WEll met , and welcome home Sir . What new booke haue you brought vs downe from London this Mart ?

Oh , I haue an excellent booke , which discourseth at large about Pope Ioane , whose Popedom you cast in the Catholiks teeth so often .

What language is it in , I pray you ? French ? or Latine ? or English ? and who made it ?

It was a a An. 1602. Posseuin in errat . & praetermis . 1. to . quae habentur ad finem To. 3 Apparat. sac . first written in French , but I haue it in Latine . The Author of it is one Florimondus Raemondus .

Florimondus Raemondus ? what is he , that I neuer heard of him before ? Is he , and his booke , of anie credite ?

He himselfe is reputed b b Vir , cùm primis illustris ac pius , & doctrina insignis . Baronius Annal. Tom. 10. ad An. 853. Nu 62. a very famous man for life and learning , so that , at this present he is one of the French Kings Councell at Burdeux ; and as for his booke , it is of wonderfull esteeme .

With whom I pray you ?

Euen with Cardinall Baronius . For c c Praecaeteris commendandus fama nobilis Florimundus : Baronius loco citato . he holds it the worthiest discourse that euer was made of that argument ; He professeth , that he could haue found in his heart to haue inserted it into his Annales , but that it is somewhat too large . For by it as the Cardinall further d d Sic confecit monstrum istud , vt nouat●●es pudeat , quae scripserunt vel somniasse . Ibi d. noteth , he hath so confounded all the packe of Heretickes , who heretofore vpbraided the Catholickes with it , that now they are ashamed of that which they haue said ,

But hath any man else the like opinion of it ?

This is much : but haue you read it ?

Read it ? Yea I haue read it againe and againe . Besides , I haue compared it with that which is written of the same argument , by Buchingerus in Germany : by Charanza in Spaine : by Onuphrius , and Bellarmine , and Baronius , in Italy : by Turrian , and Bernartius in Belgia : by Pontacus in Aquitania : by Genebrard , and Papyrius Massonus , in France : by Sanders , by Cope , by Harding , by Father Parsons , and others of our owne countrey .

And what say you now ( after the reading of all these ) to the storie of Pope Ioane , tell me in good earnest , and dissemble not .

I say , the very truth is , that the whole storie of Pope Ioane , is f f Onuph . Annot. in Plat. in vita Ioh. 8. a fable ; a g g Harding in his answer to Iuels Apology . fond and vaine fable , a h h N. D. part. 2. c. 5. Nu. 21. pag. 391. of the 3. Conuers . meere fable , an i i Idem nu. 36. pag. 403. hereticall fable , a k k Ibid. ridiculous fiction : and so l l Idem nu. 21. pag. 391. knowne to the learneder sort of Protestants among you , but that you will not leaue to delude the world with it , for lacke of other matter . Yea m m Idem . Nu. 36. pag. 403. I say further , there are so many improbabilities , and morall impossibilities in this tale , as no man of any meane iudgement , discretion , or common sense , will giue credite thereto : but will easily see the vanitie thereof . And in a word , n n Impudentissimè ficta , stul . tissimè credita Bernartius de vtilitate legendae hist. lib. 2. p. 105. in marg. I say , he was a knaue that deuised it , and he is foole who beleeueth it .

Now this is excellent in good truth : I see there is mettall in you . But what reason haue you on your side , that you are so peremptorie ? Did it not run for currant without controlment till within these fortie yeares , or thereabout : to wit , till the year 1566 , that Onuphrius the Frier began to bogle at it ? Was not Onuphrius the first , that euer by reason sought to discredit the report of it ? And yet doth not euen o o Multos & magni nominis viros historiam hanc suscipere , cam quoque vulgo verum existimari Loco supra citato . he confesse , that many men of worth , as well as of ordinarie sort , beleeued it for a truth ? Is it not to be found in Marianus Scotus , in Sigebert , in Gotefridus Viterbiensis , in Iohannes de Parisiis , in Martinus Polonus , in Petrarch , in Boccace , in Ramulsus Cestrensis , in Iohannes Lucidus , in Alphonsus è Carthagena , in Theodoricus de Niem , in Chalcocondilas , in Platina , in Palmerius , in Nauclerus , in Sabellicus , in Trithemius , in Volateran , in Bergomensis , in Schedel , in Laziardus , in Fulgosus , in Textor , in Gassarus , in Mantuan , in Crantius , in Charanza , and a p p Batthol . Cassa . 2. part . Catal. gloriae mundi , nona Consideratio . Ioh. Turrecremat . in Summa lib. 4. part. 2. cap. 20. Carolus Molinaeus . comment . in Parifiens . consuetud. Tit. 1. nu. 26. Caelius Rhodigin . Antiquarum lect. lib. 8. cap. 1. number moe of your owne faction , and of your owne friends ? of which some were Grecians , some Italians , some Spaniards , some French , some Germains , some Polonians , some Scots , some English ; and yet neuer a one of them a Lutheran . Yea do we not find it in some of your stories set downe in pictures ? And is not so much to be gathered by that image of hers , which is set vp amongst the rest of the images of the Popes in the renowned church of Siena in Italie , and is to be seene there at this day : which the Bishop of that place would not suffer to be defaced at the last repairing of that Church , though your Iesuites did earnestly request him to deface it ? Was there not made of old ( for feare of such like after-claps ) a stoole of easement , on which they were set at their creation , for proofe of their humanitie ? Was there not a marble image set vp as a monument thereof in that place where she miscaried ? to wit , in one of the chiefest streets in Rome ? which monument was to be seene likewise within these few yeares , euen in Pius the 5. his time . And is it not written by men among your selues , that your Popes , when they go in procession , refuse to go through that streete , in detestation of that fact , and go further about ? How say you , is it not euen thus ?

It is written ( I n n Philip. Bergom . in Supplem . chron. lib. 11. ad a● . 858. confesse ) that our Popes , in detestation of that fact , when they go in procession to the Lateran Church , refuse to go through that streete : but they who write so , mistake the matter . For the true reason why they turne out of that street , which is the nearer way , is , for that , that streete is angusta & anfractuosa , a narrow streete , and such a one as windes this way and that way : and in that respect , vnfit for so great atraine , as ordinarily accompanies the Pope to passe orderly through : as o o Loco supra citato . Onuphrius , and p p Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. Bellarmine , and q q Fabula Ioannae , c. 21. p. 184. Florimondus , haue obserued .

Much. For whereas you say Onuphrius was the first who by reason sought to discredit the report of it : that is not so . Iohannes de Columna a good writer of Chronicles , long before Onuphrius , hath likewise vtterly reiected the vanitie of this fable as D. t t Confutat . of the Apologie , part. 4. fol. 166. Harding noteth .

Iohannes de Columna his historie is extant in Lattine in the Vniuersitie library at Oxford : and in French , in New Colledge library . But there is not one word , good , or bad , for , or against Pope Ioane in it . If he reiected it , he reiected it by silence .

But u u Annalium Boiorum lib. 4. Iohannes Auentinus , reiected it in plaine words . And he wrote a good many yeares before Onuphrius .

Iohannes Auentinus ( I grant ) reiects it as a fable in one word , but he giues no reason of his reiecting of it . Besides , x x Ioh. Auentinus author parum probatae fider : saith Bell Append. ad ●o . de sum . Pont cap. 10. Bellarmine casts him off as a writer of small credit : and y y Infectam haeresis scabre bestiam pietate & doctrina omnino desertam . Baron Annal To. 10. ad 996. Nu. 54. Baronius brands him , not meerely for a skabd sheepe , but for an heretical skabby beast , destitute both of honestie and learning : and diuers of your Popes haue z z In Indicibus lib. prohibitorum . cried downe his history , as vnworthy of reading ; wherefore I see no reason , that his reason-lesse reiecting of it , doth any way preiudice the truth of it . What haue you else to say ?

First I would know who told you there was such a marble image in one of the streets at Rome ?

a a Lib de priuilegijs & iuribus Imperij . Theodoricus de Niem , who was Secretary to one of your Popes , told me that : for Adhuc vetus statua marmorea illic positafiguratiuè monstrat hoc factum , saith Theodoricus de Niem : that is , Vnto this day an old marble image erected in that place sheweth the matter vnder a figure .

Indeede b b Florimond . lib citato . cap. 21. nu. 2. I cannot deny but that in former ages many haue said so , and ( to confesse a truth ) I my selfe haue read as much in Antoninus Archbishop of Florence , and in Peter Mexia . But verily that image resembled no such thing . For neither was it like a woman lying in child-bed , nor was the boy which was grauen by her , like a child in the swadling clouts , but like one of some yeares .

This your exception is to no purpose ; for that age was a learne-lesse and a witlesse age . And therefore perhaps had no more skill in grauing , caruing , and painting , then they had , c c Aelian de varia hist. lib. 10. who were driuen to set either vnder , or aboue their pictures , Hoc est bos : illudequus : hoc arbor : that men might know what kinde of creature it was that they had painted . Questionlesse d d Epist. 120. Aeneas Syluius , pointing to a better time then that of Pope Ioanes , condemnes the painters and caruers thereof for notorious bunglers , saying thus ; Si ducentorum , trecentorúmue annorum , aut sculpturas intu●beris , aut picturas : inuenies non hominum , sed monstrorum portentorumque facies : that is , If thou obserue the grauen or painted images which were made two or three hundred yeares agone , thou shalt find , that they are faced more like monsters , and hobgoblins , then men . Now if they were such , what maruell , though intending to ingraue a woman trauelling , or rather newly deliuered of a child , they did it but vntowardly ? But what I pray you doth that Image represent , if it represent not Pope Ioane ?

z z Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. Cardinall Bellarmine seemes to like of their opinion , who guesse that some heathenish priest , who was about to offer sacrifice , and had his man before him , is denoted thereby . But I am rather of a a Cap. citat . nu. 6 Florimondus minde , who thinkes it was an idole , euen an image of some of the gods of the heathen .

If it had represented a sacrificing priest , and his man : the man should haue bene grauen behind , and not before his maister . For the seruant followeth his maister , b b 1. Sam. 14. 12. 13. as the young man that bare Ionathans armour , followed Ionathan , wherefore you haue reason to leaue Bellarmine in this . But why do you incline to Florimondus ? doth he giue you any reason for this opinion ? or alledgeth any Author of his opinion ?

Yes , c c Cum Onuphrio Panuino antiquitatis perscrutatore diligentissimo vetus aliquod idolum existimaui . Florim . ibid. he professeth , that he followeth Onuphrius therein , who was a most diligent Antiquary .

But he lies in that . For Onuphrius speakes not one word good or bad of this marble Image . He passeth it ouer in silence , as though no man had euer spoken of it .

I maruell if that be so . But yet I rest perswaded vpon Florimondus next reason , that that Image resembled not Pope Ioane . For if the ingrauer had purposed to expresse such a matter , and to continue thereby the memory thereof to the worlds end , he would haue set some d d Inscriptionem praefixisset . pag. 188. inscription ouer it ; for so do all men who erect monuments for remembrances .

That is not so , for we reade in e e Lib. 7. hist. cap. 14. Eusebius , that the f f Mat. 9. 21. woman who was cured by our Sauiour Christ of her issue of blood , &c. erected ( after the custome of the heathen ) an image of him , no doubt for remembrance sake . But we reade of no inscription written vpon it . In the booke of g g Cap. 4. 7. 8. Iosua we reade , that the Israelites were commanded to lay 12. stones vpon an heape , as a memoriall vnto their children for euer . And yet it is plaine by the circumstances they set nothing thereon in writing . When you paint S. Peter , you paint him with keyes in his hand , and set no inscription ouer his head , nor vnder his feet , as * * Obserat . in Annal. tom. 1 ad an. 57. apud Posseuin . in Apparat sac . verbo . Caesar Baron . Baronius confesseth . Wherfore for any thing I yet heare , it is most probable that it was set vp for a monument of Pope Ioane .

Enioy your conceit . But h h Sixtus quintus hunc vicum rectiorem duci curauit , quo factum est vt imago illa sublata sit . Florim . cap. 21. p. 189. I can tell you one thing . That image is now remoued out of that place . For Sixtus Quintus , that great builder and mender of high wayes , when he made that streete straight , wherein that image was , was forced to remoue that Image .

Belike , that image would haue bene some blemish vnto the streete , if it had remained : and that made him moue it .

Yea marry would it .

Now well fare his heart that was so carefull to ridde the streets of such a combersome monument . But who told you that Sixtus Quintus remoued it vpon that occasion ?

l l Loco citato . Florimondus .

Was it he ? Then know him for a lier whilest you liue : for it was Pius Quintus , and not Sixtus Quintus , who remoued it . And Pius Quintus remoued it , and cast it into Tiber , not for that it disgraced the streete : but vt memoriam historiae illius aboleret : that he might extinguish the memory of that shameful act . And this is witnessed not only by some trauellers , who were at that time in Rome ; but by n n Historia Iesuitici ordinis , cap. 10. de Iesoitarum patre & matre . Elias Hassenmuller , one ( once ) of your firie order of Iesuits . Your Florimondus will not deserue ( I feare ) halfe the commendation you haue giuen him .

I doubt not but he wil acquit himself like a man , of whatsoever you can say against him . But whence had you that of the stoole of easement , I pray you ? for o o Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap 24. in Bellarmin I read , that de sede ad explorandum sexum nulla vsquam mentio . Of a stoole of easement , to trie the Popes sexe , there is no where any mention : and in p p Fabulosum , & ab imperito vulgo fictum . Annotat. in Plat. in vit. Ioh. 8. Onuphrius , that it is but a meere toy , and an idle conceit of idle people .

That of the stoole of easement , is recorded by Philippus Bergomensis , q q Nobiliter doctus , historiographus celeberrimus . Trith . de Script . eccles. verbo . Iacobus Bergomensis . a man of great worth in his time as Trithemius witnesseth . For vpon mention made of Pope Ioanes storie , Ad euitandos similes errores statutum fuit ( r r In Supplement . Chron , ad An. 858. saith he ) ne quis de caetero in B. Petri collocaretur sede , priusquam per perforatam sedem futuri Pontificis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono Cardinale attrectarentur . That is , For auoiding like error in future times , it was decreed : that no man should be held for Pope , till the yongest Cardinall Deacon had found by triall , while he sate vpon a stoole of easement , that he was a man . which is likewise testified by s s De rebus Turcicis , l. 6. pag 98. Laonicus Chalchondylas . For vpon relation of that storie , he goes on thus : Quapropter ne decipiantur iterum , sed rem cognoscant , neque ambigant : Pontificis creati virilia tangunt , & qui tangit , acclamat : Mas nobis Dominus est : that is , Lest they should be deceiued againe , they make proofe by feeling ; and he that feeleth makes it knowne by crying out ; We haue a man Pope . And you may find as much in a later Papist , who within these few yeares , writ a booke of the Harmonie of Romish magistrates , and in it this .

You say true indeed . For I now remember t t Cap. 18. p. 159. In ridiculorum authorum grege anumerandus est . Florimondus confesseth so much , yet he reproueth the Author for writing so . But let vs go on : for I long to heare of whom you heard that such a chaire was to be seene , in the Popes pallace , within these few yeares .

I heard that of u u Aencid 9. lib. 1. Sabellicus . For writing of the same matter , Spectatur adhuc in Pontificia domo marmorea sella ( saith he ) circa medium inanis , qua nonus Pontifex continuò ab eius creatione resedit , vt sedentis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono attrectentur . That is , There is to be seene at this day in the Popes pallace , a chaire of marble , wherein the new Pope presently vpon his election is set downe , that as he sits , the lowest Deacon may make triall of his humanitie by touching . And you may find as much in William Brewin , who liued in the yeare 1470. for in * * Wilhelmus Brewin in codice manuscripto de 7. Ecclesijs principalibus v●bis Romae . Capella Saluatoris ( saith he ) sunt duae vel plures cathedrae de lapide marmoreo & cubio , cum for aminibus in ijs sculptis , super quas cathedras , vt audiui ibidem , est probatio Papae , vtrùm sit masculus , an non . That is , In the chappell of our Sauiour there are two or three marble chaires with holes in them , wherein , as I heard there , they make proofe whether the Pope be a man or no.

x x Cap. 20. pag. 176. Florimondus acknowledgeth there is yet such a chaire , wherein the Popesits after his election . But that he sits therein to such an end as you speake , that he vtterly denies .

And what is his reason ?

y y Ibid p. 181. Because he sittes therein not in a corner , but in the great Church of S. Iohn Lateran , whither all the world ( almost ) comes to see him ; where he is attended by the whole Colledge of Cardinals , and whereat there are many Embassadours of kings and Princes : for a closer place were fitter for such a purpose . They might more conueniently haue made triall of his humanitie in the conclaue where he was chosen .

And so they did , it seemes : for presently vpon their electing of him before they proclaimed him Pope , they set him in a chaire in their conclaue , as you may reade in the booke of holy ceremonies dedicated to Leo the 10. Whereby you may see how idlely a a Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. Bellarmine talkes , who taking vpon him to cleare the point , neuer speakes of his sitting in the chaire in the conclaue , but onely of his sitting in certaine other chaires at S. Iohn Laterans , as though he had bene chaired onely in publike , and not in priuate : and that he himself had said sufficiently to the point in question , by prouing that in publike there was no such conclusion tried with the Pope : whereas the conclusion was tried in secret . But can you tell me what the end is why the Pope sits in such a chaire in publike ?

Marry to the end that thereby he may be put in mind , that he is not God , but man : in as much as he stands in need of a close stoole as well as others : for so saith b b Cap. 20. p. 177. and 188. Florimondus .

I promise you and he had need to be put in mind thereof . For though c c N. D. in his Warn-word to Sir Fr. Hastings Encounter 1. cap. 2. fol. 30. some Papists shamefully denie it , there haue bene popish clawbackes , d d Cap. Cum inter . Extrau . Ioh. 22. impress . Paris . 1513. & Lugduni . 1555 who in plaine words haue termed the Pope , as e e Ioh. 20 28. S. Thomas termed Christ : their Lord and God : and there are still f f Planè supremum in terris numen . Stapleton princip. fid. doctrin praefat ad Greg. 13. who giue him such titles as are due to God , and ascribe like power to him and God . But me thinks , they should not need to haue set him in such a chaire to such a purpose ; for his owne necessitie would haue driuen him to set himselfe thereon ordinarily euery day : and his chamber-pot would haue serued to put him in minde of his humanitie sufficiently . For Antigonus the elder knew by that , that he was man and not a God , as g g Part. 2. Moral . lib. de Iside & Osi●●de . Plutarch writeth . Besides , me thinkes they should not haue intended such a mysterie by such a ceremonie , because they set him therein before he was in his pontificalibus : for till he be mitred , till he be crowned , till he haue receiued the keyes , whereby is denoted his power to bind and loose : and a rod , whereby is denoted his power to punish the obstinate : me thinkes there should be no feare of forgetting himselfe . For till such ceremonies be performed , he is not in his ruffe . Againe , had it not bene better thinke you , if they had aimed at anie such marke , to haue caused a boy to come euery morning vnto the Popes chamber dore ( after the example of h h Stobaeus serm. 19. ex Aeliano . Philip king of Macedonia ) who should haue whoopt him out of his bed , and bid him remember , that he was mortall ?

If you like not Florimondus coniecture touching that ceremonie , what say you to i i Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. Bellarmines , which is : That he is set on such a stoole , to signifie how he is raised from base estate , to supreme honour ?

I say Bellarmines coniecture is as improbable , and fond as Florimondus . For your Popes , since Pope Ioanes dayes , haue bene chosen for the most part out of the number of your Cardinals . And your Cardinals estate is not so base , as that he who is aduanced from that vnto the Papacie , can be truely said , to be taken in any sort from off a close stoole . For they are generally k k Cardinalatus celsitudo ac splendor , dignitati regiae comparatur Sixtus . 5. in constitut. 5. in princip. & sect. Praeterea . Ioh. Franciscus Leo. in Thesauro fori Ecclesiastici , part. 1. cap. 2. nu. 1. Princes fellowes . Yea some of them ( you cannot but know ) haue not bene ashamed to prefixe their owne names before their owne kings , vsing these words : I and my king . Wherefore vnlesse you can render me some better reason , why your Popes are set on such a seate , I shall remaine perswaded that in former times it was for proofe of their humanitie , vpon the accident aforesaid .

Enioy your opinion for me . But where reade you that there was such an Image in the Church of Siena , which the Iesuites would haue defaced , but that the Bishop of the place would not suffer them ?

That I haue heard by many trauellers , and read in maister Bel ; both in his booke of m m Lib. 2 cap. 6 Conclus. 3. pag. 80 Motiues concerning the Romish religion , and in his n n Part. 3. cap. 2. p. 191. Suruey of Poperie : wherevnto neuer a Papist of you all dare answer .

Yes we dare , though we do not . But I can tel you newes . o o Florim cap. 22. p. 194. That Image of Pope Ioane , which was set vp in the Church of Siena , is cast downe by the commandement of Clement the 8. by the meanes of Caesar Baronius , at the request of Florimondus . Caesar Baronius hath certified Florimondus so much by a letter , and for ioy , p p Pag. 195. Florimondus hath published it vnto the world .

What ? is that Image cast downe too ? Florimondus might do well , to make request to the present Pope , that those bookes which write of Pope Ioane may be burned ; in hope , that the present Pope will as readily burne the bookes , as Clement the 8. threw downe that Image , and Pius Quintus the other . And so in time to come , when all euidences are imbezeled , and all monuments defaced , and made out of the way , it will be a plaine case there was neuer any Pope Ioane .

Oh! this angers you I perceiue . And yet why should you be angrie at the throwing downe of this ? For suppose it had stood still , is there any sence that because of such an Image , we should be bound the rather to beleeue there was such a Pope ? q q Si ea quae ab artificibus manu finguntur , credamus esse vera , interdum veteris & noui Testamenti historiam peruertemus , &c. Florim p. 193. I can tell you if we beleeue Painters and caruers we may soone marre all : for in Saint Andrewes Church at Burdeux , one of the excellentest Churches in all France , our Sauiour Christ is described ascending vp to heauen vpon the backe of a flying Eagle : which stands not well with the Scripture .

That s true , if we beleeue your painters and caruers , we shall soone marre all indeed . For we find the Trinity painted by you , somtimes in the likenes of a man with three faces : sometimes in the likenesse of a man , with two heads , hauing a doue between them ; both which fashions of painting the Trinitie , are monstrous in r r Lib. 2. de Imag. cap 8. Bellarmines opinion . We find our Sauiour Christ painted with long haire , as though he had bene a Nazarite by vow : which conceit is controlled by s s For Nazarites must drinke no wine . Numb. 6. 3. yet our Sauior did , Mat. 11. 19. & 26. 29. Scripture . We find him set on a weathercocke vpon the top of the Temple of Ierusalem , as though that Temple had had a spire steeple like ours : t t Tho. de Truxillo . Ord. praedic . Domin . 1. Quadrag . conc. 1. which is neither so , nor so . We finde the virgine Marie treading on the Serpents head , which the u u Gen. 3. Scriptures foretold , that Christ himselfe should do . We finde her set out in a gowne of wrought gold : whereas ( no question ) she was meanely apparelled : and with a paire of Beades in her hand , whereas of a thousand yeares after Christ there were y y Teste Polydoro Virgilio de Inuent . rerum , lib. 5. cap. 9 no Beads in the world . In like sort we find z z Hieron . ab Oleastro in Exod. 34. & Aug. Steuchus in recognit . vet. Test . ad Hebraicam verit . in Exod. 34. Moses painted with two hornes ; a a Iansen . Concord . Euang. cap. 13. Iohn Baptist , in a raw Camels skin ; b b In nouis Biblijs Sixti Quinti & Clem 8. yet he writ it 90 aetatis annum excedens , vt docet Baron . Annal To 1 ad An. 99. nu. 2. Iohn the Euangelist , like a beardles boy , when he writ his Gospel ; c Marie Magdelen in a loose gowne ; d d Scultingus Confessio Hieronymiana . Polyd . Virg. de Inuent . rerum , lib. 4. cap. 9. S. Ierome in his Cardinals robes : all which is false as God is true . Besides , your painters recommend vnto vs a Saint on horsebacke , whom they call George . And an other Saint on foote , as big as a Giant , whom they call Christopher : and a she Saint , broken vpon a where , whom they call Catharin : and a fourth drawne in peeces with horses , whom they call Hippolitus : whereas in all antiquity , e e For proofe whereof see D. Rayn . de Ro. Ecclesiae Idololat. lib 1. c. 5. nu. 21. &c. there is no mention of any such Saints . So that you neuer spoke a truer word in your life , then this , that if we beleeue painters and caruers , we shall soone marre all . But what if booke proofe concurre with painting and caruing ? may we not then without feare of marring all , giue credit to painters and caruers ? your f f Lib. 2. de Ro. Pont. cap. 11. Bellarmin is of opinion that there can be no error in substance , as long as besides booke-proofe , there be monuments of stone , or of brasse , for the proofe of any ancient report . And if he speake the words of truth , the truth is with vs ; for besides monuments of stone , we haue the testimonies of many writers .