WEll met , good Master Theologus .

What mine old friend , Philagathus ! I am glad to see you in good health .

Are you walking , Sir , heere all alone in this pleasant meadow ?

Yea : for I take some pleasure at this time of the yeere to walke abroad in the fieldes for my recreation , both to take the fresh aire , and to heare the swéet singing of birds .

Indeed , Sir , it is very comfortable , especially now in this pleasant moneth of May : and thanks be to God , hitherto we haue had a very forward spring , and as kindly a season as came this seuen yeeres .

God doth abound towards vs in mercies : oh that we could abound towards him in thanksgiuing .

I pray you sir , what a clocke hold you it ?

I take it to be a little past one : for I came but euen now from dinner .

But behold , yonder commeth two men towards vs : What be they I pray you ?

They be a couple of neighbours of the next Parish : the one of them is called Asunetus , who in very déed is a very ignorant man in Gods matters : and the other is called Antilegon , a notable Atheist , and cauiller against all goodnesse .

If they be such , it were good for vs to take some occasion to speake of matters of religion ; it may be we shall doe them some good .

You haue made a good motion : I like it well . If therefore you will minister some matter , and mooue some questions , I will bée readie to answer in the best sort I can .

But stay sir , lo heere they come vpon vs .

Welcome neighbours , welcome . How do you Asunetus , and you Antilegon ?

Well , God be thanked ; and we are glad to see your mastership in good health .

Indeed sir , we haue some little busines ; for we came to talke with one of your parish , about a Cow we should buy of him .

Hath my neighbour a Cow to sell ?

We are told he hath a very good one to sell ; but I am afrayd at this time of the yeare , we shall finde deare ware of her .

How deare ? What doe you thinke a very good Cow may be worth ?

A good Cow indeed , at this time of the yere , is worth very nere foure pound , which is a great price .

It is a very great price indéed .

I pray you M. Theologus , leaue off this talking of kine , and worldly matters ; and let vs enter into some speech of matters of religion , whereby we may doe good , and take good one of another .

You say well : but it may be these mens businesse requireth haste , so as they can not stay .

No sir , we are in no great haste , we can stay two or three houres , for the dayes are long ; if we dispatch our businesse by night it will serue our turne well enough .

Then if it will please you to walke to yonder Oke trée , there is a goodly Arbour , and handsome seats , where wée may all sit in the shadow , and conferre of heauenly matters .

With a good will Sir .

Come then let vs goe .

This is a goodly Arbour indeed , and heere be handsome seats .

Sit you all downe , I pray you . Now friend Philagathus , if you haue any questions to moue of matters of Religion , we are all readie to heare you .

It may be these men are somewhat ignorant of the very principles of Religion ; and therefore I thinke it not amisse to begin there , and so to make way for further metters .

I pray you do so then .

First , then I demand of you , in what state all men are borne by nature ?

In the state of condemnation , as appeareth , Ephe. 2. 3. We are by nature the children of wrath as well as others . And againe it is written : Behold I was borne in iniquitie , Psal. 52. 5. and in sin hath my mother conceiued me .

Is it euery mans case ? Are not Dukes and Nobles , Lords and Ladies , and the great Potentates of the earth exempted from it ?

No surely , it is the common case of all , both high and low , rich and poore , as it is written : What is man that hee should bee Iob 15. 14 . cleane , and he that is borne of a woman , that he should be iust ?

From whence commeth it , that all men are borne in so wofull a case ?

From the fall of Adam , who thereby hath not onely wrapt himselfe , but all his posterity , in extreame and vnspeakeable misery ; as the Apostle saith : By one mans disobedience , many were made sinners : and by the offence of one , the fault came on all men to condemnation .

What reason is there that we all should thus be punished for an other mans offence ?

Because we were then all in him , and are now all of him : that is , we are so descended out of his loynes , that of him we haue not only receiued our naturall and corrupt bodies , but also by propagation haue inherited his foule corruptions , as it were by hereditary right .

But forasmuch as some haue dreamed that Adam by his fall hurt himselfe only , and not his posterity ; and that we haue his corruption deriued vnto vs by imitation , and not by propagation : therefore I pray you shew this more plainely .

Euen as great personages , by committing of treason , doe not onely hurt themselues , but also staine their blood , and disgrace their posteritie : for the children of such Nobles are disinherited , whose blood is attainted ; till they be restored againe by act of Parliament . Euen so our blood being attainted by Adams transgression , we can inherit nothing of right , till wee be restored by Christ .

Doeth this hereditarie infection , and contagion , ouer-spread our whole nature ?

Yes truely , it is vniuersall , extending Ephes. 2. 1. Col. 1. 21. Col. 2. 13. it selfe thorowout the whole man , both soule , and body , both reason , vnderstanding , will and affections : for the Scriptures auouch , that wée are dead in sinnes and trespasses .

How vnderstand you that ?

Not of the deadnesse of the bodie , or the naturall faculties of the soule , but of the spirituall faculties .

Did Adam then lose his nature and destroy it by his fall ? or is our nature taken away by his fall ?

Not so . Our nature was corrupted thereby , but not destroyed : for still there remaineth in our nature , reason , vnderstanding , will , and affections , and we are not as a block , or a stocke ; but by Adams disobedience wee are blemished , maimed , and spoyled of all abilitie to vnderstand aright , or to will and doe aright . As it is written : Wee are not sufficient of our selues , to thinke any thing as of our 2. Cor. 3. 5. selues : but our sufficiencie is of God . And againe : It is God which worketh in you both Phil. 2. 13. the will and the deed ; euen of his good pleasure . And as concerning the other point , S. Iames saith : That all men are made after the Iam. 3. 9. similitude of God ; meaning therby that there remaine some reliques and parts of Gods Image , euen in the most wicked men : as reason , vnderstanding , &c. so that our nature was not wholly destroyed .

Then you thinke there be some sparks and remnants left in vs still of that excellent Image of God , which was in our first creation .

I thinke so indéed : and it may plainly appeare vnto vs in the wise spéeches and writings of Heathen Poets and Philosophers : in all which wée may , as by certaine ruines , perceiue what was the excellent frame and building of mans creation .

Can a man please God in any thing which he doth , so long as he continueth in the state of nature ?

No , not in any thing : for till wée be in the state of grace , euen our best actions are sinfull : as preaching , prayer , almes déeds , &c. As it is written : Who can bring a cleane thing Iob 14. 4. out of that which is vncleane . Iob. 14. 4. The Apostle also saith : They which are in the flesh Rom. 8. 8 cannot please God : that is , such as are still in their naturall corruption . And our Lord Jesus himselfe saith : Doe men gather Grapes of Mat. 7. 16. thornes , or Figges of thistles ? Meaning thereby , that méere naturall men can bring foorth no fruites acceptable to God .

This is a very harsh and hard saying ; I pray you for my further instruction , make it more plaine .

Men in the state of nature may doe those things which of themselues are good , but they doe vtterly faile in the manner of doing them : they do them not as they should be done : that is , in faith , loue , zeale , conscience of obedience , &c. neither yet with any chéerefulnesse , delight or feeling , but euen as it were , forcing themselues to doe the outward actions . Thus did Cain sacrifice ; the Pharisies pray ; Ananias and Sapphira giue almes ; and the Jewes offer vp their oblations and burnt offerings .

Haue men any true sight , or liuely and sound feeling of this misery and wofull estate , so long as they be meerely naturall ?

No surely , but are altogether blinded and hardened in it , being nothing desirous to come out of it , but doe greatly please themselues in it , and can hardly bée perswaded that they are in any such wofull case ; as appeareth plainely in the example of that ruler , who being commanded or rather required of our Sauiour Christ to kéep the commandements , answered : All these haue I kept from my youth . And againe , Luke . 18. 21. although the Church of Laodicea was wretched , miserable , poore , blind , and naked ; yet she thought her selfe rich , encreased with goods , and wanting nothing . It followeth then , that so long as men are in the state of nature , they haue no true sight and féeling of their misery .

Do you not thinke that all men being meerely naturall , are vnder the curse of the Law ?

Yea certainly : and not only so , but also vnder the very tyranny and dominion of Satan , though they know it not , see it not , féele it not , or perceiue it not : for all that are not in Christ , are vnder the curse of the law , and the power of darknesse and the diuel , as appeareth , Ephes. 2. 2. where the diuell is called the prince that ruleth in the aire , euen the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience . In another 2. Cor. 4. 4. 2. Tim. 2. 26. place , he is called the god of this world , who blindeth the eies of all vnbeléeuers . And againe , it is said ; that all men naturally are in his snare being taken captiue of him at his wil.

Few will be perswaded of that ; they will say , they defie the diuell , and thanke God they were neuer troubled with him .

Their hot words do nothing amend the matter : for the diuell is no more driuen away with words , then with holy water ; but he sitteth in the tongues and mouthes : nay possesseth the very hearts and intrals of thousands which say they defie him , and are not troubled with him , as appeareth manifestly by their particular acttions , and the whole course of their life .

Me thinkes , if the diuell do so inwardly possesle the hearts and consciences of men , they should haue some sight and feeling of it .

The working of the Diuell in mens soules ( being an inuisible spirit ) is with such vnconceiuable sleight and crafty conueiance , that men in the estate of nature cannot possibly féele it , or perceiue it : for how can a blind man sée , or a dead man féele ?

Shew this more plainely .

Euen as a crafty Juggler doth so prestigiate and blinde mens outward senses by the delusions of Sathan , that they thinke they sée that which they sée not , and féele that which they féele not : Euen so the diuell doth so delude and bewitch our inward senses , & the naturall faculties of our soules , that we hauing a mist cast before our eies , thinke we are that which wée are not , sée that which wée sée not , and féele that which wée féele not . For the déepe cunning of Sathan lieth in this ; that hée can giue vs our deaths wound , and wée shall neuer know who hurt vs .

Few will beleeue this to be true .

True indéed : for few will beléeue the Scriptures : few will beléeue this , because few féele it : where it is not felt , it can hardly be beléeued : only the elect do féele it , and therefore only the elect do beléeue it . As for all others , they are the very prentises and bond-slaues of the diuell , which is a thousand times worse then to be a galley-slaue .

How long do men continue in this wofull state of nature , being vnder the curse of the law , and the very slauery of Sathan and sinne ?

Till they be regenerate and borne againe , and so brought into the state of grace : as our Lord Jesus saith : Except a man be borne Iohn 3 3. againe , he cannot see the kingdome of God .

Do not many die and depart this life , before they be borne againe , and consequently before they be brought into the state of grace ?

Yes no doubt , thousands : for many liue fortie or thréescore yeares in this world , and in the end die , and goe out of this life , before they knowe wherefore they came into it : as it is written : My people perish for want of knowledge .

What may we thinke of such ?

I quake to speake what I thinke : for surely I doe not sée how such can be saued . I speake not now of infants and children , whereof some no doubt are saued by vertue of the promise & couenant , through the election of grace .

It seemeth then that you thinke none can be saued , but those only which are borne againe .

I thinke so indéed .

I pray you tell me what that same regeneration and new birth is , whereof you speake .

It is a renewing and repairing of the corrupted and decayed estate of our soules . As Rom. 12. 2. Ephes. 4. 13. it is written : Be ye changed by the renewing of your minde . And againe : Be renewed in the spirit of your minde .

Explaine this more fully .

Euen as the wild Oliue retaineth his old nature , till it be grafted into the swéet Oliue , but afterward is partaker of a new nature : so we til we be grafted into Christ , retain our old nature , but afterward are turned into a new nature , as it is written : If any man be in Christ , he is a new creature . 2. Cor. 5. 17.

I vnderstand not what you say .

You must know this , that as there is a naturall birth of the whole man ; so there is also a spirituall birth of the whole man .

How is that ?

When as the naturall faculties of the soule , as reason , vnderstanding , will and affections , and the members of the body also , are so sanctified , purged and rectified by grace , that we vnderstand , wil , and desire that which is good .

Can not a man will and desire that which is good , before he be borne againe ?

No more then a dead man can desire the good things of this life . For mans will is not frée to consent vnto good , till it be enlarged by grace : and an vnregenerate man doth sinne necessarilie , though not by constraint . For mans will is frée from constraint ( for it sinneth of it selfe ) but not from thrasdome vnto sin .

You speake , as if a man could do no other thing but sinne , till the new worke be wrought in him .

That is mine opinion indéed : for a man & his flesh are all one , til he be regenerate ; they agrée together like man & wife , they ioine together in all euill , they liue and die together : for when the flesh perisheth , the man perisheth .

Is not this regeneration a changing or rather a destroying of humane nature ?

Nothing lesse : It is neither an abolishing , nor changing of the substance of bodie or soule , or any of the faculties thereof : but only a rectifying and repairing of them by remoouing the corruption .

Is then our naturall corruption so purged and quite remoued by the power of grace , as that it remaineth not at all in vs , but that we are wholly freed of it ?

Not so . For the reliques and remnants of our old nature , which the Scripture calleth the old man , doe hang about vs , and dwell in vs , euen vntill our dying day : as it is plainly prooued in the ten last verses of the seuenth to the Romanes .

Then you affirme that this new man or new worke of grace and regeneration , is vnperfect in this life .

Yea. For the new creature , or new worke of grace , can neuer be fullie fashioned in this life : but is alwayes in fashioning . And as our faith and knowledge in this life are vnperfect : so is our regeneration , and sanctification .

You said before that the regeneration or new birth is of the whole man ; which speech seemeth to imply , that the new worke of grace is entire and perfect .

You mistake the matter . For although the new birth is vniuersall , and of the whole man , yet it is not entire , perfect , pure and without mixture of corruption . For it is written : The flesh lusteth against the spirit , and the Gal. 5. 17. spirit against the flesh . The Apostle also prayeth , that the Thessalonians may be sanctified thorowout , in spirit , soule , and bodie .

This seemeth very obscure , I pray you make it more plaine .

You must note this , that the new worke and the old , flesh and spirit , grace and corruption , are so intermingledly ioyned together in all the faculties of the soule and body , as that the one doth euer fight against the other .

But tell me , I pray you , how you vnderstand this intermingling of grace and corruption in the soule ? Do you mean that grace is placed in one part of the soule , and corruption in another , so as they be sundred in place ?

No , that is not my meaning : but this , that they be ioyned and mingled together ( as I said ) in and thorowout the whole man . For the minde , or vnderstanding part , is not one part flesh , and another part spirit : but the whole minde is flesh , and the whole minde is spirit , partly one , and partly another . The same is to be said of the will and affection .

I pray you expresse it more plainly .

Euen as the ayre in the dawning of the day , is not wholly light , or whollie darke , as at midnight , or at noone day ; neither is it in one part light , in another part darke : but the whole aire is partly light , and partly darke thorowout : and as in a vessell of luke-warme water , the water it selfe is not only hot , nor only colde , but heat and colde are mixed together in euery part of the water : so is the flesh and the spirit mingled together in the soule of man . And this is the cause why these two contrarie qualities fight together .

Out of doubt this doctrine of regeneration is a very great mysterie .

Yes certainly : it is a secret of secrets , which the wise of this world cannot comprehend .

Some thinke that courtesie , kindnesse , good nurture , good nature , and good education , are regeneration , and that courteous and good natured men must needs be saued .

They are greatly deceiued ; for these things doe not necessarily accompanie saluation , but are to be found in such as are altogether prophane and irreligious : yet wée are to loue such good outward qualities , and the men in whom wée finde them .

What say you then to learning , wit , and policie ; are not these things of the essence of religion , and prooue a regeneration ?

No , no : for they be externall gifts , which may be in the most wicked men , as in Papists , Heathen Poets , and Philosophers : yet wée are greatly to reuerence learned and wise men , although the new and inward worke be not as yet wrought : for that is onely of God , that is from aboue .

The common people doe attribute much to learning and policy : for they will say , such a man is learned and wise , and knoweth the Scripture as well as any of them all , and yet he doth not thus and thus .

It is one thing to know the History and Letter of the Scriptures , and another thing to beléeue and féele the power thereof in the heart , which is onely from the sanctifying spirit , which none of the wise of this world can haue .

It is a common opinion , that if a man hold the truth in iudgement , be no Papist , or heretike , but leadeth an honest ciuill life , then he must of necessity be saued .

That followeth not : for many come so far , which yet notwithstanding haue not the inward touch .

That seemeth strange . For many will say , As long as they be neither whore nor theefe , nor spotted with such like grosse sinnes , they trust in God they shall be saued .

They erre not knowing the scriptures . For many thousands are in great danger of losing their soules for euer , which are frée from such notorious and horrible vices may many which in the world are counted good honest men , good true dealers , good neighbors , and good Townes-men .

I pray you Sir , giue me leaue a little . I haue heard all your speech hitherto , and I like reasonably well of it : but now I can forbeare no longer , my conscience vrgeth me to speake . For me thinkes you goe too far , you goe beyond your learning in this , that you condemne good neighbours , and good townesmen . You say , many such men are in danger of losing their soules : but I will neuer beleeue it while I liue . For if such men be not saued , I cannot tell who shall .

But you must learne to know out of the Scriptures that all outward honesty and righteousnes , without the true knowledge and inward féeling of God , auaileth not to eternall life . As our Sauiour Christ saith : Except your Math. 5. righteousnesse exceed the righteousnesse of the Scribes and Pharisees , ye cannot enter into the Kingdome of heauen . It is also written that Acts 17. 12. when Paul preacht at Berea , many honest men and honest women did beléeue : that is , such as were outwardly honest , or honest to the world only ; for they could not be truly and inwardly honest , before they did beléeue . Therefore you sée that this outward honesty & ciuility , without the inward regeneration of the spirit , auaileth not to eternall life ; and then consequently , all your honest worldly men are in great danger of losing their soules for euer .

What sound reason can you yeeld , why such honest men should be condemned ?

Because many such are vtterly void of all true knowledge of God , and of his word . Nay which is more : many of them despise the word of God , and hate all the zealous professors of it . They estéeme preachers but as pratlers ; and Sermons as good tales ; they estéeme a Preacher , no more than a shoomaker : they regard the Scriptures , no more then their old shooes . What hope is there then , I pray you , that such men should be saued ? Doth not the holy Ghost say : How shall wee escape if wee Heb. 2. 3. neglect so great saluation ?

You goe too farre , you iudge too hardly of them .

Not a whit . For all experience sheweth , that they minde , dreame , and dote of nothing else day and night , but this world , this world , lands and leases , grounds and liuings , kine , and shéepe , and how to way rich . All their thoughts , words , and works , are of these and such like things . All their actions doe most manifestly declare , that they are of the earth , and speake of the earth : and that there is nothing in them , but earth , earth . As for sermons , they care not how few they heare . And for the scriptures they regard them not , they read them not , they estéeme them not worth the while : there is nothing more irkesome vnto them ; they had rather pill strawes , or do any thing , then heare , read , or conferre of the Scriptures . And as the Prophet saith ; The word of the Lord is as a reproch Ier. 6. 10. vnto them , that haue no delight in it .

I maruell much , that such men should liue so honestly to the world-ward .

No maruell at all ; for many bad men whose hearts are worm-eaten within , yet for some outward and carnall respects , doe abstaine from the grosse act of sinne ; as some for credit , some for shame , some for feare of Law , some for feare of punishment ; but none for loue of God , for zeale , or conscience of obedience . For it is a sure thing , that the wicked may haue that spirit which doth represse ; but not that which doth renew .

It seemeth then by your speeches , that some which are not regenerate , do in some things excell the children of God .

Most certaine it is , that some of them in outward gifts , and the outward cariage of themselues , doe goe beyond some of the elect .

Shew me I pray you in what giftes .

In learning , discretion , iustice , temperance , prudence , patience , liberalitie , affabilitie , kindnesse , curtesie , good nature , & such like .

Yes truely . For some of Gods deare children , in whom no doubt the inward worke is truly and soundly wrought ; yet are so troubled & encombred with a crabbed and crooked nature , and so clogged with some master sin ; as some with anger , some with pride , some with couetousnesse , some with lusts , some one way , and some another : all which breaking out in them , doe so blemish them and their profession , that they cannot so shine forth vnto men , as otherwise no doubt they would ; and this is their wound , their griefe , and their hart-smart , and that which costeth them many a téere , and many a praier : and yet can they not get the full victorie ouer them , but still they are left in them , as the pricke in the flesh to humble them .

Yet loue should couer a multitude of such infirmities in Gods children .

It should doe so indeed : but there is great want of loue , euen in the best : and the worser sort espying these infirmities in the godlie , run vpon them with open mouth and take vpon them to condemne them vtterly , and to iudge their hearts , saying ; they be hypocrites , dissemblers , and there is none worse then they .

But doe you not thinke that there be some counterfeits , euen amongst the greatest professors ?

But I hope you are of this minde , that some regenerate men euen in outward gifts , and their outward cariage , are comparable with any others .

Questionlesse , very many . For they being guided by Gods spirit , and vpheld by his grace , do walke very vprightly and vnblameably towards men .

Yet there resteth one scruple : for it seemeth verie strange vnto me , that men of so discreet cariage as you speake of , and of so many good parts , should not be saued . It is great pitie such men should be damned .

It séemeth so vnto vs indéed : but God is onely wise , and you must note , that as there be some infirmities in Gods children , which he correcteth with temporall chastisements ; and yet rewardeth their faith , loue , and inward seruice and obedience , with eternall life : so there be some good things in the wicked , and them that are without Christ , which God rewardeth with temporall blessings ; and yet punisheth them eternally for their vnbeléefe and hardnesse of heart .

Now you haue reasonably well satisfied me touching the doctrine of regeneration , and the manifold errours and deceits that are in it , and of it . I pray you let vs now proceed : and first of all tell me , by what meanes the new birth is wrought .