The state of the now-Romane Church Discussed by way of vindication of the Right Reuerend Father in God, the Lord Bishop of Exceter, from the weake cauills of Henry Burton. By H.C.

THE STATE OF the Now — Romane CHVRCH .

THere can be no more euident signe of a bad cause , then if it be handled falsly and sophistically : for ( as Euripides saith )

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . The truth is sound , her words are plaine , Falshood is sicke ; she needs must faine .

Which being so , we may soone perceiue what we are to thinke of Mr. Burtons cause ; who hauing taken vpon himselfe to oppose men euery way better then himselfe , about the truth , and true visibilitie of the Church of Rome ; vseth all kind of sophistrie and deceit : as may appeare both by the whole Discourse , and by euery part and parcell thereof .

In the whole you shall perceiue two points of notable sophistrie common to him with all those that maintaine bad causes : One is Beggery , commonly called of the Logitians , Petitio principij , which proueth one obscure or vncertaine thing by another ; or would haue that to be granted which reason denyeth : Another is Disorder , which is Horaces Humano capiti , &c. and Ouids Rudis indigestaque moles . A confused heape of independencies , like a Lotterers pitcher , full of scrowles shuffled together , without any reference one to another .

His Beggery will soone appeare , if we resolue this dispute into that Enthymeme , whereof it wholly consisteth ; which is this : S. Iohn saith , The second Angell poured out his viall vpon the S●a , and it became as the blood of a dead man ; and euery liuing soule dyed in the sea : Ergo , the Church of Rome is neyther a true Church , nor a true visible Church . To which I may say farre better then Bishop said to Perkins : Apply Iohn Barber , and thou shalt haue a new paire of Sizors . Whether I wrong him or no , I referre my selfe to the censure of euery iudicious Reader : And if I wrong him not , euery man may see , that hee beggeth two things which no good Diuine may yeeld vnto him : One is , that an Allegoricall Prophecie ( such as this is ) may bee laid for a good foundation , whereon to frame an Argument to decide a Controuersie in Diuinitie ; contrary to the old Maxime , Theologia symbolica non est argumentatiua : Allegories in diuinitie afford no good arguments . Especially if they be Prophecies , whereof there may be doubt whether they be fulfilled or no : in which case the tryall is , to examine the perspicuitie thereof : for a Prophecie , as of all Scriptures it is most obscure , before it be fulfilled ; so when it is fulfilled it is of all other most cleare , and easie : This therefore being an Allegory , and propheticall , and retaining the aenigmaticall darknesse which it had originally ( as appeareth by the various interpretations of the Learned , euery day renewed ) I for my part cannot suppose it to be yet accomplished ; and so ( to me ) it is vnfit for that vse to which hee hath imployed it .

The other point of his Beggerie is , That his owne priuate interpretation of these words may be allowed as the true meaning of the holy Ghost : which is , That by the Sea we are to vnderstand the Doctrines of the Councel of Trent ▪ by the blood , the abominable corruptions therof : by the Angel , Chemnitius , and other learned men of that time that examined it : and by the pouring out of the viall , their preachings and writings . All which hee hath borrowed from Brightman , whom notwithstanding elsewhere he forsaketh . But now what if we deny him this interpretation ; and require some proofe hereof , what will he say then : Surely hee is vtterly disappointed , and all his building falls to the ground . If he say we must shew some reason for our denyall ; besides that we haue shewed some already , it would be knowne , why we may not as well deny , as he affirme without reason : If this course bee good , euery mans priuate fantasie ( especially if he can make some shew of probability ) must bee 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the Reuelations Reuelation : And then why may not Bellarmines interpretation of the ninth cap. ( Oratione in Scholis habita ) wherein he turnes all vpon Luther and the Lutherans ) passe for current ? But lest I may seeme to seeke euasions ; I will doe that against him , which he cannot , or at least hath not yet done for himselfe : I will shew some reason for my denyall ; and leaue it to the iudgement of the Learned : And because the ground of all is that the Councell of Trent , or the doctrines thereof , are that bloody sea : I suppose it sufficient ( if I proue it to bee otherwise ) to turne vp all his phantasticall Cauillation .

First therefore I proue it ex praeconcessis ; for hee granteth , that the same Sea whereof cap. 8. r. the third part was turned into blood , is here wholly turned thereinto . Now Brightman , ( whom in this point he followeth ) will haue that third part of the Sea , to bee the doctrine of Europe , the third part of the Christian world : And then 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : the whole sea is the doctrine of the whole Christian world : But the doctrine of the Councell of Trent , is not the doctrine of the whole Christian world : Ergo it is not the Sea here mentioned by S. Iohn .

Secondly , vpon the powring out of this second Viall ; this sea is turned into congealed and putrified blood , which ( by his interpretation ) signifieth that by the conclusions of the Councell of Trent , Romes doctrines are become mortall and damnable : and this puts a difference betweene the state of Romes doctrines before the Councel of Trent ( while as yet they were in their growing ) and after it : Before there was some fresh water , &c. but after none at all . So saith he : But I say that the Councell of Trent hath not a whit corrupted Romes Doctrines more than they were along time before : Ergo the Councell of Trents conclusions are not here to be vnderstood . I need not take paines in the proofe hereof ; because the learned doe not accuse it of this fault ; but that ( whereas it promised reformation , and that it was expected ther from ) it cosened the world ; and in stead of reforming confirmed the foule corruptions of the religion and doctrine of the Church which formerly had preuailed : Indeed Master Crashaw ( whose memory for old acquaintance is pretious to me ) noteth one , ( and but one ) point of doctrine ( for the other is only for practice ) wherein the Councell of Trent hath added some thing to the former corruptions , which is , the equalizing of the Apocrypha with the Canonicall books of Scripture : But if we consider how he interpreteth himselfe ( that no Councell before had done the like ) it will appeare , that hee denyeth not , but that euen that corruption also was inueterate ●efore the Councell of Trent .

Thirdly , I say that the Councell of Trent hath reformed Romes doctrine , and made it ( at least in one point ) better then it was before : Ergo it is not here to be vnderstood . The point is this , that there is no naturall ability in a man , to prepare himselfe for grace , and so no merit of congruity , in which regard Stapleton saith , Meritum ex congruo explosum est : a point of no small moment in these dayes .

Fourthly , I say that there is as much fresh water in Romes doctrines since the Councell of Trent , as there was before : Ergo it is not here to bee vnderstood . This I proue , by the doctrine of the Tridentine Catechisme , in euery part whereof there is sufficient quantity of sauing doctrine for those that ( to vse your owne words ) can search and find it out : separating the good from the bad , and truth from errour : as may appeare to them that will take the paines to reade it : yea I dare bee bold to say , the Church of Rome had not for many hundred yeares before the Councell of Trent , so good a forme of doctrine , as that Catechisme containeth : which I speake not to justifie the Councell , or the Catechisme , in any errour comprehended therein ; but only to shew the beggery of the aduersarie : of which this shall be sufficient .

His disorder shewes it selfe in three things ; First , in not setting the state of the question : Secondly , in misplacing his owne arguments : Thirdly , in idle repetitions . For the first : There cannot be a greater fault in a Disputant , then either to leave the question altogether vnstated ; or else to state it amisse ; for by this meanes it ordinarily fals out , that the contention is nothing else but Andabatarum pugna , the fight at blind man buffe ( as we say , ) so as a man may misse ten times , before hee hit once : But of the two the former is the worse , wherein this our aduersary offendeth : If he say , he tooke it as hee found it ; it will not excuse : For I dare say his pretended aduersaries intended not a combat ; if they had , they would haue depriued him of the occasion of much babbling : And yet , had he not listed to be contentious , hee might haue picked such a state of the question out of the defenders writings , as might haue d●●led the edge of his quarrelsome humor : for the state being set aright , and with perspicuity , it will easily appeare to which side the truth inclineth : wherefore that I offend not in that wherein I finde him to be faulty ; I will doe that which he hath left vnperformed . First then wee are to know , that the words whereof the question consisteth are full of ambiguity : For both the Church of Rome , and a true Church , and a Church truly visible , haue many senses , and significations : The Church of Rome hath at least eight seuerall acceptions : For sometimes it noteth the particular Diocesse of the Romane territory , commonly called the particular Romane Church : Sometimes ( and most vsually ) it comprehendeth all the national Churches which communicate with Rome in the same faith , and vnder the same head , the Pope , commonly called the Catholique Romane Church : Sometimes the Clergy of that Church is onely vnderstood by that title , commonly called the Church representatiue : Sometimes the people onely , commonly called the Laity , and of some the popular Church of Rome : Sometimes the whole body of Clergy and Laity : Sometimes the Papacy , or Apostacy in that Church , which is S. Iohns Babylon : Sometimes the Elect in that Church , still communicating with the Papacy , which S. Iohn calls Gods people : And sometimes the hidden Church which is in the Romane Church , and yet communicateth not with her abominations ; which some call the Church in the wildernesse . Againe , A Church is said to bee true , diuers wayes : As first materially , in that it consisteth of a people comprehended within the compasse of Gods Couenant of life , and saluation : Secondly , formally , in regard of frame , and constitution : Thirdly , accidentally , in regard of soundnes , and outward communion . Thirdly , a Church is said to be truly visible for the true markes of a Church which it hath ; either in regard of it selfe within it selfe ; in which respect , the Churches in persecution are truly visible , though their enemies and others which are not of their number see them not : Or in regard of the world abroad : whether Christians or Infidels which know her assemblies : And in this latter sense againe , it is said to be visible , either strictly and properly , when the whole Church is visible at once , and all together ( which is onely true of particular Congregations ) or largely and Synechdochically , when the whole cannot bee visible together , and at once , but by pe●cemeale , and succession : and so the Catholique Church here on earth may truly be said to bee visible . Thus you see how great ambiguity there is in the sense of these few words , The Church of Rome is a true and truly visible Church .

Now in the second place , to apply all this to our present purpose . Although diuerse men doe set the state of this question diuersly , as may best serue for their owne priuate ends and purposes : yet I will take it in the largest extent , and as it may bee most fauourable for the Church of Rome : Thus ; Whether the Catholike Church of Rome ( as it is called in opposition to the Dioces ) in regard of the whole body thereof compounded of Clergy and Laity , bee still within the couenant of Gods sauing grace : and haue such markes of that couenant still abiding in it , that though properly at once , and all together it cannot bee visible , yet by peece-meale , and successiuely , it may truly be said so to be . And so much for the state of the question and his first disorder . His second point of disorder is in misplacing his owne arguments ; which I take not as if it were done ignorantly , as not knowing what hee should haue done ; ( for hee excuseth himselfe for it , supposing it superfluous to doe it ) but artificially for his best aduantage ; It seemes hee trusted more to the gentlenesse of his aduersaries , and to his owne abilitie in opposing them ; then to the strength of his owne , and his power to maintaine them ; and so brings them in as it were by way of ambu●● . But howsoeuer it hath pleased him to proceed ; I may not passe them ouer in this place without tryall ; vnless I would incurre the same suspition : Let vs see therefore how hee proueth the negatiue .

His first argument , ( wherein he placeth his greatest confidence ) is briefly propounded pag. 24. but more at large pag. 90. of his Aduertisement , and it lyeth thus .

That Church which denieth , yea accurseth , the sauing faith of Iesus Christ vnto Iustification ; allowing only such a faith which can neuer saue a man , but is a gracelesse faith , separable from grace , and which a man may carie with him into Hell ; that is an Apostatized Church ; vtterly falne away from Christ , wherein no saluation is to be found , or hoped for :

But the Church of Rome doth all this : Ergo.

To which I answer ; by denying all : I deny the proposition , because it is sophisticall : The assumption , because it is false : and I need not then doubt to deny the conclusion . The proposition is sick of that Sophisme , which the Logicians call secundum plures interrogationes , or propositiones : that is , when many Propositions are ioyned together in one , whereof some are true , some false : as here are at least three . One , that the Church ( so bablingly described ) is an apostatised Church : another , that it is vtterly fallen away from Christ : a third , that no saluation is to be found or hoped for therein . Of which the first onely is true , and the rest notoriously false , and against the Scripture : for first , to denie , yea to accurse sauing Faith , & to allow the contrary , is not a point of totall & finall Apostasie , vnles it be ioyned with malice and obstinacie ; and be the sinne against the holy Ghost , to which repentance is vtterly denyed . Else what shall wee say of S. Peter who both denyed and cursed the knowledge of Christ in himselfe . Secondly , if this be true , ( as it is ) then may saluation be found , and hoped for , notwithstanding that de●iall , cursing , and approbation . Thirdly , it must be remembred , that our question is of the whole body of the Church , that i● ▪ neither of the popular part onely , nor of the representatiue onely , but of both together : if then the one part onely shall doe as he saith , and not the whole body , who can say that there is no saluation to bee found therein , or that it is vtterly falne away from Christ . So much for the Proposition .

In the next place I say the Assumption is euidently false , if not more then slanderous : For first the Church of Rome ( whether partially , or wholly vnderstood ) neuer denyed , neuer accursed sauing and iustifying Faith , nor euer allowed a gracelesse faith onely which cannot saue , &c. Looke vpon all the Canons of the Councell of Trent , and see whether any such thing bee to bee found therein , or gathered therefrom : doth it not distinguish betweene a living and a dead faith ? And doth it not say that the liuing Faith only iustifieth , and not the dead ? what is it then that it denyeth and accurseth ? It is this , first , the forme and manner of Iustification by Faith : when it is said to iustifie as the very forme of Iustification , and not as a meere disposition thereto . Secondly this assertion , that a dead faith separate from grace is not a true faith ; though it cannot iustifie : this is that which the Counsell denyeth and accurseth in this case , and no more ; yet you say boldly if not impudently , pag. 25. If any dare deny this hee will but bewray his shamelesse ignorance in this point . In what point M. Burton ? That the Councell of Trent admitteth of no other faith then that which the Deuils and damned in hell haue ? O mouth ! O forehead ! Haue they a liuing Faith ; which is fruitfull in good workes ? Such a Faith as S. ●ames commendeth ? And doth not the Councell admit of this Faith ? yea of this onely for Iustification ? Reade the latter part of the seuenth Chapter of the sixt Session , and bee ashamed . Secondly , say the Counsell had done so indeed ; Doth the whole Church of Rome doe it ? Doth the popular part therof doe it ? By your owne words , page 25. they denie it . Yea but they beleeue as the Church beleeues . True , but with a secret condition , If the Church beleeue well , and in that onely wherein it beleeueth aright : Being deceiued in nothing , but that they trust the Church too much ; for if they could be perswaded shee beleeueth amisse in any thing , therein they would not beleeue as she doth . But you will proue that Romes iustifying faith is different in kinde from the true sauing Faith of Christ . How ? Can you tell ? Marry thus .

That faith which Christ commendeth for the onely true sauing faith , doth so iustifie a man that hee shall neuer come into condemnation , but passe from death vnto life :

But the onely faith which the Church of Rome alloweth doth not so .

Ergo , Aduertisement . pag. 91.

I answere : A Papist , or Arminian would denie the Proposition ; but I grant it , and deny the Assumption : for let the Church of Rome confesse what she will in her owne wrong ; I say , that that faith which the Church of Rome onely alloweth for iustification ( viz a liuing faith fruitfull in good workes ) doth so saue , and iustifie a man , that hee cannot goe with it into condemnation : and dare you say the contrary ? This is his first Argument .

The second is this :

That Church which cleaueth to Antichrist as her head , whence she receiueth all her spirituall life , is no true Church ; nor hath any saluation to be found , or hoped for in her .

But the Church of Rome doth so .

Ergo. Aduertisement . pag. 91. 92.

I denie the Assumption ; Not for that I denie the Pope to be Antichrist , or for that I would support the church of Rome in any of her abominations : but first , because the church of Rome doth not acknowledge the Pope to be Antichrist , and so cleaueth not to him as her head in that name : Secondly , because , although some Popes haue antichristianly said , that all spirituall grace and life is deriued from the Pope , and that some of their Parasites haue flatteringly acknowledged it , yet neither the representatiue church of Rome by it selfe , nor the popular by it selfe , much lesse the whole and entire body did euer yeeld vnto it ; but haue from time to time opposed themselues against it : especially if the question be of an absolute , foueraigne , and supreme head ; and not of a subordinate and ministeriall head , as you propound it : Thirdly , because in these spiritual things there is such a coniunction of good and euill in this life , that though the one cannot be separated from the other , yet the one is not confounded with the other ; so as each of them receiues its life seuerally from its owne head , and not from the head of the other : As it is in the regenerate man , in whom the flesh and the spirit are alwaies companions in this life ; yet so , as the flesh receiueth nothing from the holy Ghost , nor the spirit from Adams transgression . And so is it in the case wee haue in hand : for in the church of Rome there is an inseparable coniunction of Babylon and the people of God , yet so as Babylon receiues no grace from Christ , nor the people of GOD apostafie from the Pope , for being members of both in diuers respects , they haue grace from the one , and apostasie from the other , which in them are indeed nothing but flesh and spirit : And so much for his second Argument .

The third , pag. 34. hereof , is thus framed : A true visible Church hath the true markes of a true visible Church :

But the Church of Rome hath not those true markes . Ergo.

The Assumption whereof being to be denyed , hee proueth it partly from the doctrine of the Church of England , and partly from Bellarmine the mouth of the Church of Rome . For the Church of England , the Homily for Whitsunday saith : The true Church of Christ hath alwayes three notes or marks whereby it is knowne : Pure and sound doctrine , &c. Now if you would compare this with the Church of Rome , &c. To which I answer , That these words must receiue a fauourable construction ; or else they make as much against him , as against vs ; and with such construction they make more for vs , then for him . And what is this construction ? First , they must bee vnderstood of the accidentall truth of the Church in regard of soundnesse , ( as the words doe expresly import ) and not of essentiall truth in regard of Gods Couenant : Secondly , they must bee vnderstood euen of soundnesse comparatiuely , and not simply , that is , in regard of the Primitiue Church , and not otherwise . Else hee must grant , that the Church of Rome hath not beene a true visible Church these nine hundred yeares : where as he allowes it to haue beene so till the Councell of Trent , as appeareth in all this Discourse .

Now for Bellarmine ▪ I am sory such a superficiall . Reader should meddle with him , to the shame of our whole Nation : Marke how hee reasoneth ; Bellarmine disclaimeth these three as proper markes of the Church : Ergo the Church of Rome hath them not . I pray what consequence is here ? First may not a man disclaime that which he hath , for some si●ister respects best knowne to himselfe ? as pride , and presumption in medling in causes , and with persons too high for him , and the like ? Secondly , doth Bellarmine disclaime them simply , and not onely in comparison of meere proper markes ? Thirdly , may not the Church of Rome haue them as markes common to all Churches , true and false ; though not as proper to the true Church ? Fourthly , doth not Bellarmine De Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 2. § . Nostra autem sententia ( contradicting himselfe ) put these three into the definition of the Church ? and doth hee not by them distinguish the Church from all other sorts of men whatsoeuer ? Professione verae fidei , Sacramentorum communione , subiectione ad proprium Rastorem ? Fiftly , is it not a Maxime of Bellarmines , lib. 1. de Sacrament . in genere cap. 26. § . Respondeo , Sacramenta , that the Sacraments and the word of God , and the rest , semper solius esse Ecclesie , etiamsi interdum extra Ecclesia in inueniantur ? what dealing then is this , to play the Sophister so palpably à dicto secundum quid , ad 〈…〉 ? This is his third Argument . The fourth you shall finde pag. 35. to this purpose :

If the Church of Rome cannot demonstrate it selfe to bee a true Church , then it is no true Church :

But it cannot : Ergo 〈…〉

To this many things are to be answered ; because both propositions are to be denyed : The former , because it is inconsequent : First , because want of demonstration takes not away the truth and true being of any thing ; if it did , there are infinite things in the world , which should haue no being , or not be that which they are ; euen the Scripture it selfe should not be the word of God , because it cannot be demonstrated so to be , to a naturall man . Secondly , because want of ability to make demonstration , especially of the parties owne being , is much lesse able to doe it : for how many millions of men and women are there in the world , which should cease to be that they are , if that were true ? being vtterly vnable to demonstrate themselues so to be ? The latter proposition is to be denyed , because it is vntrue : for if by demonstration , you meane , the proofe of those three marks mentioned in the Homily ; the church of Rome can by them demonstrate her selfe to be a true Church ( according to the kinde and proportion of truth ) as well as any other Church : And all that will acknowledge her to bee a true Church , will and must acknowledge her to haue the true markes of the true Church , in the same degree of truth , wherein she is acknowledged to bee a true Church .

But you can proue by two arguments , that she cannot doe it : First , because Bellarmine is constrained to confesse , that all his 15. markes cannot make it euidently true , but onely euidently credible that it is a true Church : I answer , First this is not true ; Bellarmine saith no such thing : hee hath not the word Onely : but thus he speaketh ; Though they make it not euidently true , yet doe they make it euidently credible : yea hee distinguisheth betweene Heathens which admit not the Scriptures , and Christians which doe ; and saith , that to them it makes them euidently credible ; but to these euidently true as well as euidently credible : Lib. 4. de not is Eccles. cap. 3. § . Dicimus ergo . This therefore is not good dealing . Secondly , this is the same fallacy of arguing à dicto secundum quid , ad dictum simpliciter , wherein you offended afore :

He cannot doe it by these his fifteene markes ( say you : )

Ergo , he cannot doe it at all .

Is this a good kinde of reasoning ? Indeed it argueth his folly , or rather madnesse in forsaking those markes , which can demonstrate it , and cleaning to those which cannot doe it ; but it doth not proue that he cannot doe it by any other meanes .

In the second place therefore you indeauour to proue it by Romes owne doctrine , and confession : about her baptisme , ( the onely relique ( say you ) which some suppose is sufficient to proue her a true Church ) which is this , That the efficacy of baptisme depends vpon the Priests intention : whereof because no man can be certaine , therefore no man can bee certaine whether hee were rightly baptised ; and so cannot bee certaine that he is a true member of the Church : From which confession you reason thus :

That which no one Papist can demonstrate , all of them put together cannot demonstrate :

But no one of them can demonstrate himselfe to be a true member of the Church : Ergo , not all together .

And what the ?

That Church whose members either seuerally or together cannot demonstrate themselues to bee members of the true Church , cannot demonstrate her selfe to be a true Church :

But the members of the Church of Rome , neither seuerally , nor together can doe it :

Ergo , She her selfe cannot doe it .

That I may giue a full and sufficient answer to this large argument , which is taken from Romes owne doctrine and confession : I must signifie vnto him ; that it seemes to me that he knowes not what Romes doctrine and confession in this point is : First therefore hee must know , that the Church of Rome hath not yet determined fully what the intention of the Priest in baptising , or of the Bishop in ordaining is : They say indeed , that a virtuall intention is sufficient , without the actuall , or habituall : But what is that virtuall intention ? Some say , that the very pronouneing of the words , I baptise thee , &c. are sufficient thereto ; Nec aliud requiri ex parte ministri , and that there is no more required on the behalfe of the Minister : So Thomas , Part. 3. de Sacr. qu. 64. art. 8. ad 2. and so Catharine the Bishop of Minori in the Councell of Trent , held and affirmed : And Bellarmine himselfe though of the contrary opinion , ( viz. that the inward intention of the Priest is required ) yet is constrained to distinguish de perfectione Sacramenti ; simpliciter , & absolutè ; & de perfectione eiusdem coram hominibus : and so agreeth , that if wee respect the perfection of the Sacrament before men , the outward prolation of the words is sufficient . Lib. 1. de Sacr. in genere , cap. 28. § . Ad locum obiectum .

Secondly , hee must know what certainty it is which the Church of Rome meaneth , when she confesseth that no man can be certaine of the intention of the Priest : for shee distinguisheth of certainty in this case : One is certainty of faith , which is infallible ; another humane , and morall ; the former shee confesseth cannot ordinarily bee had : but the latter may : which she accounteth to be sufficient ; and this comes full to Vega ; who denieth infallible certaintie of saluation ; because no man can haue infallible certainty of the truth of his baptisme , for want of the like certainty of the Priests intention : but on the contrary , for morall and coniecturall certainty , he acknowledgeth that a man may and ought to haue it of the Priests intention , ( vnlesse hee declare his naughty minde by some outward signe ) and so of the truth of his baptisme ; and lastly of his owne saluation . For which distinction see Bellarmine vbi supra . § . Respondeo , non debere hominem .

These things premised , his Arguments are easily answered . First therefore the Assumption of the last is denied : for they professe themselues able to demonstrate both seuerally and together that they are true members of the true Church ; because they haue sufficient certaintie of the truth of their Baptisme ; because they haue a like sufficient certaintie of the Priests intent on ; leaning secrets vnto God ; and so all that is builded hereon , that the Church cannot demonstrate her selfe to bee a true Church , falls flat to the ground ; which may also be said of the intention of the Bishop in ordaining . Secondly , how can hee proue the Assumption , vnlesse he goe through all the Church of Rome from man to man , and from woman to woman , and examine what they can say for the truth of their Baptisme . It is twenty to one , but some one or other can shew a Reuelation , that the Priest had an actuall intention to doe as the Church doth in baptising him : Thirdly , they say they can say as much to assure them of the Priests intention in their Baptisme , as we which are baptised in our infancie , can say to assure vs that we were baptised : which is onely the Church booke , and testimonie of our Parents , Godfathers , Godmothers and other friends , which is onely humane , morall & coniecturall assurance , and not diuine and infallible , See Bellarmine vbi supra . § Et Nota. So much for the fourth .

The last Argument pag. 32. is this :

That Church which wants the ordinary meanes of saluation , is no true Church :

But the Church of Rome wants the ordinary meanes of saluation , the preaching , and hearing of the Gospell : yea it teacheth hers , to hate and abhorre it , and to call it heresie .

Ergo.

I answer they want it , & they want it not : They hate it , and they hate it not : They want and hate the soundnes , and puritie thereof , as it is enioyed in the Reformed Churches ; but they neither want nor hate it , as it is corrupted by their owne traditions ; which cannot wholly depriue it of all sauing vertue , as hath been already prooued . And why ( I pray ) should wee not bee content in common commiseration to beare with them in this case ; as we doe with those people which dwell in fenny , foggy & marish grounds , and countries , who comming into places of fresh ayre , and healthy dyet , doe complaine that it is not good nor wholsome , because it agrees not with their more grosse constitution ? If another man liue by poysoned meates , I will not enuie him , so long as I feede on that which is sound , and mans meate ( as wee say . ) And so much for his Arguments .

Thus haue I shewed Mr. Burtons second point of disorder in misplacing his Arguments ; and haue ( as well as I can ) righted it , and answered them . The third and last followes , which are his idle Repetitions , and Tautologies ; which if they were taken out of his booke , it would bee by the one halfe , lesse then it is : as will appeare by the answer to the particulars .

Now here I must craue fauor of the Christian Reader , that ( being constrained by the misbehauiour of our aduersary , to lay open his foule ouer-sights , in charging the Church of Rome , the Councell of Trent , and Bellarmine with vntruths , which hee ought not to haue done ) hee would not suppose me to be any whit inclining or addicted to Poperie ( as the manner of the world is now-a dayes . ) No : I praise God I am as farr from Popery , as M. Burton himselfe is or can be . But I would not haue men eyther to maintaine bad causes against the Church of Rome , or to maintaine good causes with bad arguments , and least of all to maintaine bad causes with worse arguments , ( as I know too many haue done to our no little disaduantage ) . It is an excellent point of manhood to let the enemy haue his vtmost due ; and not to ●eelie to ouercome him by base and cowardly meanes . This I desire , and haue alwayes endeoured ; and this is all which hitherto I haue done in this Treatise , or purpose to doe hereafter . And if the good Reader will be placed to beleeue mee , and to grant me this reasonable motion ; I hope hee shall perceiue that I haue not abused either him , or mine aduersary , or my cause , or my Lord , ( whose cause I haue vndertaken ) or my selfe in vndertaking it : and so I proceede .

BVRTON .

Before wee proceede to the third Viall , for the fuller confirmation of what hath beene said of the estate of the church of Rome , whose Sea of doctrines is all turned into mortall blood in the second viall : it will bee very requisite here to discusse one question :

Whether the Church of Rome be eyther a true Church , or a true visible Church ?

Answer .

Here is a long Exordium to a short Cause : of which it may truely be said , Causaanceps , Exordium vitiosum : Such a Cause , such an Exordium ; Such a Cup , such a Couer In which ( containing a whole lease ) hee craueth fauour and attention , after the manner of the Orators , from three Rhetoricall arguments ; The qualitie of the question His owne good handling there of and The condition of his owne person , The question affords him two fauourable arguments : One , for that it is requisite to be discussed in this place : Another , for that it is waightie and of great moment . The necessitie of the discussion is for the fuller confirmation of that hee hath said of the Church of Rome . And indeede it is very necessary that hee proue , and that very substantially and soundly ( as hee saith in the words following ) That the Church of Rome is neyther a true , nor a true visible Church ; or else all hee hath said is nor worth a rush . For if it be , then is not her Sea of Doctrines turned into mortall blood in this second Viall : nor the Councell of Trent this Sea of mortall blood , nor Chemnitius the Angell , nor any thing so as hee hath said . But marke here ( I pray ) his Circulation : Before , he proued the Church of Rome to bee no true Church , because all her doctrines are mortall : and now hee proues all her doctrines to be mortall , because 〈◊〉 is no true Church , which manner of reasoning goes for currant with him , 〈◊〉 all this part of his Treatise . But let that passe . Now if his answers proue no better then his arguments haue done ( as I doubt they will not , ) it had beene farre more requisite for him to haue left this question altogether indiscussed in this place , and to haue proceeded directly to the third Viall without any more adoe ; for so both hee and his followers might haue fallen into the ditch without any obseruation ; whereas now all the world must take notice thereof to their shame and discredit .

BVRTON .

A question of so much the greater moment , by how much some , by their ●o small authoritie , and no lesse renowned opinion in the Church , doe so sway the ballance on that side , that many ill affected , & of the aduerse party , taking the aduantage , are apt to catch the word out of their mouth , and to say , Thy mother Church of Rome , &c.

Answer .

This is the second Argument by which the Question begs him some fauou●● for indeed it cannot be d●●yed to be very waightie , tending either to the admission or expulsion of many millions of soules eyther into , or out of the Church of Christ . But both his comparatiue amplification , and his Rhetoricall anticipation ( by the one whereof hee would breede enuy to his aduersaries , not onely for oppressing the truth with their authoritie , and estimation in the Church ; but also for giuing a perillous , and vnseasonable aduantage to the Papists , and popishly affected : and by the other would free himselfe and his from fault ) I say both of these doe admit many , and those very iust exceptions . For first , who are those some in authoritie in the Church , of whom he speaketh ? I doubt not but hee meaneth his elect aduersaries , & other reuerend Fathers , and Ministers of our Church , who are of a contrary opinion to him : But our worthy fellow , and friend , M. William Bedle ( now Rector of the Colledge and Vniuersitie of Dubline ) in his Letters to Waddesworth , pag. 75. tels him , and that in truth , That this opinion is not onely fauoured of many great Scholars in England , but is the common opinion of all the best Diuines of the Reformed Churches that are , or haue beene in the world . And it is so well known to the common Aduersaries , that Brierley in his Apologie of the Romane Church , Tract . 1. Sect. 6. Subdivis . 3. And Smith in his booke of the Author and essence of the Protestant Church and R●ligion , Lib. 1. cap. 2. haue made whole Catalogues of them ; wherein you shall finde truly billed , The Augustane Confession , Luther , Caluin , Iunius , Zanchius , Plessaeus , Bucanus , Polanus , Saravia , Boysseul , Vorstius , and Martyr : And of our owne , King Iames , Andrewes , Hooker , Covell , Whitaker , Moreton , Feild , Powel , Reinolds , White , and Hall our reuerend Diocesan , our ioy & crowne , and your meeke , and sweet spirited aduersary , as you truly call him , pag. 52. To whom they adde by necessary consequence many more , as Beza , Melancthon , Pappus , Schusselburge , Ioannes Regius , Leonardus Crentremius , Whitgift , Lubbertus , Brentius , Magdeburgenses , Da●aeus , Iuel , Fulk , Bale , Zuinglius , Bucer , Molinaeus , Bell , Mason , Sadeel , yea and Perkins himselfe , who of all the rest seemes to be furthest off from this opinion ; but these they adde , because they allow them the Couenant , the calling of Pastors , the holding of all the necessary points of the foundation , and saluation it selfe , which being granted , the true Church cannot be denyed vnto them .

Loe these are the some , which sway the ballance on the contrary side to you , being indeed of no small authority , and ●o less renownd opinion in the church ; And not some few in our Church of note and authority , as you would insinuate .

Secondly , who are those many ill affected , and of the aduerse partie , who take aduantage hereof ? and when did they do it ? you would make the world beleeue that this were a new thing occasioned by these some in authority , whom you haue made your aduersaries : But they are no lesse then the whole Church of Rome , and that euen from our first separation from her ; as may appeare by the Apologies of all the reformed Churches ; and by Bellarmine : thirteenth note of the Church de Eccles. lib. 4. cap. 16. Sect. Idem de Haereticis , herein therefore you are greatly to bee blamed .

Thirdly , what is the aduantage which they take ? and what is the perill thereof ? doubtlesse some extraordinarie thing ( I warrant you ) neuer heard of , before these men gaue it in these luke-warme , indifferent , neutralizing dayes ; Thy Mother Church of Rome ; forsooth : A perillous aduantage , I promise you ; To acknowledge that truth in luke-warme times , which was alwayes openly knowne and professed : For whoeuer denyed , but wee were sometimes members of that Church ? and with what face can it be denied ? of which I may well say , ( as Saint Paul said in another case ) if it be perilous , it is perilous to them that perish , in whom the god of this world hath blinded their eyes that they should beleeue lyes , because they neuer entertained the truth in loue ; and if to them it bee perilous , let it be perilous ; their blood be vpon their owne heads : If we testifying our loue and good opinion of them in the bowells of Christ Iesus ; they turne it to their owne perdition ; wee are not vnder bondage in this case : But if any aduantage be to be taken in this respect , vndoubtedly ( saith worthy Bedel , vbi supra ) we haue it of them , and not they of vs , in that what we doe , we doe it of charity ; but they of ignorance , or malice , or both .

BVRTON .

Popery hath learned to get ouer the stile againe fast enough without our helpe .

Answer .

Master Burton ; do we helpe Popery ( as it were an old dogge ) ouer the stile againe , in acknowledging this truth ? No , this is Non causa pro causa : If this would haue helped , the stile had neuer beene made ; that which helpeth it ouer is the iust iudgement of God for our sinnes ; and especially for the contempt of the sincere truth of the Gospell : and not the maintaining of any truth : let vs truly repent of them , and I dare be bold to say in the name of God , that , This shall neuer helpe Popery more either now , or hereafter , then it hath done alwaies heretofore .

BVRTON .

Though it were true that the church of Rome were a true Church yet the countenancing or pressing of it in these times might very well be spared .

Answer .

Indeed you are the onely religious Politician of these times , and know better what is to bee done in these cases , then they that sit at the sterne : There is no man so senslesse ( I suppose ) but he knowes , that all truths are not either to be published , vrged , or countenanced at all times . There is a time for all things , ( saith Salomon ) A time to keepe silence , and a time to speake : But when these times are , it were farre better for you , and me , and all priuate persons to leaue to the wisedome of our Gouernours , then to prescribe any thing to them therein : But now a dayes all men will be Priuy Councellors ; and he is a very dolt , that cannot gouern the whole State , Church , and Kingdome , far better then now it is gouerned . So much for the amplification .

BVRTON .

But why then ( say they ) doe others cry downe the Church of Rome for no true Church at all 〈◊〉 Surely , this was a fault , if it were an vntruth : For giue the deuill his due ( as we say . ) It is good therefore that all men be well aduised in this point , in speaking of the Church of Rome Pro or contra , as a true church or no ; it being a matter not to be maintained by finenesse of wit , or quaint rhetoricall discourse , but vpon sound ground , & substantiall demonstration .

Answer .

This is your anticipation ; wherein you answer a supposed obiection , therby to free your selfe from fault in crying downe the truth , and true visibility of the Church of Rome ; It is no fault ( say you ) because it is no vntruth : But you know that is the question : And besides , haue you so soone forgotten your owne policy ? That though it were true , yet the countenancing , or pressing of it in these times might very well bee spared ? Can you imagine that in these lukewarme , indifferent , neutralizing dayes , you shall not find enow that will take vp the bucklers against you ? will you giue the onset , and bee faultlesse ? and shall they only that oppose you be the offenders ? there is no reason at all for that ; In a mutiny it is hard but both sides will bee found faulty : well then ; Let the Deuill haue his due ( say you ; and so say I too ) yet it is good ( say you ) that all men be well aduised in this point , &c. Let this word stand : Only I craue that it may not be taken for granted ( which you rhetorically beg of your friends , ) that you haue the sound grounds , and substantiall demonstrations ; and that wee haue nothing but finenesse of wit , and quaint rhetoricall discourses : and vpon these termes let the cause bee determined : And so much for the quality of the question .

BVRTON .

Now for the more cleare and full , yet briefe discussion of the point , it shall suffice onely to answer such arguments as are vsed for it ; whereupon the positiue truth will easily be concluded .

Answer .

Now you come to the second argument of your Exordium , by which you scrape acquaintance with your Readers ; which is , a promise to handle this question well ; that is , clearly , fully , and briefly ; to which end you thinke it sufficient to answer such arguments as are vsed against you : But how you offend herein I haue shewed already .

BVRTON .

Wherein I must craue pardon , hauing to deale in so weighty a cause , and with such mighty Authors , as haue already tanquam e Cathedra defined it . But God forbid that the try all of truth should depend vpon the opinion of any mans person ; though neuer so great , or esteemed in the opinion of the learned . My brethren ( saith Saint Iames ) haue not the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ , the Lord of glory , with respect of persons : And 〈…〉 Saint Augustine against Maximinus an Arrian Bishop , said ) Nec ●u mihi Ariminense , nec ego tibi Nicenum Concilium objiciam , &c.

Answer .

This is the third argument taken from the condition of your person , being so weake and vnworthy to deale in such a cause , and with such Authors : wherein first you craue pardon of your boldnes , and after cleare your selfe of such imputations , as may be laid to your charge : For the former ; it is counted the part of an vnwise man to craue pardon of a fault , when it is in his owne power not to offend : If it bee a fault , why would you runne into it ? if it be none , why do you craue pardon ? But indeed it cannot be denied to be a great fault for any man to meddle in matters too high , and with persons too great for him , if Dauid , Psalm . 131. 1. and Siracides , Ecclus , 8. 1. say true : For as Py●●acus counselled his friend in the case of mariage to doe as the ●●ies playing with top & scourge , said one to another , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : T● tibi su 〈…〉 rem : Take to thy selfe thy peere 〈…〉 is it good 〈◊〉 euery man to contend with his match , and not to meddle with his betters , vnlesse he will befoole himselfe in the end But it is the triall of truth ( you say ) and God forbid that should depend vpon the opinion of any mans person : True : But first a man must be sure of a warrant for his doing ; for euery man may not contend with his betters in triall of truth vpon his owne head . Secondly , he must not behaue himselfe lawe●ly ( as you do here ) saying they haue defined the contrary , tanquam è Cathedra : Else it may fall out ( as you say to the Papists , pag. 24. ) that God forbid will not serue the turne : neither will S. Iames ( who would not haue many mast 〈…〉 s ) speake for you : nor Saint Augustine ( who contended with his fellow Bishop ) plead for you . And so much for your petition .

BVRTON .

Nor let any man here impute presumption to the weakness or vnworthinesse of my person , as though I tooke a pride to bee 〈…〉 edling with such high matters , and wherein great ones are interessed : Alas , God knowes , I take so little pride herein , &c.

Answer .

Come wee now to your purgation , wherein you cleare your selfe of pride and presumption by way of anticipation : Some man perhaps would say , Vbi dolor , ibi digitus ; and that where men are guilty of greatest weaknesse , there they make greatest preparation ; and that when a man cleares himselfe without an accuser , Aliquid latet , quod non patet : But seeing you call God to witnes , I had rather beleeue you , then suspect you ; yet giue me leaue to tell you what I could say against you , if I were disposed ; notwithstanding all you can say for your selfe to the contrary . First , Dauid , vbi supra , makes it an infallible note of pride to be exercised in matters and with persons of this quality . Secondly , many passages in this your second Viall ( to goe no further ) do send forth a ranke sauor of some such thing : as first , those words , Though it were true , that the Church of Rome were a true Church , yet the countenanting , or pressing it in these times , might very well bee spared ; which are very high : So those ; It is good for all men to be well aduised in this point , it being a matter not to be maintained by finenesse of wit , &c. wherein you couertly praise your selfe , and dispraise your aduersaries intollerably . So those , I must craue pardon , hauing to deale with such Authors , as haue already tanquam 〈◊〉 Cathedra defined the cause . Insolent words . Then those , Cucullus non facit Monachum ; which is as much as if you had said , A Rochet makes not a Bishop . And those , What a strange doctrine is this for a learned Doctor ( and more then so ) of the Church of England ) to teach ? Doth he not deserue to be the Popes white sonne for it ? which are words of reproach . Finally those , Now let the Reuerend Author iudge indifferentlie , hauing well waighed the former reasons , whether wee doe ill or no in taking this his saying ill ; or whether wee had not reason to haue expected an ingenuous Palinodie , or Augustine like retraction , rather then such an Apologie ; which whether it be rather to bee pitied , then any vncharitablenesse in the reader in taking such a saying ill ; let iudicious charity it selfe iudge : where may a man finde pride , if here bee none ? yet for all this , you professe many things to the contrary ; as first that

BVRTON .

My heart is euen torne in sunder , to see the rufull rents of the Church of God , and the truth so opposed , so oppressed .

Answer .

But Ieremie tells you , the heart is deceitfull aboue measure ; and the learned say , that it is not so deceitfull in any thing as in pride ; in so much as if it were possible to be without pride , yet would it be proud that it is not proud : and so euen while your heart is torne in sunder with sorrow , you may be proud in exercising your selfe in things , and with persons that be too high , notwithstanding .

BVRTON .

And when Gods glory suffers , pardon mee , if I professe my selfe a poore defendent .

Answer .

What ? without a calling ? might not Vzza put forth his hand to stay the shaking of the Arke , and may you doe it ? But wherein ( I pray ) doth Gods glorie suffer any thing in our case ? Is it any dishonour to God to be faithfull in keeping his couenant for euer , euen with his enemies ? Is not this the highest point of his glorie , wherein of all the rest he most glorieth ? O Master Burton , pretend not the glorie of God , against the glory of God , there is nothing more easie , more vsuall , more dangerous .

BVRTON .

Yea , my profession , not onely as a Christian , but much more as a Minister of the Gospel , bindes me to it .

Answere .

Then let all Christendome goe together by the eares , and let Ministers bee the Ring-leaders and Boutefewes .

BVRTON .

And I know that God regardeth no mans person .

Answer .

True : But he will haue all men to be sure of a warrant for their doings .

BVRTON .

And as the prouerbe is , Cucullus non facit Monachum .

Answere .

Neither doth the wearing of a Lions skin , make a Lyon .

BVRTON .

And were it not a matter so nearly concerning the glory of God , and the saluation of Mens soules , I had far rather sit mee downe in safe and sweet silence , wherein I should haue the more opportunitie to pray for the peace of Ierusalem , then any way stand vp to contend .

Answere .

Indeede this is the thing which of all other you had most need to purge your selfe of . This contentious humor which ( some say ) is predominant in you : for ( if Salomon say true ) a man so qualified must needes bee presumptuous : And how doe you doe it ? You pretend againe the glory of God . But you haue heard that that may be but a colour . Next , the saluation of mens soules : But how can that be , when you damne all Papists to the Deuill ? Thirdly , your choise of priuate retirednesse : But that is questionable . Lastly , your deuotion : But Quid verba audiam , cum facta vidiam ?

BVRTON .

But it is Gods quarrell , and that against Babylon .

Answer .

First , let that be proued : then let God bee a God of order , and not of confusion .

BVRTON .

Peace is beautifull indeed ; but there is a what peace ? In which regard Christ the Prince of peace said , I came not to send peace into the earth , but a sword . As faire as peace is , wee must not make an Idoll of it , we must keepe Christs peace .

Answer .

God forbid else : But we must know then of what spirit we are . Wee haue had late experience of the too 〈◊〉 desire of many forward spirits to breake our peace , and to vnsheathe the sword , but I cannot be perswaded , that eyther this is Christs sword , o● that that was not Christs p●●be .

BVRTON .

And in these perillous dayes it being almost as dangerous to bee ignorant of the mystery of iniquitie ; as of the mystery of Godlinesse ; let no man thinke it labour superfluous , or presumptuous , to search out the true mysterie of Popery .

Answer .

You say well : But first you must not doe it like Skogan , as well where it is not , as where●● is : Then , you must not doe it so , that you take away all the mystery thereof at one blow , by denying the Romane Church to bee a true , or true visible Church of Christ : ●or where then is any mysterie ? Is there any mysterie in Iudaisme , ●urcisme , or Paganisme .

BVRTON .

But ( I say ) in this 〈◊〉 kinde of 〈…〉 vpon 〈◊〉 .

Answer .

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 est Necessitie , with a great N. hath imposed this task vpon you , and woe be to you if you do it not : If you had said so much a first , it had beene enough . This is that I expected all this while : but I hope I shall make it appeare , that this Necessitie was neuer of Gods imposition . And so much for your Preface : Let vs now examine your sound and substantiall Answers .

But here I must admonish the Reader , that he dealeth with three seuerall Authors : with two hee contendeth very briefly , and with a kinde of neglect , about saluation in the Church of Rome : with the third ( being a Reuerend Antistes of the Church of England ) hee findeth himselfe more to do : & that ( as I suppose ) because a kinde of Necessity hath imposed this taske vpon him .

BVRTON .

The first maine Argument , which would conclude the Church of Rome to be a true Church , is , because ( say they ) a man in that Church may be saued : for out of the Church no saluation ; Therefore the Church of Rome must be a true Church .

Answer .

These words , ( as should seeme by the words say they ) are common to both the former Authors : who ( if they haue framed their maine argument no better ) are worthy to be blamed ; vnlesse it were done popularly without suspition of opposition ; as it may very well bee supposed : The argument is this . Out of the true Church of Christ there is no saluation : In the Church of Rome there is saluation Ergo , The Church of Rome is not out of the true Church of Christ .

BVRTON .

Who are they that may bee saued in the Church of Rome ? My Author expresseth , An bonest ignorant Papist , or some ignorant silly soules &c. yea , and this is deliuered in the name of our Church , or at least of all those , that being affected to the Church of Rome in some good measure , would seeme to bee the Church of England .

Answer .

Whether you deale well with your Authors or no I know not : for you do not seuer them so wel as you should ; and indeed wee shall finde in the end , that you might well haue ioyned them together as one man ; for any disagreement that can be found between them : It seemes here you haue to doe with one onely : for I must goe by guesse ; not knowing wel what to make of your answer : you seeme to deny the Assumption of the Argument , by demanding who may bee saued in the Church of Rome ? and then bring in your author answering in the name of the Church of England : and indeed ( taking the words you haue related , in a good sense , as I doubt not but the Author meant them , and not as you misconstrue them ) they may well be deliuered , not onely in the name of our Church ; but of all the reformed Churches in the world .

Author .

We acknowledge an honest ignorant Papist may be saued ; and we haue not so learned Christ , as to deny saluation to some ignorant silly soules , whose humble peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men , that professe the foundation Christ .

BVRTON .

This makes well for Popish ignorance when all failes . This also giues liberty to any Religion , so it professe the foundation Christ , that therein a man may be saued .

Answer .

First , here is a good beginning with a notable point of sophistrie , ex compositione dividendorum : for he confounds two kindes of ignorance , which are as different one from another , as membra diuidentia can be : for better vnderstanding whereof , we are to remember , that there are two kindes of ignorance : one negatiue , another priuatiue , ( as the Schoolemen speake ) The former is the ignorance of that which was neuer reuealed ; or not reuealed sufficiently to procure distinct knowledge : The latter is the ignorance of that which a man might haue knowne distinctly if hee would . These two are commonly called simple , & affected ignorance : Simple because a man is alwaies readie to embrace the knowledge of the truth , when it shall please God to reueale it : Affected , because a man delights in darknesse more then light , that his euill deeds may not be reproued : and both of these may befall the learnedest man in the world : As the former did Saint Paul before his conuersion ; and some of the Rulers of the Iewes , as Saint Peter testifieth , Acts 3. 17. and as the latter did other of those Rulers who closed their eyes that they might not see , Mat. 13. 15. Now of these , the Author means the former onely , which is protestant ignorance as well as popish ; and the Answerer abuseth him in vnderstanding him of the latter ; which indeed is true popish ignorance , and no other ; for then a man is popishly ignorant , when he pleaseth himselfe in his ignorance , and is taught so to doe ; and not when hee is willing to know , if hee had the meanes : and who doubteth but there are many millions of such in the Church of Rome , which are those ignorant ●illy soules of whom the Author speaketh .

Secondly , hee changeth the state of the question ; for whereas the Author saith such ignorants may bee saued among any part of mankind that profess the foundation Christ ; that is , in any Christian Church ; he turnes it into any Religion professing Christ ; which is not the question : for the question is of the Church , and not of the Religion : and from hence he proceeds cunningly to his first question : Whether any ●apist may bee saued by his religion : But here let it be acknowledged , that wee agree with S. Augustiue , lib. 1. de Baptis ▪ contra Donatistas : That the societies of all Heretiques , so farre as they retaine the profession of sauing truth , and the ministration of the Sacrament of Baptisme , are so farre forth still conioyned with the Catholique Church of God ; which in and by them bringeth forth children vnto God : Marke his words , Ecclesia Orthodoxa ( saith hee ) non Haeresis per Christi Baptismum generat , qui generantur filij Dei etiam inter Haereticos .

BVRTON .

But here two questions would be resolued : First whether any Papist by his religion may be saued .

Answer .

Here hee diuideth one question into two , and maketh two Authors differ in opinion , which agree in one : And for the first question , it was neuer moued by any thing I can perceiue from his Authors . The question is , Whether any man liuing and dying a Papist , or member of the Church of Rome may be saued ; and not , Whether any Papist may be saued by his religion . This therfore is a trick of Leigerdumaine , worthie such as pretend Gods glorie in hypocrifie .

BVRTON .

For resolution , The Author rankes all Papists into two sorts ; either learned , or silly ignorants . For the learned , hee confesseth it is very hard for them to be saued ; but if ignorant more easie .

Answer .

If his Author doe as hee saith ; hee marres a good cause in the handling ; but I doubt he belies him , especially if this which he hath related be all that he saith . For these word● doe not imply a diuision of all Papists into learned and silly ignorants ; but of ignorant Papists into simple , and wilfull ignorants ; and for the wilfull , he confesseth it impossible for them to be saued , ( if they so abide , ) whether they be learned or vnlearned ; but the simple , whether learned or vnlearned ( in his opinion ) may be saued : and so thinke I too .

BVRTON .

So then if a Papist be saued , he may thanke his ignorance .

Answer .

Was there euer any man in the world which would make such an inference ? Saint Paul was a persecutor , blasphemer , and wrong doer , but he obtained mercy because hee did it ignorantly in vnbeleefe : So then that Saint Paul obtaine 〈◊〉 , he may thanke his ignorance and vnbeleefe . Apage . No , this is all that can bee inferred there from ; that such ignorance as this , 〈◊〉 not ponereobicem ( as the Schoolmen speake ) that is , lay a blocke in the way to saluation , as the other doth ; he may bee saued , notwithstanding this ignorance , though not for this ignorance , because it excuseth à tanto though not à totp : from the degree of sinne , though not from all sinne .

BVRTON .

But Christ the foundation is there prosessed well : but how with popish ignorance teach a man to bee saued by Christ ? Faith comes by 〈…〉 ting , and without faith no saluation by Christ : But all Papists are taught to hate and abhorre 〈◊〉 preaching of the word ; how then is it possible they should be saued ? be they neuer so humble and peaceable Men.

Answer .

The farther , the worse : doth it follow vpon any thing that hath been said , that Popish ignorance will teach a man to be saued by Christ , when it hath bin reno●nced as damnable ? Nay wee should shew our selues ideots , if wee should say , simple ignorance can doe it : But how then are these ignorants saued by Christ ? why by faith ( man ) which comes by hearing the word preached : yea but they haue it not , nor can haue it ; yea they abhorre it , and are taught so to doe . Fie for shame , that a man so well studied in the mystery of iniquitie , should be either so ignorant therein , or so ill affected to affirme so grosse an vntruth : Reade the Councell of Trent , Sess. 5. cap. 2. & 24. cap. 4. and see whether this bee true which he faith : It seemes hee hath not beene beholden to any of those many Cart-loads of Homilies , Sermons , Postills , Meditations , Hiemals and Aestiualls , which are so diligently preached in the Church of Rome , and farre better , more soundly , and diligently since that Councell , then before : To which many of our : ordinary Preachers are much beholden : And I would they were not better taught there in some places , then ours are ( dole●s dico ) in many Churches in England , Wales , and Ireland : Indeed they are taught to hate our Preachers as heretickes , and our preaching as heresie ; but if he say therof that they haue none at all , or hate all , he deceiues himselfe , and others with his old fallacie , à dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter : And if he say their preaching cannot breed true sauing faith , I pitie him .

BVRTON .

As if a Papist though neuer so simple could be humble ; there can be no greater pride , then that which hee takes in his ignorance ; and can he be peaceable , whose chiefe article of his Creed is to beleeue the Pope to be supreme ●uer all Kings and princes , &c.

Answer .

If the thinke all Papists to bee such as he speakes of , hee is not onely vncharitable , but foolish . Those simple and silly ignorants , of which the Author speaketh , both may be , and 〈◊〉 humble , and peaceable , notwithstanding the pride and rebellion of the Po 〈…〉 orants , and besides , how doth their 〈◊〉 perie hinder them fro● humilitie and peaceablenesse , when their Kings and Princes themselues will haue them so to beleeue and hold ?

BVRTON .

This is the beasts marke , which who so receiueth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God , Reuel. 14. 9. No Papist then as a Papist can be saued .

Answer .

That the beleefe of the Popes supremacie in all spirituall things and causes , is the Beasts marke , is Petitio principij . And that all Papists doe receiue the Beasts marke is false ; vnlesse hee will say none of them all are written in the Lambes booke of life , A Reuel. 13. 8. Which I 〈…〉 not say . The Conclusion i● altogether without premisse 〈…〉 if hee will-conclude any thing 〈…〉 That 〈◊〉 apist can be saued and not that No Papist 〈…〉 Papistoan be saued ? For the Ang 〈…〉〈…〉 No 〈…〉 marke : Ergo , No papist can be saued .

BVRTON .

And of Babylon ( saith God ) Come out of her my people , left ye be partakers of her sinnes , Reuel . 18. Babylon the dominion , and religion of the beast , of Antichrist ; Nothing then therein to be expected , but the punishment of Babels sinnes .

Answer .

Babylon doth not alwayes signifie the dominion , and religion of the beast : sometimes it is taken 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , for the very Citie , that is , the seate of his dominion , the Citie of Rome , and so is it to be vnderstood , Reuel . 18. And for the Conclusion , I say the same I said of the former ; that it hath no premisses for all that can well be concluded is this ; That God calleth his people out of the ●itie of Rome , when 〈◊〉 is vpon the point of destrsction , that they may not bodily perish with the wicked ▪ 〈◊〉 I hope hee will noisay that Gods people may 〈…〉 ingly pelish with them , though for a time they sh〈…〉 with them 〈◊〉〈◊〉 sinnes , and temporall punishments , as often , and ordinarily they doe . So much for the first question , and for the first Author .

The second question and Author .

May not a simple Papist miss-led by education or long custome , or ouer-valuing the soueraigntie of the Romane Church , & Io in the simplicitie of his heart imbracing them , find mercy at Gods hands , by a general repentance , and faith in the merit of Christ , attended with charitie , and other vertues ?

BVRTON .

Here the state of the former question is quite altered : by Faith , and Repontance no doubt , not onely an ignorant Papist , but euen an Infidell may finde mercy , &c.

Answere .

It is not true , the state it still the same , for the humble & 〈…〉 able obedience of the former question implyeth the Faith and Repentence required in this question for without true faith and repentance , there can be no humble and peaceable obedience : And so it is true which I said before , that hee diuideth one question into two , and maketh his Authors differ , which agree in one . Besides , I would desire him to tell , why there hee denyed humilitie and peaceable behauiour to all Papists , and yet here affords them Faith & Repentance to saluation ? To this he answereth .

BVRTON .

But withall this silly Papist beleeuing and repenting , must necessarily repent him of all his Idolatry , as well as of all his other sinnes : yes ( saith the Author ) by a generall repentance and faith : what a strange doctrine is this for a learned Doctor to teach ? Surely Bellarmine himselfe , with the whole rabble of Pontificians could doe no more , &c.

Answer .

See here how Sarcastically hee writeth of the most wholsome , and Catholike doctrine of generall Faith and Repentance ; and of the Author for teaching it : who if hee be a Doctor of the Church of England , his fault is the greater : for why should this be Popish doctrine in his mouth , which in Perkinses is sound and orthodoxe ? Doth not he say plainly in his Treatise of Repentance , cap. 1. § Neither is this to trouble any ; That as God requires particular repentance for knowne sinnes , so he accepts a generall repentance for such as be vnknowne ? And doth he not say also in the same place , That sound Repentance for one speciall sinne , brings with it Repentance for all sinnes ? And doth hee not say elsewhere , ( Booke of Cases , lib. 1. cap. 2. Sect. 3. paragraph , But some may say ) That , The greater this simple ignorance is , the lesser is the sinne ? and that if we be carefull to obey God according to our knowledge , hauing withall a care and desire to increase in the knowledge of God , and his will , God will haue vs excused . And is not this the selfe-same ( mutatis mutandis ) which this Author or Doctor hath deliuered ? If the Pope and Bellarmine , and the whole rabble of Pontificians would say no worse then so , it would be the best daies worke wee did these seuenty yeares to be reconciled .

BVRTON .

But doth this generall repentance include Idolatry , with all popish trumpery , as things to bee repented of ? If not , such repentance shall neuer bring him to saluation .

Answer .

Wee grant all : This Repentance includeth all vnknowne sinnes ; and so all Idolatry , and all other popish trumperie .

BVRTON .

If it doe include them , then by faith in Christs merits he comes to be saued , not as a Papist , but as a true beleeuer , renouncing Popery , and then no Godamercy to his popery , or to his silly ignorance .

Answer .

Loc here is the vpshot of all ; this is his strong hold , wherein hee puts his whole trust in this question : And yet ( God knowes ) it is but a meere starting hole ; as poore a shift , and euasion , as euer man can vse . Here then let it be obserued , that hee vseth two points of Sophistry , and one of Folly : of Sophistry , first in the word Papist ; secondly , in the word renouncing . The word Papist is ambiguous , sometime it is vsed sensu composito , ( as the Schoolemen speake ) or largely : sometimes sensu diviso , or strictly . In the compound sense it signifieth ( to inuert the words of Perkins ) an vnreformed Catholike , that is , one that holds the same necessary heads of Religion with the Protestant Churches ; yet so as he retaines all errours in doctrine , whereby the said religion is corrupted in the Church of Rome , ignorantly supposing them to bee the truth of God . In the diuided sense it fignifies one that holds the errours of the Church of Rome , without respect to the orthodoxe truth maintained therein . Now to apply this to our purpose ; when wee say a papist may bee saued , wee vnderstand it in the former & more large sense . And when the saith ; a papist cannot be saued , he vnderstands it in the latter , and more strict sense , and so we are all agreed : for as a theefe , or a murderer , or any other malefactor cannot be saued , as he is such a one ; no more can a Papist as hee holdeth his errours : for no vncleane thing shall enter into the kingdome of heauen : this is the former point of his sophistrie .

The other is in the word renouncing : For there are two kindes of renouncing : One actuall and expresse ; another virtuall , and infolded . The actuall is when a man doth both in word and practice separate himselfe from the religion of the Church of Rome . The virtuall is , when in preparation of minde , a man is ready to doc it , so soone as it shall appeare to him to be sinfull and damnable : when therefore he requireth that a Papist that must be saued should renounce his popery ; if he vnderstand the actuall renouncing thereof , we acknowledge that it is necessary so soone as hee shall know , and be conuicted of the euill of Popery : but if he neuer be conuicted thereof so long as he liueth ; then we say the virtuall is sufficient , which is included in generall repentance : otherwise , wee must confound sinnes knowne with vnknowne , and generall repentance with particular : This being considered , a man may easily perceiue how a simple ignorant Papist , whether learned or vnlearned , may bee said to renounce his poperie , and to be saued ; though he liue and die in the communion of that faith and religion . So much for Sophistry .

Now his folly appeareth in this , that he would haue us to hold , that a Papist ( which we say , may be iaued by a generall faith and repentance ) is saued as a Papist by vertue of his Popish ignorance , idolatry , and other trumpery , and not as a true beleeuer by faith in Christs merits : And that wee would haue some Godamercy to be giuen to Popery , or silly ignorance for his saluation ; which ought to be so farre from the conceit of any well disposed Christian , that all of vs must acknowledge , that no Protestant , as a Protestant ( communicating with the corruptions of seuerall Churches , Dutch , French , Germane , or the rest ; none of which are free from some enormities ) No Protestant ( I say ) as a Protestant , can bee saued , without this generall faith and repentance , so as there can be no God amercy giuen to our Protestancy , but onely to faith in Christs merits , by which we come to be saued , not as Protestants , but as true beleeuers , renouncing the corruptions of seuerall Churches : And so a Protestant liuing and dying a Protestant , may bee damned ; and a Papist liuing and dying a Papist may be saued .

BVRTON .

My conclusion is ( to be briefe , ) No Papist , as a Papist whether learned or ignorant can be saued ; My reason is , because Popery denyeth the sauing faith of Christ : and they want the meanes of faith ; therefore if they bee saued , it must be extraordinarily , &c.

Answere .

All this which followeth in this Section , is nothing but an idle repetition of those things which haue beene formerly vrged , and answered at large : and therefore with reference thereto , I pass it ouer : The same also I say to the next , wherein he takes it for granted , that he speakes the truth ; and that his aduersaries do diuorce themselues from sound iudgement , and right reason ; and haue no right charity but such as calleth euill good : Because they say , It is an hard sentence , yea malicious , and rash , to say , That in the Church of Rome there is no saluation : All which I leaue to the discretion of the Reader . So much for the two questions , and the two former Authors .

BVRTON .

But others would not have it denyed , that the Church of Rome is a true visible Church , though not a true beleeuing Church .

Answer .

Hauing rid his hands of his two former Authors with a kinde of neglect ( as I said afore ) hee comes now to his meeke , and sweet spirited Author , a Reuerend Antistes of the Church of England , our diuine Seneca , &c. against whom he bends all his forces ; and yet like Iudas ( as you see ) betrayeth him with kissing : May not I say to him , as Horace to Lydia in another case ?

— Lydia dic per omnes Te deos oro , Sybarim cur properas amande Perdere ? — So Burton , for Gods sake tell me , I thee pray , Why thou so louingly dost Exon flay ?

I acknowledge my poetry may bee blamed , but the conceit may bee prety and tolerable , ( though I say it my selfe ) for to say the truth , he laboureth to kill him with kindnesse ; in that ( as much as in him lyeth ) hee blemisheth his well deserued , Reuerend , and Honorable name in the Church with his flattering opposition : But he must be pardoned , for he hath done it to the glory of God and the confusion of Babylon : which if it might proue to be true , I dare bee bold to say , his Author would not only be ready to make an humble and ingenuous palinody , or retractation , ( as he sawcily requireth ) but euen to sacrifice his goods , good name , soule and body for euer : But I doubt hee hath done Gods glory more hurt , and Babylon more good , then any Babylonian Papist hath done these many yeares .

Author .

That which Laertius speakes of Menodemus , that in disputing his very eyes would sparkle , is true of many of ours ; whose zeale transports them to such a detestation of the Romane Church , as if it were all errour , no Church ; affecting nothing more then an vtter opposition to their doctrine , and ceremonies , because theirs .

BVRTON .

What if we should deny this , that the Church of Rome is a true visible Church ? Must we at the first dash be censured as men transported with zeale out of the detestation of the Church of Rome , as if it were all error , no Church , & c ?

Answer .

How are you not ashamed to abuse your Reuerend Author , doth hee censure all of them that deny the Church of Rome to be a true visible Church in this sort , and manner ? are not his expresse words , that it is true of many of them , not of all ? Master Burton , this dealing beseemes not one that contends for the glory of God , and confusion of Babylon : In my conscience , no truly religious wise man will deny , but many of them doe well deserue this censure ; and you for one .

BVRTON .

Because theirs ? that s not it , but because wholly Antichristian ; therefore we detest the whore .

Answer .

Is not that it ? M. Burton ? why then said you before in the depth of your policy , that though it were true that the Church of Rome were a true Church , yet the countenancing or pressing of it in these times might very well be spared ? haue you so soone forgotten your selfe ? and are the doctrine and ceremonies of that Church wholly Antichristian ? when you haue proued it , say so ; but till then lay your hand vpon your mouth , and suspend .

BVRTON .

And for my part , I had rather some fire-sparkling zeale , yet guided with right iudgment should euen transport mee with a detestation of the Church of Rome , as a false Church ; then that I wot not what charity without Zeale , without sound iudgement , should so farre possesse me , as to acknowledge the Church of Rome for a true Church , yea or yet for a true , or truly visible Church .

Answer .

Your zeale ( though transporting you ) is guided with right iudgement : your Author ( though Reuerend ) is possessed with a charity without zeale , without sound iudgement ; of the two you preferre your owne : it seemes you dwell by bad neighbours , Mr. Burton ; Else you fall within the compasse of Catoes Hoc faciunt stulti , &c.

BVRTON .

And yet , vnder correction , I see no such difference betweene these two , but that if we yeeld the church of Rome to be a true , o● truely visible Church ; we may as well call it a true Church .

Answere .

If this will giue you content we will not striue with you : though it may be , wee might puzzle you : And for the next Section it is already answered .

Author .

Neither for the chaffe doe we leaue the floore of God , neyther for the badd fishes doe wee breake his nets .

BVRTON .

Whether that floore , and those nets , be Antichrists onely , and not Gods , shall appeare more fully anone .

Answer .

Where ? can you tell ? you promise it , but you neuer performe it .

Author .

All truth is Gods , wheresoeuer it is found ; not ours : as the Kings coyne is currant , though it bee found in any vncleane channell .

BVRTON .

True : but when the truth of God is turned into a lye , and the Kings coyne beaten into a thinne leafe , &c. the case is altered : And so it is in the Church of Rome .

Answer .

It is vntrue , and contrary to the Apologies of all the Reformed Churches , who stand vpon it , that they haue not made an innouation , or renouation , but onely a reformation , which could not be , if all Gods truth in the Church of Rome were turned into a lye , and that Gods coyne ( the Scripture ) were vtterly defaced : your selfe haue acknowledged it was not so before the Councell of Trent , and I haue proued that it is no worse now ( if so ill ) as it was before . And if some of those Churches , which yet abide in the vnitie of the Church of Rome , would depart from her , and embrace the truth , they would doe no otherwise , then the Reformed Churches haue done already .

Author .

Fundamentall truth is like the Meronean wine , which if it be mixed with twenty times so much water holds its strength .

BVRTON .

The comparison is pretty if it did hold water : but what if into the Maronaean wine twenty times so much poyson be put ? Againe , take the Maronaean wine and extract the spirits out of it , what is it then but a dead vappa ? such is that truth , which is now in the Church of Romes keeping , &c.

Answer .

Here his zeale transports him almost to blasphemy , for it is impossible that the fundamentall truth of Gods church should eyther be so poysoned , or the spirits thereof so extracted , as hee affirmeth ; if it were otherwise , the gates of hell might preuaile against it : but Zanchius saith a great deale better in his Preface before his Booke De natura Dei , Non potuit Satan ( saith hee ) vel in ipsae Roman● ecclesia quacunque voluit efficere , sicut in Orientals fecer at : Invite enim S 〈…〉 ecclesia illa praecipua fidei fundamenta quanquam humanis doctrinis labefactata : and this he said since the Councell of Trent : Now let euery wise man iudge , whether Zanchius or Burton be rather to bee credited : Although I cannot dissemble my dissent also from Zanchy himselfe in this point : for hee yeeldeth too much in my conceit , That Sathan hath effected what hee would in the Orientall Church in abolishing fundamentall truth : which ( vnder correction ) I suppose to be vntrue ; for that Church euen to this day holdeth the fundamentall truths of Christianitie as well as the Church of Rome : But it may be he speaketh of defection to Mahometry ; which is not the Orientall Church .

Author .

The Sepulchre of Christ was ouerwhelmed by the Pagans with earth , and rubbish , &c. yet still there was the Sepulchre of Christ : And it is a ruled case of Papini●n , that a sacred place loseth not the holinesse with the demolished walls : No more doth the Romane Church lose the claime of a true visible Church through her manifold and deplorable corruptions .

BVRTON .

How the Church of Rome may bee proued to be a true visible Church , because once it was so , by this comparison I see not ; and how a sound Christian may edifie his faith vpon a comparison from Papinians ruled case I cannot sauour : All sound Diuines know , that places are not further , nor longer sacred , then the vse remaineth whereupon at first they began to be sacred .

Answer .

Here is much adoe to small purpose ; he had little to doe to spend his time in confuting similitudes ; which were vsed of the Reuerend Author for no other purpose then that for which they were originally ordained ; which is not to proue , but to illustrate : which if hee had shewed they doe not , hee had said somewhat to the purpose ; but that he could not , for they are as apt and fit for the purpose as can be : As for edification of any mans faith vpon these , or other comparisons , I am sure be neue● intended : The very point wee haue it hand is no matter of faith , but of fact : I● places remaine sacred so farre , and so long as the vse remaineth whereupon at first they beganne to be sacred , it 〈◊〉 all we desire ; for so answerably Rome must still be a true visible Church , because the couenant betweene God and her still holdeth , which was the thing which first made her to be a true visible Church : for it followeth .

Author .

If the Church of Rome were once the Spouse of Christ , and her adulteries are knowne ; yet the diuorce is not sued out .

BVRTON .

Is not the diuorce sued out ? Perhaps not in a legall formality ; but what if this once spouse of Christ , not only play the open whore , but professeth her selfe to be the maried wife of another man ? Is this woman still the spouse of her former husband ? though shee haue not sued out a legall diuorce ? Thus stands the case with the Church of Rome . But what if Christ the first husband come and chalenge his spouse againe ? seeing this second mariage was a nullity ? Indeed the Lord is very mercifull . Ier. 3. 1

Answer .

Now Mr. Burton ( as if hee had seene the head of Medusa ) seemes to be depriued of his senses ; Is it not ? ( saith he ) Perhaps not : But what if this ? Is that ? But what if that ? Indeed then , &c. What staggering is this ? It seemes this argument hath so choaked him , that he cannot speake without coughing : If he could , he should haue done well to haue left the allegory , and to haue proued in plaine termes , that the Couenant betweene Christ and the Church of Rome , is vtterly abrogated , and abolished , which I suppose he● will neuer be able to doe .

BVRTON .

But if the diuorce be sued out , then you will say she ceaseth to be a spouse to her former husband ; well ; and is nor that diuorce betweene the Church of Rome and Christ yet sued forth ? yet certainly , and that on both parties : First on the Church of Romes part . When ? ( say you ? ) In the Councell of Trent ( say we . ) It is the duty and pr●perty of Christs spouse , to hearken to her husbands voice onely , and to honour him . Psal. 45. 11. Luke 9. 35. But the Church of Rome in the Councell of Trent hath taken out a bill of diuorce , and hath emancipated her selfe wholly to the Pope , as her husband , to heare him in all things from that time forwards : And this diuorce is ratified by the Bull of Pope Pius 4. super forma iuramenti professionis fidei , in the end of the Councell .

Answer .

If I were disposed to picke quarrells , I might haue excepted against many of your absurd phrases since I beganne to deale with you , and against one here ; of a wiues emancipating her self to another husband : But I ayme at the maine point : I make no doubt then , but the church of Rome hath long agone ( euen many hundred years before the Councell of Trent ) broken the Couenant of her God ; and still abideth in that transgression ; and so deserueth well enough to be diuorced from Christ for euer : But that it was euer her desire to separate her selfe from Christ , it will neuer be proued : Nay rather it hath euer bin her cunning to make him a couer and cloake of all her whoredomes and abominations , ( as a subtile adultresse dealeth with her long suffering and patient husband ) that so she may seeme to be a Matrone , though she bee indeed a notable Strumpet : and this is the highest point of the mystery of iniquity .

Now how you proue the contrary by the forme of oath of Obedience to the Bishop of Rome , and of the Profession of the Romane faith , ( decreed Sess. 24. cap. 12. of the Councell , to be administred , and taken , ( and accordingly performed ) onely of such Clergy men as are to be preferred to Ecclesiasticall dignities or benefices with cure of soules ) doe you your selfe ( at your farther leisure ) consider : As if a Schismatick should argue by the oathes of Supremacy , Allegiance , and Canonicall Obedience , and by the subscription which are to be performed in the same case of all that are to be made Ministers , or admitted to any preferment in the Church of England ; that the Church of England also hath sued out a diuorce from Christ , and so is no true : visible Church : ( which God forbid ; ) As the fanaticall Brownists and Anabaptists say vpon the selfe same reason .

BVRTON .

Now if any will require a proofe on Christs part , that he hath also publickly giuen the Church of Rome a bill of diuorce ; let him but search in Gods records : Doth not Christ Reuel. 17. openly declare the Church of Rome to be the Whore of Babylon ? and is there not a plaine bill of Diuorce , Reuel. 18 ? and that by a voice from heauen , saying , Come out of her my people , & c ? doth not Christ here separate his owne people , his owne spouse out of Babylon ? And this diuorce on Christs part , came to bee of force vpon the Councell of Trent ; when the Church of Romes second mariage was solemnly concluded , and Christ excluded : what need be said more ; to proue this Diuorce , and that on both sides ?

Answer .

What need bee said more ? ( quoth you ? ) marry much more then either you haue said yet , or euer will bee able to say , I trow : what is it ( I pray ) you haue said now , that you need to say no more ? Is it this ? That Rome , and the Romane Church is the whore of Babylon ? Wee allow it : Or that Christ would haue his people to separate from her ? we grant it : But that the Church of Rome was maried to a second husband in the Councel of Trent , & Christ excluded ; or that those words , Come out of her my people , are a bill of diuorce ; or that Christ by them separateth his Spouse from her , we vtterly deny . To the first enough hath beene said in the last answer . To the second wee say , first that ( if Brightman your best master say true , ) this place must not be vnderstood spiritually , but literally , of the locall departure of Gods people out of Rome , and Gods calling them thereto at the last ouerthrow and destruction thereof , as he called Lot out of Sodom , and the Iewes out of the Easterne Babylon in the same words , & the Church out of Ierusalem when it was to be vtterly destroyed ; so that as Mice ( I vse his owne similitude ) perceiuing the house will fall , doe leaue it , and runne away ; so the people of God warned by the Angell will leaue Rome , and shift for themselues : which being so , this Prophesie is not yet fulfilled . Secondly , if it be taken spiritually , it is so far from prouing a diuorce , that it proueth the quite contrary : for first , so long as Babylon hath a being , this euocation will bee of vse and force , because so long God shall haue a people in Babylon ; and so long there can bee no diuorce , because God begets not children of any , but of his Spouse the Church : Secondly , these words declare not what Christ himselfe either doth or will doe , but what hee would haue his people to doe : Now a Diuorce is not a separation of the Familie from the Mother , or Mistris , but of the husband from the wife ; Ergo , here is no Diuorce intended . To the third , we say , that seeing the wife is the whore , and the whore is Babylon ; Christ intendeth not here to separate his Wife or Spouse from Babylon ; because in so doing he should separate his wife from his wife , and Babylon from Babylon , which implies a contradiction .

Author .

As it is a visible Church we haue not detracted to hold communion with it ; as Babylon , we can haue nothing to doe with it .

BVRTON .

This distinction comes too late , after the sentence of the diuorce is giuen on both sides : Christ hath disclaimed her for his Spouse : bidding his Spouse to come from her : therefore whom God separateth , let no man ioyne together : yea in this case no distinction ▪ will serue to ioyne vs together againe in one communion : Herein we must not hearken to the voice of any man bee he neuer so Reuerend , before , or against the voice of Christ : By what distinction ( I pray ) can an honest and chaste Matrone salue her credit by keeping company , or hauing communion with a notorious Strumpet ? Would it not seem a strange distinction to say , The Deuill in his essence being good , wee detract not to hold communion with him ; but as a Deuill , wee can haue nothing to doe with him ?

Answer .

You abuse your selfe and the Reader too bad , and that in two things : First , in blaming the distinction : Secondly , in scandalizing your Author . The distinction ( you say ) comes too late , and is not vseful to ioyne vs together again in one communion . The former whereof is false , as hath beene shewed in the former answers . The latter dependeth vpon the scandals of the Author ; for the better vnderstanding whereof wee are to know , That the reformed Churches neuer made a full , and totall separation from the Church of Rome ; but onely partiall , from her corruptions ; Non tam ab ea , quam ab eius erroribus discessimus , saith Iewel in his Apologie , which is the common voice of all , euen of Perkins himselfe in his Reformed Catholike , who sh●wes in euery head of doctrine how farre wee may and must hold communion with that Church : and to this and no more hath the Reuerend Author respect in this assertion : Now this Calumniator would make the world beleeue , that his intent is to vse a meanes by help of this distinction to ioyne vs together againe in one communion in those things wherein we are already separated : which as it was far from his heart and meaning ( for his whole Treatise tends to the contrary ) so indeed it were a vaine thing for him to endeuour it by this distinction . For it would be all one as if hee should say , As she is a visible Church , wee may communicate with her in her corruptions ; But as she is Babylon we may not . Which is indeede the folly which hee illustrateth by his two similitudes of societie with a strumpet and the deuill . Thus you see the honesty , and wisedome of the man ; and by this you may iudge of his zeale for the glory of God .

Author .

They haue not well heeded the charitable profession of zealous Luther , Nos fatemur , &c. We professe ( saith hee ) that vnder the Papacie , there is much Christian good , yea all , &c. I say moreouer that vnder the Papacie is true Christianitie , ●●a , the very kernell of Christianity , &c.

BVRTON .

Luthers speech then was true : But euer distingue tempora ; Luther wrote that before the Councell of Trent , till which the Church of Rome had not altered the rule of Faith : But now wee that liue after that Councell cannot say so : for in that Councell the nut was crackt , the kernell reiected , yea anathematized , and now they haue retained no more , but the broken shell of a Church .

Answer .

It is a strange thing to see how men are enamoured of their owne conceits , Qui amant , ipsi sibi somnia singunt ( saith the Poet ) I warrant you if M. Burton were braied in a morter , yet would not these toyes depart from him . Huartus in his Tryall of wits , reporteth of a Noble-mans Page in Spaine , that ( being distracted of his wits ) imagined himselfe to be a King , in which conceit he so pleased himselfe , that when hee was cured , hee was displeased with the Physitian that restored him to his right minde : and so I doubt M. Burton will be with those that shew him the vanities of these his imaginations . Well , howsoeuer it be , wee must be content , and suffer him to abound in his owne sense , till Time the Mother of Truth reueale his grosse mistakings : and in the meane while l●t it bee sufficient answer to this long discourse , that here is nothing but idle repetition of those things which haue beene already answered . And h●●herto we haue answered what hee hath obiected to what was said in the Booke of The old Religion concerning this argument .

Author .

Nothing can be so well said , or done , but may be ill taken .

BVRTON .

Now God forbid : But is it well said , or done , to affirme that the Church of Rome is yet a true , or a true visible Church ? Now let the Reuerend Author iudge indifferently ( hauing well weighed the former reasons ) whether we doe ill or no in taking his saying ill , or whether wee had not reason to haue expected an ingenuous Palinodie or Augustine-like Retractation , rather then such an Apologie : which whether it be rather to be pitied , then any vncharitablenesse in the Reader in taking such a saying ill , let indicious charitie it selfe iudge : Nor need we stretch the saying to imply , that the Church of Rome is a true beleeuing Church : Suffice it we except against any being , yea or visibility of a true Church in the Synagogue of Rome .

Answer .

Some men are like Nettles , which if a man handle softly , they sting him ; but if hardly and roughly , they are not felt . Our Reuerend Antistes hauing but glanced at the zeale of some , transported to such a detestation of the Romane church , as if it were all error , no church ; is deeply censured , as if preferment had changed his note , and taught him to speake more plausible language of the Church of Rome , then eyther hee did , or ought . Hereupon he frames an Apologeticall , milde , and Christian Aduertisement , to rectifie their iudgement , lest their preiudice may turne more to their sinne , then to his wrong : What s the issue ? Nothing but scorne : for sooth they expected that the Reuerend Author , ( well weighing the former reasons , ) would haue made a pittifull Retractation , and not such an Augustine-like Apologie . Nay , they will not acknowledge any the least mistaking in the matter ; yea , those words ( Nothing can be so well said or done , but may be ill taken , which are the ordinary preamble to reconciliation ) are taken amisse : and so proue themselues to be true through their frowardnesse . What then is to be done ? Haec non succedit , alia ineunda est via : The Reuerend Author must vse them like hounds ; which the more a man beateth , the better they loue him : or like the wilde Irish ; which are most seruiceable when they are most slauishly vsed . And so they shall haue their desire ; a Palinodie , or Retractation ; which is , That is repenteth him , that hee hath dealt so fauourably with them . For as for their reasons , ( if they were not as bold and blinde as Bayard himselfe ) they would be ashamed to commend them to the iudgement of iudicious Charity .

Author .

Who sees not that [ visible ] referres to outward profession , [ true ] to some essential principles of Christianitie ? neyther of them to soundnesse of beleefe ?

BVRTON .

Is outward profession a sufficient marke of visibilitie for a Church ? This is none of those markes which the Church of England takes notice of a Church by .

Answer .

No ? Are not they the preaching of the word , administration of sacraments and Ecclesiasticall discipline ? And what outward profession of Christianitie , can any visible church make without these ? Outward profession therefore , comprehendeth them all ; and so is a sufficient marke of visibilitie for a Church .

BVRTON .

Againe , the Scripture calls them the Synagogue of Satan , which call themselues Iewes and are not .

Answer .

True ; yet were they true Iewes in the flesh , and outwardly , Rom. 2. ●8 . 29. and so may a true visible Church of Christians be also .

BVRTON .

The Samaritanes sometimes professed themselues to bee of the Iewes religion , and professed the worship of the Lord , were they therefore a visible Church ?

Answer .

The reason is not like ; because they neuer were in the Couenant of Gods grace ; but were aliens from the Common wealth of Israel .

BVRTON .

And for the essentiall principles of Christianity , the Iewes at this day hold the Old Testament ; and if it bee said , They deny Christ expressely , the Papists doe so too implicitely ; and by their owne expresse doctrines of Trent , haue no more communion with Christ then the Iewes haue : Nay Papists doe expresly abiure the doctrine of Christ , as wee shewed before in the Popes owne Bull.

Answer .

The tongue that lyeth , slayeth the soule : Such comparisons are not onely odious , but damnable . If this zeale do not transport you to sinne , I doubt not but euill-speakers , raylers , and slanderers may finde an easie passage into the kingdome of heauen .

Author .

Grant the Romanists to be but Christians , how corrupt soeuer ; and wee cannot deny them the name of a Church .

BVRTON .

But why should we grant them that which neuer a Papist is able to demonstrate to vs , or yet vndoubtedly to perswade himselfe of ?

Answer .

This fond conceit is sufficiently answered already .

BVRTON .

Although for the bare name of Christians and of a Church , wee will not much stand with them ; so they do not hereupon , or any for them , incroach and challenge the beeing and realitie , yea or the very visibility of a true Church .

Answer .

You are very liberall of that which is none of your owne : Can you bee content to afford the precious name of a Christian and of a Church of Christ to them which in mans iudgement not partially affected , are not so ? The Iews would neuer doe it ; neither will the Papists doe it ; neither will the Reformed Churches doe it ; neither will any well informed Christian doe it : But you will not much stand vpon it .

Author .

We are all the same Church , by vertue of our outward vocation , whosoeuer all the world ouer worship Iesus Christ the onely Sonne of God , the Sauiour of the world ; and professe the same common Creed .

BVRTON .

Doth the Church of Rome worship Iesus Christ , who for Christ worship the Beast and his Image , bearing his mark ?

Answer .

Doe all in the Church of Rome doe so ? what they whose names are written in the Lambs booke of life ? Reu. 13. 8. or are you sure that none of the Church of Rome liuing and dying professed members thereof are written therein ?

BVRTON .

Doc they hold the same Creed , that deny the faith , without which they cannot say the first words of the Creed , I beleeue in God ?

Answer .

And dare you say that all and euery one in the Church of Rome doth so ?

Author .

Rome doth both hold the foundation , and destroy it ; she holds it directly , destroyes it by consequent .

BVRTON .

What foundation doe they hold directly with vs ? wee shewed before , that they haue nothing of Christ , but the shell , the shadow , the Pope is the kernell , if any .

Answer .

You said so indeed , but you shewed it not : yet if they haue the shell , that is the outward profession of the foundation directly , it is enough to make them be said to hold the foundation directly .

BVRTON .

Nay doe they h●ld more of Christ directly , then the very society of Deuils doe ? yea or so much as they ?

Answer .

They doe , if your selfe say true : for you say , that To hold the foundation directly , is to hold Iesus Christ so to be come in the slesh , as therein to suffer and satisfie for our saluation ; becomming our Christ , our Iesus , redeeming vs from our sinnes by imputing his merits to vs , that our sins might not be imputed to vs which were imputed to him : by whose stripes wee are healed , by whose righteousnesse imputed wee are perfectly iustified in the sight of God : And all , and euery point of this , the Church of Rome directly holdeth .

BVRTON .

Nothing lesse : yea she directly , not by consequence onely ; directly ( I say ) shee denieth and destroyeth this foundation : How ? and where ? in the Councell of Trent , Sess. 6. Can. 10. Siquis dixerit homines per ipsam Christi iustitiam formaliter iustos esse , Anathema sit : Is not this a direct , and flat expresse denyall of the foundation ?

Answer .

Is this an expresse , flat , and direct denial of the foundation ? then Melancthon , Caluin , Illyricus , and all sound and good Protestants doe expresly , flatly , and directly deny the Foundation : for all of them doe , and must hold this doctrine for accursed : and all the Ministers of the Church of England haue cause to be ashamed of your ignorance & boldnesse ( Mr. Burton ) who dare challenge the Church of Rome to denie the foundation directly in that wherein she holdeth and confirmeth the truth of the Gospel : you must know therefore that in these words is condemned the damnable doctrine of Andrew Osiander , and his followers ; who taught and held , that a man is formally iustified by the very Righteousnesse by which Christ himselfe is essentially iust and righteous , being partakers thereof by inhabitation : This allegation therefore is a notable abuse not only of the Councel , but of your selfe and the Reader . See Bellarmine de Iustif. lib. 2. cap. 2. Sect. 2. His verbis : though himselfe offend therein also afterwards .

BVRTON

And in the 11th Canon ; If any shall say , that men are iustified by the sole imputation of Christs righteousness , or by sole remission of sins , ( otherwise then by , * * See the 7. Chap. of the same Sess. inherent righteousnesse by vs obtained thereby ) or also that the grace of God whereby wee are iustified , is onely the fauour of God , let him bee accursed : What more direct deniall of the foundation ?

Answer .

I might here challenge you for altering , and changing the words of the Councell ; but I will not take all aduantages : I answer therefore , that it seems you know not the true meaning of the Councell ; for taking the word Iustification in the Councels owne sense , this Canon containes very sound and Christian doctrine . What then doth it mean by Iustification ? A compound of Protestant Iustification , and Sanctification : for so it defines Iustification , cap. 7. of this Session in the first words : Iustificatia est , non sola peccatorum remissio , sed & sanctificatio , & renouatio interioris hominis per voluntariam susceptionem gratiae & donorum : and so the true sense and meaning of the Canon is this : If any man shall say , that men are so iustified by the sole imputation of Christs righteousnesse , or by sole remission of sinnes , that they are also sanctified thereby without inherent grace and charity ; or also that the grace whereby wee are so iustified is onely the fauour of God , Let him bee accursed : and let him be so indeed for me . You will say this is nothing but meere iugling : I grant it ; but it is not direct denyall of the foundation : for here ( as Chemnitius acknowledgeth ) is both remission of sinnes , and imputation of Christs righteousnesse included ; which though it be sufficient to iustification in the Protestant sense , yet in the popish sense ( wherein sanctification is also required ) it is not sufficient .

BVRTON .

Is not this the foundation , That Iesus Christ came into the world to saue sinners ? and how ? who his owne selfe bare our sinnes in his owne bodie on the tree ; that we being dead to sins , should liue vnto righteousnesse ; by whose stripes we are healed : Nay ( saith the Councell of Trent directly ) wee are iustified by our inherent righteousness , and so our stripes are healed , and not by the righteousnesse of Christ simply imputed : Thefore come out of her my people .

Answer .

How the Councell is to bee vnderstood , I haue shewed already : and being so vnderstood , there is no direct denyall of the foundation : Therefore although Gods people must come out of Babylon ; yet not vpon this ground : And so I conclude as I beganne , Apply Iohn Barber , and thou shalt haue a new payre of sizors . For marke the argument : The foundation is , Iesus Christ came to saue sinners , &c. But the Councel of Trent saith , We are so iustified that wee are also sanctified by inherent righteousnesse : Ergo , Come out of her my people .

Author .

Thus I wrote well neare twenty yeares agone without clamour , without censure : If any of you be otherwise minded ; I dare boldly say , hee shall doe more wrong to his cause , then to his aduersary . I differ not from the iudgement of our best , Orthodoxe , and approuedly Classicall Diuines .

BVRTON .

Let not antiquity in the holding of an opinion , prescribe against truth Opinions Ancient . O that S. Ambrose his words alledged by our Reuerend Author might here take place ; Nullus pud or est ad meliora transire : then I hope he will be otherwise minded then to say , He that denyeth the Church of Rome to be a true Church , or a true visible Church , shall doe more wrong to his cause then to his aduersarie ; Then he will no longer stand vpon the iudgement of particular persons in a point wherein our Reuerend Mother Church of England hath in her publique doctrine resolued the contrary : So shall our diuine Seneca partake also of great Saint Augustines praise , while by an humble and ingenuous Retractation , he shall both purge away the staine , and put a more glorious lustre to his most sweet , pious , and for their kinde vnparalleld workes ; And for me a poore vnworthy Minister , I hope his meeke and sweet spirit ( hauing well weighed my reasons , and pitied my weaknesses ) will be pleased to excuse me of any transportation of zeale , vnlesse herein I haue exceeded the bounds , in presuming so farre vpon the patience of such a Reuerend Antistes of our Church : But I trust he will not impute this to any arrogancy of spirit , when it shall appeare , it is to vindicate Christs truth and glorie , against the Synagogue of the proud Antichrist .

Answer .

It is well obserued , that this fellow hath a notable dexterity in dedicating Epistles before his Bookes , and in Prefaces , Digressions , Epilogues , and the like ; but that in his Tracts , Discourses , and Disputations , he is as hungry and dry as Famine it selfe : This as it is true in all his writings , so especially in this ; as I hope I haue in good measure made it appeare by the premisses . And for this his conclusion ; All the glozing thereof ●ends to obtaine two requests : One that the Reuerend Author would be brought to humble himselfe to him in an ingenuous Retractation ; And the other , that he would hold him excused for his presumption : Both are vnreasonable : vnlesse hee will take that for a Retractation which before hath beene tendred ; and for an excuse , that he supposeth it ignorant arrogance , rather then zeale that hath transported him : He would strike an impression into the innocent soule of the Reuerend Author , that he hath contracted some stain by this assertion , That the Church of Rome is a true , or truly visible Church : And indeed it is too well knowne that such companions as he is haue for a long time taken vpon them to bee the Censors of all mens doings , and to cry vp and downe euery mans credit and reputation at their pleasure : But ( God bee praised ) he is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , out of their gunshot : for it is well knowne to God and man , that all his courses from the cradle haue beene such , that Fame her selfe may lay her hand vpon her mouth , so as he need not endeauor to purge away any staine , which they shall impute vnto him . The close of his Aduertisement , will so possesse the soules of all good and honest men , that the strife of tongues shall neuer bee able to molest him .

Thus ( saith he ) in a desire to stand but so right as I am , in all honest iudgments , I haue made this speedy and true Apology ; beseeching all Readers in the feare of God ( before whose barre we shall once giue an account of all our ouerlashings ) to iudge wisely , and vprightly of what I haue written : In a word , to do me but iustice in their opinions ; and when I beg it , fauour .

FINIS .