 21. ca. affirmeth to haue bene bishop off the parishe off Alexandria , but of the other partes of Egypt maketh no mention . He saith the same off Primus / succeding him in that bishoprick off Alexandria : the same off a a li. 4. c 4. Iustus / which succeded Primus : the same of b b 4. li. c. 5. Eumenes which succeded him : the same off an other c c 4. li. c. 11 Marke which succeded him : the same of d d 4 li c. 19 Celadion which succeded him : the same off Agrippa / whom also he calleth e e 5. li. 9. c. Agripinus which succeded him . And where speaking off all the former he saide / they were bishops off the Parishe off Alexandria : off f f 5. li. c. 9. Iuliane which succeded Agripinus he saith / he gouerned the churches in , or at Alexandria vttering the same thinge by diuers wordes . Vnto this Iuliane succeded Demetrius / off whom is saide as before hathe bene shewed , yea off those which succeded Demetrius / as famous / and as renoumed as he : there is no suche thinge . For off g g 6. li. c. 29 receiued the ministerie which was at Alexandria : likewise of h h 6. li. c. 35 Dionisius which succeded Heracles / that he receiued the gouernement of the churches which were at Alexandria which Dionysius liued abowte the times off our Cyprian / and Cornelius / which we haue presently in hande .

When therfore the Bishops of Alexandria so famous / are not red to haue had bishoply autoritie off anie Prouince / but are conteined within the circuit off one citie / vntill the time off Cyprian / and Cornelius : yt appeareth not onely that the D. hathe bene abused in thes wordes off Eusebius : but that this owght to be an other marke to know / that nether Cyprian / nor Cornelius had any Bishoplicke autoritie at all / further then the cyties wherin their churches were . And withall appeareth the cawse / why Euseb. did no more particularly / restreine the bishoprick off Demetrius vnto Alexandria : namely for that he had so often spoken before of the precinctes of that bishoprick . The next diu . hath nothing worth answer : being onely that which I in few wordes subscribed vnto . Sauing this / that Cyprian was Pupianus bishop : which maketh nether whot / nor kolde vnto this question : seing that Pupianus was no bishop / but one that sometime had bene off Cyprians churche . But of answer to my argument ( that forasmuche as Cyprian condemneth the pride of Pupian , for that his deede was like , as if one should be appointed bishop of a bishop , or iudge of iudge : there is no newes . wheras if yt were not a proude thinge / to be bishop of a bishop / &c. Cypr. did with no good aduise / set owte the faulte of Pupian by those wordes . And that Cyprian complaineth not off any wronge doone to him as archbishop ( which the Ans. afraied to affirme / would haue his reader thinck . ) but onely as he was Bishop yt appeareth manifestly by diuers places / in that he denieth that he pressed him with further autoritie , then that which all bishops had by succession vnto the Apostels . That Cyprian did not obiecte this , to appointe hym selfe bishop of a bishop , as a prowde name , but as a prowde deede : is a poore exception . for if yt were a prowde deede / to exercise the office off bishop ouer a bishop : yt muste be also a proude name / to be called the bishop : off a bishop .

The Answ. wordes carie no meaning with them / to conclude that which this cawse requireth . For what meaneth this / one bishop Diuis. 10. &c. pag. 362. &c. off a Prouince , had no autoritie ouer another , but were equall ? what is this to my reason ? which is , that forsomuche as the godly writers proue the equalitie off the bishop off Rome with other bishops , for that they called one another fellowes , and brethren : the bishops off dioceses , and metropolitanes calling one an other fellow bishop , fellow in office , brother , &c , doo therby declare that there was none which ruled ouer an other . For onles the reason be firme in the one : yt is not good in the other . But he answereth further / Cyprian in calling the bishops off his Prouince fellow bishops , and brethren , declared therby the function to be all one . So may the Papistes answer / that the Bishop off Rome called the Bishops his fellowes / and brethren / becawse they had the same function / and not in that for pollicie sake they were not subiect vnto him . But as that / so this is an absurd answer . The Godly writers vse not this reason / to proue that other bishops exercised the same ministerie off the word and Sacramentes / with the bishop of Rome ( which the Pope him self confesseth ) : but to proue that they were not vnder / but off the same autoritie with him / which he denieth . The next answer ( Cyprian in calling them fellow bishops declareth his humble spirit ) is I doubt not / althowgh I can not presently note the place / another buckler off the Papistes againste this reason . As if true humilitie did hinder any / to take that honour which his lawfull office ether in churche / or commen wealth doth put vpon him .

He further answereth / that S. Peter calling the Bishops , and Pastors to whom he wrote fellow Elders , was notwithstanding higher in degree then they . I graunt : but I denie that therfore S. Peter could exercise dominion ouer them . When it is saied that fellow bishop importeth equalitie : yt is not ment so much for honour / as for equalitie in autoritie that one hath ouer an other . For in honour the bishop off Rome had some preeminence ouer the Alexandrine / &c. yt being graunted him to haue the first seat in meetinges / which notwithstanding had no dominion . Therfore this maketh directly against the dominion off Archbishops . For if Peter in degree off ministrie aboue the pastors / in calling them fellow elders renounced dominion ouer them : how much more owght they forbeare to vse dominion ouer those / with whom they carie the same yoke / and degree off ministrie ? To that owt off Cyprian ( none of them toke him self bishop off bishops ) he answereth / he meaneth the title off vniuersall bishop : which how absurdly it is spoken / in diu 28. Pag. 342. may appeare by that ᵃ before spoken off the Africane Councell . His second answer is a pinch at Cyprians autoritie / for that thes wordes were vttered off him in that Councell , where an error was decreed , wherof he was cheif autor . Where he might with as good right / reiect all that euer Cyprian wrote . For albeit this were spoken in that Councell : yet yt no more perteineth / nor hathe no more acquaintance with that error / then this that we are iustified by faithe alone . Yf he woulde conclude that Cyprians autoritie is no sufficiente proofe / considering that being a man he might erre in this pointe / as he did in another : it is that we willingly graunte / and therfore call / and crie vpon the D. as loude as we can / that the whole cause may be tried by the scripture : from which he flieth / as Darckenes before the face off the light .

His thirde is : by thes wordes none taketh on hym to be the bishop off bishops , he mente that one bishop shoulde not tyrannically rule ouer another . which is vntrew : for Cypr. addeth that / as an either thinge likewise forbidden . So that where he saith / none dothe ether make him selfe bishop off bishops , or bynde his fellowes by tyrannicall feare : the D. off twoo sentences maketh one / and Cyprians or , he expoundethe that is to say . But doeth he not see / how still he ministreth weapons vnto the Papistes / by this friuolous answer ? for vnto the godly learned writers / alledging this place to proue that the bishops off Rome haue no autoritie ouer other bishops / the Papistes may answer with the D. that all that is mente off tyrannicall autoritie . Fouthly he saith / thes wordes Euery bishop hathe ftee libertie , and free iudgment off his owne power , are not mente off iurisdiction , but of iudgement , and opinion . As if there were les daunger / in letting a bishop holde what opinion he thincketh good / withowt controlement of an other bishop : then in letting him gouerne his churche as him semeth best / withowte the same controlement . So that herin the D. flying from the smoke / falleth into the fire . The vanitie off which answer appeareth also / by that in a a Cypr. do simp. praelat . an other place where he saith : there is but one bishopricke wheroff euery bishop holdeth one part , b b in solidum . wholy , fully , in all respectes . Likewise in an c c In the same Treatise . other place he saith / he holdeth his bishoprick off Christ , who is the cheif bishop . And most plainly it is confuted by that I haue alledged owt off d d lib. 2. Epist. 1. Cyprian : Where in expresse wordes / he referreth this freedome off power which euery Bishop hath / not ( as the D. ) to the bishops opinion , but vnto the gouernement off his church .

Where for confirmacion off thes answers he saith / otherwise a bishop should be exempted from all controlement off Synodes , and other , as well as of archbishops : the answer is easy . For althowgh Cyprian say no one Bishop can be iudged off an other bishop : yet he denieth not but he may be iudged off the church . And althowgh no one bishop haue autoritie ouer him : yet a Councell off bishops may correct him . And that this is one off those iudgementes off Christ Cyprian ment off / and that in those wordes he doth not reserue the iudgement off the bishop offending / vnto the day of the general iudgement : may be shewed by that he saith / Christ set them bishops in their charges . As therfore Cyprian calleth the placing off a bishop in his charge by the churche / by the elders theroff / and the next bishops / the placing of Christ : so he meaneth that iudgement giuen against a bishop offending / by the church / and Synodes / is the iudgement of Christ . That owt off Cyprian / wherin the weight off the argument lyeth ( euery Bishop muste rule his owne flock him self , as he that shall make account off his deed vnto the Lord ) he passeth by . After to the wordes off Cyprian ( that nether he , nor his fellowes vsed compulsion towardes any , appointed any law to any : seing that euery one set ouer the church , hathe in gouernement theroff free disposition 2. l. Epist. 1. of his owne will / werof he shall gyue accoumpte vnto the lorde : ( he saith / I left owte that which gyueth the solution / and therupon according to his coustome / picketh a quarell to translate the whole sentence : Yet nether sheweth one word / nor can shew lefte owte / to make for him / against me . Onely he saithe vndowtedly Cyprian in saing he would not deale with other bishops , &c. meaneth those churches and bishops which he had nothing to doo with : which is very straunge / seing he hath before made him archbishop / almost ouerall the world .

After he saith / he would not haue suffered them if they had bene off his owne charge : which is a grosse begging off that in question . for yt is debated whether he had any bishops vnder his charge . And what manner off interpretacion is this / we do violence to none , nor appointe lawes to none , that is to none in other Prouinces ? and euery bishop hathe power of the gouernment of of his owne churche , that is euery bishop owte off Cyprians prouince ? what a kold saying should this be / that nether he / nor any of his fellowes / vsed violence towardes bishops off other Prouinces ? With whom they hauing so small intercommuning / could scarce vse violence if they would . Or to say they appointed no lawes / to whom they had no coulor to gyue any ? And as this interprepretacion hauing lien in the Ans. rack / is pulled owt of all the ioyntes ; so that it is vtterly false / may appeare by that before alledged / owt off the Councell off Carthage : Where wordes of like effect are vttered by Cyprian / vnto the bishops off the same Prouince he was of . Last of all / becawse I may not haue that credite which the Ans. to vnderstand this place off Cyprian : yet I trust In loc. commu. c. de potest . minist. he will belieue Musculus . Who of this place / and others concludeth / that when Cyprian wrote , he did neuer so much as think off the power off Patriarches , off Metropolitanes , off the bishop off Rome : but esteemed that all bishops owght to haue like care , and power , euery one in his owne church . So beside this testimonie / that Cyprians priest was nether Patriarch / nor Metropolitane : he hathe also that he was bishop of one church / which is that I haue affirmed . For the autoritie which the archbishops / and bishops haue ▪ there is an other place : yt is sufficient here to shew / that they had no iurisdiction one ouer an other in Cyprians times . That owt off Cyprian / towching ministers sacrificing : is before answered .

To Cyprian saying / the vnitie off the church is interteined Diuis . 12. Pag. 364. by consent off bishops one with an other : the D. answereth / they agree neuer the worse by hauing a superior aboue them Albeit they agree neuer the worse / yet if they agree neuer the better : he owght as an vnprofitable tree / which occupieth place in the lordes orchard / be rooted owt . Althowgh it shal ( God willing ) appeare / that the Archbishops office is the knife which cut the cordes off vnitie : which both was / and otherwise might haue bene mainteined / amongest the bishops . The first reason why th archbishop is necessarie / is : because there may be one to assemble them together . As pag. 392. thowgh that was not doon before that office was heard off : or it could not be doon conueniently without an archbishop / by appointing one amongest them at euery off their Synodes / who should haue autoritie to call the Synode following . Which is likewise answer to his next reason / of putting them in minde off their duties . Al this may be seen / not onely by practise of reformed churches in diuers places / Fraunce especially ( where Synodes are assembled from all partes of the realme twise a yeare / notwithstanding al that dominion of one minister ouer an other / pulled vp by the rotes ) : but also in the primitiue church / by that recited of one Malchion . Euse . li. 7 ca. 3. Who being a simple Elder ( so far from the estate of a●● Archbishop / that he was not Bishop ) was president in the Councell off Antioch / assembled against Samosatenus heresie . If a simple Elder might gouerne the Bishops : yt shall be to great shame for them / not to suffer them selues to be gouerned for the time by one of their owne order / withowt making an archbishop . Wherby appeareth how vntollerable the D. is : which condemneth this order as inconuenient / confused / disordered .

Where he saith / it can not be but a great help , that one haue cheif care of prescruacion of vnitie : the office off an archbishop can put no further care for the church vpon any / then the Lord putteth on hym by vertue off the office off bishop . For if the gouernement off his owne church / take not vp all his thowghtes / and cares : whatsoeuer is left / is due vnto other churches by ordinance off the lord . Forsomuche therfore as euery bishop in the Prouince by calling off God / careth to the vttermost of his power / for the churches wherunto he is associated / and th archbishop can doo no more then what lieth in his power : it followeth that there can be no calling off men / which can ad vnto his care for this vnitie . If he saie that this institucion off men / causeth the care commaunded off god / the rather performed : firste yt is vntrue . for althowghe the ordinances off men / maie gyue a prick to the doynge off thinges owtwarde : yet they are not hable to moue the conscience / and inwarde affections / wheroff the care he speaketh off / is a fruicte . Then yf it had suche force / as to awake his care : yet that shoulde be with no aduantage vnto the churches of the Prounce / forsomuche as that woulde giue occasion vnto other bishops / off diminishing theirs : whilest they phansie with them selues a streighter bonde / to prouide for the vnitie off the churche in the archebishop / then in them selues . And so the care by this meanes reuiued in one / shoulde die in a great nomber . where he addeth / as yt is in other societies : yt hathe bene shewed that our Sauiour Christ / forbad that rule off one minister ouer an other in the churche / which maie be vsed in the common wealth . Althowghe I haue answered further vnto this pointe / where those societies are particularly specified .

Where he asketh / what if the bishops were deuided amongest them sel them selues ? who should compounde their controuersies ? He hathe his answer / that he may call them together / in whose hande the laste Synode lefte that autoritie ? And what yf the archbishop him selfe draw owte off his trace / and be ether deuided from all the bishops / or from the better / and sounder parte / standing this goodly order , who shall range him ? And when the D. saithe that th archbishop can not deale for appeasing off controuersies / but by persuasion : and that composition which is made by intreatie off parties / maie be made conueniently by equals / what needethe there any superior archbishop ? How vntruly the Ans. writeth / off the archbishops and bishops autoritie in our church / to hyde the hornes off their immoderate power / both in this diuis . and that before : the eyes / and eares off all men are witnes . But as he serueth th archbishops / and bishops in this defense : so for recompense off his paines / he maketh them waite vpon him : and hauing now set them on horseback by and by for shift of answer / he maketh them light / and goe a foote with their fellowes .

Cyprian saith the cause muste be heard , where the faulte Diuis. 13. pag. 363. was committed . the D. that is to be vnderstanded of the Prouince , or diocese . as if it were not hearde within the prouince / and diocese : when yt is hearde within that particular churche / where the controuersy groweth . Therfore to make good his answer / thus he must interprete thes wordes ( there where the faulte was committed it shall be heard ) : whersoeuer in the Prouince / or diocese the faulte is committed / yt must be hearde at the archbishops or bishops palace . The firste interpretacion is contrarie to the proprietie of speache . For seing matter rising in a particular church / is saide properly to rise there where yt was doone / and can not but improperly / and by figure be saide to rise in the Prouince / or 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . diocese : yt is manifest that Cyprian is made withowte any necessitie / to sprake improperly . As for the nexte interpretacion / yt is cleane contrary to Cyprians meaning . For when he will haue the matter there handled / where they may haue bothe accusers , and witnes . that can be by no meanes vnderstoode off the Archbishops / or bishops consistory . For the parties haue not their witnesses / and accusers there / whether they are constreined with greaate charges / and longe iorneis to transporte them . Where he saith Cyprian speaketh againste those which wente from Africk into Italie : I preuented that / shewing the reason is generall / and seruing aswell againste those / which will pull their causes vnto their hearing which dwell a 100. or 200. miles off them / as againste those which carie them from one contrey to an other : wherunto he answereth nothing . For if there shoulde be a bare opposition / betwene Africke / and Rome / and not rather betweene the place where the controuersie riseth / and that far of : as lawfull as yt ys for him to say / Cyprian meaneth not a particular churche where the cawse riseth , but the diocese , or Prouince : so lawfull ys yt for me to saie / that he meaneth nether diocese / nor prouince but onely that quarter which makethe the fourth parte of the worlde . So that by this meanes / the cause rising in Mauritania / maie be iudged in Aethiopia : which is more then 10. times farther a sonder than Rome from Carthage . And consequently yt should follow / that any controuersy rising in the churche off Englande / may be determined at Rome being a parte off Europe / as at the place ( by his answer ) where the cause rose .

Where he saith / there ys no Prouince with vs where bothe the accusers , and witnesses may not be browght : I graunt / if they come and leaue their busines at home : yf they die not by the way : if the parties be able to beare their charges . And with thes conditions they may be browght further . And by this exposition off the Ans. the triall made in passing the seas / which the councell off Africk after forbad / may be a great deale more commodious / then the archbishops . For they which dwell by the seaside / may both with more ease / and lesse charges haue end of their matters in Callis / Deep / Ireland / and Flaunders / then at Canterbury . Yea the triall from Carthage vnto Rome / is much easier : seing there was but three daies iorney betwene Rome / and Carthage . As appeareth by that Cato / to induce the Senate of Rome to desiroy Carthage : held owt a fig saying , that was but the third day , sithens that fig grew in Carthage . Therfore Cyprians argument ( by his interpretacion ) Plin. Nat. hist. li. 15. cap. 18. is not worth a shoe buckle / to proue that they owght not to flie from Carthage to Rome the passage being easter / then from one end of a Prouince to an other . Especially making suche large Prouinces as he doth : that is / one to conteine 160. bishoprickes , pag. 359. belike such as ours . Where he saith / this reason may serue as well againest Westminster hall : leauing that as impertinent vnto this question / it shall be sufficient to answer / that besides that there be many causes ended in lower courtes / houlden almost in euery village : he owght to vnderstand / that ecclesiasticall causes are to be handled with greater speed then ciuill : matters of conscience / more then of the pourse : the title of heauenvly inheritance / more then the earthly : of the life to come / then of this . So that althowgh the trial of ciuill cawses for the whole realme / were ( as he saith ) necessary a● Westminster : yet the same reason will not stand in ecclesiasticall .

In all thes places which the Ans. hath browght owt off Diuis. 13. pag. 365. Cyprian / Eusebius / Socrates / it is manifest that one bishop , is opposed vnto heretick bishops . Whereby may appeare how like it is which I haue alledged / that by one bishop / is vnderstanded not the vnitie off nombre / but off truth in religion . And that there be no doubt hereof / let Cyprians wordes be considered . That Cypri . Epist. 8. li. 1. there should be an other altar appointed , and a new priesthood besides one altar , and one priesthood , it can not be . Whatsoeuer he be which gathereth in an other place , scattereth : yt is adulterous , yt is wicked , yt is sacriledge , whatsoeuer the rage off men doth institute , wherby the ordinance off God is broken . Now except the Ans. will say it is wicked / against the word of God / adulterous / to haue two bishops in one citie : yt must follow that Cyprians wordes doo not bar many bishops to be in one citie . And what if it be shewed / that not onely in Cyprians time / but in Cyprians church there were diuers bishops ? Augustine speaking of the Donatistes / which seperated them selues from the church / for that they saw certein faultes vnpunished therin / saith : How did then Cyprian , and other the Lordes corne in that church ( meaning Carthage ) of vnitie eate the Lordes breade , August . 3. li ad Parm. 2. ca. and drink his cup , not with the people onely , or commen sort off the Clergie : but with the bishops themselues , which were couetous ketchers , and which shall not possesse the kingdome off heauen ? I woulde gladly vnderstand what Bishops they were like to be / with whom Cyprian did celebrate the supper off the Lord . were they not Bishops off the churche off Carthage ? If they were : it appeareth I haue not so vainly expounded Cyprian / as the Ans. would beare his reader in hand . And althowgh the D. be not able to proue / that ther was but one onely bishop in a citie in Chysostomes time : yet I graunt that was obserued in the moste places .

Whether I am able to shew that from Christes time there were two Bishops in one cytie , before appeared : now appeareth what a vaine crack it was / that all the godliest , and best learned expound Cyprians wordes off an Archbishop , when not one can be found to testifie it . Yet to th end he may haue some thing to mainteine this brag / he goeth about to make the writers differ from them selues . For if this place be off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his dioces ( as writers doo flatly affirme / in so much that the a a Artic. 4. diuis. 5. bishop off Salisbury bringeth in Cyprian speaking after this sort : For euery bishop ( saith Cyprian ) within his owne dioces , is the priest of God , &c ) : then yt cannot be vnderstanded of an Archbishop . For the autoritie Cyprian speaketh off / being the highest / and such as could not be controlled of any other bishop : yt must necessarily seclude tharch bishops autoritie / which is aboue a bishop . And as the Answ. to make Cyprians place serue his turne / was compelled to expound Priest archbishop , church Prouince : so to make the bishop and M. Fox help to beare owt his folies / he must expound dioces Prouince / and Bishop archbishop . And what manner of proofe is this / to conclude the greater by the lesse ? yf of an archbishops autoritie he had concluded a bishops / it had bene more probable : but off a bishops to conclude an archbishops / and off dominion ouer a dioces ( as he pretendeth ) to conclude dominion ouer one Prouince / is far owt off square . The next is answered in the beginning .

The first place is / that the bishop vpon that of Cyprian , saith : confusion , and sectes rise in a Prouince , or dioces , where the Bishops Diuis. 15. pag. 367. autoritie , &c. Here because the bishop maketh mention off Prouince : he concludeth that he speaketh off an archbishop . As if his wordes may not well be taken / that the confusion of secres insueth in a whole Prouince thorowghowt / because the bishops autoritie which be therin / is dispised . For beside that I haue shewed that the bishop can not ( sauing his former sentence which he soft repeateth ) expound Cyprians place off an archbishop : if he had in this place ment an archbishop / it had bene easie to haue coupled him with his Prouince / as he doth the bishop with his dioces . He asketh me what I call him , that hath gouernement off a Prouince ? I aske him where the bishop off Sal. saith / Cyprians place is to be vnderstood of that bishop / which hath gouernement off a Prouince ? doth the onely mention of the word Prouince ▪ infer an Archbishop ? If he proue an Archbishop / and Prouince relatiues / so that a man can not name the one / but he muste vnderstand the other : he saith some thing . Ad also that the Ans. dealeth vnfaithfully in this place . For the bishop making his conclusion both off Cyprian / and of a place off Honorius / Emperour : he propoundeth it as the conclusion of Cyprians place onely . Whereas if he could conclude off thes wordes ( within a prouince ) an archbishop : yet yt were easie to answer / that the bishop put in those wordes / in respect of the place cyted owt of the Emperour / and not in respect off Cyprians . Considering that within a dousen lines after / he affirmeth / that Cyprians place is vnderstanded off th autoritie off a Bishop within his seuerall dices : and by whole Brotherhood , a companie within a seuerall dioces .

For that off M. Nowell pag. 33. beside that whatsoeuer he speaketh there / is not vpon this place of Cyprian / but of an other : I haue shewed in the former booke / that cheif Prelate ys not alwaies vsed for a bishop . And that it is not altogether vnlike but M. Nowell might meane so / appeareth by that the D. cyteth owt off the 62. and 63. pag. wherehe taketh cheif priest and bishop , for the same . Howbeit because the autor him selfe ys aliue / and knoweth best what he meaneth : I am well content the meaning off his wordes be such / as him self shall best like off . Out off M , Fox he can not finde so much as a fig leafe / and therfore telleth vs how he saith , Rome was a patriarchall church , and therfofore not vnlike but Carthage was also : how by a dioces is ment a Prouince , and forsomuch as he allowed an archbishop , yt is like he expounded Cyprians place of an archbishop . The onely rehersall is too long a confutation . In the end are recited at large the wordes of M. Philpot. which attributing vnto Cyprian a dioces / declareth that he esteemed him a bishop / not an archbishop . For that he calleth him the Nouatians cheif Bishop : yt is far from the estate of an archbishop . He might well call him so in respect of his singular learning / and pietie : or in that he was bishop off the cheifest place in Afrik . And the same may be saied off Cornelius being Patriarch . For otherwise in autoritie he could not be : seing him self confesseth / that patriarches were appointed at the councell off Nice / about 150. years after . Albeit the truth is / that the appointement of those 4. patriarchall seates / was not by the Councell off Nice / but off Calcedon . Nether doth it follow that if Cornelius were a Pairiarch / therfore he was Prince off many bishops : onles he will say that becawse a a Tertull. aduers . Hermog. Tertullian calleth Philosophers Patriarches off Heretikes , and b b Ierom. praef. in Tit. Ierome Tacianus , the Patriarch of Encratites : therfore Philosophers / and Tacianus bore dominion ouer the Heretikes / or Encratites . He might be so called in that he was cheif father of the church off Rome / where he executed his office : as c c Ierom. in 3. cap. Isay . Ierome witnesseth off the Iewes Rabbines to haue bene called Patriarches : yet they had no gouernment / or rule / but in the seuerall Synagogues where they taught .

Now it appeareth the Ans. can not bring so much as one seely testimony / to proue this place of Cyprian vnderstood of th archbishops / or metropolitanes autoritie : besides that alledged of Muscu . flatly denying that Cyp. thowght of any Archbis . or Metrop . but onely of euery Bishop in his owne church : I will ad the testimony of d d Bucer agaynst thaccusa . of Choclaeus , and Gropperus to the Emper. Bucer / who affirmeth the very same that I. Shewing against the Pope / that Christ onely is vniuersall bishop / he assigneth this reason : For he is present with his sheepe , and with euery of them , and feedeth them vntill the end of the worlde : and for this cawse putteth ministers in his place , and that to euery church her seuerall minister . For he did not onely gyue Apostles , Prophetes , Euangelistes , and ministers off many churches once : but gyueth also daily vnto euery church off his her ministers , Pastors , and Doctors : and both instructeth , and leadeth them with his spirit , that they may serue their ministries , him self onely gyuing increase vnto their planting , and watering . For vnto euery one off them , he hath appointed a proper portion off the flock , as S. Cyprian testified by warrant off tradition off Christ , and his Apostles : and that with this condition , and power , that euery one together with his presbyterie , and Clergie should rule his whole flock , as one which should make account off his owne act : not vnto the Pope off Rome , but to the Lord . which is the Prince of Pastors . Amongest whom , no man might appoint him self bishop of bishops , or iudge an other , or be iudged of an other : wherupon the iudgement of the bishop belonged vnto Synodes , not vnto one bishop , as long as the policie off the church gyuen by th apostels , stoode . Therfore bishops were equall , not onely in power of the keies ( by which fable Latomus would elude the place of Cyprian ) but also in vse , and degree off power , and iurisdiction . In the end / shutting vp all that he had saied off the metropolitanes / he saith : This is the sentence off the catholike church , concerning the power of bishopes as well off Rome , as others , grounded on the word off God , approued by canons , obserued off all true bishops . Wherin Bucer affirmeth that this portion off the flock which Cyprian speaketh off / is the charge off euery minister in his seuerall church : and that by institution off Christ / and his Apostels / no minister or bishop can haue an other bishop to iudge him / but that if there be a fault in him / it is to be iudged by Synodes . Thus I leaue to the readers iudgement / how it was more easie for the Ans. to say / the godliest , and learnedest writers expound the place of Cyprian of an archbishop : then to shew it / when it cometh to proofe . And althowgh he fall flat vnder the bourden vndertaken in his first booke : yet as thowgh he had not half his lode / he pag. 550. hath charged him self a fresh . For where before he saied / the godliest , and learnedest expound this of an archbishop : now he saith / all learned writers expound it as he doth . It were well there were some reasonable proportion / betwene the toung and the hand . for it can not be but a fowle fault / to be so long tounged / and so short handed .

Before I come to Ieromes testimonie / the order off tymes for the better vnderstanding off this cause / requireth that those bothe autorities / and examples be answered / which the Answerer hath alledged / bothe before / owte off the Councell off Nice and Antioche / and after / pa. 470. &c. The nexte to the times off Cyprian / is Dionysius Alexandrinus : which ( saith he ) had vnder his iurisdiction all the churches in Pentapolis , as Athanasius testifieth in a certeine epistle , Apolog 2. First / there ys no suche thinge in all that booke / nor in no epistle conteined therin . The place he meaneth of / is in an epistle he wrote concerning Dionysius iudgement / againste the Arian heresie . Then / yt ys not saide ( as he reporteth ) that all the churches of Pentapolis were vnder his iurisdiction : but onely that he had care of those churches , or ( as the translators words be ) the care of those churches apperteined vnto him . Which what litle or no weighte they haue to proue archiepiscopall iurisdiction : shall be seene when we come to the place / where the sense of this to haue care , ys discussed . In the meane time yt is to be obserued for better triall of this matter / which I haue before noted owte of Eusebius : that he succeded in the bishoprick off Alexandria vnto his predecessor / withowte attributing vnto hym any further charge . And when as Euseb. declareth / that he writing vnto the churches in Egipte / wrote vnto them by the bare name of the brethren which were in Aegypte , withowte any title betokening anie bonde / or knot off mynisterie towardes them : and off the other parte writing Euse . li. 6. cap. 46. vnto the churches in Alexandria / intitleth that writing an exhortation vnto his flocke : he declareth euidently / that he estemed Alexandria his proper charge / and that ( sauing that bothe in respecte Aegypte was his contrey / and the peace of his owne churche was folded vp in the welfare of yt ) his care for Aegipte was generall / as for other churches .

And the very testimonie which the Ans. hathe alledged / yf yt be weighed : dothe sufficiently declare how farre Dionysius was / front that antoritie euer the churches off Pentapolis / which he imagineth . For there ys shewed / bow when he vnderstoode off certeine bishops there / leauened with the heresie of Sabellius : he sente messengers to them to call them backe from their heresie . And when they wente yet forwarde more impudently : what iurisdiction doothe he exercise againste them ? doothe he cause them to appeare before him ? send owt the sentence off excommunication / remoue them from their charges / suspende them / at the leaste vntill some triall off their amendement ? none off all thes : but saith / he was by this stubbernes off theirs , compelled to write againste them . And yet if Dionysius might haue vsed this autoritie / he woulde no dowbte : and if he had / Athanasius would by no meanes haue let it passe . For if he could haue alledged / that Dionysius had ether deposed / suspended / or excommunicated those Sabellian bishops : yt had bene a singular meanes to haue stopped the mouthe off the Arrians : which woulde haue borne men in hande / that Dionysius fauored Sabellius heresie / and consequently also theirs . And towching the gouernement off his owne churche in Alexandria : how farre yt was from that lordlie Euse . li. 7. ca. 20. dominion / the bishops / and archbishop vse now : maie appeare in that he calleth the elders off the churche off Alexandria / his felow elders .

After folowethe one Gregory / which he auoucheth owte of Euseb. 7. li. 24. to haue gouerned all the churches throwghe Pontus firste / this word all , is not founde there . Secondly / yt is vtterly vntrue that he saith / he gouerned all the churches . For Eusebius ioineth Athenodorus with him / as his matche in all pointes . So that if there were any archbishop there / it was two headed : contrary to the archbishops institution / supposed of his patrons . Thirdly / yt appeareth in an other place / where Eusebius speaketh of them againe / that they were not bishops off all the churches of Pontus / 7. lib. 28. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . but had onely their parishes / or churches in Pontus . And the cause why Euseb. made mention of those onely / was ( as is there apparant ) because they were the moste famous amongeste the Bishopes in those partes : and therfore by all likelihood chosen owte off the reste / were sent vnto the Councell off Antioche / gathered against the heresie of Sabellius . Therforè he which is saide off the D. to haue bene ruler off all the churches off Pontus / is founde to haue but one onely parishe in that circuite .

Peter / Bishop off Alexandria foloweth : which hauing regarde vnto the time wherin he died / was onely aboute eight yeares / before the Councell off Nice . So that the Answ. in saying he was 20. yeares before , must be vnderstanded of the tyme he entred into his bishoprick . Of him Epiphanius saithe / he had the administracion of all the churches of Aegypte , was archbishop . What manner off archbishoprick / and gouernement this was / may be gathered by that that Epiphanius saithe / Miletius was archbishop likewise , and had the gouernement together with him . And not that onely / but that Miletius occupied the seconde place in the archbishopricke with Peter . Wherby Epiphanius gyueth to vnderstande / that there was the third and fourth / and consequently as many archbishops / as there were bishops off name / and estimacion amongest them : which beside their owne / procured the good off other churches rounde aboute . This is further confirmed in that Epiphanius ( as rendring the cause why he calleth Miletius Archbishop / and to haue the seconde place after Peter ) saithe / Miletius seemed to excell the other bishops in Aegypte : And where yt is saide / that Miletius was vnder peter : yt is to be vnderstanded that he was vnder him in honor / and not subiecte vnto him as vnto a commaunder / or as to one which had dominion ouer him : as yt shall appeare by the Councell off Nice after / and as the discourse of Epiphanius storie / plainely shewethe . For where as betwene Peter / and his adherentes off the one parte / and Meletius and his felowes off the other / being shut in in prison for testimonie off the trwthe / there fell a controuersie abowte receiuing those which had fallen in time off persequution : Peter ( as Epiphanius reporteth ) desired , and made supplication vnto Miletius , and the rest saying , let vs receiue them , and appoint them a penance . And when he coulde not gaine his cawse by praier / and supplication : he spred owte a vaile in the middaste off the prison / and proclaimed by a deacon / that as manie as were off his syde ▪ shoulde come vnto him : and those which were off Melitius parte , shoulde goe to him . Wherupon a few ioined them selfes vnto him , the greater nomber remaining whith Melitius . In which counte off Epiphanius / there is nether any autoritie / or dominion pretended by Peter ouer the reste / nor any subiection acknowledged off the other . but there is to be seene contrariwise all felowlike behauiour of one towardes an other . And onles this be the propertie of an Archbishop / to be autor off a horrible schisme / and rente in the churche ( whereas yt ys vaunted off him / that he compoundeth schismes made by other ) ther appeareth nothing in Peter in that whole action / Archbishoplike . If the Answ. say / the prison was no place where he could exercise his archiepiscopall autoritie : the replie is easie / that he might as well exercise yt there / as owt off prison . For yt being a time off persequution / he coulde vse no where any other constreint then by the ecclesiasticall censures : and those ( hauing as appeareth a company with him in prison ) he might as well vse there / as being at libertie .

Hitherto I trust hath appeared / that there hath bene not so much as any footing / or kold sent ether off archbishop / or metropolitan suche as ours : yt followeth to examin that owt off the Nicene Councell , which bringeth the first tydinges of the Metropolitanes . Where we hauing confessed that there were Metropolitanes / denied that they were like ours how truly / resteth to be considered . First / that which the Answ. can most pretend owt off this Councell / for iurisdiction off Metropolitanes ouer Bishops off the same Prouince / is the bishop off Alexandria , owght to haue power ouer the bishops in Egypt , Lybia , and Pentapolis . Thes are the sounding wordes / and which carie the greatest noyse off Metropolitane autoritie . Yf therfore it fall owt that thes wordes to haue power / bring more shew in the eie / then weight in the balance : then the Answ. is greatly fallen from his hope / which thincketh to reape of this peace / dominion off the Metropolitan ouer other bishops . The wordes which the D. turneth g g 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 to haue gouernement , signifie in that place nothing but to ᵍ haue cheif dignitie , or honour Which is apparant / for that the same thing being attributed vnto Rome / Antioch / and other metropolitane churches / is vttered by the word a a 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . honorable reward , the same that b b 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . dignitie in the next canon where be speaketh off the bishop off Ierusalem : as it is also noted off c c De statu primitiuae Eccl. pag. 23. Villerius / where he confirmeth this signification off the word / d d 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . preeminence , owt off Plato . This may be further vnderstanded / by that Beza writeth vpon thes wordes / he gaue all these which belieued in him this dignitie , or prerogatiue , that they should be called the children off God . e Beza vpon 1. Iohn .

Now what this dignitie / and preeminence was / may easely be seen by that the bishop of Rome hauing f f 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . preeminence , or dignitie ouer the bishop off Constantinopel / Alexandria / &c. had nothing therby more then they / sauing onely the first place in their meetinges Seing therfore thes wordes translated to haue power , signifie nothing but to haue honour , which consisted onely in hauing the highest place : by thes wordes off the Councell groweth nothing to the Metropolitan / but onely to sit in the highest place at meetinges . This may also appeare by the same ʰ Councell / g Concil. Nic. can. 5. where yt is said / that if there rise disorder in any churche which is not compounded , it owght to be decided at the prouinciall Councell , which was therfore to be houlden twife euery yeare : in which faultes were to be corrected , not by the Metropolitane / but by the bishops together . And becawse the Councell here referreth vs / to that accoustomed before : yt is to be considered what that was / so far as we haue testimonie . The bishops assembled at Nice / browght their quarrels one against an other / Euseb. 2. li. de vit. Const . and offred them to the Emperour : which they would not haue doon / at least so generally / if there had bene any such order taken off referring their debates to the Metropolitan . The Emperour likewise receiuing their bils / and answering that it perteined Sozom. 1. lib. ca. 17. not vnto him to decide those matters : sendeth them not to their Metropolitanes to be iudged / but adiourneth them to the iudgement off God . Yet yf there had bene any suche autoritie ecclesiasticall off the Metropolitanes : the Emperour / as he was very religious in those obseruations / would not by all likelihood / haue failed in that .

Likewise writing ioyntly to Alexander bishop / and Arius Elder off Alexandria / amongeste other thinges he saith : it was not meet they should rule so great a people , being deuided amonge them selues . Where it is to be obserued / that howsoeuer thes wordes so great a people be taken / whether for the churche off Alexandria / or for all Agipt / &c. the Bishop gouerned not alone / but by consent / and aduise of the Elders of that church . Then if the Ans. will refer this gouernement to the whole countreis off Aegypt / Lybia / &c. and take it in that signification he doth / for bearing dominion , and commaunding the rest : not the bishop onely / but euery Elder off Alexandria / had commaundement not onely ouer the Elders / but ouer the bishops them selues off other churches . Which if it be absurd : that whereoff it followeth / must be likewise . This is all that I finde the Nicene Councell gyueth to the Metropolitan aboue the rest : how litle it is / and how small a part off that the Answ. presumeth / let the reader iudge . That he owght to be no bishop , which is made withowt consent off his Metropolitan , is a very seely prerogatiue : seing yt was the order of the church in those times / that all the bishops off the Prouince / shoulde be at the Theod ▪ 5. li. 23. ca. making off a Bishop . And as the election off the people was voide / if the Metropolitane were not at it : so was it also if there were not three bishops at the least present . Let vs see now whether the practise of the Metropolitanship / will fall owt any more fanourable for this pretended iurisdiction .

Athanasius foloweth : on whom the D. woulde fasten this archbishopricke : firste / because Ischaras submitted him selfe vnto him by lettres . As if euery one which hath offended an other / doothe by his submission acknowledge him an archbishop / whom he hathe offended : and as if Ischaras owght not to haue doone as muche vnto any bishop in the Prouince / yf he had belonged vnto his parishe / as he did vnto that of Athanasius . Secondly becawse Arsenius , and those off his diocese , wrote lettres off submission vnto Athanasius . The print off the diocese is so deeply set in the D. heade / that what soeuer he meeteth with / he turnethe into yt . For there is there no mention off diocese / but off a citie . As for the submission he maketh / yt is not to Athanasius / but vnto the ecclesiastisticall canons : onely he acknowledgeth him Metropolitane / and that withowt his sentence he will make no Ecclesiasticall decree perteining vnto the churche : which we denie not . For we confesse Athanas . Apol. 2. that there were then Metropolitanes . and as Arsenius coulde not make anie decree to wching the whole churche in the prouince : no more coulde Athanasius withowte Arsenius : as hath bene before owt off the former booke declared . But that he was subiecte vnto Athanasius , there ys not a worde : the cleane contrary is to be plainly seene . For Arsenius in his fare well writeth thus ; we and those with vs , salute the whole companie off sacred men which are in thy iurisdiction . by which wordes he manifestly exempteth him selfe / from the iurisdiction off Athanasius . Wherupon yt muste folowe / that the office off Metropolitaneship in those daies / implied no subiection / nor autoritie to commaunde / ouer other bishops in his prouince . And Athanasius in calling the bishops there / his fellow ministres often times : declareth Athana . Apol. 2. in what place he had them / not as subiects / but as his fellowes . And that the A. escape not with that Popishe shifte / that Athanasius therby did declare his humilitie : yt is to be seene in that booke / that the other bishops doo more then half a dosen times / call him their felowe mynister , barely / withowte other title . Now if Athanasins not off right / but off his greate humilitie called him self their felowe mynister : yet the other bishops in so calling him / when they were subiecte vnto him / and at his commaundement / are to be charged not only as voide off Christian humilitie / but also as forgetfull euen off all commen ciuilitie / and good manners .

That added off Athanasius visiting off Mariotes , and the Prouinces there , as they are called : perteineth nothing vnto this question . for there were no bishops in that place : and what he did in that behalfe did not as Archbishop / but as Bishop : that territory belonging vnto Alexandria . And not onely Archbishops / but bishops / yea Elders visited the parishes off other bishops . As for Tom 1. Concil. Const. Cart. 4. 33. cap. that the parishes in the territory off Mariotes , had neuer● bishop , but belonged vnto Athanasius : beside that I haue shewed that corruptions had greatly preuailed at that time / it is to be obserued that it is there put as a strange thing / and vnwonted that one bishop should haue so large grownd . For vnles that be the autors ende : there was no cause why he shoulde haue vsed that kinde off speach . Which may better appeare / forsomuche as Socr. li. 1. ca. 27. Socrates speaking off this storie / interlaceth the same sentence : when as speaking off the places off bishops els where / he neuer mentioneth any such thing .

The canons off Arles Councell , off that attributed vnto the Apostles , and of Antioch follow . The first / hath nothing not graunted / and serueth for filling onely . The second / supposed of the Apostles / ys 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . the same with that of Antioch . That off Antioch / is first vnfaithfully translated / after vntruly gathered vpon . For where the Councell saith / that the Bishop praesident in the Metropolitan citie : should haue care of the Prouince , because all men which haue busines vse to come from all places , to the Metropolitane cytie . he hath pag. 332. turned the wordes off the Councell vpside downe / putting in steed off because all men &c. wherfore all men , &c. making that the effect which it maketh the cause / and the cause which it maketh th effect . The Councels meaning is / that forsomuche as men doo vsually for other busines / resort to the Metropolitane cytie : therfore the bishop of it was most fit / to whom controuersies should be browgt . He translateth also for parish , dioces : and so in steed that the councell supposeth the bishop to haue vnder his charge often times / beside those in the towne he dwelleth in / certein villages which resort vnto his churche / as in Hitchin / and diuers other places with vs : he to be sure to put in enowghe / supposeth by his translation / that the bishops had a diocese / and their places beside . If by diocese he meane suche as ours : I would gladly knowe / what those places were / which the bishops had beside their dioceses : when as in the largeste spred of bishops / they were notwithstanding tethered within the compas off other dioceses . Yf by it he meane a parishe / suche as euery minister with vs is assigned vnto : why vseth he diocese , to deceiue the reader / especially when the Councells wordes pulled him to the worde off paris he ? Yf he will excuse this later faulte / and laie yt vpon the translatour of the Councels / which turneth Parish . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Dioeces . Dioces : he confirmeth at vnawares that which I saide / that at the first a diocese and parishe were often confounded . Howbeit that the Councels wordes can not beare that significacion / as we take Dioces / is before declared .

Vpon thes wordes he gathereth / the hishops are subiecte vnto the metropolitane , and that the councell willeth them to be so : which is very pag. 333. pag. 471. vntrue , for there is no worde in that canon / that proueth subiection / muche lesse expresseth . As for the honor which they should giue him : I haue shewed what it is owte off the Councell off Nice : the care for other churches in the Prouince cometh after to be considered . For the bringing off matters vnto him / which they coulde not ende at home : yt appeareth by diuers places / that they were not browght to him to determin / but onely to make relation off / vnto the prouinciall councell : and that he coulde ende Triparti . hist. li. 9. cap. 13. Carth. 4. ca. 25. Constanti . 1. cap. 3. no matter / but which aduise off other Bishops in the same Prouince . In the Africane Councell yt was decreed / that if a a a Aphr. conc. 87. c. bishop striuing with an other about the territories , entred into them withowt hauing resolution of the other bishops : althowgh he had the peoples consent , and Metropolitanes letres , he should leese his cause . In the Councell of b b Sard. conc 9. c. Sardis / abowt the same time with that off Antioch / the bishops call their Metropolitane , brother , and fellow bishop . What Lordship and dominion can be gathered off thes thinges / I know not .

And that this was the first institution off Metropolitanes which I haue alledged / and that I haue herin not straied from the meaning of the Councels / may appeare by the testimonies Institut. 4. li. 4 ca. sect. 4. off others / which haue spoken off this matter . Caluin saith : they were instituted , for preseruation onely of the policie : and what that was / he sheweth by the bishop / the same in his owne churche / which the Metropolitane in the Prouince . That yt was as the office off a President in a Councell , to propound matters , togather 4. li. 4. c. sect 2. the voices , &c and to put that in execution , which was decreed by the rest : denying flatly that he had any dominion ouer the Elders off the same churche , and affirming that he him self was subiect to the companie of the elders The same therfore by his iudgement / must be the state off the Metropolitane / In his aswer to Choclaeus and Groperus : of their accusat . to the Emp. towardes other Bishops . Bucer saith / there were certe in bishops assigned to the cheif seates , wheroff they had a singular care : which did not be haue themselues as bishops ouer the bishops off those dioceses , but if any of them faulted : admonished him as one brother doth an other , as one fellow , and companion in office doth an other . And if the bishop admonished , ether did not , or could not amend the fault : he made relation of the whole matter vnto the Synode . After he sheweth that at the first the excellencie , and preeminence off the bishop off Rome , Constantinople , and Alexandria , &c. was not off power and iurisdiction , but of knowledge , zeale , care , and help of others : which those cheif bishops did so yeald vnto the churches , that they left the whole right off the bishops office , equall with that they them selues executed , vnto euery bishop . Bullinger / after he had proued all dominion / primacie / and maioritie Serm. 57. vpon the Apocal. / forbidden by our Sauiour Christ vnto the minister / saith : From the beginning the Apostels , and ministers off the churches which folowed the rule off the Apostels , gouerned their churches equally , withowte that one was preferred before an other ( which he offereth to proue by manie testimonies ) : and aboute the councell off Nice , and a litle before , Metropolitanes by mans ordinance not to be contemned , were receiued : which should as it were be presidentes vnto the reste , or rather serue all the reste in calling Synodes . And yt was very warely prouided , that he should not be called the primate , leste any man shoulde thinke , that he was superior vnto other in power , but in order onely .

Wherin almoste all the poinctes off the Archbishop / and Metropolitane / debated betweene the Answ. and vs / are conteined . For firste / he denieth that there was any preferment of one minister aboue an other / in the Apostles times . Secondly he saith / the office off the Metropolitane came in a litle before the Councell off Nice . Thirdly / that it was not lawfull for that metropolitane to be called primate . Fourthly / that he had no power ouer the reste / but serued onely for keping of order in meetinges . All which thinges we affirme / and the D. denieth : and that not withowte a triumphe . As for that he saith / this institution of man is not to be dispised it appeareth that he ment not to commend it / but onely to signifie that if yt had remained in that simplicitie it might haue bene the easlier borne : especially / considering they haue no such order off Metropolitanes / with them . The B. off Salisbury / vnto Harding obiecting that the primates had autoritie Defens . Apolo. 2. pa. 3. c. 5. diuis . ouer inferior bishops / answereth : they had it by agreement , and coustome , but nether by Christ , nor by Peter , nor Paul , nor by any right off Gods word . Wherby not onely ys confirmed / that whiche I propounded / off my not variyng from the godly writers : but also falleth the D. dreame / that they were instituted by the Apostles . Yea further appeareth / that their institution with autoritie ouer other / was vnlawfull : as that which hath no manner warrant owt off the word off God .

Hauing answered the Councells / I returne vnto Ieromes place / as yt is set downe off the Ans. He saith / it is a poore refuge to discredite the autor . I spared the autor / casting part of the error vpon In 3. c. diuis. 16 p. 369. the times wherin he liued : which I proued corrupter and further from the truth left by th apostles / by a reason which he could not so much as wrangle with : althowgh as towching the proofe off an archbishop / or bishop suche as ours / I am content the Ans. set vp his credit as much as he will . He saith / there is no difference betwene Cyprians bisbop , and Ieromes . Seing he will needes haue it so / let one measure be off both : and therby I trust shall appeare / off that which I haue spoken before / that Ieromes bishop is lower by heade and shoulders / then they for whom his autoritie is houlden owt . Howbeit if in Cyprians time / the bishop onely had not the laying on of handes / and ordeining him that was chosen to the ministrie by the church / but the Elders : and he did nothing in his church , or parish but with aduise of Cypr. 10. Epist. li. 3 the Elders theroff : yt appeareth that Ieromes bishop / althowgh differing onely from an other minister / in ordeining Elders / and Deacons / had somwhat encroched vpon the boundes off the presbitery / more then Cyprians Lastly he saith / for the corruption off times , this kinde of bishop was deuised . I willingly giue testimonie vnto those gouernours / or at least the most off them / that they had a good meaning in that inuention off man : but that it was remedy against the corruptions / I deny . And to the reasons before alledged for proofe therof / let this be added : that euen from the first day / wherin this deuise was established / the corruption in the church was not deminished / but grew / and got strenght by litle / vntill the whole face of the earth was couered / and the power off darcknes / in the fulnes off Antichristes kingdome / wholy setled . Likewise / that the first resistance by any setled church against that corruption / was by those which abolished that deuise off man / and receiued the order in the Apostels times / towching the equalitie off ministers . As the Bohemians / Merindoles / the churches in Germany / and Geneua : whose standerd bearers ( as partly hath appeareth / and more hereafter shall ) fowght against this stately dominion both of bishops / and archbishops

The next diuis . I leaue to the readers iudgement / referring him to that answered in the beginning . In the next / as one whose forehead is more hard then Adamant / he shameth not still pag. 371. to affirme / that this manner off bishop , and archbishop was in the Apostles time : notwithstanding the autor owt off whom he draweth his proofes / confesseth that at the first there was no difference betwene a bishop and an Elder : and that after it was decreed / that in euery church one onely should haue the name of bishop . Yf it were the first institution that they shoulde be one / and the first institution be the Apostels institution : it was the Apostels institution that they shoulde be all one . yf the Apostels did reuoke this institution off theirs : shewe their handes / bringe forthe their euidence . Ierome prouethe by diuers testimonies off scripture / that a bishop and elder were one / according to S. Paul. Therfore if the D. auoide this autoritie : he must shewe vs the Apostels autoritie in writing . for herin yt is trwe that the lawe saith / matter of writing and recorde , can not be auoided but by that of as high a nature . He gathereth that this order of bishops / and archbis . was in th apostles times / because there were schismes then . I haue by this reason proued in an other place / that th●●e were no archbishops : where if he had any thinge / he should haue spoken . And how is he bewitched which seeth not the wordes of his autor ? For when a a ad Eua. Ierome saith / this came by custome : he euidently declareth that ●● was not by determinacion of the Apostels . The same declareth b b in an Epistle vnto Iero. Augustin when he saith / the office of a bishop was greater then off an other mynister , as towching the names off honor , throwghe a custome off the churche , which nowe hathe gotten the vpper hand . Likewise when c c Ad vsus Lucif . Ierome saithe / this preferment of the bishop is not by any necessitie of lawe , but for that yt was graunted to honor him withall : yt ys manifeste that yt was not by the Apostlels determinacion . For yf yt had bene their institution : yt had bene necessarie .

After admitting yt was after the Apostels / he procedeth to answer d d Contr. Prax. Tertullian which saithe / that ys true which is first , that ys false which is later . But how cometh yt to passe / that he anwereth not that alledged owte off our Sauiour Christes ᵉ wordes : which calleth the Pharisies vnto the firste institution ? that Mat. 19. ●● . was belike to harde for him to byte vpon . And the answer vnto Tertullian is absurde . For he bringeth him in reasoning as he vseth : that is / prouing the thinge in controuersie / by that a like doubtefull . For if the rule of Tertullian extende yt selfe no further / then vnto thinges he there speaketh of / and in debate : his reason is no reason / but a giddie turne aboute / wherin altowghe greate paines be taken / yet there is no grownde gotten . Wheras Tertullian proue the / that Praxeas iudgement of our Sau. Christe was therfore naught / because yt was new / and new because yt was not agreing with that gyuen by the scripture . Moreouer his answer to the place / presumeth that the gouernement off the churche is not a matter off faithe / and saluacion : which is the question . And as for his Phantasies he resembleth my reason with / they haue nothing like . For beside that there were Christian magistrates / baptisinges in churches / communion ministred vnto more then 12 ▪ in th apostels times / and off their alowance : the Apostels neuer tawght that there should be no Christian magistrates / no baptisinges hut in riuers / no eating off thinges strangled / &c. ( the contrary off all which they plainly taught / ordeining onely that the Gentils should support the Iewes / in strangled thinges / abut they rawght that a bishop and traching elder be all one / and neuer alowed that one Pastor shoulde take the name off a bishop from all his fellows within 40. myles compas . The testimonie owt off Tertull / maketh way for Montanus heresie : In the ●● Tractat ▪ wherof I haue spoken beforé .

Vnto the nexte diuis . he answereth not . For yt being plaine that the Apostels tawght / that a bishop and elder were all one : because he had nothinge to answer / he leueth that / and runnethe backe to that handled in the beginning / off the equalitie off ministers . As for the testimonie owte of Zuinglius : firste yt is vntrw / that the Anabaptistes obiecte this place againste Zuinglius , which I haue pressed him with : secondly / yt is vntrue that they obiected vnto him in the like case which wee doo . for in all their controuersies with him / they haue not one of those pointes now debated . And where he saith / Tertullians wordes serue not / because thes degrees are not againste the truth : let him denie if he dare / that this is the truth off God / that a Bishop / and an other minister off the word / be all one . Then let him answer whether thes sayinges ( a bishop / and an other minister off the word are all one : a bishop / and an other minister off the word be not all one ) be opposed / and set one against an other . If he can deny none off these / then it ys iustly concluded : that this inuention off man / which hath made a bishop to differ from another mynister off the worde / is againste the truth .

Because I loue not that compas off wordes / which the D. delighteth in / I concluded shortly / and yet sufficiently to the vnderstanding Diuis. 20. &c. pag. 372. &c. off any / that dothe not willingly blindefolde him selfe . My argument ys : The best deciding off controuersies , was in the apostels time : but that was not by archbishops : wherfore the best deciding of controuersies , is not by archbishops . for proofe that yt was not by archbis . / I set downe that there were no archebishops then . Vnto this deformed face off reason ( as he calleth yt ) let vs see how formally he answereth . Firste he saith / we are not bounde to the forme of gouernement , vsed by the Apostels : and therin referreth him selfe to that he hath / and shal saie : where also let him take his answer . Secondly / that althowghe the Apostels had not Diuis . 19. Pag. 310. the name off Archbishops / yet they had the office : which I haue shewed to be a shift of the Papistes . Then yt is to be obserued / how he proueth that th apostels had the office of an archbishop / 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . The meane is consequente to bothe the extremes . and in what good logicke . Archbishops haue the direction off many churches , the ending off controuersies , &c. the Apostles had the same : therfore the Apostels were archbishops . by this reason a man maie proue not onely diuers / but contrary thinges to be all one : seing contraries haue diuers thinges wherin they agree . So that first this kinde off reasoning hath the fault of those ridiculous argumentes / which the D. propoundeth pag. 316. secondly yt taketh for graunted / which is the question . For he presumeth that the Archbishops office kepeth the church in godly quietnes : which is debated . Thirdly / to proue the Apostels autoritie in the churches ( which is not in question ) he hath made a greate muster of testimonies : to proue the archbishops / not a word . After he cyteth Ambrose / to proue that Apostles are bishops . Yt is greate merueill if he kepe good order in the church / for whose establishement the Answ. is constreined / thus to confound / and make a broile off all : and it is before confuted .

Howbeit admitting that the bishops succede vnto the Apostels in preaching the word / and gouerning the church : I haue In 3. Tra. Diuis. 4. shewed how that is a whip to driue the archbishop cleane owt of the church off God . And this is here to be obserued / that when it is saide the bishops succede vnto the Apostels &c. that must be vnderstanded off the Apostles bishops / and such as they instituted . For what bishops haue better right to succede the Apostles / then they ? But those were ( as I haue shewed ) bishops off singular congregations / bishops which had no superiotitie ouer their fellowbishops / as Ierome doth confesse . In the end he saith / If I can proue by good autoritie , that one was gouernour amongest the 12. Apostles : it shall not seme strange to haue an archbishop ouer a Prouince . If vpon this that one had gouernement of 12. assembled in a particular place / he can conclude that there should be one gouernour off the ministers in a Prouince : I can with better reason conclude / that there may be one to gouerne all the ministers in the worlde . For if because one gouerned twelue / therfore one may gouerne all in Prouince : then becawse one may gouerne all in a Prouince / I will conclude that one may gouerne all in the worlde . As towching the number off those which are gouerned / there is not so much difference betwene the ministers off a Prouince / and the ministers off the whole church : as betwene 12. and the ministers off some whole Prouince . Towching the distance off place / yt is as much betwene a Prouince / and the wole extent off Christianitie : as betwene a particular place off an acre breadeth / and some Prouince . Wherfore this reason is more fauorable to the Pope / then to the Archbishop . Peters superioritie shall be after seen : where also this sentence of Ierome shall be answered . Onely here let it be obserued / that the Answ. hath borowed this reason off Pope Anaclete / which alledgeth it to proue Archbishops . Tom. 1 : Concil. li. 3. ca. ● . Hierar . ecclesia . And it is browght also of Pighius against the protestantes / which denied that there owght to be any archbishops : as shall appeare herafter more at large .

The place off Caluin / is handled afterward : Bucers vpon the Ephes. I haue answered . That owt off his booke de Reg. Ch. the same in effect / hath the same answer . Howbeit it is here to be noted / how the D. thorowgh greedy desire off seeming to say somwhat / putteth downe with one hand that he setteth with the other . For to the maintenance off the archbishop and bishop / here be browght two testimonies / one of Ierome / thother of Bucer cleane contrary . If Ierome say true / that the superioritie off one Bishop ouer an other is by coustome , not by institution off God : then is that vntrue pretended out off Bucer / that it pleased the holie goste yt should be so . For if it be off the holie goste it is the institution of God . The D. therfore must forgoe one off thes / seing that both will neuer drawe in one forowgh . The contrarietie with my self , which the glosse chargeth me with / is for that pag. 349. I saied owt off Eusebius / that as long as th apostles liued , if any went about to corrupt the doctrine , they dit it in the darck : and here ( owt off the Apostle ) I affirme / there were heresies , and schismes . Wherin what contrarietie there is / and what a trifler this is / let the reader iudge . sauing that if there were any contrarietie : it is not mine with my self / but Eusebius with the Apostle .

The Answ. would gird vp his Archbishop in smaller roume / that he might seme les growen owt off faschion . He saith Diuis . 22. Pag. 373. &c. therfore / the archbishop when a schisme , or heresie riseth , determineth yt according to the law established by the church . Wherin he speaketh absurdly / considering that the church can make no other rule / wherby he may procede in decision off schismes / and heresies : then in referring him to the rule off the scripture . So the summe off this answer is / the Archbishop may not determin the matter at his pleasure / but according to the word off God . As thowgh the question were / by what rule controuersies should be decided : and not by whom . For when the controuersie at Antioch was referred to the Apostles / &c. in Ierusalem : it was not permitted vnto them otherwise to iudge off it / then according to the word . Now therfore let it be obserued how aptly the D. answereth . To abat● the swelling autoritie off the Archbishop / I alledge that in deciding controuersies / yt is not permitted to any one to determin what is the will off God in that behalf . The D. saith / the archbishop must determin by the word off God . As thowgh if the matter had bene committed to S. Paul onely / it should not haue bene with the same bond off keping him to the word : yet yt was not so committed / as I haue alledged . And if he think more succour for him in the wordes he vsed / the archbishop must determin according to the rule of the church : it is certein also that the companie of Apostles / and Elders in Ierusalem / and what companie soeuer meeteth together abowt the ending of such matters / is subiect vnto all lawful and commendable orders off the churche / prouided for the more orderly proceding in that behalf . So that there being nothing here alledged by the D. which agreeth not vnto the Apostles / and Angels themselues : the excessiue autoritie off th archbishop doth still appeare / in that he alone endeth controuersies / which in the Apostolike church was not committed but vnto many .

For as for that in the next diuis . ( he compoundeth not controuersies by him self alone ) onles he meane that he hath his seruantes the Chaunceler / and Archdeacon / or some other off his owne ch●●s● ▪ the booke set owt by th archbishop of late / doth declare the contrary : and the experience off his visitacions / and deposing off ministers doth openly conuince him of vntruth . If he say he is not alone / he hath them following him : he must vnderstand / that becawse ether the archbishop carieth their voices vnder his girdell / or yf they vse the freedome which is meet / yet the approbacion dependeth vpon the archbishops beck : he can no more account them to be diuers / then a man and his shadow following him . And where in his former booke he saith / the cheif office off an archbishop is to compound contentions , schismes , &c. here being put to his shift / he changeth Pag. 35● . his speach / saying / it is his principall office to prouide that contentions , &c. be cut of . Where he addeth / or els with the Princes consent he setteth an order in a prouinciall Synode : If there be any Synode / ether to take the iudgement owt off his hand / or controll the sentence gyuen by him / it is like to be sore against his will . So that the remedy off this mischief / dependeth onely vpon the Cyuill power : which if ether yt be ennemy to religion / or entangled with the present heresie ( as hath / and may herafter come to passe ) : the churche being withowt remedy must languish / and pyne away .

He saith / this example of the matter caried to Ierusalem , proueth that euery parish within yt self , hath no absolute autoritie to end controuersies , but it behoueth to resort vnto the cheif church : the contrary wherof appeareth . For in that they both debated the cawse amongest them selues / and when they coulde not agree / decreed to send yt to Ierusalem : yt ys sufficiently declared that they had autoritie to end it amongeste them / and that yt was not wrunge from them by necessitie off law / or pretence off higher autoritie : but voluntarily sent vp to Ierusalem . Althowgh for this place in hand yt ys sufficient / that the deciding off controuersies hung not vppon the mouth off one man / were he neuer so sufficient : but were referred vnto th assemblies of the Auncients / and ministers of the word . As for his olde shiftes of the weaknes of negatiue argumentes of autoritie , and of examples of the scripture , and th apostolike church : their folie is opened before . Here he taketh on against my vnskilfulnes in the scriptures , which referred that vnto ministers Diuis. 24. pag. 375. which is spoken off all the church . Howbeit if he had conferred the text / he should haue found that th apostle speaketh of the Prophe thes / and not of the whole church . For he biddeth that b b 1. Cor. 11. 29. 31. two or three of the Prophetes should speake , and the other ( that is to say Prophetes ) should gyue iudgement . Which appeareth by the reason added / c c ver. 32. the sprite off the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes . Therfore the D. corrupteth the place / and the argument to proue that not one minster / but many owght to determin of doutfull causes / is vntowched .

d d diuis 25. pag. 375. Where I pressed him with this / that e e Ephes. 4. 13. vnitie is fully mainteined by the ministeries which God hath ordeined ▪ he asketh how oft I will alledge it . Yf it be a fault in me / to alledge one place often vpon diuers occasions : what is it in him to alledge one thing so continually / vppon the same occasion ? If he would haue opened his eyes / he should haue seen that I vsed an argument proper to this place / and not vsed before . For where he pretendeth the archbishop was ordeined to kepe vnitie : I shew that withowt him / vnitie is perfectly kept : wherunto he answereth nothing but as before . But I will serue his tast / and giue him change . For the Apostle a litle before exhorting to vnitie / bringeth also this reason : one body , one spirit , one hope , one Lord , Eph. 4. 5. one faith , one baptisme , one God , &c. Wherby appeareth that the apostle tooke thes ones , to be sufficient to kepe the people off God in vnitie . And if to haue an archbishop had bene so necessary : the apostle shoulde haue fowly forgotten him self / hauing so fit a place to speake of him . And as this is aptly opposed / against the pretended peace by a Pope : so is yt likewise / against that surmised to be browght by the archbishop .

Where I ask / what buckler we may haue to hould owt Diuis 26. pag. 376. against the Papistes , which come vpon vs with the name of traditions off the apostles , if we admit that there were archbishops ordeined by them , wherof the scripture maketh no mention : he answereth there can be no daunger in them , so they be not made necessarie to saluacion , but such as receiue alteracion . Which althowgh it be cleane contrary to that he saide before / where he bindeth In 2. Tra. according to him ca. 3. pag. 100. vs to obseruation of them / as I haue shewed : yet it shall be sufficient here to let him vnderstand / that he hath vtterly barred him self from this answer / for that he a a pag. 35● . saith / this ministrie of the Archbishop is necessarie , yea most necessarie . Now if it be most necessarie , for preseruacion of vnitie off the church : yt is plaine that it is necessarie also for the saluacion of yt . For the next diuis . I haue shewed Diuis. 15. how absurdly the D. defendeth this rouing : where let the reader iudge what difference there is / betwene our archbishop and Ieromes bishop / which differed nothing from a commen minister / but that he had the ordeining off ministers . And here I call once againe vpon him / to shew any godly and learned writer / which expoundeth this place of Ierome off an archbishop : to see if he be any happier in this place / then he was before in Cyprians . The Bishop off Salisb . b b Defens . Apol. 4. p. 14. c. 1. 2. d. affirmeth / that the very meaning off Ierome is , off euery bishop in his dioces : and Harding in the end beaten downe with the light off the place / is compelled to c c Arti. 4. diu. 15. confesse it . The next I leaue to the reader to iudge / by that alledged on both sides .

d d Diuis. 29 &c. pag. 477. &c. The D. saith / I refuse Ierome in a matter off storie , yet I denie no part off his storie : wherin he seemeth to haue lost all commensense . For who ( in whom there is any light off iudgement ) would say it is matter off storie / whether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest , is remedie againste heresie or no ? I● perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme / and place as is set downe by Ierome / likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace : and none off thes is denied . but whether this cawse were well assigned / and whether this supposed to preserue peace / banished godly peace : is the question . If this be a matter off storie : storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off . Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with e e in 63 di. pag. 411. after / in Iustines testimonie : where likewise I denie no part off his storie . Yf this be to discredite men / to say / their autoritie owght not to weigh further , then yt hath weight ether off scripture , or some reason grownded theroff : then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time . For by thes weightes / I haue esteemed the best . But I leaue to be considered / what a popish tyrannie he goeth abowt to bring into the church : which lifteth the credit of any / be he neuer so godly and learned / aboue that which I haue here alledged

Where he saith / I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie , in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger , when all is doon at the pleasure off one , as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other : yt is but a vaine shifting hole . For althowgh thes wordes ( at the Pleasure and lust off one ) be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise / and I willingly confesse I vsed them / becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie / seldome or neuer deserueth better : yet my wordes following declare / that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one / and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically / and many moderatly . For supposing that both the Archbishop / and those which gouerne in commen be godly / and catholike : I affirme that he being one / is sooner drawen into error then many / sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie . In answer wherof / and reasons wherwith this is confirmed / the D. falleth flatly into that / wherewith he chargeth me . For in steed that he should haue marched many godly / and learned ministers with one / he matcheth him with the multitude / and commen sort : and in steed off comparing one ruling by law / with many gouerning by the same / he compareth him with a lawles companie : and in steed off comparing a litle water with much of the same kinde / he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead , with much fennish and muddy . Which what leaden answers they be / let the reader iudge . For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in / a man may proue it better to haue but one eye / then two : becawse some see better with one / then other some with both .

His answer to that off preferring contention before wicked peace , that we haue the true doctrine , and right administration of Sacramentes , &c. and therfore no contention is to be moued : is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether . For the question is not of the estate off our church / but off all generally : nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine / &c. but by what way yt ys best kept . His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes , is more fond . For I shewing by yt / that contention is better then wicked peace : he answereth / the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey , and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies . As if the fire off the truth which I spake off / and so called a a Luk. 12. 49. off our Sauiour / can consume any thing but straw / stuble / &c. or b b Philip. 1. 18. the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth / allthowgh by contention : or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorance / and errors are like an haircloth / which is the time I spake of . And where hauing shewed that th archbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth / I admit by way off disputation that he were the fittest : adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error when they are fallen into it , this in commoditie owght to driue vs to some other gouernement : he answereth / a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection , ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes . Where first / I refer the reader to that before / that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement / an other of the comment wealth : which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted .

Secondly / the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error : then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie . For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the commen wealth so extreme / wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it / and consequently off the church . But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth / and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder : there is nothing but destruction and ruine / withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church . Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth / as a church tyrant vnto the truth : there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth / then in the church : as that which can not stray so far as the other / from the end wherunto it was ordeined . Moreouer / the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned / is / for that it is one off those gouernementes / which God hath established / and allowed by his word . But the Archbishoprick ( to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God ) yt is sufficient in this consideration / that yt hath no allowance off the same . For therupon foloweth / that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued / can not destroie the lawfull vse off them : yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off men / may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters / be worthely reiected . So yt may be seen / that althowghe the Ans. would make one case off a Magistrate / and archbishop : yet there is as far distance betwene them / as betwene heauen and earth . Yt resteth to shewe / that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace / that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes / and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces . Againste which the Ans. alledgeth / firste the testymonies off Cyprian , and Ierome . Wherin besyde that I haue shewed / that they helpe him not : yt is before declared / that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all / nor Ieromes ( the ordination excepted ) but by common consent off all the elders . Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes ( vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops autoritie ) : but also for that they had felowlike autoritie / in the deciding off controuersies which rose in their seuerall churches / accordinge vnto the lawes .

After / where I quoted certeine places oute off the decrees / and other Canons / to proue the contention for thes offices : the Ans. acknowledgeth nothing there / that carieth any sounde that waies . Albeit the sound was cleare enowghe / if he had not bene deafe of that eare . For to what ende both in the Nycene Councell ( where the Metropolitanes are first hard of / and when they were yet in the cradell ) and in many other holden more then 200. yeares after / are there founde so many canons / for the acknowledging off the autoritie off one Metropolitane in euery Prouince ? For the honor which he shoulde haue / the name he should be called by / for the place where they should sytte at their meatinges / for the boundes of their circuite ? doo not all thes declare / that there were which were ennemies to that autoritie : and that those which were lyfted vp into yt / had continuall warre one with an other / who should be the first / who the greatest / who of largeste spreade ? What meaneth yt also that they changed the seates so often ? so that the second / or third at one Councel / was fourth at an other / and none at the third : and contrariwise he that was none before / was cheif afterward ? What also that the teritoiries appointed by one Councell / were abbridged by an other / enlarged againe by a third ? Ys there any man of so smale conceite / which doth not hereby vnderstande / that this lifting vp of one aboue the reste / was a bone caste of the deuill to cause the ministers fall owt one with an other : wherby place was made to heresies of all sortes / to the vtter vndoing of the church / and quenching off the gospell ? And if the D. had bene off so narrowe vnderstanding / that vppon so often / and so diuers decrees in this behalfe / he could not conceiue the contentions / which this did breed : yet expresse wordes off histories / which testifie generally of the contentions for those preeminences / 1. Sozom. 1. ca. 7. li. 2. ca. of Councells ( as it may appeare by the canons off the Aphrican councel which I haue alledged : of the Tauritan / which sheweth that the Frenshe bishops / stroue which church should haue the Metropolitanship / and how the bishop of Arles / and Vien̄a fell owt for the same ) were redy to haue informed him of the trwth in this behalfe . Yea in the discourse of the Councell of Nice / wheron Socr. 1. li. 8. c. Sozom. 1. li. 17. M. Fox . The boke of the 70 Arch. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Eph. 4. 3. the cheife credit off the Metrapolitane dependeth / he might haue redd how almost all the Bishops assembled there / had quarels one with an other . Which when they were not ( as doth appeare ) for diuersitie off iudgement in religion : yt is easie to vnderstand / that they were for the causes aboue rehersed . And if he could be ignorante of all thes : yet our stories at home / which specifie the combates / and going together by the ●ares for thes causes / offred vnto him a plentifull proofe off all thes thinges . Whherby yt appeareth / that this Metropolitaneship was the very apple off contention / in schambling for which / the church was miserably haled in peaces . Therfore forasmuche as the Apostle sheweth / that the trwth is kepte by the bonde of vnitie / and yt being moste manifeste that thes smokie titles off honor / were cawse off contention : yt followeth that so farr they are from that pretended / off being bulwerckes againste heresies / and schismes : that they were the principall hookes that pulled them in .

The Papistes saie that there maie be a bishop of all the whole Diuis . 31. church / because there may be of a prouince : I / that there can be pag. 380. &c. nether off one / nor other . They would establishe the Pope by the Archbishop : and I ouerthrowe the Archbishop by the Pope . This is great ioining with the Papistes . If I woulde take the aduantage off your owne wordes / firste that a a pa. 368. there is the same reason of one ouer a diocese , and ouer a Prouince , and a gaine that b b Pag. 373. forsomuch as one was ouer 12. therfore one maye be ouer a whole prouince : I need not seeke for further defense / as I haue there declared . But againste this M. Caluin , and M. Nowell be browght : which saie there is not the same reason , off one ouer the whole churche , and ouer a prouince . let yt be so . For the one is a more prowder title / then the other : breaketh in further into the the prerogatiue of Christe / then the other . And if the church muste needes be accombred ether with Pope / or Archbishop : let vs graunte so muche to the archbishop / that to avoide the Popes iron furnaies / wee would be content to grinde in his myll : and to a voide the scourge off the one / passe by the whip off the other : yet heroff foloweth not / but that yt ys true I haue set downe . For althowghe they are not in all pointes a like / nor euery reason which concludeth the one / concludeth the other : yt hindreth not but ther are certeine reasons / which conclude bothe a like .

That this pointe off keping peace in the church / is one off those which requireth as well a Pope ouer all the Archbishops / as an archbishop ouer all the bishops in a realme : I will goe no further then to the causes your selfe haue assigned . For where I shewe that vnitie maie be kepte withoute an Archbishop / yow assigne two causes / for which in keping vnitie yt is meete to haue an Archbishop : the one / to call the bishops together when there is variance : pag. 364. the other / to put them in minde of their dewties . And if an Archbishop be necessarie for calling of a prouinciall councell / when ther is cause off assemblie / and when the bishops are deuided : yt is necessarie there be also a Pope which maie call the generall Councell / when ther is diuision betwene the Archbishops / an other cause of generall Councell . For when the churches of one Prouince be deuided from other / and the archbishops are at variance : as yow aske me / so I aske yow / who shall assemble them together ? who shall admonishe them off their dewties , when they are assembled ? If you can finde a waie how this maie be doone withowt a Pope : the waie is also founde / wherby the church is disbourdened off the Archbishop .

Of the autorities yow alledge / nether affirme that the gouernement of an Arbishop ouer a Prouince / is conuenient : onely they affirme that there is more likelihoode in the one / then in the other / and that there were archbishops in the churche when ther were no Popes . yf one should conclude that becawse a man maie touche the moone with his hand / therfore he maie touche the sonne : and yt be said for answer / that althowghe yt be possible to touche the moone / yet it foloweth not so of the sonne : who is there of so litle iudgement which would gather of this answer / that one maye touche the moone with his hand ? And as this proueth that one may ouerthrowe one impossible thing by an other / withowt teaching ether off them possible : so that I haue alledged 467. pag. perteining to this matter ( off one which against him that would allegde Iacobs two wiues , to proue he might haue as many as he liste , should answer that althowgh he might haue two : yet yt foloweth not that he may haue as many as he liste ) proueth that one may ouerthrow one vnlawfull thing by an other / withowt teaching ether off them lawfull : which the D. calling yt a ieste , answereth not . And yet yt ys manifest that thes he his reasons / both here and there : which may in deede worthely be iested at : albeit there is no worde in the example I browght / that carieth the countenance off a ieste .

Vnto that I browght of greater necessitie off vnitie in the Diuis 32. pag. 381. whole church / then in ane Prouince : there is nothing answered . here he saith I am greatly deceiued , considering that the Pope claimeth his temporalities by Constantine , and his supremacie by Peter . If he listed he might haue vnderstanded / that diuers Papistes which handle that matter off supremacie / alledge Constantines donacion for his temporalities onely . I said not that the Pope maketh his claime onely by Constantine . Althowgh yt may be shewed that Sozimus ( who yow say claimed the supremacie ouer all the Tom. 1. Concil. Aphri . church ) made his claime not by Peter / nor by any autoritie off scripture / but by the Councell off Nice / confirmed by the Emperour Constantine . Where he saith my supposition touching one Caesar ouer all the realmes which haue churches , is but supposed : I meruaile that he is ignorant / that Constantine in the ende off his reigne / had the Empire whole in his handes : and that d d Euseb li. 10. cap. 9. all the churches had rest vnder him : e e Iero. ad Alges . 11. quaest. Concil. Calcedon Act. 1. that the Emperour off Rome is called lorde off all the earth , Lord off all the worlde . So that if he would haue appointed one bishop ouer all prouinces vnder him : the bishop of his appointement should haue had more then double the iurisdiction / that the Pope euer had / when his kingdome was largeste : the Pope him selfe making no further claime / then ouer the churches which bare the name off Christe / as Pighius him selfe confesseth . Wherupon foloweth that his answer often alledged / to put a difference betwene the archbishop and Pope ( the one taketh it to him selfe , the other hath yt of the gifte of the Prince ) is not worthe a strawe .

Where I shew that the sufficientest mynister , finding enowghe to doo in one onely congregacion : no man can be hable Diuis. 33. pag. 381. to welde the gouernement off all the churches in a Prouince : he answereth / that lacke off will , or skill of some busie Pastors , to dispatch controuersies which them selues be autors off , letteth not but that bishops , and archbish. may be sufficient for their charges . I make my argument off all / and he answereth off some : I of the moste fyt / and sufficient pastors / and he off vnfit . If he haue any better answer / wee will attend after yt : if not / then the archbishop is here againe taken by defaulte . And when ether he must needes let his Archbishop fall to the ground / or els denie that men off greatest giftes haue found enowgh to doe in the gouernement of one congregacion : being both vnwilling to graunte the one / and ashamed to denie the other : yt is manifest he crept into this corner . When I shew that as the patrons off the Archb. may alledge the supplie off Archdeacons , Chauncelors , &c. in their absence : so the popes aduocates may pretende his deputacion off Cardinalls , &c. he answereth / that the office off bishop , and Archbishop may be well excuted so farre as yt is conuenient for the estate of the church : which ys that in question .

Where lykewise otherwhere I alledged to this pourpose / Diuis . 15. Pag 466. that his bishop , and Archbishop hauing their charge assigned by him the same with a commen pastor , the gouernement onely excepted : are therby bounde to pastorall preaching , and ministring off sacramentes in all the parishes off their iurisdiction , which is impossible : he staggereth to and fro / saying the bishop hath to procure his diocese , ys muche as in him lieth : wheras he is charged / for laying hand to more then he can gripe : He addeth / according to the lawes of the churche : he is afraied to say off God . that they preach where , and when they see yt moste conuenient : by that rule neuer also / and no where : yf in their sighte yt be conuenient . That yt foloweth not because the archbishop is bound to minister the word , and Sacramentes , therfore he muste doo yt in all the parishes of his prouince : which followeth well . For the bishop appointed by the holy ghoste / is commaunded to feed the whole flocke committed Act. 20. 28. vnto him / euen with the same feading Saincte Paule fedd the Ephesians : that is / with preaching so plentifully / that all might vnderstand the whole will off God . Wheruppon followeth / that his charge is not to feede where / and when he seeth good : but to feed / and that to sufficiencie all the people off his charge : as he that shall answer for the bloude off all which perish / for wante of sufficient instruction by his mouth . And if there be ( as he saith ) the same deutie off the Archbishop towardes his charge / as off the bishop towardes his : the same foloweth in him . for the charge off his Prouince being a lyke committed vnto him : by the same reason he is bounde to preach in one parte / he is bounde in all : if not in all / in none .

Now to returne : where he saith / preaching , ordeining mynisters , and suppressing herysies is not committed vnto the Archdeacon , Chauncelor , &c. but such as by rules off the church are permitted them : firste / yt is his continuall faulte / that he should proue by the lawe off God / he proueth by the lawes of our church / yea and by those which remained off the estate which was in poperie . I mighte much better alledge the lawes off the reformed churches / which haue abolished them . And if he wil againste the reasons browghte / oppose autoritie / and binding me for my proofes within the compas off the worde off God / wander him selfe in the broade feilde off mens lawes in question : yt is time to shuite vp the disputation / which is mainteined by such grosse begginge . Secondly how will he proue / that he may sett ouer his charge vnto an other : or that yt ys more lawfull / to committ other thinges perteining vnto his office / then those which he reserueth vnto him selfe ? Or if he may commit yt / whether he may commit yt to th archdeacon / so farre vnder degree of the mynisterie off the Archbishop / to whome those thinges belong : or to Chauncelors / &c. which haue no entrance into the ministerie by any ecclesiasticall institution . all which are shewed vnlawful / in the booke of discipline lately set forth . And why may not the Pope communicate his charge with his Cardinales / as well as the archbishop with his Suffraganes / & c ? If he can shew no word why he may doo it / but it be onely vpon constitution off the church / that he casteth the ouerplus off his bourden / vpon the neck of his Chancelour / &c : by the same reason the vniuersall bishop / may discharge him self vpon his deputies .

Where he saith / the vniuersall bishop can not ordeine ministers , preach , and suppresse heresies so well thorowgh all the church , as an archbishop in a Prouince : I haue shewed that albeit one be graunted more impossible then the other / yet this also is impossible : which is sufficient to proue that in hand . And that is here confessed / when he is constreyned to lay one part off his dutie vpon his Suffraganes shoulders / an other vpon his archdeacons / &c. All which if he be able to beare him self : why doth he driue them vnto others ? Let the church at least be discharged off thes bourdens . If not : why hath he taken it vpon him ? Yf the Pope deserue condemnacion / for taking more vpon him then he is able to doo : the Archbishop / and bishops which beare him companie in this point / can not be separated from it . So this reason browght against the Pope / standeth fast against them . Moreouer as the Pope can not dispatch his matters in the whole churche / so well as an Archbis . in a prouince : so can nether an Archbis . in his Prouince / so well as a bishop in his dioces / nor he in his dioces / so wel as in a particular congregacion / doo the duties of a bishop . So that this answer no more shutteth owt the Pope / then the archbishop / or lordly bishop . But he saith / the archbishop may haue conference with his archdeacons , and Chauncelours , which the Pope can not . He seemeth to haue forgotten the conference by letters / and intelligence which the Pope hath had from tyme to time / so particular / and precise off churches furtheste off him / as if he had bene in the bosome In his booke off the practise off Praelates . off them : which pointe Maister Tindall hathe well set forthe . And would to God there were the tenth part off the fruicte off the archbishops conference vnto the good off our churche / which hathe bene off the Popes to the ouerthrow therof . And if conference by mouthe be necessary : Rome is not so far but as it hathe bene / so it maie be had . For besydes that stories aforde vs diuers examples / off churches which haue sowght the appeasing off their controuersies / from places further remoued then Canterbury is from Rome : the marchandrise off vnitie / owght to be so precious / that we shoulde not doubte to saile for yt vnto the Indes / and Garamantes . so that if there be suche a mysterie in the nomber of one / to kepe vnitie : the distance of place owght not to hinder this monarchie off the whole churche : yf for no other cause / yet for this / that when the archbishops ( of whom hangeth forsoothe the churches pea●● ) are fallen owt : there maie be some to accord them . That as the mynisters haue lorde bishops / and they th archbishops : so the archbishops might haue a Pope / in reuerence off whose autoritie / they might easelyer be conioined . And in deede by so much more yt is necessary in this respect / there should be a Pope ouer the archbishop / then ether archbis . ouer bishops / or bishops ouer ministers : as the rente / and diuision in them being cheif / is more hurtfull then when it falleth amongeste those in lower places . For when schismes and heresies light amongeste them / they spred so muche further / as they with the arme / and power off their autoritie / are hable to flinge them further then the other . The differences betwene the Pope and the archbishop , serue but for stuffing . for I excepted in my replie / the corruptions off doctrine : and yow owght to haue vnderstanded / that superiority of one bishop ouer all in the catholike churche / chosen by consente / doothe not necessarily drawe thes accidentes of contempte of Princes , of making their decrees equall with the lawes of god , &c. Yow should therfore haue made yowr comparison / betwene an vniuersall Bishop chosen / and not breaking in violently / meinteining the truthe / and not fighting againste yt / &c.

Vnto that I alledged / that thinges passing by voice in Diuis. 34. pag. 382. the churche of Alexandria , the distinction off bishop from the reste off the elders in the church there , might come in withowte Saint Marckes consente , he saithe nothing . And in deede if he had obteined that which he woulde so faine / that this alteration was made in S. Marckes time : yet he shall neuer obteine this / that S. Marke had his hande in that chaunge : onles he will saie / the Apostells / and Apostolicall men were autors off all thinges doone in their time / in euery singular congregacion . Vnto that I saide / the wordes ( from Saint Marcke ) maie be taken rather exclusiuely , to shut owte S. Marke : he answereth / that none off iudgement will graunte that : where notwithstanding he that hath anie iudgement doth easely vnderstande / that the wordes haue manie times that significacion ; and that they are so here : I am content it be tried by the other reasons propounded . I alledged that S. Marck can not be autor off that distinction , because he making those thinges diuers , which the holy Gost made one , should make the storie he wrote suspected . He answereth / yt ys certeine thes were no otherwise distinguished , then the holy gost appointed them : which I haue shewed how shameles yt ys . Then / that my collection is vngodly , to imagine so off the gospell written by the Euangeliste . As yff I did not in plaine wordes / deteste all suspicion of the vntrwthe off that Gospell : and therfore caste awaie his false surmise / which might gyue occasion theroff . He saith / therby appeareth at the least that yt was auncient . I denie not : but yt is manifeste also / that ther were other corruptions in some places of the churche / as aunciente .

The Answ. ( as his coustome is ) taketh his pleasure off me / Diuis . 35. Pag. 383. because vpon the wordes off Ierome ( this coustome was at Alexandria ) I gather that yt was not in other places . As if yt were not manifeste that Ierome noteth where yt began : and if it had beginning at Alexandria / yt was there when yt was not in other churches . If it had had further passage at that time ; Ierome should haue doone yt iniurie in concealing yt . For it would haue made much for the credite off that distinction . Which I alledging in the next diuis . the Ans. saith nothing vnto . Nether is there anie so rude an idiote / which knowethe not that a notable / or vnwonted thinge saide off one man / place / or time / is spoken emphatically / and excludeth all other . But as the D. will not vnderstande a generall proposition / vnles yt haue the signe ( all , or euerie ) before yt : so he will not vnderstande that any thinge is appropriat vnto another / vnles yt haue thes wordes onely , alone , &c. And it is cleare how intollerable the D. is in his insultations / seing Ierome in saying that this coustome gat grounde by litle , Ierom. vpon Tite . and lytle , declareth the trwth of my collection . And where he answereth to that I obiected off the confounding oftentimes off prieste / and bishop / that the bishop is a prieste , but not contrariwise : he first answereth not to the argument . For this is not to be confounded / when off two thinges one is verified of the other / but thother can not returne / and be verified of his fellow . Secondly / his answer is ouerthrowne by his exposition of the place of Cyprian / which by one priest in the churche , vnderstandeth one onely bishop in a church . for therby it foloweth / that ether there was but onely one priest in the church of Carthage : or els thes wordes bishop and prieste , were all one : so that whosoeuer was one / was the other . The nexte diuision hath not a worde to purpose . for autorities are quoted / to proue that the Apostels apointed Bishops in diuers churches / which no man denieth : yea I haue namely alledged yt before

Where I shew that forsomuche as the Archdeacon is reproued Diuis. 37. pag. 384. of Ierome / for preferring him sefe before an elder / because the scripture maketh him inferior vnto the elder : by the same reason / a bishop is to be reproued / for that he preferreth himself before an elder / which the scripture maketh his equall : he answereth / he seeth no sequell , nor likelihoode . notwithstanding I truste there is none that hathe but his commen sense / which dooth not easely vnderstande / that yt is no more lawfull for those which are ordeined equalls by the scripture / to lifte them selues one aboue an other : then yt is lawfull for him that is apointed to be vnder / to exalte him selfe aboue his superior . for althowghe he be in greater faulte / which being vnder exalteth him selfe aboue / then he which magnifieth him selfe aboue his equall : yet as the ordinance off God cawseth . the one to be vnlawfull / so yt doothe the other . The seconde answer is / there maie be degrees amongeste the ministers , notwithstanding all this , for that Ierome saithe there was a degree . This is a verie blunt answer . I alledge bothe autoritie off the scripture / and Ieromes owne reason againste the distinction off one bishop from the reste : and he answereth that the distinction is good / for Ierome so saith . Thirdly / althowgh Ierome confesse that a bishop and an elder be all one by the scripture : yet he confesseth superioritie off a bishop before an other elder . but he saith they are all one by the scripture : and that the bishop is superior by coustome . And here he stitchethe in a parenthesis . For after he had alledged Ierome / confessing that a bishop and an elder are all one by scripture : he addeth ( as they be in deede towching the ministerie ) . Therby desirous ( as yt seemeth ) to abuse his symple reader / in making him belieue that Ierome mente / that there was by the scripture difference in policie / betweene a bishop / and an other mynister : which ouerthroweth the whole intente of Ierome . For he sheweth that this difference ( which the D. in other places termeth / for order , and Policie ) betwene a bishop and an other minister / was not by the scripture / but by coustome : and beganne at Alexandria . And seing Ierome putteth a difference / betwene the bishop specified in S. Paul / and the bishop in his time : yf the Answ. say that S. Paules bishop differed from an other minister / as towching order / and policie : I would gladly knowe of him / how Ieromes bishop and he which is now / differeth from an other minister . Yf he answer ( as he hath doone before ) that they differ not as towching the ministery , but as towching order and policie : them he putteth no difference betwene S. Paules bishop and Ieromes / which is ouerthrow of all that Ierome saith / and he hath flatly affirmed : where he maketh Ieromes pag. 304. bishop instituted by the churche / after the Apostels times .

After he blusheth not to saie / that Ierome makethe a difference betwene S. Paules bishop / and another minister . For althowghe he broilethe / and mingleth all vpon a heape / thincking throwgh confusion off all / to cawse his treachery not to be seen : yet a a in di . 39. pag. 987. after he doth plainly vtter yt / in answering Chrysostomes wordes / the same with Ieromes . But before I come to his reasons wherby he would proue this : I will set downe the wordes off Ierome / wherby his vnhoneste dealing maie be better perceiued . b b Iero. ad Euagr. First he saith / a ministre that is to say a bishop : and a litle after / the Apostle dothe plainly teache ; that a bishop and a minister are all one . And in an c c Vpon Tite . other place / a Bishop and a minister are the same : againe / d d Ad Oceanum . althowghe with the auncient fathers , bishops and elders were all one . Here appeareth manifestly / that Ierome saith / a bishop and an other minister be all one with the Apostell / and with the auncient times : that he expoundethe one by the other / that he turneth one off them vpon an other . for as he saith that bishops be ministers : so he affirmeth that mynisters be bishops .

Nowe of the twoo reasons / to proue that Ierome put a difference betweene a bishop / and an elder / this is the firste : the one is a name of age , and the other of dignitie . which is asmuch to saie / as they differ in deede / because they differ in name : and that the auncientes / and elders off the people off Israell / were not their gouernours / because the name aff auncientes is a name off age / and the other of honor : or as if the eldest brother were not the heir / because the one is a name of age / the other of honor . Wheras Ieromes purpose is plainly to shew / that althowgh the names be diuers : yet the thinges are all one . And yf there be anie dignitie shut vp in this name bishop / the ministers are partakers of it : considering that he affirmeth that they be bishops . And if there be any inferioritie noted / by the name off elder : the bishop hathe his parte in yt / for so muche as he is an elder . Althowghe the trwthe is / that by the worde ( dignitie ) Ierome mente nothing but an office : and called the name off bishop / the name off a dignitie / becawse 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . the office drawethe dignitie with yt . And because of reuerence which the yonger giue to th elder / as also for that ministers and bishops / were often taken from them whiche were well growne in age : they were called elders . So that althowgh the name ( elder ) be the name off age : yet yt draweth as muche honor after yt / as the name off bishop .

His other reason is : Ierome saithe an elder is conteined in a bishop : which he bringeth as a proofe to shew / that Deacons are therfore vnder elders / because elders and bishops be all one with S. Paul. So that he hath not onely depraued Ieromes minde : but drawne his wordes to a cleane contrarie sense / of that he ment . for euen / by the same wordes wherby Ierome woulde proue they be all one he would proue them diuers . And althowghe Ieromes maner of speache here be somewhat harde for that purpose / considering that thinges which are all one / can not properly be saide to conteine one another : yet bothe by his plaine wordes in other places / and manifest suite off his disputation / he made his meaning so well knowne / that no man ( onles willing ) coulde stumble at his phrase . And if the D. will thus hunt at syllables : yet this speache off Ieromes is so farre from helpinge him / that yt dooth vtterly ouerthrow all his houlde he snatcheth at . For where he vpon thes wordes in a bishop is conteined an elder , would conclude In Episc. Presbyter continetur . that euery bishop is a minister , but not euery minister a bishop : all men see that in taking Ierome by the lips withowte considering his meaning / the contrary off that the D. gathereth / doth folowe : that euery minister is a bishop / but not euery bishop a minister . For that which is conteined vnder an other / is more particuler / and les then that which dothe conteine : as because the kinge is conteined in the magistrate / therfore euerie Kinge is a magistrate / but not euerye magistrate a Kinge .

And albeit yt be no meruaile / althowghe he which striueth with the trwth / shoulde be stricken with suche a guiddines off spirite / that he shoulde not be hable to discerne / not onely betwene the morning / and noone daies / but not between noone daies and midnight : yet because the smattering in logick which this booke maketh shew of / might be so much as not to be so grossely abvsed : in casting with my selfe wherfore he shoulde alledge this / in the ende yt came to my minde / that by thes wordes ( the elder is conteined in the bishop ) he woulde haue vnderstanded / that the elder is conteined vnder the bishops gouernement . If he meane so / there is as great ouersight in his grammer / as before in logicke : ogicke : considering that the toung ( as I suppose will bare no such sense / certeine ys that the autor will not suffer yt . For he assigneth as reason why th apostle did not speake of the elder / for that an elder is conteined in the bishop : and therfore speaking of th one / he needed not to speake of thother . Wheras if he should meane / that he would not speake of an elder / because he was in the gouernement off the bishop / to order as he thowght good yt had bene a witles saying / vnworthy of Ierome ( considering that th apostle speaketh of a deacon which is vnder a bishop ) . Which shall be answer to his like dealing with Chrysostome . That Ierome speaketh of an archdeacon in that place / I haue before declared .

But the D. asketh / why I went about to deface Ierome , if he Diuis 38. pag. 385. nether make for our ether bishop , or archbishop ? for that there coulde be no other cause but this . I haue shewed that I saued him his due / and conuenient honor : the cause why I gaue the reader warning / to trie him by the rule off the worde off God / was because he seemeth in some places to alowe that distinction off bishop from an elder / which is diuers from the institution off the Apostell . After he setteth downe his places oftén before repeted / and asketh whether I thincke those mente of euerie pastor in his parishe . I haue shewed how althowghe vpon occasions before recited / there were not in euery congregacion at that time a bishop : yet there were in diuers . he saith further / that the pastor in euery congregation from the beginning , had his autoritie ouer his flocke withowte anie suche constitution . I graunte he had his antoritie / but not so soueraigne / as after he obteined by this euill custome : considering that he had an equall parte of gouernement / with those ioined with him in the administracion off the churche . And this althowghe yt be debated betwene vs : yet the D. frameth his answer as thowghe there were no suche thinge . For albeit for the moste parte there were no moe pastors then one in a parishe : yet there were moe elders . And albeit Ier. speake of those elders which had the ministerie of the word : yet ●●at excludeth not those / which were onely for gouernement .

Where he saith moreouer / the care of the whole flock was committed vnto him I see not how he can conclude therof / that the bishop was ouer a whole diocese suche as ours . yt might rather be concluded / that he had charge off one onely congregation : considering that althowghe him selfe alone were thowght hable to care for one congregacion : yet there is none which would thinck him self alone / able to care for a whole dioces . And beside that the churches should be in miserable case / if none should care for them but euery bishop in his dioces : let the D. stretch owt the bishops iurisdiction as far as he can / yet I haue shewed owt off the Emperours letters to the bishop of Alexandria / that the elders off the same church where he abode / had aioynt care with him ouer all . Which is also confirmed by the testimonie the Ans. hath alledged owt off M. Fox : where not the bishop onely / but his church pag. 331. also / is saied to haue the ouersight off the precinctes which perteined vnto him . And Ierome him self / shewing that the elders vpon Tit. 1. cap. owght to gouerne in commen with the bishop , can not be thowght to giue vnto the bishop the whole care of the church / as peculiar vnto him alone : onles a man will make him contrary to him self . For if they haue the gouernement in commen with him : they haue the care in commen / for somuch as there can be no gouernement withowt care . So that where Ierome saith / the care off the whole churche was committed vnto one : yt must be vnderstanded so / as yt may be leuell with his other saying : especially when he saith / that a bishop differed from his elder , onely in ordinacion .

Which may appeare by the practise off the churches / about the time wherin Ierome wrote . a a Concil. Carth. 4. ca. 23. For it was ordeined that the bishop should not iudge off any matter , but in presence off his clergie : if otherwise , his sentence should be voide . Wherby appeareth / that an other b b 3. Conc. earth . c. 8 canon permitting the iudgement off subdeacons , and other inferior orders vnto the bishop alone , must be vnderstanded / alone withowt other bishops / not withowt other assistance . Which is also cleare / considering that the Councell opposeth the decision off their cawses / vnto that off elders and deacons : which was to be doon by six and three bishops / beside the bishop off whom they were accused . This gouernement in commen appeareth also / in that c c Concil. carth. 3. ca. 25. when one off the clerckes would goe ether to the widowes , or virgines , he must haue as well the leaue off the elder , as off the bishop . Likewise / that it d d Concil. carth. 4. ca. 37. was ordeined / that the deacon should acknowledge him self , as well the minister vnto the elder , as to the bishop . Here it is also to be obserued / what that ordinacion was / wherin onely / the bishop differed from the elder : how poore a thing . For beside that it can not be vnderstanded off the election / which was commen to him with the people / and the eldership : yt was e e Concil. earth . 4. ca. 2. 3. decreed that when there was a bishop to be ordeined , two bishops should hould the booke ouer his heade , one other bishop should pronounce the blessing , and the rest of the bishops with th elders present , should all lay on their handes . So that ether there was an other order at Rome / than is here appointed ; or els the bishops preeminence was onely to pronounce the blessing / and hould the booke / the elder hauing as good right to lay on his handes / as he . Where he saith / his place against the Luciferanes , with an other owt off his epistle , is more cleare : he bringeth no reason at all / nether are there any wordes to enforce that . Onles by church one vnderstand dioces , or Prouince such as ours / which I haue shewed to be far from the vse of those times : or onles we graunt that there can be no schismes / nor heresies in a particular congregacion / wherof there is to good experience : or that yt is impossible there should be many elders in one church / which I haue declared / and shall ( God willing ) declare further to be vntrue : I saie onles thes proue an archbishop / or a lorde bishop : there is nothing in those wordes off Ierome . And yet the D. that he may helpe his weake reasons with stronge wordes / muste vppon thes conclude yt impossible , to expounde Ieromes wordes otherwise , then off bishop , or archbishop such as ours .

Where he concludeth vpon that the elders chose one amongeste them whom they made bishop , as the captaine is chosen of the the soldiars , that therfore the bishop was ouer diuers congregations : there is no likelyhood off reason . And where to giue yt some / he threapeth twoo thinges at my hande / the one that this worde elder , signifieth onely a minister off the worde , thother that euery minister of the worde had his seuerall flocke : he doothe but dalie . For he knoweth well that I hould that the worde elder / reacheth to such as gouerne onely : and that there were in diuers congregations more then one / which preached the word of God . Where he saith / those which I call obscure villages , were litle cyties , suche as with vs , Ely , or Peterborowgh : I leue it to the reader to iudge / how muche I haue therin squared from Erasmus Frigida oppidula / who calleth them peeuish litle Townes . Where he saith / he callethe them base cities : I am contente the reader take which he liketh beste . For bothe in proper speache can not be trew : for to cal a towne / and a litle towne / and a peuishe lytle towne / a citie : is not for any thinge I know / wonted . Howbeit I will not here striue : yt is sufficient that I haue shewed / that there were bishops in other places which were no cities . And euen in this the D. letteth fall the Popes decree / which he defendeth in an other place : which forbiddeth as well to place bishops in base / and small cities , as in vplandishe townes .

And albeit the D. be not hable by thes wordes of Ierome / nor by any other which he hathe browght / to proue that the bishop had any further reache / then vnto one onely churche : yet ( forsomuche as yt is not here question off the victorie / but off trwth : nor what the Ans. is hable to proue / but what maye be proued ) I will not denie but in Ieromes times / the bishops vpon occasions before off me alledged / had enlarged their boundes in suche sorte / that there were certen congregacions which belonged to their ouersight / and wherof they were called bishops . But I appele first to the institution off God / and vse of the purer times after the Apostles : and then I answer / that a dioces was not the twentith part of that which they haue now . As appeareth by that alledged before owt of the Councels / and by that Ierome saith / that their elders vnder them gouerned in commen with them : which they coulde not haue doon onles they being hard by / had made one bodie with them . For nether could the bishop doo any thing in his congregation / withowt the elders : nor they in theirs / withowt him / but they made one Senate amongest them . The practise wherof is yet to be seen in certein reformed churches ▪ where the elders off certein small parishes round abowt / make one bodie off Senate with the elders off the principall towne / meeting together once at the least euery week . Sauing that they haue altogether abolished that euill coustome / which wrong the name of bishop from all the rest vnto one / and graunted the ordinacion to him alone : there being one amongest them which hath onely this aboue the rest / when they assemble together to propound matters / gather the voices / giuethe exhortations / and that also for a time / and not during his ministerie . I haue shewed that the argument / wherwith the Ans. would off a bishop conclude an archbishop / and off one ouer a dioces one ouer a whole Prouince is too bad : and it is not here to be repeted . This place requireth to shew / that albeit the Metropolitan was now receiued in the East partes : yet ether he was not in the most partes off the weast / where Ierom was : or Ierome did not acknowledge him . Wherin I will first propound my argumentes / and after answer to his obiections .

And firste euen with the selfe same places he would proue th archbishop / is he ouerturned : as of that againste the Lucifer . For if it be certein ( which I haue shewed ) that Ierome speaketh off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his precincte / and plaine by Ieromes wordes / that the autoritie he speaketh off there / is suche as not onely hath no superior / but no mate : yt muste folow / that aboue the bishop which Ierome propoundeth / there can be no archbishop . Againe where he affirmeth that the bishop , ad Euag. elder and deacon vnder the gospell are in the same place , that Aron his sonnes , and the Leuites were vnder the law : yt maie be concluded that forasmuch as euerie bishop in his charge / hathe the same autoritie Aaron had / and yt is certeine that there was no ecclesiasticall autoritie ouer Aaron : therfore by Ierome there owght to be none aboue the bishop in euery churche . Moreouer ibid. vpon that he saith / that all bishops succede vnto the Apostels / yt maie be reasoned / forsomuch as the bishops haue the places off the Apostels in their seuerall churches / and it certeine that the Apostels had no dominion one ouer an other / but equall autoritie ▪ as bothe hath bene / and shall be ( God willing further shewed ) : that bishops owght not to haue anie bishop to whom they owght to be subiecte . Ierom ad Rusticum monachum .

Beside this / speaking off the orders in the churche in his times / he reckenethe vp deacons , archdeacons , elders , archelders , and bishops . If there had bene any Archbishops where hem was / or he had alowed of anie : there coulde neuer haue bene so fit a place to haue spoken off him / considering that his purpose was / to shew those degrees which were . Seing therefore he maketh no mention off him : yt is apparant that there was none / or that he alowed off none . Moreouer he putteth this difference betwene Tom. 2. ad Marcell . aduersus Montanistas . the Montanistes / and the Catholikes : that Catholikes had their bishops as the successors off th apostels , gyuing vnto them the firste place : but the montaniste heretikes had in the firste and cheifest place Patriarches , in the seconde certeine which they called Cenones , so that the Bishop with them / occupied but the thirde . Now if the bishop was the higheste degree in the catholike churche / and if to haue a Patriarche ( which the D. saith is all one with a Metropolitane , and Archbishop ) ouer the bishop / was in Ieromes iudgement worthie off this reproche : I leaue yt to the readers iudgement / what was Ieromes opinion off the office off an Archbishop : and whether the same blot which he marked in the rowte off Montanistes / be not in our churche / where there is aboue the bishop bothe a Patriarche off Englande / and a Patriarche off all Englande . But because the D. will not suffer him selfe to be bounde with any cordes but off autoritie : I will annexe his autoritie / off whom he would seeme to haue borowed the greatest pillor off the Archbishop . Musculus therfore after he had alledged the sentence off Ierome to Euagr. off equalitie off the Bishop off Rome / and Eugubium / &c. concludeth thus : Ierome Muscul . de potestate ministror . when he wrote that , did not thincke off the power off the patriarches , metropolitanes , and primacie off the bishop off Rome : but esteemed that vnto euery bishop , did belonge the same care , and power in his ovne church .

Nowe to the Ans. shiftes . The first is owte off Ierome to Rusticus / that euery ecclesiasticall order is subiecte vnto her gouernours : wheroff I would gladly knowe what he concludeth . If an Archbishop : there is no apparance . And the Ans. being so bountifull in translating / hathe here cut off the sentence in the m●ddle : for what pourpose / let other iudge . my answer is therfore / that he must proue by Ierome that there was an archbishop / or that Ierome alowed off one : before the sentence off Ierome can profite the Archbishop . His seconde is / that the testimonie off Ierome touching the equalitie off the bishops , dooth not hurte the autoritie off the Archbishop : considering that it is not denied but that euery bishop , and minister are equall as towching the ministerie , but not in order , and policie . which distinction althowghe I haue confuted / and shewed In 8. Tra. c. 1. di . 21. also immediatly before / that it is cleane againste the minde off Ierome : yet here yt is to be obserued / that as his argument owte off the place againste the Luciferanes for the Archbishop / ys borowed of the Papistes : so this shifte is Hardinges / wherby he would auoide the force off the bishops answer . Harding saith that towching honor , dignitie , and power off bishoply order and office , and off pristhood , as good , and as greate a bishop in Apol. 2 : parte . ca. 3. diuis. 5. that respecte is the one , as the other : and the bishops off thes litle townes , haue as greate a merite in regarde off any their vertues , and as great power concerning the order off priesthood as the bishop off Rome , &c. Yet towching power and autoritie off regiment , the Patriarches off Constantinople , &c. be aboue the bishops off other dioceses . The bishop to this shifte answereth with Erasmus / who saith that Ierome seemeth to matche all bishops together , as if they were all equally the Apostells In his scholia vpon that epistle . successors . And further alledgeth an other place of Erasmus : where owte off that place off Ierome he affirmeth plainlie / that the bishop off Rome is aboue other bishops , onely by riches . If by riches onely : then not by gouernement / as Harding and the Ans. affirme . And where Harding vnder this word merite / woulde hide him self as doth the Ans. the bishop answereth / by merite is mente withowt all question preeminence : which he D. alledgeth / is vsed off Harding againste the bishop : so yt ys Latomus ( an other Papistes ) shifte againste Bucer . vnto whom Bucer answereth : the Bishops were in euerie respecte at the firste , equall one with an other : as is before alledged .

And where otherwhere he pretendeth alowance of this Popishe Diuis. 42. pag 390. distinction / by the godlie writers : the trwth is nothing so . For as touching Caluin / he hath openly depraued him . He onely sheweth vpon 2. Cor. 10. vers. 8. that there are diuers degrees off ministers / and that one is aboue an other / as an Apostel aboue a pastor / which is confessed : but that one pastor is aboue an other / which is the question / he hath not a worde . That owt of Heza / is onely a recital what was done / not what he alowed : considering that ( as hath bene shewed ) he vtterly condemneth those offices off Lorde bishop / Archbish / &c. beside that in shewing that they came in proces off time after the Apostles : he hangeth the D. cawse on the hedge which woulde haue this distinction in the time of the Apostles . Nether hath Hemingius this distinction / where the D. supposeth / he onely saith that they are equall as towching pag. 420. spiritual regiment . What they be in external / he referreth to another place : which when the D. bringeth / he shall haue answer . And whensoeuer yt cometh I thincke yt will ouerthrowe his before : that there are some ministeries of the word and Sacramentes onely , some for gouernement also . for althowgh he allowe a gouernement vnto him he calleth bishop / larger then to an other minister : yet ( I thincke ) he can not shew that he shutteth owt thother owte off the externall gouernement . Ad also / that I haue shewed / that euen when thes smokey offices came first in / nether the Doctor / nor pastor were seuered from gouernement off their seuerall congregation . For that wherin the metropolitane then exceded the pastor / was a preheminence or honour withowt autoritie : so that euen then / yt was an euill distinction / off certein ministers off the word and sacramentes onely , and certeine which did gouerne .

His third answer is owt off the B. off Salisbury : which affirmeth that there were archbishops in Ieromes time . But it is to obserued / that that assertion off the bishop / proceded off mistaking Ierome / and some ouersight . Which is cleare by that in 4. Artic 15. diuis an other place / the bishop auowcheth owt off Ierome ●o Nepotian / archbishops : where there is no mention off Archbishop in any sort . And althowghe the place which the bishop vouchethe / be in the Epistle vnto Rusticus : yet there is no mention off an Archbishop / as I haue before declared . This assertion therfore can not helpe the D. which hathe no better grounde . His laste proofe is Erasmus / who saith that metropolitans haue some vpon Ier. to Euag. dignitie aboue other bishops : an other of Hardinges bucklers againste the bishop in the same place . Where yt is manifest / that Erasmus kepte his oulde coustome / off carying fire in the one hande / and water to quenche yt in the other : and tempered the truthe with some leuaine off the corruption off those times / therby to procure saftie vnto him / and to his bookes : whilest those which coulde not abide to looke vpon the truthe barefaced / might at the leaste beare yt being muffled Yf the Ans. will make his owtecries / that I discredite the autor when I can not answer them : beside that I discredite not moe then he / I referre me vnto the conscience off all men / whether yt be true which I haue saide . And yet doo I not saie the tenthe parte / off that which I coulde alledge written off him / by men off excellent learning / and zeale .

But let yt be considered / how bothe corruptly contrary to the minde off Ierome / and vnconstantly contrarie to that him selfe hath written off this place / he hath blinded thes together . For if it be trw that he hath said / that Ieromes meaning is / that the bishop off Rome differeth from other bishops onelie in riches : then it is manifeste that in autoritie / he differeth not from the bishop off Eugubium / a small towne in the same prouince . And where he saith / that Ierome in making the bishop off a base citie equall with the reste , referreth that to the deacons which in some places were preferred before the elders : who seeth not but that speaking against the truthe / he was so amazed / that wordes comminge from him / reason stickethe yet in his penne . For what reason is there / that Ierome shoulde therfore saie the bishop off Eugubium was equall vnto the Bishop off Rome , notwithstanding the bishop off Rome were his superior , because the deacon was preferred in Rome before the elder ? What giue is here to ioyne thes together ? or what cawse was there that Ierome shoulde speake basely off the metropolitanes autoritie ouer the bishop / because the deacon was preferred before the elder ? ys there anie reason that because the deacon did iniurie vnto the elder : therfore Ierome shoulde speake sparingly of the metropolitane / ●nd doo him iniurie also ? moreouer if this was the occasion why he spake so off a bishop / because certeine deacons were preferred before the elders : considering that that coustome was onely at Rome ( as Ierome him self declareth ) why should he make the bishop off Tanais / a small towne in Egypte / equall with the bishop off Alexandria / the metropolitane citie there ? and the bishop Rhegium / equall with the bishop off Constantinople ? For seing that mischeif off the preferment off Deacons before the elders / was not in other places then in Rome there was no cause why he should speake thus off them / if that had bene the cause which Erasmus alledgeth ?

Where he addeth / when Ierome saith the bishops and elders were equall , that is to be vnderstanded , that the elder was equall with the bishop in that they were bothe preferred vnto the deacon : I meruaile the Ans. is not ashamed to alledge that saying / without all colour off truthe . For I haue alledged diuers other places owte off Ierome where he speaking absolutely / withoute respecte off any deacon / affirmeth the bishop and elder all one in the beginning . And what a ridiculous disputacion doth he make Ierome to hould ? For it is all one / as if a man after longe discourse to proue Londē and Yorke equall : in the ende shoulde conclude / that Yorke were equall with London / because they be bothe greater then Nuington . Now let the reader iudge / what vnworthie outcries the D. vseth / bothe before and after / pag. 390. off guilful dealing , and shifting the place of Ierome , therby to drowne the voice of the trwthe : and whether I haue interpreted it according to his naturall meaning / and as other godlie / and learned haue doone : and whether he contrarily / to mainteine his firste saying / hath vsed shiftes partely popishe / ouerthrowinge the answers off those which haue trauailed againste popery / aswell as mine : partely fonde / and childishe / which he woulde beare owt with pag. 390. Diuis. 39. &c. p. 387. &c In tract . 3. ● 4. Erasmus autoritie / withowt any weight off reason . Likewise how he after dallieth in his longe translation / and repetition of Ierome / to no purpose . That a doctor differeth from a pastor / hathe bene shewed , that he is inferior vnto him appeareth / not onely because the Apostle placeth him after / where he dothe moste exactly set downe the order off preaching ministers : but also that Ephes. 4. 11. the giftes required for that office / are ( as hathe bene shewed ) lesse . wherunto may be added the practise off the elder churches / which estemed the doctor alwaies vnder him whom they called bishop or Pastor . That the elder which gouerneth onely is inferior to the Doctor : appeareth bothe in that his giftes be fewer / and that a a Timot ▪ 5. 17. the Apostel giueth more honour to him / then to the elder . That Deacons are vnder those elders : for that their charge is to b b Act. 6. 2. serue the tables onely / and therfore but a part off the churche / where the elders gouernement is ouer the whole . Likewise for that the deacons charge / being in thinges perteining to the nourishement off the body : muste gyue place to that off the elders / whose c c Heb. 13. 17. watche is ouer the sowles . Al which ( the ministery off the Doctor onely excepted / which is shut vp commonly in the bishop ) is confirmed by continuall practise off the churche : which vppon all occasions off speaking off this ministerie / placeth the bishop before the elder / and the elder before the deacon . and precisely the foresaid d d ad Philadelph . Ignarius / sheweth that the deacon is vnder the elder / th elder vnder the bishop : where that th elder which onely gouerneth and not onely he which teacheth is vnderstanded ( at which hole the D. would creepe out ) shall be after in proper place declared . So appeareth that order in the ministery / and diuersitie off degrees are defined off by the word of God : and that euen in the Ecclesiasticall ministery / ther is inequalitie althowgh all pastors be equall amongeste them selues : and withall that order standeth withowt the archbishop / or any other deuised ministery .

Chrysost. browght by me / is shamfully corrupted / and the corruption opened in the former diuis . his allegations ( there owght to be rulers in the church , and order to punishe faultes ) so erksomly repeted / are Idle : yt being confessed / and withall shewed / that there is none off those but are doone withowt his ether bishop / or Archbishop . where hauing no reason he falleth to exhortacion / that I would not stand in my conceite , but thincke the gouernement off his bishop better then that laid forth by vs : if he can compound with the word of God / with the reformed churches Apostolical / and present / with the purest writers ould and newe : I with my conceites ( as he speeaketh ) will be ready to hould th archbishops stirup . That he affirmeth the forme off gouernement wherin one is aboue all , necessary in our commen wealthe : althowgh I haue shewed that I greatly allow of it / yet that yt is necessary / and that the Prince / and Parlement can Diuis . 5. Pag. 181. not vpon occasion alter yt / especially without breache off the lawe off God / which onely maketh the necessitie we speake of / ys an vntrwth / apparant to all that haue euer tasted off holy / or humane letters . And althowghe yt semeth he hath couenanted with him self / to speake all he supposeth may please : yet his knowledge answering not his w●ll / he is found here to abridge the authoritie off the ciuile powre / which he thowght to haue stretched owt / and to binde it to that which the lord lefte at the libertie theroff .

Where he saithe / the externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrat , muste be according to the kinde and forme of gouernement vsed in the comon wealth : it partly hath / and further ( God willing ) shall appeare / that the gouernement of the church debated is certein by the word off God / and vnchangeable . As for his bolt so soone shot / and with so smal drafte of reason : yt is broken with the winde off his owne mouth . For where he maketh the externall gouernement throwghe owte his whole booke / at the pleasure of the Prince / which is his principall hould : here he teacheth that yt is not in the princes powre onles she will ether put of / or deuide her crowne with others / to put downe the archbishop . for the externall gouernement off the church ( saith he ) muste be according to the kinde , and forme off gouernement off the comon wealth . Wherby also foloweth / that where the popular estate / or the rule of the beste beareth swaie ; they can not althowghe they would / haue an archbishop . yea herupon foloweth / that ether the Canterbury / or Yorke archbishop muste leese his head . For yt is concluded off his highe diuinitie / that as there is but one prince in the whole Realme : so there muste be but one Archbishop . His reason ( the Prince can not els be supreme gouernour off all estates , and causes ecclesiasticall : ) to say no more / is senseles / and hath no knot with that wherunto yt belongeth . As if when Roome had both Emperours / and consules / the Emperour could not be cheife gouernour off the consuls / because the Consuls were equall amongest themselues . I confessed yt vnconuenient , that there should be one Caesar ouer the worlde / but that yt may be : he alledgeth Caluin that yt is moste absurd : to what pourpose ? what contrarietie is here ? yt is enowghe for me that there may be / and that lawfully / a Prince of larger extent of dominion / then the archbishop of his archbishopricke / althowghe the prince would graunte yt him : which vtterly ouerthroweth his cause / and this being alledged off me afterward / is clean passed by . For his defense consisteth in this / that the Popes Diuis. 14. pag. 465. widenes off iurisdiction ouer churches / ys vnlawfull / because he hath yt not of the gifte off Princes : and in this that the externall gouernement of the church / must be according to the forme / and kinde off gouernement in the commen wealth . Which is also manyfestly confuted there / whence he hath borowed this temony . Instit. 4. l. 6. cap. 9. sect. For there he addeth that althowgh yt were graunted / that there might be one Caesar ouer all the worlde : yet yt followeth not that there may be one bishop ouer all the churches . which notwithstanding muste needes folowe / if the externall gouernement off the church / muste be according to that forme / and kinde off gouernement vsed in the commen wealth . ᵃ For the distinction Diuis 42. pag 390. which supposeth certein ministers of the word / and Sacramentes onely / and certein to haue to gether with the administration off them / the gouernemente also : I refer the reader to that b b Diuis. 25. &c. pag. 313. &c. Diuis . 38. Pag. 385. before written . his vaine cauil that I desire to be vncontrolled off any but off God , is c c Diuis. 11. pag. 62. answered .

d d Diui. 43. pag. 391. The D. accuseth me off falsehood , for that I charge him with citing Augustine , and Crysostome at large . Towching Augustine : that he was so alledged appeareth / firste pag. 583. and both he / and Chrysostom pag. 296. Where he saith he vsed that large quotacion , onely once in Muscul . Cyril . and M. Fox : he coulde hardly doo yt oftner in the two laste / considering that as I remember / he alledgeth them once onely . but towching Muscul . beside the place I charge him with / he lefte his aduersary twise to his wide worckes . Where he remembreth not that he sendeth to any other writers , but with places quoted pag. 580. as particularly as he could : his memory which is so miraculouse at other times / is here but miserable . To helpe yt / beside this place off pag. 175. pag. 243. Cal. he sendeth to his Institutes / withowt any further restreinte as appeareth pag. 132. againe pag. 74. in his former booke : for he hath quoted yt in this later . Likewise that Damasus calleth Stephen Archdeacon / withowt any direction pag. 344. Also alledgeth Gratian / Polidore / Volateran / withowte any restreinte 589. pa. I omit that he sendeth towardes th end off his booke / to the large feilde off godly interpreters : that diuers times he gyueth the booke onely / where he might gyue the chap. the chap. onely where he mighte giue the section : all which are contrary to that he setteth downe . Wherby may appeare what a hard mouth he hath / and howe I speake sparingly off this kinde off allegation off his .

Charged heere by his fonde allegacion off Cal. Institut. he answereth / I knew there were sundry editions . I did so : but whether yt be absurd that he should leaue both the beste / and moste vsual to take that which is worse / and in the handes of fewe ( onles he mente to play vnder the boorde / that men should not vnderstand ) I leaue to the readers iudgement . His reason ( he had noted yt , laboured it , and was acqainted with yt ) is very simple . For is yt meete that because he had made his booke a litle heuier with yncke / he should be wedded so to yt / as to neglecte the commen commoditie ? how he is acquainted with yt I knowe not : but I trust yt hath / and shall appeare / that there is no more frendship betwene him and his booke in thes matters / then betwene light and darknes . But yt is foly to reason with him : for he addeth Doctorlike / that he both hath , and will so vse yt still . Howbeit how cometh yt to pas / that euen in his former booke he hath alledged the later edition ? belike ether that was some tributary allegacion : or els the latter pag. 606. was better to him there then his noted one . Howe vniustly he chargeth me with vncerteine direction / in ether all / or the moste off thes he setteth downe : I leaue to be iudged off that I haue said in that behalfe . The reste off this diuis . with the nexte / is nothing but bare / and bould affirmacions / reproches / and repetitions . The nexte to it hath nothing but trifling and vnlerned questions / b b diuis. 4. pag. 173. Diuis. 12. pag. 364. before answered . That set downe off the inconuenience off many speaking together / according to the prouerbe ( many may sing but not speake at once ) is not ( as he saith ) needles , but made way to the necessitie of hauing one which otherwise equal / should haue some preheminence in that action . The next hath nothing but railing wordes / with repetition off repetitions / and that beside the matter : considering that the cautions I put off the moderator in the assembly off ministers / I put not as alwais obserued off the D. Bishops / and Archbishops / but as those which owghte to be . In asking scripture for proofe , he dalieth : seeking for that he would not find / as the scholer the rod he must be beaten with .

The cocke / a glorious and proud birde / which will not suffer Diuis. 47 pag. 393. Cicer. de diuinat . Plinie . his victorie to be hidden / but proclameth yt forthwith by crowing : yet if he be ouercome hideth him selfe . Wherin he sheweth a great deale more modestie then the D. which althowgh he haue neuer a spur of argument ether to defend him self / or to offend his aduersary : yet croweth as high / as if the maistrie were in his hande . But let yt goe / let vs see his fighte . To that I alledgrd of Peter / chosen by the other Apostels to moderate the two firste actions / Act. 1. 15. Act. 2. 14. notwithstanding yt be not set downe : he answereth / yt is wicked to grounde th alteration of the archbishop , and our bishops gouernemente , continued long , and practised in the beste times of the church , withowt , yea contrary to the ground off scripture . The long continuance / onles they haue salte off the worde off God to preserue them / argueth they be rotten / and suche as caste an euill sauour . That they were not in the beste times off the church / hath before appeared : whether yt haue ground owte off the worde / that Peter was chosen by the Apostels / althowgh yt be not expressed : yt may partly appeare by that disputation vppon 20 Math. for if all the Apostels were lefte of our Sauiour Christe in equall autoriti● ▪ ether Peter tooke that vppon him withowt callinge / or els he receiued yt off the Apostels . But the firste is confessed vntrw : therfore yt hath grounde off the word off God / that Saint Peter was chosen off the Apostels vnto the presidentship in those actions . And as yt hath bene shewed owte off S. Mathew 20. that none off them was higher then other : so off S. Peter yt appeareth particularly / in that he / and S. Iohn were sent by the colledge of the Apostels : Act. 8. 14 wheras if he had bene made cheife by our Sauiour / and that from the ascention vnto his dying daie : yt had not bene lawfull for the Apostels by making him their Embassadour / to haue made him inferior to the res●d●w . I know what the Papistes answer in this poincte : but the D. bancke being discouered / I thincke he will chaunge his creditors .

Where he saith / yt is contrary to scripture because S. Peter 2. Act. so soudenly defended the Apostels againste the accusation off dronkennes , as he coulde not tary for their voices : it is ridiculous . For I would know first / what testimonie of scripture he hath / to proue yt doon so soudenly . Then / who is so sensles as not to vnderstand / that the eleuen standing with him / could not in a trice ether by voice / or finger lifted vp / caste that charge off speaking then / vpon Peter ? so that onles he did as it were take the Iewes wordes owte off their mouth : no time could wante for that matter . He saith further / Act. the 1 , and 15. considered , yt shal appeare allwaies Peters office to speake firste , and rule the action : and that he was at no time chosen therto by voices , much les at euery particular meeting : which first is a grosse petition off that in question . Then if wee were not hable to shewe by the worde / that our S. Christe did not apoincte Peter cheife off the reste : yet by what ether sentence / or worde owte off the scripture is he hable to shewe / that he was appoincted gouernour by him ouer all the reste / during his liffe ? Thirdly / to leaue Actes 15. disorderly alledged / which is to be handled in the very nexte diuision : let him shew vs how he can proue / that S. Peter was cheif in that action of praier / where yt ys said that all the Apostles lifted vp their voice . likewise in the election of the deacons : where the calling together Act. 4. 24 off the disciples / the exhortacion vnto them / the praier for the Deacons chosen / the laying on off handes is as indifferently Act. 6. 2. 3 4. 6. giuen to all the reaste / as to Peter . All know that one conceiued the praier in the name off the reste / that one was president in the election . But that that was Peter more then ether Iohn / or Iames / or any the reste : can not be shewed by one title off scripture : yet our D. doth assure vs / and ( as he saith ) owt off the scripture / that Peter was the lodesman .

Where I shew / that to suppose Peter not chosen by the Apostels / to take vpon him the gouernment / is to doo him iniury : he answereth / he was appointed vnto yt off God , and lawfully . As if to be appointed off God / and lawfully / could not stand with the Apostels chusing of him : or their election were not the election of God . For if he meane he was chosen to yt by Christe immediatly : it is that in question / wherof he bringeth not a lettre of proofe . But / this iudgement offmine hath no ground off scripture , or ether learned , or auncient autoritie . What ground off scripture I haue / let the reader iudge off that already / and to be alledged in the next diuis . For autoritie : I haue shewed that Musculus ( whom he hath made his pillor in Pag. 65 , this behalfe ) affirming that Peter was in many places the cheife , is againste him which saith / he was alwaies cheife : and for me / as giuing therby to vnderstand / that this cheiftie varied / and was sometimes put vpon other . Which is also confirmed by Caluin : Insti . lib. 4 ca. 6. 5. sect. who in saying / the Apostels gaue this vnto Peter for the moste parte , that he should speake firste : confirmeth both that he had his preheminence off the Apostels / and that he had yt not alwaies . Secondly / I haue here alledged the Scoliaste / that all was doone by commen consente . Wherto he answereth / he saith not Peter was at euery assembly chosen cheife : which is vaine . For if all were doone with consente : then Peters forespeaking / a parte of that which was done / was likewise . What wil he say to Gratian / his good expounder ? which in this cause is more fauorable then the Papistes he hath folowed / which fetch Peters cheifdome from our Sau. Christe : for he confesseth / that Peter was chosen by the Apostles . Wher owte off the scoliaste I shewed / that this Distin. 21. presidentship off Peter was not doone imperiously , with dominion , or powre : he answereth no lawfull iurisdiction , not of the king him selfe , is so . Which smelleth off Anabaptistrie / and is before confuted . For if the worde ( imperiously ) which I vsed / be taken often in euill parte : yet may not I beseche yow a Prince / doe princelike ? which is the worde the Scoliast vseth . may not the higher power doo thinges with powre ? both which the Scoliaste denieth to haue bene done of Peter . But there is in superioritie humilitie . If you meane that Princes muste be humbly minded / I graunte : but yf you meane that humilitie in Princes / will not suffer to commaund Princelike / in thinges lawfull : I denie yt .

He addeth / that in rule and autoritie ( meaning ciuill ) there is seruitude . If he meane to the lorde / I graunte : and then yt is nothing to the pourpose . If that Kinges are seruantes vnto their peoples / 1. cha. off this Tra. which onely can haue place here : I denie yt / for the cause before assigned . Where wee see againe how the D. as if he led Princes in a stringe / maketh them to beare vp my Lorde Archbishops traine . For seing he seeth yt denied him to rule princelike / or with powre : for shifte off answer he wresteth the scepter owte of their hand / saying the king him selfe may not doe so . yf the Scoliast had said that Peter did nothing tyrannically / nothing with oppression / which two are aswel denied vnto Princes / as to bishops : then the D. answer would haue serued . But when he saith / he did nothing 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . princelike , nothing by powr : yt is manifest he tawght / that the rule lawfull in Princes ouer their subiectes / was not meete for Peter ouer the other Apostels . Where he addeth / the Scoliaste saith Peter rose , &c. as one that had receiued the Presidentship of the Apostels : to let pas his translation / which in steed off disciples vnderstanded 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . of all the church / hath put Apostles which was peculier then to the 11. he doth but daly . For I deny not that Peter had receiued yt : but that he had yt giuen off our Sau. Christe immediatly / or during his liffe ( both which are in controuesie : ) there is not a worde . Where in the entrance off this diuis . he saith / Peter was in all such assemblies the cheife , and in an other place / he was the cheife in euery matter : and for proufe saith / the moste off the old ecclesasticall writers / in that respecte counte him cheife of the Apostels : yt had pag. 68. bene good he had shewed at the leaste one . I confesse that there are ould writers which call him so : but that they doo yt in that respecte , I denie . for the cheifty they giue him ouer the reste / was for his singular zeale / and other giftes : not as he saith for that he had autoritie ouer them .

For proofe wherof I will propound him / firste that a a Ierom. aduers . Pelag. Peter was Prince of the Apostels / as Plato was of the Philosophers : likewise that he b b Bulling. Dec. 5. se . was Prince off the Apostels / as Moses / Helias / Dauid / Isay off the Prophetes . Now if Plato were ruler / or had the commaundement off other Philosophers / or if Moses of the Prophetes that cam after his death : then Peter also might haue the same ouer the Apostels , but if they be therfore so called / because they excelled the reste in giftes : then yt is cleare / that thes fathers estemed not Peter chiefe / for any powre or autorny ouer the reste . An other saith / a a Cypr. de symplici . praelat . Peter was that the reste off the Apostels were , off like not office onely / but honour and powre : directly contrary to D. b b pag. 320. where he preferreth Peter in honour : and contrary to that he both here / and pag. 68. althowghe not in the same in wordes / yet indeed doth affirme . Thirdly / it is to be noted / that heere the D. hande is againe with Harding againste c Artic. 4. diuis. 31. the bishop : to whom alledging that Peter had powre ouer the reste off the Apostels / the bishop answereth : Peter was chiefe off the APostels as Aristippus is called chiefe off Philosophers : that is , the firste , or beste man off the company : where he denieth that S. Peter was ether lord , or Prince , or had powre , or was gouernour ouer the reste off th apostels . He addeth / from this opinion that Peter in all such assemblies and in all matters moderated the reste , was chiefe , and spake first , the late writers dissent not . If he meane the Instit. 4. l. 6. ca. se 5. Bullin . 5. dec. 3. ser. Bez. vpon 1. Act. Gualt . vpon . 1 Act. Papistes / I graunt : if the Catholike / he bringeth not / nor ( as I thincke ) can bring so much as one / which saith so . Here he hath the bishop againste him / to whom may be added Caluin / Bullinger / Beza / Gualter / with others .

Wher I shew that Iames ruled the action Act. 15. and not Peter , considering that he pronounced the sentence wherunto the rest agreed : he saith / first that Peter spake before the reste , which is vntrew , for there was great disputacion off both sides before d Diu. 48. pag 395. vers 7. Peter spake ▪ therfore yt muste needes be / that the cawse was propounded by some before . And so yt is friuolous he alledgeth owt off Caluin / to proue Peter proloquutor , for that he stoode vpon this especially that he mighte declare th estate of the question . as yf the Apostels Synode were so confused / that a great parte of it was spente / or euer the company were informed of the state off the question . Wheras Caluin meaneth / that S. Peter confirmed pithely / the trwth in that question : and not that he trauailed to shew wherin the question consisted / as appeareth by Peters whole oration . So that Saint Peters oration is firste set downe / not for that he spake firste : but for that he was the first amongeste the Apostels / and Elders / which S. Luke thowght good to commit to writing . It is also childish that Peter was moderator , because he spake after there was great disputacion : as if euery one which cometh betwene two parties striuing to draw them to concord / hath autoritie ouer them : considering that ther is not a worde in Peters oration / which giueth the least ynckling off suche autoritie . beside that to helpe him selfe / he shamfully slaundreth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . the Apostels Synode / attributing vnto yt a tumult , and bitter contention : where S. Luke saith onely greate disputacion , which may well be withowt both . Whether yt be custome off Synodes for the moderator to speake laste / and so to ponounce the sentence gathered vpon the former voices : I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader / referring him also to that the bishop writeth in this behalfe : who proueth ( against Harding / which will haue Peter Defence of the Apol. 6. part cap. 4. diuis . 2. Hierar . 3. li. ca. 10. In 3. Tra. cheife ) that Iames was chief , because he gaue the definitiue sentence . Wherby also appeareth that this came ether from Pigghius / or Harding / or from some suche popishe fen .

After admiting Iames Moderator / he faithe being then bishop by the Scoliastes iudgement , yt was not vnmeete he should be moderator within his charge . I haue shewed that an Apostle can not be changed into a bishop : and if he coulde / yet yt was vnmeete that S Peter should leefe his right / wherto ( he saith ) he was ordeined off God , to vse from th ascention vnto his dying day Therfore it is against him directlie : but how against me , he nether doth / nor can shew . Beside / it is absurde that an Apostle shoulde giue place vnto a bishop / because the bishop is in his charge : considering that an Apostle is in his charge / in what churche soeuer he come / and that as an Apostle : to whom the bishop ( vnlesse he were by consent chosen to gouerne the synode ) owght to giue place . And if yt be trew that it is meete the bishop of the place where the synode is houlden , should gouerne the synode : why hath he made this before a necessarie cause off In 12. diu . pag. 364. hauing an archbishop / to gouerne Synodes ? The other place off the Actes / makethe for this matter . For if Iames assembled the lders / and ruled that meeting wherin it was determined what S. Paule should doo / him selfe being present / which was ( as shall appere ) in nothing inferior vnto Peter ) : he might by the same right moderate the assemblie in Peters presence . Where I shew that Diuis . 49. Pag. 396. this is the superioritie which is amongest bishops / and ministers : he answereth / yt is so , but not all . But owt of the scripture ( wheroff the question is here ) he neither doth / nor can shew other superioritie : so that here his cause faleth flat .

Wher I alledged Maister Caluin / that one off the Apostles Diuis. 50. pag. 396. indefinitelie , not any one singular person , had the moderation off the rest : he answereth owt off him / that it would not be absurde if we confesse , that the Apostels gaue preheminence vnto Peter . Which is but daliaunce . For he affirmeth simply / that a a Calu. Epist. ad Reg. Polo . pa. 140 our Sauiour Christ meant nothing lesse , then to make Peter cheife off the reste off the Apostels . b b Instit. li. 4 6. cap. sect . 7. Here Hauing proued that Peter was nothing els , but one of the twelue , that he was equall vnto them , their fellowe not their lord , that they had as muche power ouer him , as he ouer them : he disputeth that if it were graunted which the Papistes require / off Peters being Prince off the Apostles ( which he vtterlie deniethe ) : yet yt followethe not which they would conclude / off a Pope . Likewise he daliethe / in shewing what autoritie the Consull off Rome , and masters of Colledges haue : adding that th archbishop is content with lesse . Where Caluin compareth the moderator in the ministers meeting / with the consulship not in all pointes / but onely in this / that he should propound the matters / &c. as before . Which appeareth in an other in diui . 38 pag. 385. 4 li. 4. ca. 2. sect. place / and euen in this verie place when he saith / yt is meete that althowghe they be all off equall power , yet there should be one as yt were moderator . And therfore if yow woulde haue made yowr archbishops according to Caluins measure . he owght to haue no more preheminence before the simplest pastor / then the Consull which spake / had before his fellow Consull which helde his peace . Wher he saith / the prolocutor chosen for the inferior sort of clergie , yet the Archbishop reteineth still his office : yt shewethe that he is now but an idoll / hauing put ouer the duty to other / for which he is supposed to haue bene so necessarie . But yt is manifest that the Prolocutor in the synode hathe all that preheminence / which Peter had aboue the other Apostels : and therfore which one pastor owght to haue aboue an other / which is that I browght yt for . The next I answere not .

Where I shew his vaine argument / that one bishop shoulde be aboue an other , because Paule an APostle was aboue Timothe an Euangelist : Diuis. 52. pag 373. he saith that yt houldethe , because they differ not in the administring off the the worde , and sacramentes , but in gouernement . Which is vntrew : for they differed in both alike . For as they differed from the Apostles / in that they gouerned those onely churches ouer which they were set / where the Apostles gouernement stretched vnto all churches : so they could not administer the worde and sacramentes / but where they were appointed / where the Apostles might do yt in all places . But for further confutation off this distinction / I In Diui. 27. p 314. referre me to that before . Where I shew his argument all one with this : my Lord maior is aboue the Sherifes , therfore one sherife is aboue an other : he saith I should haue concluded that because my Lord Maior hath rule ouer the cytisens , therfore the Apostels superioritie ouer an inferior degree off ministerie , proueth that one in the same degre of ministerie may rule ouer an other : Which is to ridiculous . For if it were ( as it is not ) a good argument from ciuill gouernement vnto ecclesiasticall : yet to saie that therfore one ecclesiasticall officer may beare rule ouer an other / yea that one may beare rule ouer his fellowes off the same order / becawse the magistrate beareth rule ouer priuate men / cleaneth togither as goates dounge . So that if there were any argument here / yt ys / that as my Lord maior ruleth ouer the cytisens : so yt behouethe the pastor to rule ouer his flocke . The next diuision is c c In 2. ca. off this Tract . answered . d d Diui. 54. pag. 399. Wher he calledged Calu. that vppon that Paul willed Titus to appoint Elders / saithe Titus was in autoritie and counsell aboue other Pastors : and I opposed Calu. which sheweth that he did nothing in that behalfe withowt the aduise off other pastors , and consent off the churches : he askethe whotly still for answere . As if it were not answered especially when I shewed before / that the superioritie that ministers can haue in suche meetinges / is onely to propounde &c. as is before declared . Which Calu. do the expresly set forthe in the same place / when he saith : S. Paule commaunded him onely vpon Tit. 1. Diuis. 55. pag. 399. to be president or moderator in the election .

The two first sections how shamefullie they be said / I leaue to the readers iudgement : in the last / against that I alledged owt off the Scoliaste / that Paule would not haue one rule the whole Ile / and therfore not Titus : is browght first an exposition gone abowte to be confirmed off him / and Chrysostome / which say that Paule committed vnto Titus Crete , and to Timothie almoste all Asia . As yf that might not well stand with that / that Titus gouerned one citie alone . for in that they had autoritie giuen them / to appoint ministers in forme aforesaid / in all that circuite / vntill the churche there were fully established / and a lawfull ministerie throwghly planted ▪ there charge in that respecte / extended yt selfe to that whole circuite . But when the countrey was deuided into seuerall churches / and euery churche had a lawfull / and complete ministery : he charge before generall / is now restrained vnto that one churche where Titus made his abode . Euen as euerie off the 12. Princes / and Aaron which deuided the land off Canaan / had before partition a certein power off all : which after lottes cast had onely to do with that / which apperteined to them in seuerall . A thowgh yf yt be graunted that Titus and Timothe continued that large gouernement / during their abode there / wherin I will not striue ) : yet considering as hathe bene shewed they were Euangelistes / and no Bishops / nor Archbishops : there can nothing grow to them hereby . For as no man can haue gouernement ouer all the churches which the Apostels had / but they that haue that speciall office : so none can succede into the iurisdiction off Euangelistes / but they onely which haue that extraordinarie ministerie . And therfore Caluin in the place before cited off the D. saith / there was not then suche equalitie , &c. but that one did rule ouer an other : noting by the word then ( which the D. hathe vnfaithfully left owt ) that the gouernement which Titus had in Creta / was for those times when ther were suche extraordinarie callinges .

Wher he saith / in streightening Titus to one church , I make him pastor , Diuis. 56. pag. 400. which I donie : let him learne that to haue charge in one church alone / not a pastor / vnles he be so tied that he can not departe / withowt the churche lose his bonde . Which neither Titus was / nor is by any word affirmed off me . Whether the rest be shamels accusations / let the reader iudge . The next / althowghe vnworthy of answer / being but bare affirmacions against my reasons / is answered e e in 2. Tra. Diuis . 1. Pag 197. before As for that those wordes receiue no accusations , &c. must needes be vnderstanded of one which hathe other elders vnderneathe him , and therfore not off euerie pastor : yt argueth that the D. is spent . For he knowethe that we hould that euery pastor had his elders assistan : which hath / and shall ( God willing ) appeare . Besides that it argueth his ignorance off the state of the elder churches : wher ( as hathe bene shewed ) bishops sat in iudgement off other bishops / and elders not vnderneath them . That ther be not a hundreth 1. Tim. 3. 2. & 4. 12. & 5. 10. Tit. 2. 2 Diuis. 59. pag. 402. seuerall preceptes , in the three epistles to Timothe , and Titus ( wheras in diuers verses there be sixe / or seuen ) doth well become his bouldnes . Against reason alledged owt off Augustine / that the place owt off Epiphanius was of some false Epiphanius : here is nothing but autoritie . Howbeit not to striue for this : before I come to answere yt is to be noted / that this is Pigghius reason against the churche off God / euen in the verie selfe same cause which we haue now in hand / towching this sort of bishops . For against the Waldenses firste / and after against Wickleue / which put no difference betwene a bishop / and a priest : c c Pigghius . Hierar. 2 lib. 10. ca. Pigghius hath a treatise in his Hierarche / wherin he pressethe them with this testimonie of Epiphanius . And further saith of Wickleue / that therfore he tooke away the difference betwene bishop / and elder / because he could not obteine the bishoprick of Worcester . and in d d lib controuers. 16. contr. an other booke inueigheth sharplie against them / for that they would haue neither Pope / nor primate / nor Archbishop / nor Bishop .

And that yt may yet appeare euen to the simple reader / that they had the same cause against Pigghius / and the Papistes which we against the D. I offer to his consideration / besides the two flat testimonies of M Barnes and Hooper e e in the preface to the 3. cap. before cyted / M. Wickleues tenthe article in thes wordes f f M. Fox Ther be 12 disciples of Antichrist : Popes , Cardinalles , Patriarckes , Archbishopes , Bishops , Archedeacons , Officials , Deanes , Monkes , Chanons , Fryers and Pardoners . If the D. say that Wickleue spake that not off the offices / but off their abuse in popery : that shift will not serue / considering that he leaueth owt priestes / and Deacons . Wherof the priest especially / doing more mischeife then diuerse which are reckened : yet because he occupied the place off the pastor in euery congregacion / which was the ordinance off God / and was onely a deprauacion / and deformitie off the trew ministerie : he spareth him . the other because they were deuised / partlie herbingers to prepare his way / partly puruc●ers to interteine his estate : he marked with the black cole off Antichristianitie . Yf yt be further said / that Wickleue should by this meanes condemne the estate off a bishop / which S. Paule alloweth off : yt is manifest that he bet against the lord bishop / which ruleth ouer other ministers in adiocese : considering that he leaueth the priest / the deformitie of the teaching minister / which minister is all one ( as hath bene shewed ) with S. Paules Bishop . Beside this reason / they may as well saye he spake not against the office off Pope / Chanons / Monkes / Friars / Pardoners / but onely against the abuse : which is absurde . This to the learned may better appeare by Pigghius discourse : which confesseth that the Waldenses / and Wickleue left the orde● off priesthode ( as they call yt ) and that the whole question betwene them was not whether lord bishops / and Archbishops did their dutie / but whether they were lawfull estates . Wherby appearethe that whosoeuer was the D. marchant / these wares come from one off the filthiest puddels off popery : and withall that as sone almost / as there was any set and apparant estate of the churche / which proclaimed open warre against Antichrist / the letters off defiaunce were as well sent against the In lib aduers. papat . a Satana fundat . vel Parochis . 1. Cor. 12. Rom. 12. Archbishop / and longehanded bishop / as against the Pope .

Luther also after them / writethe thus : Bishops whersoeuer they be in all the worlde , are equall to our bishops , or parishe ministers , and preachers : of none can yt be said one is lord , an other a seruant : they are off the same iudgement , and whatsoeuer belongethe to the churche , equally belongeth to all except that ( which Paule teacheth ) some preacher or Christian may be off a sounder faith then other , haue greater giftes then another , interprete the scripture better then an other , rule better then an other , preache better , and haue the discretion off spirites more then an other &c. howbeit suche giftes cause no inequalitie , or lordship in the church Here I will also set downe the iudgement off the reformed churches in Heluetia / Zurich / Berne / Geneua / Polonia / Hungery / Scotland / &c. who hauing reckened the ministries specified in scriptures / add : in the times in their confession . following ther were many other titles off ministers browght into the churche For some were ordeined Patriarckes , some Archbishops , other Suffraganes , also metropolitanes , Archelders , &c. but for all those we passe not ether what they were in times past , or are now : the Apostels doctrine of the ministers is sufficient for vs . Yf all these churches make no accounte off these offices / not onely as they are now / but when they were at the best if they esteme them withowt the doctrine of the Apostles : I leaue to the readers iudgement what estimacion they had off them / and how the D. woulde abuse vs / that drawethe the sentences of the cheif in this confession / to proue their conuenience . Neither do I dowbt but that our Archebishops / and Bishops refusing to ioyne with the rest off the churches in this confession / did it because they could not digest this morsell especiall .

Now to come to the D. that saith / Epiphanius calleth vs heretickes : which pinchethe vs . master Wickleue / and the pore Waldenses bare yt at Pigghius hand / we must do yt at the D. in dede so muche more pinching / as yt commethe from him / from whom yt least owght . But what remedy : the Lord will looke to it in time . Howbeit because this arrow is ( as yt is said ) of Epiphanius a man subiecte to error / shot owt off Pigghius bow / one giuen vpp to error / hauing no heade off the worde of God to make yt enter : yt may peraduenture raise the skin / but wounde yt can not make . But Augustine reckenethe yt so : but Augustine reporteth what he found written . for towching his owne iudgement he is flat against Epiphanius : which maketh a bishop and an elder differ by the Apostels institution / wheras Augustin ( as I haue shewed ) in 16. diu . pag. 169. teacheth euen as Ierome / that this difference was not by the word of God / but by custome . now I would know of the D. how Augustin can houlde that for an heresie / which ( to leaue the rest ) can not be conuinced by the word off God / but onely by a custome off the churche . And here first he must either let goe his hould of Ierome / or this of Epiphanius . For if yt be trw that Epiphanius houldeth / that a bishop and an elder differ by the Apostels institution : then it is false which Ierome and others hould / that they were all one at the first / and that the difference came by custome . Contrariwise if Ierome in that point say true ( as in dede he dothe ) : then Epiphanius authoritie falleth . Secondly / yf the D. will preiudice this cause / for that Epiphanius a Catholike thowght them to differ by the word off God / where Aerius an heretike thowght them all one / or els in that Augustin reckeneth that amongest his heresies : by the same reason he must preiudice this trwthe / that we owght not to praie / or make any oblation for the dead . For both a a lib. 3 : Tom. 1. 75. haeres . Epiphan. estemed him an heretike for his iudgement in that behalfe : and b b ad quod vult Deum haeres. 53. Augustin reporteth this as one off his heresies / which is catholike doctrine . So that Pigghius might vse this autoritie better / which condemnethe as well the one / as the other : then the D. which houldethe ( as I thincke ) for Catholike / that which Aerius the hereticke affirmed / and for hereticall / which Epiphanius the Catholike condemned .

The flower off Epiphanius reasons / browght before / is answered : now the D. distressed / bringeth forth tag and rag . for towching Epiphanius saying ( the bishop by imposition off handes begetteth fathers 1. teachers to the churche , where the priestes begate onely sonnes : yt is but asking off that in question / when Aerius holding them both one by Gods institution : the imposition off handes belonging vnto the bishop / muste nedes be affirmed to apperteine vnto the elder . neither doth Epiphanius answer the reason owt off S Paule / that Timothe was ordeined c c 1. Tim. 4. 14 by imposition off handes off the companie off elders . Likewise that browght off a bishop aboue an elder , because d d 1. Tim. 5 1 S. Paule willeth Timothe not to rebuke an elder : to let goo other faultes as many as are wordes in the sentence / yt is absurde that he referreth that vnto an elder by office / which is spoken of an elder by yeares / and referreth that to the publicke minister which is vnderstanded onely off a priuate membre off the churche : as appeareth manifestly by the opposition off a yong man / and after off the elder woman . So I leaue to be estemed / what good cause the D. hath to couer his face / in that wheroff he so greatly vaunteth . The next diuision is a a Tract. 3. cap. 3 de Euangelist , &c. answered . In the next / I leaue it to the reader whether the D. order hath the heeles vpward : which after endeuoure to shew the necessitie / the causes / yea the examples off a thinge / setteth him selfe to proue that it was . Althowgh if this be his trim order / he hath kept it euill . for Chrysostome browght for confirmacion off the first / comethe after Ierome / which is browght to beare vp his seconde . b b 61. diui. pag 409. That Ignatius bishop was but off one particular congregation onely / I c c in the praef. to the 3. ca. off this Tractat. haue shewed : and therfore the wordes ( ouer all ) pressed off the D. as they are off d d 4. lib , 1. ca Hiera . Pigghius from whence this was taken / are vnderstanded of those within his particular churche . Besides / the kinde of speach may be easelier drawen vnto the whole worlde / then off a diocese / or prouince : for the reason assigned in my e e diuis. 7. pag. 357. former booke : That the bishop owght to be aboue the elders which onelie gouerned / and deacons : is confessed . yf he were aboue the teaching elders / that was by custome : whether good or bad / let it be iudged off that said . Howbeit that that be graunted : yt maketh nothing to proue a bishop ouer a diocese / muche lesse an Archbishop .

When the bishop in euerie church / or ( to speake as the D. ) in euerie diocese , was the Cheife / aboue whom there coulde not by Diuis. 62. pag. 409. this Ignatius be any higher bishop in earthe : I leaue yt to the readers iudgement how absurde the D. is / who saith that Ignatius dothe not ouerthrow his Archishop . for therby he affirmeth / that albeit the bishop off the Diocese were the highest bishop that coulde be vpon earthe : yet there might be an other higher then he . Also how fonde he is in his reason / that for as muche as an archbishop is a bishop : therfore Ignatius allowing one , allowethe the other . When yt is manifest by his owne confession / that Ignatius speaketh off one onely sort off bishops / either of one particular church / as the trwthe is : or off one diocese / as he imagineth . So that his argument is / Ignatius allowethe one sort off bishops : therfore the Archbishop . all one as if a man should say / he hath a kinde off fishe in his moate / therfore a whale fishe .

The D. detected / in that Iustins president was neither bishop Diuis . 63. Pag. 410. off diocese / nor Archbishop off Prouince / but of one congregation : for excuse saith / he browght the place to proue there might be superioritie ouer the ministers . Where first his trim order , that all my logicke , and Rhetoricke is not able to moue , is too pitifull . for how childishe is yt / after so long trauaile to proue a bishop ouer the ministers off a diocese / and th archbishop of a Prouince / in the ende to endeuour to proue / that ther may be superioritie ? as if any man would denie this that graunted the other : and yt is to set the fondacion vpon the louer . yet I would know off him what meanethe the word ( this ) wherby appeareth not onelie that he browght yt to proue superioritie : but the superioritie either off a bishop ouer a whole diocese / or an Archbishop ouer a Prouince : considering that this is the superiority which he speake of before / and im̄ediatelie after . Secondly where I bothe by the vse of the scriptures / and auncient writers shewed the word Brethren , not taken for the gouernours but the people : obserue how vainly he answerth / that Iustine meant the ministers , and deacons by brethren , because he calleth the people after by the name off people . As if the rest off the church were not called both in scripture / and other writers / by diuerse names . Thirdly how if it be graunted / that Iustins president had superioritie ouer the minister : yet how fondly yt is concluded / that yt is lawfull / because yt was . Then how his weapons fetched from Maister Beza / haue alwaies their edge towarde him / and his cause . For he alledgeth him to proue that Iustins president did gouerne the reste / and had the name off bishop : which in the same place flatly condemneth that pollicie / as is declared . Lastly / in 33. diu . Pag. 347. how by this answer / he maketh euerie pastor off a congregacion to handle the gouernemen : which before he tooke from him / when he shutteth him vp in the administracion of the word / and samentes only .

Iustines writinges compared as I compared them / with the holie scripture / are as I said a ditche : I added the reason / that ther was in them not a litle mudd off errors / which the D. could not answer : otherwise I acknowledge him both godlie / and learned . Maister Beza sought not the word president in Iustine , but sheweth how Timothe did the office at Ephesus / which Iustines president did : which was meete / considering he had a higher ministerie then any there . So that althowgh Timothe aboue the degree off a bishop / kept that presidentship continually during his abode : yet there was no reason that one Pastor off the same degree with other / should take that vpon him . Yf he were the true Ignatius / he should in dede be before Iustin : but to let passe other exceptions / withe M. Caluins sharpe censure off him : yt is absurde to ascribe to Ignatius S Iohns scholer / that vaine boaste / off being able to a a Ignat. ad ●ral . expound the orders off Angells / their varieties / the distinctions and differences betwene vertues / powers / Thrones / &c. b b Diui 64 pag. 411. That priest is no fit name for a minister off the gospell , is towched after : that the names proper to our S. Christ / can be communicated with man / is absurd / and before confuted : where also the name off Prince / a peace off Prince off Priestes , is shewed vnfit 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 fer the ministery . That there may be one Archbishop ouer bishops / as there is one bishop ouer pastors / hathe no parte trw / as hathe bene shewed : onely let yt be noted / that the reason here for the Archbishop / is c c Defence Apol. part. 5. c. 6. Diui. 1. Hardinges for the Pope .

d d Diui. 65. 66. pag. 41● . This argument browght e e diuis . 18. Pag. 332. before and f f pag 471 after / to proue our Archbishops iurisdiction ( that one had care of the whole Prouince ) here is pursued . wherunto I answer here / that care dothe not necessarily draw iurisdiction / or rule ouer that cared for : seing that there is no minister ( I might haue said also no magistrate ) yea no priuate membre / which owght not to haue / and shew forthe a care / off all the churches which are in Christendome / euery one according to the meanes which the lord hath giuen . The Prince with his power / the minister with his conforte / and instruction / the priuate man with the wealthe God hath blessed him withe / at the least with his praier : the communion off sainctes / and fellowfeeling in the members off one bodie / requiring this . Hereoff we haue example in g g 1. Tom. Concil. earth . 3. Aurelius / which saith he had care off all churches . Bouins a Popishe friar / or Monke I well remembre not whether / tawght in this point in the same schole with the D. in esteming that care off churches implied rule : least the bishop off Rome should be hurte by that speache / expoundeth all churches , all in Affricke . Our D. ʰ alledging this place / because in taking care in his sence / for rule with authoritie / he should pag. 471. in trauailing with the Archbishop haue browght vs forth a Pope : in steede off all churches , putteth many churches . so that he wil neuer want : for if his places be to streite for his Archbishops measure / he settethe them vpon the teinter hookes : if to wide / he laiethe them in water and shrinkethe them . But what shoulde I stand in confuting this ? seing yt is so farr off that care prouethe rule / and dominion : that it is sene not onely in one equall ouer an other / but euen in seruantes ouer their masters . As for that that is said / Chrysostomes care restreined here to certeine places , can not be vnderstanded off suche a generall care as comprehendeth all churches : I answer that the care off his owne churche being properly commended vnto him / it is mete that as the churches next doo most affecte his / bettering it commonly yf they be good / making yt worse if they be nawght : so in that generall care ouer the rest / ther should be suche dispensation / as to haue a greater care ouer those / then ouer the rest : as we see in wise Princes / more carefull off the borderers / then off those further remoued from them . In which degre yt is not vnproperlie spoken / that he had the care off suche churches rather then off all .

His foure notes owt off Theodoret / depend vpon these wodes ( the same care ) : so that yf yt fall owt that Chrysostome had not the same rule ouer Thracia / Asia / &c. which he had ouer Constantinople : then those wordes spoken off the gouernement he had in that citie / are idle to proue the same in Thracia / &c. But first the D. crieth owt of corruption , crafte , and either ignorance , or malice . good wordes Maister D. I pray yow . For ignorance yt is no greate matter / I am content yow say that I borowed two greeke wordes off my neighbours . But why corruption , & c ? did I not set downe wordes sufficient to confute your vntrew dealing / which in stede of care / put downe rule ? was I bownd to set downe more in greke / then yow surmised in Englishe ? yea could I haue set downe the worde yow require / with any sence vnto the reader : vnles I had set downe ( as yow now ) the whole story / and so haue giuen your cause greater coulour then your selfe knew of then ? I helpe yow diuerse times with argumentes which yow make much of : but will yow binde me to do so alwaies ? I haue more coulour to crie out of yow / which to proue In the next din. Chrysostome gouernour of these places / voluntarily cite Socrates trippinglie / winding vp in thes wordes ( et caetera ) which is your ruine / and which manifestly confuteth the largenes yow suppose off the bishop off Consiantinoples metropolitaneship . Therfore seing this bitternes must be vented / yow at least should haue waited some better opportunitie . now let vs see whether these wordes ( he had the same care ouer Thracia , &c that he had ouer the churche off Constantinople ) will intitle Chrisostome lawfully to as great authoritie ouer one / as ouer the other . For the discussing wheroff I must by thy good leaue gentle reader / fetche this matter somewhat higher .

The a a Socr. li. 5. ca. 8. Councell off Nice / bounding and butting the metropolitaneships decreed / that the bishop of Constantinople ( which it calleth the greate citie ) should be metropolitane ouer Thracia / certeine other ouer Pontus / others ouer Asia : to the nombre off ten metropolitaneships . This order was confirmed by other councels off Constantinople / and Ephesus / as they are b b Vieler . de statu Primit . obserued : and continued vntill the councell off Calcedon which moste confusedly / and disorderedly throwghe extreme Ambition off the bishop off Constantinople / drowned almoste all these ten / in his one onlie sea . Where also yt was ordeined by the same Councell of Nice / that the Metropolitanes shoulde be off equall power / and not one vnder an other : this Councel made one Metropolitane ouer a nombre . Where further it was ordeined by diuerse Councells / as hath partely before / and partely may appeare by ᶜ Theodoret / lib. 5. 23 cap. that the Metropolitane off euerye Prouince / shoulde be chosen by the bishops theroff : this Councell maketh the bishop of Constantinople / to haue the appointement off all metropolitaneships / within the compas alledged by the D. Moreouer where the same Nicene Councell / with sundrie others ordeined / that the bishops of the Prouince at the least three / should be at the ordinacion off euerie bishop : this Councell giue the yt in the bishops off the Barbarians ( meaning as I suppose Scithians ) vnto him off Constantinople . Now if the D. will make Chrysostome accessary vnto this famous robberie / if giltie off all this confusion / and disorder off the breache off so many Canons off the Nicene / and other Councels / and finally if he will make him a Pope : he dothe him that iniurie which I would be lothe . For where vnto me / alledging that if he were Archbishop off all thes churches , he was off moe then euer the Pope , in his greatest pride : he answereth that I am greatly deceiued , for that Phocas the Emperour made all these churches , and all other subiecte to the Pope , and appointed him head off all : I answere that he is greatly deceiued . Considering that the Empire being deuided into the east / and weast Empire / more then 250. yeares before Phocas made Boniface the third Pope : Phocas coulde not hauing his Empire for the most part in the easte / where the churches were most ruined / make all or halfe the churches subiecte vnto Boniface . So that yt ys manifest that Chrysostome ( by his saying ) metropolitane off all Asia , and a good parte off Europe : must needes haue moe vnder him / then Pope Boniface . What the Pope claimed , is nothing to that I set downe : which spake precisely off that he was / and not off that he claimed to be . Therfore if he build vpon Chrysostomes supposed metropolitaneship : he doth manifestly allow a larger circuite vnto a bishop / then euer any Pope had .

Yf I would haue sought to haue discredited Chrysostome : I might haue answered that yt was no meruaile / thowghe he exercised suche dominion / considering that bothe Socrates / and Camerarius after him / which commende diuerse vertues off his lib. 6. c. 4 affirme him to haue bene a proud man . But considering that him selfe opposeth the Emperours large dominion / to a bishops charge in one cytie : I chose that sence which I setdowne . Neither are there any wordes either in Theodoret / or the Centuries / so strong to carrie the metropolitaneship ouer all these places / to Chrysostome : as Nazianzenes wordes before handled / are to carrie in diu . 26 pag. 340. the metropolitaneship off almost all the churches in the worlde / vnto Cyprian . For these wordes he had the same care , can not be vnderstoode as the D. would / that he did the same thinges in all places which he did at Constantinople . For how could he teache / and rebuke sin in all that circuite / as there ? depriue and excommunicate in proper person / as there ? so that will he nil he / the wordes must haue a restreint in respecte off those before . as for the greke word he translateth he gouerned , which signifieth he adorned : vnles he haue some singular licence / i● is for a translation 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 especially / too riotous . althowghe if that were there : yt drawethe no metropolitane autoritie / as hathe bene shewed in Cyprians example . I graunt Sozomenes are more pressing / which speakethe off his deposing off the bishops in Asia : and if to mainteine my former answere I would say / he deposed them not by his autoritie / but by his counsaile / as Diophantus said off the Plutarch . de instit . pueror . cytie of Athenes ruled by him , because Themistocles his father which ruled yt , was guided by his mother , and his mother by him : and therto alledge that he is called the Doctor off the woride by the same b b 5. lib. ca. 32. Theodoret / when notwithstanding he coulde not be an authorised doctor off suche a compas : yt would peraduenture be more then he can wel answer . But if he will as he dothe / make that his paterne to frame his Archbishop by : he maketh vs a faicrer but to shoote at / then before : the archbis . being made therby in authoritie off breaking canons off the best Councells / by putting in and putting owte off his absolute power / not infeferior vnto the pope of Rome / and in compasse off dominion aboue him / and a fatter Pope then he . And beside that it is but trifling / to fetche examples off Archbishop like gouernement / fower hundrethe yeares and a halfe after Christe / or there abowt / where the question is off three hundrethe : I haue shewed how daungerous yt is / to builde vpon the examples off those times : especially when euen in this pointe off broad dominion / before Chrysostomes time there was an intollerable excesse in the bishop off Antioche : which beside Chrysostomes compas / had also all Theodor. li 5. ca. 23. Illyricum .

Towching Ireneus ambassage into Phrigia : the D. eye is not simple . For after Euseb. had shewed that there were Ambassadours 5. li. ca. 3. & 4. sent by the frenche churches / to those off Phrigia : he addeth as an augmentation / that they were also sent to the bishop off Rome . After to the ende the ambassage might haue more autoritie / he sheweth how Ireneus was sent being commended vnto the bishop off Rome : to the end ( as may easely appeare ) that his letter also obteined with theirs / the churches might be the rather moued . Whether I haue followed the Scoliastes meaning / towching euerie hishop hauing a seuerall congregation : I referre me to that I haue before alledged . The D. answer to Homil. 3. in Act. Chrysostome which placeth the bishops charge in one citie ( that he dothe but shew how the Bishop ys subiecte to as many afflictions , as the Emperour , and that he puttethe no difference betwene the Bishop and the Emperour ) is but a cauill . For his pourpose is to shew / what are the manifold troubles that accompanie the mynistery / therby to pinche those which seeke after yt : and that he dothe with an argument off comparison / in that being but bishop off one citie : yet he is subiecte not onely to so many , but to moe troubles then the Emperour / which hath so large gouernement . Now if bishops autority should be extended / as the D. estemeth Chrysostomes : who seeth not that his comparison halteth downe right ? considering that there were few Emperours / or rather none sithens Constantine / that euer had so large dominion / as this ascribed vnto Chrysostome . For against this argument yt might haue bene easely replied / off those which laie in waite for the ministerie / that seing one was able to gouerne so many whole countreis / and nations : yt could not be so hard a matter / to gouerne one onely citie .

I could not here be put to shifte , seing where our question is off 300. yow fetche your proufes off 400. whether I haue said Diuis. 67. pag 415. trew : let the reader iudge . Where I alledge the first acte off the Calcedon Councell / that the bishops cried that Theodoret was no bishop : be alledgeth the 8. acte , that he was . If yt be a a pag. 65. a simple answere to set one author against an other : yt is muche more simple to set one autoritie at variaunce with yt selfe / withowt shewing any way of reconciliation . That the Councell did well in condemning that Theodoret / appeareth for that he had b b Euag. 4. lib. ca. 38. written against Cyril / euen in that Cyrill wrote against Nestorius errors : in which respecte his c c Concil. Ephes. bookes were commaunded to be burnte with those errors . And this was not onely done by the Councel off Calcedon / but by that also off Ephesus / and Constantinople : so that here are three condemnations passed against him / for one absolution . And that what maner off one ? verelie which appeareth to haue bene throwghe the fauour off the Emperour Martian . For what if he reuoked his heresie there / as he had ( I thinck ) done before in the Councel off Constantinople : yet as I haue shewed / there was no cause why he should be trusted with suche a greate charge / no not in the D. iudgement ( I suppose ) so soudenlie / and withowt further triall . Which I say not to discredite his trew repentance / and learned writinges : but onely to shew / how totteringlie the D. Archbishop is set .

Where I alledged that the Emperour Theodosius , and Valentinian commaunded him to kepe him to his owne church onely : his answere is fond / that the Emperours meaning was , that he should not come to the Synode . For are these two all one : to kepe him self to his owne churche onely , and not to come to the Synode ? ? When he might come to the synode / althowghe he kept not him selfe to his owne churche onely : which he could not haue done / yf they had bene all one . Where he saithe / yt appeareth that the Emperour gaue that charge , that he should not come vnto the Synode but called : yt maketh nothing to the pourpose . For that may well stand with that I alledged / off his keping to one churche onely . And in dede there had bene small wisdome / to haue forbidden him the Councell in respecte off the heresie he laboured off : and yet to haue suffred him to gouerne such a mightie people . When I expounded tares , hipocrites : I had not the booke before me / but trusting therin to Theodoretes knowledge in the scripture / estemed that he meant them / off whom the parable is vnderstanded : that is those / off whose ether corruption in life / or doctrine / the churche can haue no certeine knowledge to procede againste / or to giue ( as he did ) sentence vpon . Neither is he yet purged off the suspicion : considering that yt can hardly be belieued / that ther was not in 800. churches one onely heretike . And if ther were not : yet yt was hard for him to haue suche knowledge off so many churches / wherby he might giue so precise a sentence : especially if they be compared with ours / which often haue heretikes euen vnder there nose / and either see them not / or looke throwghe their fingers .

Where to declare the vnlikelihoode off our bishops with Diuis . 68. Pag. 416. them in times past / Theodoret bishop 26. yeares is shewed to haue had neuer a halfepennie , &c : his answere is / he professed voluntarilie pouertie . Wherto I haue litle to replie / but that the D. for aduantage spareth not the honour of his authors : it being a great reproche in so great wealthe as the D. supposeth he might lawfully haue had / to be so beggarly . The next I leaue to the readers iudgement . That the office off Archbishop / and Patriarck / by Caluin was nothing but to assemble the Synod / propound diu. 70. 71 pag. 418. in diu . 38. pag. 385. the matter / gather the voices / &c. I haue shewed . condemning those names in the generall / he must nedes condemne them in the particular : for in bothe those names / the word off dominion ys put / which he condemneth . That he condemneth the office with vs / is clearer then the sunne : and that in diuers sortes / first generall in that vppon the Apostles wordes ( no man may take honour but he that is called as Aaron ) he denieth a a Vpon the Heb. yt lawfull to set vp any gouernement in the churche at the pleasure off men , withowt waiting for the commaundement of God and that the church office deuised withowt his commaundement , and expresse ordinance , is vnlawfull . Wherby appeareth that the admonitions allegacion / which the D. b b Diuis. 11. pag. 462. other where calleth grosse , is in effect as fyne as Caluins . Secondly in that he dothe in flat wordes declare / c c Inst. 4. li. ca. 4. s . 4 : that the holie goste tooke great heede / that one should not so much as dreame off principalitie / and dominion in the gouernement of the churche . Thirdly in that he d d Vpon the Philip. 1. dothe precisely mislike / that any should haue postorall charge ouer a Prouince : which he declareth yet more manifestlie / when he e e Inst li. 4. ca. 6. se . 2. saithe the gouernement of the highe priest which was ouer one nation ▪ being a figure off our Sau. Christ , owght not to be followed Wherby appeareth how vntrwly he chargeth me f f Diui. 16. Pag. 467. otherwhere / with falsifiyng Caluin , for saying that his iudgement is , that no one should be minister off a whole nation . That g g Vpon Philip : 1. onely which he liketh off / and confesseth to haue bene done according to the word off God / is that when there were controuersies to be voided / one had the preheminence to assemble the companie / &c. which preheminence we haue before confirmed / so far is yt from vs / that we can not abide yt .

That it can not be drawen further / appeareth by that in the beginning off this treatise : where it is manifest he streineth him selfe / to speake honorably off the maner off discipline in the elder churches : yet he saith / h h 4. li. ca. 4. sec. 1. there was almost nothing againste the word off God . And further / that althowgh there may be some lack in their orders : yet because they did it oft good mynd and erred not muche , it is good to gather yt . Moreouer towching that institution which off all other is most plausible / and least princelike / that one in a churche should haue the name off bishop / which notwihstanding ( as hathe bene shewed ) had no dominion / nor autoritie to commaunde the reste / he saithe : i i Vpon 1. Philip. that autoritie had no institution , nor ground owt off the word of God . Wherupon yt is manifest / those wordes off Calu. ( the ould bishops did frame no kind off gouernement but prescribed in the lordes word ) can not be drawen further then I haue said . Where he expoundeth Caluins wordes / euery singular bodie off church , a dioces or prouince : yt is ( as all the rest off these diuisions ) a shamefull bouldnes / considering that Calu. doth in expresse wordes / shut forthe a prouince : and in calling it a singular bodie , vsed moste propre wordes to set forthe a congregation which assembled into one place / may at once be fed at one mouthe .

Where also otherwhere he supposeth Calu. meant by Prouinces , suche as are vnder diuerse gouernours , because one Prouince in one particular pag. 468. church , in one kingdome , vnder one Prince , is but one bodie , &c. to omit his absurd speache / that a prouince is in a particular churche , in stede that he should haue said / a particular churche is in the prouince : let it be obserued that in making the whole churche in a kingdome / but that singular bodie Calu. speaketh off : he maketh notwithstanding the churche in one prouince / which is the halfe off that / yea euery diocese to be that singular bodie . So that one singular / and vndiuisible bodie off a churche / must be twentie / and one off them also conteining an other : which is absurde . yea by this meanes the church in a 100. Prouinces being vnder one Prince / shall be but one singular bodie . His reason that he can not meane a particular parish , because euery one hath not many ministers : is a cauill . For it is enowghe that ther were diuerse in some churches ( as in the churche off Philippes wheroff he spake ) to draw him to that consideration . Besides that there was ( as shall appeare ) in the particular churches / appointed by the word off God an eldership : amongest whom it was meete the same order shoulde be kepte . Where he supposethe Caluin to haue thowght the churche off Geneua with all those belonging vnto yt , to haue made but one bodie off a churche : all see the D. pouertie / driuen to leaue his wide workes / to seeke some comforte in his thowghtes / onely knowen to the lord . If I shoulde vse the aduantage off that he spake / and I hearde off vndowbted witnesses / that althowghe he had no preheminence before the lowest Mynister / but onely to propounde the causes / gather the voices / &c. and was chosen therunto euerie two yeare : yet he misliked that that small preheminence shoulde so long remaine with one / as which in time might breed in conuenience : likewise that I hearde my selfe off Maister Beza which misliked off yt for the same cause / affirming it conuenient that it shoulde be done by euerie Pastor off the same resort in his weeke / wheroff there be also other witnesses : I say yf I should vse this aduantage / a great deale more honest then his : all see how that chaunge of presidentes which he derideth / and will haue my onely phantasie , should beside the scripture alledged / and vse off the churches in Fraunce / haue the approbation off these godly learned men . But when in deede he deride the their iudgement written : I haue smale hope that he will beare any reuerence to it onely spoken . Neither require I that he esteme any thing theirs / which can not be conuinced owt off their writinges : let him wreste and wring / wind and turne his worst .

But that we be not streight with him / admit Caluin so thowght : dothe yt follow that becawse he estemed a singular bodie off a churche / scarce 20. small parishes lying round abowt / wheroff euery off the ministers at the least meete once a weeke / bothe for exercise off prophesie / or interpretacion off the word / and to hould common consultation : that therfore he estemed the whole dioces off London / or Prouince off Canterbury where there are many thowsand parishes / might conueniently grow into one particular bodie / to be gouerned off one Pastor . Truly this is but kolde reasoning . Where I charged him with vnfaithefull dealing , for leauing owt that wvich Caluin noteth ( that the office off Archbis . and Patriarck was rarely vsed ) to couer his vnfaithfullnes : he alledgeth the later edition , which hathe not that sentence . Which is partly answered a a in Diui. 43. pag. 391. before : but ad this also that euen the noted booke which he followed / had thus muche off that sentence / Althowghe it may not be passed by in this disputation . There wanted onely this ( it was very rarely vsed ) and that throwghe the printers fault : considering that withowt yt there is no sence / nor knot with that before or after . Therfore if there had bene any loue of the trwthe in hym : meeting with suche a gap / he would haue sowght to haue made yt vpp in the later edition . His shift ( Calu referrethe that to the patriarcke , and not to the Archbishop / because ther was smale cause off exercising his authoritie : is onely said / and in deede contrary to thanthors wordes and meaning . Wordes / for that giuing that note off his disputation there , which is bothe off the Archbishop / and Patriarke : yt muste follow by all likelihoode / that the note also is of them bothe . Against his meaning manifestly : for he placing both their offices / in propounding matters vnto the Synodes / which for their hardnes could not be ended of few : and gyuing them nothing to doo more then their fellowes / but that : it muste follow that the oftenest Synodes wherin the archbishop was president / being rare / and but twise a yeare : his office also was off very rare vse . Wherby appeareth that Caluins minde was to shew / that the archbishops and Patriarches office / endured onely but the time off the Synode : which ended / he had no autoritie but in commen with other bishops / vntill the next synode . So that althowgh they were not chosen at euery action : yet Caluins iudgement standeth / that both those offices were but off rare vse .

The D. onely trifleth in Hemingius . For we affirme degrees Diuis 72. pag. 419. off ministrie off the word / graunt also that there were Patriarches / but denie them to haue bene immediatly after the Apostles : which Hemingius doth not ( as he vntruly saith ) affirme . That that church abolishing the Patriarch and Archbishop kept the distinction betwene the bishop / an other ministers off the word / which the church browght in / is confessed : but that it owght not so to be is before declared : althowgh the bishops there in respect off the height off ours / are but dwarfes . His answer to that Hemingius saith / that S. Luke 22. putteth a difference betwene the office off a Magistrat , and ministers , and that dominion is altogether taken away from these : is very fonde . His reason owt off the Hebr. is before answered : so that his vnfaithfull dealing in Hemingius remaineth . Yf there be no circunstance in M Fox alledged Diuis. 73. pag. 422. by the D. which gyue further answer : I stand to that before made / and refer it to the readers iudgement : especially seing to that alledged / where M. Fox flatly condemneth the degrees off primates , metropolitanes , and archbishops as ambicious , the D. can not answer . In saying he went about to corrupt him Maister Fox . p. 96 with his praise , I doo M. Fox no iniurie : yt being no fault to be assaulted / but to be ouercome , Whether I doo the D. any let the reader iudge .

The maintenance of the reply to the Bishop off Salisb . answer towching certein Articles against the D. Chap. 4. Diuis. 1. pag. 422.

THat the Bishop is directly against the D. in affirming that there be no Apostles , Euangelistes , or Prophetes , pag. 424. ys manifest . his shift wherewith he would accord him self with the bishop : is is before bewraied . That the taking away off the Apostels / Prophetes / and Euangelistes / hindreth In Tra. 3. pag. 229. not the perfect nomber off preaching ministers hath bene declared : beside that yt is grosse to say that the diuision is not perfect because certein partes of it are not now extant : as if the law of deuiding extended not it self to thinges both past / and to come . He that parteth the church into that before : and vnder the Gospell : doth he therfore make an euill particion / because there is now no church before the Gospell / that is / vnder or before the law ? Here the D. leaueth Diuis . 3. Pag. 424. the bishop to his owne defense / towching that he affirmed a bishop not conteined in the place to the Ephes. The diuision there being giuen ( as hath bene saied ) off those ministers onely which with gouernement handle the word : both here / and in the fift diuision the D. doth but trifle in the examples off the elder and deacon : seing we hould / and will ( God willing ) shewe them not to haue to doo with the word . Wher hereuppon he woulde bring in his archbishop , and archdeacon : yt is but repetition off that a a in di . 18. 19. pag. 309. &c. before / where he hath answer . Yf there be a preaching elder , not conteined vnder a Pastor : seing he maketh a Pastor . and Doctor all one ( onles he fly to his phansie off Apostles / &c. ) there is by his saying a preaching ministerie / not tawght in the scripture . If there be / let him shew it .

Where I gaue the Catechising vnto the Pastor : I will haue it ment where there is no Doctor : otherwise I haue in the second Diuis. 4. pag. 425. edition amended that / assigning yt as more proper to the D. So that the Doctor being instituted to the Ephes. he whom they called Catechist / which tawght the groundes off religion / ys likewise : albeit S. Pa. calleth al manner of preaching Cathechising . Gal. 6. 6. That publike reading in the church is as solemne a matter as Catechising the youth , is a peece off the former phrensie ( reading is as good as preaching ) already confuted . That a reader hath bene counted necessarie is saied withowt proof : and if it were / it was falsly counted : there being no necessarie ministrie not specified in the scripture . And when they were first / notwithstanding them / the church ministrie was ( as hath bene shewed ) deuided into bishops / elders / and deacons : so that they came not then so much as into account of the ministries . Yf they be conuenient at any time : that there is scripture to warrant them / euen as the Sexten that kept the church dore key hath bene * * In the 1. Tract. shewed . That the archbishops , archdeacons , and our bishops haue no succour by this / being supposed the principalest ministeries / and therfore such as owght to haue bene commaunded : hath bene likewise disputed / where thes colewortes are answered . In this Tract. c. 1. That the Deaconship as I take yt is no gouernement , but a simple seruice , is idly alledged / contrary to nothing here set downe . Yt may seeme against that alledged before / where I comprehend it under the ministers which gouerne onely : which I did not to set it in 36. din. pag. 816. in the same kinde off gouernement with the elders / but for that yt ordering the church money / and ouerseing the poore / might in a generall signification be so called .

If the D. can shew one lettre / that I euer wrote or spake / that the place to the Ephes. conteineth all thinges necessarie for the church : Diuis. 6. pag. 426. then this that he writeth may haue place . If not : then he is vnworthy to receiue answer / seing he hath bene gyuen to vnderstand / how far we extend that place . Therefore whether there were Publike churches , Pulpits , Schooles , vniuersities in Christian congregations , perteineth not to the question / althowgh it hath partly / and might further be shewed : onely I gyue the reader warning that Iudg. ● . off those saied to handle the pen , whilest I gaue to much credit to translations / was not so fitly alledged / to proue vniuersities . The three next diuis . are idle repetitions / before answered . Where I shewed that one high priest was ordeined ouer the Iewes , onely that he might represent our S. Christ , cheif off Diuis. 10. pag. 428. the whole church : the D. answereth / he was also for policie , and gouernement . His reason ( our Sauiour Christ came not to take away ecclesiasticall policie ) ●s vaine : as thowgh there could be no ecclesiasticall policie / onles one minister were ruler ouer a whole nation . After he citeth Caluin in the same faithe he is wont . For his wordes ( no reason compelleth to extend that to the whole world profitable in one nation ) are onely vnderstanded off that gouernement in Iury before our Sau. Christes coming . which ys manifest in that he saith / that example owght not to be followed , considering it was doon in respect that the high priest was a Instit. lib. 4. ca 6. s● . 2. figure off our Sauiour Christ , and the priesthood being translated that right is likewise . And after : that example off the priestes gouernement ouer the whole nation / was but for a time . ibid. se . 3.

That the pressing off the example off the high priest amongest the Iewes , draweth a Pope : I leaue to be considered off that before written : especially seing the high priest was not onely gouernour off the Iewes / when they were pa●ed in the land in 31. diu . pag. 380 Act. 2. 4. off Canaan : but euen then also when ( as it is knowen ) they were scattered thorowgh owt all nations in the world . For as S. Luke saith it to haue bene / immediatly after the ascension off our Sau. Christ : so was it many yeares before his coming into the world . So that he which will frame an Archbishop by that example / establisheth the Ecclesiasticall charge off one / ouer those which were scattered thorowghowt all the corners off the earth . It would be also obserued / how here the D plaieth on both handes . For when we reason sometime onely off the proportion off the law to the gospell / other sometime off the perpetuall law off God : we receiue answer that we are Iewish ennemies to the libertie of the church . But where there is any thing vnder the law / coming within a furlong off his cawse : he gripeth it for gospellike / and which owght to be folowed . I see / that M. Nowel thincketh a Metro poltane may be ouer a Christian prouince , as the high priest was ouer the Iwes : wherin / I can be but sory that all the Godly learned / are not off one mind . As for Hyperius , he seemeth to reason vpon a supposition : that yf the example off the gouernement off the high priest vnder the law should be folowed ( which he before denied ) : that then a man might conclude an Archbishop ouer a Prouince / but not a Pope ouer the whole churche . This to be his meaning I thinck the D. him selfe will accord me : els let him tel me what to Hypperili . 3 meth Thed . answer to him / that saith : that yt is not red in the scripture / that euer any off the Apostels / toke vnto him self autority or primacy ouer thother Apostels / but that a most perfect equality is shewed to haue bene in all : that Christ did prescribe them equall offices in all thinges : that that manner of dominion which was not in th appostles Hypperius 4 lib. de ratione stud . Theolog. time owght not to haue bene admitted in the ages which followed . Likewise what he will answer to him / which condemneth as new found orders Archdeacons Archelders and vicares . Wherof the 2. first haue ( as I haueshewed ) better testimonie of their auncientie then the Archbishop : and are / yf not off the same birth / yet off the same kinde that he .

Where I shew the titles of cheif off the Synagoge , of the Diuis. 11. pag. 429. Sanctuarie , of the hows of god , to make directly against him , considering that particular churches are now in steed off them , and therfore there owght to be such not in euery Prouince or dioces but in euery particular congregation : the D. as amazed speaketh he can not tell what . First / that the Iewes had particular Synagoges , as we particular congregations , and that I haue confessed that before . As if I had any where denied it : or had not euen here in effect affirmed it : or it helped him for answer / which is the ruine off his cause . For their Synagoges being the same that our particular churches / in euery one off them being not one / but many princes : the vrging off that example / bringeth diuers cheif gouernours / or archbishops in euery particular church . Then he saith / one Christian commen wealth is but one church , which is vntrue . For first althowgh the church be in a Christian commen wealth : yet nether is the commen wealth the church / nor the church the commen weaith as shall appeare . Besides / I haue shewed that the scripture ( off whose manner off speach the question is ) vseth not to call a Prouince / or dioces / a church : but ether the whole vniuersall / or els a particular congregation . Thirdly if it were so / yet the answer is insufficient . For if the name off the howse off God / were commen as well to a church in a Prouince / as in a particular congregation : yet what right hath he to pull the ecclesiasticall priesthood more to his prouinciall / then to our particular church ? He saith / the superioritie amongest the priestes : and Leuites , is by the ciuill law of Moses . Which declareth him rauished off all iudgement : it being manifest that they were ether Ceremoniall / or Ecclesiasticall lawes / wherwith the Lord disposed of the degrees of the ministerie : wherof the Ceremoniall being abolished / and therfore the chieftie off one priest ouer all / we willingly reteine the ecclesiasticall .

Where to that alledged off Princes off the families off Leuites , I replied that the Lord woulde by those titles as by liuely pictures , imprint in the Iwes vnderstanding the chieftie off our S. Christ : he answereth / that maketh nothing against their offices . Yes : for that those that would conclude therof / one chief / now amongest the ministers in a Prouince / are therby put to silence . Where he addeth / so the estate off a Prince ouer a land should be abolished : be is friuolous / considering that that gouernement / hath other staies off the ordinance off God . Where that chieftie amongest the ministers / hath nothing but that it was ceremoniall . And if my answer like him not he shall haue the bishops / as litle for his aduantage which saith : The Prince of the families doth not signifie In 4. Art. Diui. 31. any gouernour , or one endued with power , but onely the firste and best man off the companie . He complaineth that the Bishop speaking off the name , I driue it to the office . If he had bene awake he should haue perceiued / that the same reason I assigned why there was primacie in the ministrie off the law / vnmeet for ours : serueth also to shew why they might haue the title off Princes / which ours may not . For being the counseil of God / in that superioritie to peint forth the chieftie off our Sauiour Christ : it was moste conuenient that that shoulde be also written in the names .

Where I shewed the distribution off the Leuites offices , Diuis . 12. Pag. 430. not made off Dauid , but by expresse commaundement off God : he saith the Bishop hath answered , that such negatiue argumentes are but weake . So hee bringeth him in answering this reason after his in tract. 1. di. 1. p. 77 death : for in his life it was not propounded . Howbeit I haue shewed how the argument holdeth : and that the D. shift / is Hardinges against the bishop / confuted also by the bishop . Nether did the bishop condemne here simply negatiue reasons / but that negatiue which supposed there owght to be no name of archbishop / because there was none vnder the law : which he might worthely . For I shewed that we meane nothing lesse / then to conclude that / of the precise gouernement off the churche vnder the law . Nether is mine an argument off one example but of comparison . For if Dauid a figure off our S. Christ / a man after Gods owne hart / a Prophet / would not meddle with altering any thing in the ministries / withowt Gods word : what man is he that shall dare doo yt / withowt the same warrant ? By the Printers small ouersight / in putting 1. for 2. the D. hath stumbled vpon a notable , place that Iosaphat apointed Leuites , &c. for deciding the Lordes causes not onely in Ierusalem , but for the whole countrey , and made Amaries the priest chief ouer them : yet no commaundement red of , so to doo . Which is vntrw . For Iosaphat did nothing but commaunded off the Lord by a a Deut. 17 8. &c. Moses ; that there be in Ierusalem an Ecclesiasticall Senate wherof the high priest should be chief vnto which they should resort in difficult cases / not able to be voided at home . For otherwise b b 2. Chro. 19 : 5. there was a Senate erected by Iosaphat in euery strong cytie off Iury. .

c c Diui. 13. Pag. 430. The Iewes church wanted nothing to that perfection , wherin the Lord would haue it then , and many thinges were vndecided by the expresse word off God : be friendes / and doo well agree . For both the perfection of yt then / as ours now / standeth : if thinges constant defined vpon / there be also generall rules left in his word / wherby thinges variable by circumstances / may be compassed . d d Diui. 14. pag. 431. In the next reason / for causes there assigned / I will procede no further / but leaue it onely to the readers iudgement : e e Diuis. 15. pag. 432. likewise whether I haue shewed / that there were vniuersities amongest Gods people / before our S. Christes time : and whether the D. if he had wherewithall / woulde not contrarie it . That Schooles are ciuill in heathenish commen wealthes , and Ecclesiasticall in Christian : is poore diuinity . for so a Schoolemaster teaching Terence / or Professor reading Aristotle is become an Ecclesiasticall officer : which hath nether ecclesiasticall election / not ordinacion / and is often chosen onely of him that founded the Schoole . Yea euery one that reacheth to play on instrumentes / wherby men may be apter to sing the lordes praises : is one off the D. Eeclesiasticall officers . His reason ( schooles are like the first nources of the true knowledge off God ) ys not good . For beside that the Fathers howse is the first nource / not the schoole : by this reason the Father off the howshold that nourtereth his sonnes / yea the mother that bringeth vp her dawghters in the feare off God / shoulde be ecclesiasticall officers : which are onely oeconomicall / or house gouernours . a a Diui. 16. pag. 432. in Tract : 3. cap. 3. That bishops can not come in place off th apostles / seing they were together with the Apostles : is vnanswered . That the D. alledgeth off Apostles being bishops : is ᵇ before answered / althowgh it be nothing to purpose . for to haue confuted the replie / he shoulde haue shewed that all bishops are Apostles : where his places be / to proue Apostles bishops . For it followeth not if all Apostles were bishops / that all bishops should be Apostles .

Where I shew that Archbishops could not come in place off Apostles , if they were ( as Erasmus supposeth ) in their time ; Diuis. 17. 433. because they should so preuent the time , not wayting for the Apostels death : he answereth / where the apostels could not be them selues , there they appointed other : which is fond . For how followeth / it / that because they appointed others where they could not be them selues / therfore they appointed archbishops ? As if they might not appoint Euangelistes : or in euery particular church a Bishop . Off Bishops appointed by the Apostles / to conclude Archbis I haue a a in 10. d. pag. 304. shewed how sikly it is : likewise how that bishops being the Apostles b b in 3. di-pag . 231. successours / is to be vnderstanded . c c Diui. 18. pag. 433. Against my reasons / that there is more libertie in instituting thinges in the commen wealth : here is nothing but bare denials . In answering generally off all offices in the commen wealth / a man not vtterly forsaken off his iudgement / muste needes know that I had answered the example off Saul . d d Diui. 19. pag. 434. The answer to Chrysostome , ys made e e in di . 55. pag. 339. & 66. 413 before . Where I shew that Titus presidentship in ordination off bishops , implieth not perpetuall gouernement , if it did , yet not to helpe the archbishop . yt is the D. part to shew / that iudgement and gouernement be all one , seing he imagineth it a staffe off his cawse . But the reader may see / that allthowgh the D. kepe open shop still : yet his wares are vttered long sythens . For I besech yow in this defense off the bishops answer / besides his owne colewortes / and bare repeticion off the Bishops reasons / with some yeas / and naes : what hath he worthy the inuention of the meanest ? To the next diuis . Further then I haue I will not answer : the next also I leaue to the readers iudgement .

THe Councell off Antioch / repeted here with the commentary is answered . Where I shew no neede with vs of archbishops , CAP. V. Diuis. 2. pag. 436. considering that the cause why they were ordeined ( to call Synodes and propound the cawses to be handled in them ) is ceassed with vs ▪ the D. in prouing that Emperours called generall Councells , shooteth fayre / but cometh nothing nere the mark . For althowgh some prouinciall Councells were called by the Emperour : yet yt is manifest both by the Councell of Nice and by this I alledged / Cap 5. Can. 20. ( that decreed there should be 2. prouinciall Councels euery yeare / wherin the Metropolitan should giue warning to the rest / that the bishops might not hould a councell withowt his knowledge ) that the Metropolitan with the bishops aduise / might hould a Prouinciall Councell . It was doen I graunt / by consent / and sometime by expresse confirmacion off the Godly Princes : as in other thinges perteining to the ministery their autoritie assisted / when men refused to come to the bishops / who were not able to compell them : but the order off it was with the Bishops . This althowgh it were not in the 9. canon , yet when the D. knew it was in that councell ( as appeareth by his precise denying off it to be in that canon , where otherwise he would haue saied in that Councell ) : it appeareth that he vseth lesse synceritie in thes holy matters / then the Heathen ●n their prophane . For Alexander counseilled Plutarch : in his life 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . to set vpon Darius in the night / answered that he would not steale the victorie : but the D. concealeth from his reader / euen that which he knew my answer must needes discouer .

Where he saith / our metropolitan calleth Synodes , althowgh not prouinciall , and propoundeth the matters : first is nothing to the purpose . for calling onely diocesan Synodes / he doth nothing which a simple bishop may not aswell as he ▪ and therfore no cause why / there should be an archbishop in this respect . Secondly / all know that those Synodes he speaketh off / are houlden for the moste pate by deputies at his appointement . So / that which the D. vtterly condemneth in the Discipline we propounde / touching the chusing off a president euery Synod / is doen here / and that at the plrasure off one man / not by consente off the mynisters : yea by appointement off one for the moste parte no Ecclesiasticall person / in matters perteining to the ministrie . Thirdly / I would know by what right / the archbishop may call his diocesan Synodes ▪ yf by Ecclesiasticall / then why not also the Prouinciall ? considering that they are of one kinde / ether both Ecclesiasticall / or both cyuill . Yf he do yt by ciuill autoritie : why doth he not aswel waite for the magistrates commandement in one / as in the other ? He saith / the archishops office consisting in sondry other thinges besides calling Synodes , propounding matters , ouerseing the limites : owght not to ceasse althowgh he doo none off these . Yt being manifeste that these were the cheife cawses / vnder pretence wheroff he was browght in / and especially to th end that controuersies / and contentions amongest the mynistrie / by Synodes called / and ordered by him / might he ended : yt must follow that if wee may spare him for these / we may easely be with owt him for the rest : and so this is not for the amendement / but for the ouerthrow off his surisoiction . Because wee agree in the matter / and I haue before shewed that Tract. 4. Diuis. 2. pag. 237. the metropolitanes were appointed to ouersee that none passed his boundes : I omit the iniury he dothe in supposing that I send him to the ninth Canon for that matter / when as the word there by all indifferency / owght rather to be referred to the councell in the text / then to the canon in the margent .

Where I say that this ouersight off limites / may be withowt an archbishop : he sayth / yt may be beste by him : whereoff let the reader vpon the former allegations off both Sydes / iudge . where he affirmeth yt no good argument againste the archbishop , that he doth not kepe the olde Canons owt off vse with vs : seing our archbishop houldeth off those in times past / and hath for his cheifest defense that there where archbishops in times paste : all see / if there be not the same causes off them now that were then / how at the least this hould is throwne downe . Where I shew that our archbishop in giuing licences to preach in a dousen dioceses at the leaste breaketh the same order for the keping wheroff he was ordeined : he answereth / yt is profitable . Where beside the vntruth a a Tractat. 3. & 4. before shewed / he condemneth that order off the Councell off Constantinople / that b b Soc. 5. li ●● 8. decreed against that wandring : and ouerthroweth one off the cawses wheruppon the metropolitans office standeth . c c Diuis . 3. ●37 . That / parte off the difference of the metropolitan from other bishops , rose off the commoditie off the citie , and for that yt was honoured with the Emperours courte : is manifest . by the encrease and decrease / lifting vp and throwing downe off the authoritie off the Patriarch all seates . That the Emperour might make the metropolitan seate which he would , I well vnderstood , seing I set it downe d d Diui 20. pag. 3●2 . before : but the question to / where yt is meetest the Archbishop should be / if there must be one . And my reason was / forsomuche as the place moste fyttest / hath well and happely wanted him : therfore our churche may be well without him . His trifling in the two translations / argueth that to fill vp / he careth not if his reader peele strawes : for nothing ●ether off them / is againste that I setdowne .

The cauil against my order / becawse I come from the councel of Antioche backe to Cyprian : is too simple . For yt is not ( as his ) for one Diuis 4. pag 438. matter / but for diuers ; beside that / I reprehended him for that yt skilleth much to obserue the order off times / when question was off the time / and antiquitie of th archbishop / Whether Cyprians wordes do flatly forbid any one bishop to haue autoritie ouer an other / muche les ouer all : I leaue yt be iudged off that e e 3. ca. off this tra . before . * * 2. c. 2. tr . likewise how honeste an exception yt is againste this sentence / that yt was spoken in a Councell where an error was decreed : also in f f 2 ca off this treatise . what sense I called Cyprian metropolitan : further how vntrwe yt is that g g 3. ca. off this treatise . he which denieth the autoritie of one bishop ouer an other , exempteth the ministers either from cyuill , or ecclesiasticall subiection , or punishement . Lastly / what a h h 2. Tract. 6. cap. cauil yt is / that when the correction of the disorders in the ministrie is gyuen to the cyuill magistrat , the prince therby is ouercharged . Now if the reader finde vpon the discourse before / that the churche well gouerned in Cyprians time / had no archbishop nor metrapolitane that had autoritie ouer others / when there was moste neede / considering there was then no christian bishops : Then yt is manifeste / that there is now les cawse / when wee haue a Christian magistrate : which alledged here by me / the D. him selfe ( althowgh he had good will to bite at ) durst not come neere .

His cauill that I alledged this canon , falsely attributed vnto the Diuis. 5. pag. 439. Apostels , is answered : beside that I i i 2. Tract. shew that yt being falsely assigned to them / is notwithstanding the true canon off the Councell off Antioche . The Canon is as I haue alledged / nothing nether added nor diminished , which might disaduantage the D. cause any ●ote . whether the bishop according to that canon / may doo that which apperteineth vnto his owne parish without the archbishop : whether the archishop taketh matters owt off their handes / concludeth them not making the bishops prime / contrary to the tenure off that canon ( which the D. denieth ) . I leaue to the readers iudgement / his especially which hath seene the marchandise / and trafique off his courtes . And it may partly appeare by the boke off the 7● . archbishops / where Canterbury is made the head off all our churches , all bishops sworne to canonicall obedience off that archbishop and defense off all Priuiledges and liberties of that seate ▪ Where the bishop off London is his deane to cal synodes , to publishe his decrees , to make retourne off th execution : Winchester his Chauncelour , Lincolne his vice chancelour , Salisburie his chanter , Worcester his chaplaine , Rochester his cros bearer when that bagage was . Wher his autoritie is said to haue no certeine boundes but almost as him selfe listeth with other such archbishoplicke / and vnministerlike loftines / reckened / and earnestly auouched / and yet notwithstanding ( as he saith ) sparingly touched : to th end belike that it might haue an easyer defense . And if the lord bishops are his vassa●e● the poore ministers what place shall they haue ?

His repetitions I will not touch . The autoritie out off the Diuis. 6. pag. 440 counterfaicte Higinus , as I noted him / ( that the metropolitan should condemne no bishop before the matter heard , and discussed by the bishops of the Prouince ) maketh for vs more then yf yt had bene out off the true Higinus : considering that the archbishop in the counterfaicte Higinus time / being growen much our of fashion / was yet girded in les roume then ours . The like 87. cap. restreincte off his autoritie was in the Africane Councell . How fond the D. answer is / that our archbishop putteth none out withowt due proof , is manifest : considering that the greatest monarche that euer was / hath no further autoritie to condemne / then vpon dew proof . likewise what daliance yt is / that he doth nothing but by consent in 2. Tra. Diuis. 1. pag. 170. of al the realme , and therfore off the bishops : is before declared .

a a Diuis. 7. pag. 440. Where missing the nomber off the Canon / I alledged out off the Councell off Antioch / that the metropolitan had not so much as the casting voice , when the bishops were equally deuided : he answereth / there is no mention off equalitie off voices , as thowgh he were ignorant / that matters in Councells / passed by the more parte off voices . Forsomuch therefore as the Councell vppon the diuision off the bishops iudgementes / willeth that other should be called : yt is to be estemed that that was / because the bishops were equally parted . Where he saith / therby a metropolitan had autority ouer moe prouinces then one , yt foloweth not . For beside that the canon is of all metropolitans / so that whatsoeuer any off them might doo in an others precincte / that the other might doe in his : by this accounte the elders / yea the Deacons had autoritie ouer the bishops : considering that they accused / might call other Councel . 3. earth . cap. 8. bishops than their owne . Where he saieh / th autoritie of our metropolitan and bishops , is nothing increased but decreased , forsomuch as nether he nor all the bishops can depriue a bishop withowt the consent of the Prince , yt is not to purpose / seing al the bishops in the world may not / nor euer could off right remoue a bishop by force / if the Prince would kepe him in . Our question is of the ecclesiasticall sentence of deposicion . And if he meane that a bishop heretike / schismatike / or corrupte in manners / may not be proceded againste by an ecclesiasticall sentence off deposition / yea off excommunication ( yf the case require ) onles the Prince will consente : beside that his endeuour off / flattery is to manifeste : his meaning is to cut out the archbishop so / that he shall doo nether more nor les then will agree with his ease / and wherby he may shifte the Crosse from his shoulders . For all know that Christian princes may be / and sometimes are drawne to fauour those / whose pastorall gouernement can not be but harmefull vnto the churche : in which case the Ecclesiasticall censures owght not to sleepe / to th end that allthowghe he can not be remoued : yet the churche after he be descried / and condemned for such as he is / may flie from him . That the bishop may excommunicate an elder , belongeth to an other tractate : that he may depose an elder , is vntrw : and hath appeared in that the councell off Carthage decreed / that an elder accused by 3. Conc. cap. 8. his bishop , might cal 6. other bishops , and the deacon three : and likewise may by an other / which decreed that being condemned Council . Sard. c. 17 off his bishop ether by right or wronge , he might appeale vnto other bishops . Beside that / I haue shewed that he might heare no cause withowt his clergie : therfore those condemnations by the bishop / must be vnderstanded if he be duly / and according to the order prescribed condemned . He abuseth also his reader / in that he would proue the bishops autoritie greater / because it was forbidden to those put out by him , to goe to the Emperour . Considering that the same canon gyueth them remedy againste the bishop in a greater assembly : yea euen againste a whole Synode in a more generall then it .

Whether the 4. Firste principal differences / betwene the bishops in times paste and oures now / be trwe , let the reader iudge Diuis. 8. pag. 441. off that hath bene alledged . Likewise off the fift / vpon that which hath and shall be : against which he hath nothing but repetitions . Also whether the D knoweth any thing off order , that denieth this to be the place off mentioning the excommunication , in such sorte as I did . b b Diuis. 9. pag. 442. That alledged owt off the Councell of Hispalis / touching that the elder owght not to preach in the bishop presence : is in a c c Councel Neocaesar . Councell supposed more auncient then the firste Nicene / likewise yt was obserued in the Africane churches in d d Possido . in vita August . Augustines time . And that yt endured vntil the yeare off the Lord 659. when there were ●rosse corruptions , tendeth to further condemnation off our Bishops / further owt of fashion in that behalfe / then those degenerat ones . and if this Councell be not to be alledged for the corruptions , then how cometh yt / that Volufianus in the year ●65 / a bishop off a corrupter estate / ( whose masse is grosser / then that off this Councel ) is made so godly a man ? yt is well knowne / that later Councels then this / and therefore ( for the most part ) corrupter : are cited off the godly learned / as testimonial traces of the Syncerity in purer times . That the elder by this canon , willed off the bishop myght preach in his presence , is vntrw : onely yt is said / that with the bishops commaundement he might giue absolution to the penitent / which was then ( as now with vs ) an other thing from preaching . That ther hath bene no time wherin there haue bene moe preaching bishops , then now with vs : onles all be preachers / is vntrw . seing an vnpreaching bishop was wonte ( as M. Cal. proueth Instit. 4. l. ca. 4. 3 se . ( to be a monster / and cried owt on in very corrupt times . Yf our bishops be compared with the Popishe in this poincte : they may be thowght dutifull . but diuers compared with bishops off auncient time / may well be accounted domb . Considering their often preaching / the traces wheroff are to be seen diuersly : namely in the Councell off Ments / before by me alledged . Wherunto serueth M. Hoopers saying / that the churche at the beginning vpon the eight con ▪ maund . had suche bishops , as did preache many godly Sermons in les time , then our bishops horses be a brideling .

Yf the rare preaching off some / be but Mens faulte and not the offices : then our Archbishops whether off synistre fauour or as gyltie them selues / play their partes euil . Considering that diuers faulte openly in this euen the cheif pointe off their office / and haue had for any thing I haue heard / good peniworthes off yt . Where still appeareth how daungerous yt is to the churche / to lay such weight off the churches welfare in one man . In the next diuis . let the reader iudge how vntrw yt is / that there were bishops off 100. churches in the Apostels times . the two next are answered . Whether thes deuised degrees / were a a in the praef. to the 3. ca. of this tr . steppes for the Pope to clime vp , let yt be iudged off that alledged : and namely off that in M. b b vpon Phil. ca. 1. Beza / whose iudgement is the same with myne here . how this doth not impeache the holy doctrine of the Sonn off God , confirmed in the Nycene Conncell : I haue c c 2. cap. off this tra . Diuis . 15. pag 445. Euse . li. 1. de vit. Const . shewed That I doo confesse heere the kinde of gouernement by elders to haue ceassed , or that one Bishop was ouer a whole diocese , before the councell off Nice : ys vtterly vntrue . The next let the reader likewise iudge .

Where he saith I repeate Basile the poore metropolitan , and Theodoret the pore bishop for want off others , let him know that this was the estate of the most apparant bishops at the Nicene councell / whom th emperour made so much off touching their apparel vile , vile to loke to : of a a Athana . Apol. 2. Athanasius / which being metropolitane was poore : off b b Costerius in the life off Ambro. Ambrose which had no suyt of men after him / and which was in his houshould stuf / and reuenewe / poore : of the bishōp off c c Ieron ad Rusticum Monach. Th●● lose / which was poore . Yea the richest by the churche / and by the churche / beste prouided for : were content with that wherof they might honestly / and soberly lyue . And where an other off the D. refuges is / that they might haue bene riche : yt is trew they with their competent houshoulde / owght to be honestly prouided for / leste the care ouer the flock shoulde be drawne to thinges off this life . I graunte also that they may be riche : but I denie that they owghte to growe riche by the ministrie . yt owght to suffice them as d d 1. Cor. 10 the Apostle saith to liue off the gospell , not e e Ier. vpon Titus . Ier ad Oceanum . to riot , not to haue Turrian lordly estate , not to be rich by yt : as yt is both expounded and confirmed off Ierom.

f f Di. 16. 17 pag. 446. Where I shewed owt off the auncient g g 4. earth . 14. 15. ca. Tyron c. 5 Councells / that the bishops should haue a litle house nere the churche , their houshould stuf after the common sorte , table , and diet poore , not gyue them selues to feasting , get their estimacion by good conuersation : he answereth one of the councels decreed that the clerckes should get their lyuing by some occupation , not meete for our daies But it decreed not that the bishops / or ministers of the word should doo so / but onely Clerkes : in which number were readers / dorekepers / acolouthes / exercistes and other such / which hauing light charges in the churche / were fashioned in the Bishops howse to the ministrie . These hauing a great part off their lyuing ( as shall appeare ) off that appointed for the bishops howse : were commaunded to get the reste with their handes at such times / as were nether hinderance vnto their office / nor their further aduauncement in learning : as it is to be seene in those Canons . Now if they afters dinners and suppers or others tymes wherin they nether executed office nor were so fyt to studie / occupied them selues in some arte / werby they gained parte off their liuing / and those Clerckships were needfull : I see no great inconuenience in that order . At the lest in the time and countrie in which the D. would lurke : ther is no difference . If there had bene any material : he owght to haue shewed yt . for what cause can he assigne why our bishops should liue more lordly then those ? both liuing in the peace and welth off the church / and vnder Christian magistrates . They sowing also more liberally then ours / why should they reape more scantly ? especially seing diuers off their Countries were better hable to fournishè them off that riot then ours is .

Where also he would make men beleue / that they are come to this excesse by Christian princes liberalitie , the trewthe is otherwise . For they to whome they succeded in this princely estat : came to this wealth by church robbery . Seinge yt is easy to proue / by diuers aswell giftes off the Emperours an others / as by statutes and prerogatiues ( made in fauour off the church ) : that yt was very riche in time off those bishops . Therfore that he alledgeth otherwhere for the continuance off these large reuenewes to one bishop , lest Pag. 471 . our bishops ( as some in Augustins time ) shoulde take occasion of pillag●● is absurd . Yt is highe time that he were ( to speake no greuous lier ) vnbishoped : which will take occasion off pillage / hauing to liue on a hundreth pound a yeare . And as yt is obscrued that the In the booke intituled the Discipline , &c. church goods were committed vnto the bishops truste / to this ende that he taking so muche as would honestly mainteine him / should bestow the reste vpon diuers other church necessities : so the same appeareth / in that it was a a 4. conc . Cart. c. 32 Sozom. lib. 3. c. 9. Athanas . 2. Apol. ordeined / that the bishop should vse the church goodes as thinges gyuen to him to kepe , and not as his owne . Also by the examples off Athanasius and Augustine : wher off for the first falsly accused of the turning away off the corne gyuen to the church vnto his owne vse : was answered by the Councell assembled at the Alexandria / that he had nothing but the trauaile in disposing off yt . The b b August . Epist . ●0 . other shewing how the Donatists had not onely their own when they retourned vnto the church / but also off the church goods : addeth that the church goods were both theirs and his , seing he was poore as wel they . But if ( saith he ) we possesse priuatly as muthe as may suffice vs , then the church goods are none of ours , but the poores : off which goods wee haue the ordering , and doo not chalenge them as proper vnto vs , which is a damnable abuse ,

Further the bishops in times paste for that portion alowed vnto them / kepte not onely them selues and their owne houshoulde : but nourished in their houses / and at their tables / the foorsaid Clerkes : as appeareth in a a Possido . invit . Au. Augustines example / with whom they were at one table / in one howse / and off the same charges . I leaue the testimonie of the b b Roma . cap. ▪ 3. Councell : that ( of the churches goods deuided into 4. partes ) gyueth one of them vnto the bishop and his brethern . Which althowgh yt be corrupt / and not of the auncientie pretende : dyet in a case not in question / and which hath confirmacion off the former times / I might a great deale better vse then the D. hath donne his counterfaictes . The testimonie off M. c c vpon the eight commaund . Hooper shall suffise : who saith that the bishops houshould was the schole or treasurehouse off good ministers , to serue the word off God , and administration off Sacraments . Thus appeareth that the difference betwene our bishops / and them in times past / is not as is pretended / in that the churches were then poore , and now riche : but partly in that the goods which serued before for diuers necessary Vses off the churche / serue now to the lording and vnnecessary statelines off one . Partly also in that those bishops hauing a colledg off scholers in their howses / which were the seed and store off the ministrie / nourrished them at the same trencher with them : ours ( the Clerkes or scholers being thrust out ) deuoure al them selues .

And that it is not as ( he saith ) in the circumstance of time and countrie , Euen as he hath heard godly men in in times paste / forbidding this stately pompe and wealth off bishops in other ages : so he might haue red yt forbidden of those of our age . a a Cal. inst. 4. lib ca. ● . sect. 17. M. Caluin writeth thus : how the bishops in times paste rioted not in superfluous wealth : that one voice of the Synod off Aquileia . Where Ambrose was president ( the pouertie of the lords mynisters is glorious ) doth sufficiently declare . Verely the bishops had then riches , wherwith they might haue made the church to haue a Sightly porte : yf they had thowght that that had bene their trwe ornament . But when they knewe that nothing is more contrary to the office of a pastor , then to shine and swell in dayintie fare , costly apparel , many seruantes , princely palaces : they folowed and embraced humilitie and modestie , yea pouertie yt selfe , which Christ consecrated amongeste his ministers . And after : was yt meete that they should folow the magnificence off Princes in the number off waiting men , brauerie of houses , costlines of fare and apparel : whose life owght to haue bene a singular example off frugalitie , modestie , continencie and humilitie ? how muche did this abhor from their office : whom the eternall decre off God forbiddeth to desire fylthy lucre , and to be content with a simple kind off liuing : alledging to that purpose the canons off the Carthage Councel / which I haue set downe : and ther to calling the bishops of these times / which notwithstanding the D. saith were for those times .

He might also haue red off the godly learned with vs : which condemne yt flatly / in our both countrie / and age . For the knowledge wheroff : let the reader resorte vnto the seuenth Article off Maister a a M. Fox in the boke off M. Tindal , &c. Barnes . Likewise to that b b Vpon the 8. commaund . Maister Hooper saith that the fourth parte of the bishoprike were enowgh for the bishop : and that the magistrates which suffre suche abuse off those goodes be culpable off the fault . Further / to that an c c M. Elm. other calleth them to the tenth parte off their bishopricke : when he biddeth them come downe from their thowsandes , and take them to their hundredes . And if it be so as M. Hooper saith : yt ys so farre from that this aboundance is commodious vnto the common wealth , and honour to Prince ( as he d d 473. other where saith ) that it draweth the wrath of God vpon the Prince / and consequently vpon the common wealth . Beside that / the D. can shewe no one pointe wherin yt is honorable to the Prince : but onely barely affirmeth yt . And yt is manifeste that yt being incommodious vnto the church : yt muste needes be damagable vnto the state : the good and Godly wealth wheroff / is the Princes honour .

Where he saith riches , faire houses , and costly furniture be no hinderances to a godly man , to doo his dewtie : oneles he say a bishop / and by reason / off his ministrie / he speaketh not to purpose . yf so : then yt is before confuted / and more at large purswed off the forsaide book off discipline . That Hypocrisie and pride , lieth hyd vnder the name off pouertie , ys from the matter / not onely because the pouertie which the Councell speaketh of / is none such / that had not sufficient and honest maintenance ( as may appeare in e e Possid . in vit. August . Augustines maner off liuing / which was at the making off the Carthage Canons ) : but also because they spake not off a pretended pouertie / but off that which ( meete for the estate off a bishop ) should be no further in shew / then in deed . Althowgh yt were better for the church / that this pride laie hid : then to haue so many witnesses off yt / in their howses hanged . Their tables and cupbordes spred / their garmentes died with it / and their manner off life both at home and abrode proclaiming yt . He saith also that bishops were wealthy then : becawse feasting was forbidden them . In deede they were welthy stewardes / but poore lordes : great Baylifes / but small proprietaries This he might wel haue gathered / which is trw : that euen then / ther were which ( not content with an honest meintenance ) aspired to further magnificence in their howses / houshould stuf / and fare / then was sitting for bishops : and that vnder colour off getting estimacion to their office . which appeareth both in the for said canons made for that purpose : and in f f Ad Nepotianum . Ierome .

Where he saith that the doctrine off the Gospell is muche more purely professed by ours , then it was by the oulde Bishops : and for proofe alledgeth here thes Councells / and ᵍ otherwhere / that opa . 472. almoste all the moste auncient fathers , yea the moste off the auncientest bishops beleued an abode vpon earth a thowsand yeares after the rising againe : that almoste all the Greke bothe bishops and writers and the moste parte off the Latines , were spotte with free will , merites , inuocation off Sainctes , &c. Where first let yt be obserued / how rowgh ( as in other places before ) be is with the old writers / when it serueth for his purpose : and what equitie there is in this man which crieth owt / if I doo but treade as yt where off one off their heeles / when he at one stroke almoste all / at once / by condemning them off error in the matter off iustification ( the foundation off religion ) and off free will ( which he ʰ saith is likewise ) stricketh them deadly in the head . Secondly ● pag. 83. obserue / that he dothe yt vntrewly . For beside that he is not hable to shewe the moste parte off both Greke and Latine moste auncient writers after Papias , infected with that error off a 1000. yeares : to say that the moste parte off the moste auncient bishops were so / is a notable slaunder . And seing that the writers speak doubtfuly of merites / inuocation off Sainctes / and free will / sometime for / and sometime againste them : likwise seing that diuers thinges vnder ther names are none off theires / but heritiks / which partly corrupted their bokes / partly set forth other vnder their credit : they deserued to be somewhat more gently handled . And yet these are they forsothe / whose autoritie is the beste argument in diuinitie : pag. 200. and from which althowgh wee appeale to the scriptures / and in appealing crie in the D. eares / yet he is deafe / and will not heare . But I thincke from henceforth wee shall heare no more off Tertullian saith yt &c. onles reason be annexed / and that owt off the worde off God .

Thirdly yt is to be obserued / how vnequally the comparison is made . for in steed that he should haue compared the corruptions off the bishops off one prouince / with the corruptions off oures : to make our bishops Sonne to shyne / he matcheth yt with the cioudes off errors / assembled owt off all the worlde / and that by the space off 450. yeares / as is to be seene . To this cosideration pag. 473. doth pertein / the erors off some before noted / the vnsincere preaching of some others / partly by allegories / wherin they are as fonde as the fondest off the aunciente : partly by vaine pompe and ostentation / that was not in them / which althowgh they were studied in all good letters / yet in their homilies to the people / behaued them selues as if they had knowen nothing but Iesus Christ . Lastly so many of them as shall be founde to maintaine all th errours in this packe of the D. I dare wil pronounce that they are deplier plonged in error then any of those ould bishops / which keping the foundacion erred in the reste off the building wheroff ( vpon that alledged off both partes ) let the iudgement be the readers . What their honestie off lyfe is , which is another pointe wherin he compareth oures with the elder bishops / I will not further Pag. 473 medle : especially seing that whether there life be good or bad can hardly be hidden . Althowgh for any imperfections he sheweth that waie in the fathers : he might as well haue made ours equal with th apostels them selues / amongest whom there was contention as amongest the ould bishops . That the 5. Canon of the 2. Councell of Conc. Ty ron 3 can 5. Tyron he stombled one is against me , and my likes which leaue our calling , is from the purpose / and vntrw as hath bene shewed . That my collector deceiued me in the councell , because yt is nether the firste nor second , is meere trifling : seing my allegacion is mainteined / yff yt be ( as yt ys in deed ) the third : this faulte being by all lykelihood some others then mine / Considering that I found yt trwly noted in my paper booke from whence I toke yt . I may rather say that his deceiued him / and was herin somewhat to well skilled in Greke : which for Hierapolis a Cytie in Phrygia / wheroff Papias was bishop / tould him that he was of Ierusalem . pag. 473. Diuis. 18. pag. 447. Cart. c 34

Where I compared the councell which decreed that no bishop sitting in any place shoulde suffer a mynister or elder to stande ▪ with the behauiour off our bishops towards the ministers : he staggereth on this and that side . But his drifte is that yt is the bishops right / that they should stande and he syt : wherein he accuseth the councell off gyuing yt away from them . Then he will haue yt in their discretion , that yt may ( belike ) serue for a brake to break prowd stomacks . But what if the bishop being prowd / the ministers be humble : surely by this reason yt shoulde be rather in their discretion / to make the bishop syt or stande before them : For they often beaten with pouertie / learned humilitie : which he throwgh sodain wealth / ( yf he had any before ) may easely forget . Yf there be such high minded ministers : yt is meete their pride be otherwise corrected / then by this vncanonicall crowching both to blowe vp the bishops heart in pride / and to drawe the rest with their ministerie into con●●mpt : whilest both equall in office / and sometime superiour in giftes / they haue harder intertainement off them / then many off the better sorte off Seruantes haue at the handes off their maisters . So that where they are by the lawe off God / the bishops fellowes : the poore ministers thincke them selues well dealt with / yf they may be admitted for compagnions off his seruantes : as if my lord bishop onely were Shepard ouer the people / and al the rest were Swinardes . I omitt that some of them are content that a Iustice off peace / yea off Quorum , ( as I haue heard ) stand before them with their cappes in hand : which how neere yt is to dispising off powers / wheroff the Apostle speaketh / let all iudged . Iud. 8. v.

To that alledged off the traine off waiting men before and after , condemned in all bishops in the person off Samosatenus Diuis 19. pag. 447. Euseb. 7. li. ca. 30. he answereth / he was condemned for hauing Souldiours , and for walking the streets . which is friuolous . For there was no more likelihood off a capitaine in him ; then in our bishops / sauing that where he was waited vpon with speares / peraduenture according to the seruing mens fashion off the countrie : oures are folowed with swordes and bucklers . He is generally there spoken against for his pompe : as that he was like vnto men in worldly dignitie , and made him a throne or pulpit like a Prince . And for his men / not onely because they had spears but because they were in great nomber . Now if this were damnable in a bishop to be like a ptince or wordly potentate : yt is manifeste that our bishops for thir traine / are vnder the same condemnation . Gregorie also althowgh Ruffin . 1. lib. ca. 19. Athana . Apol. 2. not in the same chap. off Ruffin / entred as well as George , and before him / with a troupe off men into the bishoprik off Alexandria / owt off which Athanasius was wrongfully put : and that is with other thinges reproched him / althowgh they were lent by the gouernours . He saith it appeareth by these examples / that bishops had riches and autoritie : which is absurd / seing him self confesseth / and the storie maketh mention / that they enioyed this by vniust meanes / and churche robberie . I graunt the bishop was steward off great aboundance / but not to his owne vse .

That euery teacher in the churche was called Rabbi : those Diuis. 20. pag. 448. know / which haue any skill in the toung from whence it was taken . So that what honour the D. can draw to the ministrie by that word / groweth no more to the bishop then to all other teachers : and it conteined a profession off obedience , in respect off those that were tawght / not in respect of one teacher towardes an other . If the Euangelistes had turned it Lord which I corrected in the second edition ) yet the degre off superioritie signified by this word Lord must be very small . Seing yt was vsed by a women off honest Ioh. 20. 1● estate / to one whom she supposed no other but a gardener . Where therfore he would proue that the word Lord gyuen to Athanasins by the Synod signifieth some high degree and autoritie / becawse the Emperour and his nobles were called onely Lordes withowt other addition : he trifleth / seing it is manifest by that alledged / that with them being a commen title almost to the basest sort of men / yt had no such honour shut in yt as he pretendeth / but was great or small / according to the persons yt was applied vnto . So that or euer that word will help him / he must shew that the bishops then were set in great owtward dignitie .

Where also he would make the reader belieue / that the Synode called Athanasius Lord off the priests of Alexandria : yt is but to abuse him : when that word ( as the greke ) is gyuen to any of meane estate / and is as much with vs as Syr. And not with vs alone / but in diuerse other countreis / which speake so to any of meane condition : yet the D. turneth it alwaies my Lord. Wherby he lordeth those / which haue no lordship to mainteine them nor man to waite vpon them : yea ( as I haue shewed ) thus we shall haue my Lord gardenkeper : then which what can be more ridiculous . And that it was not the Councels meaning / to make Athanasius Lord off the elders in Alexandria ▪ appeareth manifestly by that I haue alledged off the elders off Alexandria : which call him their fellow minister withowt any other title . Wherin they should be too vnmanerly and vndutifull / if he were ( as it seemeth the D. woulde beare vs in hand ) their Lord. Which dalying may yet better appeare / in that Alexander bishop off Alexandria writing to Athanasius / when he was but deacon / or elder at the most : writeth . To Athanasius Lord and beloued sonne : So that if Dominus must needes be a Lord : then my Lord bishop muste by the same reason that he would be called Lord / call the elders or Deacons / Lordes likewise . So there shall be Lord Bishop / Lord Elder / Lord Deacon : which as it is ridiculous / so it tuneth not with the bishops note off honour / which the D. fighteth for . And this is also answer to my Lord Paulinus : beside that Lord is not referred vnto the pronoune yowres , as if the councell had said Athanasius was the elders Lord. And if it were / yet if he will therupon conclude / any superioritie of him aboue th elders off his church : he must by the same reason say / that one simple bishop had superioritie ouer an other / seing Eusebius bishop / calleth Paulinus his fellow bishop his Lord : which is absurd and condemned off him self .

Now I haue shewed him how bishopes were called most honorable Theod li. 5. cap. 8. Lordes , he hath gotten two or three places where are found titles to the same effect : which is idle / seing that was confessed . To my answer that Lorde with them was no other title , then might be gyuen to a man off meane degree : he saith / most honorable Lord was onely gyuen to those in great autoritie , which is onely said / and may easely be confuted / in that Alexander bishop off Alexandria the Metropolitane citie / writing to all the church ministers / not bishops onely / called them most honorable fellow Socr. li. ● . cap. 6. ministers . That he saith it was not grudged at then that bishops were called by the same titles , that Princes : ys very plaine language / and needeth no commentarie to shew the meaning / sauing that he durst not vtter all . For if he would haue applied his place : he shoulde haue saide / yt was not grudged at then that bishops were called by more loftie titles then th Emperours : seing the title he presseth for the bishops / is most precious Lordes , and the Emperour as he saith was onely called Lord.

That the house off salutations / was within the boundes off the Diuis. 21. pag 449. churche appeareth not in Theodoret. His reason / because the houses perteining to the bishoprick were nere the churche , is weake . For althowgh all howses perteining to the bishoprik were neere : yet there might be some neere / not perteining therto . H●●beit if it were belonging to the church / in that word there / is no such note off excellency / wherby yt deserueth to be the porters lodge of our bishops palaces . To that off the bishops bestowing the church goods vpon loitering seruing men , which shoulde be bestowed vpon the vniuersities , and poore bothe ministers , and other : he saith / and onely saith that their number off seruing men tendeth to the defense off the realme , honour off the prince , and their owne good education . off the princes honour : yt is answered . strenght to the realme , they can not be : seing the men should be / althowghe they were not nourished by the bishop : especially seing the bishops howse / is an vnfit schole to traine vp to warfare . And if the former necessities were helped / and yt thowght meet that the church goods should serue the realm that way : all see that yt would rise to more profit / if some were nourished off them / in profession off a Souldiour / then that in waiting vpon the white Rochet they should rather become white liuered / then fashioned / for that seruice . Beside that the bishops countenance being so profitable as yt is made / and placed a greate parte in this suite off men : it is manifest that his pompe houlding diuers at home / which otherwise might be in the field weakeneth rather then strenghneth the realme . For the education they get vnder them : the corrupte religion of some / the wante of Catechising others ignorant in the principles of religion / the leudnes of diuers / the idlenes off the most parte / which is in the eies of all giue to plentifull a confutation off that parte . wherin let the reader obserue / how vnmeet they be to gouern dioceses / and Prouinces / which haue their proper houses so euil ordered : especially seing a a 1. Tim. 3 ● . the Apostel will not truste him with one parishe / which ruleth not his owne howse wel . And the trwth ys / that the church mynistery is of that trauaill and care / that yt will not suffer the bishops gyftes ( be they neuer so greate ) to be spente in the houshoulding and masterlike charge off suche a nomber : which was no doubt one cause why bothe the scripture / and the olde Canons / shut owt the bishops from this pompe .

Where he saith / the vniuersities , ministers , and poore may otherwise be prouided for : when that ys browght to pas / and in suche sorte as a sufficient nomber ●f learned men may be nourced vp to fournish bothe the churche off ther ministers / and commen wealth off her magistrates / the ouerplus may ( as M. c c Vpon the 8. commaund . Hoopers counsail is ) goo to maintenance off Souldiours , or other necessary vses / aduised off by the common wealthe . That the canons browght against the bishops pomp , reache to vniuersitie colledges , forasmuch as there were none such then , as we haue now , ys vntrwe : considering that with other vniuersities euery bishops howse was ( as hathe bene shewed ) a colledge off Students in diuinitie : and yt ys otherwise vnsufficient . For I reason not againste their pompe / because yt was not vsed in times paste , but because yt was forbidden . And if he can shew / the reuenews off Colledges forbidden by the Godly councels : then yt had heue somewhat he saith . Ad also that if the pompe and ryot off Colledges / werelike the bishops : yt were likewise worthie / to be spoken against . Ierome / cited against the pompe of bishops receiueth answer / that he spake agaynste the abuse and not thuse . Ieromes wordes be these : let the readeriudge off his meanig . yt is Ierom. ad Nepot . a foule shame , that before the gates off pore and crucified Christe , Who also eate of other mens meate , the Consuls Sergeantes and Gard shoulde waite : and that the ruler off the Prouince , shoulde dine better at thy howse then in the palace . But if thow pretend to do these thinges , to th ende to beg for the poore : the Secular iudge will giue more to a churche man which kepethe measure and is frugall , then to one which is riche : and reuerence more thy holines , then thy riches , Or if the ruler be suche , that he will not hearken to the churchmen ctauing for the poores reliefe , but when he is amongest the cupps : I will gladly want suche a benefit : and beg off Christ in stede off the iudge , who is better and soner able to helpe then the iudge . I omit that he inueighethe against a church man / which poore before / becometh riche by the church : and liuing very homely before / after vsethe delicate fare / with other thinges to that ende .

Whether this were one cause off the bishops stately pompe Diuis. 22. pag. 450. that ( certeine noble and riche men rece●●ed to the mynistery , and liuing somwhat like their former estates ) others assaied to be like vnto them : whether an other cause were for that it being Diuis. 23. 24. 25. pag. 451. amongest the heathen priests before yt came into the church off the Christians yt was ( as diuers other corruptions ) taken off them by imitation : whether a thirde and more higher cawse theroff were / that the brauery of the pourpled whore of Rome might bothe easelier take her seate and faster houlde yt , whilest other bishops were made somewhat sutable vnto her , which she could not haue done if ( other bishops left in the simplicitie wherin God had apointed them ) she had bene as an owle amongest the reste of the birdes : I say whether these three / are amongest the causes off bringing in the bishops pompe into the churche / I leaue to the readers iudgement . Considering that the D. beside begging / and dissembling the matter / which I goo abowte to proue : hathe nothing . That Christians might aswel be thowght to haue folowed Maximinus in building churches , as in sufficiently prouiding for the ministers : ys to simple / seing we deny hym not sufficient prouision . But if he esteme nothing sufficient , onles he be mainteined as a lord : let him learn off S. Paul / what is sufficient / and so he shal ( I doubt not ) fall from his 1000. to a 100. vnto thes three 1. Tim. 6. 6. 8. vpon 4. Ephes. causes off the bishoplike statelines I will heer ad the fourth : worthy to be obserued . M. Bucer shewing the incommodities which came / by that the bishops were receiued to bear ciuill offices . saith : after they began to occupie the place off princes : they chalenged also to them selues their pompe and brauery . So let the reader iudg how trw yt ys that I said : that our archbishops , bishops , &c. besides the names , haue almost nothing commenwith those of elder times : and how if the old bishops were aliue , they would not know one annother . For that they would thinke ours princes , and ours woulde esteme them as hedge prīestes . What I allow , off the oulde Canons , and what I disalow , althowgh Diuis. 26. pag. 452. he dissemble : yet he knoweth better then he would / I hauing at large declared yt in this Tractate .

The first diuis . I o●●it . In the next / to that the Apostle called CAP. VI. Pag. 454. 1. Cor. 4. 1. the Corint . to a mo●●rate estimacion of the ministers ( meane between contempt and to much exalting them ) vpon occasion that the false Apostels were to much lifted vp : he saith / yt was a partial affection to wardes their teachers not in respect off any title , which is friuolous , for if it be denied generally / that they shoulde not be so mounted : then the way is stopped against titles and offices , and other meanes whatsoeuer / wherby that may grow . Beside that the D. is afraied as appeareth by his answer to be browght vnto a moderation and meane betwene contempt and excessiue estimacion . Where I shew / that as the false Apostels pompe in preaching , lifting them vp aboue the faithfull ministers , caused the faithful ministers to be contemned : so the pompe of our bishops , lifted vp aboue the rest off the pastors , to be a ready way to bringe their mynisterie owt off credit : and that as that gaue occasion to the Corinthes to saie , I houlde off suche a teacher , &c. so this giueth occasion to say , I wil beleue my Lord Bishop or my lord Archbishop , whatsoeuer our parson say : for they be wise men and learned : I say to all this beside wandring and vnlikely slaunders there is not a word : seing I trust / it appearethe to all / that we giue no occasion by any pompe that the people in magnifying off vs should condemne others .

The next diuision I leaue to the reader . Where against the Diuis. 4. pag. 455. D. slaunder off the Admonitions intent to take away princes , I shewed that his practise against vs , is the same with the Pharisies against our Sauiour Christ , which being rubbed for their ambition accused him as no friend off Cesar . He answerethe that we are not Christ , which is ridiculous / that the case is not like , whereof let the reader iudge : seing he is ( as they were ) honour pricked . Whether our Archbishop dwell as far asonder almost , from the ciuil magistrate , as Rome and Ierusalem : let the reader iudge off that alledged . likewise what a conning stargaser the D. is / which saw in the star off my forehead that the admonition intended the ouerthrow off the ciuill magistrate . The nexte off the canon off Antioche Councel , is answered , but where I shew that that Canon is not like to be iustifiable considering that it sowght falsely , ●●edite off the name off the apostels : he answereth not . Onles this be his answer : that yt is the naturall Canon off the apostels . And in deede his wordes so sound / for thus he saithe . That canon off the Apostels is repeated in this councel : as diuers off the Nice be repeated off other councels . Which how shamfully yt is spoken : may appeare off that we haue before disputed off the antiquitie off the metropolitane . How dangerously to the ouerthrow off our faithe / whilest we are borne in hand / that there be canons of the Apostels not conteined in the canonicall scripture : al that haue iudgement / may vnderstand / and yt is in parte * * Tract. 1. before declared . I omit that yt is cleane contrary to his doctrine off the archbishop : wherby he maketh him an officer / changeable at the wil of the Prince . For if that be th apostles Canon : there is no ministery in the holde scripture / which hathe better euidence for an vnchangeable perpetuitie / then yt .

That M. Bucer is wholy for vs in this point : I refer the reader Diui. 6. pag. 457. to that a a Diui. 15. pag. 367. before written . The place alledged here would haue made litle for him : if he had not kepte his custome . For where Bucer speaketh off obedience to be gyuen by the bishops to the metropolitan : he hath left owt these wordes after their maner . By which conning / he may proue the Acthiopian afaire : man because he hath white teeth . For all see : that M. Bucer by these wordes / delaied the autoritie off the metropolitanship . And if they were not plaine enowgh : yet others in the same place are . that the patriarches were set ouer the metropolitanes , as they vpon the Ephes. ouer the bisho ▪ but that nether , could doe any thing saue onely admonish those ouer whom they were set : and if they obeied not , to complaine of them to the synod . After he condemneth / that the Patriarches toke vnto them the ordination off the bishops nigh them : and by meanes therof , by litle and litle gat some iurisdiction ouer those bishopes , and their churches . So appeareth / that if there be any difference here ( touching these offices ) betwene vs / and M. Bucer : yt is onely / that where we affirme yt good / that the presidentship should be chosen at euery meeting / as that which cometh neerer the apostels example / and more safe against Tyranny : M ▪ Bucer may seem to make yt a standing and continuall office / set ●● in one man . For as towching his autority / wherin the chief poinct off the controuersie lieth : yt findeth as smal grace with M : Bucer / as with vs .

Whatsoeuer is here / is e e Diu. 42. pag. 390. answered : sauing the contrarietie assigned Diuis. 7. pag. 458. betwen this / an Apostle was aboue an Euangelist , and that there was chiefrie euen amongest the apostels / in that one labored more / and had more excellent giftes then another : which how manifest an argument yt is that the archbishop hathe robbed him off all sense let the reader iudge . Sauing also that he signifieth that the difference betweene the Apostels must be in autoritie not in excellency off giftes or laboures . Considering that there was amongest them in those poinctes a most perfect equalitie . Which how absurd yt is may be considered in that some had the gifte off continencie / which other some had not / some trauailed with their handes for their liuing / which other did not : and in that S. Paul / is said expresly to haue laboured more then they all . To the nexte beside bare affirmations 1. Cor. 15. 9. and slaunders ofte repeted : he answereth nothing . To the ninth : I answer not .

That the greke worde 2. Gal. 2. signifieth for the most parte Diuis. 10. pag. 461. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . to seeme : can not be denied . Whether there be any necessitie to chaunge this vsual and ordinary signification in that place : I leaue to the reader . Seing first the same word in that chapter / is twise so turned : where the same bothe matter / and persons are spoken off . seing also yt is confessed / by M. Beza which corrected yt : that the apostle speaketh not according to his owne but according to the sense off his aduersaries . Thirdly / seing the cause which moued Erasmus and M. Beza to departe from that translation for that ther is nothing ioined to declare , wherin that seeming and apparance shoulde be ) is not so vrging . For S. Paul vseth ofte suche shorte / and cut speaches : which are to be supplied by other places off his : as M. Beza him self sheweth in the same chap. vers. 6. I omit the nomber off interpreters / which haue folowed the oulde in this behalfe . Howbeit I confesse / that if I had knowne that I had in this pointe to doe with the Geneua / M. Bezas / and Erasmus translation / and Budies autoritie : I would ( for reuerence off their learning ) haue vse ▪ an easier worde in dissenting . nether wil I striue about yt / wit●●he D. yt making litle ether off or on / to the matter in hand : seing the reason ( alledged by the adm. and mainteined by me ) standeth still against the archbishop . For if Saint Paul / were in nothing inferiour vnto Saint Peter / one of those cheif there mentioned : and yf the making of S. Peter / to haue autoritie ouer Saint Paul / be the ouerthrow of S. Pauls argument : then yt foloweth / that thadm . aptly alledged that place againste the archbishop . Nether can it be alledged / to proue any degree of honour the in ministery , not onely because the price which the Galatheans had off those by suggestion off the false Apostels / was excessiue in that they preferred those three before S. Paul : but also for that off men in the same degree and autoritie one may iustly be honoured more then an other / in respecte off giftes more excellente in him then in the reste .

Where I shewed / that our Sa. Christs calling is auowed Diui. 11. pag. 462. Heb. 5. 5. 6 iust because yt was conteined in scripture : he saith the apostel onely shewed by scripture that he intruded not him self but was called off God . Where the testimonies put as causes off this that he did not glorifie him selfe : muste be also cawses off his vocation / and that in suche sorte that if those and suche like testimonies had not bene / his vocation coulde not haue bene iustified . where he saith none can iustifie his calling if it were not lawfull withowt suche a personall testimonie as our Sau. Christ had : we presse not all the circumstances . Ther being no more in that kinde off office / but he alone : the testimonie off it / must needes be personall . Yt shall be sufficient for him : to shew that the Archbishops haue the same testimonie off the worde / which the bishops or pastours . To the next I answer not : In the next / there is nothing but bare affirmacions / answered a a Diu. 31. pag. 380. Diuis . 33. Pag. 381. before .

b b Diu. 14. pag. 465. To that alledged that if all the church were in one Prouince , and one ouer them all in trauailing with an archbishop he should bringe forthe a pope : he answereth / that can not be , the churche being scattered throwghout the worlde . Which I graunte / hauing respecte vnto Gods election / and calling hidden from vs : but that the churche established in a visible and apparant from / may not ( which God fo●●id ) be browght into one land / I hetherto heare no reason , he sa●th further / that the church after the ascension being in Ierusalem onely , yf yt had had one bishop , should by my reason likewise haue had a pope : which is vntrew . For we ioine with the pastor / ( and that in equal autoritie of gouernement ) th elders off the church : condemning al monarchicall gouernement in the pastor . The rest is c c Diu 32 pag. 381. Diuis. 41. pag. 389. answered . The next / is d d Diui. 33. pa. 381. answered before . e e di . 1617. pag. 467. Accused for charging the adm. to haue vsed the papistes reasons , he saith he may wel doo yt : but reason he can shew none . He denieth that he woulde proue one archbishop ouer a prouince by one kinge ouer a realme : yet beside he flatly f f Diu. 41. pag. 389. affirmeth that the forme off gouernment in the church must be according to that of the common wealthe , driuen to the wal / yt is his common refuge / that by the same reason we easte away Archbishops , we may likewise depose kinges . His whole answer almost heer / is cloured off diuers diuisions before : where he hath a a Diu 43. pag. 390. Diuis. 50. pag. 396. Diuis. 70. pag 417. reply . And yet suche is his forehead / that althowgh he haue heer set before me a charger off Colewories : yet for answering them with repetition off one line / in as few wordes as if I had onely referred him to the former treatise / he shameth not to say / that I vse nothing almost but repetitions . b b Diu. 18. pag. 469. To that alledged out of Caluin / that the churche dothe cleane one part vnto an other vnder our Sau. Christes dominion , according to the order and forme off policīe , which he hathe prescribed , and therfore not by a bishop of a diocese or archbishop , as those which he praescribed not : he answereth / that he speaketh off the spirituall gouernement , and not off the externall . wherby he maketh Caluin a trifling disputer . For the Papistes which will haue the pope a ministeriall head vnder Christe / Confesse that he alone gouerneth inwardly and secretly by his spirit : but that their pope is a meanes / wherby he doth yt . Therfore Cal. in saying that / that is doen by the order and forme off policie prescribed off God : stopped vp that corner against them . And beside that yt will be hard for him to shew / that the inwarde working off God by his spirit is called an order and forme off policie : let him answer where that order and forme off policie off the lordes secret working with his spirit / is prescribed : seing the worke thereof / ys as the voice of the wind which we hearing can Iohn . 3. 8. not tel from whence yt cometh nor whet●●● yt will : and seing the lord commaunding his ministers to doe their dwtie / reserueth to him selfe the manner and order / how and when he will worke inwardly . Secondly he answereth that this policie off our Bishop and Archbishop is praescribed , althowghe not particularly expressed in his word : as if the force off this worde prescribed were not more then / contemed / and asmuche as his particularly expressed . But I haue a a d 70. 71 pag. 4. 7. shewed / that he requireth also / that al church officers be expressed in the worde : and what expressed meaneth is before b b ● . Tract. obserued . The reader to make vp his mouth with / and as yt were for a ban quetting dish . hathe the next whole chapter off repetitions . which ys c c in the 2. and 3. ca. off this Tract . answered / and so is the d d di . 16. 17 pag. 446 nexte vnto yt .

Thus we are ( by the grace off god ) come / to an ende off this treatise / wherin let the reader iudge / whether yt hathe bene proued that the offices off archbishops and archdeacons be vnlawfull / that they came not into the church 300. yeares after the ascension off our Sa. Christe : that there names are likewise vnlawfull by the worde / forbidden by auncient councels / not to be founde in any auncient writing before 400. yeares approched . Further whether that euery congregation / owght to haue a bishop : that one onely may haue two or moe : that they owght all to haue like titles and autoritie . Sauing that in their meetings for orders sake one by consent of the rest gouerneth that action / in suche sorte as is declared . That all these pointes off the bishop haue grounde off the word off God / and moste off them shewed to haue remained some time after th apostels / and the traces longe after . Finally / whether that euen the elder Bishops when they were declined from the synceritie off gods ordinance / and the archbishops and archdeacons which he neuer ordeined : were much more tollerable then ours : as those whose autority was without comparison les / and pompe . none at all .