OH well met once againe ! where haue you bin that I neuer saw you since wee talked about Pope Ioane ? Are you the same man for Religion , that you was then ?

Yea truely , or rather more resolute , and confident .

What new arguments haue you lighted on to increase your resolution and confidence ? for my part , I am euery day further out of loue with your Religion , then other .

The Arguments which haue doubled my resolution and confidence are diuers , wherof the first is this : a a Allen Apology of the Seminaries , c. 5. f. 58 That I find sentence giuen for vs Catholikes against you Protestants in all the Tribunals of Gods Church , I finde that all the Writings of the Saints in Heauen professe for vs .

What ? the Writings of the Prophets and of the Apostles ? and of the Fathers in the Primitiue Church ? and of the Councels ? Doe you finde that all professe for you ?

Yea , all of them : b b Campian , rat , 10. Quaecunque vel opera , vel fragmenta supersunt eorum qui disiunctissimis terris Euangelium seuerunt , omnes nobis vnam fidem exhibent quam hodie Catholici profitemur . There is not a booke , nor a piece of a booke extant , written by the first Preachers of the Gospel , whensoeuer , or how far so euer they liued one from another , but it giues witnesse to the Catholike Faith which wee professe at this day .

Can you make proofe thereof vnto mee , and I will bee of your Religion ?

That I can ; and I will first begin with Scriptures : for I am of c c Rock of the Church , Ch. 8. p. 193. Doctor Saunders opinion , That there are most plaine Scriptures in all points for the Catholike Faith , and none at all against the same . And of d d Motiue 48. Doctor Bristoes mind , whose words these are ; Most certaine it is , that from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Apocalips there is no Text that makes for you , nor against vs but all for vs .

Say you so ? Verily , and if the Scriptures be for you , I will be with you : for I like well of e e Epist. 80. Saint Basils motion to one with whom hee had a controuersie ; Stemus arbitratu inspiratae à Deo Scriptura , & apud quos inueniuntur dogmata diuinis oraculis consona , illis omnino veritas adiudicetur sententiae . Let vs stand to the arbiterment of holy Scripture , and let them be thought to haue the truth on their side whose opinions are found to be agreeable to Scriptures . But let mee tell you a word or two by the way , and they are these ▪ viz. That you are not more thorowly perswaded of the truth of your two Doctors speeches , then I am of a Gentlemuns speech of our Religion , who being importuned by an idle Questionist of your side , to tell where our Religion was before Luthers time , returned him this answere ▪ That our Religion was alwaies in the Bible , where your Religion neuer was . In which perswasion I am the more confirmed by this , That there f f Teste Espentao Comment. in Tit. c. 1. p. 104. 105. are of your selues ( no fooles I wisse ) who write , that some among you , Poene peceatum putant Scripturas legere , ne sic siant haeretici : Doe thinke it almost a sinne to read the Scriptures , least by reading of them they should proue hereticks . For if your Religion were in the Bible , and that in so plaine manner as you brag , why should any of you bee so afraid of opening a Bible ▪ why did one of your g g Apud Hassenmullerum . Hist. Iesuit . ord. cap. ● p. 428. Iesuits confesse , that Lectis Bebliotu●t cicius haereticum Lutheranum , quam Catholicum Romanum facit : The reading of the Bible makes rather Hereticall Lutherans , then Romau Catholikes ? Why suffer you this marginal Note , h h Conc. 3. de Lazaro ; printed at Basil 1530. Nunc ex●●udit haresies , to be set ouer these words of Chrysosta●● , ●g●oratio scripturarum peperit haereses .

I meane not to take vpon mee the iustifying of euery mans priuate conceits or speeches ; but what I my selfe haue said , all that shall bee made good . I will proue vnto you the troth of our Religion by the Bible .

Now ( indeede ) I am afraid you are bewitched with that damnable opinion , which of later yeeres hath runne currantly among you , viz. Sunt i i Pighius Hierarch . Eccles. l. 3. ● . 3. & 5. c. 3. Simanea Instit. Cathol. c. 57. nu. 12. scriptura V●lut nasus cereus , qui se her sum , illorsum , & in quam volueris partem trahi , retrahi , fingique facile permittit , & tanquam plumbea quadam Lesbi●●disicationis regula , quam no● 〈◊〉 difficile accommodare ad quiduis volueris . The Scriptures are like a nose of waxe , which may bee writhen this way , or that way , backward , or forward as a manwould would haue it . And with that of Quintinus the Parisian k k In Arg. lib. de pr●scip● . adu . here . per Tertul. Doctor , commended by Pamelius , who writes thus . l l Not ▪ in Tertul ▪ de pr●scrip . adu ▪ har●t . c. 39. nu. 237. iuxta edit . Pamel . Tam facile est , im● facilius est adres profanas & impias pr●bandas detorquere sanctam scripturam , quam facile est & pedibus , ac semi-pedibus aut penthememeribus Virgilianis Epithalmia , sen quiduis aliud in vnum congerere . It is as casie , yea it is more easie to wrest the Scripture to the prouing of any villany or impiety : then to make a Loue Song , by snatching here a patch and there a patch of a Verse out of Virgil. And that in confidence hereof you hope to make a shew of somewhat out of the Bible for the prouing of your Religion : otherwise I know not what should moue you to beginne with Scripture . You haue forgotten ( I beleeue ) that m m Moti●s 48. Doctor Bristow describing the meanes to make plaine demonstration , that Heretikes haue no euidence , but you all , aduiseth his Agents to labour still to get the Heretickes out of their weake and false Castle of holy Scripture , into the plaint fields of Councels and Fathers . For all his bragging of the Scriptures , hee put but a little trust in them : hee was loth to haue them in the foreward .

But I am content they match in the foreward , if you will beleeue me .

Why , but I pray you then place the best formost . And if we fall into dispute with Saint Peters Supremacie , trouble mee not with such Texts as some of your n n n Simanea Institut. Cathol. c. 44. nu. 2. & 3. impres. Valissoleti . A. 1552. Rabbies alledge for it . Tell me not that our Sauiour Christ said vnto S. Peter onely , Duc in altum : Launch into the deepe . No● potuisti vna hora vigilare mecum ? Couldst thou not watch one houre with mee ? Sequere me , Follow me . Neither tell mee in way of prouing the same , That S. Peter cut off Malous care . And if from that wee fall to argue about your Popes omnipotency , alledge me not the first verse of the first Chapter of Genesis for it , as your o o Extro . de Maeiori . & obed. Cap. vnam sanctam Pope Boniface the eight did : neither yet the sixteenth verse of the said Chapter , as another of your Popes , euen p p Extra de Maeiorit . & obed. Cap s●lita . Innocentius the third did . Nor that in Ieremy , Chap. 1. v. 10. as the same Innocentius q q Ibid. did . Let mee notheere out of your mouth , as making to that purpose , That the spirituall man iudgeth all things , and himselfe is iudged of no man . Loe : Two swords here . Returne thy sowrd into his place . Know you not that we shall iudge the Angels ? which are the special Texts wheron your r r Loca supra Citato . Boniface rested . Neither would I willingly heare of s s Sentron Baronius Text , Act. 10. Kill and eate . For that which t t Ibid. Polidore Virgil obserued to be the tricke of Popish Canonists is found practised by those whomake ▪ these Arguments . viz. Non secus ists aliquoties de●●●quent sacr as scriptur as quò volunt , ac sutores for did as solent dentibus extendere pelles . These Canonists do● now and then stretch the Scriptures to their purpose , as shooemakers doe their greasie ouer-leathers with their teeth .

Some of these Texts afford Arguments good enough for the conclusions for which they are brought . Yet feare not you : for I meane not to trouble you with any of them .

Neither , if wee ahue occasion to talke of Communicating in one kind , will you ( I hope ) u u Roffens . adu . Luth. Act. 16. Eckius in Enchirid. Tit. de Communione sub altera specie . alledge vnto mee , for proofe of your practise , the words in our Pater Noster , Giue vs this day our daily bread . Nor x x Bell. 4. de Euch ▪ Cap. 24. tell me , That our Sauiour Christ , Ioh. 6. multiplied l●aues , but multiplied no drinke . Nor y y Eckius loco citato . cite 1 Cor. 5. 7 , 8. Our Pasch Christ is immolated . Let vs therefore feast in the Azymes of sinceritie and veritie . And if wee fall to argue by case , whether it be meet that boyes and wenches should make Monkish vowes of obedience , poucrtie , and chastitie : you will not presse mee with such Texts as z z lib. 2. de Monach. Cap. 35. Bellarmine stands vpon , where he disputes the point . You will not tell me , It is written by Ieremy , Lament. 3. 27. It is good for a man to beare the yoke from his youth . And that our Sauiour Christ said , Matth. 19. 14. Suffer little children to come vnto mee . Neither will you in way of prouing , That boyes and wenches may enter into Monasteries against their parents mindes : alledge that Text in Gen. 12. Get thee out of thy country , and from thy kindred , and from thy fathers 〈◊〉 Nor that in Deut. 33. 9. Hee that said vnto his father and to his mother , I know you not , &c. Not that in the Psalme 45. 10. Forget thine owne people , and thy fathers house , and the King shall haue pleasure in thy beautie . Nor that in S. Matth. 10. 37. Hee that loueth father or mother more then mee , is not worthy of mee . Nor that in S. Luke 9. 60. &c. Let the dead bury the dead . Which are the onely Scriptures alledged by a a Lib. 2. de Minach . Cap. 36. Bellarmine in that Controuersie . For these Texts are so far from prouing any such couclusions , that a man may truly sweare , Hee and his with had made a fray who alledged them .

I will not trouble you with this neither .

Nor with that , Matth. 7. 6. Giue yee not that which is holy to dogs , in way of prouing : b b Staphylus in Apolog. That ignorant persons may not reade the Scriptures . Nor with that in Genesis . God for Adams sinne cursed the earth , but not the water , in way of prouing . c c English Festiual feria 4. post fostum palmarum . That it is lawfull for a man to eate Fish in Lent , but not Flesh . You will make mee no such Conclusions as these . d d Ledesma de diuin script ▪ quauis lingua non legend . C. 22. Our Sauiour Luke 4. opened the booke and read a few verses in it , and afterwards closed it . Ergo , Diuine Seruice is not to bee said in a knowne language . e e Innocent. 1 . ●●pist . ad E●uperi●● vide Gratian d. 82. proposui●l● . Be yee holy , for I am holy . Ergo , Ministers of the Gospel may not lie with their wiues . God f f Bell. l. 1. de sanct , beatit . Cap. 20. said vnto Iobs friends , Goe vnto my seruant Iob. Ergo , Scripture affordeth a particular precept , binding men to Inuocation of Saints . g g Ibid. God told Iobs friends , That Iob should pray for them . Ergo , the Scripture affordeth a particular example of praying to Saints . h h Ibid. God promised Iobs friendes , That hee would accept of Iobs prayer , &c. Ergo , The Scripture affordeth a particular example of blessing to such as pray to Saints . i i Greg. de valeu●ia de Idol●lat . Chap. 7. S. Peter condemneth the vnlawfull seruice of Idols , 1 Pet. 4. 3. Ergo , some Idolatry is lawfull . k k 1. Cor. 6. 4 S. Paul commaunds to set the contemptible in the Church to iudge . l l Bell. l. 5. Rom. Pont. Cap. 7. Ergo , The ancient Christians might , if their abilities had serued , haue deposed from the Empire both the Heathen and Hereticall Emperours .

The Conclusions which I will make shall arise naturally from the Text : for they shall bee drawne from the expresse wordes , which are one thousand times more cleere for vs , then they are for you , as m m Apol. of the English Sem. fol. 57. Cardinall Allen affirmes . Yea , very many of the Texts which I will cite , shall bee so open and euident , that vnlesse you deny them to be text of Scripture , you shall not bee able to auoide them , and the rest shall be o o Answer to M. Charkspref . p. 57 such as you cannot shift without glozes and fond interpretations of your owne .

Perhaps you will take them to be open and euident for your purpose , which neither seeme to mee : nor are indeed such in themselues . You know the Prouerbe ; As the foole thinketh , so the bell ringeth . I doubt not but those * * Districtis●imi Monachi . Puritan Monkes , p p Ioh. de Polemar . Orat. in Cone Basil apud Binnium 〈◊〉 4. Conc. p. 385. who made themselues woodden Crosses , and carried them on their backes continually , making all the world laugh at them , thought the Text , Matth. 10. Hee that taketh not a Crosse , and followeth mee , is not worthy of mee : a plaine and worthy Text for the approuing of their practise . And it may be that the French-men , q q Teste Azono To. 2. Instit. Moral . lib. 11. Cap. 2. 14. quaritur . who for the proofe of their Salike-Law , alledged the words of our Sauiour , Luk. 12. 27. Considerate Lilia quomodo crescunt : non laborant , ne que nent . Consider the Lillies of the field how they grow , they labour not , neither doe they spin : concluding thereon , Lilia Francorum non deberi nisi nebilibus qui non laborant : nec deberi nisi masculis qui non nent . That the Flower-de-luces of France ( meaning the Crowne of France ) belongs to none but Nobles , who worke not for their liuing ; and those men , not women ( who are Spinsters ) thought they had a good text in hand for their purpose . Certainly your lousie S. Francit , was not ashamed to say , that the words of our Sauiour , Matth. 25. 40. Quod vni ex minoribus meis fecistis , mihi fecistis . Whatsoeuer you haue done to one of these little ones , you haue done it vnto mee : were spoken by him r r Lib. Conformitat . B. Francise● per Pi saum ●di . Bonon . 1590. l. ● . Fructus . 1. fol. 13. Col. 3. specialiter , yea s s Lib. 1. Fructius fol. 113. Col. 3 ad literam , of his Frier-Minorits . And your t t Lib. 1. Fructus 9. fol. 127. Col. 3. Pisanus Writer of that lousie Friers Alcaron will needs threaten vs downe , That the words of S. Paul , Galat. 6. 16. As many as walke according to this Rule , peace shall bee vpon them and mercy : were meant of Francis his rule . Haue you not read that a Sorbonist finding it written at the end of S. Pauls Epistles , Missa est , &c. u u Bee Hyue cap. 3. fol. 93. 94. bragd hee had found the Masse in his Bible ? And that another reading in S. Iohn 1. 42. inuenimus Messiam , x drew thence the same conclusion . In y y Teste Stella de modo Concionandi cap. 6. Salaminca a Frier tooke vpon him to proue , That the name of the Virgin Mary was spoken of Gen. 1. where wee read , that God called the gatherings together of the waters Maria. I doubt not but he thought it an open and euident text for his turne . z z Teste Malanthont . Oral . de 〈◊〉 Elequentia . In another place , another Frier speaking of the words , Ge. 14. 18. Rex Salem panem ac vinum pertulit : fell into a long discourse of the nature of Salt . ▪ the nature of Salt . ● beleeue he could hardly haue been perswaded that Salem there , had not signified Salt . Your D. Poynes who writes , a a Preface to his booke of the Sacram. That it was foretold in the Old Testament , That the Protestants were a malignant Church , alledging for proofe thereof , 2. Chr. 24. 19. where , according to our vulgar Translation we read thus , Mittebatque prophet as vt reuerterentur ad Dominum , quos protestantes illi audire nolebant , thought an hundred for one , that the text was plaine . And it may bee that Parish Priest of yeeres , who being at controuersie with his Parishioners about pauing some plot of ground , and alledging the wordes in Ier. 17. 18. to proue that he was not bound to paue any place , saying : Paueant illi , ego non paueant : was not in iest , but in good earnest , thinking the letter of the text made euidently for him . Verily I am perswaded , that that c c See Sixt. Senens . Bibl. Sanctae l. 5. Annot. 116. Painter , whosoeuer he was , who first painted Moses with a paire of hornes : making him , as the Iewes say , like a deuil : thought the text in Exod. 34. 30. where you read , Faciem Moses esse cornutam , Moses face was horned ; a plaine warrant for his picturing him so . And I make no question , d Theodorus Stadytus Epi. 4. ad Naucratium qua extat . To. 3. Bibl. vel pal. Edit. 3. Col. 216. but d they who make the world beleeue they haue the two keyes of S. Peter at Rome , shewing them sometimes that they may bee adored : if they were vrged to make proofe how S. Peter came by those keyes , would alledge the words of the Euangelist , To thee will I giue the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen , as an open and euident text for that matter .

What adoe make you about had I wists ? I tell you once againe , e e Grounds of the New Religion , part. 2. cap. 18. p. 197. The Scriptures which I will alledge shall be plaine , and the expositions such , as you shall take no acceptions against . For , for the the truth of our expositions of holy Scripture , wee haue the continuall tradition of the Church : and the testimony and suffrage of all the holy Fathers , and of thousands of Saints and learned men , who euer expounded it as we doe , and out of it gathered the selfe same doctrine and beliefe .

No meruaile if this be so , that you f f Bulla P●● 4 super forma profess . ●id . Constitut. 30. in Sum. Constitut . Sum. Pontif. a Greg. 9. vsque ad Sixt. 5 sweare them whole Colledge of your Cardinalls : all your Archbishops , Bishops , Priests , Abbats , Priors , Friers , Graduats , that they shall neuer take the Scriptures in other sense , or interpret it to others in other sense , then that which the Fathers gaue thereof with ioynt consent . But I meruell as much that you blush not in saying as you doe : as that they tremble not who administer and take such an oath : for as they wittingly giue occasion of periury , who administer such an oath , and they periure themselues who take such an oath : so you apparently speake ouer . Yet seeing you are so confident , let vs fall to our worke roundly : And first let mee heare by you , what the Scriptures are which are so plaine for the proofe of your opinions : and when you haue done , you shall heare by me what plaine texts may be alledged for proofe of our opinions .

g g Erislow Motiue 48. Take then that for the first ; h h Matt. 26. Host est corpus meum , Hic est sanguis meus : This is my body ; This is my bloud .

For what opinion of yours is this Scripture so plaine ?

For the Reall presence in the Sacrament , which you deny .

My second instance is plaine enough : for p p Answ. to M. Charks Preface p. 27. we haue expresly , The bread which I will giue , is my flesh , Ioh. 6. 51.

For what opinion of yours are these words so plaine ?

For the former point : euen for the Reall presence in the Sacrament . And yet q q Ibid. you expound them , as if no more were meant by them , then that wee should haue giuen vs the signe of his flesh onely .

We doe not expound them so : We r r Rainold Confer . Cap. 2. diuis. 2. p. 67. & 68. say , That the wordes are meant of Christ himselfe , the word that was made flesh , Ioh. 1. 14. Wee expound them not of the signe of his flesh . We teach , That s s Ioh. 6. v. 32. the true bread , t t V. 33. the bread of God , which came downe from heauen , and giueth life vnto the world , u u Ioh. 6. v. 35. & 48. is Christ , x x V. 51. euen the flesh , the very flesh of Christ , that is , Christ incarnate : and that hee gaue vs this bread to eate , not in the Sacrament , but vpon the Crosse . And this exposition of ours is approued for good by Gabriel Biel , Lect. 84. super Canon . Missae . By Nic. Cusanus Epist. 7. ad Bohemos . By Caietan in 3. part . Tho. 9. 80. Art. vlt. By Ruard . Tapperus in explicat . Artic. 15. Louan . To. 2. By Hessels , lib. de Communione sub vnicaspecie . Tract . 1. By Iansen . Concord . Euang. cap. 59. as Bellarmine acknowledgeth , lib. 1. de Euch. cap. 5. And your selfe cannot with any reason maintaine the contrary , if you will bee tried by the expresse wordes . For you deny that Christ gaue bread at the celebration of this Sacrament . He gaue shewes of bread , not bread indeed , according to your learning . What is your third instance ?

y y Answ. to M. Charks Preface , p. 27. We haue expresly , touching the Apostles inequalitie , He that is great among you , let him be made as the younger , Luk. 22. whereas you say , There was none greater then other among them .

Here is some little shew , and no substance . For it is plaine by the expresse wordes of our Sauiour , Matth. 20. 25. and Mark . 10. 41. That no more is meant by the wordes you cite then this , viz. Hee that would bee great among you , let him bee made as the younger , which makes nothing for you , nor against vs . What is your fourth instance ?

z z Ibid. Wee haue expresly , A man is iustified by workes , and not by faith onely , Iam. 2. 24. which is directly opposite to that which you hold , Man is not iustified by good workes , but by faith only .

We doe not deny , that before men , and with men : A man may be iustified by workes . Wee deny only , That before God a man may be iustified by workes . Now Saint Iames speaks of Iustification , which is before , or with men : not of that which is before God , wherof Saint Paul speakes , from whom we gather our assertion . And that this is so , a a Comment in Iam. 2. 24. Tho. of Aquin confesseth , for Iacobus hîc loquitur de operibus sequentibus fidem , quae dicuntur iustificare , non secundum quod iustificare dicitur institiae infusio ; sed secundum quod dicitur iustitiae exercitatio , vel ostensio , vel consummatio . S. Iames speaks here of Iustification , as it is taken for manifestation and approuing of iustification , saith Thomas . And so , these wordes doe neither make any thing for you , nor against vs . What is your fifth instance ?

b b Answ. to M. Charks Prefece , pa. 28. We haue expresly , Whose sins yee forgiue , are forgiuen : Whose sinnes yee retaine , are retained , Ioh. 20.

And what of this ? make these wordes against vs ?

Yea , for c c Ibid. you say , Priests cannot forgiue , or retaine sins in earth .

You say truely . * * See a learned discourse hereof in the Answere to a challenge made by a Iesuit in Ireland . p. 109. &c. Wee beleeue that Ministers ( Priests as you call them ) haue power to forgiue and retaine sinnes on earth . The difference betweene vs and you is about the manner , which is not determined by those wordes , and about which you agree not among your selues . What is your sixtinstance ?

d d Answ. to M. Charks Preface , p. 28. We haue expresly , The doers of the Law shall be iustified , Rom. 2. 13. Yet you say , The doing therof iustifieth not Christians .

We say , That if a man can bring the Iustice which the Law requires , he shall be iustified thereby . But who can bring that , seeing in many things we sin all ? Iam. 3. 2. What is your seuenth instance ?

e e Answ. to M. Charks Preface , p. 28. We haue expresly , Vow yee , and render your vowes , Psal. 75.

And how then ? makes this against vs ?

Yo● , for f f Ibid. you teach ; Wee should not vow , or if we vow , we ought to breake our vowes .

We doe not ; A man , according to our Religion , may vow in some cases , and vpon some occasions , as is plaine by g g Caluin . Iustitut lib. 4. cap. 13 our bookes , and acknowledged by h h Lib ▪ 2. de Monach . cap. 15. Bellarmine himselfe : and , by our Religion , he needs not vow ; for vouere nusquam est praeceptum . It s no where commanded that wee should vow , saith i i Bell. lib. 2. de Monath . cap. 16. one . And Fateor quia Deus non praecipit , sed tantum consulit nobis vt aliquid illi v●ueamus , I confesse that God commaunds vs not , but onely counsells vs to vow vnto him , saith an k k Alfons . de Castro adu . haer . other of you . Againe , l l 14. verba vo●●●● Trauerse in his Answ. to a Popish Treatise written to the Lords of the Council , p 173 we teach , That when a man hath vowed a thing lawful , honest , and possible , he ought inuiolably to obserue it . And how then makes this text more for you , then for vs ?