A TRVE NARRATION of the conference betweene Du Moulin and Gontier , seconded by my Lady BARONESSE of Salignac .

PETER Du Moulin hapning about three of the clocke in the after-noone to meete with Monsieur de Liembrune before his gate in Marsh streete , was requested by him to steppe vp along with him vnto his chamber , where hee was no sooner come , but he saw the roome full of Ladies ; among which , one of them , at the first on set , entreated him to explaine the 31. article , in the confession of the faith of the reformed Churches . Du Moulin answered , that if it pleased her to take the paines to come home to his house , he would do the best he could to satisfie her . Presently vpon that another Lady replied and said , that we ought at all times be readie to giue an account of our faith : that Du Moulin ought not deny to instruct them herein which did demand it of him : whereunto Du Moulin answered , that hee knew well enough , they did not aske this for any desire they had to be instructed ; and to dispute about religion with women , which tattle altogether ; and after they are gone publish what they please , were to wrong the truth of religion . One among them replied , that she could not satisfie her selfe as concerning this Article , and that it was often obiected to her , how that our Ministers were not able to giue an account of their Mission and Vocation . Du Moulin answered , that he wondred much how she forgat to aske a reason of them for the iustifying of theirs : and that had she so done , she should haue found them lesse able to satisfie her : that euery one which presumes to aske a reason of another for the maintaining of his vocation , ought to be sure that he is able to iustifie his owne , and be readie at any time to yeeld a reason . He had no sooner spoken these wordes , but in comes Gontier , with two others , which brought many bookes along with them ; Gontier at his first entrance asked what was the matter ? what it was that was said there ? Why my Lady heere ( said Du Moulin ) requires a reason of me to iustifie my Mission : and I told her , that she should haue demanded the like of you , for the iustifying of yours .

Gontier .

This is onely a shift to rid your necke out of the coller .

Du Moulin .

It is no shift at all : for whosoeuer is so bold , as to demaund a reason of another for his vocation , bindes himselfe thereby to giue an account of his owne . But if you will confesse that you are not able to defende yours , I will presently heere take vpon mee to defende mine .

Gont.

Pray sir , be not cholericke ; you doe not heare me acknowledge any such matter .

Du Moul.

I speake nothing , but what is apparantly true ; and do here vndertake to proue that you haue no vocation .

Gont.

Who hath giuen you authoritie to speake so saucily to your superiours .

Du Moul.

As for your dignitie I denie that you haue any such superioritie ouer me . But to the point , I heere maintaine that you haue no commission ; for you call your selues Priests , and haue receiued this order of priesthood in this manner : which is , that the Bishop , hauing anointed your fingers , and imposed his hands , saith vnto you ; Receiue power to offer vp sacrifice to God , and to celebrate the Masse , as well for the liuing as the dead : By this meanes he hath made you Sacrificers to sacrifice Iesus Christ . I demaund of you therefore in what place of Scripture Bishops are authorized to establish such sacrificing Priests in the Church .

Gont. That is easily prooued , out of the second and fifth Chapters of the first Epistle to Timothie ; bring mee a new Testament hither : hereupon a Testament was brought him , wherein he read these two Chapters , which was not a little tedious to the standers by ; and finding nothing there that he desired , said to one of his company ( which was his assistant ) go and fetch me my * * He did the like at Amiens against Monsieur Hucher being troubled to answer , he sent to fetch his concordance . Concordaunce , which being brought , he stood turning the leaues along time without saying a word : Du Moulin being weary of staying for his answere , said vnto him , if this disgrace had lighted vpon me to haue beene put to silence , and to send for my Concordaunce , I should be ashamed euer to shew my face more in any honest company : wherupon Monsieur de Liembrune tould Gontier , Sir I am ashamed to see , that which I do : for you haue often told me that the Ministers durst not speak a word before you , and now I see you driuen to such straites , that you haue not a word to say : After halfe an houres silence , I sought ( said Gontier ) a place of Scripture , wherein there is mention made of imposition of handes : I will ease you , said Du Moulin , of the paines and presently turned to the place , which is in the 4. Chapter of the first Epistle to Timothy . Gontier red the words which were these , Despise not the gift that is in thee , which was giuen thee by prophesie , with the laying on of the hands of the company of the elders : Note withall that these elders were Priests , and that Greeke word imports as much .

Du Moul.

This doth not proue at all that Bishops haue authoritie from God to establish sacrificers in the Church .

Gontier in steede of answering , tooke a Bible , and turning himselfe towards Monsieur de Liembrune , said that he would shew , that vnder the old law , the Church was neuer without Sacrificers .

Du Moul.

That is nothing to the purpose , we speake of the authoritie which Bishops haue to make Sacrificers vnder the new Testament .

Gont. Whereupon Gontier being at a stand , asked for pen and inke , which being brought , hee falls a writing without speaking a word , and then blotted out that which he had written , which made the company wonder at him .

Du Moul s . aid vnto him , you gaine time , and vnder the colour of writing take leisure to thinke vpon some thing to saue your selfe .

Gont. Laying aside his writing entreated Du Moulin to set downe his proposition in writing .

Du Moul. Then at his entreatie writ these words . Let any man shew me out of the word of God , that the Bishops of the Romish Church haue authoritie to establish Sacrificers in the Church .

Gont.

I will proue vnto you that the Apostles were Sacrificers .

Du Moul.

This is not the thing in question , neither doth it proue that which I demaund .

Gont.

It is sufficient if I proue that the Apostles were Priests and did offer vp sacrifices .

Du Moul.

Since you are at a stay , and that I cannot draw any proofe from you of the power that Bishops haue , to establish sacrificing Priests in the Church , let vs see how you proue that the Apostles were sacrificers . Hereupon Gontier tooke his pen and wrote that which followes .

Gont.

This word , to Sacrifice , in his primary signification imports as much as to do an holy thing ; but the Apostles were ordained to do an holy thing , therefore the Apostles were ordained to sacrifice .

Du Moul.

We haue nothing to doe here with Etymologies , but with the sence of this word , to sacrifice , as it is taken in the Church of Rome , to wit , to offer vp really vnto God the body of Iesus Christ in a propitiatorie sacrifice for the liuing and the dead . To pray vnto God is to do an holy thing , yet neuerthelesse euery one that praieth is not therefore a sacrificer in this sence : whereupon it followes that the conclusion is nothing to the purpose , since the word , to sacrifice , is taken therein in another sence then we take it .

Gont.

I haue proued that which I was to proue .

Du Moul.

I denie it , this is nothing to the purpose , you tie your selues to the word , so to auoide the thing .

Gont.

I haue done enough , and you haue granted what I demanded .

Du Moul.

I do not agree with you in that , and doe call the company to witnesse , if there be any one here which hath hitherto heard Master Doctour speake one word to proue that Bishops haue authoritie from God to establish Sacrificers in the Church : or that the Apostles were Sacrificers , to sacrifice Iesus Christ .

Gont. Whereat all holding their tongues , Gontier answered and said that Iesus Christ had said vnto his Apostles : Do this , and thereby commanded them to sacrifice .

Du Moul.

I denie that , to do this , signifies to sacrifice .

Gont.

This word , Do , is referred to his body .

Du Moul.

Suppose it were so ; yet to do his body is not to sacrifice it .

Gont.

In the 26. of Saint Mathew it is said that the bloud of Christ is shed for the remission of sinnes , now where the bloud of Christ is shed there is a sacrifice ; and all that is auaileable to the remission of sinnes is a sacrifice .

Du Moul.

That I denie : if it were so , Baptisme should be a sacrifice seeing that that also is auailable for the remission of sinnes : nor is it true , that wheresoeuer any bloud is shed for the remission of sin , there should of necessitie be a sacrifice , except this bloud be offered to God , for without this it is no sacrifice : Also it is requisite that this shedding of bloud be made by death , but in the Eucharist you cannot shew me , either that this bloud is offered vnto God , or that this shedding of bloud is made by death .

Gont.

In the 26. of Mathew it is expressely said that the bloud of Christ is : and withall hee went to write this argument the bloud shed which is ioined with death , is a sacrifice , but the bloud shed in the sacrament is ioined with death , therefore it is a sacrifice .

Du Moul.

You take that for granted which you are to proue , to wit , that the bloud which you say to haue been shed in the Sacrament hath beene offered vnto God ; Secondly I answere , that you doe fallaciously adde this same word , Ioine , to that which I haue said : that in the 26. of Mathew it is truly said of the shedding of bloud which by nature is ioined with death , But I say that when the very bloud of Christ is really shed in the Sacrament , yet it is neuerthelesse not shed by death .

Gont.

By this answere you seeme to allow of my Maior .

Du Moul.

You speake nothing , neither haue you produced any thing yet , to proue that Iesus Christ hath offered his bloud to God in the Eucharist .

Gont.

I haue proued it sufficiently , I need not proue it againe .

Du Moul.

Proue this , or confesse that you cannot .

Gont. Gontier hereupon tooke his pen and writ as followes : The bloud shed for the remission of sinnes is contained in the institution of the Eucharist : in the 26. Chap. 28. verse of Saint Mathew .

Du Moul.

This doth not enforce at all , that Iesus Christ did offer his bloud vnto God in the Eucharist .

Gont. Hereupon after some silence , and complainte of the Ladies , desiring vs to conferre about some other matter , at last Gontier stood vp vpon his legges , and framed an argument ; which he would not write , but Du Moulin writ it as he told it him : the argument was this , The bloud of Iesus Christ which is shed for the remission of sinnes , must of necessitie be offered vnto God , but in the institution of the Eucharist contained in 26 Chapt. 28. verse of Saint Mathew the bloud is shed for the remission of sinnes , therefore it must needes be offered vnto God .

Du Moul.

I denie that the maior proposition is alwaies true , for should the very bloud of Christ Iesus be shed in that same action of the Eucharist , it would not follow , that it were offered vnto God for a sacrifice : for it might be offered or presented to the Communicants , and not vnto God : It is sufficient that he hath beene offered on the crosse : As for the second proposition , I acknowledge that the bloud of Iesus Christ was shed , but vpon the crosse : Saint Mathew saith truly that the bloud of the Lord is shed , but hee meanes vpon the crosse ; as the Romish Bible witnesseth ; and the very Masse , which turne it in the future , effundetz , that the bloud of the Lord shall be shed , I aske of Mr. Doctour whether he will renounce his Bible , and his Masse .

Gont. Gontier taking pen and inke to answere blotted out part of that which Du Moulin had writ ; Du Moulin complained thereof , and shewed it to the companie , Gontier exeused himselfe , and said he did it vnwittingly , afterward he began to write these words this offring cannot be made vnto the people . Afterward he paused vpon it , and blotted out that which he had written ; then passing that ouer , he posts to the second article of Du Moulins answere ; who required him to answere to the first article : Gontier answered that he would not answere to it at all : and that in his answering he would haue to do with those parts which hee thought most feeblest : Du Moulin prest him againe , saying that his conclusion was weake , whilest that one of his propositions remained still denied : Gontier refused againe : Some that sate there comming vnto him , whilst he did thus delay , vrged him vnto it , yet he persisted in his refusall ; but vppon the second article he said , that Du Monlin denied his owne Bible ; which saith , is shed , and not shall be shedde .

Du Moul. Answered that our translation was turned faithfully according to the Greeke , and that this did proue nothing , but that the exposition of the Romish Church which the bibles approued by the counsell of Trent and the Masse it selfe doth carry , is false .

Gont. Gontier then made one of Robert Stephens Greeke Testaments be brought vnto him , and for to weaken the authoritie of the Greeke text said that many things there had beene changed , and that at the end of the booke there was a table of more then fiue hundred seuerall readings .

Du Moul. Answered that these diuers readings did not alter the sense at all ; that all this inueighing against the originall of the new-testament did not help him a iot to proue that which as yet he could not proue : to wit , that Iesus Christ offered vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist , and he called vpon Gontier to proue it , Gontier continuing in denying to proue it to him , and the disputation being there at a stay , all the Ladies to gratifie him entreated them to talke of some other subiect , and said that this matter was to deepe for their capacities .

A new matter proposed .

ONe of the Ladies therefore requested that these words might be expounded , This is my body . Du Moulin . Answered and said : That no man doubted of the truth of these words , and that wee should beleeue the Scripture according to the exposition that it carries of it selfe : that these words , This is my body , were thus expounded by the Apostle Saint Paul 1. Cor. 10. chap. 16. vers . The bread which wee breake is the communion of the body of Christ ; An exposition which the Church of Rome doth reiect , not beleeuing at all that it is bread , nor that we breake bread ; nor that this bread so broken is the communion of the body of Christ , seeing that it is his very body : Hereunto adde , that the Euangelists do with a ioint consent witnesse , that Iesus Christ broke bread and gaue it : He tooke bread broke it , and gaue it : Therewith the Church of Rome , denies , not beleeuing that hee gaue bread : Nay which is more , it denies these words ; This is my body : For seeing the word , This , signifies that which he gaue , and seeing that he gaue bread , the sense of these words , This is my body , is , This bread is my body , the which the Church of Rome denies .

Gontier on the contrarie opposed against this , that Saint Paul had said in the Eucharist , that the body of our Lord is broken for vs : that the bread whereof hee speakes , saying The bread which we breake is his flesh , as it is said in the sixt of Saint Iohn , The bread which I will giue is my flesh .

Du Moul. Replied and said that herein Gontier contradicted the Church of Rome , which doth not beleeue at all , that the Lords body is broken in the Eucharist , and asked of Gontier whether he would subscribe to this : That the Church of Rome doth beleeue that the body of the Lord is broken in the Eucharist : that Gontier by this word , Bread , meaning the body of Christ makes the words of Saint Paul ridiculous , making him to say , that , the body of Christ , which wee breake , is the communion of the body of Christ . That in that place of Saint Iohn he speakes not at all of the Eucharist , but promiseth to yeeld himselfe vnto death , as he makes manifest by the words following : The bread which I will giue , is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world , now he did not giue himselfe for the life of the world , but in his death .

Gont. Hereunto Gontier answered nothing , but only this , that these words , I will giue , being twise repeated were taken in two seuerall significations . Afterward being required to subscribe , that the Church of Rome doth beleeue that the body of Christ is broken in the Sacrament ; He tooke paper and writ : Christ hath broken his body in the Eucharist : Saint Paul : 1. Cor. 11. vers . 14. which was not that which was demanded of him : Hereupon being required to speake his minde freely , and tell in his conscience , whether he thought the Apostle Saint Paul did speake truth , saying , that we breake bread : He answered flatly that he would answere no more then he had done alreadie ; which moued one of the Gentlemen that sate by ( Master Paupart by name ) who came in at the latter end of the conference , to say vnto him , wee haue brought our eares but it seemes you want a mouth .

This done Gontier being prest a new , to proue , that Iesus Christ hath offered his bloud to God in the Eucharist , forsooke the battaile , and being ashamed of himselfe , and cleane out of heart retired into one of the corners of the chamber , where being all alone he falls a writing what he thought best in a paper apart , which when he had shewed vpon the table , a little after hee toare in peeces snatching it out of the handes of my Lady of Liembrune who was willing to haue kept it .

He therefore giuing roome my Lady Baronesse of Salignac succeeded in his place .

The vpshot of the conference .

MY Ladies discourse tended to this end : I haue ( said she ) withdrawne my selfe from the religion wherein I was bred , after I came once to the through discussing of the cause ; I haue spent foure whole yeares in sounding of this ; I haue looked vpon all the Fathers Latine and Greeke , I kept a man of purpose to translate them ; I haue found that the Fathers of the foure first ages are conformable in all things to the faith of the Church of Rome , hereupon I was confirmed in mine opinion , and my conuersation hath turned diuerse others .

Du Moul. Said , Madame since you vnderstand that which you do so well , giue me leaue to aske you , if you do not call vpon the Virgine Mary , and if the forme of your praier , wherein you call vpon her , be not Aue Maria &c. yes said she : Then Du Moulin said vnto her , you do not therefore vnderstand what you do , for by speaking thus you thinke you pray to the Virgine Mary , but indeed you pray vnto God for her , saying vnto her , Mary the Lord protect thee , the Lord bee with thee &c. Also Madam , I thinke you haue not forgot the causes , which moued you to this change . For example can you shew vs any places of the Scripture , wherein wee are commaunded to paint God , and to make carued images of the trinitie in stone : The Lady answered that she would not take vpon her to prooue that in the presence of a Doctour : Du Moulin then shewed her the 4. Chapter of Deuteron . at the 15. vers. and following , where God forbids any image to bee made like vnto him ; She on the contrary alleaged the images of the Cherubins ; But Du Moulin told her that she spake of the images of God , and that a Cherubin was no God .

As for the images of Creatures , he asked her , if since her change of religion , she had seene any commaundement of God for the worshipping of creatures images : Gontier did releeue her a farre of , crying out of his corner where he was retired ; Madame , instance in the brasen Serpent , being the image of Christ , who was both God and man , tell him withall , that there was sacrifice and incense offered before the Cherubins .

Du Moul. Answered that the brasen Serpent , was no image of Iesus Christ , but a figure of his office , and sauing vertue ; that suppose it were his image , yet it was not an image of his diuinitie : that he could neuer find that the Israelites did worship it , but that they were taxed for idolatrie : and lastly that there was neuer any sacrifice or incense offered vp before the Cherubins , there being alwaies a vaile interposed . Shee heereupon had recourse againe to the Fathers ; affirming that shee had read them all . Du Moulin tolde her that it was impossible , first in respect of the multitude of bookes , and then because of the difficultie therof to her , which vnderstood neither Greeke nor Latine . That twenty yeares were too little for him to doe it : and that shee must needes aske twice as long : Hee entreated her to name some Father among others , which shee had read : shee named Chrysostome for an example . Du Moulin said , praie Madam shew me but one place in him which you doe best vnderstand : then she strained courtesie , saying that being as she was a mother of a family , she could not be wholly at leisure : Afterwards she brought foorth a whole bedroll of the Fathers , wherein shee tooke the Greeke for the Latine , saying that Tertullian was the disciple of the Apostles ; that Cyprian was his disciple in the 150. yeare of our Lord , for which shee was taken vp by Gontier which heard it a farre off . Who raising himselfe vp , gently tooke his leaue of the company : Du Moulin told him as he was going foorth , that if we were castawayes and damned creatures , as they reported , they should then by the lawes of Ch●istian charity haue compassion vpon vs : and I am amazed that you which heere shew your selfe to bee of so yeelding a nature , should yet neuerthelesse preach bloud and sedition ( as all those tell me which goe to heare you ) Gontier answered , you are misinformed : I haue giuen an accoun● to the King for that which I did , I would hazard my life for your good ; After some complement the company departed . Two dayes after , my Lord of Liembrune meeting with the same Ladies in Saint Nicholas des Chamans , hee enquired of them what the reason was that father Gontier was so astonished , and did stay at a st●nd in his answering , who sayd that ( as he himselfe told them ) he did this to cheere vp my Lady of Liembrune who wept for feare he should else haue afflicted her a new .

PETER DV MOVLINS ANSWER TO THE Letters of M. Gontier written to the King , concerning the Subiect of this Conference .

SInce the religion of Rome is become a marchandize , they which teach it study how to put trickes vpon men , but they doe them so slouenly , and performe them with so little slight , that ( as it seems ) they are willing to do vs a pleasure in disgracing themselues ; The letters of Monsieur Gontier vpon this subiect shew this which I say to be true ; wherin he bragges of the conuersion of my Lady of Mazancourt , as the prize of his victorie ; though she in the yeare 1596. in the moneth of Iune , in the Church of Sechelles publikely forswore our religion on her marriage day , and protested that she would liue in the Church of Rome : and neuer since hath she turned to vs , or made any shew of professing our religion . See then what a new conquest here is , he hath spoiled vs of that which wee neuer had , hee hath killed a person already dead , hee hath made a Lady forsweare our religion , which had done it a douzen yeres before ; and gained so excellent a victory , to the end the people should say , This was done by the dexterity of venerable Father Gontier : Not vnlike him , who hauing bought an hare , tied it with a chaine vnto his saddle bow , that so the people might say , this is the hare which hee hath taken ; which opinion makes the dish to rellish the better : These Doctors could neuer yet catch any , but such like preyes as these : Shee surely is a Lady of honor , whose person & family I reuerence , yet she neuerthelesse , either to gratifie her husband , or els through simplicity , had willingly forsaken the truth before our conference : In which she was so farre from profiting any thing , that whilst it was a doing , she often professed that she did not listen to that which was said , nay more then this ; since that hath she written letters to my Lady of Liembrune her sister , where she speaks thus ; I was not in any manner in the world instructed , because the points , which Du Moulin proposed to bee discussed , were aboue the reach of my vnderstanding : A little after she saith , that when the conference was done , shee went to consult with Father Gontier , who shewed her all the Fathers of the first 600. yeares to bee on his side ; where as ( shee reports ) shee hath found true saluation , that heereupon she hath fixt her resolution .

But if Master Gontier behaued himselfe so manfully as hee sayes , without shewing how ; how comes it then to passe , that the Ladies there present were faine to excuse him to Monsieur de Liembrune , for bearing himselfe so dastardly in the fight , saying that he did this to comfort my Lady of Liembrune which wept ? why was I constrained to turne for him to a passage of Scripture which hee could not finde ? why did he stand so many times so long , together without speaking a word ? why ( he being at a non-plus , and not able to iustifie the authority of Bishops for the ordaining of sacrificing Priests ) was I forced to change my question , for to gratifie him ? why did hee withdraw himselfe out of my presence to hide himselfe in a corner ? why did hee blot out that which I had written ? why did he teare the papers which himselfe had written ? whereof I can yet for aneede produce some peeces : And note that he tooke mee vnawares then , when I thought of nothing lesse then conferring with him ; but hee came prepared and furnished with bookes hauing agreed on this conference before hand with the Ladies ; I am also giuen to vnderstand by the report of men worthy of credit , that a few daies after the conference , Gontier dining with my Lord the Prince of Conde , and my Lord the Duke of Espernon , that the Prince askt Gontier as concerning this matter , telling him there went a speech abroad thereof which tended little to his praise ; and that the sayd Iesuite imputed his little resistance to the great noise there was made : but especially to the earnest entreatie of an aduocate ; yet there was no aduocate nor anie stirre , but onelie towards the latter end , the three first houres being past ouer with a great silence , euerie one looking that Master Gontier should speake , whilst hee did nothing but turne the leaues of his Concordance , and made as though he did write .

Now to iustifie this which I speake to bee true , I call the assistants for witnesses which sate there from the beginning to the end , and God knowes that in the discourse which I haue published , I haue dealt as faithfully as I cold possible , hauing shew'd it ready writen to those which were present at it ; to the end that if I had forgotten my selfe in any thing , they should correct what was amisse ; yea I haue yet some part of Mr. Gontiers arguments written with his owne hand , of the which hee doth not so much as repeat one word in his letter ; wherein he reduces our conference to a douzen lines , not for breuities sake , for he breakes out into other vnprofitable discourses , but by an apparant shift : for in our conference there were two points aboue others that we chiefely handled : one , whether Bishops were authorized from God to establish Sacrificers for to sacrifice Iesus Christ : the other , whether it could possibly be prooued that Iesus Christ did offer vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist : because , that although his bloud were really shedde , yet it is not a sacrifice if the bloud be not offered vnto God .

These two points beeing of such importance , how comes it to passe that Mr. Gontier writing to the King , doth not satisfie them , nor so much as mention a word of them at all ? did he thinke his Maiesty vnworthy to be throughly informed in the truth of the matter ? or why doth he frustrate the people of this their expectation . And if in the conference hee had not a word to speake heereupon , why doth he not yet repaire his credit heerein by his writings vpon farther studie ? why is he so loth to speake anie more of the passage in Saint Cyprian , which is in the 9. Epist. of the first booke alleadged by my Ladie Baronnesse of Salignac , doth hee not perceiue by this that he hath spoken nothing worth the considering , but that a ladie hath spoken that which deserues to be weighed ? Nay , he shewes that he neuer read the place , seeing that he produceth it so disguised , and which is more , saies in the margent of his booke that this is the 66. chapter ; when Saint Cyprians Epistles are not distinguished by chapters ; doubtlesse my Ladie of Salignac , who hath ten times more learning for a Ladie , then he for a Doctor , could haue taken him vp for this : Saint Cyprian indeed speaks in the place alleadged , of alters and sacrifices , but by sacrifices he vnderstands the presents which the people offered on the table , of which one part was laid aside for the celebration of the Eucharist ; wherefore in his Sermon of almes he takes vp the rich men which men which came to receiue without offering anie sacrifice : Doest thou come ( saith he ) to the Lords Table without a sacrifice , doest thou take part of the sacrifice which the poore hath offered ? and in the same ninth Epistle , in the honour of the brethren which offer vp offrings , as if they did receiue the tithes of fruits , Let them not depart from the Altar , and sacrifices .

As concerning prayer for the dead , which began to be in vse in the time of Tertullian , and of which Saint Cypryan speakes in this Epistle , this is a praier which at this daie the Church of Rome doth allowe of no more then wee ; seeing that then they praied for the Saints and Martyrs , and that it shall neuer bee found that any one praied for the deliuerie of soules out of purgatorie , but onely for the enfranchisement of soules kept in prison , and sleeping in the bosome of peace , of which you haue a feeling in your masse , where the Priest praies in this manner for the dead : Lord thinke on thy seruants which sleepe in the bosome of peace ; Amongst the number of which the ancient Church doth reckon the Saints : who also as they thought in the next age to St. Cyprian , should bee purged by fire in the last day of iudgement , not exempting so much as the virgin Mary herselfe , as wee haue shewed by a great number of proofes in the last chapter of a booke entituled , The waters of Silo. Neuerthelesse Master Goutier least hee should haue nothing at all to say , doth accuse mee for denying our owne Bible ; How so ? because saith hee , that when he did alleadge these words vnto me , which is shed for vs , I said this was to be vnderstood in the future : A ridiculous calumnie : Rather on the contrary I say that our Bible doth turne the words more faithfully then that of the Church of Rome , seeing that it is in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is shed , and not shall bee shed , as the Bible of the Church of Rome and the masse haue it : But it is one thing to aske what is the best translation of the words of Iesus Christ , another thing to aske what is the meaning of the words ; for our translation onely is true : but the Romish Bible doth expound the meaning and intention of Iesus Christ , which is to promise that his bloud shall be shed for vs on the crosse , failing in the turning , but not in the drift of his words : as if when Iesus Christ saith , Ioh. 10. ver. 15. I lay downe my life for my sheepe , one should translate it thus , I will lay downe or leaue my life : hee indeed should lay downe the true meaning of his words , which although it were true , yet ought it not to be inserted in the text : Let this suffice for an answer to Master Gontiers letters , letters without sinewes , without ioynts , puft vp with a childishly affected kinde of swelling , which we do therfore here pricke to the end we might bring it downe . Had he no bodie to present them to , but his Maiestie . The Pagans in their sacrifices did neuer offer an Ape vnto their gods , but these men presume to offer apish to yes to so great a Prince , which holds the place of God among vs : who being wonderfull in his patience since he suffereth himselfe to be thus serued , is no lesse wonderfull in the clearenesse of his iudgement . For hee knowes well that , if his royall vertues were not aboue al enuie , and out of the danger of forgetfulnesse , they must needs lose some of their lustre by being mixt with the impurenesse of their pamphlets , as pearles that are wrapt in smoake : neither doth he like of these seditious preachers , which now preach in their Sermons before his Maiestie , that we hate dominion , & set al kind of gouernment at nought : for his Maiestie is not ignorant that this is so farre from being true , that on the contrary , this is the principall cause for which we are hated , to wit , because wee haue not taken on oath of allegeance to anie other then to the King , because we hold that the Pope cannot giue or take away realmes , nor dispense with subiects for the oath of fealty ; because wee teach that he should not haue heere anie other lawes , any other iudges , any other prisons , then those of the King , because that we shew that his realme is spoiled of siluer , which passeth ouer into Italy for the paiment of first fruits dispensations , absolutions , matrimoniall contracts &c. And that cousenage and tyrannie are established vnder the shew of religion . Finallie , because we complaine that the Pope makes Kings kisse his feete , and tramples on their Crownes : would wee but sticke to the Pope in these things , hee would easilie dispense with vs for our beleefe in the Gospell : or by a speciall priuiledge would permit vs to beleeue thereon , in the things which were not preiudiciall to his profit . Is there any one that can accuse the reformed Churches of rebellion or attempting ought against our Kings , or of conspiring to blow them vp with gun-powder , and yet to dare to preach this in the presence of his Maiesty : which reproach , the onely consideration , and manie proofes that he hath had of our fidelitie doe sufficiently confute : For that the Iesuites goe about to perswade him that we are rebellious , or ill-minded towards him , is all one as if Caiphas should defend Iesus Christ against his Apostles , or as if Catiline should accuse Cicero of sedition .

At the end of Master Gontiers Epistle there is a discourse annexed , subscribed with the name of Corbozon Mount-gommeri , which was not present at the conference , but saies that he heard of it at the Vicaridge of Saint Nicholas : This so honorable a name of Mount-gommeri doth vnhappily come to be written vnder so base a pamphlet , and I cannot beleeue , that so false and ridiculous peece of stuffe , should come from vnder the handes of a Gentleman of that honor as he is ; without doubt some paltry Iesuite composed this writing at his pleasure , which comes no more neere the truth of that which past betweene vs , then Ouid his Metamorphosis doth to that of the Gospell . And indeed , the recitall that Master Gontier hath made of our conference in his letter to the King , hath nothing like vnto this ; but Monsieur de Corbozon is willing to honor it , in couering it vnder his name , as with a cloake , which will scarce euer be brought him backe againe cleane : It would bee time lost to go about to confute this writing ; for if I should conuince the Author of absurditie , Master Gontier would renounce him as one that had written vpon false information , and so I should haue done as good as nothing . As for the defiance and threatnings of Master Gontier , we neuer yet refused vpon any occasion that was offered , to enter the lists vpon iust and equall termes ; But this people loues to set on men in corners , that they may a little after publish the contrary the more freely ; especially when they haue one in hand to deale withall which is alreadie conuerted ; and which hath promised to yeeld himselfe before the combat , only they make it deferre it a little , till the time they haue plotted a conference .

Now for to iustifie this which I say to be true , Master Gontier a few daies after all this adoe , ill befitting the grauitie of a Doctour , will not yet let mee scapeso , saying that he will enter in conference with me concerning the antiquitie of our Church ; and I meaning to enter the lists with him , haue at this time sent him a writing , of which this is the substance .

I maintaine that M. Gontier can not shew me in the foure first ages after Christ , any Church , or any man which held the same religion as the Church of Rome doth at this day : and for this purpose . 1 He should shew me any ancient Church that celebrated the Communion without Communicants , as they do ordinarily in the Church of Rome . 2 That he should shew me that any ancient Church did barre the people of the Communion of the cup. 3 Or that in any ancient Church , the common seruice was read in a tongue which the people vnderstood not . 4 Or that any ancient Church did forbid the people to read the holy Scriptures , as it is by no meanes permitted without a speciall priuiledge in the countries , where the Pope is absolute Commander . 5 Or that in any ancient Church there were euer made any images of God , and representation of the Trinitie in stone , or in painting . 6 Or that in any auncient Church the people were taught to pray without vnderstanding that which they said . 7 Or that any ancient Church did do seruice to the images of Creatures , in kissing them , in clothing them , by bowing themselues downe before them , and offring vp sacrifices vnto them . 8 Or that any ancient Church euer beleeued that the Virgine Mary is crowned Queene of heauen , and Empresse of the world , as it is painted throughout all their Churches . 9 Or that any ancient Church did assigne diuers offices to Saints ; to one ouer this Country , to another ouer that , to one ouer this sicknesse , to another ouer that , to one ouer this trade &c. 10 Or that any ancient Church did euer beleeue that the Pope could giue and take away realmes , and free subiects from their oath of allegeance , canonize Saints , dispense with vowes and promises made vnto God . 11 Or that in the ancient Church , the Pope by his pardons did distribute the superabundant satisfactions of the Saints , for the remission of the punishment of the sinnes of others . 12 Or that the Pope did then lay his pardons on one Church and not on another , on one village and not on another , and this sometimes for one hundred and two hundred yeares of true pardon . 13 Or that the ancient Church did beleeue a Lymbus of little infants . 14 Or that the ancient Church did euer adore the host , which the Priest holds , with diuine worship , and that this is the cause , why the Priest doth vse to hold vp the host in the Masse . 15 Or that the bookes of the Machabees were held for Canonicall in the ancient Church . 16 Or that the ancient Church did beleeue that the Bishop of Rome could not erre in the faith . 17 Or that the ancient Church did beleeue that Iesus Christ by his death and suffering did indeed discharge vs from the punishment of sinne before baptisme , but as for the punishment of sinne committed after baptisme , he hath changed it from eternall , vnto temporall , and that it lies vs vpon to satisfie the iustice of God for this .

That Master Gontier should tell vs , if in these points he will admit of the Fathers for iudges , we will aske but halfe a douzen cleare passages vpon euery point .

FINIS .