THE FIRST REASON : Of Prophesies .

IF M. Doctor had contended , pondere argumentorum , and not multitudine , with sound arguments , and not with a multitude ; he might happily haue perswaded some to his religion : whereas now by reason of the weaknes of his reasons , he hath rather hindred many from the same , then moooued any vnto it . That which is commonly said of pictures , hath a fit place in this worke of doctor Hill , Picturae eminus , non comminus videndae , pictures are faire a farre off , but if the eye draw neare them , there is no shew of them .

Before I come to the matter , I will examine the title of his booke , in which he hath placed a peece of holy Scripture , taken out of S. Peter , 1. Pe● . 3. who willeth all men to be readie to giue an answer of that hope which is in them : what then is become of the vnfolden faith of Papists , who will haue simple men to answer , that they beleeue as the Church beleeueth ? S. Peter speaketh of the hope that is in them , not out of them , in themselues , not in another . In a word , to say they beleeue as the Church beleeueth , is an answer fit for all heretikes . Furthermore , out of this place of S. Peter , we gather that Christian men haue a hope in them , yet Pope Iohn the 23. denied the immortalitie of the soule . Bellarmine had rather discredit the Councill of Constance , in which this is reported , then confesse an errour . There is one thing yet to be touched in his answer vnto the coppie of a letter , in which he protesteth his loyaltie to our late gracious Queene Elizabeth . May we trust him ? If I should demaund of him , whether he alloweth the Bull of Pius Quintus or no , it may be I should pose him . The Papists teach that the Pope may depose Princes , and yet they will be good subiects . If he answereth that he is not a Papist in this point : where is his Vnitie , of which he vaunteth in one of his reasons ? Parrie confessed that euery word in Doctor Allens booke was a warrant to a prepared minde . Do●t . Bill . 704. It taught that Kings may be excommunicated , depriued , and violently handled : it prooueth that all warre vndertaken for Religion is honourable . Thus M. Doctor you see we haue cause to doubt of your loyaltie , but I leaue that to God Almightie who searcheth the hearts of all men , and come to your Reasons .

In answering your arguments I purpose to draw them to syllogismes , your first argument hath in it this syllogisme .

They which make the prophesies of Christ to be false , hold a false religion : But the Protestants make the prophesies of Christ to be false : Ergo they hold a false religion .

I denie the assumption , which you prooue out of the 12. of Iohn , where Christ foretelleth that he will draw all men vnto him ; but by the Protestants doctrine Christ hath not done so . Ergo.

I denie the assumption againe , for exposition of which place of holy writ , in hunc locum . I produce Augustine , who writeth thus . Quae omnia ? nisi ex quibus Ille eijcitur foras . non autem dixit omnes , sed omnia , non enim omnium est sides . What all but those out of which Sathan is cast ? he said not all men , but all things , for all men haue not faith . Againe Augustine writeth thus . Aut si omnia , ipsi homines intelligendi sunt , omnia praedestinata ad salutem possumus dicere . If by all things all men are meant , we may vnderstand all the predestinate vnto saluation .

Your other Scriptures foretell the calling of the Gentiles , which we confesse . To proceede in this argument , was not Christ true in his promise , when as Act. 1.15 . the Church was but about a hundred and twentie soules ? here is no great number , and yet this small number was in a chamber . In the 13. of the Reuel . v. 3. the whole earth wondered at the beast , yet is Christ true in his promise . In your Apologie of English fugitiues , thus you shall finde it written . The whole world did runne from Christ after Iulian to plaine Paganisme , after Valens to Arrianisme . The Rhemists vpon the second of the Thessalonians , acknowledge a reuolt from the Church . Nazianzen in his oration of Cyprian saith , that Cyprianus in temporibus Decij solus è Christianis est relictus . S. Cyprian in Decius his time was the onely Christian . Th●oph . lib. 1. cap. 16. Read Aug. in 128 psal. and Te●tul e●hor . ad Ca●i & Paci●nus in part . ad po●ni . The Arrian Emperour speaketh thus vnto Liberius , Quota pars tu es orbis terrarum ; qui solus facis cum homine scelerato , & orbis terrarum , & mundi ●otius pacem dissoluis ? What part of the world art thou that onely takest part with the wicked man , and dissoluest the peace of the whole earth ? Liberius answereth , Non diminuitur solitudine mea verbum sidei , nam & olim tres soli fuere qui edicto resisterent . In that I am left alone , the word of faith is not diminished , for in times past , there were three onely which resisted the kings edict . Thus euery man may see Christ true in his promise , though the church be not alwaies glorious in outward appearance . I will now retort the argument vpon the Papists themselues ; They which hold that the faith of Christ may be wholly extinguished , make the promises of Christ vntrue : But the Papist holdeth that the faith of Christ may be wholly extinguished . Ergo. The assumption is auouched by Dominicus Asote , who saith , Lib. 3. d● Pap● . cap. 17. as testifieth Bellarmine himselfe , that extinct a fide per discessionem ab Apostolica sede , totus mundus vanus erit , the faith beeing extinguished by a departure from the Apostolicall See , the whole world shall be vaine . I may speake therefore of this Doctor , as Tullie doth to one , Ea in alterum ne dicas , quae cum tibi responsa sunt , erubescas : vtter not these things against another , which when they are answered , will make thee ashamed . Now I come to vntruths which are auouched in this chapter . First , he chargeth vs that we affirme , that almost all nations haue beene in Lucifer his thraldome vntill this our age in which Luther came to expell Lucifer . Secondly he affirmeth that in our countrey of England , it is most manifest , that all were Papists without exception , from the first christening thereof vntill this age of king Henrie the eight . M. Doctor , haue you lost your forehead ? was Iohn Wickliff a Papist ? I perswade my selfe you dare not affirme it . Againe , this land receiued the faith in the Apostles time , as witnesseth Tertullian in his book against the Iewes . But the Apostles preached not Poperie . Did the Apostles teach the halfe communion ? who but blind would affirme it ? Againe , in Pope Gregories time , this land differed in ceremonies , & in celebration of the Masse from Rome , as b b 2. 2. 93 quaest , art. 1. arg. 3. Aquinas teacheth : who list to read more of this point , may be referred vnto D. Fulks ouerthrow of Stapletons fortresse . Thus I haue answered this first cauill of the Doctor against our religion , for I passe by the title that he giueth to Lucifer calling him the master deuill . The difference of deuills I leaue to Papists to set forth , who are sometimes too familiar with them , Tasc . temp. as Silvester , who was made Pope by the helpe of the deuill .

Luther his speach concerning the restoring of the Gospel , must be vnderstood comparatiuely : the Gospel was before his time , but it was not , in tanta luce , in such brightnes , as it hath beene since , and I trust it shall more and more increase ingratijs Papistarum , whether the Papists will or no. They may presse the truth , but they shall neuer oppresse it : they may vaunt of veritie , but they must winne the cause by force of arguments .

The second reason : the name of Catholikes .

A man may maruell that any who would perswade to religion , should make so simple an argument as this .

They which are called Catholikes are the true Church : But the Papists are called Catholikes : Ergo they are the true Church .

The proposition is false . Salvianus in the beginning of his 4. booke of prouidence , speaketh excellently of this point . Nomen sine officio nihil est . nam sicut ait quidam in scriptis suis , quid est principatus , sine meritorum sublimitate , nisi honoris titulus sine nomine . A name without the dutie is nothing , for as one faith in his writings , what is principalitie without sublimitie of good works , but a bare title of honour . For the further handling of this matter , we will consider what Catholike is . Vincentius Lyrinensis thus describeth this word Catholike . Quod ab omnibus creditum est , Catholicum est : that which is beleeued of all men is Catholike . Is Poperie then Catholike , which is not beleeued of all men ? I will name some opinions and prooue them not to be credited of all , and I will beginne with the worshipping of Images , which I will prooue not to be Catholike . Minutius Foelix in his Octauius speaketh thus , Cruces nec colimus , nec optamus , we neither worship , nor wish for Crosses Againe in the same treatise , it is demanded of Christians , Cur nullas aras habent , templa nulla , nulla nota simulachra ? why they haue no altars , no temples , no images ? The Councell of Eliberis in Spaine , haue in plaine words banished them out of Churches . Placuit picturas in Ecclesiis esse non debere , ne quod colitur aut adoratur , in parietibus depingatur . We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the Churches , least that which is worshipped or adored , be painted on walls . Sigebert in the yeare of our Lord 755. writeth , that Constantinus Jmperator Constantinopoli synodum trecentorum triginta Episcoporum congregat ; in qua edicto promulgato , de Imaginibus Dei & sanctorum eius deponendis , Ecclesiam Dei nimis scandalizat . Constantine the Emperour gathered a Councell at Constantinople of 330. Bishops in which , publishing an edict against the Images of God and the Saints , he doth too much scandalize the Church . Thus it appeareth that worshipping of Images is not Catholike .

Secondly the Papists teach , that the Church is built vpon vpon Peters person . Is this Catholike doctrine ? Ionas in his second booke of Images speaketh thus of this point , Multi & penè omnes , Petram , super quam aedificatur Ecclesia fidem intelligunt beati Petri , quae communis est totius sanctae Ecclesiae , videlicet eam quae paulò ante promissionem hanc praecesserat , id est , tu es Christus filius Dei vivi . Many and almost all vnderstand by the Rocke , on which the Church is built , the faith of blessed Peter , which is common to all the holy Church , namely that which a little before was precedent to this promise , that is to say , Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God .

Thirdly the Papists teach , that the virgin Marie was no sinner : is this catholike doctrine ? Read Aquinas in his third part , the 27. quaest. the 4. art . and his answer to the third argument , where reiecting Chrysostomes authoritie , he saith , that excessit in illis verbis , his words are too broad , yet many yeares after Chrysostome was this doctrine held . in 22. Math. Theophilact writeth that Marie was ambitiosula , tanto sibi filio subdito , somewhat ambitious , hauing such a sonne vnder her .

Fourthly the Papists teach , that Ministers may not haue wiues : is this catholike ? many hundred yeares after Christ , Priests were married . In the yeare of our Lord 1074. Hildebrand ( as Lambertus Schafuaburgensis reporteth ) decreed that , Habentes aut dimittant , aut deponantur , they which had wiues must either dismisse them or be deposed : therefore , saith the forenamed writer , Aduersus hoc decretum infremunt tota factio Clericorum , the whole companie of the Cleargie stormed against this decree . The same is also reported by Sigebert , saying that Gregorie vxorates Sacerdotes à divino officio removit novo exemplo , remooued from diuine seruice the married Priests by a new example . What should I speake of prayer in a strange tongue , of concealing the Scriptures from the people , of summoning of Councells by the Pope ? These with many other opinions , might I shew to be against diuinitie taught in the ancient Church . Pacianus thus describeth Catholike , that it is Obedientia omnium mandatorum , scilicet Dei : an obedience vnto all Gods commandements . Now let vs see whether you teach obedience vnto Gods commandements or no ? to let passe Idolatrie and other sinnes , M. Perk. ex Molano . See more of this point in the Reason of doctrine . I come to swearing . The Papists teach that they may sweare that they haue not beene at Masse , when they haue beene there . This is nothing but to prophane an oath as Aquinas testifieth , in his 2. 2. 89. quaest. art. 7. and answer to the 4. argument , saying , Quacunque arte verborum quis iuret , Deus tamen qui conscientiae testis est , ita hoc accipit , sicut ille cui iuratur intelligit : with what cunning soeuer a man doth sweare , God who is the witnesse of conscience , doth take it as he meaneth , to whom a man sweareth .

Let vs now heare the reason why the name Catholike prooueth a Church ; because they that are so named , haue on their side Scriptures , Fathers , Councells , and Martyrs : ( for of miracles we shall speake hereafter . ) This proud bragge I vtterly denie : & concerning Scriptures , I say with Salvianus in his 5. booke of prouidence , that Nos tantùm Scripturas plenas habemus , qui eas vel in fonte suo bibimus , vel certè de purissimo fonte haustas : we onely haue the Scriptures fully perfect , which either drinke them in their fountaine , or translated out of a most pure fountaine . Touching Fathers , by that which hath bin said afore , it appeareth that they are not all on their side . What should I speake of the famous Martyrs in Queene Maries daies , which died in the religion now taught in England ? Thus therefore I returne the argument :

They which are falsly called Catholikes , are not the true church : But the Papists are falsly called Catholikes : Ergo they are not the true church .

Concerning the name of Protestants , we doe not hold our selues content with it , although it be not so bad as the name of Papists : and touching the names of Calvinists , and Zwinglians , they are names invented , as Athanasians and Omousians were , by the old heretikes . But whereas he giueth some allowance to the name of Papists , it may not be tollerated , for why may they not as well be called Petrians ? and therefore I say with Nazianzen , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , In dic . Christs . I will not be named of men , beeing borne of God : In Psal. 44. and with Augustine , Sumus Christiani , non Petriani , we are Christians , not Petrians . I cannot let passe his ignorance in saying , that all heretikes haue alwaies taken their names of some one , who began that heresie . For ( not to take exception against his speach ) by the first authors of heresie , as Nestorius , Pelagius , euery meane diuine knoweth that many heretikes haue their names of their heresie , not of their author , as Apostolici , Cathari , and others . If the Lutherans haue changed the word Catholike in the Creede , draw your penne against them , and not against the church of England . But it is a perilous matter for some of our translations to say , for an heretike , a man that is the author of sects . His owne men so translate the word heresie , Act. 24. chap. & 28. chap. A great matter to english a greeke word . Thankes be to God , that you haue no other cauills against our translations . I hope such pelting will driue men from Poperie . Your saying out of Hierome galleth your selues , and prooueth you to be sectaries , as beeing named Dominicans , Franciscans , Iesuits , and with diuers other names . Therfore please not your selues any longer with a bare name , without the subiect matter : for that is like a pearle in the snowt of a swine .

The 3. reason : vnitie and consent .

Hauing answered two of the Doctors reasons , I come to handle the third , in which he vaunteth of vnitie after this manner . The Catholike religion hath varietie of doctrine , with diuersitie of manners , yet euer kept vnitie in such a peaceable manner , as neuer any disagreed in any point of doctrine .

Blush M. Doctor at this notorious vntruth , I haue in my disswasiue from Poperie gathered 20. contradictions betwixt Papists in matters of faith : and to giue you a tast of your vnitie , I will set downe your harmonie about Antichrist . Some Papists hold Mahomet to be Antichrist , Bellarmine in his 3. booke de Rom. Pont. cap. 3. This is denied by other , because , say they , Antichrist shall be one singular man .

Secondly some Papists teach , that Antichrist shall arise of the tribe of Dan : cap. 11. yet Bellarmine confesseth that this opinion is not certaine , because no scripture conuinceth it .

Thirdly the Papists teach , that Antichrist shall raigne but three yeares and an halfe , yet Hentenius confuteth this opinion .

Fourthly some Papists teach , that Antichrist shall vtterly extinguish the faith , as I prooued before . Bellarmine denieth this not without cause .

Fifthly the Rhemists say , that it may well be that Antichrist shall sit at Rome . Bellarmine will haue him to sit at Ierusalem . I will not follow any more contradictions about this opinion , but come to their vnitie in Idolatrie .

Catharine affirmeth the commandement which concerneth Images to be temporall and positiue : is not this goodly diuinitie ? others denie it . Caietan confoundeth an Idol and an Image , Bellarmine cannot beare this doctrine . Aquinas will haue the crosse of Christ to be worshipped with diuine honour , others renounce Aquinas in this point . Alphonsus de Castro counteth Serenus and Epiphanius enemies to Images , Bellarmine confuteth Alphonsus his opinion . Abulensis and Peresius teach , that Images of God are not to be made : Bellarmine like an Idolater alloweth Images of God himselfe . Augustine speaketh plainly against this diuelish diuinitie . Nulla Imago Dei coli debet nisi illa quae hoc est , quod ipse , nec ipsa pro illo , Epist. 1●9 . sed cum illo : No image of God must be worshipped , but that which is God , and that not for God , but with God . By these contrarieties euery man may see the popish harmonie . Now I reduce the Argument into a syllogisme .

Where vnitie is , there is the Church : But the Papists haue vnitie . Ergo.

The proposition and assumption are both false : and whereas he would prooue the proposition out of the 4. of the Acts , and 17. of S. Iohn , we must know that an vnitie in true doctrine is there commended , and praied for . Si vultis , saith Augustine , vivere de spiritu sancto , c ●6 . serm. de temp. tenete charitatem , amate veritatem , desiderate vnitatem , vt perveniatis ad aeternitatem . If you will liue according to the holy spirit , then imbrace loue , make much of truth , and desire vnitie , that you may come to eternitie . Vnitie therefore in veritie must bring vs to eternitie . But in sadnes is there no Church where there are dissentions ? ● book tripar . hist. 12. chap. Themistius wrote to Valens that he should not be cruell to Christians for difference in Ecclesiasticall opinions , for amongst the Pagans there were more then three hundred sects . Will you M. Doctor , cut off the Church of Corinth from the bodie of the Church , because of dissentions ? What shall become of Paul and Barnabas , Cyprian and Cornelius , Epiphanius and Chrysostome , with diuers others ? And to stay thy minde , Christian Reader , touching this point of dissentions , I desire thee first to consider , that all men haue not the same measure of the spirit , and therefore there must needes be contentions . God his gifts are diuers , to one man he giueth greater knowledge then to another : therefore Paul saith , when perfection of knowledge commeth , there shall be an vnitie in opinions , which is not to be looked for in this vale of miserie . Secondly , vaine-glorie , the mother of mischieuous contentions , is not wholly driuen out of men that liue in the Church : I would to God it were , for then many broyles would haue an ende . Maruell not then , gentle Reader , though there be varietie of opinions . I might inlarge these reasons and annex moe , but I desire breuitie . The Doctor here to amplifie our diuisions without all conscience , chargeth vs with the heresies of Anabaptists , Adamites , Striblerians , and many other , which we condemne to the pit of hell . But for a testimonie of our vnitie let our heauenly harmonie of Confessions be read , in which a man may see our consent to be greater then the Papists would wish . The scornefull name of Parlimentarie religion , I leaue to God to reuenge : ( if Queene Marie might receiue the Pope by Parliament , why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ ? )

And thus I retort the argument :

Where there are diuisions , there is no Church : But amongst Papists are diuisions . Ergo.

In the ende of this reason he concludeth with a manifest vntruth , saying , that all decrees of lawfull Councells and of Popes doe agree in points of doctrine one with another . Good God! what dare not this man affirme ? I passe by Councells , and come to Popes . Pope Nicholas auoucheth that Baptisme may be giuen and ministred onely in the name of Christ : which is a false opinion , as Bellarmine himselfe confesseth . Pope Pelagius contrariwise decreed that it ought to be ministred in the name of the blessed Trinitie . Aquinas 3. par. quaest. 66. art. 6. In epist. 1. ad Cor. cap. 7. But let Erasmus speake concerning this matter : Qui sit , how commeth it to passe , saith he , that the decrees of this Pope fight with the decrees of that Pope . That I say nothing of Formosus , doe not the decrees of Iohn the 22. and Nicholas fight one against another ? what should I speake of Innocentius , and Coelestinus , Pelagius , and Gregories decrees , one contrarie to another ? By these examples appeareth the Doctors vanitie .

The fourth reason : conuersion of countries .

In this fourth reason the framer of it according to his custome , beginneth with an vntruth , saying , that all countries which euer beleeued in Christ , were first conuerted to his faith , by such as either were precisely sent , or at least wise had their authoritie from the Pope . The Apostles which receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe , not from Peter , conuerted many countries . That the Apostles receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe , the scriptures are plaine : in the 20. of Iohn our Sauiour saith , As the father hath sent me , so send I you : what can be more plaine ? Paul saith of himselfe , that he was an Apostle neither of men , nor by men , but by Iesus Christ . How many countries did Paul conuert ? Concerning this land I spake something before . Read Theodoret his 4. booke and 3. chap. where he reckneth England amongst the Christian lands . Chrysostome as the same writer testifieth , comparavit viros aemulatores Apostolicorum laborum , eosque ad Scythias misit , prouided men followers of the Apostles labours , and sent them to the Scythians . The Indians were conuerted by Frumentinus , whome Athanasius ordained Bishop , as the same author testifieth in his 1. booke and 12. chap. The people of Iberia were conuerted per captivam mulierem , by a woman that was a captiue , Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 10. by all which cleare and pregnant proofes euery man may see the boldnes of the authors assertion . But now I come to reduce his reason into a syllogisme :

They which take paines in conuersion of countries , hold the true religion : But the Papists take paines in conuersion of countries : ergo .

I denie the proposition , and say to the Papists , as our blessed Sauiour spake to the Pharisies : Math. 23. woe be to you Papists , for ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession , and when he is made , ye make him twofold more the child of hell . Heretikes haue laboured to conuert , or rather to peruert men . Paul in the 2. Tim. 3.13 . affirmeth , that euill men shall waxe worse and worse , deceiuing and beeing deceiued . The Arrians peruerted many kingdomes , Read Sigebert in his chap. de regno Gothorum . as witnes Theodoret , and others writers . As touching the conuersion of the west Indians , if things be true that are reported ; Sadeel . con. are . pos. in novo illo orbe amplius decies centena millia barbarorum aut fame aut gladio perierunt : in the new found world aboue tenne hundred thousand haue perished either by famine or by sword . If our Sauiour Christ had saide , Goe kill all nations , when he saide , Goe teach all nations , he had fitted the Papists humour . What Gregorie spent in founding Seminaries to restore Catholike religion , I know not , but this I am sure of , that Papists haue taken paines in contriuing of treasons here in England . But to returne to the Indies : The people there liued not onely without all manner of knowledge of God , but also wilde and naked without any ciuill gouernement : Iuel . 42. pag. beeing in this miserable estate , some worshipped the sunne , some familiar deuills : what maruell then if they were easily ledde into any religion , especially carrying such a shew of apparrell and other ceremonies ? But doe not the Protestants take paines in winning of soules vnto God ? Calvine , not to speake of others , read almost two hundred lectures euery yeare , and preached aboue two hundred sermons . Who conuerted England , Scotland , Ireland , and other countries from Antichrist to Christ , from the Masse to the Messias , from Images to the seruice of the liuing God ? did not poore Luther , Zwinglius , Oecolampadius , and other Protestants the ministers of England , labour in their owne charges preaching in season , and out of season ? God is as well glorified in the conuersion of a soule here as in other countries . But doe the Papists now labour in conuerting of soules ? in times past it was not so ; hodie proh dolor , saith Aeneas Sylvius , Lib. 1. de ge●● . con. Basil . now alas he is a rare Prelate which doth not preferre temporall things before spirituall things . Againe , Nos ignavia nostra nimia vitae cupiditate , Christianam religionem ex toto orbe in angulum redegimus : we by our lasinesse and great desire of life haue drawne religion out of the world into a corner of the same . Clemangis in his booke which he wrote of the corrupt state of the Church , speaketh thus : Multò aequanimiùs ferunt decem millium animarum iacturam , quàm decem solidorum . Pontifices suas traditiones divinis longè mandatis anteponunt : they had rather loose ten thousand soules then tenne shillings : the Popes preferre their traditions farre before Gods commandements . Thus then I returne the argument :

They which esteeme money , more then the soules of men , are not the true Church : But the Papists esteeme money more then the soules of men . Ergo.

Whether M. Calvin sent ministers or no into new found lands I know not , neither am I priuie to the successe they had . Ezekiel was sent to the Iewes , that they might know that there had beene a Prophet amongst them ; the fault is not in the doctrine , but in the men who resist the same . I will not dispute whether a wicked man may be a meanes to winne soules , as a good master bestoweth a good almes by the ministerie of an euill seruant : so also the mercifull Lord may call one to repentance , by the meanes of another , though he be an vnpenitent person . The Doctors rayling vpon Luther , Calvin , and Peter Martyr , calling his wife fustilugges , fitteth the spirit of a Papist . If Peter Martyrs lawfull wife deserueth the name of fustilugges , what name doe the popish priests concubines deserue ? In that our Ministers trauell not without their wiues , 1. Cor. ● . I answer with Paul , Haue we not power to lead about a sister a wife ? Beza his epistles and pistols are but words to fill vp pages , and to wast paper . But haue not the Protestants for-gone any worldly wealth , to spread abroad religion , why are they then exiles , and haue witnessed their religion with their blood . In a word , Poperie gaineth more by wealth and armes , then by conscience , and if it gaineth any soundly it is by some reliques of truth which remaineth with them .

The fifth reason : largenes of dominion through multitude of beleeuers .

That the Church which the Messias was to plant , must be dispersed throughout all nations , and kingdomes , as the holy Prophets most plainly foreshewed , we acknowledge : neither needed the Doctor to haue produced so many testimonies . I may well say of the Doctor , as did Aristippus of Dyonisius his liberalitie : Tutò Dyonisius , inquit , liberalis est his enim qui multis indigent , pauca mittit , Platoni verò qui nihil accipit , plurima . Dyonisius , saith Aristippus , maintaineth all his liberalitie well enough , for to the needie he sendeth fewe things , but to Plato which lacketh nothing , many gifts . Euen so the Doctor in needelesse matters heapeth vp many testimonies : but in matters of question , he hath no proofe , but bold assertions . If he had prooued that these prophesies are verified in no religion , but onely in the religion , which now the Papists hold , he had done well ; but hic labor , hoc opus , this is such paines as would make the Doctor sweat . As the Prophets foretold the largenes of Christs religion , 2. Thes● . ● . so Paul prophesied of an Apostasie from the same : as the Rhemists confesse , and as the same men write vpon the 12. of the Rev. where S. Iohn foresheweth that the Church shall flie into the wildernes , that now in England , The Church Catholike . ( because it hath no publicke state or regiment , nor open free exercise of functions ) may be said to be fled into the desart . so say I of our Church in the raigne of Antichrist . And thus I conclude :

As the Papists Church is now in England , though not visible , so was the Protestants in Antichrists raigne : But the Papists Church is now in England . Ergo.

The proposition is manifest by S. Iohn , who foretelleth the flight of the Church into the wildernes . Let Reinerus speake , Catal. test . ●ec . who was a popish inquisitour , he saith that the poore men of Lyons were more pernitious to the Romish Church , then all other sects , for three causes : first because it hath beene of longer continuance : for some say that it hath endured since the time of Sylvester , others say it hath endured since the Apostles time . The second cause is , because it is more generall : for there is almost no land in which this sect doth not creepe . The third cause is , for that all other sects doe bring in an horrour with their heinousnes of their blasphemies against God . This sect of the Leonists hath a great shewe of godlines , because they liue iustly before men , and beleeue all things well concerning God , and all the articles which are contained in the Creede , they blaspheme and hate onely the Church of Rome . This is the testimonie of a cruell enemie and persecutor of them : whereby euery man may see the Church to haue continued maugre Antichrist . These men are knowne to haue continued in Bohemia , Calabria , Piemont , and other places . Their faith is printed in the booke called Fasciculus rerum expetendarum , where who listeth may read the same . But now I reduce his argument into a syllogisme :

They which haue the largest scope are the true Church : But the Papists haue the largest scope . Ergo.

The proposition beseemeth an Ethnicke better then a Christian : might not the heathen haue made the same against Christ ? The Pharisies argue indeede after the same manner , Ioh. 7. Doth any of the Rulers beleeue in Christ ? so the Papists say , Doe any Popes , Cardinalls , embrace Luthers doctrine ? In the 1. King . 22. there are foure hundred Prophets against Michaiah , yet Michaiah had the truth . In the third of Daniel three onely resisted the Kings edict . Esa. 1.9 . The Prophet Esai affirmeth , that except the Lord had reserued a remnant , they had bin as Sodom and Gomorrah . Elias complaineth that he was left alone . In the daies of Achab , the altar of God was remooued and an idolatrous altar by the high Priests consent was set vp . 1. king . 16. and chap. 17.19 . it is said that Iudah did not keepe the Lords commandements , but walked in the errours of Israel . Likewise Manasses and Amon built an idolatrous altar , 2. king . 21.4 , 5. and 22. v. might not they haue made the same argument ? Lib. de bre. vitae . Well saith Seneca , Non tam benè cum rebus humanis agitur , vt meliora pluribus placeant , argumentum pessimi turba est : It is not so well with humane affaires , that most men like the best things ; the multitude is an argument of the worst . Bellarmine hath this ingenious confession , Si sola vna provincia retineret veram fidem , adhuc verè & propriè , diceretur Ecclesia Catholica . If onely one Prouince should retaine the faith , yet that Prouince should be the true Church . Therefore largenesse of dominion is not a note of the true Church . But it is worthie to be noted , first that this Doctour reckneth the largenesse of the Romane religion but for a thousand yeares : for space then of sixe hundred yeares our Church had large dominion : antiquitie then is with vs . Verily , if our Church was ample for sixe hundred yeares , I make no doubt of our religion : and indeede the largenesse which the Prophets foretold was verified of the Apostolicall Church , and by consequent of ours . Let the Scriptures iudge whether we teach the same doctrnie , that the Apostles did or no. I would not haue the Doctour to thinke that for a thousand yeares we had no church : for that we alwaies had a Church , I prooued before out of their owne writers . Images were reiected by many Bishops seauen hundred yeares after Christ : Ministers were likewise married , as I shewed before , for a thousand yeares . And not to name many other points of doctrine , Bellarmine prooueth the seauen Sacraments out of Peter Lombard : is not this goodly doctrine which can bring no better authors for it then the master of sentences ? Barnard denieth merits , Bellarmine answereth that he did it of humilitie : at sancti , humiles esse debent , non mendaces ; Saints must be humble , not liars . In the yeare of our Lord , one thousand , one hundred and seauen , the poore men of Leodium prooued Pope Paschal to be Antichrist : In epist. ad Pas . Hactenus interpretabar ( say they ) ideo veluisse Petrum per Babilonem , significare Romam , quia tunc temporis Roma confusa erat Idololatria & omni spurcitie , at nunc dolor meus interpretatur , quod Petrus prophetico spiritu dicens , ecclesiam in Babilone collectam praedicit confusionem dissentionis , qua hodie scinditur ecclesia . I was wont to interpret that Peter by Babylon , would signifie Rome , because Rome at that time was confused with idolatrie and filthinesse , but now my sorrow doth interpret vnto me , that Peter calling the Church gathered togither in Babylon , foresaw by the spirit of prophesie the confusion of dissention wherewith the Church at this day is rent in pieces . And in the yeare of our Lord 1240. Cran● . lib. ● . Met. 18. many preachers in high Germanie did freely preach against the Pope . Crantzius a man who greatly fauoured the Pope , saith thus of them : Quidam pulsatis campanis & conuocatis baronibus terrarum , certaine ringing the bells and calling the Barons of the countries , are affirmed to preach publikely , that the Pope was an heretike , his Bishops and Prelates Symonists and heretikes . Bertrame eight hundred yeares after Christ was an enemie vnto Transubstantiation : but you haue purged him to your perpetuall shame , as testifieth your Index expurgatorius : the title is , vt liber Bertrami , how the booke of Bertrame beeing amended may be tolerated . But let it be graunted that the truth of doctrine was not publike for many yeares , yet might there be a Church . For at the comming of our Sauiour Christ the Pharisies had the gouernement and were blinde guides , yet was there a Church , and a number of chosen people , as Ioseph , Marie , Simon , and Anna. In Elias time when religion was corrupt , the Lord had thousands which neuer bowed their knees to Baal .

But I returne the argument :

Largenes of dominion is a note of the Church : But for many hundred yeares after Christ , our Church had largenes of dominion . Ergo.

Secondly the Doctor fearing least our Church should flourish and dilate it selfe , affirmeth that the Church is now old , & to make her flourish in her old age is to make her a monster . Verily we acknowledge that shee flourished in her young age , ( if these titles of young and old may be attributed to her : ) but shall not the Church flourish in her old age , as you speake , M. Doctour ? what then is become of largenes of dominion ? If largenes of dominion be a note of the true Church , then it shall be alwaies ample and large . Indeede thankes be to God , our Church now is ample , as testifie England , Scotland , Denmarke , Suetia , Saxonie , Helvetia , and other countries , and therefore the Doctour varieth in this point . But that Antichrist shall be reuealed , and the Church increase , it is plaine out of the 2. Thess. 2. where Paul prophesieth , that the Lord shall consume him with the spirit of his mouth . This to be done we see it daily with our eyes , for by the preaching of the Gospel Antichrist is continually lessened . Moreouer in this reason the Doctour affirmeth , that persecution of any moment is not against Papists , but onely in England . The persecution of Papists in England is for treason , as their owne writings testifie . The title of the booke is this , Important considerations which ought to mooue all true Catholikes to acknowledge that the proceedings of her Maiestie since the beginning of her highnes raigne , haue bin both mild and mercifull . The Rhemists are contrarie to this Doctour , for they writing vpon the 20. of the Rev. affirme Catholikes to be persecuted not onely in England , but also in Scotland , Flaunders , and other places : thus well heretikes agree amongst themselues . To be briefe : the Papists are so persecuted , that they are benè habiti , well liking as all men know , and haue affluentiam honorum , store of goods . But the Doctour desireth to be told whether against all learned Physitians , and against all Lawyers , one or two of later yeares are to be credited . I answer , if they haue the truth on their sides , they are . Might not Michaiah haue beene posed with this question , who was but one against foure hundred prophets ? Did not Paphnutius stand vp in the Councell of Nice , and teach that a heauie yoke should not be laid on those which were dedicated to the ministerie . Here was one against that famous Councell . This question might well haue beene demaunded of Eugenius , who would not obey the Councell of Basill . 1●00 . de gest . conc . Ba. Aeneas Silvius writeth thus , Neque in Concilio dignitas patrum , sed ratio spectanda est , in a Councell the dignitie of men is not to be regarded , but reasons . And againe , Non ergo cuiusvis Episcopi mendacium quamvis ditissimi , veritati praeponam pauperis praesbyteri . I will not preferre Bishops vntruths , before an Elders truth , though one be rich and the other very poore . What should I speake of Athanasius condemned in the Councell of Millan ? Panormitane is plaine , Whi●ak . 34. p. cont. Dur. Plus credendum est vel simplici Laico scripturam proferenti , quàm toti simul Concilio . A lay-man is more to be beleeued , alleadging scripture , then a whole Councell . Hierome translated the scriptures according to the Hebrew , whereas before the authoritie of the 70. Ann. 39● . interpreters was currant : yet saith Sigebert , praevaluit authoritas Hebraica veritatis : the authoritie of the Hebrew truth preuailed . Hieroms act was against inveteratum vsum Ecclesiae , the auncient custome of the Church . Whereas he calleth Luther a loose Apostata , and M. Calvin a soare backt priest for Sodomie , I doubt not , but that for such slaunders of these men , good men shall more and more abhorre poperie . And for thy satisfying , Christian Reader , I desire thee to read that which Erasmus hath written concerning Luther : and that which is printed by Beza concerning Calvins life . Sodomie is too common among Papists , as witnesseth Picus Mirandula in his oration to Leo the tenth , in these words , Sacrae aedes ac templa lenonibus ac calamytis commissa : Churches and temples are committed to bauds , and boies abused contrarie to nature . With Picus agreeth Mantuan , Sanctus ager scurris , venerabilis ara cynaedis . seruit honorandae divum Ganymedibus aedes . The Church lands are giuen to common lesters , the sacred altars allotted to wantons , the temples of Saints to boies prouided for filthie lusts . Lastly whereas he faith , that if he should refuse the Catholike Romane religion , his Ancetours would vse such speeches as these ; doest thou condemne all our doings ? doest thou send vs all to hell ? &c. I answer that God hath not referred vs from his word to our fathers : Walke not in the precepts of your fathers , Ezek. 20. neither obserue their manners , nor defile your selues with their Idols , saith the Lord . We condemne not our fathers , except they condemned themselues . Dei iudicia occulia , sed semper iusta , Gods iudgements are secret , but alwaies iust . If our fathers held the foundation , ( as I hope many did ) they might be saued . Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti : he that erreth of ignorance , sinneth lesse then he to whome knowledge is reuealed . I conclude with Cyprian , Si solus Christus audiendus , if onely Christ must be heard , we must not regard what any before vs hath thought meete , but what Christ himselfe hath done : for a man must not follow custome , but Gods truth . And with Prudentius , who answereth Symmachus his obiection , Nobis sequendi sunt parentes , we must follow our fathers . frustrà igitur solitis prava observatio inhaeres , in vaine dost thou cleaue to custome ô wicked obedience .