GOD saue you Mayster Pasquine my most pleasant companion .

What Marforius ? and wherabout goe you ?

Thou diddest so much delite me the last yeare with thy communication , that I am now come , purposely to tarye with thée ● while , that thou mayst once again tell me of thy vision , wherof this other yere thou toldest me , which pleased me so much , as it would not grieue me to heare it a thousand tymes , much lesse twise .

And I wil tel thée it againe with good will , adding therevnto other things , which then I had no time , nor remembred me to tel thée : aske on hardly , and I will fully satisfie thée .

Tell me firste of all , Heauy thinges goe downward , and not vpwarde . howe it is possible that thou that arte of stone shouldest get vppe into heauen ?

Is it not a greater maruell , that some of these lubberlye greasie Fryers , Parsons , Bishoppes , Abbots and other foule gorbellied fathers , shoulde get vp thither , which are so heauye that Elephantes are scarce able to carye them ?

What ? these are men , but much more do I maruell , when I thinke , what the Goddes should haue to do with stones .

And I pray thée what haue the Gods to do with Lions , Bulles , and Beares , which are perillous Beasts ? Yea and flying foules too , and yet for all that , in our dayes are they caried aboute in companie of the Gods .

What , we talke of the Goddes of the Christians , let vs nowe leaue Lucians fables . The Gods of stone and wood , are the Gods of the Papistes , and not of Christians .

I am content that thou speake of the Gods of the Christians , doest thou not sée , that they are for the most part made of stone ?

I take them for no Gods .

I know not how thou takest them : but wel I wote , that the common people now a dayes taketh them so .

And who I pray thée is so folish , as to worship Gods of stone ?

I can not tel thée whether this be folishenesse or no , No simall number , nor that thi●ke them selues no smal fooles . but as farre as I fée , this is of all men accoumpted godlinesse , and if we loke well , we shall finde by their garmentes and furniture , that they are worshipped , and this folly hath bene alwayes in mens mindes , as we sée that among those of olde time , was the God Terminus , The God Terminus . of whom a man may reade so many foolishe tales , that it woulde make him weary .

By my truth thou sayst truly , I wel remember that I haue read of that God Terminus , in what estimation the people of those dayes had him , and yet for all that , me thinkes , that men of oure time should not worship these stones , as they did .

Yea but let vs a while leaue this a part , and stand thou stil and heare me .

I heare thée wel , say on .

Thou knowest Marforius , P●squines labor and good meaning . that sith I was first acquainted with the world , I haue alwayes sought with my whole study , to bring men from euil to well doing , and moste chieflye Princes , Flatterrers alwayes about Princes . and greate men , who haue now a dayes their eares so full of flatterers talke , and of those flies that Diogenes speaketh of , Diogenes flyes . that no voyce except it be of stone , can any more enter into them . For which cause so often and so loude haue I cryed , that I haue enforced my selfe to enter into their eares .

But what a presumption is this of thée , that will doe this without the Popes licence .

God defende that I should be presumptuous , but thou knowest , that it hath bene alwayes necessarie to say and set forth the truth , the which sithe it lieth ( as ) buried , and that there is none to declare it , it followeth of necessitie by the saying of the gospel , Stones shall cry . that we stones must cry out .

I knewe not that till now . But I will therfore from henceforth so worke that I will be no longer dumbe . But follow thou thy talke . Luc. 19.

And so , seing that I cast awaye and in maner lost all my labour , I began somewhat to doubt , in what sort the thinges of the world were gouerned , and I doubted of the prouidence of God , & of his iustice , Pasquine doubteth of Gods prouidence . seing the affliction of the iust , and the prosperitie of the wicked , and within my selfe I sayde , what may he be , that hath the gouernance of thinges amonges men , and I thought , it shoulde be some other thing farre different from that which gouerneth the thinges of nature .

This is euen the right way to become an Epicure . The high way to Epicures opinion . But what ? diddest thou doubt , whether there were one onelye , that gouerneth al ?

Yea that I doubted .

And how came that doubt in thy braine .

I saw that God in nature is a thing moste orderlye beyonde all maruell , The beholding of nature . I sawe all thinges in their times conceyue , bring forth , flourishe , and giue fruite , rendering as it were last of al , thankes to nature after this sort , The earth mother of all thinges . and afterward againe to corrupt , and returne to their mother and firste originall . I sawe the Heauen and the Starres not a whitte to chaunge from their wonted course , neither rather or later to rise or go downe , I saw the earth , the sea , and the other Elementes to be verye well deuided , and their chaunges from one to another for the generation and corruption of things , to be ex●eadinglye well ordered , and if I did but beholde the workmanship of man , yea or of a flie , or of an Empt : The gret wisdome of God in forming his creatures . I was astonished at the proporcionate , comelye , wonderfull & vnspeakeable cunning of the Creator , moste of all seing all thinges done with so greate reason , that nothing in the composition of the nature of things , could either be put to , or taken away without marring the whole worke , so that being drowned in the consideration hereof , Psalme . 145. I cried . Great art thou Lorde and maruellous worthy to be praysed , there is no ende of thy greatnesse . Afterward if I considered the life of men , and their companie keping , their states and conditions , so without order and often tymes euillye disposed , Man onely kepeth not order . I coulde not but nedes beleue , that some blinde Diuell had had the gouernaunce hereof , and that did Christ cause me so to thinke , who being king of al together , sayeth notwithstanding , that he is not king of this world , saying : Gods kingdome is hea●enly . My kingdome is not of this worlde , and if it were of this worlde , my ministers woulde surelye fight . And in manys other places the same sayeth , Ioan. 18. calling Sathanas king and Prince of this worlde , Satan Prince of this world . and of this darkenesse , saying : * * Ioan. 12. Now shal the Prince of this world be cast out . And in the desert , Sathan promised him all the kingdomes of the worlde , Math. 4. if he would fall downe and worship him .

I pray thée Pasquine enter not into this heresie , Marc. 1. that Christ is not Lord ouer the world , Luc. 4. hast thou not read , that in the name of Iesus al knées shoulde bowe , Phillip. 2. of things in heauen , of things in earth , and things vnder the earth ?

Thou knowest not yet , what this worde worlde meaneth in the scripture .

And what meaneth it else , but this vnmeasurable frame or engine .

Yes Marforius an other thing , What the world is after the Scripture the Scripture calleth the world , the ambition , the couetousnesse , the lechery , and all those other thinges that sauour of nothing else but the flesh , 1. Ioan . 2. & . 5. so that , the flesh , the worlde , & the diuell , are those thrée furies that with their firebrandes and their Serpentes , make an entermingling and confusion of all thinges .

Why then these fatte Friers , that say they forsake the worlde , ●arye it with them into the Monastaries .

Monasteries are the world it selfe . Yea out of doubt , it is not possible to sée the worlde better , than in the Monasteries : where a man shall sée nothing else , but affections and passions of minde , with the which they seke to aduaunce them selues , or to driue the one the other out of the doores . Some fruites of monasticall life .

Thou sayst truth , but follow on a little .

Bicause I coulde not therefore knowe the nature of this God , that séemeth to gouerne worldlye thinges so blonderingly , I sought to know him by his officers , and seruauntes , for that it séemed to me , that he gouerneth al thinges by meanes of certaine demigods .

Whom callest thou demigods ?

Those that the grosse people call Saintes . Saintes are Demigods .

Beware I pray thée , that thou speake nothing against the saintes , but well , for thou knowest in how great estimation they be with the worlde .

God kéepe me from speaking euil of his frendes , Saintes in great estimation with the worlde . I go not about to tell thée other than the truth , neither shall I at any time be charged , to haue spoken any thing that is euill , or wicked , except it be by suche as woulde call the truth wickednesse .

Lette it not séeme straunge to thée , that there be nowe a dayes suche men , as doe labour so to call it .

For suche kinde of crueltie , Truth will be truth how so euer it be called . I care not , I knowe that the truthe can not be but truth .

Returne a little to thy purpose , for me thought thou was framing an argument , à minori ad mains , or to be better vnderstoode , à delegato ad ordinarium .

Thou speakest like a right Canonist . Marforius a Canon lawier And to satisfie thy desire , I say , that finding no meane , to cleare my selfe of this doubt , with my selfe I sayde , what the Diuell of holinesse , goodnesse , or equitie finde I in these saintes , that now a dayes are so worshipped of the world , & that haue taken in hand the gouernment of worldly things ? Saintes are not as they are named . Who if they nowe be , or do , that which sometime they were , or that is sayde they were or did , I shall sone consider , what is the order of this gouernement , if not , yet haue I cause to doubt . And forthwith it came in my minde to make a comparison of the lynes of Saintes , A very good way to try Saintes . and of their state , while they were lyuing , with their presente ●●ate nowe , hoping by this meanes to sée , if the Saintes that liued sometime , be the selfe same , that they say raigne nowe in heauen , and together with Christ doe gouerne al , or else whether those be different , and haue there aboue , other nature , and other condicions . True Saintes are Goddes frendes .

And what an arrogancie is this of thée ? wilte thou be a iudge ouer Saintes ?

No no frende Marforius , let it neuer please God , Who be true Saintes . that I shoulde be a iudge ouer his frendes , who can not sinne any more , neither be spotted with any worldly affection : Some be but Saintes in ●ame . but I would séeke onlye ( as I sayd ) if those be they , that gouerne so , or else if there be other vnder their name , that haue none other thing of the saint , but the bare name .

What is that thou sayest ? what a presumptuous boldenesse shoulde this be ? thinkest thou that there be any that vsurpe the names of saintes , and vnder that godly name deceiue the world ?

As though the thing were to bée doubted . The deuil neuer becommeth an angell but when he meaneth most mischiefe . Knowest thou not , that the Diuell vnder the forme of an Angell of light , worketh all his deceytes ? for if he shoulde shewe him selfe plainly as he is , none woulde beleue him . Knowest thou not that Superstition and Hipocrisie are the Diuelles Retorique , with the whiche , 2. Cor. 11. he maketh the worlde beleue , al that he listeth , The diuelles retorique . Beholde the Fryers , I pray thée , thinkest thou , that they woulde euer haue bene able , to make the worlde beleue so many manifest falshoodes , Fryers the diuels scholers . and foolishe ●oyes , if they had not learned this art of the Diuell ?

Why then , their coates , hoodes , and sundry colours , are they deuised by the Diuel ?

Yea out of doubt : The diuel● d●uise . for if they were the same that they woulde be counted , what nede shoulde there be of such disguised garmentes ? the whiche say they , do signifie that whiche they ought to be . This is a cleare case , that while there is shadowe & signification of the thing , Marke well . there is not the thing it selfe . If they were in dede , what shoulde they nede to séeke so to appeare ? All is not gold that glistereth .

I haue heard in dode , that outwardly they be one thing , & inwardly an other .

Thou mayst be sure of y● , if thou beleue the Gospell , whiche saythe . That there shall come wolues to deuour vs , clad in shepe skinnes , by cause they will not be knowen : for righte well thou knowest , that one shepe eateth not another ,

Thou tellest me Pasquine greate matters , and suche as I neuer heard before , and yet haue I studied many yeares the Canon lawe , and in the subtil pointes of Iohn Brokenshinne , Iohn Brokenshinne a wryter vpon the Canon law . and yet did I neuer reade these thinges , which haue in them somewhat more , than euery man vnderstandes . Tell me now , how thou madest this comparison , for I remembre I read in Plato , that it is a goodlye way to finde out the truth , A good way to finde out the truth . to seperate the thinges that are like , from those that are different . And I thinke this same be it , that our Logitians speake of , that contraries being layd together , are the better discerned .

Thou sayest wel , but to come to the poynte . Take thou which thou wilt● , among all the Saintes , yea if thou wouldest take the Uirgin Marye , who hath the chiefest place , and then consider well , after what sorte she was in tymes past , while she liued , and in what sorte she is nowe , after she became to be Diefied : And thou shalt finde , that I doubt not without cause , No more like than fire and water . whether she that is set vpon the Aultars , be the selfe same that was mother of the Lord .

Make thou Pasquine this comparison , for herein thou hast a better iudgement than I , Comparisons odious . beside that , by vs Canonistes comparisons are counted odious .

So I wil , sith it pleaseth thée , but aunswere me a little , to that I will aske thée , for so the matter shall be the clearer : what deest thou thinke , that the mother of the Lorde was in times past ?

If we will beleue the scriptures , The prayse of the Virgin Mary . she was a Uirgin moste chaste , moste modest in behauiour , moste holy , most humble aboue all other creatures .

And also very well learned in holy scripture , The price of the dog what it meaneth , looke in Deut. 23. full of charity towarde the poore , without anye iote of couetousnesse , without desire of gayne , or ryches , not deuouring the price of the Dogge , not estéeming Beades nor costly garmentes Is it not so Marforius .

Yea truely , but what callest thou the price of the Dogge .

That which by vowe , Greate oddes betwene Mary Christes mother , and Mary on the Aultar . for wicked requestes if they come to passe , is giuen to hir .

I vnderstand thée well .

Thou séest therfore , what she was once , now tel me what thou thinkst by this , y● with so much wax , with so much golde & siluer , with so many chaynes & brouches , & with so many perfumes , the world doth at this day honor .

I can not tel what to say of hir .

I maruel of thée , Great hurt commeth of false religion once receyued that thou sayest y● canst not tel what to say of hir , in so cleare a matter .

Maruell not at all thereat . For this Religion wherein I haue so long time liued , hath in such sorte blinded me , that albeit I would , I can not , nor dare not , Ianichers for the most part are christians borne , and denying that fayth , become Turkes , and are the garde of the Turke . Which is to cause a man to confesse by induction , that which he would not , and so ouerthrowe him selfe . giue this iudgement . Thou knowest what a great matter it is to be borne & bred vp in any Religion : & many times it is of greater force to be bred vp in it , than to be born in it : as we se of the Ianichers . Beside that I doubt , that if I should say any thing against hir , she would forthwith be reuenged vpon me .

If thou wouldest continue in thy false Religion , approuing it to be good by this mea●es : the Turkes and Moores will continue in their owne , & yet shalte thou not be able to say , that theirs is false . But yet for all this thine opinion , doest thou not graunt me , that she is not the very same ?

Thou talkest with me after the maner of Socrates in his disputations , vnderstanding not the end where about thou goest .

Harken therfore Marforius . Of force thou must graunt me this , that all Sainctes ought to follow the eternall father , Christ the example of saintes . and his sonne Iesus Christ .

This can I neuer deny .

The father is not desirons of reuenge as thou séest , for he maketh his sonne to rise , Math. 5. vpon the bad & the good .

Oh what great g●●dnesse is that .

Beside that , christ dyed for sinners , 1. Cor. 15. of whom , he should rather haue bene reuenged , Luc. 23. & prayed for them that put him to death . Moreouer thou hast his mercifull promise confirmed with an othe , which sayth : I will not the death of a sinner , Ezech. 18. but rather that he repent and liue .

Oh true benignity and humblenesse of heart .

Thou sayest well , Math. 11. thou wilte graunt me also , Christ commaunded his Saintes to be meke and humble . The Pope commaundeth h●s to be cruel and seeke reuenge . that Christ commaunded those that be his , that they should learne of him , to be méeke and humble of heart .

It is true .

Wherfore then art thou afrayd , that the Sainctes , as cruel Tirans desirous of reuenge , would doe thée harme ?

Bycause I sée , that in manye places , they haue done straunge and cruell miracles .

Doest thou thinke , that if they had bene aliue , they woulde so haue done ?

No not I , for if their Historyes be true , a man may sée , that they were moste wonderfully pacient , euen vnto the death .

How canst thou then beleue , that these Saintes that I speake of , and those I spake of before , are due selfe thing ?

Their miracles make me to beleue it .

What ? knowest not thou , Antichrist must worke miracles . that Antichrist with his monstruous miracles , must put the worlde in confusion ?

I haue heard say so : but this is yet looked for , Dan. 7. to come with the Messias of the Iewes .

And if he were here nowe , Apoc. 13. wouldest thou any whit the better consider these myracles ? Math. 24.

And howe can I knowe , that he is here nowe ?

By the signes that Christ hath taught vs , Sygnes to know Antichrist by . among the whiche there is one moste manifest , where he sayth : when you shall sée the abhomination of desolation standing in the holy place . Math. 24.

And what meaneth that ?

It meaneth , Antichristes temple disscribed . that when we shall sée in the place where God onely ought to be honoured , that other Goddes are worshipped : That is the temple of Antichrist , and the abhomination . For what thing can be more against Christ , than to driue Christ out of his temple , Nothing more against Christ than Antichrist . and to put other in his place , to whome it is attributed to worke miracles , and many other notable feates ? And why doe these miracles so much moue thée ? knowest thou not , that where they are ryfest , Miracles are tokens for the vnbeleuers . there is the lesse signe of faith , and commonly those signes are foretokens of the destruction of common wealthes , and decay of Cityes . For these Gods seing the most high god angry for their naughty Religion , and that he will altogether ouerthrow this worldly common wealth , to the ende the people should not waxe wyser , An old practise of the prelates . & so espye their doinges , they kéepe them entangled with these miracles , to the which they runne like shéepe for their last refuge in their troubles : And euen so was it by Baal in the olde Testament , that the more the Lorde was by that kinde of worshipping honoured by the prophets , so much the more did the miracles increase , & it was sene , that Baals miracles had then greater force , than the worde of the Lorde , Iniquity shall haue the vpper hande . so that vntill the captiuitie of Babilon , for feare and for the Religion of miracles , the Iewes could not rid them selues of the worshipping of Baal , nay , Superstition and Idolatry are vehement persuasions to the ignorant . they said sometime , that bicause they had left of worshipping of him , that was cause of all their miseryes , as may be sene in Ieremy , where he sayth : Since we lefte of to do sacrifice to the Quéene of heauen , we haue had scarsitie of all thinges . And to the ende thou knowe it , Hier. 44. these Goddes hurte none but such as beleue in them , but to those that dispise them , they can do no hurt at all , Gods of small power , that would hurt and can not . for if they could they would long sithens haue destroyed all Almaine , and all the townes of the Swychers , who haue destroyed these Goddes , and chaunged the prices of them into a better vse .