An aunswer to sixe reasons, that Thomas Pownde, Gentleman, and prisoner in the Marshalsey. at the commaundement of her Maiesties Commissioners, for causes Ecclesisasticall: required to be aunswered Because these reasons doo moue him to think, that controuersies and doubts in religion, may not be iudged by the Scriptures, but that the Scriptures must be iudged by the Catholique Church. ... Written by Robert Crovvley.

7. September . 1580. ¶ Sixe Reasons set downe to shew , that it is no orderly way in controuersies of faith , to appeale to be tryed only by Scriptures ( as the absurde opinion of all the Sectaries is ) but the sentence & definition of the Catholike Church , by whome , as by the Spowse of Christ , alwayes inspired with the holy ghost , the holy Scripture is to be iudged .

FIrst consider well these words of our Sauiour in sending vs to the Scriptures , saying : Searche the Scriptures , for you thinke to haue eternall life in them . And these are they that beare witnesse of me . Marke well these wordes , Iohn . ● . I say : that the Scripture is but witnesse bearer to the trueth , and not the Iudge to discerne of trueth : for iudgement giuing belongeth not to the witnesse bearer , although he be as a rule to leade and direct the Iudge in true iudgement . But what if this witnesse should be currupted , as no man will deny but it may , yet this Iudge to whome the holy Ghost is promised , will finde it , and reforme it . Vnderstand therfore my Reasons , why of necessitie the Church must be Iudge of the Scriptures , and take your Pen and confute them I pray you if you can .

1. The first is , The first Reason . because the written Text is mute and dumbe , vttering nothing to vs from the Booke but only the wordes , and not the sense , wherein the lyfe as it were of the Scripture consisteth : And what definitiue sentence can such a Iudge giue , to ouer rule the conceyted minde of an opinatiue man : which hath no euident meanes to pronounce any iudgement against him , but onely to shewe him a dumbe signe in writing , which a wrangler may conster styll to his owne vnderstanding against all the worlde .

2 The second Reason is , because the holy Scripture ( as S. Augustine sayth ) The second Reason . is very full of harde and déepe anysteries , in so much that when Honoratus sayd to him ( as many vnlearned men say now a dayes ) that he vnderstood it well enough without helpe of any instructor . Say you so ( sayth he ) you would not take vpon you to vnderstand such a Poet as Terence is , well , without a Maister ? and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries , without a Maister ? and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries , without a guide ? All Heresies ( sayth he ) come of nothing else , Nisi dum scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene : But whyle the good Scriptures are not well vnderstoode : Héerto also S. Peter in his second Epistle Cap. 3. beareth witnesse saying : That many misunder stood S. Paule in many harde places peruersly to their owne perdition : But then you will say , the harde places may easely he vnderstoode by conference of other Scriptures . Well , admit a chyldish reason for a worde or two , That because they might so be among the humble minded , therfore they must néeds be so , though men be neuer so peruerse : Yet giue mée leaue to pose you then one Question farther to the quick . Howe is it possible to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures , which is Canonicall Scripture and which is not ? certainely , if any Infidell would deny the olde Testament ( as some Heretikes in time past haue done ) and I praye God there be not many ▪ Atheistes at this day in England , which be farther gone yet then they : Yea , if such a one should deny all the newe Testament also , we haue no sure Anckor holde against him but the Reuelation of God , by tradition to his Church , which is the pyllor and sure stay of trueth , which S. Augustine well séeing , thought he might be bolde to say , with due reuerence to God , and holie Scripture bothe : I should not beleue the Gospell except the authoritie of the Church did moue me thereunto , meanyng that the tradition of the vniuersall Churche , and the testimonie of all the people of God , in whom the holie Ghoste dwelleth , must iustly moue vs to credite that , whiche their authoritie doth commaunde vs to giue credite vnto . Therefore let any man beware of fliyng from the Churches Iudgement , to the Scripture onely , least the Scripture it self should vtterly bee denied , as by some Atheistes in Englande ( as I heare saie is alreadie : And then might suche Infidels laugh all Heretickes to scorne , for robbyng them selues of their owne defence : But now to returne to my purpose , if conference of one Scripture with an other , might giue light enough to all men : How happeneth it that all Sects , vsing that conference , yet thei can neuer agrre in their opinions , but diuers men , and all vsing suche conference , doe yet construe it diuersly ? The vttermoste shifte thei haue is this , ( suche a weake one as it is , ) that the Reader must giue hymself to prayer , for the truthe to be reuealed vnto hym . Wherein marke I praie you the iutollerable pride of arrogant Hypocrites : that thei will first mistrust Gods reuelation of the truthe to his Vniaersall Churche , for the whiche Christe himself hath prayed , and promised to teache them all tr 〈…〉 moste presumptuously to come and 〈…〉 pt God , to haue that truthe reuealed onely to them selues , whiche beyng reuealed many hundreth yeares agone , and defined in generall Counsell , by all the holie Fathers : where the holie Ghoste is alwaies present , or at leaste by the holie Doctors in their writynges set doune , yet thei will not beleeue it , nor harken vnto it : yet this is their course , and so as thei saie forsoothe , thei praie very hartely , though fewe of them can wring out any teares in their praiers , but yet with suche a faithe in the Lorde ( as their owne terme is ) that they dooe all verely beleeue the truthe is reuealed vnto them . And yet perdie , thei must needes be all deceiued , as long as thei dwell in dissention , and are not in errors onely , but one contrarie to an other : who now must be the Iudge to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no , but onely the Churche ? Or els shall thei not bee tried at all , but continuall permission for infinite Legions of liyng spirites , to be still vndetected that thei maie seduce more and more .

3 The third Reason is , The third Reason . 2. Pet. 1. d. because S. Peter saieth plainly , that no Scripture is to bee taken after any miuate interpretation , for it was not vttered after the will and fantasie of man , but as holie men of God spake it , inspired by the holy Ghost : yet most contrary to this expresse rule , euery priuate man shall haue libertie to interprete it to his owne peruers will ▪ after a priuate interpretation , otherwise then at first it was inspired to the holy men . If euer man maie appeale from the Ecclesiasticall sence of the vniuersall Churche to the Text it self , as he vnderstandeth it .

4 The fourth Reason is , The fourth Reason . becausé by appealyng onely to the Scripture , you séeme to giue men libertie to denie all vnwritten verities , which wee haue receiued of the Churche , either by expresse definition in generall Counsaile , or but by tradition . And I beleeue at my firste na 〈…〉 of unwritten verities : Maister Crowley and his 〈…〉 straight waie , as though all suche were 〈…〉 to temper their follie ( I will not saie their pride ) a 〈…〉 that point . I aske them all this question . How thei proue the Trinitie of persones in the Vnitie of the substaunce in Godheade by the expresse Scriptures ? Or the two distinct natures in Christe and but one person ? Or God the Father to be Ingenitus ? Or the proceedyng of the holy Ghoste , both from the Father and from the Sonne , as from one Fountaine : or the descendyng of Christ into Hell , by plaine wordes of Scripture ? ( beyng therefore of many now a daies flatly deuyed , ) Or the custome of Baptising of Infants , seeyng the Scripture , soundeth rather , as though thei should bee taught first their faith , before their were Baptized , saiyng : Goe and teathe all Nations Baptizyng them . &c. Or why we should kéepe the Sondaie now at all , and not the Saterdaie rather whiche was the Iewes Sabothe daie , that the Scripture speaketh of to be sanctified ? Although your Puritanes which goe to plough vpon all the Churches Holydaies , seeme not yet to know the Sondaie , for any of their makyng : or why we should not abstaine now still like Iewes from strangled meates , as the Apostels once decreed in the Acts , and by no expresse Scripture againe abrogated ? Yea then why maie not any Hereticke denie al our thrée Créedes : both the Apostles Créede , the Nicen Creede as it is called , & the Creede of Athanasius , seing neuer a one of these is written in Scripture expresly , but all lefte vs by tradition onely vpon credite of the Churche . Marke you not how these Bedlem Scripture men would shake all the foundations of our Christian faith , by binding vs to beleue nothing but Scripture ? Do not these blinde guides thinke you , leade us a trim daunce towarde infidelitie ? Thus muche of the fourth Reason .

5 The fift is because that without a certaine Iudge for interpretation of Scripture absolutely , The fift Reason . this absurditie would followe that God which is the Author of al perfection , and disposeth euery thing in swete & decent order , had left his vniuersall Church in yearth in this confusion : that when soeuer any doubtfull question should arise , vpon construction of his holy will , there were no prouision at all ordained by God for deciding of such strifes , and preseruation of concord among his people , and then certainly the kingdome of Gods Churche , were not so well prouided for in their gouernment : as euery ciuill kindome is by pollicie of carnall men , amongst whom , none almost are so barbarous , but that thei haue Counsellers for gouernment of their state , & Iudges for expounding , & executing of their lawes , aswell as lawes written , or els it were ridiculus : would not he be counted a very wise man ( thinke you , ) in one of our Parliamentes , whiche should steppe vp like a graue Burgesse , and perswade all his fellowes that for asmuche as thei had a noble and an auncient Lawe written vnto them , the Realme should haue no longer neede henceforthe of any Prince , nor any Rulers , nor Peeres , nor Iudges , nor Iustices , nor ciuill Magistrates , but euery man ( vppon his worde for the warrant ) would bee content to gouerne hym self orderly by the lawe written , whiche ( as his wisedome ) thinkes is plaine enough . And truely no wiser be thei but muche more to bee laughed to scorne whiche will haue the Scripture to bee the onely Iudge for euery man to appeale vnto , and refuse all authoritie of the Churche in expoundyng thereof : for who knoweth not that the Arrian Heretickes , brought fortie places of Scripture for their horrible Heresie , more then the Catholikes had against theim , but all falsely vnderstoode , whiche when it is so misunderstoode and misapplied , then S. Augustine calleth it the Heretickes howe , wherewith they shoote out their owne venemous arrowes . And Vincent Lir. saieth , it is then the Sheepes cloathyng , whiche the Wolfe doeth shroude hym self in , because that when a simple bodie , feeleth the softnesse as it were of his fliece , he should not mistrust the Tyrannie of his teethe : That is to saie , of his false construction of Scripture , wherwith he would deuour his saule : So did the Deuill hymself alleadge Scripture vnto Christ , and as oft as any Heretikes aleadge Scripture to vs against the Catholike faith : So oft saieth Vincentius , we maie be out of doubt the Deuill doeth speake vnto vs by their mouthes , and saieth vnto vs euen as he saied vnto Christ Si filius deies , mitte te deorsum , as much to saie , If thou wile bee the sonne of God , and professor of his holy Gospell , cast thy self doune , from the high authoritie and tradition of this Catholike Churche , whom if wee aske againe why we should so doe , then saieth Vincentius , he commeth out with Scriptum est enim : because it is written saieth he , in the holie booke , & from thence thou must learne a newe lesson of me , how to be a right Christian man . To whom we must saie then : Vade Satan non tentabis . &c. Auaunt Sathan , &c. and that with greate feruencie of faith : for more perillous is the temption of such a flatteryng Serpent ( saieth S. Augustine ) then the roaryng of an angrie Lyon , because the one wee flee from with feare , but the other with entising , maie come the nerer to sting vs .

6 The sixt reason most waightie of all is this : because if you will refuse the authoritie of the Churches absolute iudgement , The sixt Reason . vppon the Scriptures true cense , you shall seeme plainly to denie the holy Ghoste to be the Spirite of truthe , whiche vppon the Apostles and all the faithfull was sent doune with visible signes , and with his Church is promised to remaine vnto the worldes ende : by these wordes of our Sauiour , I will aske my Father , and he shall send you an other comforter , to tarie with you for euer , the spirite of truth : And a little after thus . The holy Ghoste the comforter , whom my Father will sende in my name , shall teache you all truthe : Loe the Church is the surest Iudge , and none shure but the Churche , for all men in doubtes of Scripture , because it hath a promise that it shall neuer erre in iudgement , whiche is notably confirmed by the Prophet Esay , saiyng . This is my couenaunt with them saieth our Lorde , my spirite whiche is in thee , and my worde which I haue put in thy mouth shal not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy seede , nor of thy seedes seede , now , nor euer to the worldes ende . O most comfortable promise , that the Spirite of truth shall neuer departe out of the Churches mouth . O fit Iudge appointed to be Iudge of Scripture for our profites , without presumption . Remember then I praie you , what a sottishe opinion this is which is held to the contrarie , that euery priuate man , whom belike you wil imagine to be one of the Church , shall haue good beleue to be his own Iudge in vnderstandyng of Scriptures , as your Craftes men are : and yet that the authoritie of the whole vniuersall Churche , shall not presume to ●ake any iudgement vpon them . Grauntyng this , as you must needes , that the Church , whiche is our Mother ( as the Scripture saieth ) must needes teach all her children , at first to beleeue in God ( seyng faithe must come by hearing ) and also to know the Scripture , and yet that the same Church being the piller and sure staie of touch , shall not be absolute Iudge & imperial Scholemistresse , to teache vs all how to beleue in God , and how to vnderstande the Scripture . For the blindnesse of your hartes , I maie saie as iustly to you , as Sainct Paule saied to the Galathians . O Insensati &c. O ye foolishe fellowes , who hath bewitched you , not to obeye vnto the truthe ? Which euen of Infantes and suckyng babes ( as it were ) is discerued as cleare as the Sunne ? So that you must not disdaine Maister Trippe to be tripped in this matter , for a silie seducer , to maintaine ( as ye doe all ) so grose all opinion , beyng the forrest in deeds , for al suche Foxes , to litter their whelps in . Therefor 〈…〉 to conclude this Assertion : acquite your selues as well as you can , why you maie not all bee iustly suspected , to denie the descendyng of the holie Ghoste vnto the Churche , for as muche as you refuse the Churches sentence in iudgement , with whom the holie Ghoste is promised alwaies to remaine , and in truthe to directe them .

Haec est fides mea quia est Catholica . This is my faith , because it is the Catholique faith . Thomas Pownde .

The Aunswere to Pownde , His sixt Reasons .

TO the six Reasons that you set doune , to proue , that to prouoke to be tryed by the holy Scriptures onely , in the controuersies that maie arise aboute Religion , is no orderly waie : I might in fewe wordes aunswere , thus , The first Reason is fonde , the second is false , the thirde is foolishe , the fowerth is fantasticall , the fift is fradulent , and the sixt is fanaticall .

Thus might your Pamphlet bee aunswered in sixe wordes : as ( before you did reade it , before so many witnesses as it pleased you to call to the hearyng of it ) I told you that I thought it might .

But least you should triumphe , after your manner , and saie , that not beyng able to aunswere your Reasons at large , I shifte you of with shorte sentences : I will bestowe some more tyme ( whiche I could bestowe muche better ) in aunsweryng your rude Reasones : I hope so , that neither you , nor any of your side , shall be able reasonably to replie .

The first Reason .

FIrst you saie , that suche controuersies , maie not bée tried by the holie Scriptures , because thei be mute and dumbe , vttering to vs , from the booke , nothing but onely the wordes , and not the sense , wherein the life ( as it were ) of the Scripture , doeth consist .

Howe fonde this Reason is . I thynke your self should see . For what sence can there bee in woordes , that can not bee vttered by woordes ? Or what wordes can any manne vse in openyng the sense of woordes written , but that the same beeyng sette downe in writyng , maie as well open the cense : as thei might beeyng spoken and not written ? you seeme to imagine , that we would haue the holy Scriptures ( as thei bee written in bookes , & enclosed in coueringes ) to be Iudge of suche matters , as you speake of : for otherwise , how can you call them mute and dumbe ?

The Prophet Ieremie was commaunded to write all the wordes of the Lorde against Iuda and Israell , and all other Nations , in a booke , and to cause the same to bee reade in the hearyng of all the people , and so he did , as appeareth in the .26 . of his Prophesies , that euery manne might bee turned awaie , from their owne moste wicked waies , and so the Lorde might be mercifull to them . After this manner would we haue controuersies iudged by the Scriptures . Not as thei bee written and kepte secret in hookes : but beeyng reuereudly read , wayed , and considered , with the circumstaunces of person , tyme and place , with all other necessarie circumstaunces : so that the Readers , beyng willyng to haue their controuersies ended , dooe submit them selues to that iudgement , that thei shall finde in the Scriptures , so read , waied and considered .

As for your Opinatiue man and wrangler , that you speake of : if he will stande still in his opinion ( as you your self doe ( notwithstandyng that it is made manifest , by the holy Scriptures , that his opinion is not right : he must bee taken for an Hereticke , and after one or twoo warnynges , reiected , beyng subuerted , as one that synneth euen condempned by his owne conscience . Titu. 3.

The seconde Reason .

Your second Reason I doe call false , for that you doe falsely reporte , that the holie Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries . And for that you do falsely affirme , that S. Austen did sharpely reboke Honoratus ▪ for rushyng so boldely into the holie Scriptures , where as he would not be so bolde , as to take vpon him to vnderstand suche a Poet as Terence was without a Maister .

Firste , I would wishe you to weigh well the wordes of S. Paule , written to Timothie . Doe thou ( saieth S. Paule to Timothie ) 2. Tim. 3. continue in those thynges whiche thou hast learned , and are committed vnto thee , knowyng of whom thou hast learned them , and that thou hast known ( euen from thine Infancie ) the holy Scriptures , which are sufficient to instructe thee to saluation , through that faithe whiche is in Christe Iesus . Euery Scripture that was written by diuine inspiration , is profitable to teache , to correct , to reproue , and to instructe in righteousnesse , that the man of God maie be perfectly instructed to euery good worke .

If all Scriptures , bee so full of harde and deepe misteries ( as you haue saied ) then can not any Scripture bee so profitable to teache &c. As Sainct Paule telleth Timothie : That all Scriptures be , neither can the man of GOD bee thereby perfectly instructed to euery good worke .

We reade , Luk. 24. that our Sauiour Christe , did sharply reprehende his two Disciples , as he walked with them towardes Emaus , for that thei were so dull and harde to beleeue , that whiche the Prophetes had so plainly spoken . Ought not Christe ( qd he ) to suffer these thinges , and so to enter into his glorie ? As though he should haue saied : are you so doltishe and blockishe , that you vnderstande not so plaine speeches as the Prophets haue vsed concernyng the sufferynges of Christe ?

And appearyng to them afterwardes , as thei were altogether in Ierusalem : He telleth them , that of necessitie , all muste bee fulfilled , that had beene written concernyng him , either in the lawe of Moyses , in the Prophets , or in the Psalmes . And that thei might vnderstande the Scriptures , he did then open their vnderstandynges : Whereby it appeareth , that it was not the hardnesse and deepenesse of the misteries ( wherewith , as you saie the Scripture is full ) that helde them from the vnderstandyng thereof : but the dulnesse of their owne vnderstandyng , because thei were as yet but carnall : and therefore coulde not perceiue thynges belongyng to the spirite of God , as Sainct Paule hath written . 1. Cor. 2. The naturall man , doeth not perceiue these thynges that doe belong to the spirite of God . Not that we bee of our selues , as of our selues , 2. Cor. 3. sufficient to thinke any thyng , but our sufficiencie is of God . &c.

Now , for that whiche you haue cited , out of Austine , concernyng the reprehendyng of Honoratus : I would gladly knowe of you , what Honoratus it was that you speake of . One there was of that name , to whom Sainct Austine wrote his .120 . Epistle . But that Honoratus was not like to vse any suche speeche to S. Austine . Neither doeth Sainct Austine in that Epistle , vse any suche speeche to hym , as you saie he did . But in the laste ende of the Epistle , Saint Austine sheweth hym self to be of an other mynde , then ( by your reporte ) your Austine seemed to be . For he saieth thus .

Habes librum , & si prolixum , tamen , quantum existimo non superfluum . &c. Thou haste here a Booke ( saieth Sainct Austine ) whiche though it be long : yet , as I thinke , it is not superfluous . But doe thou loue the Ecclesiasticall writinges also , and thou shalte not finde many thynges , which thou shouldest neede to seeke for at my handes . But by reading and ruminating or cuddyng ( if thou doe also purely praie vnto the Lorde , that is the giuer of all good thinges ) thou shalt learne throughly , all those thynges , or vndoubtedly very many of those thinges , that are worth the knowyng , rather by his inspiration , then by any mannes admonition : Although , euen in the same thyng wherein wee doe with right iudgement allowe that man that doth outwardly admonish vs well : what other thing doe we , then testifie that we haue an inwarde light that doeth teache vs , and is our Maister ? Thus farre Austine . Lette your freendes iudge , whether it be likely , that this Austine , and this Honoratus , would vse suche speeches the one to the other , as you reporte yours to haue doen.

One other Honoratus there was , to whom our S. Austine wrote his .161 . Epistle . This man helde with Donatus : and in that Epistle Saint Austine doeth exhorte hym , to render a reason quietly in writing , wherefore the name of the Church should at that time remaine onely among the Donatists .

There was also a thirde , Honoratus , to whom our S. Austine wrote his .179 . Epistle . This man Saint Austine calleth brother and fellowe Bishop , and doeth instruct hym at large in the libertie of fliyng persecution : wherein he vseth not one worde , that maie bee wrested to that meanyng that you haue reported .

But you will saie , there is yet one other , to whome Saint Austine wrote his Booke , De vtilitate credendi .

Suche an Honoratus there was in deede . But when you shall reade that Booke with more indifferent iudgement : you shall not finde , that Austine to bee of your mynde . Not muche before that place that you take holde of , writing of the truth of the Scripture , and noting that we ought to loue the Scripture before wee learne it : he writeth thus . Quicquid est ( mihi crede ) in Scripturis illis , altum & diuinum est . &c. Beleeue me ( saieth Saint Austine ) whatsoeuer thyng is in the Scriptures , the same is deepe and diuine : truthe is in it altogether , and a discipline that is moste meete for the refreshyng and restoryng of myndes : and vndoubtedly , so moderated , that euery manne maie drawe therehence , enough to satisfie him self , if so be that he come to drawe after a deuout and Godly sorte , as true Religion requireth . And immediatly before the place that you seeme to take holde of : he

By that interpretation that you make of the wordes that are written in the sixteene of Mathew : ye maintaine the grosse errour , of buildyng Christ his Churche vpon Peter the man , Aug. de verbis . Domini . ser. 13. and not vpon Christ the Rocke : not withstandyng , that the best of the Catholique Doctors haue written to the contrarie . Yea , and herehence come all your Indulgencies and Pardones , with absolute power for your Pope to doe what he will ▪ without checke or controulement .

I might here take iust occasion , to rehearse all those errors , that haue bene , and are holden by your sorte , and ascribe them all , to that whiche S. Austine speaketh of in the wordes that you cite : that is . That by your sort , the good Scriptures , are not well vnderstanded . But studiyng to be breefe , I passe them ouer .

To proceede in mine Aunswere : you catche holde of S. Peter . And he must needes helpe you to face out your lye . 2. Pet. 3. If S. Peter will haue your fauour , he must needes beare you recorde , that the Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries , as you haue taught S. Austine to saie . But when the place that you cite shal be weighed , with indifferent iudgement : it will be founde that S. Peters meanyng , was not as you take is to be .

Sainct Peter hath written thus . But wee looke for newe heauens , and a newe earth , accordyng to his promise , wherein dwelleth righteousnesse . Wherefore beloued , seeyng that ye looke for suche thinges thee dilligent , that ye maie be founde of hym in peace , without spot , and blamelesse . And suppose , that the long sufferyng of our Lorde , is saluation : euen as our beloued brother Paule ( accordyng to the wisedome giuen vnto hym ) wrote to you , as one that in al his Epistles , speaketh of those thinges , amongste whiche , some thynges are harde to be vnderstanded , whiche thei that bee vnlearned and vnstable doe peruerte , as thei doe also other Scriptures to their owne destruction .

If you reade these wordes of S. Peter in the Greeke tongue ( wherein the Apostle wrote them ) you shall finde that the Relatiue 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , is of the newter gender , and cannot by the rules of Grammer , agree with 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , whiche is of the feminine gender . Wherefore , it must be Englished , thus . In , or amongst which thinges or matters that Paule wrote of , and not , in those Epistles that he wrote : as in your application of Peters woordes , you seeme to vnderstande him to meane . But peraduenture , you haue no good likyng of the Greeke Text , neither of our Latine translations . I will therefore set doune the wordes of S. Peter , euen as I finde them in the translation , that is allowed in the Counsell of Trent : and as thei be written in an old written Bible that I haue in Parchment , written , I knowe not how many hundred yeares past . Thus are thei written in the Bible . Propter quod charissimi , haec expectantes , satagite , immaculati & inuiolati ei inueniri in pace : & domini nostri longanimitatem , salutem arbitremini , sicut & charissimus frater noster Paulus , secundum datam sibi sapientiam , scripsit vobis , sicut & in omnibus epistolis , loquens in eis de hijs , in quibus sunt quaedam difficilia intellectu , quae indocti & instabiles deprauant , sicut & caeteras scripturas , ad suam ipsorum perditionem . And I thinke , that you your selfe would translate them into Englishe , thus . Wherefore , dearely beloued , waityng for these thinges , giue your endeuour to be founde vnto hym in peace , beeyng without spot , and vndefiled : and thinke that the long sufferyng of our Lorde , is saluation , euen as our moste deare brother Paule ( according to the wisedom that is giuen vnto him ) hath written to you , euen as in euery Epistle , speakyng in them of those thinges , amongst whiche are some thinges , that are harde to be vnderstanded , whiche vnlearned and vnstable menne , doe depraue , euen as thei doe other Scriptures , to their owne destruction .

I trust you doe see now , that we neede not that reason , whiche you doe call childishe , and is not indeepe so childishe , but that it hath in all ages been ( and is still ) allowed amongst the learned , for the beste rule in vnderstandyng of places of the Scripture , wherein is any difficultie .

But now you doe begge ( or rather take ) leaue , to pose vs one question furder , to the quicke . And thus you saie . How is it possible , to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures , which is Canonicall Scripture , and which is not ? &c.

You seeme to bee perswaded that this question toucheth to the quicke in deede . For you affirme plainly , that if any Infidell , Hereticke , or Arbeist , shall denie any parte of the olde or newe Testament , or the whole olde and new Testament ( as in tymes past some haue doen. ) &c. We haue no Ankor holde against such , but onely the Reuelation of God to the Churche , by Tradition , which Churche is the piller , and sure staie of truth . &c.

I confesse , that the Church is the Piller and sure staie of truthe , as Sainct Paule writeth . 1. Tim. 3. But that this truth is reuealed to the Churche by Tradition ( as you write ) that I denie . For God hath taught , ( and doth still teach ) the truthe to his Churche , by the worde of truth , and not by Reuelation or Tradition . And that worde of truthe is sufficient , and needeth not that any thyng should bee added to it : either by Reuelation , or by Tradition . Yea ▪ there is an horrible cursse pronounced against all such as shall adde any thyng to in .

The true Catholique Churche , is in deede the Piller and sure staie , whereon , that truthe that is taught by the worde of truthe , doeth staie . For that worde of truthe , is the voyce of her Sheepeheard , and she delighteth in hearyng that voyce : but the voyce of a straunger she can not abyde to heare . The truthe taught by the voyce of her Sheepehearde , she laieth vp in her harte : and all her delight is to lette men see it , in her life and conuersation , that séeing her good lyfe , they may be occasioned therby , to glorifie her spouse Christe , and his and her heauenly Father .

This is that authoritie , that S. Austine sayth , moued him to beléeue the Gospell . And this authoritie caused him to write thus , against that Epistle of Manichaeus , which the Maniches called theyr foundation . Tom. 6. Ego veró Euangelio non crederem , nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas . Surely , I would not beléeue the Gospell , except the authoritie of the Church dyd mooue me thereto .

Not many lines before those words , S. Austine sayth thus to the Maniches . Apud vos , vbi nihil horum est , quod me inuitet ac teneat . &c. That is : Amongst you , where no part of that thing is , which might allure and holde me , there soundeth only a promising of the trueth : which vndoubtedly , if it be shewed foorth so manifestly , that it may not be doubted of : it is to be preferred before all those thinges that doo holde me in the Church .

I pray you ( Maister Pownde ) ponder well these wordes of Austine : and be not afrayde with Austine to yéelde , to the manifest trueth , ( when it shall be manifested to you ) onely because it lacketh the consent of Peoples , and Nations , the authoritie of Myracles , the nourishment of hope , the increase of looue , the establishment of Antiquitie , the holde from Peters seate , the succession of Priests , and the name of Catholique . For S. Augustine sayth : That the manifest trueth must be preferred before all these .

But if you wyll marke it well , you shall finde that the trueth which we holde and teach , and would wishe you and all your sort to embrace , dooth not lacke the chéefest of those thinges that mooued S. Austine first to embrace it . For it is the same , that first gotte credite , by those Myracles that were wrought by Christe and his Apostles . Mark . 16. It was , and is styll nourished by hope : It was , and is styll increased by looue , it is also confirmed by that seate which you call Peters , and hath the succession of Priests , although not in such sort as you allowe of . And last of all , it hath the right name of Catholique .

Thus , I hope , you doo now sée , that you haue not rightly applied , eyther the words of Paule , or of Austine : mynding thereby to prooue , that the Church of Roome , ( being such a Church , as nowe it sheweth it selfe to be ) is the Piller of trueth , and that Catholique Church , whereunto all Christians should and must of necessitie cleaue , if they wyll be saued by Christe .

Your conclusion , wherein you aduise all men to beware of fléeing from the Church , to the iudgement of the Scriptures onely . &c. Was not so aduisedly made , as were séemely to be made , by one that were so well séen in the writings of the Fathers , as you would séeme to be . For ( as I thinke , yea , I am perswaded , that I may safely affirme , ) there is not one of the auncient Fathers , of your minde in that poynt .

Saint Austine , in his Epistle fortie and eight , written to Vincentius , sayth thus . Noli ergò frater , contra diuina tam multa , tam clara , tam indubitata testimonia . &c. Doo not therefore ( Brother ) shewe thy selfe wylling , to gather out of the wrytinges of Bishoppes , reproches against so heauenly , so many , so cleare , and so vndoubted testimonies : whether the same Bishops be on our side , as Hillarius , or of the vnitie it selfe , before the faction of Donatus was separated from it , as Cyprian , and Agripinus : First for that , that kinde of writing must be distinguished , from the authoritie of the Canon , for they are not so read , that testimonie should be taken out of them , that it might not be lawfull for any man , to be of a minde contrarie thereto , if perhappes they shall in any place be of other minde then the trueth requireth . For we are of that number that may not disdayne , to take euen vnto our selfe , this saying of the Apostle . And if ye be of an other minde in any thing , Phil. 3. God wyll reueale the same to you also .

Thus you may sée , that S Austine dooth not allowe the sentence of any man , no nor the sentence of the vnitie it selfe ( which I vnderstand to be a generall Councell ) against the Canonicall Scripture .

The same Saint Austine , wryting to Saint Ierome in his fifteene Epistle , Epist. 15. sayth thus . Ego enim fateor charitati tuae . &c. I confesse ( sayth S. Austine ) I haue learned to giue this reuerende feare and honor , onely to those Bookes of the Scriptures , which nowe are called Canonicall : that I doe firmely beléeue , that none of the Authors of them , haue in wryting erred any thing at all .

By this saying of Saint Austine , it may appeare , that he was of this minde , that there may be errour , euen in the decrées of your generall Councels .

Againe , De Bapt. Libr. 2. Cap. 2. against the Donatistes , Saint Austine wryteth thus . Quis autem nesciat Scripturam canonicam . &c. Who can be ignoraunt ( sayth Saint Austine ) that the holy Scripture , as well of the olde as of the newe Testament , is conteyned within her owne boundes or lymittes : and that the same is so preferred before all the latter wrytings of Bishops , that concerning it , there may be no doubt or controuersie at all , whether any thing that is certainly knowne to be written in it , be true or right . And the writinges of Byshoppes , which haue bene , or be written , after the confirmation of the Canon , may be found faulte with ( if it happen that any thing therein doo swarue from the trueth ) eyther by more wyse spéeche of any other , that is more expert in that matter : or by the more graue Authoritie of other Bishoppes , or the wisedome of menne better learned , or by Councels , yea , and that the Councels them selues , which are holden in particular Regions , or Prouinces , must without any doubting , giue place , to the authoritie of full Councels , which are made of the vniuersall Christian world . Yea , & that the full or generall Councels that are first holden , may be amended by them that are holden afterwardes , when by any experience of thinges , that thing that before was shut , is made open , and that thing which lay hyd , is made knowne . And this may be done , without any hautinesse of sacrilegious pride , without any swelling throte of arrogancie , without any contencion of spightfull enuie , with holie humilitie , with Catholique peace , and with Christian Charitie . Thus farre Austine .

Nowe I thinke you wyll confesse , that your Catholique Church may erre : or else that S. Austine , one of the Doctors of that Church dyd erre . For he sayth , that the latter generall Councels , may amend the former . He sayth also , that there may be no doubt or controuersie about the trueth of any thing , that is knowne to be written in the Canonicall Scriptures . Therefore , blame vs not , though we flée from the iudgement of the Church to the scriptures , which can neuer deceaue vs .

And as touching that inconuenience that you doo put vs in minde of , which is the denying of the Scriptures by Atheists : I pray you let me propone one question to you , and so pose you as night to the quicke as you haue posed vs . What if your Church should vtterly be denied to be the Church of Christe ? Or what if those Atheists that be in Englande , or else where , should denie that Christe hath any Church at all : or that there is , or hath been , any such Christe as we beléeue in ? Might not those Infidels ( thinke you ) laugh you to scorne , for robbing your selues of your owne defence , Ephe. 6. which is the worde of God , which Saint Paule calleth the sworde of the Spirite ?

But now you wyll returne to your purpose . If conference of one Scripture with an other , might giue lyght enough to all men : Howe happeneth it , that all sectes vsing that conference , the sectaries can neuer agrée in theyr opinions . &c. To this , not I , but S. Paule shall giue you aunswer . 1. Cor. 11. Oportet haereses esse , vt hij qui probati sunt , manifesti sint in vobis . It can not be auoyded , but that there must be heresies , or sectes , that they which be tryed , may be made knowne amongst you . Let S. Paule defend his owne assertion , as he can . I wyll betake me to that vttermost shift that you say we haue , notwithstanding , that you call it a weake one .

Saint Austine sayth , that the Scriptures must be read , by such as doo vndoubtedly beléeue , that they are most true witnesses . And these are his wordes . Agant orando , De Trini . Libr. 15. & quaerendo , & bene viuendo vt intelligant . &c. That is : They must labour by prayer , and by séeking , and by lyuing well : that they may vnderstand , that is , that they may sée in minde , ( as much as may be séene ) that which they doo holde by faith . Iam. 1. And S. Iames sayth . If any man lacke wisedome , let him aske it of God . &c.

Thus may you sée , that both S. Iames , and S. Austine doo allowe of this shift , which you doo accoumpt to be so weake , and such intollerable pride . Yea , S. Austine addeth these wordes . Quis hoc prohibeat ? imó veró , ad hoc quis non hortetur ? Who can forbid this ? Yea rather , who wyll not exhort héerunto ? doo you therfore accoumpt of it as you luste : we wyll styll vse it , as the ready way to attayne to that knowledge , that is necessarie for vs .

As for the reuealing of the trueth to the vniuersall Church , for which Christe him selfe dyd praye : we confesse that according to his promise , Christe hath reuealed to them altogether , and to euery perticular member amongst them , as much as he knewe to be méete to be reuealed to them . And so be the wordes of his promise . Ille vos docebit omnia , & suggeret vobis omnia , quae cumque dixero vobis . He shall teach you all thinges , and he shall put you in minde of all those thinges , that I shall speake vnto you .

The pleasaunt pastime that you make , with the course that we take , in the searche and studie of the Scriptures , I passe ouer : for I knowe , that he onely to whome we pray , dooth know how faithfully we pray , and whether with teares or without . To him we shall stande , or fall ▪ Iudge not you an other mans Seruaunt .

But you say , we must néedes be all deceyued , so long as we dwell in dissention , and are not in errours only , but also , one of vs contrarie to an other . And who now must be Iudge , to trie the Spirites , whether they be of God , or no ? Onely the Church , ( say you ) or else they shall not be tryed at all . &c.

For the first , Saint Paule hath tolde you , that of necessitie , sectes must be amongst men , 1. Cor. 11. and euen amongst such as be of the Church of Christe : And that because , such as be allowed or tryed , can not otherwise be knowen . And as touching the other poynt , Saint Austine sayth thus . Contra insidiosos errores , Deus voluit ponere firmamentum in scripturis , In. 1. Iohn Epist. Cap. 2. contra quas , nullus audet loqui ▪ qui quoquo modo se vult videri Christianum . It was the pleasure of God , to set in the scriptures , a sure Bulwarke against deceytfull errours : against which Scriptures , no man , that is any way wylling to séeme to be a Christian , dare be bolde to speake .

As golde by the toutchstone , so are the spirites tryed by the Scripture . And euerie one that is skilfull in the scriptures , that is , that can by conferring of one scripture with an other . finde out the meaning of the holy ghost in the scriptures : may be as bolde to vse the scripture in the tryall of spirites , as the Goldsmith may be , to vse the toutchstone , in the tryall of mettalles . And if ye thinke that the conference of one Scripture with an other , be not the surest way to attaine to the true meaning of the Scriptures , looke Saint Austine , De Doctrina Christiana . Lib. 3. Cap. 26. And thus much for aunswer to your second Reason , which I haue called False .

The third Reason .

THe thirde Reason that mooueth you to thinke , that the Scriptures are to be iudged by the Church : is , for that S. Peter hath written , 2. Pet. 1. That no Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation . &c.

This Reason I haue called Foolishe , for that foolishly you doo rushe into the Epistle of Saint Peter , and report his wordes otherwise then he wrote them : and then you your selfe doo make a priuate interpretation of them , contrarie to the decrée made in the Councell of Trent : whereof you would séeme to make greatest accoumpt .

The words of Saint Peter , as they doo stande in that translation that the Councell of Trent hath allowed , are these . Hoc primùm intelligentes , quód omnis prophaetia scripturae , propria interpretatione non fit . Vnderstanding this thing first : that no prophesie of the scripture , is made by priuate interpretation . I meruayle howe you ( being such a Catholique as you professe to be ) durst set downe Peters wordes , otherwise then you finde them in that translation . For I am sure , you are not ignoraunt of the penaltie that the Councell hath Sessio . 4. appointed for such doinges .

But this is not all your misdemeanour in this behalfe . For you make a priuate Interpretation , contrarie , bothe to the decrée , and also to this thyrde Reason of yours . For , to make a priuate interpretation , is to make such a one as differeth from the auncient wryters , and is not allowed of the Church . But where can you shewe me any auncient writer , that hath interpreted those wordes of Peter , as you doo ?

Saint Austine medleth not with them . No more dooth S. Ierome , S. Ambrose , S. Gregorie , nor Chrysostome , nor any other of that tyme , that I haue séene , or can heare of .

Nicholaus Lyranus , writing vpon these wordes of S. Peter , sayth that the meaning of S. Peter , was to teach : that no propheticall Scripture hath begynning in , or dooth spring out of humane sense , or mannes meaning . For thus he wryteth . Propria interpretatione non fit , id est , Lyranus in . 2. Epi. Peter . non fit sensu humano : ideo subditur . Non enim voluntate humana allata est aliquando prophetia , sed spiritu sancto inspirati . &c. It is not made ( sayth he ) by any mans owne interpretation ( that is to say ) it is not made by humane sense : and therefore , this saying is set immediatly after . Prophecie hath not at any tyme been brought in , by mans wyll : but men inspired with the holy Ghost . &c.

I thinke your Fathers of the Councell of Trent , will allowe Lyranus for a Catholique wryter : wherefore , I thinke also that they wyll not dispense with you , for dissenting from him , in the interpreting of S. Peters wordes .

But nowe , if ye wyll giue me leaue , I wyll tell you what I thinke to be the meaning of S. Peter in these words . First I thinke , that you doo know , that S. Peter wrote in Greeke . And then you must knowe , that the wordes which in the allowed translation , are Priuata interpretatione : are in the Greeke , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . And they that haue any skyll in the Greeke tongue , will tell you that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 dooth signifie Impulsus , as well as Interpretatio . And may we not translate the wordes of S. Peter thus ? Omnis prophetica scriptura , non fit proprij impulsus . Euerie propheticall Scripture , is not made of , or by priuate , or proper impulsion . Or to translate it more English lyke : No propheticall Scripture is made of , or by priuate or proper impulsion .

It séemeth to me , that bothe the wordes that goe before , and also the wordes that followe , doo enforce this to be the meaning of Saint Peter . For he sayth thus . We haue a firme and sure propheticall spéeche : and you doo well in that you doo giue good héede thereto , as vnto a Candle that appeareth in a darke place , vntyl the day may waxe cleare , and the day starre may aryse in your heartes . But yet so , that you doo first knowe , that no propheticall Scripture , is made by priuate or proper impulsion . For prophesie hath not at any tyme bene brought vnto vs by the wyll of men , but the holy men of God haue spoken , as by the spirite of God , they haue bene driuen , or vehementlie mooued to speake .

Let your fréendes consider of this , and tell you whether this may be allowed for Catholique or not . I do● not write this , as one that doo not thinke that saying of yours ( No Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation ) to be true : or as one that dooth allowe the rashnesse of such as wyll rushe into the Scriptures , without such reuerance as is séemely , and take vppon them to make interpretations after their owne fantasies . I know that all that we can doo , and all the helpes that we can haue , are lyttle enough , and therefore I thinke it méete , for all men , to follow the rules that S. Austine prescribeth , writing , De Doctrina Christiana . And thus much may suffise to be sayde , to your thirde Reason , which by good Reason , and for iust cause ( as I thinke ) I haue called Foolishe .

The fowrth Reason .

YOur fowrth Reason is , for that by appealing to the Scripture , we seeme ( as you say ) to giue men lybertie to denie all vnwritten verities , which we haue receyued of the Church , eyther by expresse definition , in generall Councell , or but by tradition . &c. And first , you delyght your selfe with a frumpe at Crowley and his fellowes , that wil laugh ( as you say ) so soone as they heare of vnwritten verities . And it séemeth that you perswade your selfe that you haue done it verie finely . And therfore I haue named this Reason of yours Fantasticall .

But yet a little to temper our follie ( you will not say our pride ) you will aske vs how we prooue the Trinity of persons , and the vnitie of substaunce in the Godhead , by expresse Scriptures . &c.

Nine verities we must prooue by Scriptures , which are not ( as you say ) written in the Canonicall Scriptures . Well , to staie your wisdome , I wyll ( by Gods mercifull assistance ) doo what may be done in this matter . And I hope to prooue as many of them , as be necessary to be knowne to saluation : euen by plaine scriptures . And the rest . I hope I shall be able to prooue , in such sort as the Fathers haue prooued them , against such as haue at any tyme denied them . And first , I must prooue , that in the Godhead , there be thrée distinct persons , and but one substaunce . This and the second , that is , that in Christe there be two distinct Natures , and but one person : I thinke I shall easily prooue .

The Prophet Dauid , hath written thus . Psal. 110. The Lord hath sayde to my Lord , Psal. 110. syt thou at my right hande , tyll I make thine enimies thy foote stoole . The Lord shall send out of Sion , the Scepter of thy power , beare thou rule in the myddes amongst his enimies . Thus much in the two first verses . And in the fift verse he sayth thus . The Lord at thy right hand , hath wounded euen Kinges in the day of his wrath .

That the Prophet Dauid , dyd in these verses of this Psalme , speake of the diuine Maiestie , and of the second person Christ : it is manifested by that which S. Mathew writeth in his twenty and two Chapt. Vos quid dicitis de Christo ? cuius filius est ? What doo you say of Christe ? whose sonne is he ? &c.

The Lord . That is God the Father . Sayde to my Lord . That is to God the Sonne . &c. Héere haue we two distincted persons , the Father , and the Sonne . And in the seconde verse , he sayth : The Lorde shall send out of Sion , the Scepter of thy power , which is , the worde of the Gospell . And this Scepter was sent out of Sion by the holy Ghoste , in the feast of Pentecoste : when he rested vppon the Apostles , in the shape of 〈…〉 rie tongues deuided . So that héere we haue the thyrde person , and so consequently thrée distinct persons . The Father sayth to the sonne , sit thou at my right hand . &c. And the holy Ghost sendeth the word , which is the scepter of the power of the Sonne out of Sion . And in the fift verse he sayth . The Lorde at thy right hand , shall wounde euen Kinges in the day of his wrath . Thus speaketh the diuine Maiestie : God the Father , God the Sonne , God the holy Ghoste , one diuine Maiestie : to the Church of Christe héere milytaunt vppon earth . So haue we the vnitie , of the thrée distinct persons in the deitie . And Christe him selfe , expounding the first verse of this Psalme to be spoken of him selfe , dooth a warrant vs , that he béeing Dauids sonne after the flesh , is neuerthelesse Dauids Lorde , and therefore God . And so bothe God and man , and yet but one Christe . For be sayth : What say you of Christe ? Math. 22. Whose sonne is hée ?

This might suffise to shewe , that these two verities are not vnwritten , as you do terme them . But to satisfie you to the full : looke what S. Mathew hath written , in the last Chapter , & last words of his Gospell : reporting the wordes of our Sauiour , who sayth thus there . All power bothe in heauen and earth , is giuen vnto me . Goe your way therfore , and teach all Nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father , of the Sonne , and of the holy Ghost : teaching them to obserue all those thinges that I haue commaunded you . And behold , I am with you euerie day , euen to the ende of the world .

Héere the man Christe , receyueth from the diuine Maiestie , all power , bothe in heauen and in earth : and by that power he giueth commission to his Apostles to goe and teache all Nations , and to Baptize them in the name of the Father , of the Sonne , & of the holy Ghost . So that héere againe we haue thrée distinct personnes : and their vnitie , in giuing to Christe all power in heauen and in earth : and the two natures , in one person Christe , in that he receyueth all power in heauen and in earth , and giueth commission to his Apostles to teach and baptize .

If this will not satisfie you : I refer you to that which S. Austine hath written in his booke , Tom. 3. De Trinit. There shall you finde proofe vpon proofe , that these verities are not vnwritten .

The thirde veritie that you say is vnwritten , is that God the Father was neuer begotten . It séemeth that you haue not read S. Peaules Epistle to the Ephesians : for if you had , you must néedes haue séene , that this is no vnwritten veritie . Saint Paule writeth thus . Huius rei gratia flecto genua mea , ad patrem Domini nostri Iesu Christi , ex quo omnis paternitas in coelo & in terra nominatur . Ephe. 3. For this cause ( sayth S. Paule ) doo I bowe my knées , to the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe , of whome all Fatherhoode , bothe in heauen and in earth dooth take name . I trow you will not now say that this veritie is vnwritten .

The fowrth veritie , that you say is not written , is that the holy Ghost procéedeth bothe from the Father and the Sonne , as from one fountayne . If you would reade that which S. Iohn hath written : I thinke you would not say that this veritie is vnwritten . Iohn . 15. & . 20. Cum venerit paracletus , quem ego mittam vobis a patre , spiritum veritatis , qui a patre procedit : ille testimonium perhibebit de me . &c. When the Comforter shall come , whome I wyll sende vnto you from the Father , euen the spirit of trueth , that procéedeth from the Father : he shall testifie of me . &c. And in the twentie Chapter he sayth . Haec cum dixisset , insufflauit , & dixit eis : Accipite spiritum sanctum . When he had spoken these wordes , he breathed vpon them , and he sayde vnto them : Receyue ye the holy Ghost . &c. If breath may be sayde , to procéede from the person that breatheth : then may we say , that it is written , that the holy Ghost procéedeth from Christe , the sonne of God , euen as it is written , that he procéedeth from God the Father .

I wyll be bolde therefore , without any more a doo , to conclude , that these fowre verities , are not vnwritten , but written in déede in the Canonicall Scriptures .

The fift vnwritten verity , is the descending of Christ into hell : this you must haue prooued by plaine wordes of Scripture , the lacke whereof ( as you say ) hath caused many , nowe a dayes to deny it flatly . I am none of them that doo so deny it . But that he descended in such manner , as your Catholiques haue taught , and as it hath bene set foorth in their Stage Playes , and in their payntinges in glasse windowes , & else where , I thinke would be as harde a thing for you to prooue , any way , as for vs to prooue by plaine wordes of Scripture , that he dyd in déede descende into hell .

I thinke you wyll graunt that the spéeche vsed in the Créede , concerning Christes descending into hell , is figuratiue , vsed by the figure Synecdoche : wherein the whole is vnderstanded in the parte . For you wyll not ( I thinke ) say , that Christes body went into hell : For that was buried and rested in the graue , tyll the tyme that it was restored to lyfe againe . Well . Then it was his spirite , that descended into hell● and not his body and spirite bothe . This being graunted ( as I think , you wyll not deny to doo ) we shall easily prooue , euen by plaine wordes of the Scripture , that Christe descended into hell .

Saint Peter , in the thirde Chapter of his first Epistle , 1. Pet. 3. sayth thus . Quia et Christus semel pro peccatis mortuus est , iustus pro iniustis : vt nos offeret Deo , mortificatus quidem carne , viuificatus autem spiritu . In quo & his qui in carcere erant spiritibus veniens , praedicauit . &c. For euen Christe ( sayth Saint Peter ) dyd once dye for sinnes , the iuste for the vniuste , that he might offer vs vnto God : mortified in the fleshe indéede , but quickened in the spirite , in which spirite , comming to those spirites that were in prison : he dyd preach vnto them . Nowe , I thinke you wyll say , that I haue prooued by plaine words of Scripture , that Christe descended into hell .

But howe great a matter were it , If this might not be prooued by any playne Scripture : séeing the Nicene Créede ( vsed in your Masse ) maketh no mencion of it .

And Damasus , that was Bishop of Rome . 360. yéeres alter Christes ascencion , when Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour , hath in his Créede no worde of it . And yet he concludeth his Creede with these wordes . Haec lege , Ieroni . Tom. 4. haec crede , haec retine , huic fidei animam tuam subiuga : & vitam consequeris & premium a Christo . That is : Reade these wordes , beléeue them , holde them faste , yoake thy soule to this Faith : and thou shalt obtayne of Christe , bothe life and reward .

I note this , because I sée that you shoote at this marke . To binde vs , eyther to prooue all your vnwritten verities by Scripture : or else , for lacke of such proofe , to beleeue ( as true ) whatsoeuer your Catholique Church shall allowe for trueth , although the same be neuer so vnnecessarie to be prooued , or receyued for trueth .

Your sixt vnwritten veritie , is the custome of Baptizinge Infauntes . For this , I néede not to wryte much . Mark . 10. Our Sauiour Christe hath sayde : Suffer little Chyldren to come to me , and forbidde them not : For to such dooth the kingdome of God belong . And Saint Paule sayth : That the Children of beléeuing Parents , are holy . 1. Cor. 7. Therefore they are not to be holden from Baptisme : more then the Iewes children from Circumcision .

Your other thrée whyes are scarce worthy the aunswering . Why should we kéepe the Sunday now at all ▪ and not the Saturday ? Why should we not abstaine now styll , like Iewes , from strangled meates , as the Apostles decreed ? And why may not any Heretike , deny all the thrée Créedes . &c.

The first of these whyes , shall be aunswered with an other why . Mark . a. As why may not the Church of Christians , being Lordes of the Sabaoth , chuse for their Sabaoth , one daye in seuen , euen that daye , the obseruing whereof , they shall sée to serue best for theyr owne edification ? And why did the Apostles ( as it maye be gathered , by that which Saint Iohn hath written in his Reuelation ) Apoc. 1. chuse the first daye of the wéeke to be theyr Sabaoth , and not the laste ? And why doo you not remember that Saint Paule dooth number the Sabaoth amongst such indifferent things , as are Meates and Drinckes , Collo. 2. Festiuall dayes , and new Moones : which were but shadowes of thinges to come ? &c.

And to your second why , I say that the Apostles saw , that it was necessarie for the tyme , to forbydde those Christians , that then lately had bene Heathen men : to séede vpon strangled or blood . And néeded not to abrogate it afterwarde , Acts. 15. when they were further instructed , and knew how to vse the Christian lybertie without offence . A man might meruayle , why any wise man , would mooue such a why as this .

Your thirde , & last why , may be fully aunswered with these wordes . Because there is no thing in those thrée Créedes : that may not easily be prooued by the Scriptures . And thus are all your whyes aunswered .

But , doo you not marke , howe these bedlem Catholiques , would shake the foundation of our Christian fayth : by bynding vs to beléeue , that Christes Catholique Church hath set foorth ( as infallibly true ) and to be beléeued vnder paine of dampnation ) three Créedes , the Articles whereof , they are not able to prooue by the Scriptures ? doo not these blinde guides ( thinke you ) leade vs a trym daunce , towardes shameles error and ignorauuce ? And thus much to your fowrth Reason , which for good cause I haue called , Fantasticall . Bothe , for that it séemeth that you perswade your ●elwfe , that you handle your selfe verie finely , in all that you write therein : and also , for that you haue vttered nothing therein , that may not well séeme to spring out of a fantasticall head .

The fift Reason .

YOur fift Reason , I haue called Fradulent , because you doo therein compare the lawes and Scriptures of God , to the lawes of men , made for ciuill pollicie and gouernment . And the Iudges & gouernors in ciuill pollicie , to the Ecclesiastical ministers , & gouernours of the Church of Christ , in matters of faith . This is fraudulently , to bring the holy Scriptures ( which of right are the toutchstone , for all mennes iudgements to be tryed by ) to be vnder the iudgement of some one man , as your Pope ▪ ( who challengeth authoritie , aboue the generall Councels ) or of that number of men that shal be gathered together in a generall Councell ( which doo challenge authoritie aboue the Pope . ) But God that is Author of all perfection , and dooth dispose euery thing in a swéet and decent order : hath prouided much better for his Catholique Church , héere millitaunt on earth , then that it should be driuen to séeke for resolution of doubts , at the bandes of such Iudges as may erre , as your Pope and generall Councels haue and may doo .

The Father of lyghts , the giuer of all good gyftes , in whome there is no chaunge or shewe of variablenesse . The Spirite of trueth , that can neyther deceyue , nor be deceyued : is ready at hand with euery one , that in humilitie of minde craueth wisedome , and wyll not suffer any such , long to be in doubt of any thing , the knowledge whereof is necessarie to saluation . If you ( sayth our sauiour ) which be naught , doo know how to giue good gifts to your children . How much more shall your heauenly Father , Luk. 11. giue the holy spirit , to them that aske it of him ? Gods chyldren may be bolde ( in such cases as I haue spoken of ) to craue Gods spirite , and assure themselues ▪ to receyue it at his handes . 1. Pet. 5. But the proude and hauty minded , shal be as sure to finde God theyr enimie .

This Iudge is alwayes ready in the scriptures , to open the vnderstandings of as many as doo resort thether ( with humilitie of minde ) séeking there to be resolued of theyr necessarie doubts .

That both your Popes , & generall Councels haue erred ( & therfore may erre ) I wil by Gods help plainly proue .

First , if it were possible to perswade you , that to make a decrée directly , contrarie to the expresse commaundement of God , is an error : then it should be an easie matter to cause you to confesse , that bothe a Pope , and a generall Councell haue erred .

For , the sixt generall Councell , holden at Constantinople , where .289 . Bishops were gathered together : it was amongst other thinges decréede , that holy Images should be had in Churches , and that the same should be with great reuerence worshipped . Tom. 1. And this Councell was holden when the first Agatho was Pope , and this decrée was allowed by him . Disti . 16. And afterward by Adrian the first Pope of that name .

So that one generall Councell , and two Popes , haue erred in one decrée , made against , and directly contrary to Gods commaundement . Thou shall not make to thy s●l●e any grauen Image . &c.

Iohn ths . An. 956. Vorat . Plat. 12. of that name , behaued him selfe so well in his nine yéeres gouernment : that one Historian calleth him , Sceleratum virum . A man giuen ouer to all wickednesse . And an other calleth him . Monstrum hominis . A Monster amongst men . And at the last he was slaine , being taken in adulterie .

But peraduenture you wyll say : these faults procéede of humane infirmitie . But what wyll you then say to Syluester the seconde , Plat. Volat. that gaue him selfe to the Diuell , that he might obtaine the Popedome , which he obtayned in déede , and dyd enioy it fowre yéeres .

Benedictus the ninthe , lyued so wickedly , governing the Church fiftéene yéeres : that one Historian sayth , he was , Volat. Vir plane probrosus & infamis , that is : A man altogether worthy of reproches , or euyll reportes , and infamous : And an other sayth : that after his death , hée was séene in an horrible shape , Plat. and that be sayde thus . Iusto Dei iudicio damnatus sum , quia fine Lege vixi . I am dampned , euen by the iuste iudgement of GOD : because I lyued without lawe .

If all this wyll not suffise you , consider I pray you ▪ the Councell of Basill : holden in the yere .1431 . And Pope Eugenius , that in those dayes ruled the Church .16 yéeres . This Engenius dyd once allowe the decrées of that Councell : And afterward he did disallow the same . Whereby , it is manifest that he erred , either in the first or in the last . And if the Popes authorite be aboue the Councell : then that Councell dyd erre in deposing that Pope . And if the Councell be aboue the Pope : then did that Pope erre in excomunicating that Councell .

If you wyll take paines in reading the Histories ; you shall finde amongst the Popes , the Saduces errour , the Arrians errour , the Pellagians errour mainteyned . Yea you shall finde , and we doo sée manifestly , that at this day , your whole Church dooth mainteyne the heresie of the Anthropomorphits . For you haue in all your Churches , the Image of God the Father : resembling an olde man with gray haires , as though tyme had now made him olde , as it dooth all creatures .

But when your Church had thrée Popes at one time , Iohn the .23 . Gregorie the .12 . and Benedict the .13 . To which of these would you haue sent vs , for resolution of our doubtes ▪ Yea , and when your Church was two yéeres together , without eyther Pope or generall Councell : whether would you haue wished vs , to leaue the Iudgement in matters of Church controuersies , at that tyme ? I hope you wyll no longer wishe vs to leaue the Scripture that neuer did , nor shall fayle vs , and depend vpon such Iudges as these , that haue so often failed , and as yet , were neuer full agréed .

As for your comparison that you make betwixt the Churches and worldly kingdomes : it is not woorth a Walnut . And your similitude of a wyse Burgesse in Parliament : we weigh not . We knowe , and confesse , that mens lawes are not , neither can be made so plaine or perfect , but that it is necessary , that there be Iudges that may haue authoritie to discide those controuersies that may arise by occasion of sinister construing of the meaning of the words of the lawe , or by occasion of the darknesse of the same . But where finde you any such darknesse , or imperfection , Psal. 119. in the Scriptures of God ? Dooth not Dauid say : Lucerna pedibus meis verbum tuum , & lumen semitis meis . Thy worde ( sayth Dauid ) is a Lanterne to my féete , and a lyght to my pathes .

Take héede that you be not one of them that Esay speaketh of . Esai . 5. That doe call lyght darknesse , and darknesse lyght . &c.

I doo graunt , that there may some question arise amongst men , about the understanding of some places of Scripture : but this ryseth not of the darknesse that is in the scriptures , but of that darknesse that is in mans vnderstanding . Which till it be opened by the mercifull goodnesse of God : 1. Cor. 2. cannot perceyue those thinges that doo belong to the spirite of God .

And we doo thinke it necessarie , that there be good , and learned men chosen , & put in authoritie in the Church , such as may ( when néede is ) call together the most graue , wyse , and godlie learned persons , in the feare of God , to delyberate for the good gouernment of the Church , and to take order , that all thinges in the Church , may be done to the edification of the same , according to the rule of S. Paule . 1. Cor. 14. And if any proude or froward person , or any simple or ignoraunt person , doo mooue any question : or his , or theyr misdemeanour , doo cause any question to be mooued , or any doubt to aryse , about the true meaning of any part of the Scripture : We thinke it méete , that in these cases , those places of Scripture be reuerendly weighed , by those , wyse , learned , graue , & godlie men , so called together in the feare of God . And that the persons so in doubt , be by them certified , of the true meaning of those places . And that ( if they will not yéeld to that interpretation that shall be made by those men , and prooued by due circumstances , & conference of those places with other , to be the verie meaning of the holie Ghost in those places ) then we holde those men for Heretiques , and doo iudge them worthy to be excommunicated .

Thus ( if you wyll ) you may sée , that we are some thing wiser then your Burgesse in Parliament : and not so worthy to be laughed to scorne as he : Although we doo not make these men Iudges of the scripture : but we doo put them in trust to search the Scriptures , that both they and we may submit our selues , to that iudgement , which they , by theyr reuerende searching , shall finde in the Scriptures . As for the fortie places of Scripture that the Arrians brought , for the defence of theyr horrible Heresie : we are able enough ( by the help of God ) to set foorth plainly in theyr true meaning , and to withstand the Arrians ( without the helpe of our Catholique Church . ) Notwithstanding the fortie places of Scripture , that they bring more then we can bring for the trueth .

And we say , as S. Austine sayth : that the Scriptures to mysse vnderstanded , and mysse applied , are the Heretiques bowe , to shoote out theyr owne venemous arrowes . And as Vincentius sayth : They are the shéepes cloathing , which the Woolfe dooth shrowde her selfe in in &c.

Yea , and we confesse , that the Diuell him selfe , dyd alleadge scripture against our sauiour Christe , and dyd applie it as rightlie as Bonifacius the eight did , when after he had one day shewed him self in his Pontificalibus , that is , Luke . 22. his Popely attyre , and the next day in the robes of an Emperour : he sayd thus . Ecce duo gladij hic . Beholde , heere are two swordes .

Another of your Popes , setting his foote vppon the necke of Fredericus , the Emperour , sayd Super Aspidem & Basiliscum ambulabis , Psal. 91. Alexan. 3. An. 1174. & conculcabis Leonem & Draconem . Upon the Aspe and Basiliske , shalt thou walke , and vpon the Lyon and Dragon shalt thou treade . And surely , as often as these wresters of the Scriptures , doo speake vnto vs , the Diuell dooth ( as Vincentius sayth ) speake by theyr mouthes . &c.

But héere I leaue your Vincentius and you together , tyll at some more leysure . I may reade him ouer . I can not thinke that hée dooth handle that place of Mathewe , so grosely , Math. 4. as you would make vs beléeue that he dooth . But though he doo , the matter is not great . For there is none that hath any sence or féeling , in the vnderstanding of the Scriptures : but the same may easily sée , that when our sauiour Christe sayde . Non tentabis Dominum Deum tuum : Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God : He had a farre other meaning , then that which you woulde make vs beléeue that Vincentius dooth gather of these wordes . Yea , Athens I dyd first write this aunswer , I haue read ouer Vincentius , and haue founde that you doo belye him .

But as one mistrusting the authoritie of your Vincentius : you clap in the necke of it , one sentence of S. Austine : but you tell vs not where we shall finde it . But if those wordes be Austines ( as it may be that they are ) they wyll , and doo serue much better against you and your sort : then they can against vs .

And thus much to your fift Reason : which I haue called Fraudulent , for the cause afore mencioned .

¶ The ●ixt Reason .

YOur sixt and last Reason , most weyghtie of all , is this : Because , if we wyll refuse the authoritie , of the Churches absolute iudgement vppon the scriptures true sence : We shall séeme plainely to deny the holy Ghost to be the spirite of trueth . &c. This Reason I haue called Fanaticall . For that in making so great an accoumpt of this Reason : you séeme not to be in your right wittes . What bedlem would abuse the wordes written in the fowretéene of Iohn as you doo : to prooue , that because our Sauiour Christe dyd praye for , and obtayne , and dyd giue the holy Ghost , the spirite of trueth , to his holy Apostles , and dyd promise that the same should remayne with them for euer , and instruct them in all trueth : therfore the same holy Ghost must néedes be , and remayne styll in that Church , which agréeeth with the Church of the Apostles onely in name , and is no more lyke the Apostles Church in doctrine and manners , then blacke is lyke to whyte , and God is lyke the Diuell .

The Wise man sayth , Sap. 4. that Wisedome wyll not enter into a malicious soule : neyther wyll she dwell in a body that is subiect to sinnes . For the holy spirite of Wisedome , flyeth from deceite . &c. And shall we thinke that the holy Spirite of trueth hath bene , and wyll be styll amongst such a rabble of Popes , Cardinalles , and other Catholiques , as your owne Histories make mencion of , that haue ( besides theyr beastly lyfe ) made decrées directlie , contrarie to Gods commaundements ? Yea , shall we thinke that the Spirite of Christe , dwelleth amongst those Catholiques , that at this day doo in the twentie and fiue Session of the Councell of Trent , pronounce all such accurssed , Tom. 4. as doo shewe them selues , eyther by doctrine or otherwise , to mislyke with the hauing of Images in Churches : seeing the same is dyrectly contrarie to the second commaundement of God ? Shall we thinke that the holy spirite of God , dyd guide those your Catholique Fathers , when they dyd in the same Session , blanche the counterfeyting of Gods Maiestie by an Image ?

And thinke you that Esay the Prophet , if he were now lyuing , Esai . 59. would allowe your applying of his wordes to such Catholiques , and to theyr doinges : séeing the same Prophete dooth so earnestly speake against the making of Images , Esai . 44. scorning bothe them and theyr makers , and plainly affyrming that they be good for nothing .

The Scribes , the Pharisies , the high Priestes , and Doctors of the lawe : might as well haue mainteyned , theyr corrupt Doctrine and Traditions against Christ and his Apostles ( euen by those words of Esay , that you applie for your purpose ) as you may now by the same , mayntaine all the corrupt Doctrines and Traditions of your Catholiques . For they dyd then perswade them selues ( as you doo now ) that the promise was made to them , & could not but be perfourmed to them . And that therfore Christe and his fauters , were Scismatiks and méete to be excommunicated , as by them they were , in déede , and as by you , we be now .

But to our great and vnspeakable comfort : our sauiour Christe hath foretolde vs of this , saying . These wordes haue I spoken vnto you , that you should not be offended . Iohn . 16. They wyll excommunicate you , and the time will come , wherin whosoeuer shall hyll you , will think that he dooth God good seruice .

And that promise also , that you would s●me to reioyce so much in●ia in déede as confortable to vs , as you would haue men thinke that it is to you .

We knowe that the Spirite of trueth departeth not from Christe in his members the Church , the true and vnfeyned Catholique Church . Neyther doo the wordes that the heauenly Father put into the mouth of Christ , his onely begotten Sonne , depart out of his mouth , the true Catholique Church : and yet dare not we make that Church ▪ Iudge of that worde . For they were not put into her mouth to that ende , that shée should iudge them : but that shée should in all her doinges , be iudged tryed , and directed by them .

As sottishe as you say , our opinion is : we are so farre from holding , that euerie priuate man , may haue leaue to be his owne Iudge in vnderstanding the Scripture : that we doo not graunt it to the best learned , but doo leaue it to him , that béeing ( with humilitie of minde ) sought in the Scriptures , wyll be found there , yea , euen by Crafts men , such as was Peter , and his fellow fisher men . For he respecteth not mens persons , nor Occupations . And vnto them that so séeke him there ( whether they be many or fewe ) he wyll open the sence of vnderstading , that they may vnderstand , as much as he knoweth to be méete for them to vnderstand . And such as haue that humble spirit , wyll not search for , nor shewe them selues destrous to knowe , any more .

Well , now you conclude , vpon that which you say we must néedes graunt , that is , that the Church is our mother , as Scripture sayth . Well , I am glad that you are now become a Scripture man . But I pray you , where is that Scripture written , that sayth , that your Catholique Church is our mother ? It wyll be harde for you to finde it .

I wryte not this , as one that would deny the Church that is the Spowse of Christe , to be the mother of Christians , in that sence that she is the Spowse of Christe : But I write thus , to let you sée , that I lyke not with your manner of concluding vpon this , being once graunted . That this mother of ours , that must néedes teach all her chyldren , fyrst to beléeue in God ( for that faith commeth by hearing ) and also to know the Scriptures , and is the pyller and sure stay of trueth : must néedes be the absolute Iudge , and imperiall Schoolemistresse , to teach vs all , how to beléeue in God , and to vnderstande the Scriptures .

This geare hangeth together lyke Iermans lyps ( as the prouerbe is : ) If you had sayde thus .

The Church ( being the spowse of Christe ) is our mother , and hath receyued commission , from her husband , and our father Christ , to teach vs all those things that he hath taught and commaunded her to doo , & to teach vs his children to doo : wherfore , if we shall not hearken to her , as to our chéefe Schoole mistresse , vnder her husband and our father , so long as she teacheth nothing , but that which our father hath commaunded her to teach vs : we shall dispise him , because we despise her , as it is written . Qui vos spernit , Luke . 10. me spernit : He that despiseth you , despiseth me .

If you had written thus : a man might haue made some sence of your wordes . But as you haue written , you séeme to make the gray Mare the better Horse . And to spoyle our Father Christe of all his power : that our Mother , his Wife , may not be found with out absolute power .

I sée not therfore , why I may not for this blindnesse of your heartes , say as iustly to you , as S. Paule dooth to the Galathians . O insensati . &c. Oh you foolish fellowes , who hath bewitched you , not to obey vnto the trueth ? which euen of Infants and sucking Babes ( as it were ) is discerned , as cléere as the Sunne . So that you must not disdayne , though Maister Trippe , doo tryppe you in your owne turne , as a séely seducer , to maintaine ( as you doo all ) so grosse an opinion , béeing the forrest in déede , for all such Foxes to litter theyr whelpes in . And héere you séeme to haue had one fling at Maister Foxe also : because you vnderstoode that he is one allowed in the Kéepers warrant , to haue conference with you .

I meruayle , howe Maister Turnebull escaped your frumpping pen . But to conclude this assercion . Acquite your selfe as well as you can , why you should not all be suspected to be Antichristians , for as much as you doo so stowtly mayntayne that man of sinne , that setteth vp himselfe aboue all that is called God , and sitteth in the Temple of God , and boasteth himselfe , as though he were God . Whome the Lord shall destroy , euen with the breath of his mouthe . And that worde , that you woulde haue to be iudged by your Antichristian Churche : shall iudge bothe Antichriste and his Church . And that holy Ghost that came downe from Heauen , vpon our Christes Apostles , hath remayned , and dooth still remaine , and to the ende of the world shall remaine with his Catholique Church . That is , with that Church , which beléeueth , holdeth , and protesteth , that Catholique Faith , that Iesus Christe , commaunded his Apostles , to teach Catholiquely , to all Nations and sortes of peoples , in all parts of the world . Promising that the holy Ghost should alwayes remaine with the faithfull , to direct them in all trueth , and godlinesse of lyuing .

Thus , hauing first considered , the wordes of our Sauiour , in sending vs to the Scriptures , saying : Searche the Scriptures . &c. I haue founde that the conclusion that you make vppon the manner of speach , that our Sauiour vseth in that place of Saint Iohn his Gospell , is not . Secundum vnanimen consensum Patrum : ( that is ) According to the agréeable consent of the Fathers : and therefore condempned by your Fathers , in the Councell of Trent , in the fowrth Session .

Saint Austine , dooth accoumpt acurssed , whatsoeuer is taught , other then out of the Scriptures , of the Lawe and the Gospell . Lib. 3. Chap. 6. Against the Letters of Petilian . And in his booke of Christian doctrine , and the .37 . Chap. He saith : that without the authoritie of Scripture : our Faith dooth but stacker or stumble . And againe , in his .166 . Epistle , he sayth : That bothe Christe and his Church , are learned to be knowne in the Scriptures .

Basill sayth , In Asceticis . that whatsoeuer is taught without the holy Scripture , is sinne .

Chrysostome , in his second exposition vppon Mathew , sayth : that the true Church cannot other wise be known then by the holy Scriptures . Homilia . 49.

Yea , Saint Austine , in his first booke that he wrote , against the Epistle of Parmenianus , and the second Chap: dooth accoumpt it to be rashnesse , to giue credite , to any , that dooth not prooue by Scripture , that which he affyrmeth .

I dare not therefore , giue credite to that which you haue written , tyll you prooue it by Scripture .

As for your sixe Reasons that you stay vpon , I haue conceyued , and doo vnderstand what they be . And as in the beginning of your Pamphlet , you desire : so haue I taken Pen in hande , and haue done what I can to confute them . And as I thinke , haue doone it sufficiently . If you can replie , doo you take pen in hande againe , and doo what you are able . I wyll not refuse to trie the trueth of these matters , with you , or with the best on your side .

Haec est fides mea : quia vera , Christiana , Catholica , & Apostolica .

This is my Faith : because it is the true , Catholique , and Apostolique Faith .

Robertus Crowleus . Subscripsit Henricus Trippe , Hijs quae à Domino R. C. responsa sunt .