The conuerted Iew or Certaine dialogues betweene Micheas a learned Iew and others, touching diuers points of religion, controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants. Written by M. Iohn Clare a Catholicke priest, of the Society of Iesus. Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of Oxford and Cambridge ...

THE CONVERTED IEW OR CERTAINE DIALOGVES BETWEE● MICHEAS A LEARNED IEW.

And others , touching diuers points of Religion , controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants .

Written by M. IOHN CLARE a Catholicke Priest , of the Society of IESVS .

Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of OX●●RD and CAMBRIDGE

The leafe following sheweth the Interlocutours 〈…〉

Iudaeis nou a lux ●riri visa est .

Hesther . 8.

PERMISSV SVPERIORVM . Anno. M. DC . XXX .

The Interlocutours of euery Dialogue .

1. In the first Dialogue is disputed ; whether the Church of Rome hath made any change in fayth and Religion , since the first plantation of it by the Apostles ? It is proued , that it hath not .

The Interlocutours are . Cardinall Bellarmyne of worthy memory Michaeas a learned Iewish Rabine . Doctour Whitakers of Cambridge .

Ad Romanos perfidia non potest habere accessum .

Cyprian . lib. 1. epist. 3.

2. In the second Dialogue , entituled : The second part of the Conuerted Iew , is discussed ; whether in euery age since the Apostles ; or rather whether but in any one Age sin●e that tyme , till Luthers dayes , there can be giuen any Instances of Professours of Protestancy ? It is proued , that no such Instances can be giuen .

The Interlocutours . Michaeas , the foresaid Iew. Ochinus , who first planted Protestancy in England , in King Edward the sixt his raigne . Doctour Reynolds of Oxford . Neuserus , Chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg , in the Palatinat .

Si dixerint vobis : Ecce in deserto est ; nolite exire . Ecce in penetratibus ; nolite credere .

Math. 24.

3. In the third and last Dialogue , styled : The arraingnment of the Conuerted Iew. It is discoursed ; Whether the Protestants of the Catholiks , do stand more chargeable , with disloyalty to their lawfull Princes ? It is proued , that the Protestants stand more chargeable . In this last dialogue , are diuers other points of Catholike Religion breifly handled .

The Interlocutours . The right Honourable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England . Michaeas the former Iew. M. Vicechancelour of Oxford .

Vidi mulierem , ebriam de sanguine Sanctorum .

Apocalyp. 17.

THE ARGVMENT OF THE FIRST DIALOGVE .

MICHAEAS ( a learned Iewish Rabine ) by his diligent comparing of the Prophecies of the Old Testament , touching IESVS CHRIST , with the exact accomplishment of them , recorded in the New Testament ; forsaketh his former Iudaisme , and imbraceth the Christian Religion . But in obseruing diuers differences touching faith among Christians ( and particularly among the Catholiks and Protestants ) knoweth not to whether side to range himselfe . At this tyme it so faleth out , that there is a generall meeting of many famous learned Men of all Religions , in the greate Citty of Cosmopolis in Vtopia : among whom Cardinall Bellarmyne , and Doctour Whitakers are thither comne . Michaeas hastneth thither , and imparteth to the said Cardinall and Doctour his present state , & openeth to them his vncertainty , whether to embrace the Catholike fayth , or Protestancy . The Cardinall and the Doctour according to the different Principles of each others religion , propound to him different meanes of setling his iudgement in poynts of fayth . Michaeas ( for some peculiar reasons ) forbeareth both their directions ; He reduceth the tryall of all to this one head : to wit , that whereas he fyndeth in the New * * Rom. 1. & 15. & 16. Act. 28. Testament , that the true fayth was once planted by the Apostles in Rome ; He saith , that if it can be proued , that this fayth euer altered since the Apostles tymes , he will become a Protestant ; if not , he meaneth to be a Roman Catholike . Hereupon he earnestly entreateth the Cardinall and the Doctour , that they would enter into dispute , touching the change of fayth in the Church of Rome . They both accord to his request , and instantly begin a serious & graue discourse touching this subiect . Cardinall Bellarmyne so presseth Doctour Whitakers with weight of arguments , & by discouering the weaknes of the Doctours answeres and Obiections , as that in the end the Doctour ( entring into greate intemperance of words , against the Church of Rome ) abruptly breaketh off his discourse , and suddenly departeth . Michaeas , as conuinced with the force of the Cardinals disputation , is resolued to become a Roman Catholike ; and so accordingly receaueth in the end in the Cathedrall Church of Cosmopolis , his Baptisme , by the hands of the Cardinall , by whom also in some short tyme after , he is made Priest . Thus far concerning the fiction of this first Dialogue .

TO THE TWO MOST FAYRE SISTERS THE TWO MOST ILLVSTRIOVS VNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDG .

MOST remarkable and learned Academians , in whose due prayses I could willingly here insist , were it not , that I loath all show of oylye assentation . You may be here aduertized , touching the ensuing Treatises , that I haue made choice to set them downe rather in method of Dialogues , then in any other forme of style : Because in this ony delicate & fastidious age ( which is quickly cloyed with any thing , not accompanyed with Variety ) it is obserued , that interlocutory Periods , and vicissitude or alternation of turnes in speech , are more gratefull and pleasing , then any long , wearisome , continued , and vninterrupted discourse .

Though the subiect of these Treatises be seuerall mayne points and Controuersies in fayth ( and consequently , Points of Religion and Diuinity ) yet I presume , none of you is eyther so froward , or so ignorant , as to depraue and calumniate the Methode here vsed ; by saying , that we are not to inuulgar the Mysteryes of sacred Diniuity by way of Poeticall fiction of Dialogues , in forging that to be , which indeed is not . Which aspersion of any such Critick is easily wyped away , by the warrantable examples in this kind of S. Ierome , Theodoret , S. Gregory the Great , and others : who were not afrayd to treate of the highest matters of fayth , in forme of Dialogues . Againe , such an inconsiderate assertion must needs condemne Poetry in generall ( seeing Dialogues are a kind of Poetry ) which how great an errour it were , might easily appeare , in that Poëtry is masked Philosophy ; Philosophy Natures true History ; Nature Gods seruiceable Agent or Handmayd . Besids , I am of iudgment that the Body of any long Discourse ( like an vnformed Chäos ) is best brought into an Orbe of forme and Order , by help of interlocutions . And lastly , admit this kind of Wryting were strange and vnusuall , and chiefly sorting to subiects of lesser importance ; ( as indeed , it is not ) yet here we must remember , that a Phantastike often begins a fashion , which graue Men ( not to be thought Phantasticks ) are in the end content to follow .

Now to approach neerer the seuerall subiects , handled in all these Dialogues . In the first is disputed a Controuersy , much agitated and tossed betweene the Catholiks and the Protestants ; to wit , touching the change of fayth in the Church of Rome .

The Interlocutours are Cardinall Bellarmyne ( that Heresimastix ) Michaeas , a learned Iewish Rabin , and Doctour Whitakers of Cambridg . The place of this conference I haue made to be the great citty Cosmopolis in Vtopia ; since an imaginary place best sorteth to an imaginary disputation , in respect of the persons feigned . The Cardinall iustifyeth the Catholiks position ; videlicet , that no change in fayth and Religion hath bene made in the Church of Rome since the Apostles dayes : Which Position is indeed the iuncture , without which the whole frame almost of all other Controuersies hang loose . Doctour Whitakers vndertaks to proue the Contrary ; In whom rather , then in any other Protestant , I haue peculiarly ( and ex professo ) made choyce to personate all the speeches and arguments , vsed to proue this supposed change in the Church of Rome ; principally , because there is no Protestant wryter ( that I know ) who hath so much prosecuted this presumed change , as Doctour Whitakers hath done ; as appeareth in his Bookes agaynst the Cardinall himselfe , agaynst Father Campion ( that blessed Saint ) and cheifly against Duraeus , where the Doctour vndertaketh to instance diuers examples of this imaginary Reuolt . Yet here you are to conceaue , that I haue not so dwelled in the only wrytings of Doctour Whitakers , as that I neglect what other Protestants haue also written in maintenance of this change : for I assure you , I haue omitted nothing of Moment , which I could fynd in their Bookes , to be obiected in proofe thereof ; though Doctour Whitakers is introduced to deliuer or speake it . And withall I haue made speciall references to their Books , where such their sentences or authorities are to be found ; And yet ( learned Men ) notwithstanding all that , which can be vrged by any of them in this behalfe ; sooner shall they prooue , that the fixed starrs haue changed their postures & situations in their Orbe , then that Rome hath changed it fayth : So true are those words of an auncient Father : * * Nazianz . in carmine de vita sua . Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habere rectam fidem : & semper eam retinet . What sentences , authorities , or instances of change Doctour Whitakers hath vsed in any of his Bookes by me alledged ; the same I haue set downe with citation of the Books , and in a seuerall Character from that , which he speaketh at large , in the person of a Protestant ; and this to the end that the Reader may seuer the Doctours owne words , from the words of a Protestant in generall : In like sort , what intemperate speeches ( euen loaded with malice and rancour ) the Doctour●seth ●seth against the Church of Rome , are not by me forged and fathered vpon him ; But are ( especially , those which are most virulent ) his owne words , yet extant in his Bookes : and accordingly they are printed in a different letter , with the Latin words set in the margent : So carefull I am not to wrong the Doctour , by vniustly obtruding vpon him , any scurrilous and vndecent Inuectiues , or Pasquills .

The Conclusion consisteth in retorting that vpon our Aduersartes , where with they here charge the Church of Rome ; I meane , in demonstrating , that it is the Protestant , who hath made in fayth this change and innouation , from the auncient fayth of the Apostles ; And thus by comparing these two contrary fayths & doctrines together , and the antiquity of the one , and innouation of the other , you shall find , that errour is best knowne by truth , as death is knowne bylife .

Now here your ingenuities are to suppose for the tyme , that Cardinall Bellarmine and Doctour Whitakers are at this present liuing ; In like sort , that the Cardinall hath read all bookes written either in Latin or English , which are in this Dialogue alleadged : Which like supposalls you are also to make in the other subsequent Dialogues , touching the Persons in them produced ; as that they are now liuing , and that they all liued at one tyme &c. All which imaginations are fully iustifiable in the true methode of Dialogues ; since in this kind of writing , the Persons ( you know ) are forged for the matter , and not the matter for the Persons : And thus much touching the first Dialogue .

Now to descend to the second Dialogue ; The subiect wherof is to demonstrate , that the visibility of the Protestant Church cannot be iustifyed from the Primitiue Church , ( much lesse from the Apostles dayes ) till Luthers reuolt : And which is more , that not any one Man , during all that long Period of tyme ( nor Luther himselfe ) can be truly insisted vpon , for a perfect & absolute Protestant ; and such as the present Church of England can , or will acknowledge to be a member of it . Which point being once euicted , How deadly it woundeth the Protestants , may easily appeare ; in regard of the euer necessary and vndeniable visibility of Christs true Church ; whose expansion , enlargment , and vneclypsed radiancy at all tymes , is much celebrated in Holy writ : a a Esay . 60. ( Her sunne shall not be set , nor her Moone hid ) as will more fully appeare bereafter in it due place .

The interlocutours are the foresayd Michaeas , the Iew ; Ochinus , who first ( in King Edward the sixt his dayes ) did diseminate Protestancy at least , seuer all points of Protestancy , here l● England ; Doctour Reynolds of Oxford , and Neuserus , chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinate . Why Ochinus & Neuserus are brought in , as speakers in this Dialogue , the Argument prefixed therto will show .

I haue presumed to incorporate most of what can be vrged for the visibility of the Protestant Church , in Doctour Reynolds ; as a Man , who was best able in his dayes to support his owne Church from ruyne ; And sutably herto the supposed place of this disputation is Oxford . I haue in no sort wronged the Doctour , whom I well know to haue bene a blazing Comet in your Euang elicall spheare ; & to whom ( as being of good temperance in his writings , in respect of his brother Doctour Whitakers ) I am vnwtlling to ascrybe too litle ; only I wish , his fauorits had not ascrybed to him too much .

If any of you shall muse , why in these Dialogues all the Protestants ( being otherwise presumed to be most learned ) do reply so sparingly eyther to Cardinall Bellarmyne or to Michaeas their answeres and arguments , as here you shall find them to do : you are to conceaue , that it is agreed in the begining of the two first Dialogues among all the Interlocutours , to stand indisputably to the freqrent Confessions of the learned Protestants , vrged in behalfe of any poynt controuerted . Now both the Cardinall and Michae●s ( for the most part ) do auoyd the other Interlocutours reasons and instances , by the contrary acknowledgments of diuers eminent Protestants ; as also do produce their owne arguments in defence of their Catholicke articles , from the like acknowledgments of the learned Protestants , speaking in those points agaynst themselues , and in behalfe of the Catholickes . Which method being chiefly houlden throughout these Dialogues , how then can the Protestant Interlocutours continue any new reply , agaynst the Caidinall , or agaynst Michaeas ?

But to reflect vpon the subiect of this second Dialogue : And here I do auouch , that to maintayne , that Protestancy was euer before the breaking out of Luther ( though euen then it was not in it perfection ) is no lesse absurd in reason ; then to maintayne , that , the byrth of any thing can precede it conception ; and the effect the cause .

True it is , that in diuers former ages there haue bene some secret ( and indeed blind ) Moules , who working vnder the foundation of the Roman Church , haue labored to cast vp some earth of innouations and noueltyes , comparting perhapps in some one or two points with the sectar●es of these dayes : But to iustify in those men the visibility of the Protestant Church , or that they were Protestants ) which is at this present the poynt only issuable ) I hould it impossible ; Except we will dreame , that those persons did pertake of the nature of the planet Mercury ; which euer participateth ( as the Astrologers teach ) of all the influences of that other starre or planet , with which it is in any sort in coniunction .

Be it then , that some Innouatours in seuerall Centuryes haue contumactously defended some one or other Theoreme or principle , without which the entyre frame of Protestancy cannot subsist ; Will any of you from hence conclude ( and yet many Protestants do so conclude ) that such Mens Religion was perfect Protestancy ? By the like reason you may inferre ( to insist in similitudes within your owne spheare ) that Vnity is a Number ; a Poynt , Quantity ; & an Instant , Tyme : Wheras you know well , that these are only beginnings or Elements of Number , Quantity , and Tyme ; and without which these later can haue no being . In regard then of such want of visible Protestants , informer tymes , It is lesse wounder , that some Protestant wryters haue thought good to Idëate & frame in their mynd● a certayne mathematicall and airy Church , within which a number only of supposed inuisibilities are comprehended . Thus much touching this second Dialogue ; to the which I haue thought good to subnect ( as an Appendix ) a short view , taken of an Anonymous and froathy Pamphlet entituled : A Treatise of the perpetuall visibility and succession of the true Church , in al Ages ; written some few yeares since and set forth ( as is supposed ) by Doctour Featly .

Now in this last place , to come to the third and last Dialogue ; The subiect whereof is to manifest , that the Protestants ( by many degrees ) stand more iustly chargeable , both with the doctrine and practise of disloyalty , agaynst their lawfull Princes , then the Catholiks do : And that the Protestants haue therefore small reason ( and lesse policy ) to vpbrayde in their pulpits , and writings ( as it is their accustomed Scene to doe ) the Catholicks with any such hatefull cryme . In this last Dialogue are also seuerall insertions of some small Treatises , in defence of diuers Catholike doctrines . )

The Interlocutours in this Dialogue are the right Honorable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England ( to whom all dutifull comportment is borne throughout this Discourse ) Michaeas , the former Iew , and M. Vice-Chancelour of Oxford . That the Vice-Chacelour is therein introduced to be partly malignant agaynst Michaeas ( as charged by him besides with other offences for being a Catholike Priest ) is not strange ; considering how splenfull some Vice-Chancelours of that Vniuersity haue borne themselues , towards certayne Priests , there heretofore apprehended .

Thus farre particularly of the different subiects of these ensuing Dialogues ; Which point is more largly set downe in the Arguments of euery one of them .

Now ( most illustrious Men ) I haue presumed ( and I hope this my presumption will in your fauourable construction be warrantable ) to dedicate this whole worke to your selues ; not for your patronage thereof , for that only it owne worth ( If any be in it ) must effect ; but partly because you are best able to iudge of the arguments produced on eyther side ; and partly , in regard I haue selected out of eyther of your Vniuersities , one of the most pryme and choysest men in their dayes to be speakers in these Dialogues ; I meane ( as aboue is sayd ) Doctour Whitakers and Doctour Reynolds . I could wish , you would not sleight it , through a cold seuerity , proceeding from a forestauled iudgment against the Catholike fayth in generall ; but peruse it indifferently , and weigh the authorityes and reasons withall Candour and impartiality . Touching my owne sincerity , vsed throughout this labour ; know you , that if I haue purposely and deliberatly detorted from it true meaning , but any one authority here produced by me ; then let my forhead be publikly seared with an indeleble Stigma or print of shame and Confusion . No. He is not Religious , who handleth Religion with fraud and impostures . And I am so free and guiltles herein , as that I dare vaunt my selfe to be in this respect a b b a dye or any foursquared thing : Tetragonon ; cast me vp what way you will , my demeanour ( in this case ) will proue eauen & squared .

Do not expect any Oratory here , but what the force of vnauoydable Demonstrations can perswade ; And in this sence ( I trust , I may , without vanity say ) you shall find Oratory ; Since Truth is euer eloquent .

But now ( most celebrious Academians ) giue me leaue to turne my pen more particularly to your selues , and pardon this my boldnes ; it proceeding solely out of my charitable affection , and out of my desire of aduancing your spirituall Good : for you are c c 2. cor 3. Our Epistle , written in our harts . Well then , you are learned , and therefore ( if grace assist ) the more able to transpierce through any difficulties of Fayth , now questioned . Suffer not then your Iudgements to be enthralled to the iudgments of some few men among you , more eminent , then the rest ; they being Byrds , whose Aery is but in the high Cedars of the pretended reuealing Spirit ; since through their assumed priuiledge therof , they are not ashamed to reduce the construction of Scripture , and the weight of all authorityes whatsoeuer , to the Tribunall of their owne Censure ; scornfullly contemning whatsouer passeth not vnder the fyle of their owne approbation .

But to proceed forward . It is a thing wounderfull ( and indeed deplorable ) to obserue the the exorbitancy of most Schollers proceedings ( and perhapps of diuers of you ) in these poynts ; I meane , to see , what labour and toyle they bestowe in humane studyes , and how remisse they are in search of true fayth . I assure my selfe , that many of you haue indefatigably spent much tyme in seeking to know : Whether the Opinions of Copernicus touching the Motion of the Earth and standing still of the sunn and Primum Mobile , can be made probable ? Whether a Concentrike Orbe with an Epicycle , or an Excentrike Orbe alone , can better salue the Phaynomena and irregular Apparences of the Planetts ▪ Whether ech Orbe be moued a Propria Intelligentia , or ab interna forma ? Whether , supposing Infinitum to be in Rerum natura , One Infinitum can be greater , then an other ? Which poynt some Philosophers exemplify in the infinit reuolutions of the Sunne and the Moone ; the Moone performing her course twelue or 13. tymes in that space , in which the Sunne doth but once : And yet both their reuolutions must be infinit in Number ; if one will grant with Aristotle , that the world was ab aeterno : Whether Corpus Sphaericum tangit planum , only in puncto ? What is the cause , why the Sea keepeth a different course in it ebbing & flowing in different Countreyes ; though to those seuerall Countreyes the Moone beareth one and the same aspect of it light ? Whether , when the loadstone draweth iron vnto it , this be effected through a naturall Sympathy of these two Bodyes , or only through the proper forme of the loadstone ? And Whether the turning of the irons point to the North ( being touched with the loadstone ) is to be referred to some huge supposed mountayne of loadstone in the vttermost Northparts ; or to any one place of the Heauens neere to the Northpole ; or to the intrinse call forme of the loadstone it selfe ? Whether Algebra be a distinct Art from Arythmetyke ; or but the same , aduanced to it height and perfection ? Whether in the miracles of Christ and S. Peter , exhibited in curing of corporall diseases ( and the like may be demanded of all true miracles of this nature ) God did for the tyme infuse a Physicall quality ( for example ) in the skirt of our Sauiours garment , & in the shadow of S. Peter , which per potentiam obedientialem ( as the Scholemen speake ) did worke vpon the diseases , and so cure them ; Or els God himselfe did immediatly worke these supernaturall effects , ad praesentiam illorum , at the presence of the skirt and shadow , which in their absence otherwise he would not worke ? And finally ( to omit diuers others such nyce and abstruse speculations , and but to touch a little vpon Diuinity ) Whether Communicatio Idiomatum , flowing from the Hypostaticall vnion in Christ , is reall in respect of the different natures in Christ ; or with reference only to the Hypostasis of both the Natures ?

In these ( I say ) and many such like curiosities ( for so I may tearme them ; this last only excepted ) diuers of you haue no doubt spent ( and perhaps with great commondation ) many howres by perusing with your owne eyes seuerall Authours , & by discussing the arguments brought on all sides to fortify their different opinions : And yet it mattereth litle , on which syde the Truth lyeth in most of these speculations ; But wheresoeuer it is found in them , we may equally and indifferently breake forth with the three Children in praysing of God , for his Omnipotency and Wisdome , discouered in them ; saying , d d Dan. 3. Benedicite Omnia opera Domini Domino .

If then you haue bene so industrious and breathles herein , and so absorpt in the delight of these lesse necessary studyes , O with what a spirituall Leithargy are such of you possessed , who in matters of Religion ( the truth or falshood wherof concerns your soules interminable and endles happynes or misery ) shall runne on headlong , till you come to your graues in an vnexamined and yet resolued opinion agaynst the Catholike fayth , with a supine resignation of your iudgments in all poynts of Religion ( without further tryall ) to the wrytings ( for example ) of Caluin and Beza ; whose pestiferous Scripts many make their Catechismes ? Men charged ( euen by their owne e e Caluin is charged with Sodomy by the publike records of the Citty of Noyon in France , yet extant ; And by Conradus Slussenberg ( a Protestant ) in Theol. Caluin . printed 1594. l. 2. fol. 72. Beza is charged with the same cryme , by the foresaid Slussenberg , vbi supra , and l. 1. fo. 93. By Titilmannus Heshutius ( a Pretestant ) in his booke entituled : Verae & sanae confessionis . And the same is confessed of Beza by D. Morton , ( though most falsly excused ) in his Apolog. Catholica , part. 1. l 2. c. 21. Brethren ) with the execrable cryme of Sodomy : And remember you not , that we f f Math. 7. gather not grapes of thorns , nor figs of th isles ?

But herewith ( most excellent Academians ) I will end ; and craue pardon for this my fulnes of speach , entreating you to call to mynd those words : meliora g g Prouerb . 27. sunt vulnera diligentis , quam fraudulenta oscula odientis . And thus remitting you to the perusall of these following Dialogues , I will with my incessant prayers solicit the Highest , ( who is h h Iac. 1. Pater luminum ; and from whom , Omne datum optimum , & omne bonum perfectum descendit ) so to enlighten your iudgements in your studyes and courses ; that after this life , you may be as truly beatifyed with the Intuitiue knowledge of all things , in the most happy vision of God ; As now here vpon earth , you labour to enrich your mynds , mith all commendable Discursiue knowledge .

Yours in Christ Iesus . I. C.

THE CONVERTED IEW. OR A DIALOGVE WHEREIN IS PROOVED , That the Church of ROME hath made no change in Faith , and Religion , since the first Plantation of it by the Apostles . INTERLOCVTOVRS , MICHEAS A IEWISH RABBIN , CARDINALL BELLARMINE DOCTOVR WHITAKERS , MICHEAS .

MOST ILLVSTRIOVS CARDINAL , and most reuerend and learned Doctour . Such is the spreading fame of both your perfections in the sacred knowledge of Deuinity , as that the report therof hath ( I confesse ) euen giuen wings to my old age , to hasten my fleight to this noble Citty of Cosmopolis in Vtopia ; which , as being honored through both your presence , is for the time become the Rendeuous of all good literature .

Touching my selfe , know you both , that I am by birth , and ( till this present ) also in Religion , a Iew ; by name Micheas , who euer haue honoured the Lord a a Psalm . 83. of Hoasts , the God b b Exod. 3. of Abraham , the God of Isaack , the God of Iacob , and the Lord God of the Hebrews ; beleeuing with your Apostle Paul , God grant with the like happy successe to him in change of my Religion , who by his rysing faule , as I may tearme it , was no sooner strucken downe to the ground , then he began to ascend towards Heauen , all c c Act. 24. things , that are written in the Law , and the Prophets , and d d Act. 22. instructed according to the verity of the , Law , of the Fathers .

Of late I haue diligently perused , the writings of your Euangelists ( the foure Historigraphers of that Holy Man , whome you Christians call Iesus : I also haue exactly red the Acts of your Apostles ; these faithfull seruants of the said Iesus , who first sowed the seedes of their Maisters heauenly doctrine , and after did watter them with their owne bloud : To be short , I haue bene much conuersant in these Letters Missiues ( if so they may be called ) I meane , in the Epistles of the said Apostles , written to diuers Nations , for their better instruction in the Christian Faith ; as also in that most abstruse worke of your Sauiours Best-beloued , commonly called the Apocalyps .

I haue made most particuler reference of all those writings , to the Prophesies recorded in our owne Law : and I do freely confesse ( and indeede with an ineffable griefe ) that , that Holy One , whome my Fore-Fathers ( and in them my selfe ) did put to the most opprobrious death of the Crosse , was , and is the Sonne of the Highest , and the true Sauiour of the World ; and therefore I thinke it the lesse wounder , that the stony harts of vs Iewes ( best discouered by such our cruell proceedings ) were figured by the Tables of Stones , wherin the Law was first giuen to vs . Yea I am so inalterably perswaded herein , that I do auouch , that all the cheife Particularities concerning him , were most punctually prophesied by the Antient Fathers of the Iewish Law : Thus ( for example ) was his Precursor foretold in Esay . cap. 40. That he should be borne of a Virgine Esay . 7. The place of his birth , Micheas , 5. The death of the Cheldren at his birth , Ierom. 31. His preaching , Esay . 61. His foure Eunngelists , Ezechiel . 1. The chusing of his Apostles , Psalm . 8. His riding vpon an Asse into Ierusalem , Esay . 62. and Zachary . 9 , The betraying of him by him , who dipped his hand in the dish , Psalm . 41. The Iewes spittiug in his Face , and buffeting of him , Esay . 50. The Iewes mocking of him , Psalm . 22. The deuiding of his garments . Psalm . 22. Their giuing to him gaule and Vinegar to drinke , Psalm . 69. The manner of his death , by piercing his hands and feete , Psalm . 22. His staying in the graue three dayes , Ionas . 2. His Resurrection , Psalm . 15. and 132. His Ascenti●n , Psalm . 109. Finally , ( to omitt diuers other lesser passages ) The descending of the Holy Ghost , Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premis●es , I do fully acknowledg , that in him , and by him ▪ our Law , ( which did serue , but to shadow this time of Grace ) is now abrogated ; and therfore my selfe , as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstrations of the trueth of your Chistian Religion , do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ ; do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe , a Christian ( though as yet , but an analogicall , and halfe Christian ) and with reference to the time of the Law , and the time of Grace , and the adumbration of the one in the other , I thinke , I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times : The Euangelicall Law , and the Leuiticall Ghospell ; since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied ; the Gohspel , the Law complet , and actually performed .

CARDINALL BELLARMINE

LEarned Rabby . I much reioyce at your change in Religion ; and indeed , that precise correspondency , which your selfe haue obserued ; betweene the Old Testament and the New ( wherby you may se , the Apostle had iust reason to say : e e 1. Cor. 10. Omnia in figura contingebant illis ) is of force to corroborate , and strengthen you in our Christian Faith , against all those f f Ephis. 6. spirituales nequitiae , or any other contrary assaults . For now you se , that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices , and Ceremonies is taken away , through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord , and Sauiour . Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination , and confesse with the chiefe Apostle , That g g Act. 4. there is no other name vnder Heauen ( then that of Iesus ▪ ) giuen vnto Men , wherein we may be saued .

D. WHITAKER .

It is most true , which my Lord Cardinall hath said ; for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed , and indiuisible Trinity ; who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man ; who died , to the end , we should not dye : Christus h h Hebr. 9. semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata ▪ hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death , euen the death of the Crosse . for i i Philip. 2. which thing God hath exalted him , and hath giuen him a name , which is aboue all Names ; that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen , in Earth , and vnder the earth : Therefore he is to be your cornerstone , wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation . And comfort your selfe ( Micheas ) with this , that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death , yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian .

MICHEAS

All this I constantly beleeue . But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion , one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me . I se you Christians , though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine ; yet through your many Controuersies in Religion , do rest deuided amongst your selues ( like so many distracted , and disordered troupes , or sqadrōs ) not affording Saluation on to an other : soe as from whence I am departed , I do well know , but what part to follow , I am most vncertaine . And though I firmly beleeue , that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued ; yet withall I as cnnstātly beleeue , that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ , shall not be saued .

Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the Protestant , for his destroying , and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion , to wit , the Doctrine of Free-will , of Purgatory , of Praying to Saincts , of Merit of workes , and ( to omit many other controuerted points ) the Reall Presence in the Eucharist , and Sacrafice of the Alter ; and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick . The Protestant ( on the other side ) for the Catholicke his mantaining , and beleeuing the said points , doth style him Superstitious , Idolatrous , and , as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation . And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant , and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary ( the one constantly affirming , the other peremptorily denying ( as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede .

Here now my deuided Soule ( licke the dissressed prisoner , who hauing broken the Iaile , knoweth not what way to flie , for his best refuge ) tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines , is ignorant towards what shoore to saile , if I be a Protestant , I can be no Catholicke ; If a Catholicke , I am no Protestant ; The on I can but be , both I cannot be . That threatens to me the brand of , Heresy ; this of Superstition , and Idolatry : O God , that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides , with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements . But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour : Vt in * * Tertul. pessimis aliquid boni , sic in optimis nonnihil mali .

CARDINALL BELLARMINE .

True it is , that there are many differences in Christian Religion ; and each good mans greife is hereby the greater : for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation ; and valew of them ; contention about Faith ( in a vulgar eye ) lesneth it . But these ( you are to conceiue , Micheas ) take their course not from the Faith of Christ ; ( for it is but one : vna k k Ephis. 4. fides , vnum baptisma ) but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments , which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities , both Deuine , and Humane .

Therfore ( Micheas ) the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion , which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate , and intangle you , build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion , principally vpon Gods sacred Word , as it is propounded , and interpreted by Christ his Church ; and to her repaire in all your doubts , since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words : dic c c Math. 18. Ecclesiae , et Ecclesiam non audieret , sit tibi sicut Ethnicus , et Publicanus . Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions , which are deriued through a continued hand of time , euen from the Apostles : Id m m Tertul. ab initio . quod ab Apostolis : for it is true , that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture ; but it is as true , that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours , against Scripture . Read the Generall Councels , with whome Christ is euer present , for he hath promised , when but two n n Maeth . 18. or three are geathered togeather in his name ( much more when seuerall hundreds ) he well be in the middest with them ; and obserue the Heresies condemned in them : Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers ; and remember that sentence : Interroga o o Deutro. 4. de diebus antiquis . assuring your selfe , that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them , is agreable to the Faith , first taught by Christ , and his Apostles .

Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church , which the Apostle himselfe ( for our greater security ) hath honored with the title of Columna , p p 1. Timoth 3. et Firmamentum veritatis ; And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men , who thinke to shew their loue to the Truth , by their hate to this Pillar , and Foundation of Truth . Besides , this deportment disculps great Humility ; a Character euen of Christ himselfe : dicite q q Mat. 12. a me , quia humilis sum corde . so true it is , that an humble man is like to a lowly vally , sweetly seated . Thus doing ( Micheas ) no doubt you will embrace our Catholicke Faith ; of which point I am in greater hope ; in that it is obserued , that whereas many r r At Dauid Georg Professour at Basil . Hamelinanus &c. Protestants haue becom Iewes , yet not any Iew a Protestant .

D. WHITAKER .

The Cardinall here hath giuen you to large a scope ; since most of these are but humane , and morall inducements , which stand subiect to errour , and falshood , and you are to call to minde , that to run well out of the right way , is noe better , then to stand still : s s D. Whit. so saith contra Camp. Rat. 8. Pálin dromêsan , ' è dramêin cacôs .

Therfore let your groundworke be next vnder Christ , only the Holy Scriptures . These are the only Iudges of all Controuersies : These are of that worth , as that they are profitable ( as the Apostle t t 2. Timo. 3. speaketh ) To Doctrine , to reprooue , to correction , to instruction , which is in righteousnes , that the man of God may be perfect , instructed in all good workes : of that Clearenes , as that iustly they may be called ; lucerna u u Psal. 18. pedibus meis : Of that fulnes , and amplitude , as we are threatned vnder paine of hauing our names blotted x x Apocal. vlt. out of the booke of life if we either add , or detract from thence : finally of that easines , and facility , as that for picking out the true sence , we are to , receiue it by the benefit of our owne spirit , instructed by the Holy Ghost : y y Ioan. 3. spiritus vbi vult , spirat .

MICHEVS .

You both speake learnedly . And first touching your directions ( my L. Card. ) I hold them most graue & waighty . Yet seing I haue spent all my time chiefly in studying the Law , and the Prophets ( being heretofore a Rabnie in our Iewish Sinagogue ) and seing that multiplity of reading , which your method exacts , ( to wit of the Auntient Fathers , the Generall Councels , Ecclesiasticall Histories ) is to great a burden to be imposed now vpon the shoulders of my old age ( my selfe not likely to liue so many years , as will be answerable to so infinit a labour ) Therefore I must bethinke my selfe of some other more short , and abreuiated course , for the perfect setling of my iudgment in the Christian Religion .

Touching your graue aduice ( M. Doctour ) of relying only vpon the Writen word . Grant , that the Scripture alone were of it selfe sufficient to define , and determine all Controuersies in Religion ; yet I am so conscious of my owne weaknes herein , as that considering the seuerall sences vsually giuen vpon one , and the same text , I should euer rest doubtfull ( once abandoning the sence , giuen by the ioynt consent of all Ancient Doctours of what construction to make choyce ; and the rather seing the Scripture witnesseth of it selfe , That no Prophesy z z 2. Petr. 2. of the Scriprure is made , by priuat Intepretation . And sure I am , that if we Iewish Rabbins should take liberty to interprete the olde Testament , according to euery particular conceipte of each of vs , we longe since should haue begotten many dissentions in Faith amonge vs .

I may add hereto , that I am the more easily thus perswaded , euen by both your speches at this present ; seing both of you do strengthen , and fortifie your different iudgments ( touching the finall determining of Controuersies ) euen from the Scripture it selfe . But what ? doth the Scripture speake different ( or rather contrary things ? ) Noe. The Scripture is like to the Authour of Scripture ; euer the same , and vnchangable : Ego a a Malach. 3. sum dominus , et non mutor . And indeede to speake plainly , when you vrge those words : spiritus vbi vult , spirat . whereby you intimate the guift of the Priuat spirit , interpreting the Scripture , I euer disliked this Principle ( euen before I beleeued in Christ ) as ready to create in differently any one Religion as well as an other : so that , that man , who for his Faith , and Religion grounds himselfe vpon this Reuealing Spirit , and consequently is ready to stampe any Religion , which himselfe best pleaseth , is like ( in my iudgment ) to on that should be immediatly made rather of the first Matter , then of the Elements well tempred togeather ; since he is in possibility , Anything . But to proceede : seing the directions of neither of you ( in regard of some difficult circumstances accompaning them ) can at this present sorte vnto my case , I must make election of some other method , for the sētling of my fluctuating Conscience in matter of Faith . And ( vnder both your fauours ) it shal be this , wheras by seriously perusing the New Testament ( as you Christians call it ) I am become with infinite thanks to the Lord of Hostes , a Christian , though as yet , but a Christian imperfect , and scarsly initiated : So out of the same deuine Records , I am instructed , that the Church of Rome in those primatiue times receaued the true Christian Faith , incontaminate and free from all errour . Now if those sacred writings be of sufficient force with me , for my relinquishing of my ancient Iewish faith ; then ought they as securely to warrant my Iudgment , that the true Faith of Christ was planted in the Apostles time in Rome .

This last point is confirmed to me by your great Apostle Paule , who in his Epistle to the Romans , much celebrateth the Faith of Rome , saying : b b Rom. 1. To all , that be at Rome the beloued of God , called to be Saints , Grace to you . And againe I thanke c c Rom. ibid. my God for you , &c. because your Faith is renowned throughout the whole world . And yet more : your d d Rom. 16. obdience is published in euery place . finally , the Apostle is so full in aduancing the Faith of the Romans , as that he particularly euen in words , ascribs one , and the same Faith to himselfe , and them saying : That , e e Rom. 1. which is common to vs both , your Faith , and mine . From all which texts it is euicted , that Rome in those first times enioyed a true and perfect Faith . Now here it comes to be examined , whether Rome , since her first embracing of it , hath changed her Faith ; or othirwise she retaines without any alteration the same doctrine , which first the Apostles did plant in her .

This point ( most excellent Men ) deserus an exact discussing , and may well seeme to be worthy your serious disputs : My owne want in your Ecclesiasticall Histories ( from whence cheifly this question is to receiue it triall ) doth pleade for my ignorance herein , and makes my humble request ( for the better estableshing of my yet vnsetled iudgment ) to you both , to enter into a graue skirmish , and feight of disputation herein . Both of you are learned , and therefore ( by vrging what can be said on either side ) able to accomplish this my desire : both of you are charitable , ( as I must suppose ) and therefore ( no doubt ) willing ( for my confirmation in the Christian Faith ) to vndertake this my wished taske for Charity ( as euer desirous to do good ) omnia f f 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 13. sperat , sustinet ; & a charitable man partakes of the nature of a glasse , which is as ready to giue , as to receaue on s fauour . My foundation is here the words of your owne Apostle ; I humbly entreate , that your learned discourses would raise the wales , and I shall attend your speeches with a greedy , and listning eare . Then in the close of all I may be better assured , whether for my Soules eternall felicity , I should subiect my selfe , as a member to the present Church of Rome ; or otherwise consociate my selfe with the Protestants ; the presumed Reformers of the said Church .

CARD . BELLARM.

Micheas , your iudgment hath made choise of a most important subiect , and Christian Religion teacheth vs to be benificiall to all , maximè g g Galat 6. domesticis fidei , within which number , I hope shortly , I may place you . And therefore my paines ( according to my smale ability ) shall not be wanting to accomplish your request ; and I much commend your desire herein ; for who neglecteth his owne Soule , is not present to himselfe .

D. WHITAKERS .

The Groundworke ( Micheas ) of this your desired disputation I acknowledg most firme ; and I shal be ready to afford my best furtherance therto , though in regard of my owne smale mite of learning , I shal be like ( perhapps to the widdow in the Chospel , who gaue lesse , then any other , and yet was more charitable , then any other .

But touching the Basis , and foundation of this future Discourse , We do h h D. Whita . thus saith . cont. Camp. Rat. 7 grant , that the Church of Rome was holy , when Paule gaue it those foresaid praises ; as also when he further said : without intermission I make mention of you alwaies in my prayers . When also he i i D. Whita . vb supra . said : He would k k Rom. 15. come to the Romans in aboundance of the blessing of Christ ; and when in freedome he did preach to them the Ghospel of Christ . Yea which is more : We l l D. Whit. cont. Camp. Rat. 7. freely confesse , that the Cuhrch of Rome was a famous Church of Christ , when Clemence did sit in that seate , and when the prophane Roman Caesars did put to death the Bishops of Rome . But since those times , that most remarkable change of Faith haue violently inuaded , and posessed that Church , I will vndertake to prooue , neither will I draw backe herein , but shal be prepared to manifest to you , how since the Apostles times , the Roman m m D. Whit. vseth these very words L. cont. Camp. Rat. 7. saying : Haec sunt Ecclesiae vestrae insignia , Superstitio , Infidelitas , Antichristus , Epicurus . Wolues haue inuaded the Church , and ceased not to deuoure the flocke ; for the badges of the Roman Church are superstition , Infidelity , Antichrist , and Epicurisme .

CARD . BELLARM.

How now M. Doctour . Such passion in the beginning ? what Philippicks , and inuectiue declamations are these ; the accustomed language of most of our new illuminated Brethren , not sorting to your presumed grauity ? Therefore either forbeare the like hereafter , or let vs forbeare to enter into any dispute : for I do not loue to conuerse with those Men , whose tongues are vsed to speake nothing but Satyrs .

D. WHITAKERS .

My Lord . my feruour to the Ghospel hath thus transported me : The n n Psalm . 68. et Ioan. 2. zeale of thy howse hath eaten me vp : But pardon ( for euer ) this my holy impatience , and I will promise you to proceede hereafter in all serenity , and mildnes ; and will prooue the change of Religion in the Church of Rome , not by conuitiating it with intemperate language , but with weight of argument .

CARD . BELLARM.

You say well . And therefore In the name of the Father , the Sonne , and the Holy Ghost , let vs beginne .

And here first M. Doctour , you are to remember , that seing you affirme , that Religion is changed in the Church of Rome , since that Church was first ( as it were ) cultiuated , & tilled therewith by the labour of the Apostles ; you are thereby obliged to prooue this your assertion ; And I ( as houlding the Negatiue ) am bound only to answere , and to repell your arguments . Neuerthelesse I will supererogate with you in methode herein , and will vndertake to prooue posituely , that Rome since it first being Christian , did neuer speake of so much , as any on materiall , and dogmaticall Article , ( which is the point in question ) of her primatiue Faith .

Now for the greter conuinceing of your contrary position , I meane to strengthen and fortifie the truth herein , euen from the testimonies of your owne learned Men : and thus the Protestants penns shall deadly wound the Protestants Faith . Therefore tell me ( M. Doctour ) if you will quietly subscribe in this time of disputation , to the ingenious , and plaine Confession of your owne learned , and iudicious Brethren .

D. WHITAKERS

Most willingly : for o o D. Whit. cont. Bellar. L. de Eccles. coutrouers . 2. q. 5. c. 14. saith : efficax est Aduersariorum ipsorum contra ipsos testimonium &c. et quidem fateor veritatem a suis inimici● Testimoniis extorquere posse . the argument must needs be strong , and efficatious , which is taken from the confession of the Aduersaries ; and I do freely acknowledg , that the Truth is able to extorte testimonies euen from it Enemies . And this point is further warranted with all force of reason : for why should learned men confesse against themselues , and in behalfe of their Aduersaries , were it not that the racke of an vndeniable Truth forceth them theirto ?

CARD . BELLARM.

It is most true , and the matter so standeth indeede ; and your speech well sorteth to that sentence of S. Augustine ; to wit , That p p cont. Donat. post coll. c. 24. truth is more forcible to wringe out Confession , then any racke or torment . well then to proceede to the matter . And because things contracted in method , enter more easily ( after a piramic all manner , as I may say ) into the eye of the vnderstanding ; Therefore for the more facilitating of this point here handled , you are to coceiue ( M. Doctour ) that in any notable change of Religion , these things following can be demonstrated and pointed out . q q Bell. thus saith verbal ly in l. 4. de Eccles. c. 5 de Not. Eccles. Nota secunda . First , the Authour of such a Change . Secondly . the new opinion or doctrine . Thirdly , the time , in which this new doctrine was first broahed , or preached . Fourthly , the place , in which it was taught . Fiftly , and lastly , the persons , who did oppugne , and resist it at the first : All which are found euen in the Church of Christ , which neuerthelesse was no new Church , but only a certaine mutation or change of the state of the Church , according to the predictions of the Prophets . For first we knowe , the authour thereof was Christ ; The new Articles of beleefe were principally , the Articles of the Trinity , and Incarnation ; the time , when this doctrine was first preached , was in the fifteenth yeare of Tyberius Caesar ; The place Iudëa ; finally the oppugners of it were the Scribes , and Pharises . Now whereas we are able to demonstrate all these points in the beginning of euery particular sect , or Heresie ; our Aduersaries notwithstanding cannot set downe any one of these circumstances concerning our Church or Faith , euer since the Apostles times .

But because of all these Circumstances , the Time of this supposed change is chiefly to be weighed , I will begin therewith , remitting diuers of the other Circumstances to be hereafter discussed by vs ; and leuing the rest for greater breuity to some other fitting opertunity . And as touching the Circumstances of Time , I will first discourse therof by meanes of a distribution of three distinct times since Rome first receaued the Ghospel of Christ .

First then , we will take into our consideration , how longe it is granted by your Protestants , that Rome did perseuer without any alteration in her prematiue Faith . Secondly we will enquire , and set downe the acknowledged continuance of that time , during all which season the now present Faith of Rome hath continued ; That is , how longe Papistry ( as you commonly tearme it ) hath bene publikly professed , and taught throughout all Christendome . Thirdly and lastly , we will then take a view of the times , betweene these two former seuerall times : for these two times being once acknowliged on all sides ( to wit , the time , during which the Church of Rome confessedly kept her first Faith taught by the Apostles , and the time , during which the present Romane Faith hath continued from this day vpward ) it ineuitably followeth , that this supposed change of Religion did either happen in the interstitium , and meane time betweene the two former Periods of times , or els , that there hapened no such chang in Religion in the Church of Rome at all . Now concerning the first of these times , how long ( in the Protestants iudgements ) M. Doctour did the Church of Rome retayne without staine , or alteration in any point of moment , or Article of beliefe ( for that only is to be enquired ) the Faith first deseminated by the Apostles ?

D. WHITAKERS .

I will confesse in all ingenuity , that diuers of our owne learned Brethren do teach , that Rome retained her purity of Fayth without any such alteration by you intimated , till after the deaths of Optatus , Epiphanius , and Augustine , which is during the space of foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ .

CARD . BELLARMINE

You say most truely , and I do like your playnesse herein , since he is truely politike ( espetially in matters of Religion , which require all candour in theire menaging ) who is not politicke . For wheras our Catholicke writers haue much insisted , that Tertullian , prouoked the Heretickes of his daies to the Succession of the Bishops of Rome , your owne D. Fulke giueth this reason touching such his prouocation , in these words : The r r D. Fulk . in his Coful . of Purgat . p. 374. argument then drawne from Succession was good , because the Church of Rome retained ( by Succession vntill Tettullians dates ) that Faith , which it did first receaue from the Apostles . To whose iudgment in this particular reason your selfe ( M. Doctour ) in your booke writen against me subscribs , thus saying : from hence s s D. Whit. co●t . a Bell. l. de Eccles. where he spoketh of certaine Apostol. Churches , & perticulerly of the Church of Rome . we do vnderstand why Tertullian did appeale to those Churches ; to wit , because the Churches did then hould the Apostolicall Doctrine by a perpetuall succession .

But to descend further in time , touching the graunted preseruation of the Faith of Rome wheras in like manner some Chatholicke Authors haue alledged the same argument , drawne from the Succession of Bishops by the example of Irenaeus , Cyprian , Optatus , Hierome , Vincentius Lyrinensis , and Augustine , ( all which Fathers most rested in the Succession of the Bishops of Rome , still continued till their daies ) your foresaid D. Fulke answereth in behalfe of the sayd Fathers in this sort : That these t t In his Confutat . of Purgatory pag. 372. Fathers especially named the Church of Rome , it was , because the Church of Rome at that time , as it was founded by the Apostles ; so it continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles . With whome accordeth D. lewell , saying : Aswell Augustine , as also other godly Fathers rightly yealded reuerence to the Sea of Rome &c. for the purity of Religion , which was there preserued a long time without spot .

To conclude , Caluine himselfe ( euen in the same manner ) answereth the foresayd argument of Succession of Bishops in the Church of Romê , insisted vpon by Irenaeus , Tertullian , Origen , u u In his Reply to D. Ha●ding pag. 246. Augustine , Optatus , Epiphanius , and others ; for thus Caluine speaketh : Cùm extra x x 〈…〉 it . l. 4. c. 2. sect. 3. controuersiam esset , nihil à principio vsque ad aet●●tem illam mutatum fuisse in doctrina &c. Seing it was a Poynt out of Controuersy that nothing in doctrine , from the beginning to that very age was changed ; these holy Fathers did take that , which they thought sufficient , for the destroying of all new Errours ; ( to wit , ) the doctrine constantly and with an vnanimous consent , retayned euen from the Apostles dayes , till their tymes . Thus Caluine .

To these fromer I may alledge that Sentence : out of D. Fulke , saying : The y y Retentiues pag. 85. Popish Church &c. departed from the Vniuersall Church of Christ , long since Augustins departure out of this lyfe ; Thus he granting , that till S. Augustins death , the Church of Rome was the true Church : so euident and clere ( we se ) it is , that the Church of Rome neuer changed her Religion from the Apostles first Planting of it , vntill the times of S. Augustin , Epiphanius , Optatus &c. which was ( as is aboue sayd ) foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ .

Thus farre ( M. Doctor ) concerning the durance of the tymes ( euen by the Protestants frequent confessions ) that no change of fayth was made in the Church of Rome ; Tonching which poynt Irefere you ( for greater satisfaction ) to certaine quoted places of the aforesayed Fathers , to wit , of z z Fp. ad . Pom 〈…〉 p. ●7 . ad . Damas . Hierome , a a L. 3. aduer. Haeres . c. 3. Ire●aeus , b b Tom. 7. in Psal. Cent. par●e Do 〈…〉 2. Ep. 165. et Lib. ae vtilit . Credena● . c. 17. Augustine , c c Aduer Haeres . Paulo pos 〈…〉 init . Vincentius Lyr●ne●sis , d d De obi● . frac● . Ambrose &c. All which Fathers in their writings do constantly auerre , that the Faith preached in their dayes in the Church of Rome was the true Fayth ; and consequently , was neither then nor afore subiect to change or alteration .

Now all this being made thus euident , it followeth according to our designed Method , that we consider the number of those ages , during the lenght of all which from this day vpwards , the present Roman Fayth hath ( by the lyke Confession of the Learned Protestants ) bene generally taught : Seing how long the Protestants ) bene generally taught : Seing how long the Protestants do grant , that the Church of Rome hath from this day contined in her present Faith ; so long it followeth , by their owne implicit censures , and most necessary inferences , that the Church of Rome neuer altered her Fayth : Therfore ( M. Doctour ) I would know of you , what your learned Men do generally teach about the continuance , and antiquity of our present Roman , and Catholicke Religion .

D. WHITAKERS

I will not deny but that our Doctours do ascrybe an antiquity to your Popish Fayth , for a thousand yeares at least ; For first D. Humfry ( my worthy e e So Doct. whit stileth D. Clarke in L. con . Camp. Rat. 8. meaning theirby his Cem●●les et consocius in Doctrina . sy'mmachos cai symmy'stes ) shewing what Religion Augustine planted in England , being sent by Gregory the Great , then Pope of Rome ( who liued in the yeare 590 ) thus instanceth in the particular points of the then Roman Religion : In f f D. Hum●●y in Iesuitism . part . 2. Rat. 5. Pag. 5. et Pag. 627 Ecclesiam verò quid inuexerunt Gregorius et Augustinus ? Onus ceremoniarum &c. what did Gregory and Angustine bringé into the Church ? They did bring a burden of Ceremonies ; They did bring in the Archiepiscopall Pall , for the solemnization of the Masse ; They did bring in Purgatory &c. the oblation of the Healthfull Oast , and prayer for the dead &c. Relicks , Transubstantiation &c. a new conscecration of Temples &c. from all which what other thing is effected then the introducing of Indulgences , Monachisme . Papisme , and the rest of the Chäos of Popish Superstition ? all this did Augustine the great Monke ( being instructed herein by Gregory the Monke ) bring to the English men . Thus farre D. Humfry .

CARD . BELLARM.

Well then , M. Doctour , it clearely appeares by this , that at S. Gregory his sending of Augustine into England ( which was about a thousand yeares since ) our present Roman Religion was then wholy , and publickely practised in Rome ; & that if the Church of Rome had suffered any change of Faith from that first taught by the Apostles , that this change should haue beene made , not since , but before Gregories time , and before he had sent Augustine to plant in England the Fayth of Christ . I may adde , M. Doctour , in further confirmation of D. Humfrey his iudgment herein , the iudgment of your owne Centurists , who in their Index , or Alphabeticall table of the sixt Century , at the Word : Gregory , set downe with particuler figures ofreferences , where euery such mentioned opinion may be found as followeth Eiusdem Error de bonis operibus , de Confessione , de coniugio , de Ecclesia , de sanctorum ●nuocatione , do Inferno , de Libero arbitrio , de ●ustificatione , de Purgatorio , de Paeni●entia , de satisfactione &c. And which is more , your sayd Centurists g g Al-Which places following of the Cen ●rists . thus charging Gregory are to be founde in their sixt Century after the first Edition ther of between Col 369. and Col. 432. do further accuse Gregory , out of his owne writings with consecration of Altars , Chalices , & Corporals , with oblation of sacrifice for the dead , with translation of Reltques , with Monachisme , with Pilgrimages , with consecration of Churches , with Masse , & spri●kling of holy-water , With consecration of the fort of Baptisme , of Chr●●s●●e & Oyle , with celibratio of Masse , & finally With claime of soueraignty ouer all Churches : All which places of the Centurists , charging him , are to be found in their sixt Century after the first edition thereof .

To these former acknowledgments , we may adioin the words of Luke Osiander ( your famous Protestant ) which are these : Augustinus h h In his ep●tom . Hist. Eccles. Cent. 6. ●ag 289. Romanos Ritus et consuetudines , Anglicanis Ecclesus obstitit : And then immediatly after he perticulerly setteth downe seuerall rites , & doctrines , practized , and beleeued at this present by the Church of Rome ; which ( as he confesleth ) Augustine did plant , & establish in England : a poynt so euident , that euen your owne selfe , M. Doctour , auertes , i i D. Whit. Lib. de Eccle. cent . Bella● . pag. 144. that Boniface the third , ( who liued anno . 605. and presently after the foresaid Gregory ) and all his successours were Antichrists . Yea you speaking of the conuersion of England , ( made by this Gregory ) and of other conuersions of Countries by other Popes after , thus conclude . The Conuersions k k D , whit . vbi supra p. 339. of so many countries were not pure , but corrupt . With you herein Dauaeus ( that remarkable Protestant ) conspirech , who thus basely censureth of Gregories conuerting of England : Purgatio illa , quam Gregorius primus fecit &c. fuit i●ebriatio mer etricis mundo facta , de qua est Apocalips . 17. et 18. Thus referring our Conuersion to Christianity , to the worke of Antichrist . And thus , M Doctour , you here may see , how the Church of God ( through an ouer vnkind peruerting , and misconsturing her most motherly , and charitable endeauours ) hath reason even to complaine , and grieue at those , who vaunt themselues for her owne Children : so the Vine being vntimely cut , weeps out its mishap , through out it owne wound .

Now from all these former testimonies of your selfe , M. Doctour , & other Protestant writers , we may infallibly conclude , that from this day till we arriue , at least to the age of the fore-said S. Gregory , the present Roman , & Catholicke Religion was taught in diuers Countries ; & consequently ( seeing those Countries receiued their instruction in Faith from Rome ) that it was not during all this time introduced into the Church of Rome , as an Innouation , and change of the Faith , afore professed by the said Church .

Now it being made euident ; first , that the Church of Rome did retaine her purity of Faith , the first foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ ; and also , that for this last thousand yeares , the present Roman , & Catholicke Faith , hath not ( at any time thereof ) bin first brought into the world ; but during the said thousand yeares it hath bin continually the generall taught doctrine of the Church of Rome : It now followeth , that we take into our consideration the number of years which passed betweene the first foure hundred , and forty from Christ , and these last thousand yeares from vs . Which number ( seeing it is sixteene hundred yeares , & some more from Christ to vs ) amounteth to about one hundred , and sixty yeares .

Well then if here we can prooue that no change of Fayth in the Church of Rome , within the compasse of this 160. yeares ; then followeth it vnauoidably , that the Church of Rome neuer to this day , hath suffered any alteration in Fayth , and Religion , since its first embracing of the Christian Fayth .

That no Change of Faith did happen within the compasse of the sayd 160. yeares , I prooue seuerall waies , yet all conducing to erect this one maine truth ; like as diuers lesser numbers ( though counted after different waies ) make vp but one , and the same great number . And first , this assertion of mine is prooued from the doctrine , which was beleeued , and generally taught at such tyme , as Constantine ( who was our first Christian Emperour ) was conuerted to Christianity , which was about the yeare 320. after Christ , and therefore before the foresayd 160. yeares .

That the Faith in his time , was the same , that the Church of Rome professeth at this present , appeareth from the frequent testimonies of your former Centurists ; who most elaborately , & punctually do record all the particuler Articles of the present Romane Fayth , to be beleeued most constantly by the said Constantine ; and that he did cause to be put in practise all the Ceremonies , now vsed in the Church of Rome . And the said Centurists are so exact , and diligent in their enumeration of all the Catholicke Doctrines beleeued by Constantine , and of the Catholicke Rites , and Ceremo ies obserued in his time ; as that they spend seuerall Columnes of the fourth Century touching this point ; to wit , from Column . 452. to Column . 497. or thereabout .

Now that not only Constantine himselfe , but also the whole fourth Age did generally beleeue , and professe the now professed Doctrine of the Romane Church , is in like sort abundantly confessed , & registred by the said Centurists , they spending most of the leaues of the said Century , in particularizing the now Catholicke Doctrines , and the doctours of that age beleeuing , & teaching them : and therefore for the greater manifestation of this point , I remit you , M. Doctour , to the ●●ligent perusall herein of their fourth Century : touching which particuler subiect , I am so confident that I dare auouche , that by the industry of the said Centurists , the true state of the Church in that age is so painfully , & articulatly ( according to my former speaches registred ) as the perfect memory thereof ( as being exempt from all obliuion in future dayes ) is able to turne the syth of time : so certaine it is that euen in your owne Histories ( so long as they shal be extant ) the Catholicks shal be euer able to glasse the true face of their times .

But , M. Doctour , for the greater euidency of this point , I pray you tell me , whether it is your iudgment , that the Fathers liuing in the fourth Age ; but especially those who liued before the fourth Age , and consequently , before the aboue mentioned 160. yeares ) were Professours of your Protestant , or our Roman Faith .

D. WHITAKERS .

I make no doubt , but all of them professed with a generall consent our Protestant Fayth , & knew not the present Doctrine , and Faith of Rome .

CARD . BELLARM.

See how fowly you are mistaken , M. Doctour , And therefore seeing the discouery of errours is an establishment of the Truth : for the fuller manifesting of your ouer sight herein , I will insist ( for greater breuity ) only in six chiefe Articles of the Catholicke Faith , for a tast of the rest ; which euen by your owne Brethrens Confessions , were mantained by the Fathers liuing in the fourth age ; from whence we may necessarily inferre , that not any change touching those points was , brought into the Church of Rome , within the compasse of the said 160. years .

And first I will beginne with the doctrine of the Sacrifice 1. of the Masse : where ( as also in other Articles following I will discerpe here , & there , out of the great abundance thereof , some few acknowledgments of the Protestants . Now here you cannot deny , M. Doctour , but that touching Cyprian ( who liued Anno 240. your Centurists thus affirme : Sacerdotem l l Cent. 3. c. 4. col 3. Cyprianus in quit vice Christi furgi ; et Deo Patri Sacrificium offerre ; & for this very point they condemne him of Superstition . In like sort , they thus reprehend Ambrose : ( who liued anno . 370. )

m m Cent 4 c. 4. col. 295. Ambrose did vse certaine speaches &c. as to say Masse , to offer vp Sacrifice . Yea D. Fulke conspireth openly with the former Protestants thus speaking of these Fathers following : Tertullian , n n In his Confutation of Purgatory p. 362. et 303. et 393. Cyprian , Augustine , Hierome , ( of which some liued within the said 160. yeares , others long afore them ) do witnesse , that Sacrifice for il●e dead is a Tradition of the Apostles . To be short ; Sebastianus Francus ( no obscure Protestant among you ) thus writeth : o o Epist. d● abrogand & omnibus statu●is Ecclesiast. statim post Apostolo , omnia inuersa surt &c. Caena Domini in Sacrificium transformata est .

Touching the Primacy of the Bis●op of Rome , your Centurists do reprehend p p Cent. 4. col. 558. 2. Nazianzen q q Cent. 3. col. 94. Cyprian r r Cent. 3. cap 84. Origen , and s s Cent. 3. col. 85. Tertullian for their teaching of Peters Primacy . In like sort Pope Victor ( who liued in the yeare 160. after Christ ) did actually challenge , and practise this kind of Supremacy , as t t D. Fulke , In hi● answer to a Counterfeyt Catholick p. 36 D. Fulke acknowledgeth .

Concerning praier for the dead , D. u u In his Retentiue , pag. 106. Fulke thus writeth : Praier for the dead preuailed within three hundred years after Christ : And another of your owne Br●●hren thus confesseth : x x M. Georg Gifford In his demonstration that Brownists are ●●ll Dona●●s●● p. 38. 4. Praier for the dead was in the Church long before Augustins , daies , as appeareth in Cyprian , & Tertullian . But D. y y In his Confutation of Purgatory . p. 353. Fulke and z z In his examen part. 3. p. 110 Kempnitius do confesse , that Prayer for the dead is taught in the writings of Dionysius Areopagita who is a a Act. mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles ; whose writing ( in which Praier for the dead is taught ) are acknowledged by D. Fulke b b against the Rhemish . Test . 2. Thess. 2. supposing them not to be written by the said Dionysius , as some Protestants are not ashamed to auerre ) to be writen about thirteen hundred yeares since .

Touching Inuocation of Saints D. c c D. Fulke in Rhemish Testament . in 2. Petr. Cap. 1. Fulke confesseth , that in B●●sill , Nazia●zen , and Chrysos●ome is ●nuocatio● of Saints . The Centurists d d Cent. 3. Col 84. thus write of Cyprian . Cyprian doth not obscurely signify , that Martyrs , & dead Saints did may for the liuing . Yea they further charge Origen ( Who liued in no , 2●0 ) with praying himselfe to holy Iob , saying e e Cent. 3. col. 83. O beate Iob ora prouobis in seris ; They further f f Cent. 3. col. 75. charge him with inuocation of Angels .

They further thus concluding of that third age after Christ . videas g g Cent 3. c. 4. col . 83. ( 5. ) in Doctorum huius seculi scriptis , non obscura vestigta inuocationis Sanctorum ,

Touching Free-will . The foresaid Centurists h h Cent. 2. c. 10. col. 221. do reprehend Irenaeus ( who liued in the second age ) in that he admitteth ( as they say ) Free-well in spirituall actions . And i i Cent. 2. pag. 56. Osiander ( the Protestant ) thus saith of iustine ( who liued in the age of Irenaeus ) Iustine extolled too much the liberty of mans will , in obseruing the Commandements of God . To be short , another k k Abraham S●ulte●us in his medulla Theolog. ca Patrum pag. 379. ( 6. ) of your brethren doth thus couple the ancient Fathers of those ages , saying Cyprian , Tertullian , Origen , Clemens Alexandrinus , Iustine . Irenaeus , &c. erred in the doctrine of Free-will .

Lastly , touching the doctrine of Merit of workes , Luther l l In Galat. cap. 4. stileth Hierome , Ambrose , & Augustine , Iusticiarios Iustice-workers . In like sort the Centurists thus charge Origen , saying : Origen m m Cent. 3. col. 265. made workes the Cause of our Iustification . To conclude , D. Humfrey thus confesseth of Irenaeus , & Clemens : ( the one liuing in the first age , the other in the second age after Christ , ) n n D. Humf. In ●esuct 〈…〉 Part. 2. pag 530. It may not be denyed but that Irenaeus , Clemens , and others ( called Apostolicall ) haue in their writings the opinion of Merit of workes .

And thus farre ( M. Doctour ) of some chiefe points of the present Roman Religion , taught by the Fathers : of whom some liued in the fourth age , and so within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares ; though most of them liued in the first , second , & third age of Christ ; from whence we necessarily euict , that no change of the Faith of Rome , in the said poynts , was made within the compasse of the sayd 120. yeares : which time was aboue set downe betweene the confessed period of the Churches Purity , and the acknowledged generally 〈…〉 ceiued doctrine of the now Church of Rome : And here but that I am willing to auoid all prolixity , I do assure you , I could auerre , & iustify the like , touching all other Catholicke doctrines , taught by the Fathers of the former ages and accordingly beleeued at this day by the Church of Rome .

Yet before I end this point I will adioyne to the former proofs , this ensuing consideration , touching the fore said ●60 . yeares . It is this : if we consider either the plurallity of our Catholiche Articles ; or the incompatibility , which diuers of them beare , partly to the outward sense , & partly to mans naturall propension ; or the diuersity of Countries , & Nations in Christendome , most remote one from another ; all which cur said Catholicke Religion is acknowledged wholy to possesse , at the later end of the sixt Age , or Century ; I say if we consider all these different Circumstances , the time of the said ●60 yeares ( within which most Protestants do teach this supposed change did happen ) is infinitely too litle , and wholy disproportionable ; as that within the compasse thereof so great 〈◊〉 change , and alteration should be wrought ; especially in such an admirable manner , that whereas in the beginning of the said 160. yeares , it is auerred by the Protestants , that not any one point of our Catholicke Religion was then taught ; yet at the end of the said 160. yeares , it should so ouerflow all Christendome with such a violent streame , as that no sparke of Protestancy , ( supposing afore it were professed ) or any other Religion did remaine in any one Country , or other ; but that all was wholy extinct , and ( as I may say ) annihilated . Such an imaginary change , and alteration ( I say ) as this , is more then stupendious , and wonderfull ; and such , as since the creation of the world neuer afore hapned .

But ( M. Doctour ) giue me leaue by the way , to aske of you the second time ( for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein ) how longe do you thinke , that the Church of Rome , did continue in her Verginall state , and Purity , without any stayne in her Faith .

D. WHITAKERS .

I thinke , o o So sayth D. Whit. 〈…〉 de Antichristo cont. Sāderū pag. 35. that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ , the Church was pure , florishing ; and inuiolably taught , and defended the Fayth , deliuered by the Apostles . During all which ages the Church of Christ ( in respect of truth in Faith , and Religion , was ( as I may say ) in the full assent of the wheele . And although ( to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens ; yet I am fully perswaded , that for the space of the first six hundred yeares , no annomalous exorbitancies of errours , or superstition , did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour , indeed part of what you here say , are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders , and you deale more liberally herein , then diuers of your Breehren , by affording a hundred , and fifty yeares more to the true Church , then most of them will allow . Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome , for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ , do withall implicitly , and inferentially grant ; that no change of Faith was made in that Church , within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares ; seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares , as being part of them .

But to proceed further ; you are here ( M. Doctour ) to call to minde , what your selfe at other times ( & no doubt ) at vnawares haue writen . I do finde ( to instance only in some two , or three points ) that you affirme , that Victor p p D. whit . cont. Duraeu l. 7. p. 48. who liued anno 160. after Christ ) was the first , that exercised iurisdicton vpon forraine Churches . That not Cyprian q q D. Whit. cont. Camp. Rat. 5. only ( who liued anno . 240. ) to vse your owne words , but almost all the most holy Fathers , of that time , were in errour , touching the Doctrine of good works ; as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne , & to satisfy Gods iustice . Finally that r r D. Whit. cont. Bellar. pag. 37. Leo ( who was Pope anno . 440. to speake in your owne dialect , was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome . Are not all these your assertions , M. Doctour .

D. WHITTAKERS .

I cannot but acknowledge them for mine ; since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes ; & loath I am to be so vnnaturall , as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne .

CARD . BELLARM.

Marke well then , M. Doctour , my deduction . If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares ( for your owne confession aboue expressed is , that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse ) And if ( as your owne penne hath left it written ) the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first : The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian , & generally by other Fathers of that age ; and to be short , if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist , you meaning of our present Roman Religion ( all which said Fathers , to wit , Cyprian , Victor , Leo , and the rest , did liue diuers ages before the sixt age , or Century , to what time you extend the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome ) doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses ( if al this be true , as you affirme it is , ) that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy , the doctrine of merit of workes , and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist , as you tearme the Pope , were no innouations ; but the same pure doctrines , which the Apostles first planted in the Church of Rome ? Se how your felfe ( through your owne inaduertency ) hath fortified the truth of that doctrine , which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow . And thus farre to show , that their neuer was made any chang of Fayth in the Church of Rome , prooued from the distribution & diuision of those two different times , which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments , do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth , & of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth .

D. WHITTAKERS .

My L. Cardinall . Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestants , who teach , that in the second , third , & fourth age after Christ ; such & such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning ; It seemeth in my iudgment , that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause . Since such testimonies ( if so you will stand to them ) do shew a beginning ( though most ancient ) of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths , and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome . For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants , granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times ; you are also ( by force of reason ) to admit their like authorities in saying ; that at such tymes ( and not before ) those Articles were first taught ; for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one , & the same sentence , or testimony , why should the one part thereof be vrged for true , and the other reiected as false ?

MICHAEAS .

M. Doctour . Here with my L. Cardinall , and your owne good licence . I am to make bould to put in a word or two . This your reply ( M. Doctour ) by way of inference , may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law ; and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof , though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you . Grant then , that some miscreants , or Heathen Writers ( as Enemies to the Law of Moyses ) affirme , that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras , for example ; This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient ( at least ) as Esdras ; but it cannot be alleadged to prooue , that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only , and not before in the dayes of Moyses .

Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature , produced from our Aduersaries writinges , we are to distinguish , and seuer that , which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs , from that , which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage . What he granteth for vs , & against himselfe , so farre we are to embrace his authority ; seing it may be presumed that , ordinarliy , no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe , & his Religion , but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto , and therefore one s s So faith Tertullian . l. de Anima . c. 3. of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church ( if I do remember his words ) in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons . But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause , and against vs ; their we are not to stand to his own , authority ; since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe , and it well may be presumed , that such his sentence proceedeth out of his owne partiality .

Now this disparity ( M. Doctour ) you may well apply ( in my conceipt ) to the afore alleadged consessions and testimonies of your owne Protestants : But if I haue not here answeared directly , I submit my selfe to both your censures , and will leaue it to my L. Cardinall to giue fuller satisfaction and answere thereto .

CARD . BELLARM.

Learned Rabby . Your answere is most sufficient and warrantable ; and indeed a solid iudgment would easily dispell this smoake of wit ; and if you had not preuented me , I should but haue giuen the same answere , though perhaps not haue instanced it in your example of the Iewish Law . But enough of this argument , by which we are instructed , that the present Fayth of Rome was neuer changed since the Apostles daies ; for it is S. Augustines rule t t S. Augnstine , Contrae Donatist . c. 24. That , that Fayth , which hath bin beleiued by the whole visible Church of God , and whereof no first beginning can be knowne since the Apostles , is presumed to haue bin first taught by Christ , and his Apostles .

But , M. Doctour , if it please you , we will insist in another Medium ; from whence we will deduce our former affertion ; to wit , that during the first six huudred yeares after Christ ( and indeed during all the tyme since the Apostles ) the Church of Rome neuer made any change , or alteration in any one materiall poynt at all . And therefore I do here aske your iudgment , whether there must be ( at all tymes ) in Christs Church Pastours , and Doctours , which must teach the People , and be ready to withstand all innouations , and false doctrines at theire first appearance ?

D. WHITTAKERS .

Yes we all do teach , that there must euer be , and without interruption true Pastours in the church , who shall be ready to impugne all emergent , and late arrising Errours & Heresyes : So true it is , that the church is the s●and , from whence we strike an Hereticke . And this we prooue from the prediction of the Apostle , who foretelleth vs that , u u Ephes. 4. Pastours & Doctours , are to be in the Church , to the consummation of Saynts , till we all meete in the vnity of Fayth ; that is , as our owne Doctour Fulke x x Against the Remish Testāment in Ephes. 4. interpreteth : for euer . Which Doctours ( as our sayde D. Fulke further auerreth ) y y In his answeare to a Counterfeite Catholicke . pag. 11. shall alwayes resist all false Opinions , with open reprehension .

Which poynt is so true and euident , as that I haue already taught in my bookes , that the preaching of the worde of God ( within which is necessarely included the impugning of all false doctrines , first their arrising ) is among the z z D. Whit. Speaking of the preaching of the Word &c. stileth them : Essentiales notae Ecclesiae Cont. Duraeum . l. 3. p. 260. Essetiall Notes of the Church ; As also that the a a D. Whit. Saith : si adest Ecclesiam constituit , tollitsiauferatur Cont. Duraeum l. 3. p. 249. preaching of the Word doth constitute a Church ; the want of it , doth subuerte it . From whence it necessarely followeth , that these Doctours and Preachers are not to be silent , at the rising of any false Opinion ; but are obliged with all sedulity , and diligence what soeuer , openly to resist , and beate downe all innouations , & new arrising doctrines in Fayth , and Religion . And these Doctours , & Pastours thus defending the Church of Christ ( by impugning of false doctrines ) are those Watchmen and Sentinels , of whom Esay so long since prophesied , b b Esay c. 62. Vpon thy Walles , ô Hierusalem , I haue appoynted watchmen all the day , and all the night ; for euer they shall not hould their peace . And indeed to speake sincerely , the Nature of the Church requireth , no lesse : for how can it continue the true Church , if her Pas●outs do suffer false , & erroneous doctrine to inuade her children , without any controule or resistance ? And are not such negligent Pastou●s to be reputed , as Paralyticke , and dead Members of the Church ; since they performe not that office , and function , for which they were ordayned ?

CARD . BELLARM.

Your Iudgment is to be emdraced herein . But now , M. Doctour , I take your sword out of your owne hand , and do turne the poynt of it into your owne breast . For whereas their are many weighty doctrines ( as touching the Premacy of Peter , the number of the Sacraments , and their efficacy , Free-will , Merit of workes , Praying for the dead , Praying to Saincts , Worshipping of Images , Vnmaried liues of Priests , the Reall Presence , the Sacrifice of the Masse , and ( to omit diuers others ) the adoration of Christin the Sacrament , which are beleiued by the present Church of Rome ; and which ( as you Protestants do teach ) were introduced into the Church , as Nouelties , and Innouations , since the Faith of Christ was first planted in the Church of Rome , by the Apostles :

Now here , M. Doctour , I prouoke you , and all the Protestants liuing , according to your owne former doctrine of Pastours , euer resisting new and false doctrines , to name any one Pastour , Doctour , or Father of the Church , who euer resisted any of the former Catholicke doctrines , as new doctrines ; or did once charge the Church of Rome with chang , and innouation in any one poynt , from their former receaued Fayth by the Apostles . Reade ouer all the ancient Fathers , and Doctours of the Primatiue Church , and later times : Peruse the first approoued Generall Councells : Go ouer all the ancient Catalogues of Condemned Heresies ; and euen study all Ecclesiasticall Historyes of those former times ; and finde in all these but only any one of the former Catholicke , and now Romane doctrines , or any other poynt controuerted at this day betweene you and vs , to be condemned for a Nouelty , and as dissenting from the generall receaued Fayth of those tymes , and I promise you , I will cast off my Cardinalls Hat , and turne Protestant .

Can any reasonable Man then thinke , that , whereas you teach , the Papists Religion came in by degrees , and at seuerall tymes , that all the Pastours , and Fathers of those seuerall tymes were a sleepe , when the sayd doctrines were first braoched ; or that they obseruing their entrance , yet not any of them would vouchsafe to make resistance , or at least some mention , of any such innouation in doctrine ? doth not this mainly crosse the fore-alleadged Prophesy of the Apostle ? Or can this stand with any possibility ; especially if we consider the nature of our former Catholicke doctrines , auerred by you to be introduced , as Nouelisms ? since they are , as aboue is intimated , many in number ; diuers of them of the greatest consequence , that may be ; as the vertue of the Sacraments , the Manner of our Iustification , to wit , whether by workes , or by Fayth only ; others of them most repugnant to mans sence , and common reason , as the Reall Presence : Some aduerse to Mans naturall Propension , as the doctrine of Virginity , Pouerty , and Obedience ; most of them consisting not only in an internall beleife , but euen in an externall action and operation ; And therfore the first Origen and entrance of them are therby become most discernable : Such are our doctrines of Praying to Saints , Praying for the deade , Pilgrimages , Single life in the Cleargy , & to omitt diuers others , all Monachisme . And lastly some , supposing theire doctrine to be false , subiect to externall Idolatry ; as the worshiping of Christ with supreame honour in the Eucharist . Therfore if any of our graue and learned Aduersaries should affirme ( for there are some curious witts , who will seeme to erre , euen out of iudgment ) that these doctrines could stealingly creepe into Gods Church , without all resistance of it Pastours , Doctours , and Fathers , I bouldly auerte , that these men not only giue the lye openly to the holy Scripture , in seuerall places witnessing the contrary , but they with all cease to be Men , by loosing wholy the naturall light of all humane discourse and Reason .

But , M. Doctour , to presse the force of this argument further . Haue you not read , that in the Primatiue Church there were the Heresies of the Valentinians , Tationists Maniches , Arians , and diuers others , all which did embroile the Church of Christ , euen before the first foure hundred yeares were expyred ?

D. WHITTAKERS .

Yea. I haue read all these ; and I do find them recorded in the writings and Catalogues of Heresies , composed by Irenaeus , Epiphanius , Augustine , and others ; who with their learned Penns openly impugned these , and diuets other Heretickes , which Hereticks for the tyme troubled the waters of the Church , more then after they could , at their pleasure calme them .

CARD . BLLARM .

Haue you not also read of the Heresies , of the Nestroians , Pelagians , Donatists , Minothelits ? ( All which had their beginnings within the compasse of the 160. yeares , aboue mentioned ) which was betweene the first foure hundred and forty yeares next after Christ , and the thousand yeares from vs ; within which compasse of yeares ( by the Protestants owne writings ) the Church of Rome did suffer this supposed , and imaginary change in Religion .

D. WHITTAKERS .

I haue also read of these latter Heresies , and do finde the first three amply recorded , and writen against , by S. c c Lib. de Haeresib . Haeris . 88. 89. et Haeres. 692. Augustine ; and the fourth ( to omit our owne d d Cent. 6. Col. 312. Centurists regestring those Heriticks ) by the sixt Councell of Constantinople ; for I haue euer obserued in my reading , that the arising Heresies in euery age , were the Markes , whereat the Canons of the Church , and Counceles , and the learned writers of the ancient Orthodoxall Fathers , did shoote .

CDRD . BELLARM.

To decend lower . Haue you not also seene the records of many Heresies rysing in euery seuerall age , after the first six hundred yeares . And ( to leape ouer diuers ages ) the-Herisies of Berengarius , Waldo , Wicleffe &c , if so you will acknowledge them for Heresies ?

D. WHITTAKERS .

All this I must , and do confesse ; for I finde the Heresies of euery seuerall age to be registred ( out of the Fathers writings of euery such age ) by our owne Centurists , in the fift Chapter of euery seuerall Century , by Osiander in his Centuries , and by Pantaleon the Protestant in his Chronology . And for the doctrines of Berengarius , Waldo , Wicleffe , &c. I acknowledge them not for Heresies ; Yet I must confesse , I finde them to this day extant in diuers Bookes : As of Berengarius , in the writings of Langfrancus , Guitmundus , and Algerus ; Of Waldo , I read in Illiricus , e e In his Catalogue testium veritatis . as also in Osiander ; f f In epito● . Historiae Eccles. Of Wicleffe in his owne writings ; as also in M. Fox his Monuments , and M. Stow his Annalls of England .

CAD . BELLARM.

Well then . Thus I compound these Simples ; I meane thus I infer , and collect out of your former granted Premisses . Seing it is manifest , that the Heresies rising within the first foure hundred yeares ; The Heresies within the next two hundred yeares ; the Heresies hatched in euery age during these last thousand yeares , are most largly recorded , partly in the writings of the ancient Fathers in particular , and set tracts against them , partly in the Canons of generall Councells condemning them ; partely by the obseruing diligence of Ecclesiasticall Historiographers ( whose desined labour is , to transmit , & commend ouer to after ages the true state , and face of Christs Church in former ages ; since History is the life of Memory , and Embassadour of antiquity ) and partely , by the Protestants like endeauours , who haue writen seuerall long Volumes of this very subiect . Seing , I say , all this is manifest ; and that not only the inundation , and flux , but euen the Ebb , and reflux of euery Heresie , was precisely noted by the Pilots of Gods Church , can it enter into any brayne , but to weene , that so many Articles of the present Roman Religion , being in number far more , then all aboue rehersed , in weight , and consequently greatly exceeding them , for diuersity of Countryes , and Nations far further deuulged , and spreade , then either all , or any of the former Here●ies euer were , most of these other being restrained only to one Contry , or Nation , could euer so vnespiedly infect the whole Church of Christ with their contagion , and worke a more notorious chang therin , then euer yet was wrought by al the Heretick , since Christs time put together ; and yet not one Father , or Doctour of those times , either to take notice of any of those supposed Heretickes , or knowing them , not to impugne their first assaults by preaching , or writing ; neither any one Ecclesiasticall History but to mention in their Histories any one of the sayd Articles , as Innouations in Fayth . Can this be imagined ? or can it be in the power of man ; thus to create at his pleasure a new Religion , without controule , or discouery ? If this can be dreamed , then may we with all dreame , that Impossibilities can haue a true , & reall existence ; and that the Scripture it selfe ( for want of due performance of its predictions ) is most false : Into such a depth of absurdities , M. Doctour , these your very supposals , and imaginary speculations , do precipitate , and cast all those , who giue any credit vnto them .

MICHEAS .

My L. Cardinall , and you M. Doctour , I must ingenuously confesse to you both , that the former Argumentes are much preuayling : the one drawne from the distribution of times ; ( whreby euery age since the Apostles , is by the Protestants owne acknowledgments , cleared from all change in Fayth . ) The other from the silence , both of the Fathes , and Doctours of Christs Church , in not ●●pugning the supposed introducing of the Catholicke Articles ; as also of all Ecclesiasticall Historiographers , in not so much , as intimating , or but glancing at any one ( Article as innouated ) of the Church of Rome .

And to paterne these times of Grace with the tymes of the Old Law : If any frontlesse , and bould Man ( and some such perhaps may easily , and without labour be found , since we neede not to plough for weeds , they freely growing of themselues ) should affirme , that the Moysaicall Law had suffered greate changes , and alterations , betweene the times of its being first promulgated by Moyses , and the comming of the Messias , I should hould it a most choaking , and full demonstration for the ouerthrowing the falsehoode of such an assertion ; if neither instances of any tymes ( among so many ages , passed from Moyses to Christ ) wherin such a forged Innouation should happen , could be giuen ; neither could it be showed , that any of the Prophets , or Iewish Rabbines did openly gaynsay , or contradict the said imaginarie new arising Opinions , ( who no doubt , would haue maintained the Law with sheading of their bloud , before any Nouelisme in Fayth should haue inuaded the Synagogue ; imitating herein the resolution of Sampson , who conquered his enemies by his owne death . ) Neither lastly , if not any historiographer of the Iewish tymes , did in their workes , and writings , giue the least touch therof . But pardon me ( both of you ) for this my interrupting , and I would intreat you , to proceede further in this your learned discourse .

CARD . BELLARM.

I will satisfie your request ; but before I descend to any other argument , I will annex to my former demonstration ( for I can tearme it no lesse ) drawne from the silence of Doctours in contradicting , and Historiographers , in relating any presumed innouations in the Church of Rome , these ensuing Considerations .

(1) First , we finde , that the lesse iustifiable liues , & conuersation in manners , of some few Popes , were precisely g g So Eugenius 4. is noted by the Councell of Basill ; Benedictus 3. By the Councell of Constance . Gregory the 7. By Benno . &c. regestred , and recorded to all Posterity , with intention , perhaps , to disgrace all Popes ; as if all Popes were to be represented in some one , or other lesse vertuous Pope , as all men are in Adam . Now then this being most true , can we probably thinke , that the Historians of those ages ( being euer ready , & prepared to taxe the Personall vices of the Popes themselues who as you see were forced by this meanes to passe the Red sea of shame , disgrace , and obloquy ) all of them would be wholy silent in relating the greatest change in Religion , that euer happened , if any such chang had truly & really bin effected ?

(2) Secondly , we all knowe , that the Greeke Church hath bin for many ages emulous of the Church of Rome ; and therfore if the present Church of Rome had anciently made any Diuision , or Scissure from the true Church of Christ , the Grecians no doubt ( who then stood euer vpon the hight of En●●y , the better presently to espy any arising aduantage against the church of Rome ) would haue bene most apt to recommend the memory of such a change in our church to all after ages , in their Histories . But no such records we finde in any of their writings . Yea the Grecians are so far from that , as that ( on the contrary side ) the present Church of Rome is able to specifie , and note ( out of most ancient , and approoued Authours ) the very times , when the Grecians first introduced those particuler Opinions , wherin at this day they dessint from our Roman , and catholicke church .

I will insist ( for breuity ) in some few cheife examples . First , their deniall of Obedience to the Sea of Rome , was begun by Iohn of Constantinople , and was noted , and writen against , by h h Li. 4. Ep. 34. ci 36. Gregory the Great , and Pelagius i i In his Epi. vniuersis Episcopis . . Their denial of the proceedings of the Holy Ghost , from the Father , and the Sonne , tooke it beginning ( and at it first rysing was k k As Kekermannus the Protestant witneseth in system Theolog. pag. 68. gainsaid , and contradicted ) about the yeare 764. Their deniall of prayer for the dead , was begun by Arius , and impugned by Epiphanius , (l) and m m Haers . 53. Augustine . Their bringing in of leauened bread , by the Grecians in the celeberation of the Eucharist , was first begun about the yeare 1053. as appeareth out of the , writings of Leo n n In Epist. ad Michaelem Episcop. Constantinop . 〈◊〉 . 5. the nynth , and the o o Cent. 11 c. 8. Centurists . Now ( ● ) Haeres. 75. can it be imagined that those , being few in number , could so precisely be contradicted , writen against , and left regest●ed to all posterity ; and yet this supposed change of the church of Rome : consisteth in bringing in of far more Articles in number , and of as great consequence , should neuer be noted , nor impunged by any one Doctour , or Father , nor recorded , nor obserued by any one Historiographer ; the said Doctours , Fathers , & Historiographers liuing in the very same ages , wherin this supposed alteration is sayd to haue hapned ? By the same ground might Pyth●goras well maintayne , ( as in his books he attempted to do ) that the earth being in speciall motion of 24 : houres ; our selues , because we are carryed together with this reuolution , cannot obserue , that any such motion of the earth is .

(3) Thirdy , we may call to mind , that wheras the Ceremonies in the celeberation of the Masse , were successiuely and at seuerall tymes added , and first brought in by seuerall Popes ; So we finde accordingly , that the Aduersaries p p The booke entituled : The Relicks of Rome , writen by Tho. Beacon . The Anatomy of the Masse , by Anthony de Adamo , printed . 1556. Hospinian hist Sacrament . l. 2. c. 4. 5. 6. 7. printed 1591. besides diuers others . of the present Church of Rome , as willing to discouer our innouations , though in the smalest matters , ( for Malice is glade to take hould of the least aduantage ) and but in points of indifferency , haue most diligently , and painfully recorded them in their seuerall bookes , written of this very subiect , with all due circumstances , both of the Popes introducing them and the tymes , when they were introduced .

Here now I vrge . If the Enemyes of the present Church of Rome , being thus diligent and sollicitous in noting the beginning of eich Ceremony of the Masse ( all such Ceremonies being meerely accidentall to the Masse , and without which the Masse may as truly and effectually be celebrated , as with them ) If they ( I say ) could haue discouered any innouation in the maine Doctrine it selfe of the Masse ( as in the Doctrine of the Reall Presence , the Sacrifice of Christs body there offered vp , our Adoration of the Sacrament , the Priests enioyned chastity for such his celebration ) would they haue bin silent therin ? or rather would they not haue loaded their books with the relation of all such innouations ; they consisting not in smale ceremonies , but in most sublime , and high dogmaticall points of Christian Religion ? If otherwise ; then belike our Aduersaries would haue vs to thinke , that herin they resemble the Sunne , which reuealeth the Terrestriall Globe , being but of a litte quantity ; but concealeth the Celestiall , which is of a far more spatious greatnes .

But to proceed ; and to conclude the force of this argument , drawne from the impugning , and recording of innouations in doctrine : if this precise course ( by our Aduersaryes acknowledgments ) hath euer bin kept , during all precedent ages , without intermission , in all matters confessed , and out of controuersy betweene vs , and the Protestants ; shall we dreame , that it was so wholy neglected , and forgotten , touching the supposed innouation of our Catholicke Doctrines ; as that such our cheife doctrines , though , first really brought in , in those former tymes , were neither at there first beginning impugned by any Doctours , or Fathers of those ages ; nor recorded , or mentioned by any one Ecclesiasticall Historiographer ( among so many ) of the same , or later tymes ?

But now to vndertake , according to your desire , ( Micheas ) an other argument . You Protestants , M. Doctour , do affirme , that this our present Roman Religion is Antichristian ( for so commonly most of you in your charitable language do stile it ) and that the Pope is the true Antichrist , deciphered by the Apostle , for his first introducing and defending of the sayd Religion ; and vpon this ground you teach , that Papistry first came in , when Antichrist first came in .

D. WHITAKERS .

We do so teach indeed . For seing our mayne assertion is , that your Religion is Antichristian , we cannot ( euen by the nature of Relatiues ) seuer , and deuide ( so indissoluble companions they are ) the one from the other ; I meane Papistrie from Antichrist ; he being the Man , who first did disseminate it ; and now the heade , who cheifly , principally , and with all wicked molitions , and machinations whatsoeuer , maintayns it .

CARD . BELLARM.

You are , M. Doctour , it seemes , full gorged against the Pope , as presumed by you to be Antichrist . But let that for the tyme passe . Do all you Protestants , M. Doctour , agree together , touching the tyme of Antichrists first comming , and consequently , touching the supposed change in Fayth , wrought by Antichrist his comming .

D. WHITAKERS .

No. For I hould with our reuerent Man q q Beza Confess . general . ●7 . Sect. 12. Beza , who teacheth , that Leo ( who was Pope anno Domi. 440. ) did clearely breath forth the arrogancy of the Antichristian Sea : And therfore my constant Tenet is , that r r So saith D. Whit. in his booke con● . Bellarm. pag. 37. Leo was a greate Architect of the Antichristian kingdome : But some few other Protestants hould seuerall wayes herof .

CARD . BELLARM.

Some few , M. Doctour , not so ; but very many of them maintaine different , and contrary Opinions touching the tyme of Antichrist his first comming . And first s s So is Melanct●on alleadged by M. Haruey in Theolog. discourse pag. 102. Melancthon , & t t In his Libri psalm . quinque psal. 22. fol. 146. 147. Bucer free the Pope from being Antichrist ; and do teach that the Turke is ( as Bucer speaketh ) ipsissimus Antichristus ; with whom in iudgment herin conspireth M. u u Act. Mon. of An. 1576 pag. 539. Fox .

Iunius x x vpon the Reuelations , in C. 20. ( that remarkable Protestant ) teacheth , that Hildebrand ( who was Pope anno . 1074. ) was the first Antichrist , with whom D. y y In his Treatise concerning Antichrist . pag 110. Downham seemeth to agree in these words : Gregory the seauenth , alias Hildeb and , was the first of the Popes , who was openly acknowledged to be Antichrist . Bullinger affirmeth he came in anno . 763. he therfore tearming that yeare : the y y vpon the Apocalyps serm. 16. pag 198. and in his preface to the Apocalyps . fa ▪ all yeare . D. z z In his answere to a Couterf●yte Catholicke . p. 36. Fulke and D. a a In his Synops. p. 160. Willi● place his comming in Anno , 607. And make Boniface the third to be the first Antichrist ; with whome in iudgment herein your selfe , M. Doctour , forgetting , as it should seeme ; what elsewhere you haue taught touching Leo , conspire in these wordes : Gregory b b D. Whitakers de Ecclesia co●ra Bella●m . controuers . 2. quaest. 4. p. 141. Thus writeth : D cunus Gregorium Magnum fuisse v 〈…〉 mum verum et p●um ill us Ecclesiae Eps●op●● &c. q 〈…〉 m secuti sunt , fuerunt veri Antichrist &c. Et quia certum aliquod tempus a nobis quaer●ni et pestulant , hoc tempus illis design●mus . the Great was the last true , and holy Bishop of that Church &c. And therfore because our Aduersaries demand of vs the tyme , when Antichrist first came in , we designe , and set downe to them , the very time of his comming , But M. Napper c c vpon the Reuela●●os , p. 66. ascendeth higher , affirming Antichrist to haue first comme in Anno Domini . 313. He teathing that Siluester the Pope , was the first Antichrist . Yet the Reformed Churches of Transiluania d d So saith M. Hookerin his Ecclesiasticall po●cy . giue a greater antiquity of Antichrists first comming , placing it in the yeare . 200.

But Sebastianus Francus ( no obscure Protestant ) out-strippeth all his former Brethren ; for he ascribes Antichrists comming to the times immediatly following the Apostles . thus writing , for e e In Epist. de abrogadis in vniuersum omnibus siatu t is Ecclesiast. certaine through the worke of Antichrist , the externall Church , together with the Faith , and Sacraments , vanished away presently after the Apostles departure . See how this high swelling riuer of Heresie ( for I do hold this sentence , that the Pope is Antichrist , to be no lesse then Hereticall ) is fed with the smale streames of eich mans particuler and different opinions , which opinions though mainly dissenting in themselues ; yet most of them proceede from one generall source of the Protestants malice , and hatred against the Pope , and Church of Rome ; and therefore their iudgments herein must be more imperfect , and deceaueable : for as the eye seeth not a●ight , except the species , and formes of the thing seene , do fall vpon the eye , ad angulos rectos ; ( as the Optists do speake . ) So here mans vnderstanding cannot apprehend any thing truly , as long as is wanteth it owne naturall rectitude , & straightnes , which is euer free from all obliquity of preiudice , and Passion .

MICHEAS .

The variety of doctrin touching the comming of Antichrist , is most wounderfull , and far greater by many degrees then the diuersity of opinions amonge vs Iewes , who was husband to Esther , or at what tyme Iudith did liue . And indeede I euer promised to my selfe before this time , to haue found a far greater concordance of iudgment in this point , amonge the Protestants , then now I do finde .

D. WHITTAKERS

I am * * D. Whit. cont. Camp. Rat. 5. saith : An mihi erit dicta singula , quae quisquam protulit aliquando praestare aut defendere ? not to defend eich Mans different opinions herein ; and I grant , if any of these be true , all the rest are false : But it is sufficient to prooue , that antichrist is come ; and that by his comming this great change in Faith , and Religion was first then wrought in the Church of Rome ; and as , touching the difficulty of proouing the circumstances of his first comming , it importeth little ; seing here we are to remember ( to speake by allusion ) that it is easy to prooue , that we see ; but hard to prooue , how we see .

CARD . BELLARM.

I do not looke , M. Doctour , that you should make good all the former contraric opinions ; for it is impossible to iustify , but any one of them . Neuerthelesse it is a weake kynd of proofe , to say only in grosse , that Antichrist is already come , and with his comming , this so great a presumed chang in Faith was first brought in ; where you haue no more reason to allow of the particuler tyme of his comming , by your selfe designed , then your former Brethren haue , for the fortifying of eich ones seuerall iudgment therin . Only the disparity , which I finde betweene them , and you , is this : That euery one of them do set downe one only particuler tyme of Antichrist his comming , and content themselues therwith ; wheras you , M. Doctour , imitating herin the skilfull Pilot , who constantly changeth his sayles , with the vnconstant winds , for your best aduantage , & as it most fittingly sorts to your purpose in hand , sometimes will haue his comming to be in Pope Leo , to wit , in the yeare 440. at other tymes , in Boniface the third , which is in anno 607. So you making a great Parenthesis ( as I may say ) of a hundred and fifty yeares at least , betweene your two different sentences of Antichrist his comming .

But to returne to the force of this my argument , drawne from the Protestants different , and contrary Opinions , touching the first reigne of Antichrist . Here then , I say , seeing ther are among the Protestants so many contrary , and irreconcileable sentences of Antichrist his first entrance , ( at what tyme , this supposed chang of Fayth in the Church of Rome is sayd to haue bin effected . ) And seeing , that not any one of these different iudgments haue more warrant , and authority for its supporting , then any other of them hath : Therfore by force of all reason we may conclude , that all there sentences herin are false , and that Antichrist is not yet come ; and thus out of falsehood , we may extract truth ; & so consequently we may deduce , that no chang of Fayth hath bin yet wrought in the Church of Rome , by the said Antichrist . Therfore I will conclude this argument with the more retired , dispassionate , and warie iudgments of some other of your learned Protestants , to wit , of that eminent Protestant f f In Epist. Pauli . Coloss. et Thessal p. 246. Zanchius , of Franciscus g g In his Prognosticin . finis Mundi . pag. 74. Lambertus ( no ordinary Man among you ) and of some others ; who Peremptorily affirme against all their former Brethren , that Antichrist is not yet come .

MICHEAS

For my part , I must needs confesse , that I do beleiue that Antichrist is not yet come . For , besides diuers other reasons , vrged by vs Iewes in proofe therof those words of Daniell concerniug Antichrist his continuance , ( to wit h h c. 7. tempus , tempora , & dimidium temporis ) were euer by all learned Iewish Rabbins interpreted literally , and plainly , to signify three yeares and a halfe , which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme , as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion ; seeing he hath continued preaching the sayd Doctrine , & Religion ( euen by the Protestants confessions ( as now I see ) many hundred of yeares . But good my Lord Cardinall , if there be any other reasons behinde . to impugne this sayd change , I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them ; for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety .

CARD . BELLARM.

I am willing therto . And for the further prosecution therof , I am to put you in mind , M. Doctour , partly according to my former Method , set downe in the beginning ; that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome , were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ ( as is aboue on all sides confessed ) and consequently , the most ancient Church , since * * God is more ancient , then the Deuil , & therfore truth more ancient than falshood . truth is euer more ancient , then falsehoode , and Errours . It therfore followeth , that all Hereticks whatsoeuer , who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth , do make a reuolt , and seperation from that Church of the Apostles , according to those words of S. Iohn : i i Iohn . 2. exierunt a nobis : they went out of vs ; and answerably to that other text : k k Act. 15 certaine that went forth from vs : which very words do contayne a Brande , or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy . Since the Apostle , and the Euangelist do meane hereby , that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians , then by him is chosen . So as to go out of a precedent Church , or society of Christians , is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis l l Aduers . haeres . ( quis vnquam Haereses instituit , nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae C●●boli ae Vniuer sitatis , & antiqnitatis consensione discre●●it ? ) but euen by your owne Brethren ; for we finde Osiander ( among others ) thus to write : m m Epitem . Hast . Cent. 1. l. 3. c. 1. p. 78. Nota ; Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur .

Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall , & most ancient company of Christians , as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer . Now here I demand of you , M. Doctour , to shew , from what company , or society of Christians , ( more ancient ) did we Catholicks in those former tymes ( when first , you say , this change of Faith was made ) depart ? or from what Church , afore in being , went we out ? The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin , Luther , the Waldenses , the Wicliffians , and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries ; of whom it is confessed , that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church ; and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines ( so Iudas the Apostle , who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour ) did go , and depart out of the present Roman Church , and therby became Hereticks . The like , M. Doctour , I do here expect , that you should prooue , by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories , of the present Catholicke , and Romane Church ; which if you cannot , then is the inference most strong ; that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from , or departing out of that Church , which was established by the Apostles at Rome ; and consequently , that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth , since it first being a Church .

D. WHITAKERS .

Your Church hath departed from that Fayth , which the Apostles first preached in Rome ; and I hope this departure , and going out ( without other proofs ) is sufficient enough . And here I answere with M. Newstub● ( one of our learned Brethren ) o o In his answere to certaine assertions , tending to mantayne the Churche of Rome p. 35 That when you require , who were they , that did note your going out &c. This question ( I say ) is vnvecessary &c. we haue taken you with the manner ; that is to say , with the Doctrine , diuerse from the Aposties : and therfore neither Law , nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing . Thus my Brother M. Newstubs . And my Lord , as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight , then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight ; so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine , first preached at Rome by the Apostles , and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture , before all humane reasons , and arguments , directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation .

CARD . BELLARM.

What strang Logicke is this ? and how poore a Circulation do you make . The mayne question betweene vs , is , whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth , or no , since the Apostles dayes ? To prooue , that it hath not , Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancient Church , and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth : Now you in answere hereto ( as not being able to instance the persons , by whom , or the tymes when , any such departing , or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion ) reply , that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles ; and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes : and this sophism ( you know ) is but Petitio Principij , or a beginning of the matter in question , and is nothing els but ( without answering to any of my premisses ) the denyall of my Conclusion ; which kynd of answenng , I am sure , impugneth all Logicke , and therfore all Reason ; since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined .

But to proceed further . In euery introduction of a new Religion , or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne , the Professours therof receaue a new denomination , or name , for the most part , from the first authour of the new doctryne , and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe ; like vnto a running riuer , which commonly taketh the name of that riuer , into which it falleth . Thus the Arians , the Valentinians , Marcionists Manicheans from Arius , Valentinus , Marcian , and Manicheus &c. or from the doctrine it selfe , as the Hereticks Monothelites , Agnoitae , Theopaschitae &c. though this more seldome .

This Note , or Marke , of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy , may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception , ingendred since the Apostles tymes , euen to this day : a poynt so exempt from all doubt , as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth : p p In his Treatise of the Church l. 2. c. 9. Surely it is not to be denyed , but that the naming after the names of Men , was in the time of the Primatiue Church , peculiar , and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks ; with whom agreeth M. q q In his Apology , vnderthe title of querulous , motions . Parks ; both of them borrowing it from the ancient r r Lenaeus l. 2. c. 20. Athanas . s●rm-2 . contra Arium . Ierom. Cont. Lucif . in fine . Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome , who thus saith : s s hom. 33. in Act. Apost. Prout Haeresiarchae nomen , it a Secta vocatur .

Well then , this being thus acknowledged on all sides ; If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth , then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies , and Opinions , became Heretickes , and consequently they haue taken ( according to our former grounde ) some name , either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines , or from the doctrines themselues . But you cannot , M. Doctour , shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs , except the name , Catholicks , which was euen in the Primatiue Church , the surname of all Christians , according to that ; t t Pacianus epist. ad Simphronianum . Christianus mihi nomen est , Catholicus vero cagnomen : Illud me nuncupat ; istud me ostendit , though the contrary we can shew of you , who haue the names giuen to you of Lutherans , Caluenits , Besits , &c. Therfore it clearely followeth , that the Professours of the present Roman Church haue neuer changed their Fayth , first planted by the Apostles .

D. WHITAKERS .

Now my L. Cardinall , you are foiled with your owne argument . For haue you not the name of Papists peculiarly appropriated to your selues , to distinguish you from the true professours of the ghospel ? In like sort , are not some of your religious Men called Bernardins , others Franciscans , Benedictins , Augustins &c. so taking their appellation from particuler Men ; and thus your owne argument rebutteth vpon your selfe with great disaduantage : Therfore my Lord be not so confident aforehand in the force of your alleaged reason but remember , that : u u D. Whit. contra Camp Rat. 5. Thra●y's prò'erysóù , ' ec pollóù cacòs : who is euer bould before the worke is attempted , is commonly indiscreete .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour , You so seriously here trifle , as that I euen blush in your behalfe , to obserue how you wrong yourfollowers , and Proselits with such weake transparency of reasons . For you are here to vnderstand , that the Surnames of Peculiar Hereticks ( as the Arians , Eutichians , Maniches , and of all others ) were imposed vpon the Professours of these Heresies , euen at the first beginning , and rising of the sayd Heresies , and were inuented out of necessity , to distinguish their Heresies from all other Doctrines : but now the word , Papist , M. Doctour , was coyned but lately by Luther himselfe against vs , & this not out of necessity , but of reproach : our Fayth , and Doctrine being acknowledged , aboue by your leaned Brethren , to haue bin in the world , many hundred yeares before Luthers dayes .

Agayne , the Word , Papist , is not restrained to any one Pope , or any peculiar Doctrine , taught by the present Church of Rome , but it is indifferently extended to all Popes , and all doctrines taught by the sayd Popes : so fowly , M. Doctour , are you mistaken in alleadging the name Papist against vs : and so much do you , and other Protestants wrong vs , euen for that very name ; we vndergoing herein by your Brethrens calumnies the like misfortune , which Collatinus Tarquinius suffered , who was depriued of his honours , and subiect to disgrace , and reproach by the Romans , only for the hatefull name of Tarquinius .

Touching those names of Franciscans , Bernardins , Benedictans , &c. It is so cleare , that these names are not imposed for change of Fayth , but only for institution of seueral degrees of a vertuous , and religious life , as that I will answere you in your former Brother , D. Feild x x Of the Church . l. 2. c. 9. pag. 58. his words , who thus solueth this your obiection : We must obserue , that they , who professe the Fayth of Christ , haue bin sometymes in these later ages of the Church , called after the special names of such Men , as were the Authours , beginners , and deuisers of such courses of Monastical Profession , as they made choyse to follow ; as Benedictans & such like . Thus D. Feild .

MICHEAS .

I thinke , M. Doctour , ( vnder yonr fauour ) that these your instances of names , taken from the first institutours of seueral religious Orders in the Church of Christ , do not imply any change of Fayth made by them ; and therefore the force of my L. Cardinal his argument , borrowed from new imposed appellations , is not weakned , but rather fartified by this your reply . My Reason is this : in our Iewish Law we read , that ther were some called y y Hierom. 35. Rechabits , and others , z z Numb. 6. Nazarites ; both professing a more strict course of life , then the vulgar , and common people did . In like sort Iosephus a a Antiquitat . Iudaic. l. 18. c. 2. and Philo b b De vita contemplat . report much of the austerity of the Essenes , among vs Iewes ; who in regard of such their peculiar Profession were called : Essenes ; and to whom God vouchsafed many spiritual , fauours , and consolations . Happy men : since he is most fit to walke vpon the hight of celestial contemplation ; who liueth in the vale of a voluntary humility , retyrednes , and mortification ; In whom the fyre of the spirit doth euer extinguish the fire of the flesh and sensuality ; thus the greater heare putting forth the lesse heate .

Now shal any man thinke , that these men instituted a Fayth , and Religion , different from that , of Moyses ? It is both absurd to entertayne such a thought , and withall it is a wrong , and dishonour to the Law of Moyses . And in my iudgment , both these instances of the Old Testament produced by me , and those other of the Franciscans &c. obiected by you , M. Doctour , in a true , and eauen libration of them do prooue that , which my L. Cardinal first endeauoured to prooue from the imposition of new Names . For they manifest the seueral changes , and alterations , which were made both in the old Testament , and the new , touching a more austere profession of a vertuous life , which was the subiect of those changes ; as these other new imposed names of Arians , Nestorians , Maniches , and the rest aboue specified , do necessarily euict a change first made in Doctrine , by Arius , Nestorius , Manicheus &c. But my L. Cardinall , if you wil enlarge your selfe no further vpon this poynt , I humbly intreate you to proceed to some other argument .

CARD . BELLARM.

Learned Micheas . I wil proceed to that , which at this instant shal be my last , though for weight , and force , it might wel take the first place . And it shal be taken , M. Doctour , from the first plantation of Christianity in your owne Country . which though immediatly , it concerneth but one Nation , yet potentially , it prooueth , that ther was no change of Fayth at all , made in the Church of Christ , in any former tymes , by the Professours of the present Roman Religion . But here , M. Doctour , I am to demand your iudgment , touching the times in which , and the Person , by whom the Britons of Wales were first conuerted to the Christian Fayth ?

D. WHITAKERS .

All we Protestants agree , that the Britons of Wales whre conuerted in the Apostles tyme , by Ioseph of Aramathia ; and this we prooue , not only form the authority of Sainct Bede , who did write the history therof in the yeare , 724. but also from the authority of our Principal Historiographers , for thus M. Cambden ( our learned Countryman ) writeth : c c In his Britan . pag. 40. Certum est Brit 〈…〉 in ipsa Ecclesiae infantia Christian●m Religionem imbibisse , It is Certaine , that the Britons receaued the Christian , Religion , euen in the infancy of the Church . Who thus further discourseth of this Poynt : d d In his Britania . p. 157. In hac floruit Monasterium Glastenburiēsis &c. Here florished the Monastery of Glastembury , which taketh it ancient beginning from Ioseph of Aramathia &c. for this is witnessed by the most ancient Monuments of this Monastery &c. nether is there any reason , Why we should doubt therof Thus far , M. Cambden , with whom conspire all other Chroniclers ; as Harrison e e Annexed to Holinshead his greate Chronicle , volum. 1. p. 23 in his description of Britanny , and others . Yea of vs Ministers of the ghospel f f In his booke against Heskins , Sand. p. 561 D. Fulke , g g In his pageant of Popes . D. Iewell , and M. h h In his soueraigne remedy against Sch●m● p. 24 Henoch Clapham , do ioyntly teach the same ; neither did I euer read any one authentical writer to deny it .

CARD . BELLARM.

How long , M. Doctour , do your writers confesse , that the Britons did preserue their Fayth receaued in the Apostles tymes , free from all change , or mixture of innouations .

D. WHITAKERS .

We do confesse , that they preserued it pure , and not stayned with any Errours , til Augustine his comming into England , who was sent by Pope Gregory , to plant his religion among vs English : for first thus I finde D. Iewell to auer : i i In his pageant of Popes . The Britons being conuerted by Ioseph of Aramathia , held that Fayth at Augustins comming ; as also D. Fulke saying : k k Against the Rhemish Testament . in 2. cor. 12. The Catholick Britans , with whom Christian Religion had continued in succession from the Apostles tymes , would not receaue Augustine . To these we may adioyne the like words of M. Fox : l l Act. Mon. printed , 1576. p. 463. The Britons after the receauing of the Fayth , neuer forsooke it , for any manner of false preaching , nor for torments : and finally , that acknowledgment of D. Humfrey : m m In Iesuitism . par. 2. 〈◊〉 3. p. 304. Habuerunt Britanni templa sibi , non Romanis &c. The Britons had temples , and Churches peculiar to themselues , not common with the Romans ; they not subiecting themselues to the yoake of the Romans .

CARD . BLLARM .

Well , M. Doctour , you deale with integrity , and playnes hitherto ; openly discouering , what your reading and iudgement are able to deli●er herein . And your Prayse in so doing is the greater ; since there are some men , so cautelous in their proceedings , and speaches , and of such an impenetrable closenes of disposition , as that we can neuer knowe their minde by their words ; the one , for the most part , standing neutrall to the other , or rather the Aspect of a Diametricall Opposition . But , M. Doctour , let me enquire further of you . You know , that there was an interuiew of meeting , betweene this Augustine , and the Bishops of Britanny , or Walles , for the conferring of their Religions together , at a place called in S. Bede n n Beda hist. 2. c. 2. his time : Augustineizat ; which point is further recorded by your o o In his great Chronic. of the last edition volum . l. 5. c. 21. pag. 102. Holinshead , M. Fox , p p Act. Mon. printed 1576 pag. 120. and diuers others . Now here I would intreate you sincerely to set downe , the greatest differences of Fayth , and Religon , which at that meeting were found to be betweene the Briton Bishops , and the foresayd Augustine .

D. WHITAKERS .

I will and my tongue shall truly subscribe to all that , which of this point I haue heretofore read . And first S. Bede will fully determine this point ; who relating , how Augustine answered the Briton Bishops , setteth his answere downe in th●se words : q q Beda l. 2. c. 2. Si in tribus his obtemperare mihi vultis , vt Pascha suo tempore celebretis ; vt Ministerium Baptizandi ( quo Deo renascimur ) iuxta morem Romanae & Apostolicae Ecclesiae compleatis ; vt Genti Anglorum vnà nobiscum praedicetis verbum Domini , cetera , quae agitis . ( quamuis moribus nostris contraria ) eaquanimiter cuncta toller abimus : that is , If you Briton celebrating●aster ●aster day in it due tyme ; in conferring of Baptisme , ( by the which we are reborne to God ) according to the Rites of the Roman , and Apostolicall Church , and in helping vs to preach to the English ; all other matters , which you do ( though contrary to our manners , ) we wil tollerate , and suffer . Thus far S. Bede . But to what end , my Lord Cardinall , do you make so many demaunds touching this matter of the Britons ? Since I cannot see your proiect herein ; they neither preiudicing vs Protestants , nor aduantaginge you Papists .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour , you shal quickly discouer the drift of these my seuerall demaunds , which resemble a Torrent , stopped for a time , that it may in the end ouerflow with greater violence . Now to your former acknowledgments we may adde ( touching only the three former differences ) the like Confessions of r r Volum. 1. p. 103 Holinshead , s s In his Catalogue of the Bishops p. 6. M. Goodwin , and the Protestant Authour of the History of great Briton whose words are these : t t Printed anno . 1606. l. 3. c. 13. p. 133. The Briton Bishops conformed themselues to the Doctrine , & Ceremonies of the Church of Rome , without difference in any thing specially remembred , saue only in the celebration of the feast of Easter &c.

Now , M. Doctour , in this last place , I would haue you cal to minde , what is aboue related , touching the Fayth , planted by Augustine , of D. Humfrey , the Centurists , and Osiander . D. Humfrey his words herin ( though the iteration of them may perhaps seeme vnpleasing ) I wil once more repeate , for greater weight of our ensuing argument ; who speaking of Augustins Religion planted in England , thus writeth : u u In Iesuitisin . part . 2. Rat. 5. pag. 5. & 627. In Ecclesiam verè quid inuexerunt Gregorius & Augustinus ? onus Caeremoniarum &c. intulerunt Pallium Episcopale ad sola Missarum solemnia , Purgatorium , &c , Oblationem salutaris hostiae , & Preces pro demortuis &c. reliquias &c. Transubstantiationem &c. nouas templorum consecrationes &c. Ex quibus omnibus , quid aliud quaesitum est , quam vt Indulgentiae , Monacha●us , Paptus , reliquumque Pontificiae superstitionis Chaös extruatur ? Haec autem Augustinus Magnus Monachus ( a Gregorio Monacho edoctus ) importauit Anglis : Thus D. Humfrey . Are not these his owne words ? And are not the x x In the Alphabetical table of the sixt Century after the first Edition therof , at the word : Gregory . Centurists and y y Epitom . histor. Eccles. cent. 6. pag. 289. Osiander ( aboue cited ) most cleare , that Augustine at his comming into England , preached the present Roman Religion , in all chiefe points to you English ?

D. WHITAKERS .

It cannot be denyed , but that all the foresayd Protestants ( as also all Histories discoursing of this poynt ) do confidently auerre the same . Which said Gregory , as he brought in some true , & wholsome poynts of Christian Fayth ; so did he mingle them , with diuers poisonous superstitions , worthily to be avoyded by all good Christians : z z D. ●hit . Cont. Camp. Rat. 10. Phármaca pollà mén 〈…〉 esthlà memieména , pollà de lyerà . for it is most cleare , that Augustine in this his plantation of Religion in England , did greatly labour a a D. Whit. vbi supra . ‛ ar' ' rostia quadam dianoias , with an infirmity or sicknes of iudgment .

CARD . BELLARM.

Wel , M. Doctour , touching the venom , you spit out against Augustines Religion , I holde it , but as fome , & froth of a distempered stomack , and therfore I passe it ouer : but to returne to my argument . Here now I wil be seruiceable vnto you , and by the mixture of all these former Ingredients , I will present you with a wholsome Electuary , compounded of them all : for indeede I holde the demonstration issuing out of the premisses , so vnauoydable , as that it precludeth , and forestalleth the aduersary of all shew of Reply .

First then it is graunted , that the Britons were conuerted to the Fayth of Christ by Ioseph of Aramathia ; who as he had the honour to interre our Sauiour , & lay his sacred Body in a new monument , cut out of a rock ( as the b b Math. 27. Euangelist speaketh ) so enioyed he the happines to bury al former infidelity in the Britons , and to cloath , or infolde their ( afore stony , and rocky ) harts , within the cleane Syndon of a pure Fayth in our Sauiour :

But to proceed . Secondly , it is confessed , that the Britons retayned this their first Fayth , spotles , and without change , till Augustins comming into England : Thirdly , it is prooued , that at the tyme of the conference betweene Augustine , and the Briton Byshops , the greatest difference in matters of Fayth , and Religion , ( wherupon they stoode ) were but two poynts , cheifly consisting in Ceremony ; to wit , the keeping of Easter day in it vsuall tyme , and the forme of Baptizing , according to the rites of Rome . Fourthly , and lastly , it is graunted , that Augustine here planted , and preached to the English all Articles , and points of the present Romane Religion , or Papistry , as you Protestants do vsually style it .

Now , M. Doctour , what other resultancy can here be made out of all these Premisses , but this ? To wit , that the Church of Rome in Augustins time teaching Papistry , was wholy agreeable ( the two points , or Ceremonies of keeping Easter day , and of baptising with the Rites of Rome , only excepted ) with the Fayth , and Religion , which was planted among the Britons by Ioseph of Aramathia in the Apostles daies : and consequently , that the Church of Rome teaching Papistry , did neuer suffer any change in her Faith , and Religion since the Apostles departed . This is the Argument , wherin ( I graunt ) I partly insult ; it is inauoidable ; it is a demonstration : And pryse it Micheas as a strong Aries , beating downe , & bearing before it , whatsoeuer may seeme to withstand the Truth in this pointe controuerted .

MICHEAS .

In deed , my Lord , it seemes to me very forcible , and you did well to reserue it to the last place ; that so ( like sweet-meats ) it might pleasingly close vp the tast of our iudgments . Neuerthelesse the consideration of it doth not diminish with me the force of your other former arguments ; for though Better be better , yet followeth it not , but that Good is good .

D. WHITAKERS .

My Lord , This your argument is tyed togeather with many links , and breake but one of them , all the rest are loosed . And indeed it is but an argument drawne from Authority , Negatiuely , and by Omission only ; which you know is little valued in the schooles . For the hinge ( as I may say ) or weight of it only consisteth in this . That at the meeting of Augustine , and the Briton Bishops , dissented from Augustine . But of other greater points we read no mention made among them ; and therfore for any thing we know , the Britons might aswell disagree from Augustine in all other Articles passed ouer in silence , as agree with them .

CARD . BELLARM.

How improbable , how absurd , how impossible is this , you say ? And take heede , M. Doctour , that this your answere be not controuled by your owne secret conscience ; and beware of much practising the like hereafter ; since the Character of any bad course , impressed by a long habit , at length becoms indelible . But to the point : Consider all the Circumstances of the busines at that tyme handled , and then deliuer an impartiall , and euen censure . The meeting was occasioned only for comparing their Faiths together ; Augustine imitating therin S. Paul , c c Gal. 2. vt conferat cum illis Euangelium , quod praedicat in Gentibus . The Britons ( euen by the acknowledgment of M. d d Act. Mon. printed . 1576. pag. 120. Fox ) did beare themselues at the first against Augustine , with great pertinacy , & stubbernes ; and therfore the lesse probable it is , that they would yeeld to him in any point of moment , more then was agreeable to their owne Religion . The differences betweene them after much disquisition , and search , are recorded to be only about the two former points of Ceremonies , and seeming indifferency . The Recorder of this great Passage , was principally S. Bede ; who ( ex professo ) did write most elaborately , and punctually , the Ecclesiasticall History of England in those times ; and therein was obliged ( by his designed method ) not to register the smallest occurrents , and wholy to omit the greatest .

Now then can we dreame , that the Doctrines touching the Reall Presence ; the Sacrifice of the Masse , Praying to Saints . Purgatory , Free-will , Iustification by works , Images , Monachisme , the Primacy of Peter , and some others ( all being Articles of greatest importance , and particulerly taught by S. Augustine ) were , either not mentioned , and not once spoken of in that serious discourse betweene Augustine , and the Briton Bishops ; or they being then painfully discussed , and ventilated , the Britons being so refractory , and stiffe with Augustine in the smalest points , would quietly , and without resistance , embrace all these high doctrines , as Innouations , and repugnant to their Fayth , first planted by Ioseph of Aramathia ? Or if the Bri●on Bishops ve●lded not their assent to these supreame poynts of Fayth of Rome , would not such their reluctation , and dislike haue bin recorded by S. Bede , and other writers of those tymes , who would not omit to relate the Britons stifnes , and coldnes in the least matters of this History ? It is great weakenes , but to suppose such impossibilities ; It is madnes , and lunacy to beleeue them .

Therfore my absolute , and last resolution here is , that the Fayth of Augustine , was then one , and the same in all Articles with the Fayth of the Britons , first preached to them in the Apostles dayes , ( the Ceremonies of Baptising , and of keeping Easter day cheifly excepted ) which lesser errours , S. Augustine ( obseruing the Britons stiffnes ) thought perhaps , would sooner be recalled by a patient sufferance of them for a tyme , then by any violent meanes vsed at the first to the contrary ; like to some diseases , which are best cured , by continuing the diseases .

Now for the fuller close of this poynt , to wit , touching the agreement of the Doctrine taught by S. Augustine , with the then Doctrine , and Fayth of the Briton Bishops , I will adde the acknowledgement of the Briton Bishops themselues , of whom S. Bede thus relateth : e e Lib. 2. c. 2. Britones quidem confitentur intellexisse se veram esse viam iustitiae , quam praedicaret Augustinus : so vnanimous ( we see ) were the Britons & Augustine in their Fayth , and Religion : and therfore it was not strange , that at the last ( as D. Fulke affirmeth ) f f In his Confutation of Purgatory , p. 335. Augustine did obtayne the ayd of the British Bishops , to the conuersion of the Saxons .

And thus far of this argument , the which shall serue as the Catastrophe , or end of this my Scene ; wherin I haue vndertaken ( though more , then by rigour of method I was tyed vnto ) to prooue by positiue arguments , and reasons , that the Church of Rome hath neuer suffered any change in her Fayth , and religion , since the Apostles dayes ; my cheife allectiue ( Miche●s ) inducing me therto , being only your satisfaction in this your imposed Subiect , or Question .

MICHEAS .

My L. Cardinall . I render you humble thankes , and I must say that these your former arguments produced , seeme to me very moouing ; and except M. Doctour be able to repell them with other more forcible arguments , they will ( I confesse ) impell my Iudgment to giue it free , and full consent , to the beleeuing of that point , for the proofe wherof , they are by your Lordship alleadged .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour . Seeing there is no truth so illustrious , and radiant , but that in an vndiscerning eye , it may seeme to be clowded for the time , with the interposition of some weake Obiections ; Therfore I would now wish you , to proceede to your proofes , and to alleadg such arguments against our former Conclusion , as your owne reading hath at any time best ministred vnto you .

Do not rest only in generally saying , that the Church of Rome hath altered her Religion ; except withal you insist in the particular instances , when that Church imbraced such , & such a Doctrine , as an innouation , and repugnant to the Faith planted by the Apostles . And remember , that the Truth , or falshood of generalities in speech do receiue their best illustration from a curious , and precise dissecting of the Particulars .

This office now is particularly incumbent vpon you ; for seeing you maintaine , that the Church of Rome hath changed its Faith since the Apostles times , you are obliged to insist in the particular Doctrines , supposed to be changed , in the Person , and Popes , by whom this change was made , in the time , in which these alterations are presumed to haue happened , and the like ; as aboue I intimated in the beginning of this discourse . Therfore , M. Doctour , begin , and I will reply to your Obiections , as far as my owne reading , and iudgment will afford .

D. WHITAKERS

My Lord I willingly take holde of your prescribed Method ; and will giue many instances of seuerall Doctrines , euen of the greatest moment , now in question betweene you , and vs , when they were first introduced into the Church , and by what Popes they were so brought in ; and I hope that a due , and mature ponderation of them will be able to shake , and disioynt ( or rather to lay leuell to the ground ) the whole Systima , and frame of your former large discourse .

Well then , the first Instance of this vndoubted Change , which I will alleadge , shal be Pope g g So saith D. hi● . cont. Duraeum , lib. 7. pag. 480. Siritius , who was the first , that annexed Perpetuall Chastity to the ministers of the word . And I hope , that it is to be accompted no smale change , to barre our Clergy of their Christian liberty in so great a matter ; since we are taught by him , who in these later times first taught vs Protestantcy that , nothing h h In Prouerb . 13. where he so saith in dutcz , as is here ●nglished . is more swee●e or louing vpon earth , then is the loue of a Woman if a Man can obtaine it . And i i Luther Tom. 7. in Epist. ad Wophangū . fol. 505. that he who resolueth to be without a Woman let him lay aside from him the name of a man , making himselfe a plaine Angell , or Spirit .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour , before I come to apply particuler answeres to your particuler instances following ; I must tell you , that the force of all such your instances is already ouerthrowne , by what is deliuered aboue . For if it be already demonstrated , that no change of faith hath bin made at any time in the church of Rome , partly by freeing euery age of the Church , since Christs time from any change in Religion , euen by the acknowledgment of the learned Protestants ; partly by manifesting , that neither the Church of Christ , neuer made any resistance against the first supposed change ( as both in duety it was bound to do , and as the holy Scripture prophesieth , that it should euer do , at the innouation of any new Doctrine ) neither doth any Historiographer record in his History any such change ; partly by discouering the vncertaine iudgments of your owne Brethren touching Antichrists first comming ; at what time this so much pressed Innouation of Faith is taught to haue happened ; and finally , partly by diuers other reasons aboue discussed , and disputed : I say , if all this hath bin aboue prooued ( as I hope it is ) then doth it follow , that all pretended Instances , and Examples ( vpon which you may hereafter seeme in an ignorant eye to insist ) are impertinent , friuolous , and wholy by you mistaken . Neuertheles , for the fuller content of this our Learned IeW , I will with peculiar answeres refell euery one of your peculiar Examples . And first , to your first . Where it seemes , that the Doctrine of vowed Chastity in Cleargy Men toucheth you neare , in regard of your Ministers coniugall liues , seeing you begin there with . And here by the way , I must make bold to say , that you Protestants ( God be thanked ) cannot iustly be charged with being reputed superstitious Votaries , and wilfull Eunuchs , ( as Catholick Priests are styled by some of your Brethren to be ) so carefull you are of your owne reputation herein : but the lesse meruayle , since the very Body of Protestancy is Sensuality ( pardon me , M. Doctour , for speaking that , which Experience , and your owne Theorems depose to be true ) as the soule of it is an assumed height of mind , and controule of all Authority .

But now to your example , wherof you produce no authority of any ancient Father affirming so much , but only your owne naked assertion . This of Siricius is wrongfully alleadged for seuerall respects : first , in that we finde S. Hierome ( who liued before Siricius ) to write of this point in this sort : k k In Apolo . ad Pammach . cap. 3. If marryed men like not of this ( meaning of the single life of the Cleargy ) let them not be angry with me , but with the holy Scriptures , with all Bishops , Priests , and Deacons ; who know , they cannot offer vp Sacrifice , if they vse the act of Marryage . Thus ( we see ) S. Hierome reduceth this point of Priests not marrying , euen to the Scripture it selfe . Which Father in further proofe thereof , appealeth to the generall Practise of the whole Church therein saying : l l contra Vigilant . cap. 1. quid faciunt Orientis Ecclesiae , quid Egypti , & Sedis Apostolicae ? quae aut Virgines Clericos accipiunt , aut cominentes , aut si vxores habuerint , mariti esse desinunt . With Hierome ( to omit other Fathers ) Epiphanius ( ancient to Hierome ) conspireth , who reprehending the abuse of some Deacons , and Sub-deacons , for accompanying their Wiues , whom they had espoused before their Orders taken , concludeth thus : m m Haeres . 59 At hoc non est iuxta Canonem ; This is against the Canion ; So he implying , that there , was a former Canon against the marriage of Priests . To conclude Origen , who liued before these o●her Fathers , thus writeth hereof : n n In Num. homil. 23. Mihi videtur , quòd illius est solius offerre Sacrificium indesinens , qui indesinenti , & perpetuae se deuouerit castitati : I am of iudgment , that , that man only , is to offer vp perpetuall Sacrifice , who hath deuoted himselfe to perpetuall Chastity .

This point is so euident , that your owne o o In E●am . Concil. Trident . p. 50. & 62. Kempnitius doth reprehend the foresayd Hierome , Epiphanius , Origen , as also Ambrose , for their impugning the supposed lawfulnes of Priests marriage . We may adde ( for close hereof ) the Councell of Carthage . wherat S. Augustine was present : the Councell in expresse words sayth thus : p p Concil. Carth. 2. Can. 2. Omnibus placet vt , Episcopi , Presbyteri , & Diaconi &c. ab vxoribus se abstineant : It is allowed by all , that Bishops , Priests , and Deacons do abstaine from hauing wiues . And then immediatly after the Councell giueth the reason therof in these words : Vt quod Apostoli docuerunt , & ipsa seruauit antiquitas , nos custodiamus : to the end that we may keepe , what the Apostles haue ordayned herein , and antiquity obserued . Now I referre to any Mans indifferent iudgment , with what colour , M. Doctour , you can auerre , that Siricius was the first , who imposed single life vpon Priests , and the Cleargy .

MICHEAS .

I do not know , in what age ech of these Fathers did liue , I being more conuersant in the Genealogies of our ancient Prophets , and Iews , then in the Centuries , or ages of the Fathers of Christs Church . Neuertheles Reason , and true discourse informes me , that graunting all , or most of these former alleadged Fathers to haue liued before Siricius , ( as you , my Lord , do auouch , and M. Doctour , doth not deny ) then in regard of their former produced testimonies against the Marriage of Priests , it cannot be conceaued , how Siricius was the first , who annexed perpetuall chastity to Priest-hood . But if it please you , M. Doctour , proceed to other instances .

D. WHITAKERS .

The first Councell of Nice q q Can. 3. forbiddeth Marriage of Priests in these words : Priests are not to haue dwelling with them any Woman , other then their Mother , Sister , their Fathers Sister , their Mothers Sister . Now these words shew an Innouation of this Doctrine touching Priests not marrying , different from the former liberty left to them by Christ .

CARD . BELLARM.

I will not much insist , how this instance ouerthroweth the former instance of Siricius ; Seing it is impossible , that both the Councell , and Siricius ( they being in different times ) should be the first impugners of Priests Marriage . But to come to your example . The Cannon of Nice here alleadged , doth not bring in any Innouation of Priests not marrying ; but onely in regard of some negligence afore vsed , by some of the Cleargy , in not precisely obseruing the Apostles Doctrine herein , doth for the greater caution , Decree , that the said Women ( & no others ) should liue in the howses with Priests . Now that the Doctrine of Priests single life was more ancient , then the Decree , appeareth from the words of Paphnutius , then present at the Councell ; who , though , perhaps , he was perswaded , that Priest-hood did not dissolue Marriage afore contracted , yet he r r This is acknowledged by Socrates lib. 1. c. 8. by Sozom . l. 1 c. 22. by the Centurists , cent. 4. c. 9. and by M. D. Fulke against the Rhemish Testament in Math. 8. saith plainely : Those , who are made Priests before they are married , cannot after marry . And this the said Paphnutius calleth : Veteram Ecclesiae traditionem : so farre Paphnutius was from ascribing it to the Nicene Councell , as to the first authour therof . But proceede on forward , M. Doctour .

D. WHITAKERS .

It is manifest , that he s s D. Whit. contra Duraeum . l. 7. p. 480 who first deliuered Purgatory , for a certaine Doctrine was Gregory the Great . And this my owne reading assureth me .

MICHEAS

M. Doctour . Here I must make bold to interpose my iudgment . And truely , I can hardly be induced to thinke prayer for the dead ( which necessarily resulteth out of the Doctrine of Purgatory ) to be an Innouation ; much lesse the Doctrine therof to be first inuented by the Father , whome you style Gregory the Great ; who , and at what time he liued , I knowe not . My reason is this : I am assured , both by my owne practise , and perusing of our Iewish bookes , that prayer for the dead was euer vsed in our Synagogues , and is practised by vs Iewes euen to this day . And here , supposing , that the Booke of the Machabees be but Apocriphall , yet it is acknowledged by all , that the Histories there recorded , are true Histories . Now there we read , that Iudas Machabeus ( the vndowbted seruant of God ) commanded prayers , and sacrifices to be made for the dead Souldiers , vpon which Act , it is there said : So t t Lib. 2. a. achab . c. 2. he made a reconciliation for the dead , that they might be deliuered from sinne

This Doctrine with vs Iewes was so generall , as that ( to omit all other ancient Rabbins , teaching the same ) Rabby Simeon ( a learned Iew , and who liued before Christ ) thus writeth of those , who are temporally punished after this life : u u In. l. Zoar. in c. 18. Gen. After they are purged from the filth of their sinnes , then doth God cause them to ascend out of that place . But pardon me , for inserting my sentence herein .

CARD . BELLARM.

Worthy Rabby . You haue spoken truely ; and indeede ; as the ancient practise of the Iewes , doth free the Doctrine , and vse of praying for the dead , from the staine of Nouelty in the new Testament ; so these Authorities , and acknowledgments following , do wholy subuert the former Instance of Gregory the Great .

And first , we find S. Augustine ( who liued long before Gregory ) thus to say : x x De Verb. Apost. Serm. 34 Non est dubit andum &c. It is not to be doubted , but that the dead are much helped by the healthfull Sacrifice of the Holy Church , and by almes giuen for their sonles ; and that by these meanes God doth deale more mercifully with them , then their sinns haue deserued . And in another place the sayd Father : Neque y y Agust . in Encheri● . c. 110. negaudum est defunctorum animas pietate suorum viuentium releuari , cum pro illis sacrificium mediatoris offertur ; It cannot be dented , but that the soules of the dead , are releeued , through the pyety of their liuing freinds , when the Sacrifice of the Mediatour is offered vp for them .

D. WHITAKERS .

Many learned Protestants do holde , that Augustine did rest doubtfull of the being of a Purgatory ; among whom D. z z Against the Rhemish Testament . in 1. Cor. 3. Fulke ( that learned man ) doth so write .

CARD . BELLARM.

They do ascribe a doubtfull hesitation to Augustine in this Article , only for the better defence of their contrary Doctrine , Therfore for the greater euidence herein , obserue the free acknowledgments of the learned Protestants themselues passed , not onely vpon Augustine , but vpon other ancient Fathers . Thus , M. Doctour , you shall be herein deadly wounded by the penns of your owne Brethren : and thus may our Sauiours wordes be verified in you : a a Math. 10. mans Enemies shal be they of his owne household .

And first D. Fulke himselfe ( howsoeuer you alleadge him to the contrary ) speaking of Aerius , thus s●ieth : Aerius b b In his answere to a counterfait Catholicke . p. 44 taught , that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable , as witnes Epiphanius , & Augustine . Also the said Doctour confesseth more liberally of this point , thus writyng : c c In his confutation of Purgatory , p. 2. vid. 303. et 393. Tertullian , Augustine , Cyprian , Herome , and a great many more do witnes , that Sacrifice for the dead is the tradition of the Apostles . Which point , M. Doctour , being graunted , and admitting there were no expresse Scripture for this Doctrine , but only warranted by tradition , yet may the conscience of euery good Christian , be secured herein ,

Finally Caluin thus writeth of the former point touching the antiquity of prayer for the dead : d d Iustit 〈◊〉 . c. 5. sect 10. ante trecentos annos vsu receptum fuit , vt praecationes fierent pro mortuis &c. sed fateor in errorem arrepti fuerunt : Within three hundred yeres after Christ , it was in vse to procure prayers to be made for the dead &c. But the performers thereof were led into an errour . Thus much touching Augustine , and the times afore him . Now from the perusall of these Confessions , I much wonder , M. Doctour , how you blushed not , to obtrude the beginning of praier for the dead , vpon Gregory the Great , who liued diuers hundred ages after all the former Fathers were dead .

D. WHITAKERS .

Howsoeuer , my L. Card. you seeke to auoyd my former Instances , yet , what answere can you make touching Pope Victor . f f So saith D. Whit. cont Duraeutin . l. 7. p. 480. who was the first , that exercized iurisdiction vpon foraine Churches ? which sentence of mine , is also approued by my former learned Brother D. g g In his answere to a Cöterfait Catholicke . p. 36. Fulke ; from which example I gather , that Victor ( out of his elation , & pride ) first chalenged that Primacy to him ouer all churches , which your Popes , at this day still vsurp , and retaine : This Pope Victor being one of those , who couet : h h D. Whit. cont. Camp. Rat. 4. ‛ aiem ' aristcucin cai' yperochòn ' émmenai' allon ; to aduance himselfe as the best , and cheifest , aboue all other Bishops .

CARD . BELLARM.

You do much disaduantage your selfe in alleadging this example , considering the time , wherein Victor liued ; to wit , in the yeare 198. An age , during the which , your selfe hath hertofore confessed , that the church ●f Rome did suffer no alteration in her Religion . Now , M. Doctour , wheras you cast an aspersion of pride vpon this most ancient , and reuerend Pope , I wish you take heede that you do not incurre the censure passed vpon Diogenes , who is said to haue reprooued Plato his pride , with greater pride .

D. WHITAKERS .

It is certaine , that many churches , and Fathrs were offended with Victors proceeding therein ; and particulerly that ancient , and pious Father Irenaeus ? which is an infallible argument of Victors vsurpation . For if Victor had true power to excommunicate the churches of Asia ( as it is graunted he actually had ) why should Irenaeus ; and those churches be offended : or reprehend him , for putting onely in execution his lawfull Authority .

CARD . BELLARM.

You must call to minde here , M. Doctour , the reason , why Victor did excommunicate the Churches of Asia , which was , because the Bishops of Asia were vnwilling to conforme themselues to the Church of Rome , in keeping of Easter day , to wit , to keepe it onely vpon Sunday ; whereas they would needs continue the keeping of it vpon the 14. of the Moone , according to the custome of the Iewes : Now for this their reluctation herein against the Church of Christ , Victor did excommunicate them .

But when this seemed ( as being but a Ceremony , and for a time tollerated , through the weaknes of the Iewes ) in the iudgment of diuers , too smal an occasion to excommunicate , and cut off so many famous Churches , therfore Victor was censured by diuers , to be ouer seuere in prosecuting with so great a punishment , so smal a seeming fault . From which , their thus censuring of Victor , we may rather gather his Primacy aboue other Churches , then otherwise : and the reason hereof is , because we do not finde any of the sayd Bishops to charge Victor with any Innouation , in vnduely assuming to himselfe this Authority ouer other Churches ( which doubtlesly they would haue done , if Victor had first taken this priuiledge to himselfe , they being so iustly prouoked thereto ) but they did onely rebuke , ( as is sayd ) his ouermuch rigid seuerity , in punishing ( as they thought ) so rigorously , so smal a disobedience in the Bishops of Asia .

Yea which is more , that Irenaeus , who was most forward in taxinge Victor with his sharp proceeding , ascribeth to Victor a soueraignety ouer all Churches . For besides , that Irenae●s is reprehended by the i i Cent. c. 4. col. 64. l. 2. Centurists , for acknow ledging the Primacy of the Roman Sea , Eusebius thus writeth of Irenaeus touching this point : k k histor. l. 5. c. 24. Irenaeus admonisheth Victor by letters , that he would not ( for the obseruation of a Tradition so long vsed ) quite cut of so many Churches from the body of the Vniuersall Church .

Thus Eusebius . Now I here demand , why should Irenaens dissuade Victor from excommunicating those Churches , but that he was persuaded , that Victor had power to excommunicate them . And thus farre of this instance ; which may be of force ( perhaps ) to prooue , that Victor was ouer seuere , but not that he had not true power ouer other Churches ; for which point it is by you , M. Doctour , vrged . But I pray you passe to other instances ; onely here by the way , I will put you in minde , that careles , and obstinate Christians , ( and such it well may be , some of those Asian Christians were ) haue in some respect small reason to feare the excommunication of the Pope , since these men , through such their disobediency , do commonly excommunicate themselues .

D. WHITAKERS .

It is cleare , that Zozimus , Bonifacius , and Celestinus , l l D. Whit. instanceth in these three Popes . l. 7. Cōl . Durae um pag. 480. ( all Bishops of Rome , did chalenge superiority ouer other Bishops , by forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell ; Which proceeding manifesteth the then vsurped Authority of those Popes , to be contrary to the institution of Christ . Thus these your Popes thirsted after all domination , and Power , though at other times , rhey made shew ( by styling themselues : Serui Seruorum , and by their other affected Humility ) to contemne all honours and eminency . m m Tertul. Cur vultis esse in mundo , qui extra mundum estis ?

CARD . BELLARM.

It is most strange to see how inconsiderately , you proceed . For here you say , that these Popes first introduced this innouatios of the Superiority of the Bishop of Rome , ouer other Churches ; and immediatly afore ( and with all one breath ) you ascribe the beginning thereof to Victor , who liued two hundred yeares before any of these three Popes . If these later Popes brought it in , then Victor did not ? If Victor did begin it , then those Popes could not ? See how irreconciliable these your two Assertions are . From the actions of all which Popes , you can truely gather , that they onely practised an Authority , which the Church of Rome euer had ; but not , that they assumed any soueraignty to them , ( which poynt is only in q 〈…〉 estion ) which afore that Church had not .

D. WHITAKERS .

M. D. Fulke , conspireth with me in alledging the foresaid examples ; and he was a man well conuersant in Ecclesiasticall Histories : his words are these : Zozimus , Bonifacius , & Celestinus did challeng n n In his answere to a cōterfeyt● tho . licke p. 37. prerogatiue ouer the Bishop of Afrik , by forging a false Canon of the Nicene Councel . And this Doctours indgmen● I much pryze , in matters of controuersyes .

CARD . BELLARM.

Both , D. Fulke , his iudgment , ( how learned soeuer you repute him ) and your owne also , must of necessity yeald to the truth herein : seing the example of Victor ( afore infisted vpon by you ) doth vindicate , and free these three later Popes , from all innouation in this poynt . And as touching the supposed forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell , for the erection of the Primacy of Rome ; It is most false , for euen your owne wryters , to wit , o o Lib. 4 Instit. cap. 7 Sect. 9. Caluin himselfe , and Peter p p In his Commö places in English part. 4. p. 39 Martir , do mention the said Canon , as truly made : Only they say , that the Popes did misalleadge this decree , as made by the Councell of Nice , which was made by the Councell of Sardis . And so their Error ( admitting that they did erre ) consisteth only in mistaking , by whether Councell the said Canon was decreed .

D. WHITAKER .

What say you of Boniface the third ? q q So sayth D. Whit●kcr cen●ra Duraeuml . p. 48 It is certain that this Boniface the third , was then the first that intituled the Roman Church to be caput omnium Ecclesiarum : the Head of all Churches .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour you weary me , by idly diuerberating the ayre with these impertinent Examples , and force me to entertayne them with a fastidious neglect . For do not the former Examples of Victor , Zozimus , Bonifacius , ( the first of that name ) and Celestiuus , ( all more ancient , then this Boniface the third take away the weight of this your instance ? And therfore I referre you to my answeres touching them aboue specified . Yet because this verball Instance , consisteth cheifly in the phrase of : Caput omnium Ecclesiarum ; you shall therfore ( for your fuller satr●saction ) know , that this very Title , of being Head of the Church , is acknowledged , and giuen to the Church of Rome , by many both Latine , and Greeke Farhers , who liued diuers hundred of yeares before this Boniface the third , who raigned about the yeare 507.

And first Vincentius Lyrinensis ( who was almost three hundred yeares before this Boniface ) calls the Bishop of Rome ; q q adners Haeres . uersus finem Caput Orbis ; the Head of the Christian World . S. Hierome r r In 1. Timoth. sayth , that Damasus ( then Bishop of Rome ) est Rector domus Dei quae est Ecclesia eins , Damasus is the Reciour or gouernour of the house of God which is his Church . But if Damasus was the gonernour of the Church , then was he the head of the Church . Finally for greater contraction of this poynt , in the Councell of Chalcedon ( consisting of many reuerend Doctours and Bishops , and celebrated an hundred & fifty yeares before this Bonif●ce his tyme ) we thus reade : s s Act. 1. Papae Vrbis Romae , quae est Caput omnium Ecclesiarum precept a habemus . See the like phrase vsed , and giuen to the Pope , and the Church of Rome , by the Emperour Iustinian , t t Cod. de Summa Trinitate leg . 4. Prosper u u de Ingratis c. 2. Victor , x x de Persecut . Wandal . Vticensis , and ( to pretermit others ) by S. y y Epist. 48. ad Anastasium Leo. So fowly M. Doctour , you were deceaued , in alleadging this Bonifacius , and the phrase of Caput Ecclesiarum .

D. WHITAKERS .

Who knoweth not . a a D. 〈…〉 hit cont. Camp. Rat. 6. thus writeth : G 〈…〉 g. Magnus parum ne tuu Pôificē perstringit , quado quisquis se Vniuersale Episcopum vocat , cum Antichristi praecursore procul dubio appellat ? Ioh of Constantinople first challenged to himfelfe , the name of Vniuersnll Bishop ? But Gregorie the Great ( then Bishop of Rome ) eigrauissime , & conflantissimè restitit quousque vixit ; most grauely , and constantly resifled him , as long as he liued ; affirming him to be the Precursor of Antichrist , who should arrogate this tytle of Vniuersall Bishop , to himselfe

But now ( my Lord ) euery Pope since Gregories time styleth himselfe Vniuersall Bishop ; and therfore euery such Pope ( in the iudgment of the sayd Gregory ) is the Precursor of Antichrist : and consequently , euery such Pope hath made no smal change in this mayne point , from the Fayth first planted by Christ : for what commerce , and association in Fayth can there be , betweene Christ , and Antichrist ?

CARD . BELLARM.

Yet M. Doctour , more of these froathy Instances ? Who hath not read or heard , that Gregory the Great liued in the yeare 590. and therefore some thousand yeares since or more ? whereas the former alleadged Victor , Zozimus , Benifacius the first , Celestinus , and Bonifacius the third liued many yeares afore him ; and some of them seuerall hundred of yeares , were his ancients ; How then could they assume a Supreāe Authority ouer all Churches , ( as you afore haue vrged ) and haue the title of Head of the Church giuen them , if Iohn of Constantinople were , either the first , that tooke this title to himfelfe , or that Gregory the Great did dislike it , in that sense , wherein you insist ; Therfore what censorious temerity is this in you M. Doctour , and how hardly can you vindicate your name ( by this your comportment ) from all iust blemish , and disreputation ?

But suppose this reprehension giuen by S. Gregory were true , this only argueth a change to haue bin in Iohn of Constantinople , but not in the Bishop of Rome , which is the only poynt here questioned . Againe , I cannot , but obserue , how in this place , for your aduantage , you can commend Gregory for his humility , and vertue , whom at other tymes you are not afrayd to tearme Antichrist , and whose first Conuersion of you English to Christianity , you haue elsewhere stiled : b b D. Whit. l. de Eccles. cont Bollar . p. 336. Corrupt , and Impure : see how ready , you protestants are to turne the sayles of of your speach to euery winde .

D. WHITAKERS .

Will you deny , that Iohn of Constantinopee did take this title of Vniuersall Bishop to himselfe ; or that Gregory the Great did not reprehend him for the same ? There are ancient Histories recording no lesse .

CARD BELLARM.

No. I do not deny it . But I say , the deceipt lyeth in the equiuocation of the word : Vniuersall Bishop . This worde lyeth open to a double acceptance : either to signify , that hee who is the Vniuersall Bishop , is sole Bishop ; so as it excludeth all others , from being Bishops ; in which sense S. Gregory did tearme it sacrtlegious , prophane , and Antichristian : Or else to signify one , who hath the cheife care , and gouerment of the Vniuersall Church ; by which signification others are not excluded from being Bishops .

That in the first sense Gregory did take the worde : Vniuersall Bishop , is most euident , euen out of Gregoryes owne works ; for thus he writeth hereof : c c Lib. 7. epist 69 ad Euseb. saying : Si vnus est vutuersalis , restat , vt uos Episeopi non sitis . If one be Vniuersall Bishop , it remayneth , that you be no Bishops . And agayne : If d d Lib. 4 Epist. ad Eulogium : Si vnus Patriarcha vniuersalis dicitur , Patria●charnm n●men ●aeteris der ogatūr . one be called the Vniuersall Patriarch , the name of Patriarch is taken away from the rest . In this sense did Gregory take the word , and in this sense did Iohn of Constantinople labour to haue the word applyed to himselfe , endeauouring to be thought the cheife Bishop of the world ( to vse your owne e e Lib. of the Church pag. 62. D. Feilds words ) because his Citty was the cheife Citty of the world .

Thus you see , M. Doctour , how weakly ( or rather , how so Phistically ) you argue from the ambiguous acceptance of the phrase of Vniuersall Bishop . But your fault is here the greater , since you being a scholler ) are not ignorant , that Sophistry is only by incidency , and for caution to be known , but not to be practised : so Phisitions know ( for greater warines ) the venemous nature of certayne hearbs , or druggs .

D. WHITAKERS .

Howsoeuer Gregory might take this word , in your former restrayned sense ; yet seeing he did forbeare to exercise that foueraignty ouer other Bishops , and Churches , which now the Bishops of Rome do practise ; it followeth therefore , that he wholy disliked this swolne domination , and Primacy , so much thirsted after by your Popes .

CARD . BELLARM.

It seemes , M. Doctour , you are a stranger in your owne supposed Israell , I meane , you are not acquainted with your owne learned Brethrens writings : for what poynr of Primacy , and Soueraignty ouer other Churches , and Bishops is there , which Gregory the Great did not exercise , and this by the acknowledgment of your owne Ceeturists ? For though he was a most religious Pope , and so great an Enemy to Pride , as that he might be truly sayd , to haue bin euen ambitious of Humility , yet in respect of his Papall Iurisdiction , it is thus written of him : f f So write the C●turists of Gregory Cent. 6. col. 462. He chalenged to himselfe power to command Arcbishops ; to ordayne or depose Bishops at his pleasure . g g Cent. 6. col . 427. Hee tooke vpon him right to cyte Arcbishops that they should declare their cause before him , when they were by any accused , h h vbi suprà col. 428. Hee placed in other Bishops Prouinces , Legats to konw , and end the causes of those , who made their appeale ta Rome He vsurped power of calling Synods in the provinces of other Bishops . Thus do the Centurists write of Gregory , collecting the Premisses out of his owne writings . To be short , they further in generall thus write of him , saying ; i i Cent. 6. col. 425. Gregorius dicit sedem Romanam speculationem suam toti orbi indicere ; Gregory sayth that the Roman Sea appoynteth her watches ouer the whole world .

Now by all this here deliuered , M. Doctour , you may see , whether or no , Gregory did practise the Authority of an Vniuersall Bishop , as the word is taken in a sober ( and in the Latter aboue mentioned ) construction ? And thus much of the Example of Iohn of Constantinople and of Gregory the Greate ; which is so often enforced , and vrged , though with extreame wilfull ( or at least ignorant ) mistaking by many of your Protestant doctours .

MICHEAS .

Our Law of Moyses euer enioyed one Supreame Priest ; and therfore , seeing the tyme of the new Testament , is much superiour to the tyme of the Law , I do not see , but now in theiyme of Grace , there should be one Supreame Bishop ouer the whole Church of Christ ; and consequently the acknowledgment of such an Vniuersall Bishop should not be reputed any Innouation in Religion , or change made from the first Institution of such a Pastour by Christ hymselfe .

CARD . BELLARM.

Michaeas , you speake according to the Truth , and no more then certaine Puritan protestants do teach , who wryte thus thereof : k k In their Treatise entituled English . Puritanisme printed anno 190 〈◊〉 . p. 16. The ( high Priest of the Iewes was typically , and in a figure , the supreme heade of the whole Catholyke Church ; with whom as other Protestant thus iumpeth , saying : l l Penry in his supplication to the high Court or Parlament That forme of gouerment , which maketh our Sauiour Christ inferio●r to Mo●ses is an impious , vngodly , and vnlawfull gouerment , contrary to the Word . &c. But ( M. D. ) proceede on further .

D. WHITAKERS .

Our best Controuersists , which ( as I may terme them ) a● the Infantaria of our Protestant Churches Souldiers , do teach , that touching m m so saith D. whitakers coutra Du●●um l. 7. p. 490. your Sacrament of Confession , Innocentius the Third was the first , that instituted auricular Confession for necessary . Now this Innocentius liued not past some foure hundred yeares since : so late , and fresh , ( yow fee ) your Doctryne of Auricular Confession is . And admitting this yonr Article , touching Confession , were not so new , but for more ancient ; yet this Circumstance here auayleth litle ; since we are to call to minde , that Haereses non●am Nouitas , quam veritas reuincit .

CARD . BELLARM.

I graunt willingly , that many of your Controuersists ( among whom I also range yourfelfe ) are accounted men of learning ; And therefore I rest the more amazed , to see yow here ( perhaps with resolued willfullnes against the Truth ) obiect this example to vs for Nouelty . But I feare your , and their learninge is cheifly in obtruding errours , and misstakings , for warrantable Truths ; and such a knowledge is not to be preferred before simple Ignorance .

But to cleare this Innocentius from all innouation herein , and not to oppresse yow with multitude of Authorities : We finde S. Bernard ( who liued before Innocentius the third ) thus to wryte of this point : Sed o o Ini Meditat . c. 9. dicis , sufficit mihi soli Deo confiteri &c. But thou saiest , it is sufficient for me to confesse my sinnes only vn to God , because a Preist without him , cannot absolue me from my sinnes : To Which thy argument not I , but S. Iames answereth : Confesse your sinnes one to an other . But to ascend higher ; S. Leo. ( who liued anno 440. ) describing the vse of the Latin Church in this poynt , thus saith : p p Epict. 91. ad Theodorum foro Iulii Episcop. Christus hanc Ecclesiae Prepositis tradidit potestatem &c. Christ did deliuer this power to the Prelates of his Church , that they should impose penance vpon them , that confessed their sinnes ; that so they being purged through a healthfull satisfaction , might be admitted , by Way of reconciliation , to the communion of the Sacraments .

In lyke sort S. Basil . ( S. Leo his ancient ) discoursing of the vse of the Greeke Church herein , and teaching , that a Ghostly Father in tymeof Confession , is an other from himselfe thus writeth : Necessariò q q In questio breuioribus in terogat . 288 peccata eis aperiri debent &c. Our sinns are necessarily , ( see heere the Necessity of Confession ) to be opened to those to whom the dispensation of the Mysteries of Christ are giuen ; for indeede we find , that all the Ancients did follow this course in Penance . To be breife , Cypryan and Tertullian ( of so greate antiquity is Auricular Confession ) are charged by your owne r r Cent. 3. c. 6. col. 127. Centurists to teach priuate Confession ; and this euen of thoughts , and lesser sinnes ; and that such Confession was then commanded ; and thought necessary . Thus far of this point , Where , by the way I must tell you , that since protestancy had it first source from sence , and sensuality , the lesse wounder it is , that Confession of sinnes made to a preist ( being so vngratfull to mans nature ) should be so vnpleasing to all protestants , and so basely esteemed of , for we all know , that the water will ascend no higher , then is the leuell of its first spring .

MICHNS

I must acknowledg , that our Ancient Iewes did vse particular Confession of sinns to a Preist , s s De Arcanis Catholicae . Veritatis l. 10. c. 3. Galatinus ( who hath collecteda summary of our Iewish Religion ) sheweth in diuers parts of his Writings , our continual practise therof . Adde hereto , that the prefiguration of Auricular Confession is not wanting in Leuiticus ; t t Lens● . 2. 3. &c. & ●5 . 6. &c. for seeing there were then appovnted different Sacrifices , to be offered vp by the Priest for different sinns , and offences ; how could the Priest know , what kind of Sacrifice he were to offer , except he knew the particular sinne , for which it is to be offered ? Now then in regard of our Iewish practise hereof , & seing there is no reason , why now in the New Testament , it should be wholy abrogated , I cannot be induced to think , that the vse therof is to be accompted as an innouation , and change , different from the doctrine first planted in Rome by the Apostles .

D. WHITAKERS .

Your doctrine u u D. Whit. cont. Duraeum p. 480. sayth : qni Transubstantiatione primus excogitauit , is suit Innocentius tertius . in Lateranenst Concilio . of Transubstantiatinn was first , inuented by Innocentius the third in the Councell of Lateran : for before that tyme , not any one of the ancient Fathers did hold it : for where euer in any of their writings was made any mention of Transubstantiation ?

CARD . BELLARM.

Good God , how poore , and needy in proofe are you , M. Doctour ? For indeed you greatly wrong your selfe and this presence , in suggesting such vnwarrantable Assertions True it it is , that if you insist in the word : Transubstantiation wee grant , that it was first inuented , and imposed vpon the Doctrine of the Reall Presence , in the councell of Lateran . But then this is but a verball litigation of you : for though the Word was then first formed to expresse the Doctrine of the Church therein ; yet the doctrine it selfe was generally beleeued in all ages before . And still you allow , M. Doctour , by resemblance this illation , as good , and necessary ? The Word ' omousios or Consubstantialis , was first inuented in the Councell of Nice , to expresse the Doctrine of the Church touching the Trinity . Ergo the Doctrine of the Trinity was not beleeued before the Councell of Nice . Idly and inconsequently concluded . Therfore , M. Doctour . let your iudgment herein draw equally with your learning .

But to come particulerly to the doctrine it selfe : and to omit , that S. Augustine sayth : x x Tract 2● in Ioani●em . vocatur caro , quod non capit caro : And in another place : y y Lib. 6. contra Parmenianum . quid gratius offerri , aut suscipi possit , quàm caro Sacrificii nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri ? We are here to remember , that this Councell of Lateran was holden in the yeare , z z Crispinus in his booke of the state of the Church pag. 345. 1215. In which were assembled the Patriarchs of Ierusalem , and Constantinople , 70 Metropolitan Bishops , 400. Bishops , and 800. Conuentuall Priours . Now can it enter into any braine to thinke , that all these learned Men , being gathered together from all the seuerall places of the world , and many of them neuer seeing diuers of the rest , till they were there met , should all ioyntly embrace ( as an innouation , and afore neuer heard of ) a doctrine , so contrary to sense , and fleshly vnderstanding ? It is incompatible with common reason to beleeue , that such a generall Errour could so suddenly inuade , and possesse the iudgments of so many learned Prelates .

But to demonstrate the antiquity of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation : in which sacred Mistery the eye of Faith seeth things inuisible ( It is confessed , by M. Fox a a Act. & Mon. print . 1576 p. 1121 that about the yeare of our Lord , 1060. the denying of Transubstantiation began to be accoumpted an Heresy and the professours therof Heretickes and in that number was first one Berengarius who liued about the yeare 1060. Now then if the denying of the doctrine of Transubstantiation was accoumpted an Heresy , more then a hundred yeares afore the Councell of Lateran was assembled ; how could the doctrine of Transubstantiation take it first beginning at that Councel ? Who seeth not the impossibility hereof ? Againe , how could that doctrine ( in the times set downe by M. Fox ) be denyed , and impugned , except it were then , & afore beleeued , and maintained ?

But to proceede to higher times . Doth not D. Humfrey confesse , that Gregory the Great ( who liued fiue hundred yeares , and more , before the Councell of Lateran ) first brought into England the Doctrine of Transubstantiation saying ; In b b In I●suitis● . part . 2. Rat. 5. p. 628. Ecclesiam vorò quid inuexerunt Gregorius , & Augustinus ? in●ulerunt &c. Transubstantiationem

Againe , your owne Centurists thus speake of Eusebius Emissenus ( an ancient Father : ) Eusebius Emissenus c c Cent. 4. c. 10 Col. 985. p●rùm commodè de Transubstantiatione dixit . And of Chrisostome your foresayd Brethren thus write : Chrysostomus Transubstantiationem videtur confirmare : Chrysostome doth seeme d d Centurist . Cent. 4. c. 4. Co● . 496. to confirme Transubstantiation . The Antiquity of which Doctrine is so great , that Adamus Francisci ( a learned Protestant ) thus acknowledgeth : Transubstantiation e e In Margarit . Theol. pag. 256. did enter early into the Church . Now , M. Doctour , how do all these liberall confessions of so many eminent Protestants stand with your assertion , to wit , that the doctrine of Transubstantiation was first inuented in the Later an Councell ? And consequently that the Church of Christ suffered ( at that time ) a most remarkeable change , and alteration in so sublime an Article .

MICHEAS .

The Doctrine of the Reall Presence taught by the Church of Rome ( in respect of the Sacrifice there performed ) is most conformable to the Prophesies of the ancient Iewes : for to omit the Sacrifice of Melchisadech , which many did teach to prefigure the Sacrifice , which was to be exhibited after the comming of the Messias , we finde most of our ancient Rabbins to be of this minde . Accordingly hereto we read , that Rabby Iudas f f We finde the testimonies of these Rabbins here produced , to be alled●ed by Galatinus de , Arcanis Catholicae Veritatis l. 1. c. 3. Se Rab by Iudas in c. 24. Exo d. and Rabby Simeon in l. entituled : Reuelatio se●retorum . thus writeth : The bread shal be changed , when it shal be sacrificed , from the substance of bread , into the sacrifice of the body of the Messias , which shall descend from Heauen , and himselfe shal be the sacrifice . With Which Rabby ( to omit diuers others ) Rabby Symeon agreeth in these words : The Sacrifice , which after the Messias his comming , Priests shall make &c. they shall make it of bread & wine &c. And that sacrifice , which shal be so celebrated on the Altar , shal be turned into the Body of the Messias : So conspiringly , M. Doctour , we see , did our ancient Iewes before Christs birth , ( by way of Prediction ) teach with the prsent Roman Church , touching the Reall Presence , and the sacrifice performed therin . And therfore it is the more strange to me , that the Doctrine of the Reall Presence , and of the Sacrifice should be reputed by you , as an ●nnouation lately brought into the Church of Rome ; for I must needs thinke that Christ himselfe did first institute the same . And thus I beleeue , that though in our Law , Isaack was externally offred , vp though not Sacrificed ; Yet now in the New Testament the Messias is daily Sacrificed ; though not externally offered vp .

D. WHITAKERS .

My Lord Cardinall . To passe from the Doctrine it selfe , of the Reall Presence , or Transubstantiation ; Yet how can you excuse from Nouelisine those phrases , touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist , first inuented by Pope Nicolaus the second , to wit , that g g D. Whit. Cont. Duraeum . l. 7. p. 480. Saith qui primus docuit corpus Christi ●esualiter tractari , frangi et dentil● 〈◊〉 ri , suit Nicola●s sec●dus . the body of Christ is sensibly handled , broken , and chewed with the teeth ? So grossely do you Romanists teach herein , as to maintaine a Doctrine , which hath nothing to plead for it , but only some few hundreds of yeares .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour . You now carry your selfe like a cowardly Masti●ie ( pardon this my homely similitude ) which not being able to take any strong , and firme hold at the head of his enemy , is glad in the end to catch at the flanck , or other the hindermost parts : So you , seing you cannot truly charge the Doctrine it selfe , of the Reall presence with innouation ; are content to quarrell , and snatch at certaine phrases , and words vsed ( by some Doctours ) about the said Doctrine . But to your obiection : Which ( once granting the truth of the Reall Presence ) is meerely verball . Therefore I say , that these phrases are taken in a sober , and restiained construction : That is , they are immediatly to be referred to the formes of Bread , and Wine , vnder which the body , & bloud of Christ do lye . Now that these phrases were not first coyned by this Pope Nicolaus ( as you auerre ) it is euident out of the writings of S. Chrysostome , who liued many ages before this Pope Nicolaus . This Father in one place thus writeth : h h Chrysist . in . 1. Cor. Hom. 24. Christ suffered fraction or breaking in the oblation , which he would not suffer vpon the Crosse . And in an other place more fully , saying : i i Chrys. in Mat. hom. 83 ipsum vides , ipsum targis , ipsum comedis : And yet more expresly : Non k k Chrysost. in Ioan hem . 45. se tantum videir permittit desider antibus ; sed et tangi , et manancari , et denies carni suae infigi ; Christ doth not only permit himselfe to be scene of those , who desired to see him ; but also to be touched , and eaten by them , and theire teeth to be fastened in his flesh . Thus we see , that S. Chrysostom was not afraid to vse the foresaid phrases in a reserued sence , which you make so capitall , & heinous . We may adioyne hereto , that Iacobus Andreas ( a famous Protestant , but a Lutheran ) answereth this very obiection which you father vpon Pope Nicolaus ( as the first inuentor of the former phrazes ) and thus concludeth thereof , saying : l l In consut . disputant . Ioannis Gr●naei ; p. 214 215. This obiection taken from Pope Nicolaus , nihil , continet , quod inscriptis Orthodoxorum Patrum ( Chysostomi in primis● ) non continetur .

D. WHITAKERS .

I will not be long in reciting Innouations of strange Doctrins , introduced into the Church of Rome , since the Apostles times . Therefore I will end with the Instance of the fast of Quatuor m m So saith D. Whit. cont. Duraeum l. 〈◊〉 . c. 480. Temporum , which was first ordained by Pope Calixtus .

CARD . BELLARM.

The Vessell , M. Doctour , from whence you draw these Instances , seemes to runne very low , and nere the dreggs ; Seeing for want of examples , for change in dogmaticall points of faith , you are forced at the last to descend to the Institution of set times of fasts . For what is this to the alteration of Faith , and Religion in the Church of Rome , in any dogmaticall Article , which is the point only to be insisted vpon by you ? Hath not the Church of Christ authority to appoint fasting dayes ? The n n Act. 15. Apostles ( you know ) did lawfully command all men to forbeare from eating of bloud , and of things strangled ; and may not the Church succeeding them , as lawfully command , that ( at certaine times of the yeare , and for some few dayes ) the Christians shall for beare from eating of fleash , and vse a more moderate dyet ? But it seemes , you loue not to feede vpon superstitious , & Popish fish , since many of you accoumpt it so .

Now as touching the antiquity of this fast of Quatuor Temporum . Where you say , it was first ordained by Calixius ; you grant hereby , that it is aboue fourteene hundred yeares , since it first institution : for Calixtus was the next successour ( but one ) to Pope Victor ; which Victor liued in the yeare of our Lord , and Sauiour , one hundred and sixty . Thus you are more preiudized , then aduantaged by prostituting this your sily supposed Innouation . I will annex hereto , that whereas , M. Doctour , you do not produce any ancient authour charging Calixtus , with the first beginning of this Fast , we ( on the contrary side ) can alleadge S. Leo ascribing it to proceede from the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost ; his words are these following : o o Serm. 8. Ecclesiastica ieiunia ex doctrina Sancti Spiritus , ita per totius anni circulum distribura sunt . And thus much touching the Antiquity , and lawfulnes of the Past of Quatuor Temporum ; whereof you see , M. Doctour , your owne bare assertion excepted , no certaine beginning can be knowne , since the Apostles dayes . But ( Sir ) proceede further in other instances , if so you can .

D. WHITAKERS .

Touching further multiplicity of examples I will not much labour . The time is already spent ; And I hope my former examples ( notwithstanding your subtill euading of them ) are able to sway with all such , who are truly illuminated with the spirit of the Lord .

CARD . BELLARM.

I beleeue you well . You will not labour further therin ; the true reason being , because you cannot . For I haue perused your bookes , written against Duraeus ( wherein you cheifly instance , touching the change of the faith of Rome ; ) and your other Bookes against Father Campian ( that blessed Martyr ) as also your writings against my selfe ; and I can finde no other instances of this imaginary change , insisted by you , then these alleadged . Yea , when the said Father Campian ) as most confident of no change of Faith in the Church of Rome , ) did most earnestly prouoke you Protestants , to name the time and other circumstances ( accompanying this supposed change ) in those his vehement , and inforcing Interrogations : p p Rat. 10. Edm. Campiani . Rat. 7. Quando hanc fide●tant opore celebratum Roma perdidit ? quardo esse desi●t , quod antefuit ? quo tempore , quo Pontifice , qua via , qua vi , quibus incrementis Vrbem , et Orbem Relgio peruasit aliena ? quas voces , quas turbes , quae lamenta progenuit ? Omnes orbe reliquo sopiti sunt , dum Roma ( Roma inquam ) noua Sacramenta , nonum Sacrificium , nouum Religionis dogma procuderet ? You , ( though thus a wakened , yet ) in your answere hereto , only dwells in your former example of Pope Siricius ( aboue refuted ) touching the single life of Priests ; & in place of further satisfaction , you thus reply to the said Father Campian : q q D. Whit. So saith , Cont. Camp. in Rat. 7. Tuverò si dubitas , an desierit ( meaning , whether Rome had changed it Religion ) potes etiam , si vis dubitare , ansul meridie splendeat . Can any man ( not blinded with preiudice ) thinke , that if you had any materiall proofes for it change ( being a point of the greatest consequence , that is betweene you , and vs ) but that you ( being thus extremely import●ned ) would haue particularly iusisted in them , and would haue enlarged such your reply , with all reading , wit , & learning possible ? And as for your former Instances , they are most impertinent , and in themselues most false ( as is aboue demonstrated ) they being w●res ( I presume ) wholy wrought in the shop of your owne braine ; like the spiders web , which is spinned out of her owne Bowels .

MICHEAS .

M. Doctonr , you must giue me leaue to tell you , that your Instances ( aboue vrged ) do not much sway my iudgment ; first , because they are not in number , past some nine or ten in all ; of which foure do concerne only the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome , and two the doctrine of the Reall Presence ( so as it may be iustly coniectured , that you Produced seuerall instances for one doctrine , purposely therby to make shew ( in this your so great a scarcity ) of greater number of Examples ) The rest concerne Priests nor marying , Purgatory , auricular Confession , and the fast of Quauor Temporum . Which doctrines are few in respect of the many controuerted points ( as I am enformed ) betweene the Church of Rome , and the Protestants . Therfore I must presume , that no instances can be , but suggested , or imagined to be giuen of the change of the Church of Rome , touching the doctrines of the Visibility of the Church , of Praying to Saints , of Free-will , Merit of workes , Workes of supererogation , Indulgences , Monachisme , Lymbus patrum , Images , the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament , Communion only vnder one kind , Vninersallity of Grace , the Necessuy , and vertue of the Sacraments , Inherent iustice , the knowledge of Christ , a man , His being God of God , and diuers others . Secondly , in that touching your former Instances , some of the sayd doctrines are so agreeable to the practise of our Iewish Synagogue , and the iudgments of our learned Rabbyes ( as I haue shewed ) as that I can hardly repute them , as Innouations .

D. WHITAKERS .

The vnanimous agreement of the Church of Rome with you Iewes , in some of the former doctrines , is of smale force ; seeing you well know ( Micheas ) that the Law was to be abrogated , at the comming of the Messias .

MICHEAS .

It is granted , that our Law at the comming of the Sauiour of the world , was to be disanulled ; so far forth , as concerne either sacrifices , or other Ceremonies , which did prefigure the comming of the Messias ? yet seeing many dogmaticall points of faith beleeued by the Iewes , haue no reference to his comming ; ( as the foresaid doctrines of Purgatory , Confession of sinns &c. ) therfore there can be no reason alleadged , why the beleife of them in the time of the Lawe , should not be a strong argument for their like beleife now in the time of Grace . Wee may add hereto , that if euery thing which was taught , and commanded by the Law , should now be abrogated ; then the tenne Commandements should in no sort belong to you Christians ; And consequently the comming of the Messias should be a sufficient warrant for your breach of the said Commandements ; then which to grant , nothing can be excogitated more absurd , or more derogating from the honour of Christ . But ( good M. Doctour ) if you haue any more , that can be produced for proofe of change of Faith , made by the Church of Rome , I would intreate you to perseuer in your discourse .

D. WHITAKERS .

Though I should grant some insufficiency , and defect in my former instances , and that we could not insist at all in any particulars of that nature ; neuerthelesse we are not endangered therby : r r So sayth D. Whit. contra Duraeis p. 277. For we are not bound to answere , in what age superstition crept into the Church . And to grant more fully herein : s s D. Whit. contra Camp. Rat. 7. Thus saith of this point De tempore non est sacile respondere ; neque id necessarium est vt temporum momenta prodantur Of the tymes of this change , it is not easi to answere ; neither is it necessary , that the tymes of all such changes be set downe . Breifly , I auerre , t t So D. Whitak . contra duraeum pag. 277. It is not needfull in vs , to search out in histories the beginning of this change . And with me in iudgment herein agree many learned Protestants ; As for example ( to omit others ) Bucanus thus writeth : u u Bucanus In loc com . pag. 466. Non est nostrum designare , quo temporis momento caeperit Ecclesia deficere . As also M. Powell , saying : We x x M. Powl In his consideration of the Popists supplication Pag. 43. cannot tell , neither by who , or at what tyme , the Enemy did sow it &c. neither indeed do we know , who was the first authour of euery one of your blasphemous opinions .

CARD . BELLARM.

O Iesus . What strange and conscious tergiuersations are these ? And how mortally do they wound your cause , & Religion , wholy discouering your dispaire , and diffidence therein ? For do not these Confessions ouerthrow your former instances ? If your supposed Examples be true , then did you know the times of such a chaunge : if you doe not knowe the times of the change ( as here you confesse , you do not ) why then would you alleadge the foresaid Examples ? How can you extricate your selfe , M. Doctour , out of this maze , or how can you decline this forked Delemma ?

Furthermore , if it cannot be knowne , when any change of Fayth was made ( as here you , and your Brethren confesse , it cannot ) why should we beleiue there was made any change at all ? He is weake , who enthralleth his iudgment to the beleife of any such thing , if so he wanteth the necessary , and conducing Circumstances , for the fortifying of such his beleife . But belike you will finally say with Ioannes Rhegius ( a Protestant ) who not being able to exemplify any change in the Church of Rome , arriued to that height of impudency , as thus to write : Sed denique licet verum esset , Romanam Ecclesiam in sua Religione nihil mutasse , an propterea mox sequetur , eam esse veram Ecclesiam ? Non opinor . Thus this Protestant .

D. WHITAKERS .

Not so , my Lord Cardinall , for I grant a change ; and the chang of Fayth made in the Church of Rome , may well resemble y y D. Whitakers for proose of the change of the faith of Rome . alledgeth this similitude saying : Pili non subito omnes ea●escūt nec quicquam repentē habet suam maturitatem . Contra Camp Rat. 7. the change in colour , which heires do make , in being become gray ; nothing hauing it maturity vpon the sodaine . In like sort it may aptly resemble the changes in z z D Whit contra Camp. Rat. 7. thus saith in Ecclesia Romana accidit , quëad modum in magno aedificio videmus euenire &c. quod ruinas aliquo loco in cipit agere &c. Ita Romana Ecclesia leporum successione &c. Edifices , & houses occasioned by their ruines , and decaies . We see by experience , these changes are true , and reall ; and yet cannot any man set downe punctually the tyme , when either the heires are becom gray , or the buildings are made ruinous . The like may be sayd touching the change of Fayth in the Roman Church : certaine it is , that such a change is already made ; but when , by whom , and in what manner , it is most vncertaine .

MICHEAS .

What , M. Doctour , do your greatest proofs for the change of Religion finally end in these similitudes ? If so , then I may say , I do carry about me , my best instructours herein , must these gray haires of this my hoary heade , and beard ( my selfe being 60. yeares of age , and more ) and the decayes of this my old body ( for the same reason there is here of a ruinous body , which is of a ruinous house ) teach me , what Religion among you Christians , I am to embrace ? Haue my wearied members taken so great a iourney of so many hundred miles to this place , only to take aduise of my beard , and my owne feeble limms ; which , sitting at the sire side at home , I coulde with farre more ease , and with as much certainty haue performed ? ô the misery of man , who lyeth open ( in matters of greatest waight , and importance ) to the deceit of such rotten foundations ; they being as weake for proofe of what they are vrged as the things , from which these resemblances are taken , are weake in their owne nature .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour , I do assure you in all sincerity , I do much condole the state of ignorant Lay Protestants , to see how their eyes are sealed vp by the learneder sort of you : who in your Pulpits , and writings are often accustomed to inueighe in great acerbity of stile : and tragicall exclamations , against the Church of Rome , for hauing altered ( as you beare your followers in hand ) her Primitiue Faith ; But you being pressed to prooue this imaginary change , are forced for the warranting thereof , to take your last and best proofs from some few gray hayres , and sl●fters in an old rotten wall .

But because these similitudes , and resemblances are most vrged , not only by your selfe , but also by many other Protestants of Note , and haue much swayd with vulgar iudgments , not in respect of any force in them , but in regard of the eminency of their first Inuentors ( so the water heateth , not because it is water but by reason of it borrowed heate elswhere : Therefore I will examine them narrowly , and will shew the great disparity betweene them , and the change , which is at any time made in Religion .

1 First then , the first smale decay in any building , and the ( first shew of whitenes in haires is imperceptible , and not to be discerned ; wheras euery change in faith ( though but in one point , or article ) is most markeable , and subiect to obseruation .

2 Secondly , the whitenes of the haires of the head , and the ruins of a house do not happen , but by degrees ; and therefore at the first cannot be obserued ; whereas euery Opinion in doctrine is at the first either true , or false ; and therefore is for such at the first to be apprehended by the vnderstanding .

(3) Thirdly , not any haue the charge , or care imposed vpon them , to obserue the changes in these petty matters ; but in the Church of Christ there are euer appointed Pastours , & Doctors , whose office is to marke the first beginning of any innouation in doctrine , and accordingly to labour to suppresse the same .

(4) Fourthly , these similitudes , and deceitfull resemblances ( being truly vrged ) do recoyle backe with disaduantage to the Protestants . For although we cannot shew , when the first haire began to be white , or the first slifter in a house begunne to be a slifter ; yet any notable degrees of the said whitenes in the haires , or of the slifters in a house are easily discerned : and therefore the Protestants are obliged ( euen from the nature of these their owne similitudes ) to tell vs , at what times some sensible degrees , and increase of this supposed change did happen ; and the manifestation of these degrees is to be made , by naming the time , and person , when , & by whom such , and such a particular poynt , or article of our present Roman Religion , was first sensibly introduced into the Church of Rome . The which not any Protestant ( notwithstanding all his exquisite and precise search of Ecclesiasticall Histories ) hath bin able yet to perform . And thus farre , M. Doctour , of these your similitudes ; which ( you see ) in a true ballancing of them , do become rather hurtfull then beneficiall to your Cause ; and therfore they had ben better forborne by you then vrged .

D. WHITAKERS .

Indeede I grant , that there are no Histories , or Records at this day , out of which we can certainly collect the change of Religion in the Roman Church . But ( no doubt ) such Records there were , though now wholy extinguished , & made away , by the vigilancy , and carefulnes of former P●pes , who to preserue the honour of their Church ( as free , and exempt from all change , and innouation ) did deliberately , & purposely cause all Coppies of such writings , and narrations , to be for euer suppressed , and buried in obliuion , eyther by fire , or otherwise .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour , this is a meare groundles Phantasie . If you haue any graue testimonies warranting a generall suppression of all such records ; then all of them were not extinguished since the testimonies , which affirme so much , are yet extant . If you produce no authority witnessing so much , then why should we beleiue your bare , and naked affirmation herein ? But to examine more punctually this poore refuge . And first , wheras you teach , that this change of Faith in the Roman Church came in by degrees , now by innouating one point of the ancient true Fayth , now another : supposing for the time this to be true , how can it be conceiued , that all the Coppies of such particular changes in Faith , already dispersed throughout all Christendome in the handes of infinite Protestants ( as you mantaine , though vntruly that in those times they were ) could be gathered , & suppressed without any remembrance thereof to all posterity ? It is most absurd , but to furmise such an impossibility .

Furthermore do we not see , that the liues of such Popes , which can be lesse warranted , were recorded in histories , yet extant to this very houre ( as else where is intimated : ) Neither the narrations of them either were , or could euer be suppressed ? How then can we be persuaded , that the memory of this supposed great chang could by any such meanes be cancelled in a perpetuall forgetfulnes ? Since certaine it is , that the Popes ( if possible they could ) would haue caused all narrations , touching the personall faults of their Predecessours to haue beene vtterly extinguished ; considering , that such their lesse iustifiable liues might be reputed by many to be no smale blemisne to the Church of Rome : Such an improbability this your euasion , M. Doctour , inuolues in its selfe .

D. WHITAKERS .

My Lord , It seemes you are very dexterous in warding all our instances , and other arguments ( aboue produced ) to prooue the former presumed change . But imagine for the time , that we cannot alleadge out of any now extant authorized history , examples of any knowne innouation : imagine also , that we cannot shew , at what particular time , and season , the parcels of these changes did happen : imagine lastly , that there were neuer any records , testimonies , or writings , in which these changes were registred ; yet how are you able to put by the sharp-poynted weapon of Scripture , wherwith your religion is mortally foyled ? We know that the Fayth of the present Roman Religion is repugnant to the holy Scriptures ; to which only wee appeale ; and whose a a D. Whit. cont. Camp. saith : ●utarc●●a scripturarum defend mu● Ra● . 1. ●autarceia , and all sufficiency is defended by vs Protestants ; the sacred Scripture being to vs more then b b D. Whit. cont. Camp. Rat. 10. decaplês ▪ apologia , a tenfould shield of our fayth : This ( I say ) we know , and consequently we further know , that the fayth of the Romish Church is not the same , which was planted in Rome by the Apostles . Here is our fortresse , here is our strength , and this place to you Romanists is maccessible . Here we haue c c D. Whit. cont. Comp. Rat. 2. Tò retòn , the Word ; & ▪ epi tèn dianeian tóùr etóù , to the true meaning of the Word all Controuersies are to be referred : And with this Word we are able to inflict d d D. Whit. vbi suprà Rat. 9. Cairian p●etèn , deadly to wound your popish Religion . And we are so truely impatrônized of the holy Scripture , as that wee dare pronounce with the Apostle : If an e e Galat. c. 1 Angell reach any other Ghosple vnto you , then that which wee haue preached , let him be Anathema . For f f D. ●hit . cont. Duraeum . l. 7. p. 478. saith : nobis sufficit &c. ex Pontificioru dogmati● et scripturarum collatione , discrimen et dissimultudine agnoscere Histo● 〈◊〉 liberum relixquimus , scribere qui●velint . to vs it is sufficient , by comparing the Popish Opinious with the Scripture to discouer the disparity of Fayth betweene them , and vs ; and as for Historiographers , Wee giue them liberty to write what they will ? seeing this g g D. Whit. cont. Camp. Rat. 5. aplóùs lógos tes ' aletheias this simple Word of truth is able to refute any thing brought to the contrary . And therf●re my Lord Cardinall , I must say to you here with Archidamus : h h D. Whit. haleth in this sentence , in Rat. 〈◊〉 . cont. Camp . ‛ èt è● dynamei próstheis ' e tóù phronématos ' ypheis , either mantaine your Religion with the force of Scripture , or else wisely cease from the further defence thereof .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour , before I come to ballance this your last argument , you must pardon me , if I smile to my selle to obserue , how affectedly , and ambitiously you haue rioted in your Greeke throughout this whole discourse ; and especially in this your last close , besprinkling diuers passages thereof ( as it were ) with some Greeke word or other . Which in my iudgment ( beare with me if I misconster your meaning ) is but to beare your ignorant followers in hand , what jolly men , and great Clarkes you Protestants are . And according hereto we commonly find , the bookes writen either by English , French , or German Protestants , euen to swell with Greeke phrases , or sentences . But who seeth not , how forced this is ? it being a point of ostentation , and vanity , thus to braue it forth in a froath of strange wordes .

We all know , the tongues are but the porters of learning ( in which the Catholicks , though with more cession , & modesty , are most skilfull ) and that he , who is a learned man indeede , is euer presumed afore hand to be expert in them , as being meanes conducing to the perfection of learning : Thus the want of Greeke is a great defect ; the enioying of it but a necessary furniture of a scholar . Therefore who vanteth hereof or is become fond of a few greeke words ( being commonly ignorant of the riches contayned in that tongue , as many Protestants are ) is like to that man , who taketh delight in a litle Mother of Pearle , he reioiceth ; he hauing no interest to the Pearle within contayned . I speake not this , but that it is lawfull sometime to make vse of Greeke phrases , and sentences ; but this chiefly , when the Question is touching translations out of that tongue , and that we are to recurre to the Greeke ( being the originall ) for the cleering of that point : Or when the Greeke word , or phrase carieth with it a greater grace , emphecy , and force , then the same in Latin , or English will beare . But this I euer auerre , that to be ready vpon euery little occasion to prostitute , or staule forth ones Greeke ( a distemperature peculiar to Protestants ) as if he tooke a pride , in that he is skilfull in coniugating of typtò : This man ( I say ) deserues to be verberated throughout all the moodes , and tences of the word , for such his folly : This course being among all graue , & learned men , iustly censured for an exploded vanity .

But now , M. Doctour , to descend to your reason touched aboue , and drawne from the authority of the holy Scripture . Here I say , you haue taken your last Sanctuary ; not in that the Scripture maketh for you , and against vs ; but that by this meanes you may the better reiect all other authorities , though neuer so forcible , & reduce the triall of all controuersies to your owne priuat Iudgments ? since you will acknowledge no other sence of the scripture , than what the Genius of Protestancy doth vouchsafe to impose vpon the Letter . & thus by your faire pretended Glosse of the Scripture in this your last extremity , you Protestants well resemble that Man , who being ready to fall , thinketh not how to preuent the fall , but how to fall in the fayrest , and easiest place . The like ( I say ) you do vnder the priuiledge of the reuealing spirit , interpreting the Scripture ; the vaine , & fluctuating vncertainty of which Spirit , to discouer ( though this place be not capable therof ) were indeed to cut in sunder the cheife Artery , which giueth life to the huge Body of Heresie ? since once take away this Priuate Spirit , Heresie is but like a dying lampe , which hath no oyle to feede it : Only I will here pronounce , that as some haue thus left written . That must be good , which Nero persecuteth ; so here I do iustify by the contrary , that it must be euill , and false , which the Priuate Spirit affecteth , and manteineth . But let vs proceed herein further , and dissect the veine of this your last , & most despayring tergiuersation .

First then , wee are to call to minde , that it hath euer beene the very countenance , and eye of all innouation in religion , to seeke to support it selfe by misapplyed , and racked Texts of Scripture ; a practise so anciently vsed ( though in these later dayes it hath receaued more full groath ) as that it was obserued by i i Contra Maximinum Arianum E p c p. l. 1. Augustine , k k Ep st. ad Paulinum . Hierome , l l De praes●r . aduers . Haeres . see c. 19. 30. 35. 36. Tertullian , and finally by old Vincentius m m Vincent . aduers . Haeres . Lyrinensis who thus expressely writeth , not only of his owne times , but euen ( in a presaging spirit ) of our times : An Haeretici diuinis Scripturae testimoniis vtantur ? Viuntur planè , & vehementer quidem ; Sed tantò magis cauendi su●● . Now this being so , you are forced , M. Doctour , for your last retire , and refuge , to compart in practise with all ancient , and moderne Hereticks

Secondly , the Scripture cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture , and consequently it is not able to decide all controuersies ; which assertion of mine is warranted by your prime men M. Hooker , thus teaching : n n In his Eccles. policy Sect. 14. p. 86. Of things necessary the very cheifest is , to know what bookes wee are bound to esteeme holy ; which poynt is confessed impossible , for the scripture it selfe to teach . And according hereto , you Protestants do not agree , which Bookes be Canonicall Scripture , which Apocriphall . For doth not Luther o o Luther in titul . de libris veteris et ncui Testamenti ; as also in his Prolego●a . to diuers of the books of the new Testament . and diuers of the Lutherans recite ( as apocriphall ) the booke of Iob , Ecclesiastes , the Epistle of S. Iames , the Epistle of Iude , the second Epistle of Peter , the second , and third of Iohn , and finally the Apocalipes ? All which bookes are neuerthelesse acknowledged by Caluin , and the Caluenists for canonicall Scripture .

Thirdly , euen of those bookes , which all Protestants ioyntly receiue as Canonicall Scripture , the Protestants doe condemne ( as most false , and corrupt ) not only the present originals , but also all Translations of the said bookes , whether they be made in Greeke , Latin , or English ; as apeareth from the reciprocall condemnations of one anothers Translation : for the more full discouery of which point , I referre you , M. Doctour , to the perusing of a booke some few yeares since written , by a Catholicke Priest , and Doctour of diuinity , entituled : The p p See seauen of the first chapters of the second part of that book ; all of them being spent in displaying the Protestants condenation of all orginals , & Translations of Scripture . Pseudoscripturists .

Fourthly , the very text , and letter of such bookes , as you all acknowledg for Canonicall Scripture , are more cleere for our Catholicke Faith , and in that sence are expounded by the ancient Fathers ; then any the Countertexts are , which you produce to impunge our doctrine . For some tast I will exemplify the perspicuity of the letter in some few points . And first , for the Primacy of Peter we alleadge : q q Math. 16 Thou art Peter , and vpon this rocke I will build my Church &c. expounded With v●by r r In Psab●contra parté Donali Augustine , s s In c. 16 Math. Hierome , t t In Epist. ad Quintu . Cyprian , & others .

For the Reall Presence , we insist in our Sauiours words : u u Recorded by al the Euangelists . This is my Body , this is my Blood ; taken in our sense by x x Theoph. in hunc locum . Theophilact , y y Chrysosti● hunc locum . Chrysostome , the z z Cyril Hierosol . cat . 4. mystag . Cyril . Alexand . epist ad Calosirium . Cyrils , a a Lib. de sacramentis c. 5. Ambrose , and indeed by all the ancient Fathers , without exception .

For Priests remitting of sinnes , we vrge that : whose b b Ioan. 20. sinnes you shall renut , they are remitted vnto them , and whose sinnes you shall reteine , are reteyned ; which passage is interpreted in our Catholicke sence , by c c Epist. ad Heliodorum Hierome , d d Lib. de sacerdotio . Chrisostome , f f Ioan. 3. Augustine , and others .

For Necessity of Baptisme : Except (a) a Man be borne againe of water , and the spirit , he cannot enter into the kingdome of Heauen . Of which our Catholicke exposition see g g In hunc locum . Augustine , h h In hunc locum . Chrisostome , i i L b. de spiritu Sancto c. 11. Ambrose , k k In c. 16. Ezech. Hierome , l l L b. 3. ad Quirinum . Cyprian &c.

For Iustification by works : m m Iac. c. 2. Do you see , because of works a man is Iustisied , and not by Faith only ? expounded with vs ( to omit all others for breuity , by n n L. de fide ct oper. c. 14. Augustine .

Lastly ( to auoid prolixitie ) for vnwritten Traditions , we vsually alleadge those words of the Apostle , Therefore (e) Lib. 20. de Ciuilate Dei o o Thes. c. 2. Brethren , hold the Traditions , which you haue receiued , either by steach , or by Epistle ; interpreted with vs Catholicks by p p L. De side cap. 17. Dam●scene , q q De spirit . sauct . c. 29. Basill , r r In hunc locum Chrysostome &c.

Thus farre for a ●ast herein ; in which Texts , and diuers others omitted , you are to note , M. Doctour , first , that the Texts themselues are so plaine , and literall , that the very Thesis , or Conclusion it selfe mantained by vs , is conteined in the Words of the said Texts ; and therefore you Protestants are forced ( by way of answere ) commonly to expound those texts figuratiuely . Secondly , you are to be aduertised here , that as we can produce many Fathers , expounding these , and other like places in our Catholicke sence ; so you are not able to alleadge any one approoued Father ( among so many ) interpreting , but any one of the said passages of scripture in your Protestant Construction . Thirdly , and lastly , you are to obserue , that such texts , as the Protestants vrge against these , & other Catholicke Articles defended by vs , are nothing so literall , plaine , and naturall for their purpose ; but for the most part are vrged by them , by way of inference , and deduction ; which kinde of proofs is often false , and sometimes , but probable . Neither can you , or they alleadge any one Orthodoxall Father of the Primitiue Church ( a circumstance much to be considered , and insisted vpon ) interpreting such your testimonies in your construction . And thus farre of this point ; where , for greater expedition , I do but skimme the matter ouer .

D. WHITAKERS .

I do not much prize the authorities of the ancient Fathers , in interpreting the Scripture . And furthermore , you are to conceiue , that l l D. Whit. De sacra script . p. 521. saith : Nam quando scriptura non habetviuā vocem , quam aud●amus ; vtendum est quibus●lam mediis , quibus inuestigamus quissit ses●s quae meas scripturari● . seing the scripture hath not vi●am vocem , which we may heare ; Therefore we are to vse certaine meanes , by the which we may finde out which is the sence , and construction of the scripture . For to seeke it without meanes , is meerely 2 2 So saith D. Whit. l. de Eccles. contrauers . 2. quaest. 2. p. 221. ‛ enthysiasticòn , et Anabaptisticum . Now the meanes ( according to my iudgment , and M. Doctour Reinolds ) 3 3 D. Reynolds In his Conference p. 83. 84. 92. 98. are these following : The reading of the scriptures , the conference of places , the weighing of the circumstances of the Text , Skill in tongues , diligence , prayer , and the like . And who hath these , and accordingly practiseth them , is assured of finding the true , and vndoubted meaning of the most difficult passages of the scripture ; and thereby is able to determine any controuersies in Religion .

CARD . BELLARM.

I do grant , that these are good humane meanes , for the searching out of the intended sence of the scripture . But I will neuer yeild them to be infallible , as here you intimate them to be ; since this is not only impugned by experience of Luther , and Caluin , who would ( no doubt ) equally vaunt of their enioying these meanes , ( and yet irreconcileably differ in the construction of the words of our Sauiour , touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist , ) but also it is most contrary to your owne assertion deliuered in one of your bookes euen against my selfe ; where you write of the vncertainty , and ( perhaps falshood ) of these Meanes , in this manner : 4 4 D. Whit. cotra Bellar. de Eccles. contrauers . 2. quaesi . 2. pag. 221. thus writeth . qualia illa media sunt , tale ipsa interpretatione esse necesse est : At media interpretadi leca obscura sunt , incerta , dubia , et ambigua ; Ergo fieri non potest , quin et ipsa interpretat . o. incerta sit ; si incerta ; tunc esse potest falsa . obserue what the meanes are , such of necessity must the interprteation be ; but the meanes of interpreting obscure places of scripture are vncertaine , doubtfull , and ambiguous ; therefore it cannot otherwise fall out , but that the interpretation must be vncertayne ; and if vncertaine , then may it be false . Thus you , M. Doctonr , and if I haue in any sort depraued your words , then here challenge me for the same . Now what say you to this ? Can it possible be , that your selfe should thus crosse your selfe ? Or may it be imagined , that your penne at vnawares did drop downe so fowle a blot of contradiction ? O , God forbid . The ouersight were too greate . Therefore we will charitably reconcile all , and say ; that D. Whitakers Bellarmines aduersary in writing ) hath only contradicted the learned D. Whitakers , cheife ornament of Cambridge . But enough of this point ; from whence the weakenesse , of this your last refuge to only scripture , is sufficiently layd open .

MICHEAS .

I grant , I am not conuersant in the authorities of the New Testament , as they haue reference to the controuerted points of these dayes ; since my cheife labour hath beene employed in diligently reading the Law , and the Prophets : neuerthelesse I am acertayned , M. Doctour , that seuerall passages of the said Law , and Prophets , ( in a plaine , and ingenuous construction ) do greatly fortify some Opinions , defended by the Church of Rome . I will insist ( for greater compendiousnes ) in two opinions , taught ( as I am informed ) by the sayd Church : within which two , many other controuersies ( if not all ) are implicitl infolded . The first is touching the euer Visibility of the Church in the time of the Messi●s . Now what can be more irrefragably prooued , then this article out of those words of the Psalmist ? He s s Psal. 18. placed his Tabernacle in the Sunne . As also out of that passage of Daniell : t t Dan. 2. Akingdome which shall not be dissipated for euer ; and his kingdome shall not be deliuered to an other people . Agayne , out of the Prophet Esay A u u Esay 2. Mountaine prepared in the top of Mountaines , and exalted aboue Hills ; And finally , more out of Esay : Her x x Esay 60. Sunne shall not be set , nor her Moone hid . In all which predictions , by the words : Tabernacle , a Kingdome , a Mountaine , her Sunne is vnderstood the Church in the time of the Messias , according to the expositions of all our learned Iewes , and Rabbins , interpreting , and commenting the sayd Prophesies .

The second article , may be the Controuersie touching Free-will , which ( I heare ) is mainteined by the Church of Rome , but denyed by the Protestants ; within which question diuers others ( to wit , of Predestination , Reprobation , the keeping of the Commandements , Works &c. ) are potentially included .

Now how euidently is Free-will prooued out of the writings of the Old Testament ? And first may occurre that of Ecclesiasticus : He y y Cap. 15. 16. 17. hath set Water , and fire before thee ; stretch forth thy hand to whether thou wilt . Before man is life , & death : good , and euill , what liketh him , shal be giuen him , what more conuincing .

D. WHITAKERS .

Micheas . z z D. whit . contra Camprat . 3. thus saithe de loco Ecclesiastici pa●ùm laboro ; nec Arbitrii libertatem credam , quantumuis hic centies affirmet : Coram hominibus esse vitam , et mortem . I make smale accoumpt of that place of Ecclesiasticus ; neither will I beleeue the freedome of Mans will ; although he should affirme it a hundred times ouer , that before man were life , and death .

MICHEAS

I did not expect , M. Doctour , that you should expunge out of the Canon of Scripture any part of the Old Testament , but since you discanon this booke ; I will alleadge other places which were euer acknowledged for the sacred word of God by vs Iewes , and to pretermit that text in Genefis a a Cap. 4. of Caine , hauing liberty ouer sinne ( as a place strangely detorted by some ) and diuers other texts in the old Testament , proouing the same ; What say you of the like passage in Deuteronomy ? b b Cap. 30. I call heauen , and earth in record this day against you , that I haue set before you life , and death &c. choose therefore life . Where you see the very point , of which you are so diffident , is ingeminated , and reinforced . Thus , M. Doctour , you see how much these sacred Testimonies do wound you herein , as also do diuers other passages by me here omitted ( euicting Mans Free-Will ) though all of them haue bene accordingly interpreted by all ancient Iews , and Rabbins , as more fully you may see in Galatinus .

D. WHITAKERS .

Touching your testimonies , produced out of the old Testament , and interpreted in the Papists sence by your owne Iewish Rabbins , as witnesseth Galatinus take this for my answere : I do c c D. Whit l. 9. contra Duraeum p. 818. thus saith of this poynt : Tuum in hac causa Petrum Galatinum minimè prostctò desideramus , nec Haebreorum testimoniis illis indigemus . not regard or neede your Galatinns ; neither do I rely , vpon the testimonies of the Hebrewes . And further knowe you both , that it is as cleare , that the scripture maketh for vs , who are the Professours of the Ghosple ; as it is cleare , that the Sunne shineth in his brightest Meridian : Since we Protestants are (d) the little flocke : we e e 1. Ioan. 2. haue the vnction from the Holy one , and can cry f f Rom. 8. et Galat. 4. Abba Pater ; from all which the Papists are wholy excluded : And this is sufficient to ouerthrow the proudest Romanist breathing .

CARD . BELLARM.

Sweete Iesus , that thinges sacred should be thus prophaned ; and that the words of the scripture should be thus detorted , from the intended sence of the scripture , when all proofes whatsoeuer , from the vninterrupted practise of Gods ( 〈◊〉 ) Luk. 12. Church , from the ioynt , and most frequent testimonies of the Primitiue Fathers , from Ecclestasticall Histories , and from your owne more moderate , and learned Brethrens acknowledgments , are drawne out against you , ( like so many sorts of Artilery , to batter downe the walls of Heresie ) and you not daring , ( and indeed not able ) to indure the assaults of any of these , then are you at the last forced to flee to the bare letter of the scripture , interpreted ( contrary to all the former authorities ) by your owne most partiall priuate spirit .

And the better to lay some pleasing , and faire colours vpon the rugged graine of this your assumed priuile dge , you are not afraid peculiarly to apply to your selues ( as though you were the sole partage of God ) these former words , of the Flock , the Vnction , and Abba Pater . Neither do you rest here , but many of your Coate ( as may be obserued , both out of their sermons , and writings ) much solace , and delight themselues in these following phrases of the scripture ; euer hauing them in their mouths , and vsing them ( with the helpe of the casting vp the white of the eye ) as spels to enchant the simple : Spiritus [ 〈◊〉 ] vbi vult spirat ? h h Gal 3. et 2. Col. 2. Christ crucified ; i i Math. et Mark . 5. sauing (g) Ioan. 3. faith ? the k k 1 Cor. 2. spirituall Maniudgeth allthings , , and is iudged of none ; l l 1. Cor. 2. Animalis homo non percipit ea , quae sunt spiritus Dei ; the m m 1. Pet. 2. sanctisication of the spirit ; the n n 1. Petr. 2. vt supra . reuealing sayth ; finally , ( to omit many such others ) that o o Ioan. 3. which is borne of the spirit , is of the spirit . Thus , as if your selues were wholy spiritualized , and enioyed certaine Rapts , Visions or Enthusiasnes , you vendicate to your selues most ambitiously the former passages of Gods sacred Writ ; only to blanch hereby the deformity of your Cause , and to bleere the vndiscerning eyes of your ignorant , and credulous followers : Such men breath herein an insufferable elation , and height of mind ; I will not say , pride , imposture , and Hipocrisy .

D. WHITAKERS .

My Lord , these are but your iniust aspertions , cast vpon the Innocency of the Professours of the Ghosple ; whose words , not for forme-sake ( as you wrongfully suggest ) but euen out of pure conscience are euer concordant to the illuminations of the spirit , descending from the Lord . But to turne my speaches more particularly to you Micheas . It seemes by many ouerturnes by you already giuen , that you intende to turne Papist . And indeed I much wonder , why your iudgement should rather propend to the Romish faith , then to the cleerelight of the Ghosple . Since in treading your intended course ( besides all other arguments here omitted . ) It seems you little prise the authority of so many worthy Protestant doctors , both in my owne nation of England , and ( to omit other places throughout the most spatious Country of Germany ; Men of extraordinary eminency for learning ; and whose V●tuersities are celebrious throughout all Christendome ; and in theire place , you are content to enthrall your iudgment to the absurd , and sencelesse Positions of the obscure , and illiterated Italians , and Spanyards ; who are not by nature made so maniable , ( as I may say ) as to menage the high Misteries of Christian Religion ; and whose blinde credulity suffereth their minds , to entertaine any superstition , or errour whatsoeuer .

And you must here remember ( Micheas ) that it is much learning , which conduceth a scholler to the Port of a true fayth ; whereas a superficiall measure rather endangereth him , then otherwise ; whose state herein is like to ship-wracke or losse by Sea ; which is often caused through want of Sea , or water , but seldome through abundance thereof : thus the store of that , which occasioneth the hurt , or domage , being had , would preuent the hurt , or domage it selfe . The like I say ) is a schollers case herein . Therefore Micheas , be wary now at the first , with whether side you consociate your selfe , least otherwise your resolution be atteted hereafter with a fruitlesse Repentance : And though the knowledge of thinges to come be ouercast with the darkenes , or Vncertainty ; yet , God grant , I prooue not a true Sybill , deuining of your future misfortune .

MICHEAS .

M. Doctour . I take your admonition charitably ; yet I mustneeds say , you deale strangely herein ; for whereas Man only is capable of Religion , you neuerthelesse would haue me cease to be a man , in the choyce of my Religion . Since you implicitly will me to reiect , and abandon ( so farre forth , as concerns my election of fayth ) all prudence , iudgment , and Reason it selfe ; and to rest vpon the bare letter of the Scripture , interpreted ( contrary to all antiquity ) by my owne priuate ( and perhaps erroneous spirit . And is not this ( I pray you ) to extinguish all light of Reason by which we differ from other Creatures , and agree with immateriall Spirits Since not to vse reason at all , is the property of a beast ; to vse it well , of a celestiall Angell .

Now touching the Parallell , which you make betweene the Protestant , and Catholicke Countries , I must confesse plainely , I do not conspire with you in iudgment therein , your English Protestant Doctours , I purposely passe ouer in silence , and do repute them learned .

Touching the Germans . It is true , that they haue beene , and still are diuers graue schollers of Germany , some Protestants , and other Catholicks ; and infinitly farre more Catholicks , then Protestants , by how much longer time Germany hath bin Catholicke , then Protestant ; against whose honour , and due reputation , farre be it from me to speake . Neuerthelesse if we do with a steddy hand , ballance that Nation , and the custome of it , with Italy , and Spayne , ( to speake nothing of France , which being almost wholy Catholicke , some few places excepted , hath , and doth daily bring forth men of great worth for learning . ) We shall then easily discouer the disproportion , and inequality .

And to giue a little touch of the nature of them all : who knoweth not , that in diuers parts of Germany , the Inhabitants are but certaine liuelesse , and great Colosses , or Statuaes of flesh , and bones ; who make their bodies , but conduits , or strayners for beare , and wine to passe through ; belching out their discourses of Religion in ful carouses ? a maine cloude , which darkneth the light of the vnderstanding . Againe , who can be persuaded , that Fleame , and Haire ( the predominant complexion of that country ) and a loathsome bespitled stoue , can contest in matters of erudition , with the ingenuous melancholy of the Italians , and Spaniards , and their most famous schools , and Academies ? By the help of which actiue humour in them ( for I speake not of that grosse , and dull Melancholly , wherby a Man thinketh , and walketh away his dayes ) the pure , and vnfettred Soule , disorganized , ( as it were ) and vnbodyed for the tyme , doth by an inward reflex glasle it selfe in it owne essence ; and so transcending it accustomed limits , through an internall working of it owne Powers , doth penetrate the most difficult , and abstruse misteries in learning , and religion ; fanning away points , which in their owne properties are to be seuered , and casting , or fagoting together things of one Nature .

But to returne backe to Germany , ( which I will euer acknowledg hath brought forth many most famous , and worthy Men for Learning , Vertue , and Piety , ) your former assertion in ascribing the Protest an t faith to all that Country , cannot be iustifyed . For though I grant , it is on most sides obsest ( as I may say ) with Protestancy ; yet it is certaine , that diuers principall parts thereof are not Protestant , but Catholicke in Religion : As halfe of Switzerland , a part of the Grisons , Voltolyne , the whole Country of Bauaria , the Territories of all the Bishops Electours , the kingdome of Bohemia , besides many Imperiall Citties , and states . Againe , as other parts thereof do ioyntly , and particulerly disclaime from the Roman Religion ; so ( though they all do challenge to themselues the name of Protestants , yet ) do they manteine many irreconcileable differences of Religion enen of the greatest importance ; like seuerall wayes , and Tracts meeting in one common place , and then instantly deuided one from another . This appeareth ( as I am enformed ) most cleare , and euident from the authority of p p In his his●oria Sacramentariae part . altera . Hospinian , a learned German Protestant ; who hath diligently set downe the names of many scores of Bookes , written in great acerbity of style , by one Ger●an Protestant against another German Protestant ; & according nereto it is , that we finde so many kindes of Sectaries , and Hereticks in Germany ; as the Caluinists , the Lutherans , the Anabaptists , the Antitrinitarians , and some others ; though they all be linked , and tyed together in the common , and maine knot of Protestancy .

And thus farre , M. Doctour , of this point , where you see , I haue smale reason to embrace the Protestant Religion , before the Catholicke ; because that is professed throughout Germany , ( as you pretend ) this cheifly restrained to Italy , Spayne , and France .

But let vs returne backe to the generall subject of this your disoutation with my Lord Cardinall I would intreat you M. Doctour , to alleadge some stronger arguments for the change off yeh in the Church of Rome , then hitherto you haue giuen ; which if you do not , then what by reason of the weakenes of your said arguments ( at least in my apprehension , ) and what in respect , that I do not see the proofes Produced by my Lord Cardinal to be sufficiently by you refuted ; I must tell you aforehand , I will embrace the Catholicke Roman Religion , & disauow all Protestancy .

CARD . BLLARM .

M. Doctour , if you can support this your position of Romes change with other more forcing reasons , I would intreate you now to insist further in them . You see I am prepared to giue my best answere to what you can object . If you do not , I must presume , all your forces are already spent ; they indeed being but weake , & resembling that of S. Iude : q q Cap. 1. Cloudes without water , carryed about with windes .

MICHEAS

I pray you M. Doctour , forbeare not to grant to this my desire ; since otherwise I must rest assured , that no more can be sayd ( on your part ) touching this subject .

CARD . BELLARM.

Yeild , M. Doctour , to this Learned Iewes importunity : you know , he hath vndertaken a journey of many hundred miles to this Citty , onely to be resolued in this one Point ; therefore both in charity , and for the preseruing of your owne honour , and reputation , you stand obliged to giue all satisfaction vnto him .

D. WHITAKERS .

Tush , you are both ouer vpbrayding with me ; and seeing I intend no further dispute with men of so irre●ragable dispositions , I first ( for a close ) say to you ( Micheas ) that where you intend to become a Papist ; your change is this , that you leaue that , which was ouce good , ( though now bad ) to embrace that , which is euer bad ; I meane , you leaue Iudaisme , to entertaine Papisme ; and thus you become a new Proselyte , or rather Neophyte , in the schoole of Superstition , & Idolatry .

Now as for you ( Cardinall ) whose name is so celebrious , and so much aduanced in the eares , and mouthes a fall men ; know you , that touching the subiect of this our discourse , I doubt not , but that my arguments , reasons , and Instances aboue alleadged , do in the iudgment of such , as the Lord hath illuminated with the truth of the Ghosple , sufficiently prooue the great changes made of Fayth , and Religion in the Church of Rome , since it first receaued it Faith in the Apostles daies . And if the truth hereof be hid from any , I may then say with the r r 2. Cor. 4. Apostle : It is hid from them , that perish , and are lost . Therefore my irreuocable conclusion is this , that the Church of Rome , was once the true Church , and in fayth pure , and incontaminate , ( as before I acknowledged ) but at this present it is : s s D. whit . contra Camp. rat. 3. caleth the Church of Rome thus : Ecclesia Romae est meretrix Babi●anica ; palmes a ●●a v 〈…〉 res●ctus ; speluca latro●um , via ampla ad interitum perducens ; regnum infe●or●● ; Corpus Antichristi ; E●rori●●●lluu es ; maier ●●gna scortationum ; Ecclesia Impiorum , à qua excedere Christianum quemqne ●portel ; quam Christus miserè perdet aliqud lo , eique sceleru omnium meritas penas imponet . Thus D. Whit. The Whore of Babilon , a branch cut from the true Vine ; adenne of theeues ; the large way leading to destruction ; the kingdome of Hell ; the Body of Antichrist ; a heape , or masse of errours ; a great Mother of whoring ; the Church of the wicked ; out of the which it behoucth euery christian to depart , and which Christ in the end will miserably destroy , & inflict due punishments for all it impieties : and with this , as vnwilling to haue further entercourse , or dispute with any , that subiect themselues to this prophane Church , I end , and bid you both farewell .

CARD . BELLARM.

M. Doctour , I much greiue , to see you thus transported with passion , and to inueigh with such acerbity of words against Christs intemerate spouse ; but I the more easily pardon you , since it is hard ( vpon the sodame ) to cast of a habit which hath beene often engrained in diuers tinctures of many operations : so spleenfull a ●●slike you haue against the Church of Rome ; and indeede it seemes you labour with the disease of those , whose spitle being enuenomed , make them to thinke , that euery thing they take in their mouths , doth taste of venome .

But since it is your minde to breake off so sodainely with vs , I recommend you to the tuition of him , who in an instant is able to turne the most stony hart , into Cor t t 3. Reg. 3. docile , and Cor u u Paraip . 34. emolitum ; and my prayers shal be , that before the time of your death you may haue the grace to implant your selfe , as a branch of that Church , the profession of whose faith may be auaileable to the sauing of your soule .

MICHEAS .

I am beholden vnto you , M. Doctour , for your Paines , and labour taken in this disputation ; howbeit I must confesse , I did expect to haue heard more said for the proofe of the Church of Rome her change in Religion , then as yet is deliuered ; where I see , that your faire promised mountaines ( in the beginning ) do but turne to snow , and after resolue into water ; and that by your finall appealing to the written word alone , you endeauour to set the best face vpon your ouerthrow in this your dispute ; bearing your selfe herein like to souldiers , who are forced to yeild vp their hould , and yet couet to depart with such ceremonies , as are not competent to such , as yeild . Neuerthelesse I commend you , to the protection of the God of Israell , and will pray , that you may ( after this life ) enioy the blessings which are already granted to Abraham , Isa●ck , Iacob , and their Seede .

D. WHITAKERS .

Well , well . Once more I bid you both farewell .

MICHEAS .

My Lord , the doctour ( you see ) is gone ; and indeed I much dislike his bitter eiaculation of reprochfull words against the Church of Rome , little sorting to the presumed grauity of a christian Doctour ; but the matter is not great , since obloquy is but basenes , and the skumme of malice ; and that tongue , which knowes not to honour , cannot dishonour .

But now touching your learned dispute , it hath ( I humbly thanke the Lord of Hoasts , and your charitable endeauour ) wrought in me so much , as that I well know towards what shoare I may anker , and stay my heretofore floating , and vnsetled iudgment .

I see it is already acknowledged , euen by her enemies , that the Church of Rome enioyed in her primitiue times , a true , perfect , and incorrupt faith , as the Apostle doth fully assure vs : I see , that your selfe ( my Lord ) partly by handling the Subiect in grosse ; partly by distribution of times , in which this supposed change is dremed ; to haue happened ; partly by displaying the diuersity of the Protestants Opinions , touching the first comming of Antichrist , who is said to haue beene the first , who wrought this change ; and partly by other forcible arguments , haue demonstratiuely , and irrepliably euicted , that since the Apostles , there hath bene no change of faith , made at all in the Church of Rome . Finally , I see , that the examples of this imaginary change , instanced by the Doctour ( who , as I am aduertised , hath more laboured in the search of this subiect , then any other Protestant ) were so defectiue , a●d maimed , as that they receiue theire full answere , and encounter , both from your former discussed heads ; as also from your Lordship , proouing a greater confessed antiquity of the said Articles , then the instances do vrge ; and lostly , euen from the Doctours liberall acknowledgment ; who plainly confesseth , that he knoweth not the time , when this his change receiued it beginning .

Since then all these points are made so euident , and vndeniable , I grant they haue swaighed , and ouer-ballanced my iudgment , indifferently heretofore to either side enclining ; and haue enduced me indubiously to beleeue , that the fayth of the Church of Rome at this day is , as at the first it was ; to wit , pure , spotlesse , and inchangeable But now seeing no man can be a perfect Christian , except he actually enioy the Sacrament of Baptisme , which is the first dore ( as you Christians teach ) that leadeth a man to the misteries of your Religion ; therefore ( most illustrious Cardinall ) I renouncing my former Iudaisme , and wholy rendring my selfe a true disciple , and seruant of Christ Iesus , ( as acknowledging , that the Redemption of Israell is in him come ) do here prostrate my selfe in desire , to receiue this Sacrament euen from you ; that as your tongue is the cheife instrument ( vnder the highest ) for my beleefe of the Catholicke fayth , so your hand may be the like instrument , for the conferring vpon me the benefit of that sacred Mistery , where by a man is first incorporated , and ( as it were ) matriculated in the bosome of the Catholicke Church .

CARD . BELLARM.

Worthy Micheas . I much ioy , that our discourse hath wrought so happy a resolution in you , as to embrace the Catholicke , and Roman fayth , and giue sole thankes to him therefore , who is higher then the highest Heauen , and yet as low as the Center of the earth , who thus hath vouchsafed ( by his grace ) to descend to the bottome of your harte ; and let the remembeance of your precedent staine in Iudaisme , be a spurre for your greater perfection in the Christian Religion : So shall you resemble that body , which receiueth it greater health , from it former sicknes . And be sure , that euery day you encrease more , and more in Christian vertues : nulla dies sine linea . And takeheed , that you grow not lukewarme in this your resolution , or come to a stand of your present feruour : But remember , that such motions of the soule of this nature , which are stationary , are therein become Retrograde , since here not to go forward , is to go backeward .

And as touching the precedent subiect of our discourse , rest you assured , that the faith of Christ first preached in Rome was neuer yet ( in any one dogmaticall point ) altered since it first plantation . The Church of Rome was ( and doubtlesly is ) the true Church of Christ ; which Church is so farre from broaching change , and innouation , by her intertayning , but any one Errour , as that therefore it is most truly prophesied of it x x Esay 2. Micheas 4. that it is a Mountaine prepared in the top of Mountaines , exalted about Hils . It being indeed seated of such a hight , as that neither the thundring fragors of the persecutours cruelty , nor the windes of Hereticks speaches , and endeauours , were euer able to reach so high , as by introducing nouelty in fayth to disioynt the setled frame thereof : so true is the saying of that holy father ( whose fire of zeale brought him to the flames of Martyrdome ) y y Cy●● l. de V●●a●● Ecclesiae posi 〈◊〉 ilium . adulterari non potest sponsa Christi incorrupta est , et pudica . Now touching your baptizing Micheas wee will take such present course therein , as shall giue you all full satisfaction .

MICHEAS

I humbly thanke your Lordship . But I am further here to aduertise your Lordship , that if so it might be thought lawfull , and conuenient , that he , who heretofore denyed Christ , might after be permitted to be a dispenser of the Mysteries , and treasure of Christ ; I could then greatly wish , that after I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme at your hands , I might be aduanced to the holy Order of Preisthood ; that so now ( in the last scene of my old age ) my endeauours of this nature ( hereafter to be attempted in the Catholicke Church ) might partly redeeme my former mispent labours in the Iewish Synagogue : My single course of life , and vnmarryed state best sorteth thereto , and my owne desire is most vehement , and forcing . And indeed I am persuaded , that the profitable talents of a good Christian ought ) in part to resemble the engendring riches of an vsurer , who breeds vpon siluer , and whose z z Tocò● in greeke si●nifieth Vsury , coming of the verb Tictò parto ; because siluer ( put to vsury ) b●etteth siluer . Tocòs , or interest money is no sooner begotten , then it begetteth : So should it fare with a man of sufficiency , deuoted to Christ his seruice ; who being become of late his adopted sonne , should himselfe instantly labour to be a parent ( vnder Christ ) of other such like sonnes . O how ineffable a comfort it is , when a man may truly ( yet modestly ) say through his spirituall trauell , fruitfully employed towardes others ( as your Lordship may now of me ) . a a 1. Cor. 4. In Christo ●esu per Euangelium vos genui ? And how truly honourable is that profession of life , which consisteth in the negotiation , and trafiking ( as I may say ) of saluation of soules ? b b Zach. 14. Et ero mercator in domo Domini Exercituum .

CARD . BELLARM.

I Commend much your great feruour herein : But yet , I hold it more secure to pause for a time , to see , whether this your resolution touching Priest hood ( being , but the Primitiae of your spirit ) be steddy , and permanent , or whether hereafter it may alter , and wauer . And if so ; then would it follow , that your present taking of that course , would be attended on with an ouer late repentance .

And you must knowe , that the wings of a new conuerted soule to Christ , do commonly at the first performe their speediest flight : c c Psalm . 54 Quis dabit mihi pennas , sicut Columbae , et volabo ? Which for the most part after ( through some default , or other ) do begin to lagg , and to make certaine plaines . For though these first Motions of the soule in the seruice of God , be neither Naturall , nor Violent ( since they descend only from him , to whome by prayer we ascend ) yet they pertake much of that Motion , which is violent ; they being ordinarily more strong , & feruerous in the beginning , & more remisse towards the end : and indeed experience teacheth vs , that a Precipitiòus , and ouer hasty deuotion , is sometimes dangerous . But if this your good desire do hereafter perseuere , and continew , I shall be ready ( within conuenient time ) to giue you my best assistance therein .

MICHEAS

My Lord , I make smale doubt , that this my resolution ( through the ayde of him , who first did inspire it into my soule ) will remayne stable , and vnchangeable . Therefore your Lordship may further hereby take notice , that my intention is to spend his short remnant of my yeares , in diligently studying the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks , & the Protestants , to attempt ( as afore I intimated ) to plant that relilgion in others , which you haue already planted in me .

I further am resolued , to take a view ( if my aged & feeble body will suffer me ) of the most famous Catholicke , & Protestant Vniuersities in Christendome ; and particularly I haue ( I confesse ) a thirsting desire to see the two ( so much celebrated ) Vniuersities of England ( of the one of which , I here D. Whitakers is a member ) places , of which Fame her selfe hath sounded her trumpet , in the highest Note . Now ( my good Lord ) in regard of these my determinations , and of my late embracing of the present Roman Roligion , ( the noyse , and bruite whereof will , no doubt , spread it selfe at large . ) I do probably presage , that I shall meete with diuers Protestants , who hearing of my election of Religion , will perhaps earnestly solicite me , for my change to them ; and making many violent incursions , vpon my yet weake , and vnfortified iudgment , will endeauour to demollish , and lay leuell with the ground , whatsoeuer your Lordspip ( by your former learned discourse ) hath already built in my soule .

Therefore , that I may sit close , and immooueable in this my choyce of faith now made , I would intreate your Lordship to instruct me , how I may best guide occasion in discourse with such Men ; that so they may not be able to winne ground vpon my weakenesse . For though I can ( in part ) discerne the sufficiency of other men ; yet reflecting vpon my owne imbecillity , I with all discouer the want of their like sufficiency in my selfe : I herein resembling the outward sence , which aswell iudgeth of the absence , as of the presence of it Obiect . Therefore ( good my Lord ) initiate me a litle , in this Mistery .

CARD . BELLARM.

Mieheas , I like well of this your Promethian , and forecasting wisedome . And I will to my best ability & powre , satisfie this your desire . And whereas you say , you determine to see the Vniuersities of England , I approoue well thereof ; for I haue often heard , that ( speaking of the Materials of an Vniuersity ) they are the goodliest in all Christendome ; I meane for magnificence , and statelines of their Colledges ; for op●lency , and great reuenewes belonging to them ; and for their pleasing , and sweete scituations .

If you go to Oxford , you shall ( in all likelyhood ) fall in acquaintance with one D. Reynolds ; a Man ( as I am enformed ) not of a harsh , and fiery ( as his Brother D. Whitakers is ) but of a temperate comportment ; one , of whom the whole Vniuersity doth highly preiudge ; and indeede not vndeseruedly , he being ( his Religion excepted ) endued with many good parts of literature ; and who hath heretofore bene my d d D. R●ynl . did write against Card. Bellurmine in the Controuersie of Images Antagonist in some of his Books , written against some parcels of my Controuersies . But now to descend to your last request to me , seeing then you are not , as yet , conuersant in Points of faith , controuerted betweene the Catholicke , and Protestant ; My maine , and first aduise is , that in all points of faith ( of which any dispute may hereafter occurre betweene you , and any Protestant ) you finally do rest in the authority of Christs visible Church , and the cheife heade thereof ; assuring your selfe , that although Simon the fisher , was not able to determine matters of faith ; yet that Simon Peter , and his successours ( assisted with competency of meanes ) haue euer an impeachable soueraignty granted to them , and a delegated authority from Christ himselfe , for the absolute discussing , & deciding of all Articles in faith , and Religion : e e Math. 16. Tues Petrus , et super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam , et portae Inferi non praeualebunt aduersus eam .

Expect to meete with men , who are witty , and of good talents , and who well know , how to spread their Netts to catch the vnprouided . And whose streame of discourse ( for diuers of them are of great elocution ) for the most part runneth , in their accustomed chanels of pleasing insinuations , persuading to their faith , and a violent ouercharge of gauleful words , against the present Roman faith .

Touching their allegation of authorities ( either deuine or humane ) credit them no further , then your owne eyes will giue you leaue ; for diuers of them vse strange impostures therein , though they warrant such their proceedings with greate confidency of earnest asseuerations : f f Ieremy 5. quod si etiam viuit Dominus , dixerint , et hoc falsò iurabunt .

Make choice ( if so it lieth in your power ) rather to dispute with Protestant Doctours , and Ministers , who are vnmarried , then married ; since the secret iudgments of these later may well be ouercome by force of argument ; but to persuade the wills to follow their iudgments ( in regard of theire clog of wife , children , and worldly preferments ) is more then a Herculean labour . And indeed , I confesse , I do much commiserate the state of diuers of them , who ( being otherwise of great wits , and might haue beene much seruiceable in the Church of God ) by being inchanted with a little Redd , and White , and a well proportioned face , do in their yonger daies tye themselues ( by marriage ) to the world , & to the attending afflictions thereof : ô that the soule of man ( not subiect to dimension ) should be thus enthralled to Creatures , for their hauing a pleasing dimension . But to proceede

You shall finde many of them of great reading ; yet of reading sorting rather to contradict , and quarrell , then to instruct : but diuers of their coate are content ( through their owne want ) to retaile , by help of Indexes , and such other meanes , their owne more learned Brethrens writings , & labours . And many of these ( through their owne ignorance ) thinke they do well , and that they professe a true faith ; wheras the more learned of them ( through their reading , and study ) must ( in their owne soules ) of necessity be conscious , & guilty of the falsehood of their owne Cause ; though the present , and temporary respects of riches , and preferments are so potent , and forcible with them , as that they c●nnot ( or at least they will not ) be induced to follow the Dictamen , and resolution of their owne Iudgments .

If the subiect of your discourse be about the abstruse Misteries of the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist , or of some other such sublime points ; you shall hardly draw them to relinquish naturall reason ( so deepely are they immersed therein , ) it being indeed their Pillar of Non plus vltra : Thus , where other Christians enioy two eyes ; the one of Faith , the other of Nature : These Polyphemi ( shutting that of Faith ) do looke vpon the Articles of Religion , only with this of Nature .

Choose rather to dispute , touching matter of fact ( with in which may be included the proofe of the truth , or falshood of the Protestant Religion ) then touching any dogmaticall point of faith , and doctrine , as receiuing it proofe from the scripture . This I speake not , but that the scripture makes most clearly for the Catholicks , and against , the Protestants : But because your aduersary in dispute will euer cauill at your exposition of Scripture ; reducing it in the end ( against all antiquity of Fathers , and tradition of the Church ) to the interpretation of his owne priuate , and reuealing spirit ; and so your labour would prooue , commonly , to be lost thereby . Now in matter of fact , your Aduersary is forced to stand to the authorities , deduced from Ecclesiasticall Histories , and other such humane proofes ; and therfore he must either shape a pro bable ( if not a sufficient ) answere to them , which he neuer can do ; they wholy making against him , euen by his owne learned brethrens Confessions ; or els he must rest silent . And this is the reason , why the Protestants are so loath to dispute of the Church ; since this Question comprehendeth in it selfe , diuers points of fact ; as of it continuall Visibility , Antiquity , Succession , Ordination , and Mission of Pastours &c. All which Questions receiue their proofes from particuler Instances , warranted by shewing the particular times , persons , and other circumstances , concerning matter of fact .

An other reason of this your choyse of your subiect of dispute may be ; in that few Men ( and those only schollers ) can truly censure of the exposition of scripture ; whereas almost euery illiterate man ( enioying but a reasonable capacity ) is able sufficiently to iudge of the testimonies , produced to prooue , or disprooue matter of fact . And here I would wish you , that in your dispute you labour , to haue some Catholicks present ; for where all the Auditory are Protestants , certaine it is , that they will voice it against you , howsoeuer the disputation may otherwise go . But because these obseruations are ouer generall ; I will giue you here some more particuler ; since most of them may be restrained to certain particular passages , which may occurre betweene you , and your disputant Aduersary .

1. First then , let the true state of the Question ( discussed of ) be set downe , and acknowledged on both sides ; in regard of the often willfully mistaken doctrine of the Catholicks . That done , reduce the question disputed of , to as few branches as you can ; since multiplicity of Points is more subiect to confusion , and forgetfulnes , and giueth greater liberty to extrauagant digressions . And will your Aduersary to auoid all such speaches , but what are pertinent to the point handled . And if he will needs wander in his discourses , then you may reduce the force of them ( by way of Enthimem , or syllogisme ) to the point disputed of ; that so both your Aduersary , and the Auditory may see , how roueingly these his speaches were vsed , and how lowsely they , and the question then handled do hang together .

2. If your Aduersary vndertake the part of the Answerer , suffer not him to oppose ; though he labour to do so , to free himselfe from answering , when he shall see himselfe plunged . In like sort , if he vndergo the part of the Opponent , tye him precisely euer to oppose ; which Scene perhaps ( he being brought to a Non plus ) would sleyly transferre vpon you . And thus be sure . that eich of you keepe your chosen station .

3. If your disputant will vaunt , that he will prooue all by scripture onely ( as most of them giue it out , they will ) then force him to draw all his premisses ( I meane , both his Propositions , if so they should be reduced to a forme of argument ) from the scripture alone ; of which Methode ( within two , or three arguments ) he is most certaine to faile . And if he take either of his Propositions from humane authority , or from Naturall Reason ; you may tell him , he leaueth his vndertaken Taske ; to wit , to prooue from Scripture alone , and consequently , you may deny the force of his argument , though otherwise logicall if it were reduced to forme .

4. In your proofs drawne from Scripture , labour to be much practised in the Protestants Translations of it ; of which infinite places make for the Catholicks Cause , euen as the Scripture is translated by the Protestants . This course farre gauleth them more , then if you insisted in the Catholicke translation .

5. If you dispute with any by writing , or enterchange of letters ( this being but a mute Aduocate of the minde ) write nothing but matter , and with as much compendiousnes as the subiect will beare , without any verball excursions , or digressions ; since this proceeding will force your Aduersary to reply ( if he will reply at all ) to the matter . For otherwise leauing the point , which is cheifly to be handled , he will shape a reply to other lesse necessary stuffe deliuered by you ; and then his Reply must passe abroad ( by the help of many partiall tongues ) for a full answere to your whole discourse .

6. In like sort , if you attempt to charge a Protestant Authour with lyes , or Corruptions in their writings ( with which many of their bookes are euen loaded ) rather insist in a few , ( and those manifest , and vnanswereable ) then in a greater number ; seeing if your Aduersary can make show , to salue but three , or foure of a greater number ( which the more easily he may do , by how much the number of the instanced falsifications is greater ) the supposed answereing of them ( chosen , & picked out by him ) must seeme to disgrace all the rest vrged by you .

7. If you intend to bring , and obiect any wicked , and vnwarrantable sayings , especially out of Luther , either against the Blessed Trinity , or about his acknowledged lust , & sensuality , be carefull to note the Editions of the Booke , wherein such his sayings are to be found . For in the later Editions of his workes , many such sentences are for very shame left out , and vnprinted . And hereupon there are diuers Protestants , who vtterly deny , that euer any such words were written by him .

8. Be skilfull in discouering ( though not in practising ) Sophistry , that so you may the better loose , and vntie e●●e Protestants knots of deceipte ; diuers of them being most expert in all kinds of Paralogisme . And particulerly takeheede of that grosse , and vulger sleight ( vnworthy a schollar ) drawne from the particuler to the Vniuersall , much practised by our Aduersaries . For according hereto , if they can finde any Father , or any moderne Catholicke Authour , to mantaine ( though therein contradicted by other Fathers , and Catholicks ) but one , or two Points of Protestancy ; they blush not to auerre , that the said Father , or Catholicke writer , are entire Protestants in all points .

9. If your Aduersary should produce some supposed disagreements in doctrine among Catholicks ; you may reply , that their differences rest only in some Circumstances of a Catholicke , Conclusion , and not in the Conclusion it selfe . And if he produce any presumed Catholicke denying the Conclusion it selfe of the doctrine ; then are you to tell him that such a man ceaseth by this his deniall ( vnlesse ignorance , or inconsideration excuse ) to be a member of the Catholicke Church ; & therefore , this his deniall doth not preiudice the Catholicke Faith ; this being contrary to the Protestants proceeding ; who wittingly mantaining contrary conclusions of Faith , do remaine neuerthelesse ( by the iudgments of many of them ) good brethren , and true Professours of the Ghosple .

10. If your Aduersary contest , that all the writinges , and memory of Protestants in former ages were extinguished by the Popes of the said , and after succeeding ages ; you may show , how absurd this assertion is . And the reason hereof is , in that the Popes of those times could not presage , that Protestancy should ( on these our times ) sway more , then any other Heresies condemned in their very times ; which other Heresies remaine yet registred euen to this day , by the acknowledgment of of the Protestants ; And therefore by the same reason , Protestancy ( supposing it to be professed in those former times , ) should also haue remained recorded , either in the writings of the Protestants themselues , ( if euer any such were or else by the censure , and condemnation of them , by the Popes of those daies .

11. Whereas you may alleadge diuers acknowledged Heresies , both in the iudgment of Protestant , and Catholicke ; out of the bookes concerning diuers persons , who beleeued some few points of Protestancy , recorded in the said bookes ; ( here I speake of Waldo , Wicliff , &c. ) Now if here your Aduersary disputant doth auouch ( as many Protestants do ) that these Heresies were falsly obtruded vpon the then said Protestants by their Enemies ; you may here reply , that to affirme this , is against the force of all reason . For seeing the said bookes do indifferently make mention both of the Protestant Opinions , and of the other Heresies defended by the same men ; either the said Bookes are to be beleeued in both , or to be reiected in both : If the first , then it is certaine , that those men beleeued those acknowledged Heresies , and then they can not be instanced for perfect Protestants : If the later ; then the said Bookes are not of any sufficient authority to prooue , that there were any Protestants in those ages .

12. There is great disparity betweene Protestants confessing some points , which do aduantage the Catholicke faith ( as for examples , that the Primitiue Fathers were Papists in all cheife Articles of Papistry , as the Aduersary vse to tearme it ) and other Protestants , impugning the said Confessions . Seeing the first men speake against themselues , and their Cause ; which ( they being learned ) would neuer do , but as conuinced with the euidency of the truth therein ; whereas these other do deny the Confessions of their owne Brethren , in behalfe of their owne Religion ; and so such their denialls are to be reputed more partiall . In like sort , there is great difference to be made , betweene Protestants speaking against themselues , and yet beleeuing the Protestant doctrine , and conclusion , touching some Circumstances , whereof their said Confessions are ; and betweene some others , who afore were Catholickes , and after do defend some one point , or other of Protestancy . Since these later men do not speake against themselues , but in defence of such their Protestant doctrine , then newly entertained by them , and consequently , in defence of their owne opinions : and therefore such their authorities are not to ballance equally , with the Confessions of the former Protestants .

13. If your Aduersary doth produce any authorities ; either from the Popes Decrees , or from Generall Councels ; ( by the which the Antiquity of some Catholicke Article may be impugned ) . Be carefull , 1. That particular Councels , or Councels Scismaticall ( not warranted by the Popes authority ) be not obtruded vpon you , for true Generall Councells .

2. That the point vrged out of the Councell doth concerne Doctrine of faith , and not matter of fact ; touching which later point , it is granted a Councell may alter it Decrees , vpon better , and later informations . 3. That the Canon , or Decree poduced out of the Councell , do immediately concerne the doctrine it selfe of some Article of faith , ( then supposed to be brought in ) and not the name only to be imposed vpon the said doctrine afore beleeued ; as it happened in the Councell of Lateran , touching the word Transubstantiation .

4. That the Decree of the Pope , or Councell , deliuered only touching the better execution of some Catholicke point , afore partly neglected ( as for example , touching Confession , the vnmarried life of the Cleargy , or keeping set times of fasting , and the like ) be not fraudulently extended ( by your Aduersary ) to the first institution of the said doctrine ; he so suggesting a more reformed execution , or practise of the Catholicke doctrine , for the first institution of it .

14. If your Aduersary produce the ancient Fathers in defence of Protestancy , first aske him , if he will inappealeably stand to their iudgments ? If he will ; then vrge the Protestants ( whose bookes are most plentifull in such like accusations ) charging them , as Patrons of Papistry . If he will not stand to their authority ; then demand ; to what end he doth alleadg them ? And further let him know , that it is the ioynt consent of Fathers ( without contradiction of other Orthodoxall Fathers ) which the Catholicks do admit . Where some Protestants obiect , that diuers points of the Cathoclike Religion were condemned in some Hereticks , by the Orthodoxall Fathers of the Primitiue Church ; you may truely reply hereto , that the Article , or conclusion it selfe , of any Catholick point , was not condemned by them ; but only some absurd , and wicked Circumstance ( annexed by the said Hereticks to the Article ) was condemned by the Fathers . Thus the Catholicks are charged by D. Fulke . and others , to borrow the praying to Saints , and Angels from certaine old Heretickes , condemned by Epiphanius for this doctrine . Whereas those Heretickes praied both , to good , & bad Angels , & to those , who were falsly tearmed Angels ; accoumpting them as Patrons of their wickednes . And for these Circumstances only Epiphanius registreth them for Hereticks . This sleight is much practised by diuers Protestants in certaine points of the Catholicke Religion . Therefore be sure to see the words of the Fathers so condemning them , in the Fathers owne bookes ; which if you do , you shall discouer wonderfull forgery , and deprauation of the said Fathers writings , vsed by the Protestants .

16. If it be vrged , that the deniall of Free-will ( for example , and so of other Articles of Protestancy ) was taught by Manichaeus ; and consequently , that the Protestant faith is as ancient , as those primitiue times . Reply , that this particuler Hereticke , or that particuler Sectary did teach , but one , or other Protestant Article , and were instantly written against for such their Innouation , the said Men being Catholicke in other points . And therefore you may truly auerre , that the vrging of such Examples are wholy impertinent , either for the proofe of the antiquity of Protestancy , or for the visibility of the Protestant Church in those daies .

17. When you produce the ancient Fathers against the Protestants , their common shift is to make an opposition betweene the Scripture , and the Fathers ; mantaining that to follow the Fathers iudgment in faith , is to reiect , and abandon the Scripture ; and that themselues are to be pardoned for preferring the Scripture before the Fathers . But to this you may answere , that seeing the Fathers do admit , and reuerence the scripture in as high a degree , as the Protestants do ; The maine question , and doubt here is onely , whether the Fathers , or the Protestants do more truly expound the Scripture .

18. When a Catholicke doth alleadge the Fathers , the Protestants do seeke to lessen their authorities seuerall waies , as by obiecting either another Father , or the said Father in another place against himselfe , so falsly traducing him , as a mantainer of contrary Doctrines . In like sort , by obiecting some confessed errour of the Father produced by the Catholicke ; which cheifly houldeth in Origen , Tertullian , and Cyprian . But to this last point , you may answere ; that you produce the Fathers in such Catholicke Points , touching the which , they were not written against by any other Father ; and therefore their authority therein is of force ; since it is presumed hereby , that all the other Fathers ( and consequently all the Church of God ) agreed with them therein ; whereas their confessed errours were impugned by Augustine , Hierom , Epiphanius , and others .

19. Do not admit this , as good : some Fathers do interpret this , or that text of scripture figuratiuely ; therefore the said Fathers teach , that it is not to be expounded literally . This is a meere sophisme ; for seeing diuers texts of scripture are capable ( besides the literall ) of allegoricall sences ( as all the learned Catholicks , and Protestants do acknowledg ) therfore the figuratiue sence doth not exclude , but rather often presupposeth , and admitteth the literall . According hereto , S. Augustine passing ouer ( as presumed , and granted ) the literall sence of those wordes : qui bibit meum Sanguinem &c. allegorically expoundeth in this sort ; h h Ioan. 6. bibere Sanguinem Christi ; est crederein Christum .

20. You are here also to conceiue , that diuers Protestants do call our Catholicke Doctrines , as they are defended by vs , Superstition , Idolatry , Blasphemies ; but as they are taught by the ancient Fathers , they mildly stile the very same Doctrines , Errours , Scarrs , Blemishes . The reason of the different appellation of them in the Fathers is , in that they would not seeme to breake with the Fathers , or to be of a seuerall Church from them ; whereas they call the same Doctrines in vs , by the former aggrauating tearmes ; to imply to their followers , that we Catholicks ( as supposed by them to professe Superstition , Idolatry , Blasphemies , &c. ) are not of the true Church of Christ . By this you may discerne the Protestants , both Malice , and Subtilty .

21. You must be wary to obserue , and distinguish , when a Father writeth doctrinally , and sententially ( ex professo ) of any subiect , from that , which he writeth Antagonisticè , and in heate of dispute with his Aduersary , touching the said subiect : since in the first kind his positiue , and true iudgment is clearely set downe , and for such his authority ( thence deduced ) is to be embraced : Whereas in this later kind , he often disputeth , ad personam ; and so some-times ( either through vehemency , or for his greater present aduantage ) writeth more loosely , and not so reseruedly , as the Catholicke doctrine in that point requireth . According hereto , some of the ancient Fathers , writing against Pelagius , and his sect ( who ascribed ouer much to Free-will ) did not ( perhaps ) so fully dispute in defence of the Catholicke Doctrine of Free-will , as they might haue donne . This course they tooke ( of which the Protestants make aduantage ) that thereby they might the more easily conuince their Aduersaries Heresy , resting so much on the contrary side .

22. In like sort , the Fathers some-times perhaps in a Rhetoricall , and amplifying manner , do vse certaine transcendent speaches ( as also some more moderne Catholicks haue donne ) in praise of our Blessed Lady , or in honour of the Crosse , or the like ; then being taken literally , can well be iustified . But they were the more bold to do , because they ( as then hauing no Aduersaries to their Catholicke Doctrines in those points ) might rest assured , that their wordes would be taken in that pious sence ( and no other ) wherein they deliuered them . But if they had foreknowne , that there would haue come in after times such sectaries , who would so rigidly , and literally insist in all such their sentences , perusing euery word , and sillable of them , and racking them to the worst construction ( as now the Protestants do ) they would ) no doubt ) haue writen more reseruedly , and cautelously of those points . But little did they thinke , that any succeeding Men , ( professing themselues to be Christians ) would euer so vncharitably ) haue detorted their words , from their intended sence .

23. Touching the Notes of the Church of Christ , prescribed by the Protestants ; which are the true preaching of the Word , and a right administration of the Sacraments ; you must here know , that these Notes are set downe by them for two respects , and with great subtilty : The one is , to auoid our Catholicke Notes of Antiquity , Visibility , Succession &c. which notes they foresee , cannot be iustified of their owne Protestant Church : The second , and more principall reason of this their proceeding is , that here by they may reduce the proouing , which is the true Church , to their owne priuate spirit , and iudgment ; because themselues will be Vmpiers , and Iudges ( not admitting any other mens censures therein ) when , and where the Word is truly preached , and the Sacraments rightly administred : So subtle ( you see ) is Nouelisme in Faith for the patronage of it selfe .

24. Striue to be more conuersant , and ready ( if so your oportunity , and occasions will not suffer you , to be ready in all ) in such Controuersies , which cons●● in practise ; as about Praying to Saints , Indulgences , Worshiping of Images , Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament , Communion vnder one kinde &c. then in others , which rest only in beleife , and speculation . Seeing the vulgar Protestant with whom you are ( in likelihood ) much to conuerse , soonest taketh exception against those former , and will expect greater satisfaction in them ; because they being subicct to the sense , ( in regard of their daily practise ) come nearest within their Capacity ; and are by them often charged ( through the calumny of their cheife Maisters , abusing their credulity ) with many supposed abuses .

25. Touching those Articles , or Controuersies , which chiefly rest in speculation , be well traueled in the question touching the Infallibility of Gods Chureh , ●s also in that other question , that the Scripture ( without the Churches attestation ) cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture ; and that all points of beleife do not receiue their proofe from scripture alone ; seeing that these two potentially include in themselues most of all other Controuersies . Also be most ready in the question touching the continuall Visibility of the Protestants Church ( seeing the Protestants must grant their Church to haue beene euer visible , if they will auerre it to be the true Church of Christ , ) & , Micheas , if euer you dispute with any Protestant , I could wish , if so the liberty of choicely on your part , & that you afore-hand well furnish , & arme your selfe to that end ; that you would make election to dispute of this point ; for if you be well experienced therein , you shall mightely confound your Aduersary ; he not being able ( euen by his owne Brethrens confessions ) to instance ( for many Centuries , and ages together ) so much , as the being of one Protestant .

Thus farre ( Micheas ) of such obseruations breifly and plainly deliuered , without applying most of them to any particular subiect ; wherewith it is conuenient you should be instructed , before you enter into any conflict with any Protestant , diuers others may be adioyned to these , but that I am afraid , I should tyre you with a wearisome repetition of them ; and your owne experience hereafter will best direct you in such animaduersions .

MICHEAS

My Lord Cardinall I do much prise these your instructions ; most of them seruing , as so many loopeholes , through which we may espy the subtle approach of the Enemy ; or rather as so many Counter-murs to withstand his secret molitions (b) Vi●g . A●nea● . and attempts : (i) Dolus an virtus , quis in hoste requirat ? And though these your premonitions ( or rather premunitions , since by them I may be fore-armed against the assault of the aduersary ) be now but generally set downe , without any particular application ( as your Lordship saith ) yet hereafter I will incorporate them in such points , or passages of dispute , as iust oportunity , and occasion may present .

And here according to your Lordships desire , I will labour in those Controuersies , consisting cheifly in practise , by you specified ; and I will also most painefully , and elaborately furnish my selfe with reading , touching the question of the visibility of the Protestants Church . The which question , I do promise your Lordship ( according as you wished me ) shal be the subiect of my next discourse , whensoeuer my fortune shal be to contest with any learned Protestant ; for this point being well , and throughly prosecuted , I hold it most choaking , and mortall to the aduersary , as your Lordship aboue did affirme .

But now my Lord , the time is farre spent , and I feare , I haue detained you ouer long in these your learned discourses . And now I confesse , I thinke it long , till I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme , which shall Wash away in me all spots , and filth , both of Originall , and Actuall sinne ; referring my taking of Priesthood to such oportunity , and season , as you in your owne wisedome shall hold conuenient .

CARD . BELLARM.

Micheas , as concerning your intended implanting in Christs Church by Baptisme , your desire thereof I much commend ; seeing in things of this nature , to will to do well , is a doing well . For your actuall Baptising ( whereby you shall cease to be descended , from the loines of your first Parent ) know you , that we are at this present in that Holy-weeke , in which the Redeemer of the world was by the Iewes crucified ; a time ( among some other seasons of the yeare ) appointed by the Catholicke Church , for the baptising of such Iewes , as through Gods infinite Grace are conuerted to the Faith of Christ . If therefore it please you , to morrow to repaire to the Cathedrall Church of this Citty , you shall finde me there , prepared to minister to you ( according to your request ) the Sacrament of Baptisme , with all it Christian rites , and Ceremonies . And after in conuenient , and fitting time , I will conferre vpon you the holy Order of Priesthood .

MICHEAS .

My Lord Cardinall , till then I will take leaue of you , acknowledging my selfe to be your Lordships in all obseruancy ; and wil be ready ( with the assistance of the highest ) at the place appointed , to expect that happy houre .

FINIS . GOD SAVE THE KING .

THE CONCLVSION

HEre ( Learned Academians ) endeth our first Dialogue ; where you are to suppose , that according to their former intended meetinge the next day , Micheas is Baptised by the Cardinall ( who being thereby , in a a Tertullian de Pudicitia Christum tinctus , induit Christum ) and within some short time after , he receiueth the holy function of Priesthood , by the imposition of the hands of the said Cardinall . What is feigned to haue happened to Micheas after his departure from the Cardinall , the two subsequent Dialogues will discouer

Touching the precedent subiect of this first Dialogue if it please you but to fanne , and seuer away , what is fictitious , and imaginary therein , from what is true , and warranted with many proofs , you shall finde , ( I hope ) that the arguments produced , are of sufficient weight , to sway any mans iudgments , ( not drunken with preiudice of Opinion ) to acknowledg that to this day , there was neuer any change yet made in the Church of Rome , so much , as in one dogmaticall Article of Faith , or point of importance , ( which is the matter here in question ) and that therefore the Protestants inconsiderate malignity is hereby the more discouered ; who so frequently traduce , and conuiciate that Church , as the whore of Babilon ; which we Catholicks do vndertake ( euen with an expugnable confidence ) to Prooue , that she is the intemerate , and chaste spouse of Christ : so certaine it is , that these Men b b Act. 13. cease not to peruert the straight waies of the Lord .

Now my Conclusion ( Worthy Men ) shall chiefly rest in a true , and reall retorting of that vpon our Aduersaries which doctour Whitakers , and other Protestants do falsly obtrude vpon our Church : so shall the accuser rest chargeable with the accusation , and the accused become assoiled , and freed . My meaning is , I will briefly here shew , that it is the Protestant Faith , and Religion , which hath made a manifest change , and alteration from that Faith , and Religion , which the Church of Rome sucked from the breasts of her first instructours ; howsoeuer the Protestants labour ( by all wit , and other meanes ) to cloath their Innouations in the faire attire of a reuerend and regardable Priority of being .

I will insist in the chiefest articles mantained at this present by the Protestants , and will set downe the maine circumstances , necessarily attending ( as aboue is made playne ) euery change in Religion : To wit , the Doctrine , which is newly broached ; the Person , by whom it was first taught ; the Imposition of a new name ( for the most part ) vpon the beleeuers of that doctrine , drawne from the first Authour ; in whom all his followers were originally contained , as the branches of a tree are vertually in the roote : The time , when euery such Protestant Article was first anciently introduced : The Persons by whom those Articles were at their first beginning impugned : And finally the Church , or visible society of Christians , out of which ( as more ancient ) those sectaries ( by their first forging of their said points of Protestancy ) did depart , and go from .

And to beginne . The Doctrine of the Churches Inuisibility was first taught by Donatus , and of him his followers were called Donatists . This Heresie at it first rising , was written against , and impugned by S. c c Lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae c. 12. Augustine . In like sort , the Donatists , were the first , who did ouerthrow Altars , and cast out holy Oile ; but contradicted herein by d d Lib. 2. et 6. contra Pa 〈…〉 . Optatus and e e Lib. 2 contra Petilia●● rat. 51. et 61. Augustine . The deniall of praier for the dead ( and consequently the deniall of the doctrine of Purgatory ) as also the abrogation of all set Fasts , were first brought in by Aerius : his followers , for such his doctrines stiled : Aëriani . These his false doctrines were recorded , and contradicted , by S. f f Haeres . c. 33. Augustine . The deniall of Free-will was set on foote by Manicheus ; from him are descended the Manichees . His doctrine herein was writen against by g g In ●raesat . dialogorum contra Pelagianos . S. Hierome , and h h Haeres . cap. 46. S. Augustine .

The deniall of single , and vnmarried life was first taught by Vigilantius . He also taught , that the praiers of the dead are not heard for the liuing ; and consequently he taught , that we ought not to pray to Saints . His schollers tearmed Vigilantinians . His doctrines impugned by i i Lib. contra Vigilanti●● c. 2. Hierome .

Equallity of Works was first taught by Iouinian ; He also broached the Heresie , that our Blessed Lady in the birth of our Sauiour lost her Virginity . His followers , Iouiniani . His Heresies exploded by k k Lib. 1. et 2. contra Iouinianum . Hierome , and l l Lib. de haeres . c. 82. Augustine .

The doctrine , that all Sinnes are mortall , was first stamped by Pelagius . He further taught , that the Baptisme of children was not necessary . The firsts of these his doctrines was writen against by m m Lib. 2. cotra Pelagianum . S. Hierome ; the second by n n In Re scripto ad M●l●ui●●●●● Concilium post 〈◊〉 . Innocentius , and o o Hae●● 88. S. Augustine , his followers Pelagiani .

The deniall of all worship due to the Images of Christ , and his Saints , was first introduced by Zena●as Persa ; who is therefore recorded , and contradicted by p p Lib. 26. cap. 27. Nic●phorus .

The doctrine that God is the authour of Sinne ( which necessarily followeth , by taking away Free-will from Man ) was first sowed by Simon Magus ; but impugned by q q Aduers . haeres . post med. Vincentius ●yrinensis .

The deniall of enioyned times of Pennance was first taught by the Hereticks called Audiani , and contradicted by r r L. 4. ●●er . 〈…〉 . Theodoret. The deniall of the Possibility of keeping the Commendeme●s was first broached by certaine Hereticks in S. Hieroms time and impugned by s s In explanat . symboli ad Damasum . Hierom and t t De temporeserm . 91 Augusti●● .

The deniall of all reuerent estimation particulerly to the Crosse , or Crucifix of Christ , was first inuented by Probianus ; and he recorded , and reprehended therefore , in u u Lib 2. cap. 19. the Tripartite History .

The deniall of the Reall Presence was first mantained , by certaine Hereticks in S. Ignatius his time , as x x Dialog. 3. Theodoret relateth , and condemneth them for the same .

The deniall of Priests hauing power to remit sinnes , was first iustified by Nouatus ; his schollers were called Nouatiani ; his Heresie recorded , and condemned by y y Lib. 3. de Haereti● . fabulis . Theodoret , and z z Lib. 6. histor. c. 33. Eusebius .

Finally , to omit diuers other Protestant doctrines , for greater breuity ; the doctrine teaching , that sinne could not hurt a man , if so he had faith ( a Paradox reuiued by a a Lut● . In his sermons en●lished . p. 147. et 276. &c. Luther ) was first inuented by Eunomius , but impugned by b b Lib. de Haeres . c. 54. S. Augustine : his schollers stiled Eunomiani .

Thus farre of Protestant doctrines broached by certaine impious Hereticks in those former times ; who though they be long since departed this world ; yet their misery is , that their end cannot be reputed their end , nor their death ; since in regard of this their change of faith , and innouations introduced by them into Gods Church , they doubtlesly liue ( if they had not a finall repentance ) in a perpetuity of insufferable torments .

Now concerning the times , when all these former points of Protestancy did first take their being ; this Circumstance ( for the most part ) may be taken from the times , wherein the Fathers ( who did impugne , and write against the said doctrines ) did liue ; seeing no sooner any of the said doctrines began to rise , and get on wing ; but presently one Father , or other was ready ( by his penne ) to suppresse , and beat downe the same . And thus we finde that sentence most true ; to wit , To c c Vincent . Lyrinensis contra haeres . reduce an Heresie to it beginning , is a confutation of the said Heresie .

That all these former prime Hereticks did depart , and go out of a more ancient society of Christians , then themselues ( to wit , out of the then visible , and knowne society of vs Catholicks , in those times ) according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt d d 1. Ioan ▪ 2. ex nobis ; and consequently , that it was those Hereticks ( who by drawing to themselues , the impurity of the former errours , became the channels ( as I may say ) of the Church , cleansing , and freeing her , from all filth , and ordure of I 〈…〉 ouation ) who made the change , and alteration , is p●ooued seuerall waies . First , because it appeareth from the aboue alleadged Confessions of the learned Protestants , that our Catholicke Faith was the only faith in those ages , generally beleeued , and that the Protestant Church ( supposing that afore it had beene in Being ) was as then by their like Confessions , wholy extinct , and inuisible .

Secondly , the foresaid points of the former Hereticks departing from a more ancient community of Christians ; is further euicted , from the Fathers particuler charging this , or that Hereticke , with this , or that particuler Heresy only , for if either any , or all of them had ioyntly taught all the Articles of protestancy ( at this present beleeued ) then no doubt all the said Articles of protestancy , as then mantained by one man , had beene impugned , and writen against by the said Fathers , as well , as the particuler Heresies of this , or that particuler Hereticke are by them contradicted .

Thirdly , in that the Fathers , who condemned the foresa●d Hereticks , were euer reputed most Orthodoxall , and pious Doctours , neither were they reprehended by any other Father , of Gods Church , for such their proceeding against those Hereticks , which consideration demonstrateth , that the whole Church of God did in those times agree in faith , and Religion with those Fathers , and against the aboue condemned , and nouelizing Hereticks : from whence we may further conclude , that the whole Church of Christ ( which hath authority to discerne , both true , and false doctrine ; as a straight line me sureth both a right , and crooked line ) did by the former Fathers ( as by her instruments ) condemne those Men for broaching such their Heresies . Fourthly , and lastly , ( for accession of more reasons ) the former point appeareth , from the consideration of the Nature of the former Heresies ; which seeing they , for the most part consist in Negations , ( as the deniall of Free-Will , deniall of Purgatory , deniall of the Reall Presence &c. ) do therefore presuppose a preexistency of the Affirmatiue doctrines , whereof they are meerely Negations : I meane they preadmit a former beleefe of the said doctrines of Free-will , of Purgatory , of the Reall Presence &c. For why should any Sectarie in those daies , rise vp to deny any of the said doctrines , if those doctrines had not beene afore beleeued ? From which it euidently followeth , that the Professours of the affirmatiue doctrines were that society of Christians , out of which ( as more ancient ) the former Hereticks originally departed , and went out . And with this ( most remarkeable Men ) I end , remitting to your owne cleare eyed iudgments ( now after the perusing of this smale Treatise ) whether it was the present Church of Rome , or the Protestant Church , which hath made this so much inculcated change , and alteration from that Faith , which first was preached , and taught in the sayd Church of Rome , by the Apostles .

Laus Deo et Beatae Virgini Mariae .

THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEW OR THE SECOND DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEW

Betweene . Michaeas the former Conuerted Iew. Ochinus , who first planted Protestancy in England , in King Edward the sixt his raygne . Doctour Reynolds of Oxford . Neuserus cheife Pastour of Heidelberge , in the Palatinate .

The Contents hereof the Argument following will show .

Here is adioyned an Appendix , wherin is taken a short Suruey ( contayning a full Answere ) of a Pamphlet intituled : A Treatise of the Visibility , and Succession of the True Church in all ages . Printed Anno. 1624.

Si dixerint vobis : Ecce in deserto est nolite exire ; Ecce in Penetralibus ; no●●●e credere .

Math. 24.

PERMISSV SVPERIORVM . Anno. M. DC . XXX .

THE ARGVMENT .

MICHAEAS , after the Disputation had betweene Cardinall Bellarmine , and D. Whitakers , touching Romes chang in Religion ; ( through which he was first made Catholicke and in short tyme after made Priest . ) trauelleth into many Countries , to see their Vniuersities , and places of learning . At the length he arriueth in England ; where from visiting of Cambridg , he cometh to Oxford . Then he findeth D. Reynolds , Ochinus , and Neuserus . They mooue him to become Protestant . He answereth , that the want of performace of the Prophecies , touching the Visibility of Christs Church , in the Protestant Church , induceth him besides other reasons to continue Catholicke . Hereupon they all begin a Disputation touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church , for former ages ; prefixing therto ( by mutuall consent ) a short Discourse of the Necessity of a continuall Visibility of the true Church . Michaeas so fully displayeth the insufficiency of the pretended Instances of Protestants , and of all other Arguments vrged for proofe thereof , That insteed , of Michaeas being to be made a Protestant by this Disputation ; Ochinus , and Neuserus , as not acknowledging the present Roman Church to be the true Church , and seing the Prophecies , not to be fulfilled in the Protestant Church , do finally come to this point , to wit , absolutely , and openly to affirme , that the Church of Christ ( as not hauing the Prophecies accomplished in it , which were foretould to be performed in the true Church of God touching it Visibilitie ) is a false Church , and that our Sauiour Christ was a Seducer . Hereupon they both protest , that , from that tyme forward they do renounce the Christian fayth , and do embrace the Iewish Religion ; and so teaching Circumcision , and reuiuing the Old law , they do turne blasphemous Iewes or Turks . Michaeas and D. Reynolds do vse vehement perswasions to them , to the contrary ; but their words preuayle not ; and so the disputation breaketh off . What courses Ochinus and Neuserus do after take for their spreading of Iudaisme , is hereafter set downe : And all the passages of their Reuolt are manifested , partly out of their owne wrytings , and partly from the acknowledgment of diuers learned Protestants : so as their Apostacy is not feigned , but true and reall .

THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEW WHEREIN IS DEMONSTRATED ; that the Protestant Church hath euer remayned Inuisible ; or rather hath not bene in Being , since the Apostles daies , till Luthers reuolt . DOCTOVR REYNOLDS .

MICHAEAS , God saue you , I much reioyce to see you here in England ; And I congratulate your coming to this our Vniuersity of Oxford : I haue often heard of you through occasion of your former entercourse of disputes with my Brother D. Whitakers ; though it was neuer my fortune to see you before this present .

MICHAEAS .

I greatly thanke you M. Doctour , for this your kindnesse touching my coming hither ; you may know , that since my last seeing of D. Whitakers , I haue passed through diuers Countries , and Nations , moued thereunto ( notwithstanding my greate age ) through my owne innate desire of seeing places and Vniuersitis of erudition , and learning . Now at the last , I am arriued in England , and am immediatly comne from visiting the Vniuersity of Cambridge : a place in my iudgment , much exceeding all prayses heretofore deliuered of it . But may I make bolde to enquire of you , who those two gentlemen here present , are ; whose externall comportments do euen depose , that their mindes are fayrely enriched with many Intellectuall good parts ; for it is certaine , that a mans outward cariadge is commonly the true shadow of the minde , cast by the light of the inward soule .

DOCTOVR REYNOLDS

You haue coniectured aright . For both these are men of great eminency for learuing . The elder of them is called Ochinus , who being accompained with the learned Peter Martyr , did in King Edward the sixts tyme first a a Osiander Cet . 16. l. 2. c. 67. p. 423. Hoc tempore , Ecclesiae in Anglia ad formam Cal 〈…〉 sticam , opera Petri Martyris Florentini , & Bernardi Ochini Senensis reforma●ae sunt . And Symlerus ( a Protestant ) in his booke de vita & obit. Petri Martyris fol. 13. Petrus Martyr ab Archiepiscopo Cantuariensi de voluntate Regis vocatus est ; itaque Argentinâ in Angliam discessit , comitante eum Bernardo Ochino , qui & ipse ab eodem Archiepiscopo vocatus est , plant in England the doctrine of Caluin , after the Romish Religion was once abolished : One , whose presence in those dayes made England happie , whose after b b Bale in praesat . in Act. Rom. Pontif. printed 1558 sayth of Ochinus and Peter Martyr : Faelix Anglia dum haec paria habuit ; misera dum amisit . absence made it Vnfortunate ; & whom all c c So sayth Caluin of Ochinus in these words : quos Itali Bernardino Ochi●o & Petro Vermilio opponent ? l. de scandalis ( extant ) in his tract . Theolog. printed 1597. pag. 111. Italy ( for he is an Italian ) could not equall . This other is Neuserus , the chiefe Pastour d d Con●adus Slussenberge in Theolog. Caluin . l. 1. Art. 2 calleth Neuserus , He 〈…〉 ergensis Ecclesiae primarius Pastor . of Heidelberge in the Palatinate : a man whom Nature , & his owne Industrie haue not placed in any lower roome of knowledge ; for he is transcendently learned , and hath much labored in dilating the Ghospel of Christ . Both these men are reciding here for the time , by reason of some late emergent occations , and businesse , tending to the aduancement of Christs Church . I could wish Michaeas , you were acquainted with them .

MICHAEAS .

Gentlemen . I greete you both in the salutation of the chiefe Apostle : e e 1. Petri . 1. gratia vobis , & pax multiplicetur . And I am glad , that I am comne to that place , where the very wals , and streets ( in regard of such mens presence ) do euen Eccho forth learning and all good literature .

OCHINVS .

Worthy Michaeas ( for so I heare you called ) I willingly entertayne your acquaintance ; for learning I prize highly in any man , as holding it the chiefest riches ( next to true Religion ) wherewith the vnderstanding is endowed .

NEVSERVS .

And I as happily do congratulate your arriuall here ; for what company of men are more to be esteemed , then the Society of learned Men , where themselues ( though few in number ) are a sufficient Auditory to themselues ; Satis magnum alteri alter theatrum : they interchangeably giuing , and receiuing all content by their leatned discourses ?

DOCTOVR REYNOLDS .

Haue you had ( Michaeas ) a full sight of our Vniuersity , & Colledges ? If not ; we are ready to accompany you , throughout all the chiefe places thereof .

MICHAEAS .

I haue already seene them all ; and particularly your late erected schooles , ( wherin are dayly ventilated all questions , worthy the iudiceous eares of Schollers ) and your spatious liberary the very treasury , or storehouse of the Muses . And I must confesse , that during my long trauell , and perlustration of all Christendome , my eyes neuer beheld such two fayre places designed for Nurses of learning , as Oxford & Cambridge are ; the very honor , and glory of your Nation . For where are thete such healthfull , and pleasant seates for Vniuersityes both being placed in a Triangle from the chiefe Citty of the realme ? Such magnificent , and stately buildings , and Colledges fitting to be pallaces to so many Princes ? Such opulency of reuenews , and rich endowments , appropriated vnto them for the education of poore schollers ? Finally such pious statutes , Ordinances , and Decrees , left by their Founders for the aduancement of vertue , and learning ? All this is not to be matched ( I assure my selfe ) throughout the whole Circumference of the earth . Only the defect , and griefe is , that the Vniuersityes , & their liuings , being first instituted , & giuen by Catholicke Founders , and for the propagation of the Catholicke Religion ) for ; from them , as from two mayne sources , and welsprings , by the conduits of particuler Mens labors , the whole land ( touching sayth ) did receiue its watering ) are now most repugnantly from the first Erectors intention , turned to the depressing , and ouerthrow of the sayd Catholicke Religion : matter to be deliuered in Threnes , or Elegyes , and Accents of lamentation , and complaint . And such as the Vniuersityes are , so are the students ; many of them ( euen by my owne tryall ) of eleuated wits ; of transpearcing iudgments ; most skilfull in the learned tongues ; fraught with all choysnes of good letters ; and finally of a candide ingenuity in their comportments .

D. REYNOLDS .

Though reports do often multiply , and become greater in their owne agitation ; yet your prayses of our Academies I take for no amplification of speeches , but ( if credit may be giuen to many great trauellers ) for positiue , and measured truths . They both are two Sisters , linked in the bond of so inuiolable a friendship , and association , as that they may be well tearmed : Oxonium Cantabrigiense , and Cantabrigia Oxoniensis . Yet the elder of these two is Oxford ; And since I am a Sonne of her , I could haue wished , I had met with you before your Conference had with D. Whitakers , a Branch of Cambridge , and otherwise a Man of great talents , and parts . For I should haue hoped , that as Oxford is the elder Sister , so from a member of the elder Sister , you should haue receyued greater satisfaction in the light of the Ghospell ; then both by relation of others , and now by your owne ouertures , you haue .

That Oxford is the elder Sister ( and therein hath her preeminence of her primogeniture ) we easely prooue ; for we deduce the first occasion of our Vniuersity ( though not the plantation ) euen from the tyme f f Se Polidor Virgil , and Leyland his Annotations vpon Polidor Virgil . of Brutus ; who , when he came into this Iland , was accompanyed with diuers learned Greeke Philosophers , who made choise of a place neere to Oxford , to seate themselues in , as a place most pleasant , and fitting for speculation , and study . After which tymes , Alphredus ( yongest Sonne of Ethelwolpe King of the West-saxons , about the yeare of the Incarnation . 873. ( himselfe being after King ) did translate those scholes of the greeke Philosophers ( which afore had suffred dishonour , and contempt ) to Oxford ; And then with Immunityes , liuings , and buildings , he gaue the first foundation to our Vniuersity .

MICHAEAS .

M. Doctour . I am no Herauld to discusse or proclayme Antiquityes . And I know not whether of these two Sisters be more ancient ; yet in that I will not be vngratefull vnto Cambridge , for my late kinde entertaynment , I will not conceale , what my Memory can truly yeild vnto , concerning the Antiquity of Cambridge , discoursed off by some of that Vniuersity . They * * Vide authorem Genealogiae principum Cambrorum , Brilannicorum & Saxonicorum . As also Cadnaeus de aduent● lulij Caesaris . sayd , that Cantaber , who was Sonne of one of the Kings of Spayne , coming into England before the Incarnation of our Lord and Sauiour , 394. yeares , and marying a daughter of Gurguntius , King of the Britons , gaue first plantation , and Name to their Vniuersity ; and caused it to be frequented with Philosophers , and other learned men . Now of what credit both your Antiquities are , I know not ; if the one hath the prerogatiue in Antiquity : the other enioyeth it in statelinesse of buyldings . But howsoeuer these matters be , they are both most celebrious , and renowned Seminaryes of learning , and not drouping Academyes , as some are in other Countreyes . Seing it is your pleasure ( M. Doctour ) thus to entertayne discourse touching these famous places , I will acquaint you with two things , which since my first seeing of them I haue obserued . One is , that not only euery Colledge in it library , but diuers Studens in ech Colledge , haue in their studyes many Catholicke wryters and particulerly the so much much celebrated works of Bellarmyne , fayrely bound vp , and well stringed : But I feare , they are there placed rather for a compleate furnishing of their Libraryes , then for any great vse of reading them ; And so the benefit by them is no more then if a patient sending for pills to the Physitian , should neuer take them , but let them lye in his chamber window .

D. REYNOLDS .

It is farre otherwise ; for all those bookes mentioned , are much read by many of vs : And Bellarmynes arguments are refuted in our weekly Sermons , as occasion is incidently ministred from the Text. And my selfe particulerly haue publikely read in yonder greate Diuinity Schoole , that you see , as also haue writen against him .

MICHAEAS .

I know your selfe are learned , & withall I know you haue not only writen , but also read in confuting of him ; as a neere acquaintance of myne , who was an earewitnesse of your lectures , hath tould me . But as for others , who in their Sermons ( euen obtorto collo ) will needes hale Bellarmyne in , I am halfe perswaded , they do it with the like policy , which some men liuing about great Townes , and willing to get the reputation of valour , are accustomed to do ; that is , they purposely quarell ( thereby to be spoken of for their courage ) with some one , or other chiefe professed Hacster , or Swashbukler .

D. REYNOLDS .

O Michaeas . Your censure is ouer vncharitable . It is the desire of hauing , the Truth tryed , which prouokes our Deuynes in their Sermons to trace Bellarmyne ; that so the schollers ( their Auditours ) may more easily declyne the obliquity of his pathes .

MICHAEAS .

I can not much blame you , to set the best glasse vpon your Brethrens actions : But this I must say , that those Schollers of your Vniuersiryes , which are of cleere vnderstandings , not forestauled by badly preiudging of Catholicke Religion ; but aboue all , hauing sufficiency of temporall meanes , to support their states , and not expecting to rise by Ecclesiasticall liuings ( the most dangerous Bayte of these tymes ) must in all morall certainty fauour in their priuate iudgment the Catholicke partie , if so with diligence they peruse the Cardinalls works , and other Catholicke writers But otherwise ; it is a death , when a Man of ripe age , and well furnished with learning , is brought through want of meanes to say : O how must I liue ? The Roman Religion ( I see ) threatneth pouerty , disgrace , and perhapps the rope too ; the Protestant promiseth reputation , honour , and riches . Then the Vnderstanding , and the Will do easily partake together , to the betraying of the Soule , by entertaining an erroneous Religion ; priuiledged with authority , seconded with the streame of the tymes , and aduantaged through meanes of preferring : and here then that Sentence houldeth it force : As gold is tryed by the stone , so man by gold . But let me stay my selfe , I feare , I haue spoken ouerlowde , and the Schollers ouerhearing me out of their Colledge windows ( being so neare to vs ) may much blame this my Censure .

The second thing I note ( but pardon me ( most florishing Academies , ) I protest , I speake with the Apostle , in g g 2. Cor. 6. charitate non ficta , and not in any vpbrayding sense ) is , that feminine Seruitours , as employed for seruyle vses , haue an ouer-free accesse into the Colledges ; a sight most strange in Catholicke vniuersityes and ( as Iam enformed ) much disliked by your owne Protestants . O where vigour of youth , Mansinnate propension , the present inuiting obiect , and the priuatnes of the place , do all conspire together , what dangerous effects of this Nature , may they produce ? And we all see , how apt the fyer is to take hould of any neare combustible mater . But I had almost forgotten my selfe therefore leauing these poynts , as meerly Perereà , or impertinencyes , let vsdescend to some more serious discourse . Touching my present fayth , whereat you glance , I grant , I was a Iew , both by byrth , and Religion , till by the infinite mercy of the Highest , and the charitable endeuour of that most Illustrious , and learned Cardinall in his disputes with D. Whitakers , euen through waight of argument , I was forced to embrace the Catholicke Fayth ; My Iudgement being till then , but as Plato his Basatabula , propending indifferently to Catholicke , and Protestant ; and ready to receiue the wryting , & Impression of that Religion ( whichsoeuer it should be ) that came presented to myne eyes in the fayre attyre of venerable Antiquity .

OCHINVS .

I do much grieue ( Michaeas ) to see your candour , and integrity thus distayned with the aspersion of superstition , and glad I should be , to lend a hand for the pulling you out of the myre of your present errours .

NEVSERVS .

Doubtlesly ( Michaeas ) your choyce of Religion hath proceeded from an indigested , and raw censure , which you haue made of the passages of the former disputation , by you mentioned : And therefore if you had gone with greater leasure therein , your successe had bene the more fortunate : But yet (h) Ioan. 11. your sicknes is not vnto death ; for there is tyme for your cure : And since Grace , and Temptation are the seedes of the Holy Ghost , and the Diuell ; embrace that offered vnto you by God , by shewing you the light of his Gospell ; and ouercome this , being the bayte of Antichrist ; and my seruiseable labour shall no way be wanting to further so happy a change . And the more I commiserate your present estate ; you erring out of Ignorance , not out of malice : for we see , Saluation of your soule is the Circumference , within which all your thoughts are bounded .

MICHAEAS .

Gentlemen , I thanke you all , and do interpret your words in the same language , in which you did deliuer them ; I meane , in the Dialect of your Charity , And I see , how ready your zeale is to take fyer vpon the least occasion of discourse . Therefore assure your selues , I am not ashamed of my fayth . I am a Roman Catholicke at least , and through the grace of God ( that working , and efficatious Grace , I meane , which is the stone , set in the Ring of Nature ) I am resolued so to liue , and dye . My resolution is so inalterable herein , as that I trust through him , who for his owne glory , and in his owne Cause , is euer ready to fortify the weake , that your strongest assaults in dispute ( for I see , thither your speeches tend ) shall not be able to beate me off the Station of my present Profession : And I am the more confident , in that with God , causes are heard to speake , not Persons .

And further you may rest certifyed , that since the worthy Cardinals dispute , with D. Whitakers , I haue spent my whole tyme in the study of the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks , and the Protestants ; and haue found diuers other most forcible inducements for my continuance in that fayth , of which already I haue made election : so certayne it is , that the great Motion of Religion ( as it is newly entertayned by the iudgment ) turneth vpon many wheeles ; one still mouing and seconding another .

D. REYNOLDS .

May we entreate of you , to show what Reasons are most preuayling , for your not incorporating your selfe within our Protestant Church ?

MICHEAS .

M. Doctour I will . Besides the Argument handled betweene the Cardinall and D. Whitakers , touching the supposed change of the fayth of Rome ( which to me still remaynes an vnauoydable Demonstration ) many other Reasons are , and among the rest , this one : I find by my perusall of Ecclesiasticall Historyes , that the Protestant Church had it first being , & ( as I may say ) it Creation in the dayes of Luther ( or rather after ) then ( and not before ) coming out of an Abysse of Nothing Now what , warrant can I haue ( after my leauing of the Iewish fayth , which is confessed to be the true fayth for seuerall thousand yeares ) to implant my selfe in that Society of Christians , whose Church ( my owne age being almost 70. ) is not thirty yeares elder , then I am ? The truth of which point is euicted , in that you are not able to instance the being of Protestants in any former Age. Now it is an inexpugnable verity , that the Church of Christ is euer , and in all ages to be most visible in her members . Whereas on the contrary part some Protestants , well discerning the want in their Church of this so necessary a Visibility , haue bene forced to forge in their mindes , a certayne imaginary , and Inuisible Church ; and teaching that it is not necessary , that the Church of Christ should be at all tymes Visible ; but that it may , and often hath bene , not only inconspicuous , and inglorious , but wholy latent , and vnknowne . But I feare I haue made an vnpleasing , and ouer deepe incision in so dangerous a wound of your Church .

D. REYNOLDS .

See , how the ambushment of your owne Passions ( I meane of preiudice and dislike ) betray your Iudgment . And see , how foulely euen in the beginning you are deceaued ; and how one errour in your words inuolues in it selfe a second errour . For first we are ready , and prepared at all tymes , to prooue by particuler , and most warrantable Instances , that there haue bene men in euery age since the Apostles , professing our Protestant Religion : So farre off we are from acknowledging , that the riuers of our fayth first issued out of Luthers fountayne . Secondly , it is your mistaking , to thinke that the learned Protestants ( for what any Anonymous , and illiterate scribler may blot his paper with , by defending the contrary doctrine , we regard not ) as acknowledging such a defect of Protestants , do teach an inuisibility of the Church of Christ , especially after the tymes of the comming of the Messias . For all we concurrently maintayne , that the Professours of the true fayth must at all tymes , without the least interruption , be made knowne , and discernable ; And we further iustify , that a want of such a Visibility destroyeth , and annihila●eth the Church of God .

MICHAEAS .

But will these two learned Men conspire with you ( M. Doctour ) in defending this euer necessary Visibility of the Church ; and this without any retyring backe herein , or lessening , and mincing the poynt , once afore granted ?

OCHINVS .

I speake for my selfe . I am so confident therein , as that I am ready at this instant , to maintayne it agaynst any ; and this from the prophecyes of Gods sacred writ , wherein the palme , and victorious state of the Church ( in subiugating to it the Gentils ) is at large soretould to be in these after tymes , euer most illustrious , and radiant .

NEVSERVS .

And I as confidently do auerre the same , euen from the sayd former deuine Oracles ; and am prepared ( if neede should require ) to solue all such texts of Scripture , which in an ignorant , and mistaking eye , may seeme to import an Inuisibility of the Church at any tyme.

MICHAEAS .

You all answere me to my full content , and aboue my expectation . Well then , let vs eauen , and playne the way of our ensuing dispute , by resting vpon some one granted ground on all sides . Which ground is the establishment of the Churches Visibility . For it being once presumed , that the true Church of God must at all tymes enjoy this Visibility ; it then most consequently followeth , that you are obliged , eyther to produce examples of Protestant Professours , for euery age since Christ ; or els to grant , that the Protestant Church is not the true Church , but a late erected Conuenticle . Therefore in regard hereof , I hould it fitting , that all of vs should ioyne our forces together , for the proofe of this chiefe , and head principle of the Churches Visibility : you then Ochinus ( if it shall please you ) may according to your former proffer , vndertake the probation of it from the Scripture . Neuserus will ( he sayth ) recconcile all such chiefe seeming passages of the Scripture , as may make show to euict the contrary . And I will entreate of you ( M. Doctour ) to fortify the sayd Verity , from the learned Monuments of the auncient fathers ( in whose wrytings ( no doubt ) you haue bene much conuersant ) as also from force of Reason . My selfe will lastly reuet , and warrant the same point , from the often ingeminated acknowledgments of the most markable , & learned Protestants . In whose bookes ( I confesse ) I haue much trauelled , since my conuersion from Iudaisme ; And whose authorities I shall haue often occasion to produce throughout this conference . For now you may take notice , that I haue cast off all my former outward comportment of a Iew , and am not only in fayth , but also in my studyes , my Idiome of speech , and euery way els , wholy Christian .

D. REYNOLDS .

I like well your method here intended ; and indeed it is that , which the Philosophers call : Ordo Naturae . For by this meanes , we first handle the Thesis to wit , whether the Church of God is to be visible , or no. That done , we next descend to the Hypothesis ; Which is , if the Protestants Church hath euer enioyed this Visibility , or not . Neyther can any iudicious man hould this first part , as but certayne Prolegomena , tending only to the better vnfoulding of the second Part ; for it is indeed a primary essentiall , and radicall point , and first in all necessity to be discussed . For what auayleth it to prooue , that there haue bene Professours of Protestancy in all ages since Christ , if it rest doubtfull , whether the Church of Christ exacteth such a necessity of it Professours in all ages , or no ? Therefore ( Michaeas ) for my part I w●llingly vndergoe the taske desired by you .

OCHINVS .

We all ioyne hands herein ; Thus we see , that ech of vs is prepared to cary a stone , to the building of this fort ; which being once erected , wil be able to endure the shot of her greatest Enemyes .

NEVSERVS .

I am most ready to performe my former assumed Scene : therefore delay no tyme , but begin .

OCHINVS .

Well then , seing the proofes drawne from the sacred Scripture , are worthily euer to haue the first place ; and seing I haue voluntarily imposed this labour vpon my selfe , I will first begin . Now for the confirmation of this supreme Verity of the Churches Visibility , we will produce our first proofes from those Prophecyes , which foretell , that the Church after the comming of the Messias shal be miraculously multiplyed . Which extraordinary multiplicity of Professours must needs imply a Visibility of them . As where it is sayd of the Church : The Iles k k Esay . 60. shall wayte for thee . Their Kings shall miuister vnto thee ; and thy gates shal be continually open ; Neyther day nor night shall they be shut ; that men may bring to thee the riches of the gentills . And agayne : Kings l l Esay . 49. shal be thy nursing Fathers , and Queenes thy mothers . And yet more : I will m m Psalm . giue thee the Heathens for thy inheritance , and the end of the earth for thy Possession . And lastly ( to omit diuers others such predictions of the Churches encrease , and amplitude , it is sayd : enlarge n n Esay . 54. See here of the contents of the English Bible vpon that chapter . the places of thy tents , spread out the curtaynes of thy habitation ; for thou shalt encrease on the right hand , and on the left ; thy seede shall possesse the Gentills ; and inhabit the desolate Cityes .

Now how can these Prophecyes , touching the enlargement of the Church , be truly applyed to that Church , which shall consist of so few , as that it shal be sometimes absolutely Inuisible ? Or how shall it gates be continually open , and shut neyther day nor night ( as aboue is prophecyed of it ) if it shall remayne at any time , in a night of Latency ?

In this next place , I will alledge such texts of holy Scripture , wherin we fynd the word : Ecclesia or Church ; In all which ( without exception ) by the word : Church , is signifyed a visible congregation of Men. The places ( among others , for breuity omitted ) may be these : Numbers 20. Why haue you brought the Church of the Lord into solitude ? But this Church was the knowne , and visible people of Israëll , which came out of Aegypt . In like sort , it is sayd . 3. Kings 8. The King turned his face , and blessed all the Church of Israell ; for all the Church of Israell did stand &c. Math 18. Tell the Church , & if he will not heare the Church , let him be as an Heathen or Publican But how can we be commanded to tell the Church , if we do not know which is the Church ? And if in all our spirituall necessities , we are commanded to repaire , to the Church , then followeth it , that the Church at all tymes must be visible . Act. 20. Take heede to your selues , and to the whole flock , wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops , regere Ecclesiam Det , to gouerne the Church of God . But how could they gouerne the Church of God , if they knew it not ? Act. 15. They being brought on the way by the Church , passed through Ph●enice and Samaria . And agayne there : They were receaued of the Church , and the Apostles . Act. 18. Paule went vp , and saluted the Church . Now how can these texts be possibly applyed to any Inuisible congregation or company of men . Furthermore , S. Paul speaketh of himselfe , that he persecuted the Church of God , as in 1. Cor. 15. Galat. 1. Philipp . 3. In all which places the word : Church , is vsed : But it is well knowne , whom S. Paul did persecute . And in 1. Timoth. 3. It is sayd how to conuerse indomo Dei , quae est Ecclesia Dei , in the house of the liuing God , which is the Church of God . But how could Timothee know , how to conuerse in the house of God , except he did know , which was this house ? To all which former texts of Scripture , I annex this one note ( a point much to be considered ) that not any one place of Scripture can be produced , wherein the word : Church , is named , but that a Visible , and externall company of men is necessarily vnderstood thereby .

To the former Scriptures may be added certayne descriptions of the Church in other passages thereof ; as in Esay . 2. Daniel . 3. Michaeas 4. the Church is compared to a conspicuous mountayne , which cannot be vnseene , according to the expositions of Ierom , o o In hunc locum . Austin , p p ●ranct . 1. in epist. Ioannis . and the Protestants . q q See the marginall notes of the English bibles of anno . 1576. In Esay . 2. In like sort in Psalm . 18. those words : He placed his tabernacle in the Sunne : are thus paraphrazed by S. r r Tract. 2. in epist in Ioan. Austin : In manifesto posuit Ecclesiam suam &c. He placed his tabernacle in an open place ; his tabernacle is his Church , which is placed in the Sunne , not in the night , but in the day . Thus Austin .

Another most illustrious & conuincing passag of the Scripture for the Churches Visibility , is that in the Epistle to the Ephesians c. 4. where it is sayd of Christ : He gaue Pastours , & Doctours to the consummation of Saints , vnto the worke of the Ministery , till we all meete in the Vnity of Fayth ; that is ( as D. s s Against the Rhemish Test . in Eph. 4. Fulke interpreteth ) for euer . These words necessarily import , that the Church of Christ must at all tymes , and seasons ( and this without any interruption ) haue Pastours to administer the Sacraments , and preach the word . Which exposition being granted , implyeth necessarily an euer Visibility of the Church . For how can those Doctours , and Pastours preach at all tymes , and vpon all occasions the word of God , & administer the Sacraments , if they be concealed , and lye in secret ? Or how can the persons , to whom the Word is preached , & the Sacraments dispensed , become vnknowne or Inuisible ?

That this is the true interpretation of the former text of the Ephesians , is generally taught by our owne learned men : For according hereto , D. Whitakers teacheth , the preaching of the Word , and the administration of the Sacraments , to be so necessary to the Church , that he thus saith : t t Contra Duraeum l. 3. p. 249. Si adsunt , Ecclesiam constituunt ; & tollunt , si aufer antur . With whom conspireth D. Willet , thus saying of the administration of the Word , & Sacraments : These u u In Synops. Papisin . p. 71. marks cannot be absent from the Church , and it is no longer a true Church then it hath these Markes . And hence it is , that D. Whitakers further sayth , that the preaching of the word , and the administration of the Sacraments are : Ecclesiae x x Contra Duraeum l. 3. p. 260. proprietates essentiales ; essentiall propr●etyes of the Church : And that D. Fulke thus affirmeth : Christ y y Against Heskins , Sanders &c p. 569. will suffer no particuler Church to continue without a seruant to ouersee it : And that , a a Fulke vbisupra p. 536. Pastours , & Doctours must be in the Church , till the end of the World , euen from Christs time to Luthers age , yea our sayd D. Fulke further affirmeth , that these (b) Pastours , & Doctours must resist all In his answere to a contersayte Catholicke p. 11. false opinions , with open reprehension . Vnto our former brethren accord other Protestant Deuines , thus wryting : The c c Propositions and principles disputed in the vniuer●ily of Geneua p. 845. ministery is an ossentiall Marke of the true Church . Finally Caluin comparteth with vs all herein : saying : the Church can neuer want Pastours , and Doctours : So truly do we Protestants interpret the words of Esay : Vpon thy d d C. 72. walls ô Ierusalem , I haue set watchmen , all the day , and all the night for euer : they shall not be silent . Now from these premisses we demonstraciuely proue the euer , and vninterrupted visibility of the Church : a point so euident , that our owne learned Protestants do ( according to the former doctrine ) defyne a visible Church in these words : A e e Iacob in his reasons t●ken out of Gods word p. 2● . visible Church is a congregation of the faithfull people , where the word is preached , and the Sacraments ministred ; Which definition is also allowed by Doctour f f In his Synops. p. 54. Willet ; and which euen in reason it selfe is warrantable ; since the Church , as enioying the administration of the Word , and Sacraments , must ( euen in that respect ) become visible , as we said aboue . And thus farre of this prophecy of the Apostle , in the explication whereof I haue stayed the longer , in that it irrefragably conuinceth the poynt now handled . And here I end , touching the necessary Visibility of Gods Church , prooued out of the sacred Scriptures .

NEVSERVS .

You might haue added ( Ochinus ) to the former Propheeyes , that it is in another place foretould of the Church of the new Testament , that it Pastours g g Ierem. 33. shal be daily multiplyed , to minister vnto God ; And this ( not with any interruption herein , but ) euen h h Esay . 66. from month to month , and from Sabaoth to Sabaoth . That all this is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Messias , appeareth from the Annotations of the English Bibles , vpon the Chapters here cited , printed 1576. You also might further haue insisted in that other Prophecy ; that the Kingdome i i Daniel . 2. of Christ shall not be giuen ouer to an other People , but shall stand for euer ; And that , it k k Esay . ●0 . shal be an eternall glory , and ioy from generation to generation . All which passages to be meant of the Church , is acknowledged by all learned Protestants . Now how vntowardly , and vnapt●y these passages ( with the former by you alledged ) sort to a company of Professours , shut vp in so secret a manner ; as that no man can take notice of them , I referre to any mans iudgement , not wholy blinded with partiality , and preiudice . But I feare ( Ochinus ) I haue wronged you , in vndertaking part of your assumed taske : therefore I will cease , and descend ( as afore I promised ) to answere such chiefe places of the Scripture , as are by some vrged in their sily wrytings ( the impostumous swelling of their froathy penne ) for the supporting of the Churches imaginary Inuisibility .

D. REYNOLDS .

I pray you ( Neuserus ) proceed therein ; since obscure passages in any kind of learning not explayned , do often suggest tacit obiections , perplexing , and intricating the iudgments of the weake , and ignorant .

NEVSERVS .

I will . And first for example , are vsually obiected those of Elias , when he sayd : relictus l l Reg. 〈◊〉 . sum solus , I am left alone . As also , that sentence of the Prophet : deficiet m m Daniel . 9. hostia , & sacrificium , the Oast , and sacrifice spall cease . And agayne , that of the Apostle : Nisi n n 2. Th●ss . 2. venerit discessio primum &c. Except there come first a departure &c. And finally that of the Apocalyps : The o o 12. woman must flye into the wildernesse &c. All which places are strangely de●orted by some few iniudicious men , to the defence of the Churches Inuisibility .

And to the first , against these Inuisibilists , I say , touching those former words of Elias ; first admitting the Iewish Synagogue to haue bene then inuisible ; yet is this example defectiuely alleadged , as applyed to the Church of Christ ; since the predictions , and promises made to Christ his Church , ( whose p p Hebr● . 4● . 8. Testament is established in better promises ) are farre greater , and more worthy , then those of the Iewish Synagogue . Agayne , the foresaid example doth not extend to the whole Church of God before Christ ; but only to the Iewish Synagogue , being only , but a part , or member thereof . For besides the Iewes , there were diuers others faythfull ; as Melchisadech , Cornelius , the Eunuch to the Queene of Caudace &c. Secondly , I say , this example maketh wholy agaynst the alleadgers of it ; since the words of Elias were spoken not generally of all the Iewish People , but only in regard of the Countrey of Israel ; and accordingly God answered the complaint of Elias with restraint to that only Countrey , the texts saying : I haue left to me in Israel seauen thousands , which haue not bowed vnto Ba●l . Adde hereto , that in those very tymes , the Church did greatly florish in the adioyning Countrey of Iuda , and was to Elias then knowne , and Visible , vnder the raigne of Asa , and Iosaphat . And thus is this obiection answered euen by Melancthon , q q In corpore doctrinae p. 530. and Enoch Clapham . r r In his soueraigne remedy p. 17. Lastly , admitting these seauen thousands were vnknowne to Elias ; yet followeth it not , that they were vnknowne to all others of the same tyme ; Much lesse then is this Example of force to prooue , that the Church of God may be Latent , and Inuisible for many hundred yeares together ( as some of our ignorant brethren do teach ) not to one Elias only ; but to the whole World : And thus farre of this so much vrged example of Elias .

To the second . Those words of the Prophet : The Oast , & sacrifice shall cease &c. Are to be referred to the ouerthrow of Ierusalem , and the ceasing of the Iewish sacrifices , euen by the exposition of s s In 24. M●chae● . Chrysostome , t t Vbi Chrysost. Ierome , u u Epist. 88. ad Esichium . Austin , & others . Neyther can the words be properly extended to the tymes of Antichrist ; since we teach , that Antichrist is already comne ; and yet we see , that sacrifices do still remayne .

To the third . By the word departure , mentioned by the Apostle , is vnderstood , eyther Antichrist himselfe by the figure Metonymia ; because he shal be the cause , why many shall depart from Christ , as Chrysostome , and Theodoret vpon this place do expound , as also Austin : x x l. 20. de ciuitat . Deu● . 19. Or rather is vnderstood a departure , and defection from the Roman Empyre , as Ambrose , Sedulius , Primasius , and diuers Protestants y y Bullenlēger in his preface to his Sermons vpon the Apocalyps ; As also the Protestant Sc●lio in his booke of the second comming of Christ . fol. 21. do expound this Text.

To the fourth . I answere , that by the Woman flying into Wildernes , S. Iohn meaneth not any locall or corporall flight out of the knowledge , and notice of the world ; but only a spirituall retiring in hart , from the allurements , and pleasures of the World , to pennance , mortification , and contemplation of celestiall matters : And in this very sense Bullenger interpreteth the Churches flight from Babilon .

To the former texts I may adde ( though not aboue mentioned ) that passage in S Iohn . z z C. 4. Venit hora & nunc est &c. The hower cometh , and now is , when the true adorers , shall adore the Father in spirit , and truth . To this I answere , that our Lord here teacheth , that the chiefe worship of God , which shal be exhibited in his Church , consisteth in an internall worship of him ; but from hence therefore it followeth not , that the Church is Inuisible , or that all externall worship is prohibited ; for our Lord here speaketh not of the place , where God shal be worshiped ; but of the manner , and rite of worshiping . Chrysostome , Cyrill , and Euthimius vpon this place , do oppose those words : in spirit , to the ceremonies of the Iewes , as they are corporall ; and those other words : in truth , to the sayd Ceremonies , as they are figures of things to come .

Now because diuers of the former passages of Scripture are obiected to proue , that the Church of Christ shal be Inuisible ( at the least ) in the time of Antichrist ; I do reply further hereto , saying ; first , That the former place of the Apostle to the Ephesians ( alledged by Ochinus ) touching an incessant , & vndiscontinued , being of Pastours , & Doctours in the Church , to remaine euen to the end of the world ( omitting other texts aboue cited by him ) as also the Protestants confessions of the Churches euer Visibility ( hereafter to be deliuered by Michaeas ) do fully answere , and satisfy the supposed doubts suggested in the former texts , touching the Churches Inuisibility in the time of Antichrist . Secondly I reply , that diuers learned brethren of ours ( punctually , and purposely , with reference to that time ) do teach , that the Church shall remayne then Visible . And to giue some tast hereof , D. Pulke thus writeth : In a a Against the Rhemish Testament , in 2. Thessal , 2. the time of Antichrist , the Church was not driuen into any corner of the world ; but was , is , & shal be dispersed in many Nations . And againe he thus writeth : The b b Vbi supra . true Church ( though obscured , and driuen into wildernes by Antichrist ) yet shall continue dispersed ouer the world .

Bullenger sayth , the Church in the time of Antichrist shal be right c c Vpon the Apocal. sol . 200. famous : But if it shal be then right famous , it must of necessity be then Visible . To be short , Szegedine ( a learned Protestant ) thus writeth : The ministers of Gods word shall preach all the time , in which Antichrist shall tread vnderfoote the holy (d) In ●a● . analyt . p. 368. Citty . Thus farre in solution of all such chiefe passages of Scripture , vsually obiected against the perpetuall Visibility of the Church . But now ( M. Doctour ) I thinke it is your turne , to warrant the former truth , from the wrytings of the auncient fathers , and from arguments of Credibility , which the force of reason it selfe doth minister .

DOCTOVR REYNOLDS

I am prepared thereto . And I will not presse your memoryes with a needles ouercharge of their sentences : Some few ( and those pertinent ) shall serue ; though otherwise they are most luxuriant , and plentifull herein . And first thus Origin writeth : Ecclesia e e Homil. 30. ●in Math●eum . est plaena fulgore , ab oriente vsque ad Occidentem , the Church is full of fulgour , or brightnes , from the East euen to the West . Cyprian discourseth thus : Ecclesia f f L. de vnitate Eccle. Dom. &c. The Church of our Lord , being replenished with light , casteth forth it beames throughout the whole earth . Chrysostome g g Homil. 4. in cap. 6. Ioan. saith : facilius est solem extingui , quam Ecclesiam obscurari ; It is more easy for the Sunne to be extinguished , then the Church to be obscured , or darkened . Finally ( for greater conpendiousnesse ) S. Austin is so full in this point , as that he maketh the Visibility of the Church , a Marke for the ignorant to discerne the true Church of Christ , from all false Conuenticles , thus writing : Propter hoc enim motus &c. h h Contra faustum Manich. lib. 1. By reason of the temptations of those , who are weake , and may be seduced by some , from acknowledging the Churches brightnesse ; our Lord euen foreseeing so much , saith : A Citye , that is built vpon a hill cannot be hidd . And further S. Augustin thus enlargeth himselfe : Ecclesia i i Contra lit Precil . 〈◊〉 . 2. c. 32. vera nemiem latet , the true Church is hidd , or concealed from no man . And yet more : k k Tract. 1. in epist. Ioannis . numquid digito &c. Do we not point our fingar to the Church ? it doth she not lye open to all ? And lastly he exaggerateth this point further in these words : l l Tract. 2. in epist. Ioannis . Quid amplius diccturus sum &c. What may I more say , then account them blynd , who cannot see so greate a mountaine who do shult their eyes against a candel , placed in a candelstich ? Thus S. Austin . And thus farre of the Fathers , from whence we may easely coniecture , how muche different ware the iudgements of the auncient , and primatiue Fathers , from their conceipts , who labour by their speeches to turne the faire streame of the Churches Resplendency , into the shallow current of her supposed Obscurity .

1. In this next place , I will descend to arguments drawne from analogy of reason . And first , from the comparison , made betwene the old Testament , and the New Testament . Certaine it is , that the Iewes euer since Ghrists dayes retained , and kept a knowne profession of their Religion , ( though vnder some restraint ) and their Synagogues haue euer since bene extarnally visible ( though disperced ) as in Greece , Spayne , Italy , Germany , France , England &c. And this point Peter m m Peter Martyr in Com. place in English . part. 2. pag. 594. saith : The Iewes , though they be kept in so great aduersity &c. yet they hould stil their Religion Martyr , and others n n Se hereof Caelius Secundus Curio l. de amplit . regn● Dei . l. 1. p. 65. and the Century : writers in the 4. chapter of euery Century . do acknowledg , and your selfe ( Michaeas ) can well iustify the same . Now then if the Church of the new Testament should want a continuall Visibility , then should it be inferiour in honour , and dignity to the Iewish Synagogue ; euen then , when the Gospell is prophesied to be most florishing , and the Synagogue to be in it greatest decay , and ruyne : a reasonable to ouerbalance all reasons , brought to the contrary .

2. The foresaid Conclusion of the Churches Visibility is also proued , from the beginning , and progresse of the Church . For first durnig the old Testament the Church was then so Visible , as that the Professours thereof did beare euen in their flesh , the Visible , and markable signe of Circumcision , as a badg of the Church . Againe , in the new Testament , the whole Church of Christ was in it infancy , and beginning in Christs Apostles , and Disciples ; Who were so Visible , as that the Holy Ghost did Visibly descend vpon them , vpon the feast of Penticost . Furthermore , We reade in the Acts. c 2. 3. 4. that on one day three thousands ; on an other , fyue thousands were adioyned to the former , by their confession of fayth , and Baptisme . And so after they ( and only they ) were reputed , as membrs of Christs Church , who did adioyne themselue to the former Christians , by their externall confession of fayth , and by Baptisme .

3. An other argument may be taken from the greate necessity imposed vpon Christians ; who are obliged vnder paine of eternall damnation , to range themselues vnto the true Church of Christ , and to perseuer in the same ; as appareth not only from the testimonies of p p lib. ●de simplicit . Praelat . Cyprian , q q Epist. 1. ad Damasum de nomine Hypostasis . Ierome , and Austin : r r l. 4. de Baptism . c. 2. but euen from reason it selfe . Since no man can raigne with Christ , who is not a member of Christ . But how can this be performed , if the Church of Christ be Inuisible ? Or how can God be excused from cruelty , by threatning to vs eternal perdition for our not performing such conditions , the which ( supposing the Church not to be Visible ) is not in our power to accomplish ?

4. Furthermore the Inuisibility of the Church impugneth the marks of the Church , giuen by vs Protestants ; which are the true preaching of the Word , and the administration of the Sacraments ; seeing there matters cannot be put in practice , but among a Visible Society of men ; and such a Society , as that one of it is knowne to an other .

5. Againe , the Inuisibillity of the Church mainly crosseth the ende , for which the Church of God was instituted . Which end was to prosecute God with that entier and perfect worship , which man can giue to him ; that is worship him not only with his Soule , but also externally with his body , and works , or deeds ( seeing Man consisteth of soule , and body ) But an Inuisible Church performeth it worship to God , only in hart , and minde : And with this I end , referring the last point to you ( Michaeas ) who is next to enter ( as I may say ) vpon the stage .

MICHAEAS .

Most willingly I come . For if we peruse the writings ( and especially of such , who haue bene of the chiëfest note , in the Protestant ( Church ) it is a world to see , how riotous , ( as it were ) and abounding they haue bene in their works , for proofe of the Churches Visibility at all times , and in respect of all men ; and this euen in the Conclusion it selfe , without any borowed sequels , though neuer so necessary . And first we find Caluin ( the halfe Arche of the Protestant Church ) thus to say : s s Instit● 4. 1. sect. 4. Nunc de Visibili Ecclesia &c. Now we determine to dispute of the Visible Church &c. extracuius gremium , nulla est speranda peccatorum remissio , out of whose bosome we cannot expect any remission of sinns . Neither is Melancton lesse full herein , who thus acknowledgeth : t t in concil . Theol. part . 2. Necesse est fateri esse Visibilem Ecclesiam &c. it is necessary to confesse the Church to be Visible ; Whither tendeth then haec portentosa oratio , this monstrous opinion , which denyeth the Church to be Visible ? Melancthon Further thus saith : u u in loc. com . edit. 1561. c. de Ecclesia . Whensoeuer we thinke of the Church , let vs behould the company of such men , as are gathered together , which is the Visible Church : Neither let vs dreame , that the Elect of God are to be found in any other place , then in this Visible Society &c. neither let vs imagine of any other Inuisible Church . Briefly the said Melancthon vrging diuers texts of Scripture in proofe of the Churches Visibility , thus concludeth : Hi & x x Melan. vbi supra . similes loci &c. These , and such lyke places ( of Scripture ) non de Ideä Platonica , sed de Ecclesia visibili loquuntur ; do not speake of Plato his Ideä , but of the Visible Church ▪ this Melancthon . The Learned Hunnius giueth his sentence in these words : God y y in his Treatise of freewill . p. in all times hath placed his Church , in a high place , and hath exalted it in the sight of all Prople , and Nations . Iacobus Andreas ( that famous Protestant ) thus ●umpeth with his brethren herein : We z z in his booke against Hosius p. 210. are not ignorant , that the Church must be a Visible company of teachers , and hearers . The eminet Dan●us●oth ●oth thus second the rest : Who a a in his booke of the visible Church . denyeth the true Church of God ( and that Visible ) to haue bene from the beginning of the world ; he without doubt sheweth himselfe to be ignorant in holy Schripture . M. Hooker ( your Countriman ) thus writeth of this point : God b b in his booke of Ecclesiast. policy . p. 126. hath had euer shall haue some Church Visible vpon earth .

Peter Martyr ( once your Companion , Ochinus ) confesseth the trueth herein in these words : We do c c in his Epist. annexed to his Common . places printed in English . p. 153. not appoint an Innisible Church ; but do define the Church to be a Congregation vnto which the faithfull may know , that they may safely adioyne themselues .

D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants , thus saying : d d l. 1. of the Church . c. 10. p. 19. The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible ; their profession knowne euen to the prophane , and wiched of the world ; And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible . Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible , but to the Elect only . The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point , saying : e e vbi supra . p. 21. It is true , that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing , that there is , and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church ; and that , not consisting of some few scattered Christians , without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments ; for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto ; how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion .

But for great breuity , and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants , D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene , who enthereth into heate , and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility . For thus he writeth : Cur ergo anxiè & curiosè probant , quod est a nobis numquam negatum ? Why do they ( meaning the Catholicks ) so painfully and curiously proue Iesuitis in part. 2. c. 3. that , which we neuer denyed ? And then after the said Doctour : Non enim clancularij secessus & conuocationes sunt Christianae , the society of Christians are not secret meetings . And then there againe , speaking of the Church militant : Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima , It is a manifest Conclusion , that the Church is to be conspicuous , and Visible . And thus farre ( Gentlemen ) of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks , the euer Visibility of the Church of God ; And this in so full a manner , as that the wicked ( as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh ) shall take full notice , and sight of it ; by force of which cleare testimonies , those few , and ignorant Protestants ( who confesse the Church to be Visible , but not in so full a maner ) are preuented of their poore refuge , saying : The Church is Visible , but not at all tymes ( as if the Church , like the Sea , enioyed a flux , and reflux of it Visibility ) knowne , but knowne only to the Elect , and faythfull : phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe , and mainly crossing , not only their owne more learned Brethren ; but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word , and other passages thereof ; to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers , and finally to al force of reason it selfe .

D. REYNOLDS .

Wee see ( Michaeas ) you are very conuersant in our owne Writers ; And now I hope this first point is perfected , Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye ; And though then be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine , once aduanced ; Neuerthelesse I trust , no learned , iudicious Man , perusing the former authorities at large , will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church ; being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion , and hauing no subsistence , or being .

MICHAEAS .

M. Doctour , you say truly . But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you , and these two graue men , to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ ( for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine , necessarily exacteth such a Visibility ( I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points ; the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances , which as my thoughts presage , wil be hereafter insisteth vpon , by you .

NEVSERVS .

You do well ( Michaeas ) to set downe those premonitions ; for we desire , that if there shal be any defect in the future examples , it may be fully displayed . Therefore proceed in your Method .

MICHAEAS .

The first then of these any maduersions , may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation , and backwardnesse in some Protestants ( a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein ) when this Catholicks presse them , to giue instances of Protestancy , and of the administration of the word , and Sacrements : For , seing they wil beare men in hand , that their Church hath euer continued Visible ; they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound ( as mantayning the affirmatiue part ) to vndertake the proose thereof . Now answearably to my former Assertion , I finde D Wutton g g In his answere to a Popish Pamphlet . p. 11. ( speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary ) thus to write : you wilt say , shew vs , where the fayth , and Religion , you professe , where held . Nay , proue you , that they were held no where &c. And what if it could not beshewed ? yet we know by the articles of our Creede , that there hath bene alwayes a Church , in which we say , this religion , we professe , must of necessity be held &c. This stands vpon you to disproue , which when you do by particular Records , you shall haue particular answere . Then which what can be spoken , first more absurdly , as expecting records of things , which neuer were in being ? He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe , and his fellowes only stand obliged . Secondly , what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages ? The like dispairing Answere D Fulke , * * D. Fulkde successione Eccles. p. 89. vseth vpon the same point , saying to his Aduersary : Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes , vah quam iniquum postulas ? Thou willest me to produce , and name those , which did lye secret through out the World ; how iniust a thing dost thou here demand ?

The second Obseruation . Seing the Church of God is at al times , and seasons ( without the least discontinuance thereof ) to be Visibile , and to enioy a publike administration of the Word , and Sacraments ( as aboue we al haue proued ) That therefore such Instances of Protestancy , which may be giuen by you hereafter ( supposing them to be true ) do but iustify Visibility of your Church , only for so long ( & no longer ) as the said Protestants did liue . And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy , for al ages since Christ ( & if you do fayle herein , but for any one only age ) it necessarily followeth ; that Church of the Protestants ( as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility ) is not the Church of Christ , described in the old Testament , and their prophecyed of , in so many different places

The third , and last Obseruation . That one may truly , and iustly be called a Protestant , two things ( among others ) must necessatily concurre : The one , that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy ; Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy ; and in the rest ( being more in number , and of greater importance ) to pertake with the Catholicks : seeing such a Man is rather ( as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion , then of Protestancy ) to be reputed a Catholicke , then a Protestant ; for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater , and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him , ther otherwise ; though to speake the truth , such a Man so beleeuing , is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant .

The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant , is , that he doth not hould pertinaciously any mayne Heresies , or Paradoxes wholy impugned , gainsaid , and contradicted , both by Protestant , and Catholicke . For this Man in this respecte , is to be styled rather an open Hereticke , then a Protestant , euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues . Therefore to conclude this last obseruation ; Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes ( or species ) do coople together , that which is ingendred , is of a third Kinde , diuers from them both : So here , that Religion or fayth , which is ( as it were ) propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions , must be a beliefe , different from them al. These things being premised , now M. Doctour or either of you two , may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age ; And I shall reply therto , as my iudgment , and reading wil best inable me .

OCHINVS .

I do like well of these your animaduertions ; and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect , and faulty instances , from such as be true , and perfect .

MICHAEAS .

Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing , I must demand of you al ( as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers ) whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren , in al the following passages betweene vs ?

D. REYNOLDS .

I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgments . And if you can conuince either our future examples , or our cause in generall , from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory . For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant ; that h h in Epist. Euchar . the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary , is of greatest authority . And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith : surely i i loc. tit . de Iudaeis . col. 390. among other testimonyes , that is of greatest weight , which is giuen by the Enemyes . And D. Bancrofs ( to omit al other Protestants in this point ) confirmeth the same , thus writing : Let k k In his suruey c. 〈◊〉 vs take hould of that , which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon , for a truth , that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto . Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers ; for Ireneus saith : It is an vnanswerable l l Lib. 4. c. 14. proofe , which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues . And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof : It is the m m Orat. de S. Basil . greatest cu●ning and wisdome of speech , to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words : So full you see ( Michaeas ) I am in this point . But now let vs come to the maine matter . To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene . And that I may the better marshal , and incampe ( as it were ) my examples , thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment , I will begin with the later times of the Church , and so ascend vpwards And first , for these last threescore yeares , the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England ) to forbeare all other Countreyes ) it Visibility , in it full Orbe ; all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse . Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time , this worthy Man Ochinus here present ( backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr ) did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation , as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne ( like roses after a long cold , or tempest , blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne ) with refe●erence of which Professours , Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe , the words of Aenias : n n Vir 〈…〉 Quorum pars magna fui .

MICHAEAS .

Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England , since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne , I easily grant they haue been most Visible ( as I gather out of your English Chronicles ) And thus I freely confesse , that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares : But where you say , that Protestancy ( I meane , as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught , at this day for Protestancy , and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect , & complete Protestant ) was fully taught , and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes , I absolutely deny .

OCHINVS .

Will you deny ( Michaeas ) so manifest a verity , whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times ; but ( If I may speake in modesty ) a greate Cause thereof ? What will you not deny , if you deny , such illustrious Trueths ? and what hope can we haue of your bettering , by this our disputation ?

MICHAEAS .

Good Ochinus , beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words ( the refuse of speech ) but if you can , with force of argument . I peremptorily deny the former point ; and for iustifying this my deniall , I wil recurre to the Communion Booke , set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation , and allowance ( as D. Doue , a Protestant affirmeth ) of Peter Martyr , your Cooperatour . Which Booke we must presume in al reason , was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme , established in those tymes ; and the rather considering , that the said Communion Booke ( for it greater authority ) was warranted in the Kings time , by Act of Parliament . Now this Communion Booke , or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes , being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points , with our Roman Religion . For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes ; c c sol . 156. and prescribeth , that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse . It commandeth d d sol . 132. consecration of the Water of Baptisme , with the signe of the Crosse . It alloweth of Chrisme ; e e fol. 132. as also of the Childs annoynting f f fol. 128. and Exorcisme . In that booke mention is made of prayer h h 116. for the dead ; and intercession , and i i fol. 117. offering vp of our Prayers by Angells . It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons , k k so . 1●9 . in time of necessity ; and the grace l l ibidem of that Sacrament ; as also Confirmation m m fo. 132. of children , and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth ( according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day ) the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar ; n n fol. 115. and sometimes to the People . o o fol. 117. It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome ) p p fol. 4. Alleluya should be said , from Easter to Trinity sunday . It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the q q fol. 138 & 139. Bryde , & brydegroome , with the signe of the Crosse . It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent , with these particular words : By r r fol. 14● . the authority committed vnto me . I absolute thee of all thy sinns . It mentioneth a speciall Confession s s fol. 142. of the sicke Penitent ; And lastly it commandeth the t t fol. 14● annoynting of the sicke Person , which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction . So little reason [ Ocbinus ] you see , you haue to affirme , that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same , which was mantained , and publikely established by King Edward .

OCHINVS .

Indeede I grant , the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament , but I instructed those , with whom I conuersed , to reiect those superstitions their confirmed .

D. REYNOLDS .

Well let that passe . It auayleth not much , whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes , or no ; since it is certaine , it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes , by the late afore raysing vp of Luther ; who was miraculously sent by the Holy Ghost , to illuminate the world with the Trueth of the Ghospell , and to discipate the clowds of the former Romish Errours . And I am assured , [ Michaeas ] you wil acknowledg Luther for a perfect Protestant in all points ; and consequently that the Protestant Church was in Luther , & his followers , most conspicuous , and Visible .

MICHAEAS .

I know , most of our new Ghospellers trauayle with you [ M. D. ] on this child ; to wit , that Luther did erect a perfect forme of Protestancy . By the which we may learne , that Affection , is not only blind but also deafe ; so loath you Protestants are either to see or heare any thing against Luther herein . Neuerthelesse I here auerre , it is impossible to iustify Luther for a true Protestant . I know also , that himselfe thus vaunteth ¶ ¶ Luther epist. ad Argentinenses . Christum a nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari ; where we may see , it is an accustomed blemish of most Innouatours , to become their owne Parasites .

NEVSERVS .

Strange Luther not a Protestant ? doth the Sunne shine ? Is the fier hot ? Doth the Sea ebb , and flow ? As certaine , as any of these so certaine , Luther was a perfect , and true Protestant . He was the Sunne , that did dispel in those dayes the mists of Antichristian darkenesse . From his preaching , and writings , a ●ier of Christian zeale was inkindled in thousands of mens soules , for the embrasing of the Ghospell of Christ ; And neuer did the torrent , and inundation of superstition , and Idolatry suffer a greater reflux a greater reflux and Ebb , then in his life time .

MICHAEAS .

Rhetorically amplifyed , Neuserus . But it is the weight of Reason , not a froath of empty words , which sway the iudicious . I grant that Luther did derogatize more articles of Innouation , and Nouelisme , now taught by Protestants , then any one Man afore him , did since the first plantation of Christianity : yet that Luther was a perfect , and articulate Protestant , and such , as the present Protestant Church ( with relation to the doctrine now taught by that Church ) may iustly , & truely acknowledg for a member thereof , I eternally denye , and do iustify my deniall out of his owne bookes ; so shall ¶ ¶ Touching the sentences alledged in this passage out of Luthers writings , the Reader is to obserue percisly , the editions of his bookes here quored ; seeing in some later editions , diuers of his said testimonyes are for very shame wholy omitted & left out . Luther prooue , that Luther was no Protestant . Now this I euict , ( according to my former premonitions , and cautions ) first , because Luther did euer hould ( euen after his reuolt from the Church of Rome ) diuers Catholicke opinions , or doctrines , then , and still now taught by the said Church . Secondly , in that Luther after his departure from the Church of Rome , did mantayne diuers grosse errours , or rather Heresies , or rather blasphemies ; and for such at this day condemned , both by Catholicks , and Protestants : So euident it will appeare , that Luther was too weake a bulke , to giue nurrishment to all those different plants , which now do stile themselues Protestants . And first touching seuerall Catholicke points , euer beleiued , & defended by Luther , euen to his last day , these following may serue , as Instances .

1. First he euer maintayned the Reall Presence in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist ( as the world knoweth ) . And his followers for their peculiar defence of this doctrine , are styled Lutherans by Swinglins , Caluin , & their party ; impugning the foresaid doctrine .

2. Luther also defended Prayer to Saints , of which point he thus wryteth : x x Luther in purgat . quorundam . A●ticul . & in episi . ad Georgium spalatinum . De intercessione diuorum , cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio , & iudico sanctos a nobis honorandos esse atque inuocandos .

3. He also taught the doctrine of Euangelicall Counsells ; to wit , that a man might do more , then he is commanded , as appeareth out of his Booke : de y y Art. 30. assertionibus .

4. The Doctrine of Purgatory , he taught ; of which see tom . 〈◊〉 . z z Conclus. 15. & in disput. Lipsica cum Echio . Wittenberg . in resolut . de Indulgentijs . And answerably to this ground he is confessed by Vrbanus Regius a a In 1. part . operum formula cantè loquendam cap. de Sanct. cultu● [ a Protestant ] to defend prayer for the Dead .

5. Luther further taught , and approued the vse of Images , as Beza b b In resp. ad art . Colloq . Montis● . part . alt. in prefat. witnesseth .

6. The indifferency of communion vnder one , or both kindes ( contrary to the doctrine of the Protestants , who place a necessity in both ) is allowed by Luther , in these words : quamuis c c Luther in epist. ad ad Bohemos pulcrum sit &c. Although it were very seemely , to vse both the species , or formes in the blessed Eucharist ; & though Christ commanded nothing herein , as necessary ; yet it were better to follow peace &c. then to contende about the formes .

7. Touching the making of the signe of the Crosse , vpon our foreheads ; Iohannes Creuelius ( a Lutheran ) thus witnesseth : Cum imus cubitum , ●iue surgimus electo , cruce nos iuxta Lutheri d d In his refutation Caeremoniarum Missae , printed Magd●● . 1603. p. 118. & aliorum piorum●● institutionem , signamus : When we go to bedd , or rise from thence , we do signe our selues with the signe of the Crosse , according to the aduice of Luther and other pious men . And Iohannes Maulius e e Loc. 7. com . pag. ●●6 . ( Luthers scholler ) thus writeth of Luther : respondet Lutherus , signo crucis facto , Deus me tuetitur : Luther answereth , at the making of the signe of the Crosse , God defend me .

8. Finally , to omit diuers other points , ( wherein Luther neuer dissented from the Church of Rome ) Luther euer mantained , that the gouerment of the Church is Monarchical & neither Aristocratical , nor Popular : of which point Luther thus writeth : Cum f f In loc. ●om . class. 1. c. 37. p. 107. Deus voluerit &c. Seing God would haue one Catholicke Church , throughout the whole World : it was needful , that one people , imo vnum aliquem patrem istius vnius populi elegi , yea some one father of this one people should be choosen , ad quem , & suos posteros spectant totus orbis , to whose care , and his successours the whole World should belong . And thus farre [ Gentlemen ] touching some tast , to shew , that Luther , euen after his forsaking of the Catholicke , and Roman Church , did neuerthelesse still retaine , and belieue , diuers Catholicke doctrines : and consequently was no no entire , and perfect Protestant .

D. REYNOLDS .

I confesse indeede , that Luther ( as appeareth by his owne writings ) did not reueale to the new World ( as I may tearme it ) all the Euangelical Trueth : the fuller discouery of some parts thereof , being reserued for our later dayes . And though his owne Religion was not ( through want of beliefe of some Trueths ) perfectly good ; yet I am assured , It is not by his pesitiuely mantayning of any one errour ( then in what he was nuzled by the Church of Rome ) in any sort euill .

MICHAEAS .

This your reply is impertinent : for here the Question is only , whether Luther in respest of his faith , was such an absolute Protestant , as at this day our Gospellers repute for a good , & sound Protestant . Yet that you may see your owne errour otherwise , in ouer highly preiudging of Luthers Religion . I wil here particularize out of his owne writings , and other Protestants relations , certaine Heresies and blasphemies ; neuer by him after recaled , and incompatible with saluation , ( for modicum * * 〈◊〉 . Cor. ● . firmentum totam massam corrumpit ) which he did egurgitate out of his impure stomak . From whence we may inferre , that with lesse reason he may be vrged for a Protestant .

1. And First , I wil here alleadg his impious doctrine ( wherin he labored to cut , and wound Christian Religion , euen in it maister-veine ) touching the most Blessed Trinity , concerning which he thus speaketh : The g g Sorelateth Zwinglius of Luther tom. 2. in respons . ad confut . Lutheri f● 474. Diuinity is threefould , as the three Persons be &c. And from hence the reason may well be , why Luther h h Luth. in encherid . praecum . anni 1543. expungeth out of the Litany , this verse : Holy Trinity , one very God , haue mercy vpon vs . And hereupon he is not afraid to say , that the word . Trinity , i i Luth. in postill . maiori Basili 〈…〉 apud Heruagium in enarrat . Euang. Dominicae Trinit. is but an humane inuention , and soundeth coldly . And finally , he concludeth , that his soule hateth the word : Homousion , or Consubstantiale ; For thus he writeth : Anima k k Contra Iacobum Latomum , tom . 2. Wittenberg . latine edit. anno . 1551. me a odit Homousion , & Optimè exigerunt Ariani , ne vocem illam prophanam & nouam regulis fidei statu● liceret . My very soule ha●eth the word : Homousion , or Consubstantiale ; And the Arians , not without reason , required , that it should not be lawfull to put this prophane , and new Word ( meaning , Homousios or consubstantialis ) among the rules of fayth . Luthers blasphemy against the B. Trinity was such , and so odious , that euen l l Zwinglius tom. 2. in respons . ad Confess . Lutheri . Zwinglius did purposely write against Luther touching this very point .

2. Touching the euent of things , Luther houldeth ( contrary to all Christian faith ) that all things come to passe , through a certaine Stoical , and Fatal necessity ; for he defending this Heresy thus writeth : Nullius m m In assert . damnat . per Leonem , art. 36. est in manu &c. It is in no mans power , to thinke good , or euil : but al things ( as Wicleffs article , condemned at Constance , did rightly teach ) proceed from absolute Necessity . And againe : n n Luth. deseruo arbitrio c. 32. fateor articulum &c. I do confesse Wicleffs article of all things , comming to passe by Necessi 〈◊〉 ▪ to haue 〈◊〉 falsly condemned , in the conuenticle of Constance .

3. To the dishonour of Christ his Passion ( who was cloathed with Essentiall Maiesty and as intimating the insufficiency of it , for the redemption of mankinde ; he teacheth , that Christ not only suffered in body , but also his Diuinity suffered : for thus he writeth Cùm o o Luther in Confess . Maiore in Caena Domini . credo , quod sola humana Natura pro me passa est , Christus vilis , noc magni praetij saluator est &c. If I beleiue , that only the Humane Nature of Christ suffered for me ; then is Christ a Sauiour , but of a base , and small worth ; and himselfe nedeth a Sauiour . And Luther speaking of this point in an other place , thus reprehendeth the Zwinglians : The p p Vide Concil. part. 2. Zwinglians did contend against me most pertinaciously , that the Diuinity of Christ could not suffer : A doctrine , so blasphemous , as that it was not refuted only by the Zwinglians in Luthers dayes ( as himselfe confesseth ) but also euen by Beza q q In epist. theologie epist. 60. such chaynes you see of blasphemies ( one stil following an other ) are wouen in Luthers faith , and Religion .

4. Touching the Administration of the Word , and Sacraments ; Luther teacheth , that al men ( and women also ) haue authority , & power to administer them : These be his owne words : The first r r Luth. tom. 2. l. de ministris Eccles. institue 〈…〉 lis fol. 368. 369. ●id . l. de abrog . Missa priuata tom. 2. fol. 249. & lib. de captiuit . Babilon . c. de ordine . office of a Priest is to preach the Word &c. But this is common to al : Next , to baptize ; and this also al may do , euen women &c. The third office is to consecrate bread , and wine : But this also is common to al , no lesse , then Priests ; And this I auouch by the authoritie of Christ himselfe , saying : do this in remembrance of me . This Christ speake to al then present , and to come afterwards . If then that , which is greater , then al , be giuen indifferently to al Men , and Women ( I meane , the word , and Baptisme ) then that , which is lesse ( I meane to consecrate the supper ) is also giuen to them . Thus Luther . Yea Luther proceeded so farre herein , as that , as D. Couell witnesseth , he was not afraid to affirme , that the Sacraments s s These be D. Couelis words in his defence of M. Hooker art. 15. p. 101. were effectual though , administred by Satan himselfe . With D. Couell agreeth the Protestant Hospintan , thus writing : Lutherus t t In hist. Sacrament . part . altera fol. 14. ●o vsque progreditur &c. Luther proceedeth so farre herein , that he maintained the Sacrament to be a true Sacrament , ●●iamsi a Diabolo conficeretur , though it were to be consecrated by the Deuil .

5. For absolute deniall of tempor all Magistrats ( an Heresy indifferently condemned , both by Catholicks , and Protestants ) we finde Luther thus to write : Among u u Luth. de seculari potest in tom. 6. german . Christians no man can , or ought to be a Magistrate ; But euery one is to other equally subiect &c. And agayne : As Christ x x Luth. in tom . 7. Wit. tenberg . fol. 327. cannot suffer himselfe to be tyed , & bound by lawes &c. So also ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them .

6. Touching Luthers deniall of certayne parcels of Scripture : And first the Epistle of S. Iames is called by Luther , Contentious , y y Luther praesai . in epist. Iacobi edit . 4. Ienensi . swelling , strawy , and vnworthy an Apostolicall spirit . The booke of the Apocalyps is also reiected by Luther , by the acknowledgment of Bullenger , thus writing hereof : Doctour ( z ) Vpon the Apocalyps englished c. 1. serm. 1. fo. 2. Martin Luther , hah ( as it were ) sticked this booke , with a sharpe preface , set before his first Edition in Duch ; for which his iudgment , good , and learned Men were offended with him . Hereunto I will adde Luthers contempt of Moyses , and some of the Apostles : Against Moyses he thus writeth : a a Tom. 3. Wittenberg . in Psal. 45. fol. 423. Habuit Moyses labia in faecunda , irata &c. And againe : Moyses habuit labia diffusa felle & ira . Touching the Apostles , he thus controuleth S. Peter ; S. Peter b b In epist. ad Gala● . 1. tom . 5. Wittenb . of anno 1554. fol. 290. did liue , and teach , extra verbum Dei ; besides the word of God . Thus we may see , how no wynde was able to weigh downe the eares of Luthers pryde .

7. Luther also taught an Heresy , whereby the Propagation of Christian Religion is much endangered ; to wit , That it was not lawfall to wage warre against the Turke : an errour ; which enen the greatest Idolatours of Luther haue mainly condemned . Luthers words are these : c c Luth. in tom . 2. Wittemberg In assert . damnat . per Leon● decimum assert . 34. Praeliari contra Turcas , est repugnare Deo visitanti iniquitates nostras per illos . To wage warre against the Turke , is to resist God visiting our sinn●s by them : A point so confessed , that Erasmus , thus writeth of the consequence , and effects of Luthers doctrine : Many d d In ep. ad fratres Inferiori● Germaniae . of the Saxons following herein , that firct doctrine of Luther , denyed to Caesar , and King Ferdinand ayde against the Turke &c. And said ; they had rather fight for a Turke not Baptized , then for a Turke Baptized ; meaninge , the Emperour . Thus Erasmus .

8. Touching Fayth , and good workes , Luther taught an Heresy , disallowed by all learned Protestants . For Luther teacheth , as followeth : It is e e Luther vpon the Galat. englished , in c. 2. And see Luther in his Sermons englished fol. 204. impiety to affirme , that fayth without Charity , iustifyeth not . Nay Luther proceedeth further , thus writing : Fides nisi sit sine &c. Except f f Luther tom . 1. Prop. 3. fayth be without the least good works , it doth not iustify ; nay it is not fayth . And thereupon , the more to debase good works , he thus saith : g g In his Sermons englished p. 147. Works take their goodnes of the Worker ; And h h Luth. ibid. pag. 276. no worke is disallowed of God , vnlesse the authour thereof be disallowed before . Here now I end touching Luther , Where you may perceaue [ Neuserus ] that this your Sunne ( of which you afore vaunted ) prooues to be but a fading Comet ; the fyery zeale ( you spoake of ) but a turbulent combustion se● on flame by Luther in subiects minds , against all Christian Magistracy ; and the reflux , which Luther ( as you pretend ) caused in the Church of Rome , was instantly attended on , with a flux and ouerflowing of many dreadfull , and blasphemous doctrines , then broached , and defended by him . But here I referre two points to the mature Consideration of you [ M. Doctour ] and these two learned men , here present . First , whether Luther can truely be challenged at this day for a perfect Protestant ; ( and consequently , whether the Visibility of the Protestant Church , can be truely iustifyed in him ) considering , both the seuerall Catholicke Doctrines , as also the many explorat Heresyes , and blasphemyes , he maintayned euen after his reuolt from the Papacy . The second ( though but incidentall at this present ) whether it sorteth to the sweete proceeding of God , to vse as his Instrument , for the reedifying of his Church ( admitting it afore ruined ) a man , who practized his penne ( and this after his supposed calling ) to the wronging of Christian Faith , and Charity ; to the fortifying of the state , and Empyre of Christs greatest Enemy ; to the expunging of Gods sacred Writ , and conuitiating of his greatest Seruants : to the disauthorizing of all Christian Princes , and Ciuill Magistrates : to the dishonoring , and debasing of the Sacraments : to the disualewing of the infinit worth , and price of Christ his Passion : to the vphoulding , and maintayning of a stoicall , and fatall Necessity in all things : And lastly to the absolute deniall of the most Blessed , and holy Trinity . Now ( Gentlemen all ) if you want a Protestant , to be the square , and rule of Protestancy , I am content ( in this your penury ) that you take Luther for a Protestant .

OCHINVS .

I am amazed to here of these Points : and I would not beleiue them : but that Luthers owne wrytings are yet extant , & ready to charge him with them .

NEVSERVS .

I condemne my selfe [ Michaeas ] of my former rash , and vnexamined assent , giuen in behalfe of Luther : and I blame my owne hasty Credulity But by this I may learne , that the attendant of Wisdome , is slowe beliefe . But , M. Doctour , we would wish you , to ascend to higher times .

D. REYNOLDS .

I will . And I will ascend sofely and by small degrees . Only afore in part of excuse ( though not in defence ) of Luthers errours . I must put you in minde [ Michaeas ] that the purest gold Oare is mixt with some dresse : the fayrest rose beset with sharpe pricks , and diuers auncient and reuerend Fathers had their ouersights . But to proceede higher : what say you [ Michaeas ] of the twenty yeares first before Luther ? Do you not thinke , that there were then many markably , and visibly knowne , who professed the present Protestant faith , and Religion ?

MICHAEAS .

M. Doctour . If you can euict to much , then you are to name those many Professours : if not many , some few : at least some one or other . If you can , I now vrge you to it . But it seemeth by your silence , being thus prouoked , you cannot name any one Protestant then liuing : so rare in those dayes ( though so late ) were the byrds of such an Aëry .

D. REYNOLDS .

Do you not know , that Bucer , Melancthon , and Pelican , were professed Protestants , euen before Luthers breaking with the Church of Rome ?

MICHAEAS .

Indeede D. Morton i i In his Apol. Cathol. p. 42. in extreme penury , and for maine releife of his Cause , is not abashed to nam the said three men for Protestants , before Luthers reuolt from the Pope : Whereas it is certaine , that all these were originally Catholicks : & only vpon Luthers fale , did after adioyn themselues to him .

I here further tell you , that it is repugnant to Common sense , that any Protestants , or any administration of the word , and Sacraments , should be within the twenty yeares , next afore Luthers Apostasy ( for I can tearme it no better ) and yet no memory to be extant thereof , in any one Country or other , throughout all Christendome ; especially seeing all Occurrents thereabouts ( if there were any ) should haue bene performed in the memory of Man , and consequently lesse subiect to forgetfulnesse . Againe , you pretend , you can exemplify in Protestants for all former auncient times ; and yet you faile euen in this last age : Belike you will perswade vs , that our knowledg of these matters , is like to some bad eyes , which see things a farre of , better , then neerer at hand .

Furthermore , I here aske the reason , that if any such examples of protestancy had bene immediatly before Luthers reuolt , why at least did not Luther , Zwinglius and the rest , that adioyned themselues to him , make mention of some such Protestants ?

D. REYNOLDS .

The Protestant Church doubtlesly was in those dayes , but it was in solitude : And herein I ioyne in iudgment with D. Whitakers , thus censuring of this point : Ante k k Lib. de Eccles. contra● Bellarm. controuers . 2. quaest. 5. Lutheri tempora , latebat Ecclesia in solitudine , Before the times of Luther , the Church lay hid in the desert .

MICHAEAS .

I grant , the Doctour answereth so ; but why doth not he ( being much prouoked by his Aduersary thereto ) alleadg as much as one Man , who was a Protestant before Luthers chang ? Againe I demande , why did those supposed Protestants immediatly before Luthers dayes , lye so hid and vnknowne , at Luthers resing ? If you say for feare of Persecution ( for no other pretext you can alledge ) I reply , that feare of Persecution could not be pretended to be a let after Luthers open reuolt ; but that the Protestants ( if any such were ) might securely then haue stept out , and publikely haue ioyned themselfs with Luther ; Considering that then diuers magistrats and common-wealths had openly vndertaken the patronage of Luthers doctrine and Religion ; And who obserueth not , that the floud of any doctrine in faith is more or lesse , as it is gouerned with the ful or wayne of secular Authority ?

But to vrge a more irrefragable proofe , for this matter . This point ( to wit , that not any one Protestant was to be found , through the whole World , immediatly before the dayes of Luther ) is so cleare and vndeniable , as that we find the same granted , by a whole volley of Confessions , proceeding from the Protestants owne penns . For thus ( for example ) D. Iewel acknowledgeth : The l l In his Apolog. of the Church part 4. c 4. truth was vnknowne at that tyme , and vnheard of , when Martin Luther and Hulderick Zwinglius , first came vnto the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel . And vpon this ground it is , that Bucer m m In ep. ann. 36. ad Episc. Hereford . stileth Luther : The first Apostle to vs , of the reformed doctrine . Yea Conradus Slussenberg ( the Lutheran ) thus vehemently contesteth this point , saying : It is n n In theolog . Caluinist . l. 2. fol. 130. impudency to affirme , that many learned Men in Germany before Luther , did hould the doctrine of the Gospel : With whom in like manner conspireth Benedictus o o Tract . de Eccles. pag. 145. Morgenternensis , thus writing : It is ridiculous to say , that any before the tyme of Luther , had the purity of the Gospel . Thus these Protestants : from whose authorityes being thus fully recited , I gather [ M. D. ] this Resultancy ; That Luthers reuolt was so farre , from prouing the contemning of the Visibility of the Protestant Church , or the administration of the word and Sacraments ; as that it proueth a manifest interruption , or rather a nullity thereof . It being so fully confessed , that at the first appearance of this Mis●reant of Saxony , ( I meane of Luther , who first poizned the Duchy of Saxony with his doctrine ) there was not any one Protestant ( much lesse , a Protestant Church , preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments ) vpon the face of the earth , to be seene or heard of : But hereat I meruayle not , since Philosophy reacheth vs ( to speake by all ●sion ) that where the Obiect is wanting , there the sense suspendeth it operation .

DOCTOVR REYNOLDS .

Admitting all that you say , to be true , touching the first twenty yeares before Luther ; yet it is most eu●cent , that Iohn Hus ( who liued anno . 1400. and not very many yeares before those 20. yeares ) was a good and true Protestant ; for him I fynd registred for a most holy Martyr by M. Fox , p p Act. mon. pag. 190. and D. q q In his Treatise of Antichrist p. 40. Downeham .

MICHAEAS .

Iohn Hus did liue in the yeare . 1400. Who first was a Catholicke Priest . The cause of his death , was in that he taught the Necessity of Communion vnder both kinds , and the seditious doctrine touching Princes , Bishops , and Priests , being in mortall sinne .

But to make a more particular dissection of this Instance ; The Articles , wherein his followers ( the Bohemians ) dissented from the Church of Rome , were these following , which M. Fox thus relateth : The Bohemians r r Act. Mon. p. 260. being demanded in what poynts , they did differ from the Church of Rome ; the only Propositions , which they propounded , were these foure Articles first , Communion vnder both kinds ; The second , that al Ciuil dominiou was forbidden to the Clergy ; The third , that the preaching of the Word was free for all Men , and in al places ; The fourth , that open crymes are in no wyse to be suffered , for auoyding of greater euill . Thus M. Fox of the Hussite , who ( we see ) as comparting with the Church of Rome in all other points , cannot possibly be alledged , for , visible members of the Protestant Church .

D. REYNOLDS .

But what do you say of Iohn Hus himselfe , was not he a Protestant , and dyed in defence of the Protestant fayth ?

MICHAEAS .

M. D The testimonies of Luther and M. Fox shall decide this point betweene vs . And first M. Fox thus saith of him . Quid s s Fox in Apocalyps c. 11. pag. 290. vnquam docuit , aut in concilio defendit Hussius &c. What did Hus defend at any tyme , or taught in the councel , wherein he might not seeme euen superstitiously to agree with the Papists ? What doth the Popish fayth teach concerning Transubstantiation , which he did not in like sort confirme with the Papists ? Who did celebrate Masses more religiously , then he ? Or who , more chastly , did keep the vowes of Priestly single life ? Add hereto , that touching free●●l , fayth , prede●●nation , the cause of iustification , merit of Works , what other thing taught he , then was taught at Rome ? What Image of any saint did he cast out at Bethleem ? therefore what can we say , ( for which he deserued , death ) touching the which , he is not a like to be condemned with the Sea of Rome , or with it to be freed and absolued ? Thus far M. Fox , with whom agreeth . Luther , thus writing of Hus: The t t In colloquijs Germ. c. de Antichristo . papists burned Hus , when as he departed not a fingars breadth from the papacy ; for he taught the same , which the papists do ; only he did find fault with their vices and wicked life ; agaynst the Pope he did nothing . Thus Luther .

Besides all the Catholicke doctrines , mantained by Hus , he taught ( as aboue is touched ) the Heresy of Wiclef , to wit , that there are no Princes , Priests , or Bishopps , whyle they are in mortall sinne , as M. Fox u u Act. mon. 230. Art. 1. & 2. recordeth ; with whom agreeth the Protestant Osiander , thus wryting : Nullus est Dominus ciuilis , nullus est Praelatus , nullus est Episcopus , dum est in mortali (x) In epitom . Cent. 15. p. 469. peccato : Haec propositio approhart non potest ; sed passus est Ioannes Hus hac in parte aliquid humani : There is no Ciuill Prince , no Prelate , or Bishop , whiles he is in mortall sinne : This proposition cannot be approued ; but Iohn Hus suffered herein the infirmity of Man . Now I cannot , but admire the incredible boldnes of M. Fox , who acknowledging the former Heresy mantayned by Hus , but especially granting ( as shewed out of his owne words ) that Hus did hould all the cheise points and frame of the present Roman Religion , was neuerthelesse not ashamed to pronounce Iohn Hus , for a most holy Martyr ( as aboue is expressed ) meaning a martyr of his owne Protestant Church . So gladly you Protestants ( for the supporting of the continuance and visibility of your Church ) do make clayme , to any Catholicke , or hereticke whosoeuer ; who in one only point of Religion , ( though dissenting in all others ) may seeme to compart and interleague with you . Thus far of Hus , whom to legitimate , for a Protestant , you see , it is impossible .

OCHINVS .

I must here agree in iudgment with Michaeas . And this Instance had far better bene forborne , then obtruded ; And indeed it is no small blemish to our Church , to insist in such weake and insufficient examples . But [ M. Doctour ] Let vs entreate you , to rise vp to Higher tymes in your discourse .

D. REYNOLDS .

I will satisfy your desire . The next then , in whom I will instance , shal be our owne Contryman Wicklef : Whom all the world ( I hope ) will euen dispose , that he was a perfect Protestant ; and that himselfe and his followers enioyed the administration of the Word and Sacraments ; the practize of which is acknowledged to be an essentiall note of the Churches Visibility . This my opinion touching Wicklef , being a Protestant , is not myne alone ; but it is warranted with the authorityes of M. Fox , y y Act. mon. printed . 1596. pag. 391. and the learned z z In his booke of the state of the Church pag. 418. Crispinus .

MICHAEAS .

Indeede [ M D. ] M. Fox & Crispinus ( I grant ) do so teach ; but how truly , Obserue , what followeth ; and then geue vp your eauen and impartiall iudgment . And yet before I come to the tuche of this point , I must put you in mind , what thy two former Protestants grant in the places by you cited , that at Wickleffs reuolt ( supposing him to be a Protestant ) the Protestant Church was wholy inuisible ; for thus M. Fox a a Fox vbi suprà . writeth : In the tyme of horrible darknes , when there seemed in a manner to be no one so little sparke of pure doctrine , left or remayning ; Wicklef by Gods prouidence rosevp , through whom the Lord would first awaken & raize vp againe the World . Thus he . This Wicklef being an Englishman ( as you know , M. D. ) was a Catholicke , Priest , and Person of Lutterworth in Leicestershirs ; and as Stow b b In his Annals of England printed 1591. p. 425. relateth , He first inueighed against the Church of Rome , because he had bene depriued by the Archbishop of Canterbury , from a certaine benefice . He liued , anno . 1370. Now that Wicklef cannot be truly claymed for a Protestant , I proue , in that ( besides he was a Catholicke Priest , and no Church of the Protestants , then knowne to him ) he still retayned many Catholicke Opinions ; and withall taught diuers notorious Heresyes ,

Touching his Catholicke Opinions still beleiued by him , I will alledge diuers out of his owne Wrytings ; First he beleiued seauen Sacraments , thus writing of them : Quaedam c c Wicklef in postilla super 15. cap. Marci mentioneth all the seauen sacraments . And in postilla super 1. Cor. cap. 1. he writeth , as is here set downe . sacramentaper se promulgauit Christus &c. Certaine sacraments Christ did promulgate by himself , as Baptisme , the Eucharist , the sacrament of Orders , and of Penance ; certaine also by his Apostles , as the sacraments of Confirmation , and of Extreme Vnction .

He also beleiued the rites and Ceremonyes of the Masse , as appeareth in his booke de Apostasiac. 18.

Touching his praying to our Blessed Lady , he thus in feruour writeth : d d Wicklef serm. de Assumpt . Mariae . Hic videtur miht , quod impossibile est nospraemiari sine Mariae suffragio : It seemeth impossible to me , for any man to be rewarded , without the suffrage ( or prayers ) of Mary , He acknowledged the worship of Relicks & Images , of which he thus saith : e e Wicklef de Eucharist . c. 9. Ador aneus imagines , vnde & signa &c. conceditur it aque , quòd reliquae Imagines &c. sunt cum prudentia ador andae : We worship Images , as signes &c. Therfore it is granted , that relickes , Images &c. are to be worshipped with prudence .

Touching Merit of Works , and works of Supererogation ; Wicklefe was so forward in defence thereof ; that Stow thus writeth of him : f f In his Annals printed 1592. p. 426. Wicklefe and his disciples went in course russet garments , downe to the heele● , seemed to contemne all temporall goods , for the loue of eternall riches ; adiayned himselfe to the begging fryars ; approouing their pouerty , and extolling their perfection . He thus teaching with the Catholicks , that a Religious , and voluntary pouerty , is the greatest abundance . Besides these his seuerall Catholicks doctrines , He defended diuers grosse Herefyes . He first g g As witnesseth O●iand . Cent. 15. p. 457. taught , that all things came to passe by an absolute and stoicall Necessity : He condemned lawfull Oathes , sauoring ( as Osiander saith ) h h Cent. 6. 10. 11 &c. p 459. a●t. 43. of Anabaptisms . Touching Ecclesiasticall persons , thus writeth i i In ep. ad Fredericum Miconium . Melancthon of Wicklefe : Wicklefus contendit presbiteris non licere , vt possideant quicquam proprium ; Wicklefe mantayneth , that it is not lawfull for Priests , to possesse any thing in propriety . He further taught euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox k k Act mon. p 96. art. 4. ( the Canonizer of the Pseudomartyrs of his Religion ) that if a Bishop or a Priest be in deadly sinne , he doth not order , consecrato , or baptize ; Which point is also verifyed of Wicklefe , by l l Epitom . h●st . Cent. 9. 10. 11. a●t. 4. Osiander . Furthermore , Wicklefe did not only ascribe ( with Catholicks ) merit to works , done in state of grace ; but he was so passionatly resolute herein , as that ( as m m Tom. 3. c. 7 8. 9. Waldensis witnesseth ) he taught merit of works , done by force of nature , with the Pelagians . Finally , (n) Osiander in epitom . hist. Cent. 9. 10. ●1 . 12. Wicklefe taught , that there is no Ciuill magistrate , while he is in mortall sinne ; and this so grosly , that Melancthon thus censureth him : De Domino ciuili , sophisticè planè , & seditiose vixatur ; Wicklefe disputeth of the ciuill magistrate sophistically and seditiously : (o) M●lancthon . vbi supra And according to this his doctrine in speculation , his followers in great p p As witnesseth S●ow , vbi supra . numbers did rise against the King ; And for such their treason , diuers of them were apprehended , and executed .

But to contract this point , touching the Heresyes of Wicklefe ; This matter is so euident and confessed by diuers learned Protestants , as that Pantaleon ( a Protestant ) placeth Wicklefe in the Catalogue of Hereticks , thus writing ; Iohannes q q In Chronol. p. 119. Wicklefus cum Lolhardis , in Anglia suam Haeresim praedicat ; Iohn Wicklefe di●●lgeth with the Lolhards , his Heresy in England . And Melancthon thus writeth in generall of him : r r Melancthon . vbi supra . I haue found in Wicklefe many errours , wherby a Man may iudge of his spirit . Finally M. Fox s s Act. Mon. p. 95. ( though at other times , gracing him with the title of a Protestant ) confesseth , That Wicklefe vsed often for feare of persecution and danger , to dissemble his Religion ; Which no man ( in the iudgment both of Catholicke and Protestant ) professing any conscience , can lawfully do . Thus much touching Wicklefe .

OCHINVS .

M. Doctour . I must confesse ( euen betweene God and my conscience ) that hitherto the Vessell , from whence you haue drawne all your former wine ( I meane examples of Protestancy ) is not good and pure : But I hope , we shall haue reason to say ( in regard of your other more conuincing Instances , hereafter to follow ) with the cheife steward of the feast in the Gospell : t t Ioan. ● . Thou hast kept the good wine , vntill now . But howsoeuer it is , Truth is not so feeble , as to be forced to leaue ( for it owne supporting ) vpon the cruches of any one mans ability .

NEVSERVS .

Truly hitherto , the Examples of protestancy are insufficient ( for how can they be reputed Protestants , who not only maintayne the most articles of the Romish Religion ; but also do pertinaciously iustify diuers confessed Heresyes ? ) Neuerthelesse , I doubt not but Ochinus and my selfe shal be able to proue , that the Protestant Church was enriched at all tymes , with many of the faythfull ; though not alwayes it was so gloriously subiect to the eyes of others . But [ M. D. ] what do you say to the tymes precedent to the former ? For we are most willing , that Michaeas should haue good satisfaction giuen him herein .

D. REYNOLDS .

I say , that in those tymes florished not two or three , but many hundred Protestants . For then liued Waldo , from whom , as from a most worthy stemme ( his branches ) the Waldenses are descended . All which ( both the father and the Sonns ( euen in the iudgment of M. Fox ) u u Act. Mon. p. 628. were perfect Protestants . In those tymes also were the Albigenses , confessed for good Protestants . Also the Henricians or Apostolici , Peter Bruts . learned Almericus , and diuers others liued about those dayes : Indeede there were so many Protestants in those tymes , as I am partly troubled , where to beginne to reckon them ; but may here say with the Poet : Inopem me copia fecit .

MICHAEAS .

Thus [ M. D. ] are but ostentations ; And I see , that saying verifyed in you : Many through loue , do hurt themselfs . For you through your ouer much affecting , to preserue the honour of your Church , do indeed ) by prostituting diuers Pseudoprotestants ) indignify your Church : For all these , whom you now haue alledged , are merely Excentrous ( as I may tearme them ) & irregular Sectaries ; their doctrines indifferently mouing about the Poles of Catholicke Religion , Protestancy , & Sensuality .

And first touching Waldo . It is certaine , that he was a Lay-man of Lyons in France ; vnlearned , but rich , and gaue money for the translating of the Scripture into his owne vulgar tonge . Of him the Waldenses are deriued about the yeare 1218.

Now that neither Waldo , nor the Waldenses ( his followers ) were Protestants , ( though they be much vrged for such , by many Protestants ) is seuerall wayes prooued .

First , in that they did still hould diuers Catholicke points , as the Reall presence in the Blessed Sacrament , of whom concerning the same point Caluin thus writeth : x x Epist. 244. Formula Confessionis &c. The forme of the Confession of the Waldenses doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation , who do not confesse , that the breade is become truly the body of Christ . They also maintayned seauen Sacraments , the doctrine of Vowes , of single life , and of Purgatory ; with all which doctrines Benedictus y y In tract . de Eccles. p. 124. Morgenstrensis ( a Lutheran ) chargeth the Waldenses , and reprehendeth them for the same .

Lastly , they were so full in defending the doctrine of merit of works ; as that , as D. Humfrey z z In I●●uitism . part. 2. rat. 3 p. 270. And M. Fox Act. mon. p. 628. writeth of Waldo ; He did forsake all things , that being poore , he might follow Christ , & the Euangelicall Perfections . And in the end , it did so faule out , that his schollers and disciples were an Order of begging Fryars , and commonly called : the Poore Men of Lyons . And did professe ( as D. Humfrey a a D. Humfrey vbi supra . affirmeth ) a kind of Monasticall life ; And finally labored to Pope Innocentius ( the third ) to haue their Order confirmed ; but could not preuayle , as Vspergensis witnesseth in his Chronicle .

Secondly , The Heresyes mantayned by Waldo and his followers are such , as that you [ M. D. ] in regard of their defence of them , cannot challenge them for Protestants .

For first , they taught , that maryed Persons mortally sinned , in hauing the Act of Matrimony , without hope of Procreation , as testifyeth Illyricus b b Illyricus in catalog . teftium verirat . p. 743. the Protestant . They also did hould all embracements ( marke this gotishe doctrine ) and things donne aboue c c Illyrecus vbi supra . pag. ibid. the girdle as touching , kissing , words , compression of the papps &c. to be done in charity : They further taught , that neither Priests d d Illyrecus vbi supra . p. 760. nor ciuill Magistrats being guilty of mortall sinne , did enioy their dignity , or were to be obeyed : That e e Ibid p. 731. et p. 745. Laymen and Women might consecrate and preach : That Clergy f f Ibid. p. 729. Men ought to haue no possessions : That men g g Ibid. p. 735. et 756. ought not to sweare in any case : They h h Illyric . ibid p. 734. went to the Catholicke Churches dissemblingly , & confessed & communicated dissemblingly : Finally ( to omit some others ) they condemned all Princes i i Illyric . ibid p. 735. et 755. and Iudges . And thus far ( M. D. and you two learned Men ) to proue , that Waldo and his followers were no Protestants , ( though it is not denyed , but that some one poynt or other of protestancy , they might mantaine ) and consequently , that the example of them is defectiue , to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in their dayes .

NEVSERVS .

But what say you [ Michaeas ] of the Albigenses , and the rest aboue mentioned by M. Doctour ? Were not all they Protestants ?

MICHAEAS .

I grant , they are marshalled among Protestants by D. 1 1 D. Fulke against the Rhemish Testarnent in Apoc. 12. Fulke and D. 2 2 D. Abbots in his second partof the defence &c. printed 1607. p. 55. Abbots . But here [ M. D. ] you are either deceaued , or ( which I thinke not ) intend to deceaue . For here the Albigenses are brought for shew only of greater variety of dishes , the better to furnish the table of Protestancy : Whereas indeede they were of the same Sect with the Waldenses , or rather the same Men ; according to the iudgments of D. Abbots and D. Fulke . For D. Abbots thus writeth : k k In his booke against D. Hill his reasons . p. 57. These Leonists , or poore Men of Lyons , and waldenses , and Albigenses were the same Men ; but diuersly , and vpon diuers occasions tearmed by the Romish Sinagogue : And D. Fulke sayth the same in these words : l l De success . Ecclesiast. contra stapletonum . p. 332. They are called the Waldenses by the vulgar Papists ; as also by others , they are named the poore Men of Lyons , Leonists , Albigenses , or by what other name , it pleased the Sycophants of Antichrist .

Now these Albigenses ( be who they will , eyther the same with the Waldenses , or not ) as they mantayned some points of Protestancy ; so with all euen by the testimony of Osiander m m In Cent. 13. l. 1. c. 4. pag. 329. the Protestant , they taught diuers execrable Heresyes . The words of Osiander are these : Albigensibus dogmata haec attribuuntur ; Duo esse principia ; Deum videlicet bonum , & Deum malum , hoc est Diabolum &c. These opinions are ascribed to the Albigenses : That there are two Principles ; to wit a good God , and a bad God , which is the Deuill ; and who created all bodyes , as the good God did all soules &c. They do reiect Baptisme , and they say , to go to Churches , and to pray in them , is not profitable : &c. They condemne Mariage , & do allow ( as holy ) promiscuous concubitus , al promiscuous lying togeather , how wicked soeuer &c. Thy deny the resurrection of the body , & that Christ was true Man . Thus far Osander , who also sayth : The opinions of the Albigenses are absurd , wicked , & hereticall ; & finally , tearmeth their spirits : an Anabaptisticall furye . And D. Cowper n n In his dictionarium historicum , annexed to his thesaurus printed anno . 15-78 . at the word : Albigenses . of Winchester , maketh like mention of their absurd Heresyes . A point so acknowledged , that D. Iewell wholy disclaymeth from the Albigenses , as Protestants ; saying thus plainly : They o o In his defence of the Apology . p. 48. be none of ours .

Touching the Apostolici , or Henricians ; they are so far from beinge Protestants , as that they are acknowledged for Heretyks by D Fulke , p p D. Fulke in his Retentiue against Bristow . p. 124. D. Iewel , q q In his defence of the Apol. p. 48. and Osiander , r r Cent. 12. p. 291. who reports their Heresyes .

But to proceed forward to other of your Examples . Peter Bruis is censured for an Hereticke , by Osiander , s s Osiander . Cent. 12. p. 282. and 283. and Hospinian ; t t Hospinian in histor. Sacrament l. 4. p. 361. who relates his Heresyes .

Almaricus his Heresies are reported by Osiander , & himselfe reiected for an Hereticke , and not acknowledged for a Protestant by the said Osiander ; u u Osiander vbi supra . neyther by D. Iewell , x x In his defence of the Apol , vbi supra who speaking of the Albigenses , the Apostolici , and Almaricus , saith ( as before ) they be none of ours . And thus far Gentlemen ) touching the Waldenses , the Albigenses , the Apostolici , or Henricians , Peter Bruis , and Almaricus .

D. REYNOLDS .

I see no reason , but that we may be iustly distrustfull , in giuing ouer much credit , to the wryting of former tymes , which charge the Waldenses , Albigenses , and the rest , with the Heresyes by you recited : And if such wrytings were eyther false in himselfs , o● but forged only , through deceate and confederacy of their Enemyes ; then may the said Men well be reputed for true , and perfect Protestants .

MICHAEAS .

If you [ M. D. ] be so diffident , as that ( contrary to the iudgment of Osiander Hospinian and other Prtestants ) you will not beleiue the writings of former tymes , charging Waldo and the rest ( in this passage or discourse mentioned ) with the Heresyes afore alleadged ; then what colour can you pretend , why you should giue Credit to those Writings of the same (s) Cent. 9. 10. 11. p. 326. tyme , which affirme , that the foresaid Men beleiued certaine Opinions of Protestancy ? And therefore it followeth by force of all Reason , that such Writings affirming both the one and the other , are eyther ioyntly to be beleiued and credited , or ioyntly to be reiected , as false and forged : And the rather , seing the Reporters of those tymes , did impartially and indifferently recite and condemne , all those opinions , wherein the foresaid Hereticks dissented from the Church of Rome ; without any foreknowledge , which of the said Opinions , would eyther be approued or reiected , by Men of this age . So weake you see [ M. D. ] is this your Replye .

OCHINVS .

I am of iudgment , that the Waldenses , and the rest can 〈…〉 truly be reputed for Protestants , in regard of the reasons alledged by you [ Michaas . ] And I do hould , that your last reply [ M. D. ] ( touching the vncertainty of the credit of those wrytings , charging the Waldenses , and all the other with Heresyes ) is most firmely auoyded by Michaas .

NEVSERVS .

I am of the same iudgement with Ocbinus herein : And the truth is , we do much wrong the honour of our Church , by pretending such vnworthy Men , for members thereof . But proceede [ M. D. ] to higher tymes .

D. REYNOLDS .

In the precedent ages to these former ( if credit may be giuen to authenticall Historyes ) there were not only many Protestants , but euen seuerall Bookes then written , in defence of the Protestant Religion : As the Authour of the Booke , written against Images , in the name of Carolus Magnus : Bertram , Vlrick , Berengarius &c. All or any of which to denye , to haue bene Protestants , were to infringe all authority of Ecclesiasticall History .

MICHAEAS .

There are not any of these , you haue named , as much ( I may say ) as of the halfeblood to a Protestant : so little affinity there is , betweene the Protestants Religion , and these Mens religion . I grant , that some Protestants ( and these but very few , and of meane esteeme ) do instance ( through their security of better examples ) in these your mentioned men ; but how coldy and weakly , we will now discouer . And first , touching the Booke written against Images , in the name of Carolus Magnus , I say , first , that booke concerneth only but one point of Religion ; and consequently it can giue no proofe of Protestancy in those dayes . Secondly , I auer , that it was forged by some Heretike , that denyed the doctrine of Images ( perhapps ) in those dayes ; but neuer made or allowed by Carolus Magnus . This I prooue first , because Carolus Magnus was wholy addicted and deuoted to the Church of Rome , and it fayth in generall ; And therefore the lesse probable it is , that he should wr●t , or suffer to be written in his name , any booke , inpugning but any one point of that Religion . I will relate the words of Hospinian ( the Protestant ) touching his affection to the Catholicke fayth ; Thus be sayth : y y In ep. dedic . histor. Sacrament . Carolus Magnus nonsolum publicis edictis &c. Charles the Great did not only command by publike Edicts , that the Ceremonyes , rites , the Latin Masse of the Church of Rome , and other decresse and Instituts of the Pope of Rome , should be obserued , through out the whole Empyre ; but also himselfe did force the Churches , to these obseruations vnder payne of impresonments , and other kinds of punishments ; with whom also conspireth in iudgment herein Crispinus z z In his booke of the state of the Church . p. 221. M. Cowper , a a In his Cronicle p. 473. and Osiander . b b in ep. hist. eccles. cent. 8. p. 101. Secondly , in that it is acknowledged by learned writers , that Carolus Magnus was an enemy to those , who impugned Images . For Paulus c c Lib. 2. hist. Franciae . Aemilius witnesseth , that Carolus did send twelue Bishops vnto a Councel houlden at Rome , vnder Pope Steuen in confutation of the errour of the Grecians , against Images . The same doctrine of Images , as defended by Carolus , is further confessed by the Centurists , d d Cen. 8. c. 9. col. 570. D. Cowper , e e In Chronic. p. 474. and by Ioannes f f Lib. 1. pro Imaginibus . Aurelianensis , who liued in the tyme of Carolus Magnus . Thirdly and lastly , there are suspicious of the forgery of that Booke . For it appeareth out of the booke of Pope Adrian , to Carolus Magnus ( which booke was purposely written , against that booke diuulged in Carolus his name ) that the said booke was then written by some secret enemy of Images : a point so euident , that Caluin g g Instit. l. 1. c. 11. Sect. 14. intimateth the vncertainty of the Authour of that Booke , thus saying : E●tat refutatorius liber sub Caroli Magni nomine &c. There is extant a booke of refutation , vnder the name of Carolus Magnus ; which we may easily gather to be made about that tyme : so doubtfully and irresolutly Calum writeth of the authour of that Booke .

Touching the supposed booke of Beriram , written de Corpore & Sanguine Domine , and dedicated to Charle the Bawld ; as said , to impugne the doctrine of the Reall Presence in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist : Which booke some thinke to haue bene forged by Oeculampadius , in the name of Bertram . I say [ M. D. ] first this booke writeth so doubtfully and intricatly of the Reall Presence , vsing the words : figure , spirituall , and Mystery , with such qualifications , as that no strong Argument against the Reall Presence can be drawne from thence ; yea which is more , this booke so much fauoreth the Reall Presence , as that the Centurists h h Cent. 9. c. 4. col. 212. do thus censure of it : Transubstantiationis semina habet Bertramus , The booke of Bertram hath in it the seedes of Transubstantiation . Secondly , the Catholicke wryters of those tymes , ( as Hospinian relateth at large ) did honour i i In histor. Sacrament . l. 4 p. 317. Bertram , as a holy Martyr of the Catholicke Church . How then is it probable , that Bertram should wryte a booke against one of the cheifest Articles , defended & beleiued by the said Church ? Thus far of Bertram .

Touching Vlricke ( who was Bishop of Augusta ) who is vrged for a Protestant , in that it is supposed , he should wryte an Epistle to Pope Nicolas in behalfe of Priests Mariage , and printed lately at Basill . We reply , that by force of all Reason , this Epistle is but forged by some enemy of the Roman Church in his name ; and was written diuers yeares after Pope Nicolas was dead , or before that Vlrick was borne . For as Onuphrius k k L. de Rom. Pontif. writeth ; Pope Nicolas the first ( to whom it is supposed , Vlrick should write ) was elected Pope , anno 858. enioying the same nyne yeares , and two months , & dyed anno 867. Whereas Vlrick was not made Bishop of Augusta , till anno 924. Which was after the death of Pope Nicolas ; And he contemning Bishop fifty yeares , dyed anno 973. Of which point , we may reade Vspergensis , l l In Chronico - Cytraeus , m m In Chronico . & Pantaleon . n n In Chronico .

D. REYNOLDS .

But what say you [ Michaeas ] touching Burengarius ; I hope it cannot be denyed , but that he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation ?

MICHAEAS .

I come to Burengarius ( who liued anno 1051. and was Archdeacon of Angiers ) who is challenged for a Protestant , for his deniall of Transubstantiation , in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist ; I answere , first . It is true , that for a time he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation : yet afterwards he recanted o o As M. Fox confesseth . Act. Mon. p. 13. his Heresy therein and dyed most Catholicke in that Article . Secondly , I answere , that this Heretick-Catholicke Berengarius , did hould diuers errours , euen in the iudgment of Oecolampadius , p p In epist. Oecolampedii et Swinglii . l. 3. p. 710. the Protestant : who thus writeth of him : Berengarius non nulla affirmat aduersus Baptismum parnulorum , & coniugium , Berengarius affirmeth diuers things against the Baptisme of Infants , and Marriage : And againe : Damnata q q Ibidem p 812. est Berengarij Opinio , Sacerdotio Christiano parum minus tribuens : The Opinion of Berengarius is condemned , which ascribed ouer little to Christian Priesthood . Also Papir Masson r r L 3. in Hugone et Roberto . in his Annals of France writeth , that Berengarius and his followers denyed the grace of Baptisme ; denyed , that men committing mortall sinne , could euer obtaine Pardon ; and further , that Berengarius was an enemy to Mariage . Thus much of Berengarius his owne and his followers Heresyes : though himselfe before his death ( according to the iudgment of certaine Catholicke Writers ) recanted his Heresyes .

But ( M. D. and you Gentlemen ) I will conclude this passage , with recurring to one obseruation aboue set downe . suppose therefore for the tyme , that these former bookes were doubtfull , but truly penned by the Authours , vnder whose name they go : suppose also that Berengarius had neuer recanted his heresy in denying of Transubstantiation ; suppose finally , that you may alledge diuers other sectaryes , houlding this or that point of Protestancy : yet what can all this conuince ? It can neuer proue any Visibility of the Protestant Church : seeing all these ( thus admitted ) are but the Examples of one or other priuate Man , who was originally Catholicke and after embraced some one or two points of Protestancy ( still remayning in all other articles , wholy Catholicke . ) And therefore I much commend the Ingenuity of D. Fulke s s In his answeare to a Counterfeyte Catholicke . p. 34. herein , who foreseing the impertinency of these Examples of Bertram , Berergarius , and those others , reiecteth them in these words : Although thes and such like defenced some part of the tru●h which we ●ould against you ; yet le●st you should obiect , it was but in some one or two points , ●passe them ouer with silence Thus D. Fulke , who euen vpon this ground , preterm●●teth all the said examples , and first instanceth in Wicklefe .

OCHINVS .

I do find [ Michaeas ] some learned Protestants to make mention of Ioannes de t t Ioannes de Rupe scissa , and Guilielmus de S. Amore , claymed for Protestants by M. Napper vpon the Reuclat . in c. 20. rupescissa , Gui●ie●mus de S. Amore , Peter u u Peter blois i● . claymed by M. Gabriel Powel in his considerat . p. 25. Blois , and some others for good and found Protestants ? what is your opinion of them .

MICHAEAS .

I grant they are claymed for Protestants , but obserue how iniustly . And first , touching Ioannes de rupe scissa : M. Fox x x Act. mon. printed 1596. p. 287. thus writeth of him . Iohannes de Rupe scissa , liued anno 1340. who for rebuking the spiritualty for their great enormityes , and neglecting their office , was cast in prison . Thus M. Fox . Thus we see , he otherwyse was Catholicke in all points . Willi●lmu● de S. Amore is thus charged by Pantaleon y y In Chronographia pag. 102. the Protestant : Gulielmus de S. Amore Monach●s ex 〈…〉 osyna , in otio 〈…〉 tes , non salua●i scribens , a Papa Haereticus censetur : Guilielmus de S. Amore , teaching , that Monkes liuing of Almes in idlenes , could not be saued , is therefore censured by the Pope for an Hereticke . Lastly , Peter Blois , who liued anno 1200. is freed from being a Protestant by Osiander in these words : z z Cent. 12 p. 181. Petrus Blesensis &c. principum , praelatorum , religiosisorum & priuatorum peccatam grauiter arguit ; non tamen Pontificios errores refutauit . Peter Blois did much aggrauate the sinns of Princes , Prelates , Religious , and priuate Men ; but he no way intermedled with the errours of Popish religion . Now [ Ochinus ] I refer euen to your selfe , how vntruly these former Men may be obtruded vpon vs for Protestants . But the proceeding of our Aduersaries in this question of the visibility of their Church is incredible , who are not ashamed ( in their owne defence herein ) to challenge ( besydes registred and confessed Hereticks ) any one , that hath impugned the Pope or his Church but in any one point , eyther of manners or doctrine ; And hence it is , that they challenge to themselfs for Protestants , men , whom all the world do know to be Catholicks , in all articles of fayth without exception : Thus are Willielmus Occam , and Gandanensis by M. Fox : a a Act. mon. printed 1596. p. 358. & Iohn Scotus b b Osiander cent. 9. p. 44. by Osiander vrged for Protestants . Thus also is S. Bede claymed by D. Humfrey , c c In Iesuitim . part. 2. rat. 3. pag. 326. of whom Osiander d d In epitom . cent. 8. pag. 58. thus speaketh : Bede was a Papist in all those Articles , wherein Protestants do at this day dissent from the Pope . Thus is Peter Lombard placed in the Catalogue e e By Symon Pauli in method . aliquot . locorum doctrinae . fol. 12. of the Doctours and restorers of the heauenly doctrine , whom notwithstanding M. Fox f f Act. mon. pag. 41. styleth : An archpillar of Papistry . Thus also Ioannes Gerson & Thomas Aquinas ( whom all Christendome acknowledgeth to be of the Church of Rome ) are challenged for Protestants by Illyricus . g g See all these & some others , in the Alphabeticall table of Illyricus his Catalogue , re●●ium veritatis . Finally , Thus is Erasmus canonized by them for a Protestant , and particularly by your selfe [ M. D. ] h h L. 1. de Rom. Idolat . l. 1. c. 2. act. 3. p. 73. & yet we reade , that Erasmus thus writeth : i i Erasm . in l. 16. epist. 1● Christum agnosco , Lutherum non agnosco , Ecclesiam Romanam agnosco . Christ 〈◊〉 acknowledge , Luther I do not acknowledge , the Church of Rome I acknowledge . But D. Field ( one of this vniuersity ) ouergoeth all others ; for he with more , then a meretricious and frontles bouldnes , auerreth , that all Christendome before the dayes of Luther , were Protestants ; for thus he writeth : k k D. Fyeld in his booke of the Church . l. 3. c. 8. p. 76. We firmely beleiue , that all the Churches of the world wherein our Fathers liued and dyed , to haue bene the true ( Protestant ) Churches of God &c. And that they , which taught , imbraced , and beleiued those damnable errours , which the Romanists defend against vs , were only a faction : An assertion , which Impudency it self● would blush to mantayne ; it being controuled by all historyes whatsoeuer , and by the free acknowledgment of all Protestant wryters without exception .

NEVSERVS .

This bould asseueration of D. Field ( I confesse ) displeaseth me infinitly ; and it is no small blemish to vs ( who professe the Gospell ) and who should bound and measure our speeches with truth , at least with some probability of Truth , thus to write . For who knoweth not , that the Masse ( which contayneth in it selfe , diuers doctrines of the Romish Religion ) was the publike Leyturgy , celebrated in all Churches throughout Christendome , at Luthres first reuolt from the Pope ? And I grant , that this may giue iust suspition to many to thinke , that we make vndue clayme to the auncient Fathers , and others aboue instanced ( being further of in tyme remoted from vs ) when some of vs blush not , to affirme so vntruly of the dayes next before Luther , and of the tyme , in which himselfe first did rise vp ; it being yet in the memory of Man . But [ M. Doctour ] I pray you , proceede to higher tymes .

D. REYNOLDS .

I acknowledge , it is a difficult point , to name professours of Protestancy , for euery age : Though ( no doubt ) our Protestant Church ( as being the true Church ) enioyed many Professours at all tymes . But these examples afore produced , may giue great coniecture ; that at all times since the Apostles , there haue bene many faithfull Protestants , and an answerable administration of the word & Sacraments .

MICHAEAS .

Touching your former produced examples ; your owne secret iudgment ( no doubt ) assureth you that as yet we haue not met with one pertinent example , in all this discourse . But seeing you [ M. D. ] do forbeare to instance for former ages , yet not discussed ( contrary to your promised attempt in the beginning ) I would entreate Ochinus , or Neuserus , to insist in perticular Instances of Protestancy , for euery such age .

OCHINVS .

I will speake both for my selfe and N●userus . The labour of instancing is peculiar to M. Doctour ; And therefore we would be loath , ( as being no more able to performe it , then he ) to take it from him , and assume it to our selfs .

MICHAEAS .

M. Doctour and you two Gentlemen . These are but words , seruing fruitlesly to rauell out the time , allotted for disputation : Therefore once more I vrge you all , to giue instances for euery age , not yet mentioned .

NEVSERVS .

What needs this earnest solicitation of you in this point ? There were ( no doubt ) in euery of those Centuryes many Protestants : And let that suffice .

MICHAEAS .

What Neuserus ? Generalityes without particulars ? What Logicke is this ? And yet you know , Logicke is the schollars eye , wherewith he discerneth Sophisms and subtill Euasions . But the plaine truth is , neither any of you , or any learned Man whosoeuer is able so much , as but to suggest any one man ( much lesse any one Country ) professing in the next precedent ages the Protestant fayth . And therefore ( since Necessity is euer pardonable ) I pardon you all for your flying to these generall answeres ; though I must confesse , they openly discouer the strayts , within which you are here enuironed .

But [ Learned Men ] seing we haue waded so far in this discourse , we will reflect a little vpon the former examples or Instances . And I will here deale liberally with you , in yeelding ●or the tyme more , then I am bound to doe . And as the Ma●●ematicians do forge certaine imaginary and vnreal Circles in the Heauens , whereby they arriue to the knowledge of the true and naturall motions of the stars and planets : So I will for the tyme here imagine , that Waldo , Wicklef , Hus and the rest by you exemplifyed , were in all points Protestants , and that their faith was not contaminated and soyled with any one Errour or Heresy : yet from these acry supposals , I will neuerthelesse deduce the infallible and certaine truth of the defection of the Protestants Church ; And will proue , that the said Examples ( admitting them for true examples ) are not sufficient , for seuerall Reasons , to support the visibility of the Protestant Church .

1. And first , we are here to call to mind , that the Church of God ( as appeareth from the Etymology of the Word : Ecclesia , and the Ecclesiasticall acceptance thereof ) is a calling out , or Congregation of many of the faithfull : So as to the necessary being of the Church ( especially after the first plantation of it ) not one or two , but diuers and many faythfull must concurre . Which point is made more euident , in that the administration of the Word and Sacraments ( being euer a most necessary Attendant of the Church ) includeth in it selfe a multitude of persons , consisting of Pastours and Doctours , on the one side , and of spirituall sheepe or children on the other side . In like sort the former prophecyes touching the encrease , amplitude , & continuall splendour of the Church do euict the same . Now to apply this to our present purpose . In some of the former examples , we fynd no mention of others , ioyning in beleife with the first supposed Protestants of that tyme : There●ore from hence it may be concluded , that the being of any one such strange Protestant or other , doth not include the being of any Protestant Church at that tyme ; much lesse , the Visibility of such a supposed Church , during but that very tyme.

2. Secondly , the Scriptures and first part of our discourse , do irrefragably prooue , that the Church of God must , not at one only tyme or other , but all tymes , and in all ages , without the least interruption or discontinuance ( much lesse , without interruption for many hundred yeares togeather ) be most visible and conspicuous ; for it is resembled ( euen in this respect ) by Gods sacred Writ , to a Citty , l l Math. 〈◊〉 Esay 2. placed vpon a hill , that cannot be hid at any tyme : And to a mountayne , m m Esay ibidem . prepared in the top of mountaynes , and exalted aboue Hills . All which implyeth a continuall and incessant Visibility of the Church : To which Scriptures D. Fulke n n Against the Rhenish Testament in 2. Thessal. 2. and o o In his answere to M. Reynolds preface p. 34. & 37. D Whitakers subscrbe ( as aboue is shewed ) Both who teach , that euen in the greatest persecution of Antichrist ( much more , then at other tymes ) the Church of God shal be most visible , and as Bullenger p p Vpon the Apocalyps p. 200. sayth : right famous . This now being granted , and withall it being acknowledged by D. ●ulke q q In his answere to a Counterfeyte Catholicks p. 36. and other learned Protestants , ( who speake more sparingly and warily here of , then others of their Brethren do , who grant a longer tyme of the reigne of the Catholicke Fayth and Religion ) : That anno Domini 607. the papists religion preuayled ( as the sayd Doctour speaketh ) and that all Popes from Boniface the third , were Antichrists ; which Boniface did liue about the said yeare 607.

Now here satisfying my selfe at this present , with our Aduers : Confessions , touching the continuance of our Catholicke Religion ; I demaund ( M. D. and you learned Men ) what Protestants can be alledged , liuing betweene Anno 607. and 〈◊〉 220. at which tyme liued Waldo . Here are about six hundred yeares betweene these two tymes ; during all which Period , as also for euery yeare thereof , you stand obliged to alledge Protestants for the continuance of the Visibility of your Church ; or els to acknowledge your Church not to be the Church of God . But here all you Protestants are at a stand ; as being not able to name any one Protestant liuing within the compasse of the said six hundred yeares ; I meane from anno 607. to anno 1220 wherby to support the Visibility of your Church , but for any part of that tyme ( much lesse for whole tyme. ) And if you [ M. Doctour ] can instance for those tymes , I here prouoke you thereto : for as for Bertram , and Berengarius &c. their examples are ouer vnworthy to be insisted vpon ( as aboue is showed ) Besyds , supposing them for Protestants , yet their examples serue but only during the life of Bertram and Berengarius ; both which liued some foure or fiue hundred yeares after the acknowledged foresaid 607. yeare of Boniface ; for which foure or fiue hundred yeares , you still remayne bound to instance your Protestants .

Againe Waldo ( as is said ) liued in anno 1220. Wocklefe liued anno 1370. Hu● in anno 1405. Luther liued more then a hundred yeares after Hus. Here we see againe , there is a good number of yeares betweene euery one of these seuerall tymes : And here I demand agayne of you , to name some Protestants to fill vp the Bancks ( as it were ) or empty roomes of these many Sta●ions : During all which tyme , you cannot instance ( I am sure ) in any one knowne confessed Protestant . Wherefore I conclude , that seing the Church of God is to be at all tymes & seasons euer visible and discernable ; And seing your former Examples of Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , and the rest aboue mentioned ( admitting them for true examples in all points ) are found defectiue to proue your Churches Visibility ; that therefore your Protestant Church ( for want of this visibility , so necessarily required ) is not the true Church of God ; and consequently , that I haue no warrant , to leaue the Catholicke Church , and to implant my selfe in your Protestant Church .

3. Thirdly , All the former Men ( I meane , Berengarius , Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , Luther &c. ) were originally Catholicks ; and then after by forging of new doctrines ( afore vntaught ) they deuyded themselues from the Church then in being : And so thereby they iustifyed in themselfs those words of S. Iohn : (r) they went out of vs ; the very signature or Character Ioan. 2. & Act. 15. of an Hereticke , euen in the iudgment of Protestants . s s Osiand . inepitom . Cent. 1. l. 3. c. 1. p. 78. thussaith : nota , haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur . Now this disparture or going out of the Church , implyeth in lieu of a continuance of their Church , an interruption , discontinuance , and defection of their Church ( and consequently a want of Visibility of their sayd Church : Since it infallibly proueth , that the doctrines taught by these men after their departure , was not taught by the Church afore in being : for if they had bene taught by it , these Men needed not to leaue the then knowne Church , for their defending and teaching of their said doctrines .

4. Fourthly & lastly , you ( no doubt ) will say , that Wicklefe , Hus , Luther &c. did preach the word and administer the Sacraments to their disciples ( since without these meanes , euen by your confession , the Church cannot subsist . ) Here then , seing no t t Hebr. 5. Man taketh to him the honour of Priesthood , but he that is called of God , as Aaron was . And seing according hereto it is sayd : how u u Rom. 10. shall they preach , except they be sent ? And further , who so x x Ioan. 10. entreth not at the dore , into the sheepfould , but clymeth another way , is a theife . I now demand [ M. Doctour ] who did call Luther , Hus , Wicklefe , &c. to preach the word , and administer the Sacraments ? Or by whom were they sent ?

D. REYNOLDS .

I here answere , with Caluin , y y So lasciuius , a Protest . relateth of Caluin , in muscouit . et Tartar . religionem . c. 23. Beza , z z In his conference at Po●si . and D. Fulke : a a Against Stapleton & Martial . c. 2. that they had extraordinary calling immediatly from God , in reguard of the Popes tiranny in those dayes , and the ouerflowing of superstition of those tymes .

MICHAEAS .

This is but extrauagantly spoken , and merely forged by you Protestants [ M. D. ] as hauing no other colour to warrant your calling . But b b Musculus , loc. com . p. 394. Amandus Polanus in part . theolog . l. 1. p. 30● . to refute this phantasy : Extraordinary calling is euer accompanyed ( as it was in the Apostles ) with working of miracles , euen by the iudgment of the Protestants themselve : Among whom c c Luth. tom . 5. 〈◊〉 . Germ. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . Luther thus expostulateth others of their extraordinary calling , saying : Vnde venis ? quis te 〈…〉 is●● ? 〈…〉 isunt 〈…〉 , que is a Deo missum esse testantur ? ( See how by Gods prouidence , Luthers penne turneth vpon himselfe . ) And therefore D. Bils●n , as wholy reiecting all extraordinary Calling ( not warranted with Miracles ) thus confesseth : d d In his perpetuall gouerment of the Church c. 9. p. 111. They can haue no part of Apostolicall Commission , who haue no shew of Apostolicall succession . Thus then Luther , Hu● , Wicklefe , and the rest are exempted from all extraordinary Calling , immediatly by God himselfe : since their Calling was neuer confirmed with the working of any one miracle , euen in the iudgment of D. Fulke , whose words are these : It e e Against the Rhenish Test . in Apocalyp. 13. is knowne , that Caluin and the rest , whom Papists call Archhereticks , do worke no Miracles .

D. REYNOLDS .

Some learned Protestants ( to wit , f f Contra Durae●m l. 9. p. 820. D. Whitakers , D. Bridges , g g In his defence of the gouerment pag. 1276. and others ) do auerre , that it is not improbable to affirme , that Wicklefe , Hus , Luther , &c. receaued their calling from the Church of Rome ; Which calling was conferred vpon them . before their departure out of that Church . Which opinion of theirs ( admitting it for true ) taketh away the supposed difficulty of this your Argument .

MICHAEAS .

Neuer [ M. D. ] doth the poore and fearefull hayre vse before the hounds , more windings and turnings , to saue her life ; then you Protestants do here , to salue your Vocation : for you being here stabled ; to get your selfe out of the myre , sometymes affirme your calling to be extraordinary , and immediate from God ; warranted by him with certaine Euthusiasms ( forsooth ) and illuminations . But when the vanity of that pretext is layd open , then you fly to the Catholicke Roman Church , making it your Sanctuary . But see , with what an absurdity this your later Answere is accompanyed . For ( besides , that Walde , as being a Layman , neuer receaued any calling from thence ) Why do you and others most contumeliously call the Roman Church , Antichristian ? seing it seemes , you confesse , that it is able to conferre true Calling to Luther , Hus , and the rest , and to their successours or descendents ; which ability and power is peculiar only to the true Church . For if the Pope be Antichrist , and his Church , Antichristian ( as your Brethren in their pulpitts , do vociferate ) then how can you pretend , their Calli●g to be sufficient and warrantable ? seing your owne men teach , h h Propositions & principl●● disputed in Geneua p. 245. that in Babylon ( meaning thereby the Church of Rome ) there is no holy Order or Ministery indeed , but a mere vsurpation . And most certaine it is , and confessed by all learned Men ; that Antichrist cannot auaylably confer commission , for the Preaching of the Word of Christ , and admitting the Sacraments of Christ . Now if Luther , Hus , Wicklefe , and the rest do want true calling , then they cannot be any true visible Pastours of Christs Church ; and consequently they cannot iustify in themselfs their Churches visibility : So plunged ( we see ) you Protestants are , when you are demanded to iustify the calling of Luther , Hus , Wicklefe , and their successours .

And thus far now ( Learned Men ) to demonstrate , that supposing Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , Luther , and the rest instanced in your precedent passages , had bene in all points of beliefe , Protestants ; & that they had otherwise neyther comparted with the Catholicks , in any Catholicke doctrines , nor had defended any grosse and acknowledged Heresyes ; yet it is most euident ( in reguard of the Reasons and arguments here alledged ) that the examples of them are defectiue and insufficient , to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church , in that manner , as the visibility of Christs Church is taught both by Catholicke and Protestant , and peculiarly by our selfs , according to the beginning of this our disputation .

OCHINVS .

With M. Doctour good leaue , who hath showed great reeding in his former examples ( though they be not so conuincing and pregnant , as I did hope to find them ) Neuserus , and I will vndertake , to iustify the visibility of our Protestant Church , in all precedent ages . And you are heare ( Learned Michaeas ) to know , I am of opinion , that supposing no instances at all of Protestancy could be giuen , for all these former tymes by you mentioned , yet followeth it not , that therefore there were no Protestants in those tymes ( which is only the Question betweene vs ) for many Reasons may be giuen , why the names of such Professours are not now knowne to vs of these dayes . And one Reason may be this , you know well , the Popes for many ages haue borne more , then a serpentine malice to the Protestant Religion ; euer endeuouring by all meanes possible , to extirpate it out ; Therefore my iudgment is , that their rage and fury was so precipitate and violent agaynst the Protestants of formes ages , as they labored by all courses , to extinguish all remembrance of them , as by burning the books written in those tymes by Protestants ; by purposely making away of all other Records of Protestancy ; and by an absolute concealing the names of all Protestants ; thus hoping , that the Memory of them , might be interred with their Bodyes . This is my opinion . I meane , that there neuer was an vtter disparition and vanishing away of the Protestant Church in auncient tymes but only , that the names and Professours of that Church were most diligently concealed from all after tymes , through the Popes affected malignity .

MICHAEAS .

It is strange , to obserue the exhorbitant proceeding of Protestants in matters of Religion . For sometimes you Protestants do diuulge in your wrytings , that there can be named Protestants , liuing in euery Century since Christ ( as you , M. D. in the frontispice of this discourse , with great ven●itation did vndertake to performe . ) Now you retyre backe [ Ochi●●s ] from M. D. assertion , and say ; doubtlesly there were Protestants in all ages ; though their names and memoryes by some indirect course or other , were concealed from Posterity : So distracted you are in your owne iudgements , passed vpon one and the same point at seuerall tymes . Which certainly must be reputed as a Moale in the face of a learned man ; since now zealously to affect an opinion , at another tyme to let the same saulle , by entertayning the contrary opinion , is but the Ague of an irresolute , and inconstant iudgement . But to come to the point . First I say , that this euasion of Ochinus mainly ouerthwarteth M. D●●tours former Instances . For if the names of all Protestants were buried in forgetfulnes , by the Popes Agens ( as here you say ) how then can we know , that Berengarius , Waldo , Wicklefe , &c. were Protestants ? And if these and others were Protestants , then was not Protestancy and the Mantayners of it wholy extinguished by the former Popes sedulity and diligence . How do you extricate your selfe [ Ochinus ] out of this Labyrinth ? Agayne , I say , this your sentence is but a meere Imagination , wrought in the forge of your owne brayne . For you haue neyther proofe nor colour of proofe , that either the names of Protestants in former ages should be concealed , or their bookes , or any other Records touching them should ( by the labored confederacy of the Popes and their followers ) be suppressed and made away ; And why then should here your bare asseueration be credited ?

Secondly , I vrge , that such proceedings , as here are pretended to be ( as the extinguishing the light and splendour of Christs Church , for so many ages togeather ) do mainly impugne the Prophecyes of holy Scripture , deliuered of it , for we reade , that it is sayd of Christs Church : Her i i Esay : c 60. Sunne shal not be set , nor her Moone hid : That she k k Daniel . 2. shall not be giuen to another People ; but shall stand for euer : That she shal be l l Esay . 60. an eternall glory and ioy from Generation to generation . All which Prophecyes ( besydes diuers others ( recited by your selfe afore ) tending to the exaltation and glory of Christs Church , how dissortingly and disproportionably can they be auer●ed of the Protestant Church of former tymes ? If so the Annals , Records , and all other Monuments of it former being be wholy obliterated and extinguished ?

Thirdly , this Euasion contradicteth the more ingenious and playne acknowledgments of others of your owne Brethren : who do teach , that your Church for sundry ages hath remayned wholy inuisible , or rather vtterly extinct . I will here produce the authority only of D. Parkins ; His words are these : For many m m In his exposition vpon the Creed , p. 400. hundred yeares past , an vniuersall Apostasy hath ouerspred the whole face of the Earth : And our Church hath not bene visible to the world .

Lastly and principally , this your surmise impugneth all experience , touching the cheife Occurrents of the same ages and times . For first we find , that the personall defects and blemishes of certaine Popes are registred in those tymes , and the relation of them are at this present extant ; Neyther could the Popes preuent the same ; And from such relations do the Protestants ( and particularly you , M. D. n n D. Reynolds in his conference with M. Hart. c. 7 diuis , 6. the like doth D. Iewell in his defence of the Apology . in some of your writings ) vpbraid vs with the lesse warrantable life of some Popes . Now then these things standing thus , how could the Popes hinder the registring of any Professours of fayth , aduerse & contrary to themselfs in those dayes ? It is absurd therefore to thinke , that the Popes were well contented , that their owne scarts should remayne to be seene by all posterity ( supposing , it were their powers , to preuent the same ) and yet should affectedly labour , that all testimonyes of different professours in fayth from them ( but especially of Protestant Professours ) should be buryed in eternall silence and obliuion : Themselfs not being able to forsee , that protestancy should sweigh more in these dayes , then any other erroneous fayth and Religion . Againe , the Examples of the Wrytings of Hus , Wicklefe , the pretended booke of Carolus Magnus , the supposed booke of Bertram , the connterfeyted Epistle of Vlrick , and all other writings of the foresaid Hereticks , or any others at this day yet extant , ) & not suppressed ) fight mainly with this your Opinion : For were it not , that the said Wrytings and bookes were yet remayning to the world , the Protestants of these tymes could not haue knowne , what articles of protestancy the said Heretickes did mantayne in those dayes .

Furthermore , the very subiect of the Decrees and Canons of Catholicke Councels , celebrated in all former ages , is chiefly the condemning and anathematizing of particular Heresyes , there [ verbatim ] set downe and expressed , as they did rise in the same ages ; with commemoration and recitall of the Hereticall doctrine inuented , and the person inuenting , with all other due circumstances . Ad hereto , that your owne Brethren confesse , what we here endeauour to proue . Among whom D. Whitakers shall serue for all at this tyme ; who being glad to make clayme for Protestants of all such , as in any sort resisted the Pope , thus writeth to his Catholicke Aduersary : o o Contra Duraeum l. 7. p. 469. Vestris historijs nostrae Ecclesiae memoria viget ; Et qui Pontificij regni res narrare conati sunt , ij nostrae Ecclesiae sunt testis . The memory of our Church florisheth euen in your Historyes ; And those , who labored to relate the proceedings of the Popes Kingdome , are become Witnesses of our Church . Thus D. Whitakers . Lastly , we will adioyne , to all the former experiences , the historyes and Cronicles euen of the Protestants , whose subiect , taske , & designed labour is to relate and make mention of such strange & new doctrines , as did rise in euery age ; shewing , how the said doctrines were not proued ouer in silence by the Church of Rome ; but how , and when , and in what Popes reigne , they were openly gainsaid , crossed , and condemned by the said Church . And all this the Protestant Historiographers do borrow from the Catholicks auncient Records ( for but for those Catholicke Records , they could not tell , how in these dayes to write of those matters . ) This ( we see ) is performed very diligently by the Century writers , in their seuerall Centuryes : by Pantaleon in his Chronographia ; by Osiander in his Epitome Eccles . And by Illyricus in his booke stiled : Catalogus testium Veritatis , qui ante nostram aetatem reclamarunt Papae . And which is here to be noted ( as making more in our behalfe herein ) diuers of these opinions and doctrines , thus related by these Protestants , to haue bene condemned in former ages , are such , as are at this present mantayned for true doctryne by the Protestants . Now from all these premisses we may fully gather , how far those former ages or the Popes then liuing , were from laboring and affecting to keepe in silence or suppresse any doctrine whatsoeuer , or persons mantayning the same , which did appeare to be repugnant to the faith and Religion of the Roman Church at those tymes . But gentlemen I feare , I haue bene ouer longe .

OCHINVS .

Learned Michaeas , I do confesse , I haue seldome seene the weaknes of an opinion more fully and irreplicably displayed , then this of myne is by you at large , euen by direct of seuerall reasons ; And therfore for euer after I am resolued wholy to disauthorize , and depose it . For indeed I see , It is but a meere aery and vasperous Conceate , instantly dissipated before the least beame of a cleare Iudgment .

NEVSERVS .

I do ( with you Ochinus ) acknowledge the transparency of it , since an impartiall eye is at the first , able to see through it . But [ Michaeas ] I see no reason , but that we may auer , that the Protestant Church , and the administration of the Word & Sacraments were in all ages ; though the particular professours of it were latent , and indeed inuisible , through the raging tyranny and persecution , wherewith the Popes of former times did afflict all those , who in externall profession of fayth did in any sort dissent from them . And you know , how aduerse Aduersity is to Mans inclination : And therfore the lesse wounder , if the rayes of protestancy were in former tymes ouerclowded with the mysts of persecution .

MICHAEAS .

Indeed , I haue read , that Antonius sadellius ( a protestant of no vulgar note ) giueth this reason of the latency of his Church , and of the want of administration of the word and Sacrament in former ages ; with whom it seemes you [ Newserus ] in iudgment do ioyne . But to poyze the weight of this reason . Where first I must put you in mind , that it being approoued , maketh the protestant Church to be wholy inuisible in former tymes ; and so destroyeth the mayne Thesis or Tenet , mantayned by you all in the begining of this disputation ; who ioyntly did auer , that the Protestant Church was in all ages visible , & the professours of it were , knowne and discernable ; But to let that passe . Thus I argue , in further disproouall of this your poore refuge . The Church of God vnder persecution , eyther communicateth openly with the false visible Church , in participation of Sacraments and externall profession of Fayth ; Or els she doth refraine , from all such externall communion . If she doth not communicate with it ; then by such her refrayning , she is made knowne , and consequently is become therevisible : If she doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church ( as you repute the Church of Rome to be ) then is she not the true Church ; since the true Church cannot brooke any such dissimulation : I will enlarge my selfe vpon the seuerall parts of this Argument . And first , that the true Church by not communicating with a false Church , is ( in regard of the persecution comming thereby ) made visible , is cleere euen in reason it selfe . For who are persecuted , but Men , that are knowne ? And how can one lying secretly and vnknowne , be sayd to be persecuted ? A point so euident , that M. Curtwright confesseth , that the Church vnder persecution is visible and sensible , for els ( sayth he ) how q q In Whitguifts defence , p. 174. could it be persecuted ? Yea he further thus contesteth with his Aduersary , saying : To let passe , both Scriptures and storyes Ecclesiasticall , haue you forgotten , what is sayd in the first of Exodus ? that the more the children of Israel were persecuted , the more they encreased . With whom agreeth M. Iewell , saying : r r In his Reply , p. 506. The Church is placed vpon a mount , her persecutions cannot be hid . I may truly ad herto , that the greater and more violent the persecution is , the more visible knowne , and conspicuous , is the Church made thereby ; like to a ship , which the more it is tossed with waues and storms , the higher to the eye it appeareth ; or like vnto an Arch in building , which the greater weight and burden it beares , the more strong and firme it remaynes .

The truth of which point is further warrantable , from the example of the persecution in the Primitiue Church ; which of all pressures of the Church , was incomparably the greatest . And yet we find , that the particular Bishops , Confessours , & Martyrs are euen to this day made knowne , who they were , and what Heresyes or false Religion they impugned ; And this from the penns not only of Catholicke Historiographers , but euen of Protestants ; of which subiect , you may peruse the s s In Cent. 1. 2. 3. Centurists , t t In Chronographia . Pantaleon , u u In Chronologia . Functius , x x Cent. 1. 2. 3. Osiander , and M. y y Act. Mon. in his discourse of the tenn . Persecutions . Fox . And may not the English Catholicks ( if I be truly informed ) deseruedly here insist in the Examples of their owne Nation . The Catholicks whereof in regard of their former persecutions in Queene Elizabeth her reigne , are so far from being latent and inuisible , as that they were become most famous & remarkable , throughout all Christendome . O pietatem de crudelitate lndentem . * * Tertul. l. de resurrect . carnis . Are not the names and memoryes of those reuerend Priests , and others of the Laity ( to speake nothing of many worthy Confessours , and others suffering great losses and disgraces ) who lost their liues in her dayes only for Religion ( whose blessed soules I humbly beseech , to interceede and pray for me , to our Sauiour : ) Are not their names and memories ( I say ) euen to this day fresh and liuing ? haue their deaths obliterated & extinguished their memoryes , or rather through a speaking silence , perpetuated and eternized them , their liues being by this meanes extended beyond their liues ? Who , by reason of their then calamities and pressures ( too well knowne to God and Man ) became balls to that state ; and might iustly complayne in the words of the Apostle : z z 1. Cor. 4. Spectaculum facti sumus mundo & Angelis , & Hominibus . Such were the stormy flouds , innundations , and ouerflowings of persecution in the sayd Queenes tyme. But to returne , and to apply this here said . If the Catholicks in this Country ( being but a small part of Christendome ) could not , but for some few number of yeares in comparison , escape the search and hands of their persecutors , but became therby most visible and knowne : the very Ayre ecchoing forth their miseryes ; How could then the Protestants , ( being supposed to be dispersed throughout many Nations ) lye hid , and auoid for so many ages together ( as is pretended ) the force of that persecution , which is affirmed by our Aduersaryes , to haue bene far more greiuous , then euer this of England was .

NEVSERVS .

I pray you [ Michaeas ] descend to the second part of your former Argument ; And first tell me your iudgment , if it be not lawfull for auoyding of losse of goods , or death it selfe , sometymes to conceale our Religion ?

MICHAEAS .

No , we neuer ought to conceale our profession of fayth , for feare of any punishment how great soeuer : for here , nolle confiteri , * * Tertul. l. de fuga in persecut . negare est . And though we are not to importune persecution ( for this were to tempt God ) or to take a spirituall pride in our afflictions , for our Profession of fayth , yet if the temporall Prince do impose any miseryes vpon vs our Religion , we are with all alacrity & Christian magnanimity , patiently to endure the same ; euer continuing in our former Religion , loyalty , and obedience , and powring cut our daily prayers to the Almighty ; that he would vouchsafe to touch the sayd Princes hart , with commiseration of our despicable and betrampled estates , and to grant him all true temporall and eternall happines our selfs in the meane tyme euer remayning confortable : Quid hic mali est , * * Tertul. l. aduersu● gentes . cuius reus gaudet , cuius accusatio votum est , & paena faelicitas : But I will come to the second branch , which contayneth the reason of this my Assertion ; Which was : That if the Church of Christ doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church , she ceaseth ( ipso facto ) to be the true Church of God . This is most euident out of Gods sacred Writ , which teacheth vs . a a Rom. 10. that with the hart a man beleiueth vnto Iustice , and with the mouth confesseth vnto saluation : Which text is truly paraphrazed by D. Field in these words : Seing the Church is the b b Lib. 3 of the Church pag 1. multitude of them , that shal be saued ; And no man can be saued , vnlesse he make Confession ●nto saluation ( for fayth hid and concealed in the hart , doth not suffice . ) It cannot be , but they , which are of the true Church , must by the profession of the Truth , make themselfs knowne in such sort , that by their profession and practise , they may be discerned from other men : A point further receauing it most warrantable truth , from Truth himselfe , who thus threatneth : c c Math. cap. 10. Whosoeuer shall deny me before Men , him I will deny before my Father in Heauen . And from hence it is , that the Protestants themselues thinke , they are obliged in conscience not to be present at the Seruice or Masse of the Catholicke Church , or to participate with the Catholicks in their Sacraments : Which kind of Recusancy is punctually taught by d d In his Synops. printed , 1600. pag. 612. 613. 614. D. Willet , e e In Concil. Theol. pag. 628. Melancthon , f f In his discours hereof recited in Melanc●hons former treatise of Concil. Theolog. p. 634 ▪ 635. Peter Martyr , g g Alledged in the foresaid place by Melancthon . Bucer and h h Lib. de vitendis superstitionibus , extant in Caluin . tract . Theolug . &c. p. 584. Caluin .

But to draw towards an end of this your pretext of persecution . The same is refuted euen from the nature of the Church , delineated in Gods holy Word : and accordingly acknowledged by you Protestants . For if the Church of God must at all tymes be visible , and eminent ( as is largly proued by vs all in the first part of this discourse ) and must be eminent in so full a manner ; as that we are commanded to repayre to the Church in all our spirituall Necessityes , according to those words of our Sauiour : i i Math. 18. Tell the Church &c. And if the administration of the Word and Sacraments must euen to the end of the World , euer and at all tymes be practized in the Church of Christ ; How then can the Church , but by these meanes become most visible , or rather most radiant ? The force of which reason I will conclude , with the words of D. Humfrey , thus wryting : k k In Iesuitism . part. 2. tract. 2. rat. 3. p. 241. Dum ministri docent , alij discunt ; illi sacramenta administrant , hi communicant ; omnes Deum inuocant , & fidem suam profitentur ; Qui ista non videt , talpa est caec●or , Whyles the Ministers do teach , and others do heare ; whyles these Men do administer the Sacraments , those do communicate or participate of them ; whyles all do call vpon God , and professe their fayth ; He , that doth not see these things , is more blynd , then a moale .

NEVSERVS .

Haue you not often obserued [ Michaeas ] how a little qu 〈…〉 tity of copper , in a counterfeyte Coyne ; And yet neyther is the corne or gould extinguished or annihilated ? But that it may be truly sayd , the Corne and chaffe is mingled together , & the gould and Copper moulted together ; And yet neyther is the Corne , chaffe , nor the gould copper : Why then by the like analogy & proportion , may it not be here auerred , that the Protestant Church , was in former ages in the Papacy ; the Papcy was in the Protestant Church ; and yet the Protestant Church was not the Papacy ? Which being granted , freeth our Church from an absolute Inuisibility , at least from an vtter extinction and ouerthrow of it in those former Popisn tymes . And to my remembrance , I haue read certayne learned Protestants , expressing this point , not much differently from my words : for I find M. Parkins , thus to allude to this saying : l l In his reformed . Cathol. p 328. 329. The Church of Rome may be said to be in the Church of God ; and the Church of God in the Church of Rome ; with whom D. Whitakers m m Lib. de Eccles. pag. 165. seemes to conspyre , thus wryting : Ecclesia ver a fuit in Papatu ; sed Papatus non fuit Ecclesia vera : And with these former euen n n In ep. Theol. ep. 1. p. 15. Beza ( besids o o Caluin in l. epist. epist. 104. Osiander in epitom ▪ hist. Cent. 16. part . alt. pag. 1072. others ) doth agree , saying : voluit Deus in Papatu seruare Ecclesiam ; et si Papatus non est Ecclesia . Which answere is thought so sufficient and choaking , as that the former learned Protestant , M. Parkings much resteth vpon it , thus euen exulting : p p D. Parkins vbi supra . This answere serues to stop the mouths of Papists , who demaund of vs , where the Church was fourescore yeres before Luther : for they are answered , that our Church hath bene since the dayes of the Apostles , and that in the very middest of the Papacy .

MICHAEAS .

O how ingenious and pregnant [ Niuserus ] is Nouelisme in fayth ; spining ( like the silke worme ) out of it owne wombe , such fine threeds of wit : But ( alas ) these threeds are too weake to detayne and hould the Aduersary . This diuersion of yours ( rather then answere ) consisteth of a froath of words , artificially put togeather : And indeed it partly resembleth your own former similitude . For the matter ( as I may say of it ) is euen 〈…〉 ase mettall , guilded ouer with a specious show of mysticall phrazes . For you Protestants , seing you are not able to instance particularly in any one man ( during so many ages , as from the Apostles dayes to Luther ) who was a perfect Protestant ; much lesse to instance in the administration of the Word and Sacraments : And also perceauing by Experience , that it soundeth in the eare couldly ( and indeede , harshly ) to grant in plaine and direct words , that the Protestant Church ( during all those ages ) was wholy extinct and vanished away out of the world : and further remembring , that great & huge burdens are better remooued by sleight of witty Engins , then by strength ; haue at length resolued to deliuer this your doctrine or Position , in an affected and obscure phraze , thereby ( as vnder aueyle or clowd ) to shadow the falshood thereof ; saying , as aboue you alledge : The Church is in the Papacy , the Papacy is in the Church ; And yet the Church is not the Papacy . Thus do you here imitate physitians , who giue physicke to delicate bodyes , not in the grosse substance , but eyther in infusion , or extraction .

This curious frame of speech maks ( as I sayd ) a glorious show , at the first ; but examine it , and it presently resolues to nothing ; like vnto the lightning , which is an eminent Obiect to the eye , and yet it no sooner commeth , then it vanisheth . Now for the better discouery & displaying of this your sleight , you are here to conceaue , that the sense of these words is not , that the Protestant Church had in those tymes a latent and hidden being in Catholicke Countreyes , without hauing entercourse or Communion with the then knowne and visible Church , in the Sacraments . For so the true Church could not be said , to be in the Papacy ; no more then at this day in respect of it like aboadin Turkish Countreyes , it can be sayd to be in Turcisme . Therefore the particular manner of this strange and stupendious mixture together for externall Society ( like chaffe and Corne in due heape , or copper and gould in one coyne ) is truly expressed by Osiander ( the Protestant ) in these words : q q In epitom . Cent. 16. part . alt. p. 1076. & 1072. Quod semper sub Papatu aliqui pij homines fuerint , qui errores Pontificios , & idolatrica sacra improbarunt : temetsi id non semper profiteri and ebant , nemo negat ; No man denyeth , but that there were euer vnder the Papacy some holy men , who disliked the Errors of the Popes , and their Idolatrous worshipps : although they durst not openly professe so much , Nisi ardere aut ad minimum exulare velint , except they would burne for their Religion , or at least suffer banishment . And yet the said Protestant more fully : Animum ad ist a pontificia idolatrica sacra non applicusrunt , tameisi extern●●ritus non pro●sus negligerent , vt communi consue●●dino ( quasi torrente rapido ) arriperentur , vt eadem cum alijs facerent ; The faythfull of those tymes , did not apply their minds to , to those popish idolatrous worships ; although they did not wholy neglect their externall rites and ceremonies : and they were led with common custome ( as men caryed with a violent streame ) to do the same things with the Papists ; Quorum infirmitatem Deu● tolerauit & ●ondonauit , Whose infirmityes herein , God did tolerate & pardon . Thus Osiander doth apologize for his Protestant Church in former tymes . From whose testimony ( we see ) that the last sublimated sense of your former sentence resolues to this point ; To wit , that the Protestant Church in those former tymes , being in . or vnder the Papacy , did through feare of burning , or banishment , or some other persecution , dissemble their Religion , and communicate in all eternal rites and ceremonyes with the Church of Rome . This is the sole true construction of the foresayd quaynt sentence , though the former Protestants ( and perhapps , also your selfe Newser●s ) thought it good policy , to deliuer this their meaning to their followers , in nyce and artificiall words ( as Physitians are accustomed to giue their most bitter pils , rowled in sugar . ) But seeing this point of grosse and palpable dissimulation in Religion , is sufficiently discussed in our last passage , I will enlarge my selfe no further therein .

NEVSERVS .

Michaeas , I must confesse , that vpon my more serious and intense obseruation of what you haue here spoken , touching our deliuery of our former Answere , that it is like to the spydars web artificially wouen , but to small purpose : And indeed in a true examining of it , it is ( as you rightly say ) but the former Answere drawne from persecution , though fashioned a new , in an other mould .

OCHINVS .

I do acknowledg the same with Neuserus ; And therefore it is but losse of tyme , to insist in such Extrauagancyes and phan●asyes . But to proceed , if there were no other reason to euict the visibility &c.

If there were no other reason , to euict the visibility of the Protestant Church , yet this following is of it selfe sufficient : The true Church of Christ is euer to be visible ( as we all aboue haue taught : ) Now we can prooue out of Scriptures , that the Protestant Church is only the true Church . Therefore we may infallibly conclude , that the Protestant Church hath euer bene most visible . That our Church is the true Church of Christ , we proue , in that it professeth that fayth , which is agreable to the holy Scripture . This is our demonstration ; This is our Asylum . Here we need not to recurre to Ecclesiasticall Historyes , or to search out examples of protestancy for euery age ; since this reason comprehendeth within it selfe all ages , as a greater number doth the lesser .

MICHAEAS .

Indeede I grant , this Argument is the Mayster-peece in all your shopps ; and ( as you well tearme it ) your Sanctuary . But may not the Arians , the Anabaptists , or any other Hereticks prooue by the same ground , their Church euer to haue bene visible ? Who ( no doubt ) with as great confidence ( as your selfs do ) will maintayne , that they can iustify their Church from the Scripture it selfe , to be the only true Church of God : See how you Protestants here labour with the generall Infirmity of all Sectaryes ; and see how truly that Aphorism of the Physitians is verifyed in you and them : to wit , One and the same Symptome is incident to seuer all diseases . But seing Doctour Whitakers ( for his vpshot ) did cast his last argument in his conference with Cardinal Bellarmyne , in this your frame & mould , to prooue that the Church of Rome had altered it Religion , because ( said he ) it fayth and Religion is contrary to the holy Scripture ; Therefore as loath to obtund your eares with a fastidious iteration of the same points , I referre you to the full answere of the Cardinall , * * In the first part of the Conuerted Iew. giuen therto . Only before I here cease , I will patterne this your Euasion . If then some slippery fellow should truly owe your [ Ocbinus ] a hundred pounds , and ought to pay it by ten pounds euery yeare ; The yearely dayes of payments being come , you require of him the siluer . He confidently auerreth , that he hath payed you euery yeare , the allotted portion of ten pounds , till the whole hundred was payd . You deny the same , and will him , eyther to show some quittance of any one payment , or produce some witnesses thereof , or relate some circumstance eyther of tyme or place , where the yearely payments were made . Now he ( not being able to make good any one of these points , not so much as but for one yeares payment ) flyeth to this shift , saying : Euery man of honesty , integrity , and sufficiency will pay his debts , according to the due tymes of payment ; But he is assured , that himselfe is in the number of thes● men professing honesty , integrity , and sufficiency . Therefore certayne it is that he hath payed the foresayd hundred pounds , within the prescribed tymes of payment . Thus this Cheater bringeth his owne honesty ( which may iustly be called in Question ) as a Medium , for proofe of these his imaginary payments , as you do alledge the Conformity of the Protestants Religion to the Scripture , for the supposed visibility of your Protestans Church for many ages . Now [ Ochinus ] if you like this mans answere ( for both his and yours are wouen in one & the same loome ) my wish then is , that the next tyme you lend any siluer , you may ( for a punishment of your ignorance herein ) be repayed backe after the same manner .

NEWSERVS .

I cannot , but ingeniously confesse , that our flying to the Scripture in this place , serues only but to preuent the instancing of Protestants for former tymes : And so to make a subtill and flye transition from the expected examples of Protestancy , to the vniformity of the Protestant Religion with the Scripture : And indeed it is but a Paralogisme or fallacy , called Petitio principij ; consisting in assuming that to be proued and confested , which is most in Question . For the mayne Question betweene the Papists and vs is , Whether their Religion or ours is more agreable to Gods Word ? And [ Michaeas ] I confesse you speake the truth , in saying ; that euery Hereticke will appeale to the Scripture , and will vrge a conformity of his fayth to it , and consequently may seeke to iustify his owne Churches visibility by this his Appeale ; Whose Priuate spirit ( forsooth ) by detorting of the Scripture , is able to Proiect any text thereof ( as Al●hymists do of Mettalls ) so as it shall endure the touch , for the gilding ouer of his Heresy : An Haeretici * * Lib. aduers . Haereses . ( sayth old Vincentius Lyrinensis ) Diuini Scripturae testimonijs vtantur ? Viuntur planè & vehement er quidem ; sed tantò magis cauendi sunt .

OCHINVS .

Indeed now vpon a second reuiew of this my argument , I do not find that force in it , which in the beginning it seemed to cary . And I do see , that euery Hereticke ( I meane in his owne iudgement , and according to his owne false interpretation of Scripture ) may challenge the Scripture for the fortifying of his Heresyes , as fully as we Protestants can do : And therefore . I do allow that former sentence of Vincentius , alledged by you . Neuserus .

D. REYNOLDS .

I haue found some of our owne learned brethren , to teach ( though aforehand I tell you , Michaeas , that I dissent in opinion from them ) that the Church of Rome and the Protestant Church , are but one and the same Church ▪ from which position they inferre : that seeing the predictions of the continuall Visibility of the Church of God , and an vninterrupted administration of the Word and Sacraments haue bene performed ( at least , as you Romanists do auer●e ) in the Church of Rome ; that consequently ( ours and yours being but one Church ) they are performed in the Protestant Church . And according hereto we find M. Hooker r r Lib. 3. Eccles. po● p. 130. thus to teach . We gladly acknowledg them of Rome , to be of the family of Iesus Christ &c. And agayne ; we say that they of Rome &c. are to be held a part of the house of God , a limme of the visible Church of Christ : with whome conspireth D. Some s s In his former sermons , and two questions , ser● 3. p. 44● . thus graunting : The learneder Wryters acknowledge the Church of Rome , to be the Church of God . But this Opinion I haue to the liberty of euery one , eyther to retayne it , or reiect it .

MICHAEAS .

Here now you Protestants are retyred to your last refuge and hould : And thus is Errour glad to be shrowded , vnder the Wings of Truth . For whereas the most dispassionate , sober , & learned Protestants among you , do grant , that for many ages before Luthers reuolt , they cannot truly and really iustify the visibility of their Church in particular , ( much lesse the administration of the word and Sacraments . ) And yet during all the sayd ages , they see , that all this is actually accomplished , in our Catholicke Roman Church ; They are therefore forced to giue back , and to retyre in all their former answeres ; And at length are driuen ( for the supporting of their owne Church ) to say that the Protestant Church & the Roman Catholicke Church , are identically but one and the same Church : And thereupon they inferre , ( as you M. Doctour say ) that seing our Catholicke Church be generall acknowledgment , hath euer continued visible , during all the former ages ; that therefore your Protestant Church ( both being but one and the same , by their ( curteous yeelding ) hath also enioyed the same priuiledge of a perpetuall Visibility , and the like administration of the Word and Sacraments : So ready you Protestants are , for the preseruing only of your owne imaginary Church in former tymes , to ioyne hands with they Catholicks ( if so they would agree therto ) you granting , that your owne Succession , calling , and Ministery is and hath bene , for former ages continued and preserued , only in the Succession , calling , & Ministery of our Catholicke Roman Church .

And according to this our meaning , M. Bunny ( a Protestant of good esteeme here in England ) dealeth plainly & ingeniously herein ; for he not only teacheth , as the former Protestants do , but giueth sincerely the true reason of such their doctrine ; to wip , that otherwise they cannot proue the being of the Protestant Church , during so many former ages : for thus he writeth : t t M. Bunny in his Treatise of Pacification sect. 18. p. 108. Of the departing from the Church , there ought to be no question amang vs . We u u M. Bunny vbi supra p. 123. are no seuerall Church front them ( meaning from vs Catholicks ) nor they from vs ; And therefore there is no departing at all out of the Church : Nor any do depar● from them to vs , nor from vs to them &c.

And yet more fully : It x x M. Bunny ibidem pag. 119. was euill done of them , who vrged first such a separation &c. For y y M. Bunibidem p. 36. that it is great probability for them ( meaning vs Catholicks ) that so we make our self● answerable , to find out a distinct and seuer all Church from them , which hath continued from the Apostles age to this present ; Or els , that needs we must acknowledge , that our Church is sprung vp but of late , or since theirs : And finally M. Bunny thus concludeth : z z Vbi supra p. 92. Our Aduersaryes see themselues to haue aduantage , if they can ioynt vs to this separation . Thus M. Bunny . But touching my particular iudgment herein , I vtterly ( with all Catholicks ) disclayme from mantayning , that our Church and the Protestant Church is all one : And I confidently auerre , that this strange Paradox is inuented by Protestants , for the reasons aboue expressed .

OCHINVS .

What is the matter brought to this Issue , that we must grant the Papists Church , and our Church to be one and the same Church ? Is this [ M. Doctour ] the euent of our disputation ? I will here imprecate with the Poet a a A●n●d . 〈◊〉 . against myselfe .

Sed mihi vel tellus optem priùs ima debiscat ; Vel Pater Omnipotens adigat ●●ful●ine ad vmbra● , Pall●●ies vmbras Erebi , ●octe●que profundam .

Before I acknowledge the Synagogue of Rome , to be the Church of God .

NEVSERVS .

I giue you free leaue [ Ochin●s ] to include me within this your imprecation . For I will dye the death of a sinner , before I grant , that the Popish Church is the same with the Protestant Church . What ? shall Superstition and Idolatry ( by our owne consents ) be aduanced and set vp ( side by side ) with the Gospell , in the throwne of Gods Tabernacle ? It is a thing insufferable ; and the thought thereof is not so much , as once to be entertayned .

MICHAEAS .

Gentlemen ; good words . God grant your owne Prayers agaynst your selfs , be not heard . And though I be of your mynd , that the Catholicke Church , and your Church is not all one Church , yet if before your deaths , you do not acknowledge the Church of Rome , for the true Church , doublesly your prayer wil be heard , when your selfs ( though too late ) shall with vnutterable ( but improfitable ) remo●se , condemne your selfs , of your owne grosse consideration , in so weighty a matter .

But M. Doctour and you two . Hitherto , we see our discourse hath bene cheifly spent in your obiecting Arguments , for your Churches visibility , and my answering of them . Now I do expect , that our Scenes be altered ; And that I may insist in obiecting , what I haue red confessed , euen by the most learned Protestants touching this subiect : For these alternatiue variations of parts in dispute , are in all Reason , and by custome of all Schooles , most warrantable .

D. REYNOLDS .

We giue you good leaue . For it argueth a great distrust & diffidence in a Mans cause , to tye his aduersary only to answere , and neuer to suffer him to oppose : And it is as vnreasonable , as if in a Duelisme , the one party should be indented with , only toward , and neuer to sryke : Therefore proceed [ Mich●●s ] at your pleasure .

MICHAEAS .

Truth sayth b b Cont. Donatist . post . collat. 〈◊〉 ●4 . [ S. Augustin ] i● m●re foroible to wr●ng 〈◊〉 Confession then any rack● or torm●nt . Which sentence we fy●d to be iustifyed in this Question of the Protestant Churches Inuisibility : For diuers learned Protestants there are , who as being more ingenuous and vpright in their wrytings , and in their managing of matters of Religion , then others of their party ; & as well discerning the insufficiency of all pretended Instances , and other colorable euasions and answeares ( which serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant ) do in the closure of all , both by certaine necessary inferences , as also in playne and expresse tearmes , grant the point here controuerted ; to wit , that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather , bene wholy inuisible , and not knowne to any one man liuing ; or rather , that during such said ages , it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne , destroyed , and ( as it were ) annihilated , and no such Church in being . The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage .

This point then is prooued two wayes , and both from the penns of the Protestants . First , from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours , and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling . Secondly , from their manifest & open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words ; or rather of it vtter extinction & Nullity .

And as touching the first . It is euident euen in reason it selfe , that that Church , which wanteth succession of Pastours & ordinary Calling , ( if any such Church could be ) must needes be inuisible , at least at that tyme , when such want is . And the reason hereof is , because this want necessarily presupposeth , that there were not in that supposed Church , any former Predecessours or Pastours at all , which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers . But where no Pastours are , there are no sheepe ( for it is written : how c c Rom. 〈◊〉 shall they heare , without a Preacher ? ) And where no sheepe are , there is no Church ; And where is no Church , there is no visisibility of it ; since euen Logicke instructeth vs , that : Non Eutis ●●n est Accidens . That the Protestant Church for many ages , hath wanted all personall succession , and ordinary Calling , is ouereuident ; seeing ( besides that , which hath bene sayd of this point already ) we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse . For thus doth Sadellius write : Diuers d d De rebus grauiss . controuers . pag. 319. Protestants affirme , that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling , as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes , which they do attribute only to the Papists . And hence it is , that many Protestants confesse , that they are forced to flye (e) The Protestant Lasciuius reciteth this saying of Caluin I. de Russor . Muscouit . &c. religione , c. 23. to Extraordinary Calling , which is immediatly from God , without any help of man . Thus for example , Caluin saith : Quia Papae tyrannide &c. Because through the tyrann● of the Pope , true succession of Ordination was broken off ; therefore we stand neede of a new course herein ; and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary . Thus Caluin . And D. Fulke f f Against Stopleton , Ma●tial . p. 2. in like manner sayth : The Protestants , that first preached in these dayes , had extraordinary Calling ; with whom agreeth D. Parkins , saying : The calling of W●cklefe , Hus , Luther , Oecolampadius , Peter Martyr &c. was extraordinary .

Thus we see , that the Protestants , confessing the want of (g) In his works printed , 1605. f. 916. personall succession in their Church , as also the want of Ordinary Vocation , and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation ; do euen by such their Confessions , acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes , and an interruption ( next before ) of all personall succession : for if succession of Pastours had then bene really & truly in being ; then had those men bene visible , to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned ; and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling : Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles ( as aboue is showed ) in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants : h h Ama●dus Polanus in part . Theolog. p. 308. Musculus in loc. c●● . p 394. Luther tom. 5. lenae Germ. 〈◊〉 . 491. or otherwise it is but a meere illusion : And we haue not red or heard , that any of those first Protestants ( who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling ) haue euer wrought , in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine , any one Miracle .

OCHINVS .

I must confesse [ Michaeas ] that you haue discussed well of this poynt , and in my iudgment very forcingly . But proceed ( we intreate you ) to the second branch of your Proofe ; since I can hardly belieue , that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church : for if they do , then is the Question at an end , and hath receaued it vttermost tryall , that can be imagined .

MICHAEAS .

The euent will seale the truth of this point . And first , that immediatly before Luthers reuolt , the Protestant Church was inuisible , Vibanus i i In his Apologetic . c. 176. Regius ( a markable Protestant ) confesseth so much . But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance , we haue already fully discoursed : and therefore we will ascend to higher times . M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote : We say , k k In his exposition of the Creed . p. 400. that before the day of Luther , for the space of many hundred yeares , an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth ; and that our Church was not then visible to the world . Caelius Secundus l l De amplitud . regni Dei . p. 212. Curio ( an eminent Protestant ) confesseth no lesse in these words : Factum est , vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit , ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ( ac ne vix quidem ) agnosci potuerint &c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent , and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely ( and indeed not as all ) be knowne of others . D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point , saying : m m In his answere to a counterfeit Catholicke . p. 16. The Church in the tyme of Bonifac● the third ( which was anno , 607. ) was inuisible , and fleed into wildernes , there to remayne a long season . M. Napper riseth to higher tymes , thus wrytinge : n n Vpon the Reuelation in c. 11. & 12. God hath withdrawne his visible Church , from open assemblyes , to the harts of particular godly men &c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares ; the true Church abiding latent and inuisible : With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. * * M. Brocard vpon ●he Apocalyps . fol. 〈◊〉 . Brocard , an English Protestant . But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church , for the former tymes only ; but inuolueth more ages therein , thus auer●ing : During o o Vpon the Reuelat. in c. 11. & 12. euen the second and third Ages ( meaning after Christ ) the true Church of God and light of the Gospell , was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe . But Sebastianus francus ( a most remarkable Protestant ) ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren , not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility , all the ages since the Apostles , thus wryting : for p p In ep. de abrog . in vniuersum omnibus statutis Eccles. certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure ; And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares ( marke the lenght of the tyme ( the Church hath beene no w●eare externall and visible . Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme ( or rather longer ) is likewise made by D. Fulke , in these words : q q In his answere to a counterfeyte Catholick pag. 33. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham ( with whom I will heare conclude ) is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles , within the lyke latency , thus wrytinge : The r r Lib. de Antichristo l. 2. c. 〈◊〉 . pag. 25. generall defection of the visible Church ( foretou●d 2. Thessal. 2. ) begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes . Good God . Would any Man hould it possible ( were it not , that their owne books are yet extant ) that such eminent Protestants should confesse ( contrary to the necessary Visibility of Gods true Church , proued out of the Scriptures , & acknowledged by their owne learned Brethren ) their owne Church to haue beene wholy latent and inuisible ; or rather , wholy extinct and annihilated for so many ages together ? But this we must as●rybe ( O God ) to thy holy permission , who , as thou suffered in the tyme of the Old Testament , thyne Enemyes to sheath their swords in their brethrens sydes ; so heare tho● permiteest ( for the greater honour of thy Church ) so many learned Protestants ( euen with wounderfull admiration , sweete Iesus ) deadly to wounde their owne Church , fayth , and Religion , with their owne penns .

D. REYNOLDS .

Forbeare ( Michaeas ) these woundering Interiections , the accustomed Dialect of an vngouerned Passion . I grant , these learned Protestants aboue alledged were of this opinion ; Notwithstanding to confront their authorityes , there may be found many others as learned and iudicious Protestants , as these are , who absolutly mantayne the Visibility of their Church for all ages . And I see no reason , but that the sentences and iudgements of these other should preponderate and weighe equally with ) the iudgements of the former Protestants , by you alledged .

MICHAEAS .

You must pardon me ( M. Doctour ) if I wounder at things , so strangly and vnexpectedly fauling out . But to your solution . I say , it is most defectiue for seuerall reasons . First , because it mainly crosseth the method agreed vpon , amonge vs , in the beginninge of our discourse ; where you tyed your selfe irreph●ably to stand to the iudgments and confession of your owne learned Men. Againe , though you can bringe other Protestants of as greate eminency for learninge , as these by me obiected ; yet except you and the said Protestants will insist in true and confessed Instances of Protestancy , for euery seuerall age ( which is impossible for you to performe . ) your and their asseuerations are to be reputed but naked , verball , and inauayleable .

Lastly and principally , your Replye is insufficient , Becaus I heare alledge Protestants confessinge the Inuisibility of their owne Church , to their owne mighty preiudice , and the Catholycks greate aduantage ; And therefore it must needs be , that the racke of Truth forced them ( being otherwyse ingenuous , learned , and iudicious ) to all such Confessions ; Whereas such Protestants , as may be brought to gainsay and contradict the former Confession ( as being men of more spatious and large Consciences ) do spake in their owne cause and behalf ; and therefore as being ready pressed to auere any thinge ( how false soeuer ) for the safery of their Church , are deseruedly to be reputed in their wrytings , more partiall : So as in this case the Words of Tertullian may iustly take place . s s In Apologeti●o . Magis fides prou● est , in aduersus somet●psos confitent●● , quam pro 〈◊〉 ●egantes .

NEVSERVS .

I lyke well [ Michaeas ] the reason of your disparity , geuen touching some Protestants confessing against themselfs , and others affirming the contrary ; to their owne aduantage .

OCHINVS .

The difference set downe by you is most foreible : for no doubte the open Confession of one learned Aduersary , is to ouerballance twenty denying the same , euen for that peculiar reason aboue mentioned .

D. REYNOLDS .

Michaeas Suppose for the tyme , that we could not proue our Churches perpetuali Visibility : yet seinge you are not able , ( if you were pressed thereto ) to iustify and make good the Visibility of your owne Roman Church , during all the ages since the Apostles dayes . Therefore looke into what danger , through our confessed Inuisibility , we may be presumed to tune , within the same we may justly includ you : And thus you owne argument rebucts vpon your selfe .

MICHAEAS .

Heare I see [ M. D. ] that for meare want of positiue arguments , to support your owne Church , you are lastly fled to picke quarrells at our Church ; as if it were a iustification of yourselfs , that wee Catholycks did labour with your infirmities ; lyke men , who reioyce to haue compartuers in misery . But to your point vrged . say it is impertinent to the whole drift of our dispute , which was only , touching the want of Visibility in the Protestant Church ; which alone to proue , was by me vndertaken ; the visibilitye of the Catholycke Church comminge in incidently ; lyke as a discours of vice doth often in the End ; biget some specches of Vertue ; our Contrary being thus brought to our remembrance , by meanes of the other Contrary . But because [ M. D. ] you shall discouer no tergiuersation in vs herein , and that here to entreate of the continuall Visibility of our Catholycke Church , violateth our former imposed method : Therefore I will pawne my credit , that there shal be left with you certaine t t This is performed in the Conclusion of this Trea●ise . prouffs , con●ayninge the expresse and confessed Visibility of our Roman Church , from the Apostles to these dayes ; And this by the acknowledgment of sundry learned Protestants ; though heare by the way , I must tell you , that the confessed Inuisibility of the Protestant Church , during so many former Ages , doth potentially and vertually include the proufe of the Visibility of our Roman Church , during the said ages : Seing the Inuisibility of your Church ( for so longe a tyme ) is ascribed by you Protestants ( as appeareth by many of the former Protestants testimonyes ) to be the worke of Antichtist ; ( you meaninge thereby , the Pope , and the Church of Rome ) therefore it ineuitably followeth , from your owne Primisses , that Popes and the Church of Rome haue euer beene visible , during all the said former Ages and Centuryes .

OCHINVS .

Newserus , I would haue a word or two with you in priuate ; therefore if it please you , let vs walke a little a part .

NEVSERVS .

I am willingthereto : go into the next roome , and I will follow you ,

OCHINVS .

You see here [ Neuserus ] how this Question of the Protestant Churches visibility hath bene discussed and argued : And I must consesse , that [ Michaeas ] hath euen in replicably demonstrated , that the Protestant Church hath ( at least for many ages ) bene inuisible , or rather extinct : you see also , how royatous and abounding the old Testament●s in prophecyes , and other testimonies , that the Church in the daye , of the true Messias , shal be at all cy●res , most conspicuous and visible . Therefore what resteth , but that eyther we must reiect the old Testament ( which I neuer will do ) for falsly prophetying of the state of the Church ; Or els we must denye , that these tymes of the new Testament , are the tymes of Grace ; & that the Church erected by Christ and his Apostles ( as wanting the accomplishment of the foresayd predictions ) is the true Church ? which later poynt , I hould to be more probable .

NEVSERVS .

You haue preuented me [ Ochinus ] in tyme of speaking , but not in iudgment . For to confesse the truth , after I had obserued the weaknes of the Instances alledged ( though alledged by the Doctour , with as much Scholarlike Art , and aduantage , as might be ) my houering thoughts transported my iudgment to this your Center . Which though it be enuironed with difficultyes , yet I hould it the more safe way with you ( since the one must necessarily be reiected as false and erroneous , they so diametrically crossing one the other ) to retayne our former reuerence to the old Testament , and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New . And therefore , let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour , to acquaint them , with this our finall resolution .

OCHINVS .

Michaeas , and M. Doctour . My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules , passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference . And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons , in disprouall of your instances & of our owne former euading answeres : And our Conclusion is , that we both assure our selfs , that the Protestant Church had neuer any visible existence , for these many last seuerall ages , at the least : And in deed ( I confesse ) when I do u u So saith Ochinus in praefat. suorum Dialogorum . consider , how Christ by his power , wisdome , and goodnes , had established and founded his Church , washed it with his bloud , and enriched it with his spirit ; and discerning how the same is ( funditus auersa ) vtterly ouerthrowne , I cannot but wonder ; and being desirous to know the cause , I find , there haue bene Popes , who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church . Here you haue my ceusure , accompanyed with the true Reason thereof .

NEVSERVS .

I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus , mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments . And yet I hope , this is no blemish eyther to you ( M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt ) nor to our selfs , but only to the weaknes of our cause : for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable , ( and among them , rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church ( that neyther learning , Art , or the bestfiled words ( which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity ) are able to set a good gayne vpon them . Therefore [ Michaeas ] to be snort , in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible , Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours .

MICHAEAS .

I much reioyce thereat , and I hope ( notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches ) that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition , for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth : since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe , a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church ; which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility .

OCHINVS .

Stay [ Michaeas ] Not so . You are ouer hasty ; your praem is as yet not gotten ; and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore ; first , that touching your Church ( at the stear●e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit ) we hould it not ( as aboue we protested ) to be the Church of God ; And then it mat●reth nothing with vs , whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being , bene visible , or no For though we teach , that the true Church must euer be visible ; yet we teach not conuertibly , that what Church hath euer bene visible , the same is the true Church , Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour , take both you notize , that the confessed want of a continuall visibility , and of the administration of the word and Sacraments , ministreth to vs a great suspicion , whether the Church of Christ , be that Church of God , which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament ; and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World . For if he had so been , doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse ( for so the true Church of God is ) after his departure from hence .

NEVSERVS .

What Ochinus●ath ●ath deliuered ( though perhapps with amazement to you both ) I do here iustify . And as it is euident , that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church : So we must needs rest doubtfull ( at the least ) through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions , whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World , which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law ; And whether he had true authority to erect this Church , of which he hath made himselfe Head ●or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit , touching the Messias and his Church , are infallibly to be performed in the Messias & his Church .

MICHAEAS .

How now my Maysters ? Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility ? Tends your approbation of my former discours to this ? Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours ? Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer , because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion , latitude , and continuall visibility of the Church of God , are not performed in the Protestant Church ? And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all , because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes , as your selfs would haue them ? Take heed ; do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions , charactered in your soules , at your Baptisme ; neyther now di●auo●● your ( then taken ) first now . O mercifull God ; how ignorant are you in these matters ? And then more miserably ignorant , it that partly through learning you are become ignorant . Do you thinke to honour the Father , by d●shonoring the Sonne ; euen that Sonne , in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment ? x x Math. 3. Hic est filius meus dilectus , in quo mihi complacui . Certayne it is , that if you perseuer in iudgment , as your words import , you deny him for your Sauiour , who had a Father without a Mother ; a Mother without a Father : The first argued his Diuinity ; the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity . * * Tertul 〈◊〉 gentes . Quod de Deo profectum est , 〈…〉 eus est , & Dei Filius & Vnus Ambo . You deny him , whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature , as that the earth did then ( contrary to it accustomed manner ) euen power it influence vpon Heauens ; To be shor● , you deny him , who gaue y y 1. Timoth. 2. himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all , who tasted z z Hebr. 2. death for all ; who a a Ioan. 1. tooke away the sinnes of the World ; and finally who was Sauiour b b Ioan. 4. of the world , and reconciliation c c 1. Ioan. 2. for our sinnes : In the tyme of whose Passion , death did euen ●eui●e , and Eclips did enlighten : Lux d d Ioan. 1. in tenebris lucet , & tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt . But why labour I , to celebrate his byrth , who is from all eternity , or to performe his exequies , who cannot dye ; e e Rom. 6. Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur . And by you assured , that who contemne Christ , the Redeemer of all flesh , must needs contemne God , the Authour of all flesh .

And where you call the Pope : that Romish Antichrist ; see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne ( is seems ) that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come ; How can the Pope then ( by your doctrine ) be Antichrist ; since Antichrist ( you know ) is to come after ( not before ) the true Christ ? Againe for prouffe , that the Pope is Antichrist , you ( no doubt ) will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New * * 2. Thess. 3. Apoc. 17 Testament : And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you , to proue , that Christ is the true Messias ?

OCHINVS .

Tush ( Michaeas ) This is but your Oratorye . Wee say the Prophecies of the old Testament ( of which we haue set downe so great store ) are infallibly to be performed ; We find they are not performed in Christ Church : How then can we beleiue in Christ , as our true Messias and Redemer , or rep●te his Church , for the true Church of God ? And where you ( Michaeas ) replye , that the said Prophecyes are accomplished in your Popish Church , that forceth nothing : since we are assured , that that your Church is a superstitious and idolatrous Church , and wholy alienated from the Couenant of God . Therefore briefly touching my self , I openly say , I do expect an other f f That Ochinus vpon the not performance of the Prophecyes of the old testament in the Church of Christ , denyed the Trinity , taught Circumcision , and became an absolute Apostata , is witnessed by Zanchius ( the Protestant ) in his booke de tribus elohim , printed , 1594. l 5. c. 9. As also by Conradus Slussenb . ( a Protestant ) in Theolog. Caluinist . lib. 1. fol. 9. The tytle of which chapter in Sluffenberg . is : respontio ad Ochini blasphemiam . And lastly , the same is auerred by Beza , in Polygam pag. 4. Messias , an other Redemer : And I do not acknowledg your Christ to be the second Person of the Trinity : And therefore I do hould , that the Old Law being in force , Circumcision is to beretayned .

NEWSERVS .

Michaeas , the streame of the tymes ought not to beare downe the Truth . Therefore seing in the Church of Christ , the Predictions of the Prophetts ( aboue by Ochinus and my self fully alledged ) touching the enlargment , the vninterupted Visibility , and the incessant administration of the Word and Sacraments are not performed : I here pronounce , that g g That Neuserus through the want of the performance of the foresaid Prophecyes , denyed our sauiour Christ , reputed him a seducer , turned Turke , and was circumcized at Constantinople , is witnessed by Osiander ( the Protestant ) Cent. 16. part. 2. pag. 818. in these words : Adam Neuserus , Pastor Heidelbergensis &c. prolapsus est in Turcismum , & Consiantinopole circumcisus . As also by Conradu Slussenberg . in Theolog. Caluin . lib. 1. art. 2. fol. 9. in these words : Adam Neuserus olim Heidelbergensis Ecclesia primarius Pastor , ex Zwinglianis●● per Arianismum ad Mahometismum , progressus est . Christ was not the true Messias , but aseducer ; and that his Church is not the Church of God . And more particulary for my self ( as continuing for euer in this my sentence ) I am resolued to goe to Constantinople : and there ( as now beleuing in the law of Moyses ) I wil be circumcized . Therefore ( Micheas ) content yourself , and forbeare all further vehemency of speach against vs : in●o which afore you did begin to enter ; but show in you● words greater temperanee and Patience .

MICHAEAS .

Patience Peace Pr●digious men . It is heare a Vertue , to transgresse all bonds of Patience ; and but stupiditie ▪ not to be angry . You Miscreants , vnworthy to breath , since you deny hym , through whom you breath ; and vnwothy to enioye a being , since you reiect hym , who gaue you your Being presumptious Clay , that d●●est thus contest with thy maker . Thinke you my Words shal be slowe , in defence of hym , who is the Word : h h Ioan. 1. 〈◊〉 Verbum care factum est , & habita●t in nobis ? No. I must speake . I will speake . Neuer ( neuer ) shall my eares be guilty of my Redemers blasphemies , but that my Tonge to it vttermost power shall replye ( and in this feruour keepe me , sweete Iesus , to my last gaspe ) And I wil be ready to trumpet ●orth t●e disgrace and ignominye of you both , throughout all Christendum Call you your former Religion : The light of the Gospell , which finally tendeth to put out the Light it selfe ? erat lux i i Ioan. 1. vera , quae illuminat ●mnem hominem . O that I had one of the coales of the holy ●ltar of God , to seare your blafphemous tongues , as the k k Esay . 6. Seraphin by taking one of the coales thereof , did purify the lipps of the Prophet Esay ▪ ô impiety of tymes , in which such Munsters are bred ; worthy for feare of infecting others , to be eliminated out of the Society of Men , and to be relegated vnto some desart or Wildernes ; there to conuerse with Beasts since in sauadgnes of Nature you excede beasts ▪ you Batteyd Infidells , that cannot endure the light of the Sun , * * Malac● . cap. 4. orietur Sol Iustitiae : vnder what name do you expect Saluation ; Since l l Act. 4. there is not any other name vnder heauen , giuen vnto Men ( then tha● of Iesus ) wherein we must be saued ? Cannot the Prophecyes of the Old Testament ( vpon which in other poynts , you seeme so much to relye ) touching so many particularities of our Sauiours Birth , Lyfe , Passion , and Resurrection ( the due consideration m m See hereof the first part of the Cō●erted ●ew at the beginning . of all which , I acknowledg , first made me a Christian ▪ ) preuayle with you , to confesse him for your Red●mer ? Since all those particulars were to be performed only in the true Messias ▪ and all of them haue beene actually performed in hym , whom now you refuse . The patration of infinit stupendious Mirac●es , exhibited not only by Iesus himselfe , but by his Apostles and seruants , may be able ( I should thinke being truly weighed ) to wash out this blot of your Infidelitie , and to ●yle away the rust of this your misbel●ife . ô England , blushest not thou , that after thy casting of thy primatiue fayth , Ocb●nus was the Apostle , by whose meanes and labour thou first did such Protestancy ? Is this he , whose presence n n Bale in prefat. act. Rom pontific . printed 1558. initio . in those day●s is said to make thee happy ; and whose absence vnfortunate ; and * * Caluin . l. descandalis , ( extant ) in tract . Theolog. printed , 1597 ▪ pag. 111 ▪ vt supra dicitur . whom all Italy could not equall ? See ( to thy dishonour , and his perdition ) what he is become : A Iew , a Turke , an Aposta●a , forsaking Christ and all Christianity and teaching Circumcition and polygamy or plurali●ye of wyfes ; a doctrine , where Sensuality diminisheth the pleasure of sence . And thou He●delberg ( at this present honored , by hauinge trans-planted in thee , so fayre a Rose ou● of the English garden ) Behould here once thy cheif Pastour Neuserus ( and now confessedly a cheife instrument of the deuill ) from whome , as from one ( by supposall ) peculiarly illuminated by the Lord , thou hearetofor● dist receaue thy spirituall nurrishment ; Who●e Superintendency ( forsooth ) is not afrayd in the ●●d , openly to blaspheme against the Sauiou● of the World , and to turne Turke ; and who hauing an vncircumcized hart , will needs carye about with hym a circumcized body . And Celebrious Oxford ( the good●●est skryne of the Muses , vnder the Sunne ) how canst thou brooke , that such impure Imps , as these , should breath thy pure ayre ? Or can thy worthy and noble Sonns ( eminently endued with all good lettars ) endure the sight of these Infide●ls ? Hadst thou afore bene perswaded , that these two Monsters ( whose very Soules and bodyes Mans goastly Enemy seemes of late to organize ) would haue ●●ulne into these blasphemyes , no doubt thou wouldest &c.

D. REYNOLDS .

Stay [ Michaeas ] Proceede no further . You haue spoken enough . And I much commend your Christian feruour herein : And I confesse , it gaulingly vpbraids me , to see any of my owne Religion , thus to apostatate from the fayth of Christ . And it is no small greife , that this disputation first intended , to make one Papist a good Protestant , hath in lieu thereof made two Protestants , two Iewes or Turks . But yet [ Michaeas ] let not the seueritie of your Censure pase further , then the fault extendeth . It is only Ochinus and Neuserus ( and two , though too many , in reference to seuerall thousands , is scare reputed a number ) who thus sinne . Let not then the Gospell it selfe , or any other Professours of it , be insimulated by you within this atrocity and Cryme . And you O●hinus and Neuserus . ô soyle not your selfs with this so foule an imputation . But seing Wisdome only iudgeth of Wisdome , and learning of learning ; so let your learning and Wisdome equally runne together , to acknowledg him for your Redemer , who is the source of all Wisdome , learning and knowledge : de o o 2. Io. an. 2. plenitudin● eius omnes accepimus . your Sinne is most heinous and dreadfull ; yet being attended hereafter with a true remorse and repentance , is remissible ; and for your conforts remember that Paull the Apostle ( who once persecuted hym , whom you now deny ) did expiate the sinnes of Saule the Publican .

MICHAEAS .

M. Doctour you do well , and like a Christian Doctour , to endeauour to re●all home these two wretches . Yet touching the paucity of Protestanticall Apostates by you pretended ; it seem●s , your Memory wrongs your Reading . For it is a vast vntruth to affirme , that only Ochinus and Neuserus haue reuolted to Turcisme and Iuda●sme . For did not Dauid George ( a cheife Protestant , and once Professour ) p p Osiander cent. 16. part. 2. pag. 647. saith , of Dauid George : Vtebatur publico Vir Dei ministerio Basi●ien●i &c. at Basil ) become a blasphemous Apostata ? who affirming our Sauiour to be a seducer , and grounding himselfe ( with Ochinus & N●user●s ) vpon the not accomplishment of the Prophesyes of the Churches visibility , in the Protestant Church , thus writeth : q q See historia Dauidis Georgij printed at Antwerp . 1568 published be the deuines of Basil . Si Christi & Ap●stolor●an doctrina vera & perfecta fuisset &c. If the doctrine of Chr●st and his Apostles had bene true a●d perfect , the Church , which they had planted , should haue cont●nued &c. But now it is manifest , that Antichrisi hath subuerted the doctrine of the Apostles , and the Church by them begunne &c. therefore the doctrine of the Apostles was false and imperfect . Thus that imp●ous Iew ▪ And was not Alamannus , a Swinglian , and once most r r Conradus Slussenberg ▪ in Theolog. Caluin . l 1. art. 2. f. 9. Alemanus Bezae antea fami●iarissim●s & ●irenuus Caluinista , R●ligioni Christianae longum valde dixi● & factus est Apostata & Iudaeus blasphemus familiar with Beza ? who , perswading himselfe , that the prophecyes touching the continuall vis●bility of the Church , were not performed in Christ his Chu●ch , because he saw they were not performed in the Protestant Church , did thereupon renounce Christianity and became a blasphemious Iew : a point so euident , that Beza himselfe ( notwithstanding their former inwardnes and friendship ) thus writeth of him : s s S● writeth Beza in epist. 65. p. 308. Alamanum affirmant ad ●uda●smum d●fecisse . Did not Georgius Paulus t t Stancurus de mediatore fol. 38. ( minister of Cracouia ) deny the Trinity with the Turkes ? In like sort Conefius , and Laelius Socinus ( a schollar in the schoole of Geneua ( who writ whole books against the B. Tri●ity ) vpon the former grounds forsooke the Christian fayth . And this Socinus ( as Beza u u Epist. Theol. 81. witnes●eth ) so at the first corrupted the first chapter of S. ●ohn his Ghospell ( which speaketh so plain●ly of Christ ) as that , Beza saith of him : mih● quidem videtur omnes corrup●ores longè superasse . In like sort Andreas V●lanus x x In Pa●aenesi . ( a great Caluinis● ) not only became in the end a Turke , but infected many others with his wrytings , agaynst the Ble●s●ed Trinity and Christian fayth . But if you haue a desire to r●ede of more Protestants , who became Turkes and Iewes , as presuming , that the former Prophecyes were not performed in the Church of God , I referre you to a booke , to which I thinke you are no stranger ; I meane to that most elaborate and mother-booke ( for it hath giuen byrth to diuers others ) written by your owne brother , M. William Reynolds , and called Caluino y y Lib 1. c● 19 l 3. c. 3. & 8. and in diuers other places thereof . Turcismus . You may also to the same end , perusē Conradus z z Lib 1. de Theol. Caluin . a●t. 2. c. 9. Slussenberg and Osiander a a Cent. 16. p. 207. 208. 209. ( both Protestants ) where I presume , your stomacke wil be soone gluted , with the displeasing gust of diuers others there related .

And now in the through of these examples , my thoughts are caried to Sebastian Castalio ( once Professour at Basill ) And one highly extolled by your owne D. Humfrey b b Lib. de ratione interpretandi 〈◊〉 . 1 p. 62. 63. And Osiander in Cent. 16. who saith : Sebastianus Castaleo vir asprimè doctus &c & dinguarum perit●ssimus and others . This Castalio , though he went not so fare as by open breach and Apostasy to leaue the fayth of Christ ; yet in regard that the former predictions touching the spreading of Christs Church ; and the euer vneclipsed conspituity of it , were not ( in his iudgment ) performed in Christ Church , he writeth very perplexedly hereof , to King Edward the sixt in this Maner : Equidem c c In the Preface of the great Latin Bible , dedicated to King Edward the sixt . aut h●c futura f 〈…〉 endum est &c. Truly it is to be confessed , that these predictions are either to be performed hereafter ; or haue bene allredy ; or that otherwyse God is to be accused of lyinge . Yf it be said , they haue bene allready accomplished . I aske of hym , When ? Yf he answeare in the Apostles dayes ; I demand then , how it happeneth , that neith●r then the knowledg of God was wholy perfect , and why it so soone vanished away ; which was promised to be eternall , and more abundant , then the floudds of the Sea ? And then without saluing this his difficulty , he finally thus dowbtfully concludeth : Quo magis libros sacros considero , eo minus hactenus praestitum video , vtcumque oracula illa intelligas : The more ●peruse the Scriptures , the lesse do I find the same performed , howsoeuer you vnderstand the said Prophecies . See with what a fearefull and wauering trepitation of iudgment , this learned Caluinist writeth of this point ; through his false supposall , that the Catholycke Church is not the Church of God ; but cheiffly through his true acknowledgment , that the former Prophecies were not performed in the Protestant Church . And thus far of these Examples . But if you will haue a censure , whether any Protestants ( or rather Caluinists ) turne Arians or no ( who as denying the most Blessed Trinity , are litle bettar , then Turks or Iewes ) I will giue it in this Neuserus his owne words ( and if I wrong hym herein , let hym now before you charge me . ) who thus hath left written : None d d Oslander in epitom . cent. 16. p. 209. reporteth , that Neuserus being turned Turke , and circumcised at Constantinople , did write these words to one D. Gerlachius ( a Protestant Preacher , at Tubinga ) from Constantinople . is knowne in our tyme to be made an Arian , who was not a Caluinist , as Seruetus , Blandrata , Paulus Alchianus , Gentilis , Gebraldus , Siluanus and others ; therefore who feareth to faule into Arianisme , let hym take heede of Caluinisme . Thus you Neuserus : so certaine it is that Arianisme , Turcisme , and Iudaisme , are the last sublimations of Caluinisme .

Well M. Doctour . I am cloyed with the society of this discours , and can hardly endure any longer with patience , the sight of these two Wretches , belcking forth such horrible poyson ; And therefore I will now leaue you , and perhapps instantly after ( vpon some vrgent occasions ) leaue England . I could haue wished , that this our Dispute had made a deeper impression in you , then I feare it hath , for your incorporating into the Catholicke Church : Neuer the lesse , I will pray to God , that before your dissolution , you may be more solicitous and carefull in this so great a matter , which concerns your Soules happines or infelicity for all eternity . Touching my selfe , I do ingeniously protest , that now by meanes of this discours , I seeing the weaknes of all that , which may be vrged by the learnedest Protestants , in defence of this Churches visibility , am become hereby more setled and strenghtned in the Catholicke fayth and Religion , then afore I was ; if more I can be . But now before I end , I cannot but put you in mind [ M. Doctour ] how fouly you were ouertaken in your defence e e D. Reynolds in his censura librorum Apocryphorum . tom . alter , in the table of Contents set before , there at the numbers 161. 175. & 176. defendeth against Bellarm. Ochinus his book written against the Masse . of this impious Ochinus , for his writing against the sacrifice of the Masse : where you may well see , that to deny the sacrifice , which was first instituted by our Sauiour , is a fitting preparation towards the after denyall of our Sauiour himselfe .

D. REYNOLDS .

I must confesse [ Michaeas ] that notwithstanding whatsoehath bene sayd in this discourse , I still remayne a member of the Protestant Church ; assuring my selfe , it is the true Church of Christ . Touching my defence of Ochinus his wryting , I did it out of my conscience ; and my conscience ( I trust ) will warrant it , at the last day . For your present departure , I am agreiued , we shall losse you so soone ; Only I would entreate you , to haue in your discourses ( wheresoeuer , you shall hereafter come ) a tender and gentill touch of the Protestant Church , & of all the true and constant members thereof . And herewith [ Worthy , Michaeas ; ] I take my last farewell .

MICHAEAS .

M. Doctour of your selfe I will euer speake , answerably to your desarts ; Nobly , and with great respect : Since you are a Man , whose barke is richly fraught , with learning & Morality . And what defects haue bene committed by you in this dispute , I do wholy ascribe them , to your want of a good cause , not to your want of good parts . And if there haue bene any words misplaced by , vs on eyther syde , s●t the thought of them vanish away : since they were spoken Antagonistice● , and in hea●e of disputation ; And so in all kindnes & Christian charity , I leaue you , with this my aduise that you will not aduenture your saluation vpon your owne priuate conscience preferring it before the Iudgement and conscience of the vniuersall visible Catholicke Church : As for you two ( fagotts of Hell-fire ) I grant my eyes euen sparkle forth●r●ge in behoulding of you ; And I account ( contrary to the place of the burning f f Exod. 3. bush ) the place , wherin you stand , to be cursed ground . ●or since your Sunne is so f●rie of you ( I meane , your excepted false Messias ) what can you looke , but for a winter of could dispayre and damnation ? Therefore I will take leaue with you , in the phraze of the Apostle to Elymas , the Magitian ( and what greater Magicke , then for one to be encha●ted to beleiue , that Christ is a se●ucer ? ) O * * Acts. c. 23. you full of all subtilty and mischeife , the Sonns of the Deuill , enemyes of all iustice , who cease not to peruert the right wayes of our Lord : Adieu .

OCHINVS .

You enioy [ Michaeas ] the liberty of your Tongue ; but ●age you well .

NEVSERVS .

Let him go : I will nor take leaue with him : such opprobrious speeches he vseth against vs .

OCHINVS .

Now [ M. Doctour ] Michaeas is gonne ; And now we haue the more freedome of speech among our selfs , without feare of being ouerheard . I know , that not only yonder black-mouthd Michaeas , but your selfe also , rest much disedisyed at our ab●enunciation of Christianity . But [ M. Doctour ] come to the point . We see the Prophecyes of the old Testament ( which must euer remayne sacred , permanent , and 〈…〉 uiolable ) do shew that the Church of God in the dayes of the Messias , must euer be visible , knowne , and conspicuous , and must in all ages without any intermission , enioye a publicke and externall administration of the Word and Sacraments : And this is abundantly confessed , not only by vs all in the front of this our disputation , but by all learned men whosoeuer . We now ( notwithstanding such necessity therof ) cannot but confesse , that the accomplishment of the sayd Prophecyes hath not bene effected in the Church of Christ , at le●st in the Protestant Church : how then can the Church of Christ be that true Church of the Messias , which is so gloriously deliuea●ed with the penalls of the Prophets ? Now what other resultancy can be out of the premises , then that the Church of Christ ( as wanting the fulfilling of the former diuine Oracles ) is not the true Church of God ; and consequently , that Christ is the true Messias & Sauiour of the World ? except we will grant ( which I neuer will ) the Papists Church ( as hauing by relation of Michaeas the Prophecies performed in it ) to be the sole Church of God . Therefore so farre , as toucheth my selfe , I do renounce my former Christian fayth , and will embrace the auncient Law of Moyses ; and as intending to be seruiceable to that Religion , I will teach the doctrine of Circumcision , and will instantly write a g g Beza 〈◊〉 . de Polygamia printed 1527. p. 4. saith of this point : Pelygamiam nemo vnqua 〈…〉 callidius vel impu●enti●s defendit , quam impurus ille Apostata Ochinus i● quibusdam D 〈…〉 booke of the lawfulnes of Polygamie or plurality of Wyues ; aunciently practized by the ●ewes in the old Testament ; though now by Christians houlden , as vnlawfull and altogether pro●●ibited .

NEVSERVS .

By the Lord of Heauen , I cannot see how this difficulty can otherwyse be salued , then either by denyinge the Gospell of the New Testament ; or by granting the Church of Rome to be the true Church , which my Soule abhorrs to do . For as concerning the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church , It cannot be made good , notwistanding our great ventitation thereof afore in our Words : And therefore it were honesty in vs now in the end to pull of our Visards ( through which wee spooke to Michaeas ) and plainly confese the truth herein .

And here [ M. D. ] to take a short view of all the discours passed , and to examine it impartially a monge our selfs ; We cannot but obserue , that the Exemples produced by you , were most insufficient ; first , because they were no Protestants at all : Secondly , in that admitting them for Protestants , they but only serue ( as Michaeas well noted ) to iustify the Visibility of Protestants only for those tymes ; neither you nor wee being able to produce but only for for me sake , any one confessed Example of Protestancy , for the space of six hundred yeers at the least . Againe , when Ochinus and my selfe perceaued , that no true instances of Protestancy could be giuen ; I grant we vsed diuers euasions and inflexious to and froe ; and all for the sauing of our Churches honour . As first , to pretend ( though God knowes , a silly pretence ) that all Relations and testimonyes of Protestants in former ages were by the Popes industry and tyranny , vtterly extinct . That fayling , then we made show ( for in our priuat iudgments , we could not really thinke it ) That the Protestants in former tymes were forced to lye secret and latent , in regard of the supposed then raging Persecution . That playne answere not seruinge , then we thought good to inuolue and roule our said euasion touchinge Persecution , in a certaine obscure and darke sentence : to wit , That the Church was in the Papacy ; the Papacy in the Church , and yet the Church was not the Papacy : a forme of words ( as Mich●as truly ●●id forged by vs Protestants , only to cast a ●yst in the eyes of the vnlearned . The next we fled ( for our surest , but indeed sham full refuge ) vnto the Scripture , pretending our Church to be consonant to it , and therefore euer visible ; a cours which indifferently lyeth open to euery Heretyke . After all which ( if you remember M. D. ) your selfe did politikly touch vpon that opinion ( though not with any greate approbation of it ) which , for sauing our Church from it vtter ruine , teacheth , that the Papists Church and Ours are all one . But did you marke , how Michaeas neuer ceased , till he had ferretted vs out of all our former Connyhoales ; be in the end irrephably and choakingly prouing , from our owne learned Mens penns , the mayne question now controuerted among vs ? Now [ M. D. ] seeing I am irrefragably resolued not to admit the Papists Church for the true Church ( though perhapps it hath enioyed the fulfilling of the forementioned Prophecyes ) I do therefore conspyre in iudgment herein with Ochinus , and ame determined to haue this Country ; from whence I will retyre myselfe into the Palatinate ; h h Adamus Neuserus Conc 〈…〉 natores in●● Palatinat fiad suam 〈◊〉 dem perd ▪ xi● , & con ●tacta cum Sacerdotibus in Tur c●a amicitia , & dati● atque acceptis vltro citroque literis , Mahometanam religionem in Germania propagare 〈◊〉ter conat 〈…〉 est . In Colloquio priuato inter Catholicum Pastorem & Baduini Ministrum Coloniae . Anno. 1591. p. 5●● . where I will drawe the preachers to embrace my doctryne ; will procure priuate correspondency with some Turkish Pryests ; will labour with all diligence to spreade the Turkish Religion in Germany ; and finally will go to Constantinople , and there I wil be Circumcized .

D. REYNOLDS .

O God vnto what miserable and strange tymes hast thou reserued me , to se Christ thus abandoned by Christians , and embraced by Iewes ? And what horrid and dreadfull resolutions are these comming from our owne bosome aduersaries ? Alas , Ochinus and Neuserus , thinke what schandall it wil be to the Gospell , when it shal be truly rumored , that such men ( as your selfs ) are Enemyes of the Gospell . And what will many graue Protestants ( and particulary the most learned Beza ) speake of you , for this your most infamous reuolt ? sweet Iesus , that ●ewes and Heathens should fynd light in darknes , and Christians darknes in light ! You both say you will not acknowledge the Church of Rome , to be the true Church of God . Be it so . Yet are the Professours of it , Christians . And will you therefore abandon Christ Iesus , out of your malignity to them ? ô no. A bad Christian is better , then no Christian ; as a dime sight is better , then to be stone blynd . You demande , how can the Church of Christ be the true Church , when the Predictions of the Prophetts touching it , are not performed in it ? Who knoweth , they are not performed in it ? Yf you aske by whome , were they performed ? Where ? and at what tymes ? Remember that these are but Circumstances of the busines ; and it is a receaued Axiome , that : Aliquando constat dere , quando non constat de modorei . And how all these things may be reconciled , is a Mystery sealed vp ( perhapps ) by God from our knowledge , for our greater Humili●ie . But to come to an end . Seeing you both are so obstinately headlong ( as if you were weary or ashamed of the Christian fayth ) to embrace Iudaisme ; I cannot but say , that I do much prefer Michaeas , before you both ( for a Iew being made a Christian , is much more noble , then a Christian , who intende to be a Iew ) and I do from henceforth forbid all entercours , and as sotiation with you . Therefore fare you well , Both ; only for this foule misnap of yours , I can but euaporate my greife out into sights , and weepe ; because in neither of you , I can see teares of remorse .

OCHINVS .

Wee thanke you [ M. D. ] for your freindly admonitions , though they haue no working influence ouer vs . And where you vrge , that Protestants will speake fowly of this my change : I answeare , let any of them , or Beza himselfe ( in whom you peculiarly insist ) shower downe reproches vpon me ; as that , I am a i i Beza in epist. 1. p. 11. calleth Ochinus , Arianorum ●●a●d●s●●nus sautor , Polig●niae 〈◊〉 omniam Christianae religionis dogmatum irrisor . secret fauorer of the Arians ; that I am a defendour of Polygamy ; that I am a derider of all articles of Christian Religion ; Yea let hym playnly and bluntly style me ; an impure k k Beza de polyga●ia , p 4. calleth Ochinus impurus Apostata , as aboue is shewed in the margen● . Apostata ; All this sweighs nothing with me ; for I do glory to suffer opprobry and disgrace , in defence of the auncient Iewish Religion . But come Neuserus ; let vs begonne . And thus [ M. D. ] I leaue you , and commit you to the tuition of the Highest .

NEVSERVS .

Farewell , good M. Doctour , and the Lord of Heauen illuminate the eyes of all those , who remayne yet blinded .

D. REYNOLDS .

Gentillmen , once more I leaue you to God : Who at his pleasure , is able to mollify , the most stonye ha●t .

FINIS . GOD SAVE THE KING .

THE CONCLVSION .

HEARE now ( Worthy Academicks ) is my penne come to it full stop , and our seconde Dialogue to it last Period : Where you haue seene the true and vnfeigned downe fall of the two former Protestants , Ochinus and Neuserus : and the stumbling block , occasioning this their miserable precipitation . Yf any of you do reape profit hereby ( and I hope you may , if you vouchsafe to peruse it with Ind●sterency ) ô how fully then is my labour recompensed ? As for those , who out of an affected morosity , do detractiuely preiudge of our labours in this kind : and through their owne inueterate auersion to the Catholicke faith , do betrample with all scorne and indignation our best endeuours ( though I hope , few or no such spydars do breede in your Colledges ) I pryze not their Censures ; only I do , and still will pray incessantly to God , to giue them more supple and docible harts ; with whom wee may perhapps truly expostulate in the Psalmists phraza : Filij a a Psal. 4. hominum , vsque quo graut corde ?

Peruse ( learned Men ) the authorityes and reasons here aboue alledged ; and deuyde in your iudgments , what is here seigned by way of interlocution from that , in which I really and forcebly insist ; and then make in the secrets of your soules , a reflection vpon your owne Religion . And that you may more warrantably proceede therein I will here proue ( though but breifly ) the visibility of our Catholycke Church , during all those ages , in which your Protestant Church is aboue acknowledged to lye latent , or rather not to be at all : a poynt ( if you remember ) of which Michaeas promised to leaue behynd him , some proufs .

1. This then I proue seuerall wayes . And first , from the Inuisibility of the Protestant Church , during all former ages till Luthers insurrection ( if so we take Luther for a Protestant ) For seeing euer since the Apostles dayes , there hath bene a visible Church of Christ in the World ( as all Ecclesiasticall Historyes , Chronicles , and Antiquityes do irrefragably conuince ) And seing that by the Confessions of all sydes , there hath beene no other Church of Christians visibly in being all these tymes , but either the Catholycke Church or the Protestant Church ( For as for the Arians , and other Heretycks , they continued only for certaine ages ) And lastly , seeing it is acknowledged aboue by so many learned Protestants , and otherwyse also proued by many vnanswerable arguments , that the Protestant Church hath not beene visible for so many ages till Luthers appearing : Therefore it inauoydably followeth , that the Catholycke Church is that Church , which hath euer bene visible and knowne to the World during all that long space of tyme : And the rather , seeing the learned Protestants confese ( as aboue is shewed ) that all the former Inuisibility of the Protestant Church was wrought by the labour , power , & diligence of the Catholicke Roman Chuch now how could the Roman Church effect so much for so long a tyme , except it selfe during al that tyme , were most visible ?

2. Secondly , I proue the same poynt from the acknowledged succession of Pastours in our Catholycke Church , euer since the Apostles . Which euer visible succession of Pastours necessarily includeth in it selfe the euer visibility of the Catholycke Church : those visible Pastours being the visible and most eminent members of the said Church ; and preaching and instructing others : who euen in this respect must become also visible and knowne .

Now that the Catholicke Roman Church hath ever enioyed this visible sucession of Pastours , is confirmed from the wrytings of the Centurists in their seuerall Centuryes : their relating of which poynt being a Principall part and subiect of that their so much commended Work ; A matter so euident and confessed by our aduersaryes , as that D. Fulke thus exprobrateth the Catholicks in these words : You can b b D. Fulke in his answere to a Counterfeyte Catholick . p. 27. and in his Reioinder to Bristowes Reply . p. 343. name the notable personages in all ages ( obserue these words : in all ages ) and their gouerment and ministery and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order , and vpon your fingars . Thus D. Fulke .

3. Thirdly , We prooue the former assertion of our Catholicke Church its Visibility , during the first six hundred years after Christ ( and consequently during the whole period of the Primatiue Church ) by taking a view in generall , how the cheife auncient Fathers of those tymes are pryzed and entertayned by the Protestants ; who indeed ( dispensing with all Ceremonyes herein ) do absolu●ly reiect them , as inexcusable and grosse Papists . For as for these last thousand yeares ; It is acknowledged by all Protestant whosoeuer ; that our Church hath bene most visible , tyrannyzing ( they say ) ouer the true Church , for so many ages . And according hereto M Powell c c In his considerations of the Papists reasons p. 105. sayth : From the yeare of Christ six hundred and fyue , the professed company of Popery hath been very visible and conspicuous .

But to proceede . If the most auncient & most reuerend Fathers of the Primatiue Church , ( I meane , Ignatius , Dionysius Areopagita , Iustinus , Ireneus , Tertul●an , Origen , Cyprian , Athanasius , Hilarius , the Cyrills , the Gregoryes . Ambrose , Basill , Optatus , Gaudentius Chrysostome , Ierome , Austin , and diuers others ) be accounted by our aduersaryes , most earnest Professours of our Catholicke and Roman fayth ; then followeth it ineuitably , that our Catholicke Church was most conspicuous in those dayes : since those Fathers were then the visible Pastours of the Church ; and then consequently the Church ( whereof they were Pastours ) must needs be visible .

That these primatiue Fathers were Papists ( as our Aduersaryes tearme vs ) appeareth euidently out of these few confessions here following ; which for breuity I haue discerped out of the great store of like acknowledgments of this point occurring in our aduersaryes bookes .

And first , Peter Martyr d d Lib. de votis , pag. 476. thus confesseth of this point : As long as we insist in the Fathers , so long we shal be conuersant in their errours . Beza thus insulteth ouer the Fathers : Euen e e In his preface vpon the New Testament , dedicated to the Prince of Condy. in the best tymes ( meaning the tymes of the Primatiue Church ) the ambition , ignorance and lewdnes of the Bishopps was such , as the very blind may easily perceaue , that Satan was president in their Assemblyes or Conncells .

D. Whitguift thus conspireth with his former Brethren : How f f In his defence of the Answere to the Admonition , p. 472. 473. greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned wryters of the Greeke Church & Latin also , for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill , of merit , of Innocation of Saints , and such like ? meaning such like Catholicke doctrines .

Melancthon is no lesse sparing in taxing the Fathers , who thus confesseth : g g Melancthon in 1. Cor c. 3. Presently from the beginning of the Church ( that is , presently after Christ his Ascension ) the auncient Fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the Iustice of Fayth , increased ceremonyes , and deuised peculiar Worshipps . But Luther himselfe shall end this Scene , who most securiously traduceth the Fathers in these words : The Fathers h h Tom. 2. Wittenberg . anno 2551. de ●eruo arbitrio . pag. ●34 . for so many ages ( meaning after the Apostles ) haue bene blind , and most ignorant in the Scriptures : They haue erred all their lifetyme ; and vnlesse they were amended before their deaths , they were neither Saincts , nor pertayning to the Church . Thus Luther ; And thus much touching the Fathers of the Primatiue Church , being professours of our present Catholicke Fayth and Church ; and consequently , that our Catholicke Church was most uisible and florishing in those primatiue tymes .

4. Fourthly , The former inexpug 〈…〉 verity is proued , from that , the Church of Rome neuer suffered change in fayth , since it first plantation by the Apostles . Now if the Church of Rome neuer suffered chauge in Religion ; & if it hath euer continued a Church since the Apostles dayes ; and lastly if at this day it professeth our present Catholicke fayth ; then followeth it demonstratiuely , that there were visible Professours of our Catholicke fayth in the Church of Rome , euer since the Apostles : and consequently , that our Catholicke Church hath euer bene uisible since those tymes . To proue , that the Church of Rome neuer brooked change of fayth since the Apostles dayes , I referre you to the first former Dialogue of the Conuerted Iew.

5. Fiftly and lastly , our foresaid Assertion is acknowledged for true & vndoubred , euen from the penns of our learned Aduersary , who most frequently in their wrytings do intimate so much . And here I am to craue pardon , if I iterate some few testimonies and acknowledgments of Protestants , aboue produced in this Dialogue ; Which as they there did prooue an inuisibility of the Protestant Church in those former Ages ; so here also diuers of them prooue ( so neerely do these two points interueyue the one the other ) a continuall visibility of our Catholicke Church , during the said tymes .

To come then to these confessions of the Protestants in this point , touching the euer visibility of the Catholicke Church ; I will ascend vp by degrees euen to ( and within ) the Apostles dayes : And this , because some Protestants ( as lesse ingenuous and vpright in their writings ( do affoard to our Catholicke Church a shorter tyme or Period of visibility , then others of their more learned and well-meaning Brethren are content to allow .

First then M Parkins thus sayth : i i In his exposition of the Creed . p. 307. During the space of nyne hundred yeares , the Popish Heresy hath spreed it selfe ouer the whole earth . This point is further made cleere from the Penns of the Centurists and Osiander ; all which do in euery of the Centuryes ( from S. Gregories tyme to Luther ) name and record all the Popes 〈◊〉 cheyfe Catholicke Bishops , and diuers others professing our Catholicke fayth , according to the Century or age , wherin eich of them liued .

But to ascende higher M. Nappier confesseth of a longer tyme , thus saying : k k Vpon the Reuelations , 〈◊〉 43. The Popes Kingdome hath had power ouer all Christians from the tymes of Pope S●luester and the Emperour Constantyn , for these thousand two hundred and sixtie yeares . And also againe : l l M. Napper , vbi supra . p. 68. from the tyme of Constantyn vntill theese our dayes , euen one thousand two hundred and sixty yeres , the Pope and the Cleargy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians

But M. Napper in an other place dealeth more bountifully with vs herein ; for thus he witnesseth : During m m Vbi supra p. 191. euen the second and third ages , the true temple of God and light of the Gospell , was obscured by the Roman Antichrist .

Sebastianus Francus alloweth the Visibility of our Church from the tyme immediatly after the Apostles ; thus wrytinge : Presently n n In epist. de abrog . in vniuersum omnibus statut . Ecclesiast. after the Apostles tymes all things were turned vpsyde downe &c. And for certaine through the worke of Antichrist , the external Church together with their fayth and Sacraments vanished away , presently after the Apostles departure . With this Protestant D Fulke conspireth , thus saying : The o o In his answere to a counterfeyte Catholicke . p. 35. true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes . Which being spoken by him of the Protestant Church ; then may we infer , that the Church of Rome and it fayth ( as presumed to be by the iudgment of this Doctour , the false Church ) was visible immediatly after the Apostles . With D. Fulke agreeth Peter Martyr thus writing : Errours p p Lib. de Votis pag. 477. did beginne in the Church presently after the Apostles tymes ; Peter Martyr heere vnderstanding by the word : Errours , our Catholycke doctrins , with these three last Protestants , the Authour of the booke called Antichristus , q q Pag. 13. siue pronosticon finis Mundi ( a Protestant ) thus iumpeth : from the Apostles tymes till Luther , the Gospell had neuer open passage . Now this hinderance of the Gospell is supposed by hym , to proceede from the Pope and Church of Rome ; therefore during all those tymes the Church of Rome hath beene visible .

But D Downham confesseth more freely herof , who doth include the very tymes of the Apostles with in the Visibility of the Catholycke Roman Church , thus r r In his treatise of Antichr . l. 2. c. 2. p. ●5 . teaching : the generall defection of the Visible Church ( foretould 2. Thessol . 2. ) begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes , he meaning hereby , that the Visibility of our Catholicke Church did obscure in the Apostles dayes , the Visibility of his Protestant Church . From this Doctours sentence Hospinian s s Histor. Sacrament . lib. 1. c. 6. pag. 20. ( the Protestant ) litle dissenteth , who speaking of the Sacrament of the Eucharist , thus writeth : I am tum primo illo saeculo , viuentibus adhuc apostolis &c. Euen the very first age ( the Apostles being aliue ) the deuill endeuored to deceaue more about this Sacrament , then aboute Baptisme ; with drawing Men from the first forme thereof .

Thus ( iudicious Men ) you may fully see how visible at all tymes our Catholy●ke Church hath beene ; And of this Veritie you may be more fully assured , not only ( by fiction ) from the discourse of Michaeas , the Conuerted Iew ; but euen from Michaeas , The Prophetical Iew ; Whose praediction of the amplitude and euer conspi●uitie of Christs Church ( and consequently of our Catholycke Church ) is set downe in these words : In * * Michaeas cap. 4. nouissimo di erum erit mons domus Domini praeparatus in vertice montium , & sublimis super colles ; & fluent ad cum Populi ; Et properabunt gentes multae , & dicent : Venite ascendamus ad montem Domini , & ad domum Dei Iacob ; & docebit nos de vijs suis , at ibimus in semitis ●ius . Which Prophecy , as it hath beene hitherto fully accomplished in the present Roman Church ; so on the other syde , how vnaptly ( indeed , how falsly ) it can be applyed to a Conuenticle of Christians , which is confessed ( for many more yeres , then a thousand ) to haue bene wholy latent and Inuisible ( or rather vtterly extinguished ) I leaue to your Candour and impartialitie to censure .

But before I take my leaue with you for this tyme , ( most excellent Men ) I will cast my eye back vpon the Premisses in grose , discussed in this Treatise . Yf then it be so ( as is aboue manifested ) that the Church of God must at all tymes be resplendent and visible : If she must euer enioy the administration of the Word and Sacraments by the ministery of her Doctours and Pastours without any interruption ; and this with such an imposed Necessity , as that the being * * D. Whitakers saith so . l. contra Du●aeum . l. 3. p. 249. of them constituteth a Church , the want of them destroyeth it . Yf we all be bownd vnder payne of eternall damnation , to incorporate our selfs into that Church , which is beutifyed and enriched with the former spirituall endowments ; and to auoyde all such Societyes of Men , wherein they are wanting ; seing only the members of Christs true Church are capable of Saluation : Yf finally our Catholycke and Roman Church , on the one syde , by the frequent Confessions of our learned Aduersaryes ( besids all other proofs thereof ) hath alwayes enioyed the said priuiledges of Visibility , and administration of the Word and Sacraments ; And the Protestant Church on the other syde ( euen by their owne lyke acknowledgments ) hath bene for many Centuryes and ages , wholy distitute and depryued of these spirituall graces , and ( as I may tearme them ) Immunityes . What stupor then and dulnes of mynd , or rather what Letargious constitution of the Soule ( forgetfull of it owne well fare ) possesseth so infinit Men at this day ; as to deuyde themselfs from our said Catholycke Church euen in greate hostility ; and in lien thereof , to be ranged with particular and nouelizing Conuenticles ?

The consideration whereof ( most iudicious Men ) though I looke not to be of that weigh with you , as to moue you actually to implant your selfs in our Catholicke Church ; yet since you are wyse , learned , and loth ( no dowbt ) to commit any such explorate errours , as the force of Naturall Reason and your owne Consciences may freely check ; I am in good hope , that the serious perusall of the poynts aboue disputed , will at least preuayle thus far with diuers of you ; as that you will not be ready hereafter in your discourses , so tragically to enueigh and declame against a Religion , which is fortyfied which such impugnable and irrefragable proufs , as our Catholycke fayth ( euen from our owne Aduersaryes mouths ) is euicted to bee : But that you being Men professing Conscience , Integrity , and Ingenuity , will beare a more fauorable respecte to the said religion ;

And herewith I will conclude , recommending you all in my daily prayers vnto him , who out of his Power and Goodnes created vs all , and out of his Mercy dyed for vs all ; to the end , that by our professing of a true fayth , and exercizing of a vertu●us lyfe , he might saue vs all ; seing otherwise we can no more auaylably expect eternall Beatitude , then the Patriarchs dying in Egypt , could hope to be buried in the Laude of Promisse .

Laus Deo , & Beatae Virgini Mariae .

AN APPENDIX , WHEREIN IS TAKEN A SHORT VIEW [ CONTAINING A FVLL ANSWERE ] OF A PAMPHLET ENTITVLED : A Treatise of the Perpetuall Visibility , and succession of the true Church in all Ages . Printed anno . 1624.

CVRTEOVS READER . Thou mayst be aduertized hereby , that not long since , to wit in the yeare . 1624. there came out a certaine Booke entituled : A Treatise of the perpetuall Visibility and succession of the true Church , in all Ages : not subscribed with any Name . The reason thereof ( belike ) was , in that the Authour ( as guilty to himselfe of his impure proceeding therein ( durst not iustify neyther himselfe , nor this his labour : Though the entituling him in the Epistle to the Reader ( which seemes to be written by some other person , then the Authour ) The most Reuerend , Religious , and painfull Authour thereof &c. doth in the iudgment of many , intimate him to be no meane Man , but a great mayster in Israel : to wit eyther D. White , or D. Featly , or some other as great as eyther . To this concealing of them , of the Authours name ( who , as being a Protestant , might boldly and without danger subscribe his owne name to his owne Booke ; farre differently from vs Priests ) I may ad the Authours affected silence through out his whole Treatise , in not touching , neither glancing at the then late and fresh Conference had at London , euen of this very Subiect of the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages , betweene the afore mentioned D White , and D. Featly on the one part , and M. Fisher and M. Sweete on the other : This Authour not so much as naming eyther the said Priests or Conference ; though all the Realme did then ring thereof . But his intended policy therein may well be presumed to be , that if he had made any particular Reference to the sayd Conference or Priests ; he might well assure himselfe , that then presently an answere would be shaped against his Booke ; which ●e had lesse reason to feare ( as he thought ) his Treatise comming forth in this louely manner . And so himselfe ( as no doubt , he hoped ) might haue set downe ( as the phraze is ) with the last Word .

But whosoeuer the Authour is ; most certaine it is , that the Treatise is most shalow and frothy ; though otherwise it be fraught with diuers deceats and impostures : But we must pardon him , seing we are to remember , that there are some falshoods ( and among these , this of the supposed Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages , may iustly be placed ) of so deep a tincture of lying , as that no art can make them receaue any other dye .

The ambitious title ( as presuming the Protestant Church to be the true Church ) promiseth ( you see ) to prooue ; that the Visibility and Succession of the Protestant Church hath perpetually and without interruption bene in all ages , since Christ his dayes . But here that vulgar saying is iustifyed : parturiunt montes nascitur ridiculus mus : as will easily appeare to any , that shall studiously peruse the former Dialogue , or will obserue , what is here adioyned .

And as touching this precedent Catholicke Treatise of the second part of the Conuerted Iew. Though it be indeed purposely and principally written against all eminent Protestants in generall ( as appeareth by the alledging of their names and testimonyes therein ) who heretofore haue mantained by their penns , the continuall visibility of the Protestant Church ; yet may it with all be iustly reputed , as a full answere to this discourse here examined ; seeing the whole scope , drift , and cheïfe examples of Protestancy ( I meane of Hus , Wicklefe , Waldo , & diuers others ) insisted vpon by this Anonymous and namelesse Authour , are discouered in the former Dialogue , for false , idle , and impertinent ; as being alledged long since by other more famous Protestants : Thus we see , that this Authour is glad to licke vp the arguments of his former Brethren , & to feed vpon their reuertions . Now what other things of lesser moment may occurre herein ( especially touching the impostures and calumnyes here practized and the names of some obcure men , suggested for Protestants only by this Authour , ) they shall in this short Suruey be displayed and refuted . What is here set downe by me , is set downe with all affected and labored playnes of words or style ; purposely forbearing all excursions or amplifications of discourse ; and this to the end , that the Reader may with the lesse distraction of Iudgment and Memory , haue at once a short and whole Synopsis and sight of this Authours falshoods , subt●ltyes , and snares ; where with he labours to illaqueate & entangle the simple and ignorant .

And now to descend to a particular dissection or anatomizing of this Pamphlet . First the Reader is to obserue , that the Wryter thereof spendeth 28. pages , in seeking to prooue , that it is not exacted , that the Church of God should be at all tymes visible ; at least to others . Yea he is so full and earnest therein , as that meerely crossing his prefixed title , he laboreth to prooue the contrary to the said title ; for thus ( to omit diuers such other passages ) he writeth : The a a Pag. 3. godly are driuen to extremityes by Heresyes or persecutions ; they be visible one to an other &c. they are not so apparent to other men , as that at all tymes they know , where to find Assemblyes and Congregations of them . And againe : It is not b b Pag. 17. doubted , but that the Woman ( to wit , mentioned in the Apocalyps ) doth represent the Church , concerning whom being in Wildernes , it doth manifestly follow , that for the tyme of her aboad here , which the Almighty hath decreed , she should not be discerned ; that is , by her Enemyes , who did & would chase her . Notwithstanding it is not to be doubted , but she knew , where herselfe was . And yet more fully : The c c Pag. 24. Church of Christ , whilest this troublesome World lasteth , is now glorious , then shadowed ; in one age in bewty , in an other kept vnder ; vnder some Princes in peace , vnder others in persecution ; yea sometymes so pressed with the extremity of the malicious , as that she is glad to remayne retyred into secret places , and not to appeare openly to the , malignant . But in an other place following , ( to wit , pag. 26. ) he plainly depriueth the Church of Christ of all Visibility , thus speaking : In the dayes of Constantius , when the Arian Heresy had once gotten on head , wherein the World did there appeare any sensible Congregation , mantayning the orthodoxall beleife ?

Now what a strange Inuisible Visibility ( as I may tearme it ) doth this Authour assigne to the Church of God ? in effect thus extrauagantly arguing : The Church of Christ is sometymes more obs●ure , then at other tymes : Therefore the Church of Christ is sometymes inuisible . For I can see no other Inference nor other end , whereunto his former speeches are directed . But this sleight , as being shadowed vnder the colour of Persecution , is refuted in a passage of this former Dialogue . And here I now demand , how doth all this sort to the former glorious tytle of his Booke ? to wit : Of the perpetuall Visibility , and Succession of the true Church in all ages .

Now how painfully ( or rather calumniously ) the Authour laboreth to prooue this inconspicuous●es and obscurity of Christ his Church , we will in some few leaues touch ; referring the Reader to the beginning of the former Discours , for the more full refuting and impugning of the same : Where it is demonstrated , that the Church of Christ must at all times be most visible .

And first , this Pamphleter much insisteth in the tymes of the Iewes ; prouing from the paucity of true beleiuers among them , that the Church of Christ is in lyke sort at diuers tymes to be straytned . And to this end , he produceth many sentences of the Prophets ( whose places d d Psalm . 12. 1. Samu●l . 22. Esay . 1. 5. 6. Ezech. 22. besides others . for greater breuity , are noted in the margent ) But here his Ignorance ( or at least his fraude ) is discouerable . For first , these places are to be vnderstood , not so much of want of fayth ; as of bad conuersation in lyfe and manners , wherewith the Prophets did charge the Iewes . Secondly , the Texts alledged are indeed for the most part in words spoken of the Iewes in generall ; but not intended by the Prophets to be ment of all the Iewes promiscuously . Which Prophets were often accus●omed ( as S. Austin e e Lib. de vn●tat . Eccle● . c. 12. well noteth ) to reprehend the whole People , as if not any among them were good , though many among them were pious . Thus for Example Ezechiel saith c. 3. All the house of Israel are impudent and s●ifharted ; and yet in the nynth chapter of the same Prophet we thus reede : Set a marke with Ta● , vpon the forheads of them , that mourne and crye , for all the abominations , that be done in the middest thereof .

Lastly , this Inference drawne from the state of the old Testament , and applyed to the New , is most inconsequent : Both because the New Testament is better established , then the , old ; seing to it is promised , f f Math. that the gates of Hell shall not preuayle against Christs Church ; And also it is styled : The g g 1. Timoth. 3. pillar and foundation of truth . And finally , in that the Peoples of the Iewes were not the Vniuersal Church of God ( as the People of the Christians are ) And therefore out of the Iewish Synagogue , there were diuers others of the faythfull and Iust ; as Melchisedech , Iob , Cornelius , the Centurion , the Eueuch of Queen of Candice &c.

This ended , this Triffler in pag. 6. & seuerall other places , mentioneth the vsuall Obiection taken from the words of Elias , saying : relictu , sum solus . But this is fully satisfyed in the first part or begining of the former Dialogue .

In the next place ( to wit , pag. 10. ) he commeth to depres the glory of the Church of Christ , during his aboade here vpon earth , and tyme of his Passion ; but all this most impertinently : seing the radiant splendour and Visibility of Christ his Church was cheiffly to beginne ( and then for euer after to continue , till the worlds end ) after the descending of the Holy Ghost , and not before . This done , the Authour commeth to the tymes of the Tenn Persecutions by the Heathen Emperours ; prouing from thence the obscurity of Christs Church in pag. 25. To which I answere , that these Persecutions ( according to the nature of persecution ) were so far from making the Church of Christ in those dayes inuisible ; as that it became thereby most visible ; seeing none are persecuted , but visible Men : And the very names of the cheiffe Martyrs of those dayes are yet most fresh and honorable in the memoryes of all good Christians , euen to this very hower : they remayning yet registred in the Ecclesiasticall Historyes , both of Catholicks and Protestants .

In pag. 26. he instanceth in the tymes of the Arians , and produceth Saint Ieromes testimony and words to wit , * * Ierome aduers . 〈…〉 uc●erean . The whole World did s●ght , and wounder , that it was Arian ; from which authority he would proue the Inuisibility of Christs Church in those dayes . But here the Authour discouereth his ignorance . For here First , Ierome calleth that ( by the fig●●e Synecdoche ) the whole World , which is but a part of the World ; S Ierome meaning only of certaine parts of Christen 〈◊〉 . Secondly S. Ierome here taketh the word : Arian , in a secundarye signification . For here he calleth them improperly , and Abusiue , Arians who through Ignorance did subscrybe to the Arian Heresy . For he speaketh of that great number of Bishops , which came out of all parts of Christendum to Arimine ; and were deceaued by the Arians , through their mistaking of the greeke Word : Omosios ; and there vpon Materially only they subscrybed to the Heresy of the Arians . But the same Bishopps being after admonished of their errour , did instantly correct the same , and bewayled their mistaking with teares and penance . Thus we se , the true relation of this poynt really proueth an actuall Visibility of the Orthodoxall Christians , at that very tyme.

Pag. 27. He insisteth in Athanasius and Liberius , as the only defendours in those dayes of Christs Diuinitie ; and consequently that the Church of Christ did only rest in them two : For thus he wryteth : The Church for any externall show , was brought low ; for if any body held it vp , it was Athanasius , who then played least in sight , and durst not appeare . Heere is strang and wilfull mistaking ; for though it be granted , that Athanasius ( in regard of his feruour and learning ) was more persecuted by the Arians , then any other Bishop ; yet to ●auer , that himselfe alone , or Liberius did only impugne the Heresy of Arius , and that there were no other Orthodoxall Beleiuers at that tyme , is most improbable , or rather most absurd . This is proued ; first , from the Councell , which was assembled cheifly for the suppressing of the Arian Heresy ; at which Councell Athanasius hymselfe was present .

This Councell consisted of three hundred Bishopps and more ; the greatest part whereof by their voyces did absolutly condemne the Arian Heresy . Now how can it be conceaued , that all the said Bishopps ( speaking nothing of the Orthodoxall Laity of that tyme ) excepting only Athanasius , should instantly either a fore or after apostatate or through feare of Persecution , externally profes the Arian Heresy ? Againe , the truth of this poynt is further confirmed from the Epistle , which Athanasius and the Bishops of Thebes and Lybia gathered together in the Councell of Alexandria , did wryte to Pope Paelix , the Second of that name ; wherein they vnanimously protest to defend with all Christian resolution , their Orthodoxall fayth against their Enemyes , the Arians .

Thirdly , the falshood of the former Assertion is euicted from that , that many Fathers and Doctours liuing in the very age of A●hanasius and Libertus ( and diuers of them euen in the dayes of Athanasius , and well knowne to hym ) did refute and contradict ( ex professo ) the Arian Heresy in their learned wrytings : As for example , i i Lib. contra Eunomium . Basil , k k Orationes quinque in theolog . Gregory Nazianzene , l l Lib. de Trinitate . Gregory Nyssene , m m Catecheses . Cyrill of Ierusalem , n n Lib. 9. de Trinitate . Hilarius , o o In c. 1. ad Timot. Ambrose , p p Contra Arian . haeres. 69. Epiphanius and some others : Now in respect of the Premisses , can it be but dreamed , that there should be no Professours of the Diuinity of Christ in those dayes , but only Athanasius , or Liberius ?

Pag. 25. The Pamphleter leauing examples & authorityes , descendeth to Reason , thus arguing : Faith doth much consist of things , which are not seene . Therefore ( seing we beleiue the Holy Church , as an article of our fayth ) it followeth , that it needs not to be euer eminently visible , or apparently sensible vnto vs .

Learnedly concluded . Therefore for the better instruction of this Pamphleter , he is to vnderstand ; that in the Church of God , there is something to be seene , and something to be beleiued . We do see that company of men , which is the Church , and therein the Church is euer visible ; But that , that Company or Society is the true visible Church of God , that we see not , but only beleiue : Euen as the Apostles did see that very Man , which is Christ , the Sonne of God ; but that he was the Sonne of God , this the Apostles did not see , but only beleiue .

In pag. 28. and 29. as also in some other pages afore , he much insisteth in the words spoken of the Woman in the Reuelations . cap. 12. of whom it was prophecyed , that she should flye into the Wildernes ; affirming that by the Woman , is vnderstood the Church , which is not to be seene in tyme of persecution . To this I answere ; first , this passage being taken from out of the Reuelations , cannot ( as euidently to vs men ) proue any thing ; seing the Reuelations being deliuered in visions & prophecyes ( many of them being yet vnaccomplished ) and figuratiue speeches , we cannot so easily apprehend the true sense & meaning of them . Secondly , What diuers learned Catholicks and some Protestants , do vnderstand by the Woman in the reuelations ( differently from the vrging of this Authour ) is set downe aboue , in the first part or beginning of the former Dialogue . Thirdly , admitting , that by the Woman , is vnderstood the Church in Persecution ; yet followeth it not , that therefore she shal be inuisible ( which is the point , for which it is vrged here ( seing a Church , in that it is persecuted , euen in that respect is become visible ( as is proued in the Treatise aboue ) though otherwise it be granted , it is not so gloriously eminent , as it is in tyme of prosperity .

Now whereas the Authour pag. 29. from the Woman ( mentioned in the Reuelations ) flying into Wildernes , thus disputeth : The true Church is for the tyme out of sight in the Wildernes : But so say they ( meaning vs Catholicks ) was their Church neuer : Therefore Will they , Will they , their Church is not the true Church . Here Ignorance mixt with extreme boldnes , disputeth . For whereas Learned Men ( both Catholicks & Protestants ( as appeareth in the former Treatise ) make a continuall Visibility , to be a Marke of the true Church ; Here the Authour ( diametrically crossing all former Authorityes , aboue alleadged ) teacheth , that that Church , which euer hath beene visible , and neuer out of sight ( to vse his owne words ) cannot be the true Church ; and consequently that the Catholicke Roman Church is not the true Church : Thus he ( contrary to all other authours ) maketh an Inuisibility to be a necessary Marke of the true Church . Ad hereto ( as afore is intimated ) that if in this Pamphleters iudgment , the true Church must sometymes euen of necessity be out of sight , and in Wildernes ( or otherwise not the true Church ) how then doth not this mainly feight with the tytle of his Booke , to wit : Of the perpetuall Visibility and Succession of the true Church in all ages ? And why should not the tytle thereof rather be : Of the interrupted and discontinued Visibility of the true Church ?

And thus farre of the first part of this Pamphlet in which we see , how painfully the Authour hath labored , sometymes to prooue , that the Church of God must at certaine seasons be more glorious and resplendent , then at others ( though no Catholicke denyeth this , and therefore the prouffe of it is but impertinently vndertaken ) At other tymes , as in his last produced sentence and argument , as also in some passages aboue cyted , to prooue that the true Church must be often wholy inuisible , plainly thwarting the Inscription of his booke . But his affected calumny here ( whereby he bewrayes his owne guiltines in these his vnworthy Scripts . ) is only , to prefix this discourse of the Churches obscurity , or rather Inuisibility ; that it may serue , as an excuse ( and for a plastering ouer ) of those few , weake , and false examples of Protestancy in former ages , alledged after in this Pamphlet by him : For he hopeth , that by this his former insinuation of the Churches obscurity , the Reader will lesse expect any full demonstrations and certaine arguments of the Protestants Churches Visibility in former tymes ; and the rather seing such an vnterrupted visibility is not ( in this Mans weening ) necessary to the true Church .

Now here we will further tract this Authour in his passages , who , ( whether he be D. White or D. Fearly , or some other ) next beginneth with extraordinary calumnye & deceate , to exemplify his Protestants for certaine ages . For whereas he ought to prooue ( euen from the Title of his Booke , and the Controuersy of the Protestants Churches visibility , now ventilated betweene vs and his Partye ) that the Protestant Church ( seeing he presumeth it to be the true Church ) hath bene visible for the space of sixteene hundred yeares ( for so long since and more , it is since our Sauiours Incarnation ) he produceth examples ( admitting them for true ) only for foure hundred yeres at the most ; and immediatly before Luther ; so leauing one thousand , and one hundred yeres , and more ( a small tyme , you see ) wholy destituted of any one produced example of Protestancy : he saluing this his omission , or leauing ouer these eleuen hundred yeres , in this manner following : What s s Pag. 100. the old Fathers taught ( meaning the Fathers of the Primatiue Church , as being Protestants ) we haue tyme hereafter to show , ( which time of his showing , what they taught , is not yet come ) And of the supposed Protestants , betweene the Primatiue Church and the tymes of Waldo ( he ascending no higher then Waldo ) being about six hundred yeares , he vseth this preterition : We shall t t Pag. 89. not need to ascend any higher ( meaning any higher from Luther , then to Waldo ) Which otherwise to make playne , is as easy , as to deliuer that , which hitherto I haue spoken : And it is not to be conceaued , that Petrus Waldo ( of whome the Waldenses did take their name at Lyons ) had his doctrine from no body &c.

Is not this a very learned satisfaction ( thinke you ) or rather a satisfaction vnworthy to proceede from any Man , professing learning for instancing of the being of Protestants , from Christ his tyme to the dayes of Waldo ( contayning about twelue hundred yeres , or but little lesse ) for all which tyme he instanceth not in any one Protestant , but wholy slips it ouer notwithstanding the Catholicks euer earnest prouoking of the Protestants herein ? Or can any impartiall iudgment , demanding for instances of Protestancy , during all or any of those former ages , rest thus contented ? Heere then ( good Reader ) thou seest , how this Authour abuseth thee , who dealeth with thee herein no otherwise , then if he iustly and truly owing thee Sixteene hundred pounds , should in speeches vauntingly pretend , that he had payed thee euery penny thereof ; And yet he comming to particular accounts and reckonings with thee , should be able to prooue , that he had payed thee ( and this also , but in counterfeyt siluer ) only foure hundred pounds ; affirming in lieu of further payment , that he would be as able to pay thee all the rest , as he hath already done this lesser Somme . Wouldst thou not take such an one , for a most dishonest and perfidious man ? The case of this Treatiser is here iust the same .

But to returne to the Fathers of the Primatiue Church , Of whom he saith , what they taught , he would hereafter show ; meaning ( belyke ) in some other Booke hereafter to come forth Of that labour he is now allready preuented ; And therefore the Reader may find in the Conclusion to the former dialogue , that by the confessions of most learned Protestants , the Fathers were absolute Papists ( as we are called ) and are therefore by the said Protestants vtterly reiected . In which former passage , is also proued , from the Protestants lyke Confessions ; that all the Professours of Christianity , betweene the tymes of the auncient Fathers , and the dayes of Waldo ( contayning six hundred yeres at lest ) were wholy of our present Roman Religion ; and not any of them a Protestant .

But let vs now in this next place , come to his particular Instances of Protestancy , for the space of foure hundred yeres only aboue mencioned : in setting downe of which the Pamphleter vseth this ensuing policy ( for indeed he is a man wholy made of sophistications , deceats , and collusions ) he doth not beginne with Waldo , so descending to Luthers dayes ; seing by this playne method the Reader might at the first sight and sensibly obserue , that he hath omitted ( contrary to the title of his Booke ) eleuen hundred yeres , without giuing any one instance of Protestancy for all those seuerall ages . Therefore he craftily beginneth to instance in the tymes before Luther , and so ryseth vpward some foure hundred yeres from this day , in his pretended Examples : Thus hoping , that the vulgar Reader would either , through not perusing the booke to the End , or through want of Iudgment , not so easely and instantly espye , how far ( and no further ) he had proceeded in these Examples .

Now touching his Examples ; he first instanceth in Hus and u u Pag. 30. Ierome of Prage , who liued anno Domini 1400. that is , some hundred and twenty yeres ( or thereabouts ) before Luthers Apostasy . To this Example of Hus , in which the Pamphleter cheifly insisteth ( for as for Ierome of Prage , he but embraced some of Hus his errours , as learning them from him ) I First answere , that supposing Hus had broached all poynts of Protestancy ; yet followeth it not , that Luther had receaued the said Doctryne from Hus , by an vninterrupted descent of Beleife ( as this Authour pretendeth ) for it may well be , that Hus his Errours were extinct in respect of any beleiuers before Luthers dayes : Euen as Aerius denyed prayer for the deade , and the Hereticke Manichaeus freewill ( as x x Lib. de Haeres . c. 23. & 46. S. Austin witnesseth ) yet were those Heresyes vtterly extinguished for many ages , till Luther reuiued them . Secondly , the articles , which Hus mantayned ( different from the Roman Church ) were but foure , as they are recorded by Fox himselfe : Of which , the doctrine of Communion vnder both kinds , was the cheifest : though according to the iudgement of z z Luther epist. ad Bohem. & lib de captiuit . Babylon 〈…〉 de Euchar. Luther , it is a point but of In differency . In all other points Hus was Catholicke , which this Authour calumniously concealeth . Thirdly , Hus mantayned that acknowledged Heresy on all sydes , that Bishopps & Princes ( being in mortall sinne ) were not to be obayed , but thereby did loose all their authority . Which Heresy is in like sort wholy concealed by this Pamphleter . Concerning the particular prouffes of all which points , euen from the Protestants Confessions , I referre the Reader to the former Dialogue , where Michaeas discouereth them at large : as the like he doth of Wicklefe , Waldo , and others hereafter alledged by this Treatiser . Fourthly , if the Visibility of the Protestant Church may be iustifyed in Hus , or in Waldo , Wicklefe , or in any other hereafter obtruded for a Protestant by this Pamphleter , because eich of them taught two or three ( at the most ) of Protestant points , then by the same reason may the Protestant Church de sayd to haue beene visible , in the Arians , 1 1 Athan. in Apolog. pro fulga . for reiecting of Traditions , & for perpetrating many sacrileges agaynst the Sacraments , Altars , and Priests ; in Pelagius , 2 2 Ierom. lib. contra Pelag. for teaching euery sinne to be mortall ; in Vigilantius , 3 3 Ierom. lib. contra Vigilant . for condemning all religious virginity , and affirming the relicks of Saincts are not to be worshipped : In the Manichees , for denying of freewill : And in diuers such others : (4) Austin . lib. de Haeres . c. 46. All branded Hereticks and registred for such , by the orthodoxal Fathers of the Primatiue Church . Now this Inference I would entreate the Reader to obserue , with peculiar application to all the pretended examples of Protestancy , alledged in this Pamphlet . Fiftly , if we should grant heere all that , which is spoken of Hus , yet it but warranteth the visibility of the Protestant Church , only for the age , in which Hus did liue : His doctrine not being taught in ages before .

Now here in this discourse touching Hus , I am to put the Reader in mind , how this Authour spendeth many idle leaues , in showing how the Nobles of Bohemia , mantayned the errours of Hus ; And that they came into the field in great forces , agaynst the Emperour in defence of the same : so much ( sayth he ) was the doctrine of Hus dilated . He also introduceth some one or other , inueighing against the Popes manners and Cleargy of those tymes : and for such their proceedings , he tearmeth them Protestants . ( And this method , he mightely obserueth throughout his whole Pamphlet . ) Idly inferring : as if fayth , which resids in the vnderstanding , were not different from manners and conuersation , which rest in the Will : Or that abuses in manners , will not euer be in some members of the Church : Or finally that a Protestant , for charging of some Ministers of his part with disorders of life , or Puritans for their bitter inuerghing against the Bishops here in England , were therefore to be reputed Roman Catholicks : so loosly and weakly he disputeth herein .

But all these his Digressions , in respect of the vndertaken subiect of his discourse , are meerly extrauagant . And in my iudgment his intention in these , and other such dilations , and declamatory inuectiues ( wherewith his Treatise is in many places hereafter fraught ) is cheifly , but to fill vp leaues of paper : that so his booke might grow to some reasonable quantity . For seeing all his supposed examples of Protestancy in his Treatise , might well be contayned ( omitting all froathy ambages and circumstances ) in two sheets of paper , and seeing such a poore thing could not come forth alone , with any credit to the cause , or reputation to the writer : He therefore thought it more fit , to interweaue in his Pamphlet diuers long and tedious discourses , how improfitable soeuer . This to thinke , I am the rather induced : in that we may further obserue : in how great and large a letter his Booke is printed : and how spacious the margent of his leaues are , being almost as much paper in quantity , as that , which is printed : And all this ( as probably may be coniectured ( to the end , that this his learned Tome ( forsooth ) might contayne some indifferent number of leaues : See how suttle Heresy is , in triffles and things of no moment .

The Authour hauing finished his discours of Hus , & his adherents & followers : in the next place riseth to the Waldenses , * * Pag. 52. who ( as is here alledged ) denyed Purgatory , Transubstantiation , & blessing of Creatures . First , touching Transubstantion , what the Pamphleter here deliuereth , is a vast Vntruth ; as appeareth from the testimony euen of Calu 〈…〉 , a a Epist. 244. thus wryting : Formula Confessionis &c. The forme of Confession of the Waldenses doctrine , doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation , who do not confese , that the Bread is become truly the body of Christ . In lyke sort , touching the doctrine of Purgatorie , Benedictus b b In tract . de Eccles. p. 124. Montargensis ( a Lutheran ) chargeth the Waldenses therewith : from which two Examples we may take a scantling , what credit is to be giuen to the Pamphleter , in his other Assertions hereafter . But grant , that the Waldenses did teach some one or other poynt of Protestancy ; yet in regard of their far greater Number of Catholicke Articles , euer beleiued by them , and their many execrable Heresies ( condemned for such both by Catholicks and Protestants ) both which poynts this Pamphleter pretermitted in silence ; The Waldenses cannot iustly be exemplified for Protestants : Now of the Catholicke Articles , as also of the Heresies beleiued by the Waldenses , see the Dialogue aboue in the passage touching Waldo , and the Waldenses , and their followers .

After this Authour hath finished his speech of the Waldenses , he further thus proceedeth : The c c Pag. 54. Authour of the sixtenth Century nameth about the yere ▪ 1500. Baptista Mantuanus , and Franciscus Picus Earle of Mirandula ; both which inueighed against the Cleargy and their whole practize : Also one D. Keisers pergius , an other called Iohn Hilton , a third named Doctour Andreas Proles , and Sauanorola , all grawning vnder the burden of those tymes . Againe , the Pamphleter thus saith : And the d d Pag. 56. same is written of Trimetheus , an other learned Man , who liued at that tyme. Thus this our Authour .

Now how exorbitantly and wildly are these vrged for Protestants ? For First , they are auerred to be such only by Protestant Wryters ( to wit , O●●ander and Pantaleon ) who heerein may well be presumed , for the vphoulding of their owne Protestant Church , to be partial in their Relations . Secondly , this Treatizer doth not instance any poynts of Protestancy beleiued by any of them ( which if he could , no doubt , he would not haue omitted ) but only vrgeth their wrytings against some pretended abuses of the Church of Rome in those dayes . And therfore such his proceeding is but calumnye and impertinency . Lastly , touching Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula ( for as for the others , they are so obscure , that hardly any particular information can be had of them . ) It is certaine , that they were both Roman Catholicks , and dyed in that Religion . For as concerning Sauanorola , he beleiued all the Articles of the Roman fayth ( as euidently appeareth out of his owne writings , styled : Vigiliae ) excepting the doctrine of the Popes power to excommunicate . This one point he contumaciously denyed , and for this he was burnt .

Touching Picus of Mirandula , Syr Thomas More of blessed memory ) wryting his life , showeth , that he was so fully a Roman Catholicke , that in his life tyme , he sould a great part of his lands to giue to the poore ; that he often vsed to scourge & discipline his owne flesh ; that if he had liued longer , he intended to haue entred into the Religious Order of the Dominican Pryars : That in tyme of his sicknes he receaued ( according to the Catholicke custome ) the most blessed and reuerend Sacrament of Christs body and bloud , for his Viaticum ; Finally that hearing the Priest in his sicknes to repeate vnto him , the articles of the Roman fayth , and being demanded , whether he beleiued them ; Answered , He did not only beleiue them ; but did know them also to be true : So fowly ( we see ) this Pamphleter is ouerseene in alledging Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula , for Protestants .

But to proceede further . This idle waster of penne , inke , & paper ( for I can tearme him no better ) next descendeth ( in a retrograte and disorderly method ) to Laurentius e e Pag. 56. Valla the Grama●iā ; who touching the Articles of the Roman Catholicke fayth , only denyed freewill ; as appeareth euen from the Protestant f f Illyr . catal . testium Vetir . tom. 2. printed 1597. pag. 872. Writers ; And who after (g) submitted himselfe to the Pope , and finally dyed in all poynts Catholicke ; all which this Authour affectedly concealeth . He saith of Valla in this sort : Valla wrote a Treatise of purpose , against the forged donation of Constantine : He pronounceth of his owne experience , that the Pope maketh war against peaceable People , and soweth discord betweene Cittyes ( ) Valla in his Apol. ad Eugenium Papam 4. Pontif . prope finem . and prouinces &c. With much more refuse of base matter , concerning the supposed coueteousnes of the Pope ; yet notwithstanding all this , he nameth not any one Article of Protestancy defended by Valla.

But the Pamphleter thus further proceedeth to others , saying : About h h Pag. 57. & sequentib . the same tyme liued Nicolaus Clemingius , who rebuked many things in the Ecclesiasticall State ; and spake excellently in the matter of Generall Councells &c. Petrus de Aliaco Cardinal of Cambray , gaue atract to the Councell of Constance , touching reformation of the Church ; There he doth reproue many notable abuses against the Romanists &c. About i i Pag. 58. the same tyme liued Leonardus Aretinus , whose litle Booke , against Hypocrates is worth the reading ; So is the Oration of Antontus Cornelius Linnicanus , laying open the lend lubricity of Priests in his dayes : So doth k k Pag. 59. he detect many abuses and errours , who wrote the ten agreiuances of Germany ; But those , who compiled the hundred agreuances of the German Nation , do discouer many more . And then the Pamphleter most ambitiously ( or rather ridiculously ) thus concludeth : By this tyme I trust , it is manifest , how false a slaunder of the Papistsis that before the dayes of Martin Luther , there was neuer any of our Religion . Egregiam verè laudem , & spolia ampla refectis . Tu calamusque t●●s .

For who obserueth not , how absurdly you Pamphleter do apologize . For the Visibility of your Church ? Thus ( good Reader ) thou seest , that this Authour instanceth in Valla , and others aboue mencioned , for Protestants ; and yet setteth not downe any one Article of Protestancy beleiued by them : for not any of them denyed the Reall presence , Purgatory , prayer to saincts , the Seauen Sacraments , Iustification by Works , the Popes Supremacy &c. All that this Authour can produce them for , is , because they did wryte Satyrically and bitterly against the abuses of the Church , in those dayes . But to this we replye ; That it is granted on all sydes , that both in the Catholicke and the Protestant Church , there haue bene ( and still are ) diuers of irregular and disedifying lyues . Must now those , who in their wrytings or Sermons reprehend such , be necessarily supposed to be of a different fayth from those , whom they so reprehend ? Who seeth not the weaknes of this inconsequent and absurd kynd of reasoning ?

From the former Iustances , the Pamphleter ascendeth to Iohn (l) Wiclef , prostituring him for a Protestant . And heere 〈◊〉 ) Pag. 60. also he spendeth many leaues in wandring excursions of speeches ; and indeede to no other end , but ( as I intimated a fore ) to dawbe inke vpon paper . For he pretendeth to show the Aussits had receaued their doctrine out of the Books of Wiclef ; how the Councell of Constance condemned Wiclef for an Heretiycke ; as also how the doctryne of Wiclef was much dilated heare in England . But to manifest , how impertinent the alledging of Wiclef for a Protestant is , I refer the Reader to the Dialogue ; where are showed out of Wiclefs one Wrytings the many Catholicke articles of the Roman Religion , ( to wit , the doctrine of the seauen Sacraments , Rites and Ceremonies of the Masse , praying to our Blessed Lady , worship of Images , merit of Works , and works of Supererogation &c. still beleiued by him , euen after his leaping out of our Church . As also there are showed the many condemned Heresies in like sort mantayned by him , after his departure from the Roman Church ; and this from the penns of the Protestants .

But here before I end with Wiclefe , I must put the Reader in mind of one notorious Collusion or deceate , much practized by this Pamphleter , touching diuers of the former men alledged for Protestants , but most particularly touching Wiclefe . It is this : He here particularizeth no Protestant articles , but only the denying of Transubstantiation ; yet where he aboundantly declareth , that W●clefe was condemned by the Church of Rome for his defence of many errours and Heresyes , he subtilly beareth the Reader in hand ( though he expresseth not any of them in particular ) that all these Heresyes condemned in him were points of protestancy ; thereby to make show , what a great number of protestant articles were beleiued in those dayes , and how much the said Men did participate in doctrine with the protestants of these tymes . But this is a meere sleight and imposture ; seeing it is euident , that besides some few points of protestancy beleiued by Wiclefe , Hu● , the Waldenses or Albigenses , there were many more Heresyes mantayned by them & then condemned by the Church of Rome ; Which are acknowledged for Heresyes , both by Catholicks and Protestants ; and such as in no sort concerne the Protestant Religion ; as way euidently appeare from the perusing of the seuerall passages of the former Dialogue ; wherein the heresies of Wiclefe , Hus , the Waldenses , and others are at large displayed .

From Wiclefe the pamphleter commeth to Geffray Chaucer . And thus he is forced by his owne poetizing and forging art , to beg some prouffe from Poets . Of Chaucer he thus wryteth . m m Pag. 69. He did at large paint out the pryde , lasciuious , vicious , and intellerable behauiour of the Popes , Cardinalls , and Cleargy &c. adding much more securili●y of his owne : and setting downe certaine verses of Chaucer . But what prooueth this ? For first , we are not in reason to giue credit to euery verse dropping from the satyricall penne of Chaucer . Secondly , admit all were true , that Chaucer writeth ; yet seeing his reprehensions do only touch manners and conuersation , and not fayth ; it followeth not , that Chaucer was a protestant ( as I haue intimated in the former examples ( or that the Protestant Religion was in his dayes professed , which is the only point here to be prooued . Thirdly , if it must be concluded that Chaucer for such his wryting was a protestant ; then by the same reason may Spencer the Poet , for his bitter taxing of the Cleargy in his Mother Hubbardstale ; and Daniel , for his controuling of the present tymes , touching Religion and Learning in his Musophilus , be reputed Catholicks or Papists ; & yet it is well knowne , they both were Protestants , and the later rather a puritan .

The Pamphleter next insisteth in one Walter n n Pag. 71. Bruit , an English Man , liuing anno 1393 and puteth him forth for a protestant , for his defending of diuers supposed doctrines of protestancy there set downe . To this I answere : first , he alledgeth no authenticall writer affirming so much , but only an obscure Register of the Bishop of Hereford : and therefore it may iustly be suspected to be meerely suppositions and forged ( or rather , that it is but feigned , that such a writing is ) seeing such a writing may with more facility be coyned without any discouery of deceat therein : as being to he found only among the Antiquityes , belonging to the sayd Bishop , who is a protestant . Secondly , suppose all for true : yet seeing that Scedule prooueth the sayd Bruite to be a protestant , but only in some points : it followeth , that he was Catholicke in the rest : and therefore can no more be challenged , for a protestant , then for a Catholicke : being the fayth of a professour in any Religion ought to be entyre , perfect , & compleate ; otherwise no man can take his denomination and name from the same fayth . Thirdly , suppose him to be a Protestant in all points , yet seing he is but one particular man ; & that it cannot be prooued , that others did communicate with him in doctrine , his example cannot prooue the visibility of the Protestant Church : since one man alone cannot be accounted for a Church . Lastly , this example serueth ( admitting it for true ) but for the tyme , that Bruyte liued ; It not being able to be prooued , that the doctrines of Protestancy ( imputed to him ) were taught and beleiued in all other Ages and Centuryes .

This donne , the Pamphleter o o Pag. 7● . proceedeth to diuers burnt and put to death for their Religion , in the dayes of King Henry the fourth , the fift , and the sixt , King Edward the fourth , and King Henry the seauenth . Which testimonyes he taketh out of that lying Legend of Fox ; to which booke no more credit is to be giuen , then to Esop fables . But to these examples , I reply first . The Treatiser setteth not downe the Protestant articles mantayned by these men , for their defence of which , they are here presumed to be burned : And therefore it well may be , that they suffered death for their broaching of some other heresyes or blasphemyes , not controuerted between the Protestant and the Catholicke ; & therefore such Examples are wholy impertinent . Secondly , if we do admit the authority of Fox herein ; yet it proueth , that those men lost their liues , but for one , two , or three particular points ( at the most ) of protestancy , mantayned seuerally by eich of them ; they embracing all other poynts of Catholicke Religion : being both more in number and of greater importance ; And if it be otherwise , then let this Authour prooue ▪ 〈◊〉 were Protestants in all chiefe Articles of Protestancy .

Now how insufficiently such examples can be suggested , for the visibility of the Protestant Church in former Ages , appeareth , both from that already set downe in this Suruey ; as also more fully from the perusall of the former Treatise .

And here the Reader is to obserue , that as such men ( aboue mentioned ) cannot iustly be taken for Catholicks , so may they truly be ranged for hereticks ; seing a stubborne and contumacious beleife but of one heresy , maketh a man , an hereticke : Whereas it must be an ●nanimous fayth of all points of true Religion ( without exception of any ) which is exacted for making a man a true beleiuer : For the nature of true fayth doth here participate , of the nature of an action morally vertuous ; Which is become defectiue , through the want of one due circumstance only , but is made perfect and complete , by the necessary presence of all due circumstances .

After the former examples , he commeth to Marsilius * * Pag. 78. de Padua ( an acknowledged Hereticke ) Who cheifly erred in denying the Popes authority Now the Pamphleter to make his doctrine in this one point , to seeme more diuers in seuerall points from the doctrine of the Catholicks , subtilly deuideth it ( in setting it downe ) into seuerall branches . But to what end is this example pressed ? Seing it was the errour but of one Man at that tyme , and principally but in one Controuersy ; He comparting with the Catholicks in the doctrine of the Reall presence , Purgatory , Freewill , praying to Saints , merit of Works , Traditions &c.

In the next place he vrgeth two Italian Poets , Dantes and l l (r) Pag. 79. & 80. Petrach for Protestants , because they did wryte somewhat in depressing the Popes Authority , in behalfe of the Emperour .

Now to discouer more fully the Pamphleters falshood , in his producing these two Italian Poëts ( Dante 's and Petrach ) as supposed by him * * Pag. 81. to teach , that the Pope is Antichrist , and Rome Babilon , I will heare proue : from their owne wrytings the meere contrary to this his impudent assertion . And first touching Dantes ; He thus wryteth of S. Peter in his Italian verses .

O luce 1 1 Cant. 24 del Pa●ad . etern● del gran viro , A cui nostro Signor lascio le chiaui , Ch' ei portò giùda questo gaudio mir● . That is : O eternal light of that great man , To whom our Lord did leaue the keyes , which He did carye with wonderfull ioye .

In lyke sort , touching Rome it selfe he thus discourseth .

Non 2 2 Cant. 2. dell Inferno . pare indeg no al huomo d'intelletto , Che ei su de l'alma Roma , & de suo impero Nel' empirco ciel' per padre eletto . La quale , el quale à voler direilvero , Fur stabilite per lo loco sancto ; r ' fiede il successor del maggior Piero.

In which verses Rome is called a reuerend Citty ; a holy place ; fortified and strenghtned euen from Heauen ; and finally the seate of Peter .

Againe , Dantes was much aduers against Pope Nicolas the third ; whom being dead Dantes notwithstanding thus honored with his Verse .

Et 3 3 Cant. 19. dell . Inferno . se , non fusse , ch' aucor le me vieta I ariuerentia delle summe chiani , Cheiutenesti vella vita lieta , Iover ei parcle ancor più graut .

In which words Dantes confesseth plainly , that the reuerence , which he did beare to this Pope , in regard that he receaued the keyes of the Church ( meaning supreme authority in Christs Church ) was the cause , why he did forbeare to wryte more sharply against hym . Finally , to omit many other lyke passages , Dantes saith , that Boniface the eight :

Ne 4 4 Cant. 22. del' Inferno . summo offitio , ne Ordini sacri Guardò in se .

In which verse he acknowledeth , that supreme authority and holy Orders did resyde in Boniface ; whose manners were otherwise displesing to Dantes .

In this next place I will come to Petrarch , who thus wryteth in acknowledging the power of the Bishop of Rome . 5 5 Lib. 1. Seuilium Epistolarum ad Talanādum Cardinalem . Quis ( quaeso ) non stupeat , simulque non gaudeat , si amicus sit Vicario IESV CHRISTI ? And further : Romano 6 6 Lib. 1. Inuectiuarum contra Medicum . Pontifici omnes , qui Christiano nomine glortamur , non modo consilium , sed obs●quium insuper & obedientiam debemus . All we , who glory in the name of Christians , do owe not only counsell , but duty and obedience to the Bishop of Rome .

Now for greater euidency of this poynt , I will descend to the particular prayses , geuen by Petrarch , to particular Popes in his Italian booke , written of the liues of Popes .

We there then find , that of Pope Vrbanus 5. he thus writeth : Fu nelle sacre Scripture dottissimo , & santamente visse : Vrbanus was most learned in the holy Scriptures , and liuod most Sanctly . Of Clemens 6. he thus recordeth : Fu & per nome , & per fatti , di molte virtù pieno : Clement was both for his name and for his deeds , replenished with much vertue . Of Benedict . 12. these are his words : Beneditto fatto Papa reformò l'Ordine di S. Benedetto &c. era feruido nella fide , & nelle buone operezelatore : Benedict being created Pope , did reforme the Order of S. Benedict &c. He was feruerous in the fayth , and zelous in good works . &c.

To be short , of Iohn 22. he thus saith : Costuifu ottimo & glorioso Pastore ; fece molti bein , & Hereticiper zelo della fide condamno ! This man was a very good and glorious Pastour ; He did many good deeds , and condemned Hereticks , out of his zeale to the fayth . And now I ref●r to any in different iudgment , whether these two Italian Poëtes ( Dante 's and Petrarch ) did thinke the Pope of Rome to be Antichrist , or no , ( as our 7 7 Pag. 81. Pamphleter semeth to vrge , ●hey did ) and whether the former prayses can be truly applyed to Anthichrist , & the whoare of Babilon : ●o euident it is , that what the foresaide Poets did Sa●yrically wryce , was written only against some disorders in the Church of Rome , and against the presumed faults of some particular Popes ; but neuer against their supreme dignity in the Church of Christ . And as touching the former Popes by Petrarch so commended ; We are to remember , that his prayses deliuered of them , where written after the deaths of the said Popes ; and therefore his words could not be censured to proceede from adulation and flattery ; but according to his owne true and secret iudgment passed vpon those Popes .

In the same manner , for their lyke inue●ghing against the fulnes of the Popes power and iurisdiction , he alledgeth certaine obscure men ; to wit , Dulemus , Hayabalus , Ioannes Biraensis , Ioannes de Rupe scissa , three religious Men ; who liued and dyed ( in respect of all other poynts ) in the Roman Church . And yet touching Ioannes de Rupe scissa , both this Authour and the authour of Catalogus testium veritatis : ( From whom this man taketh it ) are deceaued , if we may beleiue Fox * * Vide Fox in act . Mon. speaking of this Ioanne● de Rupe scissa . who thus wrytes of hym : Ioannes de Rupe scissa , liued in the yere 1340. who for his rebuking of the spiritually for their great enormittes , and neclecting their office , was cast into prison .

Our Pamphleter after produceth Gerson for a Protestant , of whom he thus saith : Gerson * * Pag. 81. saw in his ages many horrible abuses of the Church of Rome , and in his wrytings spake liberally of it . Is not this a learned prouf for Gersons being Protestant in all poynts of Protestancy ?

After all the former ●nstances the Pamphleter ( euen for want of other matter ) returneth back againe to the Waldenses t t Pag. 82. or Albigenses , iterating with a tedious prolixity his former discou●s concerning them , and this in many leaues : Whereby he sheweth the extreme mendicity of his Cause ; and that he laboreth with all Art possible , to draw out this his Treatise ( as is aboue said ) into some reasonable number of sheets . But touching the Waldenses , I refer the Reade● ( as afore I willed ) to the p●rticular passage of Waldo , in the former Dialogue .

His former Extrauagancyes of discours being ended , he is not ashamed to challenge S. Bernard u u Pag. 91. for a Protestant , of whom he thus wryteth : Before our ascending thus high , we might tell you of S. Bernard , whom all though it is lykely at the first dash , you will challenge as your owne ; yet when you haue well aduized of hym , you may let hym go againe . O perfrictam front●m , and wonderfull Impudency . For who is so ignorant or so bould , that wil not confesse S. Bernard to haue bene a Roman Catholicke in all points ? He was a religious Man , and Abbot of Claireuaux and Authour of many Monasteryes in Flanders and France ( as O siander x x Epiton . Cent. 12. p. 309. the Protestant confesseth ) he also was Pryest , and said Masse to his dying day ( as all Writers of him do testify ) A poynt so euident , that for his being a great and eminent member of our Catholicke Church , the Centurists ( al Protestants ) thus censure him : Bernard●●s y y Cent. 12 col. 1627. and 1638. coluit Deum Maozim , ad nouissimum vitae suae articulum : And further they say of him : Bernardus fuit acerrimus propugnator sedis Antichristi , Bernard was an earnest defendour of the sea●e of Antichrist . Here now I refer to the candid and vpright Reader , what impudency it was in this Man , to challenge Bernard for a member of the Protestant Church . But heere touching S. Bernard , I cannot but abserue this Authours fraud and imposturous cariadge , who tearmeth all such Articles , wherein S. Bernard did agree with vs ; as the Sacrifice of the Masse , Purgatory , merit of Works , free will praying to saincts , and indeed all other Catholicke Articles whatsoeuer ( only his boldnes of wryting to Pope Eugenius excepted , to whom afore he had bene Mayster , and therevpon presumed to wryte more freely ) Slips a a Pag 92. & Lapses , b b Pag. 93. as they were beleiued by him : which in vs Catholicks he exagerateth by the name of Superstition , Idolatry &c. And thus we may see , how one and the same Cause being exemplified in different Persons , is by this Pamphleters deceate , diuersly censured .

Leaning S. Bernard , the Authour generally ( but with out any prouf at all ) wisheth his c c Pag. 95. Reader to thinke , that the Protestant Church was in all Countries in Christendome , and did lie hid , as those Iewes did in the tyme of Elias , for feare of Persecution . But this he only saith , but proueth not : and it is therefore reiected with the same facilitie , with which it was spoken .

Now touching those Men , who conceales their fayth for feare of persecution , I refer the Reader to the former dialogue , wherein the weaknes of this pretext of Persecution is particularly displayed .

That done , the Pamphleter sayth , that d d Pag. 96. India , Armenia , Asia the l●ssar , and Egypt , had in former tymes Christians in them ( for he giueth them no other name , then Christians : ) And then he inferrs , without any proofe at all , or instances in the points of their Religion , that they were Protestants . Poore man , that thus most insensibly reasoneth : Seing we find the Christians of all those Countreyes to agree in all the cheife points , with the present Roman Churrch ; Only some of them do not acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome , aboue all other Bishopps .

In the last place of all , he much insisteth in the Greeke e e pag. 96. Church ( within which are included the Russes and Muscouits ) he thus saying thereof : The Greeke Church was neuer so much as in show extinguished ; And from whome the Russians and Muscou●ts had their fayth . And then a little after he thus enlargeth himselfe : We should do wrong to Almighty God &c. to pull from him , so many ample Churches ( meaning the Greeke Church , & the others aboue specifyed ) inferring from thence , that the Protestant Church did in former ages rest visible , euen in the Greeke Church .

Now this his shamelesse alleadging of the Greeke Church for Protestants , shal be confronted with the testimony of Syr Edwin f f In his Relation of th estate of Religion vsed in the Westparts of the World , in the last fol●o , but fiue . Sands ( a man of his owne Religion ) who plainly affirmeth , that the Greeke Church doth concurre with Rome in opinion of Transubstantiation , & generally in the sacrifice and whole Body of the Masse , in praying to Saints , in au●●cular Confession , in offering Sacrifice and prayer for the dead , Purgatory , & worshipping of pictures . Yea the Protestant Deuines g g In their booke entituled : Acta Theologorum Wittenbergensoum & Ieremiae Patriarchae Constan●in●p . de Augustana Confession &c. Wittenbergae Anno , 1584. of Magdeburg do record , that the Greeke Church doth not only beleiue all the former Articles , recited by Syr Edwin Sands ; but also that it beleiueth and teacheth the signifying Ceremonyes of the Masse , Confirmation with Crisme , Extreme V●ction , all the seauen Sacraments , Almes for the dead , freewill , Monachisme , vowes of Chastity , the fast of Lent , and other prescribed fasts , that Priests may not mary after Orders taken , and finally that the tradition & doctrine of the Fathers is to be kept . Now heere I refe●re to any one not blinded with preiudice , whether the professours of the Greeke Church , are to be accounted for Catholicks or Protestants : And from hence we may disc●uer the idle and ridiculous vaunting of this Pamphleter , who in the close of this point touching the Greeke Churches being protestant , and a continuall Vis●●ili●y of Protestancy in the said Churches , thus insulteth : Looke to these places ( you Papists ) and Imagine , that if there had beene none , but these ; yet the words of the Scripture , (i) Pag. 97. which in generality speake of a spouse , had beene true : And Christ had there had his Body vpon earth : and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished , if neither We , nor the Synago●ue of Rome had beene extant . Thus he .

His former examples being ended , he entertayneth his Reader with great store of frothy and needlesse matter , touching former differences betweene the Popes and Emperours , the (k) Pag. 98. 99. 100. Kings of England and France . And then all such persons , as did bandy themselues either by wryting or otherwise with the said Emperour or Kings , agaynst the Popes of those tymes , the Pamphleter vrgeth for Protestants though the cheife cause of such differences betweene the Popes and the sayd Princes , was touching Distribution of Ecclesiasticall Liuings , within their owne Realmes . That done , the Treatiser extra●agantly discourseth in his de●lamatory rayling veyne , that the Pope is Antichrist : But how rouing and wandring all this is to the title of his Pamphlet , and prouing of his owne Churches visibility ( the which he obliged himselfe to performe ) may appeare , by what is already set downe .

After all this , & for a Close of all , he obiecteth ( for forme-sake , as if his taking notize of what , we can truly obiect against his wryting , were a sufficient answere to it ) certaine exceptions vrged by the Catholicks , agaynst his former Instances of protestancy : Which Obiections of ours being set downe , he shapeth no true Answere vnto them . And first , he thus obiecteth in our behalfe : (l) The Papists will beginne and say , that 〈◊〉 Pag. 102. we rake together , as the Auncestours and forerunners of our fayth , such as were notorious Hereticks , as Wicklefe , Hus , or the Waldenses &c. To which ( after much securtility of words ) he finally thus answereth : We do m m Pag. 103. not beleiue that all those , are Hereticks , whom you Papists will so call or account . But we reply hereto , and say ; That not only the Catholicks , but the Protestants themselues do particularly charge Wicklefe , Hus , the Waldenses , as also Almaricus , Peter Bruus , &c. with many grosse and absurd Heresyes , acknowledged for such euen by our Aduersaryes ; as may abundantly appeare by recurring to the seuerall passages of this former Dialogue . The defence of which heresyes doth necessarily make their defendours , absolute Heroticks : seing they were mantayned by Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , &c. with a froward and open contempt of the authority of Gods Church , publikly teaching the contrary : far differently from S. Austin , S. Cyprtan , and Lactantius , their beleiuing certayne errours ( the which this Pamphleter , for the more lesning of the Heresyes of Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , &c. in p. 112. suttely repeateth ) seing these Fathers taught them only , as their owne probable opinions : euer submitting ( with all Obedience ) their Iudgments therein , to the supreme Iudgments of Christ his Church . Ad hereto , that seing those Books written by Catholicks of those tymes , do indifferently charge Wicklefe , Hus , Waldo , and their followers with mantayning of some one point or other of protestancy , and with diuers absurd Heresyes : The authority therefore of those Writers are eyther equally to be beleiued in all their accusations , or equally to be reiected in them all : And the rather , seing they could not foretell ( a consideration much to be obserued ) or presage , what points touching fayth and Religion , and different from the then Roman fayth ( wherewith Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , &c. were then charged ) would be professed , bele●ued , and mantayned in these dayes , by the enemyes of the Church of Rome : And therefore it necessarily followeth , that the accusations passed in former times vpon Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , and the rest , are either in generall true , or in generall false : If false , then haue we no sufficient Records , that there were any in those dayes , who beleiued any points of protestancy : If true , then certayne it is , that as Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , &c. mantayned some points of protestancy , so with all , that they mantayned diuers explorate Heresies : and acknowledged for such both by Catholicks and Protestants .

Secondly , the Pamphleter obiected in the Catholicks name in this sort : None n n Pag. 110. of all those , which hitherto haue beene named , or can be named ( meaning for Protestants ) but in some knowne , confessed , and vndowbted Opinions did varye from you : And therefore they and you Protestants may not be said to be all of one Church . This difficulty he salueth with a most impudent and bare denyall , saying : All those , whom before I haue named , did generally for all mayne Matters teach the same , Which we now teach . What forhead or shame hath this Man ? For First , as touching Waldo , Wiclef , Hus , and their followers ( in whom through out this Pamphlet , the Authour principally insisteth ) It is confessed by Osiander , Luther , Fox , and other Protestants , as also it appeareth by some of their owne Wrytings , that they agreed with the Catholicks in most points of Catholicke Religion , which were of greatest moment ( as in the Reall Presence , seuen Sacrements , praying to Saincts , Purgatory , frewill , Merit of Works , and in all other most principall Articles of the present Roman Religion ) Concerning the proufe of all which poynts , I remit the Reader to the Former Dialogue . Secondly , touching other obscure Men , alledged by the Pamphleter for Protestants he commonly and for the most part ( some two or three excepted ) exemplifieth no other Article of Protestancy defended by them , then their disobedience and inueighing against the Bishop of Rome . But if he could haue iustly auerred them for Protestants in all chiefe Articles , why would he not as well particulary set the said Articles of Protestancy downe , as he did the other , touching their disclayming from the authority of the Bishop of Rome ? Ad hereto , that many are produced for Protestants by this Authour , only for their sharply speaking and writing against the manners and conuersation of the Cleargy in those dayes ; they not dissenting from the doctrine of the then Church of Rome in any one article whatsoeuer ; & euer euen ackuowledging the Primacy of that Sea .

To all the former poynts I may adioyne this following Consideration . That supposing the forsaid alledged Men were protestants in all poynts : yet do they not proue the Visibility of the true Church of Christ , for these Reasons ensuing : First , because they were but few in number , and in regard of such their paucity , the Predictions of the amplitude largnes , and continuall splendour of Christ Church could not be performed in that small number . Touching which predictions , peruse the beginning of the Dialogue : Secondly , because neither this Authour , nor any other Protestant liuing ( how learned soeuer ) can proue , that , there were in those tymes ( specified by this Pamphleter ) any Administration of the Word and Sacraments practized by any of these supposed Protestants : which euer necessarily concurs to the existence and being of the true Church ; as is demonstrated in the former Tract . Thirdly , because the former Men could but serue for instances during their owne lyues , and no longer ; The Pamphleter not being able to name any one Man for a Protestant , for the space of many Ages and Centuryes together : which poynt being so , impugneth not only the Nature of Christs true Church , which must at all tymes and ages be most visible ; but also it crosseth the Title of this Pamphlet : wherein the Authour vndertaketh to proue the Visibility of his Church in all Ages .

Thus far now ( Good Reader ) I haue labored in surueighing this Idle Pamphlet . Now for they better memory , I will breifly recapitulate and repeate certaine chiefe impostures and deceatefull deportements , practized by this Authour throughout his Booke . And then I will remit both him and his Treatise , to they owne impartiall Iudgment .

1. First then , I may remember his putting no name to his Booke , nor taking any Notize of the then late Conference in London , touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church : nor once naming M. Fisher and M. Sweete , the two then disputants . Which concealed Cours our Pamphleter purposly affected in all probability : seing otherwise he might well thinke , that the setting of his owne Name downe ( especially if the Authour were either D. Whyte or D. Featly ) or hauing in this discours particular reference to the foresaid Disputation , might sooner draw on an answere to his Pamphlet , from one of the said two Fathers , or from some other Priest .

2. Secondly , You may call to mynd , that in the first part of his Treatise , he laboreth to proue rather the Inuisibility of the true Church , then the Visibilitie thereof ( contrary to the Inscription of his Pamphlet ) cheifly to intimate thereby , that a continuall Visibility of the true Church is not so necessarily to be exacted , as we Catholicks do teach it is : and consequently , that what few , weake , may●ied , and imperfect proufs and examples for the continuance of protestancy , he was after to alledge , the same might be thought sufficient and strong enough , for the establishing of his owne Churches Visibility .

3. Thirdly , The pamphleter callengeth any one for a Protestant who did but hould one or two Articles of protestancy ( and especially if he did but impugne the Popes authority ) or did wryte against the Manners & conuersation of the Cleargy of those dayes ; though otherwyse he did agree with the Church of Rome , in all Articles of fayth .

4. Fourthly , He callengeth those for protestants , who were condemned by the Church of Rome , for other Errours , then are mantayned by the protestants ; so making the ignorant Reader beleiue , that the Pope in those dayes condemned only the doctrines of Protestants for Heresies . this the pamphleter doth to the end , that the number of the professours of his Church in those dayes might seeme the greater , in his Readers eye .

5. Fyftly , he most cauteously concealeth the Catholicke doctrynes , euer beleiued by Hus , Wiclefe , Waldo &c. as also sic most falsly extenuateth such Heresies , as they mantayned , & are acknowledged for Heresies euen by learned protestants ; The Treatizer subtelly forbearing to name or set downe ( in expres Words ) any one of their Heresies .

6. Sixtly , For want of better Authours , he fleeth to the testimonyes euen of Poëts ( as Chaucer , Da●●es , Petrarch ) vrging them for protestants ; only by reason of their Satyrs , written against the supposed abuses of Rome .

7. Seauently , he most impertinently dilateth and spreadeth hymselfe , in long and tedious discourses , touching the increase of the Doctrine of Waldo , Hus , Wiclef &c. as also touching the Contentions betweene the Popes , and the Emperours , the Kings of England and France ; and finally spendeth diuers leaues in rayling against the Pope , as Antichrist : All which werisome prolixityes he vseth , thereby to spine out his booke to some resonable lenght or quantity ; seing otherwise to the title of his booke , they are mearly impertinent .

8. Eightly , his Monstrous Impudency is to be obserued , in making S. Bernard , and the Greeke Church in former tymes , as also the Churches in India , Armenia , Asiae , Minor , Egipt &c. to be protestants , without showing any one Protestant Article , that they did hould ; excepting the Greeke Church , denying the Popes Supremacy .

9. Nynthly , The title of his Booke , being to proue the continual Visibility of his owne Church in all ages , he produceth his Examples of protestancy ( supposing them for the tyme , to be true Examples ) only for the first three or foure hundred yeres before Luthers dayes ; and so ( mearly crose to the title of his booke ) he omitteth eleuen hundred yeres , without geuing instance of any one protestant , during all those Ages .

10. Tenthly , Touching the Compas of those few ages , for which he produceth some supposed Examples , his fraud and calumny is , to begine from Luther vpward ( and not downward towards Luther ) thereby the better ( as is aboue said ) to conceale from a vulgar Eye , the small number of those ages or Centuryes , for which he endeuoreth to proue the imaginary Visibility of the protestant Church .

11. Eleuently and lastly , his stilling the Catholicke Articles ( to wit of the Reall Presence , Purgatorye , free will , praying to Saincts , and all the rest , beleiued by S. Bernard and other Catholicks only Lapses and Slipps ; the beleife of which Articles in vs Catholicks at this present he , commonly calls Idolatry , Superstition &c. But this alleuiation of words and speech he vseth most subtelly of S. Bernard that so notwithstanding S. Bernards different beleife yet by this Pamphleter he neuertheles may be reputed a good protestant .

Thus far ( Good Reader ) of his cheife affected sleightes And with this I end , referring this one Consideration vnto thee . That is : Yf the question of the Visibility of the protestant Church through the Conference had thereof at London ( immediatly before the comming out of this Pamphlet ) and occasion of that other Toy , intituled : The Fisher catched in his owne M●t , was at that tyme , much discoursed and talked of by many Men through out the land ; and therefore the Mantayners of this Visibility did stand more obliged ( by all Reading and learning possible ) to iustify the same ; being then and at all tymes , so much prouoked vnto it by vs Catholickes , and if neuertheles , the Authour heare refuted , being stiled in the Epistle of this Treatise : A most reuerend , and learned Man , and one who hath more particularly and perspicuously traualled in this Argument , then any in our English tongue ; And therefore he may be presumed in all lyklyhood , to haue spoken in defence thereof , as much as can be spoken therein : Yf ( I say ) this Man cannot but for three or foure ages only ( and these , nearest to Luthers dayes ) seeke to iustify the same ; and this by meanes of some few , false , defectiue , and misapplyed examples and Instances , accompanied with diuers frauds impostures , and Collusions : What other thing then from hence may be concluded , but that it is impossible to make good or proue the Visibility of the Protestants Church , during all the ages since Christ to Luthers dayes ( or indeed , du●ing but any one ●ge thereof ) And consequently , that the Protestant Church , for want of such a necessary Visibility ( euer attending o●● the true Church of Christ ) is not , nor can be the true Church of Christ ?

FINIS .

THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW OR THE THIRD DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEW .

Betweene . The right honorable , the Lord Cheife Iustice of England . Michaeas , the former Conuerted Iew. M. Vice Chancelour of Oxford .

The Contents hereof the Argument following , will show .

Vide mulierem ebriam de sanguine Sanctorum ,

Apocalips . 17.

THE ARGVMENT OF THE THIRD DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS . STILED THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW.

MICHAEAS , after his disputation ended in Oxford , with D. Reynolds , Ochinus , and Neuserus , touching the Inuisibility of the Protestant Church ; and giuing it out , that he would instantly depart from thence ; Neuerthelesse lyeth secretly in Oxford , and hath peculiar acquaintance with some of the choyest witts there ; whome he persuadeth to the Catholicke , and Roman fayth .

The Vice-Chancelour of Oxford , hearing thereof , apprehendeth Michaeas , conuenteth him before the right Honourable the Lord Cheife-Iustice of England ; before whome he stands arraigned of three Crymes . The first , that ( according to the falsely supposed Principles of the Roman Religion ) he laboreth to plant disloyalty in the Schollars mindes . The which Michaeas absolutly denyeth ; and thereupon retorteth ( by way of recrimination ) the cryme of Disloyalty vpon the Protestants , both for their doctrine thereof , and for their practise . The second offence vrged by the Vice-Chancelour is , that Michaeas did write certayne short Discourses of diuers points of Catholicke Religion , and diuulged them to the Schollars of his acquaintance : Of which discourses the Vice-Chancelour getting a copie ( of Michaeas his owne hand wryting ) deliuereth it ( in the presence of Michaeas ) to the Lord Cheife-Iustice . This Action Michaeas acknowledgeth it , as true , and warranteth it by force of Reason , and strong example . The third Cryme . That , Michaeas ( being a Roman Priest ) vndertaketh to reconcile some Schollars to the Church of Rome , and daily celebrateth Masse .

All this Michaeas granteth vnto , iustifying such his proceeding , by deducing the antiquity of Priesthood : of the power of remitting sinnes ( in the Sacrament of Pennance ) and of the Masse euen from the times of the Apostles , and the Primatiue Church : By reason of which occasion , the present state of Priests , and Catholicks in England , is impart discoursed of .

To conclude ( omitting diuers other short insertions , & passages in the Dialogue , incidently occurring ) the Lord Cheife-Iustice ( as inclining to clemency , and commiseration ) proceedeth to an honorable , and myld Censure , or iudgment against Michaeas ; at which censure the Vice-Chancelour mightely stormeth . And so , ( Michaeas , earnestly praying for the Kings health , and true happynes ) the Dialogue endeth .

THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW BEING A DIALOGVE BETWEENE THE RIGHT HONORABLE THE LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE OF ENGLAND MICHAEAS THE CONVERTED IEW AND M. VICE-CHANCELOVR OF OXFORD . Wherein is prooued ( besides diuers other short insertions ) that the Protestants stands more chargeable with disloyalty to their Lawfull Princes , then Catholicks do . THE VICE-CHANCELOVR .

MY Lord . All duty to your Lordship . I haue here brought before your Lordship , a Man most turbulent in his proceedings ; and who of late hath much ruffled , and disordered the fi●e , and quiet state of our Vniuersity , by seeking to infect the Schollars thereof , with his Popish , and superstitious doctrines : One , whom kinde , and curteous entertaynment ( for such he hath found at our hands ) cannot mollify , and whose demerits are of that nature , as that Compassion shewed to him , would prooue Cruelty to others ; And we should become accessory to our owne hurt , to suffer such a man to passe vn punished . Therefore I hope your Lordship will not preserue him , whom the Law hath ouerthrowne ; nor suffer his present calamity ( how great soeuer it may seeme ) to attract from your cleere iudgment commiseration , & pitty ; But rather you will vouchsafe to remember , that he doubteth his crime , who masketh it vnder the tecture of Religion .

This is that Michaeas ; homo a a Act. 24. The Iewes so called S. Paul in their Accusation . pestiferus & concitans seditionem ; who after his disputation in our Vniuersity with the most learned D. Reynolds , made show presently to leaue our vniuersity , and to retire himselfe into some forayne Countrey : But many months haue since that time passed : He , during all the whyle , secretly lourking among vs ( so the Spidar lyes close , to surprise the incautelous flee ) seeketh to get priuate acquaintance with diuers eminent Maisters of Arts , and others of the yonger sort . Which being obtayned , he then enuenometh their iudgments with Superstition , and Idolatry , and with his other Romish positions , breathing disobedience , & disloyalty against the Magistrate . And indeed he hath such a facility by slye , and subtill insinuations , to serue himselfe within the Schollars affections , as that it is most wounderfull : For first he commonly beginneth a farre off , to talke with them of the nature of other Countreyes , and of his owne trauells in other vniuersityes ( to which discourses our Schollars do lend their greedy eares ) before euer he entreth to talke of Religion ; And so ( like a good tabler , ) he vsually playeth with them an aftergame , the more speedily to come to his designed end . The hurt , which he hath already perpetrated in our vniuersity ( which is one of the two eyes of the whole Realme ) is great and insufferable ; and your Lordship well knowes , that b b Math. cap. 5. if the eye be wicked , then all the Body shal be darke . Therefore now at the lenght hauing apprehended him , I haue conuerted him before your Lordship that so he may be punished by the Law , who hath transgressed the Law .

LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE .

Stand forth Michaeas . Many and greiuous ( you see ) are the complaints giuen vp agaynst you ; from which you must either truly vindicate your selfe , by being faultles therein , or otherwise you must vndergoe the chastisment appointed for such offences . And though we Iudges be ordayned to punish what is euill ; yet we are to wish , that men do not prooue themselues euill : And therefore I desire , that your Innocency ( if innocent you be ) may be here cleared : for I hould it a farre greater ouersight to punish the guiltles , then to leaue vnpunished the guilty ; Since Iustice instructeth vs not to delight in punishment , but to recurre to it for playne necessity . Now speake Michaeas , what you can in your owne defence .

MICHAEAS .

My Lord . I do heare first prostrate myselfe in all Humility before your Honour ; resting glad , that though my accuser haue wronged me by thus falsly traducing me before your L. yet that it is my fortune , to appeare before such a Iudge , with whom Innocency shall find it sanctuary , and only true faults be corrected : for I presume , that that sentence of the Psalmist is euen imprinted and sealed vp in your hart : c c Psalm . 57. Rectè iudicate filij hominum .

Now for my more iust defense your L. may heare be aduertized , that I am a Iew by byrth and Nation , and a Roman by Religion ; and do hould , that Ierusalem , ( I meane the Church of Rome , which is vpon earth , the spirituall d d Ioan. cap. 4. Ierusalem ) is the place , where Men ought to worship . I came into this florishing Kingdome , only through my greate desire of seeing your famous and so much celebrated Vniuersityes , with intention of returne in a conuenient tyme. Now I trust ( my L. I speake it vnder correction of your more experienced Iudgment ) that I , as being a stranger , and not borne within these dominions , do not stand precisly subiect to the lawes of the said dominions ; And therefore , what I haue committed ( suppose most to be true , as most of it is false ) may well be an errour in me ; but any heinous cryme ( as now it is exagitated ) it cannot be . And further euery Man well knowes , that euen by the lawe of Nations , the very name of a stranger ( who in this respect cannot take particular notise of the Municipall statuts and Ordinances of the Realme ) doth pleade excuse for many Transgressions ; the committers whereof being borne subiects , are seuerely and deseruedly punished . Therefore my L. since Lawes are made rather to succour , then to wound Mankynd , I dowbt not , but your L. will heare dispence with all sterne seuerity , and will remember that saying of an auncient Father : Facilius Ira , quam Indulgentia obliqua est .

VICE CHANCELOVR .

See you not my L. how this Polypragmon , this Michaeas dare not only ( without feare ) violate the lawes of our Realme ; but also will needs braue it before your Lorship , that for being a stranger , and not borne in our Nation , he stands not subiect to the said Lawes ? and thereupon doth iustify his impietyes ; but it seemes he gloryes to be extremly facinorous : e e Tertul. lib de Pudicit . Est & mali dignitas , quod in summo pessimorum collocetur .

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

Michaeas . Your Plea heare is most weake and defectiue for though you be a stranger , and as you say , not borne vnder the lawes of our Dominions ; yet you must know , that you had leasure enoughe to be acquainted with our Lawes , before you entred into our Country , or at lest within short tyme after . And you must conceaue , that the Lawes being made by the consent of the whole Realme , are not to be violated in fauour of any one Man . Furthermore , where you speake of Priuiledges and Indulgences allowed to strangers euen by all Nationall Lawes ; you must ●●ke notize , that these fauours are imparted to strangers with some conditions and restrictions ; to wit , if the bad comp●rtment and cariadge of the said strangers do not worthely 〈◊〉 them of participating of the said Priuiledges ; since otherwise , no reason there is , why they should be partakers of them ; And indeed the lesse reason , because in tyme of Necessity , when the Prince is to command aydes , forces , or Tributs from his subiects , no such releife and helps can be expected at the hands of any strangers , resyding in his Country . Lastly , it were repugnant to the nature of Iustice ( which in it selfe is euer sacred and inuiolable ) that a stranger , ( such an one , as you Michaeas , are ) by comming into a forrayne Country , and as it were , by indeuizing hymselfe for the tyme , should become a subiect in the fruition of the benefits of the said Country ; And yet , when he would performe any vnlawfull act , he should of new create himselfe a stranger . Therefore ( Michaeas ) my iudgment here is , that you stand obnoxions and subiect to our lawes ; And therefore you must either plead yourselfe innocent in the obiected Crymes ; or els the Lawes of our Realme will iustly take hould of you . What say you therefore to the offences , wherewith you heere stand charged ?

MICHAEAS .

Well my good Lord : since it is so I humbly submit myselfe to your L. graue iudgment heerein , and do willingly recalle my former mistaking , in alledging the priuiledge of a stranger . Yet I hope I rest excusable : since not knowing , but that it might stand in force , I had no reason ( by not insisting vpon it at the first ) to be vniust to myne owne Innocency , or to be slow in myne owne defence . Now my L. to come to the obiected Offences . Where first I must say , that though an extraordinary Loue of Iustice doth sometymes cause Iniustice in the louer : Yet no such effects do I feare in your L. since you are one , who will impartially censure of Mens Actions , as they are in themselfs : and not as they are tragically amplified by the tongue of malice .

Touching then my accusations , I must put your Lordship in minde , that my Aduersaryes Serpentine ( not Prudence , according to our Sauiours words , but ) Subtilty , hath in accusing of me , so affectedly mingled together Truths with falshoods , as that I can neither with one breath absolutely acknowledge all , nor absolutly deny all . Yf I say , I haue not persuaded some Schollars of the Vniuersity to the Catholicke Roman Religion , I do lye ; And if I do confesse , that I haue diuulged to them any Positions of our Religion , as supposed to contayne the seeds of disobedience and disloyalty to their Prince ( besides the vntruth thereof ) I should be false to myselfe , and wrongfully become my owne Accuser . Therefore ) to seuer and ●ane theese two different poynts , one from the other ) know you ( most worthy Iudge ) that I do freely grant , that during my stay in this your celebrious Vniuersity , I haue moued diuers of the students to embrace our Catholicke and only true Religion . And if it be then an offence to persuade a Man to saue his soule , I do heere acknowledge my selfe to be an offendour in this Kynd , and shall receaue with comfort any imposed punishments for the same : But if it had been far better for one , to haue lyed in euerlasting Informitye and Abis of Nothing , then to enioye a Being , and after to haue that Being ( for want of a true fayth and Religion in his Creatour ) to be punished with eternity of paynes ; I hope then , we lyue not in those Canicular and vnluckly tymes , but that the perswading by fayre and sweete meanes to the true fayth and religion , shal be houlden if not as worthy of Commendacion yet at lest as exempt from blame and dislyke ; and the rather , since Men are not to be forced by lawes to an erroneous fayth only for statesake : Religionis f f Ter●●l . l●b ad Sca 〈…〉 . non est cogere religionem , quae spontè suscipi debeat , non vi .

Touching the second poynt , wherewith my aduersary ( too myld a word , my Enemy ) chargeth me at this present : that is , that I should lye secret in the Vniuersity , and labour by all meanes possible , to plant in the Schollars iudgments such Theorems of doctryne , as might breede disloyalty in their mynds ; It is a most false and calumnious imputation : myselfe being therein as innocent , as Innocency itselfe . I know well , that as on the one side , nothing is more delicate , then is the sense and feeling of an Estate ; so on the other , I am assured , that our Catholicke Religion is so far from approuing disloyalty , as any Profession or Religion can be . For it teacheth with the chiefe Apostle , that we a a 1. Pet. 3. ought to be subiect to the King , as excelling ; It surther instructed vs with the Apostle of the Gentills , That b b Roman . cap 13 we are to be subiect to higher powers , seing there is no power , but of God , that Who c c vbi supra . resisteth the power , resisteth the Ordinance of God ; and they , that resist , purchase to themselfs damnation ; Finally , that we d d Ibidem . ought to be subiect euen of necessity , and for conscience sake ; since e e Ibidem . such a Power beareth not his sword without cause .

Now our Religion teaching all this , why should this Plantife out of his owne speculatiue and suspicious concea●e ( like to a superfluous Comment , which ascrybeth more to the Text , then euer the Authour meaned ) soyle my innocent and cleere intentions with the aspersion of such a foule demeanour ? Therefore my L. since this is only storme , which at this present cheifly showereth vpon my disgrace ; I hope that the radiant beames of Iustice ( through your L. meanes ) will be of force to discipate and dissolue it .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

My Lord these are the accustomed common places of mouths , exhaling forth disloyalty ; I meane , to plead innocency , though neuer so faulty ; and to stuffe their excuse with tragicall phrases , apt to stir vp a vulgar pitty . But if this Man [ my L. ] who hath contaminated himselfe with so many foule breaches of Ciuill Hospitality ( which all men in all Nations most ceremoniously obserue ( may passe vnchastized ; then let vice expect to be rewarded , and vertue punished . But why do I labour so painfully to take the height of this his wicked action ( since it is a kind of errour , ouer precisely to insist in proofe of most euident Truths ) as if doubt were here to be made either of your L. iudgment herein , or of your Iustice ? the one being sufficiently warranted vnto vs , by your long experience in this kind ; the other by your many examples of like Nature . But to turne my words particularly to you , Michaeas . I pray you , why must your stay in our Vniuersity be kept so close and secret , after you gaue it out , you would instantly depart ? Belike you thought , the more retyredly you liued from the eye of vs all , the greater conceate would be had of your presumed Worth ; and so your followers might keepe you , as a treasure reserued to themselues ; you imitating herein Diogenes , who became the more eminent , in regard of his affected obscurity .

MICHAEAS .

O M. Vice-Chancelour . do not thus betrample vpon old age and calamity ; neither lay a further weight of digrace , by your forgeryes vpon him , whom misery and yeares haue almost prostrated euen with the earth . Neither seeke to enlarge my faults with your more greiuous fault . And where you inuest my priuat retyringe in your Vniuersity with a veyle of a desired emminency ; I must replye , that I am as far from all such elation and pryde of mynd , as your selfe is from all charitable censuring of me . For I do acknowledge my selfe to be a meane and de●ected Old Man , and do ascrybe all glory height and honour to hym , who is celsitudo * * Psalm . 137. humilium ; And who being only supreme , doth most delight in those , who are the lowest ; And this deseruedly , since we find by experience , that who are most poore in Spirit , are commonly most rich in the guyfts of the Spirit .

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

M. Vicech : I would haue you to descend to the particular doctrines of disloyalty , broached by Michaeas in your Vniuersity : for as yet both your words haue bene spent only in discoursing and äery generalityes . And they are particulars only , of which the law taketh hould : for since the punishment prescrybed by the Law is particular , it followeth , that the offence must also be particular . Therefore show in such and such a poynt with others particularityes , where Michaeas hath offended against the Soueraignty of Princes .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

My L. I will . You haue di 〈…〉 gled ( Michaeas ) to your sollowers , that the Pope hath full authority to det●one Kings and Princes ( though neuer so absolute ) at his pleasure . And further Papists teach , that the spirituall Iurisdiction residi●g in the Pope , ought to haue that predominancy ouer all temporall authority , which the soule hath ouer the body . To be short , this poynt ( to wit , that your Popis● Religion doth teache rebellion & insurrection of the subiects against their lawfull Prince ) is so cleare , as that we may well say , Papistry and Disloyalty are almost Termini conuertibiles : for though some disloyall Men are not Papists : yet euery Papist ( in that he is a Papist ) is to his soueraigne Protestant Prince , disloyall .

MICHAEAS .

You are glad ( M. Viach . ) to moysten this your drye accusation , in the froath of many idle and splenfull words . Your accusation stands vpon two poynts : First , you charge me in particular for disseminating of disloyalty in your Vniuersity : That being only said , you make in lieu of further proofe thereof a sub●●ll transition to the doctryne of other Catholicks in that poynt : As if what were wanting to the perfecting of my supposed Cryme therein , ought to be made vp , by the accession and application to me of other Catholicke Doctours wrytings of that subiect .

Now to the first I answere . It is a most false Calumny forged in your owne brayne , and wrought vpon the anuile of Mali●e . For produce ( if you can ) the parties , to whom I euer vttered such a Doctrine , the Place or the Tyme , Where or when , such speeches were deliuered . Thus , we see , that this your report ( as being in it selfe most false ) is wholy disuested of all Circumstances , necessarily attending vpon euery humane Action . For euen to re●cyle the secrets of my soule herein : I did in all my discourses with your Scholars purposely auoyde of Sta●e , ( as a seamarke ) all such questions [ of State : ] so vnwilling I euer was , but to touch vpon those dangerous sands . And for the greater demonstration of my Innocency herein , and of my Loyalty to his Maiesty of England , I here acknowledge ( and in this acknowledgement I do for the tyme , depose and put of the person of Michaeas , and speake in my owne person , the Authour of this Treatise ; and in the name of all other Priests and Catholicks of England ) all layalty and fidelity to our most gracious and dread soueraigne King Charles , and to his most illustrious and worthy Queene ; beseeching the Almighty to graunt him a fruitfull bed , and to make him Parent of many noble Children : And further I humbly pray to the Highest , that he may in all tranquillity and true happynes raigne ouer vs many yeres ; and after his dissolution of Body , that he may equall in euerlasting Be atitude the greatest Sainct of his Predecessours now in Heauen . This is my Protestation made in all sincerity , and in which by Gods grace euen to my last gaspe . I intend to continue and perseuer .

But now to resume my former shape of Michaeas . Touching the first point of my accusation ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) you see how cleere and innocent I am . I will now hasten to the second branch , contayning ( as you say ) the doctrine of Disloyalty , taught euen by all the Doctours of the Roman Church . First I answere , It is a most iniust slander obtruded vpon them by you ; since not any one Catholicke Doctour teacheth , nor aone good lay Catholicke beleiueth , that the Pope can at his ny pleasure depose Princes , and transferre Kingdomes and states , as to him best liketh . Secondly , I reply , that seeing you neuer cease to vpbraid our Catholicke Religion , with the foule stayne of disloyalty ( this being your , & other Protestants common Theame , wherein you so much ryout in malignant exagerations ) Therefore as awakened by your so often ingeminated accusation herein , I do auouch ( pardon me most Reuerend Iudge , if being thus prouoked , I enter into a Subiect , perhapps vngratefull to you ) that the Protestants do by infinit degrees , stand more reprehensible in this poynt of disloyalty and disobedience towards their Prince , then we Catholicks do . And this I will prooue , if I may be suffered , at this present against you [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] first from the positions and speculatiue assertions of the most learned Protestants ; and after , from the actuall insurrections and rebellions of Protestants , against their lawfull Princes .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

This is the Scene [ Michaeas ] of men of your disposition , that when you are truly charged with your owne faults , then in place of better answere , you insimulate ( by way of recrimination ) your Aduersaryes within the same faults . But it seemes by you , that dotage is the accustomed Attendant of old age ; or that you take a delight and complacency to haue the subiect of disloyalty often in your mouth , as you euer haue it in your hart . But begin at your pleasure to charge vs Protestants ( if you can ) either with the doctrine or practize of disloyalty . My Lord-Iudge ( I know ) will giue you leaue , who in the end shall perceaue , that all what you can imagine in this point , is but meete imagination , and no reall Truth ; And so in your discours , you will resemble that Man , who dreames , he doth but dreame .

MICHAEAS .

O wound not [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] my reputation with these Philippicks and declamatory Inuectiues ; so much hurtfull euen to the speaker : for , * * Tertul quomodo placabit Patrem , iratus in fratrem ? And rest satisfyed , that I do not solace myselfe ( as you suggest ) in this vnpleasing Text : but do acquaint my selfe with discourses of that subiect , with the like intention , that the morall Philosopher doth busy himselfe with the nature of Vice ; which is , the better to auoid Vice .

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

Michaeas . I must needs now say , that you do infinitly wrong our Religion , by ascrybing both to the chiefe Doctours and Professours of it , this odious Cryme of Disloyalty and Rebellion . No , no. Our Gospell which cometh from God , best teacheth our duty towards the Lieutenants of God . I presume , that herein you rest but vpon the bare and naked speeches of others of your owne Religion , our designed enemyes : But you must remember , that as things , which are seene by reflexion , are imperfectly seene ; so reports and bruits taken only at the rebound of partiall mens mouths , deserue but a light eare .

But seeing it is the part of a Iudge , to heare all sides with an indifferent eare ; you may [ Michaeas ] at your pleasure begin your discours of this your assumed Argument , where I doubt not , but M. Vice Chancelour will sufficiently repell all your reasons , and answere to your examples , to the greater Honour of our Religion ; which is a free from all stayne and blot of disloyalty , as an intemerate virgin is free from any defyled touch . Therefore , Proceede .

MICHAEAS .

My L. I will ; And I must entreate your Patience herein , as desirous to abstayne from geuing the lest iust offence to your L. And touching this subiect , I dowbt litle , but that ( howsoeuer you are as yet perswaded ) after I haue finished my Discours , your morning and more retyred thoughts will ( at lest in the secrets of your owne Iudgment ) geue an other censure hereof . And I will begin in deliuering the Positions & doctrines , which the most accomplished Protestants for literature , haue left of this Argument in their Bookes and wrytings .

And first do we not find Luther euen to denye all secular principality , as most vnlawful now in these Christian dayes ? For thus he wryteth : Among a a Luth. de secular . potest . in tom . 9. German . Christian Men none is superiour , saue one , and only Christ . As also more fully : Among b b Luth. vbi supra . Christians , no man can or ought to be a Magistrate ; but eich one is to other equally subiect . And further in contempt of all Magistrats touching matters of Religion , he thus discourseth : As Christ c c Luth. sermons englished & printed 1579. p. 97. & tom . Witenberg . f. 327. cannot suffer hymselfe to be tyed and bound by Lawes &c. So ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them . And more : Yf the d d Luth. Sermons vt supra . p. 261. Ciuil Magistrate should contend , that his Commandements be necessary to saluation ; then as it is said of the Traditions of the Papists , the contrary is to be donne . Thus we find , that Luther is not affraid , not only to impugne all Magistracy and domination in certaine cases ; but he is also not ashamed , to dogmatize and teach in his wrytings , that there neither are nor ought to be any true souerainty or Princes at all , now in the dayes of Christ . To which Princes partly their Eminency graced with Pompe and state ; but chiefly an innate & imbred Obedience to Power and Maiesty ( God and Nature making that now good , which law of man did first ordayne ) induce men to exhibit all due reuerence and veneration : In compare of whom , euen the greatest subiects are to seeme but priuate & obscure ; like the brightest starrs , which are darkened in the presence of a fayrer light .

VICE CHANCELOVR .

Touching Luther [ Michaeas ] you must know , that although we acknowledge him , to haue been a great instrument of God , for the reuealing in these later tymes the Gospell of Christ ; yet we grant , that in some points he varyed from the Truth ; and particularly in denying all Magistracy and Principality . But all other cheife Professours of our Religion concurrently teach with vs the lawfulnes of Princes , and all due Obedience vnto them .

MICHAEAS .

M. Vice-Chancelour If Luther by your owne acknowledgment , did erre in this point , how then can you rest assured , that he did not erre in other points of fayth , first by him broached , and after entertayned by you : Since he had no better warrant for teaching the truth in the one , then in the other ; and it is certayne , that a manifest errour but in one point , carryeth with it a possibility of erring in any other point . But to come to your answere . I say the contrary thereto will presently appeare . For is it not euident , that Swinglius ( a man of extraordinary note among you ) thus teacheth ? Quando e e Tom. 1. in explanat . Art. 42. perfide & extra regulam Christi egerint Principes , possunt depon● : When Princes do euill , and contrary to the rule of Christ , they may be deposed . Thus Swinglius ; who there warranteth this his doctrine from the example of Saule , whom God deposed ; although afore he designed him , King . Yea Swinglius thus further proceedeth : Due f f Swingl . in l. epist. Oecolam . & Swingl . l. 4. epist. Cunhardo Somio &c. Promittendum est Caesart officium , si modo fidē●obis per 〈◊〉 ▪ illibatam . reuerence it to be promised to Caesar , if so be permitteth to vs our Religion inuiolable : Thus intimating , that if the Prince doth not permit Religion , then no honour is to be giuen , but resistance is to be made . Swinglius furthermore continueth his former discours in these very words Romanum g g Swin 〈…〉 ●b●●upra . Imperium , ●m● qu●du●s aliud Imperium , vbi religionem sinceram opprimere caperit &c. If the Roman Emperour , or any other Prince or Soueraigne shall beginne to oppresse the sincere Religion , & nos illud negligentes patim● &c. And we negligently suffer the same . We shall stand charged with contempt thereof , as much as euen the opp●essours themselues : An assertion so much displeasing to other more sober and quyet Protestants , that D. Bilson doth rest much dist●sted with those words of Swinglius ; saying in lieu , of further answere to them : As I muse h h In his true d 〈…〉 rence pa●t 3. pag. 273. at Swi●glius his words ; so I like not his iudgment .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Mich 〈…〉 . You know well , that Swinglius and Luther liued both in one tyme togeather : I meane , then , when though many Articles of the 〈◊〉 were by them discouered ; yet all were not discouered ; but happ●ly they might mantayne some errours ; The Sunne of Christs Gospell not as then arriuing to it Meridian and full ascent . And indeed it is a kind of imperfection and ( as I may tearme it ) a signe of an ouer rigid nature , to expect in the w●yters of those firster tymes , no imperfection at all . But now in these more late and refyned dayes , the Professours of the Gospell haue wholy exploded the former doctrine of Luther and Swinglius herein . For what Men do more aduance & defend the dignity and soueraignty of Princes , then we do in our Sermons , and other our priuat Conferences ?

MICHAEAS .

If you do so much magnify in your Pulpitts ( as you say , you do ) the regallity of Princes , it is to the end , that in the close ( I speake only but of some of you ) you may the better vndermyne them all : like the earth , which for the tyme nurrisheth all Creatures , yet finally deuoureth all Creatures . But because you reply , that the Professours comming after Luther and Swinglius , cannot be blemished in their wrytings , with any spot of disloyalty ; Therefore to follow you in your owne method therein , I will come by degrees from Luther and Swinglius euen to these our dayes ; and so descending in tymes , I will ascend in weight and force of Argument .

And now to come to Caluin , who next in tyme succeeded Swiglius , and towards whom most of you Protestants do commit a Kynd of Idolatry . It is ouer euident , that Caluin thus wryteth of Princes and their authority : Earthly i i Caluin in Daniel . c. 6. Abdica●t s● pot●●ta●e ●err●●i Principes , du●●ns●rg●nt con●r● Deum ; ●mo i●digni sun● , qui ces●antur in num 〈…〉 h●m●num : P●tius ergo conspuere oportet in illorum capita , quam illis parere . Princes do depr 〈…〉 themselfs of authority , when they erect themselfs against God , yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of Men : and we are rather to spit vpon their f●ces , then to obey them . Thus we se , that Caluin teacheth that , Princes commanding thi●gs vnlawfull , do vtterly depryue themselfs of all authority and regality , where with a fore they were inu●sted . With which former Words of Caluin D. Wilks ( no vulgar Protestant ) doth vppraid the Puritans in this sort : They k k In his obedience or Ecclesiasticall Vnion . pag. 60. were your teachers , who account those Princes ( who are not resined by their spirit ) vnworthy to be accounted among the number of Men ; and therefore rather to be spitted vpon , then obeyed : They were your teachers , who defend Rebellion against Princes of a different Religion Thus D. Wilk● .

To come next to Beza . He was so full and intemperate in ouerthrowing the authority of Princes ; as that he did purposely wryte a booke of this very Subiect , styling it : De 〈◊〉 Magistratuum in sub●●tos : a booke much dislyked by D. Bancroft ( the late Arch Bishop l l in his Suruey of the pretended discipline . pag. 48 As also in the booke entituled : Dangerous Positions . of Canterbury ) and D. Succl●ffe : Which Doctour t●us censureth thereof : Beza m m D. Succleffe in his answere to a certayne 〈…〉 applicatory pag. 75. in his booke of the power of Magistrats , doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases &c. And further : Beza (m) roundly teacheth , what reason haue Christians to obey hym , that is Satans sl●ue . And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza , he saith : a booke , n n D. Succleffe vbi supra , pag. 98. which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats . To contract this poynt touchinge Beza . Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his : P●rplace● p p In his epist. theolog . epist. 68. mihi &c. It pleaseth me very much , that you wryte , that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe , in the said epistle : Si pijs semper expectandum putas , dum lupi vltro cedant &c. Yf you thinke , we must stay the delayes of godly men , till the woul●es do freely depart , or are driuen away by publyke authority : I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein &c. And if we had made such delayes , What Churches should wee haue had at this day ? Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt : concerning both which in generall , I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft , passed vpon them both , who thus wryteth : He that q q In his Suruey of pretended discipline . pag. 42. shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles &c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand , into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war , of peace , of subiection , of reformation , without staying for the Magistrate . Thus he .

Next we will come to k●ox , who thus teacheth : Reformation r r Knox to the Communalty f. 49. & 50. of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty . s s Knox histor. pag. 343. God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes , t t Knox hist. p. 371. Princes for iust cause may be deposed . Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words : u u Knox to En●land & Scotland . fol. 76. Yf Princes be tyra●ts against God and his Truth , their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence . Of all which passages of Kno●see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions . Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein : for thus he teacheth : The x x Bucanan . l. de iure regni pag. 13. People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with ●at more debasing spyte he thus egurgi●ates his ve●ome : It y y Bucanan vbi supra . p. 40. were good , that rewards were appointed by the People for such , 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants , as commonly there is for those , which haue killed vulues . Finally Bucanan affirmeth , that People z z Bucanan vbi supra pag. 62. may arraigne their Prince . Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan , I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester ; who in his Sermon a a Preached the 〈◊〉 . of No 〈…〉ber & printed . ●606 . at Pooles Church , termeth these two men : The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Michaeas . Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers ; yet no part thereof conce●neth the Church of England , or it Members : Our Church remayning most incontaminate , f●ee , and spotles from the l●ast tuch of disloyalty . And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid , concerneth vs litle ; you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs , who wholy disclayme from the same .

MICHAEAS .

M. Vice-Chancelour : Pardon me , if I heere do say , you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance . For first , are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther , Sw●nglius , Caluin , Beza , and the others aboue mentioned ? If you be not , then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late , different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being . If you be of the same fayth , must you not then confesse , that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince ? Secondly , it is ouer manifest , that the Church of England ( I speake of some members thereof only , & not of all ) doth stand most chargeable with the same crime . In proofe of which point , I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury , D. Bancroft ; who in one of his Books , thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point , saying : I omit b b In h 〈…〉 Suruey of the pretended holy discipline pag. 48. their desperate courses of deposing Princes , and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation : The generall summe was this : That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it ; the Ministers , the inferiour Magistrate , the People &c. might set it o● foo●e themselues . Of these , and such like arguments diuers bookes ( he meaning , made by English protestants ) were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua , to be there then printed in English , and to be published in England &c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books , speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme , thus writeth : Goodman , c c D. Bancroft in his dangerous Positions pag. 34. Whitingam , Gilby , the authour of the booke of Obedience , with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes , urged all states by degrees , rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues ; then to suffer such Idolatry & Superstition remayne in the Land . But to descend more particularly to this Goodman . He was a forward Protestan● in Queene Maryes tyme , & did write a booke of this very subiect , as D. Bancroft d d In his dangerous positions . p. 35. and D. Succliffe e e In his answere to a certaine libel supplicatory . p 192. affirme . Thus hereof he wryteth ( as D. Bancroft f f D. Bancroft vbi supra pag. 35. alleadgeth his sentences ) If g g Goodman in his said Booke p. 119. 139. Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes , and comman● others to do the like , then haue they lo●● honour and obedience , and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats ; but to be examined , accused , condemned &c. And more : h h Goodman p. 63. & 43. It is not sufficient for subiects not to ob●y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes , but to withstand them also . And yet more plainly : Euill i i Goodman pag. 144. & 145. Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed . To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect , there was also in the said times an other Booke , made against the authority of Princes and entituled : Of Obedience . Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft k k In his dangerous Positions pag. 35. 36. and D. Succliffe , l l In his answere to a libel supplicatorie . pag. 71. in which booke we thus read : Kings m m In the booke of Obedienc . pag. 25. haue their authority from the People , and by occasion the People may take it away agayne . And more : By n n Obedience . pag. 110. the word of God , in a manifest defection ( meaning of fayth and Religion ) a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant . Marke you not , how he doth Rauiliac it ? And finally : It o o Obedience pag. 99. & 103. is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants . But I will wade no further in this argument . For I much feare , that the afore vnheard , and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge . Only I must note , that among the aboue mentioned Protestants , some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes ; others with a●● contempt and disgrace ; yet all of them alledged do with one & the same eye or countenance , indifferently looke vpon this principle ; to wit : That Princes in some cases may be deposed : such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion : So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces , we obserue great disproportion , in one and the same proportion .

LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE .

Michaeas . I must confesse , that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants , touching the deposing of Princes are most strange , and indeede , distastfull vnto me . But it well may be , that either the places by your in●ertions and additions are corrupted ; or that you haue violated them by diuorcing the words from their true intended Sense : Which sense of their ( no doubt ) is different from that meaning and Construction , which you haue imposed vpon them . But to confes my ignorance , I haue not at any ty 〈…〉 r●d the former Authours ; And therefore I must refer this poynt ( for my fuller satisfaction ) to the iudgment of M. Vice Chancelour , here present .

MICHAEAS .

I do assure your 〈◊〉 . in all sincerity , that the testymonyes of the former Protesta●ts are truly aledged ; without any s 〈…〉〈…〉 ertion either of the Words or sense : And hearein I appeale euen to M. Vice-Chancelour owne iudgment ; who if he can change me with any such willfull imposture but in any one of the passages aboue , I will acknowledge my selfe guilty in all . Besydes , all the former Authours are long since departed out of this World ; and therefore my fault ( if any such were ) should be far more odious and insupportable ; since Christian Charity teacheth vs , to treade gently vpon the graues of the deade .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Suppose ( Michaeas ) that we should grant , that all the former Protestants did teach , as you haue produced them ; for to speak the truth , I cannot take any iust exception against your allegations ; and the lesse , seeing I find some of our owne Brethren by you alledged ( and particularly D. Bancroft and D. Succlif ) to acknowledge with discontent their said sentences . Yet seeing they were but certaine Metaphysicall and aery speculations only of Schollars ; men vnapt for a mes and Rebellions , and not of any acting spirits : Their doctrinall Comminations therefore ( as neuer being accompanied with any externall Acts of disloyalty ) are to be reputed the lesse dangerous to Princes and Magistrats . And thus in regard hereof , it may be truly said , that the errour of those former Protestants hearein was but small , though the poynt , about the which they erred , was great . But the Case is far otherwyse with you Papists , who do not only teach and warrant rebellion by your doctrine ; but also haue actually practized the same with greate effusion of innocent bloud , to the amazement of all Christendom , and irreparable dishonour of your owne Religion .

MICHEAS .

I will here speake with the Poët ( M. Vice Ch. ) mutatio nomine , de te fabula narratur : Since these your words do ●ustly recoyle vpon your selfe , and your Religion . And therefore euen to choake you irreplyably hearein , I will present to your view , the tragicall & deplorable face of many stats and Countryes in Christendom , ingendred from the former Protestants Principles ; In the contemplation whereof we shall find it a Mistery , euer peculiar to diuers Protestant stats , to cast of their loyalty and obedience ; that so either by one meanes or other they would either fynd right , or make right , to violate the bond of all souerainty ( as men speake of Hercules breaking Gorgons knot ) with whom it hath beene vsuall , to grow wanton in shading of bloud , for the more speedy establishment of their Gospell to the end then , that these former doctrinal Theorems of Rebellion shall not become meare aery ( as it pleseth you , M. Vice-Ch . to tearme them ) I will truly and really incorporate them in diuers most lamentable Insurrections and outrages , perpetracted by Protestant subiects against their Catholicke Princes . Many of which Rebellions did receaue their first Conception ( and after their byrth ) euen from the violent incitements and instigations made by diuers of the afore alledged Protestants : Wryters , in the mynds of the subiects against their Catholicke Leige Lords . And in showing this , I will first begine with England , then Scotland , and so I will passe to other more remote Countryes .

Now touching England . Do wee not find , that the aforenamed L. Archbishop D. Bancroft , speaking of the attempts made in Q. Maryes tyme for aduancing of the Protestants Religion , thus wryteth ? Sundry Englishmen did wryte hither ( meaning (p) In his dangerous positions . pag. 34. from Geneua ) sundry letters and books of this subiect ; That the Councellours of Q. Maries tyme , Noblemen , Inferiour Magistrats , and ( rather then fayle ) the very People were bound before God , to ouerthrowe superstition and reforme Religion , whether Q Mary would or no ; yea Though it were by putting her to death . And according herto we thus reade in the former booke of Obedience : By Gods law and Mans lawe , Q. Mary ought to (q) The Booke of obedience pag. 99. & 103. be put to death ; as being a Tyrant , a Monster , and a cruell beast . O poore and titulary soueraignty , that is forced in these mens iudgments to be thus subiect to it owne subiects , and to endure those opprobrious and contumelious tearmes from any one obscure Superintendent , which ciuill Conuersation forbiddeth amonge Men of the meanest ranke and quality . No , supreme domination and rule , whearewith Princes are inuested , is lyke to hym , from whom it selfe originally first streameth ; that is , Absolute and independent ; and brooketh not the controule of any such , whom God hath subiugated to it by lawfull subiection . But to proceede : from these former , and other such elements and Principles of Treason , it came to passe , that one Wiltin Thomas m m See hereof Holinshed Chron. the last edition volum. 3. pag. 1104. with others , conspyred to murther Q , Mary ; for which offence he was hanged , drawne , and quartered : that D. Crammer n n Act Mon. printed 1596. pag. 1282 and Holinshed ●reat Chronicle volum. 3. pag. 10●3 . ( Archbishop of Canterbury ) partly for spreading seditious Books , and cheifly vnder pretext of Religion for ayding the D. of Northumberland with horse and Men , was sent to the Tower , arraigned in the starrchamber , & attaynted of High Treason : Finally , that S. Thomas Wyat , ( seconded with the D. of Suffoch ) attempted his treason against Stow in his A●nals pag. 1046. the said Q Mary , only vnder the colour of erecting Protestancy . But to leaue England , and to come to Scotland : Who is ignorant , that Knox p p H●l●n 〈…〉 d great Chronicle in the history of Scotland , the last edition . p. 366. being instructed in this Art at Geneua , returned into Scotland , attempting to reforme Religion euen by open rebellion , and force of armes ; and murthering the Cardinall in his bedchamber at S. Andrewes , was conuented to appeare before the Queene Regent , and for not appearing was proclaymed Rebell ? In like sort , D. Bancroft thus further wryteth of Knox and his Confederats and followers : They p p In his dangerous positions . p. 1● . kept the field two months , and tooke away to themselues the coyning irons , and iustifyed the same &c. They gaue the Queene the lye diuers tymes , and vsed her with most despi●full speeches , and re●ounced their obedience vnto her ; and depryued her of all further regiment by formall Act , penned by Kno● .

The said D. Bancroft thus further enlargeth himselfe , touching Knox and hi , followers , saying : By q q D. Bancroft vbi supra . the perswasion of Knox in his Sermon , they did cast downe and destroy ●t S. Andrews both the houses of the Eryars , and the Abbeys in that towne : So deal● they with the Abbey of Scone , the Fryars at Ste●cling , & Lu●quo , and Edenburrough ; the Queene being fled thence for feare .

Thus D. Bancroft of these mens proceedings ; who not content in afflicting the said Queene , in such rebellious a manner , further extended their malice and Disloyalty in so high a degree , to the last Queene of Scotland ; as that his deceased Maiesty ( her Sonne ) thus complayned thereof : r r King Iames in the summe or the con 〈…〉 nce at Hampton Court . printed 1604. p 81. How they vsed ( speakind of Knox and his Confederats ) that poore Lady my Mother , is not vnknowne , and with greife I may remember it .

Touching Ge●enna , Goneu● , I would say ( but the mistaking is not great , since what the one teacheth , the other punisheth ) We find that D. 〈…〉 l●ste thus truly writeth : s s In his answere to a certaine 〈…〉〈…〉 p. 149. They of eneua did depose their Liegt Lord ( who was Catholicke ) & Prince from his temporall right ; albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lord and owner of that Citty and Territorie . Which whom conspireth D. Bancroft thus wryting hereof : The t t in his Suruey of the pretended holy discipline pag. 11. Citizens of Geneua receauing some good encour agement ( meaning from Caluin and such others ) I doubt not , tooke vpon them the endeauouring of altering Religion : and omitted not the occasion offered of changing also the Estate of the Commonwealth .

In this next place , the 〈…〉 ow Countryes affoard a greater euidency and demonstration of this point . For O●iander ( a most eminent Protestant ) thus woundeth his owne Professours : The Low u u In epitom . cent. 16. p. 941. Countreyes by publike wryting renounced all obedience and subiection to Philip , their Lord and King &c. When x x Osiand . vbi supra . pag. 801. foure hundred of them , ( men of good ranke ) had sued for tolleration in religion , and did not preuayle , the impatient People stirred In defens . tract . de diuers . gradib . minis●tor . c. 2. p. 74. vp with fury at Antwerp and other places of Holland , Z●land , and Pladders , threw and broake downe images &c. The ʸ subiects of those Countreyes tooke armes against the Magistrate , and made the Prince of Orange their Gouernour : A truth in like sort confessed by D. Sarauia in these words : They of the Low Countryes did ouerthrow and spoyle temples and monasteryes with Monks , Bishops , and the whole popish Cleargy , against the mind of the cheife Magistrate , and prom●se giuen .

Finally Crispinus a a Of the state of the Church p. 627. ( the Protestant ) and the foresaid Osiander b b Cent. 16. p. 959. do relate , that one Petrus Dathenus and other cheife Protestants of Gau●t , did stir vp in the yere . 1587. the Ci●tizens to cast all the Masse Priests ( as they speake ) and Monks out of the Citty , and to place their goods in the Treasury .

Next let vs come to France . What ciuill Warrs haue beene raized by the Protestants , during the space of forty yeares togeather , till the last King Henry the fourth made himselfe Catholicke , only for their Religion , against their Catholicke Kings and Princes ? Many historyes are become the subiect thereof ; only I will content my selfe with discerning some few testimonyes and confessions of the Protestants heerein . And first may occu●re the battayle of Dreux wherat c c As Antony fayus witnesseth ( being a Protestant ) in vita & obitu Bezae . p 45. Beza himselfe was present ; vndertaken only for the aduancement of the Protestant Religion and of which Battayle Beza thus writeth : The Nobility d d Beza in his epistle dedicatory of his new Testament , to the Queen of En●land printed 1564. of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy , layd the foundation of the restoring true Religion in France , by consecrating most happily their bloud to God , in the battayle of Dreux . In like sort , we thus reede in a Protestant booke , entituled : The generall Inuentory of the History of France ; and translated into English by Ed. Grimston : The e e Printed 1607. pag. 593. Protestants of Meaux transported with indiscreete zeale , grounded vpon their numbers , did fly to the Churches , beate downe images , and make the Priests retyre . And againe : Beza f f vbi supra pag. 610. preaching at Grenoble , Charters , and Orleans with his sword and pistoll in his hand , exhorted the people to show their manhood , rather in killing the Papists , then in breaking Images . And yet more : The g g vbi supra p. 623. Protestants ( to wit anno . 1567. ) being first armed , were in the beginning maysters of the field &c. The King being incensed agaynst them , was at Me●ux , and preparing to celebrate the feast of S. Michael , the Prince of Condy approaching with fiue hundred horse , by this attempt forced the King to retyre , with some amazement to Paris . And yet further : The Prince of Condy and the vbi supra , pag. 610. 625. &c. Admirall kept S. Denis , S. Owen , and Auberuilliers to curbe Paris . The Constable ( the Kings Lieutenant ) gathered an Army , whereupon bartayle e●sued &c. Which Authour of the aforementioned Inuentory of France , relateth many more occurrents of those matters , which here for breuity are omitted .

But to proceede further touching the Country of France . Osiander ( the foresaid Protestant ) recordeth this matter in these words : The i i Cent. 16. pag. 698. Protestants vnder colour of exhibiting a Confession of their fayth , came armed to the Kings palace &c. That k k Osiander vbi supra . p. 804. ciuill warre , for Religion was renewed ; the Prince of Condy being Generall of those of the reformed Churches ; and the Constable , Generall of the Kings Army . That the Constable l l vbi supra . being slayne in these warres , the Kings Brother supplyed his place . To conclude this point of the Prince of Condy his rebellion herein ; It is so euident & vndeniable , that Crispinus ( a Protestant ) thus writeth hereof : After m m Of the state of the Church pag. 625. many messages ( though in vayne ) sent by the King to the protestant Princes , the warre beganne againe . For the Prince of Condy rose vp in armes , and swore not to leaue them , vnder whose protestation this sentence was placed : Deo & victricibus armis .

This lamentable subiect of Protestant Subiects rysing against their Catholicke Princes , hath busied my tongue very long : Therefore I passe ouer , how in Basil , ( a cheife Citty in Heluetia ) a great dissention did ryse betweene the Burg●sses & certaine of the Senatours , for cause of Religion only ( as Crispinus n n Of the state of the Church p. 509. relateth . ) And how the Burgesses hauing taken armes , forced the others to agree , to what they demanded ; and thereupon they did cast downe Images ; and how twelue Senatours fauoring our Catholicke Religion , were cast out of the Senate ; and how the Masse was first by these meanes abandoned , throughout all that S●gnory .

Also , I pretermit the dolefull passages of this nature , practized in Swe●eland , of which Country Cythreus ( a Protestant ) thus relateth : o o Cythreus in Chronico anno 1593 & 1594. p. 75. & 71. Sigismond being King of Sweueland by hereditary succession , was constrayned to giue his assent , that none should beare office in that Kingdome , but such only ( meaning Protestants ) as retayned the Confession of Augusta . He further saith thus . They forced the King to content himselfe with exercise of his ( Catholicke ) Religion in his owne Chappell . A truth so well knowne & confessed , that Osiander thus speaketh of it in generall tearmes : The Protestants p p Osiander cent. 16. p. 1115. of Sweueland did decree , that the exercise of Popish Religion , should be banished out of all parts of that Kingdome &c.

Finally , I passe ouer with a gentill ●uche , what the Kingdome of Palonia , hath suffered in this kynd ; of which poynt the foresaide Protestant Osiander thus writeth : Certaine q q Cent. 16 p. 115. of Polonia did ( out of an vntymely zeale ) expell their Priests , with great violence and sedition : without expecting permission ( as the said Authour r r Cent. 16. p. 653. confesseth ) of the Kinge

Thus far ( most worthy Iudge ) I haue proceeded ( contrary to the byas of myne owne naturall disposition ) in relation of these lamentable I lyads , as I may tearme them but I am to be pardoned ; since the vpbrading importunity of M. Vice-Chancelour , did compell me thearto : from which former Examples we may gather , that for diuers yeres past , most Nations of Christendome haue become the sable and mournfulle Theaters or stages , whereupon so many blouddy Tragedyes haue bene acted ; or rather the very shambles , whearein haue bene shaughtered so many thousand Christians ; and all this warranted , vnder the pretext of introducing the Protestant fayth and Religion . And for the more iustifying of theese so wicked perpetrations , we find diuers most eminent Protestants euen with greate laudes and applauses to celebrate these their attempts . To forbeare the Encomion aboue recited , giuen by Beza to the Protestant Nobility of Fran●e , who were slayne at the batayle of Dreuz ; do we not find , when euen an inundation of bloud ( shed through the insurrection and Rebellion of Protestants ) had ouerflowed most parts of Germany , that Luther thus honoreth in words the same ? Vide or s s Luther . loc. com . class 4. c. 30. fol. 55. mihi videre Germaniam in sanguine natare &c. Christus meus viuit & regnat ; ego vino & regnabo . It sermes , that Germany euen swims with bloud : But Christ liueth and reigneth ; and I will lyue and reigne . As also he thus further triumphet heareof : Thou complainest , t t Luther . loc. com . class 5. p. 57. that by the Gospell the world is become tumultuous ; I a sweare , God he thanked : These things I would haue to bee ; and woe me miserable Man , if such things were not . In lyke sort doth not Caluin magnify the former seditions attempts of knox in this maner ? Knox u u Galuin in epist. ●d Knox epist. 305. pag. 566. valiantly bestoweth his labour vpon Christ and his Church . O poore weake blast of wynd ( since iniust praise is no better ) thus idly spent in commending that , which deserueth all discommendation and reproach : for I much feare , that these Men , thus extolled for such their rebellions combustions and assacinacyes , are interested in that sentence of Sainct Austin : La 〈…〉 vbi non sunt ; torquentur vbi sunt .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Michaeas . You haue heare entred into a wyde and wyld excursion of Discourses . But I hould them not altogether pertinenm : since all your former Instances were vndertaken , for depression of superstition and aduancement of the Gospell of Christ . The weight whereof is to ouerballance all humane respects . And how far a Man may proceede hearein , I will not determyne : Only I hope , I may without offence say , that in matters so me●rely touching the endangering of our Gospell , and for the better beating downe of Antichrist , it is a kynd of Passion to be insensible and voyde of Passion . But you should ( Michaeas ) haue brought some examples of Protestants disloyalty , and want of duty against their Protestant Prince , if so you had thought to haue wounded our cause indeed : But since you haue not , nor cannot insist in any such , your former Instances wee repute ( supposing them to be true ) for lesse materiall and conuincing .

MICHAEAS .

M. Vice-Chancelour . If it did comport with my present afflicted state , or with my due reuerence to this Seate of Iustice I could well smyle to see , how you still giue ground more and more , in euery of your answeares , against our former authorities and examples , for whereas the mayne Question heare is , Whether the Protestant Religion doth teach any disloyalty to the Prince , of what Christian Religion so euer he be ? And whether the Professours of Protestancy do truly stand chargeable , with such their Disloyalty for matter of Religion ? you now haue heare vsed diuers inflexions and turnings to wynd your selfe out of this Labyrinth . For first , when Luther and Swinglins were produced out of their owne wrytings to that end ; You answeare , that indeede they were iustly charged thearewith ; but neuertheles the tymes after them , being more refined and purged from all errours , were most free from all such imputations . When to impugne this reply , I did vrge , that Caluin , Beza , Knox , Bucanan and diuers others of these dayes , did in their book & wrytings most confidently defend the same doctrine of Rebellion and disloyalty for defence of Religion : Your next sleight was ( crossing your former answeared ) to say , that though theese later Men did teach the sayd doctryne ; Yet seing this was but only the speculation of some Protestant Schollars ; but neuer put in practize by any of them , or their followers ; that therefore their errour was herein the lesse dangerous and more pardonable . When to confront this your silly euasion , some of the said particuler Protestant wryters , and many thousands of other Protestants are vrged ( by their open rebellions and insurrections ) actually to haue practized the said speculatiue doctryne of disloyalty : You then lastly replyed , that all this was vndertaken by them , for the defence of the Ghospell , and depressing of superstition and Idolatry : Which you say , may perhaps desearue hearein a myld censure . And further , you affirme , that you hould the Protestants lesse chargeable with any iust fault hearein , because they are euer loyall to their Protestant Princes , for any attempts touching religion ; though not euer loyall to their Princes of a different religion from them . But how rouing and wandring are all these Replyes from the Question heare ventilated ? Which was , Whether Protestants did teach or put in practize Rebellion and insurrection against their lawfull Princes , of what Christian Religion soeuer they were ?

But M. Vice-Chancelour . I do heare pardon you . For either you must haue openly confessed in the first entrance of this passage , that the Protestants do stand obnoxious , for teaching and practizing of disloyalty , &c. Against their true Kings and soueraigns ( which , perhaps , you were loath to doe ) Or otherwyse , as being depriued of all better . Yf any learned Protestant , thinke , I do wrong his party , by feigningly imposing these euasions vpon the Vice-Chancelour ; then let that Man set downe such his other owne replyes , as he may thinke more satisfying to all the former obiected authorityes and examples , and he shal be answeared . For I cannot presage , what heare could by sayd by any Protestant , but either to vse these sleights , or otherwyse plainly at the first acknowledge the Protestants doctrine hearein . Answeares , you must haue bene forced ( thereby to wine a little tyme ) to haue vsed your former declynings and subterfugious tergiaersations . But belyke you did at the first call to mind , that the least degree of weaknes in a Cause , wheare nothing but weaknes is , is to be reputed , as a kynd of strenght ; and that little sconces are fore the present good fortresses ; when Castells , Rompyers , and such other strong forts are Wanting .

But M. Vice-Ch . To trace you in the steps of your last refuge . I do heare auonch , that Protestants euen to their Protestant Princes , only for matter of Religion ( contrary to this your last assertion ) haue manifested great disloyalty : Thus is your Gospel set against your Gospell ; I will not say with Esay , * * Esay . 19. the Aegiptians against the Aegiptians . And here I passe ouer ( for greater breuity ) the examples of this Kynd , acted in Scotland x x See hereof D. Succlif in his answere to a certaine libell supplicatory pag. 80. & H●●inshed in the history of Scotland the last edition p. 433. and Germany , y y Osia●der epiton . cent. 16 p. 735. euen by Protestants against their Protestant Princes ; and will a whyle rest in the ouertures and intendments at least , heare in England . And according heareto we fynd D. Bancroft thus to wryte of the proceeding of the Puritans , against their Protestant Bishops : The z z In his dangerous positions . pag. 74. Puritans meete and co ferre concerning the proceedings of the Ministers , without assistance or staying for the Magistrate . And further , talking of Penry and other Puritans , he thus accuseth them : They a a D. Bancroft vbi supra . pag. 137. would make men to beleiue , that they had for the tymes , and within their limits , an absolute authority , as if themselfs were Princes . In lyke sort , this Doctour reciteth Martin Sein●r , making mention of a hundred b b vbi supra . thousand hands ; and what a stroake so many would stryke together ; and that ( Martin affirming ) their suyte should not be reiected ; especially in such a tyme , whearein we now lyue in danger of our enemyes abroad , and therefore had need of no causes of discoradgment at home . Thus D. Bancroft cyteth the words of Martin Marprelet ; and then he giueth his sentence & iudgment of this their Menage , and tearmeth it thus : A speech , at least seditions .

This Doctour also further discoureth the threats of the Puritans against the Magistrate , and he alledgeth one of their comminations thus in their owne words : We haue c c D. Bancroft vbi supra pag. 140. sought to aduance this cause of God by humble suyte to the Parlament , by wryting &c. seing none of these meanes vsed by vs haue preuayled , if it come by that meanes , which will make all your harts to ake ; blame yourselfs . Finally not to stay long hearein D. Succlif thus speaketh of Martin Marprelate : Martin wisheth , that the Parlament (d) In his answere to a certaine libell supplicato . pag. 76. would bring in the Eldership ( notwithstanding her Maiestyes resisting of it ) vz by a rebellion . They bragged of a hundred thousand hands , and in playne ●●armes , talked of Massacring their Aduersaries . Thus D. Succlif , with whome I will heare end .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Though I cannot deny ( Michaeas ) the former attempts of the Protestants ; Yet since not only the Papists Doctrine , but also the mainfold traiterous desigments and reall practizes of them against their Protestant Prin●es , are no lesse tragicall , then the former related by you are ; I do not see , but that granting the Protestants to be faulty in defect of Loyalty , you Papists may in a far more high degree be iustly insimulated within the said Cryme . Good God , your treasons and machinations haue bene so apparent and so approued , by the consent almost of all other Papists ; as that I may truly pronounce , that in the whole thronge of Papists , a true and Loyal Papist towards his Protestant Soueraigne ( so rare such an one is ) is lyke a Diamond , placed among many whyte Saphyrs : So iust reason had the learned D. Morton to say of your Profession : We may e e D. Mort in his Romish position● pag. 51. now expect as well a white Ethiopian , as a loyall Subiect of this Religion .

MICHAEAS .

Alas . M. Vice-Chancelour . These are but verball exagerations without prouffe : which as they are but wynde of sp●enfull tongues , so are they blowne away with the Wynd . Be it , that some Catholicke Doctours in certaine peculiar Cases , do ascrybe a powrfull authority to the Pope against Princes ; And grant also , that some few Catholicks haue proued to be ( to the ineffable greife and dislyke of all other good and sober Catholicks ) Disloyall to their Prince : Yet since the difference both of their doctrines , and circumstances of their attempts , are incomparably short and inferiour , to the doctrynes and reall insurrections of the Protestants , against their Soueraignes ; You haue no reason ( M. Vice Chancelour ) thus to insult , in galantry of such amplifying speeches against vs . Therefore I will paralell them heare together ; that so you seeing the greate disparty , may ●ecall ( for shame ) those your speeches ; and suffer your cheekes to witnes your former errour .

And first touching the doctrine . The Protestants ( I meane , those former alledged Protestants ) do extend this power of deposing Princes to euery pore parochial superintendent ; who is Pope , ( or so would be ) within his owne circuit ; yea for want of such a turbulent fellow ( if at any tyme , theare can be a want of these ) they giue this liberty ( as aboue I haue showed ) to the base Common people , and promiscuous multitude ; the many headed tyrants of all humane societyes : The Catholicke deuynes , who most defend such transcendency of proceedings , do neuertheles ascrybe the doing of it to the Pope only ; who is a stranger , and therefore further of from any such sudden & present attempting ; and who himselfe in case of Heresy ( as a priuate person ) lyeth open to the same perill . This also they teach must be done , by many former sweete admonitions and proceedings . To proceede to the attempts on both sides . The Protestants haue actually deposed seuerall Kings , Queenes , and absolute soueraigns : Thus is the King of Spayne deposed , of a greater part of the Lowcontryes ; the King of France , of certaine Cittyes in France ; The supreme Lord of Geneua , of his Territory belonging to that Cittie ; The Emperour , of many Imperiall Cittyes in Germany ; King Sigismond , of his Kingdome of Sweueland and Finally his Maiesties Grandmother and Greatgrandmother , of the Kingdome of Scotland : The Pope and the Catholicks haue neuer yet to this day , actually detroned any one absolute Protestant Prince or King , throughout all Christendome , of their States and Territoryes . The greatest matter of this nature , that can be alledged , is the excommunications of King Henry the eight of England , Queene Elizabeth his daughter , and King Henry of France the fourth . The Protestants haue come into the fyeld against their Catholicke Princes , in many huge Armyes and hundred thousans of men ; as appeareth by the warrs made by them in the Low Countryes , France , & Germany : which warrs haue continued for many yeres : The Catholicks neuer yet leuyed any such Armyes against their protestant Prince . Lastly the Protestants haue not only deposed their Princes of seuerall states and Countryes ; but they haue really impatronized themselues of the sayd states , and keept them in their owne possession ; as is ouer manifestly euident by the examples of Rochel in France , Geneua , Holland , Zeland , seuerall parts of Germany , Sweueland , Transiluania &c. The Catholicks to this very day haue not made themselues Lords of any one towne or Citty ( much lesse of any state or Kingdome ) which haue belonged to their protestant Princes . And thus farre touching the libration and weighing in an euen hand , the doctrine and attempts taught and made by Protestants & Catholicks in point of disloyalty , against their lawfull dread soueraigns of a different Religion .

And now ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) after the true vnfoulding of these matters ( which afore were lapped vp in a great mistaking ) I demaund of you , where are your former Termini Conuertibilis of Papistry & Disloyalty ? Your similitude of one Diamond , among many worthles Saphyrs ? And D. Mortons strange beast ? As if all Papists ( and ●o Protestants ) were guilty of Treason and Rebellion , against their lawfull Princes : so fowly , you see , your selfe was mistaken therein ; and so wildly did your Doctour●aue ●aue of a whyte Ethiopian .

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

Michaeas . I am tyred with learning thus much of this distastfull Theame ; and I am vnwilling , you should spinne out this discours to any further lenght : Therefore you may heere end . And truly I would scarse haue beleiued till now , my owne eyes ( much lesse , my eares ) that the Protestants wrytings and actions had stood so iustly subiect to this kind of Reprehension . But I must yield ( though with greife ) to such euident testimonyes , as you haue produced ; and the rather , seeing you ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) suffer them to passe without eyther gainsaying the testimonyes alledged , or denying the Examples insisted vpon .

But [ Michaeas ] notwithstanding the truth of all , what you here haue sayd ; Neuerthelesse you haue proceeded very partially in your discourse ; seeming to inuolue all Protestants within the greiuous offence of disloyalty , because some of them do deseruedly stand obnorious thereto : And you deale as iniustly herein , as if one should charge all mankind with drunkennes , because many men do sinne therein . But I feare , you repute no men loyall , but those of your owne religion .

MICHAEAS .

My honourable Lord . be such & ouersight far distant from my thoughts ; and God forbid , my charitable conceats should be enriched within so narrow a compasse , as Your Lordship seemes to coniecture . No. I do willingly acknowledge , that many Protestant Doctours haue in their wrytings learnedly defended the right and royalty of absolute Princes , against their subiects of a contrary religion . I also do as fully acknowledge , that theare are many thousand Protestants in the world , who ( no dowbt ) would spend their lyues and liuings in defence of their Souerain of a different fayth , whos loue , zeale , and loyalty is caried with a most forcible bent to their Princes safety and honour . What is aboue deliuered by me , is euen forcedly drawne out of me , by way of recrimination ; since M. Vice-Chancelour would neuer cease to weary your Lordship & idly beate the wynd , in obiecting Disloyalty to me and my Religion ▪ Therefore my good Lord , do not thinke , I do extend my former discours to Protestants in generall ; or particularly to the Protestants of England in these dayes , whose laudable & confessed Loyalty farre be it from me in any sort to impugne but rather my pene shall be ready vpon iust occasion , to celebrate such their due praises thearein . But to be short , your Lordshid may obserue , that what is aboue spoken , is spoken not by me , but by the Protestants themselfs ; and acknowledged , as so spoken ( and therefore condemned ) by other learned Protestants . What dislyke then I may incure heareby , the same doth necessarily attend vpon D. Bancroft , D. Bilson , D 〈…〉 u●cliffe and other moderate protestants , condemning the foresaid protestants of disloyalty . I am but the poore Relater of their words , and can be reputed no more faulty hearein , then is the Herauld , for openly proclayming the rebellion of a subiect against his prince ; or the Printer , for printing a history , contayning the manifest confessed vices of some particuler Men.

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Well , well , Michaeas . All what you haue said ( to which for this tyme , I will forbeare further to reply ) is not sufficient , to wash out the staynes of those other cryms , which you haue perpetrated in our vniuersity . You are come hither to make a rekoning for them , and not for to rauell out the tyme , in long and tedious perorations . I say , that besydes your disloyall positions , which you haue distilled into our Schollars iudgments ( which are ouer manifest , howsoeuer you do palliate them with impudent denyalls , and subtill recriminations ) you haue enuenomed some of them , with many superstitious and Popish doctrines . And not content to effect the same in words and speeches only , you haue not forborne ( so precipitious and impetuous you are in your designs ) euen to wryte certaine short Treatises of the said Popish Opinions ; geuing them to your Proselytes ▪ that so the poyson of theese your doctrines thus spreading it selfe , and multiplyed through these your aery wrytyngs ( as through a well disposed Medium ) may the more speedely affect the sense and vnderstanding of the more weake students . Now My Lord , if such a Man , who hath thus discolered the beauty and reputation of our ( otherwise ) most famous Vniuersity , shall escape vnpunished ; then insteed of due vnpunishments , let vs erect Tropheys and garlands of Honour to Men , for their attempted impietyes . And that your Lordship shall not fynde this my Accusation to be only verball ; but that you may rest assured , that this Man f f Act. 18● These words the Iewes spoke against S. Paul at his Arraignment . perswadeth Men to worship God , contrary to the Law ; I haue heare brought vnto your L. a Copye of Michaeas his owne hand writing of euery such Papistical doctrine , by hym vented out . Heare the wrytings are , which I deliuer at this present into your L. hands to peruse at your pleasure . The which , after your L. haue red , you shall find them to be , but certaine ro●ing Paperbulletts , shot by Michaeas , against the walls of our florishing Vniuersity ; Which ( for the tyme ) may perhaps make some small crack and noyse , but cannot batter : so fortified and firmely seated our Academy is , through the strenght of the Ghospell .

CERTAINE SHORT DSICOVRSES TOVCHING SOME POINTS OF CATHOLICKE RELIGION , WRITTEN BY MICHAEAS THE CONVERTED IEW AND FIRST .

That the preaching of the Word , and administration of the Sacraments are not the true Notes of Christs Church ; And that admitting them for such , they make wholy against the Protestants , and for the Catholicks .

THIS Question will take it best illustration and vnfoulding , if it be considered ; first , Categorically and absolutly in it selfe ; To wit , whether the Administration of the Word & Sacraments can be reputed to vs , for Notes of the Church ? Secondly , Hypothetically , that is , that if by supposall it be granted for the tyme , that they are the true Notes of the Church ; Whether the said Notes do preiudice the Protestant Church , and aduantage our Catholicke Church , or no ?

Both theese poynts shall heare be discussed . And first of the first . Wheare the Reader is in the beginning to vnderstand , that the true Reason , why a a Ins●it . c. 1. par 〈…〉 . 10. 〈…〉 ela 〈◊〉〈◊〉 di 〈…〉 verb● p 〈…〉 dic 〈…〉 S 〈…〉 nto 〈…〉 que obj 〈…〉 onem posuimus . Caluin , the Confession of b b Art. 7 Augusta , c c In his 〈◊〉 of the answere p 81. D. W 〈…〉 guift , d d Contra Camp. rat . 〈◊〉 . D. Whitakers , and all other Pro 〈…〉 in generall do prescribe theese as Notes of the Church is for two respects : first , that by this meanes themselves may be Vmpiers , where and which is the true Church ; seing they alone through their misapplication of the Scripture , and priuiledge that they ascribe to their owne Spirits , interpreting the Scripture , will with a Lordly peremptorines decree and set downe , Where and when the Word is truly preached , and the Sacraments duly administred ( they reiecting all other Mens interpretation heerein ) and consequently , where and which is the true Church . The second reason of the Protestants constituting theese as Notes , is , Because on the one side they see , that the Church of Christ by force of all Reason and prudence , is to enioye some Notes , for it distinguishing from all prophane Conuenticles : And on the other side they well discouer , that the Notes of the Church assigned by Catholicke Wryters ( to wit , Antiquity , Suc●ession of Pasteurs , an ●ni●terrup●●d Visibility , Working of M 〈…〉 s , Holin●s of Life and doctrine , Vaity , and diuers others of like nature ) are by all Ecclesiasticall Authours , reason , and experience , and by the Protestants confessions , peculiar to our Catholicke Church ; and incomparible with their protestant Church . Therfore in this their want of be●te● Notes ( seing euen for very shame , some Notes their Church must haue ) they haue thought it good policy , to erect the preaching of the Word and vse of the Sacraments , as Notes : And thus they , reiecting all former Catholicke Notes , do reduce ( as aboue is said ) the determining of which is the true Church , to the inappealable and last Resort of their owne priuate opinions ; passed vpon the true preaching of the Word and the due administration of the Sacraments .

But now to come to the Question it selfe , touching these Protestant Notes ; Where the ●eader ( for the more cleare setting downe of the state of the Question , and his owne better instruction ) is to conceaue ; first , that these Protestant Notes ( supposing them to be Notes of the Church ) prooue only the place , where the Church is ; but not , which is the Church ; Which here is only the Question . Secondly , the Reader is to call to mind , that whereas a Note may be of two sorts : The one in respect of Nature ; the other in respect of vs , according to the doctrine of the learned Protestants themselues , thus teaching : Nottus est duplex ; e e Lub●ertus ( the Protestant ) l. 4. de Eccles. cap. 〈◊〉 Vnum Naturae , vlterum nobis : that here the Question is only of such Notes , as are Notes in respect of vs , for our better informing , which is the true Church ( since here we are instructed à postartori , and according to the measure of that knowledg , which God vouchsafes to affoard to vs . ) And not as they are Notes in respect of Nature ; Which Notes in regard of Nature , are euer 〈…〉 sicall secret , and often essentiall to the thing , of which they are Notes . Now in reference hereto , we free●y grant , that the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments may be tearmed Notes of the Church ; but not Notes to vs , which is the only point now isluable : for though they be Notes in Nature , of the true Church : yet what anayleth it vs : since they are not Notes to vs for our direction , to find which is the true Church ?

And here we are to remember , that the Question is not , what kind of Notes , or what kind of knowledge is better ( for it is granted , that scire per Causas , is most perfect and noble ) but the Question is , what kind of knowledge God is content to imparte to vs , in this life , for the attayning of the Mysteryes of our f●●th , and particularly for the knowing & searching out , which is his Church .

Now that the true preaching of the Word , and vse of the Sacraments cannot be erected as notes of Christs Church ( I euer meane in respect of vs ) is seuerall wayes demonstrated .

And first , this I prooue from the Nature of a Note ; which is euer to be of a greater perspicuity and clearnes , and better knowne to vs , then the thing is , of which it is a Note . Since otherwise it should follow ( an inference both in reason and Art most absurd ) that , that which is vnknowne , should be prooued by an other thing , which is lesse knowne an● more obscure .

That the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments ( which is but a necessary 〈◊〉 to the true preaching of the Scripture ) are more obscure and vnknowne to vs , then is the Church ; I prooue first , from the Scripture ; which teacheth , that true sayth ( which is the effect of true preaching the Word ) proceedeth only from the Ministery of the Church , according to that : how f f Rom. 10 shall they beleiue , whom they haue not heard ? and ho 〈…〉 sh a● they heare , without a Preacher ? Thus Gods sacred Word ( we see ) doth presuppose , that the Minister , who is the member of the Church , ( and consequently it followeth hereby , that the Church must be afore knowne ) doth reueale vnto vs the true sense of the Scripture . And therefore Caluin thus well sayth of this point : Deus g g Instit. l. 4. c. 1. para 〈◊〉 . 5. potest memo 〈…〉 sues perficere : nolit tamen eos adol●scere in 〈…〉 ilem ●tatem , nisi educatione Ecclesiae : God can pe●fect and instruct vs in a moment ( meaning touching fayth ) yet he will not bring vs to any manlike ( as it were ) and perfect strength therein , but by the help and lab●ur of the Church . And hence it is , that in all Controuersyes touching fayth , we are alwayes for the determining of them , bot● in the iudgments of the auncient h h Tertul. l. de Pra●●●pt c 21 irenaeu● l. 3. cap. 4. Fathers and learned Protestants i i D. Barow l. de fide & 〈◊〉 ortu p 40. Melanct●● l 〈◊〉 epist. ad Re●●cm An 〈…〉 , p 49. Hocker in Eccle 〈…〉 pol in the pr●face sect. 6. pag. 28. D. Bancroft in his Sermon preached 8. of February anno . 1588. referred to the Church ; Among whom I cannot here pretermit the sentence of D. Field , thus wryting : Seeing k k D. F●eld of the Church in his Epistle Dedicatory . t●e Controuersies in our tyme are growne in number so many , and in nature so intricate &c. What remayneth for me● , d●sirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but delige●tly to search out , which among all the societyes of Men in the World , is that blessed Company of Holy Ones , that house-hould of fayth , that spouse of Christ , and Church of the living God , which is the pillar and ground of truth , that so they m 〈…〉 follow her directions , and re●i in her 〈◊〉 ? Thus we are instructed by this learned Protestant , to know which is the true fayth in all Controuersyes and sincere 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the Word , from the Church ; and not to know , which is the Church , from the sincere preaching of the Word .

Secondly , that the true prea 〈…〉 of the Word and the vse of the Sacrements ●re more ob 〈…〉 and difficult to vs to be knowne , then to know 〈◊〉 is the true Church ; appeareth from the volunt●●y acknowledgments of our most iudicious Aduersaries : For greater 〈◊〉 hearei● , I will insist only in o●e or two . And to omit the answearable iudgment hearto of D. Fyeld , potentially included in his 〈…〉 met words ; We do fynd Iustus Molitor ( a learned Protestant , and Aduersary in his 〈…〉 gs to Cardinal Be●l●rmy●e ) thus to confes : Nobis l l De militante Eccies . p. ●34 . Quo ad iud 〈…〉 s ●o f●s● al● qua notitià , prius vera Eccles 〈…〉 , quam 〈◊〉 praedicatio 〈…〉 o●escit &c. The true Church by a cert 〈…〉 co 〈…〉 , 〈◊〉 so 〈…〉 k●o●ne to vs , according to the iudgment of re●son , then the preaching of the true word is knowne . With whom c 〈…〉 pireth in expr●s Words the foresaid mentioned 〈…〉 testart Lubbertus , thus wryting : Sacramenta m m Lib. de Eccles. printed 1607 p. 226. in v 〈…〉 nt nobis m 〈…〉 , quam ●psa Ecclesia : The true vse of the 〈…〉 ments i● lesse knowne ●o vs , 〈◊〉 the Church . And 〈◊〉 geueth his ●eason hereof in these Words : Nobis notio●a su 〈…〉 externa signa●per quae rem● qu●●doque cogn 〈…〉 ; The external signes are more man 〈…〉st 〈◊〉 , v● , by which we know a thi●g ▪ 〈◊〉 heareby imp●ying , that the true administration of the word & Sacraments is internal and inward in respect of the true externall Notes of the Church . For although eich preaching of the Word and vse of Sacraments be externall and sub●ect to the outward Sense ; yet which is the true preaching of the word , and true administration of the Sacraments ( for as they are purely preached , and sincerely administred , so ( and no otherwise ) are they appoynted by the Protestants for the Marks of the Church ) is internal ; since truth in doctryne is internal and inuisible . We may ad hearto , that in the note of true preaching the word , the beliuing & receauing it so preached & this with perseuerance ) is included by our Aduersaries doctrine , as a part of the same Note . But how can it be known , whether the Word ( though truly preached ) be truly heard and beleiued with a final perseuerance ? So far distant is this pretended Note , from being ( for our direction ) a true Note of the Church .

An other Argument for the impugning of the Protestants former Notes may be this . The Scripture it selfe cannot be made knowne to vs to be Scripture , but by the attestation of the Church : for as for that sentence , which teacheth , that the Maiesty and voyce of God , which appeareth in the Scripture , or the Priuate Spirit iudging of it , ass●eth vs , which is true Scripture , it is an exploded Errour ; Seing one Man is persuaded , he fyndeth in those books , which himselfe admitteth for scripture , that Maiesty and voyce of God : the which very books , for want of the said supposed voyce or Maiesty , an other Man vtterly reiecteth , as Apocryphil . And in lyke sort , the priuat Spirit of this Man embraceth such books , as Canonical : the which bookes the Priuat Spirit of an other absolutely discanoneth .

Now this being granted , it from hence ineuitably resulteth , that first we must know , which is the true Church , to giue this approbation of the Scripture , before we can know , which is the Scripture ; and much more then , before we can be assured , which is the true preaching of the word and sincere construction or Sense of the Scripture . Now that our knowing which is Scripture , proceedeth from the authoritie of the Church , I first proue , not only from S. Austin , who saith : (n) Actibus Apostolorum necesse est me credere , si c●edo Euangelio ; ( 〈◊〉 ) Tom. 6. contra epist. fundamenti c. 5 quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholiea commendat Ecclesia : But also from the acknowledgement of our learned Aduersaries ; whose words in their wrytings to this purpose are most plentifull . I will content myselfe ( referring the Reader to the references of others o o Kempnit . exam. part. 1. p. 69. Zanchius de Sacra Scriptura p. 61. D. Whita● aduers . S●apelto . num p. ●00 . D. ●ewd in 〈◊〉 defence of the Apology . p. 201. at this tyme with Peeter Martyr , and M. Hooker . Peter Martyr , thus wryteth : We p p In his Common places englished part . l. c. 6. acknow ledge it to be the function of the Church ( seing it is endued with the Holy Ghost ) that it should discerne the true and proper books of Scripture . M. Hooker more fully 〈…〉 th heare of , saying q q In his Eccles. policy . sect. 14. lib. 1. p. 86. Of thing necessary , the very cheifest is to know , what bookes we are to 〈◊〉 ●●ly ; Which poynt is confessed impossible , for the Scripture it selfe to teach &c. For r r Eccles. pol. l. ●2 . sect. 4. p. 102. of any Booke of Scripture did geus testimony to ●ll ; et sti● that Scripture , which geneth credit to the rest , world require ●n other Scripture to g●ue credit vnto it : Neither could we come to any pa●se , whe reon to rest vnles besids Scripture , theare were something , which might assurs vs . Which thi●g M. Hocke●man other place articulatly ●earmeth : The s s vbi supra l. 3. p 146. authority of Gods Church , thus saying : We all know , the 〈◊〉 outward Motyue leading Men to esteeme of the Scripture , is the authority of the Church . Now if by these learned Mens con●ession , the Church hath authority to propownd to vs , which bookes presented for Scripture , are true Scriptures and which are Apocry● hall and spurious ; then followeth it , that the Church hath in lyke sort authority to propownd to vs , which is the true and pure sense of the Scripture ; since the one is as necessarye to vs , as the other ; for it aduantageth vs litle to know , which are the vndoubted bookes of Scripture , if so we know not which is the true sense of the Scripture .

Now out of the Premisses I demonstratiuely conclude , that seing by the authority of the Church ( and not otherwise ) we are tought which ●ookes of Scripture are Canonicall , and consequently which is the true sense of the said Scripture ; that therefore the Church being f●ster in ode● of knowledg to vs , then either the Scripture , or the true preaching of the word of Scripture ; the true preaching of the word is not , nor can be apprehended to be a Note to vs , to find thearby which is the true Church . Since then it would follow ( an absurdity incompatible with all true discours of Reason ) that a thing , which to vs is later knowne , should be a Note to vs of that , which by vs is first knowne .

An other argument may be drawne from the Nature of euery true Note ; which ought to be so peculiar to that , of which it is a Note , as that it cannot be applyed in the iudgment of others to it meare Contrary : But we see different sectaryes teaching contrary doctrynes , and professing themselfs to be members of different Churches , do all neuertheles promiscuously challenge the true preaching of the Words , and the vse of the Sacrements to be the Notes of their so much discording Churches or Conuenticles . And therefore the afore named Lubbertus thus truly pronounceth of this poynt : * * Lubbertus , l. de Eccles. printed . 1607. l. 4. c 2. p. 202. Praedicatio , Sacramentorum communicatio , & similia , Ecclesiae essentiam non attingunt ; sunt enim Haereticorum conuerticulis & veris Christianorum Ecclesi●s communia : The preaching of the word , the distribution of the Sacraments , and such like , do not belong to the essence of the Church since these things are common both to the Conuenticles of Hereticks , and to the true Churches of Christians . And according hearto we find by experience , that Lutherans , Protestants , and Puritans theaching most repugnante doctrines , do wartant these their doctrines , by the former Notes of preaching the Word . And therefore it from hence followeth , that it is no lesse a madnes in our aduersaries , to prescrybe the preaching of the word and the vse of the Sacraments , for the notes of the Church ( which are common to all Hereticall Conuenticles at least in their owne Opinion ) then for one , who would discouer and note out one particular Man from all others , to distinguish him from them , by saying : It is he , who hath two eyes , one nose , one mouth , two armes &c. Since these Notes or description are common to all men in generall .

Againe , I thus dispute . A true Note of any thing ought to be at all tymes ( without discontinuance ) a Note theareof , and not sometymes only : since otherwise it is but a temporary Note . But theare hath bene a Church of God euen then , when there was no Scripture at all : much lesse any preaching or interpretation of the Word Therefore the preaching of the word cannot be erected , as a true Note of the Church . The Assumption of this argument is manifest : For it is acknowledged , that the Church of God continued two thousand yeres before Moyses his tyme , without any Scripture : and therefore D. Parkins truly thus saith : Morses u u In his reformed Catholick . p. 133. was the first pennman of Holy Scripture ; With whom agree x x De Sacra Script . p. 133 Zanchius , D. y y Whitak . de sacra Script . p. 99. & 583. Whitakers , and all other learned Men whosoeuer . Againe after Moyses had pened the Scripture , it remayned only in the custody of the Iewes , and was among them for many yeres lost ; as it is granted euen by the marginall annotations of the English Bibles of the yere 1576. where it is said : That z z Vpon the 2. of Kings . c. 22 and 2. Chron. 34. it was either by the negligence of the Priests lost , or by the wickednes of idolatreus Kings . And yet euen in those tymes Iob and diuers others were of the true Church of God : of which poynt peruse S. a a De ciuit . Dei . l. 18 c. 47 Austin .

Furthermore Irenaeus b b Lib. 3. cap. 4. saith , that theare were diuers Countryes of Christians , which beleiued only by preaching and by force of Tradition , without enioying any Scripture at all . And it is certaine , that after our Sauiours passion , theare was a distance of tyme , before any part of the New Testament was written . And after when it was penned , what partly by violence of persecution , and partly through scarsity of Manuscripts , the New Testament could but come to the hands of few , in respect of the whole number of Christians then in being : which being true : how then could the Scripture or the preaching of the Word be a knowne Marke , to all other Christians of those dayes ? Neyther auayleth it heere to reply , that whatsoeuer was then deliuered by Tradition , was agreeing and answerable to what was afore or after written by the Apostles & Euangelists . This satisfyeth not the point ; seing admitting so much for true ; yet what was then deliuered , was receaued by the hearers through the authority only of the Church , and not by Note or direction of the Scripture ; which is the point here concrouerted . But to proceede further . I do aue●re , that this Position of erecting the preaching the word for a Note , for the ignorant to fynd out the true Church , implyeth in it selfe an absolute contradiction . The reason is this First euery true Note of anything , must first be knowne it selfe to the party so ignorant and doubting : But it is impossible , that the true preaching of the Word should be knowne to one , as long as he con●nues ignorant or doub●f●ll ; therefore it is impossible , that to such a man the true preaching of the Word should become a Note of the Church .

Secon●ly , True sayth is no sooner knowne , but that withall the true Church is knowne ; Therefore true preaching of the Word ( from whence springs true sayth ) cannot be any Note of the Church : Since that thing , of which any Note is giuen , ought not to be coincident with the Note ; but is to be knowne after the Note is knowne ; and not immediatly at o●● and the same tyme with the Note ; seing the end of the Note is after to know a thing , of which it is a Note .

My last argument here vsed shal be taken from the consideration of the obscurity and difficulty in generall of the Protestant Note here giuen . For if the Scripture be in it selfe most sublime , abstruse , and the sense thereof impenetrable without Gods directing grace therein ; how then can it be obtruded for a Note of the Church , not only to the learned , but to the illiterate and vnlearned ? Now that the Scripture is most difficult , is a point acknowledged by all learned men , and prooued by senerall Media . First because the Scripture is authenticall only in the originalls , according to those words of D. Whitakers : c c De Sacra Scriptura con●●●u●rs . 1. q. 〈◊〉 . p. 128. Nullam nos editionem , nisi Hebraicam in vetere , & Graecam 〈◊〉 Nouo Testament● authen●●cam facimus . This being admitted , how can the ignorant in the Hebrew and Greeke tongues , know which is true Scripture , or which is the true sense of the Scripture ? Yf it be replyed , that they are to know true Scripture from the Translations of it , I say hereto that ( besydes no Translation of Scripture ●s authenticall Scripture , both in the former Doctours iudgement , as also in the censure of D. d d ●n his b●e●fe answere to Iohn Burges pag. 94. Couell ) seing there are many Translations made of Scripture by the Protestants , and one mainly differing from an other , and accordingly eich such translation is charged as Hereticall and erroneous by other Protestants , the ignorant in the tongues cannot discerne which translation among so many is the truest . And as touching the English Translation in particular , it is thus condemned by the Protestants themselues : e e In the abridgment of the b●oke ●iuē by the Minister of Lincolne Diocesse to his deceased Maiesty . vide p. 11. 12. 13. &c. A Translation ; which taketh away from the text ; which addeth to the Text ; and that sometymes to the changing or obscuring of the meaning of the Holy Ghost . And yet more : A Translation , which is absurd , and senselesse , peruerting in many places the meaning of the Holy Ghost . Now then if the ignorant , who can but reede , is thus stabled , how shall all they do , who cannot reede at all ? And yet to all such Men God ( who f f 1. Tim. 2. would haue all men saued ) hath left some meanes for their direction , to find out the true Church ; which meanes must be sutable to their capacity and in themselues infallible ; seeing otherwise they cannot produce true fayth , without which the vnlearned cannot be saued .

The like difficulty of the scripture appeareth , not only from the seeming contrary places of the scripture ; one text in shew of words impugning an other ; all which to reconcyle ( though in themselues they are reconcileable ) there is no small difficulty : But also euen from the many Comments of the scripture , made euen by the Protestants . For if the scripture be easy and facill , to what end do themselues bestow such labour and paynes in illustrating of it ? And if it be of such difficulty , as that it needeth Commentaryes for it further explanation , how then can the true sense of it be prostituted ( especially to the vnlearned ) as a true Note of the Church ?

Lastly , the difficulty of the sense of the scripture is so great , as that it selfe needeth other more cleere Notes ( as I may call them ) to make it selfe knowne ; without which Notes it selfe resteth most doubtfull And yet are these second Notes in themselues most vncertaine . The Notes for the finding out of the true sense of the scripture , are in D. (g) Reynolds and D. (h) ( 〈◊〉 ) In his ●●n●e●●●● p 83. 84. 92 98. &c. Whitakers iudgments , these following : Reading of the Scripture Conference of Places , we●g●●●g the Circumstances of the text , Skill in 〈…〉 gues Prayer &c. In the obseruation of all which , a 〈…〉 Lib. de Sacra Script . p. 521 522. &c. Man stands neuerthelesse subiect to errour and false construction of the scripture , euen by the iudgment of D. Whitakers , thus saying : i i Lib. de E●cl●● cōtrouer● . 2. quae●●t 4 pag. 221. Q●●l●à ●ll●medi● su●● &c. Such as the meanes of i●terpreting the obscu●e places of the scripture are , such also is the interpretation but them 〈…〉 es of in●●●p e●ing obscure places are incerta , dubià , & ambigua , vncertaine , doubtfull and amb●guous : Therefore it necessarily followeth , that the interpretation it selfe is vncertaine ; si incerta , tunc potest esse f 〈…〉 sa , and if it be vncertaine , then may it be false . Thus farre D. Whitakers .

Now I referre to any Mans impartial iudgment , how the true preaching of the Word ( which euer presupposeth the true sense thereof ) can be a certaine and infallible Note of the true Church ; when itselfe necessarily ●elyeth vpon meanes , as Notes of it ; which meanes are in themselues vncertaine ; and at the most can affoard but a doubtfull , and perhapps a false construction of the Scripture ?

And here now I can but commisserate our aduersaries : who seing themselfs enui●oned in these strayts , touching the finding out of the true sence of the Scripture , by Men vnlearned , vnskilfulle in the tongues , and perhaps not able to reade ( and consequently touching this their mayntayned Note of the Church ) are ●●nally and for their last refuge , enforced to compart hearein with the very An●baptists ; fleeing for the interpreting of the Scripture , to the testimony of Gods Spirit , and immediate instruction of the Holy Ghost . Sortably hearto we find , that the foresaid D. k k Lib. de Sacra Script . cōtrouer● . 1. quaest. 2. p 127. Whitakers ( to re●er others l l M. Wutton in his answere to a pop●●bly Pamphlet . pag. 20. D. Barlow in the defence of the Articles of the Protestant Religion . pag. 199. to the Margent ) thus wryteth : Omnes linguarum imperiti &c. Al those who are ignorant in the tongues , though they cannot ●udge of places whether they be truly translated or not ; yet they appr●●e and allowe the doctrine , being instructed by the Holy Ghost . Thus he . O you m m Galat. 〈◊〉 sensles Galatians , who haue bewitched you ? For may not any ●obler , Wibstar , or other Mecanical fellow ( as by experience we daily find they do ) flee to this refuge for their interpreting of scripture ; at ouching themselfs in the interpretation thereof , to be peculiarly enlightned with the spirit and instruction of the Holy ●ho 〈…〉 ? Which being granted , what Heresies so absurd , which these ignorant fellowes will not attempt to mantayne ? And thus far to proue , that the true preaching of the word and a due administration of the Sacraments ) which resulteth , as aboue is said , by sequele out of the former Note of true preaching ) cannot be appoynted as Notes to vs , for our direction to finde out the true Church of Christ ; within which we are bound ( vnder payne of eternall damnation ) to implant our selses .

I will su●uect to th● Premisses this pertinent a●imaduersion following . It is this . When the Catholicks do demand the Protestants , to set downe certaine Notes of the true Church : And they answe●ri●g , that that Church is the true Church , which enjoyeth a true preaching of the Word , and a due and auayleable administration of the Sacraments . Now heare I auer , that this description of Notes is but our owne question , re●ur●ed vs back in other tearms ; and consequently but a Sophisme , ●●nsisti●g in an idle circulation of the same poynt , in●ested with a new forme of words . For when I demand , which is the true Church ; I vertually , implicitly , and according to the immediate meaning of my Words , demaund which Church is that , which enioyeth the true preaching of the Word and the true vse of the Sacraments : since only the true Church is honored with this Kynd of preaching and distribution of Sacraments : The Protestants then answearing , that that is the true Church , whearein are fo●d the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments , do they not giue me back my owne Question , varyed in other phrazes ? being no other thing in sense then to say : That Church , which enioyeth the true preaching of the word ; & due vse of the Sacraments , is that Church , which en●●yeth the true preaching of the Word and due vse of the Sacraments : Most absurde , being but : Demonstratio eiusdem per Idem , iustly exibilated out of all schooles .

Heare now I will end this first part of this Question of the Protestants Notes of the Church ; Admonishing the Reader of one thing : to wit , that whereas S. Austin s s Epist. 166. & l. de Vnit Ecclaes . c. 3. and other Doctours do say , that out of the Scriptures , we learne , which is the Church . This is so to be vnderstood that we are able to proue from the scripture , wheare the Church is : but this , not as from a Note of the Church ( which is the poynt only heare issuable ) but only because the scripture teacheth which are the Notes of the Church ; in teaching of what nature and quality the Church ought to be .

In this next place , we will handle the foresaid question Hypotetically , and by supposall only ; That is , we will imagin for the tyme , that the true preaching of the Word , and due administration of the Sacraments , are the Notes of the Church to vs . To this end we will call to mynd , what diuers learned Protestants do teach hearein : Caluin thus saith : Pastoribus u u Instit. l. 4. c. 3. sect. 4. & Doctoribus earere nunquam potest Ecclesia &c. The Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours , to preach the Word and administr●r the Sacraments . Doctour Fyeld confirmeth the same in these words : The x x Of the Church l. 2. c. 6. ministery of Pastours and teachers is absolutly and essentially necessary , to the being of a Church . Briefly Doctour Whitakers affirme , That * * D. Whtak . contra Camp. rat. 3. p. 44. the said Notes being present do constitute a Church , being absent , do subuert it . Now all this being granted , I confidently auer , that the force thereof doth most dangerously recoyle vpon our Aduersaries : since it irrephably proueth , that the Protestant Church hath bene ( contrary to the Nature of the true Church ) at seuerall tymes ( or rather for seuerall ages together ) wholy extinct and annihilated . Sine during many ages , it hath bene vterly voyde & depryued of Pastours and Doctourr , to preache the Word and administer the Sacraments .

That the Protestant Church hath during so many reuolutions of yeres absolutely wanted all Pastours and Doctours , to preach the word and dispence the Sacraments , is euicted in generall from the confessed Inuisibility of the Protestant Church for many Ages ; concerning which subiect , I refer the Reader to the perusing of the Second part of the Conuerted ●ew , out of which , I will discerpe certaine Confessions of the learned Protestants . First then Sebastianu Francus ( a Protestant heretofore alledged ) thus wryteth : For y y Epist. de abrouādis in vniuersum omnibus statut . Ecclesiast. certayne through the worke of Antichrist , the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departu●e ; and for these thousand foure hundred yeres , the Church hath bene no wheare externall and visible . D. Parkins in lyke sort thus confesleth : We z z In his exposition of the Creed p. 400. say , that before the dayes of Luther for many hundred yeres , an Vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth ; and that our Church was not then visible to the World . In regard of which confessed latency of the Protestant Church , Caluin had iust reason ( as presuming his owne Brethrens preaching of the Word to be true ) thus to say . a a Instit. 4 c. 1. sect. 11. Factum est , vt aliquot secul spura Verbi praedicatio euenuerit &c. It was brought to passe , that the pure preaching of the Word of God did vanish away , for the space of certaine ages . The perspicuity of which poynt ( I meane of the inuisibility of the Protestant Church in former ages ) will more easely appeare , if we insist for Example but in the ryme immediatly before Luthers Apostasy ; of what tyme it is thus confessed by D. Iewell ; as taking his doctryne to be the truth : b b In the Apology of the Church of En●land . part. 4. c. 4 p. 426. The Truth was vnknowne at that tyme , and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Swinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospell . Thus we see , that the acknowledged Inuisibility of the Protestant Church demonstratiuely prooueth the want of the former Protestant Notes , ( to wit , the preaching of the Word , and Administration of the Sacraments ) during all the tyme of the said granted in Visibility ; And that therefore the Protestants haue much endangered themselfs , assigning the said Notes , for the Notes of the true Church .

Now that the setting downe of the forsaid Notes do make for vs Catholicks is no lesse cleare , then the former poynt , for seing it is granted , that Pastours and Doctours must be in the Church , till the end of World , for the administration of the Word and Sacraments ; as not only D. Fulke , and other learned Protestants do teach ; but also is euidently proued in the fore-said mentioned Second Part of the Conuerted Iew : And seing an vnterrupted preaching of the Word and administratian of the Sacraments hath euer ( by the lyke Confession of our learned Aduersaries ) bene in our Catholicke Church ; Therefore it may inauoydably be concluded , that either our Catholicke Church ( as euer enioying the former imposed Notes ) is the only true Church of Christ ; Or ( which is most absurd in it selfe , and repugnant to infinit places of Holy Scripture ) that there hath beene ( for seuerall ages ) no true Church of Christ at all , extant vpon the face of the Earth . That the Catholicke Roman Church enioyeth the preaching of the Word , and administration of the Sacraments ( besides the euidency of the truth thereof other wise ) is confessed by D. Field , c c In his Booke of the Church l. 3. c. 6. f. 72. who speaking of Luther and others , acknowledgeth , that they receaued from the Church of Rome their Baptisme , Christianity , Ordination , and power of Ordination : By Luke Osiander , thus wryting : Ecclesia , d d Epiton . Cent. 16. p. 736. que sub Papatufuic &c. The Church , which was vnder the Papacy , when Luther was borne , was the Church of Christ ; for it had the ministery of the Ghospell , the sacred ●eriptures Baptisme , the Lords supper &c. and finally ( to omit many others ) by Luther himselfe thus acknowledging : e e In his booke against the Anabaptists . N●s fatema● &c. We confesse , that there is vnder the Papacy , true Scrpture , true Baptisime , the true Sacrament of the Altar , the true keres for the remission of Sinnes , the true office of preaching , true Catechisme . Thus Luther . And here with I end touching further discourse of this subiect : remitting to the euen and impartiall censure the more sober Protestant : whether the danger and detriment , which fall vpon our Aduersaryes , by erecting the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments , for Marke● of Christs Church ( granting them for the tyme , to be the marks thereof ) do not by many degrees ouerballance the aduantage , which our Aduersaryes ( by pretending them for Notes ) do hope to gaine . Since as by such their pretence , they on the one side , labour to reduce the knowing which is the true Church , to their owne priuat Iudgments ( which euery learned and iudicious man at the first sight expoldeth , for an impostute ) so on the other side , they are forced euen by most necessary Inferences ( resulting out of their owne doctrine herein ) first to grant , that the Protestant Church , as for many ages , by their owne acknowledgments , wanting the said Notes ( being essentiall to the true Church ) hath for the sayd ages ( contrary to the Nature of Christs true Church ) beene vtterly extinct , and not in being . Secondly , that during the sayd centuryes or ages , our Catholicke & Roman Church ( through it euer enioying of these Protestant Notes ) is the true Church ; or that otherwise , there hath beene no true Church of Christ , in all that great compasse of yeres ; Which last point to affirme , is most repugnant to God sacred f f Esay . 60 & 62. Psalm . 102. Ephes 4. besydes many other places . Writ .

That the Pope and Church of Rome may ( vpon most vrgent Occasions ) sometimes dispence with some degrees of Mariadge , prohibited in Leuiticus ; And that in so dispensing the Law of Nature ( which euer bindeth ) is not violated or transgressed by them .

THE explanation of th● Question taketh it source from this one Proposition : To wit ; All the preceps , which are deliuered in Leuiticus ( touching the degrees prohibited in mariadge ) do not bind Christians by deuyne law , to obserue them . Which proposition or sentence being once confirmed and fortifyed ; it then followeth , that the Church of Christ and the Head thereof , may vpon iust and most vrgent occasion dispense without any sinne , with some degrees prohibited in Leu●●icus .

For the better vnfoulding and vnderstanding of this one proposition , we are first to conceaue , that both the Catholicks and Protestants do teach : That the precepts of Leuiticus do not oblige Christians , as they are properly Leniticall ; that is , as they are Positiue and Iudic●all ; but only as they are Naturall ; that is , as they are prohibited by the law of Nature .

Now the Catholicks do further teach , that as some preceps in Leuiticus are Naturall ; so some other preceps are not naturall , but meerely iudiciall ; and therefore may be dispensed with , by Christ his Church , as the Councell of Trent a a Sess. 24. Can. 3. affirmeth ; Whereas our Aduersaryes mantayne , that all the precepts of Leuiticus are Naturall ; and therefore ●ich of them indispensable by the Church .

Now here we are to remember , that those are Naturall precepts , which are knowne for such only by the light of nature , without any discourse : or at least , which are knowne for such , by a most small discourse of Reason : And these precepts are the same among all Men , in all nations and tymes , both for the knowledge of them , and for the rectitude and iustnes of them . Now such precepts , as for the knowing of them , do neede supernaturall light , are called : Diuina positiua , diuine Positions : And those other Precepts , which receaue their establishment by humane discourse , from the Prince or Magistrate , are styled : Humana , humana Constitutions : and these are not the same among all men and in all nations .

Now then this iustly presupposed : The first proposition , to wit . That all the Precepts deliuered in Leuiticus ( touching the degrees prohibited in Mariadge ) do not bynd Christians by diuine Law , to obserue them . Is proued .

First , from the consideration of the different punishments , appointed in the twentith of Leuiticus against those , who transgresse in Ma●iadge the different degrees , prohibited in the eighteenth of Leuiticus Thus for example , we there fynd , that Mariadge contracted in the first degree of Affinity in the right line , God punisheth with death , and compareth it with adultery and sodomy : Which are manifestly against the Law of Nature . The same punishment of death is there apointed for such , as marye in the first degree of Consanguinity in a collaterall line ; as when the Brother maryeth the Sister . But now in the second degree of consanguinity in the collaterall line ( as when the nephew maryeth his Fathers sister , or the Mothers sister ) this Mariadge is punished with a lesse and more gentill punishment . In like sort , mariadge in the first degree of Affinity in the collaterall line ( as when one maryeth the wife of his brother being dead ; and in the second degree ; to wit , when the nephew maryeth the wife of his vncle ) is not punished with death of the parties , so contracted ; but only with priuation of children : That is , that the children begotten in such a mariadge , should not be as●rybed or reputed the children of their said patents . Now this punishment euidently showeth , that these mariadges are not prohibited by the Law of Nature ; since the light of Naturall Reason doth not dictate to all Men , that the former chastisement is a iust punishment of the foresayd kind of mariadge .

Secondly , the former proposition or sentence is thus prooued . If all the precepts of Leuiticus ( touching the degrees of mariadge ) were ordayned by the law of nature ; then followeth it , that they should be vniuersall ; so as all mariadges contracted within the degrees there prohibited , should be vnlawfull . For what is prohibited by the Law of Nature , is in all tymes and places prohibited ; as euen the Protestants do mantayne . But Moyses hath prohibited Leuiticus certaine mariadges , and hath permitted other mariadges in the same degree . Therefore this prohibition in Leuiticus proceedeth not from the law of nature ; but is meerely iudiciall and positiue : and consequently dispensable . The Assumption of this argument is euident : for the Law of Leuiticus doth forbid mariadge of the nephew with his Aunt , either by his Fathers or his Mothers side ; and yet it forbiddeth not mariadge of the Vncle either of the Fathers side or Mothers side , with the Neese eyther of the Brother or the sister : And yet the nephew & the aunt are in the same degree , in which the vncle and the neese are . In like sort Leuiticus forbiddeth mariadge with the wife of the brother , though dead ; and yet it doth not forbid mariadge with the sister of the wife , except the wife be aliue ; and consequently , it forbiddeth not with the sister of the wife being dead : And yet there is one & the same degree of affinity with the sister of the wife , and the wi●e of the brother .

Thirdly , the foresaid verity is thus prooued : If all the preceps ( touching the prohibition of degrees in Leuiticus ) were Naturall , & binding by the law of nature ; then they should at all tymes be bynding , even before the Law was Queene of them . As we see , that the Law of not killing , of committing adultery , of not stealing &c. were obliging , before the law of these Precepts were giuen to the Iewes by Moyses . Now if the foresaid Lawes touching the degrees prohibited in mariadge , were euer and at all tymes binding ; Then Men of sanctity and in high grace and fauour with God , would neuer haue contracted mariadges within those prohibited degrees : But there are federall examples of holy Men , who in the law of nature , did contract mariadge within the degrees prohibited in Leuiticus .

According hereto we fynd , that the Patriarch Iacob did take to wifes , two sisters , both liuing togeather : to wit , Lia and Rachael , as we ●eede in Genesis : b b Cap. 2● . But this is expressely forbidden in the eighteenth of Leuiticus : it being the first degree of affinity in the Collaterall line . In like sort , Iudas c c Gene 〈◊〉〈◊〉 3● . ( the Patriarch ) did giue in mariadge to his second Sonne , the wife of his first Sonne , being dead : and the second sonne after dying , Iudas promised her to his third sonne : And yet this degree is prohibited in Leuiticus : since it is ( as the former was ) the first degree of affinity in the Collaterall line .

Neyther can it be replyed agaynst these examples , & some others of this nature here omitted : That these Patriarchs did sinne in contracting the foresayd mariadges : for although Holy Men ( such as they were ) may , as men , sinne : yet still to liue and dye in this state without repentance , supposing it to be sinne ( as Iacob and Iudas did ) is not incident to vertuous men , and such as be the friends of God . Ad hereto , that if we grant , that the precepts of Leuiticus do euer bind in conscience : them followeth it , that not only Iacob and Iudas did sinne : but also that the Sonnes of them both were bastards and illegitimate .

Neither will that second Euasion ( geuen by some ) satisfy the former Examples . Which is , that God did dispence in the said Mariages , through some intended Mistery . This cannot be iustified , seing we reade in the twentith eight of Genesis , that two Sister were ioyned in Mariadge to one Man . Thus did Laban who ( when he had de●eaued Iacob in obtruding to him one Sister , for an other ) offend him the other whom he accepted : Neither was this Act reprehended by any , netheir repented of , as being an ouersight . Which if it had bene vnaccustomed and singular , and such as might iustly beget a scandall ; No dowbt the blessed Man Iacob would either not haue donne it , or a● lest would haue warranted the doing of it with some reason .

The lyke is euident in the fact of Iudas , who , when he ioyned the wyfe of one brother to an other Brother , insisted not in any dispensation from God for warranting this his Act : but vrged only the reason of the Custome : to wit to the end that the seede and ospring of the dead Brother might be raysed vp .

Lastly , the former Proposition touching the prohibited degrees in Leuiticus , is pro●ed out of Deutcronomy wheare it is d d Cap. 25. commanded , that if any one dye without children , his Brother shall mary his wife , that so he may raise vp issue to his dead Brother . Now h●e●e it can not be sayd , that this Law in Deut●onomy commandeth any thing against nature : since it is most absurd , that the Authour of nature should impug●● and crosse nature . Therefore from hence we may conclude , that it is not against the law of nature , but that for some most important & iust reasons some prohibited degrees in Leuiticus may be dispensed with . Now for the slauing of these two contrary lawes in Leuiticus and Deutronomy ( that so the scripture be not contrary to the Scripture ) we are to obserue ( according to the iudgment of the Learned ) that matrimony with the wife of the deceased Brother , is not prohibited in Leuiticus : but only as such a mariadge is considered in it selfe nakedly , simply , and abstracted from all Circumstances : euen as manslaughter is taken in the Decalogue , when it is sayd : Thou shalt not kill . Which law of Leuiticus doth not hinder , why there may not after be ordayned some particular positiue Lawes , which may prohibit mariadge with the wife of the Brother , according to some circumstance : and yet according to other circumstances , may warrant and iustify the said mariadge . Euen as the foresaid law in the decalogue : Thou shalt not kill : doth not let , but that particular lawes and decrees may be ordayned , which may command a theefe or a murtherer to be killed : and may also command , that he shall not be killed , who killeth another eyther by chance , or in his owne defence .

Now if against the former doctryne , deliuered in this question of prohibition of degrees in Leuiticus : It be obiected , that S. Iohn Baptist ( whose ministery imposed an end to the old law ) did confirme the precept of Leuiticus of not marying the wife of the Brother , when he sayd to Herod : e e Math. ●6 . It is not lawfull for thee , to haue the wife of thy Brother : And therefore howsoeuer this point was in the old law : yet now it is not lawfull , but wholy indispensable .

I answere hereto , and first say , that if we speake of the change and abrogation of the Law , Christ only , and not Saint Iohn Baptist did impose an end to it : though it be granted , that Saint Iohn Baptist was the last Prophet of the old Law . I further say , that it was not lawfull for Herod ( euen according to the Lawe of Leuiticus ) to haue the wyfe of his Brother : because an O●pring was then begotten of that former Mariadg ( to wit , the daughter of Herodiades , who so pleased the King with dansing , that she obtayned the heade of S. Iohn Baptist ) That this daughter was the daughter of Herodiades , begotte by the Brother of Herod , is acknowledged by the testimony of f f Homi● 49. in Matheun● . Chrisostome : Secondly , I further answeare to this example of Herod : that the sinne of Herod was not only Incest , but also adultery : since Herod did marye the wyfe of his Brother , he being yet liuing , as S. g g In Comment. c. 24. in Mathae●m . Ierom witnesseth out of auncient historyes : and h h L. 18. Antiquit , cap. 9. Iosephus auerreth the same .

Thus far then of this poynt , to show that all the Precepts of Le●iticus ( touching the prohibited degrees in Mariadg ) are not commanded by the law of Nature : and that they do not oblige Christians by diuine Law , for the euer obseruing of them : But that some of them are in themselfs dispensable : And consequently that the Church of Christ may ( vpon most vrgent Occasions ) sometymes dispense with some of the said Precepts .

Now heare then appeareth the inconsidrate and rash obloq●y of our Aduersaries : charging the Pope , that he teaching Mariadg to be a Sacrament : consequently by his owne doctrine , vndertaketh and presumeth to alter the Matter or Essentiall parts of a Sacrament : which was first instituted by Christ , and therefore inaltorable by Man . To which false aspertion I answeare , that neither the Pope nor the Church can change the essentiall parts of this or any other Sacrament for we are heare to conceaue , that the Matter of this Sacrament is not the ioyning together of euery Man or woman ( since then this Sacrament might be perfected betweene the Father and the Daughter . ) but only the ioyning together of Lawfull persons Now which are lawfull persons for Mariadg , Christ did not appoint or set downe ; but only a humane Contract betweene lawfull persons being presupposed , Christ himselfe did aduance this coniunction to the dignity of a Sacrament . Therefore the Church or the Pope doth only determine , who are to be accounted Lawfull Persons , for the contracting of mariadge ; And in this sort , the Church doth only prepare the Matter or foundation fitting for this Sacrament : But doth not , nor can alter and change the essentiall parts of the Sacrament of Mariadge . And herewith I conclude this short discours , touching this subiect .

That the Catholicks do not expunge out of Gods writ , or reiect those words in the Decalogue . Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image &c. But that they willingly acknowledge them , as part of the Decalogue : howsoeuer they be not sometymes set downe in Cathechis●es and Primars .

WHereas the Protestants do charge the Catholicks to conceale ( through their affected fraud ) in their Catechis●nes and Primars one commandement , and so to expunge it out of Holy Writ ; To wit : Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image , nor the likenesse of anything aboue in Heauen , or on earth beneath : neyther of those things , which are in the waters vnder the earth : Thou shalt nor adore them or worship them &c. This ( I say ) is eyther a fraudulent , or an ignorant mistaking of our Aduersaries . For the truth is , those words ( heere recited ) do but make one and the same Commandement with those first words : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me ; these later being but a more full explication of the first words ; and consequently may be omitted sometimes in a short numbering or setting downe of the Commandements . This is thus prooued : Euery Image is not prohibited in the Decalogue or ten Commandements ; but only that , which may be truly called an Idoll ; that is an Image , which is taken for God ; or which representeth God to be that thing , which God is not . Therefore when it is sayd . Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image &c. the exteriour Act of Idolatry is forbidden ; But in those first words : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me : the internall Act of Idolatry is prohibited : Of which point most at large Saint Austin a a Quaest. 77. discourseth .

Now that Images are not absolutely forbidden by the law of God , appeareth ; in that the Scripture telleth vs , that God himselfe commanded Images to be made : According heere to we reade in the booke of Kings , b b 3. Regum . c. 6. and 7. that God commanded the Images of the Cherubins , Lyons and Oxen to be made : In the Booke of Numbers , c c Cap. 21. the brazen serpent ; And in Exodus d d Cap. 25. the Images of the Cherubin to be made . From whence we may infallibly conclude , that the making of Images is not absolutely forbidden by God , as a distinct precept from the first ; but only so farre forth , as the Images be taken for God ; and consequently that ( as is aboue said ) these words ( forbidding the making of Images ) do but make one & the same Commandement with the first words : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me . And therefore the Catholicks do not fraudulently conceale one of the ten Commandements ; as our Aduersaryes do in their Pulpits tragically complaine .

Againe . Yf all Images should be absolutly prohibited , in the former words of the Decalogue ; then should it follow , that the Precepts of the Decalogue should not be only ten , but eleuen or twelue ; an inference incompatible with the Scripture e e Exod. 31. & 34. Deut●on . 4. 9. 10. it selfe , which in expresse words teacheth , that there are but ten Commandements . The necessity of this Inference is thus prooued . It is granted on all sides , that those words : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me , is one Precept . That , thou shalt not take the name of God in vayne , is an other . A third : Thou shalt keepe holy the Saboath day . A fourth ; Honour thy Father and thy Mother . A fift ; Thou shalt not kill . A sixt : Thou shalt not commit adultery . A seauenth : Thou shalt not steale . An eight . Thou shalt not beare falfe witnesse against thy neighbour . A ninth : Thou shalt no● couet &c.

Now that : Thou shalt not couet &c. is eyther to be deuyded into two precepts ▪ so as the ninth Precept shal be : Thou shalt not couet thy neighbours wife ; the tenth : Thou shalt not co●ct thy neighbours Oxe , nor his Asse , nor any thing , that is his . Or els those word : Thou shalt not couet &c. with all the words following to wit , his Wife , his Oxe , his Asse , or any thing , that is his ; do make but one precept or Commandement . Yf they ought to be deuided into two ; then followeth it , that those words : Thou shalt not make any grauen ●mage &c. shal be the eleuenth Commandement ( contrary to the Scripture ) or that , this is not a distinct precept from the first , videlicet : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me . As Clemens Alexander : f f Lib. 6. sto● . citum . Saint g g Quaest. 71. in Euod . & epist. 119. cap. 11. Austin , all schoolemen , and Latin Catechismes do teach . And then it followeth , that not euery grauen Image is forbidden in these words ; but only that , which is taken for an other God . Now if supposing further , that that : thou shalt not couet &c. be only one Precept ( as some other fathers do hould ) then ( to make vp the tenth Commandement ) all those words : Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen image &c. thou shalt not adorethem , nor worship them &c. do concurre to make vp one Precept or Commandement . But absolutly and simply to make Images , and to adore or worship them being made , are two different things in themselues ; because one man may adore an Image , which he did not make ; and an other Man may make an Image , and yet not adore it . Therefore only one of these two things is prohibited in the foresayd words . ( Since otherwise there should be eleuen Commandements : ) But it is certayne , that the worshipping of Images in place of God , is forbidden ; Therefore the absolute making of them is not forbidd●n ; but only with reference of worshipping them insteed of God .

Now the Schoolemen , and all Latin Catechismes , & Primars do follow herein the first opinion of S. Augustin ; to wit , that those words : thou shalt not make any grauen Image &c. do make but one Commandement , with the first Precept of not worshipping other Gods . And therefore Primars and Catechismes , intending but breifly and in few words , to set downe the ten Commandements , do omit to set downe that : thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image &c. thou shalt not adore them &c. because ( as is said ) these words are implicitly included in the first Commandement . In like sort , and for the same cause of briefly setting downe the ten Commandements ; we find , that Latin Cathechismes and Primars do omit to set downe diuers words immediatly following in Exodus , and belonging to the Commandement of keeping the Saboath day , holy . The words omitted are these : Six dayes thou shalt labour , and doe all thy worke ; but the seauenth day is the Saboath of thy Lord , thy God &c. Besides many other words there following . The same course the Catechisms and Primars take in setting downe the Commandement of honoring thy Father and thy Mother : where these words following are also for b●euity omitted : that thy dayes may be prolonged vpon the land , which the Lord , thy God giueth thee . Now is it not a loose and dissolute kind of reasoning , thus to argue : The Papists do purposely conceale and labour , to put out of holy Scripture , diuers passages immediatly following & belonging to the Commandements of keeping the Saboath day , holy ; and of honoring thy Father and Mother : because ( for greater breuity ) they do not set downe the said passages ( being but meere explications of the sayd Commandements ) in their Cathechismes and Primars , when they make recitall of the ten Commandements . And yet we see , the Protestants do euen in the same manner argue most wildly against the Catholicks , for not setting downe those words : Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image &c.

Yf the Protestants could prooue , that any one Catholicke did say or mantaine , that the said words of not making Images , were not Scripture , and were not spoken by God , in the deliuery of the ten Commandements to Moyses : then they had iust reason , to charge the Catholicks with great Impiety herein : But this is impossible for the Protestants to do . And therefore this accusation of the Protestants against the Catholicks herein , is an errour ( as in the beginning was intimated ) compounded of malice and ignorance : where ( I thinke ) the greater Ingredient is malice . And thus much touching the supposed raizing and expunging out of one Commandement by the Catholicks .

The Catholicke Doctrine touching Images .

TOuching Images the Catholicks do teach two things . First , that lawfully they may be had and kept , by reason of the profit proceeding from them . Secondly , that we hauing them , may lawfully geue vnto them a peculiar respect or worship ( aboue other prophane things ) as they are things consecrated vnto religious vses .

Touching the Vtility . This we find in them . First , they do instruct the ignorant , and such as cannot reade ; and therefore they are worthely called : a a Gre●●ry Nyssen , orat in Theodor. Libri illiter atorum , by some of the fathers . And hence it is , that the picture is so made , as that for the most part , it contayneth in it selfe a short abstract or Compendium of the history of him , of whom it is the Image : Thus for example , When Christ is painted either in the shape of a yonge Child in the bosome of his mother ; or in the forme of a Man , tyed to a Pillar to be whipped ; or hanging vpon the Crosse ; or rysing from the graue : or ascending to Heauen &c. And so the ignorant by behoulding the pictures , are theareby put in remembrance of the Incarnation , the Passion , the Resurrection , and the Ascention of our Lord and Sauiour . And the lyke may be said of the pictures of Saincts : who are commonly pictured in such sort , as that the picture doth descrybe some cheiffe part of their Sanctity , sufferance , Martyrdome , or power and authority . ) as for example , S. Lawrence is commonly pictured lying vpon the gridiron , and so of other Saincts ) And thus secondarily it resulteth from hence , that Images are profitabl● to 〈…〉 our Loue towards God , and his Saincts : Seing we see by experience , that who loueth , doth most willingly behould and comtemplate the Image of the partye , so beloued by him .

Lastly and principally , Images do greately healpe vs in tyme of prayer ; for seeing and behoulding them at that tyme , they presearue in vs the Memory of Christ and his Saincts : and so●n time of prayer our thoughts are fixed with greater eleuation of mynd vpon Christ and his Saincts , by reason of the pictures ●eare present . Now this is to be vnderstood that when we pray , we neither pray to the Pictures , nor honour them with the honour due to God ( for this is the Protestants willfully mistaken assertion , most wrongfully laid to our charge ) but only in presence of them , we do in tyme of prayer , prosecute God with that supreme reuerence and honour , which is peculiar to himselfe alone . This is the true vse , which we Catholicks make of Images in tyme of our Deuotions .

But now before we come to entreate of the worship of Images in particular ; we are to conceaue , that according to all learned b b S. Thomas . in 3. sentent . distinct . ● . Schoolemen , Adoration or worship of any thing containeth in it selfe three different Acts. The first , is an Act of the Vnderstanding by the which we apprehend the excellen●y of any thing : The second , the Act of the Will ; by the w●●ch we are inwardly moued to manifest or protest our Worship , by some exteriour or interiour Act : The third , is an exteriour Act : by the which we moue our hat , or bow our leg , or show some other externall signe in manifestation of our inward worship geuen . Of which three Acts , the second ( which is of the Will ) is most e●entiall ; seeing the first may be without Adoration , and the third with ●rision and scorne ; as the Iewes worshipped our Sauiour vpon the Crosse . Heare further we are to remember , that that worship , which is geuen to God alone , is a cheife and supreme prostration and inclination of the Will , with the apprehension of God , as the first beginning and last ending of all things : and therefore as our cheife Good : and is called by the Deuynes , Latria : and cannot be communicated without Idolatry to any Creature .

Worshipps geuen to Creatures are distinguished , according to the different degrees of excellencyes in the Creatures . And so according to the different degrees of the worth of Creatures , the worship exhibited is seuerally called : as dulia , s●perdulia , cultus religiosus , and cultus ciuilis . Lastly , it is further to be obserued , that by the exteriour Act , it is not easy to distinguish the seuerall kynds of worshipps : For almost all exteriour Acts ( sacrifice only excepted ) are common to euery kynd of worship . And according hearto wee recde , that Abraham with the same act of bowing his body to the ground , did adore God , Genes. 17. did worship Angells . Genes. 18. And did worship Men , Genes. 23. In lyke sort , all men do vse to kneele to God in their prayers : to their Prince or King : and to their owne parents : yet with disparity of honour to eich of theese . And heare is the source and fountayne of the Protestats mistaking , who hearing that Catholicks do sometymes exhibit part of that externall worship to Creatures , which is geuen to God : do instantly exclayme forth in this , or the lyke maner ; Se how the Papists commit Idolatry to Creatures : see how they pray to stocks and stones : Poore Men , I commiserate their Ignorance who so much mistake the true meaning of the Catholickes practise .

Now then the former doctryne presupposed , touching the worship geuen to Images : This ensuing is the Catholicke doctryne : c c Thus teacheth the Councell of Trent . sess. 25. Images of Christ and his Saincts are to be worshipped and honored with a peculiar respect ; so as neither any Confidence be placed in the Images : neither any petityon be made to them , nor that it be bele●ued , that theare is any Diuinity in them . And this honour , being but an inferiour kind of religious worship , ascrybed to things consecrated to holy ends ( as is euer presumed ) is geuen them only for the persons sake , of whom they are Images , and whom they represent .

This is proued by the example of the Images of the Cherubins , d d Exod. 25. appointed by God to be placed ouer the Arke : and by the Image of the brasen Serpent , in lyke sort appointed by God ( which as we reade in Iohn c. 3. was the figure of Christ . ) But to both theese the Iewes gaue a peculiar worship , as to things ordayned to religious vses : For how could they adore the Arke , but withall they must adore the Images of the Cherubin ? Or how could not the brasen Serpent but be worshipped by the Iewes : when it being seated in a high place by Gods command , did cure those , which locked vpon it ?

But now I here inferre , that if it were lawfull to worship the Images of Angells ( I euer meane , with that respect , due to conseciated things ) then by the same reason , it is lawfull to worship the Images of Saincts departed . And if the bras●n Serpent might be worshipped ( so long as this religious respect ( without any act of Idolatry ) was giuen to it ) as be●ring the Image of Christ in the forme of a Serpent : then may the Image of Christ be esteemed venerable . Ad hereto , that if the day of the Pascha be called , Holy , e e Exod. 12. in regard of it signification : and because it was dedicated to diuine Worship : And if the vestements of the Priests in the old Law , for the same reason , be tearmed , Holy : f f Exod. 28. And if the sepulcre or graue of Christ , be named , Glorious : g g Esay . 11. Yf also it be sayd in Exodus : h h Cap. 3. The place , where t 〈…〉 ou standest is holy : and this sayd by reason of the presence of the Angell , being then there : And if in the New Testament the Scripture be called : i i 2. Tim. cap. 3. Sacrae litterae holy letters : & this only by reason , that the letters are signes of holy things , expressed by them : And finally if to the name of IESVS we be commanded to bow k k Philip. 2. ( the sound of the word being to the care , as the picture is to the eye ) then by the same reason , why may we not be●re to the Images of Christ and his Saincts a religious respect , in regard of the persons , of whom they are made ?

Againe leauing diuine authorityes , and comming to force of reason . Yf a picture be capable of disgrace and iniurye , in regard of the person thearein represented ; then by the same reason a Picture may be capable of honour , respect , and reuerence . This inference is most demonstratiue . Now that a Picture is capable of disgrace or Contumely , is euident : For example , if a Subiect ( disloyalty affected to his Prince ) should deface , teare , or breake , or any otherwyse indecently handle his Princes picture , as by stabbing it with his knife , or the lyke : Or if some Athist ( denving all Scripture ) should betrample vnder his feete ( through scorne and malice ) the Bible it selfe ; Would not theese actions be seuerely chastized ? And might not the Pictures of the Prince , and the Bible , be said to haue suffered disgrace and indignity heareby , with reference to the wrong and indignitie committed against the Prince , and the sacred Scripture ? Then by the same reason , may the Pictures of Christ and his Saincts be affected with due religious respect aboue other things : in regard of Christ and his Saincts represented in them , of whom they are the Pictures .

Only heere we are to remember ( as aboue is often intimated ) that the respect we giue to the picture of Christ , is not that If any Authour seeme to say that the same worship is giuen to the Image which to the hrofit vpon eyther he meaneth that nothing is giuen to the Image but all to that which it representeth or that it is the same only in name not in nature or only Analogicè non vniuocè . supreme honour and veneration due to Christ : but only an inferiour religious respect , due to things , as they are directed to spirituall ends : and not otherwise . The verity of the former Point may be further confirmed , by our custome of standing barehead , and giuing reuerence to the Cloath of Estate , euen in the Kings absence . ●or as to it ( as representing our temporall Prince ) a ciuill honour may lawfully be giuen : so ( by the same ground ) a religious respect or honour may be ascrybed to the picture of Christ , who is our cheife King and Sauiour .

That this our Catholicke doctrine is warranted by the practice and authority of the auncient Fathers , is most euident ; And therefore I refer the Reader hearein to the cleare testimonyes of l l Lib. 2. de doctrina Christiana . c. 25. Austin , m m Serm. 10. in psalm . 118. Ambrose , n n In Leitu●●●a . Chrysostome , o o In vita Paulae . Basill , p p Quaest. 16. an Antiocum . Ierome , q q Cent. 4. cap. 10. col . 1080. Athanasius and others : whose whole sentences thereof were ouer longe to set downe . This point of the Fathers iudgment touching Images is so euident , that we find Learned Protestants to confesse no lesse of them : For thus w●yte the Centurists : Lactantius affirmeth many superstitious things , concerning (n) In ●ulianum , vt citat Adrianus ad Imperator . Christs Image : r r Cent. 10. c. 8. col. 850. And Bede erred in worshipping of Images . And Osiander s s In epiton . Cent. 6. p. 288. confssseth , that Gregory by his Indulgenses , established pilgrimages to Images . t t In his pageant of Popes . p. 24. & 27. Bale thus playnly wryteth : Leo allowed the worshipping of Images . Finally M. u u on the reuelat . p. 57. Symondus thus accordeth with Bale : Leo decreed , that reuerence should be giuen to Images . To all whose confessed testimonyes , we may adioyne the acknowledgments of Functius x x Lib. 7. commentar . at anno . Christi . 494. and Cedrenus , y y Cedrenus in compend . Histor. confessing ( as they prooue out of z z Nicephorus in hist. l. 16. c. 27. Nicephorus ) that Xenayas Persa was the first in auntient tymes , that impugned the due worship of Images .

That it is lawfull to haue Images in Churches , is taught ( as true and warrantable doctrine ) by diuers learned Protestants ; as by Cempnitius , a a Exam. part. 4. p. 14. & 33. by Luther , b b So doth Beza relate of Luther and Bren●ius in resp. ad Act. Colloq Montisb . part . altera in praefat. pag. 12. and Brentius , Iacobus c c In epitom . colloq . Montisb . pag. 39. Andreas &c.

But now I will conclude this discourse touching Images with a most authenticall and strange miracle , wrought by the Image of Christ , and recorded by d d Lib. 7. histor. cap. 14. Eusebius , e e In cap. 9. Mathaei . Theophilact , and f f Lib. 6. histor. cap. 20. Zozemene ; all auncient & graue Wryters ; whose authorityes herein if we reiect , we reiect by the same reason the proofe of all other things , recorded by auntient Historiographers .

It was this . The woman , whom our Sauiour cured of the bloody flux , caused to be made a brazen Image of Christ ; at the foote whereof did spring a strange hearb ; the which hearbe , after it did ascend so high , as to touch the scirt of the Image , it had vertue to cure all diseases . Which vertue ( no doubt ) God would not haue imparted to the Hearbe , but only in manifestation , that due respect might lawfully be giuen to the Image of Christ . And thus far , touching the Catholicke doctrine of Images .

Touching Prayer to Saincts .

TOuchinge Prayer to Saincts . I will deliuer the Catholicke doctryne thereof in certaine Propositions ; which Propositions may searue as certaine graduall stips or degrees of this Controuersye .

The first Proposition may be this . It is not lawfull to pray to Saincts , as authours or principall dispensours of diuine benefitts , to obtaine from them either grace or glorye , or the meanes of obtaining our Eternall felicitie ; much lesse , the Crawne of glory or heauen it selfe . Since in this sense to pray to them , were ( according to the iudgment of S. Austin a a Lib. de ciuitate Dei c. vlt. and all Catholicks ) to make Saincts , Gods . And therefore if at any time , the words directed to Saincts should sound otherwyse : as when we say : Our Lady healpe me &c. We are heare to insist in the sense , not in the naked words : That is , Our Lady healpe me by her intercession and prayers to her sonne ; and no otherwyse : Euen as we fynd , that S. Paule saith of hymselfe : b b Rom. 11. vt saluos facerem aliquos ex illis . If I may saue some of them : meaning , of the Gentills . And againe the sayd Apostle saith of hymselfe : To c c 1. Cor. 9. vt omnes racerē saluos . all Men I am become all things , that I might saue all : meaning , to saue all not as God : but only healping them and furthering their Saluation by his preaching to them , and by his prayers for them . Which words of the Apostle ( being truly vnderstoode ) may sear●e well to stop the Mouths of the Protestant Ministers , for their often mistaking and misinterpreting of the Catholicke Doctrine touching prayer to Saincts .

The second Proposition . Saincts are not our immediate Mediatours , by way of intercession with God ; But whatsoeuer they demande or obtayne of God for vs , they demaund and obtayne it , through Christ and his Merits . And according hearto we find , that all the Prayers of the Church ( which are made to Saincts ) end with this clause : Per Christum Dominum nostrum : For we willingly acknowledge , d d Ioh. 10. 14. that no Man commeth to the Father , by the Sonne ; And that their is but one Mediatour of Redemption : though all the Saincts may be tearmed our Mediatours , by way of Intercession .

The third Proposition . The Saincts , which reigue with Christ , do pray for vs , and this not only in generall , but in particular : That is , for particular Men , and for the particular Necessityes of the same Men. This is proued first , from those words in Ieremy : e e Cap. 15. If Moyses and Samuel shall stand before me , my Soule is not towards this People . From whence it is inferred , that Moyses and Samuel ( then being dead ) might and were accustomed to pray for the People of Israel .

Secondly , the same is proued from the Example of Angells , who do pray for vs , and haue a care of vs in particular , as appeareth out of seuerall passages of f f Toby . 12. Zach. 1. Math. 18. Apoc. 8. Scripture . But if the Angells do pray for vs , then much more Saincts ; seing so far forth , as appertayneth to this function , nothing is wanting to the Saincts in Heauen , which Angells haue : for they are endued with Intelligence or Vnderstanding , and with Will ; they are euer in the presence of God ; they loue vs vehemently ; and finally they g g Luc. 20. are equall euen with Angells : Besids , some priuiledges they haue in this point , which are wanting in Angells : to wit , that Saincts are more conioyned and vnited members of the body of the Church ; and that they haue tryed our dangers and Miseries , which Angells haue not .

Thirdly , the former Proposition is proued from the many apparitions of Saincts , which haue euidently testified , that they do pray for vs euen in particular . Of diuers such particular Apparitions , See h h Lib. hist. c. 5. Eusebius , i i Decura pro mortuis . Austin , k k Orat. de Sancto Manante . Basill , l l Orat. 1. in Iulianum . Gregory Nazianzene , m m In vita Gre●orij ueo 〈…〉 ●a●●ens . Gregory Nyslene , and n n Lib. 5. histor. c. 24. Theodoret ; all which testimonyes of so auncient and reuerend Fathers to reiect , touching matter of fact , by answearing , that all such relations are fabulous , is in effect ( and by necessarie inference ) to take away all authority of Ecclesiasticall and humane Historyes .

The fourth and last Proposition . Saincts and Angells are religiously and profitably inuoked and prayed vnto , by liuing Men. This is proued . First , Wee reade , that Iacob blessing the sonns of Ioseph , thus saith : The o o Genes. ●8 . Angell , which hath deliured me from all Euill , blesse these Children ; wheare we see , that Iacob expressly inuoketh these Angell . Againe , we reade thus in Iob. Call , p p Cap. 5. if any will answeare thee , and turne to some of the Saincts : Wheare by the word : Saincts , he meaneth Angells , according to the exposition of Sainct Austin q q In anno●at . in Iob. Secondly , this last Proposition is proued from that , that in both the Testaments the Liuing were inuoked and prayed vnto by liuing ; as in the first Booke of the Kings , and in the last of Iob. Cap. 7. In lyke sort in the Epistle to the Romans S. Pauli thus saith : s s Cap. 15. Brethren I beseach you , that you all healpe me in your prayers for me to God . Which Kynd of prayer the Apostle vseth in the Epistle to the t t 6. Ephesians ; in the first to the u u 5. Thessalonians , in the second x x 3. to the Thessalonians , in his epistle to the y y 4. Colossians , & to the z z 13. Hebrewes : So familiar and vsuall was this to S. Paull . Therefore from hence I conclude , that now it is lawfull to inuoke and pray to the said Men ; being now Saincts , and raigning with Christ . This Inference is most necessarye & demonstratiue . For if it be not now lawfull to pray to them , It is either because the Saincts now in Heauen will not healpe vs with their intercession to God ; But this is not so , seing the Saincts in Heauen enioye greater Charity , then they had heare vpon earth : Or els in that the Saincts cannot healpe vs with their prayers : And this lesse true : for if they could afore healpe vs with their prayers , they being then but Pilgrims ; much more now , they being arryued into their Country . Or els because they do not know , what we pray or demaund of them : But this is false : for looke from whence the Angells do know the Conuersion of sinners , for which they so much reioyce in Heauen , ( as we reade in S. a a Cap. 〈◊〉 . Luke ) from the same source or wellspring of knowledge the Saincts do know our prayers ; Or lastly , because we offer iniury to God and Christ , if we pray to any other , then to him alone ; But this is the least of all true , seing by the same reason , it should not be lawfull for vs to pray to the liuing , that they would pray for vs ; And then consequently Saint Paul should haue beene most iniurious to God and Christ , in praying to the Romans , the Ephesians , the Thessalonians , the Colossians and the Hebrews , to pray for him to God . Therefore , as it is no iniury , but an honour to Kings , when their friends are honored , and Embassadours are sent to them ; Euen so heere there is no iniury done to God , but honour , when the Saincts of God are honored by praying vnto them ; not as to Gods , but as to the friends of God : since otherwise it would follow , that he should commit ( 〈◊〉 ) Serm. Euang. de sanctissima Deipara . an iniury to God ( as is aboue sayd ) who should desire & entreate the prayers of the liuing . This argument is vnanswerable , and the rather : since the Saincts in Heauen are members of the same Church , of which the liuing are : they also wholy relye vpon the same intercession of Christ with the liuing : for what they desire for vs , that they desyre of God , through the merits of our Sauiour Christ .

This doctrine of Inuocation of Saincts is further prooued from seuerall auncient Councells : whose places for greater breuity I referre the Reader to ▪ As to the Epistle of the Bishops of Europe , written to Leo the Emperour , which epistle is adioyned to the Councell of Calcedon , the Councell of Chalcedon b b Act. 11. it selfe , the sixt c c Act. 7. generall councell , the seauenth d d Act. 6. generall councell , besides diuers others . That the auncient Fathers of the Primatiue Church beleiued & practized this doctrine of praying to Saincts , is euident from the references herein the margent . See then hereof Dionisius e e Cap. 7. Eccles. Hierarch . Areopagita , Ireneus , f f Lib. 5. contra Haeres . vltra medium . Eusebius , g g Lib. 13 praeparat . Euang. c. 7 Athanasius , (h) Basill , i i Orat. in 40. Martyres . Chrysostome , k k Homil. 66. ad Populum . Gregory l l Orat. in Sanctum Theodorum Nyssene , Hilary , m m In psal. 129. Ambrose , n n Lib. de Viduis vltra med . Ierome , o o In epitaph . Paulae . Austin , p p Tract. 84. in Iohannem . and others . This point of the Fathers iudgment and practize herein is so manifest , as that we fynd it to be thus confessed of them , by the learned Protestants . M. Fulke thus sayth : r r D. Fulke in his Reioinde● to Bristow . I confesse , that Ambrose , Austin , and Ierome did hould Inuocation of Saincts to be lawfull . The sayd D. Fulke doth further thus write : In s s D. Fulk agaynst the Rhenish Test . in 2. Petr. c. 1. Nazianzen , Basill , and Chrysostome is mention of Inuocation of Saincts . And yet more fully the same D. thus confesseth : Many t t D. Fulk agaynst the Rhenish Test . vbi supra . of the auncient Fathers did hould , that the Saincts departed do pray for vs . In which generall condemnation of the Fathers herein D. Whitguift ( the Archbishop of Canterbury ) thus conspireth with the foresayd D. Fulke : u u In his defence agaynst the reply of Cart. wright . p. 472. Almost all the Bishopps and Wryters of the Greeke Church and Latin also , for the most part , were spotted with the doctrine of Inuocation of Saincts , and such like points . To conclude D. Couell thus 〈…〉 peth with the former Protestants , saying : x x In his examinat . p. 120. Diuers both of the Greeke and Latin Church , were spotted with the errour , about the Inuocation of Saincts .

Now that the Protestants do not only confesse the auncient Fathers iudgment hearein ; but that also diuers of them do beleiue the doctrine 〈◊〉 selfe to be true , is no lesse cleare : For we find Luther hymselfe thus to wryte : De y y In purgat . quorundam articul . intercessione diuorum , cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio , Sanctos a nobis hon●randos esse & inuocando● . With whom agree z z In orat . 1. Chry●ost . de Inuentio & maximo . O●colampadius , a a Act. mon. p. 1312. Latimer , and diuers b b See H●fferenfetus in loc. theol l. 3. stat 4. Protestants in Polonia .

Now I will end this poynt , in setting the iudgment of learned c c Ierome epist. 2 cotra V 〈…〉 l. Gregory . lib. 11. moral . cap. 13. 16. Fathers and Catholicks , touching the manner how Saincts do heare out prayers . Which is , that Saincts as being in Heauen , euen from their first beginning of their beatitude and happines , do see all things in God ( as in a cleare glasse ) which belong vnto them any way , according to that : Quid * * Gregory vbi supra est , quod ibi n●sciunt , qui scie tem om●●a sciunt ? And therefore they see and heare our prayers , directed vnto them . And hence it is , that the holy Soules before our Sauiours Incarnation and Ascention , being in Ly●bus Patrum , were not prayed vnto ; because they then not being in Heauen , could not heare the prayer of the liuing made to them ; And therefore no maruayle , if neither in the old Testament nor in the new , we find no expresse examples of prayer made to Saincts . To the former maner , how saincts do see the actions of the liuing , and do heare their prayers , I may adioyne an other manner of hearing than allowed & taught by S. d d Lib. de cura pro mortuis c. 15. Austin & other e e Nazianzene orat . fun . in sororem Gorg. Fathers . Which is , that God out of his speciall fauour and loue to his Saincts , doth open and reueale to them , the particular states and prayer of their friends , yet liuing in the World .

Now how agreable it is to all force of Reason , that Saincts in Heauen should know the affayres of their liuing friends , is seuerall wayes proued . First , because the f f Luc. 15. Angells in Heauen reioyce at the conuertion of a sinne● : Therefore the Angells know the particular states of liuing Men. But if the Angells do , then by the same Reason the Saincts doe : seeing so far as concerne this poynt , theare is no difference betweene the Angells and the Saincts .

Secondly , the Nature of their beatitude requireth such knowledge of the affayres of their liuing friends . For seeing their Happynes is a mayne Ocean of all ioyes ( no kind of happines being to them wanting , which is requisite for them to haue ) therefore it followeth , that for their greature measure of their felicity , they are to haue notice of the miseryes , wants , & prayers of their liuing friends . And this the rather , seing Nature is not abolished , but betered and perfected by grace ; from whence we may gather , that the Saincts in heauen do not abandon & reiect the cares & states of their liuing friends ; but do still retayne ( though with greater perfection ) their former naturall desire , to know & releiue the state of their said friends .

Thirdly , This priuiledge of Saincts , knowing the state , and hearning the prayers of the liuing , best sorteth to the nobility and worth of their beatificall and happy Vision of God . For if God hath honored diuers of his friends ( whyles they liued in this world ) with the guyft of Prophecy ; as he did Daniell , Ezechiel , Esay , Dauid , and many others , wheareby diuers of them reuealed many things to come , meerely depending of Mans freewill ( and therefore not forseene , in their causes ) as also did tell ( at the very tyme they were donne ) things donne in places far distant and remote from them . How can it then otherwyse be , but that his diuine Maiesty is most willing to communicate vnto his Saincts the state and prayers of the liuing ? To the force of which Reason S. Austin subscribeth in theese words : Yf the Prophet Elizaeus ( absent in body ) (a) Lib. 22. de ciuitat . Dei c. 29. did see the brybe his seruant Geizi did take of N●man syrus &c. How much more in that spirituall bodye , shall Saincts see all things &c. When God shal be All in all , vnto vs ?

Lastly , the damned spirits and deuills , ( being far absent from their Witches , southsayers , and coniurers ) do neuerthelesse heare their inuocations and coniurations : As is warranted by all Experience . Shall any Man then thinke , that the blessed Saincts of Heauen , are depryued of hearing the prayers and intercessions , which the faythfull heare vpon Earth , do make vnto them ? since otherwyse it would follow , that spirituall substances by their losing of Heauen ( I meane , the deuills by their fall ) did obtayne greater prerogatiues and excellencye , then the soules of the Saincts do by gayning and ascending vp to Heauen : an absurdity incompatible with the goodnes , wisdome , and Charity of God . And thus much , touching the doctryne of Prayer to Saincts .

The Catholicke doctrine touching Iustification by works , Merit of works , and Works of Supererogation .

TOuching Iustification by Works , the Catholicks teach , as followeth .

Iustification , a a Bellar. de 〈…〉 cat . l. 4. c. 10. wheareby a Man being afore wicked , and the Sonne of Wrath , is become the Sonne of God , is wrought by the healpe of Gods grace ( without any meritte of works on our syde ) and by the spirit of fayth and Charity , infused by God in vs , in the very Act of our Iustification . Thus our Aduersaries may see , that we do not ascribe our first Iustification to any of our works at all ; though they most wrongfully traduce vs to the contrary ; For we willingly acknowledge those words of the Apostle : It b b Rom. 9. is not of the willer , or of the runner ; but of God , who sheweth Mercy .

Secondly , the Catholicks teach , that after a Man iustifyed ( being of wicked become good ) he may encrease his first iustification by works : That is , he being already made iust , by Gods grace and mercy , may by his works become more Iust : Which works are not those , which are performed by the force of Nature ( as the Pelagians did teach , and the Protestants do falsly charge the Catholicks ) but as they are performed by the spirit and grace of God ; and as they receaue their force & vertue from our Sauiours Passion .

Concerning the merit of Works more particularly , the Catholicks teach , as followeth ; whose doctrine herein ( for greater perspicuity ) I will set downe in certaine propositions ; Which propositions do contayne certaine condicions , necessarily requyred , that Works may merit .

The first proposition is this . That works may merit , it is requyred , that the partye ( who worketh ) be in state of grace , and an adopted Child of God . Thus we exclude all works from meriting , which are performed by one , who is not in state of grace ; that is , who wanteth true fayth , true hope , true charity : for such Works are performed by force of Nature only , & not by force of Gods grace .

The second proposition : That works do merit , a free & liber all promise or Couenant of God is necessary ; by which his promise of reward made vnto good Works , God in a manner obligeth himselfe , to reward good works , according to his promises . Heere our Aduersary may see , that we willingly confesse , that no works of ours ( of themselues ) can merit , as we abstract from them the promisse of God : for without this promisse and Couenant of God , made out o● his most mercifull bounty to remunerate good works , we do willingly say with the Apostle : The c c Rom. 8. passions of this life are not condigne , to the glory to come , that shal be reuealed vnto vs .

The third proposition . That Works do merit , it is ( according to the most probable opinion ) necessarily requyred , that they cheifly preceede from actually or virtually Charity , & loue towards God : That is , that they be vndertaken cheifly and primatiuely for the honour and loue we beare to God . From whence it followeth , that no works , which are not seasoned with this condic●on of Charity in God , but haue to themselues only peculiar and lesse principall ends , c 〈…〉 merit .

The fourth and last proposition , which is implicitly included in the former Propositions . That Works do merit , they must take their worth and dignity from the 〈…〉 ritis of our Sauiours Passion ; and from thence receaue ( as it were ) a new tincture and dye . Thus we see , that originally and principally it is Christs meri●ts , which do merit for vs ; and that our works are but once of the meanes , whereby we apply Christs merit●s vnto vs .

That the doctrine here set downe touching merit of works is sutable to the doctrine of the Catholicke Roman Church , is euident euen from the authority of the Councell d d Sess. 6. c. vl● . of Trent , where we thus reade : To them , who worke well to the end of their life , and do hope in God , eternall life is giuen , both as a grace , and fauour mercifully promised to the Sonns of God , through the meritts of Christ Iesus ; as also as a reward , proceeding from the promisse of the same God , faythfully to be giuen to their good Works and Meritts &c. Thus the Councell .

The certainty of this doctrine of merit of works receaueth it cheife proofe from the holy Scripture ; and this from the testimonyes of Scripture of seuerall kinds . First , then from those places , where eternall life is called Merces , a wage or reward . As Mathew * * Math. 5. Reioyce , for your reward is great in Heauen . Againe , e e Math. 20. Call the workemen , and pay them their hyre , besides diuers others of like nature . Secondly , from those places , wherein a heauenly reward is promised to men , according to the measure & proportion of their Works ; as where it is said : The f f v● . Matth. 16. Sonne of Man shall come in the glory of his Father , and shall render to eueryone , secundum opera sua , according to his works . In like sort it is said : g g Rom. 〈◊〉 . God will render to euery one according to his works : besides many other like places , h h vz. psalm . 65. Luc. 6. 1. Cor 3. Galat. 6. Apocal , vlt. here omitted .

Thirdly , from those testimonyes of Scripture , which expresse the reason , that works are the cause , why eternall life is giuen ; thus we read : i i Math. 25. Come you blessed of my Father , possesse the Kingdome prepared for you ; es 〈…〉 iui enim , & dedisti mihi manducare , for I was hungry , and you gaue me to eate . Againe in the same place : Quia in pauca fuisti &c. Because thou hast been faithfull ouer few things , I will place thee ouer many things ; enter into , the ioy of thy ●ord . And in the Apocalyps : k k Cap. 7. These are they , which are come out of great tribulation &c. ideo sunt ante thro●um Dei , therefore they are before the throne of God . In all which places the particles : Enim , Qui● , Ideo , are causases ; that is implying our shewing the reason and cause of a thing .

Fourthly , from those texts , in which a reward is promised to good Works euen by force of Iustice ; According hereto we reade : l l Hebr. 6. God is not vniust , that he should forget your worke . As also that : m m Apoc. 2. be thou faythfull euen vnto death , and I will giue thee the Crowne of life . See of this nature other texts n n 2. Thes. 1. 2. Tim. 4. Iacob . 1. quoted in the margent .

Fiftly , and lastly , from those passages , wherein there is mention made of dignity or worth ; As where we reade : The x x Luc. 10. workeman is worthy his wage . Agayne : vt y y 2 Thes. 1. digni habeamini regno Dei &c. That you may be had worthy the Kingdome of God , for which you suffer . See the like texts z z Sapient . 3. Luc. 20. Apoc. 3. noted in the margent .

That the auncient Fathers mantayned the doctrine of merit of works : see for greater breuity a a Epist. ad Rom. Ignatius , b b Lib. 4. aduersus Haeres . c. 72. Ireneus , c c Lib. de Spirit Sanct. cap. 24. Basill , d d Homil. 4. de Lazero . Chrysostome , e e Orat. in Sanct. Baptism . Nazianz , f f Orat. 1. de amandis pauperibus . Nyssene , g g De vnitat . Eccles. Cyprian , h h Lib. 1. de officijs , cap. 15. Ambrose , i i Epist. 103. ad Sixtum . Austin , k k Aduersi Iouinianum prop● finem . Ierome .

The iudgment of the auncient Fathers touching merit of works is discouered ( besides by their owne testimonyes ) euen from the acknowledgment of the Protestants . For first we find D Humfrey to confesse in this s 〈…〉 rt : l l Iesuitism . part. 2. p. 530. Ireneus , Clemens , and others ( called Apostolicall ) haue in their wrytings merit of Works . In like sort the Centurists thus charge Chrysostome : m m Cent 5. col. 1178. Chrysostome handleth impurely the doctrine of iustification , and attributeth merit to works . They also t 〈…〉 censure Origen n n Cent. 3. col. 265. Origen made works the cause of our iustification . o o In Confess . Wittenberg . Brentius in like sort saith , that Austin taught assiance in mans merits , towards remission of Sinns .

Luther styleth Ierome , Ambrose , Austin , and others Iustice p p Luth. in Galat. cap. 4 the latin word by him need is Iustiliarij Workers of the old Papacy . D. Whitakers thus wryteth of the age of Cyprian : q q Contra Camp. rat. 5. Not only Cyprian , but almost all the most holy Fathers of that tyme were in that errour , as thinking so to ●ay the payne due to sinne , and to satisfy Gods iustice . D. Whitguift ( as afore of praying to Saincts , so ) of merit of works thus confesseth : r r In his defence against the reply of Cartwright pag. 472. & 473. Almost all the Bishopps and Wryters of the greeke Church and Latin also , were spotted with doctrine of merit . s s Vpon the Apocalyps ser 87. Bullenger confesseth the great antiquity of the doctrine of merit in these words : The doctrine of Merit , satisfaction , and iustification of works , did incontinently after the Apostles tyme lay their first foundation . To conclude this point M. Wotton ( no obscure Protestant ) reiecteth the authority of Ignetius ( the Apostles scholar ) touching merit of works in this sort : t t In his defence of M. Parkins p. 340. I say plainly , this Mans testimony is nothing worth ; because he was of little iudgment in Diuinity . Thus farre , touching our Aduersary acknowledgments of the Fathers iudgment herein .

Now that some learned Protestants do teach and beleiue the doctrine of Merit of Works , to be true and Orthodoxall doctrine , is no lesse euident , then the former point . For it is taught , as true doctrine by the Publike u u Pag. 495. & 273. Confessions in their Harmony : by M. x x Lib. 5. eccles. pol. sect. 72. p. ●08 . Hooker , by y y In loc ●om de bonis operib . circu medium . Melanct●on , and by Spandeburge z z In Margarit . Theolog. p. 48. & 50. the Protestant .

To the former doctrine of merit of Works , I will adioyne the doctryne touching works of Supererogation ; Which doctrine is greatly exagirated and depraued by many Protestants ; who are not ashamed to traduce the Catholicks , and to diuulge both by penne and in Pulpit , that the Catholicks do hould , that their works can do more , then merit Heauen . But this is the Protestant● 〈…〉 lumny ; since the Catholicks do not hould or beleiue any such thing . Therefore I will sette downe the true definition of an Euangelical Counsell distinguished from a Precept ; seing vpon Euangelicall Counsells works of Supererogation are grounded .

An Euangelicall Counsell of Perfection , is called any good Worke , Which is not commanded by Christ ▪ but only commended by him , and poynted on to vs by hym ; As the Vowe of Chastity of Pouerty , of Obedience ; and diuers other good Works , not commanded by God .

It differeth from a Precept . First , because the subiect of a Precept is more facill and easy , then that of a Councell ; Secondly in that a Counsel doth include in it the Performance of a Precept , and something more then a Precept ; Thirdly , in that Precepts are common to all Men to performe , Counsells are not so ; Fourthly , Precepts of their owne nature do oblige Men to their performance ; Counsells are in the choyce of one , to performe or not performe ; Lastly Precepts , being obserued are rewarded ; being not obserued , the transgression is punished : Whereas Counsells , being obserued and kept haue a greater reward ; being not kept , no punishment followeth .

Thus far touching the definition of an Euangelicall Counsell : Which in other words may be also thus defined : An Euangelical Counsell is any such good Worke of high Perfection , to the performance whereof we are not bownd , as that we sinne in not doing of it .

Now whereas it is commonly obiected against the doctrine of Euangelicall Councells , That we are so obbliged to God , as that we cannot euer do more , then we ought to do : It is therefore heare to be conceaued , that if we consider Gods benefitts bestowed vpon vs , we willingly acknowledge , that Man can not do more good , then he ought : no not the thousand part of that , he ought to do , in that Man cannot render or retaliate any thing of equall valew and worth to Gods benefitts .

Neuerthelesse Yf we consider the Law and Commande imposed by God vpon vs ; then man may be sayd to do more , then indeede he is obliged by Gods Law to do . For although Man cannot exceede or equall Gods benefits with his owne works : yet he is not become guilty hearby : seing Men is not obliged to performe more , then that only , which God commaundeth .

Euangelicall Councells take the cheife and first proufe from sacred Scripture : As wheare it is said : a a Math. 19. There are certaine Eunuchs who haue gelded themselfs for the Kyngdome of Heauen : Which place is expounded of the Euangelicall Counsell of Chastity , by b b Lib. de habitu virginum . Cyprian , c c In hunclocum . Chrysostome , d d De sancta virginitat . c. 24. Austin , and others .

A second text ( to omit diuers others for breuity ) is that where our Sauiour sayth to the yong Man : e e Math. 19. Yf thou wilt be perfect , go , and sell all that thou hast , and giue it to the poore , and thou shalt haue treasure in heauen : Which text is interpreted of the Euangelicall Counsell of pouerty , by S. f f De viduis vltra medium . Ambrose , S. g g Lib. contra vigilant . Ierome , and S h h Epist. 89. quaest. 4. Austin .

The foresayd doctrine is further confirmed by the authority of the auncient Fathers : For b 〈…〉 es their expositions of the foresaid places of Scripture , this doctrine is further taught by i i In c. 5. ad Rom. Origen , k k Lib. de humanitate verbi vltra med . Athanasius , l l Lib. de virginit . vlt. med . Basil , m m Homil. 8. de Penit . Chrysostome , n n Orat. in Iulian. vltra medium . Nazianzene , o o De hábitu vir●inum vltra medium . Cyprian , p p Lib. de ●●duis Ambrose , q q Lib. contra Iouinianum . Ierome , and finally by r r Lib. de virginitate Sancta . cap. 30. Austin , who speaking of Precepts and Counsells , vseth the very Word : Supererogation , thus saying of precepts and Counsells : Dominus debitum imperat nobis : in his autem si quid amplius supererogaueritis , in reddendo reddet nobis .

The doctrine of Euangelicall Councells is warranted and taught ( besydes by the former auncient fathers of the Primatiue Church euen by diuers learned Protestants .

According hearto we find it is mantayned for true doctryne , by s s Eccles. pol lib. 3. sect. 8. pag. 140. M. Hooker , by D. t t In his defence of M Hooker art 8. pag. 49 50. 51. 52. Co●ell , and by u u In Sacra 4. Euangel. in Math. c. 19. Bucer , And thus f●r breifly of Iustification by Works , of merit of Works , and of works of Supererogation .

The Catholicke Doctrine , touching Indulgences .

THe Vi●ulency of Protestants against the doctrine of Indulgences is most remarkable . Wherefore for their better conceauing of the state of this Question or Indulgences , this following in the Catholicke Doctrine .

First , that Mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession ; so far forth only , as concerneth the guilt or offence of God and the punishment of eternall damnation ; yet so , that this eternall punishment by Gods Mercy is turned into temporall punishment ; as appeareth by the example of Dauid : Who ( though the eternall punishment due to the guilt of his sinns was for giuen ) yet was punished temporally by the death of his Sonne : For these are the words in Scripture after his sinne was forgiuen : a a 2 Reg. c. 12. Because thou hast caused the name of God to be blasphemed , the Child , that is borne to th●e , shall dye . In lyke sort , Dauids sinne in numberring his People , being remitted him ; yet was he put to chuse b b Reg. 〈◊〉 24. for his temporall punishment and satisfaction , either Warre , Famine , or Pestilence .

Now the guilt of eternall damnation for sinne being remitted , there remaineth a temporall punishment . And this temporall punishment ( thus reserued ) is the sole subiect of Indulgences . Therefore an Indulgence ( as heare the word is taken ) is a mercifull relaxation or remission of temporall punishment , due for sinne , by applying the super abundant satisfaction of Christ , after the sinne it selfe and guilt of eternall damnation due to mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession ; or for want thereof by perfect Contrition .

The ground and foundation of Indulgencs is cheifly the treasury and satisfaction of Christs death , which is of that infinity greate valew an pryce ( seeing euery drop of his bloud was able to redeeme a thousands Worlds , in regard of his Diuinity being vnited to his Humanity ) as that it can ueuer be exhausted . For we reade : that c c 1. Cor. 1. Christ dyed for all ; Also that d d 1. Iohn . 〈◊〉 . 2. Christ is apropitiation for our sinns ; and not for our sinns only , but for the Sinns of the whole World .

But it is certaine , that the pryce of Christs death was not actually applyed to all Men hitherto liuing ; since then it would follow , that all Men ( which hitherto haue liued ) should haue bene saued .

Therefore it followeth , that theare yet remayneth a greate abundance of the pryce of Christ passion ( if it were not in finite , as indeede it is ) to be applyed and still will remaine .

The dispenser of this treasury of the Church is the Heade of Christs Church , who hath power to apply this treasury for the absoluing of Men from their temporall punishment , due to their Sinns , allready remitted by Sacramentall Confession , according to the authority geuen him in those words : Whatsoeuer thou losest vpon earth , shal be losed in Heauen ; with which Math. 16. place accord other places f f Math. 18. Iohn . 20. of the Euangelists . Now these words being generall , they do extend as well to the punishment due for sinne , as to the sinne itselfe ; seing the punishment is as remissible , as the Sinne ; And as to the one are applyed Christs Meritts , so to the other Christs ●atisfactions .

The Cause , why any Indulgence is granted to any Man , ought to be iust and reasonable ( or otherwyse the Indulgence granted is of no valew ) for seing the Pope is not Lord of this spirituall treasure of the Church , but only the distributer thereof therefore this distribution he cannot make without a iust , reasonable , and lawfull Cause .

The Partie receauing the benefit of an Indulgence ought ( at the tyme of receauing it ) to be in state of grace ( since otherwise he can reape no benefit by any Indulgence ) to which state he is brought by true Contrition of his former Sinns , although not perhaps forgeuen ( in respect of eternall damnation ) in the Sacrament of Confession : And heare is discouered the trissling vanity & falshood of our Aduersaries : in affirming , that the Catholicks teach , that the Pope can giue ( a fore hand ) an Indulgence to any Man for any sinne , which hereafter is to be committed . Since wee see , that the obiect of an Indulgence is the temporall punishment only ( and not the punishment of damnation ) and this for a sinne allready committed ( and not hereafter to be committed ) of which a Man being in state of grace ( and consequently not one , who beareth a present resolution to commit any sinne hereafter ) is remitted by his Indulgence ; applyed to hym , vpon iust and reasonable Causes .

We are further heare to admonish , that the Partie receauing an Indulgence , ought to performe entyrely and precisly all things enioyned hym by his Indulgence ; Whether it be prayer , Alms , fasting &c. According to that vsuall saying : Indulgentia tantum valent , quantum sonant .

Wheare it is taught , that the Merits and suffrings of some greate Saincts as of our Blessed Lady , S , Iohn Baptiste , and some others , do concurre to the encrease of this spirituall Treasure of the Church ( which is the foundation of Indulgences ) this is to be vnderstood in this sense ; to wit , that because their Meritts , works , and sufferings haue their vertue and valew only from the Meritts of our Sauiours Passion : And that they onely concurre to the increase of the treasure as they depend vpon the meritts of Christ therefore it may be truly said , that primatiuely and Originally only the Meritts and Passion of Christ , do make this spirituall treasure , from whence Indulgences do flowe .

Ad hearto , that if S. Paule might truly say in a researued sense : Ad imple ea , quae desunt passionum Christi , in earne mea , (g) Colo● . 1. pro corpor●●ius , quod est Ecclesia I do fullfill those things , that do want of the passion of Christ , in my flesh , for his body , which is the Church ( words , which if any Catholicke should haue auerred of any one Sainct , without the warrant of the Apostle , he should haue bene mighrely calumn●ated and wronged by the Protestants ) then followeth it , that the afflictions and sufferings of S. Paule ( as receauing their force from Christs Passion ) may be said without any indignitie to Christ , to encreasse this spirituall treasure of the Church . For these former words do not import , that there was any defect in the Passion of Christ ; but that the sufferings of S. Paule , did fulfill the plenitude of Christ his Passion , and his members for the benefit of those , to whom they are to be communicated For as Christ , being the inuisible and supreme heade of his Church , doth with his Church , make but one mysticall body ; so his sufferings with the sufferings of his members ( receauing all their force and efficacy from the Passion of Christ ) do make ( as S. h h In psal. 61. Austin affirmeth ) one common and publ●ke We●le , or one publike treasure . And according hereto it is , that we fynd , offered S. Paules afflictions sometymes for the i i Colos. 1. Colossians at other times for the Corinthians k k Cor. 2. Cor. 1. : he desiring at one tyme to dye for the Romans l l Row . 9. ; at an other tyme , to become an A●athem● for them .

To proceede further . The Old Testament it selfe warranteth this mutuall communication of one suffering for an other ; And in this sense it is said of Gods Church ( there entituled Ierusalem , that it is , m m Psal. ●21 . as a Citty , whose participationes in it selfe . That is : As in a publicke Citty there is a generall trafficke , for the publicke benefit of euery particular Citizen ; So in the Citty of God ( which is his Church ) there is a communion or participation of all the spirituall works thereof , to the generall benefit and behoo●e of eich particular Man . And vpon this ground it is , that Dauid said ( in respect of the communication of one Mans sufferings for an other ) n n Psalm . 218. I am made partaker of all , that feare the Lord .

Now this former doctrine , touching the sufferings of one to be applyed to an other , being the vndoubted , true , and auncient doctrine of Christ Church ( vpon which ground Indulgances are builded ) it from hence appeareth , how idly and impertin●ntly our aduersaryes do vrge some texts of Scripture to the contrary ; As where it is sayd : The o o Ezech 18. soule , which sinneth , ●●en that shall dye . And againe : p p Ad Galat 6. Euery one shall be are his owne burden . And more : No q q Psalm . 49. Man c●● redeeme his brother , or giue a price to God for him . All which texts are spoken of the state of eternall damnation , ( and therefore impertinently alledged ) in which state a Man depar●eth out of this World ; but they are not spoken of temporall punishment only , which is reserued , after the guilt of eternall damnation is remitted ; which is the point here controuerted .

If it be vrged against this doctrine , that the actions of the Saincts , deceased , were meritts to themselues ; and therefore cannot be applyed , as satisfactions for others . ●o this I answere , that one and the same action may be ( in a different respect ) both meritorious , and satisfactory ; Meritorious , as it proceedeth from supernaturall grace ; satisfactory , as it is performed with payne , labour and difficulty ; According hereto we reade in Scripture , that alme●deeds do both merit , and satisfy for sinne : For thus we reade : r r Marc. 9 Whosoeuer shall giue in my name a cup of cold water , &c. he shall not loose his reward . Here is merit . We also reade of Alme●deeds s s Iob 4. in this sort : Almesdeeds deliuer vs from sinne and death ; and againe : As t t Eccles. 3. water quencheth the fire , so Almesdeeds extinguish sinne . Here is satisfaction . Here also we are to concea●e , that though the same action may be meritorious and satisfactory ; yet a man meriteth only for himselfe , & not for others : but satisfy he may both for himselfe , and for others : only Christ ( our Sauiour ) hath merited both grace and glory for vs all , and also hath satisfyed for the sinnes of all Men , Yet the worth and price of his merites we can apply only to ourselues , ( by our meritorious actions ) and not deriue it to any other ; but the benefit of his satisfaction we may deriue ( by our owne satisfactory works ) not only to our selues , but also to others .

Where it is vulgarly objected , that Iuduigences are oftentymes granted for more thousands of years , then the World or Purgatory are like to endure and continue ; And that therefore they are ridiculously and foolishly granted . I answere , this argument proceedeth from meere Ignorance . For heere the yeres are not to be vnderstood of the yeres or dayes of penall satisfaction , which are to be imposed in Purgatory ; but of the number of yeres , which were more or lesse in number proportioned ( according to the diuersity of the crime ) by the Canonicall Decrees of the Church . And here we are further to know , that God in the space and compasse of an houre or some such short time , may by the bitter paynes of Purgatory expiate that , which ( in this life ) a remisse and slow penance or satisfaction would scarce redeeme in the compasse of many yeres .

Now touching the antiquity of Indulgences ; we fynd them practized by S. Paul , who thus sayth of the incestuous person : Whom u u 2. Cor. 2. you haue pardoned , I also pardon : for that which I haue pardoned , in the Person of Christ , for you I haue done it , that we be not circumuented of Satan . Here now we are to remember , that the incestuous person ( to whom the Indulgence was heere giuen ) being in great contrition and sorrow for his sinne , was excommunicated by S. Paul , who at the request of the Corinthians did release him of his excommunication , for feare he might faule into dispayre . Now in this example , we find all things necessary to an Indulgence or Pardon . As first , the authority of the granter of the pardon ; to wit , S. Paul , who affirmes to do it , in the person of Christ . Secondly , state of grace in the Receauer of the Indulgence ; as appeareth by his Contrition and sorrow for his sinne committed . Thirdly , the temporall punishment remitted ; to wit , his Excommunication . Lastly , a iust & sufficient cause for giuing this Indulgence or Pardon : Which was , lest the offendour should faule into dispayre , or be ouerplunged in sorrow .

After the Apostles tymes , we fynd that the Bishops of the Primatiue Church gaue pardons and Indulgences to many : and this was done by the mediation of Confessours or designed Martyrs , as is witnessed by x x Lib. ad Martyr . Tertullian & y y Cyprian . epist. 13. 14. 15. & serm. vlt. de Lapsis . Cyprian .

We also find , that Pardons and Indulgences were giuen by sundry ●●opes in other ages : as by z z Luggerus epist. de S. Swiberto . apud Surium . Leo the third , by a a Thom , in 4. sentent dis. 20. q. 1. art. 3. Gregory the Great , by b b Anton. 2. part . histor. tit. 16 , cap. 1. Vrban the second , by c c Abbas Vlperg . in Chronic. Innocentius the third , by Paschalis the first , and by others . All which dispensed and distributed out of the common treasure of the Church .

Besides the former authorityes , the doctrine and vse of Indulgencs is warranted by Councells , both Generall and Prouinciall . To wit , the first Councel of d d Can. 11. Nice , the Councell of e e Can 9. Ancyran , the Councell of Leodice , f f Can. 2. the Councell of Claramontane , the Councell of Lateran , of Vienna , of Constance and of Trente : as appeareth in the Councells themselfs . Now if the former auncient Popes and Fathers , as also these alledged Councells should erre in the doctrine of Indulgences , then two mayne absurdityes should follow ; first , that the Primatiue Church should most fouly erre in a dogmaticall poynt of fayth ; contrary to the iudgment of the more sober & Leared Protestants , among whom I will ( for breuity ) heare set downe the iudgment only of Kempnitius , touch●ng the Primatiue Church , who thus saith : g g Cempnit . in his Examen . Concil. Trident. parr . 1. pag. 74. I dowbt not , but the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles and Apostolicall Men : not only the text of Scripture , but also the natiue sense thereof . But this the Primatiue Church could not receaue , if it wholy erred in so mayne a matter of Christian doctrine , as the doctryne of Indulgences is . The second Absurdity , is that in regard of the said Fathers and Generall Councells , defending the doctrine of Indulgences , the whole Church of Christ ( supposing the doctrine to be fa●se ) should erre in matter of fayth ; contrary to the Promise of Christ , who hath promised euer to be with his Church till the end of the World ; which said Church of his is styled by the Apostle ( for it greater certainty of fayth h h 1. Tim. 3. columna & firmamentum veritatis ; and therefore incompatible with errour .

And thus much concerning the doctrine of Indulgences ; ending this discours with the Confession of Kempnitius , ( touching the antiquity thereof ) who plainly acknowledgeth , and saith i i Kempnitius examen . part. 4. p. 329. that the beginning of Indulgences is not clearely enough set downe in histories .

The Catholicke doctrine touching Communion vnder one Kynd , defended .

THe true state of this question is not , whether Christ did institute the Eucharist vnder both kynds ; Or whether hymselfe and the Apostles did at the first institution , receaue it vnder both kynds : Or whether the Apostles and the Fathers afterwards at sundry tymes did minister it to the Laity , vnder both kynds ( for all this is confessed for true ) But only the Question heare is , whether Christ our Sauiour did geue an absolute Command , vnto his Apostles and their Successours of administrating the said Sacrament vnder both kynds , ( to wit of breade and Wyne ) so as the deliuering of it to the Laity vnder one kynd only , should be a breach of our Lords precept therein .

The Protestants affirme it to be an absolute transgression of our Sauiours precept ; The Catholicks denye it ; mantayning , that our Sauiour in the first institution of the Sacrament , did leaue no precept , touching the maner , how it is to be administrated to the Laity .

The Catholicks do further iustify , that the Protestants in this place do ignorantly confound a Precept with an Institution betwene which two , theare is great difference . For example , God did first Institute and ordayne Mariadge ; yet he gaue no precept or command thereof : For if he had , then all Men should haue bene bownd to marye .

The Catholicks prooue this their doctryne ; first from our Lord and Sauiours owne words ; Who , as he some tymes maketh mention of both kynds : so often doth be mention but ore Kynd only , as wheare he sayth : He , a a Ioan. 〈◊〉 . that eateth this bread , shall liue for euer . Againe : This b b vbi supra . is the bread , that commeth downe from Heauen : in both which places ( besides diuers others ) be maketh no mention of the Cup.

Secondly , the s●me doctrine is proued from the practise of our Sauiour hymselfe ; c c Luc. 24. who being at Emaus with his two Disciples at supper , did take breade , and ( as S. Luke relateth ) and blesse and breake it , and did reach it to them . Wheare S. Luke mentioneth not the Cup. That by this breade is vndersto●de the ●ucharist , is taught by S. d d Lib. 3. de consensu . c. 25. Austin , and euen by some Protestant e e Melan 〈…〉 on Apolog. Cō 〈…〉 . Aug. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 de vtraque specie . Wryters .

Thirdly , from the Apostles practize , after Christs tyme. For werea●● , that S. Luke f f Act. 2. ●eaking of the beleiuers and the faythfull ) thus sayth : They (f) were perseuering in the doctrine of the Apostles , and in communication of breaking of bread , and in prayers . Heare is no mention of the Cup to the Laity ; And yet ●eare , by breaking of breade is vnderstoode the Eucharist ; both because it is ioyned with doctrine and prayers , as also by the testimonies of the auncien● g g Author operis imperfect in Math. homil. 17. Beda ad c. 20. Act. Fathers , & the Protestants . h h Luth. setm . de Fucharist . Caluin . l. 4. instit. par. 17. Kempnit . exam. Concil. Tridē● . sess. 21. part. 2. Concerning which place of S. Luke , wee are to conceaue , that S. Luke related not what the Apostles did ( who , no dowbt , did consecrate in both hynds ) but only , what the Laity did , and vnder what kynd they did receaue .

Fourthly , the foresaid doctryne of the Laity communicating vnder one kynd or both , is confessed by diuers learned Protestants , as a matter of Indifferency only , and not of Necessity : For Luther thus writeth heareof : i i De captiuit babilon . l. de Eucharist . They sinne not against Christ , who vse one kind ; seing Christ hath not commanded to vse both but hath le●f●●t to the will of euery one . In lyke sort Hospinian k k Hist. Sacram. part 2. fol. 112. ( the Protestant ) relateth , that certaine Protestants ( as houlding it a matter of indifferency ) did actually communicate vnder one kynd . To be short , Melancton thus writeth heareof : l l Cent. epist. theolog . epist. 74p . 25 〈…〉 Concerning both the kinds of the Lords supper &c. The Pope with out any hurt , might easely healpe these inconueniences ; Yf taking away the prohibition , he would leaue the vse free . And this liberty would noting hurt vs : Of such indifferency ( we see ) Melancton maketh this poynt to be

In the next place , we will examine our Aduersaries , cheifest arguments produced out of the Scripture to the contrarie . And first , they obiect the words of our Sauiour : m m Ioan. 6. Vnlesse you eate the flesh of the Sonne of Man , and drinke his bloud , you shall not haue lyfe in you .

To this I answeare ; first , that according to diuers learned n n Luth. de capt . Babil . c. 1. Swinglius de vera & falsa religione . c. de Eucharist . Caluin Instit. l. 4. c. 17. par. 33. Protestants , these words do not concerne the Sacrament of the Eucharist ▪ But that by eating and drinking in this place , is vnderstood beleiuing in Christ .

Secondly , admitting the same words to concerne the B. Eucharist ; and withall supposing them to include a precept ( as indeed they include no precept ) yet this precept resteth not in the Maner of receauing , but in the thing receaued ; to wit , the body and bloud of Christ . But the body and bloud of Christ are as fully receaued vnder one kynd , as vnder both ; as hereafter shal be showed .

Our Aduersaryes further obiect those other words of our Sauiour : o o Math. 26. drinke you all of this . Which words they will needs extend , as spoken to all the La●ty .

To this I first answeare , that the word : All , is not euer taken in the Scripture Vniuersally , for all Men , or all things ; but often for all only of some certayne kynd ; And according hearto we thus reade : p p Rom. 3. All Men sinned ; and yet from hence Christ is excepted . Againe , we also reade : q q Math. ●7 . 〈◊〉 cryed , Crucifye hym : And yet the Apostles were exempt out of this : All. And so heare in the former words : Drinke you all of this ; The word : All , is to be restrayned only to all the Apostles , who then were with Christ : For if it were to be extended to all Men vniuersally , and without restraint ; then should the Sacrament of the Cup be giuen to Iewes , Turks , Infidels , and Children ; all which not withstanding are exempted from thence , by the confession of the Protestants . Moreouer Drinke yee all of this was spoken onely to those to whom was said do yee this in remembrance of me . But this was spoken onely to the Apostles and in them to Preists their successours .

Now seeing ( as aboue it is proued ) Communion ( vnder one , or both kynds ) is a thing of Indifferencie ; The Church of God out of her authoritie , hath debarred the Laity from the Cup ; moued thearto ( besides some other reasons ) out of a due reuerrence to this highe and venerable Sacrament . For if the Laity should drinke of the Cup , it would not ( morally speaking ) be otherwyse , but that through the negligence of diuers of the Laity , theare would be frequent spilling of the Cup vpon the ground ; a thing most indecent and irreuerent ; and which the auncient r r Austin . l. 5. homil. 26. Cyrill Catech. mystag . 5. Origen homil. 13. in Exodum . Fathers had a speciall care to preuent .

Neither can it be heare replyed , that to the Laity ( as being retayned from the Cup ) but a halfe and imperfect Sacra ment is geuen ; and that thereupon the Laity is depryued of much grace and fruyte , imparted by receauing it vnder both kinds : To this I answere . First , the Protestants haue small reason to vrge the want of Grace or fruit , by giuing it vnder one kind ; seing by their doctrine , this Sacrament actually giueth no grace or fruit at all , but only by representation or signification ; But this representation of our Sauiours death is perfectly accomplished vnder one kind only ; As we see , it was fully figured in the old Law , in the Manna alone , and in the Paschall Lambe alone .

Secondly and more particularly , I say , that neither is this Sacrament giuen by halfs only ( as our Aduersaries suggest ) neither is lesse fruit imparted by one kind , then by both ; the reason hereof is , because the Catholicks do ioyntly teach , that vnder eyther kind , is truly contayned whole Christ ; to wit , his Body , Bloud , Soule , and Diuinity .

That this doctrine is true ( euer presupposing the Reall Presence of Christ in the Sacrament , which all Catholicks doe ) is prooued from two other Principles of faith . The first is , that Christ after his Resurrection , shall neuer dye agayne , according to that of S. Paul : s s Rom 6. Christ rysing from the dead , now dyeth no more . From whence it immediately followeth , that vnder the forme of Bread , the Body of Christ is not without bloud and Soule ; seing otherwise , it would be without life , and consequently dead . The second Article is , That Christ is one Diuine Person , subsisting in two Natures : from whence it followeth , that seing the Body of Christ hath no other subsistence , then that of his Godhead ; That therefore where his body is , there also is his Diuinity . Both which Articles being true , & acknowledged by the Protestants , it vnauoydably followeth , that ( once supposing and granting the Reall Presence for true doctrine ) neyther the Sacrament is maymed or imperfect vnder one kind ; nor that lesser grace or fruyte is giuen vnder one kynd , then vnder both . And thus farre of this poynt .

The Catholicke Doctrine touching Relicks of Saincts Bodyes ; the signe of the Crosse ; Praying vpon Bea●es ; Benediction of Creatures &c.

FIrst touching Relicks of Saincts Bodyes . Whereas the a a In prae●●t . 6. Cent. Centurists do charge vs Catholicks , that the Relicks of Saincts bodyes are worshipped by vs , with diuine honour ; and that we do pray vnto them , as if they did heare vs , or were liuing . To this I answere . It is a most impudent and lying slaunder , fitting to proceede from the tongues of such falfe Apostles . For which of vs Catholicks haue euer inuoked the Relicks of any Sainct ? Or who of vs was euer heard to say : Holy Relicks pray for vs ?

The honour we do to them is this . We worship Relicks with the same inferiour worship , as we do to other religious things : And this we do , as reputing them the holy pledges of our Patrons ; and as being parcells of those bodyes , wherein the Holy Ghost did vouchsafe to inhabite ; and which hereafter at the day of generall Resurrection of our bodyes , shal be reunited to their glorious soules now in Heauen : But we neyther honour them , as God : nor inuoake them , as Saincts . And this is the very answere , which S. b b Lib. 〈…〉 tra V●●ilantium . Ierome made to Vigilantius ( the Hereticke ) denying ( as Protestants now do ) the lawfull worship of Relicks .

The worship of Relicks giuen by vs Catholicks , is warranted by the authorityes of the second c c Act. 3. Nicene Councell , by the Councell d d Can. vlt. Gangreuse , as also by the practise of the auncient Fathers : to wit e e In vita B Antonij . Athanasius , f f In psal. 115. Basill , g g Serm. de Sanctis Inuentio & Maximo . Chrysostome , h h Serm. 93. de Sanctis Nasa●io & Celso . Ambrose , i i Lib. aduers . Vigilantium . Ierome , and ( to omit diuers others ) k k Austin . de Eccles. dogm . c. 73. Auttin himselfe : who thus writeth hereof : Sanctorum corpora & praecipuè Beatorum Martyrum reliquias , ( ae si Christi membra ) syncertssime honor anda credimus : si quis contra hanc sententiam venerit , non Christianus , sed Eunomianus & Vigilantianus creditur . We do beleiue , that the bodyes of Saincts , and especially the relicks of blessed Martyrs are to be honored , ( as the members of Christ ) And who impugneth this sentence , is not to be reputed a Christian , but an Eunomian and Vigilantian . Thus S. Austin .

The euidency of the auncient rathers iudgments hereof , appeareth from the open confessions of the learned Protestants . For O●●ander the Protestant thus reprooueth S. Ierome . l l In epitom . Cent. 4. pag. 506. Ierome did foolishly contend that the relicks of Saincts are to be worshipped . In like sort , where Ierome thus writeth : m m Cont●a Vigilant 〈…〉 an t med. Constantinus imperator sanctas reliquias Andreae , Lucae , & Timothei transtulit Constantinopolni , apud quas dae 〈…〉 rugiunt . Constantin the Emperour did cause the holy relicks of Andrew , Lucke , and Timothee to be carryed to Constantinople , whereat the very Deuils did roare or rage . Now Bullenger ( the Protestant ) thus taxeth Ierome . n n De Origine Erroris printed ●●guri , 1539. fol. 67. S Ierome is ouerfall , in that he saith , the Diuills did roare at the holy relicks of Andrew . The said B●●lenger o o Bulenger vbi supra . confesseth , that many holy men of God ( he styling them , Sancti Dei homines ) did hould the doctrine of worshipping of Relicks : and in lieu of answere , thus sayth : studium Dei habent , sed non secundum scientiam .

Touching Pilgrimages to the bodyes & relickes of Saincts , the Centurists do thus write : p p Cent. 4. col 457. De peregrinationibus ad loca sacra , caeperunt hoc seculò primum sub Constantino , locaterrae Sanctae in praecio habert : Helenama●er Imperatoris ( mulier superst 〈…〉 sa ) illuc profect a ador andi carsa &c. Touching pilgrimages to Holy places , the places of the holy Land did beginne first in this age vnder Constantin , to be had in estimation and respect ; Helen the mother of Constantine ( being a superstitious Woman ) did goe thither , to the end to worship them . Thus the Centurists . The sayd Centurists do in like sort thus condemne Constantine himselfe : q q Cent. 4. col. 15●9 . plane simili superstitione , Constantinus reliquias quasdam de Cruce ( ab Helena reperta ) Constantinopolni dicitur transtulisse , vt esset eius Verbis conseruatrix . ●ust with the like superstition , Constantiue is reported to haue translated certaine relicks of the Crosse ( found by Helen ) to Constantinople : that they might be the 〈◊〉 of the Citty .

Touching Miracles , wrought at the Sepulchres and bodyes of Saincts , the Protestants do no lesse acknowledge the same for first Luther thus confesseth : r r In purgat . quorundam . articul . Who can deny those things , which God to this day worketh miraculously and visibly ( ad diuorum Sepulora ) at the Monuments of the Saincts ? In lyke sort Cempnitius thus confe●eth : s s Cempnitius exam. part. 4. p. 10. Apud Augustinum , in translatione Reliquiarum Stephan● , mulier caeca illuminatae est ; & aliquando quaedam miracula ad reliquias edebantur . Austin recordeth , that vpon the transl●tion of the Relicks of Steuen , a blynd Woaman was restored to sight , and that sometymes certaine Miracles were wrought at the presence of Relicks . And the Centurists affirme the lyke , thus wryting : Si t t Cent. 4. col. 457. Ambrosio credimus , agri , qui vestes Sanctorum manu contigissent , sanabantur ; obs●ssi liber●bantur &c. Yf we beleiue Ambrose , Sick● persons , who touched with their hands the vestments of Saincts , were cured , and persons possessed with euill spirits , were theareby freed of them . Finally D. Whitakers geueth a full allowance and approbation of all such relations in these words : u u Contra Durae um . l. 10. p. ●66 . Nec illa miracula vanafuisse put● , quae in Martyrum monumentis facta narrantur . I do not hould those Miracles , as vayne or idle , which are related to haue been exhibited , at the monuments or sepulcres of Saincts .

Thus much ton●hi●g ●●licks , the true and Catholicke doctrine whereof may receaue it most full and vndowbted prouffe ( if all aboue spoken , were false ) euen from Gods holy writ . For do we not find , that Moyses x x Exod. 13. vsed great reuerence to the bones of Ioseph the Patriarch ? As also did not Iosias y y Reg. 4. cap. 23. the lyke to the bones of an other Prophet ? And were not Miracles wrought , by the dead bones of Elizeus , z z Reg. 4. c. 3 by the shadow of S. Peter , a a Act. 5. and by the Nappkin of S. b b Act. 19. Paule ? Therefore if the Protestants will ad wit the old and New Testament ; they must consequently admit the Catholicke doctrine of Relicks .

In this next place , we will come to the signe of the Crosse ; which we make vpon our foreheads , which is so much disliked by the Protestants .

When a Catholicke signeth hymselfe with the signe of the Crosse , be but only implicitly des●●eth that by this signe ; which ex 〈…〉 citly and by mediation of words , he desireth by prayers . For seeing the signe of the Crosse doth figure out to the eye our Sauiours Passion ; and seing the secret desires of the hart are manifested and made knowne , as well by signes of the bodye ( as dumbe Men , and such as cannot speake , are accustomed to make ) as by prayers and words of the tongue : Therefore if it be lawfull for me with the tongue to pray , that God will forgiue my sinns , through the Meritts of Christ his death and Passion ; It must needs then consequently be lawfull for me , to pray to hym to the same end , without words , by making the signe of the Crosse : Seing the making of this signe , with an intention of internall Prayer ( the Crosse being the badge and remembrance of our Sauiours death and Passion ) is all one , as to pray in words by vertue and force of the same death and Passion ; Since the hand in this case , by making the signe of the Crosse , doth supply the place and office of the rongue .

The lawfulnes of this signe may be taken and proued . from the signs of the Old Testament ; So the Bloud of the c c Exod. 12 Lambe , sprinckled vpon the posts of Howses , did signify nothing els , but the signe of the Crosse vpon the foreheads of Christians , by the authority of S. d d Lib. de catechis . rudibus c. 20. Austin .

In lyke sort , the signe : Tau , e e Ezéch . cap. 9. which was commanded to be drawne vpon the foreheads of those , who lamented , was a manifest signe of the signe of the Crosse on the foreheads of Christians , by the iudgments both of S. f f Lib. aduers . Demetrianum . Cyprian and S g g In Comment. Ezechiel . Ierome .

The making of the signe of the Crosse was euer practized and iustified by the Fathers of the primatiue Church ; of which point see , h h De Eccles. Hierarch . c. 4. 5. 6. Dionisius , i i Lib. 4. epist. 6. Cyprian , k k Catech. 4. Cyrill , l l De Incarnat . Verbi . Athanasius ) who saith : Sign●cru●●s omnia magica compescentur , by the signe of the Crosse all Magick is suppressed ) m m De Spirit . Sancto . c. 37. Basil , n n Serm. 43. Ambrose , o o Epist. ad Demetriadem . Ierome , p p Tract. 18. in loannem ad finem . vide lib. 1. Confess . c. ●1 . Austin , besydes diuers others of the Greeke and Latin Church : The words of S. Austin I will heare set downe ; Thus then he wryteth : Quid est , quod omnes ●●uerunt : signum Christi , nisi crux Christi ? quod signum , in si adhibeatur siue frontibus credentium &c. What other thing is the signe of Christ ( which allmen know ) then the Crosse of Christ ? Which signe of the Crosse , except it be made vpon the forehead of the faythfull beleiuers ; vpon the water , by the which , they are regenerated ; vpon the oyle , with which Crisme they are anoynted ; vpon the Sacrifice , with which they are nurished , not any of these former mysteries are duly performed . Thus S. Austin .

Ad hearto , that God hath vouchsafed to worke diuers Miracles by the signe of the Crosse , as appeareth by the frequent testimonyes of the Fathers ; to wit of q q Initio Scorpiaci . Tertullian , r r Haeres. 30. Epiphanius , s s Orat. in Iu●ianum . Nazianzene , t t In vita Gregorij . Thaumaturgi . Nysse●e , u u In vita Antonij . Athanasius , x x In vita Pauli , primi Eraemitae . Ierome , y y Lib. 22. de ciuicare D 〈…〉 Austin and others : All which authorityes to contemne in this point , were most insolently to traduce so many learned and auncient Fathers ( and consequently the whole Church of God in those pure and primatiue tymes ) as superstitious , blynd , and ignorant .

Now that the testimonyes of the former auncient Fathers ( though their owne words , for breuity , be not at large set downe ) both touching the worship giuen by them to the Crosse , ( I euer meane , such religious and inferiour worship , as is giuen to things consecrated to religious ends : farre different from that giuen to God ) and touching diuers Miracles wrought by the said signe , are most clear● , euident , and vnanswerable , appeareth from the acknowledgments of learned Protestants in this behalfe : And thus concordantly hereto , D●nae●s ( that learned Protestant ) thus wryteth : z z In prime part . altera parte ad Bellarm ▪ Controuers . 5. p. 1415. Cyrill and sundry other Fathers were plainly superstitious and blynded with this enchantment of the Cros●es adoration . The Centuris●● thus wryte of S. Ambrose : a a Cent. 4. col. 302. A●brosius multa comme●crat superstitios● de cruce 〈…〉 nta : Ambrose relateth many superstitious things of the Crosse , which was found . In like sort the said Protestants thus taxe Ephrem : b b Cent. 4. vbi supra . 〈…〉 is signationi nimium viditur tribuere : Ephrem is thought to ascrybe too much to the signe of the Crosse And yet Ephrem liued within little more then three hundre● yeres after Christ . The said Cent●rists , speaking of the age of Tertullian , ( who liued not much more , then two hundred yeres after Christ ) thus confesse : c c Cent. 3. col . 121. Crucis Imaginem , seu in locis publicorum congress●um , s●u domi priuatim Christianos habuiss● indicare vide 〈…〉 Tertullianus : Tertullian seemeth to show , that the Christians ai● cause the signe of the Cross● to be made in places of publicke meetings , as also priuatly in their houses : D. Fulke , speaking of Paulinu● thus wryteth : d d against Heskius , Sanders , p. 657. By the report of Paulinus the Crosse was by the Bishop of Ierusalem brought forth at Easter , to be worshipped of the People . The sayd Doctour thus wryteth of Cy●ili and Ruffinus , saying : e e D. Fulk vbi supra . Ruffinus and Cyrill had a superstitious estimation of the signe of the Crosse .

Now touching more particularly the miracles wrought ( in the Fathers iudgments ) by the signe of the Crosse , we find these confession ▪ following .

And first , we find Osiander speaking of Iulian , thus to wryte : Iulianus metu perculsus , illico ex consuetudine Christianismi , (f) In Epitom . 326. frontem cruce signat , ●ibi Damones subito disparent ; Iulian being stroken with feare , according to the custome of Christians , did presently signe hymselfe with the signe of the Crosse ; and therevpon the Deuills did vanish away .

M. Burges ( an English Protestant ) with exception only to the worshipping of the Crosse , thus wryteth of the Fathers in this poynt g g Extant in D. Couels breife answere to the said M Burges . There is nothing ascrybed to the Crosse ( in or out of Baptism● ) by the rankest Papists , but the Fathers are as deeply engaged in the same ; so as if we will vse it , as the Fathers did &c. we take the Soule to be fenced by crossing of the body , and the Crosse to haue vertue of consecrating the Sacrament , dryuing away Deuills , Witchcraft &c.

To be short , Doctour Couel , speaking of those auncient tymes of the primatiue Fathers , thus tr●ly and ●ngenuo●sly confesseth : h h In his answere to M. Burges . No man can deny , but that God ( after the death of his Sonne ) manifested his power to the amazement of the world , in this contemptible signe ; as being the instrument of many Miracles . And thus far touching the Fathers iudgments of the worship due to the Crosse , and the Miracles , which God hath vouchsafed to worke by it , as his instrument ; an 〈◊〉 all this confessed by the learned Protestants . And with this I end ; putting the Reader in mind , that when a Crosse is made in Paper , wood , or stone &c. It is made to put the behoulder in remembrance of our Sauiours ' Passion and death ; And therefore that Man , who calumniateth thereat , sheweth greate ouerture , that he cannot willingly endure to heare of our Sauiours death and Passion : The Crosse being but to the Eye , as the Words are to the eare .

In this next place , we will breifly touche praying vpon beades , benediction or blessing of Water , Sali , Aches , Candells &c. against which many Protestants do mightely inueigh , as charging the Catholicks the●rein , with Superstition ; affirming further , that the Catholicks do place a kynd of Diuinity in these matters . Into such strayts ( we see ) the Protestants are driuen , that whereas they are not able ( by any forcible arguments ) to ouerthrowe the Catholicke fayth in the greatest & cheifest articles , they therefore bend all their stenght to impugne these small rytes and Ceremonyes .

And first , touching praying vpon beades . All Men know , it is but the repetition of the same prayers , seuerall tymes ; the beades seruing only but to number or counte the tymes .

This Custome is warranted by the ex●mple of our Sauiour hymselfe , who being in the garden , did repeate one and the same prayer , to wit , i i Math. cap. 26. me●hree ●hree seuerall tymes . Now if it be lawfull to iterate one and the same prayer thryse ; it is lawfull ( by the same reason ) to iterate it many scores of tymes together . Againe , if it be lawfull to repeate the Lords prayer seuen tymes in a weeke ( for I presume , euery Protestant will confesse , he saith it once a day ) why then may he not repeate the said Lords prayer , or any other good and spirituall prayer , seauen tymes a day : and if seauen tymes , why not then any greater number of tymes ? Againe , once granting the prayer to be good ; the goodnes of the Prayer ( by force of all reason ) doth warrant the often repetition of it .

The precise number or tymes of repeating one & the same prayer ( among Catholicks ) hath a mysticall reference , either to the number of Dauids Psalms ; or to the number of the yeeres , that our blessed Lady liued heare vpon earth : or to the number of our Sauiours wounds ; or to the number of the Persons in the most blessed Trinity : Or to some other such Mystery .

The Antiquity of praying vpon Beads , is confested by the k k Cent. 4. col. 1329. Centurists and by l l Epiton . Cent. 4. pag. 454. Osiander , to haue bene twellue hundred yeres since . In lyke sorte , the antiquity is recorded by m m Hist. l. 6. cap. 29. Zozomene , who saith , that Paule ( the Monke ) was accustomed to pray by counting the number of litle stones , in tyme of repeating his prayers ; Which is all one as to pray vpon beads . The words of Zozomene are these : Indi●s singulos trecentas orationes Deo , velut tributum quoddam , reddidit : ac neper imprudentiam in numero errant , tr●centis lappillis in sinum contectis , ad singulas preces , singulos inde e●ecit lapillos : consumptis igitur lapillis , constabit sibi orationes ( lapillis numero pares ) abs se explectos esse . And thus much touching praying vpon Beads .

We will next de●●ende to the consecrating or blessing of Creaturs ( vsed in the Catholicke Church ) the lawfulnes whereof is warranted by the example of Christ himselfe ; n n Math. 14. Luke 9. Who intending to multiplye the breads , did looke vp towards Heauen and blessed the breads ; and from that blessing of his did multiplye them . But certaine it is , that what our Sauiour did , is free from all reprehension .

Againe , doth not the Apostle say : That o o 1. Tim. 4 euery Creature is sanctified by the Word and prayer

The Antiquity of Hollowing or blessing Creatures ( and particularly of holy water ) is very greate . For p p Lib. 8. Apost. con stit . c. 35 Clemens , q q De Eccles. Hierarch . c. de Baptismo . Dionysius ( both who liued in the Apostles tymes ) r r Catech. 3. Cirill , s s Lib. 1. epist 12. Cyprian , t t Lib 4. de Sacram. cap. 5. Ambrose , u u Lib. 16. in ●ul●anū c 8. serm. 19 de Sauctis . Austin , and others co make frequent mention of Holy Water , and the religious vse thereof . And hence it is , that the x x Cent. 3. col . 28. & 148. Centurists do charge the Fathers ( liuing in the third age after Christ ) with superstition in blessing and hollowing of water ; among which Fathers S. y y Cypr. lib. 1. epist. 12. Cyprian , thus saith : Oportet mandari & sanctificari prius aquat a Sacerdote .

Benediction of Oyle is mentioned and approued by Clemens , and Dionisius ( in the places aboue noted ) by z z Lib. de Spirit Sancto . c. 27. Basill , Austin , a a Tract. 11. in Ioannem . Cyprian , who thus expresly b b Lib. 1. epist. 12. saith : Olium in Altari Sanctificatur by the Councel of c c Can. 48. Leodice , by the second Councell of d d Can. 3. Carthage , by the third Councell of e e Can. 36. Carthage , by the first Councell of f f Can. 20. Tole●● : Finally ( to omit the testimonyes hereof of other Councells , and g g vz. Damasu , epist. de Corepiscopis . Leo epist. 88. ad Episcopos Germaniae & Galliae . auncient Fathers ) the antiquity of Hollowing of Oyle ( and that particularly by a Bishop ( is acknowledged by the h h Cent. 3. col. 143. & Cent. 4. col. 865. Centurists , and by i i In Exam. part. 2. p. 58. Cempin 〈…〉 s.

Benediction of breads ( and this besides the ●se thereof in the consecration of the Sacrament , ) is proued from the authority of S. k k De peccat . merit l. 2. e. 26. Austin , S. l l Epist. ad Alipium & Romanianum inter epist. Augustini . Paulinus , and S. m m In vita Hilarionis , post med. Ierome ; the words of which last Father are these : Coneurrebant Episcopi , Presbiteri &c. vulgus ignobile , potentes viri & Iudices , vt benedictum ab eo panem vel ●leum acciperent . This poynt of the benediction of bread is so euident to haue bene practized in those auncient tymes , that D. n n against Heskins , Sanders &c. pag. 377. Fulke thus speaketh thereof : It was a superstitious bread giuen ( in S. Austins tyme ) to those , that were Catechumeni , in steede of the Sacrament . And Philip Mornay in lyke sort thus chargeth the Liturgy of S. Basill : It o o In his booke of the Masse . pag. 51. alloweth holy bread to be distributed , after Seruice to such , as had not communicated .

Benediction of Candells is acknowledged by the fourth Councell p p Can 〈◊〉 . of T 〈…〉 ledo , by Pope q q In Pontifical . Zozimus , S r r Lib. 〈◊〉 . epist. 28. Gregory , s s In benedict . Caerei Paschal . Prudentius , and t t Cap. 30. Strabo : and according hearto the Centurists u u Cent. 5. col. 744. do confesse the antiquity of this Ceremony to be greate : and withall do further confesse , that Candells did burne in the Church in the day tyme , in Constantyns dayes : thus wryting hereof : x x Cent. 4. col. 497. Accensiones candel●rum interdiù in templis Constantinus instituit ; The proufe of which custome is further euident , out of the fourth Councell of y y Can. 6. Carthage , z z Hist. lib. 6. cap. 8. Eusebius , and a a Contra Vigilant . cap. 3. Ierome .

The benediction of Palms and Ashes is proued from the authority of S. b b In homil. de die Cinerem & Dominica Palmarum . Maximus . Now to reiect the authorityes of all the former Fathers , touching the benediction of Creatures , is to charge the Primatiue Church with superstition and errour : Which no Man either of humility , Charity , or learning , will do . Ad herto , that the Protestants themselfs do practice this consecration of Creaturs : For they do consecrate their new builded Colledges , and Ch 〈…〉 ches , or Chappells : yea ( which is most ridiculou . ) It hath bene obserued of late , that in some places of England . Yf a Catholicke hath bene buryed in a Church ( ●otwithstanding the Church was first builded by Gotholicks ) the Church ( as supposed , to be propha●ed by the dead body of the Catholicke ) hath beene by it Person and Ministers of new consectated and hollowed . Spectatam admissi ●isumteneatis .

Now in this next place we will show the end , why Creatures are bless●d , by the prayers of the Chu●ch . Which end is threefould . First to signify spirituall effects : Thus the sprinkling of Ashes signifyeth penance : Palmes signify victory : the Paschal Candell betokeneth the glory of these Resurrection And thus they are vsed to stirrup our deuotion The second End is to take away veniall sinns : of which poynt S. c c 3. part . quaes. 87. art. 3. Thomas and d d In 4. S 〈…〉 nt . dist. 15. quae. 2. Dominicus a Soto , fully dispute . Now heare we are to conceaue , that as the bloud of Christ doth clense vs from all sinne , if so it be applied to vse by the Sacraments of Baptisme and Pennance : so these Consecrated things and our Lords prayer do apply his bloud for the taking away of veniall sinne from hym , who is in state of grace . The third end is to dryue away wicked spirits , and to cure diseases , as appeareth from the prayers , by which they are consecrated . Neuer the lesse we are hea●e to know , that these consecrated things do not any worke theese effects , as the Sacraments ( wheare no let is ) do infallibly work their effects . And the reason heare of is , because these consecrated things haue not their force from any expresse couenant made by God ( as the acraments haue ) but from the Prayers of the Church , and denotion of the parties vsing them : Besides , sometymes it is not conuenient , that we should be freed from sicknes or diseases , or from the molestation of the Deuills .

And according hearto we find , that the e e Marc. 4. Apostles did vse to annoynt the sicke with oyle , and they were cured . In like sort . f f Haeres. 30. Epiphanius relateth , how Ioseph by holy water , did dissolue inca●tation and Magicke . And g g Lib. 5. cap. 21. Theodoret recordeth the same of Marcellus Apameensis ; and h h Cap. 19. Palladius of Macharius .

Againe S. Ierome testifyeth , that S. Hilarion did cure diuers diseased Persons with holy bread and holy oyle . The like did S. i i In vita cius l. 3. c. 5. Bernard . S. k k Lib. Dialog. c. 10. Gregory witnesseth that one S. Fortunatus did cure one of a broken thigh , only by sprinkling holy water vpon it , and his owne prayers . Finally In vita Malachiae . S. Bernard affirmeth , that S. Malachius did cure one , that was ph●anticke , by the meanes of Holy Water . Now these Examples do show , that it is not Negro 〈…〉 cy ( as the Protestants sometymes do tearme it ) to seeke to produce ( with the help of prayers ) supernaturall effect , by applying of holy water or holy oyle .

That the Church of God hath authority to blesse Creaturs for the former ends , ( and for the furtherance of Denotien ) is prooued from her greater authority , practized in changing the Saboath day , from Saturday to Sunday ; And now it being thus changed , is 〈…〉 erable . m m So teacheth D. Whitguift in his defence pag. 89. D. Willet in Synops. p. 382. Cartwright , vbi Whitguift supra . Which point by the confession of learned n n D. Whit●uift in his defence p. 88. D. Fulke in reuelat . 1. Bullenger in his Decad , englished . Decad. 2. serm. 4. Protestants , was wrought by the sole authority of the Church ; and is not warranted by any text or passage of Scripture .

Now thus farre of all these former poynts . And heere I am to end ; aduertizing the Protestant Reader , that what is heere set downe , contaynes ( for greater breuity ) but short discourses of the said controuersyes heere handled ; and assuring him , that scarse the fift part of the prooff , and authorities , drawne from Gods holy Word , from the testimonyes of the Fathers , from the practise of Gods Church , and from the confession euen of our Aduersaryes are heere alledged , which might be produced , in warrant of the said Catholicks doctrines . And therfore I referre the Reader ( these be 〈…〉 uen , but for some delibation and tast aforehand ) for his greater satisfaction , to the many learned Catholicke Treati●es , written vpon the said subiects .

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

Michaeas . What do you reply hereto ? Are these discourses of your owne framing ? Againe ; If they be , how can you then free your selfe from that infinite Wrong , which you ( being a stranger ) offer to our state , in seeking thus by supplanting the Ghospell , to plant your owne false Religion ? And lastly , what were the Motyues , inducing you rather to diuulge these particuler doctrines , then diuers others of greater weight and consequence , which are still in Question betweene you and vs ? Belike there was some reason or this your election & choyce .

MICHAEAS .

My very good Lord . I will answere you to all your demands ; And herein my Tongue shal be a true Interpreter of my Hart. First , concerning the Authour . I do heere freely grant , I was the Man , who penned them ; who taugh them : and who through Gods grace and assistance , wil be ready to seale the truth of them ( if need should so requyre ) with my bloud . Concerning the choyce made of these Controuersyes , among many others of as great , or greater importance , now ventilated betweene the Catholicks and the Protestants . Your Lordship may be aduertized , that the true reason was ; because I do find by experience , that the common and ignorant Protestant of meaner conceate , and whose vnderstanding is vsually immersed in sense , seemeth to take more exception at these Catholicke doctrines , then at others , heere not discoursed off . The cause hereof I take to be , in that most of these consist in practize ( and consequently , are dayly subiect to the outward sense ) Whereas those other , for the cheife part , do lye inspeculation ; & thereby are further remooued from the apprehension of the vnlgar ; whose vnderstandings herein are commonly like to boysterous Instruments , vnportionable and insutable to worke vpon any fine and curions matter . For I grant , that though they were principally written for fome students of the vniuersity of good talents ; yet secondarily my intention was , the instructing of the vnlearned Protestant , in the said Catholicke doctrines . That they are heere handled so breifly , is in regard of the multiplicity of the Questions : each of which , if it were at large disputed off , would requyre no small Treatise ; And therefore I haue rather vndertaken to set downe ( besides some few prooffs of them ) the true state of euery such Catholicke poynt ( so to vindicate is from the foule mistaking of the Aduersary ) then in the fullest manner by authorities , to confirme & fortify them .

LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

Well touching these two former poynts , you haue answered ( and in part sat s●yed ) me . But what say you to the iniury by you wrought , not only against the vniuersity ; but euen against the whole state ? Which cannot by our owne stat●ts and Decrees , brooke such tumultuous proceedings in any Man , much lesse in forayners ; as to labour to disioynt the beautifull 〈◊〉 me of that Religion , which the whole Realme for these many yeares , hath so peaceably enioyed .

MICHAEAS .

Most Reuerend ludge . Giue me leaue without offence , to vse the words only al 〈…〉 uely , not comparatiuely ▪ of that great Apostle ; who like my selfe , was once a Iew , but after a Christian : Neither * * Act. 2● . against the Law , nor against the temple of God , nor against Caeser , haue I any thing offended .

It is true , And this I confesse with comfort ( for discomfort is the ordinary attendant of a faulty guiltines , that I much labored ( and to that end cheifly penned these short Discourses ) to dissem 〈…〉 ate the true faith of these points in the minds of the Schollars of my acquaintance ; And why might I not ? Since the valew of an a 〈…〉 yleable fayth is so great , as that without it no man ; with it all men may stand gratefull in Gods eye : Sine a a Hebr. 11. fide impossibile est placere Deo .

Consider my L. the price but of one Soule , which our Sauiour hath ransomed out of the Deuills hands , with so high a reate : ( humiliauit * * Philip. 2. semetipsum , factus obediens vsque ad mortem ; mortem autem crucis ) And then thinke , what greife it were , that this Soule through want of true fayth , should returne to it former thraldome . Alas my L. Is 〈…〉 not greate pitye , to see diuers yong students of eleuated Witts and apprehencsions , either to receaue their Religion ( which they beleiue to be true ) from the bare affiance and trust of their Readers and Maysters , without any further examining or tryall of it ; Or els litle to pryze any Religion at all ? And thus in this later maner , this poore Materia Prima being Forml●sse , is ready indifferently and without choyce , to entertayne the impression of any Religion . Now is it not great pitye ( I say ) to suffer these Soules to perish eternally , as not hauing an articulate & perfect Christian fayth ? Which fayth ought so to be qualified ; seing it auayleth litle to beleiue in Christ , except we beleiue truly in Christ : For though fayth be heare to be requyred ; yet a false fayth is as preiudicial , as a meare Misbeleiffe : So light is more necessary to the eye , then darknes ; yet not being well proportioned , is more dangerous to the eye , then darknes . And indeed ( my L. ) I must confesse , that I do more fully glasse their danger in my owne former want of fayth , when I continued a Iew ; And am in this respect more ready to imparte the benefit of that to others , of which my selfe haue allready so fully tasted .

Now for this my attempt ( my selfe being an Alien ) I must shrowd it vnder the wings of the lyke attēmpts of S. Peter , and other the Apostles ; who were not afrayd to go ( by our Lords commandement ) into strange Countreyes , to preach & teach the faith of Christ : * * Marc. 16. Euntes in mundum vniuersum , praedicate Euangelium omni Creaturae .

And my good Lord : I must therefore further say , that though a Zeraphicall and burning zeale in this kind , may in an humane eye , seeme to be but a kind of madnes ; And that high Vertues of this Nature ( through want of due consideration ) do rather offend , then please ; yet since the Apostles did first tract this vnusuall path , their example hath more emboldned me to tread herein their stepps .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Good God . See vnto what an assent of impiety Mans nature is arryued . I meane heere , not only to do euill , but to make the Holy Apostles patrons of the said euill . No Michaeas : As soone may the Idoll Dagon stand by the Arke , as your pernitious Machinations beare affinity with the actions of the Apostles . You preach not Christ , but Antichrist ; and you must remember , that Christ himselfe said : Who * * Math. 12. gathereth not with me , scatereth .

MICHAEAS .

M. Vice-Chancelour , I see , you much labour to haue the aduantage of the day against mee : so willing you are , that I should lye prostrate with the basest shame . Yet my comfort is that Innocency ( though oppressed ) still continues Innocency . But to come to the poynt . What haue I donne , which the glorious Apostles may not seeme to haue donne ? They went into forayne Countryes , without any peculiar licence of the Princes of them , to preach the Gospell of Christ : I heare ( being a stranger ) haue aduentured to initiate some students in the fayth of Rome , which is the sole true fayth of Christ . They preached peaceably without raising of tumults , or teaching disobedience against the Prince of the Country : I did yet neuer intimate in my words or actions the least spote of disobedience , against the supreme Magistrate ; since I hould it a mighty errour , to seeke ●o order things by disorderly courses . They most happely pulled thousands of Soules out of the iawes of the Deuil : I do confesse , my sole end was to do some good in that kynd , if so God would vouchsafe to blesse therein my endeuours ; And most ioyfull I should be , if through my owne labour ( vnder Christ ) I might say , but of any one straying Soule , with the good Father in the Gospell : This * * Luke . 15. my sonne was dead , but is reuyued ; was lost , and is found .

Breifly , the● for such their accheiuements , finished their dayes in most bl●ssed Martyrdomes : O that might be so happy , as to ●ede●me ●y maninfold 〈◊〉 with so glorious a death : so true is that sentence ; The bloud of Martirs is the key of Paradise .

Heere now my good L. Yf you condemne me , how can you free them ? Therefore either absolue me with them , or accuse them with me : Since all of vs be either guilty , or all Innocent . Yf guilty ; I glorye to haue such Precedents of this my imaginary Cryme ; Yf innocent ; Why then do I stand at this wofull barre of Iustice , pleading ( if not for lyfe , at least ) for Liberty ?

LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE .

Although these your molitions and endeauours [ Mich●as ] may seeme to proceede from a feruour and zeale ; Yet I feare , this your zeale is branded with those words of S. Paul : b b Rom. 10. Aemulationem Dei habent , sed non secundum scientiam . Since diuers Men haue certaine impetuosityes and violent straynes of Nature , which ( because in their owne priuate conceats , they meane well ) they feare not to guild ouer with the fayre title of Christian zeale . Againe [ Mich●as ] wheare you seeke to sheyld your attempts , vnder the example of the Apostles , your mistaking heare is ouer grosse : since they preached the incontaminated and vnspoted fayth of Christ ; and weare therefore not only excusable , but euen warranted by the Holy Ghost ; Whereas you do teach a religion , mixted with diuers errours , and humane Inuentions ; and therefore farre different from that , first planted by the Apostles .

MICHAEAS .

My Lord . What colours soeuer of disgrace and contumely may ( in an other Mans eye ) be layed vpon theese my actions ; yet to my selfe I am best priuy , that they proceeded from my sole desire of aduancing the fayth of Christ , and from the bent of a strong affection , and loue towards hym : Amor c c Austia . meus , pondus meum ; illo feror , quocunque feror . Which loue and promptitude ought to be so intense and vehement , as that indeede it cannot transgresse any bounds , within which it may seeme to be limited . And therefore I heare hold it an extreame , to seeke in these actions to auoid the Extreame ; where the Excesse ( if any such can be ) putteth on the nature of the Meane . O my Lord , when the Apostle did write those fiery words : d d 2. Timoth. 4. Praedica Verbum , insta oportunè , importunè : argue , obsecra , increpa &c. No doubt he taught vs thereby , that in the preaching of the true Christian fayth , we should performe it with all improperation , speedines , and alacrity ; not loosing the tyme in any ceremonious delayes . Now my Lord , where you say , that the fayth taught by me , is different from the fayth first planted by the Apostles ; I hereto answere ( though most breifly , since this tyme is not capable of any long Discourse : ) Yf that Christian Religion , wherewith Rome was first cultiuated & tilled by the labours of the Apostles , did neuer since that time to this day , suffer the least change in any dogmaticall & materiall poynt ; Then followeth it ineuitably , that our present Catholick Religion is the same , which was preached by the Apostles ; and consequently , that I ( contrary to your L. supposall ) do heere instruct the Academians in the same fayth and Religion , which first florished in those primatiue tymes . Now that neuer any change was made at Rome in poynts of fayth and Religion , your Lordship may be fully satisfyed , by perusing the former Dialogue , betweene the Honorable Cardinall and Doctour Whitakers .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

My Lord . Michaeas will tyre you with his wearisome speeches , and ( if you would suffer him ) will perorate whole dayes togeather ; for he hath a peculiar deliuery of himselfe in seeking to decline his accusations , by framing his tedious discourses , touching the supposed honour of his owne Religion ; wholy impertinent to that , for which he now stands arraigned . Therefore to cut off all such exhorbitancyes of speeches , I now in your L. presence ( to the greater accumulation of his former crymes ) do in this last place , accuse him of being a Popish Priest : a pernicious state of Men , and such , as your Lordship well knowes , is incompatible with the Lawes of our Realme . Thus we may obserue , how the ouershadowing Prouidence of God hath disposed in these matters , that if ( by supposall ) his former faults might passe vncorrected , yet this last breaketh through the bounds of all Commiseration and Pitty .

Therefore your L. may do well to examyne him strictly hereof , and cause him to answere without any reserued sense of equiuocation ; the peculiar Dialect of the Papists in like cases .

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

Perceaue you not heere Michaeas , how in your accusation one cryme is euer at the backe of an other ; like waues following one another , till they all ouerflow and ouerwhelme you ? You are heere lastly accused to be one of that state of Men ( I meane , a Romish Priest ) which are insufferable in our Nation ; and whom ( as guilty of many foule transgressions ) our Lawes do most seuerely punish : Tell me therefore directly , whether you be a Priest , or no.

MICHAEAS .

Sweete Iesus , what sallyes of Malice hath your tongue [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] made in this your long Processe of my accusation ? First by charging me with reall disobedience to the supreme Magistrate , then with penning the foresaid Catholicke Treatises ; and now ( for the close of all ) with being a Priest : Where I see , howsoeuer my cause be good , yet I must be reputed Euill . But leauing that , and to answere to my Lords last Question . Since then I am demaunded thereof , I will not conceale my greatest honour . I grant , I am a Catholicke and Roman Priest , created by the reuerend hand of the most illustrious and learned Bellarmine . But is the very name of a Priest ( though otherwise , not to be charged with any fault ) so distastfull in this place ? Or shall it be at any tyme heere asked , Cur de solo nomine punitis facta ? (c) Tertul . aduers . Gentes .

Your Lordshipps iudgment ( no dowbt ) would hearein be altered , if so you would vouchsafe to take into your Consideration , the antiquity of the holy Order of Pryesthood . since our Sauiour hymselfe was the first Priest in the tyme of Grace ; typically adumbrated by that of Melchisadech : Tu f f Psalm . 109. es Sacerdos socundum ordinem Melchisadech ; Of which poynt the goldentonged Father thus wryteth : Videns g g Chrysostome . homil. 35. in Genes. typum , cogita ( oro ) veritatem : Thus Christ was the supreme Priest ; Man , but the Ministeriall Priest . O how reuerently do the auncient Fathers speake of Priesthood ? Nazianzene tearmeth a Priest , the Mediatour betweene God and Man . Chrysostome (h) Epist. 8. ad Simplicium . honored Prieshood so much , as that he did wryte a booke , entituling it : De Sacerdotio ; among infinit other passages of which subiect , he thus saith : Non Angelus , non Archangelus , non alia quaeuis creata potentia ; sed ipso Paracle●us Ordinem eiusmodi disposuit : Neither Angel , nor Archangell , nor any created Power ; but only our Aduocate & Comforter ( Meaning Christ ) did institute this Order of Pryesthood . Ambrose in like sort did wryte of this subiect ; styling his Treatise : De dignitate Sacerdotale ; In which booke , speaking of the manner how a Priest is created , thus wryteth in the first Chapter thereof : Homo imponit manum , Deus langitur gratium ; Sacerdos imponit simplicem dexteram , Deus benedicit potenti dexiera : Man doth impose the hand , but God giueth the grace , The Priest doth lay his humble hand ( meaning , vpon hym , who is to be made Pryest ) But God doth blesse with his pouerfull hand . Leo the first , thus worthely wryteth hereof : Omnium i i Epist. ad Anastasium . Sacerdotum tam excellens est electio , vt haec , quae in alijs membris Ecclesiae vacant a culpa , in illis tamen habeantur illicita : The state of all Pryests is so noble , as that some things theare are ( meaning , mariadge of Pryests ) which being lawfull in other members of the Church , are neuerthelesse prohibited in them . To be short , Pac●nus thus amplifieth vpon this poynt : k k Epist. 3. ad Symphronianum . Plebi vnde Spiritus , quam non consignat vnctus Sacerdos ? How can that Society or company of Men receaue the Holy Ghost , if the annoynted Priest doth not signe & blesse them ?

Thus farre in generall of the dignity of Pryesthood , which I hope in modesty , and without the lest tuche of Vanity , I may alledge ; forbearinge many more authorityes of lyke nature ; lest my producing of them might be misconstiued ( my selfe being a Priest , and therefore interressed in them ) by some one or other deprauing tongue .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

What you haue heare [ Michaeas ] alledged out of Antiquity in honour of Priesthood , we willingly acknowledge ; since it was then ment , and now is truly applyed to the Ministers of the Ghospell , and others of the faythfull ( in regard of the spirituall sacrifices of Prayer , dayly offered vp by them ) who therefore in a metaphorical and improper acceptance of the word : Pryest ( and as the phraze is , ) are tearmed Pryests .

MICHAEAS .

M. Vice-Chancelour You are fowly mistaken heerein , & willing ( it seemes ) you are to vendicate to your owne Ministerial function the prayses due to Priesthood . But I hope , you will stand to the iudgment of S. Austin and other Fathers herein . S. Austin then thus speaketh of this poynt : l l Lib. de ciui● . Dei 20. c. 10. Soli Episcopi & Presbiteri propriè vocantur in Ecclesia Sacerdot s. Thus Austin by expressely calling Bishops & Presbyters only Priests , excludeth this secondary and improper signification of the word Priest , which you seeme heare to mantayne ; and which in your sense may be truly extended to Weomen , who offer vp the Sacrifice or prayer to God , as well as Men. And according hereto it is , that Ireneus , m m Lib. 4. c. 20. acknowledging with you , that in a restrayned sense all iust Men may be called Priests doth further teach a peculiar Pryesthood of the Apostles ( different from the former kynd of Pryesthood ) which ( saith he ) dayly attends vpon God and the Altar . And hence also it is , that the greeke Word : 〈…〉 ereus , which properly signifieth : Sacerdos , is applyed to Christian Pryests by n n Lib. 3. c. 32. Eusebius , o o Lib. de viris illustrib . Ierome , p p In epist. ad Smirnenses . Ignatius , and finally ( to omit others ) by q q De Eccles. Hierarch . c 5. Dionysius Areopagita . I may ad in further warrant of this Truth , that the auncient Fathers do make frequent mention of Altars , now to be in the Church of Christ . But the word : Altar , hath euen by the confession of D. r r In his Conference with M. Har● . p. 55. Raynolds a necessary and inseparable reference to the words : Pryest , and Sacrifice , as they are taken in their proper and naturall signification ; since they are Relatiues , And seing euery Altar hath a relation to a true and real Sacrifice , and to a Pryest , as the Word is properly taken , and as the said Pryest doth offer vp a true and reall Sacrifice . That the Fathers do often mention Altars , now to be in the Church of Christ , you may [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] peruse , s s De ciuitat . Dei lib. 8. c. vlt. & l. 22. c. 8. Austin , t t Lib. 6. de Sacerdotio , & homil. 53. ad populum . Chrisostome , u u Lib 6. contra Parmen●anum . Optatus , x x Cap. 3. Eccles. Hierarch . Dyonisius Areo pogita , and finally the y y Canon . 3. & 4. Canons of the Apostles .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Howsoeuer the Primatiue Fathers may take the word ; Priest , It is not much materiall to vs , who heere relye only vpon the pure word of God , interpreted to vs by the Holy Ghost : yet sure I am , that Those Priests , ( who come into England ) do arrogate vnto themselues a dooble Prerogatiue , of which all Antiquity was wholy ignorant . The first is , in vndertaking to reconcile men to the Pope , ( our states designed enemy . ) And so by this meanes , to alienate them in their allegiance from their owne natiue Prince and soueraigne : The second , in assuming to them power to offer vp in the Masse , the body & bloud of Christ : Which once for all was offered vp for the whole world vpon the Crosse . Now both these attempts are deseruedly punished by our Lawes , for their acrocityes therein committed ; And to the daunger ( decreed against them ) your selfe [ Michaeas ] rests obnoxious ; seing you ( being a Priest ) haue no doubt often practized them both , since your arriuall into England .

MICHAEAS .

It is wonderfull to obserue how Malice ( taking the place of Ignorance ) seeleth vp Mans iudgment for I presume [ M. Vice-Chancelour . ] You cannot be ignorant of the vntruth of these your assertions . Therefore for the better satisfying of you ( Myreuerend Iudge ) whom in all reason and duty I am bound to satisfy . You are heere to know , that what M. Vice-Chancelour calleth reconciling to the Pope , is nothing els , but an incorporating of one into Christ Church ( if so afore he was no member thereof ) by Confession of his sinnes , ( accompanied with a resolution neuer to sinne more ) to a Catholicke Priest , and absolution thereof giuen by the said Priest ; Or if he were afore a branch of the said Mysticall Body , then is this M. Vice-Chancelour reconciling , a meere penitent Confession of our sinnes to a Catholicke Priest ; attended on with an absolution from the said sinnes : By force of which Sacrament , we ouercome him , who is inuincible , and restrayne him , who is Omnipotent .

Now heare I demand in all sincerity , how these spirituall Actions of a penitent sinner may be reputed preiudiciall to his Loyalty to his Prince ? Or what necessary reference hath the one to the other ? Or shall we thinke , that in Catholicke Countryes ( for the reason is the same of Catholicks , liuing either in Catholicke or Protestante Countries ) one renounceth his Loyalty to his Prince , by recurring to this spirituall physick , for the curing of his soules disseases ? Alas ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) I much greiue , to see you thus drunke ( as I may say ) with malice , as to forge such strange and forced interpretations of the Priests and Catholicks proceedings hearein . And I pray you , how can it be conceaued ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) that our prop●●quity towards God ( for such a nearnes is wrought , by a true & penitent Confession ) should be presumed to cause a greater distance of our obedience from our Prince ? and that our state of grace in the sight of God , should be censured as a state of Disloyalty in the eye of Man ? No. The case is mearly contrary to your supposall . For since absolute Princes are the Vicegerents of God , and in that respect are tearmed Gods : a a Psalm . 81 Ego dixi dij estis . And since we are bound to obey our Prince , euen propter b b Rom. ●3 . conscientiam : Therefore we may truly inferre , that a fearefull Conscience , loath to offend God , or through f 〈…〉 ty offending ; yet willing by the Sacrament of pennance & absolu●ion to expiate it sinns , is euer most ready to performe it d 〈…〉 y ( 〈…〉 en for feare of Gods displeasure ) to 〈◊〉 soueraigne . And that such Men , as want this ten ●ernes of conscience , ●●e loyall subiects so long only , as their owne temporall and humane respects do comport with this their loyalty .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

You speake much [ Michaeas ] of your Priestly function , in absoluing of sinnes , confessed . But you should prooue ( if you can ) since it is most materiall ; that such Men , as were tearmed Priests in the Primatiue Church , did heare the confessions of other Mens sinnes , and did giue absolution of them , so confessed . And if you cannot make this good , from the Precedents of those firster and purer tymes ; we must then rest assured , that this your assumed authority , is but a meere Innouation , ingendred betweene the pryde of the Priest ( taking vpon him Gods person heerein for we read : Quis potest dimittere peccata , nisi solus Deus ? Marc. 2. ) and the scrupulous superstition of the confessed Penitent .

MICHAEAS .

It is true , that only God originally , primatiuely , and immediatly remitteth sinne ; and in this sense the Scripture speaketh of only God remitting of sinne ; yet is his diuine Maiesty pleased to vse Man , as his instrument therein , according to those words of our Sauiour to the Apostles : d d Iohn . 20. Whose sinnes you shall forgiue , they are forgiuen ; and whos● sinnes you shall retayne , they are retayned . From which passage we further inferre , that seing some sinnes are to be retayne● , and not remitted ; it followeth inauoydably , that we are obliged particularly and distinctly to confesse our sinnes to the Priest . For how can the Priest know , what sinnes are to be retayned , and what sinnes to be remitted , except he know , which the sinnes be in particular ? Ad heereto , that if God vouchsafest to vse Water ( a creature much more base , then Man ) as his instrument , for the taking away of Originall sinne ; then much more may Man , as his instrument , and receauing his authority heerein from the words of Christ , and from his Passion ( which giue force and efficacy to ●ich Sacrament , now in the tyme of grace ) practize without sacriledge the same authority .

that the auncient Fathers of the Primatiue Church ( contrary to your former bold assertion , M. Vice-Chancelour ) did concordantly teach & practize our Catholicke doctrine herein , is most euident . I will not ouerwhelme you with multitude of their testimonyes ( though all of them are most luxuriant in such their sentences ) therefore th●●e or foure of them , and such as are most auncient , shall serue . Heere then first , I will produce the words of Saint Basill , thus wryting : e e In quaestionib . breu 〈…〉 b. interiogat . 288. Necessario peccata ijs apperiri debent , quibus credita est dispensatio mysteriorum Dei ▪ si quidem rationem hanc in paerite●●ia etiam veteres illos ●ernimus secutos fuisse . Our sinnes ought of necessity to be reuealed to them , to whom is committed the dispensing and distribution of the mysteries of God ; And th●s● ou se in Pennance we do find , that the auncient Christians did follow . Thus we see , that this authority and words of Saint Basill simply a necessity of confession of our sinnes to the Priest ; and consequently a particular relation of them . Saint Leo thus conspireth with Saint Basill : Cum f f Epist. 88 ad Episcopos Campaniae . reatus conscientiarum sufficiat solis Sacerdotibus iudicari confessione s●creta &c. Seing it is sufficient ; that the guiltines of our consciences be made knowne only to Priests , in secret confession &c. where you may see , that confession of sinnes in those dayes was made secret , and only vnto Priests . Saint Austin thus agreeth with the former Fathers : Non solum * * Lib. homil. l homil. 41. post paenitentiam &c. Not only after Pennance is prescribed , a Man ought to keepe himselfe from those vices ; but also before pennance , whiles he is sound ; who if he should deferre it all his last end , Nescit , si ipsam p●nitentiam accipere , & De● , & Sacerdoti peccata sua confiteri poterit ; He knoweth not ; whether he shall haue power to receaue his pennance , and to confesse his sinnes to God , and to a Priest .

S. Cyprian thus wryteth of this poynt : g g Serm. 5 de lapsis . quantò fide maiore & timore meliore sunt , qui quantum●●uis nullo sacrifi●ij aut libelli faci●ore constricti ; quontam tomen de hoc vel cogitauerunt , hoc ipsum apud Sacerdotes Dei volenter & simpliciter confidentes , exomologesni conscientiae faciunt ; animi pondus expenum , salut●rem meaelam paruis licet & modicis vulneribus exquirunt ? How much more greater fayth and better feare haue they , who though they be not guilty of any cryme touching Sacrifice , or giuing vp a Libel ; yet because they had such a conceate or thought , they do with greiffe and simplicity confesse this to Priests &c. Thus do they disburden their consciences , and seeke to apply a healthfull remedy to their small wounds ? Now heere by the words : Sacrifice , and Libel , are to be vnderstood , sacrifizing to Idolls in the tymes of the Heathen Emperours , and giuing vp their names in a booke , that they were content to sacrifize .

To be short , Tertullian thus sayth of this custome of confessing our sinnes to a Priest . Plerosque hoc opus aut subfugere , aut (h) Lib. de Penitentia . de die in diem differie presumo , pudor●● magis memores , quam salutis ; velut illi , qui in partibus verecundieribus corporis , contracta vaxatione , scientiam Medentium vitant , & ita cum e●●bescentia sua pereunt : I do presume , that diuers do eyther anoyd this worke ( meaning of confessine their sinnes ) or do deferre 〈◊〉 from day to day ; being more mindfull of their shame , then of their health : They being heerein like to those Men , who hauing some dis●●se in their more secret parts of their body , do flee the cure of Physitians ; and so they perish through their owne shame . Thus Tertullian , from whose testimony is necessarily euicted particular confession of our priuat sinnes , euen according to the nature of his similitude heere vsed .

This point of the auncient Fathers iudgment touching confession of our particular sinnes to a Priest , is so deere and manifest , that the Centurists discoursing of the vse thereof , in those former tymes , thus plainly acknowledge : i i Cent. 3. cap 6. col. 127. Si quis paenitentiam agebant peccatum prius confirebantur . ac enim confessionem magnoperè Tertullianus vrget in libro de P●nitentia ; & institutem fuisse priuatam Confessionem , qua delicta & cogitata praua confessisunt , ex aliquot Cypriani locis apparet . &c. Yf any in those tymes did pennance ; they did first confesse there sinn●e : for thus doth Tertullian mightely vrge Confession in his booke de Paenitentia : And that priuate Confession was then in vse , by the which sinnes & euen wicked thoughts were confessed , appeareth from certaine places of Cyprian ; to wit , out of his fift sermon de Lapsis , & lib. 3. Epist. epist. 14. and 16. Thus farre the Centurists ( all eminent Protestants ) who ( we see ) do grant , that in those tymes , euen priuat thoughts ( much more particular actu●ll sinnes ) were accustomed to be confessed . Which Centurists do further witnesse , that the Priest did in those tymes , absolue the penitent ( besides by pronouncing the words of Absolution ) with the Ceremony * * Cent. 3. col. 127. of imposing her hand : a ceremony , which at this very day , is vsed by the Priests . And thus ( My Honorable Lord , and you M. Vice-Chancelour ) you both may from hence perceaue , how neere to the Apostles dayes Confession of particular sinnes ( euen by the acknowledgment of the Protestants ) was vsually practized : Which point being granted , it must by force of all Re●son follow , that Christ did first institute this Sacrament of Confession , and the Apostles did first exercize their authority therein , giuen to them by Christ . Since otherwise it cannot probably be conceaued , that a dogmaticall point of fayth and Religion , so crosse and repugnant to Mans nature ( as Confession is , could in so short a tyme , inuade the whole Church of God , without any contradiction or resistance .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

Michaeas , you haue spoken much in warrant of Confession and Asolution , geuen by the Pryest . But the question ( in regard of your former alledged authorityes ) is not so much , whether Confession of particular sinns was generally taught by those auncient Fathers ; as whether they had iust reason and warrant so to teach ? But I will passe no censure of them , touching this point . But [ Michaeas ] what do you say to that assumed authority and priuiledge , which you Pryests vendicate to yourselfes , in the sacrifice of the Masse ? Wheare you bease the people in hand , that you sacrifize and offer vp the true and naturall body and bloud of Christ to his Father . I am assured , that the auncient Church of God cannot affoard you any example hereof ; And the rather , since it is manifest , that the doctrine of Transubstantiation ( vpon which your doctrine of sacrifice is grounded ) was first brought into the Church , at the Councell of Lateran by Innocentius the third ; Which Councell was houlden anno ●215 . And therefore it was celebrated many hundred yeres , after the Period of the Primatiue Church .

MICHAEAS .

M. Vice-Chancelour The sequ●le will show of what Antiquitie the doctrine is conce●ning the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ . Which is dayly offered vp by the Priest . But first , I will take away your stumbling block , touching the name of Transubstantiation , imposed by the Councell of Lateran . For the better remouall whereof , you are to conceaue , that the doctrine of the re●ll being of Christs body and bloud in the Sacrament of the 〈◊〉 , and Sacrifice of the Masse was taught , in all the precedentages ; though the word : Transubstantiation , ( for the better explicating of the doctryne , was then ( and not before ) inuented : Euen as the doctrine of the Trinity , was eue● in the first infancy of the Church generally beleeued ; yet the word ; Trinity , was first imposed vpon the doctrine , by Councell of Nice .

But to proceede further , touching the Antiquity of the doctryne of the sacrifice of the Masse . We first answeare herto , that it receaued it first institution and beginning , euen from the night before , the Creatour of all flesh did suffer in flesh . For our Sauiour being at his last suffer , did then first institute it , when ●e deliuered to his Apostles his owne body and bloud , saying : This is my body . This is my Bloud &c. With reference to which institution , the Apostle calleth the table ( vpon which this sacrifice is made , k k Heb● 13. _____ to wit an Altar , being deriued of the verb. _____ signifying : Sacrifice . But let vs see in what dialect Antiquity speaketh hereof . Some few places ( among infinit ) I will heare select : first then we find S Austin thus to say : Quid l l Lib. 4. de Trinitate c. 1● . gratius osserria●t s●scipi possit , quam c●r● sacrificij nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri ? What can be offered vp , or accepted more thankfully , then the flesh of our sacrifi● being made the body of our Priest ? Chrysostome thus wryteth : Per m m Lib. 6. de Sacerdotio . id tempus & Angeli Sacerdoti assident &c. At that tyme the Angells draw neare vnto the Pryest , and the whole order of the heauenly Powers causeth greate voyces , and the place neare vnto the Al●●r is full of q●ears of Angells ( in illius honorem , qui in●molatur ) by reason of the honour of hym , who is theare 〈…〉 d or offered vp ; which thing we may fully beleiue , ( vel extanto illi sacrificio , quod iunc peragitur ) in regard of so great a sacrifice then performed Gregory Nyssene : Dominus n n Orat. de resur●e & . praeoccupans impetum iudeorum &c. Our Lord preuenting the violence of the Iewes , being both Priest and Lambe , made hymselfe a sacrifice . But thou demandest of me when this did happen ? Euen then , when he gaue to his disciples his body to eate , and his bloud to drink .

Optatus Miliuitanus thus discourseth : Quid est tam sacrilegum , quam altaria ●ei , in quibus aliquando nos obtulistis , (o) Lib. 6. contra Parmenianum . frangere , radre , & 〈…〉 e ? in quïbus vot a Populi , & membra Christi partata s●ni &c What is so sacrilegious , as to breake , or scrape , or to remoue and take away the Alt●●s of God ? vpon which your selfs somtymes haue offered ; in the which the vowes of the People , and the members of Christ are borne . And further the said Father : Quid * * Optatus v●● supra . est altari nisi sides corporis & sanguints Christi ? What is the Altar , but the seate of the body and bloud of Christ ?

S. Ambrose : Etsi p p in psal. 38. nunc Christus non videatur offerre : ipse tamen ●ffertur in terris , cum corpus eius offertur . And againe : Cum q q In c. 〈◊〉 . Lucae . Sacrisicamus , Christus est presens , Christus immolatur : When we do sacrifize , Christ is present , Christ is sacrifized or immolated .

Ephrem : Quid r r De Natura Dei min 〈…〉 scrutanda cap. 5. scrutaris inscrutabilia &c : Why dos● thou search into things , not to be searched after &c. Be thou faythfull and innocent , and participate thou of the immaculate body of thy Lord , with a most full fayth : being assured , that thou dost eate the whole Lambe .

Cyprian : Caena s s Serm de caena Domini . disposita inter Sacramentales epu●as &c. The supper being prepared , the auncient and new Institutions did meete together among the Sacramentall 〈◊〉 eats ; And the Lambe , which auncient Tradition did set vpon the table , being cons●med , the Maister doth giue to his Disciples an inconsumption meate .

Tertulian t t Lib. de pae●iten●a . and Dionisius u u Cap. 3. Eccles. Hierarch . make frequent mention of Altars , and consequently of Sacrifice :

To conclude this passage ( as auoyding prolexity ) Eyppolitus Martyr introduceth Christ speaking to Bishops and Pryests in these words : u u Orat. de An●christo . Venite Pontifices & Sacerdotes , qui praeciosum corpus & sanguinem meum quo●die immolastis : Come hither , you● h●●fe Pryests and other Pryests , who haue dayly immoluted and offered vp my precious body and bloud .

Now ( M. Vice Chancelour ) in regard of the perspic●ity of thes sentences of the former Fathers , and of diuers others such authorityes of the said and other ●athers of the Primatiue Church ( heare through br 〈…〉 y prete●nitted ) It is the lesse wonder , that your owne learned Protestants do ingenuously confesse the truth of those Fathers iudgments hearin . For ( to omit , that the * * Cent. 4. c. 4. col. 295. Centurists do particularly charge S. Ambrose , with this very phraze : Massam 〈…〉 ere , vsed by vs Pryests at this very day ) do wee not fine Calumn himselfe thus to acknoledge of them in generall ? x x Lib. 4. Instit c. 18. sect. 12. Veteres illos video &c. I do see , that those auncient Fathers did wrest the memory of the Lords supper otherwyse , then was agreeing to the institution of the Lord . Since the Fathers supper did beare the show and resemblance of a renewed Oblation &c they imitating more nearely the 〈◊〉 maner of sacrificing , then either Christ did ordayne , or the nature of the Gospell would suffer . And hereupon it is , that Caluin in an other place , thus chargeth the Fathers : y y In omnibus Pauli Epist. in Hebr. c. 7. The Fathers did adulterate the supper of the Lord , by adding of Sacrifice vnto it . Neither can theese words of Caluin be restrayned to those Fathers only , who liued either in the midest , or towards the end of the Primatiue Church : First because they are deliuered ( without exception ) of the Fathers in generall ; Secondly , by reason that other learned Protestants do charge the Fathers ( some of them liuing immediatly after the Apostles ; others 〈…〉 g euen in the dayes of the Apostles ) with the said doctrine of sacrifice . Thus ( consorting hearto ) we find Sebastianus Francus ( an eminent Protestant ) to vse theese words : z z In epist . de a●rogandis in vniuersum omnebus statut . Ecclesiast Statim post Apostolos , omnia inuersa sunt &c. Presently after the Apostles departure , all things were inuerted &c. Et caena Domini in sacrificium transf●rmata est , and the supper of the Lord was changed into a sacrifice . But Hospinian ( that famous Protestant ) useth higher in tyme , thus confessing : a a Histor. Sacrament . l. 1. c. 6. p. 20. I am tum primo illo seculo , viuentibus adhuc Apostolts &c. Even in the very first age ( the Apostles yet liuing ) the deuill labored to seduce Men more about this Sacrament ( meaning , touching the ●athers supposed adding of sacrifice to the Sacrament of the Eucharist ) Then about Baptisme , withdrawing Men from the first former thereof . Thus farre of the Fathers cleare sentences , and of the learned Protestants confessing no lesse , touching the doctrine of Sacrifice .

VICEC-HANCELOVR .

It l●tle preiudizeth vs [ Michaas ] who professe the Ghospell though the Fathers did teach the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse . For seing it is granted , ( both by vs and you Papists ) that diuers Fathers erred in other paticular poynts , why might they not alyke erre in the doctrine of the Sacrifice ? And seing we are not obliged to embrace their other acknowledged Errours ; why should we be forced to entertaine this their errour .

MICHAEAS

O [ M. Vice-Chancelour , ] the difference is great , and subiect (b) Vide August . in Haeresi 43. & 46. Hieronym . in lib. contra Iouinianum & Vi●ilātium . Vide Epiphanium lib. de Haeresibus . euen to a vulgar iudgment . For we grant with you , that some particular Fathers did e 〈…〉 certaine poynts ; yet were those their errours presently condemned and written against , by other Ortodoxall Fathers . Thus for exemple , did Austin , Ierome , and Epiphanius wryte against Origen , teaching that the Deuills were at the last day to be saued ; against Tertullian , denying second Mariadges ; against Cyprian , mantayning Rebaptization .

Now heare wee grant , that such particular Fathers might and did errein such particular poynts . But the Case 〈…〉 otherwyse , When many of the cheife Pastours and Father 〈…〉 seuerall Ages of the Primatiue Church do concurrently teach a poynt of doctrine , as an Article of fayth ; And that they are not contradicted by any other of the Fathers , for their mantayning of the said doctrine ; And in this sort is the former doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse , taught without any opposition at all , not only by the former alledged Fathers , but by many others ( or rather all othors ) for breuiuy heare omitted .

Now in this Case [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] we Catholicks do hould , that such their doctryne so ioyntly by the Fathers taught ( without any contradiction ) is most agreable to Gods word . For seing the Fathers of the Primatiue Church , were in those dayes the cheife Pastours of Christs Church ; Yf they should ioyntly ●rre● in fayth , then would it follow , that the whole Visible Church of God should erre : an assertion most repugnant to the promisse of our Sauiour : c c Math. 16. Super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam ; Et portae Inferi non praualebant aduersus eam ) and to that honerable title giuen to the Church by the Apostle styling it : d d 1. Tim. 3. columna & firmamentum veritatis .

Now what reuerence and respect we are to giue to the Primatiue Church , and how we are to conceaue of the authority of it , I will ( for the closure of this passage ) referre you [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] to the sentences of your own Brethreh , being most learned and remarkable Protestants ; & from whose iudgment therefore herein , you cannot without great branch of modesty decline . First then we find Kempnitius thus to aduance the authority of the Primatiue Church : We e e Examen Concil. Trident. part. 1. p. 74. doubt not , but that the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles & Apostolicall Men , not only the text of the Scripture ; but also the right and natiue sense thereof . The confession of Bohemia thus magnifyeth the same : The f f In the Harmonyes of Confess . pag. 400. auncient Church is the true and best Mistres of Posterity ; and going before , leadeth vs the way . Finally D. Iewell is no lesse sparing in his prayses heereof , saying : g g In his defence of the Apology● . The Primatiue Church , which was vnder the Apostles and Martyrs , hath e 〈…〉 r a been accounted the purest of all others without exception . Such transcendency of speeches ( you see ) your owne more sober and learned Brethren are not afrayd to ascrybe , to the Fathers of those primatiue tymes .

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

Michaas , I grant , you haue spoken fully in defence of your owne state , and of the seuerall offices thereof , practized by you 〈…〉 ) Act. 〈◊〉 . Priests . And though I will not say like to Agrippa : (h) A little you haue persuaded me , to become a Catholicke ; yet I must ingenuously acknowledge , I neuer heard a cause of this Nature , with stronger & better arguments defended ; Yet for the more perfect balan●●g and weighing the force of your authorityes ( my selfe not being conuersant in the written Monuments of the auncient Fathers ) I must remit this poynt , to the more mature disquisition of our learned Deuins .

MICHAEAS .

Though your Lordship will not apply to your selfe , the fore-said words of Agrippa ; yet I will make bould to reply to you ( such is my charitable wishing of your chiefest good ) in the phraze of S. Paul to Agrippa : I i i Act. vbi supra . wish to God , both in little & much , that your L. were such as I am , except this my wat of liberty .

But my worthy Lord . Here now begmneth the Tragedy of the disconsolate and mournefull state of Priests and Catholicks in this Country . You haue heard [ my L. ] of the Antiquity of Priesthood ; of the like antiquity of the Sacrament of Confession and Pennance ; and lsstly of the antiquity of the most holy sacrifice of the Masse . And yet notwithstanding all this , it is decreed ( as your L. well knowes ) by the pennall lawes of this Country , that Priesthood shal be Treason ; the releiuing of any one such Priest , death to the Releiuer ; Confession of our sinns to a Priest , and absolution of them , reputed to be in the Penitent a renouncing of his Loyalty ; and the hearing of Masse , attended on with a great fine of siluer . And thus by these means , euery good Priest and Catholicke are ( at the first sight ) become Statute traytours . And indeed such is the case heere , that neither Priest nor Catholicke can ( with safety of conscience ) giue any yeelding obedience and satisfaction to the Magistrate , touching those lawes ; since here not to offend , were to offend : k k Act. 〈◊〉 Obedire oportet Dee magis , quam hominibus .

And touching my selfe , and other Priests in particular ; your L. is to take notice , that ( not speaking of our Blessed Sauiour , who was the first Priest , nor of his Apostles , succeeding him therein ) most of the auncient Fathers were Priests , enioying the same Priesthood , practizing the same function in hearing of Confessions , absoluing the Penitents , & saying of Masse , which the meanest Priest of England at this day doth . Therefore your Lordship may truly suppose . That before you at this present , stand arraigned ( only for being Priests , & exercizing that their function ) S. Austin , S. Ambrose , S. Ierome , S Cyprian , S. Athanasius , S. Chrysostome , S. Ignatius , and many more of those primatiue blessed Doctours . What I am , they were : I stand but here , as their Image ; and they are personated in me . Neither can you impleade or condemne me , but that your sentence must ( through my sides ) wound them : so indis●oluble an vnion there is betweene their stares & myne ; no other difference betwene vs , but difference of tymes .

But my good Lord . To passe on further to the despicable & detected state of Lay Catholicks ( a theame not vnseasonable at these tymes ) I will not insist in particularizing the pennall statuts decreed agaynst them . Neuerthelesle my tongue ( vnder your L. licence ) can hardly pretermit one point in silence .

Among then so many Calamityes and vexations ( wherewith on eich syde they stand plunged ) Not any one pressure is more insufferable to them , or more opprob●●ous in the eares of strangers ( who are ready to trumpet forth the same , to the irreparable dishonour of this noble Nation ; otherwise famous throughout all Christendome ) Then to obserue the houses of Catholicks , to lye open to the search of the Common & base Pusu●uants : Who vnder colour of looking for a Priest , do enter their houses at most vnseasonable tymes , euen by force : And there opening their Trunks & Chests : perusing their Euidences of their Estats : taking the Maysters of the houses , bound in great sommes of money , for their after appearance in Courts of Iustice : and violently breaking downe , what may seeme to withstand their present furye ; do by strong hand , cary away any gold , siluer , Iewells , Plate , or any other portable thing of worth ; And all this vnder the pretext of them , being forfeyted through Recusancy ; And the least resistance agaynst these men here made , is punished as an Act of Disloyalty . Neither are any English Catholicks ( the Nobility excepted ) free from these Indignityes ; the dead pittylesse law herein promiscuously taking hold of all without difference . Now my Honorable Lord , Is it not a thing deseruing astonishment & amazement , to see in a most noble Country ( where the Ghospell , which forbiddeth all Rapine , is presumed to be truly preached ) that men free & not borne Bondslaues , should thus in body and state ( only for feare of offending God , and desire of sauing their soules ) lye prostrate , to the depradations & robberyes of certaine hungery Refuse and Outcasts of men ? who make show at least ( though wrongfully ) to warrant all these their pillages , by force of the statute Law ; though otherwise prohibited by all Diuine and humane Law : l l Thren● 〈◊〉 Si est dolor , sicut dolor horum ? And if it fortune , that any Priest be taken , or Recusants do appeare ; then is the Pryest assured , and the Catholicks in danger , to be committed to a darke and loathsome prison ; there to remayne ( the Priest sometymes in fettars ) so long , as it shall please the subordinate Magistrate ; His Maiesty , who is most proue to mercy , pitty , and commiseration , being wholy ignorant of such outrages and proceedings .

But My Lord . How base so euer the Priests & Catholicks of England seeme to be in the eyes of their Aduersaryes ; yet no doubt their state is most gratefull ( through this their imprisonment ) in the sight of God , and honorable in the iudgment of all foraine Catholicke nations ; who in regard of the others endurance , may iustly apply to the said imprisoned Priests & Catholicks , that sentence of a most auncient Father : * * Tertul. ad Martyres . Carcer habet tenebras , sed lumen estis ipsi ; habet vincula , sed vos soluti Deo estis ; triste illic expirat , sed vos odor estis suauitatis .

LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

Theese exorbitancyes of proceedings ( Michaeas . ) whereof you speake ( if any such be ) the Law chastizeth , and the Offendours are punishable ; neither doth the supreme Magistrat geue allowance of them . Yet heare ( Michaeas ) you are to remember , that though wrong be not to be recompensed with wrong , and Cruelty , with Iniustice , The tymes haue bene ( I meane , in the reigne of Queene Marie ) When the Professours of our Religion did not only suffer losse of Goods , but euen death itselfe . And therefore there appeareth lesse reason , why you Romanists should so tragically complayne at your present afflictions : Since in so doing , you are lyke to those Men , who perpe●rate impietyes , yet expostulate of Wrong .

MICHAEAS .

Indeede ( my Lord ) I grant , that this is the vulgar recrimination , often vrged and reinforced by the Protestants , for the more depressing of our pressures in the eye of others ; yet though I will not vndertake the defence of all the procedures of those tymes ( myselfe being a stranger both to the Nation , and to the affayres of those dayes ) Neuerthelesse let it not be offensiue vnto you ( my honerable Lord ) if I vnfould the reason , why such actions in that Queens tyme , may stand lesse subiect to the censure of an iniustifiable punishment , then theese in the dayes of Queene Elizabeth , and since . The reason is this . In Q. Mar●es tyme , the Professours of any Religion , different from the Catholicke and Roman Religion , were punished by certaine Canon and Imperiall Lawes , made by most auncient Popes & Emperours ; they not then hauing any forknowledg , that Protestancy should rather sway in these dayes , then any other erroneous fayth . And this they did , in regard that all such different Religions were reputed and ●oulden , as Innouations , and most repugnant to the auncient Catholicke fayth . Now that Protestancy was to be accounted in Queenes Maryes reigne a mere Innouation in faith , ( as well as any other sect ) appeareth euen from the free acknowledgment of the learned Protestants ; who teach expressly , that for theese foureteene , or fyfteene hundred yeeres , the Protestant fayth was neuer so much as heard or thought of , till Luthers dayes . I will heare content myselfe ( for greater breuity ) with the authorityes of two or three Protestants . Do we not then find M. Parkins thus to confesse hereof ? For m m In his exposition of the Creed . many hundred yeres , our Church was not visible to the World ; an vniuersal Apostasy ouer spreading the whole face of the Earth . And doth not Sebastianus Francus ( the Protestant ) confesse the same in theese words ? n n In epist. de abrogandis in vniuersum omnibus statut . Ecclesiast For certaine the externall Church togeather with the Sacramenti vanished away , presently after the Apostles departure ; and that for theese foureteene hundred yeres , the Church hath not beene externall and Visible . In lyke sort D. Fulke , speaking of the Protestant Church , doth he not thus wryte ? * * In his answere to a Counterfeyte Catholick pag. 35 The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes : A verity confessed by Luther hymselfe , thus vaunting of his owne supposed true faith : o o Luth. epist. ad A● entinens . Christum anobis primo vulga●um audemus gloriari ; We dare boast , that Christ was first preached by vs . Thus then we see , that Protestancy was punished in Q. Maryes reigne , as an Innouation in fayth and religion , neuer afore that tyme dreamed of . But now the case is farre otherwise , touching the afflictions layed vpon the Catholicks , for professing of their fayth : since they are punished by certaine Parlamental statuts only , decreed not past some threescore yeres since , by the authority of a Woman Prince , against a religion which ( by the learned Aduersaries lyke acknowledgment ) hath possessed all Christendome theese many hundred yeres ; and indeed so many hundred yeres , as the Protestant Church is confessed by them to haue bene latent and inuisible ; And therefore those stat●●s were decreed not against the Catholicke Religion , as against an Innouation ; but as against the ( till then ) only and sole Religion , professed by all the Christia●s , through out the whole world . To this end we find M. Napper ( a learned Protestant ) thus acknowledging p p In his treatise vpon the Reuelat. p. 68. Betweene the yeres of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian & Papisticall reigne began , reigning vniuersally without any debatible contradiction one thousand , two hundred , & sixty yeres . And as conspiring with the former Protestant herein , the q q See of this point the Centurists , in Cent. 4. & so in euery succ●eding Century . Centurists do euen from the tymes of Constantyne , charge both hym , and euery age and Century since , till Luthers dayes , with the Profession of our present Roman Religion .

Thus now your Lordship may clearly discouer the greate disparity , betwene the proceedings of Queene Mary , and Q. Elizabeth . Since in the former Queens tyme , the Lawes , wheareby Sectaries were punished for their Religion , were instituted many hundred yeres since : In this later Q. raigne the Statuts were first made at the beginning of her comming to the Crowne ; which is yet in the memory of eich Man , being but of reasonable greate yeres . Those lawes were enacted by Popes and generall 1 1 See Concil. Laodicens . can. 31. 32. 33. Concil. Cartha . canon . 16. ●ouncells ( to whose charge and incumbency the burden of Religion is peculiarly by God committed ) secunded otherwise by the secular authority of 2 2 L. Ariani , c. de Haereticis . L. cuncti Haeret. L. Man●chaei Emperours , and particularly of ( 〈◊〉 ) Valentinian and Marcian : Theese were first inuented by a Woman , and a Parlament of Lay Persons : the incompetent iudges of fayth and Religion . Breifly , by the former Decrees a Religion , confessed by the cheife Professours of it , to be neuer heard of , at lest for foureteene hundred yeres together ( and thearefore to be an innouation of fayth which is held by Catholicks to be a destruction of fayth necessary to Soules health ) is interdicted and prohibited : By theese later , a Religion ( confesse●ly by it greatest Enemyes ) (3) Valentinian & Marcian decreed obstinate Hereticks to be punished with death of which Law see Concil. Chalcedon . Act. 1. practized vniuersally throughout all Christendome , the space of the aforesaid foureteene hundred yeres and by the learneder sort of Protestants graunted to be sufficient to Saluation is punished with losse of Goods and 〈◊〉 , in p 〈…〉 sonment to the Professours of it , and death to the Priests and 〈…〉 ers of them : r r Psalm 103. Quantum dist at Orius ab Occas● ? And heare I cannot omit to rehearse , how the said Queene Elizabeth , among other her lyke pious and charitable deeds ( that so theare might a sutablenes in her Actions ) was not afrayd ( contrary to the law of God , contrary to the law of Nation , contrary to her owne solemne vowe and promise afore giuen in that behalfe , contrary to the pitifull flexure of her owne Sex ; and finally contrary to all Nature , Honour , and Religion ) to detayne by force , to imprison , to be●cade , her owne nearest kinswoman and immediate Successour ; A Princes , a Catholicke Queene of incompatable excellencyes and vertues ; Mother ( and therein the other Q. greater atrocitye ) to the late deceased Kinge of famous Memory , and Grandmother to his Maiesty ; that now is . — s s Virg. Aenad . Quis talia faud● Myrmidonum , Dolopumue , aut ●uri milles Vlyssis , temperet a lacrimis ? Since heare this most worthy Princes descent was her only fault ; her byrth , her cryme ; And thus did nearest in bloud occasion the effusion of most innocent bloud , and proximitie in Nature produce this barbarus Act , euen loathed in Nature .

But doth your Lordship thinke , that the other Q. then height of state and fastigious Dignity , could be a Sanctuary ( without finall repentance ) for such her immanitie ? o no. t t Sapient . cap. 6. vz. potentes potenter tormenta pati●ntur . Potentes potenter &c. But I will conceale , what followeth .

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

That most deplotable Act ( Michaeas ) by you now mentioned , was rather to be ascrybed ( perh●pps ) to certaine of the sayd Queens Councellours of state in those dayes , then to the Queene herselfe . But since she was a Princes of greate parts and perfections , I could wish , that ( as free from ill reproach ) she now being deade ( through of neuer dying memory ) might rest in Honour , who gouerned with Honour .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

my L. Iudge . Michaeas is come hither , not to declame thus at large , or to make excursions of longe discourse , ( is hitherto he hath bene permitted ) but to suffer condigne punishment for his former Misdemeanours : The tyme is almost spent , and therefore I would entreate your Lordship , speedely to proceed to sentence against hym .

MICHAEAS .

Most Excellent Iudge . ô let not my gray heyres become discolored with any imaginary Crymes ; nor suffer my ruinous and decayed bones to be attended to their graue , with any iniust punishment ; and therefore , * * Psalm . 〈◊〉 . In virtute tua iudica me . Yf I desearne euill , let me haue my due recompence : Yf I be faultles , I ought to be assoyled : It is the law , & my owne demerits ( not this Mans viperous tongue ) that must make me , euill .

LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE .

I will descend to your sentence [ Michaeas ] And first , seing I well obsearue , that greate and vnaccustoined Examples of Iustice must euer in the eye of the multitude , be presumed to haue some what of Wrong , at least of Rigour ; therefore for the better auoyding of such an aspertion ; I will call to mynd of what particular offences you heare rest accused ; and will passe my euen & impartiall iudgment of them ; not respecting , how they are amplyfied in words , but what they desearue ( ail collaterall respects considered ) in themselfs : S 〈…〉 ce one and the same Action ( the circumstances being v●rie● is with them also varied .

You arr heare then Michaeas arraigned ( as farre as my memory may seaiue to suggest ; and if I do forget any thing , I hope your charitable friend , M. Vice-Chancelour , wil be my Remembrancer ) of three seuerall Offences .

First , of diuulging and mantayning Positions of Disloyalty of the subiect , agaiust his Prince . Secondly , of spreading short Treatises in the Vniuersity , contayning diuers poynts of your owne Romish Religion : Thirdly and lastly , of being a Priest , and exercizing your Priestly function within this Realme .

Touching the first , I can find no prouffs against you , but only M. Vice-Chancelour bare & naked assertion ; to the which I haue lesse reason to giue so farre credit , as to ru●ish you for the same ; not only , because you do as peremptorily deny it , as he did confidently auerre it ; but also in that you made a voluntary and earnest protestation ( in the name of your selfe , & all other Priests and Catholicks in England ) of due allegeance to his Maiesty : so whereas M. Vice Chancelour did thearein speake words , you did speake matter . Besids I should hould it no small ouersight , to chastize you publykely for that presumed fault ( though most weakely proued ) with the which ( if your formerrelations be therein true ) our owne Brethren do stand ( in a farre higher degree and measure ( chargeable .

Touching your Pryesthood and exercizing of it in our Country ( the greate antiquity whereof , if you haue truly discoursed of it , hath party awakened my Spirits ) thoughe you be much blame worthy in so doing ; Yet I cannot but confesse , that our Satuts made in that busines , haue particular reference to those Pryests only , which are borne in our Country , and not to Aliens or strangers , as you giue your selfe out to be : And therefore our Lawes thearein cannot take any full hould of you .

That third fault then it is , whereunto you lye more dangerously subiect ; Which is , touching the diuulging of your Treatises , and persuading others to your owne Religion . The which , as it is prohibited by our Lawes , for euery vrgent reasons ( as begetting turbulency in our setled and quyet State ) so the offendours thearein stand highly punishable . Neuerthelesse [ Michaeas ] since in the whole procedure of your Arraignment , you haue showed greate temperance in your deportment , and loyalty to our Soueraigne ; by the which we must coniecture the integrity and candour of your Mynde ( for though God do iudge the words by the hart ; yet Man must iudge the hart by the words ) since Old age , a Schollar , and a Stranger ( euen in all Countryes ) desearue speciall commiseration and pittye . Finally , since he , who through any great offence committed , is dead in the Law , if after the rigour therof be to him dispensed , is become the Chyld of Mearcy , enioying ( as it were ) a second Byrth ; in which kynd of dispencing with rigour , the Highest cheifly glorieth : u u Psalm . 144. Suauis est Dominus , & miserationes eius super omnia opera eius . Therefore my sentence shal be against you in the most gentill manner ( yet with due consideration of all circumstances ) And it shal be this . You shall continue in this Nation , as long as your selfe shall thinke good , enioying your full liberty of body ; so that hereafter you forbeare all persuading of others to your owne Religion , and do perseuer in your former obedience to his Maiesty , you shall at the next Act or Commencment at Oxford , be ready there publykly ( in the eye of that Vniuersity ) to defend your owne doctrine , mantayned in these your written Treatises ; at what tyme M. Vice-Chancelour heere ( as being a Professed Deuine ) shal be in those disput● , your cheifest opponent and Antagonist . And if any of our Doctours shall by writing impugne your said discourses , you shall giue your faithfull promisse , to reply thereto . And lastly you shall pray for the well-fare of his Maiesty ; vnder whose happy and clement gouerment , your former Transgressions are so mildly chastized .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

My Lord . I willingly accept of the Disputation ; Where I doubt not , but to lay open at full the superstition of that Man of sinne . But what ? Must in the meane tyme , Mich●as ( a member of Antichrist ) be freed from imprisonment , and passe thus vnpunished ? Must the Whore of Babylon be entertayned among vs ( in her followers ) no worse , then a chast and inte●erate Virgin ? Shall the words spoken in the Dragons voyce , be so preuayling , as to enchant the eares of the faythfull with her pleasing ( yet poysenous ) musicke ? Breifly , shall Heresy , Superstition , and Idolatry ( the worst of all euill ) endeauour among vs ( and that in our Vniuersity ) to take place in the Soules of Christians , with all impunitie , and as exempt from controule ? Yf so ; then come ( O Lord of heauen ) hasten thy approach ; Ouerrunne the earth with an irresistable prosternation of all Creatures : and reduce all things of their last Period and dissolution : for now it seemes , the tyme is , that 1 1 Ezech. 28. Apoc. 20. Gog and Magog ( the forces 2 2 Vide August . l. 20. de ciuitate Dei cap. 11. of Antichrist ) are let loose , to ceaze vpon the faythfull ( without any gainsaying or opposition ) and to beget in mans soule , a giddy dissipation of all his intellectuall powers .

MICHAEAS .

M. Vice-Chancelour : x x Horat. Proijcis ampullas , & sesquipedalia verba . You mouth it ouer loudly , and vse very turgent and swelling words , agaynst vs poore distressed Priests & Catholicks : Whose shyeld , in the meane tyme is Patience : whose armour , our Confidence in God : and whose recrimination , rests in words of myldnes and charity : y y 1. Cor. 4. Maledicimur , & benedicimus : blasphemamur , & obsecramus .

But my very good Lord . To turne my speeches vnto you : Touching this your sentence ( how innocent soeuer I am ) I do vndergoe it with all humblenes of mynd , and without the least reluctation : for I haue red : * * Eccles 8. Non iudices contra iudicem . And I embrace it the more willingly , since I hope , that by this meanes , the radiant and most shyning Truth of the Catholicke Doctryne in the former discussed Poynts , will in the fight of so noble and worthy an Auditory ( as the famous Vniuersity of Oxford is ) more easily dispell the myst of all contrary Nouelis 〈…〉 e.

Touching my Loyall duty to his Maiesty , my prayer is , ( & this I speake , not in a Dialogizing and feigned manner : but plainly , sincerely , and seriously , in the sight of God and his Angells ) God pres 〈…〉 ue King Charles and his Royall Queene , with a prosperous and blessed Domination and gouerment ouer this Nation : Grant to them the happynes , to branch themselues forth into many dis●ente and Progenyes , from generation to generation : And finally vouchs 〈…〉 fe ( most mercyfull God ) that the greatnes of this their temporall 〈…〉 ity may serue as a Type , or ●dumbration , to figure out their greater eternall Beautitude in the world to come . And thus with bended knee , and hart prostiated in all du 〈…〉 full humility , and with all remonstrance of thankefulnes , for this your ●l 〈…〉 ency and myldnes of Iudgment and sentence , I take my last fare well with your good Lordship .

VICE-CHANCELOVR .

My Lord , must your former iudgment passe vnaltered ? and must it not be accompained with any chastizement at all ?

L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE .

M. Vice-Chancelour . Content your selfe with my former sentence : It shall stand : z z Math. 20. an oculus ●uus nequam est , quia ego bonus sum ? I hope , you will haue aduantage enough against him , in your future disputation : and it is more honour for you , to haue the Victory ouer his Cause , then ouer his Person . And indeed , it is inhumanity to depresse and waigh downe a poore old Man and a stranger , with multiplicity of miseryes : your selfe is a Schollar : and therefore you are the ●ore to commiserate him , being a Schollar . And so with these my last words , both of you may depart from this barre , at your owne pleasure .

VICE C-HANCELOVR .

My Lord . Since such is your resolution , I must rest satisfyed therewith : and so I take my humble leaue of your Lordship .

As for you [ Michaeas . ] I will not take any formall farewell with you : because I hope according to my L. sentence deliuered , I shall meete with you in our Vniuersitie this next Commencement : at what tyme , I will anatomize and dissect that Wh 〈…〉 re if Bab 〈…〉 lon , and strike her in her Mayster vey●e : and will ( to your irreperable disgrace ) display the falshood and absurdities of all your former dispersed Popish doctryres ; when your Auditour shall easily perceaue , that you in your former wrytings , did much pertake of the byrd , that owed the wing , from which you borrowed your penne : And so till then , I bid you : A 〈…〉 eu .

MICHAEAS .

M. Vice-Chancelour . I do contemne these your Lucian and scoffing vaunts ; vnworthy to proceede from the mouth of a graue and learned Man . At the tyme appoynted , I meane to be present in your Vniuersity : where I trust through the ayde of him , whose cause I am then to mantayne , to make good & iustify all my former Catholicke doctrynes .

Touching your malignant demeanour ( for I can tearme it no better ( agaynst me , throughout the whole Processe of this cauillous accusation ; know you , that as all Christians in generall , so Pryests and Catholickes more peculiarly ( of which number I am one ) are bound to requyte good for euill ; imitating therein our Lord ; who , Cum a a 1. Petri . 2. malediceretur , non maledicebat : cum pateretur , non comm●nebatur . Therefore in b b 2. Thess. 3. charitate Dei , & patientia Christi ; I freely forgiue you : and will affoard you my dayly Prayers for your Conuersion , and sauing of your Soule . And with this [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] vntill the tyme set downe of our future disputation . I leaue you .

FINIS . GOD SAVE THE KING .

THE CONCLVSION to the Academicks of both the Vniuersities .

LEARNED and worthy Academicks Now Michaeas ( the Conuerted law ) hath acted his last Scene ; And new he heare pulleth off his visard , vnder which in the former Dialogues he masked , and taketh his last farewell with you in the playne and naturall Dialect of an 〈…〉 Pryest , the Authour of the sayd Dialogues . You haue heare perused the points discussed . It hath in the former Dialogues ( I hope irrefra●ably ( bene proued , that since the Apostles dayes euen to Luthers reuolt , Our Cathelicke fayth without chan●e , hath euen bene professed ; the Protestants fayth hath neuer bene professed What demonstration more choaking ? You also haue seene , with what disaduantage diuers of your Professours ( in regard of the most iust retorting of it vpon themself● ) haue in greate wast and profusion of words , wrongfully & promis●uously charged all Catholicks with the hatefull Cryme of Disloyaltye . Lastly , heare hath bene laid open before you , ( besids some 〈◊〉 discourses of certain Catholicke doctrines ) the venerable Antiquitie of Priesthood ; the lyke antiquity of the Sacerdotal 〈…〉 h 〈…〉 tye of remitting of sinns in the Sacrament of Confession ; and of celebrating the most reuerend and incruent Sacrifice of the Masse : subiects against which , many Protestants so bitterly 〈…〉 both with tongue and penne .

Now if Gods 〈◊〉 W●●t , partly deliuered in a propheticall spirit , and partly by our Sauiours 〈◊〉 and Apostles , touching the former poynts . Yf the vninterrupted practize of Gods Church , answearable to those diuine Oracles . Yf the learned Monuments of the Primatiue Fathers in the Churches Infancy , contesting ( or rather , deposing ) the same . Yf the Ecclesiasticall Historyes recording the euen●s , sorting to all the former pro●ffs and authorityes . Finally , if your owne Brethrens free Confessions in their wrytings to their owne irreperable preiudice ) warranting the same , cannot induce many of you , to beleiue the truth of the Articles aboue discussed ; then can I but dispaire of your bettering by perusing the former disputes ; and can but commiserate your irremediable states in the words of the Prophet , spoken to Israell : a a Ieremy . c. 30. Insanabilis ●ract 〈…〉 a , pessima p●●ga tua . but if you be such , as I haue fi●ured out to my selfe : Men professing Candor and ingenuitie ; thirsting after your owne Saluation ; desirous to embrace the Truth , once found out ; and ▪ chornin● any lon●er to liue and implicit and blynd assent ( without further 〈◊〉 and search ) to your grand Maysters Theorems ; then I am in good hope , that these my Labours may wunne some ground vpon your iudgments ; and that you will make good in yourself that sentence of our Lord and Sauiour : b b Math. 〈◊〉 . Iustificata est sapientia a fil 〈…〉 suis . I will speake playnly vnto you , because I affect you in true Christian Charity and pittie it is , that such-transcendent Spirits should for euer perish . You are created to enjoy Eternitye : Spurne there at those temporary illaqueations ; whearwith the soule i accustomed to be detayned from her cheifest Good . You are ( through the force of Christs Passion 〈…〉 borne Cohey●es to the Kin●dome of God : Why then will you longer seede with the Prodicall Sonne , vpon the husks of wordly deli●hts and pleasures ? say eich of you rather , with an auncient Father : d d Terr . contra marcionem . l. 5. Mihi ●amulo Create is , murd 〈…〉 us si non tamen Deus mundi ; Et igo Mundo , non tamen Deo mundi . Pray with in ●●slant and feruerous eiaculations of spirit ( by which meanes , he will no dowbt , of new become present to you , who at all tymes is * * God is in euery thing and place , per essentiam , potentiam , & g●ortam . present ) that his Diuine Maiesty would vouchsafe to remoue from your eyes ( as he did from the corporal eyes of the e e Act. 91. Apostle ) the scales of partiality and preiudice in matters of fayth : the most dangerous rocke of the soules eternall naufrage .

Do not still perseuer in vp ●raidin● the Catholicks , with Superstition , Idolatrie Antichristianisme relyinge on humane inuentions , and disualewing of the most precious sufferings of our 〈◊〉 no. These are but our Aduersaryes impostures and Calumnyes , forged to ensware the ignorant . For we all most willingly acknowledg , that the bloudy wounds of a sinfull soule are cured , only by the bloudy passaues of Christ his Passion : thus we teach and beleiue , that bloud heare stancheth bloud and Death ( through ouerthrow of death ) raise Men from death : f f So saith the Catholicke Church , in the office of the Holy Crosse . Mors ●ortua tunc est : in ligno quando mortua vita fuit .

But to returne more particularly to the former Dialogues . I do probably pre●age , that perhaps some one or other of your learned Professours will vndertake to answeare theese my Wrytings . Therefore let me premonish that man cheifly of three Things .

First , that whereas theare are in the three former discourses , almost a thousand Testimonies of all sorts of authorities , produced ( some immediatly , and others by necessary inferrence , prouing the Catholicks Poynts aboue treated of ) That therefore he would not ( forbearing in policy to answeare the authorities ) flee a new to the state of the question ( being allready acknowledged on all sides ) and to other extrauagancyes of discours ; and all , to with draw ( by such subtill transitions ) his Reader from the poynt issuable ; which is , whether the former Con●rouer●ed Questions do receaue their full prousse , from my alledged testimonies , or no 〈◊〉 Secondly , that whereas the greatest part of the aboue alledged authorities , are taken from the protestants Confessions and acknowledgments , ( they mainly thearby wounding their owne Religion ) That the Replyar for the auoyding of the force of their authorities , would not seeke to oppose other Protestants denying that , which they confesse ; since this Kynd of euading●s most weake ( as is intimated allready in the second Dialogue ) in that the Protestants alledged by me , are the most remarkable Protestants , that euer did wryte , and do confesse to their owne preiudice , and against the 〈◊〉 ; which they neuer would do , but that the euidency of the Truth enforceth them thear to . Whereas thus others ( which perhaps the Replyar may pro 〈…〉 ce ) are Men of meaner ranke , and speake in their owne behalfe ; and therefore as compacted of impudency and boldnes , their ton●ues and pe 〈…〉 ns stand at all tymes ready charged , to speake and wryte by affirming of chings ( thou 〈…〉 neuer so false ) for the supporting of their owne Cause . Thirdly and lastly , that in answearing to the testimonyes and Confessious , he would take them in order , as they lye , and not omit any ; as otherwyse hoping , that is regard of the ●●ltitude of the testimonyes the sluggish yauning Reader would easely swalow such ouersights of Omisions . For heare I aduertize the Replyar a forehand : That presently vpon the first comming out of his Answeare , I will make a short Cathalogue of all the testimonyes and Confessions omitted by hym ( if any such he ) shewing to what end the sayd Testimonyes were particularly produced ; And will cause this Cathalogue within few dayes after , atleast few weeks ( for I will not stay for months ) to be printed and d 〈…〉 , for the present s 〈…〉 of the Readers thirst , till further oportunity be geuen for confuting of his answeare at large ▪ And thus I dowbt not , but the Sunne of the Replyars same end worth , which may seeme perhaps so gloriously to ryse at the first appearance of his most learned answeare ( forsooth ) within th 〈…〉 tyme after ( if any of the former premonished ●lei●hts and collusions be vsed thearein ) wil be forced to set in a Cloud of his owne disgrace and disreputation .

Neither let that Man think , that the s 〈…〉 of his , Booke with greeke sentences , or the hayling in of certaine mysapplyed and g 〈…〉 beaded Apotheges of some one or other old and outworne Philosoph●● ( an Idiome peculiar to most Protestant Wryters ) must carye the ma●ter : But it must be a 〈…〉 , and sincere coa●s of answearing , which at this tyme can satisfy .

But now ( Cel 〈…〉 Academicks ) taking my last leaue of you all I will heare cease , but will neuer cease , to power out my dayly prayers to the most Blessed and v●deuided , for your encrease of all vertues ; but particularly for true and orthodoxall fayth ; that ●o ( you being gratefull in the si●ht of the three diuine Persons ) God the Father , would vouchsafe you the Power , Christ his Mearcy , and the Holy-G 〈…〉 rection and spirit , for the 〈…〉 your soules with so 〈…〉 able a ●ewell : g g Ter● . l. de Anim● . Cut veritas comp. 〈◊〉 si●● 〈…〉 cognitus , 〈…〉 Christo ●cui Cr●●us exploratus , ●ine Spiritu Sancto ? cui Spiritus , ●anctu ▪ accomoda●us , sine si●ei Sacramento ?

Laus Deo , & Beate Virgini Maria.

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