Seuen dayes conference betweene a catholicke christian, and a catholicke Romane. Concerning some controuersies of religion. By William Cowper, B. of Galloway.

SEVEN DAYES CONFERENCE . BETWEENE A Catholicke CHRISTIAN , and a Catholicke ROMANE . C.

SIR , you are w●lcome home from Italie .

I thanke you heartielie good Countriman .

Tell mee I pray you how it goes with you , are you sound both in bodie and in minde ?

Why , what meane you by that ?

Because many trauelled in these partes where you haue beene hauing returned worse then they went a field .

Wherein worse ?

With the botch of Aegypt in their bodie , the iust plague of God for corporall whoredome ; and the leprosie of Babel in their soules , wherewith God also punisheth them who loue not Sions beautie , and delight not in the light of the Gospell .

But I was neither in Aegypt nor in Babel .

How so , was you not in Rome , and other parts vnder the Popes Dominions ?

Yea that I was .

Then was you both in Aegypt and Babel .

I vnderstand not your mysticall Theologie .

Neither can yee so long as you are in the mist , and haue your mind couered with a vaile .

You speake your pleasure there , for I see all is well as your selfe .

I would you did , for so you might easily see that Rome is Spirituall Aegypt , wherin the light of God is obscured : and Babel , wherein is a fearefull captiuitie of Gods people , and such a horrible confusion of languages , that when the Builder speaks , the people vnderstands not what he sayes : yea it is Sodom , which for her vile abhominations will shortly bee burnt with fire , and brought to vtte● desolation neuer to bee repaired againe .

Let mee alone , I see you are stil in your old humour , and it maruels me much , that so many in this Land being conuerted to the bosome of the mother Church of Rome , you should still continue in this new Hereticall opinion .

O now I see the bile of Babel vpon you : you will call her a mother Church whom God cals a mother of Whoredomes , and you charge vs with noueltie , and heresie ; but wee will proue by Gods grace , what you call heresie , and noueltie is veritie and antiquitie .

Antiquitie say you , fie , speake neuer of it : for your eldest Doctours are Luther , and Caluin .

Nay by your leaue ( Sir ) wee haue neither our faith from Luther , nor from Caluin : but answere you as the Apostle Saint Paul answered his aduersaries , when they charged him with the like crimes that you charge vs with , and I pray you marke his Apologie : Act. 24.14 . I confesse that after the way which they call Heresie , so worship I the Lord God of my Fathers .

What euer Saint Paul speakes , I would not haue you speaking of Fathers , seeing you haue forsaken the Religion of your Fathers .

You deceiue your selfe if you thinke wee wil not stand to the Religion of our Fathers .

Ah , but your Fathers were Papists .

Nay but our Fathers were Protestants .

Now in good faith you moue me to laughter .

You may laugh as you list , but haue no cause .

Was not your Father , and Grandfather , and their Fathers before them for many ages Papists ?

What of that ? they who in regard of time and truth were long before them , and should be followed as Fathers to vs and them both , were Protestants .

That is but a shift of your owne .

It is no shift , it is a truth ; and you shall see it your selfe if you will consider who were Pauls Fathers , whom he saies he followed in the worshipping of God .

What were the names of his Fathers were I cannot tell , but I see they haue been Israelites of the Tribe of Beniamin .

We haue not that to stand vpon , what they were for their persons , or names either , but what was their Religion : remember you not that hee sayes himselfe , he was brought vp at the feet of Gamali●l ?

Yea I doe .

Tell mee now of what Religion was Gamali●l ?

I see he hath been a Pharesie .

And think you that Saint Paul when hee made his Apologie , worshipped God after the manner of Pharesies ?

I thinke it not .

How then sayes hee , that he worshipped God after the maner of his Fathers , seeing his Fathers were Pharesies ?

I thinke he meanes not of these fathers , who liued last before him , but transcending them he passes vp to his elder fathers Abraham , Isaack , Iacob .

Was hee not then wrongfully accused of noueltie , as one who had forsaken the religion of his fathers , because hee forsooke the Religion of such Fathers as liued last before him ?

I thinke so indeede : His Apologie cleares him sufficiently both of heresie and noueltie , which his aduersaries would haue imputed to him .

Now ( Sir ) I haue you where I would : why should not the like Apologie cleare vs in the like case : for albeit we haue foresaken the heresies of Papistrie maintained by them , that liued last before vs , yet doe wee worship the Lord our God , as these fathers did , whom Iustin Martyr call●s , Patres Patrum , & whom with him we will prefer to any posterior fathers whatsoeuer .

That cannot be , seeing it is known , it is not threescore yeers since your Religion came into this Country .

No ( Sir ) I will make known to you , that it is 1500 yeeres since this same Religion preached and professed now , was then preached and professed by our Ancient fathers . The first Religion that euer we had was gentilisme , our fathers worshipped Diana , the Sun , the Moone , the Starres .

That was a pittifull blindnesse .

So it was indeed : but in the first hundreth yeere we embraced Christianity , and eight hundreth yeere after Christ , we were infected with Papistrie , and now againe hath God called vs by the light of the gospel to our ancient Religion of Christianity , whereby wee worshippe the Father in his sonne according to his word , and no other way .

You speake faire enough to it , be as it will ; but if it be true that you say , then would you be in communion with the Catholike Church .

And so thanks to God we are , reioycing as I said vnto you , that the Lord by his Gospell hath called vs to bee Christian Catholikes .

That is also● a new stile of your owne , that you will bee called Christian Catholikes .

If you were acquainted with antiquity , you would not call it new , with many such nouelties you charge vs , which are indeed ancient truthes : it is eleuen hundreth yeeres since in the seuenth Councell of Carthage , professors of the Gospell were called Catholike Christians .

But to let the style passe , how can you say , you are in communion with the Catholike Church , seeing you haue made separation● from the Romane Church , and refuse to bee stiled Roman Catholikes ?

The Romane Church in her best estate was neuer more but a member of the Catholike Church , and there is no more reason to cal the Roman church the Catholike Church , nor to say , that Rome is all Italy , or Pa●●s is all France : but now seeing the Ro●an Church hath plaied the Whore , made a shameful Apostasie from her first estate , wee haue done no wrong in seperating from her : but for our warrant haue Gods owne Proclamation commanding vs to doe so .

Where haue you that Proclamation ?

There it is , Come out of Babell my people .

But no word is there of Rome

I shall proue to you that this Babel is Rome , and your own Doctors cannot deny it .

If you make all good you haue said , I will say no more , but there is many one beguiled .

If you will heare mee by Gods grace I shall make it good .

I will not refuse to heare you , and I trust also to answere you .

It is not me you shall hear , but the voice of the Gospell , which if it were heard at Rome , I am of that mind , the Popes kingdome should not long continue .

It will bee hard for you to get hearing there .

And why ? since Sodomits there haue their brothels , and Iewes haue their Synagogues , wherein they curse Christ , why may not Protestants bee tolerated to haue a Church wherein to preach ?

Good sooth they loue you worse then any of them .

I thinke it true ; for on● Deuill can dwell well inough with an other , yea a legion of them in one man , but none of them will giue place to Christ . But tell me how long , God willing , mind you to stay in this towne ?

I hope to be in it all this weeke .

Then I pray you , let vs spare euery day one howre or two for conference , and I will come to you to your owne chamber .

Agreed am I , and let our conference to morow continue about antiquitie , for I think it somewhat strange that you should pretend it .

Well . let it be so .

THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE . Concerning Antiquitie in General .

R. WElcome ( Sir ) I see you are a true man , and keepe promise .

What I am not in good faine would I be .

Thinke you not best we begin where wee left yesternight ?

Yea indeede .

What say you then of Antiquitie ? will you not graunt that to bee the true Church which hath the most auncient Doctrine ?

That is a thing out of all question ; the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace , and beleeue to be most true .

You will myre your selfe incontinent , for these which yee call corruptions in the Church of Rome , some of them will be found a thousand yeares old .

What is that to the matter ? Seeing the truth whereby we condemne these corruptions will be found elder then they , and wee , to speake with Vincentius , wil euer preferre the olde Faith to new vnfaithfulnesse : for if you thinke this a good Argument : Such a doctrine or ceremonie should be receiued , because it is one thousand and two hundred yeares old , then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must bee receiued for a truth , because they were taught by him one thousand and sixe hundred yeares since .

But said you not euen now , you would acknowledge that to be most true which is most ancient ?

I say that same yet ; And that you may conceiue it the better , I pray you consider that truth and errour , suppose they came not of the same parents , yet in regard of time they are like two twinnes , but the vantage of time that is , truth hath it , suppose very little .

I pray you let me heare that at more length , for I see it will greatly helpe to cleare this point .

Will you goe vp to the Church in Paradise , and you shall see the first voice that sounded there was Gods voice : For in the first two Chapters of Genesis , you will heare nothing but Deus dixit , God said : but incontinent in the third Chapter comes in , Et Serpens dixit , and the Serpent said .

I see that clearely .

And I am glad you doe so : But I pray you consider , wil any man be so mad as to thinke that Sathans lies shall bee receiued for a truth , because they are now neere sixe thousand yeares old ?

It were no reason indeed , because albeit his lies ●ee olde , yet ( as you haue said ) there is a Truth elder .

I pray you remember that , that it may confirme you against the craft of Sathan , when hee would couer errour with a shew of Antiquitie .

I hope to doe so .

Now will yee come down againe to the dayes of Christ Iesus ; may you not see that when our Lord sent out his Apostles , Sathan also sent out his false Apostles ▪ and when Simon Peter comes out to Preach the Gospell , Simon Magus is stirred vp to Preach heresies ?

I see that also .

Then let vs agree in this , since Truth is to bee sought from our fathers according as we are commanded , Enquire for the good and olde way ; we will goe seeke it from our most ancient fathers .

Truely it caries with it I thinke a reason , that we should not be mooued with the opinion of any father , where they varie from the doctrine of the first fathers .

You ▪ speake now as you should , and as before I shewed you was the mind of that ancient father Iustine Martyr : Quest. 119 when it was obiected to him , such a father thought such a thing , he answered , Sed pater patrum Apostolus aliter sensit : And herein to confirme you , if controuersies of Religion were decided , as our Sauiour decided the question of Polygamie , the debate betweene vs and the Romish Church were soone ended .

How did Christ resolue that contro●ersie of Polygamie ?

By this rule , It was not so from the beginning : Leauing this to vs as a maxime in Religion , and a most sure rule whereby to trie truth from falshood , What hath not be●ne from the beginning , let it bee reiected as a noueltie . And herein the ancient fathers agree with vs . Be yee sollowers of me ( saith the Apostle ) as I am of Christ : if I , or an Angel , &c. Mihi antiquitas Iesi● Christus est , cui non obedire manifestus est , & irremissibilis interitus . Ignat . Epist. ad Philad ▪

Non attendendum quid quis ante nos faciendum putauerit , sed quid , qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit . Cypri . lib. 2. Epist. 3.

Neque enim hominis consue●udinem , sed Deiveritatem sequi oportet . Ibid.

Non est de consuetudine praescribendum , sed ratione vincendum . Ad Quintinum .

Obstinatio est , & praesumptio humanam traditionem diuinae dispositioni antepone●e , nec animadvertere ●ndignaeri , & irasci deum ; quoties diuina praecepta soluit , & praeterit humana traditio . Ad Pompeium .

Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris . Ibid.

Si ad diuinae traditionis caput , & originem reuertamur , cessat error humanus . Ibid

Frustrà quidam , quiratione vincuntur , consuetudinem nòbis opponunt , q●asi con●uetudo sit mator ver●●●● . ●d ●uba●anum .

Nec 〈◊〉 , n●c m●iorum erro● seq●●●●● , e●● , sed au●horitas Script●r●r●● , & ●●i docem is imper●●●m : 〈◊〉 ●●●iaei po●● Baalim abieruns quos ●idicerunt a patribus . Hie●on . in lerem . cap. 9.

Omnes h●retici aetati Eccle●ie vniuer sa●is comparati , minores , tempore congrue vocantur : quia ipsi ab eâ , non autem ipsa egressa est ●b illis . Greg. in Iob. lib. 10. Sect. 37.

Sicut in omnibus veritas imaginem antecedit , postremò similitudo succedit : ita prior veritas quam haeresis . Tertul. praescrip. aduersus haeret .

But what makes these against the Church of Rome ?

Yea , very much , for all these nouelties which shee hath inuented , and intruded into the Church , she colours them with the shadow of ancient custome , and so very craftily vnder the name of Antiquitie , fights against Antiquitie .

It is not enough to affirme that , vnlesse yee qualifie it .

I will make it cleare to you , if first yee heare a notable testimonie o● Vincentius to this same purpose . Cap. 10.

What sayes he ?

It is a propertie of Christian modestie not to deliuer their owne things to the after-commers , but to keepe things receiued from their fore-beers .

Very well ; that place makes ●gainst you who will not keepe the Religion of your fore-beers .

It makes not against vs , but against the Church of Rome , who hath departed from the Religion of them who are theirs and our fore●eer● also , as the remnant of his words will declare vnto you .

Reade them out then .

Hee is expounding heere he Apostles words : If I , or an Angell from heauen should bring to you another doctrine , then that which yee haue receiued , let him be accursed .

What sayes hee of it ?

These are his words : If Peter , if Andrew , if Iohn , yea if the whole Apostles would Preach to you an other way then is deliuered in the Gospell , let them be accursed : To Preach vnto Christian Catholickes , besides ●hat which we haue receiued , was neuer , is neuer , shall neuer be lawfull .

Let it bee so , the Church of Rome hath deliuered no doctrine but that shee hath rec●iued .

Yes , but shee hath ; and now once for all , I will giue you amongst many , one cleare example of it . In the thirteenth Session of the Councell of Constance , as is Recorded by Carranza one of your owne , and Registred in your Canon Law , there is an Act made of this tenour . Licet in Primitiuâ Ecclesiâ huiusmodi Sacramentum reciperetur a fidelibus sub vtraque specie , tamen haec consuetudo ad euitandum aliqua pericula , & scandala , est rationa●iliter introducta , quòd a conficientibus sub vtraque specie , a laicis tantummodo sub specie panis suscipiatur . Albeit in the Primitiue Church , this Sacrament was receiued of the faithful vnder both the kinds , yet to eschewe some perils and offences , this custome now with very good reason is brought in , that the Priest should receiue it vnder both the kinds , but the people should receiue the bread onely , and not the cup. What thinke yee now of this place ? Hath not the Church of Rome here deliuered a Doctrine which shee hath not receiued ? Is there not heere a manifest changing of Christs ordinance , and by their owne confession a plaine departing from Antiquitie ? What thinke you of this one instance ?

I will aduise vpon it .

Doe so , but I pray you fight not against the cleare light ; and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes Antiquitie , Antiquitie ; the ●athers , the fathers ; yet this one instance among a hundreth , prooues them to bee fathers o● nouelties : what say yee ? Tell me , like yee to heare any more of Vincentius ?

I am content , but let mee know ●irst what writer hee is , and whose Translation is that .

He was a French-man , he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ , and heere it is Translated by Ninian Winzet , a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome , which yee cannot refuse .

Reade on , what sayes he further ?

There is a commaund giuen to Timothie , Depos●um serua , which in all good reason should binde his successors : Thus hee expounds it : Keepe that which is committed to thee , not that which is inuented by thee : which thou hast receiued , not which thou hast imagined : wherein thou art no Author , inuenter , sorger , but a keeper ; not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper ; not a guide , but a follower : saue that which is giuen thee , saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken , vncorrupt : what thou hast receiued , render it againe , if thou hast receiued Gold , render Gold againe ; slippe not in one thing in stead of an other , for Gold lay not downe lead , nor brasse .

I heare all that , and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine .

Then take heed● ; the Apostle protests he d●liuered that to the Corinthians , which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS .

I know that .

Hee commanded Timothie , and all others his successors in the worke of the Ministerie to doe the like .

And good reason so they should .

Then there is the point ; How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise ?

Wherein doe they otherwise ?

Haue you forgot so soone ? Saint Paul deliuered to the people as wel the Cup as the Bread , because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus : how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people ?

Why ? May not the Church make Lawes ?

No such Lawes as derogate to Christs Lawes , for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-makers , but Law-keepers : I pray you giue place to the truth , and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie , who dare make the like of that ; Albeit Christ and his Apostles , and the Primitiue Church did this , yet we for good causes will doe oth●rwayes .

Alway that is but one ●oint ,

But seeing you cannot denie but they haue broken , and corrupted the auncient Catholicke faith in one point , you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest , vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word .

The Lord saue me from his curse .

Amen , but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse .

God grant it .

And so I wish from my heart it may be : But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring , so in both you are guiltie of sacrilegious adding and changing : and so cannot ●schew the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is .

How So ?

As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread , so yee haue added Water to the Wine , which is a new inuention and forgerie , albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first , yet it is certain , it was not in Christs institution , and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ , and so should bee reiected as a noueltie .

That is but a smal thing , and there may be many reasons to excuse it .

No : not one ; Let no man bee wiser then God . Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ ? But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle , Oyle , and Salt to the element of Water : was this done by Christ or his Apostles ? You father the Oyle vpon Siluester , but confesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him , and so it is an other ancient noueltie .

It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not ; but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptisme , and can not annull it .

I graunt they doe not annull Baptisme , yet are they inexcusable , who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ : Are not his Sacraments the Seales of his couenant ?

I confesse they are .

Why then , since it is treason to pare , or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Signet , is it not Sacrilegious boldness● to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament ? But least you should thinke the controuersi● onely to bee about these things , you shall know that , except the Article of the Trinitie , the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted , so that it is most certaine , This Church of Rome with the doctrine , and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her , was not in the Primitiue Church .

O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter , from one of their Doctors : That there is a great difference betweene a Church in her infancie , and her older and riper age : For as it growes in age , so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof .

Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge , as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues , and because it is your last and greatest defence , I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius , which you will like better then mine , that this makes nothing for you .

Come on let vs see ; what sayes Vincentius ?

He grants , There should be an encr●ase in Faith , but not a change of Faith .

That is a strange distinction , and yet so honest , that in truth I dare not gaine-say it .

Heare him then ; hee expounds the two parts of his distinction : To encrease ( saith he ) is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified : To change , is when a thing going out of it selfe is translated & turned into an other . To make this cleare , hee illustrates it by a proper similitude : Let ( sayes hee ) the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies , which albe●t in processe of yeres they grow , yet they remaine the same : the same members , the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men , though in the one stronger and greater , in the other smaller and weaker : but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind , or any thing bee eked to the number of the members , or taken from the same , then either the body perisheth , or becomes monstrous , or at the least becomes weake . So in Religion , if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie , we shall make the Church a brothell of filthie and abominable errours , which before was a Temple of chaste and vndefiled veritie , where as the Church of Christ should bee a diligent keeper of the doctrine deliuered to it , changing nothing , diminishing nothing , adding nothing . Now these are the words of Vincentius , and I demand of you out of the light of your conscience if you can gaine-say them .

In truth it is a pretie discourse , and I embrace all that he hath said as a truth .

Aduise you th●n yet , what yee wil say for the Church of Rome , since it can not bee denied they haue changed , diminished , and added to the ancient Catholicke faith : Some ceremonies and opinions they haue which Antiquitie knewe not , & some the ancient Church had , which they haue pared away , and in a word haue so change , that in Rome is nothing anci●nt but the name .

That seemes very hard : For , though in some ceremonies there bee adding , paring , and chaunging , yet I can not thinke it is in substance .

You are farre deceiued , for they haue made a change in the substance .

Wherein ?

In the maine point of saluation , as now among many I will shew you by this one . What Diuinitie is this , to teach people to pray that God would bring them to Heauen by an other blood then Christs blood ?

O that can not be .

Nay maruaile not , there is the Prayer of their owne Masse booke .

Tu per Thomae sanguinem , quem ille pro te pendit , fac nos Christe scandere , quò Thomas ascendit .

I haue not he●rd of that , for my owne part I would bee loath to chaunge the blood of the couenant , or to disgrace it so farre as to ioyne any other with it .

The more wise are you , for it is by Christs blood Onely , that reconciliation is made . But what thinke yee of confidence , should wee put considence in any but in God ?

No truely .

What a Prayer is this then ? Inua ergo omnes gentes In te Sancte confidentes Confessor Armigile .

And is not Prayer thinke you and Inuocation , a speciall point of Gods seruice ?

So it is .

Why then is it giuen to Saints ; and that Psalter which containes Prayers & praises to God , all turned ouer to the Virgine Marie ? Should mens traditions , to whome God by his heauenly oracle hath not borne testimonie , be receiued , Pari pietatis affectu & reuerentiâ , with like deuotion and reuerence , as the word of God ?

Who sayes that ?

The Councell of Trent . Dist. 19. ca. Si Rom●norum & in Canonici● . Should the foure Councels bee receiued as the foure Euangelists , or should the Canon Law and decretall Epistles bee receiued as Canonicall Scripture ?

I know not what that is .

Then I will tell you : Twelue hundreth yeares after Christ , Gratian a Benedictine Monke , gathered together the sentences of Councels , Fathers , and Popes , concerning sundrie matters of Religion , and set it forth , which is commonly called Decretum ; and after him certain Popes , as Gregory the ninth , Boniface the eight , Clemens the fift , Iohn the twentie two , following the example of Gratian , haue gathered the like : These are called Decretals , and Extrauagants added to Decretum ; all of them make vp the Canon law , which now must bee equalled with the word , and all to bee receiued , as if Peter his owne mouth had pronounced them . Is not this against the golden rule of Vincentius , to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie ; What say you to it ?

In truth I can not iudge of that which I know not .

I will giue you but one Decrete of this law , and let you see how it strikes the Apostle S. Paul in the teeth , that by it you may iudge of the rest . Caus. 26. quaest. 2. & Caus. 31. qu●st. 1. Secundam accipere vxorem secundùm Apostoli praeceptum licitum est ; secundum autem veritatis rationem verè fornicatio est . Second marriage ●ccording to the Apostles precept is lawful , but according to the truth of reason is plaine fornication . I am not now to dispute whether Church-men may Marrie or not : Causa . 26. Quest. 2. themselues grant it is not forbidden , neither by Legall , nor Apostolicall authoritie , yet they will forbid it . But what Diuinitie is this ? According to the Apostles precept , it is lawfull to Marrie , but according to truth and reason it is Whoredome , that is as they would saye , according to the word of God in the Bible it is true , but according to the word of God in the Canon Law written twelue hundreth yeares after Christ it is false . Did the Apostle giue any precept without reason or truth ? How dare they call that vnlawfull , which the Apostle cals lawfull : W●e be to them who call good euill . You hold silence at these things and no maruaile , for I thinke no honest man can approoue them . But to return to things of great importance , I assure you the onely question and controuersie in Religion this day may be taken vp in this question : Is Iesus the Sonne of Mary the Christ ? Or as the Baptist takes it vp , Art thou hee who is come , or shall wee looke for an other ?

I thinke no man will denie that .

Yea the Turke , and Pagane say , such Christ as Christians beleeue is neither come , nor wil come : the Iewes say hee is not come , but hee will come : The Catholicke Romane in word confesseth him , but in deede denies him : Quem praedicant impugnant , both in his Person and Offices .

That is a strange assertion , & such as I haue not heard .

It is strange indeede , and I would wee had no cause to charge them with it , but beecause it is the most weightie point whereof yet w● haue spoken , wee will referre it to bee handled in a meeter time .

I am content , prouiding you forget not to make that good which you haue said .

If I forget , I pray remember me : And now this Dispute about Antiquitie , I conclude with IGNATIVS : Mihi antiquitas est Iesus Christus , cui non obedire manifestus est , & irremissibilis interitus . Epist. ad Philadelphos . My Antiquitie is Iesus Christ ; to disobey him is manifest and remedilesse destruction : and with that which A●gustine said to the Pelagians : Quia isti disserunt , De verb. Apos● ser. 14. & disputant nescio quas impias nouitates , etiam nos conantur arguere quòd aliquod nouum dicamus . Because these f●llowes maintaine certaine impious nouelties , they also goe about to charge vs , as if wee did teach any new thing . But of this if you please you shall heare more .

It pleaseth me very well , & I shall attend your comming if you may at seuen howres .

Let it be so .

THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE . Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND , and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister , & not a mother Church vnto it . C.

WHat say you to day ( Sir ) haue you considered the points of our last conference ?

Yea I haue beene ( as I may ) thinking vpon them .

What ? Is not your heart mooued to come to vs ?

I find it mooued , but not remooued from the Church of Rome .

Tell mee ( I pray you ) what is that which holdes you from vs ?

To bee plaine with you , since the Church of Rome is your mother Church , you can with no good conscience forsake her .

If that be all your scruple , I hope to resolue you : for this day by Gods grace I will shewe that we of this Church of Scotland had neuer our faith from the Church of Rome ; yea that in her best estate shee was no more but a sister Church vnto vs . The next day God willing I wil shew you that the Church of Rome is Apostatique now , not like that Church of olde , which the Apostle commended , and is not onely a Whoore her selfe , but the mother of Whooredomes .

You haue taken much in hand .

No more then by Gods grace I hope to qualifie , if you wil with patience heare me , and interrupt me not .

Speake as long as you please , I shall heare you .

No ( Sir ) I will be loath to burden you with multitude of words , but shall bee very well content , when you heare any point wherein weight is , that you warne me to cleare it .

Well , I shall doe so God willing .

Then first I will saye , Rome hath beene no mother Church , neither to the Churches of Asia : these were planted by Apostles and Apostolicke men ; Nor yet to the Churches of A●ricke : Christianity was first conueied to them by Marke the Euangelist , and the Eunuch of Ethiopia , whom Philip baptised : And I can let you see ( but that I shall disgresse ouer farre ) that fiue hundreth yeres after Christ the Churches of Africke would not acknowledge the Bishop of Rome their superiour .

Our question is not now concerning them : for I knowe the Church of Rome receiued her faith from the Churches of Asia , and they of Asia receiued it not from the Church of Rome . And as to them of Africke , whatsoeuer is disputable , there wee leaue it as not pertaining to our present puropse .

Oh good Sir , you will grant then that the Church of Rome is farre posterior to the Churches of A●ia , and , if it bee compared with them , is but a daughter Church .

That I can not denie : But the Churches of Europe , and specially these of the west parts were first conuerted to Christ by the Church of Rome .

No ( Sir ) yee are deceiued in that also , and this is the point wherein I am to contradict you .

I am sure you will not contradict mee , without some warrant .

That were no reason : I will let you see that the most famous Churches of Europe ( as their Records testifie ) had not their faith from the Church of Rome , and then I will come to our owne .

I think long to heare that .

And I will delay you no longer . In the Councel of Trent , there was a great question betweene the French and Spanish Prelates , about the first place : The greatest Argument that any of them vsed , was from the Antiquitie of their Christianitie , which none of them alleadged , they had from the Church of Rome , albeit at that time both of them sought the Popes fauour .

From whence got they it then , if they got it not from Rome ?

The Spaniards alleadged , they were made Christians by Saint Iames , who after hee had Preached the Gospell in Spaine , returned to Palestina , and was president of that famous Councell holden at Ierusalem , Act. 15 then being Martyred , his bones were brought to Compostella , and there buried . The French replied that their narration was fabulous , and that it is more likely , if any Apostle came to Spaine , hee came rather by land to France , and so taught them by the way , then otherwise by Sea : And if any credit might be giuen to such traditions , they could also with more probabilitie alledge that Lazarus , and Nathaniel taught the Gospell among them ▪ & this at that time they spake for themselues . But out of more certaine Storie this might bee said also for them , th●t Philip Preached the Gospell in France : CRESCENS also Pauls Disciple , for there it is said 2. Tim. 4. TITVS is gone to Dalmatia , and Cresc●ns to Galatia : Euseb. lib. 3. cap. calles it Gallia . Besides him Trophymus , Cent. 2. c. 2. another of Pauls Disciples taught at Orleance : Photinus againe , a very worthy man , and after him Irenaeus taught the Gospell at Lyons . Germaine was first conuerted by Lucius of Cyrene , Auentinus in Annal. Boiorum . Paules kinsman and companion . Yea the Churches of Italy will not bee found to haue the Church of Rome for their Mother Church , for why Barnab●s first Preached the Gospell at Millan , as testifieth Sabellicus , Sabel . Enn●a● . 7. li. 4. and Apollinaris taught at Rauenna . But to come to the Church of Rome , tell mee , who did first conuert the Romanes to the Christian faith ?

Who but Saint Peter !

I will not now contend with you about that matter though it bee very dispu●able , Whether Peter was at Rome or not ; and your owne man Clemens , Clem. lib. 1. Recognitionum and Dorotheus also affirme , that Barnabas first taught the Gospell at Rome : But if Peter came to Rome , what time came he to it ?

I cannot well remember .

I will helpe you : Lib. 3. Cap. 1. & 3. Irenaeus sayes , S. Peter came to Rome when Saint Matthew wrote his Euangell , in the third yeare of Cai●s , & fortie one after Christ . As for Saint Paul hee wrote not his Epistle to Rome , till the thirteenth yeare of ● Claudius , Cen. Lib. 1. Cap. 10. and fiftie fiue years after Christ , and himself came not to Rome till the fiftie eight yeare after Christ .

What would you make of all that ?

Either yee must grant the Church of Rome was not conuerted by Saint Peter , or then there was no Church there before the fortie one yeare after our Lord , at which time Saint Peter came to it .

Let it be so .

Then I pray you consider , that the Church of this Land , being little posterior in time to the Church of Rome , there is no reason they should beare vs downe with the shadow of their Antiquitie , nor insult ouer vs , as if they were a mother Church to vs , seeing it pleased God to conuert vs to the Christian faith , almost as soone as themselues , and that not by them but by others whom he sent among vs .

But yee haue not made that cleare as yet .

What I haue not , I shall by Gods grace . In the second yeare of Claudi●s , and fortie foure yeares after Christ , Simon Zelotes an Apostle came to Britaine , and , Preached the Gospel : This was but three yeares after Simon Peter came to Rome .

How will you proue that ?

My proofes are ; Dorotheus in his Synopsis : Simon Zelotes peragratâ Mauritaniâ , & Aphrorum regione , Christ●m praedicauit tandem in Britannia , vbi crucifixus , occïsus , & sepultus est . Doroth. Againe , Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 40. sayes that Simon Zelotes hauing Preached to many Countreyes , at length Euangelij doctrinam ad occidentalem Oceanum insulasque Britannica● perfert , and both of them are cited by your late Cardinall , writer of the Historie , Baronius .

Is that all you haue for you ?

No : I haue more yet ; for Ioseph of Arimathea , Baron . Annales . about the yeare of our Lord fiftie three , came also to Britaine , and taught the Gospell : witnesses hereof are Balaeus , Flemingus , Capgrauus , Scropus , Polidorus Virgilius ; and as many thinke , he was sent by Philip out of France ouer to Britaine . Moreouer Theodoret witnesseth , that the Apostle Saint Paul after his deliuerance out of Prison vnder Nero , Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. Holius . came into Britaine , and taught the Gospell . And the same also is testified by Sophronius Patriarch of Ierusalem .

I remember indeede that in his Epistle to the Rom. 15.24 was then of purpose to haue come to Spaine .

And you may the more easily think he came to Britaine in like manner , seeing so famous an Author affirmes it : and you shal like it the better if you consider the matter he hath in hand , when he makes mention of the conversion of Britaine .

I pray you let me heare it .

The Graecians alledged that our first propagators of the evangell were base men , not comparable for wisedome and Learning to their Law-giuers , Lycurgus , Solon , and the rest : This Father replyed that the lawes of their Law-giuers were only receiued in Graecia , but that our first Preachers of the Gospell had in short time made the most famous Countries , and Kingdomes of the World to embrace it . An euident argument of a diuine power assisting them : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. for sayes hee our Fithers , and Publicans , and that Tent maker , or Cutter of Leather ( so hee calles Saint Paul ) hath not only made the Romans , and these who liue vnder their Empire to embrace the Christian faith , but also th● Scythians , Sauromatans , Indians , Ethiopians , Persians , Britans , Germans , and in a word hath induced all Nations , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to receiue the Lawes of CHRIST crucified . What thinke you of this testimonie ?

Truly I am glad to heare that the Lord among other Nations hath also had mercie on this Countrie of ours , to communicate to them the grace of the Gospell .

You shal yet heare more ; that Aristobolus , mentioned Rom. 16. came also to this Isle , and discharged the Office of a Bishop , as witnesseth the forenamed Dorotheus . May you not see wee are not inferiour to any Christian Countrie in this part of the World , and that we haue as many cleare witnesses of our Ancient Christian faith , as any nation of Europe hath for them ?

Indeede I see you haue more then I would haue beleeued , if their authoritie be good enough .

What need you doubt of their authoritie ? for if testimonies of Fathers of the Primitiue Church bee good to proue the Antiquitie of any Church in Europe , why should their authoritie be called in doubt when they speake for our Church ?

But we are informed that the Bishops of Rome were the first , who sent some of their Clergie to this Isle to convert it to the faith .

You may see the contrarie , by that which I haue said alreadie ; and I will yet make it more cleare to you . The first King of the South part of the Isle that embraced the Christian faith , was Lucius , in the y●are of our LORD one hundreth twentie and foure . In that same time Donald King of the North part of it became also a Christian .

That is true ; but Lucius required the Bishop of Rome to send him some teachers to instruct him in the Christian faith and ( as the Chronicle recordes ) he sent into Britaine , Damianus , ●nd Fugatianus .

What will you gather of that ?

That this I le was converted by such teachers as the Bishop of Rome sent into it .

How can you say that ? seeing many in the Kingdomes were conuerted before the Kings were converted , & your owne Baronius cannot denie it ; these are his wordes : Cum diu alioqui anie Euangelium Christi illu● perlatum fuisset , vt testatur Gilda sapiens : that long before those men Damianus , and Fuga●ianus came here , the Gospel was here , as witnesseth Gilda the wise : Seing your owne Writers are ●orced to confesse it , I maruel with what face can any man say , that the Gospell came to vs from Rome .

All that you haue yet said makes something for the Church of England ; nothing for the Church of Scotland .

W● inhabit both one Isle ; and what good or euill specially in Religion hath come to the one , hath beene fou●d by manifold experiences easily deriued to the other .

But what think you ; whether came the light of the Gospell first to you or to them ?

That is a Iesuiticall Policy to diuide them whome GOD hath coupled , and to cause vs to contend together in that , wherin we agree ioyntly to contend with the Church of Rome : what part of the Isle God did first illuminate with his light is nothing to the matter : If it was their glorie to haue the Sunne of righteousnesse first shining on them , wee enuie it not ; this is sufficient : the Lord had a Church here in this Isle as soon as in Rome , and neither they nor wee had our faith from Rome ; and if ●ou , or any for you will call in doubt the antiquitie of the Church of England , I warrant you , you shall finde a number both of Learned and Graue Diuines ( wherein they are not inferiour to any Church in Europe ) to answere for themselues . And if yet you craue further light concerning the antiquity of our Church , I will shew you that which may content you if you be reasonable .

Let me heare what is that .

Marke me this testimonie of Tertullian who liued in the two hundreth yeare of Christ : Adu●rsus I●daeos . cap. 7.8 . Britannorumloca Romanismaccessa Christo subdita sunt . Now what part of Britaine he meanes your owne Cardinall Ba●onius will declare vnto you : for when he hath said , magnam B●itanni●e partem fuisse liberam , then hee proues it by the wall built so often by Victo●ine , by Adri●n ; as hee cites ex A●lio Spartianom Adriano , and an other ce●●●tius murus built by Antonin●s Pius ; as he cites out of Iulius Capitolinus in Pio. By this saith he , it is euident that Britannia was diuided by a wall ; ●aron . annal. anno Christi 183 Sect. 6. that part within the w●ll was possessed by Rom●ns , the other without Britanni liberè possiderunt , qui saepe muros illos egres● Romanos praelijs provocarun● : What say ye now of these testimonies ?

I thinke indeede that is a great testimonie for the antiquitie of your Church .

So you may : for this same cause Petrus Cluniacensis vocat Scotos Antiquiores Christianos , Cen●ur . ● . cap. 2. Ce●t . 3. cap. 3. calles Scottish men the more auncient Christians . You will make then no more contradiction , but that these testimonies which record the conuersion of Britaine , belong both to the South and North parts of the Isle ?

Your former argument brought out of Tertullian , and expounded by Baronius cleares that .

Yet if you please , heare what Origen sayes , Hom. 4. in Ezech. who liued in the yeare of CHRIST two hundreth and sixtie ; hee also witnesseth Britanniam in Christianam consentire religionem . To him we may adde Ierome , Ad Euagrium . in the yeare of our Lord foure hundreth and fiue : Gallia , Britannia , Africa , Persis , oriens I●dia , & omnes barbarae Nationes vnum Christum adorant , vnam obseruant regulam veritatis .

But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apostolus ?

Men may giue names as they please ; but hee and Servanus , Sedulius , Nimanus and many more came , but in the fiue hundreth yeare of our Lord , and may well haue beene waterers of our Church , but sure it is they were not the first planters of it .

It is likely indeed to be so .

But to returne . Vnder Diocletian in the three hundreth yeare , great persecution was made by that Tyrant in al Christian Churches , and among the rest the Church of South Britaine was also persecuted by his Deputies , for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots , who did louingly receiue them , and assigned to them the Isle of M●n , and erected there a Temple dedicated to Christ called otherwise Sodo●ēsis ecclesia , wherin they peaceably worshipped Christ Iesus ; and this our owne Chronicle witnesseth . After this in the dayes of Fethelmacus , which was about the ●ift yeare of the Emperour Constantius , there came into this Countrie one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Prouince in Graecia ; but the Countrie was conuerted also long before hee came : Therefore ●iergus● King of the Pictes gaue him his Palace hee had in Fy●●e , Holius . Pag. 87. where hee built the Church of Saint Andrew : desire you still to heare any more ?

Truely I am very glad to heare that we haue beene so ancient Christians ; and yet there remaines a doubt in my heart , that the Gospell came neuer hither but out of Rome .

Remember you not what I haue prooued ; seeing wee are but three yeares in Christianitie behinde Rome , thinke you in so small time they did so encrease , that they spread out their branches to the vttermost parts of the earth ? Yea , rather if you will reade the Storie , you shall finde that for three hundreth yeares ( wherein are many three yeares ) they were so vexed by the persecutors , that they could not get their owne Church stablished ; as after it was when God relented the persecution . But to come n●erer yet vnto you ; whether hee was an Apostle or an Apostolicke man , that first planted our Church , I will giue you two great reasons that wee haue our Faith from the Greeke or East Churches , not from the Latine or West Church .

Nowe that is the point , and I pray you once cleare it : for I thinke if you euince that , the Church of Rome in her best estate hath beene vnto vs a sister Church , but no mother church .

My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas , writing to Bernard , who affirmes that for seuen or eight hundred yeares after Christ , the Scottishmen did celebra●e the Passeouer all this time after the Grecian maner , not aster the Romane .

I vnderstand not that .

Then I will tell you it . Soone after the dayes of the Apostles , there happened a controuersie betweene the Churches of the East and West , about the celebration of the Passeouer : They of the East did obserue it the fourteenth day of the Moone , that same day wherein the Iewes kept their Passeouer : They againe of the West , thinking they would haue no communion with the Iewes , did celebrate it the next Sabboth after the fourteenth day . Polïcrates , with the orientall Bishops , alledged the authoritie of Iohn , Philip , Policarp , yea the prescript of the Euangell for their warrant . Victor , and the Bishops of the West alledged for their warrant , Saint Peter , Saint Paul : Such as were more moderate , misliked to see a Schisme in the Church for so small a matter : Irenaeus iudgeth , Obseruationes ill●s esse liber●s . Socrates , Ostendit nec Victorem , nec Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digladiandi : Nam nec Seruator ( inquit ) nec Apostoli 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : Seeing neither our Sauiour , nor his Apostles by any Law hath commanded the obseruation thereof .

Truely it was a lamentable thing , to see so sore a renting of the Church , for so small a cause .

It was indeede : and yet that in this controuersie , the Churches of Britaine obserued the manner of the Easterne Church , it is an argument they reuerenced the East Church for their mother , from whome the grace of the Gospell had come to them .

It is indeede likely : If these Churches had beene planted by Romish Doctors , they would haue also receiued the Romish ceremonies .

But there is yet an other Argument : Histor. Britan . lib. 8. cap. 4. Galsrid the Cardinall in his Storie of Britaine , which hee wrote in the seuen hundreth yeare , witnesseth that the Britans would not receiue Augustinus Iunior , Cent. 2. Cap. 2. the Legate of Gregorie the great , nor yet acknowledge any primacie of the Bishop of Rome ouer them : An euident argument they esteemed not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church . To cleare this you shall know that in the sixt hundreth yeare Gregorius magnus sent into England Augustinus Iunior , to perswade the Church there to receiue the Romish ceremonies , which to that day they had not knowne ; as Altars , Images , Vestiments ; Crosses , wherein albeit hee had not such speedie successe as hee would , yet at length did he obtaine it , and intended also to effect the like in the Church of Scotland , Cent. 6. li. 5. cap. 17. but was strongly resisted by Daganus , and Columbanus , Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere voluerunt . Againe in the seuen hundreth yeare a great schisme was in the church of Britaine : some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church , keeping still their ancient custome ; for the which they pretended the authoritie of Saint Iohn the Evangelist : Others againe embracing the Romish ceremonies ▪ which part waxed the stronger , in that King Osuvius inclined to them . Alway the matter was debated with so hot contention , that from words it came to wepons , and twelue hundreth Church-men were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies : this is all the good the Britaine Church got from the Popes Legate ; yet the euill rested not heere , for at length in the eight hundreth yeare , by th● perswasion of one Ecbertus , this part of the Isle was also induced to receiue the Romish Ceremonies , and thereafter their corrupt doctrine . And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtaine superioritie ouer vs ; and disgrace by his foolish inventions the glorie , and sinceritie of the Chur●h of Britaine . By all this discourse which truely I haue made vnto you , it may be evident how vainely and without a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacie ouer all Churches , and specially how far they wrong this Isle , when they will haue Rome caled a mother to the Churches here : which vnlesse you will adde one syllable cannot be admitted , for indeed she is a Stepmother , and in a word that Infamous Whoore of Babel , who as shee hath corrupted the Churches with her abhominable Superstitions , no maruell if shee hath at length infected vs also . That Rome is B●bel I will shew GOD willing in our next conference , where we shall yet more abundantly see Gods goodnesse towardes this Isle , that as we were among the last of them who were deceiued by her inchantments , so ( praised be God ) we are among the first of these , whom God by the light of the Gospell hath deliuered from her bondage : And the LORD more and more open your eyes to see the truth .

God grant me that grace . I will not denie you haue wakened thoughts in mee which at this time I cannot vtter : And now if you prooue Rome to bee Babel , I wil thinke my selfe happie that God hath sent mee this occasion , as to call mee out of it among others of his people . But to morrow , God willing , you will ( I hope ) keepe your promise .

If God lend mee life , and health , I will not faile .

THE THIRD DAYES CONFERENCE . Concerning the Apostacie of the Church of ROME , and how shee is now become that mother of Whoredomes . REVEL. C.

NOw ( Sir ) I am come againe to keepe my promise , & to proue vnto you that Babel in the Reuelation signifieth Rome .

I thinke that shall bee the most difficult labour you haue taken in hand hitherto .

Will you make mee this promise , to quit your communion with the Church of Rome , if I proue her to be the Whore of Babel , the mother of Whoredomes ?

I thinke it were good reason : for I see what euer that Babel may be , much euill is spoken of it , and all Gods people are commaunded to goe out of Babel , with certification , if they will not , they shall be partakers of her plagues .

Goe to then , we will first lay this for a ground , that Babel here is not to be taken literally , neither for Babel in Egypt called now Cayrus , nor yet for Babel in Caldie : but that figuratiuely it signifies some other thing besides any of them , and this is granted by your owne Doctors . Hoc primùm constet , Riber . in Apoc. 14. nomen Babylon●s hic non propriè , sed figura●è accipi : Cum dicit mysterium , mysticum esse indicat quod dicit , id est , arcanum quippiam latere in nomine Babylonïs , nec ita debere accipi vt sonat .

Let that passe , for I see in that generall you and they agree .

Wel then ; wee will come and see what is vnderstood by Babel : where if you will first heare how the Romish Doctors expound Babel , you shall see such confusion among them as declares them to bee the builders of Babel indeed , for one of them vnderstands not what the other saies .

How so ?

You shal see how so . The Divines of Rhemes say that Babel , and the Whoore of Babel signifies the vniversall companie of the wicked . Reuel . cap. 14.8 . what thinke you of that ?

Good ●ooth I cannot think it a solid Commentarie : for this Whoore of Babel is said to make all Nations drunken with the wine of her fornications , & it is a hard speech to say that the vniversall companie of the reproba●e hath corrupted al Nations .

You take it vp very wisely : And yet that they themselues speake this without any certaine knowledge it appeares by that , which they say Cap. 17. 18. these are their words : if this great Citie be meant of any one Citie , and not of the vniuersall companie of the reprobate &c. it is likely to be Olde Rome till the dayes of Constantine . And againe vpon the fift verse of that same Chapter they say : The first persecuting Emperours were but figures of Antichrist , and it may wel be that the great Antichrist shall sit in Rome also as his figures sate in Rome .

Say the Rhemists , that it may verie well bee that Antichrist shall sit in Rome ?

Yea forsooth , looke their owne words .

I haue no skill of that : I neuer heard but that he should be a Iew of the Tribe of Dan , and should sit in Ierusalem .

That is so vncertaine a fable that ( as you see ) themselues cannot leane to it , and their speech for vs is plaine enough , it may very well bee ( say they ) that Antichrist shall sit at Rome . But to proceed in our purpose , this exposition called Communis expositio , is reiected by their own companions . Viega . in Apoca. In hac multa sunt ad quae visio invita & repugnans trahitur , so sayes Viega in Apocal. 17.

I thinke they haue reason to say so : but after what manner doe they expound Babel ?

You shall heare . De Pont. Rom. lib. 2. cap. 2. Bellarmine not onely confesseth Babel is Rome , but proues it by the testimonie of ancient fathers . In Apo. 14. Ribera thus , Romae conueniunt aptissimè omnia quae de Babylone dicuntur hoc libro , atqueillud imprimis , quod alij conuenire non potest : Septem capita , septem sunt montes . Whatsoeuer in this book is spoken of Babel , agrees most properly to Rome , especially that which can agree to none other , the Seuen heads are seuen hils .

That is plaine talke : Indeed I haue heard much shifting about these hils , and one of themselues said to mee that these seuen hils signifie seauen deadly sinnes , all to this end to denie that this Prophecie points out Rome , but I neuer heard it confessed before so clearly .

You may well say it : for the Rhemists charge the Protestants with madnes for expounding the Seuen heads seuen hils ; they should impute madnesse to their owne fellowes , and not to vs , for they are forced to confesse that this Babel is Rome , and the Seuen heads seuen hils , wherein the whoore sits .

In truth I see they haue the weakest end of the string ; some of them denying Babel to be Rome ; some of them not only granting , but proouing it .

But because I will hide nothing from you , you shall heare what distinctions they vse : Bellarmine saith , by Babel is meant Ethnica Roma sub Imperatoribus , Ethnique Rome vnder Emperors . Viega againe he saies , In si●e cap. 18. Sermo non es● de antiquâ illâ Româ , sed de illâ quae s●orebit extremo mundi tempore , the speech is not of old Rome , but of Rome as it shall be in the last time of the World : yet hee standes not at this but comes ( as Ribera also doth ) and takes vp both the opinions . In Apocal. 14. Quicquid mali de Româ scribitur in hac Apocalypsi , vel ad tempus illud spectat , quo gentilibus Imperatoribu● seruiebat , vel Pontificem suum a se ei●cerit . Whatsoeuer euill is spoken of Rome in this Apocalyps pertaines either to that Rome which was subiect to Ethnique Emperours , or to that Rome which will make defection from the Bishop of Rome and cast him out of their Citie : for they grant that their Bishop will bee cast out of Rome , that Rome will bee vtterly ruinated , & yet say they euen then when there shall not bee such a thing as Rome , y●t their Pope shall be Bishop of Rome : what thinke you of this stuffe ? see you not how they reele ? some of them saye Rome was Babel , some of them say it will bee Babel ; none of them can denie that this Babel spoken of by Saint Iohn , the chiefe seat and Citie of Antichrist , is Rome .

I thinke it goes very hard with them , when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome , but it was Babel , or it will be Babel , that is , either Antichrist sate there , or will sett there .

I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe : for now I will improue their distinction , and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours , nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World , that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes .

Make that cleare and the cause is wonne .

Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours , but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes .

It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist , so sayes the Iesuite Viega ▪ Haec est quarta visio huius operis ; eaque illustrissima , & ad Antichristi tempora pertinens . So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera , a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda , & iota ad Antichristum , eiusque tempora pertinet . But the dayes of persecuting Emperours , were not the dayes of Antichrist : if they so say , they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist , and therefore this prophecie of Babel , is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours . Secondly , Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell , and was not married with Christ , and therefore cannot be this Whore , which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore : You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom , but such as haue beene married with Christ , none can bee Apostates from the faith , who neuer stoode in the faith , there must bee 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome , vnmarried with Christ . Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome , it must bee Rome once Christian , but now corrupted : once Apostolicke standing in the faith , now Apostati●ke fallen from the faith . Thirdly , this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations , and the filthines of her fornication● , wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth . By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands , Documenta erroribus plena : And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors , who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence , but must signifie Rome vnder Popes , which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles . Fourthly , this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth , which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore , corrupting the true worship of God , but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon oth●rs . Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies , leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased : They subdued the Iewes , and forced them to pay tribute ; but left them to their owne Religion : yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation , that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations , as is euident by their Pantheon , which they erected in the honour of all Gods . And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes . Carthus . Fiftly , the name of this Babel is mysterium , in quo aliud cernitur , aliud intelligitur : Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur , non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet , sed viris ius●is & prudentibus . So then by this Babel , some mysticall enemie is vnderstood , being indeede an enemie , but in shew pretending friendship : and therfore called afterward Gog , and not Magog , that is , not an open and plain enemy , as is the Turke : But Gog , a couered enemie : for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes , looking like a Lambe , but speaking like the Dragon . To this purpose sayes IEROME , In Daniel . 11. Simulabit se ducem faederis : And Hilarius , that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ , vnder a ●orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse . And Chrysostome , In Matth. Hom. 49. Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine , not by his titles , miracles , nor words of godlinesse . And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites : The Pope ( say they ) prayers humbly to God , and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei , therefore is not an aduersarie : for the Question is not what he calles hims●lfe , but what hee is . But to hold vpon this point , it is euident by what which I haue said , that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke , nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebell ( for both these are open enemies ) but Rome vnder Popes , a mysticall enemie . Sixthly , in this Reuelation , there are two women described ; the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne , which is CHRIST , hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland , ( the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles ) and vnder her feete the Moone , figuring this mutable world : This woman ( as themselues confesse ) represents the true Church . The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple , Scarlet , Gold , and precious stones , voide of inward beautie and chastitie , shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie , that shee may drawe many louers to her . Now ( I say ) seeing the first woman signifies the true Church ( as themselues confesse ) and afterward is called the L●mbes wife , why doe they not ●ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church ? And since they grant that Babel is Rome , what else can the whoore of Babel be , but the whoorish Church of Rome ? And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn , Babel is fallen , and become an habitation of di●els : Cap. 13. Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation , acc●rding to that of ●say , proph●cied of the first Babel , The ●im , and Z●m shall leape there . But Viega , Nobis etiam illud dicendum vi●etur cum Arethâ , Primasio , Ambrosio , Ansberto , Haimone , idololatriam eius vrbis significari , desecturamque , esse Romam a fide , atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia , & i●olotriae superstitionem , expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith , which hee sayes is a thing which will be , but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already , the foretold defection is come , Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered , God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him .

THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE . Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist . C.

GOod morrow ( Sir ) how doe you to day ?

The best I can .

It is most like you haue not rested well this night .

To say the truth ; Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse .

It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie .

I thinke so indeede , and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question : what is the cause , there being so many Wise and Learned men in the Popes Church , that they cannot see the truth , and follow it ?

Whether they see or see not I cannot tell you , but you know what the Apostle sayes . Brethren yee see your calling , 1. Cor. 1.26 not many wise , not many noble , nor mightie men after the flesh are called , but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of the World to confound ●he wise .

I knowe that is the Apostles saying ; but yet I cannot but maruell what should holde them backe from knowledge of the truth .

You shall cease to maruel if you con●●der one thing .

What is that ?

When Christ shewed himselfe to the World , how many of the Nobles , and Learned Rabbins , did know him ? Will you find any more among the Noble● but Ioseph of Ar●mathea ? Will you find any more among the Learned Pharisies but Nicodemus ?

Truly not that I remember ,

Was it then thinke you a good argument they vsed against Christ ? Doth any of the Rulers , or Scribes beleeue in Christ● , but only this cursed people who knowes not the Law ?

No indeed .

Bee not then moued with the like now . Oh , say the Papists , how many Learned men are of our Religion ? Euery man naturall , in things pertaining to eternall life is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , without a minde , Titus 3.3 till hee bee illuminate by grace : were he in naturall reason as quick as Aristotle , or in policie as Achitophel , he is but a starke foole till he bee taught of God : and therefore maruell no more that Learned Iesuites cannot know the truth , then when you heare that Learned Iewish Rabbins could not know Christ when he was among them .

The Lorde then make vs thankfull for reuealing the way of life vnto vs , which is hid from so many in the World .

Amen good Lord . And now for your further confirmation consider these testimonies I haue subioyned .

How the Fathers of the first ages point out Antichrist to come , and warne vs to looke for him at Rome .

Let no man seduce you by any meanes , for the day of the Lord shall not come vnlesse there come first a reuolt , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and the man of sinne bee reuealed , the sonne of perdition , which is an aduersarie , and extolled aboue all which is called God , or that is worshipped : so that he sitteth in the temple of God , shewing himselfe as if he were God 2. Thessal. 2.3 . Now the mysterie of iniquitie worketh , only he which now withholdeth will let it till he be taken out of the way .

What thinke you of this Prophecie .

I haue heard that to bee a falling away from the Roman Empire .

No ( Sir ) the most iudicious , both Ancient , and Recent , expound it to bee a falling from the faith : As for the Ancients see Augustine de Ciuitate Dei ●ib . 20. Cap. 19. Nulli dubium est eum de Antichristo ista dixisse For the Recents see Aquinas on this place .

But granting it were so , yet this Prophecie is of one single man and cannot be meant of the Popes of Rome .

No that is also a silly shift : when your Church-men say that the Pope is Christ Vicar , doe they meane any one single Pope ?

No , but the state or succession of Popes .

Very well , and when wee say that the Pope is Christ opposite , doe wee vnderstand this man , or that man ? no truly , but the whole state or regiment of them since their defection .

But I see not how this Prophecie either toucheth the Pope , or the Church of Rome ; and if it bee meant of any defection from the faith , it is meant of Luther , Caluine , and such as haue fallen from the Church of Rome .

Compare another Prophesie of the same Apostle concerning the s●me purpose , and see how he expounds himselfe .

Where is that ?

Here are his wordes 1. Timothie 4.1 . Now the Spirit speakes euidently , that in the last times some shall depart from the faith , attending to Spirits of errour , and Doctrine of Deuils : and marke how hee subioynes some particular points of their doctrine which shall come in with the Apostasie , to wit , that they shall forbid mariage , and command abstinence from meates , which God hath created to bee receiued with thankesegiuing . What thinke you now , whether doth this touch them or vs ?

I know it cannot concerne you , for you forbid none to marie that cannot containe .

Neither can this Prophesie bee cast backe vpon Heresies of the Marcionits , and others neerest the Apostles dayes , as the Iesuites doe to shift this Prophesie from themselues : for the Apostles saye , this Apostasie shall fall out in the la●t times : And the former Prophesie saies , that the Roman Empire must first bee taken out of the way , then shall the Apostasie worke to the height : as indeede it fell out that the seat of the Empire being translated to Constantinople , Chr●so●t●● 2. Thes. 2. hem . 4. the Emperour decreased , the Bishop of Rome more and more increased , so that it is not meant of Heretikes neerest the Apostles dayes , but of such as shall rise after the decay of the Roman Empire . And who tell mee hath growne by the ▪ decay of the Empire ? None but the Pope ; he hath his Imperial seat , his robes , his crowne , his rents , so that the Emperor , except the name & the double Eagle , hath littl● or nothing of the Empire . And therfore Aquinas , who saw what was the meaning of that place , moues the doubt : What shall wee answere ( saies he ) seeing the Roman Empire is decayed , how can we denie bu● Antichrist is come ? To this he answeres , we must say the Roman Empire is not away , only the Temporall power therof is changed into a Spiritual : what thinke you , is there not good stuffe here ?

In truth I thinke their cause the longer I heare you the weaker .

So may you . But yet more to confirme you consider how the Ancient expound this Prophesie , and still cast it vpon the Church of Rome . Irenaeus Lib. 5. speaking of the number of the beasts name six hundreth threescore and sixe , albeit hee plainly shew it is not his diuination , but the accomplishment of the Prophesie which must finde out the number of the name , and albeit he make mention also o● other names , as E●an , and Teitan , yet sayes hee sed & 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 valde verisimile est . Tertullian . contra Marcion . Babylon apud Ioannem Romanae vrbis figura est , proinde magnae , regno superbae & sanctorum Dei debellatricis . Tertullian . de resurrectione carnis , see how hee expounds that part of the Prophesie , Only he who now withholds , let till hee be taken out of the way . Donec de medio fiat quis nisi Romanus status ? c●ius abscisio in decem reges Anti-christum superinducet , & tunc revelabitur iniquus &c. Ambrose in 2. Thessal . 2. Non prius veniet dominus quam regni Romani defectio fiat , & appareat Antichristus qui interficiet sanctos reddita Romanis libertate sub suo tamen nomine . Et iterum . Post defectum Romani imperij appariturus est Antichristus . Cyril Cateches. 15. Veniet Antichristus quum impleta fuerint tempora Romani imperij . Hilarius contra Auxentium : Anne dubium est in eis esse futurum , Is there any doubt , but Antichrist shall sit in these same temples , and houses , which now ye loue and honour : Item , Sub specie Euangelicae praedicationis Christo contrarius erit , ibid. This proues , that in the iudgement of Hilarius , Antichrist should bee a professor , yea , euen a Preacher of the truth : Primasius in Apocal. cap. 16. Tunc cadet Babylon , quando nouissimè potestatem persequendi sanctos acceperit ; Here also it is cleare that he meanes not old Rome . Do not these places make cleare , that the Apostasie here prophesied should come af●er the decay of the Romane Empire ? and since themselues can not deny but the temporal Empire is decayed , how then can they deny the Apostasie ?

I thinke iudeede these places make it cleare : specially that which Ambrose hath wherein I marke these thinges . That first the Empire should decaie and then Antichrist should appeare , and he should restore libertie to the Romans , but vnder his owne name , and not vnder the Emperours name .

You haue marked that very wel : for the Pope hath made the name of Romanes more famous then the Emperours did , and vnder colour of a spirituall Empire , hath made all churche subiect vnto the Church of Rome , and from his name to bee named Papists . Hieron in Daniel , 11. Antichristus simulabit se ducem foe deris , hoc est , ●egis , & Testamenti Dei. And albeit the Prophesie of Antichrist was not so cleare to him , & others of these fathers also , as time hath made it to this age ; yet expounding these words of the Apostle ; He sits in the Temple of God , he saith , this is , Hierosolymis ( vt quidam putant ) vel in Ecclesiâ vt veriùs arbitramur . quaest. 11. ad Aglasiam . August . de Ciuit. Dei , lib. 20. cap. 19. Rectiûs putant alij dictum latinè , sicutest in Graeco : S●debit in Templum Dei , quasi ipse cum suis esset Ecclesia Dei. Theophilactus , Haymo , Lombardus , are of the same mind . The Iesuites of Rhemes hauing shewed how many fathers expound this Temple of Ierusalems Temple , at length distrusting it as a vaine opinion , they set downe this second as more true : That Antichrist , if euer he were of , or in the Church , shall be an Apostata , or runnegate out of the Church , and shall vsurpe vpon it by tyranny , and by challenging worship , religion , and gouernment thereof : so that he himselfe sh●ll bee adored in all the Churches of the world ; this is to sit in the Temple of God ; if any Pope euer ●id so , or sh●ll do , then let the Ad●ersaries call him Antichrist . But indeede this their confession whereby they would cleare their Pope , doth plaine soile him : hee sits in the Church by profession , but is gone out of it by Apostasie , and yet vsurpes gouernment ouer it by tiranny ; in euery Church he is adored as a God on ear●h , hauing power ouer the conscience , excommunicating all such from humane societie , as will not be subiect to him . What thinke you of that talke to giue to the Pope ? Tu es alter Deus in terris .

Who said that ?

It was said to him in the second L●●erane Councell , by Christopher Marcellus .

Good sooth it was shame to the flatterer , and a blame to the Pope if he blusht not when he heard it .

Oh , but that is not the worst ; his Canonists stile him their Lord God the Pope .

Fie vpon that ; will they commit such blasphemie ?

There are their owne words : Dic●re Dominum Deum nostrum Papam non pot●isse s●atuere , Extrau . Ioh. 22. cap. Cum inter &c. prout statuit , haereticum est . To say , that our Lord God the Pope might haue discerned otherwise , then he hath discerned is hereticall . And againe , that they make a God of him , these places may let you see : Si Papa suae , Dist. 40. cap. Si Papae , &c. & sraternae salutis negligens innumerabiles secum ducat cater●atim in Gehennam , huiusmodi culpam nullus mortalium praesum●t redarguere . And againe , Est instar sacrilegij disputare de factis Papae , It is sacriledge to dispute vpon any of the Popes deedes . Dist. ●0 . ca. Non nos in glosa , &c. Or otherwise it is to be said , Quod facta Papae excusantur vt homicidium Sampsonis , furta Hebraeorum , & adulterium Iacobi : That the euill deedes of the Pope are to be excused , as the selfe-murther of Sampson , the theft of the Hebrewes , the adulterie of Iacob . Is not this to make the Pope a lawlesse man ?

I think no lesse then you say .

But what say you to this ? Causa 25. quast . ● . ca. Ideo , &c. Canonibus sacris authoritatem it a praestat vt se illis non subijciat : Hee in such sort giues authority to holy Scriptures , that hee is not subiect to it . And that as Christ did some things against the Law ( as when hee touched the Leper ) so the Pope may do some things against the Lawe . Summa Angelica de casibus Con. scientiae . D●●it Papa . And albeit we reade that Ba●a●m was rebuked of his owne Ass● , by the which Asse our subiects , by Balaam our Prelates are signified . yet ought not that to be an example to our Subiects to reproue vs .

Indeed I thinke it a meete comparison for him : Let him bee Balaam , and let such as hee rides vpon be Asses , as to mee I thanke God I am quit of him .

Alway by these , and innumerable more testimonies it is euident , that hee is the lawlesse man that exaltes himself aboue all that is called God , and that his blinded captiues worshippe him as God . But wee will proceede to the rest of the testimonies . Greg. lib. 9. Epist. 30. Fiden●èr dico quòd quisquis se vniuersalem vocat sacerdotem , aut vocari de●iderat in elatione suâ , Antichristum praecurrit . What think you , doth not Gregorie heere blacke the faces of his successors with a visible note of Anti-christ ? Who , but they are so called ?

They will say he speakes that of Iohn Bishop of Constantinople , who at that time vsurped this stile .

Yea , Dis● . 99. ca. Ecce , &c. but when Eulogius Patriarch of Alexandria , gaue that same stile to Gregorie Bishop of Rome ; hee did sharpely reprooue him for it . Recedant verba quae vanitatem instant , & charita●em vulnerant . But hee hath yet a clearer place : Rex superbiae propè est , & quod dici nesas est , sacerdotum et exercitus praeparatur , li. 4. Epist. 38. Sybilla sayes this King shal be 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Oraculorum ●ap. 8. that is White-headed , and shall be called by a name much like Pontus : Or otherwise 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , hauing many Heades or many Crownes : Here hee hath one marke from his head , an other from his name : both of these agree to the Bishoppe of Rome , who weareth solemnely on his head a white Myter of Siluer adorned with three Crownes and precious stones , Ibid. and in Latine is named Pontifex . And againe shee sayes , that the greatest terrour and furie of his Empire ; and the greatest woe that he shall worke , shall bee by the bankes of Tyber .

How the fathers of the last ages declare that Antichrist is come , and point him out sitting at ROME .

The ninth hundred yeare , Thetgandus Episcopus Treuirensis Pontificem Romanum Antichristum , & lupum vocat , & Romam Babylonem : Cùm sis seruus seruorum , dominus dominantium esse contendis , libidine dominandi in praeceps ●bis , quicquid tibilibet , licet , fucusque , factus es Christianis . There hee calles the Bishop of Rome Antichrist , a Wolfe , a vsurper of domination , a deceiuer of Christ●ndome , and Rome he calles Babylon : And the like at that same time was testified by Guntherus Episcopus Coloniensis ad Nicolaum Pontificem Romanum . Tu pontificis personam praete fers , at tyrannum agitas , sub cultu pastoris lupu● sentimus , titulus parentem mentitur , tu te factis Iouem esse ostentas ; quum sis seruus seruorum , dominus dominantium esse contendis . Epist. 3. Bernard saith , Bestia illa in Apocalypsi , cui datum est osloquens blasphemias , & bellum gerens cum sanctis , Petri cathedram occupat , tanquam leo paratus ad praedam . The beast spoken of in the Reuelation , hauing a mouth speaking blasphemies , and which Warres against the Saints , is now gotten into Peters Chaire , as a Lion prepared for his prey : What thinke yee of these words ?

What should I thinke ? for my owne part I maruaile that the Pope did not burne Bernard for an hereticke .

So you may : But heare yet mo●e . Io●chimus Abbas , who liued three hundred yeres since , saith Antichristus iamdudum natus est Romae , & altiùs extolletur in sede Apostolicá . Antichrist long since is borne in Rome , and shall bee aduanced yet higher in the Apostolicke seate . Franciscus Petrarcha Archdecon of Parma , who liued in the thousand three hundreth and fiftie yeare , Epist. 5.14 , 17 , 18 , 19 , &c. Compares the Pope to Iudas , who betrayed Christ with a kisse , his Clergie to the I●wes , who said to him , Aue Rex Iudaeorum : His Prelates to the Phari●ies , ●ho in mockerie clothed him with Pu●ple , and after crucified him . And againe , Denie it now if thou canst ? That thou art shee whom S. Iohn saw in the spirit sitting vpon many waters ; Thou art shee and none other , that Babylon the mother of the whoredomes of the earth , drunken with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus ; thou art shee which hast made all Kings of the earth drunken with the Cups of thy poyson . In the thousand and three hundreth yeare , lib. 2. cap. 5 . In Synodo Reginoburgensi habita est haec oratio ● quodam Episcopo contra pontificem Romanum . Sub Pontificis maximi titulo , pastoris pelle , lupum sae●is●mum ( nisi caeci simus ) sentimus : Romani slamines arma in omnes habent Christianos , audendo , fallendo , & bella ex bellis serendo : magni facti oues trucidant , occidunt pacem , concord●am terris depellunt , intestina bella , domesticas seditiones ab inferis eliciunt , indiès magis ac magis omnium vires debilitant , vt omnium capitibus insultent , omnes deuorent , vniuersos in seruitutem redigant , &c. Ingentia loquitur , quasi verò Deus esset : noua consilia sub pectore volutat , vt nouum sibi constituat imperium , leges commutat , suas sancit : contamin●t , diripit , spoliat , fraudat , occidit perditus ille homo , quem Antichristum vocare solent , in cuius fronte co●tumeliae nomen scriptum est : Deus sum , errare non possum : in templo Dei sedet ; longè , lateque , dominatur . In the thousand and foure hundreth yeare , lib. 1. cap. 4. Iohannes vicesimus tertius , wrote vnto the Oriental Church an Epistle , declaring that there was but one Christian Church onely , and that hee was head thereof , and the Vicar of Christ : The Grecians wrote backe to him this answere . Potentiam tuam summam erga sub●itos tuos firmiter credimus , superbiam tuam summam tolerare non possumus , auaritiam expl●re non valemus : Diabolus tecum quia Dominus nobiscum . Thy great power ouer thy Subiects we firmly beleeue , thy surpassing pride we can not tolerate , thy auarice wee are not able to satisfie : the diuell is with thee , for the Lord is with vs .

God be mercifull to vs .

Amen . Now ( Sir ) I must craue your licence , for some friends are attending mee , with whome I appointed to meete this houre .

Good reason , but before you goe , I would fain he are an answer to two questions , which commonly they demand .

Which are those ?

The one is : Where was your Church before Luther ? the other : Are all our fathers damned ?

With a very good will . But if you please , deferre the conference concerning them till to morrow .

Let it be so , now the Lord bee with you .

THE FIFTH DAYES CONFERENCE . Wherein the common question of the Aduersaries is aunswered : Where was your Church before LVTHER ? C.

NOw ( Sir ) you remember you propounded two questions to me yesternight .

It is very true , and I would gladly heare your answere to them , for ▪ my further resolution : What thinke you then , because you call Papistrie heresie , are you of that minde that all our fathers are damned , & that no Papist can be saued ?

I am not to iudge of mens persons : many are called Papists who know not what Papistrie meanes , and many liue Papists who dare not die Papists , or if so they doe , they know not what they doe . But Papistrie it selfe , I affirme it is a pernicious doctrine , yea as the Apostle cals it , a doctrine of diuels , killing the Soules of them who beleeue it : But this is the second of your questions , which we will reserue till the next day .

Let it be so . What then say you to the first ? Where was your Church before Luther ?

Euen where our doctrine was , sometime in one Countrie , sometime in an other , as it pleased God in his wise dispensati●n , who caries the light of his Gospell , as he doth the Sunne , ●hrough the World , to illuminate Nations at s●uerall times therewith according to his will .

That is a faire Generall ; but will yee tell vs , who were these ? What Countrie people ? What Doctors , who taught as yee teach ?

Looke the Churches of Asia , Asricke , and of Europe , consider them as they were before the mysterie of iniquitie came to the hight , and you shal see that they all had the same doctrine , and forme of a Church that we haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion .

But you are not able to name one before Luther , teaching in all things as he did .

This is a peece of Sophistrie , whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant .

How so , should not the teachers of the truth agree in al things in one harmonie ?

I grant they should , and thanks be to God , they doe also in al substantial things which are Articles of our faith . But is this a good reason : because some Doctors in some opinions differ , whereof men may bee ignorant and saued neuerthelesse , that therefore these Doctors teach no truth , and their Churches are no true Churches ?

That seemes to bee hard indeed .

You haue reason for you so to thinke : for in one age Vi●tor with the Church in the West was in a different opinion from Policrates , and the Churches of the East ; and Ierome had his owne discordance with Augustine , against the exposition of the commandement , Thou shalt beare no false witnesse , in that question de mendacio : and the first Fathers of the Primitiue Church were Chiliasts ; shall it thereupon follow , that because in this point , they taught not in all things as we doe , that therefore they were not a Church ?

It is no reason .

Cyprian in the point of rebaptising , taught not as Cornelius ; what of that ? will it follow that hee was not a faithfull Pastor , or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church ?

It followes not indeed .

Why then doe you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Caluin , who in all points taught as we teach . The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent , are men subiect to infirmities ; for no man vpon earth , hath his vnderstanding perfect , whereof it comes to passe , that in some things one of them differs from an other : But as to the Articles of the faith , and substance of Christian religion , whereby comes saluation ; sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian , Ambrose , A●gustine , Luther and Caluin haue all deliuered o●e doctrine , and did teach the way of God truly .

The● you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion .

I think s● indeed , & hope to die in that same faith where●● they liued and died .

It would bee thought strange to heare that in Italie , that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion .

No maruell it be strange there , where Truth is a stranger : but this answere was giuen you and them both , by a worthy Doctor of our Church and wee yet stand to it : Patres in maximis sunt nostri , in multis varij , ●n minimis vestri . Such Fathers as haue written before vs , and you both in greatest things are ours , in many thinges are doubtfull , in smallest thinges they are yours .

Well , I shall remember that ( God willing ) : but in the dayes of Papistrie , wherewith you say the world was blinded , where was your Church ?

Answere me but an other question , and it shall resolue you .

What is that ?

Your Doctors say , that when Antichrist shall come , the Church shall ●lie to the desert , that is , as themselues expound it : The Church shall bee without publike state of regiment , Rhemists . Reuel. 12. and open free exercise of holy functions , neither shall it bee unknowne to the faithfull which follow it ; as this day may bee seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholiques in many parts of England .

What doth that helpe you ?

Very much : that which they themselues say , will bee done , wee say is done : Antichrist hath alreadie chased the Church to the wildernesse , and so oppressed it , that for a time it had no publike state of regiment , nor open free exercise of holy functions : yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it , nor to the enemies that persecuted it , as this day may bee seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France .

Will ye make that cleare , and I thinke you haue wonne much .

What greater clearenesse can you craue ? If this answere bee good to cleare the Popes Church , when they say it will bee obs●ured by Antichrist , and yet be : is it not as good to iustifie our Church , when we say it hath beene obscured by Antichrist , and yet was ?

The answere is good enough , only if you can , I would haue you qualifie it more particularl● .

There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day , wherein I can not point forth men , preaching and professing as wee doe : but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry , I will let you see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs , where our Church then was ? for they found vs alwaies in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin was borne .

Make that good .

Reme●us a Popish Inquisitor , R●● . cap. 27. who liued more then three hundred yeeres agoe , speaking of the poore men of Lyons , and calling them in contempt Valdenses , Leonistae , sayth they were more pernitious to the Church of Rome , then all other sects fo● three causes : First , because it hath beene of longer continuance : for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times . The second cause is , because it is more generall : for there is almost no land in the which this Sect doth not creepe . The third cause , for that all other sectes doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God ; but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse , because they liue iustly before men , and beleeue all thinges well concerning God , and all the Articles which are contained in the Creede , onely they blaspheme & hate the Church of Rome . Now there is the testimony of an enemy making answer for vs , which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more , Where was your Church before Luther ?

I , but hee calles them a Sect , and saies they blasphemed the Church .

So the Priests of the Iews called the Church of Christians , a Sect of Nazarits , Act. 24.5 . What is that to the matter ? yet he grants they are such a Sect , as first , had beene from the beginning : secondly , had beene in all Countries , & thirdly , was honest in lise , & sound in faith : saue onely that they helde the Church of Rome to be the whore of Ba●el . And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may bee further remoued out of your mind ; I pray you consider this : Think you not , that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them , who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach ? if our doctrine was in former ages , you will not deny that our Church was then also .

That can not bee denied .

Well then , if you please , name mee any controuersie of religion , concerning any Article of faith ▪ betweene vs and the Papists thi● day , and you shall see that the ancient fathers take our part in it .

That is strange , for they repose their chiefest strength & trust in the ancient fathers .

Bragge what they will it is true , I say they may well boast in the drosse of fathers & decke their errors with it , but wee shall bring you their finest gold . Name you the controuersie , & you shall trie that which I say to bee a truth .

There are so many controuersies among you , that I know not which of them to name first .

Then will it please you to take a view of these , which I haue gathered for my own priuate vse ?

With a very good will : let me see what they are .

They are here in a little s●role , and I haue collected them for my owne confirmation in the faith ; for , as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures , so finding that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church exponed the Scripturs , conformable to the doctrine of our teachers , I was greatly therin confirmed : for these are the two great proppes of our faith , which Vincentius giues vs against all heresie , cap. ▪ 2.

You haue reason for you ▪ for if your Doctrine be so warranted both by diuine authority of God in his word , and humane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church , they are to bee iudged most vnworthy that make contradiction to you .

Well , that I may bee as good as my word , there they are , I leaue them with you , that you may reade them at your owne leasure .

I thanke you for them , and because I am not to tarrie in this Towne , let met haue ( I pray you ) a copie of them with mee , that I may reade them at leasure .

So long as you are in the Towne you may bee doing , otherwise , if occasion serue you not , as soone as I can prouide a copy of them for my self , I shall send you this to any place you please to appoint .

Let it bee so , and I shall God willing put you in mind of it .

THE SIXTH DAYES CONFERENCE . Wherein an other Question commonly obiected by the Aduersaries is answered : Seeing you cannot denie that your fathers were Papists , what thinke you , are they all damned or not ? And if they be not damned , why may not we be of their Religion . R.

WElcome yet ( Sir ) I see you are not wearie , to take paines with me .

No in truth , it is no paine but pleasure vnto me , if by any meanes I may be an instrument to doe you good .

I thanke you for it : Now what say you to our Question , Are all our fathers damned ? Or ●f not , may it not serue vs to be ●f their Religion ?

That is but a subtile que●tion wher●by Iesuites drawe ●imple people to a liking of Papistrie ; because forso●t● some ●f their f●thers liued , and dyed in it as they alledge .

And why , thinke you it not a good reason ?

Not indeede ● for some times I find GOD forbids his people to be as their fathers were : Z●ch 1. where our Fath●rs haue forsaken the Religion of the f●rst Fathers wee should not follow them .

That was sufficiently cleared in our first Conference .

It was so , yet you force mee to remember it . But now before I come to the point : I will tell you a prettie Storie I haue read concerning this matter .

Let mee heare it I pray you .

I read that a certaine Duke of Frisland named Raboldus , about the yeare of our LORD nine hundreth , being perswaded ( as hee pretended ) to embrace Christianitie , as he went to bee baptized and had the one of his feet in the water , he demanded of the Bishops If all his Forefathers were damned ? the Bishops answered more rashly then wisely , they were all damned : whereupon the Duke pulled backe his feete againe , saying , Then I will also bee damned with them . Thinke you this a good answere ?

No indeede I thinke it a mad answere .

Yet the same is the poyson wherewith your Iesuits subtilly infect the hearts of simple ones , that they should rather choose to be damned with their Fathers th●n saued without them .

But will you say to vs as these Bishops said to him , That all our Fathers are damned ?

Nay that wil I not ; iudgement of election and reprobation pertaines to the Lord , their persons I leaue : but the doctrine of Papistrie I am sure is deadly , and bringes damnation to the soules of men .

Then you will not giue iudgment of their persons .

No indeed : for , as to their persons ▪ I know many this day are so called , who know not the Doctrine of Papistrie ; and , as to them who haue liued before vs , howsoeuer in their life they professed Papistrie , yet in their death they were forced to seeke comfort in our Religion .

That is strange that you will say many of our Fathers died in your Religion .

Yet it is true , as I will let you see by a little forme of visitation of the sicke , vsed at that time when Antichrists darkenesse was greatest , to wit , in the eleuenth hundred yeare , for so the Church-men spake to the sicke : Fateris te ●am malè vixisse vt meritis tuis pae●● aeterna ●ebe●tur ? Doest thou not acknowledge that thine euill life d●serues eternall d●ath ? The diseased answered , E●iam , ye● : The other ▪ still inquired , Paenitet ●e horum ? Repentest thou th●se sinnes ? The other answered Etiam , yea I doe : still he inquire● , Credis quò● pro te mortu ●s ●●t dominus Iesus ? Beleeuest thou that Iesus died for thee , and that thou canst not bee saued but by his death ? The other answeres , I doe so indeede . Then concludes the Preacher this way : Age ergò , dum in te superest anima , in h●c solâ mortetotam fuluciam tuam constitue , in nullâ aliâ re habe as fiduciam , huic mortito●um te committe , hac solate totum contegne , hâc morte tetotum inuolue . Et si dominus deus voluerit te iudicare , dic , Domine mortem domini nostri obijcio inter me & tuum iudicium , aliter tecum non contendo . Goe to then , so long as thy Soule is in thee , in this onely death of Christ place thou thine whole confidence , tr●st not in any other thing , commit thy selfe altogether vnto this death , with this death only couer thy selfe , in it onely inuolue thy selfe : And if the Lord God will iudge thee , then say to him , O Lord , I haue nothing to lay betw●ene me and thy iudgement , but the death of the Lord Iesus , otherwise I contend not with thee . See you not here first , that they warned their people to prouide for themselues so long as they are in the body , and feede them not with a vaine hope , as the Romish Doctors doe their people : For the present they send them to a place they call Purgatorie , but promise to bring them againe out of it ; they first suffering paines there , and either themselues , or their frinds making due payment for them on Earth .

In good sooth that is a comfortlesse , and ( I may say ) a cousning kind of doctrine .

Wel , see you not againe a renouncing of all other merites ; and of all satisfactions to bee made by suffering the paines of Purgatorie or otherwise . And thirdly see you not that the Pastor teacheth , and the people professeth a sure confidence , & no dubitation , in Christs bloud onely .

I see that clearely .

Then I say these men might well die w●th the name of Papist● , but they died not with the doctrine of Papists : for they renounced all me●ites , both their own , and any others , and onely rested vpon the meri●es of Christ .

But what will you say of them who haue died with all the opinions of Papistrie ?

I will answere that as Cyprian answered the like when it was demanded of him . An damnat● sunt maiores nostri , qui hun● vel illum articulum non intellexerunt ? Were all our Fathers damned who vnderstood not this , or that Article of faith ? he answered , Potens est Dominus misericordiâ suá indulgentiam dare , non tamen q●ia semel erratum est , ideo semper errandum est . God is able of his great mercy to giue indulgence , but yet there is no reason , that wee should alway●s ●rr● , because they once did erre .

In truth that is a very modest answere .

But heare you what further he saith : Si quis ex Antecessoribus nostris , vel ignoranter , vel simpliciter non hoc obseruanit , & tenuit quod nos Dominus exemplo suo docuit , potest simplicitatieius de indulgentiâ Domini venia concedi ; nobis vero non poterit ignosci , quia à Domino admoniti & instructi sumus ; If any of our forefathers , either of ignorance , or simplicity hath not holden and obserued that which the Lord hath taught vs , to doe by his example , there may bee mercie granted to his simplicity out of Gods indulgence : but we cannot be forgiuen , who now are otherwise instructed & admonished by the Lord .

That answer I see is more sharp , and yet most reasonable ; many things are excusable in the night , that are not tolerable in the day : The seruant that knows his M●sters will , and do●h it not , is worthy of double stripes .

And I am glad you see it , and I would many more had their eyes open to see it , who thinke Papistry now tolerable in the dayes of light , as it was in the dayes of darkenesse : it was a fault then , for euen the seruant who knowes not his Masters will shall be stricken ; but it is a double fault now , for hee , who knowes his Masters will , and does the contrary , shall haue double s●ripes .

Then I see you will not giue out , iudgement vpon the persons of Papists , whether they bee saued or damned .

Indeed I will not , and that for two causes : first , because , ( as I haue said ) many are Papists by name , which are no Papists : some of ignorance , some of vaine glory , some of policy to get themselues the more credite . And as to these who are infected indeed with the heresies of Papistrie ; yet is it vncertain if they shall so continue , for the Lord is ma●uellous in working with such as belong to his election , that howsoeuer for the pr●sent wee see them in sinne and ignorance , ye● know wee not what they will be ● so many secret wayes ●●th the Lord in time of sickn●sse , yea , in the very howre of d●ath to draw the h●arts of m●n toward● himselfe , which are hid from vs , that it w●re but presumption to iudge of an other mans saluation or reprobation .

Indeed I commend you , for I thinke you speak with that sobriety which becom● a christian .

And yet whatsoeuer I haue said concerning the persons of Papists , there is further to bee saide of Papistrie it selfe : that it is a doctrine so full of heresies , so directly contrary to the doctrine of the Gospell , that I dare say , a man beleeuing all the points of Papistrie , and perseuering in them ●o the end without repentance cannot bee saued .

Now that is the point , & I pray you make it cleare .

It is cleare by these places following , which will shew you that Papistrie is a doctrine of Diuels , a plague of God , and a iust punishment laied on reprobate men for their sinnes , and a forerunner of the wrath to come .

Good sooth I quake to heare this .

You shall see them al particularly qualified : and first there is a Prophesie made by the Apostle of the defection which was to come , in these words ; Now the spirite speakes euidently , that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith , giuing heed to the spirites of error & doctrine of Diuels : which speake lies in hipocrisie , hauing their conscience burned with an hote yron , forbidding to marrie , and commanding to abstaine from meates , &c. Perceiue you not here , that the doctrine which forbids mariage and commands abstinence from meates , is called a doctrine of diuels ?

Very well , but that is meant of heretikes , which were soone after the Apostles daies , as Ebio●its , Marcionits , &c.

Nay , that is a sillie shift , for he saieth , these teachers shal come in the latter times ; and the departure from the faith , wherof hee prophesieth , was not to come till the fall of the Roman Empire : but in the daies of Ebion , Marcion , &c. the Roman Empire was in great glorie .

But if that bee meant of any Apostasie in the later times it is of your sect ( will they say ) that hath fallen from the church of Rome .

It cannot be meant of vs : for wee neithe● forbid mariage , nor command abstinence from meates for conscience sake .

That is verie true : but may not the Church for some causes command abstinencie from meats ?

Yes , for Prayer and deuotion , and that for a time onely , but not because any meate is vncleane , or one meat is holier then an other ▪ as they thinke their Chartrouse Monkes more holy that neuer eate flesh , then others are : Durand . lib. 6. cap. de alijs ieiu●ijs . and why forsooth ? because flesh and not fish was accursed in the daies of Noah .

Indeed that seemes to be somewhat superstitious .

Well , I will enter into no more particulars concerning this question . It is cleare , these are two points of Papisticall doctrine , called by the Apostle doctrine of Diuels ; So I proceede , There shall arise false Christs , and false Prophets , and shall shew great signes and wonders , so that if it were possible they should deceiue the very elect , Mat. 24.24 . The comming of Antichrist by the working of Satan with all power , and signes , and lying wonders , 2. Thess. 2.9 . And in a●● deceiuablenesse of vnrighteousnes among them that perish , because they receiued not the truth ●hat they might bee saued , ibid. ver. 10. And therefore God shall send them strong delusions , that they should belieue lies , verse 11. That all they might be damned , which belieued not the truth , but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse , ver. 12. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship the beast , whose names are not written in the Book● of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning . Reuel . 13.8 . And he deceiued them which dwelt on earth by the signes which were permitted him to doe , ver. 14. If any man worshippe the beast , &c. the same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God , and shall bee tormented in fire and brimstone . Reu. 14.9.10 . Goe out of Babel my people , that yee bee not partakers of her sinnes , and receiue not of her plagues . These places make cleare vnto you , that it is onelie the reprobate , worldly-minded called therefore dwellers on the earth , whose names are not written in the book of life , children of perdition ; it is only they ( I say ) who are fullie and finally deceiued with the spirit of Antichrist , and that in Gods righteous iudgement are giuen ouer to belieue lies , because they receiued not the loue of the truth : What thinke yee of these ?

In truth I am astonished to heare these fearefull places .

This is yet further cleared by Augustine , who expounding that place of the Apostle 2. Thes. 2. Adoccultu●● Dei iudicium pertinet quòd impij ab Antichristo feducuntur : It pertaines to Gods secret iudgement that the wicked are seduced by Antichrist : Seducentur qui seduci merebuntur , pro eo quòd dilectionem veritatis non receperunt . They shall bee deceiued who haue deserued to bee deceiued , because they receiue not the loue of the truth : and yet more feareful is the sentence , which he subioynes , Iudicati seducentur , & seducti iudicabuntur : when they are iudged they shall be deceiued , and because they were deceiued they shal be iudged ouer againe : they are first iudged by the iudgement of God , secretly iust , and iustly secret , whereby now hee punisheth the sinnes of men , deliuering them to the Spirit of errour , that receiued not the loue of his truth : and because they were deceiued they shall be iudged againe in that last and manifest iudgment to bee made by Christ Iesus , who was vniustly iudge himselfe , but most iustly shall iudge the World . This Commentarie makes it cleare , that Papistrie is not onely a sinne , but a present punishment of God inflicted on man for sinne , specially for contempt of the Gospell ; and a procurement of that fearefull wrath that is to come , which if it were considered , men would not esteeme Papistrie so indifferent a thing as they doe ▪

God be mercifull to them who yet are blinded with these errours , and Lord make mee thankefull who hath begunne to deliuer mee from that darkenesse ; the Lord illuminate mee more and more with his light , that I may know his way , and may receiue grace to follow it .

Amen : But now I remember , I promised before to declare vnto you , that Papistrie impugnes both the Person and offices of Christ , and so in effect denies that Iesus the Sonne of Marie is the Christ .

That is most strange .

It is indeede , and yet it is true , as you shal● perceiue if you goe through the principall Articles of our faith . And first to begin at Christ person , that of many wee may touch a few , We beleeue that Iesus Christ is both God and man .

And who denies that ?

You know that old Arriu● denied his Diuinitie , and now Papistes denie his humanitie .

How can you say that ?

Because they worshippe and adore a Christ , who is not come in the flesh : To cleare this , I pray you consider that Canon of the Apostles , 1. Ioh. 4. Beloved , beleeue not euery spirit , but trie the spirits if they be of God : because many false Prophets are gone out into the World . In this the spirit of God is knowne ; Euerie spirit that confesseth Iesus Christ to haue come in the flesh is of God . There is a golden rule for vs and them both , and marke there the opposition , Euerie spirit that saith otherwise , is the spirit of Antichrist .

Let it be so : What is that against Papists ?

Yea , it is against them directly , for the word teacheth vs to worship Christ , Conceiued of the holy Ghost , horne of the Virgine Marie : But they worshippe Christ created by a Priest , not conceiued by the holy Ghost ; a Christ whose fleshe is made of Breade by Transubstantiation , whereby they destroy the Article of his Incarnation .

But they say it is the same Christ who was borne of the Virgin Marie .

If it bee the same Christ , then must they grant that his flesh is not created of bread : for that Christ borne of the Virgin Marie was made flesh of the seed of Dauid by the operation of the Holy Ghost , but this Christ whom they worship in the Masse hath his flesh made of bread by Transubstantiation , and they are not ashamed to call their Priest for this worke Creatorem sui Creatoris , a Creatour of his Creatour .

But saith not our Lord that the Bread giuen in the Sacrament is his Bodie ?

Yea indeede , and so wee beleeue it is : for it is no naked nor common bread that hoe giues vs there the giuing of that bread , It is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the Communion of his blessed bodie .

But if it bee Bread , how can it be his body ?

It is needlesse to demaund how ? Since he hath said it ; but I beleeue it is his body .

But may not Christ of his omnipotent power transubstantiate bread into his body ?

And I pray you , may not Christ of his omnipotent power , and truth , giue mee his body , except hee turne bread into his bodie ?

I dare not say so .

And you haue reason : The Papists charge vs that wee denie Gods omnipotencie , but the fault is theirs ; they denie his omnipotencie , when they say hee can not giue vs his body in the Sacrament , except hee make his body of bread . Doe they not here limit the Lord ?

Well I see it is great wisedome to ponder euery thing we beleeue in the ballance of Gods word , I wold not haue thought there had beene suc●●lasphemie against the person of Christ in that Doctrin of Transubstantiation as now I see that Canon of the Apostle declares plainly .

You may ioyne to this another testimonie of the Apostle Hebrewes 13. Iesus Christ yesterday , this day , and the same for euer .

What will that make against them ?

That they are blinde to worship a Christ this daie , who was not a Christ yesterday : for you know they grant themselues that before consecration the bread is not Christ .

It is true indeed .

Then you may perceiue it is but an artificiall Christ made by man whom they worshippe , and not ●he true Christ . Thus you see how they are iniurious to his person , for the which cause I said to you , that Papists by necessitie of consequence , denie Iesus the sonne of Marie to bee the Christ . Now to his Offices , they are all comprised vnder the name Christ , for he is the anoynted King , Prophet , and Priest of his Church .

And they will grant all that vnto you .

I know in word they will , but in effect they take his Offices from him ?

How can that be ?

You shall see how : what thinke you is the office of a Prophet ?

To teach .

You say verie well , and for this cause Christ is called the great Prophet raised vp among his brethren : And the great Angell of the counsell of God , who came into the World to reueile perfectly vnto the Church the will of God concerning mans saluation , and Gods worship : so that now once for all God hath spoken to vs in these last dayes by his sonne , and we haue not to expect from any other any further declaration of his will .

I thinke no man wil denie that .

You shall heare how it is denied , if first I make the point more clear vnto you : you know that the father proclaimed from Heauen , first at Iordan , then at mount Tabor , This is my welbeloued sonne in whom I am well pleased , heare him . See you not here how we are plainly commaunded to learne Gods will concerning our Saluation from the Sonne ?

Yea I see that , and it is good reason .

Then if you will come and heare what the Son saies , you shal see that as the Father sends vs to the Sonne , so the Sonne sends vs to the Scriptures : if we would haue eternall life search the Scriptures , and he witnesseth plainely Iohn 17.8 . The wordes which thou gauest mee , I gaue them , meaning to his Disciples . Where againe if you looke to the Disciples words : The Scripture ( sayes Saint Paul ) is able to make the man of God perfect , and therefore hee protests Act. 20 that he taught nothing but Moses and the Prophets , and yet that hee had deliuered to them the whole counsell of God . See you what a comfortable harmonie is here : The Father bids vs heare the Sonne ; the Sonne protests the wordes the Father gaue him , hee gaue to his Disciples ; and both of them sends vs to the Scripture , as conteining the whole counsell of God concerning our Saluation .

I see all that clearly .

Then what spirit are they led with that dare say , It had beene good for the Church the Scripture had neuer beene .

Who dare say that ?

I haue heard with mine eares defenders of Papistrie say it : and the positions of their owne Doctors no lesse blasphemous are extant to bee seene : Lectio Scripturae non , ●antùm est invtilis , sed pernitio samultis modis ; the reading of Holy Scripture is not only vnprofitable ; but pernicious . And therefore they wil not let the people read nor serch the Scripture , though Christ commanded : so to do● : and instoade of Scripture they intrude on the Church their owne decrees , and other traditions , which they make of equal authoritie with the Scripture . Thus you see how they take away Christs Propheticall office . Now to come to his Priestly office : you know the Priests office was twofold , first hee ought to sacrifice for the people , & next to pray for them .

And they acknowledge both these , that Christ hath offered himselfe in a propitiatory sacrifice for our sinnes , and that hee still makes intercession for v● in heauen .

I , but they so acknowledge it , that in both these offices they ioyne others with Christ , and so make him not a full and perfect Sauiour of his people by himselfe , but a halfe-Sauiour in part .

I vnterstand not that .

I shall make it cleare to you . There is the testimony of th● Word concerning the sufficiency of the merite of Christs bloud . The bloud of Christ his sonne clenseth vs from all sinne ,

They will not be against that .

But they are when they make this distinction , that principally Christs bloud clenseth from sinne ▪ but secondarily there must be other things with it to clens● sinne : as works of satisfaction in this life , and fire of Purgatorie in the life to come . By these also according to their own● doctrine ▪ sinne is clensed .

For my own part I would alwaies : reserue to Christ his owne glorie , which I know hee will not giue to any other ▪

You haue reason for you ▪ and you shall thinke it so much the more if you consider with me these two testimonies .

What are those ?

The first is Heb. 1.3 . That Christ by himselfe hath made purgation of our sinnes .

What will you gather of that place ?

A most necessary obseruation for clearing this controuersie , to wit , that the purging power of sinne is person●ll to Christ , he hath done it , by himselfe ▪ the vertue and benef●● of i● hee communicates to others that repent and belieue , bou●●e meriting power , by which God is reconciled ▪ and his iust●c● satisfied , he transfers not , n●ither to any mans person nor any other thing beside .

Surely , according to my vnderstanding that is a truth , wherin euery Christian should rest , for it is most comfortable to the conscience , since wee are not ●bl● , neith●r in whole nor in part to satisfie for our owne sinnes .

It is so indeed , and that you may bee the more confirmed , will you looke how the Iesuites who 〈◊〉 the light , because it conuinceth them of darkenesse , in●translating this place , leaue out t●is word By him self● : they , say he makes purgation of sinnes , but passe by this word , by himself , looke you their owne translation .

I se● ind●ed they haue it not ●n their tra●slation , but is it I pray you in the Greeke text ?

Yea forsooth if you can read it , these are the words , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

In truth this one place makes all their doctrine , concerning the supplement of Christs merits , iustly to be suspected : for since he hath made the purgation of our sinnes by himselfe , what should we looke that they are to bee purged by any other ?

You reason well .

I speake as I think : it is either pittiful ignorance , that they see not the truth , or their wilful malice that they dare mutilate so cleare a place of holy Scripture , leauing it out of their Bible , because it ●akes against them .

But now take in with this the other testimony of holy Scripture , whereof I spake . you haue it Heb. 7. ver. 25. Christ is able to saue perfectly ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) all that come vnto God by him .

I see that is also a comfortable place .

So it is indeed : for as the first makes you see that Christs meriting power is personall , & in himselfe , not transf●rred to any other ▪ so this makes you see it is perfect : hee hath done the worke of our saluation in his owne person , and hee hath done it perfectly : What more can you craue ?

Truly I craue no more .

Away then with these rotten dregges of Papistrie , that teach vs to depend vpon other merites , & vpon an other bloud ( as I shewed you the first day ) besides the merits of the bloud of Christ .

For my own part I think neuer to leane to them , but will rest vpon that onely perfect sacrifice of Christ offered on the Crosse for my sinnes .

If you abide there , you are vpon the sure foundation ; and remember you must renounce all other sacrifices , which derogate from the perfection & sufficiency of that one sacrifice of Christ .

I will indeed ▪

Then for your confirmation marke these places . Christ in the end of the world hath appeared once to put away sinne by the sacrif●●e of himselfe . Heb. 9.26 . Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many , Heb. 9.28 . Wee are sanctified by the offering of the body of Iesus Christ once , Heb. 10.10 . This man after he had offered one sacrifice for sinnes , sits foreuer at the right hand of God . Heb. 10.12 . With one offering hath he ●onsecrated for euer them that are sanctified . Heb. 10.14 . where remission of sinnes is , there is no more offering for sin , Heb. 10.18 . Christ needed not daily ( as these high Priests ) to offer vp sacrifice , first for his owne sinnes , and then for the peoples : for that did hee once , when he offered vp himselfe , Heb. 7.27 . without shedding of blood , is no remission . Heb. 9.22 . Perceiue you not here that the Apostle repeating this so oft , that Christ was once offered , for taking away our sinnes , destroyeth all other pretended sacrifices for sinne , and specially that sacrifice of the Masse , which they say is a propitiatorie sacrifice for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead .

Truely the places are so plaine , that very children may vnderstand them , and I would God that these poore people , who of a blind mind dote after Masses , thinking by it to gette the pardon of their sinnes , had this benefite of Gods word , as you haue it , that so by the light of it they might come to the knowledge of the truth .

And I wish the same from my heart , But now to confirm you yet further , I pray you mark how blasphemous and deceitfull a thing their Masse is . First , is not this a mockerie of GOD the Father , To desire him to accept his owne Sonne : Is Christ out of the fauour of his Father ? said he not ; He is my Son in whom I am well pleased ? shall a mortal & miserable sinful Priest be a Mediatour , or Peacemaker betweene the Father and the Sonne , praying the Father that he would accept his Sonne , and send downe an Angell to take vp his bodie into Heauen ?

Fie vpon it : It is a vile blasphemie .

Secondly , see you not how it inverts Gods ordinance ? for where hee hath ordained a Sacrament , wherein God offers and giues his Sonne to vs ; they haue changed it into a sacrifice , wherein they offer vp the Son to the Father .

I see that also ▪

Thirdly , Is it not an iniurious thing to Christ , to say that any can offer him vp to God , but himselfe ?

It is inde●de : for as no other Sacrifice can satisfie Gods iustice , so no other sacrificer can bee worthie to offer him but himselfe , as is cleare out of your former Testimonies :

Fourthly , Is it not a deceiuing of the people , to say that an vnbloudie Sacrifice ( such as they say the Masse is ) can bee propitiatorie to obtaine remission of sinnes ?

It is indeed , and expresly against the Word of God you haue alledged , Without shedding of bloud there is no remission : they grant themselues that in the Masse there is no shedding of bloud , and how then can it giue pardon or remission of sinnes ?

Well then , since by this you see how they derogate from Christs sacrifice , which is the first part of Christes priestly office , I will now let you see how they also cut away the other , namely , his intercession . Marke that place of the Apostle , There is one God , and one Mediator of God and Man , the Man Christ Iesus .

They haue a distinction for that , and say , there is but one Mediator of redemption , but for Intercession many .

But will you consider the place ; and you shall see where the Apostle sayes , there is but one Mediator , he is speaking of Intercession and praying , and so his meaning must be , There is one Mediator of Intercession : read the place and see .

I see it is so indeed .

Now with it wil you but ioyne this place of Augustine , Qui pro omnibus interpellat pro quo autem nullus , Cont. Epist. Parme● . l. 2. cap. 8 , is verus & vnicus mediator est : He that interceeds for al , for whom none interceedes , is the onely true Mediator . And there hee sayes it should bee a great absurdity , if Paul were called a Mediator , for so there should be many Mediators of Intercession .

But should not Christians interceede one of them for an other , as wee are commanded , One of you pray for an other .

They should indeed : but you must vnderstand , that this and the like precepts are for Christians here militant on earth in one communion , wherin alike one of them is bound to helpe an other by their praiers .

But do not they who are in heauen pray for the Church militant on earth ?

I thinke they doe in general , but not vpon any particular knowledge of our priuat necessities , troubles or tentations .

How can that be ?

You may soon vnderstand how , for if they know your griefes , it is either by hearing of your words , or vnderstanding of your thoughts , or by some Reuelation made to them . Thinke yee they know your thoghts .

No indeed , that is proper to God .

Think you they hear your voice , when you expresse in prayer your thoughts by your words .

I cannot thinke that neither , since they want their bodies which haue the organs of hearing .

Then they must know it by Reuelation .

It is most likely that when wee pray , God tels them our necessities .

What neede you then to pray them to interceede for you .

But how shall wee goe to a King but by his Courtiers ?

What a silly refuge is that ? You haue forgotten what you answered euen now . See you not here how that similitude vsed by Papists is destroied , to wit , That as wee goe to earthly Kings by Courtiers , so we shold goe to the King of Heauen , by heauenly Courtiers : for here it is not the Courtier that shewes our necessities to the King , but the King you see shewes them to his Courtiers . And would you not think him a foole , who may haue the King himselfe to speake to , and knowes hee will be welcome if he speake as hee should , and yet passeth by the King , and depends vpon Courtiers to haue his turne done by them ?

I thinke no lesse then you say , but how is it then they pray for vs in generall ?

I will shew you how : there are foure sorts of prayer , one called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , whereby we craue ●uill to be diuerted from vs ; an other called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , whereby wee s●●ke some good wee want to bee giuen vnto vs : the third is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , whereby one of vs interceedes for an other : and the fourth is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , thanksgiuing for good receiued . Now they who are in heauen are freede from tentation , and so 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 is not ascribed to them : neither yet is euer 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 in holy scripture giuen them : They rest from their labours , they are not busied to be patrones to seueral Countries , Cities and Companies of people , hauing the particular cures of seuerall diseases parted among them , that is but a doting dreame of Papistri● : but you will finde 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , thanksgiuing ascribed to them , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , too in generall , whereby they pray for some good they yet want , but look to enioy : as is euident out of their owne words , How long Lord : for this is the voice of these who want some thing they would faine haue .

Tell me I pray you what want they who are in heauen ?

First , these glorified spirits want their bodies , without the which they can neuer haue full contentment : for the soule and body were created companions , the perfection of both stands in the promised vnion of both .

I vnderstand that very well : but want they no other thing , for which they cry , How long ?

Yea , they want their brethren , all them that belong to the communion of Saints ; their desire shall not be satisfied till all their brethren bee where they are : for God hath so prouided that th●y without vs should not bee perfected .

In truth that is exceeding comfortable , that Adam , Abraham , & the rest of that congregation of the first borne shal not be perfected till we come to them , yea , til the full number of Gods Saints bee accomplished . But is there no other thing they long for ?

Yea , they long and pray for the comming of Christ , Euen so come Lord Iesus : at which time they know verie well , that all the promises of God shall bee performed to all and euerie one of the Saints of God . Thus farre you see how they in Heauen do pray in generall .

But you thinke not that we should praie to them in our particular necessities .

No indeed ▪ for beside the former reason , we haue no warrant to praie vnto them , and so cannot doe it in faith . Will you consider can there bee any better Schoolemasters to teach vs how to pray then the persons of the blessed Trinitie ? and thinke you not we are surest when wee prai● in such a manner as they haue taught ?

That cannot bee denied .

Then I pray you marke it , there is the voice of God the Father , Psal. 50.15 . Call vpon me ; there is the precept of God the Son , When you pray you shall say in this manner , Our Father which art in Heauen &c. there is againe the voice of God the Holy Ghost , who when hee teacheth vs to pray , teacheth vs , Rom. 8. Crie abba , Father . What say you to these , is there any word here of praier to Cherubin , or Seraphin ? is there any warrant for turning ouer of all the prayers in the Psalme booke to the Virgin Marie ? O Ladie that art my righteousnesse . Psal. 4. O Ladie reprooue mee not in thy wrath . Psal. 6.

Truly I can say no●hing against them , for I see according to Gods Word it is the surest and safest way to pray to God by the mediation of Christ .

But now I will bring you one cleare instance , to let you see how Papistrie takes away Christs intercession , and sets him idle in the Heauens .

What is that ?

They say there is in Heauen , a King , God the Father ; & a Queene the Virgin Marie ; and that the King hath giuen to the Queen dimidium regni , Gab. Biel. in Cau. Miss. ●ect . 56. the halfe of his Kingdome ; the Ministration of Iustice hee hath kept to himselfe ; the Ministration of Mercie hee hath giuen ouer to the Virgin Marie : such as seeke Iustice goe to the King of Heauen , such as seeke Mercie goe to the Queene , who also by her authoritie hath power to command her Sonne Christ Iesus .

Good sooth these are too grosse speeches , for as you haue said , they make Christ idle in Heauen , or like a childe vnder Tuition : for my owne part I will keepe that reuerent estimation of the blessed Virgin , that is due to her : but will euer reserue to Christ the glorie of a Sauiour and Mediatour .

Let it bee so , only now I will let you see that as Papistrie destroies many Articles of our Christian faith , concerning the person , and Offices of Christ : So it is a P●st of Common-wealths , loosing al the bands of human fellowshippe and societie .

That is strange : for there are many flourishing Kingdomes with vnitie and peace that professe Papistrie .

Remember you what our Sauiour sayes in the Parable . So long as the strong man keepes his house all is in quiet , but when a stronger then hee comes in to bind him , there begins the battell : So long as Sathan possessed the World by the darknesse of Papistrie , there was a miserable felicitie in it , and a cursed vnitie , such as was in Sodom , where young and old from the foure corners of the Citie conspired and agreed to one impietie : But now since Christ comes in by his glorious Gospell to illuminate his owne with the light thereof , that which before seemed peace in Papistrie , now appeares to bee a fir● come from Hel seeking to deuoure all such as forsake h●r errours , and embrace the truth of God .

I , but that is a thing wherwith they charge the Gospel , that since it was preached , many Sects and Heresies are risen vp in the world , which were not in it before .

I pray you consider what a Polici● of Sathan that is to disgrace the Gospell : how manie Heresies arose in the Apostles dayes or soone after , that was not in the World before . Then came vp Simon Magus , Cerinthus , Ebion , Marcion , Basilides , Menander , Valentinus , Cerdon , Marcion , and many more . Shall the Gospell be blamed for this ? or rather may you not see it is the craft of the Deuill to disgrace the Gospell ?

Indeede I thinke it no good reason that the Gospell should be the lesse esteemed of . There is but one truth , but manifold errours ; and I remember our Sauiour warning vs of thi● in that Parable of the Gospell ; That where the good Husbanman sowes good wheat in the day , incontinent comes the Enemie that euill one , and sowes his popple in the night .

Now if you apply that to our present question , the doubt is easily solued : So long as the World was blinded with idolatrie and the Masse ( which in effect is but a Masse of Heresies ) Sathan laie quiet , hee was not troubled in his Kingdome , and hee raised no trouble in the World : but since the light of the Gospell discouered his darkenesse , and that hee findes his Kingdome decaying , and himselfe falling by the preaching of the Gospell , now he bestirres himselfe more busily , and doth what he can to disgrace this glorious Evangell by vile heresies of some that impugne it , and profane liues of others who professe it . But as you see , it is no reason why the Gospell should be blamed for any of these .

It is not indeed . But now you remember you beganne to discourse how Papistrie is a Pest of Common-wealthes , Kingdoms , dissoluing all the bands of humane fellowshippe , and societie among men .

Now I will let you see it There is own of their Positions ; It is llawfull to spoile an Heretique of his goods , Grat. Caus. 1● . 4 . glossa . meliùs tamen est quod auihoritate indicis fiat : though it were better to do it by authoritie of the Iudge . In their iudgement all Protestants are Heretiques , and so they make it lawful for Papists both to steale and reaue from them .

That is strange indeede ; and yet I haue many times mar●a●led what should haue moued the M●c gregors ; and other Licentious Men of our Island ▪ who knew no Religion , to professe Papistrie , but now I see the reason of it ; for it made their robberie good Christianitie .

Here are other , Vxor catholica viro haeretico beneuolum reddere non te●e●ur , Siman●h● Pacens . Ep̄isc●pus Institut. Gregor. 13. , that is to say in plaine t●rmes , a Wife that is a Papist is not bound to render due ben●uolence to her Husband being a Protestant .

That assertion is more shameles then the other , plaine contrarie ( as I remember ) to the Apoles doctrine , 1. Cor. 7.13 . Let not a Woman forsake her husband who beleeues not , if hee bee content to dwell with her .

You take it vp very well , and you may see how Papistrie breakes the band of fellowship betweene Husband and Wife .

I see it indeed , and this resolues me of an other doubt , for I haue maruailed often what should mooue so many Ladies to become Catholique Roman , but now I see it is a plausible Religion for such Wiues as are male-content with their Husbands , for it loos●th them from that subiection where vnto God hath bound them .

Take the third : It disslolues the bands betweene the Father and the Sonne Pater qui filium habet haereticum , C●rd . Alan . exhaereditare ten●tur● talem filium ▪ A Father that is a Papist and hath ● Sonne that is a Protestant , he is bound to disinherit him . Again Pr●pter haere sin patris s●lij sunt sui iuris , Siman●ha Ep●s . Pacens . Instit. Cathol. lib. 46. ●er. 74. by the Heresie of the Father the Child● is fre●d from obedience .

Fie vpon them that maintain● such grosse positions .

Y●t there is worse following . Caus. ●3 Quaesi . 8. Haeretici f●i● vel consanguineinon dicantur , sed ●●x●alegem sit m●nus tua super eos , vt ●undas sanguinem ipsorum . Heretiques may not bee termed Children , nor Kinsmen , but according to the olde Law thy hand must bee vpon them to spill their bloud . There are all the bands of Nature , Affinitie , Consanguinitie , destroyed by Papistrie , and they thinke it lawful for Papists to slaie their own Children or their Kinsmen , if they bee Protestants : What thinke you , is it good dwelling with such Vipers ? and are our Protestants wise to make alliance by marriages with them ?

In good faith I am ashamed in their behalfe , and I think it no maruell you call Papistrie a Pest of Common-wealthes .

You shall heare but one and I will trouble you with no more . It dissolueth the band of subjection wherin people stand bound to their Princes : Subditi licitè possunt haeretico domino negare obs●quium . Popish Subjects may lawfully denie obedience to a Protestant King . Againe , Non licet Christianis tolerare regem Haereticum : Bellar. lib. 5. de ●om . Po●ti● . cap. 6.7 . & 4. It is not lawfull for Christians to tollerate an Hereticall King , they may expell him , depose him , yea murther him : And this they say is agreeable to the Apostolique Doctrine .

Away with it , for it may rather bee called a Doctrine of Deuils , who is the Father of lies , Seditions , Diuisions , and Murthers .

And yet these are the common lessons , which are taught and practised by the Doctors , and Disciples of that whorish Church of Rome . But how fals●ly they call this Doctrine Apostolique . Consider what was the Apostles Doctrin concerning the obedience of people vnto their Kings . Read there what Saint Peter saith .

I perceiue he bids honour the King , and commaunds the people to submit them selues vnto the King as Superiour , or vnto Gouernours ( vnder him . )

Very well : Tell me now who was King , and Supre●me Gouernour when Peter wrote this , was it not Nero ? a vile Monster , a bloudie Persecutor , yet you see Peter bids not depose him , farre lesse bids he kill him . Looke againe to the Fathers of the Primitiue Church : see Iustine Martyr , Apol. ad Anton. Deum solum adoramus , in alijs vobis inseruimus laeti , Imperatores & Principes honum esse prof●tentes , & simul precantes , vt cum imperiali potestatem sanam quoque men●em obtinere comperiamini . We worship God only , in all other things we serue you with gladnesse , acknowledging you to be the Emperours , and Princes of men , praying also that with your Imperiall power yee may haue a sound mind . Here you see in all thing● , except in matter of Gods Worship , Seruice professed to the Emperour , and Prayer made for such Princes as are contrarie minded to Christianitie , but no treason nei●her taught nor practised . The like hath Ignatius ; Ad Antioch Caesari sub●iti estote in ijs , quibus sine periculo est ipsa subiectio : Bee subiect to Caesar in all thinges , wh●rein you may without peril of conscience : Lib. ad Sca●ul . And Tertullian also , Co●imus Imperatorem vt ho●●inem a Deo secundum , solo Deo minorem : Wee reu●rence the Emperour as next and immediate vnder God , hauing none but God aboue him . Againe , Christianis nullius est host is , Tertul. Apolog. c●p . ●8 29. & 30. nediùm Imperatoris , quem sciens a Deo suo constitui , necesse est , vt & ipsum di●igat , & reuereatur , & honoret , & salvum velit cum toto Romano Imperio . A Christian is no mans Enemi● , farre lesse the Emperours Enemie , hee knowes that hee is placed by the Lord his God and therefore it cannot be but he must loue him , reuerence him , honour him , and wish his safetie , and the welfare of the Empire . Let Papists now bee ashamed to pretend either Apostles , or Apostolique men , as if they were Patrons of that pernicious Doctrine , whereby they teach their people to murther Princes , if they be contrarie minded to them in Religion .

Doe it if they will they haue good cause .

Now ( Sir ) because to morrow is the Sabbath , if you please to goe to the Church I will come and goe with you .

I am v●rie well content , and I thanke you for it .

THE SEVENTH , OR SABBOTH DAYES CONFERENCE . Wherein the order obserued in the Church of SCOTLAND , is declared to be conforme to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles , and practised in the Primitiue Church . C.

GOod morrow ( Sir ) are you ready to goe ?

When you please .

What Church wil yee goe to or whom of the Preachers desire you to heare ?

Make you the choice , I will accompany you .

Let vs goe then , because you are a ftranger : here you will pardon me to goe before , and shew you the way into the Church , and shew you where you should sit .

I thank you for it . What is this the people are going to doe ?

They bow themselues before the Lord , to make an humble confession of their sins and supplications for mercy ; which you will heare openlie read out by the publik● reader . Now when it is done what thinke you of the prayer ?

Truly I thinke there is no thing in it , but that wherunto eueri● good Christian should say Amen : and it hath done me much good to see the people with humble reuerence , sighing and groning , accompanie the praier vp to God . But what goe they now to doe ?

Euerie one is preparing ( as you see ) their Psalme-book , that all of them with one heart and mouth , may sing vnto the Lord . There is the Psalme which the Reader hath proclaimed , if you please you may sing with them , or if you cannot follow them in your heart .

So I will . What doth the Reader now , is he making an other praier ?

No , yonder booke which now hee open is the Bible : you will heare him read some portion of holy Scripture . Vnd●rstand you what he saies ?

Yea for sooth , wel enough for hee reades very distinctly .

These are the three exercises which are vsed in all our congregations , euerie Saboth one houre before the preacher come in , first prayer , then psalms then reading of holi● scripture● and by these the hearts of ●he people are prepared the more reuerently to heare the word , & you see all is done with great quietn●sse , deuotion , and reuerence .

I see that ind●ed .

We haue no ser●ice h●re you see in a strange langu●ge the Preacher speakes , and the people prayes in their mother tongue : but the new forme of the Romish Church is to haue all their diuine seruice in the latine tongue .

Truly , I haue ofttimes maruelled at it ▪ what should moue them to make their prai●●● in a language the people vnderstands not .

Vitalianus Bishop of Rome , was the first father of this nouelty .

Put what are they doing now ?

You heare the third Bell ringing , and in this space the reading ceaseth , and at the ●nd of the Bel ringing , the Preacher will come : But till the Preach●r come in , reade this place of the Apostle Saint Paul , and you shall see what was the old form vsed in the Primitiue Church , and that ours is very agreeabie vnto it , Read the 1 Corinth. 14. ver. 6.

And now ( Brethren ) if I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues , what shall I profite you ? except I speake to you either by Reuelation , or by knowledge , or by prophesying , or by doctrine ?

7 Moreouer things without life which giue a sound , whether it be a pipe or a harpe , except they make a distinction in the sounds , how shall it be knowne what is piped or harped ?

8 And also if the Trumpet giue an vncertaine sound , who shall prepare himselfe to battell ?

9 So likewise yee by the tongue , except you vtter wordes that haue signification , how shall it be knowne what is spoken ? for you shall speake in the aire .

10 There are so many kindes of voices ( as it commeth to passe ) in the world , and none of them is dumbe .

11 Except I know then the power of the voice , I shall bee vnto him that speaketh a B●rbarian , and hee that speaketh shall bee a Barbarian vnto me .

12 Euen so , forasmuch as yee couet spirituall gifts , seeke that yee may excell vnto the edifying of th● Church .

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue , pray that hee may interpret .

14 For , if I pray in a strange tongue , my spirit prayeth , but my vnderstanding is without fruit .

15 What is it then ? I will pr●y with the spirit , but I will pray with the vnderstanding also : I will sing with the spirit , and I will sing with the vnderstanding also .

16 Else when thou blessest with the spirit , how shall hee who occupieth the roome of the vnlearned , say , Amen : at the giuing of thankes , seeing hee knoweth not what thou sayest ?

17 For thou verily giuest thanks well , but the other is not edified .

18 I thank my God I speak languages more then yee all .

19 Yet had I rather in the Church to speake fiue words with mine vnderstanding , that I might also instruct others , then ten thousand wor●es in a straenge tongue . You see here that by the Apostles precept , the seruice of God in the publike assemblies of th● Church , should be done in such a language as the people may vnderstand .

I see it indeed .

Now if it like you for your further confirmation , I wil shew you how the same order , which this day is obserued in our Church concerning the exercises of Gods worship , was also obserued in the Primitiue Church neerest the Apostles dayes .

It likes me very well to heare it .

Then will I tell you it out of Iustin Maertyr .

What a Father was he ? Apol. 2. ad Anton. Pi●m imperat

A very ancient and learned man , hee liued in the yeare one hundred and fiftie , and of a Philosopher was conuerted to be a Christian : he wrote to the Emp●rour and Senate of Rome , two Apologies in defence of Christian Religion : in the second of them so he writes , Die qui solis dicitur omnes qui in oppidis ; vel agris morantur , vnum in locum conueniunt , commentari●que Apostolorum , vel Prophetarum scripta leguntur , quandiu hora patitur , deinde vbi is qui legit destitit , is qui prae est admonet , & hortatur vt e● quae lecta sunt bona imitemur , tum surgimus omnes ac compre●●mur , conclusisqu● nostris precibus panis , vinum , & aquae offeruntur , tum is qui primum locum tenet ●odem modo preces , gratiarumque actionem pro virili mittit , populusque bene dicit , dicens , Amen , & ijs quae cum gr●tiarum actione consecrata sunt vnusquisque participat , eadem ad eos quiabsunt diaconis dantur perferenda , Quibus copiae suppetunt , ij si volunt , quisque si●o arbitratu quod vult largitur , quodque colligitur apud eum qui praest reponitur , isque pupillis , & viduis , & ijs quos morbus , aliaue caeusa inopes fecit , & ijs qui in vinculis sunt , & hospitib●s ●ubuenit . Vpon that day which is called Sunday , all Christians resident in townes and villages assemble in one place , where the written Comment●ries of the Prophets and Apostles are read for the space of an howre , the which being done , the Preacher or President ouer the flocke , admonisheth & exhorts vs to follow the wholesome word read : then get wee all vp and pray together : our prayers being finished , bread , wine , and water are presented , and then the Preacher conceiues feruent praier and thanksgiuing , and the people blesse God , saying , Amen : then euery one taketh a part of these things which were consecrate by thanksgiuing , the same things also are giuen to the Deacons to be● conuaied to these who are absent : And such as haue the things of this world contributes to the poor● as they please , and that which is collected , is giuen him in trust who is President , & hee therwith supports the widdow , fatherlesse , & these whom sicknes or any other cause hath made indigent , as also strangers , and these who are imprisoned . I might shew you the like out of of Tertullian , in his Apologie , aduersus Gentes , Cap. 39. But now the time serues not .

It needes not for that place , you haue brought from the Apostle , and this other from Iustin Mart●r , may let any man see the order & exercise , which Christians of the church Primitiue obs●rued in their holy assemblies for I see no other thing among them ( as you said ) but publik● reading of the word in a plaine language done by the Reader till the Preacher come in , then publike singing of Psalms by all the people , th●n preaching , prayer , and collection for the poore .

You take it vp very well , and God be praised you see that same order among vs : And you who haue seene their seruice , & dumb guise of their Masse , their mumbling of prayers in the Latine tongue , and the vnreuerent prophaning of the sabbath , that is among their people for la●ke of discipline , may soone discerne that how soeuer they brag of an Apostolike Church , yet they haue not kept the ancient Apostolike order .

It is true indeed , for if a man wil goe to a Papists church to heare Masse , he shall not discerne what the Priest sayes , vnlesse he vuderstand Latine , and I haue many times thought strange of it .

But it falles out very well that so it should bee : The first Babel for her proud vsurpation , was punished with confusion of Languages , that when the builder spake the people knew not what he craued ; and iustly is the like , Yea a worse plague , in so much as it is Spirituall powred out vpon new Babel , for her intollerable presumption , that when their Priest speakes the people wots not what he sayes .

In truth it is a great blindnesse .

And so yee may say : for albeit they had no cleare Diuine warrant in the Word , yet considering that God by an extraordinary decree declared his will to themselues , it is strange they should not giue place vnto it .

Where haue you that ? Hist. Bohem. Cap. 13.

I find it in Aen●as Siluius their owne man , that when the Slauonians sought licence from Pope Formosus that they might celebr●te Diuine Seruice in their owne mother tongue , the matter being disputed in the Popes Counsell , a voice was heard from Heauen saying , Omnis spiritus laudet Deum , & omnis lingua confiteatur illi : Let euerie Spirit praise the Lord , and all tongues confesse him : Wherevpon at that time that benefit was granted to the Slauonians : but thinke yee it not strange that it should bee denied to other people ?

I thinke so indeed , specially since the Lord hath declared his will so plainely both in his word , and in that extraordinari● reuelation . But wee must let this alone , for there comes the Preacher . And now ( I pray you ) tell mee how I should behaue my selfe .

Trouble you not , doe a● you see others beside you : for first he will conceiu● a Pray●r , at the which the people humbles themselues ; thereafter he reads his Text of Holy Scripture , this the people heare with reuerence , then hee falles to the preaching which some heare with their heads couered , some otherwise , ( in that you may doe as your health requires ▪ ) the preaching being ended hee concludes all with a thanksgiuing , after which there is a Psalme sung by the whole Congregation , and then the Minister blesseth the people in the name of the Lord , and so dimits them : you will see no other thing here .

Well , I shal obserue it the best I can .

Now what thinke of it ?

In truth I think it a most comely and comfortable order , and I thanke God , it is the best Sabbath day that euer I saw .

Considered you his Text , and how he opened it vp ?

Yea I haue : Saint Paul in it makes m●ntion of his owne conuersion , and how he was receiu●d to mercy by Christ Iesus , of whom he witnesseth h● came into the World to saue sinners .

You heard him there declare , how the elect Children of God before their calling differ not in maners from reprobates , but when grac● comes it makes the difference , and causeth them to say with the Apostle , I was a blasphemer , a persecutor , an Idolater , &c. but now ( thankes to God ) I am not so .

I heard it verie well , and from my heart I also giue thankes to God , who hath receiued mee to his mercie : for I was plunged in the darkenesse of Idolatrie , beside many other filthie sinnes which oppressed mee : but the Lord hath deliuered mee from them all , blessed be God for it . And I thanke you ( my deare Brother ) who hath been an instrument of his grace toward me .

Nay ( Sir ) all thankes and praise bee vnto the Lord : hee seekes and saues that which was lost , he reduceth his own from their wandrings , and giues life to them who were dead .

FINIS .